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 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY

 COMMITTEE MEETING

 Friday, June 21, 2013

 Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute

 950 L'Enfant Plaza

 Room 6097-6099

 Washington, D.C. 20585

Reported by: Natasha Thomas,

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So this is Laura

3 Barhydt, for those of you on the phone, and I am here

4 on behalf of the Department of Energy. And thank you

5 all for taking time to participate today. I know it

6 was very short notice, and I really appreciate your

7 participation today in particular, because I know we've

8 got a really tight schedule, and I wanted to make sure

9 that the commercial refrigeration equipment

10 manufacturers had sufficient time to raise some of the

11 concerns that they have about basic model definition so

12 that when we come into the July 1st- 2nd meeting, we're

13 in a better position to hopefully wrap up the basic

14 model issues and complete that section of the

15 negotiated rulemaking.

16 So if -- somebody from the commercial

17 refrigeration area might want to start us off with some

18 of your issues. I know you all sent us a list, and I'm

19 figuring that that's probably a good place to start,

20 but if there are thoughts about another place to start

21 -- again, if you're on the phone, you need to mute your

22 phone. This is not going to work well if people can't
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1 keep their phones muted.

2 MR. SHEBIK: Laura, this is Ron. Can you

3 hear me?

4 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I can hear you just fine,

5 Ron.

6 MR. SHEBIK: Before we start, can we do a

7 real quick roll call so we know who's on the phone and

8 who's in the building?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Sure. So we'll go around the

10 table here, and then I'm actually going to ask that we

11 just read off the names of the people on the webinar,

12 because I think that will work a little bit better in

13 terms of -- rather than having people try and talk over

14 each other on the phone. It's going to be hard to do a

15 roll call that way. So this is Laura Barhydt, DOE.

16 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Again, it sounds like somebody

18 does not have their phone muted.

19 MR. FREEMAN: The easy fix --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Is to mute everyone.

21 MR. FREEMAN: -- is we'll mute everyone, and

22 then they just have to raise their hand on the webinar,
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1 because we just muted everyone, and it's gone, so it's

2 clearly on the other end.

3 MS. BARHYDT: On the other end.

4 MR. FREEMAN: So we'll do that.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So does everyone -- so unmute

6 them for just a second. Does everybody know how to

7 raise your hand on the webinar so that you can be

8 recognized and unmuted to speak? Does anyone not know

9 how to raise their hands? Speak up now. You're not on

10 mute. Okay. Sounds like people do know how to raise

11 their hand, so that'll -- I think that's going to help

12 with the feedback issue that we're having. So go ahead

13 and mute the lines, and then we'll just have people

14 raise their hand when they want to speak. And

15 hopefully that improved the feedback for everybody on

16 the phone. So, again, I'm Laura Barhydt, DOE.

17 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing.

18 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, Southern Store

19 Fixtures.

20 MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond, AHRI.

21 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo, Earthjustice.

22 MR. WEBER: Collin Weber, Navigant
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1 Consulting.

2 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant

3 Consulting.

4 MS. BARHYDT: And then can you read off the

5 list of people on the

6 MS. MARCHETTI: Uh-huh. We've got Brian

7 Genes (ph), Chris Thompson, Fred Melle (ph), Jeff

8 Bauman, Mark Fly, Michael Woodford, Bruce Heim (ph) --

9 MR. WEBER: Hierlmeier.

10 MS. MARCHETTI: Hierlmeier.

11 MR. WEBER: Yes.

12 MS. MARCHETTI: Dominic, Larry Hampton (ph),

13 Mary Dane, Ron Shebik.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So for the basic model

15 of commercial refrigeration equipment, my understanding

16 is a group of commercial refrigeration equipment

17 manufacturers got together in the last week and came up

18 with a list of some of the issues that they have

19 concerns about. And so that is what you see right now

20 on your screen.

21 And the first issue that they raised was

22 customer display signs and light kits. And if I can
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1 just get some clarification, is the light kit -- are

2 you referring to the light kits inside of the

3 equipment, or is that somehow referring to the display

4 signs?

5 MR. HON: Only display signs.

6 MR. NESHAN: Usually it's on the outside,

7 yeah.

8 MS. BARHYDT: It's on the outside?

9 MR. HON: Because if you put additional

10 lights on the inside, it changes a lot of features as

11 far as heat load inside the unit. There are customers

12 who will display, on a -- normally you see a glass13 doored refrigerator with some sort of a light on the

14 outside of it, but that isn't the only thing that's out

15 there.

16 There are also some people who want to have a

17 light display on what we would consider a solid-door

18 refrigerator, where it has a half door, but if you

19 don't have more than half the coverage of glass, it's

20 considered a solid-door refrigerator.

21 So if you have one of each, you may need a

22 sign on it, and what happens then is that there's a
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1 difference in energy allowance between a solid-door

2 refrigerator and a glass-door refrigerator. There are

3 also customers who will want to put things on top of

4 their refrigerators. We have people who are literally

5 mounting pivot points for small TV sets and VCRs to go

6 on the top of the unit to -- in a grocery store. These

7 are abnormal things that are not at all the normal

8 items, but they do exist, and those are what they're

9 asking about.

10 MS. BARHYDT: And are they wired into the

11 equipment? They're not just add-on things on the

12 MR. HON: Depends on the equipment. If it's

13 factory-installed, UL requires most of the time that

14 they be wired into the equipment and considered as part

15 of the load of the equipment; that way they're a

16 single-cord plug-in item. But a lot of this stuff is

17 an add-on with a separate cord as far as the video

18 displays and things like that, because if not, then the

19 load of the unit goes too high.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

21 MR. HON: So there's no perfect answer of how

22 to describe these. They're fairly low-volume, but they
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1 do exist. And the integral power units, like 90

2 percent of them in the market, are not what they're

3 talking about here. If it's integral to the unit,

4 built-in, designed that way, it's considered part of --

5 the load is already allotted for.

6 MS. BARHYDT: In the test procedure?

7 MR. HON: In the test procedures. But these

8 are the specials, that Red Bull sometimes will put a

9 big, fancy display on top of one of their units and

10 have it cord-connected themselves.

11 MR. SHEBIK: Charlie?

12 MR. HON: Yes?

13 MR. SHEBIK: One way to describe it would be

14 like additional lighting that's outside of the

15 refrigerated area?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

17 MR. SHEBIK: Because, like you said, the Red

18 Bull displays, the video screen, the dry goods shelving

19 that's connected to the outside of the case, that's all

20 outside of the refrigerated zone. Would that be an

21 easier way to define it?

22 MR. HON: The problem is, Ron, is that a lot
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1 of the standard displays are outside the refrigerated

2 zone built into the units. Like a lot of -- 90 percent

3 of our --

4 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah.

5 MR. HON: -- glass cabinets have lights

6 outside the cabinet.

7 MR. SHEBIK: Well, right, the top sign or

8 whatever, uh-huh.

9 MR. HON: Integrally built in, designed into

10 the unit, accounted for in the DOE numbers.

11 MR. SHEBIK: And to kind of go on with what

12 Laura was asking, if it's tied into the case or not,

13 it's -- when you look at the large remote case lineup,

14 somebody that has dry goods shelves and other types of

15 display, ideally for the installer, they would prefer

16 to tie it into the case lining so that way they can use

17 one switch to shut off the whole, entire lineup, so

18 they would shut off the lining for the cases as well as

19 the dry good shelves without having to have two

20 separate circuits. So they would -- they prefer to

21 keep it all together.

22 MS. BARHYDT: SO you've got a case that has a
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1 refrigerated compartment and an unrefrigerated

2 compartment?

3 MR. SHEBIK: It's just outside the

4 refrigerated case. I mean, again, I'm using an example

5 that we have and some of our creditors have is you just

6 have a dry shelf, an unrefrigerated shelf between two

7 refrigerated cases that may be used to display potato

8 chips or salsa or something like that, that has, you

9 know, LED lights or some other kind of lights on the

10 shelf. It's not part of the refrigerated case at all.

11 MR. RIVEST: Is it part of the measured

12 volume?

13 MR. NESHAN: No. No, no, it's not part of

14 the refrigerated area, so it doesn't come into any

15 calculation.

16 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah, it's external to the case.

17 MS. BARHYDT: But it's still connected into

18 the --

19 MR. SHEBIK: But it may be wired into the

20 same circuit that the case is wired into.

21 MR. NESHAN: So they do that for the ease of

22 store owners don't have to run a separate circuit. You
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1 know, they're trying to cut costs and installation

2 costs --

3 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

4 MR. NESHAN: -- you know, and it'll also have

5 one --

6 MR. SHEBIK: Right.

7 MR. NESHAN: -- on/off switch.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Is there a way to isolate that

9 power? Is there a way that we can address this in the

10 test procedure? I mean, because, I mean, that's going

11 to be one of our biggest issues is if we say, "Don't

12 count that power," how do we not count that power? How

13 do you isolate that power? Because, I mean, even if

14 that is what we want to do, how would we do that?

15 MR. NESHAN: Let me give you another example

16 there. A lot of customers ask for the display cases to

17 have a 15-amp or 20-amp outlet. So if I have demo --

18 you know, you usually go to supermarkets, they have a

19 demo station next to it. They're cooking something.

20 How am I supposed to account for that? I have no clue,

21 as a manufacturer, what they are going to be plugging

22 into it. You see? And how long they're going to use
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1 it.

2 MR. SHEBIK: That's another line item,

3 Massoud.

4 MR. NESHAN: Yeah, I understand, but I'm --

5 you see, it's very difficult for us as a manufacturer

6 to know what they're plugging in or how many lights

7 they're going to put in and so on.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Well, okay, just because they

9 have an outlet on it doesn't mean that you have to

10 account for whatever they plug into it.

11 MR. NESHAN: Correct.

12 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, that -- at that point,

13 it's clearly not part of the product that you've

14 manufactured, so

15 MR. BALLO: I guess I have a concern that

16 we're going to run into a situation where it's very

17 hard to define what lighting's part of the product and

18 what lighting is external and

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

20 MR. BALLO: If it has a separate plug, okay,

21 I get that, but if it's all in one plug, how do you

22 decide what's internal to the product and what's an
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1 add-on?

2 MR. RIVEST: In my mind, if it's providing

3 lighting of the case to make the product visible, that

4 should be accounted for. If it's advertising, which is

5 really indication as opposed to illumination -- right?

6 So like an exit sign, that's not lighting the room.

7 That's the --

8 MR. HON: There are also people who put

9 floodlights armed to --

10 MR. RIVEST: That's problematic.

11 MR. HON: -- to snake into the --

12 MR. RIVEST: Light in the case? That would

13 be on a -- that would be, in my mind, inappropriate.

14 MR. HON: That's why I wanted to bring that

15 up, but it does exist. We don't do it, but it does

16 exist.

17 MR. RIVEST: But that could not be excluded.

18 That's just moving light sources from where they're

19 being

20 MR. HON: And that's why we're trying to --

21 that's why we're -- we're not afraid to put -- be

22 honest with you and put everything upon the table,
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1 because there are games that can be played, but,

2 likewise, we want to make sure that everyone

3 understands the rules.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

5 MR. HON: We don't want to have any ambiguity

6 in these at all.

7 MR. NESHAN: Well, okay, let me ask a

8 question, a basic question. We are talking about the

9 commercial refrigeration equipment; right? We are not

10 talking about dry shelving. You're talking about the

11 refrigerated equipment.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

13 MR. NESHAN: I care less what -- the bread

14 shelf that they have attached to our case, and we have

15 to supply power to it. That's not part of a

16 refrigerated case. That is not part of the -- what

17 ASHRAE standard calls for. That's not what the AHRI

18 test procedure calls for. And it's not even in the

19 energy efficiency standard. You're talking about the

20 refrigerated or freezer cases, not other display part

21 of the case.

22 MR. RIVEST: Right. So I'm drawing a
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1 distinction here between a spotlight that lights the

2 interior of the case, just from the outside, and a

3 spotlight that illuminates a shelf between two display

4 cases. Those are different.

5 MR. HON: Could it be defined as -- as far as

6 external lighting, if it's not lighting anything in the

7 refrigerated area?

8 MR. RIVEST: It's not contributing to the

9 lighting.

10 MR. HON: It's not contributing to the

11 lighting in the refrigerated area, because there are

12 shelves that we've put -- we will make a shelf rack

13 that sits on top for candy bars and things like that,

14 which lights the candy bars. And I can understand --

15 because that is an option, a definable option, which is

16 a separate line item in a purchase order.

17 MS. BARHYDT: And is there a way to isolate

18 that so that when it's tested --

19 MR. HON: Well, we could define -- yes, we

20 can very clearly define, if you order one, because

21 those only come in the factory, saying, "Okay, this is

22 a display external of the unit."
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1 MR. RIVEST: But even if it was shipped with,

2 I just take out the bulbs, and we're done?

3 MR. HON: Well, take -- disconnect the

4 valves, yeah, because the valves will eat up power.

5 But, yeah, but mostly, they're secondary plug

6 connections. Just disconnect and not have to do

7 anything.

8 MR. SHEBIK: Am I still muted?

9 MR. HON: You're clear, Ron.

10 MS. BARHYDT: You're here.

11 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. The suggested treatment

12 option that you've put up there, if lighting does not

13 eliminate product's internal --

14 MR. HON: I'm just (inaudible).

15 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I would generally agree

16 with what you're saying, except, Charlie, you're going

17 to want to weigh in on a sign panel.

18 MR. HON: Yeah.

19 MR. SHEBIK: The sign panel is standard on

20 most display cases. So a sign panel doesn't illuminate

21 product, but it's -- I mean, I think everyone

22 understands what a sign panel is on a case.
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1 MR. HON: It's integrally designed into the

2 unit so that the unit would not be complete without it.

3 We're not going to ever differentiate that product.

4 That is part of the base product. If you go in the

5 catalog, you look at the pictures, there is a sign

6 panel illuminated - - illuminated sign panel.

7 MR. WEBER: How about this option? If the

8 lighting doesn't illuminate products internal to the

9 refrigerated case and it is not integral to the unit.

10 So a sign panel would be included. A snake floodlight

11 that someone's trying to get around would be included.

12 But a bread shelf that someone wires in in the field

13 would not.

14 MR. RIVEST: I don't know if it's "and" or

15 "or" there.

16 MS. BARHYDT: I think it's "or."

17 MR. RIVEST: You think it's "or"?

18 MR. HON: The danger factor comes when

19 someone wants to add a little bit of extra sign panel.

20 Either there are what we call LED ends -- basically,

21 they put a big curved section around the end of the --

22 on the sides of the unit, make it a freestanding, out
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1 in the middle something, where each side has its own

2 set of lights on it, to where this thing just -- front

3 and both sides are illuminated, along with the top, and

4 those are all integral to the unit. But we have been

5 known to make those as kits, add-on kits after the

6 fact.

7 So the danger factor is no matter how you do

8 it, if you don't put some sort of lighting into a self9 contained unit, we make add-on kits for later field

10 services because people ask for them, and they're

11 usually separate cord-connected, because once we've

12 sold the unit, we can't control the UL listing if we

13 don't. But there are countless possibilities here of

14 when does it become integral, when does it not become

15 integral, when does it become --

16 MS. BARHYDT: So how often --

17 MR. HON: -- a separate --

18 MS. BARHYDT: -- do they not have a separate

19 cord? Because I think once it has a separate cord

20 MR. HON: We'll get into other areas where

21 that can

22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.
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1 MR. HON: There's just a couple other areas

2 where that's very serious.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Okay.

4 MR. HON: But in lighting, very seldom do

5 they have a separate cord.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So is the description of the

7 customer display signs that Collin has up there still

8 too vague, or do you feel like that clearly states the

9 parameters?

10 MR. HON: You're -- it has an inherent

11 ability to be circumventing the idea because if people

12 decide they're running tight on energy, as energy

13 standards continue to get tighter and tighter and

14 tighter, then when do they redesign their unit to not

15 have a display light on it? And then suddenly they all

16 become independent. There's no good answer.

17 MR. WEBER: Are there service or functional

18 or other barriers to why everybody wouldn't want a plug

19 powering their lighting, why they'd want it to be

20 hardwired? I mean, I could think of potentially some.

21 MS. BARHYDT: It sounded like the stores

22 don't necessarily want all the extra plugs.
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1 MR. HON: And circuits.

2 MR. NESHAN: Oh, yeah, that's really cheap

3 for them, because they have -- again, they have --

4 imagine they have their own conduit. There's all the

5 work involved, and they don't want to do it.

6 MR. RIVEST: This is a product that was --

7 the standard was set by legislation, and the --

8 MR. NESHAN: And efficiency --

9 MR. HON: No, it depends on which part --

10 see, the problem is this isn't crossing over.

11 MR. WEBER: Self-contained with doors is set

12 by legislation. Open cases, everything else, ice cream

13 freezers, set by DOE in '09.

14 MR. RIVEST: So where it was set by DOE, we

15 can go back in the announcements and see if we included

16 in our energy budget any display lighting at all. I

17 doubt we did.

18 MR. HON: Right.

19 MR. RIVEST: But what was set by legislation,

20 it would come back to the definition of the product.

21 MR. HON: Right.

22 MR. RIVEST: In many ways, it would be easier
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1 to just exclude anything that's not lighting the

2 product, anything that is an advertising or

3 illumination.

4 MR. HON: That's where --

5 MR. RIVEST: You know, it's not that --

6 that's indication --

7 MR. HON: That's where the problems exist.

8 Internal lighting, no one's arguing internal lighting.

9 That's integral to the product. The second comment is

10 advertising. And you look at the -- because we make

11 free -- 90 percent plus freestanding equipment. The

12 advertising is usually a big nameplate, some big, fancy

13 decal on the side of the cooler, possibly lighted back

14 -- well, almost always illuminated top panel lighting,

15 big, glowing lights in the door so you can see the

16 product, decals on the end or lighted panels on the

17 end. And sometimes they'll want to put something on

18 the top of it.

19 So eventually, you come to the point where

20 some of this stuff is not factory-installed, or it

21 could be factory-installed, but it's not normally

22 produced. Our base model would be a box with decals on
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1 either side, which make no difference. A lighted sign

2 panel, lighted door, internal lighting, all of it's

3 showing up, that would be our standard base model.

4 But if someone wants to put a TV monitor on

5 top with a rolling advertisement in it, because it is

6 still built onto the unit, and quite often they want to

7 draw power from the unit, it is a question how far do

8 we go with this project?

9 Because dry goods, separate cases, I

10 understand that completely. We're not into that

11 business very much. We make a few, but we could easily

12 just tell them to buy them from somebody else, or we

13 ship them on a separate PO, and they would just sit on

14 top, and it wouldn't make any difference to us, because

15 they would be separate cord-connected items.

16 But when you get into the grocery store

17 business, it's not like that. They want everything

18 plugged into that counter, turn on the switch when the

19 store opens up, and the whole back of the store just

20 goes -- it lights up, all with one flick, and all the

21 product is then illuminated.

22 And that's what -- because I have a tough
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1 time -- just making a comment here, because this is a

2 tenth of a percent of our business at the most, but for

3 them, it's not that way. That's why I'm trying to

4 defer to Ron and those guys in the grocery store

5 business that do this all the time.

6 MR. NESHAN: I'll give you another example of

7 dividing of merchandise. A service department -- so

8 you go deli departments or, you know -- usually have

9 glass on these service over counter, as is defined in

10 the standard. A lot of times, in front of it, they put

11 a -- they display bread. And sometimes they ask us to

12 put light for -- to shine on that bread.

13 It has nothing to do with their refrigerated

14 case. You know, it's really for convenience for the

15 customer, so he wants to have light on the bread that's

16 sitting outside, on the floor. They want to have light

17 for it. That light should not be counted toward the

18 energy consumption of that display case. That's only

19 for the convenience of the customer and nothing else.

20 The performance of the case would not have -- would not

21 be impacted by that light.

22 MR. SHEBIK: And based on your description,
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1 Massoud, I would agree with you, because it's customer2 specific, it's low-volume, and it has nothing to do

3 with the refrigerated product.

4 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah.

5 MR. LEMMOND: And in that case, imagine -- if

6 you don't provide that service to the customer, they're

7 going to put another light on it that will ultimately

8 be less efficient and over -- likely use more energy.

9 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point

10 brought up because that's one of the things that you're

11 preventing here is you know the installation's being

12 done right, you know the wiring's being done right.

13 You don't have to worry about a third party coming in

14 and trying to do add-ons in the field. So that's -- I

15 mean, and that's not part of the DOE industry concern,

16 but it is an issue, when you're looking at safety and

17 everything else, correct wiring procedures and stuff.

18 MR. NESHAN: And one thing else that, again,

19 is for the product convenience, imagine we do not

20 supply the light. The electrician comes in the field,

21 does something, and he's not going to run a simple

22 conduit. He's going to somehow hook it to the existing
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1 wiring that's in the case. That immediately voids the

2 warranty that we have because now they'll have tampered

3 with electrical as far as the UL is concerned. The

4 customer is now all of a sudden stuck here, you know,

5 has equipment that doesn't meet UL standard, might not

6 even meet the building code.

7 So if we do some of these things, again, for

8 the convenience of our customers, do we make money? Of

9 course. I saw it was a business decision, but then

10 this really has nothing to do with the performance of a

11 refrigerated case if you're trying to, you know, to

12 work on here and come up with a way of working around

13 it, you know. What is the energy consumption of the

14 refrigerated or freezer case?

15 MR. BALLO: I guess what concerns me is that

16 if a case has transparent doors, is it going to be

17 ambiguous about whether lighting that's external to the

18 case is actually illuminating product that's in the

19 case, or is that going to always be clear? Because it

20 seems to me like if you have something that's hung over

21 and it's, you know -- like the case of the lamps that

22 are hung over and shine back into the case, if you
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1 position those, you know, so they're mostly down to

2 illuminate the bread or whatever you have in front of

3 it, then maybe that's not illuminating in the case,

4 but, you know, how much of that angle needs to be there

5 to --

6 MR. NESHAN: Well, if that's the argument,

7 then I'll have to tell the store people, "Well, the

8 light you are putting up on the Then you have to count

9 the ceiling lights because it's illuminating the

10 product.

11 MR. BALLO: Well, it's a different plug.

12 MR. NESHAN: Well, I can put in this

13 different plug too, then. But we're not trying to, you

14 know, dance around the issue. We're trying to be

15 really practical and, you know, something that works,

16 you know. We don't want to -- excuse me if I use the

17 word -- we are not trying to cheat or find a way around

18 it. We are trying to come up with something that's

19 workable for everybody who's concerned.

20 MR. BALLO: But if someone were to try to

21 cheat, I mean, would this be something they could try

22 to do, is to monkey around with that, with their
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1 lighting, and say it doesn't actually illuminate

2 something that's internal to the case?

3 MR. NESHAN: I mean, if -- people who want to

4 cheat, they are going to cheat. If I want to cheat in

5 the refrigeration, I'm going to put dry ice in the case

6 and say the case requires dry ice for performance and

7 would always meet energy efficiency standard, but

8 that's not the right way of doing business, and, you

9 know, it's not in the spirit of meeting their

10 standards.

11 MR. RIVEST: So in my mind, there are things

12 that are clear and things that are a little murky. So

13 what's clear is that if it's lighting that's inside the

14 case and lighting the product, that's measured --

15 MR. NESHAN: No, actually --

16 MR. RIVEST: If it's external to the case and

17 it's illuminating a product between shelves, or if it's

18 like a clearly separate sign, that's one thing.

19 MR. NESHAN: Right.

20 MR. RIVEST: The category I'm not clear about

21 -- it sounds like there is, in every unit, some amount

22 of display lighting on the sides, or there's no --
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1 MALE SPEAKER: The front.

2 MR. RIVEST: In the front, and that --

3 MR. HON: In glass-door units, that is 90

4 percent a true statement.

5 MR. RIVEST: So if it's there 90 percent of

6 the time, I think that has to be accounted for. And

7 where the slippery slope happens for us is that when we

8 get into the BVMs, I mean, they all have lighting, and

9 that's definitely a big part of energy data. So I

10 don't think we want to say that all sign lighting is

11 out, but how would you define the basic sign lighting

12 in your system?

13 MR. HON: The problem is is that the way we

14 would define the basic sign lighting in the system

15 could be taken off of -- if -- a pure internal lighting

16 is -- no question about that.

17 Customers sometimes want to add to it, but

18 that still, again, falls under the customer's

19 responsibility for us to say, "We can go this far, but

20 no further," because we have customers that want 200

21 percent lighting compared to what we normally put into

22 a unit.
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1 Sometimes we have seen those numbers where

2 they wanted 200 percent, and they've put us above the

3 energy level and we said, "We can't do it. We're down

4 to 150 percent of the lighting. That's just what it

5 is. You can't have any more." Because our definition

6 of a base model says, "This is what we're selling.

7 This is what we're doing. We can't sell you any more."

8 And they're not happy with that information,

9 but I don't care. We're trying to be -- we're not

10 going to put ourselves in any question at all,

11 especially at this time during all this going on with

12 the government.

13 But the questions come, when do you define

14 the external marketing lighting as marketing product

15 and no longer part of the case? Do you agree with

16 that? And that's the hard one, because there are so

17 many different angles you can play it.

18 MR. RIVEST: Well, you're going to have to

19 help us, because --

20 MR. HON: Yeah. That's what we're trying to

21 do.

22 MR. NESHAN: If the light is used to
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1 illuminate the product in the refrigerated area, that

2 should be part of the --

3 MR. RIVEST: The energy budget.

4 MR. NESHAN: -- energy consumption of the

5 refrigerator. If it is used to illuminate the product

6 sitting outside of refrigerated area, has nothing to do

7 with the refrigerated compartment, that should not be

8 accounted for, because every customer would have a

9 different idea of trying to illuminate what is sitting

10 outside of the case.

11 But if you're, you know -- if you want to

12 illuminate inside of the case, whether you have a deli

13 product, produce, or beverage, whatever you have,

14 that's a different -- I mean, that is part of the case.

15 That should be used toward the energy consumption of

16 the display case.

17 MS. BARHYDT: So I can imagine on the side,

18 maybe you have a rectangle that is backlit, and it says

19 the name brand of the product that is in the case, and

20 that lighting, it's advertising, but it's advertising

21 what that case is for, and to me that seems much more

22 part of the case, whereas if you have a spotlight
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1 that's got like a -- I'm picturing like an elementary

2 school frame that the teacher comes in and changes the

3 little sign in it every day about what they're going to

4 talk about for the day, it just -- to me it's like that

5 little frame thing that's just interchangeable, and it

6 has nothing to do with what's inside the case.

7 MR. NESHAN: Okay.

8 MS. BARHYDT: To me, that seems a little

9 different, but I don't know that we would actually want

10 to make that distinction.

11 MR. NESHAN: But here's -- for example, if

12 you have a beverage case, an alcoholic beverage case,

13 low alcohol content beverage, okay, and they usually

14 have these neon signs, right, that advertise; you know?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

16 MR. NESHAN: They'll put that on the top of

17 the case. They plug it in. Is that part of the case

18 manufacturer, to be responsible for the power

19 consumption of that neon sign? Because it's

20 advertising what is sitting inside that refrigerator,

21 right? That has nothing to do with the energy

22 consumption of a refrigerated case.
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1 MR. BALLO: So the statutory definition says

2 that a commercial refrigerator displays or stores

3 merchandise.

4 MR. NESHAN: Correct.

5 MR. BALLO: And to me, that marketing, you

6 know, the sign is part of the display of the --

7 MR. NESHAN: No, sir. That's part of

8 advertising. It's not part of the display. It's

9 advertising. They'll put a big neon sign also

10 outdoors, says, "This brand beverage is sold inside."

11 Should now we have -- also contribute that to the

12 energy consumption of the display case? Because that's

13 what's inside that case then.

14 MR. BALLO: Well, again, that would be a

15 different product, a different plug. It's not

16 connected to the equipment. I mean, I hear what you're

17 saying, that if you don't do it, people are just going

18 to do it themselves, and I don't want that to be the

19 situation, but

20 MR. NESHAN: Well, we would advise them to do

21 that. Tell me, there -- I mean, if you want to -- we

22 tell them, "Listen, no, you do it yourself." So
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1 basically defeats the purpose of trying to have more

2 efficient equipment.

3 MR. RIVEST: You know, I come back to we have

4 to set standards one day, and when we set standards,

5 we're going to define what is our base unit, and it's

6 going to say, you know, it has interior lighting that

7 has to have this many lumens or whatever.

8 And if there's display lighting, it's going

9 to be factored into our budget, and then we're going to

10 bring the standard as stringent as justified by

11 changing out the lights in that display. But if it was

12 never part of the analysis, it can't be part of the

13 enforcement. The difficulty is that we didn't actually

14 regulate those things. They were legislated.

15 MR. HON: The self --

16 MR. RIVEST: Now, weren't we in the process

17 of --

18 MR. HON: The self-contained --

19 MR. RIVEST: -- regulating --

20 MR. HON: -- ones are statutory.

21 MR. RIVEST: Right. Yeah.

22 MR. HON: But we're in the process now?
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1 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, DOE's in the process of

2 reviewing standards for the legislative and the ones

3 that it sets for --

4 MR. HON: Right. And you defined, when you

5 did that, whether or not there was lighting outside for

6 marketing purposes?

7 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in

8 the modeling, they counted for an idea of what the

9 different classes would entail, and that's shown in the

10 pre- analysis technical support document, Appendix 5A.

11 It shows all the baseline engineering assumptions that

12 went into building up an analytical model --

13 MR. HON: So there has to be consistency

14 between that and enforcement?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh, yeah.

16 MR. HON: You're either both in or both out.

17 MR. RIVEST: Yeah.

18 MR. HON: And I don't know what the answer

19 is. We'll have to go check.

20 MS. BARHYDT: We'll have to go look at some -

21 -

22 MR. NESHAN: (Inaudible) display case, they
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1 also ask manufacturers to supply a part to they can

2 plug into a scale, the electronic scale. They also

3 sometimes, they want to have a plug to plug in their

4 slicer. So now all of a sudden you have to account all

5 those energy consumptions --

6 MR. BALLO: But this is stuff --

7 MR. NESHAN: -- as part of the display case.

8 MR. BALLO: But this is stuff you're not

9 making, though. You're just giving them a --

10 MR. HON: That isn't necessarily a true

11 statement. Quite often, deli cases are sold with a

12 scale.

13 MR. BALLO: Okay.

14 MR. NESHAN: But, by the way, that neon light

15 that goes in the case, that's not also manufactured by

16 case manufacturers. It's built by someone else. Okay?

17 MR. BALLO: Well, if you're not making it and

18 you're not supplying it and you just send them a case

19 and they plug stuff into it, I mean, even if you just

20 supply a plug for them to -- you know, or a mounting

21 bracket for them to install stuff onto it, I don't

22 think that needs to be part of the test procedure. But
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1 I guess it's different if you're giving them the neon

2 sign also and it's already bolted to the equipment when

3 it leaves your factory.

4 MR. HON: Well, you're going to run into

5 several more items coming the same direction.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So going back to -- for the --

7 MR. SHEBIK: Can I offer a suggestion?

8 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead.

9 MR. SHEBIK: Can you hear me?

10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

11 MR. SHEBIK: First of all, let's keep the

12 convenience outlet separate from this part of the

13 discussion, I think. A convenience outlet for a scale

14 or whatever is a totally separate line item. But as

15 far as lighting goes, I mean, I think Charlie's there.

16 Maybe he can show you a picture of a glass-door

17 merchandising case so everyone's aware, when we're

18 talking about sign panel and interior lighting and what

19 that all means, as opposed to a customer-driven

20 advertisement that's on a case.

21 But every -- as far as I know, every glass22 door merchandise case, you know, especially self-
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1 contained cases, remote also, have some kind of means

2 of illumination for products inside the case, whether

3 it be marine lights, door lights, shelf lights, canopy

4 lights, whatever, there's some means to light the

5 products inside the case. That's -- we're all in

6 agreement that that needs to be tested. That's not a

7 problem.

8 Most merchandising cases -- I mean, I'm aware

9 of self-contained cases have a sign panel in front of

10 them that's normally illuminated. I don't think that's

11 an issue. I think everyone understands that. If you

12 have some other type of external light that's based on

13 a customer publications, brochures or whatever, is used

14 to shine on the product, then I would think that would

15 be included with some kind of lighting system that's

16 for illuminated product.

17 But I think that would be part of the

18 manufacturers' kit option or offering or whatever for

19 illumination, as opposed to no type of external

20 lighting that's used for advertising or something like

21 that. And I think, based on what the customer offers

22 for their product line, could be used to define what is
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1 case lighting and what is additional lighting or

2 advertisement lighting or customer-driven light. Did

3 that make sense?

4 MR. RIVEST: Yes, until we run into a

5 problem. But, I mean, in principle, yes. I think if it

6 came up with the general principles here, then all the

7 -- and ran our cases, our situations through it, we

8 might see if it makes sense. But in my mind, we define

9 the box that we're refrigerating. Everything that's

10 contributing to the lighting of the product and the

11 boxes is fair game.

12 It sounds like there's an amount -- a basic

13 amount of illumination on the sides that is also fair

14 game, and then after that is where, you know, things

15 might be excluded, because when we do the regulation,

16 we wouldn't be creating a separate product class for

17 every imaginable add-on. That just wouldn't -- that

18 would put us in the business of regulating scales and

19 regulating all sorts of things.

20 MR. SHEBIK: That's correct, and if DOE is

21 going to -- or someone's going to verify this, you're

22 not going to purchase protect a customer's specific
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1 modified case that has all kinds of external lighting

2 attached to it. That would be a customer-driven product

3 item. It wouldn't be something that would be a general

4 offering to the public. Did that --

5 MR. RIVEST: We would only do it if we

6 thought that it was circumventing the intent, so

7 MR. HON: That gets us in a legal issue.

8 We're under contract to never sell market -- certain

9 marketing products to anyone but that particular

10 customer because these are all copyrighted and

11 advertised specials. Do you understand what I'm

12 saying?

13 MR. RIVEST: I hear what you're saying.

14 MR. HON: And do you understand what I'm

15 trying to -- the big players of the world do not like

16 their product in anyone else's hands but their own.

17 MR. RIVEST: That's an interesting one.

18 MR. HON: So we couldn't sell it to you.

19 Then we would have to come back with something where we

20 would strip the signage out and make the same product

21 as a new SKU, same as, except no sign panels, and then

22 we could sell it.
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1 MR. RIVEST: Then it would have the same

2 lights, just not the

3 MR. HON: Yes. But we would have to create a

4 product to do that, even though it would fit under the

5 same definition of the base product.

6 MR. BALLO: To me, it seems like if DOE says

7 we need to buy this product or, you know, we need to

8 get this product for testing, you have to supply the

9 product.

10 MR. HON: It would take some work to get it

11 to happen, but it would happen. There would be no

12 question. We would supply the product.

13 MS. BARHYDT: And that's lit up?

14 MR. HON: Oh --

15 MS. BARHYDT: And that's lit up?

16 MR. HON: -- the sides are not lit up, except

17 --

18 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, the side is not lit up?

19 MR. HON: No, they're -- what happens is in a

20 -- quite often in self-contained equipment, is people

21 will literally put a whole row -- or put it inside of

22 something else, where the face is the only thing that's
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1 seen. If you go to the airport, you'll see the face of

2 a lot of our units, but nothing else, and the sides are

3 not lit up.

4 MR. RIVEST: May I see that?

5 MS. BARHYDT: Do they offer it with the side

6 lit up?

7 MR. HON: Yes, we do.

8 MS. BARHYDT: May I pass this over?

9 MR. RIVEST: Sure.

10 MR. HON: Again, that's a specialty product,

11 but it can be done, and we would include the side

12 lighting in our definition of the product.

13 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, I mean, that's a lot like

14 a soda machine. You would have to do that.

15 MR. HON: But there are times when a customer

16 wants something stuck on the top.

17 MR. RIVEST: So the sides and the top back

18 light?

19 MR. HON: Because quite often, you'll have

20 them this tall, and it's perfect for line of sight. So

21 that's when it gets dicey, because the standard product

22 does not have the top of the stuff here.
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1 MR. NESHAN: Assuming they use that for

2 displaying chips on the side or some of this stuff --

3 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, that's pretty -- I think

4 that would fit on the integral

5 MR. HON: That product there, everything that

6 -- unless you put it on top of it is the only question

7 I have.

8 MR. RIVEST: Do you have an example of a

9 light kit I could see that's supplied by you?

10 MR. HON: I don't know if we have any in our

11 catalog, public or not.

12 MR. WEBER: I think this needs to be at the

13 end somewhere.

14 MR. RIVEST: It's excluded if one or the

15 other.

16 MR. WEBER: I think it needs to be at the

17 end, though, because this way if it's not integral to

18 the case, it will be excluded, so you could have all of

19 your interior products lit by

20 MR. HON: It just means your sentence has to

21 be longer.

22 MR. WEBER: Well, we can work on it.
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1 MR. RIVEST: Well, for us, certainly, you

2 know, links to examples would be really good when we

3 come to write the exact definitions or the proposed

4 definitions, examples of what's in and what's out.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, if you all have -- if

6 anyone has pictures on their websites of specific

7 products that they have questions about or are

8 considering, by all means, please email those, and --

9 or stick them all in a document and post it up on the

10 SharePoint site, where everyone can see them, and we

11 can be -- everybody can be looking at those before the

12 July 1st-2nd meeting as well, just to make sure

13 everybody's got the same mental image of what we're

14 talking about for all of these things. I think that

15 would be helpful.

16 Any other comments on the customer display

17 signs light kits, or ready to move on to condensate --

18 heated condensate pans? Okay. So this is not

19 accounted for in the test procedure?

20 MR. NESHAN: It is accounted for.

21 MS. BARHYDT: It is accounted for in the test

22 procedure?
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1 MR. NESHAN: Yeah.

2 MR. HON: There are some questions, though,

3 in the test procedure.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

5 MR. HON: Okay. It says you run

6 stabilization of the unit, and then you run the test.

7 Under normal 75/55 conditions, 75 degrees Fahrenheit,

8 55 degree -- 55 percent relative humidity, there are

9 times when this unit would never turn on.

10 MR. RIVEST: So you don't need to -- this is

11 to evaporate the condensation?

12 MR. HON: In high condensation areas, outside

13 venues, air curtain -- especially in air curtain

14 equipment, the unit becomes a dehumidifier to some

15 level. In 55 percent relative humidity, depending on

16 the size of your drain pan and how you manipulate it,

17 you can have it where it never comes on or where it

18 comes on -- if you define stabilization as to -- that

19 it's filled to a standard point where that stays the

20 same, or you may actually be turning it on, it may take

21 several weeks to get to that point. We don't know.

22 But we have seen it only in long-term projects.
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1 But to make it easier to deal with, there are

2 some possible changes in the wording of the test

3 standard that could help us, because if everybody

4 started with the same level thought pattern -- because

5 you have different types of things.

6 If you -- you have a base drain pan, which

7 just collects a little bit of liquid. Then you have

8 what we call wicking kits, which are increased surface

9 area, no additional power usage, but basically it's

10 fabric stuck into the -- so it increases the surface

11 area there by increasing the evaporation out of the

12 drain pain.

13 Then you have what's known as a pump, almost

14 never used in grocery store applications because

15 they're drained, but in self-contained, they will put a

16 little- bitty -- looks almost like a fish tank pump.

17 With a little tiny hose running out of it, 25-feet

18 hose, and periodically it gets too full and pumps some

19 out.

20 The final stage is the worst-case scenarios,

21 which is in tropical climates where you have a fairly

22 large heating unit which is placed, and the water gets
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1 high enough, it starts heating the water and increasing

2 the evaporation rate. That's the true condensate pan

3 discussions.

4 And these things, under normal conditions,

5 will not generally show in the test standard, unless

6 the stabilization period is extended. That's what our

7 concerns are, because it can be two different ways you

8 can see it. It may take two weeks to fill up the drain

9 pain, but

10 MR. NESHAN: Especially for the corporate --

11 the many, there are doors on it, and then where's that

12 moisture coming from during the test, you know? Just

13 opening and closing, but the room conditions are also,

14 you know, controlled, so there's not enough moisture or

15 frost buildup on the evaporators to be defrosted and

16 then be collected?

17 As Charlie said, however, when you have an

18 open case, (inaudible) or not, that's a different

19 story, you know, and if we go to Hawaii, that's a

20 completely different story, but it all depends on the

21 test conditions. The test condition says 55. Doesn't

22 say 60 or 75 percent of humidity. Fifty-five percent
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1 of humidity.

2 MR. HON: It also does not define if -- how

3 soon do you start the test after you're first plugged

4 into the unit? Because the longer that pan is sitting

5 there, you may increase the level of it, or it may hit

6 a completely stable point.

7 MR. RIVEST: So just one thing I'd like to

8 understand. The pan is never drained anywhere, so --

9 MR. HON: In grocery stores, it is always

10 drained.

11 MR. NESHAN: Well, when you have a remote

12 display case in a supermarket, actually it's a plumbing

13 code. There is a building code, plumbing code

14 requirement that requires that thing to be drained into

15 a floor sink of some kind.

16 MR. HON: It's sanitation. They don't want

17 mold growing in it. So it has just a common sewer

18 drain like you would see --

19 MR. LEMMOND: We're talking less than 5

20 percent of the market with the heater, the heating pan?

21 MR. HON: In the self-contained -- the total

22 of the market is about 5 percent.
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1 MR. RIVEST: Because there's no requirement

2 for a pan?

3 MR. HON: But you just roll it up and there

4 it is. There may or may not be a drain in the area.

5 MR. NESHAN: When you have a self-contained -

6 - you know, in a supermarket, equipment is stationary.

7 It's not going anywhere, just sitting there. These are

8 massive display cases. There are drains on the floor.

9 When you have a self-contained case, a lot of cases

10 could even have the, you know, rollers or casters on

11 it. They're designed to roll them around. You can't

12 drain them into a floor sink. There's no such thing.

13 You can't have floor sinks everywhere in the

14 supermarket.

15 MR. RIVEST: So what I'm trying to understand

16 is the facts are in. Now you're saying the test

17 procedure doesn't measure the energy of that --

18 MR. HON: The --

19 MR. RIVEST: -- of the heater.

20 MR. HON: There's two different issues there.

21 MR. RIVEST: And I'm wondering why is that a

22 problem?
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1 MR. HON: Well, if -- depends on -- the

2 problem is there's a flaw in the procedure. If we

3 would take that test procedure -- okay. The rest

4 procedure requires stabilization of internal

5 compartment temperature, so the product inside has to

6 be stabilized for a 24-hour period. It doesn't

7 abnormality anything about the drain pan. So if you

8 meet stabilization inside the refrigerator, you start

9 the test, and 24 hours later, you're done.

10 MR. RIVEST: Right.

11 MR. HON: And if you get that thing early,

12 you will never see these units turn on.

13 MR. RIVEST: Right.

14 MR. HON: If you don't, you will see these

15 units turn on big-time, and they are big power

16 consumers, but they are seldom used. They're only for

17 particular environments. It is never a standard

18 product except in one or two unusual applications.

19 They're only for tropical-type climates.

20 MR. RIVEST: So the purpose of the test

21 procedure is to capture some technology as being more

22 efficient than others.
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1 MR. HON: Uh-huh. That's right.

2 MR. RIVEST: In this situation, I don't see

3 how you're going to get an improved electronic

4 resistance evaporator. Even if I put a bigger pan or a

5 smaller pan, I end up evaporating everything I

6 generate.

7 MR. HON: There's a certain amount of wattage

8 --

9 MR. RIVEST: Right. So why would it matter

10 that I'm not measuring it? Or are you saying you want

11 a level playing field --

12 MR. HON: The danger factor is if we send it

13 to a third party, they plug it in and don't start the

14 test for a week and a half -- I don't know.

15 MR. LEMMOND: So we -- does it make sense,

16 just to clarify the test procedure, just to say "Start

17 the test with no water in the pan"?

18 MR. HON: That is the simplest way to fix it.

19 MR. WEBER: Well, I mean, I can't speak

20 definitively, but one of the things to keep in mind is

21 that DOE test procedures are intended to mimic actual

22 operation, and in a store, the majority of the unit's
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1 life is going to be operating in the steady state. So

2 when you talk about a week or two weeks where the water

3 in the pan is, that might actually be more analogous to

4 what the unit will spend most of its life encountering.

5 MR. HON: And then our cost of testing will

6 start --

7 MR. RIVEST: Unless you start with a full

8 pan, you're saying?

9 MR. HON: Well, you would never start with a

10 full pan, because -- if you put one of these units in,

11 but then if you start with a full pan without one of

12 these units in, you're going to have a little of that

13 from the refrigerator, which, in normal conditions,

14 over a period of time, fluctuates, depending on the air

15 moment in the store and the humidity in the store. And

16 so it stabilizes itself without any additional

17 function.

18 MR. WEBER: Could we speak to what kind of

19 units these are standard? Because you mentioned that

20 they're fairly rare, and I thought they were pretty

21 standard on all open self-contained.

22 MR. HON: That is the only area that you see
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1 --

2 MR. WEBER: All open self-contained? Okay.

3 MR. HON: And you will see them on some --

4 MR. WEBER: Freezers?

5 MR. HON: No. No.

6 MR. WEBER: No freezers?

7 MR. HON: Occasionally, you'll see them on a

8 freezer, but it's never a stock item.

9 MR. WEBER: Okay.

10 MR. HON: We'll put a wicking kit or

11 something like that in way before that would happen.

12 Most freezers just go out straight.

13 MR. WEBER: Okay.

14 MR. HON: Because freezers traditionally

15 don't open as much as refrigerators.

16 MR. WEBER: Sure.

17 MR. HON: The air --

18 MR. SHEBIK: This is --

19 MR. HON: Go ahead, Ron.

20 MR. SHEBIK: -- Ron Shebik. Can you hear me,

21 Collin?

22 MR. WEBER: Yeah, Ron, go ahead.
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1 MR. SHEBIK: You know, I think -- I'm sorry

2 to jump in like this, but, yeah, I think you need to

3 treat -- obviously open cases are going to be affected

4 differently than closed cases, and remote cases are

5 different than self-contained on the -- remote cases

6 are primarily designed to drain to a floor drain, but

7 there are a few exceptions, very low percentage, where

8 the store didn't have a floor drain available, so they

9 may need an option like a heated drain pan on a remote

10 case.

11 But open cases have a much greater impact on

12 the heated drain pan than a closed case.

13 MR. HIERLMEIER: -- at Zero Zone. We provide

14 a number of customers that have to have the heated pan

15 and pump so they can pump water to a heating pan

16 because they don't want to cut floor drains. They're

17 in a remodel situation, taking over an existing space,

18 and they don't want to cut a drain in and spend $20,000

19 to put a floor drain in.

20 Initially, DOE did not analyze this as a

21 design option. For years, DOE, in the orientation

22 energy analysis, did not include it, so if we cut it
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1 out now, in effect, DOE is limiting the choices that

2 customers have. I thought originally, DOE was not in

3 mind to reduce customers' choices for product, and if

4 they were, we just would have cut open cases out

5 entirely because they use the most energy.

6 MR. RIVEST: Well, I mean, it sounds -- it's

7 a sort of not totally -- it's not totally related to

8 what we're trying to do. We need a common measure here

9 so that you're not punished if your heater turns on

10 during the test procedure. One way is just to turn it

11 off. The downside to turning it off, we wouldn't want

12 these to suddenly -- you know, everyone has them, and

13 no one pipes anything. Right?

14 MR. HON: That is not the normality. In the

15 grocery stores, it is much more economical to pipe.

16 MR. NESHAN: Oh, absolutely.

17 MR. HON: And a lot of the safety codes

18 require piping in grocery stores.

19 MR. RIVEST: Right. So the concern about not

20 being representative of the actual energy use, couldn't

21 you just deal with that by calculating the energy

22 that's needed to evaporate a certain amount of water
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1 based on the capacity of the unit?

2 MS. BARHYDT: But it sounded like the self3 contained opened, this was pretty common.

4 MR. HON: It's not unusual.

5 MR. WEBER: I mean, just to clarify and make

6 sure everyone's on the same page, if you go back to the

7 2009 analysis for the -- which included the open cases,

8 and you go to the current rulemaking pre-analysis, and

9 you go to the engineering appendices, where all the

10 data is there, you'll see that DOE did include an

11 average drain pan heater wattage and drain pan heater

12 run time in its analyses when setting the standard

13 levels.

14 So for those cases, I mean, you could

15 definitely provide comment on the assumptions that were

16 used, but for those cases where it's listed, it was

17 accounted for.

18 MR. RIVEST: No, but the issue is not that.

19 You have an average --

20 MR. SHEBIK: That was only for self21 contained, I believe.

22 MR. RIVEST: You have --
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1 MR. SHEBIK: That analysis was only included

2 in the self-contained cases, not remote cases.

3 MR. WEBER: I mean, the inputs to the

4 analysis varied by equipment class and were based on

5 manufacturer literature or manufacturer interviews. I

6 mean, I -- you know, there's currently 48 classes that

7 are being looked at, so I'd have to have it in front of

8 me, but for each one, it's accounted for where it's

9 appropriate.

10 MR. RIVEST: So, you see, you've given a

11 budget for these heaters.

12 MR. WEBER: Yes, it has been budgeted for.

13 MR. RIVEST: But the question is when they're

14 being tested --

15 MR. WEBER: Will it exceed the limit?

16 MR. RIVEST: -- it will either be way under

17 or way over --

18 MR. WEBER: Sure.

19 MR. RIVEST: -- because they don't operate in

20 steady state.

21 MR. WEBER: Sure.

22 MR. RIVEST: So we can mimic steady state by
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1 just giving the budget and adding it to the energy use

2 and not measuring it at all.

3 MR. HON: Right, but --

4 MR. RIVEST: I mean, there are ways of

5 dealing with it.

6 MR. HON: -- if we start off with a project

7 and say, "Okay, we're going to build, we're going to

8 test, and we're going to do multiple tests of a product

9 and thereby list the product in that number, because

10 our test facilities, we can hold the humidity very

11 accurately, and we will put a unit in, and as soon as

12 it's ready to run, we run it."

13 There are laboratories, which will put the --

14 a loaded unit up and have it sitting there running

15 outside of the test room to get it somewhat stabilized,

16 and thereby generated a continued amount of additional

17 water into the unit. And then when they're ready to

18 run it, they'll push it in there and put it in the

19 ideal conditions, which may have already tainted the

20 ideal conditions. We don't know.

21 MR. RIVEST: That's why I would -- I'd cut

22 the wire to the heater, and I would say, in the test
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1 procedure, "If your capacity is X, you add this many

2 watt hours per year," right there in your rating.

3 That's what I would do, and that would take into

4 account that you have a heater in your descriptor --

5 MR. HON: Okay.

6 MR. RIVEST: -- and it would create a level

7 playing field for people with big pans, small pans,

8 long -- you know, different test conditions, long --

9 MR. HON: But that also inhibits good

10 engineering practices, even though --

11 MR. RIVEST: Well, that's my -- the

12 underlying assumption here is that electric is

13 electric; right?

14 MR. WEBER: Well, there's controls, so if you

15 have it on a float valve as opposed to having it always

16 on --

17 MR. RIVEST: Okay.

18 MR. WEBER: A lot of these have a float

19 heater, like you see in like a -- like analogous to

20 what you'd see in a toilet tank, floats up, closes. In

21 this case, it floats up high enough water level, the

22 heater comes on; floats down, turns off.
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1 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, what would that matter,

2 again? Electric heaters, on or off, a hundred percent

3 efficient.

4 MR. WEBER: Well, someone could just leave

5 theirs on all the time if there wasn't any motivation

6 for having a float control.

7 MS. BARHYDT: And we've seen that before

8 MR. RIVEST: Really?

9 MR. WEBER: They just have it burn 24 hours a

10 day.

11 MR. HON: And it's terrible.

12 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

13 MR. HON: But just horrible power consuming.

14 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

15 MR. HON: If you do the just -- it's cheaper

16 to build that way. You just hardwire it. There's no

17 control circuit. There's no on/off switch. It just

18 runs. And you run a little bit lower wattage, but it

19 runs all the time. And when the water gets to it, it's

20 running. If the water's not --

21 MR. RIVEST: You know you're making an

22 argument here for running it for a week.
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1 MR. HON: It's a terrible thing to do because

2 you're going to burn up your heater. It's done every

3 day in some conditions. We believe that if you use

4 good engineering practices, you run your hot line going

5 to your condenser through the drain pan, you save a lot

6 of energy. We do that. As such, if we just put in the

7 plug-in number, we're suffering because someone else

8 doesn't do the additional --

9 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, this is exactly the

10 kind of thing where we try to use the test procedure to

11 make sure that we are making accurate measurements of

12 what performance is --

13 MR. HON: Uh-huh. Right.

14 MS. BARHYDT: -- to make sure we're not

15 incentivizing less efficient designs.

16 MR. RIVEST: Well, we got to the answer here,

17 is we need to have a full pan; it's --

18 MR. BALLO: Well, you could have two

19 different factors. You could have, you know, one

20 number you plug in if you have a -- you know, a

21 controlled heater, and then you have a higher number if

22 you don't have a control for the heater.
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1 MR. HON: But there's -- that doesn't account

2 for the possibility of alternate use of compressor heat

3 as evaporative. It could.

4 MR. RIVEST: You mean that could just be

5 another plug-in number.

6 MR. HON: Well, that can vary, depending on

7 how much line you run through your tank.

8 MR. RIVEST: You're making my life so

9 complicated.

10 MR. HON: I know, but this is an engineering

11 question that is complicated, and there's no perfect

12 answer.

13 MR. WEBER: Which is why, at the end of the

14 day, it might be easier to just get the test procedure

15 in a manner where you test with -- you know, get the

16 test conditions straightened out and test with it,

17 rather than having a couple -- three or four fudge

18 factors.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So, Charlie, when -- you

20 expressed a concern over something where the pan was

21 full.

22 MR. HON: Uh-huh.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Is it -- I mean, if we -- if

2 the pan was half full or if there was some minimum

3 amount of water in the pan, or --

4 MR. HON: Because we have to go through a 24-

5 hour stabilization period. If we would drain the pan

6 before the stabilization period started, would that be

7 relatively fair to everyone? Because --

8 MS. BARHYDT: But it sounds like most of the

9 time, then, the pan's going to be empty, and it's not

10 ever going to capture --

11 MR. HON: Depends on how you do it, because

12 you can -- if you have an open case, it will -- you'd

13 be amazed how much water it generates. Almost every

14 defrost cycle, you'll get a quart of water. You agree

15 with that, Collin?

16 MR. WEBER: I agree with that. At 55

17 percent?

18 MR. HON: Yes. It will pull a lot of water

19 out. In 24 to 48 hours, you're going to have quite a

20 bit of water in your drain.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We'll take a look at it.

22 MR. HON: We don't have a --
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1 MS. DANE: Mary at Traulsen (inaudible).

2 MS. BARHYDT: Mary, hold on just a second.

3 We're turning up the volume. Okay. Try --

4 MS. DANE: Okay.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead --

6 MS. DANE: This could be the first time I've

7 been accused of being quiet, but what I was wondering

8 is so if I understand what you said correctly; are you

9 going to change the test procedure or specify in the

10 test procedure the difference between a self-contained

11 cabinet and, say, an upright freezer?

12 MS. BARHYDT: It sounds like there were some

13 differences in DOE's analysis, so I think we're going

14 to have to go back and look at how we factor different

15 things in for different types of cabinets and then take

16 a look at what the actual language is in the test

17 procedure. So we're not saying any particular approach

18 at this point. We're just trying to get an

19 understanding of what the different factors are for

20 different types of equipment.

21 MS. DANE: Great. I just wanted to make sure

22 that I understood you were looking at a type of freezer
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1 by type of freezer basis.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, we're definitely looking

3 at this for different types of equipment in different

4 ways. We realize the commercial refrigeration equipment

5 covers a very broad spectrum of products with very

6 different characteristics.

7 MS. DANE: Right, okay. Okay. Thank you.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Sure. So condensate pipes --

9 MR. SHEBIK: Part --

10 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, sorry, go ahead, Ron.

11 MR. SHEBIK: Just real quick, when you're

12 doing your discussion or announce whatever, I would

13 also ask that you differentiate between a remote case

14 and a self- contained case, because, again, there's --

15 and I think it goes along a thin line with what Bruce

16 was saying earlier. Your remote case is primarily

17 going to be designed to have it bordering; it's going

18 to be the exception, when you have something other than

19 a bordering for a remote case, it happens, but it's

20 definitely the exception. If you look at the

21 percentages, it's going to be a very low percentage of

22 cases that use zone (ph) air as opposed to ones that
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1 have border -- or that have piping as well as

2 bordering.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Thank you.

4 MR. SHEBIK: Thank you.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Is the condensate pumps covered

6 by the discussion we just had, or is that something

7 different?

8 MR. HON: They would be the same situation.

9 MS. BARHYDT: It's the same issue of --

10 MR. SHEBIK: I agree.

11 MS. BARHYDT: -- whether or not there's water

12 in the pan or not?

13 MR. SHEBIK: Either they're going to pump out

14 the pan, or they're going to evaporate the water out of

15 the pan. They're going to do something to get water

16 out of the pan.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

18 MR. HON: Yeah.

19 MR. SHEBIK: They may then just use less

20 power, but quite often, you have no floor drain that

21 you can pump to, so you'll have a trip hazard.

22 MR. NESHAN: Well, in the remote cases, as it
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1 was stated, that using a pump is not a standard.

2 That's, again, done only for convenience of the

3 customer, because they should have a floor sink, but as

4 a remodel, they might not have. They said, "Could you

5 do this?"

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

7 MR. NESHAN: I mean, that's not -- would not

8 be standard piece of equipment --

9 MS. BARHYDT: That would not be --

10 MR. NESHAN: -- that we would be

11 manufacturing, you know, but it would be very specific

12 and special.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So getting to what Mike was

14 saying when he was trying to do little add-ons, is that

15 something that would be more appropriate for a add-on

16 type of situation, where if you're selling one that has

17 a pump, there might just be some add-on factor as

18 opposed to a

19 MR. RIVEST: A subtraction factor for a pump.

20 MR. NESHAN: No, I will tell the customer,

21 "Go start the pump yourself. We are not supplying it,"

22 because we don't manufacture the pump. We are just
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1 saying, "Go do it yourself." I mean, I don't have to

2 worry about it.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

4 MR. WEBER: So is the -- are the pumps

5 usually used in cases that would have a drain pan and a

6 wicking device or in cases where you'd have a heater?

7 MR. HON: The pump is only used when you

8 don't want to use -- you don't want to use any -- you

9 don't want to use the heater. You can put a wicking

10 kit in with a pump, but if the wicking kit is not

11 capable of handling as much liquid, then the first

12 priority or first choice would always be to sell the

13 pump. But we only sell -- last year we sold three

14 dozen of them.

15 MR. WEBER: Oh, okay.

16 MR. HON: And the problem is, is that it is

17 very cumbersome for a self-contained unit to run a hose

18 someplace else in the building a reasonably close

19 distance and find a floor drain without having somebody

20 trip on it.

21 MR. WEBER: You mean they don't just go out

22 the window?
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1 MR. HON: That has been done, but it's

2 illegal.

3 MR. NESHAN: Well, you know, we manufacture

4 self-contained case. Okay? There's a compressor

5 condensing unit, but it's so low to the floor that I

6 cannot put an evaporative drain pan underneath. So I

7 put a pump, put evaporative drain pan on the top, but I

8 count that as part of the energy consumption, because

9 that's how the case would perform. It will not work

10 without it.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

12 MR. HON: Yeah.

13 MR. NESHAN: Okay? However, if the same case

14 was not a self-contained, and they should have -- the

15 floor sink should have there, but I don't have -- can

16 you guys do this, because it's going to cost me $10,000

17 to do this. We can supply that, but I don't want that

18 to be counted against the energy consumption, because

19 that is not part of the design of that case. The case

20 would perform without it. It's only done for the

21 convenience of the customer. You see? And you said

22 three dozen? How many units do you manufacture per
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1 year?

2 MR. HON: That's not a public --

3 MR. NESHAN: Oh, I know, but it's in hundreds

4 of thousands of units.

5 MS. BARHYDT: A lot.

6 MR. NESHAN: You see?

7 MR. HON: There's a lot.

8 MR. NESHAN: Yeah. So consider the ratio.

9 It's not -- what I just said, we might do one a year or

10 two a year; maybe not even that many, but that's how it

11 is. Okay? So if the component is not required for a

12 proper function of a display case --

13 MR. HON: Right.

14 MR. NESHAN: -- and it's only done for the

15 convenience, you know, of the operator, I don't think

16 that should be counted, because that is not the

17 standard case for us.

18 MR. RIVEST: So how was the water drained

19 normally?

20 MR. NESHAN: Floor sink. They should put a -

21 -

22 MR. HON: Gravity.
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1 MR. NESHAN: The water comes out, goes into

2 the floor. Right? But he doesn't have a floor sink.

3 He doesn't have room for evap pan. He says, "Can you

4 put evap pan on the top and pump it?" Okay. For the -

5 - you know what we are going to do? We are going to

6 tell them, "Listen, guys. Here are the manufacturer of

7 evap pan. Go buy yourself. Here are the manufacturer

8 of the pump. Go buy yourself." All you have to do, get

9 a plastic tube, put the pump underneath, just people do

10 in their basements and all that, put the -- poke he

11 plastic tube through it, you plug it, don't worry about

12 it. Nobody's going to say anything, because it's not

13 covered by any standard, then. Right? Do you see?

14 MR. HIERLMEIER: This is Zero Zone --

15 MS. BARHYDT: Someone on the phone?

16 MR. HIERLMEIER: This is -- Zero Zone. I

17 mean, that's a similar situation to us, but we have a

18 number of customers that, for convenience, don't want

19 to cut their floor. They're renting space or leasing

20 space. And, you know, at the same time, we tell them,

21 "Well, you need to buy your own pump. You need to buy

22 your own condensate pan. You need to tell the
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1 electrician to run power to it."

2 And you can do that, but that adds additional

3 cost, and it's certainly less convenient, so they ask

4 us to attach that onto the unit. It's not necessary

5 particularly to make the unit run, but provides

6 convenience and lowers their installation costs.

7 Again, this all applies to --

8 MR. HON: It could be --

9 MR. HIERLMEIER: -- remote equipment, that

10 you sell the same case to the grocery store down the

11 street that's putting in a new store, they plumb the

12 drains into the floor. So the display case is using

13 the same amount of energy to cool the product. It's

14 just a matter of getting rid of the condensate that

15 changes the energy consumption.

16 MR. WEBER: So what I feel like we're hearing

17 here with condensate pumps is this is something that is

18 applied, not necessarily intentionally or, you know,

19 desirably by the manufacturer, but in cases where the

20 customers are using the products --

21 MS. BARHYDT: Almost in a way that it wasn't

22 intended to ever be used.
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1 MR. WEBER: Yeah, not as intended.

2 MALE SPEAKER: Right.

3 MR. WEBER: And what I was wondering is would

4 it be acceptable treatment -- I'm not proposing

5 anything, but would it be acceptable treatment under

6 the test procedure to say that remote cases will always

7 be the assumption of a floor drain and self-contained

8 units should always be treated in a manner such as that

9 the condensate is always dealt with on board? So

10 whatever provision it comes with to be dealt with on

11 board, whether that's a wicking kit or just a pan or a

12 pan and a heater?

13 MR. NESHAN: Yes, except we do manufacture

14 self- contained cases that doesn't have evap pan,

15 because they have floor sink.

16 MR. WEBER: Okay.

17 MR. NESHAN: You see?

18 MR. WEBER: Would it be okay to say that the

19 basic model of a self-contained unit always has on20 board condensate treatment?

21 MR. NESHAN: One of them could be the floor

22 sink, yes.
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1 MR. WEBER: But do you make a model of self2 contained unit that always assumes a floor sink to be

3 present is what I mean.

4 MR. HON: We make drain pans assuming that,

5 and we'll just swap out the drain pan.

6 MR. WEBER: Okay.

7 MR. NESHAN: We assume that is part of the

8 case.

9 MR. WEBER: So you're basically --

10 potentially a basic model of a self-contained unit

11 would always come with a provision for dealing with the

12 condensate on board?

13 MR. NESHAN: That is the definition --

14 MR. RIVEST: You're not asking --

15 MR. NESHAN: -- of a self-contained case.

16 MR. WEBER: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

17 Exactly.

18 MR. RIVEST: You're not asking for an

19 exclusion for the pump --

20 MR. WEBER: Exactly.

21 MR. RIVEST: -- or the heater on a self22 contained case?
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1 MR. NESHAN: No, no, no, because, as I said,

2 we designed it that way.

3 MR. RIVEST: You're saying the same thing --

4 MR. NESHAN: We designed it that way. But if

5 we don't design it that way, customer comes and says,

6 "Can you do this?"

7 MR. WEBER: Exactly. Exactly.

8 MR. NESHAN: That should be treated

9 differently.

10 MR. SHEBIK: Collin, this is Ron Shebik.

11 Yeah, I review -- I think if I understand what you're

12 saying, I think a remote case -- I think the definition

13 of remote is that 99 percent of the time, it's going to

14 be designed for -- to use a floor drain, whereas a

15 self-contained case has a variety of options to get rid

16 of the condensate.

17 One of those options could be a floor drain;

18 it could be a condensate pump that takes the condensate

19 to a remote drain. It could take the condensate to a

20 remote heated pan, or it could just be a heated pan in

21 general. But I think with a self-contained, I think

22 you've got a variety of options out there to get rid of
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1 the condensate.

2 MR. HON: I heard one thing in there that is

3 different, they're going to have a problem with, and

4 that is a remote heated pan.

5 MR. WEBER: Which is kind of what I was

6 trying to get at with a provision of saying that for

7 testing purposes, self-contained units should always

8 deal with everything on board, so that way you get your

9 highest energy, everything taken care of,

10 configuration.

11 MR. HON: We would then have a base model, a

12 separate base model, for those which have -- the

13 condensate pumps are so minimal powered --

14 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

15 MR. HON: -- they're almost nothing. You

16 probably wouldn't even notice them in an energy test,

17 but the remote -- I mean, the heated drain pans are by

18 far the biggest power consumer. And there is a

19 difficult situation here, because capture of energy is

20 a fact. They do take energy. We try and minimize that

21 energy, but it doesn't make it go away. So the

22 situation comes, we just need to make sure that we're
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1 running a fair and equitable test, which would include

2 enforcement testing being fair and equitable.

3 So how do we do that? Because we can change

4 the criteria in so many different ways, because if we

5 start off and move it in with a dry pan just before the

6 test -- because the test right now starts two hours

7 after a defrost cycle. Should we be -- should we start

8 with a dry pan -- could we start with a dry pan 24

9 hours before the last defrost, or how do we want to do

10 this? Because the numbers will be totally different on

11 power consumption if, by chance -- and I know I can do

12 it on a lot of our units.

13 We would not hit the liquid level necessary

14 in the 55/70 testing for the first several days of a

15 test cycle. So, therefore, I could put it in my unit,

16 in my lab or a UL lab or anybody else's lab and come up

17 with a positive result by never really triggering

18 hardly any pump -- I mean, any heating action. But

19 then someone else puts it in a lab but does the

20 condensation, a lot of the cooling, pre-cooling in

21 advance outside (inaudible) and fills up the drain pan,

22 rolls it in, and lets it stabilize for 24 hours in the
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1 conditions, and they start the test with a lot more pan

2 and consume a lot more power because of the heater, and

3 that heater consumes a lot of energy. It makes a major

4 impact on your numbers, with a floater, without a

5 floater, irrelevant. We would never run one without a

6 floater, because your heater would consume more than

7 your unit would be allowed to consume by itself.

8 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

9 MR. BALLO: It sounds like what you're

10 saying, though, that even at 75/55, you'll eventually

11 hit a point where you start having to rely on that

12 heater to get rid of the water that's in the pan, so

13 MR. HON: Yeah, with a wicking kit or

14 something, probably not. At 75/55, it'll come out

15 pretty close. And we get rid of a lot of it by

16 different engineering practices. But I'm just saying

17 as an industry as a whole, there is potential major

18 difference between enforcement testing and standard

19 testing, that both were done in a valid condition.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Tim, I think the issue is that

21 some of the labs set it up outside of the humidity22 controlled area and they let it run for quite a while,
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1 so it's not running at the same -- it's not running at

2 test conditions for that week, so

3 MR. HON: And then they roll it in --

4 MS. BARHYDT: And then they roll it in.

5 MR. HON: -- for the 24-hour stabilization

6 period, and then they run the test, so it's in there 48

7 hours, but the test is already varied because of the

8 condition of the drain pan.

9 MR. NESHAN: I mean, that could be fixed with

10 a simple note, you know, before testing starts, make

11 sure -- or, you know, eight hours before the testing

12 starts, whatever, you know, that the drain pan is

13 empty. That's all.

14 MR. BALLO: But should the pan really be

15 empty, though, or should it be like half full or some -

16 - the reasonable amount it would have if you're

17 operating it?

18 MR. HON: That's what we're asking right now,

19 because we want a standard level. That's why I'm

20 bringing this up, is because I don't want to get into

21 an ambiguous situation here where I run a unit, DOE

22 buys a unit, they send it to somebody else's test lab,
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1 it gets tested, it comes more than 5 percent more

2 power, then I come and dispute the test, they run

3 another test, and we -- by fiddling and starting the

4 test out inside the lab area, it's a different result,

5 and then they've spent a lot of money, we've spent a

6 lot of money, and the test -- and what we end up with

7 is a big zero.

8 MR. RIVEST: I would prefer adders by

9 technology and some way in the test procedure of

10 checking what the technology is that you're using,

11 whether it's always on heater, a float, or a

12 MR. HON: If you run it always on heater,

13 you'll never pass the test. It won't work.

14 MR. NESHAN: That --

15 MR. RIVEST: No, I know, but what you're

16 describing is -- the only -- to get to steady state

17 conditions, you'd have to run it a long time, and what

18 you're describing, if it's -- you empty the tank,

19 you're really not -- I mean, it may not come on at all,

20 so --

21 MR. HON: That' exactly why --

22 MR. RIVEST: -- so the energy budget we
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1 factored into the standard is a --

2 MR. HON: That's --

3 MR. RIVEST: -- is a freebie.

4 MR. HON: That's why we're discussing it.

5 MR. RIVEST: Right. I didn't understand

6 earlier why we can't just have a -- start with a full

7 pan, because steady state, it's full.

8 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

9 MR. HON: It may not be full.

10 MR. NESHAN: Hold on. Let me tell you why

11 that will not fly.

12 MR. RIVEST: Why?

13 MR. NESHAN: If you have -- I know we have to

14 start the -- taking the measurement two hours after the

15 defrost has ended. Okay? Imagine if that thing is

16 full. From the minute you start the test, the heater

17 would be on, full blast, until almost when the test

18 ends. That heater would never shut off because your

19 pan is full, because by the time it's going down enough

20 to shut off, other -- this next cycle has come along,

21 and you end up dumping another gallon of water in

22 there, and here we go.
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1 MR. RIVEST: So it's unrepresentative the

2 other way?

3 MR. NESHAN: Yeah.

4 MR. BALLO: But what if you started with a

5 full pan before the period of warm-up, before you bring

6 the unit into the test room and run it for however long

7 you said, a few hours, to --

8 MR. HON: The minimum stabilization is 24

9 hours in the test room.

10 MR. BALLO: Would that be enough time to go

11 from a full pan to the normal --

12 MS. BARHYDT: A norm?

13 MR. HON: You would definitely have

14 evaporative actions by the heaters if it would start

15 out with a full pan. Eventually, you'd happen to catch

16 it where it was dumping off of a defrost into the pan,

17 so you would have that action happening.

18 MR. WEBER: But everyone would count that,

19 because -- that would happen to everybody, because the

20 test always starts two hours after the completion of

21 the defrost.

22 MR. NESHAN: Correct. Correct.
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1 MR. HON: If you have a defrost.

2 MR. NESHAN: If you -- right, if you have a

3 defrost. Depending on the case temperature and how

4 it's designed, you might not, you know

5 MR. WEBER: Would it -- so the ASHRAE

6 conditions, 75/55, are supposed to approximate standard

7 use --

8 MR. NESHAN: Right.

9 MR. WEBER: -- such as in a supermarket.

10 MR. HON: Yeah.

11 MR. WEBER: The DOE test procedure is

12 supposed to approximate standard use. So would it

13 allay enough concerns if it were just required or

14 guidance was provided that the entirety of the pull15 down, from loading on through to the stabilization

16 period, would have to be conducted at the test

17 conditions?

18 MR. HON: That would drive the cost of

19 testing skyrocketing.

20 MR. WEBER: Okay. That's what I thought, but

21 I just wanted to make sure.

22 MR. HON: Normally we would allot at least
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1 three days in a test room to run a test on a

2 refrigerator.

3 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

4 MR. HON: Open case, that would be longer.

5 That would probably take six to seven days in a lab --

6 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

7 MR. HON: -- thereby doubling or more than

8 doubling your lab time --

9 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

10 MR. HON: -- in that lab condition. Those

11 labs are very expensive.

12 MR. LEMMOND: Yeah. That would sort of be

13 analogous to doing break-in time in a lab for like a

14 large unitary piece of equipment, and there's really

15 not enough labs in the world to do that.

16 MR. WEBER: That's what I thought. I was

17 just curious.

18 MR. HON: It would at least double the time

19 in the test room.

20 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

21 MR. HON: And that's pricy. You've been in

22 our facilities. You know we have a lot of test rooms,
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1 but still, it's still a major cost. And then when the

2 DOE would send out a unit for testing, it would more

3 than double their cost because they're paying for that

4 test room.

5 MR. RIVEST: All right. Well, I suggest we

6 move on. I think we at least have identified the

7 problem; right?

8 MS. BARHYDT: We understand the issue. High

9 --

10 MR. HON: We put the nasty ones up front.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

12 MR. WEBER: Oops, sorry.

13 MS. BARHYDT: High-wattage doors.

14 MR. WEBER: Don't mind me. I'm just going to

15 put a couple more notes here.

16 MR. HON: High-wattage doors are usually used

17 as an option, especially on grocery store-type self18 contained cases, where the ambient humidity is very

19 high. Someone opens the door, looks at the ice cream

20 for a while, lets the door close, and they can't see a

21 thing inside that case.

22 MS. BARHYDT: And so it's the anti-sweat
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1 heaters --

2 MR. HON: It's -- yeah.

3 MS. BARHYDT: -- that are causing the high4 wattage --

5 MR. HON: It is -- the glass itself has

6 inherent -- it has a film on it --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

8 MR. HON: -- which is an evaporative film.

9 You can buy them. The lower the wattage glass, the

10 more expensive it becomes, because they have to get

11 that film very, very thin and very consistent to keep

12 the heat right.

13 MR. NESHAN: You know, basically same problem

14 for not just stores, but other display cases where you

15 have to -- for example, a service deli, where you have

16 single-pain glass. When it goes to a non-AHSRAE

17 standard room condition, where you have a 60, 65, 70

18 percent relative humidity, you have to heat that glass.

19 Otherwise, customers cannot see the product. There's a

20 sweating or condensation in the glass. So they ask us

21 to supply additional heaters.

22 Now, we design everything for 75/55, building
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1 codes requires -- everybody -- even DOE says 75/55, but

2 try -- there are areas, again, would say Hawaii that,

3 you know, it's very difficult. Stores that don't even

4 have doors, they're always open, people come and go. I

5 there are -- they ask us to put additional heaters, if

6 I may, or other means of trying to combat this high

7 humidity, you know. They don't want to spend the money

8 to air- condition or lower the humidity, but they're

9 willing to pay extra to run these cases, you know, but

10 that's their choice, you know.

11 MR. RIVEST: So what turns on and off this

12 film?

13 MR. HON: They can be either on all the time,

14 or some places will put a humidistat in so that it only

15 operates at certain internal store humidity. Actually,

16 you measure the humidity outside the unit itself.

17 MR. RIVEST: I guess I'm asking what test

18 procedure would they go on.

19 MR. HON: No.

20 MR. WEBER: Yeah, I mean, and I think that's

21 the important point. Mike's hit right on it, and

22 Charlie's second point. If they use a humidity
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1 actuator or other control device, then, you know, that

2 encourages good engineering practice, because in that

3 case, the test procedure serves as a check of ensuring

4 that they wouldn't come on when they shouldn't.

5 MR. HON: But, again, you get into marking

6 discussions on when should they? How long does it take

7 to clear the glass?

8 MR. RIVEST: Well, I think what we're saying

9 is that it doesn't need to be excluded from the test

10 procedure, because when you would be testing it, the

11 conditions under which you're testing them, the heater

12 wouldn't be on if it has a control.

13 MR. HON: It would be on 55 percent humidity.

14 It would be on --

15 MS. BARHYDT: Some of the time.

16 MR. WEBER: Some of the time.

17 MR. HON: Sometimes, yes, just dependent on a

18 lot of factors.

19 MR. WEBER: But if --

20 MR. HON: But it depends on which way you run

21 your humidistat. If you run it inside the chamber --

22 inside the test chamber, but outside the unit, or
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1 inside the unit, and they're -- people do both.

2 Because if it's running inside the unit, it gets kind

3 of --

4 MR. RIVEST: I guess I'm having trouble

5 understanding why we would exclude any of this, then.

6 MR. HON: I'm just bringing it up because

7 someone else asked about it.

8 MR. NESHAN: Why do you want to exclude it?

9 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, why wouldn't you want to

10 measure that energy, if it's needed for the product

11 offering under test conditions, which are not --

12 MR. NESHAN: Oh, I'm -- no, I'm not talking

13 about under test conditions. If under test condition

14 is not required --

15 MR. RIVEST: If it's not required under test

16 conditions, it shouldn't come on during test

17 conditions, and therefore it shouldn't be measured.

18 MR. SHEBIK: But it may be required under the

19 customer's application, under their conditions.

20 MR. RIVEST: That's fine, but then --

21 MS. BARHYDT: But so if we bought one and we

22 tested it and we tested it at test conditions, then
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1 either it's going to be a design that does not come on

2 and is therefore not factored in, or it's going to be a

3 design that it does come on, even if it's not

4 necessary, in which case, it will be counted.

5 MR. NESHAN: Well, the problem -- the

6 humidistat is part of the building energy -- I mean,

7 environmental control. Are you going to put that in

8 the lab, too?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it's --

10 MR. NESHAN: It's not built into the case.

11 It's tied into the -- some kind of store management

12 system, you know, energy management system that

13 controls the humidity in the store. That's the one

14 that they would be hooking up to the case that could

15 control it. Do you expect --

16 MR. RIVEST: No, it would have to be part of

17 the test chamber, because we're measuring the

18 conditions -- is it 55 percent?

19 MR. HON: Fifty-five percent humidity.

20 MR. RIVEST: Right.

21 MR. WEBER: Or maybe -- yeah, I mean, you

22 would have to be
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1 MS. BARHYDT: So you're saying that the unit

2 is sold with a sensor that is not functional on its

3 own.

4 MR. NESHAN: No, no, no. It's not sold with

5 a sensor. Sensor is part of the building. It's not

6 part of the display case.

7 MR. HON: We know of a couple companies that

8 put a sensor in there, but that's the exception rather

9 than the rule. A lot of these are on all the time.

10 MR. RIVEST: The sensor's not on.

11 MR. HON: The sensors will turn them off

12 occasionally. A lot of the stuff is running all the

13 time.

14 MR. RIVEST: How frequent -- how common is

15 this film?

16 MR. HON: Very.

17 MR. WEBER: I mean, so the issue here is that

18 --

19 MR. HON: No, there -- let me -- there's two

20 different things that happen here. Number one is there

21 are -- you're seeing high conditions. There are two

22 different -- there are multiple levels. Different
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1 people will put different wattages into their glass.

2 Some will put very low wattage, some will put moderate

3 wattage, and moderate wattage being the norm, and then

4 they will come back and have secondary doors, which

5 they will put on special needs.

6 Say that you're shipping a unit to Hawaii, or

7 you're shipping it to Florida and Disney World, they

8 would want the high-wattage heaters built into the

9 unit.

10 MR. RIVEST: The reality is once they're

11 shipped somewhere, they're on all the time.

12 MR. HON: In certain conditions, that's true.

13 MR. WEBER: The issue here that we run into,

14 in my perspective, is the ability to distinguish

15 special needs from poor engineering practice, because

16 today's high-wattage door for Hawaii was yesterday's

17 Anthony 101 off the shelf. So that's the issue. Door

18 heaters have come down significantly due to

19 improvements, and where do we draw that line as to, you

20 know, what's pushing the technology envelope versus

21 these special applications?

22 MR. NESHAN: See, the problem is that, if I
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1 may -- and excuse me for saying this -- is inability of

2 Department of Energy to enforce building codes, because

3 they can do it, to enforce people to start maintaining

4 the relative humidity that's required, so they come on

5 us to put -- they force us to do something that the

6 customers don't want to do it. They don't want to pay

7 for it, but we have the vehicle of trying to enforce

8 this. You see? Why isn't there enforcement to make

9 sure that the stores are dry? Because -- hmm?

10 But we as a manufacturer have to make a case

11 work. Design it for 75/55, but also design it so if

12 the customer wants to go to 65 percent of humidity, our

13 cases would still work, we'll still meet the

14 requirements, we'll still meet the standard.

15 MR. RIVEST: Well, do you -- does your

16 engineering analysis have these heaters, this film?

17 MR. WEBER: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

18 Absolutely.

19 MR. HON: The question is not if they're

20 there, but do you have increased wattage for special

21 conditions.

22 MR. WEBER: Exactly. And we -- the DOE
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1 models -- in its engineering analysis, it models what

2 would be counted during the test procedure, so

3 MR. HON: Right. And what did you model --

4 what wattage class did you model?

5 MR. WEBER: For a -- well, I would need to

6 pull it up exactly, but for medium-temperature

7 applications, our understanding is that you could go

8 with no heat on the door these days.

9 MR. HON: Right, that's common.

10 MR. WEBER: For low temperature, I want to

11 say, off the top of my head, you could get it down to

12 maybe 80 watts on the door, roughly; I mean the whole

13 thing, but don't quote me.

14 MR. HON: How big are the standard doors on

15 those units?

16 MR. WEBER: Thirty-inch-ish. Seventy.

17 Sixty, seventy-ish.

18 MR. HON: Okay. Thirty by seventy-two-type

19 thing?

20 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Did you understand the thing

22 about the sensor? I got lost.
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1 MR. RIVEST: I did, yeah.

2 MS. BARHYDT: You got it?

3 MR. RIVEST: Yeah.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

5 MR. RIVEST: It's basically irrelevant.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

7 MR. NESHAN: See, right now, door

8 manufacturers -- and I'm not just talking about the

9 doors that, you know, you -- in an upright display

10 case. Even with a semi-standing case, you see a lot of

11 glass, which some people refer to as doors, too. Doors

12 are -- some manufacture with double-pane, some

13 manufacture with single-pane. Even with single-pane,

14 if the store conditions are to ASHRAE standard, you

15 don't see any condensation. They're designed that way.

16 But just this week, I got pictures from a

17 customer, saying, "Can you add some heat to this glass?

18 Because it's really humid now. We can't control -- the

19 store is not designed for such humidity. But it rains

20 a lot, you know. Can you do something?" Well, yeah.

21 You could always add heat, you know, but that was not

22 the design. It wasn't poor engineering practices.
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1 It's just that the store operator doesn't have the

2 ability to, when it rains outside, to maintain the

3 relative humidity in his store, you see.

4 Now, that is bad engineering practices and

5 all, but that's how it is. That's the reality, you

6 know. So we do not go design these cases to have a

7 high wattage all the time, but there are instances that

8 they do ask, and that case would not require, for

9 proper operation -- and under ASHRAE testing standards,

10 would not require those heaters. So if I put those

11 heaters, and you happen to test it, don't count it

12 against me. Go talk to the store operator, say why

13 he's not holding his relative humidity in the store at

14 the appropriate level.

15 MR. BALLO: But as long as you test them,

16 conditions under which they wouldn't come on, if you

17 test them at the DOE conditions and they don't come on

18 a lot under those conditions, then

19 MR. RIVEST: Most payers know there's no

20 control --

21 MR. NESHAN: There's no control. They want

22 some cheap solution. Okay. It's a strip heater, very
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1 low- wattage heater. You put it on, it stays on.

2 Again, they'd rather to pay that little bit extra cost

3 at a time than upfront pay, you know, a lump sum, you

4 know. That's an operating cost versus the, you know,

5 capital cost. So there are --

6 MR. RIVEST: Are there other ways of doing

7 this than adding more heating?

8 MR. NESHAN: Yeah, there are a lot of things.

9 We blow air on the glass. A lot of people are blowing

10 air on the glass, you know, without any heat.

11 MR. RIVEST: On the inside?

12 MR. HON: By redirecting the fans inside the

13 unit, you blow the air toward the front of the cooler

14 and circulate; rather than back forward, which is the

15 preferred method for cooling, you go forward against

16 the glass --

17 MR. NESHAN: But --

18 MR. HON: -- because you're running drier air

19 into the front of the cooler and down. There's also a

20 clear plastic film that can be added to the doors. It

21 is very pricy, usually about $200 a door, but it will

22 knock this down a great deal too. We've tested it.
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1 It's -- we've used it on rare occasion, but it is a

2 very pricy item.

3 For our sized doors, because our size --

4 don't make as a big of doors, it's in excess of $100 a

5 door, but it's a one-time cost, because it is an add6 on, which does not make it conducive to condensation on

7 the glass, because you've got a plastic layer on it.

8 MR. RIVEST: Oh, this is a tough one, huh?

9 MR. LEMMOND: So there are --

10 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

11 MR. LEMMOND: There are a few units that you

12 sell that have high wattage, just to customers in humid

13 conditions who can't control their buildings to

14 specific humidity levels. So the question is whether

15 or not to make those particular units -- there's very

16 few particular units eligible for DOE enforcement

17 testing or not. What do you think?

18 MR. WEBER: Well, the greater question,

19 though, is is it going to cause a regression in the

20 market, where end users start purchasing those extreme

21 condition ones and then get looser with their HVAC

22 ones--
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1 MR. LEMMOND: Do they cost more?

2 MR. HON: Actually, the extreme ones are --

3 there's very little cost difference. Actually, the

4 lower wattage heaters are slightly more expensive

5 because they have -- the film application has to be

6 more accurate and very thin. The thicker heaters, the

7 higher wattage heaters, are cheaper. That's --

8 MR. HIERLMEIER: I think that's not -- that

9 may be for you -- Charlie, that may be for you, but you

10 shouldn't make that statement for the entire industry.

11 MR. HON: Well, that's fine. I just --

12 MR. HIERLMEIER: We don't find that --

13 MR. HON: That's fine --

14 MR. HIERLMEIER: (Inaudible) be careful; so

15 tell the DOE you're not talking for the entire

16 industry; you're talking for True Manufacturing.

17 MR. HON: That's exactly why -- that's why we

18 have multiple people in the room, so that everybody

19 else can voice their opinion, too, because I -- the

20 only cost I know is what I see, and that's why you need

21 to speak up.

22 MR. HIERLMEIER: Yeah. In Zero Zone, we
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1 supply higher heat doors for customers. We currently

2 require them to buy a controller so that they -- you

3 know, if they're tested at ASHRAE conditions, the door

4 heat will turn itself on automatically. But we do have

5 customers that say, "We're investing in a central

6 system," as Massoud was talking about. They're putting

7 in a central system, and they will cycle the heaters on

8 based on what their central system is.

9 MR. RIVEST: Could we -- could we --

10 MR. HIERLMEIER: And they come to us, and

11 they --

12 MR. RIVEST: Sorry to interrupt you. Could

13 we require in the test procedure that if there is no

14 sensor, one be installed for the test? Possible?

15 MR. HIERLMEIER: Well, then you -- if you

16 have no sensor --

17 MR. RIVEST: They won't let me ship that

18 without it.

19 MR. HIERLMEIER: -- then you never get the

20 warmer doors, I mean, because it won't pass the test.

21 So, you know, you need to either be able -- if you want

22 to pass the test, you want to pull that one in to a lab
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1 at random. You need to have a sensor to turn it down.

2 Otherwise, if we've added 10 percent heat to the doors,

3 that case won't pass the energy level.

4 It needs to get turned down at design

5 conditions, either through a control that's mounted in

6 the case or a control that's mounted centrally. The

7 customers don't want to pay for two controls if they're

8 doing other things with their controller in the store

9 and they're putting in a central system. They don't

10 want to say, "Okay, now I'm going to give Zero Zone

11 another chunk of change so you can put on a redundant

12 control that I'm going to take out of the circuit once

13 it arrives in the store."

14 Now, and we've asked some -- said, "Hey,

15 you've got to send us a letter from someone of

16 authority telling us that you have purchased and will

17 apply a central system to turn down the heat in these

18 cases, when it's at design conditions."

19 MR. WEBER: I don't have a copy of this

20 document with me, but Laura, I think we might want to

21 look at the -- I believe in the 2012 test procedure for

22 CRE, we set a -- maybe not set a precedent, but maybe
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1 reinforced a precedent for lighting, where lighting

2 controls that were only actuated in conjunction with a

3 central building energy management system were not

4 considered on the determination that DOE's regulating

5 the equipment at shift. So that might just be

6 something to draw from.

7 MS. BARHYDT: We'll have to look at it again.

8 MR. BALLO: But here the ASHRAE condition

9 would be the heaters run, right, so --

10 MR. WEBER: Well, I'm just referring to the

11 issue of controls on versus off the case.

12 MR. RIVEST: If there's no -- what's the ship

13 condition; that the heaters are on all the time, or not

14 on?

15 MR. WEBER: Well, I think that's what we're

16 hearing from --

17 MR. HIERLMEIER: If you're relying on --

18 MR. WEBER: -- Zero Zone versus --

19 MR. HIERLMEIER: -- on a central -- they'd be

20 on all the time until the central system takes control

21 of it --

22 MR. WEBER: Yeah.
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1 MR. HIERLMEIER: -- which would be in the

2 grocery store.

3 MR. RIVEST: Well, I mean --

4 MR. HIERLMEIER: So that's -- I mean, he's

5 relying on the end user to install the controls and

6 (inaudible).

7 MR. RIVEST: You said they're expensive. How

8 expensive are they compared to a $200 film, the

9 individual controls?

10 MR. HIERLMEIER: In a display case, you're

11 looking at $100 to $200 per display case.

12 MR. RIVEST: For -- really?

13 MR. HIERLMEIER: You know, and we didn't even

14 get into the point of daisy-chaining, where if we sell

15 four cases that'll be set side by side by side in a

16 store, you can put a control on one of the cases,

17 daisy- chain the four cases to run off that same

18 control, so you're only spending, you know, your $100,

19 $200 at one time. But if you pulled any of those other

20 three cases that didn't have that control, they would

21 exceed the standard, but they're designed to run as a

22 group.
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1 You know, we don't have any end users on the

2 call, and these are the guys that might start asking us

3 things or saying, "Hey, the way we read the

4 regulations, these are now your new limits." They get

5 kind of disappointed, because they look at it as added

6 cost, not -- without any benefit. I'm buying duplicate

7 controls that won't run. Gee, that seems real

8 efficient use of their fund. I have to buy an

9 individual controller instead of daisy-chaining it on

10 three or four cases that are sitting next to each

11 other, you know, for 10 percent of the cost. They just

12 don't understand that logic.

13 MR. RIVEST: Well, I only asked you the cost,

14 right?

15 MR. HON: There are other engineering methods

16 to control this as well. We cycle units off of the

17 door openings, so during extended off periods, the

18 heaters are never on. But that's, again, different

19 cases, because self-contained have a lot more serious

20 controls on that type of function than a remote case

21 can have. They're a different beast altogether. We

22 can build it into our system so that only during times
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1 of a certain amount of door openings, the heaters ever

2 come on.

3 MR. NESHAN: So and a good example of it is

4 the home appliances, you know those freezers, they

5 always have a switch; at least they used to have. The

6 one that I have at home has a switch for a humid area

7 or a non- humid area; you know, basically turn the

8 heater on, and it'll -- that's a manual switch. Okay?

9 In residential areas, maintaining relative

10 humidity isn't -- it's not that easy, whereas in a

11 supermarket, it's a little bit different. And if you

12 walk in a supermarket, you know, what Charlie was

13 saying, they manufacture self-contained, you know, one14 door, two- door, even sometimes three-door, you know,

15 but it's all within -- all the controls are there.

16 But for supermarket, where you have a line17 up, you could have a line of 20 or 30 doors, and these

18 are all made of separate cases are pulled together;

19 gives the appearance of one continuous line-up, but

20 there are different cases. Case could have five to six

21 doors per case. So it's very difficult to have control

22 per each case or per each door.
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1 I mean, so it becomes more complicated.

2 That's why they -- it's best to rely on a central

3 energy management system so that one sensor controls

4 every one of them. Now, if you have five cases, you

5 have to have five sensors, where do you put these five

6 different sensors? Each would read different number,

7 and then have different controls. You'd have to rely

8 on the electrician to wire them. So it becomes very

9 complicated, very expensive, and at the end, none of --

10 nobody's going to hook those up and

11 MR. RIVEST: I thought this was supposed to

12 get easier.

13 MR. HON: We're getting near our finish.

14 MS. BARHYDT: You all have any other

15 questions about the high wattage?

16 MR. NESHAN: And, by the way, it was DOE's

17 choice not to include higher humidity operating

18 conditions. If you go back to (inaudible), there's a

19 Class I, Class II display cases. DOE opted not to

20 consider anything but Class I display cases.

21 MR. WEBER: Is that an NSF designation?

22 MR. NESHAN: Yeah.
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1 MR. WEBER: Yeah. That's the NSF Type I?

2 MR. NESHAN: Correct. Correct. If you

3 recall, we said no, let's only deal with 75/55. Now we

4 are trying to somehow include this higher humidity

5 within this 75/55, and that's not -- makes it difficult

6 and complicated.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else on high-wattage

8 doors? Okay. UV lights.

9 MR. HON: UV lights are a problem, and we do

10 not deal with them at all. UV lights are used in meat

11 cases and specialty product, which has a high risk of

12 surface contamination. They are a heat source, big13 time heat source, because they have to be run -- you

14 cannot use LED lights for sanitation reasons. They

15 don't generate the right wavelength. They're getting

16 close, but they don't manage that. They're basically

17 put into units so that we don't get contamination on

18 the next surfaces.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi.

20 MR. HON: Big entrance.

21 MR. NESHAN: We have seen the use of UV

22 lights in produce display cases, in some dairy display
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1 cases, and even seafood, because, again, it's an issue

2 of, you know --

3 MR. HON: We don't sell them.

4 MR. NESHAN: What's that?

5 MR. HON: I said we don't sell them.

6 MR. NESHAN: Yeah, yeah, but, you know,

7 they're (inaudible) from time to time, and those are

8 MS. BARHYDT: And I assume that these are

9 additional lights in addition to any --

10 MR. NESHAN: Oh, absolutely.

11 MS. BARHYDT: -- normal illumination?

12 MR. NESHAN: Yes. Yes.

13 MR. RIVEST: And they provide no useful

14 illumination for --

15 MR. NESHAN: No, no. It's just to make the

16 operator's job easier. They don't want to have to

17 spend the time sanitizing, cleaning the cases. You

18 know, there's a shortcut on their end; again, trying to

19 cut costs. You know, in a supermarket operation, the

20 number- one cost is not energy. It's labor. They

21 sacrifice the efficiency in order to reduce labor

22 costs. So they're -- they do a lot of things to reduce
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1 their labor costs.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Do these run all the time?

3 MR. NESHAN: Usually they're on all the time,

4 unless when they have to clean them or do something,

5 and they have to shut -- they have to disconnect the

6 power, basically, but during the normal operation --

7 again, if you go to supermarket, you look at the

8 market, the meat cases, they don't empty those meat --

9 they don't take the meat packages out at night, you

10 know. They leave them in the display case so that they

11 --

12 MR. RIVEST: So it's more expensive for them

13 to purchase this system, and it's more expensive for

14 them to operate it?

15 MR. NESHAN: Yeah.

16 MR. RIVEST: So -- but they feel they're

17 getting some utility out of it?

18 MR. WEBER: Through labor reduction.

19 MR. RIVEST: Yeah.

20 MR. HON: And also spoilage.

21 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, spoilage

22 MR. RIVEST: Next.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anyone on the phone,

2 anything else to add?

3 Okay. Fan speed controls.

4

5 MR. HON: You can change your consumption by

6 dictating how you run your fans. It depends on how you

7 like your products.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's in the test procedure.

9 MS. BARHYDT: I was going to say how's that

10 not covered by the test procedure?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's covered by the test

12 procedure wholesale.

13 MR. HON: I'm just reading my -- there's a

14 lot of things that people wanted to put on the list.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Does anyone on the phone want

16 to comment on what the issue is or what the concern is?

17 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron. Hold on. I'm

18 trying to read something right now. Hold on.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

20 MR. SHEBIK: I'm trying to catch up on

21 events. Give me one second to get ready, to read an

22 email here.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

2 MR. SHEBIK: Is Jeff Bauman on the phone, by

3 chance?

4 MS. BARHYDT: He was.

5 MR. SHEBIK: He keeps losing connection, he

6 said, but he -- I believe he could speak more on this.

7 MR. BAUMAN: I'm here.

8 MR. SHEBIK: Hey, Jeff, I'm just trying to --

9 I'm trying to find your email. Could you -- did you

10 have anything to add on the fan speed control?

11 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. Can you hear me?

12 MR. SHEBIK: I hear you.

13 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. This was, in some cases,

14 not specifically, but sometimes the customers are

15 putting flowers or delicate products and they want to

16 reduce the speed of the fans so they don't dry out the

17 product. There's not a significant defect, and there's

18 not a high volume, but it is something that could

19 affect the energy consumption, actually bring it down

20 slightly. The reason for including it was just

21 basically whether that model would have to specifically

22 be tested, or models, as a separate model, you know,
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1 with something that has a relatively very low impact,

2 or whether that could just be included as part of the

3 basic model that it is similar to.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, so if you want to --

5 this is Ashley from DOE. You missed the part where I

6 walked in the room, but --

7 MR. SHEBIK: Darn.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- if you wanted to claim --

9 MR. SHEBIK: Welcome back, Ashley.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-huh. If you wanted to

11 claim the reduced consumption of the reduced fan speed

12 for these like floral-type cases, then, yes, you would

13 have to run your AEDM for a different basic model and

14 certify it that way. But I'm guessing that you

15 probably wouldn't make the claim of reduced energy

16 consumption, and if you don't, you can just lump it in

17 with the normal fan speed- based model.

18 MS. BARHYDT: So ultimately --

19 MR. BAUMAN: Okay, I've got you. To confirm,

20 the way the definition writes is if there is a control

21 or something that could affect energy, it would have to

22 be its own basic model.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: If you wanted to claim the

2 reduction in energy consumption.

3 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. We don't need to claim

4 the reduction; we can just include it as part of the

5 regular basic model?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

8 MR. NESHAN: Once we have defined what that

9 basic model definition is, though?

10 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But DOE is --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: This does need to be part of

12 it.

13 MS. BARHYDT: -- is definitely committed to

14 the idea that manufacturers can reduce their testing

15 burden, although, again, with an AEDM, that's a

16 different issue, but as far as just pure testing,

17 manufacturers should have the flexibility to group

18 their products to reduce their testing burden, and that

19 is the whole point of the basic model.

20 MALE SPEAKER: Good.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Illuminated temperature --

22 MR. WEBER: Display alarms.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: -- display alarms.

2 MR. WEBER: It just provides an alarm if the

3 cabinet temperature gets out of spec, is my

4 understanding; right?

5 MR. NESHAN: Well, it says illuminated. It

6 means there's power, using power. These are digital

7 temperature displays. Customers specify --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're not illuminated when

9 you run the test procedure.

10 MR. WEBER: Yeah, I think this is the key

11 right here. These only come on during an emergency

12 condition or when you get --

13 MS. BARHYDT: No, it sounds like you've had

14 some digital --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Standby would be, but they

16 wouldn't be illuminated; right?

17 MR. HON: The alarm would be the issue.

18 MR. NESHAN: The alarm is the issue, but --

19 MR. SHEBIK: Laura, let me -- can I add

20 something to this? This should -- my mistake. This

21 should have been broken out in two sections. The

22 illuminated temperature display and alarm should have
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1 been separate.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

3 MR. SHEBIK: An alarm, again, happens under

4 an abnormal condition when there's a problem with

5 temperatures. I think we agreed it's probably not

6 something that you would be testing because it only

7 comes on in your abnormal conditions because of a food

8 safety problem with the food product temperature.

9 But the illuminated display is one where you

10 may have some kind of a -- something other than a

11 typical, small, little LED-type -- or LCD-type display,

12 some kind of an illuminated display that does consume

13 power that provides the temperature of the case,

14 product temperature, or something else.

15 MS. BARHYDT: I'm assuming it would be a

16 very, very small number, but is there any reason why

17 that would not be included? I mean, I can't imagine

18 that that would not be captured by the test procedure,

19 just in the standard operation.

20 MR. WEBER: I think the issue here might be

21 not that it is or isn't captured, it's just, for this

22 little tiny thing, do they want to have to certify a
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1 whole separate basic model, I think, is what he's

2 getting at.

3 MS. BARHYDT: They don't have to.

4 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Again --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: If it's clearly in the test

7 procedure --

8 MR. SHEBIK: -- we have a special model

9 that's in the market or that we build, and we sometimes

10 do this as a bit of a different display. Again, the

11 energy consumption is very nominal, any difference, but

12 it is a difference, and, you know, would it fall under

13 the classification of, you know, the definition of

14 insignificant difference versus something that would

15 not -- I guess would not show up as a different model

16 on our list.

17 I mean, part of the question goes to when,

18 you know, we submit our 2,000 models or whatever, that

19 if there's -- you know, we had determined from sessions

20 here and from reviewing our models that, okay, that's

21 part of the other basic model, but then DOE or somebody

22 comes back and says, "Well, no, that's got a different
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1 display, so that should be a different basic model."

2 I just want to make sure we have

3 clarification on these items so we don't get -- you

4 know, we understand how many models we have to list,

5 the basic models.

6 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think we have ever told

7 a company that they had to make something a different

8 basic model.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Product classes.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, well, that's true. If it's

11 a different product class, so a different equipment

12 class for commercial refrigerated equipment, we're

13 going to tell you you can't have different product

14 classes in one basic model, but apart from that, you're

15 right. We have told people in that case, but that's

16 the only case I can think of where we've told them it

17 had to be

18 MR. NESHAN: Until there's a result, I would

19 assume anything that changes the energy consumption

20 would be considered a different basic model.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not true.

22 MR. NESHAN: But that's the standing --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: That is not the standing

2 definition. It just -- that is not the standing

3 definition.

4 MR. NESHAN: Because that's the only thing I

5 have in black and white.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not what it says,

7 though.

8 MS. BARHYDT: That's not what it says,

9 though. It doesn't say unless it has identical

10 consumption. It says essentially identical.

11 MR. NESHAN: No, no, no. I'm not talking

12 about in these and these.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: They have to have the same --

14 MR. NESHAN: I'm talking about in the DOE --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: It does not --

16 MR. NESHAN: -- document that is a part of

17 the document that was released. It says anything that

18 impacts energy consumption.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: It does not say that. It

20 says they must have the same certified rating. It's a

21 very different thing.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Where is the definition for
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1 basic model for these? Oh, there it is.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, it's the same thing;

3 essentially identical.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Identical. Would you like to

5 see it? It's in the right-hand page, in the left-hand

6 column; very, very bottom.

7 MR. RIVEST: Was it modified last week, or

8 two weeks ago?

9 MS. BARHYDT: No.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, that's the one --

11 MS. BARHYDT: It's the same one that's been

12 on the books forever.

13 MR. RIVEST: Well, it'll be modified by any

14 exclusions.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But the general premise

16 is that manufacturers can control how they group things

17 and what differences they do or don't want to claim in

18 terms of energy consumption. So if you have a

19 temperature display that takes a watt, and you really,

20 really, really want to claim that, you're free to do

21 that, but you are most assuredly not required to by

22 DOE.
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1 MR. SHEBIK: Thanks for the clarification,

2 Laura. I think that answers my questions.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Condenser flour?

4 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Flour filters?

6 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

7 MR. NESHAN: That is what is in the --

8 MS. BARHYDT: In the PowerPoint?

9 MR. NESHAN: In the slide. But how are the

10 other documents that I've seen -- it's been different.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, this is --

12 MS. BARHYDT: But this is the reg.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the regs.

14 MR. NESHAN: Okay. I understand.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

16 MR. NESHAN: But then what was been

17 published, you know, in these -- whenever in, you know

18 --

19 MR. HON: In different classifications, they

20 have different roles. The HVAC people have different

21 definitions than the others.

22 MR. NESHAN: Yeah.
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1 MR. HON: Not necessarily the same.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. But for commercial

3 refrigeration equipment, this one's been on the books

4 for a long time. Okay. Condenser flour filters, does

5 anyone know what the issue is?

6 MR. NESHAN: What was that, again?

7 MALE SPEAKER: Flour filter?

8 MS. BARHYDT: It says flour filters.

9 MALE SPEAKER: No, it's not flour.

10 MR. WEBER: Yeah, yeah. It's for use in like

11 a bakery where there's like a lot of flour in the air,

12 so the condenser coils won't get all clogged up with

13 flour.

14 MR. HON: It adds more pressure into your

15 coil and you reduce your heat transfer. It is like

16 what we're talking about in the HVAC business, where

17 they put additional filters, it requires stronger fans,

18 and sometimes it reduces your heat transfer.

19 MR. WEBER: It's just the same as your home

20 air filter.

21 MS. BARHYDT: But so to contrast it with

22 the issue in the HVAC discussion, the issue there is
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1 that the test procedure testifies static pressures, and

2 it's an issue of being able to actually achieve the

3 pressures in -- that are specified in the test

4 procedure, whereas here --

5 MR. HON: Right.

6 MS. BARHYDT: -- it does not.

7 MR. HON: It depends on which filters you put

8 on and how much it affects your energy consumption.

9 MR. RIVEST: It would still reduce the

10 measured energy.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Or increase, depending on --

12 MR. WEBER: Well, this is one of those

13 things -- it would increase it in the test procedure.

14 In the field, it would reduce it, because you wouldn't

15 have a clog condenser coil, so it's

16 MR. RIVEST: Right.

17 MR. WEBER: It would increase measure under

18 the test procedure, yes, because of the higher

19 pressure.

20 MR. RIVEST: So the way that was addressed in

21 commercial HVAC was to have a specified filter for the

22 test.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: But, again, that was just to be

2 able to achieve the --

3 MR. RIVEST: They have to have something.

4 MS. BARHYDT: -- pressure --

5 MR. RIVEST: Right, but this is the same

6 thing. By putting more filters, they will have more

7 pressure, more static, and that will --

8 MS. BARHYDT: But here, that's not an issue

9 for the test conditions.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's an issue with the result

11 of the test.

12 MS. BARHYDT: I understand that's an issue

13 with the result of the test, but that still seems to me

14 to be -- first of all, is it enough of a difference

15 that anyone's going to --

16 MR. WEBER: The baseline --

17 MS. BARHYDT: -- it's going to make a

18 difference in people's ratings?

19 MR. WEBER: The baseline is that the

20 condenser coil's usually open to the air.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

22 MR. WEBER: So this would make a significant
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1 difference.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it would make a

3 difference.

4 MR. WEBER: Yeah, sure.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So --

6 MR. WEBER: A measurement difference.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I'll think about it.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And I see there's less

9 than 2 percent in the marketplace, so it's not

10 something that's real common.

11 MR. HON: It's not common at all.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Security covers for a

13 refrigeration system --

14 MR. HON: I actually --

15 MS. BARHYDT: -- is that the same type of

16 issue?

17 MR. HON: This was discussed earlier, and

18 basically they said that some of the bracketing reduces

19 the airflow to the condenser.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a design issue.

21 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, that sounds like a

22 design issue.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not a -- okay.

2 MR. HON: I'm just telling you what I heard.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

4 MR. SHEBIK: Charlie, this is Ron.

5 MR. HON: Yes.

6 MR. SHEBIK: The way it's described to me is

7 either the security covers are wire mesh or perforated

8 metal, sometimes provided as part of a prison package

9 with security screws for correctional facilities to

10 prevent tampering.

11 MR. BALLO: Like a hail guard.

12 MR. SHEBIK: -- discharge return grille, I

13 guess, would be another additional means of blocking

14 airflow.

15 MS. BARHYDT: How much of an impact does this

16 actually have?

17 MR. RIVEST: Didn't say.

18 MR. SHEBIK: It's very -- well, it'd be very

19 -- I'm assuming it's very low. We're working now. We

20 did not make these cases, so I shouldn't be answering

21 that question, probably. I would assume it's very low

22 volume.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: It looks --

2 MR. SHEBIK: It's additional airflow.

3 MS. BARHYDT: It looks like, on the chart

4 that you all provided, it's less than one percent, so

5 it's very small. Okay. What about night curtains?

6 This is in the test procedure.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

8 MR. HON: There are also night curtains for

9 other products. There are plastic knight curtains in

10 glass units, which people will pull down to put another

11 additional barrier inside the unit to reduce the

12 consumption of power. They're very unusual, but they

13 do exist.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's purely a test

15 procedure, I think, in my opinion.

16 MR. WEBER: Yeah, I mean, the test procedure

17 --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hundred percent.

19 MR. WEBER: -- has night provisions. You

20 know, those are what they are.

21 MR. HON: Yeah, it says in the

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: If someone believes they're
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1 inadequate, then we need to deal with it through the

2 test procedure, not through this.

3 MR. HON: Okay.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Grille options?

6 MR. WEBER: I think this is the same as the

7 flour thing.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Same as the flour issue?

9 MR. WEBER: Uh-huh.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Anyone on the phone have

11 anything else to add?

12 MR. NESHAN: Is that end of the list?

13 MALE SPEAKER: No, I do not.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think so.

15 MS. BARHYDT: No, we're still going through

16 the list. I just meant on that particular item.

17 MR. WEBER: On the grilles.

18 MR. NESHAN: I can't see that.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Me neither.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Coated coils.

21 MR. RIVEST: Here we go again.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: We get it.
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1 MR. HON: There's two different things here

2 that need to be considered. Number one is that deli

3 cases traditionally have, as standard, a coated coil

4 because of the type of products they're usually using

5 on -- everything else would have a rare option of a

6 coated coal. It would not be the standard product.

7 But a deli case, service over counter,

8 they're -- most products in our end of the business is

9 sold with the coated coil as standard equipment. So we

10 just assume that's part of it. Other areas may have

11 some other approach.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

13 MR. NESHAN: When you say deli, that's really

14 general, because there are -- in a deli case, you have

15 open product. That's where that issue becomes --

16 MS. BARHYDT: The service over the counters?

17 MR. NESHAN: Even a -- I'm talking about the

18 service over the counters, because you have like --

19 MALE SPEAKER: Service over --

20 MR. NESHAN: Yeah. When you have a service

21 over counter deli cases, if you have like a prepared

22 salad, which have a lot of vinegar or other stuff, that
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1 is where you -- customers would require -- but in the

2 same deli, service over counter, it would have a lot of

3 packaged meat, like bologna, but still call it deli

4 case. Those do not need, because there's no open

5 package. Everything is -- so let's not say deli cases

6 as a standard what happens.

7 MS. BARHYDT: But so it sounded like Charlie

8 was saying that --

9 MR. HON: But I said in our market --

10 MR. NESHAN: In your market, yeah, yeah.

11 MR. HON: -- we coat them all --

12 MR. NESHAN: Right.

13 MR. HON: And that's why I was very specific

14 to say in our market, we coat them all, because we do

15 not get the product differentiation that you guys get.

16 MS. BARHYDT: And so for other people, is

17 that less standard to have the coils coated?

18 MR. NESHAN: Some of our customers require

19 that on all of their cases. Some customers care less.

20 There's no requirement.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Ron?

22 MR. SHEBIK: I would say the majority of our
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1 customers -- or, I'm sorry, the majority of our cases

2 that fall into that category are coated.

3 MS. BARHYDT: And what's the cost

4 differential?

5 MR. SHEBIK: Cost for the coating?

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. If somebody says "I

7 don't want a coated coil," do they get a big price

8 break?

9 MR. SHEBIK: You know, I can't answer --

10 MR. RIVEST: Probably was never stated that

11 way.

12 MR. SHEBIK: (Inaudible) coated coals.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Well, I worded it that way

14 because it sounds like the norm is more to have the

15 coating, so I was figuring that if the norm is to have

16 the coating, then somebody's more or less special

17 ordering to not have a coating.

18 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah.

19 MR. RIVEST: So the concern here is are there

20 products being sold that would have difficulty meeting

21 the standard because of this coating?

22 MR. HON: It's close.
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1 MR. RIVEST: But in the deli space, it's

2 already factored in. It would be in the other products

3 --

4 MR. HON: Well, there's a separate category

5 in the last regulatory actions for service over the

6 counter.

7 MR. RIVEST: Oh, okay.

8 MR. HON: It was so bad --

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it --

10 MR. HON: -- that they had --

11 MS. BARHYDT: -- changed the standard.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

13 MR. HON: -- we had to have Congress --

14 Congressional action to change the standard, because we

15 had, of t e 50 different cases we made, some of

16 which can be grouped together, 3 of them passed.

17 MR. RIVEST: So the conversation here is

18 about the other product classes and whether there

19 should be an exemption for coated coals?

20 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah, I don't think it's SOC. I

21 think it's other clients that we need to look at that

22 may have coated coals.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

2 MR. SHEBIK: For my company, it'd be very

3 few.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Is there an issue with -- I

5 mean, for other products where these are used, is there

6 an issue with them meeting the standard like there were

7 for the service over the counter?

8 MR. HON: Depends on the customer demand for

9 the coating. We have done -- in the last three years,

10 I remember going through three different exercises with

11 coatings. Two of them were no more than electrostatic

12 e- coat system, which is very thin and very minimal

13 effect on anything; very minimal cost, too. The other

14 one was a very heavy coating, and the efficiencies

15 dropped by 30 percent on the unit.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

17 MR. HON: But that's why the service over

18 counter has a heavy coat on it, and that's why the

19 numbers are so different. You've got about a --

20 MR. SHEBIK: Charlie?

21 MR. HON: Yes?

22 MR. SHEBIK: What about painted coals? Do
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1 you guys still do painted coals anywhere?

2 MR. HON: It's all e-coat.

3 MR. SHEBIK: I think I have like (inaudible)

4 or something like that.

5 MR. HON: Yeah, they're painted. That's a

6 standard.

7 MR. SHEBIK: I haven't seen that stuff in a

8 while. I'm not in that area anymore, but I know they

9 had kind of a heavy coat on at one time.

10 MR. HON: Those are the ones that are --

11 those are the exception to the rule. They're really --

12 we can cope with them. We've changed the coatings.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else on coated coils?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if we were to distinguish

15 between the thin coating and the real thick coating

16 that results in the 30 percent, how would you describe

17 the thick coating? Like is there a name for the type

18 it is?

19 MR. HON: It could be done in several

20 different ways. It could be a plastic coating or a

21 heavy acrylic- type paint. But normally, the thin

22 coatings are less than 2 to 3/10,000th of an inch thick
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1 --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

3 MR. HON: -- and anything else would be much

4 heavier than that, well in excess of a mil.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

6 MR. RIVEST: And --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's helpful.

8 MR. RIVEST: -- how do you measure -- or

9 what's the industry standard for what's being achieved

10 by these coatings?

11 MR. HON: It's all salt spray testing.

12 MR. RIVEST: Salt spray testing?

13 MR. HON: Corrosion.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So some type of corrosion15 resistant coating that's, you know --

16 MR. RIVEST: There's a test --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- around --

18 MR. RIVEST: There's a test procedure for --

19 MR. HON: Mil spec stuff.

20 MR. RIVEST: Okay.

21 MR. HON: Just like your outdoor furniture.

22 MR. RIVEST: So if we were to specify an
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1 exemption for coatings, there would have to be a

2 minimum requirement on achieving

3 MR. HON: That's something that you'd have to

4 get some numbers, because like NSS (ph) specifies that

5 a shelf in a food contact area have minimum 500-hour

6 salt spray tests so that rust is not formed in 500

7 hours of salt spray.

8 MR. RIVEST: Okay.

9 MR. HON: The outside cabinet, for UL, if

10 it's in an outdoor environment, has a minimum of --

11 it's either 500 or 1,000 hours of salt spray tests.

12 Standard military spec stuff. It's just saying, "Okay,

13 this will not rust or corrode and become obnoxious in a

14 certain range.

15 MR. RIVEST: And when you sell your product

16 as coated, is that spec part of your spec, that --

17 MR. HON: We just say coated, and if someone

18 asks, we'll tell them what it is.

19 MR. RIVEST: Okay.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we have -- it says,

21 "Exempt hybrid case where refrigeration heat removal

22 from the product is provided by secondary fluid through
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1 a direct expansion heat exchanger integrated with the

2 case," but I'm a little confused, because it starts out

3 with "exempt hybrid case."

4 MR. HON: Ron, do you know who's put that one

5 in?

6 MR. NESHAN: Probably the Phoenix (ph)

7 people.

8 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

9 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah, I'm trying to get ahold of

10 him to see if he's available to speak on those, but I

11 cannot do justice, but, I mean -- I don't want to screw

12 up -- I kind of understand what he explained, but I

13 don't want to mess it up, so -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.

14 MR. WEBER: One thing I do know is that AHRI

15 2010 and the other methods of tests don't account for

16 secondary coolant.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is that what they're talking

18 about?

19 MR. SHEBIK: That's what he -- he's looking

20 at like a secondary (inaudible) system.

21 MR. WEBER: Appears to be what he's talking

22 about.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: But there's no issue.

2 MR. NESHAN: But that's excluded anyway.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, there's no issue,

4 because it would --

5 MR. WEBER: That's what he appears to be

6 talking about, but

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not exempt, but --

8 exempt's not the right word, but it's not --

9 MR. WEBER: There is no test procedures.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's no test procedures.

11 MR. WEBER: And no applicable standard.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so that's not an issue.

13 MR. WEBER: Yeah.

14 MS. BARHYDT: So this is --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: At this time, at least.

16 MS. BARHYDT: -- a point where there's no

17 applicable standard?

18 MR. SHEBIK: Oh, okay, so the simple answer

19 here is that it is currently exempt. It's not covered,

20 I guess, is a better way of saying it.

21 MR. NESHAN: If you read through the minutes

22 of the meetings we've had in the past, there is some
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1 places referred to as the qualities are so

2 insignificant that it's not included in this -- just --

3 if you look at it, you will find such a thing.

4 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

5 MR. HON: Well, you've got to be careful,

6 though, Ron, because the ASHRAE test allows for liquid

7 to gas and liquid-liquid heat transfer. So if this is

8 a glycol looping used as an energy one, it can be

9 measured and tested.

10 MR. NESHAN: There is test procedure.

11 Actually, Standard 72 has a -- there is a test

12 procedure for glycol, but DOE decided not to include --

13 I'm sorry, secondary, not necessarily glycol -- liquid,

14 single-phase fluid.

15 MR. HON: Okay.

16 MR. WEBER: And AHRI also chose not to

17 include it in 1200.

18 MR. NESHAN: Well, I think, I mean, if you go

19 back, you -- I remember a discussion that they decided

20 not to include secondary because there was a lot --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, there was pretty

22 extensive discussion on the test procedure; I heard
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1 about it.

2 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah, I could read his comment

3 on this if you guys want to --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can just point him to it

5 because it's not going to

6 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Very quickly, it says,

7 "We called it the semi-self-contained case. The case

8 itself circulates glycol through pans and a gravity

9 coil using a pump with an electric motor, but has no

10 fan motors to remove the air. Cooling is by conduction

11 through the pan and convection only by air falling from

12 the gravity coil.

13 For stores that do not want a centralized

14 glycol secondary coolant source, a small white plate

15 heat exchanger is installed under the case to show the

16 glycol from the store HFC refrigerant rack. Hence, HFC

17 liquid and suction lines are connected from a remote

18 direct expansion system to the case via the heat

19 exchanger, but the case functions internally, using a

20 secondary coolant fluid.

21 MR. WEBER: Oh.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not --
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1 MR. SHEBIK: If the secondary fluid lines

2 weren't connected directly to the case, the product

3 would clearly be exempt for now.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not exempt. That is

5 not exempt. That's not secondary coolant.

6 MR. WEBER: Yeah, that's very different.

7 That's a normal DX case in the eyes of the test

8 procedure.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. That's subject to the

10 existing test procedure, existing standards.

11 MR. WEBER: Yeah, I mean, he's doing what he

12 wants inside the box, but that's a normal case.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. If he doesn't

14 believe the test procedure is representative, he can

15 come get a waiver.

16 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. All right. Thank you.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Units requiring wedge to

18 operate.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is that the corner part, what

20 you mean by the wedge?

21 MR. NESHAN: That's usually -- the wedge is

22 referred to as when you have a -- like sometimes, you
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1 know, you turn the --

2 MS. BARHYDT: The pie-shaped --

3 MR. NESHAN: -- you have to have the pie

4 shape, you know, different sizes that is a wedge

5 between two standard cases. I mean, a lot of times,

6 those could be kind of assembled partially, and the

7 factory didn't reassemble it in the job site, or

8 sometimes it's a complete unit.

9 Those normally, as a standalone, do not work.

10 As standalone, they will not perform, whether it DOE

11 number or the NSF, even, you know, the product

12 temperature requirements that we have to comply with.

13 But when it's a wedge in between display cases, it

14 works, magically; okay? But as a standalone, they did

15 not.

16 MR. HON: They actually pull a lot of the

17 cold air from units beside them. They're not -- they

18 don't have enough power themselves.

19 MR. SHEBIK: Right, it depends on the parent

20 case for coolant or for refrigeration.

21 MR. HON: It's like cold air flows from one

22 into the other.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I don't have an answer

2 for that one.

3 MS. BARHYDT: So you sell sort of a left side

4 and right side and a wedge in the middle?

5 MR. NESHAN: Correct.

6 MS. BARHYDT: But the left, right, and middle

7 are not a single case; they're three cases?

8 MR. NESHAN: Well, yeah, in this -- yeah,

9 left --

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

11 MR. NESHAN: Left and right are separate

12 cases. And sometimes even part's kind of fabricated,

13 because it's not exactly 45 degree, you know. The

14 drawing shows 45, but when you go there, it says it's

15 only 40 degrees, so you have to modify the parts you

16 have brought into the job site, try to fit that in

17 there.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Wedge it in.

19 MR. NESHAN: Wedge it in, basically, yeah.

20 And it's a very almost -- I don't want to say 100

21 percent, but 99.99 percent impossible to put it in the

22 lab and run that wedge by itself. Again, if you --
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1 again, if the wedge, what we're calling the outside

2 wedge, where the front is wider than the back, try to

3 put the coil in the back of that case. There is maybe

4 four inches of space. So how do you run it in the lab -

5 - you know, how do you test it in the -- just not

6 practical.

7 MS. BARHYDT: So is the question about

8 whether the wedge is regulated, or is it a question of

9 whether the left and the right are regulated?

10 MR. NESHAN: No, the left and right --

11 MS. BARHYDT: It's the wedge?

12 MR. NESHAN: -- have to be regulated, now.

13 FEMALE SPEAKER: It's the wedge.

14 MR. NESHAN: That's a standard case.

15 MS. BARHYDT: So the question's the wedge?

16 MR. NESHAN: The wedge, yes.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Right. But the way you

18 worded it was that it sounded like the left wouldn't

19 work all by itself and the right wouldn't work by

20 itself.

21 MR. NESHAN: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

22 Those are the standard --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: But so the left and the right

2 do. It's really just about the wedge.

3 MR. NESHAN: Yeah. If the left and right

4 doesn't work, the middle doesn't work, nothing's

5 working then.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

7 MR. NESHAN: No, no.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I've got you.

9 MR. SHEBIK: Laura, (inaudible) had to meet

10 the requirements, perhaps the easy way to deal with

11 this would be just not even require the wedge. Wedges

12 are very low volume.

13 MR. WEBER: So I don't have it off the top of

14 my head, but I believe there is some language in 431-66

15 about wedge cases from the 09 rule. I'm trying to pull

16 it up here.

17 MR. BALLO: I remember there was a volume

18 calculation; was it?

19 MR. WEBER: There were some things from wedge

20 cases. And everyone's right. That's not a very common

21 thing, but

22 MR. HON: It's TDA.
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1 MR. WEBER: I mean, they're non-common,

2 you're -- you know, you have to continuously, you know,

3 redesign your wedges to meet the customer's evocation

4 when you do build a wedge.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. I think we're

6 good. I mean, we get the wedge here, it's just a matter

7 of how do we deal with it.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Misting systems.

9 MR. WEBER: Yeah, it's in there.

10 MR. SHEBIK: Can we back up to the wedge this

11 one more --

12 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, yeah.

13 MR. SHEBIK: -- for one second?

14 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead.

15 MR. SHEBIK: One more question on that, and

16 it seemed like years ago we had this discussion, but

17 similar to the scenario of this wedge, we also have a

18 case that's designed to go to the -- that works in

19 conjunction with a walk-in cooler/freezer, where the

20 case itself began. It's got an open back. It does not

21 have the capacity to actually pull down case's

22 temperature. It gets 50 percent of his refrigeration
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1 from the walk-in cooler/freezer. That would be another

2 similar scenario to where that case itself, tested on

3 its own without the walk-in cooler/freezer, you really

4 can't do, because you can't get -- you can't pull down

5 properly. So, again, it requires the boost from that

6 walk-in cooler/freezer in order to get the

7 temperatures. I'll just add that. Thank you.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Misting systems.

9 MR. NESHAN: Yes.

10 MR. SHEBIK: I can start. We can get -- we

11 have some customers that request the misting system be

12 added OEM (ph). They want the system on very, very low

13 volume. And, again, a misting system is something that

14 you would see on a produce case. You see it all the

15 time in the produce section of the stores.

16 It's a low-volume item. For us it's

17 customer- driven. It's not something that we would

18 normally option -- or offer the kit for our cases.

19 MR. NESHAN: That's true. I mean, usually

20 you see the produce department, when you go, you'll see

21 something, there's the noise, you know, and the

22 lightning and thunder noise, and then the spray comes
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1 on, and it sprays under a shelf, and that's how -- the

2 customers do that in the store, but, again, to cut

3 costs, they ask manufacturers to supply that. There's

4 usually plastic tubing. There's some plastic nozzle

5 heads to incorporate it.

6 Now, we disclaim a lot of stuff, because we,

7 for example, if there's a lighted shelf, we do not

8 offer that, because, you know, if you have an

9 electrical wire, you don't want to spray, so we

10 disclaim a lot of things from safety point of view.

11 But they keep on insisting on providing these misting

12 systems in these produce cases. Okay?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are they integrated from the

14 point of manufacture, or they just add it on?

15 MR. NESHAN: No, they come to us. We install

16 it, or they can do it in the field, too. I mean, it's

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Either one?

18 MR. NESHAN: Either/or. But it's easier in

19 the -- you'll be done in the factory -- if you have to

20 drill a hole to run a tube through the end panel or

21 from underneath the cases, whole lot easier than trying

22 to do it in the field, you know? It's a -- again,
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1 comes back to the customers' convenience, you know, to

2 do this in our factory rather than their facility.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So I understand when

4 it's spraying mist, that has an impact on their

5 refrigeration, but is there any power consumption from

6 this misting system itself?

7 MR. NESHAN: Some of them do have an air

8 pump. Okay? It's not just water, because it's a mist -

9 - there's air pressure where the water's mixed, and

10 that pump has to go underneath the case, but the case

11 is supplied with the pump. You see what -- air pump?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

13 MR. NESHAN: And then it could be we are

14 supposed to test the case as it enters the commerce,

15 you know, so here it is. A pump is added, air pump.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Air purifier systems.

18 MR. NESHAN: I don't have any comment on that

19 --

20 MR. HON: It's the same as other filtration.

21 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah, for air purifiers, I mean,

22 where I'm somewhat familiar with it, it comes in our
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1 open food cases, different types of air-purifying

2 systems that are available. Again, a lot of this stuff

3 is after- market or third-party options, but, again,

4 for the ease of wiring a case, if you want to tie into

5 the same system, and just the fact that it gets

6 actually attached and built into the case is a lot

7 easier to do it on the OEM side than it would be to

8 have a third party come in and start to chop up the

9 case and installing a piece of equipment.

10 MS. BARHYDT: And you're not talking just

11 about filters?

12 MR. SHEBIK: No, I'm talking about, actually,

13 different types of products that actually -- that

14 purify the air.

15 MR. WEBER: Like ionizers?

16 MR. SHEBIK: Ionizers, stuff like that.

17 MR. BALLO: I guess at this point, it's a

18 combination product more than just CRE, so

19 MR. SHEBIK: But there's a possibility -- I

20 mean, I'd say a very real possibility that it could

21 actually be attached -- it could be installed OEM on

22 the case and built into the case for the ease of a
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1 customer or the end user as opposed to having to get

2 somebody out there at a third party and do an after3 market.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Okay. I mean, got

5 it.

6 MS. BARHYDT: General purpose outlets. These

7 came up earlier.

8 MR. RIVEST: We had it.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Anything else to add

10 about general purpose outlets? I mean, we certainly

11 understand what it is that you all are talking about.

12 MR. NESHAN: If I -- I have a question.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Yeah.

14 MR. NESHAN: In the list, I cannot see the

15 list, so is there anything in there for humidification

16 system and flushing or not? If not, I would like where

17 there's a -- that misting, I want to go to that

18 subject. Is there a

19 MS. BARHYDT: Is there anything else? No.

20 MR. NESHAN: Okay. Then let's go back to

21 misting, because there are a couple other things.

22 There are some other customers -- if you've gone to
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1 some supermarkets, you see that there's like -- looks

2 like steam in there or a fog over a seafood display

3 case.

4 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

5 MR. NESHAN: Yes, yes, yes.

6 MR. RIVEST: Yes.

7 MR. NESHAN: That's an accessory that some

8 customers require. That also has a pump, you know.

9 It's just not -- misting's also a humidification

10 system. That's one.

11 MR. RIVEST: Is that marketing? What is

12 that?

13 MR. NESHAN: Marketing -- they won't actually

14 extend the shelf life. They want to leave the meat and

15 the seafood in the case for three, four days. I don't

16 know who will buy --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Don't shop at those stores.

18 MR. NESHAN: Oh, yeah.

19 MR. WEBER: If you leave it open, it'll dry

20 it out.

21 MR. NESHAN: Yeah, it will dry out.

22 MR. WEBER: Yeah.
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1 MR. NESHAN: There's that point that also --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go to new stores.

3 MR. NESHAN: Some people ask for flushing

4 system, flushing system in a seafood or a meat case.

5 Okay?

6 MS. BARHYDT: Which is?

7 MR. WEBER: Is that --

8 MR. NESHAN: Which is -- what is it,

9 basically -- again, they don't want to clean the case

10 themselves, so we pipe the case to -- there's piping in

11 there, and then every six hours, the water -- you won't

12 -- customers do not see this; all underneath. Water

13 comes and washes the bottom of the case.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that's not going to

15 happen during the test procedures.

16 MR. NESHAN: Well, I know, but the case goes

17 with those accessories, you see?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's okay.

19 MR. NESHAN: Okay. I mean --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: But you're not going to

21 change the values of consumption at that test

22 procedure.
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1 MR. NESHAN: No, we will not, but I do not

2 want someone on the field saying, "Hey, this case you

3 have supplied, this comes with these accessories. It

4 needs to be tested with these accessories."

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, if a DOE test procedure

6 doesn't require that, then it's very clear.

7 MR. NESHAN: Okay. If you say it doesn't

8 require, that would be fine. I mean --

9 MS. BARHYDT: So let me ask you this. If

10 we've bought one of these and it had all the piping in

11 it --

12 MR. NESHAN: Right.

13 MS. BARHYDT: And we tested it --

14 MR. NESHAN: Right.

15 MS. BARHYDT: -- would it have any impact?

16 MR. NESHAN: It could have impact, yes.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we make it flush during

18 the test procedure.

19 MS. BARHYDT: No, like --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

21 MS. BARHYDT: No, no, I mean like just if the

22 pipes are there and we're not running the flushing
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1 system --

2 MR. NESHAN: No, if you're not running the

3 flushing system --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

5 MR. NESHAN: -- it would not have an impact.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

7 MR. NESHAN: But the humidification system,

8 you know -- again, if you don't run it, but when we

9 supply the case, we have to incorporate the amp

10 requirement of that to the name plate so the electrical

11 requirement shows a higher number.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

13 MR. NESHAN: Okay? And if you opt to use it,

14 then, or test it, because the nameplate --

15 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

16 MR. NESHAN: -- shows so many amperage, then

17 you would not qualify, because those air compressor

18 pumps use a lot of energy.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I understand.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're looking at the

22 certified rating under the test procedure conditions.
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1 MR. NESHAN: Okay. Okay.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. The other issues --

3 there was the note about can we remove everything after

4 this? Was there a desire to discuss those issues, or

5 were

6 MR. SHEBIK: I think outside of the crank

7 case heater, I can't -- I don't -- I'm not someone

8 who's going to discuss that, because it's not really

9 something I deal with or -- but I think most of these

10 items are items that don't really affect the energy

11 consumption, but I think as Jeff pointed out earlier,

12 it may have an impact on what we -- or at least what we

13 felt going into this was the basic model definition.

14 So that may be why some of these were put on there.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Well, then, let's take a

16 short break, and then we'll run through it, just to

17 make sure everybody's clear on all of them.

18 MR. NESHAN: If we come up with some other

19 stuff, yeah.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So we'll take a ten-minute

21 break, and then we'll resume.

22 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.)
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So is everybody online

2 still? Okay. Crank case heaters.

3 MR. HON: This is a specialty category of

4 self- contained cases, but would never show up as any

5 test result other than a little bit of airflow

6 restriction inside the case because they would never

7 turn on during normal conditions in an ASHRAE test. So

8 the power differences would only be a little bit of

9 airflow inside the case, getting cooling to the

10 condenser coil. And we're talking that less than one

11 percent is really less than one percent.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Does anyone else have

13 anything else to add about crank case heaters? Okay.

14 Product supports, shelving, pan slides, racks. Again,

15 this is not -- at least my understanding is that it's

16 not something that is a characteristic that is going to

17 impact energy consumption, and so it's --

18 MR. HON: Unless they would be silly enough

19 to put something in front of their airflow.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead, Ron.

21 MR. SHEBIK: I think the reason they're on

22 there is because they may -- again, it's my guess --
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1 they may change the model nomenclature, so therefore I

2 guess it's a concern it may -- at one time it was a

3 concern it may cause it to fall under a different base

4 model group or basic model definition?

5 MS. BARHYDT: No, so the model -- basic model

6 definition is based entirely on energy, not based on

7 marketing.

8 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I think it's better

9 understood now, so

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Is the same for dry

11 goods shelving?

12 MALE SPEAKER: Yes.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

14 Door hinging; this one is kind of funny to me

15 because this is actually the one that we actually use

16 most often when we're trying to explain to people what

17 a basic model is and that it absolutely does not

18 matter, and this is the perfect example of the simplest

19 case of you can definitely include left-handed and

20 right-handed doors in the same basic model. This is

21 the one that we use when we're talking to importers who

22 know nothing about manufacturing or anything about the
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1 products because it's the easiest for novices to

2 visualize.

3 Cabinet supports, legs versus casters, same

4 sort of thing. I wouldn't think that that would have

5 any impact. Interior and exterior liner material, no

6 impact?

7 MR. HON: I don't know why they would put

8 that on there, because are you adding another layer of

9 insulation? If you put something on the inside of the

10 cooler or the outside of the cooler that is substantive

11 in its nature, you're going to make it more efficient,

12 unless you block off airflow.

13 MR. NESHAN: Yeah, what -- I think what --

14 assuming that when you add it, if they call it a

15 different model and basically forego any efficiency

16 they might -- any efficiency gain they might have from

17 having it more insulated.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Right, right.

19 MR. NESHAN: That's my assumption. I --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, so if it impacted the

21 energy consumption and it was a different model number

22 for marketing purposes, if they wanted to claim the
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1 energy improvements, that would be a different basic

2 model. If they don't want to claim the energy

3 improvements, then they can group it altogether into

4 one basic model.

5 MR. NESHAN: We were talking about the crank

6 case heaters. Can we also over -- or not include or

7 exempt crank case pressure regulators? And let me tell

8 you what that is. Some customers ask us to add -- "We

9 have an additional item we have to put in our self10 contained cases because local utilities cannot

11 guarantee their voltage will not drop below 100, for

12 example, you know. And low voltage, they need these

13 devices so low voltage, they can start. It's a poor

14 power quality.

15 Okay. So they ask us to supply. And

16 normally, they don't -- the case would not require such

17 a thing. Again, we are being penalized because local

18 power company can't do what you're supposed to be

19 doing. I mean, that, I think, should be exempt.

20 MR. BALLO: Do they take any power? I mean,

21 do they use power if you're getting --

22 MR. NESHAN: No, there's an extra pressure in
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1 the system, you know, because it's a device, it's a

2 mechanical device that's -- to regulate the pressure,

3 but every time you put -- you add a device, mechanical

4 device, you have a pressure drop, you know, impacts the

5 performance.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Does it also impact the energy

7 consumption because in regulating the power source, it

8 actually is consuming energy?

9 MR. NESHAN: It's not, but that compressor

10 has to work a little bit harder.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

12 MR. NESHAN: Therefore, it was going to use

13 more energy, you know.

14 MR. HON: There are two different devices

15 that can be bought. One is a coil which goes on to the

16 compressor, and it kicks up the voltages slightly, and

17 the compressor works harder because of it. The other

18 was a voltage -- basically a buck-and-boost

19 transformer. We sell those on occasion after market

20 because of disasters in Mexico, but it's not a domestic

21 product, which basically takes it 105 volts and makes

22 it 115. And those always consume more power because
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1 they're inefficient. But that's not a standard product

2 in the United States, and usually it's an after-market

3 add-on, would not be sold with the unit.

4 MR. WEBER: Is this something that's bundled

5 with this -- like it only goes like when the start

6 passer fires, or is this what it's always flown

7 through?

8 MR. NESHAN: No, no. The one I'm talking

9 about is put in the -- where the refrigerant is.

10 MR. WEBER: Oh, so you're talking about a

11 mechanical device?

12 MR. NESHAN: It's a mechanical device. It's

13 a mechanical device. It's always there.

14 MR. HON: Puts back pressure on the

15 compressor.

16 MR. NESHAN: Yeah.

17 MR. SAUNDERS: This is Joe Saunders from

18 Traulsen. I can describe that valve (inaudible)

19 understand. It's a valve sold by Spolen (ph) or by

20 Emerson. It goes in the suction line just before the

21 compressor, and what happens is, is when the

22 compressors try to run, they draw -- just like having -
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1 - in a poor power situation, that current drop can go

2 up. What the crank case pressure regulator does is it

3 reduces the suction pressure to the compressor. The

4 compressor amperage required to run goes down, but the

5 efficiency of the system also goes down.

6 If you look at the operating characteristics

7 that Emerson publishes, when you drop the suction

8 pressure, the BTUs that that compressor's able to move

9 through the system also decreases, so the efficiency of

10 the system drops with the use of a crank case pressure

11 regulator.

12 So the question is someone asked does the

13 valve use more energy? The valve itself doesn't use

14 any energy. It regulates the suction pressure. The

15 compressor will in turn, though, use more energy in

16 order -- because the run times will be longer, meaning

17 you might go from a run time of 40 percent up to a run

18 time of 50 percent in order to reduce the amperage to

19 the compressor in order for it to run on a reduced

20 voltage circuit.

21 And I hope that that was understood. Thank

22 you.
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1 MR. HON: Yeah, thank you.

2 MR. WEBER: Now, in the absence of poor line

3 voltage, is it still impeding flow, or is it just

4 focusing as a straight pipe, like an open butterfly

5 valve or something?

6 MR. SAUNDERS: It impedes flow. Those valves

7 are preset, and they may be preset at, say, 30 psi,

8 where if they had the proper voltage, they would run at

9 the -- the compressor would want to run at 40 psi. How

10 does that work is when you are under a situation where

11 you have poor voltage, you set the valve at a lower

12 pressure, and they're always in the circuit and always

13 at that lower pressure.

14 MR. WEBER: I mean, so this is really a

15 worst- case thing. There's no functional or

16 utilitarian reason why someone would want one if they

17 didn't need it?

18 MR. NESHAN: No.

19 MR. WEBER: Okay.

20 MR. SAUNDERS: No, meaning your -- the valve

21 cost more, and you would never pick it on purpose.

22 MR. WEBER: Okay.
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1 MR. NESHAN: And we do not have a different

2 model number for the one that has or does not have, you

3 know, so you happen to have -- pick that one for

4 testing, it might end up not -- it's going to end up

5 using more energy prior than what we have claimed,

6 maybe more than 5 percent higher than what we have

7 claimed, and all of a sudden, we are being, you know,

8 pegged as oops, we were caught. I mean, I don't want

9 to know, because that is not a normal operating

10 conditions and -- but, again, we have to do this for

11 the areas that power quality is not good.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

13 MR. RIVEST: And that's a significant -- what

14 portion of sales?

15 MR. NESHAN: It's not very high. It's very -

16 - certain part of the country has these power issues.

17 MR. RIVEST: Second part?

18 MR. NESHAN: Certain.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Certain.

20 MR. NESHAN: Certain.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Which parts of the country?

22 MR. NESHAN: We've seen that a lot in
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1 Florida, for example.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

3 MR. RIVEST: No voltage drops.

4 MR. NESHAN: Yes.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Any other issues? We went

6 through the spreadsheet, but certainly if there are

7 other CRE issues

8 MS. DANE: This is Mary at Traulsen. I just

9 want to go back to the -- one of the questions we were

10 talking about, the general purpose outlet.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

12 MS. DANE: And I know we were discussing that

13 there's -- that you can't control what gets plugged in

14 and stuff, but could we get some kind of an answer on

15 whether or not, if we have different entities that make

16 different things that might be, say, shipped with it,

17 we want to make sure that, in whatever definition is

18 used, that that wouldn't be affected?

19 MS. BARHYDT: So you --

20 MS. DANE: In other words --

21 MS. BARHYDT: You shipped the case with the

22 scale that plugs in?
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1 MS. DANE: Right. If that comes from another

2 entity or is sold together --

3 MR. SAUNDERS: Any ITW (ph) make -- this is

4 Joe Sanders -- I mean, ITW makes more the refrigerators

5 that gets sold to -- for a food service establishment,

6 for instance, meaning we may sell a refrigerator, and

7 that refrigerator has provision for a scale that's also

8 sold by ITW, going out on the same sales order.

9 MS. BARHYDT: But it's not actually wired in.

10 It's -- what I --

11 MR. SAUNDERS: The general purpose

12 receptacle.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

14 MR. SAUNDERS: Sorry?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I just wanted to make

16 sure we were still talking about the --

17 MR. SAUNDERS: General purpose receptacles,

18 meaning they would be wired into the cabinet.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Right, but the --

20 MR. SAUNDERS: It would be a part of the

21 appliance --

22 MS. BARHYDT: Sorry, go ahead.
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1 MR. SAUNDERS: I was going to say the

2 receptacle would be part of the appliance, and then the

3 scale or meat slicer, whatever, would be plugged in to

4 that receptacle as part of the appliance provided by

5 the same manufacturing entity.

6 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, that's the kind of

7 thing we can just issue guidance on that -- you don't

8 plug anything in when you -- into the receptacle when

9 you test the appliance.

10 MR. HON: It's not critical to the

11 refrigeration system.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

13 MS. DANE: I know we've spent a lot of time

14 discussing how people try to get around testing. We

15 just wanted to make sure that we, you know, had it

16 understood that that's not -- that we necessarily are

17 not talking about going around the system. We just

18 have the same entities that sell different things that

19 plug in together.

20 MR. SHEBIK: Meaning if someone were to

21 measure the current draw to the cabinet and there was a

22 scale also plugged in to the cabinet, they're not going
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1 to get the same results as if there were no scale

2 plugged -- cabinet.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Right. No, we understand that.

4 MS. DANE: So thank you.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Any other issues? Okay. Well,

6 thank you all again for accommodating this meeting on

7 such short notice, and we'll look forward to figuring

8 out all the details at the July 1-2 meeting.

9 MR. SHEBIK: Laura, this is Ron --

10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

11 MR. SHEBIK: -- with Hussmann.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

13 MR. SHEBIK: So what is -- so I guess what's

14 our plan of attack on this? I mean, today's meeting

15 was for informational purposes so that you guys have a

16 better understanding what our concerns are --

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, so now we --

18 MR. SHEBIK: -- going into July?

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. We need to go back, and

20 we need to look at all the different issues you've

21 raised and, you know, sit down, look at the analyses

22 that went into the standards setting, look at the test
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1 procedures, and see kind of where we stand on all the

2 different issues.

3 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Are you going to send out

4 an email on some of the items that you're looking for

5 more information from us? Like, for example, you

6 wanted some more information on lighting options that

7 we feel should not be included in testing?

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, if anyone has any

9 pictures or something like that, that would be really

10 helpful, just to give us a more concrete idea of the

11 different options that are already on the market. But

12 I think other than that, if we have any specific

13 questions, we can send out a blast, but I think we're

14 probably pretty well set.

15 MR. NESHAN: I want to ask a --

16 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. All right. Thank you.

17 MR. NESHAN: -- question.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

19 MR. NESHAN: This might be the first time I'm

20 bringing this up. The ASHRAE standard, you know, for

21 testing purposes, you know, is very -- we are familiar,

22 at least those who deal with it.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

2 MR. NESHAN: And we all have testing

3 facilities in different locations, a different part of

4 the country. However, depending on what elevation you

5 test these cases, you're going to end up with different

6 results. Okay?

7 MS. BARHYDT: So the effective barometric

8 pressure?

9 MR. NESHAN: Especially in the self-contained

10 cases, you know, there's more apparent --

11 MS. BARHYDT: Well, it's not --

12 MR. NESHAN: You already have it in there?

13 MS. BARHYDT: No, I was saying just

14 MR. NESHAN: Now, if he tests our cases in,

15 for example, where we are, and then also he also

16 tests in test facilities in Aspen, Colorado, they're

17 going to get different results, you know.

18 MS. BARHYDT: How much is the impact of

19 barometric pressure?

20 MR. HON: It is purely molecular in its

21 level. If you run more molecules across the foil --

22 MR. NESHAN: Yes.
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1 MR. HON: -- you're going to have more heat

2 transfer across, and the higher the elevation, the

3 lower the amount of air that is actually there. It's

4 directly proportional to altitude.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

6 MR. HON: But if you like the test

7 facilities, they're probably not --

8 MR. NESHAN: Too many out there.

9 MR. HON: Well, there's a couple -- you know,

10 Denver has a couple manufacturers, but the rest of the

11 facilities that I'm aware of would be below 2,000 feet.

12 MR. NESHAN: But, then again, down the road,

13 ten years from us, somebody could have a test facility

14 there, and they start testing, and then all of a

15 sudden, the results are -- so if there's some --

16 MS. BARHYDT: Sounds like that would be

17 conservative, though.

18 MR. NESHAN: Well, you need more air, then.

19 MR. HON: The lower the altitude, the more

20 efficient you are, because there's more --

21 MS. BARHYDT: Right, so if somebody put one

22 up high, they'd be getting really bad --
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1 MR. NESHAN: That's correct, bad efficiency.

2 MR. HON: Right. What happens if you build a

3 test lab -- that UL puts a test lab in Denver, and you

4 test --

5 MR. RIVEST: They won't get very many

6 clients.

7 MR. BALLO: It seems like if you could

8 correct the number for the --

9 MR. HON: You can get altitude correction

10 numbers to build in. No one, I don't think, has ever

11 done it, but I think ASHRAE has some standards for air

12 conditioning corrections.

13 MR. NESHAN: See, on the self-contained

14 cases, we -- the only test there is, you plug it in,

15 you measure the power in 24 hours, you know. There's

16 no calculation, no corrections, nothing, you know.

17 Whatever the meter says, that's what it says. Now, if

18 you take that one, obviously you have to maintain

19 certain product temperature. If you move it up to

20 higher elevation and plug it in, trying to maintain

21 that temperature, you might have to work it a tad

22 harder.
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1 MR. HON: But that's the same with air

2 conditioning --

3 MR. NESHAN: Yes.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

5 MR. HON: -- and any other coil-type device?

6 MR. NESHAN: Right.

7 MR. RIVEST: The human body too, I think,

8 right?

9 MR. HON: Yes, exactly, but for two reasons

10 there.

11 MR. HIERLMEIER: This is Bruce with Zero

12 Zone. I had a general question. We're trying to

13 understand, you know, the terms basic model, model

14 group. In one of the slides, a new term came in,

15 validation class. And as we start trying to decide

16 what are we going to want to use, basic models, or how

17 many you want to have, and, you know, do you want

18 10,000 of them, you know, how does that impact our

19 cost, you know, for validation tests? And if you say

20 you're going to want to validate tests one percent of

21 our basic models and we have 10,000 basic models,

22 starts adding -- you know, and if there's costs related
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1 to our company, those decisions might make us decide to

2 not have as many basic models, and I guess we have

3 bigger model groups or something.

4 Will the DOE have another webinar that just

5 goes through those definitions, how they apply, you

6 know, sort of some -- and stimulate some different

7 scenarios for companies; if you had 20,000 basic

8 models, this is the number of tests you're going to

9 have, or your future cost as a company may include

10 this, just to get a better understanding of how these

11 pieces and terms interact with each other?

12 MS. BARHYDT: Right, so at this point, we --

13 this working group has worked out a proposal for AEDMs,

14 and that's where the validation class terminology came

15 from, and so that will be going out in a proposed rule,

16 presumably the -- ASRAC did the standing advisory

17 committee -- is going to have to vote on that, and I

18 think that actually happens in a week or two. And then

19 after that, DOE would issue a proposal, so once we have

20 a final rule on that issue, and then this working group

21 is going to be working on basic model, similar, in a

22 couple of weeks. And so eventually, hopefully this
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1 working group will come out with a proposal, and it

2 will get sent up to the department. The department

3 would do a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. We'd go

4 through the whole rulemaking process.

5 So in answer to your question, ultimately,

6 once we have final definitions and final rules, yes,

7 the department will do webinars to explain all the

8 implications of whatever those final regulations are

9 and to answer any questions. We did that after the

10 first certification rule, and I would expect that we

11 will offer that again after whatever final rules come

12 out of this process.

13 MR. HIERLMEIER: Thank you.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Any other questions?

15 MR. LEMMOND: Is there a possibility that the

16 results of the ASRAC committee and the decisions made

17 could affect these definitions or how these units are

18 enforced?

19 MS. BARHYDT: I don't understand the

20 question.

21 MR. LEMMOND: If the ASRAC committee is

22 discussing the basic model versus -- the AHRI basic
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1 model group and rules --

2 MS. BARHYDT: So that's this working -- this

3 working group is going to come up with a proposal that

4 will go to the ASRAC. The ASRAC can -- I think the way

5 ASRAC structured it, they said that they were going to

6 do a thumbs-up, thumbs-down. I think they

7 MR. RIVEST: So there are two members of

8 ASRAC on this committee?

9 MS. BARHYDT: There are two members of ASRAC

10 on this working group.

11 MR. FREEMAN: And so if they don't -- if they

12 -- if ASRAC reviews and they don't like what it is,

13 what they'll do is they'll tell DOE --

14 MS. BARHYDT: Send it back.

15 MR. FREEMAN: -- push back -- send it back to

16 the group and say, "This is what we've come up with.

17 These are the -- this is the direction we suggest that

18 you go, and then you guys revise." But the point of

19 having the two members on the group --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Was hopefully to prevent that.

21 MR. FREEMAN: -- is to keep -- to prevent

22 that and keep the whole --
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1 MALE SPEAKER: Who aren't here; right?

2 MR. FREEMAN: They aren't here today, no.

3 But that's the point of them on the group is so that

4 they keep the major group in the loop, and then that

5 way, it's basically a thumbs-up, thumbs-down.

6 MR. LEMMOND: Thank you. That addresses my

7 question.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Any other questions? Anyone on

9 the phone? Okay. Well, thanks again, and we'll see

10 you all in a couple weeks.

11 (Whereupon, at 12:19 p.m., the Appliance

12 Standards and Rulemaking Meeting was

13 concluded.)

14

15

16

17

18

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20

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22
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1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

2 I, NATASHA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 

3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 

4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 

5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 

6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 

7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 

8 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 

9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 

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I I ~~~ NATASHA THOMAS 

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2 I, MARY YOUNG, hereby certify that I am not 

3 the Court Reporter who reported the following 

4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 

5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 

8 proceeding. 

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$

$10,000 68:16

$100 97:4

102:11,18

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54:16 92:17,18

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167:6

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148:1

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113:2,17,18,22

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basements 70:10

basic 2:11,13 5:14

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115:1,21

116:1,5,8,14,20

118:1 154:13

156:4,5,17,20

158:1,4

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173:2,7,21

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110:21 123:18

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110:2,7,11,13

111:19 112:3

beast 103:21

become 18:14,15

19:16 134:13

becomes 44:14

85:10 105:1,8

127:15

behalf 2:4

believe 55:21 60:3

100:21 110:6

139:14 143:14

believes 125:22

benefit 103:6

beside 140:17

best 105:2

better 2:13 3:12

136:20 156:8

167:16 173:10

beverage 30:13

31:12,13 32:10

bigger 50:4 173:3

biggest 11:11

75:18

big-time 49:15

bit 3:12 17:19 45:7

59:18 62:20 96:2

104:11 115:10

155:5,8 159:10

bitty 45:16

black 117:5

blast 80:17 168:13

block 157:12

blocking 124:13

blow 96:9,13

blowing 96:9

board 72:9,11,20

73:12 75:8

body 172:7

bologna 128:3

bolted 36:2

books 118:12

120:3

boost 145:5

border 65:1

bordering

64:17,19 65:2
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bottom 118:6

151:13

bought 88:21

152:10 159:15

box 21:22 38:9

139:12

boxes 38:11

bracket 35:21

bracketing 123:18

brand 30:19 32:10

bread 14:13 17:12

23:11,12,15 26:2

break 129:8

154:16,21

break-in 83:13

Brian 5:6

brief 154:22

bring 13:14 33:10

81:5 110:19

bringing 78:20

88:6 168:20

broad 64:5

brochures 37:13

broken 113:21

brought 24:10

141:16

Bruce 5:8 64:15

172:11

BTUs 161:8

buck-and-boost

159:18

budget 20:16 30:3

33:9 56:11 57:1

79:22

budgeted 56:12

build 57:7 59:16

103:22 115:9

144:4 171:2,10

building 3:8 25:6

34:12 47:13

67:18 85:22 89:6

90:5 92:2 101:3

buildings 97:13

buildup 46:15

built 9:2,9 22:6

35:16 89:10 91:8

148:6,22

built-in 8:4

bulbs 16:2

Bull 8:8,18

bundled 160:4

burden 112:15,18

burn 59:9 60:2

business 22:11,17

23:2,5 25:9 27:8

38:18 120:16

127:8

butterfly 162:4

buy 22:12 40:7

70:7,8,21 85:9

99:2 103:8

150:16

buying 103:6

buys 78:22

BVMs 28:8

C

cabinet 9:6 63:11

113:3 134:9

157:3 165:18

166:21,22 167:2

cabinets 9:5 63:15

calculating 54:21

calculation 10:15

143:18 171:16

candy 15:13,14

canopy 37:3

capable 67:11

capacity 55:1 58:1

144:21

capital 1:18 96:5

capture 49:21

62:10 75:19

captured

114:18,21

care 14:13 29:9

75:9 128:19

careful 98:14

137:5

case 8:19

9:12,13,16,22

10:4,10,16,20

13:3,12

14:14,16,21 15:2

16:22 17:9

23:14,18,20 24:5

25:1,11,14,16,18

,19,21,22 26:3

27:2,5,6,14,16

29:15

30:10,12,14,16,1

9,21,22

31:6,12,17,22

32:12,13 34:22

35:7,15,16,18

36:17,20,22

37:2,5 38:1 39:1

42:18 46:18

47:12 48:9

53:10,12 58:21

62:12

64:13,14,16,19

68:4,9,13,19

69:12,17

71:10,12

73:8,15,22

74:12,15 82:3

83:4 84:21 87:3

89:4,10,14 90:6

92:10 94:10 95:8

100:3,6 101:11

102:10,11

103:20

104:20,21,22

108:10 114:13

116:15,16

127:7,14 128:4

134:21 135:2,3

138:7,15,18,19

139:2,7,12

140:20 141:7

142:3,14

144:18,20

145:2,14

147:10,14

148:4,6,9,22

150:3,15

151:4,9,10,13,16

152:2 153:9

154:7

155:2,6,9,13

156:19

158:6,7,16

161:2,10 162:15

164:21

cases 9:18 10:7

11:16 14:20 15:4

16:20 20:12 22:9

35:11 37:1,8,9

38:7 48:8,9

53:3,4,5,11 54:4

55:7,14,16 56:2

64:22 65:22

67:5,6 71:19

72:6,14 84:18

85:14 86:9 92:13

95:6 100:18

102:15,16,17,20

103:10,19
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104:18,20

105:4,19,20

106:11,22

107:1,17 108:8

110:13 111:12

124:20 127:3,21

128:5,19 129:1

130:15 140:5,13

141:7,12

143:15,20

145:18

146:12,21 148:1

155:4 158:10

169:5,10,14

171:14

case's 144:21

casters 48:10

157:3

catalog 17:5 42:11

catch 81:15 109:20

category 27:20

129:2 130:4

155:3

caught 163:8

cause 97:19 156:3

causing 85:3

ceiling 26:9

central 99:5,7,8

100:9,17

101:3,19,20

105:2

centralized 138:13

centrally 100:6

certain 39:8 50:7

54:22 86:15

91:12 104:1

134:14

163:16,18,19,20

171:19

certainly 43:1 71:3

149:10 164:6

CERTIFICATE

177:1 178:1

certification

174:10

certified 117:20

153:22

certify 111:14

114:22 177:4

178:2

chain 102:17

chamber 87:21,22

89:17

chance 76:11

110:3

change 63:9 76:3

100:11 109:5

130:14 151:21

156:1

changed 130:11

132:12

changes 6:10 31:2

45:2 71:15

116:19

changing 33:11

characteristic

155:16

characteristics

64:6 161:6

Charlie 3:16 4:17

8:11 16:16 46:17

61:19 98:9

104:12 124:4

128:7 131:20

Charlie's 36:15

86:22

chart 125:3

cheap 20:2 95:22

cheaper 59:15

98:7

cheat 26:17,21

27:4

check 34:19 87:3

checking 79:10

chips 10:8 42:2

choice 67:12 86:10

105:17

choices 54:1,3

chop 148:8

chose 137:16

Chris 5:7

chunk 100:11

circuit 10:20,22

59:17 100:12

161:20 162:12

circuits 9:20 20:1

circulate 96:14

circulates 138:8

circumventing

19:11 39:6

claim 111:8,11,15

112:1,3

118:17,20

157:22 158:2

claimed 163:5,7

clarification 6:1

116:3 119:1

clarify 50:16 55:5

class 38:16 56:4

93:4 105:19,20

116:11,12

172:15 173:14

classes 34:9 56:6

116:9,14 130:18

classification

115:13

classifications

119:19

clean 108:4 151:9

cleaning 107:17

clear 16:9 25:19

27:12,13,20 87:7

96:20 152:6

154:17

clearly 4:2 12:13

15:20 19:8 27:18

115:6 139:3

clients 130:21

171:6

climates 45:21

49:19

clog 121:15

clogged 120:12

close 67:18 77:15

84:20 106:16

129:22

closed 53:4,12

closes 58:20

closing 46:13

clue 11:20

coal 127:6

coals 129:12

130:19,22

131:22 132:1

coat 128:11,14

131:12,18 132:9

coated 126:20

127:3,6,9 128:17

129:2,7,12

130:19,22

132:13

134:16,17

coating
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129:5,15,16,17,2

1 131:9,14

132:15,17,20

133:15

coatings 131:11

132:12,22

133:10 134:1

code 25:6 47:13

codes 54:17 86:1

92:2

coil 120:15 121:15

127:3,9 129:7

138:9,12 142:3

155:10 159:15

coils 120:12

126:20 128:17

132:13

coil's 122:20

coil-type 172:5

cold 140:17,21

collected 46:16

collects 45:7

Collin 4:22 19:7

52:21 62:15

74:10

Colorado 169:16

column 118:6

combat 86:6

combination

148:18

comes 17:18 24:20

31:2 44:17,18

58:22 70:1 72:10

74:5 75:22 79:1

114:7 115:22

145:22 147:1,22

151:13 152:3

165:1

coming 24:13 36:5

46:12

comment 21:9

23:1 55:15

109:16 138:2

147:18

comments 43:16

commerce 147:14

commercial 2:9,16

5:15,16 14:9

32:2 64:4 116:12

120:2 121:21

committed 112:13

committee 1:4

173:17

174:16,21 175:8

common 47:17

54:8 55:3 90:14

93:9 123:10,11

143:20

companies 90:7

173:7

company 1:18

116:7 131:2

158:18 173:1,9

compared 28:21

102:8

compartment

10:1,2 30:7 49:5

complete 2:14

17:2 140:8 178:7

completely 22:10

46:20 47:6

completion 81:20

complicated

61:9,11 105:1,9

106:6

comply 140:12

component 69:11

compressor 61:2

68:4 153:17

159:9,16,17

160:15,21

161:3,4,15,19

162:9

compressors

160:22

compressor's

161:8

concern 12:15

24:15 54:19

61:20 109:16

129:19 156:2,3

concerned 25:3

26:19

concerns 2:11 5:19

25:15 46:7 82:13

167:16

concluded 176:13

concrete 168:10

condensate

43:17,18 46:2

64:8 65:5 70:22

71:14,17 72:9,20

73:12

74:16,18,19

75:1,13

condensation

44:11,12 76:20

85:20 94:15 97:6

condenser 60:5

119:3 120:4,12

121:15 122:20

123:19 155:10

condensing 68:5

condition 46:21

77:19 78:8 83:10

85:17 86:8 88:13

97:21 101:8,13

113:12 114:4

conditioning

171:12 172:2

conditions 44:7

46:4,13,21 51:13

57:19,20 58:8

60:3 61:16 77:1

78:2 79:17

82:6,17 87:11

88:11,13,16,17,1

9,22 89:18 90:21

91:12 92:21

94:14

95:16,17,18

97:13 99:3

100:5,18 105:18

114:7 122:9

153:22 155:7

163:10

conducive 97:6

conducted 82:16

conduction 138:10

conduit 20:4 24:22

configuration

75:10

confirm 111:19

confused 135:2

Congress 130:13

Congressional

130:14

conjunction 101:2

144:19

connected 8:19

10:17 32:16

138:17 139:2

connection 110:5

connections 16:6

conservative

170:17
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consider 6:17 69:8

105:20

considered 6:20

7:14 8:4 101:4

116:20 127:2

considering 43:8

consistency 34:13

consistent 85:11

Consulting 5:1,3

consume 77:2,6,7

114:12 159:22

consumer 75:18

consumers 49:16

consumes 77:3

consuming 59:13

159:8

consumption

23:18 25:13

30:4,15 31:19,22

32:12 68:8,18

71:15 76:11

109:5 110:19

111:11,16 112:2

115:11 116:19

117:10,18

118:18 121:8

125:12 147:5

151:21 154:11

155:17 157:21

159:7

consumptions

35:5

contact 134:5

contained 18:9

37:1 55:3,21

64:14 72:14

73:2,22 84:18

155:4 158:10

contamination

106:12,17

content 31:13

continue 19:13

continued 57:16

continuous 104:19

continuously

144:2

contract 39:8

contrast 120:21

contribute 32:11

contributing

15:8,10 38:10

control 18:12

59:6,17 60:22

87:1,12 89:7,15

94:18 95:20,21

97:13 100:5,6,12

101:20

102:16,18,20

103:16 104:21

110:10 111:20

118:16 164:13

controlled 46:14

60:21 77:22

controller 99:2

100:8 103:9

controls 58:14

89:13 100:7

101:2,11 102:5,9

103:7,20 104:15

105:3,7 109:3

convection 138:11

convenience

23:14,19 24:19

25:8 36:12,13

66:2 68:21 69:15

70:18 71:6 147:1

convenient 71:3

conversation

130:17

cooking 11:19

cool 71:13

coolant 135:16

138:14,20 139:5

140:20

cooler 21:13

96:13,19 157:10

cooler/freezer

144:19 145:1,3,6

cooling 76:20

96:15 138:10

155:9

cope 132:12

copy 100:19

copyrighted 39:10

cord 7:17 18:19

19:5

cord-connected

8:10 18:11 22:15

corner 139:19

corporate 46:10

correct 12:11

24:17 32:4 38:20

81:22 106:2

141:5 171:1,8

178:7

correction 171:9

correctional 124:9

corrections

171:12,16

correctly 63:8

corrode 134:13

corrosion

133:13,14

cost 51:5 68:16

71:3 82:18

84:1,3 96:2,4,5

97:5 98:1,3,20

103:6,11,13

107:20 129:3,5

131:13 162:21

172:19 173:9

costs 11:1,2 71:6

107:19,22 108:1

146:3 172:22

count 11:12 26:8

68:8 81:18 95:11

counted 23:17

34:8 68:18 69:16

89:4 93:2

counter 22:18 23:9

127:7,21 128:2

130:6 131:7,18

counters

127:16,18

countless 18:13

country 163:16,21

169:4

couple 19:1 61:17

84:15 90:7

149:21 170:9,10

173:22 176:10

course 25:9

Court 177:1,2,14

178:3,5

coverage 6:19

covered 65:5

70:13 109:10,11

136:19

covers 64:5 123:12

124:7

crank 154:6

155:2,13 158:5,7

161:2,10

CRE 100:22
Capital Reporting Company

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148:18 164:7

cream 20:12 84:19

create 40:3 58:6

creating 38:16

creditors 10:5

criteria 76:4

critical 166:10

crossing 20:10

cumbersome

67:17

curious 83:17

current 55:8 161:1

166:21

currently 56:6

99:1 136:19

curtain 44:13

curtains 125:5,8,9

curved 17:21

customer 5:22

19:7 23:15,19

24:1,6 25:4 30:8

37:13,21 39:10

41:15 43:16

66:3,20 68:21

74:5 92:12 94:17

131:8 145:17

149:1

customer-driven

36:19 38:2 39:2

customers 6:11

7:3 11:16 25:8

28:20 53:14

54:2,3 70:18

71:20 85:19 92:6

97:12 99:1,5

100:7 110:14

128:1,18,19

129:1 145:11

146:2 147:1

149:22 150:8

151:12 158:8

customer's 28:18

38:22 88:19

144:3

Customers 28:17

113:7

cut 11:1

53:16,18,22 54:4

57:21 70:19

107:19 146:2

cycle 62:14

76:7,15 80:20

99:7 103:16

D

D.C 1:11

dairy 106:22

daisy 102:17

daisy-chaining

102:14 103:9

dance 26:14

Dane 5:13

63:1,4,6,21 64:7

164:8,12,20

165:1 166:13

167:4

danger 17:18 18:7

50:12

Darn 111:7

data 28:9 55:10

Date 178:13

day 31:3,4 33:4

59:10 60:3 61:14

days 76:14 83:1,5

93:8 150:15

deal 45:1 54:21

75:8 96:22

106:3,10 126:1

143:10 144:7

154:9 168:22

dealing 57:5 73:11

dealt 72:9,10

decal 21:13

decals 21:16,22

decide 12:22 19:12

172:15 173:1

decided 137:12,19

decision 25:9

decisions 173:1

174:16

decreases 161:9

defeats 33:1

defect 110:17

defer 23:4

definable 15:15

define 8:21 12:17

15:19,20

28:11,14 29:13

33:5 37:22 38:8

44:18 47:2

defined 15:5 23:9

34:4 112:8

definitely 28:9

55:15 64:2,20

81:13 112:13

156:19

definition 2:11

20:20 29:5 32:1

40:5 41:12 73:13

74:12 111:20

112:9 115:13

117:2,3,22

154:13 156:4,6

164:17

definitions 43:3,4

119:21 173:5

174:6,17

definitively 50:20

defrost 62:14

76:7,9 80:15

81:16,21 82:1,3

defrosted 46:15

degree 44:8

141:13

degrees 44:7

141:15

dehumidifier

44:14

deli 23:8 30:12

35:11 85:15

127:2,7,13,14,21

128:2,3,5 130:1

delicate 110:15

demand 131:8

demo 11:17,19

Denver 170:10

171:3

department 1:1

2:4 23:7 92:2

145:20 174:2,7

departments 23:8

dependent 87:17

depending 44:15

51:14 61:6 82:3

121:11 169:4

depends 7:12 20:9

46:20 49:1 62:11

87:20 109:6

121:7 131:8

140:19

describe 7:22 8:13

132:16 160:18

described 124:6

describing
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79:16,18

description 19:6

23:22

descriptor 58:4

design 53:21 68:19

74:5 85:22

89:1,3 92:11

94:22 95:6

100:4,18

123:20,22

designation

105:21

designed 8:4 9:9

17:1 48:11 53:6

64:17 74:2,4,14

82:4 94:15,19

102:21 144:18

designs 60:15

desirably 71:19

desire 154:4

details 167:8

determination

101:4

determined

115:19

device 67:6 87:1

159:1,2,3,4

160:11,12,13

172:5

devices 158:13

159:14

dicey 41:21

dictating 109:6

difference 7:1

22:1,14 63:10

77:18 98:3

115:11,12,14

122:14,18

123:1,3,6

differences 63:13

118:17 155:8

different 15:4

26:11,13 29:17

30:9,14 31:9

32:15 34:9 36:1

45:5 46:7,18,20

48:20 53:5 58:8

60:19

63:14,15,19,20

64:3,6 65:7 75:3

76:4,10 77:16

79:4 90:20,22

91:1 103:18,21

104:11,20

105:6,7 111:13

112:16

115:10,15,22

116:1,7,11,13,20

117:21

119:10,19,20

127:1 130:15

131:10,19

132:20 139:6

140:4 148:1,13

156:3 157:15,21

158:1 159:14

163:1 164:15,16

166:18 167:20

168:2,11

169:3,5,17 173:6

differential 129:4

differentiate 17:3

64:13

differentiation

128:15

differently 53:4

74:9

difficult 12:5

75:19 86:3

104:21 106:5

difficulty 33:13

129:20

digital 113:6,14

177:14

direct 135:1

138:18

direction 36:5

175:17 177:6

directly 139:2

170:4

disappointed

103:5

disasters 159:20

discharge 124:12

disclaim 146:6,10

disconnect 16:3,6

108:5

discuss 154:4,8

discussed 123:17

discussing 80:4

164:12 166:14

174:22

discussion 36:13

64:12 65:6

120:22

137:19,22

144:16

discussions 46:3

87:6

Disney 91:7

display 5:22

6:3,5,12,17 8:9

9:15 10:7 11:16

14:20 15:3,22

16:20 19:7,15

20:16 23:11,18

27:22 30:16

32:6,8,12

33:8,11 34:22

35:7 43:16 47:12

48:8 69:12 71:12

85:14 90:6 94:9

102:10,11

105:19,20

106:22 108:10

112:22 113:1,22

114:9,11,12

115:10 116:1

118:19 140:13

150:2

displaying 42:2

displays 7:18 8:18

9:1 32:2 113:7

dispute 79:2

distance 67:19

distinction 15:1

31:10

distinguish 91:14

132:14

dividing 23:7

document 34:10

43:9 100:20

117:16,17

documents 119:10

DOE 3:15 4:16

9:10 20:13,14

24:15 38:20 40:6

50:21 53:20,21

54:1,2 55:10

78:21 82:11 84:2

86:1 92:22 95:17

97:16 98:15

105:19 111:5

112:10 115:21

117:14 118:22

137:12 140:10

152:5 173:4,19

175:13

DOE's 34:1 63:13

101:4 105:16
Capital Reporting Company

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domestic 159:20

Dominic 5:12

done 16:2 24:12

41:11 49:9 60:2

66:2 68:1,20

69:14 77:19

131:9 132:19

146:19 171:11

door 6:18 21:15

22:2 36:22 37:3

84:19,20

91:16,17 93:8,12

94:7 96:21 97:5

99:3 103:17

104:1,14,22

156:14

doored 6:13

doors 20:11 25:16

46:11 84:13,16

86:4 91:4 93:14

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earlier 64:16 80:6

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Emerson 160:20

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108:8

encountering 51:4
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exercises 131:10

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filtration 147:20

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105:4,5

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79:11

floater 77:4,5,6

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floodlight 17:10

floodlights 13:9

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48:8,12,13

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68:5,15 69:20

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120:4,7,8,9,11,1

3 126:7,8

flow 162:3,6

flowers 110:15

flown 160:6

flows 140:21

fluctuates 51:14
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flush 152:17

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freebie 80:3

FREEMAN

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freestanding

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freezer 14:20

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gain 157:16

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175:18

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hail 124:11

half 6:18,19 50:14

62:2 78:15

Hampton 5:12

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4:7,11,14

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98:4,6,7 99:7

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51:5,9,22

52:3,5,7,10,14,1

7,19 54:14,17

55:4 57:3,6

58:5,9
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149:15 150:9

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image 43:13

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immediately 25:1

impact 53:11 77:4

111:1 124:15

147:4 152:15,16

153:5 154:12

155:17 157:5,6
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impacts 117:18

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implications 174:8

important 86:21

importers 156:21

impossible 141:21

improved 4:15

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improvements

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inability 92:1

inadequate 126:1

inappropriate

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inaudible 16:14

34:22 46:18 63:1

76:21 98:14

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107:7 129:12

132:3 135:20

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incentivizing

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inches 142:4

include 41:11

53:22 55:10 76:1

105:17 106:4

112:4

137:12,17,20

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173:9

included 17:10,11

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including 110:20

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pieces 173:11
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pipe 54:15 151:10

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11:10 14:18
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somehow 6:3

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stationary 48:6

statutory 32:1

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79:9,10 91:20

temperature 49:5
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112:21

113:3,7,22

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161:15

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158:11,12,13
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159:18 161:20

162:3,8,11 164:3

voltages 159:16

volts 159:21

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where's 46:11
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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 06-21-2013

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