NEAL R. GROSS

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### U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

+ + + + +

COMMERCIAL REFRIGERATION EQUIPMENT NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE MAKING PUBLIC MEETING ON TEST PROCEDURES

+ + + + +

PUBLIC MEETING

+ + + + +

WEDNESDAY DECEMBER 5, 2013

+ + + + +

The Public Meet ing met in Room 8E

- 089, James Forrestal Building, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Meeting Facilitator, presiding.

PRESENT

DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public Solutions, Inc. TIM ANDERSON, Huss mann Corporation ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy JEFF BAUMAN, National Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Products, Inc. MARY DANE, Traulsen Refrigeration BRUCE HIERLMEIER, Zero Zone CHARLIE HON, True Manufacturing Company BYRON HORAK, Inter tek STEVEN KING, Royston, LLC CHARLES LLENZA, Department of Energy MASSOUD NESHAN, Southern Store Fixtures, Inc. JOE SANDERS , Traulsen RefrigerationNEAL R. GROSS

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### RON SHEBIK, Hussmann Corporation (via teleconference) NICK SCHRINER, Arneg USA LOUIS STARR, N orthwest Energy Efficiency Alliance ANWAR SUHARNO, Royston, LLC JENNIFER TIEDEMAN, Department of Energy COLLIN WEBER, Navigant Consulting SARAH WIDDER, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory LAUREN ZELINSKI, Air

- Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute

ALSO PRESENT :

LAURA BARHYDT , Department of Energy GREGORY ROSENQUIST , Lawrence Berkeley National LaboratoryNEAL R. GROSS

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### A

- G

- E

- N

- D

- A

Welcome, Introductions, Agenda Review and Opening Statements

......................... 4 Doug Brookman

Rulemaking History and Timeline

.......... 10 Charles Llenza

Test Procedure Scope and Definitions

..... 16 Sarah Widder

Clarifications to the Test Procedure

..... 11 9 Collin Weber

Other Test Procedure Issues

............. 1 63 Sarah Widder

Closing Remarks and Contacts and Information

............................. 22 7 Charle s LlenzaNEAL R. GROSS

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### P

- R

- O

- C

- E

- E

- D

- I

- N

- G

- S 1



### 9:01 a.m. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, 3



### everyone. Welcome. This is the U.S. 4



### Department of Energy's public meeting on the 5



### test procedure for commercial refrigeration 6



### equipment. 7



### Today is December 5, 2013 here in 8



### the For restal Building in Washington, D.C. 9



### My name's Doug Brookman from Public Solutions 10



### in Baltimore. I'm glad to see you here this 11



### morning. 12



### We're going to start with 13



### welcoming remarks from Ashley Armstrong. 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'd just like 15



### to welcome yo u. My name is Ashley Armstrong. 16



### I oversee the development of all the test 17



### procedures coming out of the Department as 18



### well as some of our testing and compliance 19



### efforts here. 20



### We appreciate you guys all taking 21



### the time to travel and we also appreciate 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### th ose participating by webinar. 1



### The purpose of today is really to 2



### gain your feedback. So we encourage you to 3



### ask a lot of questions, provide us your 4



### opinions on things. It really will help us 5



### get to a better answer in the end. 6



### And we're looking forward to the 7



### discussion. So thanks again. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Let's 9



### do introductions ; that's where we typically 10



### start. Start to my immediate left, your name 11



### and organization. 12



### MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson, 13



### Hussman n Corporation. 14



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Br uce 15



### Hierlmeier, Zero Zone. 16



### MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, 17



### Southern Store Fixtures. 18



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 19



### Manufacturing. 20



### MS. DANE: Mary Dane, Traulsen. 21



### MR. SCHRINER: Nick Schriner, 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Arneg USA. 1



### MS. ZELINSKI: Lauren Zelinski, 2



### AHRI. 3



### MR. HORAK : Byron Horak from 4



### Intertek. 5



### MR. BAUMAN: Jeff Bauman, 6



### National Refrigeration. 7



### MR. KING: Steven King, Royston 8



### LLC. 9



### MR. STARR: Louis Starr, 10



### Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. 11



### MS. TIEDEMAN: Jennifer Tiedeman, 12



### DOE general counsel. 13



### MS. ARMSTRO NG: Ashley Armstrong, 14



### DOE. 15



### MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, 16



### Pacific Northwest National Lab. 17



### MR. WEBER: Collin Weber, 18



### Navigant. 19



### MR. ROSEN QUIST : Greg Rosen quist , 20



### Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### all of you. And agai n, welcome. Thanks for 1



### being here so we can get an early start on 2



### this day. 3



### All of you received a packet of 4



### information as you came in this morning and 5



### I'm going to do a very brief agenda review. 6



### Immediately following this agenda review 7



### there is an opp ortunity for anybody that 8



### wishes to do so to make brief opening 9



### remarks, summary statements about issues that 10



### matter to you at the outset here. 11



### Following that we're going to 12



### hear a rulemaking history and timeline, and 13



### then proceeding immediately toward a 14



### description of the test procedure scope and 15



### definitions. 16



### We'll take a break midmorning 17



### round about 10:30 or so and then 18



### clarifications to the test procedure. And 19



### another break it has listed at noon

- ish. 20



### We'll see how that goes, see how far we are 21



### alo ng at that point. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### But then whenever we get there 1



### other test procedure issues. And then again, 2



### projected to end today around 1:15 or so. 3



### As we get close to closing 4



### another opportunity for anybody that wants to 5



### make statements for the record, raise 6



### addi tional issues, make sure your issues are 7



### fully covered. So that's the plan. 8



### I'd ask for your consideration if 9



### you would please speak one at a time. Please 10



### say your name each time you speak. Say your 11



### name for the record and there will be a 12



### complete tra nscript of this meeting. If you 13



### could keep the focus here, put your cell 14



### phones on silent mode and limit sidebar 15



### conversations. 16



### Be concise and share the air

17



### time. And I'll be queuing individuals by 18



### name as best I can. I wish to encourage 19



### follow

- on c omments. Sometimes the back and 20



### forth is very useful to the Department as 21



### they consider the merits of these arguments. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### For those of you that joined us 1



### by the web, welcome. The Department of 2



### Energy is trying hard to make these meetings 3



### successful via th e web. We hope the 4



### transmission quality is good and is working 5



### well for you. 6



### Please keep your phones on mute 7



### as you listen. And you can raise your hand 8



### in the software program and our webmaster 9



### will insert you in the conversation and 10



### hopefully that w ill work. 11



### And if not you can send your 12



### questions or comments via the software and 13



### she'll hand it to me and then I'll read it 14



### into the record and we'll get that bit of 15



### information into the conversation here. 16



### So, I think that's all the 17



### preliminary stuf f. I see Charles Llenza is 18



### at the microphone. And Charles Llenza for a 19



### rulemaking history and timeline. 20



### Oh pardon me, do opening remarks 21



### first. I skipped a step. Let's do opening 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### remarks first. Anybody that wants to make an 1



### opening statement. No op ening statements? 2



### Okay. So I didn't skip a step. Charles 3



### Llenza. 4



### MR. LLENZA: Okay, I'm just going 5



### to go over quickly on a little bit of a 6



### format here. 7



### Today's meeting is to present the 8



### proposed test procedure for commercial 9



### refrigeration equipmen t. It's actually 10



### amendments to the actual test procedure 11



### that's in place. 12



### And we encourage the participants 13



### to provide a summary of your comments in 14



### written form if possible and provide that and 15



### send that in through our

-- to the docket and 16



### through ou r email system. 17



### This Notice of Proposed 18



### Rulemaking comment period closes on January 19



### 13, 2014. 20



### You will see these issue boxes as 21



### we go through the presentation. These are 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### particular questions that the Department is 1



### interested in finding answers to and these 2



### are
-- we've highlighted some of these 3



### questions in the presentation but a list of 4



### the issues are in the NOPR document and 5



### that's available at that link. 6



### We also have a process or a 7



### procedure on how to submit comments. Please 8



### include the docket nu mber and the RIN number. 9



### And things should be sent to the 10



### email on the slide. It could be sent via 11



### postal or courier to Brenda Edwards and 12



### that's the address. Again, January 13, 2014 13



### is the end of the comment period. 14



### Let me start with a little bit o f 15



### the rulemaking history. EPCA as amended 16



### directs that the test procedure for 17



### commercial refrigeration equipment determined 18



### to be generally an industry testing procedure 19



### and rating procedures developed or recognized 20



### by ASHRAE or by ANSI. And here's the 21



### r eference to the ANSI standard. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### The initial test procedures for 1



### self

- contained refrigerator freezers and 2



### equipment went into effect January 1, 2005. 3



### EPCA also states that if ASHRAE 4



### 117 is amended , the Secretary must rule and 5



### amend the DOE test procedure s to ensure 6



### consistency with the amended ASHRAE 117 7



### standards unless certain findings are made 8



### clear and convincing. 9



### If a test procedure other than 10



### ASHRAE 117 is approved by ANSI the Secretary 11



### must review. And at least once every 7 years 12



### DOE must conduc t an evaluation of the test 13



### procedure. This is by statute. 14



### In t he current CRE test 15



### procedure , On December 2006 DOE established 16



### a test procedure for commercial refrigeration 17



### equipment using the commercial test procedure 18



### from ARI Standard 1200

- 2006. 19



### Th at standard also happens to 20



### refer to the ASHRAE Standard 72

- 2005 as the 21



### test method. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### DOE adopted AHAM Standard HRF

- 1

- 1



### 2004 for measuring refrigerator compartment 2



### volume. This is all part of the current test 3



### procedure that was adopted by the Department. 4



### On February 21, 2012 DOE issued a 5



### test procedure final rule which amend ed the 6



### first established test procedure. And that 7



### test procedure updated references to the 8



### industry ’s test procedures, incorporated a 9



### method for evaluating the energy impacts and 10



### allo wed commercial refrigeration equipment 11



### which cannot achieve the specific rating 12



### temperature to instead be tested at the 13



### lowest temperature at which it is able to 14



### operate. 15



### In today's proposed test 16



### procedure revisions since the publication of 17



### 2012 test pro cedure DOE has received several 18



### inquiries from interested parties. 19



### So, this is a summary basically 20



### of those, but not exclusive but a summary of 21



### the highlights of these inquiries. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### The inquiries had to do with the 1



### applicability for the DOE test procedure and 2



### the current federal energy conservation 3



### standard to various equipment and features, 4



### the definition of certain terms, the proper 5



### configuration of the use of certain 6



### components and features, the proper 7



### application of certain test procedure 8



### provisions, a nd the compliance date for 9



### certain provisions specific to the DOE test 10



### procedure of 2012. 11



### So the NOPR proposes a number of 12



### test procedure revisions in response to these 13



### inquiries. Some of them are listed but 14



### there's others included in the actual NOPR. 15



### D uring the summer of 2013 DOE 16



### initiated a negotiated rulemaking process for 17



### certification for commercial heating, 18



### ventilation, air conditioning and 19



### refrigeration and water heating equipment. 20



### During these negotiations 21



### discussions were held for the treatm ent of 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### certain features of product attributes 1



### specific to commercial refrigeration 2



### equipment under the DOE test procedure. 3



### There's been some consensus 4



### reached regarding treatment of these features 5



### and it was agreed that these clarifications 6



### be codified i n a future rulemaking which is 7



### part of what we're trying to do with our 8



### NOPR

. 9



### This test procedure NOPR contains 10



### proposals reflecting these positions agreed 11



### upon through the negotiated rulemaking. So 12



### this was just adding a few other parameters 13



### to this re vision of the TP NOPR. 14



### We'll use the regular TP NOPR 15



### approval process which will be

-- the already 16



### published NOPR and the a comment period. 17



### Once t hat comment period will close , w e will 18



### go back and deliberate upon the comments and 19



### come up with a final r ule and that would then 20



### be published at some future date. 21



### And that's online and can be 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### looked up at the link that's provided here on 1



### this web page, on this slide. 2



### A little bit of the timeline. We 3



### published October 28. Today we are having 4



### the TP NOPR public meeting. We're looking at 5



### spring 2014 for a final rule and the proposed 6



### final rule has an effective date 30 days 7



### after publication. And that's what I have 8



### for my part of the presentation. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Questions 10



### or comments before we pro ceed? Okay, I see 11



### none. Sarah Widder? 12



### MS. WIDDER: All right. Thank 13



### you, Charlie and thanks, Doug. 14



### As I said before my name's Sarah 15



### Widder and right now we're going to go 16



### through some slides that present a few 17



### clarifications to DOE's test procedur e scope 18



### and particularly some definitions that will 19



### help codify those clarifications of scope. 20



### So first, this is the definition, 21



### DOE's definition of commercial refrigeration 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### equipment that we're all pretty familiar 1



### with. So, a commercial product, not a 2



### consumer product, designed and marketed for

- 3



### - not designed and marketed for medical, 4



### scientific and research purposes, operates at 5



### chilled or frozen temperatures, stores 6



### merchandise horizontally, vertically, or 7



### semi

- vertically, has doors or no doors in a 8



### variety of configurations, is designed for 9



### pull

- down temperature applications or holding 10



### temperature applications and can be self

11



### contained or remote. 12



### So, that is a very large or very 13



### broad definition. And that covers a lot of 14



### commercial refrigeration e quipment that you 15



### all manufacture or we all use, some of which 16



### DOE has set standards for, but not all. 17



### So, there's some types of 18



### commercial refrigeration equipment that DOE 19



### does not currently have standards for. And 20



### this slide just clarifies that. CR E's test 21



### procedure is applicable to some types

-- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### similarly, DOE's test procedure is applicable 1



### to some types of commercial refrigeration 2



### equipment and there are some types of 3



### commercial refrigeration equipment that 4



### cannot be tested using DOE's test proced ure. 5



### And those two things are not perfectly 6



### aligned. 7



### So, DOE's CRE test procedure is 8



### applicable to all the equipment for which DOE 9



### has established standards and in addition, 10



### for example, this griddle stand you can see 11



### in the slide can be tested using the DOE test 12



### procedure and representations regarding the 13



### energy composite of that equipment should be 14



### made using the DOE test procedure, although 15



### it's not covered by standards. 16



### The equipment on the right, prep 17



### tables and salad bar tables, buffet tables 18



### t hat are also refrigerated and fall under the 19



### scope of commercial refrigeration equipment 20



### cannot be tested under DOE's current test 21



### procedure and so they are not subject to the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### same requirements regarding representations 1



### and are not subject to standards. 2



### This is just a clarification of 3



### the scope of CRE's standards. All three of 4



### those types of equipment that were given as 5



### examples before are not currently covered by 6



### energy conservation standards. 7



### And as we all know these 8



### standards are listed at 10 CFR 4 31.66 and any 9



### new standards for equipment would be added to 10



### that section. 11



### To clarify this scope, since 12



### there are some types of commercial 13



### refrigeration equipment with drawers that 14



### could physically resemble chef bases or , you 15



### know, more unique types of co mmercial 16



### refrigeration equipment the DOE proposes to 17



### differentiate this equipment by establishing 18



### a specific definition for chef base or 19



### griddle stand. That definition is listed 20



### here. 21



### Chef base or griddle stand means 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### commercial refrigeration equipment that is 1



### designed and marketed for the express purpose 2



### of having a griddle or other cooking 3



### equipment placed on top of it that is capable 4



### of reaching temperatures hot enough to cook 5



### food. 6



### And with that we reach our first 7



### request for comment. DOE is requ esting 8



### comment on this definition and how it applies 9



### to the type of equipment DOE is wishing to 10



### exclude from standards at this time. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Is this a new 12



### definition? 13



### MS. WIDDER: This is a new 14



### definition to be added to 10 C FR 431.62. 15



### MR. BRO OKMAN: Charlie? 16



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 17



### Manufacturing. Question for you. Under the 18



### same classification there are other units 19



### which are not

-- they're basically the same 20



### as doored units but have drawers instead of 21



### doors. Are they going to fall und er a 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### special classification as well? 1



### MS. WIDDER: This definition is 2



### just with regard to equipment that is 3



### designed to be placed in extremely hot 4



### environments under a griddle. 5



### Those types of equipment that 6



### have drawers and not doors, but are in other 7



### ways similar to conventional commercial 8



### refrigeration equipment will be addressed 9



### later in the slides. But yes, we'll get to 10



### that in a few slides. 11



### MR. HON: Okay. Because the only 12



### issue with these products is they have to 13



### have a lot of capacity. 14



### MS . WIDDER: Right. 15



### MR. HON: Because of the heat 16



### load on top of them. 17



### MS. WIDDER: Right. Thank you. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thoughts on this 19



### proposed definition? Massoud. 20



### MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, 21



### Southern Store Fixtures. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Could you go back to your slides 1



### where you were showing cases that

-- right 2



### here. What is so difficult about testing or 3



### using the DOE test procedure on the equipment 4



### shown on the very right

- hand side? 5



### MS. WIDDER: Well, the issue with 6



### the DOE test procedure and applying it to 7



### t his equipment is that it's not 8



### representative of their use. So there's not 9



### provisions in the test procedure to specify 10



### whether these pans that contain the food and 11



### the temporary door above them should be open 12



### or closed or for how long, or what types of 13



### te st packages should be placed in those bins. 14

15



### So it's just not specific enough 16



### for this type of equipment and not 17



### representative of their use in the field 18



### which is what's required for a DOE test 19



### procedure. 20



### MR. NESHAN: Yes, but that 21



### equipment in the m iddle, there's no temporary 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### door opening, closing, or anything, just open 1



### display. Isn't it? 2



### MS. WIDDER: Well, but similarly 3



### it has the same problem with pans. And the 4



### DOE test procedure doesn't specify how test 5



### packages should be placed in those pans , how 6



### they should be filled, how they relate to 7



### calculation of the refrigerated volume, for 8



### example. 9



### So the DOE test procedure would 10



### describe the refrigerated volume behind these 11



### doors that are on the lower part, but doesn't 12



### describe whether or not the pans are included 13



### in the refrigerated volume calculation. And 14



### those types of specifics are important to get 15



### right so that this equipment is rated 16



### consistently among manufacturers and test 17



### labs. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Byron. 19



### MR. HORAK: Are there plans to 20



### spe cify the loads in the door openings for 21



### this type of product in the near future? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Are you talking 1



### about the middle one? 2



### MR. HORAK: Both of those, 3



### actually. 4



### MS. WIDDER: Both of them. 5



### They're not being considered in this 6



### rulemaking. 7



### MR. HORAK: Okay. 8



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 9



### Manufacturing. There is an NSF test 10



### procedure to verify these products but it is 11



### still

-- it would require additional add

- ons 12



### to that test procedure because it's run with 13



### certain products, certain media samp les, a 14



### long list of information. But it is run 15



### using the ASHRAE 72 test standards at the 16



### pace of the product with additional add

- ons. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: If I'm not 18



### mistaken we still haven't received any 19



### comment on this proposed definition. So I 20



### guess no co mment. How should we take that? 21



### One or two individuals have just given me a 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### thumbs up. I guess that's

-- 1



### MS. WIDDER: Agreement. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Massoud? 3



### MR. NESHAN: Yes, Southern Store 4



### Fixtures. You have in this one on what the 5



### definition, it sa ys that cooking equipment. 6



### Why not warming equipment? Wouldn't the 7



### warming equipment be part of it? Could it be 8



### covered? It has to be only cooking? 9



### MS. WIDDER: So, the DOE's 10



### understanding of this type of equipment and 11



### what makes it unique is the incr eased 12



### refrigeration capacity that's required to 13



### have cooking equipment that is extremely warm 14



### on top of it, hot enough to cook food. So 15



### that's how it's been defined here. 16



### We welcome comment on whether or 17



### not this definition would need to be expanded 18



### to include warming comment, and if so, how it 19



### could be expanded. 20



### The key would be to differentiate 21



### whether or not that type of commercial 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### refrigeration equipment that is associated 1



### with warming equipment is really in fact from 2



### a technical design standpoint different than 3



### the type of griddle stand, chef base and 4



### griddle stand we're attempting to define 5



### here. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Is warming 7



### equipment covered? 8



### MS. WIDDER: Not under commercial 9



### refrigeration equipment. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Charlie. 11



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 12



### Manufacturing. We have sold these types of 13



### items to people who put a warming cabinet on 14



### top of them, but we designed for the harsh 15



### case because the vast majority of the product 16



### is sold with either

-- especially the chef's 17



### base stand with usually fairly high 18



### temperatures for cooking steak. 19



### MS. WIDDER: Right. 20



### MR. HON: And that's where the 21



### majority of the market is. So if we sell 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### anything else it would be the same type of 1



### equipment. 2



### MS. WIDDER: Thank you, Charlie. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks. I 4



### think we've covered that one, yes? Let's 5



### move on. 6



### MS. WIDDER: Okay, there we go. 7



### So, this is just another clarification of how 8



### DOE's test procedures and standards are 9



### applied to equipment. 10



### We're all familiar with the 11



### definition of a basic model for commercial 12



### refrigeration equipment and each basic model 13



### of commercial refrigeration equipment, that's 14



### the unit that is certified to DOE for 15



### comparison and compliance with standards. 16



### And it's rated and tested and subject to 17



### those standards based on the equipment class 18



### to which that basic model belongs. 19



### And we've just received some 20



### questions from

-- some inquiries from 21



### interested parties regarding the application 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### of test procedures and standards to equipment 1



### that are shipped with after

- mar ket doors for 2



### equipment that's offered for sale from the 3



### manufacturer with doors as an optional 4



### accessory. 5



### Regardless of how that unit is 6



### shipped that unit must be tested and 7



### certified as equivalent to a basic model 8



### shipped with doors pre

- installed, simi lar to 9



### other optional accessories that affect energy 10



### use. 11



### Okay, moving on. This is just a 12



### reminder of DOE's categorization of 13



### commercial refrigeration equipment, how we 14



### determine which equipment goes in which 15



### class. 16



### And we have a comment. I wonde r 17



### if I have a request for comment? Okay, let's 18



### take it. 19



### MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman 20



### from National. I apologize, if I can step 21



### back a little bit, Sarah. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. WIDDER: Yes. 1



### MR. BAUMAN: When they say that 2



### the equipment is offered for sale with do ors 3



### as an optional accessory, I'm just trying to 4



### get clarification on that. Because you could 5



### have

-- two areas where I think that is some 6



### manufacturers make open cases that do doors. 7



### Some manufacturers make drawer units, 8



### they're primarily sold with draw ers, but you 9



### can get doors on them. 10



### MS. WIDDER: Yes. 11



### MR. BAUMAN: So you would have to 12



### test it. Can you just explain how that would 13



### work with both? You'd have to list it with 14



### doors as well as drawers? 15



### MS. WIDDER: Yes. So, to the 16



### extent

-- Ashley can go ahead. 17



### MR. BAUMAN: Okay, I think 18



### there's a hole there, yes. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: You picked the 20



### one hole, you did. You got it. 21



### So, slide 24 is meant to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### distinguish the difference between open and 1



### closed. So, regardless of whether

-- if you 2



### ship the unit integrated with doors, or if 3



### you ship them in a separate box as add

- on 4



### doors it's a closed unit. You need to 5



### certify it, you need to test it, you need to 6



### be compliant with the closed standards. 7



### What she hasn't gotten to yet, 8



### slide 26, the draw ers, when she gets there

-- 9



### MS. WIDDER: Yes, we'll get 10



### there. 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG:

-- we're equating 12



### drawers with doors. So it's like a singular 13



### unit. You wouldn't necessarily do them both. 14



### But she'll get there. 15



### MS. WIDDER: Yes, we'll get 16



### there. 17



### MS . ARMSTRONG: Twenty

- four is 18



### open versus closed. 19



### MR. BAUMAN: Okay, thanks for 20



### clarification. 21



### MS. ARMSTRONG: The Department is 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### aware that some people are putting doors in a 1



### separate box and saying, you know, these 2



### aren't closed cases. And in the Depa rtment's 3



### eyes those are closed cases. 4



### MS. WIDDER: Okay, so that's a 5



### pretty clear issue. If there's no other 6



### comments we'll move onto clearly the most 7



### interesting issue which has to do with 8



### drawers versus doors. 9



### So, DOE interprets the term 10



### "door" to m ean any movable component of the 11



### commercial refrigeration unit that when 12



### closed separates the interior refrigerated 13



### space from the ambient air which is what 14



### makes it closed, and when opened provides 15



### access to the refrigerated product inside the 16



### CRE unit wh ich is the intention of the door. 17



### By that definition DOE considers 18



### drawers to be doors for the purposes of 19



### compliance under DOE's regulatory program 20



### since a drawer would also meet both of those 21



### criteria. So compliance for equipment with 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### drawers is deter mined based on the standard 1



### level for the equipment class with doors as 2



### tested in accordance with DOE test 3



### procedures. 4



### So, in answer, like Ashley said, 5



### just reiterating a piece of equipment with 6



### opaque doors or opaque drawers would be in 7



### the same equipme nt class and subject to the 8



### same standard. 9



### If it was a clear door versus 10



### opaque drawers those equipment would be 11



### different because it would be transparent 12



### versus closed cases. 13



### MR. BROOKMAN: Massoud? 14



### MR. NESHAN: Yes, Neshan with 15



### Southern Store Fixtu res. 16



### Based on this definition the 17



### night curtain, it becomes a door then. 18



### Because any moving component is considered to 19



### be a door. And meets the definition of 20



### separating the refrigerated area from the 21



### outside and all that. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. WIDDER: Yes. 1



### MR. NESH AN: The night curtain 2



### becomes a door which is not accurate. 3



### MS. WIDDER: Well, and clearly 4



### not the intent. It is

-- definitely DOE's 5



### intent is a permanently affixed movable 6



### component. 7



### And that's a good comment, 8



### Massoud. We'll take that under 9



### consi deration. 10



### MR. HON: Unfortunately there are 11



### a lot

-- Charlie Hon

-- there are a lot of 12



### night curtains that are permanently affixed, 13



### factory

- installed. 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So we should say 15



### excluding night curtains and that would do 16



### it, right? 17



### MR. BROOK MAN: Are night curtains 18



### enough of a distinctive descriptor? 19



### MS. WIDDER: They're defined in 20



### our regulations. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. HON: I think it would be 1



### very clear then. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. 3



### Thank you. That was productive. 4



### MS. WI DDER: Yes, great. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Additional 6



### comments here before we move on? 7



### MS. WIDDER: We have a request 8



### for comment on the next slide so can I just 9



### get there? 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Please do. 11



### MS. WIDDER: All right, great. 12



### So, this is just

-- DOE re cognizes that 13



### probably some of this confusion came from the 14



### fact that "door" is not defined in our 15



### current regulations. 16



### And so, to clarify, DOE is 17



### proposing to establish this definition of 18



### "door" in 10 CFR 431.62. "Door" means a 19



### movable panel that sep arates the interior 20



### volume of a unit of commercial refrigeration 21



### equipment from the ambient environment, is 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### designed to facilitate access to the 1



### refrigerated space for the purposes of 2



### loading and unloading product, and is affixed 3



### such that it is not remova ble without the use 4



### of tools. This includes hinged doors, 5



### sliding doors and drawers. 6



### And as we just discussed on the 7



### previous slide we may add an explicit 8



### exclusion of night curtains. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. One way or 10



### the other. 11



### MS. WIDDER: So we do, we request 12



### comment on this proposed definition, and in 13



### particular, specifications that the term is 14



### inclusive of drawers. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: So, comments on 16



### this definition. No additional comments. 17



### MS. WIDDER: Okay. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Massoud. 19



### MR. N ESHAN: Yes, Neshan. One 20



### point of clarification. 21



### MS. WIDDER: Sure. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. NESHAN: A door means a 1



### movable panel part that meets all those three 2



### definitions? 3



### MS. WIDDER: Correct. 4



### MR. NESHAN: So if it only meets 5



### two of them it's not considered a doo r then, 6



### right? 7



### MS. WIDDER: Correct. 8



### MR. NESHAN: Okay, good. Thank 9



### you. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. 11



### MR. STARR: Just a question. 12



### Just kind of following up on what he said. 13



### So, if the drawer comes out it's not fixed 14



### then. Does that mean it's not a do or 15



### anymore? 16



### MS. WIDDER: Right. Well, that's 17



### a very good comment. That will be something 18



### we have to consider in establishing a final 19



### definition. 20



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon. A lot of 21



### doors

-- this is a very bad definition 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### because a lot of doors are lift

- off. You 1



### open the door, lift it off and take it off to 2



### clean it. They just were built so they just 3



### literally lift up. 4



### MS. WIDDER: So perhaps instead 5



### of number 3 we just establish the exclusion 6



### of night curtains and don't talk about how 7



### it's affixed. 8



### MR. HON: That's a bit of a 9



### loaded gun. 10



### MS. WIDDER: All right. Thank 11



### you for that. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, 13



### Charlie. Okay. Additional comments on the 14



### definition? Charlie? 15



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon. There's 16



### also some issues there because number 3 is so 17



### ambiguous because sliding doors slide out and 18



### can be removed the same way. So there would 19



### be a major ambiguity there as well. 20



### MS. WIDDER: Right. 21



### MR. HON: Drawers are the same 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### way. So number 3 is a disaster in every 1



### aspect. 2



### MS. WIDDER: All right. 3



### (Laughter) 4



### MS. WIDDER: We appreciate your 5



### comments. 6



### MR. HON: I could use every one 7



### of those to my advantage because every one of 8



### them would take them out of classification. 9



### MS. WIDDER: Okay. 10



### MR. HON: Because hinged doors 11



### can be lifted off, sliding doors, you just 12



### lift it up and pull them out, maintain your 13



### draw cord, and drawers quite often have a 14



### quick release pin and away you go. 15



### MS. WIDDER: So, if we ignore 16



### number 3

-- 17



### MR. HON: Number 3, every one of 18



### the categories would get y ou trouble. 19



### MS. WIDDER: Okay. So, but if we 20



### ignore number 3 and we pretend that that's 21



### not part of the definition, but would number 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### 1 and number 2 with the explicit exclusion of 1



### night curtains added be a sufficient 2



### definition? Or would you also find i ssue 3



### with that definition? 4



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the other 5



### option is to not have a definition at all. 6



### And so we did it for a reason. 7



### We felt there was a need for one and we were 8



### filling the need. But it sounds like it may 9



### be also causing more harm than good. We 10



### could leave it ambiguous and then it would be 11



### DOE's discretion. 12



### MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon 13



### again. The first sentence in number 3 is the 14



### problem. Affixed such that it is not 15



### removable without the use of tools, that's 16



### the problem. Beca use all those

-- there are 17



### samples of every one of those that have 18



### releases on them or something where you don't 19



### need a tool other than your index finger to 20



### remove them. That's where the problem comes 21



### in. They all would fit the standard and 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### should fit th e standard as a hinged door, a 1



### sliding door, or drawers. But the use of 2



### tools is a problem. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, when 4



### you go to write your comments I think we have 5



### all heard that number 3 should just be 6



### scrapped altogether regardless of whether w e 7



### decide to

-- if we decide to ultimately adopt 8



### a definition. 9



### But when you go to write your 10



### comments, if you do end up writing additional 11



### comments, if you could think about the idea, 12



### the premise here is that we were trying to 13



### make clear that a door in DO E's reg is not 14



### just, you know, it's a hinged door, it's a 15



### sliding door, it is drawers. It is all these 16



### things. It's not just, you know. So, is 17



### there a better way to do this? So I ask for 18



### your feedback on that. Okay? 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We have a 20



### c omment via the web from Joe Sanders, or a 21



### question, in fact. How does it affect the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### cabinet volume calculation versus drawers? 1



### And I think we're getting into this later. 2



### Ashley? 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: We're going to 4



### get into the TDA calculation later. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So Joe, hang 6



### on with that question and we'll try and 7



### address that. Jeff? 8



### MR. BAUMAN: I'll just say that 9



### will be volume calculation not TDA

-- 10



### MS. WIDDER: Right. 11



### MR. BAUMAN: If it's not a glass 12



### -- unless you have a glass drawer so mewhere. 13



### MS. WIDDER: Right. And I think 14



### that the clarification there is that the 15



### volume calculation for a drawered unit and a 16



### doored unit would be the same. 17



### MR. BAUMAN: And I

-- I only 18



### speak for Jeff but I think there would be 19



### questions about with a drawer unit you have 20



### I'll say fixed components inside which in 21



### some of the ways volume are calculated there 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### may be considerations of not considering 1



### those part of the volume of the cabinet of a 2



### drawer unit. 3



### MS. WIDDER: And Joe or anyone 4



### else is of cour se welcome to submit comments 5



### on that. 6



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I'm not as 7



### familiar with how you would actually

-- I've 8



### never tried to take the volume calculation of 9



### a drawered unit. But I've done it for

-- my 10



### understanding is it's similar to residential 11



### and I've done it plenty of times for 12



### residential and there are plenty of

-- in the 13



### HRF document it pretty much will take care of 14



### it. At least that's my understanding. You 15



### don't believe it will? Okay, so then we need 16



### to deal with it. 17



### MR. BAUMAN: I'm not familiar but 18



### I think there would be considerations too for 19



### pan capacity. I would think of it as a good 20



### way to do that would be considering pan 21



### capacity of the unit and how much can you put 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### in the drawers. 1



### You know, you might have a 2



### different numbers y ou're using for what the 3



### allowable energy is and such, but if you talk 4



### about the volume of a refrigerator is 5



### supposed to be how much can the refrigerator 6



### hold. 7



### If you're talking about a drawer 8



### unit it's how much product can you put in 9



### that. How much p roduct space do you have. 10



### I'm not saying

-- we'll cover that in our 11



### comments or whatever. You don't need to 12



### answer now. But I'm just saying those are 13



### the types of things that may be. 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean when 15



### you cover in your comments I ask

-- if you're 16



### talking about how much the drawer can hold, I 17



### mean my distinction is going to

-- what's the 18



### difference between how much a drawer can hold 19



### and what the refrigerated space is? Is there 20



### a difference? 21



### MR. BAUMAN: Yes. Yes and we'll 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### cover
-- 1



### M S. ARMSTRONG: And what should 2



### be accounted for. And so that's where

-- I 3



### mean, you know. 4



### MR. BAUMAN: Now, my actual 5



### comment was agreeing with Ashley. Surprise. 6



### (Laughter) 7



### MR. BAUMAN: I actually, I think 8



### the idea, and I don't know what this would do 9



### to your having to modify your documents, but 10



### I think

-- I want to think I understand why 11



### you're covering doors as hinged doors, 12



### sliding doors and drawers, but I think to a 13



### layman or even anybody reading it, you read 14



### doors, you're thinking doors. Versu s going 15



### into where the standards say doors and saying 16



### doors are drawers. 17



### You know, I think you can cover

- 18



### - you can say doors cover hinged doors and 19



### sliding doors. I think saying a drawer is a 20



### door is not intuitive and would be more 21



### confusing for peop le who aren't necessarily 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### reading through the 350 pages of definitions 1



### and things. 2



### MS. WIDDER: Right. In response 3



### to that a little bit. And Charlie, this 4



### might be what you were going to say. 5



### It's difficult for the Department 6



### of Energy to change th e referenced test 7



### procedure which is ASHRAE 72

- 2005 unless we 8



### were to incorporate all the relevant 9



### provisions into the CFR directly, to change 10



### every instance of door to door plus drawer, 11



### or door and drawer. 12



### However, there's a draft, a 13



### proposed draft of A SHRAE 72

- 20 00

-- maybe 14



### it'll be 14 by the time it's done

-- that 15



### does just that. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional 17



### comments here? Okay. 18



### MS. WIDDER: Okay. Related to 19



### closed refrigerators, doors and drawers, DOE 20



### also in reviewing the definitions of 21



### app lication of the test procedure realized 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### that there's not a clear differentiation or 1



### definition for differentiating closed cases 2



### from

-- or closed solid cases from closed 3



### transparent cases and determining 4



### transparency of a door or material. 5



### Much of this currently seems up 6



### to the manufacturer. There's been some 7



### recent AHRI interpretations related to 8



### determining transparency. And also in 9



### Appendix D there's a small definition of 10



### transparency that references greater than 65 11



### percent light transmittance. 12



### And that's currently part of the 13



### DOE test procedure. However, it's not 14



### explicitly codified. So, to clarify the test 15



### procedure DOE prefers a quantifiable method 16



### for determining light transmittance which is 17



### currently not established in the DOE test 18



### procedu re or any of its reference documents. 19



### DOE proposes to use an ASTM 20



### method for determining the

-- a test method 21



### for determining solar transmittance of sheet 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### materials using sunlight. 1



### This is typically applied to 2



### fenestration products but in reviewing the 3



### document DOE finds that the most broadly 4



### applicable document to determining light 5



### transmittance through intended

- to

- be

6



### transparent materials, it's the basis for 7



### other industry standard test methods that are 8



### applied to fenestration products typically. 9



### To incorporate this into the CFR 10



### DOE is proposing a definition of 11



### "transparent" as follows. "Transparent" 12



### means greater than or equal to 65 percent 13



### light transmittance as determined in 14



### accordance with ASTM Standard E1084

- 86(2009). 15

16



### And the definition of the 17



### standard at normal incidence which is 18



### directly perpendicular to the door. And a 19



### lot of people might be thinking now do we 20



### have to apply this definition to every door 21



### that we sell and the answer is no. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### This definition will be applied 1



### to determin e transparency when there may be 2



### an issue. For example, if the Department 3



### were to test a case and wanted to determine 4



### whether or not a door was transparent because 5



### there was some ambiguity, or if there was 6



### some coverings of opaque material this test 7



### proce dure could be applied to determine 8



### transparent material from opaque material. 9



### But it is not

-- equipment is not 10



### required to be tested to this standard in 11



### order to be incorporated into a piece of 12



### commercial refrigeration equipment. It's 13



### basically like a tiebreaker. And Ashley 14



### might have something to add to that. 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't. 16



### MS. WIDDER: Okay. 17



### MR. BAUMAN: Well, this is Jeff 18



### Bauman from National. Will that be

-- what 19



### you just said, Sarah, will that be included 20



### in the documentation or whatever with the 21



### definition that you won't have to test

-- do 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### a test and clarify this? It will only be

-- 1



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I've got it. So, 2



### that's the reason for putting it in the 3



### definition. You have fair warning how we 4



### will determine if there's an issue with 5



### whether or not something is transparent or 6



### not. 7



### If you want to use it, you may, 8



### but it's not required as part of the test 9



### procedure. Right? But yes. 10



### MR. BAUMAN: Understood. And I 11



### understand that now because I'm sitting 12



### across the table and see the smiling face and 13



### explanations that I appreciate. But if 14



### you're going back to the final NOPR or the 15



### final notice, will that be

-- 16



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll hand you the 17



### transcript and you can hand it back to me if 18



### I ever tell you something differ ent. 19



### MR. BAUMAN: Okay. 20



### MS. ARMSTRONG: And we'll

-- I 21



### mean, we'll

-- I don't know that we'll 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### clarify it

-- 1



### MR. BAUMAN: I'm not worried for 2



### myself, for other people that are referenced. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I don't 4



### know how we'll clarify it, but we'll try to 5



### make that as clear as possible. 6



### MS. WIDDER: Well, and if you 7



### also look at the reg text that

-- if you're 8



### going to submit written comments, if you just 9



### look at the regulatory text that's at the 10



### back of the NOPR document there's

-- the 11



### defini tion is established there. 12



### And if you had recommendations 13



### about incorporating that, or language that 14



### could be incorporated to indicate its

-- the 15



### optional nature of the requirement we would 16



### welcome those comments. 17



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 18



### Manufact uring. I have some real serious 19



### questions about this because you effectively, 20



### if it's below 65 percent light transmittance 21



### therefore it becomes a solid door. Thereby 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### requiring less energy

-- changes the energy 1



### allowance a great deal. 2



### The majority of th e losses 3



### through transparent doors are because of the 4



### difference in insulation capacities on a 5



### glass door versus a solid door. There's not 6



### the fenestration issues that are that severe 7



### unless you happen to put it right in direct 8



### sunlight. 9



### So this could be a real stickler 10



### because if we're trying to do what we do 11



### which is save energy we're starting to put 12



### tinting into glass. And if we get too much 13



### tint on a piece of glass theoretically we 14



### could discover that we had 64 percent at a 15



### light transmittance at a certain

-- I am 16



### assuming this is a fairly broad spectral 17



### range. 18



### But if we drop to 64 percent 19



### light transmittance it suddenly falls under 20



### solid door which is more stringent. I'm not 21



### sure this is a very good idea at 65 percent. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think you 1



### understand the intent. Is there a better 2



### way ? 3



### You know, I think what we were 4



### trying to do is saying how do you determine 5



### if something is transparent or not. And this 6



### is one way, a definitive way, one could argue 7



### not a descriptive way. I m ean it is a test. 8



### You can tell one way or the other. 9



### But I get your point, especially 10



### with the standards rule going on. 11



### MR. HON: Right. This is Charlie 12



### Hon again. Sixty

- five percent may be the 13



### number that I'm concerned about. 14



### Because we run som e pretty dark 15



### shading into some wine cooling type designs. 16



### And it may not be 65 percent transmittance, 17



### but it's still performing as a glass door. 18



### The objective is to see through it. 19



### And it may be that we may want to 20



### -- I'm going to go back and do som e testing 21



### to see if that 65 percent number is 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### realistic. Or it may need to be 45 or 50 1



### percent. But I think that 50 may be a number 2



### that's workable. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 4



### Massoud? 5



### MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 6



### Store Fixtures. I also have an issue with 7



### this. When you have a self

- serve counter 8



### display case a lot of times you put a mirror 9



### finish one way, or see

- through mirror finish 10



### sliding doors in the back. That cuts down on 11



### the obviously how transparent the glass is. 12



### That's by the custo mer of course. How would 13



### that be treated? 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: In the back of the 15



### cabinet? 16



### MR. NESHAN: In the back of the 17



### cabinet, correct. I mean, all of a sudden 18



### you end up with a solid door in the back? 19



### That's

-- 20



### MS. WIDDER: I don't

-- oh, so 21



### there 's glass on the back of the cabinet but 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### it's mirrored? 1



### MR. NESHAN: One

- way, yes. You 2



### can see from the back but not, you know, 3



### there is coating on

-- 4



### MS. WIDDER: So, yes. This would 5



### be normal incidence from the exterior of the 6



### case. We'll have to c larify that. So if 7



### you're able to see through the glass and it 8



### meets the criteria in the direction, the 9



### intended direction of viewing, we'll have to 10



### work on that definition. So if you have 11



### suggestions please help. Or please submit 12



### them. 13



### But in the int ended direction of 14



### viewing if it meets the definition I think 15



### that would be the intent. If it's not 16



### optically transparent from both directions 17



### that it would still be glass. Transparent. 18



### MR. WEBER: Collin Weber from 19



### Navigant. Just to pile onto that. I don't 20



### think the service over counter definition as 21



### it was proposed or as it was included in the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### act last fall specifies a solid or 1



### transparent door at any point so I don't 2



### think there would be a conflict. 3



### MR. NESHAN: Neshan again. It 4



### may not be inclu ded. However, when you're 5



### looking at a door, I mean based on the 6



### definition you have

-- that case has doors on 7



### it. When we are calculating the TDA, the 8



### clear glass on the back falls as part of TDA. 9



### If it's not all of a sudden transparent 10



### anymore impacts it overall TDA and that's 11



### what the point is. 12



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon. There are 13



### units in the industry which are not service 14



### over counter at all. They're just pass

15



### through units, double

- doored, or they

-- the 16



### service people behind the unit can see what's 17



### in the unit. And they have a glass 18



### reflective panel on it which is kind of in 19



### the flower cases. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Very 21



### helpful, very constructive additional 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### comments here before we move on. So do write 1



### really descriptive comments here to help the 2



### Department. 3



### MS. WIDDER: Thank you. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 5



### MS. WIDDER: Similarly to this 6



### definition of "transparent" DOE determined 7



### that there are not clear definitions in the 8



### CFR to apply that definition of

-- that 9



### proposed definition of "trans parent" to 10



### closed solid cases and closed transparent 11



### cases, or cases with solid doors versus 12



### transparent doors. 13



### DOE determined to define these 14



### terms with respect to the equipment families 15



### that DOE uses to apply standards which is the 16



### closed solid and clo sed transparent 17



### terminology. 18



### And to clarify this, DOE proposes 19



### to establish these two new definitions in the 20



### CFR , closed solid and closed transparent, as 21



### follows. Closed solid means equipment with 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### doors and in which more than 25 percent of 1



### the outer s ervice area of all doors on a unit 2



### is not transparent, applying the proposed 3



### definition of "transparent" that we just saw. 4

5



### Closed transparent means 6



### equipment with doors and in which 75 percent 7



### or more of the outer service area of all 8



### doors on a unit is transparent. 9



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon. My 10



### concern on these definitions is specifically 11



### there's a series of units that are out there. 12



### Number 1 is that they're pass

- through units. 13



### Quite often solid doored on one, glass 14



### doored on the other. 15



### Yet techni cally the glass doors 16



### on the front may only have some trim around 17



### them which technically drops them below 50 18



### percent that way because the solid doors on 19



### the back and the partial solidness of the 20



### front doors would drop you below 50 percent. 21



### And pass

- throug h units are notoriously bad 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### because you still have heat loss, the 1



### additional door gaskets and things like that. 2



### But then you would immediately turn all 3



### those into solid units which is additional 4



### requirements on loading. 5



### So, I would suggest that it wou ld 6



### not say all units. It would say

-- if you're 7



### going to do the 75 percent rule which 8



### unfortunately there is

-- I'll get into the 9



### second argument in a second, but I would say 10



### whatever percentage we end up with on all 11



### units on one side of the unit. 12



### Bec ause pass
- through units are 13



### usually never glass in glass. That just 14



### doesn't happen. But yet they're still every 15



### bit as transparent and the heat loss issues 16



### exist off the glass doors as they do off the 17



### others. 18



### You also have a second set of 19



### issues on hal f doors quite often which is the 20



### top half of a set of doors is glass and the 21



### bottom half is solid. And those can be 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### problematic if we start classifying 1



### everything into 75 or more glass rather than 2



### 50 percent. 3

4



### MS. WIDDER: So, just to clarify, 5



### you t hink 50 percent would be a better number 6



### here? 7



### MR. HON: It depends on what

-- 8



### number 1 is 50 percent on pass

- through units 9



### is

-- even 50 percent you probably have to 10



### drop to 45 because your technical definition 11



### was the frame around the door making it no t

- 12



### - you're actually losing part of it. So 13



### about 45 percent on pass

- throughs. And if 14



### you have half and half doors, half glass, 15



### half solid, how do you define that? That's 16



### open for the Department to figure out what 17



### they want to do there. Because there's ratio 18



### differences there. 19



### MS. WIDDER: Right. So the one 20



### issue that

-- and I understand the difference 21



### in stringency of standards. But I would also 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### encourage everyone here and those on the 1



### webinar to think about in submission of their 2



### comments is the ap plication of the standards. 3



### So for those cases you're 4



### describing, Charlie, their standard is still 5



### based on total display area. And as that 6



### total display area, for example, is 45 7



### percent of the doors that's also going to 8



### have an impact on the standard t hey have to 9



### meet. 10



### MR. HON: You have a problem 11



### there because if you're talking self

12



### contained equipment it has nothing to do with 13



### total display area. It's all internal 14



### volume. 15



### MS. WIDDER: For self

- contained. 16



### Yes. 17



### MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman 18



### f rom National. Agree with Charlie on both 19



### points. And again, as we're designing, if 20



### you're designing like Charlie's example the 21



### door that's got

-- I'll say most units, 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### probably 50/50 is the cutoff when you design 1



### or you'll upsize the refrigeration system 2



### with the

-- type of the system. You're 3



### reflecting where you would design that 4



### product at, if it's got glass doors in the 5



### front or solid on the back, where a lot of 6



### units if it's got a glass on one door, the 7



### right's glass and the other's left, about 8



### that 5 0 percent is where you're going to cut 9



### off and say you need to upsize that unit if 10



### it needs to be done. So I think 50/50, 11



### somewhere in there. 12



### Going on with that I think 13



### Charlie's point about the percent, the way 14



### the definition is with the surface area o f 15



### the door. I don't know what better 16



### definition would be and I'd think about that. 17

18



### But it's somewhere where you can 19



### account for 50 percent of the doors excluding 20



### the frame because one guy could have a wider 21



### frame. Then you get into what your area and 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### what the definition of a glass door versus a 1



### solid door is. And it may be better to go in 2



### that direction rather than talking about the 3



### specific area of the door, 50 percent of the 4



### doors are

-- 50 percent of the area of doors 5



### are glass or solid. So, I'll think about 6



### that. 7



### But I think trying to get away 8



### from considering the border of the door non

9



### transparent which the way this is written it 10



### would needs to be done. And I agree again 11



### that a 50/50 split, somewhere in that area, 12



### would be more applicable wit h how products 13



### are designed. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 15



### Additional comments here? Charlie? 16



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon. One thing 17



### we may want to add into the definition, let 18



### the Department just look at it is there is a 19



### difference between the size of a door and the 20



### size of a door opening. 21



### A door opening is usually much 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### smaller than the door itself because you have 1



### your gasket material and everything else 2



### around it to keep it. So we may want to look 3



### at that very carefully and possibly consider 4



### rati o using the door opening size rather than 5



### the door frame size. Because the front 6



### surface of the door could be very, very large 7



### with a 3

- or 4

- inch frame around it for 8



### support reasons. But it really doesn't do 9



### you any good because the door opening on the 10



### actual case itself may be substantially 11



### smaller. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13



### MS. WIDDER: Thank you for those 14



### comments. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Anything else 16



### here? Nothing additional. 17



### MS. WIDDER: Okay. This is sort 18



### of changing gears a little bit from the 19



### closed transparent versus solid definitions. 20



### But another area that the 21



### Department believes needs clarification in 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### their definitions and scope of commercial 1



### refrigeration equipment is the application of 2



### standards for hybrid equipment versus non

3



### hybrid commerci al refrigerator

- freezers. 4



### DOE's regulations obviously 5



### currently cover commercial hybrid 6



### refrigerators, freezers and refrigerator

7



### freezers and non

- hybrid commercial 8



### refrigerators, freezers and refrigerator

9



### freezers. 10



### There appears to be some 11



### confusion re garding the differentiation of 12



### hybrid from non

- hybrid equipment. And to 13



### clarify this the Department is proposing 14



### changing the definition of commercial hybrid 15



### refrigerator, freezer, refrigerator

- freezer 16



### which is currently defined at 10 CFR 431.62 17



### and break ing it into two definitions, a 18



### commercial hybrid definition to just specify 19



### what is commercial equipment and then 20



### explicitly defining refrigerator, freezer and 21



### refrigerator

- freezer. And I've got a slide 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### that sort of clarifies all this. 1



### First we're goin g to talk about 2



### the definitions and then there will be a 3



### slide that sort of hopefully helps out all 4



### these confused looks in the room. 5



### So, the definitions that the 6



### Department is proposing in addition to 7



### removing the current definition of commercial 8



### hybr id refrigerator, freezer or refrigerator

9



### freezer are "commercial hybrid" means a unit 10



### of commercial refrigeration equipment 11



### consisting of two or more refrigerated 12



### compartments that are in two or more 13



### different equipment families as defined at 10 14



### CFR 431.66 which is where all those 15



### standards, the standard table is, and which 16



### is sold as a single unit. So that would be 17



### two compartments in the same piece of CRE 18



### that are from different equipment families. 19



### A commercial refrigerator

- freezer 20



### non
- hybrid is a unit of commercial 21



### refrigeration equipment consisting of two or 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### more refrigerated compartments where at least 1



### one refrigerated component is capable of 2



### operating at or above 32 degrees Fahrenheit, 3



### meaning meeting the definition of 4



### refrigerator, and another comp onent is 5



### capable of operating below 32 degrees 6



### Fahrenheit, meeting the definition of 7



### freezer. 8



### So, to bring all these together 9



### we've got examples. On the very left

- hand 10



### side we have a commercial refrigerator

11



### freezer that meets the new definition of 12



### comme rcial refrigerator

- freezer that the 13



### Department is proposing. 14



### You can see it's one unit. It 15



### has two transparent doors so it's in the same 16



### equipment family, vertical closed 17



### transparent. One component is at zero 18



### degrees Fahrenheit and one is at 38 degre es 19



### Fahrenheit. Or it could be slightly 20



### different temperatures but one meets the 21



### freezer temperature range and one meets the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### refrigerator temperature range. But it does 1



### not meet the hybrid definition because 2



### they're both vertical closed transparent. 3



### Com mercial hybrid refrigerator is 4



### a unit where both of the components are the 5



### same temperature class, but are in different 6



### equipment families. So in this example the 7



### one on the left is glass. It's a vertical 8



### closed transparent refrigerator. 9



### And the one on the right that's 10



### blue is

-- a different color blue is meant to 11



### indicate a solid door. It's vertical closed 12



### solid in this example. So two equipment 13



### families, vertical closed transparent and 14



### vertical closed solid, but the same 15



### temperature classes. So t hat would meet the 16



### definition of commercial hybrid refrigerator, 17



### meeting the commercial hybrid definition and 18



### the refrigerator definition, but not the 19



### commercial refrigerator

- freezer definition. 20



### And on the right

- hand side now we 21



### meet both commercial hybr id and commercial 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### refrigerator

- freezer definitions. We have 1



### two different components. One which has a 2



### glass door and is at zero degrees Fahrenheit 3



### meets freezer definition, and one has a solid 4



### door, vertical closed solid, and is at the 5



### refrigerator tempe rature. So it meets both 6



### the definition of commercial refrigerator

7



### freezer and commercial hybrid. 8



### And hopefully that clears things 9



### up a little bit. We're going to establish 10



### all these definitions in the CFR and DOE 11



### requests comment on the clarity and 12



### su fficiency of these definitions for 13



### commercial hybrid and commercial 14



### refrigerator

- freezer. 15



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 16



### Manufacturing. Your definition of a model 17



### with two components, middle section there, 18



### two components greater than 32 degrees. 19



### Looks lik e one has a solid door, one has a 20



### glass door. How do you define two 21



### components? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. WIDDER: They would be

-- the 1



### two refrigerated spaces would be physically 2



### separated. Not necessarily thermally 3



### isolated, but physically separated. So 4



### they're

-- where there's a black line there 5



### would be a solid wall separating the 6



### refrigerated compartments. Perhaps that's 7



### not common. 8



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon. More 9



### common is

-- this is an unusual circumstance. 10



### I'm still confused by this because why can't 11



### -- there's als o no discussion up there of 12



### freezer

- freezer. 13



### MS. WIDDER: Well, freezer

14



### freezer would apply same as this center 15



### column except for they would both be zero 16



### degrees. But physically separated. 17



### If they're not physically 18



### separated

-- maybe this will help. If 19



### they're not physically separated compartments 20



### they

-- both doors which are a different type 21



### open to the same compartment. This is just a 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### commercial refrigerator and you would apply 1



### the definitions of transparent door

-- closed 2



### transparent and closed solid and transparency 3



### that we've proposed previously to determine 4



### its equipment classification. So in our 5



### current definition if this doesn't have any 6



### other doors this would be a transparent

-- 7



### this would be a solid unit. 8



### MR. HON: I am totally confused

. 9



### I'm sorry. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: This, the middle 11



### example, Charlie, that's not something you 12



### see in practice? 13



### MR. HON: There are

-- there are 14



### becoming popular dual temps but there's 15



### really

-- the most common use of this is wine 16



### coolers where you have hal f the compartment's 17



### for white wine and half for red wine. And 18



### there's usually about a 10 degree difference 19



### in storage temperatures. But they would 20



### definitely be above the 32 degree Fahrenheit 21



### rule. But they do not necessarily have a 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### solid separator betw een the two, but more of 1



### a solid shelf between the two so that you 2



### limit the air flow crossover. That's what 3



### I'm concerned about. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Solid shelf. It's 5



### not a vertical? 6



### MR. HON: Well, you can

-- how do 7



### you define it? It doesn't say they'r e 8



### vertically separated on any of the 9



### definitions above. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Right. I see, 11



### right. 12



### MR. HON: Horizontal separation 13



### would happen more commonly. And that's what 14



### I'm looking at here is that there's a 15



### possibility because it's not defined as a 16



### ve rtical separation. 17



### And in the item up there it's 18



### greater than 32 degrees which may or may not 19



### be the case. But defining a separation. 20



### Because most shelves in commercial 21



### refrigeration are porous, whether they be 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### wire shelf racking or different things, but 1



### not all of them are. And one of the ways you 2



### can separate and differentiate temperature 3



### gaps is by having a solid shelf. 4



### MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson, 5



### Hussman n . Sarah, I think that the 6



### definitions that you put forth are relatively 7



### clear. 8



### One thin g that's not clear to us 9



### is how would DOE handle a piece of hybrid 10



### equipment? Let's just say it's a hybrid 11



### refrigerator that contains at least one 12



### compartment that's not covered by the DOE 13



### test procedure. 14



### So, for example, I have half of a 15



### cabinet that' s a service over counter and 16



### half of that same cabinet, it's a complete 17



### unit, is a salad bar. And keep in mind that 18



### this could be a self

- contained cabinet with 19



### one unit. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley. 21



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Good question. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### It meets the definitions, let's put it that 1



### way. 2



### So I'm going to go with my 3



### preliminary off

- the

- cuff answer. We will 4



### officially I guess think about this a little 5



### more. 6



### My initial response would be if 7



### it meets the definition, which that would, it 8



### would be subject to our test pr ocedure 9



### provisions and our standards for the service 10



### over the counter. 11



### Now, that being said, if there's 12



### an issue because part of it's not like the 13



### salad table or the buffet table or whatever 14



### is not covered. So let's say you believe 15



### that the measurement s coming out of the test 16



### procedure would be representative, you need 17



### to get a waiver. Does that make sense? 18



### So in other words, if we're 19



### making you account for the entire 20



### refrigeration system but you believe that's 21



### not representative of its use because only 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### part of it is covered you need to apply for a 1



### waiver and you need to explain why and how 2



### you would do it. That's my best off

- the

- cuff 3



### answer. 4



### MR. ANDERSON: Yes, I understand. 5



### So, if it were a remote refrigerator and you 6



### could separate the two ci rcuits

-- 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: That would be 8



### easier. 9



### MR. ANDERSON:

-- so to say we 10



### would assume that the service over counter 11



### portion would be tested, and that energy 12



### counted, and the other portion would kind of 13



### be

-- 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I would say don't 15



### as sume anything. If it specifically doesn't 16



### tell you to do that in the test procedure, 17



### come to us and get that. 18



### MR. ANDERSON: Okay, thank you. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Jeff. 20



### MR. BAUMAN: I have confusion I 21



### guess similar to Charlie's. And to me what I 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### thi nk may be missing here is whether a unit 1



### has one refrigeration system, one cooling 2



### system and it could share two separate 3



### cooling, two evaporator coils, or whether 4



### it's sharing air between the two spaces. 5



### Because there's some units that could run, 6



### like Ch arlie mentioned the wine coolers that 7



### will run at a little bit different 8



### temperatures and they'll share air between 9



### the two compartments. They have one 10



### evaporator. My interpretation of what I'm 11



### reading here is that type of thing would be 12



### more of a hybrid

. If you have a unit 13



### that's

-- again, we build commercial 14



### refrigerator

-- refrigerator refrigerators 15



### that are two temperatures but they're 16



### developed just like a dual temp and they have 17



### two refrigeration systems, insulated walls 18



### between the two. 19



### So t o me that would be more 20



### consideration for the definition is whether 21



### they have a shared refrigeration system or 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### two separate systems. 1



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: We have two 3



### questions that are coming from participants 4



### on the web. Ron Shebik as ks “For hybrids, do 5



### they have to share the same refrigeration 6



### system or unique systems? ” 7



### MS. WIDDER: As the definitions 8



### are currently proposed, no, they don't need

- 9



### - it can be either. These definitions apply 10



### whether there are separate refrigeration 11



### sy stems or the same refrigeration system. 12



### We just received comments on 13



### perhaps considering that differentiation in 14



### addition to the proposed definitions here. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And Joe 16



### Sanders writes “T he middle example is 17



### currently purchased by McD onald's. ” No 18



### physical separation exists between the 19



### interiors except for a wire shelf. 20



### MS. WIDDER: I wouldn't

-- not 21



### having physically seen the unit. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: It's a 1



### refrigerator. 2



### MS. WIDDER: Right. I would not 3



### think that it would be a h ybrid refrigerator 4



### since they share the same refrigerated 5



### compartment and they're not physically 6



### separated. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: And they're the 8



### same temperature. 9



### MS. WIDDER: And they're the same 10



### temperature. So they would

-- they would 11



### actually not be o n this slide. They would be 12



### a commercial refrigerator. 13



### But I've not seen the wire shelf 14



### so I'm just going to assume. 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Let me just read 16



### this one because it's going to require some 17



### follow

- up. 18



### So Joe also asked if DOE could 19



### publish the formula used to calculate maximum 20



### daily energy consumption for each example. 21



### Okay, but I'm not exactly sure 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### what you're asking so I prefer that we just 1



### follow up offline. I mean, I'm happy to give 2



### you whatever additional information that we 3



### can to he lp clarify this, but I can't answer 4



### the question because I don't quite understand 5



### it. 6



### So I'm going to move to Charlie. 7



### But Joe, we can follow up separately. You 8



### know how to reach me. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie. 10



### MR. HON: Well, I think that the 11



### -- I think the middle classification would be 12



### more clear if people looked at it. 13



### Because if you take a service 14



### over counter unit, quite often they have a 15



### lower level refrigeration which would be 16



### closed door type unit down below them. And 17



### they're all ope rating at the same conditions, 18



### but quite often a butcher shop doesn't want 19



### to put all of his meat out in the same 20



### conditions under the lights. So he puts one 21



### piece of meat out and then once it's sliced 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### up he'll go and pull another piece from down 1



### below. And I'm assuming that's basically 2



### what the concept of a commercial hybrid is 3



### about. 4



### MS. WIDDER: Correct. That's a 5



### good example. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff? 7



### MR. BAUMAN: And there are some 8



### refrigerators that are built with

-- two

- door 9



### units with air flow d own the middle and it's 10



### got panels with louvers or openings in it to 11



### distribute air to both sides. 12



### Those have never been as far as I 13



### know considered as

-- I've never considered 14



### that a hybrid. I don't know anybody

-- maybe 15



### other people. But it's just a single 16



### temperature. 17



### Both have doors but there's 18



### panels in the middle because for air flow 19



### reasons, for customer reasons or whatever 20



### that's how you want the air flow going. But 21



### that would be considered a hybrid? It's just 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### a single temperature. 1



### MS. WIDDER: If it's physically 2



### separated with a wall which is what I'm 3



### understanding, yes, that would be a hybrid 4



### unit. 5



### MR. BAUMAN: Okay. We'll have a 6



### lot of comment about that. 7



### MS. WIDDER: Okay. 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: There may be a 9



### better way to do this, and it may be that it 10



### needs to be thermally isolated components or 11



### something

-- maybe that's where you were 12



### drawing your line. So, think about that in 13



### your comments. It doesn't have to be this 14



### way. 15



### We get a lot of questions about 16



### this generally. So we're trying to come up 17



### with a way to address them that provides 18



### guidance to everyone. 19



### I can tell you I probably get 20



### several a week alone just on hybrids. And 21



### especially if you guys were to look

-- I 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### don't know how many of you have tried to look 1



### online , but if you look at the hybrid 2



### templates for certification right now that 3



### are online, just creating those was a very 4



### difficult task, let alone trying to use them. 5



### So I can understand where you're coming 6



### from. 7



### So what we're trying to do is 8



### simplify this . We have standards on the 9



### books for hybrid. It's very clear how you 10



### calculate those. It's just a matter of 11



### people are saying, well, I can't tell if my 12



### unit's a hybrid. 13



### How do I tell that? So, where 14



### should DOE draw the line? Should it be a 15



### thermal ly isolated component

-- or 16



### compartment. I'm sorry, not component, 17



### compartment. 18



### Or if it's not and it's just a 19



### wall and you do have some sharing which is 20



### typical of residential, you know, is that 21



### something that you consider one compartment, 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### a single c ompartment? Or what if you have 1



### some sharing but they're at different 2



### temperatures? What do you do? So, that's 3



### where we're going. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Steven. 5



### MR. KING: Yes, Steve King with 6



### Royston LLC. Back to the Hussman n comment. 7



### It's basically li ke in a salad 8



### bar situation. It's a percentage ratio how 9



### much would be salad bar, then how much would 10



### be basically considered refrigerated space. 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I get that 12



### part. That's what you do today. That's not 13



### in our regs. It is for the det ermination of 14



### which standard applies. It's not necessarily 15



### in our regs for determining volumes and other 16



### things that you need. 17



### So that's where we're going here. 18



### We're trying to figure out what do you guys 19



### do today to determine. And I'm not sure you 20



### all do it the same way based on the questions 21



### I've gotten. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Neshan. 1



### MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 2



### Store Fixtures. In the middle configuration 3



### you put that they have to be from two

-- from 4



### different equipment families. 5



### MS. WIDDER: Corr ect. 6



### MR. NESHAN: Is that a 7



### requirement, or they can be same family? 8



### MS. WIDDER: In order to be a 9



### commercial hybrid unit they have to be from 10



### different equipment families. Two 11



### compartments from different equipment 12



### families. 13



### If they're not from diff erent 14



### equipment families

-- so, for example, in the 15



### center example if both of those were clear 16



### doors it would just be a commercial 17



### refrigerator. 18



### MR. NESHAN: Except, you know, 19



### for example, for a

-- whether it's a closed 20



### door or open display case there a re certain 21



### temperature requirements, 38 plus or minus 2. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### And then we have the lowest operating 1



### temperature equipment. They might be exactly 2



### the same type of equipment, but temperature 3



### requirements are different. So that would 4



### not be considered hybrid? 5



### MS. WIDDER: No, because those 6



### are subject to the same

-- they're not 7



### separate equipment families. Right? So, 8



### that would be more like our example over here 9



### on the right. 10



### MR. NESHAN: Hold on, hold on. 11



### What do you mean they are not the same? 12



### Physical ly they are not but temperature

- wise 13



### they're different. 14



### MS. WIDDER: Yes, but temperature 15



### does not differentiate equipment families. 16



### So

-- 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: You've got to use 18



### the microphone. We want this on the record. 19



### Please say your name. 20



### MR. SUHAR NO: Anwar Suharno from 21



### Royston LLC. If you have a dual temp unit on 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### a single compartment you can switch back and 1



### forth between low temp and medium temp. You 2



### will have different

-- 3



### MS. WIDDER: Yes, we're going to 4



### get to that one too. 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: That is not a 6



### hybrid. I can tell you that one. 7



### MS. WIDDER: Those are not 8



### hybrids. But those are also

-- so, like our 9



### example on the very left, that it's two 10



### compartments, both with glass doors that have 11



### different temperatures, that's not a hybrid 12



### uni t. 13



### The configuration of doors on the 14



### geometry of the unit is what determines 15



### equipment families. If you look at those

-- 16



### I wish I had a slide of this. There's a 17



### table in the CFR where you look up standards. 18



### It's in 431.66 and there's column headings

. 19



### And one of the headings is equipment family. 20



### And you'll

-- things like 21



### vertical closed transparent, semi

- vertical 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### closed transparent, solid, open. Those are 1



### the terms that are in that row and so those 2



### are the things, whether it's transparent, 3



### solid, or open. And it's geometry, 4



### horizontal, semi

- vertical, vertical are the 5



### things that determine equipment families. 6



### The temperatures are a separate 7



### differentiator, but they're not used to 8



### determine whether or not it's a hybrid. 9



### MR. NESHAN: Neshan agai n here, 10



### Southern Store Fixtures. But when you're 11



### testing the equipment one of the provisions 12



### of it is that we can test the case to lowest 13



### temperature that that case can operate at. 14



### MS. WIDDER: Right, so

-- 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: No, I disagree. 16



### So, if you cannot operate at the rating 17



### temperature required then you are required to 18



### test at the lowest temperature it's capable 19



### of operating only if you cannot meet the 20



### temperature in the regs. So, you just don't 21



### get to pick, you have to prove that you 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### cannot meet the rating temperatures in the 1



### reg, the integrated average temperatures in 2



### the regs. And if you cannot then it goes to 3



### the lowest. 4



### MR. NESHAN: Correct. No, I 5



### understand that. 6



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 7



### MR. NESHAN: But we have a floor 8



### display case. I will not be able to test 9



### that at 38 degrees. I will be testing it at 10



### 50 degrees. You see? 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: If that's the 12



### lowest it ever goes. 13



### MR. NESHAN: Correct. But then, 14



### however, they are from the same product 15



### family. But

-- 16



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Y ou're okay. 17



### MR. NESHAN:

-- according to this 18



### you are telling me that I cannot. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no, it's 20



### not. 21



### MS. WIDDER: No, you can still 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### rate that. 1



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's talk 2



### offline. Because that's not a hybrid. 3



### You're not talking ab out a hybrid here. 4



### MS. WIDDER: A lowest application 5



### product temperature case

-- 6



### MR. NESHAN: No, I understand. 7



### But they're combined in the same frame. 8



### There are two pieces. 9



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I get it. I get 10



### it. We can go from there. 11



### MS. WIDDER: So we welcome 12



### comments on that. For that case you would 13



### test

-- okay, we'll just keep going. 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the first 15



### example, it's not the second. It's two 16



### different rating temperatures. It's not a 17



### hybrid. So you're going with

-- 18



### MS. WIDDE R: You'd go 38 and 50. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, you're going 20



### a side that's at one rating temperature and a 21



### side that's at 50. That's the difference 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### there. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: The one on the 2



### left. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it's his

-- 4



### it's looking at it

-- it de pends. 5



### MS. WIDDER: On the left but 6



### different numbers. 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 8



### MS. WIDDER: Okay? 9



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So it allows you 10



### to do what you're describing, it's just not 11



### hybrid that allows you to do what you're 12



### describing. Okay? 13



### MR. BROOKMA N: Okay? Additional 14



### thoughts, comments here. This is 15



### complicated. I think we're getting

-- 16



### there's going to be more. Let's keep going. 17



### MS. WIDDER: Yes, okay. 18



### Similarly around temperatures there are three 19



### different temperatures that are referenced in 20



### the DOE test procedure and application of 21



### standards. The rating temperature which we 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### were just discussing, the operating 1



### temperature of the equipment, and the 2



### integrated average temperature which is the 3



### temperature measured during the test 4



### procedure. 5



### DOE has received inquiries from 6



### interested parties about the relationship of 7



### these temperatures and how to determine 8



### equipment classification versus how the 9



### equipment is tested. 10



### So DOE proposes to establish new 11



### definitions for rating temperature and 12



### operating temperature in the regulations to 13



### help clarify the application of these terms 14



### and what these terms mean. 15



### The rating temperature is in the 16



### standards table at 431.66(d)(1). That's the 17



### table of standards. It describes the 18



### integrated average tem perature at which a 19



### model of commercial refrigeration equipment 20



### should be evaluated in accordance with the 21



### DOE test procedure unless that piece of 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### equipment is rated in accordance with the 1



### lowest application product temperature 2



### provision which is only appl icable if it 3



### can't meet the rating temperature for that 4



### equipment class. So that's the rating 5



### temperature. 6



### The operating temperature is also 7



### present in the same table. And it refers to 8



### the range of integrated average temperatures 9



### at which the unit of c ommercial refrigeration 10



### equipment is capable of operating. 11



### So for refrigerators that's 12



### greater than or equal to 32 degrees, or I 13



### forget where the equal to is. For freezers 14



### it's less than 32 degrees and for ice cream 15



### freezers that's established in the 16



### definition. 17



### And then the integrated average 18



### temperature is in the test procedure, 431.64, 19



### is the average refrigerated compartment 20



### temperature determined in accordance with the 21



### DOE test procedure for commercial 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### refrigeration equipment. And that's defined 1



### in the regulations currently as the average 2



### of all test package temperature measurements 3



### taken over the course of the test. 4



### So, to clarify this , DOE is 5



### proposing these two new definitions on the 6



### left in the box, the integrated

-- the rating 7



### temperature means the integrated average 8



### temperature a unit must maintain during 9



### testing. And the operating temperature is 10



### the temperature range of

-- the range of 11



### integrated average temperatures at which a 12



### commercial refrigeration unit is capable of 13



### operating. 14



### Sim ilarly, DOE is proposing new 15



### definitions for the equipment we've been 16



### discussing, commercial refrigerators, 17



### commercial freezers and commercial 18



### refrigerator

- freezers that similar to the 19



### definition for ice cream freezer incorporate 20



### these operating temperatur e conditions into 21



### the definition. So it's more clear. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### A commercial refrigerator 1



### operates at greater than 32 degrees 2



### Fahrenheit. And the definition proposed is a 3



### unit of commercial refrigeration equipment in 4



### which all refrigerated compartments in the 5



### unit are capable of operating at or above 32 6



### degrees Fahrenheit. 7



### A commercial freezer, the 8



### operating temperature established in the 9



### standards is less than 32 degrees Fahrenheit. 10



### A unit of commercial 11



### refrigeration equipment in which all 12



### refrigerated c ompartments in the unit are 13



### capable of operating below 32 degrees 14



### Fahrenheit is the proposed definition. 15



### And a commercial refrigerator

16



### freezer is a unit that has one compartment 17



### that is capable of operating at or above 32 18



### degrees Fahrenheit and one com partment that 19



### is capable of operating less than 32 degrees 20



### Fahrenheit as we previously defined. 21



### And then the ice cream freezer 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### definition is the existing definition that's 1



### in the regs right now. 2



### This very last slide I think 3



### brings up the type of equi pment that was 4



### referenced previously. Some models feature 5



### operating temperature ranges that cause the 6



### model to span multiple equipment classes. Do 7



### you want to comment first? Sure. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 9



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon. Am I 10



### mistaken? I tho ught it was

- 15. On this 11



### temperature ice cream freezer. Okay, thank 12



### you. 13



### MS. WIDDER: That's not proposed 14



### to change, so if it was

- 15 then that was an 15



### error. 16



### MR. HON: Okay. I just wanted to 17



### clarify because I'm going

-- 18



### MS. WIDDER: An editorial error. 19



### MR. HON: Okay, just wanted to 20



### verify. 21



### MS. WIDDER: I apologize for 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### that. 1



### MR. HON: No problem. 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: The rating 3



### temperature is

- 15. 4



### MS. WIDDER: Yes, I think the 5



### rating temperature is

- 15 but the definition 6



### is

- 5. 7



### MS. ARMSTRON G: That's correct. 8



### MS. WIDDER: Yes. 9



### MR. HON: Why would you have it 10



### when you couldn't reach the definition? 11



### Wouldn't it just be a freezer? 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: It's anything 13



### less than

- 5. So it goes down. 14



### MS. WIDDER: So a freezer

-- I'll 15



### just read the definition for everyone. A 16



### commercial freezer that is designed to 17



### operate at or below

- 5 degrees Fahrenheit, 18



### and that the manufacturer designs, markets 19



### and intends for storing, displaying, or 20



### dispensing of ice cream is an ice cream 21



### freezer and it's ra ted at

- 15 degrees 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Fahrenheit. Does that help clarify? 1



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, that's the 2



### difference. The slide's accurate, it's just 3



### that it's

-- anything under

- 5 is considered 4



### an ice cream freezer if it's got the other 5



### intended for ice cream. It's j ust you have 6



### to test it at

- 15. If you can't get down to 7



### - 15 that's when the LAPT things kick in. 8



### MS. WIDDER: Right. 9



### MS. ARMSTRONG: This is why we 10



### have questions on rating temperatures and 11



### integrated average temperatures, by the way. 12



### MS. WIDDER: And hopefully these 13



### definitions help clarify. If they don't, 14



### please

-- 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: So, thank you, 16



### Ashley. We have a question from Charity 17



### Njau. Pardon me if I butchered your name. 18



### “ Does this mean that commercial wine cellars 19



### are covered products? ” 20



### MS. WIDDER: Commercial wine 21



### cellars? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: Chillers. 1



### MS. WIDDER: Chillers. A 2



### commercial

-- 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Cellars. 5



### MS. WIDDER: If it's a unit, if 6



### it meets the definition of commercial 7



### refrigeration equipment as defined and meets 8



### the definition of commercial refrigerator 9



### defined here then yes. 10



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, what this is 11



### trying to show you is that

-- 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong. 13



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, sorry. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. 15



### MS. ARMSTR ONG: What this is 16



### trying to show you is just because it can't 17



### be tested at the rating temperature doesn't 18



### mean it's not covered and subject to DOE's 19



### test procedures and standards. 20



### So what we're trying to make 21



### clear here is that the definitions are based 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### on operating temperature, and the operating 1



### temperature, there's large ranges. 2



### And so just because something 3



### operates, for a wine chiller it may be above 4



### 32 and maybe it can't operate at the rating 5



### temperatures prescribed in the test. Well, 6



### you still have to test it. You have to test 7



### it at the lowest temperature it's capable of 8



### operating. You just aren't excluded. 9



### And that's what we're trying to 10



### make clear with this. There's a difference 11



### between determining scope of coverage. It 12



### meets the defini tion, period. And something 13



### that can't be tested because it's not capable 14



### of reaching that rating temperature. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Bruce. 16



### MR. HIERLMEIER: In remote 17



### equipment how cold the unit can get often 18



### depends on how large the condensing unit 19



### sy stem is. 20



### So, when we test in our lab we 21



### can put a small condensing unit system on it 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### for that test and not be able to get very 1



### cold. You could go to a different test 2



### laboratory that has a system that's designed 3



### to run 10 or 15 cases at one time and th ey 4



### can get very cold. 5



### So there's an inconsistency in a 6



### remote system as to how cold the unit can get 7



### because it's actually based on the test 8



### equipment that can be supplied at any given 9



### point in time. It's not like a self

10



### contained that has a condensin g unit in it. 11



### You turn it down, the condensing unit runs 12



### flat out and it's finished. 13



### So, how does DOE plan to make 14



### that a uniform test? 15



### MS. WIDDER: There are provisions 16



### in the lowest application product temperature 17



### definition and test procedure that establish 18



### specific requirements for remote cases that I 19



### am not remembering off the top of my head but 20



### have to do with setting the suction 21



### temperature on the remote case at a 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### temperature that allows you to maintain the 1



### intended rating temperature, the lowes t 2



### application temperature for that equipment. 3



### But I would encourage you to 4



### review that and to the extent that it's not 5



### sufficient please submit comments. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Collin, do you 7



### want to add in here? No? Okay. Nick. 8



### MR. SCHRINER: On the in tegrated 9



### average temperature, I don't know if you're 10



### familiar, above 32 degrees by NSF

- 7 you have 11



### to be able to maintain a temperature below 41 12



### degrees. 13



### On the integrated average, say 14



### you have to turn down your evaporator to 15



### maintain this below 41 degree s by NSF

- 7 16



### standards. Does DOE care if our integrated 17



### average is below the specified 38 degrees if 18



### we can get an average of 36 to maintain? Or 19



### is it

-- because usually we do that test at 20



### once. 21



### MS. WIDDER: So that's also

-- in 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the previous, the 2012 te st procedure final 1



### rule in addition to the lowest application 2



### product temperature DOE established 3



### provisions that equipment tested in 4



### accordance with NSF

- 7 at lower test

-- 5



### internal refrigerated temperatures could be 6



### submitted for compliance with DOE's ene rgy 7



### conservation standards. However, you're 8



### still subject to the same standard as if that 9



### equipment was rated at the prescribed rating 10



### temperature. 11



### MR. SCHRINER: So as long as we 12



### meet the 38 or below

-- 13



### MS. ARMSTRONG: In the future. 14



### MS. WIDDER: I n the future, not 15



### today. 16



### MS. ARMSTRONG: The key here is 17



### that we added those provisions to apply with 18



### amended standards. So, they do not apply 19



### today. So right now you're required to meet 20



### the rating temperature +/

- 2 irrespective of 21



### NSF. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### We did addr ess this comment and 1



### going forward in the future, and what I mean 2



### future, it's going to be compliance with 3



### amended standards. We don't know the date 4



### yet. You guys know the NOPR still is out. 5



### So it is in the future some ways down the 6



### road. 7



### MR. SCHRINER : So in other words 8



### we're going to have to perform two different 9



### tests. One day get our integrated average

-- 10



### MS. ARMSTRONG: You could 11



### petition for a waiver to test at a lower 12



### temperature and explain why. You could do it 13



### that way. Right now that's w hat our regs 14



### require, yes. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Anything 16



### additional? 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: You could submit 18



### comments to this NOPR that we should consider 19



### modifying that too, or at least consider it, 20



### and see if DOE

-- and why we should allow it 21



### now, the use of it n ow. I'm just telling you 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### what our regs are right now so it's clear. 1



### MR. SCHRINER: I'm confused I 2



### guess. What does NSF

- 7 really matter to DOE 3



### as long as their integrated average is 38 4



### degrees? Can we just run a test to meet DOE 5



### standards and to meet N SF standards? 6



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Ideally, yes. 7



### And we've acknowledged that that should be 8



### the ideal scenario. And as long as the NSF 9



### standards are more conservative, so a lower 10



### temperature would give you a more 11



### conservative rating and that's what you 12



### choo se to do. We don't require that but 13



### that's what you choose to do. I think that 14



### was our acknowledgment in the 2012 rule. 15



### The problem was we did not adopt 16



### those requirements for now. So, when you 17



### submit comments if you believe we should 18



### adopt those requ irements for implementation 19



### now please explain why. 20



### MR. SCHRINER: Thank you. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Sarah, did 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### you finish presentation on 36? 1



### MS. WIDDER: No, I did not. We 2



### have to get there. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like you to do 4



### that. 5



### MS. WIDDER: Yes. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 7



### MS. WIDDER: And this is the last 8



### slide. But it does relate to the definitions 9



### of commercial refrigerator and commercial 10



### freezer that we just discussed. 11



### DOE is aware that some models of 12



### commercial refrigeration equipment fea ture 13



### refrigeration systems or integrated average 14



### temperatures, operating temperatures that 15



### span the range of multiple equipment classes 16



### as we've just defined them. 17



### For example, a CRE model with an 18



### operating temperature range of 15 degrees to 19



### 36 degrees m eets the definition of both a 20



### commercial refrigerator and a commercial 21



### freezer. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### This is a hypothetical case. I 1



### don't know that it actually exists. 2



### DOE proposes that equipment 3



### capable of operating within multiple 4



### equipment classes would have to be test ed and 5



### certified as each of those equipment classes. 6



### So this case would have to meet the 7



### requirements for a commercial refrigerator 8



### and a commercial freezer. 9



### Now, because this case can only 10



### operate down to 15 degrees Fahrenheit the 11



### lowest application pr oduct temperature 12



### provision would be applicable for this case 13



### when rated as a freezer. 14



### Now we request comment on our 15



### definitions. DOE requests comment on the 16



### definitions for operating temperature and 17



### rating temperature. We previously discussed 18



### the defi nitions for commercial refrigerator 19



### and commercial freezer, and the application 20



### of those definitions to variable temperature 21



### equipment. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: So we'd like to 1



### hear comment on 34, 35 and 36. And let's do 2



### that now. And then shortly we're going to 3



### take a break. Any additional comments here? 4



### These are new proposed 5



### definitions. It would be very helpful for 6



### the Department to receive some preliminary 7



### feedback on these if you can offer it here. 8



### Ashley? 9



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, Ron on the 10



### phone asked how do you differentiate without 11



### changing nomenclature. And I'm not sure I 12



### understand the question. Yes, let's unmute 13



### him. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Can he speak

-- 15



### yes. 16



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, really 17



### what this is saying is that if you have a 18



### model and it opera tes as a refrigerator and 19



### it operates as a freezer. 20



### So you design a model that you 21



### had such a wide operating range that it 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### essentially spans a refrigerator and a 1



### freezer. 2



### And the user basically is allowed 3



### to toggle between the two, whatever one the y 4



### want to use depending on the application. 5



### We're saying you have to do both. 6



### You have to run the test as if it was a 7



### refrigerator, you have to run the test as if 8



### it was a freezer and you have to certify 9



### that. You have to be compliant with that. 10



### MR . HON: This is Charlie Hon. I 11



### am assuming this means only if

-- some units 12



### can cross over but we don't intend them to 13



### and we don't market them that way. We would 14



### only market them, say, as a freezer, 15



### especially something like an ice storage 16



### cabinet which operates in the mid

- twenties. 17



### That thing could be turned warm enough to 18



### where it would technically fall in the 19



### refrigeration category, but it never is 20



### marketed as that. It is exclusively marketed 21



### for an ice case. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I will say 1



### you've got the intention correct. That was 2



### the intention. 3



### Our operating temperatures are 4



### pretty distinct. They cut off. So if you 5



### believe we should provide additional 6



### clarification for the wiggle room you're 7



### welcome to submit comments. If that makes 8



### sense. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: I'm noting that on 10



### 34 there are two new definitions and on 35 11



### there are three. 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Ron, you're 13



### unmuted if you want to explain to me your 14



### question. If I didn't clarify. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: About 16



### nomenclature. We can't hear you if you've 17



### unmuted your phone. 18



### MS. ARMSTRONG: All right, well 19



### we can follow up later if it happens to come 20



### up. Or I can follow up offline if he has 21



### more. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Any thoughts on 1



### these definitions? This is my last prompt. 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Let' s do a break 3



### before we move into the next section. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, let's take a 5



### break. It's 10:35 almost. We're due for a 6



### break. I'm in no hurry to get out of here 7



### today. I know some of you might be

-- 8



### (Laughter) 9



### MR. BROOKMAN:

-- might be fa cing 10



### weather though when you depart. So I'm 11



### thinking that we should try and press on and 12



### get this done before we break for lunch. Our 13



### original end time is supposed to be 1 14



### o'clock

- ish. 15



### So go and get coffee, get a piece 16



### of fruit, or a pastry, or someth ing to 17



### sustain you through probably a 1 o'clock or 18



### so end time, okay? And let's go quickly to 19



### get coffee. 20



### You know, you must wear a badge 21



### inside the building. The restrooms are on 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### both ends of the hall. Coffee's on the 1



### ground floor, down the elevator shaft to the 2



### ground floor and it's there to the left. 3



### So good progress, really good 4



### progress, good commentary. We will resume at 5



### 10 until 11, 10 until 11. 6



### (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 7



### went off the record at 10:34 a.m. and went 8



### back on the record a t 10:54 a.m.) 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: At my peril, at 10



### our mutual peril I want to

-- since you had 11



### time to think about it and talk about it 12



### during the break any additional thoughts on 13



### slide 34 and 35? Particularly about the 14



### definitions. The comment so far on 15



### def initions has been very, very helpful. Any 16



### additional thoughts on that before we move 17



### on? 18



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we're 19



### good. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: You think we're 21



### good, okay. Okay, nothing additional then. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Yes, yes, Bruce. 1



### MR. HIERLMEIER: The only thing I 2



### thought without reading the standard that in 3



### the past if you had a dual temperature unit 4



### you tested at the lowest temperature it could 5



### obtain. And I don't know if this changes it 6



### and now you have to test also at the medium 7



### temperature because that will have an impact 8



### on the performance of the equipment. 9



### Most equipment requires 10



### additional energy to reach low temperatures. 11



### Some of that energy is backed out 12



### automatically when a customer switches to a 13



### higher temperature level. Some of that 14



### energy is now

-- like fan motors typically 15



### are two

- speed due to the cost. 16



### So, that could minimize the 17



### utility of some of this equipment for some of 18



### our customers. We don't sell a lot of them 19



### but the ones that do have them like dual 20



### temps. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. O kay, thank 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### you. Okay, so we're going to move on

-- 1



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I actually? 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Ashley. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I ask a 4



### question about that though? Are you telling 5



### me then that because you have to test at the 6



### medium temperature a s well? How would that 7



### impact the

-- I mean, if you're already 8



### testing at the low temperature, the more 9



### consumptive temperature, and you have to test 10



### at the medium temperature because it now is a 11



### freezer and a refrigerator. 12



### I understand that you may not 13



### have been running the test before so if you 14



### told me that's additional tests, that's 15



### additional testing cost, I get that part. 16



### But why is it a utility issue 17



### unless you have to actually change the design 18



### to meet the standards? 19



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Well, c hanging 20



### the design to meet the standards will 21



### increase the cost to the customers. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: Does it not meet 1



### the standards now? 2



### MR. HIERLMEIER: It potentially 3



### wouldn't meet it as a medium temp. It would 4



### meet it as a low temp at the lower one, b ut 5



### all the energy isn't necessarily backed out 6



### when it's run as a medium temp. All the door 7



### heat isn't backed out

-- 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: And your position 9



### is you should be allowed to sell a 10



### refrigerator, a single unit that operates as 11



### a freezer and a refrig erator as long as it 12



### meets the standards in one configuration. Is 13



### that your position? 14



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Yes, the lowest 15



### temperature. 16



### MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr 17



### with NEEA. How about another option is that 18



### they make the refrigerator so that it can' t 19



### operate. In other words, if they lock it out 20



### in the hardware so it won't operate in those 21



### other modes then that would be fine. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### In other words, if they're not 1



### expecting to meet the standards and it's not 2



### going to be operated in that mode if it's 3



### locked out. That could be an option. 4



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think they're 5



### offering it for sale specifically to be 6



### operated in that mode. And they're saying it 7



### should only have to be tested and compliant 8



### with one of those options. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, you want to 10



### comment? 11



### MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I 12



### have a question. Is that because of 13



### marketing of the product at two temperatures? 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you asking 15



### me? What do you mean? 16



### MR. HON: Okay. If we would

-- 17



### we have some equipment that it can drift 18



### over. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So I get the 20



### drifting. I'm saying actually dual temp that 21



### is meant to be a refrigerator and a freezer 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### and you just have like a toggle or something 1



### like that. 2



### It seems like I'm hearing that 3



### the position

-- I didn't underst and the 4



### utility argument. I only understand the 5



### utility argument if it's such that one of 6



### those positions isn't compliant and requires 7



### a redesign. 8



### MR. HIERLMEIER: When it moves up 9



### to the medium temp it would require a 10



### redesign. You'd have to change mo re of the 11



### loads to use less energy at medium temp. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Bruce. 13



### Thank you. Did you wish to comment more, 14



### Louis? 15



### MR. STARR: Well, it just

-- it 16



### seems to me that if they're marketing to 17



### operate in multiple temperature ranges and 18



### multipl e classes then it needs to meet the 19



### efficiency requirement of those cabinets if 20



### that's the specific marketing. That would 21



### seem like the logical thing to me. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: It needs to be 1



### compliant. 2



### MR. STARR: Right. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: However many 4



### cate gories of product that you wish to play 5



### in. 6



### MR. STARR: Correct. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes, Tim. 8



### MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson, 9



### Hussman n . So, kind of further on that point. 10



### Looking at the second bullet on slide 36 it 11



### says DOE proposes that equipment ca pable of 12



### operating within multiple equipment classes. 13



### Is a better word than "capable" "intended?" 14



### My concern is that we certainly 15



### have low

- temperature cabinets that are only 16



### ever intended to operate at low temperature. 17



### But certainly you could connect t hem to a 18



### remote condensing system and operate in an 19



### evaporating temperature that made the 20



### equipment medium temp. So it's capable of 21



### operating at medium temp, but that's not our 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### intent. It's not marketed that way. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: You're not 2



### shipping it t hat way. 3



### MR. ANDERSON: It's a remote 4



### case. It's a component of a larger system. 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: He doesn't know, 6



### yes. So I think that gets somewhat

-- that's 7



### a different point but it somewhat gets to my 8



### point that I made to Charlie earlier. 9



### You kn ow, the way we've defined 10



### it in here, those operating ranges are cut 11



### and dry. If it falls below it goes into this 12



### dual

-- if it falls below or above in 13



### capability it goes into that other bucket. 14



### So if there is additional 15



### language that you would like t he Department 16



### to consider about marketing, intended 17



### operation, in addition to capability we would 18



### need to understand how you draw the line, why 19



### we should draw the line. 20



### I mean, someone could also offer 21



### one
-- I'll tell you the counter. Someone 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### could off er one and say, you know, it has a 1



### toggle button very clear that says

-- I'm 2



### just making this up, by the way

-- it says 3



### refrigerator on the left, it says freezer on 4



### the left. But oh, well, I didn't intend for 5



### it to ever be used as a refrigerator. So how 6



### do we bridge that gap is what I'm asking. 7



### I'm not saying you do that, I'm 8



### not saying anybody in the room would ever do 9



### that. I'm just saying that's the counter. 10



### MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 11



### Store Fixtures. On dual temp cases, 12



### especially remote, not necessarily

-- even if 13



### it's a dual temp case, not necessarily the 14



### case would have a toggle switch. 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm simplifying. 16



### MR. NESHAN: Yes. It is at the 17



### discretion of the refrigeration equipment 18



### manufacturer to have the control or the 19



### switch at the rack or at the case. So if 20



### they have it at the rack the case 21



### manufacturer would have absolutely no idea if 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the case is going to be used for a medium 1



### temperature application or not. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ron , we hope , is 3



### unmuted and he wants to speak. So Ron, 4



### hopefully you can get in here. Speak. We're 5



### not hearing anything, Ron. Let's try it 6



### again in a little bit. We're hoping to hear 7



### from you. Let us know. Emily will let us 8



### know when you can get back in here. 9



### Okay. I think we covered that 10



### suff iciently for right now. Let's go to 11



### Collin. 12



### MR. WEBER: All right. Thanks, 13



### Doug. So right now we're going to move into 14



### talking about some additional clarifications 15



### to the test procedure. 16



### The first of these will be with 17



### respect to treatment of equip ment features 18



### and accessories. And so what this stems from 19



### is the summer 2013 reg neg sessions which 20



### most of you in this room were part of for 21



### CC & E of commercial HVAC refrigeration water 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### heating equipment and in which issues were 1



### raised by participants re garding treatment 2



### during the test procedure of specific 3



### equipment features, components and 4



### accessories which may be in place on certain 5



### basic models of CRE. 6



### The following slides discuss some 7



### specific features and components and 8



### accessories, and present p roposals on how 9



### these items should be treated under the test 10



### procedure. These are basically intended as 11



### proposed codifications of what was agreed 12



### upon through consensus vote during the reg 13



### neg process. 14



### So hopefully this should move 15



### fairly quickly and smoothly because most 16



### people have seen this before and voted in 17



### approval of it. So we're just going to go 18



### through these on a feature

- by

- feature basis. 19



### The first of these features, 20



### customer display signs and lights. These are 21



### additional signage, exterio r, outside the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### body of the refrigerated cabinet for the 1



### purpose of advertising the product. 2



### Optional, not integral to the cabinet and do 3



### not serve to illuminate product which is 4



### inside the body of the cabinet. So it's 5



### completely exogenous to the function

. 6



### The proposal from the reg neg was 7



### that supplemental lighting existing solely 8



### for purposes of advertising or drawing 9



### attention to the case and which is not 10



### integral to the case would not be operated 11



### during testing under the DOE test procedure. 12



### And so as an administrative note 13



### we don't have any comment boxes on all of 14



### these. If there are any comments, interject 15



### at any point. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: I think that's the 17



### way to go. Comments here? No comments here. 18



### MR. WEBER: All right. Second 19



### feature, cond ensate pan heaters and pumps. 20



### Many CRE types come with means of removing 21



### condensate, melt water. Some do it in a 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### completely static manner using wicking kits 1



### and that sort of thing. 2



### However, others come equipped 3



### with electric resistance heaters that 4



### v aporize the water and others come equipped 5



### with pumps which pump the melt water to an 6



### external drain similar to how a remote 7



### condensing case would be set. 8



### The proposal that heaters and 9



### pumps would be installed and operational per 10



### ASHRAE 72 under the acce ssories section for 11



### the entirety of the test including 12



### stabilization of pull

- down, steady state and 13



### performance testing period. 14



### It was agreed during the reg neg 15



### that clarification would be added that prior 16



### to the start of the stabilization period the 17



### c ondensate pan should be dry. 18



### And then for the entire period of 19



### the test following the start of that official 20



### stabilization period any condensate generated 21



### will be allowed to accumulate reflecting 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### effectively field conditions unhindered. And 1



### water would not be manually added or removed 2



### at any point during the test. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on this 4



### proposal? Yes. 5



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce from Zero 6



### Zone. We have a number of customers that use 7



### remote equipment in strip mall type 8



### applications. So the floo rs are not cut with 9



### floor drains. They may be leasing the stores 10



### and not want to spend it. They opt to use 11



### condensate pans to dissipate that heat. 12



### In the modeling that DOE did when 13



### they did self

- contained equipment they 14



### modeled in condensate pans as p art of that 15



### energy use. They did not model in condensate 16



### pans as part of the energy use for remote 17



### equipment. 18



### So, in part now they've changed 19



### the rules. Self

- contained get extra energy 20



### whereas remote cases don't get that energy 21



### use capability. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### So it effectively eliminates the 1



### ability for that customer base to use a store 2



### that does not have a floor drain, damaging 3



### the utility of our equipment in their 4



### application. So in the past those 5



### pans were shipped

-- generally they're 6



### shipped loose. Custome r may put them on top 7



### of the case, may put them someplace else, may 8



### power them separately from a wall outlet. 9



### And now they won't have those options 10



### anymore. 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Why won't they 12



### have the option? You have to test it this 13



### way and it has to be c ompliant when tested 14



### this way. 15



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Your modeling 16



### allowed for it in the self

- contained. 17



### Included that energy level. 18



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part. 19



### MR. HIERLMEIER: It did not 20



### include the energy level in it. So your 21



### energy levels are s et too stringent to allow 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### this to apply. 1



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Tim? 3



### MR. ANDERSON: I'd like to echo 4



### all of Bruce's comments. If this applies to 5



### remote cases it will preclude the use of 6



### condensate pans on any remote cases basically 7



### bec ause of the stringency of the levels. 8



### It's also important to note that 9



### the volume of this application of condensate 10



### pans on remote cases, and I can only speak 11



### for Hussmann , is less than 1 percent. I 12



### mean, it's the exception, it's not the rule. 13



### But it w ill reduce the utility of the 14



### equipment for that

-- for those customers. 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to 16



### point out Hussmann participated in the 17



### negotiations. 18



### MR. ANDERSON: And Ron feels very 19



### strongly. And if he could speak he would. 20



### Ron feels very stro ngly that the discussions 21



### in the working group were pertaining to self

- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### contained cases. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe, Ron, we'll 2



### invite you again to unmute your phone and try 3



### and speak. Not working. Emily says it's not 4



### working. Sorry, Ron. Ron, if you want t o 5



### write out some comments then Emily will

-- 6



### questions or comments we'll read them into 7



### the meeting here. Do our best. Lauren? 8



### MS. ZELINSKI: I just wanted to 9



### echo what both Hussmann and Bruce had said 10



### earlier. 11



### I would say from AHRI's 12



### perspective a lmost all of our manufacturers 13



### would agree that on remote cases including 14



### the condensate pan is an optional feature 15



### that very few people use. And so causing all 16



### of those to be tested would not meet the 17



### setup of this unit. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis? 19



### MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr 20



### with NEEA. In these cases that you're 21



### talking about why wouldn't just a small pump 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### that would pump it over to some other 1



### drainage thing work in that application 2



### instead of using a pan heater? 3



### MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson, 4



### Hussmann . Certainly a pump would be an 5



### option. These are customer requirements that 6



### we're fulfilling. 7



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce from Zero 8



### Zone. In some applications in these stores 9



### there's not an immediate drain available. 10



### You're in a store where there' s no place to 11



### pump it off, or local health inspectors take 12



### a dim view of pumping condensate water a long 13



### distance as well. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments 15



### here before we move on? We have a comment 16



### from Ron I think. 17



### Ron says “C ases tested at LAPT, 18



### now that LAPT is common terminology, do we 19



### still need to apply for a waiver when testing 20



### this way? ” 21



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the answer

-- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the proposal would be that you do not. But 1



### the caveat there is until the final rule is 2



### effective you will. So, once the fi nal rule 3



### is out and if DOE ends up adopting the LAPT 4



### provisions as proposed in this rule it gets 5



### rid of the waiver process for that, although 6



### until that happens, until the rule is 7



### effective you will still have to go through 8



### those procedures. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN : Ron continues. 10



### Cases that operate at two different rating 11



### temps, how will these be certified? 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, if the

-- 13



### it's going to depend on if they span multiple 14



### operating temperatures. That's how we 15



### discussed it. So it's not about rating temps 16



### so much as operating ranges such that they 17



### fall into refrigerator, freezer, or like ice 18



### cream freezer. And so that's how that goes. 19



### If there are multiple rating 20



### temperatures then that's going to

-- and 21



### they're multiple rating temperatures such 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### tha t the LAPT is a different number and it 1



### cannot be tested at a rating temperature, 2



### that's a different question. But still 3



### within the same operating temperature range. 4



### So, they're both refrigerators. 5



### One can only get down to 50, one can get down 6



### to 40, neither can get down to the rating 7



### temperature. That's a different question. 8



### So I don't know if that's what he's asking. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: He continues. 10



### When speaking with Laura B. I understood that 11



### you would need uniqueness in the nomenclature 12



### for two d ifferent ratings? Testing at NSF 13



### temps, I thought this was already allowed in 14



### the regs. Condensate heaters

-- 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Hold on, go back 16



### to the one. So, I think I made clear the NSF 17



### thing earlier. It's not in the current test 18



### procedure required today. It's in the test 19



### procedure that will be required in the 20



### future. So yes, DOE did address it but it's 21



### not required today. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### My comment still stands. If you 1



### feel that it should be required today please 2



### explain, et cetera. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Does t hat address 4



### two different ratings? Okay. And then test 5



### standard NSF temps. 6



### MS. ARMSTRONG: That one I just 7



### addressed. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: I thought this was 9



### already allowed in the regs. Condensate 10



### heaters, the test method for self

- contained 11



### only, this i s not spelled out. 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: The negotiations, 13



### I will say that slide said nothing about 14



### self

- contained versus remote. There's 15



### nothing in the slide, there was nothing on 16



### the vote. It's all documented. 17



### Now, you may submit your comments 18



### but ther e was nothing there. There are 19



### plenty of people in the room that were there. 20



### You may have had different intention but 21



### there is nothing on the slide there. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: And finally from 1



### Ron, “I n the working group I mentioned that 2



### remote cases were not part of the heated pan 3



### discussion. ” 4



### MS. ARMSTRONG: What I just said 5



### stands. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: So written 7



### comments on these specific issues I think 8



### would be very, very helpful. Tim? 9



### MR. ANDERSON: One last comment 10



### on the heated condensate pans for re mote 11



### equipment. In effect, what will happen is 12



### that the end users of the equipment will 13



### purchase condensate pans separate from the 14



### cases, probably from a separate manufacturer, 15



### and will install them themselves, and you 16



### know, bypassing UL safety regulation s. 17



### So I don't think you're going to 18



### preclude that energy from being spent, you're 19



### just going to have the end users find a way 20



### around it. And in my opinion the equipment 21



### will not be properly sized and potentially 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### not as safe. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley? 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, so just to 3



### take a step back. So, explain to me, do the 4



### remote cases

-- what is the percentage of 5



### remote cases today that actually get sold 6



### with condensate pan heaters or pumps? From 7



### the manufacturer. 8



### MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson f rom 9



### Hussmann . I can say for Hussmann it's less 10



### than 1 percent. 11



### And like Bruce mentioned earlier, 12



### the application is typically where a retailer 13



### will go into an existing space, often a small 14



### format store, could be a strip mall or 15



### something similar. And they don't want to 16



### add in thousands and thousands of dollars to 17



### trench the floors to add in floor drains. 18



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, you believe 19



### across the board regardless of whether that 20



### unit is offered for sale with the use of a 21



### condensate pan heater, if it is a remote case 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### it should not be tested with the pan heater 1



### or pump? That is what your belief is? 2



### That's not what our proposal is, but 3



### clarifying what your belief is. 4



### MR. ANDERSON: Certainly. Tim 5



### Anderson. My belief is that it's such a low 6



### volume exception that it should be exempted 7



### from the test procedure. 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. 10



### MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr 11



### with NEEA. If they install these after

12



### market pan heaters are they going to be 13



### connecting into your equipment w ith those pan 14



### heaters? 15



### MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson. No, 16



### they would just be connecting to the 17



### electrical. You do mean an electrical 18



### connection? 19



### MR. STARR: Right. I mean, I'm 20



### trying to see how it's going to affect the UL 21



### rating of your machine, that' s what I'm 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### trying to get at. Because they'll have to 1



### reply with the national electrical codes. 2



### In other words, any electrical 3



### device you install is going to have to be

-- 4



### MR. ANDERSON: Certainly. But if 5



### you're

-- 6



### MR. STARR: So, if they're not 7



### co nnecting your equipment, they're complying 8



### with electrical codes, there's no real safety 9



### issue it seems to me. 10



### MR. ANDERSON: If they don't size 11



### the pan properly you can run into other 12



### issues. Not electrical issues. Water on the 13



### floor which can create lawsuits for the 14



### retailer. You know, you can create other 15



### issues there aside from electrical issues. 16



### MR. STARR: The other thing is as 17



### far as the difference between adding a 18



### condensate pump as opposed to adding an 19



### electrical pan heater it costs a lot o f money 20



### to put a fairly sizable electrical load. 21



### If the place is cooking food they 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### have ways of draining stuff there already. 1



### So connecting into a pump does not have to be 2



### directly located above where it's draining 3



### to. You can have a pump and it can pu mp 15

- 4



### 20 feet from its location. 5



### So if they're draining stuff in 6



### the restaurant I don't understand why they're 7



### not able to connect into a plumbing 8



### connection. I mean, as when I used to do 9



### design that's what I would do is I would go 10



### find an appropriate receptor. I wouldn't go 11



### and say hey, let's find an electric pan 12



### heater. 13



### I'm trying to understand the 14



### design sense, why someone would come in 15



### afterwards and decide to put in a pan heater 16



### rather than just putting in a condensate pump 17



### that has a very s mall connection. 18



### MR. ANDERSON: It's Tim Anderson. 19



### The retailers that we're typically selling 20



### to are not restaurants. These are small 21



### grocery stores, dollar stores, things of that 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### nature. Not places where they're preparing 1



### food. 2



### MR. STARR : Right, b ut they're 3



### going to have to get a permit to put their 4



### stuff in, right? In the code. In other 5



### words, a design engineer or somebody that's a 6



### design professional is going ahead and 7



### designing this stuff and outfitting it such 8



### that it's meeting code. 9



### So a ll these things still apply 10



### and the best design is still

-- that's 11



### probably why you're only selling 1 percent is 12



### because it doesn't make a lot of sense to do 13



### it that way. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Steven. 15



### MR. KING: Yes, Steve King with 16



### Royston LLC. We have to k eep in mind 17



### concurring with Hussmann even local law and 18



### local building laws around the United States 19



### do not support floor drains anymore. So 20



### that's all the way down into the local codes. 21



### And as you say, point of purchase 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### equipment such as this with a ne w store build 1



### is not going to have a drain system in some 2



### local municipalities, so. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: We're about to 4



### move on. Yes? Here we go. 5



### MR. WEBER: All right, thanks. 6



### The next feature under discussion was anti

7



### sweat heaters on display doors. 8



### M any transparent door cases come 9



### with them obviously, serve to evaporate 10



### condensate water. In some instances 11



### manufacturers might equip their cases with 12



### higher than standard anti

- sweat power due to 13



### expected operation in adverse conditions, 14



### high ambient, hig h humidity, that sort of 15



### thing. 16



### The proposed resolution agreed on 17



### through the reg neg sessions was that DOE 18



### proposes that anti

- sweat heaters should be 19



### operational during testing under the test 20



### procedure with some further explanation that 21



### models of the us er
- selectable setting must be 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### turned on and set to the maximum usage 1



### position. 2



### Models featuring an automatic 3



### control system that's not adjustable by the 4



### user must be operating in the automatic 5



### state. And if a unit is not shipped with a 6



### controller from t he point of manufacture but 7



### is intended in all cases to be used with a 8



### controller the manufacturer must make 9



### representations of the basic model based upon 10



### the rate of performance as equipped and 11



### tested with the appropriate compatible 12



### controller. 13



### MR. BROO KMAN: Comments on this 14



### proposal? Yes, Bruce? 15



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce from Zero 16



### Zone. Just as we go through some of these 17



### other ones it seems somewhat random as to 18



### which things get to be turned on and which 19



### ones don't. 20



### So customers that have outdoor 21



### markets or poor air conditioning, they have 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### to spend more money to have automatic 1



### controls. In some of these other 2



### areas they get to have filters. They can 3



### direct the air flow. It doesn't have to be 4



### tested with these item. They get to have 5



### more util ity without more expense, whereas 6



### some of our customers with poor conditions 7



### have to spend more money to get the utility 8



### out of the equipment. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: So, how would you 10



### suggest this be modified? 11



### MR. HIERLMEIER: We'd prefer to 12



### allow the user in an adjustable situation to 13



### be able to turn it down and the equipment be 14



### set at

-- one that would be marked for 75

- 55 15



### percent relative humidity. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: But that's for the 17



### user, or for the tester? 18



### MR. HIERLMEIER: During test and 19



### then the user wo uld have that as well so that 20



### -- again, you're relying on the user to turn 21



### down his equipment to use the least amount of 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### energy as possible because it's in their best 1



### interest as well. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 3



### Additional comments here on anti

- swe at door 4



### heaters? Okay. 5



### MR. WEBER: Next feature, UV 6



### lights, usually included for sanitation 7



### purposes. And it was agreed that UV lights 8



### should not be turned on during the test 9



### procedure. 10



### Temperature displays and alarms. 11



### Illuminated displays providing visual 12



### information on equipment operating status. 13



### Also, alarms that would notify if a case fell 14



### out of the specified operating

-- or the 15



### desired operating range. Proposal is that 16



### these items are simply integral to the 17



### function of the equipment and would be 18



### enabled during the test as they would be used 19



### in normal field operation. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on 21



### illuminated temperature displays and alarms. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. WEBER: Next item, non

1



### permanent condenser filters. Manufacturers 2



### may offer models equipped with these sorts of 3



### filters to prevent particulates from blocking 4



### the air flow. And the agreed upon proposal 5



### was that non

- permanent filters should be 6



### removed during the test. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: No controversy 8



### there? No comment. 9



### MR. WEBER: Security covers. A n 10



### option to include straps for the devices to 11



### secure the condensing unit, preventing theft 12



### or tampering. And the proposal is that 13



### security devices should be removed during 14



### testing under the DOE test procedure. 15



### Next item, grill options. 16



### Manufacturers ma y offer optional grills that 17



### are used to deflect air flow in unique 18



### applications such as rear mounts near to a 19



### wall where the air flow needs to be directed 20



### upwards. 21



### The agreed

- upon position during 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the reg neg sessions was that , if present , 1



### non
- standard g rills would be removed during 2



### testing. 3



### Coated coils. Evaporator coils , 4



### and condenser coils as well , generally coated 5



### and specified for use in environments where 6



### there would be exposure to acids or 7



### oxidizers. Treated with additional coating 8



### such as an e poxy or polymer to prevent 9



### corrosion or other deterioration. 10



### Existing test procedure 11



### accurately accounts for the performance of 12



### all types of coils including coated coils and 13



### therefore there's no explicit proposal or 14



### change to anything because it's alread y 15



### captured. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here? No 17



### comments. 18



### MR. WEBER: Mis t ing or 19



### humidification systems usually put in place 20



### to maintain the quality of products such as 21



### fresh produce, seafood or meat. And if 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### present, these systems would be left inactiv e 1



### during the test. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 3



### MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 4



### Store Fixtures. If this is

-- obviously this 5



### is done for specific applications. If 6



### misting systems and humidification systems 7



### are not to be operational during testing 8



### where in reali ty they would be used during 9



### the operation, why the previous slide which 10



### was the coil? I mean, the coated coil is

-- 11



### it must be tested. However, this is not 12



### allowed to be tested. 13



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley? 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Corre ct. 16



### MR. NESHAN: So why? 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Because that's 18



### what we negotiated. 19



### MR. NESHAN: Well, negotiated 20



### because you're forced to accept it because 21



### basically the issue was that if this

-- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### because there were other parties involved. 1



### And if that was

-- if coated coil are not to 2



### be tested then that could also be waived from 3



### the unitary units. I'm not sure which part 4



### of it it was. Isn't that's correct? 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Please, I don't 6



### think anyone was forced to vote a certain 7



### way. 8



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon. On the 9



### negotiations the discussion was coated coils 10



### are integral, built into the system and 11



### always in use 100 percent of the time. 12



### These other items are very

-- 13



### they are very transient. You can set them 14



### wherever you want to. They're beyond the 15



### control of the design. It's purely on 16



### control of the operator. And that's where a 17



### lot of the changes came from. 18



### MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. 19



### I think the other part is some things like 20



### coated coils inherently save energy in that 21



### the fact that if t hey're not coated they 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### become

-- they quickly lose their use or 1



### abilities. So they actually are an energy

2



### saving device. So I think that's the other 3



### part of what got decided to be as part of 4



### included and not included. 5



### So, something that obviously wil l 6



### not save energy such as anti

- sweat coils is 7



### not the same as coils when they get plugged 8



### and they're more inefficient. So having them 9



### coated makes sense in that case. So that's 10



### the other part of it that was kind of the 11



### deciding process on that. 12



### MR. BR OOKMAN: Any additional 13



### comments here? Yes. 14



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Just to be 15



### somewhat of a pain

-- Bruce from Zero Zone

-- 16



### they could certainly test these energized at 17



### full on during the test procedure. So it 18



### runs completely just like they want the anti

19



### swe at heaters on the doors to run at full. 20



### So, and again, it's sort of one 21



### of these things where, okay, these people get 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### a certain utility. Energy doesn't matter as 1



### long as you keep your vegetables fresh which 2



### is fine. But in other applications all of a 3



### sudden energy becomes important and we don't 4



### care if you have to mop the floor. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Moving on. 6



### MR. WEBER: Next item under 7



### discussion during the negotiations was air 8



### purifiers. Supplemental purifying systems to 9



### remove contaminants from air which is 10



### recirculated within the body of the case. 11



### The proposed position was that 12



### air purifiers should be inactive during 13



### testing under the DOE test procedure. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: No comments? 15



### MR. WEBER: General purpose 16



### outlets. Some CRE units may com e equipped 17



### with integrated general purpose electrical 18



### outlets which can be used to power additional 19



### equipment completely external to the 20



### refrigerator or freezer such as scales or 21



### slicers, for example, in a deli environment. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### The agreed

- upon position being 1



### proposed for confirmation here is that while 2



### testing using the DOE test procedure no 3



### external load should be connected to any 4



### general purpose outlets which are contained 5



### within the unit. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: No comments. 7



### MR. WEBER: And I believe the 8



### final item, yes, is crankcase heaters. Some 9



### CRE units come with electric resistance 10



### heaters designed to keep the compressor at an 11



### optimal operating temperature during low 12



### ambient conditions such as if a unit was 13



### installed outdoors. 14



### The proposal for codifica tion 15



### here was that if present crankcase heaters 16



### should be operational during the test. 17



### Under the proposal, however, if a 18



### control system is used to modulate the 19



### operation of the crankcase heater it should 20



### be used as intended according to the 21



### manufacture r's instructions. The intended 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### result of that being that at the DOE test 1



### conditions you generally would not see a 2



### crankcase heater activated. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, okay. 4



### MR. NESHAN: Question. Neshan, 5



### Southern Store Fixtures. What happened to 6



### t he crankcase pressure regulators? I thought 7



### we discussed that when we agreed. I mean, 8



### that's missing from here. Crankcase pressure 9



### regulators. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Crankcase pressure 11



### regulators. 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: You're right, 13



### it's not included. So we'll m ake sure that's 14



### clear. 15



### MR. NESHAN: Thank you. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: And the way it 17



### would be clear would be to state

-- 18



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know yet. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20



### MS. ARMSTRONG: It was part of 21



### the package that went to ASRAC so we just 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### nee d to pull the language. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Moving 2



### ahead? 3



### MR. WEBER: Sure. So, that 4



### concludes the section specific to the 5



### outcomes of the reg neg sessions. 6



### But there were some other 7



### clarification items that arose as a result of 8



### stakeholder inq uiries and other avenues that 9



### we'd like to just address and seek comment 10



### upon. 11



### The first of these involves the 12



### use of energy management systems during 13



### testing. The DOE test procedure states at 14



### this time that all devices that would 15



### normally be used in th e field must be 16



### installed and operated in the same manner 17



### during the test procedure unless this is 18



### inconsistent with any requirement of the test 19



### procedure. This therefore includes energy 20



### management systems. 21



### If normal field installation or 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### operation woul d be inconsistent with any test 1



### procedure requirement of which we'll give an 2



### example then the specific function that 3



### causes inconsistency must be disabled. 4



### To give a little bit of 5



### concreteness to this, if an energy management 6



### system raises or lowers the cabinet 7



### temperature, modulates it such that the 8



### applicable integrated average temperature 9



### can't be maintained, then in this case the 10



### function of the EMS that varies the cabinet 11



### temperature would need to be disabled in 12



### order to enable the provisions of the DOE 13



### test procedure, that rating temperature, to 14



### be met. 15



### Other functions, however, may 16



### remain enabled provided that they don't cause 17



### other effects that would cause the unit to 18



### violate provisions of the test procedure. 19



### If those functions cannot be 20



### contro lled separately, if it's a matter of 21



### the whole system, whole control scheme being 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### on or off, then that system would need to be 1



### disabled so that all provisions of the test 2



### procedure could be met. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on the 4



### foregoing? I see none. 5



### MR . WEBER: All right. The 6



### second issue to be addressed for 7



### clarification discusses lighting. 8



### DOE test procedure currently 9



### states that all devices that would normally 10



### be used in the field must be installed and 11



### operated in the same manner during the test. 12



### ARI 1200

- 20 06 and AHRI 1200

- 2010 13



### specify that the measured energy consumption, 14



### TDEC or CDEC, shall include lighting loads. 15



### Seventy

- two states at 6.1.1 that 16



### all standard components such as and including 17



### lights , to paraphrase , shall be installed and 18



### us ed as recommended by the manufacturer. 19



### Due to these explicit references 20



### to case lighting , DOE believes that the 21



### energy consumption associated with lights 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### installed on a model of CRE is intended to be 1



### captured during testing. It's just 2



### background mostly

. 3



### And in 2012 test procedure final 4



### rule DOE adopted specific provisions for the 5



### treatment of lighting occupancy sensors and 6



### schedule controls, establishing specific time 7



### periods during which these controls, 8



### variation in lighting may be turned off or 9



### dimm ed during the test. 10



### DOE wishes to clarify in response 11



### to some inquiries that are received that a 12



### mechanical light switch should not constitute 13



### an energy management system or a lighting 14



### control for that matter. 15



### Models of commercial 16



### refrigeration equip ment with lighting 17



### installed in the case and no energy 18



### management system shall be tested with lights 19



### on to their maximum illumination level for 20



### the duration of the test. 21



### Any lighting controls of the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### user
- selectable setting must be turned on and 1



### set to th e maximum usage position. An 2



### exception to this being models with solid 3



### doors with lighting controls that 4



### automatically turn off internal case lighting 5



### when the door is closed. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on this, 7



### on lighting testing. Yes, Bruce. 8



### MR. HIER LMEIER: Bruce from Zero 9



### Zone. I had a question. If you have like an 10



### open case that has multiple shelves and 11



### customers can choose to buy a light under the 12



### shelf or not buy a light under the shelf does 13



### that case need to be tested with all the 14



### lights insta lled? 15



### Or can you test it with the 16



### lights, you know, I have different basic 17



### models like a two

- shelf lit case is one basic 18



### model, a three

- shelf lit case, and basically 19



### break it up into basic models. So you can 20



### have different energy levels depending on t he 21



### number of lights that you are selling at that 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### instant. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: And an unlit case 2



### would be another basic model. 3



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Yes, or a top 4



### nose and bottom sometimes. 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Let me think 6



### about that for a minute. Yes, let me thin k 7



### about that for a second. 8



### MR. HIERLMEIER: I had a 9



### different question as well. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11



### MR. HIERLMEIER: The standards 12



### now coming out and allowing energy levels to 13



### be used with automatic lighting controls, but 14



### I thought in 2012 you could n't start using 15



### that testing procedure until the regulations 16



### got updated and in a sense reduced to account 17



### for that. 18



### Is that still the case or would 19



### you be able to start testing once this is 20



### adopted and start testing with those controls 21



### in place withou t having to reduce the energy 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### level of the standard? Or do we have to wait 1



### till the 2017? 2



### MR. WEBER: The next slide 3



### clarifies that. 4



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Okay. 5



### MR. WEBER: We're just taking 6



### comment at this point. 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead. 8



### MR. HON: Wait a second, I have a 9



### question before we go. Charlie Hon, True 10



### Manufacturing. 11



### I have one concern about the 12



### statements here because certain occupancy 13



### sensors have a learning curve built into them 14



### where they learn over a period of time when 15



### to turn the lights on and off. 16



### Unfortunately, during the test 17



### procedure the rooms are closed, there's no 18



### activity inside of the test room, so that if 19



### they're locked in there for more than a week 20



### or so they'll have learned to turn the lights 21



### off because there's no ac tivity near the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### unit. How do you deal with that? 1



### MR. WEBER: Is there a manual 2



### override on those? 3



### MR. HON: They can be programmed 4



### to override. 5



### MR. WEBER: Okay. Because the 6



### way the test procedure currently reads it's a 7



### fixed time off. It's a fixe d time off. 8



### MR. HON: But there are many of 9



### them now that are learning curves built into 10



### them. 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So by default 12



### they would be tested with this program. So, 13



### if they can't be

-- I mean, right now if they 14



### can't be overridden such that the pr ogram 15



### could be applied to them then if you want 16



### credit for them you need to come get a 17



### waiver. 18



### MR. WEBER: So, moving on to 19



### speak to the point that Bruce raised. 20



### The way the NOPR has reorganized 21



### the language of the test procedure divides it 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### into

-- pro poses to divide it into two 1



### appendices with different applicabilities in 2



### time. 3



### The first appendix would be 4



### what's relevant today and applicable today. 5



### The second would be what was being discussed 6



### earlier which is tied into revised standards 7



### and would be applicable at that time. 8



### So, in the first appendix what 9



### would be on the books today and for use today 10



### would be that all lighting must be energized 11



### at the maximum illumination level throughout 12



### the whole test. And the exception would be 13



### for solid door mo dels that include automatic 14



### controls such as just a pressure switch that 15



### disable case lighting when the door is 16



### closed. 17



### In Appendix B this includes the 18



### material from the 2012 test procedure rule 19



### that was discussed as well as this 20



### clarification. All ligh ting shall be 21



### energized to its maximum illumination level 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### except for a model that's equipped with 1



### occupancy sensors or schedule d controls, or 2



### when a model is outfitted with other 3



### permanently installed automatic energy 4



### management systems that control lighti ng. 5



### And if a unit that includes

-- if 6



### a unit includes an automatic lighting control 7



### system it should be enabled during the test. 8



### If it's equipped with occupancy sensor and 9



### controls it should be tested in accordance 10



### with the provisions adopted specifical ly 11



### referring to those systems in the 2012 test 12



### procedure final rule. 13



### MR. HIERLMEIER: So when would B 14



### start applying? Would that be when 2017 15



### comes out? Would that be when this NOPR gets 16



### finished? Kind of what year I guess. 17



### MR. WEBER: B would be tied to 18



### the compliance with new standards. 19



### MR. HIERLMEIER: So it would be 20



### like 2017? 21



### MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't know 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### what the actual date is, but roughly. 1



### MR. HIERLMEIER: The 3

- year
-- 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 3



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Okay. Thank 4



### you. 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: With the caveat 6



### that DOE has issued guidance, across

- the

7



### board guidance for all products that allows 8



### the use of amended test procedures early but 9



### as part of that guidance you would have to 10



### comply with amended standards early and 11



### certify su ch. So, that's

-- this Appendix B 12



### is key to the provisions of the 2017

- ish 13



### standards. 14



### MR. WEBER: All right. Final 15



### issue for clarification was in response to an 16



### inquiry on test package temperatures. 17



### Stakeholders inquired whether the 18



### DOE test proce dure has specific requirements 19



### for the test simulators and filler packages 20



### that must be met prior to loading them into 21



### the unit at all. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### ASHRAE 72 provides specific 1



### instructions as to loading of test simulators 2



### and filler packages. That's at 6.2. As wel l 3



### as with respect to temperature stabilization 4



### at 7.4. States that the unit must run till 5



### steady state conditions as defined in Section 6



### 3 are achieved. And then after steady state 7



### operation is reached the unit must operate 8



### for another period of 12 hours before it's 9



### deemed to be stabilized. 10



### Therefore, DOE doesn't believe 11



### that the product simulators or test packages 12



### need to be at any specified temperature 13



### condition prior to loading before the 14



### stabilization or pull

- down period even 15



### occurs. 16



### If there's no questions on that 17



### then Sarah will address this final major 18



### section. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, one quick 20



### question to all of you before Sarah starts 21



### talking. We have one section left and 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### there's a couple of minor things at the 1



### beginning but what we're going to get into I 2



### have a feeling will cause a lot of discussion 3



### which is TDA. And some of the slides

-- I've 4



### rearranged some of the slides for TDA and I'm 5



### going to be presenting that part. 6



### But before we do that does anyone 7



### need a 5

- minute break? Just a quick 5

- minute 8



### break. Because we will be pushing through so 9



### we can end this before lunch. So does 10



### anybody want a quick 5

- minute break, go to 11



### the bathroom, do whatever you need to do, 12



### check email, make a quick phone call? And we 13



### reconvene in 5 minutes. Yes. So take a 14



### quick 5

- minute break. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, 5 minutes. 16



### You know where the restrooms are. 17



### (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 18



### went off the record at 11:39 a.m. and went 19



### back on the record at 11:48 a.m.) 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: All right, let's 21



### start. T he last few days have been very 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### frustrating here. We haven't been able to

-- 1



### for web participants to join us and speak 2



### into the room. But now I think we have that 3



### fixed. So those of you that are joining us 4



### via the web, please feel free to raise your 5



### han d and we'll fit you into this 6



### conversation. 7



### And, Joe, you had several 8



### comments. However, Ron, had several 9



### comments. Ron, do you want to speak now to 10



### cover anything that we may not have covered 11



### sufficiently from your perspective so far? 12



### Ron's not on ri ght now, okay. 13



### MR. ANDERSON: He said he lost 14



### the webinar. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: And in fact we had 16



### to reboot the webinar, so apologies for that 17



### as well. 18



### Okay, now we're going to proceed. 19



### Are we ready to do this? 20



### MS. WIDDER: We're ready. 21



### MR. BROOKMA N: Sarah. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. WIDDER: Okay. So, we have a 1



### few, as Ashley mentioned, a few minor test 2



### procedure issues before we'll get into the 3



### other major clarification that DOE is 4



### proposing that Ashley will present regarding 5



### TDA. Just a few minor clarifications. 6



### The first is around rounding of 7



### test results and certified ratings. The 8



### current DOE test procedure incorporates by 9



### reference ARI Standard 1200

- 2006 and then in 10



### the 2012 provisions which would be applicable 11



### with any amended standards, AHRI Standard 12



### 1200

- - you can't even see that

-- there, 13



### 2010. New one. 14



### So, those standards require that 15



### the energy consumption for covered equipment 16



### be expressed in terms of kilowatt hours per 17



### day and stated in increments of 0.01 kilowatt 18



### hours per day. 19



### Similarly, since those standards 20



### are incorporated by reference in the DOE test 21



### procedure , DOE's

-- the certified ratings 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### that manufacturers submit to DOE should also 1



### be reported in units of kilowatt hours 2



### rounded to 0.01 kilowatt hours per day. 3



### One thing that was not cle ar was 4



### when that rounding should occur. And in the 5



### case that that has any influence on the 6



### certified value that one manufacturer test 7



### lab would get versus another DOE wishes to 8



### clarify that these calculations should be 9



### done using raw measured values and t hen 10



### rounded to 0.01 kilowatt hours at the end. 11



### And we will

-- DOE is proposing to 12



### incorporate these requirements into the DOE 13



### test procedure to clarify. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here. 15



### MS. WIDDER: Any comments? We 16



### request comment on the proposed round ing 17



### provisions and their applicability to the 18



### test procedure and the certification 19



### requirements. All right. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here. 21



### MS. WIDDER: We'll move on. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 1



### Store Fixtures. Just one comment. This 2



### rounding of the test results and the raw 3



### data, the raw data per ASHRAE Standard 72, it 4



### only carries to one decimal point. If you 5



### check. 6



### MS. WIDDER: I'm not recalling 7



### that requirement, but the Department will 8



### certainly review that. 9



### MR. NESHAN: All right, than k 10



### you. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: You, I presume, 12



### would like to have them be consistent. 13



### MR. NESHAN: Yes. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: I just wanted that 15



### in the record. 16



### MR. NESHAN: No, no, absolutely, 17



### yes. 18



### (Laughter) 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 20



### Okay. 21



### MS. WIDDE R: Okay. Actually, I 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### have a follow

- up question for Massoud. Are 1



### you saying that the CDEC and TDEC are only 2



### rounded to 0.1 kilowatt hours per day? Or 3



### the actual

-- what is only rounded to 0.1? 4



### MR. NESHAN: No, Neshan, Southern 5



### Store Fixtures. Obvious ly ASHRAE 72 has 6



### nothing to do with the CDEC and all that. 7



### It's just a method of testing and recording. 8



### MS. WIDDER: Right. 9



### MR. NESHAN: When you record 10



### temperatures and pressures and all that 11



### stuff. 12



### MS. WIDDER: Right. And energy. 13



### MR. NESHAN: A nd energy, carried 14



### to one decimal point. That's all I'm saying. 15



### MS. WIDDER: So the energy in 16



### ASHRAE Standard 72 is only one decimal point. 17



### MR. NESHAN: The BTU requirement, 18



### though, when you measure the BTU requirement 19



### of a remote display case it is o ne decimal 20



### point. 21



### MS. WIDDER: Well, there's 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### certainly more significant digits in terms of 1



### BTUs though. 2



### MR. NESHAN: Yes, but 3



### temperatures. I mean there is

-- 4



### MS. WIDDER: Right, right. We'll 5



### certainly consider that in the subsequent

-- 6



### how signifi cant digits are carried through. 7



### Thank you. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, moving on. 9



### MS. WIDDER: This is just some 10



### clarifying slides on the lowest application 11



### product temperature provision. There's been 12



### some discussion of that earlier today and 13



### also inquires that have been received by the 14



### Department regarding applicability of this 15



### provision. 16



### In light of those this slide 17



### provides background on what is currently 18



### required and then subsequent slides provide 19



### proposed clarifications to the lowest 20



### application prod uct temperature provision. 21



### Currently, DOE defines lowest 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### application product temperature as the 1



### integrated average temperature closest to the 2



### specified rating temperature for a given 3



### piece of equipment achievable and repeatable 4



### such that the integrated a verage temperature 5



### for a given unit is within +/

- 2 degrees 6



### Fahrenheit of the average of all integrated 7



### average temperature values for that basic 8



### model. 9



### It's confusing and sort of a 10



### mouthful. The idea, the intent of this 11



### definition is that a manufacture r is to 12



### certify

-- if a piece of commercial 13



### refrigeration equipment, a model, a basic 14



### model of commercial refrigeration equipment 15



### cannot meet the rating temperature for that 16



### equipment class the manufacturer would 17



### certify the lowest application product 18



### temp erature. 19



### The intent is that lowest 20



### application product temperature will be 21



### consistent across the units for that basic 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### model. So, for example, you couldn't pull

-- 1



### you could not specify 8 degrees Fahrenheit 2



### and then have other models that maybe DOE 3



### wou ld pull in enforcement that really can, in 4



### fact, either meet the rating temperature or 5



### meet something much lower than your specified 6



### lowest application product temperature. We 7



### would like consistency across units of a 8



### given basic model. So, in light of th at, it 9



### was a confusing definition. 10



### This is just another

-- a little 11



### more background about when the lowest 12



### application product temperature applies. We 13



### discussed that it applies to a certain basic 14



### model of commercial refrigeration equipment 15



### that cannot be operated at the prescribed 16



### rating temperature, but all other 17



### requirements of the DOE test procedure apply. 18



### Except that you have to test

-- 19



### the rating temperature shall be +/

- 2 degrees 20



### of the lowest application product 21



### temperature. The measured integ rated average 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### temperature recorded during the test will be 1



### within 2 degrees of the certified lowest 2



### application product temperature for that 3



### piece of equipment. 4



### So, here's an example. Hopefully 5



### this helps. The lowest application product 6



### temperature. S o, for example, if a basic 7



### model freezer has an operating range from 8 8



### to 28 degrees Fahrenheit and thus cannot 9



### operate at the prescribed rating temperature 10



### of zero degrees Fahrenheit for freezers that 11



### basic model would be tested as low as it can 12



### go which in this case is 8 degrees 13



### Fahrenheit. 14



### In this case, if DOE were to 15



### randomly select a representative unit to test 16



### for compliance purposes that unit should be 17



### able to maintain an integrated average 18



### temperature between 6 and 10 degrees 19



### Fahrenheit, and that should be as low as it 20



### can go for that unit. 21



### And it should not

-- that unit 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### must not be able to operate at zero degrees 1



### Fahrenheit. That is the important part. 2



### For many cases this is always the 3



### lowest thermostat setting. That's a 4



### clarification. 5



### A nd when DOE conducts a test in 6



### accordance with the lowest application 7



### product temperature a lot of times that will 8



### be turning down the thermostat all the way. 9



### And so to the extent that that's consistent 10



### among units is what we're going for here. 11



### MS. ARMS TRONG: I'm going to say 12



### one clarification. 13



### MS. WIDDER: Yes, go for it. 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Not a lot of 15



### times. We will be turning the thermostat all 16



### the way down. So, if for some odd reason 17



### your literature speaks to a certain operating 18



### range for your t emperature and we happen to 19



### test a unit and we crank it down to the 20



### lowest thermostat setting and it is operating 21



### outside of that range we are going to test at 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the lowest temperature the unit is capable of 1



### running. I just want to make that 2



### clarification. 3



### And you are required to test at 4



### the lowest temperature that unit is capable 5



### of running. 6



### MS. WIDDER: So, to clarify, DOE 7



### proposes to modify the lowest application 8



### product temperature provision. Hopefully 9



### this is a little more clear. 10



### Lowest applicati on product 11



### temperature means the lowest integrated 12



### average temperature at which a given basic 13



### model is capable of consistently operating, 14



### i.e., maintaining so as to comply with the 15



### steady state stabilization requirement 16



### specified in ASHRAE as incorporated by 17



### reference for the purposes of testing under 18



### the DOE test procedure. 19



### The other part of turning down 20



### the thermostat all the way is that 21



### temperature when we're at the lowest 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### application product temperature still has to 1



### meet the stabilization requirements specified 2



### in ASHRAE. And so those are the two bounds 3



### that help us define what lowest application 4



### product temperature is. 5



### And now that we're explicitly 6



### referencing ASHRAE 72

- 2005 DOE is proposing 7



### to incorporate by reference that standard 8



### which has alwa ys been the method of test 9



### inherent in AHRI or ARI 1200

- 2006 and AHRI 10



### 1200

- 2010. But now that's explicitly 11



### incorporated by reference in the DOE's test 12



### procedures in the CFR as well. 13



### DOE requests comment on its 14



### proposed modification to the lowest 15



### applica tion product temperature definition. 16



### Is it more clear? Are there other things 17



### that should be incorporated? 18



### I think hopefully our intent is 19



### clear, but it is difficult to write in words. 20



### And its proposal to incorporate by reference 21



### ASHRAE 72. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROO KMAN: Charlie. 1



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 2



### Manufacturing. ASHRAE 72

- 2005, the final 3



### review publication is in action right now and 4



### will be completed at the end of this year. 5



### So that probably needs to be considered as 6



### 2014 publication. 7



### The second thin g is that you're 8



### relying on mechanical sometimes controllers 9



### on some of these units. So, the mechanical 10



### controllers can change. 11



### And I know good and well what I 12



### will do is dummy up the controller to run a 13



### little bit colder than a normal controller 14



### just so I don't run into a problem. But that 15



### way you have a very conservative number. 16



### But 2 degrees Fahrenheit plus or 17



### minus on a controller turned all the way down 18



### I think is not repeatable at all. I think 19



### you're going to be 3 to 4 degrees at least. 20



### MS. WIDDER: Just to follow up on 21



### that. If you have suggestions about a better 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### way that the Department could define the 1



### lowest temperature for a basic model such 2



### that it's consistent but also not allowing 3



### for manufacturers to just pick any number. 4



### That's th e struggle we have. 5



### MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon 6



### again. From our point of view we will be 7



### conservative and we will just dummy up the 8



### controller to where it runs slightly colder 9



### than we believe our standard product would 10



### ever get to and thereby guarante e that we 11



### would have a very conservative energy number. 12



### But I cannot guarantee that we 13



### would be repeatable within +/

- 2 degrees of 14



### where we said the unit was tested. But isn't 15



### it more important to be conservative and 16



### efficient in our efficiency number? 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So I 18



### thought the explanation was really quite 19



### clear. So additional comments on this 20



### proposed definition? Yes, Tim. 21



### MR. ANDERSON: In Section 2.2 of 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Appendix B, I'll go ahead and read this. It 1



### says for remote condensing equipme nt without 2



### a thermostat or other means of controlling 3



### temperature at the case the lowest 4



### application product temperature is the 5



### temperature achieved with the adjusted dew 6



### point temperature as defined in AHRI Standard 7



### 1200 set to 5 degrees colder than that 8



### required to maintain the manufacturer's 9



### lowest specified application temperature. 10



### Can you comment on how you came 11



### about that number and illustrate in the 12



### example how that would be used? The example 13



### you had on slide 63. 14



### MS. WIDDER: So, in the 2012 te st 15



### procedure rulemaking the issue regarding the 16



### applicability of the lowest application 17



### product temperature to remote cases that do 18



### not have thermostats in the case was raised. 19



### And DOE recognizes that this is an issue. 20



### So this was a suggestion received 21



### by manufacturers as part of the comments on 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the NOPR. The way that it would apply here 1



### is if

-- I can imagine physical limits in 2



### terms of refrigerant flow and pipe sizing 3



### that would limit how

-- or the heat exchanger 4



### size that would limit the cooling that a case 5



### is capable of and that intended temperature 6



### would be your lowest application product 7



### temperature. 8



### And then because there's 9



### variability in the sizing of condensers that 10



### can be attached to the remote case you would 11



### set the section temperature on that case such 12



### that you maintained the intended lowest 13



### application product temperature for that 14



### case. This is

-- 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Minus 5, right? 16



### MS. WIDDER: Yes. 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: We would do the 18



### same thing you would do. So in that case the 19



### example is not as applicable because the 20



### instructions are different. But DOE would do 21



### the same thing you would do in setting that 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### temperature. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: And say what that 2



### would be. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, he read it. 4



### I don't have it in front of me, so. 5



### MR. ANDERSON: Okay. Tim 6



### Anderson. I want to make sure that I 7



### understand. So, I'm going to give an 8



### example. 9



### I'm going to use the LAPT of 8 10



### that was used in the example on slide 63. So 11



### if the LAPT for a piece of equipment is 8 12



### Fahrenheit you would the n
-- and let's say 13



### that the dew point temperature, not adjusted 14



### dew point, dew point temperature to achieve 8 15



### is zero. Okay? So that's basically the 16



### manufacturer's recommended set point to 17



### achieve an IAT of 8. 18



### The adjusted dew point

-- or, I'm 19



### sorry. So then you would take 5 below that. 20



### You would run the unit at a

- 5 adjusted dew 21



### point which equates to a

- 2 dew point. So 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### you would run the unit at

- 2. 1



### MS. WIDDER: Yes, it sounds 2



### right. The adjusted dew point 5 degrees 3



### cooler than that required to maintain the 4



### lowest application product temperature. So 5



### yes, if the dew point is zero and then you go 6



### 5 degrees below. 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you asking 5 8



### degrees below the dew point or 5 degrees to 9



### get 5 degrees below the lowest application 10



### product temper ature? 11



### MS. WIDDER: No, the adjusted dew 12



### point to achieve the lowest application 13



### product temperature. Will you read it again? 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's just take 15



### it offline. 16



### MS. WIDDER: Yes, we'll

-- 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I get your 18



### question though. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ron would like to 20



### speak. Ron, I think this can work. Welcome. 21



### MR. SHEBIK: Can you guys hear me 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### now? 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we can hear 2



### you. Yay. 3



### MR. SHEBIK: I appreciate it, but 4



### actually the question I had Tim Anderson 5



### worded it much be tter and he got the point 6



### across I believe. 7



### (Laughter) 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: What an 9



### anticlimax. 10



### MR. SHEBIK: Sorry about that. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Ron. 12



### Okay. 13



### MR. SHEBIK: Thank you. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: So, do we have 15



### additional comments regarding th is revised 16



### LAPT definition? 17



### MS. WIDDER: And I would say 18



### specifically on the case of

-- or in the case 19



### of remote cases with no thermostat which we 20



### were just discussing, if there are specific 21



### comments about a better, or more clear, or 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### more consistent app roach to describing the 1



### lowest application product temperature for 2



### those cases that's different than what is 3



### already on the books the DOE welcomes comment 4



### on that. 5



### Okay, moving on then. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Neshan, did you 7



### have something there? Neshan. 8



### MR . NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 9



### Store Fixtures. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: I could see the 11



### wheels turning. 12



### MR. NESHAN: Yes. But for the 13



### record most remote refrigerated display cases 14



### go out of the factory without a thermostat on 15



### them. I mean, it's hardly

-- really 16



### e xception to have a thermostat on a remote 17



### case. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Really? 19



### MS. WIDDER: Yes, but I also have 20



### another

-- 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: The remotes. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. WIDDER: So I have a follow

1



### up question. I understand that, but my 2



### understanding is that most remot e cases can 3



### also meet their rating temperatures. That 4



### it's unusual for remote cases to be designed 5



### such that they cannot meet the rating 6



### temperatures because of the flexibility in 7



### the condensing unit. 8



### MR. NESHAN: Well, if they cannot 9



### meet the rating th en you're in trouble. 10



### MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson. 11



### There are some low

- temperature cabinets which 12



### are limited in terms of the evaporator and 13



### air flow, open cases typically. But you're 14



### right that the condensing unit side is 15



### typically never an issue unti l you get down 16



### to, you know. So it's more components in the 17



### case could be where your LAPT may be 8 rather 18



### than zero on a few cabinets. 19



### MS. WIDDER: Okay. Yes, that was 20



### just

-- I mean anyway, just wanted to clarify 21



### that. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: You got that? 1



### MS. WIDDER: Yes, I got it. 2



### Thank you very much. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Moving on then. 4



### MS. WIDDER: Okay. And now 5



### Ashley is going to talk about TDA and AHRI 6



### interpretation. 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So as I 8



### mentioned at the beginning of the webinar we 9



### got some preliminary questions and comments 10



### before today's public meeting about TDA. 11



### So, I assume that everyone has 12



### read the proposal for TDA, DOE's 13



### clarification. So let me step through this 14



### real quick. 15



### One is that I just want to make 16



### clear something. T his has a little bit to do 17



### with this, but it's a little broad. 18



### A number

-- we understand that 19



### we've incorporated by reference portions of 20



### industry standards. Some of those are ASHRAE 21



### standards, they may be AHRI standards, they 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### may be AHAM standards in t he case of volume. 1



### We do want to clarify though, 2



### unless the Department has actually issued 3



### guidance through our formalized guidance 4



### process the guidance doesn't count for the 5



### federal test procedure. 6



### So if one of those organizations 7



### decides to answer questions or issue guidance 8



### the way to get it into the test procedure 9



### would be to present it to DOE to move through 10



### DOE's guidance process. 11



### Just because the guidance has 12



### been adopted either as an ASHRAE addendum if 13



### there is such a thing or an AHRI guid ance 14



### document, it doesn't count for the purposes 15



### of DOE testing unless DOE has officially 16



### adopted through its guidance process and says 17



### it must be used. So I do want to clarify 18



### that. 19



### If you have questions about the 20



### federal method of test once it becomes a 21



### federal method of test we would work closely 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### with ASHRAE in resolving them, we would 1



### closely with AHRI and everyone else, but they 2



### need to go through the formalized process at 3



### that point. Okay? 4



### So, we know that there's five 5



### interpretations out there that AHRI has 6



### issued. I'm not going to go through them 7



### here because I think a TDA discussion is more 8



### useful at this point and you have our 9



### positions on them. 10



### And now I'm going to move to the 11



### slides you don't have. I apologize you don't 12



### have them in adv ance. I've taken out the 13



### next set of slides to show you some 14



### illustrations. 15



### So, we've gotten a lot of 16



### questions with regards to TDA in terms of how 17



### certain links are calculated for the purposes 18



### of TDA measurement. 19



### So, you don't have these in your 20



### do cument. We will make them available right 21



### after the public meeting so that you do have 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### a copy. 1



### But I wanted, for the purposes of 2



### discussion I wanted to present to you four 3



### different scenarios and start a discussion 4



### about TDA. 5



### So, scenario 1 shows

-- I 'm going 6



### to present all four and then I welcome your 7



### feedback. Scenario 1 shows a case with the 8



### wall flush with the visible area. So you can 9



### see we have presented three different ways 10



### that the lengths could be calculated. 11



### It could be the boundary of the 12



### refrigerated volume edge to edge. It could 13



### be B which is the entire continuous length 14



### which would be including the mullions. Or it 15



### can be C + D + E which is actually the sum of 16



### the lengths of the visible areas only. So 17



### I'm going to go to the next ex ample. 18



### So, why this matters is because 19



### we've come across

-- we understand this is 20



### the way most commercial refrigeration 21



### equipment is designed with the boundary of 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the refrigerated volume fairly flush with the 1



### glass. And the mullions are minimized such 2



### t hat you really are maintaining as much 3



### visible area as possible because you're 4



### trying to sell product. So when I go to the 5



### next scenarios keep that in mind. 6



### Scenario 2. This is where the 7



### visible area is almost inset from the 8



### boundary of the refrigerate d volume. So 9



### there's a difference. It almost comes around 10



### and overlaps and then the glass inlays a 11



### little bit. 12



### So you can calculate length a 13



### couple of different ways. One would be the 14



### inside wall to the inside wall of the 15



### refrigerated volume. That is larger than the 16



### actual glass. 17



### You can calculate it by B, the 18



### entire continuous length containing the 19



### visible area only. That would include the 20



### mullions though. 21



### Or you can do C + D + E which is 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the sum of the lengths just of the visible 1



### area. I thi nk you know our proposal is C + D 2



### + E, by the way. 3



### So, this case is a little bit of 4



### an oversize, egregious case. Because I 5



### realize that as a commercial refrigeration 6



### equipment manufacturer you're probably trying 7



### to maximize your visible area to sell 8



### pro duct. But I wanted to show an example of 9



### why this matters from the Department's 10



### perspective. 11



### So, for this one it's the same 12



### scenario too except for they have a really 13



### big mullion in the middle, like really big. 14



### And assume for the purposes of discussio n 15



### that's a composite, it's foamed and it's 16



### just, you know, almost as big as one of the 17



### windows. 18



### So then for this we have three 19



### ways of calculating TDA. Should it be the 20



### boundary of the refrigerated volume once 21



### again? Should it be the continuous length of 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the visible area which would include the 1



### mullion? And in this case that's a very 2



### large portion. Or should it really just be 3



### the sum of the visible areas? 4



### And then I'm going to go through 5



### scenario 4. And this is where the glass 6



### actually overhangs th e refrigerated volume. 7



### So the internal is smaller than the glass 8



### itself, the refrigerated space. So the 9



### boundary of the refrigerated volume fits into 10



### where the glass is. 11



### And for the purpose of this the 12



### entire continuous length of visible area 13



### would a ctually be larger than the 14



### refrigerated volume itself. And then 15



### obviously you can see the two ways to 16



### calculate just the visible areas. 17



### So, I understand it may be hard 18



### because you don't have these slides in front 19



### of you, but when the Department was comi ng 20



### out with an interpretation or its proposal 21



### these are the scenarios we were trying to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### think of. And so this is what we would like 1



### your feedback on. Because I understand that 2



### people may have a lot of feedback on what we 3



### should do. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, and maybe 5



### when you comment you can refer to the 6



### scenario that you wish to comment on. Who'd 7



### like to start? Tim? Which scenario? 8



### MR. ANDERSON: Go back to the 9



### first one. Tim Anderson, Hussmann . The 10



### point that I would like to make and that I 11



### was try ing to illustrate with the exhibit 12



### that we submitted was not so much that we 13



### have a problem with using one method versus 14



### the other. 15



### It's that when the standard 16



### levels were set and the proposed standard 17



### levels were created for let's call it the 18



### 2017 rul e that essentially the first one, 19



### length A, was used in all of those analyses. 20

21



### So, you've already used this 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### method for setting your standard levels. If 1



### you are going to change it, that's fine, 2



### let's agree on a way to change it, but you 3



### also have to re vise the standard levels 4



### accordingly. 5



### If you subtract 10 percent of our 6



### TDA from our case you have to adjust the 7



### standard levels so that we're not unfairly 8



### penalized. That's the point that I want to 9



### make. 10



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So, I'm 11



### going to go on the record saying the 12



### Department will not adjust TDA in a manner 13



### that will increase the stringency of the 14



### standards you are required to meet today. 15



### Now, what we want to get out of 16



### the discussion is what should TDA actually 17



### be. What is the best method t hat TDA

-- how 18



### should TDA really be calculated? 19



### So I'm going to turn the question 20



### a little bit in the sense that we get the 21



### standards point. We will deal with that. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### But with my examples do you see 1



### the differences? 2



### MR. NESHAN: Yes, Ashley. 3



### Nesha n, Southern Store Fixtures. I mean, 4



### this obviously is very typical of a 5



### commercial refrigeration door cases 6



### manufactured in the United States and other 7



### places as well. 8



### The second one that you had, this 9



### is really the only place, and Bruce mentioned 10



### you h ave seen this is when you have an ice 11



### storage or one of those units you see outside 12



### of a gas station in the self

- ice in plastic 13



### bags. You would see a door and then the 14



### insulated on either sides. 15



### And then the last one, the fourth 16



### one that you were showin g, this one, I've 17



### never seen anything like this because I don't 18



### think anybody wants to open a door and then 19



### be in a non

- refrigerated area because that 20



### would be a very, very difficult

-- really 21



### you're penalizing yourself and it's not a 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### very good design. 1



### But typically that number 1 is 2



### what everybody is familiar with. Our 3



### equipment is manufactured that way. 4



### And by the way, this does not 5



### only apply to the door type cases. I mean, 6



### I'm talking about the reach

- in door cases. 7



### It is also applicable to servi ce over counter 8



### where you have the sliding doors in the back. 9



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, it's going 10



### to apply there. 11



### MR. NESHAN: So it's

-- and there 12



### are other equipment very similar to it. 13



### So, the

-- in my opinion the best 14



### way to do it is what we have b een doing so 15



### far and how it was

-- the TDA was calculated 16



### when the 2008 calculation was put together, 17



### to stay with that, how it was defined, and 18



### that would have been A, the first version, 19



### whatever. 20



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, how do you 21



### reconcile that with the d efinition of TDA 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### includes the projected areas for visible 1



### product? What do we do with A there? 2



### MR. NESHAN: I don't know who 3



### would make a case like that. 4



### MS. ARMSTRONG: But we have to 5



### write regs that are very clear and meet the 6



### intent of the projecte d areas

-- meet that 7



### definition. 8



### MR. NESHAN: This is Neshan. I 9



### don't have an answer because I've never seen 10



### anything like this. 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I mean, 12



### it's a tense point, right? I mean, the 13



### reason you see the difference there is 14



### because th e mullion area really is about 10 15



### percent. That's why you're seeing a 16



### difference. 17



### And the question becomes does the 18



### mullion area really meet the intent of the 19



### TDA definition which is projected areas for 20



### visible product. I'm asking. It's a 21



### question. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Bruce. 1



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce from Zero 2



### Zone. I mean, I think when we started 3



### looking at TDA a long time ago we never got 4



### really good correlation actually in the data. 5



### And we looked at our competitors ’ cases as a 6



### group and all th at and said all right, how 7



### does TDA really compare to the energy use and 8



### shouldn't we be using volume for remote cases 9



### and all, and what about the depth of the 10



### case ? Do you get a benefit if you've got a 11



### deeper case ? 12



### And it was kind of one of those 13



### you negotiate, you look at and say all right, 14



### we're just going to do TDA and we're going to 15



### do the length of the case. So we don't have 16



### a lot of engineering data to point out what's 17



### the difference in energy level for scenario 3 18



### which you think would be a lot because you 19



### could have an insulated panel, doesn't have 20



### any glass heat, doesn't have any radiated 21



### components or anything. But we don't have 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### good numbers to tell you how much to add or 1



### cut out of that to regulate against it even. 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think 3



### that's a different question, right? It's 4



### more the question of if we were

-- we are 5



### providing guidance, more details about how 6



### TDA should be calculated. And the definition 7



### of TDA is projected areas for visible 8



### product. What should that guidance sa y? 9



### I mean, are mullions are visible 10



### product? Please speak. I mean, this is 11



### meant to be a discussion. 12



### MR. SCHRINER: Arneg USA, Nick 13



### Schriner. It depends on how close you are to 14



### the product. Because if you can get close 15



### enough you can see this. Are you talking a 16



### 10

- foot straight on view? 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, it also 18



### depends on how big those mullions are, 19



### correct? If you have on that's 3 feet wide, 20



### don't know why you would do that, but if you 21



### have one that was 3 feet wide I would argue 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### you m ay not be able to see visible product on 1



### the other end ever. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce. 3



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Well, when we 4



### were looking at these interpretations at AHRI 5



### we had toyed with, all right, you're going to 6



### put a person in front of the door. And we 7



### wer e actually looking at the vertical ones. 8



### And we were like, all right, what 9



### if you had an angle and you said that person 10



### could look up 30 inches from this point and 11



### anything that you could project and see from 12



### that location would be considered visible 13



### s pace. 14



### Ultimately vertically we said no, 15



### we're just going to go direct in 16



### horizontally. But we had looked at, sort of 17



### to Arneg's point, you know can you look 18



### sideways at it. At a certain distance out, 19



### at a certain position in front of that 20



### opening what can you see sideways? Anything 21



### you can see sideways you get to consider as 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### display area. 1



### Things you can't see

-- so like 2



### if B was wide, 6 feet wide, odds are you 3



### can't stand in front of it and see 3 feet to 4



### the side. But maybe you'd get, you know, 5



### an other 10 or 12 inches, whatever you might 6



### be able to see. So, I mean that would be one 7



### method is you pick a point, you put some 8



### dimensions on it and that allows you to get 9



### beyond normal mullions. 10



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I agree, that 11



### is one method. That is a little subjective, 12



### right? Somebody would have to make the 13



### determination of what you could see and what 14



### you can't. Sure. 15



### MR. ANDERSON: So, just 16



### brainstorming. Tim Anderson, Hussmann . What 17



### if you used, and going back to the first one 18



### again, what if you used A but set a threshold 19



### for the amount of the thickness of the 20



### mullions that could be excluded? 21



### You know, so you said A is the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### length of the case unless, you know, the 1



### thickness of these mullions is greater than 2



### 15 percent of the overall A dime nsion, 3



### something like that. That may be a way to 4



### try to avoid the situations like you show in 5



### I think it was scenario 3. 6



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, we 7



### could do that. That's definitely an idea. I 8



### would argue you should use B. In your case A 9



### and B are t he same for your standard cases. 10



### Where B helps us is when you have 11



### the wraparound. And if you have a wraparound 12



### like you were explaining with the ice chest 13



### there is a difference there. And B would get 14



### you to what your mullion issue. 15



### We could

-- I m ean this really

-- 16



### scenario 1, 2, 3 and 4 was meant to generate 17



### ideas and a discussion. Our proposal was C + 18



### D + E. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Say why. 20



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that was 21



### the only way that

-- well, A, you know, it 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### says projected areas for visible pr oduct, and 1



### B, you know, when you're just counting the 2



### glass minus the mullions you don't have to 3



### rely on an interpretation of can I see, can I 4



### not see, depending on how thick the mullion 5



### is, what's the materials of the mullions, 6



### whether it's insulated or n ot. You don't 7



### have to worry about those kinds of things. 8



### It's just the glass. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 10



### MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. 11



### There's also another set of scenarios that 12



### are even
-- along with up and down 13



### directions, you know, you have a horiz ontal 14



### and a vertical direction which is not even 15



### included in your slides here. 16



### But also, if you use the pictures 17



### and the descriptions in a lot of open cases 18



### you lose part of your visible display because 19



### a lot of open cases have a 6

- to 12

- inch 20



### ridge buil t up to capture the cold air 21



### falling down. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 1



### MR. HON: And then you lose all 2



### that as well. So that would go the reverse 3



### direction. Because if some of these other 4



### areas are discussed like the A scenario on 5



### that you would actually increase the internal 6



### display area for that unit. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah? 8



### MS. WIDDER: So, just to follow 9



### up on Charlie's point. That is

-- so these 10



### are only discussing length. The height 11



### measurement is also addressed in the AHRI 12



### interpretations and pr etty clearly in the 13



### diagrams that are in Appendix D. 14



### There's also some diagrams that 15



### the Department proposed to include in the CFR 16



### that help define H. 17



### And the C + D + E method

-- and 18



### actually if you go to scenario 4 it's 19



### actually F + G + H is the Dep artment's 20



### proposal. And that's consistent with the 21



### Department's proposal for height. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### So it would be height is in your 1



### case where there was that either a part of 2



### the air curtain or something that comes up 3



### over the display area you start from that to 4



### wh at you can see. 5



### And that's consistent with AHRI 6



### that it really is the projected height 7



### dimension. And so part of the reason 8



### Department proposed this for the length 9



### dimension is it's consistent in both 10



### dimensions. 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 12



### MR. BROOKMA N: Let me ask as an 13



### attempt to obtain some clarity, what's the 14



### downside in the Department's proposal CDE? 15



### From the manufacturing perspective. Yes, 16



### Nick. 17



### MR. SCHRINER: I believe that

-- 18



### didn't you already address that? 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: As long as we 20



### addressed his point. I mean, the Department 21



### is going on the record saying that

-- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Some percentage of 1



### mullions, whatever. 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no. I 3



### mean he's saying that the standard

-- we 4



### can't by default

-- 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, ye s, right. 6



### Gotcha. 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So as long as we 8



### address that issue do we think that this is 9



### the most clear and objective and equal way to 10



### go. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Nick. 12



### MR. SCHRINER: Another downside 13



### is a manufacturer could have bigger doors 14



### than thei r actual refrigeration area. 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: That's 4. So you 16



### wouldn't be able to count that. It would be 17



### F + G + H. 18



### MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. 19



### Door variance

-- because if you're fairly 20



### wide door framing, you actually cover more 21



### than the mullion , you would be extended 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### beyond the edge of the mullion with your door 1



### frame. You can do that, we do in some areas, 2



### which would further change the dimensions up 3



### there. Because is it actually the glass, or 4



### is it the mullion? 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the glas s in 6



### our proposal. 7



### MR. HON: And that would include 8



### the framing of the doors becoming a component 9



### as well. 10



### MS. WIDDER: No, I'll clarify. 11



### It's not the glass. In that example it's the 12



### projection of visible area. 13



### MR. HON: Straight line? 14



### MS. WIDDER : Straight line. 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, straight 16



### line. 17



### MS. WIDDER: What you can see 18



### through. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 20



### MR. HON: Which would include 21



### mullion, glass

-- I mean door frames, 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### whatever it would be, whatever it is 1



### obstructing the view is strai ght through. 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce. 4



### MR. HIERLMEIER: I think what's 5



### challenging is the one that has the really 6



### wide mullion, if they're all the same volume 7



### cases would use the least amount of energy 8



### but would also be the least li kely to be able 9



### to pass probably because you don't account 10



### for anything in the back wall, bottom, or 11



### ceiling to allow it to have some energy. 12



### So you could wind up sort of an 13



### odd scenario that if manufacturers started 14



### saying we're going to put smaller d oors on to 15



### save energy you actually can't pass the test 16



### by saving energy because of the back wall and 17



### ceiling doesn't get any additional allowance 18



### let's say. So you'd have to be careful with 19



### the formulas, how that would work out. 20



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I'm not sure 21



### we're going to come to agreement. But if you 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### have ideas, like I said, what I wanted to do 1



### with this when I was thinking last night to 2



### give you some background behind the 3



### Department's thought process. That's why we 4



### drew these diagrams. 5



### Ultimat ely we led to the proposal 6



### that's in the rule today. But if you have 7



### any comments on that we welcome that. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we're seeking 9



### clarity here, to be clear, and not agreements 10



### at this point. So, additional thoughts and 11



### any written comments s pecifically. Bruce? 12



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Well, to address 13



### the question I had, would the DOE entertain 14



### sort of a more complex formula where you have 15



### a TDA component for energy, but then you have 16



### another component for non

- TDA space or volume 17



### or length? 18



### So that would account

-- this guy 19



### says all right

-- it's almost like building 20



### two transparent door cases and a solid door 21



### case in that one really big one. So if you 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### said, all right, you get this extra component 1



### for your solid stuff maybe then it helps 2



### cover unique designs. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Do these designs 4



### happen very often, these odd

-- 5



### (Laughter) 6



### MS. ARMSTRONG: It was my caveat 7



### when I presented the slide. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: It doesn't help 9



### you sell product, right? It doesn't maximize 10



### use of space. 11



### MR . HIERLMEIER: Ice cases are 12



### sort of built like that, but a lot of them 13



### are self

- contained when they're built like 14



### that. They have a small door. You open it 15



### up and you can reach. About the only product 16



### I've seen. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 18



### MR. NESHAN: Nes han, Southern 19



### Store Fixtures. Just one cautionary note. 20



### If you go back to the first case, if we were, 21



### I mean just for the sake of discussion, if we 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### were to eliminate the mullions what would 1



### stop us from also eliminating where there is 2



### no product, basical ly there is shelf, you 3



### know, for edge of the shelf. 4



### There is no product in there, 5



### right? The edge of the shelf where you have 6



### all the shelves in the display case. There's 7



### no product where the shelves are. So you 8



### have a piece of metal that really is not 9



### usable space. 10



### Also, in the inside, on the end 11



### panels when you have a glass end panel all 12



### these shelves have their solid area that you 13



### can't display product. So who says that we 14



### cannot eliminate those? 15



### See, it becomes very complicated 16



### trying to c alculate these things. It becomes 17



### really we have to sit down on a daily basis, 18



### do nothing but these kind of calculations 19



### which is really not the intent of I'm 20



### assuming this standard. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Joe Sanders would 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### like to speak. Joe, welcome. Unmute your 1



### phone and speak clearly. 2



### MR. SANDERS: I looked at the 3



### formulas. If these were all solid doors we 4



### would use volume to calculate energy 5



### consumption. Why wouldn't we do the same 6



### thing for glass door remotes? Instead of 7



### going through all this TDA d iscussion. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah. 9



### MS. WIDDER: Well, that's related 10



### -- so the standard, the current standard that 11



### we have for remote transparent cases is based 12



### on TDA. So, if the Department continues to 13



### regulate based on a TDA metric in the 14



### standard t he test procedure must provide a 15



### method for calculating that dimension. 16



### MR. SANDERS: I hear you. I'm 17



### listening carefully. But if that's such a 18



### huge discussion point why don't they just 19



### simply switch to volume based upon a formula 20



### for remote transparen t door cabinets like we 21



### do for self

- contained and like you're doing 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### for remote solid door. 1



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think the 2



### simple answer is that could be a way for the 3



### future. That's not going to be a way to fix 4



### all the questions we get now. 5



### Bottom l ine is we have TDA now 6



### for the current standards and honestly, for 7



### the proposed ones. So we need at least a 8



### method to clearly identify how TDA should be 9



### measured now to the extent it's not already 10



### clear in our regs. And then if we decide to 11



### move to volum e in the future we could 12



### consider that. 13



### MR. SANDERS: One final comment. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Please, Joe, go 15



### ahead. 16



### MR. SANDERS: One final comment 17



### and I'll go. And this may be pretty much

-- 18



### if volume is calculated on three dimensions 19



### why don't we

-- for glass, and I'm only 20



### talking about glass door cases. Why don't we 21



### calculate TDA based on a two

- dimensional area 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### which goes wall to wall, top to bottom as if 1



### you were calculating volume? And forget 2



### about what we're trying to do with mullions. 3



### Just lea ve TDA as a square foot age 4



### calculated wall to wall, top to bottom 5



### without the third dimension depth involved. 6



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, my answer 7



### is going to be I do think that's what some 8



### people are doing now. I'm not clear that 9



### that's what

-- that isn't what we proposed, 10



### but it has come to our attention that that is 11



### what some people are doing now. That's not 12



### what everyone is doing now. 13



### MR. SANDERS: We don't make a lot 14



### of these cases, you know, probably next to 15



### about none. But to me that makes the mo st 16



### logical sense to step from a two

- dimensional 17



### calculation which TDA is to a three

18



### dimensional calculation down the road. So 19



### anyway, that's my comment and thank you very 20



### much. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Joe. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Thank you, Charlie. 1



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon . During 2



### the original proposals, the original review 3



### of these product classes when the first NOPRs 4



### were published that was an item of 5



### discussion. But the only thing

-- the 6



### problem was there was no database other than 7



### TDA information. And so they went wi th the 8



### industry standard for the grocery store type 9



### of equipment which is TDA. 10



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean I 11



### think really, I mean one of the reasons we 12



### have said in the past that we went with TDA, 13



### I mean that's kind of the metric you guys use 14



### to sell you r equipment, visible area, right? 15



### I mean, that's at least our understanding of 16



### it. 17



### You're not putting in your 18



### marketing literature refrigerated volume. 19



### It's how much

-- or you may be as well, but 20



### you know, it's how much can I see through it. 21



### What ca n I see my product? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Safeway doesn't really care how 1



### many yogurts you can see. They want to know 2



### -- at least depth

- wise. They want to know 3



### from the front of it what is all that my 4



### customer will be able to see and hopefully 5



### purchase. I might have gott en that wrong, 6



### but. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce? 8



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce from Zero 9



### Zone. Also, Europe was doing TDA at the 10



### time. So when AHRI got going on it is sort 11



### of looking across the pond and what do they 12



### do, and oh, okay. You know, again, not a 13



### great solution but our best solution at the 14



### time. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Neshan. 16



### MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 17



### Store Fixtures. You ask what would be 18



### recommended. What should be used at least 19



### for time being would be what was used to 20



### originally come up with the diff erent levels 21



### of energy consumption when it was done in 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### 2008. I mean, we should continue that which 1



### is basically what you have in case 1 and 2



### which is very also similar. 3



### And I think your calculation in 4



### 2008 is a little bit more liberal compared to 5



### what AHRI has. Because AHRI has restricted 6



### at least the height from the top and the 7



### bottom. They put some restriction in the 8



### doors. But the length, still this. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: You're saying A. 10



### MR. NESHAN: A, correct. Use

-- 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you stil l 12



### believe it's A in this one? 13



### MR. NESHAN: Not this one, no, 14



### no. 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: You believe it's 16



### B. 17



### MR. NESHAN: No. Let me

-- the 18



### way that it was done in 2008, the engineering 19



### analysis was the length of the case was used. 20



### The L, if I recall in th e door cases, 12.7 21



### dimension was used which is A and not the B 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### dimension. 1



### I mean, you can go, and I have a 2



### copy of it if you want for those who are 3



### interested. The dimension that was used for 4



### calculating, or at least coming up with the 5



### analysis as to wh at TDA should be. And 6



### dimension A was used. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: It seems like this 8



### is an opportunity to revise that if we wanted 9



### to, if you wanted to do it. 10



### I'm wondering if, just to ask 11



### another practical question, is there some 12



### recommendation here that makes it easier for 13



### the industry, that is significantly easier to 14



### implement? 15



### MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 16



### Store Fixtures. Yes. As I said use the 2008 17



### method of calculation. Also, what is in AHRI 18



### standard 1200. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Nick, 20



### you're sh aking your head. You agree? Does 21



### that solve your

-- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not saying 1



### the Department agrees. 2



### (Laughter) 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: But I'm

-- you can 4



### imagine the Department here is looking for 5



### something, I believe, that has a lot of 6



### breadth of app lication, right? That's going 7



### to meet a lot of different conditions

-- 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: That is one way. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN:

-- as they emerge, 10



### right? That's going to

-- go ahead. 11



### MR. HIERLMEIER: I mean there's 12



### some things that customers go in and out o f 13



### favor. We used to build our cases like 14



### scenario 2 and got pushed out of the market 15



### with that design. It just, customers didn't 16



### want to have spaces, you couldn't see through 17



### the glass door and all that. So we modified 18



### our design 15 years ago to account for it. 19



### But customers change. They may 20



### decide they like this if it saves an extra, 21



### you know, 1 percent on energy. But that's 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### what

-- some of these would just be customer 1



### driven. There wouldn't be a lot of sales at 2



### least initially because it wouldn't meet the 3



### other customer needs of displaying and 4



### selling food perhaps. 5



### So if you left it as is , some of 6



### the other ones would be less frequent. They 7



### may get out in the marketplace and may have a 8



### benefit on their energy because they've got 9



### a big fat mul lion. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Let me go in a 11



### different direction with this. So are any of 12



### these proposals, are any of them just much 13



### worse than the others that the industry would 14



### not like to see? Charlie. 15



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon. Just 16



### basic numbers there. T he industry

-- we're 17



### not heavily involved in this so I'm an 18



### outsider looking in. We have very, very 19



### little TDA

- type equipment other than open 20



### cases. But

-- and continuous cases is the 21



### big issue here. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### But I'm one that believes that if 1



### we did it in 2008, whether it be A or B, or 2



### CDE, that's where the number was generated 3



### from so just stick with it. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Tim? 5



### MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson. For 6



### VCT display cases for supermarkets the 7



### industry wants the first one where the total 8



### display area is m aximized. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: A. 10



### MR. ANDERSON: Yes. Well, the 11



### first figure where you're not

-- you don't 12



### have excessive blocking of the visible 13



### display area. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: And within figure 15



### 1. 16



### MR. ANDERSON: Yes. They're in 17



### the business of selling f ood, not necessarily 18



### saving energy. They want to sell food. So 19



### we are constantly under pressure to minimize 20



### the mullions as much as possible. 21



### Now, I'm not necessarily speaking 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### to service over counter equipment or other 1



### things. But for VCT equipment we 're always 2



### under pressure to minimize those non

- visible 3



### areas. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: So then on this 5



### scenario 1 are you an A, B, or CDE advocate? 6



### MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I think 7



### you need to go to scenario 2 because A and B 8



### are the same. 9



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the idea here 10



### is that when we provide some type of guidance 11



### it's going to be applicable to all. 12



### And I realize that 99.5 percent 13



### of the cases may look like this. But is it 14



### fair to have someone do A here where all of 15



### you have A and B the same? Or shoul d it be B 16



### where really for typical cases it makes no 17



### difference? It's the same. Your glass is at 18



### the edge of your refrigerated volume. 19



### But for those who opt to make a 20



### design where your refrigerated volume is 21



### different from the edge of your glass the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### de finition of TDA clearly says visible 1



### product area. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce. 3



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Actually, none 4



### of our cases that are joined together in the 5



### field are scenario 1 because all the doors 6



### have mullions. So the mullion, the edge of 7



### the door may ge t very near the edge of the 8



### case, but we'll still

-- that glass will 9



### still get inset an inch and a half or so on 10



### each side. 11



### So really scenario 2 is, although 12



### it's drawn a little fat, but that's really 13



### what we see with the edge of the door 14



### typically wou ld go out to A. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: So that means it 16



### should be B? 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think 18



### your refrigerated volume though is

-- right? 19



### I mean, your refrigerated boundary of your 20



### volume, doesn't that match up with

-- 21



### MR. HIERLMEIER: No. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMST RONG: It doesn't? 1



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Because the door 2



### has to be at the edge of the case and the 3



### glass starts in an inch and a half, inch and 4



### three quarters. 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 6



### MR. HIERLMEIER: So ours is more 7



### like number 2 with that line pressed up 8



### against that black edge of the door. 9



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 10



### MR. HIERLMEIER: In the industry 11



### I should say, really. For connected cases. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: B. 13



### MR. HIERLMEIER: A. We use A, 14



### but A is closer. It's up against the edge of 15



### the door. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Any additional 19



### thoughts on this before we move on? Okay. 20



### Laura, did you want to? 21



### MS. ZELINSKI: I would say

-- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Lauren, AHRI. I would say that I would agree 1



### with the A that we currently have. 2



### But if we were going to go away 3



### from that and change some of the calculations 4



### I think that the percentage of mullion might 5



### be a good way to go from AHRI's perspective. 6



### You know, to consider that A volume or TDA 7



### that we currently have, but then take away 8



### what was overlaying the refrigerated space 9



### and the mullions from inside. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 11



### Please. 12



### MS. BARHYDT: Laura Barhydt, DOE 13



### enforcement. Two related thoughts. 14



### One, everybody laughed pretty 15



### hard at scenario 3 and Ashley drew i t more 16



### dramatic to make the point. But we have 17



### actually seen a case with a very large 18



### mullion in the middle. So it's not that 19



### large and it's not those percentages, but 20



### it's not a little line either. So keep that 21



### in mind when you think about in drafting your 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### comments that that's an extreme case but it's 1



### not out of the realm of possibility. It's 2



### not something that's just completely. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I will say we 4



### drew these

-- we've seen all of them. 5



### MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 6



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the market 7



### may not like them, but they're there. 8



### MS. BARHYDT: And then the 9



### related thought is that what I'm hearing is a 10



### lot of people say we make scenario 1. A fits 11



### scenario 1. We should stick with A. 12



### And what we're saying is we agree 13



### most of the market i s scenario 1, but it's 14



### not all of the market. And so how should it 15



### be calculated for scenarios 2, 3 and 4? They 16



### do exist. And so should it be scenario

-- 17



### option A for all of those scenarios? 18



### I know that that was the 19



### assumption that when this was ori ginally 20



### written was that A and B would be pretty much 21



### equal, but they're not in all cases. And so 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### what do you do in those cases where they're 1



### not equal? 2



### And what

-- I think that what 3



### I've heard is that when you drafted it in 4



### 2008 and you said A and B ar e pretty much 5



### equal we're assuming that projected display 6



### area is equal to the length. 7



### But what happens when they're 8



### not? And you're making that assumption. So 9



### how do we interpret projected visible area 10



### where that's not the case? 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Oka y, thank you. 12



### Additional comments before we move on. 13



### So, really the Department needs 14



### your best thinking in your written comments 15



### here. 16



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, we've kind of 17



### touched on this throughout the day. This is 18



### just a really quick overview. 19



### Wha t we did was we bifurcated the 20



### existing test procedures into two appendices, 21



### Appendix A and Appendix B. Appendix A will 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### be required to be used 30 days after 1



### publication of any test procedure final rule. 2



### Appendix B is compliance state of future 3



### standards. So, as Tim likes to call it, 4



### 2017

- ish. And so just to make that clear. 5



### Charlie, do you want to do this 6



### part? 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Neshan. 8



### MR. NESHAN: Ashley, one question 9



### I have. Obviously the slides that you did 10



### not show. I mean, and this one. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: What number is it, 12



### Neshan? 13



### MR. NESHAN: This is 70. 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Figure H. 15



### MR. NESHAN: Yes, the lower one, 16



### the one that is kind of a semi horizontal. 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 18



### MR. NESHAN: The way this arrow 19



### is shown, obviously i t's not an engineering 20



### drawing, but it seems that that arrow needs 21



### to be pointing to the bottom of the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### transparent product stop and not necessarily 1



### to the middle point. 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's 3



### why we pointed out that that's where it 4



### stops. 5



### MS. WIDDER: That's the intent. 6



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 7



### MR. NESHAN: Going to the bottom. 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 9



### MR. NESHAN: Another way of doing 10



### it, to be honest with you, going to the top 11



### and then coming down. Depending how you want 12



### to, you know. 13



### M S. ARMSTRONG: That's why that's 14



### there. Right? So it's a

-- because clearly 15



### that's where it stops. 16



### MR. NESHAN: Yes, I know. But 17



### I'm saying that this could also could have 18



### easily been done. This is one area. This is 19



### another one. 20



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Ri ght. I got it. 21



### MR. NESHAN: Two different ways 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### of doing it. Thank you. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 2



### MR. LLENZA: This is Charles 3



### Llenza, Department of Energy. Just can you 4



### put that in your comments? Since you made 5



### comments here. Thank you. 6



### MR. BR OOKMAN: Okay. So, I think 7



### that's all that the Department intended to 8



### cover. Charles Llenza, do you wish to make 9



### closing remarks? 10



### For my part, thank you all. This 11



### was a very productive meeting. We covered a 12



### lot of ground here very efficiently. 13



### Cha rles. 14



### MR. LLENZA: I'm glad that you 15



### guys attended and we appreciate the comments 16



### presented today. 17



### We also want to remind everybody 18



### that written comments are the best for the 19



### Department so that we can document and then 20



### respond to all your comments ac cordingly. 21



### I wanted to provide here on this 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### slide the CRE TP web pages and the DOE 1



### contacts. As you can see the web page is up 2



### on the top and the commercial refrigeration 3



### equipment test procedure web page is the 4



### second web page. 5



### I can be contacted for commercial 6



### refrigeration issues at that link. And then 7



### Ashley Armstrong's email address is there for 8



### contacting her. 9



### I also wanted to just go back to 10



### the method of providing comments and remind 11



### everybody that to provide the docket number 12



### and the RIN nu mber, and to use the

-- what we 13



### have put here on how to submit comments for 14



### the comments for the test procedure. 15



### And once again, also to remind 16



### parties that January 13, 2014 is the comment 17



### period closing date. So thanks for 18



### attending. 19



### MR. HIERLMEI ER: I had trouble 20



### with the email address

-- 21



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, it was like 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the difference between

-- 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks 2



### Bruce. 3



### MR. LLENZA: If you have any 4



### problems use my email address and just 5



### contact me on any of these and I'll make su re 6



### everything is running properly. It should be 7



### running properly at this point. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Bruce. 9



### MR. HIERLMEIER: Are we going to 10



### have the slides here that are new? Are you 11



### going to email them all to us? 12



### MR. LLENZA: They will be posted 13



### a s soon as we get back to the office, yes. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: So thanks again. 15



### Safe travels to everyone. Hope you make it 16



### home before the snow. 17



### (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 18



### went off the record at 12:52 p.m.) 19

20

21

22

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 230** 

**A A-G-E-N-D-A**  3:8

**a.m** 1:12 4:2 110:8 110:9 161:19 ,20 **abilities** 145:2 **ability** 124:2 **able** 13:14 54:8 87:9 99:1 100:12 135:8 139:14 154:20 162:1 170:18 171:1 197:1 198:7 203:17 205:9 213:5 **absolutely** 118:22 165:17 **accept** 143:21

**access** 31:16 35:1 **accessories** 28:10 119:19 120:5 ,9 122:11
**accessory** 28:5 29:4 **account** 61:20 73:20 154:17 205:10 206:19 216:19 **accounted** 44:3 **accounts** 142:12 **accumulate** 122:22 **accurate** 33:3 96:3 **accurately** 142:12 **achievable** 168:4 **achieve** 13:12 178:15 ,18 179:13 **achieved** 160:7 176:6 **acids** 142:7 **acknowledged** 103:8 **acknowledgment** 103:15 **across-the** 159:7 **act** 55:1 **action** 174:4 **activated** 148:3 **activity** 155:19 ,22 **actual** 10:11 14:15 44:5 63:11 159:1

166:4 187:17 203:15 **add** 35:8 48:15 62:18 100:8 132:17 ,18 196:1 **add-on** 30:4 **add-ons** 24:12 ,17 **added** 19:10 20:15 39:2 101:18 122:16 123:2 **addendum** 184:13 **adding** 15:13 134:18 ,19 **addition** 18:10 65:7 76:15 101:2 117:18 **additional** 8:7 24:12 ,17 34:6 35:17 37:14 40:11 45:17 55:22 58:2 58:4 62:16 63:17 78:3 89:14 102:17 106:4 108:6 110:13 ,17 ,22 111:11 112:15 ,16 117:15 119:15 120:22 140:4 142:8 145:13 146:19 175:20 180:16 205:18 206:11 221:19 224:13 **address** 11:13 41:8 80:18 102:1 129:21 130:4 149:10 160:18 202:19 203:9 206:13 228:8 ,21 229:5 **addressed** 21:9 130:8 151:7 201:12 202:21 **adjust** 191:7 ,13 **adjustable** 138:4 139:13 **adjusted** 176:6 178:14 ,19 ,21

179:3 ,12 **administrative** 121:13 **adopt** 40:8 103:16 103:19 **adopted** 13:1 ,4 152:5 154:21 158:11 184:13 ,17 **adopting** 128:4 **advance** 185:13 **advantage** 38:8 **adverse** 137:14 **advertising** 121:2 ,9 **advocate** 219:6 **affect** 28:10 40:22 133:21 **affixed** 33:6 ,13 35:3 37:8 39:15 **after-market** 28:2 **agenda** 3:10 7:6 ,7 **ago** 195:4 216:19 **agree** 60:19 62:11 126:14 191:3 198:11 215:21 222:1 223:13 **agreed** 15:6 ,11 120:12 122:15 137:17 140:8 141:5 148:8 **agreed-upon** 141:22 147:1 **agreeing** 44:6 **agreement** 25:2 205:22 **agreements** 206:10 **agrees** 216:2 **AHAM** 13:1 184:1 **ahead** 29:17 97:15 136:7 149:3 155:8 176:1 210:16 216:11 **AHRI** 6:3 46:8 151:13 163:12 173:10 ,10 176:7 183:6 ,22 184:14 185:2 ,6 197:5 201:12 202:6

213:11 214:6 ,6 215:18 222:1 **AHRI's** 126:12 222:6 **air** 1:18 8:17 14:19 31:14 71:3 75:5 ,9 79:10 ,12 ,19 ,21 138:22 139:4 141:5 ,18 ,20 146:8 146:10 ,13 182:14 200:21 202:3 **Air-Conditioning** 2:5 **alarms** 140:11 ,14 140:22 **aligned** 18:7 **Alliance** 2:2 6:11 **allow** 102:21 124:22 139:13 205:12 **allowable** 43:4 **allowance** 51:2 205:18 **allowed** 13:11 107:3 113:10 122:22 124:17 129:14 130:10 143:13 **allowing** 154:13 175:3 **allows** 89:10 ,12 100:1 159:8 198:9 **altogether** 40:7 **ambient** 31:14 34:22 137:15 147:13 **ambiguity** 37:20 48:6 **ambiguous** 37:18 39:11 **amend** 12:6 **amended** 11:16 12:5 ,7 13:6 101:19 102:4 159:9 ,11 163:12 **amendments** 10:11 **amount** 139:22

198:20 205:8 **analyses** 190:20 **analysis** 214:20 215:6 **Anderson** 1:16 5:13 5:13 72:5 ,5 74:5 74:10 ,19 116:9 ,9 117:4 125:4 ,19 127:4 ,4 131:10 132:9 ,9 133:5 ,6 133:16 ,16 134:5 134:11 135:19 ,19 162:14 175:22 178:6 ,7 180:5 182:11 ,11 190:9 190:10 198:16 ,17 218:6 ,6 ,11 ,17 **angle** 197:10 **ANSI** 11:21 ,22 12:11

**answer** 5:6 32:5 43:13 47:22 73:4 74:4 78:4 127:22 184:8 194:10 210:3 211:7

**answers** 11:2 **anti** 137:7 145:19 **anti-sweat** 137:13 137:19 140:4 145:7 **anticlimax** 180:10 **Anwar** 2:3 84:21 **anybody** 7:8 8:5 10:1 44:14 79:15 118:9 161:11 192:19
**anymore** 36:16 55:11 124:11 136:20
**anyway** 182:21 211:20 **apologies** 162:17 **apologize** 28:21 94:22 185:12
**appears** 64:11 **appendices** 157:2

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 231** 

224:21 **appendix** 46:10 157:4 ,9 ,18 159:12 176:1 201:14 224:22 ,22 ,22 225:3 **applicabilities** 157:2 **applicability** 14:2 164:18 167:15 176:17 **applicable** 17:22 18:1 ,9 47:5 62:13 91:3 105:13 150:9 157:5 ,8 163:11 177:20 193:8 219:12 **application** 14:8 27:22 45:22 60:3 64:2 88:5 89:21 90:14 91:2 99:17 100:3 101:2 105:12 ,20 107:5 119:2 124:5 125:10 127:2 132:13 167:11 ,21 168:1 ,18 ,21 169:7 169:13 ,21 170:3 ,6 171:7 172:8 ,11 173:1 ,4 ,16 176:5 176:10 ,17 177:7 177:14 179:5 ,10 179:13 181:2 216:7 **applications** 17:10 17:11 123:9 127:9 141:19 143:6 146:3 **applied** 27:10 47:2 47:9 48:1 ,8 156:16 **applies** 20:9 82:15 125:5 169:13 ,14 **apply** 47:21 56:9 ,16 69:15 70:1 74:1 76:10 101:18 ,19 125:1 127:20 136:10 169:18

177:1 193:6 ,11 **applying** 22:7 57:3 158:15 **appreciate** 4:21 ,22 38:5 49:14 180:4 227:16 **approach** 181:1 **appropriate** 135:11 138:12 **approval** 15:16 120:18 **approved** 12:11

**area** 32:21 57:2 ,8 60:6 ,7 ,14 61:15 61:22 62:4 ,5 ,12 63:21 186:9 187:4 187:8 ,20 188:2 ,8 189:1 ,13 192:20 194:15 ,19 198:1 201:7 202:4 203:15 204:13 208:13 210:22 212:15 218:9 ,14 220:2 224:7 ,10 226:19

**areas** 29:6 139:3 186:17 189:4 ,17 194:1 ,7 ,20 196:8 200:1 201:5 204:2 219:4 **argue** 52:7 196:22 199:9 **argument** 58:10 115:5 ,6 **arguments** 8:22 **ARI** 12:19 151:13 163:10 173:10 **Armstrong** 1:17 4:14 ,15 ,16 6:14 6:14 29:20 30:12 30:18 ,22 33:15 39:5 40:4 41:4 42:7 43:15 44:2 48:16 49:2 ,17 ,21 50:4 52:1 72:22 74:8 ,15 76:2 77:1 77:16 80:9 82:12

85:6 86:16 87:7 87:12 ,17 ,20 88:2 88:10 ,15 ,20 89:4 89:8 ,10 95:3 ,8 ,13 96:2 ,10 97:1 ,4 ,11 97:13 ,14 ,16 101:14 ,17 102:11 102:18 103:7 106:10 ,17 108:1 108:13 ,19 109:3 110:19 112:2 ,4 113:1 ,9 114:5 ,15 114:20 117:6 118:16 124:12 ,19 125:2 ,16 127:22 128:13 129:16 130:7 ,13 131:5 132:3 ,19 133:9 143:14 ,16 ,18 144:6 148:13 ,19 148:21 154:6 155:8 156:12 158:22 159:3 ,6 160:20 171:12 ,15 177:16 ,18 178:4 179:8 ,15 ,18 183:8 191:11 193:10 ,21 194:5 ,12 196:3 ,18 198:11 199:7 ,21 201:1 202:12 ,20 203:3 ,8 ,16 204:6 204:16 ,20 205:3 205:21 207:7 210:2 211:7 212:11 214:12 ,16 216:1 ,9 219:10 220:18 221:1 ,6 ,10 221:18 223:4 ,7 224:17 225:15 ,18 226:3 ,7 ,9 ,14 ,21 228:22 **Armstrong's** 228:8 **Arneg** 2:1 6:1 196:13 **Arneg's** 197:18

**arose** 149:8 **arrow** 225:19 ,21

**Ashley** 1:17 4:14 ,16 6:14 29:17 32:5 41:3 44:6 48:14 72:21 96:17 97:13 106:9 112:3 132:2 143:15 163:2 ,5 183:6 192:3 222:16 225:9 228:8 **ASHRAE** 11:21 12:4 ,7 ,11 ,21 24:16 45:8 ,14 122:11 160:1 165:4 166:6 ,17 172:17 173:3 ,7 ,22 174:3 183:21 184:13 185:1 **aside** 134:16 **asked** 77:19 106:11 **asking** 78:1 114:15 118:7 129:9 179:8 194:21 **asks** 76:5 **aspect** 38:2 **ASRAC** 148:22 **associated** 26:1 151:22

**assume** 74:11 ,16 77:15 183:12 188:15 **assuming** 51:17 79:2 107:12 208:21 224:6 **assumption** 223:20 224:9 **ASTM** 46:20 47:15 **attached** 177:11 **attempt** 202:14 **attempting** 26:5 **attended** 227:16 **attending** 228:19 **attention** 121:10 211:11 **attributes** 15:1 **automatic** 138:3 ,5 139:1 154:14 157:14 158:4 ,7

**automatically** 111:13 153:5 **available** 11:6 127:10 185:21 **Avenue** 1:12

**avenues** 149:9 **average** 87:2 90:3 90:19 91:9 ,18 ,20 92:2 ,8 ,12 96:12 100:10 ,14 ,18 ,19 102:10 103:4 104:14 150:9 168:2 ,5 ,7 ,8 169:22 170:18 172:13 **avoid** 199:5

**aware** 31:1 104:12

**B B**  129:11 157:18 158:14 ,18 159:12 176:1 186:14 187:18 198:3 199:9 ,10 ,11 ,14 200:2 214:17 ,22 218:2 219:6 ,8 ,16 219:16 220:17 221:13 223:21 224:5 ,22 225:3 **back** 8:20 15:19 22:1 28:22 49:15 49:18 50:11 52:21 53:11 ,15 ,17 ,19 ,22 54:3 55:9 57:20 61:6 82:7 85:1 110:9 119:9 129:16 132:4 161:20 190:9 193:9 198:18 205:11 ,17 207:21 228:10 229:14 **backed** 111:12 113:6 ,8 **background** 152:3 167:18 169:12 206:3

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 232** 

**bad** 36:22 57:22 **badge** 109:21 **bags** 192:14 **Baltimore** 4:11 **bar** 18:18 72:18 82:9 ,10 **Barhydt** 2:8 222:13 222:13 223:6 ,9 **base** 19:19 ,22 26:4 26:18 124:2 **based** 27:18 32:1 32:17 55:6 60:6 82:21 97:22 99:8 138:10 209:12 ,14 209:20 210:22 **bases** 19:15 **basic** 27:12 ,13 ,19 28:8 120:6 138:10 153:17 ,18 ,20 154:3 168:8 ,14 ,22 169:9 ,14 170:7 ,12 172:13 175:2 217:17 **basically** 13:20 20:20 48:14 79:2 82:8 ,11 107:3 120:11 125:7 143:22 153:19 178:16 208:3 214:2 **basis** 47:7 120:19 208:18 **bathroom** 161:12 **Bauman** 1:17 6:6 ,6 28:20 ,20 29:2 ,12 29:18 30:20 41:9 41:12 ,18 42:18 43:22 44:5 ,8 48:18 ,19 49:11 ,20 50:2 60:18 ,18 74:21 79:8 80:6 **becoming** 70:15 204:9 **beginning** 161:2 183:9 **belief** 133:2 ,4 ,6 **believe** 42:16 73:15 73:21 103:18

108:6 132:19 147:8 160:11 175:10 180:7 202:18 214:13 ,16 216:6 **believes** 63:22 151:21 218:1 **belongs** 27:19 **benefit** 195:11 217:9 **Berkeley** 2:9 6:21 **best** 8:19 74:3 126:8 136:11 140:1 191:18 193:14 213:14 224:15 227:19 **better** 5:6 40:18 52:2 59:6 61:16 62:2 80:10 116:14 174:22 180:6 ,22 **beyond** 144:15 198:10 204:1 **bifurcated** 224:20 **big** 188:14 ,14 ,17 196:19 206:22 217:10 ,22 **bigger** 203:14 **bins** 22:14 **bit** 9:15 10:6 11:15 16:3 28:22 37:9 45:4 58:16 63:19 68:10 75:8 119:7 150:5 174:14 183:17 187:12 188:4 191:21 214:5 **black** 69:5 221:9 **blocking** 141:4 218:13 **blue** 67:11 ,11 **board** 132:20 159:8 **body** 121:1 ,5 146:11 **books** 81:10 157:10 181:4 **border** 62:9 **bottom** 58:22 154:5

205:11 210:6 211:1 ,5 214:8 225:22 226:8 **boundary** 186:12 186:22 187:9 188:21 189:10 220:20 **bounds** 173:3 **box** 30:4 31:2 92:7 **boxes** 10:21 121:14 **brainstorming** 198:17 **breadth** 216:7 **break** 7:17 ,20 106:4 109:3 ,6 ,7 109:13 110:13 153:20 161:8 ,9 ,11 161:15 **breaking** 64:18 **Brenda** 11:12 **bridge** 118:7 **brief** 7:6 ,9 **bring** 66:9 **brings** 94:4 **broad** 17:14 51:17 183:18 **broadly** 47:4 **Brookman** 1:12 ,15 3:13 4:3 ,10 5:9 6:22 16:10 20:12 20:16 21:19 23:19 24:1 ,18 25:3 26:7 26:11 27:4 32:14 33:18 ,22 34:3 ,6 34:11 35:10 ,16 ,19 36:11 37:13 40:20 41:6 45:17 53:4 53:15 55:21 56:5 62:15 63:13 ,16 70:11 71:5 ,11 72:21 74:20 76:3 76:16 77:8 78:10 79:7 82:5 83:1 84:18 89:2 ,14 94:9 96:16 97:5 97:13 ,15 98:16 100:7 102:16

103:22 104:4 ,7 106:1 ,15 108:10 108:16 109:1 ,5 ,10 110:10 ,21 111:22 112:3 114:10 115:13 116:1 ,4 ,8 117:2 119:3 121:17 123:4 125:3 126:2 ,19 127:15 128:10 129:10 130:4 ,9 131:1 ,7 132:2 133:10 136:15 137:4 138:14 139:10 ,17 140:3 140:21 141:8 142:17 143:3 ,15 145:13 146:6 ,15 147:7 148:4 ,11 ,17 148:20 149:2 151:4 153:7 154:2 154:11 161:16 ,21 162:16 ,22 164:15 164:21 165:12 ,15 165:20 167:9 174:1 175:18 178:2 179:20 180:2 ,9 ,12 ,15 181:7 ,11 ,19 ,22 183:1 ,4 190:5 195:1 197:3 199:20 200:10 201:8 202:13 203:1 ,6 ,12 205:4 206:9 207:4 ,9 ,18 208:22 209:9 210:15 211:22 213:8 ,16 214:10 215:8 ,20 216:4 ,10 217:11 218:5 ,10 218:15 219:5 220:3 ,16 221:13 221:17 ,19 222:11 224:12 225:8 ,12 227:2 ,7 229:2 ,9 229:15 **Bruce** 1:19 5:15

98:16 111:1 115:13 123:6 126:10 127:8 132:12 138:15 ,16 145:16 153:8 ,9 156:20 192:10 195:1 ,2 197:3 205:4 206:12 213:8 ,9 220:3 229:3 ,9 **Bruce's** 125:5 **BTU** 166:18 ,19 **BTUs** 167:2 **bucket** 117:14 **buffet** 18:18 73:14 **build** 75:14 137:1 216:14 **building** 1:11 4:9 109:22 136:19 206:20 **built** 37:3 79:9 144:11 155:14 156:10 200:21 207:13 ,14 **bullet** 116:11 **business** 218:18 **butcher** 78:19 **butchered** 96:18 **button** 118:2 **buy** 153:12 ,13 **bypassing** 131:17 **Byron** 1:20 6:4 23:19

**C C**  186:16 187:22 188:2 199:18 201:18 **cabinet** 26:14 41:1 42:2 53:16 ,18 ,22 72:16 ,17 ,19 107:17 121:1 ,3 ,5 150:7 ,11 **cabinets** 115:20 116:16 182:12 ,19 209:21

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**calculate** 77:20 81:11 187:13 ,18 189:17 208:17 209:5 210:22 **calculated** 41:22 185:18 186:11 191:19 193:16 196:7 210:19 211:5 223:16 **calculating** 55:8 188:20 209:16 211:2 215:5 **calculation** 23:8 ,14 41:1 ,5 ,10 ,16 42:9 193:17 211:18 ,19 214:4 215:18 **calculations** 164:9 208:19 222:4 **call** 161:13 190:18 225:4 **capability** 117:14 117:18 123:22 **capable** 20:4 66:2 ,6 86:19 91:11 92:13 93:6 ,14 ,18 ,20 98:8 ,14 105:4 116:12 ,14 ,21 172:1 ,5 ,14 177:6 **capacities** 51:5 **capacity** 21:14 25:13 42:20 ,22 **capture** 200:21 **captured** 142:16 152:2

**care** 42:14 100:17 146:5 213:1 **careful** 205:19 **carefully** 63:4 209:18 **carried** 166:14 167:7 **carries** 165:5

**case** 26:16 48:4 53:9 54:7 55:7 63:11 71:20 83:21 86:13 ,14 87:9 88:6 ,13 99:22 105:1 ,7 ,10 ,13

107:22 117:5 118:14 ,15 ,20 ,21 119:1 121:10 ,11 122:8 124:8 132:22 140:14 145:10 146:11 150:10 151:21 152:18 153:5 ,11 153:14 ,18 ,19 154:2 ,19 157:16 164:6 166:20 170:13 ,15 176:4 176:19 177:5 ,11 177:12 ,15 ,19 180:19 ,19 181:18 182:18 184:1 186:8 188:4 ,5 189:2 191:7 194:4 195:11 ,12 ,16 199:1 ,9 202:2 206:22 207:21 208:7 214:2 ,20 220:9 221:3 222:18 223:1 224:11

**cases** 22:2 29:7 31:3 31:4 32:13 46:2 ,3 46:4 55:20 56:11 56:12 ,12 60:4 99:4 ,19 118:12 123:21 125:6 ,7 ,11 126:1 ,14 ,21 127:18 128:11 131:3 ,15 132:5 ,6 137:9 ,12 138:8 171:3 176:18 180:20 181:3 ,14 182:3 ,5 ,14 192:6 193:6 ,7 195:6 ,9 199:10 200:18 ,20 205:8 206:21 207:12 209:12 210:21 211:15 214:21 216:14 217:21 ,21 218:7 219:14 ,17 220:5 221:12 223:22

224:1 **categories** 38:19 116:5 **categorization** 28:13 **category** 107:20

**cause** 94:6 150:17 150:18 161:3

**causes** 150:4 **causing** 39:10 126:16 **cautionary** 207:20 **caveat** 128:2 159:6 207:7 **CC&E** 119:22 **CDE** 202:15 218:3 219:6 **CDEC** 151:15 166:2 ,7 **ceiling** 205:12 ,18 **cell** 8:14 **cellars** 96:19 ,22 97:5 **center** 69:15 83:16 **certain** 12:8 14:5 ,6 14:8 ,10 15:1 24:14 ,14 51:16 83:21 120:5 144:7 146:1 155:13 169:14 171:18 185:18 197:19 ,20 **certainly** 116:15 ,18 127:5 133:5 134:5 145:17 165:9 167:1 ,6 **certification** 14:18 81:3 164:19 **certified** 27:15 28:8 105:6 128:12 163:8 ,22 164:7 170:2 **certify** 30:6 107:9 159:12 168:13 ,18 **cetera** 130:3 **CFR** 19:9 20:15 34:19 45:10 47:10 56:9 ,21 64:17

65:15 68:11 85:18 173:13 201:16 **challenging** 205:6 **change** 45:7 ,10 94:15 112:18 115:11 142:15 174:11 191:2 ,3 204:3 216:20 222:4 **changed** 123:19 **changes** 51:1 111:6 144:18 **changing** 63:19 64:15 106:12 112:20 **Charity** 96:17 **Charles** 1:21 3:17 4:6 9:18 ,19 10:3 227:3 ,9 ,14 **Charlie** 1:19 5:19 16:14 20:16 ,17 24:9 26:11 ,12 27:3 33:12 36:21 37:14 ,15 ,16 39:13 45:4 50:18 52:12 55:13 57:10 60:5 60:19 62:16 ,17 68:16 69:9 70:12 75:7 78:7 ,10 94:9 94:10 107:11 114:12 117:9 144:9 155:10 174:1 ,2 175:6 200:10 ,11 203:19 212:1 ,2 217:15 ,16 219:7 225:6 **Charlie's** 60:21 61:14 74:22 201:10 **check** 161:13 165:6 **chef** 19:15 ,19 ,22 26:4 **chef's** 26:17 **chest** 199:13 **chilled** 17:6 **chiller** 98:4 **Chillers** 97:1 ,2

**choose** 103:13 ,14 153:12 **circuits** 74:7 **circumstance** 69:10 **clarification** 19:3 27:8 29:5 30:21 35:21 41:15 63:22 108:7 122:16 149:8 151:8 157:21 159:16 163:4 171:5 ,13 172:3 183:14 **clarifications** 4:1 7:19 15:6 16:18 16:20 119:15 163:6 167:20 **clarifies** 17:21 65:1 155:4 **clarify** 19:12 34:17 46:15 49:1 50:1 ,5 54:7 56:19 59:5 64:14 78:4 90:14 92:5 94:18 96:1 96:14 108:15 152:11 164:9 ,14 172:7 182:21 184:2 ,18 204:11 **clarifying** 133:4 167:11 **clarity** 68:12 202:14 206:10 **class** 27:18 28:16 32:2 ,8 67:6 91:5 168:17 **classes** 67:16 94:7 104:16 105:5 ,6 115:19 116:13 212:4 **classification** 20:19 21:1 38:9 70:5 78:12 90:9 **classifying** 59:1 **clean** 37:3 **clear** 12:9 31:6 32:10 34:2 40:14 46:1 50:6 55:9

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 234** 

56:8 72:8 ,9 78:13 81:10 83:16 92:22 97:22 98:11 103:1 118:2 129:17 148:15 ,18 164:4 172:10 173:17 ,20 175:20 180:22 183:17 194:6 203:10 206:10 210:11 211:9 225:5 **clearly** 31:7 33:4 201:13 209:2 210:9 220:1 226:15 **clears** 68:9 **close** 8:4 15:18 196:14 ,15 **closed** 22:13 30:2 ,5 30:7 ,19 31:3 ,4 ,13 31:15 32:13 45:20 46:2 ,3 ,3 56:11 ,11 56:17 ,17 ,21 ,21 ,22 57:6 63:20 66:17 67:3 ,9 ,12 ,14 ,15 68:5 70:2 ,3 78:17 83:20 85:22 86:1 153:6 155:18 157:17 **closely** 184:22 185:2 **closer** 221:15 **closes** 10:19 **closest** 168:2 **closing** 4:5 8:4 23:1 227:10 228:18 **coated** 142:4 ,5 ,13 143:11 144:2 ,10 144:21 ,22 145:10 **coating** 54:4 142:8 **code** 136:5 ,9 **codes** 134:2 ,9 136:21 **codification** 147:15 **codifications** 120:12 **codified** 15:7 46:15 **codify** 16:20

**coffee** 109:16 ,20 **Coffee's** 110:1 **coil** 143:11 ,11 144:2 **coils** 75:4 142:4 ,4 ,5 142:13 ,13 144:10 144:21 145:7 ,8 **cold** 98:18 99:2 ,5 ,7 200:21 **colder** 174:14 175:9 176:8 **Collin** 2:4 4:2 6:18 54:19 100:7 119:12 **color** 67:11 **column** 69:16 85:19 **combined** 88:8

**come** 15:20 74:18 80:17 108:20 121:21 122:3 ,5 135:15 137:9 146:17 147:10 156:17 186:20 205:22 211:11 213:21

**comes** 36:14 39:21 158:16 187:10 202:3 **coming** 4:18 73:16 76:4 81:6 154:13 189:20 215:5 226:12 **comment** 10:19 11:14 15:17 ,18 20:8 ,9 24:20 ,21 25:17 ,19 28:17 ,18 33:8 34:9 35:13 36:18 40:21 44:6 68:12 80:7 82:7 94:8 102:1 105:15 105:16 106:2 110:15 114:11 115:14 121:14 127:16 130:1 131:10 141:9 149:10 155:7 164:17 165:2

173:14 176:11 181:4 190:6 ,7 210:14 ,17 211:20 228:17 **commentary** 110:5 **comments** 8:20 9:13 10:14 11:8 15:19 16:11 31:7 34:7 35:16 ,17 37:14 38:6 40:5 40:11 ,12 42:5 43:12 ,16 45:18 50:9 ,17 56:1 ,2 60:3 62:16 63:15 76:13 80:14 88:13 89:15 100:6 102:19 103:18 106:4 108:8 121:15 ,18 ,18 123:4 125:5 126:6 126:7 127:15 130:18 131:8 138:14 140:4 ,21 142:17 ,18 145:14 146:15 147:7 151:4 153:7 162:9 162:10 164:15 ,16 164:21 175:20 176:22 180:16 ,22 183:10 206:8 ,12 223:1 224:13 ,15 227:5 ,6 ,16 ,19 ,21 228:11 ,14 ,15 **commercial** 1:3 4:6 10:9 11:18 12:17 12:18 13:11 14:18 15:2 16:22 17:2 17:15 ,19 18:2 ,4 18:20 19:13 ,16 20:1 21:8 25:22 26:9 27:12 ,14 28:14 31:12 34:21 48:13 64:1 ,4 ,6 ,8 64:15 ,19 ,20 65:8 65:10 ,11 ,20 ,21 66:11 ,13 67:4 ,17 67:18 ,20 ,22 ,22

68:7 ,8 ,14 ,14 70:1 71:21 75:14 77:13 79:3 83:10 ,17 90:20 91:10 ,22 92:13 ,17 ,18 ,18 93:1 ,4 ,8 ,11 ,16 95:17 96:19 ,21 97:3 ,7 ,9 104:10 104:10 ,13 ,21 ,21 105:8 ,9 ,19 ,20 119:22 152:16 168:13 ,15 169:15 186:21 188:6 192:6 228:3 ,6

**common** 69:8 ,10 70:16 127:19 **commonly** 71:14 **Company** 1:19
**compare** 195:8 **compared** 214:5 **comparison** 27:16 **compartment** 13:2 69:22 72:13 77:6 81:17 ,18 ,22 82:1 85:1 91:20 93:17 93:19 **compartment's** 70:17 **compartments** 65:13 ,18 66:1 69:7 ,20 75:10 83:12 85:11 93:5 93:13 **compatible** 138:12 **competitors** 195:6 **complete** 8:13 72:17 **completed** 174:5 **completely** 121:6 122:1 145:19 146:20 223:3 **complex** 206:15 **compliance** 4:19 14:9 27:16 31:20 31:22 101:7 102:3 158:19 170:17 225:3

**compliant** 30:7 107:10 114:8 115:7 116:2 124:14 **complicated** 89:16 208:16 **comply** 159:11 172:15 **complying** 134:8 **component** 31:11 32:19 33:7 66:2 ,5 66:18 81:16 ,17 117:5 204:9 206:16 ,17 207:1 **components** 14:7 41:21 67:5 68:2 68:18 ,19 ,22 80:11 120:4 ,8 151:17 182:17 195:22 **composite** 18:14 188:16
**compressor** 147:11 **concept** 79:3

**concern** 57:11 116:15 155:12 **concerned** 52:14 71:4 **concise** 8:17 **concludes** 149:5 **concreteness** 150:6 **concurring** 136:18 **condensate** 121:20 121:22 122:18 ,21 123:12 ,15 ,16 125:7 ,10 126:15 127:13 129:15 130:10 131:11 ,14 132:7 ,22 134:19 135:17 137:11 **condenser** 141:2 142:5 **condensers** 177:10 **condensing** 98:19 98:22 99:11 ,12 116:19 122:8 141:12 176:2

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 235** 

182:8 ,15 **condition** 160:14 **conditioning** 1:18 14:19 138:22 **conditions** 78:18 ,21 92:21 123:1 137:14 139:7 147:13 148:2 160:6 216:8 **conduct** 12:13 **conducts** 171:6 **configuration** 14:6 83:3 85:14 113:13 **configurations** 17:9 **confirmation** 147:2 **conflict** 55:3 **confused** 65:5 69:11 70:9 103:2 **confusing** 44:22 168:10 169:10 **confusion** 34:14 64:12 74:21 **connect** 116:18 135:8 **connected** 147:4 221:12 **connecting** 133:14 133:17 134:8 135:2 **connection** 133:19 135:9 ,18

**consensus** 15:4 120:13 **conservation** 14:3 19:7 101:8 **conservative** 103:10 ,12 174:16 175:8 ,12 ,16 **consider** 8:22 36:19 63:4 81:22 102:19 102:20 117:17 167:6 197:22 210:13 222:7 **consideration** 8:9 33:10 75:21 **considerations** 42:1 42:19 **considered** 24:6

32:19 36:6 79:14 79:14 ,22 82:11 84:5 96:4 174:6 197:13 **considering** 42:1 ,21 62:9 76:14 **considers** 31:18 **consistency** 12:7 169:8 **consistent** 165:13 168:22 171:10 175:3 181:1 201:21 202:6 ,10 **consistently** 23:17 172:14 **consisting** 65:12 ,22 **constantly** 218:20 **constitute** 152:13 **constructive** 55:22 **Consulting** 2:4

**consumer** 17:3 **consumption** 77:21 151:14 ,22 163:16 209:6 213:22 **consumptive** 112:10 **contact** 229:6 **contacted** 228:6 **contacting** 228:9 **contacts** 4:5 228:2 **contain** 22:11 **contained** 17:12 60:13 99:11 126:1 147:5 **containing** 187:19 **contains** 15:10 72:12 **contaminants** 146:10 **continue** 214:1 **continues** 128:10 129:10 209:13 **continuous** 186:14 187:19 188:22 189:13 217:21 **control** 118:19 138:4 144:16 ,17

147:19 150:22 152:15 158:5 ,7 **controlled** 150:21 **controller** 138:7 ,9 138:13 174:13 ,14 174:18 175:9 **controllers** 174:9 174:11 **controlling** 176:3 **controls** 139:2 152:7 ,8 ,22 153:4 154:14 ,21 157:15 158:2 ,10 **controversy** 141:8 **conventional** 21:8 **conversation** 9:10 9:16 162:7 **conversations** 8:16 **convincing** 12:9 **cook** 20:5 25:15 **cooking** 20:3 25:6 ,9 25:14 26:19 134:22 **cooler** 179:4 **coolers** 70:17 75:7 **cooling** 52:16 75:2 75:4 177:5
**copy** 186:1 215:3 **cord** 38:14 **Corporation** 1:16 1:23 5:14 **correct** 36:4 ,8 53:18 79:5 83:6 87:5 ,14 95:8 108:2 116:7 143:14 ,16 144:5 159:3 196:20 214:11 **correlation** 195:5 **corrosion** 142:10 **cost** 111:16 112:16 112:22 **costs** 134:20 **counsel** 6:13 **count** 184:5 ,15 203:17 **counted** 74:13

**counter** 53:8 54:21 55:15 72:16 73:11 74:11 78:15 117:22 118:10 193:8 219:1 **counting** 200:2 **couple** 161:1 187:14 **courier** 11:12

**course** 42:5 53:13 92:4

**cover** 43:11 ,16 44:1 44:18 ,19 64:6 162:11 203:21 207:3 227:9 **coverage** 98:12 **covered** 8:8 18:16 19:6 25:9 26:8 27:5 72:13 73:15 74:1 96:20 97:19 119:10 162:11 163:16 227:12 **covering** 44:12 **coverings** 48:7

**covers** 17:14 141:10 **crank** 171:20 **crankcase** 147:9 ,16 147:20 148:3 ,7 ,9 148:11 **CRE** 12:15 18:8 31:17 65:18 104:18 120:6 121:21 146:17 147:10 152:1 228:1 **CRE's** 17:21 19:4

**cream** 91:15 92:20 93:22 94:12 95:21 95:21 96:5 ,6 128:19 **create** 134:14 ,15 **created** 190:18 **creating** 81:4 **credit** 156:17 **criteria** 31:22 54:9

**cross** 107:13 **crossover** 71:3

**current** 12:15 13:3 14:3 18:21 34:16 65:8 70:6 129:18 163:9 209:11 210:7 **currently** 17:20 19:6 46:6 ,13 ,18 64:6 ,17 76:9 ,18 92:2 151:9 156:7 167:18 ,22 222:2 ,8 **curtain** 32:18 33:2 202:3 **curtains** 33:13 ,16 33:18 35:9 37:7 39:2

**curve** 155:14

**curves** 156:10 **customer** 53:13 79:20 111:13 120:21 124:2 ,7 127:6 213:5 217:1 217:4 **customers** 111:19 112:22 123:7 125:15 138:21 139:7 153:12 216:13 ,16 ,20 **cut** 61:9 108:5 117:11 123:9 196:2 **cutoff** 61:1 **cuts** 53:11

**D D**  46:10 186:16 187:22 188:2 199:19 201:14 ,18 **D.C** 1:12 4:9 **daily** 77:21 208:18 **damaging** 124:3 **Dane** 1:18 5:21 ,21 **dark** 52:15 **data** 165:4 ,4 195:5 195:17 **database** 212:7 **date** 14:9 15:21

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 236** 

16:7 102:4 159:1 228:18 **day** 7:3 102:10 163:18 ,19 164:3 166:3 224:18 **days** 16:7 161:22 225:1 **deal** 42:17 51:2 156:1 191:22 **December** 1:8 4:8 12:16 **decide** 40:8 ,8 135:16 210:11 216:21 **decided** 145:4 **decides** 184:8 **deciding** 145:12 **decimal** 165:5 166:15 ,17 ,20 **deemed** 160:10 **deeper** 195:12 **default** 156:12 203:5 **define** 26:5 56:14 59:16 68:21 71:8 173:4 175:1 201:17 **defined** 25:16 33:20 34:15 64:17 65:14 71:16 92:1 93:21 97:8 ,10 104:17 117:10 160:6 176:7 193:18 **defines** 167:22 **defining** 64:21 71:20 **definitely** 33:5 70:21 199:8 **definition** 14:5 16:21 ,22 17:14 19:19 ,20 20:9 ,13 20:15 21:2 ,20 24:20 25:6 ,18 27:12 31:18 32:17 32:20 34:18 35:13 35:17 36:20 ,22 37:15 38:22 39:3 39:4 ,6 40:9 46:2

46:10 47:11 ,17 ,21 48:1 ,22 49:4 50:12 54:11 ,15 ,21 55:7 56:7 ,9 ,10 57:4 59:11 61:15 61:17 62:1 ,18 64:15 ,19 65:8 66:4 ,7 ,12 67:2 ,17 67:18 ,19 ,20 68:4 68:7 ,17 70:6 73:8 75:21 91:17 92:20 92:22 93:3 ,15 94:1 ,1 95:6 ,11 ,16 97:7 ,9 98:13 99:18 104:20 168:12 169:10 173:16 175:21 180:17 193:22 194:8 ,20 196:7 220:1 **definitions** 3:19 7:16 16:19 36:3 45:1 ,21 56:8 ,20 57:11 63:20 64:1 64:18 65:3 ,6 68:1 68:11 ,13 70:2 71:10 72:7 73:1 76:8 ,10 ,15 90:12 92:6 ,16 96:14 97:22 104:9 105:16 ,17 ,19 ,21 106:6 108:11 109:2 110:15 ,16 **definitive** 52:7 **deflect** 141:18 **degree** 70:19 ,21 **degrees** 66:3 ,6 ,19 66:19 68:3 ,19 69:17 71:19 87:10 87:11 91:13 ,15 93:2 ,7 ,10 ,14 ,19 93:20 95:18 ,22 100:11 ,13 ,16 ,18 103:5 104:19 ,20 105:11 168:6 169:2 ,20 170:2 ,9 170:11 ,13 ,19

171:1 174:17 ,20 175:14 176:8 179:3 ,7 ,9 ,9 ,10 **deli** 146:22 **deliberate** 15:19 **depart** 109:11 **Department** 1:1 ,17 1:21 2:3 ,8 4:5 ,18 8:21 9:2 11:1 13:4 30:22 45:6 48:3 56:3 59:17 62:19 63:22 64:14 65:7 66:14 106:7 117:16 165:8 167:15 175:1 184:3 189:20 191:13 201:16 202:9 ,21 209:13 216:2 ,5 224:14 227:4 ,8 ,20 **Department's** 31:3 188:10 201:20 ,22 202:15 206:4 **depend** 128:14 **depending** 107:5 153:21 200:5 226:12 **depends** 59:8 89:5 98:19 196:14 ,19 **depth** 195:10 211:6 **depth-wise** 213:3 **describe** 23:11 ,13 **describes** 90:18 **describing** 60:5 89:11 ,13 181:1 **description** 7:15 **descriptions** 200:18 **descriptive** 52:8 56:2 **descriptor** 33:19 **design** 26:3 61:1 ,4 106:21 112:18 ,21 135:10 ,15 136:6 ,7 136:11 144:16 193:1 216:16 ,19 219:21 **designed** 17:3 ,4 ,9

20:2 21:4 26:15 35:1 62:14 95:17 99:3 147:11 182:5 186:22 **designing** 60:20 ,21 136:8 **designs** 52:16 95:19 207:3 ,4 **desired** 140:16 **details** 196:6 **deterioration** 142:10 **determination** 82:14 198:14 **determine** 28:15 48:2 ,4 ,8 49:5 52:5 70:4 82:20 86:6 ,9 90:8 **determined** 11:18 32:1 47:14 56:7 56:14 91:21 **determines** 85:15 **determining** 46:4 ,9 46:17 ,21 ,22 47:5 82:16 98:12 **developed** 11:20 75:17 **development** 4:17 **device** 134:4 145:3 **devices** 141:11 ,14 149:15 151:10 **dew** 176:6 178:14 178:15 ,15 ,19 ,21 178:22 179:3 ,6 ,9 179:12 **diagrams** 201:14 ,15 206:5 **difference** 30:1 43:19 ,21 51:5 59:21 62:20 70:19 88:22 96:3 98:11 134:18 187:10 194:14 ,17 195:18 199:14 219:18 229:1 **differences** 59:19 192:2

**different** 26:3 32:12 43:3 49:19 65:14 65:19 66:21 67:6 67:11 68:2 69:21 72:1 75:8 82:2 83:5 ,11 ,12 ,14 84:4 ,14 85:3 ,12 88:17 89:7 ,20 99:2 102:9 117:8 128:11 129:1 ,3 ,8 129:13 130:5 ,21 153:17 ,21 154:10 157:2 177:21 181:3 186:4 ,10 187:14 196:4 213:21 216:8 217:12 219:22 226:22 **differentiate** 19:18 25:21 72:3 84:16 106:11 **differentiating** 46:2 **differentiation** 46:1 64:12 76:14 **differentiator** 86:8 **difficult** 22:3 45:6 81:5 173:20 192:21 **digits** 167:1 ,7 **dim** 127:13 **dimension** 199:3 202:8 ,10 209:16 211:6 214:22 215:1 ,4 ,7 **dimensional** 211:19 **dimensions** 198:9 202:11 204:3 210:19 **dimmed** 152:10 **direct** 51:8 139:4 197:16 **directed** 141:20 **direction** 54:9 ,10 54:14 62:3 200:15 201:4 217:12 **directions** 54:17

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 237** 

200:14 **directly** 45:10 47:19 135:3 **directs** 11:17 **disable** 157:16 **disabled** 150:4 ,12 151:2 **disagree** 86:16 **disaster** 38:1 **discover** 51:15 **discretion** 39:12 118:18 **discuss** 120:7 **discussed** 35:7 104:11 105:18 128:16 148:8 157:6 ,20 169:14 201:5 **discusses** 151:8 **discussing** 90:1 92:17 180:21 201:11 **discussion** 5:8 69:12 131:4 137:7 144:10 146:8 161:3 167:13 185:8 186:3 ,4 188:15 191:17 196:12 199:18 207:22 209:8 ,19 212:6 **discussions** 14:22 125:21 **dispensing** 95:21 **display** 23:2 53:9 60:6 ,7 ,14 83:21 87:9 120:21 137:8 166:20 181:14 198:1 200:19 201:7 202:4 208:7 208:14 218:7 ,9 ,14 224:6 **displaying** 95:20 217:4 **displays** 140:11 ,12 140:22 **dissipate** 123:12 **distance** 127:14

197:19 **distinct** 108:5 **distinction** 43:18 **distinctive** 33:19 **distinguish** 30:1 **distribute** 79:12 **divide** 157:1 **divides** 156:22 **docket** 10:16 11:9 228:12 **document** 11:5 42:14 47:4 ,5 50:11 184:15 185:21 227:20 **documentation** 48:21 **documented** 130:17 **documents** 44:10 46:19 **DOE** 6:13 ,15 12:6 12:13 ,16 13:1 ,5 13:18 14:2 ,10 ,16 15:3 17:17 ,19 18:9 ,12 ,15 19:17 20:8 ,10 22:4 ,7 ,19 23:5 ,10 27:15 31:10 ,18 32:3 34:13 ,17 45:20 46:14 ,16 ,18 ,20 47:4 ,11 56:7 ,14 56:16 ,19 68:11 72:10 ,13 77:19 81:15 89:21 90:6 90:11 ,22 91:22 92:5 ,15 99:14 100:17 101:3 102:21 103:3 ,5 104:12 105:3 ,16 116:12 121:12 123:13 128:4 129:21 137:18 141:15 146:14 147:3 148:1 149:14 150:13 151:9 ,21 152:5 ,11 159:7 ,19 160:11 163:4 ,9 ,21 164:1

164:8 ,12 ,13 167:22 169:3 ,18 170:15 171:6 172:7 ,19 173:7 ,14 176:20 177:21 181:4 184:10 ,16 184:16 206:14 222:13 228:1 **DOE's** 16:18 ,22 18:1 ,5 ,8 ,21 25:10 27:9 28:13 31:20 33:5 39:12 40:14 64:5 97:19 101:7 163:22 173:12 183:13 184:11 **doing** 193:15 209:22 211:9 ,12 211:13 213:10 226:10 227:1 **dollar** 135:22 **dollars** 132:17 **door** 22:12 23:1 ,21 31:11 ,17 32:10 ,18 32:20 33:3 34:15 34:19 ,19 36:1 ,6 36:15 37:2 40:1 ,2 40:14 ,15 ,16 44:21 45:11 ,11 ,12 46:5 47:19 ,21 48:5 50:22 51:6 ,6 ,21 52:18 53:19 55:2 55:6 58:2 59:12 60:22 61:7 ,16 62:1 ,2 ,4 ,9 ,20 ,21 62:22 63:1 ,5 ,6 ,7 63:10 67:12 68:3 68:5 ,20 ,21 70:2 78:17 83:21 113:7 137:9 140:4 153:6 157:14 ,16 192:6 192:14 ,19 193:6 ,7 197:7 203:20 ,21 204:1 ,22 206:21 206:21 207:15 209:7 ,21 210:1 ,21 214:21 216:18 220:8 ,14 221:2 ,9

221:16 **doored** 20:21 41:17 57:14 ,15 **doors** 17:8 ,8 20:22 21:7 23:12 28:2 ,4 28:9 29:3 ,7 ,10 ,15 30:3 ,5 ,13 31:1 ,9 31:19 32:2 ,7 35:5 35:6 36:22 37:1 37:18 38:11 ,12 44:12 ,12 ,13 ,15 ,15 44:16 ,17 ,19 ,19 ,20 45:20 51:4 53:11 55:7 56:12 ,13 57:1 ,2 ,7 ,9 ,16 ,19 57:21 58:17 ,20 ,21 59:15 60:8 61:5 61:20 62:5 ,5 66:16 69:21 70:7 79:18 83:17 85:11 85:14 137:8 145:20 153:4 193:9 203:14 204:9 205:15 209:4 214:9 220:6 **double-doored** 55:16 **Doug** 1:12 ,15 3:13 4:10 16:14 119:14 **downside** 202:15 203:13 **draft** 45:13 ,14 **drafted** 224:4 **drafting** 222:22 **drain** 122:7 124:3 127:10 137:2 **drainage** 127:2 **draining** 135:1 ,3 ,6 **drains** 123:10 132:18 136:20 **dramatic** 222:17 **draw** 38:14 81:15 117:19 ,20 **drawer** 29:8 31:21 36:14 41:13 ,20 42:3 43:8 ,17 ,19 44:20 45:11 ,12

**drawered** 41:16 42:10 **drawers** 19:14 20:21 21:7 29:9 29:15 30:9 ,13 31:9 ,19 32:1 ,7 ,11 35:6 ,15 37:22 38:14 40:2 ,16 41:1 43:1 44:13 44:17 45:20 **drawing** 80:13 121:9 225:21 **drawn** 220:13 **drew** 206:5 222:16 223:5 **drift** 114:18 **drifting** 114:21 **driven** 217:2 **drop** 51:19 57:21 59:11 **drops** 57:18 **dry** 117:12 122:18 **dual** 70:15 75:17 84:22 111:4 ,20 114:21 117:13 118:12 ,14 **due** 109:6 111:16 137:13 151:20 **dummy** 174:13 175:8 **duration** 152:21

**E E**  186:16 187:22 188:3 199:19 201:18 **E1084-86(2009)** 47:15 **earlier** 117:9 126:11 129:18 132:12 157:7 167:13 **early** 7:2 159:9 ,11 **easier** 74:9 215:13 215:14 **easily** 226:19

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 238** 

**echo** 125:4 126:10 **edge** 186:13 ,13 204:1 208:4 ,6 219:19 ,22 220:7 ,8 220:14 221:3 ,9 ,15 **editorial** 94:19 **Edwards** 11:12 **effect** 12:3 131:12 **effective** 16:7 128:3 128:8 **effectively** 50:20 123:1 124:1 **effects** 150:18 **efficiency** 2:2 6:11 115:20 175:17 **efficient** 175:17 **efficiently** 227:13 **efforts** 4:20 **egregious** 188:5 **either** 26:17 76:10 169:5 184:13 192:15 202:2 222:21 **electric** 122:4 135:12 147:10 **electrical** 133:18 ,18 134:2 ,3 ,9 ,13 ,16 134:20 ,21 146:18 **elevator** 110:2 **eliminate** 208:1 ,15 **eliminates** 124:1 **eliminating** 208:2 **email** 10:17 11:11 161:13 228:8 ,21 229:5 ,12 **emerge** 216:10 **Emily** 119:8 126:4 126:6 **EMS** 150:11 **enable** 150:13 **enabled** 140:19 150:17 158:8
**encourage** 5:3 8:19 10:13 60:1 100:4 **ends** 110:1 128:4 **energized** 145:17 157:11 ,22 **energy** 1:1 ,17 ,21

2:2 ,3 ,8 6:11 9:3 13:10 14:3 18:14 19:7 28:10 43:4 45:7 51:1 ,1 ,12 74:12 77:21 101:7 111:11 ,12 ,15 113:6 115:12 123:16 ,17 ,20 ,21 124:18 ,21 ,22 131:19 140:1 144:21 145:2 ,7 146:1 ,4 149:13 ,20 150:6 151:14 ,22 152:14 ,18 153:21 154:13 ,22 158:4 163:16 166:13 ,14 166:16 175:12 195:8 ,18 205:8 ,12 205:16 ,17 206:16 209:5 213:22 216:22 217:9 218:19 227:4 **Energy's** 4:5 **enforcement** 169:4 222:14 **engineer** 136:6 **engineering** 195:17 214:19 225:20

**ensure** 12:6 **entertain** 206:14 **entire** 73:20 122:19 186:14 187:19 189:13 **entirety** 122:12 **environment** 34:22 146:22 **environments** 21:5 142:6 **EPCA** 11:16 12:4
**epoxy** 142:9 **equal** 47:13 91:13 91:14 203:10 223:22 224:2 ,6 ,7 **equates** 178:22 **equating** 30:12 **equip** 137:12 **equipment** 1:3 4:7

10:10 11:18 12:3 12:18 13:11 14:4 14:20 15:3 17:1 17:15 ,19 18:3 ,4 ,9 18:14 ,17 ,20 19:5 19:10 ,14 ,17 ,18 20:1 ,4 ,10 21:3 ,6 ,9 22:4 ,8 ,17 ,22 23:16 25:6 ,7 ,8 ,11 25:14 26:1 ,2 ,8 ,10 27:2 ,10 ,13 ,14 ,18 28:1 ,3 ,14 ,15 29:3 31:22 32:2 ,6 ,8 ,11 34:22 48:10 ,13 56:15 ,22 57:7 60:13 64:2 ,3 ,13 64:20 65:11 ,14 ,19 65:22 66:17 67:7 67:13 70:5 72:11 83:5 ,11 ,12 ,15 84:2 ,3 ,8 ,16 85:16 85:20 86:6 ,12 90:2 ,9 ,10 ,20 91:1 91:5 ,11 92:1 ,16 93:4 ,12 94:4 ,7 97:8 98:18 99:9 100:3 101:4 ,10 104:13 ,16 105:3 ,5 105:6 ,22 111:9 ,10 111:18 114:18 116:12 ,13 ,21 118:18 119:18 120:1 ,4 123:8 ,14 123:18 124:4 125:15 131:12 ,13 131:21 133:14 134:8 137:1 139:9 139:14 ,22 140:13 140:18 146:20 152:17 163:16 168:4 ,14 ,15 ,17 169:15 170:4 176:2 178:12 186:22 188:7 193:4 ,13 212:10 212:15 217:20 219:1 ,2 228:4

**equipped** 122:3 ,5 138:11 141:3 146:17 158:1 ,9 **equivalent** 28:8

**error** 94:16 ,19 **especially** 26:17 52:10 80:22 107:16 118:13 **essentially** 107:1 190:19 **establish** 34:18 37:6 56:20 68:10 90:11 99:18 **established** 12:16 13:7 18:10 46:18 50:12 91:16 93:9 101:3 **establishing** 19:18 36:19 152:7 **et** 130:3 **Europe** 213:10 **evaluated** 90:21 **evaluating** 13:10 **evaluation** 12:13 **evaporate** 137:10 **evaporating** 116:20 **evaporator** 75:4 ,11 100:15 142:4 182:13 **everybody** 193:3 222:15 227:18 228:12 **exactly** 77:22 84:2 **example** 18:11 23:9 48:3 60:7 ,21 67:7 67:13 70:12 72:15 76:17 77:21 79:6 83:15 ,16 ,20 84:9 85:10 88:16 104:18 146:22 150:3 169:1 170:5 170:7 176:13 ,13 177:20 178:9 ,11 186:18 188:9 204:12 **examples** 19:6 66:10 192:1

**exception** 125:13 133:7 153:3 157:13 181:17 **excessive** 218:13 **exchanger** 177:4 **exclude** 20:11 **excluded** 98:9 198:21 **excluding** 33:16 61:20 **exclusion** 35:9 37:6 39:1 **exclusive** 13:21 **exclusively** 107:21 **exempted** 133:7 **exhibit** 190:12 **exist** 58:17 223:17 **existing** 94:1 121:8 132:14 142:11 224:21 **exists** 76:19 105:2
**exogenous** 121:6 **expanded** 25:18 ,20 **expected** 137:14 **expecting** 114:2
**expense** 139:6 **explain** 29:13 74:2 102:13 103:20 108:14 130:3 132:4 **explaining** 199:13 **explanation** 137:21 175:19 **explanations** 49:14 **explicit** 35:8 39:1 142:14 151:20 **explicitly** 46:15 64:21 173:6 ,11
**exposure** 142:7
**express** 20:2 **expressed** 163:17 **extended** 203:22 **extent** 29:17 100:5 171:10 210:10 **exterior** 54:6 120:22

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**external** 122:7 146:20 147:4 **extra** 123:20 207:1 216:21 **extreme** 223:1 **extremely** 21:4 25:14
**eyes** 31:4

**F F**  201:20 203:18 **face** 49:13 **facilitate** 35:1 **Facilitator** 1:13 ,15 **facing** 109:10 **fact** 26:2 34:15 40:22 144:22 162:16 169:5 **factory** 181:15 **factory-installed** 33:14 **Fahrenheit** 66:3 ,7 66:19 ,20 68:3 70:21 93:3 ,7 ,10 93:15 ,19 ,21 95:18 96:1 105:11 168:7 169:2 170:9 ,11 ,14 170:20 171:2 174:17 178:13 **fair** 49:4 219:15 **fairly** 26:18 51:17 120:16 134:21 187:1 203:20 **fall** 18:19 20:22 55:1 107:19 128:18 **falling** 200:22 **falls** 51:20 55:9 117:12 ,13 **familiar** 17:1 27:11 42:8 ,18 100:11 193:3 **families** 56:15 65:14 ,19 67:7 ,14 83:5 ,11 ,13 ,15 84:8 ,16 85:16 86:6 **family** 66:17 83:8

85:20 87:16 **fan** 111:15 **far** 7:21 79:13 110:15 134:18 162:12 193:16 **fat** 217:10 220:13 **favor** 216:14 **feature** 94:5 104:13 121:20 126:15 137:7 140:6 **feature-by-feature** 120:19 **features** 14:4 ,7 15:1 15:5 119:18 120:4 120:8 ,20 **featuring** 138:3 **February** 13:5 **federal** 14:3 184:6 184:21 ,22 **feedback** 5:3 40:19 106:8 186:8 190:2 190:3 **feel** 130:2 162:5 **feeling** 161:3 **feels** 125:19 ,21 **feet** 135:5 196:20 196:22 198:3 ,4 **fell** 140:14 **felt** 39:8 **fenestration** 47:3 ,9 51:7 **field** 22:18 123:1 140:20 149:16 ,22 151:11 220:6 **figure** 59:17 82:19 218:12 ,15 225:15 **filled** 23:7 **filler** 159:20 160:3 **filling** 39:9 **filters** 139:3 141:2 141:4 ,6 **final** 13:6 15:20 16:6 ,7 36:19 49:15 ,16 101:1 128:2 ,3 147:9 152:4 158:13 159:15 160:18

174:3 210:14 ,17 225:2 **finally** 131:1 **find** 39:3 131:20 135:11 ,12 **finding** 11:2 **findings** 12:8 **finds** 47:4 **fine** 113:22 146:3 191:2 **finger** 39:20 **finish** 53:10 ,10 104:1 **finished** 99:13 158:17 **first** 9:22 10:1 13:7 16:21 20:7 39:14 65:2 88:15 94:8 119:17 120:20 149:12 157:4 ,9 163:7 190:10 ,19 193:19 198:18 207:21 212:4 218:8 ,12 **fit** 39:22 40:1 162:6 **fits** 189:10 223:11 **five** 185:5 **fix** 210:4 **fixed** 36:14 41:21 156:8 ,8 162:4 **Fixtures** 1:22 5:18 21:22 25:5 32:16 53:7 83:3 86:11 118:12 143:5 148:6 165:2 166:6 181:10 192:4 207:20 213:18 215:17 **flat** 99:13 **flexibility** 182:7 **floor** 87:8 110:2 ,3 123:10 124:3 132:18 134:14 136:20 146:5 **floors** 123:9 132:18 **flow** 71:3 79:10 ,19 79:21 139:4 141:5

141:18 ,20 177:3 182:14 **flower** 55:20 **flush** 186:9 187:1 **foamed** 188:16 **focus** 8:14 **follow** 78:2 ,8 108:20 ,21 174:21 182:1 201:9 **follow-on** 8:20 **follow-up** 77:18 166:1 **following** 7:7 ,12 36:13 120:7 122:20 **follows** 47:12 56:22 **food** 20:6 22:11 25:15 134:22 136:2 217:5 218:18 ,19 **footage** 211:4 **forced** 143:21 144:7 **foregoing** 110:7 151:5 161:18 229:18 **forget** 91:14 211:2 **form** 10:15 **formalized** 184:4 185:3 **format** 10:7 132:15 **formula** 77:20 206:15 209:20 **formulas** 205:20 209:4 **Forrestal** 1:11 4:9 **forth** 8:21 72:7 85:2 **forward** 5:7 102:2 **four** 186:3 ,7 **fourth** 192:16 **frame** 59:12 61:21 61:22 63:6 ,8 88:8 204:2 **frames** 204:22 **framing** 203:21 204:9 **free** 162:5 **freezer** 64:16 ,21

65:9 ,10 66:8 ,12 66:22 68:4 ,8 69:14 ,15 92:20 93:8 ,17 ,22 94:12 95:12 ,15 ,17 ,22 96:5 104:11 ,22 105:9 ,14 ,20 106:20 107:2 ,9 ,15 112:12 113:12 114:22 118:4 128:18 ,19 146:21 170:8 **freezer-freezer** 69:13 **freezers** 12:2 64:7 ,8 64:9 ,10 91:14 ,16 92:18 170:11 **frequent** 217:7 **fresh** 142:22 146:2 **front** 57:17 ,21 61:6 63:6 178:5 189:19 197:7 ,20 198:4 213:4 **frozen** 17:6 **fruit** 109:17 **frustrating** 162:1 **fulfilling** 127:7 **full** 145:18 ,20 **fully** 8:8 **function** 121:6 140:18 150:3 ,11 **functions** 150:16 ,20 **further** 116:10 137:21 204:3 **future** 15:7 ,21 23:22 101:14 ,15 102:2 ,3 ,6 129:21 210:4 ,12 225:3

**G G**  201:20 203:18 **gain** 5:3
**gap** 118:7 **gaps** 72:4 **gas** 192:13 **gasket** 63:2

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 240** 

**gaskets** 58:2
**gears** 63:19 **general** 6:13 146:16 146:18 147:5 **generally** 11:19 80:17 124:6 142:5 148:2 **generate** 199:17 **generated** 122:21 218:3 **geometry** 85:15 86:4 **getting** 41:2 89:16 **give** 78:2 103:11 150:2 ,5 178:8 206:3 **given** 19:5 24:22 99:9 168:3 ,6 169:9 172:13 **glad** 4:11 227:15 **glass** 41:12 ,13 51:6 51:13 ,14 52:18 53:12 ,22 54:8 ,18 55:9 ,18 57:14 ,16 58:14 ,14 ,17 ,21 59:2 ,15 61:5 ,7 ,8 62:1 ,6 67:8 68:3 68:21 85:11 187:2 187:11 ,17 189:6 ,8 189:11 195:21 200:3 ,9 204:4 ,6 204:12 ,22 208:12 209:7 210:20 ,21 216:18 219:18 ,22 220:9 221:4 **go** 10:6 ,22 15:19 16:16 22:1 27:7 29:17 38:15 40:5 40:10 52:21 62:2 73:3 79:1 88:11 88:19 97:15 99:2 109:16 ,19 119:11 120:18 121:18 128:8 129:16 132:14 135:10 ,11 137:5 138:17 155:8 ,10 161:11 170:13 ,21 171:14

176:1 179:6 181:15 185:3 ,7 186:18 187:5 189:5 190:9 191:12 197:16 201:3 ,19 203:11 207:21 210:15 ,18 215:2 216:11 ,13 217:11 219:8 220:15 222:3 ,6 228:10 **goes** 7:21 28:15 87:3 ,13 95:14 117:12 ,14 128:19 211:1 **going** 4:13 7:6 ,12 10:5 16:16 20:22 41:4 43:18 44:15 45:5 49:15 50:9 52:11 ,21 58:8 60:8 61:9 ,13 65:2 68:10 73:3 77:15 77:17 78:7 79:21 82:4 ,18 85:4 88:14 ,18 ,20 89:17 89:17 94:18 102:2 102:3 ,9 106:3 112:1 114:3 119:1 119:14 120:18 125:16 128:14 ,21 131:18 ,20 133:13 133:21 134:4 136:4 ,7 137:2 161:2 ,6 162:19 171:11 ,12 ,22 174:20 178:8 ,10 183:6 185:7 ,11 186:6 ,18 189:5 191:2 ,12 ,20 193:10 195:15 ,15 197:6 ,16 198:18 202:22 205:15 ,22 209:8 210:4 211:8 213:11 216:7 ,11 219:12 222:3 226:8 ,11 229:10 229:12

**good** 4:3 9:5 33:8 36:9 ,18 39:10 42:20 51:22 63:10 72:22 79:6 110:4 110:4 ,5 ,20 ,22 174:12 193:1 195:5 196:1 222:6 **Gotcha** 203:7 **gotten** 30:8 82:22 185:16 213:6 **great** 34:3 ,5 ,12 51:2 213:14 **greater** 46:11 47:13 68:19 71:19 91:13 93:2 199:2 **Greg** 6:20 **GREGORY** 2:9 **griddle** 18:11 19:20 19:22 20:3 21:5 26:4 ,5 **grill** 141:16 **grills** 141:17 142:2 **grocery** 135:22 212:9 **ground** 110:2 ,3 227:13 **group** 125:22 131:2 195:7 **guarantee** 175:11 175:13
**guess** 24:21 25:1 73:5 74:22 103:3 158:17 **guidance** 80:19 159:7 ,8 ,10 184:4 184:4 ,5 ,8 ,11 ,12 184:14 ,17 196:6 ,9 219:11 **gun** 37:10 **guy** 61:21 206:19 **guys** 4:21 80:22 82:19 102:5 179:22 212:14 227:16

**H H**  201:17 ,20 203:18

225:15 **half** 58:20 ,21 ,22 59:15 ,15 ,15 ,16 70:17 ,18 72:15 ,17 220:10 221:4 **hall** 110:1 **hand** 9:8 ,14 49:17 49:18 162:6 **handle** 72:10 **hang** 41:6 **happen** 51:8 58:15 71:14 131:12 171:19 207:5 **happened** 148:6 **happens** 12:20 108:20 128:7 224:8 **happy** 78:2 **hard** 9:3 189:18 222:16 **hardware** 113:21 **harm** 39:10 **harsh** 26:15 **he'll** 79:1 **head** 99:20 215:21 **headings** 85:19 ,20 **health** 127:12 **hear** 7:13 106:2 108:17 119:7 179:22 180:2 209:17 **heard** 40:6 224:4 **hearing** 115:3 119:6 223:10 **heat** 21:16 58:1 ,16 113:8 123:12 177:4 195:21 **heated** 131:3 ,11 **heater** 127:3 132:22 133:1 134:20 135:13 ,16 147:20 148:3 **heaters** 121:20 122:4 ,9 129:15 130:11 132:7 133:13 ,15 137:8 137:19 140:5

145:20 147:9 ,11 147:16 **heating** 2:6 14:18 14:20 120:1 **heavily** 217:18 **height** 201:11 ,22 202:1 ,7 214:7 **held** 14:22 **help** 5:5 16:20 54:12 56:2 69:19 78:4 90:14 96:1 96:14 173:4 201:17 207:9 **helpful** 55:22 106:6 110:16 131:9 **helps** 65:4 170:6 199:11 207:2 **hey** 135:12 **Hierlmeier** 1:19 5:15 ,16 98:17 111:2 112:20 113:3 ,15 115:9 123:6 124:16 ,20 127:8 138:16 139:12 ,19 145:15 153:9 154:4 ,9 ,12 155:5 158:14 ,20 159:2 ,4 195:2 197:4 205:5 206:13 207:12 213:9 216:12 220:4 ,22 221:2 ,7 221:11 ,14 228:20 229:10 **high** 26:18 137:15 137:15 **higher** 111:14 137:13 **highlighted** 11:3 **highlights** 13:22 **hinged** 35:5 38:11 40:1 ,15 44:12 ,19 **history** 3:15 7:13 9:20 11:16 **hold** 43:7 ,17 ,19 84:11 ,11 129:16

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**holding** 17:10 **hole** 29:19 ,21 **home** 229:17 **Hon** 1:19 5:19 ,19 20:17 ,17 21:12 ,16 24:9 ,9 26:12 ,12 26:21 33:11 ,12 34:1 36:21 ,21 37:9 ,16 ,16 ,22 38:7 ,11 ,18 39:13 39:13 50:18 ,18 52:12 ,13 55:13 ,13 57:10 ,10 59:8 60:11 62:17 ,17 68:16 ,16 69:9 ,9 70:9 ,14 71:7 ,13 78:11 94:10 ,10 ,17 94:20 95:2 ,10 107:11 ,11 114:12 114:12 ,17 144:9 ,9 155:9 ,10 156:4 ,9 174:2 ,2 175:6 ,6 200:11 ,11 201:2 203:19 ,19 204:8 204:14 ,21 212:2 ,2 217:16 ,16 219:7 ,7 **honest** 226:11 **honestly** 210:7 **hope** 9:4 119:3 229:16 **hopefully** 9:11 65:4 68:9 96:13 119:5 120:15 170:5 172:9 173:19 213:5 **hoping** 119:7 **Horak** 1:20 6:4 ,4 23:20 24:3 ,8 **horizontal** 71:13 86:5 200:14 225:17 **horizontally** 17:7 197:17 **hot** 20:5 21:4 25:15 **hours** 160:9 163:17 163:19 164:2 ,3 ,11 166:3 **HRF** 42:14

**HRF-1** 13:1 **huge** 209:19 **humidification** 142:20 143:7 **humidity** 137:15 139:16 **hurry** 109:7 **Hussmann** 1:16 ,23 5:14 72:6 82:7 116:10 125:12 ,17 126:10 127:5 132:10 ,10 136:18 190:10 198:17 **HVAC** 119:22 **hybrid** 64:3 ,4 ,6 ,13 64:15 ,19 65:9 ,10 67:2 ,4 ,17 ,18 ,22 68:8 ,14 72:10 ,11 75:13 77:4 79:3 79:15 ,22 80:4 81:2 ,10 ,13 83:10 84:5 85:7 ,12 86:9 88:3 ,4 ,18 89:12 **hybrids** 76:5 80:21 85:9 **hypothetical** 105:1

**I i.e**  172:15 **IAT** 178:18 **ice** 91:15 92:20 93:22 94:12 95:21 95:21 96:5 ,6 107:16 ,22 128:18 192:11 199:13 207:12 **idea** 40:12 44:9 51:22 118:22 168:11 199:8 219:10 **ideal** 103:9 **Ideally** 103:7 **ideas** 199:18 206:1 **identify** 210:9 **ignore** 38:16 ,21 **illuminate** 121:4 **illuminated** 140:12

140:22 **illumination** 152:20 157:12 ,22 **illustrate** 176:12 190:12 **illustrations** 185:15 **imagine** 177:2 216:5 **immediate** 5:11 127:10 **immediately** 7:7 ,14 58:3 **impact** 60:9 111:8 112:8 **impacts** 13:10 55:11 **implement** 215:15 **implementation** 103:19 **important** 23:15 125:9 146:4 171:2 175:16 **inactive** 143:1 146:13 **inch** 220:10 221:4 ,4 **inches** 197:11 198:6 **incidence** 47:18 54:6 **include** 11:9 25:19 124:21 141:11 151:15 157:14 187:20 189:1 201:16 204:8 ,21 **included** 14:15 23:13 48:20 54:22 55:5 124:18 140:7 145:5 ,5 148:14 200:16 **includes** 35:5 149:20 157:18 158:6 ,7 194:1 **including** 122:12 126:14 142:13 151:17 186:15 **inclusive** 35:15 **inconsistency** 99:6 150:4

**inconsistent** 149:19 150:1 **incorporate** 45:9 47:10 92:20 164:13 173:8 ,21 **incorporated** 13:9 48:12 50:15 163:21 172:17 173:12 ,18 183:20 **incorporates** 163:9 **incorporating** 50:14 **increase** 112:22 191:14 201:6 **increased** 25:12 **increments** 163:18 **Independence** 1:12 **index** 39:20 **indicate** 50:15 67:12 **individuals** 8:18 24:22 **industry** 11:19 47:8 55:14 183:21 212:9 215:14 217:14 ,17 218:8 221:11 **industry’s** 13:9 **inefficient** 145:9 **influence** 164:6 **information** 4:5 7:5 9:16 24:15 78:3 140:13 212:8 **inherent** 173:10 **inherently** 144:21 **initial** 12:1 73:7 **initially** 217:3 **initiated** 14:17 **inlays** 187:11 **inquired** 159:18 **inquires** 167:14 **inquiries** 13:19 ,22 14:1 ,14 27:21 90:6 149:9 152:12 **inquiry** 159:17 **insert** 9:10 **inset** 187:8 220:10

**inside** 31:16 41:21 109:22 121:5 155:19 187:15 ,15 208:11 222:10 **inspectors** 127:12 **install** 131:16 133:12 134:4 **installation** 149:22 **installed** 122:10 147:14 149:17 151:11 ,18 152:1 152:18 153:15 158:4 **instance** 45:11 **instances** 137:11 **instant** 154:1 **Institute** 2:6 **instructions** 147:22 160:2 177:21 **insulated** 75:18 192:15 195:20 200:7 **insulation** 51:5 **integral** 121:3 ,11 140:17 144:11 **integrated** 30:3 87:2 90:3 ,19 91:9 91:18 92:7 ,8 ,12 96:12 100:9 ,14 ,17 102:10 103:4 104:14 146:18 150:9 168:2 ,5 ,7 169:22 170:18 172:12 **intend** 107:13 118:5 **intended** 54:10 ,14 96:6 100:2 116:14 116:17 117:17 120:11 138:8 147:21 ,22 152:1 177:6 ,13 227:8 **intended-to-be** 47:6 **intends** 95:20 **intent** 33:5 ,6 52:2

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 242** 

54:16 117:1 168:11 ,20 173:19 194:7 ,19 208:20 226:6 **intention** 31:17 108:2 ,3 130:21 **interest** 140:2 **interested** 11:2 13:19 27:22 90:7 215:4 **interesting** 31:8 **interior** 31:13 34:20 **interiors** 76:20 **interject** 121:15 **internal** 60:14 101:6 153:5 189:8 201:6 **interpret** 224:10 **interpretation** 75:11 183:7 189:21 200:4 **interpretations** 46:8 185:6 197:5 201:13 **interprets** 31:10 **Intertek** 1:20 6:5 **introductions** 3:10 5:10 **intuitive** 44:21 **invite** 126:3 **involved** 144:1 211:6 217:18 **involves** 149:12 **irrespective** 101:21 **isolated** 69:4 80:11 81:16 **issue** 10:21 21:13 22:6 31:6 ,8 39:3 48:3 49:5 53:7 59:21 73:13 112:17 134:10 143:22 151:7 159:16 176:16 ,20 182:16 184:8 199:15 203:9 217:22 **issued** 13:5 159:7

184:3 185:7 **issues** 4:3 7:10 8:2 8:7 ,7 11:5 37:17 51:7 58:16 ,20 120:1 131:8 134:13 ,13 ,16 ,16 163:3 228:7 **it'll** 45:15 **item** 71:18 139:5 141:1 ,16 146:7 147:9 212:5 **items** 26:14 120:10 140:17 144:13 149:8

**J James**  1:11 **January** 10:19 11:13 12:3 228:17 **Jeff** 1:17 6:6 28:20 41:8 ,19 48:18 60:18 74:20 79:7 **Jennifer** 2:3 6:12 **Joe** 1:22 40:21 41:6 42:4 76:16 77:19 78:8 162:8 208:22 209:1 210:15 211:22 **join** 162:2 **joined** 9:1 220:5 **joining** 162:4

**K keep**  8:14 9:7 63:3 72:18 88:14 89:17 136:17 146:2 147:11 187:6 222:21 **key** 25:21 101:17 159:13 **kick** 96:8 **kilowatt** 163:17 ,18 164:2 ,3 ,11 166:3 **kind** 36:13 55:19 74:13 116:10 145:11 158:17 195:13 208:19

212:14 224:17 225:17 **kinds** 200:8 **King** 1:20 6:8 ,8 82:6 ,6 136:16 ,16 **kits** 122:1 **know** 19:8 ,16 31:2 40:15 ,17 43:2 44:4 ,9 ,18 49:22 50:5 52:4 54:3 61:16 78:9 79:14 79:15 81:1 ,21 83:19 100:10 102:4 ,5 105:2 109:8 ,21 111:6 117:6 ,10 118:1 119:8 ,9 129:9 131:17 134:15 148:19 153:17 158:22 161:17 174:12 182:17 185:5 188:2 ,17 194:3 196:21 197:18 198:5 ,22 199:1 ,22 200:2 ,14 208:4 211:15 212:21 213:2 ,3 ,13 216:22 222:7 223:19 226:13 ,17

**L L**  214:21 **lab** 6:17 98:21 164:8 **laboratory** 2:5 ,9 6:21 99:3 **labs** 23:18 **language** 50:14 117:16 149:1 156:22 **LAPT** 96:8 127:18 127:19 128:4 129:1 178:10 ,12 180:17 182:18 **large** 17:13 63:7 98:2 ,19 189:3 222:18 ,20

**larger** 117:5 187:16 189:14 **laughed** 222:15 **Laughter** 38:4 44:7 109:9 165:19 180:8 207:6 216:3 **Laura** 2:8 129:11 221:21 222:13 **Lauren** 2:5 6:2 126:8 222:1 **law** 136:18 **Lawrence** 2:9 6:21 **laws** 136:19 **lawsuits** 134:14 **layman** 44:14 **learn** 155:15 **learned** 155:21 **learning** 155:14 156:10 **leasing** 123:10 **leave** 39:11 211:4 **led** 206:6 **left** 5:11 61:8 67:8 85:10 89:3 ,6 92:7 110:3 118:4 ,5 143:1 160:22 217:6 **left-hand** 66:10 **length** 186:14 187:13 ,19 188:22 189:13 190:20 195:16 199:1 201:11 202:9 206:18 214:9 ,20 224:7 **lengths** 186:11 ,17 188:1 **let's** 5:9 9:22 27:5 28:18 72:11 73:1 73:15 88:2 89:17 106:2 ,13 109:3 ,5 109:19 119:6 ,11 135:12 161:21 178:13 179:15 190:18 191:3 205:19 **level** 32:2 78:16

111:14 124:18 ,21 152:20 155:1 157:12 ,22 195:18 **levels** 124:22 125:8 153:21 154:13 190:17 ,18 191:1 ,4 191:8 213:21 **liberal** 214:5 **lift** 37:2 ,4 38:13 **lift-off** 37:1 **lifted** 38:12 **light** 46:12 ,17 47:5 47:14 50:21 51:16 51:20 152:13 153:12 ,13 167:17 169:9 **lighting** 121:8 151:8 ,15 ,21 152:6 152:9 ,14 ,17 ,22 153:4 ,5 ,8 154:14 157:11 ,16 ,21 158:5 ,7 **lights** 78:21 120:21 140:7 ,8 151:18 ,22 152:19 153:15 ,17 153:22 155:16 ,21 **likes** 225:4 **limit** 8:15 71:3 177:4 ,5 **limited** 182:13 **limits** 177:2 **line** 69:5 80:13 81:15 117:19 ,20 204:14 ,15 ,17 210:6 221:8 222:21 **link** 11:6 16:1 228:7 **links** 185:18 **list** 11:4 24:15 29:14 **listed** 7:20 14:14 19:9 ,20 **listen** 9:8 **listening** 209:18 **lit** 153:18 ,19 **literally** 37:4

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 243** 

**literature** 171:18 212:19 **little** 10:6 11:15 16:3 28:22 45:4 63:19 68:10 73:5 75:8 119:7 150:5 169:11 172:10 174:14 183:17 ,18 187:12 188:4 191:21 198:12 214:5 217:20 220:13 222:21 **LLC** 1:20 2:3 6:9 82:7 84:22 136:17 **Llenza** 1:21 3:17 4:6 9:18 ,19 10:4 ,5 227:3 ,4 ,9 ,15 229:4 ,13 **load** 21:17 134:21 147:4 **loaded** 37:10 **loading** 35:3 58:5 159:21 160:2 ,14 **loads** 23:21 115:12 151:15 **local** 127:12 136:18 136:19 ,21 137:3 **located** 135:3 **location** 135:5 197:13 **lock** 113:20 **locked** 114:4 155:20 **logical** 115:22 211:17 **long** 22:13 24:15 101:12 103:4 ,9 113:12 127:13 146:2 195:4 202:20 203:8 **look** 50:8 ,10 62:19 63:3 80:22 81:1 ,2 85:16 ,18 195:14 197:11 ,18 219:14 **looked** 16:1 78:13 195:6 197:17 209:3 **looking** 5:7 16:5

55:6 71:15 89:5 116:11 195:4 197:5 ,8 213:12 216:5 217:19 **looks** 65:5 68:20 **loose** 124:7 **lose** 145:1 200:19 201:2 **losing** 59:13 **loss** 58:1 ,16 **losses** 51:3 **lost** 162:14 **lot** 5:4 17:14 21:14 33:12 ,12 36:21 37:1 47:20 53:9 61:6 80:7 ,16 111:19 134:20 136:13 144:18 161:3 171:8 ,15 185:16 190:3 195:17 ,19 200:18 200:20 207:13 211:14 216:6 ,8 217:2 223:11 227:13 **Louis** 2:2 6:10 36:11 113:17 114:10 115:15 126:19 ,20 133:10 133:11 144:19 **louvers** 79:11 **low** 85:2 111:11 112:9 113:5 116:17 133:6 147:12 170:12 ,20 **low-temperature** 116:16 182:12 **lower** 23:12 78:16 101:5 102:12 103:10 113:5 169:6 225:16 **lowers** 150:7 **lowest** 13:14 84:1 86:13 ,19 87:4 ,13 88:5 91:2 98:8 99:17 100:2 101:2 105:12 111:5

113:15 167:11 ,20 167:22 168:18 ,20 169:7 ,12 ,21 170:2 170:6 171:4 ,7 ,21 172:1 ,5 ,8 ,11 ,12 172:22 173:4 ,15 175:2 176:4 ,10 ,17 177:7 ,13 179:5 ,10 179:13 181:2 **lunch** 109:13 161:10

**M machine**  133:22 **maintain** 38:13 92:9 100:1 ,12 ,16 100:19 142:21 170:18 176:9 179:4 **maintained** 150:10 177:13 **maintaining** 172:15 187:3 **major** 37:20 160:18 163:4 **majority** 26:16 ,22 51:3 **making** 1:3 59:12 73:20 118:3 224:9 **mall** 123:8 132:15 **management** 149:13 ,21 150:6 152:14 ,19 158:5

**manner** 122:1 149:17 151:12 191:13 **manual** 156:2 **manually** 123:2 **manufacture** 17:16 138:7 **manufactured** 192:7 193:4 **manufacturer** 28:4 46:7 95:19 118:19 118:22 131:15 132:8 138:9 151:19 164:7

168:12 ,17 188:7 203:14 **manufacturer's** 147:22 176:9 178:17 **manufacturers** 23:17 29:7 ,8 126:13 137:12 141:2 ,17 164:1 175:4 176:22 205:14 **manufacturing** 1:19 5:20 20:18 24:10 26:13 50:19 68:17 155:11 174:3 202:16 **marked** 139:15 **market** 26:22 107:14 ,15 133:13 216:15 223:7 ,14 223:15 **marketed** 17:3 ,4 20:2 107:21 ,21 117:1 **marketing** 114:14 115:17 ,21 117:17 212:19 **marketplace** 217:8 **markets** 95:19 138:22 **Mary** 1:18 5:21 **Massoud** 1:21 5:17 21:20 ,21 25:3 32:14 33:9 35:19 53:5 166:1 **match** 220:21 **material** 46:5 48:7 48:9 ,9 63:2 157:19 **materials** 47:1 ,7 200:6 **matter** 7:11 81:11 103:3 110:7 146:1 150:21 152:15 161:18 229:18 **matters** 186:19 188:10

**maximize** 188:8 207:10 **maximized** 218:9 **maximum** 77:20 138:1 152:20 153:2 157:12 ,22 **McDonald's** 76:18

**mean** 31:11 36:15 43:15 ,18 44:4 49:22 52:8 53:18 55:6 78:2 84:12 90:15 96:19 97:19 102:2 106:17 112:8 114:16 117:21 125:13 133:18 ,20 135:9 143:11 148:8 156:14 167:4 181:16 182:21 192:4 193:6 194:12 ,13 195:3 196:10 ,11 ,18 198:7 199:16 202:21 203:4 204:22 207:22 211:7 212:11 ,12 212:14 ,16 214:1 215:2 216:12 220:20 225:11 **meaning** 66:4

**means** 19:22 34:19 36:1 47:13 56:22 57:6 65:10 92:8 107:12 121:21 172:12 176:3 220:16 **meant** 29:22 67:11 114:22 196:12 199:17

**measure** 166:19 **measured** 90:4 151:14 164:10 169:22 210:10 **measurement** 185:19 201:12 **measurements**

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 244** 

73:16 92:3 **measuring** 13:2 **meat** 78:20 ,22 142:22 **mechanical** 152:13 174:9 ,10 **media** 24:14 **medical** 17:4 **medium** 85:2 111:7 112:7 ,11 113:4 ,7 115:10 ,12 116:21 116:22 119:1 **meet** 31:21 60:10 67:2 ,16 ,22 86:20 87:1 91:4 101:13 101:20 103:5 ,6 105:7 112:19 ,21 113:1 ,4 ,5 114:2 115:19 126:17 168:16 169:5 ,6 173:2 182:4 ,6 ,10 191:15 194:6 ,7 ,19 216:8 217:3 **meeting** 1:3 ,6 ,11 ,12 1:15 4:5 8:13 10:8 16:5 66:4 ,7 67:18 126:8 136:9 183:11 185:22 227:12 **meetings** 9:3 **meets** 32:20 36:2 ,5 54:9 ,15 66:12 ,21 66:22 68:4 ,6 73:1 73:8 97:7 ,8 98:13 104:20 113:13 **melt** 121:22 122:6 **mentioned** 75:7 131:2 132:12 163:2 183:9 192:10 **merchandise** 17:7 **merits** 8:22 **met** 1:11 150:15 151:3 159:21 **metal** 208:9 **method** 12:22 13:10 46:16 ,21 ,21 130:11 166:8

173:9 184:21 ,22 190:14 191:1 ,18 198:8 ,12 201:18 209:16 210:9 215:18 228:11 **methods** 47:8 **metric** 209:14 212:14 **microphone** 9:19 84:19 **mid-twenties** 107:17 **middle** 22:22 24:2 68:18 70:11 76:17 78:12 79:10 ,19 83:3 188:14 222:19 226:2 **midmorning** 7:17 **mind** 72:18 136:17 187:6 222:22 **minimize** 111:17 218:20 219:3 **minimized** 187:2 **minor** 161:1 163:2 163:6 **minus** 83:22 174:18 177:16 200:3 **minute** 154:7 **minutes** 161:14 ,16 **mirror** 53:9 ,10 **mirrored** 54:1 **missing** 75:1 148:9 **mistaken** 24:19 94:11 **misting** 142:19 143:7 **mode** 8:15 114:3 ,7 **model** 27:12 ,13 ,19 28:8 68:17 90:20 94:7 104:18 106:19 ,21 123:16 138:10 152:1 153:19 154:3 158:1 ,3 168:9 ,14 168:15 169:1 ,9 ,15 170:8 ,12 172:14 175:2

**modeled** 123:15 **modeling** 123:13 124:16 **models** 94:5 104:12 120:6 137:22 138:3 141:3 152:16 153:3 ,18 153:20 157:14 169:3 **modes** 113:22 **modification** 173:15 **modified** 139:11 216:18 **modify** 44:10 172:8 **modifying** 102:20 **modulate** 147:19 **modulates** 150:8
**money** 134:20 139:1 ,8
**mop** 146:5 **morning** 4:3 ,12 7:5 **motors** 111:15 **mounts** 141:19 **mouthful** 168:11 **movable** 31:11 33:6 34:20 36:2

**move** 27:6 31:7 34:7 56:1 78:7 109:4 110:17 112:1 119:14 120:15 127:16 137:5 164:22 184:10 185:11 210:12 221:20 224:13

**moves** 115:9 **moving** 28:12 32:19 146:6 149:2 156:19 167:9 181:6 183:4 **mullion** 188:14 189:2 194:15 ,19 199:15 200:5 203:22 204:1 ,5 ,22 205:7 217:10 220:7 222:5 ,19

**mullions** 186:15 187:2 ,21 196:10 196:19 198:10 ,21 199:2 200:3 ,6 203:2 208:1 211:3 218:21 220:7 222:10 **multiple** 94:7 104:16 105:4 115:18 ,19 116:13 128:14 ,20 ,22 153:11 **municipalities** 137:3 **mute** 9:7 **mutual** 110:11

**N**

**name** 4:16 5:11 8:11 ,12 ,19 84:20 96:18 **name's** 4:10 16:15 **national** 1:17 2:5 ,9 6:7 ,17 ,21 28:21 48:19 60:19 134:2 **nature** 50:16 136:1 **Navigant** 2:4 6:19 54:20

**near** 23:22 141:19 155:22 220:8 **necessarily** 30:14 44:22 69:3 70:22 82:15 113:6 118:13 ,14 218:18 218:22 226:1 **NEEA** 113:18 126:21 133:12 **need** 25:18 30:5 ,6 ,6 39:8 ,9 ,20 42:16 43:12 53:1 61:10 73:17 74:1 ,2 76:9 82:17 117:19 127:20 129:12 149:1 150:12 151:1 153:14 156:17 160:13 161:8 ,12 185:3

210:8 219:8 **needs** 61:11 62:11 63:22 80:11 115:19 116:1 141:20 174:6 217:4 224:14 225:21
**neg** 119:20 120:14 121:7 122:15 137:18 142:1 149:6 **negotiate** 195:14 **negotiated** 14:17 15:12 143:19 ,20 **negotiations** 14:21 125:18 130:13 144:10 146:8 **neither** 129:7 **Neshan** 1:21 5:17 5:17 21:21 ,21 22:21 25:4 32:15 32:15 33:2 35:20 35:20 36:1 ,5 ,9 53:6 ,6 ,17 54:2 55:4 ,4 83:1 ,2 ,2 ,7 83:19 84:11 86:10 86:10 87:5 ,8 ,14 87:18 88:7 118:11 118:11 ,17 143:4 ,4 143:17 ,20 148:5 ,5 148:16 165:1 ,1 ,10 165:14 ,17 166:5 ,5 166:10 ,14 ,18 167:3 181:7 ,8 ,9 ,9 181:13 182:9 192:3 ,4 193:12 194:3 ,9 ,9 207:19 207:19 213:16 ,17 213:17 214:11 ,14 214:18 215:16 ,16 225:8 ,9 ,13 ,14 ,16 225:19 226:8 ,10 226:17 ,22

**never** 42:9 58:14 79:13 ,14 107:20 182:16 192:18

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 245** 

194:10 195:4

**new** 19:10 20:12 ,14 56:20 66:12 90:11 92:6 ,15 106:5 108:11 137:1 158:19 163:14 229:11 **Nick** 2:1 5:22 100:8 196:13 202:17 203:12 215:20 **night** 32:18 33:2 ,13 33:16 ,18 35:9 37:7 39:2 206:2 **Njau** 96:18 **nomenclature** 106:12 108:17 129:12

**non** 62:9 64:3 141:1 **non-hybrid** 64:8 ,13 65:21 **non-permanent** 141:6 **non-refrigerated** 192:20 **non-standard** 142:2 **non-TDA** 206:17 **non-visible** 219:3 **noon-ish** 7:20 **NOPR** 11:5 14:12 14:15 15:9 ,10 ,14 15:15 ,17 16:5 49:15 50:11 102:5 102:19 156:21 158:16 177:1 **NOPRs** 212:4 **normal** 47:18 54:6 140:20 149:22 174:14 198:10 **normally** 149:16 151:10 **Northwest** 2:2 ,4 6:11 ,17

**nose** 154:5 **note** 121:13 125:9 207:20 **notice** 1:3 10:18 49:16

**notify** 140:14 **noting** 108:10 **notoriously** 57:22 **NSF** 24:10 101:22 103:6 ,9 129:13 ,17 130:6 **NSF-7** 100:11 ,16 101:5 103:3 **number** 11:9 ,9 14:12 37:6 ,17 38:1 ,17 ,18 ,21 ,22 39:1 ,14 40:6 52:14 ,22 53:2 57:13 59:6 ,9 123:7 129:1 153:22 174:16 175:4 ,12 ,17 176:12 183:19 193:2 218:3 221:8 225:12 228:12 ,13 **numbers** 43:3 89:7 196:1 217:17

**O o'clock**  109:18 **o'clock-ish** 109:15 **objective** 52:19 203:10 **obstructing** 205:2 **obtain** 111:6 202:14 **obviously** 53:12 64:5 137:10 143:5 145:6 166:6 189:16 192:5 225:10 ,20
**occupancy** 152:6 155:13 158:2 ,9

**occur** 164:5

**occurs** 160:16 **October** 16:4 **odd** 171:17 205:14 207:5 **odds** 198:3 **off-the-cuff** 73:4 74:3 **offer** 106:8 117:21

118:1 141:3 ,17 **offered** 28:3 29:3 132:21 **offering** 114:6 **office** 229:14 **official** 122:20 **officially** 73:5 184:16 **offline** 78:2 88:3 108:21 179:16 **oh** 9:21 53:21 97:14 118:5 203:6 213:13 **okay** 6:22 10:3 ,5 16:10 ,11 21:12 24:8 26:11 27:4 ,7 28:12 ,18 29:18 30:20 31:5 33:22 34:3 35:10 ,18 36:9 37:14 38:10 38:20 40:4 ,19 ,20 42:16 45:17 ,18 ,19 48:17 49:20 53:4 55:21 62:15 63:13 63:18 74:19 76:2 76:16 77:22 78:10 80:6 ,8 87:7 ,17 88:14 89:9 ,13 ,14 89:18 94:12 ,17 ,20 100:8 103:22 109:19 110:22 ,22 111:22 ,22 112:1 114:17 115:13 119:10 125:2 126:19 130:5 132:3 133:9 140:3 140:5 145:22 148:4 ,4 ,20 149:2 154:11 155:5 156:6 159:4 161:16 162:13 ,19 163:1 165:20 ,21 165:22 167:9 175:18 178:6 ,16 180:13 181:6 182:20 183:5 ,8 185:4 190:5

213:13 215:20 221:6 ,10 ,17 ,18 ,20 222:11 224:12 227:7 229:2

**once** 12:12 15:18 78:22 100:21 128:3 154:20 184:21 188:21 228:16 **One-way** 54:2

**ones** 111:20 138:18 138:20 197:8 210:8 217:7 **online** 15:22 81:2 ,4
**opaque** 32:7 ,7 ,11 48:7 ,9 **open** 22:12 23:1 29:7 30:1 ,19 37:2 59:17 69:22 83:21 86:1 ,4 153:11 182:14 192:19 200:18 ,20 207:15 217:20 **opened** 31:15 **opening** 3:11 7:9 9:21 ,22 10:2 ,2 23:1 62:21 ,22 63:5 ,10 197:21 **openings** 23:21 79:11 **operate** 13:15 86:14 ,17 95:18 98:5 105:11 113:20 ,21 115:18 116:17 ,19 128:11 160:8 170:10 171:1 **operated** 114:3 ,7 121:11 149:17 151:12 169:16 **operates** 17:5 93:2 98:4 106:19 ,20 107:17 113:11 **operating** 66:3 ,6 78:18 84:1 86:20 90:1 ,13 91:7 ,11 92:10 ,14 ,21 93:6

93:9 ,14 ,18 ,20 94:6 98:1 ,1 ,9 104:15 ,19 105:4 105:17 106:22 108:4 116:13 ,22 117:11 128:15 ,17 129:4 138:5 140:13 ,15 ,16 147:12 170:8 171:18 ,21 172:14 **operation** 117:18 137:14 140:20 143:10 147:20 150:1 160:8 **operational** 122:10 137:20 143:8 147:17 **operator** 144:17 **opinion** 131:21 193:14 **opinions** 5:5 **opportunity** 7:8 8:5 215:9 **opposed** 134:19 **opt** 123:11 219:20 **optically** 54:17 **optimal** 147:12 **option** 39:6 113:18 114:4 124:13 127:6 141:11 223:18 **optional** 28:4 ,10 29:4 50:16 121:3 126:15 141:17 **options** 114:9 124:10 141:16 **order** 48:12 83:9 150:13 **organization** 5:12 **organizations** 184:7 **original** 109:14 212:3 ,3 **originally** 213:21 223:20 **other's** 61:8

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 246** 

**outcomes** 149:6 **outdoor** 138:21 **outdoors** 147:14 **outer** 57:2 ,8 **outfitted** 158:3 **outfitting** 136:8 **outlet** 124:9 **outlets** 146:17 ,19 147:5 **outset** 7:11 **outside** 32:22 120:22 171:22 192:12 **outsider** 217:19 **overall** 55:11 199:3 **overhangs** 189:7 **overlaps** 187:11 **overlaying** 222:9 **overridden** 156:15 **override** 156:3 ,5

**oversee** 4:17 **oversize** 188:5 **overview** 224:19 **oxidizers** 142:8

**P P-R-O-C-E-E-D-** 

**...** 4:1
**p.m** 229:19
**pace** 24:17 **Pacific** 2:4 6:17 **package** 92:3 148:22 159:17 **packages** 22:14 23:6 159:20 160:3 160:12 **packet** 7:4 **page** 16:2 228:2 ,4 ,5
**pages** 45:1 228:1 **pain** 145:16
**pan** 42:20 ,21 121:20 122:18 126:15 127:3 131:3 132:7 ,22 133:1 ,13 ,14 134:12 ,20 135:12 135:16 **panel** 34:20 36:2

55:19 195:20 208:12 **panels** 79:11 ,19 208:12
**pans** 22:11 23:4 ,6 23:13 123:12 ,15 123:17 124:6 125:7 ,11 131:11 131:14 **parameters** 15:13 **paraphrase** 151:18 **pardon** 9:21 96:18 **part** 13:3 15:8 16:9 23:12 25:8 36:2 38:22 42:2 46:13 49:9 55:9 59:13 73:13 74:1 82:13 112:16 119:21 123:15 ,17 ,19 124:19 131:3 144:4 ,20 145:4 ,4 145:11 148:21 159:10 161:6 171:2 172:20 176:22 200:19 202:2 ,8 225:7 227:11 **partial** 57:20 **participants** 10:13 76:4 120:2 162:2 **participated** 125:17 **participating** 5:1 **particular** 11:1 35:14 **particularly** 16:19 110:14 **particulates** 141:4 **parties** 13:19 27:22 90:7 144:1 228:17
**pass** 55:15 205:10 205:16 **pass-through** 57:13 57:22 58:13 59:9 **pass-throughs** 59:14 **pastry** 109:17 **penalized** 191:9

**penalizing** 192:22 **people** 26:14 31:1 44:22 47:20 50:3 55:17 78:13 79:16 81:12 120:17 126:16 130:20 145:22 190:3 211:9 ,12 223:11 **percent** 46:12 47:13 50:21 51:15 51:19 ,22 52:13 ,17 52:22 53:2 57:1 ,7 57:19 ,21 58:8 59:3 ,6 ,9 ,10 ,14 60:8 61:9 ,14 ,20 62:4 ,5 125:12 132:11 136:12 139:16 144:12 191:6 194:16 199:3 216:22 219:13 **percentage** 58:11 82:9 132:5 203:1 222:5 **percentages** 222:20 **perfectly** 18:6 **perform** 102:9 **performance** 111:9 122:14 138:11 142:12 **performing** 52:18 **peril** 110:10 ,11 **period** 10:19 11:14 15:17 ,18 98:13 122:14 ,17 ,19 ,21 155:15 160:9 ,15 228:18 **periods** 152:8 **permanent** 141:2 **permanently** 33:6 33:13 158:4 **permit** 136:4 **perpendicular** 47:19
**person** 197:7 ,10 **perspective** 126:13 162:12 188:11

202:16 222:6 **pertaining** 125:22 **petition** 102:12 **phone** 106:11 108:18 126:3 161:13 209:2 **phones** 8:15 9:7 **physical** 76:19 177:2 **physically** 19:15 69:2 ,4 ,17 ,18 ,20 76:22 77:6 80:2 84:13 **pick** 86:22 175:4 198:8 **picked** 29:20 **pictures** 200:17 **piece** 32:6 48:12 51:14 65:18 72:10 78:22 79:1 90:22 109:16 168:4 ,13 170:4 178:12 208:9 **pieces** 88:9 **pile** 54:20 **pin** 38:15 **pipe** 177:3 **place** 10:12 120:5 127:11 134:22 142:20 154:22 192:10 **placed** 20:4 21:4 22:14 23:6 **places** 136:1 192:8 **plan** 8:8 99:14 **plans** 23:20 **plastic** 192:13 **play** 116:5 **please** 8:10 ,10 9:7 11:8 34:11 54:12 54:12 84:20 96:15 100:6 103:20 130:2 144:6 162:5 196:11 210:15 222:12 **plenty** 42:12 ,13 130:20

**plugged** 145:8 **plumbing** 135:8 **plus** 45:11 83:22 174:17 **point** 7:22 35:21 52:10 55:2 ,12 61:14 99:10 116:10 117:8 ,9 121:16 123:3 125:17 136:22 138:7 155:7 156:20 165:5 166:15 ,17 ,21 175:7 176:7 178:14 ,15 ,15 ,17 178:19 ,22 ,22 179:3 ,6 ,9 ,13 180:6 185:4 ,9 190:11 191:9 ,22 194:13 195:17 197:11 ,18 198:8 201:10 202:21 206:11 209:19 222:17 226:2 229:8 **pointed** 226:4 **pointing** 225:22 **points** 60:20 **polymer** 142:9 **pond** 213:12
**poor** 138:22 139:7 **popular** 70:15
**porous** 71:22 **portion** 74:12 ,13 189:3 **portions** 183:20 **position** 113:9 ,14 115:4 138:2 141:22 146:12 147:1 153:2 197:20 **positions** 15:11 115:7 185:10 **possibility** 71:16 223:2 **possible** 10:15 50:6

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 247** 

140:1 187:4 218:21 **possibly** 63:4 **postal** 11:12 **posted** 229:13 **potentially** 113:3 131:22
**power** 124:9 137:13 146:19 **practical** 215:12 **practice** 70:13 **pre-installed** 28:9 **preclude** 125:6 131:19 **prefer** 78:1 139:12 **prefers** 46:16 **preliminary** 9:18 73:4 106:7 183:10 **premise** 40:13
**prep** 18:17 **preparing** 136:1 **prescribed** 98:6 101:10 169:16 170:10 **present** 1:14 2:7 10:8 16:17 91:8 120:9 142:1 143:1 147:16 163:5 184:10 186:3 ,7 **presentation** 10:22 11:4 16:9 104:1 **presented** 186:10 207:8 227:17 **presenting** 161:6 **presiding** 1:13
**press** 109:12 **pressed** 221:8
**pressure** 148:7 ,9 ,11 157:15 218:20 219:3
**pressures** 166:11
**presume** 165:12 **pretend** 38:21 **pretty** 17:1 31:6 42:14 52:15 108:5 201:13 210:18 222:15 223:21 224:5

**prevent** 141:4 142:9 **preventing** 141:12 **previous** 35:8 101:1 143:10 **previously** 70:4 93:21 94:5 105:18 **primarily** 29:9 **prior** 122:16 159:21 160:14 **probably** 34:14 59:10 61:1 80:20 109:18 131:15 136:12 174:6 188:7 205:10 211:15 **problem** 23:4 39:15 39:17 ,21 40:3 60:11 95:2 103:16 174:15 190:14 212:7 **problematic** 59:1 **problems** 229:5 **procedure** 3:19 4:1 4:3 ,6 7:15 ,19 8:2 10:9 ,11 11:8 ,17 11:19 12:10 ,14 ,16 12:17 ,18 13:4 ,6 ,7 13:8 ,17 ,18 14:2 ,8 14:11 ,13 15:3 ,10 16:18 17:22 18:1 18:5 ,8 ,13 ,15 ,22 22:4 ,7 ,10 ,20 23:5 23:10 24:11 ,13 45:8 ,22 46:14 ,16 46:19 48:8 49:10 72:14 73:9 ,17 74:17 89:21 90:5 90:22 91:19 ,22 99:18 101:1 119:16 120:3 ,11 121:12 129:19 ,20 133:8 137:21 140:10 141:15 142:11 145:18 146:14 147:3 149:14 ,18 ,20

150:2 ,14 ,19 151:3 151:9 152:4 154:16 155:18 156:7 ,22 157:19 158:13 159:19 163:3 ,9 ,22 164:14 164:19 169:18 172:19 176:16 184:6 ,9 209:15 225:2 228:4 ,15 **procedures** 1:4 4:18 11:20 12:1 ,6 13:9 27:9 28:1 32:4 97:20 128:9 159:9 173:13 224:21 **proceed** 16:11 162:19 **proceeding** 7:14
**process** 11:7 14:17 15:16 120:14 128:6 145:12 184:5 ,11 ,17 185:3 206:4 **produce** 142:22 **product** 15:1 17:2 ,3 23:22 24:17 26:16 31:16 35:3 43:9 43:10 61:5 87:15 88:6 91:2 99:17 101:3 105:12 114:14 116:5 121:2 ,4 160:12 167:12 ,21 168:1 168:18 ,21 169:7 169:13 ,21 170:3 ,6 171:8 172:9 ,11 173:1 ,5 ,16 175:10 176:5 ,18 177:7 ,14 179:5 ,11 ,14 181:2 187:5 188:9 194:2 194:21 196:9 ,11 196:15 197:1 200:1 207:10 ,16 208:3 ,5 ,8 ,14 212:4 ,22 220:2 226:1

**productive** 34:4 227:12 **products** 1:18 21:13 24:11 ,14 47:3 ,9 62:13 96:20 142:21 159:8 **professional** 136:7 **program** 9:9 31:20 156:13 ,15 **programmed** 156:4
**progress** 110:4 ,5 **project** 197:12 **projected** 8:3 194:1 194:7 ,20 196:8 200:1 202:7 224:6 224:10 **projection** 204:13 **prompt** 109:2
**proper** 14:5 ,7 **properly** 131:22 134:12 229:7 ,8 **proposal** 121:7 122:9 123:5 128:1 133:3 138:15 140:16 141:5 ,13 142:14 147:15 ,18 173:21 183:13 188:2 189:21 199:18 201:21 ,22 202:15 204:7 206:6 **proposals** 15:11 120:9 212:3 217:13 **proposed** 1:3 10:9 10:18 13:16 16:6 21:20 24:20 35:13 45:14 54:22 56:10 57:3 70:4 76:9 ,15 93:3 ,15 94:14 106:5 120:12 128:5 137:17 146:12 147:2 164:17 167:20 173:15 175:21 190:17 201:16

202:9 210:8 211:10
**proposes** 14:12 19:17 46:20 56:19 90:11 105:3 116:12 137:19 157:1 172:8 **proposing** 34:18 47:11 64:14 65:7 66:14 92:6 ,15 163:5 164:12 173:7
**prove** 86:22 **provide** 5:4 10:14 10:15 108:6 167:19 209:15 219:11 227:22 228:12 **provided** 16:1 150:17 **provides** 31:15 80:18 160:1 167:18 **providing** 140:12 196:6 228:11 **provision** 91:3 105:13 167:12 ,16 167:21 172:9 **provisions** 14:9 ,10 22:10 45:10 73:10 86:12 99:16 101:4 101:18 128:5 150:13 ,19 151:2 152:5 158:11 159:13 163:11 164:18 **public** 1:3 ,6 ,11 ,16 4:5 ,10 16:5 183:11 185:22 **publication** 13:17 16:8 174:4 ,7 225:2 **publish** 77:20 **published** 15:17 ,21 16:4 212:5 **pull** 38:13 79:1

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 248** 

149:1 169:1 ,4 **pull-down** 17:10 122:13 160:15
**pump** 122:6 126:22 127:1 ,5 ,12 133:2 134:19 135:2 ,4 ,4 135:17 **pumping** 127:13
**pumps** 121:20 122:6 ,10 132:7 **purchase** 131:14 136:22 213:6 **purchased** 76:18 **purely** 144:16 **purifiers** 146:9 ,13 **purifying** 146:9
**purpose** 5:2 20:2 121:2 146:16 ,18 147:5 189:12
**purposes** 17:5 31:19 35:2 121:9 140:8 170:17 172:18 184:15 185:18 186:2 188:15 **pushed** 216:15 **pushing** 161:9 **put** 8:14 26:14 42:22 43:9 51:8 51:12 53:9 72:7 73:1 78:20 83:4 98:22 124:7 ,8 134:21 135:16 136:4 142:20 193:17 197:7 198:8 205:15 214:8 227:5 228:14 **puts** 78:21 **putting** 31:1 49:3 135:17 212:18
**Q quality**  9:5 142:21 **quantifiable** 46:16 **quarters** 221:5 **question** 20:18 36:12 40:22 41:7

72:22 78:5 96:17 106:13 108:15 112:5 114:13 129:3 ,8 148:5 153:10 154:10 155:10 160:21 166:1 179:19 180:5 182:2 191:20 194:18 ,22 196:4 ,5 206:14 215:12 225:9 **questions** 5:4 9:13 11:1 ,4 16:10 27:21 41:20 50:20 76:4 80:16 82:21 96:11 126:7 160:17 183:10 184:8 ,20 185:17 210:5 **queuing** 8:18 **quick** 38:15 160:20 161:8 ,11 ,13 ,15 183:15 224:19 **quickly** 10:6 109:19 120:16 145:1 **quite** 38:14 57:14 58:20 78:5 ,15 ,19 175:19

**R rack**  118:20 ,21 **racking** 72:1 **radiated** 195:21 **raise** 8:6 9:8 162:5 **raised** 120:2 156:20 176:19 **raises** 150:7 **random** 138:18 **randomly** 170:16 **range** 51:18 66:22 67:1 91:9 92:11 92:11 104:16 ,19 106:22 129:4 140:16 170:8 171:19 ,22 **ranges** 94:6 98:2 115:18 117:11

128:17 **rate** 88:1 138:11 **rated** 23:16 27:17 91:1 95:22 101:10 105:14 **rating** 11:20 13:12 86:17 87:1 88:17 88:21 89:22 90:12 90:16 91:4 ,5 92:7 95:3 ,6 96:11 97:18 98:5 ,15 100:2 101:10 ,21 103:12 105:18 128:11 ,16 ,20 ,22 129:2 ,7 133:22 150:14 168:3 ,16 169:5 ,17 ,20 170:10 182:4 ,6 ,10 **ratings** 129:13 130:5 163:8 ,22 **ratio** 59:18 63:5 82:9

**raw** 164:10 165:3 ,4 **reach** 20:7 78:9 95:11 111:11 207:16 **reach-in** 193:7 **reached** 15:5 160:8 **reaching** 20:5 98:15 **read** 9:14 44:14 77:16 95:16 126:7 176:1 178:4 179:14 183:13 **reading** 44:14 45:1 75:12 111:3 **reads** 156:7 **ready** 162:20 ,21 **real** 50:19 51:10 134:9 183:15 **realistic** 53:1 **reality** 143:9 **realize** 188:6 219:13 **realized** 45:22 **really** 5:2 ,5 26:2 56:2 63:9 70:16

103:3 106:17 110:4 169:4 175:19 181:16 ,19 187:3 188:13 ,14 189:3 191:19 192:10 ,21 194:15 194:19 195:5 ,8 199:16 202:7 205:6 206:22 208:9 ,18 ,20 212:12 213:1 219:17 220:12 ,13 221:12 224:14 ,19 **realm** 223:2

**rear** 141:19 **rearranged** 161:5

**reason** 39:7 49:3 171:17 194:14 202:8

**reasons** 63:9 79:20 79:20 212:12 **reboot** 162:17 **recall** 214:21 **recalling** 165:7 **receive** 106:7 **received** 7:4 13:18 24:19 27:20 76:13 90:6 152:12 167:14 176:21 **receptor** 135:11 **recirculated** 146:11 **recognized** 11:20 **recognizes** 34:13 176:20 **recommendation** 215:13 **recommendations** 50:13 **recommended** 151:19 178:17 213:19 **reconcile** 193:22

**reconvene** 161:14 **record** 8:6 ,12 9:15 84:19 110:8 ,9 161:19 ,20 165:16 166:10 181:14

191:12 202:22 229:19 **recorded** 170:1 **recording** 166:8 **red** 70:18 **redesign** 115:8 ,11 **reduce** 125:14 154:22 **reduced** 154:17 **refer** 12:21 190:6 **reference** 11:22 46:19 163:10 ,21 172:18 173:8 ,12 173:21 183:20 **referenced** 45:7 50:3 89:20 94:5 **references** 13:8 46:11 151:20 **referencing** 173:7 **referring** 158:12 **refers** 91:8 **reflecting** 15:11 61:4 122:22 **reflective** 55:19 **refrigerant** 177:3 **refrigerated** 18:19 23:8 ,11 ,14 31:13 31:16 32:21 35:2 43:20 65:12 66:1 66:2 69:2 ,7 77:5 82:11 91:20 93:5 93:13 101:6 121:1 181:14 186:13 187:1 ,9 ,16 188:21 189:7 ,9 ,10 ,15 212:19 219:19 ,21 220:19 ,20 222:9 **refrigeration** 1:3 ,17 1:18 ,22 2:6 4:6 6:7 10:10 11:18 12:17 13:11 14:20 15:2 16:22 17:15 17:19 18:2 ,4 ,20 19:14 ,17 20:1 21:9 25:13 26:1 26:10 27:13 ,14

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 249** 

28:14 31:12 34:21 48:13 61:2 64:2 65:11 ,22 71:22 73:21 75:2 ,18 ,22 76:6 ,11 ,12 78:16 90:20 91:10 92:1 92:13 93:4 ,12 97:8 104:13 ,14 107:20 118:18 119:22 152:17 168:14 ,15 169:15 186:21 188:6 192:6 203:15 228:3 ,7 **refrigerator** 12:2 13:2 43:5 ,6 64:7 ,9 64:16 ,21 65:9 ,9 66:5 ,11 67:1 ,4 ,9 67:17 ,19 68:6 ,7 70:1 72:12 74:6 75:15 ,15 77:2 ,4 77:13 83:18 93:1 93:16 97:9 104:10 104:21 105:8 ,19 106:19 107:1 ,8 112:12 113:11 ,12 113:19 114:22 118:4 ,6 128:18 146:21 **refrigerator-freez**

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**reg** 40:14 50:8 87:2 119:20 120:13 121:7 122:15 137:18 142:1 149:6 **regard** 21:3 **regarding** 15:5 18:13 19:1 27:22 64:12 120:2 163:5 167:15 176:16

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125:7 ,11 126:14 130:15 131:3 ,11 132:5 ,6 ,22 166:20 176:2 ,18 177:11 180:20 181:14 ,17 182:3 ,5 195:9 209:12 ,21 210:1 **remotes** 181:22 209:7 **removable** 35:4 39:16

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165:8 166:18 ,19 172:16 **requirements** 19:1 58:5 83:22 84:4 99:19 103:17 ,19 105:8 127:6 159:19 164:13 ,20 169:18 173:2 **requires** 111:10 115:7 **requiring** 51:1 **research** 17:5 **resemble** 19:15 **residential** 42:11 ,13 81:21 **resistance** 122:4 147:10 **resolution** 137:17 **resolving** 185:1 **respect** 56:15 119:18 160:4 **respond** 227:21
**response** 14:13 45:3 73:7 152:11 159:16 **restaurant** 135:7 **restaurants** 135:21 **restricted** 214:6 **restriction** 214:8 **restrooms** 109:22 161:17 **result** 148:1 149:8 **results** 163:8 165:3

**resume** 110:5 **retailer** 132:13 134:15 **retailers** 135:20

**reverse** 201:3 **review** 3:10 7:6 ,7 12:12 100:5 165:9 174:4 212:3 **reviewing** 45:21 47:3 **revise** 191:4 215:9 **revised** 157:7 180:16 **revision** 15:14

**revisions** 13:17 14:13 **rid** 128:6 **ridge** 200:21 **right** 16:13 ,16 18:17 21:15 ,18 22:2 23:16 26:20 33:17 34:12 36:7 36:17 37:11 ,21 38:3 41:11 ,14 45:3 49:10 51:8 52:12 59:20 67:10 71:11 ,12 77:3 81:3 84:8 ,10 86:15 94:2 96:2 ,9 101:20 102:14 103:1 108:19 116:3 119:11 ,13 119:14 121:19 133:20 136:3 ,5 137:6 148:13 151:6 156:14 159:15 161:21 162:13 164:20 165:10 166:9 ,13 167:5 ,5 174:4 177:16 179:3 182:15 185:21 191:11 194:12 ,13 195:7 ,14 196:4 197:6 ,9 198:13 201:1 202:12 203:6 206:20 207:1 ,10 208:6 212:15 216:7 ,11 220:19 226:7 ,15 226:21 **right's** 61:8 **right-hand** 22:5 67:21 **RIN** 11:9 228:13 **road** 102:7 211:19 **Ron** 1:23 76:5 106:10 108:13 119:3 ,4 ,6 125:19 125:21 126:2 ,5 ,5

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 250** 

127:17 ,18 128:10 131:2 162:9 ,10 179:20 ,21 180:12 **Ron's** 162:13

**room** 1:11 65:5 108:7 118:9 119:21 130:20 155:19 162:3

**rooms** 155:18 **Rosenquist** 2:9 6:20 ,20 **roughly** 159:1 **round** 7:18 **rounded** 164:3 ,11 166:3 ,4 **rounding** 163:7 164:5 ,17 165:3

**row** 86:2 **Royston** 1:20 2:3 6:8 82:7 84:22 136:17 **rule** 1:3 12:5 13:6 15:20 16:6 ,7 52:11 58:8 70:22 101:2 103:15 125:13 128:2 ,3 ,5 128:7 152:5 157:19 158:13 190:19 206:7 225:2 **rulemaking** 3:15 7:13 9:20 10:19 11:16 14:17 15:7 15:12 24:7 176:16 **rules** 123:20

**run** 24:13 ,15 52:15 75:6 ,8 99:4 103:5 107:7 ,8 113:7 134:12 145:20 160:5 174:13 ,15 178:21 179:1 **running** 112:14 172:2 ,6 229:7 ,8

**runs** 99:12 145:19 175:9

**S S.W**  1:12

**safe** 132:1 229:16 **safety** 131:17 134:9 **Safeway** 213:1 **sake** 207:22 **salad** 18:18 72:18 73:14 82:8 ,10 **sale** 28:3 29:3 114:6 132:21 **sales** 217:2 **samples** 24:14 39:18 **Sanders** 1:22 40:21 76:17 208:22 209:3 ,17 210:14 210:17 211:14 **sanitation** 140:7 **Sarah** 2:4 3:21 4:4 6:16 16:12 ,15 28:22 48:20 72:6 103:22 160:18 ,21 162:22 201:8 209:9

**save** 51:12 144:21 145:7 205:16

**saves** 216:21 **saving** 145:3 205:17 218:19

**saw** 57:4 **saying** 31:2 43:11 43:13 44:16 ,20 52:5 81:12 106:18 107:6 114:7 ,21 118:8 ,9 ,10 166:2 166:15 191:12 202:22 203:4 205:15 214:10 216:1 223:13 226:18
**says** 25:6 116:12 118:2 ,3 ,4 126:4 127:18 176:2 184:17 200:1 206:20 208:14 220:1 **scales** 146:21 **scenario** 103:9 186:6 ,8 187:7

188:13 189:6 190:7 ,8 195:18 199:6 ,17 201:5 ,19 205:14 216:15 219:6 ,8 220:6 ,12 222:16 223:11 ,12 223:14 ,17 **scenarios** 186:4 187:6 189:22 200:12 223:16 ,18 **schedule** 152:7 **scheduled** 158:2 **scheme** 150:22 **Schriner** 2:1 5:22 5:22 100:9 101:12 102:8 103:2 ,21 196:13 ,14 202:18 203:13 **scientific** 17:5
**scope** 3:19 7:15 16:18 ,20 18:20 19:4 ,12 64:1 98:12 **scrapped** 40:7 **seafood** 142:22 **second** 58:10 ,10 ,19 88:16 116:11 121:19 151:7 154:8 155:9 157:6 174:8 192:9 228:5 **Secretary** 12:5 ,11 **section** 19:11 68:18 109:4 122:11 149:5 160:6 ,19 ,22 175:22 177:12

**secure** 141:12 **security** 141:10 ,14

**see** 4:11 7:21 ,21 9:18 10:21 16:11 18:11 49:13 52:19 52:22 54:3 ,8 55:17 66:15 70:13 71:11 87:11 102:21 133:21 148:2 151:5 163:13 181:11 186:10 189:16

192:1 ,12 ,14 194:14 196:16 197:1 ,12 ,21 ,22 198:2 ,4 ,7 ,14 200:4 ,5 202:5 204:18 208:16 212:21 ,22 213:2 ,5 216:17 217:15 220:14 228:2 **see-through** 53:10 **seeing** 194:16 **seek** 149:10 **seeking** 206:9

**seen** 76:22 77:14 120:17 192:11 ,18 194:10 207:17 222:18 223:5 **select** 170:16 **self** 17:11 60:12 99:10 125:22 **self-contained** 12:2 60:16 72:19 123:14 ,20 124:17 130:11 ,15 207:14 209:22 **self-ice** 192:13 **self-serve** 53:8 **sell** 26:22 47:22 111:19 113:10 187:5 188:8 207:10 212:15 218:19 **selling** 135:20 136:12 153:22 217:5 218:18 **semi** 225:17 **semi-vertical** 85:22 86:5 **semi-vertically** 17:8 **send** 9:12 10:16

**sense** 73:18 108:9 135:15 136:13 145:10 154:17 191:21 211:17

**sensor** 158:9

**sensors** 152:6 155:14 158:2

**sent** 11:10 ,11 **sentence** 39:14 **separate** 30:4 31:2 72:3 74:7 75:3 76:1 ,11 84:8 86:7 131:14 ,15 **separated** 69:3 ,4 ,17 69:19 ,20 71:9 77:7 80:3 **separately** 78:8 124:9 150:21 **separates** 31:13 34:20 **separating** 32:21 69:6 **separation** 71:13 71:17 ,20 76:19 **separator** 71:1 **series** 57:12 **serious** 50:19

**serve** 121:4 137:10 **service** 54:21 55:14 55:17 57:2 ,8 72:16 73:10 74:11 78:14 193:8 219:1 **sessions** 119:20 137:18 142:1 149:6 **set** 17:17 58:19 ,21 122:8 124:22 138:1 139:15 144:14 153:2 176:8 177:12 178:17 185:14 190:17 198:19 200:12 **setting** 99:21 137:22 153:1 171:4 ,21 177:22 191:1 **setup** 126:18 **Seventy-two** 151:16

**severe** 51:7 **shading** 52:16 **shaft** 110:2

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**shaking** 215:21 **share** 8:17 75:3 ,9 76:6 77:5 **shared** 75:22 **sharing** 75:5 81:20 82:2 **she'll** 9:14 30:15 **Shebik** 1:23 76:5 179:22 180:4 ,11 180:14 **sheet** 46:22 **shelf** 71:2 ,5 72:1 ,4 76:20 77:14 153:13 ,13 208:3 ,4 208:6 **shelves** 71:21 153:11 208:7 ,8 ,13 **ship** 30:3 ,4 **shipped** 28:2 ,7 ,9 124:6 ,7 138:6 **shipping** 117:3 **shop** 78:19 **shortly** 106:3 **show** 97:12 ,17 185:14 188:9 199:5 225:11 **showing** 22:2 192:17 **shown** 22:5 225:20 **shows** 186:6 ,8 **side** 22:5 58:12 66:11 67:21 88:21 88:22 182:15 198:5 220:11 **sidebar** 8:15 **sides** 79:12 192:15 **sideways** 197:19 ,21 197:22 **signage** 120:22 **significant** 167:1 ,7 **significantly** 215:14 **signs** 120:21 **silent** 8:15 **similar** 21:8 28:9 42:11 74:22 92:19 122:7 132:16 193:13 214:3 **similarly** 18:1 23:3

56:6 89:19 92:15 163:20 **simple** 210:3 **simplify** 81:9 **simplifying** 118:16 **simply** 140:17 209:20 **simulators** 159:20 160:2 ,12 **single** 65:17 79:16 80:1 82:1 85:1 113:11 **singular** 30:13 **sit** 208:18 **sitting** 49:12 **situation** 82:9 139:13 **situations** 199:5 **Sixty-five** 52:13 **sizable** 134:21 **size** 62:20 ,21 63:5 ,6 134:11 177:5 **sized** 131:22 **sizing** 177:3 ,10 **skip** 10:3 **skipped** 9:22 **sliced** 78:22 **slicers** 146:22 **slide** 11:11 16:2 17:21 18:12 29:22 30:9 34:9 35:8 37:18 64:22 65:4 77:12 85:17 94:3 104:9 110:14 116:11 130:14 ,16 130:22 143:10 155:3 167:17 176:14 178:11 207:8 228:1 **slide's** 96:3 **slides** 16:17 21:10 21:11 22:1 120:7 161:4 ,5 167:11 ,19 185:12 ,14 189:19 200:16 225:10 229:11 **sliding** 35:6 37:18

38:12 40:2 ,16 44:13 ,20 53:11 193:9 **slightly** 66:20 175:9 **small** 46:10 98:22 126:22 132:14 135:18 ,21 207:15 **smaller** 63:1 ,12 189:8 205:15 **smiling** 49:13 **smoothly** 120:16

**snow** 229:17 **software** 9:9 ,13 **solar** 46:22 **sold** 26:13 ,17 29:9 65:17 132:6 **solely** 121:8 **solid** 46:3 50:22 51:6 ,21 53:19 55:1 56:11 ,12 ,17 56:21 ,22 57:14 ,19 58:4 ,22 59:16 61:6 62:2 ,6 63:20 67:12 ,13 ,15 68:4 68:5 ,20 69:6 70:3 70:8 71:1 ,2 ,5 72:4 86:1 ,4 153:3 157:14 206:21 207:2 208:13 209:4 210:1 **solidness** 57:20 **solution** 213:14 ,14 **Solutions** 1:16 4:10 **solve** 215:22 **somebody** 136:6 198:13 **someplace** 124:8 **somewhat** 117:7 ,8 138:18 145:16

**soon** 229:14
**sorry** 70:10 81:17 97:14 126:5 178:20 180:11 **sort** 63:18 65:1 ,4 122:2 137:15 145:21 168:10 197:17 205:13

206:15 207:13 213:11 **sorts** 141:3 **sounds** 39:9 179:2 **Southern** 1:21 5:18 21:22 25:4 32:16 53:6 83:2 86:11 118:11 143:4 148:6 165:1 166:5 181:9 192:4 207:19 213:17 215:16
**space** 31:14 35:2 43:10 ,20 82:11 132:14 189:9 197:14 206:17 207:11 208:10 222:9
**spaces** 69:2 75:5 216:17
**span** 94:7 104:16 128:14
**spans** 107:1 **speak** 8:10 ,11 41:19 106:15 119:4 ,5 125:11 ,20 126:4 156:20 162:2 ,10 179:21 196:11 209:1 ,2 **speaking** 129:11 218:22 **speaks** 171:18 **special** 21:1 **specific** 13:12 14:10 15:2 19:19 22:16 62:4 99:19 115:21 120:3 ,8 131:8 143:6 149:5 150:3 152:5 ,7 159:19 160:1 180:21 **specifically** 57:11 74:16 114:6 158:11 180:19 206:12 **specifications** 35:14 **specifics** 23:15 **specified** 100:18

140:15 142:6 160:13 168:3 169:6 172:17 173:2 176:10 **specifies** 55:1 **specify** 22:10 23:5 23:21 64:19 151:14 169:2 **spectral** 51:17 **spelled** 130:12 **spend** 123:11 139:1 139:8 **spent** 131:19 **split** 62:12 **spring** 16:6
**square** 211:4 **stabilization** 122:13 122:17 ,21 160:4 160:15 172:16 173:2 **stabilized** 160:10 **stakeholder** 149:9 **Stakeholders** 159:18 **stand** 18:11 19:20 19:22 26:4 ,5 ,18 198:4 **standard** 11:22 12:19 ,20 ,21 13:1 14:4 32:1 ,9 39:22 40:1 47:8 ,15 ,18 48:11 60:5 ,9 65:16 82:15 101:9 111:3 130:6 137:13 151:17 155:1 163:10 ,12 165:4 166:17 173:8 175:10 176:7 190:16 ,17 191:1 ,4 ,8 199:10 203:4 208:21 209:11 ,11 ,15 212:9 215:19 **standards** 12:8 17:17 ,20 18:10 ,16 19:2 ,4 ,7 ,9 ,10

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20:11 24:16 27:9 27:16 ,18 28:1 30:7 44:16 52:11 56:16 59:22 60:3 64:3 65:16 73:10 81:9 85:18 89:22 90:17 ,18 93:10 97:20 100:17 101:8 ,19 102:4 103:6 ,6 ,10 112:19 112:21 113:2 ,13 114:2 154:12 157:7 158:19 159:11 ,14 163:12 163:15 ,20 183:21 183:22 ,22 184:1 191:15 ,22 210:7 225:4 **standpoint** 26:3 **stands** 130:1 131:6 **Starr** 2:2 6:10 ,10 36:12 113:17 ,17 115:16 116:3 ,7 126:20 ,20 133:11 133:11 ,20 134:7 134:17 136:3 144:19 ,19 **start** 4:13 5:11 ,11 7:2 11:15 59:1 122:17 ,20 154:15 154:20 ,21 158:15 161:22 186:4 190:8 202:4 **started** 195:3 205:14 **starting** 51:12 **starts** 160:21 221:4 **state** 122:13 138:6 148:18 160:6 ,7 172:16 225:3 **stated** 163:18 **statement** 10:2 **statements** 3:11 7:10 8:6 10:2 155:13 **states** 12:4 136:19 149:14 151:10 ,16 160:5 192:7

**static** 122:1 **station** 192:13 **status** 140:13 **statute** 12:14 **stay** 193:18 **steady** 122:13 160:6 ,7 172:16 **steak** 26:19 **stems** 119:19 **step** 9:22 10:3 28:21 132:4 183:14 211:17 **Steve** 82:6 136:16 **Steven** 1:20 6:8 82:5 136:15 **stick** 218:4 223:12 **stickler** 51:10 **stop** 208:2 226:1 **stops** 226:5 ,16 **storage** 70:20 107:16 192:12 **store** 1:21 5:18 21:22 25:4 32:16 53:7 83:3 86:11 118:12 124:2 127:11 132:15 137:1 143:5 148:6 165:2 166:6 181:10 192:4 207:20 212:9 213:18 215:17 **stores** 17:6 123:10 127:9 135:22 ,22 **storing** 95:20 **straight** 196:17 204:14 ,15 ,16 205:2 **straps** 141:11 **stringency** 59:22 125:8 191:14 **stringent** 51:21 124:22 **strip** 123:8 132:15 **strongly** 125:20 ,21 **struggle** 175:5 **stuff** 9:18 135:1 ,6 136:5 ,8 166:12

207:2 **subject** 18:22 19:2 27:17 32:8 73:9 84:7 97:19 101:9 **subjective** 198:12 **submission** 60:2 **submit** 11:8 42:5 50:9 54:12 100:6 102:18 103:18 108:8 130:18 164:1 228:14 **submitted** 101:7 190:13 **subsequent** 167:6 167:19 **substantially** 63:11 **subtract** 191:6 **successful** 9:4 **suction** 99:21 **sudden** 53:18 55:10 146:4 **suddenly** 51:20 **sufficiency** 68:13 **sufficient** 39:2 100:6 **sufficiently** 119:11 162:12 **suggest** 58:6 139:11 **suggestion** 176:21 **suggestions** 54:12 174:22 **Suharno** 2:3 84:21 84:21

**sum** 186:16 188:1 189:4
**summary** 7:10 10:14 13:20 ,21

**summer** 14:16 119:20 **sunlight** 47:1 51:9 **supermarkets** 218:7 **supplemental** 121:8 146:9 **supplied** 99:9 **support** 63:9 136:20

**supposed** 43:6 109:14

**sure** 8:7 35:22 51:22 77:22 82:20 94:8 106:12 144:4 148:14 149:4 178:7 198:15 205:21 229:6 **surface** 61:15 63:7 **Surprise** 44:6 **sustain** 109:18 **sweat** 137:8 145:20 **switch** 85:1 118:15 118:20 152:13 157:15 209:20 **switches** 111:13 **system** 10:17 61:2 ,3 73:21 75:2 ,3 ,22 76:7 ,12 98:20 ,22 99:3 ,7 116:19 117:5 137:2 138:4 144:11 147:19 150:7 ,22 151:1 152:14 ,19 158:8 **systems** 75:18 76:1 76:7 ,12 104:14 142:20 143:1 ,7 ,7 146:9 149:13 ,21 158:5 ,12

**T table**  49:13 65:16 73:14 ,14 85:18 90:17 ,18 91:8 **tables** 18:18 ,18 ,18 **take** 7:17 24:21 28:19 33:9 37:2 38:9 42:9 ,14 78:14 106:4 109:5 127:12 132:4 161:14 178:20 179:15 222:8 **taken** 92:4 185:13 **talk** 37:7 43:4 65:2 88:2 110:12 183:6 **talking** 24:1 43:8 43:17 60:12 62:3

88:4 119:15 126:22 160:22 193:7 196:16 210:21 **tampering** 141:13 **task** 81:5 **TDA** 41:5 ,10 55:8 ,9 55:11 161:4 ,5 163:6 183:6 ,11 ,13 185:8 ,17 ,19 186:5 188:20 191:7 ,13 191:17 ,18 ,19 193:16 ,22 194:20 195:4 ,8 ,15 196:7 196:8 206:16 209:8 ,13 ,14 210:6 210:9 ,22 211:4 ,18 212:8 ,10 ,13 213:10 215:6 220:1 222:7 **TDA-type** 217:20 **TDEC** 151:15 166:2 **technical** 26:3 59:11 **technically** 57:16 57:18 107:19 **teleconference** 2:1 **tell** 49:19 52:9 74:17 80:20 81:12 81:14 85:7 117:22 196:1 **telling** 87:19 102:22 112:5 **temp** 75:17 84:22 85:2 ,2 113:4 ,5 ,7 114:21 115:10 ,12 116:21 ,22 118:12 118:14 **temperature** 13:13 13:14 17:10 ,11 66:22 67:1 ,6 ,16 68:6 72:3 77:9 ,11 79:17 80:1 83:22 84:2 ,3 ,15 86:14 86:18 ,19 ,21 88:6

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 253** 

88:21 89:22 90:2 90:3 ,4 ,12 ,13 ,16 90:19 91:2 ,4 ,6 ,7 91:19 ,21 92:3 ,8 ,9 92:10 ,11 ,21 93:9 94:6 ,12 95:4 ,6 97:18 98:1 ,2 ,8 ,15 99:17 ,22 100:1 ,2 100:3 ,10 ,12 101:3 101:11 ,21 102:13 103:11 104:19 105:12 ,17 ,18 ,21 111:4 ,5 ,8 ,14 112:7 ,9 ,10 ,11 113:16 115:18 116:17 ,20 119:2 129:2 ,4 ,8 140:11 140:22 147:12 150:8 ,9 ,12 ,14 160:4 ,13 167:12 167:21 168:1 ,2 ,3 168:5 ,8 ,16 ,19 ,21 169:5 ,7 ,13 ,17 ,20 169:22 170:1 ,3 ,7 170:10 ,19 171:8 171:19 172:1 ,5 ,9 172:12 ,13 ,22 173:1 ,5 ,16 175:2 176:4 ,5 ,6 ,7 ,10 ,18 177:6 ,8 ,12 ,14 178:1 ,14 ,15 179:5 179:11 ,14 181:2 **temperature-wise** 84:13 **temperatures** 17:6 20:5 26:19 66:21 70:20 75:9 ,16 82:3 85:12 86:7 87:1 ,2 88:17 89:19 ,20 90:8 91:9 92:12 96:11 96:12 98:6 101:6 104:15 ,15 108:4 111:11 114:14 128:15 ,21 ,22 159:17 166:11 167:4 182:4 ,7 **templates** 81:3

**temporary** 22:12 22:22 **temps** 70:15 111:21 128:12 ,16 129:14 130:6 **tense** 194:13 **term** 31:10 35:14 **terminology** 56:18 127:19 **terms** 14:5 56:15 86:2 90:14 ,15 163:17 167:1 177:3 182:13 185:17 **test** 1:3 3:19 4:1 ,3 ,6 4:17 7:15 ,19 8:2 10:9 ,11 11:17 12:1 ,6 ,10 ,13 ,15 12:17 ,18 ,22 13:3 13:6 ,7 ,8 ,9 ,16 ,18 14:2 ,8 ,10 ,13 15:3 15:10 16:18 17:21 18:1 ,5 ,8 ,12 ,15 ,21 22:4 ,7 ,10 ,14 ,19 23:5 ,5 ,10 ,17 24:10 ,13 ,16 27:9 28:1 29:13 30:6 32:3 45:7 ,22 46:14 ,15 ,18 ,21 47:8 48:4 ,7 ,22 49:1 ,9 52:8 72:14 73:9 ,16 74:17 86:13 ,19 87:9 88:14 89:21 90:4 90:22 91:19 ,22 92:3 ,4 96:7 97:20 98:6 ,7 ,7 ,21 99:1 ,2 99:8 ,15 ,18 100:20 101:1 ,5 102:12 103:5 107:7 ,8 111:7 112:6 ,10 ,14 119:16 120:3 ,10 121:12 122:12 ,20 123:3 124:13 129:18 ,19 130:5 130:11 133:8 137:20 139:19

140:9 ,19 141:7 ,15 142:11 143:2 145:17 ,18 146:14 147:3 ,17 148:1 149:14 ,18 ,19 150:1 ,14 ,19 151:2 151:9 ,12 152:4 ,10 152:21 153:16 155:17 ,19 156:7 156:22 157:13 ,19 158:8 ,12 159:9 ,17 159:19 ,20 160:2 160:12 163:2 ,8 ,9 163:21 164:7 ,14 164:19 165:3 169:18 ,19 170:1 170:16 171:6 ,20 171:22 172:4 ,19 173:9 ,12 176:15 184:6 ,9 ,21 ,22 205:16 209:15 224:21 225:2 228:4 ,15 **tested** 13:13 18:5 18:12 ,21 27:17 28:7 32:3 48:11 74:12 90:10 97:18 98:14 101:4 105:5 111:5 114:8 124:14 126:17 127:18 129:2 133:1 138:12 139:5 143:12 ,13 144:3 152:19 153:14 156:13 158:10 170:12 175:15 **tester** 139:18 **testing** 4:19 11:19 22:3 52:21 86:12 87:10 92:10 112:9 112:16 121:12 122:14 127:20 129:13 137:20 141:15 142:3 143:8 146:14 147:3 149:14

152:2 153:8 154:16 ,20 ,21 166:8 172:18 184:16 **tests** 102:10 112:15 **text** 50:8 ,10 **thank** 5:9 16:13 21:18 27:3 34:4 36:9 37:11 ,13 53:4 56:4 ,5 62:15 63:14 74:19 94:12 96:16 103:21 111:22 115:14 140:3 148:16 159:4 165:10 ,20 167:8 180:14 183:3 211:20 ,22 212:1 222:11 224:12 227:1 ,2 ,6 227:11 **thanks** 5:8 6:22 7:1 16:14 27:4 30:20 119:13 137:6 180:12 228:18 229:2 ,15 **thea** 15:17 **theft** 141:12 **theoretically** 51:14 **thermally** 69:3 80:11 81:16 **thermostat** 171:4 ,9 171:16 ,21 172:21 176:3 180:20 181:15 ,17 **thermostats** 176:19 **thick** 200:5 **thickness** 198:20 199:2 **thing** 62:17 72:9 75:12 107:18 111:2 115:22 122:2 127:2 129:18 134:17 137:16 164:4 174:8 177:19 ,22 184:14 209:7 212:6

**things** 5:5 11:10 18:6 40:17 43:14 45:2 58:2 68:9 72:1 82:17 85:21 86:3 ,6 96:8 135:22 136:10 138:19 144:20 145:22 161:1 173:17 198:2 200:8 208:17 216:13 219:2 **think** 9:17 27:5 29:6 ,18 34:1 40:5 40:12 41:2 ,14 ,19 42:19 ,20 44:8 ,11 44:11 ,13 ,18 ,20 52:1 ,4 53:2 54:15 54:21 55:3 59:6 60:2 61:11 ,13 ,17 62:6 ,8 72:6 73:5 75:1 77:4 78:11 78:12 80:13 89:16 94:3 95:5 103:14 110:12 ,19 ,21 114:5 117:7 119:10 121:17 127:17 129:17 131:8 ,18 144:7 ,20 145:3 154:6 ,7 162:3 173:19 174:19 ,19 179:21 185:8 188:2 190:1 192:19 195:3 ,19 196:3 199:6 ,21 203:9 205:5 210:2 211:8 212:12 214:4 219:7 220:18 222:5 ,22 224:3 226:3 227:7 **thinking** 44:15 47:20 109:12 206:2 224:15 **third** 211:6 **thought** 94:11 111:3 129:14 130:9 148:7

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 254** 

154:15 175:19 206:4 223:10 **thoughts** 21:19 89:15 109:1 110:13 ,17 206:11 221:20 222:14 **thousands** 132:17 132:17 **three** 19:4 36:2 89:19 108:12 186:10 188:19 210:19 211:18 221:5 **three-shelf** 153:19 **threshold** 198:19 **thumbs** 25:1 **tiebreaker** 48:14 **tied** 157:7 158:18 **Tiedeman** 2:3 6:12 6:12 **till** 155:2 160:5 **Tim** 1:16 5:13 72:5 116:8 ,9 125:3 127:4 131:9 132:9 133:5 ,16 135:19 175:21 178:6 180:5 182:11 190:8 ,10 198:17 218:5 ,6 225:4 **time** 4:22 8:10 ,11 8:18 20:11 45:15 99:4 ,10 109:14 ,19 110:12 144:12 149:15 152:7 155:15 156:8 ,8 157:3 ,8 195:4 213:11 ,15 ,20 **timeline** 3:15 7:13 9:20 16:3 **times** 42:12 53:9 171:8 ,16 **tint** 51:14 **tinting** 51:13 **today** 4:8 5:2 8:3 16:4 82:13 ,20 101:16 ,20 109:8 129:19 ,22 130:2 132:6 157:5 ,5 ,10

157:10 167:13 191:15 206:7 227:17 **today's** 10:8 13:16 183:11 **toggle** 107:4 115:1 118:2 ,15 **told** 112:15 **tool** 39:20 **tools** 35:5 39:16 40:3 **top** 20:4 21:17 25:15 26:15 58:21 99:20 124:7 154:4 211:1 ,5 214:7 226:11 228:3 **total** 60:6 ,7 ,14 218:8 **totally** 70:9 **touched** 224:18 **toyed** 197:6 **TP** 15:14 ,15 16:5 228:1 **transcript** 8:13 49:18 **transient** 144:14 **transmission** 9:5 **transmittance** 46:12 ,17 ,22 47:6 47:14 50:21 51:16 51:20 52:17 **transparency** 46:5 46:9 ,11 48:2 70:3 **transparent** 32:12 46:4 47:7 ,12 ,12 48:5 ,9 49:6 51:4 52:6 53:12 54:17 54:18 55:2 ,10 56:7 ,10 ,11 ,13 ,17 56:21 57:3 ,4 ,6 ,9 58:16 62:10 63:20 66:16 ,18 67:3 ,9 67:14 70:2 ,3 ,7 85:22 86:1 ,3 137:9 206:21 209:12 ,21 226:1 **Traulsen** 1:18 ,22

5:21 **travel** 4:22 **travels** 229:16 **treated** 53:14 120:10 142:8 **treatment** 14:22 15:5 119:18 120:2 152:6 **trench** 132:18 **tried** 42:9 81:1 **trim** 57:17 **trouble** 38:19 182:10 228:20 **True** 1:19 5:19 20:17 24:9 26:12 50:18 68:16 155:10 174:2 **try** 41:7 50:5 109:12 119:6 126:3 199:5 **trying** 9:3 15:8 29:4 40:13 51:11 52:5 62:8 80:17 81:5 ,8 82:19 97:12 ,17 ,21 98:10 133:21 134:1 135:14 187:5 188:7 189:22 190:12 208:17 211:3 **turn** 58:3 99:12 100:15 139:14 ,21 153:5 155:16 ,21 191:20 **turned** 107:18 138:1 ,19 140:9 152:9 153:1 174:18 **turning** 171:9 ,16 172:20 181:12 **Twenty-four** 30:18 **two** 18:6 24:22 29:6 36:6 56:20 64:18 65:12 ,13 ,18 ,22 66:16 67:13 68:2 68:18 ,19 ,21 69:2 71:1 ,2 74:7 75:3 ,4 75:5 ,10 ,16 ,18 ,19

76:1 ,3 83:4 ,11 85:10 88:9 ,16 92:6 102:9 107:4 108:11 114:14 128:11 129:13 130:5 157:1 173:3 189:16 206:21 222:14 224:21 226:22 **two-dimensional** 210:22 211:17 **two-door** 79:9 **two-shelf** 153:18 **two-speed** 111:16 **type** 20:10 22:17 23:22 25:11 ,22 26:4 27:1 52:16 61:3 69:21 75:12 78:17 84:3 94:4 123:8 193:6 212:9 219:11 **types** 17:18 ,22 18:2 18:3 19:5 ,13 ,16 21:6 22:13 23:15 26:13 43:14 121:21 142:13 **typical** 81:21 192:5 219:17 **typically** 5:10 47:2 47:9 111:15 132:13 135:20 182:14 ,16 193:2 220:15

**U U.S**  1:1 4:4 **UL** 131:17 133:21 **ultimately** 40:8 197:15 206:6 **understand** 44:11 49:12 52:2 59:21 74:5 78:5 81:6 87:6 88:7 106:13 112:13 115:4 ,5 117:19 135:7 ,14 178:8 182:2 183:19 186:20

189:18 190:2 **understanding** 25:11 42:11 ,15 80:4 182:3 212:16 **understood** 49:11 129:11 **unfairly** 191:8 **unfortunately** 33:11 58:9 155:17 **unhindered** 123:1 **uniform** 99:15 **unique** 19:16 25:12 76:7 141:18 207:3 **uniqueness** 129:12 **unit** 27:15 28:6 ,7 30:3 ,5 ,14 31:12 31:17 34:21 41:16 41:17 ,20 42:3 ,10 42:22 43:9 55:17 55:18 57:2 ,9 58:12 61:10 65:10 65:17 ,21 66:15 67:5 70:8 72:18 72:20 75:1 ,13 76:22 78:15 ,17 80:5 83:10 84:22 85:13 ,15 91:10 92:9 ,13 93:4 ,6 ,11 93:13 ,17 97:6 98:18 ,19 ,22 99:7 99:11 ,12 111:4 113:11 126:18 132:21 138:6 141:12 147:6 ,13 150:18 156:1 158:6 ,7 159:22 160:5 ,8 168:6 170:16 ,17 ,21 ,22 171:20 172:1 ,5 175:15 178:21 179:1 182:8 ,15 201:7 **unit's** 81:13 **unitary** 144:4 **United** 136:19 192:7

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 255** 

**units** 20:19 ,21 29:8 55:14 ,16 57:12 ,13 57:22 58:4 ,7 ,12 58:13 59:9 60:22 61:7 75:6 79:10 107:12 144:4 146:17 147:10 164:2 168:22 169:8 171:11 174:10 192:12 **unlit** 154:2 **unloading** 35:3 **unmute** 106:13 126:3 209:1 **unmuted** 108:14 ,18 119:4 **unusual** 69:10 182:5 **updated** 13:8 154:17 **upsize** 61:2 ,10 **upwards** 141:21 **USA** 2:1 6:1 196:13 **usable** 208:10 **usage** 138:1 153:2

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**user** 107:3 138:5 139:13 ,18 ,20 ,21

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 256** 

223:5 224:17

**wear** 109:21 **weather** 109:11 **web** 9:2 ,4 16:2 40:21 76:5 162:2 162:5 228:1 ,2 ,4 ,5 **Weber** 2:4 4:2 6:18 6:18 54:19 ,19 119:13 121:19 137:6 140:6 141:1 141:10 142:19 146:7 ,16 147:8 149:4 151:6 155:3 155:6 156:2 ,6 ,19 158:18 159:15 **webinar** 5:1 60:2 162:15 ,17 183:9 **webmaster** 9:9 **WEDNESDAY** 1:8 **week** 80:21 155:20 **welcome** 3:10 4:4 4:16 7:1 9:2 25:17 42:5 50:17 88:12 108:8 179:21 186:7 206:8 209:1 **welcomes** 181:4 **welcoming** 4:14 **went** 12:3 110:8 ,8 148:22 161:19 ,19 212:8 ,13 229:19 **wheels** 181:12 **white** 70:18 **wicking** 122:1 **Widder** 2:4 3:21 4:4 6:16 ,16 16:12 16:13 ,16 20:14 21:2 ,15 ,18 22:6 23:3 24:5 25:2 ,10 26:9 ,20 27:3 ,7 29:1 ,11 ,16 30:10 30:16 31:5 33:1 ,4 33:20 34:5 ,8 ,12 35:12 ,18 ,22 36:4 36:8 ,17 37:5 ,11 37:21 38:3 ,5 ,10 38:16 ,20 41:11 ,14 42:4 45:3 ,19 48:17 50:7 53:21

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**worry** 200:8

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**X**

**Y Yay**  180:3
**year** 158:17 174:5
**years** 12:12 216:19 **yogurts** 213:2

**Z Zelinski**  2:5 6:2 ,2 126:9 221:22

**zero** 1:19 5:16 66:18 68:3 69:16 123:6 127:8

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**0 0.01**  163:18 164:3 164:11 **0.1** 166:3 ,4

**1 1**  12:3 39:1 57:13 59:9 109:14 ,18 125:12 132:11 136:12 186:6 ,8 193:2 199:17 214:2 216:22 218:16 219:6 220:6 223:11 ,12 223:14 **1:15** 8:3 **10** 3:16 19:9 20:15 34:19 64:17 65:14 70:19 99:4 110:6 110:6 170:19 191:6 194:15 198:6 **10-foot** 196:17 **10:30** 7:18 **10:34** 110:8 **10:35** 109:6 **10:54** 110:9 **100** 144:12 **1000** 1:11 **11** 110:6 ,6 **11:39** 161:19 **11:48** 161:20 **117** 12:5 ,7 ,11 **119** 4:1 **12** 160:9 198:6 **12-inch** 200:20

**12.7** 214:21 **12:52** 229:19 **1200** 163:13 176:8 215:19 **1200-2006** 12:19 151:13 163:10 173:10 **1200-2010** 151:13 173:11 **13** 10:20 11:13 228:17 **14** 45:15 **15** 94:11 ,15 95:4 ,6 95:22 96:7 ,8 99:4 104:19 105:11 135:4 199:3 216:19 **16** 3:20 **163** 4:3

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 257** 

16:6 174:7 228:17 **2017** 155:2 158:15 158:21 190:19 **2017-ish** 159:13 225:5 **21** 13:5 **227** 4:6 **24** 29:22 **25** 57:1 **26** 30:9 **28** 16:4 170:9

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64:17 **431.64** 91:19 **431.66** 19:9 65:15 85:19 **431.66(d)(1)** 90:17 **45** 53:1 59:11 ,14 60:7

**5 5**  1:8 4:8 95:7 ,14 ,18 96:4 161:14 ,16 176:8 177:16 178:20 ,21 179:3 ,7 179:8 ,9 ,10 **5-minute** 161:8 ,8 161:11 ,15 **50** 53:1 ,2 57:18 ,21 59:3 ,6 ,9 ,10 61:9 61:20 62:4 ,5 87:11 88:19 ,22 129:6 **50/50** 61:1 ,11 62:12

**6 6**  170:19 198:3 200:20 **6.1.1** 151:16 **6.2** 160:3 **63** 176:14 178:11 **64** 51:15 ,19 **65** 46:11 47:13 50:21 51:22 52:17 52:22

**7 7**  12:12 **7.4** 160:5 **70** 225:14 **72** 24:16 122:11 160:1 165:4 166:6 166:17 173:22 **72-2000** 45:14 **72-2005** 12:21 45:8 173:7 174:3 **75** 57:7 58:8 59:2 **75-55** 139:15 **8**

**8** 169:2 170:8 ,13 178:10 ,12 ,15 ,18 182:18 **8E-089** 1:11

**9 9:00**  1:12 **9:01** 4:2 **99.5** 219:13

You created this PDF from an application that is not licensed to print to novaPDF printer ( http://www.novapdf.com )NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under

my direction; further, that said transcript is a

true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 258

Commercial Refrigeration Equipment Notice of Proposed Rulemaking

US DOE

12-05-13

Washington, DC