### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute 2111 Wilson Blvd Suite 500 Arlington, Virginia

Monday, June 10, 2013 10:00 a.m.

R eported by: Natasha Thomas, Capital Reporting Company

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 F ACILITATOR 3 N eil Eisner, Navigant Consulting 4 5 P ARTICIPANTS 6 K arim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating and 7 R efrigeration Institute 8 T imothy Ballo, EarthJustice 9 J eff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning 10 L aura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy 11 J ohn Cymbalsky, U.S. Department of Energy 12 M ary Dane, Traulsen 13 P aul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc. 14 M ark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products 15 G eoffrey Halley, SJI Consultants, Inc. 16 C harles Hon, True Manufacturing 17 J ill Hootman, Trane 18 J ohn Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc. 19 D iane Jakobs, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 20 T om Johnson, Daikin McQuay 21 J eff Kleiss, Lochinvar 22 M ichael Kojak, Underwriters Laboratories LLC

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 A ris Marantan, U.S. Department of Energy 3 P eter Molvie, Cleaver-Brooks Product Development 4 K aren Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 5 F rank Myers, Pvi Industries, Inc. 6 M assoud Neshan, Southern Store Fixtures, Inc. 7 M ichael Rivest, U.S. Department of Energy 8 H arvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient 9 E conomy 10 R onald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation 11 F rank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 12 R efrigeration Institute 13 P hillip Stephens, Heat Transfer Products 14 C orey Tucker, U.S. Department of Energy 15 R obert Whitwell, Carrier Corporation 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. EISNER: There are some housekeeping 3 m atters. We have coffee behind here. So please help 4 y ourself. There is a machine that you can use for your 5 c offee and tea. 6 The restrooms. They are outside. There is a 7 c ode to the restrooms. It's going to be 1110. 8 And for lunch, there are several 9 p ossibilities. There is the Corner Bakery just in this 10 b uilding. You have Cosi just across the street and 11 W endy's and other things around here. So that's about 12 i t. 13 Internet, yes. We have wireless internet. 14 I f you want to access the internet, we have the 15 i nstructions on this sheet. 16 MS. BARHYDT: I want to thank AHRI for 17 h osting this meeting. 18 Just a couple of things. To make sure that 19 e verything is on the record, we ask that everyone speak 20 u p. The name cards are coming. And for those of you 21 o n the back rows, you can either speak extra loud or 22 s tand up whenever you are speaking just to make sure

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 5 1 t hat we get everything on record. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Most of you saw the email. 3 A shley had her baby. So in her place, even though we 4 k now we can't replace her fully, we are going to have 5 l ike a sort of a triage over here with Corey Tucker, 6 M ike Rivest, and Aris, who will help us out on the 7 t echnical stuff. So think of them as kind of like our 8

- - 9 (Crosstalk.) 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would offer up my services. 11 MR. EISNER: If anybody can't remember their 12 n ame without their name card, raise their hand. 13 E verybody's okay? 14 All right. We have a few process questions. 15 O ne, Department of Energy got a request between 16 m eetings for people who were not members of the 17 C ommittee to be put on the internal mailing list that 18 g oes out with copies of documents and things like that 19 b etween meetings but also like to be allowed to submit 20 c omments between meetings. Our ground rules don't 21 a ddress that. Our ground rules do say -- and they are 22 m ore liberal than I have seen in the past. My

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 6 1 e xposure, the ground rules say that they can speak at 2 a ny time. And they have. And I think everything has 3 g one smoothly. But it's up to you to decide whether 4 y ou want to allow them to have access to documents 5 b etween meetings and whether you want to allow them to 6 h ave the right to comment between the meetings. 7 Does anybody have any comments, any 8 q uestions? 9 MR. AMRANE: I think they should be allowed 10 t o comment. 11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Are there any objections 12 t o allowing them to do both of those things? 13 (No audible response.) 14 MR. EISNER: Okay. So allowed. 15 We also got during the interim in the 16 m eetings a working schedule draft from Rusty Tharp that 17 h as been modified a little bit by DOE and recirculated. 18 A nd, again, it's more for an informational tool, but 19 d oes anybody have suggestions on changes to the 20 c alendar, how we follow it? I think DOE is okay with 21 i t as it was written. Does anybody have suggestions, 22 t hings they would like to do in different order?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 7 1 I think having the calendar in front of us is 2 a good idea because, if nothing else, it tells us 3 w hether we are moving along at a reasonable rate or 4 f alling too far behind or even if we're getting ahead, 5 h ow much time we've got in terms of what is going on. 6 Does anybody have any adjustments they want 7 t o make to the calendar? 8 (No audible response.) 9 MR. EISNER: All right. Well, we will use 10 t hat as our working calendar for now. 11 The last thing I would note is this is our 12 l ast meeting before we have to make an interim report 13 t o the full ASRAC. That is due June 26. So we should 14 l eave sometime tomorrow to talk about that. If I 15 f orget, hopefully somebody will remind me because we 16 a ll have some agreement on what we want to report. 17 I t's not just up to me or to DOE to decide what to 18 r eport to the Committee. 19 Any questions? 20 MR. DOPPEL: On that, Ashley at the last 21 m eeting wanted to make sure we got a certain amount 22 t hrough that she was going to submit to ASRAC.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 8 1 MR. EISNER: Yes. 2 MR. DOPPEL: So has that already gone or -- 3 MR. EISNER: No. That I think we want to 4 t alk about first thing this morning. 5 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. 6 MR. EISNER: You are talking about the scope 7 i ssues. That is what she wants to get through, is a 8 f inal report to them on the scope issues. In fact, 9 w hen they directed us on what to do, they did not 10 s uggest that we look at the scope issues. That is 11 s omething more than what we were supposed to do. DOE 12 w ould like to move ahead with the rulemaking. So we 13 w ould like to get that report or they would like to get 14 t hat report out from this Committee this week. 15 Any other questions? And if not, we can 16 s tart with the scope. 17 MR. STANONIK: Is anybody on the phone? 18 MR. EISNER: Oh, that's a good point. Phone 19 p eople? Everything is working smoothly? Okay. Any 20 q uestions, comments? 21 MR. HALLEY: I have a question concerning the 22 t esting of gas-fired boilers versus oil-fired boilers.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 9 1 A nd the difference, if you've got a certain boiler 2 w hich is fired on gas and then you switch it to oil, 3 t hen there is an offset, if you like, between 4 e fficiencies. It is a thing that appears to have been 5 u sed by DOE in setting the efficiency standards for 6 g as-fired versus oil-fired units. And it's typically 7 i n the two to three percent range difference. If you 8 f ire a gas-fired boiler, then the same oil-fired, same 9 b oiler oil-fired, it is going to be two to three 10 p ercent higher in efficiency. And it's because of the 11 f uel, basically the carbon/hydrogen ratio of the fuel. 12 A nd so it's always going to be that. So is it 13 p ermissible if you fire a gas-fired boiler to say the 14 e fficiency of the oil-fired boiler is going to be two 15 a nd a half, three percent higher? 16 MR. EISNER: Is that an issue under scope? I 17 d on't think it -- 18 MR. HALLEY: No. 19 MR. EISNER: Okay. It isn't? 20 MR. HALLEY: I know we talked about 21 e fficiency. 22 MR. EISNER: We -- yes. We --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 10 1 MS. BARHYDT: Well, so -- 2 MR. EISNER: Is there a short answer? 3 MS. BARHYDT: This is a commercial package 4 b oiler? 5 MR. HALLEY: Yes. 6 MS. BARHYDT: So the basic model definition 7 t hat people put forward last time was that it has the 8 s ame primary energy source? 9 MR. HALLEY: Well, so the energy source is 10 g as in one case and oil in the other. So is it two 11 d ifferent basic models? 12 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 13 MR. HALLEY: Yes. Okay. That's what I 14 t hought, but it is this sort of two and a half, three 15 p ercent offset that always happens between a gas-fired 16 a nd an oil-fired. 17 MS. BARHYDT: So they would be rated 18 d ifferently. 19 MR. HALLEY: They would be rated differently. 20 A nd they are in the requirement, you know, the -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 22 MR. HALLEY: -- efficiency requirements.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 11 1 MS. BARHYDT: So I am not sure I understand. 2 MR. AMRANE: I think he's asking whether -- 3 MR. HALLEY: Right. 4 MR. AMRANE: You have to evaluate both basic 5 m odels because you know the answer to the oil-fired 6 b ecause the gas-fired -- 7 MR. STANONIK: Yes. So far you have crafted 8 t he AEDM, but if the manufacturer had the data that 9 s upported that when I test my designs on gas or oil or 10 w hatever and I have a clearly established relationship 11 t hat it's X percent difference, the AEDM actually is 12 f lexible enough to encompass that. 13 MR. HALLEY: Right. I just wanted to know if 14 i t was permissible to do that. 15 MS. BARHYDT: So you can make the AEDM span 16 p roduct classes. 17 MR. HALLEY: Right. 18 MS. BARHYDT: And I think that is what you 19 a re asking about, but that is a different issue than 20 w hat is the basic model because it is not a one-to-one 21 r elationship between a basic model and an AEDM -- 22 MR. HALLEY: Okay.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 12 1 MS. BARHYDT: -- or it doesn't have to be. 2 T here is no requirement for that. 3 MR. EISNER: Okay. The first issue we have 4 t o address is the recommendation to ASRAC and the scope 5 i ssues. And, as I recall, there was one outstanding 6 i ssue. It was the invalid rating repercussions. And 7 t here is a separate slide on that. We wanted to talk 8 a bout that slide at the beginning of this meeting so we 9 c ould resolve whether or not we can finalize that 10 p ackage. Any comments, questions, issues? 11 MALE SPEAKER: Is there any way, Mr. 12 C hairman, for you to move down towards the end so you 13 c ould talk towards us? Because when you talk, it goes 14 i n that corner over there. 15 MR. EISNER: Okay. Can you move those? 16 MALE SPEAKER: It's lost, at least for me. 17 MR. EISNER: All right. So let's start with 18 t he chart. I'll get my chair higher if I can. Any 19 q uestions, issues? 20 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from 21 C arrier. I guess I have a couple of questions. The 22 l ist on the left, you know, there are some specific

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 13 1 n umbers there. And my question I guess is maybe not 2 s pecifically related to the -- oh, it is related, too. 3 I 'm wondering what DOE's plan is as far as number of 4 u nits that they would test for validation. And the 5 r eason I'm asking that question is because, you know, 6 s ome manufacturers are going to have more basic models 7 t han others. And if it's the same number that are 8 t ested for every manufacturer that would be -- you 9 k now, I don't know if that is the right way, if one has 10 m ore models than others. But if you test more units 11 f rom some manufacturers than others, then it wouldn't 12 s eem correct to me that there would be a single set of 13 n umbers there in the left-hand column. 14 So I guess it might be helpful for us, at 15 l east for me, if DOE could talk a little bit about the 16 s ample size that they're looking at or how many units 17 a nd whether it is a percentage of basic models 18 c ertified or what the criteria is for selecting the 19 u nits to be tested. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So typically, we try to select 21 m odels that range across a variety of manufacturers. 22 W e don't usually just pick from one manufacturer. We

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 14 1 t ry and select across a range of prototypes and within 2 a product type, the different equipment classes. We 3 t ry and pick from a range of equipment classes. We do 4 n ot do a certain percentage of basic models. Obviously 5 a t this point, nobody is actually certified in basic 6 m odels. So that wouldn't have been a basis for us to 7 m ake a selection in the past anyway. But it's 8 d ifficult to say that we're going to test this 9 p ercentage or something like that because it's so 10 r esource-specific. And year to year, we don't know 11 e xactly what our funding is going to be. So it is 12 g oing to be variable. 13 I can tell you that, from my perspective, 14 l ooking at it and knowing that we choose a range of 15 p roducts and we choose a range of manufacturers, it's 16 n ot like testing two. I mean, that is two that have 17 h ad invalid ratings. So already unless the ratings are 18 r eally bad, we have had to test more than 2 or, else, 19 w e're hitting 100 percent. And whether a manufacturer 20 h as a lot of basic models or one basic model, if we 21 h ave hit two within an AEDM that are invalid, then it 22 c alls into question the AEDM the same way regardless,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 15 1 t hat if we have hit two that are not rated right for 2 t hat particular AEDM, whatever the manufacturer has 3 c hosen to put within that AEDM, it is the same degree 4 o f amount that is not rated right. So it doesn't make 5 s ense to me conceptually to make it based on a 6 p ercentage. There have been two that were not rated 7 r ight. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. If 9 y ou have a test that is not good at the beginning of 10 t he 3-year period, then you have 20 that are good, and 11 t hen at the end of the 3-year period, you have another 12 o ne that is bad, it just doesn't seem like that that 2 13 i s a good number, then, because, you know, you are 14 t alking 10 percent of all the tests. 15 MR. STANONIK: But this is per AEDM. 16 MR. DOPPEL: I know. And that is what I'm 17 s aying. Per AEDM. 18 MR. STANONIK: Can you give an example 19 t hat in a three-year period, DOE would be testing 22 20 m odels of an AEDM? 21 MR. DOPPEL: We don't know. 22 MS. BARHYDT: One AEDM.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 16 1 MR. DOPPEL: That's one of the questions. We 2 d on't know what the sample size is. 3 MS. BARHYDT: We don't know. 4 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, do you think it would 5 b e similar to what we have seen in the past or what you 6 h ave seen in the past? 7 MR. STANONIK: What do we test overall? I 8 t hink overall we test by a couple of thousand units. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 10 MR. WHITWELL: We have 30-some programs. 11 MS. BARHYDT: For a single manufacturer. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 13 MR. WHITWELL: It depends on the program, 14 d epends on the product, depends on the models that we 15

- - 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And so -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: The numbers could be over 50 18 f or a manufacturer and for one program over a 3-year 19 p eriod. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So -- and I am not 22 a sking anyone to answer this out loud, but think about

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 17 1 h ow you do your modeling right now and how many units 2 A HRI would test based on that individual model in a 3 t hree-year period. And we're saying that two of those 4 w ere not rated right outside of tolerance because there 5 a re tolerances built in here as well. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Let me just make sure you said 7 s omething there. Individual model? 8 MALE SPEAKER: It's AEDM. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: So the AEDM. Yes. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So we've tested individual 11 m odel within the AEDM. So how many individual models 12 w ithin our conceptual framework that we have worked out 13 f or an AEDM would AHRI test in a three-year period, 14 a lso keeping in mind that you as a manufacturer can 15 d ecide how big your AEDM is and how much is within that 16 A EDM. I mean, there are a lot of ways that you as a 17 m anufacturer can control this process as well, not to 18 m ention that -- I am somewhat speculating here, but if 19 D OE comes to you and says, "We had one that was outside 20 o f tolerance," my guess is that you are going to look 21 a t your own stuff. And if you are confident that that 22 w as a fluke or whatever, then I guess I am still not

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 18 1 r eally seeing a two over a three-year period. It's not 2 l ike you have no notice of the first one either. 3 MR. EISNER: Do you know about the number 4 b eing limited or concern that the number of tests can 5 g o up but the number would still be two? In other 6 w ords, DOE could have more resources, do more tests, 7 b ut you would still have only two failures and it might 8 b e over 50 tests, instead of what you have been doing 9 r ight now, which might be 20? 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, I just don't 11 h ave any feel for what, you know, two units, two 12 f ailures, what that represents in terms of percentage? 13 I s it two? Is it two out of four? I mean, that to me 14 i s not going to happen, right? But if it's 2 out of 15 1 00, that could happen. 16 MR. EISNER: Nor if DOE is concerned with 17 p ercentages is there a way to work in just a simple 18 n umber up to so many tests two, up to so many tests 19 t hree. If you are doing a certain amount now, it 20 s ounds like what they are asking for is some assurance 21 t hat if the numbers go up, so will the number two. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Right. That is still kind of a

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 19 1 p ercentage. It's a percent of -- it's two up until -- 2 I see what you are saying. 3 MR. EISNER: It is a little -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: Is there a number that would 5 m ake you more comfortable? 6 MS. MEYERS: I think it is hard to put a 7 n umber on it because -- this is Karen Meyers with 8 R heem. Because of the numerous, especially on the HVAC 9 s ide, combinations that an AEDM could contain, which 10 c ould be thousands of combinations, you know, two, you 11 k now, could be a very small percentage. You could have 12 a n AEDM and only, you know, for a very specific 13 s pecialized product line, you may have a separate AEDM 14 t hat may cover ten different models. And two, then, is 15 a significant number. But if you have an AEDM that 16 c ontains thousands of possible combinations, two is a 17 v ery insignificant number. 18 MR. EISNER: Is it the number of 19 p ossibilities or the number of likely tests that is of 20 c oncern? It sounds to me like it's the latter. 21 MR. STANONIK: If you look at that first 22 c olumn and imagine that you had -- this is something

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 20 1 t hat I had sent to you and Ashley earlier on as far as 2 w hat we were doing in our program. Let's say you had 3 t hree headings and the heading -- this would be number 4 o f models tested in the AEDM in three calendar years. 5 O kay? So let's say the first box -- make up numbers -- 6 1 to 25, 26 to 50, and over 50. And then you could 7 a ssign under each one of those columns corresponding to 8 l ike -- you know, 1 to 25 might be 2, 4, 6, 8, so on. 9 A nd then I don't know what 26 to 50 would be. I mean, 10 t hat kind of gets to your point. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So that's similar to the 12 A HRI program -- 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 14 MR. WHITWELL: -- where depending on the 15 n umber of basic models you have, there is a different 16 n umber of failures before you trigger the consequences. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Were you suggesting the number 18 o f basic models that they have certified or the number 19 o f models tested? 20 MR. STANONIK: No. Tested. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 22 MR. STANONIK: It would be tested because, I

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 21 1 m ean, to me, in my way of thinking, that seems to be 2 t he indicator. And if DOE has tested so many and you 3 h ave, you know, let's say, two out of four failures, 4 t wo out of four failures in three years, to me the 5 a ntennas should start going off that something isn't 6 r ight. On the other hand -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Two out of 100 is. 8 MR. STANONIK: Two out of 100 is like, "Oh, 9 w ait a minute," you know. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers from PVI. Is 12 t here a number above and below that we could keep it in 13 t wo columns, as opposed to going to three or more? Is 14 i t possible to get comfortable with the column that is 15 t here now, 1 to 25? And you could have a second column 16 t hat is over 25, thinking realistically about the 17 n umber of tests that DOE could even potentially do. 18 MR. STANONIK: Keep in mind this is a model 19 w ithin a single AEDM. And I would venture that if DOE 20 t ested any one of yours, 25 of your models with a 21 s ingle AEDM, I would start to think you were getting 22 p icked on because there are lots of manufacturers, lots

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 22 1 o f products, and your budget isn't infinite. 2 MR. SACHS: Frank, you are not saying that 3 y ou would trust DOE, are you? 4 MR. STANONIK: I would say sometimes it's 5 w orth being pragmatic and on a practical basis, things 6 g et -- you know, what you imagine you can't have. Yes. 7 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI 8 a gain. As a starting point, perhaps we have the numbers 9 t hat are there now for 1 to 25 tests and then double 10 t hose numbers for 25 or greater, just as a discussion 11 s tarting point. 12 MR. EISNER: Thoughts on that? Does that 13 a ddress the concerns? 14 MR. MYERS: Do you think you are getting that 15 t his year or next year? 16 MS. MEYERS: Yes. This is Karen with Rheem. 17 I would recommend that 25 be 35. And it's how we do it 18 t oday in the industry. And that is on, you know, a lot 19 o f HVAC testing. So I would prefer if that were 35. 20 MS. BARHYDT: This one? 21 MS. MEYERS: Yes. 22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 23 1 MS. MEYERS: Under 35 and then 36 and above. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Change on the bottom? 3 MS. MEYERS: Yes. 4 MR. SACHS: Since this is strictly for 5 c ommercial equipment, where we don't have -- I'm just 6 a sking whether we have so much diversity that -- 7 MS. MEYERS: We probably have more diversity 8 o n the commercial than we do on residential. 9 MR. SACHS: On the AEDMs, too. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it depends on what is 11 i ncluded in the basic models. If it includes -- that's 12 t he next discussion that we're going to have, is what's 13 i n the basic model. 14 MR. SACHS: Okay. 15 MR. WHITWELL: But I think our going-in point 16 g oing into these negotiations, we assumed that there 17 w as a lot of stuff included in the basic model 18 d efinition, which causes the AEDM to be very, very 19 c omplicated. 20 MR. SACHS: That's your choice. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it depends on the basic 22 m odel definition that comes out of the next discussion.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 24 1 MR. SACHS: Okay. Thank you. That's 2 h elpful. 3 MS. BARHYDT: So are you saying that you 4 w ould draw your lines for what is within AEDM in a 5 d ifferent way depending on the basic model definition? 6 MR. WHITWELL: No, no. What I was saying was 7 t hat the basic model definition is going to drive what 8 w e have to include in the AEDM. Like, for example, if 9 e conomizers are included in the basic -- we've got to 10 f actor the impact of economizer on EPR in the AEDM, 11 s ame with all of the other things that we discussed 12 l ast time and we'll discuss later today. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So your concern is that 14 w e might test one within -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: It's unrelated to these 16 c olumns. I was just responding to Harvey's question 17 a bout the complexity of the -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But I think I'm hearing 19 a concern, and I don't really understand it. So I want 20 t o make sure I understand. Your concern is that we 21 m ight test a unit with an economizer, without an 22 e conomizer, with a TXV, and with copper, four different

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 25 1 u nits, and say that that was four different things, as 2 o pposed to one or -- 3 MR. WHITWELL: No. 4 MS. BARHYDT: No. Okay. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: No. If we're in the certified 6 r ange and those things are now part of the basic model, 7 w e would have to have some kind of modeling in our AEDM 8 t hat is simulating that. And we don't right now. 9 MS. BARHYDT: But it would still be within 10 A EDM. 11 MR. WHITWELL: That would be one AEDM; right? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: It could be done. It could be 13 m ore. 14 MALE SPEAKER: It could be more. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, it would be an 16 A EDM for that particular -- 17 MALE SPEAKER: Right. 18 MR. WHITWELL: -- that would include that 19 p articular basic model, right. I mean, it's what's out 20 t here. 21 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. I have just a 22 q uestion about how this would work out in practice.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 26 1 S ay you have tested 35 models. You pick two that 2 d idn't match up. Now you have gone and continued 3 t esting, test 35. When you hit four, do you trigger 4 t he same different testing requirement or do you wait 5 u ntil you get to eight at that point? 6 MS. BARHYDT: That's a good question. 7 MR. STANONIK: It seems like -- again, in 8 y our example, two failures. Now you're to the 9 c onsequence; right? And so, again, nothing happens. 10 S o you have to resolve the questions that come up 11 b efore they actually get to any -- yes. In essence, 12 y ou're resetting because either you're going to somehow 13 c orrect the AEDM if that's where the problem was or 14 s atisfy DOE that the AEDM conceptually was okay, but 15 t hese models were produced badly, for lack of a better 16 w ord. 17 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure that the way I 18 e nvisioned this is a reset because the reality is that 19 w e're not taking up every test lab in the country to 20 t est one manufacturer's models from one AEDM all at the 21 s ame time. 22 MS. MEYERS: Wait. Would you say it one more

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 27 1 t ime? 2 MS. BARHYDT: I'm saying that, as a practical 3 m atter, there is no way that we have eight models 4 w ithin the same AEDM in a test lab at one time. I 5 m ean, that's not realistic. 6 MS. MEYERS: Okay. 7 MS. BARHYDT: So let's say we're testing over 8 t hree years and we test one and it is an invalid rating 9 a nd we test and we test two and it is an invalid rating 10 a nd we send out a letter saying, "You need to do some 11 m ore testing to validate your AEDM." And then six more 12 m onths go by. We test another one. And it also has an 13 i nvalid rating. And four more months go by. And it 14 a lso has an invalid rating. We are now at four. We 15 a re not at two. So that was no reset after the first 16 t wo when we sent out that letter. Otherwise we would 17 n ever get past two. 18 MR. DOPPEL: Paul with Mitsubishi. I think 19 a ny manufacturer that would go beyond two without 20 r esetting, I mean, you are just asking for a lot of 21 p roblems. So, I mean, it just seems like two would be 22 t he maximum. And then you'd be forced to reset. You

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 28 1 k now, again, we're talking about commercial equipment. 2 A nd that's expensive equipment. And I just can't 3 i magine that many being tested in a short period of 4 t ime. The three-year period seems too long. 5 MS. BARHYDT: You all asked for the three6 y ear period. 7 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that was what was 8 p roposed, but -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: I think we started out with one 10 a nd -- 11 MR. DOPPEL: Right. 12 MS. MEYERS: Well, you know, I think 13 m anufacturers constantly tweak their AEDMs. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 15 MS. MEYERS: Constantly. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 17 MR. STANONIK: I think in your example -- so 18 l et's say again you had two failures; right? And, 19 e verything else aside, those two models either went 20 a way or they got rerated; right? I mean, that's fixed; 21 r ight? And so when a manufacturer choice is either to 22 d o additional testing to, in fact, confirm again that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 29 1 t he original AEDM was still correct or essentially 2 c orrect or when people say, "Reset" to me, that means 3 t hey actually modified their AEDM, which would 4 e ffectively affect all models rated by the AEDM. 5 R ight? In that last circumstance, in that last 6 c ircumstance, to me, you have reset because you, in 7 f act, have taken the entire basket of models covered by 8 t he AEDM and changed their rating. 9 MR. STANONIK: And then that's a new AEDM. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: You might not. This is Jill 11 f rom Trane. But you might not, in fact, change those 12 r atings. 13 MR. STANONIK: Right. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not saying you haven't gone 15 b ack and done a reality check. 16 MR. STANONIK: Yes. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: So, I mean, this is the 18 v isualization I -- 19 MR. STANONIK: But if you haven't, let's say, 20 a ccepted to change the AEDM, that's where you get the 21 t est three and four done because if they happen -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: But we're not checking your

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 30 1 A EDMs. 2 MR. STANONIK: Yes. 3 MS. BARHYDT: We are not delving into it. We 4 a re not looking at the analysis. So we're not 5 v erifying that you did anything other than that you did 6 a dditional testing within the first two. 7 MR. STANONIK: What I meant to say, in that 8 c ase, if there is additional failure, they add to the 9 t wo. And so that is where you get to the next step in 10 t he consequences. So, you know, if you have got to 11 t hat trigger of two and in Jill's case, okay, they 12 f igured something out but they really didn't change the 13 A EDM and DOE happens to test some more of those models 14 w ithin that AEDM and those also failure, now it's not 15 t wo new two. It's three and four. So then you get to 16 t he step two of the consequences because it's still the 17 s ame AEDM in concept. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, okay. Let me look 19 t hrough the scenario that I'm envisioning. This is 20 J ill from Trane. Envisioning. So I have an AEDM that 21 b y if we get to the discussion of basic models by that 22 d escription, I've got 500 or so that are covered by it.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 31 1 W e test whatever, however many. One of those we find 2 i s a problem. I'm going to take that information back. 3 I 'm going to change things about my AEDM. It will have 4 a new version. And it will be under a new version 5 c ontrol. So now it's a version .2 or whatever. 6 Now, sometime later you test another one and 7 y ou find -- that doesn't mean in all those 500 ratings 8 I go back and redo. They might still be fine by the 9 n ew version. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. That's what I'm saying. 11 W e might not change ratings, you know, by the new 12 v ersion, it may not have affected other models that are 13 i n that AEDM. It may. It may not. I can't say. You 14 k now, I mean, it just depends what the nature of it is. 15 T hen let's say you come back at some point in that 16 t hree- year period and you have tested another one and 17 n ow we're to the trip of two. Okay? We're on another 18 v ersion of that. So now we're looking back. We're on 19 a nother AEDM? Because every single time, then, every 20 s ingle time I'm getting an AHRI test back, I'm looking 21 a t that. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 32 1 MS. HOOTMAN: So there are 30 to 50 of those 2 c oming back every single year. 3 MS. BARHYDT: So to make this easy, let's 4 a ssume that I am not testing anything that's passing 5 r atings. So I test one. Invalid rating. Test two. 6 I nvalid rating. You are now required to go back and do 7 s ome testing. And you check your AEDM. Maybe you 8 r erate some stuff. Maybe you don't rerate some stuff. 9 B ut you have met your requirement to go back and look 10 a t your AEDM, maybe do some additional testing. We 11 t est a third one. Invalid rating. Test a fourth one. 12 I nvalid rating. At this point, from our perspective, 13 y ou may have changed that thing 25 times. You may have 14 c hanged it 200 times. We don't care. All we know is 15 t hat we're up to four tests that you still have not -- 16 f our for four. You still have not come up with a valid 17 r ating. We test another one. We test another one. 18 Y ou may have changed it 25 times. You may have tested 19 i t 5,000 times at this time. You're just tweaking the 20 h eck out of this thing. 21 MS. MEYERS: But it's not that -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: But they still have six ratings

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 33 1 w here you still have not been able to come up with a 2 v alid rating. 3 MS. MEYERS: Right. But it's not the same 4 A EDM. This is -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: No. In the case I was talking 6 a bout, I was saying, let's say, you had one AEDM 7 c overing 500 models. 8 MS. MEYERS: Oh, okay. 9 MS. BARHYDT: And so the version control part 10 o f it, we're not looking at version 1, version 1.1, 11 1 .2. 12 MS. MEYERS: Right. 13 MS. BARHYDT: We're saying this is your model 14 f or these types of products and that you may be working 15 o n it every single day of the week. But we're 16 c oncerned about this is the model that I'm using to 17 r ate these products. 18 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from Rheem. 19 S o it seems like this chart is more about the 20 m anufacturers' ability to use an AEDM to develop -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: And have it generate -- 22 MS. JAKOBS: -- appropriately, rather than --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 34 1 MS. BARHYDT: -- appropriately. 2 MS. JAKOBS: -- as being a specific AEDM. 3 MS. BARHYDT: I think, if I understand the 4 d istinction you are making, yes. 5 MR. DOPPEL: So Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 6 S o this is almost like saying that it doesn't matter 7 w hich AEDM you are using if you have multiple failures. 8 MS. BARHYDT: We have limited it to a single 9 A EDM. 10 MR. DOPPEL: But if you had four failures of 11 f our tests from four different AEDMs, then that chart 12 s ays there is no action taken. 13 MS. BARHYDT: That is correct. 14 MR. DOPPEL: But I am also hearing that you 15 a re not checking AEDMs. So how do you know which AEDM 16 a unit is associated with? 17 MS. BARHYDT: So my expectation is that 18 s omething in the certification is going to tell us what 19 A EDM different things are tied to. 20 MR. AMRANE: But checking AEDMs, it could be 21 t he same AEDM because, say, AEDM -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: Well, there is a criminal

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 35 1 p rovision about -- there is some expectation of 2 t ruthfulness. 3 MR. DOPPEL: It doesn't seem viable, though. 4 MS. MEYERS: Yes. Because, I mean, we get 5 n ew specifications from suppliers all the time, from 6 m otor suppliers, compressor suppliers, that always are 7 c ausing us to tweak our AEDM. So you are going to have 8 d ifferent AEDMs all the time. 9 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 10 N ational. The thing, too, you can use 1,000 AEDMs. 11 Y ou're going to have to have two tests for every one 12 t hat you create. It's going to put more work for you up 13 f ront. I mean, it's a lot. 14 As you said, there's a ton of flexibility in 15 h ere. A manufacturer could have 500 AEDMs for your 500 16 m odels or could have 1 AEDM and we have to do 2 tests 17 b ut take that huge risk of, hey, I could really get 18 k nocked down here. 19 Give you a little bit of the numbers we're 20 k nocking around. I mean, going back to one of the 21 e xamples, Paul, you had at the beginning, if they 22 t ested 20 miles in 3 years, calendar years, which, as

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 36 1 I 've looked back at this thing, that is what I have a 2 b it of an issue with, if they tested 20 and told them, 3 " That's 10 percent failure," I don't think anybody is 4 g oing to be happy with 10 percent failure on something 5 a round here. Yes. Two out of 20 is not good. That 6 w ould tell me there is something wrong, tell you guys 7 t here is something wrong with that AEDM. 8 It seems to me like it's always better going 9 b ack to the numbers, but look at that timeline. I 10 t hink the three calendar years we had some side 11 d iscussions and it sort of came out of some of the 12 d elays that AHRI does their program because they do it 13 b ased on a calendar year, it almost seems to me like it 14 w ould be better off doing unless DOE is going to have 15 t hat similar type of a beginning-of-the-year program 16 t hat they are going to certify in the way that AHRI 17 d oers is that you are better off saying 24 consecutive 18 m onths, you have 2 failures or you have, you know, 19 w hatever those numbers are is looking at that way 20 b ecause to meet a calendar puts in a lot of unknowns. 21 I t could be you could be 12 months and 2 days from one 22 t est to another. It was bad. It could be 36 months

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 37 1 f ully, you know. 2 MS. BARHYDT: I think my preference would be 3 t o just do a ruling. 4 MR. BAUMAN: Twenty-four months failure if 5 y ou think failures are -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: So I have heard several times 7 t hat people want to narrow the three years down. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Three years is a long time. 9 MR. BAUMAN: Well, I guess part of the 10 q uestion -- this goes back to some of the side 11 d iscussions we have had with AHRI about whether Frank 12 o r -- you know, I think you had reasons that you felt 13 t hat the calendar years was a better way to base it 14 t han the wrong way. So I think we ought to flush that 15 o ut, too, and see what the thoughts are on that side of 16 i t. 17 MR. STANONIK: Our program does run on the 18 c alendar year. I mean, you know, basic operation of 19 t he program is every year they come up with a list of 20 m odels they intend to test for that year and then over 21 t he course. You know, you schedule the test over the 22 c ourse of the year. And the programs aren't considered

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 38 1 o n a test-year basis. But the other part of that, part 2 o f the discussion, I think, here was that it doesn't 3 n ecessarily mean that company X has all their models 4 w hich they always test in January or test year and 5 c ompany Y always has all their models tested in 6 S eptember of the test year, but, you know, scheduling 7 i s a tricky thing. So I think that was one of the 8 c oncerns, at least the discussion we had, that keeping 9 t his the calendar year, everybody effectively in a 10 g iven year has the same risk, regardless of where it is 11 o n the calendar. Pretty much just I think going to 12 c heck, we do have -- I think what he is going to check 13 i s neither of us remember there is maybe a provision 14 a bout looking back. 15 MS. MEYERS: There is. 16 MR. BAUMAN: In other words, what if in one 17 y ear, we did see from a given manufacturer, let's just 18 s ay, an unusual number of failures? Then perhaps we 19 c an look back and see if it fits some pattern. Then we 20 s ay, "Well, wait a minute." Just, you know, this 21 w asn't an anomaly. There is some history here that 22 s uggests that something left the track, so to speak.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 39 1 B ut it is still a calendar year basis. 2 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. I 3 w ant to bring something else up. Is that from when the 4 t esting is complete in the three-year calendar year? 5 B ecause what happens if you pick a unit you want to 6 t est and all the third party test labs are booked up 7 f or six months and then it goes in, there's a failure, 8 a nd then the manufacturer says that it wasn't set up 9 r ight and then you have to reschedule for both you guys 10 t o come out there? There's another delay in scheduling 11 a t the third party lab and it ends up going outside of 12 t he three years. Is it from when you pick, when you 13 w ant the test, or when the test is fully completed? 14 MS. BARHYDT: I think it was from unit 15 s election. 16 MR. KOJAK: I think that should be in there, 17 t oo, because -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: You probably need to specify 19 t hat. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 21 MR. KOJAK: Especially if they say they can't 22 m anufacture it. I mean, there can be a lot of time

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 40 1 g etting wasted with -- 2 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 3 MR. KOJAK: -- trying to actually test. 4 MR. WHITWELL: And I think that's where the 5 t hree years came from. There was concern about that, 6 y ou know, how long it might take to go through the 7 s econd sample if it was deemed that that was necessary 8 t o get a unit. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Like that? 10 MR. WHITWELL: So the 24-month period starts 11 w hen the first unit is selected. And then it goes for 12 2 4 months. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Months. 14 MR. WHITWELL: And then -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: And then it drops off. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Then a new 24-month period 17 w ould start with the first unit selected after that. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Basically so let's say we 19 s elect a unit and we test it and it's not rated 20 p roperly. That would start the 24 months. And then we 21 h ave some that pass. And then we have one that fails. 22 A nd then we hit 24 months after this one. That first

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 41 1 o ne is going to drop off. And then the 24 months is 2 r eset to the second one that had not met the rating. 3 S o basically it's just a constant rolling whenever 4 t here is something that didn't make the rating. 5 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak again. So 6 d oes the 24 months start after the unit has failed to 7 m eet the rating or when it was selected? It was when 8 i t -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: Based on selecting, so 10 e verything based on unit selection. 11 MR. KOJAK: But the first unit, really, the 12 2 4 months should be starting after it shows that it has 13 f ailed. That is when the 24 months should start 14 b ecause what if it takes 8 months to even test the unit 15 j ust from the selection. You know what I mean? So it 16 s hould be the 24 months should start after it's deemed 17 t hat it's not meeting its rating. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Like that? 19 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. 20 W hy would we not go with 24 rolling months, failure to 21 f ailure, failure being identified by DOE, "This product 22 h as failed"? When you do a look-back 24 months and see

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 42 1 i f there are any others, this variability is going to 2 o ccur in there with every unit tested. And if we are 3 l ooking at selection dates, then it can be all over the 4 m ap, but if we look at failures, that's when we get a 5 d ocument from you saying it's failed. Then you look 6 b ack to the previous failure date. And it's a rolling 7 f ailure. 8 MS. BARHYDT: I think my concern is as we go 9 t hrough the process and let's say we do a test and it 10 c omes out and shows that it didn't meet the rating but 11 i t wasn't one of the ones the manufacturer preselected 12 t o be at the witness testing, so they get a retest, and 13 s o this process can actually last quite a long time and 14 s o for us to have selected a unit within the 24 months 15 b ut then to have the process drag out and then we can't 16 t ake any action because the process itself of actually 17 t esting, having the discussions and before we actually 18 r each a determination of failure, I don't like the idea 19 t hat that could be dragged out just so that it didn't 20 f all within a 24-month period. 21 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 22 N ational. I am not sure if I understood, Laura. My

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 43 1 p hone when the clock would start ticking is not when 2 y ou got that first notification of failure because, 3 r eally, at that point if you have a witness test or 4 w hatever, nothing has really happened to you. The 5 c lock would start when you have had your chance at the 6 w itness test and everything else and it has been 7 c oncluded that -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: Right. That's the way it's 9 w ritten now. 10 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. I thought you -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: We have actually named it 12 f ailure determination. No. I'm saying that to stop 13 t he clock at the end of that 24 months, -- 14 MR. BAUMAN: Right. 15 MS. BARHYDT: -- I wouldn't want us to -- 16 l et's say we pick a unit on month 20 and it takes a 17 w hile to get it into the lab and we do testing and then 18 i t takes time to get it back into the lab for the 19 r etest. But that unit was selected well within the 24- 20 m onth period, but it takes 5 months to actually get to 21 a failure determination -- 22 MR. BAUMAN: Didn't we --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 44 1 MS. BARHYDT: -- because that rating was made 2 w ithin that 24 months. 3 MR. BAUMAN: Sure. Well, I'm trying to 4 r emember back a little bit. I'm trying to remember 5 w hat schedule we put or we got. When she notifies the 6 t esting to be done, I think we have some schedule in 7 t here. And you can't definitely delay it, any test, 8 f or 18 months or something like that to extend it 9 e xcessively. It kind of gets down to what the 10 p rocedure is going to be for when we are notified that 11 t hat test -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: Still, there is quite a bit of 13

- - 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I think it was 180 days 15 t o provide a manufacturer lead time. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 17 MR. BAUMAN: Right. But in that case, you 18 k now, I don't think, too, you get a failure -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: That's got a two-month period. 20 I mean -- 21 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. I think I guess it's going 22 t o depend on what the workload becomes and your budgets

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 45 1 a nd all of that, but when you get a first test, I think 2 a person is going to move up to -- you're not going to 3 i nitially wait 20 months for that next one. But maybe 4 t hen we're talking about the 24-month period. Should 5 i t be 30 months? Should it be so you can feel 6 c omfortable and we feel comfortable, something in 7 t here? But it seems like to go from start to start, 8 y ou know, understanding it may not be comfortable in 9 t he end, but that would give us room to extend that out 10 w ithout it being that period of unknown. I think the 11 f ailure to failure or noncompliance to noncompliance is 12 a better way to do that, but if we can figure out a 13 s chedule that will make that work -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: So if we did failure to 15 f ailure, I think I would want it to be longer because 16 o f all of the extra time that is built into the process 17 i tself. 18 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. 19 MR. EISNER: Could you say failure to 20 f ailure, an appeal? If it's overturned, it doesn't 21 c ount? If it's not overturned, you go with the 22 o riginal initial test or would that mess up your

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 46 1 a bility to enforce the timing there? 2 MS. BARHYDT: Well, it's because it's not 3 r eally an appeal. It's that we're not going to make a 4 d etermination until they have gotten a retest. 5 MR. EISNER: I'm saying if it flunks on the 6 r etest, then it's the date of the original test. It 7 w ould have had two within two years, even if the retest 8 w as a half a year later. And that would result in 9 a ction being taken, but it would delay the action. I'm 10 n ot sure if that would mess up the purpose of the 11 p rogram. 12 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers. I am not sure 13 t hat's true, what you just said, because it is not a 14 f ailure until after the second -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I think that that is 16 s omething that in granting the retest, we are making a 17 s tatement that this test is basically being thrown out. 18 A nd so to base a data timeline on that doesn't seem 19 f air to the manufacturers. 20 MR. EISNER: Well, but then you could modify 21 y our language to say failure to failure. If there is a 22 r etest and it's another failure, it counts as falling

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 47 1 w ithin the time frame. Does that solve the problem? 2 They tested. They failed twice. So they 3 s hould be penalized because the failures would have 4 b een within the two years if it was conducted the same 5 d ay. 6 MS. BARHYDT: So I know what you are saying. 7 I think that what the Department has said in these 8 m eetings, though, is that that first test is -- I think 9 i t makes me uncomfortable based on what we have told 10 e veryone here, to call that a failure, because we have 11 s aid that test is -- 12 MR. EISNER: And I'm not suggesting you call 13 i t a failure. I'm saying that for the purpose of this 14 p rovision -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: The completion of the first 16 t est. 17 MR. EISNER: The completion is that it's the 18 d ate for the completion of the retest would count as if 19 i t happened on the day of the initial test. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Test. 21 MR. SACHS: Laura? 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 48 1 MR. SACHS: I'm having a great deal of 2 t rouble, and I'm sitting in a room full of geeks. And 3 t his is a process flow. And it would seem that a 4 s ubcommittee would be developing a process flow diagram 5 w ith timelines on it and bring it back to us so we 6 c ould visualize all of the trinkets and all of the 7 e lements. I am not feeling we are reaching convergence 8 t his way -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 10 MR. SACHS: -- meaning I am confused. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 12 MR. SACHS: So I am making a suggestion that 13 t his may be something that a representative or two of 14 D OE, two of the manufacturer, may want to just really 15 p ut all of these constraints down on a piece of paper 16 a nd then think about what the process flow looks like 17 w ith a can't -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 19 MR. SACHS: -- or a logical tree or anything 20 e lse. 21 MS. BARHYDT: The one issue with that is that 22 t his is on the list of stuff that needs to go to the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 49 1 A SRAC. 2 MR. SACHS: So we can spend a lifetime today 3

- - 4 MS. BARHYDT: Right. I understand that, too. 5 MR. SACHS: -- and still feel a lot of 6 n ebulosity, or we can ask a group of people to do it 7 a nd then we have a conference call perhaps, send out 8 t he piece of paper. I'm not going to push this any 9 f urther. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Right. Okay. 11 MR. SACHS: I am confused. 12 MS. BARHYDT: So I guess what do other people 13 t hink about it? My hope was that before everyone 14 l eaves this go-around, we could vote on something. 15 MR. SACHS: I will be uncomfortable voting 16 u ntil I can see -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: See something. Okay. 18 MR. SACHS: -- what that graphic presentation 19 l ooks like. Now, perhaps we could just do that graphic 20 p resentation as a group as a whole. I am just -- there 21 a re too many things floating around -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: Maybe we can put something

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 50 1 t ogether this evening and look at it tomorrow. 2 MR. SACHS: I would think that would be 3 w onderful. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Yes? 5 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. As probably 6 t he most vulnerable character in this room because our 7 p roduct is quite often stocked and quickly tested, 8 s elf- contained, so it's quick to set up, quick to 9 b reak down, I am very comfortable with this information 10 h ere because I looked at this realistically. And the 11 D OE has limited resources. 12 Let's be honest. You're never going to hit 13 s ome of these numbers, especially in the expensive 14 p roducts. If you spend $100,000 on an HVAC system, 15 y ou're not going to want to test 2 or 3 of these in the 16 n ext 6 months. If I just go through the numbers of how 17 m any different products we have in this room, we're 18 l ooking at thousands of possible tests. You've got 19 1 ,200 from us. So the chances of rehitting all of our 20 f ailures is so slim, it's ridiculous. 21 MR. AMRANE: Did you have something else in 22 m ind with respect to the voluntary program or -- I

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 51 1 d on't know. 2 MS. BARHYDT: That's on the agenda. 3 MR. AMRANE: I know it's on the agenda. It's 4 l ater on the agenda. 5 MR. SACHS: I'm surprised you would remind us 6 o f that. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think we have got to -- 8 w hat Charlie just said was the fact -- you know, what 9 o ur budget is, what Charlie just said. And the other 10 t hing that hasn't been mentioned today, I thought the 11 m ajor concern you guys had last time was that there 12 w ould be some fly-by-night companies who are 13 c ontinually updating their AEDMs and kind of slipping 14 t hrough the cracks. So just keep those three things in 15 m ind when you come up with this. I think we're kind of 16 g etting sidetracked and sideways because the fact is, 17 l ike you said, there are millions of these things out 18 t here. 19 Testing, the lab capacity has test 20 c onstraints, our budget constraints. And our portfolio 21 i s 70 covered products now. So we're not just focusing 22 o ur efforts on the commercial products that are

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 52 1 r epresented in this room. You are a very small part of 2 a much bigger program that we test. So please keep 3 t hat in mind when you really -- you might be drilling 4 d own a little further into the weeds than we need to. 5 MR. EISNER: Let's see where we are. We're 6 t alking about a whole bunch of alternatives or we could 7 m aybe try to narrow them down, especially in light of 8 t he last thing that Laura suggested about a slightly 9 l onger period or do we want to have somebody meet 10 t ogether, a couple of people meet, with DOE tonight and 11 t ry to work out a chart that we could look at tomorrow 12 m orning? 13 MS. BARHYDT: I'll work late if anyone wants 14 t o stay. 15 MR. EISNER: I think we need to get all the 16 p ossible suggestions on the chart for people to 17 c onsider tomorrow morning or it won't be resolved 18 t omorrow. I think that's what DOE's -- Charlie? 19 MR. HON: Can I ask DOE what their projected 20 b udget is on these projects? 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, you know, honestly we 22 d on't know if we're going to get to 2014 yet, but I can

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 53 1 s ay, with all honesty, that the number is going to be 2 r oughly the same, if not just a little bit more focused 3 i n this area. So with that kind of money -- 4 MR. HON: What is it today? 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: For this program, it's 4 and 6 a half million -- 7 MR. EISNER: Mike? 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- for all 70 covered 9 p roducts. 10 MR. EISNER: Mike? 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: So that includes buying the 12 s tuff, testing the stuff, contractor support, doing, 13 y ou know, lots of work. So think about how much your 14 s tuff costs. You can do the math. 15 MR. EISNER: Mike, did you have something you 16 w anted to add? 17 MR. RIVETS: Just in coming up with the 18 p rocess document, it might be useful to define what it 19 m eans by the same AEDM because as it's revised 20 c onstantly, you could make the argument that it's never 21 t he same. So if it means the AEDM for which that 22 p roduct is included including revision or something,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 54 1 j ust -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: To address. That's the 3 d iscussion we had earlier, come up with wording. 4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Those two alternatives, 5 h ow many people would like to see this go to a special 6 g roup to meet tonight and have something to put on the 7 s creen tomorrow? 8 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 9 T wo additional questions. What impact is it going to 10 b e if a company is a member of the voluntary program 11 a nd is also being tested? 12 MS. BARHYDT: So our expectation is that 13 t hose sorts of issues will be dealt with in the VICP. 14 T his is the pure DOE testing framework. 15 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. And the second part of 16 t hat is the 1 to 35 and greater than 35 confusion about 17 w hether that is the number that you actually test or 18 t he number of miles that are contained within an AEDM. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Tested. 20 MS. MEYERS: That's not what I meant. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 22 MR. STANONIK: It had always been tested.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 55 1 Y es. The heading of that table is always been tested. 2 MR. DOPPEL: That's not what Karen proposed. 3 MS. MEYERS: Yes. My proposal is it depends 4 o n how many possible model combinations or containment 5 i n an AEDM. That makes the relevance of how many 6 m odels are tested and whether that AEDM is good or not. 7 I go back to, you know, an AEDM for an HVAC product 8 c ould cover thousands of possible model combinations. 9 S o if you fail two, it's pretty insignificant. If it's 10 a commercial water heater AEDM, where there are maybe 11 2 0 models in that AEDM, and you fail 2, it's of much 12 b igger significance. So my point before was the 13 f ailures depend upon how many models are contained 14 w ithin that AEDM. 15 MS. BARHYDT: But if we are 2 for 2, we have 16 t ested 2 and 2 have failed, from our perspective, it is 17 i mmaterial whether the manufacturer chose to put 10 18 b asic models in there or 100 basic models in there. 19 MR. SHEBIK: It's not two fail -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: If we have tested two, and 21 w e're two for two, then -- 22 MR. SHEBIK: You don't care. Yes. You don't

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 56 1 c are what AEDM is. 2 MS. BARHYDT: No. Within the AEDM -- 3 MR. SHEBIK: I'm sorry. You don't care what 4 t he basic model group is or product class. You just 5 d on't. 6 MS. BARHYDT: It is what the manufacturer put 7 i n the AEDM. 8 MR. SHEBIK: Those models all fall under the 9 A EDM. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 11 MR. DOPPEL: So, then, the three-year period 12 d oesn't matter because what I'm hearing from you is as 13 s oon as two fail -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: Within a three-year period or 15 t wo- year period or whatever period you end up with. 16 S o the manufacturer has some -- there is a cutoff for 17 y ou. It's not like this is in perpetuity and you had 18 o ne fail ten years ago and we just had a second one 19 f ail and now you're on the hook. There is a cutoff. I 20 m ean, we're not going to hold it against you forever. 21 A nd so that's really what the two-year/three-year 22 w indows that start, windows that stop is getting at.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 57 1 H ow long is this hanging on your record? 2 MR. SHEBIK: Yes. So three years is too far. 3 MR. AMRANE: It's too? 4 MR. SHEBIK: Too long. 5 MR. AMRANE: Too long. 6 MR. SHEBIK: Three years is way too long. 7 Y es. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do I hear two years? Three 9 y ears? 10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 11 N ational. Are we talking about failure to failure? I 12 t hink that is where we got potentially stopped with you 13 b eing concerned about your time schedule. I think -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: Right. And so -- 15 MR. BAUMAN: -- the concept of a few years 16 w orks for the understanding that the potential for 17 b ackup -- I think if we do it any other way, other than 18 c onfirmed noncompliance, to confirm noncompliance, 19 w hich I know you and Ashley had -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 21 MR. BAUMAN: When we talk about it, let's 22 j ust assume it has been retested, it has been

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 58 1 w itnessed, whatever else, from a noncompliance -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 3 MR. BAUMAN: -- to a noncompliance. What's 4 t hat time period? What can be -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: And getting that down into two 6 m akes me nervous because we have a very long time built 7 i nto the process. And so, I mean, at that point, we 8 b asically are working on a six-month window. And 9 t hat's just not -- 10 MR. EISNER: Two and a half years would be 11 r easonable and acceptable. We've got to decide whether 12 t o continue with this discussion. 13 MR. AMRANE: What do we do now with the 14 c ertification program today as far as how do we trigger 15 t he certification program today? What is the timeline 16 t o trigger failures? When you fail within -- how long 17 a nd -- 18 MR. WHITWELL: Calendar year. 19 MR. AMRANE: Is it calendar year? 20 MS. MEYERS: And make your selection at the 21 b eginning of the year so you know. And you have to 22 t est a certain percentage of your basic models every

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 59 1 y ear and make those selections at the beginning of the 2 y ear. 3 MR. TRITSIS: Three years? 4 MS. MEYERS: We know when we have to have -- 5 MR. DOPPEL: So it's defined. 6 MS. MEYERS: It's very defined. 7 MR. DOPPEL: It's a very defined window. 8 T his is why it opened. 9 MR. KOJAK: There's a difference because with 10 A HRI, you guys test thousands of units. And the DOE is 11 o nly going to do a handful compared to AHRI. So the 12 t imeline has got to be different because the amount of 13 t esting going on at the AHRI contract lab is high 14 v olume compared to what they are going to be doing. So 15 t he timelines can't be as short because the DOE isn't 16 g oing to be contracting a full-time third party lab to 17 j ust do nothing but test commercial products. It's 18 g oing to be, you know, here, there. You know, it's 19 g oing to be very sporadic. So you can't say it's got 20 t o be within a calendar year because they might not 21 e ven test a whole lot of units in one year. You know, 22 I think it's just not apples to look at an AHRI program

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 60 1 t o what the DOE is trying to do. 2 MR. WHITWELL: And that is one of the 3 c oncerning points, I think. I mean, I don't know how 4 t o solve this, but, you know, one year it could be they 5 h ave a budget for, let's see, 10 units, the next year 6 t hey've got a budget for 1,000. And I'm exaggerating, 7 b ut -- so you just never know, you know, from one year 8 t o the next what might happen. 9 MR. EISNER: Could the trigger be the number 10 o f tests that DOE does in a year? Could there be a 11 t rigger based on the number of tests that DOE does in a 12 y ear so that if they do double or triple their budget, 13 t he numbers would change? 14 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. Well, I think 15 w e have that in the chart that is up here. If the 16 b udget is higher and you would be able to test more 17 t han 30-some models -- 18 MR. EISNER: But there is still some concern. 19 MR. BALLO: That is not the concern. 20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I 21 r eally think this is much "to do" about not a whole 22 l ot. If you look at this rationally, DOE is not going

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 61 1 t o be testing 35 of your models. I don't care if they 2 h ave 10,000 in your AEDM. They're not going to be 3 t esting 35 of your models. So, really and truly, the 4 f irst column is the only one you need. They have 5 a greed to something. They need to discuss something 6 f or a second column for those that can't get 7 c omfortable with that. 8 And I was initially proposing the failure to 9 f ailure, but in hearing the discussion on this, 10 r emember, we've got 18 months for those of us who make 11 h ighly customized equipment. And that's not defined. 12 S o anyone could take 18 months to deliver a replacement 13 p roduct. You do that, and then you have a witness to 14 r etest. In 36 months, you're already outside the 24. 15 S o I think if there's a question -- I'm comfortable 16 w ith what is up here right now: the 24 rolling months 17 f rom defined failure by DOE to their call for another 18 t est unit, a checkup on you of 24 months rolling 19 b etween those 2 points in time. 20 If we were going to go to failure to failure, 21 I would hate to have this kind of exposure, but 22 t hinking about the 36 months, you would need at least

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 62 1 4 8 months of a window to keep a manufacturer from being 2 a ble to within the rules just never have to within that 3 w indow. So it seems to me at something like 24 from 4 t he defined failure to the call for the next unit to be 5 t ested or 48 months, if it's going to be failure to 6 f ailure. 7 MS. JAKOBS: I was just wondering. I don't 8 t hink that -- well, the AHRI program, they make 9 s elections every year. I don't think you're talking 10 a bout that, that you're fixed. So, just like you were 11 s aying, Frank, that you could have a failure. DOE 12 c ould select another unit immediately. So it's not a 13 m atter of there being this kind of random selection, 14 l ike AHRI does. It could be more targeted. 15 MS. MEYERS: It would be. 16 MS. JAKOBS: So AHRI could compress the 17 t imeline for a specific manufacturer, even a specific 18 m odel. 19 MS. BARHYDT: The provisions that we had 20 w orked out before does give the manufacturer -- is it 21 1 8 months? -- to actually deliver that second unit. So 22 l et's say that we had a failure and a retest --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 63 1 MULTIPLE SPEAKERS: A hundred and eighty 2 d ays. 3 MS. JAKOBS: Hundred eighty days. Okay. I 4 w as going to say, a hundred and eighty days to deliver 5 t hat second unit. So after we finally reach a 6 d etermination that it didn't meet its rating, we've got 7 a six-month lag before we even necessarily see a unit. 8 T hen we have the test lab. How fast does it get 9 t ested? Then there's a potential for a retest. How 10 f ast does that occur? I mean, we're really hitting 11 t hat -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: But you are not limited to 13 t hat, to the final determination. You could order 14 a nother one after the first test if you wanted. You 15 c an do whatever you want. 16 MS. JAKOBS: We could do that. I don't know 17 t hat there is a lot of sense in doing that until we 18 k now that there is really an issue. 19 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. So 20 y our selection process, is it completely random or -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: It is not completely random. 22 MR. SHEBIK: It is not random. Okay. Okay.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 64 1 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Isn't this 2 o bjective to define the really bad players? 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 4 MR. HON: That's the purpose here. And if 5 y ou're receiving a whole lot of complaints about a 6 p articular supplier and then you bring in a unit, it 7 f ails miserably, and you bring in another unit, you're 8 g oing to be finding the bad players. You're not going 9 t o be finding guys who passed the first test. You're 10 n ot going to be finding the guys who are not receiving 11 a lot of complaints. Your objective is to find the bad 12 p layer. And the way you find the bad player is 13 i nformation outside of your test programs. So these 14 n umbers, you can hide in these numbers for a long time, 15 e ven if you are a bad player. 16 MS. BARHYDT: That's my biggest concern is 17 t hat I don't want to build a framework that makes it 18 i mpossible for the Department to deal with bad players. 19 I am very sympathetic and do not want to create a 20 f ramework that you are uncomfortable with, that you 21 b elieve leaves you vulnerable where you are doing 22 e verything possible to make compliant products. But at

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 65 1 t he end of the day, we want to have a framework that 2 w ill work for us to enforce against people who are not 3 m eeting the regulatory requirements. And so for us, 4 i t's a trade-off. I want to give you that level of 5 c omfort that you have within your power the flexibility 6 a nd the ability to take actions to protect your company 7 w hile at the same time making sure that we have a 8 p rogram that is effective at actually enforcing the 9 r egulations. 10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers at PVI again. 11 I would suspect that if DOE were looking at 12 m anufacturers that were currently in a VICP knowing 13 t hat the number of units that were selected, the 14 c hances would be much lower, not zero, but much lower, 15 t hat those would be the ones that would be selected, it 16 w ould be the ones that are -- 17 MR. HURST: Outside. 18 MR. MYERS: -- outside of that or if they're 19 b ad players within it, that they feel the program isn't 20 c atching, pretty much everybody is going to know who 21 t hat is. So it's not the players that are doing the 22 r ight thing and that are in the program. I'm not

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 66 1 s peaking for you, but just it would make sense that DOE 2 w ould not be selecting a lot of models that are 3 c urrently in the VICP program to do their check. They 4 w ould be looking for manufacturers outside of it or the 5 o utliers in terms of their claims within the program, I 6 s uspect. 7 MR. AMRANE: Right. But there is nothing in 8 w riting that says that, though. 9 MR. MYERS: That is correct. 10 MS. BARHYDT: No, but there is a pragmatic, 11 e ffective use of resources. 12 MR. AMRANE: Right, right. We understand 13 t hat. 14 MR. EISNER: Could you put something in 15 w riting? Could you ask them to put something in writing 16 t hat would speak to that? 17 MS. BARHYDT: So I think that that is 18 s omething that we are willing to discuss when we get to 19 t he VICP discussion. 20 MR. EISNER: What is holding up agreement 21 h ere? What are people still troubled by? 22 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. I can only respond

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 67 1 i n terms of what is troubling is a specific issue that 2 a rose several years ago with residential products, in 3 w hich the voluntary program seemed to have trouble 4 d ealing with it until beat over the head or stimulated 5 b y DOE. This was the question of simulation-based 6 r atings for third party mix and match, evaporator coils 7 f or residential equipment. And I have said at least as 8 m uch as I know about that, which was there was -- maybe 9 g oing beyond what I think I know, that there was a bad 10 a ctor and that, for various reasons, perhaps including 11 a ntitrust, the voluntary program was very slow to be 12 a ble to take action on a known bad actor. 13 So I think this is what we're -- Charlie has 14 b een alluding to also, not that specific one, but how 15 d o we get some assurance that we can effectively find 16 a nd fix problems with bad actors with DOE as an 17 e ffective backup to the voluntary programs? Is that 18 r eally what the issue is? 19 MS. JAKOBS: I think there is a second issue, 20 t hat it is protection from being wrongly accused, too. 21 E veryone wants to get rid of the bad actors, but you 22 w ant to have some recourse if you are accused and not

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 68 1 g uilty. 2 MR. SACHS: Absolutely. Much appreciated. 3 MR. EISNER: Is there something that could be 4 a dded that would allay your concerns? 5 MR. SACHS: Well, the geek side of me says 6 w hat I want is a real good wide bandwidth channel from 7 m anufacturers in the VICPs back to DOE saying, "Test 8 t his guy." I haven't heard much about that direction 9 o f the information pipe. 10 MR. MYERS: Hopefully, "Test this guy. 11 H ere's the data." 12 MR. SACHS: Yes. Thank you, Frank. 13 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 14 W ell, AHRI notifies DOE when there's a failure; right? 15 MR. AMRANE: We do, yes. We have a challenge 16 t est, too, in our program. So you can challenge. 17 MR. SACHS: Okay. So it may be that I just 18 n eed to know more. 19 MR. AMRANE: Maybe you do because I think if 20 y ou're thinking about the core issue, I think it is a 21 v ery special issue here. I mean, the core only 22 m anufactures -- this is a very specific issue that does

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 69 1 n ot apply to what we're talking about here anyway, but 2

- - 3 MR. SACHS: You may be right, Karim, but in 4 m y mind, the juxtaposition of the fact that this was a 5 s imulation-based rating program and one where we had a 6 p ersistent problem that really affected some of the 7 u tility rebate structures that those guys' families 8 w eren't getting the savings that they were paying for. 9 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 10 MR. SACHS: So that's the model that sticks 11 i n my mind. 12 MR. AMRANE: Yes. I think, however, you need 13 t o know a little more about the program itself because 14 t here are quite a few details that you do not present 15 h ere regarding that program where, in fact, the 16 r atings, the simulated ratings, that you were talking 17 a bout, these are based on our chart, DOE-approved 18 s oftware models. And the fact, though, of the model is 19 t hat, you know, the industry itself took action to 20 c reate the validations and simulations before ratings 21 a re even uploaded, even a cap, without any DOE 22 p ressure. So the industry itself took action to take

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 70 1 c are of that perceived problem. 2 MR. SACHS: I do look forward to learning 3 m ore -- 4 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 5 MR. SACHS: -- about it to allay my -- 6 MR. AMRANE: We can show you that currently 7 f or that particular program, there is an outreach 8 s oftware that is used before even each and every rating 9 i s uploaded into the -- 10 MALE SPEAKER: There is a steep price 11 i nvolved. 12 MR. AMRANE: That is correct. And there are 13 o ther validations, too. So yes. A lot happens. It 14 s hould be rather quickly and without any pressure from 15 D OE or anybody else. 16 MR. EISNER: I suggest we take a ten-minute 17 b reak. And people should talk amongst each other or 18 t alk to me if you can't find somebody else to talk to 19 a bout what language could be added that would lessen 20 t he concern about some of these. They are vague 21 b ecause everybody thinks they are a good actor in this 22 r oom. And, therefore, they are not going to have the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 71 1 t wo failures. So what can be put in there to lessen 2 t hose concerns? All right. Ten minutes. 11:30. 3 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Who's come up with the 5 l anguage and wants to volunteer to go first? 6 MR. AMRANE: I think that for AHRI, maybe we 7 c an go with those numbers, but contingent upon 8 r evisiting them when we are done with the basic model 9 d efinition and when we are done with the VICP 10 d iscussion because to me, for us, it's really linked 11 t ogether. 12 MS. BARHYDT: So that means we are not 13 s ending AEDMs to the ASRAC and the ASRAC is not going 14 t o be able to move forward. 15 MR. DOPPEL: Why does this have to be 16 a ssociated with that? 17 MS. BARHYDT: Because this is all about the 18 A EDMs. This is the last part of AEDMs. This isn't 19 a bout enforcing compliance with standards. This is 20 a bout do you have a valid AEDM. And to come up with a 21 w hole framework for AEDMs that has no end game of do 22 y ou have a valid AEDM just doesn't make any sense.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 72 1 MS. JAKOBS: Well, I mean, one of the things 2 i s what does saying A-E-D-M mean. 3 MS. BARHYDT: So we talked about that some. 4 A nd I agree that the wording needs to be flushed out. 5 B ut basically, it is a model that is used to rate a 6 p roduct. And then you can make tweaks to it, but it is 7 s till effectively essentially the same model that is 8 b eing used to rate a group of models. 9 MS. JAKOBS: Well, Harvey talked about a 10 m odel. So is that an AEDM? And all the time that it 11 h as ever been modified, that's still the same AEDM? 12 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know a lot about it, 13 b ut my gut reaction is yes. 14 MS. JAKOBS: Okay. That's what I thought you 15 w ere saying. So it's kind of like if you used the same 16 a ssumptions, the same -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: Except for that's on the 18 r esidential side; right? 19 MS. JAKOBS: Yes. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 21 MR. AMRANE: All of those could be used for 22 t he small commercial ones.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 73 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 2 MS. JAKOBS: So, then, if you fail, then you 3 w ant to fix it. So there's no way to fix it and still 4 m ake it a new AEDM. I have done modeling for probably 5 4 0 years. It's not so cut and dry. You know, there 6 a re a lot of nuances and just for anything. And in the 7 m ind of the person who is actually doing the modeling, 8 w ho is writing the code, it is different from -- I 9 m ean, it is completely different, where if you would 10 e xplain it to your aunt what you did, she would think 11 i t was the same old thing. You know, there's this 12 w hole thing about what is the same and what is 13 d ifferent. And when it comes to actual models passing 14 o r failing, it's going to be a nuance. It's not going 15 t o be we missed the boat completely or, you know, we're 16 o n continent. We're off a bit. 17 You know, so that would be -- if you go 18 t hrough the whole process and the eight when you go 19 o ver eight and then you have to do two more basic 20 m odels, it's going to be, you know, kind of a flight 21 c hange probably. You're not going to find a whole new 22 w ay to model a boiler or the combustion process. It

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 74 1 c ould be to the revision, rather than something new. 2 S o the problem is this thing about -- you know, so when 3 y ou have your first AEDM, is that a forever or when you 4 r ate it, maybe you have to say what AEDM version it is 5 a nd then the new version, it's a new one? You know, 6 m aybe there's some documentation that describes what 7 t he same is and what is different. 8 MS. BARHYDT: So the way you are describing 9 i t is -- I would respond to that by saying, "same AEDM" 10 i s not the right word for the concept that we are going 11 f or. We're going for -- I have these ten models and I 12 u sed this piece of code to come up with ratings for 13 t hese ten models. And I'm going to call that model 14 " Alligator." I may tweak that piece of code 15 " Alligator" and tweak it and tweak it and tweak it over 16 t he next 20 years. But that model, effectively that 17 f undamental chunk of code that is getting tweaked, it's 18 n ot identical, but it's still -- all of my ratings for 19 t hese ten models are coming out of Alligator. 20 And what we want to say is that for those ten 21 m odels, whatever that chunk of code is that you are 22 u sing to rate those ten models, that if we test two

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 75 1 m odels and then we test four models and then we test 2 s ix models, out of those ten, that those all came from 3 A lligator. And that's what we're looking for. 4 Our expectation is that hopefully after the 5 f irst two failures, you will tweak it. But then when 6 w e test two more and it is still coming out of 7 A lligator, that is additive, even though you have made 8 t weaks to it. 9 MS. MEYERS: But that's not how we do it. 10 T hat's your concept, but that's just not -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 12 MS. MEYERS: -- how we do it. That's the 13 p roblem. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 15 MR. DOPPEL: So that basically says the AEDM 16 n ever dies. 17 MR. RIVEST: It dies after -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: That's why we have the time 19 p eriod in there. 20 MALE SPEAKER: Karen, how do you do -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Am I right? The basic code 22 b ehind it likely would not change after the two years

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 76 1 b ecause the basic code is basic thermodynamics? Basic 2 t hermodynamics haven't changed since Newton -- thank 3 y ou -- probably back to way before I was in school. So 4 t hen the AEDMs are never changing. 5 MS. JAKOBS: So when you get to the sale of 6 e ight of them, then it says you have a new AEDM or you 7 h ave validation out of our your old AEDM or new models 8 o r -- 9 MR. STANONIK: What are you doing with the 10 A EDMs? You're predicting ratings of models you haven't 11 t ested; right? 12 MS. JAKOBS: Right. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Using rules of thermodynamics 14 a nd -- 15 MR. STANONIK: So I am going to step out on a 16 l imb and say as far as the part of the AEDM that 17 a ddresses the basic thermodynamics, I think I am going 18 t o get that right. Okay? To me, I think what I am 19 h earing is the nuances come in when you start adding 20 t he bells and whistles. 21 MS. MEYERS: They are checking the 22 e fficiency.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 77 1 MR. STANONIK: What's that? 2 MS. MEYERS: They are checking the 3 e fficiency. 4 MR. STANONIK: Yes. Right. 5 MS. JAKOBS: One of the parts might be for a 6 s pecific motor or compressor. There's a polynomial 7 t hat describes the performance over a map of 8 c onditions. 9 MR. STANONIK: Right. 10 MS. JAKOBS: So you might find when you fail, 11 t hat your assumption in that one aspect of it was 12 w rong. And it could affect a whole bunch of models that 13 h ave that actual component. 14 MR. STANONIK: Right. 15 MS. JAKOBS: But you really haven't changed 16 h ow you are modeling the physics. 17 MR. STANONIK: Yes, yes. That's what I just 18 s aid. It's the bells and the whistles; right? The 19 t hermodynamics held; right? 20 MS. JAKOBS: Right. 21 MR. STANONIK: But the bells and the whistles 22

- - and that is the tough part, admittedly. That is the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 78 1 t ough part. But, Diane, in your example, I mean, 2 w hether you intended or not, you said that you 3 d iscovered that the motor or whatever actually caused 4 y ou to rerate products. I would say -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: It might. It might not. It 6 m ight, and it might not. 7 MR. STANONIK: In her example, she said that 8 i t did. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 10 MR. STANONIK: So I would say in that case, 11 y ou have a new AEDM, at least for those models that had 12 t hat motor. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: And you changed the motor 14 v endor. And now you have a new equation that has to go 15 i n there. 16 MR. SACHS: That's not a new model, Frank. 17 T hat is a new set of inputs. 18 MR. STANONIK: You're right. I take it back. 19 MR. RIVEST: Something you said earlier 20 t oday, you said this could be more about your ability 21 t o model using an AEDM. 22 MS. JAKOBS: Right. A long time ago I said

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 79 1 t hat, yes. 2 MR. RIVEST: In the very beginning. 3 MS. JAKOBS: Yes. 4 MR. RIVEST: And maybe that's where we need 5 t o go back. This process sets up a 24 time clock 6 d uring which you can do whatever you want to improve 7 y our model as you get information coming back about the 8 t est data. And after a failure, you know, someone 9 s tands up and says, "You really can't -- we can't do 10 t his right. And so we need to go to individual tests." 11 A nd the clock "resets" after that two-year period. 12 MS. JAKOBS: So, rather than -- 13 MR. RIVEST: And you could just be certifying 14 t he exact same AEDM, but don't expect different 15 r esults. 16 MS. JAKOBS: Rather than tie it to a specific 17 A EDM, -- 18 MR. RIVEST: Well, if -- 19 MS. JAKOBS: -- it seems like you are talking 20 a bout a manufacturer's ability to rate to an AEDM. 21 MR. RIVEST: Right. But we were trying to 22 l imit the risk to the manufacturer. And, therefore, I

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 80 1 t hink you would have to declare at some point in the 2 b eginning of 24 months, these models are together and 3 w e have 2 tests that validate our AEDMs for these 4 t ogether. And they are in the same pool. And they are 5 f or two years. 6 MS. MEYERS: So that means we can't change 7 s uppliers or anything for two years. 8 MR. RIVEST: No. I don't think that that has 9 t o do with anything. 10 MS. MEYERS: Well, it could change your 11 r atings. 12 MR. RIVEST: I understand what that's -- 13 MS. BARHYDT: Change your ratings? 14 MR. STANONIK: But your AEDM should be able 15 t o handle that or you have two AEDMs: one for supplier 16 A and one for -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: But with my -- 18 MR. RIVEST: Those are inputs to your AEDM. 19 MR. STANONIK: You're right. 20 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. This is Jeff with 21 N ational. As you mentioned earlier, that would be a 22 m odification to a value entered in your AEDM. It

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 81 1 d oesn't change the AEDM itself. I mean, you could 2 r ewrite a product without having to create a new AEDM 3 f or it because you're still using the same task that 4 y ou did for that model into tasks that you did for that 5 A EDM. But you would be rating that. 6 MR. RIVEST: Because it's not impossible to 7 g et into the nuance of it's in a modification or a new 8 A EDM and since we have a 24-month -- 9 MS. JAKOBS: I really think that it's 10 i mpossible. This thing about the two basic models to 11 t est them, yes, basic models to test the computer 12 m odel, you really can't do that. It's going to be the 13 a ctual testing. And I don't think DOE has a budget to 14 d o a good job of testing these models. You will have 15 t o depend on the VICP programs to have such a broad, 16 r andom selection, cover all the products within a 17 s pecific time period that -- to really, honestly check 18 m odels, which, you know, writing a model, probably the 19 b igger part of it is always testing your code and 20 s eeing how well it works. 21 MR. RIVEST: That's all true, but, you know, 22 t o the extent that these are tests that are conducted

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 82 1 b y a VICP or that are conducted by DOE for non2 p articipants in VICP, you need, more or less, the same 3 s et of rules. And one way of not getting into this 4 b oat is to do random samples of basic models and see 5 h ow the ratings come. And if it turns out that those 6 r atings or grouping of models was done by one AEDM, you 7 d eclare the AEDM invalid, whatever it is. But it would 8 b e limited to those products that have been grouped 9 t ogether for purposes of the AEDM. And we determined 10 a t the last meeting that, sure, two tests are not 11 e nough for you to have confidence in your AEDM models, 12 b ut it is at least a level of verification that a level 13 w ill be post every -- 14 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 15 C ould you define specifically what you mean by the 24 16 r olling months. 17 MR. RIVEST: Well, the way I understood this, 18 I mean, what I am hearing here, what I am saying, is 19 t hat for 24 months, products may be tested that you are 20 m anufacturing. And if you reach, say, eight being the 21 r eal killer where you have to certify everything by 22 t esting two of each, that at that point it would be

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 83 1 d eclared because you failed eight times -- whatever 2 A EDM you have, it is not valid. And that grouping of 3 p roducts that you declared as a part of that AEDM to 4 b egin with, 24-month period, would be invalidated. And 5 y ou would need to come up with new ratings based on 6 t est data. That is how I am trying to come up with a 7 w orkable interpretation of it. Otherwise if we say 8 t weaking the AEDM as you go along and it's a different 9 A EDM; therefore, you are constantly resetting to zero. 10 A nd that wouldn't be forcible. And it would be very 11 h ard to police whether this was an improved AEDM, a new 12 A EDM, you know. 13 MR. DOPPEL: So I am reading that as the last 14 2 4 months always hanging on you. 15 MR. RIVEST: I see. You're seeing it as a 16 r olling rated moving hat. 17 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, moving -- 18 MR. RIVEST: Well, maybe that's where we have 19 t o go to the AHRI-type fixed two years to give it a net 20 s o that there is a reset. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we test one on Month 22 1 , we test one on Month 6, one on Month 12, one on

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 84 1 M onth 18, one on Month 24. We hit Month 30, and that 2 o ne's gone, and we only have the intervening -- 3 MR. DOPPEL: Still five. 4 MS. BARHYDT: -- five. 5 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 6 MS. BARHYDT: We go one more month, and 7 a nother one drops off, so 8 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. 9 I t's the last 10 MS. BARHYDT: And so if we tested 3 in a 11 s hort period of time, and then 24 months goes by, 3 may 12 d rop off all at once, and then you've gone from 6 to 2, 13 t hey would actually count against you, so to speak, or 14 z ero, depending on the timing. You may be completely 15 f ree and clear. 16 But, I mean, that's assuming that we've 17 a ctually tested and you have had that many models not 18 r ated properly. I mean, I guess my expectation is that 19 t he vast majority of stuff that we test is going to be 20 r ated properly. The idea that we're going to test and 21 t est and test and everything we test is going to not 22 m eet its rating is -- I hope that's not the case.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 85 1 MR. DOPPEL: We're just trying to figure out 2 t he worst-case scenario. 3 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. I think 4 w hat we've laid out here is the possibility that for 5 b uilt-to- order and custom components or custom 6 e quipment, that it's very improbable that you'll get 7 s ignificantly down this list to the two, the four, the 8 s ix, the eight. 9 However, for the smallest commercial products 10 a vailable, they're still subject to the same variation 11 f or blowers or different parameters. It is entirely 12 p ossible that we'll have a shipment of goods that will 13 b e distributed throughout the country that, in random 14 s elections, if you go to any random warehouse and pick 15 s ome, you have a probability of selecting one of 16 C ompany X's components with Company Y's blowers. 17 So there's a higher probability of the 18 s maller commercial equipment going farther down this 19 l ist and having more significant impacts. Did I 20 e xplain that -- 21 MS. JAKOBS: So from that aspect, maybe it 22 h as to be unrelated. Well, I don't know how you would

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 86 1 k now. You'd have to do analysis to figure out that you 2 d idn't pull two samples and they bailed for the same 3 r eason, because they were from the same batch. 4 MR. STEPHENS: Right. 5 MR. SACHS: I'm very naive. 6 MS. JAKOBS: I don't think so. 7 MR. SACHS: Just an old country boy. But 8 t here's some things that I feel are really within the 9 m anufacturer's control. And in an era of Six Sigma in 10 m ost other industries, I'm hearing that we really don't 11 h ave the ability to control the quality of our vendors. 12 W e're getting a wide variety of motors within 13 m anufacturer and certainly between the vendors of your 14 m otors. And, darn it, to me, it seems that this is 15 w hat your safety margin is for. This is what your one16 s ided distribution is for. And I don't see this as 17 n ecessarily being my concern. 18 MS. JAKOBS: Though one-sided wouldn't come 19 i nto effect if you didn't pass. It would be in that -- 20 i t would be a safety factor in the AEDM. 21 MR. SACHS: But -- 22 MS. JAKOBS: But --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 87 1 MR. SACHS: Diane, I'm just trying to push 2 t his particular responsibility that it seems to me 3 y 'all own off DOE, that you have to make -- and I'm 4 b eing a little bit hyperbolic. But it's part of the 5 p rocess of setting up your safety factors to account 6 f or the fact that you might be getting third-party 7 M otor X instead of Y, because Y's running short this 8 w eek. And that's your responsibility. It's not mine 9 a s the purchaser. It's not mine as DOE. Now, Phillip 10 i s going to tell me why I'm wrong. 11 MR. STEPHENS: Just adding some colorful 12 c ommentary. It's an interesting study in the order of 13 m agnitude for the businesses that are represented in 14 t his room. A significant portion of the businesses 15 r epresented in this room, our suppliers are actually 16 l arger than the manufacturers. 17 There are other manufacturers that are 18 s ignificantly larger than the suppliers, than their 19 s uppliers. So a lot of times, there is only one source 20 f or a lot of components that we use, and they have 21 i ssues. They have issues, and they don't always tell 22 u s. We do a good job of finding them, weeding them,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 88 1 o ut, and making sure there's no significant impact, but 2 t here's still that dichotomy. 3 MR. SACHS: Excellent point, and I appreciate 4 t hat, but there's -- even things that are commodities, 5 l ike bolts come in different quality grades, strength 6 g rades. It seems to me that having qualified the 7 s imulation program, those varying inputs for whose 8 m otor you happen to be using that day, because what was 9 a vailable, and I'm sure fans were far worse than motors 10 i n terms -- small motors in terms of their variability; 11 t hat that's part of the manufacturer's responsibility, 12 t o ensure the quality we'll give the purchaser of the 13 p roduct that meets that one number, which is all that 14 D OE can require, when we know, all of us, that that may 15 n ot be the best possible predictor of performance in 16 s ome particular application. I mean, we're doing some 17 k abuki here about how to get assurance on one number 18 f or each product. End of rant. Diane -- 19 MS. JAKOBS: I think part of the complication 20 i s that one number, because it dictates so many things 21 t hat -- I don't know. There's so many inputs into it, 22 a nd even -- I have more experience with the residential

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 89 1 e quipment, but on the commercial equipment, our lines, 2 t hey're not even making two of the same thing in a row, 3 a nd they're different people, and they move around, and 4 a third of them can call in sick any given day, and 5 t hey all -- everything is always different. 6 And we have all these checks and balances 7 w ith our quality, and one person checks what the person 8 b efore them did in the line, and we sample incoming 9 c omponents, and we have requirements for our vendors, 10 a nd there are all kinds of processes in place, and then 11 w e're going to run one test, get one number, and you 12 c an be in really big trouble if you fail. 13 MR. SACHS: Well, it's -- I'm missing two 14 t hings. Let me fess up that my wife did spend a good 15 p art of her career as a manufacturing process person. 16 M y son's in that field. 17 MS. JAKOBS: Uh-huh. 18 MR. SACHS: But I'm missing a couple of 19 t hings. First of all, Laura's been trying to tell me, 20 a nd maybe she's brainwashed me, that the consequences 21 o f failing that one test aren't all so traumatic in 22 t hat there's an awful lot of process downstream. We

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 90 1 r eally should never be getting very far into that 2 c hart. 3 MS. JAKOBS: Let me -- the first failure is 4 v ery traumatic. 5 MR. SACHS: Okay. Now, it's very traumatic 6 u p in the boardroom, or it's very traumatic -- 7 MS. JAKOBS: Yeah, it is. Oh, man. 8 MR. SACHS: So, but now you're forced to make 9 t he judgment of how big a safety factor to put in, 10 w hich costs money. 11 MS. JAKOBS: Right, and it makes you less 12 c ompetitive, the bigger your safety factor. 13 MR. SACHS: But everybody else has that same 14 t radeoff between trying to improve process quality and 15 r aise the safety factor. It's a business decision. 16 MS. JAKOBS: It is. It's a business 17 d ecision. 18 MR. SACHS: So it's a level playing field. 19 MS. JAKOBS: The thing -- part of the problem 20 i s too that we haven't defined all the terms, so we're 21 a ll -- 22 MR. SACHS: Well, yeah, we've got to iterate

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 91 1

- - 2 MS. JAKOBS: -- reading a lot into it. Yeah. 3 MR. SACHS: We've got to look back to some of 4 t hese things. 5 MS. JAKOBS: Well, I mean, I think, Laura, 6 y ou were saying we can't lose. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Well -- 8 MR. SACHS: Don't pay attention to her. 9 S he's a liar. 10 MS. BARHYDT: We've been living for several 11 w eeks, and we're -- this one issue with the AEDMs is 12 t he last thing before we can send AEDMs to the ASRAC 13 f or them to make a referral to the Department so that 14 w e can get some AEDMs, because what we heard from 15 e veryone at the very first meeting was that everybody 16 w ants certainty on AEDMs before we go forward -- 17 MS. JAKOBS: So could we put -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: -- and to get that rulemaking 19 d one. 20 MS. JAKOBS: Could we put Xs, and we'll fill 21 i n the numbers later, but agree on the format? 22 MR. AMRANE: She wants a number.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 92 1 MS. BARHYDT: But the problem is we can't 2 s end it to the ASRAC with blanks. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: And we can't propose -- 4 MS. JAKOBS: How come? 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- a rule with blanks. 6 MS. BARHYDT: And we can't propose a rule 7 w ith blanks. 8 MS. JAKOBS: You can't propose a rule with 9 b lanks. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, so we want to put a 11 N OPR out as soon as possible on this, so the way to do 12 t hat is to settle this now, get it to ASRAC to act on, 13 a nd then throw it in a NOPR, where then you can 14 p ublicly comment on it. Again -- 15 MS. JAKOBS: So we could do a safety factor 16 o n our numbers so we would have a level playing field. 17 I -- you know -- 18 MR. AMRANE: I guess the question -- 19 MS. JAKOBS: I don't know. It's like -- 20 MR. AMRANE: The question would be would it 21 b e -- assuming that we made those recommendation to 22 A SRAC and then you go out with a rule, would it be an

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 93 1 o ption, a possibility later on, if there is another 2 r ule in VICP, to readdress, eventually, some of those 3 n umbers, even if it's a separate rule, or -- I don't 4 k now. I mean, at least 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Can't you just comment on the 6 N OPR? 7 MR. AMRANE: We can comment on the NOPR too. 8 T hat's another option, but 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So this isn't the 10 e nd. 11 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is the beginning to get 13 t o the end that we really need to move on. 14 MR. AMRANE: Right. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: And if we keep kicking this 16 c an down the road, at some point you're going to hit 17 t he brick wall. That's, I think, not in anybody's best 18 i nterests. 19 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. So if 20 y ou're in a rolling 24 months, how are you going to 21 k now which column you're in, whether it's the -- I 22 m ean, I'm having difficulty understanding why there

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 94 1 s hould be two columns. 2 MS. BARHYDT: So I will tell you, I'm not a 3 h uge fan of the two columns. I think that makes this 4 e xtremely complicated. I think the likelihood of us 5 t esting 35 models within a 24-month period with -- for 6 o ne manufacturer with one AEDM, I think the odds of 7 t hat are slim. That is a whole lot of testing and a 8 w hole lot of process. 9 MR. AMRANE: That was not the intent. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: But I don't think -- 11 MS. MEYERS: That was not the intent. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: -- that that's why we were 13 s aying it. It was how we might envision you might be 14 u sing the results from the VICPs, where the VICPs are 15 d oing that kind of testing. 16 MS. BARHYDT: So the VICP discussion should 17 b e a separate discussion about how people within a VICP 18 a re treated. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. Because then they might 20 c ome back -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: These are ground rules -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: -- and then this might be a

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 95 1 d ifferent scenario when you come back on this. That's 2 w here I'm saying we might be circling back, because if 3 y ou now treat us that have more than 35 tests done -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: This is DOE testing. This is 5 n ot VICP testing. This is DOE testing. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: But if you've accepted through 7 t he VICP some sharing of that data -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: We will discuss how that might 9 w ork in the VICP context. My expectation is that I 10 w ould not take AHRI's test data and throw it into this 11 f ramework. That is not what I have thought at all. 12 T his is DOE testing. If there is a much higher volume 13 c oming from a VICP, my expectation is we will discuss 14 h ow that would work when we talk about VICPs. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: And I don't see -- I see them 16 v ery tied. 17 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry. You see them what? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: I see them very tied, because 19 t hen I would -- as a VICP and member of that, if you go 20 a nd you go and you're accepting that testing and 21 s omehow using in validation of our AEDM, then we're 22 c oming back to this discussion and saying, "I don't

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 96 1 t hink that the 2, 4, 6, 8 scenario works." 2 MR. EISNER: Maybe I'm missing something, but 3 I thought Laura said she doesn't envision DOE wanting 4 t o use it. If you want to use it, won't you control 5 t he conditions under which it's used when you make the 6 p roposal? She's saying she doesn't even think it will 7 b e used. If it -- let's assume it is not used. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Well -- 9 MR. EISNER: Would you have a problem with 10 t his? 11 MS. BARHYDT: I am not talking about using 12 V ICP test data in this framework. This is DOE testing. 13 MR. EISNER: So if their going-in position is 14 t here's no need to use VICP testing, would this cause 15 y ou a problem? And if you want VICP testing included, 16 t hat's a very different issue. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: We had a discussion last time 18 a bout -- let's say he did the two, and then we said, 19 " Okay. Now you're going to test more," could we, in 20 f act, use other test data that we -- instead of actual 21 u nits? We were talking about -- when we're talking 22 a bout these expensive units, the $100,000 units, all

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 97 1 t hat kind of stuff. So, you know, could we, in fact, 2 u se that test data that was recently done to a DOE test 3 p rocedure -- could we, in fact, use that test data -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: For substantiation -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: -- and support that for -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: -- of your AEDM to -- for the 7 m anufacturer side of additional validation testing -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 9 MS. BARHYDT: -- yes. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 11 MS. BARHYDT: But that's different than 12 s aying, "I'm going to use an AHRI failure on the left13 h and side of the chart." 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 15 MR. SACHS: Ah, it's a diode; AHRI pass is 16 o kay, an AHRI fail, you won't use? 17 MS. BARHYDT: No, I'm saying they can use -- 18 f rom our -- 19 MR. SACHS: Yeah. 20 MS. BARHYDT: -- perspective, they can have 21 a nyone do the testing for them at any time, so 22 MR. STANONIK: And, I mean, to your semi-

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98 1 c omical point, but the fact is if they're in the 2 p rogram, there's a failure, we take care of it. 3 MR. SACHS: Yeah. Yeah. 4 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. Yeah. 5 MR. SACHS: But the manufacturer, if there's 6 a DOE failure, could bring in the VICP testing as part 7 o f the 8 MR. STANONIK: Well, it's a data point, 9 r ight? 10 MR. SACHS: It's a data point. 11 MR. STANONIK: The data point says, "At this 12 t ime, this product was tested, and it did pass." 13 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 14 MR. STANONIK: Let me -- I mean, let me 15 s uggest something, or at least put it out here. There 16 h as been a lot of discussion about -- and it's very 17 d ifficult, because there's things here that aren't 18 s ettled yet that obviously will affect this. But would 19 i t be something to consider that this goes forward with 20 a statement as to what's been assumed is underpinning 21 t his? 22 And as an example -- I'm just -- just, you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 99 1 k now, some food for thought here. If we said that this 2

- - that, you know, there was some agreement on this 3 c hart predicated on a definition of basic model that's 4 c onsistent with the concept of basic model as practiced 5 b y the industry for the covered product, because we're 6 g oing to have different definitions for covered 7 p roduct. Okay? And the experience that VICP 8 p articipation will be addressed in the regulation with 9 d istinct criteria. 10 So rather than -- these are unknowns at the 11 m oment; right? But I would venture that at least many 12 o f us in the room are assuming that we will have basic 13 m odel definitions that are, again, I will say more 14 c onsistent with how people in industry think of basic 15 m odel for whatever product we're talking about, and 16 t here's also -- even in this discussion, there's some 17 a ssumption that when we do get to talk about VICP, 18 t here will be in the -- or at least in the 19 r ecommendation of the regulations, some unique criteria 20 f or companies that participate in VICPs. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: I would agree. I think -- 22 MR. STANONIK: And my point with that is,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 100 1 o kay, we're moving this forward, but it's been clearly 2 s tated this was, prior to the working group, moved 3 f orward with these presumptions, if you will, or these 4

- - I don't want to call them conditions, but this is 5 t he mindset of the working group. 6 MS. BARHYDT: So, Frank, I'm fine with that 7 a pproach, and I'm actually fine with all of the words 8 y ou said. My only question -- and I just -- I ask this 9 f or clarification to make sure we are all on the same 10 p age -- what does basic model have to do with this? 11 MR. STANONIK: For the industry, where the 12 b asic model becomes important is depending on how I 13 d efine that, okay, is going to affect what my AED -- 14 h ow big a basket my AEDM encompasses -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 16 MR. STANONIK: -- or how many AEDMs I have. 17 O kay? 18 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 19 MR. STANONIK: And so that's the part at the 20 m oment -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Our definition of AEDM -- 22 MR. STANONIK: -- when people look at this

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 101 1 a nd try to grapple with it -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: -- and what is contained within 3 a n AEDM. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: It relates to how we would push 6 t hose. 7 MR. STANONIK: And, see, then it gets into 8 t his question of, okay, I'm tweaking my AEDM, and how 9 m any models am I affecting? And it just ripples 10 t hrough there. 11 MS. BARHYDT: No. Okay. 12 MR. EISNER: Do we want to put this language 13 u p on the screen? 14 MALE SPEAKER: It would be helpful. 15 MS. MEYERS: So say that again. 16 MR. STANONIK: All right. This is -- 17 a dmittedly needs to be defined, but I was -- I -- what 18 I wrote here is that the recommendation of this chart, 19 o kay, is predicated on -- 20 MALE SPEAKER: Go slowly so she can keep up 21 w ith you. 22 MS. MEYERS: I've got it.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 102 1 MS. BARHYDT: She's a fast typist. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Keep talking louder. They're 3 t elling me it's hard to hear you not near the mic. 4 MR. STANONIK: Hard to hear me? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, you got louder as you 6 w ent on, so 7 MR. STANONIK: Predicated on a definition of 8 b asic model that is consistent with the concept of 9 b asic model as practiced by industry, by product type, 10 a nd the expectation that VICP participation will be 11 a ddressed in the -- I'll say the recommendations with 12 d istinct criteria. And my -- what I'm trying to say 13 t here is if you're in a VICP, you're going to get -- in 14 t his recommendation, you'll have separate criteria 15 a pplied to you, or different criteria. I'll say 16 d ifferent criteria. That's the idea I would be putting 17 f orth. 18 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. So 19 w here I see this -- the basic model impacting, if we do 20 n ot have, you know, a clear understanding of basic 21 m odel as practiced by the industry, then the concern 22 w ould be that -- let's say we had a ten-ton heat pump

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 103 1 w ith various model configurations, but four of those 2 h eat pumps were tested, and it's being -- it's 3 b asically the same refrigeration system is being tested 4 f our times. 5 So you're getting counted as four failures 6 f or basically the same refrigeration system, whereas if 7 w e had the understanding of, you know, what the 8 i ndustry uses of basic model, then that system would 9 o nly be tested one time. 10 MR. STANONIK: Or you'd have four tests of 11 t he same basic model, which would kind of be a waste of 12 r esources; right? 13 MALE SPEAKER: Right. Right. 14 MR. MYERS: Could you roll that up for me, 15 p lease? 16 MR. DOPPEL: So then do we need to add basic 17 m odels tested? How about that? 18 MR. STANONIK: I would just -- I'm just 19 t rying to look at it a different way. You're the 20 w orking group. I mean, you can 21 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 22 MR. RIVEST: Basic model.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 104 1 MR. SACHS: Oh, that's another new term. 2 MALE SPEAKER: Well, you're talking for the 3 f ailures? 4 MS. JAKOBS: Yeah, we're talking about here, 5 r ight, the number of basic models DOE sets up? Is that 6 w hat you're saying? 7 MALE SPEAKER: We only select basic models 8 f or testing. 9 MS. JAKOBS: Basic model is in the bottom 10 o ne, where you have to test it for AEDM, two units per 11 b asic model. 12 MS. BARHYDT: So I want to leave that as 13 i ndividual models, because manufacturers can group 14 t hings into basic models, and it is possible that they 15 c ould group everything into -- in one AEDM into one 16 b asic model, and then there's only one. 17 MALE SPEAKER: Right. 18 MR. STANONIK: And yet you'd have all these 19 l isted; right? 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 21 MR. DOPPEL: I think that would be difficult, 22 t o put everything into one basic model.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 105 1 MS. BARHYDT: It depends on how big the 2 m anufacturer is and how much variety they have in their 3 o fferings. 4 MS. MEYERS: It might not be for 5 r efrigeration or boilers. 6 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, they are -- I mean, we 7 c ould put unique models, but 8 MR. DOPPEL: I think unique would be better 9 t han individual. 10 MS. MEYERS: I could go with that. 11 MR. STANONIK: Well, but you've got to have a 12 l isting; right? When you make a certification -- at 13 s ome point, whenever that happens, when you make a 14 c ertification report to DOE, you're going to list -- 15 MR. AMRANE: All of them. 16 MR. STANONIK: -- your models. Those are 17 i ndividual models. 18 MR. DOPPEL: You're going to list your basic 19 m odels. 20 MR. AMRANE: All of them. 21 MR. STANONIK: Whatever you're going to list 22 t o DOE, those are your models.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 106 1 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. You're not going to list 2 a ll your models, because, again, that's -- you'd list 3 t he models with all the stars. That's called the 4 a sterisk. 5 MR. STANONIK: The discussion we've had is 6 h ere's the -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: With all the little asterisks 8 t here. 9 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. Here's the model 10 n umber, and the rest is asterisks. Asterisks do not -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: Wild card. 12 MR. STANONIK: They don't count. Right. 13 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss. I think I may see 14 a solution here. We're looking under the left-hand 15 c olumn, I think, to try to define what AEDM we're 16 t alking about, and perhaps we should be looking in the 17 c onsequences and saying, "Different testing to validate 18 t he AEDM covering the failed product within the 19 v alidation classes." 20 MS. BARHYDT: I think people wanted to limit 21 t he left column as well, though, and that's why it says 22 t hat AEDM. It's that AEDM that was the one tested on

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 107 1 t he left-hand side. 2 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. That means 3 t hat in your listing, you're going to have to define 4 t he AEDM used for any list of model; is that correct? 5 MR. AMRANE: Oh, yes. 6 MALE SPEAKER: You're going to have to 7 i dentify it. 8 MR. AMRANE: You'll have to -- 9 MR. FLY: Identify it? 10 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. 11 MR. FLY: Validate it or whatever the -- 12 MR. AMRANE: Whatever it is. 13 MR. STANONIK: I think in market, one of the 14 e arliest ones we saw was developed for that. 15 MR. FLY: Okay. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, we have equally unique 17 n ames, so. 18 MR. FLY: You can just say you're using 19 T rane's AEDM. Then if it fails, it's not your fault. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: I know it's this acronym, but I 21 c ouldn't tell you what it is. 22 MR. EISNER: Other comments? Are we getting

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 108 1 c loser? Charlie? 2 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I have a real problem 3 w ith the last sentence that was added, where we're 4 g oing to possibly give preferential treatment to VICP. 5 T hat would -- inherently the program itself gives 6 a dditional data points. That gives them additional 7 d ata points they can apply, but if we're giving certain 8 o ther advantages to a member of a particular group, I 9 d on't know how you can defend that legally. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So it says distinct criteria. 11 MR. HON: Right. 12 MS. BARHYDT: And it is queuing it up for 13 l ater discussion. 14 MR. HON: Okay. 15 MS. BARHYDT: I -- maybe I'm going to target 16 K arim here, and I'm going to impose like five times 17 m ore stringent requirements on AHRI participants. 18 MR. HON: Again, it's not right. Everyone's 19

- - 20 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm not saying that we're 21 g oing to give preferential treatment to AHRI members. 22 A ll we're saying is that we're teeing up a discussion

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 109 1 a bout VICP participation later. 2 MR. HON: Okay. 3 MR. AMRANE: But I have -- at the same time, 4 y ou have to recognize, Charlie, that there is 5 a dditional testing and scrutiny going through the VICP 6

- - 7 MR. HON: And I a hundred percent agree. 8 MR. AMRANE: -- that those are not -- 9 MR. HON: Those are all valid points, and 10 t hey can easily be applied into your AEDMs, and they 11 c an be implied -- applied against governmental testing, 12 b ecause if you tested these units, you can go back to 13 t he DOE and say, "Here's test data to drop this unit 14 o ff the test because of validation." We can bring 15 t hose numbers right back down by increased validation 16 b ecause of what you've already done. Statistically, 17 y ou're helping every member by doing those numbers, and 18 t hat's great information, because it protects your 19 m embership. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Well, let's stick to this, and 21 w e'll come back to VICPs later. 22 MR. EISNER: Yes.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 110 1 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss. The -- before we 2 m ove off of this table, we need to, I think, define the 3 t imeline with which our consequences must be acted on. 4 A ssuming we have the two failures -- our first two 5 a ppliances failed, how long do we have to generate the 6 n ew test data and create the new AEDMs and each of the 7 o ther subsequent -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: So there's two ways to do this. 9 W e can put in here specific deadlines. The other 10 o ption is to leave it open, and the Department's going 11 t o work with the manufacturer based on the product and 12 r ealistic testing requirements, because I think there's 13 a huge amount of variability in these products and what 14 w ould be realistic, and I don't want to say 180 days 15 f or something that's mass-produced and has a lot of 16 s tock, and it's fast to test. 17 My preference would definitely be to leave it 18 o pen and -- I mean, everything over there on the right19 h and side, the way this is going to work is the 20 D epartment's going to say, "Here's your test data, 21 h ere's where you are in the process, and we're going to 22 w ork with you to address that, and we can work with you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 111 1 o n timelines based on your products and what's 2 r ealistic." 3 MR. KLEISS: That sounds -- Option B sounds 4 p referable. The -- Jeff Kleiss again. Another thing 5 t hat I think might be worth talking about is the -- 6 g oing back to the spot-checking that you're doing on 7 o ur appliances, the spot-checking, is that counted -- 8 i s that one of the tests, the one out of 35, the 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 10 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Now, if that's being -- 11 t hat being the case, and the fact that we never know 12 h ow many spot checks we pass 13 MS. BARHYDT: We're working on that. We're 14 g oing to start giving you all some -- we're going to do 15 b etter at communicating test data for patents. 16 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Because then associating 17 i f I've got AEDM Alligator, Bear, and Cat -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 19 MR. KLEISS: -- I need to know how many tests 20 h ave been done on each -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 22 MR. KLEISS: -- of these different AEDMs so I

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 112 1 k now where I fall. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. No, we agree, and we're 3 g oing to start doing better at getting all of the test 4 d ata out. 5 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. For my 6 p revious note about the variation in watt size between 7 c ustom-built and made to stock, could we add a footnote 8 t o this table addressing that? 9 MS. BARHYDT: Specifically 10 MR. STEPHENS: The fact that if you random 11 s ample units from seven different locations in the 12 s upply chain, you could possibly come up with seven 13 u nits with the exact same issue, and you would have 14 s even failures, but they would all be related to the 15 e xact same issue. 16 MS. BARHYDT: And I think you're asking for 17 m e to treat those differently than 18 MS. HOOTMAN: I think that -- I think -- 19 y eah, go ahead, Frank. 20 MR. STANONIK: But -- okay. Phillip, but on 21 t hat example, okay, you're -- in this case, you're 22 p utting forth the fact the manufacturer could identify

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 113 1 i f he got a bad component, but let's talk about 2 s omething simple. Let's say it's a water heater, and 3 h owever it worked out, the baffles in the flue were 4 j ust wrong. Okay? But in that case, you identified the 5 f law in the manufacturing process, and whatever -- 6 h owever it took, you essentially adjusted the AEDM. 7 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, but the supply chain, the 8 u nits are already in the supply chain. 9 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. 10 MR. STEPHENS: And the DOE's already 11 i dentified these are not custom-built units. They can 12 g o anywhere in the supply chain at any time to acquire 13 t hese samples. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: And you're saying that lot size 15 t hat's out there in inventory is now out there, and 16 y ou've had that suspect baffle out there, and they keep 17 c ontinuing to pick that same lot size. 18 MR. STANONIK: Right. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Once you have found the 20 p roblem, though, aren't you pulling that lot size 21 p robably back in, and it's not out there, available for 22 t hem to keep picking?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 114 1 MR. STANONIK: As much as we can, yes. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: So I mean, one's a quality 3 p roblem, and that's essentially a supplier quality 4 p roblem. As identified whether it was with this test 5 o r any other test that we've done, you know, you're 6 g oing to be pulling them back in. Yeah, I'm not saying 7 y ou couldn't have picked one or two of those, but I 8 d oubt you'd have gone all the way down to six and 9 p icked six of them -- 10 MR. STANONIK: Right, but -- 11 MS. HOOTMAN: -- because you've probably 12 f ound the problem and said, "Whoops, wait a minute. We 13 h ad a problem with supplier" -- 14 MR. STANONIK: I'm sorry. But so let's say 15 t wo months later, or three months later, DOE picks up 16 a nother one of those and they see the same problem, 17 i t's like, you know, that horse died four months ago. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, you didn't get it out of 19 t he chain. 20 MR. STANONIK: Why do you keep beating it? I 21 m ean, yeah, okay, so they're going to find another 22 f ailure, and you're going to be able to say, "Okay.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 115 1 T hat came out of this lot. You know, we talked about 2 t his three months ago. It's a supplier problem." 3 MR. STEPHENS: But not all manufacturers own 4 a ll of their inventory throughout the supply chain. 5 MR. STANONIK: And historically -- 6 FEMALE SPEAKER: You're going to have to tell 7 t hem to get them out of there. 8 MR. STANONIK: And I sure hope you don't 9 i ntent to bring this up. Historically, there have 10 n ever been DOE regulations that said the manufacturer 11 h ad to go out and retrieve products that were in 12 c ommerce that -- whatever the rating was. 13 MR. SACHS: I'm shocked. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: DOE doesn't handle them. EPA 15 d oes, but DOE doesn't. We could talk about energy 16 s tuff. 17 MR. STANONIK: It would be a whole different 18 m eeting. 19 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? Laura 20 r aised the point about the second column. Do people 21 s till think it should be in? 22 MS. MEYERS: So, again, what the 35 was

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 116 1 i ntended to be was the size of the AEDM, not the number 2 o f models tested. So when I brought that up, it meant 3 t hat if you had an AEDM that covered up to 35 models 4 a nd you had two failures, that was one thing, but if 5 y our AEDM covers a thousand models or over 35, then 6 y our consequences would not kick in unless four of 7 t hose failed. 8 So that was what I meant when we were talking 9 a bout -- not number of models tested, but the size of 10 t he AEDM. So just want bring that up again, because 11 t hat -- you know, I know you're not going to go and 12 t est 35 of the same model, but it was meant that your 13 c onsequences, you know, didn't kick in -- you know, if 14 y ou fail two, and you -- two tests, and your AEDM only 15 c overs ten models, that's a big deal. If you fail four 16 a nd your AEDM covers a thousand models, you know, maybe 17 t hat's not a big deal. 18 So that's what I meant when I brought that up 19 w as more the size of the AEDM and the number of 20 f ailures, you know, would be different based upon -- or 21 t he consequences for the number of failures would be 22 d ifferent based upon the size of the AEDM. So, I mean,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 117 1 w e can still keep it in there, but just -- I'm the one 2 w ho brought that up, and that's what I meant by it. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Why don't you take that column 4 o ut, and let's just discuss it in terms of just the 5 i ssue of whether or not we're looking at -- because 6 w hat I hear Karen saying is that she -- it's not so 7 m uch a one column, two column as a issue of what are we 8 l ooking at in terms of the -- is it the AEDM, or is it 9 t he number of units tested? 10 MS. MEYERS: Well, it's the failures -- 11 MR. DOPPEL: The size of the AEDM or the 12 n umber of -- 13 MS. MEYERS: It's the failures per AEDM, 14 d epending upon the size of the AEDM. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: One based on 35, and one based 16 o n thousands, you know. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Right, but -- so assuming that 18 w e're talking about basic models and not individual, 19 d istinct flavors and variations, the manufacturer has a 20 g reat deal of discretion in how they group things, and 21 s o one manufacturer may choose to group things into ten 22 s mall groups, and another one may choose not to group

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 118 1 t hem at all and have a hundred different ones. And I 2 d on't see why that has that much of a relation to 3 w hether the AEDM is able to do modeling to generate 4 v alid ratings or not. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I think we're back -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: I understand it has the 7 c onsequences for potential rerates, but you have -- 8 w e've set very low requirements to develop an AEDM. 9 Y ou only have to test two in order to have an AEDM 10 s ubstantiated in the first place. A manufacturer can 11 h ave as many AEDMs as they want, as long as they have 12 t wo tests per 13 A EDM. 14 So a manufacturer has it within their 15 c apability to limit their liability by managing the 16 s ize of their AEDMs. The Department does not have 17 u nlimited resources to do a huge amount of testing. To 18 m e, the place where the manufacturer manages the risk 19 i s in how they define their AEDMs, how much testing 20 t hey do to substantiate those AEDMs, but then when the 21 D epartment actually goes in and starts testing, we 22 s houldn't have to do a whole lot of testing to be able

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 119 1 t o say, "You need to go back and look at this again." 2 Two failures on ratings -- all it is, is that 3 y ou have to go back and do a little bit of testing to 4 l ook at your AEDM again. It's not like two tests, and 5 y ou're having to completely redo your entire AEDM. 6 I t's -- two is kind of a kick in the pants to just go 7 b ack and look at this thing again. It's not until you 8 h ave four where there's actually something really being 9 i mposed. 10 MR. DOPPEL: Can we look at what the words 11 a re before you delete that? 12 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, don't delete that yet. 13 MR. DOPPEL: Well, it says "different testing 14 t o validate the AEDM." So it's not -- it's more than 15 j ust a kick. You have to have -- you have to pull 16 d ifferent testing. 17 MS. BARHYDT: But we're also hearing from you 18 t hat you have lots of test data from AHRI's program. 19 MR. DOPPEL: Right. 20 MS. BARHYDT: And if you have all of that 21 t est data, realistically, you're just taking a couple 22 m ore data points, and you're plugging them in and

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 120 1 c hecking that your AEDM is generating valid ratings. 2 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. But you're also going to 3 k now from AHRI if we're having -- the manufacturer's 4 h aving failures or not. 5 MS. BARHYDT: But that is not factoring into 6 t he -- 7 MR. DOPPEL: It's not. But it's knowledge 8 t hat you have. 9 MR. STANONIK: Well, but they would have that 10 w hether or not it came from AHRI, because once the 11 c ertification reporting process is established, the 12 m anufacturer is -- if he's doing business in the United 13 S tates, is going to (a) have to certify models and (b) 14 h ave to report when models are rerated, so they'll 15 k now. 16 MR. EISNER: Still concerns, Karen? 17 MS. MEYERS: Well, I guess I'm still trying 18 t o -- so the consequences -- I don't understand how the 19 f irst two columns are comparing to the third column. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So DOE goes, we buy a unit; we 21 t est it. We go through the full process. We get to a 22 d etermination that the rating was invalid. That's one.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 121 1 W e do the whole thing again. That's two. 2 MS. MEYERS: Uh-huh. And that's when that 3 c onsequence kicks in? 4 MS. BARHYDT: And that's when the consequence 5 k icks in. 6 MS. MEYERS: So the second column means? 7 MS. BARHYDT: So apparently, our 8 m isunderstanding of what you suggested was that if we 9 w ent out and we tested 35 of them, the bar gets raised. 10 T hat has to be four. Basically, it's 4 out of 35 11 i nstead of 2 out of 20. 12 MR. EISNER: There were some people who 13 e xpressed concern that you might get bigger budget and 14 d o more testing -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: Do more testing. 16 MR. EISNER: -- than would be reasonable. 17 MS. MEYERS: Okay. Well, the -- yeah. Mine 18 w as like if 2 out of -- if you have an AEDM that covers 19 3 5 models and 2 fail, that's a 5.7 percent failure 20 r ate; probably deserves a consequence. What I meant, 21 a gain, is if your AEDM covers a thousand models and you 22 h ave four failures, that's a much lower -- that's why I

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 122 1 s uggested the second column be added, because, you 2 k now, it's a completely different issue, and this 3 b ecomes an issue, really, on the HVAC side, where you 4 h ave, like we talked about at the last meeting, so many 5 p ossible models and options that you could -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: But we're not testing all of 7 t hose. 8 MS. MEYERS: But you might pull one of those. 9 MS. BARHYDT: One. 10 MS. MEYERS: And then you might pull, you 11 k now -- so that AEDM covers a thousand possible 12 c ombinations, of which you could pull any of those 13 t housand possible combinations. So that's where -- 14 t hat's why I suggested -- you know, so it's just a 15 d ifferent -- 16 MR. AMRANE: She's talking percentage. 17 MS. MEYERS: I'm just -- you know, if that 18 A EDM -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: I understand that -- 20 MS. MEYERS: -- covers a thousand -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: -- but the reality is we can't 22 t est --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 123 1 MS. MEYERS: -- possible combinations and I 2 f ail two -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: -- 2 percent of Rheem's various 4 m odels. 5 MS. MEYERS: That's just why I -- but so 6 m aybe we don't need that second column. I mean, that 7 m ay be where we're getting to, but that's just -- it 8 d oesn't read right to me. I'm trying to -- 9 MR. RIVEST: I think, Karen, what I was 10 t rying -- part of what I was trying to address is, 11 e specially with the AC and all the option stuff, like 12 w e're -- and everybody's been doing a lot of work to 13 d efine what gets identified as, you know, model number 14 A DCC asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, okay, where all the 15 a sterisks are all the options, you know, what is the 16 k ey -- the basic model that gets listed, and everything 17 e lse is simply options. Okay? 18 And even with that, there's still this large 19 n umber of options and large number of listings, but I 20 t hink it's -- DOE would only be testing the listing and 21 n ot the thing with all the bells and whistles, which is 22 w hat you both have been working on the last three,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 124 1 f our, five days. 2 MS. MEYERS: So, I mean, I -- 3 MR. RIVEST: That's why I said -- 4 MS. MEYERS: I'm not sure we need that second 5 c olumn, then. 6 MR. RIVEST: Well, that's what I'm saying. 7 Again, I was just saying predicated on -- we 8 g et the definition of basic model -- 9 MS. MEYERS: I mean, I just wanted to make 10 s ure, does -- I mean, that's my opinion -- 11 MR. RIVEST: -- that fits how you do business 12

- - right. 13 MS. MEYERS: -- because it's not reading the 14 w ay I intended it to. 15 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, I know. 16 MS. MEYERS: So if it's not going to be used 17 t hat way -- I mean, that's just my opinion. 18 MR. EISNER: But do you still have your 19 p roblem, even if the second column is taken out? It's 20 n ot worded to fix your problem. If they take it out, 21 d o you still have the problem? So I'm having a problem 22 u nderstanding it. I think what you're saying is you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 125 1 h ave many, many more products; therefore, two isn't the 2 r ight number to penalize you, compared to somebody who 3 o nly makes five models, and you make a thousand. 4 MS. MEYERS: Right. 5 MR. EISNER: But if the number, then, has to 6 b e five or ten, I'm hearing DOE say the likelihood of 7 t hem testing ten of any of your models is extremely 8 r emote. They'd never find a problem with yours, which 9 I 'm sure you would be happy with, but how do you pick a 10 n umber, then, that would be appropriate for somebody 11 t hat makes a thousand? Because DOE doesn't have the 12 a bility to test at the same rate. 13 MS. MEYERS: Well, yeah, if I have two 14 f ailings on the AEDM that covers a thousand models, my 15 A EDM could be perfectly valid. 16 MR. RIVEST: Not if you only tested two. 17 I t's not how many you make. It's how many you test. 18 I 'd be more worried about two consecutive failures on a 19 t housand -- a sample of thousand than two consecutive 20 f ailures on a sample of five, because the likelihood 21 t hat you would -- 22 MS. MEYERS: No, because the model would be

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 126 1 s o much more complex. 2 MR. RIVEST: -- pick two in a row that fail 3 o n 1,000 units is pretty small. 4 MS. MEYERS: Well, the modeling, though -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: No, no. The model on -- 6 MS. MEYERS: Your AEDM is way more complex. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: The model on two on five really 8 i s saying there's a problem with the model. 9 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: The failure of two on a 11 t housand says it could be a lot of other things. You 12 t ranscribed a wrong operating map in there from a fan 13 m anufacturer. You did -- there's a problem. No 14 q uestion, there's a problem. I'm not -- but it could 15 o nly be part of those a thousand models that it is 16 a ffecting. 17 MR. RIVEST: And it happens to be the two you 18 p icked. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 20 MS. BARHYDT: And we don't force rerates. 21 MR. EISNER: You don't what? 22 MS. BARHYDT: We're not forcing a rerate.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 127 1 MS. HOOTMAN: No, you have the choices. 2 MS. BARHYDT: The AHRI program -- 3 MS. HOOTMAN: I realize you have -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: -- has rerates built in, and 5 t his is not forcing any rerates. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 7 MR. BAUMAN: If you think about it -- this is 8 J eff from National. If you think about getting back to 9 w hat we're trying to keep out here is the people that 10 a re maybe cheating or whatever, if somebody wanted to 11 b reak into the industry or whatever and do something 12 r eal fast and whatever, they're going to do two units, 13 t est two units, make a thousand AEDMs, and have a 14 t housand models. 15 I'd want DOE to catch them with just two 16 m odels or whatever, that that's not for me to know that 17 y ou guys should be going after that person and their 18 A EDMs should be thrown out, and as we get later, then 19 i t's going to be more. I mean, I think you want this 20 t o have some teeth to it. That doesn't make it very 21 r estrictive on what they can do. 22 I mean, that's -- again, there's a lot of

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 128 1 f lexibility for manufacturers, how they do that, but to 2 m e, that would be -- you know, we could build thousands 3 o f models, but we're not going to build a thousand, 4 b ecause I wouldn't trust that many. Again, it's, you 5 k now, different testing, but if somebody's using 6 t housands of models, again, discounting, you know, all 7 t he variations and things we're saying to take out, it 8 s eems like somebody's trying to make it as easy as 9 p ossible on themselves, and you want to make it as easy 10 a s possible to -- you guys to catch them. 11 MR. EISNER: Joe Sanders on the phone line 12 w anted to make a comment. Joe? 13 MR. SANDERS: Yes, I had a comment. This is 14 J oe Sanders in Tulsa (ph). And that was the AEDM 15 f ailure rate should be based possible on unit 16 p roduction and not on the number of models. Somebody 17 m ay have a lot of models, but no production of any of 18 t hem, where someone else is making a million model -- 19 m illion units of a single model, where they -- where 20 t he statistics don't work out quite right. 21 And then, also, the impact to customer and 22 c onsumers, maybe the failures should be multiplied by

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 129 1 t he energy consumption rate, meaning you get to a 2 c ertain value of kilowatt hours or whatever you need to 3 t rigger, meaning if you're failing by -- if the product 4 u ses one kilowatt hour a day, that's a lot different 5 t han someone using a thousand kilowatts a day as far as 6 t he impact to consumers -- the environment. Anyway, 7 t hat's 8 MR. EISNER: If the number two had to be 9 c hanged to account for larger models, what should it 10 b e? A larger number of models, or a larger number of 11 p roducts manufactured? What would it be? 12 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel. You know, 13 I think we look at, really, what the consequences are, 14 i s you just have to incorporate additional testing to 15 m ake sure that you are satisfied with your AEDM. And I 16 g uess -- I mean, it doesn't say we have to report back 17 t o DOE that we are satisfied. Okay? 18 MS. BARHYDT: We will probably ask for the 19 t est data, but -- 20 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 21 MS. BARHYDT: -- but we're still not digging 22 i nto your AEDM.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 130 1 MR. DOPPEL: So there's -- yeah. 2 MS. BARHYDT: We're still not second-guessing 3 y our model. 4 MR. DOPPEL: There's no rerating required, 5 y ou know. 6 MR. STANONIK: Of other models. Obviously, 7 t he two failed get rerated; right? 8 MR. DOPPEL: I don't know. 9 MR. STANONIK: Well, they failed. This is 10 t he ultimate determination. They failed. So they've 11 e ither been deleted from your product line or they got 12 r erated. 13 MR. DOPPEL: It doesn't say that in the 14 c onsequences. 15 MR. STANONIK: Because this is -- again, as 16 L aura said, this is talking about use of AEDM. Okay? 17 T he -- in one of the earlier meetings, there's already 18 b een the discussion about what the process is for 19 g etting a -- getting to the point that says, "Sorry, 20 t his is a failure." There are a lot of steps in 21 b etween there, including automatic retest, all that 22 s tuff. When you get to the endpoint, it's a failure,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 131 1 a nd then there's -- there was discussions that said, 2 o kay, if that happens, here's your choices. Rerate on 3 t hat model only. Okay? On that model only. 4 MR. DOPPEL: Where is that? 5 MR. STANONIK: It's not here. It's in the 6 p revious meeting. It is 7 T hank you. All right. Okay. Keep going. All right. 8 D evelop a rating process; right? So you've got to the 9 p oint. You said, okay, we've done all the testing, we 10 u sed every mechanism at your disposal to talk about it, 11 a nd the ultimate determination was it's an invalid 12 r ating. And here's what happened. 13 MR. DOPPEL: As I understand it, this chart 14 t hat we're talking about would be part of this report; 15 i s that correct? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it would be the last 17 t hing on -- 18 MR. DOPPEL: So it would be included with 19 t his information? 20 MR. BAUMAN: Or at this point -- or just from 21 a -- we've had discussions earlier too about a bad 22 c omponent or something, and when we've gotten to an

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 132 1 i nvalid rating, my understanding is we've had 2 d iscussions with DOE or whatever, if there was a bad 3 c omponent in that, you're going to say, "Okay. We'll 4 r etest another unit or whatever with the right 5 c omponent or whatever." 6 That's -- an invalid rating is a valid 7 r ating. If you have some reason to show that that unit 8 t hat you tested was defective because of a defective 9 c omponent or whatever, we have ways to work, you know, 10 t o make that a published invalid rating, but to getting 11 a ccurate tests. 12 MS. BARHYDT: I think I agree with what you 13 s aid. You lost me on the published invalid rating. 14 MR. BAUMAN: Well, I guess I'm getting to 15 w here, you know, you do a test that's not valid, but -- 16 a nd then we have discussions and convince you or 17 w hatever that it had a defective component, so that's 18 n ot really an invalid rating. That was a bad product 19 o r bad test. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So it has to actually be a 21 d efective component. 22 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. If it's -- I mean, from

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 133 1 w hat I'm hearing, the discussion and the concerns about 2 c omponents or fans using excessive enough to throw your 3 r ating out of balance, I would think you're going to 4 s how that that's a defective component. If you've got 5 c omponents, various fan motors or whatever, you're 6 g oing to rate based on what you think the worst case is 7 o f your approved suppliers. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 9 MR. BAUMAN: I'm just kind of reminding that 10 w e have ways to work around some of those earlier 11 c oncerns that were raised about a bad component or 12 t hings like that or quality controls and things like 13 t hat, that manufacturers have a way, in the process 14 w e've talked about, to -- 15 MR. AMRANE: We have a definition? 16 MR. BAUMAN: -- compensate for those things. 17 MS. BARHYDT: We do not. So I think I agree 18 w ith what you're saying. 19 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. I have a question 20 a bout that. To me, a defective component means you 21 p lug the thing in and it doesn't turn on. 22 MS. BARHYDT: "Defective" is it doesn't work,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 134 1 i s the oversimplification, but -- 2 MR. BALLO: Not just it uses a little more 3 e nergy. 4 MR. AMRANE: Well, but you could have a 5 d efective component and have your system work, but not 6 p erforming -- you know, maybe being, you know, 60 7 p ercent or 40 percent below the efficiency. It would 8 w ork, though. So that's -- you know, so we'll have to 9 d efine what "defective" means, because it's not like it 10 d oesn't work. It could work, but not perform as it's 11 s upposed to perform. It could have a lot of things, 12 d amaged component during shipping, whatever. I don't 13 k now. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 15 MR. AMRANE: It happens all the time in our 16 p rograms. I mean, those issues happen. I mean -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: You could have a coil that has 18 s older all the way through it, so it performs. It's 19 d oing a test, but it's quite obvious that the 20 t emperature differential across that coil is now, you 21 k now, suspect, and you can say why it is, and you can 22 p oint back to other tests of why that is now. And then

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 135 1 i f you take it out of there and you cut it in half and 2 y ou see all the solder, you go, "Oh, made wrong." 3 MR. BALLO: I appreciate that, it's just -- 4 a nd maybe this isn't the time for this discussion, but 5 i t seems like that's opening up an issue where the 6 m anufacturer's going to have a lot more information 7 a bout their supply chain than DOE is, and if I'm DOE 8 a nd I just had this one unit and I test it, I want to 9 b e able to make a determination up or down with the 10 m inimum amount of potential for a manufacturer to walk 11 o ne through the assembly line to make sure it gets 12 s oldered correctly or, you know, that this particular 13 c oil is soldered correctly. That unit would not 14 n ecessarily be representative of the manufacturer's 15 o utput. Maybe the overly soldered coil is 16 r epresentative of the manufacturer's output. 17 MR. DOPPEL: In the manufacturing process, 18 t here's a thing called "shift change," and many things 19 h appen. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, we could go on and on and 21 o n. A third of them are on vacation. We could go on 22 a nd on and on.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 136 1 MR. BALLO: Well, I mean, that's my main 2 c oncern is that the determination is actually based on 3 w hat -- a unit is representative of production, and if 4 t he crummy one is representative of what you're 5 a ctually putting out, then that has to be what the 6 d etermination's made on. 7 MR. STANONIK: Well, but if you had that 8 c ircumstance, that becomes part of -- as you were 9 s aying, that becomes part of the discussion with DOE; 10 w hether, in fact, this was an anomaly, or, in fact, 11 t hree days of bad shifts, if you will, or whatever. 12 MS. MEYERS: We all have very stringent 13 q uality, you know, processes in place. 14 MR. STANONIK: Yeah, I mean, that's the other 15

- - I mean, there's -- for lack of a better word, 16 t here's errors that will occur in production, and 17 t here's errors that occur in purchase components, and 18 e verybody -- 19 MS. MEYERS: That's the big issue. 20 MR. STANONIK: Well, I know, but -- and you 21 a ll have processes to try and manage the quality of 22 y our purchased components. You have -- you know,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 137 1 y ou're supposed to supply me with this. They're 2 s upposed to check -- you check when some stuff comes -- 3 a nd all that exists, and it exists because, in fact, 4 e very once in a while, something comes through that -- 5 y ou know, you try and aim for a hundred percent, but 6 y ou don't always get there. 7 MR. STEPHENS: The option here is that what 8 w e're bound by is the fallacy of a small sample size. 9 R ight? We're going to be doing small sample size of a 10 m uch larger population. So if you test one unit -- the 11 m anufacturer might make 100,000 of these a year. You 12 t est one unit and it's bad, then you're going to make 13 t he assumption that the company makes bad products. 14 That's not necessarily true, but now you've 15 g ot an anchor that you're going to make your future 16 j udgments on, and it's going to skew everyone's 17 i nterpretation and impression of that manufacturer, and 18 t hat's a very real thing. It's a psychologically 19 d ocumented process, and it has very severe consequences 20 f or the manufacturers. That's why we're so concerned 21 a bout it. 22 MR. BALLO: Well, I appreciate that, but, I

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 138 1 m ean, this -- to be clear, this process is separate 2 f rom the DOE enforcement process, which does require, I 3 t hink, a larger sample size than just one, so this 4 t esting is just calling into question your AEDM, not 5 n ecessarily your ability to meet the standard. 6 MR. AMRANE: I think eventually we'll have to 7 d efine what it is or 8 MALE SPEAKER: I don't know. 9 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know. We'll see. 10 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with 11 C leaver- Brooks. It seems to me that there's such a 12 b road spectrum of products that are being covered under 13 t his that it's really hard to talk about them all under 14 t he same umbrella. Speaking for the products that we 15 m anufacture, virtually every unit that goes out goes 16 t hrough a commissioning process when it's started up, 17 a nd there's a debugging process involved in that. 18 So if we find that there's some deficiency, 19 w hether it's damage during shipment or whatever, we 20 c orrect that before it's turned over to the customer. 21 I 'm thinking that the same sort of process would -- for 22 l arge equipment like we make -- would have to be

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 139 1 a pplied when DOE does its testing. 2 I mean, there has to be a commissioning and a 3 d ebugging and an ability of a manufacturer, if there's 4 a n identifiable defective component or damage or 5 w hatever, to correct that before you make your final 6 j udgment on whether or not that passed as far as a 7 d eficiency test. 8 MS. BARHYDT: So on those products, we had 9 d iscussed having the manufacturer present for the test 10 s o that those normal processes can be followed. 11 MR. MOLVIE: Right. 12 MR. EISNER: It's getting to one o'clock. Do 13 w e want to talk more? Do we want to vote and see where 14 p eople are? Do we want to wait and come back after 15 l unch, after you've had a chance to think about it? 16 MR. DOPPEL: I think an opportunity to 17 d iscuss this over lunch would be good, and then come 18 b ack. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: What was that word -- just -- 20 B ob was out of the room, and I just was trying to tell 21 h im that wording we added, that Frank added. Isn't it 22 s croll down -- there we go.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 140 1 FEMALE SPEAKER: Do you want me to zoom in? 2 MR. WHITWELL: The triple asterisks? 3 FEMALE SPEAKER: Can you see it, or 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 5 MR. WHITWELL: No, I can see it. Okay. And 6 s o I see the table again, so we're back to -- 7 MR. EISNER: I think that we're eliminating 8 t he second column. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 10 MR. EISNER: All right. Would people prefer 11 t o take a break for lunch? Kind of a sense of where 12 y ou are, or you want to try to wrap this up? 13 MR. SACHS: Why don't we take a break for 14 l unch and get together in the morning? 15 MR. EISNER: All right. Why don't we break 16 f or lunch, and everybody can think about it a little 17 m ore clearly? Remember -- 18 MALE SPEAKER: Forty-five or an hour? 19 MR. EISNER: Be back at two. 20 (Whereupon, a lunch break was taken.) 21 MR. EISNER: If I could have everybody's 22 a ttention, I'd like to get started. You guys have had

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 141 1 a n hour. 2 Any comments, any questions, suggestions on 3 t his language up on the screen? Anything you want to 4 t alk about a little more? I'd particularly encourage 5 y ou to think of language that would address some of the 6 c oncerns you have been raising. Does this mean 7 e verybody is happy with it? 8 MR. AMRANE: Maybe you have a question you 9 w ant to raise about the -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: It's not related to this 11 l anguage specifically, but I mean, I guess the question 12 I would have is, should there be a provision for 13 s omebody -- if we scroll up. If you get to that last 14 t hreshold, is there a way for somebody to get their 15 A EDM back or be able to use the AEDM again? Or do they 16 h ave to wait for two years to be up, or what? 17 MR. EISNER: Talking about the last line, the 18

- - 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. If you get to eight, 20 s hould there be a way for somebody to recover the 21 a bility to use an AEDM? One possibility could be that 22 t hey would have to show that they have done root cause

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 142 1 a nalysis and understand what it was in their AEDM that 2 w as causing them to have invalid ratings, and prove 3 t hat they have taken corrective action by having a 4 c ertain number of tests that were done, and have the 5 A EDM with it in its corrected form show that they are 6 a ble to accurately predict what the product is going to 7 d o. 8 Because depending on how many basic models a 9 m anufacturer has, it could be difficult for them -- 10 l et's say after they get to a point and they are 11 g radually moving down the consequences list, if what 12 t he discussion this morning was, the AEDM is the AEDM 13 i s the AEDM, you can modify it, but it's still the same 14 A EDM, they could get to a point where they are at that 15 l evel. I mean, I would hope not, but we ought to -- 16 t he chances are low, but maybe there should be a 17 p rovision. 18 MS. BARHYDT: So what were your suggestions? 19 MR. WHITWELL: They must show -- they must 20 i nvestigate the causes for the failures and identify 21 t he root cause. And maybe it's -- rather than 22 i nvestigate a cause, they must identify the root cause

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 143 1 f or the failures. And then take whatever corrective 2 a ction is required to eliminate the root cause, and 3 t hen have certain -- some number, is it five tests 4 p erhaps, that then would be compared to the new AEDM to 5 s ubstantiate it. 6 And I assume that they then would have to 7 r eview that with DOE. You know, I know initially there 8 i s no requirement for approval of the AEDM, but at this 9 p oint maybe there should be; right? 10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. 11 P erhaps not to authorize the AEDM, but to review with 12 D OE that the steps that are outlined here in fact do 13 a ddress the root cause. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 15 MR. MYERS: Should that X number of tests be 16 d one by -- under the control of a third party? 17 MR. WHITWELL: I think that manufacturers' 18 t est data could be okay. That would be my thought. 19 MR. MYERS: Given the severity of somebody 20 w ho has greater than eight, which we all agree is, how 21 i n the world could that happen, but if it does, if 22 y ou've got a bad player that gets to that point --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 144 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 2 MR. MYERS: -- then I would suggest that X be 3 r eplaced by something like six, four by the 4 m anufacturer and two by -- controlled by a third party. 5 MR. WHITWELL: I would be fine with that. 6 MR. MYERS: We don't want to let them back in 7 t he game of working up to eight again based on -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 9 MR. MYERS: -- a change to this step. 10 MR. EISNER: Do you want to add that to X? 11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 12 MR. STEPHENS: I think I may be confusing the 13 s ituation, but could you provide the definition of the 14 v alidation classes again? 15 MS. BARHYDT: So the validation classes we 16 d efined for each specific type of product, so just one 17 s econd. Just let me switch that. Which product do you 18 w ant to look at? 19 MR. STEPHENS: Do we have just a general 20 d efinition of -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: No. It's specific words for 22 e ach product.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 145 1 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. So all gas-fired 2 f urnaces would be a validation class. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 4 MR. MYERS: Unless you had two AEDMs, and 5 t hen it would be -- it would still be one validation 6 c lass, but you would have had to have done a test. 7 MR. STEPHENS: Initiating AEDM, multiple 8 p roduct classes, that number of -- 9 MR. EISNER: Any comments on this? 10 MS. BARHYDT: I think I have several 11 d ifferent thoughts. One is that manufacturers do have 12 a lot of flexibility in how they group models for a 13 b asic model. And so it would force a manufacturer to 14 c ompress their ratings until they had done additional 15 t esting, but it doesn't mean that they would not be 16 a ble to offer a lot of their products for sale. They 17 w ould just have to test the least efficient and then 18 g roup -- potentially group more models into the same 19 b asic model and rate them all low. 20 So from my perspective, that would be the 21 c onsequence would be they would be forced to 22 s ignificantly downrate, except to the extent that they

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 146 1 h ad actual test data. 2 MR. WHITWELL: But our basic model group 3 d efinitions that we have say that each different 4 c apacity size is a different basic model, right? 5 MS. BARHYDT: So for the HVAC, where you all 6 p ut in a lot more specific -- 7 MR. WHITWELL: Right. In that one capacity 8 c lass there, or that validation class, it's from six 9 t on up to 63 ton, and could include cooling, heat pump 10 s plits, single package. So there could be a whole lot 11 o f products in that class, which means that -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: Right. I see what you're 13 s aying. 14 MR. WHITWELL: -- someone would have to test 15 a lot of basic models. 16 MS. BARHYDT: A whole lot of things. Okay. 17 A nd then the -- I think when you talk about for the 18 f ailures, you are basically saying why -- is the cause 19 o f the AEDM generating the wrong prediction? 20 MR. WHITWELL: It could be -- for example, it 21 c ould be the basic thermodynamic model. There was a 22 p roblem with that. You need to understand, okay, I was

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 147 1 a ccounting for maldistribution of the airflow over the 2 c oil, for example, could be something that -- an 3 e xample of what they might find. Or it could be 4 r elated to some option that is not exempted from -- or 5 s et of options that is not exempted from the basic 6 m odel definition. 7 So, you know, understand what was it that -- 8 w here was the model incorrect, what was causing the 9 e rror in the model. 10 MS. BARHYDT: I think the six tests sounds 11 o kay to me, except for the fact that when you are 12 t alking about the AEDM, it's usually spanning a lot of 13 d ifferent validation classes. I think -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: So six tests for a validation 15 c lass is what you're thinking? 16 MS. BARHYDT: That's what I'm thinking. The 17 h urdle should be significantly higher to get back the 18 A EDM privileges. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I was just thinking 20 a bout it on one validation class. But, yeah, if it 21 d oes span several, then -- 22 MR. SACHS: What we're talking about now is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 148 1 r eally we have found a bad actor. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 4 MS. BARHYDT: And what do they have to do to 5 g et back in -- 6 MR. SACHS: Get their voting rights back. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 8 MR. WHITWELL: And hopefully this process, if 9 t hey ever got here, they would come out of it as a 10 b etter actor, right, because it's going to force them 11 t o take some significant action to improve the ability 12 t o predict -- to model their products. 13 MR. MYERS: When I suggested this, I used a 14 w ord -- it may not have been verified -- but where you 15 s ay "performed by," I would say "verified by," because 16 t here is equipment that can't be tested by the third 17 p arty lab but that can be verified by the third party 18 l ab. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Maybe just put a 20 p arenthetical on that, that basically all of that 21 d iscussion we had before about third party labs, if we 22 a pplied that here, so if it's something that can't be

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 149 1 t ested in a third party lab, so all of that discussion 2 t hat we have in this document earlier -- 3 MR. MYERS: That was -- a lot of that 4 d iscussion was because those tests were directly under 5 t he control of DOE, and you didn't want anybody there 6 u nless you were there, and that sort of thing. Here we 7 a re really just saying that the third party has to be 8 r esponsible for it. If that's done in a manufacturer's 9 l ab, the third party is still responsible for that. So 10 i t's not one where you have to be involved; you just 11 h ave to -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 13 MR. MYERS: -- make sure that all of this was 14 d one. 15 MS. BARHYDT: All I'm saying is that, to the 16 e xtent that it can be performed by a third party lab, I 17 t hink that is what we would be looking for. 18 MR. MYERS: I would withdraw my 19 r ecommendation for six tests and third party 20 v erification, then, because that -- you just upped the 21 c ost. When it -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: I agreed.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 150 1 MR. MYERS: Well, how far do we go? Now we 2 a re being punitive to the max, because if it's DOE's 3 b udget, I hate it because that's a lot of money that I 4 t hink is unnecessary. 5 Going back to the discussion we had before, a 6 b urden that DOE is putting on itself when it is taking 7 i ts money out of its pocket could be more effectively 8 s pent by verifying it where all of us do, which is in 9 t his kind of equipment, in our own labs, with third 10 p arty verification. Here six tests for each product 11 c lass that we -- validation class, that is a tremendous 12 a mount of testing. 13 MR. WHITWELL: But it is only for validation 14 c lasses that are covered by the AEDM that was found to 15 b e bad, right? 16 MR. MYERS: It could be one, but it could 17 a lso be four or five. We don't know how far the 18 m anufacturer broke this out. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Right. But keep in mind that 20 t his action here is to allow the manufacturer to get 21 b ack -- get their product line back out to the market 22 a nd, as an alternative, to test them two -- two units

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 151 1 f or a basic model, which could be even more costly than 2 h aving to test six units, two of which are verified by 3 a n independent third party lab. 4 MR. MYERS: Yeah. And I'm fine with 5 v erifying what -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: Or even tested by a third 7 p arty lab. 8 MR. MYERS: -- propose it's tested by a third 9 p arty lab. Think about some of the larger equipment 10 t hat we've got. You're talking transportation cost, 11 y ou're talking -- I mean, it gets draconian pretty 12 q uickly when what we are really trying to do is to make 13 s ure that you are not just making the same mistakes 14 y ourself, just like you did before when you didn't have 15 t o do this. 16 You want to have a third party that is an 17 e xpert in this kind of testing to verify. And if they 18 a re willing to verify in your lab, I mean, I would even 19 b e okay with saying that the lab that the verification 20 l ab uses has to be 60-025. 21 MR. SACHS: Bob, I think -- 22 MR. MYERS: That is not to say that it has to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 152 1 b e done in a third party lab. 2 MR. SACHS: -- you and Frank are both getting 3 t oward a similar point, that we've got too many classes 4 h ere for a single word, whether it's verify or perform. 5 I t's got to be product class-specific or capacity6 s pecific. Wordsmith it, please. 7 MS. BARHYDT: We can do that. 8 MR. SACHS: And I think that would -- 9 MR. MYERS: Well, I just don't want to end up 10 h aving to take this extremely large piece of equipment 11 t hat someone says in their lab they can test and have 12 t o go through the transportation. Our stuff is built 13 t o work, so when we run that test, we basically are 14 g oing to have to wait until somebody places an order 15 f or it. We can't afford to build the equipment unless 16 s omebody else is paying for the equipment to be built. 17 MR. SACHS: But you would be comfortable with 18 t he language we did earlier? 19 20 21 MR. MYERS: No, I would not. That's what I'm 22 s aying.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 153 1 MR. SACHS: You would not. Okay. 2 MR. MYERS: That's fine when DOE is wanting 3 t o make sure that they are getting everything that they 4 w ant and they are paying. But here, to take a 5 c ustomer's piece of equipment and haul it off 6 s omewhere, run the test on it, and then try and bring 7 i t back and remanufacture it, we need to have the 8 o ption of having a third party. 9 But just like we do in all of our programs, 10 h ave a third party come into our lab and verify the 11 e fficiency that is provided, and then that becomes one 12 o f the -- or two of the six, four in our lab and two 13 t hat they do. 14 MR. SACHS: Do we need specific wording on 15 w hat kind of equipment would qualify for this treatment 16 a s opposed to stuff which you put in a UPS box? I'm 17 b eing facetious. 18 MR. STEM: I think that's too broad. 19 MR. MYERS: This is all commercial equipment. 20 MR. EISNER: This gives more flexibility to 21 w hat everybody seems to acknowledge as the bad guy. It 22 g ives DOE, the decision-making authority, completely up

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 154 1 t o them, why not give DOE the discretion and use its 2 a uthority to decide whether lesser requirements are 3 a ppropriate and justified. 4 So you would say "two of which must be 5 v erified by," et cetera, et cetera, and then, "DOE 6 a uthorization is required to resume use of the AEDM. 7 A nd, in its discretion, it may" -- "lessen" isn't quite 8 t he right word, but lessen the requirements to get the 9 A EDM. 10 MS. BARHYDT: You would change "verified" 11 b ack to "performed," and then, "DOE would have the 12 a uthorization to." DOE could reduce that in its 13 d iscretion, because "performed" is the higher standard. 14 MR. EISNER: So if they make the case, for 15 w hatever circumstance, to lessen them for some of the 16 r easons you point out, they can grant it. Right now, 17 t he way this is written, they have the authority. 18 T heir approval is required. You are giving them the 19 d iscretion to lessen the requirements. Does that take 20 c are of your concern? 21 MR. MYERS: If it said build to order is 22 v erified and other products are performed, then I would

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 155 1 b e okay with that. 2 MR. EISNER: Well, you're not trying to put 3 a ll of the circumstances under which it could be 4 l owered into this document. I'm wondering whether that 5 w ould just open it up to a lot of other exceptions. 6 A gain, we are talking about a bad actor. How much 7 f lexibility do you want to give a bad actor? Eight in, 8 w hat is it, a two- year period. 9 Other comments, thoughts? 10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff. I've got several 11 q uestions about this. Are we saying -- I just want to 12 m ake sure I understand this correctly -- that if we 13 c onduct these tests after you've lost the right to -- 14 t he privilege to do an AEDM, that once you have 15 c ompleted these steps, regardless of where you are in 16 t he 24-month cycle, you immediately get to use AEDMs 17 a gain? 18 MS. BARHYDT: Say that one more time? Sorry. 19 MR. KLEISS: That the -- if you conduct these 20 a dditional tests to reconfirm your AEDM, that even 21 t hough you have lost privileges based on the number of 22 f ailed tests and -- or that's a 24-month cycle, if we

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 156 1 c onduct this and get it done in six weeks into our 24- 2 m onth period, that we could be allowed to use AEDMs 3 a gain? Or do we have to wait for the 24-month period 4 t o expire? 5 MR. STANONIK: This will be a new AEDM. 6 T here is no way of -- if you get to this point, if you 7 g et to this level of punitive measure, you are 8 d eveloping a new AEDM. You haven't tinkered with the 9 o ther one. You had three chances or two chances to 10 t inker. 11 If you get to this stage, you are developing 12 a new AEDM. So if you satisfy all of this, and you've 13 g otten to this point, then why shouldn't you be allowed 14 t o use the new AEDM that was developed with a lot more 15 r igor than your old one. 16 MR. KLEISS: I'm not arguing against it; I 17 j ust wanted to make sure that we're clear on what it 18 i s. 19 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. 20 W ouldn't this case, in effect, be the DOE pre-approving 21 t he use of a manufacturer's AEDM? 22 MS. BARHYDT: We would be approving the use

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 157 1 o f it. We would not be approving the content of it or 2

- - I mean, we are not going to be looking -- we are 3 s till not going to be looking at the model itself. We 4 a re not going to be checking it ourselves. This is -- 5 y ou have jumped through a few additional hoops, but we 6 a re still not going to be sitting there doing an 7 e ngineering analysis on your model. 8 MR. KLEISS: But does this require DOE 9 a pproval for it to start being used? 10 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh. Yeah, it does. Obtain 11 D OE authorization to resume use of AEDM. 12 MR. KLEISS: Okay. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Basically, when you hit the 14 " greater than or equal to eight," you are going to get 15 a letter saying you are no longer allowed to use an 16 A EDM. Basically, we just removed all of your 17 c ertifications that we have on file for that AEDM. And 18 u ntil you do something, whether it's testing and 19 c ertifying based on testing, or you jump through all of 20 t he hoops to get your authority to use an AEDM back, 21 t hose are knocked off the market. 22 MR. KLEISS: One last question or

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 158 1 c larification. Do we need to specify the "and perform 2 s ix additional tests, six new tests"? Or can existing 3 t est data be used? 4 MR. EISNER: Any additional comments? Any 5 q uestions? 6 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. I have a concern 7 a bout the last sentence, "DOE may, at its discretion, 8 r educe or waive" -- that seems awfully wrong to me. I 9 w as -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: I was trying to not wordsmith 11 i t to death, but to give the ability -- I mean, the 12 o ther thing I'm thinking of is, you know, let's say 13 t hat the AEDM is applied to five different validation 14 c lasses. But, in reality, everything we tested came 15 f rom one of the validation classes. And we do a couple 16 o f extra checks of a couple of other validation classes 17 w hen they say, "Oh, no, the AEDM problems really truly 18 a re limited to this validation class." 19 We go out and we test one or two things from 20 t wo of the other validation classes and it looks like, 21 y eah, it really is limited to that validation class. 22 T hat gives us some discretion to say, "Okay. We are

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 159 1 g oing to hold your feet to the fire on this validation 2 c lass," because it really does appear to be limited to 3 t hat. 4 So it just gives us some flexibility to 5 r eally address the problem as opposed to just draconian 6

- - 7 MR. BALLO: It also gives you the flexibility 8 t o say, you know, that this particular manufacturer is 9 r eally a good guy, and we are just going to let them -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: Oh. We don't ever say that. 11 MR. SACHS: I was not recording at that 12 p oint. 13 MS. BARHYDT: I understand your concern. 14 MR. BALLO: I mean, I would rather it said 15 t hat DOE may, in its discretion, reduce or waive the 16 r equirement for third party -- for use in a third party 17 l ab. 18 MS. BARHYDT: But I mean, my hypothetical, 19 i t's not related to third parties. It's related to 20 w hat the real issue is. 21 MR. EISNER: Would you be more satisfied if 22 i t said "justification in writing"?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 160 1 MR. BALLO: Yes. 2 MR. EISNER: Is that all right with you? Is 3 t hat okay with everybody else? 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 5 MR. BALLO: You're okay with that, Laura? 6 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 7 MR. EISNER: Does that mean Laura has to 8 p rovide the justification? 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, it does. 10 MR. EISNER: Any other questions on this? 11 MR. KLEISS: Yes. Jeff again. If we are 12 r equired to do the six new tests, but then looking at 13 t he two units for basic model, how many tests are we 14 r unning? 15 MS. BARHYDT: Wait. Where? 16 MR. KLEISS: If you have greater than eight - 17

- greater than or equal to eight failures. 18 MS. BARHYDT: So up until the point where DOE 19 h as authorized you to resume use of an AEDM, the 20 d efault is that rating has to be done through 21 c ertification testing under our normal regulations, 22 w hich is two units per basic model.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 161 1 MR. KLEISS: So you are testing basic models 2 o nly. So redoing the AEDM is two separate fractions. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Right. 4 MR. WHITWELL: And if you're testing the 5 b asic models, you don't -- you might not want to redo 6 t he AEDM, but it's an alternative to doing all of the 7 t ests. 8 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Thank you. 9 MS. BARHYDT: You could say, "Short-term, 10 t hese are my highest-selling basic models. I'm going 11 t o go ahead and I'm going to do the certification 12 t esting and get these two certified while I jump 13 t hrough the hoops to get my AEDM back." But the 14 c ertification testing route is still on the table. 15 MR. KLEISS: Thank you. 16 MR. EISNER: Other questions, comments? Yes, 17 i n the back. 18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I just 19 w ant to be clear, and I'd like to just hear the words 20 f rom you. I think I know the answer. 21 This last clause we have here "At the DOE's 22 d iscretion, DOE will take into account." I'm assuming

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 162 1 t hat difference in the size of the business, because 2 t his may be a significant penalty to a very large 3 m anufacturer, but to a small manufacturer, this could 4 b e the NCAA death penalty. 5 MR. EISNER: The statute probably requires 6 t hat you take into account the size of the entity when 7 i mposing an enforcement penalty. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 9 MR. AMRANE: This is not an enforcement, 10 t hough. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Hmm? 12 MR. AMRANE: This is not an enforcement. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Well, in a certain way it is. 14 I mean, it is to provide a regulatory -- access to a 15 r egulatory provision as part of an enforcement 16 m echanism. I mean, the whole way you got here was 17 t hrough an enforcement, so -- 18 MR. STEPHENS: So that's a yes? 19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I would say that we are 20 r equired by law to take it into consideration. 21 MR. EISNER: Okay. If no one has anything 22 e lse, I think where we stand on this issue is whether

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 163 1 t o include this chart and the rest of the AEDM package 2 t o forward to ASRAC. We still have to vote on the 3 e ntire package. There were some changes that were 4 s upposed to be made after the last meeting, and there 5 w ere some people who wanted to go home and think about 6 i t. So is everybody ready to take a vote on this 7 c hart? 8 (Several affirmative responses.) 9 MR. EISNER: Hearing no objections, does 10 a nybody abstain from the vote on including this chart 11 i n the report? Does anybody object to including the 12 c hart in the report? So we can put this down as 13 a nother unanimous part of the chart, of the package. 14 Now, let's go through the package. 15 MR. JOHNSON: So how do we get a copy -- 16 e xcuse me. Tom Johnson. How do we get a copy of this? 17 MR. EISNER: I think when we voted on it we 18 c an then provide -- I guess you could email copies to 19 p eople right away, if you want. And we can -- 20 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, please. Thank you. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Or put it on the SharePoint or 22 s omething for us to have or --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 164 1 MS. BARHYDT: Have you gotten your 2 S harePoint? Yes? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Uh-huh. 4 MR. EISNER: Well, in the interim, will email 5 s uffice? 6 MR. JOHNSON: Sure. 7 MR. EISNER: Does somebody from DOE want to 8 w alk through the edits that were made to the document? 9 MS. BARHYDT: I thought we voted last time on 10 e verything except for this. 11 MR. EISNER: Except for this, but there were 12 s ome issues that were still raised, and I think some 13 l anguage that had to be added and maybe it wasn't. 14 MS. MEYERS: He's talking about the 15 d efinition of "basic model." 16 MR. EISNER: But we sent around a version 17 t hat had this marked up redline version. I mean, we 18 c an just go through this section by section or people - 19

- I know four or five people sent in email comments or 20 q uestions. 21 Some people raised some comments with Ashley 22 a fter the last meeting. Do people want me to pull out

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 165 1 t he names and identify yourselves? Or do you just want 2 t o raise those issues separately now and talk about 3 t hem? And the names -- I know there were emails from 4 J eff, Phillip, Tom, and Harvey. And I think a couple - 5

- 6 MR. JOHNSON: As far as I'm concerned, I got 7 m ine answered. 8 MR. EISNER: Okay. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. Those were on basic 10 m odel. 11 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I looked through that. 12 T hat's the only one I am not seeing in the ASRAC box. 13 MR. EISNER: Okay. And those were questions 14 a lso that were asked after the meeting that she sent? 15 O kay. 16 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I think they were all 17 a ddressed. 18 MR. EISNER: All right. Does anybody have 19 r emaining questions on this, they want to talk about 20 a ny of the provisions that were troubling them at the 21 l ast meeting? Some of you talked about wanting to go 22 b ack and talk to others in the group you were

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 166 1 r epresenting. 2 MS. BARHYDT: I thought it was also basic 3 m odel. 4 MR. EISNER: It was all still basic model? 5 MS. BARHYDT: Basic model, yeah. 6 MR. EISNER: So we need a vote. 7 MR. SACHS: Are we comfortable about water 8 s ource issues basically not being on the table? 9 MALE SPEAKER: Well, I mean, the answer was 10 t hat it doesn't include geothermal. 11 MR. SACHS: It doesn't. 12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Are we ready to vote on 13 t his document as a whole, then, with the last chart we 14 j ust discussed added to it? Does anybody want to 15 a bstain from voting on this report going to ASRAC? 16 D oes anybody object to sending this report to ASRAC 17 r eflecting unanimous agreement? In one place, I 18 b elieve it notes there was an abstention on one of the 19 p articular issues. Does anybody object to sending it up 20 i n that way? 21 MR. BAUMAN: I'm not objecting; I just have a 22 p oint for clarification. That my understanding of the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 167 1 g round rules is that, as we agree to something around 2 t he table and it's unanimous, we do not have -- when it 3 g oes back to a NOPR, my understanding was we have 4 a greed to we are not going to basically provide 5 n egative comments about something we have agreed to 6 h ere at the table. 7 MR. EISNER: DOE will never talk to you again 8 i f you object. 9 MR. BAUMAN: I just want to make sure we're 10 a ll clear that that's what -- we are agreeing to all, 11 b ecause I think the comment was made earlier that we 12 c ould always object in the NOPR, but that's not really 13

- - 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, exactly. John was making 15 t hat comment, "Well, it's going to go to NOPR, and you 16 g uys can all make comments again in the NOPR." 17 MR. BAUMAN: And so if you -- I'll say if you 18 w ant to reserve your option to make it potentially 19 n egative, you have the right to vote no. And up to two 20 n o's -- something can still pass with two no's, but 21 t hat gives you the option if you are not sure about 22 s omething.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 168 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Are you saying you can't come 2 b ack in the NOPR and -- 3 MR. EISNER: I think we eliminated -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: I can't remember if it was in 5 a nd then out. 6 MR. EISNER: I thought it was taken out also. 7 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. If I'm incorrect, I 8 a pologize. 9 MR. EISNER: I think the only thing that was 10 l eft in was, "Each party, except individuals that have 11 p reviously expressed dissenting views on the issues 12 c hallenged, agrees not to take a position materially 13 i nconsistent with the recommendation in court, or in 14 a ny other forum, to the extent that the final 15 r ecommendation and its preamble have the same substance 16 a nd effect as the term sheet for a period of time." 17 And I think there was a provision in there 18 f rom an earlier agreement that DOE had with another 19 g roup that they would not comment negatively on the 20 N PRM that was taken out of here. Does anybody remember 21 d ifferently? 22 MALE SPEAKER: Neil, could you speak up,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 169 1 p lease? 2 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry. My understanding is 3 t hat there is an agreement not to challenge or take a 4 p osition inconsistent with the recommendation in court 5 o r any other forum, but that there was a provision in 6 t he draft that was provided to the group that was used 7 b y a former reg neg committee in DOE where they had 8 l anguage in there saying, "You will not comment 9 n egatively on the 10 N PRM." 11 My recollection is that provision was taken 12 o ut. I'm asking if anybody disagrees. Like I think I - 13

- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. But are you saying that 15

- - I mean, if you were to comment that it's not 16 c onsistent with these agreements in a public -- in a 17 N OPR or something like that -- 18 MR. EISNER: No. See, Jill, there was a 19 s pecific provision, "No negative comments, each party 20 a grees not to file negative comments on the proposed 21 s tandard, or its preamble, to the extent they have the 22 s ame substance and effect as the term sheet."

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 170 1 And then there was something on no adverse 2 a ction in support, and then there was a third provision 3 o n no challenge. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 5 MR. EISNER: And that was the one that was 6 l eft in; the other two were taken out. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, okay. From that 8 t ransformer one. All right. 9 MR. EISNER: So with that understanding, 10 a nything else? 11 (No response) 12 S o does anybody object to the report, with the chart 13 a dded to it, going to ASRAC as a recommendation from 14 t his Subcommittee? 15 (No response.) 16 O kay. Very good. I think we now can go on to the next 17 i ssue in the PowerPoint slides. Seventy-some- odd 18 p ages I think. 19 MS. BARHYDT: We are now on Slide 4. 20 MR. EISNER: I think we are up to basic -- 21 h uh? 22 MS. BARHYDT: We're on Slide 4.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 171 1 MR. EISNER: Slide 4. Basic model; right? 2 MS. BARHYDT: So the first few slides are 3 j ust mainly for reference about the basic model 4 d efinitions that people had put forward for their 5 v arious product types. At the last meeting -- well, 6 l et's hold off until we have actually talked about some 7 o f the other things. 8 Does anyone have anything to add or other 9 t houghts on those definitions? Just based on the 10 a ctual -- just the plain wording. 11 MR. EISNER: You're talking starting on page 12 4 ? The only minor thing I would, by the way, note is 13 m ost of the definitions use the word "that" instead of 14 " which." The first few use "which" and it should be 15 " that." 16 MR. AMRANE: I guess we will have definitions 17 f or PTAGs, we will have definition for SPVUs, we will 18 h ave -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: That are different than these? 20 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 22 MR. AMRANE: And definitions for --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 172 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 2 MR. STANONIK: There's a -- well, it's 3 s omewhat minor but it needs to be either universally 4 e stablished or be consistent, and in -- okay. In 5 c ommercial warm air furnaces, okay, it doesn't have 6 t hat phrase "manufactured by one manufacturer." All 7 r ight? 8 Now, I would say that certainly the 9 a ssumption is that these are basic models offered by a 10 m anufacturer. But if I were to just read those words -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 12 MR. STANONIK: -- I've created the 13 p ossibility that my basic model is a Rheem, Trane, 14 L ennox, Carrier, run through the list. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 16 MR. STANONIK: And I could find a basic model 17 t hat would fit that definition without -- so I guess 18 t he question is, do we either someplace establish that 19 c learly we are only talking about products made by one 20 m anufacturer, or do we make sure that phrase is in 21 e very definition. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Is everyone okay with us just

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 173 1 a dding that "manufactured by one manufacturer" language 2 t o all of the basic model definitions? 3 MR. STANONIK: Yes. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 6 MR. EISNER: Are we trying to cover all 7 d efinitions in one fell swoop, or do we want to go 8 t hrough each individually or -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: To the extent possible. 10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Does anybody have any 11 p roblems? I think the definitions came from around the 12 t able. Does anybody have a problem with any of the 13 b asic definitions? 14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. I 15 j ust want to ask Frank Stanonik and some of the other 16 f olks, I seem to remember in working with some of the 17 p rogram requirements for AHRI that there was an 18 a llowance for one manufacturer to take a product design 19 a nd provide it to another manufacturer with no changes, 20 s uch that they did not have to go back through the LEED 21 c ertification. 22 MR. STANONIK: Well, yeah. But it's

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 174 1 e ssentially considered a brand, then. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 3 MR. AMRANE: Private brand. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Private brand. 5 MR. MYERS: But this was a little different. 6 P rivate brand is the same manufacturer making them all, 7 b ut they put somebody else's name on it and they just 8 s ell it. 9 MR. STANONIK: Right. 10 MR. MYERS: This was a situation where a 11 m anufacturer owned the product and could manufacturer 12 i t, and he gave the rights to a -- or sold or gave to 13 a nother manufacturer the opportunity to build that 14 e xact same piece of equipment. And they did not have 15 t o go -- the gist of it is they did not have to go back 16 t hrough reverification. 17 They had to -- they still had to go through 18 t he follow-up, you know, the annual testing and all as 19 a separate manufacturer, but they didn't have to go 20 t hrough the verification -- the front end testing, 21 b ecause that was already done by the original 22 m anufacturer, so it didn't have to be repeated by the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 175 1 s econd manufacturer. 2 MR. WHITWELL: So in a case like that -- 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Let's say you wanted an 4 e xclusive license design? 5 MR. WHITWELL: In a case like that, who would 6 m aintain the engineering documentation on the design? 7 MR. MYERS: They were duplicated and provided 8 t o the second manufacturer. 9 MR. WHITWELL: But then, would the second 10 m anufacturer perhaps modify that design over time, or 11 w ould he always get updates from the first 12 m anufacturer? 13 MR. MYERS: This was a one-time transfer. 14 O nce that was done, then it is another manufacturer -- 15 t hey have to do all of their annual testing. If they 16 m ake changes, they have to go through the normal 17 p rocess. But the initial work, since it was 18 t ransferring over as the identical piece of equipment, 19 t hey didn't have to do the initial verification. 20 MR. WHITWELL: But the second manufacturer 21 c ould make changes to it, so I would say -- 22 MR. MYERS: But not without going through the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 176 1 n ormal program requirements. 2 MR. WHITWELL: So it becomes -- it could be a 3 s eparate basic model by the second -- for the second 4 m anufacturer. Different basic model. 5 MR. MYERS: But then it is just their coming 6 o ut with a new basic model, no different than the 7 o riginal manufacturer who might diverge. This was just 8 t he point of transfer for the identical product, but 9 n ot the identical manufacturer. 10 MS. BARHYDT: I can tell you we have seen 11 t his kind of scenario with other manufacturers. And 12 t he first manufacturer didn't want anything to do with 13 t he stuff coming off the other manufacturer's line, 14 b ecause they didn't want to accept liability if the 15 s econd manufacturer's line wasn't building to spec. 16 A nd so they insisted on the second manufacturer 17 c ertifying it separately as their own manufactured 18 p roduct. 19 MR. STANONIK: And I think, I mean, that kind 20 o f makes sense. Even if the initial rating of the 21 p roduct was testing done by Manufacturer A, right, 22 M anufacturer B, who is now building the same design in

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 177 1 t heir facility I think would still list it as a basic 2 m odel, his basic model, that company's basic model. 3 And if it need be, they still have -- 4 a ssuming whatever the contractual agreement is -- they 5 s till could fall back on the original testing of 6 M anufacturer A because he had a rating that is 7 s upported by this testing or this AEDM, or whatever. 8 But as we all said, from there on, they are 9 r esponsible for subsequent maintaining that rating, 10 r ight? But I think it still ends up being Company B's 11 b asic model, you know. I mean, it fits. 12 MR. MYERS: That part I agree. This was just 13

- - this case of where one manufacturer is selling the 14 p ackage to another manufacturer. In fact, the example 15 t hat was used in the Compliance Committee was it wasn't 16 e ven both of them manufacturing. 17 It was one company didn't want to build it 18 a nymore, so they sold it lock, stock, and barrel, 19 t ooling and everything, through Manufacturer B, but 20 M anufacturer B didn't want to have to retest everything 21 i n order to get into the program. And there was 22 a greement, yeah, if it's the identical product, they

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 178 1 d on't have to re-verify. Change anything and you are -- 2 MR. STANONIK: Right. 3 MR. MYERS: -- it's a new model. 4 MR. EISNER: All right. As we talk about 5 t hese definitions, I notice that some of them still 6 h ave blanks, X's where numbers need to be. That's one 7 o f the reasons we need to go through all of them, or am 8 I missing something? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: We can't hear you, Neil. 10 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry. Some of the 11 d efinitions that are up here have blanks in them or 12 t hey have X's in them. And that's why I'm wondering 13 w hether we need to go through each one, even if it's 14 q uickly. 15 MR. SACHS: I'm not sure we came to a 16 r esolution on this exclusive license thing. 17 MS. BARHYDT: The second manufacturer is 18 s till a manufacturer, and they certify it as their own 19 b asic model. 20 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 21 MR. EISNER: Okay. 22 MS. BARHYDT: You wanted to talk about the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 179 1 P TACA (ph)? 2 MR. AMRANE: Right. But maybe we should 3 s tart with the other products. 4 MS. BARHYDT: You want to do the other 5 p roducts first and then come back to -- 6 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Because it's going to be 7 s imilar to -- yes, so maybe the large commercial -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 MR. AMRANE: -- would be probably the one to 10 d iscuss, and then -- 11 MR. NESHAN: Can we do CRE, please? 12 MR. AMRANE: If you want to do CRE, we can do 13 C RE. 14 MR. NESHAN: This is Deshawn. I have a 15 q uestion. When you're talking about basic model, we 16 a re manufacturing an exact model display case, three 17 f oot long, four foot long, six foot long, six and a 18 h alf, eight, ten, or twelve. To us it's that same 19 m odel. But according to this, it cannot be one model 20 b ecause the -- what is happening, the consumption is 21 d ifferent. So you are going to tell me that one model 22 h as eight different models?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 180 1 MS. BARHYDT: So if you have an AEDM, you can 2 r ate them all differently and not have to do additional 3 t esting. But the way the test procedure and the 4 s tandards are currently set up, we can't combine those 5 d ifferent sizes into one basic model. And that is a 6 f unction of the current regulations for that product. 7 MR. AMRANE: Why? I mean, I don't -- 8 MR. NESHAN: Excuse me? 9 MR. AMRANE: No, no. I don't think that's -- 10 MR. NESHAN: I thought that's what we are 11 d iscussing here, to come up to an understanding. You 12 a re telling me that is already said and done. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So, well -- so the way it is 14 s et up right now, if you -- because the consumption is 15 g oing to be different for each one, and the consumption 16 i s not a -- the consumption isn't some number of units 17 o f energy per volume. I know that's how you measure it 18 a nd how you end up calculating it, but that is not the 19 w ay the standard is written. 20 MR. NESHAN: Excuse me. Energy efficient 21 s tandard, the way it is defined is per linear foot or 22 p er opening, per square foot of opening. It isn't the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 181 1

- - what you have set it. It's per TDA. That is total 2 d isplay area. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Total display area; right. 4 MR. NESHAN: Which it really covers the 5 d ifferent sizes. One size -- for one point of view, 6 y ou are saying use it on a linear basis because that 7 d efines. Now here you are saying, no, you can't use it. 8 I t doesn't make sense. 9 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. I think in this 10 p articular case I would agree that it shouldn't matter 11

- - 12 MS. BARHYDT: It shouldn't matter. 13 MR. AMRANE: -- as far as basic model 14 d efinition, whether you have, you know, like you said, 15 y ou know, four feet at -- you know, I don't think it 16 s hould matter. It's just the same as, you know, for 17 o ther products when you group, you are not -- well, at 18 l east the definitions that we are proposing are not 19 n ecessarily saying that you have to have the same 20 e nergy efficiency. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So you would rate it in terms 22 o f a function of the total display area. You would not

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 182 1 r ate it in terms of the consumption of the unit. 2 MR. NESHAN: That's how we have to define it 3 i s TDA. I mean, energy consumption per linear foot per 4 h our. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Right. I know that's how you 6 c alculate the standard. 7 MR. NESHAN: But that's how we have to report 8 a s well. 9 MS. BARHYDT: To AHRI. 10 MR. NESHAN: AHRI. And then in the DOE, the 11 f ormula that is given is based on TDA -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh. 13 MR. NESHAN: -- or volume depending on -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 15 MR. NESHAN: So basically, that eliminates 16 h ow long or how tall or -- you know, how long this 17 t hing is. So if that is allowed, then under this 18 d efinition it should also be allowed. 19 MR. SHEBIK: Laura, I think when you and I 20 w ere talking before, you said that it would apply to 21 t he AEDM, not the basic model; right? So the practice 22 o f the AEDM would take into consideration the linear --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 183 1 t he energy consumption per foot would be your AEDM. 2 Y our basic model would be something totally different. 3 I t's a different -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. So the AEDM is different 5 t han the basic model, and the AEDM addresses it -- I'm 6 n ot sure if your question is about the testing burden 7 i f you don't use an AEDM. 8 MR. NESHAN: Even if I'm using AEDM, it's 9 b ecause that's -- it's a basic model. I have to have 10 A EDM for that basic model. To establish -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: No. You can use one AEDM for a 12 w hole lot of different basic models. 13 MR. AMRANE: That's true. 14 MR. STANONIK: But the whole point -- 15 MR. NESHAN: But I can't, because I will be 16 t ested. You are telling me these are different. 17 MS. BARHYDT: No. No. The requirement for 18 a n AEDM is that you have two tests for each validation 19 c lass, and the validation classes for CREs, for -- 20 MR. NESHAN: It was two per basic model. 21 MS. BARHYDT: No, it's not two per basic 22 m odel. It's two per validation class.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 184 1 MR. WHITWELL: It's two per basic model if 2 y ou don't have the AEDM. 3 MS. BARHYDT: If you don't have an AEDM. 4 O nce you have an AEDM, the whole point of an AEDM is to 5 r educe how much testing you have to do. The whole idea 6 o f the AEDM is that you no longer have all of those 7 t esting requirements per basic model. 8 MR. NESHAN: Right. But I'm talking -- look 9 a t the basic model. You are defining what the basic 10 m odel is here. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 12 MR. NESHAN: And that is the objection, to 13 t he basic model definition. 14 MR. RIVEST: Just a question. Excuse me. 15 W hen you report your model numbers in your catalogues, 16 a re they -- do you have a different model number by 17 l ength or -- 18 MR. NESHAN: No, no. 19 MR. RIVEST: -- it is always per linear foot? 20 MR. NESHAN: No. It's not -- we say Model A, 21 c ould be two foot, could be 14-foot long. Okay? 22 T hat's how they come.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 185 1 This is different like -- as defined in DOE, 2 y ou know, it says open display cases vertical, or 3 s omewhat vertical. That is how -- 4 MR. RIVEST: But your model number would just 5 r efer to the cross-section, if you will. 6 MR. NESHAN: Yeah. Correct. 7 MR. RIVEST: Okay. That's it. I never ran 8 i nto that, but it seems permissible to me. 9 MS. BARHYDT: I've seen it before. 10 MR. RIVEST: So a basic model would have to 11 b e rewritten such that it says "per unit" something, 12 p er unit of volume or per unit of -- 13 MR. NESHAN: The efficiency is the same, but 14 t he consumption is going to be different. 15 MR. RIVEST: So it would say "having the same 16 p rimary energy source, essentially identical 17 e lectrical, physical, and" -- 18 MR. NESHAN: They are not going to have 19 i dentical electrical, because a two-foot case has one 20 f an, a four-foot case has two fans, and so on. 21 MR. RIVEST: Right. But on a per unit basis 22

- -

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 186 1 MR. SHEBIK: Per linear foot. 2 MR. RIVEST: -- per linear foot -- 3 MR. NESHAN: Per linear foot, yeah. 4 MR. RIVEST: -- it works out; right? 5 MR. MARANTAN: I have a question just to 6 c larify. Are you concerned that the energy consumption 7 w ould be different per linear foot or per -- 8 MR. NESHAN: No, no, no, no, no. I'm not 9 t alking about the per linear foot. This one is talking 10 a bout energy consumption. 11 MR. MARANTAN: Energy consumption, period. 12 O kay. Well, maybe what would help is if we thought 13 a bout the standard for commercial refrigeration. It is 14 a lready normalized to whatever it is that is 15 a pplicable, total display area or refrigerated volume. 16 A nd so I think that implies that it is part of -- 17 MR. NESHAN: No, no. It doesn't imply -- I 18 m ean, if you are implying here, about six years from 19 n ow someone else is going to read it different. 20 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. So -- 21 MR. WHITWELL: I would suggest taking out the 22 w ords "affect energy consumption, water consumption, or

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 187 1 w ater efficiency" here because they -- my understanding 2 i s the metric is energy efficiency, efficiency per 3 l inear foot. So that is the only one that applies 4 h ere. 5 MR. AMRANE: Consumption. 6 MS. BARHYDT: It's a consumption standard. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So energy consumption. 8 S o take out energy efficiency, you know, the things 9 t hat don't apply. I mean, this was like a -- that was 10 t aken from a general -- 11 MR. AMRANE: Right. 12 MR. WHITWELL: -- definition. 13 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So what about energy 14 c onsumption per normalization measure? There is a few 15 i n play for CRE. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. So it's energy 17 c onsumption. So that is the metric -- that measure for 18 C RE; right? 19 MR. MARANTAN: Yes. Does that help? 20 MR. NESHAN: You can say per TDA or volume, 21 w hatever, I mean, those are the two metrics. 22 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Per TDA or volume.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 188 1 MR. NESHAN: Or volume. Yeah. 2 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. 3 MR. NESHAN: Same thing that is in the -- in 4 a minimum energy efficiency standard. 5 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah. 6 MR. EISNER: Does that address your concern, 7 t he language that was added? 8 MS. BARHYDT: Does that work? 9 MR. SACHS: The hydraulic characteristics 10 w ould refer to the cold water tap on the CRE? 11 MR. AMRANE: No. It's -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: You can take "hydraulic" out. 13 MR. SACHS: Just trying to figure it out. 14 MS. BARHYDT: We are going to have to double 15 c heck that one. I remember Ashley saying something a 16 w hile back, and I've got to go back through my emails. 17 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 18 MR. RIVEST: So the standard is just a -- 19 MR. WEBER: My only thing that I would 20 m ention is if you made all of the different cabinet 21 l engths for models be able to be collapsed into one 22 b asic model, then DOE would ostensibly only have one

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 189 1 r ecord in its database, and that would represent some 2 l ength. If DOE wanted to know the energy consumption 3 o f each length, and had that certified, then it would 4 n eed a model for each length. 5 MR. RIVEST: Right. But these are scaled; 6 r ight? 7 MR. NESHAN: Yeah. But, I mean, that's 8 a llowed for them to, you know, use a factor to multiply 9 b y that number. 10 MR. RIVEST: I don't see a problem until I 11 s ee a problem. 12 MR. NESHAN: Yeah. Same here. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else on CRE? Go 14 a head. 15 MR. MYERS: Just looking at the last part of 16 t hat sentence, it seems like when I read that 17 c ompletely it needs one other characterization. If you 18 d on't have total display area or refrigerated volume, 19 w e have applicable -- "appears to only apply to those 20 t wo." And then, wouldn't it need to have something 21 t hat indicates per model or per display area or per 22 r efrigerated volume?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 190 1 MS. BARHYDT: No. There are two different 2 k inds of standards for CRE. One is based on total 3 d isplay area; one is based on refrigerated volume. So 4 i t's whichever of those two things, as applicable. "As 5 a pplicable" is not referring to everything in that -- 6 MR. MYERS: Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else on CRE? 8 MR. RIVEST: Just a question here. Sometimes 9 t hese are set up as a constant, plus the linear slope. 10 T he basic model -- this implies that there is just the 11 l inear fit. Could you have a case where you have two 12 d ifferent intercepts and the same slope? 13 MR. NESHAN: Same case you said? I mean, 14 s orry. To us means display cases. Say that again? 15 MR. RIVEST: Are the standards a constant 16 p lus -- like mx plus b, basically. So sometimes the 17 c onstant may be different. This just talks about the 18 s lope. 19 MR. NESHAN: For the same model, the constant 20 i s the same. 21 MR. RIVEST: The constant is the same for 22 w hat you would consider a basic model.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 191 1 MR. NESHAN: The basic model. And this has 2 h ow it's defined, so -- 3 MR. RIVEST: So it's not really per foot; 4 r ight? It's -- 5 MR. NESHAN: Well, it's per family or per 6 c ategory of display cases. But you cannot mix a multi7 d isplay case, vertical display that is semi-vertical. 8 T hey have different formula, different relationship, 9 d ifferent constant, different model. 10 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah. Each of the standards 11 f or the product classes has a different equation, and 12 e ach equation has a Y-intercept and a slope assigned to 13 i t. 14 MR. RIVEST: But that would not give you an 15 a verage -- the average change. 16 MR. SACHS: Massoud, I find myself -- 17 MR. RIVEST: Like the N effect. 18 MR. SACHS: I find myself confused, because 19 i n Line 4 it talks about essentially identical 20 e lectrical, physical, and functional characteristics 21 t hat affect energy consumption. And as I read that, it 22 i mplies to me that if these are self-contained,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 192 1 e verything from the two foot to the 14 foot would have 2 t he same compressor and the same coils. 3 MR. NESHAN: No. Not self-contained. 4 S imilar. 5 MR. SACHS: Pardon me? 6 MR. SHEBIK: Self-contained or remote? 7 R emote or self-contained? 8 MR. NESHAN: There are two different -- I 9 m ean, the formulas that exist, there are two different 10 f ormulas, one for a self-contained, one for remote 11 d isplay cases. Okay? As you said, even though we 12 m ight use identical fan motors, but use more of them, 13 o bviously, in a longer one than a shorter one. Same 14 t hings with lights and other, so it's really linear in 15 t hat sense. 16 MR. SACHS: But it's very different than from 17 t he use of the term basic model for other kinds of 18 e quipment. The question again, it's easier for me to 19 t hink about this for self-contained, where as soon as I 20 c hange the compressor capacity it is no longer the same 21 b asic model. It may be in the same AEDM, but it is a 22 d ifferent model.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 193 1 MR. NESHAN: Correct. But that -- even in 2 t he self-contained, it is based on TDA. 3 MR. SACHS: So what I'm trying to say is 4 t hat, as I'm hearing this, Line 4 is not compatible 5 w ith this concept of longer units which may have the 6 s ame energy per total display area, but have different 7 c ompressors, different heat exchangers, and multiples 8 o f the same fan or multiples of different fans. 9 MR. NESHAN: Okay. 10 MR. SACHS: So I think there is still a 11 f undamental distinction here between -- 12 MR. NESHAN: So what? So what if they have? 13 A re you interested in efficiency or how they build and 14 w hat components we use in our display cases? 15 MR. SACHS: What I'm interested in is trying 16 t o make sure that the definitions are self-consistent, 17 s o you don't get in trouble six years from now. 18 MR. NESHAN: No, no. I understand. No, no, 19 n o. We won't get into that confusion because we have 20 b een doing it for God knows how many years. My concern 21 i s no confusion to be here. 22 MR. SACHS: It is -- I am not worried about

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 194 1 y our confusion. I'm worried about DOE's. 2 MR. NESHAN: Yes. I'm more concerned about 3 D OE's; right. 4 MR. SACHS: So if it's not consistent with 5 t heir expectations, we need to think about different -- 6 MR. NESHAN: I understand. But, see, in the 7

- - the way the standard is written, it says that even a 8 s elf-contained case, we have to -- there is a formula, 9 a constant. What is a self-contained or remote? Even 10 t hough they are different relationships, different 11 f ormulas, but same still applies, in that there is a 12 c onstant and there is a TDA or volume involved. 13 MR. SACHS: I understand that. But it is no 14 l onger -- it is now scaled electrical, physical, and 15 f unctional characteristics rather than identical. 16 MR. NESHAN: Correct. 17 MR. SACHS: And it may be that only that -- 18 s ubstituting that word would solve my stomach churning. 19 MR. NESHAN: You are absolutely correct. But 20 I have to say, on the remote display cases, you still 21 h ave to -- you might have the same thing in that 22 d epending whether you are using any LED lights or

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 195 1 f luorescent lights, the ballasts for the power module 2 a re going to be different for a four-foot case versus a 3 1 2-foot case. So not necessarily 100 percent 4 i dentical, but they have the same characteristics. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So how do you -- 6 MR. SACHS: But that to Laura, as I'm 7 u nderstanding it, would be a different basic model, but 8 i t could be evaluated with the same AEDM. 9 MR. SHEBIK: Yes. Massoud, that's -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: How do you know what the 11 c onsumption is of the four foot versus the 12 foot? I 12 k now our standard has a function, but how do you know? 13 I f you test a four foot, how do you know what the 14 c onsumption is of the 12 foot? Do you just multiply by 15 1 2 or by -- 16 MR. NESHAN: No, by three. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 18 MR. NESHAN: Basically. 19 MR. BAUMAN: When you certify -- this is Jeff 20 f rom National. When you certify a basic model -- and I 21 h ave just gone back and looked at the difference 22 b etween certified basic model and certified individual

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 196 1 m odel -- if I certify a basic model that is CRE, I have 2 t o submit the information on what the volume of that 3 u nit is. So those models would not have the same 4 v olume. I don't know how they could be the same basic 5 m odel, then, if they -- I mean, that's a -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: So what the report -- 7 MR. BAUMAN: -- because the difference is 8 n on- rated features. Part of your rating is your 9 v olume that you published, right? 10 MS. BARHYDT: Under the current -- 11 MR. NESHAN: The way that AHRI -- or under 12 A HRI the model numbers are defined is different than 13 w hat is defined here. Okay? Under AHRI, a model 14 n umber means like a multiple display case, a vertical 15 d isplay case. Whether it is two foot or 20 foot long, 16 i t is still the same model number. 17 MR. EISNER: Ron? 18 MR. SHEBIK: I agree with you. I guess I was 19

- - I'm kind of looking at both approaches. I kind of 20 s ee how you could do it both ways, where once you know 21 y our - - if your basic model is -- there's a basic 22 m odel definition, if you can apply it to a four-foot

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 197 1 c ase, then your AEDM would allow -- you know, for a 2 r emote case, let's look at remote only, essentially 3 l inear. So if you had a four-foot case, you know your 4 e ight-foot case, you know your 12-foot case, you know 5 y our 16-foot case, because it's modular. It's a 6 m odular case. 7 So I guess I'm kind of seeing that you could 8 k ind of run both ways with it, I believe. Your AEDM 9 c ould be applied to figure out what your different 10 l engths would -- 11 MR. NESHAN: If I may, we know if you have a 12 f our foot, eight foot, 12, six, 10, whatever, the four13 f oot case is the least efficient display case. That's 14 h ow it is. Okay? So when you test a four-foot case, 15 t hat is the worst case scenario. 16 I don't have to test a six-foot case. I 17 d on't have to do eight or 12. I know I am going to be 18 b etter efficiency-wise when it comes to a 12-foot long 19 c ase. So if I published it, or if I'm in compliance 20 u nder the requirements of the four-foot case, I'm sure 21 t hat the 12- foot case would comply and there wouldn't 22 b e any problem. Okay?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 198 1 So I just test the four-foot case. I don't 2 h ave to go test all of these other stuff. Okay? 3 MR. RIVEST: And then you divide by four that 4 e nergy consumption and report that as a -- 5 MR. NESHAN: Oh. There is something you have 6 t o do, and that is the score for the opening or display 7 a rea or volume. That gives us the number to see if we 8 a re in compliance with the requirements of the minimum 9 e nergy efficiency standard or not. 10 If I am, then I am. I don't care about this. 11 I don't have to test. I don't have to do anything. 12 A nd I would challenge -- or like DOE wants to test it. 13 G o ahead and do it, spend the money. You'll find that 14 t he 12-foot case, for example, is more efficient. 15 O kay? 16 So I'm not concerned about it. But if I have 17 t o go and test all of these other ones, it's a lot of 18 c ost. For large companies, maybe it's not an issue. 19 F or a small privately-owned manufacturing facility -- 20 MR. RIVEST: With the AEDM, you would never 21 h ave to test it. You would just -- it's just a matter 22 o f what data you put into the --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 199 1 MR. NESHAN: I know. 2 MR. RIVEST: -- database. 3 MR. NESHAN: But I wouldn't issue -- the 4 b asic model definition we have here also applies later 5 o n in other discussions. If you agree to this one now, 6 t hen other -- then you are going to be basing -- our 7 d iscussion will be based on the fact that this is the 8 b asic model definition. 9 And energy consumption is going to be 10 d ifferent. If you are going to use the total 11 c onsumption as a means of defining what a basic model 12 n umber is, then it is not going to work, because if I 13 h ave to test, if it's based on consumption, I have to 14 t est every single -- any of those cases. 15 No, no, no. Hold on. Yes, I have -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: I hear what he's saying. Yeah. 17 MR. NESHAN: Two basic models, I have to test 18 1 2 each basic model. 19 MS. BARHYDT: If we don't base it on -- 20 MR. RIVEST: On an AEDM. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. And he's saying that if 22 y ou look --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 200 1 MR. RIVEST: He has an AEDM right now. It's 2 m ultiplied by -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Right, right. But he's 4 a sking about -- assume he has no AEDM. What is the 5 b asic fundamental certification testing requirement? 6 I s it for this whole line with all of the different 7 m ultipliers? Or is it for my -- this type of case? 8 MR. RIVEST: The thing is, there is no 9 t esting a one-foot sliver. 10 MS. BARHYDT: No. Exactly. 11 MR. NESHAN: But, again, the key point is if 12 w e accept the basic definition, you cannot have basic 13 m odel definition for this -- for when you have AEDM, 14 a nd then have a basic model definition for linear 15 t esting. I'm assuming you want to have -- hmm? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, you do. Basic model 17 i s used for testing and for certification based on 18 t esting. AEDM is -- and this is what -- in our 19 d iscussions about AEDMs, I kept asking, what is the 20 r elevance of basic model? Because the AEDM is not 21 b ased on basic models. 22 MR. NESHAN: No. I agree. I agree. But

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 201 1 w ould you have a different definition for what a basic 2 m odel is? It seems that DOE is stuck with one -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: Would I for an AEDM? 4 MR. NESHAN: Oh, no, no, no. I mean, in 5 g eneral. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Oh. 7 MR. NESHAN: Our discussion for the past two 8 y ears has been to define what is a basic model -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 10 MR. NESHAN: -- definition is. 11 MS. BARHYDT: And so on this definition, I am 12 w illing to leave this up here for now. Seriously, I 13 h ave to go back and look at all of my emails, because I 14 k now Ashley and I exchanged some emails about this 15 d efinition. 16 MR. NESHAN: Do you understand what I'm 17 s aying? 18 MS. BARHYDT: I completely understand what 19 y ou're saying. I'm just -- I've got to go back there, 20 a nd I've got to look at the regs and I've got to look 21 a t some emails. 22 MR. NESHAN: Because once we define that, our

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 202 1 p roblem is that we a lot of times manufacture one of a 2 k ind. And that would be a basic model by itself, and 3 t hen I have -- we sell only one per year. I have to 4 t est two of them and sell only one, which doesn't make 5 s ense commercially. 6 MS. BARHYDT: No, I understand that. 7 MR. NESHAN: That's a different discussion to 8 h ave, but basic model definition means a lot. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Just as long as you understand 10 t hat if you had an AEDM you would not actually have to 11 t est that one. 12 MR. AMRANE: And maybe the discussion 13 s houldn't be based on the assumption that we will have 14 a n AEDM. Maybe it should be based on if you had the 15 t est. 16 MS. BARHYDT: And that's fine. 17 MR. SHEBIK: That's a whole separate 18 d iscussion. And if you make one-of-a-kind models, and 19 y ou have to test, you are not going to test two, if you 20 o nly make one. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Which is why I think the 22 D epartment is figuring that most people at this table

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 203 1 a re going to want to have an AEDM, because for one-offs 2 A EDMs are the way to go. 3 MR. SHEBIK: I agree with that, but I think 4 i t is -- I mean, your question is not that; right? 5 MR. NESHAN: No, no. No, no, no. Please 6 d on't have that kind of perception. When I'm talking 7 o ne of a kind, it's completely one of a kind. There is 8 n othing like you have seen before. So if you can't -- 9 t here is nothing to base it on. 10 MALE SPEAKER: And you may never build it 11 a gain. 12 MR. NESHAN: May never build it again. 13 MR. RIVEST: So how does this help you? 14 MR. NESHAN: This doesn't help me. 15 MR. RIVEST: Oh. 16 MR. NESHAN: No, no. No, no. This one -- 17 t he basic definition means a lot, though. Defining 18 w hat the basic model is, not for one of a kind, but for 19 t hose other ones that I was talking earlier about. 20 MR. SACHS: This point came up one or two 21 s essions ago, and the point seems to me to be very 22 c lear. If it is a true one-off, then the sample is the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 204 1 u niverse, and there is no sense in testing two. Okay? 2 MR. NESHAN: Yes. 3 MR. SACHS: The only one is the one that you 4 t est. 5 MR. NESHAN: Correct. But please put it in 6 b lack and white. 7 MR. SACHS: I would be happy to put it in 8 b lack and white, but I don't write it. 9 MR. NESHAN: Well, I mean, whoever writes it, 10 I mean, because they say "minimum of two." And that is 11 a problem. 12 MR. SACHS: And "minimum of two" is based on 13 t he assumption that we are sampling a universe. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 15 MR. SACHS: And in this case, the universe is 16 o ne. 17 MS. BARHYDT: One. 18 MR. SACHS: Yeah, it's one. 19 MR. EISNER: Then you'll have two or 100 20 p ercent of the ones you -- 21 MR. SACHS: Right. 22 MR. FLY: So, Harvey, can you rate an AEDM as

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 205 1 a one-off? I mean, rate that one-off with an AEDM, 2 t hen? 3 MR. SACHS: If it belongs to the product -- 4 t he verification class? 5 MR. FLY: Yes, correct. 6 MR. SACHS: I see no reason that you can't. 7 Y ou would have your choice of using the AEDM or testing 8 t hat one-off. 9 MR. FLY: Because if you are a one-off 10 m anufacturer, you really don't -- you may not want to 11 t est everything that you make in a -- 12 MR. SACHS: But then -- 13 MR. FLY: -- situation. 14 MR. NESHAN: Unfortunately, you may have to. 15 MR. SACHS: At that point, you have the 16 o ption of doing an AEDM. 17 MR. NESHAN: We have to test everything we 18 m anufacture. We have to meet NSF requirements, and 19 t hat is from the product temperature point of view, and 20 w e have to meet the DOE's -- it says after January 1, 21 2 012, everything has to meet the minimum energy 22 e fficiency status. So we have to meet the numbers, but

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 206 1 I cannot test two of them, you know? I just -- 2 MR. FLY: You are only making one. 3 MR. NESHAN: I make one, I test it. If it 4 d oesn't work, I make sure that it works before it 5 l eaves the door. And then I might never see that 6 r equirement or request again. So it's tested, but I 7 h ave to test it because I have to make sure it 8 p erforms. So AEDM doesn't mean -- doesn't make sense 9 f or us to do. 10 MR. SACHS: I don't think anyone is asking, 11 u nless DOE still is, for testing two of a unique 12 p roduct. Yes. 13 MS. BARHYDT: We would have to change our 14 r egulatory language. 15 MR. SACHS: Well, darn it, get going. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Understood. 17 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 18 MR. EISNER: Okay. 19 MR. KLEISS: In that situation, is it 20 c onducting two tests on the same unit? 21 MS. BARHYDT: No. The whole point of the two 22 t ests isn't to test that product. The two tests is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 207 1 s upposed to be a test of the population. It's a 2 s ampling. And so two tests of one unit doesn't tell 3 y ou anything more about the population. But, 4 u nderstood, if you have a population of one, then your 5 w hole universe is one, and you have tested 100 percent 6 o f your units. 7 MR. SACHS: But testing the same unit twice 8 d oes tell you something about the lab. 9 We don't want to go there. 10 MR. EISNER: So we are off of CRE? 11 MR. SACHS: I'm not sure we -- 12 MR. EISNER: Are there other things -- 13 MR. SACHS: -- language. Well, I think we 14 h ave concepts. 15 MS. BARHYDT: I really have to go back and I 16 h ave to do a little research tonight before I can 17 c ompletely agree to that language. But for the 18 c oncepts, I'm with you. 19 MR. HON: Well, there's secondary -- Charlie 20 H on, True Manufacturing. There are secondary issues 21 a lso in that same wording of the law that say that you 22 h ave to do certain things, number one of which is take

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 208 1 i t -- try and get different lots whenever possible. 2 But it goes on and on and on -- the criteria 3 t o try and segregate so that you don't duplicate the 4 s ame lot number and everything else. They are wanting 5 m ore justification for it. So the only way to fix it I 6 t hink is regulatory action saying if there is only one 7 b eing made, that is all you have to test, because right 8 n ow there is no way around it, the way the regulations 9 a re written. 10 MR. RIVEST: Getting back to this per linear 11 f oot or per TDA, would there be manufacturers who would 12 o bject to that because they would like to take the 13 b enefit of the energy -- the fact that as they get 14 l onger they are more efficient per linear foot? So is 15 t his an industry -- is your position an industry 16 p osition, or is it your company position? 17 MR. NESHAN: No. This is the one that DOE -- 18 t he minimum efficiency standard as written. 19 MR. RIVEST: I know that. What I'm telling 20 y ou is that by defining the basic model to be scalable 21 f rom, you know, four feet to 12 feet, and it's like our 22 b asic model grouping, if you will. If you are going to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 209 1 b e underrating the longer cases, right, so it could be 2

- - it's possible that some manufacturers, for whatever 3 r eason, would like to show you lower energy 4 c onsumption, but they couldn't if this was the basic 5 m odel definition, because they are -- 6 MR. NESHAN: Why not? 7 MR. RIVEST: Because every -- the four-foot 8 c ases would have the same budget as -- the 12-foot 9 c ases would have the same per linear budget as the four 10 f oot. 11 MS. BARHYDT: You could do that. You'd say 12 t hat 4 to 8s have this number, and then the 12 to 16s 13 h ave a different number. 14 MR. RIVEST: Yeah. There's nothing in their 15 c ompliance statement that would say how long it is. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Well, no. I mean, we would 17 h ave to collect that, if they wanted to be -- if they 18 w anted to have the flexibility to do that, but that's 19 i n the certification requirements of what they provide. 20 MR. RIVEST: But isn't that -- they would be 21 p roviding a per linear foot number. And then everyone 22 w ould have to go on a per linear foot basis.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 210 1 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But you -- 2 c onceptually, on a certification report, we could 3 c hange the certification information to say length of 4 c ases that you are certifying, and then could put 4 and 5 8 , and they could put in one linear foot number. And 6 t hen on another one they could say these are our 12- to 7 1 6-foot cases, and put a different number. 8 MR. STANONIK: And there would be different 9 b asic models. 10 MS. BARHYDT: And certify those as different 11 b asic models. 12 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff again. I think it 13

- - 14 MS. BARHYDT: Conceptually, it's possible. 15 MR. BAUMAN: -- that you have -- it seems 16 l ike opening a can of -- I would say "worms," but it's 17 m ore like snakes here, because you take it to the other 18

- - you're talking about all CRE here. You're not 19 s aying just open cases that are the same profile or 20 w hatever else. 21 I mean, you talk about reaching -- you know, 22 s omebody has got a single section and a three section.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 211 1 W ell, the only difference is the length. That's not a 2 c ase per se of what we are talking about here on the 3 d escription, but you're -- now you're going to -- they 4 a re going to determine total energy consumption by 5 s quare footage or by unit volume and report that as 6 o pposed to having to report different volumes and -- 7 d ifferent volumes for each one. 8 I mean, it really changes -- it changes 9 a round the whole way I think I have or that we have 10 l ooked at this thing, because you did your display area 11 a nd you did your total energy consumption, you know, 12 f or that unit, so you knew that case had to meet that 13 e nergy consumption. I think it's opening a can of 14 w orms for me, and I would put -- I don't know -- I've 15 g ot to think on this a little bit from my perspective, 16 t oo, but it's a lot different than what we're talking 17 a bout or have this -- as far as I know, this part of 18 t he industry has looked at ratings as far as, you know, 19 a gain, looking at EnergyStar, and things like that. 20 I mean, a customer, a potential customer goes 21 t hrough and he looks through a bunch of numbers and 22 s ays, "This is what the energy should be used now. It

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 212 1 i s going to be -- that's per unit volume," and you're 2 g oing to have to figure out all of that. So I'd just 3 l ike to -- 4 MR. NESHAN: Well, that's how it is done. 5 T hat's how you are -- we have to perform our testing 6 a nd report the numbers per volume or per unit volume or 7 p er unit of display area. 8 MR. BAUMAN: That may be the case for some 9 C RE products, but it's not -- I mean, close -- 10 MR. NESHAN: It's all of them. 11 MR. BAUMAN: -- or for -- 12 MR. NESHAN: It's all of them. 13 MR. BAUMAN: That's how the requirement is to 14 m eet EnergyStar. But when you publish to Energy -- 15 MR. NESHAN: It's not EnergyStar, first of 16 a ll. 17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. Can I -- but we are 18 t alking about what we are going to do here is 19 p otentially and likely going to be used by EPA as they 20 a re going to have similar types of standards. 21 Maybe that standard is going to become you 22 p ublish per unit volume as opposed to right now for EPA

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 213 1 o r for any listings that are out there, there is a 2 m odel number, there is the volume published, and there 3 i s an energy consumption for that product, what it is 4 g oing to use per day, kilowatts per day or whatever. 5 I mean, this is going to change around a lot 6 o f how it is looked at I think as far as -- if this was 7 t o, you know, be used for this product class and this - 8

- and we are talking about this entire product class, 9 n ot just open cases or not just -- so that's -- I'd 10 n eed to wrap my head around it a little bit, I think. 11 MR. RIVEST: You realize a lot of products 12 h ave this mx + b equation. A clothes washer could -- a 13 r esidential refrigerator is the same way. There they 14 r eport a basic model has a different volume. You know, 15 d ifferent volumes would be different model numbers. So 16 w hat you are proposing is a head-scratcher here. 17 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, True 18 M anufacturing. Either one works because if you know 19 t he length of the case, you just plug in the formula. 20 I t's simple arithmetic almost and multiplication/ 21 d ivision type function. If you know the internal 22 v olume, it's simple multiplication again.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 214 1 So if someone wants to calculate it, and if 2 y ou guys are willing to accept it, that's fine. It's a 3 b road category or broad brush. But for us as an 4 i ndividual company, we won't do that because we are 5 g oing to say, okay, that line may not be straight, and 6 w e want to capture all of the numbers more accurately. 7 I don't want to give up my advantage of a 8 t hree- door refrigerator being more efficient per cubic 9 f oot than the two-door, and even more so than a one10 d oor. So from the manufacturing viewpoint, we are not 11 w illing to give up our advantage that way. But if 12 s omebody else wants to, I don't care. 13 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff. I guess I want to 14 g et clarified -- I agree with you, Charlie. I'm trying 15 t o understand, though, also can I -- if that's 16 c onsidered a basic model, can I have -- can I subdivide 17 y our basic models into my basic models and what I want 18 t o call basic models? 19 MR. RIVEST: Well, it sounds like -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Can you put multiple basic 21 m odels within one of them? Or the other way around? 22 MR. BAUMAN: I guess multiply -- you know, I

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 215 1 w ould do the same as Charlie. I'd multiple -- I 2 w ouldn't probably use this type of value published, but 3 I would use -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: We always let people slice and 5 d ice them into smaller pieces. You can't conflate 6 d ifferent things into one basic model, but you can 7 c huck -- the broadest possible interpretation of it, 8 y ou can dice into smaller parts. 9 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. The other part is, again, 10 t he guys that are going to cheat, or stuff like that, 11 i s this going to make it easier for them to eventually 12 g et in there? 13 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. I think that it 14 j ust leaves you wide open. If I see a formula in there 15 c overing a certain kilowatt per day per cubic foot, I'm 16 g oing to go with the smallest unit in that category, 17 a nd I'm going to look at it real seriously, because 18 t hat is going to be the most common error factor is the 19 s mallest one, because you've got more external surface 20 a rea; therefore, more heat loss off the cabinet. 21 And if you are using a standard formula, 22 e ither they are suffering a terrible penalty at the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 216 1 h igh end or they are exposing themselves at the low 2 e nd. So it is a business decision that can be made, 3 b ut I sure won't make it. 4 MS. BARHYDT: So we'll come back to this 5 t omorrow. But are there any other issues with it that 6 h aven't already been at least raised for head7 s cratching and pondering? 8 MR. BAUMAN: I'll say, too, and the wording 9 a lso -- aside from these -- you know, if we are going 10 t o keep it to the -- I think what we're -- the concept 11 t hat we're talking about here, the way I read it having 12

- - one manufacturer having the same primary energy 13 s ource, and then essentially identical electrical, 14 p hysical, and functional characteristics, and I kind of 15 p ause there under the -- what we're talking about here 16 i s those cases don't have the same electrical and 17 p hysical. It almost has to become the wording -- it 18 h as to change to add "the same characteristics, such 19 a s" -- okay. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. I agree that if we go to 21 t hat, those words are going to have to be -- 22 MR. AMRANE: And for every definition, I

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 217 1 t hink we need to put this -- that we are doing it by 2 p rimary energy source, and maybe we should put that in 3

- - 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 5 MR. AMRANE: So that they should be able to 6 k now what we mean by -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 8 MR. EISNER: Okay. Nothing else on CRE? 9 W hat's the next one we have to discuss? 10 MS. BARHYDT: PTACA. 11 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. This one is an easy one. 12 M aybe when we're done with this we can go to the 13 d ifficult one. 14 MS. BARHYDT: So I know everybody went back 15 a nd did a lot of homework. I've heard that there's a 16 s preadsheet, although I didn't get a copy of it. 17 MS. MEYERS: John got a copy. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: I thought I sent it around. 19 MS. BARHYDT: You didn't send it to me? 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm sorry. I sent it to the 21 e ngineer. 22 It should be on the computer, though; right?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 218 1 MR. RIVEST: I mean, I think there are two 2 s ets of issues here. One was to try and get a sense of 3 s ome common understanding about what it means to be 4 c omparable for those products -- for things like 5 c omparable condensing coils, comparable evaporator 6 c oils, things like that. And then the second part is a 7 c ommon understanding about what should be excluded from 8 t esting, which is the bullet points below. 9 So we just created some slides there to try 10 a nd see if there are any clear-cut distinctions that 11 a re there. This gets us down to the list of 12 e xceptions. 13 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. Before we 14 b egin, could you go back one slide? 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yep. 16 MR. HUNT: If you were to write this 17 d efinition for what we're doing right now, what would 18 i t look like? Would it stop at "cooling capacity" and 19 l eave out "basic model does not" and everything else? 20 O r even the first four, five, six lines are different 21 t han what we do now? 22 MR. RIVEST: No. It would be the top would

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 219 1 a pply, and then you would have a list of exclusions. 2 MR. HUNT: So if we stopped right after 3 " cooling capacity," that is the definition now. 4 MR. RIVEST: Yes. 5 MR. HUNT: Okay. Is there a problem with 6 t hat? Are we saying that we've decided there's a 7 p roblem with that? 8 MR. RIVEST: Yes. 9 MR. HUNT: Okay. 10 MR. RIVEST: All of those things below that 11 l ine. 12 MR. HUNT: Okay. 13 MR. AMRANE: Actually, do we want to keep 14 " the same and comparable expansion device" in the 15 d efinition, or should we -- 16 MR. SACHS: If something was explicitly put 17 i n a session or two ago -- 18 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Well, I'm asking to make 19 s ure. You want to keep "expansion device" in there? 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Actually, I had a 21 q uestion about why -- whether or not we need "expansion 22 d evice" in there. I don't know that it -- yeah, I

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 220 1 t hink it's too much detail. And, I mean, if it has an 2 i mpact on -- normally it is not going to impact the 3 E ER. It might impact part-load performance. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 5 MR. WHITWELL: But DOE is only covering EER 6 h ere, full-load performance. 7 MR. SACHS: The sense -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not the same as 9 r esidential, Harvey, and commercial. 10 MR. SACHS: The sense I had, and you all 11 p robably can educate me, is -- two things. One of them 12 i s a little bit of fear that I might be establishing my 13 b asic model with an EEV and then using things which 14 d on't give me as good control of flow into the 15 e vaporator in the same basic model group without 16 c orrecting for it. And my other concern is that I 17 s uspect these definitions will last into an era when we 18 a re doing things like IER and maps. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So if that's the case, 20 t hen I would assume that somebody that is using a fixed 21 o rifice versus a TXV or EXV is going to take advantage 22 o f that in the IER rating in the future. So, you know,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 221 1 y ou might have basic models that are different, and 2 h ave different expansion devices, or you could group 3 t hem together. I think it -- 4 MR. SACHS: You certainly can group them in 5 t he AEDM. It wasn't clear to me that grouping them in 6 t he basic model made sense. Again, I could be wrong. 7 T his is not an area I claim to be an expert in. 8 MR. WHITWELL: I just don't see it as adding 9

- - having it in there as part of the basic model 10 d efinition. 11 MR. SACHS: Well, is there consensus among 12 t he manufacturers on that? 13 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. I would agree. 14 MR. SACHS: I'm outvoted. 15 MR. AMRANE: No, no, no. 16 MR. SACHS: Karim, not voting? 17 MS. BARHYDT: So we took a stab at same or 18 c omparable compressor, and we are wondering if that is 19 w hat you meant when you wrote that or -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 21 MS. BARHYDT: No. So can you explain what 22 y ou meant by "same or comparable compressor"?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 222 1 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. I 2 m ean, a scroll versus a reciprocating would have a 3 d ifferent performance map. We're saying that those are 4 n ot the same. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. 6 MR. FLY: Two different brands with the same 7

- - 8 MS. HOOTMAN: That's -- 9 MR. FLY: -- might be -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, yeah. So the comparable 11 i s more around brands, more around -- they have model 12 g roupings as well, compressor manufacturers kind of 13 h ave model groupings, all with the same kind of 14 p erformance. So the model number might be -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: But I think if you read up 16 t here, "same or comparable," same type, such as scroll, 17 w ith comparable performance maps. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. You're right. 19 MR. WHITWELL: I think that's okay. 20 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. Okay. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So this is more limiting than 22 c urrent DOE definition. DOE would let you group

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 223 1 " scroll" and "reciprocating" as long as you tested and 2 r ated the least efficient. Do you want to limit 3 y ourself? 4 MR. AMRANE: It depends what you mean by 5 " limiting," because -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: Well, so you are -- so if you 7 d o not have an AEDM, you would have to test to scroll 8 a nd to reciprocating. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Not if it's the same model. 10 MS. BARHYDT: According to this, they cannot 11 b e the same basic model. 12 MR. STANONIK: But today if you had -- if you 13 h ad a design that was available either with a scroll or 14 a reciprocating -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: They are going to be very 16 d ifferent products. 17 MR. STANONIK: It wouldn't have the same 18 m odel number, would it? 19 MR. WHITWELL: No. No. I mean, they are 20 g oing to be very different. Right. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: And we are taking advantage of 22 d ifferent operating maps there and what they are doing,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 224 1 a nd so on. So I just can't imagine why you would want 2 t o -- 3 MR. STANONIK: It's not like somebody would 4 o rder one with a scroll and you'd say, "Oh, we ran out 5 o f those today, so I'm giving you one that we sell." 6 MS. BARHYDT: No. I knew it's not something 7 y ou would substitute, but -- 8 MR. STANONIK: Okay. Yeah. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Well, I know it's not something 10 y ou would substitute, but -- 11 MR. STANONIK: Yeah, okay. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: We know that. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't think we would group 14 t hem together and not take advantage of what one or the 15 o ther is giving us. 16 MR. WHITWELL: One or the other is going to 17 b e, yeah, I mean, there's a reason why we would be 18 u sing one or the other. 19 MS. BARHYDT: That's what I would think. The 20 q uestion is do you want to leave that flexibility in 21 t he definition, or do you want to force it so that 22 s omebody who is certifying based on testing is forced

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 225 1 t o test to either, both. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think you need the 3 f lexibility. 4 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I 5 t hink this derived, and help me Karim, this kind of 6 d erived out of the HRI basic model recognition. 7 MR. AMRANE: I think so, yes. They have 8 s imilar wording. 9 MR. FLY: It has similar language in it. 10 MR. RIVEST: And the way I think about this 11 i s these differentiations that you've made and the 12 d efinition are those digits that you are in fact 13 r eporting specifically in your catalogs in the 14 d atabase. And those options that you want deleted are 15 t he asterisks. Is that the word? 16 MS. HOOTMAN: That's pretty close. 17 MR. RIVEST: Kind of. So this would mimic 18 w hat you're already doing. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 20 MR. RIVEST: And here I guess we were just 21 a sking if there needed to be more specificity as 22 g uidance for selecting products down the road. Like

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 226 1 w hat you meant by different, say numerical compressors, 2 a nd there are other things you would want considered in 3 s electing, if it's not being done by HRI. 4 MR. WHITWELL: I'm sorry; could you repeat 5 t hat? 6 MR. RIVEST: So these examples were just to 7 p rovide additional guidance to Department if it's going 8 t o select a product. Say it's not part of a VICP and 9 w e want to make sure that we're actually creating, you 10 k now, picking products that are not different, or that 11 t hey are different. So we thought of this as a 12 d ifference. I don't know if there are other things. 13 S o I mean, your question is would we want to eliminate 14 t he possibility of somebody having scroll and 15 r eciprocating compressors, and moving them together in 16 t he same basic model. 17 MR. DOPPEL: I mean, why would you want to 18 p revent them from doing that? 19 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, I know, that's what I'm 20 t hinking. 21 MR. DOPPEL: They feel their AEDM covers 22 b oth?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 227 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, the AEDM could still. 2 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, absolutely. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it would affect the 4 r ating. 5 MR. AMRANE: Where are we seeing the 6 d ifference where everything has to be the same in the 7 d efinition. I'm not seeing it. Well, let's talk about 8 t his, because it's not in the definition that's up 9 t here. 10 MR. RIVEST: Our basic model. 11 MR. AMRANE: Well, look at it. No, no, look; 12 I don't see anything about deficiency here. 13 MR. RIVEST: The basic model is reporting the 14 e fficiency. You can't have more than one deficiency 15 r eported to one model. 16 MR. HURST: Regardless of the type of 17 c ompressor. 18 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe I guess, you know, 19 g iving it, thinking about it that way, comparable 20 c ompressor would be one that has, and if it has 21 c omparable performance at the rating in the rating 22 c onditions --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 228 1 MR. HURST: It doesn't matter what type it 2 i s. 3 MR. WHITWELL: It doesn't matter what type it 4 i s. 5 MS. JAKOBS: When you say comparable, it's 6 s ame or better. Because you're saying it has to be the 7 s ame or better. Because you're saying you have to rate 8 i t at the lowest. 9 MS. BARHYDT: The lowest. 10 MS. JAKOBS: So it would have to have the 11 s ame performance or be better. 12 MS. BARHYDT: The system as a whole would 13 h ave to be better. 14 MR. FLY: But, yeah. 15 MS. BARHYDT: It's not all -- 16 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. But 17 y ou couldn't go out and advertise the better; you have 18 t o advertise the ballistic. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 20 MR. FLY: So maybe you could put a better 21 c ompressor in there and you'd be giving somebody 22 s omething more than what they ask for. But you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 229 1 c ouldn't make that statement, because that's part of 2 t he core. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 4 MR. JOHNSON: So this is Tom Johnson. 5 R usty's on my shoulder talking here right now, so his 6 d efinition would be primary compressor shall be 7 s pecified by model number, and alternate compressor 8 s hall have equivalent mass flow rate within two 9 p ercent. And equivalent or lower power consumption, or 10 a ny saturated suction temperature or inside discharge 11 t emperature within the products approved operating 12 f rame. 13 MR. WHITWELL: I think that's more detained 14 t hat you're looking for. 15 MR. JOHNSON: I know. I'm just throwing it 16 o ut there. 17 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, that's like supply a 18 s pec sheet along with a certification. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: But he's right. 20 MR. JOHNSON: If we could simply that. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So, I'm thinking this is 22 d iscussion and clarification. You don't actually have

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 230 1 t o make anything, just What's the next thing? What 2 a bout condensing coils? 3 MR. WHITWELL: I think that covers it, right, 4 s imilar geometer. So -- and one comment I had on this 5 i s that we have cases where we have round two plate fin 6 c oils and micro channel available for a specific model 7 a nd we rate them the same. We would like to be able to 8 h ave that be in the same basic model. So it's really 9 c omprisable UA value is really what I think is what is 10 s ignificant here; right? 11 MR. RIVEST: Because they wouldn't have the 12 s ame geometry, maybe not even the same service area. 13 MR. WHITWELL: And the material is aluminum, 14 a nd copper in one case, and it's all aluminum in the 15 o ther. 16 MS. BARHYDT: So it's just comparable 17 p erformance? 18 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, do we need to define 19 e ach of these, or is it up to a manufacturer to 20 d etermine whether, you know, what's comparable and then 21 h ave this? 22 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think we need to. Part

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 231 1 o f this is we want to make sure that everybody at the 2 t able is talking about the same thing. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, okay. 4 MS. BARHYDT: And is thinking the same thing. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Just we don't want to be 7 t alking past each other. 8 MR. RIVEST: Would those two products you 9 d escribed have the same model number on the HRI 10 d atabase? 11 MR. WHITWELL: No. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: No. Well -- 13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 14 MR. RIVEST: The client would want to know if 15 t hey're buying one or the other. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Well, they would know. I 17 m ean, the customer orders the full model number. They 18 d on't order a model number with a asterisks; right? 19 MR. RIVEST: So they would have. 20 MR. WHITWELL: They would know. When they 21 p lace their order they pick the model, the specific 22 m odel number out of our literature, which would say

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 232 1 w hich coil with this. 2 MR. RIVEST: But if those digits have the 3 s ame number, how would you -- 4 MR. WHITWELL: They don't have the same 5 n umber. 6 MS. MEYERS: They don't. They might have an 7 a sterisks. 8 MR. WHITWELL: They don't have the same 9 n umber. 10 MR. RIVEST: So that feature, okay. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Right. I mean, that specific 12 d igit, which is an asterisks, it would say whether it 13 w as round two plate thin, or micro channel, or coated 14 c oil, or copper, all copper coil. There's a lot of 15 d ifferent options for that. It specifies what is that 16 e vaporator coil, and then it also could specify what 17 t he condenser coil is in that one digit. 18 MS. BARHYDT: And so you said that two of 19 t hose have the same rating. Do some of those other 20 v ariations have different ratings? Or does everything 21 i n that variable have the same rating? 22 MR. WHITWELL: They would have the same

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 233 1 r ating. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Everything would, okay. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: If we boiled it, shall we say, 4 u p to that level, then we're saying that all of them 5 a re in that same rating. I'm sorry. 6 MS. BARHYDT: I couldn't hear the last thing 7 y ou said. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Then, you know, if we boiled 9 t hat up to that same level, then all of those 10 u nderneath there are having the same rating. 11 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. But we could 12 a lso subdivide those groups if we wanted to say the 13 c oated coils had a different rating. We could as a 14 m anufacturer to say option three, or A and B is in this 15 g roup, and C and D is that group. Although, we'd have 16 t o figure out some way to describe it. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, it's complicated to do 18 t hat; right. 19 MR. FLY: But you could do that. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, you can give more 21 o ptions. This discussion is really about how you're 22 l imiting your ability to group things.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 234 1 MR. FLY: Well, how much flexibility you can 2 h ave, as opposed to how detailed you can get. 3 MR. DOPPEL: Well, I think that most 4 m anufacturers would agree that if they put an asterisk 5 i n the model number that that's an indication that 6 r ating does not matter. 7 MR. RIVEST: Rating does not matter? 8 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. It's the same. 9 MS. BARHYDT: It's not affected. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: It's all rated nothing. 11 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. Not that we don't care 12 w hat the rating is. 13 MR. RIVEST: It's either excluded or -- 14 MR. DOPPEL: It doesn't impact the rating. 15 MS. BARHYDT: It's not affected. 16 MR. RIVEST: -- or covered by the rating we 17 h ad published. 18 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, covered by the rating 19 p ublished. 20 MR. SACHS: So with that in mind, if we go 21 b ack two slides, I think it is, to the laundry list, 22 y es. Are you telling me that if it's in that model

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 235 1 g roup and it has, for example, coated coils, hale 2 g uards and other things that increase the pressure 3 d rop, it's still going to qualify as being a legal 4 p roduct of sale. 5 MR. AMRANE: That's why we want to exclude 6 t hose things. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Not necessarily. 8 MR. SACHS: I'm saying that this is now 9 p resented to me as a product based on a test that 10 e xcluded them. And now I've loaded it up and put a 11 t urbo charger on the fan motor. Is it still going to 12 p ass? 13 MR. RIVEST: The answer is we haven't done 14 t hat yet. 15 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that was the discussion 16 t hat we were having a the end of the last meeting, was 17 t he fact that the intent is to build a basic 18 r efrigeration system that meets the efficiencies that's 19 p ublished. And then pretty much everything that's on 20 t here is added for the convenience of the installation 21 s ite, whatever those requirements are. 22 MR. FLY: A requirement of the application.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 236 1 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, a requirement at the 2 a pplication site. 3 MR. SACHS: I don't want to say I'm just 4 a sking, but it does have implications in terms of how 5 t he law is written, I think. But I'm not a lawyer. 6 MR. AMRANE: It absolutely does. And that's 7 w hy we're having the discussion. Otherwise, we won't 8 b e having the discussion. 9 MR. SACHS: Well, I'll sit and wait with 10 b ated breath. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Same with evaporator coils? 12 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Just the UA? 14 MR. STEM: Well, as an outsider looking in, 15 i f you're going to expand the scope toward CREs that 16 P DA and adjusted volumes, it's the same metric as 17 f aceting for AC systems. So I mean, you can use the 18 s ame argument, I think. When it goes to public 19 c omment, you may get some feedback that you're 20 e xpanding one and you're limiting the other, and you're 21 g oing to get some negative feedback on that. That's my 22 o nly point.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 237 1 MS. BARHYDT: On this one the copper versus 2 a luminum, would you want to allow those to be in the 3 s ame basic model? 4 MR. FLY: If you adjust them so they had the 5 s ame -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: UA, possibly. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 8 MR. FLY: I don't know; is it UA? I'm not 9 s ure UA is -- well, I guess the (inaudible) what you're 10 t alking about. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, 12 r ight. So copper; it could be copper or aluminum. 13 MS. BARHYDT: As long as you maintain the UA. 14 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, same performance. 15 MS. BARHYDT: So it's all about the 16 p erformance, not the materials. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. And the same on the 18 c ondenser coil for that. This one we're taking out; 19 r ight? 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 21 MR. MARANTAN: I have a question just to be 22 c lear on the previous slide. Is there any other

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 238 1 p hysical descriptor that you might want to mention for 2 h aving a not same or comparable? 3 MR. WHITWELL: For coils? 4 MR. MARANTAN: Or is it simply performance of 5 t he component? For the coils, for example. 6 MR. WHITWELL: For coils. I don't know 7 s hould we, what about pressure drop? 8 MR. FLY: Pressure drop and UA kind of go 9 t ogether. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, because in the UAs we've 11 g ot that. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, right. 13 MR. FLY: So, I mean, if you're taking your 14 m icro channel coil and downsizing it so that it 15 o perates exactly like the copper coil, the same one, 16 y ou probably got more air flow and less service. But 17 y ou could make it match. 18 MR. MARANTAN: So you just want to leave it 19 o pen to be flexible? 20 MR. WHITWELL: Uh-huh. 21 MS. BARHYDT: What constitutes a comparable 22 a ir moving system?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 239 1 MR. AMRANE: Are we talking CFM here? 2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think so. I mean, 3 t hat's what's important, right; it'd be the air flow 4 s tatic, right, and energy consumption. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Fan in order. 7 MR. RIVEST: So there'd be some static 8 p ressure? 9 MR. DOPPEL: The external static pressure is 10 d efined per size. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, it's defined in the 12 t est, yeah. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: It's in the test standard. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 15 MR. FLY: And we're going to give you the CFM 16 f or that reading as part of the supplemental 17 i nformation. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Just go back and see what 20 p eople think about -- it sounds we're just talking 21 a bout performance on all these. So like as long as the 22 p erformance is comparable, can we put the word

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 240 1 p erformance somewhere in the submission, so that we 2 k now we're not talking about just a feature that's -- 3 MR. DOPPEL: But the test requirements call 4 f or the external static pressure at the test condition. 5 MS. BARHYDT: No, looking at the compressors, 6 t he coils. What we're hearing is that it's not so much 7 t he physical characteristics of the compressors or the 8 c oils. What we're really talking about is components 9 t hat have similar performance. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, same operating mass. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Right, because I -- 13 MR. RIVEST: It's the same amount of power 14 i nput. 15 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, I guess when we think 16 a bout it, we think a basic model as being as similar, 17 e ssentially the same capacity, cooling capacity and 18 e fficiency, right. And that's traditionally how we 19 w ould look at a basic model. 20 MR. AMRANE: So we could add that maybe. 21 MR. WHITWELL: And I think that's the reason 22 f or putting those things up there about, you're right,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 241 1 c omparable compressor, coils, et cetera, is because 2 i t's to get the same or comparable performance. 3 MR. DOPPEL: And I think maybe have a common 4 n et cooling capacity is too restrictive, and just make 5 i t common net. Take the net out and make it common 6 n ominal. 7 MR. FLY: Be careful with nominal. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Where? 9 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that would mean like a 10 MS. BARHYDT: Take out net? 11 MR. DOPPEL: If you say net nominal, then 12 i t's like 96,500. Yeah, and then down that same line 13 t ake the net, yeah. 14 MS. MEYERS: Hold on. 15 MR. FLY: In this case nominal really means 16 r ated; right? 17 MR. DOPPEL: Rated, yeah. 18 MS. BARHYDT: I heard yes and no. 19 MR. DOPPEL: It would be like nominal would 20 l ike 10, 15-phase system. 21 MS. MEYERS: Well, exactly ten, or? What are 22 y ou saying nominal?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 242 1 MR. DOPPEL: Nominal is like the ten ton. 2 MS. MEYERS: Well, exactly? 3 MR. DOPPEL: No. If you list it in your -- I 4 m ean, like a 3-10 residential system can be anywhere 5 f rom like, you know, 33's up to -- 6 MR. RIVEST: I just don't know if that's the 7 w ord, "nominal" is the right word. 8 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, I don't either. 9 MR. RIVEST: I know what you mean. 10 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 11 MS. MEYERS: I'm not sure "nominal," though. 12 I think I know what you think you mean by nominal, but 13 I don't know that the word, that word is -- 14 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that -- I mean, that's 15 w hat we have in the BRF definition. And that's what we 16 m ean with that is that it's the general capacity and 17 c haracteristic. Like generally, it's name a ten ton. 18 MR. RIVEST: It's the rounded number. 19 MR. DOPPEL: The rounded number. 20 MR. WHITWELL: But I think -- I mean, 21 b asically what it's saying is they don't all have to 22 h ave exactly the same face rating; right? So however

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 243 1 t hat wording is put in there -- 2 MR. RIVEST: We'll get the right term. 3 MR. DOPPEL: But a nine ton, all right -- 4 MS. MEYERS: But what is that term? 5 MR. DOPPEL: -- or a seven and a half 6 c ouldn't be in the same with a ten ton. Because 7 n ominally, it's not the same. 8 MR. RIVEST: I mean, providing that we have 9 y our database. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. And what you're saying 11 i s we're not all at 120,000 BTUH for those ten tons. 12 W e're anywhere from, dah, dah, dah, you know. What is 13 t hat; what's that term? 14 MS. MEYERS: I want to say that this is a 15 p retty common asterisk term. Can anyone get that term? 16 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, that's how in the 17 i ndustry we use the word "nominal," is to kind of 18 d escribe that range. 19 MR. RIVEST: An economist uses it different. 20 MR. DOPPEL: But they're wrong. 21 MR. RIVEST: Exactly. The nomination. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: But I'm not sure it's the right

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 244 1 w ord. 2 MS. MEYERS: But I think that's how we in the 3 i ndustry think of it. 4 MR. RIVEST: We can define it. 5 MS. BARHYDT: We can either define it, or 6 w e'll find someplace to reference the definition. 7 MS. MEYERS: Because I think it's important. 8 MR. WHITWELL: We're in agreement on what 9 w e're talking about; right? 10 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, okay. 11 MR. EISNER: This is probably a good time to 12 t ake a break. 13 MR. RIVEST: So, yeah, I think we'll pull the 14 i ndividual, the comments that you guys provided. The 15 c omment we got from -- I think it was (inaudible) 16 p rovided these. He said, you know, they're essentially 17 t he same, except his emphasis was on physical 18 d escriptions, whereas your descriptions were on how 19 t hings were used or what they're doing. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I think we were trying 21 t o provide input on what's the benefit in the 22 a pplication, right. That maybe it's not, maybe it

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 245 1 d oesn't pact deficiency, but there is some other 2 a dditional benefit in the application. 3 MR. RIVEST: Well, we're also looking for a 4 d efinition that would make it clear to someone that 5 t his is about what's being (inaudible). So if you say 6

- - Aris is going to walk it through. 7 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah, we can go through each 8 o ne one-by-one. But what we were looking for was maybe 9 s ome physical attributes that allow us to determine 10 w hat's in, what's out, based on what you had in mind 11 w hen you described this. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: So this is Jill from Trane. 13 A re you saying for an economizer we should say a damper 14 m otor linkage, those are the physical components, 15 s ensor and that kind of a definition, versus what its 16 p urpose is? Because there could be designs in the 17 f uture that don't use those things. And so I guess I 18 d on't really understand why if we describe it on what 19 w e know it to be today, technology, et cetera can take 20 i t in the future and it could maybe not be that. But 21 s till do the same purpose. 22 MR. RIVEST: I'm just relaying what he said.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 246 1 M aybe you can have that in mind as we go over the two 2 d efinitions. I mean, he did a description, you did a 3 d escription. We can look at them both maybe side-by4 s ide and see if we can put it together. 5 MR. EISNER: Is this a good time to take a 6 b reak? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 8 MR. EISNER: Why don't we take a ten-minute 9 b reak? 10 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 11 MR. EISNER: Can we get started? Can I have 12 e verybody's attention? I'm going to have Harvey yell 13 a t you again. 14 We talked at the beginning of the last hour 15 t o about whether you still have the right to comment on 16 a n NPRM. And I don't want to leave you with a 17 m isimpression. I read the ground rules to indicate 18 t hat you do have the right to comment on the NPRM. But 19 I want to make clear what I believe is also DOE's 20 p hilosophy to the extent that you can raise it during 21 t hese negotiations and discuss it in whatever detail is 22 n ecessary. That I think is better for you, and DOE

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 247 1 a grees. And they may still have time to make 2 a djustments before the notice of proposed rule-making 3 i s issued. So don't hold back concerns you have about 4 s omething we discussed subsequent to today that effects 5 w hat we've already agreed to. They still may be able 6 t o make adjustments and fix that document before it 7 g oes out. 8 So with that said, let's get onto the next 9 c hart we have up here. Somebody's going to explain 10 t his? 11 MR. MARANTAN: I can walk us through here. I 12 t hink one thing that might be useful is if we look at 13 w hat's on the screen up here, which is what you all 14 p repared, as well as the slide. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not trying to set us up, 16 b ut I don't know how well it's going to work. 17 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah, I'm just going to go off 18 t he slides in front of me for what we prepared in 19 a dvance, and that might give us a sense for what we 20 w ant to do here. And we'll start with the definition. 21 A nd this one is copper evaporator coils. And I 22 u nderstand that you also have condenser coils listed

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 248 1 t here as well. So maybe we could start with this 2 d efinition. Referring to air heat exchanger made using 3 c opper fins and copper tubes to reduce corrosion 4 r esulting from use of dissimilar metals used in 5 s tandard aluminum fin copper tube coils. What we had 6 p repared in advance is an indoor coil used in an air 7 c onditioner fabricated entirely of copper. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Maybe also outdoor. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 10 MR. MARANTAN: And outdoor, since we're 11 t alking about both. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: It could be indoor. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so instead of "copper 14 e vaporator coil," it should be "copper evaporator 15 a nd/or condenser coil," right. I think we can work 16 w ith the Power Point slides and just edit them as we 17 g o; right. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe. 20 MR. MARANTAN: So we have an indoor or 21 o utdoor coil used in an air conditioner, and fabricated 22 e ntirely of copper. So that would be the fins and the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 249 1 t ubes as you suggested. How does that sound? No other 2 a djustments? 3 MR. WHITWELL: No. 4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next item on the 5 s lide is what we want to get into next, is the impact 6 o n the test procedure. We characterize it as low. And 7 I see in your document you also characterize it as 8 p retty low. There's a one to three percent number. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, it really -- 10 MR. DOPPEL: Did we go over your definitions 11 o f low? 12 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, we got it here. 13 MR. MARANTAN: Okay, we can start there. All 14 r ight, slide 15, let's cover that. The low is up to 15 t wo percent. 16 MR. DOPPEL: Two percent of 00. 17 MR. WHITWELL: EER. 18 MR. MARANTAN: EER is what we're talking 19 a bout. 20 MR. DOPPEL: Or COP? 21 MR. MARANTAN: Right. Medium is two to ten 22 p ercent for each metric. And high is ten percent or

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 250 1 g reater. 2 MR. FLY: And remember the tolerance is five 3 p ercent. 4 MR. MARANTAN: Yes. 5 MR. FLY: So medium would be on the range of 6 t he power; is that a fact? 7 MR. MARANTAN: It would. Okay, so -- 8 MR. SACHS: But if one-sided, we're happy for 9 y ou to do better. 10 MS. JAKOBS: But if you had a manufacturing 11 p roblem that caused five percent error, that would be 12 o n top of it. So you could have a combination of 13 i ssues that would make you go past that. 14 MR. FLY: Or if you have multiple of these 15 t hey add up. 16 MS. JAKOBS: Right. 17 MR. WHITWELL: So some comments on impact of 18 t he test procedure. It really is going to vary 19 d epending on the approach the manufacturer takes. The 20 m anufacturer could do a direct substitution of copper 21 f in for aluminum fin. And because the better thermal 22 c ontinuity of the copper perhaps get better

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 251 1 p erformance. Or they can change the fin count, for 2 e xample, the number of fins per inch. Reduce that with 3 t he copper and get equivalent performance. Or in some 4 c ases, it might actually be a little bit lower, if they 5 h ave enhanced fins in the aluminum fin coil. They may 6 n eed to eliminate the enhancements in the fin, because 7 t he copper fin is going to cause the fin die to wear 8 v ery quickly. And they may, and so for that reason 9 t hey might take the enhancements out of the fin and you 10 c ould actually have a performance decrease. But 11 a nyway, the impact's going to be on the low side, based 12 o n the previous slide. It could be a slight benefit to 13 a slight negative impact. 14 MR. MARANTAN: I'd like to also cover a 15 c ouple of these discussion points for each slide. So 16 o ne of the things we need to discuss is the need for 17 t he exclusion, the relative volume and more efficient 18 a lterative. So if you have thoughts on that. 19 MR. WHITWELL: So under need for exclusion a 20 r eason for excluding it would be the fact that it 21 p revents corrosion in certain environments. Seacoast 22 a pplications and industrial environments where you have

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 252 1 c hemicals in the air that could cause corrosion of the 2 a luminum fins. So although it has -- 3 MR. DOPPEL: It could be either indoor or 4 o utdoor. 5 MR. WHITWELL: It could be indoor or outdoor. 6 S o although it might have a negative impact at the test 7 c ondition, it's going to allow the equipment to run at 8 a higher efficiency level over the life of the product. 9 MR. FLY: So this is Mark Fly with AAON. 10 W hat's DOE's take on relative volume? How are you guys 11 v iewing this? Because this is a relatively low volume 12 p roduct I think for most everybody. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: They're very expensive. 14 MR. FLY: They're very expensive and they've 15 v ery low volume. And we're going to run into that 16 t hrough several of these items. So there's a 17 j ustification of, you know, there's a cost of me 18 l isting it as a separate model group. Which if I don't 19 h ave an inclusion and I feel like there's a big enough 20 i mpact if I create a new model for it, and there's a 21 c ost, then that's going to eliminate it basically from 22 t he market. Because the cost, the volume won't justify

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 253 1 t he cost. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Well this -- 3 MR. FLY: And there always is a cost to 4 l isting, whether it's testing, or exposure to testing, 5 o r just maintaining the paper. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 7 MR. SACHS: How would you recommend it be 8 h andle? 9 MR. FLY: Well, I think most of the 10 m anufacturers would like for very low volume things to 11 b e excluded. You know, that's really -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: There's nothing in the statutes 13 t hat excludes low volume. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm sorry? 15 MS. BARHYDT: There's nothing in the statute 16 t hat excludes low volume. I mean, we routinely get 17 r equests from manufacturers who say I only produce low 18 v olume products. And the statute doesn't have a low 19 v olume exclusions. There are some statutes across the 20 g overnment that have that have that kind of an 21 e xclusion and EPA doesn't. 22 MR. FLY: Too bad.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 254 1 MR. SACHS: Laura. Stress is holding -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: For instance, on this 3 p articular thing I looked at, sales last year less than 4 o ne percent. In fact, significantly less than one 5 p ercent in this specific one. 6 MS. BARHYDT: And you've said that the 7 v ariability is two percent or less. And you have a 8 f ive percent -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I'm just saying the 10 i nclusion of this option. 11 MR. SACHS: Well, zero to two. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm sorry; I'm just saying the 13 i nclusion of a copper evaporator condenser coil or that 14 o ption on our product. 15 MR. HURST: So it shouldn't be base on the 16 p roduct, it should be based on -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: That's what I'm talking about 18 l ow volume. 19 MR. HURST: What it does test. That's what 20 y ou're saying; right? 21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 22 MR. HURST: It shouldn't be based on volume.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 255 1 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 2 MS. JAKOBS: So then down the road if you 3 i nstallation were, that would be a problem, it fail 4 o ver a year. We could say excel a replacement part 5 t hat was copper for when they repair it and then it 6 w ould go on. 7 MS. BARHYDT: But I don't understand why you 8 w ouldn't sell them the copper coil. That's what I'm 9 m issing is the -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: Well, the issue is that this 11 h as low impact, other options have low impact, but 12 q uite often multiple options, or normally you have 13 m ultiple options that are sold on a particular unit. 14 MS. JAKOBS: That's the norm. 15 MR. WHITWELL: So the one percent add up. 16 MR. FLY: For instance, if you're going into 17 a swimming pool environment very often it's a copper 18 c oil and a reheat coil. 19 MS. MEYERS: And most of these actually 20 i ncrease the installing. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Only one at a time. What were 22 y ou were you saying, Mark?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 256 1 MR. FLY: I said when you're going into say a 2 s wimming pool, the auditorium environment, or one of 3 t he adjacent areas, many times they'll want a copper 4 c oil and they want a reheat coil, because it's a 5 d ehumidification. So now, I've got two options on my 6 l ist and I'm getting closer to my -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: And get chlorine in the air, so 8 t herefore you've got caustic environment, dissimilar 9 m etals, chlorine disintegrates. 10 MS. BARHYDT: And Karen, what were you 11 s aying? 12 MS. MEYERS: Well, I'm saying most of these 13 o ptions increase the installed efficiency of the unit, 14 b ut they're a negative on the test procedure. 15 MR. RIVEST: But can I speak? So some of 16 t hese things are pretty clear cut. You have a basic 17 m odel, it has a refrigeration system, including coils, 18 c ompressor. And we're adding a part in there that's 19 c reating a restriction of flow, and that's clearly 20 s omething you're adding in there. Here's you're 21 t alking about something that's integral to the 22 r efrigeration system. Why can't you just make it

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 257 1 e fficient enough to meet the standard? Because it's not 2 l ike you say, so if you were to just use the same 3 d esign of this thing you would achieve the efficiency. 4 S o you're not achieving it just because you're backing 5 o ff on the service. So this is probably one of the 6 m ore, quote, difficult contentious ones. 7 MR. WHITWELL: I agree. 8 MR. RIVEST: And we're starting right away. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I know, I agree. 10 A bsolutely. 11 MR. RIVEST: There's a lot of others we could 12 j ust say -- 13 MR. WHITWELL: It happened to be first on the 14 l ist. 15 MR. RIVEST: And that and the coating, you 16 k now, in the coating there's more of a rationale, 17 b ecause you're already making the core of the coil, so 18 y ou can dip it and you get -- 19 MR. WHITWELL: The coating doesn't have 20 h igher better thermal connectivity; right? It's not 21 l ike you're substituting. When you're substituting 22 c opper for aluminum things get better, right, if

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 258 1 e verything is -- 2 MR. RIVEST: Everything else being the same. 3 A nd then, you know, pushing this to the limit, if every 4 s ystem with a coil, with a copper coil -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: This is not the number one on 6 m y list that I would argue for by far. This is way 7 d own there. 8 MR. RIVEST: Right. I'm just sort of having 9 t his conversation so you see how, you know, Ashley and 10 m e have been talking. Like if all else is the same and 11 w e can buy the other one that's identical except for 12 t hat option, then it's easier to say, yeah, sure. But 13 w here here you're talking about a coil that's designed 14 s pecifically for this unit, it's harder to get it. 15 MR. WHITWELL: I agree. 16 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly from AAON. I 17 t hink we put, you know, we as, when the manufacturer 18 g ot it, we threw a lot of things out here. Some of 19 t hem probably not all of us know everything about, and 20 w e compiled a list for discussion. So I think this is 21 a negotiation and things are negotiable, to some 22 e xtent. So I can't say that everything on this list

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 259 1 t hat we all feel passionate about is one way or the 2 o ther. There probably are things on here that 3 i ndividuals, or maybe a big group of us are passionate 4 a bout. So I don't want to leave the impression that we 5 t ried to get as much stuff on here as we could think 6 a bout in the short time we had to think about it. Our 7 g reatest fear is we've left something big off that's 8 g oing to come up tomorrow. 9 MR. EISNER: If you can't consider exempting 10 i t from the statute, or excluding it from the statute 11 b ecause of the terms of the statute, are there ways you 12 c an handle it when you think it is a valuable addition 13 t o the product and will improve the lifetime 14 e fficiency. 15 MR. FLY: I think I can answer that. If 16 t here was a rulemaking and we created a product class 17 f or corrosive environments, then it would have its own 18 c ost efficiency curve. So, because it's copper, the 19 i ncremental cost of efficiency may be greater than if 20 i t was aluminum, for example. And therefore, that 21 w ould result in a lower standard for lack of a product 22 c lass. That would be a way of handling that. It would

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 260 1 b e a way of handling also the coated coatings. 2 Now, we are in the middle of rulemaking now. 3 S o it's something we could actually look at now as 4 w ell. Just defining the class not as copper coils, but 5 a s some utility to the customer. In this case, 6 c orrosion resistance. But there are parallels with 7 w eatherized furnaces, for example. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Do you have any -- I'm sorry, 9 M ike. Do you have any authority under the statute to 10 g ive credits for the addition of products that will 11 i mprove the lifetime efficiency? 12 MR. FLY: It's not a credit; it's just part 13 o f the analysis with the lifetime of a product like 14 t hat. 15 MR. WHITWELL: So you'd evaluate it in a 16 d ifferent way. 17 MR. FLY: Yeah, you'd just evaluate it 18 s eparately. And end up in a different place probably. 19 MR. EISNER: Would that satisfy your 20 c oncerns? 21 MR. AMRANE: Well, again, it means that you 22 a re going to establish a lot of product classes that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 261 1 w ay. 2 MR. FLY: Well, we're at number one. 3 MR. AMRANE: Okay, number one, yeah. Do you 4 s ee the list? 5 MR. FLY: I told you this is a real tough 6 o ne. 7 MR. EISNER: And again, I'm not an engineer, 8 o ne who knows nothing about this. There's some lawyers 9 i n here who know more than I do, obviously. Can you, 10 i nstead of requiring more product classes, can you 11 s imply have a part of the rule that gives credits for 12 t hings that improve lifetime efficiency to make up for 13 t he loss initially? 14 MR. FLY: Not the way you would credit, no. 15 MR. EISNER: Well, is there a way that you 16 c ould describe it in another way that would allow it? 17 MR. FLY: The answer is we've thought about 18 t his. 19 MR. EISNER: Okay. 20 MR. FLY: The appropriate way would be the 21 w ay we discussed. You know, no modification to the 22 t est procedure would result in giving credit on the way

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 262 1 t he test procedure is done. Not over a life. 2 MR. SACHS: For a little bit of context, my 3 o wn sense of the scenario is that everybody's been 4 i nterested in a slightly different way that we really 5 h ave no -- all of these tests are on new products as 6 r eady to be shipped. And there's very little knowledge 7 p ublically available on performance degradation over 8 t he life of a product, with or without a special heat 9 e xchanger, or anything else. So getting into that 10 w ould open the door to much broader discussions of 11 f ield performance degradation over time, and early 12 r eplacements, and all sorts of other things that I 13 t hink everyone has been a little afraid of opening that 14 p articular box. 15 MR. EISNER: For another meeting. 16 MR. MARANTAN: So we have relative volume in 17 h ere. And I heard mentioned by somebody that less one 18 p ercent was -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: This was just last year. This 20 i s Jill from Trane. I just looked at what we sold last 21 y ear. So it was all our total volume in this product 22 c lass, it was significantly less than one percent. And

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 263 1 t hey're going to tell you it's because of cost. It's 2 f our times -- I mean, it's four to five times more 3 e xpensive. So it's because of cost. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Did anyone else look at their 5 n umber? 6 MR. WHITWELL: I don't have that for copper 7 s pecifically. But it would be a small number. 8 MS. BARHYDT: So close, if not. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think so. 10 MR. TUCKER: Lennox would be the same. 11 MR. MARANTAN: You can put four to five times 12 t he cost. Okay, we discussed the options for new 13 p roduct classes. And I take it that the test procedure 14 m odifications in this case would be not applicable. Is 15 t hat fair? 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay, so that's copper, 18 e vaporator and condenser coils. 19 Is there any other comments on this? 20 C harles. 21 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, Drew 22 M anufacturing. Aren't there also some specialty

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 264 1 e xclusions in this category for hospitals and a few 2 o ther things? 3 MS. BARHYDT: Commercial refrigeration 4 e quipment have -- 5 MR. HON: No, air conditioning. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: HVAC? 7 MR. HON: HVAC. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Of copper? 9 MR. HON: Even like special filtration 10 s ystems, or anything else like that. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, we haven't gotten to 12 t hose topics. We're just focused on this particular. 13 MR. MARANTAN: That comes later, one of the 14 l ater slides. 15 MR. HON: Okay. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: What's options for future TP? 17 MR. WHITWELL: Test procedure. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Test, okay. Got it. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Toilet paper. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, exactly. 21 MR. MARANTAN: The next one is correction 22 c apacitors, which was brought up last time. Oh, sorry

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 265 1 i t's -- 2 MR. EISNER: Slide 18. 3 MS. BARHYDT: No, it should be like -- 4 MR. MARANTAN: It should be slide 18. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, but you deleted one 6 e arlier. 7 MR. MARANTAN: You can search for it. 8 MR. EISNER: It's just before economizers in 9 t he -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it's just a little -- 11 MR. MARANTAN: There it is. Okay, correction 12 c apacitors. So I'll read off the definition on the 13 s lide. A capacitor that increases the power factor 14 m easured at the line connection to the equipment. 15 P ower factor is defined as electrical power, electrical 16 p ower input divided by the power, the product, the 17 v oltage and current, all quantities evaluated on a root 18 a nd squared basis, integrating over a power supply 19 c ycle. The definition you provided was power 20 c orrection capacitors are used to correct the phase 21 s hift between current and voltage caused by inductive 22 l oads, such as motors.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 266 1 MR. FLY: So either definition is fine. 2 MR. WHITWELL: These are where you have DFDs; 3 r ight? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not electrical. 5 MR. FLY: No, actually -- I mean, I wrote 6 t his section so I can talk about it a little bit. The 7 d efinition, power correction capacitors typically get 8 a pplied at the request of the building owners. If we 9 g o down there and look at more efficient alternatives, 10 t he more efficient alterative is for them to put a 11 b igger transformer on the building. That is not very 12 p opular. And I have no control over that whatsoever. 13 S o I mean, typically -- I mean, some of the utility 14 g uys help me out here, because I'm not electrical. 15 MR. MYERS: No, we don't want to. 16 MR. FLY: There is a loss in them, because 17 n othing is 100 percent efficient, and they do generate 18 s ome heat, and it's fairly low, I think as you noted. 19 T hey are also a very relatively small option. And if 20 w e took it out, somebody would probably put the power 21 c orrection capacitors in a box right outside of our 22 u nit, rather than inside our unit. So whether we put

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 267 1 t hem in or take them out, it isn't probably going to 2 c hange the fact that they will get applied, because 3 n obody wants to buy the multi $100,000 transformer to 4 r eplace the multi $100 power crashing capacitors. 5 MR. RIVEST: Can I ask just a few questions? 6 T he capacitors would be connected to a motor or to the 7 l ine. 8 MR. FLY: Typically the line. 9 MR. RIVEST: The line. And it doesn't need 10 t o be measured during the test procedure; right? I 11 m ean, it would be possible to make them on the other 12 s ide of the line? 13 MR. FLY: Yes, you could. 14 MR. RIVEST: So could we just specify that in 15 t he test procedure that if there's a capacitor present 16 t hat it should be -- 17 MR. FLY: They go downstream of the capacitor 18 a nd -- 19 MR. RIVEST: Is that a possibility? 20 MR. FLY: Yeah, in the power correction that 21 t hey make is what the electrical engineers called 22 a pparent power versus the real power. And the power

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 268 1 u nit leaders that we use to measure by the test 2 p rocedure -- 3 MR. RIVEST: Are watts. 4 MR. FLY: Well, they get the real power. 5 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, okay. 6 MR. FLY: You know, they look at the whole 7 w ave form of the current, and the whole form of the 8 v oltage and integrate over the whole thing and get the 9 r ight power. If you just put a clamp on meter on it 10 y ou would get a different reading, because there's a 11 s hift and it causes the current to look high. 12 MR. RIVEST: I don't think there's big issue 13 h ere. 14 MR. FLY: I don't think there's a big issue 15 h ere. And if we can modify the test procedure and the 16 d ownstream of it, I think that would probably be the 17 a ppropriate response. 18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Aren't 19 t here some applications -- I'm not familiar with this 20 p articular product class, but there are some 21 a pplications where those capacitors are actually put at 22 t he motor, as opposed to in the line. Because it's the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 269 1 m otor load that causes your demand factor to go up. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, in the chillers and stuff 3 I 've seen that happen. But I don't know that I've seen 4 i t in this stuff. In chillers, I have. In the control 5 p anel of the chillers. 6 MR. MYERS: Yeah. I mean, the bigger the 7 m otor, the more likely it is to be at the motor instead 8 o f on the line. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: But the chillers aren't a 10 c overed class here, so -- 11 MR. FLY: But here again, you would have to, 12 y ou know, if they're included, are they an asterisk or 13 n ot an asterisk, or if they're not an asterisk -- I 14 m ean, I think it's really not an asterisk, it's usually 15 a special -- 16 MR. RIVEST: I think there's acknowledgment 17 t hat if it adds load without, you know, if there are 18 l osses in there. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 20 MR. RIVEST: And it is an added utility to 21 t he client. It corrects their power factor. They have 22 t o maintain a certain power factor (inaudible). But

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 270 1 t here's no benefit in the test procedure, because it's 2 m easuring real power. So whether DOE's preference 3 w ould always be to come up with a test procedure fix -- 4 b ecause that way you don't have to check that there's 5 a ctually a unit, a base unit that's identical in every 6 o ther way. You buy it. If it's there, you test it, 7 g etting around it. Otherwise, you have to make sure, if 8 i t's an exclusion, that there is the identical unit 9 t hat is being produced. It's not a big deal in this 10 c ase. 11 MR. WHITWELL: So what is the approach, then; 12 i s it that this is excluded until a test procedure 13 c hange can be made? 14 MR. RIVEST: I think that's a good idea. 15 MS. BARHYDT: I think that we can do that. 16 MR. BALLOW: I'm just wondering why we would 17 n eed to do it that way instead of just proposing that 18 t o modify the test procedure to say that there is 19 c orrection capacitors installed on the equipment, 20 t hey'd be bypassed or -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: No, the test procedure takes a 22 w hile to get final. But the idea is that it'll be

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 271 1 e xcluded up until we get the test procedure to deal 2 w ith it. But, no, the suggestion is to actually deal 3 w ith it in the test procedure. 4 MR. BALLOW: Okay, I didn't see why this 5 r ulemaking, you know, why the NOPR couldn't just also 6 a ddress the test procedure. It's just a simple -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, to modify the test 8 p rocedure at the same time? 9 MR. BALLOW: One paragraph, you know, or a 10 t wo- sentence thing. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Ashley kept saying we couldn't 12 d o it in a test procedure here. 13 MR. AMRANE: There are other things in test 14 p rocedures. 15 MR. MYERS: Yeah, that can get complicated. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. And I expect there's 17 g oing to be others; right? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. I mean, this is Jill 19 f rom 20 Trane. That's the point I made before: the 21 D epartment can be very slow in adopting new test 22 p rocedures. So literally, we can out of here as

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 272 1 m embers of AHRI and change the test procedure very 2 f ast. But that doesn't mean that they've adopted it. 3 A nd every time I would -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: They're getting faster. 5 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: So, you know, and every time I 7 w ould say that and Ashley would always say, "But test 8 p rocedure is not part of our scope. That's not here." 9 S o that's all I'm saying is I didn't think we could. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Modifying the test procedure 11 t riggers all the statutory provisions. And so I think 12 w e'd rather do that in a separate rulemaking than this 13 o ne. 14 MR. MARANTAN: Okay, so we have on the slide 15 m odified test procedure to measure power downstream of 16 a capacitor. That's an idea for the test procedure 17 m odification. 18 MR. MYERS: There was some suggestion that it 19 m ight be bypass. Because if there happens to be a 20 p ackaged air conditioner where someone chooses to mount 21 t he capacitors at the motor, then it gets much more 22 d ifficult to do a downstream, because the balance of

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 273 1 t he power is not going -- 2 MR. RIVEST: You mean it could be 3 d isconnected? 4 MR. MYERS: Pardon? 5 MR. RIVEST: Disconnected. 6 MR. MYERS: Disconnected, right. Something 7 l ike that, as opposed to -- 8 MR. MARANTAN: Or disconnected, how about 9 t hat? 10 MR. MYERS: Disconnected, sure. 11 MR. FLY: Can we put this one to bed and say 12 t his is an exclusion until we change the test 13 p rocedure? Or are we at that point where we're just 14 g oing to go through them all and then go back there? 15 MS. BARHYDT: Let's go through all of them, 16 a nd then we can kind of categorize and see what we've 17 c ome up with. 18 MR. FLY: Okay. 19 MR. MARANTAN: Are we okay with the 20 d efinition? 21 MR. MYERS: I think so. 22 MR. FLY: Either mine or yours is fine.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 274 1 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. 2 The next one is economizers. So the 3 d efinition on the slide, "an assembly with dampers and 4 m eans to automatically set the dampers in multiple or 5 c ontinuously variable positions in order to adjust the 6 m ix of building return and outdoor air entering the 7 e quipment from zero percent outdoor air to X percent 8 o utdoor air." So you can see here, we tried to make it 9 g eneric. And maybe that can take care of some of the 10 t echnologies that may be coming in the future. Let me 11 s ee what you have. Economizers. This is one where we 12 s aw that the economizer definition you provided just 13 s peaks to the function of the economizer. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. I 15 g uess I have a problem in that the future technology 16 m ay not use dampers. So why are we locking ourselves 17 i nto the technology or, you know, a physical thing? 18 Y ou could use bladders. You could use, you know, all 19 d ifferent kinds of things. I'm not saying we're there. 20 I 'm just saying that this can be achieved in different 21 w ays, and it doesn't have to be dampers, motors, 22 c ontactors.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 275 1 MR. MYERS: A device. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 3 MR. MYERS: We can device that. 4 MR. MARANTAN: A device? 5 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Bob Whitwell from 6 C arrier. You can also have water economizers. Which 7 i s taking advantage of water, cool water you might have 8 f rom a cooling tower. So they're not always air 9 e conomizers. 10 MR. EISNER: So use "devices" in place of 11 " dampers." 12 MR. AMRANE: I think it's fine; I think 13 y ou're not talking about water or air economizer. I 14 t hink it brings outside air. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 16 MR. AMRANE: I mean, the way it's written. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so maybe we have to have 18 t hat as a separate definition. 19 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, it's a different number. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 21 MR. MARANTAN: Okay, so perhaps a device. 22 MR. EISNER: Remove dampers?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 276 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Set the dampers. 2 MR. AMRANE: Did you get a look at the actual 3 d efinition? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: So I'm going to accept the 5 d ampers? 6 MR. MARANTAN: I'm not sure 7 MR. EISNER: I think that, yeah. 8 MR. DOPPEL: It automatically controls. 9 MR. EISNER: It automatically controls the 10 m ix. 11 MR. SACHS: You can take everything out 12 b etween that. 13 MR. DOPPEL: Automatically adjusts the mix. 14 D oes that work? 15 MR. SACHS: The device doesn't have to be 16 a utomatic. The device and its controls both are. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Which means -- 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so it means to adjust; I 19 m ean, right? 20 MR. FLY: So leave "automatic"? 21 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know. 22 MR. DOPPEL: "Device" means to adjust the --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 277 1 MR. RIVEST: "Automatically" is kind of 2 i mportant there. 3 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay, the second part of this 5 s entence, this definition, we have "XX" here for the 6 p ercent of outdoor air. And maybe that's something we 7 n eed to think about here. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: It's all dependent -- 9 MR. MARANTAN: The thinking is that we want 10 t o try to make sure that, you know, it's effective, or 11 y ou don't have anything that's just not working well. 12 S o do you want a range here specified, zero to X? 13 MR. FLY: And they can go up to 100 percent. 14 MR. MARANTAN: It can go to 100. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: It can, but again, it's all in 16 y our effective range of enthalpy, dry-bulb, all the 17 p arameters of outside conditions and inside conditions. 18 S o, demanding a percentage doesn't seem right to me, 19 w hen they are making a decision based on what's 20 a vailable at the unit conditions. 21 MR. SACHS: The zero percent is troubling 22 a lso for many applications. I'd like to be able to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 278 1 h ave the equipment providing minimum for any 2 c onditions. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And some applications 4 i n actuary is going to say that. I would agree, 5 H arvey. 6 MR. SACHS: What happens if we just terminate 7 a fter the word "equipment"? 8 MARSHALL HUNT: Yeah, that's what it is. 9 A ctually, in other building codes, you know, with that. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, are taking into one that 11 s hould be in one; that shouldn't be for the building 12 u se and all that. 13 MR. STEM: It's the industry definition, 14 i sn't it, to eliminate the mechanical tools at the end 15 o f it? 16 MR. STANONIK: Greenwood's going to look it 17 u p. 18 MR. STEM: Produce or eliminate. 19 MR. STANONIK: I was wondering the same 20 t hing. And the purpose of the economizer is to reduce 21 y our cooling load; right? 22 MR. STEM: Do you want the 90.1 definition?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 279 1 MR. EISNER: Yeah. 2 MR. STEM: "A duct and damper arrangement and 3 a utomatic control system that together allow cooling 4 s ystems to supply outdoor air to reduce or eliminate 5 t he need for mechanical cooling during milder cold 6 w eather." Ducts and damper. 7 MR. RIVEST: It has ducts and damper. 8 MR. STEM: You can say -- 9 MR. WHITWELL: Well, you can take -- 10 MR. STEM: -- a device arrangement, and then 11 k eep the rest of it. Do you want that? 12 MS. MEYERS: I like his definition better. 13 I t's more reflective of -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: I think it's not "eliminate 15 t he need," but it's to "reduce the need" for mechanical 16 c ooling. Because it's not going to totally eliminate 17 i t. It depends on the conditions; right? 18 MR. DOPPEL: That's kind of awkward wording 19 a nyway. Because I mean, what you're doing is you're 20 t aking advantage of outside conditions. 21 MR. STANONIK: He got it on his phone. We're 22 p utting it up there right now, the definition.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 280 1 MR. AMRANE: Oh, I have it here, yeah. 2 MR. AMRANE: Oh, yeah, I have it here, yeah. 3 S o you want to read it? I have it here if you want to 4 r ead it. 5 MR. WHITWELL: And so you reduce the need, 6 r educe -- 7 MR. DOPPEL: How about to take advantage of 8 f avorable outside outdoor air conditions? Make -- make 9 i t a positive instead of a negative. 10 MR. SACHS: All right. So if you just take 11 o ut duct -- duct and damper arrangement and just -- and 12 l eave it as an automatic system that includes the words 13 d evice bifurcation. Automatic system controls not 14 n eeded. It actually not only allows, it enables. 15 W ell, it said they wanted the word "automatic" in 16 t here. 17 MR. MARANTAN: And another thing I notice is 18 t hat in the document you provided you have a -- an ESP 19 e stimate, but we characterize it as low impact on EER. 20 I didn't see one in your document. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Just said it, yes. 22 MR. STEM: I think it's a lot more.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 281 1 MS. HOOTMAN: I -- I mean, I wrote it. I 2 j ust basically say what might happen at the static 3 p ressure loss. And so, you know, the problem becomes 4 a nd we have a very low static pressure in the test 5 p rocedure in the smaller units, when you start to get 6 i nto the larger units, this becomes a little less 7 s ignificant as it does in the smaller units. So again, 8 y ou could say it in a range, 1 percent of -- oh, God, 9 w here are we at, Ms. Marlin's -- static, 2. So this 10 5 0 percent affect on. That's a large effect. 11 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, but it's only the 12 (inaudible) 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, but, you know, when you 14 t hrow it off by a couple watts then you're ER can 15 r eally throw off. 16 MR. SACHS: So, Jill, I'm hearing your 17 r ecommendation for a test procedure provision increase 18 t he static on small units. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: No. I don't think the test 20 l abs can do it. 21 MR. AMRANE: We cannot test for -- for that. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't think test labs are

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 282 1 g oing to be able to do it. They'd have to build 2 u pwards of - 3 MR. AMRANE: 8067. We don't get for sure. 4 MR. SACHS: But that's okay. The equipment 5 d oes. 6 MR. WHITWELL: So it's probably in the 7 p ercent range, yeah. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Probably in the 3 percent 9 r ange. 10 MR. WHITWELL: About 3 percent on the smaller 11 s izes and decreasing as you go up in capacity. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 13 MR. STEM: What about the -- you know, you 14 t alk about enthalpy, what about the -- the leakage, you 15 k now, at the higher temperature tropical climates on 16 t he standard rating test at 95 if, you had one that had 17

- - had a rough time in shipping? 18 MR. FLY: Well, thankfully, we actually have 19

- - 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, you wouldn't -- 21 MR. FLY: -- air dampers that covers that. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: On leakage, you wouldn't have

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 283 1 t his open. You wouldn't have the damper blades. 2 MR. STEM: But it leaks. 3 MR. FLY: But that's what I'm saying, if it 4 h ad a rough time in shipping and you had some blades 5 d amaged, at 95 degrees, you're going to have some 6 l eakage. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, okay. I see what -- 8 MR. FLY: And it's going to really kill -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: You're saying. Okay. 10 MR. FLY: -- your efficiency, so -- 11 MALE SPEAKER: Any leakage there. 12 MR. FLY: Yeah. 13 MALE SPEAKER: Because you're on the outside, 14 r ight. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a killer. 16 MR. STEM: I mean, typically, because we're 17 g oing run a -- we're going to run a standard rating 18 t est on a unit that has an economizer. We try to pull 19 i t off, seal it up, remove it from the building to 20 e liminate any issues, so -- 21 MR. HUNT: So this is Marshall. I'm PG&E. 22 W e're looking at economizers that are bolt on, and

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 284 1 w e're looking at economizers that fit inside the box. 2 MR. DOPPEL: Integral part of the -- 3 MR. FLY: Factory integral. 4 MR. STEM: These are factory installed. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Factory installed. It's just 6 p art of the unit. 7 MR. MARANTAN: Hey, how about relative volume 8 o f products. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, high. High. 10 MR. AMRANE: It's almost required on all of 11 t hem. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: High. Code says -- 13 MR. AMRANE: I mean, people. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: -- you got to be there, it's 15 r equired. Except for humid conditions. I mean, 16 t here's really -- as long as the climate zones -- 17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. How about test 18 p rocedure modifications? That's -- that should be on. 19 MR. AMRANE: Well, the 8067 degrees return 20 d oes not -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: It would22 MR. AMRANE: -- is not suitable.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 285 1 MS. HOOTMAN: It would not be -- at 8067 2 r eturn and 95 outdoors, It would not be okay to 3 e conomize. 4 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. You cannot economize 5 w ith those temperatures. So -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: It would mean changing every 7 t est room in the industry in order to be able to have - 8

- I think it would need three chambers. 9 MR. FLY: Build new buildings. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Right. So you could have -- 11 y ou could have the -- well, no. I guess you'd just 12 p ull the outdoor air in the indoor side. I mean, it's 13

- - 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, but can every single one 15 o f those test rooms pull outdoor air -- 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: -- in a reliable condition? 18 MR. WHITWELL: Right. That's right. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: And could -- you know -- 20 MR. DOPPEL: We can, but most can't. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: So it's a modification to every 22 s ingle test room in the industry.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 286 1 MR. AMRANE: And then how would you control 2 o utdoor air, too? You know, I think you're right. 3 MR. WHITWELL: You would need another code 4 t ester or something, I guess. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: And then it's abducted to it so 6 t hen it has resistance. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Can you now modify the test 8 p rocedure to take it out of the -- 9 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, you need another code 10 t ester. 11 MALE SPEAKER: That's what I was thinking. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Without it? 13 MALE SPEAKER: There's a way you can seal it 14 u p. 15 MS. MEYERS: I mean, it depends on how good 16 t hey seal it up. And that could be an integral part of 17 t he system that can be sometimes difficult to achieve. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Difficult to do. 19 MS. MEYERS: And then you turn into the 20 s ystem and, you know, who knows else happens while 21 t hey're trying to do that. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Is there a way to measure

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 287 1 i mpact and then credit that back in the test procedure? 2 I s there -- 3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, this is a case -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, think -- think about 5 a ll the different ways you could -- 6 MR. FLY: Yeah. 7 MR. WHITWELL: So Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 8 T his is a case where you could order the equipment 9 w ithout the economizer from the manufacturer. It's 10 a vailable with or without. Because there are some -- 11 y ou know, some areas, like in Florida, you're not going 12 t o -- you're not going to ship an economizer to 13 F lorida. So they might want all the other options but 14 n ot an economizer. So it's available. 15 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Could 16

- - could the standard say that for units with 17 e conomizers, the economizer shall be removed or -- 18 MR. FLY: No. No, because you -- you can't 19 r emove it. 20 MR. WHITWELL: It'd be hard to remove. 21 MS. MEYERS: I think all of ours -- and, 22 D iane, correct me if I am wrong -- but I think, you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 288 1 k now, all of our package units, the economizer is an 2 o ption on all of them. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 4 MS. MEYERS: And you can always order it 5 w ithout the economizer. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 7 MR. MYERS: Frank, I think everybody's saying 8 t hat. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: I think everybody -- I can't 10 t hink of anybody who wouldn't because of the -- like 11 B ob said, the Florida's, some of us have independent 12 d istribution. They -- you know, let the independents 13 p ut them in. You know, stocking, all those kind of 14 t hings, so. 15 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI 16 a gain. That's -- that's kind of why I was saying that 17 i f you -- if the standard says, if it has one, you'll 18 r emove it, wouldn't anybody that's running a test for 19 t he standard say, I'll order the one without? 20 MS. JAKOBS: But if you were trying to make 21 t he whole system work better, you would make it -- I 22 m ean, the bolt on/bolt off, that's the easiest thing.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 289 1 B ut that probably works the least well -- XX 2 ( 2:41:33.7) English would be. But the more integrated 3 i t is and the better things seal up, that would make it 4 h arder to dismantle. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Can't just look -- 6 MR. AMRANE: But why are we doing all this? 7 B ecause we are putting this in writing mainly for DOE. 8 R ight? And this is what we're doing. So why don't you 9

- - if DOE wants to test a unit, DOE can test a unit 10 w ithout the economizer and be done. 11 MS. BARHYDT: So on the other -- the flip 12 s ide, if DOE did want to account for the energy impact 13 o f the economizer -- 14 MR. AMRANE: Oh, that's a different issue 15 t hen. That's a different discussion. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 17 MR. FLY: You require test procedure. 18 MR. AMRANE: That's -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: Then it needs a test procedure 20

- - test -- test procedure change. 21 MR. FLY: And -- and it's really a part load 22 m etric because it doesn't run at full.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 290 1 MR. AMRANE: Right. So it's a different 2 d iscussion. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So for the test 5 p rocedure modification, is it fair to say that this is 6 d ifficult? 7 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 8 MR. MARANTAN: We're not ruling it out 9 t hough? 10 MR. AMRANE: You can if you want to. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: With enough time and money, 12 a nything's possible. 13 MR. SACHS: I think it belongs in the class 14 o f things for which engineering information will be 15 m ore important than minimum standards. 16 MS. MEYERS: It's not just a test procedure 17 m odification, it's an efficiency measuring 18 m odification. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So it's a product class issue 20 a s well. 21 MS. MEYERS: So yeah, because this is -- 22 y ou're talking, like they said, part load. So this is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 291 1 m uch more than a test procedure modification. 2 MR. AMRANE: It's not -- yeah, it's not even 3 t he part load that we have today. 4 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. 5 MR. AMRANE: So this is -- this is different. 6 MR. SACHS: Okay. I've been nice. Now you 7 g ot to send me the data. 8 MR. FLY: Okay. It's not the first time it's 9 b een discussed. 10 MR. RIVEST: Is there a risk of protocol of 11 s omeone coming in from outside, filling in something 12 t hey call an economizer so that they don't get tested? 13 MR. WHITWELL: Not if -- not if it would be 14 r ecorded. There's a -- there's a paragraph in the end 15 o f the power point that says that if they -- if 16 a nything that's exempted they have to supply the 17 p roduct without it. 18 MR. AMRANE: Right. Exactly. 19 MR. RIVEST: So put that there. 20 MR. WHITWELL: So I think that's a good add 21 t hat covers it. 22 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. What about new product

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 292 1 c lasses? 2 MR. SACHS: There's a lot happening in things 3 l ike west -- western regional incentive requirements 4 a nd things like that which are addressing some of these 5 i ssues. 6 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. 7 Onto the next one. Okay. ERVs, HRVC pipes, 8 p rocess heat recovery. Okay. There's quite a few 9 h ere. You've grouped yours into a definition that says, 10 T hese devices recover heat and moisture from the winter 11 e xhaust air and transfer it to the ventilation air. 12 C onversely, heat and moisture are removed from the 13 s ummer ventilation air and ejected to the exhausted 14 a ir. And on the slide we have then in various forms -- 15 v entilation, energy recovery system, in general means, 16 A n assembly that preconditions outdoor air entering 17 e quipment through direct or indirect thermal and/or 18 m oisture exchange with the exhaust air, which is 19 d efined as, The building air being exhausted to the 20 o utside from the equipment. And then we have some 21 s pecific ones that incorporate that definition. I 22 w on't read them all, but you can take a look.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 293 1 MS. BARHYDT: Does this cover the full range 2 o f the options? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Today's options. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Is the -- is the first 5 d efinition broad enough to encompass possible future -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, basically the 7 d efinitions cover transfer of heat and moisture between 8 t he air streaMS. So I think it's -- no matter how the - 9

- how it's achieved, it's covered in. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, so the -- so the other 11 o nes, you know, might say today's technology. But, you 12 k now, there's definitely some even looked at in 13 u niversities and stuff like that -- that are about to 14 f ind there's some university research. 15 MR. FLY: But does it matter to the 16 d efinition which way the transfer's going? 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, as an example, I'll use 18 t he heat recovery ventilator. It transfers heat but no 19 m oisture between the outdoor air and exhaust air. It 20 s eems to me that actually heat recovery ventilator is 21 t ransferring heat from the exhaust air to the incoming 22 o utdoor air. No?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 294 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, those are all different. 2 A ll those ones below the top one, all those ones are 3 j ust ways that somebody's addressed this. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, but -- but -- but the -- 5 b ut the way the definition's are wording, it's just 6 s aying an exchange is occurring. And it seems to me 7 t hat depending which way the -- the transfer's 8 o ccurring is part of the definition of a given sub 9 d evice. 10 MR. FLY: I'm -- I'm missing something, 11 F rank, because I can see those all going either 12 d irection. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. And so a heat recovery 14 v entilator, okay, if it goes the other direction, isn't 15 t hat an economizer? 16 MALE SPEAKER: No. 17 MR. WHITWELL: But I guess I never considered 18 o ne, you know, was taking heat outdoor air and -- 19 MALE SPEAKER: To reduce the temperature of 20 t he incoming air. Put that back to the -- 21 MR. STANONIK: But -- but it's a heat 22 r ecovery ventilator, okay. So that says to me you're -

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 295 1

- you're taking some of the heat from the air you're 2 e xhausting and putting it into the outdoor air. You 3 w ouldn't do the other way for heat recovery. It's 4 l atent heat only though because these aren't done 5 e xclusively, but it's primarily latent heat, not 6 s ensible. 7 MR. SACHS: You -- you wouldn't be taking 8 h eat from outdoor air and putting it into exhaust air 9 s tream. There's -- there's no value to the exhaust 10 s tream. 11 MR. RIVEST: I'm -- I'm just reading the 12 w ords. 13 MS. BARHYDT: I think he's saying that the 14 d efinitions need to be more explicit about which way 15 t he heat transfer's going. 16 MR. SACHS: For -- for a given type of 17 v entilator, yeah. 18 MS. JAKOBS: Or do you really need all those 19 f lavors? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Or will the top one work for 21 e verything? 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, that's what I was saying.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 296 1 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a variation. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, don't go with the other 3 o nes because we'd have to -- and the other ones, 4 t here's issues. I mean, you'd have to do some cleaning 5 u p around those. And -- 6 MR. FLY: The last two don't really fit 7 n ecessarily with the rest of them. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Heat pump water heaters, 9 e xactly. Back to the last two. 10 MALE SPEAKER: I don't know that the last two 11 r eally belong in this class. You know, they may belong 12 s omewhere else, but. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Because I mean, both of those 14 a re, you know reclaiming some kind of thermal from -- 15 MR. FLY: Some other process. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: -- some other process, not the 17 h eating HVAC system. 18 MALE SPEAKER: We're up to heating system. 19 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we have a general 20 d efinition now. Is that workable? 21 MS. HOOTMAN: It could be combined. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Oh, it's mixing, the outdoor

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 297 1 a nd the return air are mixing. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Preconditions. They could come 3 i n in a mixed condition. So it's not just outdoor air. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it's preconditioning the 5 o utdoor air and then it's mixing the outdoor and the 6 r eturn air. Right? 7 MR. FLY: That's what it's saying. So it's - 8

- it's changing, yeah. 9 MR. AMRANE: Do we want to look at the HOA 10 s tandard about, you know, the use of the definition? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 12 MR. AMRANE: Because maybe there is a 13 d efinition there 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yeah, through the ERV. 15 MR. AMRANE: ERV standards. 16 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. While we're doing that, 17 m aybe we can talk about the impacts. 18 MR. SACHS: Before we get there, are we 19 s hipping particularly large packages that would include 20 b ypass efforts around the recovery for conditions? Or 21 a re they just too low energy to recover like mild days? 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 298 1 MR. SACHS: So our product's going to have a 2 d ifferent pressure drops than running across the -- the 3 w heel, for example? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. Those are all 5 d ifferent versions of this. 6 MR. SACHS: The assembly has a pair of 7 f lappers on it, too. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Some of them do. 9 MR. MYERS: Where that's saying, Means an 10 a ssembly, should that be a system that -- 11 MR. FLY: I think the impact is similar to 12 t he economizer and plus (inaudible). 13 MS. BARHYDT: Is it a physical equipment 14 v ersus -- electronic control board system to me implies 15 t hat there may be electrical components that are not 16 p hysical parts. I -- I -- I -- I don't know. 17 " Assembly," to me, sounds like there's box there. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: It's all of the above. 19 MS. BARHYDT: It's -- it's both. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, there -- 21 MR. FLY: It's a device typically, either 22 f ull or a -- the recovery wheel or something and -- and

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 299 1 a control system that goes with it that makes it all 2 w ork. 3 MR. MYERS: But who knows what it could be 4 f ive years from now. 5 MR. FLY: Well -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, there are some 7 i nteresting - 8 - 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, but it's still got to 10 p erform the same function. Right? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Or else it's going to be 13 c alled something else. I mean, basically what you're 14 d oing is you're exchanging heat and -- heat and 15 m oisture with the outdoor air. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: And -- and under the test 17 c onditions, they always are causing a pressure drop. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Causing a pressure 19 d rop. And plus, you've got the -- the auxiliary fans 20 w hich are going to, if they're on during the test, are 21 g oing to draw additional power. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. We don't have to bring

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 300 1 i n outside air in the test procedure. And if accepted, 2 i t's going to have to a static pressure drop. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. See, it's similar 4 i ssues with -- with the economizer from the test 5 p rocedure. 6 MR. RIVEST: 62.1 says, to devise a common 7 t reatment plan means to provide the outdoor air for 8 v entilation in which energy is transferred between the 9 i ntake and the exhaust. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: And it's energy. 11 MR. WHITWELL: And it says thermal and 12 m oisture. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 14 MR. AMRANE: I mean, that's what we -- we 15 h ave in our standards. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh. 17 MR. SACHS: I think it's the generalization. 18 T here are advantages in using standard industry 19 n omenclature. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh. 21 MR. SACHS: I wonder if we could just have a 22 b olded instruction to advise this to match the ASRAC

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 301 1 d efinitions. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Potentially. Some -- some 3 n ight I want to go look up some of these words here. I 4 k now one of the ones earlier that we looked at it had a 5 d ucks and dampers and there was a concern that that was 6 t echnology limiting. And so there -- there may be. 7 MR. SACHS: At least it's a starting point. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Fair enough. 9 MR. FLY: On this particular one, I would 10 a rgue that zero to low is not the right rating for 11 t hese tests because the pressure drops in the currently 12 a vailable technology. 13 That's probably medium to high because an 14 i nch on a two-tenths of an inch external settings -- 15 t his is a big number. 16 MR. FLY: It is a big number. 17 MR. MARANTAN: But I think it depends on the 18 d esign. I've seen a couple of designs that's it's on 19 t he low side. Probably are describing some designs 20 t hat are on the high side. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: You haven't looked at a descet 22 o il. I -- I don't know a descet oil out there that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 302 1 d oesn't have at least an inch on it. I mean, they're - 2

- 3 MR. WHITWELL: But that's for pulling the 4 o utdoor air through. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: In. 6 MS. BARHYDT: So the difference between low 7 a nd high due to functional needs or is it a difference 8 i n the technology being used or? 9 MR. FLY: Or the amount of energy you want to 10 r ecover. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 12 MR. FLY: The higher efficient systems have 13 h igher pressure drop. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: So you can have one of those, 15 t oo 16 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. How about relative 17 v olume of products diffuse components? 18 MR. AMRANE: This is coming -- becoming more 19 a nd more -- 20 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, it's becoming -- this is a 21 g rowing -- 22 MR. AMRANE: The code is changing, 90.1 is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 303 1 c hanging to make it more of a requirement in the 2 c limate zones, things like that. So it's going to be 3 e ven more -- 4 MR. MARANTAN: More and more prevalent, yeah. 5 MR. SACHS: We all hope, yeah. 6 MR. FLY: I don't know that we'd call it high 7 t oday, but it's medium. 8 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. 9 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Today, yeah. 10 MR. MARANTAN: How about options for test 11 p rocedure modification? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Lots. 13 MR. STEM: Seems like all of your -- or 14 o ptions that you would do for a special application. 15 MR. AMRANE: Right. 16 MR. STEM: Special request. So it's almost 17 l ike you have your standard rating test for your basic 18 m odels and then the applications rating for all these 19 o ptions. So the test procedure could be similar to what 20 y ou have in -- in other areas but the -- the rating 21 p oints would be different to -- to show that energy 22 g ain.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 304 1 MR. FLY: The way H or I has chose to address 2 i t, Grady, help me on this -- is through guideline B 3 w hich -- 4 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, and that's -- and that's 5 s omething we have -- we have a way -- actually,that's 6 t he only guidelines we have that basically gives you an 7 E ER of the two. 8 MR. RIVEST: But it's not a test. 9 MR. AMRANE: It is not a test. It's a 10 c alculation. So basically you have an ER read of 35 11 t hrough the HRI and 60 -- you have a unitary product 55 12 t o 340 through 60. Then when you have the certificated 13 r ating, you could use guideline B and -- and then you 14 c ombine and you find an ER. This idea of concept of 15 s ystem efficiency we are starting having discussion 16 w ithin HRI about -- about this because we see it as 17 b eing the way to go. But that's -- that's still very 18 e arly within the HRI discussion, so. 19 But eventually, yes, you would be able to do 20 t hat. But that's not a simple thing. And it -- 21 MR. RIVEST: That's inviting (inaudible). 22 MR. AMRANE: That's inviting (inaudible).

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 305 1 MS. JAKOBS: Well, this is really a 2 c ombination. It could be -- you could have a stand3 a lone ventilation energy recovery system. 4 MR. AMRANE: That's correct. That would be 5 a nother product. 6 MS. JAKOBS: So it's just a matter of we've 7 c ombined them and use the same blower system. 8 MR. AMRANE: Right. And if -- and if they 9 w ould not exclude this from the test procedure, we 10 w ould force our customers back to the point of putting 11 i n those auxiliary systems with other power supplies. 12 MS. JAKOBS: And actually causing probably 13 b uilding load power supplies to go up. 14 MR. MARANTAN: Karim, what was the guideline 15

- - 16 D? 17 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, it was. 18 FEMALE SPEAKER: "B" as in boy? 19 MR. AMRANE: No, V, V, V, V. 20 FEMALE SPEAKER: V, sorry. 21 MR. MARANTAN: The last item on this slide is 22 f or new product classes, options for new product

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 306 1 c lasses. Any thoughts on that? 2 MR. RIVEST: Set up for classes when the 3 d evice makes it harder to reach metric. In this case 4 i t sounds like the procedure changes, more accurate way 5 t o go and - 6 - 7 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I mean it's harder to 8 m eet the metric today. But there's -- the test 9 p rocedure we have doesn't include the -- the benefit. 10 R ight? 11 MR. RIVEST: Right. 12 MR. WHITWELL: A test procedure change would 13 m ake more sense. 14 MR. DOPPEL: Well, there's a whole class of 15 l ike equipment that treats outside air. Kind of 16 r eminds me of this, you know. And everybody --all 17 t hose kind of things are -- is kind of like one group. 18 B ecause you're dealing with the reality of outside air 19 i ntroduction, release of air would come from the 20 b uilding. I mean, that would be -- to me, would be one 21 w hole class. 22 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, but to us the class means

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 307 1 s etting a separate standard. And based on that 2 a nalysis, of how energy is used in the device. 3 MR. WHITWELL: No, I mean I would suggest 4 t reating this like we talked about on the economizer 5 w here it really wanted to test a product it would order 6 i t without the ERV test that until sometime in the 7 f uture when we can address it. 8 MR. HUNT: Do we have a dedicated outdoor air 9

- - Marshall of PG&E -- do we have a dedicated outdoor 10 a ir system standard? I don't think so. 11 MR. AMRANE: I think we do. I think there 12 i s. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: We're working on it. 14 MR. AMRANE: We are working on it, yeah. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: But it's not done. 16 MR. AMRANE: Maybe it's not finished yet. 17 MR. HUNT: It's in progress. 18 MR. AMRANE: It's in progress, yes. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: So yeah, right now these would 20 b e -- 21 MR. WHITWELL: These are somewhere in 22 b etween.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 308 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Somewhere in between. That's 2 o ne of those that I've asked actually about going to 3 g et you an exception for that or what. 4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. 5 Moving onto the next one. I have coated 6 c oils is the next one. Oh, we added this. So we have 7 p rocess heat recovery and reclaim coils. Process heat 8 r ecovery coil means a heat exchanger located inside the 9 e quipment that heats the equipment supply air using 10 h eat transferred from an external heat source using a 11 v apor gas or liquid. 12 MR. FLY: So this can recover waste heat and 13

- - off a process or it can recover waste heat off your 14 c ondenser itself for humidification purposes so it kind 15 o f blends in with the dehumidifiers that's coming up. 16 B ut in either case, it's another coil, another pressure 17 d rop. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 19 MR. FLY: In here that you don't get credit 20 f or. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 22 MR. FLY: -- during the test operation

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 309 1 b ecause it's not required of the test conditions. 2 MR. SACHS: Depending on the temperature, the 3 u pper of those bullets look just like a bordered air 4 c oil instead of a gas pack? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: And then there -- there are 6 o ther systems. They're -- they're not real prevalent. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Made one once. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: No, there's a little bit more 9 t han one. But where they reclaim cooling. And so 10 y ou're using heat here where they're reclaiming 11 c ooling. 12 MR. FLY: So and you're promoting heat pump 13 w ater heaters in place for that cooling to go. 14 MR. SACHS: Unless you got a big process, 15 t here's not much there. 16 MR. MARANTAN: Are we okay with that? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: So another whole classification 18 o r bullet you need to have there is ice storage. Ice 19 s torage. 20 MS. TUCKER: So it's not a water coil? 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, can be water, can be 22 r efrigerant. Selling off mode unoccupied hours.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 310 1 MR. FLY: It's really a load shedding for the 2 u tility more than anything else. It's just another 3 c oil; right? 4 MR. MYERS: So if you change that process 5 h eat recovery coil to process energy recovery coil, 6 t hat would cover all of those? 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Yeah. 8 MR. MARANTAN: Wouldn't that also take care 9 o f reclaimed? 10 MR. MYERS: I'm thinking it takes care of 11 t hat and -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, it would. 13 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we can eliminate the 14 b ottom two. 15 MS. TUCKER: Do we need to change the 16 d efinition anywhere? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: The -- instead of -- and then 18 m eans a heat exchanger, which it could just be a 19 g eneric term of heat exchanger, anything that is 20 e xchanging thermal and conditions the equipment 21 s upplier. 22 MR. MYERS: And using the energy.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 311 1 MS. TUCKER: Energy transferred from external 2

- - external source using, just take out heat. 3 MS.HOOTMAN: There you go. 4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So that's a lot more 5 g eneric. Okay. In terms of impact, we characterize it 6 a s medium. And in the -- let's see. Medium's 7 a ppropriate? Medium, as you recall, is 2 to 10 8 p ercent. Okay. How about relative volume, similar to 9 t he -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN:: Call that thermal storage 11 u nit. Be more generic. 12 MR. MARANTAN: Thermal. There you go. 13 MS. TUCKER: Thank you. 14 MR. MARANTAN: Relative volume, is this 15 s imilar to the previous slide where we took this one? 16 M edium low or -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah 18 MR. MARANTAN: -- or medium? No more than 19 m edium. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: You've got to have this other 21 s ource of heat in that -- in that -- in this many 22 a pplications.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 312 1 MR. MARANTAN: Is your definition of medium 2 t o low the same as what we're using for the impact on 3 e nergy? 4 MR. AMRANE: So low is up to 2 percent. 5 MR. MARANTAN: The relative volume, I just 6 w ant to know what you mean by low, low to medium. 7 MALE SPEAKER: Less than 2 percent option. 8 L ow option. 9 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. So medium is 2 to 10 10 p ercent. 11 MR. MARANTAN: 2 to 10. Using the same. 12 O kay. 13 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, we can go with that for 14 n ow. 15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Test procedure 16 m odification. Any options for test procedure 17 m odifications? Does guideline B apply? 18 MR. FLY: The source is undefined. It could 19 b e anything. So it's going to be hard to run the test. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, if the source is in the 21 b uilding and it's not -- 22 MR. FLY: Is it something separate?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 313 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. It's not something that 2 w e provided. So we can't tell you what it is. How can 3 I write a test procedure? 4 MR. FLY: Not applicable. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: I can't even tell you if it's 6 l inked for gas. 7 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. We'll go with non8 a pplicable. How about new product classes? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Supermarket units. 10 MR. FLY: I said it just wouldn't be a whole 11 l ot of volume in it for product market. 12 MR. MARANTAN: All right. Coated coils. 13 So I'll read off the definition you provided. 14 A coated coil is a condenser, evaporator, or coil 15 h aving a thin layer, typically .02 inches or less 16 t hickness, on the fins or on the fins and tubes of an 17 a nti-corrosive material. The anti-corrosive material 18 h as minimal thermal impotence, typically not decreasing 19 a ir to refrigerant heat transfer by more than 5 20 p ercent. And what we see on the screen says, an indoor 21 c oil or outdoor coil whose entire surface, including 22 t he entire surface of both fins and tubes, is covered

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 314 1 w ith a thin continuous non-porous coating to reduce 2 c orrosion. 3 MR. WHITWELL: I think that's fine. That -- 4 t hat seems okay to me. 5 MR. MARANTAN: That's all right. Okay. Oh, 6 l ast time we talked about coated coils, there was a 7 c oncern about -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: It's just the White House 9 t rying to figure out what we're saying. 10 MS. MEYERS: We can hear you dialing. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's us. 12 MR. MARANTAN: So last time we were talking 13 a bout coated coils, there was a mention of a concern 14 t hat somebody would just spray paint, you know, their - 15

- their coil. Does that address this issue? 16 MR. WHITWELL: Again -- 17 MR. MARANTAN: Is there still a concern? 18 MR. WHITWELL: -- I think it's the comment 19 t hat if -- if this is exempted, then DOE would have the 20 o pportunity to order a non-coated coil and test. 21 R ight? 22 MR. HURST: Right. You still have a basic

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 315 1 m odel and you have to test. 2 MR. WHITWELL Yeah. Right. Or you could 3 t est. 4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. If we do 5 t hat, there should probably be something that says, if 6 y ou have a coated model, you have to have an uncoated 7 m odel. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Or -- or the coated model 9 n eeds to meet the minimums. 10 MR. FLY: Exactly. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Exactly. So that somebody 12 d oesn't go, I only have coated. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's your basic model. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, that would be the basic 15 m odel. 16 MS. MEYERS: If you only have -- yeah, I 17 h eard Eric say, if you only have coated, it has to meet 18 t he minimum. 19 MR. RIVEST: We agree on that one. 20 MR. MARANTAN: Also, there's no mention of 21 m inimum thickness. You have a typical thickness 22 d escribed in your definition. We're okay without that?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 316 1 MS. HOOTMAN: It depends on what kind of 2 p rocess you're using. Some of these are -- can be very 3 t hin and so worn. I mean, when you actually get thin 4 s tuff, it should be coated. 5 MR. SACHS: Is anodizing coating? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Doesn't do anything for this. 7 MR. SACHS: No, but I could imagine some 8 e nvironments where it -- it would. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, it is coated. It is 10 c oating the metal. 11 MR. RIVEST: I think what we have to create 12 i s -- is a password for classes in the future to have a 13 d ifferential standard or some other incentive for 14 m anufacturers to encoat these in the most efficient way 15 p ossible. And you wouldn't want -- and I know there 16 a re many processes out there to result in a small 17 c hange efficiency and others are exchanging efficiency. 18 MR. AMRANE: But at the end of the day, how 19 m uch -- how much are we talking about here in terms of 20

- - of percent to be shipped? I -- I don't think we're 21 t alking about a big number. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Hang on. I left that up, too.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 317 1 MR. AMRANE: Maybe there's some areas in the 2 c ountry where, but. 3 MR. RIVEST: I have coating on mine. 4 MR. AMRANE: You have. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Are you within a mile of the 6 s ea coast? You better. 7 MR. FLY: You better. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: You better. You won't have a - 9

- you won't have a coil in the air. 10 MR. SACHS: It's a fairly substantial 11 f raction of population 12 MR. AMRANE: And now, if you take a 13 p ercentage, yes. I think -- I think product class 14 m akes a lot of sense. But if you are talking -- if we 15 a re talking of small, I mean, I'm not sure if it's 16 r eally -- 17 MR. RIVEST: Product class avoids people 18 m aking very inefficient products. 19 MR. AMRANE: Just to be clear, when we're 20 t alking about product classes, what I'm envisioning is 21 e verything else moves up in efficiency and maybe coated 22 c oils and copper coils, if that's a product class,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 318 1 s tays where it is. 2 MS. MEYERS: Of course you do. 3 MR. RIVEST: It goes on not as much. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: No back-sliding. That would 5 b e illegal. 6 MR. AMRANE: There's a -- a test procedure 7 c hange that requires low standards because it happened 8 i n the past. But test procedure would lower 9 d eficiency. 10 MR. RIVEST: I'm going to lighten it 11 c onversation right now. 12 MR. AMRANE: It does that. 13 MR. MARANTAN: I think someone was looking at 14 t he volume of products. But while we're doing that, 15 m aybe we can do, the product classes I heard are 16 c orrosive classes similar to the coppers. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Uh-huh. Yeah, I'm seeing some 18 d ata on this that is like it's under 10 percent. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Way under 10 percent. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe in the 5 -- 5 percent. 21 D epends on -- the data I have it -- it varies depending 22 o n our product family.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 319 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Me, too. 2 MR. JOHNSON: So 5 to 8 percent maybe? 3 MR. WHITWELL: No, I think it's -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: I think it's -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: -- it's more in the 3 to 5 6 p ercent I think. 7 MS. MEYERS: Yes. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, my highest is 5. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, all right. 10 MS. MEYERS: But this is another of a product 11 f amily, not the way you all are defining it. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 13 MS. MEYERS: So. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: This is another one where it's 16 v ery important to remember that this, you know, test 17 p rocedure may decrease the efficiency but it actually 18 i ncreases the -- otherwise, you know, your unit's going 19 t o be destroyed in less than 12 months. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I mean, we've seen -- 21 MS. MEYERS: So this is another really good 22 e xample of one of those issues that, you know, we just

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 320 1 n eed to let this one go because it's really as far as 2 e nergy use in the field is a good thing. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, we've seen units out 4 t here that have been out -- and you can see post5 a pplications for several years and there's no fin slash 6 d own to coil. She's got tubes, still runs, but it's not 7 g oing to be very efficient. It all depends on, you 8 k now, how the -- how much salt gets on it or whatever 9 e lse, whatever other chemicals get on it. 10 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. We do a lot of analysis 11 o n pennies and coatings and stuff like that. And this 12 i s very important to have it, you know, because you 13 h ave this warranty on this unit. And so for warranty 14 p urposes, you need a lot of analysis, not just on the 15 c oil coatings but on the -- the -- the paint that's on 16 y our, you know, units all that kind of stuff. So, you 17 k now, trying to keep a unit that will perform in a sea 18 c oast environment is -- I think all manufacturers spend 19 a lot of time in that area. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yep. 21 MR. SACHS: Good recommendation for ground 22 s ource.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 321 1 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The last thing on this 2 s lide I think is test procedure modification. And I 3 t hink is it fair to say NA for that one? 4 MR. STEM: Yeah, I don't think there's -- 5 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, we don't need to change 6 t his. 7 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. All right. The next 8 o ne is hail guards. So the definition on that the 9 s creen, A perforated sheet or grill with holes whose 10 m inimum dimensions are no larger than .3 inches for a 11 l ouvered assembly that covers externally exposed 12 s urfaces of an outdoor coil to protect it from hail or 13 o ther potential damage from solid objects. 14 MR. FLY: I think that's overly specific. 15 MR. MARANTAN: Too much? 16 MR. FLY: Yeah. 17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So yours is this, A 18 g rill or similar structure mounted to the outside of 19 t he unit covering the outdoor coil to protect the coil 20 f rom hail, flying debris, and damage from large 21 o bjects. 22 MR. FLY: Go with That.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 322 1 MR. MARANTAN: Simpler. 2 MR. HUNT: Tornados. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Flying objects. 4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The impact we 5 c haracterize it as low. I think your number was 1 to 3 6 p ercent. 7 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. 8 MR. MARANTAN: Similar. 9 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. 10 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. How about relative 11 v olume? How prevalent are they? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: From the factory? 13 MR. RIVEST: Yeah. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Our volume is actually about 15 a round -- somewhere around 10 percent. 16 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, I'd put it at 5 to 10 17 p ercent category, not the 3 to 5. 18 MR. MARANTAN: 5 to 10 percent of products. 19 MS. MEYERS: Karen it's kind of a growing 20 a rea, too. Especially on -- on -- on commercial units, 21 t his is really market sudden. 22 MR. MARANTAN: One of the things we had in

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 323 1 o ur definition, it was -- it included the idea of 2 e nclosing the entire surface. Is that a concern? 3 MR. WHITWELL: I didn't understand. 4 MR. HUNT: You mean, closing -- 5 MR. MARANTAN: Covers. 6 MR. HUNT: Yeah, you're making it too tight. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, that that's what we were 8 j ust saying is that there are the homemade versions out 9 t here that we -- we, as a matter of fact, you really 10 d on't like. We would rather them use our option from 11 t he factory than -- 12 MR. JOHNSON: It looks more like a hood than 13 i t does a hail guard. So yeah, that would be a concern 14 t hat it would go -- that it would cover too much of the 15 s urface area. 16 MR. MARANTAN: Is that -- does that need to 17 g et included in the definition? 18 MR. JOHNSON: I don't -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, the thing is that once 20 t hey get to that point, besides obviously it's killing 21 e nergy, they're going to kill the compressor pretty 22 d ang fast.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 324 1 MR. WHITWELL: Well, let's put it this way, a 2 m anufacturers not going to do that, I wouldn't think. 3 S o I don't know that that would be a concern from a 4 m anufacturing concern. 5 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we'll leave it as 6 i s, what you see here. 7 MR. FLY: Yeah. Yeah. We want to be in 8 c ontrol. 9 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Let's see. Test 10 p rocedure modification. Any thoughts on that? Remove 11 i t? 12 MR. MYERS: Can you just remove it? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Or why even buy it that way? 14 Y ou just spent money on something you don't even use. 15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. We'll go with -- 16 MR. MYERS: It's a smart thing to do but from 17 a test procedure, if it has one -- 18 MR. WHITWELL: Could be removed. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 20 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. How about a new product 21 c lass for this? Not applicable? 22 MR. WHITWELL: So should we include -- under

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 325 1 " options for future test fund modification," do we put 2 s omething in there about removed or do we just? 3 MR. MARANTAN: We can put that in there, 4 u nder "test procedures." Okay. The next one is 5 d ehumidification components. So the definition on the 6 s creen is, An extendant that reduces the moisture 7 c ontent of the supply air from which your transfer with 8 s olid or liquid desiccants. Does that capture what we 9 n eed? 10 MR. FLY: Transfer. I mean, we kind of 11 c overed the other way that it would be refundable. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 13 MR. MARANTAN: The definition you've provided 14 i n your document has a few examples, but I think in 15 g eneral this this captures the ideals. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, uh-huh. 17 MR. FLY: Mark Fly, I wrote that one, too. 18 A nd I'd covered re -- reheat coils and the same thing. 19 W hich, like I said, we kind of already did on another 20 s ection, so we can just re-organize them. 21 MR. MARANTAN: Are you saying to remove this? 22 MR. FLY: I don't have a problem with that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 326 1 d efinition. 2 MR. SACHS: We've already done this. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, what he's saying is in 4 h ere it included the reheat time. 5 MR. SACHS: So the liquid or what I call 6 r egenerative dehumidifier wheels -- 7 MR. FLY: Is really what he is talking about 8 h ere and the -- the difference between that and, say, 9 h eat recovery wheels is usually they use heat to drive 10 t he moisture out of the -- the desiccant. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 12 MR. FLY: And so they add a sensible heat 13 l oad back into the system which then has to be -- if 14 i t's a -- you're in a cooling mode, you have to add 15 c ooling back into the system. So in order to get to 16 r eal low humidities for some process loads, what I 17 r emember from my past was a toner plant in a Xerox 18 f acility where they needed twelve grains of moisture in 19 t he space so the tonner didn't clump. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh. 21 MR. FLY: You know, we put a lot of heat back 22 i n.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 327 1 MR. SACHS: Mark, do you foresee these being 2 s hipped as integral parts of -- of serious products in 3 t he near future? 4 MR. FLY: There are people -- here again, we 5 g o back to grocery stores. There's a lot of grocery 6 s tores that will have a desiccant dehumidifier fire 7 u nit packaging it on a loose -- I don't know what the - 8

- 9 MR. SACHS: Is that a guideline five unit or 10 i s it -- 11 MR. FLY: No, it's a different animal. 12 B ecause instead of having exhaust air go through the 13 o ther half, they actually have a heater -- either a gas 14 h eater - 15 MR. SACHS: Okay. 16 MR. FLY: -- or a electric heater and they'll 17 b ring air up to somewhere in the range of 400 degrees 18 g oing through that side. And then it rotates back over 19 a nd then that heat actually ends up back into the air 20 s tream. 21 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry, I wasn't make myself 22 c lear. You know, I -- I followed Andy Loenstein's

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 328 1 l iquid desiccant stuff, but I visualize that as not 2 b eing an integrated large HVAC unit but as being -- 3 MR. FLY: Separate product class. 4 MR. SACHS: So the question is, are we going 5 t o be seeing these as integrated units that would come 6 u nder the 360 -- 7 MR. FLY: Yeah. 8 MR. SACHS: -- 460 classification? 9 MR. FLY: I don't think there's much of that 10 t oday. I don't know. 11 MR. SACHS: So we could put -- this is a 12 p lace holder? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: We're getting more and more 14 c ustomers asking us to put it integrated into it. 15 MR. SACHS: Okay. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Right now I will say that we 17 h aven't because of other reasons, we don't like the 18 m anufacturing reasons and some other reasons. 19 MR. SACHS: But Jill -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: But we're getting comments that 21 t hey would like us to. 22 MR. SACHS: When you get to that point, you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 329 1 s ee being a point where that wheel is -- and it's 2 e ither interior parts or bolt ons at one end or the 3 o ther? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: In this case it would have to 5 b e integral to the unit. 6 MR. SACHS: That are people like Hard Grove 7 C are that -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly, they're the third 9 p arty people that would modify it that we would just 10 s end them a unit and they go for it. And that's what's 11 h appening in actually today probably a little bit with 12

- - with our knowledge and without our knowledge. But 13 w e've had requests, I can, you know, think of some 14 c ustomers have that actually asked for this to be 15 i ntegrated into the unit which would actually -- be put 16 o n before the roof and all this other kind of stuff 17 g ets put on. So it really would be part of the 18 m anufacturing of it. 19 MR. SACHS: Okay. Thank you. That's very 20 h elpful. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: You know, and -- and I guess 22 w e're talking about where -- where this would go put in

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 330 1 i s a very specific product family for us, but of the 2 t hree through -- and 63 tons we're talking about here, 3 t his is a small part. But it's a very large unit. 4 I t's these units we've talked about that are huge and, 5 y ou know, as big as this room and all that kind of 6 s tuff and have extra sections in them. 7 MR. SACHS: So are you seeing the need for a 8 p lace holder here or do we have to get very specific 9 a bout how to proceed? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: This might qualify for -- for a 11 d ifferent product class at some point. 12 MR. SACHS: So in the short term, somebody 13 c omes in, it would be with a waiver request that would 14 l ead eventually to a product test. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: It's one of the notes I put to 16 m yself is is this a place we do waivers. 17 MR. MARANTAN: So we can move on. 18 MS. BARHYDT: What did we resolve here? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Did we do a waiver on oneoff? 20 T hat's where I would go. You know, I'm going to make 21 o ne of these every three years. We do an exemption, 22 t he way -- I just don't know -- I don't know about

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 331 1 e xceptions from waivers, I have to say. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Hello. We have test procedure 3 w aivers that deal with test procedure issues. As far 4 a s the standards, that requires Office of Hearing and 5 A ppeals exception relief. And it's not possible to get 6 r elief from a statutory standard. So it depends on 7 w hether the standard was set through DOE rule making or 8 w hether the standard was set by statute. 9 MR. FLY: So if we call this a product class, 10 t he question becomes is a product. 11 MS. BARHYDT: So if it's a product class, 12 t hen the Department is setting the standard through 13 r ule making. And once the Department has set a 14 s tandard through rule making, there is the possibility 15 O HAR relief. But I'm not sure that I answered your 16 q uestion. 17 MR. FLY: Yeah, but in this case I think it 18 w ould be a waiver from the test procedure. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So if it's a test 20 p rocedure waiver, then you can get a test procedure 21 w aiver for -- usually it's -- there's some description 22 o f the product for which you're seeking the waiver.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 332 1 MR. FLY: Right. 2 MS. BARHYDT: And that's usually based on a 3 b asic model. 4 MR. FLY: Then I got to think on it now. 5 MS. HOOTMAN Well, that's what I'm saying, how 6 w ould you test it? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Test it. 8 MR. FLY: You can't take it out. You can't 9 t est it with it in as well. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. But if you take a 11 w aiver, you cannot take representation about the 12 i nefficiency of the product. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Well, if you get a waiver, it 14 t ells you how to. -- 15 MR. AMRANE: If you haven't done structure 16 t est procedure. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh. 18 MR. SACHS: But we're talking about 19 e ssentially one-offs for very sophisticated customers. 20 MS. JAKOBS: Right, I mean Mark's example, 21 i t's not for -- for cooling of -- 22 MALE SPEAKER: People comfort.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 333 1 MS. JAKOBS: People comfort. It's for 2 p rocess. 3 MS. BARHYDT: So do you -- 4 MS. JAKOBS: It's not an air conditioner 5 r eally. It's -- 6 MR. FLY: It would probably be -- the highest 7 u se I see is there are people out there doing this for 8 g rocery store dehumidification. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep. 10 MR. FLY: So they'll put one of these units 11 o n a grocery store and a bunch of other units. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 13 MR. FLY: And it's a dead -- it's 14 d ehumidification unit. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 16 MR. FLY: Which to me says it's a -- not an 17 a ir conditioner, it's a dehumidifier. A lot of times 18 t hey're not even shooting to do any cooling of it, 19 t hey're just trying to get the neutral air dryer -- 20 n eutral temperature air dryer. 21 MS. JAKOBS: There's one on a store of a Wal22 M art.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 334 1 MR. FLY: There you go. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Every Wal-Mart has one, yeah. 3 T hat's why they need the drinks at the check-out, 4 b ecause you're awful thirsty when you get there. 5 MR. SACHS: It's not a 360, 460 product, it's 6 a dehumidifier. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, but, you know, the 8 c omponents within in it and what it does, when you 9 w ould look at its description, if they would describe 10 t hat unit, it's conditioning the space, it's heating 11 a nd cooling the space. It's, you know. 12 MR. FLY: They have a six -- 360 product 13 e mbedded in that. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 15 MR. FLY: Yeah. And that's what I'm saying, 16 t here are customers who have asked us to take that and 17 p ut it in an actual heating and cooling unit as well, 18 w hich is possible. I'm not saying we haven't done it. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: So how do I make a test 20 e xemption for that? 21 MR. MARANTAN: So one of the things that I 22 h eard here was that, you know, for the last bullet

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 335 1 o ptions for product class, I heard grocery store. 2 MR. FLY: I think it's a different product 3 f or -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: They all -- I don't know. 5 MR. SACHS: I just bought a dehumidifier for 6 t he house and it's got a compressor in it, too. 7 MR. MARANTAN: All right. Maybe we can knock 8 o ff a couple of these that we -- we do know.The 9 r elative volume is quite low. Right? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: It is low. 11 MR. MARANTAN: And the impacts on the -- the 12 i mpact on the test procedure measured energy, we 13 c haracterize it as low to medium. I see in your 14 d ocument you had it from 2 to 15 percent. So that's 15 s imilar. So low to high. 16 MR. HURST: By definition it would be. 17 MR. MARANTAN: So low to high. Okay. And 18 I 'm not sure, but we concluded with the last two 19 b ullets. So maybe we can pick up on that tomorrow. 20 MR. AMRANE: That's it. 21 MR. EISNER: A good way to start at 8:00 22 o 'clock in the morning.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 336 1 (Whereupon, at 5:59 p.m., the Appliance 2 Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory 3 Committee Meeting was adjourned.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 8 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 10 interest in this proceeding. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 NATALIA THOMAS Digital Court Reporter



### (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 

### 2013 337

### Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 I, LISA SIKES, hereby certify that I am not 3 the Court Reporter who reported the following 4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 8 proceeding. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 

## G

# {1:/:2'I~ Date L I SA SIKES Transcriptionist

(866) 448

- DEPO 

### www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 

### 2013 338

### Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 I, WENDY SARDINA, hereby certify that I am 3 not the Court Reporter who reported the following 4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 8 proceeding. 9 10 11 12 =1Ul M..-

### \~**~** S 

# t.J0J1" Sovck**~** WE N DY SARD t NA 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Date Transcriptionist

(866) 448

- DEPO 

### www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 

### 2013 339

### Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 I, MARY YOUNG, hereby certify that I am not 3 the Court Reporter who reported the following 4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 8 proceeding. 9 10 11**"""\u~**

### \~ Date 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Transcriptionist

(866) 448

- DEPO 

### www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 

### 2013 340

### Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not 3 the Court Reporter who reported the following 4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 8 proceeding. 9 10 11 12 13 14 (,1

## (I?ft~ Date 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 SA RAH VEACH Transcriptionist



### (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 

### 2013 341

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 1

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 $ $100 267:4 $100,000 50:14 96:22 267:3

+ + 213:12 0 00 249:16 02 313:15 1 1 20:6,8 21:15 22:9 33:10 35:16 54:16 83:22 205:20 281:8 322:5 1,000 35:10 60:6 126:3 1,200 50:19 1.1 33:10 1.2 33:11 10 1:11 15:14 36:3,4 55:17 60:5 197:12 241:20 311:7 312:9,11 318:18,19 322:15,16,18 10,000 61:2 10:00 1:12 100 14:19 18:15 21:7,8 55:18 195:3 204:19 207:5 266:17 277:13,14 100,000 137:11 11:30 71:2 1110 4:7 12 36:21 83:22 195:11,14,15 197:12,17,21 199:18 208:21 209:12 210:6 319:19 120,000 243:11 12-foot 195:3 197:4,18 198:14 209:8 14 192:1 14-foot 184:21 15 249:14 335:14 15-phase 241:20 16-foot 197:5 210:7 16s 209:12 18 44:8 61:10,12 62:21 84:1 265:2,4 180 44:14 110:14 2 2 14:18 15:12 18:14 20:8 31:5 35:16 36:18,21 50:15 55:11,15,16 61:19 80:3 84:12 96:1 121:11,18,19 123:3 281:9 311:7 312:4,7,9,11 335:14 2:41:33.7 289:2 20 15:10 18:9 35:22 36:2,5 43:16 45:3 55:11 74:16 121:11 196:15 200 32:14 2012 205:21 2013 1:11 2014 52:22 2111 1:7 22 15:19 24 36:17 40:12,20,22 41:1,6,12,13,16, 20,22 42:14 43:13,19 44:2 61:14,16,18 62:3 79:5 80:2 82:15,19 83:14 84:1,11 93:20 156:1 24-month 40:10,16 42:20 45:4 81:8 83:4 94:5 155:16,22 156:3 25 20:6,8 21:15,16,20 22:9,10,17 32:13,18 26 7:13 20:6,9 3 3 35:22 50:15 84:10,11 282:8,10 319:5 321:10 322:5,17 30 32:1 45:5 84:1 30-some 16:10 60:17 3-10 242:4 33's 242:5 340 304:12

35 22:17,19 23:1 26:1,3 54:16 61:1,3 94:5 95:3 111:8 115:22 116:3,5,12 117:15 121:9,10,19 304:10 36 23:1 36:22 61:14,22 360 328:6 334:5,12 3-year 15:10,11 16:18 4 4 20:8 53:5 96:1 121:10 170:19,22 171:1,12 191:19 193:4 209:12 210:4 40 73:5 134:7 400 327:17 460 328:8 334:5 48 62:1,5 5 5 43:20 313:19 318:20 319:2,5,8 322:16,17,18 5,000 32:19 5.7 121:19 5:59 336:1 50 16:17 18:8 20:6,9 32:1 281:10 500 1:8 30:22 31:7 33:7 35:15

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 2

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 55 304:11 6 6 20:8 50:16 83:22 84:12 96:1 60 134:6 304:11,12 60-025 151:20 62.1 300:6 63 146:9 330:2 7 70 51:21 53:8 8 8 20:8 41:14 96:1 210:5 319:2 8:00 335:21 8067 282:3 284:19 285:1 8s 209:12 9 90.1 278:22 302:22 95 282:16 283:5 285:2 96,500 241:12 A a.m 1:12 AAON 2:14 107:2 225:4 228:16 233:11 252:9 258:16 abducted 286:5 ability 33:20 46:1 65:6 78:20 79:20 86:11 125:12 138:5 139:3 141:21 148:11 158:11 233:22

able 33:1 60:16 62:2 67:12 71:14 80:14 114:22 118:3,22 135:9 141:15 142:6 145:16 188:21 217:5 230:7 247:5 277:22 282:1 285:7 304:19 absolutely 68:2 194:19 227:2 236:6 257:10 abstain 163:10 166:15 abstention 166:18 AC 123:11 236:17 accept 176:14 200:12 214:2 276:4 acceptable 58:11 accepted 29:20 95:6 300:1 accepting 95:20 access 4:14 6:4 162:14 according 179:19 223:10 account 87:5 129:9 161:22 162:6 289:12 accounting 147:1 accurate 132:11 306:4 337:7 accurately 142:6 214:6 accused 67:20,22 achieve 257:3 286:17 achieved 274:20 293:9 achieving 257:4 acknowledge 153:21 acknowledgment 269:16 acquire 113:12 acronym 107:20 across 4:10 13:21 14:1 134:20 253:19 298:2 act 92:12 acted 110:3 action 34:12 42:16 46:9 67:12 69:19,22 142:3 143:2 148:11 150:20 170:2 208:6 actions 65:6 actor 67:10,12 70:21 148:1,10 155:6,7 actors 67:16,21 actual 73:13 77:13 81:13 96:20 146:1 171:10 276:2 334:17 actually 11:11 14:5 26:11 29:3 40:3 42:13,16,17 43:11,20 54:17 62:21 65:8 73:7 78:3 84:13,17 87:15 100:7 118:21 119:8 132:20 136:2,5 171:6 200:16

202:10 219:13,20 226:9 229:22 251:4,10 255:19 260:3 266:5 268:21 270:5 271:2 278:9 280:14 282:18 293:20 305:12 308:2 316:3 319:17 322:14 327:13,19 329:11,14,15 actually,that's 304:5 actuary 278:4 ADCC 123:14 add 30:8 53:16 103:16 112:7 144:10 171:8 216:18 240:20 250:15 255:15 291:20 326:12,14 added 68:4 70:19 108:3 122:1 139:21 164:13 166:14 170:13 188:7 235:20 269:20 308:6 adding 76:19 87:11 173:1 221:8 256:18,20 addition 259:12 260:10 additional 28:22 30:6,8 32:10 54:9 97:7 108:6 109:5 129:14 145:14 155:20 157:5 158:2,4

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 3

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 180:2 226:7 245:2 299:21 additive 75:7 address 5:21 12:4 22:13 54:2 110:22 123:10 141:5 143:13 159:5 188:6 271:6 304:1 307:7 314:15 addressed 99:8 102:11 165:17 294:3 addresses 76:17 183:5 addressing 112:8 292:4 adds 269:17 adjacent 256:3 adjourned 336:3 adjust 237:4 274:5 276:18,22 adjusted 113:6 236:16 adjustments 7:6 247:2,6 249:2 adjusts 276:13 admittedly 77:22 101:17 adopted 272:2 adopting 271:21 advance 247:19 248:6 advantage 214:7,11 220:21 223:21 224:14 275:7 279:20 280:7 advantages 108:8 300:18 adverse 170:1 advertise 228:17,18 advise 300:22 Advisory 1:4 336:2 AED 100:13 AEDM 11:8,11,15,21 14:21,22 15:2,3,15,17,20, 22 17:8,9,11,13,15, 16 19:9,12,13,15 20:4 21:19,21 23:18 24:4,8,10 25:7,10,11,16 26:13,14,20 27:4,11 29:1,3,4,8,9,20 30:13,14,17,20 31:3,13,19 32:7,10 33:4,6,20 34:2,7,9,15,19,2 1 35:7,16 36:7 53:19,21 54:18 55:5,6,7,10,11,1 4 56:1,2,7,9 61:2 71:20,22 72:10,11 73:4 74:3,4,9 75:15 76:6,7,16 78:11,21 79:14,17,20 80:14,18,22 81:1,2,5,8 82:6,7,9,11 83:2,3,8,9,11,12 86:20 94:6 95:21 97:6 100:14,21 101:3,8 104:10,15 106:15,18,22 107:4,19 111:17 113:6 116:1,3,5,10,14, 16,19,22 117:8,11,13,14 118:3,8,9,13 119:4,5,14 120:1 121:18,21 122:11,18 125:14,15 126:6 128:14 129:15,22 130:16 138:4 141:15,21 142:1,5,12,13,14 143:4,8,11 145:7 146:19 147:12,18 150:14 154:6,9 155:14,20 156:5,8,12,14,21 157:11,16,17,20 158:13,17 160:19 161:2,6,13 163:1 177:7 180:1 182:21,22 183:1,4,5,7,8,10, 11,18 184:2,3,4,6 192:21 195:8 197:1,8 198:20 199:20 200:1,4,13,18,20 201:3 202:10,14 203:1 204:22 205:1,7,16 206:8 221:5 223:7 226:21 227:1 A-E-D-M 72:2 AEDMs 23:9 28:13 30:1 34:11,15,20 35:8,10,15 51:13 71:13,18,21 76:4,10 80:3,15 91:11,12,14,16 100:16 109:10 110:6 111:22 118:11,16,19,20 127:13,18 145:4 155:16 156:2 200:19 203:2 affect 29:4 77:12 98:18 100:13 186:22 191:21 227:3 281:10 affected 31:12 69:6 234:9,15 affecting 101:9 126:16 affirmative 163:8 afford 152:15 afraid 262:13 against 56:20 65:2 84:13 109:11 156:16 agenda 51:2,3,4 ago 56:18 67:2 78:22 114:17 115:2 203:21 219:17 agreed 61:5 149:22 167:4,5 247:5 agreeing 167:10 agreement

7:16 66:20 99:2 166:17 168:18 169:3 177:4,22 244:8

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 4

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 agreements 169:16 Ah 97:15 ahead 7:4 8:12 112:19 161:11 189:14 198:13 AHRI 4:16 17:2,13 20:12 31:20 36:12,16 37:11 59:10,11,13,22 62:8,14,16 68:14 71:6 97:12,15,16 108:17,21 120:3,10 127:2 173:17 182:9,10 196:11,12,13 272:1 AHRI's 95:10 119:18 AHRI-type 83:19 aim 137:5 air 172:5 238:16,22 239:3 248:2,6,21 252:1 256:7 264:5 272:20 274:6,7,8 275:8,13,14 277:6 279:4 280:8 282:21 285:12,15 286:2 292:11,13,14,16, 18,19 293:8,19,21,22 294:18,20 295:1,2,8 297:1,3,5,6 299:15 300:1,7 302:4 306:15,18,19 307:8,10 308:9 309:3 313:19 317:9 325:7 327:12,17,19 333:4,17,19,20 Air-Conditioning 1:6 2:6,9 3:11 airflow 147:1 allay 68:4 70:5 Alligator 74:14,15,19 75:3,7 111:17 allow 6:4,5 150:20 197:1 237:2 245:9 252:7 261:16 279:3 allowance 173:18 allowed 5:19 6:9,14 156:2,13 157:15 182:17,18 189:8 allowing 6:12 allows 280:14 alluding 67:14 alone 305:3 already 8:2 14:17 61:14 109:16 113:8,10 130:17 174:21 180:12 186:14 216:6 225:18 247:5 257:17 325:19 326:2 alterative 251:18 266:10 alternate 229:7 alternative 150:22 161:6 alternatives 52:6 54:4 266:9 aluminum 230:13,14 237:2,12 248:5 250:21 251:5 252:2 257:22 259:20 am 11:1 16:21 17:18,22 32:4 34:14 42:22 46:12 48:7,10,12 49:11,20 50:9 64:19 75:21 76:15,17,18 82:18 83:6,13 96:11 101:9 165:12 178:7 193:22 197:17 198:10 201:11 287:22 337:7 338:2 339:2 340:2 341:2 American 3:8 among 221:11 amongst 70:17 amount 7:21 15:4 18:19 59:12 110:13 118:17 135:10 150:12 240:13 302:9 Amrane 2:6 6:9 11:2,4 34:20 50:21 51:3 57:3,5 58:13,19 66:7,12 68:15,19 69:9,12 70:4,6,12 71:6 72:21 91:22 92:18,20 93:7,11,14 94:9 105:15,20 107:5,8,10,12 109:3,8 122:16 133:15 134:4,15 138:6 141:8 162:9,12

171:16,20,22 174:3 179:2,6,9,12 180:7,9 181:9,13 183:13 186:20 187:5,11 188:11 202:12 216:22 217:5,11 219:13,18 221:15 223:4 225:7 227:5,11 235:5 236:6 237:14 239:1 240:20 260:21 261:3 271:13 272:5 275:12,16 276:2 280:1,2 281:21 282:3 284:10,13,19,22 285:4 286:1 289:6,14,18 290:1,7,10 291:2,5,18 297:9,12,15 300:14 302:18,22 303:9,15 304:4,9,22 305:4,8,17,19 307:11,14,16,18 312:4,9 316:18 317:1,4,12,19 318:6,12 321:5 332:15 335:20 analysis 30:4 86:1 142:1 157:7 260:13 307:2 320:10,14 anchor 137:15 and/or 248:15 292:17 Andy 327:22

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 5

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 animal 327:11 annual 174:18 175:15 anodizing 316:5 anomaly 38:21 136:10 answer 10:2 11:5 16:22 161:20 166:9 235:13 259:15 261:17 answered 165:7 331:15 antennas 21:5 anti-corrosive 313:17 antitrust 67:11 anybody 5:11 6:7,19,21 7:6 8:17 36:3 70:15 149:5 163:10,11 165:18 166:14,16,19 168:20 169:12 170:12 173:10,12 288:10,18 anybody's 93:17 anymore 177:18 anyone 16:22 52:13 61:12 97:21 171:8 206:10 243:15 263:4 anything 30:5 32:4 48:19 73:6 80:7,9 141:3 162:21 170:10 171:8 176:12 178:1 189:13 190:7 198:11 207:3 227:12 230:1 262:9 264:10 277:11 291:16 310:2,19 312:19 316:6 anything's 290:12 anyway 14:7 69:1 129:6 251:11 279:19 anywhere 113:12 242:4 243:12 310:16 apologize 168:8 apparent 267:22 apparently 121:7 appeal 45:20 46:3 Appeals 331:5 appear 159:2 appears 9:4 189:19 apples 59:22 Appliance 1:3 336:1 appliances 110:5 111:7 applicable 186:15 189:19 190:4,5 263:14 313:4,8 324:21 application 88:16 235:22 236:2 244:22 245:2 303:14 applications 251:22 268:19,21 277:22 278:3 303:18 311:22 320:5 applied 102:15 109:10,11 139:1 148:22 158:13 197:9 266:8 267:2 applies 187:3 194:11 199:4 apply 69:1 108:7 182:20 187:9 189:19 196:22 219:1 312:17 appreciate 88:3 135:3 137:22 appreciated 68:2 approach 100:7 250:19 270:11 approaches 196:19 appropriate 125:10 154:3 261:20 268:17 311:7 appropriately 33:22 34:1 approval 143:8 154:18 157:9 approved 133:7 229:11 approving 156:22 157:1 area 53:3 181:2,3,22 186:15 189:18,21 190:3 193:6 198:7 211:10 212:7 215:20 221:7 230:12 320:19 322:20 323:15 areas 256:3 287:11 303:20 317:1

aren't 37:22 89:21 98:17 113:20 263:22 268:18 269:9 295:4 argue 258:6 301:10 arguing 156:16 argument 53:20 236:18 Aris 3:2 5:6 245:6 arithmetic 213:20 Arlington 1:9 arose 67:2 arrangement 279:2,10 280:11 Ashley 5:3 7:20 20:1 57:19 164:21 188:15 201:14 258:9 271:11 272:7 aside 28:19 216:9 aspect 77:11 85:21 ASRAC 7:13,22 12:4 49:1 71:13 91:12 92:2,12,22 163:2 165:12 166:15,16 170:13 300:22 assembly 135:11 274:3 292:16 298:6,10,17 321:11 assign 20:7 assigned 191:12 associated 34:16 71:16 associating 111:16

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 6

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 assume 32:4 57:22 96:7 143:6 200:4 220:20 assumed 23:16 98:20 assuming 84:16 92:21 99:12 110:4 117:17 161:22 177:4 200:15 assumption 77:11 99:17 137:13 172:9 202:13 204:13 assumptions 72:16 assurance 18:20 67:15 88:17 asterisk 106:4 123:14 234:4 243:15 269:12,13,14 asterisks 106:7,10 123:15 140:2 225:15 231:18 232:7,12 attention 91:8 140:22 246:12 attributes 245:9 audible 6:13 7:8 auditorium 256:2 aunt 73:10 authority 153:22 154:2,17 157:20 260:9 authorization 154:6,12 157:11 authorize 143:11 authorized 160:19 automatic 130:21 276:16,20 279:3 280:12,13,15 automatically 274:4 276:8,9,13 277:1 auxiliary 299:19 305:11 available 85:10 88:9 113:21 223:13 230:6 262:7 277:20 287:10,14 301:12 average 191:15 avoids 317:17 away 28:20 163:19 257:8 awful 89:22 334:4 awfully 158:8 awkward 279:18 B baby 5:3 backing 257:4 back-slid ing 318:4 backup 57:17 67:17 bad 14:18 15:12 36:22 64:2,8,11,12,15, 18 65:19 67:9,12,16,21 113:1 131:21 132:2,18,19 133:11 136:11 137:12,13 143:22 148:1 150:15 153:21 155:6,7 253:22 badly 26:15

baffle 113:16 baffles 113:3 bailed 86:2 Bakery 4:9 balance 133:3 272:22 balances 89:6 ballasts 195:1 ballistic 228:18 Ballo 2:8 25:21 60:14,19 133:19 134:2 135:3 136:1 137:22 158:6 159:7,14 160:1,5 BALLOW 270:16 271:4,9 bandwidth 68:6 bar 121:9 Barhydt 2:10 4:16 10:1,3,6,12,17,2 1 11:1,15,18 12:1 13:20 15:22 16:3,9,11,21 17:10 18:22 19:4 21:7 22:20 23:2 24:3,13,18 25:4,9 26:6,17 27:2,7 28:5,9,14,16 29:22 30:3 31:22 32:3,22 33:9,13,21 34:1,3,8,13,17,2 2 37:2,6 39:14 40:9,13,15,18 41:9,18 42:8 43:8,11,15 44:1,12,16,19 45:14 46:2,15

47:6,15,20,22 48:9,11,18,21 49:4,10,12,17,22 50:4 51:2 52:13 54:2,12,19,21 55:15,20 56:2,6,10,14 57:14,20 58:2,5 62:19 63:12,21 64:3,16 66:10,17 71:12,17 72:3,12,17,20 73:1 74:8 75:11,14,18 80:13,17 83:21 84:4,6,10 91:7,10,18 92:1,6 94:2,16,21 95:4,8 96:8,11 97:4,6,9,11,17,2 0 98:13 100:6,15,18 101:4,11 102:1 104:12,20 105:1,6 106:7,11,20 108:10,12,15,20 109:20 110:8 111:9,13,18,21 112:2,9,16 117:17 118:6 119:12,17,20 120:5,20 121:4,7,15 122:6,9,19,21 123:3 126:20,22 127:2,4 129:18,21 130:2 131:16 132:12,20 133:8,17,22 138:9 139:8 142:18

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 7

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 144:15,21 145:3,10 146:5,12,16 147:10,16 148:2,4,7,19 149:12,15,22 152:7 154:10 155:18 156:22 157:10,13 158:10 159:10,13,18 160:6,9,15,18 161:3,9 162:8,11,13,19 164:1,9 166:2,5 168:4 170:19,22 171:2,19,21 172:1,11,15,22 173:5,9 174:2,4 176:10 178:17,22 179:4,8 180:1,13 181:3,12,21 182:5,9,12,14 183:4,11,17,21 184:3,11 185:9 187:6 188:8,12,14 189:13 190:1,7 195:5,10,17 196:6,10 199:16,19,21 200:3,10,16 201:3,6,9,11,18 202:6,9,16,21 204:14,17 206:13,16,21 207:15 209:11,16 210:1,10,14 214:20 215:4 216:4,20 217:4,7,10,14,19 218:15 220:4 221:17,21 222:5,21 223:6,10 224:6,9,19 227:3 228:9,12,15,19 229:3,21 230:16,22 231:4,6 232:18 233:2,6,20 234:9,15 236:11,13 237:1,7,13,15,20 238:21 239:5,19 240:5 241:8,10,18 244:5 246:7 249:12 253:2,6,12,15 254:6,21 255:1,7,21 256:10 263:4,8 264:3,19 265:3,5,10 270:15,21 271:7 272:4,10 273:15 276:17 286:7,12,18,22 287:4 289:11,16,19 290:3,19 293:1,4 295:13,22 296:2 298:13,19 300:16,20 301:2,8 302:6,11 326:3,11,20 330:18 331:2,11,19 332:2,7,13,17 333:3 barrel 177:18 base 37:13 46:18 199:19 203:9 254:15 270:5 based 15:5 17:2 36:13 41:9,10 47:9 60:11 69:17 83:5 110:11 111:1 116:20,22 117:15 128:15 133:6 136:2 144:7 155:21 157:19 171:9 182:11 190:2,3 193:2 199:7,13 200:17,21 202:13,14 204:12 224:22 235:9 245:10 251:11 254:16,22 277:19 307:1 332:2 basic 10:6,11 11:4,20,21 13:6,17 14:4,5,20 20:15,18 23:11,13,17,21 24:5,7,9 25:6,19 30:21 37:18 55:18 56:4 58:22 71:8 73:19 75:21 76:1,17 81:10,11 82:4 99:3,4,12,14 100:10,12 102:8,9,19,20 103:8,11,16,22 104:5,7,9,11,14, 16,22 105:18 117:18 123:16 124:8 142:8 145:13,19 146:2,4,15,21 147:5 151:1 160:13,22 161:1,5,10 164:15 165:9 166:2,4,5 170:20 171:1,3

172:9,13,16 173:2,13 176:3,4,6 177:1,2,11 178:19 179:15 180:5 181:13 182:21 183:2,5,9,10,12, 20,21 184:1,7,9,13 185:10 188:22 190:10,22 191:1 192:17,21 195:7,20,22 196:1,4,21 199:4,8,11,17,18 200:5,12,14,16,2 0,21 201:1,8 202:2,8 203:17,18 208:20,22 209:4 210:9,11 213:14 214:16,17,18,20 215:6 218:19 220:13,15 221:1,6,9 223:11 225:6 226:16 227:10,13 230:8 235:17 237:3 240:16,19 256:16 303:17 314:22 315:13,14 332:3 basically 9:11 40:18 41:3 46:17 58:8 72:5 75:15 103:3,6 121:10 146:18 148:20 152:13 157:13,16 166:8 167:4 182:15 190:16 195:18 242:21 252:21

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 8

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 281:2 293:6 299:13 304:6,10 basing 199:6 basis 14:6 22:5 38:1 39:1 181:6 185:21 209:22 265:18 basket 29:7 100:14 batch 86:3 bated 236:10 Bauman 2:9 35:9 37:4,9 38:16 42:21 43:10,14,22 44:3,17,21 45:18 57:10,15,21 58:3 80:20 127:7 131:20 132:14,22 133:9,16 166:21 167:9,17 168:7 195:19 196:7 210:12,15 212:8,11,13,17 214:13,22 215:9 216:8 Bear 111:17 beat 67:4 beating 114:20 become 212:21 216:17 becomes 44:22 100:12 122:3 136:8,9 153:11 176:2 281:3,6 331:10 becoming 302:18,20 bed 273:11 begin 83:4 218:14 beginning 12:8 15:9 35:21 58:21 59:1 79:2 80:2 93:12 246:14beginning-of-theyear 36:15 behind 4:3 7:4 75:22 believe 64:21 166:18 197:8 246:19 bells 76:20 77:18,21 123:21 belong 296:11 belongs 205:3 290:13 benefit 208:13 244:21 245:2 251:12 270:1 306:9 besides 323:20 best 88:15 93:17 better 26:15 36:8,14,17 37:13 45:12 105:8 111:15 112:3 136:15 148:10 197:18 228:6,7,11,13,17 ,20 246:22 250:9,21,22 257:20,22 279:12 288:21 289:3 317:6,7,8 beyond 27:19 67:9 bifurcation 280:13 bigger 52:2 55:12 81:19 90:12 121:13 266:11 269:6

biggest 64:16 bit 6:17 13:15 35:19 36:2 44:4,12 53:2 73:16 87:4 119:3 211:15 213:10 220:12 251:4 262:2 266:6 309:8 329:11 black 204:6,8 bladders 274:18 blades 283:1,4 blanks 92:2,5,7,9 178:6,11 blends 308:15 blower 305:7 blowers 85:11,16 Blvd 1:7 board 298:14 boardroom 90:6 boat 73:15 82:4 Bob 12:20 139:20 151:21 275:5 287:7 288:11 boiled 233:3,8 boiler 9:1,8,9,13,14 10:4 73:22 boilers 8:22 105:5 bolded 300:22 bolt 283:22 288:22 329:2 bolts 88:5 booked 39:6 bordered 309:3 bottom 23:2 104:9 310:14

bought 335:5 bound 137:8 box 20:5 153:16 165:12 262:14 266:21 284:1 298:17 boy 86:7 305:18 brainwashed 89:20 brand 174:1,3,4,6 brands 222:6,11 break 50:9 70:17 127:11 140:11,13,15,20 244:12 246:6,9 breath 236:10 BRF 242:15 brick 93:17 brief 71:3 246:10 bring 39:3 48:5 64:6,7 98:6 109:14 115:9 116:10 153:6 299:22 327:17 brings 275:14 broad 81:15 138:12 153:18 214:3 293:5 broader 262:10 broadest 215:7 broke 150:18 Brooks 138:11 brought 116:2,18 117:2 264:22 brush 214:3 B's 177:10

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 9

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 BTUH 243:11 budget 22:1 51:9,20 52:20 60:5,6,12,16 81:13 121:13 150:3 209:8,9 budgets 44:22 build 64:17 128:2,3 152:15 154:21 174:13 177:17 193:13 203:10,12 235:17 282:1 285:9 building 4:10 176:15,22 266:8,11 274:6 278:9,11 283:19 292:19 305:13 306:20 312:21 buildings 285:9 built 17:5 45:16 58:6 127:4 152:12,16 built-to 85:5 bullet 218:8 309:18 334:22 bullets 309:3 335:19 bunch 52:6 77:12 211:21 333:11 burden 150:6 183:6 business 90:15,16 120:12 124:11 162:1 216:2 businesses 87:13,14 buy 120:20 258:11 267:3 270:6 324:13

buying 53:11 231:15 bypass 272:19 297:20 bypassed 270:20 C cabinet 188:20 215:20 calculate 182:6 214:1 calculating 180:18 calculation 304:10 calendar 6:20 7:1,7,10 20:4 35:22 36:10,13,20 37:13,18 38:9,11 39:1,4 58:18,19 59:20 cap 69:21 capability 118:15 capacitor 265:13 267:15,17 272:16 capacitors 264:22 265:12,20 266:7,21 267:4,6 268:21 270:19 272:21 capacity 51:19 146:4,7 152:5 192:20 218:18 219:3 240:17 241:4 242:16 282:11 Capital 1:18 capture 214:6 325:8 captures 325:15 carbon/hydrogen 9:11 card 5:12 106:11 cards 4:20 care 32:14 55:22 56:1,3 61:1 70:1 98:2 154:20 198:10 214:12 234:11 274:9 310:8,10 329:7 career 89:15 careful 241:7 Carrier 3:15 12:21 172:14 275:6 287:7 case 10:10 30:8,11 33:5 44:17 78:10 84:22 111:11 112:21 113:4 133:6 154:14 156:20 175:2,5 177:13 179:16 181:10 185:19,20 190:11,13 191:7 194:8 195:2,3 196:14,15 197:1,2,3,4,5,6,1 3,14,15,16,19,20 ,21 198:1,14 200:7 204:15 211:2,12 212:8 213:19 220:19 230:14 241:15 260:5 263:14 270:10 287:3,8 306:3 308:16 329:4 331:17 cases 185:2 190:14 191:6 192:11 193:14 194:20 199:14 209:1,8,9 210:4,7,19 213:9 216:16 230:5 251:4 Cat 111:17 catalogs 225:13 catalogues 184:15 catch 127:15 128:10 catching 65:20 categorize 273:16 category 191:6 214:3 215:16 264:1 322:17 cause 96:14 141:22 142:21,22 143:2,13 146:18 251:7 252:1 caused 78:3 250:11 265:21 causes 23:18 142:20 268:11 269:1 causing 35:7 142:2 147:8 299:17,18 305:12 caustic 256:8 certain 7:21 9:1 14:4 18:19 58:22 108:7 129:2 142:4 143:3 162:13 207:22 215:15 251:21 269:22 certainly 86:13 172:8 221:4

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 10

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 certainty 91:16 CERTIFICATE 337:1 338:1 339:1 340:1 341:1 certificated 304:12 certification 34:18 58:14,15 105:12,14 120:11 160:21 161:11,14 173:21 200:5,17 209:19 210:2,3 229:18 certifications 157:17 certified 13:18 14:5 20:18 25:5 161:12 189:3 195:22 certify 36:16 82:21 120:13 178:18 195:19,20 196:1 210:10 337:4 338:2 339:2 340:2 341:2 certifying 79:13 157:19 176:17 210:4 224:22 cetera 154:5 241:1 245:19 CFM 239:1,15 chain 112:12 113:7,8,12 114:19 115:4 135:7 chair 12:18 Chairman 12:12 challenge 68:15,16 169:3 170:3 198:12

challenged 168:12 chambers 285:8 chance 43:5 139:15 chances 50:19 65:14 142:16 156:9 change 23:2 29:11,20 30:12 31:3,11 60:13 73:21 75:22 80:6,10,13 81:1 135:18 144:9 154:10 178:1 191:15 192:20 206:13 210:3 213:5 216:18 251:1 267:2 270:13 272:1 273:12 289:20 306:12 310:4,15 316:17 318:7 321:5 changed 29:8 32:13,14,18 76:2 77:15 78:13 129:9 changes 6:19 163:3 173:19 175:16,21 211:8 306:4 changing 76:4 285:6 297:8 302:22 303:1 channel 68:6 230:6 232:13 238:14 character 50:6 characteristic 242:17 characteristics 188:9 191:20 194:15 195:4 216:14,18 240:7 characterization 189:17 characterize 249:6,7 280:19 311:5 322:5 335:13 charger 235:11 Charles 2:16 263:20 Charlie 50:5 51:8,9 52:18 64:1 67:13 108:1,2 109:4 207:19 213:17 214:14 215:1,13 263:21 chart 12:18 33:19 34:11 52:11,16 60:15 69:17 90:2 97:13 99:3 101:18 131:13 163:1,7,10,12,13 166:13 170:12 247:9 cheat 215:10 cheating 127:10 check 29:15 32:7 38:12 66:3 81:17 137:2 188:15 270:4 checking 29:22 34:15,20 76:21 77:2 120:1 157:4 check-out 334:3 checks 89:6,7 111:12 158:16

checkup 61:18 chemicals 252:1 320:9 chillers 269:2,4,5,9 chlorine 256:7,9 choice 23:20 28:21 205:7 choices 127:1 131:2 choose 14:14,15 117:21,22 chooses 272:20 chose 55:17 304:1 chosen 15:3 chuck 215:7 chunk 74:17,21 churning 194:18 circling 95:2 circumstance 29:5,6 136:8 154:15 circumstances 155:3 claim 221:7 claims 66:5 clamp 268:9 clarification 100:9 158:1 166:22 229:22 clarified 214:14 clarify 186:6 class 56:4 145:2,6 146:8,11 147:15,20 150:11

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 11

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 158:18,21 159:2 183:19,22 205:4 213:7,8 259:16,22 260:4 262:22 268:20 269:10 290:13,19 296:11 306:14,21,22 317:13,17,22 324:21 328:3 330:11 331:9,11 335:1 classes 11:16 14:2,3 106:19 144:14,15 145:8 147:13 150:14 152:3 158:14,15,16,20 183:19 191:11 260:22 261:10 263:13 292:1 305:22 306:1,2 313:8 316:12 317:20 318:15,16 classification 309:17 328:8 class-specific 152:5 clause 161:21 cleaning 296:4 clear 84:15 102:20 138:1 156:17 161:19 167:10 203:22 221:5 237:22 245:4 246:19 256:16 317:19 327:22 clear-cut 218:10 clearly 11:10 100:1 140:17 172:19 256:19

Cleaver 138:11 Cleaver-Brooks 3:3 client 231:14 269:21 climate 284:16 303:2 climates 282:15 clock 43:1,5,13 79:5,11 close 212:9 225:16 263:8 closer 108:1 256:6 closing 323:4 clothes 213:12 clump 326:19 Co 2:19 3:4 coast 317:6 320:18 coated 232:13 233:13 235:1 260:1 308:5 313:12,14 314:6,13 315:6,8,12,17 316:4,9 317:21 coating 257:15,16,19 314:1 316:5,10 317:3 coatings 260:1 320:11,15 code 4:7 73:8 74:12,14,17,21 75:21 76:1 81:19 284:12 286:3,9 302:22 codes 278:9 coffee 4:3,5 coil 134:17,20 135:13,15 147:2 232:1,14,16,17 237:18 238:14,15 248:6,14,15,21 251:5 254:13 255:8,18 256:4 257:17 258:4,13 308:8,16 309:4,20 310:3,5 313:14,21 314:15,20 317:9 320:6,15 321:12,19 coils 67:6 192:2 218:5,6 230:2,6 233:13 235:1 236:11 238:3,5,6 240:6,8 241:1 247:21,22 248:5 256:17 260:4 263:18 308:6,7 313:12 314:6,13 317:22 325:18 cold 188:10 279:5 collapsed 188:21 collect 209:17 colorful 87:11 column 13:13 19:22 21:14,15 61:4,6 93:21 106:15,21 115:20 117:3,7 120:19 121:6 122:1 123:6 124:5,19 140:8 columns 20:7 21:13 24:16 94:1,3 120:19 combination 250:12 305:2

combinations 19:9,10,16 55:4,8 122:12,13 123:1 combine 180:4 304:14 combined 296:21 305:7 combustion 73:22 comes 17:19 23:22 42:10 73:13 137:2,4 197:18 264:13 330:13 comfort 65:5 332:22 333:1 comfortable 19:5 21:14 45:6,8 50:9 61:7,15 152:17 166:7 comical 98:1 coming 4:20 32:2 53:17 74:19 75:6 79:7 95:13,22 176:5,13 274:10 291:11 302:18 308:15 comment 6:6,10 92:14 93:5,7 128:12,13 167:11,15 168:19 169:8,15 230:4 236:19 244:15 246:15,18 314:18 commentary 87:12 comments 5:20 6:7 8:20 12:10

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 12

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 107:22 115:19 141:2 145:9 155:9 158:4 161:16 164:19,21 167:5,16 169:19,20 244:14 250:17 263:19 328:20 commerce 115:12 commercial 10:3 23:5,8 28:1 51:22 55:10 59:17 72:22 85:9,18 89:1 153:19 172:5 179:7 186:13 220:9 264:3 322:20 commercially 202:5 commissioning 138:16 139:2 committee 1:4 5:17 7:18 8:14 169:7 177:15 336:3 commodities 88:4 common 215:18 218:3,7 241:3,5 243:15 300:6 communicating 111:15 companies 51:12 99:20 198:18 company 1:18 38:3,5 54:10 65:6 85:16 137:13 177:10,17 208:16 214:4 company's 177:2

comparable 218:4,5 219:14 221:18,22 222:10,16,17 227:19,21 228:5 230:16,20 238:2,21 239:22 241:1,2 compared 59:11,14 125:2 143:4 comparing 120:19 compatible 193:4 compensate 133:16 competitive 90:12 compiled 258:20 complaints 64:5,11 complete 39:4 338:7 339:7 340:7 341:7 completed 39:13 155:15 completely 63:20,21 73:9,15 84:14 119:5 122:2 153:22 189:17 201:18 203:7 207:17 completion 47:15,17,18 complex 126:1,6 complexity 24:17 compliance 71:19 177:15 197:19 198:8 209:15 compliant 64:22 complicated 23:19 94:4 233:17 271:15 complication 88:19 comply 197:21 component 77:13 113:1 131:22 132:3,5,9,17,21 133:4,11,20 134:5,12 139:4 238:5 components 85:5,16 87:20 89:9 133:2,5 136:17,22 193:14 240:8 245:14 298:15 302:17 325:5 334:8 compress 62:16 145:14 compressor 35:6 77:6 192:2,20 221:18,22 222:12 227:17,20 228:21 229:6,7 241:1 256:18 323:21 335:6 compressors 193:7 226:1,15 240:5,7 comprisable 230:9 computer 81:11 217:22 concept 30:17 57:15 74:10 75:10 99:4 102:8 193:5 216:10 304:14 concepts 207:14,18

conceptual 17:12 conceptually 15:5 26:14 210:2,14 concern 18:4 19:20 24:13,19,20 40:5 42:8 51:11 60:18,19 64:16 70:20 86:17 102:21 121:13 136:2 154:20 158:6 159:13 188:6 193:20 220:16 301:5 314:7,13,17 323:2,13 324:3,4 concerned 18:16 33:16 57:13 137:20 165:6 186:6 194:2 198:16 concerning 8:21 60:3 concerns 22:13 38:8 68:4 71:2 120:16 133:1,11 141:6 247:3 260:20 concluded 43:7 335:18 condenser 232:17 237:18 247:22 248:15 254:13 263:18 308:14 313:14 condensing 218:5 230:2 condition 240:4 252:7 285:17 297:3

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 13

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 conditioner 248:7,21 272:20 333:4,17 conditioning 264:5 334:10 conditions 77:8 96:5 100:4 227:22 277:17,20 278:2 279:17,20 280:8 284:15 297:20 299:17 309:1 310:20 conduct 155:13,19 156:1 conducted 47:4 81:22 82:1 conducting 206:20 conference 49:7 confidence 82:11 confident 17:21 configurations 103:1 confirm 28:22 57:18 confirmed 57:18 conflate 215:5 confused 48:10 49:11 191:18 confusing 144:12 confusion 54:16 193:19,21 194:1 connected 267:6 connection 265:14 connectivity 257:20 consecutive 36:17 125:18,19 consensus 221:11

consequence 26:9 121:3,4,20 145:21 consequences 20:16 30:10,16 89:20 106:17 110:3 116:6,13,21 118:7 120:18 129:13 130:14 137:19 142:11 consider 52:17 98:19 190:22 259:9 consideration 162:20 182:22 considered 37:22 174:1 214:16 226:2 294:17 consistent 99:4,14 102:8 169:16 172:4 194:4 constant 41:3 190:9,15,17,19,2 1 191:9 194:9,12 constantly 28:13,15 53:20 83:9 constitutes 238:21 constraints 48:15 51:20 Consultants 2:15 Consulting 2:3 consumers 128:22 129:6 consumption 129:1 179:20 180:14,15,16 182:1,3 183:1 185:14 186:6,10,11,22 187:5,6,7,14,17 189:2 191:21 195:11,14 198:4 199:9,11,13 209:4 211:4,11,13 213:3 229:9 239:4 contactors 274:22 contain 19:9 contained 50:8 54:18 55:13 101:2 containment 55:4 contains 19:16 content 157:1 325:7 contentious 257:6 context 95:9 262:2 continent 73:16 contingent 71:7 continually 51:13 continue 58:12 continued 26:2 continuing 113:17 continuity 250:22 continuous 314:1 continuously 274:5 contract 59:13 contracting 59:16 contractor 53:12 contractual 177:4 control 17:17 31:5 33:9 86:9,11 96:4 143:16 149:5 220:14 266:12 269:4 279:3 286:1 298:14 299:1 324:8 controlled 144:4 controls 133:12 276:8,9,16 280:13 convenience 235:20 convergence 48:7 conversation 258:9 318:11 Conversely 292:12 convince 132:16 cool 275:7 cooling 2:14 146:9 218:18 219:3 240:17 241:4 275:8 278:21 279:3,5,16 309:9,11,13 326:14,15 332:21 333:18 334:11,17 COP 249:20 copies 5:18 163:18 copper 24:22 230:14 232:14 237:1,12 238:15 247:21 248:3,5,7,13,14, 22 250:20,22 251:3,7 254:13 255:5,8,17 256:3 257:22 258:4 259:18 260:4 263:6,17 264:8

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 14

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 317:22 coppers 318:16 copy 163:15,16 217:16,17 core 68:20,21 229:2 257:17 Corey 3:14 5:5 corner 4:9 12:14 Corporation 3:10,15 correct 13:12 26:13 29:1,2 34:13 66:9 70:12 107:4 131:15 138:20 139:5 185:6 193:1 194:16,19 204:5 205:5 265:20 287:22 305:4 338:7 339:7 340:7 341:7 corrected 142:5 correcting 220:16 correction 264:21 265:11,20 266:7,21 267:20 270:19 corrective 142:3 143:1 correctly 135:12,13 155:12 corrects 269:21 corresponding 20:7 corrosion 248:3 251:21 252:1 260:6 314:2 corrosive 259:17 318:16 Cosi 4:10 cost 149:21 151:10 198:18 252:17,21,22 253:1,3 259:18,19 263:1,3,12 costly 151:1 costs 53:14 90:10 Council 3:8 count 45:21 47:18 84:13 106:12 251:1 counted 103:5 111:7 country 26:19 85:13 86:7 317:2 counts 46:22 couple 4:18 12:21 16:8 52:10 89:18 119:21 158:15,16 165:4 251:15 281:14 301:18 335:8 course 37:21,22 318:2 court 168:13 169:4 337:1,2,15 338:3,5 339:3,5 340:3,5 341:3,5 cover 19:14 55:8 81:16 173:6 249:14 251:14 293:1,7 310:6 323:14 covered 29:7 30:22 51:21 53:8 99:5,6 116:3 138:12 150:14 234:16,18

269:10 293:9 313:22 325:11,18 covering 33:7 106:18 215:15 220:5 321:19 covers 116:5,15,16 121:18,21 122:11,20 125:14 181:4 226:21 230:3 282:21 291:21 321:11 323:5 cracks 51:14 crafted 11:7 crashing 267:4 CRE 179:11,12,13 187:15,18 188:10 189:13 190:2,7 196:1 207:10 210:18 212:9 217:8 create 35:12 64:19 69:20 81:2 110:6 252:20 316:11 created 172:12 218:9 259:16 creating 226:9 256:19 credit 260:12 261:14,22 287:1 308:19 credits 260:10 261:11 CREs 183:19 236:15 criminal 34:22 criteria 13:18 99:9,19 102:12,14,15,16 108:10 208:2 cross-section 185:5 Crosstalk

5:9 crummy 136:4 cubic 214:8 215:15 current 180:6 196:10 222:22 265:17,21 268:7,11 currently 65:12 66:3 70:6 180:4 301:11 curve 259:18 custom 85:5 custom-built 112:7 113:11 customer 128:21 138:20 211:20 231:17 260:5 customers 305:10 328:14 329:14 332:19 334:16 customer's 153:5 customized 61:11 cut 73:5 135:1 256:16 cutoff 56:16,19 cycle 155:16,22 265:19 Cymbalsky 2:11 5:2,10 51:7 52:21 53:5,8,11 57:8 92:3,5,10 93:5,9,12,15 160:4 165:9 217:18,20 224:12 225:2

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 15

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 314:11 315:13 318:4 D dah 243:12 Daikin 2:20 damage 138:19 139:4 321:13,20 damaged 134:12 283:5 damper 245:13 279:2,6,7 280:11 283:1 dampers 274:3,4,16,21 275:11,22 276:1,5 282:21 301:5 Dane 2:12 dang 323:22 darn 86:14 206:15 data 11:8 46:18 68:11 79:8 83:6 95:7,10 96:12,20 97:2,3 98:8,10,11 108:6,7 109:13 110:6,20 111:15 112:4 119:18,21,22 129:19 143:18 146:1 158:3 198:22 291:7 318:18,21 database 189:1 199:2 225:14 231:10 243:9 date 42:6 46:6 47:18 338:13 339:12 340:11 341:14

dates 42:3 day 33:15 47:5,19 65:1 88:8 89:4 129:4,5 213:4 215:15 316:18 days 36:21 44:14 63:2,3,4 110:14 124:1 136:11 297:21 dead 333:13 deadlines 110:9 deal 48:1 64:18 116:15,17 117:20 270:9 271:1,2 331:3 dealing 67:4 306:18 dealt 54:13 death 158:11 162:4 debris 321:20 debugging 138:17 139:3 decide 6:3 7:17 17:15 58:11 154:2 decided 219:6 decision 90:15,17 216:2 277:19 decision-making 153:22 declare 80:1 82:7 declared 83:1,3 decrease 251:10 319:17 decreasing 282:11 313:18 dedicated 307:8,9

deemed 40:7 41:16 default 160:20 defective 132:8,17,21 133:4,20,22 134:5,9 139:4 defend 108:9 deficiency 138:18 139:7 227:12,14 245:1 318:9 define 53:18 64:2 82:15 100:13 106:15 107:3 110:2 118:19 123:13 134:9 138:7 182:2 201:8,22 230:18 244:4,5 defined 59:5,6,7 61:11,17 62:4 90:20 101:17 144:16 180:21 185:1 191:2 196:12,13 239:10,11 265:15 292:19 defines 181:7 defining 184:9 199:11 203:17 208:20 260:4 319:11 definitely 44:7 110:17 293:12 definition 10:6 23:18,22 24:5,7 71:9 99:3 100:21 102:7 124:8 133:15 144:13,20 147:6 164:15 171:17 172:17,21

181:14 182:18 184:13 187:12 196:22 199:4,8 200:12,13,14 201:1,10,11,15 202:8 203:17 209:5 216:22 218:17 219:3,15 221:10 222:22 224:21 225:12 227:7,8 229:6 242:15 244:6 245:4,15 247:20 248:2 265:12,19 266:1,7 273:20 274:3,12 275:18 276:3 277:5 278:13,22 279:12,22 292:9,21 293:5,16 294:8 296:20 297:10,13 310:16 312:1 313:13 315:22 321:8 323:1,17 325:5,13 326:1 335:16 definitions 99:6,13 146:3 171:4,9,13,16,22 173:2,7,11,13 178:5,11 181:18 193:16 220:17 246:2 249:10 293:7 295:14 301:1 definition's 294:5 degradation 262:7,11 degree 15:3 degrees 283:5

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 16

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 284:19 327:17 dehumidification 256:5 325:5 333:8,14 dehumidifier 326:6 327:6 333:17 334:6 335:5 dehumidifiers 308:15 delay 39:10 44:7 46:9 delays 36:12 delete 119:11,12 deleted 130:11 225:14 265:5 deliver 61:12 62:21 63:4 delving 30:3 demand 269:1 demanding 277:18 Department

1:1 2:10,11 3:2,7,14 5:15 47:7 64:18 91:13 118:16,21 202:22 226:7 271:21 331:12,13 Department's 110:10,20 depend 44:22 55:13 81:15 dependent 277:8 depending 20:14 24:5 84:14 100:12 117:14 142:8 182:13 194:22 250:19 294:7 309:2 318:21

depends 16:13,14 23:10,21 31:14 55:3 105:1 223:4 279:17 286:15 301:17 316:1 318:21 320:7 331:6 derived 225:5,6 descet 301:21,22 describe 233:16 243:18 245:18 261:16 334:9 described 231:9 245:11 315:22 describes 74:6 77:7 describing 74:8 301:19 description 30:22 211:3 246:2,3 331:21 334:9 descriptions 244:18 descriptor 238:1 deserves 121:20 Deshawn 179:14 desiccant 326:10 327:6 328:1 desiccants 325:8 design 173:18 175:4,6,10 176:22 223:13 257:3 301:18 designed 258:13 designs 11:9 245:16 301:18,19 destroyed 319:19

detail 220:1 246:21 detailed 234:2 details 69:14 detained 229:13 determination 42:18 43:12,21 46:4 63:6,13 120:22 130:10 131:11 135:9 136:2 determination's 136:6 determine 211:4 230:20 245:9 determined 82:9 develop 33:20 118:8 131:8 developed 107:14 156:14 developing 48:4 156:8,11 Development 3:3 device 219:14,19,22 275:1,3,4,21 276:15,16,22 279:10 280:13 294:9 298:21 306:3 307:2 devices 221:2 275:10 292:10 devise 300:6 DFDs 266:2 diagram 48:4 dialing 314:10 Diane 2:19 33:18 78:1 87:1 88:18 287:22 dice 215:5,8 dichotomy 88:2 dictates 88:20 die 251:7 died 114:17 dies 75:16,17 difference 9:1,7 11:11 59:9 162:1 195:21 196:7 211:1 226:12 227:6 302:6,7 326:8 different 6:22 10:11 11:19 14:2 19:14 20:15 24:5,22 25:1 26:4 34:11,19 35:8 50:17 59:12 73:8,9,13 74:7 79:14 83:8 85:11 88:5 89:3,5 95:1 96:16 97:11 99:6 102:15,16 103:19 106:17 111:22 112:11 115:17 116:20,22 118:1 119:13,16 122:2,15 128:5 129:4 145:11 146:3,4 147:13 158:13 171:19 174:5 176:4,6 179:21,22 180:5,15 181:5 183:2,3,4,12,16 184:16 185:1,14 186:7,19 188:20 190:1,12,17 191:8,9,11

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 17

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 192:8,9,16,22 193:6,7,8 194:5,10 195:2,7 196:12 197:9 199:10 200:6 201:1 202:7 208:1 209:13 210:7,8,10 211:6,7,16 213:14,15 215:6 218:20 221:1,2 222:3,6 223:16,20,22 226:1,10,11 232:15,20 233:13 243:19 260:16,18 262:4 268:10 274:19,20 275:19 287:5 289:14,15 290:1 291:5 294:1 298:2,5 303:21 327:11 330:11 335:2 differential 134:20 316:13 differentiations 225:11 differently 10:18,19 112:17 168:21 180:2 difficult 14:8 98:17 104:21 142:9 217:13 257:6 272:22 286:17,18 290:6 difficulty 93:22 diffuse 302:17 digging 129:21 digit 232:12,17 Digital 337:15 digits 225:12 232:2 dimensions 321:10 diode 97:15 dip 257:18 direct 250:20 292:17 directed 8:9 direction 68:8 294:12,14 337:6 directly 149:4 disagrees 169:12 discharge 229:10 disconnected 273:3,5,6,8,10 discounting 128:6 discovered 78:3 discretion 117:20 154:1,7,13,19 158:7,22 159:15 161:22 discuss 24:12 61:5 66:18 95:8,13 117:4 139:17 179:10 217:9 246:21 251:16 discussed 24:11 139:9 166:14 247:4 261:21 263:12 291:9 discussing 180:11 discussion 22:10 23:12,22 30:21 38:2,8 54:3 58:12 61:9 66:19 71:10 94:16,17 95:22 96:17 98:16 99:16 106:5 108:13,22 130:18 133:1 135:4 136:9 142:12 148:21 149:1,4 150:5 199:7 201:7 202:7,12,18 229:22 233:21 235:15 236:7,8 251:15 258:20 289:15 290:2 304:15,18 discussions 36:11 37:11 42:17 131:1,21 132:2,16 199:5 200:19 262:10 disintegrates 256:9 dismantle 289:4 display 179:16 181:2,3,22 185:2 186:15 189:18,21 190:3,14 191:6,7 192:11 193:6,14 194:20 196:14,15 197:13 198:6 211:10 212:7 disposal 131:10 dissenting 168:11 dissimilar 248:4 256:8 distinct 99:9 102:12 108:10 117:19 distinction 34:4 193:11 distinctions 218:10

distributed 85:13 distribution 86:16 288:12 diverge 176:7 diversity 23:6,7 divide 198:3 divided 265:16 division 213:21 document 42:5 53:18 149:2 155:4 164:8 166:13 247:6 249:7 280:18,20 325:14 335:14 documentation 74:6 175:6 documented 137:19 documents 5:18 6:4 DOE 6:17,20 7:17 8:11 9:5 13:15 15:19 17:19 18:6,16 21:2,17,19 22:3 26:14 30:13 36:14 41:21 48:14 50:11 52:10,19 54:14 59:10,15 60:1,10,11,22 61:17 62:11 65:11 66:1 67:5,16 68:7,14 69:21 70:15 81:13 82:1 87:3,9 88:14 95:4,5,12 96:3,12 97:2

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 18

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98:6 104:5 105:14,22 109:13 114:15 115:10,14,15 120:20 123:20 125:6,11 127:15 129:17 132:2 135:7 136:9 138:2 139:1 143:7,12 149:5 150:6 153:2,22 154:1,5,11,12 156:20 157:8,11 158:7 159:15 160:18 161:22 164:7 167:7 168:18 169:7 182:10 185:1 188:22 189:2 198:12 201:2 206:11 208:17 220:5 222:22 246:22 289:7,9,12 314:19 331:7 DOE-approved 69:17 doers 36:17 DOE's 13:3 52:18 113:10 150:2 161:21 194:1,3 205:20 246:19 252:10 270:2 done 25:12 29:15,21 44:6 71:8,9 73:4 82:6 91:19 95:3 97:2 109:16 111:20 114:5 131:9 141:22 142:4 143:16 145:6,14 149:8,14 152:1 156:1 160:20 174:21 175:14 176:21 180:12 212:4 217:12 226:3 235:13 262:1 289:10 295:4 307:15 326:2 332:15 334:18 door 206:5 214:8,10 262:10 Doppel 2:13 7:20 8:2,5 15:8,16,21 16:1 27:18 28:7,11 34:5,10,14 35:3 54:8,15 55:2 56:11 59:5,7 68:13 71:15 75:15 82:14 83:13,17 84:3,5,8 85:1 93:19 102:18 103:16,21 104:21 105:8,18 106:1 117:11 119:10,13,19 120:2,7 129:12,20 130:1,4,8,13 131:4,13,18 135:17 139:16 226:17,21 234:3,8,11,14,18 235:15 236:1,12 239:9 240:3 241:3,9,11,17,19 242:1,3,10,14,19 243:3,5,20 249:10,16,20 252:3 276:8,13,22 277:3 279:18 280:7 284:2 285:20 306:14 double 22:9 60:12 188:14 doubt 114:8 downrate 145:22 downsizing 238:14 downstream 89:22 267:17 268:16 272:15,22 draconian 151:11 159:5 draft 6:16 169:6 drag 42:15 dragged 42:19 draw 24:4 299:21 Drew 263:21 drilling 52:3 drinks 334:3 drive 24:7 326:9 drop 41:1 84:12 109:13 235:3 238:7,8 299:17,19 300:2 302:13 308:17 drops 40:15 84:7 298:2 301:11 dry 73:5 dry-bulb 277:16 dryer 333:19,20 ducks 301:5 duct 279:2 280:11 ducts 279:6,7 due 7:13 302:7 duplicate 208:3 duplicated 175:7 during 6:15 79:6 134:12 138:19 246:20 267:10

279:5 299:20 308:22 E earlier 20:1 54:3 78:19 80:21 130:17 131:21 133:10 149:2 152:18 167:11 168:18 203:19 265:6 301:4 earliest 107:14 early 262:11 304:18 EarthJustice 2:8 easier 192:18 215:11 258:12 easiest 288:22 easily 109:10 easy 32:3 128:8,9 217:11 economist 243:19 economize 285:3,4 economizer 24:10,21,22 245:13 274:12,13 275:13 278:20 283:18 287:9,12,14,17 288:1,5 289:10,13 291:12 294:15 298:12 300:4 307:4 economizers 24:9 265:8 274:2,11 275:6,9 283:22 284:1 287:17

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 19

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Economy 3:9 edit 248:16 edits 164:8 educate 220:11 EER 220:3,5 249:17,18 280:19 304:7 EEV 220:13 effect 86:19 156:20 168:16 169:22 191:17 281:10 effective 65:8 66:11 67:17 277:10,16 effectively 29:4 38:9 67:15 72:7 74:16 150:7 effects 247:4 efficiencies 9:4 235:18 efficiency 9:5,10,14,21 10:22 76:22 77:3 134:7 153:11 181:20 185:13 187:1,2,8 188:4 193:13 198:9 205:22 208:18 227:14 240:18 252:8 256:13 257:3 259:14,18,19 260:11 261:12 283:10 290:17 304:15 316:17 317:21 319:17 efficiency-wise 197:18 efficient 145:17 180:20 197:13 198:14 208:14 214:8 223:2 251:17 257:1 266:9,10,17 302:12 316:14 320:7 efforts 51:22 297:20 eight 26:5 27:3 73:18,19 76:6 82:20 83:1 85:8 141:19 143:20 144:7 155:7 157:14 160:16,17 179:18,22 197:12,17 eight-foot 197:4 eighty 63:1,3,4 Eisner 2:3 4:2 5:11 6:11,14 7:9 8:1,3,6,18 9:16,19,22 10:2 12:3,15,17 18:3,16 19:3,18 22:12 45:19 46:5,20 47:12,17 52:5,15 53:7,10,15 54:4 58:10 60:9,18 66:14,20 68:3 70:16 71:4 95:17 96:2,9,13 101:12 107:22 109:22 115:19 120:16 121:12,16 124:18 125:5 126:21 128:11 129:8 139:12 140:7,10,15,19,2 1 141:17 144:10 145:9 153:20 154:14 155:2 158:4 159:21 160:2,7,10 161:16 162:5,21 163:9,17 164:4,7,11,16 165:8,13,18 166:4,6,12 167:7 168:3,6,9 169:2,18 170:5,9,20 171:1,11 173:6,10 178:4,10,21 188:6 196:17 204:19 206:18 207:10,12 217:8 244:11 246:5,8,11 259:9 260:19 261:7,15,19 262:15 265:2,8 275:10,22 276:7,9 279:1 335:21 either 4:21 18:2 26:12 28:19,21 130:11 172:3,18 213:18 215:22 223:13 225:1 234:13 242:8 244:5 252:3 266:1 273:22 294:11 298:21 308:16 327:13 329:2 ejected 292:13 electric 2:13 327:16 electrical 185:17,19 191:20 194:14 216:13,16 265:15 266:4,14

267:21 298:15 electronic 298:14 elements 48:7 eliminate 143:2 226:13 251:6 252:21 278:14,18 279:4,14,16 283:20 310:13 eliminated 168:3 eliminates 182:15 eliminating 140:7 else 7:2 14:18 28:19 39:3 43:6 48:20 50:21 58:1 70:15,18 90:13 123:17 128:18 152:16 160:3 162:22 170:10 186:19 189:13 190:7 208:4 210:20 214:12 217:8 218:19 258:2,10 262:9 263:4 264:10 286:20 296:12 299:12,13 310:2 317:21 320:9 else's 174:7 email 5:2 163:18 164:4,19 emails 165:3 188:16 201:13,14,21 embedded 334:13 emphasis 244:17 employed 337:8 enables 280:14

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 20

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 enclosing 323:2 encoat 316:14 encompass 11:12 293:5 encompasses 100:14 encourage 141:4 endpoint 130:22 energy 1:1 2:10,11 3:2,7,14 5:15 10:8,9 115:15 129:1 134:3 180:17,20 181:20 182:3 183:1 185:16 186:6,10,11,22 187:2,7,8,13,16 188:4 189:2 191:21 193:6 198:4,9 199:9 205:21 208:13 209:3 211:4,11,13,22 212:14 213:3 216:12 217:2 239:4 289:12 292:15 297:21 300:8,10 302:9 303:21 305:3 307:2 310:5,22 311:1 312:3 320:2 323:21 335:12 Energy-Efficient 3:8 EnergyStar 211:19 212:14,15 enforce 46:1 65:2 enforcement 138:2 162:7,9,12,15,17 enforcing 65:8 71:19 engineer 217:21 261:7 engineering 157:7 175:6 290:14 engineers 267:21 English 289:2 enhanced 251:5 enhancements 251:6,9 ensure 88:12 entered 80:22 entering 274:6 292:16 enthalpy 277:16 282:14 entire 29:7 119:5 163:3 213:8 313:21,22 323:2 entirely 85:11 248:7,22 entity 162:6 environment 129:6 255:17 256:2,8 320:18 environments 251:21,22 259:17 316:8 envision 94:13 96:3 envisioned 26:18 envisioning 30:19,20 317:20 EPA 115:14 212:19,22 253:21 EPR 24:10 equal 157:14 160:17 equally 107:16 equation 78:14 191:11,12 213:12 equipment 14:2,3 23:5 28:1,2 61:11 67:7 85:6,18 89:1 138:22 148:16 150:9 151:9 152:10,15,16 153:5,15,19 174:14 175:18 192:18 252:7 264:4 265:14 270:19 274:7 278:1,7 282:4 287:8 292:17,20 298:13 306:15 308:9 310:20 equivalent 229:8,9 251:3 ER 281:14 304:10,14 era 86:9 220:17 Eric 315:17 error 147:9 215:18 250:11 errors 136:16,17 ERV 297:14,15 307:6 ERVs 292:7 ESP 280:18 especially 19:8 39:21 50:13 52:7 123:11 322:20 essence 26:11

essentially 29:1 72:7 113:6 114:3 174:1 185:16 191:19 197:2 216:13 240:17 244:16 332:19 establish 172:18 183:10 260:22 established 11:10 120:11 172:4 establishing 220:12 estimate 280:19 et 154:5 241:1 245:19 evaluate 11:4 260:15,17 evaluated 195:8 265:17 evaporator 67:6 218:5 220:15 232:16 236:11 247:21 248:14 254:13 263:18 313:14 evening 50:1 eventually 93:2 138:6 215:11 304:19 330:14 everybody 38:9 65:20 70:21 90:13 91:15 136:18 140:16 141:7 153:21 160:3 163:6 217:14 231:1 252:12 288:9 306:16 everybody's 5:13

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 21

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 123:12 140:21 246:12 262:3 288:7 everyone 4:19 47:10 49:13 67:21 91:15 172:22 209:21 262:13 everyone's 108:18 137:16 everything 4:19 5:1 6:2 8:19 28:19 41:10 43:6 64:22 82:21 84:21 89:5 104:15,22 110:18 123:16 153:3 158:14 164:10 177:19,20 190:5 192:1 205:11,17,21 208:4 218:19 227:6 232:20 233:2 235:19 258:1,2,19,22 276:11 295:21 317:21 exact 79:14 112:13,15 174:14 179:16 exactly 14:11 167:14 200:10 238:15 241:21 242:2,22 243:21 264:20 285:4 291:18 296:9 315:10,11 329:8 exaggerating 60:6 example 15:18 24:8 26:8 28:17 78:1,7 98:22 112:21 146:20 147:2,3 177:14 198:14 235:1 238:5 251:2 259:20 260:7 293:17 298:3 319:22 332:20 examples 35:21 226:6 325:14 excel 255:4 Excellent 88:3 except 72:17 145:22 147:11 164:10,11 168:10 244:17 258:11 284:15 exception 308:3 331:5 exceptions 155:5 218:12 331:1 excessive 133:2 excessively 44:9 exchange 292:18 294:6 exchanged 201:14 exchanger 248:2 262:9 308:8 310:18,19 exchangers 193:7 exchanging 299:14 310:20 316:17 exclude 235:5 305:9 excluded 218:7 234:13 235:10 253:11 270:12 271:1 excludes 253:13,16 excluding 251:20 259:10 exclusion 251:17,19 253:21 270:8 273:12 exclusions 219:1 253:19 264:1 exclusive 175:4 178:16 exclusively 295:5 excuse 163:16 180:8,20 184:14 exempted 147:4,5 291:16 314:19 exempting 259:9 exemption 330:21 334:20 exhaust 292:11,18 293:19,21 295:8,9 300:9 327:12 exhausted 292:13,19 exhausting 295:2 exist 192:9 existing 158:2 exists 137:3 expand 236:15 expanding 236:20 expansion 219:14,19,21 221:2 expect 79:14 271:16 expectation 34:17 35:1 54:12 75:4 84:18 95:9,13 102:10 expectations 194:5 expensive 28:2 50:13 96:22 252:13,14 263:3 experience 88:22 99:7 expert 151:17 221:7 expire 156:4 explain 73:10 85:20 221:21 247:9 explicit 295:14 explicitly 219:16 exposed 321:11 exposing 216:1 exposure 6:1 61:21 253:4 expressed 121:13 168:11 extend 44:8 45:9 extendant 325:6 extent 81:22 145:22 149:16 168:14 169:21 173:9 246:20 258:22 external 215:19 239:9 240:4 301:14 308:10 311:1,2 externally 321:11 extra 4:21 45:16 158:16 330:6 extremely 94:4 125:7 152:10

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 22

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 EXV 220:21 F fabricated 248:7,21 face 242:22 faceting 236:17 facetious 153:17 FACILITATOR 2:2 facility 177:1 198:19 326:18 fact 8:8 28:22 29:7,11 51:8,16 69:4,15,18 87:6 96:20 97:1,3 98:1 111:11 112:10,22 136:10 137:3 143:12 147:11 177:14 199:7 208:13 225:12 235:17 250:6 251:20 254:4 267:2 323:9 factor 24:10 86:20 90:9,12,15 92:15 189:8 215:18 265:13,15 269:1,21,22 factoring 120:5 factors 87:5 factory 284:3,4,5 322:12 323:11 fail 55:9,11,19 56:13,18,19 58:16 73:2 77:10 89:12 97:16 116:14,15 121:19 123:2 126:2 255:3

failed 41:6,13,22 42:5 47:2 55:16 83:1 106:18 110:5 116:7 130:7,9,10 155:22 failing 73:14 89:21 129:3 failings 125:14 fails 40:21 64:7 107:19 failure 30:8,14 36:3,4 37:4 39:7 41:20,21 42:6,7,18 43:2,12,21 44:18 45:11,14,15,19,2 0 46:14,21,22 47:10,13 57:11 61:8,9,17,20 62:4,5,6,11,22 68:14 79:8 90:3 97:12 98:2,6 114:22 121:19 126:10 128:15 130:20,22 failures 18:7,12 20:16 21:3,4 26:8 28:18 34:7,10 36:18 37:5 38:18 42:4 47:3 50:20 55:13 58:16 71:1 75:5 103:5 104:3 110:4 112:14 116:4,20,21 117:10,13 119:2 120:4 121:22 125:18,20 128:22 142:20 143:1 146:18 160:17

fair 46:19 263:15 290:5 301:8 321:3 fairly 266:18 317:10 fall 42:20 56:8 112:1 177:5 fallacy 137:8 falling 7:4 46:22 familiar 268:19 families 69:7 family 191:5 318:22 319:11 330:1 fan 94:3 126:12 133:5 185:20 192:12 193:8 235:11 239:6 fans 88:9 133:2 185:20 193:8 299:19 farther 85:18 fast 63:8,10 102:1 110:16 127:12 272:2 323:22 faster 272:4 fault 107:19 favorable 280:8 fear 220:12 259:7 feature 232:10 240:2 features 196:8 Federal 1:4 336:2 feedback 236:19,21 feel 18:11 45:5,6 49:5 65:19 86:8 226:21 252:19 259:1 feeling 48:7 feet 159:1 181:15 208:21 fell 173:7 felt 37:12 FEMALE 115:6 140:1,3 305:18,20 fess 89:14 field 89:16 90:18 92:16 262:11 320:2 figure 45:12 85:1 86:1 188:13 197:9 212:2 233:16 314:9 figured 30:12 figuring 202:22 file 157:17 169:20 fill 91:20 filling 291:11 filtration 264:9 fin 230:5 248:5 250:21 251:1,5,6,7,9 320:5 final 8:8 63:13 139:5 168:14 270:22 finalize 12:9 finally 63:5 financial 337:9 finding 64:8,9,10 87:22

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 23

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 fine 31:8 100:6,7 144:5 151:4 153:2 202:16 214:2 266:1 273:22 275:12 314:3 finished 307:16 fins 248:3,22 251:2,5 252:2 313:16,22 fire 9:8,13 159:1 327:6 fired 9:2 first 8:4 12:3 18:2 19:21 20:5 27:15 30:6 40:11,17,22 41:11 43:2 45:1 47:8,15 61:4 63:14 64:9 71:5 74:3 75:5 89:19 90:3 91:15 110:4 118:10 120:19 171:2,14 175:11 176:12 179:5 212:15 218:20 257:13 291:8 293:4 fit 172:17 190:11 284:1 296:6 fits 38:19 124:11 177:11 five 84:3,4 108:16 124:1 125:3,6,20 126:7 143:3 150:17 158:13 164:19 218:20 250:2,11 254:8 263:2,11 299:4 327:9 fix 67:16 73:3 124:20 208:5 247:6 270:3

fixed 28:20 62:10 83:19 220:20 Fixtures 3:6 flappers 298:7 flavors 117:19 295:19 flaw 113:5 flexibility 35:14 65:5 128:1 145:12 153:20 155:7 159:4,7 209:18 224:20 225:3 234:1 flexible 11:12 238:19 flight 73:20 flip 289:11 floating 49:21 Florida 287:11,13 Florida's 288:11 flow 48:3,4,16 220:14 229:8 238:16 239:3 256:19 flue 113:3 fluke 17:22 flunks 46:5 fluorescent 195:1 flush 37:14 flushed 72:4 Fly 2:14 107:2,9,11,15,18 204:22 205:5,9,13 206:2 222:6,9 225:4,9 228:14,16,20 233:11,19 234:1 235:22 237:4,8 238:8,13 239:15 241:7,15 250:2,5,14 252:9,14 253:3,9,22 255:16 256:1 258:16 259:15 260:12,17 261:2,5,14,17,20 266:1,5,16 267:8,13,17,20 268:4,6,14 269:11 273:11,18,22 276:20 277:13 282:18,21 283:3,8,10,12 284:3 285:9 287:6,18 289:17,21 291:8 293:15 294:10 296:6,15 297:7 298:11,21 299:5 301:9,16 302:9,12 303:6 304:1 308:12,19,22 309:12 310:1 312:18,22 313:4,10 315:10 317:7 321:14,16,22 324:7 325:10,17,22 326:7,12,21 327:4,11,16 328:3,7,9 331:9,17 332:1,4,8 333:6,10,13,16 334:1,12,15 335:2 fly-by-night 51:12 flying 321:20 322:3 focused 53:2 264:12 focusing 51:21 folks 173:16 follow-up 174:18 food 99:1 foot 179:17 180:21,22 182:3 183:1 184:19,21 186:1,2,3,7,9 187:3 191:3 192:1 195:11,13,14 196:15 197:12,13,21 208:11,14 209:10,21,22 210:5 214:9 215:15 footage 211:5 footnote 112:7 force 126:20 145:13 148:10 224:21 305:10 forced 27:22 90:8 145:21 224:22 forcible 83:10 forcing 126:22 127:5 foregoing 337:3 foregoing/ attached 338:6 339:6 340:6 341:6 foresee 327:1 forever 56:20 74:3

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 24

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 forget 7:15 form 142:5 268:7 format 91:21 former 169:7 forms 292:14 formula 182:11 191:8 194:8 213:19 215:14,21 formulas 192:9,10 194:11 forth 102:17 112:22 Forty-five 140:18 forum 168:14 169:5 forward 10:7 70:2 71:14 91:16 98:19 100:1,3 163:2 171:4 four-foot 185:20 195:2 196:22 197:3,14,20 198:1 209:7 fourth 32:11 fraction 317:11 fractions 161:2 frame 47:1 229:12 framework

17:12 54:14 64:17,20 65:1 71:21 95:11 96:12 Frank 3:5,11 21:11 22:2,7 37:11 41:19 46:12 60:20 62:11 65:10 68:12 78:16 100:6 112:19 139:21 143:10 152:2 173:14,15 268:18 287:15 288:7,15 294:11 315:4 free 84:15 front 7:1 35:13 174:20 247:18 fuel 9:11 full 7:13 48:2 120:21 231:17 289:22 293:1 298:22 full-load 220:6 full-time 59:16 fully 5:4 37:1 39:13 function 180:6 181:22 195:12 213:21 274:13 299:10 functional 191:20 194:15 216:14 302:7 fund 325:1 fundamental 74:17 193:11 200:5 funding 14:11 furnaces 145:2 172:5 260:7 future 137:15 220:22 245:17,20 264:16 274:10,15 293:5 307:7 316:12 325:1 327:3 G

gain 303:22 game 71:21 144:7 gas 9:2 10:10 11:9 308:11 309:4 313:6 327:13 gas-fired 8:22 9:6,8,13 10:15 11:6 145:1 geek 68:5 geeks 48:2 general 144:19 187:10 201:5 242:16 292:15 296:19 325:15 generalization 300:17 generally 242:17 generate 33:21 110:5 118:3 266:17 generating 120:1 146:19 generic 274:9 310:19 311:5,11 Geoffrey 2:15 geometer 230:4 geometry 230:12 geothermal 166:10 gets 20:10 44:9 101:7 121:9 123:13,16 135:11 143:22 151:11 218:11 272:21 320:8 329:17 getting 7:4 21:21 22:14 31:20 40:1 51:16 56:22 58:5 69:8 74:17 82:3 86:12 87:6 90:1 103:5 107:22 112:3 123:7 127:8 130:19 132:10,14 139:12 152:2 153:3 208:10 256:6 262:9 270:7 272:4 328:13,20 gist 174:15 given 38:10,17 89:4 143:19 182:11 294:8 295:16 gives 108:5,6 153:20,22 158:22 159:4,7 167:21 198:7 261:11 304:6 giving 108:7 111:14 154:18 224:5,15 227:19 228:21 261:22 go-around 49:14 God 193:20 281:8 going-in 23:15 96:13 gone 6:3 8:2 26:2 29:14 84:2,12 114:8 195:21 goods 85:12 Gotcha 190:6 gotten 46:4 131:22 156:13 164:1 264:11 government 253:20

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 25

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 governmental 109:11 grades 88:5,6 gradually 142:11 Grady 304:2 grains 326:18 grant 154:16 granting 46:16 graphic 49:18,19 grapple 101:1 great 48:1 109:18 117:20 greater 22:10 54:16 143:20 157:14 160:16,17 250:1 259:19 greatest 259:7 Greenwood's 278:16 grill 321:9,18 grocery 327:5 333:8,11 335:1 ground 5:20,21 6:1 94:21 167:1 246:17 320:21 group 49:6,20 54:6 56:4 72:8 100:2,5 103:20 104:13,15 108:8 117:20,21,22 145:12,18 146:2 165:22 168:19 169:6 181:17 220:15 221:2,4 222:22 224:13 233:15,22 235:1 252:18 259:3 306:17 grouped 82:8 292:9 grouping 82:6 83:2 208:22 221:5 groupings 222:12,13 groups 117:22 233:12 Grove 329:6 growing 302:21 322:19 guard 323:13 guards 235:2 321:8 guess 12:21 13:1,14 17:20,22 37:9 44:21 49:12 84:18 92:18 120:17 129:16 132:14 141:11 163:18 171:16 172:17 196:18 197:7 214:13,22 225:20 227:18 237:9 240:15 245:17 274:15 285:11 286:4 294:17 329:21 guidance 225:22 226:7 guideline 304:2,13 305:14 312:17 327:9 guidelines 304:6 guilty 68:1 gut 72:13 guy 68:8,10 153:21 159:9 guys 36:6 39:9

51:11 59:10 64:9,10 69:7 127:17 128:10 140:22 167:16 214:2 215:10 244:14 252:10 266:14 H hail 321:8,12,20 323:13 hale 235:1 half 9:15 10:14 46:8 53:6 58:10 135:1 179:18 243:5 327:13 Halley 2:15 8:21 9:18,20 10:5,9,13,19,22 11:3,13,17,22 hand 5:12 21:6 97:13 110:19 handful 59:11 handle 80:15 115:14 253:8 259:12 handling 259:22 260:1 Hang 316:22 hanging 57:1 83:14 happen 18:14,15 29:21 60:8 88:8 134:16 135:19 143:21 269:3 281:2 happened 43:4 47:19 131:12 257:13 318:7 happens 10:15

26:9 30:13 39:5 70:13 105:13 126:17 131:2 134:15 272:19 278:6 286:20 happy 36:4 125:9 141:7 204:7 250:8 hard 19:6 83:11 102:3,4 138:13 287:20 312:19 329:6 harder 258:14 289:4 306:3,7 Harvey 3:8 22:22 66:22 72:9 165:4 204:22 220:9 246:12 278:5 Harvey's 24:16 hat 83:16 hate 61:21 150:3 haul 153:5 haven't 29:14,19 68:8 76:2,10 77:15 90:20 156:8 216:6 235:13 264:11 301:21 328:17 332:15 334:18 having 7:1 42:17 48:1 81:2 85:19 88:6 93:22 119:5 120:3,4 124:21 139:9 142:3 151:2 152:10 153:8 185:15 211:6 216:11,12 221:9 226:14 233:10 235:16 236:7,8 238:2

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 26

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 258:8 304:15 313:15 327:12 head 67:4 213:10 216:6 heading 20:3 55:1 headings 20:3 head-scratcher 213:16 hear 57:8 102:3,4 117:6 161:19 178:9 199:16 233:6 314:10 heard 37:6 68:8 91:14 217:15 241:18 262:17 315:17 318:15 334:22 335:1 hearing 24:18 34:14 56:12 61:9 76:19 82:18 86:10 119:17 125:6 133:1 163:9 193:4 240:6 281:16 331:4 heat 3:13 102:22 103:2 146:9 193:7 215:20 248:2 262:8 266:18 292:8,10,12 293:7,18,20,21 294:13,18,21 295:1,3,4,5,8,15 296:8 299:14 308:7,8,10,12,13 309:10,12 310:5,18,19 311:2,21 313:19 326:9,12,21 327:19 heater 55:10 113:2 327:13,14,16 heaters 296:8 309:13 heating 1:6 2:6,14 3:11 296:17,18 334:10,17 heats 308:9 heck 32:20 held 77:19 Hello 331:2 help 4:3 5:6 186:12 187:19 203:13,14 225:5 266:14 304:2 helpful 13:14 24:2 101:14 329:20 helping 109:17 hereby 337:3 338:2 339:2 340:2 341:2 here's 68:11 106:6,9 109:13 110:20,21 131:2,12 256:20 he's 11:2 120:12 164:14 199:16,21 200:3 229:19 295:13 326:3 Hex 2:18 hey 35:17 284:7 hide 64:14 high 59:13 216:1 249:22 268:11 284:9,12 301:13,20 302:7 303:6 335:15,17 higher 9:10,15 12:18 60:16 85:17 95:12 147:17 154:13 252:8 257:20 282:15 302:12,13 highest 319:8 333:6 highest-selling 161:10 highly 61:11 historically 115:5,9 history 38:21 hit 14:21 15:1 26:3 40:22 50:12 84:1 93:16 157:13 hitting 14:19 63:10 hmm 162:11 200:15 HOA 297:9 hold 56:20 159:1 171:6 199:15 241:14 247:3 holder 328:12 330:8 holding 66:20 254:1 holes 321:9 home 163:5 homemade 323:8 homework

217:15 Hon 2:16 50:5 52:19 53:4 64:1,4 108:2,11,14,18 109:2,7,9 207:19,20 213:17 215:13 263:21

264:5,7,9,15 honest 50:12 honestly 52:21 81:17 honesty 53:1 hood 323:12 hook 56:19 hoops 157:5,20 161:13 Hootman 2:17 16:12,16,20 17:6,9 20:13,17,21 21:10 25:5,12 29:10,14,17 30:18 31:10 32:1 33:5 39:18 75:21 76:13 78:5,9,13 94:10,12,19,22 95:6,15,18 96:17 97:5,8,10,14 99:21 100:21 101:2,5 102:2,5 107:16,20 112:18 113:14,19 114:2,11,18 115:14 117:3,15 118:5 126:5,7,10,19 127:1,3,6 134:14,17 135:20 139:19 140:4 163:21 164:3 167:14 168:1 169:14 170:4,7 173:4 175:3 178:9 220:8 221:20 222:1,8,10,18 223:21 224:13

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 27

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 225:16,19 227:1 229:19 231:12 233:3,8 234:10 235:7 238:10 239:13 240:11 243:10,16,22 245:12 247:15 248:8,12,18 252:13 253:14 254:2,9,12,17 256:7 262:19 264:6,8,11,16,18 ,20 266:4 269:2,9,19 271:11,18 272:6 274:14 275:2 276:1,4 277:8,15 278:3,10 280:21 281:1,13,19,22 282:8,12,20,22 283:7,9,15 284:5,9,12,14,21 285:1,14,17,19,2 1 286:5 288:9 289:5 290:11 293:3,10 294:1 295:20 296:1,8,13,16,21 297:2,11,14,22 298:4,8,18,20 299:6,11,16,22 300:10,13 301:21 302:5,14 303:12 307:13,15,19 308:1 309:5,8,17,21 310:7,12,17 311:10,17,20 312:20 313:1,5,9 316:1,6,9,22 317:5,8 318:19 319:1,4,8,15 322:12 323:7,19 324:13,19 325:12 328:13,16,20 329:4,8,21 330:10,15,19 332:5,10 333:9,12,15 334:2,7,14,19 335:4,10 hope 49:13 84:22 115:8 142:15 303:5 hopefully 7:15 68:10 75:4 148:8 horse 114:17 hospitals 264:1 hosting 4:17 hour 129:4 140:18 141:1 182:4 246:14 hours 129:2 309:22 house 314:8 335:6 housekeeping 4:2 HRI 225:6 226:3 231:9 304:11,16,18 HRVC 292:7 HTP 85:3 112:5 156:19 161:18 huge 35:17 94:3 110:13 118:17 330:4 huh 170:21 humid 284:15 humidification 308:14 humidities 326:16 hundred 63:1,3,4 109:7 118:1 137:5 Hunt 218:13,16 219:2,5,9,12 278:8 283:21 307:8,17 322:2 323:4,6 hurdle 147:17 Hurst 2:18 65:17 227:16 228:1 254:15,19,22 314:22 335:16 Hussmann 3:10 63:19 HVAC 19:8 22:19 50:14 55:7 122:3 146:5 264:6,7 296:17 328:2 hydraulic 188:9,12 hyperbolic 87:4 hypothetical 159:18 I ice 309:18 I'd 125:18 127:15 140:22 141:4 161:19 212:2 213:9 215:1 251:14 277:22 322:16 325:18 idea 7:2 42:18 84:20 102:16 184:5 270:14,22 272:16 304:14 323:1 ideals 325:15 identical 74:18 175:18 176:8,9 177:22

185:16,19 191:19 192:12 194:15 195:4 216:13 258:11 270:5,8 identifiable 139:4 identified 41:21 113:4,11 114:4 123:13 identify 107:7,9 112:22 142:20,22 165:1 IER 220:18,22 I'll 12:18 52:13 102:11,15 167:17 216:8 236:9 265:12 288:19 293:17 313:13 illegal 318:5 I'm 13:3,5 15:16 23:5 24:18 26:17 27:2 29:14 30:19 31:2,3,10,20 33:16 43:12 44:3,4 46:5,9 47:12,13 48:1,2 49:8 51:5 56:3,12 60:6 61:15 65:22 74:13 84:8 86:5,10 87:1,3,10 88:9 89:13,18 93:22 94:2 95:2,17 96:2 97:12,17 98:22 100:6,7 101:8 102:12 103:18 108:15,16,20 114:6,14 115:13

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 28

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 117:1 120:17 122:17 123:8 124:4,6,21 125:6,9 126:14 132:14 133:1,9 135:7 138:21 147:16 149:15 151:4 152:21 153:16 155:4 156:16 158:12 161:10,11,22 165:6 166:21 168:7 169:2,12 178:10,12,15 183:5,8 184:8 186:8 193:3,4,15 194:1,2 195:6 196:19 197:7,19,20 198:16 200:15 201:16,19 203:6 207:11,18 208:19 214:14 215:15,17 217:20 219:18 221:14 224:5 226:4,19 227:7 229:15,21 233:5 235:8 236:3,5 237:8 242:11 243:22 245:22 246:12 247:15,17 253:14 254:9,12,17 255:8 256:6,12 258:8 260:8 261:7 266:4,14 268:19 270:16 272:9 274:19,20 276:4,6 281:16 283:3,21 294:10 295:11 310:10 317:15,20 318:10,17 327:21 330:20 331:15 332:5 334:15,18 335:18 imagine 19:22 22:6 28:3 224:1 316:7 immaterial 55:17 immediately 62:12 155:16 impact 24:10 54:9 88:1 128:21 129:6 220:2,3 234:14 249:5 250:17 251:13 252:6,20 255:11 280:19 287:1 289:12 298:11 311:5 312:2 322:4 335:12 impacting 102:19 impacts 85:19 297:17 335:11 impact's 251:11 implications 236:4 implied 109:11 implies 186:16 190:10 191:22 298:14 imply 186:17 implying 186:18 important 100:12 239:3 244:7 277:2 290:15 319:16 320:12 impose 108:16 imposed 119:9 imposing 162:7 impossible 64:18 81:6,10 impotence 313:18 impression 137:17 259:4 improbable 85:6 improve 79:6 90:14 148:11 259:13 260:11 261:12 improved 83:11 inaudible 237:9 244:15 245:5 269:22 281:12 298:12 304:21,22 Inc 2:13,15,18 3:5,6 incentive 292:3 316:13 inch 251:2 301:14 302:1 inches 313:15 321:10 include 24:8 25:18 146:9 163:1 166:10 297:19 306:9 324:22 included 23:11,17 24:9 53:22 96:15 131:18 269:12 323:1,17 326:4 includes 23:11 53:11 280:12 including 53:22 67:10 130:21 163:10,11 256:17 313:21 inclusion 252:19 254:10,13 incoming 89:8

293:21 294:20 inconsistent 168:13 169:4 incorporate 129:14 292:21 incorrect 147:8 168:7 increase 235:2 255:20 256:13 281:17 increased 109:15 increases 265:13 319:18 incremental 259:19 independent 151:3 288:11 independents 288:12 indicate 246:17 indicates 189:21 indication 234:5 indicator 21:2 indirect 292:17 individual 17:2,7,10,11 79:10 104:13 105:9,17 117:18 195:22 214:4 244:14 individually 173:8 individuals 168:10 259:3 indoor 248:6,12,20 252:3,5 285:12 313:20

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 29

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 inductive 265:21 industrial 251:22 industries 3:5 86:10 industry 22:18 69:19,22 99:5,14 100:11 102:9,21 103:8 127:11 208:15 211:18 243:17 244:3 278:13 285:7,22 300:18 inefficiency 332:12 inefficient 317:18 infinite 22:1 information 31:2 50:9 64:13 68:9 79:7 109:18 131:19 135:6 196:2 210:3 239:17 290:14 informational 6:18 inherently 108:5 initial 45:22 47:19 175:17,19 176:20 initially 45:3 61:8 143:7 261:13 Initiating 145:7 input 240:14 244:21 265:16 inputs 78:17 80:18 88:7,21 inside 229:10 266:22 277:17 284:1 308:8 insignificant 19:17 55:9 insisted 176:16 installation 235:20 255:3 installed 256:13 270:19 284:4,5 installing 255:20 instance 254:2 255:16 instead 18:8 87:7 96:20 121:11 171:13 248:13 261:10 269:7 270:17 280:9 309:4 310:17 327:12 Institute 1:6 2:7 3:12 instruction 300:22 instructions 4:15 intake 300:9 integral 256:21 284:2,3 286:16 327:2 329:5 integrate 268:8 integrated 289:2 328:2,5,14 329:15 integrating 265:18 intend 37:20 intended 78:2 116:1 124:14 intent 94:9,11 115:9 235:17 intercepts 190:12 interest 337:10 interested 193:13,15 262:4 interesting 87:12 299:7 interests 93:18 interim 6:15 7:12 164:4 interior 329:2 internal 5:17 213:21 internet 4:13,14 interpretation 83:7 137:17 215:7 intervening 84:2 introduction 306:19 invalid 12:6 14:17,21 27:8,9,13,14 32:5,6,11,12 82:7 120:22 131:11 132:1,6,10,13,18 142:2 invalidated 83:4 inventory 113:15 115:4 investigate 142:20,22 inviting 304:21,22 involved 70:11 138:17 149:10 194:12 isn't 9:19 21:5 22:1 59:15 64:1 65:19 71:18 93:9 125:1 135:4 139:21 154:7 180:16,22 206:22 209:20

267:1 278:14 294:14 issue 9:16 11:19 12:3,6 36:2 48:21 63:18 67:1,18,19 68:20,21,22 91:11 96:16 112:13,15 117:5,7 122:2,3 135:5 136:19 159:20 162:22 170:17 198:18 199:3 255:10 268:12,14 289:14 290:19 314:15 issued 247:3 issues 8:7,8,10 12:5,10,19 54:13 87:21 134:16 164:12 165:2 166:8,19 168:11 207:20 216:5 218:2 250:13 283:20 292:5 296:4 300:4 319:22 331:3 it'd 239:3 287:20 item 249:4 305:21 items 252:16 iterate 90:22 it'll 270:22 it's 4:7 6:3,18 7:17 9:6,10,12 11:11 12:16 13:7 14:7,9,15 17:8 18:1,14 19:1,20 22:4,17 24:15 25:19 30:14,15,16 31:5

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 30

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 32:21 33:3 35:12,13 36:8 40:19 41:3,16,17 42:5,6 43:8 44:21 45:20,21 46:2,3,6,22 47:17 50:8,20 51:3 53:5,19,20 55:9,11,19 56:17 57:3 59:5,6,7,17,18,1 9,22 62:5,12 65:4,21 71:10 72:15 73:5,14,20 74:5,17,18 77:18 81:6,7,9,12 83:8 84:9 85:6 87:4,8,9,12 89:13 90:5,6,15,16,18 92:19 93:3,21 96:5 97:15 98:8,10,16 100:1 102:3 103:2 106:22 107:19,20 108:18 110:16 113:2,21 114:17 115:2 117:6,10,13 119:4,6,7,14 120:7 121:10 122:2,14 123:20 124:13,16,19 125:17 127:19 128:4 130:22 131:5,11 132:22 134:9,10,18,19 135:3 137:12,16,18 138:13,16,19,20 139:12 141:10 142:13,21 144:21 146:8 147:12 148:10,22 149:10 150:2 151:8 152:4,5 157:18 159:19 161:6 167:2,15 169:15 172:2 173:22 177:22 178:3,13 179:6,18 181:1,16 183:3,8,9,21,22 184:1,20 187:6,16 188:11 190:4 191:2,3,4,5 192:14,16,18 194:4 197:5 198:17,18,21 199:13 200:1 203:7 204:18 206:6 207:1 208:21 209:2 210:14,16 211:13,16 212:9,10,12,15 213:20,22 214:2 220:1,8 223:9 224:3,6,9 226:3,7,8 227:8 228:5,15 230:8,14,16 233:17 234:8,9,10,13,15 ,22 235:3 236:16 237:15 239:11,13 240:6,13 241:2,12 242:16,17,18,21 243:7,22 244:7,22 247:16 252:7 253:4 255:17 256:4 257:1,20 258:12,14 259:18 260:3,12 263:1,2,3 265:1,8,10 266:18 268:22 269:14 270:1,6,8,9 271:6 275:12,16,19 277:8,10,15 278:13 279:13,14,15,16 280:22 281:11 282:6 283:8,15 284:5,10,14 285:12,21 286:5 287:9,14 289:21 290:1,16,17,19 291:2,8 293:8,9 294:5,21 295:3,5 296:1,22 297:3,4,5,7,8 298:18,19,21 299:9,12 300:2,3,10,17 301:7,18 302:20 303:2,7,16 304:8,9 305:6 306:7 307:15,16,17,18 308:16 309:1,20 310:1,2 312:19,21 313:1,5 314:8,11,18 317:10,15 318:18 319:3,4,5,15 320:1,6 322:19 323:20 324:16 326:14 327:11 329:1 330:3,4,15 331:5,11,19,21 332:21 333:1,4,5,13,16, 17 334:5,10,11 335:2,6

I've 30:22 36:1 101:22 111:17 155:10 172:12 185:9 188:16 201:19,20 211:14 217:15 235:10 256:5 269:3 291:6 301:18 308:2 J Jakobs 2:19 33:18,22 34:2 62:7,16 63:3,16 67:19 72:1,9,14,19 73:2 76:5,12 77:5,10,15,20 78:22 79:3,12,16,19 81:9 85:21 86:6,18,22 88:19 89:17 90:3,7,11,16,19 91:2,5,17,20 92:4,8,15,19 104:4,9 228:5,10 250:10,16 255:2,14 288:20 295:18 305:1,6,12 332:20 333:1,4,21 January 38:4 205:20 Jeff 2:9,21 35:9 42:21 57:10 80:20 106:13 110:1 111:4 127:8 155:10 160:11 165:4 195:19 210:12

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 31

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 214:13 Jill 2:17 29:10 30:20 169:18 222:1 245:12 262:20 271:18 274:14 281:16 328:19 Jill's 30:11 job 81:14 87:22 Joe 128:11,12,14 John 2:11,18 167:14 217:17 Johnson 2:20 163:15,16,20 164:6 165:6,11,16 229:4,15,20 319:2 322:16 323:12,18 judgment 90:9 139:6 judgments 137:16 jump 157:19 161:12 jumped 157:5 June 1:11 7:13 justification 159:22 160:8 208:5 252:17 justified 154:3 justify 252:22 juxtaposition 69:4 K kabuk i 88:17 Karen 3:4 19:7 22:16 55:2 75:20 117:6 120:16 123:9 256:10 322:19

Karim 2:6 69:3 108:16 221:16 225:5 305:14 key 123:16 200:11 kick 116:6,13 119:6,15 kicking 93:15 kicks 121:3,5 kill 283:8 323:21 killer 82:21 283:15 killing 323:20 kilowatt 129:2,4 215:15 kilowatts 129:5 213:4 kinds 89:10 190:2 192:17 274:19 Kleiss 2:21 106:13 110:1 111:3,4,10,16,19 ,22 155:10,19 156:16 157:8,12,22 160:11,16 161:1,8,15 206:19 knew 211:12 224:6 knock 335:7 knocked 35:18 157:21 knocking 35:20 know.The 335:8 knowledge 120:7 262:6 329:12 known 67:12 Kojak 2:22 39:2,16,21 40:3 41:5,11 59:9 L lab 26:19 27:4 39:11 43:17,18 51:19 59:13,16 63:8 148:17,18 149:1,9,16 151:3,7,9,18,19, 20 152:1,11 153:10,12 159:17 207:8 Laboratories 2:22 labs 39:6 148:21 150:9 281:20,22 lack 26:15 136:15 259:21 lag 63:7 laid 85:4 language 46:21 70:19 71:5 101:12 141:3,5,11 152:18 164:13 169:8 173:1 188:7 206:14 207:13,17 225:9 large 123:18,19 138:22 152:10 162:2 179:7 198:18 281:10 297:19 321:20 328:2 330:3 larger 87:16,18 129:9,10 137:10 138:3 151:9 281:6 321:10 last 7:11,12,20 10:7 24:12 29:5 42:13 51:11 52:8 71:18 82:10 83:13 84:9 91:12

96:17 108:3 122:4 123:22 131:16 141:13,17 157:22 158:7 161:21 163:4 164:9,22 165:21 166:13 171:5 189:15 220:17 233:6 235:16 246:14 254:3 262:19,20 264:22 296:6,9,10 305:21 314:6,12 321:1 334:22 335:18 late 52:13 latent 295:4,5 later 24:12 31:6 46:8 51:4 91:21 93:1 108:13 109:1,21 114:15 127:18 199:4 264:13,14 latter 19:20 laundry 234:21 Laura 2:10 42:22 47:21 52:8 91:5 96:3 115:19 130:16 160:5,7 182:19 195:6 254:1 Laura's 89:19 law 162:20 207:21 236:5 lawyer 236:5 lawyers 261:8 layer 313:15

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 32

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 lead 44:15 330:14 leaders 268:1 leakage 282:14,22 283:6,11 leaks 283:2 learning 70:2 least 12:16 13:15 38:8 61:22 67:7 78:11 82:12 93:4 98:15 99:11,18 145:17 181:18 197:13 216:6 223:2 289:1 301:7 302:1 leave 7:14 104:12 110:10,17 201:12 218:19 224:20 238:18 246:16 259:4 276:20 280:12 324:5 leaves 49:14 64:21 206:5 215:14 LED 194:22 LEED 173:20 left-hand 13:13 106:14 107:1 legal 235:3 legally 108:9 length 184:17 189:2,3,4 210:3 211:1 213:19 lengths 188:21 197:10 Lennox 172:14 263:10 less 82:2 90:11 238:16 254:3,4,7 262:17,22 281:6 312:7 313:15 319:19 lessen 70:19 71:1 154:7,8,15,19 lesser 154:2 let's 12:17 20:2,5 21:3 27:7 28:18 29:19 31:15 32:3 33:6 38:17 40:18 42:9 43:16 50:12 52:5 57:21 60:5 62:22 96:7,18 102:22 109:20 113:1,2 114:14 117:4 142:10 158:12 163:14 171:6 175:3 197:2 227:7 247:8 249:14 273:15 311:6 324:1,9 letter 27:10,16 157:15 level 65:4 82:12 90:18 92:16 142:15 156:7 233:4,9 252:8 liability 118:15 176:14 liar 91:9 liberal 5:22 license 175:4 178:16 life 252:8 262:1,8 lifetime 49:2 259:13 260:11,13 261:12 light 52:7 lighten 318:10 lights 192:14 194:22 195:1 likelihood 94:4 125:6,20 likely 19:19 75:22 212:19 269:7 limb 76:16 limit 79:22 106:20 118:15 223:2 258:3 limited 18:4 34:8 50:11 63:12 82:8 158:18,21 159:2 limiting 222:21 223:5 233:22 236:20 301:6 line 19:13 89:8 128:11 130:11 135:11 141:17 150:21 176:13,15 191:19 193:4 200:6 214:5 219:11 241:12 265:14 267:7,8,9,12 268:22 269:8 linear 180:21 181:6 182:3,22 184:19 186:1,2,3,7,9 187:3 190:9,11 192:14 197:3 200:14 208:10,14 209:9,21,22 210:5 lines 24:4 89:1 218:20 linkage 245:14 linked 71:10 313:6

liquid 308:11 325:8 326:5 328:1 LISA 338:2,13 list 5:17 12:22 37:19 48:22 85:7,19 105:14,18,21 106:1,2 107:4 142:11 172:14 177:1 218:11 219:1 234:21 242:3 256:6 257:14 258:6,20,22 261:4 listed 104:19 123:16 247:22 listing 105:12 107:3 123:20 252:18 253:4 listings 123:19 213:1 literally 271:22 literature 231:22 little 6:17 13:15 19:3 35:19 44:4 52:4 53:2 69:13 87:4 106:7 119:3 134:2 140:16 141:4 174:5 207:16 211:15 213:10 220:12 251:4 262:2,6,13 265:10 266:6 281:6 309:8 329:11 living 91:10 LLC 2:22

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 33

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 load 269:1,17 278:21 289:21 290:22 291:3 305:13 310:1 326:13 loaded 235:10 loads 265:22 326:16 located 308:8 locations 112:11 Lochinvar 2:21 lock 177:18 locking 274:16 Loenstein's 327:22 logical 48:19 long 28:4 37:8 40:6 42:13 57:1,4,5,6 58:6,16 64:14 78:22 110:5 118:11 179:17 182:16 184:21 196:15 197:18 202:9 209:15 223:1 237:13 239:21 284:16 longer 45:15 52:9 157:15 184:6 192:13,20 193:5 194:14 208:14 209:1 look-back 41:22 loose 327:7 lose 91:6 loss 215:20 261:13 266:16 281:3 losses 269:18 lost 12:16 132:13 155:13,21 lot 14:20 17:16 22:18 23:17 27:20 35:13 36:20 39:22 49:5 59:21 60:22 63:17 64:5,11 66:2 70:13 72:12 73:6 87:19,20 89:22 91:2 94:7,8 98:16 110:15 113:14,17,20 115:1 118:22 123:12 126:11 127:22 128:17 129:4 130:20 134:11 135:6 145:12,16 146:6,10,15,16 147:12 149:3 150:3 155:5 156:14 183:12 198:17 202:1,8 203:17 208:4 211:16 213:5,11 217:15 232:14 257:11 258:18 260:22 280:22 292:2 311:4 313:11 317:14 320:10,14,19 326:21 327:5 333:17 lots 21:22 53:13 119:18 208:1 303:12 loud 4:21 16:22 louder 102:2,5 louvered 321:11 low 118:8 142:16 145:19 216:1 249:6,8,11,14 251:11 252:11,15 253:10,13,16,17, 18 254:18 255:11 266:18 280:19 281:4 297:21 301:10,19 302:6 311:16 312:2,4,6,8 318:7 322:5 326:16 335:9,10,13,15,1 7 lower 65:14 121:22 209:3 229:9 251:4 259:21 318:8 lowered 155:4 lowest 228:8,9 lunch 4:8 139:15,17 140:11,14,16,20 M machine 4:4 magnitude 87:13 mailing 5:17 main 136:1 mainly 171:3 289:7 maintain 175:6 237:13 269:22 maintaining 177:9 253:5 major 51:11 majority 84:19 maldistribution 147:1 MALE 12:11,16

17:8 25:14,17 70:10 75:20 101:14,20 103:13 104:2,7,17 107:6 138:8 140:18 166:9 168:22 203:10 221:13 281:11 283:11,13 286:9,11,13 294:16,19 296:10,18 312:7,13 332:22 man 90:7 manage 136:21 manages 118:18 managing 118:15 manufacture 39:22 138:15 202:1 205:18 manufactured 129:11 172:6 173:1 176:17 manufacturer 11:8 13:8,22 14:19 15:2 16:11,18 17:14,17 27:19 28:21 35:15 38:17 39:8 42:11 44:15 48:14 55:17 56:6,16 62:1,17,20 79:22 86:13 94:6 97:7 98:5 105:2 110:11 112:22 115:10 117:19,21 118:10,14,18 120:12 126:13

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 34

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 135:10 137:11,17 139:3,9 142:9 144:4 145:13 150:18,20 159:8 162:3 172:6,10,20 173:1,18,19 174:6,11,13,19,2 2 175:1,8,10,12,14 ,20 176:4,7,9,12,16, 21,22 177:6,13,14,19,2 0 178:17,18 205:10 216:12 230:19 233:14 250:19,20 258:17 287:9 manufacturers 13:6,11,21 14:15 21:22 28:13 33:20 46:19 65:12 66:4 68:7 87:16,17 104:13 115:3 128:1 133:13 137:20 143:17 145:11 176:11 208:11 209:2 221:12 222:12 234:4 253:10,17 316:14 320:18 324:2 manufacturer's 26:20 79:20 86:9 88:11 120:3 135:6,14,16 149:8 156:21 176:13,15 manufactures 68:22 manufacturing 2:16,19 3:4 82:20 89:15 113:5 135:17 177:16 179:16 198:19 207:20 213:18 214:10 250:10 263:22 324:4 328:18 329:18 map 42:4 77:7 126:12 222:3 maps 220:18 222:17 223:22 Marantan 3:2 186:5,11 187:13,19,22 188:2,5 191:10 237:21 238:4,18 245:7 247:11,17 248:10,20 249:4,13,18,21 250:4,7 251:14 262:16 263:11,17 264:13,21 265:4,7,11 272:14 273:8,19 274:1 275:4,21 276:6 277:4,9,14 280:17 284:7,17 290:4,8 291:22 292:6 296:19 297:16 301:17 302:16 303:4,10 305:14,21 308:4 309:16 310:8,13 311:4,12,14,18 312:1,5,11,15 313:7,12 314:5,12,17 315:20 318:13 321:1,7,15,17 322:1,4,8,10,18, 22 323:5,16 324:5,9,15,20 325:3,13,21 330:17 334:21 335:7,11,17 margin 86:15 Mark 2:14 107:2 225:4 228:16 233:11 252:9 255:22 258:16 325:17 327:1 marked 164:17 market 107:13 150:21 157:21 252:22 313:11 322:21 Mark's 332:20 Marlin's 281:9 Marshall 218:13 278:8 283:21 307:9 Mart 333:22 Mary 2:12 340:2,11 mass 229:8 240:11 Massoud 3:6 191:16 195:9 mass-produced 110:15 match 26:2 67:6 238:17 300:22 material 230:13 313:17 materially 168:12 materials 237:16 math 53:14 matter 27:3 34:6 56:12 62:13 181:10,12,16 198:21 228:1,3 234:6,7 293:8,15 305:6 323:9 matters 4:3 max 150:2 maximum 27:22 may 19:13,14 31:12,13 32:13,18 33:14 45:8 48:13,14 68:17 69:3 74:14 82:19 84:11,14 88:14 106:13 117:21,22 123:7 128:17 144:12 148:14 154:7 158:7 159:15 162:2 190:17 192:21 193:5 194:17 197:11 203:10,12 205:10,14 212:8 214:5 236:19 247:1,5 251:5,8 259:19 274:10,16 296:11 298:15 301:6 319:17 maybe 13:1 32:7,8,10 38:13 45:3 49:22 52:7 55:10 67:8 68:19 71:6 74:4,6 79:4 83:18 85:21 89:20 96:2 108:15 116:16 123:6 127:10 128:22 134:6 135:4,15 141:8 142:16,21 143:9 148:19 164:13 179:2,7 186:12

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 35

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 198:18 202:12,14 212:21 217:2,12 227:18 228:20 230:12 240:20 241:3 244:22 245:8,20 246:1,3 248:1,8,19 259:3 274:9 275:17 277:6 297:12,17 307:16 317:1,21 318:15,20 319:2 335:7,19 McQuay 2:20 mean 14:16 16:4 17:16 18:10,13 20:9 21:1 25:15,19 27:5,20,21 28:20 29:17 31:7,14 35:4,13,20 37:18 38:3 39:22 41:15 44:20 56:20 58:7 60:3 63:10 68:21 72:1,2 73:9 78:1 81:1 82:15,18 84:16,18 88:16 91:5 93:4,22 97:22 98:14 103:20 105:6 110:18 114:2,21 116:22 123:6 124:2,9,10,17 127:19,22 129:16 132:22 134:16 136:1,14,15 138:1 139:2 141:6,11 142:15 145:15 151:11,18 157:2 158:11 159:14,18 160:7 162:14,16 164:17 166:9 169:15 176:19 177:11 180:7 182:3 186:18 187:9,21 189:7 190:13 192:9 196:5 201:4 203:4 204:9,10 205:1 206:8 209:16 210:21 211:8,20 212:9 213:5 217:6 218:1 220:1 222:2 223:4,19 224:17 226:13,17 229:17 230:18 231:17 232:11 236:17 238:13 239:2 240:15 241:9 242:4,9,12,14,16 ,20 243:8,16 246:2 253:16 263:2 266:5,13 267:11 269:6,14 271:18 272:2 273:2 275:16 276:19 279:19 281:1 283:16 284:13,15 285:6,12 286:15 287:4 288:22 293:6 296:4,13 299:13 300:14 302:1 306:7,20 307:3 312:6 316:3 317:15 319:20 323:4 325:10 332:20 meaning 48:10 129:1,3 means 29:2 53:19,21 71:12 80:6 107:2 121:6 133:20 134:9 146:11 190:14 196:14 199:11 202:8 203:17 218:3 241:15 260:21 274:4 276:17,18,22 292:15 298:9 300:7 306:22 308:8 310:18 meant 30:7 54:20 116:2,8,12,18 117:2 121:20 221:19,22 226:1 measure 156:7 180:17 187:14,17 268:1 272:15 286:22 measured 265:14 267:10 335:12 measuring 270:2 290:17 mechanical 278:14 279:5,15 mechanism 131:10 162:16 medium 249:21 250:5 301:13 303:7 311:6,7,16,18,19 312:1,6,9 335:13 Medium's 311:6 meet 36:20 41:7 42:10 52:9,10 54:6 63:6 84:22 138:5 205:18,20,21,22 211:12 212:14 257:1 306:8 315:9,17 meeting 1:4 4:17

7:12,21 12:8 41:17 65:3 82:10 91:15 115:18 122:4 131:6 163:4 164:22 165:14,21 171:5 235:16 262:15 336:3 meetings 5:16,19,20 6:5,6,16 47:8 130:17 meets 88:13 235:18 member 54:10 95:19 108:8 109:17 members 5:16 108:21 272:1 membership 109:19 mention 17:18 188:20 238:1 314:13 315:20 mentioned 51:10 80:21 262:17 mess 45:22 46:10 met 32:9 41:2 metal 316:10 metals 248:4 256:9 meter 268:9 metric 187:2,17 236:16 249:22 289:22 306:3,8 metrics 187:21 Meyers 3:4 19:6,7 22:16,21 23:1,3,7 26:22

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 36

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 27:6 28:12,15 32:21 33:3,8,12 35:4 38:15 54:20 55:3 58:20 59:4,6 62:15 75:9,12 76:21 77:2 80:6,10 94:11 101:15,22 105:4,10 115:22 117:10,13 120:17 121:2,6,17 122:8,10,17,20 123:1,5 124:2,4,9,13,16 125:4,13,22 126:4,6,9 136:12,19 164:14 217:17 222:20 232:6 241:14,21 242:2,8,11 243:4,14 244:2,7,10 255:19 256:12 279:12 286:15,19 287:21 288:4 290:16,21 291:4 302:20 303:8 314:10 315:16 318:2 319:7,10,13,21 320:10 322:7,9,19 mic 102:3 Michael 2:22 3:7 micro 230:6 232:13 238:14 middle 260:2 Mike 5:6 39:2 41:5 53:7,10,15 260:9 mild 297:21

milder 279:5 mile 317:5 miles 35:22 54:18 million 53:6 128:18,19 millions 51:17 mimic 225:17 mind 17:14 21:18 50:22 51:15 52:3 69:4,11 73:7 150:19 234:20 245:10 246:1 mindset 100:5 mine 87:8,9 121:17 165:7 273:22 317:3 minimal 313:18 minimum 135:10 188:4 198:8 204:10,12 205:21 208:18 278:1 290:15 315:18,21 321:10 minimums 315:9 minor 171:12 172:3 minute 21:9 38:20 114:12 minutes 71:2 miserably 64:7 misimpression 246:17 missed 73:15 missing 89:13,18 96:2 178:8 255:9 294:10 mistakes 151:13

misunderstanding 121:8 Mitsubishi 2:13 15:8 27:18 34:5 54:8 68:13 82:14 93:19 102:18 mix 67:6 191:6 274:6 276:10,13 mixed 297:3 mixing 296:22 297:1,5 mode 309:22 326:14 model 10:6 11:20,21 14:20 17:2,7,11 21:18 23:13,17,22 24:5,7 25:6,19 33:13,16 55:4,8 56:4 62:18 69:10,18 71:8 72:5,7,10 73:22 74:13,16 78:16,21 79:7 81:4,12,18 99:3,4,13,15 100:10,12 102:8,9,19,21 103:1,8,11,22 104:9,11,16,22 106:9 107:4 116:12 123:13,16 124:8 125:22 126:5,7,8 128:18,19 130:3 131:3 145:13,19 146:2,4,21 147:6,8,9 148:12 151:1 157:3,7 160:13,22 164:15 165:10 166:3,4,5

171:1,3 172:13,16 173:2 176:3,4,6 177:2,11 178:3,19 179:15,16,19,21 180:5 181:13 182:21 183:2,5,9,10,20, 22 184:1,7,9,10,13, 15,16,20 185:4,10 188:22 189:4,21 190:10,19,22 191:1,9 192:17,21,22 195:7,20,22 196:1,5,12,13,16 ,21,22 199:4,8,11,18 200:13,14,16,20 201:2,8 202:2,8 203:18 208:20,22 209:5 213:2,14,15 214:16 215:6 218:19 220:13,15 221:6,9 222:11,13,14 223:9,11,18 225:6 226:16 227:10,13,15 229:7 230:6,8 231:9,17,18,21,2 2 234:5,22 237:3 240:16,19 252:18,20 256:17 315:1,6,7,8,13,1 5 332:3 modeling 17:1

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 37

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 25:7 73:4,7 77:16 118:3 126:4 models 10:11 11:5 13:6,10,17,21 14:4,6,20 15:20 16:14 17:11 19:14 20:4,15,18,19 21:20 23:11 26:1,15,20 27:3 28:19 29:4,7 30:13,21 31:12 33:7 35:16 37:20 38:3,5 55:6,11,13,18 56:8 58:22 60:17 61:1,3 66:2 69:18 72:8 73:13,20 74:11,13,19,21,2 2 75:1,2 76:7,10 77:12 78:11 80:2 81:10,11,14,18 82:4,6,11 84:17 94:5 101:9 103:17 104:5,7,13,14 105:7,16,17,19,2 2 106:2,3 116:2,3,5,9,15,1 6 117:18 120:13,14 121:19,21 122:5 123:4 125:3,7,14 126:15 127:14,16 128:3,6,16,17 129:9,10 130:6 142:8 145:12,18 146:15 161:1,5,10 172:9 179:22 183:12 188:21 196:3 199:17 200:21 202:18 210:9,11 214:17,18,21 221:1 303:18 modification 80:22 81:7 261:21 272:17 285:21 290:5,17,18 291:1 303:11 312:16 321:2 324:10 325:1 modifications 263:14 284:18 312:17 modified 6:17 29:3 72:11 272:15 modify 46:20 142:13 175:10 268:15 270:18 271:7 286:7 329:9 Modifying 272:10 modular 197:5,6 module 195:1 moisture 292:10,12,18 293:7,19 299:15 300:12 325:6 326:10,18 Molvie 3:3 138:10 139:11 moment 99:11 100:20 Monday 1:11 money 53:3 90:10 150:3,7 198:13 290:11 324:14 month 43:16,20 83:21,22 84:1,6 156:2

months 27:12,13 36:18,21,22 37:4 39:7 40:12,13,20,22 41:1,6,12,13,14, 16,20,22 42:14 43:13,20 44:2,8 45:3,5 50:16 61:10,12,14,16,1 8,22 62:1,5,21 80:2 82:16,19 83:14 84:11 93:20 114:15,17 115:2 319:19 morning 8:4 52:12,17 140:14 142:12 335:22 motor 35:6 77:6 78:3,12,13 87:7 88:8 235:11 245:14 267:6 268:22 269:1,7 272:21 motors 86:12,14 88:9,10 133:5 192:12 265:22 274:21 mount 272:20 mounted 321:18 move 8:12 12:12,15 45:2 71:14 89:3 93:13 110:2 330:17 moved 100:2 moves 317:21 moving 7:3 83:16,17 100:1 142:11 226:15 238:22 308:5 MS.HOOTMAN 311:3 multi 191:6 267:3,4 multiple 34:7 63:1 145:7 196:14 214:20 215:1 250:14 255:12,13 274:4 multiples 193:7,8 multiplication 213:20,22 multiplied 128:22 200:2 multipliers 200:7 multiply 189:8 195:14 214:22 mx 190:16 213:12 Myers 3:5 21:11 22:7,14 41:19 46:12 60:20 65:10,18 66:9 68:10 103:14 143:10,15,19 144:2,6,9 145:4 148:13 149:3,13,18 150:1,16 151:4,8,22 152:9,21 153:2,19 154:21 173:14 174:5,10 175:7,13,22 176:5 177:12 178:3 189:15 190:6 266:15 268:18 269:6 271:15 272:18 273:4,6,10,21 275:1,3 287:15 288:7,15 298:9 299:3 310:4,10,22

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 38

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 315:4 324:12,16 myself 191:16,18 327:21 330:16 N NA 321:3 naive 86:5 narrow 37:7 52:7 NATALIA 337:2,14 Natasha 1:17 National 2:9 35:10 42:22 57:11 80:21 127:8 195:20 nature 31:14 Navigant 2:3 NCAA 162:4 nebulosity 49:6 necessarily 38:3 63:7 86:17 135:14 137:14 138:5 181:19 195:3 235:7 296:7 necessary 40:7 246:22 neg 169:7 negative 167:5,19 169:19,20 236:21 251:13 252:6 256:14 280:9 negatively 168:19 169:9 negotiable 258:21 negotiation 258:21 negotiations 23:16 246:21 Neil 2:3 168:22 178:9 neither 38:13 337:7 nervous 58:6 Neshan 3:6 179:11,14 180:8,10,20 181:4 182:2,7,10,13,15 183:8,15,20 184:8,12,18,20 185:6,13,18 186:3,8,17 187:20 188:1,3 189:7,12 190:13,19 191:1,5 192:3,8 193:1,9,12,18 194:2,6,16,19 195:16,18 196:11 197:11 198:5 199:1,3,17 200:11,22 201:4,7,10,16,22 202:7 203:5,12,14,16 204:2,5,9 205:14,17 206:3 208:17 209:6 212:4,10,12,15 net 83:19 241:4,5,10,11,13 neutral 333:19,20 Newton 76:2 nice 291:6 night 301:3 nine 243:3 nobody 14:5 267:3 nomenclature 300:19 nominal 241:6,7,11,15,19 ,22 242:1,7,11,12 243:17 nominally 243:7 nomination 243:21 non 82:1 196:8 313:7 non-coated 314:20 noncompliance 45:11 57:18 58:1,3 non-porous 314:1 NOPR 92:11,13 93:6,7 167:3,12,15,16 168:2 169:17 271:5 nor 18:16 337:8 norm 255:14 normal 139:10 160:21 175:16 176:1 normalization 187:14 normalized 186:14 normally 220:2 255:12 no's 167:20 note 7:11 112:6 171:12 noted 266:18 notes 166:18 330:15 338:5 339:5 340:5

341:5 nothing 7:2 26:9 43:4 59:17 66:7 203:8,9 209:14 217:8 234:10 253:12,15 261:8 266:17 notice 18:2 178:5 247:2 280:17 notification 43:2 notified 44:10 notifies 44:5 68:14 NPRM 168:20 169:10 246:16,18 NSF 205:18 nuance 73:14 81:7 nuances 73:6 76:19 numerical 226:1 numerous 19:8 O object 163:11 166:16,19 167:8,12 170:12 208:12 objecting 166:21 objection 184:12 objections 6:11 163:9 objective 64:2,11 objects 321:13,21 322:3 Obtain 157:10 obvious 134:19 obviously 14:4

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 39

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98:18 130:6 192:13 261:9 323:20 occur 42:2 63:10 136:16,17 occurring 294:6,8 o'clock 139:12 335:22 odd 170:17 odds 94:6 offer 5:10 145:16 offered 172:9 offerings 105:3 Office 331:4 offset 9:3 10:15 oh 8:18 13:2 21:8 33:8 90:7 104:1 107:5 135:2,20 158:17 159:10 170:7 198:5 201:4,6 203:15 222:5 224:4 264:22 271:7 280:1,2 281:8 283:7 284:9 289:14 296:22 297:14 308:6 314:5 OHAR 331:15 oil 9:2 10:10 11:9 301:22 oil-fired 8:22 9:6,8,9,14 10:16 11:5 old 73:11 76:7 86:7 156:15 on/bolt 288:22 one-by-one 245:8 one-foot 200:9 one-of-a-kind 202:18 oneoff 330:19 one-off 203:22 205:1,8,9 one-offs 203:1 332:19 ones 42:11 65:15,16 72:22 107:14 118:1 198:17 203:19 204:20 257:6 292:21 293:11 294:2 296:3 301:4 one's 84:2 114:2 one-sided 86:18 250:8 one-time 175:13 one-to-one 11:20 ons 329:2 onto 247:8 292:7 308:5 open 110:10,18 155:5 185:2 210:19 213:9 215:14 238:19 262:10 283:1 opened 59:8 opening 135:5 180:22 198:6 210:16 211:13 262:13 operates 238:15 operating 126:12 223:22 229:11 240:11 operation 37:18 308:22 opinion 124:10,17 opportunity 139:16 174:13 314:20 opposed 21:13 25:2 153:16 159:5 211:6 212:22 234:2 268:22 273:7 option 93:1,8 110:10 111:3 123:11 137:7 147:4 153:8 167:18,21 205:16 233:14 254:10,14 258:12 266:19 288:2 312:7,8 323:10 options 122:5 123:15,17,19 147:5 225:14 232:15 233:21 255:11,12,13 256:5,13 263:12 264:16 287:13 293:2,3 303:10,14,19 305:22 312:16 325:1 335:1 order 6:22 63:13 85:5 87:12 118:9 152:14 154:21 177:21 224:4 231:18,21 239:6 274:5 285:7 287:8 288:4,19 307:5 314:20 326:15 orders 231:17 orifice 220:21 original 29:1 45:22 46:6 174:21 176:7 177:5 ostensibly 188:22 others 13:7,10,11 42:1 165:22 257:11 271:17 316:17 otherwise 27:16 83:7 236:7 270:7 319:18 ought 37:14 142:15 ours 287:21 ourselves 157:4 274:16 outdoor 248:8,10,21 252:4,5 274:6,7,8 277:6 279:4 280:8 285:12,15 286:2 292:16 293:19,22 294:18 295:2,8 296:22 297:3,5 299:15 300:7 302:4 307:8,9 313:21 321:12,19 outdoors 285:2 outliers 66:5 outlined 143:12 output 135:15,16 outreach 70:7 outside 4:6 17:4,19 39:11 61:14 64:13 65:17,18 66:4

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 40

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 266:21 275:14 277:17 279:20 280:8 283:13 291:11 292:20 300:1 306:15,18 321:18 outsider 236:14 outstanding 12:5 outvoted 221:14 overall 16:7,8 overly 135:15 321:14 oversimplification 134:1 overturned 45:20,21 owned 174:11 owners 266:8 P p.m 336:1 pack 309:4 package 10:3 12:10 146:10 163:1,3,13,14 177:14 288:1 packaged 272:20 packages 297:19 packaging 327:7 pact 245:1 page 100:10 171:11 pages 170:18 paint 314:14 320:15 pair 298:6 panel 269:5 pants 119:6 paper 48:15 49:8 253:5 264:19 paragraph 271:9 291:14 parallels 260:6 parameters 85:11 277:17 Pardon 192:5 273:4 parenthetical 148:20 participants 2:5 82:2 108:17 participate 99:20 participation 99:8 102:10 109:1 particular 15:2 25:16,19 64:6 70:7 87:2 88:16 108:8 135:12 159:8 166:19 181:10 254:3 255:13 262:14 264:12 268:20 301:9 particularly 141:4 297:19 parties 159:19 337:8 part-load 220:3 party 39:6,11 59:16 67:6 143:16 144:4 148:17,21 149:1,7,9,16,19 150:10 151:3,7,9,16 152:1 153:8,10 159:16 168:10 169:19 329:9

pass 40:21 86:19 97:15 98:12 111:12 167:20 235:12 passed 64:9 139:6 passing 32:4 73:13 passionate 259:1,3 password 316:12 past 5:22 14:7 16:5,6 27:17 201:7 231:7 250:13 318:8 326:17 patents 111:15 pattern 38:19 Paul 2:13 15:8 27:18 34:5 35:21 54:8 68:13 82:14 93:19 102:18 129:12 pause 216:15 pay 91:8 paying 69:8 152:16 153:4 PDA 236:16 penalize 125:2 penalized 47:3 penalty 162:2,4,7 215:22 pennies 320:11 people 5:16 8:19 10:7 29:2 37:7 49:6,12 52:10,16 54:5 65:2 66:21 70:17 89:3 94:17 99:14 100:22 106:20 115:20 121:12 127:9

139:14 140:10 163:5,19 164:18,19,21,22 171:4 202:22 215:4 239:20 284:13 317:17 327:4 329:6,9 332:22 333:1,7 per 15:15,17 104:10 117:13 118:12 160:22 180:17,21,22 181:1 182:3 183:1,20,21,22 184:1,7,19 185:11,12,21 186:1,2,3,7,9 187:2,14,20,22 189:21 191:3,5 193:6 202:3 208:10,11,14 209:9,21,22 211:2 212:1,6,7,22 213:4 214:8 215:15 239:10 251:2 perceived 70:1 percent 9:7,10,15 10:15 11:11 14:19 15:14 19:1 36:3,4 109:7 121:19 123:3 134:7 137:5 195:3 204:20 207:5 229:9 249:8,15,16,22 250:3,11 254:4,5,7,8 255:15 262:18,22 266:17 274:7 277:6,13,21

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 41

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 281:8,10 282:7,8,10 311:8 312:4,7,10 313:20 316:20 318:18,19,20 319:2,6 322:6,15,17,18 335:14 percentage 13:17 14:4,9 15:6 18:12 19:1,11 58:22 122:16 277:18 317:13 percentages 18:17 perception 203:6 perfectly 125:15 perforated 321:9 perform 134:10,11 152:4 158:1 212:5 299:10 320:17 performance 77:7 88:15 220:3,6 222:3,14,17 227:21 228:11 230:17 237:14,16 238:4 239:21,22 240:1,9 241:2 251:1,3,10 262:7,11 performed 148:15 149:16 154:11,13,22 performing 134:6 performs 134:18 206:8 perhaps 22:8 38:18 49:7,19 67:10 106:16 143:4,11 175:10 250:22 275:21

period 15:10,11,19 16:19 17:3,13 18:1 28:3,4,6 31:16 40:10,16 42:20 43:20 44:19 45:4,10 52:9 56:11,14,15 58:4 75:19 79:11 81:17 83:4 84:11 94:5 155:8 156:2,3 168:16 186:11 permissible 9:13 11:14 185:8 perpetuity 56:17 persistent 69:6 person 45:2 73:7 89:7,15 127:17 perspective 14:13 32:12 55:16 97:20 145:20 211:15 Pete 138:10 Peter 3:3 PG&E 218:13 283:21 307:9 ph 128:14 179:1 phase 265:20 Phil 85:3 Phillip 3:13 87:9 112:5,20 156:19 161:18 165:4 philosophy 246:20 phone 8:17,18 43:1 128:11 279:21 phrase 172:6,20 physical 185:17 191:20 194:14 216:14,17 238:1 240:7 244:17 245:9,14 274:17 298:13,16 physics 77:16 pick 13:22 14:3 26:1 39:5,12 43:16 85:14 113:17 125:9 126:2 231:21 335:19 picked 21:22 114:7,9 126:18 picking 113:22 226:10 picks 114:15 piece 48:15 49:8 74:12,14 152:10 153:5 174:14 175:18 pieces 215:5 pipe 68:9 pipes 292:7 places 152:14 plain 171:10 plan 13:3 300:7 plant 326:17 plate 230:5 232:13 play 187:15 player 64:12,15 143:22 players 64:2,8,18 65:19,21 playing 90:18 92:16 please 4:3 52:2 103:15 152:6 163:20 169:1

179:11 203:5 204:5 plug 133:21 213:19 plugging 119:22 plus 190:9,16 298:12 299:19 pocket 150:7 point 8:18 14:5 20:10 22:8,11 23:15 26:5 31:15 32:12 43:3 55:12 58:7 80:1 82:22 88:3 93:16 98:1,8,10,11 99:22 105:13 115:20 130:19 131:9,20 134:22 142:10,14 143:9,22 152:3 154:16 156:6,13 159:12 160:18 166:22 176:8 181:5 183:14 184:4 200:11 203:20,21 205:15,19 206:21 236:22 248:16 271:20 273:13 291:15 301:7 305:10 323:20 328:22 329:1 330:11 points 60:3 61:19 108:6,7 109:9 119:22 218:8 251:15 303:21 police 83:11 polynomial 77:6 pondering 216:7

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 42

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 pool 80:4 255:17 256:2 popular 266:12 population 137:10 207:1,3,4 317:11 portfolio 51:20 portion 87:14 position 96:13 168:12 169:4 208:15,16 positions 274:5 positive 280:9 possibilities 4:9 19:19 possibility 85:4 93:1 141:21 172:13 226:14 267:19 331:14 possible 19:16 21:14 50:18 52:16 55:4,8 64:22 85:12 88:15 92:11 104:14 122:5,11,13 123:1 128:9,10,15 173:9 208:1 209:2 210:14 215:7 267:11 290:12 293:5 316:15 331:5 334:18 possibly 108:4 112:12 237:6 post 82:13 320:4 potential 57:16 63:9 118:7 135:10 211:20 321:13 potentially 21:17 57:12 145:18 167:18 212:19 301:2 power 65:5 195:1 229:9 240:13 248:16 250:6 265:13,15,16,18, 19 266:7,20 267:4,20,22 268:4,9 269:21,22 270:2 272:15 273:1 291:15 299:21 305:11,13 PowerPoint 170:17 practical 22:5 27:2 practice 25:22 182:21 practiced 99:4 102:9,21 pragmatic 22:5 66:10 preamble 168:15 169:21 pre-approving 156:20 preconditioning 297:4 preconditions 292:16 297:2 predicated 99:3 101:19 102:7 124:7 predict 142:6 148:12 predicting 76:10 prediction 146:19 predictor 88:15 prefer 22:19 140:10 preferable 111:4 preference 37:2 110:17 270:2 preferential 108:4,21 prepared 247:14,18 248:6 preselected 42:11 present 69:14 139:9 267:15 presentation 49:18,20 presented 235:9 pressure 69:22 70:14 235:2 238:7,8 239:8,9 240:4 281:3,4 298:2 299:17,18 300:2 301:11 302:13 308:16 presumptions 100:3 pretty 38:11 55:9 65:20 126:3 151:11 225:16 235:19 243:15 249:8 256:16 323:21 prevalent 303:4 309:6 322:11 prevent 226:18 prevents 251:21 previous 42:6 112:6 131:6 237:22 251:12 311:15 previously 168:11

price 70:10 primarily 295:5 primary 10:8 185:16 216:12 217:2 229:6 prior 100:2 Private 174:3,4,6 privately-owned 198:19 privilege 155:14 privileges 147:18 155:21 probability 85:15,17 probably 23:7 39:18 50:5 73:4,21 76:3 81:18 113:21 114:11 121:20 129:18 162:5 179:9 215:2 220:11 238:16 244:11 257:5 258:19 259:2 260:18 266:20 267:1 268:16 282:6,8 289:1 301:13,19 305:12 315:5 329:11 333:6 problem 26:13 31:2 47:1 69:6 70:1 74:2 75:13 90:19 92:1 96:9,15 108:2 113:20 114:3,4,12,13,16 115:2 124:19,20,21 125:8

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 43

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 126:8,13,14 146:22 159:5 173:12 189:10,11 197:22 202:1 204:11 219:5,7 250:11 255:3 274:15 281:3 325:22 problems 27:21 67:16 158:17 173:11 procedure 44:10 97:3 180:3 249:6 250:18 256:14 261:22 262:1 263:13 264:17 267:10,15 268:2,15 270:1,3,12,18,21 271:1,3,6,8,12 272:1,8,10,15,16 273:13 281:5,17 284:18 286:8 287:1 289:17,19,20 290:5,16 291:1 300:1,5 303:11,19 305:9 306:4,9,12 312:15,16 313:3 318:6,8 319:17 321:2 324:10,17 331:2,3,18,20 332:16 335:12 procedures 271:14,22 325:4 proceed 330:9 proceeding 337:3,4,5,7,9,10 338:4,5,8 339:4,5,8 340:4,5,8 341:4,5,8

process 5:14 17:17 42:9,13,15,16 45:16 48:3,4,16 53:18 58:7 63:20 73:18,22 79:5 87:5 89:15,22 90:14 94:8 110:21 113:5 120:11,21 130:18 131:8 133:13 135:17 137:19 138:1,2,16,17,21 148:8 175:17 292:8 296:15,16 308:7,13 309:14 310:4,5 316:2 326:16 333:2 processes 89:10 136:13,21 139:10 316:16 produce 253:17 278:18 produced 26:15 270:9 product 3:3 11:16 14:2 16:14 19:13 41:21 50:7 53:22 55:7 56:4 61:13 72:6 81:2 88:13,18 98:12 99:5,7,15 102:9 106:18 110:11 129:3 130:11 132:18 142:6 144:16,17,22 145:8 150:10,21 152:5 171:5 173:18 174:11 176:8,18,21 177:22 180:6 191:11 205:3,19 206:12,22

213:3,7,8 226:8 235:4,9 252:8,12 254:14,16 259:13,16,21 260:13,22 261:10 262:8,21 263:13 265:16 268:20 290:19 291:17,22 304:11 305:5,22 307:5 313:8,11 317:13,17,20,22 318:15,22 319:10 324:20 328:3 330:1,11,14 331:9,10,11,22 332:12 334:5,12 335:1,2 production 128:16,17 136:3,16 products 14:15 22:1 33:14,17 50:14,17 51:21,22 53:9 59:17 64:22 67:2 78:4 81:16 82:8,19 83:3 85:9 110:13 111:1 115:11 125:1 129:11 137:13 138:12,14 139:8 145:16 146:11 148:12 154:22 172:19 179:3,5 181:17 212:9 213:11 218:4 223:16 225:22 226:10 229:11 231:8 253:18 260:10 262:5 284:8 302:17 317:18 318:14 322:18 327:2 product's 298:1 Products 2:14 3:13 profile 210:19 program 16:13,18 20:2,12 36:12,15 37:17,19 46:11 50:22 52:2 53:5 54:10 58:14,15 59:22 62:8 65:8,19,22 66:3,5 67:3,11 68:16 69:5,13,15 70:7 88:7 98:2 108:5 119:18 127:2 173:17 176:1 177:21 programs 16:10 37:22 64:13 67:17 81:15 134:16 153:9 progress 307:17,18 projected 52:19 projects 52:20 promoting 309:12 properly 40:20 84:18,20 proposal 55:3 96:6 propose 92:3,6,8 151:8 proposed 28:8 55:2 169:20 247:2 proposing 61:8 181:18 213:16

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 44

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 270:17 protect 65:6 321:12,19 protection 67:20 protects 109:18 protocol 291:10 prototypes 14:1 prove 142:2 provide 44:15 144:13 160:8 162:14 163:18 167:4 173:19 209:19 226:7 244:21 300:7 provided 153:11 169:6 175:7 244:14,16 265:19 274:12 280:18 313:2,13 325:13 providing 209:21 243:8 278:1 provision 35:1 38:13 47:14 141:12 142:17 162:15 168:17 169:5,11,19 170:2 281:17 provisions 62:19 165:20 272:11 psychologically 137:18 PTACA 179:1 217:10 PTAGs 171:17 public 169:16 236:18 publically 262:7 publicly 92:14 publish 212:14,22 published 132:10,13 196:9 197:19 213:2 215:2 234:17,19 235:19 pull 86:2 119:15 122:8,10,12 164:22 244:13 283:18 285:12,15 pulling 113:20 114:6 302:3 pump 102:22 146:9 296:8 309:12 pumps 103:2 punitive 150:2 156:7 purchase 136:17 purchased 136:22 purchaser 87:9 88:12 pure 54:14 purpose 46:10 47:13 64:4 245:16,21 278:20 purposes 82:9 308:14 320:14 push 49:8 87:1 101:5 pushing 258:3 puts 36:20 putting 102:16 112:22 136:5 150:6 240:22 279:22 289:7 295:2,8 305:10

Pvi 3:5 21:11 22:7 41:19 60:20 65:10 143:10 173:14 268:18 287:15 288:15 Q qualif ied 88:6 qualify 153:15 235:3 330:10 quality 86:11 88:5,12 89:7 90:14 114:2,3 133:12 136:13,21 quantities 265:17 question 8:21 13:1,5 14:22 24:16 25:22 26:6 37:10 61:15 67:5 92:18,20 100:8 101:8 126:14 133:19 138:4 141:8,11 157:22 172:18 179:15 183:6 184:14 186:5 190:8 192:18 203:4 219:21 224:20 226:13 237:21 328:4 331:10,16 questions 5:14 6:8 7:19 8:15,20 12:10,19,21 16:1 26:10 54:9 141:2 155:11 158:5 160:10 161:16 164:20 165:13,19 267:5 queuing 108:12 quick 50:8

quickly 50:7 70:14 151:12 178:14 251:8 quite 42:13 44:12 50:7 69:14 128:20 134:19 154:7 255:12 292:8 335:9 quote 257:6 R raise 5:12 90:15 141:9 165:2 246:20 raised 115:20 121:9 133:11 164:12,21 216:6 raising 141:6 ran 185:7 224:4 random 62:13 63:20,21,22 81:16 82:4 85:13,14 112:10 range 9:7 13:21 14:1,3,14,15 25:6 243:18 250:5 277:12,16 281:8 282:7,9 293:1 327:17 rant 88:18 rate 7:3 33:17 72:5,8 74:4,22 79:20 121:20 125:12 128:15 129:1 133:6 145:19 180:2 181:21 182:1 204:22 205:1 228:7 229:8

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 45

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 230:7 rated 10:17,19 15:1,4,6 17:4 29:4 40:19 83:16 84:18,20 196:8 223:2 234:10 241:16,17 rather 33:22 70:14 74:1 79:12,16 99:10 142:21 159:14 194:15 266:22 272:12 323:10 rating 12:6 27:8,9,13,14 29:8 32:5,6,11,12,17 33:2 41:2,4,7,17 42:10 44:1 63:6 69:5 70:8 81:5 84:22 115:12 120:22 131:8,12 132:1,6,7,10,13, 18 133:3 160:20 176:20 177:6,9 196:8 220:22 227:4,21 232:19,21 233:1,5,10,13 234:6,7,12,14,16 ,18 242:22 282:16 283:17 301:10 303:17,18,20 304:13 ratings 14:17 29:12 31:7,11 32:5,22 67:6 69:16,20 74:12,18 76:10 80:11,13 82:5,6 83:5 118:4 119:2 120:1 142:2 145:14 211:18 232:20 ratio 9:11 rationale 257:16 rationally 60:22 re 325:18 reach 42:18 63:5 82:20 306:3 reaching 48:7 210:21 reaction 72:13 readdress 93:2 reading 83:13 91:2 124:13 239:16 268:10 295:11 ready 163:6 166:12 262:6 real 68:6 82:21 108:2 127:12 137:18 159:20 215:17 261:5 267:22 268:4 270:2 309:6 326:16 realistic 27:5 110:12,14 111:2 realistically 21:16 50:10 119:21 reality 26:18 29:15 122:21 158:14 306:18 realize 127:3 213:11 really 14:18 18:1 24:19 30:12 35:17 41:11 43:3,4 46:3 48:14 52:3 56:21 60:21 61:3 63:10,18 64:2 67:18 69:6 71:10 77:15 79:9 81:9,12,17 86:8,10 89:12 90:1 93:13 119:8 122:3 126:7 129:13 132:18 138:13 148:1 149:7 151:12 158:17,21 159:2,5,9 167:12 181:4 191:3 192:14 205:10 207:15 211:8 230:8,9 233:21 240:8 241:15 245:18 249:9 250:18 253:11 262:4 269:14 281:15 283:8 284:16 289:21 295:18 296:6,11 305:1 307:5 310:1 317:16 319:21 320:1 322:21 323:9 326:7 329:17 333:5 reason 13:5 86:3 132:7 205:6 209:3 224:17 240:21 251:8,20 reasonable 7:3 58:11 121:16 reasons 37:12 67:10 154:16 178:7 328:17,18 rebate 69:7 recall 12:5 311:7 receiving 64:5,10 recently 97:2 recess 71:3 246:10

reciprocating 222:2 223:1,8,14 226:15 recirculated 6:17 reclaim 308:7 309:9 reclaimed 310:9 reclaiming 296:14 309:10 recognition 225:6 recognize 109:4 recollection 169:11 recommend 22:17 253:7 recommendation 12:4 92:21 99:19 101:18 102:14 149:19 168:13,15 169:4 170:13 281:17 320:21 recommendations 102:11 reconfirm 155:20 record 4:19 5:1 57:1 189:1 337:7 recorded 291:14 337:4 recording 159:11 recordings 338:6 339:6 340:6 341:6 recourse 67:22 recover 141:20 292:10 297:21 302:10

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 46

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 308:12,13 recovery 292:8,15 293:18,20 294:13,22 295:3 297:20 298:22 305:3 308:7,8 310:5 326:9 redline 164:17 redo 31:8 119:5 161:5 redoing 161:2 reduce 154:12 158:8 159:15 184:5 248:3 251:2 278:20 279:4,15 280:5,6 294:19 314:1 reduced 337:5 reduces 325:6 refer 185:5 188:10 reference 171:3 244:6 referral 91:13 referring 190:5 248:2 reflecting 166:17 reflective 279:13 refrigerant 309:22 313:19 refrigerated 186:15 189:18,22 190:3 refrigeration 1:6 2:7,9 3:12 103:3,6 105:5 186:13 235:18 256:17,22 264:3 refrigerator 213:13 214:8 refundable 325:11 reg 169:7 regarding 69:15 regardless 14:22 38:10 155:15 227:16 regenerative 326:6 regional 292:3 regs 201:20 regulation 99:8 regulations 65:9 99:19 115:10 160:21 180:6 208:8 regulatory 65:3 162:14,15 206:14 208:6 reheat 255:18 256:4 325:18 326:4 rehitting 50:19 related 13:2 112:14 141:10 147:4 159:19 337:8 relates 101:5 relation 118:2 relationship 11:10,21 191:8 relationships 194:10 relative 251:17 252:10 262:16 284:7 302:16 311:8,14 312:5 322:10 335:9 relatively 252:11 266:19 relaying 245:22 release 306:19 relevance 55:5 200:20 reliable 285:17 relief 331:5,6,15 remaining 165:19 remanufacture 153:7 remember 5:11 38:13 44:4 61:10 140:17 168:4,20 173:16 188:15 250:2 319:16 326:17 remind 7:15 51:5 reminding 133:9 reminds 306:16 remote 125:8 192:6,7,10 194:9,20 197:2 remove 275:22 283:19 287:19,20 288:18 324:10,12 325:21 removed 157:16 287:17 292:12 324:18 325:2 re-organize 325:20 repair 255:5 repeat 226:4 repeated 174:22 repercussions 12:6 replace 5:4 267:4

replaced 144:3 replacement

61:12 255:4 replacements 262:12 report 7:12,16,18 8:8,13,14 105:14 120:14 129:16 131:14 163:11,12 166:15,16 170:12 182:7 184:15 196:6 198:4 210:2 211:5,6 212:6 213:14 reported 1:17 227:15 338:3 339:3 340:3 341:3 Reporter 337:1,2,15 338:3 339:3 340:3 341:3 Reporter's 338:5 339:5 340:5 341:5 reporting 1:18 120:11 225:13 227:13 represent 189:1 representation 332:11 representative 48:13 135:14,16 136:3,4 represented 52:1 87:13,15 representing

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 47

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 166:1 represents 18:12 request 5:15 206:6 266:8 303:16 330:13 requests 253:17 329:13 require 88:14 138:2 157:8 289:17 required 32:6 130:4 143:2 154:6,18 160:12 162:20 284:10,15 309:1 requirement 10:20 12:2 26:4 32:9 143:8 159:16 183:17 200:5 206:6 212:13 235:22 236:1 303:1 requirements 10:22 65:3 89:9 108:17 110:12 118:8 154:2,8,19 173:17 176:1 184:7 197:20 198:8 205:18 209:19 235:21 240:3 292:3 requires 162:5 318:7 331:4 requiring 261:10 rerate 32:8 78:4 126:22 131:2 rerated 28:20 120:14 130:7,12 rerates 118:7 126:20 127:4,5 rerating 130:4

reschedule 39:9 research 207:16 293:14 reserve 167:18 reset 26:18 27:15,22 29:2,6 41:2 83:20 resets 79:11 resetting 26:12 27:20 83:9 residential 23:8 67:2,7 72:18 88:22 213:13 220:9 242:4 resistance 260:6 286:6 resolution 178:16 resolve 12:9 26:10 330:18 resolved 52:17 resources 18:6 50:11 66:11 103:12 118:17 resource-specific 14:10 respect 50:22 respond 66:22 74:9 responding 24:16 response 6:13 7:8 170:11,15 268:17 responses 163:8 responsibility 87:2,8 88:11 responsible 149:8,9 177:9 rest 106:10 163:1 279:11 296:7 restriction 256:19 restrictive 127:21 241:4 restrooms 4:6,7 result 46:8 259:21 261:22 316:16 resulting 248:4 results 79:15 94:14 resume 154:6 157:11 160:19 retest 42:12 43:19 46:4,6,7,16,22 47:18 61:14 62:22 63:9 130:21 132:4 177:20 retested 57:22 retrieve 115:11 return 274:6 284:19 285:2 297:1,6 reverification 174:16 re-verify 178:1 review 143:7,11 revised 53:19 revision 53:22 74:1 revisiting 71:8 rewrite 81:2 rewritten 185:11 Rheem 2:19 3:4 19:8 22:16 33:18 172:13

Rheem's 123:3 rid 67:21 ridiculous 50:20 rights 148:6 174:12 rigor 156:15 ripples 101:9 risk 35:17 38:10 79:22 118:18 291:10 Rivest 3:7 5:6 75:17 78:19 79:2,4,13,18,21 80:8,12,18 81:6,21 82:17 83:15,18 103:22 123:9 124:3,6,11,15 125:16 126:2,17 184:14,19 185:4,7,10,15,21 186:2,4 188:18 189:5,10 190:8,15,21 191:3,14,17 198:3,20 199:2,20 200:1,8 203:13,15 208:10,19 209:7,14,20 213:11 214:19 218:1,22 219:4,8,10 225:10,17,20 226:6,19 227:2,10,13 230:11 231:8,14,19 232:2,10 234:7,13,16 235:13 239:7

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 48

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 240:13 242:6,9,18 243:2,8,19,21 244:4,13 245:3,22 256:15 257:8,11,15 258:2,8 267:5,9,14,19 268:3,5,12 269:16,20 270:14 273:2,5 275:19 277:1 279:7 291:10,19 295:11 300:6 304:8,21 306:2,11,22 315:19 316:11 317:3,17 318:3,10 322:13 RIVETS 53:17 road 93:16 225:22 255:2 Robert 3:15 roll 103:14 rolling 41:3,20 42:6 61:16,18 82:16 83:16 93:20 Ron 63:19 196:17 Ronald 3:10 roof 329:16 room 45:9 48:2 50:6,17 52:1 70:22 87:14,15 99:12 139:20 285:7,22 330:5 rooms 285:15 root 141:22 142:21,22 143:2,13 265:17 rotates 327:18

rough 282:17 283:4 roughly 53:2 round 230:5 232:13 rounded 242:18,19 route 161:14 routinely 253:16 row 89:2 126:2 rows 4:21 rule 92:5,6,8,22 93:2,3 261:11 331:7,13,14 rulemaking 8:12 91:18 259:16 260:2 271:5 272:12 rule-making 247:2 Rulemaking 1:3 336:2 rules 5:20,21 6:1 62:2 76:13 82:3 94:21 167:1 246:17 ruling 37:3 290:8 run 37:17 89:11 152:13 153:6 172:14 197:8 252:7,15 283:17 289:22 312:19 running 87:7 160:14 288:18 298:2 runs 320:6 Rusty 6:16 Rusty's 229:5 S Sachs 3:8 22:2,22 23:4,9,14,20 24:1 47:21 48:1,10,12,19 49:2,5,11,15,18 50:2 51:5 66:22 68:2,5,12,17 69:3,10 70:2,5 78:16 86:5,7,21 87:1 88:3 89:13,18 90:5,8,13,18,22 91:3,8 97:15,19 98:3,5,10 104:1 115:13 140:13 147:22 148:6 151:21 152:2,8,17 153:1,14 159:11 166:7,11 178:15,20 188:9,13,17 191:16,18 192:5,16 193:3,10,15,22 194:4,13,17 195:6 203:20 204:3,7,12,15,18 ,21 205:3,6,12,15 206:10,15,17 207:7,11,13 219:16 220:7,10 221:4,11,14,16 234:20 235:8 236:3,9 250:8 253:7 254:1,11 262:2 276:11,15 277:21 278:6 280:10 281:16 282:4 290:13 291:6 292:2 295:7,16 297:18 298:1,6 300:17,21 301:7 303:5 309:2,14 316:5,7 317:10 320:21 326:2,5 327:1,9,15,21 328:4,8,11,15,19 ,22 329:6,19 330:7,12 332:18 334:5 335:5 safety 86:15,20 87:5 90:9,12,15 92:15 sale 76:5 145:16 235:4 sales 254:3 salt 320:8 sample 13:16 16:2 40:7 89:8 112:11 125:19,20 137:8,9 138:3 203:22 samples 82:4 86:2 113:13 sampling 204:13 207:2 Sanders 128:11,13,14 SARAH 341:2,14 SARDINA 339:2,12 satisfied 129:15,17 159:21 satisfy 26:14 156:12 260:19 saturated 229:10 savings 69:8 saw 5:2 107:14 274:12

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 49

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 scalable 208:20 scaled 189:5 194:14 scenario 30:19 85:2 95:1 96:1 176:11 197:15 262:3 schedule 6:16 37:21 44:5,6 45:13 57:13 scheduling 38:6 39:10 school 76:3 scope 8:6,8,10,16 9:16 12:4 236:15 272:8 score 198:6 scratching 216:7 screen 54:7 101:13 141:3 247:13 313:20 321:9 325:6 scroll 139:22 141:13 222:2,16 223:1,7,13 224:4 226:14 scrutiny 109:5 se 211:2 sea 317:6 320:17 Seacoast 251:21 seal 283:19 286:13,16 289:3 search 265:7 second 21:15 40:7 41:2 46:14 54:15 56:18 61:6 62:21 63:5 67:19 115:20 121:6 122:1 123:6 124:4,19 140:8 144:17 175:1,8,9,20 176:3,15,16 178:17 218:6 277:4 secondary 207:19,20 second-guessing 130:2 section 164:18 210:22 266:6 325:20 sections 330:6 seeing 18:1 81:20 83:15 165:12 197:7 227:5,7 318:17 328:5 330:7 seeking 331:22 seem 13:12 15:12 35:3 46:18 48:3 173:16 277:18 seemed 67:3 seems 21:1 26:7 27:21 28:4 33:19 36:8,13 45:7 62:3 79:19 86:14 87:2 88:6 128:8 135:5 138:11 153:21 158:8 185:8 189:16 201:2 203:21 210:15 293:20 294:6 303:13 314:4 seen 5:22 16:5,6 176:10 185:9 203:8 269:3 301:18 319:20 320:3 segregate 208:3

select 13:20 14:1 40:19 62:12 104:7 226:8 selected 40:11,17 41:7 42:14 43:19 65:13,15 selecting 13:18 41:9 66:2 85:15 225:22 226:3 selection 14:7 39:15 41:10,15 42:3 58:20 62:13 63:20 81:16 selections 59:1 62:9 85:14 self 50:8 self-consistent 193:16 self-contained 191:22 192:3,6,7,10,19 193:2 194:8,9 sell 174:8 202:3,4 224:5 255:8 selling 177:13 309:22 semi 97:22 semi-vertical 191:7 send 27:10 49:7 91:12 92:2 217:19 291:7 329:10 sending 71:13 166:16,19 sense 15:5 63:17 66:1 71:22 140:11 176:20 181:8 192:15

202:5 204:1 206:8 218:2 220:7,10 221:6 247:19 262:3 306:13 317:14 sensible 295:6 326:12 sensor 245:15 sent 20:1 27:16 164:16,19 165:14 217:18,20 sentence 108:3 158:7 189:16 271:10 277:5 separate 12:7 19:13 93:3 94:17 102:14 138:1 161:2 174:19 176:3 202:17 252:18 272:12 275:18 307:1 312:22 328:3 separately 165:2 176:17 260:18 September 38:6 serious 327:2 seriously 201:12 215:17 service 230:12 238:16 257:5 services 5:10 session 219:17 sessions 203:21 sets 79:5 104:5 218:2 setting 9:5 87:5 307:1 331:12

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 50

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 settings 301:14 settle 92:12 settled 98:18 seven 112:11,12,14 243:5 Seventy-some 170:17 several 4:8 37:6 67:2 91:10 145:10 147:21 155:10 163:8 252:16 320:5 severe 137:19 severity 143:19 SharePoint 163:21 164:2 sharing 95:7 Shebik 3:10 55:19,22 56:3,8 57:2,4,6 63:19,22 182:19 186:1 192:6 195:9 196:18 202:17 203:3 shedding 310:1 sheet 4:15 168:16 169:22 229:18 321:9 she's 89:20 91:9 96:6 102:1 122:16 320:6 shift 135:18 265:21 268:11 shifts 136:11 ship 287:12 shipment 85:12 138:19 shipped 262:6 316:20 327:2 shipping 134:12 282:17 283:4 297:19 shocked 115:13 shooting 333:18 short 10:2 28:3 59:15 84:11 87:7 259:6 330:12 shorter 192:13 Short-term 161:9 shoulder 229:5 shows 41:12 42:10 sick 89:4 side-by 246:3 sided 86:16 sidetracked 51:16 sideways 51:16 Sigma 86:9 significance 55:12 significant 19:15 85:19 87:14 88:1 148:11 162:2 230:10 281:7 significantly 85:7 87:18 145:22 147:17 254:4 262:22 SIKES 338:2,13 similar 16:5 20:11 36:15 152:3 179:7 192:4 212:20 225:8,9 230:4 240:9,16 298:11 300:3 303:19 311:8,15 318:16 321:18 322:8 335:15 simple 18:17 113:2

213:20,22 271:6 304:20 Simpler 322:1 simply 123:17 229:20 238:4 261:11 simulated 69:16 simulating 25:8 simulation 88:7 simulation-based 67:5 69:5 simulations 69:20 single 13:12 16:11 21:19,21 31:19,20 32:2 33:15 34:8 128:19 146:10 152:4 199:14 210:22 285:14,22 sit 236:9 site 235:21 236:2 sitting 48:2 157:6 situation 144:13 174:10 205:13 206:19 six 27:11 32:22 39:7 75:2 85:8 86:9 114:8,9 144:3 146:8 147:10,14 149:19 150:10 151:2 153:12 156:1 158:2 160:12 179:17 186:18 193:17 197:12 218:20 334:12 six-foot 197:16

six-month 58:8 63:7 size 13:16 16:2 112:6 113:14,17,20 116:1,9,19,22 117:11,14 118:16 137:8,9 138:3 146:4 162:1,6 181:5 239:10 sizes 180:5 181:5 282:11 SJI 2:15 skew 137:16 slash 320:5 slice 215:4 slide 12:7,8 170:19,22 171:1 218:14 237:22 247:14 249:5,14 251:12,15 265:2,4,13 272:14 274:3 292:14 305:21 311:15 321:2 slides 170:17 171:2 218:9 234:21 247:18 248:16 264:14 slight 251:12,13 slightly 52:8 262:4 slim 50:20 94:7 slipping 51:13 sliver 200:9 slope 190:9,12,18 191:12 slow 67:11 271:21

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 51

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 slowly 101:20 small 19:11 52:1 72:22 88:10 117:22 126:3 137:8,9 162:3 198:19 263:7 266:19 281:18 316:16 317:15 330:3 smaller 85:18 215:5,8 281:5,7 282:10 smallest 85:9 215:16,19 smart 324:16 smoothly 6:3 8:19 snakes 210:17 software 69:18 70:8 sold 174:12 177:18 255:13 262:20 solder 134:18 135:2 soldered 135:12,13,15 solid 321:13 325:8 solution 106:14 solve 47:1 60:4 194:18 somebody 7:15 52:9 70:18 125:2,10 127:10 128:16 141:13,14,20 143:19 152:14,16 164:7 174:7 210:22 214:12 220:20 224:3,22 226:14 228:21 262:17 266:20 314:14 315:11 330:12 somebody's 128:5,8 247:9 294:3 somehow 26:12 95:21 someone 79:8 128:18 129:5 146:14 152:11 186:19 214:1 245:4 272:20 291:11 318:13 someplace 172:18 244:6 sometime 7:14 31:6 307:6 somewhat 17:18 172:3 185:3 somewhere 153:6 240:1 296:12 307:21 308:1 322:15 327:17 son's 89:16 sophisticated 332:19 sorry 56:3 95:17 114:14 130:19 155:18 169:2 178:10 190:14 217:20 226:4 233:5 253:14 254:12 260:8 264:22 305:20 327:21 sort 5:5 10:14 36:11 138:21 149:6 258:8 sorts 54:13 262:12 sound 249:1 sounds 18:20 19:20 111:3 147:10 214:19 239:20 298:17 306:4 source 10:8,9 87:19 166:8 185:16 216:13 217:2 308:10 311:2,21 312:18,20 320:22 Southern 3:6 space 326:19 334:10,11 span 11:15 147:21 spanning 147:12 speak 4:19,21 6:1 38:22 66:16 84:13 168:22 256:15 SPEAKER 12:11,16 17:8 25:14,17 70:10 75:20 101:14,20 103:13 104:2,7,17 107:6 115:6 138:8 140:1,3,18 166:9 168:22 203:10 221:13 281:11 283:11,13 286:9,11,13 294:16,19 296:10,18 305:18,20 312:7,13 332:22 SPEAKERS 63:1 speaking 4:22 66:1 138:14 speaks 274:13 spec 176:15 229:18 special 54:5 68:21 262:8 264:9 269:15 303:14,16 specialized 19:13 specialty 263:22 specific 12:22 19:12 34:2 62:17 67:1,14 68:22 77:6 79:16 81:17 110:9 144:16,21 146:6 152:6 153:14 169:19 230:6 231:21 232:11 254:5 292:21 321:14 330:1,8 specifically 13:2 82:15 112:9 141:11 225:13 258:14 263:7 specifications 35:5 specificity 225:21 specified 229:7 277:12 specifies 232:15 specify 39:18 158:1 232:16 267:14 spectrum 138:12 speculating 17:18 spend 49:2 50:14 89:14 198:13 320:18 spent 150:8 324:14 splits 146:10 sporadic 59:19

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 52

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 spot 111:12 spot-checking 111:6,7 spray 314:14 spreadsheet 217:16 SPVUs 171:17 square 180:22 211:5 squared 265:18 stab 221:17 stage 156:11 stand 4:22 162:22 305:2 standard 138:5 154:13 169:21 180:19,21 182:6 186:13 187:6 188:4,18 194:7 195:12 198:9 208:18 212:21 215:21 239:13 248:5 257:1 259:21 282:16 283:17 287:16 288:17,19 297:10 300:18 303:17 307:1,10 316:13 331:6,7,8,12,14 standards 1:3 9:5 71:19 180:4 190:2,15 191:10 212:20 290:15 297:15 300:15 318:7 331:4 336:2 stands 79:9 Stanonik 3:11 8:17 11:7 15:15,18 16:7 19:21 20:20,22 21:8,18 22:4 26:7 28:17 29:9,13,16,19 30:2,7 37:17 54:22 76:9,15 77:1,4,9,14,17,2 1 78:7,10,18 80:14,19 97:22 98:4,8,11,14 99:22 100:11,16,19,22 101:7,16 102:4,7 103:10,18 104:18 105:11,16,21 106:5,9,12 107:13 112:20 113:9,18 114:1,10,14,20 115:5,8,17 120:9 130:6,9,15 131:5 136:7,14,20 156:5 172:2,12,16 173:3,15,22 174:9 176:19 178:2 183:14 210:8 223:12,17 224:3,8,11 278:16,19 279:21 294:21 stars 106:3 start 8:16 12:17 21:5,21 40:17,20 41:6,13,16 43:1,5 45:7 56:22 76:19 111:14 112:3 157:9 179:3 247:20 248:1 249:13 281:5 335:21 started 28:9 138:16 140:22 246:11 starting 22:8,11 41:12 171:11 257:8 301:7 304:15 starts 40:10 118:21 stated 100:2 statement

46:17 98:20 209:15 229:1 States 120:13 static 239:4,7,9 240:4 281:2,4,9,18 300:2 Statistically 109:16 statistics 128:20 status 205:22 statute 162:5 253:15,18 259:10,11 260:9 331:8 statutes 253:12,19 statutory 272:11 331:6 stay 52:14 stays 318:1 steep 70:10 STEM 153:18 236:14 278:13,18,22 279:2,8,10 280:22 282:13 283:2,16 284:4 303:13,16 321:4 step 30:9,16 76:15 144:9 Stephens 3:13 85:3 86:4 87:11 112:5,10 113:7,10 115:3 137:7 144:12,19 145:1,7 156:19 161:18 162:18 steps 130:20 143:12 155:15 stick 109:20 sticks 69:10 stimulated 67:4 stock 110:16 112:7 177:18 stocked 50:7 stocking 288:13 stomach 194:18 stop 43:12 56:22 218:18 stopped 57:12 219:2 storage 309:18,19 311:10 store 3:6 333:8,11,21 335:1 stores 327:5,6 straight 214:5 stream 295:9,10 327:20 streaMS 293:8 street 4:10 strength 88:5 Stress 254:1 strictly 23:4

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 53

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 stringent 108:17 136:12 structure 321:18 332:15 structures 69:7 stuck 201:2 stuff 5:7 17:21 23:17 32:8 48:22 53:12,14 84:19 97:1 115:16 123:11 130:22 137:2 152:12 153:16 176:13 198:2 215:10 259:5 269:2,4 293:13 316:4 320:11,16 328:1 329:16 330:6 sub 294:8 subcommittee 48:4 170:14 subdivide 214:16 233:12 subject 85:10 submission 240:1 submit 5:19 7:22 196:2 subsequent 110:7 177:9 247:4 substance 168:15 169:22 substantial 317:10 substantiate 118:20 143:5 substantiated 118:10 substantiation 97:4 substitute 224:7,10 substituting 194:18 257:21 substitution 250:20 suction 229:10 sudden 322:21 suffering 215:22 suffice 164:5 suggest 8:10 70:16 98:15 144:2 186:21 307:3 suggested 52:8 121:8 122:1,14 148:13 249:1 suggesting 20:17 47:12 suggestion 48:12 271:2 272:18 suggestions 6:19,21 52:16 141:2 142:18 suggests 38:22 suitable 284:22 Suite 1:8 summer 292:13 Supermarket 313:9 supplemental 239:16 supplier 64:6 80:15 114:3,13 115:2 310:21 suppliers 35:5,6 80:7 87:15,18,19 133:7 supplies 305:11,13 supply 112:12 113:7,8,12 115:4 135:7 137:1 229:17 265:18 279:4 291:16 308:9 325:7 support 53:12 97:5 170:2 supported 11:9 177:7 supposed 8:11 134:11 137:1,2 163:4 207:1 sure 4:18,22 7:21 11:1 17:6 24:20 26:17 42:22 44:3 46:10,12 65:7 82:10 88:1,9 100:9 115:8 124:4,10 125:9 129:15 135:11 149:13 151:13 153:3 155:12 156:17 164:6 167:9,21 172:20 178:15 183:6 193:16 197:20 206:4,7 207:11 216:3 219:19 226:9 231:1 237:9 242:11 243:22 258:12 270:7 273:10 276:6 277:10 282:3 317:15 331:15 335:18 surface 215:19 313:21,22 323:2,15 surfaces 321:12 surprised 51:5 suspect 65:11 66:6 113:16 134:21 220:17 swimming 255:17 256:2 switch 9:2 144:17 swoop 173:7 sympathetic 64:19 system 50:14 103:3,6,8 134:5 228:12 235:18 238:22 241:20 242:4 256:17,22 258:4 279:3 280:12,13 286:17,20 288:21 292:15 296:17,18 298:10,14 299:1 304:15 305:3,7 307:10 326:13,15 systems 236:17 264:10 279:4 302:12 305:11 309:6 T table 55:1 110:2 112:8 140:6 161:14 166:8 167:2,6 173:12 202:22 231:2 taking 26:19 119:21 150:6 186:21 223:21 237:18 238:13 275:7 278:10 279:20 294:18 295:1,7 talk 7:14 8:4 12:7,13 13:15 57:21 70:17,18

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 54

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 95:14 99:17 113:1 115:15 131:10 138:13 139:13 141:4 146:17 165:2,19,22 167:7 178:4,22 210:21 227:7 266:6 282:14 297:17 talked 9:20 72:3,9 115:1 122:4 133:14 165:21 171:6 246:14 307:4 314:6 330:4 talking 8:6 15:14 28:1 33:5 45:4 52:6 57:11 62:9 69:1,16 79:19 96:11,21 99:15 102:2 104:2,4 106:16 111:5 116:8 117:18 122:16 130:16 131:14 141:17 147:12,22 151:10,11 155:6 164:14 171:11 172:19 179:15 182:20 184:8 186:9 203:6,19 210:18 211:2,16 212:18 213:8 216:11,15 229:5 231:2,7 237:10 239:1,20 240:2,8 244:9 248:11 249:18 254:17 256:21 258:10,13 275:13 290:22 314:12 316:19,21 317:14,15,20 326:7 329:22 330:2 332:18 talks 190:17 191:19 tall 182:16 tap 188:10 target 108:15 targeted 62:14 task 81:3 tasks 81:4 TDA 181:1 182:3,11 187:20,22 193:2 194:12 208:11 tea 4:5 technical 5:7 technologies 2:18 274:10 technology 245:19 274:15,17 293:11 301:6,12 302:8 teeing 108:22 teeth 127:20 temperature 134:20 205:19 229:10,11 282:15 294:19 309:2 333:20 temperatures 285:5 ten 19:14 56:18 71:2 74:11,13,19,20,2 2 75:2 116:15 117:21 125:6,7 179:18 241:21 242:1,17 243:6,11 249:21,22 ten-minute 70:16 246:8 ten-ton 102:22 term 104:1 168:16 169:22 192:17 243:2,4,13,15 310:19 330:12 terminate 278:6 terms 7:5 18:12 66:5 67:1 88:10 90:20 117:4,8 181:21 182:1 236:4 259:11 311:5 316:19 terrible 215:22 test 11:9 13:4,10 14:8,18 15:9 16:7,8 17:2,13 24:14,21 26:3,19,20 27:4,8,9,12 29:21 30:13 31:1,6,20 32:5,11,17 36:22 37:20,21 38:4,6 39:6,13 40:3,19 41:14 42:9 43:3,6 44:7,11 45:1,22 46:6,17 47:8,11,16,19,20 50:15 51:19 52:2 54:17 58:22 59:10,17,21 60:16 61:18 63:8,14 64:9,13 68:7,10,16 74:22 75:1,6 79:8 81:11 83:6,21,22 84:19,20,21 89:11,21 95:10 96:12,19,20

97:2,3 104:10 109:13,14 110:6,16,20 111:15 112:3 114:4,5 116:12 118:9 119:18,21 120:21 122:22 125:12,17 127:13 129:19 132:15,19 134:19 135:8 137:10,12 139:7,9 143:18 145:6,17 146:1,14 150:22 151:2 152:11,13 153:6 158:3,19 180:3 195:13 197:14,16 198:1,2,11,12,17 ,21 199:13,14,17 202:4,11,15,19 204:4 205:11,17 206:1,3,7,22 207:1 208:7 223:7 225:1 235:9 239:12,13 240:3,4 249:6 250:18 252:6 254:19 256:14 261:22 262:1 263:13 264:17,18 267:10,15 268:1,15 270:1,3,6,12,18, 21 271:1,3,6,7,12,1 3,21 272:1,7,10,15,16 273:12 281:4,17,19,21,2 2 282:16 283:18 284:17

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 55

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 285:7,15,22 286:7 287:1 288:18 289:9,17,19,20 290:4,16 291:1 299:16,20 300:1,4 303:10,17,19 304:8,9 305:9 306:8,12 307:5,6 308:22 309:1 312:15,16,19 313:3 314:20 315:1,3 318:6,8 319:16 321:2 324:9,17 325:1,4 330:14 331:2,3,18,19,20 332:6,7,9,16 334:19 335:12 tested 13:8,19 17:10 20:4,19,20,22 21:2,20 26:1 28:3 31:16 32:18 35:22 36:2 38:5 42:2 47:2 50:7 54:11,19,22 55:1,6,16,20 62:5 63:9 76:11 82:19 84:10,17 98:12 103:2,3,9,17 106:22 109:12 116:2,9 117:9 121:9 125:16 132:8 148:16 149:1 151:6,8 158:14 183:16 206:6 207:5 223:1 291:12 tester 286:4,10 testing 8:22 14:16 15:19 22:19 26:3,4 27:7,11 28:22 30:6 32:4,7,10 39:4 42:12,17 43:17 44:6 51:19 53:12 54:14 59:13 61:1,3 81:13,14,19 82:22 94:5,7,15 95:4,5,12,20 96:12,14,15 97:7,21 98:6 104:8 106:17 109:5,11 110:12 118:17,19,21,22 119:3,13,16 121:14,15 122:6 123:20 125:7 128:5 129:14 131:9 138:4 139:1 145:15 150:12 151:17 157:18,19 160:21 161:1,4,12,14 174:18,20 175:15 176:21 177:5,7 180:3 183:6 184:5,7 200:5,9,15,17,18 204:1 205:7 206:11 207:7 212:5 218:8 224:22 253:4 tests 15:14 18:4,6,8,18 19:19 21:17 22:9 32:15 34:11 35:11,16 50:18 60:10,11 79:10 80:3 81:22 82:10 95:3 103:10 111:8,19 116:14 118:12 119:4 132:11 134:22 142:4 143:3,15 147:10,14 149:4,19 150:10 155:13,20,22 158:2 160:12,13 161:7 183:18 206:20,22 207:2 262:5 301:11 test-year 38:1 thank 4:16 24:1 68:12 76:2 131:7 161:8,15 163:20 178:20 188:17 206:17 311:13 329:19 thankfully 282:18 Tharp 6:16 that's 4:11 8:18 10:13 16:1 20:11 23:11,20 24:1 26:6,13 27:5 28:2,20 29:9,20 31:10 32:4 36:3 40:4 42:4 43:8 44:19 46:13 51:2 52:18 54:2,20 55:2 56:21 58:9 61:11 64:4,16 69:10 72:11,14,17 75:3,9,10,12,18 77:17 78:16 79:4 80:12 81:21 83:18 84:8,16,22 87:8 88:11 93:8,17 94:12 95:1 96:16 97:11 99:3 100:19 102:16 104:1 106:2,3,21 109:18 110:15 111:10 113:15 114:3

116:15,17,18 117:2 120:22 121:1,2,4,19,22 122:13,14 123:5,7 124:3,6,10,17 127:16,22 129:4,7 132:6,15,17 133:4 134:8 135:5 136:1,14,19 137:14,18,20 147:16 149:8 150:3 152:21 153:2,18 155:22 162:18 165:12 167:10,12 178:6,12 180:9,10,17 182:2,5,7 183:9,13 184:22 185:7 189:7 195:9 196:5 197:13 202:7,16,17 209:18 211:1 212:1,4,5,13 213:9 214:2,15 220:19 222:8,19 224:19 225:16 226:19 227:8 229:1,13,17 234:5 235:5,18,19 236:6,21 237:11 239:3 240:2,18,21 242:6,14,15 243:16 244:2 252:21 253:11 254:17,19 255:8,14 256:18,19,21

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 56

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 258:11,13 259:7 263:17 270:5,14 271:20 272:8,9,16 277:6,11 278:8 279:18 281:10 282:4 283:3 284:18 285:18 286:11 288:16,18,22 289:14,15,18 291:16,20 295:22 297:7 298:4,9 300:14 301:13,18 302:3 304:4,17,20,21,2 2 305:4 308:1,15 311:4 314:3,5 315:13 317:22 320:15 321:14 323:7 329:10,19 330:20 332:2,5 333:12,15 334:3,15 335:14,20 themselves 128:9 216:1 thereafter 337:5 there'd 239:7 therefore 70:22 79:22 83:9 125:1 215:20 256:8 259:20 there's 35:14 39:7,10 59:9 61:15 63:9 68:14 73:3,11 74:6 77:6 85:17 86:8 88:1,2,4,21 89:22 96:14 98:2,5,17 99:16 104:16 110:8,12 119:8 123:18 126:8,13,14 127:22 130:1,4,17 131:1 135:18 136:15,16,17 138:11,17,18 139:3 172:2 196:21 207:19 209:14 217:15 219:6 224:17 232:14 249:8 252:16,17,19,20 253:12,15 257:11,16 261:8 262:6 267:15 268:10,12,14 269:16 270:1,4 271:16 284:16 286:13 291:14 292:2,8 293:12,14 295:9 296:4 298:17 306:8,14 309:8,15 315:20 317:1 318:6 320:5 321:4 327:5 328:9 331:21 333:21 thermal 250:21 257:20 292:17 296:14 300:11 310:20 311:10,12 313:18 thermodynamic 146:21 thermodynamics 76:1,2,13,17 77:19 they'd 125:8 270:20 282:1 they'll 120:14 256:3 327:16 333:10

they're 13:16 61:2 65:18 85:10 89:2,3 98:1 102:2 114:21 127:12 137:1 231:15 243:20 244:16,19 252:13,14 256:14 263:1 269:12,13 272:4 275:8 286:21 299:20 302:1 309:6,10 323:21 329:8 333:18,19 they've 60:6 130:10 252:14 272:2 thickness 313:16 315:21 thin 232:13 313:15 314:1 316:3 third 32:11 39:6,11 59:16 67:6 89:4 120:19 135:21 143:16 144:4 148:16,17,21 149:1,7,9,16,19 150:9 151:3,6,8,16 152:1 153:8,10 159:16,19 170:2 329:8 third-party 87:6 thirsty 334:4 Thomas 1:17 337:2,14 thoughts 22:12 37:15 145:11 155:9 171:9 251:18 306:1 324:10

thousand 16:8 116:5,16 121:21 122:11,13,20 125:3,11,14,19 126:11,15 127:13,14 128:3 129:5 thousands 19:10,16 50:18 55:8 59:10 117:16 128:2,6 three-year 15:19 17:3,13 18:1 28:4 39:4 56:11,14 threshold 141:14 threw 258:18 throughout 85:13 115:4 throw 92:13 95:10 133:2 281:14,15 throwing 229:15 thrown 46:17 127:18 ticking 43:1 tie 79:16 tied 34:19 95:16,18 tight 323:6 Tim 25:21 60:14 133:19 158:6 timeline 36:9 46:18 58:15 59:12 62:17 110:3 timelines 48:5 59:15 111:1

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 57

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Timothy 2:8 tinker 156:10 tinkered 156:8 today 22:18 24:12 49:2 51:10 53:4 58:14,15 78:20 223:12 224:5 245:19 247:4 291:3 303:7,9 306:8 328:10 329:11 today's 293:3,11 Toilet 264:19 tolerance 17:4,20 250:2 tolerances 17:5 Tom 2:20 163:16 165:4 229:4 tomorrow 7:14 50:1 52:11,17,18 54:7 216:5 259:8 335:19 ton 35:14 146:9 242:1,17 243:3,6 toner 326:17 tonight 52:10 54:6 207:16 tonner 326:19 tons 243:11 330:2 tool 6:18 tooling 177:19 tools 278:14 top 218:22 250:12 294:2 295:20 topics 264:12 Tornados 322:2 total 181:1,3,22 186:15 189:18 190:2 193:6 199:10 211:4,11 262:21 totally 183:2 279:16 tough 77:22 78:1 261:5 toward 152:3 236:15 towards 12:12,13 tower 275:8 TP 264:16 track 38:22 tradeoff 90:14 trade-off 65:4 traditionally 240:18 Trane 2:17 29:11 30:20 172:13 222:1 245:12 262:20 271:20 274:14 Trane's 107:19 transcribed 126:12 transcript 337:6 338:4,6 339:4,6 340:4,6 341:4,6 transcription 338:1,7 339:1,7 340:1,7 341:1,7 Transcriptionist 338:14 339:13 340:12 341:15 transfer 3:13 175:13 176:8 292:11 293:7 313:19 325:7,10

transferred 300:8 308:10 311:1 transferring 175:18 293:21 transfers 293:18 transfer's 293:16 294:7 295:15 transformer 170:8 266:11 267:3 transportation 151:10 152:12 Traulsen 2:12 traumatic 89:21 90:4,5,6 treat 95:3 112:17 treated 94:18 treating 307:4 treatment 108:4,21 153:15 300:7 treats 306:15 tree 48:19 tremendous 150:11 triage 5:5 tricky 38:7 tried 259:5 274:8 trigger 20:16 26:3 30:11 58:14,16 60:9,11 129:3 triggers 272:11 trinkets 48:6 trip 31:17 triple 60:12 140:2 TRITSIS 59:3 tropical 282:15

trouble 48:2 67:3 89:12 193:17 troubled 66:21 troubling 67:1 165:20 277:21 true 2:16 46:13 81:21 137:14 183:13 203:22 207:20 213:17 337:6 338:7 339:7 340:7 341:7 truly 61:3 158:17 trust 22:3 128:4 truthfulness 35:2 try 13:20 14:1,3 52:7,11 101:1 106:15 136:21 137:5 140:12 153:6 208:1,3 218:2,9 277:10 283:18 trying 40:3 44:3,4 60:1 79:21 83:6 85:1 87:1 89:19 90:14 102:12 103:19 120:17 123:8,10 127:9 128:8 139:20 151:12 155:2 158:10 173:6 188:13 193:3,15 214:14 244:20 247:15 286:21 288:20 314:9 320:17 333:19 tube 248:5 tubes 248:3 249:1 313:16,22 320:6

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 58

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Tucker 3:14 5:5 263:10 309:20 310:15 311:1,13 Tulsa 128:14 turbo 235:11 turn 133:21 286:19 turned 138:20 turns 82:5 tweak 28:13 35:7 74:14,15 75:5 tweaked 74:17 tweaking 32:19 83:8 101:8 tweaks 72:6 75:8 twelve 179:18 326:18 Twenty-four 37:4 twice 47:2 207:7 two-door 214:9 two-foot 185:19 two-month 44:19 two-tenths 301:14 two-year 79:11two-year/threeyear 56:21 TXV 24:22 220:21 type 14:2 36:15 102:9 144:16 200:7 213:21 215:2 222:16 227:16 228:1,3 295:16 typed 338:4 339:4 340:4 341:4 types 33:14 171:5 212:20 typewriting 337:5

typical 315:21 typically 9:6 13:20 266:7,13 267:8 283:16 298:21 313:15,18 typist 102:1 U U.S 2:10,11 3:2,7,14 UA 230:9 236:13 237:6,8,9,13 238:8 UAs 238:10 uh-huh 89:17 121:2 157:10 164:3 182:12 238:20 300:16,20 318:17 325:16 326:20 332:17 UL 39:2 ultimate 130:10 131:11 umbrella 138:14 unanimous 163:13 166:17 167:2 uncoated 315:6 uncomfortable 47:9 49:15 64:20 undefined 312:18 underneath 233:10 underpinning 98:20 underrating 209:1 understand 11:1 24:19,20 34:3 49:4 66:12 80:12 118:6 120:18 122:19 131:13 142:1 146:22 147:7 155:12 159:13 193:18 194:6,13 201:16,18 202:6,9 214:15 245:18 247:22 255:7 323:3 understanding 45:8 57:16 93:22 102:20 103:7 124:22 132:1 166:22 167:3 169:2 170:9 180:11 187:1 195:7 218:3,7 understood 42:22 82:17 206:16 207:4 Underwriters 2:22 Unfortunately 205:14 unique 99:19 105:7,8 107:16 206:11 unit 24:21 34:16 39:5,14 40:8,11,17,19 41:6,10,11,14 42:2,14 43:16,19 61:18 62:4,12,21 63:5,7 64:6,7 109:13 120:20 128:15 132:4,7 135:8,13 136:3 137:10,12 138:15 182:1 185:11,12,21 196:3 206:20 207:2,7 211:5,12

212:1,6,7,22 215:16 255:13 256:13 258:14 266:22 268:1 270:5,8 277:20 283:18 284:6 289:9 311:11 320:13,17 321:19 327:7,9 328:2 329:5,10,15 330:3 333:14 334:10,17 unitary 304:11 United 120:12 units 9:6 13:4,10,16,19 16:8 17:1 18:11 25:1 59:10,21 60:5 65:13 96:21,22 104:10 109:12 112:11,13 113:8,11 117:9 126:3 127:12,13 128:19 150:22 151:2 160:13,22 180:16 193:5 207:6 281:5,6,7,18 287:16 288:1 313:9 320:3,16 322:20 328:5 330:4 333:10,11 unit's 319:18 universally 172:3 universe 204:1,13,15 207:5 universities 293:13

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 59

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 university 293:14 unknown 45:10 unknowns 36:20 99:10 unless 14:17 36:14 116:6 145:4 149:6 152:15 206:11 309:14 unlimited 118:17 unnecessary 150:4 unoccupied 309:22 unrelated 24:15 85:22 unusual 38:18 updates 175:11 updating 51:13 uploaded 69:21 70:9 upon 55:13 71:7 116:20,22 117:14 upped 149:20 upper 309:3 UPS 153:16 upwards 282:2 useful 53:18 247:12 usually 13:22 147:12 269:14 326:9 331:21 332:2 utility 69:7 260:5 266:13 269:20 310:2 V vacation 135:21

vague 70:20 valid 32:16 33:2 71:20,22 83:2 109:9 118:4 120:1 125:15 132:6,15 validate 27:11 80:3 106:17 107:11 119:14 validation 13:4 76:7 95:21 97:7 106:19 109:14,15 144:14,15 145:2,5 146:8 147:13,14,20 150:11,13 158:13,15,16,18, 20,21 159:1 183:18,19,22 validations 69:20 70:13 valuable 259:12 value 80:22 129:2 215:2 230:9 295:9 vapor 308:11 variability 42:1 88:10 110:13 254:7 variable 14:12 232:21 274:5 variation 85:10 112:6 296:1 variations 117:19 128:7 232:20 varies 318:21 variety 13:21 86:12 105:2 various 67:10 103:1 123:3 133:5 171:5 292:14 vary 250:18 varying 88:7 vast 84:19 VEACH 341:2,14 vendor 78:14 vendors 86:11,13 89:9 ventilation 292:11,13,15 300:8 305:3 ventilator 293:18,20 294:14,22 295:17 venture 21:19 99:11 verification 82:12 149:20 150:10 151:19 174:20 175:19 205:4 verified 148:14,15,17 151:2 154:5,10,22 verify 151:17,18 152:4 153:10 verifying 30:5 150:8 151:5 version 31:4,5,9,12,18 33:9,10 74:4,5 164:16,17 versions 298:5 323:8 versus 8:22 9:6 195:2,11 220:21 222:2 237:1 245:15 267:22 298:14 vertical 185:2,3 191:7 196:14 viable 35:3 VICP 54:13 65:12 66:3,19 71:9 81:15 82:1,2 93:2 94:16,17 95:5,7,9,13,19 96:12,14,15 98:6 99:7,17 102:10,13 108:4 109:1,5 226:8 VICPs 68:7 94:14 95:14 99:20 109:21 view 181:5 205:19 viewing 252:11 viewpoint 214:10 views 168:11 Virginia 1:9 virtually 138:15 visualization 29:18 visualize 48:6 328:1 voltage 265:17,21 268:8 volume 59:14 95:12 180:17 182:13 185:12 186:15 187:20,22 188:1 189:18,22 190:3 194:12 196:2,4,9 198:7 211:5

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 60

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 212:1,6,22 213:2,14,22 251:17 252:10,11,15,22 253:10,13,16,18, 19 254:18,22 262:16,21 284:7 302:17 311:8,14 312:5 313:11 318:14 322:11,14 335:9 volumes 211:6,7 213:15 236:16 voluntary 50:22 54:10 67:3,11,17 volunteer 71:5 vote 49:14 139:13 163:2,6,10 166:6,12 167:19 voted 163:17 164:9 voting 49:15 148:6 166:15 221:16 vulnerable 50:6 64:21 W wait 21:9 26:4,22 38:20 45:3 114:12 139:14 141:16 152:14 156:3 160:15 236:9 waive 158:8 159:15 waiver 330:13,19 331:18,20,21,22 332:11,13 waivers 330:16 331:1,3 Wal 333:21

walk 135:10 164:8 245:6 247:11 wall 93:17 Wal-Mart 334:2 warehouse 85:14 warm 172:5 warranty 320:13 washer 213:12 wasn't 38:21 39:8 42:11 164:13 176:15 177:15 221:5 327:21 waste 103:11 308:12,13 wasted 40:1 water 55:10 113:2 166:7 186:22 187:1 188:10 275:6,7,13 296:8 309:13,20,21 watt 112:6 watts 268:3 281:14 wave 268:7 ways 17:16 110:8 132:9 133:10 196:20 197:8 259:11 274:21 287:5 294:3 wear 251:7 weather 279:6 weatherized 260:7 WEBER 188:19 we'd 233:15 272:12 296:3 303:6 weeding 87:22 weeds 52:4 week 8:14 33:15 87:8 weeks 91:11 156:1 we'll 24:12 85:12 88:12 91:20 109:21 132:3 134:8 138:6,9 216:4 243:2 244:6,13 247:20 313:7 324:5,15 WENDY 339:2,12 Wendy's 4:11 we're 7:4 14:8,19 17:3 23:12 25:5 26:19 27:7 28:1 29:22 30:4 31:17,18 32:15 33:10,13,15 35:19 45:4 46:3 50:17 51:15,21 52:5,22 55:21 56:20 63:10 67:13 69:1 73:15,16 74:11 75:3 84:20 85:1 86:12 88:16 89:11 90:20 91:11 95:21 96:21 99:5,15 100:1 104:4 106:14,15 108:3,7,20,22 110:21 111:13,14 112:2 117:5,18 118:5 119:17 120:3 122:6 123:7,12 126:22 127:9 128:3,7 129:21 130:2 131:14 137:8,9,20 140:6,7 147:22 156:17 167:9

170:22 211:16 216:10,11,15 217:12 218:17 222:3 226:9 233:4 236:7 237:18 239:15,20 240:2,6,8 243:11,12 244:8,9 245:3 248:10 249:18 250:8 252:15 256:18 257:8 261:2 264:12 273:13 274:19 279:21 283:16,17,22 284:1 289:8 290:8 296:18 297:16 307:13 312:2 314:9 315:22 316:20 317:19 318:14 328:13,20 329:22 330:2 332:18 west 292:3 western 292:3 we've 7:5 17:10 24:9 58:11 61:10 63:6 84:16 85:4 90:22 91:3,10 106:5 114:5 118:8 131:9,21,22 132:1 133:14 151:10 152:3 219:6 238:10 247:5 259:7 261:17 273:16 305:6 319:20 320:3 326:2

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 61

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 329:13 330:4 whatever 11:10 15:2 17:22 31:1,5 36:19 43:4 56:15 58:1 63:15 74:21 78:3 79:6 82:7 83:1 99:15 105:21 107:11,12 113:5 115:12 127:10,11,12,16 129:2 132:2,4,5,9,17 133:5 134:12 136:11 138:19 139:5 143:1 154:15 177:4,7 186:14 187:21 197:12 209:2 210:20 213:4 235:21 246:21 320:8,9 whatsoever 266:12 wheel 298:3,22 329:1 wheels 326:6,9 whenever 4:22 41:3 105:13 208:1 whereas 103:6 244:18 Whereupon 71:3 140:20 246:10 336:1 whether 6:3,5 7:3 11:2 12:9 13:17 14:19 23:6 37:11 54:17 55:6,17 58:11 78:2 83:11 93:21 114:4 117:5 118:3 120:10 136:10 138:19 139:6 152:4 154:2 155:4 157:18 162:22 178:13 181:14 194:22 196:15 219:21 230:20 232:12 246:15 253:4 266:22 270:2 331:7,8 whichever 190:4 whistles 76:20 77:18,21 123:21 white 204:6,8 314:8 Whitwell 3:15 12:20 16:4,10,13,17 18:10 20:11,14 23:10,15,21 24:6,15 25:3,11,15,18 37:8 39:20 40:2,4,10,14,16 44:14 58:18 60:2 140:2,5,9 141:10,19 142:19 143:14,17 144:1,5,8,11 146:2,7,14,20 147:14,19 148:3,8 150:13,19 151:6 161:4 175:2,5,9,20 176:2 184:1 186:21 187:7,12,16 219:20 220:5,19 221:8 222:15,19 223:9,15,19 224:16 226:4 227:18 228:3 229:13,17 230:3,13,18 231:3,5,11,13,16 ,20 232:4,8,11,22 233:17 237:6,11,17 238:3,6,12,20 239:2,6,11,14,18 240:10,12,15,21 242:20 244:8,20 248:9,13,19 249:3,9,17 250:17 251:19 252:5 255:10,15 257:7,9,13,19 258:5,15 260:8,15 263:6,9,16 264:17 266:2 270:11 271:16 275:5,15,17,20 276:18,21 279:9,14 280:5 282:6,10 285:6,10,16,18 286:3 287:3,7,20 288:3,6 291:13,20 293:6,17 294:4,13,17 296:22 297:4 299:9,12,18 300:3,11 302:3 306:7,12 307:3,21 308:18,21 309:7 314:3,8,16,18 315:2,8,11,14 318:17,20 319:3,5,9,12,14, 20 320:3,20 322:3,14 323:3 324:1,18,22 325:16

whoever 204:9 whole 49:20 52:6 59:21 60:21 64:5 71:21 73:12,18,21 77:12 94:7,8 115:17 118:22 121:1 146:10,16 162:16 166:13 183:12,14 184:4,5 200:6 202:17 206:21 207:5 211:9 228:12 268:6,7,8 288:21 306:14,21 309:17 313:10 whom 337:3 Whoops 114:12 Who's 71:4 whose 88:7 313:21 321:9 wide 68:6 86:12 215:14 wife 89:14 Wild 106:11 willing 66:18 151:18 201:12 214:2,11 Wilson 1:7 window 58:8 59:7 62:1,3 windows 56:22 winter 292:10 wireless 4:13 withdraw 149:18 witness 42:12

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 Page 62

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 43:3,6 61:13 witnessed 58:1 wonder 300:21 wonderful 50:3 wondering 13:3 62:7 155:4 178:12 221:18 270:16 278:19 worded 124:20 wording 54:3 72:4 139:21 153:14 171:10 207:21 216:8,17 225:8 243:1 279:18 294:5 wordsmith 152:6 158:10 work 18:17 25:22 35:12 45:13 52:11,13 53:13 65:2 95:9,14 110:11,19,22 123:12 128:20 132:9 133:10,22 134:5,8,10 152:13 175:17 188:8 199:12 206:4 247:16 248:15 276:14 288:21 295:20 299:2 workable 83:7 296:20 worked 17:12 62:20 113:3 working 6:16 7:10 8:19 33:14 58:8 100:2,5 103:20 111:13 123:22 144:7 173:16 277:11 307:13,14

workload 44:22 works 57:16 81:20 96:1 186:4 206:4 213:18 289:1 world 143:21 worms 210:16 211:14 worn 316:3 worried 125:18 193:22 194:1 worse 88:9 worst 133:6 197:15 worst-case 85:2 worth 22:5 111:5 wrap 140:12 213:10 write 204:8 218:16 313:3 writes 204:9 writing 66:8,15 73:8 81:18 159:22 289:7 written 6:21 43:9 154:17 180:19 194:7 208:9,18 236:5 275:16 wrong 36:6,7 37:14 77:12 87:10 113:4 126:12 135:2 146:19 158:8 221:6 243:20 287:22 wrongly 67:20 wrote 101:18 221:19 266:5 281:1 325:17 X Xerox 326:17 Xs 91:20 X's 85:16 178:6,12 XX 277:5 289:1 Y y'all 87:3 yell 246:12 Yep 218:15 248:18 320:20 333:9 yet 52:22 98:18 104:18 119:12 235:14 307:16 Y-intercept 191:12 you'll 85:6 102:14 107:8 198:13 204:19 288:17 YOUNG 340:2,11 yours 21:20 125:8 273:22 292:9 321:17 yourself 4:4 151:14 223:3 yourselves 165:1 you've 9:1 50:18 84:12 95:6 105:11 109:16 113:16 114:11 131:8 133:4 137:14 139:15 143:22 155:13 156:12 215:19 225:11 254:6 256:8 292:9 299:19 311:20 325:13

Y's 85:16 87:7 Z zero 65:14 83:9 84:14 254:11 274:7 277:12,21 301:10 zones 284:16 303:2 zoom 140:1