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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

+ + + + +

COMMERCIAL REFRIGERATION EQUIPMENT NOTICE OF 

PROPOSED RULEMAKING PUBLIC MEETING ON TEST 

PROCEDURES

+ + + + +

PUBLIC MEETING

+ + + + +

WEDNESDAY

DECEMBER 5, 2013

+ + + + +

The Public Meeting met in Room 

8E-089, James Forrestal Building, 1000 

Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., 

at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Meeting 

Facilitator, presiding.

PRESENT

DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, 

Public Solutions, Inc. 

TIM ANDERSON, Hussmann Corporation

ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy

JEFF BAUMAN, National Refrigeration and

Air Conditioning Products, Inc.

MARY DANE, Traulsen Refrigeration

BRUCE HIERLMEIER, Zero Zone

CHARLIE HON, True Manufacturing Company

BYRON HORAK, Intertek

STEVEN KING, Royston, LLC

CHARLES LLENZA, Department of Energy

MASSOUD NESHAN, Southern Store

 Fixtures, Inc.

JOE SANDERS, Traulsen Refrigeration
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RON SHEBIK, Hussmann Corporation (via

teleconference)

NICK SCHRINER, Arneg USA

LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy 

Efficiency Alliance 

ANWAR SUHARNO, Royston, LLC

JENNIFER TIEDEMAN, Department of Energy

COLLIN WEBER, Navigant Consulting

SARAH WIDDER, Pacific Northwest

National Laboratory

LAUREN ZELINSKI, Air-Conditioning,

Heating, and Refrigeration

Institute

ALSO PRESENT:

LAURA BARHYDT, Department of Energy

GREGORY ROSENQUIST, Lawrence Berkeley

National Laboratory
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A-G-E-N-D-A

Welcome, Introductions, Agenda Review and 

Opening Statements ......................... 4

Doug Brookman

Rulemaking History and Timeline .......... 10

Charles Llenza

Test Procedure Scope and Definitions ..... 16

Sarah Widder

Clarifications to the Test Procedure ..... 119

Collin Weber

Other Test Procedure Issues ............. 163

Sarah Widder

Closing Remarks and Contacts and 

Information ............................. 227

Charles Llenza
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 9:01 a.m.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, 

4 everyone. Welcome. This is the U.S. 

5 Department of Energy's public meeting on the 

6 test procedure for commercial refrigeration 

7 equipment.

8 Today is December 5, 2013 here in 

9 the Forrestal Building in Washington, D.C. 

10 My name's Doug Brookman from Public Solutions

11 in Baltimore. I'm glad to see you here this 

12 morning. 

13 We're going to start with 

14 welcoming remarks from Ashley Armstrong.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'd just like 

16 to welcome you. My name is Ashley Armstrong.

17 I oversee the development of all the test 

18 procedures coming out of the Department as 

19 well as some of our testing and compliance 

20 efforts here.

21 We appreciate you guys all taking 

22 the time to travel and we also appreciate 
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1 those participating by webinar.

2 The purpose of today is really to 

3 gain your feedback. So we encourage you to 

4 ask a lot of questions, provide us your 

5 opinions on things. It really will help us 

6 get to a better answer in the end.

7 And we're looking forward to the 

8 discussion. So thanks again.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Let's 

10 do introductions; that's where we typically 

11 start. Start to my immediate left, your name

12 and organization. 

13 MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson, 

14 Hussmann Corporation.

15 MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce 

16 Hierlmeier, Zero Zone.

17 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, 

18 Southern Store Fixtures.

19 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 

20 Manufacturing.

21 MS. DANE: Mary Dane, Traulsen.

22 MR. SCHRINER: Nick Schriner, 
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1 Arneg USA.

2 MS. ZELINSKI: Lauren Zelinski, 

3 AHRI.

4 MR. HORAK: Byron Horak from 

5 Intertek.

6 MR. BAUMAN: Jeff Bauman, 

7 National Refrigeration.

8 MR. KING: Steven King, Royston 

9 LLC.

10 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, 

11 Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance.

12 MS. TIEDEMAN: Jennifer Tiedeman, 

13 DOE general counsel.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, 

15 DOE.

16 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, 

17 Pacific Northwest National Lab.

18 MR. WEBER: Collin Weber, 

19 Navigant.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, 

21 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks to 
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1 all of you. And again, welcome. Thanks for 

2 being here so we can get an early start on 

3 this day.

4 All of you received a packet of 

5 information as you came in this morning and 

6 I'm going to do a very brief agenda review. 

7 Immediately following this agenda review 

8 there is an opportunity for anybody that 

9 wishes to do so to make brief opening 

10 remarks, summary statements about issues that

11 matter to you at the outset here.

12 Following that we're going to 

13 hear a rulemaking history and timeline, and 

14 then proceeding immediately toward a

15 description of the test procedure scope and 

16 definitions. 

17 We'll take a break midmorning 

18 round about 10:30 or so and then 

19 clarifications to the test procedure. And 

20 another break it has listed at noon-ish. 

21 We'll see how that goes, see how far we are 

22 along at that point.
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1 But then whenever we get there 

2 other test procedure issues. And then again,

3 projected to end today around 1:15 or so.

4 As we get close to closing 

5 another opportunity for anybody that wants to

6 make statements for the record, raise 

7 additional issues, make sure your issues are 

8 fully covered. So that's the plan.

9 I'd ask for your consideration if 

10 you would please speak one at a time. Please

11 say your name each time you speak. Say your 

12 name for the record and there will be a 

13 complete transcript of this meeting. If you 

14 could keep the focus here, put your cell 

15 phones on silent mode and limit sidebar 

16 conversations. 

17 Be concise and share the air18 time. And I'll be queuing individuals by 

19 name as best I can. I wish to encourage 

20 follow-on comments. Sometimes the back and 

21 forth is very useful to the Department as 

22 they consider the merits of these arguments.
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1 For those of you that joined us 

2 by the web, welcome. The Department of 

3 Energy is trying hard to make these meetings 

4 successful via the web. We hope the 

5 transmission quality is good and is working 

6 well for you. 

7 Please keep your phones on mute 

8 as you listen. And you can raise your hand 

9 in the software program and our webmaster 

10 will insert you in the conversation and 

11 hopefully that will work. 

12 And if not you can send your 

13 questions or comments via the software and 

14 she'll hand it to me and then I'll read it 

15 into the record and we'll get that bit of 

16 information into the conversation here.

17 So, I think that's all the 

18 preliminary stuff. I see Charles Llenza is 

19 at the microphone. And Charles Llenza for a 

20 rulemaking history and timeline.

21 Oh pardon me, do opening remarks 

22 first. I skipped a step. Let's do opening 
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1 remarks first. Anybody that wants to make an

2 opening statement. No opening statements? 

3 Okay. So I didn't skip a step. Charles 

4 Llenza.

5 MR. LLENZA: Okay, I'm just going 

6 to go over quickly on a little bit of a 

7 format here. 

8 Today's meeting is to present the 

9 proposed test procedure for commercial 

10 refrigeration equipment. It's actually 

11 amendments to the actual test procedure 

12 that's in place. 

13 And we encourage the participants 

14 to provide a summary of your comments in 

15 written form if possible and provide that and

16 send that in through our -- to the docket and

17 through our email system.

18 This Notice of Proposed 

19 Rulemaking comment period closes on January 

20 13, 2014.

21 You will see these issue boxes as 

22 we go through the presentation. These are 
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1 particular questions that the Department is 

2 interested in finding answers to and these 

3 are -- we've highlighted some of these 

4 questions in the presentation but a list of 

5 the issues are in the NOPR document and 

6 that's available at that link.

7 We also have a process or a 

8 procedure on how to submit comments. Please 

9 include the docket number and the RIN number.

10 And things should be sent to the 

11 email on the slide. It could be sent via 

12 postal or courier to Brenda Edwards and 

13 that's the address. Again, January 13, 2014 

14 is the end of the comment period.

15 Let me start with a little bit of 

16 the rulemaking history. EPCA as amended 

17 directs that the test procedure for 

18 commercial refrigeration equipment determined

19 to be generally an industry testing procedure

20 and rating procedures developed or recognized

21 by ASHRAE or by ANSI. And here's the 

22 reference to the ANSI standard.
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1 The initial test procedures for 

2 self-contained refrigerator freezers and 

3 equipment went into effect January 1, 2005.

4 EPCA also states that if ASHRAE 

5 117 is amended, the Secretary must rule and 

6 amend the DOE test procedures to ensure 

7 consistency with the amended ASHRAE 117 

8 standards unless certain findings are made 

9 clear and convincing.

10 If a test procedure other than 

11 ASHRAE 117 is approved by ANSI the Secretary 

12 must review. And at least once every 7 years

13 DOE must conduct an evaluation of the test 

14 procedure. This is by statute.

15 In the current CRE test 

16 procedure, On December 2006 DOE established 

17 a test procedure for commercial refrigeration

18 equipment using the commercial test procedure

19 from ARI Standard 1200-2006.

20 That standard also happens to 

21 refer to the ASHRAE Standard 72-2005 as the 

22 test method.
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1 DOE adopted AHAM Standard HRF-1-

2 2004 for measuring refrigerator compartment 

3 volume. This is all part of the current test

4 procedure that was adopted by the Department.

5 On February 21, 2012 DOE issued a 

6 test procedure final rule which amended the 

7 first established test procedure. And that 

8 test procedure updated references to the 

9 industry’s test procedures, incorporated a 

10 method for evaluating the energy impacts and 

11 allowed commercial refrigeration equipment 

12 which cannot achieve the specific rating 

13 temperature to instead be tested at the 

14 lowest temperature at which it is able to 

15 operate.

16 In today's proposed test 

17 procedure revisions since the publication of 

18 2012 test procedure DOE has received several 

19 inquiries from interested parties.

20 So, this is a summary basically 

21 of those, but not exclusive but a summary of 

22 the highlights of these inquiries.
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1 The inquiries had to do with the 

2 applicability for the DOE test procedure and 

3 the current federal energy conservation 

4 standard to various equipment and features, 

5 the definition of certain terms, the proper 

6 configuration of the use of certain 

7 components and features, the proper 

8 application of certain test procedure 

9 provisions, and the compliance date for 

10 certain provisions specific to the DOE test 

11 procedure of 2012.

12 So the NOPR proposes a number of 

13 test procedure revisions in response to these

14 inquiries. Some of them are listed but 

15 there's others included in the actual NOPR.

16 During the summer of 2013 DOE 

17 initiated a negotiated rulemaking process for

18 certification for commercial heating, 

19 ventilation, air conditioning and 

20 refrigeration and water heating equipment.

21 During these negotiations 

22 discussions were held for the treatment of 
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1 certain features of product attributes 

2 specific to commercial refrigeration 

3 equipment under the DOE test procedure.

4 There's been some consensus 

5 reached regarding treatment of these features

6 and it was agreed that these clarifications 

7 be codified in a future rulemaking which is 

8 part of what we're trying to do with our 

9 NOPR.

10 This test procedure NOPR contains 

11 proposals reflecting these positions agreed 

12 upon through the negotiated rulemaking. So 

13 this was just adding a few other parameters 

14 to this revision of the TP NOPR.

15 We'll use the regular TP NOPR 

16 approval process which will be -- the already

17 published NOPR and thea comment period. 

18 Once that comment period will close, we will

19 go back and deliberate upon the comments and 

20 come up with a final rule and that would then

21 be published at some future date.

22 And that's online and can be 
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1 looked up at the link that's provided here on

2 this web page, on this slide.

3 A little bit of the timeline. We 

4 published October 28. Today we are having 

5 the TP NOPR public meeting. We're looking at

6 spring 2014 for a final rule and the proposed

7 final rule has an effective date 30 days 

8 after publication. And that's what I have 

9 for my part of the presentation.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Questions 

11 or comments before we proceed? Okay, I see 

12 none. Sarah Widder?

13 MS. WIDDER: All right. Thank 

14 you, Charlie and thanks, Doug. 

15 As I said before my name's Sarah 

16 Widder and right now we're going to go 

17 through some slides that present a few 

18 clarifications to DOE's test procedure scope 

19 and particularly some definitions that will 

20 help codify those clarifications of scope.

21 So first, this is the definition, 

22 DOE's definition of commercial refrigeration 
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1 equipment that we're all pretty familiar 

2 with. So, a commercial product, not a 

3 consumer product, designed and marketed for -

4 - not designed and marketed for medical, 

5 scientific and research purposes, operates at

6 chilled or frozen temperatures, stores 

7 merchandise horizontally, vertically, or 

8 semi-vertically, has doors or no doors in a 

9 variety of configurations, is designed for 

10 pull-down temperature applications or holding

11 temperature applications and can be self12 contained or remote.

13 So, that is a very large or very 

14 broad definition. And that covers a lot of 

15 commercial refrigeration equipment that you 

16 all manufacture or we all use, some of which 

17 DOE has set standards for, but not all. 

18 So, there's some types of 

19 commercial refrigeration equipment that DOE 

20 does not currently have standards for. And 

21 this slide just clarifies that. CRE's test 

22 procedure is applicable to some types --
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1 similarly, DOE's test procedure is applicable

2 to some types of commercial refrigeration 

3 equipment and there are some types of 

4 commercial refrigeration equipment that 

5 cannot be tested using DOE's test procedure. 

6 And those two things are not perfectly 

7 aligned. 

8 So, DOE's CRE test procedure is 

9 applicable to all the equipment for which DOE

10 has established standards and in addition, 

11 for example, this griddle stand you can see 

12 in the slide can be tested using the DOE test

13 procedure and representations regarding the 

14 energy composite of that equipment should be 

15 made using the DOE test procedure, although 

16 it's not covered by standards.

17 The equipment on the right, prep 

18 tables and salad bar tables, buffet tables 

19 that are also refrigerated and fall under the

20 scope of commercial refrigeration equipment 

21 cannot be tested under DOE's current test 

22 procedure and so they are not subject to the 
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1 same requirements regarding representations 

2 and are not subject to standards. 

3 This is just a clarification of 

4 the scope of CRE's standards. All three of 

5 those types of equipment that were given as 

6 examples before are not currently covered by 

7 energy conservation standards.

8 And as we all know these 

9 standards are listed at 10 CFR 431.66 and any

10 new standards for equipment would be added to

11 that section.

12 To clarify this scope, since 

13 there are some types of commercial 

14 refrigeration equipment with drawers that 

15 could physically resemble chef bases or, you 

16 know, more unique types of commercial 

17 refrigeration equipment the DOE proposes to 

18 differentiate this equipment by establishing 

19 a specific definition for chef base or 

20 griddle stand. That definition is listed 

21 here. 

22 Chef base or griddle stand means 
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1 commercial refrigeration equipment that is 

2 designed and marketed for the express purpose

3 of having a griddle or other cooking 

4 equipment placed on top of it that is capable

5 of reaching temperatures hot enough to cook 

6 food.

7 And with that we reach our first 

8 request for comment. DOE is requesting 

9 comment on this definition and how it applies

10 to the type of equipment DOE is wishing to 

11 exclude from standards at this time.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Is this a new 

13 definition?

14 MS. WIDDER: This is a new 

15 definition to be added to 10 CFR 431.62. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

17 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 

18 Manufacturing. Question for you. Under the 

19 same classification there are other units 

20 which are not -- they're basically the same 

21 as doored units but have drawers instead of 

22 doors. Are they going to fall under a 
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1 special classification as well?

2 MS. WIDDER: This definition is 

3 just with regard to equipment that is 

4 designed to be placed in extremely hot 

5 environments under a griddle. 

6 Those types of equipment that 

7 have drawers and not doors, but are in other

8 ways similar to conventional commercial 

9 refrigeration equipment will be addressed 

10 later in the slides. But yes, we'll get to 

11 that in a few slides.

12 MR. HON: Okay. Because the only 

13 issue with these products is they have to 

14 have a lot of capacity. 

15 MS. WIDDER: Right.

16 MR. HON: Because of the heat 

17 load on top of them.

18 MS. WIDDER: Right. Thank you. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thoughts on this 

20 proposed definition? Massoud.

21 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, 

22 Southern Store Fixtures. 
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1 Could you go back to your slides 

2 where you were showing cases that -- right 

3 here. What is so difficult about testing or 

4 using the DOE test procedure on the equipment

5 shown on the very right-hand side?

6 MS. WIDDER: Well, the issue with 

7 the DOE test procedure and applying it to 

8 this equipment is that it's not 

9 representative of their use. So there's not 

10 provisions in the test procedure to specify 

11 whether these pans that contain the food and 

12 the temporary door above them should be open 

13 or closed or for how long, or what types of 

14 test packages should be placed in those bins.

15

16 So it's just not specific enough 

17 for this type of equipment and not 

18 representative of their use in the field 

19 which is what's required for a DOE test 

20 procedure. 

21 MR. NESHAN: Yes, but that 

22 equipment in the middle, there's no temporary
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1 door opening, closing, or anything, just open

2 display. Isn't it?

3 MS. WIDDER: Well, but similarly 

4 it has the same problem with pans. And the 

5 DOE test procedure doesn't specify how test 

6 packages should be placed in those pans, how 

7 they should be filled, how they relate to 

8 calculation of the refrigerated volume, for 

9 example. 

10 So the DOE test procedure would 

11 describe the refrigerated volume behind these

12 doors that are on the lower part, but doesn't

13 describe whether or not the pans are included

14 in the refrigerated volume calculation. And 

15 those types of specifics are important to get

16 right so that this equipment is rated 

17 consistently among manufacturers and test 

18 labs.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Byron.

20 MR. HORAK: Are there plans to 

21 specify the loads in the door openings for 

22 this type of product in the near future?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you talking 

2 about the middle one?

3 MR. HORAK: Both of those, 

4 actually.

5 MS. WIDDER: Both of them. 

6 They're not being considered in this 

7 rulemaking.

8 MR. HORAK: Okay.

9 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 

10 Manufacturing. There is an NSF test 

11 procedure to verify these products but it is 

12 still -- it would require additional add-ons 

13 to that test procedure because it's run with 

14 certain products, certain media samples, a 

15 long list of information. But it is run 

16 using the ASHRAE 72 test standards at the 

17 pace of the product with additional add-ons.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: If I'm not 

19 mistaken we still haven't received any 

20 comment on this proposed definition. So I 

21 guess no comment. How should we take that? 

22 One or two individuals have just given me a 
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1 thumbs up. I guess that's --

2 MS. WIDDER: Agreement.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Massoud?

4 MR. NESHAN: Yes, Southern Store 

5 Fixtures. You have in this one on what the 

6 definition, it says that cooking equipment. 

7 Why not warming equipment? Wouldn't the 

8 warming equipment be part of it? Could it be

9 covered? It has to be only cooking?

10 MS. WIDDER: So, the DOE's 

11 understanding of this type of equipment and 

12 what makes it unique is the increased 

13 refrigeration capacity that's required to 

14 have cooking equipment that is extremely warm

15 on top of it, hot enough to cook food. So 

16 that's how it's been defined here.

17 We welcome comment on whether or 

18 not this definition would need to be expanded

19 to include warming comment, and if so, how it

20 could be expanded.

21 The key would be to differentiate 

22 whether or not that type of commercial 
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1 refrigeration equipment that is associated 

2 with warming equipment is really in fact from

3 a technical design standpoint different than 

4 the type of griddle stand, chef base and 

5 griddle stand we're attempting to define 

6 here.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Is warming 

8 equipment covered?

9 MS. WIDDER: Not under commercial 

10 refrigeration equipment.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Charlie.

12 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 

13 Manufacturing. We have sold these types of 

14 items to people who put a warming cabinet on 

15 top of them, but we designed for the harsh 

16 case because the vast majority of the product

17 is sold with either -- especially the chef's 

18 base stand with usually fairly high 

19 temperatures for cooking steak.

20 MS. WIDDER: Right.

21 MR. HON: And that's where the 

22 majority of the market is. So if we sell 
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1 anything else it would be the same type of 

2 equipment.

3 MS. WIDDER: Thank you, Charlie.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks. I 

5 think we've covered that one, yes? Let's 

6 move on.

7 MS. WIDDER: Okay, there we go. 

8 So, this is just another clarification of how

9 DOE's test procedures and standards are 

10 applied to equipment.

11 We're all familiar with the 

12 definition of a basic model for commercial 

13 refrigeration equipment and each basic model 

14 of commercial refrigeration equipment, that's

15 the unit that is certified to DOE for 

16 comparison and compliance with standards. 

17 And it's rated and tested and subject to 

18 those standards based on the equipment class 

19 to which that basic model belongs.

20 And we've just received some 

21 questions from -- some inquiries from 

22 interested parties regarding the application 
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1 of test procedures and standards to equipment

2 that are shipped with after-market doors for 

3 equipment that's offered for sale from the 

4 manufacturer with doors as an optional 

5 accessory.

6 Regardless of how that unit is 

7 shipped that unit must be tested and 

8 certified as equivalent to a basic model 

9 shipped with doors pre-installed, similar to 

10 other optional accessories that affect energy

11 use. 

12 Okay, moving on. This is just a 

13 reminder of DOE's categorization of 

14 commercial refrigeration equipment, how we 

15 determine which equipment goes in which 

16 class. 

17 And we have a comment. I wonder 

18 if I have a request for comment? Okay, let's

19 take it.

20 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman 

21 from National. I apologize, if I can step 

22 back a little bit, Sarah.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

2 MR. BAUMAN: When they say that 

3 the equipment is offered for sale with doors 

4 as an optional accessory, I'm just trying to 

5 get clarification on that. Because you could

6 have -- two areas where I think that is some 

7 manufacturers make open cases that do doors. 

8 Some manufacturers make drawer units, 

9 they're primarily sold with drawers, but you 

10 can get doors on them.

11 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

12 MR. BAUMAN: So you would have to 

13 test it. Can you just explain how that would

14 work with both? You'd have to list it with 

15 doors as well as drawers?

16 MS. WIDDER: Yes. So, to the 

17 extent -- Ashley can go ahead.

18 MR. BAUMAN: Okay, I think 

19 there's a hole there, yes.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: You picked the 

21 one hole, you did. You got it.

22 So, slide 24 is meant to 
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1 distinguish the difference between open and 

2 closed. So, regardless of whether -- if you 

3 ship the unit integrated with doors, or if 

4 you ship them in a separate box as add-on 

5 doors it's a closed unit. You need to 

6 certify it, you need to test it, you need to 

7 be compliant with the closed standards.

8 What she hasn't gotten to yet, 

9 slide 26, the drawers, when she gets there --

10 MS. WIDDER: Yes, we'll get 

11 there.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- we're equating 

13 drawers with doors. So it's like a singular 

14 unit. You wouldn't necessarily do them both.

15 But she'll get there.

16 MS. WIDDER: Yes, we'll get 

17 there.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Twenty-four is 

19 open versus closed.

20 MR. BAUMAN: Okay, thanks for 

21 clarification.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: The Department is 
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1 aware that some people are putting doors in a

2 separate box and saying, you know, these 

3 aren't closed cases. And in the Department's

4 eyes those are closed cases.

5 MS. WIDDER: Okay, so that's a 

6 pretty clear issue. If there's no other 

7 comments we'll move onto clearly the most 

8 interesting issue which has to do with 

9 drawers versus doors.

10 So, DOE interprets the term 

11 "door" to mean any movable component of the 

12 commercial refrigeration unit that when 

13 closed separates the interior refrigerated 

14 space from the ambient air which is what 

15 makes it closed, and when opened provides 

16 access to the refrigerated product inside the

17 CRE unit which is the intention of the door.

18 By that definition DOE considers 

19 drawers to be doors for the purposes of 

20 compliance under DOE's regulatory program 

21 since a drawer would also meet both of those 

22 criteria. So compliance for equipment with 
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1 drawers is determined based on the standard 

2 level for the equipment class with doors as 

3 tested in accordance with DOE test 

4 procedures.

5 So, in answer, like Ashley said, 

6 just reiterating a piece of equipment with 

7 opaque doors or opaque drawers would be in 

8 the same equipment class and subject to the 

9 same standard.

10 If it was a clear door versus 

11 opaque drawers those equipment would be 

12 different because it would be transparent 

13 versus closed cases.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Massoud?

15 MR. NESHAN: Yes, Neshan with 

16 Southern Store Fixtures.

17 Based on this definition the 

18 night curtain, it becomes a door then. 

19 Because any moving component is considered to

20 be a door. And meets the definition of 

21 separating the refrigerated area from the 

22 outside and all that.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

2 MR. NESHAN: The night curtain 

3 becomes a door which is not accurate.

4 MS. WIDDER: Well, and clearly 

5 not the intent. It is -- definitely DOE's 

6 intent is a permanently affixed movable 

7 component. 

8 And that's a good comment, 

9 Massoud. We'll take that under 

10 consideration. 

11 MR. HON: Unfortunately there are 

12 a lot -- Charlie Hon -- there are a lot of 

13 night curtains that are permanently affixed, 

14 factory-installed.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we should say 

16 excluding night curtains and that would do 

17 it, right?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Are night curtains 

19 enough of a distinctive descriptor?

20 MS. WIDDER: They're defined in 

21 our regulations.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. HON: I think it would be 

2 very clear then.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. 

4 Thank you. That was productive.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yes, great.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional 

7 comments here before we move on?

8 MS. WIDDER: We have a request 

9 for comment on the next slide so can I just 

10 get there?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Please do.

12 MS. WIDDER: All right, great. 

13 So, this is just -- DOE recognizes that 

14 probably some of this confusion came from the

15 fact that "door" is not defined in our 

16 current regulations. 

17 And so, to clarify, DOE is 

18 proposing to establish this definition of 

19 "door" in 10 CFR 431.62. "Door" means a 

20 movable panel that separates the interior 

21 volume of a unit of commercial refrigeration 

22 equipment from the ambient environment, is 
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1 designed to facilitate access to the 

2 refrigerated space for the purposes of 

3 loading and unloading product, and is affixed

4 such that it is not removable without the use

5 of tools. This includes hinged doors, 

6 sliding doors and drawers. 

7 And as we just discussed on the 

8 previous slide we may add an explicit 

9 exclusion of night curtains.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. One way or 

11 the other.

12 MS. WIDDER: So we do, we request 

13 comment on this proposed definition, and in 

14 particular, specifications that the term is 

15 inclusive of drawers.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So, comments on 

17 this definition. No additional comments. 

18 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Massoud.

20 MR. NESHAN: Yes, Neshan. One 

21 point of clarification.

22 MS. WIDDER: Sure.
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1 MR. NESHAN: A door means a 

2 movable panel part that meets all those three

3 definitions?

4 MS. WIDDER: Correct.

5 MR. NESHAN: So if it only meets 

6 two of them it's not considered a door then, 

7 right?

8 MS. WIDDER: Correct.

9 MR. NESHAN: Okay, good. Thank 

10 you.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

12 MR. STARR: Just a question. 

13 Just kind of following up on what he said. 

14 So, if the drawer comes out it's not fixed 

15 then. Does that mean it's not a door 

16 anymore?

17 MS. WIDDER: Right. Well, that's 

18 a very good comment. That will be something 

19 we have to consider in establishing a final 

20 definition. 

21 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. A lot of 

22 doors -- this is a very bad definition 
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1 because a lot of doors are lift-off. You 

2 open the door, lift it off and take it off to

3 clean it. They just were built so they just 

4 literally lift up.

5 MS. WIDDER: So perhaps instead 

6 of number 3 we just establish the exclusion 

7 of night curtains and don't talk about how 

8 it's affixed.

9 MR. HON: That's a bit of a 

10 loaded gun.

11 MS. WIDDER: All right. Thank 

12 you for that.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

14 Charlie. Okay. Additional comments on the 

15 definition? Charlie?

16 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. There's 

17 also some issues there because number 3 is so

18 ambiguous because sliding doors slide out and

19 can be removed the same way. So there would 

20 be a major ambiguity there as well.

21 MS. WIDDER: Right.

22 MR. HON: Drawers are the same 
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1 way. So number 3 is a disaster in every 

2 aspect.

3 MS. WIDDER: All right.

4 (Laughter)

5 MS. WIDDER: We appreciate your 

6 comments.

7 MR. HON: I could use every one 

8 of those to my advantage because every one of

9 them would take them out of classification.

10 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

11 MR. HON: Because hinged doors 

12 can be lifted off, sliding doors, you just 

13 lift it up and pull them out, maintain your 

14 draw cord, and drawers quite often have a 

15 quick release pin and away you go.

16 MS. WIDDER: So, if we ignore 

17 number 3 --

18 MR. HON: Number 3, every one of 

19 the categories would get you trouble.

20 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So, but if we 

21 ignore number 3 and we pretend that that's 

22 not part of the definition, but would number 
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1 1 and number 2 with the explicit exclusion of

2 night curtains added be a sufficient 

3 definition? Or would you also find issue 

4 with that definition?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the other 

6 option is to not have a definition at all. 

7 And so we did it for a reason. 

8 We felt there was a need for one and we were 

9 filling the need. But it sounds like it may 

10 be also causing more harm than good. We 

11 could leave it ambiguous and then it would be

12 DOE's discretion.

13 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon 

14 again. The first sentence in number 3 is the

15 problem. Affixed such that it is not 

16 removable without the use of tools, that's 

17 the problem. Because all those -- there are 

18 samples of every one of those that have 

19 releases on them or something where you don't

20 need a tool other than your index finger to 

21 remove them. That's where the problem comes 

22 in. They all would fit the standard and 
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1 should fit the standard as a hinged door, a 

2 sliding door, or drawers. But the use of 

3 tools is a problem. 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, when 

5 you go to write your comments I think we have

6 all heard that number 3 should just be 

7 scrapped altogether regardless of whether we 

8 decide to -- if we decide to ultimately adopt

9 a definition.

10 But when you go to write your 

11 comments, if you do end up writing additional

12 comments, if you could think about the idea, 

13 the premise here is that we were trying to 

14 make clear that a door in DOE's reg is not 

15 just, you know, it's a hinged door, it's a 

16 sliding door, it is drawers. It is all these

17 things. It's not just, you know. So, is 

18 there a better way to do this? So I ask for 

19 your feedback on that. Okay?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We have a 

21 comment via the web from Joe Sanders, or a 

22 question, in fact. How does it affect the 
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1 cabinet volume calculation versus drawers? 

2 And I think we're getting into this later. 

3 Ashley?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're going to 

5 get into the TDA calculation later.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So Joe, hang 

7 on with that question and we'll try and 

8 address that. Jeff?

9 MR. BAUMAN: I'll just say that 

10 will be volume calculation not TDA --

11 MS. WIDDER: Right.

12 MR. BAUMAN: If it's not a glass 

13 -- unless you have a glass drawer somewhere.

14 MS. WIDDER: Right. And I think 

15 that the clarification there is that the 

16 volume calculation for a drawered unit and a 

17 doored unit would be the same.

18 MR. BAUMAN: And I -- I only 

19 speak for Jeff but I think there would be 

20 questions about with a drawer unit you have 

21 I'll say fixed components inside which in 

22 some of the ways volume are calculated there 
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1 may be considerations of not considering 

2 those part of the volume of the cabinet of a 

3 drawer unit.

4 MS. WIDDER: And Joe or anyone 

5 else is of course welcome to submit comments 

6 on that.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I'm not as 

8 familiar with how you would actually -- I've 

9 never tried to take the volume calculation of

10 a drawered unit. But I've done it for -- my 

11 understanding is it's similar to residential 

12 and I've done it plenty of times for 

13 residential and there are plenty of -- in the

14 HRF document it pretty much will take care of

15 it. At least that's my understanding. You 

16 don't believe it will? Okay, so then we need

17 to deal with it.

18 MR. BAUMAN: I'm not familiar but 

19 I think there would be considerations too for

20 pan capacity. I would think of it as a good 

21 way to do that would be considering pan 

22 capacity of the unit and how much can you put
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1 in the drawers. 

2 You know, you might have a 

3 different numbers you're using for what the 

4 allowable energy is and such, but if you talk

5 about the volume of a refrigerator is 

6 supposed to be how much can the refrigerator 

7 hold. 

8 If you're talking about a drawer 

9 unit it's how much product can you put in 

10 that. How much product space do you have. 

11 I'm not saying -- we'll cover that in our 

12 comments or whatever. You don't need to 

13 answer now. But I'm just saying those are 

14 the types of things that may be.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean when 

16 you cover in your comments I ask -- if you're

17 talking about how much the drawer can hold, I

18 mean my distinction is going to -- what's the

19 difference between how much a drawer can hold

20 and what the refrigerated space is? Is there

21 a difference?

22 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. Yes and we'll 
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1 cover --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: And what should 

3 be accounted for. And so that's where -- I 

4 mean, you know.

5 MR. BAUMAN: Now, my actual 

6 comment was agreeing with Ashley. Surprise.

7 (Laughter)

8 MR. BAUMAN: I actually, I think 

9 the idea, and I don't know what this would do

10 to your having to modify your documents, but 

11 I think -- I want to think I understand why 

12 you're covering doors as hinged doors, 

13 sliding doors and drawers, but I think to a 

14 layman or even anybody reading it, you read 

15 doors, you're thinking doors. Versus going 

16 into where the standards say doors and saying

17 doors are drawers. 

18 You know, I think you can cover -

19 - you can say doors cover hinged doors and 

20 sliding doors. I think saying a drawer is a 

21 door is not intuitive and would be more 

22 confusing for people who aren't necessarily 
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1 reading through the 350 pages of definitions 

2 and things.

3 MS. WIDDER: Right. In response 

4 to that a little bit. And Charlie, this 

5 might be what you were going to say. 

6 It's difficult for the Department 

7 of Energy to change the referenced test 

8 procedure which is ASHRAE 72-2005 unless we 

9 were to incorporate all the relevant 

10 provisions into the CFR directly, to change 

11 every instance of door to door plus drawer, 

12 or door and drawer.

13 However, there's a draft, a 

14 proposed draft of ASHRAE 72-2000 -- maybe 

15 it'll be 14 by the time it's done -- that 

16 does just that.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional 

18 comments here? Okay.

19 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Related to 

20 closed refrigerators, doors and drawers, DOE 

21 also in reviewing the definitions of 

22 application of the test procedure realized 
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1 that there's not a clear differentiation or 

2 definition for differentiating closed cases 

3 from -- or closed solid cases from closed 

4 transparent cases and determining 

5 transparency of a door or material. 

6 Much of this currently seems up 

7 to the manufacturer. There's been some 

8 recent AHRI interpretations related to 

9 determining transparency. And also in 

10 Appendix D there's a small definition of 

11 transparency that references greater than 65 

12 percent light transmittance. 

13 And that's currently part of the 

14 DOE test procedure. However, it's not 

15 explicitly codified. So, to clarify the test

16 procedure DOE prefers a quantifiable method 

17 for determining light transmittance which is 

18 currently not established in the DOE test 

19 procedure or any of its reference documents. 

20 DOE proposes to use an ASTM 

21 method for determining the -- a test method 

22 for determining solar transmittance of sheet 
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1 materials using sunlight. 

2 This is typically applied to 

3 fenestration products but in reviewing the 

4 document DOE finds that the most broadly 

5 applicable document to determining light 

6 transmittance through intended-to-be7 transparent materials, it's the basis for 

8 other industry standard test methods that are

9 applied to fenestration products typically.

10 To incorporate this into the CFR

11 DOE is proposing a definition of 

12 "transparent" as follows. "Transparent" 

13 means greater than or equal to 65 percent 

14 light transmittance as determined in 

15 accordance with ASTM Standard E1084-86(2009).

16

17 And the definition of the 

18 standard at normal incidence which is 

19 directly perpendicular to the door. And a 

20 lot of people might be thinking now do we 

21 have to apply this definition to every door 

22 that we sell and the answer is no. 
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1 This definition will be applied 

2 to determine transparency when there may be 

3 an issue. For example, if the Department 

4 were to test a case and wanted to determine 

5 whether or not a door was transparent because

6 there was some ambiguity, or if there was 

7 some coverings of opaque material this test 

8 procedure could be applied to determine 

9 transparent material from opaque material. 

10 But it is not -- equipment is not 

11 required to be tested to this standard in 

12 order to be incorporated into a piece of 

13 commercial refrigeration equipment. It's 

14 basically like a tiebreaker. And Ashley 

15 might have something to add to that.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't.

17 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

18 MR. BAUMAN: Well, this is Jeff 

19 Bauman from National. Will that be -- what 

20 you just said, Sarah, will that be included 

21 in the documentation or whatever with the 

22 definition that you won't have to test -- do 
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1 a test and clarify this? It will only be --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I've got it. So, 

3 that's the reason for putting it in the 

4 definition. You have fair warning how we 

5 will determine if there's an issue with 

6 whether or not something is transparent or 

7 not. 

8 If you want to use it, you may, 

9 but it's not required as part of the test 

10 procedure. Right? But yes.

11 MR. BAUMAN: Understood. And I 

12 understand that now because I'm sitting 

13 across the table and see the smiling face and

14 explanations that I appreciate. But if 

15 you're going back to the final NOPR or the 

16 final notice, will that be --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll hand you the 

18 transcript and you can hand it back to me if 

19 I ever tell you something different.

20 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we'll -- I 

22 mean, we'll -- I don't know that we'll 
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1 clarify it --

2 MR. BAUMAN: I'm not worried for 

3 myself, for other people that are referenced.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I don't 

5 know how we'll clarify it, but we'll try to 

6 make that as clear as possible.

7 MS. WIDDER: Well, and if you 

8 also look at the reg text that -- if you're 

9 going to submit written comments, if you just

10 look at the regulatory text that's at the 

11 back of the NOPR document there's -- the 

12 definition is established there. 

13 And if you had recommendations 

14 about incorporating that, or language that 

15 could be incorporated to indicate its -- the 

16 optional nature of the requirement we would 

17 welcome those comments.

18 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 

19 Manufacturing. I have some real serious 

20 questions about this because you effectively,

21 if it's below 65 percent light transmittance 

22 therefore it becomes a solid door. Thereby 
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1 requiring less energy -- changes the energy 

2 allowance a great deal.

3 The majority of the losses 

4 through transparent doors are because of the 

5 difference in insulation capacities on a 

6 glass door versus a solid door. There's not 

7 the fenestration issues that are that severe 

8 unless you happen to put it right in direct 

9 sunlight. 

10 So this could be a real stickler 

11 because if we're trying to do what we do 

12 which is save energy we're starting to put 

13 tinting into glass. And if we get too much 

14 tint on a piece of glass theoretically we 

15 could discover that we had 64 percent at a 

16 light transmittance at a certain -- I am 

17 assuming this is a fairly broad spectral 

18 range. 

19 But if we drop to 64 percent 

20 light transmittance it suddenly falls under 

21 solid door which is more stringent. I'm not 

22 sure this is a very good idea at 65 percent. 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think you 

2 understand the intent. Is there a better 

3 way? 

4 You know, I think what we were 

5 trying to do is saying how do you determine 

6 if something is transparent or not. And this

7 is one way, a definitive way, one could argue

8 not a descriptive way. I mean it is a test. 

9 You can tell one way or the other.

10 But I get your point, especially 

11 with the standards rule going on.

12 MR. HON: Right. This is Charlie 

13 Hon again. Sixty-five percent may be the 

14 number that I'm concerned about. 

15 Because we run some pretty dark 

16 shading into some wine cooling type designs. 

17 And it may not be 65 percent transmittance, 

18 but it's still performing as a glass door. 

19 The objective is to see through it. 

20 And it may be that we may want to 

21 -- I'm going to go back and do some testing 

22 to see if that 65 percent number is 
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1 realistic. Or it may need to be 45 or 50 

2 percent. But I think that 50 may be a number

3 that's workable.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

5 Massoud?

6 MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 

7 Store Fixtures. I also have an issue with 

8 this. When you have a self-serve counter 

9 display case a lot of times you put a mirror 

10 finish one way, or see-through mirror finish 

11 sliding doors in the back. That cuts down on

12 the obviously how transparent the glass is. 

13 That's by the customer of course. How would 

14 that be treated?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: In the back of the 

16 cabinet?

17 MR. NESHAN: In the back of the 

18 cabinet, correct. I mean, all of a sudden 

19 you end up with a solid door in the back? 

20 That's --

21 MS. WIDDER: I don't -- oh, so 

22 there's glass on the back of the cabinet but 
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1 it's mirrored?

2 MR. NESHAN: One-way, yes. You 

3 can see from the back but not, you know, 

4 there is coating on --

5 MS. WIDDER: So, yes. This would 

6 be normal incidence from the exterior of the 

7 case. We'll have to clarify that. So if 

8 you're able to see through the glass and it 

9 meets the criteria in the direction, the 

10 intended direction of viewing, we'll have to 

11 work on that definition. So if you have 

12 suggestions please help. Or please submit 

13 them.

14 But in the intended direction of 

15 viewing if it meets the definition I think 

16 that would be the intent. If it's not 

17 optically transparent from both directions 

18 that it would still be glass. Transparent.

19 MR. WEBER: Collin Weber from 

20 Navigant. Just to pile onto that. I don't 

21 think the service over counter definition as 

22 it was proposed or as it was included in the 
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1 act last fall specifies a solid or 

2 transparent door at any point so I don't 

3 think there would be a conflict.

4 MR. NESHAN: Neshan again. It 

5 may not be included. However, when you're 

6 looking at a door, I mean based on the 

7 definition you have -- that case has doors on

8 it. When we are calculating the TDA, the 

9 clear glass on the back falls as part of TDA.

10 If it's not all of a sudden transparent 

11 anymore impacts it overall TDA and that's 

12 what the point is.

13 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. There are 

14 units in the industry which are not service 

15 over counter at all. They're just pass16 through units, double-doored, or they -- the 

17 service people behind the unit can see what's

18 in the unit. And they have a glass 

19 reflective panel on it which is kind of in 

20 the flower cases.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Very 

22 helpful, very constructive additional 
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1 comments here before we move on. So do write

2 really descriptive comments here to help the 

3 Department.

4 MS. WIDDER: Thank you. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

6 MS. WIDDER: Similarly to this 

7 definition of "transparent" DOE determined 

8 that there are not clear definitions in the 

9 CFR to apply that definition of -- that 

10 proposed definition of "transparent" to 

11 closed solid cases and closed transparent 

12 cases, or cases with solid doors versus 

13 transparent doors.

14 DOE determined to define these 

15 terms with respect to the equipment families 

16 that DOE uses to apply standards which is the

17 closed solid and closed transparent 

18 terminology. 

19 And to clarify this, DOE proposes 

20 to establish these two new definitions in the

21 CFR, closed solid and closed transparent, as 

22 follows. Closed solid means equipment with 
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1 doors and in which more than 25 percent of 

2 the outer service area of all doors on a unit

3 is not transparent, applying the proposed 

4 definition of "transparent" that we just saw.

5

6 Closed transparent means 

7 equipment with doors and in which 75 percent 

8 or more of the outer service area of all 

9 doors on a unit is transparent. 

10 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. My 

11 concern on these definitions is specifically 

12 there's a series of units that are out there.

13 Number 1 is that they're pass-through units.

14 Quite often solid doored on one, glass 

15 doored on the other. 

16 Yet technically the glass doors 

17 on the front may only have some trim around 

18 them which technically drops them below 50 

19 percent that way because the solid doors on 

20 the back and the partial solidness of the 

21 front doors would drop you below 50 percent. 

22 And pass-through units are notoriously bad 
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1 because you still have heat loss, the 

2 additional door gaskets and things like that.

3 But then you would immediately turn all 

4 those into solid units which is additional 

5 requirements on loading. 

6 So, I would suggest that it would 

7 not say all units. It would say -- if you're

8 going to do the 75 percent rule which 

9 unfortunately there is -- I'll get into the 

10 second argument in a second, but I would say 

11 whatever percentage we end up with on all 

12 units on one side of the unit. 

13 Because pass-through units are 

14 usually never glass in glass. That just 

15 doesn't happen. But yet they're still every 

16 bit as transparent and the heat loss issues 

17 exist off the glass doors as they do off the 

18 others.

19 You also have a second set of 

20 issues on half doors quite often which is the

21 top half of a set of doors is glass and the 

22 bottom half is solid. And those can be 
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1 problematic if we start classifying 

2 everything into 75 or more glass rather than 

3 50 percent. 

4

5 MS. WIDDER: So, just to clarify, 

6 you think 50 percent would be a better number

7 here?

8 MR. HON: It depends on what --

9 number 1 is 50 percent on pass-through units 

10 is -- even 50 percent you probably have to 

11 drop to 45 because your technical definition 

12 was the frame around the door making it not -

13 - you're actually losing part of it. So 

14 about 45 percent on pass-throughs. And if 

15 you have half and half doors, half glass, 

16 half solid, how do you define that? That's 

17 open for the Department to figure out what 

18 they want to do there. Because there's ratio

19 differences there.

20 MS. WIDDER: Right. So the one 

21 issue that -- and I understand the difference

22 in stringency of standards. But I would also
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1 encourage everyone here and those on the 

2 webinar to think about in submission of their

3 comments is the application of the standards.

4 So for those cases you're 

5 describing, Charlie, their standard is still 

6 based on total display area. And as that 

7 total display area, for example, is 45 

8 percent of the doors that's also going to 

9 have an impact on the standard they have to 

10 meet.

11 MR. HON: You have a problem 

12 there because if you're talking self13 contained equipment it has nothing to do with

14 total display area. It's all internal 

15 volume.

16 MS. WIDDER: For self-contained. 

17 Yes.

18 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman 

19 from National. Agree with Charlie on both 

20 points. And again, as we're designing, if 

21 you're designing like Charlie's example the 

22 door that's got -- I'll say most units, 
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1 probably 50/50 is the cutoff when you design 

2 or you'll upsize the refrigeration system 

3 with the -- type of the system. You're 

4 reflecting where you would design that 

5 product at, if it's got glass doors in the 

6 front or solid on the back, where a lot of 

7 units if it's got a glass on one door, the 

8 right's glass and the other's left, about 

9 that 50 percent is where you're going to cut 

10 off and say you need to upsize that unit if 

11 it needs to be done. So I think 50/50, 

12 somewhere in there.

13 Going on with that I think 

14 Charlie's point about the percent, the way 

15 the definition is with the surface area of 

16 the door. I don't know what better 

17 definition would be and I'd think about that.

18

19 But it's somewhere where you can 

20 account for 50 percent of the doors excluding

21 the frame because one guy could have a wider 

22 frame. Then you get into what your area and
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1 what the definition of a glass door versus a 

2 solid door is. And it may be better to go in

3 that direction rather than talking about the 

4 specific area of the door, 50 percent of the 

5 doors are -- 50 percent of the area of doors 

6 are glass or solid. So, I'll think about 

7 that.

8 But I think trying to get away 

9 from considering the border of the door non10 transparent which the way this is written it 

11 would needs to be done. And I agree again 

12 that a 50/50 split, somewhere in that area, 

13 would be more applicable with how products 

14 are designed.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

16 Additional comments here? Charlie?

17 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. One thing 

18 we may want to add into the definition, let 

19 the Department just look at it is there is a 

20 difference between the size of a door and the

21 size of a door opening. 

22 A door opening is usually much 
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1 smaller than the door itself because you have

2 your gasket material and everything else 

3 around it to keep it. So we may want to look

4 at that very carefully and possibly consider 

5 ratio using the door opening size rather than

6 the door frame size. Because the front 

7 surface of the door could be very, very large

8 with a 3- or 4-inch frame around it for 

9 support reasons. But it really doesn't do 

10 you any good because the door opening on the 

11 actual case itself may be substantially 

12 smaller.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

14 MS. WIDDER: Thank you for those 

15 comments.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Anything else 

17 here? Nothing additional.

18 MS. WIDDER: Okay. This is sort 

19 of changing gears a little bit from the 

20 closed transparent versus solid definitions. 

21 But another area that the 

22 Department believes needs clarification in 
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1 their definitions and scope of commercial 

2 refrigeration equipment is the application of

3 standards for hybrid equipment versus non4 hybrid commercial refrigerator-freezers.

5 DOE's regulations obviously 

6 currently cover commercial hybrid 

7 refrigerators, freezers and refrigerator8 freezers and non-hybrid commercial 

9 refrigerators, freezers and refrigerator10 freezers.

11 There appears to be some 

12 confusion regarding the differentiation of 

13 hybrid from non-hybrid equipment. And to 

14 clarify this the Department is proposing 

15 changing the definition of commercial hybrid 

16 refrigerator, freezer, refrigerator-freezer 

17 which is currently defined at 10 CFR 431.62 

18 and breaking it into two definitions, a 

19 commercial hybrid definition to just specify 

20 what is commercial equipment and then 

21 explicitly defining refrigerator, freezer and

22 refrigerator-freezer. And I've got a slide 
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1 that sort of clarifies all this. 

2 First we're going to talk about 

3 the definitions and then there will be a 

4 slide that sort of hopefully helps out all 

5 these confused looks in the room. 

6 So, the definitions that the 

7 Department is proposing in addition to 

8 removing the current definition of commercial

9 hybrid refrigerator, freezer or refrigerator10 freezer are "commercial hybrid" means a unit 

11 of commercial refrigeration equipment 

12 consisting of two or more refrigerated 

13 compartments that are in two or more 

14 different equipment families as defined at 10

15 CFR 431.66 which is where all those 

16 standards, the standard table is, and which 

17 is sold as a single unit. So that would be 

18 two compartments in the same piece of CRE 

19 that are from different equipment families.

20 A commercial refrigerator-freezer 

21 non-hybrid is a unit of commercial 

22 refrigeration equipment consisting of two or 
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1 more refrigerated compartments where at least

2 one refrigerated component is capable of 

3 operating at or above 32 degrees Fahrenheit, 

4 meaning meeting the definition of 

5 refrigerator, and another component is 

6 capable of operating below 32 degrees 

7 Fahrenheit, meeting the definition of 

8 freezer.

9 So, to bring all these together 

10 we've got examples. On the very left-hand 

11 side we have a commercial refrigerator12 freezer that meets the new definition of 

13 commercial refrigerator-freezer that the 

14 Department is proposing. 

15 You can see it's one unit. It 

16 has two transparent doors so it's in the same

17 equipment family, vertical closed 

18 transparent. One component is at zero 

19 degrees Fahrenheit and one is at 38 degrees 

20 Fahrenheit. Or it could be slightly 

21 different temperatures but one meets the 

22 freezer temperature range and one meets the 
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1 refrigerator temperature range. But it does 

2 not meet the hybrid definition because 

3 they're both vertical closed transparent.

4 Commercial hybrid refrigerator is 

5 a unit where both of the components are the 

6 same temperature class, but are in different 

7 equipment families. So in this example the 

8 one on the left is glass. It's a vertical 

9 closed transparent refrigerator. 

10 And the one on the right that's 

11 blue is -- a different color blue is meant to

12 indicate a solid door. It's vertical closed 

13 solid in this example. So two equipment 

14 families, vertical closed transparent and 

15 vertical closed solid, but the same 

16 temperature classes. So that would meet the 

17 definition of commercial hybrid refrigerator,

18 meeting the commercial hybrid definition and 

19 the refrigerator definition, but not the 

20 commercial refrigerator-freezer definition.

21 And on the right-hand side now we 

22 meet both commercial hybrid and commercial 
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1 refrigerator-freezer definitions. We have 

2 two different components. One which has a 

3 glass door and is at zero degrees Fahrenheit 

4 meets freezer definition, and one has a solid

5 door, vertical closed solid, and is at the 

6 refrigerator temperature. So it meets both 

7 the definition of commercial refrigerator8 freezer and commercial hybrid.

9 And hopefully that clears things 

10 up a little bit. We're going to establish 

11 all these definitions in the CFR and DOE 

12 requests comment on the clarity and 

13 sufficiency of these definitions for 

14 commercial hybrid and commercial 

15 refrigerator-freezer.

16 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 

17 Manufacturing. Your definition of a model 

18 with two components, middle section there, 

19 two components greater than 32 degrees. 

20 Looks like one has a solid door, one has a 

21 glass door. How do you define two 

22 components?
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1 MS. WIDDER: They would be -- the 

2 two refrigerated spaces would be physically 

3 separated. Not necessarily thermally 

4 isolated, but physically separated. So 

5 they're -- where there's a black line there 

6 would be a solid wall separating the 

7 refrigerated compartments. Perhaps that's 

8 not common.

9 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. More 

10 common is -- this is an unusual circumstance.

11 I'm still confused by this because why can't

12 -- there's also no discussion up there of 

13 freezer-freezer.

14 MS. WIDDER: Well, freezer15 freezer would apply same as this center 

16 column except for they would both be zero 

17 degrees. But physically separated. 

18 If they're not physically 

19 separated -- maybe this will help. If 

20 they're not physically separated compartments

21 they -- both doors which are a different type

22 open to the same compartment. This is just a
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1 commercial refrigerator and you would apply 

2 the definitions of transparent door -- closed

3 transparent and closed solid and transparency

4 that we've proposed previously to determine 

5 its equipment classification. So in our 

6 current definition if this doesn't have any 

7 other doors this would be a transparent --

8 this would be a solid unit.

9 MR. HON: I am totally confused. 

10 I'm sorry.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: This, the middle 

12 example, Charlie, that's not something you 

13 see in practice? 

14 MR. HON: There are -- there are 

15 becoming popular dual temps but there's 

16 really -- the most common use of this is wine

17 coolers where you have half the compartment's

18 for white wine and half for red wine. And 

19 there's usually about a 10 degree difference 

20 in storage temperatures. But they would 

21 definitely be above the 32 degree Fahrenheit 

22 rule. But they do not necessarily have a 
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1 solid separator between the two, but more of 

2 a solid shelf between the two so that you 

3 limit the air flow crossover. That's what 

4 I'm concerned about.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Solid shelf. It's 

6 not a vertical?

7 MR. HON: Well, you can -- how do 

8 you define it? It doesn't say they're 

9 vertically separated on any of the 

10 definitions above.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. I see, 

12 right.

13 MR. HON: Horizontal separation 

14 would happen more commonly. And that's what 

15 I'm looking at here is that there's a 

16 possibility because it's not defined as a 

17 vertical separation. 

18 And in the item up there it's 

19 greater than 32 degrees which may or may not 

20 be the case. But defining a separation. 

21 Because most shelves in commercial 

22 refrigeration are porous, whether they be 
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1 wire shelf racking or different things, but 

2 not all of them are. And one of the ways you

3 can separate and differentiate temperature 

4 gaps is by having a solid shelf.

5 MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson, 

6 Hussmann. Sarah, I think that the 

7 definitions that you put forth are relatively

8 clear.

9 One thing that's not clear to us 

10 is how would DOE handle a piece of hybrid 

11 equipment? Let's just say it's a hybrid 

12 refrigerator that contains at least one 

13 compartment that's not covered by the DOE 

14 test procedure. 

15 So, for example, I have half of a 

16 cabinet that's a service over counter and 

17 half of that same cabinet, it's a complete 

18 unit, is a salad bar. And keep in mind that 

19 this could be a self-contained cabinet with 

20 one unit.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good question. 
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1 It meets the definitions, let's put it that 

2 way.

3 So I'm going to go with my 

4 preliminary off-the-cuff answer. We will 

5 officially I guess think about this a little 

6 more.

7 My initial response would be if 

8 it meets the definition, which that would, it

9 would be subject to our test procedure 

10 provisions and our standards for the service 

11 over the counter. 

12 Now, that being said, if there's 

13 an issue because part of it's not like the 

14 salad table or the buffet table or whatever 

15 is not covered. So let's say you believe 

16 that the measurements coming out of the test 

17 procedure would be representative, you need 

18 to get a waiver. Does that make sense? 

19 So in other words, if we're 

20 making you account for the entire 

21 refrigeration system but you believe that's 

22 not representative of its use because only 
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1 part of it is covered you need to apply for a

2 waiver and you need to explain why and how 

3 you would do it. That's my best off-the-cuff

4 answer.

5 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, I understand. 

6 So, if it were a remote refrigerator and you

7 could separate the two circuits --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would be 

9 easier.

10 MR. ANDERSON: -- so to say we 

11 would assume that the service over counter 

12 portion would be tested, and that energy 

13 counted, and the other portion would kind of 

14 be --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would say don't 

16 assume anything. If it specifically doesn't 

17 tell you to do that in the test procedure, 

18 come to us and get that.

19 MR. ANDERSON: Okay, thank you.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Jeff.

21 MR. BAUMAN: I have confusion I 

22 guess similar to Charlie's. And to me what I
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1 think may be missing here is whether a unit 

2 has one refrigeration system, one cooling 

3 system and it could share two separate 

4 cooling, two evaporator coils, or whether 

5 it's sharing air between the two spaces. 

6 Because there's some units that could run, 

7 like Charlie mentioned the wine coolers that 

8 will run at a little bit different 

9 temperatures and they'll share air between 

10 the two compartments. They have one 

11 evaporator. My interpretation of what I'm 

12 reading here is that type of thing would be 

13 more of a hybrid. If you have a unit 

14 that's -- again, we build commercial 

15 refrigerator -- refrigerator refrigerators 

16 that are two temperatures but they're 

17 developed just like a dual temp and they have

18 two refrigeration systems, insulated walls 

19 between the two. 

20 So to me that would be more 

21 consideration for the definition is whether 

22 they have a shared refrigeration system or 
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1 two separate systems.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: We have two 

4 questions that are coming from participants 

5 on the web. Ron Shebik asks “For hybrids, do

6 they have to share the same refrigeration 

7 system or unique systems?”

8 MS. WIDDER: As the definitions 

9 are currently proposed, no, they don't need -

10 - it can be either. These definitions apply 

11 whether there are separate refrigeration 

12 systems or the same refrigeration system. 

13 We just received comments on 

14 perhaps considering that differentiation in 

15 addition to the proposed definitions here.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And Joe 

17 Sanders writes “The middle example is 

18 currently purchased by McDonald's.” No 

19 physical separation exists between the 

20 interiors except for a wire shelf. 

21 MS. WIDDER: I wouldn't -- not 

22 having physically seen the unit.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's a 

2 refrigerator.

3 MS. WIDDER: Right. I would not 

4 think that it would be a hybrid refrigerator 

5 since they share the same refrigerated 

6 compartment and they're not physically 

7 separated. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: And they're the 

9 same temperature.

10 MS. WIDDER: And they're the same 

11 temperature. So they would -- they would 

12 actually not be on this slide. They would be

13 a commercial refrigerator. 

14 But I've not seen the wire shelf 

15 so I'm just going to assume.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let me just read 

17 this one because it's going to require some 

18 follow-up.

19 So Joe also asked if DOE could 

20 publish the formula used to calculate maximum

21 daily energy consumption for each example. 

22 Okay, but I'm not exactly sure 
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1 what you're asking so I prefer that we just 

2 follow up offline. I mean, I'm happy to give

3 you whatever additional information that we 

4 can to help clarify this, but I can't answer 

5 the question because I don't quite understand

6 it. 

7 So I'm going to move to Charlie. 

8 But Joe, we can follow up separately. You 

9 know how to reach me.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie.

11 MR. HON: Well, I think that the 

12 -- I think the middle classification would be

13 more clear if people looked at it.

14 Because if you take a service 

15 over counter unit, quite often they have a 

16 lower level refrigeration which would be 

17 closed door type unit down below them. And 

18 they're all operating at the same conditions,

19 but quite often a butcher shop doesn't want 

20 to put all of his meat out in the same 

21 conditions under the lights. So he puts one 

22 piece of meat out and then once it's sliced 
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1 up he'll go and pull another piece from down 

2 below. And I'm assuming that's basically 

3 what the concept of a commercial hybrid is 

4 about.

5 MS. WIDDER: Correct. That's a 

6 good example.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff?

8 MR. BAUMAN: And there are some 

9 refrigerators that are built with -- two-door

10 units with air flow down the middle and it's 

11 got panels with louvers or openings in it to 

12 distribute air to both sides. 

13 Those have never been as far as I 

14 know considered as -- I've never considered 

15 that a hybrid. I don't know anybody -- maybe

16 other people. But it's just a single 

17 temperature. 

18 Both have doors but there's 

19 panels in the middle because for air flow 

20 reasons, for customer reasons or whatever 

21 that's how you want the air flow going. But 

22 that would be considered a hybrid? It's just
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1 a single temperature.

2 MS. WIDDER: If it's physically 

3 separated with a wall which is what I'm 

4 understanding, yes, that would be a hybrid 

5 unit.

6 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. We'll have a 

7 lot of comment about that.

8 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: There may be a 

10 better way to do this, and it may be that it 

11 needs to be thermally isolated components or 

12 something -- maybe that's where you were 

13 drawing your line. So, think about that in 

14 your comments. It doesn't have to be this 

15 way. 

16 We get a lot of questions about 

17 this generally. So we're trying to come up 

18 with a way to address them that provides 

19 guidance to everyone.

20 I can tell you I probably get 

21 several a week alone just on hybrids. And 

22 especially if you guys were to look -- I 
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1 don't know how many of you have tried to look

2 online, but if you look at the hybrid 

3 templates for certification right now that 

4 are online, just creating those was a very 

5 difficult task, let alone trying to use them.

6 So I can understand where you're coming 

7 from.

8 So what we're trying to do is 

9 simplify this. We have standards on the 

10 books for hybrid. It's very clear how you 

11 calculate those. It's just a matter of 

12 people are saying, well, I can't tell if my 

13 unit's a hybrid. 

14 How do I tell that? So, where 

15 should DOE draw the line? Should it be a 

16 thermally isolated component -- or 

17 compartment. I'm sorry, not component, 

18 compartment. 

19 Or if it's not and it's just a 

20 wall and you do have some sharing which is 

21 typical of residential, you know, is that 

22 something that you consider one compartment, 
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1 a single compartment? Or what if you have 

2 some sharing but they're at different 

3 temperatures? What do you do? So, that's 

4 where we're going.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Steven.

6 MR. KING: Yes, Steve King with 

7 Royston LLC. Back to the Hussmann comment. 

8 It's basically like in a salad 

9 bar situation. It's a percentage ratio how 

10 much would be salad bar, then how much would 

11 be basically considered refrigerated space.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I get that 

13 part. That's what you do today. That's not 

14 in our regs. It is for the determination of 

15 which standard applies. It's not necessarily

16 in our regs for determining volumes and other

17 things that you need. 

18 So that's where we're going here. 

19 We're trying to figure out what do you guys 

20 do today to determine. And I'm not sure you 

21 all do it the same way based on the questions

22 I've gotten.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Neshan.

2 MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 

3 Store Fixtures. In the middle configuration 

4 you put that they have to be from two -- from

5 different equipment families.

6 MS. WIDDER: Correct.

7 MR. NESHAN: Is that a 

8 requirement, or they can be same family?

9 MS. WIDDER: In order to be a 

10 commercial hybrid unit they have to be from 

11 different equipment families. Two 

12 compartments from different equipment 

13 families.

14 If they're not from different 

15 equipment families -- so, for example, in the

16 center example if both of those were clear 

17 doors it would just be a commercial 

18 refrigerator. 

19 MR. NESHAN: Except, you know, 

20 for example, for a -- whether it's a closed 

21 door or open display case there are certain 

22 temperature requirements, 38 plus or minus 2.
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1 And then we have the lowest operating 

2 temperature equipment. They might be exactly

3 the same type of equipment, but temperature 

4 requirements are different. So that would 

5 not be considered hybrid?

6 MS. WIDDER: No, because those 

7 are subject to the same -- they're not 

8 separate equipment families. Right? So, 

9 that would be more like our example over here

10 on the right.

11 MR. NESHAN: Hold on, hold on. 

12 What do you mean they are not the same? 

13 Physically they are not but temperature-wise 

14 they're different.

15 MS. WIDDER: Yes, but temperature 

16 does not differentiate equipment families. 

17 So --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: You've got to use 

19 the microphone. We want this on the record. 

20 Please say your name.

21 MR. SUHARNO: Anwar Suharno from 

22 Royston LLC. If you have a dual temp unit on
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1 a single compartment you can switch back and 

2 forth between low temp and medium temp. You 

3 will have different --

4 MS. WIDDER: Yes, we're going to 

5 get to that one too.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is not a 

7 hybrid. I can tell you that one.

8 MS. WIDDER: Those are not 

9 hybrids. But those are also -- so, like our 

10 example on the very left, that it's two 

11 compartments, both with glass doors that have

12 different temperatures, that's not a hybrid 

13 unit. 

14 The configuration of doors on the 

15 geometry of the unit is what determines 

16 equipment families. If you look at those --

17 I wish I had a slide of this. There's a 

18 table in the CFR where you look up standards.

19 It's in 431.66 and there's column headings. 

20 And one of the headings is equipment family.

21 And you'll -- things like 

22 vertical closed transparent, semi-vertical 
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1 closed transparent, solid, open. Those are 

2 the terms that are in that row and so those 

3 are the things, whether it's transparent, 

4 solid, or open. And it's geometry, 

5 horizontal, semi-vertical, vertical are the 

6 things that determine equipment families.

7 The temperatures are a separate 

8 differentiator, but they're not used to 

9 determine whether or not it's a hybrid.

10 MR. NESHAN: Neshan again here, 

11 Southern Store Fixtures. But when you're 

12 testing the equipment one of the provisions 

13 of it is that we can test the case to lowest 

14 temperature that that case can operate at.

15 MS. WIDDER: Right, so --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, I disagree. 

17 So, if you cannot operate at the rating 

18 temperature required then you are required to

19 test at the lowest temperature it's capable 

20 of operating only if you cannot meet the 

21 temperature in the regs. So, you just don't 

22 get to pick, you have to prove that you 
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1 cannot meet the rating temperatures in the 

2 reg, the integrated average temperatures in 

3 the regs. And if you cannot then it goes to 

4 the lowest.

5 MR. NESHAN: Correct. No, I 

6 understand that.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

8 MR. NESHAN: But we have a floor 

9 display case. I will not be able to test 

10 that at 38 degrees. I will be testing it at 

11 50 degrees. You see?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: If that's the 

13 lowest it ever goes.

14 MR. NESHAN: Correct. But then, 

15 however, they are from the same product 

16 family. But --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're okay.

18 MR. NESHAN: -- according to this 

19 you are telling me that I cannot.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no, it's 

21 not.

22 MS. WIDDER: No, you can still 
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1 rate that.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's talk 

3 offline. Because that's not a hybrid. 

4 You're not talking about a hybrid here.

5 MS. WIDDER: A lowest application 

6 product temperature case --

7 MR. NESHAN: No, I understand. 

8 But they're combined in the same frame. 

9 There are two pieces.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get it. I get 

11 it. We can go from there.

12 MS. WIDDER: So we welcome 

13 comments on that. For that case you would 

14 test -- okay, we'll just keep going.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the first 

16 example, it's not the second. It's two 

17 different rating temperatures. It's not a 

18 hybrid. So you're going with --

19 MS. WIDDER: You'd go 38 and 50.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, you're going 

21 a side that's at one rating temperature and a

22 side that's at 50. That's the difference 
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1 there.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: The one on the 

3 left.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it's his --

5 it's looking at it -- it depends. 

6 MS. WIDDER: On the left but 

7 different numbers.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

9 MS. WIDDER: Okay? 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So it allows you 

11 to do what you're describing, it's just not 

12 hybrid that allows you to do what you're 

13 describing. Okay?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay? Additional 

15 thoughts, comments here. This is 

16 complicated. I think we're getting --

17 there's going to be more. Let's keep going.

18 MS. WIDDER: Yes, okay. 

19 Similarly around temperatures there are three

20 different temperatures that are referenced in

21 the DOE test procedure and application of 

22 standards. The rating temperature which we 
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1 were just discussing, the operating 

2 temperature of the equipment, and the 

3 integrated average temperature which is the 

4 temperature measured during the test 

5 procedure. 

6 DOE has received inquiries from 

7 interested parties about the relationship of 

8 these temperatures and how to determine 

9 equipment classification versus how the 

10 equipment is tested. 

11 So DOE proposes to establish new 

12 definitions for rating temperature and

13 operating temperature in the regulations to 

14 help clarify the application of these terms 

15 and what these terms mean.

16 The rating temperature is in the 

17 standards table at 431.66(d)(1). That's the 

18 table of standards. It describes the 

19 integrated average temperature at which a 

20 model of commercial refrigeration equipment 

21 should be evaluated in accordance with the 

22 DOE test procedure unless that piece of 
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1 equipment is rated in accordance with the 

2 lowest application product temperature 

3 provision which is only applicable if it 

4 can't meet the rating temperature for that 

5 equipment class. So that's the rating 

6 temperature.

7 The operating temperature is also 

8 present in the same table. And it refers to 

9 the range of integrated average temperatures 

10 at which the unit of commercial refrigeration

11 equipment is capable of operating. 

12 So for refrigerators that's 

13 greater than or equal to 32 degrees, or I 

14 forget where the equal to is. For freezers 

15 it's less than 32 degrees and for ice cream 

16 freezers that's established in the 

17 definition.

18 And then the integrated average 

19 temperature is in the test procedure, 431.64,

20 is the average refrigerated compartment 

21 temperature determined in accordance with the

22 DOE test procedure for commercial 
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1 refrigeration equipment. And that's defined

2 in the regulations currently as the average 

3 of all test package temperature measurements 

4 taken over the course of the test.

5 So, to clarify this, DOE is 

6 proposing these two new definitions on the 

7 left in the box, the integrated -- the rating

8 temperature means the integrated average 

9 temperature a unit must maintain during 

10 testing. And the operating temperature is 

11 the temperature range of -- the range of 

12 integrated average temperatures at which a 

13 commercial refrigeration unit is capable of 

14 operating.

15 Similarly, DOE is proposing new 

16 definitions for the equipment we've been 

17 discussing, commercial refrigerators, 

18 commercial freezers and commercial 

19 refrigerator-freezers that similar to the 

20 definition for ice cream freezer incorporate 

21 these operating temperature conditions into 

22 the definition. So it's more clear. 
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1 A commercial refrigerator 

2 operates at greater than 32 degrees 

3 Fahrenheit. And the definition proposed is a

4 unit of commercial refrigeration equipment in

5 which all refrigerated compartments in the 

6 unit are capable of operating at or above 32 

7 degrees Fahrenheit. 

8 A commercial freezer, the 

9 operating temperature established in the 

10 standards is less than 32 degrees Fahrenheit.

11 A unit of commercial 

12 refrigeration equipment in which all 

13 refrigerated compartments in the unit are 

14 capable of operating below 32 degrees 

15 Fahrenheit is the proposed definition. 

16 And a commercial refrigerator17 freezer is a unit that has one compartment 

18 that is capable of operating at or above 32 

19 degrees Fahrenheit and one compartment that 

20 is capable of operating less than 32 degrees 

21 Fahrenheit as we previously defined. 

22 And then the ice cream freezer 
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1 definition is the existing definition that's 

2 in the regs right now.

3 This very last slide I think 

4 brings up the type of equipment that was 

5 referenced previously. Some models feature 

6 operating temperature ranges that cause the 

7 model to span multiple equipment classes. Do

8 you want to comment first? Sure.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

10 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. Am I 

11 mistaken? I thought it was -15. On this 

12 temperature ice cream freezer. Okay, thank 

13 you. 

14 MS. WIDDER: That's not proposed 

15 to change, so if it was -15 then that was an 

16 error.

17 MR. HON: Okay. I just wanted to 

18 clarify because I'm going --

19 MS. WIDDER: An editorial error.

20 MR. HON: Okay, just wanted to 

21 verify.

22 MS. WIDDER: I apologize for 
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1 that.

2 MR. HON: No problem.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: The rating 

4 temperature is -15.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yes, I think the 

6 rating temperature is -15 but the definition 

7 is -5.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's correct.

9 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

10 MR. HON: Why would you have it 

11 when you couldn't reach the definition? 

12 Wouldn't it just be a freezer?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's anything 

14 less than -5. So it goes down.

15 MS. WIDDER: So a freezer -- I'll 

16 just read the definition for everyone. A 

17 commercial freezer that is designed to 

18 operate at or below -5 degrees Fahrenheit, 

19 and that the manufacturer designs, markets 

20 and intends for storing, displaying, or 

21 dispensing of ice cream is an ice cream 

22 freezer and it's rated at -15 degrees 
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1 Fahrenheit. Does that help clarify?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, that's the 

3 difference. The slide's accurate, it's just 

4 that it's -- anything under -5 is considered 

5 an ice cream freezer if it's got the other 

6 intended for ice cream. It's just you have 

7 to test it at -15. If you can't get down to 

8 -15 that's when the LAPT things kick in.

9 MS. WIDDER: Right.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is why we 

11 have questions on rating temperatures and 

12 integrated average temperatures, by the way.

13 MS. WIDDER: And hopefully these 

14 definitions help clarify. If they don't, 

15 please --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So, thank you, 

17 Ashley. We have a question from Charity 

18 Njau. Pardon me if I butchered your name. 

19 “Does this mean that commercial wine cellars 

20 are covered products?”

21 MS. WIDDER: Commercial wine 

22 cellars?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Chillers.

2 MS. WIDDER: Chillers. A 

3 commercial --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Cellars.

6 MS. WIDDER: If it's a unit, if 

7 it meets the definition of commercial 

8 refrigeration equipment as defined and meets 

9 the definition of commercial refrigerator 

10 defined here then yes.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, what this is 

12 trying to show you is that --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, sorry. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: What this is 

17 trying to show you is just because it can't 

18 be tested at the rating temperature doesn't 

19 mean it's not covered and subject to DOE's 

20 test procedures and standards.

21 So what we're trying to make 

22 clear here is that the definitions are based
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1 on operating temperature, and the operating 

2 temperature, there's large ranges. 

3 And so just because something 

4 operates, for a wine chiller it may be above 

5 32 and maybe it can't operate at the rating 

6 temperatures prescribed in the test. Well, 

7 you still have to test it. You have to test 

8 it at the lowest temperature it's capable of 

9 operating. You just aren't excluded.

10 And that's what we're trying to 

11 make clear with this. There's a difference 

12 between determining scope of coverage. It 

13 meets the definition, period. And something 

14 that can't be tested because it's not capable

15 of reaching that rating temperature. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Bruce.

17 MR. HIERLMEIER: In remote 

18 equipment how cold the unit can get often 

19 depends on how large the condensing unit 

20 system is. 

21 So, when we test in our lab we 

22 can put a small condensing unit system on it 
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1 for that test and not be able to get very 

2 cold. You could go to a different test 

3 laboratory that has a system that's designed 

4 to run 10 or 15 cases at one time and they 

5 can get very cold. 

6 So there's an inconsistency in a 

7 remote system as to how cold the unit can get

8 because it's actually based on the test 

9 equipment that can be supplied at any given 

10 point in time. It's not like a self11 contained that has a condensing unit in it. 

12 You turn it down, the condensing unit runs 

13 flat out and it's finished.

14 So, how does DOE plan to make 

15 that a uniform test?

16 MS. WIDDER: There are provisions 

17 in the lowest application product temperature

18 definition and test procedure that establish 

19 specific requirements for remote cases that I

20 am not remembering off the top of my head but

21 have to do with setting the suction 

22 temperature on the remote case at a 
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1 temperature that allows you to maintain the 

2 intended rating temperature, the lowest 

3 application temperature for that equipment. 

4 But I would encourage you to 

5 review that and to the extent that it's not 

6 sufficient please submit comments.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Collin, do you 

8 want to add in here? No? Okay. Nick.

9 MR. SCHRINER: On the integrated 

10 average temperature, I don't know if you're 

11 familiar, above 32 degrees by NSF-7 you have 

12 to be able to maintain a temperature below 41

13 degrees.

14 On the integrated average, say 

15 you have to turn down your evaporator to 

16 maintain this below 41 degrees by NSF-7 

17 standards. Does DOE care if our integrated 

18 average is below the specified 38 degrees if 

19 we can get an average of 36 to maintain? Or 

20 is it -- because usually we do that test at 

21 once.

22 MS. WIDDER: So that's also -- in 
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1 the previous, the 2012 test procedure final 

2 rule in addition to the lowest application 

3 product temperature DOE established 

4 provisions that equipment tested in 

5 accordance with NSF-7 at lower test --

6 internal refrigerated temperatures could be 

7 submitted for compliance with DOE's energy 

8 conservation standards. However, you're 

9 still subject to the same standard as if that

10 equipment was rated at the prescribed rating 

11 temperature.

12 MR. SCHRINER: So as long as we 

13 meet the 38 or below --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: In the future.

15 MS. WIDDER: In the future, not 

16 today.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: The key here is 

18 that we added those provisions to apply with 

19 amended standards. So, they do not apply 

20 today. So right now you're required to meet 

21 the rating temperature +/- 2 irrespective of 

22 NSF. 
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1 We did address this comment and 

2 going forward in the future, and what I mean 

3 future, it's going to be compliance with 

4 amended standards. We don't know the date 

5 yet. You guys know the NOPR still is out. 

6 So it is in the future some ways down the 

7 road.

8 MR. SCHRINER: So in other words 

9 we're going to have to perform two different 

10 tests. One day get our integrated average --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You could 

12 petition for a waiver to test at a lower 

13 temperature and explain why. You could do it

14 that way. Right now that's what our regs 

15 require, yes.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Anything 

17 additional?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: You could submit 

19 comments to this NOPR that we should consider

20 modifying that too, or at least consider it, 

21 and see if DOE -- and why we should allow it 

22 now, the use of it now. I'm just telling you
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1 what our regs are right now so it's clear.

2 MR. SCHRINER: I'm confused I 

3 guess. What does NSF-7 really matter to DOE 

4 as long as their integrated average is 38 

5 degrees? Can we just run a test to meet DOE 

6 standards and to meet NSF standards?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ideally, yes. 

8 And we've acknowledged that that should be 

9 the ideal scenario. And as long as the NSF 

10 standards are more conservative, so a lower 

11 temperature would give you a more 

12 conservative rating and that's what you 

13 choose to do. We don't require that but 

14 that's what you choose to do. I think that 

15 was our acknowledgment in the 2012 rule.

16 The problem was we did not adopt 

17 those requirements for now. So, when you 

18 submit comments if you believe we should 

19 adopt those requirements for implementation 

20 now please explain why.

21 MR. SCHRINER: Thank you.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Sarah, did 
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1 you finish presentation on 36?

2 MS. WIDDER: No, I did not. We 

3 have to get there.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like you to do 

5 that.

6 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

8 MS. WIDDER: And this is the last 

9 slide. But it does relate to the definitions

10 of commercial refrigerator and commercial 

11 freezer that we just discussed.

12 DOE is aware that some models of 

13 commercial refrigeration equipment feature 

14 refrigeration systems or integrated average 

15 temperatures, operating temperatures that 

16 span the range of multiple equipment classes 

17 as we've just defined them.

18 For example, a CRE model with an 

19 operating temperature range of 15 degrees to 

20 36 degrees meets the definition of both a 

21 commercial refrigerator and a commercial 

22 freezer.
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1 This is a hypothetical case. I 

2 don't know that it actually exists.

3 DOE proposes that equipment 

4 capable of operating within multiple 

5 equipment classes would have to be tested and

6 certified as each of those equipment classes.

7 So this case would have to meet the 

8 requirements for a commercial refrigerator 

9 and a commercial freezer.

10 Now, because this case can only 

11 operate down to 15 degrees Fahrenheit the 

12 lowest application product temperature 

13 provision would be applicable for this case 

14 when rated as a freezer.

15 Now we request comment on our 

16 definitions. DOE requests comment on the 

17 definitions for operating temperature and 

18 rating temperature. We previously discussed 

19 the definitions for commercial refrigerator 

20 and commercial freezer, and the application 

21 of those definitions to variable temperature 

22 equipment.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So we'd like to 

2 hear comment on 34, 35 and 36. And let's do 

3 that now. And then shortly we're going to

4 take a break. Any additional comments here? 

5 These are new proposed 

6 definitions. It would be very helpful for 

7 the Department to receive some preliminary 

8 feedback on these if you can offer it here. 

9 Ashley?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, Ron on the 

11 phone asked how do you differentiate without 

12 changing nomenclature. And I'm not sure I 

13 understand the question. Yes, let's unmute 

14 him.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Can he speak --

16 yes.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, really 

18 what this is saying is that if you have a 

19 model and it operates as a refrigerator and 

20 it operates as a freezer. 

21 So you design a model that you 

22 had such a wide operating range that it 
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1 essentially spans a refrigerator and a 

2 freezer. 

3 And the user basically is allowed 

4 to toggle between the two, whatever one they 

5 want to use depending on the application. 

6 We're saying you have to do both. 

7 You have to run the test as if it was a 

8 refrigerator, you have to run the test as if 

9 it was a freezer and you have to certify 

10 that. You have to be compliant with that.

11 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I 

12 am assuming this means only if -- some units 

13 can cross over but we don't intend them to 

14 and we don't market them that way. We would 

15 only market them, say, as a freezer, 

16 especially something like an ice storage 

17 cabinet which operates in the mid-twenties. 

18 That thing could be turned warm enough to 

19 where it would technically fall in the 

20 refrigeration category, but it never is 

21 marketed as that. It is exclusively marketed

22 for an ice case.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I will say 

2 you've got the intention correct. That was 

3 the intention.

4 Our operating temperatures are 

5 pretty distinct. They cut off. So if you 

6 believe we should provide additional 

7 clarification for the wiggle room you're 

8 welcome to submit comments. If that makes 

9 sense.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm noting that on 

11 34 there are two new definitions and on 35 

12 there are three.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ron, you're 

14 unmuted if you want to explain to me your 

15 question. If I didn't clarify.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: About 

17 nomenclature. We can't hear you if you've 

18 unmuted your phone.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right, well 

20 we can follow up later if it happens to come 

21 up. Or I can follow up offline if he has 

22 more.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Any thoughts on 

2 these definitions? This is my last prompt.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's do a break 

4 before we move into the next section.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, let's take a 

6 break. It's 10:35 almost. We're due for a 

7 break. I'm in no hurry to get out of here 

8 today. I know some of you might be --

9 (Laughter)

10 MR. BROOKMAN: -- might be facing 

11 weather though when you depart. So I'm 

12 thinking that we should try and press on and 

13 get this done before we break for lunch. Our

14 original end time is supposed to be 1 

15 o'clock-ish. 

16 So go and get coffee, get a piece 

17 of fruit, or a pastry, or something to 

18 sustain you through probably a 1 o'clock or 

19 so end time, okay? And let's go quickly to 

20 get coffee.

21 You know, you must wear a badge 

22 inside the building. The restrooms are on 
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1 both ends of the hall. Coffee's on the 

2 ground floor, down the elevator shaft to the 

3 ground floor and it's there to the left.

4 So good progress, really good 

5 progress, good commentary. We will resume at

6 10 until 11, 10 until 11.

7 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

8 went off the record at 10:34 a.m. and went 

9 back on the record at 10:54 a.m.)

10 MR. BROOKMAN: At my peril, at 

11 our mutual peril I want to -- since you had 

12 time to think about it and talk about it 

13 during the break any additional thoughts on 

14 slide 34 and 35? Particularly about the 

15 definitions. The comment so far on 

16 definitions has been very, very helpful. Any

17 additional thoughts on that before we move 

18 on?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we're 

20 good.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: You think we're 

22 good, okay. Okay, nothing additional then. 
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1 Yes, yes, Bruce.

2 MR. HIERLMEIER: The only thing I 

3 thought without reading the standard that in 

4 the past if you had a dual temperature unit 

5 you tested at the lowest temperature it could

6 obtain. And I don't know if this changes it 

7 and now you have to test also at the medium 

8 temperature because that will have an impact 

9 on the performance of the equipment.

10 Most equipment requires 

11 additional energy to reach low temperatures. 

12 Some of that energy is backed out 

13 automatically when a customer switches to a 

14 higher temperature level. Some of that 

15 energy is now -- like fan motors typically 

16 are two-speed due to the cost. 

17 So, that could minimize the 

18 utility of some of this equipment for some of

19 our customers. We don't sell a lot of them 

20 but the ones that do have them like dual 

21 temps.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay, thank 
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1 you. Okay, so we're going to move on --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I actually?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Ashley.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I ask a 

5 question about that though? Are you telling 

6 me then that because you have to test at the 

7 medium temperature as well? How would that 

8 impact the -- I mean, if you're already 

9 testing at the low temperature, the more 

10 consumptive temperature, and you have to test

11 at the medium temperature because it now is a

12 freezer and a refrigerator.

13 I understand that you may not

14 have been running the test before so if you 

15 told me that's additional tests, that's 

16 additional testing cost, I get that part. 

17 But why is it a utility issue 

18 unless you have to actually change the design

19 to meet the standards?

20 MR. HIERLMEIER: Well, changing 

21 the design to meet the standards will 

22 increase the cost to the customers.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does it not meet 

2 the standards now?

3 MR. HIERLMEIER: It potentially 

4 wouldn't meet it as a medium temp. It would 

5 meet it as a low temp at the lower one, but 

6 all the energy isn't necessarily backed out 

7 when it's run as a medium temp. All the door

8 heat isn't backed out --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And your position 

10 is you should be allowed to sell a 

11 refrigerator, a single unit that operates as 

12 a freezer and a refrigerator as long as it 

13 meets the standards in one configuration. Is

14 that your position?

15 MR. HIERLMEIER: Yes, the lowest 

16 temperature.

17 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr 

18 with NEEA. How about another option is that 

19 they make the refrigerator so that it can't 

20 operate. In other words, if they lock it out

21 in the hardware so it won't operate in those 

22 other modes then that would be fine.
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1 In other words, if they're not 

2 expecting to meet the standards and it's not 

3 going to be operated in that mode if it's 

4 locked out. That could be an option.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think they're 

6 offering it for sale specifically to be 

7 operated in that mode. And they're saying it

8 should only have to be tested and compliant 

9 with one of those options.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, you want to 

11 comment?

12 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I 

13 have a question. Is that because of 

14 marketing of the product at two temperatures?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you asking 

16 me? What do you mean?

17 MR. HON: Okay. If we would --

18 we have some equipment that it can drift 

19 over.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I get the 

21 drifting. I'm saying actually dual temp that

22 is meant to be a refrigerator and a freezer 
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1 and you just have like a toggle or something 

2 like that. 

3 It seems like I'm hearing that 

4 the position -- I didn't understand the 

5 utility argument. I only understand the 

6 utility argument if it's such that one of 

7 those positions isn't compliant and requires 

8 a redesign.

9 MR. HIERLMEIER: When it moves up 

10 to the medium temp it would require a 

11 redesign. You'd have to change more of the 

12 loads to use less energy at medium temp.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Bruce. 

14 Thank you. Did you wish to comment more, 

15 Louis?

16 MR. STARR: Well, it just -- it 

17 seems to me that if they're marketing to 

18 operate in multiple temperature ranges and 

19 multiple classes then it needs to meet the 

20 efficiency requirement of those cabinets if 

21 that's the specific marketing. That would 

22 seem like the logical thing to me.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: It needs to be 

2 compliant.

3 MR. STARR: Right.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: However many 

5 categories of product that you wish to play 

6 in.

7 MR. STARR: Correct.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes, Tim.

9 MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson, 

10 Hussmann. So, kind of further on that point.

11 Looking at the second bullet on slide 36 it 

12 says DOE proposes that equipment capable of 

13 operating within multiple equipment classes. 

14 Is a better word than "capable" "intended?"

15 My concern is that we certainly 

16 have low-temperature cabinets that are only 

17 ever intended to operate at low temperature. 

18 But certainly you could connect them to a 

19 remote condensing system and operate in an 

20 evaporating temperature that made the 

21 equipment medium temp. So it's capable of 

22 operating at medium temp, but that's not our 
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1 intent. It's not marketed that way.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: You're not 

3 shipping it that way.

4 MR. ANDERSON: It's a remote 

5 case. It's a component of a larger system.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: He doesn't know, 

7 yes. So I think that gets somewhat -- that's

8 a different point but it somewhat gets to my 

9 point that I made to Charlie earlier.

10 You know, the way we've defined 

11 it in here, those operating ranges are cut 

12 and dry. If it falls below it goes into this

13 dual -- if it falls below or above in 

14 capability it goes into that other bucket. 

15 So if there is additional 

16 language that you would like the Department 

17 to consider about marketing, intended 

18 operation, in addition to capability we would

19 need to understand how you draw the line, why

20 we should draw the line.

21 I mean, someone could also offer 

22 one -- I'll tell you the counter. Someone 
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1 could offer one and say, you know, it has a 

2 toggle button very clear that says -- I'm 

3 just making this up, by the way -- it says 

4 refrigerator on the left, it says freezer on 

5 the left. But oh, well, I didn't intend for 

6 it to ever be used as a refrigerator. So how

7 do we bridge that gap is what I'm asking.

8 I'm not saying you do that, I'm 

9 not saying anybody in the room would ever do 

10 that. I'm just saying that's the counter.

11 MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 

12 Store Fixtures. On dual temp cases, 

13 especially remote, not necessarily -- even if

14 it's a dual temp case, not necessarily the 

15 case would have a toggle switch.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm simplifying.

17 MR. NESHAN: Yes. It is at the 

18 discretion of the refrigeration equipment 

19 manufacturer to have the control or the 

20 switch at the rack or at the case. So if 

21 they have it at the rack the case 

22 manufacturer would have absolutely no idea if
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1 the case is going to be used for a medium 

2 temperature application or not.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron, we hope, is 

4 unmuted and he wants to speak. So Ron, 

5 hopefully you can get in here. Speak. We're

6 not hearing anything, Ron. Let's try it 

7 again in a little bit. We're hoping to hear 

8 from you. Let us know. Emily will let us 

9 know when you can get back in here.

10 Okay. I think we covered that 

11 sufficiently for right now. Let's go to 

12 Collin.

13 MR. WEBER: All right. Thanks, 

14 Doug. So right now we're going to move into 

15 talking about some additional clarifications 

16 to the test procedure. 

17 The first of these will be with 

18 respect to treatment of equipment features 

19 and accessories. And so what this stems from

20 is the summer 2013 reg neg sessions which 

21 most of you in this room were part of for 

22 CC&E of commercial HVAC refrigeration water 
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1 heating equipment and in which issues were 

2 raised by participants regarding treatment 

3 during the test procedure of specific 

4 equipment features, components and 

5 accessories which may be in place on certain 

6 basic models of CRE.

7 The following slides discuss some 

8 specific features and components and 

9 accessories, and present proposals on how 

10 these items should be treated under the test 

11 procedure. These are basically intended as 

12 proposed codifications of what was agreed 

13 upon through consensus vote during the reg 

14 neg process. 

15 So hopefully this should move 

16 fairly quickly and smoothly because most 

17 people have seen this before and voted in 

18 approval of it. So we're just going to go 

19 through these on a feature-by-feature basis.

20 The first of these features, 

21 customer display signs and lights. These are

22 additional signage, exterior, outside the 
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1 body of the refrigerated cabinet for the 

2 purpose of advertising the product. 

3 Optional, not integral to the cabinet and do 

4 not serve to illuminate product which is 

5 inside the body of the cabinet. So it's 

6 completely exogenous to the function.

7 The proposal from the reg neg was 

8 that supplemental lighting existing solely 

9 for purposes of advertising or drawing 

10 attention to the case and which is not 

11 integral to the case would not be operated 

12 during testing under the DOE test procedure. 

13 And so as an administrative note 

14 we don't have any comment boxes on all of 

15 these. If there are any comments, interject 

16 at any point.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that's the 

18 way to go. Comments here? No comments here.

19 MR. WEBER: All right. Second 

20 feature, condensate pan heaters and pumps. 

21 Many CRE types come with means of removing 

22 condensate, melt water. Some do it in a 
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1 completely static manner using wicking kits 

2 and that sort of thing. 

3 However, others come equipped 

4 with electric resistance heaters that 

5 vaporize the water and others come equipped 

6 with pumps which pump the melt water to an 

7 external drain similar to how a remote 

8 condensing case would be set.

9 The proposal that heaters and 

10 pumps would be installed and operational per 

11 ASHRAE 72 under the accessories section for 

12 the entirety of the test including 

13 stabilization of pull-down, steady state and 

14 performance testing period. 

15 It was agreed during the reg neg 

16 that clarification would be added that prior 

17 to the start of the stabilization period the 

18 condensate pan should be dry.

19 And then for the entire period of 

20 the test following the start of that official

21 stabilization period any condensate generated

22 will be allowed to accumulate reflecting 
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1 effectively field conditions unhindered. And

2 water would not be manually added or removed 

3 at any point during the test.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on this 

5 proposal? Yes.

6 MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce from Zero 

7 Zone. We have a number of customers that use

8 remote equipment in strip mall type 

9 applications. So the floors are not cut with

10 floor drains. They may be leasing the stores

11 and not want to spend it. They opt to use 

12 condensate pans to dissipate that heat. 

13 In the modeling that DOE did when 

14 they did self-contained equipment they 

15 modeled in condensate pans as part of that 

16 energy use. They did not model in condensate

17 pans as part of the energy use for remote 

18 equipment. 

19 So, in part now they've changed 

20 the rules. Self-contained get extra energy 

21 whereas remote cases don't get that energy 

22 use capability. 
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1 So it effectively eliminates the 

2 ability for that customer base to use a store

3 that does not have a floor drain, damaging 

4 the utility of our equipment in their 

5 application. So in the past those 

6 pans were shipped -- generally they're 

7 shipped loose. Customer may put them on top 

8 of the case, may put them someplace else, may

9 power them separately from a wall outlet. 

10 And now they won't have those options 

11 anymore.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why won't they 

13 have the option? You have to test it this 

14 way and it has to be compliant when tested 

15 this way.

16 MR. HIERLMEIER: Your modeling 

17 allowed for it in the self-contained. 

18 Included that energy level.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part.

20 MR. HIERLMEIER: It did not 

21 include the energy level in it. So your 

22 energy levels are set too stringent to allow 
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1 this to apply.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Tim?

4 MR. ANDERSON: I'd like to echo 

5 all of Bruce's comments. If this applies to 

6 remote cases it will preclude the use of 

7 condensate pans on any remote cases basically

8 because of the stringency of the levels.

9 It's also important to note that 

10 the volume of this application of condensate 

11 pans on remote cases, and I can only speak 

12 for Hussmann, is less than 1 percent. I 

13 mean, it's the exception, it's not the rule. 

14 But it will reduce the utility of the 

15 equipment for that -- for those customers.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to 

17 point out Hussmann participated in the 

18 negotiations.

19 MR. ANDERSON: And Ron feels very 

20 strongly. And if he could speak he would. 

21 Ron feels very strongly that the discussions 

22 in the working group were pertaining to self-
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1 contained cases.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe, Ron, we'll 

3 invite you again to unmute your phone and try

4 and speak. Not working. Emily says it's not

5 working. Sorry, Ron. Ron, if you want to 

6 write out some comments then Emily will --

7 questions or comments we'll read them into 

8 the meeting here. Do our best. Lauren?

9 MS. ZELINSKI: I just wanted to 

10 echo what both Hussmann and Bruce had said 

11 earlier. 

12 I would say from AHRI's 

13 perspective almost all of our manufacturers 

14 would agree that on remote cases including 

15 the condensate pan is an optional feature 

16 that very few people use. And so causing all

17 of those to be tested would not meet the 

18 setup of this unit.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis?

20 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr 

21 with NEEA. In these cases that you're 

22 talking about why wouldn't just a small pump 
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1 that would pump it over to some other 

2 drainage thing work in that application 

3 instead of using a pan heater?

4 MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson, 

5 Hussmann. Certainly a pump would be an 

6 option. These are customer requirements that

7 we're fulfilling.

8 MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce from Zero 

9 Zone. In some applications in these stores 

10 there's not an immediate drain available. 

11 You're in a store where there's no place to 

12 pump it off, or local health inspectors take 

13 a dim view of pumping condensate water a long

14 distance as well.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments 

16 here before we move on? We have a comment 

17 from Ron I think. 

18 Ron says “Cases tested at LAPT, 

19 now that LAPT is common terminology, do we 

20 still need to apply for a waiver when testing

21 this way?”

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the answer --
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1 the proposal would be that you do not. But 

2 the caveat there is until the final rule is 

3 effective you will. So, once the final rule 

4 is out and if DOE ends up adopting the LAPT 

5 provisions as proposed in this rule it gets 

6 rid of the waiver process for that, although 

7 until that happens, until the rule is 

8 effective you will still have to go through 

9 those procedures.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron continues. 

11 Cases that operate at two different rating 

12 temps, how will these be certified? 

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, if the --

14 it's going to depend on if they span multiple

15 operating temperatures. That's how we 

16 discussed it. So it's not about rating temps

17 so much as operating ranges such that they 

18 fall into refrigerator, freezer, or like ice 

19 cream freezer. And so that's how that goes.

20 If there are multiple rating 

21 temperatures then that's going to -- and 

22 they're multiple rating temperatures such 
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1 that the LAPT is a different number and it 

2 cannot be tested at a rating temperature, 

3 that's a different question. But still 

4 within the same operating temperature range. 

5 So, they're both refrigerators. 

6 One can only get down to 50, one can get down

7 to 40, neither can get down to the rating 

8 temperature. That's a different question. 

9 So I don't know if that's what he's asking.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: He continues. 

11 When speaking with Laura B. I understood that

12 you would need uniqueness in the nomenclature

13 for two different ratings? Testing at NSF 

14 temps, I thought this was already allowed in 

15 the regs. Condensate heaters --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hold on, go back 

17 to the one. So, I think I made clear the NSF

18 thing earlier. It's not in the current test 

19 procedure required today. It's in the test 

20 procedure that will be required in the 

21 future. So yes, DOE did address it but it's 

22 not required today. 
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1 My comment still stands. If you 

2 feel that it should be required today please 

3 explain, et cetera. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Does that address 

5 two different ratings? Okay. And then test 

6 standard NSF temps. 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That one I just 

8 addressed.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought this was 

10 already allowed in the regs. Condensate 

11 heaters, the test method for self-contained 

12 only, this is not spelled out.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: The negotiations, 

14 I will say that slide said nothing about 

15 self-contained versus remote. There's 

16 nothing in the slide, there was nothing on 

17 the vote. It's all documented. 

18 Now, you may submit your comments 

19 but there was nothing there. There are 

20 plenty of people in the room that were there.

21 You may have had different intention but 

22 there is nothing on the slide there.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And finally from 

2 Ron, “In the working group I mentioned that 

3 remote cases were not part of the heated pan 

4 discussion.”

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: What I just said 

6 stands.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So written 

8 comments on these specific issues I think 

9 would be very, very helpful. Tim?

10 MR. ANDERSON: One last comment 

11 on the heated condensate pans for remote 

12 equipment. In effect, what will happen is 

13 that the end users of the equipment will 

14 purchase condensate pans separate from the 

15 cases, probably from a separate manufacturer,

16 and will install them themselves, and you 

17 know, bypassing UL safety regulations. 

18 So I don't think you're going to 

19 preclude that energy from being spent, you're

20 just going to have the end users find a way 

21 around it. And in my opinion the equipment 

22 will not be properly sized and potentially 
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1 not as safe.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, so just to 

4 take a step back. So, explain to me, do the 

5 remote cases -- what is the percentage of 

6 remote cases today that actually get sold 

7 with condensate pan heaters or pumps? From 

8 the manufacturer.

9 MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson from 

10 Hussmann. I can say for Hussmann it's less 

11 than 1 percent. 

12 And like Bruce mentioned earlier, 

13 the application is typically where a retailer

14 will go into an existing space, often a small

15 format store, could be a strip mall or 

16 something similar. And they don't want to 

17 add in thousands and thousands of dollars to 

18 trench the floors to add in floor drains.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, you believe 

20 across the board regardless of whether that 

21 unit is offered for sale with the use of a 

22 condensate pan heater, if it is a remote case
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1 it should not be tested with the pan heater 

2 or pump? That is what your belief is? 

3 That's not what our proposal is, but 

4 clarifying what your belief is.

5 MR. ANDERSON: Certainly. Tim 

6 Anderson. My belief is that it's such a low 

7 volume exception that it should be exempted 

8 from the test procedure.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

11 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr 

12 with NEEA. If they install these after13 market pan heaters are they going to be 

14 connecting into your equipment with those pan

15 heaters?

16 MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson. No, 

17 they would just be connecting to the 

18 electrical. You do mean an electrical 

19 connection?

20 MR. STARR: Right. I mean, I'm 

21 trying to see how it's going to affect the UL

22 rating of your machine, that's what I'm 
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1 trying to get at. Because they'll have to 

2 reply with the national electrical codes.

3 In other words, any electrical 

4 device you install is going to have to be --

5 MR. ANDERSON: Certainly. But if 

6 you're --

7 MR. STARR: So, if they're not 

8 connecting your equipment, they're complying 

9 with electrical codes, there's no real safety

10 issue it seems to me. 

11 MR. ANDERSON: If they don't size 

12 the pan properly you can run into other 

13 issues. Not electrical issues. Water on the

14 floor which can create lawsuits for the 

15 retailer. You know, you can create other 

16 issues there aside from electrical issues.

17 MR. STARR: The other thing is as 

18 far as the difference between adding a 

19 condensate pump as opposed to adding an 

20 electrical pan heater it costs a lot of money

21 to put a fairly sizable electrical load.

22 If the place is cooking food they 
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1 have ways of draining stuff there already. 

2 So connecting into a pump does not have to be

3 directly located above where it's draining 

4 to. You can have a pump and it can pump 15-

5 20 feet from its location. 

6 So if they're draining stuff in 

7 the restaurant I don't understand why they're

8 not able to connect into a plumbing 

9 connection. I mean, as when I used to do 

10 design that's what I would do is I would go 

11 find an appropriate receptor. I wouldn't go 

12 and say hey, let's find an electric pan 

13 heater. 

14 I'm trying to understand the 

15 design sense, why someone would come in 

16 afterwards and decide to put in a pan heater 

17 rather than just putting in a condensate pump

18 that has a very small connection.

19 MR. ANDERSON: It's Tim Anderson. 

20 The retailers that we're typically selling 

21 to are not restaurants. These are small 

22 grocery stores, dollar stores, things of that
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1 nature. Not places where they're preparing 

2 food.

3 MR. STARR: Right, but they're 

4 going to have to get a permit to put their 

5 stuff in, right? In the code. In other 

6 words, a design engineer or somebody that's a

7 design professional is going ahead and 

8 designing this stuff and outfitting it such 

9 that it's meeting code. 

10 So all these things still apply 

11 and the best design is still -- that's 

12 probably why you're only selling 1 percent is

13 because it doesn't make a lot of sense to do 

14 it that way.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Steven.

16 MR. KING: Yes, Steve King with 

17 Royston LLC. We have to keep in mind 

18 concurring with Hussmann even local law and 

19 local building laws around the United States 

20 do not support floor drains anymore. So 

21 that's all the way down into the local codes.

22 And as you say, point of purchase 
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1 equipment such as this with a new store build

2 is not going to have a drain system in some 

3 local municipalities, so.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: We're about to 

5 move on. Yes? Here we go.

6 MR. WEBER: All right, thanks. 

7 The next feature under discussion was anti8 sweat heaters on display doors.

9 Many transparent door cases come 

10 with them obviously, serve to evaporate 

11 condensate water. In some instances 

12 manufacturers might equip their cases with 

13 higher than standard anti-sweat power due to 

14 expected operation in adverse conditions, 

15 high ambient, high humidity, that sort of 

16 thing.

17 The proposed resolution agreed on 

18 through the reg neg sessions was that DOE 

19 proposes that anti-sweat heaters should be 

20 operational during testing under the test 

21 procedure with some further explanation that 

22 models of the user-selectable setting must be
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1 turned on and set to the maximum usage 

2 position.

3 Models featuring an automatic 

4 control system that's not adjustable by the 

5 user must be operating in the automatic 

6 state. And if a unit is not shipped with a 

7 controller from the point of manufacture but 

8 is intended in all cases to be used with a 

9 controller the manufacturer must make 

10 representations of the basic model based upon

11 the rate of performance as equipped and 

12 tested with the appropriate compatible 

13 controller.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on this 

15 proposal? Yes, Bruce?

16 MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce from Zero 

17 Zone. Just as we go through some of these 

18 other ones it seems somewhat random as to 

19 which things get to be turned on and which 

20 ones don't. 

21 So customers that have outdoor

22 markets or poor air conditioning, they have 
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1 to spend more money to have automatic 

2 controls. In some of these other 

3 areas they get to have filters. They can 

4 direct the air flow. It doesn't have to be 

5 tested with these item. They get to have 

6 more utility without more expense, whereas 

7 some of our customers with poor conditions 

8 have to spend more money to get the utility 

9 out of the equipment.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So, how would you 

11 suggest this be modified?

12 MR. HIERLMEIER: We'd prefer to 

13 allow the user in an adjustable situation to 

14 be able to turn it down and the equipment be 

15 set at -- one that would be marked for 75-55 

16 percent relative humidity.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: But that's for the 

18 user, or for the tester?

19 MR. HIERLMEIER: During test and 

20 then the user would have that as well so that

21 -- again, you're relying on the user to turn 

22 down his equipment to use the least amount of
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1 energy as possible because it's in their best

2 interest as well.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

4 Additional comments here on anti-sweat door 

5 heaters? Okay.

6 MR. WEBER: Next feature, UV 

7 lights, usually included for sanitation 

8 purposes. And it was agreed that UV lights 

9 should not be turned on during the test 

10 procedure.

11 Temperature displays and alarms. 

12 Illuminated displays providing visual 

13 information on equipment operating status. 

14 Also, alarms that would notify if a case fell

15 out of the specified operating -- or the 

16 desired operating range. Proposal is that 

17 these items are simply integral to the 

18 function of the equipment and would be 

19 enabled during the test as they would be used

20 in normal field operation.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on 

22 illuminated temperature displays and alarms. 
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1 MR. WEBER: Next item, non2 permanent condenser filters. Manufacturers 

3 may offer models equipped with these sorts of

4 filters to prevent particulates from blocking

5 the air flow. And the agreed upon proposal 

6 was that non-permanent filters should be 

7 removed during the test.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: No controversy 

9 there? No comment.

10 MR. WEBER: Security covers. An 

11 option to include straps for the devices to 

12 secure the condensing unit, preventing theft 

13 or tampering. And the proposal is that 

14 security devices should be removed during 

15 testing under the DOE test procedure.

16 Next item, grill options. 

17 Manufacturers may offer optional grills that 

18 are used to deflect air flow in unique 

19 applications such as rear mounts near to a 

20 wall where the air flow needs to be directed 

21 upwards.

22 The agreed-upon position during 
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1 the reg neg sessions was that, if present,

2 non-standard grills would be removed during 

3 testing.

4 Coated coils. Evaporator coils,

5 and condenser coils as well, generally coated

6 and specified for use in environments where 

7 there would be exposure to acids or 

8 oxidizers. Treated with additional coating 

9 such as an epoxy or polymer to prevent 

10 corrosion or other deterioration.

11 Existing test procedure 

12 accurately accounts for the performance of 

13 all types of coils including coated coils and

14 therefore there's no explicit proposal or 

15 change to anything because it's already 

16 captured.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here? No 

18 comments. 

19 MR. WEBER: Misting or 

20 humidification systems usually put in place 

21 to maintain the quality of products such as 

22 fresh produce, seafood or meat. And if 
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1 present, these systems would be left inactive

2 during the test.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

4 MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 

5 Store Fixtures. If this is -- obviously this

6 is done for specific applications. If 

7 misting systems and humidification systems 

8 are not to be operational during testing 

9 where in reality they would be used during 

10 the operation, why the previous slide which 

11 was the coil? I mean, the coated coil is --

12 it must be tested. However, this is not 

13 allowed to be tested.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

17 MR. NESHAN: So why?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Because that's 

19 what we negotiated. 

20 MR. NESHAN: Well, negotiated 

21 because you're forced to accept it because 

22 basically the issue was that if this --
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1 because there were other parties involved. 

2 And if that was -- if coated coil are not to 

3 be tested then that could also be waived from

4 the unitary units. I'm not sure which part 

5 of it it was. Isn't that's correct?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Please, I don't 

7 think anyone was forced to vote a certain 

8 way.

9 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. On the 

10 negotiations the discussion was coated coils 

11 are integral, built into the system and 

12 always in use 100 percent of the time. 

13 These other items are very --

14 they are very transient. You can set them 

15 wherever you want to. They're beyond the

16 control of the design. It's purely on 

17 control of the operator. And that's where a 

18 lot of the changes came from.

19 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. 

20 I think the other part is some things like 

21 coated coils inherently save energy in that 

22 the fact that if they're not coated they 
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1 become -- they quickly lose their use or 

2 abilities. So they actually are an energy3 saving device. So I think that's the other 

4 part of what got decided to be as part of 

5 included and not included. 

6 So, something that obviously will 

7 not save energy such as anti-sweat coils is 

8 not the same as coils when they get plugged 

9 and they're more inefficient. So having them

10 coated makes sense in that case. So that's 

11 the other part of it that was kind of the 

12 deciding process on that.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Any additional 

14 comments here? Yes.

15 MR. HIERLMEIER: Just to be 

16 somewhat of a pain -- Bruce from Zero Zone --

17 they could certainly test these energized at 

18 full on during the test procedure. So it 

19 runs completely just like they want the anti20 sweat heaters on the doors to run at full. 

21 So, and again, it's sort of one 

22 of these things where, okay, these people get
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1 a certain utility. Energy doesn't matter as 

2 long as you keep your vegetables fresh which 

3 is fine. But in other applications all of a 

4 sudden energy becomes important and we don't 

5 care if you have to mop the floor.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Moving on.

7 MR. WEBER: Next item under 

8 discussion during the negotiations was air 

9 purifiers. Supplemental purifying systems to

10 remove contaminants from air which is 

11 recirculated within the body of the case.

12 The proposed position was that 

13 air purifiers should be inactive during 

14 testing under the DOE test procedure. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments? 

16 MR. WEBER: General purpose 

17 outlets. Some CRE units may come equipped 

18 with integrated general purpose electrical 

19 outlets which can be used to power additional

20 equipment completely external to the 

21 refrigerator or freezer such as scales or 

22 slicers, for example, in a deli environment.
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1 The agreed-upon position being

2 proposed for confirmation here is that while 

3 testing using the DOE test procedure no 

4 external load should be connected to any 

5 general purpose outlets which are contained 

6 within the unit.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments.

8 MR. WEBER: And I believe the 

9 final item, yes, is crankcase heaters. Some 

10 CRE units come with electric resistance 

11 heaters designed to keep the compressor at an

12 optimal operating temperature during low 

13 ambient conditions such as if a unit was 

14 installed outdoors. 

15 The proposal for codification 

16 here was that if present crankcase heaters 

17 should be operational during the test. 

18 Under the proposal, however, if a 

19 control system is used to modulate the 

20 operation of the crankcase heater it should 

21 be used as intended according to the 

22 manufacturer's instructions. The intended 
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1 result of that being that at the DOE test 

2 conditions you generally would not see a 

3 crankcase heater activated.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, okay.

5 MR. NESHAN: Question. Neshan, 

6 Southern Store Fixtures. What happened to 

7 the crankcase pressure regulators? I thought

8 we discussed that when we agreed. I mean, 

9 that's missing from here. Crankcase pressure

10 regulators.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Crankcase pressure 

12 regulators.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're right, 

14 it's not included. So we'll make sure that's

15 clear.

16 MR. NESHAN: Thank you.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And the way it 

18 would be clear would be to state --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know yet.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It was part of 

22 the package that went to ASRAC so we just 
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1 need to pull the language. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Moving 

3 ahead?

4 MR. WEBER: Sure. So, that 

5 concludes the section specific to the 

6 outcomes of the reg neg sessions. 

7 But there were some other 

8 clarification items that arose as a result of

9 stakeholder inquiries and other avenues that 

10 we'd like to just address and seek comment 

11 upon.

12 The first of these involves the 

13 use of energy management systems during 

14 testing. The DOE test procedure states at 

15 this time that all devices that would 

16 normally be used in the field must be 

17 installed and operated in the same manner 

18 during the test procedure unless this is 

19 inconsistent with any requirement of the test

20 procedure. This therefore includes energy 

21 management systems.

22 If normal field installation or 
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1 operation would be inconsistent with any test

2 procedure requirement of which we'll give an 

3 example then the specific function that 

4 causes inconsistency must be disabled.

5 To give a little bit of 

6 concreteness to this, if an energy management

7 system raises or lowers the cabinet 

8 temperature, modulates it such that the 

9 applicable integrated average temperature 

10 can't be maintained, then in this case the 

11 function of the EMS that varies the cabinet 

12 temperature would need to be disabled in 

13 order to enable the provisions of the DOE 

14 test procedure, that rating temperature, to 

15 be met.

16 Other functions, however, may 

17 remain enabled provided that they don't cause

18 other effects that would cause the unit to 

19 violate provisions of the test procedure.

20 If those functions cannot be 

21 controlled separately, if it's a matter of 

22 the whole system, whole control scheme being 
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1 on or off, then that system would need to be 

2 disabled so that all provisions of the test 

3 procedure could be met.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on the 

5 foregoing? I see none.

6 MR. WEBER: All right. The 

7 second issue to be addressed for 

8 clarification discusses lighting.

9 DOE test procedure currently 

10 states that all devices that would normally 

11 be used in the field must be installed and 

12 operated in the same manner during the test.

13 ARI 1200-2006 and AHRI 1200-2010 

14 specify that the measured energy consumption,

15 TDEC or CDEC, shall include lighting loads. 

16 Seventy-two states at 6.1.1 that 

17 all standard components such as and including

18 lights, to paraphrase, shall be installed and

19 used as recommended by the manufacturer. 

20 Due to these explicit references 

21 to case lighting, DOE believes that the 

22 energy consumption associated with lights 
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1 installed on a model of CRE is intended to be

2 captured during testing. It's just 

3 background mostly.

4 And in 2012 test procedure final 

5 rule DOE adopted specific provisions for the 

6 treatment of lighting occupancy sensors and 

7 schedule controls, establishing specific time

8 periods during which these controls, 

9 variation in lighting may be turned off or 

10 dimmed during the test.

11 DOE wishes to clarify in response 

12 to some inquiries that are received that a 

13 mechanical light switch should not constitute

14 an energy management system or a lighting 

15 control for that matter. 

16 Models of commercial 

17 refrigeration equipment with lighting 

18 installed in the case and no energy 

19 management system shall be tested with lights

20 on to their maximum illumination level for 

21 the duration of the test.

22 Any lighting controls of the 
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1 user-selectable setting must be turned on and

2 set to the maximum usage position. An 

3 exception to this being models with solid 

4 doors with lighting controls that 

5 automatically turn off internal case lighting

6 when the door is closed.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on this, 

8 on lighting testing. Yes, Bruce.

9 MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce from Zero 

10 Zone. I had a question. If you have like an

11 open case that has multiple shelves and 

12 customers can choose to buy a light under the

13 shelf or not buy a light under the shelf does

14 that case need to be tested with all the 

15 lights installed? 

16 Or can you test it with the 

17 lights, you know, I have different basic 

18 models like a two-shelf lit case is one basic

19 model, a three-shelf lit case, and basically 

20 break it up into basic models. So you can 

21 have different energy levels depending on the

22 number of lights that you are selling at that
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1 instant.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And an unlit case 

3 would be another basic model.

4 MR. HIERLMEIER: Yes, or a top 

5 nose and bottom sometimes.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let me think 

7 about that for a minute. Yes, let me think 

8 about that for a second.

9 MR. HIERLMEIER: I had a 

10 different question as well.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

12 MR. HIERLMEIER: The standards 

13 now coming out and allowing energy levels to 

14 be used with automatic lighting controls, but

15 I thought in 2012 you couldn't start using 

16 that testing procedure until the regulations 

17 got updated and in a sense reduced to account

18 for that. 

19 Is that still the case or would 

20 you be able to start testing once this is 

21 adopted and start testing with those controls

22 in place without having to reduce the energy 
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1 level of the standard? Or do we have to wait

2 till the 2017?

3 MR. WEBER: The next slide 

4 clarifies that.

5 MR. HIERLMEIER: Okay.

6 MR. WEBER: We're just taking 

7 comment at this point.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead.

9 MR. HON: Wait a second, I have a 

10 question before we go. Charlie Hon, True 

11 Manufacturing.

12 I have one concern about the 

13 statements here because certain occupancy 

14 sensors have a learning curve built into them

15 where they learn over a period of time when 

16 to turn the lights on and off.

17 Unfortunately, during the test 

18 procedure the rooms are closed, there's no 

19 activity inside of the test room, so that if 

20 they're locked in there for more than a week 

21 or so they'll have learned to turn the lights

22 off because there's no activity near the 
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1 unit. How do you deal with that?

2 MR. WEBER: Is there a manual 

3 override on those?

4 MR. HON: They can be programmed 

5 to override.

6 MR. WEBER: Okay. Because the 

7 way the test procedure currently reads it's a

8 fixed time off. It's a fixed time off.

9 MR. HON: But there are many of 

10 them now that are learning curves built into 

11 them.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So by default 

13 they would be tested with this program. So, 

14 if they can't be -- I mean, right now if they

15 can't be overridden such that the program 

16 could be applied to them then if you want 

17 credit for them you need to come get a 

18 waiver.

19 MR. WEBER: So, moving on to 

20 speak to the point that Bruce raised.

21 The way the NOPR has reorganized 

22 the language of the test procedure divides it
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1 into -- proposes to divide it into two 

2 appendices with different applicabilities in 

3 time.

4 The first appendix would be 

5 what's relevant today and applicable today. 

6 The second would be what was being discussed 

7 earlier which is tied into revised standards 

8 and would be applicable at that time.

9 So, in the first appendix what 

10 would be on the books today and for use today

11 would be that all lighting must be energized 

12 at the maximum illumination level throughout 

13 the whole test. And the exception would be 

14 for solid door models that include automatic 

15 controls such as just a pressure switch that 

16 disable case lighting when the door is 

17 closed.

18 In Appendix B this includes the 

19 material from the 2012 test procedure rule 

20 that was discussed as well as this 

21 clarification. All lighting shall be 

22 energized to its maximum illumination level 
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1 except for a model that's equipped with 

2 occupancy sensors or scheduled controls, or 

3 when a model is outfitted with other 

4 permanently installed automatic energy 

5 management systems that control lighting.

6 And if a unit that includes -- if 

7 a unit includes an automatic lighting control

8 system it should be enabled during the test. 

9 If it's equipped with occupancy sensor and 

10 controls it should be tested in accordance 

11 with the provisions adopted specifically 

12 referring to those systems in the 2012 test 

13 procedure final rule. 

14 MR. HIERLMEIER: So when would B 

15 start applying? Would that be when 2017 

16 comes out? Would that be when this NOPR gets

17 finished? Kind of what year I guess.

18 MR. WEBER: B would be tied to 

19 the compliance with new standards.

20 MR. HIERLMEIER: So it would be 

21 like 2017?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't know 
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1 what the actual date is, but roughly.

2 MR. HIERLMEIER: The 3-year --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

4 MR. HIERLMEIER: Okay. Thank 

5 you.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: With the caveat 

7 that DOE has issued guidance, across-the8 board guidance for all products that allows 

9 the use of amended test procedures early but 

10 as part of that guidance you would have to 

11 comply with amended standards early and 

12 certify such. So, that's -- this Appendix B 

13 is key to the provisions of the 2017-ish 

14 standards. 

15 MR. WEBER: All right. Final 

16 issue for clarification was in response to an

17 inquiry on test package temperatures. 

18 Stakeholders inquired whether the 

19 DOE test procedure has specific requirements 

20 for the test simulators and filler packages 

21 that must be met prior to loading them into 

22 the unit at all.
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1 ASHRAE 72 provides specific 

2 instructions as to loading of test simulators

3 and filler packages. That's at 6.2. As well

4 as with respect to temperature stabilization 

5 at 7.4. States that the unit must run till 

6 steady state conditions as defined in Section

7 3 are achieved. And then after steady state 

8 operation is reached the unit must operate 

9 for another period of 12 hours before it's 

10 deemed to be stabilized.

11 Therefore, DOE doesn't believe 

12 that the product simulators or test packages 

13 need to be at any specified temperature 

14 condition prior to loading before the 

15 stabilization or pull-down period even 

16 occurs.

17 If there's no questions on that 

18 then Sarah will address this final major 

19 section.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, one quick 

21 question to all of you before Sarah starts 

22 talking. We have one section left and 
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1 there's a couple of minor things at the 

2 beginning but what we're going to get into I 

3 have a feeling will cause a lot of discussion

4 which is TDA. And some of the slides -- I've

5 rearranged some of the slides for TDA and I'm

6 going to be presenting that part.

7 But before we do that does anyone 

8 need a 5-minute break? Just a quick 5-minute

9 break. Because we will be pushing through so

10 we can end this before lunch. So does 

11 anybody want a quick 5-minute break, go to 

12 the bathroom, do whatever you need to do, 

13 check email, make a quick phone call? And we

14 reconvene in 5 minutes. Yes. So take a 

15 quick 5-minute break.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, 5 minutes. 

17 You know where the restrooms are.

18 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

19 went off the record at 11:39 a.m. and went 

20 back on the record at 11:48 a.m.)

21 MR. BROOKMAN: All right, let's 

22 start. The last few days have been very 
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1 frustrating here. We haven't been able to --

2 for web participants to join us and speak 

3 into the room. But now I think we have that 

4 fixed. So those of you that are joining us 

5 via the web, please feel free to raise your 

6 hand and we'll fit you into this 

7 conversation.

8 And, Joe, you had several 

9 comments. However, Ron, had several 

10 comments. Ron, do you want to speak now to 

11 cover anything that we may not have covered 

12 sufficiently from your perspective so far? 

13 Ron's not on right now, okay. 

14 MR. ANDERSON: He said he lost 

15 the webinar.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: And in fact we had 

17 to reboot the webinar, so apologies for that 

18 as well.

19 Okay, now we're going to proceed. 

20 Are we ready to do this?

21 MS. WIDDER: We're ready.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So, we have a 

2 few, as Ashley mentioned, a few minor test 

3 procedure issues before we'll get into the 

4 other major clarification that DOE is 

5 proposing that Ashley will present regarding 

6 TDA. Just a few minor clarifications.

7 The first is around rounding of 

8 test results and certified ratings. The 

9 current DOE test procedure incorporates by 

10 reference ARI Standard 1200-2006 and then in 

11 the 2012 provisions which would be applicable

12 with any amended standards, AHRI Standard 

13 1200 -- you can't even see that -- there, 

14 2010. New one.

15 So, those standards require that 

16 the energy consumption for covered equipment 

17 be expressed in terms of kilowatt hours per 

18 day and stated in increments of 0.01 kilowatt

19 hours per day.

20 Similarly, since those standards 

21 are incorporated by reference in the DOE test

22 procedure, DOE's -- the certified ratings 
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1 that manufacturers submit to DOE should also 

2 be reported in units of kilowatt hours 

3 rounded to 0.01 kilowatt hours per day.

4 One thing that was not clear was 

5 when that rounding should occur. And in the 

6 case that that has any influence on the 

7 certified value that one manufacturer test 

8 lab would get versus another DOE wishes to 

9 clarify that these calculations should be 

10 done using raw measured values and then 

11 rounded to 0.01 kilowatt hours at the end. 

12 And we will -- DOE is proposing to 

13 incorporate these requirements into the DOE 

14 test procedure to clarify.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here.

16 MS. WIDDER: Any comments? We 

17 request comment on the proposed rounding 

18 provisions and their applicability to the 

19 test procedure and the certification 

20 requirements. All right.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here.

22 MS. WIDDER: We'll move on.
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1 MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 

2 Store Fixtures. Just one comment. This 

3 rounding of the test results and the raw 

4 data, the raw data per ASHRAE Standard 72, it

5 only carries to one decimal point. If you 

6 check.

7 MS. WIDDER: I'm not recalling 

8 that requirement, but the Department will 

9 certainly review that.

10 MR. NESHAN: All right, thank 

11 you.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: You, I presume, 

13 would like to have them be consistent. 

14 MR. NESHAN: Yes.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I just wanted that 

16 in the record.

17 MR. NESHAN: No, no, absolutely, 

18 yes.

19 (Laughter)

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

21 Okay.

22 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Actually, I 
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1 have a follow-up question for Massoud. Are 

2 you saying that the CDEC and TDEC are only 

3 rounded to 0.1 kilowatt hours per day? Or 

4 the actual -- what is only rounded to 0.1?

5 MR. NESHAN: No, Neshan, Southern 

6 Store Fixtures. Obviously ASHRAE 72 has 

7 nothing to do with the CDEC and all that. 

8 It's just a method of testing and recording.

9 MS. WIDDER: Right.

10 MR. NESHAN: When you record 

11 temperatures and pressures and all that 

12 stuff.

13 MS. WIDDER: Right. And energy.

14 MR. NESHAN: And energy, carried 

15 to one decimal point. That's all I'm saying.

16 MS. WIDDER: So the energy in 

17 ASHRAE Standard 72 is only one decimal point.

18 MR. NESHAN: The BTU requirement, 

19 though, when you measure the BTU requirement 

20 of a remote display case it is one decimal 

21 point.

22 MS. WIDDER: Well, there's 
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1 certainly more significant digits in terms of

2 BTUs though.

3 MR. NESHAN: Yes, but 

4 temperatures. I mean there is --

5 MS. WIDDER: Right, right. We'll 

6 certainly consider that in the subsequent --

7 how significant digits are carried through. 

8 Thank you.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, moving on.

10 MS. WIDDER: This is just some 

11 clarifying slides on the lowest application 

12 product temperature provision. There's been 

13 some discussion of that earlier today and 

14 also inquires that have been received by the 

15 Department regarding applicability of this 

16 provision.

17 In light of those this slide 

18 provides background on what is currently 

19 required and then subsequent slides provide 

20 proposed clarifications to the lowest 

21 application product temperature provision.

22 Currently, DOE defines lowest 
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1 application product temperature as the 

2 integrated average temperature closest to the

3 specified rating temperature for a given 

4 piece of equipment achievable and repeatable 

5 such that the integrated average temperature 

6 for a given unit is within +/- 2 degrees 

7 Fahrenheit of the average of all integrated 

8 average temperature values for that basic 

9 model.

10 It's confusing and sort of a 

11 mouthful. The idea, the intent of this 

12 definition is that a manufacturer is to 

13 certify -- if a piece of commercial 

14 refrigeration equipment, a model, a basic 

15 model of commercial refrigeration equipment 

16 cannot meet the rating temperature for that 

17 equipment class the manufacturer would 

18 certify the lowest application product 

19 temperature. 

20 The intent is that lowest 

21 application product temperature will be 

22 consistent across the units for that basic 
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1 model. So, for example, you couldn't pull --

2 you could not specify 8 degrees Fahrenheit 

3 and then have other models that maybe DOE 

4 would pull in enforcement that really can, in

5 fact, either meet the rating temperature or 

6 meet something much lower than your specified

7 lowest application product temperature. We 

8 would like consistency across units of a 

9 given basic model. So, in light of that, it 

10 was a confusing definition. 

11 This is just another -- a little 

12 more background about when the lowest 

13 application product temperature applies. We 

14 discussed that it applies to a certain basic 

15 model of commercial refrigeration equipment 

16 that cannot be operated at the prescribed 

17 rating temperature, but all other 

18 requirements of the DOE test procedure apply.

19 Except that you have to test --

20 the rating temperature shall be +/- 2 degrees

21 of the lowest application product 

22 temperature. The measured integrated average
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1 temperature recorded during the test will be 

2 within 2 degrees of the certified lowest 

3 application product temperature for that 

4 piece of equipment.

5 So, here's an example. Hopefully 

6 this helps. The lowest application product 

7 temperature. So, for example, if a basic 

8 model freezer has an operating range from 8 

9 to 28 degrees Fahrenheit and thus cannot 

10 operate at the prescribed rating temperature 

11 of zero degrees Fahrenheit for freezers that 

12 basic model would be tested as low as it can 

13 go which in this case is 8 degrees 

14 Fahrenheit.

15 In this case, if DOE were to 

16 randomly select a representative unit to test

17 for compliance purposes that unit should be 

18 able to maintain an integrated average 

19 temperature between 6 and 10 degrees 

20 Fahrenheit, and that should be as low as it 

21 can go for that unit.

22 And it should not -- that unit 
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1 must not be able to operate at zero degrees 

2 Fahrenheit. That is the important part.

3 For many cases this is always the 

4 lowest thermostat setting. That's a 

5 clarification. 

6 And when DOE conducts a test in 

7 accordance with the lowest application 

8 product temperature a lot of times that will 

9 be turning down the thermostat all the way. 

10 And so to the extent that that's consistent 

11 among units is what we're going for here.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to say 

13 one clarification.

14 MS. WIDDER: Yes, go for it.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not a lot of 

16 times. We will be turning the thermostat all

17 the way down. So, if for some odd reason 

18 your literature speaks to a certain operating

19 range for your temperature and we happen to 

20 test a unit and we crank it down to the 

21 lowest thermostat setting and it is operating

22 outside of that range we are going to test at
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1 the lowest temperature the unit is capable of

2 running. I just want to make that 

3 clarification.

4 And you are required to test at 

5 the lowest temperature that unit is capable 

6 of running.

7 MS. WIDDER: So, to clarify, DOE 

8 proposes to modify the lowest application 

9 product temperature provision. Hopefully 

10 this is a little more clear.

11 Lowest application product 

12 temperature means the lowest integrated 

13 average temperature at which a given basic 

14 model is capable of consistently operating, 

15 i.e., maintaining so as to comply with the 

16 steady state stabilization requirement 

17 specified in ASHRAE as incorporated by 

18 reference for the purposes of testing under 

19 the DOE test procedure.

20 The other part of turning down 

21 the thermostat all the way is that 

22 temperature when we're at the lowest 
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1 application product temperature still has to 

2 meet the stabilization requirements specified

3 in ASHRAE. And so those are the two bounds 

4 that help us define what lowest application 

5 product temperature is. 

6 And now that we're explicitly 

7 referencing ASHRAE 72-2005 DOE is proposing 

8 to incorporate by reference that standard 

9 which has always been the method of test 

10 inherent in AHRI or ARI 1200-2006 and AHRI 

11 1200-2010. But now that's explicitly 

12 incorporated by reference in the DOE's test 

13 procedures in the CFR as well.

14 DOE requests comment on its 

15 proposed modification to the lowest 

16 application product temperature definition. 

17 Is it more clear? Are there other things 

18 that should be incorporated?

19 I think hopefully our intent is 

20 clear, but it is difficult to write in words.

21 And its proposal to incorporate by reference

22 ASHRAE 72.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

2 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 

3 Manufacturing. ASHRAE 72-2005, the final 

4 review publication is in action right now and

5 will be completed at the end of this year. 

6 So that probably needs to be considered as 

7 2014 publication.

8 The second thing is that you're 

9 relying on mechanical sometimes controllers 

10 on some of these units. So, the mechanical 

11 controllers can change. 

12 And I know good and well what I 

13 will do is dummy up the controller to run a 

14 little bit colder than a normal controller 

15 just so I don't run into a problem. But that

16 way you have a very conservative number.

17 But 2 degrees Fahrenheit plus or 

18 minus on a controller turned all the way down

19 I think is not repeatable at all. I think 

20 you're going to be 3 to 4 degrees at least.

21 MS. WIDDER: Just to follow up on 

22 that. If you have suggestions about a better
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1 way that the Department could define the 

2 lowest temperature for a basic model such 

3 that it's consistent but also not allowing 

4 for manufacturers to just pick any number. 

5 That's the struggle we have.

6 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon 

7 again. From our point of view we will be 

8 conservative and we will just dummy up the 

9 controller to where it runs slightly colder 

10 than we believe our standard product would 

11 ever get to and thereby guarantee that we 

12 would have a very conservative energy number.

13 But I cannot guarantee that we 

14 would be repeatable within +/- 2 degrees of 

15 where we said the unit was tested. But isn't

16 it more important to be conservative and 

17 efficient in our efficiency number? 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So I 

19 thought the explanation was really quite 

20 clear. So additional comments on this 

21 proposed definition? Yes, Tim.

22 MR. ANDERSON: In Section 2.2 of 
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1 Appendix B, I'll go ahead and read this. It 

2 says for remote condensing equipment without 

3 a thermostat or other means of controlling 

4 temperature at the case the lowest 

5 application product temperature is the 

6 temperature achieved with the adjusted dew 

7 point temperature as defined in AHRI Standard

8 1200 set to 5 degrees colder than that 

9 required to maintain the manufacturer's 

10 lowest specified application temperature. 

11 Can you comment on how you came 

12 about that number and illustrate in the 

13 example how that would be used? The example 

14 you had on slide 63.

15 MS. WIDDER: So, in the 2012 test 

16 procedure rulemaking the issue regarding the 

17 applicability of the lowest application 

18 product temperature to remote cases that do 

19 not have thermostats in the case was raised. 

20 And DOE recognizes that this is an issue.

21 So this was a suggestion received 

22 by manufacturers as part of the comments on 
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1 the NOPR. The way that it would apply here 

2 is if -- I can imagine physical limits in 

3 terms of refrigerant flow and pipe sizing 

4 that would limit how -- or the heat exchanger

5 size that would limit the cooling that a case

6 is capable of and that intended temperature 

7 would be your lowest application product 

8 temperature. 

9 And then because there's 

10 variability in the sizing of condensers that 

11 can be attached to the remote case you would 

12 set the section temperature on that case such

13 that you maintained the intended lowest 

14 application product temperature for that 

15 case. This is --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Minus 5, right?

17 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: We would do the 

19 same thing you would do. So in that case the

20 example is not as applicable because the 

21 instructions are different. But DOE would do

22 the same thing you would do in setting that 
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1 temperature.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And say what that 

3 would be.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, he read it. 

5 I don't have it in front of me, so.

6 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. Tim 

7 Anderson. I want to make sure that I 

8 understand. So, I'm going to give an 

9 example.

10 I'm going to use the LAPT of 8 

11 that was used in the example on slide 63. So

12 if the LAPT for a piece of equipment is 8 

13 Fahrenheit you would then -- and let's say 

14 that the dew point temperature, not adjusted 

15 dew point, dew point temperature to achieve 8

16 is zero. Okay? So that's basically the 

17 manufacturer's recommended set point to 

18 achieve an IAT of 8. 

19 The adjusted dew point -- or, I'm 

20 sorry. So then you would take 5 below that. 

21 You would run the unit at a -5 adjusted dew 

22 point which equates to a -2 dew point. So 
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1 you would run the unit at -2.

2 MS. WIDDER: Yes, it sounds 

3 right. The adjusted dew point 5 degrees 

4 cooler than that required to maintain the 

5 lowest application product temperature. So 

6 yes, if the dew point is zero and then you go

7 5 degrees below.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you asking 5 

9 degrees below the dew point or 5 degrees to 

10 get 5 degrees below the lowest application 

11 product temperature? 

12 MS. WIDDER: No, the adjusted dew 

13 point to achieve the lowest application 

14 product temperature. Will you read it again?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's just take 

16 it offline.

17 MS. WIDDER: Yes, we'll --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get your 

19 question though.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron would like to 

21 speak. Ron, I think this can work. Welcome.

22 MR. SHEBIK: Can you guys hear me 
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1 now?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we can hear 

3 you. Yay.

4 MR. SHEBIK: I appreciate it, but 

5 actually the question I had Tim Anderson 

6 worded it much better and he got the point 

7 across I believe. 

8 (Laughter)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: What an 

10 anticlimax.

11 MR. SHEBIK: Sorry about that.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Ron. 

13 Okay.

14 MR. SHEBIK: Thank you.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So, do we have 

16 additional comments regarding this revised 

17 LAPT definition? 

18 MS. WIDDER: And I would say 

19 specifically on the case of -- or in the case

20 of remote cases with no thermostat which we 

21 were just discussing, if there are specific 

22 comments about a better, or more clear, or 
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1 more consistent approach to describing the 

2 lowest application product temperature for 

3 those cases that's different than what is 

4 already on the books the DOE welcomes comment

5 on that.

6 Okay, moving on then.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Neshan, did you 

8 have something there? Neshan.

9 MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 

10 Store Fixtures.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I could see the 

12 wheels turning.

13 MR. NESHAN: Yes. But for the 

14 record most remote refrigerated display cases

15 go out of the factory without a thermostat on

16 them. I mean, it's hardly -- really 

17 exception to have a thermostat on a remote 

18 case.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Really?

20 MS. WIDDER: Yes, but I also have 

21 another --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: The remotes.
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1 MS. WIDDER: So I have a follow2 up question. I understand that, but my 

3 understanding is that most remote cases can 

4 also meet their rating temperatures. That 

5 it's unusual for remote cases to be designed 

6 such that they cannot meet the rating 

7 temperatures because of the flexibility in 

8 the condensing unit.

9 MR. NESHAN: Well, if they cannot 

10 meet the rating then you're in trouble. 

11 MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson. 

12 There are some low-temperature cabinets which

13 are limited in terms of the evaporator and 

14 air flow, open cases typically. But you're 

15 right that the condensing unit side is 

16 typically never an issue until you get down 

17 to, you know. So it's more components in the

18 case could be where your LAPT may be 8 rather

19 than zero on a few cabinets.

20 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Yes, that was 

21 just -- I mean anyway, just wanted to clarify

22 that.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: You got that?

2 MS. WIDDER: Yes, I got it. 

3 Thank you very much.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Moving on then.

5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. And now 

6 Ashley is going to talk about TDA and AHRI 

7 interpretation. 

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So as I 

9 mentioned at the beginning of the webinar we 

10 got some preliminary questions and comments 

11 before today's public meeting about TDA.

12 So, I assume that everyone has 

13 read the proposal for TDA, DOE's 

14 clarification. So let me step through this 

15 real quick.

16 One is that I just want to make 

17 clear something. This has a little bit to do

18 with this, but it's a little broad.

19 A number -- we understand that 

20 we've incorporated by reference portions of 

21 industry standards. Some of those are ASHRAE

22 standards, they may be AHRI standards, they 
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1 may be AHAM standards in the case of volume.

2 We do want to clarify though, 

3 unless the Department has actually issued 

4 guidance through our formalized guidance 

5 process the guidance doesn't count for the 

6 federal test procedure. 

7 So if one of those organizations 

8 decides to answer questions or issue guidance

9 the way to get it into the test procedure 

10 would be to present it to DOE to move through

11 DOE's guidance process. 

12 Just because the guidance has 

13 been adopted either as an ASHRAE addendum if 

14 there is such a thing or an AHRI guidance 

15 document, it doesn't count for the purposes 

16 of DOE testing unless DOE has officially 

17 adopted through its guidance process and says

18 it must be used. So I do want to clarify 

19 that.

20 If you have questions about the 

21 federal method of test once it becomes a 

22 federal method of test we would work closely 
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1 with ASHRAE in resolving them, we would 

2 closely with AHRI and everyone else, but they

3 need to go through the formalized process at 

4 that point. Okay?

5 So, we know that there's five 

6 interpretations out there that AHRI has 

7 issued. I'm not going to go through them 

8 here because I think a TDA discussion is more

9 useful at this point and you have our 

10 positions on them.

11 And now I'm going to move to the 

12 slides you don't have. I apologize you don't

13 have them in advance. I've taken out the 

14 next set of slides to show you some 

15 illustrations.

16 So, we've gotten a lot of 

17 questions with regards to TDA in terms of how

18 certain links are calculated for the purposes

19 of TDA measurement. 

20 So, you don't have these in your 

21 document. We will make them available right 

22 after the public meeting so that you do have 
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1 a copy.

2 But I wanted, for the purposes of 

3 discussion I wanted to present to you four 

4 different scenarios and start a discussion 

5 about TDA.

6 So, scenario 1 shows -- I'm going 

7 to present all four and then I welcome your 

8 feedback. Scenario 1 shows a case with the 

9 wall flush with the visible area. So you can

10 see we have presented three different ways 

11 that the lengths could be calculated. 

12 It could be the boundary of the 

13 refrigerated volume edge to edge. It could 

14 be B which is the entire continuous length 

15 which would be including the mullions. Or it

16 can be C + D + E which is actually the sum of

17 the lengths of the visible areas only. So 

18 I'm going to go to the next example.

19 So, why this matters is because 

20 we've come across -- we understand this is 

21 the way most commercial refrigeration 

22 equipment is designed with the boundary of 
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1 the refrigerated volume fairly flush with the

2 glass. And the mullions are minimized such 

3 that you really are maintaining as much 

4 visible area as possible because you're 

5 trying to sell product. So when I go to the 

6 next scenarios keep that in mind.

7 Scenario 2. This is where the 

8 visible area is almost inset from the 

9 boundary of the refrigerated volume. So 

10 there's a difference. It almost comes around

11 and overlaps and then the glass inlays a 

12 little bit. 

13 So you can calculate length a 

14 couple of different ways. One would be the 

15 inside wall to the inside wall of the 

16 refrigerated volume. That is larger than the

17 actual glass.

18 You can calculate it by B, the 

19 entire continuous length containing the 

20 visible area only. That would include the 

21 mullions though.

22 Or you can do C + D + E which is 
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1 the sum of the lengths just of the visible 

2 area. I think you know our proposal is C + D

3 + E, by the way.

4 So, this case is a little bit of 

5 an oversize, egregious case. Because I 

6 realize that as a commercial refrigeration 

7 equipment manufacturer you're probably trying

8 to maximize your visible area to sell 

9 product. But I wanted to show an example of 

10 why this matters from the Department's 

11 perspective. 

12 So, for this one it's the same 

13 scenario too except for they have a really 

14 big mullion in the middle, like really big. 

15 And assume for the purposes of discussion 

16 that's a composite, it's foamed and it's 

17 just, you know, almost as big as one of the 

18 windows.

19 So then for this we have three 

20 ways of calculating TDA. Should it be the 

21 boundary of the refrigerated volume once 

22 again? Should it be the continuous length of
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1 the visible area which would include the 

2 mullion? And in this case that's a very 

3 large portion. Or should it really just be 

4 the sum of the visible areas?

5 And then I'm going to go through 

6 scenario 4. And this is where the glass 

7 actually overhangs the refrigerated volume. 

8 So the internal is smaller than the glass 

9 itself, the refrigerated space. So the 

10 boundary of the refrigerated volume fits into

11 where the glass is. 

12 And for the purpose of this the 

13 entire continuous length of visible area 

14 would actually be larger than the 

15 refrigerated volume itself. And then 

16 obviously you can see the two ways to 

17 calculate just the visible areas.

18 So, I understand it may be hard 

19 because you don't have these slides in front 

20 of you, but when the Department was coming 

21 out with an interpretation or its proposal 

22 these are the scenarios we were trying to 
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1 think of. And so this is what we would like 

2 your feedback on. Because I understand that 

3 people may have a lot of feedback on what we 

4 should do.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, and maybe 

6 when you comment you can refer to the 

7 scenario that you wish to comment on. Who'd 

8 like to start? Tim? Which scenario? 

9 MR. ANDERSON: Go back to the 

10 first one. Tim Anderson, Hussmann. The 

11 point that I would like to make and that I 

12 was trying to illustrate with the exhibit 

13 that we submitted was not so much that we 

14 have a problem with using one method versus 

15 the other. 

16 It's that when the standard 

17 levels were set and the proposed standard 

18 levels were created for let's call it the 

19 2017 rule that essentially the first one, 

20 length A, was used in all of those analyses. 

21

22 So, you've already used this 
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1 method for setting your standard levels. If 

2 you are going to change it, that's fine, 

3 let's agree on a way to change it, but you 

4 also have to revise the standard levels 

5 accordingly.

6 If you subtract 10 percent of our 

7 TDA from our case you have to adjust the 

8 standard levels so that we're not unfairly 

9 penalized. That's the point that I want to 

10 make.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So, I'm 

12 going to go on the record saying the 

13 Department will not adjust TDA in a manner 

14 that will increase the stringency of the 

15 standards you are required to meet today.

16 Now, what we want to get out of 

17 the discussion is what should TDA actually 

18 be. What is the best method that TDA -- how 

19 should TDA really be calculated? 

20 So I'm going to turn the question 

21 a little bit in the sense that we get the 

22 standards point. We will deal with that.
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1 But with my examples do you see 

2 the differences? 

3 MR. NESHAN: Yes, Ashley. 

4 Neshan, Southern Store Fixtures. I mean, 

5 this obviously is very typical of a 

6 commercial refrigeration door cases 

7 manufactured in the United States and other 

8 places as well.

9 The second one that you had, this 

10 is really the only place, and Bruce mentioned

11 you have seen this is when you have an ice 

12 storage or one of those units you see outside

13 of a gas station in the self-ice in plastic 

14 bags. You would see a door and then the 

15 insulated on either sides.

16 And then the last one, the fourth 

17 one that you were showing, this one, I've 

18 never seen anything like this because I don't

19 think anybody wants to open a door and then 

20 be in a non-refrigerated area because that 

21 would be a very, very difficult -- really 

22 you're penalizing yourself and it's not a 
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1 very good design. 

2 But typically that number 1 is 

3 what everybody is familiar with. Our 

4 equipment is manufactured that way.

5 And by the way, this does not 

6 only apply to the door type cases. I mean, 

7 I'm talking about the reach-in door cases. 

8 It is also applicable to service over counter

9 where you have the sliding doors in the back.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, it's going 

11 to apply there.

12 MR. NESHAN: So it's -- and there 

13 are other equipment very similar to it. 

14 So, the -- in my opinion the best 

15 way to do it is what we have been doing so 

16 far and how it was -- the TDA was calculated 

17 when the 2008 calculation was put together, 

18 to stay with that, how it was defined, and 

19 that would have been A, the first version, 

20 whatever.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, how do you 

22 reconcile that with the definition of TDA 
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1 includes the projected areas for visible 

2 product? What do we do with A there?

3 MR. NESHAN: I don't know who 

4 would make a case like that.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: But we have to 

6 write regs that are very clear and meet the 

7 intent of the projected areas -- meet that 

8 definition. 

9 MR. NESHAN: This is Neshan. I 

10 don't have an answer because I've never seen 

11 anything like this.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I mean, 

13 it's a tense point, right? I mean, the 

14 reason you see the difference there is 

15 because the mullion area really is about 10 

16 percent. That's why you're seeing a 

17 difference. 

18 And the question becomes does the 

19 mullion area really meet the intent of the 

20 TDA definition which is projected areas for 

21 visible product. I'm asking. It's a 

22 question. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Bruce.

2 MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce from Zero 

3 Zone. I mean, I think when we started 

4 looking at TDA a long time ago we never got 

5 really good correlation actually in the data.

6 And we looked at our competitors’ cases as a

7 group and all that and said all right, how 

8 does TDA really compare to the energy use and

9 shouldn't we be using volume for remote cases

10 and all, and what about the depth of the 

11 case? Do you get a benefit if you've got a 

12 deeper case? 

13 And it was kind of one of those 

14 you negotiate, you look at and say all right,

15 we're just going to do TDA and we're going to

16 do the length of the case. So we don't have 

17 a lot of engineering data to point out what's

18 the difference in energy level for scenario 3

19 which you think would be a lot because you 

20 could have an insulated panel, doesn't have 

21 any glass heat, doesn't have any radiated 

22 components or anything. But we don't have 
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1 good numbers to tell you how much to add or 

2 cut out of that to regulate against it even.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think 

4 that's a different question, right? It's 

5 more the question of if we were -- we are 

6 providing guidance, more details about how 

7 TDA should be calculated. And the definition

8 of TDA is projected areas for visible 

9 product. What should that guidance say? 

10 I mean, are mullions are visible 

11 product? Please speak. I mean, this is 

12 meant to be a discussion. 

13 MR. SCHRINER: Arneg USA, Nick 

14 Schriner. It depends on how close you are to

15 the product. Because if you can get close 

16 enough you can see this. Are you talking a 

17 10-foot straight on view?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, it also 

19 depends on how big those mullions are, 

20 correct? If you have on that's 3 feet wide, 

21 don't know why you would do that, but if you 

22 have one that was 3 feet wide I would argue 
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1 you may not be able to see visible product on

2 the other end ever.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce.

4 MR. HIERLMEIER: Well, when we 

5 were looking at these interpretations at AHRI

6 we had toyed with, all right, you're going to

7 put a person in front of the door. And we 

8 were actually looking at the vertical ones. 

9 And we were like, all right, what 

10 if you had an angle and you said that person 

11 could look up 30 inches from this point and 

12 anything that you could project and see from 

13 that location would be considered visible 

14 space.

15 Ultimately vertically we said no, 

16 we're just going to go direct in 

17 horizontally. But we had looked at, sort of 

18 to Arneg's point, you know can you look 

19 sideways at it. At a certain distance out, 

20 at a certain position in front of that 

21 opening what can you see sideways? Anything 

22 you can see sideways you get to consider as 
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1 display area. 

2 Things you can't see -- so like 

3 if B was wide, 6 feet wide, odds are you 

4 can't stand in front of it and see 3 feet to 

5 the side. But maybe you'd get, you know, 

6 another 10 or 12 inches, whatever you might 

7 be able to see. So, I mean that would be one

8 method is you pick a point, you put some 

9 dimensions on it and that allows you to get 

10 beyond normal mullions.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I agree, that 

12 is one method. That is a little subjective, 

13 right? Somebody would have to make the 

14 determination of what you could see and what 

15 you can't. Sure.

16 MR. ANDERSON: So, just 

17 brainstorming. Tim Anderson, Hussmann. What

18 if you used, and going back to the first one 

19 again, what if you used A but set a threshold

20 for the amount of the thickness of the 

21 mullions that could be excluded? 

22 You know, so you said A is the 
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1 length of the case unless, you know, the 

2 thickness of these mullions is greater than 

3 15 percent of the overall A dimension, 

4 something like that. That may be a way to 

5 try to avoid the situations like you show in 

6 I think it was scenario 3.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, we 

8 could do that. That's definitely an idea. I

9 would argue you should use B. In your case A

10 and B are the same for your standard cases. 

11 Where B helps us is when you have 

12 the wraparound. And if you have a wraparound

13 like you were explaining with the ice chest 

14 there is a difference there. And B would get

15 you to what your mullion issue.

16 We could -- I mean this really --

17 scenario 1, 2, 3 and 4 was meant to generate 

18 ideas and a discussion. Our proposal was C +

19 D + E.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Say why.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that was 

22 the only way that -- well, A, you know, it 
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1 says projected areas for visible product, and

2 B, you know, when you're just counting the 

3 glass minus the mullions you don't have to 

4 rely on an interpretation of can I see, can I

5 not see, depending on how thick the mullion 

6 is, what's the materials of the mullions, 

7 whether it's insulated or not. You don't 

8 have to worry about those kinds of things. 

9 It's just the glass.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

11 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. 

12 There's also another set of scenarios that 

13 are even -- along with up and down 

14 directions, you know, you have a horizontal 

15 and a vertical direction which is not even 

16 included in your slides here.

17 But also, if you use the pictures 

18 and the descriptions in a lot of open cases 

19 you lose part of your visible display because

20 a lot of open cases have a 6- to 12-inch 

21 ridge built up to capture the cold air 

22 falling down.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

2 MR. HON: And then you lose all 

3 that as well. So that would go the reverse 

4 direction. Because if some of these other 

5 areas are discussed like the A scenario on 

6 that you would actually increase the internal

7 display area for that unit.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah?

9 MS. WIDDER: So, just to follow 

10 up on Charlie's point. That is -- so these 

11 are only discussing length. The height 

12 measurement is also addressed in the AHRI 

13 interpretations and pretty clearly in the 

14 diagrams that are in Appendix D.

15 There's also some diagrams that 

16 the Department proposed to include in the CFR

17 that help define H. 

18 And the C + D + E method -- and 

19 actually if you go to scenario 4 it's 

20 actually F + G + H is the Department's 

21 proposal. And that's consistent with the 

22 Department's proposal for height. 
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1 So it would be height is in your 

2 case where there was that either a part of 

3 the air curtain or something that comes up 

4 over the display area you start from that to 

5 what you can see. 

6 And that's consistent with AHRI 

7 that it really is the projected height 

8 dimension. And so part of the reason 

9 Department proposed this for the length 

10 dimension is it's consistent in both 

11 dimensions.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me ask as an 

14 attempt to obtain some clarity, what's the 

15 downside in the Department's proposal CDE? 

16 From the manufacturing perspective. Yes, 

17 Nick.

18 MR. SCHRINER: I believe that --

19 didn't you already address that?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: As long as we 

21 addressed his point. I mean, the Department 

22 is going on the record saying that --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Some percentage of 

2 mullions, whatever.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no. I 

4 mean he's saying that the standard -- we 

5 can't by default --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, yes, right. 

7 Gotcha.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So as long as we 

9 address that issue do we think that this is 

10 the most clear and objective and equal way to

11 go.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Nick.

13 MR. SCHRINER: Another downside 

14 is a manufacturer could have bigger doors 

15 than their actual refrigeration area.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's 4. So you 

17 wouldn't be able to count that. It would be 

18 F + G + H.

19 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. 

20 Door variance -- because if you're fairly 

21 wide door framing, you actually cover more 

22 than the mullion, you would be extended 
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1 beyond the edge of the mullion with your door

2 frame. You can do that, we do in some areas,

3 which would further change the dimensions up 

4 there. Because is it actually the glass, or 

5 is it the mullion?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the glass in 

7 our proposal.

8 MR. HON: And that would include 

9 the framing of the doors becoming a component

10 as well.

11 MS. WIDDER: No, I'll clarify. 

12 It's not the glass. In that example it's the

13 projection of visible area.

14 MR. HON: Straight line?

15 MS. WIDDER: Straight line.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, straight 

17 line.

18 MS. WIDDER: What you can see 

19 through.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

21 MR. HON: Which would include 

22 mullion, glass -- I mean door frames, 
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1 whatever it would be, whatever it is 

2 obstructing the view is straight through.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce.

5 MR. HIERLMEIER: I think what's 

6 challenging is the one that has the really 

7 wide mullion, if they're all the same volume 

8 cases would use the least amount of energy 

9 but would also be the least likely to be able

10 to pass probably because you don't account 

11 for anything in the back wall, bottom, or 

12 ceiling to allow it to have some energy. 

13 So you could wind up sort of an 

14 odd scenario that if manufacturers started 

15 saying we're going to put smaller doors on to

16 save energy you actually can't pass the test 

17 by saving energy because of the back wall and

18 ceiling doesn't get any additional allowance 

19 let's say. So you'd have to be careful with 

20 the formulas, how that would work out.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I'm not sure 

22 we're going to come to agreement. But if you
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1 have ideas, like I said, what I wanted to do 

2 with this when I was thinking last night to 

3 give you some background behind the 

4 Department's thought process. That's why we 

5 drew these diagrams.

6 Ultimately we led to the proposal 

7 that's in the rule today. But if you have 

8 any comments on that we welcome that.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we're seeking 

10 clarity here, to be clear, and not agreements

11 at this point. So, additional thoughts and 

12 any written comments specifically. Bruce?

13 MR. HIERLMEIER: Well, to address 

14 the question I had, would the DOE entertain 

15 sort of a more complex formula where you have

16 a TDA component for energy, but then you have

17 another component for non-TDA space or volume

18 or length? 

19 So that would account -- this guy 

20 says all right -- it's almost like building 

21 two transparent door cases and a solid door 

22 case in that one really big one. So if you 
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1 said, all right, you get this extra component

2 for your solid stuff maybe then it helps 

3 cover unique designs.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Do these designs 

5 happen very often, these odd --

6 (Laughter)

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: It was my caveat 

8 when I presented the slide.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: It doesn't help 

10 you sell product, right? It doesn't maximize

11 use of space.

12 MR. HIERLMEIER: Ice cases are 

13 sort of built like that, but a lot of them 

14 are self-contained when they're built like 

15 that. They have a small door. You open it 

16 up and you can reach. About the only product

17 I've seen.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

19 MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 

20 Store Fixtures. Just one cautionary note. 

21 If you go back to the first case, if we were,

22 I mean just for the sake of discussion, if we
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1 were to eliminate the mullions what would 

2 stop us from also eliminating where there is 

3 no product, basically there is shelf, you 

4 know, for edge of the shelf. 

5 There is no product in there, 

6 right? The edge of the shelf where you have 

7 all the shelves in the display case. There's

8 no product where the shelves are. So you 

9 have a piece of metal that really is not 

10 usable space.

11 Also, in the inside, on the end 

12 panels when you have a glass end panel all 

13 these shelves have their solid area that you 

14 can't display product. So who says that we 

15 cannot eliminate those? 

16 See, it becomes very complicated 

17 trying to calculate these things. It becomes

18 really we have to sit down on a daily basis, 

19 do nothing but these kind of calculations 

20 which is really not the intent of I'm 

21 assuming this standard.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe Sanders would 
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1 like to speak. Joe, welcome. Unmute your 

2 phone and speak clearly.

3 MR. SANDERS: I looked at the 

4 formulas. If these were all solid doors we 

5 would use volume to calculate energy 

6 consumption. Why wouldn't we do the same 

7 thing for glass door remotes? Instead of 

8 going through all this TDA discussion. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah.

10 MS. WIDDER: Well, that's related 

11 -- so the standard, the current standard that

12 we have for remote transparent cases is based

13 on TDA. So, if the Department continues to 

14 regulate based on a TDA metric in the 

15 standard the test procedure must provide a 

16 method for calculating that dimension.

17 MR. SANDERS: I hear you. I'm 

18 listening carefully. But if that's such a 

19 huge discussion point why don't they just 

20 simply switch to volume based upon a formula 

21 for remote transparent door cabinets like we 

22 do for self-contained and like you're doing 
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1 for remote solid door.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think the 

3 simple answer is that could be a way for the 

4 future. That's not going to be a way to fix 

5 all the questions we get now. 

6 Bottom line is we have TDA now 

7 for the current standards and honestly, for 

8 the proposed ones. So we need at least a 

9 method to clearly identify how TDA should be 

10 measured now to the extent it's not already 

11 clear in our regs. And then if we decide to 

12 move to volume in the future we could 

13 consider that.

14 MR. SANDERS: One final comment.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, Joe, go 

16 ahead. 

17 MR. SANDERS: One final comment 

18 and I'll go. And this may be pretty much --

19 if volume is calculated on three dimensions 

20 why don't we -- for glass, and I'm only 

21 talking about glass door cases. Why don't we

22 calculate TDA based on a two-dimensional area
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1 which goes wall to wall, top to bottom as if 

2 you were calculating volume? And forget 

3 about what we're trying to do with mullions. 

4 Just leave TDA as a square footage

5 calculated wall to wall, top to bottom 

6 without the third dimension depth involved.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, my answer 

8 is going to be I do think that's what some 

9 people are doing now. I'm not clear that 

10 that's what -- that isn't what we proposed, 

11 but it has come to our attention that that is

12 what some people are doing now. That's not 

13 what everyone is doing now.

14 MR. SANDERS: We don't make a lot 

15 of these cases, you know, probably next to 

16 about none. But to me that makes the most 

17 logical sense to step from a two-dimensional 

18 calculation which TDA is to a three19 dimensional calculation down the road. So 

20 anyway, that's my comment and thank you very 

21 much. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Joe. 
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1 Thank you, Charlie.

2 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. During 

3 the original proposals, the original review 

4 of these product classes when the first NOPRs

5 were published that was an item of 

6 discussion. But the only thing -- the 

7 problem was there was no database other than 

8 TDA information. And so they went with the 

9 industry standard for the grocery store type 

10 of equipment which is TDA.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean I 

12 think really, I mean one of the reasons we 

13 have said in the past that we went with TDA, 

14 I mean that's kind of the metric you guys use

15 to sell your equipment, visible area, right? 

16 I mean, that's at least our understanding of

17 it. 

18 You're not putting in your 

19 marketing literature refrigerated volume. 

20 It's how much -- or you may be as well, but 

21 you know, it's how much can I see through it.

22 What can I see my product? 
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1 Safeway doesn't really care how 

2 many yogurts you can see. They want to know 

3 -- at least depth-wise. They want to know 

4 from the front of it what is all that my 

5 customer will be able to see and hopefully 

6 purchase. I might have gotten that wrong, 

7 but.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce?

9 MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce from Zero 

10 Zone. Also, Europe was doing TDA at the 

11 time. So when AHRI got going on it is sort 

12 of looking across the pond and what do they 

13 do, and oh, okay. You know, again, not a 

14 great solution but our best solution at the 

15 time.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Neshan.

17 MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 

18 Store Fixtures. You ask what would be 

19 recommended. What should be used at least 

20 for time being would be what was used to 

21 originally come up with the different levels 

22 of energy consumption when it was done in 
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1 2008. I mean, we should continue that which 

2 is basically what you have in case 1 and 

3 which is very also similar. 

4 And I think your calculation in 

5 2008 is a little bit more liberal compared to

6 what AHRI has. Because AHRI has restricted 

7 at least the height from the top and the 

8 bottom. They put some restriction in the 

9 doors. But the length, still this.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: You're saying A.

11 MR. NESHAN: A, correct. Use --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you still 

13 believe it's A in this one?

14 MR. NESHAN: Not this one, no, 

15 no.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: You believe it's 

17 B.

18 MR. NESHAN: No. Let me -- the 

19 way that it was done in 2008, the engineering

20 analysis was the length of the case was used.

21 The L, if I recall in the door cases, 12.7 

22 dimension was used which is A and not the B 
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1 dimension.

2 I mean, you can go, and I have a 

3 copy of it if you want for those who are 

4 interested. The dimension that was used for 

5 calculating, or at least coming up with the 

6 analysis as to what TDA should be. And 

7 dimension A was used.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: It seems like this 

9 is an opportunity to revise that if we wanted

10 to, if you wanted to do it. 

11 I'm wondering if, just to ask 

12 another practical question, is there some 

13 recommendation here that makes it easier for 

14 the industry, that is significantly easier to

15 implement? 

16 MR. NESHAN: Neshan, Southern 

17 Store Fixtures. Yes. As I said use the 2008

18 method of calculation. Also, what is in AHRI

19 standard 1200.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Nick, 

21 you're shaking your head. You agree? Does 

22 that solve your --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not saying 

2 the Department agrees.

3 (Laughter)

4 MR. BROOKMAN: But I'm -- you can 

5 imagine the Department here is looking for 

6 something, I believe, that has a lot of 

7 breadth of application, right? That's going 

8 to meet a lot of different conditions --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is one way.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: -- as they emerge, 

11 right? That's going to -- go ahead.

12 MR. HIERLMEIER: I mean there's 

13 some things that customers go in and out of 

14 favor. We used to build our cases like 

15 scenario 2 and got pushed out of the market 

16 with that design. It just, customers didn't 

17 want to have spaces, you couldn't see through

18 the glass door and all that. So we modified 

19 our design 15 years ago to account for it.

20 But customers change. They may 

21 decide they like this if it saves an extra, 

22 you know, 1 percent on energy. But that's 
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1 what -- some of these would just be customer 

2 driven. There wouldn't be a lot of sales at 

3 least initially because it wouldn't meet the 

4 other customer needs of displaying and 

5 selling food perhaps. 

6 So if you left it as is, some of 

7 the other ones would be less frequent. They 

8 may get out in the marketplace and may have a

9 benefit on their energy because they've got 

10 a big fat mullion. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me go in a 

12 different direction with this. So are any of

13 these proposals, are any of them just much 

14 worse than the others that the industry would

15 not like to see? Charlie.

16 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. Just 

17 basic numbers there. The industry -- we're 

18 not heavily involved in this so I'm an 

19 outsider looking in. We have very, very 

20 little TDA-type equipment other than open 

21 cases. But -- and continuous cases is the 

22 big issue here.
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1 But I'm one that believes that if 

2 we did it in 2008, whether it be A or B, or 

3 CDE, that's where the number was generated 

4 from so just stick with it.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Tim?

6 MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson. For 

7 VCT display cases for supermarkets the 

8 industry wants the first one where the total 

9 display area is maximized.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: A.

11 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. Well, the 

12 first figure where you're not -- you don't 

13 have excessive blocking of the visible 

14 display area.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: And within figure 

16 1.

17 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. They're in 

18 the business of selling food, not necessarily

19 saving energy. They want to sell food. So 

20 we are constantly under pressure to minimize 

21 the mullions as much as possible.

22 Now, I'm not necessarily speaking 
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1 to service over counter equipment or other 

2 things. But for VCT equipment we're always 

3 under pressure to minimize those non-visible 

4 areas.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So then on this 

6 scenario 1 are you an A, B, or CDE advocate?

7 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I think 

8 you need to go to scenario 2 because A and B 

9 are the same.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the idea here 

11 is that when we provide some type of guidance

12 it's going to be applicable to all. 

13 And I realize that 99.5 percent 

14 of the cases may look like this. But is it 

15 fair to have someone do A here where all of 

16 you have A and B the same? Or should it be B

17 where really for typical cases it makes no 

18 difference? It's the same. Your glass is at

19 the edge of your refrigerated volume.

20 But for those who opt to make a 

21 design where your refrigerated volume is 

22 different from the edge of your glass the 
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1 definition of TDA clearly says visible 

2 product area.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce.

4 MR. HIERLMEIER: Actually, none 

5 of our cases that are joined together in the 

6 field are scenario 1 because all the doors 

7 have mullions. So the mullion, the edge of 

8 the door may get very near the edge of the 

9 case, but we'll still -- that glass will 

10 still get inset an inch and a half or so on 

11 each side. 

12 So really scenario 2 is, although 

13 it's drawn a little fat, but that's really 

14 what we see with the edge of the door 

15 typically would go out to A.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So that means it 

17 should be B?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think 

19 your refrigerated volume though is -- right? 

20 I mean, your refrigerated boundary of your 

21 volume, doesn't that match up with --

22 MR. HIERLMEIER: No.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't?

2 MR. HIERLMEIER: Because the door 

3 has to be at the edge of the case and the 

4 glass starts in an inch and a half, inch and 

5 three quarters.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

7 MR. HIERLMEIER: So ours is more 

8 like number 2 with that line pressed up

9 against that black edge of the door.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

11 MR. HIERLMEIER: In the industry 

12 I should say, really. For connected cases.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: B.

14 MR. HIERLMEIER: A. We use A, 

15 but A is closer. It's up against the edge of

16 the door.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Any additional 

20 thoughts on this before we move on? Okay. 

21 Laura, did you want to?

22 MS. ZELINSKI: I would say --
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1 Lauren, AHRI. I would say that I would agree

2 with the A that we currently have. 

3 But if we were going to go away 

4 from that and change some of the calculations

5 I think that the percentage of mullion might 

6 be a good way to go from AHRI's perspective. 

7 You know, to consider that A volume or TDA 

8 that we currently have, but then take away

9 what was overlaying the refrigerated space 

10 and the mullions from inside.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

12 Please.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Laura Barhydt, DOE 

14 enforcement. Two related thoughts.

15 One, everybody laughed pretty 

16 hard at scenario 3 and Ashley drew it more 

17 dramatic to make the point. But we have 

18 actually seen a case with a very large 

19 mullion in the middle. So it's not that 

20 large and it's not those percentages, but 

21 it's not a little line either. So keep that 

22 in mind when you think about in drafting your
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1 comments that that's an extreme case but it's

2 not out of the realm of possibility. It's 

3 not something that's just completely.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I will say we 

5 drew these -- we've seen all of them.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the market 

8 may not like them, but they're there. 

9 MS. BARHYDT: And then the 

10 related thought is that what I'm hearing is a

11 lot of people say we make scenario 1. A fits

12 scenario 1. We should stick with A. 

13 And what we're saying is we agree 

14 most of the market is scenario 1, but it's 

15 not all of the market. And so how should it 

16 be calculated for scenarios 2, 3 and 4? They

17 do exist. And so should it be scenario --

18 option A for all of those scenarios? 

19 I know that that was the 

20 assumption that when this was originally 

21 written was that A and B would be pretty much

22 equal, but they're not in all cases. And so 
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1 what do you do in those cases where they're 

2 not equal?

3 And what -- I think that what 

4 I've heard is that when you drafted it in 

5 2008 and you said A and B are pretty much 

6 equal we're assuming that projected display 

7 area is equal to the length. 

8 But what happens when they're 

9 not? And you're making that assumption. So 

10 how do we interpret projected visible area 

11 where that's not the case?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

13 Additional comments before we move on. 

14 So, really the Department needs 

15 your best thinking in your written comments 

16 here.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, we've kind of 

18 touched on this throughout the day. This is 

19 just a really quick overview.

20 What we did was we bifurcated the 

21 existing test procedures into two appendices,

22 Appendix A and Appendix B. Appendix A will 
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1 be required to be used 30 days after 

2 publication of any test procedure final rule.

3 Appendix B is compliance state of future 

4 standards. So, as Tim likes to call it, 

5 2017-ish. And so just to make that clear.

6 Charlie, do you want to do this 

7 part?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Neshan.

9 MR. NESHAN: Ashley, one question 

10 I have. Obviously the slides that you did 

11 not show. I mean, and this one.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: What number is it, 

13 Neshan?

14 MR. NESHAN: This is 70.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Figure H.

16 MR. NESHAN: Yes, the lower one, 

17 the one that is kind of a semi horizontal.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

19 MR. NESHAN: The way this arrow 

20 is shown, obviously it's not an engineering 

21 drawing, but it seems that that arrow needs 

22 to be pointing to the bottom of the 
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1 transparent product stop and not necessarily 

2 to the middle point. 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's 

4 why we pointed out that that's where it 

5 stops.

6 MS. WIDDER: That's the intent.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

8 MR. NESHAN: Going to the bottom.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

10 MR. NESHAN: Another way of doing 

11 it, to be honest with you, going to the top 

12 and then coming down. Depending how you want

13 to, you know.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's why that's 

15 there. Right? So it's a -- because clearly 

16 that's where it stops.

17 MR. NESHAN: Yes, I know. But 

18 I'm saying that this could also could have 

19 easily been done. This is one area. This is

20 another one.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I got it.

22 MR. NESHAN: Two different ways 
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1 of doing it. Thank you.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

3 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles 

4 Llenza, Department of Energy. Just can you 

5 put that in your comments? Since you made 

6 comments here. Thank you.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, I think 

8 that's all that the Department intended to 

9 cover. Charles Llenza, do you wish to make 

10 closing remarks? 

11 For my part, thank you all. This 

12 was a very productive meeting. We covered a 

13 lot of ground here very efficiently. 

14 Charles.

15 MR. LLENZA: I'm glad that you 

16 guys attended and we appreciate the comments 

17 presented today. 

18 We also want to remind everybody 

19 that written comments are the best for the 

20 Department so that we can document and then 

21 respond to all your comments accordingly.

22 I wanted to provide here on this 
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1 slide the CRE TP web pages and the DOE 

2 contacts. As you can see the web page is up 

3 on the top and the commercial refrigeration 

4 equipment test procedure web page is the 

5 second web page.

6 I can be contacted for commercial 

7 refrigeration issues at that link. And then 

8 Ashley Armstrong's email address is there for

9 contacting her.

10 I also wanted to just go back to 

11 the method of providing comments and remind 

12 everybody that to provide the docket number 

13 and the RIN number, and to use the -- what we

14 have put here on how to submit comments for 

15 the comments for the test procedure.

16 And once again, also to remind 

17 parties that January 13, 2014 is the comment 

18 period closing date. So thanks for 

19 attending. 

20 MR. HIERLMEIER: I had trouble 

21 with the email address --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, it was like 
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1 the difference between --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks 

3 Bruce.

4 MR. LLENZA: If you have any 

5 problems use my email address and just 

6 contact me on any of these and I'll make sure

7 everything is running properly. It should be

8 running properly at this point.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Bruce.

10 MR. HIERLMEIER: Are we going to 

11 have the slides here that are new? Are you 

12 going to email them all to us?

13 MR. LLENZA: They will be posted 

14 as soon as we get back to the office, yes.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So thanks again. 

16 Safe travels to everyone. Hope you make it 

17 home before the snow.

18 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

19 went off the record at 12:52 p.m.)

20

21

22
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137:19 140:4

145:7

anticlimax 180:10

Anwar 2:3 84:21

anybody 7:8 8:5

10:1 44:14 79:15

118:9 161:11

192:19

anymore 36:16

55:11 124:11

136:20

anyway 182:21

211:20

apologies 162:17

apologize 28:21

94:22 185:12

appears 64:11

appendices 157:2

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appendix 46:10

157:4,9,18 159:12

176:1 201:14

224:22,22,22

225:3

applicabilities

157:2

applicability 14:2

164:18 167:15

176:17

applicable 17:22

18:1,9 47:5 62:13

91:3 105:13 150:9

157:5,8 163:11

177:20 193:8

219:12

application 14:8

27:22 45:22 60:3

64:2 88:5 89:21

90:14 91:2 99:17

100:3 101:2

105:12,20 107:5

119:2 124:5

125:10 127:2

132:13 167:11,21

168:1,18,21 169:7

169:13,21 170:3,6

171:7 172:8,11

173:1,4,16 176:5

176:10,17 177:7

177:14 179:5,10

179:13 181:2

216:7

applications 17:10

17:11 123:9 127:9

141:19 143:6

146:3

applied 27:10 47:2

47:9 48:1,8

156:16

applies 20:9 82:15

125:5 169:13,14

apply 47:21 56:9,16

69:15 70:1 74:1

76:10 101:18,19

125:1 127:20

136:10 169:18

177:1 193:6,11

applying 22:7 57:3

158:15

appreciate 4:21,22

38:5 49:14 180:4

227:16

approach 181:1

appropriate 135:11

138:12

approval 15:16

120:18

approved 12:11

area 32:21 57:2,8

60:6,7,14 61:15

61:22 62:4,5,12

63:21 186:9 187:4

187:8,20 188:2,8

189:1,13 192:20

194:15,19 198:1

201:7 202:4

203:15 204:13

208:13 210:22

212:15 218:9,14

220:2 224:7,10

226:19

areas 29:6 139:3

186:17 189:4,17

194:1,7,20 196:8

200:1 201:5 204:2

219:4

argue 52:7 196:22

199:9

argument 58:10

115:5,6

arguments 8:22

ARI 12:19 151:13

163:10 173:10

Armstrong 1:17

4:14,15,16 6:14

6:14 29:20 30:12

30:18,22 33:15

39:5 40:4 41:4

42:7 43:15 44:2

48:16 49:2,17,21

50:4 52:1 72:22

74:8,15 76:2 77:1

77:16 80:9 82:12

85:6 86:16 87:7

87:12,17,20 88:2

88:10,15,20 89:4

89:8,10 95:3,8,13

96:2,10 97:1,4,11

97:13,14,16

101:14,17 102:11

102:18 103:7

106:10,17 108:1

108:13,19 109:3

110:19 112:2,4

113:1,9 114:5,15

114:20 117:6

118:16 124:12,19

125:2,16 127:22

128:13 129:16

130:7,13 131:5

132:3,19 133:9

143:14,16,18

144:6 148:13,19

148:21 154:6

155:8 156:12

158:22 159:3,6

160:20 171:12,15

177:16,18 178:4

179:8,15,18 183:8

191:11 193:10,21

194:5,12 196:3,18

198:11 199:7,21

201:1 202:12,20

203:3,8,16 204:6

204:16,20 205:3

205:21 207:7

210:2 211:7

212:11 214:12,16

216:1,9 219:10

220:18 221:1,6,10

221:18 223:4,7

224:17 225:15,18

226:3,7,9,14,21

228:22

Armstrong's 228:8

Arneg 2:1 6:1

196:13

Arneg's 197:18

arose 149:8

arrow 225:19,21

Ashley 1:17 4:14,16

6:14 29:17 32:5

41:3 44:6 48:14

72:21 96:17 97:13

106:9 112:3 132:2

143:15 163:2,5

183:6 192:3

222:16 225:9

228:8

ASHRAE 11:21

12:4,7,11,21

24:16 45:8,14

122:11 160:1

165:4 166:6,17

172:17 173:3,7,22

174:3 183:21

184:13 185:1

aside 134:16

asked 77:19 106:11

asking 78:1 114:15

118:7 129:9 179:8

194:21

asks 76:5

aspect 38:2

ASRAC 148:22

associated 26:1

151:22

assume 74:11,16

77:15 183:12

188:15

assuming 51:17

79:2 107:12

208:21 224:6

assumption 223:20

224:9

ASTM 46:20 47:15

attached 177:11

attempt 202:14

attempting 26:5

attended 227:16

attending 228:19

attention 121:10

211:11

attributes 15:1

automatic 138:3,5

139:1 154:14

157:14 158:4,7

automatically

111:13 153:5

available 11:6

127:10 185:21

Avenue 1:12

avenues 149:9

average 87:2 90:3

90:19 91:9,18,20

92:2,8,12 96:12

100:10,14,18,19

102:10 103:4

104:14 150:9

168:2,5,7,8

169:22 170:18

172:13

avoid 199:5

aware 31:1 104:12

B

B 129:11 157:18

158:14,18 159:12

176:1 186:14

187:18 198:3

199:9,10,11,14

200:2 214:17,22

218:2 219:6,8,16

219:16 220:17

221:13 223:21

224:5,22 225:3

back 8:20 15:19

22:1 28:22 49:15

49:18 50:11 52:21

53:11,15,17,19,22

54:3 55:9 57:20

61:6 82:7 85:1

110:9 119:9

129:16 132:4

161:20 190:9

193:9 198:18

205:11,17 207:21

228:10 229:14

backed 111:12

113:6,8

background 152:3

167:18 169:12

206:3

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bad 36:22 57:22

badge 109:21

bags 192:14

Baltimore 4:11

bar 18:18 72:18

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Barhydt 2:8 222:13

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base 19:19,22 26:4

26:18 124:2

based 27:18 32:1

32:17 55:6 60:6

82:21 97:22 99:8

138:10 209:12,14

209:20 210:22

bases 19:15

basic 27:12,13,19

28:8 120:6 138:10

153:17,18,20

154:3 168:8,14,22

169:9,14 170:7,12

172:13 175:2

217:17

basically 13:20

20:20 48:14 79:2

82:8,11 107:3

120:11 125:7

143:22 153:19

178:16 208:3

214:2

basis 47:7 120:19

208:18

bathroom 161:12

Bauman 1:17 6:6,6

28:20,20 29:2,12

29:18 30:20 41:9

41:12,18 42:18

43:22 44:5,8

48:18,19 49:11,20

50:2 60:18,18

74:21 79:8 80:6

becoming 70:15

204:9

beginning 161:2

183:9

belief 133:2,4,6

believe 42:16 73:15

73:21 103:18

108:6 132:19

147:8 160:11

175:10 180:7

202:18 214:13,16

216:6

believes 63:22

151:21 218:1

belongs 27:19

benefit 195:11

217:9

Berkeley 2:9 6:21

best 8:19 74:3

126:8 136:11

140:1 191:18

193:14 213:14

224:15 227:19

better 5:6 40:18

52:2 59:6 61:16

62:2 80:10 116:14

174:22 180:6,22

beyond 144:15

198:10 204:1

bifurcated 224:20

big 188:14,14,17

196:19 206:22

217:10,22

bigger 203:14

bins 22:14

bit 9:15 10:6 11:15

16:3 28:22 37:9

45:4 58:16 63:19

68:10 75:8 119:7

150:5 174:14

183:17 187:12

188:4 191:21

214:5

black 69:5 221:9

blocking 141:4

218:13

blue 67:11,11

board 132:20 159:8

body 121:1,5

146:11

books 81:10 157:10

181:4

border 62:9

bottom 58:22 154:5

205:11 210:6

211:1,5 214:8

225:22 226:8

boundary 186:12

186:22 187:9

188:21 189:10

220:20

bounds 173:3

box 30:4 31:2 92:7

boxes 10:21 121:14

brainstorming

198:17

breadth 216:7

break 7:17,20

106:4 109:3,6,7

109:13 110:13

153:20 161:8,9,11

161:15

breaking 64:18

Brenda 11:12

bridge 118:7

brief 7:6,9

bring 66:9

brings 94:4

broad 17:14 51:17

183:18

broadly 47:4

Brookman 1:12,15

3:13 4:3,10 5:9

6:22 16:10 20:12

20:16 21:19 23:19

24:1,18 25:3 26:7

26:11 27:4 32:14

33:18,22 34:3,6

34:11 35:10,16,19

36:11 37:13 40:20

41:6 45:17 53:4

53:15 55:21 56:5

62:15 63:13,16

70:11 71:5,11

72:21 74:20 76:3

76:16 77:8 78:10

79:7 82:5 83:1

84:18 89:2,14

94:9 96:16 97:5

97:13,15 98:16

100:7 102:16

103:22 104:4,7

106:1,15 108:10

108:16 109:1,5,10

110:10,21 111:22

112:3 114:10

115:13 116:1,4,8

117:2 119:3

121:17 123:4

125:3 126:2,19

127:15 128:10

129:10 130:4,9

131:1,7 132:2

133:10 136:15

137:4 138:14

139:10,17 140:3

140:21 141:8

142:17 143:3,15

145:13 146:6,15

147:7 148:4,11,17

148:20 149:2

151:4 153:7 154:2

154:11 161:16,21

162:16,22 164:15

164:21 165:12,15

165:20 167:9

174:1 175:18

178:2 179:20

180:2,9,12,15

181:7,11,19,22

183:1,4 190:5

195:1 197:3

199:20 200:10

201:8 202:13

203:1,6,12 205:4

206:9 207:4,9,18

208:22 209:9

210:15 211:22

213:8,16 214:10

215:8,20 216:4,10

217:11 218:5,10

218:15 219:5

220:3,16 221:13

221:17,19 222:11

224:12 225:8,12

227:2,7 229:2,9

229:15

Bruce 1:19 5:15

98:16 111:1

115:13 123:6

126:10 127:8

132:12 138:15,16

145:16 153:8,9

156:20 192:10

195:1,2 197:3

205:4 206:12

213:8,9 220:3

229:3,9

Bruce's 125:5

BTU 166:18,19

BTUs 167:2

bucket 117:14

buffet 18:18 73:14

build 75:14 137:1

216:14

building 1:11 4:9

109:22 136:19

206:20

built 37:3 79:9

144:11 155:14

156:10 200:21

207:13,14

bullet 116:11

business 218:18

butcher 78:19

butchered 96:18

button 118:2

buy 153:12,13

bypassing 131:17

Byron 1:20 6:4

23:19

C

C 186:16 187:22

188:2 199:18

201:18

cabinet 26:14 41:1

42:2 53:16,18,22

72:16,17,19

107:17 121:1,3,5

150:7,11

cabinets 115:20

116:16 182:12,19

209:21

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calculate 77:20

81:11 187:13,18

189:17 208:17

209:5 210:22

calculated 41:22

185:18 186:11

191:19 193:16

196:7 210:19

211:5 223:16

calculating 55:8

188:20 209:16

211:2 215:5

calculation 23:8,14

41:1,5,10,16 42:9

193:17 211:18,19

214:4 215:18

calculations 164:9

208:19 222:4

call 161:13 190:18

225:4

capability 117:14

117:18 123:22

capable 20:4 66:2,6

86:19 91:11 92:13

93:6,14,18,20

98:8,14 105:4

116:12,14,21

172:1,5,14 177:6

capacities 51:5

capacity 21:14

25:13 42:20,22

capture 200:21

captured 142:16

152:2

care 42:14 100:17

146:5 213:1

careful 205:19

carefully 63:4

209:18

carried 166:14

167:7

carries 165:5

case 26:16 48:4

53:9 54:7 55:7

63:11 71:20 83:21

86:13,14 87:9

88:6,13 99:22

105:1,7,10,13

107:22 117:5

118:14,15,20,21

119:1 121:10,11

122:8 124:8

132:22 140:14

145:10 146:11

150:10 151:21

152:18 153:5,11

153:14,18,19

154:2,19 157:16

164:6 166:20

170:13,15 176:4

176:19 177:5,11

177:12,15,19

180:19,19 181:18

182:18 184:1

186:8 188:4,5

189:2 191:7 194:4

195:11,12,16

199:1,9 202:2

206:22 207:21

208:7 214:2,20

220:9 221:3

222:18 223:1

224:11

cases 22:2 29:7 31:3

31:4 32:13 46:2,3

46:4 55:20 56:11

56:12,12 60:4

99:4,19 118:12

123:21 125:6,7,11

126:1,14,21

127:18 128:11

131:3,15 132:5,6

137:9,12 138:8

171:3 176:18

180:20 181:3,14

182:3,5,14 192:6

193:6,7 195:6,9

199:10 200:18,20

205:8 206:21

207:12 209:12

210:21 211:15

214:21 216:14

217:21,21 218:7

219:14,17 220:5

221:12 223:22

224:1

categories 38:19

116:5

categorization

28:13

category 107:20

cause 94:6 150:17

150:18 161:3

causes 150:4

causing 39:10

126:16

cautionary 207:20

caveat 128:2 159:6

207:7

CC&E 119:22

CDE 202:15 218:3

219:6

CDEC 151:15

166:2,7

ceiling 205:12,18

cell 8:14

cellars 96:19,22

97:5

center 69:15 83:16

certain 12:8 14:5,6

14:8,10 15:1

24:14,14 51:16

83:21 120:5 144:7

146:1 155:13

169:14 171:18

185:18 197:19,20

certainly 116:15,18

127:5 133:5 134:5

145:17 165:9

167:1,6

certification 14:18

81:3 164:19

certified 27:15 28:8

105:6 128:12

163:8,22 164:7

170:2

certify 30:6 107:9

159:12 168:13,18

cetera 130:3

CFR 19:9 20:15

34:19 45:10 47:10

56:9,21 64:17

65:15 68:11 85:18

173:13 201:16

challenging 205:6

change 45:7,10

94:15 112:18

115:11 142:15

174:11 191:2,3

204:3 216:20

222:4

changed 123:19

changes 51:1 111:6

144:18

changing 63:19

64:15 106:12

112:20

Charity 96:17

Charles 1:21 3:17

4:6 9:18,19 10:3

227:3,9,14

Charlie 1:19 5:19

16:14 20:16,17

24:9 26:11,12

27:3 33:12 36:21

37:14,15,16 39:13

45:4 50:18 52:12

55:13 57:10 60:5

60:19 62:16,17

68:16 69:9 70:12

75:7 78:7,10 94:9

94:10 107:11

114:12 117:9

144:9 155:10

174:1,2 175:6

200:10,11 203:19

212:1,2 217:15,16

219:7 225:6

Charlie's 60:21

61:14 74:22

201:10

check 161:13 165:6

chef 19:15,19,22

26:4

chef's 26:17

chest 199:13

chilled 17:6

chiller 98:4

Chillers 97:1,2

choose 103:13,14

153:12

circuits 74:7

circumstance 69:10

clarification 19:3

27:8 29:5 30:21

35:21 41:15 63:22

108:7 122:16

149:8 151:8

157:21 159:16

163:4 171:5,13

172:3 183:14

clarifications 4:1

7:19 15:6 16:18

16:20 119:15

163:6 167:20

clarifies 17:21 65:1

155:4

clarify 19:12 34:17

46:15 49:1 50:1,5

54:7 56:19 59:5

64:14 78:4 90:14

92:5 94:18 96:1

96:14 108:15

152:11 164:9,14

172:7 182:21

184:2,18 204:11

clarifying 133:4

167:11

clarity 68:12

202:14 206:10

class 27:18 28:16

32:2,8 67:6 91:5

168:17

classes 67:16 94:7

104:16 105:5,6

115:19 116:13

212:4

classification 20:19

21:1 38:9 70:5

78:12 90:9

classifying 59:1

clean 37:3

clear 12:9 31:6

32:10 34:2 40:14

46:1 50:6 55:9

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183:17 194:6

203:10 206:10

210:11 211:9

225:5

clearly 31:7 33:4

201:13 209:2

210:9 220:1

226:15

clears 68:9

close 8:4 15:18

196:14,15

closed 22:13 30:2,5

30:7,19 31:3,4,13

31:15 32:13 45:20

46:2,3,3 56:11,11

56:17,17,21,21,22

57:6 63:20 66:17

67:3,9,12,14,15

68:5 70:2,3 78:17

83:20 85:22 86:1

153:6 155:18

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closely 184:22

185:2

closer 221:15

closes 10:19

closest 168:2

closing 4:5 8:4 23:1

227:10 228:18

coated 142:4,5,13

143:11 144:2,10

144:21,22 145:10

coating 54:4 142:8

code 136:5,9

codes 134:2,9

136:21

codification 147:15

codifications

120:12

codified 15:7 46:15

codify 16:20

coffee 109:16,20

Coffee's 110:1

coil 143:11,11

144:2

coils 75:4 142:4,4,5

142:13,13 144:10

144:21 145:7,8

cold 98:18 99:2,5,7

200:21

colder 174:14 175:9

176:8

Collin 2:4 4:2 6:18

54:19 100:7

119:12

color 67:11

column 69:16 85:19

combined 88:8

come 15:20 74:18

80:17 108:20

121:21 122:3,5

135:15 137:9

146:17 147:10

156:17 186:20

205:22 211:11

213:21

comes 36:14 39:21

158:16 187:10

202:3

coming 4:18 73:16

76:4 81:6 154:13

189:20 215:5

226:12

comment 10:19

11:14 15:17,18

20:8,9 24:20,21

25:17,19 28:17,18

33:8 34:9 35:13

36:18 40:21 44:6

68:12 80:7 82:7

94:8 102:1 105:15

105:16 106:2

110:15 114:11

115:14 121:14

127:16 130:1

131:10 141:9

149:10 155:7

164:17 165:2

173:14 176:11

181:4 190:6,7

210:14,17 211:20

228:17

commentary 110:5

comments 8:20

9:13 10:14 11:8

15:19 16:11 31:7

34:7 35:16,17

37:14 38:6 40:5

40:11,12 42:5

43:12,16 45:18

50:9,17 56:1,2

60:3 62:16 63:15

76:13 80:14 88:13

89:15 100:6

102:19 103:18

106:4 108:8

121:15,18,18

123:4 125:5 126:6

126:7 127:15

130:18 131:8

138:14 140:4,21

142:17,18 145:14

146:15 147:7

151:4 153:7 162:9

162:10 164:15,16

164:21 175:20

176:22 180:16,22

183:10 206:8,12

223:1 224:13,15

227:5,6,16,19,21

228:11,14,15

commercial 1:3 4:6

10:9 11:18 12:17

12:18 13:11 14:18

15:2 16:22 17:2

17:15,19 18:2,4

18:20 19:13,16

20:1 21:8 25:22

26:9 27:12,14

28:14 31:12 34:21

48:13 64:1,4,6,8

64:15,19,20 65:8

65:10,11,20,21

66:11,13 67:4,17

67:18,20,22,22

68:7,8,14,14 70:1

71:21 75:14 77:13

79:3 83:10,17

90:20 91:10,22

92:13,17,18,18

93:1,4,8,11,16

95:17 96:19,21

97:3,7,9 104:10

104:10,13,21,21

105:8,9,19,20

119:22 152:16

168:13,15 169:15

186:21 188:6

192:6 228:3,6

common 69:8,10

70:16 127:19

commonly 71:14

Company 1:19

compare 195:8

compared 214:5

comparison 27:16

compartment 13:2

69:22 72:13 77:6

81:17,18,22 82:1

85:1 91:20 93:17

93:19

compartment's

70:17

compartments

65:13,18 66:1

69:7,20 75:10

83:12 85:11 93:5

93:13

compatible 138:12

competitors 195:6

complete 8:13

72:17

completed 174:5

completely 121:6

122:1 145:19

146:20 223:3

complex 206:15

compliance 4:19

14:9 27:16 31:20

31:22 101:7 102:3

158:19 170:17

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excluded 98:9

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existing 94:1 121:8

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expanded 25:18,20

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expecting 114:2

expense 139:6

explain 29:13 74:2

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explanation 137:21

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explicit 35:8 39:1

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explicitly 46:15

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extent 29:17 100:5

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exterior 54:6

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factory-installed

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66:19,20 68:3

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49:15,16 101:1

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floor 87:8 110:2,3

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front 57:17,21 61:6

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grills 141:17 142:2

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head 99:20 215:21

headings 85:19,20

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hinged 35:5 38:11

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illuminated 140:12

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illumination 152:20

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incidence 47:18

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inconsistency 99:6

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indicate 50:15

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information 4:5 7:5

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initial 12:1 73:7

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inlays 187:11

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insert 9:10

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inside 31:16 41:21

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install 131:16

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instances 137:11

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instructions 147:22

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insulated 75:18

192:15 195:20

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integral 121:3,11

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integrated 30:3

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intent 33:5,6 52:2

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irrespective 101:21

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kilowatt 163:17,18

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labs 23:18

language 50:14

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129:1 178:10,12

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large 17:13 63:7

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Lauren 2:5 6:2

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Lawrence 2:9 6:21

laws 136:19

lawsuits 134:14

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learn 155:15

learned 155:21

learning 155:14

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leave 39:11 211:4

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share 8:17 75:3,9

76:6 77:5

shared 75:22

sharing 75:5 81:20

82:2

she'll 9:14 30:15

Shebik 1:23 76:5

179:22 180:4,11

180:14

sheet 46:22

shelf 71:2,5 72:1,4

76:20 77:14

153:13,13 208:3,4

208:6

shelves 71:21

153:11 208:7,8,13

ship 30:3,4

shipped 28:2,7,9

124:6,7 138:6

shipping 117:3

shop 78:19

shortly 106:3

show 97:12,17

185:14 188:9

199:5 225:11

showing 22:2

192:17

shown 22:5 225:20

shows 186:6,8

side 22:5 58:12

66:11 67:21 88:21

88:22 182:15

198:5 220:11

sidebar 8:15

sides 79:12 192:15

sideways 197:19,21

197:22

signage 120:22

significant 167:1,7

significantly 215:14

signs 120:21

silent 8:15

similar 21:8 28:9

42:11 74:22 92:19

122:7 132:16

193:13 214:3

similarly 18:1 23:3

56:6 89:19 92:15

163:20

simple 210:3

simplify 81:9

simplifying 118:16

simply 140:17

209:20

simulators 159:20

160:2,12

single 65:17 79:16

80:1 82:1 85:1

113:11

singular 30:13

sit 208:18

sitting 49:12

situation 82:9

139:13

situations 199:5

Sixty-five 52:13

sizable 134:21

size 62:20,21 63:5,6

134:11 177:5

sized 131:22

sizing 177:3,10

skip 10:3

skipped 9:22

sliced 78:22

slicers 146:22

slide 11:11 16:2

17:21 18:12 29:22

30:9 34:9 35:8

37:18 64:22 65:4

77:12 85:17 94:3

104:9 110:14

116:11 130:14,16

130:22 143:10

155:3 167:17

176:14 178:11

207:8 228:1

slide's 96:3

slides 16:17 21:10

21:11 22:1 120:7

161:4,5 167:11,19

185:12,14 189:19

200:16 225:10

229:11

sliding 35:6 37:18

38:12 40:2,16

44:13,20 53:11

193:9

slightly 66:20 175:9

small 46:10 98:22

126:22 132:14

135:18,21 207:15

smaller 63:1,12

189:8 205:15

smiling 49:13

smoothly 120:16

snow 229:17

software 9:9,13

solar 46:22

sold 26:13,17 29:9

65:17 132:6

solely 121:8

solid 46:3 50:22

51:6,21 53:19

55:1 56:11,12,17

56:21,22 57:14,19

58:4,22 59:16

61:6 62:2,6 63:20

67:12,13,15 68:4

68:5,20 69:6 70:3

70:8 71:1,2,5 72:4

86:1,4 153:3

157:14 206:21

207:2 208:13

209:4 210:1

solidness 57:20

solution 213:14,14

Solutions 1:16 4:10

solve 215:22

somebody 136:6

198:13

someplace 124:8

somewhat 117:7,8

138:18 145:16

soon 229:14

sorry 70:10 81:17

97:14 126:5

178:20 180:11

sort 63:18 65:1,4

122:2 137:15

145:21 168:10

197:17 205:13

206:15 207:13

213:11

sorts 141:3

sounds 39:9 179:2

Southern 1:21 5:18

21:22 25:4 32:16

53:6 83:2 86:11

118:11 143:4

148:6 165:1 166:5

181:9 192:4

207:19 213:17

215:16

space 31:14 35:2

43:10,20 82:11

132:14 189:9

197:14 206:17

207:11 208:10

222:9

spaces 69:2 75:5

216:17

span 94:7 104:16

128:14

spans 107:1

speak 8:10,11 41:19

106:15 119:4,5

125:11,20 126:4

156:20 162:2,10

179:21 196:11

209:1,2

speaking 129:11

218:22

speaks 171:18

special 21:1

specific 13:12 14:10

15:2 19:19 22:16

62:4 99:19 115:21

120:3,8 131:8

143:6 149:5 150:3

152:5,7 159:19

160:1 180:21

specifically 57:11

74:16 114:6

158:11 180:19

206:12

specifications 35:14

specifics 23:15

specified 100:18

140:15 142:6

160:13 168:3

169:6 172:17

173:2 176:10

specifies 55:1

specify 22:10 23:5

23:21 64:19

151:14 169:2

spectral 51:17

spelled 130:12

spend 123:11 139:1

139:8

spent 131:19

split 62:12

spring 16:6

square 211:4

stabilization 122:13

122:17,21 160:4

160:15 172:16

173:2

stabilized 160:10

stakeholder 149:9

Stakeholders

159:18

stand 18:11 19:20

19:22 26:4,5,18

198:4

standard 11:22

12:19,20,21 13:1

14:4 32:1,9 39:22

40:1 47:8,15,18

48:11 60:5,9

65:16 82:15 101:9

111:3 130:6

137:13 151:17

155:1 163:10,12

165:4 166:17

173:8 175:10

176:7 190:16,17

191:1,4,8 199:10

203:4 208:21

209:11,11,15

212:9 215:19

standards 12:8

17:17,20 18:10,16

19:2,4,7,9,10

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81:9 85:18 89:22

90:17,18 93:10

97:20 100:17

101:8,19 102:4

103:6,6,10 112:19

112:21 113:2,13

114:2 154:12

157:7 158:19

159:11,14 163:12

163:15,20 183:21

183:22,22 184:1

191:15,22 210:7

225:4

standpoint 26:3

stands 130:1 131:6

Starr 2:2 6:10,10

36:12 113:17,17

115:16 116:3,7

126:20,20 133:11

133:11,20 134:7

134:17 136:3

144:19,19

start 4:13 5:11,11

7:2 11:15 59:1

122:17,20 154:15

154:20,21 158:15

161:22 186:4

190:8 202:4

started 195:3

205:14

starting 51:12

starts 160:21 221:4

state 122:13 138:6

148:18 160:6,7

172:16 225:3

stated 163:18

statement 10:2

statements 3:11

7:10 8:6 10:2

155:13

states 12:4 136:19

149:14 151:10,16

160:5 192:7

static 122:1

station 192:13

status 140:13

statute 12:14

stay 193:18

steady 122:13

160:6,7 172:16

steak 26:19

stems 119:19

step 9:22 10:3

28:21 132:4

183:14 211:17

Steve 82:6 136:16

Steven 1:20 6:8

82:5 136:15

stick 218:4 223:12

stickler 51:10

stop 208:2 226:1

stops 226:5,16

storage 70:20

107:16 192:12

store 1:21 5:18

21:22 25:4 32:16

53:7 83:3 86:11

118:12 124:2

127:11 132:15

137:1 143:5 148:6

165:2 166:6

181:10 192:4

207:20 212:9

213:18 215:17

stores 17:6 123:10

127:9 135:22,22

storing 95:20

straight 196:17

204:14,15,16

205:2

straps 141:11

stringency 59:22

125:8 191:14

stringent 51:21

124:22

strip 123:8 132:15

strongly 125:20,21

struggle 175:5

stuff 9:18 135:1,6

136:5,8 166:12

207:2

subject 18:22 19:2

27:17 32:8 73:9

84:7 97:19 101:9

subjective 198:12

submission 60:2

submit 11:8 42:5

50:9 54:12 100:6

102:18 103:18

108:8 130:18

164:1 228:14

submitted 101:7

190:13

subsequent 167:6

167:19

substantially 63:11

subtract 191:6

successful 9:4

suction 99:21

sudden 53:18 55:10

146:4

suddenly 51:20

sufficiency 68:13

sufficient 39:2

100:6

sufficiently 119:11

162:12

suggest 58:6 139:11

suggestion 176:21

suggestions 54:12

174:22

Suharno 2:3 84:21

84:21

sum 186:16 188:1

189:4

summary 7:10

10:14 13:20,21

summer 14:16

119:20

sunlight 47:1 51:9

supermarkets

218:7

supplemental 121:8

146:9

supplied 99:9

support 63:9

136:20

supposed 43:6

109:14

sure 8:7 35:22

51:22 77:22 82:20

94:8 106:12 144:4

148:14 149:4

178:7 198:15

205:21 229:6

surface 61:15 63:7

Surprise 44:6

sustain 109:18

sweat 137:8 145:20

switch 85:1 118:15

118:20 152:13

157:15 209:20

switches 111:13

system 10:17 61:2,3

73:21 75:2,3,22

76:7,12 98:20,22

99:3,7 116:19

117:5 137:2 138:4

144:11 147:19

150:7,22 151:1

152:14,19 158:8

systems 75:18 76:1

76:7,12 104:14

142:20 143:1,7,7

146:9 149:13,21

158:5,12

T

table 49:13 65:16

73:14,14 85:18

90:17,18 91:8

tables 18:18,18,18

take 7:17 24:21

28:19 33:9 37:2

38:9 42:9,14

78:14 106:4 109:5

127:12 132:4

161:14 178:20

179:15 222:8

taken 92:4 185:13

talk 37:7 43:4 65:2

88:2 110:12 183:6

talking 24:1 43:8

43:17 60:12 62:3

88:4 119:15

126:22 160:22

193:7 196:16

210:21

tampering 141:13

task 81:5

TDA 41:5,10 55:8,9

55:11 161:4,5

163:6 183:6,11,13

185:8,17,19 186:5

188:20 191:7,13

191:17,18,19

193:16,22 194:20

195:4,8,15 196:7

196:8 206:16

209:8,13,14 210:6

210:9,22 211:4,18

212:8,10,13

213:10 215:6

220:1 222:7

TDA-type 217:20

TDEC 151:15

166:2

technical 26:3

59:11

technically 57:16

57:18 107:19

teleconference 2:1

tell 49:19 52:9

74:17 80:20 81:12

81:14 85:7 117:22

196:1

telling 87:19 102:22

112:5

temp 75:17 84:22

85:2,2 113:4,5,7

114:21 115:10,12

116:21,22 118:12

118:14

temperature 13:13

13:14 17:10,11

66:22 67:1,6,16

68:6 72:3 77:9,11

79:17 80:1 83:22

84:2,3,15 86:14

86:18,19,21 88:6

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92:10,11,21 93:9

94:6,12 95:4,6

97:18 98:1,2,8,15

99:17,22 100:1,2

100:3,10,12 101:3

101:11,21 102:13

103:11 104:19

105:12,17,18,21

111:4,5,8,14

112:7,9,10,11

113:16 115:18

116:17,20 119:2

129:2,4,8 140:11

140:22 147:12

150:8,9,12,14

160:4,13 167:12

167:21 168:1,2,3

168:5,8,16,19,21

169:5,7,13,17,20

169:22 170:1,3,7

170:10,19 171:8

171:19 172:1,5,9

172:12,13,22

173:1,5,16 175:2

176:4,5,6,7,10,18

177:6,8,12,14

178:1,14,15 179:5

179:11,14 181:2

temperature-wise

84:13

temperatures 17:6

20:5 26:19 66:21

70:20 75:9,16

82:3 85:12 86:7

87:1,2 88:17

89:19,20 90:8

91:9 92:12 96:11

96:12 98:6 101:6

104:15,15 108:4

111:11 114:14

128:15,21,22

159:17 166:11

167:4 182:4,7

templates 81:3

temporary 22:12

22:22

temps 70:15 111:21

128:12,16 129:14

130:6

tense 194:13

term 31:10 35:14

terminology 56:18

127:19

terms 14:5 56:15

86:2 90:14,15

163:17 167:1

177:3 182:13

185:17

test 1:3 3:19 4:1,3,6

4:17 7:15,19 8:2

10:9,11 11:17

12:1,6,10,13,15

12:17,18,22 13:3

13:6,7,8,9,16,18

14:2,8,10,13 15:3

15:10 16:18 17:21

18:1,5,8,12,15,21

22:4,7,10,14,19

23:5,5,10,17

24:10,13,16 27:9

28:1 29:13 30:6

32:3 45:7,22

46:14,15,18,21

47:8 48:4,7,22

49:1,9 52:8 72:14

73:9,16 74:17

86:13,19 87:9

88:14 89:21 90:4

90:22 91:19,22

92:3,4 96:7 97:20

98:6,7,7,21 99:1,2

99:8,15,18 100:20

101:1,5 102:12

103:5 107:7,8

111:7 112:6,10,14

119:16 120:3,10

121:12 122:12,20

123:3 124:13

129:18,19 130:5

130:11 133:8

137:20 139:19

140:9,19 141:7,15

142:11 143:2

145:17,18 146:14

147:3,17 148:1

149:14,18,19

150:1,14,19 151:2

151:9,12 152:4,10

152:21 153:16

155:17,19 156:7

156:22 157:13,19

158:8,12 159:9,17

159:19,20 160:2

160:12 163:2,8,9

163:21 164:7,14

164:19 165:3

169:18,19 170:1

170:16 171:6,20

171:22 172:4,19

173:9,12 176:15

184:6,9,21,22

205:16 209:15

224:21 225:2

228:4,15

tested 13:13 18:5

18:12,21 27:17

28:7 32:3 48:11

74:12 90:10 97:18

98:14 101:4 105:5

111:5 114:8

124:14 126:17

127:18 129:2

133:1 138:12

139:5 143:12,13

144:3 152:19

153:14 156:13

158:10 170:12

175:15

tester 139:18

testing 4:19 11:19

22:3 52:21 86:12

87:10 92:10 112:9

112:16 121:12

122:14 127:20

129:13 137:20

141:15 142:3

143:8 146:14

147:3 149:14

152:2 153:8

154:16,20,21

166:8 172:18

184:16

tests 102:10 112:15

text 50:8,10

thank 5:9 16:13

21:18 27:3 34:4

36:9 37:11,13

53:4 56:4,5 62:15

63:14 74:19 94:12

96:16 103:21

111:22 115:14

140:3 148:16

159:4 165:10,20

167:8 180:14

183:3 211:20,22

212:1 222:11

224:12 227:1,2,6

227:11

thanks 5:8 6:22 7:1

16:14 27:4 30:20

119:13 137:6

180:12 228:18

229:2,15

thea 15:17

theft 141:12

theoretically 51:14

thermally 69:3

80:11 81:16

thermostat 171:4,9

171:16,21 172:21

176:3 180:20

181:15,17

thermostats 176:19

thick 200:5

thickness 198:20

199:2

thing 62:17 72:9

75:12 107:18

111:2 115:22

122:2 127:2

129:18 134:17

137:16 164:4

174:8 177:19,22

184:14 209:7

212:6

things 5:5 11:10

18:6 40:17 43:14

45:2 58:2 68:9

72:1 82:17 85:21

86:3,6 96:8

135:22 136:10

138:19 144:20

145:22 161:1

173:17 198:2

200:8 208:17

216:13 219:2

think 9:17 27:5

29:6,18 34:1 40:5

40:12 41:2,14,19

42:19,20 44:8,11

44:11,13,18,20

52:1,4 53:2 54:15

54:21 55:3 59:6

60:2 61:11,13,17

62:6,8 72:6 73:5

75:1 77:4 78:11

78:12 80:13 89:16

94:3 95:5 103:14

110:12,19,21

114:5 117:7

119:10 121:17

127:17 129:17

131:8,18 144:7,20

145:3 154:6,7

162:3 173:19

174:19,19 179:21

185:8 188:2 190:1

192:19 195:3,19

196:3 199:6,21

203:9 205:5 210:2

211:8 212:12

214:4 219:7

220:18 222:5,22

224:3 226:3 227:7

thinking 44:15

47:20 109:12

206:2 224:15

third 211:6

thought 94:11

111:3 129:14

130:9 148:7

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thousands 132:17

132:17

three 19:4 36:2

89:19 108:12

186:10 188:19

210:19 211:18

221:5

three-shelf 153:19

threshold 198:19

thumbs 25:1

tiebreaker 48:14

tied 157:7 158:18

Tiedeman 2:3 6:12

6:12

till 155:2 160:5

Tim 1:16 5:13 72:5

116:8,9 125:3

127:4 131:9 132:9

133:5,16 135:19

175:21 178:6

180:5 182:11

190:8,10 198:17

218:5,6 225:4

time 4:22 8:10,11

8:18 20:11 45:15

99:4,10 109:14,19

110:12 144:12

149:15 152:7

155:15 156:8,8

157:3,8 195:4

213:11,15,20

timeline 3:15 7:13

9:20 16:3

times 42:12 53:9

171:8,16

tint 51:14

tinting 51:13

today 4:8 5:2 8:3

16:4 82:13,20

101:16,20 109:8

129:19,22 130:2

132:6 157:5,5,10

157:10 167:13

191:15 206:7

227:17

today's 10:8 13:16

183:11

toggle 107:4 115:1

118:2,15

told 112:15

tool 39:20

tools 35:5 39:16

40:3

top 20:4 21:17

25:15 26:15 58:21

99:20 124:7 154:4

211:1,5 214:7

226:11 228:3

total 60:6,7,14

218:8

totally 70:9

touched 224:18

toyed 197:6

TP 15:14,15 16:5

228:1

transcript 8:13

49:18

transient 144:14

transmission 9:5

transmittance

46:12,17,22 47:6

47:14 50:21 51:16

51:20 52:17

transparency 46:5

46:9,11 48:2 70:3

transparent 32:12

46:4 47:7,12,12

48:5,9 49:6 51:4

52:6 53:12 54:17

54:18 55:2,10

56:7,10,11,13,17

56:21 57:3,4,6,9

58:16 62:10 63:20

66:16,18 67:3,9

67:14 70:2,3,7

85:22 86:1,3

137:9 206:21

209:12,21 226:1

Traulsen 1:18,22

5:21

travel 4:22

travels 229:16

treated 53:14

120:10 142:8

treatment 14:22

15:5 119:18 120:2

152:6

trench 132:18

tried 42:9 81:1

trim 57:17

trouble 38:19

182:10 228:20

True 1:19 5:19

20:17 24:9 26:12

50:18 68:16

155:10 174:2

try 41:7 50:5

109:12 119:6

126:3 199:5

trying 9:3 15:8 29:4

40:13 51:11 52:5

62:8 80:17 81:5,8

82:19 97:12,17,21

98:10 133:21

134:1 135:14

187:5 188:7

189:22 190:12

208:17 211:3

turn 58:3 99:12

100:15 139:14,21

153:5 155:16,21

191:20

turned 107:18

138:1,19 140:9

152:9 153:1

174:18

turning 171:9,16

172:20 181:12

Twenty-four 30:18

two 18:6 24:22 29:6

36:6 56:20 64:18

65:12,13,18,22

66:16 67:13 68:2

68:18,19,21 69:2

71:1,2 74:7 75:3,4

75:5,10,16,18,19

76:1,3 83:4,11

85:10 88:9,16

92:6 102:9 107:4

108:11 114:14

128:11 129:13

130:5 157:1 173:3

189:16 206:21

222:14 224:21

226:22

two-dimensional

210:22 211:17

two-door 79:9

two-shelf 153:18

two-speed 111:16

type 20:10 22:17

23:22 25:11,22

26:4 27:1 52:16

61:3 69:21 75:12

78:17 84:3 94:4

123:8 193:6 212:9

219:11

types 17:18,22 18:2

18:3 19:5,13,16

21:6 22:13 23:15

26:13 43:14

121:21 142:13

typical 81:21 192:5

219:17

typically 5:10 47:2

47:9 111:15

132:13 135:20

182:14,16 193:2

220:15

U

U.S 1:1 4:4

UL 131:17 133:21

ultimately 40:8

197:15 206:6

understand 44:11

49:12 52:2 59:21

74:5 78:5 81:6

87:6 88:7 106:13

112:13 115:4,5

117:19 135:7,14

178:8 182:2

183:19 186:20

189:18 190:2

understanding

25:11 42:11,15

80:4 182:3 212:16

understood 49:11

129:11

unfairly 191:8

unfortunately

33:11 58:9 155:17

unhindered 123:1

uniform 99:15

unique 19:16 25:12

76:7 141:18 207:3

uniqueness 129:12

unit 27:15 28:6,7

30:3,5,14 31:12

31:17 34:21 41:16

41:17,20 42:3,10

42:22 43:9 55:17

55:18 57:2,9

58:12 61:10 65:10

65:17,21 66:15

67:5 70:8 72:18

72:20 75:1,13

76:22 78:15,17

80:5 83:10 84:22

85:13,15 91:10

92:9,13 93:4,6,11

93:13,17 97:6

98:18,19,22 99:7

99:11,12 111:4

113:11 126:18

132:21 138:6

141:12 147:6,13

150:18 156:1

158:6,7 159:22

160:5,8 168:6

170:16,17,21,22

171:20 172:1,5

175:15 178:21

179:1 182:8,15

201:7

unit's 81:13

unitary 144:4

United 136:19

192:7

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units 20:19,21 29:8

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61:7 75:6 79:10

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146:17 147:10

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169:8 171:11

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upsize 61:2,10

upwards 141:21

USA 2:1 6:1 196:13

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use 14:6 15:15

17:16 22:9,18

28:11 35:4 38:7

39:16 40:2 46:20

49:8 70:16 73:22

81:5 84:18 102:22

107:5 115:12

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124:2 125:6

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139:22 142:6

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159:9 178:10

195:8 199:9

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uses 56:16

usually 26:18 58:14

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values 164:10 168:8

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variability 177:10

variable 105:21

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variation 152:9

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various 14:4

vast 26:16

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vegetables 146:2

ventilation 14:19

verify 24:11 94:21

version 193:19

versus 30:19 31:9

32:10,13 41:1

44:15 51:6 56:12

62:1 63:20 64:3

90:9 130:15 164:8

190:14

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189:17 194:1,21

196:8,10 197:1,13

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220:1 224:10

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volume 13:3 23:8

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41:1,10,16,22

42:2,9 43:5 60:15

125:10 133:7

184:1 186:13

187:1,9,16 188:21

189:7,10,15 195:9

205:7 206:17

209:5,20 210:12

210:19 211:2

212:19 219:19,21

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volumes 82:16

vote 120:13 130:17

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wait 155:1,9

waived 144:3

waiver 73:18 74:2

102:12 127:20

128:6 156:18

wall 69:6 80:3

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141:20 186:9

187:15,15 205:11

205:17 211:1,1,5

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want 44:11 49:8

52:20 59:18 62:18

63:3 78:19 79:21

84:19 94:8 100:8

107:5 108:14

110:11 114:10

123:11 126:5

132:16 144:15

145:19 156:16

161:11 162:10

172:2 178:7

183:16 184:2,18

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218:19 221:21

225:6 226:12

227:18

wanted 48:4 94:17

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186:2,3 188:9

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227:22 228:10

wants 8:5 10:1

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warm 25:14 107:18

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121:22 122:5,6

123:2 127:13

134:13 137:11

way 35:10 37:19

38:1 40:18 42:21

52:3,7,7,8,9 53:10

57:19 61:14 62:10

73:2 80:10,15,18

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102:14 107:14

117:1,3,10 118:3

121:18 124:14,15

127:21 131:20

136:14,21 144:8

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171:9,17 172:21

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216:9 222:6

225:19 226:10

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188:20 189:16

226:22

we'll 7:17,21 9:15

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we're 4:13 5:7 7:12

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223:5 224:17

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176:15 177:17

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180:18 181:20

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196:22 198:3,3

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wiggle 108:7

wind 205:13

windows 188:18

wine 52:16 70:16

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word 116:14

worded 180:6

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113:20 114:1

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working 9:5 125:22

126:4,5 131:2

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written 10:15 50:9

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224:15 227:19

wrong 213:6

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year 158:17 174:5

years 12:12 216:19

yogurts 213:2

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66:18 68:3 69:16

123:6 127:8

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171:1 178:16

179:6 182:19

195:2 213:9

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153:10 195:3

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70:19 99:4 110:6

110:6 170:19

191:6 194:15

198:6

10-foot 196:17

10:30 7:18

10:34 110:8

10:35 109:6

10:54 110:9

100 144:12

1000 1:11

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117 12:5,7,11

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12-inch 200:20

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1200 163:13 176:8

215:19

1200-2006 12:19

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13 10:20 11:13

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14 45:15

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95:22 96:7,8 99:4

104:19 105:11

135:4 199:3

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168:6 169:20

170:2 174:17

175:14 178:22

179:1 187:7

199:17 216:15

219:8 220:12

221:8 223:16

2.2 175:22

20 135:5

2004 13:2

2005 12:3

2006 12:16

2008 193:17 214:1

214:5,19 215:17

218:2 224:5

2010 163:14

2012 13:5,18 14:11

101:1 103:15

152:4 154:15

157:19 158:12

163:11 176:15

2013 1:8 4:8 14:16

119:20

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16:6 174:7 228:17

2017 155:2 158:15

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34 106:2 108:11

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35 106:2 108:11

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4

4 3:12 174:20 189:6

199:17 201:19

203:16 223:16

4-inch 63:8

40 129:7

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431.62 20:15 34:19

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431.66 19:9 65:15

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431.66(d)(1) 90:17

45 53:1 59:11,14

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5

5 1:8 4:8 95:7,14,18

96:4 161:14,16

176:8 177:16

178:20,21 179:3,7

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5-minute 161:8,8

161:11,15

50 53:1,2 57:18,21

59:3,6,9,10 61:9

61:20 62:4,5

87:11 88:19,22

129:6

50/50 61:1,11 62:12

6

6 170:19 198:3

200:20

6.1.1 151:16

6.2 160:3

63 176:14 178:11

64 51:15,19

65 46:11 47:13

50:21 51:22 52:17

52:22

7

7 12:12

7.4 160:5

70 225:14

72 24:16 122:11

160:1 165:4 166:6

166:17 173:22

72-2000 45:14

72-2005 12:21 45:8

173:7 174:3

75 57:7 58:8 59:2

75-55 139:15

8

8 169:2 170:8,13

178:10,12,15,18

182:18

8E-089 1:11

9

9:00 1:12

9:01 4:2

99.5 219:13

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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

258

Commercial Refrigeration Equipment

Notice of Proposed Rulemaking

US DOE

12-05-13

Washington, DC