1

1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4

5

6 Public Hearing on

7 Proposed Clean Power Plan for

8 Existing Power Plants

9

10

11

12 9:01 a.m. to 6:47 p.m.

13 Wednesday, July 30, 2014

14

15 Room 1153 A

16 William Jefferson Clinton East Building 

17 1201 Constitution Avenue Northwest

18 Washington, D.C. 20004

19

20

21

22

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1 EPA PANEL 1:

2 SARAH DUNHAM, Panel 1 Chair; EPA 

3 AMY VASU, EPA 

4 ERICH ESCHMANN, EPA

5

6 EPA PANEL 2:

7 STEVE PAGE, Panel 2 Chair; Director of the Office 

8 of Air Quality Planning and Standards, EPA 

9 DAVID SOLOMON, Office of Air Quality Planning 

10 Standards, EPA

11 CHRIS SHERRY, Office of Atmospheric Programs, EPA

12

13 EPA PANEL 3:

14 STEVE PAGE, Panel 3 Chair; Director of the Office 

15 of Air Quality Planning and Standards, EPA

16 GABRIELLE STEVENS, Environmental Scientist, 

17 Office of Atmospheric Programs

18 BETH CONLIN, Environmental Protection Specialist, 

19 Office of Atmospheric Programs

20

21

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1 C O N T E N T S

2 PAGE

3 LEE LARSON 14

4 KAREN HARBERT, President Institute for 21st 19

5 Century Energy at U.S. Chamber of Commerce

6 HOWARD FELDMAN, American Petroleum Institute 24

7 AUGUSTA WILSON, Attorney Clean Air Council 30

8 MICHALENE REILLY, Hoosier Energy Rural 35

9 Electric Cooperative

10 CHRISTOPHER VANDEVENTER, Basin Electric 39

11 Power Cooperative

12 SENATOR BENJAMIN CARDIN 45

13 LIZ PERERA, Resident of Maryland 49

14 LON HUBER, Arizona Residential Utility 55

15 Consumer Office 

16 THERESA PUGH, American Public Power Assoc. 60

17 SETH HEALD, Resident of Virginia 65

18 SENATOR MITCH MCCONNELL 69

19 JIMMY ROSE, Resident of Kentucky 75

20 BILL BISSETT, President Kentucky Coal 78

21 Association and Organization

22 PAUL FAETH, Institute for Public Research 85

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 JULIE HANTMAN, Moms Clean Air Force 91

4 ROSALYN HANTMAN, United States Citizen 95

5 ALAN HANTMAN, United States Citizen 95

6 JOHN TAYLOR, United States Citizen 100

7 THOMAS HELLER, Missouri River Energy Svc 105

8 RICHARD CAPERTON, OPower 109

9 TOBY SHORT, Duke Energy Corporation 115

10 THOMAS EASTERLY, Indiana Department 118

11 of Environmental Management

12 TARA PASCAROSA-DUFF, Resident of Virginia 123

13 LINDA BURCHFIEL, United States Citizen 125

14 KAREN MELTON, Chester County Citizens 130

15 for Climate Protection

16 JACK SEARS, Student Colby College 134

17 JANIE WISE, Ormat Technologies 139

18 CHARLES YODER, United States Citizen 142

19 JULIAN BOGGS, Environment America 146

20 SHELLEY VINYARD, Environment America 150

21 SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS 154

22 TOM CARLSON, Advanced Energy Economy 169

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 ZABRINA ARNOVITZ 175

4 JAMES DUFFY, Clean Air Task Force 176

5 HERB SIMMENS, Resident Washington, D.C. 182

6 ALEX TREBATOSKI, Student at College of 185

7 St. Benedict and St. John's University

8 MARY FEEHERRY, Resident of D.C. 191

9 WILLIAM ROSENOW, United States Citizen 195

10 ERIN HODGE, Student at Boston College 200

11 NICOLE BRODER, College of William and Mary 202

12 SAMANTHA DUTHE, Student at Niagara University 206

13 ROBERT JAGUSCH, Minnesota Municipal 209

14 Utilities Association

15 JENNIFER KEFER, Alliance for Industrial 216

16 Efficiency

17 MONIQUE HANIS, Resident of Arlington, VA 222

18 DAVID CASH, Massachusetts Department of 227

19 Environmental Protection

20 JEREMY RICHARDSON, Union of Concerned 234

21 Scientists

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 LAUREN SHINABERRY, 240

4 Student at University of Michigan Dearborn

5 JESSICA JONES, United States Citizen 245

6 WILLIAM PENNIMAN, Resident of Virginia 248

7 ALAN LOEB, Attorney 254

8 KARA RINALDI, Home Performance Coalition 260

9 FLOYD GILZOW, Missouri Joint Municipal 267

10 Utility Commission

11 STEFAN BOGDANOVIC, Sierra Club 272

12 MICHAEL HORNSBY, Resident of New Jersey 276

13 BERNADETTE LEMASTERS, Graduate Student, 277

14 George Mason University

15 NATALIE PIEN, Resident of Leesburg, Virginia 282

16 ANDREA MCGIMSEY, Climate Reality Project 289

17 KENNETH WARD, Resident Corbett, Oregon 293

18 RACHEL ROGIER, Arch Coal 299

19 SENATOR JOE MANCHIN 306

20 TOM BURACK, New Hampshire Department of 315

21 Environmental Services

22 CRAIG SEGALL, California Air Resources Board 321

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 LUCAS NIEWENHUIS 327

4 ERICA MITRANO, Student in Arlington, VA 331

5 BRYAN BANKS, American Lung Association 333

6 BRENNA MULLER, United States Citizen 337

7 EMILY LANDE, National Wildlife Federation 343

8 JIM DOUGHERTY, Resident of Washington 348

9 NIASIA ELLIS, Student, Open High School, 354

10 Richmond Virginia

11 SANAA SLEDGE, Student, Baker Elementary, 357

12 Richmond, Virginia 

13 MOLLY SIMON, National Wildlife Federation 359

14 PHILO COLLINS, Resident of Washington, D.C. 371

15 JEFF SAXE, Rabi, Temple Rode of Shalom 376

16 BRAD BICKFORD, Resident of Washington, D.C. 380

17 DEREK MEYER, Resident of Alexandria, Virginia 384

18 JOSE DEARTEAGA, Resident of Washington, D.C. 388

19 ELIZABETH MONSEU, American Coal Council 395

20 LAURA KATE BENDER, American Lung Association 400

21

22

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MS. DUNHAM: All right. Good morning. 

3 I think we're going to get started here, try to 

4 start relatively on time. 

5 All right. My name is Sarah Dunham, and 

6 I am one of the chairs of today's public hearing. 

7 Thank you all for coming today.

8 Joining me on the panel this morning are 

9 Amy Vasu to my right, and Erich Eschman to my 

10 left. We're here today to listen to your 

11 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

12 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

13 of these proposed rules on June 2nd, 2014.

14 Power plants are the largest source of 

15 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

16 roughly one third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

17 emissions. The first rule is the EPA's proposed 

18 clean power plan for existing power plants. This 

19 proposal consists of two main parts; state20 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

21 power plants, and guidelines to help states 

22 develop their plans for meeting the goals. 

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1 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

2 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

3 choose what goes into their plans that show how 

4 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

5 their goals by 2030.

6 The second rule is the EPA's proposed 

7 rule to address carbon dioxide emissions from 

8 modified and reconstructed power plants. This 

9 rule would set the mission's limits for two 

10 groups of power plants; those that make physical 

11 or operational changes that increase the plant's 

12 maximum achievable hourly rate of emissions, and 

13 those that replace components to such an extent 

14 that the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

15 capital cost of an entirely new comparable 

16 facility.

17 If you would like more details on either 

18 of these proposed rules there are fact sheets 

19 available near the registration desk. 

20 Today's hearing is one of four public 

21 hearings across the country this week on the two 

22 proposed rules. We've had tremendous interest in 

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1 each of the hearings and I'd like to thank you 

2 for taking the time out of your day today to join 

3 us and share your comments.

4 We have a lot of people signed up to 

5 speak today and we want to hear from all of them. 

6 So before we get started I'd like to go through a 

7 few housekeeping items and ground rules that will 

8 help make today's hearing run smoothly.

9 First, please be sure you have checked in 

10 at the registration desk, even if you are not 

11 planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 

12 speak online or by phone but haven't told us that 

13 you're here, please step up to the registration 

14 desk and let the EPA staff know that you've 

15 arrived.

16 Second, if you are a speaker you were 

17 given a room letter when you checked in; Room A 

18 or Room B. This is Room A. Hopefully you're in 

19 the right room, and if not, this is a good time 

20 to switch.

21 All right. Here's how today's hearing 

22 will work. I will call speakers up in pairs. 

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1 When your name is called please come to the table 

2 at the front of the room. When I call on you to 

3 speak please state your name and spell it for the 

4 court reporter. Your comments will be 

5 transcribed and included in the record of 

6 comments on the proposed rule.

7 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

8 give comments. We have a light to help you know 

9 how much time you have left to speak. When the 

10 light turns from green to yellow that means you 

11 have one minute remaining. And when it turns red

12 that's a signal to wrap up your testimony. The 

13 light will flash red and beep when you have 

14 spoken for five minutes and it is time to stop.

15 When you are finished speaking please 

16 remain at the table until the person next to you 

17 has completed his or her testimony. We are here 

18 to listen to you today, however a panel member 

19 may ask you questions to clarify your comments. I 

20 will then call up the next pair of speakers and 

21 so on.

22 If you have brought a written copy of 

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1 your testimony please give that to the staff at 

2 the registration desk before you leave today.

3 Because of the large number of people who 

4 have signed up to speak today and to be fair to 

5 everyone we are going to have to strictly enforce 

6 the five minute limit. If you have additional 

7 comments you would like to make you can submit 

8 them in writing.

9 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

10 much consideration to comments we receive in 

11 writing as we do to comments we receive at public 

12 hearings like this one. So if you have more that 

13 you would like to say, please submit it. Your 

14 comments will be reviewed.

15 There's still plenty of time to get 

16 written comments in and there are comment cards 

17 available at the registration desk. Comments 

18 must be received by October 16th, 2014. We will 

19 put any written comments submitted today on the 

20 official docket for the proposed rule. 

21 Instructions for submitting written 

22 comments in other ways are available at the 

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1 materials table near the registration desk.

2 We're scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 

3 tonight and we'll take a lunch and dinner break 

4 so everyone can get something to eat. Right now 

5 the lunch break is scheduled for noon and the 

6 dinner break is scheduled for 5:00. 

7 In addition we may take occasional short 

8 breaks throughout the day as needed. We'll keep 

9 you posted as the day goes on. If you have any 

10 questions during the day, please see the staff at 

11 the registration desk and someone will try to 

12 help you.

13 Finally, I want to ask each of you to 

14 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

15 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

16 views in the audience and we want to hear from 

17 all of you. So we can do that and to be fair to 

18 everyone we ask that everyone listen quietly. 

19 Even applause can slow things down and we want to 

20 hear from everyone who has signed up to speak.

21 Thank you again for taking the time today 

22 to share your comments on EPA's proposed rules. 

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1 Now, let's get started.

2 So our first two speakers will be Lee 

3 Larson and Karen Harbert. If you could please 

4 come up to the front table. We'll start with Mr. 

5 Larson. Thank you very much.

6 MR. LARSON: Great. Thanks so much. 

7 Good morning. My name is Lee Larson, it's L-E-E 

8 L-A-R-S-O-N. And first of all I'd like to thank 

9 you all for giving me the opportunity to come 

10 here and give comments.

11 I'm here today to talk about how global 

12 warming has impacted my life and why limiting 

13 greenhouse gasses is a necessary step in 

14 protecting the health and well-being of this 

15 nation in the future.

16 So just last week the City Council of 

17 South Portland in my home state of Maine, banned 

18 the exportation of Canadian tar sands oil from a 

19 waterfront terminal.

20 I spent the last three summers working on 

21 that same waterfront, teaching kids the basic 

22 concepts of marine biology and the importance of 

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1 ecological conservation. Exporting tar sands oil 

2 from Portland would have required the 

3 construction of two 70 foot tall smokestacks 

4 adjacent to the summer camp where I worked, and 

5 practically on the campus of Southern Maine 

6 Community College.

7 Maine residents don't need these threats 

8 to the quality of our air, and our fragile 

9 coastline can do without the risk of pollution in 

10 the future. Widespread resistance to this 

11 project in Maine illustrates the public 

12 opposition to air pollution and indicates that we 

13 are ready to clean up dirty power plants as well.

14 Americans around the country are 

15 recognizing the dangers that greenhouse gasses 

16 pose to our environment, economy, and quality of 

17 life, setting targets for the limitation of 

18 carbon emission shows a strong commitment to 

19 solving the problems of climate change. It also

20 addresses the many public health problems that 

21 air pollution causes from dangerously hot summers 

22 to respiratory illnesses in children. My 

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1 brother, Will, has asthma, just for one example.

2 And I've also experienced the negative 

3 effects of a fossil fuel based utilities 

4 industry. I go to college in North Carolina and 

5 a popular weekend activity for students is tubing 

6 down the Dan River. 

7 Last February, as I'm sure you know, Duke 

8 Energy spilled millions of gallons of coal ash 

9 sludge into the river. Coal ash is the 

10 detritions that remains after burning coal to 

11 produce electricity. And it contains numerous 

12 toxic substances such as arsenic, mercury, and 

13 lead. The river is still not safe to fish or 

14 swim in, and Duke Energy has only removed about 

15 2,500 of the 39,000 tons of coal ash that 

16 contaminated the waterway. Drinking supplies 

17 were threatened and the impact on wildlife is 

18 still being assessed. 

19 This spill, and others like it, emphasize 

20 the wide array of threats that greenhouse gas 

21 emitters pose to our health. 

22 These two stories show why I support the 

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1 EPA finalizing its Clean Power Plan. Power 

2 plants are the number one source of carbon 

3 dioxide that causes global warming. 

4 In Maine, they're responsible for as much 

5 pollution as half a million cars, and they

6 produce 40 percent of U.S. greenhouse gas 

7 emissions overall. Maine, along with eight other 

8 Northeastern states has already begun to address 

9 this problem with the nation's First Cap and 

10 Trade Program for limiting emissions and 

11 investing in renewable energy. 

12 And since 2007, the Regional Greenhouse 

13 Gas Initiative has reinvested $27 million into 

14 energy efficiency programs while saving Maine 

15 consumers $120 million and creating hundreds of 

16 jobs. So for those who say that this rule harm 

17 the economy and hurt jobs, I'd like to point to 

18 that example, you know, as something that negates 

19 that. 

20 It's time to ensure that all of America 

21 can enjoy these similar benefits. The Clean 

22 Power Plan is a great first step in reducing our 

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1 reliance on outdated, dangerous, and dirty fossil 

2 fuels. 

3 Renewable methods of producing energy are 

4 becoming more viable as the technology develops. 

5 For instance, wind power already produces enough 

6 electricity to power 15 million homes. And last 

7 year a building went solar every four minutes.

8 Developing federal standards for limiting 

9 carbon pollution will help to protect America 

10 from the most dangerous impacts of climate change 

11 in the future, like sea level rise, heat waves, 

12 extreme drought, storms, wildfires like we're 

13 seeing out west right now. It will also help 

14 reduce pollution and make our cities cleaner and 

15 our lives healthier.

16 This plan demonstrates America's 

17 willingness to fight climate change and sends a 

18 strong message to the rest of the world that we 

19 are ready to lead on this issue. I'd like to 

20 urge the EPA to finalize its Clean Power Plan and 

21 start this nation on the road to a brighter and 

22 more sustainable future.

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1 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. 

2 MS. HARBERT: Do you have to reset the 

3 clock or no? I'll take the extra time. That's 

4 okay.

5 Thank you. I'm Karen Harbert, K-A-R-E-N 

6 H-A-R-B-E-R-T, President and CEO at the institute 

7 for 21st Century Energy at the U.S. Chamber of 

8 Commerce, the world's largest business federation 

9 representing over 3 million businesses. 

10 The Chamber has long been clear in its 

11 view that the Clean Air Act is not the 

12 appropriate vehicle to regulate greenhouse gasses 

13 and is poorly designed for such a task. We 

14 believe EPA's proposed rule is fundamentally 

15 inconsistent with numerous practical, technical, 

16 and legal aspects of America's electrical system.

17 It is clear that this rule will require a 

18 significant redesign and transformation of 

19 America's entire electricity system, including 

20 generation, transmission, distribution, and use. 

21 While a comprehensive study of the 

22 electric sector and broader economic impacts of 

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1 this rule is necessary, it is clear it will 

2 impact every American family and business. And I 

3 want to highlight some of our concerns.

4 EPA's proposal will have clear 

5 implications to the American jobs and economy. 

6 EPA itself estimates that its rule will increase 

7 electricity prices between six and seven percent 

8 nationally by 2020, and up to 12 percent in some 

9 locations. This is on top of the 13 percent 

10 increase already forecast by EAA over the same 

11 time period.

12 EPA also estimates that compliance costs 

13 will be between $5.4 and $7.4 billion in 2020, 

14 rising to $8.8 billion by 2030. 

15 It is important to note that these 

16 compliance costs are for the power sector only 

17 and do not capture the spill-over effects on the 

18 rest of the economy. Even if these cost 

19 estimates were accurate, these increases will 

20 place an immense burden on U.S. businesses and 

21 could eliminate the comparative competitive 

22 advantage we are enjoying by affordable 

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1 electricity prices. In fact the United Mine 

2 Workers have estimated that 187 indirect and 

3 direct jobs will be lost in the utility, rail, 

4 and coal industry, and labor income will be lost 

5 of $208 billion by 2035.

6 On flexibility EPA has emphasized that 

7 this the cornerstone of its proposal. But the 

8 building blocks that comprise this foundation 

9 actually increase the stringency rather than 

10 assist states with compliance efforts. 

11 Specifically by incorporating reduction 

12 measures beyond the effective sources, EPA was 

13 able to tighten stat targets substantially. If 

14 the emission reductions called for from one 

15 building block are not met, they must be made up 

16 for with even greater reductions in another 

17 building block. 

18 Because the targets were set at 

19 aggressive levels, there is little wiggle room

20 for these options. And as a result, unless EPA 

21 incorporates true flexibility into the rule we 

22 expect states to encounter major compliance 

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1 challenges.

2 Perhaps most troubling, the Agency's 

3 emissions limitations on individual states vary 

4 widely and are based on complex and detailed 

5 assumptions that may not reflect reality, what is 

6 achievable, or even what is within EPA's 

7 authority to regulate.

8 In order for this to be fully evaluated, 

9 EPA must better explain and disclose the 

10 underlying assumptions and data that serve as the 

11 foundation for these binding targets. EPA has 

12 failed to date to address these issues, provided 

13 little to no information regarding what authority 

14 it was relying upon to institute such outside the 

15 fence expansive regulatory targets, nor how it 

16 intends to proceed if it does not approve of 

17 individual state implementation plans.

18 As stakeholders continue to evaluate the 

19 1,600 pages of regulatory text, EPA should hold 

20 additional public hearings to enable a greater 

21 number of citizens representing a broader range 

22 of viewpoints and geographical locations to 

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1 provide input.

2 Perhaps most importantly we ask that at 

3 least some component of these public meetings be 

4 interactive so that stakeholders can ask EPA 

5 questions and get answers regarding the rule.

6 And finally we ask EPA to extend the 120 

7 day comment period by at least 60 days to ensure 

8 that we have sufficient time to assess this 

9 complex rule, and also consider the feedback 

10 provided at these public hearings.

11 Beyond our technical concerns, beyond 

12 electricity rate impacts, were liability concerns 

13 and state disparities, EPA's proposal suffers one 

14 overarching and inescapable flaw, it's failure to 

15 meaningfully address its expressed purpose for 

16 being, reductions in Co2 emissions. 

17 The EPA estimates that in 2030 its 

18 proposed rule would reduce Co2 emissions 555 

19 metric tons below current projects, which 

20 represents a 1.3 reduction in global emissions in 

21 2030. Because non US Co2 emissions are expected 

22 to grow by 41 percent, EPA's proposed rule will 

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1 offset the equivalent of 13.5 days of Chinese 

2 emissions in 2030. 

3 Senior Administration officials have 

4 publically emphasized that absent similar actions 

5 by other major economies; U.S. regulations to 

6 reduce carbon emissions will not succeed, and in 

7 fact would simply result in moving emissions to 

8 other countries that have not implemented similar 

9 restrictions.

10 So in sum, EPA must provide more time, 

11 more opportunity for input, more transparency, 

12 and a fair process. Thank you.

13 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Thank 

14 you to our first speakers. I would call our next 

15 two speakers, Howard Feldman and august Wilson to 

16 the table up here, please. And just a brief 

17 reminder, when you start your remarks if you 

18 could state your name and spell it for the court 

19 reporter. 

20 Mr. Feldman.

21 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Good morning. My 

22 name is Howard J. Feldman, and I'm speaking today 

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1 on behalf of the American Petroleum Institute. 

2 API represents over 600 oil and gas 

3 natural -- oil and natural gas companies, leaders 

4 of a technology driven industry that supplies 

5 most of America's energy, supports more than 9.8 

6 million jobs and 8 percent of the U.S. economy.

7 And since 2000 has invested nearly $2 

8 trillion in U.S. capital projects to advance all 

9 forms of energy, including alternatives. 

10 Our members recognize the responsibility 

11 to work with the public, the government, and 

12 others to developing and using natural resources 

13 and an environmentally sound manner while 

14 protecting the health and safety of our employees 

15 and the public.

16 Many of our members will be directly 

17 impacted by these proposed new source performance

18 standards. I have three key points I'd like to 

19 make today. 

20 One, our industry is doing its part to 

21 contribute to the reduction in carbon dioxide 

22 emissions through the increased production of 

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1 clean natural gas.

2 Two, this rule is problematic. It 

3 threatens our industry's international 

4 competitiveness due to higher energy costs.

5 Three, we have specific concerns with the 

6 proposal and the precedence it sets. Among our 

7 concerns is EPA's approach to base the state's 

8 target reductions on the use of outside the fence 

9 reductions and the possible imposition of 

10 reduction requirements on non EGU facilities.

11 Furthermore the rulemaking and the 

12 related 111B rulemaking need to be modified to 

13 avoid adversely impacting the use of co14 generation and industrial facilities.

15 Going to my first point, as you are 

16 probably aware, America's energy revolution has 

17 changed the global landscape thanks to 

18 innovations in the oil and gas industry, 

19 particularly hydraulic fracturing and horizontal 

20 drilling, America is now the number one producer 

21 of natural gas in the world, and is on course to 

22 become the number one producer of oil as well. 

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1 Market driven forces are helping us to 

2 use these fuels efficiently. And with the growth 

3 of natural gas U.S. carbon dioxide emissions are 

4 now near 20 year lows without job-destroying 

5 regulations. 

6 But America's success as an energy 

7 superpower depends on an all of the above energy 

8 strategy where new rules are designed to 

9 compliment, not strangle the renaissance America 

10 is experiencing thanks to new energy production.

11 My second point, this rulemaking is 

12 problematic. Unfortunately the proposed EPA rule 

13 ignores the successful example of our free market 

14 and guarantees adverse consequences for nearly 

15 every consumer and business in the U.S. 

16 American refineries, for example, have 

17 been a tremendous bright spot in the U.S. 

18 economy, but energy is the second largest cost 

19 associated with operating a competitive refinery. 

20 Given the potential impact of the rule on 

21 electricity prices businesses like these will 

22 have no choice but to reevaluate new investments 

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1 based on electricity sources that are less 

2 affordable and less secure.

3 The uncertainty caused by this rule could 

4 have a chilling effect on investments throughout 

5 the manufacturing section, potentially costing 

6 millions of jobs and damaging all aspects of our 

7 economy. Moreover, by eliminating diversity in 

8 our fuel choices this creates the potential for a 

9 future electricity shortages and price spikes 

10 that would do the greatest harm to those who can 

11 least afford it, hardworking American consumers.

12 My third point; we have specific concerns 

13 regarding the proposal and the precedence it 

14 sets. EPA's proposed approach to set state15 specific emissions reductions goals, based on an 

16 analysis that takes into account emissions 

17 reductions that occur outside the fence line of 

18 the fossil fuel EGU that is subject to proposed 

19 regulation.

20 EPA's reliance on these outside the fence 

21 line options dramatically expands the scope of 

22 the best system of emission reductions, beyond 

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1 the fossil fuel EGUs subject to regulation, and 

2 exceeds the scope of EPA's authority under the 

3 Clean Air Act. 

4 Furthermore we think that the final rule 

5 should indicate, explicitly, that EPA and states 

6 do not have the legal authority to require 

7 emissions reductions outside the EGU sector. 

8 Furthermore, the intent of the rule is to 

9 target the power sector, not to bring in 

10 unintended industries. The final rule should be 

11 crafted to clearly and transparently articulate 

12 the sector targeted and should exempt industrial 

13 co-generation. Combined heat and power 

14 facilities capture and utilize heat that would 

15 otherwise be wasted from the production of 

16 electricity. Therefore they require less fuel 

17 than an equivalent separate heat and power 

18 systems to produce the same amount of 

19 electricity. By using less fuel CHPs reduce 

20 emissions of air pollutants and emit 

21 significantly less Co2 emissions than 

22 conventional boilers. 

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1 The 111B Rule needs to be finalized to 

2 avoid bringing these industrial combined heat and 

3 power facilities under that rule and this 111D 

4 rulemaking needs to reflect that as well.

5 In closing API appreciates the 

6 opportunity to provide this testimony on this 

7 important rulemaking for our industry. We will 

8 be submitting detailed comments to the docket to 

9 amplify on these points and a host of other 

10 issues raised in the proposed rulemaking. Thank 

11 you.

12 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you. Ms. Wilson.

13 MR. WILSON: Good morning. Thank you. 

14 My name is Augusta Wilson. It's A-G-U-S-T-A, 

15 last name is W-I-L-S-O-N, and I am a staff 

16 attorney at the Clean Air Council.

17 The Council is a nonprofit organization 

18 headquartered in Philadelphia that has been 

19 working since 1967 to carry out our mission of 

20 protecting everyone's right to breath clean air. 

21 And I thank you for the opportunity to speak with 

22 you today.

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1 The Council applauds EPA for its issuance 

2 of its performance standards for existing sources 

3 of carbon pollution. As it prepares to finalize 

4 the rule the Council urges EPA to consider the 

5 following.

6 The proposed rule allows states a 

7 significant amount of flexibility in how they go 

8 about achieving their required reductions. While 

9 this flexibility is necessary for effective and 

10 efficient implementation of the ruling each sate, 

11 it has the potential negative side effect of 

12 allowing some states to take the easy way out. 

13 For example, Pennsylvania, where we're 

14 headquartered, has already seen reductions in 

15 carbon emissions over the past several years as a 

16 result of significant development of the state's 

17 shale gas resources. This is because the 

18 combustion of natural gas, which is mostly 

19 methane, produces less carbon dioxide than does 

20 the combustion of coal, and Pennsylvania's energy 

21 sector has experienced a significant shift from 

22 coal to natural gas since the extraction of 

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1 Marcellus shale gas began in earnest.

2 Natural gas, however is also a fossil 

3 fuel and presents the problem of substantial 

4 fugitive methane emissions throughout its life 

5 cycle. Methane itself is a highly potent 

6 greenhouse gas, often estimated to be more than 

7 30 times more potent than carbon dioxide over a 

8 100 year timeframe, and close to 100 times more 

9 potent over a 20 year timeframe. 

10 Thus a clean energy plan, by under which 

11 states meet their carbon reduction requirements 

12 simply by switching wholesale to natural gas will 

13 not represent true progress in the fight against 

14 global warming. Rather we must make substantial 

15 investments in energy efficiency measures and 

16 renewable energy resources and reduce all our 

17 fossil fuel use.

18 The potential for energy efficiency to 

19 reduce energy demand and avoid carbon dioxide 

20 emission as well as methane emissions is now well 

21 established. For example a 2010 report by the 

22 National Academy of Scientists found that at 25 

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1 to 30 percent energy savings for the building 

2 sector as a whole could be achieved over the next 

3 20 to 25 years through energy efficiency measures 

4 alone at a cost of just 2.7 cents per kilowatt 

5 hours saved. The whole building retrofits and 

6 advanced building design could result in even 

7 more significant energy savings.

8 Environmental advocates, including the 

9 Clean Air Council, where I work, will push to 

10 ensure that the implementation plan that 

11 Pennsylvania submits to EPA ultimately will allow 

12 for and incentivize energy efficiency measures 

13 and renewable energy sources as a substantial 

14 part of the means by which Pennsylvania will meet 

15 its carbon reduction requirements.

16 One of the challenges in such an effort, 

17 however, is the difficulty of adequately and 

18 accurately quantifying reductions in carbon 

19 emissions achieved by energy efficiency measures 

20 and renewables. 

21 EPA could aid these efforts by including 

22 in the final rule, standards and methods that 

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1 states can use to measure and verify energy 

2 savings and emission reductions achieved through 

3 such means.

4 The groundwork has already been laid. 

5 Over recent decades at least 14 states have 

6 developed protocols for quantifying such energy 

7 savings. However, these practices continue to 

8 vary widely from state to state, and among 

9 utilities. 

10 Clear guidelines from EPA setting out 

11 best practices and standardized protocols for 

12 such accounting could make it much easier for 

13 states to include energy efficiency programs and 

14 renewable energy sources in their implementation

15 plans. 

16 If the final rule does not ultimately 

17 contain such a framework the Council would urge 

18 EPA at a minimum to closely review each state's 

19 proposed implementation plan to ensure that it 

20 does contain a clear and justifiable mechanism 

21 for adequately accounting for energy savings from 

22 energy efficiency measures and use of renewable 

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1 energy resources.

2 Climate change caused by carbon pollution 

3 is an extremely pressing threat to human health. 

4 The Clean Air Council applauds EPA's efforts to 

5 develop a strong rule under Section 111D of the 

6 Clean Air Act to regulate carbon emissions from 

7 such facilities and urges EPA to maintain and 

8 increase the strength of its rule as it is 

9 finalized.

10 Thank you very much.

11 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Thank 

12 you. Our next two speakers will be Michalene 

13 Reilly and Christopher Vandeventer. If you could 

14 come up to the speaker's table, please? 

15 Thank you very much. Ms. Reilly you can 

16 go first.

17 MS. REILLY: Okay. My name is Michalene 

18 Reilly, Manager of Environmental Services for 

19 Hoosier Energy Rural Electric Cooperative, a 

20 generation in transmission cooperative with 

21 members in 59 counties in Central and Southern 

22 Indiana and Southeastern Illinois. 

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1 Being a member-driven cooperative our

2 mission is to provide reliable low-cost power in 

3 a safe and environmentally acceptable manner. We

4 appreciate this opportunity to provide comments 

5 on the proposed rule to regulate greenhouse 

6 gasses from existing power plants. 

7 Hoosier Energy is concerned with many 

8 aspects of the rule. Today I will cover just one 

9 of those concerns, the four building blocks. 

10 More extensive comments will be filed at the end 

11 of the comment period.

12 Power plant energy efficiency. EPA's 

13 contention that power plants have the ability to 

14 decrease their heat rate and therefore improve 

15 plant efficiency by 6 percent is a concern. In 

16 talking to many utilities about this issue we 

17 have not heard of a single plant that could 

18 achieve anything more than one to two percent, 

19 and at a tremendous cost. 

20 The efficiency increase that are cost21 effective have already been made. It should be 

22 noted that a plant such as Hoosier Energy's Merom 

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1 generating station, approximately 56 percent of 

2 the power that is auxiliary power, is used for 

3 pollution control equipment. 

4 Natural gas combined cycle facilities. 

5 As you may -- as many utilities, Hoosier Energy 

6 has found natural gas unavailable in times of 

7 extreme weather and under other conditions. This 

8 has happened both at combined cycle and peaking 

9 facilities. Unfortunately setting a goal does 

10 not diminish the issue of inadequate pipelines 

11 and storage facilities. Electric utilities like 

12 Hoosier Energy have no control over the lack of 

13 natural gas infrastructure. 

14 EPA must examine these constraints and 

15 adjust the goal for states that cannot be assured 

16 gas availability. Many combined cycle facilities 

17 were not built to run at such a high capacity 

18 factor. The constraints of those units

19 themselves must be considered.

20 Renewable energy. Hoosier Energy is 

21 concerned with statements made by many top 

22 personnel from EPA that this rule is meant to be 

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1 flexible, yet each speech seems to narrow the 

2 interpretation of what is included in the 

3 building blocks. 

4 EPA should be promoting every possible 

5 way of allowing for greenhouse gas emissions and 

6 offsets should be included. The renewables 

7 portion should include all types of new 

8 renewables including small hydro, landfill, and 

9 coal bed methane, as well as allowing for 

10 offsets.

11 It has been proven that offsets such as 

12 increased forestry can utilize some of the Co2 

13 being generated, allowing for power plants to 

14 continue to operate for the remainder of their 

15 useful life. 

16 Demand side management and energy 

17 efficiency. One way to reduce greenhouse gas 

18 emissions is to not to generate them. However, 

19 demand side management and energy efficiency take 

20 agreements on both sides of the equation; both 

21 the utility and the consumer. 

22 Hoosier offers many incentives, both for 

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1 demand side management and energy efficiency 

2 without any mandate from the State of Indiana. 

3 However, even with subsidies and incentives you 

4 cannot force homeowners to take advantage of 

5 these offers and raising power prices so high 

6 that people would be forced into it is not 

7 equitable for low income rural communities, or 

8 for the commercial and industrial consumers 

9 served by our members.

10 In a not for profit cooperative the cost 

11 of every incentive is spread across all the 

12 member consumers. EPA must look for other 

13 incentives that can work for low income retail 

14 consumers and not unfairly punish others. 

15 We would request that EPA work with us to 

16 develop cost-effective ways to reduce carbon 

17 without causing significant economic harm to our 

18 rural communities. We look forward to working 

19 with you.

20 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Mr. 

21 Vandeventer.

22 MR. VANDEVENTER: Good morning. My name 

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1 is Chris Vandeventer. I am a legislative 

2 representative from Basin Electric Power 

3 Cooperative based in Bismarck, North Dakota. We 

4 serve more than 2.9 million consumers through 136 

5 member cooperatives across nine different states. 

6 We have a diverse energy portfolio, 

7 including coal, wind, nuclear, gas, and hydro. 

8 More than a decade ago we were the first utility 

9 to build commercial scale wind farms in the 

10 Dakotas. Commitment to the environment was one 

11 of our founding principles more than 50 years 

12 ago. We provide Co2 to the largest sequestration

13 project in the western hemisphere, and we have

14 spent more than $10 million investigating carbon 

15 capture at our existing fleet, and possibly new 

16 fleets. But at the end the technology just was 

17 not right and we did not feel it was justified to 

18 the cost of our membership or to the tax payers.

19 Roughly 77 percent of our energy comes 

20 from coal. The Clean Power Plan, as proposed, 

21 could have serious impacts on the affordability 

22 and reliability of that electricity for our 

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1 member systems.

2 In 2013 we recommended several areas we 

3 wanted EPA to focus on in developing this rule. 

4 You responded to some but left others on the 

5 table. As you listen to the comments today and 

6 the written comments provided later, we urge you 

7 to keep all options open.

8 We do appreciate EPA's willingness to 

9 consider a flexible approach to compliance. 

10 Unfortunately the Clean Power Plan has raised 

11 more questions than it provides answers, given 

12 the ambiguity and apparent contradictions in the 

13 draft rule we request that you extent the comment 

14 period by an additional 60 days. 

15 With that, we do have initial comments. 

16 Regional plans. As a multi-state utility that 

17 crosses several state borders, we support 

18 regional approach. But what works for one state 

19 may not work for another. Therefore states 

20 should have the flexibility and options to 

21 develop utility specific compliance plans without 

22 the need to join multi state plans.

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1 On heat rate. We designed and built our 

2 power plants to operate at the maximum 

3 efficiency. There may be opportunities for 

4 additional generating efficiency improvements 

5 more economical, but current new source review 

6 rules generally do not allow projects that result 

7 in higher levels of efficiency. EPA should 

8 ensure that energy efficiency improvements 

9 pursued by utilities under this rule and approved 

10 by a state plan should not trigger new source 

11 review.

12 On early action we believe any project 

13 that reduces atmospheric Co2 emissions should be 

14 allowed for compliance, as long as those 

15 reductions are verifiable and measurable. 

16 Through our subsidiary, DGC, the Great 

17 Plaines Synfuels Plant, has captured and 

18 delivered more than 28 million tons of carbon 

19 dioxide for sequestration in the oil fields of 

20 Saskatchewan. 

21 As administrator McCarthy said when she 

22 visited this facility in March, quote, "This 

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1 facility is about the innovation in the United 

2 States. This facility is about what we can do 

3 when we work together." End quote.

4 EPA should permit states to include 

5 innovation like this in their plans. 

6 Redispatch of natural gas. A 70 percent 

7 capacity factor for combined cycle plants might 

8 technically be possible, but permitting 

9 transmission, straights, higher maintenance costs 

10 and energy demands all affect a plant's ability 

11 to run. Your own analysis indicates that natural 

12 gas combined cycle plants will run on average 

13 just 56 percent of the time in real practice. 

14 EPA needs to recalculate the state targets to 

15 assume a more realistic capacity.

16 Unrenewables. What happens with 

17 renewable energy credits, or so-called green 

18 tags? Do they stay with the generating state, or 

19 do the follow the load to the state in which the 

20 electricity is consumed. The rule appears to 

21 leave this matter up to the states. 

22 By 2016 we will have more than 1,000 

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1 megawatts of wind on our energy system. The 

2 uncertainty of counting the green tags will 

3 certainly impact our ability to comply with the 

4 rule in our service area. 

5 Finally we have specific concerns about 

6 how EPA counted Basin Electric's combined cycle 

7 generation in South Dakota. Our Deer Creek 

8 station was under construction for the majority 

9 of 2012 and went in operation late in the year. 

10 It ran just 90 hours. Yet EPA assumed this plant 

11 had a one percent capacity factor for the entire 

12 year. This is highly inaccurate and unfairly 

13 penalizes the State of South Dakota in 

14 determining that state's emissions target. 

15 EPA needs to correct South Dakota's 

16 target to reflect that Deer Creek was under 

17 construction during 2012. 

18 We appreciate this hearing and thank you 

19 for your time today. We will be submitting 

20 written comments at a later date and look forward 

21 to answering any questions that may come up.

22 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Thank 

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1 you. Okay. I'd like to ask, please for the next 

2 two speakers, Senator Cardin as well as Liz 

3 Perera to come to the table. 

4 Senator Cardin, you (inaudible)**35:12.

5 MR. CARDIN: Oh, first. Thank you very 

6 much for this opportunity to testify before the 

7 EPA. I thank you for not only complying with the 

8 law in regards to this hearing, but the spirit of 

9 openness and transparency that has been what you 

10 have done presenting this rule for public 

11 comment.

12 My support, I strongly support the action 

13 of the EPA in moving forward with your rule 

14 governing carbon emissions and power facilities. 

15 I think it's a very positive step forward and I 

16 want to make that clear.

17 The inaction is very costly to our 

18 planet. I could relate with you the experience 

19 that I had last year being in Beijing, and being 

20 there for several days, never seeing the sun even 

21 though there was not a cloud in the sky. The 

22 cost of inaction is great.

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1 The Council of Economic Advisors just 

2 released a report showing what the cost of an 

3 action would be to the economy. And I think 

4 that's clear. 

5 But let me talk as the Senator from 

6 Maryland as to the impact it has on the people I 

7 represent in the State of Maryland.

8 Seventy percent of our population live in 

9 coastal areas. They're at great risk. Property 

10 owners are at risk of losing their properties as 

11 they literally are being washed away by rising 

12 sea levels. Our unique way of life where the 

13 coastal areas is so iconic to the life in 

14 Maryland is at risk as a result of climate 

15 change. 

16 From the poultry industry that relies 

17 upon corn as its stock, one of the highest cost 

18 parts of the production of poultry is at risk 

19 because of the draught and the shortage of the 

20 corn crop. 

21 Waterman, who for centuries have 

22 harvested on the Chesapeake Bay are finding that 

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1 the Blue Crab is in danger because of warmer 

2 waters and loss of sea grasses that protect 

3 juvenile crabs. Warmer waters are making it much 

4 more challenging for all of the harvests from the 

5 Chesapeake Bay.

6 One of our largest economic engines is 

7 the Port of Baltimore. Its efficiency is very 

8 much threatened by rising sea levels as to the 

9 efficiency of the operations of the Port of 

10 Baltimore. And I could go on and list many many 

11 other of the important economic engines in 

12 Maryland that are jeopardized. 

13 But let me just conclude on the security 

14 front, Maryland is home to major military 

15 installations that are on our coast, from the 

16 Aberdeen Proving Grounds to Pax River, to the 

17 Naval Academy. All being challenged because of 

18 the impact of climate change and carbon 

19 emissions.

20 And the science here is very clear. It's 

21 beyond dispute that our activities here in our 

22 community is affecting carbon -- by carbon 

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1 emissions is affecting our climate and our power 

2 plants are a major source of that problem. So 

3 your rule very much helps us in dealing with the 

4 economic, social, and way of life issues of my 

5 state and our community, and indeed our country 

6 and the international community.

7 Congress should have acted. Congress 

8 could have acted and used a market-based approach 

9 that would have helped. It would have been more 

10 flexible in the regards that we could have 

11 developed other tools and we could have given 

12 clearer direction. We should have acted. We 

13 tried. I supported congressional action. Bill 

14 passed the United States House of 

15 Representatives. We had the majority of the 

16 members of the United States Senate that were 

17 prepared to support that. But a filibuster 

18 prevented final action in the United States 

19 Congress.

20 EPA has the responsibility and the legal 

21 authority to act. Three Supreme Court cases have 

22 made that very clear. So I thank you for 

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1 bringing forward this proposal. It gives the 

2 flexible standards so our states are in control, 

3 it allows for regional approaches, which I think 

4 are very important. Maryland Energy companies 

5 have acted and have done so in a way that has 

6 been cost effective and have created jobs.

7 So it shouldn't take a Cuyahoga River to 

8 catch fire as it did for us to move forward on 

9 the Clean Water Act or toxic air to be breathed 

10 by the citizens of Las Angeles before we pass the 

11 Clean Air Act. I hope it doesn't take the loss

12 of Smith Island, the last habitable island in 

13 Maryland's Chesapeake Bay, or the Everglades to 

14 be washed away. Or for the dustbowl to be the 

15 norm in our bread belt in this country before we 

16 act on dealing with carbon emissions in our power 

17 plants. 

18 I thank you for moving forward and you

19 have the strong support of the senate.

20 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Ms. 

21 Perera.

22 MS. PERERA: Good morning. My name is 

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1 Liz Perera and it's a pleasure to be testifying 

2 alongside my senator, actually, from the State of 

3 Maryland. And this is my daughter, Leah Perera. 

4 We're residents of Bethesda. So I'm also the 

5 senior Washington representative on climate 

6 change for the Sierra Club. And I'm also a 

7 volunteer chair for the American Public Health 

8 Association's Climate and Health Topic Committee.

9 I want to speak with you today about why 

10 Sierra Club and our 2.4 million members support 

11 the Environmental Protection Agency's first ever 

12 Carbon Pollution Standards for Power Plants. And 

13 we will work to strengthen these standards in the 

14 Clean Power Plan.

15 But first I'm going to take this 

16 opportunity to tell you why I personally care 

17 deeply about these carbon pollution standards, 

18 and why I've brought my daughter Leah here with 

19 me today.

20 First, I'm the mother of two beautiful 

21 children, Leah who is five, and Aiden who is 

22 three. And Leah will be 22 years old, in the 

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1 prime of her life in 2030 when this standard 

2 seeks to reduce emissions by 30 percent. And in 

3 2050, when she'll be 42, in our home state of 

4 Maryland, there are projections showing a 

5 possible two feet of sea level rise, and these 

6 projections rise to six feet by 2100.

7 The National Mall and this very building 

8 could be under water under these scenarios. And 

9 the islands we love so much on the Chesapeake

10 Bay, like Smith Island, will potentially be gone 

11 long before 2050.

12 Crisfield Maryland, home of our beloved 

13 Crisfield Crab, is portrayed in Noah's 

14 interactive sea level rise tool as being 

15 underwater with one foot of sea level rise. And 

16 imagine when another super storm Sandy hits and 

17 have a powerful storm surge on top of this sea 

18 level rise. Imagine the destruction and the 

19 lives lost in the area when it's our friends and 

20 family. It's not fair to my daughter, it's not 

21 fair to our children to do nothing in the face of 

22 this reality. We must act now. 

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1 Power plants are responsible for 40 

2 percent of the carbon pollution in the U.S. and 

3 by cleaning up and modernizing power plants we 

4 will begin to clean up our air, reduce polluted 

5 related illness, and curb climate disruption. 

6 I have a Masters of Public Health, and 

7 reducing carbon pollution from power plants will 

8 not only save billions of dollars each year, it 

9 will save lives. In fact for every dollar 

10 investment in the plan we'll see roughly $7 in 

11 benefits. This is crucial to my fellow public 

12 health professionals with the American Public 

13 Health Association. 

14 The Clean Power Plan creates a strong 

15 framework that will enable states to move towards 

16 clean energy and put states in the driver's seat 

17 to create a plan to eliminate carbon pollution. 

18 The carbon pollution standards present a huge 

19 opportunity to improve our environment, public 

20 health, and the economy. 

21 The U.S. is well on its way to meeting 

22 and exceeding EPA's proposed goals and the U.S. 

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1 can be a leader in making the transition to clean 

2 and equitable energy future.

3 Sierra Club will be working with its 

4 allies to strengthen the EPA's carbon pollution 

5 standard for existing power plants. With 

6 improvements Sierra Club recommends the carbon 

7 pollution standards could reduce power plant

8 emissions potentially 35 to 40 percent from 2005 

9 levels by 2020, and that would be in line with 

10 meeting the president's goal of 17 percent 

11 reduction in U.S. carbon emissions from 2005 

12 levels.

13 It could also promote energy efficiency 

14 and renewable energy, without incentivizing 

15 natural gas, nuclear, and other climate 

16 disrupting energy sources. 

17 Poll after poll demonstrates the public 

18 supports and limitation of the Clean Air Act. 

19 And letting the EPA do its job to protect public 

20 health and ensure a cleaner future for us all, we 

21 should not let a vocal minority of profit-drive 

22 corporate polluters derail standards that would 

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1 have tremendous benefits for our children, our 

2 families, and all Americans who value clean air 

3 and wild places.

4 Again, we strongly support EPA's efforts 

5 to clean up dangerous carbon pollution and we 

6 strong support the standard. Thank you very 

7 much.

8 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. I'd 

9 next like to ask Senator McConnell and Bill 

10 Bissett to come to the table. Is Bill Bissett 

11 here? 

12 (No audible response.) 

13 MS. DUNHAM: Would you like to join them 

14 and go up next? 

15 COURT REPORTER: Speak into the 

16 microphone.

17 MS. DUNHAM: Yeah, I'm sorry. Okay. So 

18 let me just be louder. So, if Bill Bissett is in 

19 the room, if you could come to the table as well 

20 as Senator McConnell. 

21 Okay. Do the next card. Okay. I'd like 

22 to ask Jimmy Rose and Lon Huber, if you're in the 

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1 room, please to come to the table. Okay.

2 We'll have to refresh our cards here. 

3 But you go ahead and we'll see who is next up.

4 MR. HUBER: Okay. Thank you. Good 

5 morning. My name is Lon Huber. I'm an employee 

6 with Arizona's Residential Utility Consumer 

7 Office, or RUCO. 

8 RUCO is a state governmental agency that 

9 represents the interest of Arizona's residential 

10 rate pairs. 

11 Since our establishment in '83 by the 

12 Arizona legislature RUCO has provided a voice for 

13 residential consumers and rate related 

14 proceedings involving public service corporations 

15 of all kinds. RUCO also actively participates in 

16 high level policy discussions made by the State 

17 Utility Commission.

18 We pride ourselves on being a thoughtful

19 stakeholder and we strive to guide the 

20 development of smart policies that maximize the 

21 benefits for residential rate pairs and for the 

22 utility system as a whole. 

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1 It is what that frame that I come before 

2 you today to address the proposed Clean Power 

3 Plan rules. 

4 Based on our initial review of the 111D 

5 Rule RUCO has three major concerns. These issues

6 do not represent the totality of our position and 

7 we plan to provide additional comments after 

8 further review.

9 First, EPA calls for a significant and 

10 concerning level of redispatch from coal to 

11 natural gas. In fact redispatch represents 

12 Arizona's largest building block by far, roughly 

13 70 percent of our potential.

14 This target could very well force our 

15 state to run down nearly all of our coal plants. 

16 While Arizona does have a large amount of natural 

17 gas generation, only 50 percent of those 

18 facilities are owned by our state utilities. 

19 Moreover, they are largely located in one general 

20 area west of Phoenix. To that end we are 

21 concerned that the EPA's assumed level of 

22 redispatch fails to account for several related

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1 factors, including existing contractual 

2 obligations, transmission capacity constraints, 

3 pipeline availability, security considerations, 

4 and air quality limitations. 

5 Second, according to the proposed rule 

6 EPA assumes Arizona would be able to complete 

7 this foundational transition from coal to natural 

8 gas by around 2020. About five years after we 

9 get clarity on our targets, and even less time 

10 from when our state plan actually gains approval.

11 Since Arizona has no natural gas storage 

12 and only two major national gas pipelines, this 

13 radically compressed timeline leaves Arizona 

14 virtually no time for proper economic, safety, 

15 and reliability based preparation. Furthermore, 

16 we operate outside of an RTO or ISO. Thus, we do 

17 not have the same flexibility to easily 

18 redispatch as other states. 

19 This scale of this redispatch mixed with

20 the interim goal creates a perfect storm that 

21 could expose our rate pairs to serious 

22 reliability and safety issues. In a dessert 

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1 Southwest summer reliable electricity is not a 

2 luxury, it is a life sustaining necessity. 

3 We urge the EPA to provide a 

4 substantially longer runway for states to make 

5 this coal to natural gas transition and include a 

6 phase-in approach to redispatch. 

7 Also the interim average target is so 

8 close to the end 2030 target it leaves little 

9 room for flexibility, let alone enough time to 

10 cite needed upgrades. Put simply the interim 

11 level reduction would be more prudent to trigger 

12 around 2030.

13 Third, forward looking states should get 

14 credit for their leadership. Notably the EPA's 

15 best practices for energy efficiency are 

16 partially based on the energy efficiency targets 

17 and savings demonstrated by Arizona. Yet, it did 

18 not give Arizona credit for its work as an early 

19 adopter.

20 Likewise, we have the largest nuclear 

21 generation station in the country, yet only 

22 receive what every other state receives, that 5.8 

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1 percent credit for that energy.

2 There are several ways to remedy this 

3 issue regarding EE And RE standards. States with 

4 higher than average deployment when compared to 

5 their regional peers, should be able to count 

6 verify savings since inception of their standard. 

7 For nuclear the credit should be equal to the 

8 percentage of load being served by that resource.

9 For example, if nuclear counts for 15 

10 percent of the State's generation then an 

11 equivalent credit should be given without 

12 increasing the target. Similarly Arizona should 

13 get some credit for its hydro investments which 

14 have provided carbon-free energy reliably for 

15 many years.

16 In summing up these three points I would 

17 like to reiterate our deep concern about the 

18 level of natural gas switching proposed for 

19 Arizona, dispatch into natural gas generation 

20 that we do not own, whose location largely 

21 resides in one part of a large state, and on such 

22 an aggressive timeline presents many practical 

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1 challenges. These factors lead us to question 

2 the achievability of EPA's target.

3 Finally, I do want to thank the EPA staff 

4 in advance for listening to us today and acting 

5 on our concerns. As the EPA evaluates our 

6 comments I urge you to consider the following. 

7 Arizona is one of only two states not to see a 

8 net benefit from this rule, and we also have one 

9 the highest rates of reduction. For these 

10 reasons RUCO is concerned that the proposed rule 

11 would expose Arizona rate pairs through economic, 

12 health, and security risks that are unduly 

13 burdensome.

14 As such we urge the EPA to revisit 

15 Arizona's target and consider the suggestions we 

16 have presented.

17 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. All 

18 right. I'd like to ask Seth Heald and Theresa 

19 Pugh to come to the front table now, please. 

20 MS. PUGH: He's being such a gentleman. 

21 Thank you. 

22 Good morning, I'm Theresa Pugh, Director 

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1 of Environmental Services with the American 

2 Public Power Association. APPA is the national 

3 association for 2000 state and municipally owned 

4 or not for profit electric utilities. We serve 

5 in 49 states and we serve 46 million Americans.

6 We appreciate the opportunity to comment 

7 on the proposed rule. We believe that Congress 

8 should have addressed this and made a very 

9 different ultimately a regulatory decision that 

10 was different than this, but obviously that's not 

11 the case. 

12 As a result we think that EPA could have 

13 done a far more flexible approach on the Co2 

14 regulation in 111D. 111D is not inherently this 

15 complex or this difficult to meet. We have 

16 multiple concerns with the proposal. We intend 

17 to file comments that are constructive, fact 

18 based, and make recommendations to actually 

19 improve the proposed rule in a more workable, 

20 affordable, and sustainable manner.

21 But we believe that this proposal goes 

22 well beyond what the statute authorizes. We're 

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1 disappointed that the states were not given the 

2 full authority that they have in the law to set 

3 individual state limits, individual plant limits. 

4 And this proposed rule provides on role for the 

5 states in setting those standards or in revising 

6 those state plans as they might be needed, 

7 particularly given difficulties in achieving the 

8 standards.

9 Simply, the proposal tries to do too much 

10 too fast. The state limits are too stringent and 

11 they offer a wide and differing level of 

12 compliance for many different states. 

13 As others have pointed out, the limits 

14 are front loaded, so you really have to actually 

15 achieve most of what is required by 2020, not 

16 2030.

17 Another key concern is the states don't 

18 get full credit for all of the reduction measures 

19 undertaken and those investments in renewable 

20 energy and energy efficiency that they've 

21 undertaken far earlier than 2012. And even 

22 though the president mentions that the goal is a 

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1 17 percent reduction in greenhouse gasses since 

2 2005, that's really not undertaken here because 

3 we don't get full credit.

4 Public Power is already well on track to 

5 meet that overall reduction target, by the way. 

6 But it's crucial that our members receive full 

7 credit for all of the reductions undertaken since 

8 before the 2012 base line year.

9 In addition we worry about the 

10 requirements for state agencies that are 

11 unachievable, and that these actions may in fact 

12 perhaps surprisingly force the premature 

13 retirement of not just coal plants but natural 

14 gas plants. The result may indeed incur stranded 

15 costs that will be paid for by the consumer of 

16 electricity. And that might have, in some 

17 localized locations, impacts on electricity 

18 reliability.

19 While there's been a lot of touting 

20 flexibility for states in choosing various 

21 compliance options, that flexibility seems to be 

22 a mirage. The aggressive assumptions and the 

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1 selection of data in setting the base lines, the 

2 whole calculation process, is just too much. 

3 There's not much left in terms of choice and 

4 flexibility. Frankly, the utilities have to do 

5 all of the building blocks. So really the 

6 building blocks become the road blocks to 

7 flexibility.

8 Lastly, the state requirements do not 

9 account for the increased demand for electricity. 

10 And this demand is both population, population 

11 migration, increased population, and energy 

12 intensive industries that will need this load or 

13 will provide load growth. 

14 We expect that the economy will grow and 

15 we think that this electricity demand is a 

16 problem. In specific the U.S. Census Department 

17 points out the largest population areas in the 

18 U.S. are Arizona, Florida, Texas, California, 

19 Nevada, Utah, Colorado, North Carolina, and 

20 Delaware. And this proposal does not accommodate 

21 load growth in any manner.

22 Thank you for the opportunity to speak. 

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1 We will file detailed comments later. Thank you.

2 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. 

3 MR. HEALD: Good morning. My name is 

4 Seth Heald. I've lived in Virginia for 32 years. 

5 I have retired recently after a 35 year career 

6 practice in law and I enrolled in a graduate 

7 master's degree program on energy policy and 

8 climate change at Johns Hopkins.

9 I'm also an electric cooperative member 

10 owner. I thank the EPA for issuing the proposed 

11 carbon standards and for holding this hearing 

12 today to allow the public to comment on them.

13 Efforts to reduce power plant carbon 

14 emissions are long overdue. President Lynden 

15 Johnson was briefed on global warming in the 

16 1960s. As the science historian, Spencer Weart 

17 described in his excellent book from 2003, 

18 entitled The Discovery of Global Warming, we've 

19 known since the 19th Century about the ability of 

20 atmospheric carbon dioxide emissions from burning

21 fossil fuels to raise Earth's temperature.

22 In the 1980s and 1990s the science became 

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1 even clearer, as did the evidence that 

2 atmospheric carbon dioxide has increased 

3 enormously and that our plant is, as a result, 

4 indeed warming. 

5 So we've known for some time what we need 

6 to do, but our nation and much of the rest of the 

7 world have dithered. It's heartening that EPA 

8 has now taken a serious step towards reducing 

9 carbon emissions from a leading source, electric 

10 power plants. In truth the proposed rule is 

11 insufficient. We don't need to delay. We don't 

12 need to set lower standards. We need to impose 

13 higher standards sooner even though there may be 

14 some difficulty in that, that we have to have our 

15 solution be commensurate with the size of the 

16 problem we're dealing with.

17 But I won't dwell on that here. The 

18 proposed standards and the great flexibility that 

19 they give to each state to implement them are an 

20 important first step in our effort to 

21 decarbonizes the grid. 

22 We know we can do this. In fact many 

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1 states, not waiting for the EPA, have already 

2 taken significant steps to reduce their power 

3 plant emissions, their carbon emission, and their 

4 economies have not suffered. In fact they've 

5 thrived.

6 Unfortunate my state, Virginia, is well 

7 behind the leaders in acting on climate. But 

8 these carbon rules will prod Virginia to catch up 

9 with its more forward-thinking neighbors, and 

10 that's long overdue.

11 Despite the urgency of our climate 

12 predicament, you have heard and will hear from 

13 people and corporations, some quite powerful and 

14 influential who claim that we can't do this or we 

15 can't afford to or it will ruin our economy. 

16 Many of these naysayers are linked to and profit 

17 greatly from the burning of fossil fuels, as 

18 shown by Professor Naomi Oreskes in another 

19 excellent book, Merchants of Doubt. Some fossil 

20 fuel interest have even promoted a deliberate 

21 campaign of disinformation about climate science, 

22 designed to create a false sense of doubt; just 

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1 as what was done decades earlier in the case of 

2 tobacco and its link to cancer.

3 The short answers to the climate action 

4 naysayers are one, we can't afford not to act 

5 now. Two, delaying climate action will cost our 

6 economy much more. And three, the EPA is 

7 required to act on carbon emissions because the 

8 Supreme Court has told the EPA that it must, 

9 including seven years ago in the case EPA vs. 

10 Massachusetts. 

11 In fact the current efforts of some, 

12 including some members of Congress to demonize

13 the EPA's carbon reduction efforts and to not 

14 implement EPA vs. Massachusetts, remind me of an 

15 unfortunate chapter in Virginia's history. 

16 In the 1950s a shameful effort termed 

17 Massive Resistance, was established at the 

18 instigation of a U.S. senator for Virginia. Many 

19 other public officials signed on and state laws 

20 were even passed in support of that effort. The 

21 purpose of course was to block implementation of 

22 the Supreme Court's decision in Brown vs. Board 

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1 of Education, which barred segregation in public 

2 schools.

3 The massive resistance of the 1950s was 

4 morally and legally wrong, and the actions of a 

5 group of misguided people who were on the wrong 

6 side of history. Well, the same is true of those 

7 today who say we can't do this, we shouldn't do 

8 this, we can't afford to do this.

9 Virginians and all Americans face severe 

10 threats to life, limb, public health, and 

11 property from global warming. Thank you EPA for 

12 taking this important step that you have now 

13 taken to reduce carbon emissions.

14 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much 

15 (indiscernible)**1:01:24. All right. I'd like 

16 to ask Senator McConnell as well as Jimmy Rose to 

17 come to the table, please. 

18 MR. MCCONNELL: Good morning. I 

19 appreciate the opportunity to participate in 

20 today's second round of listening sessions. It's 

21 my understanding that these sessions are intended 

22 to gather stakeholder input on EPA's proposed

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1 regulations on existing power plants.

2 However, I couldn't help but notice that 

3 once again these sessions are scheduled in 

4 locations that are very difficult from our 

5 constituents in coal country to get to. The 

6 closest hearing for them is in Atlanta, which for 

7 many is a 13 hour round trip. 

8 You say everyone has an opportunity to be 

9 heard, whether by online submissions forms, fax, 

10 or mail if they cannot make the hearings. Well, 

11 many in coal country are facing a depression and 

12 are out of work. In large part due to your 

13 agency's war on coal. 

14 The internet and your online portal are 

15 not readily accessible for many of my 

16 constituents. Snail mail does not provide any 

17 reassurance that their comments have been 

18 received and are being taken seriously. My 

19 constituents want to talk to you in person, look 

20 you in the eye, and tell you what these 

21 regulations will do to their families.

22 However, you have refused to accept my 

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1 numerous invitations to come to Kentucky, and so 

2 that's why I'm back here again today. 

3 I brought with me a friend from coal 

4 country, Jimmy Rose. Jimmy is from Pineville, 

5 Kentucky, and he's a veteran of the U.S. Marine 

6 Corps, a former coal miner, and a finalist on 

7 America's Got Talent. He is famous for his song, 

8 Coal Keeps the Lights On. 

9 Members of the Kentucky Coal Association 

10 are here with us today as well. 

11 To us it seems as though the EPA wants to 

12 take one of our signature industries away. The 

13 onslaught of overregulation and lack of certainty 

14 in the coal industry has contributed to the loss 

15 of 7,000 coal jobs since President Obama took 

16 office. 

17 Despite the claims of many it doesn't 

18 have to be this way, according to both the 

19 Kentucky Energy and Environment Cabinet and the 

20 Energy Information Administration, Kentucky coal 

21 jobs were actually up during the previous 

22 administration by 3,500 jobs from 2001 to 2008.

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1 That makes it clear to me that layers 

2 upon layers of regulations this administration 

3 keeps piling on are contributing in a major way 

4 to this decline. 

5 Last month your agency proposed this rule 

6 for existing power plants. These regulations 

7 come on top of a host of other regulations that 

8 comprise the war on coal, such as your proposed 

9 carbon pollution standards on new power plants, 

10 the mercury and air toxic standards, the ozone 

11 national ambient air quality standards, and the 

12 cross-state air pollution rule, just to name a 

13 few. 

14 This doesn't even address the mine 

15 permitting process which is slower than ever.

16 But today we're specifically here to talk 

17 about your latest regulation for existing power 

18 plants. I believe this regulation to be more 

19 like a scheme than a rule. It's a numbers game 

20 masquerading under the guise of allowing states 

21 flexibility to meet an individual prescribed 

22 carbon reduction goal. But the effect of 

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1 reaching this goal treats states different and 

2 plays favorites. Kentucky's assigned target is 

3 to reduce carbon emissions in 2013 by 18 percent, 

4 while Washington State has been assigned a target 

5 of over 70 percent. 

6 The targets paint an illusion by using 

7 percentages rather than real numbers. An 

8 illusion that Kentucky is somehow getting off 

9 easy. But of course this is not the case. 

10 Kentucky will have to cut much more emissions 

11 than Washington to meet its target. This is 

12 because Washington does not utilize low-cost, 

13 efficient, and reliable coal fire generation and 

14 Kentucky does. Washington will only have to 

15 close one coal-fired power plant to meet its goal 

16 of reducing emissions by over 70 percent.

17 However, Kentucky, with 20 coal-fired 

18 power plants that provide our state with 90 

19 percent of its electricity will have to cut 

20 significantly more jobs and reliable income for 

21 thousands of families across the state in order 

22 to meet its goal. 

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1 It's those in less fortunate communities 

2 and those who lost their jobs due to fuel 

3 switching that are hurt the most from higher 

4 utility bills. 

5 Now it seems to me, and to many fellow 

6 Kentuckians, that as far as the EPA is concerned, 

7 coal is simply a dirty word. I can assure you 

8 that is not the case in the Commonwealth of 

9 Kentucky. In my state coal is what has provided 

10 a life's work for generations. It has put food 

11 on the table and paid for clothes, education, and 

12 healthcare. It represents the pride to be found 

13 from an honest day's work. And I'm here on 

14 behalf of Kentuckians throughout my state to say 

15 that we will not sand idly by while this 

16 administration tries to wipe out the lifeblood of 

17 our state.

18 So before I conclude I want to thank my 

19 friend, Bill Bissett, President of the Kentucky 

20 Coal Association, who is here and will testify 

21 later. Bill has made the trip to Washington to

22 speak for many in the coal industry he 

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1 represents, who could not come.

2 And I want to introduce, at this point, 

3 my good friend, the voice of a Kentucky 

4 coalminer, Jimmy Rose.

5 MS. DUNHAM: Mr. Rose.

6 MR. ROSE: I pledge allegiance to the 

7 flag and to the United States of America, to the 

8 Republic for which it stands, one nation under 

9 God, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for 

10 all.

11 Folks, I don't feel we're a united nation 

12 anymore. I don't feel that we are one nation 

13 under God anymore. I don't feel we're 

14 indivisible anymore when we had to buy coal from 

15 another country like Russia to keep our own 

16 people working. Australia is the only country 

17 now to oppose this new tax admission. I feel 

18 that it's a sad thing. 

19 Let me ask you all a question. Has any 

20 of you ever experienced a war zone, combat, 

21 warrior fear of not knowing if you're going to 

22 make it another day? Take a walk through my 

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1 hometown. Take a walk through Bell County, 

2 Harlan, Knox, Bracken, Whitley, Pike, or Perry 

3 County Kentucky, just to mention a few. Folks, 

4 there you're going to find a war zone. There 

5 you're going to find real people with real lives. 

6 Real families who suffer from this civil war, and 

7 this war on coal. 

8 Come walk through my communities and see 

9 the businesses closed, the trucks parked, the for 

10 sale signs. Come walk through the schools and 

11 look at the faces of the kids who suffer from 

12 jobless daddies, jobless brothers, or uncles, or 

13 cousins. Come visit the unemployment offices 

14 where you're going to find those same jobless 

15 daddies, uncles, and brothers, and cousins, 

16 looking for it because we want to work. We don't 

17 want a handout.

18 Come visit the churches where you're 

19 going to find those same people come together in 

20 prayer at such needed time. Okay? 

21 No, you won't come to this war zone. You 

22 won't come to this poverty stricken area. You 

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1 won't come and look my people in the eye. You 

2 don't want to have to look to their kids and have 

3 to make up an excuse to go back home to make 

4 yourself feel better. You don't want to have to 

5 go back home to your lives, okay, and sit behind 

6 your desk to make decisions that kill our way of 

7 life. You don't want to have to do that.

8 In closing I want to encourage you, I 

9 want to challenge you, okay, when you're making 

10 these decisions to consider the repercussions, to 

11 consider these repercussions on the decisions 

12 you're making kill our way of life. At least 

13 consider what you're doing and what you're really 

14 doing to their life or way of life. 

15 I'm for saving the environment. I'm for 

16 saving our future. But I believe we've got to 

17 save us first. I believe we've got to save our 

18 people first. Without our people we don't have a 

19 tomorrow, folks. I believe we've got to save 

20 what's real first. 

21 Galatians 62 says bear one another's 

22 burdens. It's the law of Christ. Bear each of 

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1 us burdens. Bear our hurt and their pain. It's 

2 the law of Christ. Okay, I challenge you to do 

3 that.

4 Where I come from coal keeps the lights 

5 on. Not natural gas, oil, wind turbines, or any 

6 other energy source but coal. Makes up 97

7 percent of Kentucky's energy. 

8 I want to thank you all for this 

9 opportunity. Thank you for having me and all my 

10 constituents and God bless.

11 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. 

12 Rose and Senator McDonnell. 

13 Okay. We might take a quick two minute 

14 pause because I -- let's take a short pause here 

15 while we wait for the next list. 

16 (Pause.) 

17 MS. DUNHAM: Okay. Let me just ask, is 

18 Mr. Bill Bissett here? Okay. Why don't we go 

19 ahead and if you'd like to come to the table.

20 MR. BISSETT: Yes, ma'am.

21 MS. DUNHAM: You can speak. Thank you 

22 very much.

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1 MR. BISSETT: Thank you. Good morning, 

2 my name is Bill Bissett and I'm the president of 

3 the Kentucky Coal Association and organization 

4 representing nearly 12,000 men and women, 

5 employed directly in Kentucky coal mining and 

6 approximately 36,000 other Kentuckians whose 

7 livelihood is connected to our industry. 

8 I want to thank U.S. Senator Mitch 

9 McConnell for securing me the opportunity to 

10 speak with you today after these hearings were 

11 closed more than two weeks ago. 

12 KCA strongly opposes EPA's proposed Clean 

13 Air Act Section 111D regulations because they 

14 have no legal foundation and would jeopardize the 

15 American economy without any resulting economic 

16 benefit -- excuse me, environmental benefit. 

17 More specifically, the thousands of men, 

18 women, and children whose lives depend upon 

19 Kentucky coal will be placed in jeopardy as a 

20 result of a symbolic gesture that can accomplish 

21 nothing in the real world.

22 As is well known the Kentucky coal 

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1 industry has suffered tremendous job losses in 

2 the past two years due in large parts to the 

3 actions of President Obama and this EPA. Your 

4 current Section 111D proposal has the potential

5 to convert these previous job losses into a full6 fledged economic collapse, especially for coal 

7 mining coal using states like Kentucky.

8 The legal backdrop for this current 

9 proposal reflects a stunning absence of respect 

10 for constitutional principles, of separation of 

11 powers, and the will of the American people. The 

12 rejection by congress of Cap and Trade 

13 legislation five years ago should have put an end 

14 to your attempts to comprehensively reduce 

15 greenhouse gas emissions except through 

16 technology based provisions of the Clean Air Act.

17 Instead we are confronted by an attempted 

18 end-run around Congress using legal authorities 

19 never intended for such purposes. This proposal 

20 is clearly an attempt to force a square 

21 regulatory peg into a round statutory hole and it 

22 has little chance of surviving judicial review.

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1 EPA should heed the warning of the U.S. 

2 Supreme Court in the UARG decision, which I will 

3 quote, "EPA's interpretation is also unreasonable 

4 because it would bring about an enormous and 

5 transformative expansion in the EPA's regulatory 

6 authority without clear congressional 

7 authorization. When an agency claims to discover 

8 in a long extent statute, an unheralded power to 

9 regulate a significant portion of the American 

10 economy, we typically greet this announcement 

11 with a measure of skepticism. We expect Congress 

12 to speak clearly if it wishes to assign to an 

13 agency, decisions of vast economic and political 

14 significance.

15 Although the UARG decision addressed 

16 regulation of greenhouse gasses under the PSD 

17 program, can there be any real doubt that the 

18 quoted language was intended to address the 

19 Section 111D proposal?

20 If the Section 111D proposal has any 

21 potential to protect public health KCA and those 

22 it represents would have an entirely different 

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1 opinion. However, it is clear it has no such 

2 potential. KCA urges EPA not to destroy the 

3 lives and aspirations of so many hardworking 

4 Americans in order to provide a feel-good moment 

5 for an elitist minority. 

6 To stay within my allotted five minutes I 

7 would like to briefly address several points that 

8 need to be relayed to you. You need to have more 

9 hearings. It is one issue that the Sierra Club 

10 and I agree upon. You need to have more hearings 

11 where more voices can be heard and you need to 

12 come to the coal fields and listen to the people 

13 there.

14 It is simply unexpectful to expect people 

15 who live in the coal fields to only be able to 

16 send an e-mail or a letter. You need to hear 

17 their voices firsthand.

18 Much of the ongoing discussion of your

19 proposal focuses on the economic harm it will 

20 cause, but we also need to be discussing the 

21 critical importance of the reliability of our 

22 electricity supply. Coal is, from all accounts, 

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1 the most reliable fuel source to generate 

2 electricity on this plant. As Americans we take 

3 it for granted how reliable our electricity is. 

4 In many cases it is literally a life giving and 

5 sustaining resource. For you to tamper with the 

6 reliability of electricity by forcing the switch 

7 to less reliable fuel sources is wrong-headed and 

8 simply dangerous. 

9 And you and President Obama attempt to 

10 move this country away from coal usage when the 

11 rest of the world is moving towards coal as fast 

12 as they can. China, India, Spain, Germany, Japan 

13 are just a few examples of countries building new 

14 coal plants. We get frequent calls at Kentucky 

15 Coal Associations from buyers in other countries 

16 who want our coal to meet their growing demand 

17 overseas. 

18 You're trying some kind of international 

19 example. You're trying to set some kind of 

20 international example and the rest of the world 

21 is not following you. Other countries will 

22 continue to build their economies on coal-based 

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1 electricity like the United States did, or they 

2 will decrease their cost of electricity following 

3 a failed experience to other forms of electricity 

4 production that have become either too costly or 

5 not in their best interest.

6 The United States has the largest coal 

7 reserves in the world, and by using the coal 

8 that's in the ground here in our country we can 

9 move much closer to the energy independence that 

10 so many of us want to see in our lifetimes.

11 Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

12 for so many Kentuckians today, that we believe 

13 what you are doing is misguided, against the will 

14 of congress, extremely harmful to our economy, 

15 and the affordable reliable electricity that 

16 created this country and gives us the wonderful 

17 quality of life we have. Please know that we 

18 will work diligently to stop your efforts with 

19 every legal, political, and public means at our 

20 disposal. Thank you.

21 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you, Mr. Bissett. 

22 Okay. Next I'd like to ask Paul Faeth 

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1 and Julie Hantman to come to the table. All 

2 right. Mr. Faeth.

3 MR. FAETH: Thank you. Good morning. My 

4 name is Paul Faeth. I am the Director of Energy, 

5 Weather, and Climate Division at the Institute 

6 for Public Research, CNA Corporation. We are 

7 nonprofit research and analysis organization 

8 located in Arlington, Virginia.

9 For the last four years we have 

10 undertaken work focused on water use in the power 

11 sector, and I'll focus my comments on that.

12 In the U.S. water use for thermal cooling 

13 of steam generators represents the largest source 

14 of fresh water withdrawals and the largest source 

15 of water consumption. This water dependence 

16 represents a significant source of vulnerability 

17 for the power sector during times of drought.

18 In 2011 Texas suffered the worst one year 

19 drought in its history. Demand for electricity 

20 was at an all-time high because of the heat, and 

21 the water needed to cool the state's power plants 

22 was in short supply. In some places water levels 

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1 had dropped below intake pipes. In others the 

2 available water was too hot to provide effective 

3 cooling. Texans were warned that rolling 

4 blackouts were possible.

5 In the end ERCOT, the good operator, met 

6 demand without blackouts, though it came close. 

7 A key factor in keeping the power flowing during 

8 the drought was that Texas had been aggressively 

9 developing wind power. 

10 Currently Texas generates more power from 

11 the wind than any other state. Wind is a power 

12 source that requires no water, unlike thirsty 

13 source, such as coal. 

14 This Monday CNN released two reports on 

15 water use in electricity generation. The first 

16 one detailing analysis we did in four case 

17 studies, China, France, India, and Texas. And 

18 the second providing strategies to capture 

19 synergies between water conservation and carbon 

20 dioxide emissions.

21 In the course of the work we developed a 

22 new power sector model that accounts for water 

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1 use. Currently neither EPA nor the Energy 

2 Information Administration have policy models 

3 that can estimate changes to water use in the 

4 power sector under different regulations.

5 We found that three strategies are very 

6 effective in reducing the amount of water 

7 required for cooling of thermo electric power 

8 plants. These are energy efficiency, wind and 

9 (indiscernible)**1:19:02 renewable generation, 

10 and switching from coal to natural gas.

11 Energy efficiency works because it avoids

12 the need for new generation. It is also the 

13 least expensive option. Wind and PV cut use 

14 water because they don't require water use to 

15 generate power except for the water to wash PV 

16 panels. And moving from coal to natural gas 

17 works because the higher efficiency levels of gas 

18 turbines means that there is lest waste heat. 

19 And therefore gas uses half or less of the water 

20 needed for coal plants. 

21 Nuclear power requires more water than 

22 coal, and carbon capture and sequestration almost 

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1 doubles water's requirements. 

2 Relative to coal, energy efficiency, 

3 renewable energy, and natural gas also cut carbon 

4 dioxide emissions in roughly the same proportions 

5 that they save water. Since these strategies are 

6 the basis for the building blocks proposed in the 

7 Clean Power Plan, this means that the plan will 

8 not only reduce Co2 emissions but also cut water 

9 use in the power sector.

10 We have recently applied our model to 

11 look at the potential impacts of the proposed 

12 rule in Texas. As you are aware Texas has the 

13 largest Co2 emissions of any state, but 80 

14 percent larger than the second, which is 

15 California. More than a third of those emissions 

16 come from electricity generation.

17 We set up the model to represent option 

18 one for the state program. In 2012 Texas's 

19 emission rate was 1284 pounds of Co2 per megawatt 

20 hour. It's final target rate is 791, and the 

21 interim 2029 the rate is 853. 

22 The mix of electric power generation in 

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1 Texas currently was 37 percent coal, 47 percent 

2 gas, 9 percent nuclear, and 8 percent wind. Our 

3 preliminary results, which I want to stress are 

4 subject to change, show that Texas is likely to 

5 achieve substantial reductions in water use for 

6 thermal cooling as well as Co2 emissions, even 

7 without the proposed rule.

8 In our baseline scenario we see a 15 

9 percent reduction in water consumption, and a 31 

10 percent drop in the carbon intensity rate, from 

11 1,284 to 858 between 2012 and 2029.

12 Over that period total Co2 emissions 

13 declined by 18 percent. We also see a drop in 

14 So2 emissions of one third and a 29 percent drop 

15 in Nox. 

16 The reason is that the price of wind is 

17 already competitive with gas, and wind and gas 

18 are both cheaper than coal in Texas. Also wind 

19 costs are expected to decline while the price of 

20 gas is expected to increase. Thus we see that 

21 coal generation declines by one third while 

22 generation grows by 12 percent, and wind 

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1 generation quintuples.

2 These numbers for growth might seem 

3 extreme, but peak demand for integration in ERCOT 

4 jumped from 17 to 30 percent between 2012 and 

5 2013. The potential is very very large.

6 With the intensity rate substantially in 

7 the baseline the new rules won't require Texas to 

8 make extraordinary adjustments to meet the 

9 targets. Because of the addition of end-use 

10 efficiency demand is lower by 10 percent by 2029. 

11 Coal power drops further to just 56 percent of 

12 the 2012 number, with less demand, wind and gas 

13 generation grow less than the baseline.

14 We find that the implementation of the 

15 Clean Power Plan in Texas would further increase 

16 water savings in the state by about two thirds 

17 more compared to the baseline, from a 15 percent 

18 drop to 25 percent drop. 

19 We also find that although the cost per 

20 megawatt hour probably would increase by about 9 

21 percent, the drop in electricity consumption due 

22 to energy efficiency would push total systems 

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1 cost down.

2 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Ms. 

3 Hantman.

4 MS. HANTMAN: Thank you for the 

5 opportunity to offer my views on the proposed 

6 Clean Power Plan. My name is Julie Hantman. I 

7 am the Washington, D.C. Field Organizer for Moms 

8 Clean Air Force, a community of moms and dad 

9 united in fighting air pollution and calling for 

10 climate action.

11 When I became a parent two and a half 

12 years ago, I learned quickly that parenting is a 

13 tough job. The sleeplessness, the uncertainties, 

14 costs and decisions. It's joyous, but it's 

15 really hard.

16 Climate change is making that tough job a 

17 lot tougher. In fact it's interfering with my 

18 three basic roles as a parent. My role as 

19 protector. A climate changed world weakens my 

20 ability to protect my daughter from serious 

21 health and weather related threats. My family 

22 lives here in Washington, D.C. and our extended 

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1 family across the wider northeast, a region with 

2 the greatest increase in extreme precipitation

3 according to the National Climate Assessment.

4 My mother-in-law lives in Southern Nassau 

5 County, Long Island, just a few miles from the 

6 shoreline where Hurricane Sandy landed with the 

7 intensity of a once in 300 year storm there, 

8 damaging or destroying 74,000 structures in 

9 Nassau County alone.

10 Here in D.C. I tried to keep my daughter 

11 indoors on days when ground-level ozone is 

12 elevated. Ozone can lead to breathing 

13 difficulties, especially in children.

14 D.C. already gets a failing grade on 

15 ozone levels from the American Lung Association, 

16 yet ozone will further worsen as a result of

17 increased temperatures linked to climate change.

18 I have a master's degree in public 

19 health, so I'm aware of the other health threats 

20 posed by climate change, heat stroke, infectious 

21 diseases and more. These are real threats that 

22 could easily overwhelm the capabilities of many 

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1 state and county public health systems which are 

2 fragile to being with.

3 Secondly, climate change challenges my 

4 role as teacher. A mother ought to feel joy and 

5 confidence teaching her child simple aspects of 

6 the natural world. But that world, our best 

7 scientists say, is changing and degrading. And 

8 the normal truths about the weather, plants, and 

9 animals will not endure throughout my daughter's 

10 life. 

11 When we visit the zoo I am quietly 

12 uneasy, aware that many animals she's getting to 

13 know will dwindle in the wild and even go 

14 extinct, unable to adapt to a changing climate, 

15 during her lifetime.

16 Finally, unchecked climate change will 

17 threaten the quintessential mom role of reassure 

18 in chief. My mother always modeled hope for me. 

19 Her voice still resonates and reassures me in 

20 turbulent times. Hearing the clear-eyed 

21 predictions of our best scientists I wonder if 

22 I'll be able to reassure my daughter that the 

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1 future is bright, or that the world can be 

2 improved.

3 In my day to day life and in my work with 

4 Moms Clean Air Force I carry the conviction that 

5 if we run hard with the excellent science we have 

6 and make the strong and fair changes we need to 

7 make, then we will be able to safeguard for our 

8 children the hopeful horizons we've enjoyed in 

9 our own lives. Our kids will need resilience to 

10 survive the hard times ahead, but if we start 

11 acting now then qualities like lightheartedness 

12 and purpose also will find true places in our 

13 children's and grandchildren's lives.

14 And parents will have an easier time 

15 doing their jobs, namely protecting, teaching, 

16 and reassuring our kids. 

17 I support the proposed standards and I 

18 ask that EPA further strengthen the Clean Power 

19 Plan by finalizing the rule that reduces carbon 

20 dioxide emissions by 50 percent below 2005 levels 

21 by 2020.

22 Thank you again for the opportunity to 

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1 speak today. 

2 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you. Thanks very 

3 much. Next at the table I'd like to ask Alan 

4 Hantman and Rosalyn Hantman. Thank you very 

5 much.

6 MS. HANTMAN: Okay. Thank you for the 

7 opportunity to appear before you. My name is 

8 Rosalyn Hantman. I'm retired from my position at 

9 Columbia University where I served as the 

10 Director of Organization Development. And I'm 

11 the very proud grandparent of six curious, 

12 sensitive, and bright young people ranging in 

13 ages from two to 19. You've just met Lila. 

14 I'm here today because I'm very worried 

15 about the choices our grandchildren will inherit. 

16 Choices that will be severely limited by a future 

17 that will be defined by increasingly poor air 

18 quality and by rising seas, unless concerted 

19 action is taken today.

20 MR. HANTMAN: Good afternoon. My name is 

21 Alan Hantman. Rosalyn and I have been married 

22 for 49 years. We believe that there's much that 

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1 can be done to improve the environment for all 

2 our children and grandchildren, and I present one 

3 very positive example. 

4 I'm the former architect of the United 

5 States Capitol, appointed by President Clinton in 

6 1997, and confirmed unanimously by the U.S. 

7 Senate. During my tenure from 1997 to 2007 I was 

8 responsible for a 2,300 person legislative branch 

9 agency and all the government buildings on 

10 Capitol Hill. This included the Capitol Power 

11 Plant, for which I commissioned an environmental 

12 study that recommended, given the plant's 

13 location in the densely populated Washington, 

14 D.C. Metropolitan area, that natural gas should 

15 become its primary fuel.

16 During my tenure we began the conversion 

17 from 100 percent coal utilization by 

18 incorporating a tri-fuel operating philosophy 

19 that significantly cut down on plant emissions. 

20 This transition has continued after the 

21 completion of my term. The power plant now 

22 generates its steam and its chilled water through 

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1 the use of 98 percent natural gas. In fact plans 

2 are moving ahead towards the creation of co3 generation facilities that will create even 

4 greater efficiencies in the production of steam 

5 and electricity. This demonstrates that good 

6 things can be accomplished in reasonable stages.

7 With the cost of natural gas coming down 

8 to one third of the price it had been when this 

9 conversion began, this initiative is resulting in 

10 very significant savings in the cost of fuels 

11 used for Capitol Hill's needs, while minimizing 

12 its environmental impact on Washington, D.C.

13 MS. HANTMAN: As you are aware, the U.S. 

14 National Climate assessments was completed three 

15 months ago by a team of more than 300 experts. 

16 Their findings included clear data on warming 

17 trends, major droughts, and sea levels that are 

18 projected to rise one to four feet depending on 

19 future greenhouse gas emissions. All of these 

20 projections will significant effect millions of 

21 American families like ours. It shows that we 

22 need major positive action now to protect our 

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1 children and grandchildren.

2 Our eldest granddaughter is an A student 

3 in college. She's grown up in Bucks County, 

4 Pennsylvania, in a state that is the fourth 

5 leading producer of coal in our country, and in a 

6 county that has received a failing grade in the 

7 American Lung Association's 2014 State of the Air 

8 report.

9 She has seriously suffered from asthma 

10 since she was 10 years old, and her condition has 

11 been exacerbated by air pollution. She must 

12 bring her nebulizer to class to help relieve 

13 wheezing and tightness in her chest, which 

14 happens quite often. 

15 Clean air is not optional. Tackling 

16 climate change will clean up our air and help 

17 tackle asthma.

18 We live in Fort Lee, New Jersey, across 

19 the Hudson River from New York City and have 

20 personally seen how raging storms, including 

21 Hurricane Sandy, have washed over the shores of 

22 Edgewater, New Jersey, a town that lies just 

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1 below our home. 

2 We've witnessed storms also that are far 

3 less catastrophic than Sandy, play havoc with 

4 commercial and residential properties on both 

5 sides of the Hudson River. And we're concerned 

6 that based on the predictions of experts that 

7 climate change will restrict choices of where all 

8 of our grandchildren may choose to live and work.

9 MR. HANTMAN: The EPA's Clean Power Plan 

10 will be a very important part of the package of 

11 smart energy solutions which should include 

12 renewable energy sources. We need to provide 

13 reliable and affordable electricity that does not 

14 compromise our health, our climate, and our 

15 freedom. We cannot trade the health of all of 

16 our children and grandchildren, and that of 

17 generations to come, for the short-term economic 

18 concerns raised by industries that benefit from 

19 the status quo.

20 In closing we ask that the EPA go even 

21 further than the proposed 30 percent carbon 

22 emissions reduction target and increase the 

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1 reduction to 40 percent by 2020.

2 MS. HANTMAN: Thank you very much for the 

3 opportunity to share our very deep concerns with 

4 you today.

5 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Thank 

6 you both. 

7 All right. Next I would like to ask John 

8 Taylor and Thomas Heller to come to the table.

9 All right. Mr. Taylor, if you'd like to 

10 go first.

11 MR. TAYLOR: Hi. I'm John Taylor. I've 

12 worked as a pharmaceutical executive in the U.S. 

13 and Japan and a trade advisor -- a trade policy 

14 advisor and economic policy advisor in New 

15 Jersey, and a corporate governance consultant in 

16 the United States and Japan.

17 My wife, Takako is a licensed physician 

18 in Japan where she practiced gastroenterology for 

19 several years and worked for many years as an 

20 immunology researcher and freelance interpreter 

21 here in the U.S. in more recent years.

22 I helped brief Ronald Regan's second U.S. 

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1 Trade Represent, Clayton Yeutter, as he began his 

2 tenure, and proposed negotiation agenda items on 

3 biological products and advised Governor Tom 

4 Kean, also a Republican during his final years as 

5 New Jersey Governor, until his last term ended in 

6 1990.

7 So here is someone with what might once 

8 been considered conservative instincts, I 

9 suppose. That's why I'm appalled at my country's 

10 role in global warming and too many other 

11 environmental crises that we face, nationally and 

12 globally. To use conservative vernacular, 

13 becoming the ultimate taker state. We seem 

14 unable to bear our own weight, let alone lead 

15 developed nations and those in different stages 

16 in development.

17 Frustrating is an understatement. In a 

18 more perfect world minimalist government 

19 intervention in the form of substantial phased in 

20 carbon tax would move us from the tail end to the 

21 forefront of humanity's essential and inevitable 

22 move to save itself at a bare minimum cost to our 

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1 economy. Winners would vastly outnumber losers 

2 from such an approach, but by producing revenue 

3 it would also offer the resources to soften the 

4 burdens on any perceived victims or even to 

5 reduce other tax burdens. 

6 But above all it would harness market 

7 forces instead of working against them to 

8 substantially drive down carbon output and all 

9 that means for our plant's future.

10 Such a taxed system may be a long shot in 

11 the politics at the moment, but future 

12 generations will judge you on whether we're able 

13 to summon the courage to sew this stitch in time 

14 soon enough. 

15 If, sadly, for the very near term though, 

16 sensible carbon pricing is dead in the water, the 

17 most conscientious conservatives are four square 

18 behind the EPA's proposal, joining hands with 

19 everyone else sharing a stake in public health 

20 and in saving ourselves and future generations 

21 from catastrophic weather and sea level changes. 

22 How can we not?

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1 The next best solution is to directly 

2 regulate carbon emissions, and it's right in the 

3 EPA's toolbox.

4 Under these circumstances there's no 

5 ethical alternative to strongly supporting the 

6 EPA's plan to at least to limit carbon pollution 

7 from power plants. These sources account for 

8 some 40 percent of the carbon pollution emitted 

9 in this country.

10 The case would be overwhelming, solely on 

11 the basis of our ethical obligation to lead 

12 rather than follow in this noblest obligation of 

13 our time, to reign in carbon dioxide emissions 

14 and mitigate unacceptable global climate effects. 

15 To help the world steer as clear as 

16 possible from tipping points as we flirt with 

17 catastrophes like sea level rise and 

18 desertification and irreversible loss of 

19 biological diversity.

20 But today's choice is rendered even 

21 easier if we consider the bigger picture of 

22 carbon plant emissions. When fossil fuels are 

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1 burned the emissions include not only carbon 

2 dioxide, but as EPA's own data attest, a range of 

3 other pollutants that burden downstream 

4 neighbors, as so many have testified yesterday 

5 and today. They include the larger hydrocarbons 

6 and even particulates that undermine air quality 

7 in fronts American has been fighting ever since 

8 before we had an EPA.

9 We know they're linked to asthma, costly 

10 emergency room visits, other medical costs, and 

11 premature death. 

12 And as I mentioned, I'm a dreamer. With 

13 a policy like this in place, lobbyist serving the 

14 most efficient players in our energy sector, 

15 those who produce the highest value even after 

16 fully incorporating the cost of carbon pollution 

17 will learn to love economy wide carbon taxation. 

18 In my crystal ball I see them just around 

19 the corner spearheading political consensus for 

20 the one policy, sensible carbon pricing that will 

21 one day make measures like the Clean Power Plan 

22 that are absolutely necessary in the absence of 

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1 it, eventually unnecessary and redundant one day.

2 But until Capitol Hill and the White 

3 House act on taxation it is clearly the job of 

4 the EPA to get carbon pollution under control as 

5 effectively as possible by any means necessary.

6 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you, 

7 (indiscernible)**1:37:14. Mr. Heller.

8 MR. HELLER: Good morning. My name is 

9 Tom Heller. I'm the CEO of Missouri River Energy 

10 Services in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and I'd 

11 like to thank you for the opportunity to provide 

12 you comments.

13 Background in Missouri River Energy 

14 Services, we're a municipal joint action agency. 

15 We supply wholesale power and energy services to 

16 61 member cities in Minnesota, Iowa, North and 

17 South Dakota. Our peak load is nearly 1,000 

18 megawatts. We have one coal generating resource, 

19 Laramie River Station in Whelan, Wyoming. It's 

20 a 1,710 megawatt station built in 1980, and there 

21 are six owners.

22 MRES is a 16 and a half percent owner. 

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1 Our portion of the plant is about 280 megawatts. 

2 This single plant provides 70 percent of the 

3 energy that we sell to our members. Our comments 

4 this morning, we would ask that you redraft the 

5 proposed rules and I have a couple specific 

6 examples of what I'd like to point out.

7 First, we'd like you to consider 

8 disproportionate impacts on nondiversified fuel 

9 utilities such as MRES. 

10 This afternoon APPA, American Public 

11 Power Association and National Electric 

12 Cooperative Association are holding a staff 

13 briefing on Capitol Hill. They retained FDI 

14 Consulting. 

15 FDI Consulting has done a study and their 

16 conclusions show that the emission rate trading 

17 disproportionally hurts small utilities such as 

18 MRES.

19 The emission rate trading is very 

20 devastating to nondiversified coops and 

21 municipals. It creates stranded costs from plant 

22 shut downs.

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1 MRES is a good example of this. The EPA 

2 has recently ordered the installation of SERs, 

3 selective catalytic reduction at Laramie River 

4 Station. That is going to cost us $750 million. 

5 The remaining life of LRS should be at least 20 

6 years. If we install these SERs, will we get 20 

7 years out of the remaining life? We could have 

8 to close one of those plants due to the fact of 

9 the -- due to the mass base emissions systems 

10 that could be put into place in Wyoming. One of 

11 the three plants could be closed, causing 

12 stranded costs.

13 On an emission based system how do we 

14 comply in Wyoming? We have no load. The only 

15 way we could is possibly build some renewable 

16 energy. With no load there and reduced 

17 transmission, that seems rather foolish.

18 The cost to us to close Laramie River 

19 Station and replace that plant with natural gas 

20 combined cycle at a different location because 

21 there's not natural gas there, could cause a 65 

22 percent increase in our wholesale costs, 35 

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1 percent in member retail rates.

2 Secondly, we would ask that you allow 

3 more time for states to work together. We think 

4 the current schedule is unrealistic. MRES, as I 

5 indicated, has sales in four states. Minnesota, 

6 Iowa, North and South Dakota. That's where our 

7 member systems are. And we have a single plant 

8 in another state, Wyoming.

9 We need Co2 reduction in Wyoming and have 

10 energy efficiency programs and renewable energy 

11 programs in those four states where we have 

12 sales. Our members are doing a great job of 

13 energy efficiency and savings. They average on 

14 an annual basis about .7 percent. Our energy, 

15 our renewable energy program, we have several 

16 wind installations that provide us about 12 

17 percent of our energy right now.

18 In addition to the renewable energy that 

19 is provided by wind, we also have a 55 megawatt 

20 hydro project that we are going to start 

21 construction within the month. The Red Rock 

22 Hydro Project in Pella, Iowa is going to start 

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1 construction and hopefully be completed in 2018.

2 The President actually mentioned this 

3 project in his June 2013 and June 2014 Climate 

4 Report as an example of how we can build 

5 infrastructure to meet climate change challenges. 

6 It was listed on the Federal Infrastructure 

7 Dashboard. We need to be able to use this clean 

8 project in Iowa to offset Co2 emissions in 

9 Wyoming. 

10 And lastly, it is unclear how hydro power 

11 is treated under the draft rules. Hydro needs to 

12 be recognized as an option for future compliance. 

13 Thank you very much and we will provide written 

14 comments before the due date.

15 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Thank 

16 you both. 

17 I would next like to ask Richard Caperton 

18 and Toby Short to come to the table.

19 Okay. Mr. Caperton.

20 MR. CAPERTON: Good morning.

21 MS. DUNHAM: Good morning. Start 

22 whenever you're ready.

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1 MR. CAPERTON: It's good to see you, 

2 Paula. And thank you for having me.

3 My name is Richard Caperton and I work at 

4 a company called OPower. Thank you for giving me 

5 the opportunity to share my support for 

6 simulating investment and energy efficiency 

7 through the Clean Power Plan. 

8 OPower is excited and looking forward to 

9 working with our utility clients to save 

10 households energy and small businesses across the 

11 country. And that will not only help utilities 

12 meet the targets you set forth, but also save 

13 consumers money.

14 Let me take just a minute to tell you 

15 about OPower and how we're reducing energy 

16 consumption today. OPower provides behavioral 

17 energy efficiency, behavioral demand response,

18 and consumer engagement products to more than 90 

19 utilities in nine countries and 35 states. 

20 That's a big deal.

21 Right now we reach into 22 million 

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1 mail, websites, voice mail, text messages, and 

2 any other communication we can think of. 

3 We are making a real impact with the 

4 people that we reach. To date we have saved five 

5 terawatt hours of energy. And that translates to 

6 keeping a city the size of Las Vegas or Baltimore 

7 off the grid for an entire year. That's going to 

8 save households $550 million. That's what we've 

9 done so far. And most important to EPA, most 

10 relevant to you, is that that saves more than 3 

11 million metric tons of Co2 so far. And that's a 

12 big deal and we're excited about the results, but 

13 it's nowhere near what we could be doing.

14 If fully deployed, our behavioral energy 

15 efficiency in just residential uses could save 10 

16 million metric tons of carbon dioxide emissions a 

17 year, every year, going forward. 

18 Now, we are just one company. The energy 

19 efficiency industry can do even more. For 

20 example, McKinsey and Company has conclude that 

21 U.S. consumers could save money through 

22 investments in energy efficiency and buildings 

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1 and appliances and approximately 710 to 870 

2 megatons of greenhouse gases over the next 20 

3 years. Indeed your own analysis that accompanied 

4 the Clean Power Plan showed that American 

5 families will save money by making our economy 

6 more efficient.

7 Of course to meet the requirements of the 

8 law you have to be sure that energy efficiency 

9 programs are actually reducing pollution, if 

10 utilities are going to use them to meet the 

11 standards you set. And I apologize for this but 

12 let me use some technical jargon real quickly 

13 just so you know exactly what I'm talking about 

14 here. 

15 It's at the inclusion of beyond the fence 

16 line measures and compliance options, such as 

17 behavioral energy efficiency requires robust 

18 evaluation, measurement and verification. 

19 Fortunately proven methods are available and the 

20 process can be reasonably implemented and 

21 replicated on a state by state basis as we at 

22 OPower have shown.

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1 In our (indiscernible)**1:45:07 

2 methodologies we use something called the 

3 randomized control trial approach. This is the 

4 gold standard in scientific studies, and indeed 

5 it's been endorsed by the DOE Uniform Methods 

6 Project and also the State and Local Energy 

7 Efficiency Action Network run by DOE as the 

8 preferred method for measuring and verifying 

9 behavioral efficiency programs.

10 We do that and we're doing it right now 

11 in 31 states across the country and it's been 

12 approved widely; the exact same thing.

13 Let me close by commenting directly on 

14 your proposal, which contains a number of 

15 positive aspects that I want to reinforce. 

16 First, and most important, as you know your 

17 proposal allows utilities to use beyond the fence 

18 line measures, including energy efficiency, to 

19 comply with the reduction targets. That's very 

20 important because it will lead to innovation in 

21 the energy sector and it will help utilities use 

22 the full suite of tools at their disposal to 

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1 reduce pollution.

2 Related to that, I appreciate the 

3 attention that you've given to behavioral energy 

4 efficiency. Thank you for that. 

5 I'm going to be submitting more formal 

6 comments and more complete technical comments 

7 addressing the questions that you ask in the 

8 proposal about (indiscernible)**1:46:20 practices 

9 and demonstrating that they are widespread and 

10 accepted across the country in a uniform way.

11 And finally, I hope that your final rule 

12 not only allows for projects started today to be 

13 used for compliance as your proposal recommends, 

14 but also that emissions reductions before 2020 

15 can be used for compliance. I believe that fully 

16 rewarding early action is key for jumpstarting 

17 probusiness investments.

18 Thank you for hosting this listening 

19 session. I'm proud to be able to talk with you 

20 about ways to fight climate change at the same 

21 time as saving consumers money, and I'm looking 

22 forward to further conversations about these 

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1 issues with you. Thanks.

2 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you, Mr. Caperton. 

3 Mr. Short.

4 MR. SHORT: I just want to make sure 

5 because last time it wasn't one, it started down 

6 the red side.

7 MS. DUNHAM: (Indiscernible.)**1:47:02.

8 MR. SHORT: Good morning and thanks for 

9 this opportunity. My name is Toby Short and I'm 

10 a director of federal governmental affairs for 

11 Duke Energy Corporation.

12 Duke Energy is the largest utility in the 

13 nation and provides regulated electricity service 

14 to 7.2 million homes and businesses located in 

15 six states in the Southeast and Midwest. These 

16 7.2 million homes and businesses represent a 

17 population of approximately 21 million people. 

18 We have invested around $9 billion in new 

19 efficient coal and gas plants over the past 

20 decade as we have transitioned our generation 

21 portfolio to a lower carbon footprint. These 

22 investments have reduced our carbon emissions 

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1 more than 20 percent from 2005 levels. 

2 Let me just reiterate that for one 

3 second. We've invested $9 billion and have 

4 lowered our carbon footprint by 20 percent from 

5 2005 levels already. 

6 I'm here today on behalf of these 21 

7 million people we serve to encourage the EPA to 

8 do two things. First, we ask that you extend the 

9 comment period on the Clean Power Plan by at 

10 least an additional 60 days so we and others can 

11 provide fact-based meaningful comments. This 

12 plan unprecedented in scope, it raises a 

13 tremendous number of highly complex issues 

14 regarding the way electricity will be generated 

15 in the future, and the complex nature of the plan 

16 requires states and utilities to evaluate and 

17 model hundreds, if not thousands of pieces of 

18 data in order to try and gain an understanding of 

19 the potential impacts on electric service. This 

20 impact is also unprecedented and it justifies an 

21 extension of the comment period.

22 In addition the proposed use of an 

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1 emissions rate goal applied at the state level 

2 requires close collaboration among utilities and 

3 state agencies to evaluate, and this takes time.

4 Based on our preliminary evaluations of 

5 the plan, Duke Energy has several significant 

6 areas of concern. While we will file formal 

7 comments as part of the rulemaking process, our 

8 second request is to ask the EPA to work directly 

9 with us and the utility sector on its proposed 

10 plan.

11 We have had past successes with such 

12 collaborations, including MATS and the recent 

13 316B Rule. We encourage EPA to be open to these 

14 requests, and Duke Energy is committed to 

15 providing candid fact-based comments on the 

16 proposal. Thanks.

17 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. 

18 MR. SHORT: Thank you.

19 MS. DUNHAM: All right. Let's see. Next 

20 I'd like to ask Thomas Easterly and Tarra 

21 Pascarosa to come to the table, please.

22 Nice to meet you. Please, when you're 

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1 ready.

2 MR. EASTERLY: Good morning. My name is 

3 Thomas Easterly and I am a commissioner of the 

4 Indiana Department of Environmental Management, 

5 also known as IDEM. I bring you greetings from 

6 Governor Pence of Indiana.

7 Indiana will be significantly impacted by 

8 the proposed 111D regulations for fossil fuel of 

9 electric generating units because we are the most 

10 manufacturing intensive state in the United 

11 States. With over 80 percent of our electricity 

12 currently produced by coal we'll have a 300 year 

13 supply of coal in our state. 

14 IDEM's mission is to protect Hoosiers in 

15 our environment. And examining how the proposed 

16 111D regulations further our mission, I've come 

17 to the conclusion that this proposal will cost 

18 significant harm to Hoosiers and actually most 

19 residents of the United States, without providing 

20 any measurable offsetting benefits. For these 

21 reasons, as well as a questionable legal basis 

22 for the proposal, I request that U.S. EPA 

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1 withdraw this proposal and work with us and other 

2 energy producing states to develop a balanced 

3 regulation that uses all of our fuels in the most 

4 efficient manner. 

5 In the long run a program focusing on the 

6 most efficient use of all of our resources and 

7 energy, including coal, will provide the most 

8 cost effective world-wide reductions in 

9 greenhouse gas emissions, allow people around the 

10 world to approach our standard of living, and 

11 allow development of an understanding of why the 

12 climate models have not predicted the over 15 

13 year long pause in significant warming that is 

14 currently being observed. That it's clear that 

15 global carbon dioxide concentrations are 

16 increasing and that urban areas and irrigation 

17 both increased measured average temperatures 

18 above those measured in similarly situated 

19 undeveloped natural areas.

20 What needs to be improved on is the 

21 understanding of the relative role of carbon 

22 dioxide concentrations in this puzzle.

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1 Chapter 5 of the 2011 National Academy of 

2 Science's report, America's Climate Choices, lays 

3 out the four goals driving the development of the 

4 proposed regulation. Limiting global mean 

5 temperature increases by limiting global 

6 atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations, by 

7 limiting greenhouse gas emissions including 

8 limiting U.S. emissions.

9 The report, while recommending that work 

10 to reduce emissions should commence, also 

11 identifies the following unanswered questions 

12 about the goals. What is a safe amount of 

13 climate change? When they say it depends on the 

14 risk associated with given temperature targets 

15 and decisions about willingness to tolerate those 

16 risks. 

17 How does greenhouse gas concentrations 

18 translate into global temperature change and 

19 other impacts? Well, that depends on the climate 

20 sensitivity and the strength of other forcing 

21 factors, including aerosols. 

22 How does a given level of emissions 

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1 translate into an atmospheric greenhouse gas 

2 concentration? That depends on the carbon cycle 

3 dynamics and the timing of emission reductions.

4 And then what is a reasonable share of 

5 U.S. emission reductions relative to global 

6 targets? That depends on political, economic, 

7 and ethical judgments. 

8 Now it is prudent to take no regrets 

9 actions to avoid potential future problems. 

10 However, this proposal is not a no regrets 

11 proposal. U.S. EPA predicts that this proposal 

12 will increase the cost of natural gas and the per 

13 kilowatt hour cost of residential electricity by 

14 around 10 percent in the next six years.

15 Our country already has too many 

16 completely preventable deaths from hypothermia 

17 and heat exhaustion every year because people 

18 cannot afford to pay their utility bills and 

19 eventually lose service. This serious human 

20 health problem will be exacerbated by the cost 

21 increases driven by the proposed regulation.

22 The most ironic impact of the proposed

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1 regulations is that they are likely to increase 

2 worldwide greenhouse gas emissions by decreasing 

3 the international competitiveness of U.S. 

4 businesses due to increased energy costs. 

5 Competitive businesses have been 

6 investing in cost effective energy savings 

7 activities for decades. Under this proposal the 

8 total cost of the products produced in the U.S. 

9 will need to increase, eroding our international 

10 competitiveness and resulting in the loss of U.S. 

11 Manufacturing jobs. 

12 When these businesses close U.S. 

13 emissions will decrease, but worldwide greenhouse 

14 gas emissions will increase as our businesses 

15 move to areas with less efficient and more carbon 

16 intensive energy supplies. 

17 I do applaud U.S. EPA for trying to make 

18 the most workable regulation to implement this 

19 misguided policy. But the fact that this 

20 misguided policy will harm Hoosiers and other 

21 people in our country while actually increasing 

22 the worldwide level of the very emissions it is 

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1 designed to decrease, compels me to ask you to 

2 withdraw this proposal. Thank you.

3 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Ms. 

4 Pascrosa.

5 MS. PASCAROSA-DUFF: Good morning. My 

6 name is Tarra Pascarosa-Duff, and I'm from 

7 Virginia Beach, Virginia. I'm here on behalf of 

8 my 22 month old son, Brady and my entire family. 

9 We want healthy air, water, and food for Brady 

10 today and for all of his tomorrows. 

11 All of this health factors stem to the 

12 carbon power plan. We must have clean air to 

13 contribute to the clean water and food in our 

14 communities.

15 In my community of Hampton Roads,

16 Virginia, we face several climate change related 

17 battles on a daily basis. Two of which are coal 

18 dust and sea level rise. We breath coal dust in 

19 on a regular basis from the nearby Norfolk 

20 Southern Terminal at Lambert's point.

21 The coal dust is detrimental to our 

22 health and is a leading cause in many health 

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1 ailments to include pediatric asthma, and adult 

2 asthma.

3 There are 158,500 cases of pediatric

4 asthma and over 540,000 cases of adult asthma in 

5 2013 in Virginia. Our nearby neighboring city, 

6 Richmond, Virginia is the number one asthmatic 

7 capital of the country.

8 Secondly, at Hampton Roads we are at risk 

9 to seal level rise. Only second in the country 

10 next to New Orleans. We do not need to 

11 experience a hurricane or a northeaster storm for 

12 Virginia Beach, Norfolk, or surrounding areas to 

13 experience severe flooding. We experience sea 

14 level rise during a full moon or just a high tide 

15 due to sea level rise.

16 Churches in our neighborhoods have to 

17 reschedule their actual services due to tide 

18 schedules. People have been flooded in the 

19 churches and unable to leave because of the sea 

20 level rise conditions in Norfolk; in the Gent 

21 area of Norfolk. 

22 The seas are rising due in part to 

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1 climate change, and we must have a plan moving 

2 forward. Curbing carbon pollution must be part 

3 of this plan so that we can slow down the process 

4 of sea level rise and climate change. Not only 

5 for our future but for the current present future 

6 of our children.

7 Children are particularly vulnerable to 

8 the health impacts of climate change. We have a 

9 moral obligation to act to protect our children 

10 now. Not just in the future, and to leave them a 

11 planet that's not damages by carbon pollution. 

12 I ask that the EPA reduce carbon dioxide 

13 emissions 40 percent below 2005 levels by 2020, 

14 for my son, Brady, and for all of the children.

15 Thank you very much, Tarra and Brady 

16 Duff.

17 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much.

18 MS. PASCAROSA-DUFF: Thank you. 

19 MS. DUNHAM: Okay. I'd like to ask that 

20 Linda Burchfiel and Karen Melton please come up 

21 to the table. Okay. When you're ready.

22 MS. BURCHFIEL: Linda Burchfiel. I 

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1 applaud the president for his leadership in 

2 acting on climate disruption and the EPA for 

3 working with stakeholders to draft this clean 

4 energy plan. This is a very important first 

5 step. While it's a good idea to let each state 

6 develop its own carbon reduction plan with its 

7 own mix of building blocks. The building blocks 

8 are not equal.

9 The plan needs to be restructured to make 

10 sure that the best compliance options are more 

11 attractive. Energy efficiency is the building 

12 block that needs to be incentivized. Benefits 

13 are many, including reduced energy use with all 

14 of its accompanying pollutants, as well as 

15 reduced energy cost for users. Less money spent 

16 on energy is money available to spend elsewhere, 

17 providing a boost to the economy. 

18 Energy efficiency programs from demand 

19 side reduction to building envelope improvement 

20 are inexpensive to implement and create jobs that 

21 cannot be outsourced.

22 Another strong compliance option is 

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1 development of renewable energy which will 

2 provide free energy for the states once the 

3 initial outlay is weighed.

4 One possible measure to further 

5 incentivize energy efficiency and renewables is 

6 to give states additional time to adjust on the 

7 condition that they are making steady progress 

8 toward adoption.

9 Another possible incentive would be to 

10 provide states with federal economic incentives. 

11 Federal money is available. Tax payer funds that 

12 currently support the oil and gas industry with 

13 subsidies, such as BLM Coal leases, generous

14 depreciation allowances, and other tax breaks 

15 could be redirected to states struggling to 

16 convert to renewable energy or to scale up energy 

17 efficiency programs.

18 States would have flexibility in the use 

19 of that money. Some states would direct funds 

20 towards weatherization, others would provide 

21 rebates to needy residents whose electricity 

22 rates had increased to pay for new renewable 

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1 generation.

2 One of the building blocks is far less 

3 attractive as we get more and more evidence about 

4 the damage that natural gas can cause. It's not 

5 as clean as we had thought. Natural gas may be 

6 necessary over the short term but it does not 

7 belong in the clean energy plan. 

8 First major problem is its contribution 

9 to greenhouse gases. It is true that when burned 

10 for power natural gas emits only half as much 

11 carbon as coal, but it's life cycle tells a 

12 different story. 

13 Beginning with extraction and continuing 

14 on through processing and transportation natural 

15 gas emits a lot of methane from leakage, thanks 

16 to modern measurement techniques we are better 

17 able to measure that leakage, have learned it's 

18 about one half to three times as much methane as 

19 we had estimated.

20 We already know that methane is a very 

21 potent greenhouse gas, far worse than carbon 

22 dioxide in the short term. 

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1 Second major problem is extractions. All 

2 of the easy natural gas has been depleted and the 

3 only economical way to get what's left is 

4 fracking. As mentioned above fracking is 

5 responsible for a lot of methane and I support 

6 EPA's efforts to control leakage. We don't want 

7 to jump out of the carbon pan and into the 

8 fracking fire. 

9 Another problem with encouraging 

10 inversion is that it will delay transition to 

11 renewable energy. In fact the EPA's own 

12 regulatory impact analysis predicts that the rule 

13 would push us in the wrong direction, create an 

14 immediate surge in gas fired power plants. The 

15 plan needs to be reworked so that states have 

16 more incentive to move forward to adopt energy 

17 efficiency and clean energy programs. The sooner 

18 they get started the better off they and our 

19 environment will be.

20 Again, I salute the president and the EPA 

21 for making a good start and the environmental 

22 community will support your efforts to strength 

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1 the Clean Power Plan.

2 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Ms. 

3 Melton.

4 MS. MELTON: My name is Karen, with a K, 

5 Melton, M-E-L-T-O-N, from Philadelphia. And I am 

6 testifying as a board member of the Chester 

7 County Citizens for Climate Protection, a 501C3 

8 organization dedicated to public outreach and 

9 education on climate change.

10 This hearing, like many others, is about 

11 how much loss of life and health and natural 

12 resources we are prepared to trade off so that 

13 fossil fuel industries can continue to treat air 

14 and water life free sewers. This question gets 

15 asked across a broad range of pollutants

16 generated by power plants from nitrous oxides, 

17 VOCs and sulfur dioxides to arsenic, mercury, and 

18 selenium. 

19 Today we talk about Co2. I would like to 

20 briefly respond to an argument that gets made 

21 repeatedly by industry that coal is a cheap 

22 energy source. Coal certainly is a cheap energy 

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1 source if we only look at what it costs to dig it 

2 or blow it up out of the ground and deliver it to 

3 the power plant, which is the cost we see on our 

4 electric bills.

5 But if we factor in the external costs 

6 some studies estimate it would be two to three 

7 times as expensive. To mention just a few 

8 examples, in the estimated 250,000 coal miners 

9 have died from black lung disease. Ten thousand 

10 just in the last decade. Three times as many 

11 suffer life-long respiratory problems.

12 The black lung benefits program that is 

13 supposed to be paid for by the coal industry is 

14 reported to have borrowed 8.7 billion from the 

15 Federal Treasury so far, and that is expected to 

16 increase to 68 billion by 2040. 

17 And the MIT study estimated there are 

18 200,000 early deaths each year in the U.S. due to 

19 air pollution, with 52,000 associated with power 

20 generation. 

21 People in Appalachia, where mountain top 

22 removing coal mining occurs, have a 58 percent 

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1 higher cancer rate, and 42 percent higher birth 

2 defect rate, with public health costs estimated 

3 somewhere around 75 billion per year.

4 These are all costs of coal that don't 

5 show up on electric bills, but we are paying them 

6 nonetheless. And we haven't mentioned the nearly 

7 incalculable costs of climate change. Had we 

8 been paying the true cost of energy, efficiency 

9 would be built into every building and product we 

10 use. Devices and places to live would compete 

11 based on their efficiency. 

12 Instead a recent ranking of the world's 

13 16 largest economies for energy efficiency, put 

14 the U.S. at number 13. 

15 Despite all these costs, we also know 

16 that air quality in the U.S. has improved 

17 significantly and continues to improve. We have 

18 come a long way from the days when Pittsburg 

19 looked like Beijing does today as a result of air 

20 quality standards put in place by the EPA and 

21 implemented by the states.

22 I assume the air quality, like Beijing is 

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1 what people who want to defund the EPA consider 

2 the good old days.

3 The deaths associated with power plant 

4 pollution have dropped. Sulfur dioxide pollution

5 is down, nitrous oxides are down as a result of 

6 increased use of scrubbers and the retirement of 

7 coal plants. So EPA, you have made a huge 

8 difference with some major power plant 

9 pollutants, and the regulations responsible for 

10 these improvements as this one is, we're all 

11 predicted to, by industry, to cause economic 

12 Armageddon, which has not occurred.

13 I want to thank you so much for the work 

14 you did last year with the Tier 3 Vehicle 

15 Emission and Fuel Standards, and the regulation

16 of toxic discharges into waterways by coal fired 

17 power plants. You can probably guess that I wish 

18 you had gone much further with this Clean Power 

19 Plan, but I assume it is the most you consider 

20 feasible right now.

21 Please continue pursuing your terrorist 

22 plot to improve air and water quality and to 

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1 stabilize our climate. I see it as a good 

2 counter measure to the fossil fuel industries 

3 terrorist plot to reduce population.

4 In a few years we need to be back here 

5 for a hearing on increasing the state targets. 

6 Thank you.

7 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Next 

8 I'd like to ask Jack Sears to come to the table, 

9 and then we may take another 10 minute break 

10 after Mr. Sears speaks.

11 MR. SEARS: Good morning. My name is 

12 Jack Sears. I'm a rising sophomore majoring in 

13 biology and public health at Colby College, and 

14 I'm from Potomac, Maryland.

15 Climate change is the most pressing issue 

16 facing my generation and generations to come, and 

17 power plants are one of the largest contributors 

18 to this problem. This is why EPA's new rules to 

19 limit carbon pollution from power plants are so 

20 important and are a great first step in combating 

21 climate change.

22 The young people of America are committed 

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1 to the environment and we are more than ready to 

2 let our voices be heard. We proved this at the 

3 XL Dissent protest earlier this year and will 

4 again this fall in New York at the People's 

5 Climate March. 

6 We recognize that climate change is no 

7 longer a far off issue that might potentially 

8 have implications on our lives, but that the 

9 impacts of our changes to the Earth's nutrient 

10 cycles and greenhouse effect are happening here, 

11 they're happening now, and they're affecting

12 every single American.

13 Here on the east coast climate change is 

14 causing sea level rise that is encroaching on our 

15 shores and making storm surges much worse. 

16 Hurricanes and storms such as Sandy serve as a 

17 healthy reminder of the impact that climate 

18 change can have.

19 While Sandy did not directly affect me, I 

20 have seen the power and damage that such storms 

21 can cause. I got my first lesson in this subject 

22 when I was seven years old. I still remember 

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1 seeing my house, or what was left of it, for the 

2 first time after Hurricane Isabel. The 123 foot 

3 tree fell across our garage crushing a car, then 

4 it continued its fall splitting my sister's bed 

5 in two, then through my parent's headboard before 

6 coming to rest, having crushed half of my house 

7 and what could have been my entire family.

8 I have no words to describe how lucky I 

9 am that my parents had the foresight to evacuate 

10 before the hurricane. Without it, I would be the 

11 only surviving member of my family. 

12 I sit here in front of you today to 

13 remind you that while these storms have a hefty 

14 economic price tag, certain losses go beyond 

15 damaged property. The impacts of these storms

16 cannot be overstated and if we want to avoid more 

17 storms like this we must act on climate change, 

18 and act now.

19 The changes to our climate have an impact 

20 on our infrastructure, economy, and national 

21 security. But most importantly they impact the 

22 day to day lives of all Americans, from those 

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1 affected by stronger storms on the east coast, to 

2 more severe droughts in the Midwest and larger 

3 fires on the west coast.

4 It's well understood that one of the 

5 largest contributors to climate change is carbon 

6 pollution and power plants are the number one 

7 source of carbon pollution in the United States, 

8 accounting for 40 percent of all emissions. This 

9 is why EPA's new power plant rules to limit 

10 carbon emissions are so important.

11 These rules are a great first step in 

12 combating climate change, and losses both 

13 economic and human that accompany it. Through 

14 these rules we as a country will make great 

15 progress towards achieving a cleaner energy 

16 future for the benefit of generations to come. 

17 We are already make great strides.

18 Wind energy is already producing enough 

19 electricity to power 15 million homes, and in 

20 2013 a building went solar every four minutes. 

21 This is a fantastic opportunity, not only to cut 

22 back on greenhouse gas emissions but to invest in 

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1 clean renewal energy sources for the benefit of 

2 our economy and energy security. 

3 My generation agrees, climate change is 

4 the most important issue of our time. These 

5 rules are exactly what we need to begin 

6 addressing it, and there's no better time than 

7 right not to act on climate change. I do not 

8 need another tree to fall through my house to 

9 remind me of the power of climate change. I 

10 implore the EPA to finalize the Clean Power Plan. 

11 Thank you.

12 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much.

13 Okay. We're going to take about a 10 

14 minute break now. We'll reconvene in a couple 

15 minutes. Thanks. 

16 (Recess from 11:11 a.m. until 11:27 a.m.)

17 MS. DUNHAM: Okay. We're going to get 

18 back started again. And we have two folks I'll 

19 call to the table now, Jamie Wise and Charles 

20 Yoder. If you could join us at the table, 

21 please?

22 Ms. Wise, go ahead.

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1 MS. WISE: All right. Good morning, and 

2 thanks for this opportunity. I'm here 

3 representing Ormat Technologies an energy 

4 technology company headquartered in Reno, Nevada, 

5 and they are also a member of the Alliance for 

6 Industrial Efficiency.

7 In addition to their geothermal energy 

8 applications, Ormat provides a waste heat to 

9 power technology most commonly applied on natural 

10 gas pipeline compressors.

11 Ormat has installed over 100 megawatts of 

12 clean electricity to the grid across 19 gas

13 pipeline compressor stations in North America 

14 alone. 

15 This morning I will address the futures 

16 of the Clean Power Plan draft that relate to 

17 waste heat to power, also known as waste heat 

18 recovery.

19 First, I commend EPA for accommodating 

20 industrial efficiency in the draft plan. EPA 

21 provides states a lot of flexibility to define 

22 their own carbon reduction pathways. We're glad

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1 to see that both renewable energy and industrial 

2 efficiency components that are already included 

3 and many stay renewable in energy efficiency 

4 portfolio standards will be accommodated under 

5 the draft plan.

6 However, the draft plan and its 

7 supporting documents do not include any explicit 

8 mention or discussion of waste heat recovery or 

9 waste heat to power. This is unfortunate because 

10 waste heat to power can be an extremely important 

11 tool for states to rely on when crafting their 

12 111D compliance plans.

13 Waste heat to power applications use 

14 recovered heat and steam emitted from many types 

15 of high energy industrial processes to generate 

16 electricity. Because the process fuel is simply 

17 waste steam there are zero fuel inputs and zero 

18 fuel costs. 

19 WHP incurs zero additional emissions, 

20 carbon or otherwise. Many WHP applications 

21 including all of Ormat's pipeline units can 

22 continue operating and delivering power in the 

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1 event of a grid adage. This is an extremely 

2 important contribution to overall system 

3 reliability at a time when the U.S. electric grid 

4 grows increasingly vulnerable to cyber threats 

5 and extreme weather driven by climate change.

6 The absence of any explicit discussion of 

7 waste heat to power in the draft rule means that 

8 states will have to read between the lines to 

9 determine whether waste heat to power is an 

10 acceptable compliance pathway. 

11 States are also left wondering how waste 

12 heat to power, if it is a compliance pathway, 

13 should be accounted for. Is it a type of energy 

14 efficiency or a type of zero carbon generation? 

15 EPA should amend the draft rule to 

16 explicitly call out waste heat to power as an 

17 example of a technology states can use to reduce 

18 their average Co2 intensity. 

19 Furthermore EPA should establish that 

20 waste heat to power can contribute to Co2 savings 

21 under building block three, the alternative power 

22 generation building block.

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1 We know that in existing renewable 

2 portfolio standards in states, some states treat 

3 waste heat to power as a type of energy 

4 efficiency, and some treat it as a type of power 

5 generation. For the purposes of the 111D Rule 

6 waste heat to power is unequivocally a type of 

7 power generation. 

8 While WHP does increase the energy 

9 productivity of an industrial process, its 

10 purpose is to generate emission free electricity. 

11 Every megawatt hour of power generated from a WHP 

12 unit is a zero emission megawatt hour. It should 

13 be counted as the same as a megawatt hour 

14 generated from solar, wind, or geothermal. 

15 Thank you for your attention to this 

16 important issue.

17 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Mr. 

18 Yoder.

19 MR. YODER: My name is Charles C. Yoder, 

20 spelled Y-O-D-E-R. I'm testifying for myself. 

21 I want to start by observing that in my 

22 view the proposed reg is economically 

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1 inefficient, or at least suboptimal in terms of 

2 the efficiency. Far more efficient would be a 

3 price or a tax on carbon. But I also recognize 

4 that that method is beyond EPA's grasp.

5 So I commend you for coming up with an 

6 alternative to go towards our goal, which is 

7 reduced carbon emissions.

8 I'm concerned that the flexibility built 

9 into the rule, i.e. let the states decide on how 

10 they are going to implement their pollution

11 reduction goals can create problems. And I offer 

12 as an analogy, Maryland. I live in Baltimore, 

13 Maryland. Has an enacted a storm water utility 

14 fee designed to provide local jurisdictions with 

15 a mechanism for controlling run-off pollution.

16 Some of the counties -- the Maryland 

17 legislation gives the counties the flexibility to 

18 decide how they will achieve the goal. Some of 

19 the counties will probably meet their goals and 

20 achieve the outcome desired, reduced storm water 

21 pollution. 

22 But others, well let's just say that 

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1 pollution control is not very high on the agenda 

2 of their elected decision makers. And I think 

3 that we can expect, at best, a mixed result in 

4 terms of the outcome. 

5 So I offer this analogy as a caution 

6 because it's outcomes, not process, that are 

7 important here. And if the individual 

8 jurisdictions are going to have the authority and 

9 the responsibility for achieving the goals 

10 there's going to have to be an enforcement 

11 mechanism with teeth because we can expect some 

12 of the jurisdictions to be less than enthusiastic 

13 about pursuing this goal.

14 And then my last point, or maybe next to 

15 the last point, will be that these regs, even if 

16 successful in every aspect, even if they achieve

17 the goals that you intend and are successfully 

18 implemented, are not really going to be -- are 

19 not really going to achieve the amount of carbon 

20 reduction that we will need if we are going to 

21 have a 21st Century, a 22nd Century climate that 

22 is conducive to human prosperity and health and 

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1 good life. 

2 So, while I commend EPA for taking the 

3 steps, and I wish you well in implementing them, 

4 I want you to remember that this is just a start 

5 of a journey. It's not the finish.

6 And then the last point I would make 

7 given that I've still got a little time, is that 

8 I live in Baltimore. And Baltimore has one of 

9 the, if not the highest rate of air pollution 

10 related respiratory disease in the country. Part 

11 of that is due to coal fired generating plants, 

12 and ideally they will have state of the art 

13 pollution control before these regs ever become 

14 effective. But if not, I hope they affect that.

15 But I'd also urge EPA to look for other 

16 ways to reduce air pollution and transportation 

17 is an important one. And transportation --

18 Baltimore is a nonattainment area. So there's 

19 two of them there; there's a hook. And Baltimore 

20 needs to reform its transportation, as does much 

21 of the country. And that could even get you into 

22 land use decisions because land use decisions 

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1 drive transportation. 

2 And at that, I'll end.

3 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Thank 

4 you to both of you.

5 Okay. I'd like to ask Julian Boggs and 

6 Shelly Vinyard to come to the table, please. All 

7 right. Mr. Boggs, when you're ready.

8 MR. BOGGS: Thank you. My name is Julian 

9 Boggs. That's B-O-G-G-S. I'm the Federal Global 

10 Warming Program Director with Environment 

11 America. Our executive director, Margie Hall, 

12 spoke yesterday on behalf of Environment America, 

13 our state affiliates and our members and 

14 activists. So I wanted to use my time here today 

15 to tell you about why I personally care about 

16 climate change and why the Clean Power Plan is so 

17 important to me and such an opportunity.

18 I'm from Kentucky, and I mention that 

19 because it's -- well, Kentuckians are proud folk 

20 and we mention it usually the first chance we 

21 get. And it's also a big part of why I'm an 

22 environmentalist. 

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1 When I think back to my formative years 

2 growing up, the experiences that shaped my values 

3 and my memories, they are of hunting for crawdads 

4 in the creek by my house with my friends, hiking 

5 in the woods outside of town, exploring the 

6 bluffs and outcrops of Kentucky's great places, 

7 Red River Gorge, the Pinnacles near our town. 

8 Again, I'm from Berea, which is right on the 

9 foothills of the Appalachian Mountains. The 

10 Bluegrass Region meets the knobs. 

11 And Kentucky is a really beautiful state 

12 and I think a lot of -- in my experience many of 

13 my neighbors and friends and family had shared 

14 those same experiences growing up and shaped 

15 their values as well. 

16 And you hear a lot that we are a coal 

17 state. And I think, you know, my home state 

18 senator may have testified here earlier today and 

19 I'm sure he said similar things. And it's true, 

20 we are a coal state and you can see that all 

21 around you when you take the Hal Rogers Parkway 

22 out to DP String, (phonetic) Kentucky and you can 

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1 see the evidence all around you, whether the 

2 evidence that you can see, the tailings and the 

3 deforested areas, the clear cuts. And you can 

4 also see the evidence by what's not there; the 

5 mountains that were there 10 years ago but are 

6 completely flat now and maybe there's a strip 

7 mall on them now.

8 And you can also see, though, Kentucky's 

9 spirit of self-reliance. And I think this is a 

10 really important thing. All throughout Easter 

11 Kentucky folks invest in their gardens and corn 

12 and tomatoes and beans. Not because they're 

13 going to sell them to the farmer's market at 10 

14 buck a pound, but because they're going to eat 

15 them when they're ripe and actually caring for 

16 self and being self-reliant is a huge source of 

17 pride for many Kentuckians.

18 And I think that is why folks in my home 

19 town in Berea, Kentucky were so excited when our 

20 local utility invested in 240 panels on a very 

21 small solar farm right side out of town. And you 

22 can see people light up when they talk about it 

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1 now. In part because they're proud that our town 

2 has taken this sustainable action and they're 

3 proud that we're doing it locally, that we're in 

4 charge of it. We are taking our future into our 

5 own hands. 

6 And I think that's an incredibly 

7 important piece of the Clean Power Plan, that it 

8 empowers states and communities, ultimately, to 

9 take their future into their own hands, to build 

10 a cleaner better future for their children for 

11 future generations by investing in solar and wind 

12 and energy efficiency. 

13 And to me, this is one of the most 

14 exciting pieces of the Clean Power Plan. The 

15 solar in my hometown is very very small relative 

16 to what we consume every day for our electricity. 

17 Yet at the same time, America, with a little bit 

18 bigger nudge is on the cusp of something really 

19 great and really big. Wind energy now generates 

20 enough electricity every year to power 15 million 

21 homes. We're not putting a new solar system in 

22 America every four minutes. That's a U.S. home 

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1 or business going solar every four minutes.

2 And if you give us the tools, across the 

3 country, even in coal Kentucky, we can go further 

4 and faster the more and more solar we install, 

5 the more workers we train, the more investment we 

6 leverage, the more our supply chain scales up.

7 So that's why I support the Clean Power 

8 Plan and specifically the piece of the Clean 

9 Power Plan that enables -- allows states and 

10 allows communities to reduce their carbon 

11 pollution from power plants by investing in 

12 renewable energy, investing in solar, investing 

13 in energy efficiency.

14 I thank you so much for your time today.

15 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Ms. 

16 Vinyard.

17 MS VINYARD: Hi. My name is Shelly 

18 Vinyard. I am the Midwest Regional Director with 

19 Environment America. 

20 I'm testifying today in strong support of 

21 the Clean Power Plan and I want to talk about why 

22 the plan is important for the Midwest. But first 

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1 I'm going to talk about why it matters to me 

2 personally.

3 So I was born and raised in a small town 

4 in south Texas called Floresville. That's about 

5 45 minutes south of San Antonio and has about 

6 5,000 people. And like many small towns in Texas 

7 it centers around farming and ranching. And one 

8 of the crops that distinguishes it from other 

9 towns in Texas is the peanut.

10 The peanut has been central to 

11 Floresville's identity for nearly 100 years. So 

12 much so that we have a huge celebration every 

13 year in October called the Peanut Festival.

14 Growing up I looked forward to going to 

15 the Peanut Festival every year. Around that time 

16 all the school children got to go on a field trip 

17 to one of the local peanut farms. We spent time

18 in class growing our own peanut plants and 

19 learning about the climate it requires to grow 

20 them. And my personal favorite part was that we 

21 got to decorate our bikes and ourselves in peanut 

22 themed regalia and march in the kid's parade. 

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1 And so it was just an integral part of my 

2 childhood and many of my friends' childhoods 

3 across the town.

4 Sadly over the last 15 years climate 

5 change has changed the landscape in Floresville 

6 and the peanut is now an endangered crop in the 

7 county. Only one peanut farm still exists, and 

8 the peanut is quite sensitive to weather changes 

9 and Floresville has actually had two so-called 

10 100 year floods since 1998. And is right now in 

11 one of the worst droughts in 500 years. One that 

12 has lasted for four years.

13 It's sad to me to think that the entire 

14 identity of our town is changing because of 

15 climate changes impacts. Kids don't take field 

16 trips to peanut farms anymore, and locally grown 

17 peanuts are now a rarity. And the Peanut 

18 Festival itself is now more of a celebration of 

19 our history than it is of our current 

20 agricultural success.

21 The thing that frustrates me is that 

22 while climate changes effects are quite clear in 

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1 Floresville, Texas is home to two of the top five 

2 most carbon polluting coal fired power plants in 

3 the country. And I decided to dedicate my career 

4 to working environmental issues in part to help 

5 change that, which is why I'm so excited about 

6 the Clean Power Plan.

7 Now I work to organize the public around 

8 issues like climate change in the Midwest. And 

9 when I talk to people there, they too are 

10 concerns. The Great Lakes which are central to 

11 so many of the states in the Midwest are changing 

12 with the climate.

13 The Dead Zone in Lake Erie is growing. 

14 Algae blooms are increasing. And the temperature 

15 in the water is warming, effecting the fish and 

16 wildlife populations that depend on the Great 

17 Lakes ecosystem. 

18 But also in the Midwest I've gotten a 

19 glimpse of what's possible when we all work 

20 together to tackle one of the world's most 

21 pressing environmental issues. In Minnesota the 

22 state has become a national leader in clean 

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1 energy development and use. And Governor Dayton 

2 has pledged three times in the last year to make 

3 the state completely carbon free.

4 Global warming is affecting us all in 

5 Texas, in the Midwest, and across the country. 

6 And I believe we have an imperative to act on it 

7 now. 

8 The proposed Clean Power Plan is another 

9 example of what is possible and what we can 

10 accomplish together to solve this problem. And I 

11 hope the EPA will move as quickly as possible to 

12 finalize the plan. 

13 So thank you very much for your time.

14 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Now 

15 I'd like to ask Senator Sanders to come to the 

16 table. 

17 MR. SANDERS: Thank you very much for 

18 allowing me to say a few words. I don't know how 

19 you do it here. In the Senate we submit written 

20 statements for the record. Is that okay?

21 MS. DUNHAM: Yes, it is. Thank you.

22 MR. SANDERS: All right. So I'd like to 

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1 serve what I have here. I thank you for allowing 

2 me to say a few words.

3 One of the embarrassments that I have as 

4 a United States Senator is that while the 

5 scientific community is almost unanimous in 

6 understanding that climate change is real, that 

7 climate change is significantly caused by human 

8 activity, that climate change is already causing 

9 devastating problems in our country and 

10 throughout the world in terms of floods and 

11 drought and we're seeing the forest fires in 

12 unprecedented levels, and forest fires in the 

13 western part of our country in terms of extreme 

14 weather disturbances, in terms of rising sea 

15 levels and threatening major American cities and 

16 countries all over the world, despite all of the 

17 evidence, it is embarrassing to me to tell you 

18 the truth, that there are many members, many 

19 members of the United States Congress heavily 

20 influenced, I believe, by the fossil fuel 

21 industry who refuse to recognize science. 

22 And while it is fine that people disagree 

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1 on any and every issue, we should be a people 

2 that listens to scientists and develop public 

3 policy from that scientific evidence.

4 I welcome the EPA's efforts to begin -- I 

5 should also mention to you that I represent the 

6 State of Vermont; a state which is one of the 

7 most beautiful states in the country; a state 

8 that is strongly supportive of environmental 

9 efforts to protect our environment and 

10 understands that there will be horrendous changes 

11 in our country and in the State of Vermont unless 

12 we cut carbon emissions and transform our energy 

13 system.

14 There is some studies that suggest, 

15 according to the U.S. National Climate Assessment

16 released in May, the average global temperature 

17 has increased by more than 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit

18 between 1980 and 2012, and temperatures in 

19 Vermont and New England have increased at least 

20 two and a half degrees Fahrenheit just in the 

21 last 30 years. I mean, this is really 

22 extraordinary.

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1 By the year 2100 New England could be as 

2 much as 10 degrees hotter, and there are some 

3 suggestions out there, some studies that suggest 

4 that the climate of the State of Vermont, the 

5 temperature of the State of Vermont could be 

6 where Georgia is now by the year 2090. I mean, 

7 that's just hard to imagine. 

8 Vermont celebrates and enjoys four 

9 beautiful seasons. Our agriculture is based on 

10 four beautiful seasons. A lot of our economy is 

11 based on four different seasons, and the idea 

12 that would be Georgia's temperature in the year

13 2090 is unthinkable.

14 The EPA's proposed carbon pollution 

15 standards will address to a significant degree, 

16 carbon pollution from power plants by setting 

17 state by state carbon pollution limits. By 2030 

18 the standards are expected to reduce U.S. power 

19 plant carbon pollution by 30 percent compared to 

20 2005 levels. That's equivalent to the annual 

21 emissions from more than 150 million cars, or 

22 almost two-thirds of the nation's passenger 

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1 vehicles, or the annual emissions from powering 

2 65 million homes, over half the homes in America.

3 The EPA's proposal creates specific 

4 carbon pollution targets for each state, 

5 something that I strongly support. But every 

6 state has broad flexibility to design a plan that 

7 fits its own circumstances using a mix of energy 

8 efficiency, renewable energy, improving the 

9 efficiency of existing plants and other 

10 strategies. 

11 What I can tell you is in a cold weather 

12 state like Vermont we have already made 

13 significant progress in weatherizing many, many, 

14 many thousands of homes. And you know what the 

15 result of that has been? In Rutland County, for 

16 example, there has been a federally funded 

17 project which will result in 1,000 homes being 

18 weatherized. The result of that is a 32 percent 

19 reduction in the use of fossil fuel. The result 

20 of that is significant reductions in fuel costs 

21 for customers, something that they appreciate 

22 very much, and the result of that is the creating 

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1 of significant numbers of jobs.

2 So I think if we are serious, obviously 

3 the proposal that is coming from the EPA is a 

4 very important step forward. But in addition to 

5 that we need to invest very heavily in energy 

6 efficiency and in weatherization. There are 

7 millions of homes throughout this country that 

8 could see a significant reduction in their carbon 

9 emissions if people had the resources to 

10 weatherize. And when we do that we also create 

11 many, many good paying jobs. 

12 You have heard testimony, no doubt, about 

13 the potential of wind, the potential of solar, 

14 the potential of geothermal, the potential in New 

15 England, of bio mass. 

16 The bottom line is that if we, as a 

17 nation, are going to lead the world in addressing 

18 the major planetary crisis that we face, which is 

19 global warming, in my view we have to completely 

20 transform our energy system away from fossil fuel 

21 into energy efficiency, into weatherization, and 

22 into such sustainable energies as wind, solar, 

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1 goes thermal bio mass, and other technologies 

2 which will only improve and expand as we do more 

3 research in those area. 

4 I think if we do not address this crisis 

5 today our children and our grandchildren will 

6 look back on this period and we will be judged by 

7 history in an extremely negative way. The 

8 scientists tell us we have a window, not a very 

9 long window, a reasonable short period of time in 

10 order to get this right. And I believe that if 

11 our country goes forward with proposals coming 

12 out of the EPA today and much more, we can lead 

13 the world and set an example for China, India, 

14 Russia, and other countries. 

15 And by the way when we do that, we can 

16 create significant numbers of jobs. 

17 Now I will tell you frankly that I think 

18 the EPA's proposal is a good start. In my view 

19 we have to go further. Senator Barbara Boxer and 

20 I have legislation which calls for a carbon tax, 

21 which is something that I think we desperately 

22 need.

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1 So I want to applaud the EPA for coming 

2 up with its standards, for giving states 

3 flexibility in addressing the issue. But this is 

4 a planetary crisis and we have got to move and 

5 move aggressively and move as quickly as we 

6 possibly can. So thank you very much for the

7 opportunity and I will leave you with the full 

8 statement.

9 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much.

10 MR. SANDERS: Thank you. Thanks very 

11 much.

12 MS. DUNHAM: Thank you very much. Okay. 

13 I think that concludes our morning session. We 

14 will now take a lunch break and the hearing will 

15 reconvene this afternoon at 1:00. So, thank you 

16 all. 

17 (Lunch break from 11:53 a.m. until 1:02 

18 p.m.)

19 MR. PAGE: We want to welcome everybody. 

20 Thank you for coming to this hearing on the 

21 proposed carbon pollution plan and the proposed 

22 carbon pollution standards for modified and 

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1 reconstructed power plants. My name is Steve 

2 Page and I'm the Director of the Office of Air 

3 Quality Planning and Standards in North Carolina, 

4 associated with the Office of Air and Radiation, 

5 the office that was responsible for producing the 

6 proposal. 

7 And I've got two co-chairs. Our panel of 

8 chairs with me, and I'm going to ask them to 

9 introduce themselves.

10 MR. SOLOMON: My name is David Solomon. 

11 I also work for the Office of Air Quality 

12 Planning and Standards.

13 MR. SHERRY: And my name is Chris Sherry. 

14 I'm in the Office of Atmospheric Programs. 

15 MR. PAGE: All righty. We're ready to 

16 get started. I would like to read a prepared 

17 statement that we use to begin every one of our 

18 sessions. First of all it gives a little bit of 

19 context to the hearing today, and also provides 

20 some guidelines to make sure that the hearing 

21 proceeds smoothly. So I'll begin with that. And 

22 then we'll look forward to taking comments. 

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1 We're here today to listen to your 

2 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

3 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

4 of these proposed rules on June 2nd, 2014. 

5 Power plants are the largest source of 

6 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

7 roughly one third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

8 emissions.

9 The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 

10 Power Plan for existing power plants. The rule 

11 consists of two main parts, state specific goals 

12 to lower carbon pollution from power plants, and 

13 guidelines to help states develop their plans for 

14 meeting the goals. 

15 The proposal gives states flexibility in 

16 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

17 choose what goes into their plans and show how 

18 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

19 their goals by 2030. 

20 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

21 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

22 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

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1 set emission limits for two groups of power 

2 plants, those that make physical or operational 

3 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

4 achievable hourly rate of emissions, and those 

5 that replace components to such an extent that 

6 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

7 capital cost of an entirely new comparable 

8 facility.

9 If you want more details on either of 

10 those proposed rules, there are fact sheets

11 available near the registration desk.

12 Today's hearing is one of four public 

13 hearings EPA is holding across the country this 

14 week on the two proposed rules. We have had 

15 tremendous interest in each of the hearings. We 

16 have many people signed up to speak here today 

17 and we want to hear from all of you. So before 

18 we get started I'll go through a few ground rules

19 that will help make the hearings run smoothly.

20 First, please be sure that you've checked 

21 in at the registration desk, even if you're 

22 planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 

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1 speak online or by phone but haven't told us that 

2 you're here please step out to the registration

3 desk and let the EPA staff know that you've 

4 arrived.

5 Second, if you are a speaker you were 

6 given a room letter when you checked in. Room A 

7 or B. This is Room A. If you're not in the 

8 right room now is a good time to switch. 

9 All right. This is how we will proceed 

10 with today's hearing. I will call the speakers 

11 up in pairs. When your name is called please 

12 come to the table at the front of the room, right 

13 in front of us. When I call on you to speak 

14 please state your name and spell it for the court 

15 reporter. 

16 Your comments will be transcribed and 

17 included in the record of comments on the 

18 proposed rule. Each speaker will have five 

19 minutes to give comments. We have a light to 

20 help you know how much time you have left to 

21 speak. When the light turns from green to yellow 

22 that means you have one minute remaining. When 

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1 it turns red that's a signal to wrap up your 

2 testimony. 

3 The light will flash red and beep when 

4 you have spoken for five minutes and it is time 

5 to stop. 

6 When you're finished speaking please 

7 remain at the table until the person next to you 

8 has completed his or her testimony. We are here 

9 to listen to you today, however a panel member 

10 may ask you questions to clarify comments that 

11 you make or ask you to submit material for the 

12 record that you may have brought with you.

13 After the two speakers have spoken I will 

14 then call up the next pair of speakers, and so 

15 on. If you've brought a written copy you can 

16 either give it to us or you can drop it off at 

17 the desk in the front before you leave today. 

18 Because of the large number of people who have 

19 signed up to speak today, and to be fair to 

20 everyone, we are going to strictly enforce the 

21 five minute limit.

22 If you have additional comments you want 

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1 to make you can submit them in writing. And let 

2 me assure you that EPA gives just as much 

3 consideration to comments we receive in writing 

4 as we do to comments received at public hearings 

5 like this one. So if you have more that you 

6 would like to say, please submit it. Your 

7 comments will be reviewed.

8 There's still plenty of time to get 

9 written comments in. There are comment cards 

10 available at the registration desk where you came 

11 in. Comments must be received by October 16th, 

12 2014. We'll put any written comments submitted 

13 today in the official docket for the proposed 

14 ruling. 

15 Instructions for submitting written 

16 comments in other ways are available at the 

17 materials table near the registration desk.

18 We are scheduled to go until 8:00 

19 tonight. We'll take our break probably around 

20 the 5:00 p.m. time frame so folks can get some 

21 food. In addition, depending on the flow of the 

22 speakers we may take some additional breaks as 

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1 the day goes on, but we'll keep you posted about 

2 that.

3 If you have any questions about this 

4 hearing or any aspect of the hearing please see 

5 the staff at the registration desk and someone 

6 will try to help you.

7 Finally, I want to ask each of you to 

8 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

9 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

10 views in the audience and we want to hear from 

11 all of them. 

12 So that everyone can be heard we ask that 

13 everyone listen quietly. Even applause can slow 

14 things down and we want to hear from everyone who 

15 is signed up to speak. 

16 Thank you again for taking the time today 

17 to share your comments on EPA's proposed rules. 

18 Let's get started.

19 The first speakers that are signed up for 

20 this afternoon are Tom Carlson and Zabrina 

21 Arnovitz. Very good. And again, a reminder, 

22 please spell your name for the court reporter, 

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1 and if I have mangled a pronunciation I would 

2 appreciate being corrected so we know. All 

3 right? 

4 Mr. Carlson, your first up.

5 MR. CARLSON: Sure thing. 

6 MR. PAGE: Uh-huh.

7 MR. CARLSON: Good afternoon. My name is 

8 Tom Carlson, and that's spelled T-O-M C-A-R-L-S9 O-N. 

10 I am the Government Affairs Policy 

11 Associate with Advanced Energy Economy. AEE is a 

12 national association of businesses making the 

13 energy we use secure, clean, and affordable. AEE 

14 also leads a sate coalition consisting of 15 

15 partner organizations active in 23 states across 

16 the country and representing more than 1,000 

17 companies and organizations. And just to let you 

18 know I'm going to be speaking relatively quickly 

19 to get the comments in. So forgive me for that.

20 But that being said, AEE strongly 

21 supports EPA's draft rule for reducing carbon 

22 emissions from electric power plants under 

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1 Section 111D of the Clean Air Act, also known as 

2 the Clean Power Plan.

3 At the same time AEE sees a number of 

4 ways this proposal could be improved. The final 

5 rule should build on its solid foundation by 

6 strengthening the targets set for advanced energy 

7 technologies, allowing periodic review of targets 

8 to reflect technological progress and rewarding

9 early use of these technologies. 

10 We also ask that EPA specifically 

11 recognizes compliance options. All 40 of the 

12 technologies identified in our recent report, 

13 it's right here, called Advanced Energy 

14 Technologies for Greenhouse Gas Reduction.

15 AEE believes that EPA's Clean Power Plan 

16 provides a historic opportunity to modernize our 

17 electric power system for the 21st Century. This 

18 rule will drive investment in electric power 

19 system that is sorely in need of it. Many of the 

20 technologies that are already changing the U.S. 

21 power system also help reduce carbon emissions.

22 Our recent report mentioned before 

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1 details 40 separate technologies including energy 

2 efficiency, demand response, natural gas 

3 electricity generation, solar, wind, hydro power, 

4 nuclear, smart grid, and energy storage. AEE 

5 applauds EPA for referencing by name many of 

6 these technologies in its proposal.

7 We urge EPA to further clarify the value 

8 of these technologies by recognizing all 40 of 

9 the options identified in this report. 

10 Now already by including so many of these 

11 established and market-tested technologies, EPA 

12 has made the targets it sets for states easy to 

13 achieve. 

14 Nonetheless, advanced energy can 

15 contribute more to emissions reduction and 

16 electric system modernization. Specifically the

17 Clean Power Plan underestimates the potential 

18 contribution of advanced technologies, especially 

19 renewable energy and energy efficiency. Natural 

20 gas, which is inexpensive, abundant and cleaner 

21 than other fossil fuel sources, EPA rightly 

22 identifies underutilized natural gas generating 

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1 capacity as a resource for emissions reduction. 

2 The draft also acknowledges the benefits of the 

3 existing zero emission nuclear power fleet. 

4 We are still evaluating how these 

5 resources were incorporated into the plan and 

6 whether their value is appropriately recognized. 

7 We have specific concerns about the 

8 treatment of renewables and energy efficiency. 

9 For renewable energy the draft rule sets targets 

10 based on averages of existing state policies, and 

11 then applies the 2020 averages as state targets 

12 for 2030. This results in targets that are 

13 overly conservative in light of the scale of 

14 available renewable energy resources, and the 

15 rapid rate of market growth due to technological 

16 improvement and falling costs. 

17 In Minnesota, for example, the 2030 

18 renewables target is set at 15 percent, when the 

19 state already obtained 18 percent of its 

20 electricity from nonhydro renewables in 2012. 

21 Arizona, which has one of the richest solar 

22 resources in the country is assigned a renewable 

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1 energy target of just four percent in 2030. 

2 EPA should revise its methodology for 

3 renewable energy based on resource availability 

4 and market realities. 

5 On energy efficiency, AEE can validate 

6 the one and a half percent per year savings rate 

7 for electric utility administered programs. 

8 Based on industry experience AEE sees this rate 

9 of energy conservation as reasonable and 

10 sustainable. It will reduce emissions and 

11 produce millions of dollars of savings for 

12 consumers.

13 But again, more can be expected of energy 

14 efficiency that is currently captured in the 

15 Agency's calculations. Efficiency targets set by 

16 the draft rule are based exclusively on utilities 

17 sponsored programs created by state energy 

18 efficiency standards. They do not account for 

19 the considerable private sector energy efficiency 

20 investments made outside of utility programs. So 

21 similar to the renewable target the draft rule 

22 uses 2012 efficiency market figures for 2017 

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1 targets, ignoring the progress states are making 

2 year after year. In the final rule, the targets 

3 for energy efficiency should be strengthened.

4 EPA should make two additional changes in 

5 the structure of the Clean Power Plan. The 

6 agency should give full credit to emission 

7 reductions achieved by projects that are 

8 completed prior to 2020. This will encourage 

9 rather than discourage early action towards state 

10 targets and stimulate investment. 

11 Finally, EPA should also provide for 

12 periodic updates of the standard in order to 

13 reflect the progress that is already taking place 

14 in emission reducing technologies, and will only 

15 accelerate in response to the EPA rule. 

16 Thank you again for giving AEE the 

17 opportunity to comment today.

18 MR. PAGE: Thank you, Mr. Carlson. Are 

19 you going to leave us with a copy of that report 

20 or submit it?

21 MR. CARLSON: Happy to. Happy to leave 

22 it.

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1 MR. PAGE: Okay. If you will --

2 MR. CARLSON: It's online as well. Leave 

3 it up there.

4 MR. PAGE: Terrific. Thank you very 

5 much.

6 MR. CARLSON: No problem. Thanks a lot.

7 MR. PAGE: Appreciate your comments. 

8 MR. CARLSON: Thank you.

9 MR. PAGE: Zabrina.

10 MS. ARNOVITZ: Hi. So Zabrina Arnovitz, 

11 Z-A-B-R-I-N-A A-R-N-O-V-I-T-Z.

12 Thank you for having me here today and 

13 for allowing me to submit my comments.

14 I grew up in a small town just outside of 

15 Cleveland, Ohio. Cleveland and the surrounding 

16 area is one of many places around the country 

17 that has bad air quality days. When I was a 

18 little girl, sometimes on a seemingly nice summer 

19 day my mom wouldn't allow me to go outside and 

20 play. I didn't understand how or why the air 

21 wasn't okay for me to go out and play in, but I 

22 thought it was a normal thing that occurred 

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1 during the summer months.

2 Then I grew up and joined the Sierra 

3 Club's Beyond the Coal Campaign. I learned that 

4 I live in a nonattainment zone, meaning that the 

5 concentration of one or more air pollutants in a 

6 geographic area exceeds the regulated adequate 

7 margin for safety for one or more of the national 

8 ambient air quality standards.

9 This rule will help us clean up our air, 

10 and because no child should have to play inside 

11 on a nice summer day I'm here in support of the 

12 Clean Power Plan. 

13 But I'd also like to say that I know that 

14 you guys can do better and you can do more, and I 

15 encourage you to take this as a first step into 

16 leading to more fuel efficiency and higher 

17 standards. Thank you.

18 MR. PAGE: Okay. Thank you both for your 

19 testimony. We appreciate you coming here today.

20 Next speakers are James Duffy and Herb 

21 Simmens. Mr. Duffy, when you're ready.

22 MR. DUFFY: Good morning. James Duffy, 

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1 D-U-F-F-Y. 

2 Good afternoon. As I said, my name is 

3 James Duffy. I am an attorney with the Clean Air 

4 Task Force. On behalf of the Clean Air Task 

5 Force I want to commend EPA for taking this 

6 important step to reduce carbon pollution from 

7 existing power plants, the nation's largest 

8 source of anthropogenic carbon dioxide. 

9 Issuing carbon dioxide standards for 

10 existing fossil fueled fired power plants is 

11 clearly within EPA's authority under the Clean 

12 Air Act. And indeed it's required by the statute 

13 in conjunction with the EPA's proposed new and 

14 modified source standards for carbon dioxide in 

15 this industry.

16 The need to achieve greenhouse gas 

17 reductions is immediate and we applaud the Agency 

18 for taking this step. Carbon dioxide contributes 

19 significantly to climate change and climate 

20 change induced harms to public health and 

21 welfare. Drought and related adverse effects on 

22 our agriculture systems and water supplies, 

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1 increases in serious insect borne illnesses like 

2 Lyme Disease, the increase in severe weather and 

3 weather related events like wildfires and 

4 flooding, increased ground-level ozone and 

5 adverse effects on wildlife and ecosystems.

6 The pollutant's characteristics highlight 

7 the pressing need to immediately reduce carbon 

8 dioxide emissions. Uncontrolled fossil fuel 

9 fired electric generating plants emit carbon 

10 dioxide in large amounts and they're very long11 lived. 

12 A significant percentage of each ton 

13 emitted remains aloft causing climate harms for 

14 thousands of years. That fact alone makes near 

15 term reductions imperative in order to mitigate 

16 the effects of continuing dangerous rates of 

17 accumulation and associated damage.

18 CATF, like others, is currently working 

19 through the details of this complex proposal. My 

20 comments today are based on our preliminary 

21 analysis of the Clean Power Plan and will be 

22 supplemented with written comments this fall.

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1 The state goals EPA developed under the 

2 plan are reasonable. That is true for the state 

3 goals based on EPA's four BSER building blocks, 

4 and the state goals requiring near term 

5 reductions based on the BSER building blocks, one 

6 and two.

7 Indeed, CATF has modeled an existing 

8 source performance standard approach that is 

9 similar to EPA's proposed BSER building blocks 

10 one and two. 

11 We found there that there is sufficient 

12 underutilized existing and efficient generation 

13 from natural gas power plants to displace 

14 generation from high emission rate coal fire 

15 powered plants, achieving near term carbon 

16 dioxide reductions very cost effectively.

17 Indeed in many states we see the 

18 opportunity for greater average availability of 

19 underutilized natural gas power -- natural gas 

20 generation, greater than the 70 percent ceiling 

21 that EPA has proposed.

22 On the implementation side many states 

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1 have the option of retrofitting existing power 

2 plants with carbon capture, utilization, and 

3 storage, either using enhanced oil recovery or 

4 saline sequestration. 

5 Retrofit CCS technology is available and 

6 demonstrated and can provide significant carbon 

7 reductions. The Boundary Dam Power Plant 

8 retrofit project in Canada has now begun 

9 producing power, for example. This project and 

10 Southern Company's Kemper County CCS retrofit 

11 project in Mississippi are both nearing 

12 completion. The captured carbon dioxide from 

13 these projects will be used in ongoing EOR 

14 activity. States like Texas, Oklahoma, 

15 Louisiana, Mississippi, Kansas and other have 

16 existing power plants, both coal and gas fired, 

17 that may be candidates for retrofits and are 

18 located near EOR sequestration opportunities.

19 For example, plans are moving forward to 

20 retrofit the W.A. Parish Plant in Houston, Texas 

21 and begin capturing Co2 in 2016. 

22 Midwestern states also have existing 

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1 plants that may be candidates for retrofits and 

2 are near saline sequestration opportunities. 

3 For example the Future Gen 2.0 Project 

4 retrofit to an existing power plant in Illinois 

5 plans to come online in 2017.

6 Finally, EPA must require states to 

7 achieve real permanent, enforceable, and 

8 verifiable carbon dioxide reductions from 

9 existing sources in this industry. To that end 

10 CATF supports a mass-base compliance made easier 

11 for states by EPA issuing a model rule to allow 

12 the maximum number of states to take advantage of 

13 the efficiencies of broad interstate trading. 

14 A mass-based approach is an efficient and 

15 effective mechanism for achieving enforceable 

16 pollution reductions and one with which many 

17 states already have experience. 

18 I thank you for this opportunity to 

19 comment on this critically important plan and 

20 this historic rule. CATF looks forward to 

21 continuing its work with the Agency to ensure 

22 that a clean power plant achieves meaningful 

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1 carbon pollution reductions from the existing 

2 fleet. Thank you.

3 MR. PAGE: Thank you, Mr. Duffy. Mr. 

4 Simmens.

5 MR. SIMMENS: Okay. Yes, my name is Herb 

6 Simmens, spelled H-E-R-B S-I-M-M-E-N-S. I live 

7 here in Washington and at one time I was the head 

8 of long range planning for the State of New 

9 Jersey under your former administrator, Christine 

10 Todd-Whitman. So I've been involved in many of 

11 these issues for many many years. I'd like to 

12 speak on my behalf and no one else's today.

13 As I'm sure you know, EPA has quite a 

14 daunting challenge here because I sort of see it 

15 as a kind of dual nature or bifocal. On the one 

16 hand you need to be as you have been, extremely 

17 competent at the technical, at the legal, at the 

18 economic issues to make sure they're both sound, 

19 implementable, and withstand legal and political 

20 challenge.

21 And at the other hand you're dealing with 

22 an issue and a set of regulations that, while 

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1 it's difficult for me not to speak in hyperbole, 

2 it's hard to imagine something more important for 

3 the future of this country, and indeed of the 

4 world. And you know, this is a keystone rule and 

5 we're a keystone country if not the keystone 

6 country in the world where this climate change 

7 can be no more important an issue. Sadly, but 

8 nonetheless true.

9 And so I just urge, as EPA and the 

10 Administration and any future administrations 

11 deal with this, that you keep both eyes on the 

12 ball if you will; the eye on the big picture. 

13 This is not just another regulation that affects 

14 some small narrow interest group that will scream 

15 and yell. Of course, like all interest groups

16 do. But it affects every one of us here in the 

17 world and every one of us to be born and every 

18 animal and plant and creation. And, you know, I 

19 certainly did not come today with any technical 

20 issues. I trust you all to have the expertise 

21 that you need to do. I just make a couple quick 

22 comments.

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1 One is that I think as much as possible 

2 these guidelines or standards should be floors 

3 rather than ceilings, that you should build in 

4 incentives wherever possible for states and other 

5 entities to exceed them, exceed them rapidly and 

6 vigorously, and that you have a combination of 

7 both carbon caps and reductions in carbon 

8 intensity, not just one or the other, so that no 

9 one gets a free ride because of what they've 

10 accomplished or haven't accomplished in the past.

11 And finally I'll just say that a comment 

12 that I read recently by the governor of 

13 Washington, I thought sort of summed it up. 

14 We're the first generation to feel the effects of 

15 climate change. And we may well be the last 

16 generation to be able to do anything about it 

17 significantly. 

18 Thank you. 

19 MR. PAGE: Thank you very much. Thank 

20 you both for coming today. 

21 All righty. Our next speakers are Alex 

22 Trebatoski. You're going to have to help me with 

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1 that one, Alex. And Suzanne Barth. 

2 Trebatoski. Trebatoski. How about that? 

3 Was that closer?

4 MR. TREBATOSKI: That's right. 

5 MR. PAGE: All right. Why don't you 

6 tell us how to pronounce it?

7 MR. TREBATOSKI: Okay. I'm Alex 

8 Trebatoski, A-L-E-X T-R-E-B-A-T-O-S-K-I.

9 MR. PAGE: Very good.

10 MR. TREBATOSKI: So again, I'm Alex 

11 Trebatoski. I’m a 21 year old student at the 

12 College of St. Benedict and St. John's 

13 University. And today I'm here in support of the 

14 EPA's Clean Power Plan.

15 Around the country we are seeing the 

16 effects of air pollution on our country. From 

17 climate change to asthma attacks the negative 

18 consequences of air pollution are everywhere. 

19 These consequences are not 20 or 30 years down 

20 the road, but right here, right now.

21 There is no more pressing threat to the 

22 security of the American people or the people 

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1 around the world than climate change and the 

2 negative effects it brings on.

3 In my native Wisconsin we have seen 

4 destructive tornados, increased rain fall, and 

5 strange temperature variations. These make it 

6 hard to enjoy the beautiful places like the 

7 Schlitz Audubon Center in Northern Milwaukee

8 where I like to spend a lot of time.

9 In Minnesota where I go to school we have 

10 also seen our share of extreme weather. Right 

11 now communities in Minnesota are still drying out 

12 from the extreme floods they had earlier this 

13 summer based on extremely heavy rain fall. This 

14 only adds on to the extreme weather we 

15 experienced this winter when we had bitter cold 

16 and huge snowfalls.

17 That caused school to be canceled maybe 

18 six times over the year because the 

19 administrators at my school felt it wasn't safe 

20 for students to be outside.

21 Extreme weather is on the rise around the 

22 whole country, though. It's fueled by carbon 

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1 emissions and climate changes altering the very 

2 nature of the places we live. It is clear that 

3 all around the country people and communities are 

4 being hit hard by climate change and action must 

5 be taken. Stopping climate change is not about 

6 protecting polar bears or empowering an imperial 

7 presidency, but instead ensuring the security of 

8 every day Americans.

9 People from the east coast who had to 

10 face Superstorm Sandy, people from the Gulf coast 

11 who have to face increased hurricanes, people 

12 from the Pacific Northwest who have to face huge 

13 wildfires. Government inaction and industry 

14 misinformation are costing this country dearly in 

15 both blood and treasure. The jury is not out. 

16 Climate change is real. Carbon pollution is --

17 or carbon pollution is part of the problem. It's 

18 affecting us now and something needs to be done.

19 At my school we just retired our coal 

20 fired boilers from our power plant. This is 

21 emblematic of a trend around the country where 

22 air pollution is being recognized as something 

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1 that needs to be reduced, and we need to strive 

2 for common sense solutions to this problem. 

3 If a small school in the woods of 

4 Minnesota can combat climate change, Washington 

5 can too. 

6 Luckily, while others in Washington are 

7 twiddling their thumbs, the EPA has decided to 

8 take action. This rule is a huge step towards 

9 combating climate change and will serve as an 

10 example for the rest of the world. This is not 

11 just an environmental issue but a national 

12 security issue and I would like to thank all of 

13 those at the EPA who have made this rule 

14 possible, including Administrator McCarthy and 

15 President Obama. Thank you. 

16 MR. PAGE: Thank you for your testimony.

17 MS. BARTH: Suzanne Barth, S-U-Z-A-N-N-E 

18 B-A-R-T-H. 

19 Good afternoon, I would like to begin by 

20 thanking the EPA for providing this opportunity 

21 to participate in the public dialog on the newly 

22 proposed Clean Power Plan. 

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1 My name is Suzanne Barth. I'm a student 

2 at Wellesley College and I'm 20 years old. For 

3 nearly my entire life global warming has been a 

4 constant fixture in the public discourse, and a 

5 recurring topic of conversation at my family's 

6 kitchen table. 

7 And so the realty of global warming was 

8 introduced to me at a very young age. In 

9 elementary and middle school I learned about the 

10 greenhouse effect, how certain gasses like 

11 carbon, when pumped into the atmosphere in excess 

12 contribute to our planet's changing climate. 

13 Young as I was it was difficult for me at first 

14 to connect these lofty concepts to real world 

15 impacts. 

16 But I have grown up in a time that has 

17 made this connection far too easy. The victims 

18 of inaction on climate change were never further 

19 away than my television screen and never closer 

20 than right beside me as we walked together 

21 through the streets of their still devastated 

22 town nearly six months after Hurricane Sandy. 

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1 Stronger and stronger storms have been 

2 devastating communities from New Jersey to my 

3 home state of Missouri. I have been fortunate in 

4 my life thus far. My home has not been claimed 

5 by sea level rise or leveled by the winds of 

6 tornado. But I am painfully aware that not all 

7 have been so lucky. Nor am I entitled to the 

8 continuation of my good fortune.

9 Here I am, poised to enter my junior year 

10 of college. Nearly a decade has passed since my 

11 first rudimentary lessons in the greenhouse 

12 effect. And at last my government has proposed 

13 limits on carbon pollution from one of the 

14 biggest sources, our power plants. 

15 I'm not here to ask why it has taken so 

16 long, for I know the road down which this 

17 regulation has traveled is one plagued with the 

18 potholes of partisan politics. I am here only to 

19 implore the EPA to finalize this rule and ensure 

20 America's leadership in mitigating the damage we 

21 have already incurred upon our climate and 

22 restoring hope for the future of my generation 

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1 and all those that follow. Thanks.

2 MR. PAGE: Thank you both for your 

3 testimony today. I appreciate it. 

4 Our next speakers are Mary Feeherry and 

5 William Rosenow. 

6 Ms. Feeherry when you're ready.

7 MS. FEEHERRY: Go first. Hello. I'm 

8 Mary Feeherry, F, like Frank, E-E-H-E-R-R-Y. 

9 Thank you for the opportunity to speak in 

10 support of the Clean Power Plan. The Clean Power 

11 Plan has the potential to reduce harmful carbon 

12 emissions that are changing our global climate. 

13 I'm a resident of the District of 

14 Columbia, I'm a member of the Sierra Club, and 

15 the Audubon Society, and I'm an interpreter at 

16 the Bird House at the Smithsonian National Zoo. 

17 I have a particular interest in the 

18 effects of climate change on our bird life. 

19 Especially on the 60 percent of North American 

20 birds that shift their ranges with the seasons. 

21 These birds are dealing with the climate crisis 

22 that grows worse each year. 

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1 An example is the Ruby Throated Humming 

2 Bird that we see in our flowerbeds or feeders in 

3 the summer. Soon this tiny bird will be 

4 traveling a thousand miles over land, mountains, 

5 and water to its winter home in Mexico or Central 

6 America. Stopping along the way to rest and eat. 

7 Migratory birds like this have depended

8 on the same system of breeding, wintering, and 

9 stop over sites for thousands of years. Climate 

10 change has disrupted this system and scientists 

11 tell us that birds we love may become extinct in 

12 our lifetimes. 

13 Migratory birds move through different 

14 habitats. They nest in the north in summer, 

15 migrate south when the weather turns cold, and 

16 pass through many different habitats in their 

17 migration. Their journeys have always been 

18 dangerous, but now they are also at risk from 

19 climate change at each of these habitats.

20 Because the climate is changing spring is 

21 arriving earlier in the northern states when 

22 migratory birds nest. And the birds may arrive 

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1 when caterpillars and other insects they depend 

2 on to feed their young are not available. 

3 In coastal areas climate change is 

4 causing rising sea levels and destroying beaches 

5 and marshes where sea birds nest. 

6 Further north in the arctic, migratory 

7 birds that build nests on the ground are finding 

8 that in the changing climate trees are growing in 

9 what was formerly treeless tundra. Migrants that 

10 nest in pine trees in the arctic are losing 

11 nesting sites be deciduous forests are moving up 

12 the mountains, crowding out the Alpine forest 

13 that provide nesting sites.

14 On their migratory routs birds also 

15 encounter new threats. As the climate changes, 

16 they are vulnerable to heat waves, droughts, and 

17 unseasonable cold-snaps. 

18 Global climate change is also increasing 

19 the number and intensity of wildfires, making it 

20 difficult for migrating birds to find safe forest 

21 areas to rest and feed. And as the oceans warm, 

22 marine life that migrating birds depend on is 

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1 less available. Fewer horseshoe crabs are 

2 washing up on the Delaware beaches where they Red 

3 Knots stop on the long migration from the South 

4 to the North Pole.

5 Violent storms are impacting bird life 

6 locally. Close to home I recently came to the 

7 Dyke Marsh, a national park in Virginia where I 

8 meet with fellow birders every Sunday. Migrating 

9 birds nest here and they stop over here on their 

10 journeys farther north.

11 We were horrified to find dozens of trees 

12 in this bird friendly park cut down by a 

13 significant storm that destroyed bird's nests and 

14 required the park to spend its limited resources 

15 on extensive clean up.

16 EPA is offering each state an opportunity 

17 to develop an individual plan to counter the 

18 effects of global climate change, by reducing 

19 carbon emissions from their power plants. Every 

20 state provides habitats for migrating birds and 

21 can benefit by addressing the problems of global 

22 climate change. 

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1 Why should we care? Birds are not just 

2 beautiful. They are a critical link in our 

3 ecosystem. We depend on birds to control many 

4 insect pests and to pollinate many plants. We 

5 cannot duplicate their role in seed dispersal, or 

6 in pest and parasite control. 

7 Birds have long been recognized as 

8 indicators of environmental health. We all know 

9 about the canary in the coal mine. The fate of 

10 our migratory birds is bound up with our own 

11 fate. Neither of our species can survive in a 

12 carbon polluted world. We ignore their peril at 

13 our own peril. What we do today will affect our 

14 planet, our bird life, and ourselves for 

15 centuries to come. We can and must reduce carbon 

16 pollution. We need the Clean Power Plan. Thank 

17 you.

18 MR. PAGE: Thank you for your testimony. 

19 MR. ROSENOW: Thank you for the 

20 opportunity of testifying at this gathering. All 

21 of us present are deeply grateful for the work 

22 that you are doing. 

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1 We want the EPA to know that many of the 

2 churches of our nation are willing to assist you 

3 care for the Earth. We are keenly aware that the 

4 biblical directive we all receive from a loving 

5 God is to care for this fantastic plan as long as 

6 we live.

7 We are also acutely aware that you must 

8 weigh choices and make decisions that affect life 

9 on planet Earth. We know that it is not easy, 

10 for evil in the form of money and power always 

11 presents itself as an attractive option. Know 

12 that we support you in all you do.

13 We have a lot of work to do. We know 

14 that we must choose between a renewable energy 

15 and the present form of energy known as fossil 

16 fuel, such as oil, gas, and coal. They have 

17 served us for centuries, but is one of the 

18 primary causes of climate change.

19 I know that adult members of our churches 

20 will help us educate the young people in their 

21 families regarding the care of the Earth.

22 In 1971 the mission congregation that I 

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1 was serving near Tyson's Corner formed a 

2 recycling agency known as Eco Cycle. We operated 

3 six recycling collection sites in Arlington, 

4 Falls Church, Fairfax, McLean, Sterling, and 

5 Vienna. 

6 We cooperated with Fairfax County 

7 Conservation who had been doing programs in the 

8 public schools to teach the students about 

9 wildlife conservation. They joined us in doing a 

10 program in the schools near the collection sites 

11 to involve the students and their families in a 

12 contest to determine which class would recycle 

13 the most recovered materials. And it was a very 

14 effective program that involved the families with 

15 school-aged children to reduce solid waste, reuse 

16 containers, and recycle to conserve resources and 

17 energy.

18 One of the statements that was always so 

19 effective in getting their attention was, do you 

20 know how much energy and raw materials it takes 

21 to make a throwaway container? And they were 

22 always amazed to learn that it takes 250 times as 

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1 much water to make a paper cup as it does to wash 

2 a reusable one.

3 In 1973 Eco Cycle contracted with the 

4 City of Alexandria to set up six centers in that 

5 city for collecting recyclables. We began 

6 implementing education programs in the public

7 schools. Within a few weeks the 

8 compartmentalized containers were filled to 

9 overflowing. The wonderful program came to an 

10 abrupt end when the Arab Oil Embargo caused fuel 

11 prices to rise and we could no longer afford to 

12 operate the system.

13 Most pew sinners at that time were not 

14 ready to listen. Times were changing and 

15 awareness has changed. We don't have the luxury 

16 of waiting any more until everyone is in 

17 agreement. We need you to step up and make new 

18 policies; policies that make it mandatory for 

19 every community to provide easily accessible 

20 recycling programs or facilities. 

21 Policies that say all emissions from 

22 buildings and vehicles must meet the new carbon 

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1 restrictions. Policies that are incentives for 

2 everyone to convert to renewable resources for 

3 their heat and lights. This would be a great 

4 start. 

5 It would not be easy and there would be 

6 many who will sound all kinds of alarms, but the 

7 instructions are clear and simple, take care of 

8 Planet Earth. The responsibility falls on you, 

9 the Environmental Protection Agency. 

10 Finally, please keep us informed. When 

11 you make the right decisions the clergy and the 

12 churches stand ready to support you. As long as 

13 I am God's agent here among you, I will work to 

14 preserve Planet Earth.

15 Thank you for listening. It's been a 

16 long time coming.

17 MR. PAGE: Thank you, Mr. Rosenow. Could 

18 you please spell your name for the court 

19 reporter?

20 MR. ROSENOW: Rosenow, R-O-S-E-N-O-W.

21 MR. PAGE: Thank you, sir.

22 MR. ROSENOW: Thank you.

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1 MR. PAGE: Thank you both for your 

2 testimony today. We appreciate it.

3 MR. ROSENOW: Thank you.

4 MR. PAGE: Next speakers we have are Erin 

5 Hodge and Nichole Broder. 

6 Whenever you're ready, Ms. Hodge. 

7 MS. HODGE: Hi. My name is Erin Hodge, 

8 that's E-R-I-N H-O-D-G-E. I'm a student at 

9 Boston College studying environmental geo 

10 science. 

11 I wanted to talk to you today about why I 

12 support the EPA's Clean Power Plan and their work 

13 to cut carbon pollution and fight global warming.

14 I grew up in Great Falls, Virginia, not 

15 too far from here on the Potomac. Our roads are 

16 narrow and windy at the best of times, and 

17 honestly dangerous at the worst. I've been there 

18 to witness increasingly heavy storms turn those 

19 roads into rivers, causing damage and even death.

20 Storms bring down trees in my 

21 neighborhood nearly every other week in the 

22 summer, tearing down power lines and leaving us 

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1 without electricity. 

2 I understand that these storms are 

3 becoming more intense because of climate change 

4 and that average precipitation in the U.S. is 

5 expected to further increase. 

6 But I also know that the impacts of 

7 global warming go beyond what I've seen at home. 

8 I spent over a month on the Pacific studying the 

9 ocean. As the world's largest carbon sink the 

10 oceans absorb a lot of the carbon dioxide 

11 released into the atmosphere. 

12 As atmospheric levels increase the ocean 

13 has done its best to keep up and as more Co2 

14 dissolves into the oceans the more acidic they 

15 become. Coral and shells become more difficult 

16 to form, and the delicate balance that marine 

17 ecosystems depend on begins to fail.

18 My shipmates and I collected ph samples 

19 as evidence of the impacts of carbon pollution 

20 during my trip, and that's just one of many chain 

21 reactions started by a polluted atmosphere.

22 Power plants are responsible for around 

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1 40 percent of America's carbon emissions, and 

2 without this rule there are no federal limits on 

3 the amount of carbon pollution they can release 

4 into the air. The Clean Power Plan is a huge 

5 step forward for the U.S. acting to prevent 

6 further damage to our environment and 

7 infrastructure caused by carbon pollution.

8 This is what the EPA was designed to do. 

9 This plan will reduce air pollution to combat 

10 asthma and heat waves and Co2 to combat warming. 

11 I'm grateful for the EPA's commitment to the 

12 fight against global warming and urge you to 

13 finalize the Clean Power Plan. Thank you.

14 MR. PAGE: Thank you.

15 MS BRODER: Hi. My name is Nicole 

16 Broder, that's N-I-C-O-L-E B-R-O-D-E-R. I'm here 

17 today as a student from the College of William 

18 and Mary, studying environmental science and 

19 anthropology.

20 I wanted to share with you today why I'm 

21 concerned about climate change and why I support 

22 the Clean Power Plan. I'll be a senior at the 

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1 college this year and for those of you who aren't 

2 familiar with my school, William and Mary is 

3 located in Williamsburg, Virginia, right in the 

4 heart of the Tidewater Region.

5 Living in this delicate coastal climate 

6 I've already experienced first hand the effects 

7 of climate change. My freshman year on the 

8 second day of classes Hurricane Irene came 

9 barreling up the east coast, causing the college 

10 to evacuate. After only the briefest taste of 

11 college life I was back at home for five days 

12 while the storm raged outside.

13 When I returned I was greeted not with 

14 the site of my beautiful historic school, but 

15 instead with fallen trees, washed out paths, and 

16 standing water at every turn. 

17 My sophomore year Hurricane Sandy hit the 

18 east coast. While Williamsburg was lucky 

19 compared to those located further north, the 

20 college still shut down for two days and suffered 

21 the effects of torrential rain and flooding.

22 That same year the Great Dismal Swamp, 

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1 located just miles from campus, was on fire as a 

2 result of lightning striking unusually dry parts 

3 of the environment. Over 6500 acres of precious 

4 swamp lands were destroyed.

5 Last year, as a junior, Williamsburg 

6 experienced an unheard of amount of snowfall. We 

7 had school canceled on three separate occasions 

8 and saw a total of eight inches accumulate. Just 

9 for some perspective, the average snowfall in 

10 Williamsburg, Virginia is zero inches.

11 And these are only the effects we are 

12 feeling today. Virginia is experiencing the 

13 fastest rate of sea level rise on the east coast, 

14 and Williamsburg sits only 82 feet above sea 

15 level. Bordered by the James River to the north 

16 and the -- oh, sorry, James River to the south 

17 and the York River to the north, I can be sure 

18 that in the coming years my home will be 

19 threatened by sea level rise.

20 The College of William and Mary is 321 

21 years old. As a student of the second oldest 

22 college in the country I am struck every day by 

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1 the juxtaposition of the very foundations of this 

2 country with the education of its future. As the 

3 youth of this country prepare themselves to be 

4 the leaders of tomorrow every day on campus, I 

5 can't help but think that our founding fathers 

6 would be appalled to see this country damaged 

7 beyond repair by climate change.

8 The college is famous for its first. The 

9 first U.S. institution with the Royal Charter, 

10 the first Greek Letter Society, the first student 

11 honor code, the first college to become a 

12 university, and the first law school in America. 

13 It would be a tragedy to see this historic 

14 institution become one of the first to be 

15 destroyed by the effects of climate change.

16 Power plants are the single largest 

17 source of carbon pollution fueling climate 

18 change. In Virginia they are responsible for 31 

19 percent of or carbon pollution. It is undeniable

20 that climate change is fueling extreme weather 

21 events like the ones I have experienced, as well 

22 as causing rising sea levels. Addressing climate 

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1 change is not only our obligation to the youth of 

2 this country, but also our obligation to the 

3 history and founders of this great nation.

4 The EPA must finalize its proposed Clean 

5 Power Plan. We can't sit by and allow power 

6 plants to dump unlimited amounts of dangerous 

7 carbon pollution into the air. Thank you.

8 MR. PAGE: Thank you both for your 

9 testimony today. Appreciate it.

10 Our next two speakers are Samantha Duthe 

11 and Robert Jagusch. 

12 Samantha, are you ready?

13 MS. DUTHE: Good afternoon. Yep.

14 MR. PAGE: Yes.

15 MS. DUTHE: My name is Samantha Duthe, D16 U-T-H-E. 

17 MR. PAGE: Oh, thank you.

18 MS. DUTHE: No problem. I'm a student 

19 studying environmental biology at Niagara 

20 University and I'm here today to say why taking 

21 action against climate change is important to me 

22 and why I support the Clean Power Plan.

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1 Born and raised in Buffalo, New York the 

2 Great Lakes have always been a big part of my 

3 life. Growing up we spent many of my summer days 

4 on the beaches Lake Erie or camping on the shore 

5 of Lake Ontario. But more recently as a class 

6 for my university, last summer I took part in a 

7 three week sailing trip on the Great Lakes. And 

8 this trip gave the Great Lakes a very special 

9 place in my heart. 

10 The lakes presented me with some of the 

11 most beautiful scenery I have ever seen, the 

12 biggest adventure of my life, and the best 

13 memories I have ever made. But the Great Lakes 

14 are at risk from climate change. Climate change 

15 could reduce water levels and increase the 

16 temperature of the water which would provide less 

17 habitats for cold-water fish like Yellow Perch 

18 and Walleye, while creating more suitable 

19 habitats for invasive species.

20 Climate change could also increase algae 

21 blooms which can result in harmful dead zones

22 that make the water unsuitable for many species

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1 and for anyone who enjoys spending time by or on 

2 the water. 

3 Not only does the Clean Power Plan help 

4 to protect the places that we love, but has many 

5 other benefits as well.

6 The Clean Power Plan promotes investments 

7 in efficiency and renewable energy sources like 

8 wind and solar. In turn this creates jobs of the 

9 future and an energy infrastructure that is safer 

10 and healthier. There are also numerous health 

11 benefits that can result from this plan. 

12 By 2030 this plan can help to decrease an 

13 extraordinary amount of asthma attacks for 

14 children and also decrease the number of heart 

15 attacks. 

16 Power plants are the single largest 

17 source of carbon pollution fueling global 

18 warming, and currently there are no federal 

19 limits on the amount of carbon pollution that 

20 power plants can dump into the air. The Clean 

21 Power Plan is an important step in tackling 

22 global warming so that we can protect the places 

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1 that we love, and create a safer, healthier, and 

2 more sustainable future. I urge the EPA to 

3 finalize the Clean Power Plan. Thank you.

4 MR. PAGE: Thank you.

5 MR. JAGUSCH: Good afternoon. I'm Robert 

6 Jagusch, J-A-G-U-S-C-H. I'm Director of 

7 Engineering and Policy Analysis for the Minnesota 

8 Municipal Utilities Association, and MUA is a 

9 state service organization representing the 

10 interest of 125 locally owned municipal and 

11 nonprofit electric utilities throughout 

12 Minnesota. Thank you for the opportunity to 

13 testify today on EPA's proposed rules to reduce 

14 carbon dioxide emissions from existing fossil 

15 fired power plants under Section 111D of the 

16 Clean Air Act known as the Clean Power Plan. 

17 MMUA believes it is congress that should 

18 be addressing the issue of climate change, not 

19 EPA through the existing Clean Air Act, which is 

20 ill suited for this purpose as the EPA's proposal 

21 illustrates. 

22 However, we recognize that congress is 

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1 not going to act any time soon, and that the EPA 

2 intends to issue final regulation under this 

3 rule.

4 We have some concerns with the proposal. 

5 MMUA will also be filing comments by the October 

6 16th deadline that will include a number a 

7 constructive fact-based recommendations to 

8 improve the proposal by making it more workable, 

9 more affordable, or more sustainable. We're 

10 working with our members, the State of Minnesota, 

11 and other stakeholders now to develop these 

12 recommendations. If done correctly Section 111D 

13 could be an effective way to provide a steady Co2 

14 reduction, but it's not quite really designed in 

15 a workable way yet.

16 We're disappointed that the EPA decided 

17 to directly set state's Co2 reduction 

18 requirements. We believe it's the states, not 

19 EPA that should set these limits on fossil fueled 

20 fired power plants at levels based on adequately 

21 demonstrated technologies. The Clean Power Plan 

22 provides no role for the states in setting their 

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1 standards, or in subsequently modifying the 

2 standard based on actual achievability.

3 Minnesota Utilities have already achieved 

4 greater than 20 percent reduction in Co2 since 

5 2005. The proposed rule produces divergent state 

6 goals, even among neighboring states. Minnesota 

7 is required to achieve a 41 percent reduction 

8 from 2012 levels, while Iowa is assigned a 16 

9 percent reduction and North Dakota, only 11 

10 percent. 

11 The actions to acquire the proposed 

12 reductions all have substantial costs with the 

13 emission reductions being frontloaded recurring 

14 most of the reductions early in the compliance 

15 period so consumers in Minnesota will have to 

16 bear much higher financial burden than consumers 

17 in most of our neighboring states. 

18 We believe that it should be possible to 

19 modify the design of the program so as to place 

20 states on more equal footing.

21 Another key concern is that our members 

22 do not get full credit for early actions that 

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1 they've taken in investing in renewable energy 

2 and energy efficiency to reduce emissions prior 

3 to 2012. The proposal also does not treat 

4 emission reductions made before 2020, the same as 

5 those made in 2020 or later.

6 The President's Climate Action Plan 

7 reiterates his goal of a 17 percent reduction in 

8 greenhouse gases from 2005 levels by 2020, which 

9 our members will meet or exceed without any 

10 action by the EPA, and the stated purpose of the 

11 proposed rule is based on reductions from the 

12 power section of approximately 30 percent from 

13 Co2 emissions in 2005.

14 Ideally all actions that reduce Co2 

15 emissions from the power sector during that 

16 period should be given equal weight. According 

17 to Table 6 in the proposed rule, Minnesota 

18 electric generation has already comprised of 18 

19 percent renewable energy in 2012. Most of that 

20 renewable generation was added after 2005, and 

21 should be treated the same as renewable 

22 generation added during the compliance period.

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1 It's vitally important that our members 

2 receive credit for all of their efforts.

3 One of the issues we have again is 

4 Minnesota's newest and most efficient coal power 

5 plant was offline during all of 2012, due to a 

6 major outage. Minnesota's historic coal 

7 generation data relied upon in developing the 

8 rule is therefore abnormally low and must be 

9 adjusted to include the energy produced by the 

10 884 megawatt plant in a typical year.

11 Based on some preliminary calculations 

12 and the base line for Minnesota coal generation 

13 the plant produces a substantial change in 

14 Minnesota's interim and final goals. EPA has 

15 provided no information and guidance on how to 

16 account for discrepancies such as this within the 

17 proposal.

18 Another huge concern we have is the 

19 location of the renewable generation that rate 

20 pairs of Minnesota have already developed. A 

21 large percent of the wind generation that 

22 Minnesota utilities have built resides in optimum 

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1 locations but is outside the borders of 

2 Minnesota. Primarily in the Dakotas, Wyoming, 

3 and Iowa. 

4 This renewable generation was built by 

5 Minnesota rate pairs to meet the requirements of 

6 the Minnesota Renewable Energy Standard and 

7 should be credited to Minnesota's Co2 reductions 

8 under this proposal. 

9 Minnesota state officials have received 

10 preliminary confirmation from the EPA that this 

11 will count for Minnesota, but the final rule will 

12 need to address this issue, along with a way to 

13 resolve state by state conflicts. 

14 We're also requesting the EPA to provide 

15 a mass-based formula and calculations for Co2 for 

16 all the states. Minnesota state officials as 

17 stakeholders need a way to compare options based 

18 on set standards for all the states. 

19 Lastly, we're very concerned about the 

20 reliability of the service we provide to our 

21 customers. The proposal is silent on providing 

22 for an increase in demand from an expanding 

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1 population or the addition of an energy intensive 

2 industry or customer. Energy efficiency and 

3 renewable energy will not be sufficient to 

4 attract any business to compete in these markets. 

5 We also are very concerned about the 

6 reliance on natural gas by substantially 

7 increasing the operating capacity of the natural 

8 gas combined cycle plans. There's a lack of 

9 understanding in the proposal about how natural 

10 gas electric generating units are used to ensure 

11 the reliability of renewable energy, power 

12 quality and intermittent operation which will 

13 exclude many units from being available for base 

14 load generation. 

15 Minnesota also already has routine winter 

16 constraints on natural gas use for our small 

17 peaking electric generating units and reliance on 

18 more natural gas generation will only exacerbate 

19 the problem. 

20 The proposed rules assumptions for 

21 infrastructure improvements --

22 MR. PAGE: We're going to ask you to wrap 

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1 up.

2 MR. JAGUSCH: Yep, I've got it.

3 MR. PAGE: Yep. Okay.

4 MR. JAGUSCH: We just would ask you that 

5 FERC, NERC and the RTOs provide an analysis of 

6 the proposal and we appreciate the recognition 

7 the EPA has given our customers and members in 

8 holding Minnesota up as a positive example in the 

9 proposed rule.

10 We look forward to working with you on 

11 our recommendations and thank you again.

12 MR. PAGE: Thank you both for your 

13 testimony today.

14 Next speakers are Jennifer Kefer and 

15 Monique Hanis.

16 Ms. Kefer, when you are ready.

17 MS. KEFER: Great. Jennifer Kefer, K-E18 F-E-R. 

19 Thank you so much for the opportunity to 

20 testify today. I'm speaking on behalf of the 

21 Alliance for Industrial Efficiency. We're a 

22 diverse coalition of labor, contractor, business, 

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1 and environmental groups committed to finding

2 ways to increase manufacturing competitiveness, 

3 reduce emissions, and create jobs through the use 

4 of combined heat and power and waste heat to 

5 power.

6 Today I'd like to make two key points. 

7 First, we commend EPA for proposing a flexible 

8 rule that allows power plants to take advantage 

9 of the cheapest ways to reduce greenhouse gas 

10 emissions. 

11 Second, EPA needs to strengthen that rule 

12 in several key ways to ensure that CHP and waste 

13 to power are adequately treated.

14 We thank EPA for allowing power plants to 

15 take advantage of low-cost greenhouse gas 

16 emission -- greenhouse gas emission reductions 

17 from CHP. The proposed rule allows for effected 

18 power plants to look outside the four walls of 

19 the facility, to find the lowest cost source of 

20 emission reductions. We thank EPA for allowing 

21 this flexibility because if it was not allowed 

22 CHP and waste to power would not be considered as 

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1 compliance options.

2 While a few PHC systems will be directly 

3 covered by the rule there are still opportunities 

4 at hospitals, universities, and factories that 

5 offer a proven cost effective way to create jobs, 

6 save money, and enhance reliability. And these 

7 activities should be encouraged.

8 CHP and waste heat to power offer many 

9 benefits. First, environmental. CHP and waste 

10 heat to power allow their host facilities to 

11 produce more useful heat and electricity with 

12 less fuel. And because they're combusting less 

13 fuel that means they're producing fewer 

14 emissions.

15 Two, economic. At the same time, because 

16 these systems are more efficient they have to 

17 purchase less fuel. That makes these facilities 

18 more competitive. 

19 Under one scenario DOE projects that full 

20 scale deployment of CHP could create 1 million 

21 new jobs. 

22 And finally reliability. CHP systems can 

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1 operate independent of the grid. This relieves 

2 the burden that they place on transmission and 

3 distribution lines, and means that systems can be 

4 up and running during extreme weather events that 

5 may cause power outages.

6 Moreover, the potential deployment of CHP 

7 and waste heat to power is great. According to 

8 recent analysis by the American Council for an 

9 Energy Efficient Economy and the Center for Clean 

10 Air Policy, this rule could support 10 to 20 

11 gigawatts of new CHP installations. That's the 

12 equivalent of 20 to 40 conventional power plants. 

13 And that analysis was using very conservative 

14 assumptions.

15 Nonetheless, we also point out that EPA 

16 can strengthen the rule in five key ways to 

17 ensure that CHP and waste heat to power are 

18 adequately treated. 

19 One, EPA needs to send a clear signal 

20 about CHP. The proposed rule needs to clarify 

21 that CHP and waste heat to power qualify as 

22 compliance mechanisms. It's not clear that 

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1 references throughout the rule to energy 

2 efficiency extend to CHP and waste heat to power. 

3 CHP is mentioned only once as an example of 

4 demand side energy efficiency. Waste heat to 

5 power is not mentioned at all.

6 Explicit recognition of CHP and waste 

7 heat to power will send a strong signal to states 

8 that they should consider these technologies when 

9 they are developing their own compliance plans.

10 Two, EPA should provide a full 100 

11 percent thermal credit. One of the key 

12 advantages of CHP is that it produces both 

13 electricity and heat from a single fuel source. 

14 Now the vast majority if CHP systems are not 

15 directly affected by this rule. Either because 

16 they're not large enough or because they're not 

17 selling electricity back to the grid.

18 However, where systems are covered, the 

19 rule does not fully credit all of the thermal 

20 energy that they produce. If EPA wants to 

21 encourage CHP deployment, as we believe it does, 

22 it should recognize all of the thermal output 

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1 from a CHP system. States are likely to adopt 

2 the approach that is put forth in this rule when 

3 they incorporate CHP into their compliance plans.

4 For the same reason, three, EPA needs to 

5 provide a full 100 percent -- I'm sorry, a full 

6 line loss credit. 

7 Another benefit of CHP is that it reduces 

8 losses associated with delivering electricity 

9 from a central power generator to an end user. 

10 For the systems that are directly covered 

11 by the rule EPA acknowledges it's benefit and 

12 provides a modest five percent line loss credit. 

13 In fact, avoided transmission and distribution 

14 losses associated with CHP are significantly 

15 larger. The rule needs to fully credit these 

16 savings. This too will send an important signal 

17 to states.

18 Four, provide assurances. By installing 

19 CHP systems manufacturers reduce emissions 

20 throughout the air shed. However, because they 

21 are now producing electricity on site, their own 

22 emissions may modestly increase. These 

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1 facilities need to have assurances that actions 

2 that they take now will not subject them to more 

3 demanding requirements down the road.

4 And finally, five, EPA needs to prepare 

5 state templates. The proposed rule sets initial 

6 targets but provides states tremendous 

7 flexibility to determine how to meet them in 

8 their own compliance plans. States are going to 

9 need help to figure out how to incorporate CHP 

10 and waste heat to power into those plans. If EPA 

11 fails to provide those resources then the jobs 

12 and enhanced competitiveness benefits of CHP will 

13 be lost.

14 In sum, CHP and waste heat to power cut 

15 emissions, create jobs, and save money. EPA 

16 should clarify that the rule encourages their use 

17 and provide tools to the states to ensure that 

18 these technologies are incorporated into state 

19 plans. Thank you.

20 MR. PAGE: Thank you.

21 MS HANIS: Good afternoon, and thanks for 

22 this time to share my comments in support of 

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1 EPA's proposed rules to reduce emission from 

2 existing power plants.

3 My name is Monique Hanis and I'm here as 

4 a concerned citizen and mother from Arlington, 

5 Virginia.

6 MR. PAGE: Ms. Hanis, would you please 

7 spell your name for the court reporter?

8 MS. HANIS: Sure. I actually gave her 

9 my --

10 MR. PAGE: Oh, okay. 

11 MS. HANIS: -- (indiscernible)**57:43, 

12 so.

13 MR. PAGE: Great. Thank you.

14 MS. HANIS: I'm here today to register my 

15 strong support for these new EPA rules and their 

16 speedy implementation by states, including 

17 Virginia where I've lived and raised my family 

18 for nearly 25 years. 

19 During this time as an individual citizen 

20 I've tried to do my best to protect and improve 

21 our environment. I take public transportation, I 

22 ride my bike and drive a hybrid car. In fact I 

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1 rode my bike to be here with you today. Over the 

2 years my husband and I have implemented energy 

3 efficiency in the homes we've owned. We've 

4 installed insulation, programmable thermostats, 

5 more efficient lighting, as well as highly rated 

6 windows and air conditioners.

7 And eight years ago we also installed 

8 solar water heating and solar electric PV systems 

9 on our current residence to generate our own 

10 power. 

11 Since then I've seen first-hand that 

12 solar energy really works and it saves our family 

13 nearly 40 percent of our energy bills, and it 

14 reduces our dependence on coal and natural gas. 

15 But I feel that's not enough.

16 I support these EPA rules because 

17 effective public policy is needed to drive larger 

18 structural changes to make a significant impact 

19 on how we generate and use energy everywhere we 

20 live, work, learn, and play. 

21 By setting achievable targets to reduce 

22 our carbon emissions the EPA rules will help us 

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1 reduce dangerous pollution and address climate 

2 change so that our communities and our families 

3 will have a cleaner, safer future. 

4 This is similar to past EPA rules that 

5 have successfully reduced emissions from our 

6 vehicles, protected our water, cut other 

7 pollution from power plants like sulfur and 

8 nitrogen dioxides.

9 As a concerned citizen I feel the 

10 proposed rules don't go far enough, but I support 

11 them as a balanced reasonable way to improve our 

12 environment while growing our economy and 

13 creating new domestic jobs. I feel by setting 

14 targets the EPA gives our states and power 

15 companies great flexibility to comply with a 

16 range of options to increase energy efficiency 

17 and expand use of solar and other renewable, 

18 clean, abundant energy sources so that we can 

19 reduce our dependence on polluting fossil fuels.

20 These rules will drive state policy 

21 makers and utility companies to seek effective 

22 market solutions on behalf of our communities and 

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1 energy customers in all sectors.

2 I also feel it's imperative that our 

3 nation signal to others globally that we are 

4 doing our fair share to reduce emissions that 

5 pollute and contribute to climate change. We 

6 need to lead on this issue and that begins with 

7 taking meaningful action.

8 In my professional career I've worked in 

9 banking, renewable energy and sustainable 

10 forestry. I learned that companies and markets 

11 are remarkably effective at adjusting to new 

12 circumstances. So are people. 

13 I also learned that these companies and 

14 local economies can grow when we do the right 

15 thing to protect our environment. But we need 

16 government guidance to spur us into greater 

17 action. That is why I fully support these new 

18 proposed EPA rules. I encourage power companies, 

19 and mine in particular, Dominion Power, to 

20 embrace these rules and see them as an 

21 opportunity to develop new, sustainable business 

22 models that serve the interests of their 

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1 customers, the communities they sever, 

2 shareholders, and our environment. So let's get 

3 started. Thank you.

4 MR. PAGE: Thank you both for your 

5 testimony today. We appreciate it.

6 Our next speakers are David Cash and 

7 Jeremy Richardson. Mr. Cash, you're first up.

8 MR. CASH: Thank you very much for the 

9 opportunity to testify today and provide comments 

10 on EPA's proposed clean power plan. My name is 

11 David Cash, D-A-V-I-D C-A-S-H. And I'm the 

12 Commissioner of the Massachusetts Department of 

13 Environmental Protection. Prior to this I was a 

14 commissioner of our state's public utilities 

15 commission, and in that role focused on grid 

16 reliability and cost protection freight payers. 

17 In total I've worked in state government for 10 

18 years, always at the nexus of energy, 

19 environment, and economic development.

20 Before going into some specific aspects 

21 of the proposal, I want to make two general 

22 points. First, we strongly support EPA's 

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1 decision to use the Clean Air Act to regulate 

2 carbon dioxide emissions from existing electric 

3 power plants, and support the time table and 

4 schedule that has been proposed.

5 Addressing climate change is critically 

6 important and a fundamental generational 

7 responsibility that we have. And we agree that 

8 all states should be on the path toward a clean 

9 energy future. 

10 Second, based on the administration of 

11 Governor Deval Patrick's Clean Energy Agenda, our 

12 experience regulating carbon emission from 

13 electric power plants has definitely shown that 

14 programs that reduce emissions can support 

15 economic growth by reducing energy costs, 

16 creating local clean energy jobs, and insulating 

17 the economy from fuel price volatility. 

18 In the remainder of my testimony I would 

19 share our initial thoughts about several aspects 

20 of the proposal, and we're working with other 

21 states to provide written comments in October. 

22 My first specific comment is that the 

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1 proposed targets, while significant, might not 

2 meet the President's goal of achieving economy3 wide reductions of 83 percent by 2050. 

4 While Massachusetts and the eight other 

5 states that participate in the Regional 

6 Greenhouse Gas Initiative, REGGI, an their market 

7 based program are already on track to reduce 

8 emissions by 50 percent below 2005 levels by 

9 2020, EPA has indicated that the plan will reduce 

10 emissions from covered sources by 30 percent from 

11 2005 levels in 2030. 

12 While we recognize that the REGGI states' 

13 levels of reductions may not be appropriate for 

14 all states, our success suggests that nationwide 

15 cuts, larger than 30 percent, are feasible. EPA 

16 should therefore review the proposal for 

17 additional reduction opportunities. 

18 For example, for some states that do not 

19 currently have policies that support renewable 

20 energy, the proposal does not fully recognize the 

21 potential to increase renewable energy 

22 generation. Our success in driving investment to 

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1 renewable energy can be replicated in other 

2 states. And for most other states wind and solar 

3 resources will be better than they are in 

4 Massachusetts where we have, nonetheless, seen 

5 rapid deployment and rapid decline of 

6 installation costs. These facts should be read 

7 or reflected in the proposal.

8 We're very pleased to see the plan 

9 recognizes regional market-based programs such as 

10 REGGI. We participate in this program and expect 

11 to use it to comply. As you know the program has 

12 been an unmitigated success. Not just as an 

13 environmental regulation but as a driver of 

14 economic growth.

15 Market-based programs have long been 

16 recognized as the regulatory approach that 

17 reduces emissions at the lowest possible economic 

18 cost, and REGGI has shown that by investing 

19 auction revenues strategically, significant 

20 economic benefits are possible. 

21 In the REGGI region, for example, net 

22 benefits were approximately $1.6 billion in the 

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1 first compliance period. EPA should ensure that 

2 other interested states are able to realize these 

3 benefits by providing assistance with tasks such 

4 as allowance tracking and auction 

5 administration.,

6 For states that do not choose market 

7 based programs, Massachusetts' experience is also 

8 relevant. Such states will need to complete a 

9 planning process to identify a suite of emission 

10 reduction policies. We have successfully used 

11 such processes in two different contexts. 

12 First, under the state implementation

13 plan requirements of the Clean Air Act, we have 

14 cost effectively reduced emissions of smog 

15 forming pollutants. 

16 Second, Massachusetts has a state statute 

17 the requires a similar planning process for 

18 greenhouse gas emissions. While challenging, we 

19 have found that these processes represent an 

20 opportunity to pursue policies that best support 

21 economic growth. And I'm proud to say that 

22 because of all the work that has been done in 

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1 states like Massachusetts states have a long list 

2 of well tested strategies that are economically 

3 beneficial that cause emission reductions that 

4 can be chosen from.

5 Providing a comprehensive review of our 

6 state policies is beyond the scope of my remarks. 

7 However, I want to call out one example that has 

8 been of particular focus. Energy efficiency.

9 Our homegrown energy efficiency industry 

10 now supports nearly 50,000 jobs and will, over 

11 time, deliver $4 to $5 in benefits for every 

12 dollar we invest. In the longer term it will 

13 help us remain competitive with other energy 

14 efficient economies such as those of California, 

15 Japan, and in Europe. However, because of the 

16 amount of money involved it also represents a 

17 huge responsibility to invest prudently. 

18 In Massachusetts we devote significant 

19 resources to program evaluation and stakeholder 

20 input. In many cases working with regional and 

21 national groups to create uniform protocols. We 

22 are pleased to see this work recognized in the 

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1 proposal but urge EPA to go further to require 

2 rigorous standardized treatment of energy 

3 efficiency in state plans. 

4 I'd summarize our experience reducing 

5 power sector carbon emissions in Massachusetts 

6 with the following statistics. Since 1990 our 

7 economy has grown by 70 percent while greenhouse 

8 gas emissions have fallen by 40 percent. During 

9 the administration of Governor Deval Patrick, 

10 solar capacity has grown from 3 megawatts to over 

11 500 megawatts, wind has grown from 3 megawatts to 

12 100 megawatts, the Clean Energy Sector now has 

13 over 80,000 jobs and has grown six percent to 12 

14 percent annually for the last five years, and 

15 Massachusetts has become an international hub for 

16 clean energy innovation and entrepreneurship. 

17 Along the way we have developed, tested, 

18 and deployed programs that drive economic growth 

19 and reduce carbon emissions. The Clean Power 

20 Plan would set the country as a whole, on a 

21 similar path, reducing emissions while seizing 

22 economic opportunities, both at home and in the 

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1 increasing competitive global clean energy 

2 market. Thank you. And I look forward to 

3 continued collaboration with EPA. 

4 MR. PAGE: Thank you, Commissioner Cash. 

5 One clarification. The 50,000 jobs that you 

6 reference, is that --

7 MR. CASH: Eighty thousand.

8 MR. PAGE: Eighty thousand. Is that in 

9 Massachusetts or across the 

10 (indiscernible)**1:07:33.

11 MR. CASH: Eighty thousand jobs in 

12 Massachusetts. 

13 MR. PAGE: In Massachusetts.

14 MR. CASH: And six percent to 12 percent 

15 growth in Massachusetts. Other states have had 

16 similar successes as well.

17 MR. PAGE: Thank you. Yes, sir.

18 MR. RICHARDSON: Jeremy Richardson, R-I19 C-H-A-R-D-S-O-N. Thank you for the opportunity 

20 to testify today in support of strong carbon 

21 pollution standards for existing power plants. 

22 My name is Jeremy Richardson and I am a 

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1 senior energy analyst at the Union of Concerned 

2 Scientists.

3 UCS is the nation's leading science based 

4 non-profit working for a healthy environment and 

5 a safer world. I have a unique perspective on 

6 reducing greenhouse gas emissions from burning 

7 fossil fuels. 

8 As a scientist I understand the urgency 

9 to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to protect the 

10 planet's climate. As the brother, son, and 

11 grandson of West Virginia coal miners the 

12 question of how we go about tackling climate 

13 change is deeply personal to me. 

14 First, on behalf of UCS's more than 

15 450,000 supporters, I want to say today that we 

16 strongly support the Environmental Protection 

17 Agency's efforts to limit carbon emissions from 

18 the fossil fuel fired power plants under the 

19 Clean Air Act. 

20 Simultaneously I want to emphasize the 

21 need for special consideration for the families 

22 and communities facing the negative consequences 

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1 of the transition to a cleaner low carbon energy 

2 system.

3 Human induced climate change is already 

4 having impacts that are being felt by people here 

5 in America and around the world. If we 

6 collectively fail to make deep reductions in our

7 carbon emissions we will greatly increase the 

8 risk of serious economic health, and 

9 environmental consequences from accelerating sea 

10 level rise, storm surges, heat waves, drought, 

11 wild fires, frequent heavy downpours, and 

12 increased hurricane intensity.

13 These impacts are the direct consequence 

14 of increasing concentration of greenhouse gases 

15 like carbon dioxide in our planet's atmosphere. 

16 Power plants are the largest single source of 

17 U.S. Co2 emissions, representing about 40 percent 

18 of the total. Reducing emissions from the 

19 electric power sector is therefore crucial to our 

20 overall efforts to tackle climate change. 

21 These facts compel us to act and to act 

22 decisively. In doing so we must recognize that 

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1 some regions of the country are facing a heavier 

2 burden than others in this transition to a less 

3 fossil intensive electricity system.

4 The proposed carbon standard for existing 

5 power plants provides a sound framework for 

6 reducing emissions from the power sector, but it 

7 is not ambitious enough and the overall result of 

8 a 30 percent reduction in emissions in 2030 

9 relative to 2005. 

10 UCS analysis shows that we can achieve 

11 twice that, a 60 percent reduction in emissions 

12 in 2030 relative to 2005. UCS supports EPA's 

13 proposal to incorporate outside the fence 

14 emissions reduction measures, namely renewable 

15 energy and energy efficiency and state compliance 

16 plans. Renewables such as wind, solar, and 

17 geothermal energy emit no carbon and are already 

18 delivering safe, reliable, and affordable power 

19 to consumers. They also help diversity their 

20 electricity mix, improve public health, 

21 strengthen state and local economies, and reduce 

22 the risk of an over reliance on natural gas.

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1 EPA used four building blocks to 

2 determine the best system of emission reductions, 

3 and establish emission rate reduction goals for 

4 each state.

5 For the renewables block EPA has really 

6 proposed an average system of emissions 

7 reductions, seriously underestimating the true 

8 potential for renewable energy to cut carbon 

9 emissions. EPA's state renewable energy targets 

10 are in many cases close to a business as usual 

11 approach. Four states, for example, have more 

12 renewable energy generation in 2012 than their 

13 EPA targets for 2030.

14 States could be more ambitious in using 

15 renewables to reduce emissions. The costs of 

16 renewable energy have fallen dramatically. For 

17 example the cost of solar photovoltaics are 

18 already -- is already equal to retail electricity 

19 rates in 10 states. And this number could more 

20 than double over the next year and a half as the 

21 cost of solar continue to fall according to a 

22 recent study by Deutsche Bank.

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1 Since the beginning of 2011 the average 

2 price of a solar PV panel has declined 60 percent 

3 and the average installed cost has fallen by more 

4 than 35 percent. Meanwhile the cost of wind 

5 power dropped 43 percent in the last four years, 

6 and is now competitive with power from new fossil 

7 fuel plants in many regions -- in some regions of 

8 the country. 

9 Multiple market factors are making coal 

10 fired power too expensive relative to other 

11 cheaper less polluting options like natural gas, 

12 renewable energy, and energy efficiency.

13 States have a major role to play in 

14 developing implementation plans for carbon 

15 standards. Together with federal policy makers 

16 states should help ensure that economic 

17 diversification and resources for worker 

18 transition are an important part of their plans. 

19 In doing so, together we can not only establish a 

20 strong standard to protect the planet's climate, 

21 but also ensure that the workers and communities 

22 have fresh economic opportunities. And as market 

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1 forces drive a shift away from coal. 

2 I do not accept this as an either/or 

3 proposition. Our children and our grandchildren 

4 will face the risks of a vastly different climate 

5 caused by your failure to act to reduce emissions 

6 today.

7 My young niece and maybe someday her 

8 grandchildren -- her children and grandchildren, 

9 will face an uncertain future if we don't get the 

10 second part right too. It's much harder but it 

11 is imperative that we do both. Thank you.

12 MR. PAGE: Thank you both for coming 

13 today. Appreciate it.

14 Our next speakers are Isabella Levy 

15 and -- or Levy, and Lauren Shinaberry. You all 

16 will have to help me out on the pronunciations.

17 Isabella and Lauren. 

18 MS. SHINABERRY: I'm Lauren Shinaberry.

19 MR. PAGE: All right. Very good. 

20 Lauren, why don't you go ahead? 

21 MS. SHINABERRY: Okay.

22 MR. PAGE: Okay.

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1 MS. SHINABERRY: I'm Lauren Shinaberry, 

2 it's S-H-I-N-A-B-E-R-R-Y. I'm a sophomore at the 

3 University of Michigan Dearborn, and I'm here 

4 because I believe that it is time to act on 

5 climate change and carbon pollution.

6 Growing up in Michigan I have had the 

7 incredible opportunity of being surrounded by our 

8 beautiful Great Lakes. I have unforgettable 

9 memories of hiking and camping with my family 

10 along the shores of Lake Michigan, adventuring 

11 along Sleeping Bear Dunes and spending time 

12 canoeing around Lake Superior.

13 But for as much fun as these lakes have 

14 provided me over the years, they have also given 

15 me the eye-opening realization of disastrous

16 impacts that climate change is imposing on our 

17 waters.

18 Global warming is heating up our beloved 

19 Great Lakes. According to the National Wildlife 

20 Federation, Lake Superior has already seen rising 

21 temperatures and an early onset of summer 

22 stratification over the past 30 years. Given 

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1 another 30 years and Superior, which is known as 

2 our coldest Great Lake could be mostly ice-free 

3 during a typical winter. 

4 The increased temperatures are also more 

5 suitable for invasive species and harmful 

6 bacteria growth, which puts both animal and human 

7 health at risk. These lakes, which provide well 

8 over 26 million people with drinking water are in 

9 serious danger due to global warming and the 

10 carbon pollution fueling it.

11 Though many people do not realize the 

12 Great Lakes provide us with more than just 

13 beautiful views. They are essential to our 

14 quality of life. From farm lands to 

15 transportation this is an ecosystem we can't 

16 afford to lose. We cannot stand idly by any 

17 longer as our beaches are continuously closing 

18 due to hazardous bacteria levels and dangerous 

19 weather conditions, while our native species are 

20 dying off or being displaced from their homes.

21 Around the country similar problems are 

22 taking place, from wild fires in Colorado to heat 

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1 waves in Atlanta, the impacts of global warming 

2 are real and detrimental to us and our 

3 environment.

4 Unfortunately these problems will only 

5 grow worse if we leave climate change and carbon 

6 pollution unaddressed. Until now there has been 

7 no federal limit on the amount of carbon 

8 emissions power plants can release into the air, 

9 and they are the single largest source of carbon 

10 pollution fueling global warming. 

11 But we can do something about it. In 

12 2007 the Supreme Court ruled that EPA was 

13 obligated to limit carbon pollution under the 

14 Clean Air Act, and they are now doing so with the 

15 proposed Clean Power Plan. I know that I am not 

16 alone in urging the EPA to address climate change 

17 and finalize this plan so that we can finally cut 

18 back on harmful carbon emission and start working 

19 toward a healthier future with efficient and 

20 renewable energy sources such as solar and wind.

21 As I'm sure my fellow Michiganders agree, 

22 we want our nickname as the Great Lake State to 

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1 stay. We want to enjoy weekends at the beach. 

2 We want our native animals to thrive in their 

3 habitats, and further, we want to ensure that the 

4 vital ecosystems in our state and the 49 others 

5 are protected from the constant threat of global 

6 warming.

7 So for our environment, for generations 

8 to come, and for ourselves, we must work to fight 

9 against carbon pollution and aim for a better 

10 healthier world. Thank you.

11 MR. PAGE: Thank you, Lauren. Appreciate 

12 your testimony.

13 All right. Is Isabella Levy here? All 

14 right. Let's see. We don't have any more 

15 speakers signed up for right now. We'll wait a 

16 minute and see if the folks that are doing the 

17 registration will bring --

18 (Waiting for more speakers.)

19 MR. PAGE: All righty. We do have some 

20 more speakers signed up. Jessica Jones and 

21 William Pennimen. 

22 Welcome to both of you. If you'll spell 

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1 your name before you start? Jessica, you're up 

2 first and just begin when you're ready.

3 MS. JONES: Good afternoon. My name is 

4 Jessica Jones, last name is J-O-N-E-S. 

5 Thank you for this opportunity to speak 

6 on the Environmental Protection Agency's Clean 

7 Power Plan. I strongly support the EPA's efforts

8 to limit industrial carbon pollution from all 

9 power plants. The new proposed standard to 

10 eliminate greenhouse gases from existing power 

11 plants is an important step in the fight against 

12 climate change. 

13 I believe that climate change is the 

14 greatest challenge of our time. International 

15 and national scientific studies have repeatedly 

16 shown that carbon pollution contributes directly 

17 to climate change and the threats that it brings 

18 to our communities. 

19 Power plants are currently the largest 

20 source of carbon pollution emitting 40 percent of 

21 carbon emissions in the United States. These 

22 emissions are the chief cause of climate change 

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1 in our country.

2 I'm not a mom. I'm not a politician, or 

3 an industry specialist. I am, however, an aunt, 

4 a runner, and a citizen. I believe that it is 

5 our moral obligation to put people before 

6 polluters and put an end to the unlimited dumping

7 of carbon pollution into our air. To me this 

8 means a safer environment for my nieces and 

9 nephews, cleaner air to breath while running, and 

10 an important step to preserving our most 

11 important commodity, our planet. 

12 This new Clean Air Standard will protect 

13 public health, fight climate change, and create 

14 jobs through innovation and cleaner energy 

15 technology. The regulation as written will give 

16 flexibility to states to formulate their own 

17 plans to meet the goals set by the EPA. This 

18 means that the many states and local communities 

19 that have already taken action on climate change 

20 will continue to have the resources to move 

21 forward. 

22 This new federal safeguard will set 

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1 common sense limits on carbon pollution, inspire 

2 investment and infrastructure to protect 

3 communities from the climate change impacts they 

4 are already experiencing, and spur the kind of 

5 innovation that will power America with clean 

6 energy in the 21st Century. 

7 The new safeguards will also give states 

8 flexibility to implement plans that increase 

9 efficiency, improve resiliency, and remove carbon 

10 pollution from our air. 

11 Reducing the amount of carbon pollution 

12 from power plants is a lifesaving measure that 

13 will protect our children, our nation, and the 

14 world from the devastating effects of climate 

15 change. Limits on carbon pollution should match 

16 the limits currently placed on mercury, arsenic, 

17 and soot. 

18 The standards proposed by the EPA are 

19 aggressive and ambitious. I commend the EPA for 

20 taking the necessary steps to limit carbon 

21 pollution from both new and existing sources. I 

22 stand by you in support of this regulation and 

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1 your plan to maintain an affordable reliable 

2 energy system while cutting pollution and 

3 protecting our health and environment. 

4 Thank you again for the opportunity to 

5 speak today.

6 MR. PAGE: Thank you, Ms. Jones. Mr. 

7 Penniman.

8 MR. PENNIMAN: Thank you. My name is 

9 William Penniman. I'm a resident of Reston, 

10 Virginia. I've spent 40 years working on energy 

11 issues here in Washington, D.C.

12 MR. PAGE: I need you to spell your name 

13 first for the court reporter.

14 MR. PENNIMAN: Sure. Sure. It's William 

15 Penniman, P as in Pennsylvania, E-N-N-I-M-A-N.

16 MR. PAGE: Excuse me for interrupting. 

17 Go ahead.

18 MR. PENNIMAN: That's fine.

19 MR. PAGE: Please proceed.

20 MR. PENNIMAN: Today, though, I am here 

21 as an individual as a husband, a parent, a 

22 grandparent, an an uncle. I have 20 great 

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1 grandchildren -- or grandchildren, plus my own

2 children. I mean, grand nieces and nephews, plus 

3 my own grandchildren. And I can say that they 

4 will be alive in 2100. My children will be alive 

5 in 2050. I may not make it. But I can assure 

6 you that folks who tell you this is too far off 

7 in the future, they are the future. They're 

8 alive now, we need to move now to protect them.

9 I strongly support what EPA has proposed. 

10 It's very generous to the states, unprecedented 

11 as far as I can tell in terms of offering states 

12 flexibility to come up with ways of solving the 

13 climate pollution dilemma. 

14 Climate change is real. We need to act 

15 now. The Co2 emitted today will be in the 

16 atmosphere for hundreds if not thousands of 

17 years, and the longer we wait the more costly it 

18 will be. A study just released yesterday by the 

19 White House Council of Economic advisers

20 confirming that the longer we wait the more 

21 costly it gets.

22 Opponents are essentially taking the 

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1 approach of the tobacco companies. Confuse the 

2 public on science, plead for more time in the 

3 name of their profits at the expense of other 

4 people's health. And now there's a new one of 

5 hiding behind poor people.

6 I would simply say with respect to poor 

7 people, that is an important issue. It was 

8 important for the Affordable Care Act, it is 

9 important here.

10 But in this area there are readily 

11 available solutions including improved energy 

12 efficiency in the homes of people, which will cut 

13 their bills even if the rates go up some, and 

14 that's something that EPA has recognized. And 

15 then there are also rate solutions such as a 

16 lifeline rates which have a low block initially 

17 and then rise with consumption, also an effective 

18 way of encouraging energy efficiency.

19 What I'd like to do though, from here, is 

20 simply come in on some practical suggestions for 

21 how EPA should go about implementing the rule.

22 First, I agree with many others that it 

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1 would be valuable to strengthen the requirements 

2 for 2020, the 2020 to 20209 period and 2030. 

3 There shouldn't -- it should be quite 

4 possible to achieve a 30 percent reduction by 

5 2020 and a 35 to 40 percent reduction by 2030.

6 Given the general recognition that we 

7 need to reduce Co2 pollution by 80 percent from 

8 1990 levels by 2050, it's very important we start 

9 that trajectory now because a smoother path to 

10 that ultimate end is going to do -- is going to 

11 be much more beneficial economically. 

12 And the goals you've set or proposed are 

13 relatively modest, given how much progress has 

14 already been made and the technologies now 

15 available.

16 Second, please reject the arguments by 

17 some states and fossil fuel companies and 

18 utilities for delaying the rules. Again, we need 

19 to move sooner rather than later for the sake of 

20 my grandchildren, children, and the rest of my 

21 family, and yours. 

22 Third, prepare for the resistant states. 

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1 You have been as generous as I can imagine in 

2 terms of suggesting ways, responding to the 

3 desire for flexibility. Nevertheless, based on 

4 the experience I've seen in Virginia and other 

5 states regarding the Affordable Care Act, you can 

6 expect that there will be a certain amount of 

7 simple recalcitrants. 

8 For that reason I urge you to finalize 

9 the rules by March or April of 2015, rather than 

10 June, so there's more time to work on 

11 implementation plans. In that rule set a 

12 schedule by which draft plans and progress has to 

13 be shown before the final rule so there isn't 

14 just some kind of surprise dropping a bad plan in 

15 on you.

16 And beware of extending the timeframe for 

17 compliance for those states that want to do an 

18 interstate solution. I'm not opposed to that 

19 concept. REGGI and similar programs would make a 

20 lot of sense, but they need to have a compliant 

21 plan already prepared by June 2016, even if they 

22 say, okay, delay its actual implementation 

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1 because we'll come up with a better one. But you 

2 need something in place to fall back on.

3 And the last thing is to prepare your 

4 federal implementation plans sooner rather than 

5 later. If it requires new proceedings, initiate 

6 those proceedings now so that the FIPs are in 

7 place, ready to go for those states that fail to 

8 come through. The more notice they have, the 

9 better off we'll all be.

10 But beyond that, thank you very much for 

11 embarking on this process and I encourage you to 

12 stick with it and help reduce Co2 pollution. 

13 Thank you very much.

14 MR. PAGE: Great. Thank you both for 

15 your testimony today.

16 Our next speakers are Alan Loeb and Kara 

17 Rinaldi.

18 MR. PENNIMAN: Can I give you written 

19 copies?

20 MR. PAGE: Please. Yeah, in fact if 

21 you'll give them to the people out at the desk --

22 MR. PENNIMAN: I will do that.

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1 MR. PAGE: -- that would be great. Thank 

2 you very much.

3 MR. PENNIMAN: Thank you.

4 MR. PAGE: Uh-huh. Alan Loeb and Kara 

5 Rinaldi.

6 MS. RINALDI: I'm Kara, not Alan. 

7 MR. PAGE: I was coming to that 

8 conclusion. All right. I'm good. 

9 All right. Mr. Loeb, you're up first.

10 MR. LOEB: Let me cue myself up here.

11 MR. PAGE: All right. What is that 

12 saying? The first shall be first or last shall 

13 be first?

14 MR. LOEB: I'm sorry?

15 MR. PAGE: Nothing.

16 MR. LOEB: Sorry to be delayed.

17 MR. PAGE: That's all right.

18 MR. LOEB: I'm so --

19 MR. PAGE: Just when you're ready.

20 MR. LOEB: All right. I hope I don't run 

21 over because I have a lot to say. 

22 I'm Alan Loeb. I've worked for both 

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1 sides in this issue, both at EPA as Senior 

2 Attorney in the lead phase down, and later as 

3 council to electric utilities. But I do not 

4 represent any party that has an interest in the 

5 current rulemaking. Instead I'm speaking today 

6 as a professor of environmental policy and as a 

7 historical of air quality regulation.

8 To avoid repeating comments that have 

9 already been made I'm going to focus on issues 

10 you probably haven't heard. The theme of my 

11 comment is, those who cannot remember the past 

12 are condemned to repeat it. 

13 Let me start by saying that I support

14 EPA's proposal, however I find it much too timid. 

15 EPA proposes to reduce power plants Co2 emissions 

16 by 30 percent, which it calls a final goal. This 

17 is a good start, but as one who has worked in a 

18 program that took all the lead out, I expect 

19 something called a final goal to actually solve 

20 the problem.

21 The proposal does not say how this rule 

22 fits into the larger scheme, that is how great a 

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1 reduction would be needed to solve the problem 

2 and how much that reduction is accomplished by 

3 this rule. 

4 This is in sharp contrast to the 1970 

5 Clean Air Act amendments which gave both a number 

6 and a plan. Congress required ambient air 

7 quality standards, and for mobile sources it 

8 decided it would take out a 90 percent reduction 

9 in tail pipe emissions to get attainment. And so 

10 it set tail pipe emission standards to actually 

11 do that. 

12 So we see in history there has been a 

13 great deal of success with technology forcing, 

14 but the 30 percent reduction asked for in this 

15 rule represents a case of gradualism.

16 From the historical perspective 

17 gradualism has little benefit and may even 

18 backfire. Look at the lead phase down in the 

19 1970s. Refiners asked EPA to go slow in getting 

20 the lead out, so EPA set the reductions in phase, 

21 hence the name Lead Phase down.

22 However, when refiners started to meet 

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1 the standards they found that the gradualism they 

2 had asked for actually created inefficiencies 

3 because it cost a refinery more to set up to meet 

4 one phase, then reconfigure for the next phase, 

5 and so on. Recognizing this, some who had the 

6 capital to go forward went all unleaded all at 

7 once, which was less expensive overall, but then 

8 they had costs they couldn't recover in the short 

9 term because the standard wasn't stringent enough 

10 to create consumer demand for all the unleaded 

11 they could produce.

12 And there are a great many examples like 

13 that. 

14 Eventually the refiners realized how much 

15 they regretted all this and EPA set up a trading 

16 and banking market to let the parties work out 

17 the differences among themselves. The lesson is 

18 that unless an industry is completely uniform 

19 there will always be equity conflicts. 

20 If EPA goes slow it penalizes those who 

21 have made the investment to go fast. Rather than 

22 engage in resolving these conflicts EPA should 

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1 stick to its mission and push the technological 

2 limits. 

3 I foresee similar problems in the 

4 electricity generation sector regarding capital 

5 investment. Suppose a generation plant uses one 

6 of the building blocks, for example, it 

7 substitutes gas for coal. And then it finds out 

8 in 10 years that that's inadequate to meet a new 

9 standard EPA is proposing.

10 In that case EPA's proposal, if followed, 

11 when induced the industry -- would have induced 

12 the industry to build infrastructure it might 

13 then have to abandon. It would then of course 

14 vigorously resist the standard making it harder 

15 for EPA to go forward in its own mission. We 

16 would call that the psychology of sunk costs.

17 The lesson is that a standard that is too 

18 timid induces people to build infrastructure that 

19 will have to be taken down later in order to 

20 achieve the true final goal. So you've heard the 

21 phrase, the perfect is the enemy of the good. 

22 Well, in this case the good is the enemy of the 

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1 perfect. 

2 And further EPA seems to be counting 

3 industry to know better when to take the final 

4 standard -- better than to take the final 

5 standard as actually final. Those people in 

6 industry aren't fools. They can see the 

7 inevitable. EPA will impose future standards. 

8 So we need to put aside the charade. 

9 Let's call this an interim standard rather than a 

10 final standard, or phase one, or something of the 

11 like. Let's call it what it is.

12 Better still would be to develop a 

13 trading and banking market which we did use in 

14 the lead phase down to accelerate reductions and 

15 that resolved the equity conflicts. And that 

16 would allow EPA to accelerate, for example, the 

17 30 percent goal by five to seven years and get a 

18 50 percent or greater reduction by 2030. If we 

19 have that mechanism in place we can do more.

20 Do you know how much time I have left?

21 MR. SOLOMON: Eight seconds.

22 MR. LOEB: Huh?

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1 MR. PAGE: Eight seconds. 

2 MR. LOEB: Eight seconds. Eighty 

3 seconds?

4 MR. PAGE: Eight. Actually -- well.

5 MR. LOEB: So I thank you. There will be 

6 written comments and in those comments I am going 

7 to take up the general question of the validity 

8 of the whole notion of the climate skeptics. 

9 It's an old argument. It was developed by the 

10 refineries with lead in the 1920s, and when you 

11 look at it philosophically it's a bad idea and as 

12 always disserve the public interest.

13 MR. PAGE: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Loeb. 

14 And we'll look forward to receiving your written 

15 comments. Thank you. 

16 Kara?

17 MS. RINALDI: Thank you. Thank you for 

18 this opportunity to testify today on the EPA 

19 proposed rule.

20 MR. PAGE: Can I get you to spell your 

21 name --

22 MS. RINALDI: Oh, sure.

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1 MR. PAGE: -- for the court reporter? 

2 Sorry.

3 MS. RINALDI: Absolutely. Kara, K-A-R-A, 

4 Saul, S-A-U-L, Rinaldi, R-I-N-A-L-D-I. 

5 MR. PAGE: Thank you. Sorry for 

6 interrupting.

7 MS. RINALDI: Oh, of course. My name is 

8 Kara Saul Rinaldi, what we just covered. And I 

9 am the Vice President of Government Affairs and 

10 Policy for the Home Performance Coalition. 

11 The Home Performance Coalition is a 

12 nonprofit 501C3 that advances policy change 

13 through policy maker education, stakeholder 

14 engagement, and research.

15 First we want to applaud the 

16 Administration for this important effort to 

17 regulate carbon emissions and for the recognition 

18 in the rule that energy efficiency should be a 

19 part of the answer to carbon reductions.

20 We believe Home Performance meets the 

21 BSER test and is a crucial part of building block 

22 four in the proposed rule. In fact, with more 

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1 than 113 million residences consuming 22 percent 

2 of U.S. energy, this sector is a crucial part of 

3 any program that targets emissions reductions.

4 We are here today to offer suggestions 

5 for improvements to the draft regulations and we 

6 will provide further details in our October 16th 

7 comments.

8 We urge EPA to consider allowing states 

9 to account for natural gas savings and energy 

10 efficiency programs. While we recognize that 

11 offsets are not allowed by the Clean Air Act, we 

12 urge EPA to recognize the unintended consequences 

13 that could be associated with fuel switching and 

14 the carbon that would not be captured and 

15 measured. As well as the inefficiencies and 

16 delivery of energy efficiency services that may 

17 come by excluding efficiency gains from gas and 

18 other heating fuels under the rule.

19 For example, in the residential sector 

20 current home energy efficiency and energy home 

21 performance programs that aim to reduce the 

22 overall energy use of a home, may instead be 

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1 encouraged by the rule to switch from electric 

2 heating to natural gas heating without ensuring 

3 that this effort is coupled with air sealing and 

4 insulation. 

5 Unless the home is well insulated the 

6 opportunity to achieve potential savings through 

7 the upgrade will be lost. Further, the carbon 

8 emitted from the natural gas heater will not be 

9 measured. We recommend that EPA offer states 

10 best practices for ensuring the energy savings is 

11 maximized in residential programs.

12 Please also know that not all energy 

13 efficiency programs are created equal. Today

14 rate pair funding programs are usually required 

15 to pass a cost effectiveness test. These tests 

16 are based on five tests originally developed in 

17 the 1970's California Standard Practice Manual.

18 Despite more recent updates these tests 

19 are often implemented in ways that are biased 

20 against deeper energy efficiency investments 

21 because they do not account for all the costs, 

22 and frequently ignore many benefits.

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1 A new screen effort developed by the Home 

2 Performance Coalition and numerous partners, 

3 called the Resource Valued Framework provides a 

4 powerful tool for public utility commissions to 

5 ensure that their cost effectiveness tests are 

6 balanced, transparent, and account for public 

7 policy goals. We urge EPA to recommend the use 

8 of the RVF in states that wish to test their 111D 

9 compliance programs for cost effectiveness in 

10 order to encourage deeper energy savings 

11 opportunities. 

12 Home performance programs have many 

13 different designs as noted in the proposed rule. 

14 From deemed savings to model savings to measured 

15 savings, there are best practices that we urge 

16 EPA to include in its guidance to states 

17 developing their implementation plans. 

18 We will provide further input in our 

19 comments but as a preliminary statement we urge 

20 EPA today to consider that there are new 

21 technologies emerging every day in the market 

22 place that can assist with program design and 

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1 carbon measurement. 

2 Smart meter proliferation is providing 

3 crucial new data sources on home energy 

4 consumption. Home energy management devices from 

5 technology that measure plug load and energy 

6 current signature are further disaggregating that 

7 data. 

8 Furthermore advanced thermostats and 

9 smart phone applications are providing crucial 

10 communications between utilities and homeowners. 

11 We are at a turning point for new home 

12 energy technology and data and analytics. 

13 Standards, protocols and platforms are just being 

14 developed. We strongly recommend that EPA 

15 recognizes needs and revolution and ensure that 

16 their regulations do not close the door on new 

17 technologies and program design that encourage 

18 innovation.

19 As EPA develops its rule for evaluation 

20 measurement verification we urge the 

21 consideration of energy consumption data as 

22 provided by utilities. The data in the form of 

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1 both traditional utility bills and more advanced 

2 technologies such as smart devices and home 

3 energy management systems can provide valuable 

4 information about energy use that can contribute 

5 to accurate quantifications and savings. This 

6 information should be recognize and considered 

7 for use in EMV protocols. However, protocols and 

8 policies that allow for both data access and 

9 analytics may take time to develop. We encourage 

10 EPA to include the use of this data specifically 

11 in the EMV rules.

12 Finally and importantly we ask EPA to 

13 consider the nonrepair funded solutions to energy 

14 savings in the private sector and encourage 

15 aggregation in the development of a registry to 

16 register and retire emissions that private 

17 contractors and companies can provide to 

18 electricity reductions outside the utility 

19 programs.

20 Thank you on behalf of the Home 

21 Performance Coalition for this opportunity to 

22 testify. While there are great gains to be made 

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1 in the other 4BSERs, please ensure that continued 

2 attention is paid to the only element of the rule 

3 that directly includes small businesses and 

4 average Americans, the energy reductions in the 

5 residential sector. Thank you.

6 MR. PAGE: Great. Thank you both for 

7 your testimony. 

8 Our next speakers are Floyd Gilzow and 

9 Stefan Bogdanovic. 

10 Floyd, when you're ready.

11 MR. GILZOW: I'm ready. And before you 

12 ask, the name is Floyd, F-L-O-Y-D, last name is 

13 Gilzow, G-I-L, Z as in zebra, O-W.

14 MR. PAGE: Thank you.

15 MR. GILZOW: My name is Floyd Gilzow, 

16 Vice President of Environmental Affairs for the 

17 Missouri Joint Municipal Electric Utility 

18 Commission, a state entity representing over 60 

19 municipal electric utilities ranging in size from 

20 1200 -- or 12,000 meters -- let me try that 

21 again, 120,000 meters to as few as 200. 

22 Coincidentally I also happen to be the 

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1 former Deputy Director of the Missouri Department 

2 of Natural Resources, and in that job oversaw the 

3 state energy efficiency program for low income 

4 individuals. 

5 The EPA guidelines as written under 

6 Section 111D regrettably ignore well-established 

7 economic principles in the United States, and 

8 don't provide enough time to implement the most 

9 cost effective solutions.

10 EPA admits in their regulatory impact 

11 analysis that growth and the availability of 

12 electric power in this country has closely 

13 paralleled the growth in our economy for decades. 

14 Yet they also now claim economic growth does not 

15 require commensurate electric energy growth.

16 To whatever degree that assertion may be 

17 true nationally at a macro level, and may be 

18 differentially true for states with economies 

19 weighed towards finance, software, entertainment, 

20 and tourism, it is not accurate for states such 

21 as Missouri that still build cars, process or 

22 produce aluminum, process meat and lumber, or 

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1 have other energy intensive industries. 

2 Regulatory fiat cannot divorce the 

3 connection between base load electric power and 

4 growth in the economy. 

5 Further, the draft guidelines envision an 

6 electric generation in transmission system that 

7 will be revolutionary, not evolutionary in the 

8 near term. For instance, we may not know the 

9 details of what the State of Missouri will 

10 require until sometime in 2018. However, we will 

11 be required to start complying with the rules by 

12 2020, achieving over 82 percent of the final goal 

13 in the first nine years.

14 A period of less than two years is not 

15 long enough to make and implement decisions that 

16 will change one of the nation's largest industry 

17 sectors forever and raise customer rates by more 

18 than simple double digits for decades in the 

19 future.

20 We need at least five years from the 

21 final approved state plan to the implementation 

22 of the glide path toward final compliance. 

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1 In closing, and that may sound strange, 

2 I'd like to pose five unanswered questions not 

3 found in the draft rule that I hope EPA will 

4 consider in addressing the final rule.

5 The Supreme Court appears to say that EPA 

6 has the legal authority to limit the amount of 

7 Co2 emissions coming from an electric generating 

8 unit. But what state or federal legal authority, 

9 and I stress legal authority, can EPA cite that 

10 can force the owner of a combined cycle natural 

11 gas plant to operate their unit at 70 percent of 

12 capacity if they decide not to?

13 And if EPA can't cite that law how can we 

14 have a best available system of emission 

15 reductions that is both enforceable and 

16 measurable as EPA requires? 

17 Second, how expensive does EPA believe 

18 that electric power has to become before it curbs 

19 the general public's insatiable desire for more 

20 and more electric power? And what are the 

21 environmental justice implications of this 

22 approach for financially disadvantaged 

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1 populations since even EPA admits that the rule 

2 will raise electric bills in the short run.

3 Thirdly, the nation's natural gas system 

4 of production and distribution could not meet 

5 demands for fuel during weather extremes this 

6 past winter. In fact there were a number of 

7 power plants that could not operate because of a 

8 lack of natural gas. What changes in drilling 

9 rates and trenching for new natural gas pipelines 

10 does EPA foresee that will allow it to meet the 

11 additional demand for natural gas to generate 

12 millions of megawatt hours of electricity in 2020 

13 and beyond?

14 And what economic and environmental 

15 impacts will those shifts have on those who use 

16 natural gas for other purposes such as 

17 residential heating? 

18 Finally, how does EPA propose that states 

19 mitigate the increased exposure to extended 

20 electric power outage caused by natural disasters 

21 during hurricanes, storms, and earthquakes as 

22 pipelines are severed and pipeline pump stations 

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1 are closed down by floods? 

2 You see, coal plants generally keep 45 

3 days or more of fuel on site to deal with 

4 delivery outages. While natural gas plants have 

5 only seconds of onsite storage after a disaster.

6 My fear is the Administration is poised 

7 to make the very same major policy error that 

8 another administration made 40 years ago when 

9 they insisted that federal action rather than 

10 market place should decide whether we relied on 

11 more or less natural gas to generate electricity. 

12 Today's reliance on coal for electricity is in 

13 large part because utilities were prohibited from 

14 building natural gas plants in the 1970s by law. 

15 It's ironic that many of the coal plants these 

16 guidelines will force to close are the very same 

17 ones built when it was illegal to build natural 

18 gas plants. 

19 Thank you for the time and for your 

20 attention this afternoon.

21 MR. PAGE: Thank you, Mr. Gilzow.

22 MR. BOGDANOVIC: Thank you for the 

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1 opportunity. My name is Stefan Bogdanovic, S-T2 E-F-A-N B-O-G-D-A-N-O-V-I-C.

3 I am from Richmond, Virginia and I am 

4 with the Sierra Club, but I'm also my business in 

5 renewable energy, and solar thermal, and I am a 

6 consultant for bio diesel made out of used 

7 cooking oil.

8 I see the climate power plan as -- plan 

9 as a beginning. It is a much cheaper action than 

10 to heal and treat a sick population from asthma 

11 and cancer. It's even cheaper as double digit 

12 loss of (indiscernible)**1:46:36 because of sick 

13 days. It's also cheaper than destruction of sea 

14 level rise. 

15 The U.S.A. signed up, but did not ratify 

16 the cure protocol to reduce emissions of 

17 greenhouse gas by 5.2 percent. This took place 

18 in 1997 and came into power in 2005. It is time 

19 to act now, to reduce carbon dioxide, 

20 (indiscernible)**14655 sulfur, emissions from 

21 power sector to achieve the state's specific 

22 goals.

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1 The guidelines for states should be 

2 strictly controlled by the EPA and loopholes 

3 should be closed. 

4 In Virginia, particularly a matter of 

5 coal plants and coal transport on streets is 

6 visual as such dust on outside surface is 

7 everywhere.

8 I expect from the climate power plan, 

9 even more support for renewable energy resources 

10 with tax credits, grants, and other possibilities 

11 and not any limitation or quantity regulations. 

12 For example the EPA should not postpone 

13 what it's doing now where it waited a long time 

14 announcing referring production quantities or 

15 (indiscernible)**14738 to frighten bio diesel 

16 producers.

17 According to the EPA bio diesel made out 

18 of used cooking oil and other waste is 

19 sustainable. Introduce greenhouse gas emissions 

20 so carbon dioxide by up to 86 percent when 

21 compared with petroleum diesel. It contains 

22 reduced up to -- it contains very high oxygen, 11 

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1 percent, sulfur is reduced to 98 percent, inside 

2 emissions are reduced to 50 percent, and 

3 carcinogenic substances are dramatically reduced. 

4 For example the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons 

5 are reduced by 98 percent. After 21 days bio 

6 diesel is fully biodegradable. 

7 I ask for more legislative support for 

8 bio diesel made of used cooking oil as a perfect 

9 way for reuse and create clean fuels. I support 

10 every EPA effort to reduce environmental impact 

11 from coal and risky technology, and I'm talking 

12 about fracking and shale gas. 

13 I believe in the cost effectiveness of

14 renewable energy as a way to address climate 

15 change, and I have created the profitable, 

16 sustainable, worldwide business. Thank you.

17 MR. PAGE: Thank you all very much. If 

18 you want to submit your testimony to the front 

19 desk, that would be great. Thank you.

20 We're going to have the next two speakers 

21 come up. Michael Hornsby and Bernadette 

22 Lemasters, and after that we'll take about a 10, 

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1 15 minute break. Mr. Hornsby, we've got you up 

2 first. If you'll spell your name for the court 

3 reporter that would be great.

4 MR. HORNSBY: Thank you. Michael 

5 Hornsby, H-O-R-N-S-B-Y. From New Jersey, 

6 representing myself.

7 I'm here today to testify in support of 

8 EPA's Clean Power Plan in the proposed 111D 

9 regulations. 

10 Climate change is a clear and present 

11 danger to our economic, our environment, our 

12 health and safety, and our national security. 

13 A carbon tax, an economy wide revenue 

14 neutral carbon tax is probably the best platform 

15 to deliver carbon reductions. Since we 

16 apparently lack the political will to do that, at 

17 least at present, EPA's proposed regulations are 

18 the next best choice. 

19 Since power plants are the largest source 

20 of carbon emissions its entirely appropriate that 

21 EPA's regulations focus on these power plants. 

22 As a volunteer firefighter I see 

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1 firsthand the hurricanes, flooding, lightening 

2 strikes, and other extreme weather events that 

3 are happening on an increasing basis. This needs 

4 to be turned around.

5 The United Sates likes to view ourselves 

6 as the indispensible nation. Well, there 

7 couldn't be a clearer case to be that 

8 indispensible nation right now and take 

9 leadership on climate change. Thank you.

10 MR. PAGE: Thank you very much. 

11 Bernadette.

12 MS. LEMASTERS: My name is Bernadette 

13 Lemasters. That's B-E-R-N-A-D-E-T-T-E L-E-M-A-S14 T-E-R-S. And I'm here representing myself. I'm 

15 also currently a graduate student at George Mason 

16 University but I'm not getting any credits for 

17 being here. 

18 I'm really excited to be here. I love 

19 hearing debate, back and forth, actually talking 

20 through these issues. And the fact that we're 

21 here to discuss the pros and cons of this 

22 approach is really heartening.

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1 I wanted to come here just to make a very 

2 simple point because I still hear back and forth 

3 on some very simple basic concepts. We can talk 

4 about cost, implementation, effectiveness of this 

5 approach, whether it's going too far, it's not 

6 going far enough, both sides questioning these 

7 things. But just to think about how incredible 

8 is it that we, as human beings, can even have an 

9 effect on our climate. And in theory this is 

10 whether or not you believe this is currently even 

11 happening. But just the idea that we can by 

12 changing the composition of the atmosphere, can 

13 change the climate, and just the implications of 

14 that. 

15 When we've approach natural disasters 

16 previously we've changed our terrain; we've 

17 restructured rivers, we've done flood gates, and 

18 we've seen unintended consequences of these 

19 things. But we're actually here at a point where 

20 we can change the climate itself, and affect the 

21 likelihood and severity of natural disasters like 

22 hurricanes, droughts, and heat waves. 

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1 In the past when we've seen ourselves 

2 with these abilities we've tended to use it for 

3 our advantage and that's been the norm. And I'm 

4 not saying that we need to tamper the atmosphere 

5 to put it to our advantage. I'd be more 

6 comfortable with just leaving it untampered. But 

7 my point is that we're actually doing the 

8 opposite of the norm. 

9 We not only have evidence that we can 

10 impact our climate but that we're doing so to our 

11 own detriment. And there's been discussions of 

12 winners and losers of global warming, but overall 

13 we are taking -- we are talking greater severity 

14 and greater frequency of natural disasters. We 

15 are talking about greater likelihood of species, 

16 especially those that are not very mobile or that 

17 are sensitive to temperatures going extinct. We 

18 are talking about pressures on our natural 

19 resources. Water is a huge discussion right now. 

20 Water being stressed as water resources melt or 

21 dry up sooner than expected with an accelerated 

22 water cycle.

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1 And if you believe that we are in an area 

2 which we can affect our own climate it makes 

3 sense to monitor these activities. And I really, 

4 I think our government has done a wonderful job 

5 monitoring these activities. 

6 And then if we see that we're going in a 

7 direction to our detriment, managing it. 

8 And for too long we've been stuck on even 

9 just these very basic concepts. But I am 

10 heartened that on both sides of the aisle there 

11 are some folks who do agree that we're having an 

12 effect on our climate. Let's monitor it and then 

13 let's also manage it if we see ourselves going in 

14 the direction of our detriment.

15 I'm heartened by this regulation because 

16 we are talking about what is the most cost 

17 effective, what is feasible, what is -- where are 

18 the unintended consequences. This regulation, we 

19 ask most states to set goals, but we leave a lot 

20 of the decision making to the states so that they 

21 can tailor how they want to manage emissions in a 

22 way that's feasible, in a way that's cost 

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1 effective for their situation for their energy 

2 portfolio. 

3 And there's a lot of expertise and a lot 

4 of resources to be tapped. At my own university 

5 I see there's a lot of programs, a lot of 

6 excitement among the students to get involved in 

7 energy efficiency businesses related to the 

8 different -- using market incentives at utility 

9 companies, energy efficiency, retrofitting homes. 

10 So basically I am heartened that we are moving 

11 beyond the basic questions and into the real 

12 debates. 

13 And just speaking from what I've seen of 

14 nonprofits, for profits in my own university, we 

15 have the interest, we have the expertise and the 

16 impetus. So let's make things more energy 

17 efficient and let's reduce the greenhouse gases.

18 MR. PAGE: Great. Thank you both for 

19 your testimony today. We appreciate it. 

20 At this point we're going to take about a 

21 10 minute break. We'll reconvene about 10 after 

22 3:00. 

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1 (Recess from 2:57 p.m. until 3:15 p.m.)

2 MR. PAGE: We're going to resume our 

3 hearing and in case you all weren't here earlier 

4 we have a ground rule of speaking for five 

5 minutes. We're welcoming any testimony. If you 

6 don't finish your statement we're glad to take

7 any testimony you have today that you can get 

8 through, or by October 16th is the deadline for 

9 submitting testimony.

10 MS. PIEN: If we have extra copies to 

11 leave with you?

12 MR. PAGE: Please leave those at the 

13 desk. The gentleman standing there by the door 

14 will be glad to take them from you. We love 

15 written testimony to accompany the verbal as 

16 well.

17 MS. PIEN: Okay.

18 MR. PAGE: All right? Our first speaker 

19 is Natalie Pien. Is that --

20 MS. PIEN: Pien, yes.

21 MR. PAGE: Pien. Good. And Andrea 

22 McGinsey will follow. And if you guys will stay 

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1 at the table until both of you are finished, 

2 that's great. Okay? 

3 Natalie, when you're ready.

4 MS. PIEN: Okay.

5 MR. PAGE: And please spell your name for 

6 the court reporter.

7 MS. PIEN: Okay. My name is Natalie, N8 A-T-A-L-I-E, Pien, P-I-E-N. 

9 Hello. My name is Natalie Pien and I am 

10 from nearby Leesburg, Virginia. Thank you for 

11 the opportunity to speak to you today.

12 I am here to support strong regulations 

13 for carbon dioxide emissions from existing 

14 electric power plants. I will speak first as a 

15 mother, then as a teacher, our church Green Team 

16 co-leader, an environmental activist, and finally 

17 as a responsible human being.

18 I am blessed with two beautiful daughters 

19 who are pursuing their life's passion. My older 

20 daughter, Rene is living in Montreal, Canada 

21 studying set and costume design at the National 

22 Theater School of Canada. My younger daughter, 

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1 Elise, is studying physical therapy at Old 

2 Dominion University in Norfolk, Virginia. Elisa 

3 is the one I'm concerned about.

4 Norfolk is the second most vulnerable 

5 area in terms of sea level rise and it is already 

6 subject to recurrent flooding. Norfolk will 

7 become the next New Orleans when it sustains the 

8 impact of a hurricane. Luckily Superstorm Sandy 

9 did not strike Norfolk. But luck cannot be 

10 depended on.

11 Elise, through no fault of her own, is 

12 living in harm's way. Mothers worry a lot about 

13 things. The impact of climate change should not 

14 be one of them. 

15 I have had two wonderful careers. First 

16 as an environmental scientist working in the 

17 public sector, then as a science teacher in 

18 Loudon County Public Schools.

19 For the past 15 years I've co-sponsored 

20 an ecology club and helped our school be 

21 recognized as a Virginia Naturally school. This 

22 is a picture of the pollinator garden in front of 

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1 the school. Here are ecology club students 

2 planting or constructing raised bed vegetable 

3 gardens and harvesting.

4 Regrettably the environmental stewardship 

5 my students have developed is not recognized by 

6 today's adults who are in power. Instead of 

7 stewardship the Earth is exploited for its 

8 natural resources. These people place short term 

9 profits over long term sustainability, public 

10 health, and safety. 

11 I also work with adults. I am the Green 

12 Team co-chair at my church, the Unitarian 

13 Universals Church of Loudon. I joined the 

14 Unitarian faith for many reasons, chief of which 

15 is its seventh principle, respect for the 

16 interdependent web of life of all existence of 

17 which we are a part. This guiding principle 

18 recognizes the truths that we depend on nature 

19 and that our behavior affects nature. 

20 At church the Green Team has initiated 

21 environmentally friendly practices, organized 

22 green sermons, hosted the first annual Loudon 

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1 interfaith bridges meeting focused on climate 

2 change, promoting several climate change 

3 petitions including one that led to the recent 

4 national Unitarian Universals Association 

5 unanimously voting to adopt the resolution to 

6 divest from the fossil fuel industry.

7 As current chair of 350 Loudon, a local 

8 chapter of Bill McKibben's international 350.org, 

9 I am privileged to work with other activists who 

10 are passionate about raising awareness of climate 

11 change in conservative Loudon County. 

12 We have spoken publically on issues that 

13 exacerbate climate change to many regulatory 

14 bodies, including our own County Board of 

15 Supervisors, our representatives to the Virginia 

16 Assembly, the Virginia State Corporation 

17 Commission, and of course to you.

18 We host local climate change rallies, as 

19 well as participate in regional and national 

20 rallies. We reach out to the community in many 

21 ways such as multifilms, exhibiting at community 

22 festivals, marching in local parades, and writing 

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1 letters to the editor.

2 One of our members, Jerry Lee Stuart, is 

3 in the middle of the Great March for Climate, 

4 walking from California to Washington, D.C. 

5 As a responsible human aware of climate 

6 change, I strive to live a sustainable lifestyle. 

7 My husband and I designed and built a passive 

8 solar home. A few years ago we added solar 

9 photovoltaic panels that provide 100 percent of 

10 our electrical energy needs from May until 

11 October.

12 The last car we purchased was a Honda 

13 Insight hybrid, and our next car will be a plug14 in electric hybrid with a range to meet our daily 

15 commuting needs. We have a vegetable garden and 

16 freeze vegetables in the winter. We shop at our 

17 local farmers markets, supporting the local 

18 economy while reducing greenhouse gas emissions 

19 from long distance transportation of food.

20 We also adopted a more environmentally 

21 friendly diet by becoming vegetarians. Some 

22 experts estimate that vegetarians reduce their 

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1 carbon footprint by as much as 50 percent.

2 As you can see, my husband and I have 

3 taken many steps towards reducing our carbon 

4 footprint and living in an environmentally 

5 friendly way. I have done my best to be a 

6 champion for the environment and to fight climate 

7 change. 

8 Today I am asking you to do your best to 

9 stop electric power plants from freely polluting 

10 our vital air resource. The price of carbon 

11 pollution must be paid by the polluter, not the 

12 people, through increased health care costs, 

13 infrastructure costs, or insurance costs. 

14 Your regulations would be an essential 

15 step towards reducing our nation's greenhouse gas 

16 emissions and transitioning from a fossil fuel 

17 energy based economy to a clean renewable energy 

18 based economy.

19 The air we breathe is an essential common 

20 resource for everyone and it must be protected. 

21 We owe it today to our children and tomorrow for 

22 future generations. Thank you.

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1 MR. PAGE: Thank you. Andrea. 

2 MS. MCGIMSEY: Good afternoon. My name 

3 is Andrea McGimsey. I live in Leesburg, 

4 Virginia. I’m a former member of the Loudon 

5 County Board of Supervisors, and I am a volunteer 

6 climate leader with Climate Reality Project. 

7 I'm speaking to you today as a deeply 

8 concerned citizen about the most important issue 

9 facing mankind, climate change. 

10 I fully support the EPA's plans to 

11 regulate carbon emissions from power plants, and 

12 I urge you to move forward as quickly as 

13 possible. We have fiddled for too long as the 

14 world around us is literally burning, and we must 

15 reduce our carbon emissions as rapidly as 

16 possible.

17 When I listen to the National Academy of 

18 Sciences, the professors at my alma mater, MIT, 

19 scientists in my home state of Virginia, I grow 

20 increasingly worried and feel a tremendous sense 

21 of urgency. 

22 Please use my tax dollars and your power 

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1 to regulate fossil fuel burning, including the 

2 current plans to regulate carbon emissions from 

3 power plants.

4 We are already suffering the consequences 

5 of our profligate burning of fossil fuels, and 

6 the increase of greenhouse gases, which is 

7 changing the world around us. The droughts, 

8 fires, floods, huge snowstorms, the wild winds of 

9 the recent derecho, and Hurricane Sandy, and this 

10 weird weather in July here in Virginia and D.C., 

11 are endangering human lives, our prosperity, our 

12 homes, our businesses. 

13 Local governments are overwhelmed and do 

14 not have the money to respond. Trees that have 

15 stood for centuries, witnessing the founding of 

16 our country are dying due to the heat wave and 

17 stress from the drought. Wildlife on land and in 

18 the ocean is going extinct. Our ability to grow 

19 food is decreasing due to droughts, floods, and 

20 fires. Homes and businesses are blowing over or 

21 being swept away. When are we going to fully 

22 wake up as a society and realize that our very 

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1 lives, and our economies are being threatened.

2 I'm deeply appreciative of the EPA's work 

3 on climate change and these proposed rules to 

4 regulate power plants emissions. 

5 Power plants are the largest source of 

6 carbon pollution, producing more than one third 

7 of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions. These rules 

8 are a cost effective and crucial way to reduce 

9 those emissions and will result in better public 

10 health from reduction of many additional harmful 

11 byproducts of power plants.

12 Climate deniers and fossil fuel lobbyists

13 have freedom of speech in this country. However, 

14 they do not have the right to yell fire in a 

15 movie theater, and they do not have the right to 

16 endanger my present and the future of the 

17 children I love so much. 

18 The citizens of this country are waking 

19 up to climate change and working to make a 

20 difference in our own lives. But we need our 

21 government to create the systemic and large 

22 changes needed to reduce carbon emissions in our 

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1 collective air and atmosphere. 

2 For the sake of Kesinia, Ilya, and the 

3 other young people whom I deeply love, please 

4 listen to us citizens who only have our children 

5 at stake, more than those who are arguing for the 

6 profits from fossil fuels. They do not have the 

7 right to harm our future.

8 In the spring of 2008 I stood in front of 

9 the Capitol with Senator John Warner and other 

10 elected officials, standing together in a 

11 bipartisan way to support the Climate Security 

12 Act. Unfortunately Federal elected leaders 

13 lacked the courage to move forward on this most 

14 urgent of issues. Someday soon I hope they will.

15 In the meantime the EPA and other

16 government agencies must do everything in their 

17 power to reduce carbon emissions.

18 Thank you for considering my comments. 

19 It's wonderful to live in a country where I can 

20 speak my mind and where you listen. Thank you.

21 MR. PAGE: Thank you. Thank you both for 

22 you testimony today. Appreciate it.

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1 Our next speakers are Kenneth Ward and 

2 Rachael Rogier. Rachael, I think you'll probably 

3 have to help me out on the pronunciation.

4 MS. ROGIER: You actually got it right.

5 MR. PAGE: Did I really?

6 MS. ROGIER: Yeah.

7 MR. PAGE: Okay. Wow, that's a first. 

8 Okay. Kenneth, you're up first.

9 MR. WARD: Good morning. Or good 

10 afternoon. My name is Ken Ward, W-A-R-D. I 

11 represent myself. I'm here from Corbett, Oregon. 

12 Thank you for the opportunity to comment on the 

13 EPA's proposed rule. 

14 When my 14 year old boy asked me why I 

15 was going to fly across the country to speak for 

16 five minutes I gave him a kind of a, Mr. Smith 

17 Goes to Washington civic, which he didn't quite 

18 buy.

19 But I think that I'm actually here, as I 

20 suspect many other speakers are, out of fear. 

21 I'm scared that we're at a singular moment when 

22 my boy's future and that of his generation and 

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1 other generations is on the line. And I don't 

2 think that we're doing the right thing. So I 

3 thought I -- as one individual I can't do much to 

4 influence the vast powers at play here, but at 

5 least I can take the opportunity to show up. And 

6 that way if my boy asks me what the heck 

7 happened, working on his language now, you know, 

8 I'll say I've done everything I could.

9 The challenge, I've often heard compared 

10 to what the U.S. effort in World War II. Not 

11 that it's the most logical thing to think about 

12 on the scale of what we need to do. And I think 

13 that's useful in imagining what's necessary to 

14 survive, but it's problematic because America did 

15 very little to prepare for that war. 

16 After Pearl Harbor, however, the nation 

17 moved with incredible speed. And I didn't know 

18 any of these statistics but I looked them up 

19 recently. We got bombed on December 7th, 

20 automobiles of which there were 3 million 

21 manufactured and sold that year, sales were 

22 frozen on January 1st, and all auto manufacturing 

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1 was switched to wartime production by February 

2 22nd. So that's less than two months to 

3 completely shift the largest industrial operation 

4 in the nation.

5 I think that that's what we should be 

6 doing here, in terms of moving from coal to 

7 renewables and efficiency, with that kind of 

8 speed and determination, because we've already 

9 had our Pearl Harbor.

10 In May, a month before this rule was 

11 released, NASA's Eric Rignot and colleagues, and 

12 an independent group at the University of 

13 Washington, reported that the West Antarctic ice 

14 shelf is now in unstoppable collapse, which by 

15 itself is staggering because that's four feet of 

16 sea level rise that is definite.

17 But more profoundly it shatters any 

18 notion that climate change is some moderate and 

19 far off threat. The worst case is happening and 

20 it's happening at a speed that not even our most 

21 worried experts imagined. 

22 I read John Henson's report, the Slippery 

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1 Slope, when it came out in 2004. Well, it was 

2 scary enough at the time, but even then Henson 

3 was talking about the possibility of ice sheet 

4 collapse by occurring in the order of centuries 

5 not millennium, and now we're looking at decades 

6 and years. 

7 And the rule is, the EPA rule itself is 

8 supporting documents in any of the public 

9 statements I read. There is one reference to 

10 that kind of understanding of a problem, which 

11 was Administrator McCarthy's comment that if we 

12 do nothing temperatures could rise 10 degrees and 

13 seas could rise by four feet. Which should be --

14 even if we do everything seas will rise by four 

15 feet. But maybe more.

16 But nothing that I read in the proposed 

17 rule or within the all of above energy policy, 

18 really in any way addresses this level of risk. 

19 It seems to me that we need to stop burning coal 

20 now, keep it in the ground. When this plan aims 

21 for 30 percent of our electricity to come from 

22 coal through 2030 and maybe beyond. 

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1 We need a swift and dramatic change from 

2 fossil fuels to efficiency and renewables. This 

3 plan looks for 60 percent reliance on fossil 

4 fuels and is far more concerned with promoting 

5 nuclear power than solar and wind. 

6 And we need to mobilize the nation where 

7 this plan it seems to me, it dumbs down risk, and 

8 in effect promises to solve the problem. 

9 I don't believe those who say that the 

10 President is kind of cynically avoiding some sort 

11 of tough political fight or advancing some 

12 special interest or another. I think that the 

13 President is in an extremely tough political 

14 bind, facing determined opposition which is still 

15 able to focus the debate on whether there is any 

16 such thing as climate change, as Senator Inhofe

17 did yesterday. And I think this plan seems 

18 crafted primarily to win in these political, 

19 tough political conditions. 

20 And it is, certainly seems to me, a 

21 masterful political design, a hat trick that it 

22 manages to mute the opposition with 

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1 (indiscernible)**16:54 reference here at 2005 

2 rather than 2012, and helps isolate the total 

3 denial crowd by its very reasonableness, and 

4 still has environmentalists calling it bold and 

5 courageous. 

6 But winning at the cost of the truth 

7 isn't worth and won't work in the long run. I 

8 think the problems of the plan can be summed up 

9 in three points. 

10 The plan, as presented, is intended to be 

11 a significant step towards meeting U.S. 

12 commitment in Cancun. The Cancun pledges, even 

13 if they were met, will mean reaching 550 parts 

14 per million atmospheric carbon, and the climate 

15 right now is in free-fall at 400 percent -- 400 

16 parts per million; is heading with unbelievable 

17 speed towards conditions which global ecosystems 

18 will collapse and civilization cannot sustain.

19 It's hard for me to see the plan isn't 

20 frivolous in comparison with what needs to be 

21 done, and that if this is the best that the U.S. 

22 political conditions allow, then we will in fact 

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1 condemn this generation and future generations to 

2 a planet that's beyond fixing. But I think we're 

3 better than that when called.

4 So I urge that this rule be withdrawn. 

5 In its place, that the President should present a 

6 graver, franker explanation of the fix we're in 

7 and put forward a serious plan of action that 

8 acts over months and not decades. 

9 In the words of President Lincoln, dogmas 

10 of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy 

11 present. We must disenthrall ourselves and then 

12 we shall save our country. 

13 The timeslot that I was given was 3:50 

14 p.m., which I thought was incredibly appropriate, 

15 as that is the number that we should be shooting 

16 for, or lower, and I thank you for the 

17 opportunity to comment.

18 MR. PAGE: Thank you, Mr. Ward. Thank 

19 you for coming so far to speak your piece. Thank 

20 you.

21 Rachael.

22 MS. ROGIER: Good afternoon. I'm Rachael 

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1 Rogier and I'm with Arch Coal, and I appreciate 

2 having the opportunity to give our comments.

3 MR. PAGE: Could you spell your last name 

4 for the court reporter?

5 MS. ROGIER: R-O-G-I-E-R.

6 MR. PAGE: Thank you.

7 MS. ROGIER: Power generators 

8 transformation of our coal and that of other 

9 producers into low-cost stable flow of 

10 electricity is a vital national service that is 

11 now in jeopardy due to the proposal. Proposal 

12 threatens continued domestic coal utilization at 

13 present or historical levels in hope of any 

14 global climate change who not meaningfully or 

15 economically deliver on this objective. 

16 U.S. power plants are responsible for a 

17 relatively small percentage of global greenhouse 

18 gas emissions. Around 4 percent. 

19 The proposal will reduce global 

20 greenhouse gas emissions by less than one percent 

21 at a cost projected by the Agency of $4.2 to $8.8 

22 billion per year. 

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1 Reducing coal utilization for power 

2 generation will result in rising electricity

3 prices and reduce power reliability for American 

4 consumers. EPA estimates that the rule will 

5 increase electricity prices between six and seven 

6 percent nationally in 2012. That increase 

7 matched substantially higher increases in 

8 individual states, including many whose current 

9 low electricity rates are possible thanks to 

10 coal.

11 Rate increases will fall 

12 disproportionately on the least advantaged 

13 economically of our society, who will be forced 

14 to pay a portion more of their income for 

15 electricity. This increase will also place a 

16 significant burden on U.S. businesses for which 

17 affordable energy provides critical operating 

18 advantage and competitive global markets, 

19 particularly for goods and services from sectors 

20 in which energy is a major cost.

21 Lastly the prices of all goods and 

22 services will increase, further harming more 

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1 consumers. Power supply in the U.S. is reliable 

2 because of adequate nonintermittent base load 

3 generating capacity. The primary fuel power in 

4 this (indiscernible)**20:56 is coal. It is 

5 sourced by U.S. power generators predominantly 

6 from domestic supply sources which have limited 

7 alternative domestic and foreign markets.

8 At most coal fired EGUs stockpiles are 

9 maintained to act as a buffer against 

10 transportation related delays. EPA proposes in 

11 its regulation at the expense of coal fire 

12 generation to increase the share of electricity 

13 generated from natural gas, which is a variety of 

14 alternative markets outside the power generation 

15 sector, whether home and abroad.

16 These markets include residential, 

17 commercial, and industrial space heating, 

18 industrial applications such as 

19 (indiscernible)**21:32 and exportable fuel in the 

20 form of liquefied natural gas.

21 Unlike coal, natural gas is delivered to 

22 power plants via pipeline systems on a just in 

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1 time basis. As witnessed during this last severe 

2 winter, deliverability on particularly cold days 

3 can be subject to pipeline capacity constraints. 

4 Under extreme circumstances in certain areas of 

5 the country it could lead to inadequate natural 

6 gas deliverability for residential, commercial, 

7 industrial, and power generation applications, 

8 resulting in the limitation or displacement of 

9 supply to one or more of these sectors.

10 Having examined the proposed regulations 

11 price and reliability concerns it is worthwhile 

12 to scrutinize closely the permissibility and 

13 feasibility of what EPA interprets as 

14 constituting a best system of emission reduction.

15 Arch believes that Section 111D provides 

16 EPA with nary authority to set emission standards 

17 based solely on emission reductions that can be 

18 achieved inside the fence line. As such, only 

19 the Co2 emissions reductions resulting from 

20 actions taken under building block one may 

21 lawfully be recognized. 

22 Building blocks two to four, as proposed 

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1 by the Agency are outside the fence line and the 

2 Agency does not have the expansive statutory 

3 authority to recognize them as BESR. 

4 Even if permissible it is not at all 

5 clear that it is feasible for the states to meet 

6 the proposed required emission reductions. Under 

7 building block one, EPA posits that a six percent 

8 improvement in heat rates is possible, with four 

9 percent coming from adopting, operating, and 

10 maintenance best practices.

11 Another two percent improvement is to 

12 stem from equipment upgrades. In the case of the 

13 former EPA presumes that plant operators do not 

14 already run and maintain their facilities 

15 according to best practices so as to minimize 

16 unit power production costs. 

17 If they are already doing so the 

18 potential to achieve a four percent heat rate 

19 improvement may prove (indiscernible)**23:23.

20 As for the former, the new source review 

21 process makes equipment upgrades a risky 

22 potentially litigious proposition for operators 

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1 and discourages them from undertaking them.

2 Given these reasons, outside the fence 

3 line actions as detailed under building blocks 

4 two to four are necessary for states to comply 

5 with the proposed regulations. Each of the 

6 building blocks, however, is also fraught with 

7 uncertainty.

8 Building block two -- oh, excuse me. For 

9 example, building block two, increased 

10 utilization of combined cycle natural gas power 

11 plants presupposes that pipeline infrastructure 

12 is adequate or can be built to enable plants to 

13 operate at 70 percent capacity factors.

14 Building block three, it seems that the 

15 existing fleet of nuclear plants, that there will 

16 be no additional unit retirements, regardless of 

17 market conditions potentially making it 

18 uneconomic for some units to run. 

19 As for renewables, EPA assumes their 

20 growth can occur despite their 

21 (indiscernible)**24:18 making it progressively 

22 harder to balance load and run base load plants 

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1 efficiently and (indiscernible)**24:23. 

2 Finally, for building block four, demand 

3 side energy efficiency, EPA outlines what is 

4 feasible assuming that all states implement the 

5 necessary policies to achieve an annualized 

6 savings rate of 1.5 percent. It is not clear 

7 that states will be able to achieve such 

8 reductions without constraints or even stalling 

9 economic growth. Thank you.

10 MR. PAGE: Thank you both for your 

11 testimony today. We appreciate you coming here. 

12 And if you want to submit any written testimony 

13 to the folks outside, we'd be glad to accept that 

14 too. Appreciate it.

15 And now our next speaker is Senator 

16 Manchin from West Virginia. Thank you very much, 

17 sir.

18 MR. MANCHIN: Thank you. Thank you so 

19 much, to Mr. Page, Mr. Solomon, Mr. Sherry, I 

20 thank you all for this. 

21 I appreciate the chance to discuss today 

22 an issue vital to the past, present, and future, 

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1 not only my state, our nation, and the world.

2 On June 3rd President Obama and the EPA 

3 released this proposed rule to control carbon 

4 dioxide emissions from existing fossil fuel power 

5 plants. As I've stressed throughout this 

6 process, our nation needs to strike the right 

7 balance between energy needs and the global 

8 environmental concerns. And I am very concerned 

9 that the EPA's new carbon emissions rule does not 

10 adequately strike that balance.

11 As we have conversations about creating 

12 our future energy policies, we often overlook the 

13 human impact and the citizens who depend on 

14 reliable affordable energy every day. We need to 

15 keep in mind how expensive electricity costs 

16 already area, and all those who bear the brunt of 

17 the government's decisions.

18 Think about the families who are 

19 struggling to pay their bills every month, our 

20 seniors who spend more time in their homes than 

21 most, but who cannot afford excessive heating or 

22 cooling bills, and our businesses that rely more 

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1 than ever before on electric power to boot their 

2 computers, charge their technology and power the 

3 equipment they need to be successful.

4 Think about the economic calamity we 

5 face. Not just across America, but around the 

6 world, if the lights went out or became too 

7 costly to use. 

8 There's no question that global warming 

9 is real, and that 7 billion people have impacted 

10 the world's climate. There's also no doubt that 

11 fossil fuels will be part of our energy portfolio 

12 for years to come. Those who choose not to 

13 believe that are deniers. We have too many 

14 deniers on both sides. 

15 This debate is about affordability and 

16 reliability, not just desirability. Fossil fuel 

17 energy is vital to our nation's economy and 

18 security. Fossil fuels currently provide 68 

19 percent of our country's electric generation. 

20 The Administration's own energy information 

21 administration projects coal and gas will 

22 continue to provide almost 64 percent of our 

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1 power through 2030, and that coal will comprise 

2 31 percent of that power. 

3 Fossil fuels, especially coal, are vital 

4 right now in keep electricity affordable. In 

5 West Virginia, for example, the average 

6 electricity price in March was 7.5 percent per 

7 kilowatt hour. That has increased quite a bit 

8 even since these figures came out in March.

9 On the coast electricity prices are often 

10 above 15 cents per kilowatt hour, double. The 

11 importance of coal reliability was never clearer 

12 than during the polar vortex this past winter. 

13 Because of the weather natural gas supply was low 

14 and demand was very high, not only for 

15 electricity generation but also to heat the homes 

16 and power businesses. Gas supply actually 

17 declined compared to the year before because of 

18 transporting it. Prices skyrocketed as you all 

19 know.

20 Coal, on the other hand, provided 92 

21 percent of the generation increase that was 

22 required to avoid the blackouts and the ensuing 

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1 tragedy. As one electric CEO said, we dodged a 

2 cannon ball, and coal was the reason why.

3 The economic contributions of coal are 

4 also enormous. Coal is minded in 25 states and 

5 provides more than 760,000 good paying jobs. In 

6 addition to electricity coal is required for the 

7 production of steel, cement, paper, plastics, 

8 water purification, and electronics. And coal 

9 isn't going away around the world any time soon. 

10 By 2040 it is estimated that China will 

11 get 62 percent of it is electricity from coal. 

12 India will get 56 percent, and developing 

13 countries in Southeast Asia will get up to 30 

14 percent.

15 Construction of some 1,200, and I repeat, 

16 1,200 new coal plants across the world is being 

17 planned in 59 countries. In two countries alone 

18 363 are to be built in China, 455 in India. The 

19 world consumes more than 8 billion tons of coal 

20 per year. And as we've done time and time again 

21 with products used around the world, the U.S. 

22 must lead the way in development of better and 

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1 cleaner technologies. 

2 We use less than 1 billion tons in 

3 America. So, you can see the majority of the 

4 coal being consumed in the world is in other 

5 parts of the world. 

6 We won't make progress on climate change 

7 any other way. Many know that traditional 

8 pollutants, sulfur, nitrogen, mercury, and 

9 particulates have all been cut from coal 

10 emissions by 80 percent or more. What is less 

11 known is that utilities and their providers have 

12 already reduced carbon emissions by 23 percent 

13 compared to the 2005 levels. Twenty-three 

14 percent compared to 2005 levels. 

15 A couple of things the President has said 

16 have encouraged me. Recently the president 

17 stated that we need new technology to break the 

18 old rules. He also said that opposition to this 

19 rule reflected a lack of faith in American 

20 business and American ingenuity. And at West 

21 Point he said American influence is always 

22 stronger when we lead by example.

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1 Here's a great example. The coal fleets 

2 of China, India, and Australia are much newer 

3 than ours; much newer than ours. But their 

4 average thermal efficiency is not better than 

5 ours. It's actually worse. 

6 U.S. technology will be the answer, as it 

7 always has been. We can make the President's 

8 statements come true with policies that boost 

9 public private sector coordination we will finish 

10 the first carbon caption storage plants and 

11 develop the second generation. When that happens 

12 we will be able to use fossil fuels while 

13 producing almost no emissions. 

14 Research and development in coal 

15 technologies have provided great value to tax 

16 payers. A return of $13 for every $1 of federal 

17 funding. Our efforts will require the kind of 

18 commitment the President talked about. I've 

19 taken several recent actions to address the 

20 future of coal in our country. Some of these 

21 have already been successful. 

22 The administration agreed to a request to 

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1 extend the comment period for the existing source 

2 rule to 120 days, and I'm very appreciative. DOE 

3 lowered its application fees for loan guarantees 

4 to build advance fossil fuel projects. Much much 

5 more needs to be done. I hope the Administration 

6 will join me in these efforts.

7 For example, the Department of Energy 

8 currently has $8 billion, $8 billion in loan 

9 guarantees available for advanced fossil 

10 projects. Now these guarantees were authorized 

11 in 2005. So I'm saying they must now immediately 

12 go to the plant project so that we can lead the 

13 world in developing the cleaner technology that's 

14 going to be needed.

15 Similarly the DOE has had $1.7 billion 

16 available since the 2009 for the advanced fossil 

17 fuel grants. These funds must also be made 

18 available immediately. We need to remove current 

19 rules that prohibit advanced fossil fuel programs 

20 from receiving federal grants and loan 

21 guarantees, at the same time, and remove 

22 regulatory impediments that delay or discourage 

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1 efficiency projects.

2 We must ensure DOE uses its statutory 

3 authority to make sure that EPA rules don't 

4 endanger grid reliability. We must provide tax 

5 incentives for efficiency upgrades at existing 

6 plants. Carbon capture and storage or CCS as we 

7 know it, and use of Co2 for commercial purposes.

8 Finally, we need to recognize that Russia 

9 is proceeding to cut of natural gas shipments to 

10 Ukraine. America needs to help Ukraine. And I 

11 can think of no better way than using our clean 

12 coal technology to advance their energy security 

13 with the great amounts of reserves they have. 

14 The XM Bank can help provide that funding. 

15 If we get these rules wrong and miss the 

16 opportunities before us, we'll compromise 

17 reliability and lose the low price energy needed 

18 to grow our economy. We won't deploy 

19 technologies that will enable us to use coal 

20 cleaner and in the future. Not just in America, 

21 but all over the world. American ingenuity

22 should be harnessed right now, not restrained, to 

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1 ensure our future at home and to be a leader for 

2 the world.

3 As I continue to work with my colleagues 

4 to reduce our nation's carbon emissions, job 

5 creation, energy production, and our economic 

6 future will remain our top priorities. Our 

7 government needs to work as an ally, not an 

8 adversary when it comes to our nation's energy 

9 policies. 

10 I stand ready to work with this 

11 Administration to come up with common sense 

12 solution to develop smarter regulations and 

13 strike the balance between a prosperous economy 

14 and a cleaner environment. The time to act, 

15 gentlemen, is now. Thank you so much.

16 MR. PAGE: Thank you very much, Senator 

17 Manchin. 

18 Let's see, Tom Burack, Commissioner Tom 

19 Burack and Craig Segall. 

20 MR. BURACK: Good afternoon, gentlemen. 

21 My name is Tom Burack. I serve as Commissioner 

22 of the New Hampshire Department of Environmental

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1 Services. 

2 Burack is spelled, B as in Boston, U-R-A3 C-K. 

4 And I want to thank you for the 

5 opportunity to present oral comments on behalf of 

6 the New Hampshire Department of Environmental 

7 Services, in response to EPA's proposed clean 

8 power plan to cut carbon emissions from existing 

9 power plants.

10 We appreciate the EPA's comprehensive 

11 efforts to reach out to states and to our other 

12 stakeholders, and we welcome this proposal.

13 New Hampshire has demonstrated and will 

14 continue to demonstrate leadership in this arena. 

15 In 2002 we enacted the New Hampshire Clean Power 

16 Act, first in the nation legislation that 

17 addressed Co2 emissions from power plants. 

18 In 2008 New Hampshire enacted legislation 

19 that authorized the state's participation in the 

20 Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, otherwise 

21 known as RGGI. And in 2009, New Hampshire, along 

22 with nine other RGGI states began implementing 

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1 the program. 

2 One of the original purposes of the RGGI 

3 program was to demonstrate the viability of a 

4 flexible market-based regional cap on emissions 

5 as the basis for a potential federal program. 

6 Ours states collectively represent the world's 

7 seventh largest economy, and our region's economy 

8 has benefitted significantly from the investments 

9 of RGGI allowance revenues, at the same time that

10 they have helped to lower regional emissions.

11 With respect to New Hampshire's plan for 

12 compliance with EPA's proposal, first and 

13 foremost our state requests that EPA recognize 

14 and accommodate our states and the RGGI regions' 

15 early leadership by providing the greatest 

16 available flexibility to the states in complying 

17 with the proposed Section 111D guidelines by 

18 continuing to participate in RGGI.

19 Not only have regional Co2 emissions 

20 already been reduced by more than 40 percent from 

21 2005 levels, but New Hampshire Co2 emissions have 

22 been reduced by over 48 percent. RGGI will 

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1 achieve an additional 14 percent reduction from 

2 its 2014 cap of 91 million tons by the year 2020.

3 Also new sources are covered under the 

4 RGGI cap which may represent significant 

5 additional reductions. DES believes that a 

6 reliable and effective method for developing 

7 mass-based emission targets is critical to 

8 helping states take advantage of the lowest cost 

9 carbon reduction options under EPA's proposal, 

10 thereby avoiding duplicative regulation.

11 DES further believes that a mass-based 

12 program like RGGI will be one of the most 

13 effective ways to transparently track and verify 

14 emissions reductions and compliance. 

15 We at DES are still reviewing and 

16 analyzing many details of EPA's proposal, 

17 including the proposed rate base, 2030 goal of 

18 486 tons per megawatt hour for New Hampshire, and 

19 the applicability of the four building blocks. 

20 In general we believe that the required 

21 EPA state rate goals should be equitably 

22 distributed amongst the states and should not 

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1 disadvantage states that have been early movers 

2 in reducing their Co2 emissions from power 

3 plants. 

4 DES plans to include additional feedback 

5 on proposed rate targets and other aspects of 

6 EPA's proposal in comments that we will submit 

7 before the close of the 120 day comment period.

8 Having said that there are some broad 

9 issues related to the formulation of the best 

10 system of emission reductions, BSER as 

11 established under Section 111D, that I would like 

12 to point out related to renewable energy and 

13 nuclear energy.

14 First, with respect to nuclear energy DES 

15 applauds EPA for its intent to recognize and 

16 incent non-emitting renewable generation as one 

17 of the building blocks in its approach to 

18 determining BSER. However, based on DES's 

19 analysis to date, we do not believe that EPA's 

20 primary proposal that involves averaging of state 

21 renewable portfolio standard goals across regions 

22 is workable. 

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1 DES believes that EPA's alternative 

2 approach may be more workable, and we look 

3 forward to engaging with EPA to ensure the 

4 effectiveness of this building block under an 

5 alternative formulation. 

6 With respect to nuclear energy, DES 

7 stresses the importance of setting standards that 

8 preserve nuclear and other options for fuel 

9 diversity and maintain grid reliability. 

10 However, we are unclear as to what actions our 

11 state might be expected to undertake in response 

12 to the proposed six percent allowance for nuclear 

13 plants considered to be at risk nationally. 

14 Furthermore, even the nuclear plants that remain 

15 operating, preserve fuel diversity and maintain 

16 grid reliability and are not emitting.

17 In summary DES applauds EPA's recognition 

18 of regional cost effective market based programs 

19 like RGGI, which have demonstrated that they can 

20 help states realize environmental and economic 

21 goals, while maintaining electricity grid 

22 reliability.

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1 And again DES supports the flexibility 

2 provided by the current proposal which signals 

3 that a multistate mass-based program such as RGGI 

4 can serve as the best system of emissions 

5 reductions.

6 Again, thank you very much for the 

7 opportunity to be with you here today.

8 MR. PAGE: Thank you, Commissioner. 

9 MR. SEGALL: Hello. Thank you all for 

10 being here for these 26 marathon hours of 

11 hearings. My name is Craig Segall. That's S-E12 G-A-L-L. And I am Senior Staff Council to the 

13 California Air Resources Board, or ARB. 

14 California, with the world's eighth 

15 largest economy, steadily falling levels of 

16 carbon pollution, and low electricity bills is 

17 proof positive that the need to address climate 

18 change does not conflict with the need for a 

19 strong and robust economy. Indeed, our climate 

20 programs have also delivered major reductions in 

21 criteria pollutants and air toxics have also 

22 declined. So we are seeing cumulatively both 

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1 public health benefits, economic growth, and 

2 climate progress through these programs.

3 Many of us believe that some of 

4 California's cost effective and economy friendly 

5 activities thus far may be used as models for 

6 other states in their compliance strategies.

7 ARB strongly supports EPA's efforts to 

8 help secure these benefits nationally through its 

9 clean power plan.

10 Section 111D of the Clean Air Act, the 

11 basis for the plan, establishes a strong 

12 partnership between national and state 

13 governments to cut pollution from existing power 

14 plants. By charging EPA with setting state by 

15 state emissions targets, reflecting the best 

16 system of emission reduction and the states 

17 themselves planning for these targets, the act is 

18 an invitation for states to innovate.

19 ARB in this regard strongly supports 

20 options in the proposal which provide for 

21 substantial state flexibility and plan design and 

22 enforceability. 

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1 In particular we very strongly urge EPA 

2 to finalize an enforceable state commitment 

3 option for state plans under which states 

4 themselves would take responsibility under EPA 

5 oversight for achieving reductions from covered 

6 facilities. 

7 Under this approach states will 

8 demonstrate through careful model and analysis 

9 that emissions from covered facilities will 

10 decline target levels by the EPA deadline as a 

11 result of the pollution control programs the 

12 state and implements and plans to implement.

13 The state's commitment to meet that 

14 target potentially along with more focused 

15 commitments to implement certain programs by 

16 particular dates are Federally enforceable, but 

17 the fine details of underlying programs who 

18 support them are not under this approach, 

19 striking an appropriate balance between the 

20 Federal goals and state regulatory flexibility, 

21 especially in the energy sector. Regular state 

22 reporting helps keep the emission trajectory on 

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1 course.

2 This approach gives states structured 

3 room to innovate while ensuring that the targets 

4 are met. States across the country have a long 

5 history of fruitful innovation in energy sector 

6 and pollution control programs, which this will 

7 help support.

8 California, for instance, has saved its 

9 citizens billions of dollars on their bills as it 

10 has pursued energy efficiency, is working to 

11 rapidly develop renewable and energy storage 

12 resources. 

13 Our cap and trade program similarly is 

14 delivering major pollution reductions and 

15 continue to look for ways expand this program to 

16 net even greater benefits. We want to make sure, 

17 however, that we and states across the country 

18 have the discretion to continue and improve these 

19 programs and develop new ones that will work in 

20 harmony with the federal plan without undue 

21 procedure and enforceability requirements.

22 The enforceable commitment approach gives 

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1 us that room by locking in targets for states to 

2 meet, by avoiding potentially duplicative federal 

3 and enforcement processes for particular energy 

4 program designs and fine plan details which might 

5 otherwise make it difficult to continue to to 

6 adjust state energy and climate programs as 

7 circumstances shift over the coming years.

8 While EPA can and should carefully 

9 scrutinize state programs before it approves the 

10 commitments they underwrite, and should explore 

11 contingency measures that can keep states on 

12 track, maintaining the state control over the 

13 energy programs themselves will keep the 

14 cooperative system nimble and ready to respond to 

15 new challenges. 

16 State commitments to a declining 

17 pollutant trajectory, coupled with room for 

18 course correction have been successful in 

19 controlling other criteria pollutants in the 

20 past. Texas, New York, and California at a 

21 minimum have developed commitment base state 

22 implementation plans for criteria pollutants, and 

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1 those plans have been upheld by the courts and 

2 the appellate courts, I should add. 

3 Thus, we have strong reasons for thinking 

4 that this approach or a modification of it will 

5 work here. And indeed, we think likely central 

6 to successfully implementing this program. 

7 Enforceable commitments with their built8 in flexibility and ability to respond if 

9 unexpected are particularly appropriate as we 

10 jointly embark on national carbon control for 

11 power plants for the first time. 

12 So, in sum, we look forward to exploring 

13 these issues further with you. ARB and EPA have 

14 had a long and fruitful partnership, not the 

15 least through exceptional outreach efforts 

16 through all of May and throughout development of 

17 this proposal. We are confident that the final 

18 Clean Power Plan balancing appropriately between 

19 Federal oversight and state innovation will help 

20 galvanize states across the country to cut carbon 

21 pollution and help their citizens prosper.

22 Thank you for your work to date, your 

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1 patience over these weeks, and we look forward 

2 very much to many more conversations in months 

3 and years to come. Thanks.

4 MR. PAGE: Thank you, gentlemen, for your 

5 testimony today. We appreciate it.

6 Our next speakers are Lucas Niewenhuis 

7 and Erica Mitrano. Lucas, I think you'll need to 

8 spell your name. Both of you need to spell your 

9 name.

10 MR. NIEWENHUIS: Good job pronouncing it, 

11 though.

12 MR. PAGE: Okay. Thanks. 

13 MR. NIEWENHUIS: Niewenhuis, N-I-E-W-E-N14 H-U-I-S.

15 As a young person in America today I 

16 realize that I am lucky to live in a country 

17 generally free from choking smog in our cities, 

18 toxic sludge in our rivers, and acid in our rain.

19 Those were for the most part, the 

20 environmental problems of the 20th Century. They 

21 have been kept that way, made a thing of the past 

22 because of wildly successful and efficient 

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1 policies from the EPA.

2 Unfortunately these problems continue in 

3 some ways. For example, emissions from coal 

4 fired power plants in Eastern Michigan, where I'm 

5 from, cost communities millions each year in 

6 harmed public health. And even more unfortunate, 

7 climate change has emerged as the greatest 

8 environmental challenge of the 21st Century, and 

9 so far not much has been done to address it. 

10 Just as smog, toxic waste, and acid rain plagued 

11 us in the 20th Century, 21st Century climate 

12 change promises new threats to our health and our 

13 economy. 

14 Here are just a few examples. The 

15 deadliest heat waves in world history have 

16 occurred in the last 15 years. Coinciding with 

17 the 10 warmest years on record. The 2003 

18 European and 2010 Russian heat waves have 

19 combined death tolls of over 100,000 people. It 

20 is only a matter of time before a similar heat 

21 wave hits the United States. In my lifetime we 

22 will suffer through this, likely as a result of 

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1 astronomical carbon pollution.

2 Some of the deepest droughts in U.S. 

3 history have also occurred in the last 15 years. 

4 California is currently in its third year of 

5 record breaking drought, straining groundwater

6 resources, resources that we once thought were 

7 abundant. 

8 Climate change will ensure that droughts 

9 like these become the new normal throughout the 

10 United States and the world. More heat, drought, 

11 wild fires, and floods could combine to wreck 

12 havoc on our food supply and food supplies, and 

13 in turn the world economy. 

14 These and other concerns convince me that 

15 strong global action is needed on climate change. 

16 But global agreement action has been hard to come 

17 by to say the least. The reality is that every

18 nation in the world by necessity looks up to the 

19 United States as a leader, and if the United 

20 States is not leading, then they will not follow.

21 So we have to ask ourselves these 

22 questions; if action on climate change doesn't 

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1 start here in the United States, then where will 

2 it start? Will we allow foreign nations to take 

3 environmental leadership in the 21st Century? I 

4 think it would be a shame. 

5 And if action on climate change doesn’t 

6 start now, in 2014, then when will it start? 

7 Will we wait for more of the deadliest heat waves 

8 in world history? Will we wait until a near 

9 permanent drought grips half the nation? Will we 

10 wait for more record setting super storms and 

11 wild fires to drown and scorch our land?

12 I don't know about you, but I think 

13 that's too late. We cannot continue to burn 

14 fossil fuels unabated. We can continue to burn 

15 them but abatement, emissions control needs to 

16 start now, and here in the United States.

17 With the Clean Power Plan United States 

18 will take a step in the right direction. As a

19 citizen I approve the message it sends to the 

20 rest of the world. The United States is finally 

21 ready to take action on climate change. With 

22 continued action in the future we will be able to 

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1 carry our environmental leadership from the 20th 

2 Century into the 21st. I hope that the EPA 

3 strengthens this plan to make our power as clean 

4 and healthy as possible, and continues its work 

5 with more climate action in the near future. 

6 Thank you.

7 MR. PAGE: Thank you, sir.

8 MS. MITRANO: Hello. My name is Erica 

9 Mitrano -- excuse me. Can you hear me? Okay.

10 MR. PAGE: Pull it a little bit closer.

11 MS. MITRANO: All right. My name is 

12 Erica Mitrano. I'm a nursing student. I live in 

13 Arlington, Virginia, and --

14 MR. PAGE: Erica, how do you spell your 

15 last name? I'm sorry.

16 MS. MITRANO: M-I-T-R-A-N-O.

17 MR. PAGE: Okay.

18 MS. MITRANO: And it's Erica with a C.

19 MR. PAGE: Okay. Very good. Thank you.

20 MS. MITRANO: Okay. Thanks.

21 I had a statement that actually fell out 

22 of my pocket on the way here, so I'm winging it a 

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1 little bit. But I've got a few notes.

2 I just wanted to say that climate change 

3 is probably the biggest challenge that human 

4 civilization has ever faced, and it endangers our 

5 coastal cities, literally billions of lives, 

6 probably, once you look at it. And it imperils 

7 our entire way of life. 

8 I've heard, while sitting here, people 

9 saying that taking action is too expensive or 

10 that the plan is too stringent. But that kind of 

11 thinking is the most dangerous kind of short term 

12 thinking. 

13 People who say that the cost of action is 

14 too high have failed to confront the unthinkable 

15 human and economic costs we will incur or 

16 struggle to endure if we don't take action. 

17 In 2008, before he took office, Barack 

18 Obama promised a new beginning in combating 

19 climate change. It has taken more than six 

20 years, but it seems like his administration is 

21 finally taking action to keep that promise to the 

22 American people. 

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1 This plan is nowhere near enough but it's 

2 a great start. And I think that prudence demands 

3 that it be adopted as soon as possible. Thank 

4 you.

5 MR. PAGE: Thank you very much. I 

6 appreciate you both coming today.

7 All right. Our next speakers are Brian 

8 Banks and Brenna Muller.

9 Mr. Banks, when you're ready.

10 MR. BANKS: Thank you. Good afternoon. 

11 My name is Brian Banks, and my day job is working 

12 for the American Lung Association as a Director 

13 of Advocacy for the Healthy Air Campaign. I 

14 sincerely thank you for the opportunity to speak 

15 to you today in support of the Clean Carbon Plan.

16 As you've heard, yesterday and today, the 

17 American Lung Association strongly supports EPA's 

18 commonsense commitment to reducing carbon 

19 pollution in order to protect public health of 

20 all people in our country.

21 During EPA testimony we have listened to 

22 several witnesses that have intelligent and well 

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1 researched arguments on the importance of this 

2 rule. And the many reason we believe EPA has 

3 made the right decision in proposing the Clean 

4 Carbon Plan.

5 The science is clear and supports the 

6 need for the Clean Carbon Plan. After all, the 

7 plan is for all people. And for that matter, the 

8 wellbeing of every person in this room, we all 

9 breath, and in order to live we require air. And 

10 we have the right to good quality clean air. 

11 Clean air supports good health, which we 

12 cannot argue against. The fact is, a person 

13 living a healthy life will have a better 

14 opportunity to remain productive in our society. 

15 Our air quality has improved due to the Clean Air 

16 Act, however despite progress there is still a 

17 need for improvement. Those who want to block 

18 weaken, or delay this rule, are working against 

19 the health of America's children, senior 

20 citizens, our neighbors, and our friends.

21 Blocking clean air protections hurt those 

22 suffering from breathing disorders such as 

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1 asthma, bronchitis, COPD, just to name a few.

2 Today I would like to take a step away 

3 from the statistics we have heard and speak to 

4 you not only as an employee of the American Lung 

5 Association, but as the father of a 14 year old 

6 boy. We both enjoy spending time outdoors, 

7 fishing, crabbing, sailing, exercising, playing 

8 basketball, or just taking a leisurely stroll 

9 around the neighborhood. 

10 The thought of knowing that the lungs of 

11 my son may have been harmed because we like 

12 spending time outdoors all over our state of 

13 Maryland is not only scary, it is not fair to him 

14 or I. All people are breathing in the pollution 

15 from power plants. And the pollution is 

16 affecting the health of our communities across 

17 the United States. Cleaning up carbon pollution 

18 can help with the ozone smog and practical

19 pollution we are all breathing deep into our 

20 lungs.

21 I enjoy the outdoors for all it has to 

22 offer. But now it's offering me the chance to 

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1 poison myself by breathing in nitrogen oxides, 

2 sulfur dioxide, exposing my lungs to dangerous 

3 ozone levels, and eating fish contaminated with 

4 mercury.

5 I am in overall good health. Despite my 

6 health I am at risk because I live in a county 

7 that received a poor air grade. My son is at 

8 risk because of the same reason, and the children 

9 around the country who will one day lead us, are 

10 at risk. 

11 I speak for everyone when I say we demand 

12 the right to breath good quality air. I ask, did 

13 you know that more than half of our country live 

14 in a county with poor air quality? I not only 

15 know this as fact, I live in a county that the 

16 American Lung Association State of the Air gives 

17 a grade of F for high ozone days, and a C for 

18 high particle pollution.

19 Do I move away from my home? The same 

20 goes, you can run but you cannot hide. And based 

21 on the scientific facts this holds true without 

22 any doubt. It would be difficult to remove 

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1 myself and family from a poor air quality area. 

2 Quite frankly it scares me that our country is 

3 being dominated by pollutants that cause 

4 difficult breathing, asthma attacks, and 

5 premature death. And that climate change is 

6 making it harder to clean up pollution.

7 However, there is hope in the Clean 

8 Carbon Plan. The plan is well overdue, and 

9 though it can be improved, it has the formula to 

10 lead us all in the place where we will not be --

11 I'm sorry, excuse me. Where there would not be a 

12 second thought about breathing.

13 Thank you for the opportunity to present 

14 my testimony. I am looking forward to the final 

15 rule.

16 MR. PAGE: Thank you, Mr. Banks. 

17 MS. MULLER: Hi. Thank you. Right now 

18 I'll be reading the testimony of my colleague, 

19 Terry McGuire who is not able to be here today.

20 MR. PAGE: Okay. 

21 MS. MULLER: And his --

22 MR. PAGE: And your last name is spelled?

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1 MS. MULLER: My last name is spelled, 

2 Muller, M-U-L-L-E-R.

3 MR. PAGE: Very good.

4 MS. MULLER: His name is Terry McGuire.

5 Good morning EPA leaders and staff. My 

6 name is Terry McGuire and I am a Federal Policy 

7 Representative with the Sierra Club here in 

8 Washington, D.C. I'm here today to strongly 

9 support EPA's rule to curb dangerous industrial 

10 carbon pollution from existing power plants.

11 I would like to dedicate my testimony to 

12 my Godson, Jude Heshenwiles (phonetic) who is a 

13 wiggly, crawling, messy, and beautiful 15 month 

14 old. Jude was born last May on the same medical 

15 campus where President Obama announced these 

16 carbon pollution standards. Surrounded by 

17 children afflicted with asthma our president 

18 appropriately framed action on climate as a 

19 public health issue. I couldn't agree more with 

20 him.

21 For decades corporate polluters have been 

22 allowed to dump unlimited amounts of carbon 

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1 dioxide pollution into our air. The result has 

2 been an ever warming climate that has resulted in 

3 dangerous super storms, fires, droughts, and more 

4 asthma attacks because of hotter weather and more 

5 bad ozone days.

6 I don't know if Jude will develop asthma, 

7 but I do know his lungs are still forming. As 

8 his bronchial cavities are developing tubes and 

9 blood vessels and lung walls and cells coming 

10 together and growing I know that he must contend 

11 with the air that's dirtier than it should be. 

12 The American Lung Association in their 

13 yearly report card gave the District of Columbia 

14 an F for our overall ozone levels. 

15 Elevated ozone levels, or smog, 

16 contribute to asthma attacks and can act as a 

17 sunburn on his tiny lungs. Climate scientists 

18 tell us that if left unchecked unlimited carbon 

19 pollution emissions will lead to more very hot 

20 days which consequently would lead to more bad 

21 ozone days and more asthma attacks for kids like 

22 Jude.

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1 Across the District there are more than 

2 15,000 children and more than 50,000 adults with 

3 asthma. When big corporate polluters and money 

4 lobbyists speak darkly about massive job losses 

5 and economic collapse, claims that to be clear 

6 are not rooted in fact and we know to be 

7 overblown, I wonder if they think about the 

8 thousands of people for whom the very act of 

9 breathing is a challenge. 

10 Have they ever seen a child in the 

11 emergency room, struggling, gasping for air or 

12 for life? Have they ever been bedside by a son 

13 or a daughter that has gone into a coma after a 

14 massive asthma attack?

15 I witnessed my first asthma attack 

16 approximately 25 years ago. I was shaken out of 

17 sleep in the middle of the night by my little 

18 brother who had come by my bedside to tell me 

19 that he couldn't breathe, asking that I get mom 

20 and dad. 

21 I remember mom, wide-eyed with panic, 

22 frantically holding him over the edge of the tub 

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1 and cutting on a hot shower, hoping that the 

2 steam might help open his lungs while dad threw 

3 on clothes and prepared to rush them off to the 

4 emergency room. Thankfully my brother was okay 

5 and even more thankfully he outgrew his childhood 

6 asthma. But it was terrifying and sadly far too 

7 many children don't outgrow their asthma and 

8 experience scenarios like this every single day.

9 So I applaud your efforts and encourage 

10 you to finalize a strong, just rule that makes 

11 significant reductions in our industrial carbon 

12 pollution.

13 My hope is that as Jude grows up he'll 

14 learn about climate change in much the same way I 

15 learned about acid rain. I hope that he learns 

16 and reads about it as a very real threat, that we 

17 collectively as a society recognized and took 

18 action to reign in and consequently avoided the 

19 worst effects.

20 I imagine he and many other in his 

21 generation will shake their heads and wonder what 

22 all the fuss was about. How could anyone have 

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1 stood in the way they'll ask. Let's look 

2 forward. Let's act. Let's make sure that in the 

3 future as the world deals with the global climate 

4 change we've already set in motion that we can 

5 look our grandchildren in the eyes and tell them

6 that we stood up to act on climate and that had 

7 we -- and that it could not have been a lot 

8 worse. 

9 Please know that as you move forward, if 

10 you finalize and implement a strong and just and 

11 equitable rule that protects communities and 

12 workers, that the Sierra Club will have your 

13 back. We stand ready to put our muscle against

14 those that would sell our air and water for broad 

15 profits and executive salaries. 

16 Thank you for the chance to speak today 

17 and for your ongoing work to hold polluters 

18 accountable.

19 MR. PAGE: Thank you all for your 

20 testimony today. We appreciate it. 

21 Our next speakers are Emily Lande and Jim 

22 Dougherty. Emily, if you'll spell your last 

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1 name --

2 MS. LANDE: Sure.

3 MR. PAGE: -- and begin when you're 

4 ready.

5 MS. LANDE: It was excellent 

6 pronunciation. I'm impressed. It's Lande, L-A7 N-D-E. 

8 Thank you for the opportunity to testify 

9 today. My name is Emily Lande and I work for the 

10 National Wildlife Federation as an advocate for 

11 public lands conservation. I am not a scientist 

12 and I am not an expert on air quality 

13 regulations, but lucky for you my own personal 

14 environmental hero, my dad, Greg Lande, is. 

15 I am proud to read his testimony, e16 mailed all the way from Portland, Oregon at this 

17 hearing today. I won't do the voice. 

18 I worked for the Oregon Department of 

19 Environmental Quality for just over 34 years. 

20 Part of that time I spent doing ambient air 

21 quality monitoring, and most of that time I was 

22 an air quality planner, focused primarily on 

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1 hazardous air pollutants. 

2 In both capacities I saw firsthand how 

3 EPA standards led directly to making many 

4 people's health and lives better. Here are a few 

5 of my thoughts.

6 In the late 1970s Oregon was focused on 

7 attaining the National Ambient Air Quality 

8 Standards for ozone and particulate matter. 

9 Although there had been state and local 

10 regulations it was the Federal standards that 

11 really made things happen.

12 Primary and applied research led to an 

13 understanding of the distribution of these 

14 pollutants, their sources, and the complex 

15 atmospheric interactions that led to their 

16 formation. Oregon and the local air agencies 

17 then crafted strategies with significant 

18 assistance from local citizens to reduce the 

19 primary sources as well as the precursor 

20 pollutants. 

21 Without the science we could not have 

22 convinced people that they needed to reduce their 

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1 driving and their home woodstove use. That is 

2 that we held the keys to our own wellbeing, an 

3 approach Oregonians could embrace.

4 While these early strategies weren't 

5 perfect they improved air quality enormously. 

6 Over the years ambient air standards and 

7 strategies have been revisited and updated. The 

8 key was that we started and that the air keeps 

9 getting better. 

10 Meanwhile EPA was developing, proposing, 

11 and adopting new source performance standards 

12 that sought to reduce emissions from key 

13 pollutant sources. 

14 Here EPA generally provided the expertise 

15 and leadership for creating regulations that 

16 state and local agencies could then implement and 

17 enforce. In some cases, though, states had 

18 familiarity and knowledge with certain source 

19 types. Of course you know where I'm headed.

20 Oregon led the way with the new source 

21 performance standards for residential wood 

22 heating. We knew a lot about wood stoves and had 

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1 an urgent need to do something about them. Last 

2 I heard Oregon is actively involved in the 

3 updates to these standards.

4 I always felt that EPA and the Oregon air 

5 agencies had a good partnership, that we shared a 

6 common goal, and used common sense in achieving 

7 these goals with practical and effective 

8 regulations. I see no reason why this won't 

9 continue.

10 The adoption of the 1990 clean air 

11 amendments was a big deal for us in Oregon and me 

12 in particular. While I was only indirectly 

13 involved with developing, adopting, and 

14 implementing the Federal Title 5 Operating Permit 

15 Regulations, just about everyone in the air 

16 quality division played a part. 

17 On the other hand I was very involved 

18 with the National Emission Standards for 

19 hazardous air pollutants. These regulations

20 broke new and complicated ground. To start with, 

21 it was hard to explain to people what made 

22 hazardous air pollutants different from other air 

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1 pollutants. Weren't all pollutants potentially a 

2 public health problem? It was also hard to 

3 explain seemingly arbitrary standards. What does 

4 controlling emissions to a level equal to the 

5 average of the top 12 percent mean? Which 

6 businesses would that affect and how were these 

7 regulations going to protect people?

8 It was a struggle from the beginning and 

9 I know that the struggle continues. But once 

10 again the air agencies at all levels, working 

11 with the regulated communities, and the pollution 

12 affected communities, accomplish good things. 

13 To my mind Federal standards are 

14 important for many reasons. They drive the 

15 science so the regulations do what is intended. 

16 They create an equitable regulatory environment 

17 so that one part of the country is not 

18 disadvantaged compared to another. And they 

19 protect people in one location from pollution 

20 coming from elsewhere.

21 In my experience few regulations are 

22 perfect right out the gate and implementing 

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1 agencies, often the state and local levels, will 

2 spot problems quickly so the regulations can be 

3 improved. The important thing is we must start 

4 doing something.

5 Thank you again for giving me an 

6 opportunity to present these comments on behalf 

7 of my dad, and in extension, myself. It just 

8 goes to show that air really knows no boundaries, 

9 be they geographic or generational. 

10 Like my dad said, we need to start 

11 somewhere, and when it comes to cutting carbon 

12 pollution from power plants the Clean Power Plan 

13 is the start that we need.

14 MR. PAGE: Thank you.

15 MS. LANDE: Thank you. 

16 MR. PAGE: Mr. Dougherty.

17 MR. DOUGHERTY: Hi. Jim Dougherty, D-O18 U-G-H-E-R-T-Y. 

19 I'm a resident of Washington where I live

20 four blocks away from a coal fired power plant, 

21 and if time permitted I would talk about life 

22 living near a coal fired power plant, but I have 

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1 a couple of other points to make.

2 I'm now in my 11th year of service on the 

3 Sierra Club Board of Directors, but the testimony 

4 I'm about to give is my own.

5 I have two points to make. You proposed

6 plan doesn't do enough to reduce energy use. In 

7 fact that's true of most of the energy advocacy 

8 programs I see out there. There's talk about 

9 cleaning up dirty energy, we talk about building 

10 windmills and solar power, and we generally give 

11 lip service to demand reduction. Your plan calls 

12 for 10.7 percent reduction by 2030. We could 

13 easily get twice that much in half the time.

14 There is lots of low hanging fruit all 

15 around us, and I'll give you one example. When I 

16 biked over here half an hour ago from my office I 

17 counted 14 street lights that were fully 

18 illuminated in the middle of the day. Two of 

19 them are right across the street. Thirteen of 

20 those are the infamous Washington Glob Lights, 

21 which even in the middle of the night are 

22 incredible wasteful. They extend all their light 

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1 up. 

2 But them burning during the day is really 

3 unconscionable and you'll see these everywhere 

4 once you pay attention. It's just unbelievable. 

5 There's so much more we could do.

6 And just one more point about outdoor 

7 lighting. For every watt we can kill on outdoor 

8 lighting, it's much more valuable than energy 

9 conservation we can achieve indoors or elsewhere 

10 because we get the ancillary benefits of 

11 preserving the starry sky, adverse affects on 

12 wild life and wild life habitat, and human health 

13 effects of light trespass into our homes. But 

14 these kind things could be dealt with in 18 

15 months, so I ask you to take that on. 

16 The second point I'd like to make is that 

17 I've been practicing environmental law in 

18 Washington for almost 40 years now and not 

19 surprisingly I spent some time working for EPA. 

20 I was there in the 70s, and in the 80s, and in 

21 the 90s. I finally became a branch chief in 

22 Office of Enforcement. Not that that makes me a 

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1 big frog in the pond, but having been on the 

2 inside for several years and then having worked 

3 on the outside, mostly suing the agency, I've 

4 developed my own perspective on how they approach 

5 new regulatory programs, the Air Act, the Water 

6 Act, Hazardous Waste, and the rest.

7 And generally speaking the history has 

8 been when EPA takes on a new program like climate 

9 change here, they take baby steps. They adopt 

10 half myth. And so then they spend the next 

11 decades catching up, filling loopholes, adding 

12 enforcement mechanisms. 

13 And in part that's because of 

14 deficiencies in the organic legislation. We've 

15 had to amend the Air Act a couple of times and 

16 same with CERCLA. But it's been largely because 

17 EPA doesn't take these things on aggressively.

18 And a great example of that would be the 

19 Ambient Air Quality Standards. We've been 

20 ratcheting those down for 40 years and it's 

21 basically a simple question. How much air 

22 pollution affects human health? But we continue 

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1 to take baby steps towards that final goal.

2 Well, when we're dealing with climate we 

3 can't be that risk averse. We have to be bold 

4 because the nature of the challenge we face is 

5 far greater than any challenge EPA has ever faced 

6 before. 

7 This is not about American pollution, 

8 it's about global pollution. This is not about 

9 human health, which is what most of our 

10 environmental laws are anchored in. It's about 

11 every aspect of the environment. It's about the 

12 matrix of life that everything on the planet 

13 depends on. 

14 So we're talking about the arctic ice 

15 sheets, we're talking about the coral reefs, 

16 we're talking about amphibian -- amphibians 

17 worldwide are down 35 percent. That's the kind 

18 of thing that's at stake in this rule.

19 And so from that perspective my comment 

20 on your proposed rule is that it's only a half a 

21 loaf. There's a claim that it would reduce 

22 emissions by 30 percent by 2030. But as you 

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1 know, 12 or 14 percent of those emissions have 

2 already been obtained because of the choice of 

3 baseline. So we're really talking about 17 or 18 

4 percent reduction over the next 15 years or so. 

5 One percent a year doesn't cut it. It doesn't 

6 deal with the problem.

7 What we need to do is reduce emissions by 

8 three percent or four percent a year for the next 

9 10 or 15 years. And so I invite you to make it 

10 stronger. 

11 Failing that, I invite you not to 

12 compromise. Don't pull your punches. Don’t sell 

13 out. You're going to be under a lot of pressure. 

14 I heard the guy testify from Peabody Coal 

15 yesterday. There's going to be a lot of that 

16 going on, there will be litigation, and I urge 

17 you to stand strong. The stakes of this 

18 challenge are higher than anything you've ever 

19 faced before. Thanks.

20 MR. PAGE: Thank you. Thank you both for 

21 being here today; appreciate it.

22 All right. Our next speakers are Sanaa 

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1 Sledge and Niasia Ellis. I'm going to ask each 

2 of you to spell your last name for the court 

3 reporter before you start, and also help me with 

4 the pronunciation, which I'm sure I didn't do 

5 very well at.

6 MS. ELLIS: Hi. I'm Niasia Ellis, E-L-L7 I-S. 

8 MR. PAGE: Okay.

9 MS. ELLIS: I am Niasia Ellis. I am a 

10 rising senior at Open High School in Richmond, 

11 Virginia. Earlier this year I attended EPA's 

12 listening session on carbon pollution. Standards 

13 -- I'm sorry. Excuse me. Carbon pollution 

14 standards for existing power plants. I'm back 

15 today to thank you for your proposal for the 

16 Clean Power Plan and ask that you finalize your 

17 proposal so that we can -- sorry. And to ask 

18 that you finale your proposal so that it can 

19 start protecting the health of kids with asthma.

20 I hold the title of Ms. Teen Essence. My 

21 pageant platform is asthma awareness. You can L22 I-V-E with asthma. Live is an acronym for lead, 

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1 inspire, be victorious, and empower. 

2 I was diagnosed with asthma at age four, 

3 and it took me many years to be able to get it 

4 under control. I used to end up in the hospital 

5 every single year and even playing outside at 

6 recess would make me sick. 

7 Now that I've learned to manage my asthma 

8 I want to teach others the same. I'm very active 

9 in my community because too many people in 

10 Richmond suffer from asthma and have trouble 

11 controlling it. In fact the National Asthma and 

12 Allergy Foundation named Richmond the Asthma 

13 Capitol of the Country this year, as well as 2010 

14 and 2011. 

15 That means that it's the toughest place 

16 in America for someone like me to live. There's 

17 a lot we can do to help kids control their 

18 condition. I teach groups of kids how to learn 

19 to control their asthma and avoid -- to control 

20 their triggers and avoid them.

21 I spoke at an event the Asthma Lung 

22 Association held in Richmond where we raised 

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1 funds and awareness of lung disease by climbing 

2 the stairs of the downtown office buildings. 

3 I've worked with the Virginia Asthma Coalition to 

4 encourage kids and parents to make a plan so that 

5 their child's school and nurse knows what 

6 medicine to give and when to give it. 

7 I've even taught groups without asthma to 

8 understand what it's like to have asthma attacks 

9 by having them breath through coffee stirrers. 

10 This is a cause that I am truly 

11 passionate about and so devoted. I even won two 

12 awards this year for my volunteer work with 

13 asthma. This problem is that -- this problem is, 

14 there are all a lot of personal actions that we 

15 can take to manage our condition, but there are 

16 some things that are outside of our control.

17 Richmond's poor air quality is one thing 

18 that I cannot change on my own. Virginia and the 

19 nation has done a good job in reducing the ozone 

20 pollution over the past several years. 

21 Unfortunately scientists predict that the climate 

22 change will undo a lot of the progress we've 

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1 made. More carbon pollution leads to higher 

2 temperatures, and that means more dangerous smog 

3 that keeps kids with asthma indoors.

4 I am lucky to have the opportunity to 

5 travel here and speak before you to represent the 

6 City of Richmond's 3,576 kids with asthma. I'm 

7 asking you to please, put our health first, and 

8 the health of other people with asthma across 

9 Virginia. Please finalize the Clean Power Plan 

10 into law so that we can get the work done, clean 

11 up our carbon in the air, and make the air safer 

12 for everyone to breathe. Thank you.

13 MR. PAGE: Thank you. Sanaa.

14 MS. SLEDGE: Hi, I'm Sanaa Sledge, S-L-E15 D-G-E. 

16 I'm Sanaa Sledge, I'm 10 years old and 

17 I'm an honor student at Baker Elementary School 

18 in Richmond, Virginia. I'm also Niasia's younger 

19 sister. Like Niasia I'm a pageant winner. I 

20 hold the title of Ms. Candyland Ultimate Grand 

21 Supreme, and I also love to volunteer.

22 I'm a Girl Scout. I've spoken at local 

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1 boys and girls club events, and I helped at an 

2 event for people in Richmond with special needs. 

3 I also volunteer at the American Lung 

4 Association's Fight for Air Climb in Richmond. I 

5 helped encourage climbers to reach the top to 

6 help people with lung disease.

7 I want to help kids everywhere lead happy 

8 health lives. I don't have asthma but I know how 

9 scary asthma attacks can be. It's really tough 

10 to watch your big sister have trouble breathing. 

11 I remember visiting Niasia in the hospital. It 

12 was tough for my whole family when Niasia was 

13 sick.

14 I'm so happy now that she doesn't have to 

15 go to the hospital anymore for her asthma. I 

16 want all kids with asthma to have the same chance 

17 to be healthy and active. That's why I want to 

18 add my voice to Clean Power Plan. We need to 

19 clean up the air pollution that makes kids with

20 asthma sick. Thank you.

21 MR. PAGE: Thank you all very much for 

22 coming here. I appreciate your testimony.

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1 All right. Is Molly Simon ready to 

2 talk? 

3 MS. SIMON: Hello. My name is Molly 

4 Simon. I work for the National Wildlife 

5 Federation, and I'm here today to deliver 

6 testimony on behalf of Ida Sargent, who is a 2014 

7 Winter Olympian. 

8 MR. PAGE: Molly, you spell your name 

9 Simon? 

10 MS. SIMON: Uh-huh.

11 MR. PAGE: Yep.

12 MS. SIMON: Yep.

13 MR. PAGE: Great. Thank you.

14 MS. SIMON: All right. Thank you for 

15 the opportunity to submit formal testimony 

16 regarding the EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan. 

17 My name is Ida Sargent and I am writing today 

18 from Craftsbury, Vermont to express my strong 

19 support for EPA's historic action to combat 

20 climate change by setting limits on carbon 

21 pollution for existing power plants.

22 I grew up in Northern Vermont in a rural 

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1 area and learned to ski as soon as I could walk. 

2 From the first snow in the late fall until the 

3 snow melt in late March, I would strap on my skis 

4 and ski from my front door, gliding across the 

5 snow, exploring the local fields and woods. 

6 I soon became passionate about skiing and 

7 used the sport to develop a love for the local 

8 landscape, as well as an appreciation of a 

9 healthy lifestyle.

10 I have followed this passion to the 

11 highest level, representing the United States of 

12 America last February at the 2014 Winter Olympics 

13 in Sochi, Russia.

14 Competing in the Olympics for Team USA 

15 was a dream come true, but also part of a long 

16 journey and countless hours of hard work. Along 

17 the way I have seen many changes to our winters, 

18 and thus the sport that I love. 

19 Every winter the first snowfall happens a 

20 little later, and the January fall lasts a little 

21 longer. 

22 At home in Vermont ski areas are being 

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1 forced to expand their snowmaking capacity in 

2 order to keep up with the warming climate. Not 

3 only does this create a financial burden for one 

4 of the state's largest industries, but it also 

5 pulls from the joy of being able to actually 

6 cross-country ski across the pristine landscapes 

7 which make up the Green Mountains. 

8 This is not just an isolated problem for 

9 Vermont or our country. Last year on the 

10 International Racing Circuit I competed for the 

11 U.S. Ski Team in World Cup and Olympic races in 

12 11 countries, and raced on manmade snow every 

13 single one of them.

14 Lack of snow caused race courses to be 

15 shortened to small loops of artificial snow, 

16 which only perpetuates the problem. 

17 It's summertime now, but I'm still ski 

18 training with my eye set on the 2018 Olympics, 

19 and hopefully snowy winters ahead. I just 

20 finished an afternoon run around the roads of my 

21 town in Craftsbury, Vermont. As I ascend the 

22 higher hills I had a wonderful view of a wind 

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1 farm on a neighboring ridge. I am proud to be 

2 from a community which values clean power and 

3 looks forward to seeing more of these renewable 

4 resources across our nation.

5 The U.S. EPA's Clean Power Plan is a 

6 major step in this direction. Through targeting 

7 carbon pollution this plan will protect our 

8 winters by promoting a future in which we invest 

9 in more sources of clean energy and less in fuels 

10 that pollute our climate.

11 Placing a direct target on carbon 

12 pollution can allow us to reach our potential of 

13 utilizing renewable resources like wind and 

14 solar, and force us all to reduce our energy 

15 demand through energy efficiency.

16 I have witnessed changing winters and the 

17 effects of extreme weather fueled by climate 

18 change, both in local communities in Vermont and 

19 across the globe, and I applaud the EPA for 

20 taking this much needed step to address the 

21 course that we are on.

22 Thank you for the opportunity to share my 

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1 experiences and I look forward to seeing the 

2 change which the Clean Power Plan will spark. I 

3 hope to continue to ski across snowy landscapes 

4 in Vermont for many winters to come, and to share 

5 my passion for the sport with future generations. 

6 Thank you.

7 MR. PAGE: Thank you, Ms. Simon. We 

8 appreciate you being here.

9 Are there any other speakers that would 

10 like to speak now? The folks that have been 

11 signed up don't come until after the break at 

12 6:00. So if there's anybody here that wants to 

13 go now, we could accommodate that and --

14 Hearing none we'll adjourn until 6:00 

15 this evening for the evening testimonies then. 

16 Thank you all very much. 

17 (Dinner recess from 4:34 p.m. until 6:01 

18 p.m.)

19 MR. PAGE: Good evening. Thank you all 

20 for coming here this evening and my name is Steve 

21 Page and I’m the Director of the Office of Air 

22 Quality Planning and Standards here at EPA, and 

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1 that's in the Office of Air and Radiation that my 

2 fellow panelists are a part of. 

3 We are the offices who work together to 

4 develop the proposed power plant rules, and it's 

5 I think one of the most important as well as 

6 rewarding parts of our job to not only then put a 

7 proposal out, but then to get public comment on 

8 it. That's to us, I think, most of us feel that 

9 that's the most important part of our job. We 

10 put together a proposal lots of different ways, 

11 but then to get the public input and then reshape 

12 the proposal in a way that makes good policy 

13 sense is what most of us enjoy.

14 I've got a statement that I have to read 

15 that we read in front of all our hearings, so 

16 we're going to be appropriate that way. Before I 

17 do that I'd like the panelists to introduce 

18 themselves so you can hear from them, and then 

19 I'll get on with the rituals here.

20 MS. STEVENS: My name is Gabrielle 

21 Stevens. I'm an environmental scientist with the 

22 Office of Atmospheric Programs. 

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1 MR. PAGE: Great. Sorry, Beth.

2 MS. CONLIN: It's no problem. Hi. I'm 

3 Beth Conlin. I'm an environmental protection 

4 specialist with the Office of Atmospheric 

5 Programs.

6 MR. PAGE: All righty. These guys are 

7 experienced hearing officers. They've been doing 

8 a couple days worth of hearings in various 

9 capacities. So, we're here today to listen to 

10 your comments on the two proposed rules to reduce 

11 carbon pollution from power plants. EPA 

12 announced both of those proposed rules on June 

13 2nd, 2014. 

14 Power plants are the largest source of 

15 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

16 roughly one third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

17 emissions. The first rule is EPA's proposed 

18 Clean Power Plan for existing power plants. 

19 This proposal consists of two main parts, 

20 state specific goals to lower carbon pollution 

21 from power plants, and guidelines to help states 

22 develop their plans for meeting the goals. And 

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1 this proposal gives states flexibility in 

2 determining how they'll meet their goals. States 

3 will choose what goes into their plans, that show 

4 how they will achieve the needed reductions and 

5 meet their goals by 2030.

6 The second rule that we're taking comment 

7 on is EPA's proposed rule to address carbon 

8 dioxide emission from modified and reconstructed 

9 power plants. This rule would set emission 

10 limits for two groups of power plants, those that 

11 make physical or operational changes that 

12 increase the plant's maximum achievable hourly 

13 rate of emissions, and those that replace 

14 components to such an extent that the new 

15 components exceed 50 percent of the capital cost 

16 of an entirely new comparable facility.

17 If you want more details on either of 

18 those proposed rules there are fact sheets 

19 available near the registration desk. We also 

20 have a lot of information on our websites. 

21 Today's hearing is one of four public 

22 hearings the EPA is holding across the country. 

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1 We've had tremendous interest in each of the 

2 hearings, and today we've had many people signed 

3 up to speak and it's been our pleasure to hear 

4 from everybody. We have a full evening planned 

5 ahead for this evening and this will be our last 

6 session for the public hearings.

7 Before we get started, though, I want to 

8 go through a few ground rules that will help make 

9 today's hearing run smoothly. 

10 First you should check in at the 

11 registration desk. Even if you're not planning 

12 to speak and if you signed up to speak online or 

13 by phone but haven't told us that you're here, 

14 please step out to the registration desk and let 

15 the EPA staff know that you have arrived.

16 Second, if you are a speaker you were 

17 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

18 or Room B. This is Room A. Are you in the right 

19 room is probably a good question to ask. If not, 

20 this is a good time to switch.

21 All right. So here's how we're going to 

22 run the hearing. We're going to call up the 

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1 speakers in pairs to the table in front of us, 

2 and so when you hear your name called come on up. 

3 When I call on you to speak please state your 

4 name and spell it for the court reporter. Your 

5 comments will be transcribed and included in the 

6 record of comments on the proposed rule.

7 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

8 give comments, and we have a light to help you 

9 know how much time you have left to speak. The 

10 light -- there you go. Thank you for the 

11 demonstration.

12 When the light turns from green to yellow 

13 that means you have one minute remaining. When 

14 it turns red, that's a signal to wrap up your 

15 testimony. The light will flash red and beep 

16 when you have spoken for five minutes and it's 

17 time to stop. 

18 When you're finished speaking please 

19 remain at the table until the person next to you 

20 has completed his or her testimony. We're here 

21 to listen to you today, however there may be 

22 times in the course of events tonight that one of 

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1 the panelists will ask you for a clarification. 

2 And you shouldn't be put off by that. We're just 

3 trying to get as much information for the purpose 

4 of the record as we can. Sometimes when people 

5 reference studies that they've used as resources, 

6 sometimes they'll ask the, do you have that 

7 study? We'd like to have that study. That kind 

8 of thing.

9 Don't worry, we're not going to give you 

10 the third degree. It really is more 

11 clarification of your testimony. 

12 If you've brought a written copy of your 

13 testimony please give it to the staff at the 

14 registration desk before you leave today. 

15 Because of the large number of people who 

16 have signed up to speak today, and to be fair to 

17 everyone we're going to have to strictly enforce 

18 the five minute limit. If you have additional 

19 comments you would like to make you can submit 

20 them in writing. 

21 And this is an important point here. We 

22 can assure you that the EPA gives just as much 

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1 consideration to the comments we receive in 

2 writing as we do comments that we receive at 

3 public hearings like this one. 

4 So if you have more that you would like 

5 to say tonight and there's not time, please 

6 submit your comments and I promise you they will 

7 be reviewed. There's plenty of time to get 

8 written comments in. The comment deadline is 

9 October 16th, 2014, and we will put any written 

10 comments submitted today in the official docket 

11 for the proposed rule. Instructions for 

12 submitting written comments in other ways are 

13 available at the front desk. And again, just ask 

14 somebody at the front desk how you can do that.

15 This session will run until -- we're 

16 scheduled to run between 8:00 and 9:00 depending 

17 on the number of speakers that show. We'll be 

18 here to take people's testimony even if they come 

19 in a little bit later than that. 

20 I guess I want to ask each of you to 

21 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

22 today. So far we haven't had a problem with 

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1 that. We've had people show up with widely 

2 varying views on these rules, and sometimes about 

3 EPA, and we've let everybody speak their piece 

4 and then -- even applause sometimes slows things

5 down. So if we could kind of listen quietly so 

6 that everyone can be heard.

7 Thank you again for taking the time to 

8 share your comments on EPA's proposed rules. And 

9 with that, I think we should get started.

10 Our first speaker slated for tonight are 

11 Philo Collins and Jeff Saxe. 

12 Mr. Collins, if you'll spell your first 

13 name, or last name, excuse me. And when you're 

14 ready, please proceed.

15 MR. COLLINS: My last name is Collins, C16 O-L-L-I-N-S. 

17 MR. PAGE: Okay. Very good.

18 MR. COLLINS: I've been a D.C. resident, 

19 an attorney here, a Sierra Club volunteer, 

20 although I don't represent the Sierra Club. I've 

21 been an Eagle Scout. I'm a Christian. Bicycled 

22 across the United States. But perhaps more than 

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1 anything I'm a human being who lives on Earth and 

2 I support your standards and rules and wish they 

3 could be somewhat even more strong than they are 

4 now. 

5 Carbon is a pollutant. Michelle 

6 Bachmann, a representative in the House of 

7 Representatives, has said at one point that Co2 

8 was natural, therefore it was harmless. But she 

9 didn't volunteer to put her head in a plastic 

10 bag, such as we keep plastics away from children 

11 for that reason because toxicity depends on 

12 dosage a lot of times for many things. 

13 Like salt, we need it in our food, but we 

14 can't have too much of it. Even water, if you're 

15 -- some people have run marathons in hot weather 

16 and they sweat out a lot of salts. Their brain 

17 needs a salt content of near sea water, and if 

18 you have too much water and it dilutes it too 

19 much your synapses stop working, you can have 

20 convulsions and die. So dosage is an important 

21 thing and 400 parts per million, which we're 

22 passing now, is heating the planet up noticeably, 

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1 and scientists have recognized that. 

2 I've met James Hanson with the NASA 

3 Climate Scientists several times and heard him 

4 speak, and even talked to him myself. 

5 So as a religious person I'd say that I 

6 saw the orthodox patriarch, Ecumenical patriarch 

7 from Constantinople speak at Georgetown 

8 University a couple years ago, and he said that 

9 the Bible says that God gave man dominion over 

10 the Earth, but that did not mean domination; that 

11 we're not here to destroy everything, we're to 

12 take care of it, and caretaking rather than 

13 wantonness. So that's an aspect that I think 

14 that's important.

15 Because it's easy enough to put short 

16 term goals or personal or corporate profits ahead 

17 of the future of ourselves and our children and 

18 grandchildren and further generations for a long 

19 time. We need to make the transition as smoothly 

20 as possible from the fossil fuels which are 

21 depleting which means that they're disappearing.

22 One would think that we actually hate 

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1 fossil fuels because we're destroying them about 

2 as fast as humanly possible, and we hate the 

3 climate because we're destroying that about as 

4 fast as humanly possible. 

5 But that comes from the lawyerly percent

6 that people intend the logical consequence of 

7 their actions. And if the consequence of our 

8 actions is to destroy fossil fuels and destroy 

9 the climate, that apparently would be what we 

10 intend. Although from our own personal knowledge 

11 of psychology people often do things that they 

12 did not intend. So perhaps we don't consciously 

13 intend to destroy things, we just forget about 

14 it. It just passes by our mind. It's in a 

15 framework which is difficult to comprehend 

16 because a little bit of carbon pollution here and 

17 there doesn't seem to add up, or we turn the 

18 switch, we don’t see anything happening, you 

19 know, to the world at that point. But small 

20 effects added together can have an impact.

21 Now I saw a site on the internet, 

22 Skeptical Science, which said that the amount of 

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1 heat, just the heat not necessarily explosive 

2 impact of the -- that's being added to the Earth 

3 ever minute is equal to about four Hiroshima 

4 bombs and about 2 billion Hiroshima bombs since 

5 1984 in terms of the heat content. So putting 

6 that into an understandable thing, it's a 

7 millimeter -- about a yard is 1,000 -- I mean, a 

8 meter is 1,000 millimeters. That's the 

9 definition.

10 Now 1,000 meters is a kilometer, about 

11 .62 miles. And that would be a million 

12 millimeters, and then you'd have to go 1,000 

13 kilometers, about 620 miles to equal a billion. 

14 And 2 billion would get us to Chicago. And that 

15 would be how man atomic bombs have gone of, of 

16 Hiroshima size, which is relatively small 

17 compared to modern ones since the 1998 in terms 

18 of the heat content. 

19 So maybe that's not understandable, but 

20 it would be like if everybody was running a hot 

21 plate or several hot plates all the time, with 

22 like 1,500 watts all the time. It's just a huge 

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1 amount. Although every little piece doesn't seem 

2 to add up as much.

3 So I think that we should need to be 

4 taking care of the Earth as Ecumenical patriarch 

5 of the Orthodox Church said, although I'm not 

6 Orthodox myself, I agree with that. And I 

7 support your rule. Thank you.

8 MR. PAGE: Thank you, sir. Mr. Saxe. 

9 MR. SAXE: I'm Jeffrey Saxe, S as in Sam, 

10 A-X-E. 

11 And I'm a Rabi at a reform Jewish 

12 congregation called Temple Rode of Shalom in 

13 Falls Church, Virginia. I have some members of 

14 my congregation here with me. I would love it if 

15 they would stand up for just a moment so that we 

16 can be counted.

17 MR. PAGE: Wow.

18 MR. SAXE: Thank you. I have three very 

19 young children who cannot fathom the changes that 

20 we are addressing today, but who are constantly 

21 amazed at the beauty of the world around them. I 

22 draw my inspiration from them. And I also draw 

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1 it from my religious tradition.

2 Judaism teaches us the following story. 

3 After God finished creating the world, God walked 

4 the first humans around the Garden of Eden and 

5 said to them, look at my works. See how 

6 beautiful they are and how excellent. For your 

7 sake I created them all. See to it that you do 

8 not spoil or destroy my world. For if you do 

9 there will be no one else to repair it.

10 I imagine that this warning might have 

11 seem strange to Adam and Eve. How could they 

12 destroy God's creation? What danger was God 

13 alluding to that they could not see? 

14 I'm amazed by this legend, written down 

15 thousands of years ago by sages who, like my 

16 children, could have had no idea of the threats 

17 that the Earth faces today. 

18 I'm amazed also at how difficult it 

19 remains to heed those words for us. Even knowing 

20 everything we know now.

21 In my community there is a group of 

22 dedicated members who are constantly searching 

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1 for ways to help our congregation reduce its 

2 carbon footprint, do a better job minimizing and 

3 recycling the waste created by our 5,000 or so 

4 members, and educate our community on the need to 

5 remember God's warning to humanity. 

6 This is hard work for so many reasons. 

7 Complex problems, competing needs, the difficulty 

8 of helping people remember in their daily lives 

9 to consider consequences that we cannot see. 

10 It's hard to consider our world and its future 

11 when all we can see is what is in front of us 

12 today. This is why we need the wisdom of our 

13 traditions and it is why we need national leaders 

14 who will take action with a larger vision in mind 

15 to protect our future.

16 The environmental leadership team of my 

17 congregation can only do so much, and that is why 

18 they are here with me today. We know that a 

19 solar panel on our temple's rooftop, and a sound 

20 plan to dispose of our waste are only drops in 

21 the sea. You can make a big difference.

22 You can help ensure that we do not 

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1 destroy our world so that my children and yours 

2 can enjoy it. I'm also here today as an 

3 American. This nation is not founded on the idea 

4 of letting events take place around us, come what 

5 may. The American way is to take control of our 

6 own future and work towards a vision of what it 

7 should be.

8 As a Jew I am commanded by my religious

9 traditions not to remain indifferent. As an 

10 American I am asking my leaders to show us a 

11 vision of a strong and healthy Earth and to act 

12 on that vision. 

13 I'm here to be part of that. I have 

14 faith that this country can show leadership in 

15 protecting our world, and I support the EPA's 

16 leadership in making that hope a reality. 

17 Thank you very much for hearing my words.

18 MR. PAGE: Thank you. Thank you both for 

19 your comments. We appreciate you being here 

20 tonight. All of you. 

21 Our next speakers are Brad Bickford and 

22 Derek Meyer.

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1 Gentlemen, thank you for being here 

2 tonight. Mr. Bickford, you're up first. 

3 MR. BICKFORD: Thank you.

4 MR. PAGE: Please spell your name for the 

5 court reporter.

6 MR. BICKFORD: It's Brad Bickford, B as 

7 in boy, I-C-K-F-O-R-D. 

8 And I've been a resident of the District 

9 of Columbia for almost 30 years and want to thank 

10 the EPA for holding these hearings to hear 

11 firsthand how carbon pollution has affected the 

12 citizens of our country.

13 I grew up in this area and used to play

14 soccer, softball, and run track. I never smoked. 

15 And now I don't have the breathing power to fill 

16 my lungs with oxygen for burst of energy to 

17 sprint after or chase balls. 

18 Over the years living in Washington the 

19 air has gotten progressively harder to breathe. 

20 I used to work in Alexandria, Virginia for 17 

21 years as a mental health clinician, where a coal 

22 fired plant was situated next to the Potomac 

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1 River about a mile away. 

2 It pumped out hazardous air pollutants 

3 like mercury, cadmium, chromium, sulfur dioxide, 

4 and nitrogen oxide. I especially recall the 

5 occasional odors of sulfur dioxide, which as you 

6 know smells like rotten eggs when I stepped 

7 outside my office.

8 Fortunately this plant closed about a 

9 year ago, but it still goes on in our nation's 

10 capitol. The Capitol Power Plant, located in a 

11 densely populated area up here in Capitol Hill, 

12 still burns coal and biomass product called Black 

13 Liquor. 

14 It pumps out carbon into the Washington 

15 atmosphere. Breathing this polluted air now for 

16 over 30 years I have developed a slight case of 

17 asthma. Here is my Advair Discus which I have to 

18 use when I participate in either athletic events 

19 or strenuous efforts. It's like a fish out of 

20 water. My breathing is strained and I get tired 

21 more quickly. 

22 I recall President Obama saying that he's 

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1 concerned about what kind of environment he's 

2 going to leave for his daughters. I have my own 

3 first grandchild coming this December, and I 

4 worry what kind of air he or she is going to be 

5 breathing. 

6 I would like to suggest two solutions, 

7 and I have personal experience with both. First, 

8 we can significant decrease coal fossil fuel 

9 burning for energy by supporting and funding 

10 solar energy. On my District home I have 28 

11 solar panels and I am producing pollution-free 

12 endless electric energy. 

13 Thanks to Federal and city grants these 

14 panels, after seven years, are now completely 

15 paid for and I'm actually getting $1,500 a year 

16 from the power grid.

17 Just think how much cleaner the air we 

18 breathe could be from an endless power source 

19 where we don't create scars on mountain tops, 

20 holes in the ground, or kill any aquatic life in 

21 our streams. 

22 I would like to recommend that millions 

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1 of Americans have these panels on their houses. 

2 Millions of dollars spent on health care to treat 

3 bronchial and cardiac disorders could be saved 

4 and redirected into providing all Americans with 

5 carbon-free energy sources. Hundreds of 

6 thousands of children could also be spared of 

7 asthma conditions.

8 And think of the thousands of new jobs 

9 that this will create. Coal miners can escape 

10 their extremely dangerous jobs and be retrained 

11 for jobs with the solar industry. Congress and 

12 our city and states should absolutely continue to 

13 fund and increase tax rebates for solar energy. 

14 This seems to me to be a no-brainer.

15 We now need a national mobilization, like 

16 during World War I and II, to fight for our 

17 survival against global warming. Our 

18 mobilization goal should be to get Americans to 

19 pledge to plant hundreds of thousands of trees 

20 annually. We could solicit private industries to 

21 donate these tree saplings to this cause and 

22 acknowledge them with confirmations continuously 

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1 over the social media. 

2 As we know trees absorb carbon, are 

3 aesthetic, provide cooling in the summer, and 

4 have many other wonderful qualities. Hopefully 

5 the Environmental Protection Agency will continue 

6 to be strong in challenging ignorant, selfish, 

7 profit motivated interests, and educate all 

8 Americans about the seriousness of the situation 

9 we are now facing with global warming. Thank 

10 you.

11 MR. PAGE: Thank you, Mr. Bickford. Mr. 

12 Meyer.

13 MR. MEYER: Thank you ladies and 

14 gentlemen. My name is Derek Meyer, that's D-E-R15 E-K, last name M-E-Y-E-R. 

16 I am a resident of Alexandria, Virginia, 

17 which the gentleman before me just referred to. 

18 I'd also like to thank Mr. Bickford for the 

19 testimony he just gave with which I agree 

20 wholeheartedly. I also wanted to mention I 

21 support the proposed ruling. 

22 As a Sierra Club volunteer I was very 

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1 involved with the final stages of the effort to 

2 close the coal plant in Alexandria that Mr. 

3 Bickford had mentioned. And one thing that I 

4 felt very strongly was that it had taken a huge 

5 amount of effort to close this one very old, very 

6 limited functioning plant that had been relegated 

7 to backup status. And yet it still felt like it 

8 took a tremendous amount of effort to close that. 

9 And yet, we still as a society have 

10 countless more plants like it emitting carbon 

11 today, which is why I think this rule is a 

12 necessary first step, yet only a first step. And

13 it's something that I think too many -- there is 

14 also, I think, too much of a sense that as an 

15 alternative to coal, this view that natural gas 

16 is a good bridge fuel, which in my opinion and 

17 based on numerous scientists that I have heard 

18 speak, it is not. And I would urge people to 

19 focus on renewables. Mr. Bickford was talking 

20 about solar and I would wholeheartedly like to 

21 see more of that, both for its environmental 

22 impact and because it will have a beneficial 

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1 economic impact in reducing the amount of 

2 monopolies of energy utilities.

3 I also think it's important that we do 

4 more with both on and offshore wind, and I'm glad 

5 to see that starting. But these efforts are 

6 only, in this area at least, starting. 

7 My home state of Virginia is playing 

8 catch up, and yet we are among the top states to 

9 be impacted. Both my home city of Alexandria, 

10 and certainly the rest of the east coast of 

11 Virginia, including the Navy facilities in 

12 Hampton Roads and the surrounding communities 

13 there.

14 And those areas are rushing to address 

15 the impact, but not enough is being done to stem 

16 carbon at its source, when we have viable 

17 alternatives and I think the real obstacles are 

18 primarily political and some economic in nature.

19 But I believe that we can change this and 

20 most importantly for the present as well as the 

21 future, we don't need to look to the future to 

22 see the change, we can see many of these changes 

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1 happening now. I think we not only can change 

2 this, we must. And we must do it quickly.

3 And to help move things along I'm going 

4 to conclude there. Thank you very much. 

5 MR. PAGE: Thank you both for coming here 

6 tonight and offering your testimony. Very well 

7 done. Thank you. 

8 All righty. Our next speakers are --

9 okay, Jose DeArteaga. Okay. And Yobani 

10 Olatunji. Wow, you guys are going to have to 

11 help me on these names. The spelling and the 

12 pronunciation. Yobani?

13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'll find her.

14 MR. PAGE: Okay, Allen. Thank you. Why 

15 don't we just wait for one minute? 

16 How do you pronounce your last name?

17 MR. DEARTEAGA: DeArteaga. 

18 MR. PAGE: DeArteaga. Well, I was in the 

19 ball park.

20 MR. DEARTEAGA: Yeah, you did great. 

21 MR. PAGE: Okay. And all right. Why 

22 don't we go ahead?

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1 MR. DEARTEAGA: Okay.

2 MR. PAGE: Let's go ahead and start and 

3 we'll wait for other other speaker to catch up. 

4 Please proceed. And please spell your last name 

5 for the court reporter.

6 MR. DEARTEAGA: Certainly. I'm Jose 

7 DeArteaga. That's J-O-S-E DeArteaga, D-E-A-R-T8 E-A-G-A. 

9 I'm from Washington, D.C. and appreciate 

10 this opportunity to speak in support of including 

11 methane in the President's Climate Action Plan 

12 and EPA's new regulations to reduce carbon 

13 pollution from power plants. 

14 I encourage the EPA to address the issue 

15 of methane, the other major contributor to 

16 current climate crisis. 

17 I recently walked the shores of the 

18 Anacostia River at one of my favorite local 

19 national parks, the Kenilworth Aquatic Gardens, 

20 and I spotted some of my favorite resident birds, 

21 including Osprey, Wild Turkeys, and even a Bald 

22 Eagle.

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1 The toxic emissions from coal fired power 

2 plants harm these birds and disrupt their mating, 

3 breeding, and parenting. In addition, among the 

4 migratory visitors I have noticed early spring 

5 arrivals, early nesting, and later fall 

6 departures. The scientific experts have nearly 

7 unanimously concluded that this is due to climate 

8 change, which in large part is caused by burning

9 coal.

10 In fact, according to the Audubon Society 

11 as a result of climate change nearly 60 percent 

12 of the 305 species found to winter across North 

13 America have shifted their range northward by an 

14 average of 40 miles since 1966. And the EPA 

15 should recognize that methane poses similar 

16 threats and also needs to be regulated.

17 I'd encourage the panel to visit the 

18 Kenilworth Aquatic Gardens and to enjoy the 

19 Osprey and Bald Eagles. Please protect these 

20 birds and cut carbon and methane pollution from 

21 existing power plants and reduce the emissions 

22 for new and modified sources. All our birds are 

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1 counting on you.

2 In fact, when you go to the Kenilworth 

3 Aquatic Gardens take your children or your 

4 grandchildren with you. They are counting on you 

5 as well. Not only will you benefit from the 

6 natural beauty but you will enhance your 

7 relationships with your loved ones. Your visit 

8 will also remind us of our collective obligation 

9 to reduce toxic exposure that causes cancer, 

10 asthma, and other health problems. All our 

11 children are counting on you.

12 In fact, when you go to the Aquatic 

13 Gardens, take a few small business owners with 

14 you. A clean healthy environment is good for the 

15 economy. Bird watching, hiking, picnicking, 

16 canoeing, kayaking are all lucrative parts of our 

17 parochial and national economies. Imagine if we 

18 could make the Anacostia watershed swimmable, 

19 fishable, even snorkelable. Imagine the land 

20 value and positive economic potentials. 

21 And don't forget the coffee and food you 

22 snacked on during your national park visit 

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1 creates jobs that depend on clean water as well. 

2 Our economies are counting on you.

3 In fact when you go to the Kenilworth 

4 Aquatic Gardens take a few economists with you. 

5 We all know innovation drives our economy. In 

6 the energy sector that means renewable sources of 

7 energy like solar and time, thermal and wind. 

8 Not in spending tax payer monies and subsidizing 

9 a small number of wealthy corporations, nor 

10 rescuing their bad investments or stranded 

11 assets. We need to tax carbon, not twist market 

12 conditions in their favor. We need to assure 

13 that the cost of fossil fuel production is 

14 realized with the corporations themselves and not 

15 downstream consumers. Don't let power 

16 corporations externalize their costs in the form 

17 of pollution cleanup amelioration, health care 

18 costs and lost productivity, damage to the 

19 environment, public health is too high, unfair 

20 and unsustainable.

21 If the real cost of fossil fuels 

22 reflected all these variables and corporations

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1 were prohibited from externalizing their 

2 production costs, then real renewable energy 

3 sources would immediately be competitive and 

4 innovation would create better technology and 

5 increase the market share of renewable energy, 

6 thus, please structure your regulations to ensure 

7 these large powerful corporations don’t simply 

8 switch from one dirty fossil fuel, coal, to 

9 another dirty fossil fuel, gas.

10 Please promulgate regulations that 

11 reflect the real cost of carbon and creates a 

12 national renewable energy infrastructure. Don't 

13 construct new carbon rules that promote fracking 

14 for gas in U.S. communities. Promote spending 

15 on renewable sources via strong existing 

16 renewable portfolio standards, not building on 

17 expensive infrastructure and so-called bridge 

18 fossil fuels that are just as toxic. Rather, 

19 spent today's dollars on tomorrow's clean energy, 

20 not yesterday's dirty energy, therefore avoiding 

21 the lateral move from coal to gas, but a vertical 

22 move from dirty to clean. 

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1 The American people know this and there 

2 is precedent. These same companies resisted 

3 regulations designed to heal the effects of acid 

4 rain on forest and lakes in Eastern United 

5 States, caused by sulfur dioxide emissions from 

6 coal fired power plants, and the chemical 

7 companies fought rules designed to stop them from 

8 burning a hole in the ozone layer. 

9 Ask communities that rely on tourism and 

10 clean water in the Adirondacks if the acid rain 

11 regulations worked to save their communities and 

12 economies. 

13 Moreover, in both cases the exact 

14 industries thrived and nature healed. The dire 

15 economic consequences that corporations predicted 

16 not only did not come true, but the opposite 

17 happened. Our economy is counting on you.

18 In fact when you go to the Aquatic 

19 Gardens take a few local and national politicians 

20 with you. A strong national action plan is good 

21 for our democracy, and the President's Climate 

22 Action Plan and EPA's carbon pollution 

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1 protections are a good start to bringing these 

2 people -- bringing your people clean energy. 

3 The American people want clean air and 

4 water. They want to protect wildlife and the 

5 environment. They like to swim and snorkel, and 

6 are in favor in strong effective regulations, 

7 they want what is fair. The American people 

8 don't want to shift the cost of their -- don't 

9 get to shift the cost of their household or small 

10 businesses to their neighbors or dump them into 

11 the public domain. Don't let big corporations do 

12 the same.

13 And they don't want big energy companies 

14 to be able to do that. It's not fair. They want 

15 big corporations -- they don't want big 

16 corporations to exploit public resources and to 

17 unfairly dominate our democracy. Our democracy 

18 is counting on you. 

19 Please tax carbon, address carbon dioxide 

20 and methane, coal and gas, strengthen the 

21 portfolio standards, don't go nuclear, go green, 

22 go lateral -- don't go lateral, go vertical. 

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1 Turn it, don't burn it. Thank you. 

2 MR. PAGE: Thank you very much for coming 

3 here tonight. Appreciate it. 

4 All righty. Our next two speakers are 

5 Elizabeth Monseu and Laura Bender.

6 Welcome. Elizabeth, start when you're 

7 ready.

8 MS. MONSEU: All right. My name is 

9 Elizabeth, nickname Betsy.

10 MR. PAGE: Betsy.

11 MS. MONSEU: Monseu.

12 MR. PAGE: Okay.

13 MS. MONSEU: M-O-N-S-E-U. I'm CEO of the 

14 American Coal Council, or ACC. The ACC has been 

15 in existence for 32 years and represents the 

16 collective business interest of the American Coal 

17 Industry. Our members include coal suppliers, 

18 transportation companies, terminals, electric 

19 utilities, industrial consumers, and industry 

20 support services providers. They touch every 

21 aspect of turning one of America's most abundant 

22 resources into reliable and affordable 

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1 electricity for the United State economy.

2 I appreciate the opportunity to address 

3 EPA's proposed Clean Air Act 111D regulations for 

4 greenhouse gas emissions from EGUs. The rule is 

5 lengthy, complex, and far reaching. Its 

6 implementation would cause serious economic harm, 

7 reduce energy diversity, increase electricity 

8 prices, jeopardize grid reliability, result in 

9 major job losses, and hinder coal technology 

10 advances.

11 Moreover, it will fail to achieve the 

12 administration and EPA's goal of global 

13 leadership on Co2. 

14 The 111D Rule will not meaningful impact 

15 global Co2 emissions. It will, however, alter 

16 U.S. energy policy and manipulate our energy mix. 

17 It will predispose fuel choices for electricity 

18 providers and dramatically transform how 

19 electricity is generated, distributed, 

20 transmitted, and used. 

21 In ACC's comments to EPA on its 111B Rule 

22 for carbon for new fossil plants, we discussed 

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1 the spikes in natural gas prices and 

2 corresponding increased electricity costs during 

3 the harsh winter of 2014. 

4 The winter was a stark reminder of how 

5 quickly and dramatically energy and electricity 

6 markets can change. Many of the same coal plants 

7 which were essential in meeting electricity needs 

8 and avoiding brownouts or blackouts during the 

9 winter are planned for shutdown beginning in 2015 

10 due to EPA MATS rule. AS a result concerns over 

11 resource adequacy, grid reliability, and 

12 electricity pricing have been expressed by a 

13 chorus of elected officials. Policy makers, 

14 regulators, industry, and also consumers. 

15 EPA's proposed 111D Rule greatly 

16 intensifies the concerns. This regulatory path 

17 to diminished coal and force an increase in 

18 natural gas is at odds with robust competitive 

19 energy markets and affordable, reliable 

20 electricity in America.

21 From an economy wide perspective the 

22 projected impacts are staggering. In May 2014 

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1 the U.S. Chamber of Commerce analyzed similar 

2 carbon emission scenarios with the following 

3 results through 2030. One, a lower of U.S. GDP 

4 by 51 billion per year. Two, a loss of 224,000 

5 jobs per year. Three, electricity cost increases 

6 of $289 billion. Four, lowering of total 

7 disposable income for households by $586 billion. 

8 Unfortunately the toll would be the 

9 greatest on the poor, the elderly, small 

10 business, and domestic manufacturing. We have 

11 only to look at the recently repealed carbon tax 

12 in Australia for a reality check. It cost the 

13 economy 8.5 billion annually and increased 

14 electricity costs to families by over $500 per 

15 year. 

16 EPA's 111D Rule would impose tremendous 

17 pain with no gain. It will not meaningfully 

18 impact either U.S. or global Co2 levels. The 

19 same U.S. Chamber of Commerce study estimated 

20 that the resulting U.S. carbon reductions 

21 represent only 1.8 percent of global Co2 

22 emissions, which the International Energy Agency 

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1 projects will otherwise grow by 31 percent. 

2 Unilateral U.S. mandates to decrease 

3 carbon emissions will not spur other countries to

4 take action. Especially developing countries. 

5 They will not risk increasing basic energy costs, 

6 suppressing economic growth, and limiting the 

7 ability to improve the standard of living for 

8 their citizens. 

9 U.S. global climate leaderships should 

10 instead be demonstrated by a strong federal 

11 commitment to technology. Coal was the world's 

12 fastest growing fuel over the past decade and is 

13 projected to surpass oil as the largest energy 

14 source in the future. 

15 Advancing the development of cost 

16 effective coal technologies is the critical path 

17 to global adoption. EPA's proposed 111D Rule is 

18 unworkable. It should be significantly revised 

19 or withdrawn to avoid the economic harm, job 

20 loss, heavy administrative burden, and lack of 

21 benefits of proceeding. ACC requests the EPA 

22 take the following actions now.

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1 Add public hearings, especially in coal 

2 producing states and states most reliant on coal 

3 generation such as West Virginia, Kentucky, Ohio, 

4 Indiana, Missouri, Wyoming, and Utah, provide 

5 interactive forums for stakeholders to address 

6 questions with EPA, extend the 120 day comment 

7 period by at least 60 days, continue and increase 

8 engagement with state and with other agencies 

9 including FERC, NERC, and the Department of 

10 Energy. Thank you.

11 MR. PAGE: Thank you very much. Ms. 

12 Bender.

13 MS. BENDER: Good evening. My name is 

14 Laura Kate Bender. That's B, like boy, E-N-D-E15 R. 

16 I'm the Healthier Coalition coordinator 

17 for the American Lung Association in Virginia. 

18 On behalf of our coalition of public health 

19 groups, medical professionals, and patients with 

20 lung disease and their families, I'm here today 

21 to ask you to protect public health and finalize 

22 strong limits on carbon pollution from existing 

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1 power plants. 

2 I work on the state and local level to 

3 education patients and medical professionals 

4 about the health impacts of air pollution and 

5 climate change. I use data like that from the 

6 Lung Association State of the Air Report, using 

7 EPA's data, which found that in Virginia's 

8 population centers, Richmond, Roanoke, Hampton 

9 Roads, and of course the Washington, D.C. Metro 

10 area, ozone pollution has gotten worse.

11 You've probably heard this report cited 

12 today and yesterday by people who live in areas 

13 that got failing grades for their high levels of 

14 pollution. To me what's even more sobering is 

15 that after nearly two decades of progress in 

16 reducing ozone levels across the country, many 

17 locations actually dropped back down a grade.

18 We're able to correlate that rise in 

19 ozone with the high summer temperatures we saw in 

20 2012. That's consistent with scientist's 

21 predictions that more carbon pollution leads to 

22 higher temperatures and higher temperatures will 

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1 lead to more unhealthy ozone days, undoing much 

2 of the progress we've made in cleaning up our 

3 air.

4 What I've noticed when I work throughout 

5 Virginia, though, is that more often than not 

6 people don't need me to tell them that air 

7 pollution is unhealthy, or that they're breathing 

8 in dangerous levels of soot and smog. They get 

9 it. And they're willing to use their experiences 

10 to advocate for reductions in the carbon 

11 pollution if it continued to worse their air 

12 quality. 

13 That's why a COPD patient in 

14 Fredericksburg was willing to meet with her local 

15 elected officials to advocate for reductions in 

16 the air pollution that keeps her indoors on too 

17 many days. 

18 It's why hospital employees in Hampton 

19 Roads are asking their colleagues to add their 

20 voices in support of the Clean Power Plan. 

21 It's why statewide health groups, 

22 including the Virginia Society for Respiratory 

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1 Care, Central Virginia, and Roanoke Asthma 

2 Coalitions and the Virginia Rural Health 

3 Association have joined the lung association in 

4 advocating for strong reductions in carbon from 

5 existing power plants.

6 It's why a teenager with asthma and her 

7 little sister both extremely active in the 

8 Richmond community traveled here earlier today 

9 with their family to speak before you.

10 The Lung Association urges EPA to go even 

11 further, both by strengthening state emission 

12 reduction targets and shortening the time frame 

13 for compliance to five years. This will also 

14 create more of the immediate positive impacts of 

15 the rule, the co-benefits, the reductions in 

16 particulate matter, ozone precursors, and other 

17 pollutants that come from cutting carbon. And 

18 that will result in fewer asthma attacks, fewer 

19 missed days of work and school, and fewer 

20 premature deaths.

21 Also the American Lung Association does 

22 not support bio-mass combustion for electricity 

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1 production. We ask that you revise the Clean 

2 Power Plan to exclude bio-mass combustion as an 

3 acceptable alternative energy source.

4 I'm an employee of the American Lung 

5 Association, but I'm also one of the more than 

6 700,000 people in Virginia who have asthma. I 

7 know what it's like to spend a day at the 

8 emergency room, even a week in the hospital 

9 because of asthma exacerbations. 

10 I also know that after many years of 

11 improvement I've noticed lately that my symptoms 

12 have worsened. It's not something I take 

13 lightly. It means I spent less time doing the 

14 activities I enjoy, like running outside. It 

15 means it takes me longer to recover from the 

16 common cold, meaning lost productivity. And it 

17 means that I go through more inhalers and other 

18 medications and that gets expensive.

19 Of course I can't say that my worsening 

20 asthma symptoms are caused by climate change, but 

21 what I can say is that ozone, as well as 

22 allergens including pollens, exacerbate my 

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1 asthma. And we're already seeing both of those 

2 triggers increase in a way that's consistent with 

3 what scientists say will happen as a result of 

4 the warming climate.

5 I ask you on behalf of the American Lung 

6 Association of Virginia, and the many people we 

7 work with who treat or are treated for chronic 

8 lung disease, please strengthen and finalize the 

9 Clean Power Plan. Thank you. 

10 MR. PAGE: All right. Thank you both 

11 for your testimony tonight. We appreciate it. 

12 All righty. For the sake of efficiency 

13 the speakers that are arriving now are being 

14 routed into the conference room B, but I wanted, 

15 before we adjourned this hearing to make sure 

16 that, is there anybody here that had intended to 

17 speak? You can speak here. You've got a very 

18 attentive panel here. Or you can go over into 

19 the room B, hearing room B, and be heard over 

20 there if you need a little bit more time to think 

21 about what you were going to say or prepare. 

22 Is there anybody here who would like to 

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1 address the panel tonight?

2 All right. Well, if you change your 

3 mind there's another panel over there that are no 

4 less agreeable than we are. But anyway, thank 

5 you all for coming and we appreciate your support 

6 of these public hearings by being here. We've 

7 had a lot of great testimony over the last 

8 several days and certainly have a lot to do in 

9 terms of compiling the testimonies and 

10 summarizing them and then briefing our senior 

11 managers in the agency about what the options 

12 are.

13 So with that I'm going to adjourn this 

14 particular hearing and I'm going to probably go 

15 over to the next room over there and listen to 

16 some testimony myself. It will be nice to be in 

17 the audience. Thank you all very much. 

18 (Hearing concluded at 6:47 p.m.)

19

20

21

22

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