1 OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

2 

3 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

4 In the matter of: 

•. ~ 

~ ~ 

5 MACH ONE AIR CHARTERS, INC., No. FAA-2015-0643 

6 ------------------------------) 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

TELEPHONIC PRETRIAL CONFERENCE 

Tuesday, August 23, 2016 

1:00 p.m. 

The Honorable Douglas M. Rawald 

Administrative Law Judge 

15 ON BEHALF OF THE FAA: 

16 GLENN H. BROWN, ESQ. 

17 

18 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT: 

19 STEVEN L. GRAFF, ESQ. 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 Reported telephonically by: 

25 Karen Guy, CER 
2 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 

2 

3 

4 

P R 0 C E E D I N G S 

(1:30 p.m.) 

JUDGE RAWALD: This is the prehearing conference 

5 in the case of Mach One Air Charters, Incorporated, 

6 Docket Number FAA-2015-0643. Today's date August 22nd, 

7 2016, and it's 1:00 p.m. eastern time. This is 

8 Administrative Law Judge Doug Rawald. I'm joined on the 

9 call by Government counsel Glenn Brown and Respondent's 

10 counsel Steven Graff. 

11 In terms of what you folks are -- yes, sir? 

12 MR. GRAFF: Just I'll note for the record to 

13 indicate this is Steven Graff, I am present here at the 

14 conference. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And let's go ahead and 

16 we'll put on the-- we'll go ahead and turn to Mr. Brown 

17 first. Sir, we asked for discovery to be completed as 

18 of August 9th. That's the day I ordered discovery 

19 completed. Is discovery completed in your mind? 

20 

21 

MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: And, Mr. Graff, do you agree? 

22 Mr. Graff, do you agree that discovery is completed? 

23 MR. GRAFF: Yes. I'm sorry, Your Honor, can 

24 you -- is it a bad connection? 

25 JUDGE RAWALD: I just didn't hear you when you 

For The Record, Inc. 

(301) 870-8025- www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
Telephonic Pre hearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 

1 responded. Okay, so you do agree discovery is 

2 completed. Wonderful. 

3 

8/23/2016 

3 And the parties both agree there are no pending 

4 motions waiting for me to rule upon. That's right, Mr. 

5 Brown? 

6 

7 

8 

9 

MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: And Mr. Graff? 

MR. GRAFF: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: And based upon discovery as it 

10 was completed, does either party have a desire to file 

11 any discovery motions, or do you feel that there's no 

12 reason to do that? Mr. Brown? 

13 MR. BROWN: I have no reason to do that, Your 

14 Honor. 

15 

16 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And Mr. Graff? 

MR. GRAFF: I have no reason to do that either, 

17 Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Great. Let's turn to the 

19 question of venue, then. As I understand it, this case 

20 was slated to be heard and where the Government has 

21 requested it to be heard, in St. Louis -- St. Paul, 

22 excuse me. So, is that right, Mr. Brown? 

23 

24 

MR. BROWN: That is correct, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And why do you folks want 

25 to have the hearing in St. Paul? 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net - (800) 921-5555 
4 

Telephonic Preheoring Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 MR. BROWN: Well, Your Honor, I think it's 

2 for me, for the agency, it is because that's where 

3 basically the incident occurred, and our principal 

4 witnesses are located, and so it would certainly be a 

5 very large inconvenience to these folks who are, of 

6 course, working a business, a repair station, to have to 

7 travel somewhere to testify about something that 

8 happened basically at their facility. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And how many witnesses are 

10 there that you would think you would bring from St. Paul 

11 to some place else if we were going to have to move the 

12 hearing to some place else? 

13 MR. BROWN: Well, from St. Paul, there are 

14 three, and there's also a witness, at least one witness 

15 from Houston, Texas. 

16 JUDGE RAWALD: And any other people we need to 

17 be concerned about, or those are the four witnesses you 

18 plan on calling at the moment? 

19 MR. BROWN: Those are the -- well, there's 

20 actually the inspector, I also need to call him. He 

21 actually resides in Riverside, California. In that 

22 area, at least. 

23 JUDGE RAWALD: So, no matter what, the 

24 Government has to fly some people somewhere, it's just a 

25 question of how many people are going to be 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
Telephonic Pre hearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 

1 inconvenienced by this hearing? 

MR. BROWN: Right. 

5 

8/23/2016 

2 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: And your position is those three 

4 witnesses will be the most inconvenienced by moving it, 

5 so that the Government requests to have it in St. Paul. 

6 You would be coming from Alaska yourself, so that no 

7 matter, no place is convenient, unless it's in Alaska, 

8 to you, I imagine. 

9 MR. BROWN: Traveling is no inconvenience to me, 

10 Your Honor. 

11 

12 

JUDGE RAWALD: Understood, Mr. Brown. Okay. 

So, Mr. Graff, I understand you folks want to 

13 have the hearing in Los Angeles. Why is that? 

14 MR. GRAFF: Well, Your Honor, let's start with 

15 the fact that I probably have five witnesses here in the 

16 Los Angeles area. This is where my client's business 

17 is, number one. Number two, with respect to the three 

18 witnesses referenced by Government counsel in St. Paul, 

19 we've taken their deposition, and Mr. Brown was present 

20 at the deposition. There's no need to have them travel, 

21 we can use their depositions at time of trial. They 

22 were all under oath. 

23 I don't want to get into the substance of it, 

24 but as a result of those depositions, the companion 

25 cases that were pending before the NTSB were dismissed. 

For The Record, Inc. 

(301) 870-8025- www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
6 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 I don't think that those witnesses will add anything to 

2 this matter. So, there's really no need to have them 

3 travel to LA in order for this case to be -- if it were 

4 to be tried -- the venue were to be set in St. Paul, I 

5 mean, my client would endure a phenomenal expense in 

6 transporting all the witnesses there, as there's really 

7 no need, because one of the witnesses that we're going 

8 to call, who is one of the Government inspectors, in 

9 fact, is here in Southern California. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And you yourself, Mr. 

11 Graff, where are you located? 

12 MR. GRAFF: I'm in Southern California, Your 

13 Honor. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: And your clients themselves, they 

15 also are there with you in Los Angeles, the Los Angeles 

16 area? 

17 MR. GRAFF: Southern California, correct, Your 

18 Honor. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: You keep saying Southern 

20 California rather than Los Angeles. So, Southern 

21 California being much more broad than Los Angeles, there 

22 is a place you prefer to Los Angeles, or is Los Angeles 

23 the place that you prefer in Southern California? 

24 MR. GRAFF: Okay, let me give you -- obviously 

25 you're aware of Southern California. My office is in 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
7 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 Temecula, which is southern Riverside County. My client 

2 is in Chino, California, which is east of Los Angeles. 

3 The Riverside Flight Standard District Office, where one 

4 of the inspectors comes from, is in Riverside, 

5 California. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: So, all these folks will be able 

7 to commute from their home to the courthouse in Los 

8 Angeles if the case is to be heard in Los Angeles, 

9 however? 

10 MR. GRAFF: There shouldn't be any problem with 

11 anybody getting in a car. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: And they wouldn't have to incur 

13 any hotel expenses, they would stay at horne at night 

14 from the courthouse? 

15 MR. GRAFF: Well, it all depends. If the 

16 hearing is set for, let's say, you know, 8:00 or 9:00 in 

17 downtown Los Angeles, to get to downtown LA is just, you 

18 know, is going to take hours. I mean, I would 

19 virtually, for my own benefit, get a hotel room down 

20 there rather than commute in the morning. 

21 

22 

23 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

MR. GRAFF: But that's really a non-issue. 

JUDGE RAWALD: And is there a federal courthouse 

24 that's closer to the parties, then, are you aware of 

25 that, or is Los Angeles the closest federal courthouse 

For The Record, Inc. 

(301) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net - (800) 921-5555 
8 

Telephonic Preheari ng Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 that you're aware of? 

2 MR. GRAFF: I know that there's a federal 

3 courthouse -- well, pardon me, a federal -- well, 

4 there's a federal courthouse, a federal bankruptcy 

5 courthouse in Riverside, California. And that's close 

6 to, you know, to the parties. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: All right. I'm looking that up 

8 on the Google here as we're talking so I can have an 

9 understanding of what we're talking about. 

10 MR. GRAFF: Also, let me suggest something. 

11 you're looking for a location, Riverside County has a 

If 

12 beautiful county courthouse, and, you know, I know that 

13 some of the courtrooms are not used all the time. So, 

14 there's a possibility that they would cooperate with the 

15 Federal Government in terms of the use of their 

16 facility. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, I do see here that there's 

18 a district courthouse in Riverside. There's a district 

19 court, there's a bankruptcy court, as well as the court 

20 you talked about from the county there available as 

21 well. So, it seems like Riverside would be preferred 

22 rather than LA. Is that correct, sir? 

23 

24 

MR. GRAFF: Oh, absolutely, yes. 

JUDGE RAWALD: And for your client as well, that 

25 would be better for them? 

For The Record, Inc. 

(301) 870-8025- www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
9 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 

2 

MR. GRAFF: Absolutely. 

JUDGE RAWALD: And that would accommodate at 

3 least one of those Government witnesses, it would 

4 inconvenience the other three who are in St. Paul. 

5 Okay, so I'll put in the report that you actually asked 

6 for Riverside, California, rather than Los Angeles. 

7 

8 

MR. GRAFF: That would be fine. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And I will compare this 

9 further once I look at the issue more. I do want to 

10 consider everyone's needs here, and make sure I've made 

11 the right choice. So, we will put this under advisement 

12 for future purposes. 

13 So, Mr. Brown, any other thoughts on Riverside, 

14 California? 

15 MR. BROWN: Well, I do want to comment on Mr. 

16 Graff's statement. The rules don't allow us to use 

17 depositions in--

18 JUDGE RAWALD: No, and I'll add, Mr. Brown, I'm 

19 not going to consider that point for making a decision. 

20 Frankly, he can't dictate how you're going to try your 

21 case, period. So, if you want to call witnesses, you're 

22 going to call witnesses, and so I'm not going to make my 

23 venue choices on whether or not those people don't 

24 necessarily need to be called to make your case. 

25 MR. BROWN: And obviously if it's going to be in 

For The Record, Inc. 

(301) 870-8025- www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
10 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 Southern California, Riverside certainly is better for 

2 us than in Los Angeles. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: You know, LA seems to be like a 

4 nonstarter. Once he said that would be a couple of hour 

5 drive, I think if Riverside is convenient to all 

6 parties, it's really Riverside versus St. Paul. And, 

7 so, that's what I'll look at here. So, okay. Anything 

8 else on the issue, Mr. Brown? 

9 

10 

MR. BROWN: No, Your Honor. 

MR. GRAFF: No, Your Honor. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: And that's Mr. Brown and Mr. 

12 Graff both saying no, so let's turn to a litigation 

13 schedule, then. The parties propose a schedule, which 

14 we have passed by on the part of my actions. So, when 

15 do folks want to be filing motions by? Now that you 

16 have your discovery, have had a chance to review it, if 

17 you have any motions you want to file, what's the 

18 deadline for that? 

19 Mr. Brown, what do you think would be a deadline 

20 for filing motions for you? 

21 MR. BROWN: At this point, I'm not seeing any, 

22 so I guess it's --it doesn't matter to me. 

23 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And, Mr. Graff, how about 

24 you? 

25 MR. GRAFF: Your Honor, I may be filing a motion 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
11 

Telephonic Pre hearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 for summary judgment. 

2 

3 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

MR. GRAFF: So, I unfortunately don't have the 

4 rules right in front of me, but in terms of time for, 

5 you know, obviously for me to prepare the motion and 

6 then for the Government to respond, and then a reply, 

7 you know, if permitted, you know, whatever that time 

8 period is. 

9 

10 

JUDGE RAWALD: Well, we'll go ahead and set up 

that schedule, then, today. I mean, we can I have my 

11 rules here and can override what's in the book as far as 

12 time goes. So, for the purposes of the motion, when do 

13 you want to file that by? Is October 1st sufficient 

14 time for you to get that motion in? 

15 

16 

MR. GRAFF: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: And, Mr. Brown, is that amenable 

17 to you to have him file it by October 1st? 

18 

19 

MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, and then, Mr. Brown, if I 

20 give you 30 days, as I typically do to respond to 

21 motions, is that sufficient time for you? 

22 

23 

MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: And, Mr. Brown, just for your 

24 understanding, what I typically do is require 30 days 

25 after the filing of those, and so if he files it early, 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 

12 

8/23/2016 

1 Mr. Brown's clock will run from the day you file it, not 

2 from the date of October 1st; understood? 

3 MR. BROWN: Oh, understood and acceptable, no 

4 problem. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And then once we go ahead 

6 and reserve a date for arguing that, the summary 

7 judgment motion, that would be something I would want to 

8 hear argument on, if the parties wanted to have argument 

9 on it. So, if you can pull out your November calendars, 

10 because that would be most convenient. 

11 So, is November -- Mr. Brown, I have a motion 

12 hearing actually in Wood Valley November 15th. Is 

13 November 17th amenable or is that too soon for you, Mr. 

14 Brown, after the other motion argument? 

15 MR. BROWN: I don't think it would be too soon, 

16 Your Honor, so the 17th should be fine. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: And, Mr. Graff, would November 

18 17th work as a date for you for holding for the motion 

19 argument if we had one? 

20 MR. GRAFF: Yes, Your Honor. I'm looking at the 

21 calendar, that's a Thursday, correct? 

22 

23 

24 date. 

25 

JUDGE RAWALD: It is. 

MR. GRAFF: Yes, I have no problem with that 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So, I will ask that both 

For The Record, Inc. 

(301) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net - (800) 921-5555 
13 

Telephonic Pre hearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 parties reserve that day as the day we will have 

2 telephonic arguments on the motion, only if the parties 

3 request it. In other words, Mr. Graff, if you file your 

4 motion and don't want argument, then Mr. Brown doesn't 

5 want argument, then we won't have it; but if you do, I 

6 will go ahead and order that argument be that day at a 

7 particular time. Okay? 

8 MR. GRAFF: Yes, Your Honor, and what I'll do is 

9 I'll coordinate with Mr. Brown. 

10 

11 

12 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

MR. GRAFF: If there's any argument necessary. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. But keep that date 

13 November 17th on your calendar and that will be a date 

14 we're pulling aside for this. 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

parties 

another 

hearing. 

MR. GRAFF: That's fine. 

MR. BROWN: That fine, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, I would ask that 

provide witness and evidence lists to 

that are complete for 30 days before 

Does that work for you, Mr. Brown? 

MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: And Mr. Graff? 

MR. GRAFF: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And, Mr. Graff, 

both 

one 

the 

do you 

25 have any subpoena requests you want for me to get people 

For The Record, Inc. 

(301) 870-8025- www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
14 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 to appear for the hearing? I usually want 30 days 

2 before the hearing for those requests. Is that okay 

3 with you? 

4 MR. GRAFF: Yes. Certainly. Well, okay, the 

5 witness list is 30 days before the hearing, and then the 

6 subpoena request is also 30 days? 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Right, that gives me enough time 

8 to actually act upon a subpoena request, because it 

9 gives me time if it's hard to kind of make that happen. 

10 MR. GRAFF: Oh, okay. Whatever period of time 

11 Your Honor feels is necessary. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And, I mean, it sounds 

13 like you won't need that, because your witnesses are 

14 people you already work with, but in case you need one, 

15 then I will be able to provide one. 

16 Okay. And I ask that each party provide me with 

17 a CD with all of the premarked versions of your exhibits 

18 at least 30 days before the hearing as well. 

19 

20 

21 you? 

22 

23 

MR. BROWN: CD version of exhibits. 

JUDGE RAWALD: And, Mr. Graff, is that okay with 

MR. GRAFF: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: And just so you know, Mr. Graff, 

24 I will be putting out a report this evening or tomorrow 

25 that will come to you listing all of these things that 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net - (800) 921-5555 
15 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 we agreed to as well. So, I know you're writing down as 

2 we're talking, but I do want to assure you, you will get 

3 a complete list of all these things we've agreed to. 

4 MR. BROWN: Your Honor, in terms of the list 

5 well, do you want the exhibits themselves, or just a 

6 list of the exhibits? 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: No, what I would like is the 

8 actual exhibits on a CD so I can review them before the 

9 hearing so I can be smart on the issues. And then at 

10 the hearing if people are objecting to certain exhibits 

11 or if there is a discussion of the exhibit, I can 

12 actually be informed what the exhibits are and we can 

13 discuss them intelligently. 

14 MR. BROWN: Okay. Do you also want hard copies 

15 or just the CD version? 

16 JUDGE RAWALD: No, I think it would be easier 

17 and less expensive for all people, so I would prefer 

18 that actually. 

19 

20 

MR. BROWN: Fine. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Unless that proposes challenge 

21 for you. If you can't do that, then I'll take the hard 

22 copy, but I think that's usually much less difficult to 

23 mail me a CD than it is to mail me a package of papers. 

24 MR. BROWN: I expect that converting them into a 

25 CD, I'm going to hire some 14-year-old kid to do it. 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
16 

Telephonic Pre hearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 They're less technologically challenged than I am. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, I do want to save your 

3 clients money if at all possible on certain things. So, 

4 okay. 

5 And then, Mr. Brown, you're heard this before, 

6 but I'll let you know, Mr. Graff, as well, I'll leave 

7 the ability for the parties to request any post-hearing 

8 brief at the hearing. So, if an issue comes up and you 

9 want to brief it after the hearing, we can discuss it at 

10 the hearing. I don't have a druthers one way or the 

11 other. I like to have argument by the parties at the 

12 hearing so I would talk to the parties about the various 

13 issues and we can further explore it and I'll read the 

14 law and the facts as we've heard them, but I do want to 

15 give you the opportunity to brief something if you think 

16 it's really interesting and you're not prepared to talk 

17 about it at the hearing. Okay, Mr. Brown? 

18 

19 

MR. BROWN: Fine, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Let's talk about the hearing 

20 date, then. Given that we'll have a summary judgment 

21 argument probably in November at some point, if we have 

22 one at all, then I will decide that by it looks like 

23 hopefully December. So, we would be looking at the next 

24 calendar year. I've already booked several things into 

25 the next calendar year, some of which include Mr. Brown, 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
17 

Telephonic Pre hearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 so he is also busy those days. 

2 So, actually, I'm trying to look at when I would 

3 be available in February. Mr. Brown, do you have 

4 something in February, the first week of February? Was 

5 there a reason why I didn't have that booked up? 

6 

7 Honor? 

8 

9 

MR. BROWN: The first week of February, Your 

JUDGE RAWALD: That's right. 

MR. BROWN: The first week of February, I have 

10 nothing booked, Your Honor. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: I have another case that last 

12 week of January which you may be on, I'm not sure. That 

13 would be a little bit difficult. What about March 

14 the week of March 13th? 

15 

16 

17 

18 

MR. BROWN: That's still part of my son's --

JUDGE RAWALD: Spring break? 

MR. BROWN: spring break, so I guess it's 

JUDGE RAWALD: And the following week, Mr. 

19 Brown, March 20th through 24th? 

20 

21 

MR. BROWN: That would work. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, and, Mr. Graff, how does 

22 that work for you? 

23 MR. GRAFF: Yeah, I'm looking, that's good for 

24 me, the week of the 20th. 

25 JUDGE RAWALD: All right, March 20th through 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net - (800) 921-5555 
18 

Telephonic Pre hearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 24th. 

2 

3 

MR. GRAFF: That's fine. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, let's hold back the 

4 possible hearing date in this case, and I'll go ahead 

5 and look at the courts and make a decision on venue and 

6 then let you know that that hearing date is solid once 

7 we get all that lined up. 

8 

9 

MR. BROWN: So, it would be any day that week? 

JUDGE RAWALD: Well, I want to talk to you next, 

10 how long do you think the hearing will last? Mr. Graff, 

11 what's your opinion? 

12 MR. GRAFF: I would assume -- well, just to be 

13 on the safe side, I'm going to say a day and a half. 

14 

15 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And Mr. Brown? 

MR. BROWN: Well, given my most recent 

16 experiences with hearings, I -- this could go into three 

17 days, I think. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: I mean, there's a lot of 

19 witnesses we're talking about here, at least eight 

20 witnesses, so it could run long. So, what I would 

21 probably suspect is that I would put the case up needing 

22 to be heard starting on Tuesday, March 21st, and tell 

23 them to reserve the courtroom through the end of the 

24 week just to be on the safe side so we wouldn't feel 

25 rushed. That's how I would handle it most likely. So, 

For The Record, Inc. 

(301) 870-8025 -www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
19 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 keep the whole week open on your calendar, expecting 

2 that I would probably order the hearing start that 

3 Tuesday, March 21st. 

4 MR. GRAFF: Okay, that's fine, Your Honor. 

5 

6 

7 

JUDGE RAWALD: Is that okay with you, Mr. Brown? 

MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, good. Any other 

8 calendaring or litigation scheduling issues that you 

9 want to discuss, Mr. Brown? 

10 

11 

12 

13 

MR. BROWN: No, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, Mr. Graff? 

MR. GRAFF: Nothing further, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Let's just talk about a 

14 substantive issue. I noticed, Mr. Graff, I don't know 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

if you 

notice 

of the 

are you 

have your answer in front 

on page 2 of your answer, 

page, it's allegation 3, 

there? Do you have it? 

MR. GRAFF: Hold on just 

of you, but I did 

starting in the middle 

paragraph 1, it says --

a second. Let me get 

20 my answer. 

21 

22 

JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. 

MR. GRAFF: Okay. Okay, I have my answer to the 

23 complaint. 

24 JUDGE RAWALD: On page 2 of your answer, it's in 

25 the middle of the page, it has allegation 3 in bold type 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
20 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 and then it had a number 1 below it and the sentence 

2 reads, "This answering respondent denies/admits the 

3 allegation contained in paragraph 1." I assume you mean 

4 denies, not admits. Is that right, sir? 

5 MR. GRAFF: The statement admits -- let's see. 

6 What paragraph number, Your Honor, are you referring to? 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: So, on page 2, there's a 

8 paragraph 3, a paragraph 4, sentence allegation 3 in 

9 bold type, and then there's a paragraph numbered 1. 

10 That paragraph number 1, the first sentence reads, "This 

11 answering respondent denies/admits the allegation 

12 contained in paragraph 1.'' 

13 

14 

MR. GRAFF: That is a typo. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Right, it should be just denies. 

15 Is that right, sir? 

16 MR. GRAFF: I'll list it, let's put it right now 

17 as a denial, and I'll cross-reference it and, you know, 

18 file an as-amended pleading in the event it's the other 

19 way around. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: I appreciate that, okay, thank 

21 you. Do you see what I'm talking about there, Mr. 

22 Brown? 

23 MR. BROWN: I see where you're talking about, 

24 yes, Your Honor. I assumed it was a denial, Your Honor, 

25 so that's fine. 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net - (800) 921-5555 
21 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, I just wanted to make sure 

2 that everybody is clear about what's being said here. 

3 Deny makes sense, I just want to make sure that is 

4 what's meant. 

5 Okay. And then, Mr. Graff, you do raise a 

6 number of affirmative defenses. Having had discovery, 

7 have you pared down the affirmative responses you're 

8 going to be presenting, or do you want me to be prepared 

9 for possibly eight different affirmative defenses? 

10 MR. GRAFF: Give me a moment, Your Honor, and 

11 I'll tell you whether or not we are going to pursue any 

12 of the other affirmative responses. 

13 

14 

JUDGE RAWALD: That's okay. 

MR. GRAFF: Your Honor, we will not be pursuing 

15 the fourth affirmative, fifth affirmative or the eighth 

16 affirmative defense. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: So, I have fourth, fifth and 

18 eighth. 

19 MR. GRAFF: That is correct. And I may -- we 

20 may delete -- you know, as trial comes closer, we may 

21 delete some of the other defenses as well and not pursue 

22 them. 

23 JUDGE RAWALD: That's fine. It's helpful to 

24 know now as I'm preparing for trial and Mr. Brown's 

25 preparing for trial which issues are still in play. 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
22 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 And, so, you're saying at least three of those 

2 affirmative defenses are off the table, and so Mr. Brown 

3 and I will not focus any attention in our own respective 

4 work on those particular affirmative defenses, okay? 

5 

6 

7 

Mr. Brown, do you understand where we are there? 

MR. BROWN: Yes, I do. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So, okay. Anything else 

8 substantively to talk about, Mr. Graff? 

9 

10 

MR. GRAFF: No, nothing further, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, anything substantively you 

11 want to talk about, Mr. Brown? 

12 

13 

MR. BROWN: Nothing further. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, and let's talk about one 

14 last issue, then, which is settlement. Have the parties 

15 had an opportunity to talk about settlement at all so 

16 far? 

17 MR. GRAFF: Your Honor, this is Steve Graff. We 

18 just completed the deposition, by stipulation, of the 

19 pilot of the aircraft. We do not have a transcript of 

20 that yet. I will be contacting counsel for the 

21 administrator and we'll be discussing settlement or I 

22 probably should say a resolution of the case, even 

23 before we get that, and I know Mr. Brown hasn't had the 

24 opportunity to review the transcript either, but we will 

25 be sitting down. We have a very good relationship. I 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
23 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 think apparently, this is my first case with him and 

2 he's a real gentleman. So, I think that settlement 

3 negotiations will go well. Whether we reach a 

4 settlement is something else. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: And, Mr. Brown, do you share that 

6 perspective, then? 

7 

8 

MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Then as I do in all cases, 

9 I encourage the parties to continue to talk about 

10 settlement, it's always better for the parties if we can 

11 avoid having a hearing and the costs associated with the 

12 hearing and all those things, but if necessary, we will 

13 have the hearing, obviously. So, please keep me 

14 apprised of your settlement negotiations. 

15 What I will go ahead and do is issue a 

16 prehearing conference report relating all the things 

17 that I've discussed here today and it should be to you 

18 tomorrow. 

19 Mr. Graff, we do have a fax number for you. I 

20 have also been serving Mr. Hill. Do you mind if we 

21 remove him from the service list at this point? I don't 

22 see a need to serve him if we're serving you as well. 

23 MR. GRAFF: I'll be able to get him-- he is my 

24 client, I'll be able to get him copies of all documents. 

25 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. So, the previous judge 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
24 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 typically served the client as well. I don't see the 

2 need for us to go through that if the attorney is on the 

3 case legally and it's sufficient to serve you and just 

4 keep serving you rather than him in addition. 

5 MR. GRAFF: I appreciate the courtesy, Your 

6 Honor. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, it's up to you. If you 

8 want me to keep serving Mr. Hill, I will, it's just 

9 easier not to. 

10 MR. GRAFF: Save everybody some money. We don't 

11 need to serve him. I can just scan and email him the 

12 documents. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Wonderful. Okay, then 

14 I'll be serving just you and Mr. Brown in the future in 

15 this case. 

16 Okay, any other questions for me? I'll ask that 

17 one last time. Mr. Graff, any questions for me? 

18 MR. GRAFF: No. Well, yes, there is one. If 

19 Mr. Brown and I have reached an almost settlement, but 

20 there's a few sticking points, and again, I have not 

21 discussed it with him yet. If there are a few sticking 

22 points, would it be appropriate for your office to act 

23 as a mediator in that matter and would you be willing to 

24 do so? 

25 JUDGE RAWALD: So, here's my position, and I 

For The Record, Inc. 

(30 1) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
25 

Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 8/23/2016 

1 articulated this recently in another case that Mr. Brown 

2 heard, is that I don't mind serving in that role in 

3 helping the parties come to a conclusion, because I feel 

4 pretty comfortable in being able to dispense of any 

5 discussion of settlement in deciding the facts of the 

6 case in the future. But all parties need to be 

7 comfortable with that, and, so, Mr. Brown, you can 

8 discuss whether you feel comfortable with that and want 

9 me to serve in that role, I certainly don't mind 

10 helping. 

11 What I have found in the past dealing with the 

12 Government and having myself having been a Government 

13 lawyer and also a private lawyer, is that the Government 

14 has to decide the case independent of Mr. Brown, so he 

15 may have to run that offer back to somebody else that's 

16 higher than him to get approval. So, it wouldn't 

17 necessarily be a situation where we could sit in a room 

18 together and I would be able to get to an answer, but I 

19 wouldn't mind helping people iron out certain issues, 

20 especially if it is a way that I can help avoid the 

21 expensive litigation in the long term by doing that. 

22 Does that answer your question, Mr. Graff? 

23 

24 

MR. GRAFF: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And, Mr. Brown, any other 

25 thoughts on that? 

For The Record, Inc. 

(301) 870-8025- www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 

MR. BROWN: Nothing further from me. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

MR. BROWN: I understand. 

26 

8/23/2016 

1 

2 

3 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Understood. Great, 

5 wonderful. At this time, I will go ahead and finish the 

6 prehearing conference report and we will go off the 

7 record. Thank you. 

8 (Whereupon, at 1:30 p.m., the telephonic hearing 

9 was adjourned.) 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 

For The Record, Inc. 

(301) 870-8025- www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555 
Telephonic Prehearing Conference 

Mach One Air Charters, Inc. 

1 

2 

3 

CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 

4 I, Karen Guy, do hereby certify that the 

27 

8/23/2016 

5 foregoing telephonic proceedings were recorded by me via 

6 digital audio recording and reduced to typewriting under 

7 my supervision; that I am neither counsel for, related 

8 to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in 

9 which these proceedings were transcribed; and further, 

10 that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or 

11 counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor financially 

12 or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 

KAREN GUY, CER 

For The Record, Inc. 

(301) 870-8025- www.ftrinc.net- (800) 921-5555