1



### Environmental Protection Agency 1

2

3

4

5


### Public Hearing on 6



### Proposed Clean Power Plan for 7


### Existing Power Plants 8

9

10

11



### 9:01 a.m. to 6:47 p.m. 12



### Wednesday, July 30, 2014 13

14



### Room 1153 A 15


### William Jefferson Clinton East Building 16



### 1201 Constitution Avenue Northwest 17


### Washing ton, D.C. 20004 18

19

20

21

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### EPA PANEL 1: 1



### SARAH DUNHAM, Panel 1 Chair; EPA 2



### AMY VASU, EPA 3



### ERICH ESCHMANN, EPA 4

5



### EPA PANEL 2: 6



### STEVE PAGE, Panel 2 Chair; Director of the Office 7


### of Air Quality Planning and Standards, EPA 8


### DAVID SOLOMON, Office of Air Quality Plannin g 9



### Standards, EPA 10


### CHRIS SHERRY, Office of Atmospheric Programs, EPA 11

12



### EPA PANEL 3: 13



### STEVE PAGE, Panel 3 Chair; Director of the Office 14


### of Air Quality Planning and Standards, EPA 15



### GABRIELLE STEVENS, Environmental Scientist, 16


### Office of Atmospheric Programs 17


### BETH CONLIN, Environmental Protection Specialist, 18


### Office of Atmospheric Programs 19

20

21

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### C O N T E N T S 1



### PAGE 2



### LEE LARSON 14 3



### KAREN HARBERT , President Institute for 21st 19 4



### Century Energy at U.S. Chamber of Commerce 5



### HOWARD FELDMAN , American Petroleum I nstitute 24 6



### AUGUSTA WILSON , Attorney Clean Air Council 30 7



### MICHALENE REILLY , Hoosier Energy Rural 35 8


### Electric Cooperative 9



### CHRISTOPHER VANDEVENTER , Basin Electric 39 10


### Power Cooperative 11



### SENATOR BENJAMIN CARDIN 45 12



### LIZ PERERA , Resident of Maryland 4 9 13



### LON HUBER , Arizona Residential Utility 55 14



### Consumer Office 15



### THERESA PUGH , American Public Power Assoc

. 60 16



### SETH HEALD , Resident of Virginia 65 17



### SENATOR MITCH MCCONNELL 69 18



### JIMMY ROSE , Resident of Kentucky 75 19



### BILL BISSETT , President Kentucky Co al 78 20


### Association and Organization 21



### PAUL FAETH , Institute for Public Research 85 22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### JULIE HANTMAN , Moms Clean Air Force 91 3



### ROSALYN HANTMAN , United States Citizen 95 4



### ALAN HANTMAN , United States Citizen 95 5



### JOHN TAYLOR , United States Citizen 100 6



### THOMAS HELLER , Missouri River Energy Svc 105 7



### RICHARD CAPERTON , OPower 109 8



### TOBY SHORT , Duke Energy Corporation 115 9



### THOMAS EASTERLY , Indiana Department 118 10



### o f Environmental Management 11



### TARA PASCAROSA

- DUFF , Resident of Virginia 123 12



### LINDA BURCHFIEL , United States Citizen 125 13



### KAREN MELTON , Chester County Citizens 130 14



### for Climate Protection 15



### JACK SEARS , Student Colby College 134 16



### JANIE WISE , Orma t Technologies 139 17



### CHARLES YODER , United States Citizen 142 18



### JULIAN BOGGS , Environment America 146 19



### SHELLEY VINYARD , Environment America 150 20



### SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS 154 21



### TOM CARLSON , Advanced Energy Economy 169 22

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### C O N T E N T S (co ntinued) 1



### PAGE 2



### ZABRINA ARNOVITZ 17 5 3



### JAMES DUFFY , Clean Air Task Force 176 4



### HERB SIMMENS , Resident Washington, D.C. 182 5



### ALEX TREBATOSKI , Student at College of 185 6



### St. Benedict and St. John's Un iversity 7



### MARY FEEHERRY , Resident of D.C. 191 8



### WILLIAM ROSENOW , United States Citizen 195 9



### ERIN HODGE , Student at Boston College 200 10



### NICOLE BRODER , College of William and Mary 202 11



### SAMANTHA DUTHE , Student at Niagara University 206 12



### ROBERT JAGUSC H , Minnesota Municipal 209 13



### Utilities Association 14



### JENNIFER KEFER , Alliance for Industrial 216 15


### Efficiency 16



### MONIQUE HANIS , Resident of Arlington, VA 222 17



### DAVID CASH , Massachusetts Department of 227 18



### Environmental Protection 19



### JEREMY RICHARDSON , U nion of Concerned 234 20



### Scientists 21

22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### LAUREN SHINABERRY , 240 3


### Student at University of Michigan Dearborn 4



### JESSICA JONES , United States Citizen 245 5



### W ILLIAM PENNIMAN , Resident of Virginia 248 6



### ALAN LOEB, Attorney 2 54 7



### KARA RINALDI , Home Performance Coalition 260 8



### FLOYD GILZOW , Missouri Joint Municipal 267 9


### Utility Commission 10



### STEFAN BOGDANOVIC , Sierra Club 272 11



### MICHAEL HORNSBY , Residen t of New Jersey 276 12



### BERNADETTE LEMASTERS , Graduate Student, 277 13


### George Mason University 14



### NATALIE PIEN , Resident of Leesburg, Virginia 282 15



### ANDREA MCGIMSEY , Climate Reality Project 289 16



### KENNETH WARD , Resident Corbett, Oregon 293 17



### RACHEL ROGIER , Arch Coal 299 18



### SENATOR JOE MANCHIN 306 19



### TOM BURACK , New Hampshire Department of 315 20



### Environmental Services 21



### CRAIG SEGALL , California Air Resources Board 321 22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### LUCA S NIEWENHUIS 327 3



### ERICA MITRANO , Student in Arlington, VA 331 4



### BRYAN BANKS, American Lung Association 333 5



### BRENNA MULLER , United States Citizen 337 6



### EMILY LANDE , National Wildlife Federation 343 7



### JIM DOUGHERTY , Resident of Washington 348 8


### NIASIA ELLIS, Student, Open High School, 354 9


### Richmond Virginia 10



### SANAA SLEDGE , Student, Baker Elementary
, 357 11


### Richmond, Virginia 12



### MOLLY SIMON , National Wildlife Federation 359 13



### PHILO COLLINS , Resident of Washington, D.C. 371 14



### JEFF SAXE , Rabi, T emple Rode of Shalom 376 15



### BRAD BICKFORD , Resident of Washington, D.C. 380 16



### DEREK MEYER , Resident of Alexandria, Virginia 384 17



### JOSE DEARTEAGA , Resident of Washington, D.C. 388 18



### ELIZABETH MONSEU , American Coal Council 395 19



### LAURA KATE BENDER , American Lu ng Association 400 20

21

22

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### P R O C E E D I N G S 1



### MS. DUNHAM: All right. Good morning. 2



### I think we're going to get started here, try to 3


### start relatively on time. 4


### All right. My name is Sarah Dunham, and 5


### I am one of the chairs of today's public hearing. 6


### Thank you all for coming today. 7


### Joining me on the panel this morning are 8


### Amy Vasu to my right, and Erich Eschman to my 9


### left. We're here today to listen to your 10



### comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 11


### pollution from power plants. EPA announced bot h 12



### of these proposed rules on June 2nd, 2014. 13



### Power plants are the largest source of 14


### carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 15


### roughly one third of all domestic greenhouse gas 16


### emissions. The first rule is the EPA's proposed 17


### clean power plan for existing power plants. This 18


### proposal consists of two main parts; state

19


### specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 20


### power plants, and guidelines to help states 21


### develop their plans for meeting the goals. 22

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### This proposal gives states flexibility in 1


### determining how to meet their goals. States will 2


### choose what goes into their plans that show how 3


### they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 4


### their goals by 2030. 5


### The second rule is the EPA's proposed 6



### rule to address carbon dioxide emissions from 7



### modified and reconst ructed power plants. This 8



### rule would set the mission's limits for two 9


### groups of power plants; those that make physical 10


### or operational changes that increase the plant's 11


### maximum achievable hourly rate of emissions, and 12



### those that replace components to such an extent 13



### that the new components exceed 50 percent of the 14


### capital cost of an entirely new comparable 15


### facility. 16


### If you would like more details on either 17



### of these proposed rules there are fact sheets 18


### available near the registration desk. 19


### Today's hearing is one of four public 20


### hearings across the country this week on the two 21


### proposed rules. We've had tremendous interest in 22

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### each of the hearings and I'd like to thank you 1


### for taking the time out of your day today to join 2



### us and share your comments. 3



### We have a lo t of people signed up to 4



### speak today and we want to hear from all of them. 5


### So before we get started I'd like to go through a 6


### few housekeeping items and ground rules that will 7


### help make today's hearing run smoothly. 8


### First, please be sure you have checked i n 9


### at the registration desk, even if you are not 10


### planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 11


### speak online or by phone but haven't told us that 12


### you're here, please step up to the registration 13



### desk and let the EPA staff know that you've 14



### arrived. 15



### Second, if you are a speaker you were 16


### given a room letter when you checked in; Room A 17


### or Room B. This is Room A. Hopefully you're in 18


### the right room, and if not, this is a good time 19



### to switch. 20


### All right. Here's how today's hearing 21


### will work. I will call speak ers up in pairs. 22

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### When your name is called please come to the table 1



### at the front of the room. When I call on you to 2


### speak please state your name and spell it for the 3


### court reporter. Your comments will be 4



### transcribed and included in the record of 5



### comments on the proposed rule. 6


### Each speaker will have five minutes to 7


### give comments. We have a light to help you know 8


### how much time you have left to speak. When the 9


### light turns from green to yellow that means you 10


### have one minute remaining. And when it turns red 11


### that's a signal to wrap up your testimony. The 12


### light will flash red and beep when you have 13


### spoken for five minutes and it is time to stop. 14


### When you are finished speaking please 15


### remain at the table until the person next to you 16


### has completed his or her tes timony. We are here 17


### to listen to you today, however a panel member 18


### may ask you questions to clarify your comments. I 19


### will then call up the next pair of speakers and 20



### so on. 21


### If you have brought a written copy of 22

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### your testimony please give that to the staff at 1


### the registration desk before you leave today. 2



### Because of the large number of people who 3


### have signed up to speak today and to be fair to 4


### everyone we are going to have to strictly enforce 5


### the five minute limit. If you have additional 6



### comments you would l ike to make you can submit 7


### them in writing. 8


### Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 9



### much consideration to comments we receive in 10


### writing as we do to comments we receive at public 11


### hearings like this one. So if you have more that 12


### you would like to say, ple ase submit it. Your 13



### comments will be reviewed. 14


### There's still plenty of time to get 15



### written comments in and there are comment cards 16


### available at the registration desk. Comments 17


### must be received by October 16th, 2014. We will 18


### put any written comments subm itted today on the 19


### official docket for the proposed rule. 20


### Instructions for submitting written 21


### comments in other ways are available at the 22

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### materials table near the registration desk. 1


### We're scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 2


### tonight and we'll take a lunch and dinner break 3


### so everyone can get something to eat. Right now 4



### the lunch break is scheduled for noon and the 5



### dinner break is scheduled for 5:00. 6


### In addition we may take occasional short 7



### breaks throughout the day as needed. We'll keep 8



### you posted as the d ay goes on. If you have any 9


### questions during the day, please see the staff at 10


### the registration desk and someone will try to 11



### help you. 12


### Finally, I want to ask each of you to 13



### please be respectful of everyone who speaks 14


### today. We have people with a wide vari ety of 15



### views in the audience and we want to hear from 16


### all of you. So we can do that and to be fair to 17


### everyone we ask that everyone listen quietly

. 18



### Even applause can slow things down and we want to 19


### hear from everyone who has signed up to speak. 20



### Thank you again for taking the time today 21



### to share your comments on EPA's proposed rules. 22

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### Now, let's get started. 1


### So our first two speakers will be Lee 2



### Larson and Karen Harbert. If you could please 3



### come up to the front table. We'll start with Mr. 4



### Larson. Thank you very much. 5



### MR. LARSON: Great. Thanks so much. 6


### Good morning. My name is Lee Larson, it's L

- E

- E 7



### L

- A

- R

- S

- O

- N. And first of all I'd like to thank 8


### you all for giving me the opportunity to come 9


### here and give comments. 10



### I'm here today to talk about how gl obal 11


### warming has impacted my life and why limiting 12



### greenhouse gasses is a necessary step in 13


### protecting the health and well

- being of this 14



### nation in the future. 15


### So just last week the City Council of 16


### South Portland in my home state of Maine, banned 17



### the export ation of Canadian tar sands oil from a 18



### waterfront terminal. 19


### I spent the last three summers working on 20


### that same waterfront, teaching kids the basic 21


### concepts of marine biology and the importance of 22

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### ecological conservation. Exporting tar sands oil 1



### from Port land would have required the 2



### construction of two 70 foot tall smokestacks 3


### adjacent to the summer camp where I worked, and 4


### practically on the campus of Southern Maine 5


### Community College. 6



### Maine residents don't need these threats 7


### to the quality of our air, and our fragile 8


### coastline can do without the risk of pollution in 9


### the future. Widespread resistance to this 10


### project in Maine illustrates the public 11


### opposition to air pollution and indicates that we 12


### are ready to clean up dirty power plants as well. 13



### Americans around the country are 14


### recognizing the dangers that greenhouse gasses 15


### pose to our environment, economy, and quality of 16


### life, setting targets for the limitation of 17


### carbon emission shows a strong commitment to 18


### solving the problems of climate change. It also 19


### addresses the many public health problems that 20


### air pollution causes from dangerously hot summers 21


### to respiratory illnesses in children. My 22

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### brother, Will, has asthma, just for one example. 1


### And I've also experienced the negative 2



### effects of a fossil fuel bas ed utilities 3


### industry. I go to college in North Carolina and 4


### a popular weekend activity for students is tubing 5



### down the Dan River. 6



### Last February, as I'm sure you know, Duke 7


### Energy spilled millions of gallons of coal ash 8


### sludge into the river. Coal ash is the 9



### detritions that remains after burning coal to 10


### produce electricity. And it contains numerous 11


### toxic substances such as arsenic, mercury, and 12



### lead. The river is still not safe to fish or 13


### swim in, and Duke Energy has only removed about 14



### 2,500 of the 39 ,000 tons of coal ash that 15


### contaminated the waterway. Drinking supplies 16


### were threatened and the impact on wildlife is 17


### still being assessed. 18


### This spill, and others like it, emphasize 19


### the wide array of threats that greenhouse gas 20


### emitters pose to our heal th. 21


### These two stories show why I support the 22

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### EPA finalizing its Clean Power Plan. Power 1



### plants are the number one source of carbon 2


### dioxide that causes global warming. 3


### In Maine, they're responsible for as much 4


### pollution as half a million cars, and they 5



### produce 40 percent of U.S. greenhouse gas 6


### emissions overall. Maine, along with eight other 7



### Northeastern states has already begun to address 8


### this problem with the nation's First Cap and 9


### Trade Program for limiting emissions and 10


### investing in renewable energ y. 11


### And since 2007, the Regional Greenhouse 12


### Gas Initiative has reinvested $27 million into 13


### energy efficiency programs while saving Maine 14


### consumers $120 million and creating hundreds of 15


### jobs. So for those who say that this rule harm 16


### the economy and hurt j obs, I'd like to point to 17


### that example, you know, as something that negates 18



### that. 19



### It's time to ensure that all of America 20


### can enjoy these similar benefits. The Clean 21


### Power Plan is a great first step in reducing our 22

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### reliance on outdated, dangerous, and d irty fossil 1



### fuels. 2


### Renewable methods of producing energy are 3


### becoming more viable as the technology develops. 4


### For instance, wind power already produces enough 5


### electricity to power 15 million homes. And last 6


### year a building went solar every four minutes

. 7


### Developing federal standards for limiting 8


### carbon pollution will help to protect America 9


### from the most dangerous impacts of climate change 10



### in the future, like sea level rise, heat waves
, 11


### extreme drought, storms, wildfires like we're 12


### seeing out west right now. It will also help 13


### reduce pollution and make our cities cleaner and 14



### our lives healthier. 15


### This plan demonstrates America's 16


### willingness to fight climate change and sends a 17



### strong message to the rest of the world that we 18


### are ready to lead on this issue. I'd like to 19


### urge the EPA to finalize its Clean Power Plan and 20



### start this nation on the road to a brighter and 21



### more sustainable future. 22

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### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. 1



### MS. HARBERT: Do you have to reset the 2



### clock or no? I'll take the extra time. That 's 3



### okay. 4



### Thank you. I'm Karen Harbert, K

- A

- R

- E

- N 5



### H

- A

- R

- B

- E

- R

- T, President and CEO at the institute 6



### for 21st Century Energy at the U.S. Chamber of 7


### Commerce, the world's largest business federation 8


### representing over 3 million businesses. 9



### The Chamber has l ong been clear in its 10



### view that the Clean Air Act is not the 11


### appropriate vehicle to regulate greenhouse gasses 12


### and is poorly designed for such a task. We 13


### believe EPA's proposed rule is fundamentally 14



### inconsistent with numerous practical, technical, 15



### and leg al aspects of America's electrical system. 16


### It is clear that this rule will require a 17


### significant redesign and transformation of 18


### America's entire electricity system, including 19


### generation, transmission, distribution, and use. 20


### While a comprehensive study of the 21


### electric sector and broader economic impacts of 22

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### this rule is necessary, it is clear it will 1


### impact every American family and business. And I 2


### want to highlight some of our concerns. 3


### EPA's proposal will have clear 4


### implications to the American jobs and e conomy. 5



### EPA itself estimates that its rule will increase 6


### electricity prices between six and seven percent 7


### nationally by 2020, and up to 12 percent in some 8


### locations. This is on top of the 13 percent 9


### increase already forecast by EAA over the same 10


### time per iod. 11


### EPA also estimates that compliance costs 12


### will be between $5.4 and $7.4 billion in 2020, 13


### rising to $8.8 billion by 2030. 14


### It is important to note that these 15


### compliance costs are for the power sector only 16


### and do not capture the spill

- over effects on th e 17


### rest of the economy. Even if these cost 18



### estimates were accurate, these increases will 19


### place an immense burden on U.S. businesses and 20


### could eliminate the comparative competitive 21


### advantage we are enjoying by affordable 22

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### electricity prices. In fact the Uni ted Mine 1



### Workers have estimated that 187 indirect and 2


### direct jobs will be lost in the utility, rail, 3


### and coal industry, and labor income will be lost 4


### of $208 billion by 2035. 5


### On flexibility EPA has emphasized that 6


### this the cornerstone of its proposal. But the 7


### building blocks that comprise this foundation 8


### actually increase the stringency rather than 9



### assist states with compliance efforts. 10


### Specifically by incorporating reduction 11


### measures beyond the effective sources, EPA was 12


### able to tighten stat targets subs tantially. If 13



### the emission reductions called for from one 14


### building block are not met, they must be made up 15


### for with even greater reductions in another 16


### building block. 17



### Because the targets were set at 18


### aggressive levels, there is little wiggle room 19



### for the se options. And as a result, unless EPA 20


### incorporates true flexibility into the rule we 21


### expect states to encounter major compliance 22

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### challenges. 1


### Perhaps most troubling, the Agency's 2


### emissions limitations on individual states vary 3


### widely and are based on com plex and detailed 4


### assumptions that may not reflect reality, what is 5



### achievable, or even what is within EPA's 6


### authority to regulate. 7


### In order for this to be fully evaluated, 8


### EPA must better explain and disclose the 9


### underlying assumptions and data that serve as the 10


### foundation for these binding targets. EPA has 11


### failed to date to address these issues, provided 12


### little to no information regarding what authority 13


### it was relying upon to institute such outside the 14


### fence expansive regulatory targets, nor how it 15



### inten ds to proceed if it does not approve of 16


### individual state implementation plans. 17



### As stakeholders continue to evaluate the 18



### 1,600 pages of regulatory text, EPA should hold 19


### additional public hearings to enable a greater 20


### number of citizens representing a broader range 21


### of viewpoints and geographical locations to 22

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### provide input. 1


### Perhaps most importantly we ask that at 2


### least some component of these public meetings be 3



### interactive so that stakeholders can ask EPA 4


### questions and get answers regarding the rule. 5



### And finall y we ask EPA to extend the 120 6


### day comment period by at least 60 days to ensure 7



### that we have sufficient time to assess this 8


### complex rule, and also consider the feedback 9


### provided at these public hearings. 10


### Beyond our technical concerns, beyond 11


### electricity ra te impacts, were liability concerns 12


### and state disparities, EPA's proposal suffers one 13


### overarching and inescapable flaw, it's failure to 14


### meaningfully address its expressed purpose for 15


### being, reductions in Co2 emissions. 16



### The EPA estimates that in 2030 its 17


### proposed rule would reduce Co2 emissions 555 18


### metric tons below current projects, which 19


### represents a 1.3 reduction in global emissions in 20


### 2030. Because non US Co2 emissions are expected 21


### to grow by 41 percent, EPA's proposed rule will 22

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### offset the equivalent of 13.5 days of Chinese 1



### emissions in 2030. 2



### Senior Administration officials have 3


### publically emphasized that absent similar actions 4


### by other major economies; U.S. regulations to 5



### reduce carbon emissions will not succeed, and in 6


### fact would simply result in m oving emissions to 7


### other countries that have not implemented similar 8



### restrictions. 9


### So in sum, EPA must provide more time, 10


### more opportunity for input, more transparency, 11


### and a fair process. T hank you. 12



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Thank 13


### you to our fir st speakers. I would call our next 14


### two speakers, Howard Feldman and august Wilson to 15


### the table up here, please. And just a brief 16


### reminder, when you start your remarks if you 17


### could state your name and spell it for the court 18



### reporter. 19



### Mr. Feldman. 20



### MR. FE LDMAN: Okay. Good morning. My 21


### name is Howard J. Feldman, and I'm speaking today 22

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### on behalf of the American Petroleum Institute. 1


### API represents over 600 oil and gas 2



### natural

-- oil and natural gas companies, leaders 3


### of a technology driven industry that s upplies 4


### most of America's energy, supports more than 9.8 5


### million jobs and 8 percent of the U.S. economy. 6


### And since 2000 has invested nearly $2 7


### trillion in U.S. capital projects to advance all 8


### forms of energy, including alternatives. 9


### Our members recognize the responsibility 10



### to work with the public , the government, and 11


### others to developing and using natural resources 12


### and an environmentally sound manner while 13


### protecting the health and safety of our employees 14


### and the public. 15


### Many of our members will be direct ly 16


### impacted by these proposed new source performance 17


### standards. I have three key points I'd like to 18



### make today. 19


### One, our industry is doing its part to 20



### contribute to the reduction in carbon dioxide 21



### emissions through the increased production of 22

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### clean natu ral gas. 1


### Two, this rule is problematic. It 2


### threatens our industry's international 3


### competitiveness due to higher energy costs. 4


### Three, we have specific concerns with the 5


### proposal and the precedence it sets. Among our 6



### concerns is EPA's approach to base the state's 7


### target reductions on the use of outside the fence 8


### reductions and the possible imposition of 9


### reduction requirements on non EGU facilities. 10



### Furthermore the rulemaking and the 11



### related 111B rulemaking need to be modified to 12


### avoid adversely impacting th e use of co

13


### generation and industrial facilities. 14


### Going to my first point, as you are 15


### probably aware, America's energy revolution has 16



### changed the global landscape thanks to 17


### innovations in the oil and gas industry, 18


### particularly hydraulic fracturing and hori zontal 19


### drilling, America is now the number one producer 20


### of natural gas in the world, and is on course to 21


### become the number one producer of oil as well. 22

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### Market driven forces are helping us to 1


### use these fuels efficiently. And with the growth 2



### of natural gas U.S. carbon dioxide emissions are 3


### now near 20 year lows without job

- destroying 4


### regulations. 5


### But America's success as an energy 6



### superpower depends on an all of the above energy 7


### strategy where new rules are designed to 8


### compliment, not strangle the renaiss ance America 9


### is experiencing thanks to new energy production. 10


### My second point, this rulemaking is 11


### problematic. Unfortunately the proposed EPA rule 12


### ignores the successful example of our free market 13



### and guarantees adverse consequences for nearly 14



### every consu mer and business in the U.S. 15


### American refineries, for example, have 16


### been a tremendous bright spot in the U.S. 17


### economy, but energy is the second largest cost 18


### associated with operating a competitive refinery. 19


### Given the potential impact of the rule on 20



### elec tricity prices businesses like these will 21



### have no choice but to reevaluate new investments 22

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### based on electricity sources that are less 1



### affordable and less secure. 2


### The uncertainty caused by this rule could 3


### have a chilling effect on investments throughout 4



### the manufacturing section, potentially costing 5


### millions of jobs and damaging all aspects of our 6


### economy. Moreover, by eliminating diversity in 7


### our fuel choices this creates the potential for a 8


### future electricity shortages and price spikes 9



### that would do the g reatest harm to those who can 10



### least afford it, hardworking American consumers. 11


### My third point; we have specific concerns 12


### regarding the proposal and the precedence it 13



### sets. EPA's proposed approach to set state

14


### specific emissions reductions goals, based on an 15


### analysis that takes into account emissions 16



### reductions that occur outside the fence line of 17



### the fossil fuel EGU that is subject to proposed 18


### regulation. 19



### EPA's reliance on these outside the fence 20


### line options dramatically expands the scope of 21



### the best syst em of emission reductions, beyond 22

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### the fossil fuel EGUs subject to regulation , and 1


### exceeds the scope of EPA's authority under the 2



### Clean Air Act. 3



### Furthermore we think that the final rule 4



### should indicate, explicitly , that EPA and states 5



### do not have the lega l authority to require 6



### emissions reductions outside the EGU sector. 7



### Furthermore , the intent of the rule is to 8


### target the power sector, not to bring in 9



### unintended industries. The final rule should be 10


### crafted to clearly and transparently articulate 11



### the sec tor targeted and should exempt industrial 12



### co

- generation. Combined heat and power 13


### facilities capture and utilize heat that would 14


### otherwise be wasted from the production of 15


### electricity. Therefore they require less fuel 16



### than an equivalent separate heat and power 17



### systems to produce the same amount of 18


### electricity. By using less fuel CHPs reduce 19


### emissions of air pollutants and emit 20


### significantly less Co2 emissions than 21



### conventional boilers. 22

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### The 111B Rule needs to be finalized to 1


### avoid bringing these industri al combined heat and 2


### power facilities under that rule and this 111D 3


### rulemaking needs to reflect that as well. 4


### In closing API appreciates the 5


### opportunity to provide this testimony on this 6


### important rulemaking for our industry. We will 7


### be submitting detaile d comments to the docket to 8


### amplify on these points and a host of other 9


### issues raised in the proposed rulemaking. Thank 10



### you. 11


### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you. Ms. Wilson. 12


### MR. WILSON: Good morning. Thank you. 13


### My name is Augusta Wilson. It's A

- G

- U

- S

- T

- A, 14



### last na me is W

- I

- L

- S

- O

- N, and I am a staff 15



### attorney at the Clean Air Council. 16


### The Council is a nonprofit organization 17


### headquartered in Philadelphia that has been 18


### working since 1967 to carry out our mission of 19


### protecting everyone's right to breath clean air. 20



### And I thank you for the opportunity to speak with 21



### you today. 22

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### The Council applauds EPA for its issuance 1


### of its performance standards for existing sources 2


### of carbon pollution. As it prepares to finalize 3


### the rule the Council urges EPA to consider the 4


### following. 5



### The proposed rule allows states a 6


### significant amount of flexibility in how they go 7


### about achieving their required reductions. While 8


### this flexibility is necessary for effective and 9


### efficient implementation of the ruling each sate, 10


### it has the potential nega tive side effect of 11


### allowing some states to take the easy way out. 12


### For example, Pennsylvania, where we're 13


### headquartered, has already seen reductions in 14


### carbon emissions over the past several years as a 15


### result of significant development of the state's 16



### sha le gas resources. This is because the 17


### combustion of natural gas, which is mostly 18


### methane, produces less carbon dioxide than does 19


### the combustion of coal, and Pennsylvania's energy 20


### sector has experienced a significant shift from 21


### coal to natural gas since th e extraction of 22

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### Marcellus shale gas began in earnest. 1


### Natural gas, however is also a fossil 2


### fuel and presents the problem of substantial 3


### fugitive methane emissions throughout its life 4


### cycle. Methane itself is a highly potent 5


### greenhouse gas, often estimate d to be more than 6


### 30 times more potent than carbon dioxide over a 7


### 100 year timeframe, and close to 100 times more 8


### potent over a 20 year timeframe. 9


### Thus a clean energy plan, by under which 10


### states meet their carbon reduction requirements 11


### simply by switchin g wholesale to natural gas will 12


### not represent true progress in the fight against 13


### global warming. Rather we must make substantial 14


### investments in energy efficiency measures and 15



### renewable energy resources and reduce all our 16



### fossil fuel use. 17


### The potential for energy efficiency to 18


### reduce energy demand and avoid carbon dioxide 19



### emission as well as methane emissions is now well 20


### established. For example a 2010 report by the 21


### National Academy of Scientists found that at 25 22

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### to 30 percent energy savings for the buildi ng 1



### sector as a whole could be achieved over the next 2


### 20 to 25 years through energy efficiency measures 3


### alone at a cost of just 2.7 cents per kilowatt 4


### hours saved. The whole building retrofits and 5


### advanced building design could result in even 6


### more signific ant energy savings. 7



### Environmental advocates, including the 8


### Clean Air Council, where I work, will push to 9


### ensure that the implementation plan that 10


### Pennsylvania submits to EPA ultimately will allow 11


### for and incentivize energy efficiency measures 12



### and renewable energy sources as a substantial 13


### part of the means by which Pennsylvania will meet 14


### its carbon reduction requirements. 15


### One of the challenges in such an effort, 16


### however, is the difficulty of adequately and 17


### accurately quantifying reductions in carbon 18



### emission s achieved by energy efficiency measures 19



### and rene w ables. 20



### EPA could aid these efforts by including 21



### in the final rule, standards and methods that 22

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### states can use to measure and verify energy 1


### savings and emission reductions achieved through 2



### such means. 3



### The gr oundwork has already been laid. 4



### Over recent decades at least 14 states have 5


### developed protocols for quantifying such energy 6


### savings. However, these practices continue to 7


### vary widely from state to state, and among 8



### utilities

. 9


### Clear guidelines from EPA se tting out 10


### best practices and standardized protocols for 11



### such accounting could make it much easier for 12


### states to include energy efficiency programs and 13


### renewable energy sources in their implementation 14



### plans. 15


### If the final rule does not ultimately 16



### contain s uch a framework the Council would urge 17


### EPA at a minimum to closely review each state's 18



### proposed implementation plan to ensure that it 19


### does contain a clear and justifiable mechanism 20


### for adequately accounting for energy savings from 21


### energy efficiency measure s and use of renewable 22

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### energy resources. 1


### Climate change caused by carbon pollution 2


### is an extremely pressing threat to human health. 3


### The Clean Air Council applauds EPA's efforts to 4


### develop a strong rule under Section 111D of the 5


### Clean Air Act to regulate c arbon emissions from 6


### such facilities and urges EPA to maintain and 7


### increase the strength of its rule as it is 8



### finalized. 9



### Thank you very much. 10



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Thank 11


### you. Our next two speakers will be Michalene 12


### Reilly and Christopher Vand eventer. If you could 13



### come up to the speaker's table, please? 14


### Thank you very much. Ms. Reilly you can 15


### go first. 16


### MS. REILLY: Okay. My name is Michalene 17


### Reilly, Manager of Environmental Services for 18


### Hoosier Energy Rural Electric Cooperative, a 19


### generati on in transmission cooperative with 20



### members in 59 counties in Central and Southern 21



### Indiana and Southeastern Illinois. 22

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### Being a member

- driven cooperative our 1


### mission is to provide reliable low

- cost power in 2


### a safe and environmentally acceptable manner. We 3


### appreciate this opportunity to provide comments 4



### on the proposed rule to regulate greenhouse 5


### gasses from existing power plants. 6


### Hoosier Energy is concerned with many 7


### aspects of the rule. Today I will cover just one 8


### of those concerns, the four building bl ocks. 9



### More extensive comments will be filed at the end 10


### of the comment period. 11


### Power plant energy efficiency. EPA's 12


### contention that power plants have the ability to 13


### decrease their heat rate and therefore improve 14


### plant efficiency by 6 percent is a concern. In 15


### talking to many utilities about this issue we 16


### have not heard of a single plant that could 17


### achieve anything more than one to two percent, 18



### and at a tremendous cost. 19


### The efficiency increase that are cost

20


### effective have already been made. It should be 21



### n oted that a plant such as Hoosier Energy's Merom 22

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### generating station, approximately 56 percent of 1


### the power that is auxiliary power, is used for 2


### pollution control equipment. 3


### Natural gas combined cycle facilities. 4



### As you may

-- as many utilities , Hoosier Energy 5


### has found natural gas unavailable in times of 6



### extreme weather and under other conditions. This 7


### has happened both at combined cycle and peaking 8


### facilities. Unfortunately setting a goal does 9



### not diminish the issue of inadequate pipelines 10



### and storage facilities. Electric utilities like 11



### Hoosier Energy have no control over the lack of 12


### natural gas infrastructure. 13



### EPA must examine these constraints and 14


### adjust the goal for states that cannot be assured 15


### gas availability. Many combined cycle facilities 16



### we re not built to run at such a high capacity 17



### factor. The constraints of those units 18



### themselves must be considered. 19


### Renewable energy. Hoosier Energy is 20


### concerned with statements made by many top 21



### personnel from EPA that this rule is meant to be 22

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### flexible, ye t each speech seems to narrow the 1


### interpretation of what is included in the 2


### building blocks. 3


### EPA should be promoting every possible 4


### way of allowing for greenhouse gas emissions and 5



### offsets should be included. The renewables 6


### portion should include all ty pes of new 7


### renewables including small hydro, landfill, and 8


### coal bed methane, as well as allowing for 9



### offsets. 10



### It has been proven that offsets such as 11


### increased forestry can utilize some of the Co2 12


### being generated, allowing for power plants to 13



### continue to o perate for the remainder of their 14



### useful life. 15


### Demand side management and energy 16


### efficiency. One way to reduce greenhouse gas 17


### emissions is to not to generate them. However, 18



### demand side management and energy efficiency take 19


### agreements on both sides of t he equation; both 20


### the utility and the consumer. 21


### Hoosier offers many incentives, both for 22

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### demand side management and energy efficiency 1


### without any mandate from the State of Indiana. 2


### However, even with subsidies and incentives you 3



### cannot force homeowners t o take advantage of 4


### these offers and raising power prices so high 5


### that people would be forced into it is not 6


### equitable for low income rural communities, or 7



### for the commercial and industrial consumers 8



### served by our members. 9


### In a not for profit cooperative t he cost 10


### of every incentive is spread across all the 11



### member consumers. EPA must look for other 12



### incentives that can work for low income retail 13


### consumers and not unfairly punish others. 14


### We would request that EPA work with us to 15



### develop cost

- effective ways t o reduce carbon 16


### without causing significant economic harm to our 17


### rural communities. We look forward to working 18


### with you. 19



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Mr. 20



### Vandeventer. 21


### MR. VANDEVENTER: Good morning. My name 22

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### is Chris Vandeventer. I am a legislative 1



### represent at ive from Basin Electric Power 2


### Cooperative based in Bismarck , North Dakota. We 3


### serve more than 2.9 million consumers through 136 4


### member cooperatives across nine different states. 5


### We have a diverse energy portfolio, 6


### including coal, wind, nuclea r, gas, and hydro. 7


### More than a decade ago we were the first utility 8



### to build commercial scale wind farms in the 9



### Dakotas. Commitment to the environment was one 10


### of our founding principles more than 50 years 11


### ago. We provide Co2 to the largest sequestration 12


### project in the western hemisphere, and we have 13


### spent more than $10 million investigating carbon 14


### capture at our existing fleet, and possibly new 15



### fleets. But at the end the technology just was 16


### not right and we did not feel it was justified to 17



### the cost of o ur membership or to the tax payers. 18



### Roughly 77 percent of our energy comes 19



### from coal. The Clean Power Plan, as proposed, 20


### could have serious impacts on the affordability 21


### and reliability of that electricity for our 22

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### member systems. 1



### In 2013 we recommended sev eral areas we 2


### wanted EPA to focus on in developing this rule. 3



### You responded to some but left others on the 4


### table. As you listen to the comments today and 5


### the written comments provided later, we urge you 6


### to keep all options open. 7


### We do appreciate EPA's wi llingness to 8


### consider a flexible approach to compliance. 9


### Unfortunately the Clean Power Plan has raised 10


### more questions than it provides answers, given 11


### the ambiguity and apparent contradictions in the 12



### draft rule we request that you extent the comment 13


### period by an additional 60 days. 14



### With that, we do have initial comments. 15


### Regional plans. As a multi

- state utility that 16



### crosses several state borders, we support 17


### regional approach. But what works for one state 18



### may not work for another. Therefore states 19



### shoul d have the flexibility and options to 20


### develop utility specific compliance plans without 21


### the need to join multi state plans. 22

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### On heat rate. We designed and built our 1


### power plants to operate at the maximum 2


### efficiency . There may be opportunities for 3



### addition al generating efficiency improvements 4



### more economical, but current new source review 5


### rules generally do not allow projects that result 6


### in higher levels of efficiency. EPA should 7


### ensure that energy efficiency improvements 8


### pursued by utilities under this ru le and approved 9


### by a state plan should not trigger new source 10



### review. 11


### On early action we believe any project 12


### that reduces atmospheric Co2 emissions should be 13


### allowed for compliance, as long as those 14



### reductions are verifiable and measurable. 15



### Through our s ubsidiary, DGC, the Great 16


### Plaines Synfuels Plant, has captured and 17



### delivered more than 28 million tons of carbon 18


### dioxide for sequestration in the oil fields of 19



### Saskatchewan. 20



### As administrator McCarthy said when she 21


### visited this facility in March, quote, " This 22

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### facility is about the innovation in the United 1



### States. This facility is about what we can do 2



### when we work together." End quote. 3


### EPA should permit states to include 4


### innovation like this in their plans. 5


### Redispatch of natural gas. A 70 percent 6



### capac ity factor for combined cycle plants might 7


### technically be possible, but permitting 8


### transmission, straights, higher maint e n an ce costs 9


### and energy demands all affect a plant's ability 10


### to run. Your own analysis indicates that natural 11


### gas combined cycle plants will run on average 12


### just 56 percent of the time in real practice. 13



### EPA needs to recalculate the state targets to 14


### assume a more realistic capacity. 15


### Unrenewables. What happens with 16


### renewable energy credits, or so

- called green 17


### tags? Do they stay with the g enerating state, or 18



### do the follow the load to the state in which the 19


### electricity is consumed. The rule appears to 20


### leave this matter up to the states. 21


### By 2016 we will have more than 1,000 22

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### megawatts of wind on our energy system. The 1


### uncertainty of countin g the green tags will 2


### certainly impact our ability to comply with the 3



### rule in our service area. 4


### Finally we have specific concerns about 5


### how EPA counted Basin Electric's combined cycle 6


### generation in South Dakota. Our Deer Creek 7



### station was under construc tion for the majority 8


### of 2012 and went in operation late in the year. 9


### It ran just 90 hours. Yet EPA assumed this plant 10


### had a one percent capacity factor for the entire 11


### year. This is highly inaccurate and unfairly 12


### penalizes the State of South Dakota in 13



### d etermining that state's emissions target. 14



### EPA needs to correct South Dakota's 15



### target to reflect that Deer Creek was under 16


### construction during 2012. 17


### We appreciate this hearing and thank you 18


### for your time today. We will be submitting 19



### written comments at a later date and look forward 20


### to answering any questions that may come up. 21



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Thank 22

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### you. Okay. I'd like to ask, please for the next 1



### two speakers, Senator Cardin as well as Liz 2



### Perera to come to the table. 3



### Senator Cardin, you (inaudible)**35:12. 4



### MR. CARDIN : Oh, first. Thank you very 5


### much for this opportunity to testify before the 6


### EPA. I thank you for not only complying with the 7


### law in regards to this hearing, but the spirit of 8



### openness and transparency that has been wha t you 9


### have done presenting this rule for public 10



### comment. 11


### My support, I strongly support the action 12


### of the EPA in moving forward with your rule 13


### governing carbon emissions and power facilities. 14



### I think it's a very positive step forward and I 15



### want to make th at clear. 16


### The inaction is very costly to our 17


### planet. I could relate with you the experience 18


### that I had last year being in Beijing , and being 19


### there for several days, never seeing the sun even 20


### though there was not a cloud in the sky. The 21



### cost of inaction is great. 22

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### The Council of Economic Advisors just 1


### released a report showing what the cost of an 2


### action would be to the economy. And I think 3



### that's clear. 4



### But let me talk as the Senator from 5


### Maryland as to the impact it has on the people I 6


### represent in the State of Maryland. 7


### Seventy percent of our population live in 8


### coastal areas. They're at great risk. Property 9


### owners are at risk of losing their properties as 10


### they literally are being washed away by rising 11


### sea levels. Our unique way of life where the 12



### coast al areas is so iconic to the life in 13


### Maryland is at risk as a result of climate 14



### change. 15



### From the poultry industry that relies 16


### upon corn as its stock, one of the highest cost 17


### parts of the production of poultry is at risk 18



### because of the draught and the shor tage of the 19



### corn crop. 20



### Waterman, who for centuries have 21



### harvested on the Chesapeake Bay are finding that 22

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### the Blue Crab is in danger because of warmer 1



### waters and loss of sea grasses that protect 2


### juvenile crabs. Warmer waters are making it much 3



### more chall enging for all of the harvests from the 4



### Chesapeake Bay. 5


### One of our largest economic engines is 6


### the Port of Baltimore. Its efficiency is very 7


### much threatened by rising sea levels as to the 8


### efficiency of the operations of the Port of 9



### Baltimore. And I could go on and list many many 10


### other of the important economic engines in 11


### Maryland that are jeopardized. 12


### But let me just conclude on the security 13


### front, Maryland is home to major military 14



### installations that are on our coast, from the 15


### Aberdeen Proving Grounds to Pax River, to the 16


### Naval Academy. All being challenged because of 17


### the impact of climate change and carbon 18



### emissions. 19


### And the science here is very clear. It's 20


### beyond dispute that our activities here in our 21


### community is affecting carbon

-- by carbon 22

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### emis sions is affecting our climate and our power 1


### plants are a major source of that problem. So 2


### your rule very much helps us in dealing with the 3



### economic, social, and way of life issues of my 4


### state and our community, and indeed our country 5



### and the internationa l community. 6



### Congress should have acted. Congress 7



### could have acted and used a market

- based approach 8



### that would have helped. It would have been more 9


### flexible in the regards that we could have 10


### developed other tools and we could have given 11



### clearer direction . We should have acted. We 12


### tried. I supported congressional action. Bill 13


### passed the United States House of 14


### Representatives. We had the majority of the 15



### members of the United States Senate that were 16


### prepared to support that. But a filibuster 17



### prevented final action in the United States 18



### Congress. 19


### EPA has the responsibility and the legal 20


### authority to act. Three Supreme Court cases have 21



### made that very clear. So I thank you for 22

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### bringing forward this proposal. It gives the 1



### flexible standards so our states are in control, 2


### it allows for regional approaches, which I think 3


### are very important. Maryland Energy companies 4


### have acted and have done so in a way that has 5


### been cost effective and have created jobs. 6


### So it shouldn't take a Cuyahoga River to 7



### catch fire as it did for us to move forward on 8



### the Clean Water Act or toxic air to be breathed 9


### by the citizens of Las Angeles before we pass the 10


### Clean Air Act. I hope it doesn't take the loss 11



### of Smith Island, the last habitable island in 12



### Maryland's Chesapeake Bay, or t he Everglades to 13



### be washed away. Or for the dustbowl to be the 14


### norm in our bread belt in this country before we 15


### act on dealing with carbon emissions in our power 16



### plants. 17


### I thank you for moving forward and you 18



### have the strong support of the senate. 19



### MS. DU NHAM: Thank you very much. Ms. 20



### Perera. 21


### MS. PERERA: Good morning. My name is 22

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### Liz Perera and it's a pleasure to be testifying 1


### alongside my senator, actually, from the State of 2


### Maryland. And this is my daughter, Leah Perera. 3



### We're residents of Bethesda

. So I'm also the 4


### senior Washington representative on climate 5


### change for the Sierra Club. And I'm also a 6



### volunteer chair for the American Public Health 7


### Association's Climate and Health Topic Committee. 8


### I want to speak with you today about why 9



### Sierra Club and our 2.4 million members support 10


### the Environmental Protection Agency's first ever 11



### Carbon Pollution Standards for Power Plants. And 12


### we will work to strengthen these standards in the 13



### Clean Power Plan. 14


### But first I'm going to take this 15


### opportunity to tell you why I personally care 16


### deeply about these carbon pollution standards, 17


### and why I've brought my daughter Leah here with 18



### me today. 19



### First, I'm the mother of two beautiful 20



### children, Leah who is five, and Aiden who is 21


### three. And Leah will be 22 years old, in the 22

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### prime of her life in 2030 when this standard 1


### seeks to reduce emissions by 30 percent. And in 2



### 2050, when she'll be 42, in our home state of 3


### Maryland, there are projections showing a 4


### possible two feet of sea level rise, and these 5


### projections rise to si x feet by 2100. 6


### The National Mall and this very building 7



### could be under water under these scenarios. And 8



### the islands we love so much on the Chesapeake 9


### Bay, like Smith Island, will potentially be gone 10



### long before 2050. 11


### Crisfield Maryland, home of our belov ed 12


### Crisfield Crab, is portrayed in Noah's 13


### interactive sea level rise tool as being 14



### underwater with one foot of sea level rise. And 15


### imagine when another super storm Sandy hits and 16


### have a powerful storm surge on top of this sea 17



### level rise. Imagine the dest ruction and the 18



### lives lost in the area when it's our friends and 19


### family. It's not fair to my daughter, it's not 20


### fair to our children to do nothing in the face of 21


### this reality. We must act now. 22

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### Power plants are responsible for 40 1



### percent of the carbon p ollution in the U.S. and 2


### by cleaning up and modernizing power plants we 3


### will begin to clean up our air, reduce polluted 4


### related illness, and curb climate disruption. 5



### I have a Masters of Public Health, and 6


### reducing carbon pollution from power pla nt s will 7


### not only save billions of dollars each year, it 8


### will save lives. In fact for every dollar 9


### investment in the plan we'll see roughly $7 in 10


### benefits. This is crucial to my fellow public 11


### health professionals with the American Public 12



### Health Association. 13



### The Clean Power Plan creates a strong 14



### framework that will enable states to move towards 15


### clean energy and put states in the driver's seat 16


### to create a plan to eliminate carbon pollution. 17


### The carbon pollution standards present a huge 18


### opportunity to improve our environment, public 19



### health, and the economy. 20


### The U.S. is well on its way to meeting 21


### and exceeding EPA's proposed goals and the U.S. 22

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### can be a leader in making the transition to clean 1


### and equitable energy future. 2


### Sierra Club will be working with its 3



### allies to strengthen the EPA's carbon pollution 4


### standard for existing power plants. With 5


### improvements Sierra Club recommends the carbon 6


### pollution standards could reduce power plant 7


### emissions potentially 35 to 40 percent from 2005 8



### levels by 2020, and that would b e in line with 9


### meeting the president's goal of 17 percent 10



### reduction in U.S. carbon emissions from 2005 11



### levels. 12


### It could also promote energy efficiency 13


### and renewable energy, without incentivizing 14


### natural gas, nuclear, and other climate 15


### disrupting energy sou rces. 16


### Poll after poll demonstrates the public 17


### supports and limitation of the Clean Air Act. 18


### And letting the EPA do its job to protect public 19



### health and ensure a cleaner future for us all, we 20


### should not let a vocal minority of profit

- drive 21



### corporate poll uters derail standards that would 22

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### have tremendous benefits for our children, our 1



### families, and all Americans who value clean air 2


### and wild places. 3


### Again, we strongly support EPA's efforts 4


### to clean up dangerous carbon pollution and we 5



### strong support the stan dard. Thank you very 6



### much. 7



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. I'd 8



### next like to ask Senator McConnell and Bill 9



### Bissett to come to the table. Is Bill Bissett 10



### here? 11


### (No audible response.) 12


### MS. DUNHAM: Would you like to join them 13



### and go up next? 14



### COURT R EPORTER: Speak into the 15


### microphone. 16



### MS. DUNHAM: Yeah, I'm sorry. Okay. So 17


### let me just be louder. So, if Bill Bissett is in 18


### the room, if you could come to the table as well 19



### as Senator McConnell. 20


### Okay. Do the next card. Okay. I'd like 21


### to ask Jimmy Rose and Lon Huber, if you're in the 22

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### room, please to come to the table. Okay. 1



### We'll have to refresh our cards here. 2


### But you go ahead and we'll see who is next up. 3



### MR. HUBER: Okay. Thank you. Good 4


### morning. My name is Lon Huber. I'm an employee 5



### with A rizona's Residential Utility Consumer 6



### Office, or RUCO. 7


### RUCO is a state governmental agency that 8


### represents the interest of Arizona's residential 9


### rate pairs. 10


### Since our establishment in '83 by the 11


### Arizona legislature RUCO has provided a voice for 12



### residen tial consumers and rate related 13


### proceedings involving public service corporations 14


### of all kinds. RUCO also actively participates in 15


### high level policy discussions made by the State 16


### Utility Commission. 17


### We pride ourselves on being a thoughtful 18



### stakeholder and we strive to guide the 19


### development of smart policies that maximize the 20


### benefits for residential rate pairs and for the 21


### utility system as a whole. 22

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### It is what that frame that I come before 1



### you today to address the proposed Clean Power 2



### Plan rules. 3



### Based on our initial review of the 111D 4


### Rule RUCO has three major concerns. These issues 5


### do not represent the totality of our position and 6


### we plan to provide additional comments after 7



### further review. 8


### First, EPA calls for a significant and 9


### concerning level of re dispatch from coal to 10


### natural gas. In fact redispatch represents 11


### Arizona's largest building block by far, roughly 12


### 70 percent of our potential. 13


### This target could very well force our 14



### state to run down nearly all of our coal plants. 15



### While Arizona does have a large amount of natural 16


### gas generation, only 50 percent of those 17


### facilities are owned by our state utilities. 18


### Moreover, they are largely located in one general 19



### area west of Phoenix. To that end we are 20



### concerned that the EPA's assumed level of 21


### redispatc h fails to account for several related 22

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### factors, including existing contractual 1


### obligations, transmission capacity constraints, 2


### pipeline availability, security considerations, 3


### and air quality limitations. 4


### Second, according to the proposed rule 5



### EPA assumes Arizona would be able to complete 6



### this foundational transition from coal to natural 7


### gas by around 2020. About five years after we 8


### get clarity on our targets, and even less time 9


### from when our state plan actually gains approval. 10



### Since Arizona has no natura l gas storage 11


### and only two major national gas pipelines, this 12


### radically compressed timeline leaves Arizona 13


### virtually no time for proper economic, safety, 14


### and reliability based preparation. Furthermore, 15


### we operate outside of an RTO or ISO. Thus, we do 16



### not have the same flexibility to easily 17


### redispatch as other states. 18


### This scale of this redispatch mixed with 19


### the interim goal creates a perfect storm that 20


### could expose our rate pairs to serious 21


### reliability and safety issues. In a dessert 22

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### Southwest summer r eliable electricity is not a 1


### luxury, it is a life sustaining necessity. 2


### We urge the EPA to provide a 3


### substantially longer runway for states to make 4


### this coal to natural gas transition and include a 5



### phase

- in approach to redispatch. 6



### Also the interim aver age target is so 7


### close to the end 2030 target it leaves little 8


### room for flexibility, let alone enough time to 9


### cite needed upgrades. Put simply the interim 10


### level reduction would be more prudent to trigger 11



### around 2030. 12


### Third, forward looking states should g et 13


### credit for their leadership. Notably the EPA's 14


### best practices for energy efficiency are 15


### partially based on the energy efficiency targets 16


### and savings demonstrated by Arizona. Yet, it did 17


### not give Arizona credit for its work as an early 18



### adopter. 19



### Likewis e, we have the largest nuclear 20


### generation station in the country, yet only 21


### receive what every other state receives, that 5.8 22

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### percent credit for that energy. 1


### There are several ways to remedy this 2


### issue regarding EE And RE standards. States with 3


### higher than average deployment when compared to 4


### their regional peers, should be able to count 5


### verify savings since inception of their standard. 6


### For nuclear the credit should be equal to the 7


### percentage of load being served by that resource. 8


### For example, if nuclear co unts for 15 9


### percent of the State's generation then an 10


### equivalent credit should be given without 11


### increasing the target. Similarly Arizona should 12


### get some credit for its hydro investments which 13


### have provided carbon

- free energy reliably for 14



### many years. 15



### In su mming up these three points I would 16


### like to reiterate our deep concern about the 17


### level of natural gas switching proposed for 18


### Arizona, dispatch into natural gas generation 19


### that we do not own, whose location largely 20


### resides in one part of a large state, and on such 21


### an aggressive timeline presents many practical 22

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### challenges. These factors lead us to question 1


### the achievability of EPA's target. 2


### Finally, I do want to thank the EPA staff 3



### in advance for listening to us today and acting 4



### on our concerns. As the EPA evaluates our 5


### comments I urge you to consider the following. 6


### Arizona is one of only two states not to see a 7



### net benefit from this rule, and we also have one 8


### the highest rates of reduction. For these 9


### reasons RUCO is concerned that the proposed rule 10



### would expose Arizona rate pairs through economic, 11


### health, and security risks that are unduly 12



### burdensome. 13


### As such we urge the EPA to revisit 14


### Arizona's target and consider the suggestions we 15



### have presented. 16



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. All 17


### right. I'd like t o ask Seth Heald and Theresa 18



### Pugh to come to the front table now, please. 19


### MS. PUGH: He's being such a gentleman. 20



### Thank you. 21


### Good morning, I'm Theresa Pugh, Director 22

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### of Environmental Services with the American 1



### Public Power Association. APPA is the na tional 2


### association for 2000 state and municipally owned 3


### or not for profit electric utilities. We serve 4



### in 49 states and we serve 46 million Americans. 5


### We appreciate the opportunity to comment 6


### on the proposed rule. We believe that Congress 7



### should have add ressed this and made a very 8


### different ultimately a regulatory decision that 9


### was different than this, but obviously that's not 10



### the case. 11



### As a result we think that EPA could have 12


### done a far more flexible approach on the Co2 13


### regulation in 111D. 111D is not inherently this 14


### complex or this difficult to meet. We have 15


### multiple concerns with the proposal. We intend 16



### to file comments that are constructive, fact 17


### based, and make recommendations to actually 18


### improve the proposed rule in a more workable, 19



### affordable, and sustainable manner. 20


### But we believe that this proposal goes 21


### well beyond what the statute authorizes. We're 22

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### disappointed that the states were not given the 1


### full authority that they have in the law to set 2


### individual state limits, individual plant limits. 3


### And this proposed rule provides on role for the 4


### states in setting those standards or in revising 5


### those state plans as they might be needed, 6


### particularly given difficulties in achieving the 7



### standards. 8


### Simply, the proposal tries to do too much 9



### too fast. T he state limits are too stringent and 10


### they offer a wide and differing level of 11


### compliance for many different states. 12


### As others have pointed out, the limits 13



### are front loaded, so you really have to actually 14


### achieve most of what is required by 2020, not 15



### 203 0. 16


### Another key concern is the states don't 17


### get full credit for all of the reduction measures 18



### undertaken and those investments in renewable 19


### energy and energy efficiency that they've 20



### undertaken far earlier than 2012. And even 21


### though the president mentions t hat the goal is a 22

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### 17 percent reduction in greenhouse gasses since 1



### 2005, that's really not undertaken here because 2


### we don't get full credit. 3


### Public Power is already well on track to 4


### meet that overall reduction target, by the way. 5



### But it's crucial that our members receive full 6



### credit for all of the reductions undertaken since 7


### before the 2012 base line year. 8


### In addition we worry about the 9


### requirements for state agencies that are 10


### unachievable, and that these actions may in fact 11


### perhaps surprisingly force the p remature 12


### retirement of not just coal plants but natural 13


### gas plants. The result may indeed incur stranded 14


### costs that will be paid for by the consumer of 15


### electricity. And that might have, in some 16


### localized locations, impacts on electricity 17


### reliability. 18



### Whi le there's been a lot of touting 19


### flexibility for states in choosing various 20


### compliance options, that flexibility seems to be 21


### a mirage. The aggressive assumptions and the 22

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### selection of data in setting the base lines, the 1


### whole calculation process, is just t oo much. 2



### There's not much left in terms of choice and 3


### flexibility. Frankly, the utilities have to do 4


### all of the building blocks. So really the 5


### building blocks become the road blocks to 6


### flexibility. 7


### Lastly, the state requirements do not 8



### account for the i ncreased demand for electricity. 9


### And this demand is both population, population 10


### migration, increased population, and energy 11



### intensive industries that will need this load or 12


### will provide load growth. 13


### We expect that the economy will grow and 14



### we think that this electricity demand is a 15


### problem. In specific the U.S. Census Department 16


### points out the largest population areas in the 17



### U.S. are Arizona, Florida, Texas, California, 18



### Nevada, Utah, Colorado, North Carolina, and 19


### Delaware. And this proposal does not ac commodate 20


### load growth in any manner. 21


### Thank you for the opportunity to speak. 22

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### We will file detailed comments later. Thank you. 1



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. 2


### MR. HEALD: Good morning. My name is 3


### Seth Heald. I've lived in Virginia for 32 years. 4



### I h ave retired recently after a 35 year career 5


### practice in law and I enrolled in a graduate 6


### master's degree program on energy policy and 7


### climate change at Johns Hopkins. 8


### I'm also an electric cooperative member 9


### owner. I thank the EPA for issuing the proposed 10


### carbon standards and for holding this hearing 11


### today to allow the public to comment on them. 12



### Efforts to reduce power plant carbon 13


### emissions are long overdue. President Lynden 14


### Johnson was briefed on global warming in the 15


### 1960s. As the science historian, Sp encer Weart 16



### described in his excellent book from 2003, 17



### entitled The Disc overy of Global Warming, we've 18



### known since the 19th Century about the ability of 19


### atmospheric carbon dioxide emissions from burning 20


### fossil fuels to raise Earth's temperature. 21



### In the 198 0s and 1990s the science became 22

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### even clearer, as did the evidence that 1


### atmospheric carbon dioxide has increased 2


### enormously and that our plant is, as a result, 3


### indeed warming. 4



### So we've known for some time what we need 5



### to do, but our nation and much of the rest of the 6


### world have dithered. It's heartening that EPA 7


### has now taken a serious step towards reducing 8


### carbon emissions from a leading source, electric 9



### power plants. In truth the proposed rule is 10


### insufficient. We don't need to delay. We don't 11



### need to set lower standards. We need to impose 12


### higher standards sooner even though there may be 13


### some difficulty in that, that we have to have our 14



### solution be commensurate with the size of the 15


### problem we're dealing with. 16



### But I won't dwell on that here. The 17



### propo sed standards and the great flexibility that 18


### they give to each state to implement them are an 19


### important first step in our effort to 20


### decarbonizes the grid. 21


### We know we can do this. In fact many 22

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### states, not waiting for the EPA, have already 1


### taken significa nt steps to reduce their power 2


### plant emissions, their carbon emission, a nd their 3


### economies have not suffered. In fact they've 4



### thrived

. 5


### Unfortunate my state, Virginia, is well 6


### behind the leaders in acting on climate. But 7


### these carbon rules will prod Virgi nia to catch up 8



### with its more forward

- thinking neighbors, and 9



### that's long overdue. 10


### Despite the urgency of our climate 11


### predicament, you have heard and will hear from 12


### people and corporations, some quite powerful and 13



### influential who claim that we can't do thi s or we 14


### can't afford to or it will ruin our economy. 15


### Many of these naysayers are linked to and profit 16


### greatly from the burning of fossil fuels, as 17


### shown by Professor Naomi Oreskes in another 18



### excellent book, Merchants of Doubt. Some fossil 19



### fuel interest h ave even promoted a deliberate 20


### campaign of disinformation about climate science, 21


### designed to create a false sense of doubt; just 22

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### as what was done decades earlier in the case of 1



### tobacco and its link to cancer. 2



### The short answers to the climate action 3



### naysaye rs are one, we can't afford not to act 4


### now. Two, delaying climate action will cost our 5


### economy much more. And three, the EPA is 6


### required to act on carbon emissions because the 7


### Supreme Court has told the EPA that it must, 8


### including seven years ago in the case EPA vs. 9



### Massachusetts

. 10



### In fact the current efforts of some, 11


### including some members of Congress to demonize 12



### the EPA's carbon reduction efforts and to not 13


### implement EPA vs. Massachusetts , remind me of an 14


### unfortunate chapter in Virginia's history. 15



### In the 1950s a shameful effort termed 16



### Massive Resistance, was established at the 17


### instigation of a U.S. senator for Virginia. Many 18


### other public officials signed on and state laws 19


### were even passed in support of that effort. The 20



### purpose of course was to block implementation of 21


### the Supreme Court's decision in Brown vs. Board 22

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### of Education , which barred segregation in public 1



### schools. 2



### The massive resistance of the 1950s was 3


### morally and legally wrong, and the actions of a 4


### group of misguided people who were on the w rong 5


### side of history. Well, the same is true of those 6


### today who say we can't do this, we shouldn't do 7



### this, we can't afford to do this. 8


### Virginians and all Americans face severe 9


### threats to life, limb, public health, and 10


### property from global warming. Thank you EPA for 11


### taking this important step that you have now 12



### taken to reduce carbon emissions. 13



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much 14


### (indiscernible)**1:01:24. All right. I'd like 15



### to ask Senator McConnell as well as Jimmy Rose to 16



### come to the table, please

. 17



### MR. MCCONNELL: Good morning. I 18


### appreciate the opportunity to participate in 19


### today's second round of listening sessions. It's 20


### my understanding that these sessions are intended 21



### to gather stakeholder input on EPA's proposed 22

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### regulations on existing power plant s. 1



### However, I couldn't help but notice that 2


### once again these sessions are scheduled in 3


### locations that are very difficult from our 4



### constituents in coal country to get to. The 5


### closest hearing for them is in Atlanta, which for 6


### many is a 13 hour round trip. 7


### You say everyone has an opportunity to be 8


### heard, whether by online submissions forms, fax, 9


### or mail if they cannot make the hearings. Well, 10


### many in coal country are facing a depression and 11



### are out of work. In large part due to your 12



### agency's war on coal. 13


### The internet and your online portal are 14


### not readily accessible for many of my 15



### constituents . Snail mail does not provide any 16



### reassurance that their comments have been 17


### received and are being taken seriously. My 18


### constituents want to talk to you in person, look 19


### you in the eye, and tell you what these 20


### regulations will do to their families. 21



### However, you have refused to accept my 22

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### numerous invitations to come to Kentucky, and so 1


### that's why I'm back here again today. 2


### I brought with me a friend from coal 3



### countr y, Jimmy Rose. Jimmy is from Pineville, 4


### Kentucky, and he's a veteran of the U.S. Marine 5


### Corps, a former coal miner, and a finalist on 6


### America's Got Talent. He is famous for his song, 7


### Coal Keeps the Lights On. 8


### Members of the Kentucky Coal Association 9



### ar e here with us today as well. 10


### To us it seems as though the EPA wants to 11


### take one of our signature industries away. The 12


### onslaught of overregulation and lack of certainty 13


### in the coal industry has contributed to the loss 14


### of 7,000 coal jobs since President Obama took 15



### office. 16


### Despite the claims of many it doesn't 17


### have to be this way, according to both the 18


### Kentucky Energy and Environment Cabinet and the 19


### Energy Information Administration , Kentucky coal 20


### jobs were actually up during the previous 21



### administration by 3,500 jobs from 2001 to 2008. 22

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### That makes it clear to me that layers 1


### upon layers of regulations this administration 2


### keeps piling on are contributing in a major way 3



### to this decline. 4


### Last month your agency proposed this rule 5


### for existing power plants. T hese regulations 6


### come on top of a host of other regulations that 7


### comprise the war on coal, such as your proposed 8


### carbon pollution standards on new power plants, 9


### the mercury and air toxic standards, the ozone 10


### national ambient air quality standards, and the 11



### cross

- state air pollution rule, just to name a 12



### few. 13



### This doesn't even address the mine 14


### permitting process which is slower than ever. 15


### But today we're specifically here to talk 16



### about your latest regulation for existing power 17


### plants. I believe this regulat ion to be more 18


### like a scheme than a rule. It's a numbers game 19


### masquerading under the guise of allowing states 20


### flexibility to meet an individual prescribed 21


### carbon reduction goal. But the effect of 22

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### reaching this goal treats states different and 1



### plays favor ites. Kentucky's assigned target is 2


### to reduce carbon emissions in 2013 by 18 percent, 3


### while Washington State has been assigned a target 4



### of over 70 percent. 5


### The targets paint an illusion by using 6



### percentages rather than real numbers. An 7



### illusion that Ke ntucky is somehow getting off 8


### easy. But of course this is not the case. 9


### Kentucky will have to cut much more emissions 10


### than Washington to meet its target. This is 11


### because Washington does not utilize low

- cost, 12


### efficient, and reliable coal fire generation and 13


### Kentucky does. Washington will only have to 14



### close one coal

- fired power plant to meet its goal 15


### of reducing emissions by over 70 percent. 16


### However, Kentucky, with 20 coal

- fired 17


### power plants that provide our state with 90 18


### percent of its electricity will h ave to cut 19


### significantly more jobs and reliable income for 20



### thousands of families across the state in order 21


### to meet its goal. 22

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### It's those in less fortunate communities 1


### and those who lost their jobs due to fuel 2


### switching that are hurt the most from higher 3



### ut ility bills. 4


### Now it seems to me, and to many fellow 5



### Kentuckians, that as far as the EPA is concerned, 6


### coal is simply a dirty word. I can assure you 7



### that is not the case in the Commonwealth of 8


### Kentucky. In my state coal is what has provided 9



### a life's wor k for generations. It has put food 10


### on the table and paid for clothes, education, and 11


### healthcare. It represents the pride to be found 12



### from an honest day's work. And I'm here on 13


### behalf of Kentuckians throughout my state to say 14



### that we will not sand idly b y while this 15


### administration tries to wipe out the lifeblood of 16



### our state. 17



### So before I conclude I want to thank my 18


### friend, Bill Bissett, President of the Kentucky 19


### Coal Association, who is here and will testify 20


### later. Bill has made the trip to Washington to 21


### speak for many in the coal industry he 22

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### represents, who could not come. 1


### And I want to introduce, at this point, 2


### my good friend, the voice of a Kentucky 3


### coalminer, Jimmy Rose. 4



### MS. DUNHAM: Mr. Rose. 5


### MR. ROSE: I pledge allegiance to the 6


### flag and to the Unit ed States of America, to the 7


### Republic for which it stands, one nation under 8


### God, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for 9



### all. 10



### Folks, I don't feel we're a united nation 11


### anymore. I don't feel that we are one nation 12



### under God anymore . I don't feel we're 13


### indivisible anymore when we had to buy coal from 14


### another country like Russia to keep our own 15


### people working. Australia is the only country 16


### now to oppose this new tax admission. I feel 17


### that it's a sad thing. 18


### Let me ask you all a question. Has any 19



### of yo u ever experienced a war zone, combat, 20


### warrior fear of not knowing if you're going to 21



### make it another day? Take a walk through my 22

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### hometown. Take a walk through Bell County, 1


### Harlan, Knox, Bracken, Whitley, Pike, or Perry 2


### County Kentucky, just to mention a few. Folks, 3


### there you're going to find a war zone. There 4


### you're going to find real people with real lives. 5



### Real families who suffer from this civil war, and 6



### this war on coal. 7


### Come walk through my communities and see 8



### the businesses closed, the trucks parked, the for 9


### sale signs. Come walk through the schools and 10



### look at the faces of the kids who suffer from 11


### jobless daddies, jobless brothers, or uncles, or 12


### cousins. Come visit the unemployment offices 13


### where you're going to find those same jobless 14



### daddie s, uncles, and brothers, and cousins, 15


### looking for it because we want to work. We don't 16



### want a handout. 17


### Come visit the churches where you're 18


### going to find those same people come together in 19


### prayer at such needed time. Okay? 20


### No, you won't come to this w ar zone. You 21


### won't come to this poverty stricken area. You 22

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### won't come and look my people in the eye. You 1



### don't want to have to look to their kids and have 2



### to make up an excuse to go back home to make 3



### yourself feel better. You don't want to have to 4



### go b ack home to your lives, okay, and sit behind 5


### your desk to make decisions that kill our way of 6



### life. You don't want to have to do that. 7


### In closing I want to encourage you, I 8


### want to challenge you, okay, when you're making 9



### these decisions to consider the re percussions, to 10


### consider these repercussions on the decisions 11


### you're making kill our way of life. At least 12


### consider what you're doing and what you're really 13


### doing to their life or way of life. 14


### I'm for saving the environment. I'm for 15


### saving our future. But I believe we've got to 16


### save us first. I believe we've got to save our 17


### people first. Without our people we don't have a 18


### tomorrow, folks. I believe we've got to save 19



### what's real first. 20



### G a la t ian s 62 says bear one another's 21



### burdens. It's the law of Christ. Bear each of 22

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### us burdens. Bear our hurt and their pain. It's 1


### the law of Christ. Okay, I challenge you to do 2



### that. 3


### Where I come from coal keeps the lights 4


### on. Not natural gas, oil, wind turbines, or any 5



### other energy source but coal. Makes up 97 6



### percent of Kentucky's energy. 7


### I want to thank you all for this 8


### opportunity. Thank you for having me and all my 9



### constituents and God bless. 10



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. 11



### Rose and Senator McDonnell. 12


### Okay. We might take a quick two minute 13



### pause because I

-- let's take a short pause here 14



### while we wait for the next list. 15



### (Pause.) 16


### MS. DUNHAM: Okay. Let me just ask, is 17


### Mr. Bill Bissett here? Okay. Why don't we go 18


### ahead and if you'd like to come to the table. 19



### MR. BISSETT: Yes, ma'am. 20



### MS. DUNH AM: You can speak. Thank you 21



### very much. 22

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### MR. BISSETT: Thank you. Good morning, 1


### my name is Bill Bissett and I'm the president of 2


### the Kentucky Coal Association and organization 3


### representing nearly 12,000 men and women, 4


### employed directly in Kentucky coal m ining and 5


### approximately 36,000 other Kentuckians whose 6


### livelihood is connected to our industry. 7



### I want to thank U.S. Senator Mitch 8


### McConnell for securing me the opportunity to 9


### speak with you today after these hearings were 10



### closed more than two weeks ago. 11



### KCA strongly opposes EPA's proposed Clean 12


### Air Act Section 111D regulations because they 13


### have no legal foundation and would jeopardize the 14


### American economy without any resulting economic 15



### benefit

-- excuse me, environmental benefit. 16


### More specifically, th e thousands of men, 17


### women, and children whose lives depend upon 18


### Kentucky coal will be placed in jeopardy as a 19


### result of a symbolic gesture that can accomplish 20


### nothing in the real world. 21


### As is well known the Kentucky coal 22

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### industry has suffered tremendous jo b losses in 1


### the past two years due in large parts to the 2



### actions of President Obama and this EPA. Your 3


### current Section 111D proposal has the potential 4


### to convert these previous job losses into a full

5


### fledged economic collapse, especially for coal 6


### mining c oal using states like Kentucky. 7


### The legal backdrop for this current 8



### proposal reflects a stunning absence of respect 9


### for constitutional principles, of separation of 10


### powers, and the will of the American people. The 11


### rejection by congress of Cap and Trade 12



### leg islation five years ago should have put an end 13


### to your attempts to comprehensively reduce 14


### greenhouse gas emissions except through 15


### technology based provisions of the Clean Air Act. 16



### Instead we are confronted by an attempted 17



### end

- run around Congress using lega l authorities 18


### never intended for such purposes. This proposal 19


### is clearly an attempt to force a square 20



### regulatory peg into a round statutory hole and it 21


### has little chance of surviving judicial review. 22

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### EPA should heed the warning of the U.S. 1


### Supreme Court i n the UARG decision, which I will 2


### quote, "EPA's interpretation is also unreasonable 3


### because it would bring about an enormous and 4


### transformative expansion in the EPA's regulatory 5


### authority without clear congressional 6



### authorization . When an agency claims to discover 7


### in a long extent statute, an unheralded power to 8


### regulate a significant portion of the American 9


### economy, we typically greet this announcement 10


### with a measure of skepticism. We expect Congress 11


### to speak clearly if it wishes to assign to an 12



### agency, decisions of vast economic and political 13


### significance. 14



### Although the UARG decision addressed 15


### regulation of greenhouse gasses under the PSD 16



### program, can there be any real doubt that the 17


### quoted language was intended to address the 18



### Section 111D proposal? 19



### If th e Section 111D proposal has any 20


### potential to protect public health KCA and those 21


### it represents would have an entirely different 22

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### opinion. However, it is clear it has no such 1


### potential. KCA urges EPA not to destroy the 2



### lives and aspirations of so many hard working 3


### Americans in order to provide a feel

- good moment 4


### for an elitist minority. 5


### To stay within my allotted five minutes I 6


### would like to briefly address several points that 7



### need to be relayed to you. You need to have more 8


### hearings. It is one issue tha t the Sierra Club 9


### and I agree upon. You need to have more hearings 10


### where more voices can be heard and you need to 11


### come to the coal fields and listen to the people 12



### there. 13


### It is simply unexpectful to expect people 14


### who live in the coal fields to only be able to 15



### send an e

- mail or a letter. You need to hear 16



### their voices firsthand. 17


### Much of the ongoing discussion of your 18


### proposal focuses on the economic harm it will 19


### cause, but we also need to be discussing the 20


### critical importance of the reliability of our 21



### electr icity supply. Coal is, from all accounts, 22

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### the most reliable fuel source to generate 1


### electricity on this plant. As Americans we take 2


### it for granted how reliable our electricity is. 3


### In many cases it is literally a life giving and 4


### sustaining resource. For you to tamper with the 5


### reliability of electricity by forcing the switch 6


### to less reliable fuel sources is wrong

- headed and 7


### simply dangerous. 8


### And you and President Obama attempt to 9


### move this country away from coal usage when the 10



### rest of the world is movin g towards coal as fast 11


### as they can. China, India, Spain, Germany, Japan 12


### are just a few examples of countries building new 13



### coal plants. We get frequent calls at Kentucky 14


### Coal Associations from buyers in other countries 15


### who want our coal to meet their grow ing demand 16



### overseas. 17


### You're trying some kind of international 18


### example. You're trying to set some kind of 19


### international example and the rest of the world 20


### is not following you. Other countries will 21



### continue to build their economies on coal

- based 22

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### electric ity like the United States did, or they 1


### will decrease their cost of electricity following 2


### a failed experience to other forms of electricity 3


### production that have become either too costly or 4



### not in their best interest. 5


### The United States has the largest coal 6


### reserves in the world, and by using the coal 7


### that's in the ground here in our country we can 8


### move much closer to the energy independence that 9


### so many of us want to see in our lifetimes. 10


### Thank you for the opportunity to speak 11


### for so many Kentuckians today, that we believe 12


### what you are doing is misguided, against the will 13



### of congress, extremely harmful to our economy, 14


### and the affordable reliable electricity that 15


### created this country and gives us the wonderful 16


### quality of life we have. Please know that we 17



### will work diligently to stop your efforts with 18


### every legal, political, and public means at our 19


### disposal. Thank you. 20


### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you, Mr. Bissett. 21


### Okay. Next I'd like to ask Paul Faeth 22

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### and Julie Hantman to come to the table. All 1


### right. Mr. Faeth. 2


### MR. FAETH: Thank you. Good morning. My 3


### name is Paul Faeth. I am the Director of Energy, 4



### Weather, and Climate Division at the Institute 5


### for Public Research, CNA Corporation. We are 6


### nonprofit research and analysis organization 7


### located in Arlington, Virg inia. 8



### For the last four years we have 9


### undertaken work focused on water use in the power 10



### sector, and I'll focus my comments on that. 11


### In the U.S. water use for thermal cooling 12



### of steam generators represents the largest source 13



### of fresh water withdrawals and t he largest source 14


### of water consumption. This water dependence 15


### represents a significant source of vulnerability 16


### for the power sector during times of drought. 17



### In 2011 Texas suffered the worst one year 18


### drought in its history. Demand for electricity 19



### was at a n all

- time high because of the heat, and 20



### the water needed to cool the state's power plants 21


### was in short supply. In some places water levels 22

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### had dropped below intake pipes. In others the 1


### available water was too hot to provide effective 2


### cooling. Texans we re warned that rolling 3


### blackouts were possible. 4



### In the end ERCOT, the good operator, met 5


### demand without blackouts, though it came close. 6


### A key factor in keeping the power flowing during 7


### the drought was that Texas had been aggressively 8


### developing wind powe r. 9



### Currently Texas generates more power from 10


### the wind than any other state. Wind is a power 11


### source that requires no water, unlike thirsty 12



### source, such as coal. 13


### This Monday CNN released two reports on 14


### water use in electricity generation. The first 15



### one detailing analysis we did in four case 16



### studies, China, France, India, and Texas. And 17


### the second providing strategies to capture 18


### synergies between water conservation and carbon 19



### dioxide emissions. 20



### In the course of the work we developed a 21



### new power sector m odel that accounts for water 22

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### use. Currently neither EPA nor the Energy 1



### Information Administration have policy models 2


### that can estimate changes to water use in the 3


### power sector under different regulations. 4


### We found that three strategies are very 5



### effective in reducing the amount of water 6


### required for cooling of thermo electric power 7


### plants. These are energy efficiency, wind and 8


### (indiscernible)**1:19:02 renewable generation, 9


### and switching from coal to natural gas. 10


### Energy efficiency works because it avoids 11



### th e need for new generation. It is also the 12


### least expensive option. Wind and PV cut use 13


### water because they don't require water use to 14



### generate power except for the water to wash PV 15


### panels. And moving from coal to natural gas 16


### works because the higher effic iency levels of gas 17



### turbines means that there is lest waste heat. 18



### And therefore gas uses half or less of the water 19



### needed for coal plants. 20


### Nuclear power requires more water than 21


### coal, and carbon capture and sequestration almost 22

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### doubles water's requiremen ts. 1


### Relative to coal, energy efficiency, 2



### renewable energy, and natural gas also cut carbon 3


### dioxide emissions in roughly the same proportions 4


### that they save water. Since these strategies are 5


### the basis for the building blocks proposed in the 6



### Clean Power P lan, this means that the plan will 7


### not only reduce Co2 emissions but also cut water 8


### use in the power sector. 9


### We have recently applied our model to 10


### look at the potential impacts of the proposed 11


### rule in Texas. As you are aware Texas has the 12


### largest Co2 emis sions of any state, but 80 13


### percent larger than the second, which is 14



### California. More than a third of those emissions 15



### come from electricity generation. 16


### We set up the model to represent option 17



### one for the state program. In 2012 Texas's 18



### emission rate was 12 84 pounds of Co2 per megawatt 19


### hour. It's final target rate is 791, and the 20



### interim 2029 the rate is 853. 21


### The mix of electric power generation in 22

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### Texas currently was 37 percent coal, 47 percent 1


### gas, 9 percent nuclear, and 8 percent wind. Our 2


### preliminary results, which I want to stress are 3


### subject to change, show that Texas is likely to 4



### achieve substantial reductions in water use for 5


### thermal cooling as well as Co2 emissions, even 6


### without the proposed rule. 7



### In our baseline scenario we see a 15 8



### percent redu ction in water consumption, and a 31 9


### percent drop in the carbon intensity rate, from 10



### 1,284 to 858 between 2012 and 2029. 11


### Over that period total Co2 emissions 12


### declined by 18 percent. We also see a drop in 13


### So2 emissions of one third and a 29 percent drop 14



### in Nox. 15


### The reason is that the price of wind is 16


### already competitive with gas, and wind and gas 17


### are both cheaper than coal in Texas. Also wind 18


### costs are expected to decline while the price of 19


### gas is expected to increase. Thus we see that 20


### coal generation d eclines by one third while 21


### generation grows by 12 percent, and wind 22

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### generation quintuples. 1



### These numbers for growth might seem 2


### extreme, but peak demand for integration in ERCOT 3


### jumped from 17 to 30 percent between 2012 and 4


### 2013. The potential is very very large. 5



### With the intensity rate substantially in 6


### the baseline the new rules won't require Texas to 7



### make extraordinary adjustments to meet the 8


### targets. Because of the addition of end

- use 9


### efficiency demand is lower by 10 percent by 2029. 10



### Coal power drops f urther to just 56 percent of 11


### the 2012 number, with less demand, wind and gas 12


### generation grow less than the baseline. 13



### We find that the implementation of the 14



### Clean Power Plan in Texas would further increase 15


### water savings in the state by about two thirds 16



### more compared to the baseline, from a 15 percent 17



### drop to 25 percent drop. 18


### We also find that although the cost per 19


### megawatt hour probably would increase by about 9 20


### percent, the drop in electricity consumption due 21


### to energy efficiency would push total systems 22

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### cost down. 1



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Ms. 2



### Hantman. 3



### M S . HANTMAN: Thank you for the 4


### opportunity to offer my views on the proposed 5


### Clean Power Plan. My name is Julie Hantman. I 6


### am the Washington, D.C. Field Organizer for Moms 7



### Clean Air Force, a com munity of moms and dad 8


### united in fighting air pollution and calling for 9



### climate action. 10



### When I became a parent two and a half 11


### years ago, I learned quickly that parenting is a 12


### tough job. The sleeplessness , the uncertainties, 13


### costs and decisions. It's joyo us, but it's 14



### really hard. 15


### Climate change is making that tough job a 16


### lot tougher. In fact it's interfering with my 17


### three basic roles as a parent. My role as 18


### protector. A climate changed world weakens my 19


### ability to protect my daughter from serious 20



### health and weather related threats. My family 21


### lives here in Washington, D.C. and our extended 22

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### family across the wider northeast, a region with 1


### the greatest increase in extreme precipitation 2


### according to the National Climate Assessment. 3



### My mother

- in

- law lives in Southern Nassau 4


### County, Long Island, just a few miles from the 5


### shoreline where Hurricane Sandy landed with the 6


### intensity of a once in 300 year storm there, 7


### damaging or destroying 74,000 structures in 8



### Nassau County alone. 9


### Here in D.C. I tried to keep my dau ghter 10


### indoors on days when ground

- level ozone is 11


### elevated. Ozone can lead to breathing 12


### difficulties, especially in children. 13


### D.C. already gets a failing grade on 14


### ozone levels from the American Lung Association, 15


### yet ozone will further worsen as a result of 16


### increased temperatures linked to climate change. 17


### I have a master's degree in public 18



### health, so I'm aware of the other health threats 19


### posed by climate change, heat stroke, infectious 20



### diseases and more. These are real threats that 21


### could easily overwhelm th e capabilities of many 22

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### state and county public health systems which are 1


### fragile to being with. 2


### Secondly, climate change challenges my 3


### role as teacher. A mother ought to feel joy and 4


### confidence teaching her child simple aspects of 5



### the natural world. But t hat world, our best 6


### scientists say, is changing and degrading. And 7



### the normal truths about the weather, plants, and 8


### animals will not endure throughout my daughter's 9



### life. 10


### When we visit the zoo I am quietly 11


### uneasy, aware that many animals she's getting t o 12


### know will dwindle in the wild and even go 13


### extinct, unable to adapt to a changing climate, 14


### during her lifetime. 15


### Finally, unchecked climate change will 16


### threaten the quintessential mom role of reassure 17


### in chief. My mother always modeled hope for me. 18



### Her v oice still resonates and reassures me in 19



### turbulent times. Hearing the clear

- eyed 20


### predictions of our best scientists I wonder if 21



### I'll be able to reassure my daughter that the 22

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### future is bright, or that the world can be 1


### improved. 2


### In my day to day life and in my work with 3


### Moms Clean Air Force I carry the conviction that 4



### if we run hard with the excellent science we have 5


### and make the strong and fair changes we need to 6


### make, then we will be able to safeguard for our 7


### children the hopeful horizons we've enjoyed in 8



### our own lives. Our kids will need resilience to 9



### survive the hard times ahead, but if we start 10


### acting now then qualities like lightheartedness 11


### and purpose also will find true places in our 12


### children's and grandchildren's lives. 13


### And parents will have an easi er time 14


### doing their jobs, namely protecting, teaching, 15


### and reassuring our kids. 16



### I support the proposed standards and I 17



### ask that EPA further strengthen the Clean Power 18


### Plan by finalizing the rule that reduces carbon 19


### dioxide emissions by 50 percent below 20 05 levels 20



### by 2020. 21


### Thank you again for the opportunity to 22

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### speak today. 1



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you. Thanks very 2



### much. Next at the table I'd like to ask Alan 3



### Hantman and Rosalyn Hantman. Thank you very 4



### much. 5



### MS. HANTMAN: Okay. Thank you for the 6


### opportunit y to appear before you. My name is 7


### Rosalyn Hantman. I'm retired from my position at 8


### Columbia University where I served as the 9


### Director of Organization Development. And I'm 10


### the very proud grandparent of six curious, 11


### sensitive, and bright young people ran ging in 12


### ages from two to 19. You've just met Lila. 13


### I'm here today because I'm very worried 14


### about the choices our grandchildren will inherit. 15


### Choices that will be severely limited by a future 16


### that will be defined by increasingly poor air 17


### quality and by r ising seas, unless concerted 18


### action is taken today. 19


### MR. HANTMAN: Good afternoon. My name is 20


### Alan Hantman. Rosalyn and I have been married 21


### for 49 years. We believe that there's much that 22

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### can be done to improve the environment for all 1


### our children and gr andchildren, and I present one 2


### very positive example. 3



### I'm the former architect of the United 4


### States Capitol, appointed by President Clinton in 5


### 1997, and confirmed unanimously by the U.S. 6


### Senate. During my tenure from 1997 to 2007 I was 7


### responsible for a 2,300 person legislative branch 8


### agency and all the government buildings on 9


### Capitol Hill. This included the Capitol Power 10



### Plant, for which I commissioned an environmental 11


### study that recommended, given the plant's 12


### location in the densely populated Washingt on, 13


### D.C. Metropolitan area, that natural gas should 14


### become its primary fuel. 15


### During my tenure we began the conversion 16


### from 100 percent coal utilization by 17


### incorporating a tri

- fuel operating philosophy 18


### that significantly cut down on plant emissions. 19



### This t ransition has continued after the 20


### completion of my term. The power plant now 21


### generates its steam and its chilled water through 22

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### the use of 98 percent natural gas. In fact plans 1


### are moving ahead towards the creation of co

2


### generation facilities that will cr eate even 3


### greater efficiencies in the production of steam 4


### and electricity. This demonstrates that good 5


### things can be accomplished in reasonable stages. 6


### With the cost of natural gas coming down 7


### to one third of the price it had been when this 8


### conversion beg an, this initiative is resulting in 9


### very significant savings in the cost of fuels 10


### used for Capitol Hill's needs, while minimizing 11


### its environmental impact on Washington, D.C. 12



### MS. HANTMAN: As you are aware, the U.S. 13


### National Climate assessments was complet ed three 14



### months ago by a team of more than 300 experts. 15


### Their findings included clear data on warming 16


### trends, major droughts, and sea levels that are 17


### projected to rise one to four feet depending on 18


### future greenhouse gas emissions. All of these 19


### projection s will significant effect millions of 20



### American families like ours. It shows that we 21


### need major positive action now to protect our 22

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### children and grandchildren. 1


### Our eldest granddaughter is an A student 2


### in college. She's grown up in Bucks County, 3


### Pennsylvani a, in a state that is the fourth 4


### leading producer of coal in our country, and in a 5


### county that has received a failing grade in the 6


### American Lung Association's 2014 State of the Air 7



### report. 8


### She has seriously suffered from asthma 9


### since she was 10 years old, and her condition has 10


### been exacerbated by air pollution. She must 11


### bring her nebulizer to class to help relieve 12


### wheezing and tightness in her chest, which 13


### happens quite often. 14


### Clean air is not optional. Tackling 15


### climate change will clean up our air and help 16



### tackle asthma. 17


### We live in Fort Lee, New Jersey, across 18


### the Hudson River from New York City and have 19


### personally seen how raging storms, including 20


### Hurricane Sandy, have washed over the shores of 21



### Edgewater , New Jersey, a town that lies just 22

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### below our hom e. 1



### We've witnessed storms also that are far 2


### less catastrophic than Sandy, play havoc with 3


### commercial and residential properties on both 4



### sides of the Hudson River. And we're concerned 5


### that based on the predictions of experts that 6


### climate change will rest rict choices of where all 7



### of our grandchildren may choose to live and work. 8



### MR. HANTMAN: The EPA's Clean Power Plan 9


### will be a very important part of the package of 10


### smart energy solutions which should include 11


### renewable energy sources. We need to provide 12



### r eliable and affordable electricity that does not 13


### compromise our health, our climate, and our 14



### freedom. We cannot trade the health of all of 15


### our children and grandchildren, and that of 16


### generations to come, for the short

- term economic 17


### concerns raised by indu stries that benefit from 18



### the status quo. 19


### In closing we ask that the EPA go even 20



### further than the proposed 30 percent carbon 21


### emissions reduction target and increase the 22

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### reduction to 40 percent by 2020. 1



### MS. HANTMAN: Thank you very much for the 2


### opportunity t o share our very deep concerns with 3



### you today. 4



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Thank 5



### you both. 6


### All right. Next I would like to ask John 7



### Taylor and Thomas Heller to come to the table. 8


### All right. Mr. Taylor, if you'd like to 9


### go first. 10



### MR. TAYLOR: Hi . I'm John Taylor. I've 11


### worked as a pharmaceutical executive in the U.S. 12


### and Japan and a trade advisor

-- a trade policy 13


### advisor and economic policy advisor in New 14


### Jersey, and a corporate governance consultant in 15


### the United States and Japan. 16


### My wife, Tak ako is a licensed physician 17


### in Japan where she practiced gastroenterology for 18



### several years and worked for many years as an 19


### immunology researcher and freelance interpreter 20


### here in the U.S. in more recent years. 21


### I helped brief Ronald Regan's second U.S. 22

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### Tra de Represent, Clayton Yeutter, as he began his 1


### tenure, and proposed negotiation agenda items on 2


### biological products and advised Governor Tom 3


### Kean, also a Republican during his final years as 4



### New Jersey Governor , until his last term ended in 5



### 1990. 6



### So here i s someone with what might once 7



### been considered conservative instincts, I 8



### suppose. That's why I'm appalled at my country's 9


### role in global warming and too many other 10


### environmental crises that we face, nationally and 11


### globally. To use conservative vernacular
, 12


### becoming the ultimate taker state. We seem 13


### unable to bear our own weight, let alone lead 14


### developed nations and those in different stages 15


### in development. 16


### Frustrating is an understatement. In a 17


### more perfect world minimalist government 18



### intervention in the form of substantial phased in 19



### carbon tax would move us from the tail end to the 20


### forefront of humanity's essential and inevitable 21



### move to save itself at a bare minimum cost to our 22

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### economy. Winners would vastly outnumber losers 1



### from such an approach, but b y producing revenue 2



### it would also offer the resources to soften the 3


### burdens on any perceived victims or even to 4



### reduce other tax burdens. 5



### But above all it would harness market 6


### forces instead of working against them to 7


### substantially drive down carbon outp ut and all 8



### that means for our plant's future. 9



### Such a taxed system may be a long shot in 10


### the politics at the moment, but future 11


### generations will judge you on whether we're able 12


### to summon the courage to sew this stitch in time 13



### soon enough. 14



### If, sadly, for t he very near term though, 15


### sensible carbon pricing is dead in the water, the 16



### most conscientious conservatives are four square 17


### behind the EPA's proposal, joining hands with 18


### everyone else sharing a stake in public health 19


### and in saving ourselves and future gen erations 20



### from catastrophic weather and sea level changes. 21



### How can we not? 22

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### The next best solution is to directly 1


### regulate carbon emissions, and it's right in the 2



### EPA's toolbox. 3



### Under these circumstances there's no 4



### ethical alternative to strongly supporting the 5


### EPA's plan to at least to limit carbon pollution 6



### from power plants. These sources account for 7


### some 40 percent of the carbon pollution emitted 8


### in this country. 9


### The case would be overwhelming, solely on 10


### the basis of our ethical obligation to lead 11



### rathe r than follow in this noblest obligation of 12


### our time, to reign in carbon dioxide emissions 13


### and mitigate unacceptable global climate effects. 14



### To help the world steer as clear as 15


### possible from tipping points as we flirt with 16



### catastrophes like sea level rise and 17



### desertification and irreversible loss of 18


### biological diversity. 19


### But today's choice is rendered even 20


### easier if we consider the bigger picture of 21


### carbon plant emissions. When fossil fuels are 22

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### burned the emissions include not only carbon 1



### dioxide, but as EPA's own data attest, a range of 2



### other pollutants that burden downstream 3


### neighbors, as so many have testified yesterday 4


### and today. They include the larger hydrocarbons 5


### and even particulates that undermine air quality 6


### in fronts American has been fighting ever since 7



### before we had an EPA. 8


### We know they're linked to asthma , costly 9


### emergency room visits, other medical costs, and 10



### premature death. 11



### And as I mentioned, I'm a dreamer. With 12


### a policy like this in place, lobbyist serving the 13


### most efficient players i n our energy sector, 14


### those who produce the highest value even after 15


### fully incorporating the cost of carbon pollution 16


### will learn to love economy wide carbon taxation. 17


### In my crystal ball I see them just around 18


### the corner spearheading political consensus fo r 19


### the one policy, sensible carbon pricing that will 20


### one day make measures like the Clean Power Plan 21


### that are absolutely necessary in the absence of 22

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### it, eventually unnecessary and redundant one day. 1


### But until Capitol Hill and the White 2



### House act on taxation it is clearly the job of 3


### the EPA to get carbon pollution under control as 4


### effectively as possible by any means necessary. 5



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you, 6



### (indiscernible)**1:37:14. Mr. Heller. 7


### MR. HELLER: Good morning. My name is 8



### Tom Heller. I'm the CEO of Mis souri River Energy 9



### Services in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and I'd 10


### like to thank you for the opportunity to provide 11



### you comments. 12


### Background in Missouri River Energy 13


### Services, we're a municipal joint action agency. 14



### We supply wholesale power and energy serv ices to 15



### 61 member cities in Minnesota, Iowa, North and 16


### South Dakota. Our peak load is nearly 1,000 17


### megawatts. We have one coal generating resource, 18



### Laramie River Station in Whelan , Wyoming. It's 19


### a 1,710 megawatt station built in 1980, and there 20



### are six owners. 21


### MRES is a 16 and a half percent owner. 22

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### Our portion of the plant is about 280 megawatts. 1



### This single plant provides 70 percent of the 2



### energy that we sell to our members. Our comments 3


### this morning, we would ask that you redraft the 4



### proposed rules and I have a couple specific 5


### examples of what I'd like to point out. 6


### First, we'd like you to consider 7


### disproportionate impacts on nondiversified fuel 8



### utilities such as MRES. 9



### This afternoon APPA, American Public 10



### Power Association and National Electric 11



### Co operative Association are holding a staff 12


### briefing on Capitol Hill. They retained FDI 13


### Consulting. 14


### FDI Consulting has done a study and their 15


### conclusions show that the emission rate trading 16


### disproportionally hurts small utilities such as 17



### MRES. 18



### The emissio n rate trading is very 19


### devastating to nondiversified coops and 20


### municipals . It creates stranded costs from plant 21



### shut downs. 22

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### MRES is a good example of this. The EPA 1


### has recently ordered the installation of SERs, 2


### selective catalytic reduction at Laramie Ri ver 3



### Station . That is going to cost us $750 million. 4


### The remaining life of LRS should be at least 20 5


### years. If we install these SERs, will we get 20 6


### years out of the remaining life? We could have 7



### to close one of those plants due to the fact of 8



### the

-- du e to the mass base emissions systems 9


### that could be put into place in Wyoming. One of 10


### the three plants could be closed, causing 11



### stranded costs. 12


### On an emission based system how do we 13


### comply in Wyoming? We have no load. The only 14


### way we could is possibly bu ild some renewable 15


### energy. With no load there and reduced 16



### transmission, that seems rather foolish. 17



### The cost to us to close Laramie River 18


### Station and replace that plant with natural gas 19


### combined cycle at a different location because 20



### there's not natural gas there, could cause a 65 21


### percent increase in our wholesale costs, 35 22

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### percent in member retail rates. 1



### Secondly, we would ask that you allow 2


### more time for states to work together. We think 3



### the current schedule is unrealistic . MRES, as I 4



### indicated, has sale s in four states. Minnesota, 5



### Iowa, North and South Dakota. That's where our 6


### member systems are. And we have a single plant 7


### in another state, Wyoming. 8


### We need Co2 reduction in Wyoming and have 9


### energy efficiency programs and renewable energy 10


### programs in t hose four states where we have 11


### sales. Our members are doing a great job of 12


### energy efficiency and savings. They average on 13


### an annual basis about .7 percent. Our energy, 14



### our renewable energy program, we have several 15


### wind installations that provide us abou t 12 16


### percent of our energy right now. 17



### In addition to the renewable energy that 18


### is provided by wind, we also have a 55 megawatt 19


### hydro project that we are going to start 20



### construction within the month. The Red Rock 21


### Hydro Project in Pella, Iowa is going to st art 22

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### construction and hopefully be completed in 2018. 1


### The President actually mentioned this 2


### project in his June 2013 and June 2014 Climate 3


### Report as an example of how we can build 4


### infrastructure to meet climate change challenges. 5



### It was listed on the Feder al Infrastructure 6



### Dashboard. We need to be able to use this clean 7


### project in Iowa to offset Co2 emissions in 8


### Wyoming. 9


### And lastly, it is unclear how hydro power 10


### is treated under the draft rules. Hydro needs to 11


### be recognized as an option for future compl iance. 12


### Thank you very much and we will provide written 13



### comments before the due date. 14



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Thank 15



### you both. 16


### I would next like to ask Richard Caperton 17



### and Toby Short to come to the table. 18



### Okay. Mr. Caperton. 19



### MR. CAPERTON: Go od morning. 20


### MS. DUNHAM: Good morning. Start 21



### whenever you're ready. 22

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### MR. CAPERTON: It's good to see you, 1


### Paula. And thank you for having me. 2


### My name is Richard Caperton and I work at 3


### a company called OPower. Thank you for giving me 4


### the opportunity to sh are my support for 5


### simulating investment and energy efficiency 6



### through the Clean Power Plan. 7


### OPower is excited and looking forward to 8


### working with our utility clients to save 9


### households energy and small businesses across the 10


### country. And that will not o nly help utilities 11



### meet the targets you set forth, but also save 12



### consumers money. 13


### Let me take just a minute to tell you 14


### about OPower and how we're reducing energy 15


### consumption today. OPower provides behavioral 16


### energy efficiency, behavioral demand response, 17



### and consumer engagement products to more than 90 18



### utilities in nine countries and 35 states. 19


### That's a big deal. 20


### Right now we reach into 22 million 21


### households, and we do that with paper mail, e

22

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### mail, websites, voice mail, text messages, and 1



### any other commu nication we can think of. 2


### We are making a real impact with the 3


### people that we reach. To date we have saved five 4



### terawatt hours of energy. And that translates to 5


### keeping a city the size of Las Vegas or Baltimore 6


### off the grid for an entire year. That's g oing to 7


### save households $550 million. That's what we've 8


### done so far. And most important to EPA, most 9


### relevant to you, is that that saves more than 3 10



### million metric tons of Co2 so far. And that's a 11


### big deal and we're excited about the results, but 12



### it's n owhere near what we could be doing. 13


### If fully deployed, our behavioral energy 14


### efficiency in just residential uses could save 10 15



### million metric tons of carbon dioxide emissions a 16


### year, every year, going forward. 17


### Now, we are just one company. The energy 18



### eff iciency industry can do even more. For 19


### example, McKinsey and Company has conclude that 20



### U.S. consumers could save money through 21


### investments in energy efficiency and buildings 22

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### and appliances and approximately 710 to 870 1



### megatons of greenhouse gases over the next 20 2


### years. Indeed your own analysis that accompanied 3



### the Clean Power Plan showed that American 4


### families will save money by making our economy 5



### more efficient. 6



### Of course to meet the requirements of the 7


### law you have to be sure that energy efficiency 8



### pro grams are actually reducing pollution, if 9


### utilities are going to use them to meet the 10


### standards you set. And I apologize for this but 11


### let me use some technical jargon real quickly 12


### just so you know exactly what I'm talking about 13



### here. 14



### It's at the inclusio n of beyond the fence 15


### line measures and compliance options, such as 16


### behavioral energy efficiency requires robust 17



### evaluation, measurement and verification. 18


### Fortunately proven methods are available and the 19


### process can be reasonably implemented and 20


### replicate d on a state by state basis as we at 21



### OPower have shown. 22

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### In our (indiscernible)**1:45:07 1


### methodologies we use something called the 2


### randomized control trial approach. This is the 3


### gold standard in scientific studies, and indeed 4


### it's been endorsed by the DOE Uniform Methods 5


### Project and also the State and Local Energy 6


### Efficiency Action Network run by DOE as the 7


### preferred method for measuring and verifying 8


### behavioral efficiency programs. 9


### We do that and we're doing it right now 10


### in 31 states across the country and it's been 11


### approved widely; the exact same thing. 12


### Let me close by commenting directly on 13


### your proposal, which contains a number of 14


### positive aspects that I want to reinforce. 15


### First, and most important, as you know your 16


### proposal allows utilities to use beyo nd the fence 17


### line measures, including energy efficiency, to 18


### comply with the reduction targets. That's very 19


### important because it will lead to innovation in 20


### the energy sector and it will help utilities use 21


### the full suite of tools at their disposal to 22

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### reduce pollution. 1


### Related to that, I appreciate the 2


### attention that you've given to behavioral energy 3


### efficiency. Thank you for that. 4


### I'm going to be submitting more formal 5


### comments and more complete technical comments 6


### addressing the questions that you ask in t he 7


### proposal about (indiscernible)**1:46:20 practices 8


### and demonstrating that they are widespread and 9


### accepted across the country in a uniform way. 10


### And finally, I hope that your final rule 11



### not only allows for projects started today to be 12


### used for compliance as your proposal recommends, 13



### but also that emissions reductions before 2020 14


### can be used for compliance. I believe that fully 15


### rewarding early action is key for jumpstarting 16


### probusiness investments. 17


### Thank you for hosting this listening 18


### session. I'm proud t o be able to talk with you 19


### about ways to fight climate change at the same 20


### time as saving consumers money, and I'm looking 21



### forward to further conversations about these 22

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### issues with you. Thanks. 1



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you, Mr. Caperton. 2



### Mr. Short. 3



### MR. SHORT: I just want to make sure 4



### because last time it wasn't one, it started down 5



### the red side. 6



### MS. DUNHAM: (Indiscernible.)**1:47:02. 7


### MR. SHORT: Good morning and thanks for 8


### this opportunity. My name is Toby Short and I'm 9


### a director of federal governmental affai rs for 10


### Duke Energy Corporation. 11


### Duke Energy is the largest utility in the 12


### nation and provides regulated electricity service 13



### to 7.2 million homes and businesses located in 14



### six states in the Southeast and Midwest. These 15



### 7.2 million homes and businesses repr esent a 16


### population of approximately 21 million people. 17


### We have invested around $9 billion in new 18


### efficient coal and gas plants over the past 19


### decade as we have transitioned our generation 20


### portfolio to a lower carbon footprint. These 21



### investments have reduc ed our carbon emissions 22

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### more than 20 percent from 2005 levels. 1


### Let me just reiterate that for one 2


### second. We've invested $9 billion and have 3


### lowered our carbon footprint by 20 percent from 4



### 2005 levels already. 5



### I'm here today on behalf of these 21 6



### mill ion people we serve to encourage the EPA to 7


### do two things. First, we ask that you extend the 8


### comment period on the Clean Power Plan by at 9


### least an additional 60 days so we and others can 10


### provide fact

- based meaningful comments. This 11


### plan unprecedented in scope, it raises a 12


### tremendous number of highly complex issues 13


### regarding the way electricity will be generated 14


### in the future, and the complex nature of the plan 15


### requires states and utilities to evaluate and 16


### model hundreds, if not thousands of pieces of 17



### data in order to try and gain an understanding of 18


### the potential impacts on electric service. This 19


### impact is also unprecedented and it justifies an 20


### extension of the comment period. 21



### In addition the proposed use of an 22

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### emissions rate goal applied at the state lev el 1


### requires close collaboration among utilities and 2


### state agencies to evaluate, and this takes time. 3


### Based on our preliminary evaluations of 4


### the plan, Duke Energy has several significant 5



### areas of concern. While we will file formal 6



### comments as part of the rulemaking process, our 7


### second request is to ask the EPA to work directly 8


### with us and the utility sector on its proposed 9



### plan. 10


### We have had past successes with such 11


### collaborations, including MATS and the recent 12



### 316B Rule. We encourage EPA to be open to the se 13


### requests, and Duke Energy is committed to 14


### providing candid fact

- based comments on the 15



### proposal. Thanks. 16



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. 17



### MR. SHORT: Thank you. 18


### MS. DUNHAM: All right. Let's see. Next 19


### I'd like to ask Thomas Easterly and Tarra 20



### Pasca rosa to come to the table, please. 21


### Nice to meet you. Please, when you're 22

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### ready. 1


### MR. EASTERLY: Good morning. My name is 2


### Thomas Easterly and I am a commissioner of the 3


### Indiana Department of Environmental Management, 4


### also known as IDEM. I bring you greeti ngs from 5



### Governor Pence of Indiana. 6


### Indiana will be significantly impacted by 7


### the proposed 111D regulations for fossil fuel of 8


### electric generating units because we are the most 9


### manufacturing intensive state in the United 10


### States. With over 80 percent of ou r electricity 11



### currently produced by coal we'll have a 300 year 12


### supply of coal in our state. 13


### IDEM's mission is to protect Hoosiers in 14



### our environment . And examining how the proposed 15


### 111D regulations further our mission, I've come 16



### to the conclusion that t his proposal will cost 17


### significant harm to Hoosiers and actually most 18


### residents of the United States, without providing 19


### any measurable offsetting benefits . For these 20


### reasons, as well as a questionable legal basis 21



### for the proposal, I request that U.S. EPA 22

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### withdraw this proposal and work with us and other 1



### energy producing states to develop a balanced 2


### regulation that uses all of our fuels in the most 3



### efficient manner. 4



### In the long run a program focusing on the 5



### most efficient use of all of our resources and 6



### e nergy, including coal, will provide the most 7



### cost effective world

- wide reductions in 8


### greenhouse gas emissions, allow people around the 9


### world to approach our standard of living, and 10


### allow development of an understanding of why the 11


### climate models have not pr edicted the over 15 12


### year long pause in significant warming that is 13


### currently being observed. That it's clear that 14


### global carbon dioxide concentrations are 15


### increasing and that urban areas and irrigation 16


### both increased measured average temperatures 17



### above th ose measured in similarly situated 18



### undeveloped natural areas. 19


### What needs to be improved on is the 20


### understanding of the relative role of carbon 21


### dioxide concentrations in this puzzle. 22

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### Chapter 5 of the 2011 National Academy of 1


### Science's report, America's Clim ate Choices, lays 2


### out the four goals driving the development of the 3


### proposed regulation. Limiting global mean 4


### temperature increases by limiting global 5


### atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations, by 6


### limiting greenhouse gas emissions including 7


### limiting U.S. emissions. 8


### The report, while recommending that work 9



### to reduce emissions should commence, also 10


### identifies the following unanswered questions 11


### about the goals. What is a safe amount of 12


### climate change? When they say it depends on the 13


### risk associated with giv en temperature targets 14


### and decisions about willingness to tolerate those 15



### risks. 16


### How does greenhouse gas concentrations 17


### translate into global temperature change and 18


### other impacts? Well, that depends on the climate 19


### sensitivity and the strength of other fo rcing 20


### factors, including aerosols. 21


### How does a given level of emissions 22

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### translate into an atmospheric greenhouse gas 1


### concentration? That depends on the carbon cycle 2


### dynamics and the timing of emission reductions. 3



### And then what is a reasonable share of 4



### U. S. emission reductions relative to global 5


### targets? That depends on political, economic, 6


### and ethical judgments. 7


### Now it is prudent to take no regrets 8


### actions to avoid potential future problems. 9



### However , this proposal is not a no regrets 10



### proposal. U.S. EP A predicts that this proposal 11


### will increase the cost of natural gas and the per 12


### kilowatt hour cost of residential electricity by 13


### around 10 percent in the next six years. 14



### Our country already has too many 15


### completely preventable deaths from hypothermia 16



### and he at exhaustion every year because people 17


### cannot afford to pay their utility bills and 18


### eventually lose service. This serious human 19


### health problem will be exacerbated by the cost 20


### increases driven by the proposed regulation. 21


### The most ironic impact of the prop osed 22

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### regulations is that they are likely to increase 1


### worldwide greenhouse gas emissions by decreasing 2



### the international competitiveness of U.S. 3


### businesses due to increased energy costs. 4


### Competitive businesses have been 5


### investing in cost effective energy s avings 6


### activities for decades. Under this proposal the 7


### total cost of the products produced in the U.S. 8


### will need to increase, eroding our international 9


### competitiveness and resulting in the loss of U.S. 10


### Manufacturing jobs. 11



### When these businesses close U.S

. 12


### emissions will decrease, but worldwide greenhouse 13


### gas emissions will increase as our businesses 14



### move to areas with less efficient and more carbon 15


### intensive energy supplies. 16


### I do applaud U.S. EPA for trying to make 17


### the most workable regulation to implem ent this 18


### misguided policy. But the fact that this 19


### misguided policy will harm Hoosiers and other 20


### people in our country while actually increasing 21


### the worldwide level of the very emissions it is 22

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### designed to decrease, compels me to ask you to 1


### withdraw this pr oposal. Thank you. 2



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Ms. 3



### Pascrosa. 4



### MS. PASCAROSA

- DUFF: Good morning. My 5



### name is Tarra Pascarosa

- Duff, and I'm from 6


### Virginia Beach, Virginia. I'm here on behalf of 7


### my 22 month old son, Brady and my entire family. 8



### We wan t healthy air, water, and food for Brady 9


### today and for all of his tomorrows. 10



### All of this health factors stem to the 11


### carbon power plan. We must have clean air to 12



### contribute to the clean water and food in our 13



### communities. 14


### In my community of Hampton Roads, 15


### Virginia, we face several climate change related 16


### battles on a daily basis. Two of which are coal 17



### dust and sea level rise. We breath coal dust in 18



### on a regular basis from the nearby Norfolk 19


### Southern Terminal at Lambert's point. 20



### The coal dust is detrimenta l to our 21


### health and is a leading cause in many health 22

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### ailments to include pediatric asthma, and adult 1



### asthma. 2



### There are 158,500 cases of pediatric 3



### asthma and over 540,000 cases of adult asthma in 4


### 2013 in Virginia. Our nearby neighboring city, 5



### Richmond, Vi rginia is the number one asthmatic 6


### capital of the country. 7


### Secondly, at Hampton Roads we are at risk 8



### to seal level rise. Only second in the country 9



### next to New Orleans . We do not need to 10


### experience a hurricane or a northeaster storm for 11


### Virginia Beach, N orfolk, or surrounding areas to 12


### experience severe flooding. We experience sea 13


### level rise during a full moon or just a high tide 14



### due to sea level rise. 15


### Churches in our neighborhoods have to 16



### reschedule their actual services due to tide 17



### schedules. People ha ve been flooded in the 18



### churches and unable to leave because of the sea 19



### level rise conditions in Norfolk; in the Gent 20



### area of Norfolk. 21


### The seas are rising due in part to 22

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### climate change, and we must have a plan moving 1


### forward. Curbing carbon pollution mus t be part 2


### of this plan so that we can slow down the process 3


### of sea level rise and climate change. Not only 4



### for our future but for the current present future 5



### of our children. 6



### Children are particularly vulnerable to 7


### the health impacts of climate change. We have a 8


### moral obligation to act to protect our children 9


### now. Not just in the future, and to leave them a 10


### planet that's not damages by carbon pollution. 11



### I ask that the EPA reduce carbon dioxide 12


### emissions 40 percent below 2005 levels by 2020, 13



### for my son, Brady, and for all of the children. 14



### Thank you very much, Tarra and Brady 15



### Duff. 16



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. 17



### MS. PASCAROSA

- DUFF: Thank you. 18


### MS. DUNHAM: Okay. I'd like to ask that 19


### Linda Burchfiel and Karen Melton please come up 20



### to the table. Okay. When you're ready. 21



### MS. BURCHFIEL: Linda Burchfiel. I 22

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### applaud the president for his leadership in 1


### acting on climate disruption and the EPA for 2


### working with stakeholders to draft this clean 3


### energy plan. This is a very important first 4


### step. While it's a good idea to let each state 5


### develop its own carbon reduction plan with its 6


### own mix of building blocks. The building blocks 7



### are not equal. 8



### The plan needs to be restructured to make 9


### sure that the best compliance options are more 10


### attractive. Energy efficie ncy is the building 11



### block that needs to be incentivized. Benefits 12


### are many, including reduced energy use with all 13


### of its accompanying pollutants, as well as 14



### reduced energy cost for users. Less money spent 15


### on energy is money available to spend elsewhere, 16


### providing a boost to the economy. 17


### Energy efficiency programs from demand 18



### side reduction to building envelope improvement 19


### are inexpensive to implement and create jobs that 20



### cannot be outsourced. 21


### Another strong compliance option is 22

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### development of renewable energy which will 1


### provide free energy for the states once the 2


### initial outlay is weighed. 3


### One possible measure to further 4


### incentivize energy efficiency and renewables is 5


### to give states additional time to adjust on the 6


### condition that they are making steady p rogress 7


### toward adoption. 8


### Another possible incentive would be to 9


### provide states with federal economic incentives. 10


### Federal money is available. Tax payer funds that 11


### currently support the oil and gas industry with 12


### subsidies, such as BLM Coal leases, generous 13


### depreciation allowances, and other tax breaks 14


### could be redirected to states struggling to 15



### convert to renewable energy or to scale up energy 16


### efficiency programs. 17


### States would have flexibility in the use 18


### of that money. Some states would direct funds 19



### toward s weatherization, others would provide 20


### rebates to needy residents whose electricity 21


### rates had increased to pay for new renewable 22

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### generation. 1


### One of the building blocks is far less 2


### attractive as we get more and more evidence about 3



### the damage that natural ga s can cause. It's not 4



### as clean as we had thought. Natural gas may be 5


### necessary over the short term but it does not 6


### belong in the clean energy plan. 7


### First major problem is its contribution 8


### to greenhouse gases. It is true that when burned 9



### for power natur al gas emits only half as much 10


### carbon as coal, but it's life cycle tells a 11


### different story. 12


### Beginning with extraction and continuing 13


### on through processing and transportation natural 14


### gas emits a lot of methane from leakage, thanks 15



### to modern measurement te chniques we are better 16



### able to measure that leakage, have learned it's 17



### about one half to three times as much methane as 18



### we had estimated. 19


### We already know that methane is a very 20



### potent greenhouse gas, far worse than carbon 21



### dioxide in the short term. 22

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### Secon d major problem is extractions. All 1



### of the easy natural gas has been depleted and the 2


### only economical way to get what's left is 3


### fracking. As mentioned above fracking is 4


### responsible for a lot of methane and I support 5



### EPA's efforts to control leakage. We don't want 6


### to jump out of the carbon pan and into the 7


### fracking fire. 8



### Another problem with encouraging 9


### inversion is that it will delay transition to 10



### renewable energy. In fact the EPA's own 11


### regulatory impact analysis predicts that the rule 12



### would push us in the wrong direction, create an 13


### immediate surge in gas fired power plants. The 14



### plan needs to be reworked so that states have 15


### more incentive to move forward to adopt energy 16


### efficiency and clean energy programs. The sooner 17



### they get started the better off they and our 18



### environment will be. 19


### Again, I salute the president and the EPA 20


### for making a good start and the environmental 21


### community will support your efforts to strength 22

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### the Clean Power Plan. 1



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Ms. 2



### Melton. 3



### MS. MELTON: My name is Karen, with a K, 4



### Melton, M

- E

- L

- T

- O

- N, from Philadelphia. And I am 5


### testifying as a board member of the Chester 6


### County Citizens for Climate Protection, a 501C3 7


### organization dedicated to public outreach and 8


### education on climate change. 9


### This hearing, like many others, is about 10



### how much loss of life and health and natural 11



### resources we are prepared to trade off so that 12



### fossil fuel industries can continue to treat air 13


### and water life free sewers. This question gets 14



### asked across a broad range of pollutants 15



### generated by power plants from nitrous oxides, 16



### VOCs and sul fu r dioxides to arsenic, mercury, and 17



### selenium

. 18


### Today we talk about Co2. I would like to 19


### briefly respond to an argument that gets made 20


### repeatedly by industry that coal is a cheap 21



### energy source. Coal certainly is a cheap energy 22

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### source if we only look at what it costs to dig it 1


### or blow it up out of the ground and deliver it to 2


### the power plant, which is the cost we see on our 3



### electric bills. 4



### But if we factor in the external costs 5



### some studies esti mate it would be two to three 6


### times as expensive. To mention just a few 7


### examples, in the estimated 250,000 coal miners 8


### have died from black lung disease. Ten thousand 9


### just in the last decade. Three times as many 10



### suffer life

- long respiratory problems. 11



### Th e black lung benefits program that is 12


### supposed to be paid for by the coal industry is 13


### reported to have borrowed 8.7 billion from the 14


### Federal Treasury so far, and that is expected to 15


### increase to 68 billion by 2040. 16


### And the MIT study estimated there are 17



### 20 0,000 early deaths each year in the U.S. due to 18


### air pollution, with 52,000 associated with power 19


### generation. 20


### People in Appalachia , where mountain top 21


### removing coal mining occurs, have a 58 percent 22

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### higher cancer rate, and 42 percent higher birth 1



### defect ra te, with public health costs estimated 2


### somewhere around 75 billion per year. 3



### These are all costs of coal that don't 4


### show up on electric bills, but we are paying them 5


### nonetheless. And we haven't mentioned the nearly 6


### incalculable costs of climate change. H ad we 7


### been paying the true cost of energy, efficiency 8


### would be built into every building and product we 9


### use. Devices and places to live would compete 10


### based on their efficiency. 11


### Instead a recent ranking of the world's 12


### 16 largest economies for energy effic iency, put 13



### the U.S. at number 13. 14


### Despite all these costs, we also know 15


### that air quality in the U.S. has improved 16


### significantly and continues to improve. We have 17


### come a long way from the days when Pittsburg 18



### looked like Beijing does today as a result of air 19


### quality standards put in place by the EPA and 20


### implemented by the states. 21


### I assume the air quality, like Beijing is 22

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### what people who want to defund the EPA consider 1



### the good old days. 2


### The deaths associated with power plant 3


### pollution have dropped. Sulfur dioxide pollution 4



### is down, nitrous oxides are down as a result of 5



### increased use of scrubbers and the retirement of 6



### coal plants. So EPA, you have made a huge 7


### difference with some major power plant 8


### pollutants, and the regulations responsible for 9


### these impr ovements as this one is, we're all 10


### predicted to, by industry, to cause economic 11



### Armageddon , which has not occurred. 12



### I want to thank you so much for the work 13


### you did last year with the Tier 3 Vehicle 14



### Emission and Fuel Standards, and the regulation 15



### of toxic discharges into waterways by coal fired 16


### power plants. You can probably guess that I wish 17


### you had gone much further with this Clean Power 18


### Plan, but I assume it is the most you consider 19


### feasible right now. 20



### Please continue pursuing your terrorist 21


### plot to imp rove air and water quality and to 22

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### stabilize our climate. I see it as a good 1



### counter measure to the fossil fuel industries 2


### terrorist plot to reduce population. 3



### In a few years we need to be back here 4


### for a hearing on increasing the state targets. 5



### Thank you

. 6



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Next 7



### I'd like to ask Jack Sears to come to the table, 8


### and then we may take another 10 minute break 9



### after Mr. Sears speaks. 10


### MR. SEARS: Good morning. My name is 11


### Jack Sears. I'm a rising sophomore majoring in 12


### biology an d public health at Colby College, and 13



### I'm from Potomac, Maryland. 14


### Climate change is the most pressing issue 15


### facing my generation and generations to come, and 16


### power plants are one of the largest contributors 17


### to this problem. This is why EPA's new rules to 18


### limit carbon pollution from power plants are so 19


### important and are a great first step in combating 20


### climate change. 21


### The young people of America are committed 22

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### to the environment and we are more than ready to 1


### let our voices be heard. We proved this at the 2



### XL Dissent protest earlier this year and will 3


### again this fall in New York at the People's 4



### Climate March. 5


### We recognize that climate change is no 6


### longer a far off issue that might potentially 7


### have implications on our lives, but that the 8


### impacts of our changes to the Earth's nutrient 9


### cycles and greenhouse effect are happening here, 10


### they're happening now, and they're affecting 11


### every single American. 12


### Here on the east coast climate change is 13


### causing sea level rise that is encroaching on our 14


### shores and making storm surges much worse. 15



### Hurricanes and storms such as Sandy serve as a 16


### healthy reminder of the impact that climate 17



### change can have. 18


### While Sandy did not directly affect me, I 19



### have seen the power and damage that such storms 20


### can cause. I got my first lesson in this subject 21


### when I was seven years old. I still remember 22

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### seeing my house, or what was left of it, for the 1



### first time after Hurricane Isabel. The 123 foot 2



### tree fell across our garage crushing a car, then 3


### it continued its fall splitting my sister's bed 4



### in two, then through my parent's headboard before 5


### coming to rest, having crushed half of my house 6


### and what could have been my entire family. 7


### I have no words to describe how lucky I 8


### am that my parents had the foresight to evacuate 9



### before the hurricane. Witho ut it, I would be the 10


### only surviving member of my family. 11


### I sit here in front of you today to 12


### remind you that while these storms have a hefty 13


### economic price tag, certain losses go beyond 14


### damaged property. The impacts of these storms 15



### cannot be overstated and if we want to avoid more 16


### storms like this we must act on climate change, 17



### and act now. 18


### The changes to our climate have an impact 19


### on our infrastructure, economy, and national 20


### security. But most importantly they impact the 21


### day to day lives of all America ns, from those 22

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### affected by stronger storms on the east coast, to 1


### more severe droughts in the Midwest and larger 2



### fires on the west coast. 3



### It's well understood that one of the 4


### largest contributors to climate change is carbon 5


### pollution and power plants are th e number one 6


### source of carbon pollution in the United States, 7


### accounting for 40 percent of all emissions. This 8


### is why EPA's new power plant rules to limit 9


### carbon emissions are so important. 10


### These rules are a great first step in 11


### combating climate change, a nd losses both 12


### economic and human that accompany it. Through 13


### these rules we as a country will make great 14


### progress towards achieving a cleaner energy 15


### future for the benefit of generations to come. 16


### We are already make great strides. 17


### Wind energy is already producing enough 18


### electricity to power 15 million homes, and in 19


### 2013 a building went solar every four minutes. 20


### This is a fantastic opportunity, not only to cut 21


### back on greenhouse gas emissions but to invest in 22

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### clean renewal energy sources for the benefit o f 1


### our economy and energy security. 2


### My generation agrees, climate change is 3


### the most important issue of our time. These 4


### rules are exactly what we need to begin 5


### addressing it, and there's no better time than 6


### right not to act on climate change. I do not 7



### n eed another tree to fall through my house to 8


### remind me of the power of climate change. I 9


### implore the EPA to finalize the Clean Power Plan. 10



### Thank you. 11



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. 12


### Okay. We're going to take about a 10 13



### minute break now. We'll reconve ne in a couple 14



### minutes. Thanks. 15



### (Recess from 11:11 a.m. until 11:27 a.m.) 16


### MS. DUNHAM: Okay. We're going to get 17


### back started again. And we have two folks I'll 18



### call to the table now, Jamie Wise and Charles 19


### Yoder. If you could join us at the table, 20



### plea se? 21


### Ms. Wise, go ahead. 22

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### MS. WISE: All right. Good morning, and 1



### thanks for this opportunity. I'm here 2


### representing Ormat Technologies an energy 3



### t echnology c ompany headquartered in Reno, Nevada, 4


### and they are also a member of the Alliance for 5



### Industrial E fficiency. 6


### In addition to their geothermal energy 7


### applications, Ormat provides a waste heat to 8


### power technology most commonly applied on natural 9


### gas pipeline compressors. 10


### Ormat has installed over 100 megawatts of 11



### clean electricity to the grid across 19 gas 12


### pipeline compressor stations in North America 13



### alone. 14


### This morning I will address the futures 15



### of the Clean Power Plan draft that relate to 16



### waste heat to power, also known as waste heat 17



### recovery. 18


### First, I commend EPA for accommodating 19



### industrial efficienc y in the draft plan. EPA 20


### provides states a lot of flexibility to define 21


### their own carbon reduction pathways. We're glad 22

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### to see that both renewable energy and industrial 1


### efficiency components that are already included 2


### and many stay renewable in energy eff iciency 3


### portfolio standards will be accommodated under 4



### the draft plan. 5


### However, the draft plan and its 6


### supporting documents do not include any explicit 7


### mention or discussion of waste heat recovery or 8


### waste heat to power. This is unfortunate because 9



### waste heat to power can be an extremely important 10


### tool for states to rely on when crafting their 11


### 111D compliance plans. 12


### Waste heat to power applications use 13



### recovered heat and steam emitted from many types 14


### of high energy industrial processes to generate 15



### electric ity. Because the process fuel is simply 16


### waste steam there are zero fuel inputs and zero 17



### fuel costs. 18



### WHP incurs zero additional emissions, 19


### carbon or otherwise. Many WHP applications 20


### including all of Ormat's pipeline units can 21



### continue operating and deliv ering power in the 22

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### event of a grid adage. This is an extremely 1


### important contribution to overall system 2


### reliability at a time when the U.S. electric grid 3


### grows increasingly vulnerable to cyber threats 4


### and extreme weather driven by climate change. 5



### The abse nce of any explicit discussion of 6


### waste heat to power in the draft rule means that 7



### states will have to read between the lines to 8


### determine whether waste heat to power is an 9



### acceptable compliance pathway. 10


### States are also left wondering how waste 11



### heat to p ower, if it is a compliance pathway, 12


### should be accounted for. Is it a type of energy 13


### efficiency or a type of zero carbon generation? 14



### EPA should amend the draft rule to 15


### explicitly call out waste heat to power as an 16



### example of a technology states can use to reduce 17


### their average Co2 intensity. 18



### Furthermore EPA should establish that 19


### waste heat to power can contribute to Co2 savings 20


### under building block three, the alternative power 21


### generation building block. 22

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### We know that in existing renewable 1


### portfolio stand ards in states, some states treat 2



### waste heat to power as a type of energy 3


### efficiency, and some treat it as a type of power 4


### generation. For the purposes of the 111D Rule 5


### waste heat to power is unequivocally a type of 6


### power generation. 7



### While WHP does incr ease the energy 8


### productivity of an industrial process, its 9


### purpose is to generate emission free electricity. 10



### Every megawatt hour of power generated from a WHP 11


### unit is a zero emission megawatt hour. It should 12



### be counted as the same as a megawatt hour 13



### gene rated from solar, wind, or geothermal. 14


### Thank you for your attention to this 15


### important issue. 16



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Mr. 17



### Yoder. 18


### MR. YODER: My name is Charles C. Yoder, 19



### spelled Y

- O

- D

- E

- R. I'm testifying for myself. 20



### I want to start by observ ing that in my 21


### view the proposed reg is economically 22

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### inefficient, or at least suboptimal in terms of 1


### the efficiency. Far more efficient would be a 2


### price or a tax on carbon. But I also recognize 3


### that that method is beyond EPA's grasp. 4



### So I commend you for coming up with an 5



### alternative to go towards our goal, which is 6



### reduced carbon emissions. 7


### I'm concerned that the flexibility built 8



### into the rule, i.e. let the states decide on how 9


### they are going to implement their pollution 10


### reduction goals can create probl ems. And I offer 11


### as an analogy, Maryland. I live in Baltimore, 12



### Maryland. Has an enacted a storm water utility 13


### fee designed to provide local jurisdictions with 14


### a mechanism for controlling run

- off pollution. 15



### Some of the counties

-- the Maryland 16


### legislatio n gives the counties the flexibility to 17


### decide how they will achieve the goal. Some of 18


### the counties will probably meet their goals and 19



### achieve the outcome desired, reduced storm water 20


### pollution. 21


### But others, well let's just say that 22

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### pollution control is n ot very high on the agenda 1



### of their elected decision makers. And I think 2


### that we can expect, at best, a mixed result in 3



### terms of the outcome. 4


### So I offer this analogy as a caution 5


### because it's outcomes, not process, that are 6


### important here. And if the in dividual 7


### jurisdictions are going to have the authority and 8


### the responsibility for achieving the goals 9


### there's going to have to be an enforcement 10


### mechanism with teeth because we can expect some 11


### of the jurisdictions to be less than enthusiastic 12


### about pursuin g this goal. 13


### And then my last point, or maybe next to 14


### the last point, will be that these regs, even if 15


### successful in every aspect, even if they achieve 16


### the goals that you intend and are successfully 17


### implemented, are not really going to be

-- are 18



### not really going to achieve the amount of carbon 19


### reduction that we will need if we are going to 20


### have a 21st Century, a 22nd Century climate that 21


### is conducive to human prosperity and health and 22

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### good life. 1


### So, while I commend EPA for taking the 2


### steps, and I wish you well in implementing them, 3


### I want you to remember that this is just a start 4


### of a journey. It's not the finish. 5


### And then the last point I would make 6


### given that I've still got a little time, is that 7



### I live in Baltimore. And Baltimore has one of 8



### the, if no t the highest rate of air pollution 9


### related respiratory disease in the country. Part 10


### of that is due to coal fired generating plants, 11


### and ideally they will have state of the art 12


### pollution control before these regs ever become 13



### effective. But if not, I hope they affect that. 14



### But I'd also urge EPA to look for other 15


### ways to reduce air pollution and transportation 16


### is an important one. And transportation

-- 17



### Baltimore is a nonattainment area. So there's 18



### two of them there; there's a hook. And Baltimore 19



### needs to reform its transportation, as does much 20


### of the country. And that could even get you into 21



### land use decisions because land use decisions 22

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### drive transportation. 1



### And at that, I'll end. 2



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Thank 3



### you to both of you. 4



### Okay. I'd like to ask Julian Boggs and 5


### Shelly Vinyard to come to the table, please. All 6


### right. Mr. Boggs, when you're ready. 7


### MR. BOGGS: Thank you. My name is Julian 8



### Boggs. That's B

- O

- G

- G

- S. I'm the Federal Global 9


### Warming Program Director with Environment 10



### Amer ica. Our executive director, Margie Hall, 11


### spoke yesterday on behalf of Environment America, 12



### our state affiliates and our members and 13


### activists. So I wanted to use my time here today 14



### to tell you about why I personally care about 15


### climate change and why the Clean Power Plan is so 16


### important to me and such an opportunity. 17


### I'm from Kentucky, and I mention that 18



### because it's

-- well, Kentuckians are proud folk 19


### and we mention it usually the first chance we 20


### get. And it's also a big part of why I'm an 21



### environmental ist. 22

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### When I think back to my formative years 1


### growing up, the experiences that shaped my values 2


### and my memories, they are of hunting for crawdads 3


### in the creek by my house with my friends, hiking 4


### in the woods outside of town, exploring the 5



### bluffs and outcr ops of Kentucky's great places, 6


### Red River Gorge, the Pinnacles near our town. 7


### Again, I'm from Berea, which is right on the 8



### foothills of the Appalachian Mountains. The 9


### Bluegrass Region meets the knobs. 10


### And Kentucky is a really beautiful state 11



### and I thin k a lot of

-- in my experience many of 12


### my neighbors and friends and family had shared 13


### those same experiences growing up and shaped 14



### their values as well. 15



### And you hear a lot that we are a coal 16


### state. And I think, you know, my home state 17



### senator may have te stified here earlier today and 18


### I'm sure he said similar things. And it's true, 19



### we are a coal state and you can see that all 20



### around you when you take the Hal Rogers Parkway 21


### out to DP String, (phonetic) Kentucky and you can 22

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### see the evidence all around you, whether the 1


### evidence that you can see, the tailings and the 2



### deforested areas, the clear cuts. And you can 3


### also see the evidence by what's not there; the 4


### mountains that were there 10 years ago but are 5


### completely flat now and maybe there's a strip 6



### mall on t hem now. 7



### And you can also see, though, Kentucky's 8


### spirit of self

- reliance. And I think this is a 9


### really important thing. All throughout Easter 10


### Kentucky folks invest in their gardens and corn 11



### and tomatoes and beans. Not because they're 12


### going to sell them to the farmer's market at 10 13


### buck a pound, but because they're going to eat 14


### them when they're ripe and actually caring for 15


### self and being self

- reliant is a huge source of 16


### pride for many Kentuckians. 17


### And I think that is why folks in my home 18



### town in Berea, Kentucky were so excited when our 19


### local utility invested in 240 panels on a very 20


### small solar farm right side out of town. And you 21


### can see people light up when they talk about it 22

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### now. In part because they're proud that our town 1



### has taken this sustainable action and they're 2


### proud that we're doing it locally, that we're in 3


### charge of it. We are taking our future into our 4



### own hands. 5


### And I think that's an incredibly 6


### important piece of the Clean Power Plan, that it 7


### empowers states and communities, ultimately, to 8



### take their future into their own hands, to build 9



### a cleaner better future for their children for 10


### future generations by investing in solar and wind 11


### and energy efficiency. 12



### And to me, this is one of the most 13


### exciting pieces of the Clean Power Plan. The 14


### solar in my hometown is very very small relative 15


### to what we consume every day for our electricity. 16



### Yet at the same time, America, with a little bit 17


### bigger nudge is on the cusp of something really 18


### great and really big. Wind energy now generates 19



### enough ele ctricity every year to power 15 million 20


### homes. We're not putting a new solar system in 21


### America every four minutes. That's a U.S. home 22

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### or business going solar every four minutes. 1


### And if you give us the tools, across the 2


### country, even in coal Kentucky, we can go further 3



### and faster the more and more solar we install, 4



### the more workers we train, the more investment we 5


### leverage, the more our supply chain scales up. 6



### So that's why I support the Clean Power 7


### Plan and specifically the piece of the Clean 8



### Power Plan t hat enables

-- allows states and 9



### allows communities to reduce their carbon 10


### pollution from power plants by investing in 11


### renewable energy, investing in solar, investing 12


### in energy efficiency. 13


### I thank you so much for your time today. 14



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you ver y much. Ms. 15


### Vinyard. 16


### MS VINYARD: Hi. My name is Shelly 17


### Vinyard. I am the Midwest Regional Director with 18



### Environment America. 19


### I'm testifying today in strong support of 20



### the Clean Power Plan and I want to talk about why 21


### the plan is important for the Mid west. But first 22

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### I'm going to talk about why it matters to me 1



### personally. 2



### So I was born and raised in a small town 3



### in south Texas called Floresville. That's about 4



### 45 minutes south of San Antonio and has about 5


### 5,000 people. And like many small towns in Te xas 6


### it centers around farming and ranching. And one 7


### of the crops that distinguishes it from other 8


### towns in Texas is the peanut. 9



### The peanut has been central to 10


### Floresville's identity for nearly 100 years. So 11


### much so that we have a huge celebration every 12



### y ear in October called the Peanut Festival. 13


### Growing up I looked forward to going to 14


### the Peanut Festival every year. Around that time 15


### all the school children got to go on a field trip 16



### to one of the local peanut farms. We spent time 17


### in class growing our own peanut plants and 18


### learning about the climate it requires to grow 19


### them. And my personal favorite part was that we 20


### got to decorate our bikes and ourselves in peanut 21


### themed regalia and march in the kid's parade. 22

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### And so it was just an integral part of my 1



### ch ildhood and many of my friends' childhoods 2



### across the town. 3


### Sadly over the last 15 years climate 4


### change has changed the landscape in Floresville 5


### and the peanut is now an endangered crop in the 6


### county. Only one peanut farm still exists, and 7


### the peanut is q uite sensitive to weather changes 8


### and Floresville has actually had two so

- called 9


### 100 year floods since 1998. And is right now in 10


### one of the worst droughts in 500 years. One that 11



### has lasted for four years. 12



### It's sad to me to think that the entire 13


### identity of our town is changing because of 14


### climate changes impacts. Kids don't take field 15


### trips to peanut farms anymore, and locally grown 16


### peanuts are now a rarity. And the Peanut 17



### Festival itself is now more of a celebration of 18


### our history than it is of our curr ent 19


### agricultural success. 20


### The thing that frustrates me is that 21


### while climate changes effects are quite clear in 22

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### Floresville, Texas is home to two of the top five 1


### most carbon polluting coal fired power plants in 2


### the country. And I decided to dedicate my ca reer 3


### to working environmental issues in part to help 4


### change that, which is why I'm so excited about 5



### the Clean Power Plan. 6



### Now I work to organize the public around 7


### issues like climate change in the Midwest. And 8



### when I talk to people there, they too are 9



### con cerns. The Great Lakes which are central to 10


### so many of the states in the Midwest are changing 11



### with the climate. 12


### The Dead Zone in Lake Erie is growing. 13



### Algae blooms are increasing. And the temperature 14


### in the water is warming, effecting the fish and 15



### wildl ife populations that depend on the Great 16



### Lakes ecosystem. 17


### But also in the Midwest I've gotten a 18


### glimpse of what's possible when we all work 19



### together to tackle one of the world's most 20


### pressing environmental issues. In Minnesota the 21



### state has become a nat ional leader in clean 22

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### energy development and use. And Governor Dayton 1


### has pledged three times in the last year to make 2



### the state completely carbon free. 3


### Global warming is affecting us all in 4


### Texas, in the Midwest, and across the country. 5



### And I believe we have an imperative to act on it 6



### now. 7



### The proposed Clean Power Plan is another 8


### example of what is possible and what we can 9


### accomplish together to solve this problem. And I 10


### hope the EPA will move as quickly as possible to 11


### finalize the plan. 12



### So thank yo u very much for your time. 13



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Now 14



### I'd like to ask Senator Sanders to come to the 15



### table. 16



### MR. SANDERS: Thank you very much for 17


### allowing me to say a few words. I don't know how 18


### you do it here. In the Senate we submit writt en 19



### statements for the record. Is that okay? 20


### MS. DUNHAM: Yes, it is. Thank you. 21


### MR. SANDERS: All right. So I'd like to 22

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### serve what I have here. I thank you for allowing 1



### me to say a few words. 2



### One of the embarrassments that I have as 3



### a United States Se nator is that while the 4


### scientific community is almost unanimous in 5


### understanding that climate change is real, that 6


### climate change is significantly caused by human 7


### activity, that climate change is already causing 8


### devastating problems in our country and 9



### thr oughout the world in terms of floods and 10


### drought and we're seeing the forest fires in 11


### unprecedented levels, and forest fires in the 12


### western part of our country in terms of extreme 13


### weather disturbances, in terms of rising sea 14


### levels and threatening major Am erican cities and 15


### countries all over the world, despite all of the 16


### evidence, it is embarrassing to me to tell you 17



### the truth, that there are many members, many 18



### members of the United States Congress heavily 19


### influenced, I believe, by the fossil fuel 20


### industry who refuse to recognize science. 21


### And while it is fine that people disagree 22

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### on any and every issue, we should be a people 1


### that listens to scientists and develop public 2


### policy from that scientific evidence. 3



### I welcome the EPA's efforts to begin

-- I 4



### should also mention to you that I represent the 5



### State of Vermont; a state which is one of the 6


### most beautiful states in the country; a state 7


### that is strongly supportive of environmental 8


### efforts to protect our environment and 9



### understands that there will be horrendo us changes 10


### in our country and in the State of Vermont unless 11


### we cut carbon emissions and transform our energy 12



### system. 13


### There is some studies that suggest, 14


### according to the U.S. National Climate Assessment 15


### released in May, the average global temperature 16



### has increased by more than 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit 17


### between 1980 and 2012, and temperatures in 18


### Vermont and New England have increased at least 19



### two and a half degrees Fahrenheit just in the 20


### last 30 years. I mean, this is really 21


### extraordinary. 22

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### By the year 2100 Ne w England could be as 1



### much as 10 degrees hotter, and there are some 2


### suggestions out there, some studies that suggest 3



### that the climate of the State of Vermont, the 4



### temperature of the State of Vermont could be 5


### where Georgia is now by the year 2090. I mean, 6


### that's just hard to imagine. 7


### Vermont celebrates and enjoys four 8


### beautiful seasons. Our agriculture is based on 9


### four beautiful seasons. A lot of our economy is 10



### based on four different seasons, and the idea 11



### that would be Georgia's temperature in the year 12



### 2090 is unthinkable. 13



### The EPA's proposed carbon pollution 14


### standards will address to a significant degree, 15


### carbon pollution from power plants by setting 16


### state by state carbon pollution limits. By 2030 17



### the standards are expected to reduce U.S. power 18



### plant c arbon pollution by 30 percent compared to 19


### 2005 levels. That's equivalent to the annual 20



### emissions from more than 150 million cars, or 21



### almost two

- thirds of the nation's passenger 22

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### vehicles, or the annual emissions from powering 1



### 65 million homes, over half th e homes in America. 2


### The EPA's proposal creates specific 3


### carbon pollution targets for each state, 4


### something that I strongly support. But every 5


### state has broad flexibility to design a plan that 6


### fits its own circumstances using a mix of energy 7


### efficiency , re newable energy, improving the 8


### efficiency of existing plants and other 9


### strategies. 10


### What I can tell you is in a cold weather 11



### state like Vermont we have already made 12


### significant progress in weatherizing many, many, 13



### many thousands of homes. And you know wha t the 14



### result of that has been? In Rutland County, for 15



### example, there has been a federally funded 16


### project which will result in 1,000 homes being 17


### weatherized. The result of that is a 32 percent 18



### reduction in the use of fossil fuel. The result 19



### of that is si gnificant reductions in fuel costs 20


### for customers, something that they appreciate 21



### very much, and the result of that is the creating 22

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### of significant numbers of jobs. 1


### So I think if we are serious, obviously 2


### the proposal that is coming from the EPA is a 3


### very im portant step forward. But in addition to 4


### that we need to invest very heavily in energy 5


### efficiency and in weatherization. There are 6


### millions of homes throughout this country that 7


### could see a significant reduction in their carbon 8


### emissions if people had th e resources to 9



### weatherize. And when we do that we also create 10


### many, many good paying jobs. 11


### You have heard testimony, no doubt, about 12


### the potential of wind, the potential of solar, 13


### the potential of geotherma l, the potential in New 14


### England, of bio mass. 15



### The bottom line is that if we, as a 16


### nation, are going to lead the world in addressing 17


### the major planetary crisis that we face, which is 18


### global warming, in my view we have to completely 19


### transform our energy system away from fossil fuel 20


### into energy efficien cy, into weatherization, and 21


### into such sustainable energies as wind, solar, 22

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### goes thermal bio mass, and other technologies 1



### which will only improve and expand as we do more 2



### research in those area. 3



### I think if we do not address this crisis 4


### today our children and our grandchildren will 5


### look back on this period and we will be judged by 6


### history in an extremely negative way. The 7


### scientists tell us we have a window, not a very 8


### long window, a reasonable short period of time in 9


### order to get this right. And I believ e that if 10


### our country goes forward with proposals coming 11



### out of the EPA today and much more, we can lead 12


### the world and set an example for China, India, 13



### Russia, and other countries. 14



### And by the way when we do that, we can 15


### create significant numbers of jobs

. 16


### Now I will tell you frankly that I think 17


### the EPA's proposal is a good start. In my view 18



### we have to go further. Senator Barbara Boxer and 19


### I have legislation which calls for a carbon tax, 20


### which is something that I think we desperately 21



### need. 22

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### So I want t o applaud the EPA for coming 1


### up with its standards, for giving states 2


### flexibility in addressing the issue. But this is 3


### a planetary crisis and we have got to move and 4


### move aggressively and move as quickly as we 5


### possibly can. So thank you very much for the 6


### opportunity and I will leave you with the full 7



### statement. 8



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. 9



### MR. SANDERS: Thank you. Thanks very 10



### much. 11



### MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Okay. 12


### I think that concludes our morning session. We 13



### will now take a lunch break a nd the hearing will 14


### reconvene this afternoon at 1:00. So, thank you 15



### all. 16



### (Lunch break from 11:53 a.m. until 1:02 17



### p.m.) 18



### MR. PAGE: We want to welcome everybody. 19


### Thank you for coming to this hearing on the 20


### proposed carbon pollution plan and the proposed 21



### c arbon pollution standards for modified and 22

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### reconstructed power plants. My name is Steve 1


### Page and I'm the Director of the Office of Air 2


### Quality Planning and Standards in North Carolina, 3



### associated with the Office of Air and Radiation, 4



### the office that was r esponsible for producing the 5



### proposal. 6



### And I've got two co

- chairs. Our panel of 7


### chairs with me, and I'm going to ask them to 8



### introduce themselves. 9


### MR. SOLOMON: My name is David Solomon. 10


### I also work for the Office of Air Quality 11


### Planning and Standards. 12


### MR. SHERRY: And my name is Chris Sherry. 13


### I'm in the Office of Atmospheric Programs. 14


### MR. PAGE: All righty. We're ready to 15


### get started. I would like to read a prepared 16


### statement that we use to begin every one of our 17


### sessions. First of all it gives a little bit of 18


### context to the hearing today, and also provides 19


### some guidelines t o make sure that the hearing 20


### proceeds smoothly. So I'll begin with that. And 21



### then we'll look forward to taking comments. 22

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### We're here today to listen to your 1



### comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 2


### pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 3



### of these proposed rules on June 2nd, 2014. 4



### Power plants are the largest source of 5


### carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 6


### roughly one third of all domestic greenhouse g as 7



### emissions. 8


### The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 9


### Power Plan for existing power plants. The rule 10


### consists of two main parts, state specific goals 11


### to lower carbon pollution from power plants, and 12


### guidelines to help states develop their plans for 13


### meeting the goals. 14


### The proposal gives states flexibility in 15


### determining how to meet their goals. States will 16


### choose what goes into their plans and show how 17


### they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 18


### their goals by 2030. 19


### The second rule is EPA's propose d rule to 20



### address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 21


### and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 22

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### set emission limits for two groups of power 1


### plants, those that make physical or operational 2


### changes that increase the plant's maximum 3



### achievable hourl y rate of emissions, and those 4



### that replace components to such an extent that 5



### the new components exceed 50 percent of the 6


### capital cost of an entirely new comparable 7


### facility. 8



### If you want more details on either of 9



### those proposed rules, there are fact sheets 10


### available near the registration desk. 11


### Today's hearing is one of four public 12


### hearings EPA is holding across the country this 13



### week on the two proposed rules. We have had 14


### tremendous interest in each of the hearings. We 15


### have many people signed up to speak h ere today 16



### and we want to hear from all of you. So before 17



### we get started I'll go through a few ground rules 18


### that will help make the hearings run smoothly. 19


### First, please be sure that you've checked 20


### in at the registration desk, even if you're 21


### planning to spe ak today. And if you signed up to 22

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### speak online or by phone but haven't told us that 1



### you're here please step out to the registration 2



### desk and let the EPA staff know that you've 3



### arrived. 4


### Second, if you are a speaker you were 5


### given a room letter when you che cked in. Room A 6


### or B. This is Room A. If you're not in the 7


### right room now is a good time to switch. 8


### All right. This is how we will proceed 9


### with today's hearing. I will call the speakers 10


### up in pairs. When your name is called please 11



### come to the tabl e at the front of the room, right 12


### in front of us. When I call on you to speak 13


### please state your name and spell it for the court 14



### reporter. 15



### Your comments will be transcribed and 16



### included in the record of comments on the 17


### proposed rule. Each speaker will h ave five 18


### minutes to give comments. We have a light to 19


### help you know how much time you have left to 20


### speak. When the light turns from green to yellow 21


### that means you have one minute remaining. When 22

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### it turns red that's a signal to wrap up your 1


### testimony. 2


### The light will flash red and beep when 3


### you have spoken for five minutes and it is time 4



### to stop. 5


### When you're finished speaking please 6



### remain at the table until the person next to you 7



### has completed his or her testimony. We are here 8


### to listen to you today, however a panel member 9


### may ask you questions to clarify comments that 10


### you make or ask you to submit material for the 11


### record that you may have brought with you. 12


### After the two speakers have spoken I will 13


### then call up the next pair of speakers, and so 14



### on. I f you've brought a written copy you can 15


### either give it to us or you can drop it off at 16


### the desk in the front before you leave today. 17



### Because of the large number of people who have 18


### signed up to speak today, and to be fair to 19


### everyone, we are going to stric tly enforce the 20



### five minute limit. 21


### If you have additional comments you want 22

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### to make you can submit them in writing. And let 1


### me assure you that EPA gives just as much 2


### consideration to comments we receive in writing 3


### as we do to comments received at public h earings 4


### like this one. So if you have more that you 5


### would like to say, please submit it. Your 6



### comments will be reviewed. 7


### There's still plenty of time to get 8



### written comments in. There are comment cards 9


### available at the registration desk where you came 10



### i n. Comments must be received by October 16th, 11


### 2014. We'll put any written comments submitted 12


### today in the official docket for the proposed 13


### ruling. 14


### Instructions for submitting written 15


### comments in other ways are available at the 16



### materials table near the r egistration desk. 17


### We are scheduled to go until 8:00 18


### tonight. We'll take our break probably around 19


### the 5:00 p.m. time frame so folks can get some 20


### food. In addition, depending on the flow of the 21


### speakers we may take some additional breaks as 22

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### the day goes o n, but we'll keep you posted about 1



### that. 2


### If you have any questions about this 3


### hearing or any aspect of the hearing please see 4


### the staff at the registration desk and someone 5


### will try to help you. 6


### Finally, I want to ask each of you to 7



### please be respectful of everyone who speaks 8


### today. We have people with a wide variety of 9



### views in the audience and we want to hear from 10



### all of them. 11



### So that everyone can be heard we ask that 12


### everyone listen quietly. Even applause can slow 13


### things down and we want to hear from everyone who 14


### is signed up to speak. 15


### Thank you again for taking the time today 16



### to share your comments on EPA's proposed rules. 17



### Let's get started. 18


### The first speakers that are signed up for 19



### this afternoon are Tom Carlson and Zabrina 20


### Arnovitz. Very good. And again, a reminder, 21



### please spell your name for the court reporter, 22

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### and if I have mangled a pronunciation I would 1


### appreciate being corrected so we know. All 2


### right? 3


### Mr. Carlson, your first up. 4


### MR. CARLSON: Sure thing. 5



### MR. PAGE: Uh

- huh. 6



### MR. CARLSON: Good afternoon. My name is 7



### Tom Carlson, and that's spelled T

- O

- M C

- A

- R

- L

- S

8



### O

- N. 9



### I am the Government Affairs Policy 10


### Associate with Advanced Energy Economy. AEE is a 11


### national association of businesses making the 12



### energy we use secure, clean, and affordabl e. AEE 13


### also leads a sate coalition consisting of 15 14


### partner organizations active in 23 states across 15


### the country and representing more than 1,000 16


### companies and organizations. And just to let you 17


### know I'm going to be speaking relatively quickly 18



### to get the comments in. So forgive me for that. 19


### But that being said, AEE strongly 20


### supports EPA's draft rule for reducing carbon 21


### emissions from electric power plants under 22

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### Section 111D of the Clean Air Act, also known as 1



### the Clean Power Plan. 2



### At the same time AEE se es a number of 3


### ways this proposal could be improved . The final 4


### rule should build on its solid foundation by 5


### strengthening the targets set for advanced energy 6



### tec hn ologies, allowing periodic review of targets 7


### to reflect technological progress and rewarding 8


### early use of these technologies. 9


### We also ask that EPA specifically 10


### recognizes compliance options. All 40 of the 11


### technologies identified in our recent report , 12


### it's right here, called Advanced Energy 13


### Technologies for Greenhouse Gas Reduction. 14



### AEE believes that EPA's Clean Power Plan 15


### provides a historic opportunity to modernize our 16


### electric power system for the 21st Century. This 17


### rule will drive investment in electric power 18


### system that is sorely in need of it. Many of the 19


### technologies that are already cha nging the U.S. 20


### power system also help reduce carbon emissions. 21


### Our recent report mentioned before 22

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### details 40 separate technologies including energy 1


### efficiency, demand response, natural gas 2


### electricity generation, solar, wind, hydro power, 3



### nuclear, smart gr id, and energy storage. AEE 4



### applauds EPA for referencing by name many of 5


### these technologies in its proposal. 6


### We urge EPA to further clarify the value 7



### of these technologies by recognizing all 40 of 8


### the options identified in this report. 9


### Now already by in cluding so many of these 10



### established and market

- tested technologies, EPA 11


### has made the targets it sets for states easy to 12



### achieve. 13



### Nonetheless , advanced energy can 14



### contribute more to emissions reduction and 15


### electric system modernization. Specifically the 16



### Clean Power Plan underestimates the potential 17


### contribution of advanced technologies, especially 18


### renewable energy and energy efficiency. Natural 19


### gas, which is inexpensive, abundant and cleaner 20


### than other fossil fuel sources, EPA rightly 21



### identifies underut ilized natural gas generating 22

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### capacity as a resource for emissions reduction. 1


### The draft also acknowledges the benefits of the 2


### existing zero emission nuclear power fleet. 3


### We are still evaluating how these 4


### resources were incorporated into the plan and 5



### whe ther their value is appropriately recognized. 6


### We have specific concerns about the 7


### treatment of renewables and energy efficiency. 8



### For renewable energy the draft rule sets targets 9


### based on averages of existing state policies, and 10


### then applies the 2020 ave rages as state targets 11



### for 2030. This re sul ts in targets that are 12


### overly conservative in light of the scale of 13


### available renewable energy resources, and the 14


### rapid rate of market growth due to technological 15


### improvement and falling costs. 16



### In Minnesota, fo r example, the 2030 17


### renewables target is set at 15 percent, when the 18


### state already obtained 18 percent of its 19


### electricity from nonhydro renewables in 2012. 20



### Arizona, which has one of the richest solar 21


### resources in the country is assigned a renewable 22

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### energy target of just four percent in 2030. 1


### EPA should revise its methodology for 2


### renewable energy based on resource availability 3



### and market realities. 4


### On energy efficiency, AEE can validate 5


### the one and a half percent per year savings rate 6



### for electric utili ty administered programs. 7


### Based on industry experience AEE sees this rate 8


### of energy conservation as reasonable and 9



### sustainable. It will reduce emissions and 10


### produce millions of dollars of savings for 11



### consumers. 12


### But again, more can be expected of energy 13



### e fficiency that is currently captured in the 14


### Agency's calculations. Efficiency targets set by 15


### the draft rule are based exclusively on utilities 16



### sponsored programs created by state energy 17


### efficiency standards. They do not account for 18


### the considerable priva te sector energy efficiency 19


### investments made outside of utility programs. So 20


### similar to the renewable target the draft rule 21


### uses 2012 efficiency market figures for 2017 22

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### targets, ignoring the progress states are making 1


### year after year. In the final rule, the targets 2


### for energy efficiency should be strengthened. 3


### EPA should make two additional changes in 4



### the structure of the Clean Power Plan. The 5


### agency should give full credit to emission 6


### reductions achieved by projects that are 7


### completed prior to 2020. Th is will encourage 8


### rather than discourage early action towards state 9


### targets and stimulate investment. 10


### Finally, EPA should also provide for 11


### periodic updates of the standard in order to 12


### reflect the progress that is already taking place 13


### in emission reducing technologies, and will only 14


### accelerate in response to the EPA rule. 15


### Thank you again for giving AEE the 16


### opportunity to comment today. 17



### MR. PAGE: Thank you, Mr. Carlson. Are 18


### you going to leave us with a copy of that report 19



### or submit it? 20



### MR. CARLSON: Hap py to. Happy to leave 21



### it. 22

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### MR. PAGE: Okay. If you will

-- 1



### MR. CARLSON: It's online as well. Leave 2


### it up there. 3


### MR. PAGE: Terrific. Thank you very 4



### much. 5



### MR. CARLSON: No problem. Thanks a lot. 6


### MR. PAGE: Appreciate your comments. 7



### MR. CARLSON: Than k you. 8



### MR. PAGE: Zabrina. 9



### MS. ARNOVITZ: Hi. So Zabrina Arnovitz, 10



### Z

- A

- B

- R

- I

- N

- A A

- R

- N

- O

- V

- I

- T

- Z. 11


### Thank you for having me here today and 12


### for allowing me to submit my comments. 13


### I grew up in a small town just outside of 14



### Cleveland, Ohio. Cleveland and the s urrounding 15


### area is one of many places around the country 16


### that has bad air quality days. When I was a 17


### little girl, sometimes on a seemingly nice summer 18


### day my mom wouldn't allow me to go outside and 19


### play. I didn't understand how or why the air 20



### wasn't okay for me to go out and play in, but I 21


### thought it was a normal thing that occurred 22

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### during the summer months. 1


### Then I grew up and joined the Sierra 2



### Club's Beyond the Coal Campaign. I learned that 3


### I live in a nonattainment zone, meaning that the 4



### concentration of one or more air pollutants in a 5


### geographic area exceeds the regulated adequate 6


### margin for safety for one or more of the national 7


### ambient air quality standards. 8


### This rule will help us clean up our air, 9


### and because no child should have to play inside 10



### on a nice summer day I'm here in support of the 11



### Clean Power Plan. 12


### But I'd also like to say that I know that 13



### you guys can do better and you can do more, and I 14


### encourage you to take this as a first step into 15


### leading to more fuel efficiency and higher 16



### standards . Thank you. 17



### MR. PAGE: Okay. Thank you both for your 18


### testimony. We appreciate you coming here today. 19



### Next speakers are James Duffy and Herb 20



### Simmens. Mr. Duffy, when you're ready. 21


### MR. DUFFY: Good morning. James Duffy, 22

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### D

- U

- F

- F

- Y. 1



### Good afternoon. As I said, my name is 2


### James Duffy. I am an attorney with the Clean Air 3



### Task Force. On behalf of the Clean Air Task 4


### Force I want to commend EPA for taking this 5


### important step to reduce carbon pollution from 6


### existing power plants, the nation's largest 7



### source of anthropogenic carbon dioxide. 8


### Issuing carbon dioxide standards for 9


### existing fossil fueled fired power plants is 10


### clearly within EPA's authority under the Clean 11


### Air Act. And indeed it's required by the statute 12



### in conjunction with the EPA's proposed ne w and 13



### modified source standards for carbon dioxide in 14


### this industry. 15


### The need to achieve greenhouse gas 16


### reductions is immediate and we applaud the Agency 17


### for taking this step. Carbon dioxide contributes 18


### significantly to climate change and climate 19


### change i nduced harms to public health and 20



### welfare. Drought and related adverse effects on 21


### our agriculture systems and water supplies, 22

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### increases in serious insect borne illnesses like 1


### Lyme Disease, the increase in severe weather and 2



### weather related events like wil dfires and 3


### flooding, increased ground

- level ozone and 4



### adverse effects on wildlife and ecosystems. 5


### The pollutant's characteristics highlight 6


### the pressing need to immediately reduce carbon 7



### dioxide emissions. Uncontrolled fossil fuel 8


### fired electric generatin g plants emit carbon 9


### dioxide in large amounts and they're very long

10



### lived. 11


### A significant percentage of each ton 12


### emitted remains aloft causing climate harms for 13



### thousands of years. That fact alone makes near 14



### term reductions imperative in order to mitigat e 15


### the effects of continuing dangerous rates of 16


### accumulation and associated damage. 17


### CATF, like others, is currently working 18


### through the details of this complex proposal. My 19


### comments today are based on our preliminary 20


### analysis of the Clean Power Plan and wi ll be 21


### supplemented with written comments this fall. 22

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### The state goals EPA developed under the 1


### plan are reasonable. That is true for the state 2


### goals based on EPA's four BSER building blocks, 3


### and the state goals requiring near term 4



### reductions based on the BSE R building blocks, one 5



### and two. 6


### Indeed, CATF has modeled an existing 7


### source performance standard approach that is 8


### similar to EPA's proposed BSER building blocks 9



### one and two. 10



### We found there that there is sufficient 11


### underutilized existing and efficient gen eration 12


### from natural gas power plants to displace 13


### generation from high emission rate coal fire 14


### powered plants, achieving near term carbon 15



### dioxide reductions very cost effectively. 16


### Indeed in many states we see the 17


### opportunity for greater average availabilit y of 18



### underutilized natural gas power

-- natural gas 19


### generation, greater than the 70 percent ceiling 20



### that EPA has proposed. 21


### On the implementation side many states 22

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### have the option of retrofitting existing power 1


### plants with carbon capture, utilization, and 2



### st orage, either using enhanced oil recovery or 3


### saline sequestration. 4


### Retrofit CCS technology is available and 5


### demonstrated and can provide significant carbon 6


### reductions. The Boundary Dam Power Plant 7


### retrofit project in Canada has now begun 8


### producing power, for example. This project and 9


### Southern Company's Kemper County CCS retrofit 10


### project in Mississippi are both nearing 11


### completion. The captured carbon dioxide from 12



### these projects will be used in ongoing EOR 13


### activity. States like Texas, Oklahoma, 14



### Louisiana , Mississippi, Kansas and other have 15


### existing power plants, both coal and gas fired, 16



### that may be candidates for retrofits and are 17


### located near EOR sequestration opportunities. 18


### For example, plans are moving forward to 19



### retrofit the W.A. Parish Plant in Houst on, Texas 20


### and begin capturing Co2 in 2016. 21


### Midwestern states also have existing 22

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### plants that may be candidates for retrofits and 1


### are near saline sequestration opportunities. 2


### For example the Future Gen 2.0 Project 3


### retrofit to an existing power plant in Il linois 4


### plans to come online in 2017. 5


### Finally, EPA must require states to 6


### achieve real permanent, enforceable, and 7



### verifiable carbon dioxide reductions from 8


### existing sources in this industry. To that end 9



### CATF supports a mass

- base compliance made easier 10



### for states by EPA issuing a model rule to allow 11


### the maximum number of states to take advantage of 12


### the efficiencies of broad interstate trading. 13



### A mass

- based approach is an efficient and 14


### effective mechanism for achieving enforceable 15


### pollution reductions and one with which many 16


### states already have experience. 17


### I thank you for this opportunity to 18


### comment on this critically important plan and 19



### this historic rule. CATF looks forward to 20


### continuing its work with the Agency to ensure 21


### that a clean power plant achiev es meaningful 22

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### carbon pollution reductions from the existing 1



### fleet. Thank you. 2



### MR. PAGE: Thank you, Mr. Duffy. Mr. 3



### Simmens. 4


### MR. SIMMENS: Okay. Yes, my name is Herb 5


### Simmens, spelled H

- E

- R

- B S

- I

- M

- M

- E

- N

- S. I live 6


### here in Washington and at one time I was the head 7



### of long range planning for the State of New 8


### Jersey under your former administrator, Christine 9



### Todd

- Whitman. So I've been involved in many of 10


### these issues for many many years. I'd like to 11



### speak on my behalf and no one else's today. 12



### As I'm sure y ou know, EPA has quite a 13


### daunting challenge here because I sort of see it 14



### as a kind of dual nature or bifocal. On the one 15



### hand you need to be as you have been, extremely 16


### competent at the technical, at the legal, at the 17


### economic issues to make sure they're both sound, 18


### implementable, and withstand legal and political 19



### challenge. 20


### And at the other hand you're dealing with 21


### an issue and a set of regulations that, while 22

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### it's difficult for me not to speak in hyp er bole, 1



### it's hard to imagine something more important for 2


### the future of this country, and indeed of the 3


### world. And you know, this is a keystone rule and 4


### we're a keystone country if not the keystone 5


### country in the world where this climate change 6


### can be no more important an issue. Sadly, but 7



### nonetheless true. 8


### And so I just urge, as EPA and the 9


### Administration and any future administrations 10



### deal with this, that you keep both eyes on the 11


### ball if you will; the eye on the big picture. 12


### This is not just another regulation that affects 13



### some small narrow interest grou p that will scream 14



### and yell. Of course, like all interest groups 15


### do. But it affects every one of us here in the 16



### world and every one of us to be born and every 17


### animal and plant and creation. And, you know, I 18


### certainly did not come today with any technica l 19


### issues. I trust you all to have the expertise 20


### that you need to do. I just make a couple quick 21



### comments. 22

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### One is that I think as much as possible 1


### these guidelines or standards should be floors 2


### rather than ceilings, that you should build in 3



### incentives whe rever possible for states and other 4


### entities to exceed them, exceed them rapidly and 5


### vigorously, and that you have a combination of 6


### both carbon caps and reductions in carbon 7


### intensity, not just one or the other, so that no 8


### one gets a free ride because of w hat they've 9


### accomplished or haven't accomplished in the past. 10


### And finally I'll just say that a comment 11



### that I read recently by the governor of 12


### Washington, I thought sort of summed it up. 13


### We're the first generation to feel the effects of 14


### climate change. A nd we may well be the last 15


### generation to be able to do anything about it 16


### significantly. 17



### Thank you. 18



### MR. PAGE: Thank you very much. Thank 19


### you both for coming today. 20


### All righty. Our next speakers are Alex 21


### Trebatoski. You're going to have to help me with 22

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### that one, Alex. And Suzanne Barth. 1



### Trebatoski. Trebatoski. How about that? 2



### Was that closer? 3


### MR. TREBATOSKI: That's right. 4


### MR. PAGE: All right. Why don't you 5


### tell us how to pronounce it? 6



### MR. TREBATOSKI: Okay. I'm Alex 7



### Trebatoski, A

- L

- E

- X T

- R

- E

- B

- A

- T

- O

- S

- K

- I. 8



### MR. PAGE: Very good. 9


### MR. TREBATOSKI: So again, I'm Alex 10


### Trebatoski. I’m a 21 year old student at the 11


### College of St. Benedict and St. John's 12


### University. And today I'm here in support of the 13



### EPA's Clean Power Plan. 14



### Around the country we are seeing the 15


### effects of air pollution on our country. From 16


### climate change to asthma attacks the negative 17


### consequences of air pollution are everywhere. 18



### These consequences are not 20 or 30 years down 19


### the road, but right here, right now. 20



### There is no more pressing threat to the 21


### security of the American people or the people 22

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### around the world than climate change and the 1


### negative effects it brings on. 2


### In my native Wisconsin we have seen 3



### destructive tornados, increased rain fall, and 4



### strange temperature var iations. These make it 5


### hard to enjoy the beautiful places like the 6



### Schlitz Audubon Center in Northern Milwaukee 7


### where I like to spend a lot of time. 8


### In Minnesota where I go to school we have 9


### also seen our share of extreme weather. Right 10



### now communities i n Minnesota are still drying out 11


### from the extreme floods they had earlier this 12


### summer based on extremely heavy rain fall. This 13



### only adds on to the extreme weather we 14


### experienced this winter when we had bitter cold 15



### and huge snowfalls. 16



### That caused school to be canceled maybe 17


### six times over the year because the 18


### administrators at my school felt it wasn't safe 19



### for students to be outside. 20



### Extreme weather is on the rise around the 21



### whole country, though. It's fueled by carbon 22

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### emissions and climate changes alterin g the very 1


### nature of the places we live. It is clear that 2


### all around the country people and communities are 3


### being hit hard by climate change and action must 4


### be taken. Stopping climate change is not about 5


### protecting polar bears or empowering an imperial 6



### p residency, but instead ensuring the security of 7


### every day Americans. 8



### People from the east coast who had to 9



### face Superstorm Sandy, people from the Gulf coast 10


### who have to face increased hurricanes, people 11


### from the Pacific Northwest who have to face huge 12



### wild fires. Government inaction and industry 13


### misinformation are costing this country dearly in 14


### both blood and treasure. The jury is not out. 15


### Climate change is real. Carbon pollution is

-- 16


### or carbon pollution is part of the problem. It's 17


### affecting us now an d something needs to be done. 18


### At my school we just retired our coal 19


### fired boilers from our power plant. This is 20


### emblematic of a trend around the country where 21


### air pollution is being recognized as something 22

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### that needs to be reduced, and we need to strive 1



### f or common sense solutions to this problem. 2



### If a small school in the woods of 3


### Minnesota can combat climate change, Washington 4



### can too. 5


### Luckily, while others in Washington are 6


### twiddling their thumbs, the EPA has decided to 7


### take action. This rule is a hug e step towards 8


### combating climate change and will serve as an 9


### example for the rest of the world. This is not 10


### just an environmental issue but a national 11


### security issue and I would like to thank all of 12



### those at the EPA who have made this rule 13


### possible, inclu ding Administrator McCarthy and 14


### President Obama. Thank you. 15


### MR. PAGE: Thank you for your testimony. 16



### MS. BARTH: Suzanne Barth, S

- U

- Z

- A

- N

- N

- E 17



### B

- A

- R

- T

- H. 18


### Good afternoon, I would like to begin by 19


### thanking the EPA for providing this opportunity 20


### to partici pate in the public dialog on the newly 21



### proposed Clean Power Plan. 22

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### My name is Suzanne Barth. I'm a student 1



### at Wellesley College and I'm 20 years old. For 2


### nearly my entire life global warming has been a 3


### constant fixture in the public discourse, and a 4



### rec urring topic of conversation at my family's 5



### kitchen table. 6


### And so the realty of global warming was 7


### introduced to me at a very young age. In 8


### elementary and middle school I learned about the 9


### greenhouse effect, how certain gasses like 10


### carbon, when pumped i nto the atmosphere in excess 11


### contribute to our planet's changing climate. 12


### Young as I was it was difficult for me at first 13



### to connect these lofty concepts to real world 14


### impacts. 15


### But I have grown up in a time that has 16


### made this connection far too easy. Th e victims 17


### of inaction on climate change were never further 18


### away than my television screen and never closer 19


### than right beside me as we walked together 20


### through the streets of their still devastated 21


### town nearly six months after Hurricane Sandy. 22

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### Stronger and stronger storms have been 1


### devastating communities from New Jersey to my 2



### home state of Missouri. I have been fortunate in 3


### my life thus far. My home has not been claimed 4


### by sea level rise or leveled by the winds of 5


### tornado. But I am painfully aware that not all 6


### have been so lucky. Nor am I entitled to the 7


### continuation of my good fortune. 8


### Here I am, poised to enter my junior year 9


### of college. Nearly a decade has passed since my 10


### first rudimentary lessons in the greenhouse 11



### effect. And at last my government has proposed 12


### limits on carbon pollution from one of the 13


### biggest sources, our power plants. 14


### I'm not here to ask why it has taken so 15


### long, for I know the road down which this 16


### regulation has traveled is one plagued with the 17


### potholes of partisan politics. I am here only to 18


### implore the EPA to finalize this rule and ensure 19


### America's leadership in mitigating the damage we 20


### have already incurred upon our climate and 21


### restoring hope for the future of my generation 22

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### and all those that follow. Thanks. 1



### MR. PAGE: Than k you both for your 2


### testimony today. I appreciate it. 3



### Our next speakers are Mary Feeherry and 4



### William Rosenow. 5



### Ms. Feeherry when you're ready. 6



### MS. FEEHERRY: Go first. Hello. I'm 7


### Mary Feeherry, F, like Frank, E

- E

- H

- E

- R

- R

- Y. 8



### Thank you for the opportu nity to speak in 9



### support of the Clean Power Plan. The Clean Power 10


### Plan has the potential to reduce harmful carbon 11


### emissions that are changing our global climate. 12



### I'm a resident of the District of 13



### Columbia, I'm a member of the Sierra Club, and 14



### the Audubon Society, and I'm an interpreter at 15



### the Bird House at the Smithsonian National Zoo. 16


### I have a particular interest in the 17


### effects of climate change on our bird life. 18


### Especially on the 60 percent of North American 19


### birds that shift their ranges with the seas ons

. 20


### These birds are dealing with the climate crisis 21



### that grows worse each year. 22

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### An example is the Ruby Throated Humming 1



### Bird that we see in our flowerbeds or feeders in 2


### the summer. Soon this tiny bird will be 3


### traveling a thousand miles over land, moun tains, 4



### and water to its winter home in Mexico or Central 5


### America. Stopping along the way to rest and eat. 6


### Migratory birds like this have depended 7


### on the same system of breeding, wintering, and 8


### stop over sites for thousands of years. Climate 9



### change has disrupted this system and scientists 10


### tell us that birds we love may become extinct in 11



### our lifetimes. 12


### Migratory birds move through different 13


### habitats. They nest in the north in summer, 14


### migrate south when the weather turns cold, and 15


### pass through many diff erent habitats in their 16


### migration. Their journeys have always been 17


### dangerous, but now they are also at risk from 18


### climate change at each of these habitats. 19


### Because the climate is changing spring is 20


### arriving earlier in the northern states when 21


### migratory bir ds nest. And the birds may arrive 22

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### when caterpillars and other insects they depend 1


### on to feed their young are not available. 2



### In coastal areas climate change is 3


### causing rising sea levels and destroying beaches 4



### and marshes where sea birds nest. 5



### Further n orth in the arctic, migratory 6


### birds that build nests on the ground are finding 7


### that in the changing climate trees are growing in 8


### what was formerly treeless tundra. Migrants that 9


### nest in pine trees in the arctic are losing 10


### nesting sites be deciduous forest s are moving up 11


### the mountains, crowding out the Alpine forest 12


### that provide nesting sites. 13


### On their migratory routs birds also 14


### encounter new threats. As the climate changes, 15



### they are vulnerable to heat waves
, droughts , and 16



### unseasonable cold

- snaps. 17



### Global climate change is also increasing 18


### the number and intensity of wildfires , making it 19



### difficult for migrating birds to find safe forest 20



### areas to rest and feed. And as the oceans warm, 21


### marine life that migrating birds depend on is 22

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### less available. Fewer hors eshoe crabs are 1


### washing up on the Delaware beaches where they Red 2


### Knots stop on the long migration from the South 3



### to the North Pole. 4


### Violent storms are impacting bird life 5



### locally. Close to home I recently came to the 6


### Dyke Marsh, a national park in Virgin ia where I 7


### meet with fellow birders every Sunday. Migrating 8


### birds nest here and they stop over here on their 9


### journeys farther north. 10



### We were horrified to find dozens of trees 11


### in this bird friendly park cut down by a 12


### significant storm that destroyed bird's nests and 13


### required the park to spend its limited resources 14


### on extensive clean up. 15


### EPA is offering each state an opportunity 16


### to develop an individual plan to counter the 17


### effects of global climate change, by reducing 18


### carbon emissions from their power plants . Every 19


### state provides habitats for migrating birds and 20


### can benefit by addressing the problems of global 21


### climate change. 22

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### Why should we care? Birds are not just 1


### beautiful. They are a critical link in our 2


### ecosystem. We depend on birds to control many 3



### i nsect pests and to pollinate many plants. We 4


### cannot duplicate their role in seed dispersal, or 5


### in pest and parasite control. 6


### Birds have long been recognized as 7



### indicators of environmental health. We all know 8


### about the canary in the coal mine. The fate of 9


### our migratory birds is bound up with our own 10


### fate. Neither of our species can survive in a 11


### carbon polluted world. We ignore their peril at 12


### our own peril. What we do today will affect our 13


### planet, our bird life, and ourselves for 14



### centuries to come. W e can and must reduce carbon 15


### pollution. We need the Clean Power Plan. Thank 16



### you. 17


### MR. PAGE: Thank you for your testimony. 18



### MR. ROSENOW: Thank you for the 19


### opportunity of testifying at this gathering. All 20



### of us present are deeply grateful for the work 21



### t hat you are doing. 22

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### We want the EPA to know that many of the 1


### churches of our nation are willing to assist you 2



### care for the Earth. We are keenly aware that the 3


### biblical directive we all receive from a loving 4


### God is to care for this fantastic plan as long as 5



### we live. 6



### We are also acutely aware that you must 7


### weigh choices and make decisions that affect life 8


### on planet Earth. We know that it is not easy, 9


### for evil in the form of money and power always 10


### presents itself as an attractive option. Know 11



### that we suppo rt you in all you do. 12



### We have a lot of work to do. We know 13



### that we must choose between a renewable energy 14


### and the present form of energy known as fossil 15


### fuel, such as oil, gas, and coal. They have 16



### served us for centuries, but is one of the 17


### primary causes of climate change. 18



### I know that adult members of our churches 19


### will help us educate the young people in their 20


### families regarding the care of the Earth. 21


### In 1971 the mission congregation that I 22

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### was serving near Tyson's Corner formed a 1


### recycling agency known a s Eco Cycle. We operated 2


### six recycling collection sites in Arlington, 3



### Falls Church, Fairfax, Mc Lean , Sterling, and 4



### Vienna. 5


### We cooperated with Fairfax County 6


### Conservation who had been doing programs in the 7


### public schools to teach the students about 8



### wildl ife conservation. They joined us in doing a 9


### program in the schools near the collection sites 10



### to involve the students and their families in a 11


### contest to determine which class would recycle 12


### the most recovered materials. And it was a very 13


### effective program that involved the families with 14



### school

- aged children to reduce solid waste, reuse 15


### containers, and recycle to conserve resources and 16



### energy. 17



### One of the statements that was always so 18


### effective in getting their attention was, do you 19



### know how much energy and r aw materials it takes 20



### to make a throwaway container? And they were 21


### always amazed to learn that it takes 250 times as 22

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### much water to make a paper cup as it does to wash 1



### a reusable one. 2


### In 1973 Eco Cycle contracted with the 3


### City of Alexandria to set up six c enters in that 4


### city for collecting recyclables. We began 5


### implementing education programs in the public 6



### schools. Within a few weeks the 7


### compartmentalized containers were filled to 8


### overflowing. The wonderful program came to an 9


### abrupt end when the Arab Oil Embargo caused fuel 10


### prices to rise and we could no longer afford to 11



### operate the system. 12


### Most pew sinners at that time were not 13


### ready to listen. Times were changing and 14



### awareness has changed. We don't have the luxury 15


### of waiting any more until everyone is in 16



### agreement. We need you to step up and make new 17


### policies; policies that make it mandatory for 18


### every community to provide easily accessible 19


### recycling programs or facilities. 20


### Policies that say all emissions from 21


### buildings and vehicles must meet the new carbon 22

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### restrictions. Policies that are incentives for 1



### everyone to convert to renewable resources for 2


### their heat and lights. This would be a great 3



### start. 4



### It would not be easy and there would be 5


### many who will sound all kinds of alarms, but the 6



### instructi ons are clear and simple, take care of 7


### Planet Earth. The responsibility falls on you, 8


### the Environmental Protection Agency. 9


### Finally, please keep us informed. When 10


### you make the right decisions the clergy and the 11



### churches stand ready to support you. As lo ng as 12


### I am God's agent here among you, I will work to 13



### preserve Planet Earth. 14


### Thank you for listening. It's been a 15


### long time coming. 16



### MR. PAGE: Thank you, Mr. Rosenow. Could 17



### you please spell your name for the court 18



### reporter? 19



### MR. ROSENOW: Rosenow, R

- O

- S

- E

- N

- O

- W. 20


### MR. PAGE: Thank you, sir. 21



### MR. ROSENOW: Thank you. 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### MR. PAGE: Thank you both for your 1


### testimony today. We appreciate it. 2



### MR. ROSENOW: Thank you. 3


### MR. PAGE: Next speakers we have are Erin 4


### Hodge and Nichole Broder. 5



### Whenever you're ready, Ms. Hod ge. 6


### MS. HODGE: Hi. My name is Erin Hodge, 7



### that's E

- R

- I

- N H

- O

- D

- G

- E. I'm a student at 8


### Boston College studying environmental geo 9



### science. 10



### I wanted to talk to you today about why I 11


### support the EPA's Clean Power Plan and their work 12


### to cut carbon pollutio n and fight global warming. 13


### I grew up in Great Falls, Virginia, not 14



### too far from here on the Potomac. Our roads are 15


### narrow and windy at the best of times, and 16



### honestly dangerous at the worst. I've been there 17


### to witness increasingly heavy storms turn thos e 18


### roads into rivers, causing damage and even death. 19


### Storms bring down trees in my 20


### neighborhood nearly every other week in the 21


### summer, tearing down power lines and leaving us 22

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### without electricity. 1



### I understand that these storms are 2


### becoming more intense be cause of climate change 3


### and that average precipitation in the U.S. is 4


### expected to further increase. 5


### But I also know that the impacts of 6


### global warming go beyond what I've seen at home. 7


### I spent over a month on the Pacific studying the 8



### ocean. As the worl d's largest carbon sink the 9



### oceans absorb a lot of the carbon dioxide 10


### released into the atmosphere. 11


### As atmospheric levels increase the ocean 12


### has done its best to keep up and as more Co2 13


### dissolves into the oceans the more acidic they 14



### become. Coral and sh ells become more difficult 15



### to form, and the delicate balance that marine 16


### ecosystems depend on begins to fail. 17


### My shipmates and I collected ph samples 18


### as evidence of the impacts of carbon pollution 19


### during my trip, and that's just one of many chain 20



### reactions started by a polluted atmosphere. 21


### Power plants are responsible for around 22

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### 40 percent of America's carbon emissions, and 1



### without this rule there are no federal limits on 2


### the amount of carbon pollution they can release 3



### into the air. The Clean Power Plan is a huge 4


### step forward for the U.S. acting to prevent 5


### further damage to our environment and 6


### infrastructure caused by carbon pollution. 7


### This is what the EPA was designed to do. 8


### This plan will reduce air pollution to combat 9



### asthma and heat waves and Co2 to co mbat warming. 10


### I'm grateful for the EPA's commitment to the 11


### fight against global warming and urge you to 12


### finalize the Clean Power Plan. Thank you. 13



### MR. PAGE: Thank you. 14


### MS BRODER: Hi. My name is Nicole 15



### Broder, that's N

- I

- C

- O

- L

- E B

- R

- O

- D

- E

- R. I'm here 16



### t oday as a student from the C ollege of William 17


### and Mary, studying environmental science and 18



### anthropology. 19


### I wanted to share with you today why I'm 20


### concerned about climate change and why I support 21



### the Clean Power Plan. I'll be a senior at the 22

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### college this y ear and for those of you who aren't 1


### familiar with my school, William and Mary is 2


### located in Williamsburg, Virginia, right in the 3


### heart of the Tidewater Region. 4


### Living in this delicate coastal climate 5



### I've already experienced first hand the effects 6



### of clima te change. My freshman year on the 7


### second day of classes Hurricane Irene came 8


### barreling up the east coast, causing the college 9


### to evacuate. After only the briefest taste of 10


### college life I was back at home for five days 11


### while the storm raged outside. 12



### When I returned I was greeted not with 13


### the site of my beautiful historic school, but 14


### instead with fallen trees, washed out paths, and 15


### standing water at every turn

. 16


### My sophomore year Hurricane Sandy hit the 17


### east coast. While Williamsburg was lucky 18



### compared t o those located further north, the 19


### college still shut down for two days and suffered 20


### the effects of torrential rain and flooding. 21


### That same year the Great Dismal Swamp, 22

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### located just miles from campus, was on fire as a 1


### result of lightning striking unusually dry parts 2


### of the environment. Over 6500 acres of precious 3



### swamp lands were destroyed. 4


### Last year, as a junior, Williamsburg 5


### experienced an unheard of amount of snowfall. We 6


### had school canceled on three separate occasions 7


### and saw a total of eight inches a ccumulate. Just 8


### for some perspective, the average snowfall in 9


### Williamsburg, Virginia is zero inches. 10



### And these are only the effects we are 11


### feeling today. Virginia is experiencing the 12



### fastest rate of sea level rise on the east coast, 13


### and Williamsburg sits only 82 feet above sea 14


### level. Bordered by the James River to the north 15



### and the

-- oh, sorry, James River to the south 16



### and the York River to the north, I can be sure 17


### that in the coming years my home will be 18


### threatened by sea level rise. 19


### The College of Wil liam and Mary is 321 20



### years old. As a student of the second oldest 21


### college in the country I am struck every day by 22

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### the juxtaposition of the very foundations of this 1


### country with the education of its future. As the 2


### youth of this country prepare themselves to be 3



### the leaders of tomorrow every day on campus, I 4


### can't help but think that our founding fathers 5


### would be appalled to see this country damaged 6


### beyond repair by climate change. 7


### The college is famous for its first. The 8


### first U.S. institution with the Roy al Charter, 9


### the first Greek Letter Society, the first student 10


### honor code, the first college to become a 11


### university, and the first law school in America. 12


### It would be a tragedy to see this historic 13



### institution become one of the first to be 14



### destroyed by the effects of climate change. 15


### Power plants are the single largest 16


### source of carbon pollution fueling climate 17


### change. In Virginia they are responsible for 31 18


### percent of or carbon pollution. It is undeniable 19


### that climate change is fueling extreme weather 20



### even ts like the ones I have experienced, as well 21


### as causing rising sea levels. Addressing climate 22

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### change is not only our obligation to the youth of 1


### this country, but also our obligation to the 2


### history and founders of this great nation. 3



### The EPA must finalize i ts proposed Clean 4


### Power Plan. We can't sit by and allow power 5


### plants to dump unlimited amounts of dangerous 6


### carbon pollution into the air. Thank you. 7



### MR. PAGE: Thank you both for your 8


### testimony today. Appreciate it. 9



### Our next two speakers are Samantha D uthe 10



### and Robert Jagusch. 11



### Samantha, are you ready? 12



### MS. DUTHE: Good afternoon. Yep. 13



### MR. PAGE: Yes. 14


### MS. DUTHE: My name is Samantha Duthe, D

15



### U

- T

- H

- E. 16



### MR. PAGE: Oh, thank you. 17



### MS. DUTHE: No problem. I'm a student 18


### studying environmental biology at Niag ara 19


### University and I'm here today to say why taking 20


### action against climate change is important to me 21



### and why I support the Clean Power Plan. 22

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### Born and raised in Buffalo, New York the 1


### Great Lakes have always been a big part of my 2


### life. Growing up we spent m any of my summer days 3


### on the beaches Lake Erie or camping on the shore 4


### of Lake Ontario. But more recently as a class 5


### for my university, last summer I took part in a 6


### three week sailing trip on the Great Lakes. And 7


### this trip gave the Great Lakes a very spe cial 8


### place in my heart. 9


### The lakes presented me with some of the 10


### most beautiful scenery I have ever seen, the 11


### biggest adventure of my life, and the best 12



### memories I have ever made. But the Great Lakes 13


### are at risk from climate change. Climate change 14



### could reduce water levels and increase the 15


### temperature of the water which would provide less 16



### habitats for cold

- water fish like Yellow Perch 17


### and Walleye, while creating more suitable 18


### habitats for invasive species. 19


### Climate change could also increase algae 20



### blooms which can result in harmful dead zones 21


### that make the water unsuitable for many species 22

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### and for anyone who enjoys spending time by or on 1



### the water. 2



### Not only does the Clean Power Plan help 3



### to protect the places that we love, but has many 4



### other benefits as well. 5


### The Clean Power Plan promotes investments 6


### in efficiency and renewable energy sources like 7


### wind and solar. In turn this creates jobs of the 8


### future and an energy infrastructure that is safer 9



### and healthier. There are also numerous health 10



### benefits that can result from this plan. 11


### By 2030 this plan can help to decrease an 12


### extraordinary amount of asthma attacks for 13



### children and also decrease the number of heart 14



### attacks. 15


### Power plants are the single largest 16


### source of carbon pollution fueling global 17


### warming , and currently there are no federal 18


### limits on the amount of carbon pollution that 19


### power plants can dump into the air. The Clean 20


### Power Plan is an important step in tackling 21


### global warming so that we can protect the places 22

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### that we love, and create a safer, healthier, and 1


### more sustainable future. I urge the EPA to 2


### finalize the Clean Power Plan. Thank you. 3



### MR. PAGE: Thank you. 4



### MR. JAGUSCH: Good afternoon. I'm Robert 5



### Jagusch, J

- A

- G

- U

- S

- C

- H. I'm Director of 6


### Engineering and Policy Analysis for the Minneso ta 7


### Municipal Utilities Association, and MUA is a 8


### state service organization representing the 9


### interest of 125 locally owned municipal and 10


### nonprofit electric utilities throughout 11


### Minnesota. Thank you for the opportunity to 12


### testify today on EPA's proposed ru les to reduce 13


### carbon dioxide emissions from existing fossil 14


### fired power plants under Section 111D of the 15



### Clean Air Act known as the Clean Power Plan. 16


### MMUA believes it is congress that should 17


### be addressing the issue of climate change, not 18



### EPA through the e xisting Clean Air Act, which is 19



### ill suited for this purpose as the EPA's proposal 20



### illustrates. 21


### However, we recognize that congress is 22

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### not going to act any time soon, and that the EPA 1


### intends to issue final regulation under this 2



### rule. 3



### We have some concerns with the proposal. 4


### MMUA will also be filing comments by the October 5



### 16th deadline that will include a number a 6



### constructive fact

- based recommendations to 7


### improve the proposal by making it more workable, 8



### more affordable, or more sustainable. We're 9



### workin g with our members, the State of Minnesota, 10



### and other stakeholders now to develop these 11


### recommendations. If done correctly Section 111D 12


### could be an effective way to provide a steady Co2 13


### reduction, but it's not quite really designed in 14



### a workable way yet. 15


### We're disappointed that the EPA decided 16


### to directly set state's Co2 reduction 17


### requirements. We believe it's the states, not 18



### EPA that should set these limits on fossil fueled 19


### fired power plants at levels based on adequately 20


### demonstrated technologies. The Clean Power Plan 21


### provides no role for the states in setting their 22

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### standards, or in subsequently modifying the 1



### standard based on actual achievability

. 2


### Minnesota Utilities have already achieved 3


### greater than 20 percent reduction in Co2 since 4



### 2005. The propos ed rule produces divergent state 5


### goals, even among neighboring states. Minnesota 6


### is required to achieve a 41 percent reduction 7


### from 2012 levels, while Iowa is assigned a 16 8


### percent reduction and North Dakota, only 11 9



### percent. 10


### The actions to acquire the proposed 11



### reductions all have substantial costs with the 12


### emission reductions being frontloaded recurring 13


### most of the reductions early in the compliance 14


### period so consumers in Minnesota will have to 15


### bear much higher financial burden than consumers 16



### in most of our neighboring states. 17


### We believe that it should be possible to 18


### modify the design of the program so as to place 19


### states on more equal footing. 20



### Another key concern is that our members 21


### do not get full credit for early actions that 22

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### they've taken in investin g in renewable energy 1


### and energy efficiency to reduce emissions prior 2



### to 2012. The proposal also does not treat 3



### emission reductions made before 2020, the same as 4



### those made in 2020 or later. 5



### The President's Climate Action Plan 6


### reiterates his goal of a 17 percent reduction in 7


### greenhouse gases from 2005 levels by 2020, which 8


### our members will meet or exceed without any 9


### action by the EPA, and the stated purpose of the 10


### proposed rule is based on reductions from the 11


### power section of approximately 30 percent from 12



### Co2 emissions in 2005. 13


### Ideally all actions that reduce Co2 14


### emissions from the power sector during that 15


### period should be given equal weight. According 16


### to Table 6 in the proposed rule, Minnesota 17


### electric generation has already comprised of 18 18



### percent renewa ble energy in 2012. Most of that 19


### renewable generation was added after 2005, and 20



### should be treated the same as renewable 21


### generation added during the compliance period. 22

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- 3376213



### It's vitally important that our members 1



### receive credit for all of their efforts. 2



### One of the issues we have again is 3


### Minnesota's newest and most efficient coal power 4


### plant was offline during all of 2012, due to a 5


### major outage. Minnesota's historic coal 6


### generation data relied upon in developing the 7


### rule is therefore abnormally low and must be 8


### adjusted to include the energy produced by the 9


### 884 megawatt plant in a typical year. 10


### Based on some preliminary calculations 11


### and the base line for Minnesota coal generation 12


### the plant produces a substantial change in 13


### Minnesota's interim and final goals. EPA has 14


### provided no information and guidance on how to 15


### account for discrepancies such as this within the 16



### proposal. 17


### Another huge concern we have is the 18


### location of the renewable generation that rate 19


### pairs of Minnesota have already developed. A 20



### large percent o f the wind generation that 21


### Minnesota utilities have built resides in optimum 22

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### locations but is outside the borders of 1



### Minnesota. Primarily in the Dakotas, Wyoming, 2



### and Iowa. 3


### This renewable generation was built by 4


### Minnesota rate pairs to meet the requirem ents of 5


### the Minnesota Renewable Energy Standard and 6



### should be credited to Minnesota's Co2 reductions 7


### under this proposal. 8



### Minnesota state officials have received 9


### preliminary confirmation from the EPA that this 10



### will count for Minnesota, but the final rule will 11


### need to address this issue, along with a way to 12


### resolve state by state conflicts. 13


### We're also requesting the EPA to provide 14



### a mass

- based formula and calculations for Co2 for 15



### all the states. Minnesota state officials as 16



### stakeholders need a way to com pare options based 17



### on set standards for all the states. 18



### Lastly, we're very concerned about the 19


### reliability of the service we provide to our 20


### customers. The proposal is silent on providing 21


### for an increase in demand from an expanding 22

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### population or the addi tion of an energy intensive 1


### industry or customer. Energy efficiency and 2


### renewable energy will not be sufficient to 3



### att r act any business to compete in these markets. 4



### We also are very concerned about the 5


### reliance on natural gas by substantially 6


### increasing the operating capacity of the natural 7


### gas combined cycle plans. There's a lack of 8


### understanding in the proposal about how natural 9


### gas electric generating units are used to ensure 10


### the reliability of renewable energy, power 11


### quality and intermittent operati on which will 12


### exclude many units from being available for base 13


### load generation. 14


### Minnesota also already has routine winter 15


### constraints on natural gas use for our small 16


### peaking electric generating units and reliance on 17


### more natural gas generation will only exacerbate 18



### the problem. 19


### The proposed rules assumptions for 20



### infrastructure improvements

-- 21


### MR. PAGE: We're going to ask you to wrap 22

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### up. 1


### MR. JAGUSCH: Yep, I've got it. 2



### MR. PAGE: Yep. Okay. 3


### MR. JAGUSCH: We just would ask you that 4



### F ERC, N ERC and the RTO s provide an analysis of 5



### the proposal and we appreciate the recognition 6


### the EPA has given our customers and members in 7


### holding Minnesota up as a positive example in the 8



### proposed rule. 9


### We look forward to working with you on 10


### our recommendations and thank you again. 11



### MR. PAGE: Thank you both for your 12


### testimony today. 13


### Next speakers are Jennifer Kefer and 14


### Monique Hanis. 15



### Ms. Kefer, when you are ready. 16



### MS. KEFER: Great. Jennifer Kefer, K

- E

17



### F

- E

- R. 18


### Thank you so much for the opportunity to 19


### testify today. I'm spea king on behalf of the 20



### A lliance for I ndustrial E fficiency. We're a 21



### divers e coalition of labor, contractor, business, 22

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### and environmental groups committed to finding 1


### ways to increase manufacturing competitiveness, 2


### reduce emissions, and create jobs through the use 3


### of combined heat and power and waste heat to 4



### power. 5


### Today I'd like to make two key points. 6


### First, we commend EPA for proposing a flexible 7



### rule that allows power plants to take advantage 8



### of the cheapest ways to reduce greenhouse gas 9



### emissions. 10



### Secon d, EPA needs to strengthen that rule 11


### in several key ways to ensure that CHP and waste 12



### to power are adequately treated. 13



### We thank EPA for allowing power plants to 14



### take advantage of low

- cost greenhouse gas 15



### emission

-- greenhouse gas emission reductions 16



### from C HP. The proposed rule allows for effected 17


### power plants to look outside the four walls of 18


### the facility, to find the lowest cost source of 19


### emission reductions. We thank EPA for allowing 20


### this flexibility because if it was not allowed 21



### CHP and waste to power would not be considered as 22

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### compliance options. 1


### While a few PHC systems will be directly 2


### covered by the rule there are still opportunities 3


### at hospitals, universities, and factories that 4


### offer a proven cost effective way to create jobs, 5



### save money, and enhan ce reliability. And these 6


### activities should be encouraged. 7



### CHP and waste heat to power offer many 8



### benefits. First, environmental. CHP and waste 9


### heat to power allow their host facilities to 10


### produce more useful heat and electricity with 11



### less fuel. And be cause they're combusting less 12


### fuel that means they're producing fewer 13



### emissions. 14



### Two, economic. At the same time, because 15


### these systems are more efficient they have to 16


### purchase less fuel. That makes these facilities 17


### more competitive. 18



### Under one scenario DOE projects that full 19


### scale deployment of CHP could create 1 million 20


### new jobs. 21


### And finally reliability. CHP systems can 22

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### operate independent of the grid. This relieves 1



### the burden that they place on transmission and 2



### distribution lines, and means that s ystems can be 3


### up and running during extreme weather events that 4



### may cause power outages. 5


### Moreover, the potential deployment of CHP 6


### and waste heat to power is great. According to 7


### recent analysis by the American Council for an 8


### Energy Efficient Economy and t he Center for Clean 9


### Air Policy, this rule could support 10 to 20 10


### gigawatts of new CHP installations. That's the 11


### equivalent of 20 to 40 conventional power plants. 12


### And that analysis was using very conservative 13


### assumptions. 14


### Nonetheless, we also point out th at EPA 15


### can strengthen the rule in five key ways to 16



### ensure that CHP and waste heat to power are 17



### adequately treated. 18


### One, EPA needs to send a clear signal 19


### about CHP. The proposed rule needs to clarify 20


### that CHP and waste heat to power qualify as 21


### complianc e mechanisms. It's not clear that 22

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### references throughout the rule to energy 1


### efficiency extend to CHP and waste heat to power. 2


### CHP is mentioned only once as an example of 3


### demand side energy efficiency. Waste heat to 4


### power is not mentioned at all. 5


### Explicit recognition of CHP and waste 6


### heat to power will send a strong signal to states 7


### that they should consider these technologies when 8


### they are developing their own compliance plans. 9


### Two, EPA should provide a full 100 10


### percent thermal credit. One of the key 11



### adv antages of CHP is that it produces both 12


### electricity and heat from a single fuel source. 13


### Now the vast majority if CHP systems are not 14


### directly affected by this rule. Either because 15



### they're not large enough or because they're not 16


### selling electricity back t o the grid. 17



### However, where systems are covered, the 18


### rule does not fully credit all of the thermal 19



### energy that they produce. If EPA wants to 20


### encourage CHP deployment, as we believe it does, 21


### it should recognize all of the thermal output 22

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### from a CHP system. States are likely to adopt 1


### the approach that is put forth in this rule when 2


### they incorporate CHP into their compliance plans. 3



### For the same reason, three, EPA needs to 4


### provide a full 100 percent

-- I'm sorry, a full 5



### line loss credit. 6



### Another benefit of CH P is that it reduces 7


### losses associated with delivering electricity 8



### from a central power generator to an end user. 9


### For the systems that are directly covered 10


### by the rule EPA acknowledges it's benefit and 11


### provides a modest five percent line loss credit. 12



### In fact, avoided transmission and distribution 13


### losses associated with CHP are significantly 14


### larger. The rule needs to fully credit these 15


### savings. This too will send an important signal 16



### to states. 17


### Four, provide assurances. By installing 18



### CHP systems manufac turers reduce emissions 19


### throughout the air shed. However, because they 20


### are now producing electricity on site, their own 21


### emissions may modestly increase. These 22

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### facilities need to have assurances that actions 1


### that they take now will not subject them to mor e 2


### demanding requirements down the road. 3


### And finally, five, EPA needs to prepare 4


### state templates. The proposed rule sets initial 5


### targets but provides states tremendous 6


### flexibility to determine how to meet them in 7


### their own compliance plans. States are goi ng to 8


### need help to figure out how to incorporate CHP 9


### and waste heat to power into those plans. If EPA 10


### fails to provide those resources then the jobs 11


### and enhanced competitiveness benefits of CHP will 12



### be lost. 13



### In sum, CHP and waste heat to power cut 14



### emissio ns, create jobs, and save money. EPA 15


### should clarify that the rule encourages their use 16


### and provide tools to the states to ensure that 17


### these technologies are incorporated into state 18



### plans. Thank you. 19



### MR. PAGE: Thank you. 20



### MS HANIS: Good afternoon, and th anks for 21


### this time to share my comments in support of 22

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### EPA's proposed rules to reduce emission from 1


### existing power plants. 2


### My name is Monique Hanis and I'm here as 3


### a concerned citizen and mother from Arlington, 4


### Virginia. 5


### MR. PAGE: Ms. Hanis, would you plea se 6



### spell your name for the court reporter? 7



### MS. HANIS: Sure. I actually gave her 8



### my

-- 9



### MR. PAGE: Oh, okay. 10



### MS. HANIS:

-- (indiscernible)**57:43, 11



### so. 12



### MR. PAGE: Great. Thank you. 13


### MS. HANIS: I'm here today to register my 14



### strong support for these new EPA rules and their 15


### speedy implementation by states, including 16


### Virginia where I've lived and raised my family 17



### for nearly 25 years. 18


### During this time as an individual citizen 19


### I've tried to do my best to protect and improve 20


### our environment. I take public t ransportation, I 21


### ride my bike and drive a hybrid car. In fact I 22

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### rode my bike to be here with you today. Over the 1


### years my husband and I have implemented energy 2


### efficiency in the homes we've owned. We've 3


### installed insulation, programmable thermostats, 4



### mo re efficient lighting, as well as highly rated 5



### windows and air conditioners. 6


### And eight years ago we also installed 7


### solar water heating and solar electric PV systems 8


### on our current residence to generate our own 9



### power. 10



### Since then I've seen first

- hand that 11



### s olar energy really works and it saves our family 12


### nearly 40 percent of our energy bills, and it 13



### reduces our dependence on coal and natural gas. 14



### But I feel that's not enough. 15



### I support these EPA rules because 16


### effective public policy is needed to drive large r 17


### structural changes to make a significant impact 18



### on how we generate and use energy everywhere we 19


### live, work, learn, and play. 20


### By setting achievable targets to reduce 21


### our carbon emissions the EPA rules will help us 22

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### reduce dangerous pollution and address climate 1


### change so that our communities and our families 2



### will have a cleaner, safer future. 3


### This is similar to past EPA rules that 4


### have successfully reduced emissions from our 5


### vehicles, protected our water, cut other 6


### pollution from power plants like sulfu r and 7


### nitrogen dioxides. 8



### As a concerned citizen I feel the 9



### proposed rules don't go far enough, but I support 10


### them as a balanced reasonable way to improve our 11


### environment while growing our economy and 12


### creating new domestic jobs. I feel by setting 13



### targets t he EPA gives our states and power 14


### companies great flexibility to comply with a 15


### range of options to increase energy efficiency 16



### and expand use of solar and other renewable, 17



### clean, abundant energy sources so that we can 18


### reduce our dependence on polluting foss il fuels. 19


### These rules will drive state policy 20


### makers and utility companies to seek effective 21



### market solutions on behalf of our communities and 22

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### energy customers in all sectors. 1



### I also feel it's imperative that our 2


### nation signal to others globally that we ar e 3


### doing our fair share to reduce emissions that 4


### pollute and contribute to climate change. We 5


### need to lead on this issue and that begins with 6


### taking meaningful action. 7


### In my professional career I've worked in 8


### banking, renewable energy and sustainable 9



### fores try. I learned that companies and markets 10


### are remarkably effective at adjusting to new 11


### circumstances. So are people. 12


### I also learned that these companies and 13


### local economies can grow when we do the right 14


### thing to protect our environment. But we need 15



### go vernment guidance to spur us into greater 16


### action. That is why I fully support these new 17


### proposed EPA rules. I encourage power companies, 18


### and mine in particular, Dominion Power, to 19



### embrace these rules and see them as an 20


### opportunity to develop new, sustain able business 21



### models that serve the interests of their 22

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### customers, the communities they sever, 1


### shareholders, and our environment. So let's get 2



### started. Thank you. 3



### MR. PAGE: Thank you both for your 4


### testimony today. We appreciate it. 5



### Our next speakers are David Cash and 6


### Jeremy Richardson. Mr. Cash, you're first up. 7



### MR. CASH: Thank you very much for the 8


### opportunity to testify today and provide comments 9


### on EPA's proposed clean power plan. My name is 10



### David Cash, D

- A

- V

- I

- D C

- A

- S

- H. And I'm the 11



### Commissioner of the Massachusetts Department of 12



### Environmental Protection. Prior to this I was a 13


### commissioner of our state's public utilities 14


### commission, and in that role focused on grid 15


### reliability and cost protection freight payers. 16


### In total I've worked in state go vernment for 10 17



### years, always at the nexus of energy, 18


### environment, and economic development. 19


### Before going into some specific aspects 20



### of the proposal, I want to make two general 21


### points. First, we strongly support EPA's 22

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### decision to use the Clean Air Act to regulate 1


### carbon dioxide emissions from existing electric 2


### power plants, and support the time table and 3



### schedule that has been proposed. 4


### Addressing climate change is critically 5


### important and a fundamental generational 6


### responsibility that we have. And we agr ee that 7



### all states should be on the path toward a clean 8



### energy future. 9



### Second, based on the administration of 10



### Governor Deval Patrick's Clean Energy Agenda, our 11


### experience regulating carbon emission from 12


### electric power plants has definitely shown that 13



### prog rams that reduce emissions can support 14


### economic growth by reducing energy costs, 15


### creating local clean energy jobs, and insulating 16


### the economy from fuel price volatility

. 17


### In the remainder of my testimony I would 18


### share our initial thoughts about several as pects 19


### of the proposal, and we're working with other 20


### states to provide written comments in October. 21


### My first specific comment is that the 22

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### proposed targets, while significant, might not 1


### meet the President's goal of achieving economy

2


### wide reductions of 83 pe rcent by 2050. 3



### While Massachusetts and the eight other 4



### states that participate in the Regional 5



### Greenhouse Gas Initiative, REGGI, an their market 6



### based program are already on track to reduce 7


### emissions by 50 percent below 2005 levels by 8



### 2020, EPA has indic ated that the plan will reduce 9


### emissions from covered sources by 30 percent from 10



### 2005 levels in 2030. 11


### While we recognize that the REGGI states' 12


### levels of reductions may not be appropriate for 13


### all states, our success suggests that nationwide 14



### cuts, larger than 30 percent, are feasible. EPA 15


### should therefore review the proposal for 16


### additional reduction opportunities. 17



### For example, for some states that do not 18


### currently have policies that support renewable 19


### energy, the proposal does not fully recognize the 20



### pot ential to increase renewable energy 21


### generation. Our success in driving investment to 22

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### renewable energy can be replicated in other 1



### states. And for most other states wind and solar 2


### resources will be better than they are in 3



### Massachusetts where we have, nonet heless, seen 4


### rapid deployment and rapid decline of 5



### installation costs. These facts should be read 6


### or reflected in the proposal. 7



### We're very pleased to see the plan 8


### recognizes regional market

- based programs such as 9


### REGGI. We participate in this program and expect 10


### to use it to comply. As you know the program has 11



### been an unmitigated success. Not just as an 12


### environmental regulation but as a driver of 13


### economic growth. 14



### Market

- based programs have long been 15


### recognized as the regulatory approach that 16



### reduces emis sions at the lowest possible economic 17


### cost, and REGGI has shown that by investing 18


### auction revenues strategically, significant 19


### economic benefits are possible. 20


### In the REGGI region, for example, net 21


### benefits were approximately $1.6 billion in the 22

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### first compl iance period. EPA should ensure that 1



### other interested states are able to realize these 2


### benefits by providing assistance with tasks such 3


### as allowance tracking and auction 4



### administration., 5



### For states that do not choose market 6



### based programs, Massachusetts' experience is also 7


### relevant. Such states will need to complete a 8


### planning process to identify a suite of emission 9


### reduction policies. We have successfully used 10


### such processes in two different contexts. 11



### First, under the state implementation 12


### plan require ments of the Clean Air Act, we have 13


### cost effectively reduced emissions of smog 14


### forming pollutants. 15



### Second, Massachusetts has a state statute 16


### the requires a similar planning process for 17


### greenhouse gas emissions. While challenging, we 18



### have found that thes e processes represent an 19


### opportunity to pursue policies that best support 20


### economic growth. And I'm proud to say that 21



### because of all the work that has been done in 22

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### states like Massachusetts states have a long list 1


### of well tested strategies that are economi cally 2



### beneficial that cause emission reductions that 3



### can be chosen from. 4


### Providing a comprehensive review of our 5


### state policies is beyond the scope of my remarks. 6



### However, I want to call out one example that has 7


### been of particular focus. Energy efficienc y. 8


### Our homegrown energy efficiency industry 9


### now supports nearly 50,000 jobs and will, over 10


### time, deliver $4 to $5 in benefits for every 11


### dollar we invest. In the longer term it will 12


### help us remain competitive with other energy 13



### efficient economies such as t hose of California, 14


### Japan, and in Europe. However, because of the 15


### amount of money involved it also represents a 16


### huge responsibility to invest prudently. 17


### In Massachusetts we devote significant 18


### resources to program evaluation and stakeholder 19


### input. In ma ny cases working with regional and 20


### national groups to create uniform protocols. We 21


### are pleased to see this work recognized in the 22

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### proposal but urge EPA to go further to require 1


### rigorous standardized treatment of energy 2


### efficiency in state plans. 3



### I'd sum marize our experience reducing 4


### power sector carbon emissions in Massachusetts 5


### with the following statistics. Since 1990 our 6


### economy has grown by 70 percent while greenhouse 7


### gas emissions have fallen by 40 percent. During 8



### the administration of Governor De val Patrick, 9


### solar capacity has grown from 3 megawatts to over 10


### 500 megawatts, wind has grown from 3 megawatts to 11



### 100 megawatts, the Clean Energy Sector now has 12


### over 80,000 jobs and has grown six percent to 12 13


### percent annually for the last five years, and 14



### M assachusetts has become an international hub for 15


### clean energy innovation and entrepreneurship. 16



### Along the way we have developed, tested, 17


### and deployed programs that drive economic growth 18



### and reduce carbon emissions. The Clean Power 19



### Plan would set the coun try as a whole, on a 20


### similar path, reducing emissions while seizing 21


### economic opportunities, both at home and in the 22

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### increasing competitive global clean energy 1



### market. Thank you. And I look forward to 2



### continued collaboration with EPA. 3



### MR. PAGE: Thank yo u, Commissioner Cash. 4


### One clarification. The 50,000 jobs that you 5



### reference, is that

-- 6


### MR. CASH: Eighty thousand. 7


### MR. PAGE: Eighty thousand. Is that in 8



### Massachusetts or across the 9



### (indiscernible)**1:07:33. 10


### MR. CASH: Eighty thousand jobs in 11



### Massachu setts. 12



### MR. PAGE: In Massachusetts. 13


### MR. CASH: And six percent to 12 percent 14


### growth in Massachusetts. Other states have had 15



### similar successes as well. 16


### MR. PAGE: Thank you. Yes, sir. 17


### MR. RICHARDSON: Jeremy Richardson, R

- I

18



### C

- H

- A

- R

- D

- S

- O

- N. Thank you f or the opportunity 19


### to testify today in support of strong carbon 20


### pollution standards for existing power plants. 21


### My name is Jeremy Richardson and I am a 22

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### senior energy analyst at the Union of Concerned 1



### Scientists. 2


### UCS is the nation's leading science based 3



### n on

- profit working for a healthy environment and 4


### a safer world. I have a unique perspective on 5


### reducing greenhouse gas emissions from burning 6



### fossil fuels. 7


### As a scientist I understand the urgency 8


### to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to protect the 9



### planet's climate. As the brother, son, and 10


### grandson of West Virginia coal miners the 11


### question of how we go about tackling climate 12


### change is deeply personal to me. 13



### First, on behalf of UCS's more than 14



### 450,000 supporters, I want to say today that we 15



### strongly suppor t the Environmental Protection 16


### Agency's efforts to limit carbon emissions from 17


### the fossil fuel fired power plants under the 18



### Clean Air Act. 19


### Simultaneously I want to emphasize the 20


### need for special consideration for the families 21


### and communities facing the n egative consequences 22

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### of the transition to a cleaner low carbon energy 1



### system

. 2


### Human induced climate change is already 3


### having impacts that are being felt by people here 4



### in America and around the world. If we 5


### collectively fail to make deep reductions in our 6


### carbon emissions we will greatly increase the 7



### risk of serious economic health, and 8


### environmental consequences from accelerating sea 9


### level rise, storm surges, heat waves, drought, 10


### wild fires, frequent heavy downpours, and 11


### increased hurricane intensity. 12



### The se impacts are the direct consequence 13


### of increasing concentration of greenhouse gases 14


### like carbon dioxide in our planet's atmosphere

. 15


### Power plants are the largest single source of 16


### U.S. Co2 emissions, representing about 40 percent 17


### of the total. Reducing e missions from the 18


### electric power sector is therefore crucial to our 19


### overall efforts to tackle climate change. 20



### These facts compel us to act and to act 21


### decisively. In doing so we must recognize that 22

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### some regions of the country are facing a heavier 1



### burden than others in this transition to a less 2


### fossil intensive electricity system. 3


### The proposed carbon standard for existing 4


### power plants provides a sound framework for 5


### reducing emissions from the power sector, but it 6


### is not ambitious enough and the overall res ult of 7


### a 30 percent reduction in emissions in 2030 8



### relative to 2005. 9


### UCS analysis shows that we can achieve 10


### twice that, a 60 percent reduction in emissions 11



### in 2030 relative to 2005. UCS supports EPA's 12


### proposal to incorporate outside the fence 13



### emissions reduction measures, namely renewable 14


### energy and energy efficiency and state compliance 15


### plans. Renewables such as wind, solar, and 16


### geothermal energy emit no carbon and are already 17


### delivering safe, reliable, and affordable power 18



### to consumers. They also hel p diversity their 19


### electricity mix, improve public health, 20


### strengthen state and local economies, and reduce 21


### the risk of an over reliance on natural gas. 22

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### EPA used four building blocks to 1



### determine the best system of emission reductions, 2



### and establish emissio n rate reduction goals for 3



### each state. 4



### For the renewables block EPA has really 5


### proposed an average system of emissions 6


### reductions, seriously underestimating the true 7


### potential for renewable energy to cut carbon 8


### emissions. EPA's state renewable energy targ ets 9


### are in many cases close to a business as usual 10



### approach. Four states, for example, have more 11


### renewable energy generation in 2012 than their 12



### EPA targets for 2030. 13


### States could be more ambitious in using 14



### renewables to reduce emissions. The cost s of 15



### ren ewable energy have fallen dramatically. For 16


### example the cost of solar photovoltaics are 17



### already

-- is already equal to retail electricity 18



### rates in 10 states. And this number could more 19



### than double over the next year and a half as the 20



### cost of solar contin ue to fall according to a 21



### recent study by Deutsche Bank. 22

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### Since the beginning of 2011 the average 1


### price of a solar PV panel has declined 60 percent 2


### and the average installed cost has fallen by more 3


### than 35 percent. Meanwhile the cost of wind 4



### power dropped 43 percent in the last four years, 5


### and is now competitive with power from new fossil 6


### fuel plants in many regions

-- in some regions of 7



### the country. 8


### Multiple market factors are making coal 9


### fired power too expensive relative to other 10


### cheaper less polluting options like natural gas, 11


### renewable energy, and energy efficiency. 12


### States have a major role to play in 13


### developing implementation plans for carbon 14


### standards. Together with federal policy makers 15


### states should help ensure that economic 16



### diversification and r esources for worker 17



### transition are an important part of their plans. 18


### In doing so, together we can not only establish a 19


### strong standard to protect the planet's climate, 20



### but also ensure that the workers and communities 21


### have fresh economic opportunities. An d as market 22

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### forces drive a shift away from coal. 1


### I do not accept this as an either/or 2


### proposition. Our children and our grandchildren 3


### will face the risks of a vastly different climate 4


### caused by your failure to act to reduce emissions 5



### today. 6


### My young nie ce and maybe someday her 7


### grandchildren

-- her children and grandchildren, 8


### will face an uncertain future if we don't get the 9


### second part right too. It's much harder but it 10



### is imperative that we do both. Thank you. 11


### MR. PAGE: Thank you both for coming 12



### toda y. Appreciate it. 13



### Our next speakers are Isabella Levy 14



### and

-- or Levy, and Lauren Shinaberry. You all 15


### will have to help me out on the pronunciations. 16



### Isabella and Lauren. 17


### MS. SHINABERRY: I'm Lauren Shinaberry. 18


### MR. PAGE: All right. Very good. 19



### Laure n, why don't you go ahead? 20



### MS. SHINABERRY: Okay. 21



### MR. PAGE: Okay. 22

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### MS. SHINABERRY: I'm Lauren Shinaberry, 1



### it's S

- H

- I

- N

- A

- B

- E

- R

- R

- Y. I'm a sophomore at the 2


### University of Michigan Dearborn, and I'm here 3



### because I believe that it is time to act on 4



### climate change and carbon pollution. 5


### Growing up in Michigan I have had the 6


### incredible opportunity of being surrounded by our 7


### beautiful Great Lakes. I have unforgettable 8


### memories of hiking and camping with my family 9


### along the shores of Lake Michigan, adventuring 10


### along Sleeping Bear Dunes and spending time 11


### canoeing around Lake Superior. 12



### But for as much fun as these lakes have 13


### provided me over the years, they have also given 14



### me the eye

- opening realization of disastrous 15


### impacts that climate change is imposing on our 16



### waters. 17


### Global warming is heating up our beloved 18


### Great Lakes. According to the National Wildlife 19


### Federation, Lake Superior has already seen rising 20



### temperatures and an early onset of summer 21


### stratification over the past 30 years. Given 22

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### another 30 years and Superior, which is known as 1


### our coldest Great Lake could be mostly ice

- free 2


### during a typical winter. 3


### The increased temperatures are also more 4


### suitable for invasive species and harmful 5


### bacteria growth, which puts both animal and human 6



### health at risk. Th ese lakes, which provide well 7


### over 26 million people with drinking water are in 8


### serious danger due to global warming and the 9


### carbon pollution fueling it. 10


### Though many people do not realize the 11


### Great Lakes provide us with more than just 12



### beautiful views. The y are essential to our 13


### quality of life. From farm lands to 14


### transportation this is an ecosystem we can't 15



### afford to lose. We cannot stand idly by any 16


### longer as our beaches are continuously closing 17


### due to hazardous bacteria levels and dangerous 18



### weather cond itions, while our native species are 19


### dying off or being displaced from their homes. 20


### Around the country similar problems are 21


### taking place, from wild fires in Colorado to heat 22

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### waves in Atlanta, the impacts of global warming 1



### are real and detrimental to us and our 2



### environment. 3


### Unfortunately these problems will only 4


### grow worse if we leave climate change and carbon 5


### pollution unaddressed. Until now there has been 6



### no federal limit on the amount of carbon 7


### emissions power plants can release into the air, 8



### and they ar e the single largest source of carbon 9


### pollution fueling global warming. 10


### But we can do something about it. In 11



### 2007 the Supreme Court ruled that EPA was 12


### obligated to limit carbon pollution under the 13


### Clean Air Act, and they are now doing so with the 14



### propos ed Clean Power Plan. I know that I am not 15


### alone in urging the EPA to address climate change 16


### and finalize this plan so that we can finally cut 17


### back on harmful carbon emission and start working 18



### toward a healthier future with efficient and 19



### renewable energy s ources such as solar and wind. 20


### As I'm sure my fellow Michiganders agree, 21



### we want our nickname as the Great Lake State to 22

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### stay. We want to enjoy weekends at the beach. 1



### We want our native animals to thrive in their 2



### habitats, and further, we want to ensure that the 3


### vital ecosystems in our state and the 49 others 4



### are protected from the constant threat of global 5


### warming. 6


### So for our environment, for generations 7



### to come, and for ourselves, we must work to fight 8


### against carbon pollution and aim for a better 9



### healt hier world. Thank you. 10


### MR. PAGE: Thank you, Lauren. Appreciate 11


### your testimony. 12


### All right. Is Isabella Levy here? All 13


### right. Let's see. We don't have any more 14


### speakers signed up for right now. We'll wait a 15


### minute and see if the folks that are doing the 16


### registration will bring

-- 17


### (Waiting for more speakers.) 18


### MR. PAGE: All righty. We do have some 19


### more speakers signed up. Jessica Jones and 20



### William Pennimen. 21



### Welcome to both of you. If you'll spell 22

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### your name before you start? Jessica, you're up 1



### fi rst and just begin when you're ready. 2


### MS. JONES: Good afternoon. My name is 3



### Jessica Jones, last name is J

- O

- N

- E

- S. 4


### Thank you for this opportunity to speak 5



### on the Environmental Protection Agency's Clean 6



### Power Plan. I strongly support the EPA's efforts 7


### to limit industrial carbon pollution from all 8



### power plants. The new proposed standard to 9


### eliminate greenhouse gases from existing power 10


### plants is an important step in the fight against 11


### climate change. 12


### I believe that climate change is the 13



### greatest challe nge of our time. International 14


### and national scientific studies have repeatedly 15


### shown that carbon pollution contributes directly 16


### to climate change and the threats that it brings 17



### to our communities. 18



### Power plants are currently the largest 19



### source of carbon pollution emitting 40 percent of 20



### carbon emissions in the United States . These 21


### emissions are the chief cause of climate change 22

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### in our country. 1


### I'm not a mom. I'm not a politician, or 2


### an industry specialist. I am, however, an aunt, 3



### a runner, and a citizen . I believe that it is 4



### our moral obligation to put people before 5


### polluters and put an end to the unlimited dumping 6


### of carbon pollution into our air. To me this 7


### means a safer environment for my nieces and 8


### nephews, cleaner air to breath while running, and 9


### an important step to preserving our most 10


### important commodity, our planet. 11


### This new Clean Air Standard will protect 12


### public health, fight climate change, and create 13


### jobs through innovation and cleaner energy 14


### technology. The regulation as written will give 15


### flexibility to states to formulate their own 16


### plans to meet the goals set by the EPA. This 17


### means that the many states and local communities 18


### that have already taken action on climate change 19



### will continue to have the resources to move 20



### forward. 21



### This new fed eral safeguard will set 22

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### common sense limits on carbon pollution, inspire 1


### investment and infrastructure to protect 2


### communities from the climate change impacts they 3


### are already experiencing, and spur the kind of 4


### innovation that will power America with clean 5


### energy in the 21st Century. 6


### The new safeguards will also give states 7


### flexibility to implement plans that increase 8


### efficiency, improve resiliency, and remove carbon 9


### pollution from our air. 10


### Reducing the amount of carbon pollution 11


### from power plants is a l ifesaving measure that 12


### will protect our children, our nation, and the 13


### world from the devastating effects of climate 14


### change. Limits on carbon pollution should match 15


### the limits currently placed on mercury, arsenic, 16



### and soot. 17



### The standards proposed by the EPA are 18


### aggressive and ambitious. I commend the EPA for 19


### taking the necessary steps to limit carbon 20


### pollution from both new and existing sources. I 21


### stand by you in support of this regulation and 22

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### your plan to maintain an affordable reliable 1



### energy system w hile cutting pollution and 2


### protecting our health and environment. 3


### Thank you again for the opportunity to 4



### speak today. 5



### MR. PAGE: Thank you, Ms. Jones. Mr. 6



### Penniman. 7


### MR. PENNIMAN: Thank you. My name is 8



### William Penniman. I'm a resident of Reston, 9


### Virgin ia. I've spent 40 years working on energy 10


### issues here in Washington, D.C. 11



### MR. PAGE: I need you to spell your name 12


### first for the court reporter. 13



### MR. PENNIMAN: Sure. Sure. It's William 14


### Penniman, P as in Pennsylvania, E

- N

- N

- I

- M

- A

- N. 15



### MR. PAGE: Excuse me for interrupting. 16



### Go ahead. 17



### MR. PENNIMAN: That's fine. 18



### MR. PAGE: Please proceed. 19



### MR. PENNIMAN: Today, though, I am here 20


### as an individual as a husband, a parent, a 21



### grandparent, an an uncle. I have 20 great 22

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### grandchildren

-- or grandchildren, plus my own 1


### children. I mean, grand nieces and nephews, plus 2


### my own grandchildren. And I can say that they 3


### will be alive in 2100. My children will be alive 4


### in 2050. I may not make it. But I can assure 5


### you that folks who tell you this is too far off 6



### in the future , they are the future. They're 7


### alive now, we need to move now to protect them. 8



### I strongly support what EPA has proposed. 9



### It's very generous to the states, unprecedented 10


### as far as I can tell in terms of offering states 11


### flexibility to come up with ways of solving the 12


### climate pollution dilemma. 13


### Climate change is real. We need to act 14


### now. The Co2 emitted today will be in the 15


### atmosphere for hundreds if not thousands of 16


### years, and the longer we wait the more costly it 17


### will be. A study just released yesterd ay by the 18



### White House Council of Economic advisers 19


### confirming that the longer we wait the more 20


### costly it gets. 21


### Opponents are essentially taking the 22

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### approach of the tobacco companies. Confuse the 1


### public on science, plead for more time in the 2



### name of their profits at the expense of other 3



### people's health. And now there's a new one of 4


### hiding behind poor people. 5


### I would simply say with respect to poor 6


### people, that is an important issue. It was 7


### important for the Affordable Care Act, it is 8


### important here. 9



### But i n this area there are readily 10


### available solutions including improved energy 11


### efficiency in the homes of people, which will cut 12



### their bills even if the rates go up some, and 13


### that's something that EPA has recognized. And 14



### then there are also rate solutions su ch as a 15


### lifeline rates which have a low block initially 16



### and then rise with consumption , also an effective 17


### way of encouraging energy efficiency. 18


### What I'd like to do though, from here, is 19


### simply come in on some practical suggestions for 20



### how EPA should go abo ut implementing the rule. 21


### First, I agree with many others that it 22

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### would be valuable to strengthen the requirements 1


### for 2020, the 2020 to 20209 period and 2030. 2



### There sho u ldn't

-- it should be quite 3


### possible to achieve a 30 percent reduction by 4



### 2020 and a 35 to 40 percent reduction by 2030. 5


### Given the general recognition that we 6


### need to reduce Co2 pollution by 80 percent from 7


### 1990 levels by 2050, it's very important we start 8


### that trajectory now because a smoother path to 9


### that ultimate end is going to do

-- is going to 10


### be much more beneficial economically. 11



### And the goals you've set or proposed are 12


### relatively modest, given how much progress has 13


### already been made and the technologies now 14



### availa b le. 15


### Second, please reject the arguments by 16



### some states and fossil fuel companies and 17


### utilities for delaying the rules. Again, we need 18



### to move sooner rather than later for the sake of 19


### my grandchildren, children, and the rest of my 20


### family, and yours. 21


### Third, prepare for the resistant states

. 22

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### You have been as generous as I can imagine in 1


### terms of suggesting ways, responding to the 2


### desire for flexibility. Nevertheless, based on 3


### the experience I've seen in Virginia and other 4


### states regarding the Affordable Care Act, you can 5


### expect that there will be a certain amount of 6



### sim ple recalcitrants. 7


### For that reason I urge you to finalize 8


### the rules by March or April of 2015, rather than 9



### June, so there's more time to work on 10


### implementation plans. In that rule set a 11


### schedule by which draft plans and progress has to 12



### be shown before t he final rule so there isn't 13


### just some kind of surprise dropping a bad plan in 14



### on you. 15


### And beware of extending the timeframe for 16


### compliance for those states that want to do an 17


### interstate solution. I'm not opposed to that 18


### concept. REGGI and similar progra ms would make a 19


### lot of sense, but they need to have a compliant 20


### plan already prepared by June 2016, even if they 21


### say, okay, delay its actual implementation 22

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### because we'll come up with a better one. But you 1


### need something in place to fall back on. 2



### And the l ast thing is to prepare your 3


### federal implementation plans sooner rather than 4


### later. If it requires new proceedings, initiate 5


### those proceedings now so that the FIPs are in 6


### place, ready to go for those states that fail to 7


### come through. The more notice they have, the 8



### better off we'll all be. 9



### But beyond that, thank you very much for 10


### embarking on this process and I encourage you to 11


### stick with it and help reduce Co2 pollution. 12



### Thank you very much. 13



### MR. PAGE: Great. Thank you both for 14


### your testimony today. 15



### Our next speakers are Alan Loeb and Kara 16



### Rinaldi. 17


### MR. PENNIMAN: Can I give you written 18


### copies? 19



### MR. PAGE: Please. Yeah, in fact if 20


### you'll give them to the people out at the desk

-- 21



### MR. PENNIMAN: I will do that. 22

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### MR. PAGE:

-- that would be great. Thank 1



### you very much. 2



### MR. PENNIMAN: Thank you. 3



### MR. PAGE: Uh

- huh. Alan Loeb and Kara 4



### Rinaldi. 5



### MS. RINALDI: I'm Kara, not Alan. 6


### MR. PAGE: I was coming to that 7


### conclusion. All right. I'm good. 8


### All right. Mr. Loeb, you're up first. 9



### MR. LOEB: Let me cue myse lf up here. 10


### MR. PAGE: All right. What is that 11


### saying? The first shall be first or last shall 12



### be first? 13



### MR. LOEB: I'm sorry? 14


### MR. PAGE: Nothing. 15



### MR. LOEB: Sorry to be delayed. 16


### MR. PAGE: That's all right. 17



### MR. LOEB: I'm so

-- 18



### MR. PAGE: Just when you' re ready. 19


### MR. LOEB: All right. I hope I don't run 20



### over because I have a lot to say. 21



### I'm Alan Loeb. I've worked for both 22

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### sides in this issue, both at EPA as Senior 1


### Attorney in the lead phase down, and later as 2



### council to electric utilities. But I do n ot 3


### represent any party that has an interest in the 4


### current rulemaking. Instead I'm speaking today 5


### as a professor of environmental policy and as a 6



### historical of air quality regulation. 7


### To avoid repeating comments that have 8


### already been made I'm going to fo cus on issues 9



### you probably haven't heard. The theme of my 10


### comment is, those who cannot remember the past 11


### are condemned to repeat it. 12


### Let me start by saying that I support 13


### EPA's proposal, however I find it much too timid. 14



### EPA proposes to reduce power pl ants Co2 emissions 15


### by 30 percent, which it calls a final goal. This 16


### is a good start, but as one who has worked in a 17



### program that took all the lead out, I expect 18


### something called a final goal to actually solve 19



### the problem. 20


### The proposal does not say how thi s rule 21


### fits into the larger scheme, that is how great a 22

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### reduction would be needed to solve the problem 1


### and how much that reduction is accomplished by 2



### this rule. 3


### This is in sharp contrast to the 1970 4


### Clean Air Act amendments which gave both a number 5



### and a plan. Congress required ambient air 6


### quality standards, and for mobile sources it 7


### decided it would take out a 90 percent reduction 8


### in tail pipe emissions to get attainment. And so 9


### it set tail pipe emission standards to actually 10



### do that. 11



### So we see in his tory there has been a 12


### great deal of success with technology forcing, 13


### but the 30 percent reduction asked for in this 14


### rule represents a case of gradualism. 15


### From the historical perspective 16


### gradualism has little benefit and may even 17



### backfire. Look at the lead phase down in the 18


### 1970s. Refiners asked EPA to go slow in getting 19


### the lead out, so EPA set the reductions in phase, 20



### hence the name Lead Phase down

. 21



### However, when refiners started to meet 22

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### the standards they found that the gradualism they 1



### had asked for act ually created inefficiencies 2


### because it cost a refinery more to set up to meet 3


### one phase, then reconfigure for the next phase, 4


### and so on. Recognizing this, some who had the 5


### capital to go forward went all unleaded all at 6


### once, which was less expensive over all, but then 7


### they had costs they couldn't recover in the short 8


### term because the standard wasn't stringent enough 9



### to create consumer demand for all the unleaded 10



### they could produce. 11


### And there are a great many examples like 12



### that. 13


### Eventually the refiners re alized how much 14


### they regretted all this and EPA set up a trading 15


### and banking market to let the parties work out 16


### the differences among themselves. The lesson is 17


### that unless an industry is completely uniform 18


### there will always be equity conflicts. 19



### If EPA g oes slow it penalizes those who 20


### have made the investment to go fast. Rather than 21


### engage in resolving these conflicts EPA should 22

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### stick to its mission and push the technological 1



### limits. 2


### I foresee similar problems in the 3


### electricity generation sector regar ding capital 4


### investment. Suppose a generation plant uses one 5


### of the building blocks, for example, it 6


### substitutes gas for coal. And then it finds out 7


### in 10 years that that's inadequate to meet a new 8


### standard EPA is proposing. 9



### In that case EPA's proposal, if followed, 10



### when induced the industry

-- would have induced 11


### the industry to build infrastructure it might 12



### then have to abandon. It would then of course 13


### vigorously resist the standard making it harder 14


### for EPA to go forward in its own mission. We 15



### would ca ll that the psychology of sunk costs. 16



### The lesson is that a standard that is too 17


### timid induces people to build infrastructure that 18



### will have to be taken down later in order to 19


### achieve the true final goal. So you've heard the 20


### phrase, the perfect is the enem y of the good. 21


### Well, in this case the good is the enemy of the 22

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### perfect. 1


### And further EPA seems to be counting 2


### industry to know better when to take the final 3



### standard

-- better than to take the final 4


### standard as actually final. Those people in 5


### industry a ren't fools. They can see the 6


### inevitable. EPA will impose future standards. 7


### So we need to put aside the charade

. 8



### Let's call this an interim standard rather than a 9


### final standard, or phase one, or something of the 10



### like. Let's call it what it is. 11



### Better still would be to develop a 12


### trading and banking market which we did use in 13


### the lead phase down to accelerate reductions and 14


### that resolved the equity conflicts. And that 15



### would allow EPA to accelerate, for example, the 16


### 30 percent goal by five to seven year s and get a 17


### 50 percent or greater reduction by 2030. If we 18


### have that mechanism in place we can do more. 19


### Do you know how much time I have left? 20


### MR. SOLOMON: Eight seconds. 21



### MR. LOEB: Huh? 22

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### MR. PAGE: Eight seconds. 1


### MR. LOEB: Eight seconds. Eighty 2



### secon ds? 3


### MR. PAGE: Eight. Actually

-- well. 4


### MR. LOEB: So I thank you. There will be 5


### written comments and in those comments I am going 6


### to take up the general question of the validity 7


### of the whole notion of the climate skeptics. 8



### It's an old argument. It was developed by the 9


### refineries with lead in the 1920s, and when you 10


### look at it philosophically it's a bad idea and as 11


### always disserve the public interest. 12



### MR. PAGE: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Loeb. 13


### And we'll look forward to receiving your written 14



### comments. Tha nk you. 15



### Kara? 16



### MS. RINALDI: Thank you. Thank you for 17


### this opportunity to testify today on the EPA 18



### proposed rule. 19



### MR. PAGE: Can I get you to spell your 20



### name

-- 21



### MS. RINALDI: Oh, sure. 22

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### MR. PAGE:

-- for the court reporter? 1



### Sorry. 2



### MS. RINALDI: Absolutel y. Kara, K

- A

- R

- A, 3



### Saul, S

- A

- U

- L, Rinaldi, R

- I

- N

- A

- L

- D

- I. 4



### MR. PAGE: Thank you. Sorry for 5


### interrupting. 6


### MS. RINALDI: Oh, of course. My name is 7


### Kara Saul Rinaldi, what we just covered. And I 8



### am the Vice President of Government Affairs and 9


### Policy for t he Home Performance Coalition. 10



### The Home Performance Coalition is a 11


### nonprofit 501C3 that advances policy change 12


### through policy maker education, stakeholder 13



### engagement, and research. 14


### First we want to applaud the 15


### Administration for this important effort to 16



### r egulate carbon emissions and for the recognition 17


### in the rule that energy efficiency should be a 18


### part of the answer to carbon reductions. 19



### We believe Home Performance meets the 20


### BSER test and is a crucial part of building block 21


### four in the proposed rule. In fact, with more 22

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### than 113 million residences consuming 22 percent 1


### of U.S. energy, this sector is a crucial part of 2


### any program that targets emissions reductions

. 3


### We are here today to offer suggestions 4


### for improvements to the draft regulations and we 5


### will p rovide further details in our October 16th 6



### comments. 7


### We urge EPA to consider allowing states 8


### to account for natural gas savings and energy 9


### efficiency programs. While we recognize that 10


### offsets are not allowed by the Clean Air Act, we 11


### urge EPA to recognize the unintended consequences 12


### that could be associated with fuel switching and 13



### the carbon that would not be captured and 14



### measured. As well as the inefficiencies and 15


### delivery of energy efficiency services that may 16


### come by excluding efficiency gains from gas and 17


### other heating fuels under the rule. 18


### For example, in the residential sector 19



### current home energy efficiency and energy home 20



### performance programs that aim to reduce the 21


### overall energy use of a home, may instead be 22

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### encouraged by the rule to switch from ele ctric 1


### heating to natural gas heating without ensuring 2


### that this effort is coupled with air sealing and 3



### insulation. 4



### Unless the home is well insulated the 5


### opportunity to achieve potential savings through 6


### the upgrade will be lost. Further, the carbon 7



### emitt ed from the natural gas heater will not be 8



### measured. We recommend that EPA offer states 9


### best practices for ensuring the energy savings is 10



### maximized in residential programs. 11



### Please also know that not all energy 12


### efficiency programs are created equal. Today 13


### rate pair funding programs are usually required 14


### to pass a cost effectiveness test. These tests 15


### are based on five tests originally developed in 16



### the 1970's California Standard Practice Manual. 17


### Despite more recent updates these tests 18


### are often implemented i n ways that are biased 19


### against deeper energy efficiency investments 20



### because they do not account for all the costs, 21


### and frequently ignore many benefits. 22

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### A new screen effort developed by the Home 1



### Performance Coalition and numerous partners, 2



### called the Resour ce Valued Framework provides a 3


### powerful tool for public utility commissions to 4



### ensure that their cost effectiveness tests are 5


### balanced, transparent, and account for public 6


### policy goals. We urge EPA to recommend the use 7



### of the RVF in states that wish to te st their 111D 8


### compliance programs for cost effectiveness in 9


### order to encourage deeper energy savings 10


### opportunities. 11



### Home performance programs have many 12


### different designs as noted in the proposed rule. 13


### From deemed savings to model savings to measured 14



### sav ings, there are best practices that we urge 15


### EPA to include in its guidance to states 16


### developing their implementation plans. 17


### We will provide further input in our 18


### comments but as a preliminary statement we urge 19


### EPA today to consider that there are new 20



### tech nologies emerging every day in the market 21



### place that can assist with program design and 22

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### carbon measurement. 1


### Smart meter proliferation is providing 2



### crucial new data sources on home energy 3


### consumption. Home energy management devices from 4



### technology that m easure plug load and energy 5


### current signature are further disaggregating that 6



### data. 7



### Furthermore advanced thermostats and 8


### smart phone applications are providing crucial 9



### communications between utilities and homeowners. 10


### We are at a turning point for new ho me 11



### energy technology and data and analytics

. 12


### Standards, protocols and platforms are just being 13



### developed. We strongly recommend that EPA 14


### recognizes needs and revolution and ensure that 15



### their regulations do not close the door on new 16


### technologies and progr am design that encourage 17



### innovation. 18


### As EPA develops its rule for evaluation 19


### measurement verification we urge the 20


### consideration of energy consumption data as 21


### provided by utilities. The data in the form of 22

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### both traditional utility bills and more advanced 1



### t echnologies such as smart devices and home 2


### energy management systems can provide valuable 3


### information about energy use that can contribute 4


### to accurate quantifications and savings. This 5


### information should be recognize and considered 6


### for use in EMV protocol s. However, protocols and 7


### policies that allow for both data access and 8


### analytics may take time to develop. We encourage 9


### EPA to include the use of this data specifically 10



### in the EMV rules. 11


### Finally and importantly we ask EPA to 12


### consider the nonrepair funded solutions to energy 13


### savings in the private sector and encourage 14


### aggregation in the development of a registry to 15


### register and retire emissions that private 16


### contractors and companies can provide to 17


### electricity reductions outside the utility 18



### programs. 19



### Thank you on behalf of the Home 20



### Performance Coalition for this opportunity to 21


### testify. While there are great gains to be made 22

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### in the other 4BSERs, please ensure that continued 1


### attention is paid to the only element of the rule 2


### that directly includes small busine sses and 3


### average Americans, the energy reductions in the 4


### residential sector. Thank you. 5



### MR. PAGE: Great. Thank you both for 6


### your testimony. 7


### Our next speakers are Floyd Gilzow and 8


### Stefan Bogdanovic. 9



### Floyd, when you're ready. 10



### MR. GILZOW: I'm ready. And before you 11


### ask, the name is Floyd, F

- L

- O

- Y

- D, last name is 12



### Gilzow, G

- I

- L, Z as in zebra, O

- W. 13



### MR. PAGE: Thank you. 14


### MR. GILZOW: My name is Floyd Gilzow, 15



### Vice President of Environmental Affairs for the 16



### Missouri Joint Municipal Electric Utility 17



### Commissi on, a state entity representing over 60 18


### municipal electric utilities ranging in size from 19



### 1200

-- or 12,000 meters

-- let me try that 20


### again, 120,000 meters to as few as 200. 21


### Coincidentally I also happen to be the 22

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### former Deputy Director of the Missouri De partment 1


### of Natural Resources, and in that job oversaw the 2


### state energy efficiency program for low income 3



### individuals. 4


### The EPA guidelines as written under 5


### Section 111D regrettably ignore well

- established 6


### economic principles in the United States, and 7



### don' t provide enough time to implement the most 8



### cost effective solutions. 9


### EPA admits in their regulatory impact 10


### analysis that growth and the availability of 11


### electric power in this country has closely 12



### paralleled the growth in our economy for decades. 13



### Yet they also now claim economic growth does not 14


### require commensurate electric energy growth. 15


### To whatever degree that assertion may be 16


### true nationally at a macro level, and may be 17


### differentially true for states with economies 18


### weighed towards finance, software, ente rtainment, 19



### and tourism, it is not accurate for states such 20


### as Missouri that still build cars, process or 21


### produce aluminum, process meat and lumber, or 22

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### have other energy intensive industries. 1


### Regulatory fiat cannot divorce the 2



### connection between base load electric power and 3


### growth in the economy. 4


### Further, the draft guidelines envision an 5


### electric generation in transmission system that 6


### will be revolutionary, not evolutionary in the 7


### near term. For instance, we may not know the 8



### details of what the State of Missouri will 9


### require until sometime in 2018. However, we will 10


### be required to start complying with the rules by 11


### 2020, achieving over 82 percent of the final goal 12


### in the first nine years. 13


### A period of less than two years is not 14


### long enough to make and imple ment decisions that 15


### will change one of the nation's largest industry 16


### sectors forever and raise customer rates by more 17


### than simple double digits for decades in the 18



### future. 19


### We need at least five years from the 20


### final approved state plan to the implementation 21


### of the glide path toward final compliance. 22

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### In closing, and that may sound strange, 1


### I'd like to pose five unanswered questions not 2


### found in the draft rule that I hope EPA will 3


### consider in addressing the final rule. 4



### The Supreme Court appears to say that EP A 5


### has the legal authority to limit the amount of 6


### Co2 emissions coming from an electric generating 7


### unit. But what state or federal legal authority, 8


### and I stress legal authority, can EPA cite that 9


### can force the owner of a combined cycle natural 10



### gas plant to operate their unit at 70 percent of 11


### capacity if they decide not to? 12



### And if EPA can't cite that law how can we 13


### have a best available system of emission 14



### reductions that is both enforceable and 15


### measurable as EPA requires? 16


### Second, how expensive does EPA beli eve 17


### that electric power has to become before it curbs 18


### the general public's insatiable desire for more 19


### and more electric power? And what are the 20


### environmental justice implications of this 21


### approach for financially disadvantaged 22

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### populations since even EPA ad mits that the rule 1



### will raise electric bills in the short run. 2


### Thirdly, the nation's natural gas system 3


### of production and distribution could not meet 4


### demands for fuel during weather extremes this 5


### past winter. In fact there were a number of 6



### power plants th at could not operate because of a 7


### lack of natural gas. What changes in drilling 8


### rates and trenching for new natural gas pipelines 9



### does EPA foresee that will allow it to meet the 10


### additional demand for natural gas to generate 11


### millions of megawatt hours of e lectricity in 2020 12



### and beyond? 13



### And what economic and environmental 14


### impacts will those shifts have on those who use 15



### natural gas for other purposes such as 16


### residential heating? 17


### Finally, how does EPA propose that states 18


### mitigate the increased exposure to ex tended 19


### electric power outage caused by natural disasters 20


### during hurricanes, storms, and earthquakes as 21


### pipelines are severed and pipeline pump stations 22

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### are closed down by floods? 1



### You see, coal plants generally keep 45 2


### days or more of fuel on site to deal with 3


### delivery outages. While natural gas plants have 4


### only seconds of onsite storage after a disaster. 5


### My fear is the Administration is poised 6


### to make the very same major policy error that 7


### another administration made 40 years ago when 8


### they insisted that f ederal action rather than 9


### market place should decide whether we relied on 10



### more or less natural gas to generate electricity

. 11


### Today's reliance on coal for electricity is in 12


### large part because utilities were prohibited from 13


### building natural gas plants in the 1970s by law. 14


### It's ironic that many of the coal plants these 15


### guidelines will force to close are the very same 16


### ones built when it was illegal to build natural 17



### gas plants. 18


### Thank you for the time and for your 19



### attention this afternoon. 20



### MR. PAGE: Thank you , Mr. Gilzow. 21



### MR. BOGDANOVIC: Thank you for the 22

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### opportunity. My name is Stefan Bogdanovic, S

- T

1



### E

- F

- A

- N B

- O

- G

- D

- A

- N

- O

- V

- I

- C. 2


### I am from Richmond, Virginia and I am 3



### with the Sierra Club, but I'm also my business in 4



### renewable energy, and solar thermal, and I am a 5



### consultant for bio diesel made out of used 6


### cooking oil. 7


### I see the climate power plan as

-- plan 8


### as a beginning. It is a much cheaper action than 9


### to heal and treat a sick population from asthma 10


### and cancer. It's even cheaper as double digit 11



### loss of ( indiscernible)**1:46:36 because of sick 12


### days. It's also cheaper than destruction of sea 13



### level rise. 14


### The U.S.A. signed up, but did not ratify 15


### the cure protocol to reduce emissions of 16


### greenhouse gas by 5.2 percent. This took place 17


### in 1997 and came into p ower in 2005. It is time 18



### to act now, to reduce carbon dioxide, 19



### (indiscernible)**14655 sulfur , emissions from 20


### power sector to achieve the state's specific 21



### goals. 22

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### The guidelines for states should be 1


### strictly controlled by the EPA and loopholes 2



### should be clo sed. 3


### In Virginia, particularly a matter of 4


### coal plants and coal transport on streets is 5



### visual as such dust on outside surface is 6



### everywhere. 7


### I expect from the climate power plan, 8



### even more support for renewable energy resources 9


### with tax credits, grants, and other possibilities 10


### and not any limitation or quantity regulations. 11



### For example the EPA should not postpone 12


### what it's doing now where it waited a long time 13


### announcing referring production quantities or 14


### (indiscernible)**14738 to frighten bio diesel 15



### pr oducers. 16


### According to the EPA bio diesel made out 17


### of used cooking oil and other waste is 18


### sustainable. Introduce greenhouse gas emissions 19


### so carbon dioxide by up to 86 percent when 20


### compared with petroleum diesel. It contains 21



### reduced up to

-- it contains v ery high oxygen, 11 22

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### percent, sulfur is reduced to 98 percent, inside 1


### emissions are reduced to 50 percent, and 2


### carcinogenic substances are dramatically reduced. 3


### For example the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons 4


### are reduced by 98 percent. After 21 days bio 5


### diesel is fully biodegradable. 6


### I ask for more legislative support for 7


### bio diesel made of used cooking oil as a perfect 8



### way for reuse and create clean fuels . I support 9


### every EPA effort to reduce environmental impact 10


### from coal and risky technology, and I'm talking 11


### about fracking and shale gas. 12



### I believe in the cost effectiveness of 13


### renewable energy as a way to address climate 14


### change, and I have created the profitable, 15


### sustainable, worldwide business. Thank you. 16



### MR. PAGE: Thank you all very much. If 17



### you want to submit your testimony to the front 18



### desk, that would be great. Thank you. 19


### We're going to have the next two speakers 20


### come up. Michael Hornsby and Bernadette 21



### Lemasters, and after that we'll take about a 10, 22

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### 15 minute break. Mr. Hornsby, we've got y ou up 1


### first. If you'll spell your name for the court 2



### reporter that would be great. 3


### MR. HORNSBY: Thank you. Michael 4



### Hornsby, H

- O

- R

- N

- S

- B

- Y. From New Jersey, 5


### representing myself. 6


### I'm here today to testify in support of 7


### EPA's Clean Power Plan in the propo sed 111D 8


### regulations. 9


### Climate change is a clear and present 10


### danger to our economic, our environment , our 11


### health and safety, and our national security. 12


### A carbon tax, an economy wide revenue 13


### neutral carbon tax is probably the best platform 14



### to deliver car bon reductions. Since we 15



### apparently lack the political will to do that, at 16


### least at present, EPA's proposed regulations are 17



### the next best choice. 18


### Since power plants are the largest source 19


### of carbon emissions its entirely appropriate that 20


### EPA's regulation s focus on these power plants. 21


### As a volunteer firefighter I see 22

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### firsthand the hurricanes, flooding, lightening 1



### strikes, and other extreme weather events that 2


### are happening on an increasing basis. This needs 3



### to be turned around. 4



### The United Sates likes to view ourselves 5



### as the indispensible nation. Well, there 6



### couldn't be a clearer case to be that 7


### indispensible nation right now and take 8


### leadership on climate change. Thank you. 9



### MR. PAGE: Thank you very much. 10



### Bernadette. 11


### MS. LEMASTERS: My name is Bernade tte 12



### Lemasters. That's B

- E

- R

- N

- A

- D

- E

- T

- T

- E L

- E

- M

- A

- S

13



### T

- E

- R

- S. And I'm here representing myself. I'm 14



### also currently a graduate student at George Mason 15


### University but I'm not getting any credits for 16


### being here. 17


### I'm really excited to be here. I love 18



### heari ng debate, back and forth, actually talking 19


### through these issues. And the fact that we're 20


### here to discuss the pros and cons of this 21


### approach is really heartening. 22

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### I wanted to come here just to make a very 1


### simple point because I still hear back and forth 2



### o n some very simple basic concepts. We can talk 3


### about cost, implementation, effectiveness of this 4


### approach, whether it's going too far, it's not 5


### going far enough, both sides questioning these 6


### things. But just to think about how incredible 7



### is it that we, a s human beings, can even have an 8


### effect on our climate. And in theory this is 9


### whether or not you believe this is currently even 10


### happening. But just the idea that we can by 11


### changing the composition of the atmosphere, can 12


### change the climate, and just the i mplications of 13



### that. 14


### When we've approach natural disasters 15


### previously we've changed our terrain ; we've 16


### restructured rivers, we've done flood gates, and 17


### we've seen unintended consequences of these 18


### things. But we're actually here at a point where 19



### we can c hange the climate itself, and affect the 20


### likelihood and severity of natural disasters like 21


### hurricanes, droughts, and heat waves. 22

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### In the past when we've seen ourselves 1



### with these abilities we've tended to use it for 2



### our advantage and that's been the norm. And I'm 3


### not saying that we need to tamper the atmosphere 4


### to put it to our advantage. I'd be more 5


### comfortable with just leaving it untampered. But 6


### my point is that we're actually doing the 7


### opposite of the norm. 8


### We not only have evidence that we can 9



### im pact our climate but that we're doing so to our 10



### own detriment. And there's been discussions of 11


### winners and losers of global warming, but overall 12


### we are taking

-- we are talking greater severity 13


### and greater frequency of natural disasters. We 14


### are talking a bout greater likelihood of species, 15


### especially those that are not very mobile or that 16


### are sensitive to temperatures going extinct. We 17


### are talking about pressures on our natural 18


### resources. Water is a huge discussion right now. 19


### Water being stressed as wat er resources melt or 20


### dry up sooner than expected with an accelerated 21



### water cycle. 22

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### And if you believe that we are in an area 1



### which we can affect our own climate it makes 2


### sense to monitor these activities. And I really, 3


### I think our government has done a won derful job 4


### monitoring these activities. 5


### And then if we see that we're going in a 6


### direction to our detriment, managing it. 7



### And for too long we've been stuck on even 8


### just these very basic concepts. But I am 9



### heartened that on both sides of the aisle ther e 10



### are some folks who do agree that we're having an 11



### effect on our climate. Let's monitor it and then 12


### let's also manage it if we see ourselves going in 13



### the direction of our detriment. 14


### I'm heartened by this regulation because 15


### we are talking about what is the most cost 16



### effective, what is feasible, what is

-- where are 17


### the unintended consequences. This regulation, we 18



### ask most states to set goals, but we leave a lot 19


### of the decision making to the states so that they 20


### can tailor how they want to manage emissions i n a 21


### way that's feasible, in a way that's cost 22

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### effective for their situation for their energy 1


### portfolio

. 2


### And there's a lot of expertise and a lot 3


### of resources to be tapped. At my own university 4



### I see there's a lot of programs, a lot of 5


### excitement among t he students to get involved in 6


### energy efficiency businesses related to the 7



### different

-- using market incentives at utility 8


### companies, energy efficiency, retrofitting homes. 9


### So basically I am heartened that we are moving 10


### beyond the basic questions and into the real 11



### debates. 12


### And just speaking from what I've seen of 13


### nonprofits, for profits in my own university, we 14



### have the inter e st, we have the expertise and the 15


### impetus . So let's make things more energy 16


### efficient and let's reduce the greenhouse gases. 17



### MR. PAGE: Great. Thank you both for 18


### your testimony today. We appreciate it. 19


### At this point we're going to take about a 20



### 10 minute break. We'll reconvene about 10 after 21



### 3:00. 22

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### (Recess from 2:57 p.m. until 3:15 p.m.) 1


### MR. PAGE: We're going to resume our 2



### he aring and in case you all weren't here earlier 3


### we have a ground rule of speaking for five 4


### minutes. We're welcoming any testimony. If you 5


### don't finish your statement we're glad to take 6


### any testimony you have today that you can get 7



### through, or by October 1 6th is the deadline for 8


### submitting testimony. 9


### MS. PIEN: If we have extra copies to 10


### leave with you? 11



### MR. PAGE: Please leave those at the 12


### desk. The gentleman standing there by the door 13


### will be glad to take them from you. We love 14


### written testimony to accom pany the verbal as 15



### well. 16



### MS. PIEN: Okay. 17


### MR. PAGE: All right? Our first speaker 18



### is Natalie Pien. Is that

-- 19


### MS. PIEN: Pien, yes. 20



### MR. PAGE: Pien. Good. And Andrea 21


### McGinsey will follow. And if you guys will stay 22

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### at the table until both of you are fi nished, 1



### that's great. Okay? 2


### Natalie, when you're ready. 3



### MS. PIEN: Okay. 4



### MR. PAGE: And please spell your name for 5



### the court reporter. 6


### MS. PIEN: Okay. My name is Natalie, N

7



### A

- T

- A

- L

- I

- E, Pien, P

- I

- E

- N. 8


### Hello. My name is Natalie Pien and I am 9



### from ne arby Leesburg, Virginia. Thank you for 10


### the opportunity to speak to you today. 11


### I am here to support strong regulations 12


### for carbon dioxide emissions from existing 13


### electric power plants. I will speak first as a 14



### mother, then as a teacher, our church Green Te am 15



### co

- leader, an environmental activist, and finally 16


### as a responsible human being. 17


### I am blessed with two beautiful daughters 18


### who are pursuing their life's passion. My older 19


### daughter, Rene is living in Montreal, Canada 20


### studying set and costume design at th e National 21



### Theater School of Canada. My younger daughter, 22

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### Elise, is studying physical therapy at Old 1


### Dominion University in Norfolk, Virginia. Elisa 2



### is the one I'm concerned about. 3



### Norfolk is the second most vulnerable 4



### area in terms of sea level rise and it is already 5


### subject to recurrent flooding. Norfolk will 6



### become the next New Orleans when it sustains the 7


### impact of a hurricane. Luckily Superstorm Sandy 8



### did not strike Norfolk. But luck cannot be 9



### depended on. 10


### Elise, through no fault of her own, is 11



### li ving in harm's way. Mothers worry a lot about 12


### things. The impact of climate change should not 13



### be one of them. 14



### I have had two wonderful careers. First 15


### as an environmental scientist working in the 16


### public sector, then as a science teacher in 17



### Loudon County Public Schools. 18



### For the past 15 years I've co

- sponsored 19



### an ecology club and helped our school be 20


### recognized as a Virginia Naturally school. This 21


### is a picture of the pollinator garden in front of 22

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### the school. Here are ecology club students 1


### planting or con structing raised bed vegetable 2


### gardens and harvesting. 3



### Regrettably the environmental stewardship 4


### my students have developed is not recognized by 5


### today's adults who are in power. Instead of 6


### stewardship the Earth is exploited for its 7



### natural resources. The se people place short term 8


### profits over long term sustainability, public 9



### health, and safety. 10



### I also work with adults. I am the Green 11



### Team co

- chair at my church, the Unitarian 12


### Universals Church of Loudon. I joined the 13


### Unitarian faith for many reasons, c hief of which 14


### is its seventh principle, respect for the 15


### interdependent web of life of all existence of 16


### which we are a part. This guiding principle 17


### recognizes the truths that we depend on nature 18



### and that our behavior affects nature. 19



### At church the Green T eam has initiated 20


### environmentally friendly practices, organized 21


### green sermons, hosted the first annual Loudon 22

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### interfaith bridges meeting focused on climate 1


### change, promoting several climate change 2


### petitions including one that led to the recent 3



### national Uni tarian Universals Association 4


### unanimously voting to adopt the resolution to 5


### divest from the fossil fuel industry. 6



### As current chair of 350 Loudon, a local 7


### chapter of Bill McKibben's international 350.org, 8



### I am privileged to work with other activists who 9



### are passionate about raising awareness of climate 10


### change in conservative Loudon County. 11


### We have spoken publically on issues that 12


### exacerbate climate change to many regulatory 13


### bodies, including our own County Board of 14


### Supervisors, our representatives to the Vi rginia 15


### Assembly, the Virginia State Corporation 16


### Commission, and of course to you. 17


### We host local climate change rallies, as 18


### well as participate in regional and national 19


### rallies. We reach out to the community in many 20


### ways such as multifilms, exhibiting at c ommunity 21


### festivals, marching in local parades, and writing 22

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### letters to the editor. 1


### One of our members, Jerry Lee Stuart, is 2



### in the middle of the Great March for Climate, 3


### walking from California to Washington, D.C. 4


### As a responsible human aware of climate 5



### c hange, I strive to live a sustainable lifestyle. 6


### My husband and I designed and built a passive 7



### solar home. A few years ago we added solar 8


### photovoltaic panels that provide 100 percent of 9


### our electrical energy needs from May until 10



### October. 11



### The last car we purchased was a Honda 12


### Insight hybrid, and our next car will be a plug

13


### in electric hybrid with a range to meet our daily 14


### commuting needs. We have a vegetable garden and 15


### freeze vegetables in the winter. We shop at our 16



### local farmers markets, supporting the local 17


### economy while reducing greenhouse gas emissions 18


### from long distance transportation of food. 19


### We also adopted a more environmentally 20


### friendly diet by becoming vegetarians. Some 21


### experts estimate that vegetarians reduce their 22

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### carbon footprint by as much as 50 percent. 1



### As you can see, my husband and I have 2


### taken many steps towards reducing our carbon 3


### footprint and living in an environmentally 4


### friendly way. I have done my best to be a 5


### champion for the environment and to fight climate 6



### change. 7



### Today I am a sking you to do your best to 8


### stop electric power plants from freely polluting 9


### our vital air resource. The price of carbon 10


### pollution must be paid by the polluter, not the 11


### people, through increased health care costs, 12



### infrastructure costs, or insurance costs

. 13


### Your regulations would be an essential 14


### step towards reducing our nation's greenhouse gas 15


### emissions and transitioning from a fossil fuel 16



### energy based economy to a clean renewable energy 17



### based economy. 18



### The air we breathe is an essential common 19



### resource f or everyone and it must be protected. 20


### We owe it today to our children and tomorrow for 21


### future generations. Thank you. 22

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### MR. PAGE: Thank you. Andrea. 1



### MS. MCGIMSEY: Good afternoon. My name 2


### is Andrea McGimsey. I live in Leesburg, 3


### Virginia. I’m a forme r member of the Loudon 4


### County Board of Supervisors, and I am a volunteer 5


### climate leader with Climate Reality Project. 6


### I'm speaking to you today as a deeply 7


### concerned citizen about the most important issue 8


### facing mankind, climate change. 9



### I fully support the EPA's plans to 10


### regulate carbon emissions from power plants, and 11


### I urge you to move forward as quickly as 12


### possible. We have fiddled for too long as the 13


### world around us is literally burning, and we must 14


### reduce our carbon emissions as rapidly as 15


### possibl e. 16


### When I listen to the National Academy of 17


### Sciences, the professors at my alma mater, MIT, 18


### scientists in my home state of Virginia, I grow 19


### increasingly worried and feel a tremendous sense 20



### of urgency. 21



### Please use my tax dollars and your power 22

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### to regulate fossil fuel burning, including the 1


### current plans to regulate carbon emissions from 2



### power plants. 3


### We are already suffering the consequences 4


### of our profligate burning of fossil fuels, and 5


### the increase of greenhouse gases, which is 6


### changing the world around u s. The droughts
, 7


### fires, floods, huge snowstorms, the wild winds of 8


### the recent derecho, and Hurricane Sandy, and this 9


### weird weather in July here in Virginia and D.C., 10


### are endangering human lives, our prosperity, our 11



### homes, our businesses. 12



### Local government s are overwhelmed and do 13



### not have the money to respond. Trees that have 14


### stood for centuries, witnessing the founding of 15


### our country are dying due to the heat wave and 16


### stress from the drought. Wildlife on land and in 17


### the ocean is going extinct. Our abili ty to grow 18


### food is decreasing due to droughts, floods, and 19


### fires. Homes and businesses are blowing over or 20


### being swept away. When are we going to fully 21


### wake up as a society and realize that our very 22

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### lives, and our economies are being threatened. 1



### I'm deep ly appreciative of the EPA's work 2


### on climate change and these proposed rules to 3


### regulate power plants emissions. 4



### Power plants are the largest source of 5


### carbon pollution, producing more than one third 6


### of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions. These rules 7



### are a c ost effective and crucial way to reduce 8


### those emissions and will result in better public 9


### health from reduction of many additional harmful 10



### byproducts of power plants. 11



### Climate deniers and fossil fuel lobbyists 12


### have freedom of speech in this country. However
, 13


### they do not have the right to yell fire in a 14


### movie theater, and they do not have the right to 15



### endanger my present and the future of the 16



### children I love so much. 17


### The citizens of this country are waking 18


### up to climate change and working to make a 19



### differen ce in our own lives. But we need our 20


### government to create the systemic and large 21


### changes needed to reduce carbon emissions in our 22

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### collective air and atmosphere. 1


### For the sake of Kesinia, Ilya, and the 2



### other young people whom I deeply love, please 3



### listen to us citizens who only have our children 4


### at stake, more than those who are arguing for the 5


### profits from fossil fuels. They do not have the 6


### right to harm our future. 7


### In the spring of 2008 I stood in front of 8


### the Capitol with Senator John Warner and other 9


### elected officials, standing together in a 10


### bipartisan way to support the Climate Security 11



### Act. Unfortunately Federal elected leaders 12


### lacked the courage to move forward on this most 13


### urgent of issues. Someday soon I hope they will. 14



### In the meantime the EPA a nd other 15


### government agencies must do everything in their 16


### power to reduce carbon emissions. 17


### Thank you for considering my comments. 18


### It's wonderful to live in a country where I can 19


### speak my mind and where you listen. Thank you. 20



### MR. PAGE: Thank you. Thank you both for 21


### you testimony today. Appreciate it. 22

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### Our next speakers are Kenneth Ward and 1


### Rachael Rogier. Rachael, I think you'll probably 2


### have to help me out on the pronunciation. 3


### MS. ROGIER: You actually got it right. 4


### MR. PAGE: Did I really? 5



### MS. ROGIER : Yeah. 6


### MR. PAGE: Okay. Wow, that's a first. 7


### Okay. Kenneth, you're up first. 8


### MR. WARD: Good morning. Or good 9


### afternoon. My name is Ken Ward, W

- A

- R

- D. I 10



### represent myself. I'm here from Corbett, Oregon. 11


### Thank you for the opportunity to comment on the 12



### EPA's proposed rule. 13



### When my 14 year old boy asked me why I 14


### was going to fly across the country to speak for 15


### five minutes I gave him a kind of a, Mr. Smith 16


### Goes to Washington civic, which he didn't quite 17



### buy. 18


### But I think that I'm actually here, as I 19



### suspect many other speakers are, out of fear. 20


### I'm scared that we're at a singular moment when 21


### my boy's future and that of his generation and 22

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### other generations is on the line. And I don't 1


### think that we're doing the right thing. So I 2



### thought I

-- as one i ndividual I can't do much to 3


### influence the vast powers at play here, but at 4


### least I can take the opportunity to show up. And 5


### that way if my boy asks me what the heck 6


### happened, working on his language now, you know, 7


### I'll say I've done everything I could. 8



### Th e challenge, I've often heard compared 9



### to what the U.S. effort in World War II. Not 10


### that it's the most logical thing to think about 11



### on the scale of what we need to do. And I think 12


### that's useful in imagining what's necessary to 13


### survive, but it's problemat ic because America did 14


### very little to prepare for that war. 15



### After Pearl Harbor, however, the nation 16


### moved with incredible speed. And I didn't know 17


### any of these statistics but I looked them up 18



### recently. We got bombed on December 7th, 19



### automobiles of whic h there were 3 million 20



### manufactured and sold that year, sales were 21


### frozen on January 1st, and all auto manufacturing 22

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### was switched to wartime production by February 1



### 22nd. So that's less than two months to 2


### completely shift the largest industrial operation 3



### i n the nation. 4



### I think that that's what we should be 5


### doing here, in terms of moving from coal to 6


### renewables and efficiency, with that kind of 7


### speed and determination, because we've already 8



### had our Pearl Harbor. 9


### In May, a month before this rule was 10



### released, NASA's Eric Rignot and colleagues, and 11


### an independent group at the University of 12


### Washington, reported that the West Antarctic ice 13


### shelf is now in unstoppable collapse, which by 14


### itself is staggering because that's four feet of 15



### sea level rise that is defini te. 16


### But more profoundly it shatters any 17


### notion that climate change is some moderate and 18


### far off threat. The worst case is happening and 19


### it's happening at a speed that not even our most 20


### worried experts imagined. 21


### I read John Henson's report, the Slippery 22

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### S lope, when it came out in 2004. Well, it was 1


### scary enough at the time, but even then Henson 2


### was talking about the possibility of ice sheet 3


### collapse by occurring in the order of centuries 4


### not millennium, and now we're looking at decades 5



### and years. 6



### And th e rule is, the EPA rule itself is 7


### supporting documents in any of the public 8



### statements I read. There is one reference to 9


### that kind of understanding of a problem, which 10


### was Administrator McCarthy's comment that if we 11


### do nothing temperatures could rise 10 d egrees and 12


### seas could rise by four feet. Which should be

-- 13


### even if we do everything seas will rise by four 14



### feet. But maybe more. 15


### But nothing that I read in the proposed 16


### rule or within the all of above energy policy, 17


### really in any way addresses this leve l of risk. 18


### It seems to me that we need to stop burning coal 19


### now, keep it in the ground. When this plan aims 20


### for 30 percent of our electricity to come from 21



### coal through 2030 and maybe beyond. 22

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### We need a swift and dramatic change from 1



### fossil fuels to effi ciency and ren e wables. This 2


### plan looks for 60 percent reliance on fossil 3


### fuels and is far more concerned with promoting 4


### nuclear power than solar and wind. 5



### And we need to mobilize the nation where 6


### this plan it seems to me, it dumbs down risk, and 7



### in effec t promises to solve the problem. 8


### I don't believe those who say that the 9


### President is kind of cynically avoiding some sort 10


### of tough political fight or advancing some 11


### special interest or another. I think that the 12


### President is in an extremely tough politic al 13


### bind, facing determined opposition which is still 14


### able to focus the debate on whether there is any 15


### such thing as climate change, as Senator Inhofe 16


### did yesterday. And I think this plan seems 17


### crafted primarily to win in these political, 18


### tough political c onditions. 19


### And it is, certainly seems to me, a 20


### masterful political design, a hat trick that it 21


### manages to mute the opposition with 22

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### (indiscernible)**16:54 reference here at 2005 1


### rather than 2012, and helps isolate the total 2


### denial crowd by its very reasona bleness, and 3


### still has environmentalists calling it bold and 4



### courageous. 5


### But winning at the cost of the truth 6


### isn't worth and won't work in the long run. I 7


### think the problems of the plan can be summed up 8


### in three points. 9


### The plan, as presented, is int ended to be 10


### a significant step towards meeting U.S. 11



### commitment in Cancun. The Cancun pledges, even 12


### if they were met, will mean reaching 550 parts 13


### per million atmospheric carbon, and the climate 14


### right now is in free

- fall at 400 percent

-- 400 15


### parts per mil lion; is heading with unbelievable 16


### speed towards conditions which global ecosystems 17


### will collapse and civilization cannot sustain. 18


### It's hard for me to see the plan isn't 19


### frivolous in comparison with what needs to be 20



### done, and that if this is the best that the U.S. 21


### political conditions allow, then we will in fact 22

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### condemn this generation and future generations to 1


### a planet that's beyond fixing. But I think we're 2



### better than that when called. 3


### So I urge that this rule be withdrawn. 4



### In its place, that the Presi dent should present a 5


### graver, franker explanation of the fix we're in 6


### and put forward a serious plan of action that 7



### acts over months and not decades. 8


### In the words of President Lincoln, dogmas 9


### of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy 10



### present. We mu st disenthrall ourselves and then 11



### we shall save our country. 12


### The timeslot that I was given was 3:50 13


### p.m., which I thought was incredibly appropriate, 14


### as that is the number that we should be shooting 15



### for, or lower, and I thank you for the 16


### opportunity to c omment. 17



### MR. PAGE: Thank you, Mr. Ward. Thank 18


### you for coming so far to speak your piece. Thank 19



### you. 20



### Rachael. 21



### MS. ROGIER: Good afternoon. I'm Rachael 22

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### Rogier and I'm with Arch Coal, and I appreciate 1


### having the opportunity to give our comments. 2



### MR. PAGE: Could you spell your last name 3



### for the court reporter? 4



### MS. ROGIER: R

- O

- G

- I

- E

- R. 5



### MR. PAGE: Thank you. 6



### MS. ROGIER: Power generators 7



### transformation of our coal and that of other 8


### producers into low

- cost stable flow of 9


### electricity is a vital national servic e that is 10


### now in jeopardy due to the proposal. Proposal 11



### threatens continued domestic coal utili z ation at 12


### present or historical levels in hope of any 13


### global climate change who not meaningfully or 14


### economically deliver on this objective. 15



### U.S. power plants are responsible for a 16


### relatively small percentage of global greenhouse 17


### gas emissions. Around 4 percent. 18


### The proposal will reduce global 19


### greenhouse gas emissions by less than one percent 20


### at a cost projected by the Agency of $4.2 to $8.8 21


### billion per year. 22

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### Reducing coal utilization for power 1


### generation will result in rising electricity 2


### prices and reduce power reliability for American 3



### consumers. EPA estimates that the rule will 4


### increase electricity prices between six and seven 5


### percent nationally in 2012. That increase 6


### matched substantially higher increases in 7


### individual states, including many whose current 8


### low electricity rates are possible thanks to 9



### coal. 10



### Rate increases will fall 11


### disproportionately on the least advantaged 12


### economically of our society, who will be forced 13


### to pay a portion more of their income for 14


### electricity. This increase will also place a 15


### significant burden on U.S. businesses for which 16


### affordable energy provides critical operating 17


### advantage and competitive global markets, 18


### particularly for goods and services from sectors 19


### in which energy is a major cost. 20


### Lastly the prices of all goods and 21


### services will increase, further harming more 22

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### consumers. Power supply in the U.S. is reliable 1


### because of adequate nonintermittent base load 2


### generating capa city. The primary fuel power in 3



### this (indiscernible)**20:56 is coal. It is 4


### sourced by U.S. power generators predominantly 5


### from domestic supply sources which have limited 6


### alternative domestic and foreign markets. 7


### At most coal fired EGUs stockpiles are 8



### mai ntained to act as a buffer against 9


### transportation related delays. EPA proposes in 10


### its regulation at the expense of coal fire 11


### generation to increase the share of electricity 12


### generated from natural gas, which is a variety of 13



### alternative markets outside the power generation 14



### sector, whether home and abroad. 15



### These markets include residential, 16



### commercial, and industrial space heating, 17


### industrial applications such as 18


### (indiscernible)**21:32 and exportable fuel in the 19



### form of liquefied natural gas. 20



### Unlike coal, nat ural gas is delivered to 21


### power plants via pipeline systems on a just in 22

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### time basis. As witnessed during this last severe 1


### winter, deliverability on particularly cold days 2


### can be subject to pipeline capacity constraints. 3



### Under extreme circumstances in cert ain areas of 4


### the country it could lead to inadequate natural 5


### gas deliverability for residential, commercial, 6


### industrial, and power generation applications, 7


### resulting in the limitation or displacement of 8



### supply to one or more of these sectors. 9


### Having examin ed the proposed regulations 10


### price and reliability concerns it is worthwhile 11


### to scrutinize closely the permissibility and 12


### feasibility of what EPA interprets as 13


### constituting a best system of emission reduction. 14



### Arch believes that Section 111D provides 15



### EPA wi th nary authority to set emission standards 16


### based solely on emission reductions that can be 17


### achieved inside the fence line. As such, only 18


### the Co2 emissions reductions resulting from 19


### actions taken under building block one may 20


### lawfully be recognized. 21



### Buil ding blocks two to four, as proposed 22

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### by the Agency are outside the fence line and the 1


### Agency does not have the expansive statutory 2


### authority to recognize them as BESR. 3


### Even if permissible it is not at all 4



### clear that it is feasible for the states to meet 5



### t he proposed required emission reductions. Under 6


### building block one, EPA posits that a six percent 7


### improvement in heat rates is possible, with four 8


### percent coming from adopting, operating, and 9


### maintenance best practices. 10


### Another two percent improvement is to 11


### stem from equipment upgrades. In the case of the 12



### former EPA presumes that plant operators do not 13


### already run and maintain their facilities 14


### according to best practices so as to minimize 15


### unit power production costs. 16


### If they are already doing so the 17



### pot ential to achieve a four percent heat rate 18


### improvement may prove (indiscernible)**23:23. 19



### As for the former, the new source review 20


### process makes equipment upgrades a risky 21


### potentially litigious proposition for operators 22

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### and discourages them from undertaking them. 1



### Given these reasons, outside the fence 2


### line actions as detailed under building blocks 3



### two to four are necessary for states to comply 4


### with the proposed regulations. Each of the 5


### building blocks, however, is also fraught with 6


### uncertainty. 7


### Building blo ck two

-- oh, excuse me. For 8


### example, building block two, increased 9


### utilization of combined cycle natural gas power 10


### plants presupposes that pipeline infrastructure 11


### is adequate or can be built to enable plants to 12


### operate at 70 percent capacity factors. 13



### Bui lding block three, it seems that the 14


### existing fleet of nuclear plants, that there will 15


### be no additional unit retirements, regardless of 16



### market conditions potentially making it 17



### uneconomic for some units to run. 18



### As for renewables, EPA assumes their 19



### growth can occur despite their 20



### (indiscernible)**24:18 making it progressively 21



### harder to balance load and run base load plants 22

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### efficiently and (indiscernible)**24:23. 1


### Finally, for building block four, demand 2


### side energy efficiency, EPA outlines what is 3



### feasible assuming that all states implement the 4


### necessary policies to achieve an annualized 5


### savings rate of 1.5 percent. It is not clear 6



### that states will be able to achieve such 7


### reductions without constraints or even stalling 8


### economic growth. Thank you. 9



### MR. PAGE: Thank you both for your 10


### testimony today. We appreciate you coming here. 11


### And if you want to submit any written testimony 12


### to the folks outside, we'd be glad to accept that 13


### too. Appreciate it. 14


### And now our next speaker is Senator 15


### Manchin from West Virgini a. Thank you very much, 16



### sir. 17



### MR. MANCHIN: Thank you. Thank you so 18



### much, to Mr. Page, Mr. Solomon, Mr. Sherry, I 19


### thank you all for this. 20


### I appreciate the chance to discuss today 21


### an issue vital to the past, present, and future, 22

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### not only my state, our na tion, and the world. 1



### On June 3rd President Obama and the EPA 2


### released this proposed rule to control carbon 3


### dioxide emissions from existing fossil fuel power 4


### plants. As I've stressed throughout this 5


### process, our nation needs to strike the right 6



### balance bet ween energy needs and the global 7


### environmental concerns. And I am very concerned 8



### that the EPA's new carbon emissions rule does not 9


### adequately strike that balance. 10


### As we have conversations about creating 11


### our future energy policies, we often overlook the 12



### hu man impact and the citizens who depend on 13


### reliable affordable energy every day. We need to 14


### keep in mind how expensive electricity costs 15



### already area, and all those who bear the brunt of 16



### the government's decisions

. 17



### Think about the families who are 18


### struggli ng to pay their bills every month, our 19


### seniors who spend more time in their homes than 20


### most, but who cannot afford excessive heating or 21


### cooling bills, and our businesses that rely more 22

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### than ever before on electric power to boot their 1


### computers, charge thei r technology and power the 2


### equipment they need to be successful. 3


### Think about the economic calamity we 4


### face. Not just across America, but around the 5


### world, if the lights went out or became too 6



### costly to use. 7


### There's no question that global warming 8



### is rea l, and that 7 billion people have impacted 9



### the world's climate. There's also no doubt that 10


### fossil fuels will be part of our energy portfolio 11



### for years to come. Those who choose not to 12


### believe that are deniers. We have too many 13



### deniers on both sides. 14



### Th is debate is about affordability and 15


### reliability, not just desirability. Fossil fuel 16


### energy is vital to our nation's economy and 17


### security. Fossil fuels currently provide 68 18


### percent of our country's electric generation. 19


### The Administration's own energy in formation 20


### administration projects coal and gas will 21


### continue to provide almost 64 percent of our 22

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### power through 2030, and that coal will comprise 1



### 31 percent of that power. 2


### Fossil fuels, especially coal, are vital 3


### right now in keep electricity affordable. In 4


### West Virginia, for example, the average 5


### electricity price in March was 7.5 percent per 6


### kilowatt hour. That has increased quite a bit 7


### even since these figures came out in March. 8


### On the coast electricity prices are often 9


### above 15 cents per kilowatt hour , double. The 10


### importance of coal reliability was never clearer 11


### than during the polar vortex this past winter. 12



### Because of the weather natural gas supply was low 13


### and demand was very high, not only for 14


### electricity generation but also to heat the homes 15



### and p ower businesses. Gas supply actually 16



### declined compared to the year before because of 17


### transporting it. Prices skyrocketed as you all 18



### know. 19


### Coal, on the other hand, provided 92 20


### percent of the generation increase that was 21


### required to avoid the blackouts and the ensuing 22

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### tragedy. As one electric CEO said, we dodged a 1



### cannon ball, and coal was the reason why. 2



### The economic contributions of coal are 3



### also enormous. Coal is minded in 25 states and 4


### provides more than 760,000 good paying jobs. In 5



### addition to elect ricity coal is required for the 6


### production of steel, cement, paper, plastics, 7


### water purification, and electronics. And coal 8


### isn't going away around the world any time soon. 9


### By 2040 it is estimated that China will 10


### get 62 percent of it is electricity from coal. 11


### India will get 56 percent, and developing 12


### countries in Southeast Asia will get up to 30 13



### percent. 14


### Construction of some 1,200, and I repeat, 15



### 1,200 new coal plants across the world is being 16


### planned in 59 countries. In two countries alone 17



### 363 are to b e built in China, 455 in India. The 18



### world consumes more than 8 billion tons of coal 19


### per year. And as we've done time and time again 20


### with products used around the world, the U.S. 21


### must lead the way in development of better and 22

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### cleaner technologies. 1



### We us e less than 1 billion tons in 2


### America. So, you can see the majority of the 3


### coal being consumed in the world is in other 4



### parts of the world. 5


### We won't make progress on climate change 6


### any other way. Many know that traditional 7



### pollutants, sulfur , nitrogen, mercury, and 8


### particulates have all been cut from coal 9


### emissions by 80 percent or more. What is less 10


### known is that utilities and their p roviders have 11


### already reduced carbon emissions by 23 percent 12



### compared to the 2005 levels. Twenty

- three 13



### percent compare d to 2005 levels. 14


### A couple of things the President has said 15


### have encouraged me. Recently the president 16



### stated that we need new technology to break the 17


### old rules. He also said that opposition to this 18



### rule reflected a lack of faith in American 19



### business a nd American ingenuity . And at West 20


### Point he said American influence is always 21



### stronger when we lead by example. 22

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### Here's a great example. The coal fleets 1



### of China, India, and Australia are much newer 2



### than ours; much newer than ours. But their 3



### average ther mal efficiency is not better than 4



### ours. It's actually worse. 5


### U.S. technology will be the answer, as it 6


### always has been. We can make the President's 7


### statements come true with policies that boost 8


### public private sector coordination we will finish 9



### the firs t carbon caption storage plants and 10


### develop the second generation. When that happens 11



### we will be able to use fossil fuels while 12


### producing almost no emissions. 13


### Research and development in coal 14


### technologies have provided great value to tax 15



### payers. A retur n of $13 for every $1 of federal 16


### funding. Our efforts will require the kind of 17



### commitment the President talked about. I've 18



### taken several recent actions to address the 19


### future of coal in our country. Some of these 20



### have already been successful. 21



### The admin istration agreed to a request to 22

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### extend the comment period for the existing source 1


### rule to 120 days, and I'm very appreciative. DOE 2


### lowered its application fees for loan guarantees 3


### to build advance fossil fuel projects. Much much 4



### more needs to be done. I hope the Administration 5


### will join me in these efforts. 6



### For example, the Department of Energy 7


### currently has $8 billion, $8 billion in loan 8


### guarantees available for advanced fossil 9


### projects. Now these guarantees were authorized 10


### in 2005. So I'm saying the y must now immediately 11


### go to the plant project so that we can lead the 12


### world in developing the cleaner technology that's 13


### going to be needed. 14


### Similarly the DOE has had $1.7 billion 15



### available since the 2009 for the advanced fossil 16



### fuel grants. These funds m ust also be made 17


### available immediately. We need to remove current 18


### rules that prohibit advanced fossil fuel programs 19


### from receiving federal grants and loan 20


### guarantees, at the same time, and remove 21


### regulatory impediments that delay or discourage 22

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### efficiency projects. 1


### We must ensure DOE uses its statutory 2


### authority to make sure that EPA rules don't 3


### endanger grid reliability. We must provide tax 4


### incentives for efficiency upgrades at existing 5



### plants. Carbon capture and storage or CCS as we 6



### know it, and use of Co2 for commercial purposes. 7


### Finally, we need to recognize that Russia 8



### is proceeding to cut of natural gas shipments to 9


### Ukraine. America needs to help Ukraine. And I 10


### can think of no better way than using our clean 11


### coal technology to advance their energy security 12


### with the great amounts of reserves they have. 13


### The XM Bank can help provide that funding. 14


### If we get these rules wrong and miss the 15


### opportunities before us, we'll compromise 16


### reliability and lose the low price energy needed 17



### to grow our economy. W e won't deploy 18


### technologies that will enable us to use coal 19


### cleaner and in the future. Not just in America, 20



### but all over the world. American ingenuity 21


### should be harnessed right now, not restrained, to 22

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### ensure our future at home and to be a leader for 1



### the world. 2


### As I continue to work with my colleagues 3


### to reduce our nation's carbon emissions, job 4


### creation, energy production, and our economic 5


### future will remain our top priorities. Our 6



### government needs to work as an ally , not an 7


### adversary when it comes to ou r nation's energy 8


### policies. 9


### I stand ready to work with this 10


### Administration to come up with common sense 11


### solution to develop smarter regulations and 12


### strike the balance between a prosperous economy 13



### and a cleaner environment. The time to act, 14



### gentlemen, is now. Thank you so much. 15



### MR. PAGE: Thank you very much, Senator 16



### Manchin. 17



### Let's see, Tom Burack, Commissioner Tom 18


### Burack and Craig Segall. 19



### MR. BURACK: Good afternoon, gentlemen. 20


### My name is Tom Burack. I serve as Commissioner 21


### of the New Hampshire De partment of Environmental 22

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### Services. 1



### Burack is spelled, B as in Boston, U

- R

- A

2



### C

- K. 3



### And I want to thank you for the 4


### opportunity to present oral comments on behalf of 5



### the New Hampshire Department of Environmental 6


### Services, in response to EPA's proposed cl ean 7


### power plan to cut carbon emissions from existing 8



### power plants. 9


### We appreciate the EPA's comprehensive 10



### efforts to reach out to states and to our other 11


### stakeholders, and we welcome this proposal. 12


### New Hampshire has demonstrated and will 13



### continue to demonst rate leadership in this arena. 14


### In 2002 we enacted the New Hampshire Clean Power 15


### Act, first in the nation legislation that 16


### addressed Co2 emissions from power plants. 17


### In 2008 New Hampshire enacted legislation 18


### that authorized the state's parti ci pation in t he 19


### Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, otherwise 20


### known as RGGI. And in 2009, New Hampshire, along 21


### with nine other RGGI states began implementing 22

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### the program. 1


### One of the original purposes of the RGGI 2


### program was to demonstrate the viability of a 3



### flexible market

- based regional cap on emissions 4


### as the basis for a potential federal program. 5


### Ours states collectively represent the world's 6


### seventh largest economy, and our region's economy 7


### has benefitted significantly from the investments 8



### of RGGI allowance reven ues, at the same time that 9


### they have helped to lower regional emissions. 10


### With respect to New Hampshire's plan for 11


### compliance with EPA's proposal, first and 12


### foremost our state requests that EPA recognize 13


### and accommodate our states and the RGGI regions' 14



### earl y leadership by providing the greatest 15


### available flexibility to the states in complying 16


### with the proposed Section 111D guidelines by 17


### continuing to parti ci pate in RGGI. 18


### Not only have regional Co2 emissions 19



### already been reduced by more than 40 percent from 20



### 2 005 levels, but New Hampshire Co2 emissions have 21


### been reduced by over 48 percent. RGGI will 22

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### achieve an additional 14 percent reduction from 1


### its 2014 cap of 91 million tons by the year 2020. 2



### Also new sources are covered under the 3


### RGGI cap which may represe nt significant 4



### additional reductions. DES believes that a 5


### reliable and effective method for developing 6



### mass

- based emission targets is critical to 7


### helping states take advantage of the lowest cost 8


### carbon reduction options under EPA's proposal, 9


### thereby avoid ing duplicative regulation. 10



### DES further believes that a mass

- based 11


### program like RGGI will be one of the most 12


### effective ways to transparently track and verify 13


### emissions reductions and compliance. 14


### We at DES are still reviewing and 15


### analyzing many details of EPA's proposal, 16


### including the proposed rate base, 2030 goal of 17


### 486 tons per megawatt hour for New Hampshire, and 18


### the applicability of the four building blocks. 19


### In general we believe that the required 20


### EPA state rate goals should be equitably 21



### distributed a mongst the states and should not 22

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### disadvantage states that have been early movers 1


### in reducing their Co2 emissions from power 2



### plants. 3


### DES plans to include additional feedback 4



### on proposed rate targets and other aspects of 5


### EPA's proposal in comments that we will submit 6


### before the close of the 120 day comment period. 7


### Having said that there are some broad 8



### issues related to the formulation of the best 9


### system of emission reductions, BSER as 10



### established under Section 111D, that I would like 11


### to point out related to renewable energy and 12



### nuclear energy. 13


### First, with respect to nuclear energy DES 14


### applauds EPA for its intent to recognize and 15



### incent non

- emitting renewable generation as one 16


### of the building blocks in its approach to 17


### determining BSER. However, based on DES' s 18


### analysis to date, we do not believe that EPA's 19


### primary proposal that involves averaging of state 20


### renewable portfolio standard goals across regions 21



### is workable. 22

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### DES believes that EPA's alternative 1



### approach may be more workable, and we look 2



### forward to en gaging with EPA to ensure the 3


### effectiveness of this building block under an 4



### alternative formulation. 5


### With respect to nuclear energy, DES 6


### stresses the importance of setting standards that 7


### preserve nuclear and other options for fuel 8


### diversity and maintain g rid reliability. 9



### However, we are unclear as to what actions our 10


### state might be expected to undertake in response 11


### to the proposed six percent allowance for nuclear 12


### plants considered to be at risk nationally. 13


### Furthermore, even the nuclear plants that remai n 14


### operating, preserve fuel diversity and maintain 15


### grid reliability and are not emitting. 16


### In summary DES applauds EPA's recognition 17


### of regional cost effective market based programs 18



### like RGGI, which have demonstrated that they can 19


### help states realize environ mental and economic 20


### goals, while maintaining electricity grid 21


### reliability. 22

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### And again DES supports the flexibility 1


### provided by the current proposal which signals 2



### that a multistate mass

- based program such as RGGI 3


### can serve as the best system of emissions 4



### red uctions. 5


### Again, thank you very much for the 6


### opportunity to be with you here today. 7


### MR. PAGE: Thank you, Commissioner. 8



### MR. SEGALL: Hello. Thank you all for 9


### being here for these 26 marathon hours of 10


### hearings. My name is Craig Segall. That's S

- E

11



### G

- A

- L

- L. And I am Senior Staff Council to the 12



### California Air Resources Board, or ARB. 13


### California, with the world's eighth 14


### largest economy, steadily falling levels of 15


### carbon pollution, and low electricity bills is 16


### proof positive that the need to address climat e 17


### change does not conflict with the need for a 18


### strong and robust economy. Indeed, our climate 19


### programs have also delivered major reductions in 20


### criteria pollutants and air toxics have also 21


### declined. So we are seeing cumulatively both 22

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### public health benefit s, economic growth, and 1


### climate progress through these programs. 2


### Many of us believe that some of 3


### California's cost effective and economy friendly 4


### activities thus far may be used as models for 5


### other states in their compliance strategies. 6



### ARB strongly suppor ts EPA's efforts to 7


### help secure these benefits nationally through its 8



### clean power plan. 9



### Section 111D of the Clean Air Act, the 10


### basis for the plan, establishes a strong 11


### partnership between national and state 12


### governments to cut pollution from existing power 13


### plants. By charging EPA with setting state by 14


### state emissions targets, reflecting the best 15


### system of emission reduction and the sta t es 16


### themselves planning for these targets, the act is 17



### an invitation for states to innovate. 18


### ARB in this regard strongly supp orts 19


### options in the proposal which provide for 20


### substantial state flexibility and plan design and 21


### enforceability. 22

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### In particular we very strongly urge EPA 1



### to finalize an enforceable state commitment 2


### option for state plans under which states 3



### themselves woul d take responsibility under EPA 4


### oversight for achieving reductions from covered 5



### facilities. 6


### Under this approach states will 7


### demonstrate through careful model and analysis 8



### that emissions from covered facilities will 9



### decline target levels by the EPA deadli ne as a 10


### result of the pollution control programs the 11



### state and implements and plans to implement. 12



### The state's commitment to meet that 13


### target potentially along with more focused 14


### commitments to implement certain programs by 15


### particular dates are Federally enf orceable, but 16


### the fine details of underlying programs who 17


### support them are not under this approach, 18


### striking an appropriate balance between the 19


### Federal goals and state regulatory flexibility, 20


### especially in the energy sector. Regular state 21


### reporting helps keep the emission trajectory on 22

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### course. 1


### This approach gives states structured 2


### room to innovate while ensuring that the targets 3



### are met. States across the country have a long 4


### history of fruitful innovation in energy sector 5


### and pollution control programs, w hich this will 6



### help support. 7



### California, for instance, has saved its 8



### citizens billions of dollars on their bills as it 9


### has pursued energy efficiency, is working to 10


### rapidly develop renewable and energy storage 11



### resources. 12


### Our cap and trade program similarly is 13


### delivering major pollution reductions and 14


### continue to look for ways expand this program to 15


### net even greater benefits. We want to make sure, 16



### however, that we and states across the country 17


### have the discretion to continue and improve these 18



### programs and d evelop new ones that will work in 19


### harmony with the federal plan without undue 20


### procedure and enforceability requirements. 21


### The enforceable commitment approach gives 22

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### us that room by locking in targets for states to 1


### meet, by avoiding potentially duplicative fe deral 2


### and enforcement processes for particular energy 3


### program designs and fine plan details which might 4



### otherwise make it difficult to continue to to 5


### adjust state energy and climate programs as 6


### circumstances shift over the coming years. 7



### While EPA can and s hould carefully 8


### scrutinize state programs before it approves the 9


### commitments they underwrite, and should explore 10


### contingency measures that can keep states on 11


### track, maintaining the state control over the 12


### energy programs themselves will keep the 13


### cooperative system nimble and ready to respond to 14



### new challenges. 15


### State commitments to a declining 16


### pollutant trajectory, coupled with room for 17



### course correct ion have been successful in 18


### controlling other criteria pollutants in the 19


### past. Texas, New York, and Califor nia at a 20



### minimum have developed commitment base state 21


### implementation plans for criteria pollutants , and 22

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### those plans have been upheld by the courts and 1



### the appellate courts, I should add. 2


### Thus, we have strong reasons for thinking 3


### that this approach or a m odification of it will 4


### work here. And indeed, we think likely central 5


### to successfully implementing this program. 6



### Enforceable commitments with their built

7


### in flexibility and ability to respond if 8


### unexpected are particularly appropriate as we 9


### jointly emba rk on national carbon control for 10


### power plants for the first time. 11


### So, in sum, we look forward to exploring 12


### these issues further with you. ARB and EPA have 13


### had a long and fruitful partnership, not the 14


### least through exceptional outreach efforts 15



### through a ll of May and throughout development of 16


### this proposal. We are confident that the final 17


### Clean Power Plan balancing appropriately between 18


### Federal oversight and state innovation will help 19


### galvanize states across the country to cut carbon 20


### pollution and help t heir citizens prosper. 21



### Thank you for your work to date, your 22

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### patience over these weeks, and we look forward 1


### very much to many more conversations in months 2



### and years to come. Thanks. 3



### MR. PAGE: Thank you, gentlemen, for your 4


### testimony today. We appreciate it. 5


### Our next speakers are Lucas Niewenhuis 6


### and Erica Mitrano. Lucas, I think you'll need to 7



### spell your name. Both of you need to spell your 8



### name. 9


### MR. NIEWENHUIS: Good job pronouncing it, 10



### though. 11



### MR. PAGE: Okay. Thanks. 12



### MR. NIEWENHUIS: Niewenhuis, N

- I

- E

- W

- E

- N

13



### H

- U

- I

- S. 14


### As a young person in America today I 15


### realize that I am lucky to live in a country 16


### generally free from choking smog in our cities, 17


### toxic sludge in our rivers, and acid in our rain. 18



### Those were for the most part, the 19


### environmental problem s of the 20th Century. They 20


### have been kept that way, made a thing of the past 21


### because of wildly successful and efficient 22

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### policies from the EPA. 1


### Unfortunately these problems continue in 2


### some ways. For example, emissions from coal 3


### fired power plants in Eas tern Michigan, where I'm 4


### from, cost communities millions each year in 5


### harmed public health. And even more unfortunate, 6


### climate change has emerged as the greatest 7



### environmental c hallenge of the 21st Century, and 8



### so far not much has been done to address it. 9


### Just as smog, toxic waste, and acid rain plagued 10


### us in the 20th Century, 21st Century climate 11


### change promises new threats to our health and our 12



### economy. 13


### Here are just a few examples. The 14



### deadliest heat waves in world history have 15



### occurred in the last 15 years. Coinciding with 16



### the 10 warmest years on record. The 2003 17


### European and 2010 Russian heat waves have 18


### combined death tolls of over 100,000 people. It 19


### is only a matter of time before a similar heat 20


### wave hits the United States. In my lifetime we 21



### w ill suffer through this, likely as a result of 22

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### astronomical carbon pollution. 1


### Some of the deepest droughts in U.S. 2


### history have also occurred in the last 15 years. 3


### California is currently in its third year of 4


### record breaking drought, straining groundwater 5



### resources, resources that we once thought were 6



### abundant. 7


### Climate change will ensure that droughts 8



### like these become the new normal throughout the 9


### United States and the world. More heat, drought, 10



### wild fires, and floods could combine to wreck 11



### havoc on ou r food supply and food supplies, and 12


### in turn the world economy. 13



### These and other concerns convince me that 14


### strong global action is needed on climate change. 15


### But global agreement action has been hard to come 16


### by to say the least. The reality is that every 17


### nation in the world by necessity looks up to the 18



### United States as a leader, and if the United 19


### States is not leading, then they will not follow. 20



### So we have to ask ourselves these 21


### questions; if action on climate change doesn't 22

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### start here in the United State s, then where will 1


### it start? Will we allow foreign nations to take 2


### environmental leadership in the 21st Century? I 3



### think it would be a shame. 4


### And if action on climate change doesn’t 5



### start now, in 2014, then when will it start? 6



### Will we wait for more of the deadliest heat waves 7


### in world history? Will we wait until a near 8


### permanent drought grips half the nation? Will we 9


### wait for more record setting super storms and 10



### wild fires to drown and scorch our land? 11


### I don't know about you, but I think 12



### that's too l ate. We cannot continue to burn 13



### fossil fuels unabated. We can continue to burn 14



### them but abatement, emissions control needs to 15



### start now, and here in the United States. 16



### With the Clean Power Plan United States 17


### will take a step in the right direction. As a 18


### citizen I approve the message it sends to the 19


### rest of the world. The United States is finally 20


### ready to take action on climate change. With 21



### continued action in the future we will be able to 22

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### carry our environmental leadership from the 20th 1


### Century into th e 21st. I hope that the EPA 2


### strengthens this plan to make our power as clean 3


### and healthy as possible, and continues its work 4



### with more climate action in the near future. 5



### Thank you. 6


### MR. PAGE: Thank you, sir. 7


### MS. MITRANO: Hello. My name is Erica 8



### Mitrano

-- excuse me. Can you hear me? Okay. 9



### MR. PAGE: Pull it a little bit closer. 10


### MS. MITRANO: All right. My name is 11


### Erica Mitrano. I'm a nursing student. I live in 12


### Arlington, Virginia, and

-- 13


### MR. PAGE: Erica, how do you spell your 14



### last name? I'm sorr y. 15



### MS. MITRANO: M

- I

- T

- R

- A

- N

- O. 16



### MR. PAGE: Okay. 17



### MS. MITRANO: And it's Erica with a C. 18



### MR. PAGE: Okay. Very good. Thank you. 19



### MS. MITRANO: Okay. Thanks. 20



### I had a statement that actually fell out 21


### of my pocket on the way here, so I'm winging it a 22

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### little bit. But I've got a few notes. 1


### I just wanted to say that climate change 2


### is probably the biggest challenge that human 3


### civilization has ever faced, and it endangers our 4


### coastal cities, literally billions of lives, 5


### probably, once you look at it. And it impe rils 6


### our entire way of life. 7


### I've heard, while sitting here, people 8


### saying that taking action is too expensive or 9


### that the plan is too stringent. But that kind of 10


### thinking is the most dangerous kind of short term 11


### thinking. 12



### People who say that the cost of action is 13


### too high have failed to confront the unthinkable 14



### human and economic costs we will incur or 15


### struggle to endure if we don't take action. 16



### In 2008, before he took office, Barack 17


### Obama promised a new beginning in combating 18


### climate change. It has taken more than six 19


### years, but it seems like his administration is 20


### finally taking action to keep that promise to the 21


### American people. 22

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### This plan is nowhere near enough but it's 1


### a great start. And I think that prudence demands 2


### that it be adopted as soon as possible. Thank 3



### you. 4



### MR. PAGE: Thank you very much. I 5


### appreciate you both coming today. 6


### All right. Our next speakers are Brian 7



### Banks and Brenna Muller. 8



### Mr. Banks, when you're ready. 9



### MR. BANKS: Thank you. Good afternoon. 10


### My name is Brian Banks, and my day job is working 11


### for the American Lung Association as a Director 12


### of Advocacy for the Healthy Air Campaign. I 13


### sincerely thank you for the opportunity to speak 14


### to you today in support of the Clean Carbon Plan. 15



### As you've heard, yesterday and today, the 16


### American Lung Association strongly supports EPA's 17


### commonsense commitment to reducing carbon 18


### pollution in order to protect public health of 19


### all people in our country. 20


### During EPA testimony we have listened to 21


### several witnesses that have intelligent and w ell 22

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### researched arguments on the importance of this 1



### rule. And the many reason we believe EPA has 2


### made the right decision in proposing the Clean 3



### Carbon Plan. 4


### The science is clear and supports the 5



### need for the Clean Carbon Plan. After all, the 6



### plan is for a ll people. And for that matter, the 7


### wellbeing of every person in this room, we all 8


### breath, and in order to live we require air. And 9


### we have the right to good quality clean air. 10


### Clean air supports good health, which we 11


### cannot argue against. The fact is , a person 12


### living a healthy life will have a better 13


### opportunity to remain productive in our society. 14


### Our air quality has improved due to the Clean Air 15


### Act, however despite progress there is still a 16


### need for improvement. Those who want to block 17



### weaken, or delay this rule, are working against 18



### the health of America's children, senior 19


### citizens, our neighbors, and our friends. 20


### Blocking clean air protections hurt those 21


### suffering from breathing disorders such as 22

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### asthma, bronchitis, COPD, just to name a few. 1



### Toda y I would like to take a step away 2


### from the statistics we have heard and speak to 3


### you not only as an employee of the American Lung 4


### Association, but as the father of a 14 year old 5


### boy. We both enjoy spending time outdoors, 6


### fishing, crabbing, sailing, exerc ising , playing 7


### basketball, or just taking a leisurely stroll 8


### around the neighborhood. 9


### The thought of knowing that the lungs of 10


### my son may have been harmed because we like 11


### spending time outdoors all over our state of 12


### Maryland is not only scary, it is not fair to him 13


### or I. All people are breathing in the pollution 14


### from power plants. And the pollution is 15


### affecting the health of our communities across 16


### the United States. Cleaning up carbon pollution 17


### can help with the ozone smog and practical 18


### pollution we ar e all breathing deep into our 19



### lungs. 20


### I enjoy the outdoors for all it has to 21


### offer. But now it's offering me the chance to 22

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### poison myself by breathing in nitrogen oxides, 1



### sulfur dioxide, exposing my lungs to dangerous 2


### ozone levels, and eating fish contamina ted with 3



### mercury. 4


### I am in overall good health. Despite my 5


### health I am at risk because I live in a county 6


### that received a poor air grade. My son is at 7



### risk because of the same reason, and the children 8


### around the country who will one day lead us, are 9



### at ri sk. 10



### I speak for everyone when I say we demand 11


### the right to breath good quality air. I ask, did 12


### you know that more than half of our country live 13


### in a county with poor air quality? I not only 14


### know this as fact, I live in a county that the 15


### American Lung As sociation State of the Air gives 16


### a grade of F for high ozone days, and a C for 17


### high particle pollution. 18



### Do I move away from my home? The same 19


### goes, you can run but you cannot hide. And based 20



### on the scientific facts this holds true without 21



### any doubt. It would be difficult to remove 22

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### myself and family from a poor air quality area. 1


### Quite frankly it scares me that our country is 2


### being dominated by pollutants that cause 3


### difficult breathing, asthma attacks, and 4


### premature death. And that climate change is 5



### maki ng it harder to clean up pollution. 6


### However, there is hope in the Clean 7


### Carbon Plan. The plan is well overdue, and 8


### though it can be improved, it has the formula to 9


### lead us all in the place where we will not be

-- 10



### I'm sorry, excuse me. Where there would n ot be a 11


### second thought about breathing. 12


### Thank you for the opportunity to present 13


### my testimony. I am looking forward to the final 14



### rule. 15



### MR. PAGE: Thank you, Mr. Banks. 16


### MS. MULLER: Hi. Thank you. Right now 17


### I'll be reading the testimony of my colleague
, 18


### Terry McGuire who is not able to be here today. 19



### MR. PAGE: Okay. 20



### MS. MULLER: And his

-- 21


### MR. PAGE: And your last name is spelled? 22

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### MS. MULLER: My last name is spelled, 1



### Muller, M

- U

- L

- L

- E

- R. 2



### MR. PAGE: Very good. 3


### MS. MULLER: His name is Terry McGuire. 4


### Good morning EPA leaders and staff. My 5


### name is Terry McGuire and I am a Federal Policy 6


### Representative with the Sierra Club here in 7


### Washington, D.C. I'm here today to strongly 8


### support EPA's rule to curb dangerous industrial 9


### carbon pollution from existing p ower plants. 10


### I would like to dedicate my testimony to 11


### my Godson, Jude Heshenwiles (phonetic) who is a 12


### wiggly, crawling, messy, and beautiful 15 month 13


### old. Jude was born last May on the same medical 14



### campus where President Obama announced these 15



### carbon pollu tion standards. Surrounded by 16


### children afflicted with asthma our president 17


### appropriately framed action on climate as a 18


### public health issue. I couldn't agree more with 19



### him. 20



### For decades corporate polluters have been 21


### allowed to dump unlimited amounts of car bon 22

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### dioxide pollution into our air. The result has 1


### been an ever warming climate that has resulted in 2



### dangerous super storms , fires, droughts, and more 3



### asthma attacks because of hotter weather and more 4



### bad ozone days. 5


### I don't know if Jude will develop asth ma, 6


### but I do know his lungs are still forming. As 7


### his bronchial cavities are developing tubes and 8


### blood vessels and lung walls and cells coming 9


### together and growing I know that he must contend 10



### with the air that's dirtier than it should be. 11



### The American L ung Association in their 12


### yearly report card gave the District of Columbia 13



### an F for our overall ozone levels. 14



### Elevated ozone levels, or smog, 15



### contribute to asthma attacks and can act as a 16


### sunburn on his tiny lungs. Climate scientists 17



### tell us that if left unchecked unlimited carbon 18


### pollution emissions will lead to more very hot 19


### days which consequently would lead to more bad 20


### ozone days and more asthma attacks for kids like 21



### Jude. 22

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### Across the District there are more than 1



### 15,000 children and more than 50,000 adu lts with 2


### asthma. When big corporate polluters and money 3


### lobbyists speak darkly about massive job losses 4


### and economic collapse, claims that to be clear 5



### are not rooted in fact and we know to be 6


### overblown, I wonder if they think about the 7



### thousands of people for whom the very act of 8


### breathing is a challenge. 9


### Have they ever seen a child in the 10


### emergency room, struggling, gasping for air or 11


### for life? Have they ever been bedside by a son 12


### or a daughter that has gone into a coma after a 13



### massive asthma attack? 14



### I witnessed my first asthma attack 15


### approximately 25 years ago. I was shaken out of 16


### sleep in the middle of the night by my little 17


### brother who had come by my bedside to tell me 18



### that he couldn't breathe , asking that I get mom 19



### and dad. 20



### I remember mom, wide

- e yed with panic, 21


### frantically holding him over the edge of the tub 22

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### and cutting on a hot shower, hoping that the 1


### steam might help open his lungs while dad threw 2



### on clothes and prepared to rush them off to the 3



### emergency room. Thankfully my brother was okay 4



### an d even more thankfully he outgrew his childhood 5


### asthma. But it was terrifying and sadly far too 6


### many children don't outgrow their asthma and 7


### experience scenarios like this every single day. 8



### So I applaud your efforts and encourage 9


### you to finalize a strong, just rule that makes 10


### significant reductions in our industrial carbon 11


### pollution. 12


### My hope is that as Jude grows up he'll 13


### learn about climate change in much the same way I 14


### learned about acid rain. I hope that he learns 15


### and reads about it as a very real thre at, that we 16


### collectively as a society recognized and took 17


### action to reign in and consequently avoided the 18



### worst effects. 19


### I imagine he and many other in his 20


### generation will shake their heads and wonder what 21



### all the fuss was about. How could anyone have 22

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### sto od in the way they'll ask. Let's look 1



### forward. Let's act. Let's make sure that in the 2


### future as the world deals with the global climate 3


### change we've already set in motion that we can 4


### look our grandchildren in the eyes and tell them 5



### that we stood up to a ct on climate and that had 6



### we

-- and that it could not have been a lot 7



### worse. 8


### Please know that as you move forward, if 9


### you finalize and implement a strong and just and 10


### equitable rule that protects communities and 11


### workers, that the Sierra Club will have yo ur 12



### back. We stand ready to put our muscle against 13



### those that would sell our air and water for broad 14


### profits and executive salaries. 15



### Thank you for the chance to speak today 16


### and for your ongoing work to hold polluters 17



### accountable. 18



### MR. PAGE: Thank you all for your 19


### testimony today. We appreciate it. 20


### Our next speakers are Emily Lande and Jim 21


### Dougherty. Emily, if you'll spell your last 22

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### name

-- 1



### MS. LANDE: Sure. 2



### MR. PAGE:

-- and begin when you're 3



### ready. 4



### MS. LANDE: It was excellent 5


### pronunciation. I'm i mpressed. It's Lande, L

- A

6



### N

- D

- E. 7


### Thank you for the opportunity to testify 8


### today. My name is Emily Lande and I work for the 9



### National Wildlife Federation as an advocate for 10


### public lands conservation. I am not a scientist 11


### and I am not an expert on air qu ality 12


### regulations, but lucky for you my own personal 13


### environmental hero, my dad, Greg Lande, is. 14


### I am proud to read his testimony, e

15


### mailed all the way from Portland, Oregon at this 16


### hearing today. I won't do the voice. 17



### I worked for the Oregon Department of 18


### Environmental Quality for just over 34 years. 19



### Part of that time I spent doing ambient air 20


### quality monitoring, and most of that time I was 21


### an air quality planner, focused primarily on 22

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### hazardous air pollutants. 1


### In both capacities I saw firsthand how 2



### E PA standards led directly to making many 3


### people's health and lives better. Here are a few 4



### of my thoughts

. 5



### In the late 1970s Oregon was focused on 6


### attaining the National Ambient Air Quality 7


### Standards for ozone and particulate matter. 8



### Although there had be en state and local 9


### regulations it was the Federal standards that 10


### really made things happen. 11


### Primary and applied research led to an 12


### understanding of the distribution of these 13


### pollutants, their sources, and the complex 14


### atmospheric interactions that led to th eir 15


### formation. Oregon and the local air agencies 16


### then crafted strategies with significant 17



### assistance from local citizens to reduce the 18


### primary sources as well as the precursor 19



### pollutants. 20



### Without the science we could not have 21


### convinced people that they n eeded to reduce their 22

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### driving and their home woodstove use. That is 1


### that we held the keys to our own wellbeing, an 2


### approach Oregonians could embrace. 3


### While these early strategies weren't 4



### perfect they improved air quality enormously. 5


### Over the years ambien t air standards and 6


### strategies have been revisited and updated. The 7


### key was that we started and that the air keeps 8


### getting better. 9


### Meanwhile EPA was developing, proposing, 10


### and adopting new source performance standards 11


### that sought to reduce emissions fro m key 12



### pollutant sources. 13


### Here EPA generally provided the expertise 14


### and leadership for creating regulations that 15


### state and local agencies could then implement and 16



### enforce. In some cases, though, states had 17


### familiarity and knowledge with certain source 18



### ty pes. Of course you know where I'm headed. 19


### Oregon led the way with the new source 20


### performance standards for residential wood 21


### heating. We knew a lot about wood stoves and had 22

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### an urgent need to do something about them. Last 1


### I heard Oregon is actively invol ved in the 2



### updates to these standards. 3


### I always felt that EPA and the Oregon air 4


### agencies had a good partnership, that we shared a 5


### common goal, and used common sense in achieving 6


### these goals with practical and effective 7


### regulations. I see no reason why th is won't 8



### continue. 9


### The adoption of the 1990 clean air 10


### amendments was a big deal for us in Oregon and me 11


### in particular. While I was only indirectly 12



### involved with developing, adopting, and 13


### implementing the Federal Title 5 Operating Permit 14


### Regulations , just about everyone in the air 15


### quality division played a part. 16


### On the other hand I was very involved 17



### with the National Emission Standards for 18


### hazardous air pollutants. These regulations 19


### broke new and complicated ground. To start with, 20


### it was hard to explain to people what made 21



### hazardous air pollutants different from other air 22

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### pollutants. Weren't all pollutants potentially a 1


### public health problem ? It was also hard to 2


### explain seemingly arbitrary standards. What does 3


### controlling emissions to a level equal to the 4


### average of the top 12 percent mean? Which 5



### businesses would that affect and how were these 6


### regulations going to protect people? 7


### It was a struggle from the beginning and 8


### I know that the struggle continues. But once 9


### again the air agencies at all levels, working 10


### with the regulated communities , and the pollution 11


### affected communities, accomplish good things. 12


### To my mind Federal standards are 13


### important for many reasons. They drive the 14



### science so the regulations do what is intended. 15


### They create an equitable regulatory environment 16


### so that one part of the country is not 17


### disadvantaged compared to another. And they 18


### protect people in one location from pollution 19


### coming from elsewhere. 20


### In my experience few regulations are 21


### perfect right out the gate and implementin g 22

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### agencies, often the state and local levels, will 1


### spot problems quickly so the regulations can be 2


### improved. The important thing is we must start 3


### doing something. 4


### Thank you again for giving me an 5


### opportunity to present these comments on behalf 6



### of my dad, and in extension, myself. It just 7


### goes to show that air really knows no boundaries, 8


### be they geographic or generational. 9


### Like my dad said, we need to start 10



### somewhere, and when it comes to cutting carbon 11


### pollution from power plants the Clean Power Plan 12



### is the start that we need. 13



### MR. PAGE: Thank you. 14



### MS. LANDE: Thank you. 15



### MR. PAGE: Mr. Dougherty. 16


### MR. DOUGHERTY: Hi. Jim Dougherty, D

- O

17



### U

- G

- H

- E

- R

- T

- Y. 18


### I'm a resident of Washington where I live 19


### four blocks away from a coal fired power plant, 20



### and if time permitted I would talk about life 21


### living near a coal fired power plant, but I have 22

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### a couple of other points to make. 1


### I'm now in my 11th year of service on the 2


### Sierra Club Board of Directors, but the testimony 3


### I'm about to give is my own. 4


### I have two points to make. You proposed 5



### plan doesn't do enough to reduce energy use. In 6



### fact that's true of most of the energy advocacy 7



### programs I see out there. There's talk about 8


### cleaning up dirty energy, we talk about building 9


### windmills and solar power, and we general ly give 10


### lip service to demand reduction. Your plan calls 11


### for 10.7 percent reduction by 2030. We could 12


### easily get twice that much in half the time. 13



### There is lots of low hanging fruit all 14


### around us, and I'll give you one example. When I 15



### biked over here ha lf an hour ago from my office I 16


### counted 14 street lights that were fully 17


### illuminated in the middle of the day. Two of 18


### them are right across the street. Thirteen of 19


### those are the infamous Washington Glob Lights, 20


### which even in the middle of the night are 21



### i ncredible wasteful. They extend all their light 22

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### up. 1



### But them burning during the day is really 2



### unconscionable and you'll see these everywhere 3


### once you pay attention. It's just unbelievable. 4



### There's so much more we could do. 5


### And just one more point abou t outdoor 6


### lighting. For every watt we can kill on outdoor 7


### lighting, it's much more valuable than energy 8



### conservation we can achieve indoors or elsewhere 9


### because we get the ancillary benefits of 10


### preserving the starry sky, adverse affects on 11



### wild life and w ild life habitat, and human health 12


### effects of light trespass into our homes. But 13


### these kind things could be dealt with in 18 14



### months, so I ask you to take that on. 15


### The second point I'd like to make is that 16


### I've been practicing environmental law in 17



### Washin gton for almost 40 years now and not 18


### surprisingly I spent some time working for EPA. 19



### I was there in the 70s, and in the 80s, and in 20


### the 90s. I finally became a branch chief in 21



### Office of Enforcement. Not that that makes me a 22

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### big frog in the pond, but hav ing been on the 1


### inside for several years and then having worked 2


### on the outside, mostly suing the agency, I've 3


### developed my own perspective on how they approach 4



### new regulatory programs, the Air Act, the Water 5



### Act, Hazardous Waste, and the rest. 6



### And generall y speaking the history has 7



### been when EPA takes on a new program like climate 8



### change here, they take baby steps. They adopt 9



### half myth. And so then they spend the next 10


### decades catching up, filling loopholes, adding 11



### enforcement mechanisms. 12


### And in part tha t's because of 13


### deficiencies in the organic legislation. We've 14


### had to amend the Air Act a couple of times and 15


### same with CERCLA. But it's been largely because 16


### EPA doesn't take these things on aggressively. 17



### And a great example of that would be the 18



### Ambient A ir Quality Standards. We've been 19


### ratcheting those down for 40 years and it's 20


### basically a simple question. How much air 21


### pollution affects human health? But we continue 22

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### to take baby steps towards that final goal. 1


### Well, when we're dealing with climate we 2



### c an't be that risk averse. We have to be bold 3


### because the nature of the challenge we face is 4



### far greater than any challenge EPA has ever faced 5



### before. 6


### This is not about American pollution, 7


### it's about global pollution. This is not about 8



### human health, whi ch is what most of our 9



### environmental laws are anchored in. It's about 10


### every aspect of the environment. It's about the 11


### matrix of life that everything on the planet 12



### depends on. 13


### So we're talking about the arctic ice 14


### sheets, we're talking about the coral r eefs, 15


### we're talking about amphibian

-- amphibians 16


### worldwide are down 35 percent. That's the kind 17


### of thing that's at stake in this rule. 18



### And so from that perspective my comment 19


### on your proposed rule is that it's only a half a 20



### loaf. There's a claim that it would reduce 21


### emissions by 30 percent by 2030. But as you 22

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### know, 12 or 14 percent of those emissions have 1


### already been obtained because of the choice of 2


### baseline. So we're really talking about 17 or 18 3



### percent reduction over the next 15 years or so. 4



### One percent a year doesn't cut it. It doesn't 5


### deal with the problem. 6


### What we need to do is reduce emissions by 7



### three percent or four percent a year for the next 8


### 10 or 15 years. And so I invite you to make it 9



### stronger. 10


### Failing that, I invite you not to 11



### compr omise. Don't pull your punches. Don’t sell 12


### out. You're going to be under a lot of pressure. 13



### I heard the guy testify from Peabody Coal 14


### yesterday. There's going to be a lot of that 15


### going on, there will be litigation, and I urge 16



### you to stand strong. The stakes of this 17


### challenge are higher than anything you've ever 18



### faced before. Thanks. 19



### MR. PAGE: Thank you. Thank you both for 20


### being here today; appreciate it. 21


### All right. Our next speakers are Sanaa 22

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### Sledge and Niasia Ellis. I'm going to ask each 1



### of you to spell your last name for the court 2


### reporter before you start, and also help me with 3


### the pronunciation, which I'm sure I didn't do 4



### very well at. 5



### MS. ELLIS: Hi. I'm Niasia Ellis, E

- L

- L

6



### I

- S. 7



### MR. PAGE: Okay. 8



### MS. ELLIS: I am Niasia Ellis. I am a 9



### risin g senior at Open High School in Richmond, 10


### Virginia. Earlier this year I attended EPA's 11


### listening session on carbon pollution. Standards 12



### -- I'm sorry. Excuse me. Carbon pollution 13


### standards for existing power plants. I'm back 14



### today to thank you for your proposal for the 15


### Clean Power Plan and ask that you finalize your 16



### proposal so that we can

-- sorry. And to ask 17



### that you finale your proposal so that it can 18


### start protecting the health of kids with asthma. 19


### I hold the title of Ms. Teen Essence. My 20



### pageant platform is asthma awareness. You can L

21



### I

- V

- E with asthma. Live is an acronym for lead, 22

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### inspire, be victorious, and empower. 1


### I was diagnosed with asthma at age four, 2


### and it took me many years to be able to get it 3


### under control. I used to end up in the hospital 4


### every single year and even playing outside at 5



### recess would make me sick. 6



### Now that I've learned to manage my asthma 7


### I want to teach others the same. I'm very active 8


### in my community because too many people in 9



### Richmond suffer from asthma and have trouble 10


### controlling it. In fact the National Asthma and 11


### Allergy Foundation named Richmond the Asthma 12


### Capitol of the Country this year, as well as 2010 13



### and 2011. 14


### That means that it's the toughest place 15



### in America for someone like me to live. There's 16



### a l ot we can do to help kids control their 17


### condition. I teach groups of kids how to learn 18



### to control their asthma and avoid

-- to control 19


### their triggers and avoid them. 20



### I spoke at an event the Asthma Lung 21



### Association held in Richmond where we raised 22

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### funds an d awareness of lung disease by climbing 1


### the stairs of the downtown office buildings. 2


### I've worked with the Virginia Asthma Coalition to 3


### encourage kids and parents to make a plan so that 4



### their child's school and nurse knows what 5


### medicine to give and when to give it. 6


### I've even taught groups without asthma to 7



### understand what it's like to have asthma attacks 8


### by having them breath through coffee stirrers. 9


### This is a cause that I am truly 10


### passionate about and so devoted. I even won two 11


### awards this year for my volunteer work with 12


### asthma. This problem is that

-- this problem is, 13


### there are all a lot of personal actions that we 14


### can take to manage our condition, but there are 15


### some things that are outside of our control. 16


### Richmond's poor air quality is one thing 17



### tha t I cannot change on my own. Virginia and the 18


### nation has done a good job in reducing the ozone 19


### pollution over the past several years. 20


### Unfortunately scientists predict that the climate 21


### change will undo a lot of the progress we've 22

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### made. More carbon pollut ion leads to higher 1



### temperatures , and that means more dangerous smog 2


### that keeps kids with asthma indoors. 3


### I am lucky to have the opportunity to 4



### travel here and speak before you to represent the 5


### City of Richmond's 3,576 kids with asthma. I'm 6


### asking you to please, put our health first, and 7


### the health of other people with asthma across 8


### Virginia. Please finalize the Clean Power Plan 9


### into law so that we can get the work done, clean 10


### up our carbon in the air, and make the air safer 11



### for everyone to breathe. Than k you. 12



### MR. PAGE: Thank you. Sanaa. 13


### MS. SLEDGE: Hi, I'm Sanaa Sledge, S

- L

- E

14



### D

- G

- E. 15



### I'm Sanaa Sledge, I'm 10 years old and 16



### I'm an honor student at Baker Elementary School 17


### in Richmond, Virginia. I'm also Niasia's younger 18


### sister. Like Niasia I'm a pagean t winner. I 19


### hold the title of Ms. Candyland Ultimate Grand 20



### Supreme, and I also love to volunteer. 21


### I'm a Girl Scout. I've spoken at local 22

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### boys and girls club events, and I helped at an 1


### event for people in Richmond with special needs. 2



### I also volunteer at t he American Lung 3


### Association's Fight for Air Climb in Richmond. I 4


### helped encourage climbers to reach the top to 5


### help people with lung disease. 6


### I want to help kids everywhere lead happy 7



### health lives. I don't have asthma but I know how 8



### scary asthma attacks can be. It's really tough 9


### to watch your big sister have trouble breathing. 10


### I remember visiting Niasia in the hospital. It 11


### was tough for my whole family when Niasia was 12



### sick. 13



### I'm so happy now that she doesn't have to 14


### go to the hospital anymore for her a sthma. I 15



### want all kids with asthma to have the same chance 16


### to be healthy and active. That's why I want to 17


### add my voice to Clean Power Plan. We need to 18


### clean up the air pollution that makes kids with 19


### asthma sick. Thank you. 20



### MR. PAGE: Thank you all very much for 21


### coming here. I appreciate your testimony. 22

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### All right. Is Molly Simon ready to 1



### talk? 2


### MS. SIMON: Hello. My name is Molly 3



### Simon. I work for the National Wildlife 4


### Federation, and I'm here today to deliver 5


### testimony on behalf of Ida Sargent, wh o is a 2014 6


### Winter Olympian. 7



### MR. PAGE: Molly, you spell your name 8



### Simon? 9



### MS. SIMON: Uh

- huh. 10



### MR. PAGE: Yep. 11



### MS. SIMON: Yep. 12



### MR. PAGE: Great. Thank you. 13


### MS. SIMON: All right. Thank you for 14


### the opportunity to submit formal testimony 15


### regarding the EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan. 16


### My name is Ida Sargent and I am writing today 17



### from Craftsbury, Vermont to express my strong 18


### support for EPA's historic action to combat 19


### climate change by setting limits on carbon 20


### pollution for existing power plants. 21



### I grew up in Northern Vermont in a rural 22

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### area and learned to ski as soon as I could walk. 1



### From the first snow in the late fall until the 2


### snow melt in late March, I would strap on my skis 3


### and ski from my front door, gliding across the 4



### snow , exploring the local f ields and woods. 5


### I soon became passionate about skiing and 6



### used the sport to develop a love for the local 7


### landscape, as well as an appreciation of a 8


### healthy lifestyle. 9


### I have followed this passion to the 10


### highest level, representing the United States of 11



### A merica last February at the 2014 Winter Olympics 12



### in Sochi, Russia. 13


### Competing in the Olympics for Team USA 14



### was a dream come true, but also part of a long 15


### journey and countless hours of hard work. Along 16


### the way I have seen many changes to our winters, 17



### and t hus the sport that I love. 18


### Every winter the first snowfall happens a 19


### little later, and the January fall lasts a little 20



### longer. 21


### At home in Vermont ski areas are being 22

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### forced to expand their snowmaking capacity in 1


### order to keep up with the warming climat e. Not 2


### only does this create a financial burden for one 3


### of the state's largest industries, but it also 4


### pulls from the joy of being able to actually 5



### cross

- country ski across the pristine landscapes 6


### which make up the Green Mountains. 7


### This is not just an i solated problem for 8



### Vermont or our country. Last year on the 9


### International Racing Circuit I competed for the 10


### U.S. Ski Team in World Cup and Olympic races in 11


### 11 countries, and raced on manmade snow every 12


### single one of them. 13



### Lack of snow caused race courses to be 14


### shortened to small loops of artificial snow, 15


### which only perpetuates the problem. 16



### It's summertime now, but I'm still ski 17


### training with my eye set on the 2018 Olympics, 18


### and hopefully snowy winters ahead. I just 19



### finished an afternoon run around the roads of my 20


### town in Craftsbury, Vermont. As I ascend the 21


### higher hills I had a wonderful view of a wind 22

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### farm on a neighboring ridge. I am proud to be 1


### from a community which values clean power and 2


### looks forward to seeing more of these renewable 3



### resources a cross our nation. 4



### The U.S. EPA's Clean Power Plan is a 5


### major step in this direction. Through targeting 6


### carbon pollution this plan will protect our 7


### winters by promoting a future in which we invest 8


### in more sources of clean energy and less in fuels 9



### that poll ute our climate. 10


### Placing a direct target on carbon 11


### pollution can allow us to reach our potential of 12


### utilizing renewable resources like wind and 13



### solar, and force us all to reduce our energy 14


### demand through energy efficiency. 15


### I have witnessed changing winters and the 16


### effects of extreme weather fueled by climate 17


### change, both in local communities in Vermont and 18



### across the globe, and I applaud the EPA for 19


### taking this much needed step to address the 20



### course that we are on. 21


### Thank you for the opportunity to share my 22

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### experiences and I look forward to seeing the 1


### change which the Clean Power Plan will spark. I 2


### hope to continue to ski across snowy landscapes 3


### in Vermont for many winters to come, and to share 4


### my passion for the sport with future generations. 5



### Thank you. 6



### MR . PAGE: Thank you, Ms. Simon. We 7


### appreciate you being here. 8



### Are there any other speakers that would 9


### like to speak now? The folks that have been 10


### signed up don't come until after the break at 11


### 6:00. So if there's anybody here that wants to 12



### go now, we coul d accommodate that and

-- 13


### Hearing none we'll adjourn until 6:00 14


### this evening for the evening testimonies then. 15



### Thank you all very much. 16


### (Dinner recess from 4:34 p.m. until 6:01 17



### p.m.) 18


### MR. PAGE: Good evening. Thank you all 19


### for coming here this evening and my name is Steve 20


### Page and I’m the Director of the Office of Air 21


### Quality Planning and Standards here at EPA, and 22

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### that's in the Office of Air and Radiation that my 1


### fellow panelists are a part of. 2


### We are the offices who work together to 3



### develop the prop osed power plant rules, and it's 4


### I think one of the most important as well as 5


### rewarding parts of our job to not only then put a 6


### proposal out, but then to get public comment on 7



### it. That's to us, I think, most of us feel that 8


### that's the most important part of our job. We 9


### put together a proposal lots of different ways, 10


### but then to get the public input and then reshape 11


### the proposal in a way that makes good policy 12


### sense is what most of us enjoy. 13



### I've got a statement that I have to read 14



### that we read in front of all our hearings, so 15


### we're going to be appropriate that way. Before I 16


### do that I'd like the panelists to introduce 17



### themselves so you can hear from them, and then 18


### I'll get on with the rituals here. 19


### MS. STEVENS: My name is Gabrielle 20



### Stevens. I'm an enviro nmental scientist with the 21


### Office of Atmospheric Programs. 22

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### MR. PAGE: Great. Sorry, Beth. 1


### MS. CONLIN: It's no problem. Hi. I'm 2


### Beth Conlin. I'm an environmental protection 3


### specialist with the Office of Atmospheric 4



### Programs. 5


### MR. PAGE: All righty. T hese guys are 6


### experienced hearing officers. They've been doing 7



### a couple days worth of hearings in various 8


### capacities. So, we're here today to listen to 9



### your comments on the two proposed rules to reduce 10


### carbon pollution from power plants. EPA 11



### announced b oth of those proposed rules on June 12



### 2nd, 2014. 13



### Power plants are the largest source of 14


### carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 15


### roughly one third of all domestic greenhouse gas 16


### emissions. The first rule is EPA's proposed 17


### Clean Power Plan for existing power plants. 18


### This proposal consists of two main parts, 19


### state specific goals to lower carbon pollution 20


### from power plants, and guidelines to help states 21


### develop their plans for meeting the goals. And 22

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### this proposal gives states flexibility in 1


### determining how they'll meet their goals. States 2


### will choose what goes into their plans, that show 3


### how they will achieve the needed reductions and 4


### meet their goals by 2030. 5


### The second rule that we're taking comment 6


### on is EPA's proposed rule to address carbon 7



### dioxide emission from modified and reconstructed 8


### power plants. This rule would set emission 9


### limits for two groups of power plants, those that 10


### make physical or operational changes that 11


### increase the plant's maximum achievable hourly 12



### rate of emissions, and those th at replace 13



### components to such an extent that the new 14


### components exceed 50 percent of the capital cost 15


### of an entirely new comparable facility. 16


### If you want more details on either of 17



### those proposed rules there are fact sheets 18


### available near the registration d esk. We also 19



### have a lot of information on our websites. 20


### Today's hearing is one of four public 21


### hearings the EPA is holding across the country. 22

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### We've had tremendous interest in each of the 1


### hearings, and today we've had many people signed 2



### up to speak and it's been our pleasure to hear 3


### from everybody. We have a full evening planned 4


### ahead for this evening and this will be our last 5


### session for the public hearings. 6



### Before we get started, though, I want to 7


### go through a few ground rules that will help make 8



### toda y's hearing run smoothly. 9


### First you should check in at the 10


### registration desk. Even if you're not planning 11


### to speak and if you signed up to speak online or 12



### by phone but haven't told us that you're here, 13


### please step out to the registration desk and let 14



### th e EPA staff know that you have arrived. 15


### Second, if you are a speaker you were 16


### given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 17


### or Room B. This is Room A. Are you in the right 18


### room is probably a good question to ask. If not, 19


### this is a good time to switch. 20


### All right. So here's how we're going to 21


### run the hearing. We're going to call up the 22

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### speakers in pairs to the table in front of us, 1



### and so when you hear your name called come on up. 2



### When I call on you to speak please state your 3


### name and spell it for th e court reporter. Your 4



### comments will be transcribed and included in the 5



### record of comments on the proposed rule. 6


### Each speaker will have five minutes to 7


### give comments, and we have a light to help you 8


### know how much time you have left to speak. The 9


### light

-- there you go. Thank you for the 10



### demonstration. 11


### When the light turns from green to yellow 12


### that means you have one minute remaining. When 13


### it turns red, that's a signal to wrap up your 14


### testimony. The light will flash red and beep 15



### when you have spoken for five minutes and it's 16


### time to stop. 17


### When you're finished speaking please 18


### remain at the table until the person next to you 19


### has completed his or her testimony. We're here 20


### to listen to you today, however there may be 21


### times in the course of events tonight t hat one of 22

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### the panelists will ask you for a clarification. 1


### And you shouldn't be put off by that. We're just 2


### trying to get as much information for the purpose 3


### of the record as we can. Sometimes when people 4


### reference studies that they've used as resources
, 5


### sometimes they'll ask the, do you have that 6


### study? We'd like to have that study. That kind 7


### of thing. 8


### Don't worry, we're not going to give you 9


### the third degree. It really is more 10


### clarification of your testimony. 11


### If you've brought a written copy of yo ur 12


### testimony please give it to the staff at the 13


### registration desk before you leave today. 14



### Because of the large number of people who 15


### have signed up to speak today, and to be fair to 16


### everyone we're going to have to strictly enforce 17



### the five minute limit. If you have additional 18


### comments you would like to make you can submit 19


### them in writing. 20


### And this is an important point here. We 21


### can assure you that the EPA gives just as much 22

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### consideration to the comments we receive in 1


### writing as we do comments that we r eceive at 2


### public hearings like this one. 3


### So if you have more that you would like 4


### to say tonight and there's not time, please 5


### submit your comments and I promise you they will 6


### be reviewed. There's plenty of time to get 7



### written comments in. The comment dea dline is 8


### October 16th, 2014, and we will put any written 9


### comments submitted today in the official docket 10



### for the proposed rule. Instructions for 11


### submitting written comments in other ways are 12


### available at the front desk. And again, just ask 13



### somebody at th e front desk how you can do that. 14



### This session will run until

-- we're 15



### scheduled to run between 8:00 and 9:00 depending 16



### on the number of speakers that show. We'll be 17


### here to take people's testimony even if they come 18



### in a little bit later than that. 19



### I gu ess I want to ask each of you to 20



### please be respectful of everyone who speaks 21


### today. So far we haven't had a problem with 22

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### that. We've had people show up with widely 1


### varying views on these rules, and sometimes about 2


### EPA, and we've let everybody speak their piece 3



### and then

-- even applause sometimes slows things 4


### down. So if we could kind of listen quietly so 5



### that everyone can be heard. 6


### Thank you again for taking the time to 7



### share your comments on EPA's proposed rules. And 8


### with that, I think we should get sta rted. 9


### Our first speaker slated for tonight are 10



### Philo Collins and Jeff Saxe. 11


### Mr. Collins, if you'll spell your first 12



### name, or last name, excuse me. And when you're 13



### ready, please proceed. 14


### MR. COLLINS: My last name is Collins, C

15



### O

- L

- L

- I

- N

- S. 16



### MR. PAGE: Okay. Very good. 17



### MR. COLLINS: I've been a D.C. resident, 18



### an attorney here, a Sierra Club volunteer, 19


### although I don't represent the Sierra Club. I've 20


### been an Eagle Scout. I'm a Christian. Bicycled 21


### across the United States. But perhaps more than 22

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### anythi ng I'm a human being who lives on Earth and 1


### I support your standards and rules and wish they 2



### could be somewhat even more strong than they are 3



### now. 4


### Carbon is a pollutant. Michelle 5


### Bachmann, a representative in the House of 6


### Representatives, has said at on e point that Co2 7



### was natural, therefore it was harmless. But she 8


### didn't volunteer to put her head in a plastic 9


### bag, such as we keep plastics away from children 10


### for that reason because toxicity depends on 11


### dosage a lot of times for many things. 12



### Like salt, we need it in our food, but we 13


### can't have too much of it. Even water, if you're 14



### -- some people have run marathons in hot weather 15


### and they sweat out a lot of salts. Their brain 16



### needs a salt content of near sea water, and if 17


### you have too much water and it dilutes it too 18



### much your synapses stop working, you can have 19


### convulsions and die. So dosage is an important 20


### thing and 400 parts per million, which we're 21


### passing now, is heating the planet up noticeably, 22

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### and scientists have recognized that. 1



### I've met Jam es Hanson with the NASA 2



### Climate Scientists several times and heard him 3


### speak, and even talked to him myself. 4


### So as a religious person I'd say that I 5


### saw the orthodox patriarch, Ecumenical patriarch 6


### from Constantinople speak at Georgetown 7


### University a cou ple years ago, and he said that 8


### the Bible says that God gave man dominion over 9



### the Earth, but that did not mean domination; that 10


### we're not here to destroy everything, we're to 11


### take care of it, and caretaking rather than 12



### wantonness . So that's an aspect tha t I think 13


### that's important. 14


### Because it's easy enough to put short 15


### term goals or personal or corporate profits ahead 16



### of the future of ourselves and our children and 17


### grandchildren and further generations for a long 18



### time. We need to make the transition as sm oothly 19


### as possible from the fossil fuels which are 20


### depleting which means that they're disappearing. 21


### One would think that we actually hate 22

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### fossil fuels because we're destroying them about 1


### as fast as humanly possible, and we hate the 2



### climate because we're de stroying that about as 3


### fast as humanly possible. 4



### But that comes from the lawyerly percent 5


### that people intend the logical consequence of 6


### their actions. And if the consequence of our 7


### actions is to destroy fossil fuels and destroy 8


### the climate, that apparen tly would be what we 9


### intend. Although from our own personal knowledge 10


### of psychology people often do things that they 11


### did not intend. So perhaps we don't consciously 12


### intend to destroy things, we just forget about 13


### it. It just passes by our mind. It's in a 14


### framework which is difficult to comprehend 15


### because a little bit of carbon pollution here and 16



### there doesn't seem to add up, or we turn the 17



### switch, we don’t see anything happening, you 18


### know, to the world at that point. But small 19



### effects added together can have an impact. 20



### Now I saw a site on the internet, 21


### Skeptical Science, which said that the amount of 22

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### heat, just the heat not necessarily explosive 1


### impact of the

-- that's being added to the Earth 2


### ever minute is equal to about four Hiroshima 3



### bombs and about 2 billion Hiroshima bombs since 4



### 1984 in terms of the heat content . So putting 5


### that into an understandable thing, it's a 6



### millimeter

-- about a yard is 1,000

-- I mean, a 7



### meter is 1,000 millimeters. That's the 8



### definition. 9



### Now 1,000 meters is a kilometer, a bout 10



### .62 miles. And that would be a million 11


### millimeters, and then you'd have to go 1,000 12


### kilometers, about 620 miles to equal a billion. 13


### And 2 billion would get us to Chicago. And that 14


### would be how man atomic bombs have gone of, of 15



### Hiroshima size, which is relatively small 16



### compared to modern ones since the 1998 in terms 17



### of the heat content. 18



### So maybe that's not understandable, but 19


### it would be like if everybody was running a hot 20


### plate or several hot plates all the time, with 21



### like 1,500 watts all the time . It's just a huge 22

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### amount. Although every little piece doesn't seem 1



### to add up as much. 2



### So I think that we should need to be 3


### taking care of the Earth as Ecumenical patriarch 4


### of the Orthodox Church said, although I'm not 5


### Orthodox myself, I agree with that. And I 6



### support your rule. Thank you. 7


### MR. PAGE: Thank you, sir. Mr. Saxe. 8


### MR. SAXE: I'm Jeffrey Saxe, S as in Sam, 9



### A

- X

- E. 10



### And I'm a Rabi at a reform Jewish 11


### congregation called Temple Rode of Shalom in 12


### Falls Church, Virginia. I have some members of 13


### my congregation here with me. I would love it if 14


### they would stand up for just a moment so that we 15



### can be counted. 16



### MR. PAGE: Wow. 17



### MR. SAXE: Thank you. I have three very 18


### young children who cannot fathom the changes that 19


### we are addressing today, but who a re constantly 20



### amazed at the beauty of the world around them. I 21


### draw my inspiration from them. And I also draw 22

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### it from my religious tradition. 1



### Judaism teaches us the following story. 2


### After God finished creating the world, God walked 3



### the first humans arou nd the Garden of Eden and 4


### said to them, look at my works. See how 5


### beautiful they are and how excellent. For your 6


### sake I created them all. See to it that you do 7


### not spoil or destroy my world . For if you do 8


### there will be no one else to repair it. 9


### I imagi ne that this warning might have 10



### seem strange to Adam and Eve. How could they 11


### destroy God's creation? What danger was God 12


### alluding to that they could not see? 13


### I'm amazed by this legend, written down 14


### thousands of years ago by sages who, like my 15



### children, could have had no idea of the threats 16



### that the Earth faces today. 17



### I'm amazed also at how difficult it 18


### remains to heed those words for us. Even knowing 19


### everything we know now. 20


### In my community there is a group of 21


### dedicated members who are constantly sear ching 22

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### for ways to help our congregation reduce its 1


### carbon footprint, do a better job minimizing and 2


### recycling the waste created by our 5,000 or so 3


### members, and educate our community on the need to 4


### remember God's warning to humanity. 5



### This is hard work for so many reasons. 6


### Complex problems, competing needs, the difficulty 7


### of helping people remember in their daily lives 8


### to consider consequences that we cannot see. 9



### It's hard to consider our world and its future 10



### when all we can see is what is in front of us 11



### t oday. This is why we need the wisdom of our 12


### traditions and it is why we need national leaders 13


### who will take action with a larger vision in mind 14



### to protect our future. 15


### The environmental leadership team of my 16


### congregation can only do so much, and that is wh y 17


### they are here with me today. We know that a 18



### solar panel on our temple's rooftop, and a sound 19


### plan to dispose of our waste are only drops in 20


### the sea. You can make a big difference. 21



### You can help ensure that we do not 22

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### destroy our world so that my children and yours 1


### can enjoy it. I'm also here today as an 2



### American. This nation is not founded on the idea 3


### of letting events take place around us, come what 4


### may. The American way is to take control of our 5



### own future and work towards a vision of what it 6



### should be. 7



### As a Jew I am commanded by my religious 8



### traditions not to remain indifferent. As an 9


### American I am asking my leaders to show us a 10


### vision of a strong and healthy Earth and to act 11



### on that vision. 12



### I'm here to be part of that. I have 13



### faith that this cou ntry can show leadership in 14


### protecting our world, and I support the EPA's 15


### leadership in making that hope a reality. 16


### Thank you very much for hearing my words. 17



### MR. PAGE: Thank you. Thank you both for 18


### your comments. We appreciate you being here 19


### tonight. All of you. 20


### Our next speakers are Brad Bickford and 21



### Der ek Meyer. 22

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### Gentlemen, thank you for being here 1


### tonight. Mr. Bickford, you're up first. 2



### MR. BICKFORD: Thank you. 3



### MR. PAGE: Please spell your name for the 4



### court reporter. 5



### MR. BICKFORD: It's Brad B ickford, B as 6


### in boy, I

- C

- K

- F

- O

- R

- D. 7



### And I've been a resident of the District 8



### of Columbia for almost 30 years and want to thank 9


### the EPA for holding these hearings to hear 10


### firsthand how carbon pollution has affected the 11


### citizens of our country. 12



### I grew up in this area and used to play 13



### soccer, softball, and run track. I never smoked. 14


### And now I don't have the breathing power to fill 15


### my lungs with oxygen for burst of energy to 16


### sprint after or chase balls. 17


### Over the years living in Washington the 18


### air has got ten progressively harder to breathe. 19


### I used to work in Alexandria, Virginia for 17 20



### years as a mental health clinician, where a coal 21


### fired plant was situated next to the Potomac 22

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### River about a mile away. 1


### It pumped out hazardous air pollutants 2


### like mercury
, cadmium , chromium, sulfur dioxide, 3


### and nitrogen oxide. I especially recall the 4



### occasional odors of sulfur dioxide, which as you 5


### know smells like rotten eggs when I stepped 6


### outside my office. 7


### Fortunately this plant closed about a 8


### year ago, but it still g oes on in our nation's 9


### capitol. The Capitol Power Plant, located in a 10


### densely populated area up here in Capitol Hill, 11


### still burns coal and biomass product called Black 12


### Liquor. 13


### It pumps out carbon into the Washington 14



### atmosphere . Breathing this polluted a ir now for 15


### over 30 years I have developed a slight case of 16


### asthma. Here is my Advair Discus which I have to 17


### use when I participate in either athletic events 18



### or strenuous efforts. It's like a fish out of 19


### water. My breathing is strained and I get tired 20



### mo re quickly. 21



### I recall President Obama saying that he's 22

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### concerned about what kind of environment he's 1


### going to leave for his daughters. I have my own 2


### first grandchild coming this December, and I 3


### worry what kind of air he or she is going to be 4


### breathing. 5


### I would like to suggest two solutions, 6


### and I have personal experience with both. First, 7


### we can significant decrease coal fossil fuel 8


### burning for energy by supporting and funding 9


### solar energy. On my District home I have 28 10


### solar panels and I am producing pollution

- free 11


### endless electric energy. 12


### Thanks to Federal and city grants these 13



### panels, after seven years, are now completely 14


### paid for and I'm actually getting $1,500 a year 15


### from the power grid. 16



### Just think how much cleaner the air we 17



### breathe could be fro m an endless power source 18


### where we don't create scars on mountain tops, 19


### holes in the ground, or kill any aquatic life in 20



### our streams. 21



### I would like to recommend that millions 22

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### of Americans have these panels on their houses. 1


### Millions of dollars spent on he alth care to treat 2



### bronchial and cardiac disorders could be saved 3


### and redirected into providing all Americans with 4



### carbon

- free energy sources. Hundreds of 5


### thousands of children could also be spared of 6



### asthma conditions. 7


### And think of the thousands of new j obs 8


### that this will create. Coal miners can escape 9


### their extremely dangerous jobs and be retrained 10


### for jobs with the solar industry. Congress and 11


### our city and states should absolutely continue to 12


### fund and increase tax rebates for solar energy. 13



### This seems to me to be a no

- brainer. 14



### We now need a national mobilization, like 15


### during World War I and II, to fight for our 16



### survival against global warming. Our 17


### mobilization goal should be to get Americans to 18



### pledge to plant hundreds of thousands of trees 19



### annually. We could solicit private industries to 20


### donate these tree saplings to this cause and 21


### acknowledge them with confirmations continuously 22

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### over the social media. 1



### As we know trees absorb carbon, are 2



### aesthetic , provide cooling in the summer, and 3



### have many other wonderful qualities. Hopefully 4


### the Environmental Protection Agency will continue 5


### to be strong in challenging ignorant, selfish, 6


### profit motivated interests, and educate all 7



### Americans about the seriousness of the situation 8



### we are now facing with global war ming. Thank 9



### you. 10


### MR. PAGE: Thank you, Mr. Bickford. Mr. 11



### Meyer. 12


### MR. MEYER: Thank you ladies and 13


### gentlemen. My name is Derek Meyer, that's D

- E

- R

14



### E

- K, last name M

- E

- Y

- E

- R. 15


### I am a resident of Alexandria, Virginia, 16


### which the gentleman before me just refe rred to. 17



### I'd also like to thank Mr. Bickford for the 18


### testimony he just gave with which I agree 19


### wholeheartedly. I also wanted to mention I 20



### support the proposed ruling. 21


### As a Sierra Club volunteer I was very 22

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### involved with the final stages of the effort to 1


### close the coal plant in Alexandria that Mr. 2


### Bickford had mentioned. And one thing that I 3


### felt very strongly was that it had taken a huge 4


### amount of effort to close this one very old, very 5


### limited functioning plant that had been relegated 6



### to backup status. And yet it still felt like it 7



### took a tremendous amount of effort to close that. 8


### And yet, we still as a society have 9



### countless more plants like it emitting carbon 10


### today, which is why I think this rule is a 11


### necessary first step, yet only a first step. And 12


### it's something that I think too many

-- there is 13



### also, I think, too much of a sense that as an 14



### alternative to coal, this view that natural gas 15


### is a good bridge fuel, which in my opinion and 16



### based on numerous scientists that I have heard 17


### speak, it is not. And I would urge people to 18


### focus on renewables. Mr. Bickford was talking 19


### about solar and I would wholeheartedly like to 20



### see more of that, both for its environmental 21


### impact and because it will have a beneficial 22

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### economic impact in reducing the amount of 1



### mo nopolies of energy utilities. 2


### I also think it's important that we do 3


### more with both on and offshore wind, and I'm glad 4


### to see that starting. But these efforts are 5


### only, in this area at least, starting. 6


### My home state of Virginia is playing 7



### catch up, and y et we are among the top states to 8


### be impacted. Both my home city of Alexandria, 9


### and certainly the rest of the east coast of 10


### Virginia, including the Navy facilities in 11


### Hampton Roads and the surrounding communities 12



### there. 13


### And those areas are rushing to addr ess 14


### the impact, but not enough is being done to stem 15



### carbon at its source, when we have viable 16



### alternatives and I think the real obstacles are 17


### primarily political and some economic in nature. 18


### But I believe that we can change this and 19


### most importantly for t he present as well as the 20



### future, we don't need to look to the future to 21



### see the change, we can see many of these changes 22

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### happening now. I think we not only can change 1


### this, we must. And we must do it quickly. 2


### And to help move things along I'm going 3



### to c onclude there. Thank you very much. 4


### MR. PAGE: Thank you both for coming here 5


### tonight and offering your testimony. Very well 6



### done. Thank you. 7


### All righty. Our next speakers are

-- 8


### okay, Jose DeArteaga. Okay. And Yobani 9


### Olatunji. Wow, you guys are going to have to 10


### help me on these names. The spelling and the 11


### pronunciation. Yobani? 12



### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'll find her. 13



### MR. PAGE: Okay, Allen. Thank you. Why 14


### don't we just wait for one minute? 15



### How do you pronounce your last name? 16



### MR. DEARTEAGA: DeArteaga. 17


### MR. PAGE: DeArteaga. Well, I was in the 18



### ball park. 19


### MR. DEARTEAGA: Yeah, you did great. 20



### MR. PAGE: Okay. And all right. Why 21



### don't we go ahead? 22

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### MR. DEARTEAGA: Okay. 1



### MR. PAGE: Let's go ahead and start and 2


### we'll wait for other other spe aker to catch up. 3



### Please proceed. And please spell your last name 4



### for the court reporter. 5


### MR. DEARTEAGA: Certainly. I'm Jose 6



### DeArteaga. That's J

- O

- S

- E DeArteaga, D

- E

- A

- R

- T

7



### E

- A

- G

- A. 8


### I'm from Washington, D.C. and appreciate 9


### this opportunity to speak i n support of including 10



### methane in the President's Climate Action Plan 11



### and EPA's new regulations to reduce carbon 12


### pollution from power plants. 13


### I encourage the EPA to address the issue 14


### of methane, the other major contributor to 15



### current climate crisis. 16



### I r ecently walked the shores of the 17


### Anacostia River at one of my favorite local 18


### national parks, the Kenilworth Aquatic Gardens, 19


### and I spotted some of my favorite resident birds, 20


### including Osprey, Wild Turkeys, and even a Bald 21



### Eagle. 22

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### The toxic emissions from c oal fired power 1


### plants harm these birds and disrupt their mating, 2


### breeding, and parenting. In addition, among the 3


### migratory visitors I have noticed early spring 4


### arrivals, early nesting, and later fall 5


### departures. The scientific experts have nearly 6



### unanim ously concluded that this is due to climate 7


### change, which in large part is caused by burning 8



### coal. 9


### In fact, according to the Audubon Society 10


### as a result of climate change nearly 60 percent 11


### of the 305 species found to winter across North 12



### America have shifte d their range northward by an 13


### average of 40 miles since 1966. And the EPA 14


### should recognize that methane poses similar 15



### threats and also needs to be regulated. 16


### I'd encourage the panel to visit the 17


### Kenilworth Aquatic Gardens and to enjoy the 18



### Osprey and Bald Eagles. Please protect these 19


### birds and cut carbon and methane pollution from 20


### existing power plants and reduce the emissions 21



### for new and modified sources. All our birds are 22

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### counting on you. 1


### In fact, when you go to the Kenilworth 2


### Aquatic Gardens take your children or your 3


### grandchildren with you. They are counting on you 4


### as well. Not only will you benefit from the 5


### natural beauty but you will enhance your 6


### relationships with your loved ones. Your visit 7


### will also remind us of our collective obligation 8



### to red uce toxic exposure that causes cancer, 9



### asthma, and other health problems. All our 10


### children are counting on you. 11


### In fact, when you go to the Aquatic 12



### Gardens, take a few small business owners with 13


### you. A clean healthy environment is good for the 14



### economy. Bird watching, hiking, picnicking
, 15


### canoeing, kayaking are all lucrative parts of our 16


### parochial and national economies. Imagine if we 17



### could make the Anacostia watershed swimmable, 18



### fishable, even snor ke lable. Imagine the land 19


### value and positive economic po tentials. 20



### And don't forget the coffee and food you 21


### snacked on during your national park visit 22

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### creates jobs that depend on clean water as well. 1



### Our economies are counting on you. 2


### In fact when you go to the Kenilworth 3


### Aquatic Gardens take a few economists with you. 4


### We all know innovation drives our economy. In 5



### the energy sector that means renewable sources of 6


### energy like solar and time, thermal and wind. 7


### Not in spending tax payer monies and subsidizing 8


### a small number of wealthy corporations, nor 9



### rescuin g their bad investments or stranded 10



### assets. We need to tax carbon, not twist market 11



### conditions in their favor. We need to assure 12


### that the cost of fossil fuel production is 13


### realized with the corporations themselves and not 14



### downstream consumers. Don't let power 15


### corporations externalize their costs in the form 16


### of pollution cleanup amelioration, health care 17


### costs and lost productivity, damage to the 18


### environment, public health is too high, unfair 19



### and unsustainable. 20



### If the real cost of fossil fuels 21



### reflected a ll these variables and corporations 22

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### were prohibited from externalizing their 1


### production costs, then real renewable energy 2


### sources would immediately be competitive and 3


### innovation would create better technology and 4



### increase the market share of renewable ener gy, 5


### thus, please structure your regulations to ensure 6


### these large powerful corporations don’t simply 7


### switch from one dirty fossil fuel, coal, to 8


### another dirty fossil fuel, gas. 9



### Please promulgate regulations that 10



### reflect the real cost of carbon and creates a 11


### national renewable energy infrastructure. Don't 12



### construct new carbon rules that promote fracking 13


### for gas in U.S. communities. Promote spending 14


### on renewable sources via strong existing 15


### renewable portfolio standards, not building on 16


### expensive infrastruc ture and so

- called bridge 17


### fossil fuels that are just as toxic. Rather, 18



### spent today's dollars on tomorrow's clean energy, 19


### not yesterday's dirty energy, therefore avoiding 20


### the lateral move from coal to gas, but a vertical 21


### move from dirty to clean. 22

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### The Ame rican people know this and there 1


### is precedent. These same companies resisted 2


### regulations designed to heal the effects of acid 3



### rain on forest and lakes in Eastern United 4



### States, caused by sulfur dioxide emissions from 5


### coal fired power plants, and the chemi cal 6


### companies fought rules designed to stop them from 7


### burning a hole in the ozone layer. 8


### Ask communities that rely on tourism and 9



### clean water in the Adirondacks if the acid rain 10


### regulations worked to save their communities and 11



### economies. 12



### Moreover, in b oth cases the exact 13



### industries thrived and nature healed. The dire 14


### economic consequences that corporations predicted 15


### not only did not come true, but the opposite 16


### happened. Our economy is counting on you. 17


### In fact when you go to the Aquatic 18



### Gardens take a few local and national politicians 19


### with you. A strong national action plan is good 20


### for our democracy, and the President's Climate 21


### Action Plan and EPA's carbon pollution 22

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### protections are a good start to bringing these 1



### people

-- bringing your people clean en ergy. 2


### The American people want clean air and 3


### water. They want to protect wildlife and the 4


### environment. They like to swim and snorkel, and 5


### are in favor in strong effective regulations, 6


### they want what is fair. The American people 7



### don't want to shift the cost of their

-- don't 8


### get to shift the cost of their household or small 9


### businesses to their neighbors or dump them into 10


### the public domain. Don't let big corporations do 11



### the same. 12


### And they don't want big energy companies 13



### to be able to do that. It's not fair. They want 14


### big corporations

-- they don't want big 15


### corporations to exploit public resources and to 16


### unfairly dominate our democracy. Our democracy 17


### is counting on you. 18



### Please tax carbon, address carbon dioxide 19



### and methane, coal and gas, strengthen the 20


### portfolio standards, don't go nuclear, go green, 21



### go lateral

-- don't go lateral, go vertical. 22

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### Turn it, don't burn it. Thank you. 1


### MR. PAGE: Thank you very much for coming 2


### here tonight. Appreciate it. 3


### All righty. Our next two speakers are 4



### Elizab eth Monseu and Laura Bender. 5



### Welcome. Elizabeth , start when you're 6



### ready. 7


### MS. MONSEU: All right. My name is 8


### Elizabeth, nickname Betsy. 9



### MR. PAGE: Betsy. 10



### MS. MONSEU: Monseu. 11



### MR. PAGE: Okay. 12



### MS. MONSEU: M

- O

- N

- S

- E

- U. I'm CEO of the 13



### American Coal Counci l, or ACC. The ACC has been 14


### in existence for 32 years and represents the 15



### collective business interest of the American Coal 16



### Industry . Our members include coal suppliers, 17


### transportation companies, terminals, electric 18



### utilities, industrial consumers, and in dustry 19


### support services providers. They touch every 20


### aspect of turning one of America's most abundant 21



### resources into reliable and affordable 22

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### electricity for the United State economy. 1


### I appreciate the opportunity to address 2


### EPA's proposed Clean Air Act 111D regulations for 3


### greenhouse gas emissions from EGUs. The rule is 4


### lengthy, complex, and far reaching. Its 5


### implementation would cause serious economic harm, 6


### reduce energy diversity, increase electricity 7


### prices, jeopardize grid reliability, result in 8


### major job losses, and hinder coal technology 9



### advances. 10



### Moreover, it will fail to achieve the 11


### administration and EPA's goal of global 12


### leadership on Co2. 13


### The 111D Rule will not meaningful impact 14


### global Co2 emissions. It will, however, alter 15


### U.S. energy policy a nd manipulate our energy mix. 16


### It will predispose fuel choices for electricity 17


### providers and dramatically transform how 18


### electricity is generated, distributed, 19



### transmitted, and used. 20



### In ACC's comments to EPA on its 111B Rule 21


### for carbon for new fossil plan ts, we discussed 22

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### the spikes in natural gas prices and 1


### corresponding increased electricity costs during 2



### the harsh winter of 2014. 3



### The winter was a stark reminder of how 4


### quickly and dramatically energy and electricity 5



### markets can change. Many of the same coal plants 6


### which were essential in meeting electricity needs 7


### and avoiding brownouts or blackouts during the 8


### winter are planned for shutdown beginning in 2015 9



### due to EPA MATS rule. AS a result concerns over 10


### resource adequacy, grid reliability, and 11



### electri city pricing have been expressed by a 12


### chorus of elected officials. Policy makers, 13


### regulators, industry, and also consumers. 14



### EPA's proposed 111D Rule greatly 15


### intensifies the concerns. This regulatory path 16



### to dimi ni shed coal and force an increase in 17



### natu ral gas is at odds with robust competitive 18


### energy markets and affordable, reliable 19


### electricity in America. 20


### From an economy wide perspective the 21


### projected impacts are staggering. In May 2014 22

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### the U.S. Chamber of Commerce analyzed similar 1



### carbon emission sce narios with the following 2



### results through 2030. One, a lower of U.S. GDP 3


### by 51 billion per year. Two, a loss of 224,000 4


### jobs per year. Three, electricity cost increases 5


### of $289 billion. Four, lowering of total 6


### disposable income for households by $586 b illion. 7



### Unfortunately the toll would be the 8



### greatest on the poor, the elderly, small 9


### business, and domestic manufacturing. We have 10



### only to look at the recently repealed carbon tax 11



### in Australia for a reality check. It cost the 12


### economy 8.5 billion annual ly and increased 13


### electricity costs to families by over $500 per 14



### year. 15


### EPA's 111D Rule would impose tremendous 16


### pain with no gain. It will not meaningfully 17


### impact either U.S. or global Co2 levels. The 18


### same U.S. Chamber of Commerce study estimated 19



### that the resulting U.S. carbon reductions 20



### represent only 1.8 percent of global Co2 21


### emissions, which the International Energy Agency 22

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### projects will otherwise grow by 31 percent. 1



### Unilateral U.S. mandates to decrease 2


### carbon emissions will not spur other countries to 3


### take action. Especially developing countries. 4


### They will not risk increasing basic energy costs, 5


### suppressing economic growth, and limiting the 6


### ability to improve the standard of living for 7



### their citizens. 8


### U.S. global climate leaderships should 9



### instead be demonstrated by a strong federal 10


### commitment to technology. Coal was the world's 11


### fastest growing fuel over the past decade and is 12


### projected to surpass oil as the largest energy 13



### source in the future. 14


### Advancing the development of cost 15



### effective coal tec hnologies is the critical path 16


### to global adoption. EPA's proposed 111D Rule is 17


### unworkable. It should be significantly revised 18


### or withdrawn to avoid the economic harm, job 19


### loss, heavy administrative burden, and lack of 20


### benefits of proceeding. ACC request s the EPA 21


### take the following actions now. 22

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### Add public hearings, especially in coal 1


### producing states and states most reliant on coal 2


### generation such as West Virginia, Kentucky, Ohio
, 3


### Indiana, Missouri, Wyoming, and Utah, provide 4



### interactive forums for stakeh olders to address 5


### questions with EPA, extend the 120 day comment 6


### period by at least 60 days, continue and increase 7


### engagement with state and with other agencies 8


### including FERC, NERC, and the Department of 9



### Energy. Thank you. 10



### MR. PAGE: Thank you very much. Ms. 11



### Bender. 12


### MS. BENDER: Good evening. My name is 13


### Laura Kate Bender. That's B, like boy, E

- N

- D

- E

14



### R. 15



### I'm the Healthier Coalition coordinator 16


### for the American Lung Association in Virginia. 17


### On behalf of our coalition of public health 18


### groups, medical pr ofessionals, and patients with 19


### lung disease and their families, I'm here today 20


### to ask you to protect public health and finalize 21


### strong limits on carbon pollution from existing 22

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### power plants. 1



### I work on the state and local level to 2


### education patients and me dical professionals 3


### about the health impacts of air pollution and 4


### climate change. I use data like that from the 5


### Lung Association State of the Air Report, using 6


### EPA's data, which found that in Virginia's 7


### population centers, Richmond, Roanoke, Hampton 8



### Roads , and of course the Washington, D.C. Metro 9


### area, ozone pollution has gotten worse. 10


### You've probably heard this report cited 11


### today and yesterday by people who live in areas 12


### that got failing grades for their high levels of 13


### pollution. To me what's even more s obering is 14


### that after nearly two decades of progress in 15


### reducing ozone levels across the country, many 16


### locations actually dropped back down a grade. 17



### We're able to correlate that rise in 18


### ozone with the high summer temperatures we saw in 19



### 2012. That's consis tent with scientist's 20


### predictions that more carbon pollution leads to 21


### higher temperatures and higher temperatures will 22

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### lead to more unhealthy ozone days, undoing much 1


### of the progress we've made in cleaning up our 2



### air. 3


### What I've noticed when I work througho ut 4


### Virginia, though, is that more often than not 5


### people don't need me to tell them that air 6


### pollution is unhealthy, or that they're breathing 7


### in dangerous levels of soot and smog. They get 8


### it. And they're willing to use their experiences 9



### to advocate for reductions in the carbon 10


### pollution if it continued to worse their air 11


### quality. 12


### That's why a COPD patient in 13


### Fredericksburg was willing to meet with her local 14



### elected officials to advocate for reductions in 15


### the air pollution that keeps her indoors on too 16



### many days. 17


### It's why hospital employees in Hampton 18


### Roads are asking their colleagues to add their 19


### voices in support of the Clean Power Plan. 20


### It's why statewide health groups, 21


### including the Virginia Society for Respiratory 22

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### Care, Central Virginia, and Roa noke Asthma 1


### Coalitions and the Virginia Rural Health 2


### Association have joined the lung association in 3


### advocating for strong reductions in carbon from 4


### existing power plants. 5


### It's why a teenager with asthma and her 6


### little sister both extremely active in the 7



### R ichmond community traveled here earlier today 8


### with their family to speak before you. 9


### The Lung Association urges EPA to go even 10


### further, both by strengthening state emission 11


### reduction targets and shortening the time frame 12


### for compliance to five years. This will also 13


### create more of the immediate positive impacts of 14



### the rule, the co

- benefits, the reductions in 15


### particulate matter, ozone precursors, and other 16


### pollutants that come from cutting carbon. And 17



### that will result in fewer asthma attacks, fewer 18



### missed d ays of work and school, and fewer 19



### premature deaths. 20


### Also the American Lung Association does 21


### not support bio

- mass combustion for electricity 22

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### production. We ask that you revise the Clean 1



### Power Plan to exclude bio

- mass combustion as an 2


### acceptable alternative energy source. 3


### I'm an employee of the American Lung 4



### Association, but I'm also one of the more than 5


### 700,000 people in Virginia who have asthma. I 6


### know what it's like to spend a day at the 7


### emergency room, even a week in the hospital 8



### because of asthma exace rbations. 9



### I also know that after many years of 10


### improvement I've noticed lately that my symptoms 11


### have worsened. It's not something I take 12


### lightly. It means I spent less time doing the 13


### activities I enjoy, like running outside. It 14


### means it takes me longe r to recover from the 15


### common cold, meaning lost productivity. And it 16


### means that I go through more inhalers and other 17


### medications and that gets expensive. 18


### Of course I can't say that my worsening 19



### asthma symptoms are caused by climate change, but 20



### what I can say is that ozone, as well as 21


### allergens including pollens, exacerbate my 22

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### asthma. And we're already seeing both of those 1


### triggers increase in a way that's consistent with 2


### what scientists say will happen as a result of 3


### the warming climate. 4



### I ask you on beha lf of the American Lung 5



### Association of Virginia, and the many people we 6



### work with who treat or are treated for chronic 7


### lung disease, please strengthen and finalize the 8



### Clean Power Plan. Thank you. 9


### MR. PAGE: All right. Thank you both 10


### for your testimon y tonight. We appreciate it. 11


### All righty. For the sake of efficiency 12


### the speakers that are arriving now are being 13



### routed into the conference room B, but I wanted, 14


### before we adjourned this hearing to make sure 15


### that, is there anybody here that had intende d to 16



### speak? You can speak here. You've got a very 17


### attentive panel here. Or you can go over into 18


### the room B, hearing room B, and be heard over 19


### there if you need a little bit more time to think 20


### about what you were going to say or prepare. 21



### Is there anybo dy here who would like to 22

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### address the panel tonight? 1


### All right. Well, if you change your 2


### mind there's another panel over there that are no 3



### less agreeable than we are. But anyway, thank 4


### you all for coming and we appreciate your support 5


### of these public he arings by being here. We've 6


### had a lot of great testimony over the last 7


### several days and certainly have a lot to do in 8



### terms of compiling the testimonies and 9


### summarizing them and then briefing our senior 10


### managers in the agency about what the options 11



### are. 12



### S o with that I'm going to adjourn this 13


### particular hearing and I'm going to probably go 14



### over to the next room over there and listen to 15


### some testimony myself. It will be nice to be in 16



### the audience. Thank you all very much. 17



### ( H earing concluded at 6:47 p.m.) 18

19

20

21

22

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