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 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

 Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute

 2111 Wilson Blvd

 Suite 500

 Arlington, Virginia

 Monday, June 10, 2013

 10:00 a.m.

Reported by: Natasha Thomas,

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 FACILITATOR

3 Neil Eisner, Navigant Consulting

4

5 PARTICIPANTS

6 Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating and

7 Refrigeration Institute

8 Timothy Ballo, EarthJustice

9 Jeff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning

10 Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy

11 John Cymbalsky, U.S. Department of Energy

12 Mary Dane, Traulsen

13 Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc.

14 Mark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products

15 Geoffrey Halley, SJI Consultants, Inc.

16 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing

17 Jill Hootman, Trane

18 John Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc.

19 Diane Jakobs, Rheem Manufacturing Co.

20 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay

21 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar

22 Michael Kojak, Underwriters Laboratories LLC
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 Aris Marantan, U.S. Department of Energy

3 Peter Molvie, Cleaver-Brooks Product Development

4 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co.

5 Frank Myers, Pvi Industries, Inc.

6 Massoud Neshan, Southern Store Fixtures, Inc.

7 Michael Rivest, U.S. Department of Energy

8 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient

9 Economy

10 Ronald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation

11 Frank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and

12 Refrigeration Institute

13 Phillip Stephens, Heat Transfer Products

14 Corey Tucker, U.S. Department of Energy

15 Robert Whitwell, Carrier Corporation

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. EISNER: There are some housekeeping

3 matters. We have coffee behind here. So please help

4 yourself. There is a machine that you can use for your

5 coffee and tea.

6 The restrooms. They are outside. There is a

7 code to the restrooms. It's going to be 1110.

8 And for lunch, there are several

9 possibilities. There is the Corner Bakery just in this

10 building. You have Cosi just across the street and

11 Wendy's and other things around here. So that's about

12 it.

13 Internet, yes. We have wireless internet.

14 If you want to access the internet, we have the

15 instructions on this sheet.

16 MS. BARHYDT: I want to thank AHRI for

17 hosting this meeting.

18 Just a couple of things. To make sure that

19 everything is on the record, we ask that everyone speak

20 up. The name cards are coming. And for those of you

21 on the back rows, you can either speak extra loud or

22 stand up whenever you are speaking just to make sure
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1 that we get everything on record.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Most of you saw the email.

3 Ashley had her baby. So in her place, even though we

4 know we can't replace her fully, we are going to have

5 like a sort of a triage over here with Corey Tucker,

6 Mike Rivest, and Aris, who will help us out on the

7 technical stuff. So think of them as kind of like our

8 --

9 (Crosstalk.)

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would offer up my services.

11 MR. EISNER: If anybody can't remember their

12 name without their name card, raise their hand.

13 Everybody's okay?

14 All right. We have a few process questions.

15 One, Department of Energy got a request between

16 meetings for people who were not members of the

17 Committee to be put on the internal mailing list that

18 goes out with copies of documents and things like that

19 between meetings but also like to be allowed to submit

20 comments between meetings. Our ground rules don't

21 address that. Our ground rules do say -- and they are

22 more liberal than I have seen in the past. My
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1 exposure, the ground rules say that they can speak at

2 any time. And they have. And I think everything has

3 gone smoothly. But it's up to you to decide whether

4 you want to allow them to have access to documents

5 between meetings and whether you want to allow them to

6 have the right to comment between the meetings.

7 Does anybody have any comments, any

8 questions?

9 MR. AMRANE: I think they should be allowed

10 to comment.

11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Are there any objections

12 to allowing them to do both of those things?

13 (No audible response.)

14 MR. EISNER: Okay. So allowed.

15 We also got during the interim in the

16 meetings a working schedule draft from Rusty Tharp that

17 has been modified a little bit by DOE and recirculated.

18 And, again, it's more for an informational tool, but

19 does anybody have suggestions on changes to the

20 calendar, how we follow it? I think DOE is okay with

21 it as it was written. Does anybody have suggestions,

22 things they would like to do in different order?
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1 I think having the calendar in front of us is

2 a good idea because, if nothing else, it tells us

3 whether we are moving along at a reasonable rate or

4 falling too far behind or even if we're getting ahead,

5 how much time we've got in terms of what is going on.

6 Does anybody have any adjustments they want

7 to make to the calendar?

8 (No audible response.)

9 MR. EISNER: All right. Well, we will use

10 that as our working calendar for now.

11 The last thing I would note is this is our

12 last meeting before we have to make an interim report

13 to the full ASRAC. That is due June 26. So we should

14 leave sometime tomorrow to talk about that. If I

15 forget, hopefully somebody will remind me because we

16 all have some agreement on what we want to report.

17 It's not just up to me or to DOE to decide what to

18 report to the Committee.

19 Any questions?

20 MR. DOPPEL: On that, Ashley at the last

21 meeting wanted to make sure we got a certain amount

22 through that she was going to submit to ASRAC.
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1 MR. EISNER: Yes.

2 MR. DOPPEL: So has that already gone or --

3 MR. EISNER: No. That I think we want to

4 talk about first thing this morning.

5 MR. DOPPEL: Okay.

6 MR. EISNER: You are talking about the scope

7 issues. That is what she wants to get through, is a

8 final report to them on the scope issues. In fact,

9 when they directed us on what to do, they did not

10 suggest that we look at the scope issues. That is

11 something more than what we were supposed to do. DOE

12 would like to move ahead with the rulemaking. So we

13 would like to get that report or they would like to get

14 that report out from this Committee this week.

15 Any other questions? And if not, we can

16 start with the scope.

17 MR. STANONIK: Is anybody on the phone?

18 MR. EISNER: Oh, that's a good point. Phone

19 people? Everything is working smoothly? Okay. Any

20 questions, comments?

21 MR. HALLEY: I have a question concerning the

22 testing of gas-fired boilers versus oil-fired boilers.
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1 And the difference, if you've got a certain boiler

2 which is fired on gas and then you switch it to oil,

3 then there is an offset, if you like, between

4 efficiencies. It is a thing that appears to have been

5 used by DOE in setting the efficiency standards for

6 gas-fired versus oil-fired units. And it's typically

7 in the two to three percent range difference. If you

8 fire a gas-fired boiler, then the same oil-fired, same

9 boiler oil-fired, it is going to be two to three

10 percent higher in efficiency. And it's because of the

11 fuel, basically the carbon/hydrogen ratio of the fuel.

12 And so it's always going to be that. So is it

13 permissible if you fire a gas-fired boiler to say the

14 efficiency of the oil-fired boiler is going to be two

15 and a half, three percent higher?

16 MR. EISNER: Is that an issue under scope? I

17 don't think it --

18 MR. HALLEY: No.

19 MR. EISNER: Okay. It isn't?

20 MR. HALLEY: I know we talked about

21 efficiency.

22 MR. EISNER: We -- yes. We --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Well, so --

2 MR. EISNER: Is there a short answer?

3 MS. BARHYDT: This is a commercial package

4 boiler?

5 MR. HALLEY: Yes.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So the basic model definition

7 that people put forward last time was that it has the

8 same primary energy source?

9 MR. HALLEY: Well, so the energy source is

10 gas in one case and oil in the other. So is it two

11 different basic models?

12 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

13 MR. HALLEY: Yes. Okay. That's what I

14 thought, but it is this sort of two and a half, three

15 percent offset that always happens between a gas-fired

16 and an oil-fired.

17 MS. BARHYDT: So they would be rated

18 differently.

19 MR. HALLEY: They would be rated differently.

20 And they are in the requirement, you know, the --

21 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

22 MR. HALLEY: -- efficiency requirements.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: So I am not sure I understand.

2 MR. AMRANE: I think he's asking whether --

3 MR. HALLEY: Right.

4 MR. AMRANE: You have to evaluate both basic

5 models because you know the answer to the oil-fired

6 because the gas-fired --

7 MR. STANONIK: Yes. So far you have crafted

8 the AEDM, but if the manufacturer had the data that

9 supported that when I test my designs on gas or oil or

10 whatever and I have a clearly established relationship

11 that it's X percent difference, the AEDM actually is

12 flexible enough to encompass that.

13 MR. HALLEY: Right. I just wanted to know if

14 it was permissible to do that.

15 MS. BARHYDT: So you can make the AEDM span

16 product classes.

17 MR. HALLEY: Right.

18 MS. BARHYDT: And I think that is what you

19 are asking about, but that is a different issue than

20 what is the basic model because it is not a one-to-one

21 relationship between a basic model and an AEDM --

22 MR. HALLEY: Okay.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: -- or it doesn't have to be.

2 There is no requirement for that.

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. The first issue we have

4 to address is the recommendation to ASRAC and the scope

5 issues. And, as I recall, there was one outstanding

6 issue. It was the invalid rating repercussions. And

7 there is a separate slide on that. We wanted to talk

8 about that slide at the beginning of this meeting so we

9 could resolve whether or not we can finalize that

10 package. Any comments, questions, issues?

11 MALE SPEAKER: Is there any way, Mr.

12 Chairman, for you to move down towards the end so you

13 could talk towards us? Because when you talk, it goes

14 in that corner over there.

15 MR. EISNER: Okay. Can you move those?

16 MALE SPEAKER: It's lost, at least for me.

17 MR. EISNER: All right. So let's start with

18 the chart. I'll get my chair higher if I can. Any

19 questions, issues?

20 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from

21 Carrier. I guess I have a couple of questions. The

22 list on the left, you know, there are some specific
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1 numbers there. And my question I guess is maybe not

2 specifically related to the -- oh, it is related, too.

3 I'm wondering what DOE's plan is as far as number of

4 units that they would test for validation. And the

5 reason I'm asking that question is because, you know,

6 some manufacturers are going to have more basic models

7 than others. And if it's the same number that are

8 tested for every manufacturer that would be -- you

9 know, I don't know if that is the right way, if one has

10 more models than others. But if you test more units

11 from some manufacturers than others, then it wouldn't

12 seem correct to me that there would be a single set of

13 numbers there in the left-hand column.

14 So I guess it might be helpful for us, at

15 least for me, if DOE could talk a little bit about the

16 sample size that they're looking at or how many units

17 and whether it is a percentage of basic models

18 certified or what the criteria is for selecting the

19 units to be tested.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So typically, we try to select

21 models that range across a variety of manufacturers.

22 We don't usually just pick from one manufacturer. We
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1 try and select across a range of prototypes and within

2 a product type, the different equipment classes. We

3 try and pick from a range of equipment classes. We do

4 not do a certain percentage of basic models. Obviously

5 at this point, nobody is actually certified in basic

6 models. So that wouldn't have been a basis for us to

7 make a selection in the past anyway. But it's

8 difficult to say that we're going to test this

9 percentage or something like that because it's so

10 resource-specific. And year to year, we don't know

11 exactly what our funding is going to be. So it is

12 going to be variable.

13 I can tell you that, from my perspective,

14 looking at it and knowing that we choose a range of

15 products and we choose a range of manufacturers, it's

16 not like testing two. I mean, that is two that have

17 had invalid ratings. So already unless the ratings are

18 really bad, we have had to test more than 2 or, else,

19 we're hitting 100 percent. And whether a manufacturer

20 has a lot of basic models or one basic model, if we

21 have hit two within an AEDM that are invalid, then it

22 calls into question the AEDM the same way regardless,
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1 that if we have hit two that are not rated right for

2 that particular AEDM, whatever the manufacturer has

3 chosen to put within that AEDM, it is the same degree

4 of amount that is not rated right. So it doesn't make

5 sense to me conceptually to make it based on a

6 percentage. There have been two that were not rated

7 right.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. If

9 you have a test that is not good at the beginning of

10 the 3-year period, then you have 20 that are good, and

11 then at the end of the 3-year period, you have another

12 one that is bad, it just doesn't seem like that that 2

13 is a good number, then, because, you know, you are

14 talking 10 percent of all the tests.

15 MR. STANONIK: But this is per AEDM.

16 MR. DOPPEL: I know. And that is what I'm

17 saying. Per AEDM.

18 MR. STANONIK: Can you give an example

19 that in a three-year period, DOE would be testing 22

20 models of an AEDM?

21 MR. DOPPEL: We don't know.

22 MS. BARHYDT: One AEDM.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: That's one of the questions. We

2 don't know what the sample size is.

3 MS. BARHYDT: We don't know.

4 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, do you think it would

5 be similar to what we have seen in the past or what you

6 have seen in the past?

7 MR. STANONIK: What do we test overall? I

8 think overall we test by a couple of thousand units.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

10 MR. WHITWELL: We have 30-some programs.

11 MS. BARHYDT: For a single manufacturer.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

13 MR. WHITWELL: It depends on the program,

14 depends on the product, depends on the models that we

15 --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And so --

17 MR. WHITWELL: The numbers could be over 50

18 for a manufacturer and for one program over a 3-year

19 period.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So -- and I am not

22 asking anyone to answer this out loud, but think about
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1 how you do your modeling right now and how many units

2 AHRI would test based on that individual model in a

3 three-year period. And we're saying that two of those

4 were not rated right outside of tolerance because there

5 are tolerances built in here as well.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Let me just make sure you said

7 something there. Individual model?

8 MALE SPEAKER: It's AEDM.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: So the AEDM. Yes.

10 MS. BARHYDT: So we've tested individual

11 model within the AEDM. So how many individual models

12 within our conceptual framework that we have worked out

13 for an AEDM would AHRI test in a three-year period,

14 also keeping in mind that you as a manufacturer can

15 decide how big your AEDM is and how much is within that

16 AEDM. I mean, there are a lot of ways that you as a

17 manufacturer can control this process as well, not to

18 mention that -- I am somewhat speculating here, but if

19 DOE comes to you and says, "We had one that was outside

20 of tolerance," my guess is that you are going to look

21 at your own stuff. And if you are confident that that

22 was a fluke or whatever, then I guess I am still not
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1 really seeing a two over a three-year period. It's not

2 like you have no notice of the first one either.

3 MR. EISNER: Do you know about the number

4 being limited or concern that the number of tests can

5 go up but the number would still be two? In other

6 words, DOE could have more resources, do more tests,

7 but you would still have only two failures and it might

8 be over 50 tests, instead of what you have been doing

9 right now, which might be 20?

10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, I just don't

11 have any feel for what, you know, two units, two

12 failures, what that represents in terms of percentage?

13 Is it two? Is it two out of four? I mean, that to me

14 is not going to happen, right? But if it's 2 out of

15 100, that could happen.

16 MR. EISNER: Nor if DOE is concerned with

17 percentages is there a way to work in just a simple

18 number up to so many tests two, up to so many tests

19 three. If you are doing a certain amount now, it

20 sounds like what they are asking for is some assurance

21 that if the numbers go up, so will the number two.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Right. That is still kind of a
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1 percentage. It's a percent of -- it's two up until --

2 I see what you are saying.

3 MR. EISNER: It is a little --

4 MS. BARHYDT: Is there a number that would

5 make you more comfortable?

6 MS. MEYERS: I think it is hard to put a

7 number on it because -- this is Karen Meyers with

8 Rheem. Because of the numerous, especially on the HVAC

9 side, combinations that an AEDM could contain, which

10 could be thousands of combinations, you know, two, you

11 know, could be a very small percentage. You could have

12 an AEDM and only, you know, for a very specific

13 specialized product line, you may have a separate AEDM

14 that may cover ten different models. And two, then, is

15 a significant number. But if you have an AEDM that

16 contains thousands of possible combinations, two is a

17 very insignificant number.

18 MR. EISNER: Is it the number of

19 possibilities or the number of likely tests that is of

20 concern? It sounds to me like it's the latter.

21 MR. STANONIK: If you look at that first

22 column and imagine that you had -- this is something
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1 that I had sent to you and Ashley earlier on as far as

2 what we were doing in our program. Let's say you had

3 three headings and the heading -- this would be number

4 of models tested in the AEDM in three calendar years.

5 Okay? So let's say the first box -- make up numbers --

6 1 to 25, 26 to 50, and over 50. And then you could

7 assign under each one of those columns corresponding to

8 like -- you know, 1 to 25 might be 2, 4, 6, 8, so on.

9 And then I don't know what 26 to 50 would be. I mean,

10 that kind of gets to your point.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So that's similar to the

12 AHRI program --

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

14 MR. WHITWELL: -- where depending on the

15 number of basic models you have, there is a different

16 number of failures before you trigger the consequences.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Were you suggesting the number

18 of basic models that they have certified or the number

19 of models tested?

20 MR. STANONIK: No. Tested.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

22 MR. STANONIK: It would be tested because, I
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1 mean, to me, in my way of thinking, that seems to be

2 the indicator. And if DOE has tested so many and you

3 have, you know, let's say, two out of four failures,

4 two out of four failures in three years, to me the

5 antennas should start going off that something isn't

6 right. On the other hand --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Two out of 100 is.

8 MR. STANONIK: Two out of 100 is like, "Oh,

9 wait a minute," you know.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers from PVI. Is

12 there a number above and below that we could keep it in

13 two columns, as opposed to going to three or more? Is

14 it possible to get comfortable with the column that is

15 there now, 1 to 25? And you could have a second column

16 that is over 25, thinking realistically about the

17 number of tests that DOE could even potentially do.

18 MR. STANONIK: Keep in mind this is a model

19 within a single AEDM. And I would venture that if DOE

20 tested any one of yours, 25 of your models with a

21 single AEDM, I would start to think you were getting

22 picked on because there are lots of manufacturers, lots
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1 of products, and your budget isn't infinite.

2 MR. SACHS: Frank, you are not saying that

3 you would trust DOE, are you?

4 MR. STANONIK: I would say sometimes it's

5 worth being pragmatic and on a practical basis, things

6 get -- you know, what you imagine you can't have. Yes.

7 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI

8 again. As a starting point, perhaps we have the numbers

9 that are there now for 1 to 25 tests and then double

10 those numbers for 25 or greater, just as a discussion

11 starting point.

12 MR. EISNER: Thoughts on that? Does that

13 address the concerns?

14 MR. MYERS: Do you think you are getting that

15 this year or next year?

16 MS. MEYERS: Yes. This is Karen with Rheem.

17 I would recommend that 25 be 35. And it's how we do it

18 today in the industry. And that is on, you know, a lot

19 of HVAC testing. So I would prefer if that were 35.

20 MS. BARHYDT: This one?

21 MS. MEYERS: Yes.

22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs.
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1 MS. MEYERS: Under 35 and then 36 and above.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Change on the bottom?

3 MS. MEYERS: Yes.

4 MR. SACHS: Since this is strictly for

5 commercial equipment, where we don't have -- I'm just

6 asking whether we have so much diversity that --

7 MS. MEYERS: We probably have more diversity

8 on the commercial than we do on residential.

9 MR. SACHS: On the AEDMs, too.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it depends on what is

11 included in the basic models. If it includes -- that's

12 the next discussion that we're going to have, is what's

13 in the basic model.

14 MR. SACHS: Okay.

15 MR. WHITWELL: But I think our going-in point

16 going into these negotiations, we assumed that there

17 was a lot of stuff included in the basic model

18 definition, which causes the AEDM to be very, very

19 complicated.

20 MR. SACHS: That's your choice.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it depends on the basic

22 model definition that comes out of the next discussion.
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1 MR. SACHS: Okay. Thank you. That's

2 helpful.

3 MS. BARHYDT: So are you saying that you

4 would draw your lines for what is within AEDM in a

5 different way depending on the basic model definition?

6 MR. WHITWELL: No, no. What I was saying was

7 that the basic model definition is going to drive what

8 we have to include in the AEDM. Like, for example, if

9 economizers are included in the basic -- we've got to

10 factor the impact of economizer on EPR in the AEDM,

11 same with all of the other things that we discussed

12 last time and we'll discuss later today.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So your concern is that

14 we might test one within --

15 MR. WHITWELL: It's unrelated to these

16 columns. I was just responding to Harvey's question

17 about the complexity of the --

18 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But I think I'm hearing

19 a concern, and I don't really understand it. So I want

20 to make sure I understand. Your concern is that we

21 might test a unit with an economizer, without an

22 economizer, with a TXV, and with copper, four different
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1 units, and say that that was four different things, as

2 opposed to one or --

3 MR. WHITWELL: No.

4 MS. BARHYDT: No. Okay.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: No. If we're in the certified

6 range and those things are now part of the basic model,

7 we would have to have some kind of modeling in our AEDM

8 that is simulating that. And we don't right now.

9 MS. BARHYDT: But it would still be within

10 AEDM.

11 MR. WHITWELL: That would be one AEDM; right?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: It could be done. It could be

13 more.

14 MALE SPEAKER: It could be more.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, it would be an

16 AEDM for that particular --

17 MALE SPEAKER: Right.

18 MR. WHITWELL: -- that would include that

19 particular basic model, right. I mean, it's what's out

20 there.

21 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. I have just a

22 question about how this would work out in practice.
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1 Say you have tested 35 models. You pick two that

2 didn't match up. Now you have gone and continued

3 testing, test 35. When you hit four, do you trigger

4 the same different testing requirement or do you wait

5 until you get to eight at that point?

6 MS. BARHYDT: That's a good question.

7 MR. STANONIK: It seems like -- again, in

8 your example, two failures. Now you're to the

9 consequence; right? And so, again, nothing happens.

10 So you have to resolve the questions that come up

11 before they actually get to any -- yes. In essence,

12 you're resetting because either you're going to somehow

13 correct the AEDM if that's where the problem was or

14 satisfy DOE that the AEDM conceptually was okay, but

15 these models were produced badly, for lack of a better

16 word.

17 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure that the way I

18 envisioned this is a reset because the reality is that

19 we're not taking up every test lab in the country to

20 test one manufacturer's models from one AEDM all at the

21 same time.

22 MS. MEYERS: Wait. Would you say it one more
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1 time?

2 MS. BARHYDT: I'm saying that, as a practical

3 matter, there is no way that we have eight models

4 within the same AEDM in a test lab at one time. I

5 mean, that's not realistic.

6 MS. MEYERS: Okay.

7 MS. BARHYDT: So let's say we're testing over

8 three years and we test one and it is an invalid rating

9 and we test and we test two and it is an invalid rating

10 and we send out a letter saying, "You need to do some

11 more testing to validate your AEDM." And then six more

12 months go by. We test another one. And it also has an

13 invalid rating. And four more months go by. And it

14 also has an invalid rating. We are now at four. We

15 are not at two. So that was no reset after the first

16 two when we sent out that letter. Otherwise we would

17 never get past two.

18 MR. DOPPEL: Paul with Mitsubishi. I think

19 any manufacturer that would go beyond two without

20 resetting, I mean, you are just asking for a lot of

21 problems. So, I mean, it just seems like two would be

22 the maximum. And then you'd be forced to reset. You
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1 know, again, we're talking about commercial equipment.

2 And that's expensive equipment. And I just can't

3 imagine that many being tested in a short period of

4 time. The three-year period seems too long.

5 MS. BARHYDT: You all asked for the three6 year period.

7 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that was what was

8 proposed, but --

9 MS. BARHYDT: I think we started out with one

10 and --

11 MR. DOPPEL: Right.

12 MS. MEYERS: Well, you know, I think

13 manufacturers constantly tweak their AEDMs.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

15 MS. MEYERS: Constantly.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

17 MR. STANONIK: I think in your example -- so

18 let's say again you had two failures; right? And,

19 everything else aside, those two models either went

20 away or they got rerated; right? I mean, that's fixed;

21 right? And so when a manufacturer choice is either to

22 do additional testing to, in fact, confirm again that
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1 the original AEDM was still correct or essentially

2 correct or when people say, "Reset" to me, that means

3 they actually modified their AEDM, which would

4 effectively affect all models rated by the AEDM.

5 Right? In that last circumstance, in that last

6 circumstance, to me, you have reset because you, in

7 fact, have taken the entire basket of models covered by

8 the AEDM and changed their rating.

9 MR. STANONIK: And then that's a new AEDM.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: You might not. This is Jill

11 from Trane. But you might not, in fact, change those

12 ratings.

13 MR. STANONIK: Right.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not saying you haven't gone

15 back and done a reality check.

16 MR. STANONIK: Yes.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: So, I mean, this is the

18 visualization I --

19 MR. STANONIK: But if you haven't, let's say,

20 accepted to change the AEDM, that's where you get the

21 test three and four done because if they happen --

22 MS. BARHYDT: But we're not checking your
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1 AEDMs.

2 MR. STANONIK: Yes.

3 MS. BARHYDT: We are not delving into it. We

4 are not looking at the analysis. So we're not

5 verifying that you did anything other than that you did

6 additional testing within the first two.

7 MR. STANONIK: What I meant to say, in that

8 case, if there is additional failure, they add to the

9 two. And so that is where you get to the next step in

10 the consequences. So, you know, if you have got to

11 that trigger of two and in Jill's case, okay, they

12 figured something out but they really didn't change the

13 AEDM and DOE happens to test some more of those models

14 within that AEDM and those also failure, now it's not

15 two new two. It's three and four. So then you get to

16 the step two of the consequences because it's still the

17 same AEDM in concept.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, okay. Let me look

19 through the scenario that I'm envisioning. This is

20 Jill from Trane. Envisioning. So I have an AEDM that

21 by if we get to the discussion of basic models by that

22 description, I've got 500 or so that are covered by it.
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1 We test whatever, however many. One of those we find

2 is a problem. I'm going to take that information back.

3 I'm going to change things about my AEDM. It will have

4 a new version. And it will be under a new version

5 control. So now it's a version .2 or whatever.

6 Now, sometime later you test another one and

7 you find -- that doesn't mean in all those 500 ratings

8 I go back and redo. They might still be fine by the

9 new version.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. That's what I'm saying.

11 We might not change ratings, you know, by the new

12 version, it may not have affected other models that are

13 in that AEDM. It may. It may not. I can't say. You

14 know, I mean, it just depends what the nature of it is.

15 Then let's say you come back at some point in that

16 three- year period and you have tested another one and

17 now we're to the trip of two. Okay? We're on another

18 version of that. So now we're looking back. We're on

19 another AEDM? Because every single time, then, every

20 single time I'm getting an AHRI test back, I'm looking

21 at that.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Right.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: So there are 30 to 50 of those

2 coming back every single year.

3 MS. BARHYDT: So to make this easy, let's

4 assume that I am not testing anything that's passing

5 ratings. So I test one. Invalid rating. Test two.

6 Invalid rating. You are now required to go back and do

7 some testing. And you check your AEDM. Maybe you

8 rerate some stuff. Maybe you don't rerate some stuff.

9 But you have met your requirement to go back and look

10 at your AEDM, maybe do some additional testing. We

11 test a third one. Invalid rating. Test a fourth one.

12 Invalid rating. At this point, from our perspective,

13 you may have changed that thing 25 times. You may have

14 changed it 200 times. We don't care. All we know is

15 that we're up to four tests that you still have not --

16 four for four. You still have not come up with a valid

17 rating. We test another one. We test another one.

18 You may have changed it 25 times. You may have tested

19 it 5,000 times at this time. You're just tweaking the

20 heck out of this thing.

21 MS. MEYERS: But it's not that --

22 MS. BARHYDT: But they still have six ratings
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1 where you still have not been able to come up with a

2 valid rating.

3 MS. MEYERS: Right. But it's not the same

4 AEDM. This is --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: No. In the case I was talking

6 about, I was saying, let's say, you had one AEDM

7 covering 500 models.

8 MS. MEYERS: Oh, okay.

9 MS. BARHYDT: And so the version control part

10 of it, we're not looking at version 1, version 1.1,

11 1.2.

12 MS. MEYERS: Right.

13 MS. BARHYDT: We're saying this is your model

14 for these types of products and that you may be working

15 on it every single day of the week. But we're

16 concerned about this is the model that I'm using to

17 rate these products.

18 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from Rheem.

19 So it seems like this chart is more about the

20 manufacturers' ability to use an AEDM to develop --

21 MS. BARHYDT: And have it generate --

22 MS. JAKOBS: -- appropriately, rather than --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: -- appropriately.

2 MS. JAKOBS: -- as being a specific AEDM.

3 MS. BARHYDT: I think, if I understand the

4 distinction you are making, yes.

5 MR. DOPPEL: So Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

6 So this is almost like saying that it doesn't matter

7 which AEDM you are using if you have multiple failures.

8 MS. BARHYDT: We have limited it to a single

9 AEDM.

10 MR. DOPPEL: But if you had four failures of

11 four tests from four different AEDMs, then that chart

12 says there is no action taken.

13 MS. BARHYDT: That is correct.

14 MR. DOPPEL: But I am also hearing that you

15 are not checking AEDMs. So how do you know which AEDM

16 a unit is associated with?

17 MS. BARHYDT: So my expectation is that

18 something in the certification is going to tell us what

19 AEDM different things are tied to.

20 MR. AMRANE: But checking AEDMs, it could be

21 the same AEDM because, say, AEDM --

22 MS. BARHYDT: Well, there is a criminal
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1 provision about -- there is some expectation of

2 truthfulness.

3 MR. DOPPEL: It doesn't seem viable, though.

4 MS. MEYERS: Yes. Because, I mean, we get

5 new specifications from suppliers all the time, from

6 motor suppliers, compressor suppliers, that always are

7 causing us to tweak our AEDM. So you are going to have

8 different AEDMs all the time.

9 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

10 National. The thing, too, you can use 1,000 AEDMs.

11 You're going to have to have two tests for every one

12 that you create. It's going to put more work for you up

13 front. I mean, it's a lot.

14 As you said, there's a ton of flexibility in

15 here. A manufacturer could have 500 AEDMs for your 500

16 models or could have 1 AEDM and we have to do 2 tests

17 but take that huge risk of, hey, I could really get

18 knocked down here.

19 Give you a little bit of the numbers we're

20 knocking around. I mean, going back to one of the

21 examples, Paul, you had at the beginning, if they

22 tested 20 miles in 3 years, calendar years, which, as
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1 I've looked back at this thing, that is what I have a

2 bit of an issue with, if they tested 20 and told them,

3 "That's 10 percent failure," I don't think anybody is

4 going to be happy with 10 percent failure on something

5 around here. Yes. Two out of 20 is not good. That

6 would tell me there is something wrong, tell you guys

7 there is something wrong with that AEDM.

8 It seems to me like it's always better going

9 back to the numbers, but look at that timeline. I

10 think the three calendar years we had some side

11 discussions and it sort of came out of some of the

12 delays that AHRI does their program because they do it

13 based on a calendar year, it almost seems to me like it

14 would be better off doing unless DOE is going to have

15 that similar type of a beginning-of-the-year program

16 that they are going to certify in the way that AHRI

17 doers is that you are better off saying 24 consecutive

18 months, you have 2 failures or you have, you know,

19 whatever those numbers are is looking at that way

20 because to meet a calendar puts in a lot of unknowns.

21 It could be you could be 12 months and 2 days from one

22 test to another. It was bad. It could be 36 months
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1 fully, you know.

2 MS. BARHYDT: I think my preference would be

3 to just do a ruling.

4 MR. BAUMAN: Twenty-four months failure if

5 you think failures are --

6 MS. BARHYDT: So I have heard several times

7 that people want to narrow the three years down.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Three years is a long time.

9 MR. BAUMAN: Well, I guess part of the

10 question -- this goes back to some of the side

11 discussions we have had with AHRI about whether Frank

12 or -- you know, I think you had reasons that you felt

13 that the calendar years was a better way to base it

14 than the wrong way. So I think we ought to flush that

15 out, too, and see what the thoughts are on that side of

16 it.

17 MR. STANONIK: Our program does run on the

18 calendar year. I mean, you know, basic operation of

19 the program is every year they come up with a list of

20 models they intend to test for that year and then over

21 the course. You know, you schedule the test over the

22 course of the year. And the programs aren't considered
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1 on a test-year basis. But the other part of that, part

2 of the discussion, I think, here was that it doesn't

3 necessarily mean that company X has all their models

4 which they always test in January or test year and

5 company Y always has all their models tested in

6 September of the test year, but, you know, scheduling

7 is a tricky thing. So I think that was one of the

8 concerns, at least the discussion we had, that keeping

9 this the calendar year, everybody effectively in a

10 given year has the same risk, regardless of where it is

11 on the calendar. Pretty much just I think going to

12 check, we do have -- I think what he is going to check

13 is neither of us remember there is maybe a provision

14 about looking back.

15 MS. MEYERS: There is.

16 MR. BAUMAN: In other words, what if in one

17 year, we did see from a given manufacturer, let's just

18 say, an unusual number of failures? Then perhaps we

19 can look back and see if it fits some pattern. Then we

20 say, "Well, wait a minute." Just, you know, this

21 wasn't an anomaly. There is some history here that

22 suggests that something left the track, so to speak.
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1 But it is still a calendar year basis.

2 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. I

3 want to bring something else up. Is that from when the

4 testing is complete in the three-year calendar year?

5 Because what happens if you pick a unit you want to

6 test and all the third party test labs are booked up

7 for six months and then it goes in, there's a failure,

8 and then the manufacturer says that it wasn't set up

9 right and then you have to reschedule for both you guys

10 to come out there? There's another delay in scheduling

11 at the third party lab and it ends up going outside of

12 the three years. Is it from when you pick, when you

13 want the test, or when the test is fully completed?

14 MS. BARHYDT: I think it was from unit

15 selection.

16 MR. KOJAK: I think that should be in there,

17 too, because --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: You probably need to specify

19 that.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

21 MR. KOJAK: Especially if they say they can't

22 manufacture it. I mean, there can be a lot of time
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1 getting wasted with --

2 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

3 MR. KOJAK: -- trying to actually test.

4 MR. WHITWELL: And I think that's where the

5 three years came from. There was concern about that,

6 you know, how long it might take to go through the

7 second sample if it was deemed that that was necessary

8 to get a unit.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Like that?

10 MR. WHITWELL: So the 24-month period starts

11 when the first unit is selected. And then it goes for

12 24 months.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Months.

14 MR. WHITWELL: And then --

15 MS. BARHYDT: And then it drops off.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Then a new 24-month period

17 would start with the first unit selected after that.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Basically so let's say we

19 select a unit and we test it and it's not rated

20 properly. That would start the 24 months. And then we

21 have some that pass. And then we have one that fails.

22 And then we hit 24 months after this one. That first
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1 one is going to drop off. And then the 24 months is

2 reset to the second one that had not met the rating.

3 So basically it's just a constant rolling whenever

4 there is something that didn't make the rating.

5 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak again. So

6 does the 24 months start after the unit has failed to

7 meet the rating or when it was selected? It was when

8 it --

9 MS. BARHYDT: Based on selecting, so

10 everything based on unit selection.

11 MR. KOJAK: But the first unit, really, the

12 24 months should be starting after it shows that it has

13 failed. That is when the 24 months should start

14 because what if it takes 8 months to even test the unit

15 just from the selection. You know what I mean? So it

16 should be the 24 months should start after it's deemed

17 that it's not meeting its rating.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Like that?

19 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI.

20 Why would we not go with 24 rolling months, failure to

21 failure, failure being identified by DOE, "This product

22 has failed"? When you do a look-back 24 months and see
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1 if there are any others, this variability is going to

2 occur in there with every unit tested. And if we are

3 looking at selection dates, then it can be all over the

4 map, but if we look at failures, that's when we get a

5 document from you saying it's failed. Then you look

6 back to the previous failure date. And it's a rolling

7 failure.

8 MS. BARHYDT: I think my concern is as we go

9 through the process and let's say we do a test and it

10 comes out and shows that it didn't meet the rating but

11 it wasn't one of the ones the manufacturer preselected

12 to be at the witness testing, so they get a retest, and

13 so this process can actually last quite a long time and

14 so for us to have selected a unit within the 24 months

15 but then to have the process drag out and then we can't

16 take any action because the process itself of actually

17 testing, having the discussions and before we actually

18 reach a determination of failure, I don't like the idea

19 that that could be dragged out just so that it didn't

20 fall within a 24-month period.

21 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

22 National. I am not sure if I understood, Laura. My
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1 phone when the clock would start ticking is not when

2 you got that first notification of failure because,

3 really, at that point if you have a witness test or

4 whatever, nothing has really happened to you. The

5 clock would start when you have had your chance at the

6 witness test and everything else and it has been

7 concluded that --

8 MS. BARHYDT: Right. That's the way it's

9 written now.

10 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. I thought you --

11 MS. BARHYDT: We have actually named it

12 failure determination. No. I'm saying that to stop

13 the clock at the end of that 24 months, --

14 MR. BAUMAN: Right.

15 MS. BARHYDT: -- I wouldn't want us to --

16 let's say we pick a unit on month 20 and it takes a

17 while to get it into the lab and we do testing and then

18 it takes time to get it back into the lab for the

19 retest. But that unit was selected well within the 24-

20 month period, but it takes 5 months to actually get to

21 a failure determination --

22 MR. BAUMAN: Didn't we --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: -- because that rating was made

2 within that 24 months.

3 MR. BAUMAN: Sure. Well, I'm trying to

4 remember back a little bit. I'm trying to remember

5 what schedule we put or we got. When she notifies the

6 testing to be done, I think we have some schedule in

7 there. And you can't definitely delay it, any test,

8 for 18 months or something like that to extend it

9 excessively. It kind of gets down to what the

10 procedure is going to be for when we are notified that

11 that test --

12 MS. BARHYDT: Still, there is quite a bit of

13 --

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I think it was 180 days

15 to provide a manufacturer lead time.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

17 MR. BAUMAN: Right. But in that case, you

18 know, I don't think, too, you get a failure --

19 MS. BARHYDT: That's got a two-month period.

20 I mean --

21 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. I think I guess it's going

22 to depend on what the workload becomes and your budgets
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1 and all of that, but when you get a first test, I think

2 a person is going to move up to -- you're not going to

3 initially wait 20 months for that next one. But maybe

4 then we're talking about the 24-month period. Should

5 it be 30 months? Should it be so you can feel

6 comfortable and we feel comfortable, something in

7 there? But it seems like to go from start to start,

8 you know, understanding it may not be comfortable in

9 the end, but that would give us room to extend that out

10 without it being that period of unknown. I think the

11 failure to failure or noncompliance to noncompliance is

12 a better way to do that, but if we can figure out a

13 schedule that will make that work --

14 MS. BARHYDT: So if we did failure to

15 failure, I think I would want it to be longer because

16 of all of the extra time that is built into the process

17 itself.

18 MR. BAUMAN: Yes.

19 MR. EISNER: Could you say failure to

20 failure, an appeal? If it's overturned, it doesn't

21 count? If it's not overturned, you go with the

22 original initial test or would that mess up your
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1 ability to enforce the timing there?

2 MS. BARHYDT: Well, it's because it's not

3 really an appeal. It's that we're not going to make a

4 determination until they have gotten a retest.

5 MR. EISNER: I'm saying if it flunks on the

6 retest, then it's the date of the original test. It

7 would have had two within two years, even if the retest

8 was a half a year later. And that would result in

9 action being taken, but it would delay the action. I'm

10 not sure if that would mess up the purpose of the

11 program.

12 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers. I am not sure

13 that's true, what you just said, because it is not a

14 failure until after the second --

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I think that that is

16 something that in granting the retest, we are making a

17 statement that this test is basically being thrown out.

18 And so to base a data timeline on that doesn't seem

19 fair to the manufacturers.

20 MR. EISNER: Well, but then you could modify

21 your language to say failure to failure. If there is a

22 retest and it's another failure, it counts as falling
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1 within the time frame. Does that solve the problem?

2 They tested. They failed twice. So they

3 should be penalized because the failures would have

4 been within the two years if it was conducted the same

5 day.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So I know what you are saying.

7 I think that what the Department has said in these

8 meetings, though, is that that first test is -- I think

9 it makes me uncomfortable based on what we have told

10 everyone here, to call that a failure, because we have

11 said that test is --

12 MR. EISNER: And I'm not suggesting you call

13 it a failure. I'm saying that for the purpose of this

14 provision --

15 MS. BARHYDT: The completion of the first

16 test.

17 MR. EISNER: The completion is that it's the

18 date for the completion of the retest would count as if

19 it happened on the day of the initial test.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Test.

21 MR. SACHS: Laura?

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes?
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1 MR. SACHS: I'm having a great deal of

2 trouble, and I'm sitting in a room full of geeks. And

3 this is a process flow. And it would seem that a

4 subcommittee would be developing a process flow diagram

5 with timelines on it and bring it back to us so we

6 could visualize all of the trinkets and all of the

7 elements. I am not feeling we are reaching convergence

8 this way --

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

10 MR. SACHS: -- meaning I am confused.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

12 MR. SACHS: So I am making a suggestion that

13 this may be something that a representative or two of

14 DOE, two of the manufacturer, may want to just really

15 put all of these constraints down on a piece of paper

16 and then think about what the process flow looks like

17 with a can't --

18 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

19 MR. SACHS: -- or a logical tree or anything

20 else.

21 MS. BARHYDT: The one issue with that is that

22 this is on the list of stuff that needs to go to the
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1 ASRAC.

2 MR. SACHS: So we can spend a lifetime today

3 --

4 MS. BARHYDT: Right. I understand that, too.

5 MR. SACHS: -- and still feel a lot of

6 nebulosity, or we can ask a group of people to do it

7 and then we have a conference call perhaps, send out

8 the piece of paper. I'm not going to push this any

9 further.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Right. Okay.

11 MR. SACHS: I am confused.

12 MS. BARHYDT: So I guess what do other people

13 think about it? My hope was that before everyone

14 leaves this go-around, we could vote on something.

15 MR. SACHS: I will be uncomfortable voting

16 until I can see --

17 MS. BARHYDT: See something. Okay.

18 MR. SACHS: -- what that graphic presentation

19 looks like. Now, perhaps we could just do that graphic

20 presentation as a group as a whole. I am just -- there

21 are too many things floating around --

22 MS. BARHYDT: Maybe we can put something
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1 together this evening and look at it tomorrow.

2 MR. SACHS: I would think that would be

3 wonderful.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Yes?

5 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. As probably

6 the most vulnerable character in this room because our

7 product is quite often stocked and quickly tested,

8 self- contained, so it's quick to set up, quick to

9 break down, I am very comfortable with this information

10 here because I looked at this realistically. And the

11 DOE has limited resources.

12 Let's be honest. You're never going to hit

13 some of these numbers, especially in the expensive

14 products. If you spend $100,000 on an HVAC system,

15 you're not going to want to test 2 or 3 of these in the

16 next 6 months. If I just go through the numbers of how

17 many different products we have in this room, we're

18 looking at thousands of possible tests. You've got

19 1,200 from us. So the chances of rehitting all of our

20 failures is so slim, it's ridiculous.

21 MR. AMRANE: Did you have something else in

22 mind with respect to the voluntary program or -- I
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1 don't know.

2 MS. BARHYDT: That's on the agenda.

3 MR. AMRANE: I know it's on the agenda. It's

4 later on the agenda.

5 MR. SACHS: I'm surprised you would remind us

6 of that.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think we have got to --

8 what Charlie just said was the fact -- you know, what

9 our budget is, what Charlie just said. And the other

10 thing that hasn't been mentioned today, I thought the

11 major concern you guys had last time was that there

12 would be some fly-by-night companies who are

13 continually updating their AEDMs and kind of slipping

14 through the cracks. So just keep those three things in

15 mind when you come up with this. I think we're kind of

16 getting sidetracked and sideways because the fact is,

17 like you said, there are millions of these things out

18 there.

19 Testing, the lab capacity has test

20 constraints, our budget constraints. And our portfolio

21 is 70 covered products now. So we're not just focusing

22 our efforts on the commercial products that are
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1 represented in this room. You are a very small part of

2 a much bigger program that we test. So please keep

3 that in mind when you really -- you might be drilling

4 down a little further into the weeds than we need to.

5 MR. EISNER: Let's see where we are. We're

6 talking about a whole bunch of alternatives or we could

7 maybe try to narrow them down, especially in light of

8 the last thing that Laura suggested about a slightly

9 longer period or do we want to have somebody meet

10 together, a couple of people meet, with DOE tonight and

11 try to work out a chart that we could look at tomorrow

12 morning?

13 MS. BARHYDT: I'll work late if anyone wants

14 to stay.

15 MR. EISNER: I think we need to get all the

16 possible suggestions on the chart for people to

17 consider tomorrow morning or it won't be resolved

18 tomorrow. I think that's what DOE's -- Charlie?

19 MR. HON: Can I ask DOE what their projected

20 budget is on these projects?

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, you know, honestly we

22 don't know if we're going to get to 2014 yet, but I can
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1 say, with all honesty, that the number is going to be

2 roughly the same, if not just a little bit more focused

3 in this area. So with that kind of money --

4 MR. HON: What is it today?

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: For this program, it's 4 and

6 a half million --

7 MR. EISNER: Mike?

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- for all 70 covered

9 products.

10 MR. EISNER: Mike?

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: So that includes buying the

12 stuff, testing the stuff, contractor support, doing,

13 you know, lots of work. So think about how much your

14 stuff costs. You can do the math.

15 MR. EISNER: Mike, did you have something you

16 wanted to add?

17 MR. RIVETS: Just in coming up with the

18 process document, it might be useful to define what it

19 means by the same AEDM because as it's revised

20 constantly, you could make the argument that it's never

21 the same. So if it means the AEDM for which that

22 product is included including revision or something,
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1 just --

2 MS. BARHYDT: To address. That's the

3 discussion we had earlier, come up with wording.

4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Those two alternatives,

5 how many people would like to see this go to a special

6 group to meet tonight and have something to put on the

7 screen tomorrow?

8 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

9 Two additional questions. What impact is it going to

10 be if a company is a member of the voluntary program

11 and is also being tested?

12 MS. BARHYDT: So our expectation is that

13 those sorts of issues will be dealt with in the VICP.

14 This is the pure DOE testing framework.

15 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. And the second part of

16 that is the 1 to 35 and greater than 35 confusion about

17 whether that is the number that you actually test or

18 the number of miles that are contained within an AEDM.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Tested.

20 MS. MEYERS: That's not what I meant.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

22 MR. STANONIK: It had always been tested.
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1 Yes. The heading of that table is always been tested.

2 MR. DOPPEL: That's not what Karen proposed.

3 MS. MEYERS: Yes. My proposal is it depends

4 on how many possible model combinations or containment

5 in an AEDM. That makes the relevance of how many

6 models are tested and whether that AEDM is good or not.

7 I go back to, you know, an AEDM for an HVAC product

8 could cover thousands of possible model combinations.

9 So if you fail two, it's pretty insignificant. If it's

10 a commercial water heater AEDM, where there are maybe

11 20 models in that AEDM, and you fail 2, it's of much

12 bigger significance. So my point before was the

13 failures depend upon how many models are contained

14 within that AEDM.

15 MS. BARHYDT: But if we are 2 for 2, we have

16 tested 2 and 2 have failed, from our perspective, it is

17 immaterial whether the manufacturer chose to put 10

18 basic models in there or 100 basic models in there.

19 MR. SHEBIK: It's not two fail --

20 MS. BARHYDT: If we have tested two, and

21 we're two for two, then --

22 MR. SHEBIK: You don't care. Yes. You don't
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1 care what AEDM is.

2 MS. BARHYDT: No. Within the AEDM --

3 MR. SHEBIK: I'm sorry. You don't care what

4 the basic model group is or product class. You just

5 don't.

6 MS. BARHYDT: It is what the manufacturer put

7 in the AEDM.

8 MR. SHEBIK: Those models all fall under the

9 AEDM.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

11 MR. DOPPEL: So, then, the three-year period

12 doesn't matter because what I'm hearing from you is as

13 soon as two fail --

14 MS. BARHYDT: Within a three-year period or

15 two- year period or whatever period you end up with.

16 So the manufacturer has some -- there is a cutoff for

17 you. It's not like this is in perpetuity and you had

18 one fail ten years ago and we just had a second one

19 fail and now you're on the hook. There is a cutoff. I

20 mean, we're not going to hold it against you forever.

21 And so that's really what the two-year/three-year

22 windows that start, windows that stop is getting at.
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1 How long is this hanging on your record?

2 MR. SHEBIK: Yes. So three years is too far.

3 MR. AMRANE: It's too?

4 MR. SHEBIK: Too long.

5 MR. AMRANE: Too long.

6 MR. SHEBIK: Three years is way too long.

7 Yes.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do I hear two years? Three

9 years?

10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

11 National. Are we talking about failure to failure? I

12 think that is where we got potentially stopped with you

13 being concerned about your time schedule. I think --

14 MS. BARHYDT: Right. And so --

15 MR. BAUMAN: -- the concept of a few years

16 works for the understanding that the potential for

17 backup -- I think if we do it any other way, other than

18 confirmed noncompliance, to confirm noncompliance,

19 which I know you and Ashley had --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

21 MR. BAUMAN: When we talk about it, let's

22 just assume it has been retested, it has been
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1 witnessed, whatever else, from a noncompliance --

2 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

3 MR. BAUMAN: -- to a noncompliance. What's

4 that time period? What can be --

5 MS. BARHYDT: And getting that down into two

6 makes me nervous because we have a very long time built

7 into the process. And so, I mean, at that point, we

8 basically are working on a six-month window. And

9 that's just not --

10 MR. EISNER: Two and a half years would be

11 reasonable and acceptable. We've got to decide whether

12 to continue with this discussion.

13 MR. AMRANE: What do we do now with the

14 certification program today as far as how do we trigger

15 the certification program today? What is the timeline

16 to trigger failures? When you fail within -- how long

17 and --

18 MR. WHITWELL: Calendar year.

19 MR. AMRANE: Is it calendar year?

20 MS. MEYERS: And make your selection at the

21 beginning of the year so you know. And you have to

22 test a certain percentage of your basic models every
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1 year and make those selections at the beginning of the

2 year.

3 MR. TRITSIS: Three years?

4 MS. MEYERS: We know when we have to have --

5 MR. DOPPEL: So it's defined.

6 MS. MEYERS: It's very defined.

7 MR. DOPPEL: It's a very defined window.

8 This is why it opened.

9 MR. KOJAK: There's a difference because with

10 AHRI, you guys test thousands of units. And the DOE is

11 only going to do a handful compared to AHRI. So the

12 timeline has got to be different because the amount of

13 testing going on at the AHRI contract lab is high

14 volume compared to what they are going to be doing. So

15 the timelines can't be as short because the DOE isn't

16 going to be contracting a full-time third party lab to

17 just do nothing but test commercial products. It's

18 going to be, you know, here, there. You know, it's

19 going to be very sporadic. So you can't say it's got

20 to be within a calendar year because they might not

21 even test a whole lot of units in one year. You know,

22 I think it's just not apples to look at an AHRI program
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1 to what the DOE is trying to do.

2 MR. WHITWELL: And that is one of the

3 concerning points, I think. I mean, I don't know how

4 to solve this, but, you know, one year it could be they

5 have a budget for, let's see, 10 units, the next year

6 they've got a budget for 1,000. And I'm exaggerating,

7 but -- so you just never know, you know, from one year

8 to the next what might happen.

9 MR. EISNER: Could the trigger be the number

10 of tests that DOE does in a year? Could there be a

11 trigger based on the number of tests that DOE does in a

12 year so that if they do double or triple their budget,

13 the numbers would change?

14 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. Well, I think

15 we have that in the chart that is up here. If the

16 budget is higher and you would be able to test more

17 than 30-some models --

18 MR. EISNER: But there is still some concern.

19 MR. BALLO: That is not the concern.

20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I

21 really think this is much "to do" about not a whole

22 lot. If you look at this rationally, DOE is not going
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1 to be testing 35 of your models. I don't care if they

2 have 10,000 in your AEDM. They're not going to be

3 testing 35 of your models. So, really and truly, the

4 first column is the only one you need. They have

5 agreed to something. They need to discuss something

6 for a second column for those that can't get

7 comfortable with that.

8 And I was initially proposing the failure to

9 failure, but in hearing the discussion on this,

10 remember, we've got 18 months for those of us who make

11 highly customized equipment. And that's not defined.

12 So anyone could take 18 months to deliver a replacement

13 product. You do that, and then you have a witness to

14 retest. In 36 months, you're already outside the 24.

15 So I think if there's a question -- I'm comfortable

16 with what is up here right now: the 24 rolling months

17 from defined failure by DOE to their call for another

18 test unit, a checkup on you of 24 months rolling

19 between those 2 points in time.

20 If we were going to go to failure to failure,

21 I would hate to have this kind of exposure, but

22 thinking about the 36 months, you would need at least
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1 48 months of a window to keep a manufacturer from being

2 able to within the rules just never have to within that

3 window. So it seems to me at something like 24 from

4 the defined failure to the call for the next unit to be

5 tested or 48 months, if it's going to be failure to

6 failure.

7 MS. JAKOBS: I was just wondering. I don't

8 think that -- well, the AHRI program, they make

9 selections every year. I don't think you're talking

10 about that, that you're fixed. So, just like you were

11 saying, Frank, that you could have a failure. DOE

12 could select another unit immediately. So it's not a

13 matter of there being this kind of random selection,

14 like AHRI does. It could be more targeted.

15 MS. MEYERS: It would be.

16 MS. JAKOBS: So AHRI could compress the

17 timeline for a specific manufacturer, even a specific

18 model.

19 MS. BARHYDT: The provisions that we had

20 worked out before does give the manufacturer -- is it

21 18 months? -- to actually deliver that second unit. So

22 let's say that we had a failure and a retest --
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1 MULTIPLE SPEAKERS: A hundred and eighty

2 days.

3 MS. JAKOBS: Hundred eighty days. Okay. I

4 was going to say, a hundred and eighty days to deliver

5 that second unit. So after we finally reach a

6 determination that it didn't meet its rating, we've got

7 a six-month lag before we even necessarily see a unit.

8 Then we have the test lab. How fast does it get

9 tested? Then there's a potential for a retest. How

10 fast does that occur? I mean, we're really hitting

11 that --

12 MS. BARHYDT: But you are not limited to

13 that, to the final determination. You could order

14 another one after the first test if you wanted. You

15 can do whatever you want.

16 MS. JAKOBS: We could do that. I don't know

17 that there is a lot of sense in doing that until we

18 know that there is really an issue.

19 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. So

20 your selection process, is it completely random or --

21 MS. BARHYDT: It is not completely random.

22 MR. SHEBIK: It is not random. Okay. Okay.
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1 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Isn't this

2 objective to define the really bad players?

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

4 MR. HON: That's the purpose here. And if

5 you're receiving a whole lot of complaints about a

6 particular supplier and then you bring in a unit, it

7 fails miserably, and you bring in another unit, you're

8 going to be finding the bad players. You're not going

9 to be finding guys who passed the first test. You're

10 not going to be finding the guys who are not receiving

11 a lot of complaints. Your objective is to find the bad

12 player. And the way you find the bad player is

13 information outside of your test programs. So these

14 numbers, you can hide in these numbers for a long time,

15 even if you are a bad player.

16 MS. BARHYDT: That's my biggest concern is

17 that I don't want to build a framework that makes it

18 impossible for the Department to deal with bad players.

19 I am very sympathetic and do not want to create a

20 framework that you are uncomfortable with, that you

21 believe leaves you vulnerable where you are doing

22 everything possible to make compliant products. But at
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1 the end of the day, we want to have a framework that

2 will work for us to enforce against people who are not

3 meeting the regulatory requirements. And so for us,

4 it's a trade-off. I want to give you that level of

5 comfort that you have within your power the flexibility

6 and the ability to take actions to protect your company

7 while at the same time making sure that we have a

8 program that is effective at actually enforcing the

9 regulations.

10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers at PVI again.

11 I would suspect that if DOE were looking at

12 manufacturers that were currently in a VICP knowing

13 that the number of units that were selected, the

14 chances would be much lower, not zero, but much lower,

15 that those would be the ones that would be selected, it

16 would be the ones that are --

17 MR. HURST: Outside.

18 MR. MYERS: -- outside of that or if they're

19 bad players within it, that they feel the program isn't

20 catching, pretty much everybody is going to know who

21 that is. So it's not the players that are doing the

22 right thing and that are in the program. I'm not
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1 speaking for you, but just it would make sense that DOE

2 would not be selecting a lot of models that are

3 currently in the VICP program to do their check. They

4 would be looking for manufacturers outside of it or the

5 outliers in terms of their claims within the program, I

6 suspect.

7 MR. AMRANE: Right. But there is nothing in

8 writing that says that, though.

9 MR. MYERS: That is correct.

10 MS. BARHYDT: No, but there is a pragmatic,

11 effective use of resources.

12 MR. AMRANE: Right, right. We understand

13 that.

14 MR. EISNER: Could you put something in

15 writing? Could you ask them to put something in writing

16 that would speak to that?

17 MS. BARHYDT: So I think that that is

18 something that we are willing to discuss when we get to

19 the VICP discussion.

20 MR. EISNER: What is holding up agreement

21 here? What are people still troubled by?

22 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. I can only respond
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1 in terms of what is troubling is a specific issue that

2 arose several years ago with residential products, in

3 which the voluntary program seemed to have trouble

4 dealing with it until beat over the head or stimulated

5 by DOE. This was the question of simulation-based

6 ratings for third party mix and match, evaporator coils

7 for residential equipment. And I have said at least as

8 much as I know about that, which was there was -- maybe

9 going beyond what I think I know, that there was a bad

10 actor and that, for various reasons, perhaps including

11 antitrust, the voluntary program was very slow to be

12 able to take action on a known bad actor.

13 So I think this is what we're -- Charlie has

14 been alluding to also, not that specific one, but how

15 do we get some assurance that we can effectively find

16 and fix problems with bad actors with DOE as an

17 effective backup to the voluntary programs? Is that

18 really what the issue is?

19 MS. JAKOBS: I think there is a second issue,

20 that it is protection from being wrongly accused, too.

21 Everyone wants to get rid of the bad actors, but you

22 want to have some recourse if you are accused and not
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1 guilty.

2 MR. SACHS: Absolutely. Much appreciated.

3 MR. EISNER: Is there something that could be

4 added that would allay your concerns?

5 MR. SACHS: Well, the geek side of me says

6 what I want is a real good wide bandwidth channel from

7 manufacturers in the VICPs back to DOE saying, "Test

8 this guy." I haven't heard much about that direction

9 of the information pipe.

10 MR. MYERS: Hopefully, "Test this guy.

11 Here's the data."

12 MR. SACHS: Yes. Thank you, Frank.

13 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

14 Well, AHRI notifies DOE when there's a failure; right?

15 MR. AMRANE: We do, yes. We have a challenge

16 test, too, in our program. So you can challenge.

17 MR. SACHS: Okay. So it may be that I just

18 need to know more.

19 MR. AMRANE: Maybe you do because I think if

20 you're thinking about the core issue, I think it is a

21 very special issue here. I mean, the core only

22 manufactures -- this is a very specific issue that does
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1 not apply to what we're talking about here anyway, but

2 --

3 MR. SACHS: You may be right, Karim, but in

4 my mind, the juxtaposition of the fact that this was a

5 simulation-based rating program and one where we had a

6 persistent problem that really affected some of the

7 utility rebate structures that those guys' families

8 weren't getting the savings that they were paying for.

9 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

10 MR. SACHS: So that's the model that sticks

11 in my mind.

12 MR. AMRANE: Yes. I think, however, you need

13 to know a little more about the program itself because

14 there are quite a few details that you do not present

15 here regarding that program where, in fact, the

16 ratings, the simulated ratings, that you were talking

17 about, these are based on our chart, DOE-approved

18 software models. And the fact, though, of the model is

19 that, you know, the industry itself took action to

20 create the validations and simulations before ratings

21 are even uploaded, even a cap, without any DOE

22 pressure. So the industry itself took action to take
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1 care of that perceived problem.

2 MR. SACHS: I do look forward to learning

3 more --

4 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

5 MR. SACHS: -- about it to allay my --

6 MR. AMRANE: We can show you that currently

7 for that particular program, there is an outreach

8 software that is used before even each and every rating

9 is uploaded into the --

10 MALE SPEAKER: There is a steep price

11 involved.

12 MR. AMRANE: That is correct. And there are

13 other validations, too. So yes. A lot happens. It

14 should be rather quickly and without any pressure from

15 DOE or anybody else.

16 MR. EISNER: I suggest we take a ten-minute

17 break. And people should talk amongst each other or

18 talk to me if you can't find somebody else to talk to

19 about what language could be added that would lessen

20 the concern about some of these. They are vague

21 because everybody thinks they are a good actor in this

22 room. And, therefore, they are not going to have the
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1 two failures. So what can be put in there to lessen

2 those concerns? All right. Ten minutes. 11:30.

3 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Who's come up with the

5 language and wants to volunteer to go first?

6 MR. AMRANE: I think that for AHRI, maybe we

7 can go with those numbers, but contingent upon

8 revisiting them when we are done with the basic model

9 definition and when we are done with the VICP

10 discussion because to me, for us, it's really linked

11 together.

12 MS. BARHYDT: So that means we are not

13 sending AEDMs to the ASRAC and the ASRAC is not going

14 to be able to move forward.

15 MR. DOPPEL: Why does this have to be

16 associated with that?

17 MS. BARHYDT: Because this is all about the

18 AEDMs. This is the last part of AEDMs. This isn't

19 about enforcing compliance with standards. This is

20 about do you have a valid AEDM. And to come up with a

21 whole framework for AEDMs that has no end game of do

22 you have a valid AEDM just doesn't make any sense.
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1 MS. JAKOBS: Well, I mean, one of the things

2 is what does saying A-E-D-M mean.

3 MS. BARHYDT: So we talked about that some.

4 And I agree that the wording needs to be flushed out.

5 But basically, it is a model that is used to rate a

6 product. And then you can make tweaks to it, but it is

7 still effectively essentially the same model that is

8 being used to rate a group of models.

9 MS. JAKOBS: Well, Harvey talked about a

10 model. So is that an AEDM? And all the time that it

11 has ever been modified, that's still the same AEDM?

12 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know a lot about it,

13 but my gut reaction is yes.

14 MS. JAKOBS: Okay. That's what I thought you

15 were saying. So it's kind of like if you used the same

16 assumptions, the same --

17 MS. BARHYDT: Except for that's on the

18 residential side; right?

19 MS. JAKOBS: Yes.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

21 MR. AMRANE: All of those could be used for

22 the small commercial ones.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

2 MS. JAKOBS: So, then, if you fail, then you

3 want to fix it. So there's no way to fix it and still

4 make it a new AEDM. I have done modeling for probably

5 40 years. It's not so cut and dry. You know, there

6 are a lot of nuances and just for anything. And in the

7 mind of the person who is actually doing the modeling,

8 who is writing the code, it is different from -- I

9 mean, it is completely different, where if you would

10 explain it to your aunt what you did, she would think

11 it was the same old thing. You know, there's this

12 whole thing about what is the same and what is

13 different. And when it comes to actual models passing

14 or failing, it's going to be a nuance. It's not going

15 to be we missed the boat completely or, you know, we're

16 on continent. We're off a bit.

17 You know, so that would be -- if you go

18 through the whole process and the eight when you go

19 over eight and then you have to do two more basic

20 models, it's going to be, you know, kind of a flight

21 change probably. You're not going to find a whole new

22 way to model a boiler or the combustion process. It
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1 could be to the revision, rather than something new.

2 So the problem is this thing about -- you know, so when

3 you have your first AEDM, is that a forever or when you

4 rate it, maybe you have to say what AEDM version it is

5 and then the new version, it's a new one? You know,

6 maybe there's some documentation that describes what

7 the same is and what is different.

8 MS. BARHYDT: So the way you are describing

9 it is -- I would respond to that by saying, "same AEDM"

10 is not the right word for the concept that we are going

11 for. We're going for -- I have these ten models and I

12 used this piece of code to come up with ratings for

13 these ten models. And I'm going to call that model

14 "Alligator." I may tweak that piece of code

15 "Alligator" and tweak it and tweak it and tweak it over

16 the next 20 years. But that model, effectively that

17 fundamental chunk of code that is getting tweaked, it's

18 not identical, but it's still -- all of my ratings for

19 these ten models are coming out of Alligator.

20 And what we want to say is that for those ten

21 models, whatever that chunk of code is that you are

22 using to rate those ten models, that if we test two
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1 models and then we test four models and then we test

2 six models, out of those ten, that those all came from

3 Alligator. And that's what we're looking for.

4 Our expectation is that hopefully after the

5 first two failures, you will tweak it. But then when

6 we test two more and it is still coming out of

7 Alligator, that is additive, even though you have made

8 tweaks to it.

9 MS. MEYERS: But that's not how we do it.

10 That's your concept, but that's just not --

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

12 MS. MEYERS: -- how we do it. That's the

13 problem.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

15 MR. DOPPEL: So that basically says the AEDM

16 never dies.

17 MR. RIVEST: It dies after --

18 MS. BARHYDT: That's why we have the time

19 period in there.

20 MALE SPEAKER: Karen, how do you do --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Am I right? The basic code

22 behind it likely would not change after the two years
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1 because the basic code is basic thermodynamics? Basic

2 thermodynamics haven't changed since Newton -- thank

3 you -- probably back to way before I was in school. So

4 then the AEDMs are never changing.

5 MS. JAKOBS: So when you get to the sale of

6 eight of them, then it says you have a new AEDM or you

7 have validation out of our your old AEDM or new models

8 or --

9 MR. STANONIK: What are you doing with the

10 AEDMs? You're predicting ratings of models you haven't

11 tested; right?

12 MS. JAKOBS: Right.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Using rules of thermodynamics

14 and --

15 MR. STANONIK: So I am going to step out on a

16 limb and say as far as the part of the AEDM that

17 addresses the basic thermodynamics, I think I am going

18 to get that right. Okay? To me, I think what I am

19 hearing is the nuances come in when you start adding

20 the bells and whistles.

21 MS. MEYERS: They are checking the

22 efficiency.
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1 MR. STANONIK: What's that?

2 MS. MEYERS: They are checking the

3 efficiency.

4 MR. STANONIK: Yes. Right.

5 MS. JAKOBS: One of the parts might be for a

6 specific motor or compressor. There's a polynomial

7 that describes the performance over a map of

8 conditions.

9 MR. STANONIK: Right.

10 MS. JAKOBS: So you might find when you fail,

11 that your assumption in that one aspect of it was

12 wrong. And it could affect a whole bunch of models that

13 have that actual component.

14 MR. STANONIK: Right.

15 MS. JAKOBS: But you really haven't changed

16 how you are modeling the physics.

17 MR. STANONIK: Yes, yes. That's what I just

18 said. It's the bells and the whistles; right? The

19 thermodynamics held; right?

20 MS. JAKOBS: Right.

21 MR. STANONIK: But the bells and the whistles

22 -- and that is the tough part, admittedly. That is the
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1 tough part. But, Diane, in your example, I mean,

2 whether you intended or not, you said that you

3 discovered that the motor or whatever actually caused

4 you to rerate products. I would say --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: It might. It might not. It

6 might, and it might not.

7 MR. STANONIK: In her example, she said that

8 it did.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

10 MR. STANONIK: So I would say in that case,

11 you have a new AEDM, at least for those models that had

12 that motor.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: And you changed the motor

14 vendor. And now you have a new equation that has to go

15 in there.

16 MR. SACHS: That's not a new model, Frank.

17 That is a new set of inputs.

18 MR. STANONIK: You're right. I take it back.

19 MR. RIVEST: Something you said earlier

20 today, you said this could be more about your ability

21 to model using an AEDM.

22 MS. JAKOBS: Right. A long time ago I said
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1 that, yes.

2 MR. RIVEST: In the very beginning.

3 MS. JAKOBS: Yes.

4 MR. RIVEST: And maybe that's where we need

5 to go back. This process sets up a 24 time clock

6 during which you can do whatever you want to improve

7 your model as you get information coming back about the

8 test data. And after a failure, you know, someone

9 stands up and says, "You really can't -- we can't do

10 this right. And so we need to go to individual tests."

11 And the clock "resets" after that two-year period.

12 MS. JAKOBS: So, rather than --

13 MR. RIVEST: And you could just be certifying

14 the exact same AEDM, but don't expect different

15 results.

16 MS. JAKOBS: Rather than tie it to a specific

17 AEDM, --

18 MR. RIVEST: Well, if --

19 MS. JAKOBS: -- it seems like you are talking

20 about a manufacturer's ability to rate to an AEDM.

21 MR. RIVEST: Right. But we were trying to

22 limit the risk to the manufacturer. And, therefore, I
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1 think you would have to declare at some point in the

2 beginning of 24 months, these models are together and

3 we have 2 tests that validate our AEDMs for these

4 together. And they are in the same pool. And they are

5 for two years.

6 MS. MEYERS: So that means we can't change

7 suppliers or anything for two years.

8 MR. RIVEST: No. I don't think that that has

9 to do with anything.

10 MS. MEYERS: Well, it could change your

11 ratings.

12 MR. RIVEST: I understand what that's --

13 MS. BARHYDT: Change your ratings?

14 MR. STANONIK: But your AEDM should be able

15 to handle that or you have two AEDMs: one for supplier

16 A and one for --

17 MS. BARHYDT: But with my --

18 MR. RIVEST: Those are inputs to your AEDM.

19 MR. STANONIK: You're right.

20 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. This is Jeff with

21 National. As you mentioned earlier, that would be a

22 modification to a value entered in your AEDM. It
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1 doesn't change the AEDM itself. I mean, you could

2 rewrite a product without having to create a new AEDM

3 for it because you're still using the same task that

4 you did for that model into tasks that you did for that

5 AEDM. But you would be rating that.

6 MR. RIVEST: Because it's not impossible to

7 get into the nuance of it's in a modification or a new

8 AEDM and since we have a 24-month --

9 MS. JAKOBS: I really think that it's

10 impossible. This thing about the two basic models to

11 test them, yes, basic models to test the computer

12 model, you really can't do that. It's going to be the

13 actual testing. And I don't think DOE has a budget to

14 do a good job of testing these models. You will have

15 to depend on the VICP programs to have such a broad,

16 random selection, cover all the products within a

17 specific time period that -- to really, honestly check

18 models, which, you know, writing a model, probably the

19 bigger part of it is always testing your code and

20 seeing how well it works.

21 MR. RIVEST: That's all true, but, you know,

22 to the extent that these are tests that are conducted
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1 by a VICP or that are conducted by DOE for non2 participants in VICP, you need, more or less, the same

3 set of rules. And one way of not getting into this

4 boat is to do random samples of basic models and see

5 how the ratings come. And if it turns out that those

6 ratings or grouping of models was done by one AEDM, you

7 declare the AEDM invalid, whatever it is. But it would

8 be limited to those products that have been grouped

9 together for purposes of the AEDM. And we determined

10 at the last meeting that, sure, two tests are not

11 enough for you to have confidence in your AEDM models,

12 but it is at least a level of verification that a level

13 will be post every --

14 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

15 Could you define specifically what you mean by the 24

16 rolling months.

17 MR. RIVEST: Well, the way I understood this,

18 I mean, what I am hearing here, what I am saying, is

19 that for 24 months, products may be tested that you are

20 manufacturing. And if you reach, say, eight being the

21 real killer where you have to certify everything by

22 testing two of each, that at that point it would be
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1 declared because you failed eight times -- whatever

2 AEDM you have, it is not valid. And that grouping of

3 products that you declared as a part of that AEDM to

4 begin with, 24-month period, would be invalidated. And

5 you would need to come up with new ratings based on

6 test data. That is how I am trying to come up with a

7 workable interpretation of it. Otherwise if we say

8 tweaking the AEDM as you go along and it's a different

9 AEDM; therefore, you are constantly resetting to zero.

10 And that wouldn't be forcible. And it would be very

11 hard to police whether this was an improved AEDM, a new

12 AEDM, you know.

13 MR. DOPPEL: So I am reading that as the last

14 24 months always hanging on you.

15 MR. RIVEST: I see. You're seeing it as a

16 rolling rated moving hat.

17 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, moving --

18 MR. RIVEST: Well, maybe that's where we have

19 to go to the AHRI-type fixed two years to give it a net

20 so that there is a reset.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we test one on Month

22 1, we test one on Month 6, one on Month 12, one on
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1 Month 18, one on Month 24. We hit Month 30, and that

2 one's gone, and we only have the intervening --

3 MR. DOPPEL: Still five.

4 MS. BARHYDT: -- five.

5 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

6 MS. BARHYDT: We go one more month, and

7 another one drops off, so

8 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

9 It's the last

10 MS. BARHYDT: And so if we tested 3 in a

11 short period of time, and then 24 months goes by, 3 may

12 drop off all at once, and then you've gone from 6 to 2,

13 they would actually count against you, so to speak, or

14 zero, depending on the timing. You may be completely

15 free and clear.

16 But, I mean, that's assuming that we've

17 actually tested and you have had that many models not

18 rated properly. I mean, I guess my expectation is that

19 the vast majority of stuff that we test is going to be

20 rated properly. The idea that we're going to test and

21 test and test and everything we test is going to not

22 meet its rating is -- I hope that's not the case.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: We're just trying to figure out

2 the worst-case scenario.

3 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. I think

4 what we've laid out here is the possibility that for

5 built-to- order and custom components or custom

6 equipment, that it's very improbable that you'll get

7 significantly down this list to the two, the four, the

8 six, the eight.

9 However, for the smallest commercial products

10 available, they're still subject to the same variation

11 for blowers or different parameters. It is entirely

12 possible that we'll have a shipment of goods that will

13 be distributed throughout the country that, in random

14 selections, if you go to any random warehouse and pick

15 some, you have a probability of selecting one of

16 Company X's components with Company Y's blowers.

17 So there's a higher probability of the

18 smaller commercial equipment going farther down this

19 list and having more significant impacts. Did I

20 explain that --

21 MS. JAKOBS: So from that aspect, maybe it

22 has to be unrelated. Well, I don't know how you would
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1 know. You'd have to do analysis to figure out that you

2 didn't pull two samples and they bailed for the same

3 reason, because they were from the same batch.

4 MR. STEPHENS: Right.

5 MR. SACHS: I'm very naive.

6 MS. JAKOBS: I don't think so.

7 MR. SACHS: Just an old country boy. But

8 there's some things that I feel are really within the

9 manufacturer's control. And in an era of Six Sigma in

10 most other industries, I'm hearing that we really don't

11 have the ability to control the quality of our vendors.

12 We're getting a wide variety of motors within

13 manufacturer and certainly between the vendors of your

14 motors. And, darn it, to me, it seems that this is

15 what your safety margin is for. This is what your one16 sided distribution is for. And I don't see this as

17 necessarily being my concern.

18 MS. JAKOBS: Though one-sided wouldn't come

19 into effect if you didn't pass. It would be in that --

20 it would be a safety factor in the AEDM.

21 MR. SACHS: But --

22 MS. JAKOBS: But --
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1 MR. SACHS: Diane, I'm just trying to push

2 this particular responsibility that it seems to me

3 y'all own off DOE, that you have to make -- and I'm

4 being a little bit hyperbolic. But it's part of the

5 process of setting up your safety factors to account

6 for the fact that you might be getting third-party

7 Motor X instead of Y, because Y's running short this

8 week. And that's your responsibility. It's not mine

9 as the purchaser. It's not mine as DOE. Now, Phillip

10 is going to tell me why I'm wrong.

11 MR. STEPHENS: Just adding some colorful

12 commentary. It's an interesting study in the order of

13 magnitude for the businesses that are represented in

14 this room. A significant portion of the businesses

15 represented in this room, our suppliers are actually

16 larger than the manufacturers.

17 There are other manufacturers that are

18 significantly larger than the suppliers, than their

19 suppliers. So a lot of times, there is only one source

20 for a lot of components that we use, and they have

21 issues. They have issues, and they don't always tell

22 us. We do a good job of finding them, weeding them,
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1 out, and making sure there's no significant impact, but

2 there's still that dichotomy.

3 MR. SACHS: Excellent point, and I appreciate

4 that, but there's -- even things that are commodities,

5 like bolts come in different quality grades, strength

6 grades. It seems to me that having qualified the

7 simulation program, those varying inputs for whose

8 motor you happen to be using that day, because what was

9 available, and I'm sure fans were far worse than motors

10 in terms -- small motors in terms of their variability;

11 that that's part of the manufacturer's responsibility,

12 to ensure the quality we'll give the purchaser of the

13 product that meets that one number, which is all that

14 DOE can require, when we know, all of us, that that may

15 not be the best possible predictor of performance in

16 some particular application. I mean, we're doing some

17 kabuki here about how to get assurance on one number

18 for each product. End of rant. Diane --

19 MS. JAKOBS: I think part of the complication

20 is that one number, because it dictates so many things

21 that -- I don't know. There's so many inputs into it,

22 and even -- I have more experience with the residential
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1 equipment, but on the commercial equipment, our lines,

2 they're not even making two of the same thing in a row,

3 and they're different people, and they move around, and

4 a third of them can call in sick any given day, and

5 they all -- everything is always different.

6 And we have all these checks and balances

7 with our quality, and one person checks what the person

8 before them did in the line, and we sample incoming

9 components, and we have requirements for our vendors,

10 and there are all kinds of processes in place, and then

11 we're going to run one test, get one number, and you

12 can be in really big trouble if you fail.

13 MR. SACHS: Well, it's -- I'm missing two

14 things. Let me fess up that my wife did spend a good

15 part of her career as a manufacturing process person.

16 My son's in that field.

17 MS. JAKOBS: Uh-huh.

18 MR. SACHS: But I'm missing a couple of

19 things. First of all, Laura's been trying to tell me,

20 and maybe she's brainwashed me, that the consequences

21 of failing that one test aren't all so traumatic in

22 that there's an awful lot of process downstream. We
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1 really should never be getting very far into that

2 chart.

3 MS. JAKOBS: Let me -- the first failure is

4 very traumatic.

5 MR. SACHS: Okay. Now, it's very traumatic

6 up in the boardroom, or it's very traumatic --

7 MS. JAKOBS: Yeah, it is. Oh, man.

8 MR. SACHS: So, but now you're forced to make

9 the judgment of how big a safety factor to put in,

10 which costs money.

11 MS. JAKOBS: Right, and it makes you less

12 competitive, the bigger your safety factor.

13 MR. SACHS: But everybody else has that same

14 tradeoff between trying to improve process quality and

15 raise the safety factor. It's a business decision.

16 MS. JAKOBS: It is. It's a business

17 decision.

18 MR. SACHS: So it's a level playing field.

19 MS. JAKOBS: The thing -- part of the problem

20 is too that we haven't defined all the terms, so we're

21 all --

22 MR. SACHS: Well, yeah, we've got to iterate
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1 --

2 MS. JAKOBS: -- reading a lot into it. Yeah.

3 MR. SACHS: We've got to look back to some of

4 these things.

5 MS. JAKOBS: Well, I mean, I think, Laura,

6 you were saying we can't lose.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Well --

8 MR. SACHS: Don't pay attention to her.

9 She's a liar.

10 MS. BARHYDT: We've been living for several

11 weeks, and we're -- this one issue with the AEDMs is

12 the last thing before we can send AEDMs to the ASRAC

13 for them to make a referral to the Department so that

14 we can get some AEDMs, because what we heard from

15 everyone at the very first meeting was that everybody

16 wants certainty on AEDMs before we go forward --

17 MS. JAKOBS: So could we put --

18 MS. BARHYDT: -- and to get that rulemaking

19 done.

20 MS. JAKOBS: Could we put Xs, and we'll fill

21 in the numbers later, but agree on the format?

22 MR. AMRANE: She wants a number.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: But the problem is we can't

2 send it to the ASRAC with blanks.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: And we can't propose --

4 MS. JAKOBS: How come?

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- a rule with blanks.

6 MS. BARHYDT: And we can't propose a rule

7 with blanks.

8 MS. JAKOBS: You can't propose a rule with

9 blanks.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, so we want to put a

11 NOPR out as soon as possible on this, so the way to do

12 that is to settle this now, get it to ASRAC to act on,

13 and then throw it in a NOPR, where then you can

14 publicly comment on it. Again --

15 MS. JAKOBS: So we could do a safety factor

16 on our numbers so we would have a level playing field.

17 I -- you know --

18 MR. AMRANE: I guess the question --

19 MS. JAKOBS: I don't know. It's like --

20 MR. AMRANE: The question would be would it

21 be -- assuming that we made those recommendation to

22 ASRAC and then you go out with a rule, would it be an
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1 option, a possibility later on, if there is another

2 rule in VICP, to readdress, eventually, some of those

3 numbers, even if it's a separate rule, or -- I don't

4 know. I mean, at least

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Can't you just comment on the

6 NOPR?

7 MR. AMRANE: We can comment on the NOPR too.

8 That's another option, but

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So this isn't the

10 end.

11 MR. AMRANE: Yeah.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is the beginning to get

13 to the end that we really need to move on.

14 MR. AMRANE: Right.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: And if we keep kicking this

16 can down the road, at some point you're going to hit

17 the brick wall. That's, I think, not in anybody's best

18 interests.

19 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. So if

20 you're in a rolling 24 months, how are you going to

21 know which column you're in, whether it's the -- I

22 mean, I'm having difficulty understanding why there
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1 should be two columns.

2 MS. BARHYDT: So I will tell you, I'm not a

3 huge fan of the two columns. I think that makes this

4 extremely complicated. I think the likelihood of us

5 testing 35 models within a 24-month period with -- for

6 one manufacturer with one AEDM, I think the odds of

7 that are slim. That is a whole lot of testing and a

8 whole lot of process.

9 MR. AMRANE: That was not the intent.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: But I don't think --

11 MS. MEYERS: That was not the intent.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: -- that that's why we were

13 saying it. It was how we might envision you might be

14 using the results from the VICPs, where the VICPs are

15 doing that kind of testing.

16 MS. BARHYDT: So the VICP discussion should

17 be a separate discussion about how people within a VICP

18 are treated.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. Because then they might

20 come back --

21 MS. BARHYDT: These are ground rules --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: -- and then this might be a
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1 different scenario when you come back on this. That's

2 where I'm saying we might be circling back, because if

3 you now treat us that have more than 35 tests done --

4 MS. BARHYDT: This is DOE testing. This is

5 not VICP testing. This is DOE testing.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: But if you've accepted through

7 the VICP some sharing of that data --

8 MS. BARHYDT: We will discuss how that might

9 work in the VICP context. My expectation is that I

10 would not take AHRI's test data and throw it into this

11 framework. That is not what I have thought at all.

12 This is DOE testing. If there is a much higher volume

13 coming from a VICP, my expectation is we will discuss

14 how that would work when we talk about VICPs.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: And I don't see -- I see them

16 very tied.

17 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry. You see them what?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: I see them very tied, because

19 then I would -- as a VICP and member of that, if you go

20 and you go and you're accepting that testing and

21 somehow using in validation of our AEDM, then we're

22 coming back to this discussion and saying, "I don't
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1 think that the 2, 4, 6, 8 scenario works."

2 MR. EISNER: Maybe I'm missing something, but

3 I thought Laura said she doesn't envision DOE wanting

4 to use it. If you want to use it, won't you control

5 the conditions under which it's used when you make the

6 proposal? She's saying she doesn't even think it will

7 be used. If it -- let's assume it is not used.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Well --

9 MR. EISNER: Would you have a problem with

10 this?

11 MS. BARHYDT: I am not talking about using

12 VICP test data in this framework. This is DOE testing.

13 MR. EISNER: So if their going-in position is

14 there's no need to use VICP testing, would this cause

15 you a problem? And if you want VICP testing included,

16 that's a very different issue.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: We had a discussion last time

18 about -- let's say he did the two, and then we said,

19 "Okay. Now you're going to test more," could we, in

20 fact, use other test data that we -- instead of actual

21 units? We were talking about -- when we're talking

22 about these expensive units, the $100,000 units, all
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1 that kind of stuff. So, you know, could we, in fact,

2 use that test data that was recently done to a DOE test

3 procedure -- could we, in fact, use that test data --

4 MS. BARHYDT: For substantiation --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: -- and support that for --

6 MS. BARHYDT: -- of your AEDM to -- for the

7 manufacturer side of additional validation testing --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

9 MS. BARHYDT: -- yes.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

11 MS. BARHYDT: But that's different than

12 saying, "I'm going to use an AHRI failure on the left13 hand side of the chart."

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

15 MR. SACHS: Ah, it's a diode; AHRI pass is

16 okay, an AHRI fail, you won't use?

17 MS. BARHYDT: No, I'm saying they can use --

18 from our --

19 MR. SACHS: Yeah.

20 MS. BARHYDT: -- perspective, they can have

21 anyone do the testing for them at any time, so

22 MR. STANONIK: And, I mean, to your semi-
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1 comical point, but the fact is if they're in the

2 program, there's a failure, we take care of it.

3 MR. SACHS: Yeah. Yeah.

4 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. Yeah.

5 MR. SACHS: But the manufacturer, if there's

6 a DOE failure, could bring in the VICP testing as part

7 of the

8 MR. STANONIK: Well, it's a data point,

9 right?

10 MR. SACHS: It's a data point.

11 MR. STANONIK: The data point says, "At this

12 time, this product was tested, and it did pass."

13 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

14 MR. STANONIK: Let me -- I mean, let me

15 suggest something, or at least put it out here. There

16 has been a lot of discussion about -- and it's very

17 difficult, because there's things here that aren't

18 settled yet that obviously will affect this. But would

19 it be something to consider that this goes forward with

20 a statement as to what's been assumed is underpinning

21 this?

22 And as an example -- I'm just -- just, you
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1 know, some food for thought here. If we said that this

2 -- that, you know, there was some agreement on this

3 chart predicated on a definition of basic model that's

4 consistent with the concept of basic model as practiced

5 by the industry for the covered product, because we're

6 going to have different definitions for covered

7 product. Okay? And the experience that VICP

8 participation will be addressed in the regulation with

9 distinct criteria.

10 So rather than -- these are unknowns at the

11 moment; right? But I would venture that at least many

12 of us in the room are assuming that we will have basic

13 model definitions that are, again, I will say more

14 consistent with how people in industry think of basic

15 model for whatever product we're talking about, and

16 there's also -- even in this discussion, there's some

17 assumption that when we do get to talk about VICP,

18 there will be in the -- or at least in the

19 recommendation of the regulations, some unique criteria

20 for companies that participate in VICPs.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: I would agree. I think --

22 MR. STANONIK: And my point with that is,
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1 okay, we're moving this forward, but it's been clearly

2 stated this was, prior to the working group, moved

3 forward with these presumptions, if you will, or these

4 -- I don't want to call them conditions, but this is

5 the mindset of the working group.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So, Frank, I'm fine with that

7 approach, and I'm actually fine with all of the words

8 you said. My only question -- and I just -- I ask this

9 for clarification to make sure we are all on the same

10 page -- what does basic model have to do with this?

11 MR. STANONIK: For the industry, where the

12 basic model becomes important is depending on how I

13 define that, okay, is going to affect what my AED --

14 how big a basket my AEDM encompasses --

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

16 MR. STANONIK: -- or how many AEDMs I have.

17 Okay?

18 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

19 MR. STANONIK: And so that's the part at the

20 moment --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Our definition of AEDM --

22 MR. STANONIK: -- when people look at this
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1 and try to grapple with it --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: -- and what is contained within

3 an AEDM.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: It relates to how we would push

6 those.

7 MR. STANONIK: And, see, then it gets into

8 this question of, okay, I'm tweaking my AEDM, and how

9 many models am I affecting? And it just ripples

10 through there.

11 MS. BARHYDT: No. Okay.

12 MR. EISNER: Do we want to put this language

13 up on the screen?

14 MALE SPEAKER: It would be helpful.

15 MS. MEYERS: So say that again.

16 MR. STANONIK: All right. This is --

17 admittedly needs to be defined, but I was -- I -- what

18 I wrote here is that the recommendation of this chart,

19 okay, is predicated on --

20 MALE SPEAKER: Go slowly so she can keep up

21 with you.

22 MS. MEYERS: I've got it.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: She's a fast typist.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Keep talking louder. They're

3 telling me it's hard to hear you not near the mic.

4 MR. STANONIK: Hard to hear me?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, you got louder as you

6 went on, so

7 MR. STANONIK: Predicated on a definition of

8 basic model that is consistent with the concept of

9 basic model as practiced by industry, by product type,

10 and the expectation that VICP participation will be

11 addressed in the -- I'll say the recommendations with

12 distinct criteria. And my -- what I'm trying to say

13 there is if you're in a VICP, you're going to get -- in

14 this recommendation, you'll have separate criteria

15 applied to you, or different criteria. I'll say

16 different criteria. That's the idea I would be putting

17 forth.

18 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. So

19 where I see this -- the basic model impacting, if we do

20 not have, you know, a clear understanding of basic

21 model as practiced by the industry, then the concern

22 would be that -- let's say we had a ten-ton heat pump
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1 with various model configurations, but four of those

2 heat pumps were tested, and it's being -- it's

3 basically the same refrigeration system is being tested

4 four times.

5 So you're getting counted as four failures

6 for basically the same refrigeration system, whereas if

7 we had the understanding of, you know, what the

8 industry uses of basic model, then that system would

9 only be tested one time.

10 MR. STANONIK: Or you'd have four tests of

11 the same basic model, which would kind of be a waste of

12 resources; right?

13 MALE SPEAKER: Right. Right.

14 MR. MYERS: Could you roll that up for me,

15 please?

16 MR. DOPPEL: So then do we need to add basic

17 models tested? How about that?

18 MR. STANONIK: I would just -- I'm just

19 trying to look at it a different way. You're the

20 working group. I mean, you can

21 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

22 MR. RIVEST: Basic model.
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1 MR. SACHS: Oh, that's another new term.

2 MALE SPEAKER: Well, you're talking for the

3 failures?

4 MS. JAKOBS: Yeah, we're talking about here,

5 right, the number of basic models DOE sets up? Is that

6 what you're saying?

7 MALE SPEAKER: We only select basic models

8 for testing.

9 MS. JAKOBS: Basic model is in the bottom

10 one, where you have to test it for AEDM, two units per

11 basic model.

12 MS. BARHYDT: So I want to leave that as

13 individual models, because manufacturers can group

14 things into basic models, and it is possible that they

15 could group everything into -- in one AEDM into one

16 basic model, and then there's only one.

17 MALE SPEAKER: Right.

18 MR. STANONIK: And yet you'd have all these

19 listed; right?

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

21 MR. DOPPEL: I think that would be difficult,

22 to put everything into one basic model.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: It depends on how big the

2 manufacturer is and how much variety they have in their

3 offerings.

4 MS. MEYERS: It might not be for

5 refrigeration or boilers.

6 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, they are -- I mean, we

7 could put unique models, but

8 MR. DOPPEL: I think unique would be better

9 than individual.

10 MS. MEYERS: I could go with that.

11 MR. STANONIK: Well, but you've got to have a

12 listing; right? When you make a certification -- at

13 some point, whenever that happens, when you make a

14 certification report to DOE, you're going to list --

15 MR. AMRANE: All of them.

16 MR. STANONIK: -- your models. Those are

17 individual models.

18 MR. DOPPEL: You're going to list your basic

19 models.

20 MR. AMRANE: All of them.

21 MR. STANONIK: Whatever you're going to list

22 to DOE, those are your models.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. You're not going to list

2 all your models, because, again, that's -- you'd list

3 the models with all the stars. That's called the

4 asterisk.

5 MR. STANONIK: The discussion we've had is

6 here's the --

7 MS. BARHYDT: With all the little asterisks

8 there.

9 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. Here's the model

10 number, and the rest is asterisks. Asterisks do not --

11 MS. BARHYDT: Wild card.

12 MR. STANONIK: They don't count. Right.

13 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss. I think I may see

14 a solution here. We're looking under the left-hand

15 column, I think, to try to define what AEDM we're

16 talking about, and perhaps we should be looking in the

17 consequences and saying, "Different testing to validate

18 the AEDM covering the failed product within the

19 validation classes."

20 MS. BARHYDT: I think people wanted to limit

21 the left column as well, though, and that's why it says

22 that AEDM. It's that AEDM that was the one tested on
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1 the left-hand side.

2 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. That means

3 that in your listing, you're going to have to define

4 the AEDM used for any list of model; is that correct?

5 MR. AMRANE: Oh, yes.

6 MALE SPEAKER: You're going to have to

7 identify it.

8 MR. AMRANE: You'll have to --

9 MR. FLY: Identify it?

10 MR. AMRANE: Yeah.

11 MR. FLY: Validate it or whatever the --

12 MR. AMRANE: Whatever it is.

13 MR. STANONIK: I think in market, one of the

14 earliest ones we saw was developed for that.

15 MR. FLY: Okay.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, we have equally unique

17 names, so.

18 MR. FLY: You can just say you're using

19 Trane's AEDM. Then if it fails, it's not your fault.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: I know it's this acronym, but I

21 couldn't tell you what it is.

22 MR. EISNER: Other comments? Are we getting
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1 closer? Charlie?

2 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I have a real problem

3 with the last sentence that was added, where we're

4 going to possibly give preferential treatment to VICP.

5 That would -- inherently the program itself gives

6 additional data points. That gives them additional

7 data points they can apply, but if we're giving certain

8 other advantages to a member of a particular group, I

9 don't know how you can defend that legally.

10 MS. BARHYDT: So it says distinct criteria.

11 MR. HON: Right.

12 MS. BARHYDT: And it is queuing it up for

13 later discussion.

14 MR. HON: Okay.

15 MS. BARHYDT: I -- maybe I'm going to target

16 Karim here, and I'm going to impose like five times

17 more stringent requirements on AHRI participants.

18 MR. HON: Again, it's not right. Everyone's

19 --

20 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm not saying that we're

21 going to give preferential treatment to AHRI members.

22 All we're saying is that we're teeing up a discussion
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1 about VICP participation later.

2 MR. HON: Okay.

3 MR. AMRANE: But I have -- at the same time,

4 you have to recognize, Charlie, that there is

5 additional testing and scrutiny going through the VICP

6 --

7 MR. HON: And I a hundred percent agree.

8 MR. AMRANE: -- that those are not --

9 MR. HON: Those are all valid points, and

10 they can easily be applied into your AEDMs, and they

11 can be implied -- applied against governmental testing,

12 because if you tested these units, you can go back to

13 the DOE and say, "Here's test data to drop this unit

14 off the test because of validation." We can bring

15 those numbers right back down by increased validation

16 because of what you've already done. Statistically,

17 you're helping every member by doing those numbers, and

18 that's great information, because it protects your

19 membership.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Well, let's stick to this, and

21 we'll come back to VICPs later.

22 MR. EISNER: Yes.
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1 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss. The -- before we

2 move off of this table, we need to, I think, define the

3 timeline with which our consequences must be acted on.

4 Assuming we have the two failures -- our first two

5 appliances failed, how long do we have to generate the

6 new test data and create the new AEDMs and each of the

7 other subsequent --

8 MS. BARHYDT: So there's two ways to do this.

9 We can put in here specific deadlines. The other

10 option is to leave it open, and the Department's going

11 to work with the manufacturer based on the product and

12 realistic testing requirements, because I think there's

13 a huge amount of variability in these products and what

14 would be realistic, and I don't want to say 180 days

15 for something that's mass-produced and has a lot of

16 stock, and it's fast to test.

17 My preference would definitely be to leave it

18 open and -- I mean, everything over there on the right19 hand side, the way this is going to work is the

20 Department's going to say, "Here's your test data,

21 here's where you are in the process, and we're going to

22 work with you to address that, and we can work with you
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1 on timelines based on your products and what's

2 realistic."

3 MR. KLEISS: That sounds -- Option B sounds

4 preferable. The -- Jeff Kleiss again. Another thing

5 that I think might be worth talking about is the --

6 going back to the spot-checking that you're doing on

7 our appliances, the spot-checking, is that counted --

8 is that one of the tests, the one out of 35, the

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

10 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Now, if that's being --

11 that being the case, and the fact that we never know

12 how many spot checks we pass

13 MS. BARHYDT: We're working on that. We're

14 going to start giving you all some -- we're going to do

15 better at communicating test data for patents.

16 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Because then associating

17 if I've got AEDM Alligator, Bear, and Cat --

18 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

19 MR. KLEISS: -- I need to know how many tests

20 have been done on each --

21 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

22 MR. KLEISS: -- of these different AEDMs so I
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1 know where I fall.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. No, we agree, and we're

3 going to start doing better at getting all of the test

4 data out.

5 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. For my

6 previous note about the variation in watt size between

7 custom-built and made to stock, could we add a footnote

8 to this table addressing that?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Specifically

10 MR. STEPHENS: The fact that if you random

11 sample units from seven different locations in the

12 supply chain, you could possibly come up with seven

13 units with the exact same issue, and you would have

14 seven failures, but they would all be related to the

15 exact same issue.

16 MS. BARHYDT: And I think you're asking for

17 me to treat those differently than

18 MS. HOOTMAN: I think that -- I think --

19 yeah, go ahead, Frank.

20 MR. STANONIK: But -- okay. Phillip, but on

21 that example, okay, you're -- in this case, you're

22 putting forth the fact the manufacturer could identify
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1 if he got a bad component, but let's talk about

2 something simple. Let's say it's a water heater, and

3 however it worked out, the baffles in the flue were

4 just wrong. Okay? But in that case, you identified the

5 flaw in the manufacturing process, and whatever --

6 however it took, you essentially adjusted the AEDM.

7 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, but the supply chain, the

8 units are already in the supply chain.

9 MR. STANONIK: Yeah.

10 MR. STEPHENS: And the DOE's already

11 identified these are not custom-built units. They can

12 go anywhere in the supply chain at any time to acquire

13 these samples.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: And you're saying that lot size

15 that's out there in inventory is now out there, and

16 you've had that suspect baffle out there, and they keep

17 continuing to pick that same lot size.

18 MR. STANONIK: Right.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Once you have found the

20 problem, though, aren't you pulling that lot size

21 probably back in, and it's not out there, available for

22 them to keep picking?
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1 MR. STANONIK: As much as we can, yes.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: So I mean, one's a quality

3 problem, and that's essentially a supplier quality

4 problem. As identified whether it was with this test

5 or any other test that we've done, you know, you're

6 going to be pulling them back in. Yeah, I'm not saying

7 you couldn't have picked one or two of those, but I

8 doubt you'd have gone all the way down to six and

9 picked six of them --

10 MR. STANONIK: Right, but --

11 MS. HOOTMAN: -- because you've probably

12 found the problem and said, "Whoops, wait a minute. We

13 had a problem with supplier" --

14 MR. STANONIK: I'm sorry. But so let's say

15 two months later, or three months later, DOE picks up

16 another one of those and they see the same problem,

17 it's like, you know, that horse died four months ago.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, you didn't get it out of

19 the chain.

20 MR. STANONIK: Why do you keep beating it? I

21 mean, yeah, okay, so they're going to find another

22 failure, and you're going to be able to say, "Okay.
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1 That came out of this lot. You know, we talked about

2 this three months ago. It's a supplier problem."

3 MR. STEPHENS: But not all manufacturers own

4 all of their inventory throughout the supply chain.

5 MR. STANONIK: And historically --

6 FEMALE SPEAKER: You're going to have to tell

7 them to get them out of there.

8 MR. STANONIK: And I sure hope you don't

9 intent to bring this up. Historically, there have

10 never been DOE regulations that said the manufacturer

11 had to go out and retrieve products that were in

12 commerce that -- whatever the rating was.

13 MR. SACHS: I'm shocked.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: DOE doesn't handle them. EPA

15 does, but DOE doesn't. We could talk about energy

16 stuff.

17 MR. STANONIK: It would be a whole different

18 meeting.

19 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? Laura

20 raised the point about the second column. Do people

21 still think it should be in?

22 MS. MEYERS: So, again, what the 35 was
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1 intended to be was the size of the AEDM, not the number

2 of models tested. So when I brought that up, it meant

3 that if you had an AEDM that covered up to 35 models

4 and you had two failures, that was one thing, but if

5 your AEDM covers a thousand models or over 35, then

6 your consequences would not kick in unless four of

7 those failed.

8 So that was what I meant when we were talking

9 about -- not number of models tested, but the size of

10 the AEDM. So just want bring that up again, because

11 that -- you know, I know you're not going to go and

12 test 35 of the same model, but it was meant that your

13 consequences, you know, didn't kick in -- you know, if

14 you fail two, and you -- two tests, and your AEDM only

15 covers ten models, that's a big deal. If you fail four

16 and your AEDM covers a thousand models, you know, maybe

17 that's not a big deal.

18 So that's what I meant when I brought that up

19 was more the size of the AEDM and the number of

20 failures, you know, would be different based upon -- or

21 the consequences for the number of failures would be

22 different based upon the size of the AEDM. So, I mean,
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1 we can still keep it in there, but just -- I'm the one

2 who brought that up, and that's what I meant by it.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Why don't you take that column

4 out, and let's just discuss it in terms of just the

5 issue of whether or not we're looking at -- because

6 what I hear Karen saying is that she -- it's not so

7 much a one column, two column as a issue of what are we

8 looking at in terms of the -- is it the AEDM, or is it

9 the number of units tested?

10 MS. MEYERS: Well, it's the failures --

11 MR. DOPPEL: The size of the AEDM or the

12 number of --

13 MS. MEYERS: It's the failures per AEDM,

14 depending upon the size of the AEDM.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: One based on 35, and one based

16 on thousands, you know.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Right, but -- so assuming that

18 we're talking about basic models and not individual,

19 distinct flavors and variations, the manufacturer has a

20 great deal of discretion in how they group things, and

21 so one manufacturer may choose to group things into ten

22 small groups, and another one may choose not to group
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1 them at all and have a hundred different ones. And I

2 don't see why that has that much of a relation to

3 whether the AEDM is able to do modeling to generate

4 valid ratings or not.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I think we're back --

6 MS. BARHYDT: I understand it has the

7 consequences for potential rerates, but you have --

8 we've set very low requirements to develop an AEDM.

9 You only have to test two in order to have an AEDM

10 substantiated in the first place. A manufacturer can

11 have as many AEDMs as they want, as long as they have

12 two tests per

13 AEDM.

14 So a manufacturer has it within their

15 capability to limit their liability by managing the

16 size of their AEDMs. The Department does not have

17 unlimited resources to do a huge amount of testing. To

18 me, the place where the manufacturer manages the risk

19 is in how they define their AEDMs, how much testing

20 they do to substantiate those AEDMs, but then when the

21 Department actually goes in and starts testing, we

22 shouldn't have to do a whole lot of testing to be able
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1 to say, "You need to go back and look at this again."

2 Two failures on ratings -- all it is, is that

3 you have to go back and do a little bit of testing to

4 look at your AEDM again. It's not like two tests, and

5 you're having to completely redo your entire AEDM.

6 It's -- two is kind of a kick in the pants to just go

7 back and look at this thing again. It's not until you

8 have four where there's actually something really being

9 imposed.

10 MR. DOPPEL: Can we look at what the words

11 are before you delete that?

12 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, don't delete that yet.

13 MR. DOPPEL: Well, it says "different testing

14 to validate the AEDM." So it's not -- it's more than

15 just a kick. You have to have -- you have to pull

16 different testing.

17 MS. BARHYDT: But we're also hearing from you

18 that you have lots of test data from AHRI's program.

19 MR. DOPPEL: Right.

20 MS. BARHYDT: And if you have all of that

21 test data, realistically, you're just taking a couple

22 more data points, and you're plugging them in and
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1 checking that your AEDM is generating valid ratings.

2 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. But you're also going to

3 know from AHRI if we're having -- the manufacturer's

4 having failures or not.

5 MS. BARHYDT: But that is not factoring into

6 the --

7 MR. DOPPEL: It's not. But it's knowledge

8 that you have.

9 MR. STANONIK: Well, but they would have that

10 whether or not it came from AHRI, because once the

11 certification reporting process is established, the

12 manufacturer is -- if he's doing business in the United

13 States, is going to (a) have to certify models and (b)

14 have to report when models are rerated, so they'll

15 know.

16 MR. EISNER: Still concerns, Karen?

17 MS. MEYERS: Well, I guess I'm still trying

18 to -- so the consequences -- I don't understand how the

19 first two columns are comparing to the third column.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So DOE goes, we buy a unit; we

21 test it. We go through the full process. We get to a

22 determination that the rating was invalid. That's one.
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1 We do the whole thing again. That's two.

2 MS. MEYERS: Uh-huh. And that's when that

3 consequence kicks in?

4 MS. BARHYDT: And that's when the consequence

5 kicks in.

6 MS. MEYERS: So the second column means?

7 MS. BARHYDT: So apparently, our

8 misunderstanding of what you suggested was that if we

9 went out and we tested 35 of them, the bar gets raised.

10 That has to be four. Basically, it's 4 out of 35

11 instead of 2 out of 20.

12 MR. EISNER: There were some people who

13 expressed concern that you might get bigger budget and

14 do more testing --

15 MS. BARHYDT: Do more testing.

16 MR. EISNER: -- than would be reasonable.

17 MS. MEYERS: Okay. Well, the -- yeah. Mine

18 was like if 2 out of -- if you have an AEDM that covers

19 35 models and 2 fail, that's a 5.7 percent failure

20 rate; probably deserves a consequence. What I meant,

21 again, is if your AEDM covers a thousand models and you

22 have four failures, that's a much lower -- that's why I
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1 suggested the second column be added, because, you

2 know, it's a completely different issue, and this

3 becomes an issue, really, on the HVAC side, where you

4 have, like we talked about at the last meeting, so many

5 possible models and options that you could --

6 MS. BARHYDT: But we're not testing all of

7 those.

8 MS. MEYERS: But you might pull one of those.

9 MS. BARHYDT: One.

10 MS. MEYERS: And then you might pull, you

11 know -- so that AEDM covers a thousand possible

12 combinations, of which you could pull any of those

13 thousand possible combinations. So that's where --

14 that's why I suggested -- you know, so it's just a

15 different --

16 MR. AMRANE: She's talking percentage.

17 MS. MEYERS: I'm just -- you know, if that

18 AEDM --

19 MS. BARHYDT: I understand that --

20 MS. MEYERS: -- covers a thousand --

21 MS. BARHYDT: -- but the reality is we can't

22 test --
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1 MS. MEYERS: -- possible combinations and I

2 fail two --

3 MS. BARHYDT: -- 2 percent of Rheem's various

4 models.

5 MS. MEYERS: That's just why I -- but so

6 maybe we don't need that second column. I mean, that

7 may be where we're getting to, but that's just -- it

8 doesn't read right to me. I'm trying to --

9 MR. RIVEST: I think, Karen, what I was

10 trying -- part of what I was trying to address is,

11 especially with the AC and all the option stuff, like

12 we're -- and everybody's been doing a lot of work to

13 define what gets identified as, you know, model number

14 ADCC asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, okay, where all the

15 asterisks are all the options, you know, what is the

16 key -- the basic model that gets listed, and everything

17 else is simply options. Okay?

18 And even with that, there's still this large

19 number of options and large number of listings, but I

20 think it's -- DOE would only be testing the listing and

21 not the thing with all the bells and whistles, which is

22 what you both have been working on the last three,
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1 four, five days.

2 MS. MEYERS: So, I mean, I --

3 MR. RIVEST: That's why I said --

4 MS. MEYERS: I'm not sure we need that second

5 column, then.

6 MR. RIVEST: Well, that's what I'm saying.

7 Again, I was just saying predicated on -- we

8 get the definition of basic model --

9 MS. MEYERS: I mean, I just wanted to make

10 sure, does -- I mean, that's my opinion --

11 MR. RIVEST: -- that fits how you do business

12 -- right.

13 MS. MEYERS: -- because it's not reading the

14 way I intended it to.

15 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, I know.

16 MS. MEYERS: So if it's not going to be used

17 that way -- I mean, that's just my opinion.

18 MR. EISNER: But do you still have your

19 problem, even if the second column is taken out? It's

20 not worded to fix your problem. If they take it out,

21 do you still have the problem? So I'm having a problem

22 understanding it. I think what you're saying is you
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1 have many, many more products; therefore, two isn't the

2 right number to penalize you, compared to somebody who

3 only makes five models, and you make a thousand.

4 MS. MEYERS: Right.

5 MR. EISNER: But if the number, then, has to

6 be five or ten, I'm hearing DOE say the likelihood of

7 them testing ten of any of your models is extremely

8 remote. They'd never find a problem with yours, which

9 I'm sure you would be happy with, but how do you pick a

10 number, then, that would be appropriate for somebody

11 that makes a thousand? Because DOE doesn't have the

12 ability to test at the same rate.

13 MS. MEYERS: Well, yeah, if I have two

14 failings on the AEDM that covers a thousand models, my

15 AEDM could be perfectly valid.

16 MR. RIVEST: Not if you only tested two.

17 It's not how many you make. It's how many you test.

18 I'd be more worried about two consecutive failures on a

19 thousand -- a sample of thousand than two consecutive

20 failures on a sample of five, because the likelihood

21 that you would --

22 MS. MEYERS: No, because the model would be
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1 so much more complex.

2 MR. RIVEST: -- pick two in a row that fail

3 on 1,000 units is pretty small.

4 MS. MEYERS: Well, the modeling, though --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: No, no. The model on --

6 MS. MEYERS: Your AEDM is way more complex.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: The model on two on five really

8 is saying there's a problem with the model.

9 MS. MEYERS: Yeah.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: The failure of two on a

11 thousand says it could be a lot of other things. You

12 transcribed a wrong operating map in there from a fan

13 manufacturer. You did -- there's a problem. No

14 question, there's a problem. I'm not -- but it could

15 only be part of those a thousand models that it is

16 affecting.

17 MR. RIVEST: And it happens to be the two you

18 picked.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

20 MS. BARHYDT: And we don't force rerates.

21 MR. EISNER: You don't what?

22 MS. BARHYDT: We're not forcing a rerate.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: No, you have the choices.

2 MS. BARHYDT: The AHRI program --

3 MS. HOOTMAN: I realize you have --

4 MS. BARHYDT: -- has rerates built in, and

5 this is not forcing any rerates.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

7 MR. BAUMAN: If you think about it -- this is

8 Jeff from National. If you think about getting back to

9 what we're trying to keep out here is the people that

10 are maybe cheating or whatever, if somebody wanted to

11 break into the industry or whatever and do something

12 real fast and whatever, they're going to do two units,

13 test two units, make a thousand AEDMs, and have a

14 thousand models.

15 I'd want DOE to catch them with just two

16 models or whatever, that that's not for me to know that

17 you guys should be going after that person and their

18 AEDMs should be thrown out, and as we get later, then

19 it's going to be more. I mean, I think you want this

20 to have some teeth to it. That doesn't make it very

21 restrictive on what they can do.

22 I mean, that's -- again, there's a lot of
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1 flexibility for manufacturers, how they do that, but to

2 me, that would be -- you know, we could build thousands

3 of models, but we're not going to build a thousand,

4 because I wouldn't trust that many. Again, it's, you

5 know, different testing, but if somebody's using

6 thousands of models, again, discounting, you know, all

7 the variations and things we're saying to take out, it

8 seems like somebody's trying to make it as easy as

9 possible on themselves, and you want to make it as easy

10 as possible to -- you guys to catch them.

11 MR. EISNER: Joe Sanders on the phone line

12 wanted to make a comment. Joe?

13 MR. SANDERS: Yes, I had a comment. This is

14 Joe Sanders in Tulsa (ph). And that was the AEDM

15 failure rate should be based possible on unit

16 production and not on the number of models. Somebody

17 may have a lot of models, but no production of any of

18 them, where someone else is making a million model --

19 million units of a single model, where they -- where

20 the statistics don't work out quite right.

21 And then, also, the impact to customer and

22 consumers, maybe the failures should be multiplied by
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1 the energy consumption rate, meaning you get to a

2 certain value of kilowatt hours or whatever you need to

3 trigger, meaning if you're failing by -- if the product

4 uses one kilowatt hour a day, that's a lot different

5 than someone using a thousand kilowatts a day as far as

6 the impact to consumers -- the environment. Anyway,

7 that's

8 MR. EISNER: If the number two had to be

9 changed to account for larger models, what should it

10 be? A larger number of models, or a larger number of

11 products manufactured? What would it be?

12 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel. You know,

13 I think we look at, really, what the consequences are,

14 is you just have to incorporate additional testing to

15 make sure that you are satisfied with your AEDM. And I

16 guess -- I mean, it doesn't say we have to report back

17 to DOE that we are satisfied. Okay?

18 MS. BARHYDT: We will probably ask for the

19 test data, but --

20 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

21 MS. BARHYDT: -- but we're still not digging

22 into your AEDM.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: So there's -- yeah.

2 MS. BARHYDT: We're still not second-guessing

3 your model.

4 MR. DOPPEL: There's no rerating required,

5 you know.

6 MR. STANONIK: Of other models. Obviously,

7 the two failed get rerated; right?

8 MR. DOPPEL: I don't know.

9 MR. STANONIK: Well, they failed. This is

10 the ultimate determination. They failed. So they've

11 either been deleted from your product line or they got

12 rerated.

13 MR. DOPPEL: It doesn't say that in the

14 consequences.

15 MR. STANONIK: Because this is -- again, as

16 Laura said, this is talking about use of AEDM. Okay?

17 The -- in one of the earlier meetings, there's already

18 been the discussion about what the process is for

19 getting a -- getting to the point that says, "Sorry,

20 this is a failure." There are a lot of steps in

21 between there, including automatic retest, all that

22 stuff. When you get to the endpoint, it's a failure,
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1 and then there's -- there was discussions that said,

2 okay, if that happens, here's your choices. Rerate on

3 that model only. Okay? On that model only.

4 MR. DOPPEL: Where is that?

5 MR. STANONIK: It's not here. It's in the

6 previous meeting. It is

7 Thank you. All right. Okay. Keep going. All right.

8 Develop a rating process; right? So you've got to the

9 point. You said, okay, we've done all the testing, we

10 used every mechanism at your disposal to talk about it,

11 and the ultimate determination was it's an invalid

12 rating. And here's what happened.

13 MR. DOPPEL: As I understand it, this chart

14 that we're talking about would be part of this report;

15 is that correct?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it would be the last

17 thing on --

18 MR. DOPPEL: So it would be included with

19 this information?

20 MR. BAUMAN: Or at this point -- or just from

21 a -- we've had discussions earlier too about a bad

22 component or something, and when we've gotten to an
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1 invalid rating, my understanding is we've had

2 discussions with DOE or whatever, if there was a bad

3 component in that, you're going to say, "Okay. We'll

4 retest another unit or whatever with the right

5 component or whatever."

6 That's -- an invalid rating is a valid

7 rating. If you have some reason to show that that unit

8 that you tested was defective because of a defective

9 component or whatever, we have ways to work, you know,

10 to make that a published invalid rating, but to getting

11 accurate tests.

12 MS. BARHYDT: I think I agree with what you

13 said. You lost me on the published invalid rating.

14 MR. BAUMAN: Well, I guess I'm getting to

15 where, you know, you do a test that's not valid, but --

16 and then we have discussions and convince you or

17 whatever that it had a defective component, so that's

18 not really an invalid rating. That was a bad product

19 or bad test.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So it has to actually be a

21 defective component.

22 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. If it's -- I mean, from
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1 what I'm hearing, the discussion and the concerns about

2 components or fans using excessive enough to throw your

3 rating out of balance, I would think you're going to

4 show that that's a defective component. If you've got

5 components, various fan motors or whatever, you're

6 going to rate based on what you think the worst case is

7 of your approved suppliers.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

9 MR. BAUMAN: I'm just kind of reminding that

10 we have ways to work around some of those earlier

11 concerns that were raised about a bad component or

12 things like that or quality controls and things like

13 that, that manufacturers have a way, in the process

14 we've talked about, to --

15 MR. AMRANE: We have a definition?

16 MR. BAUMAN: -- compensate for those things.

17 MS. BARHYDT: We do not. So I think I agree

18 with what you're saying.

19 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. I have a question

20 about that. To me, a defective component means you

21 plug the thing in and it doesn't turn on.

22 MS. BARHYDT: "Defective" is it doesn't work,
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1 is the oversimplification, but --

2 MR. BALLO: Not just it uses a little more

3 energy.

4 MR. AMRANE: Well, but you could have a

5 defective component and have your system work, but not

6 performing -- you know, maybe being, you know, 60

7 percent or 40 percent below the efficiency. It would

8 work, though. So that's -- you know, so we'll have to

9 define what "defective" means, because it's not like it

10 doesn't work. It could work, but not perform as it's

11 supposed to perform. It could have a lot of things,

12 damaged component during shipping, whatever. I don't

13 know.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

15 MR. AMRANE: It happens all the time in our

16 programs. I mean, those issues happen. I mean --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: You could have a coil that has

18 solder all the way through it, so it performs. It's

19 doing a test, but it's quite obvious that the

20 temperature differential across that coil is now, you

21 know, suspect, and you can say why it is, and you can

22 point back to other tests of why that is now. And then
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1 if you take it out of there and you cut it in half and

2 you see all the solder, you go, "Oh, made wrong."

3 MR. BALLO: I appreciate that, it's just --

4 and maybe this isn't the time for this discussion, but

5 it seems like that's opening up an issue where the

6 manufacturer's going to have a lot more information

7 about their supply chain than DOE is, and if I'm DOE

8 and I just had this one unit and I test it, I want to

9 be able to make a determination up or down with the

10 minimum amount of potential for a manufacturer to walk

11 one through the assembly line to make sure it gets

12 soldered correctly or, you know, that this particular

13 coil is soldered correctly. That unit would not

14 necessarily be representative of the manufacturer's

15 output. Maybe the overly soldered coil is

16 representative of the manufacturer's output.

17 MR. DOPPEL: In the manufacturing process,

18 there's a thing called "shift change," and many things

19 happen.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, we could go on and on and

21 on. A third of them are on vacation. We could go on

22 and on and on.
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1 MR. BALLO: Well, I mean, that's my main

2 concern is that the determination is actually based on

3 what -- a unit is representative of production, and if

4 the crummy one is representative of what you're

5 actually putting out, then that has to be what the

6 determination's made on.

7 MR. STANONIK: Well, but if you had that

8 circumstance, that becomes part of -- as you were

9 saying, that becomes part of the discussion with DOE;

10 whether, in fact, this was an anomaly, or, in fact,

11 three days of bad shifts, if you will, or whatever.

12 MS. MEYERS: We all have very stringent

13 quality, you know, processes in place.

14 MR. STANONIK: Yeah, I mean, that's the other

15 -- I mean, there's -- for lack of a better word,

16 there's errors that will occur in production, and

17 there's errors that occur in purchase components, and

18 everybody --

19 MS. MEYERS: That's the big issue.

20 MR. STANONIK: Well, I know, but -- and you

21 all have processes to try and manage the quality of

22 your purchased components. You have -- you know,
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1 you're supposed to supply me with this. They're

2 supposed to check -- you check when some stuff comes --

3 and all that exists, and it exists because, in fact,

4 every once in a while, something comes through that --

5 you know, you try and aim for a hundred percent, but

6 you don't always get there.

7 MR. STEPHENS: The option here is that what

8 we're bound by is the fallacy of a small sample size.

9 Right? We're going to be doing small sample size of a

10 much larger population. So if you test one unit -- the

11 manufacturer might make 100,000 of these a year. You

12 test one unit and it's bad, then you're going to make

13 the assumption that the company makes bad products.

14 That's not necessarily true, but now you've

15 got an anchor that you're going to make your future

16 judgments on, and it's going to skew everyone's

17 interpretation and impression of that manufacturer, and

18 that's a very real thing. It's a psychologically

19 documented process, and it has very severe consequences

20 for the manufacturers. That's why we're so concerned

21 about it.

22 MR. BALLO: Well, I appreciate that, but, I
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1 mean, this -- to be clear, this process is separate

2 from the DOE enforcement process, which does require, I

3 think, a larger sample size than just one, so this

4 testing is just calling into question your AEDM, not

5 necessarily your ability to meet the standard.

6 MR. AMRANE: I think eventually we'll have to

7 define what it is or

8 MALE SPEAKER: I don't know.

9 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know. We'll see.

10 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with

11 Cleaver- Brooks. It seems to me that there's such a

12 broad spectrum of products that are being covered under

13 this that it's really hard to talk about them all under

14 the same umbrella. Speaking for the products that we

15 manufacture, virtually every unit that goes out goes

16 through a commissioning process when it's started up,

17 and there's a debugging process involved in that.

18 So if we find that there's some deficiency,

19 whether it's damage during shipment or whatever, we

20 correct that before it's turned over to the customer.

21 I'm thinking that the same sort of process would -- for

22 large equipment like we make -- would have to be
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1 applied when DOE does its testing.

2 I mean, there has to be a commissioning and a

3 debugging and an ability of a manufacturer, if there's

4 an identifiable defective component or damage or

5 whatever, to correct that before you make your final

6 judgment on whether or not that passed as far as a

7 deficiency test.

8 MS. BARHYDT: So on those products, we had

9 discussed having the manufacturer present for the test

10 so that those normal processes can be followed.

11 MR. MOLVIE: Right.

12 MR. EISNER: It's getting to one o'clock. Do

13 we want to talk more? Do we want to vote and see where

14 people are? Do we want to wait and come back after

15 lunch, after you've had a chance to think about it?

16 MR. DOPPEL: I think an opportunity to

17 discuss this over lunch would be good, and then come

18 back.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: What was that word -- just --

20 Bob was out of the room, and I just was trying to tell

21 him that wording we added, that Frank added. Isn't it

22 scroll down -- there we go.
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1 FEMALE SPEAKER: Do you want me to zoom in?

2 MR. WHITWELL: The triple asterisks?

3 FEMALE SPEAKER: Can you see it, or

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

5 MR. WHITWELL: No, I can see it. Okay. And

6 so I see the table again, so we're back to --

7 MR. EISNER: I think that we're eliminating

8 the second column.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

10 MR. EISNER: All right. Would people prefer

11 to take a break for lunch? Kind of a sense of where

12 you are, or you want to try to wrap this up?

13 MR. SACHS: Why don't we take a break for

14 lunch and get together in the morning?

15 MR. EISNER: All right. Why don't we break

16 for lunch, and everybody can think about it a little

17 more clearly? Remember --

18 MALE SPEAKER: Forty-five or an hour?

19 MR. EISNER: Be back at two.

20 (Whereupon, a lunch break was taken.)

21 MR. EISNER: If I could have everybody's

22 attention, I'd like to get started. You guys have had
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1 an hour.

2 Any comments, any questions, suggestions on

3 this language up on the screen? Anything you want to

4 talk about a little more? I'd particularly encourage

5 you to think of language that would address some of the

6 concerns you have been raising. Does this mean

7 everybody is happy with it?

8 MR. AMRANE: Maybe you have a question you

9 want to raise about the --

10 MR. WHITWELL: It's not related to this

11 language specifically, but I mean, I guess the question

12 I would have is, should there be a provision for

13 somebody -- if we scroll up. If you get to that last

14 threshold, is there a way for somebody to get their

15 AEDM back or be able to use the AEDM again? Or do they

16 have to wait for two years to be up, or what?

17 MR. EISNER: Talking about the last line, the

18 --

19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. If you get to eight,

20 should there be a way for somebody to recover the

21 ability to use an AEDM? One possibility could be that

22 they would have to show that they have done root cause
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1 analysis and understand what it was in their AEDM that

2 was causing them to have invalid ratings, and prove

3 that they have taken corrective action by having a

4 certain number of tests that were done, and have the

5 AEDM with it in its corrected form show that they are

6 able to accurately predict what the product is going to

7 do.

8 Because depending on how many basic models a

9 manufacturer has, it could be difficult for them --

10 let's say after they get to a point and they are

11 gradually moving down the consequences list, if what

12 the discussion this morning was, the AEDM is the AEDM

13 is the AEDM, you can modify it, but it's still the same

14 AEDM, they could get to a point where they are at that

15 level. I mean, I would hope not, but we ought to --

16 the chances are low, but maybe there should be a

17 provision.

18 MS. BARHYDT: So what were your suggestions?

19 MR. WHITWELL: They must show -- they must

20 investigate the causes for the failures and identify

21 the root cause. And maybe it's -- rather than

22 investigate a cause, they must identify the root cause
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1 for the failures. And then take whatever corrective

2 action is required to eliminate the root cause, and

3 then have certain -- some number, is it five tests

4 perhaps, that then would be compared to the new AEDM to

5 substantiate it.

6 And I assume that they then would have to

7 review that with DOE. You know, I know initially there

8 is no requirement for approval of the AEDM, but at this

9 point maybe there should be; right?

10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI.

11 Perhaps not to authorize the AEDM, but to review with

12 DOE that the steps that are outlined here in fact do

13 address the root cause.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

15 MR. MYERS: Should that X number of tests be

16 done by -- under the control of a third party?

17 MR. WHITWELL: I think that manufacturers'

18 test data could be okay. That would be my thought.

19 MR. MYERS: Given the severity of somebody

20 who has greater than eight, which we all agree is, how

21 in the world could that happen, but if it does, if

22 you've got a bad player that gets to that point --
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

2 MR. MYERS: -- then I would suggest that X be

3 replaced by something like six, four by the

4 manufacturer and two by -- controlled by a third party.

5 MR. WHITWELL: I would be fine with that.

6 MR. MYERS: We don't want to let them back in

7 the game of working up to eight again based on --

8 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

9 MR. MYERS: -- a change to this step.

10 MR. EISNER: Do you want to add that to X?

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

12 MR. STEPHENS: I think I may be confusing the

13 situation, but could you provide the definition of the

14 validation classes again?

15 MS. BARHYDT: So the validation classes we

16 defined for each specific type of product, so just one

17 second. Just let me switch that. Which product do you

18 want to look at?

19 MR. STEPHENS: Do we have just a general

20 definition of --

21 MS. BARHYDT: No. It's specific words for

22 each product.
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1 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. So all gas-fired

2 furnaces would be a validation class.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

4 MR. MYERS: Unless you had two AEDMs, and

5 then it would be -- it would still be one validation

6 class, but you would have had to have done a test.

7 MR. STEPHENS: Initiating AEDM, multiple

8 product classes, that number of --

9 MR. EISNER: Any comments on this?

10 MS. BARHYDT: I think I have several

11 different thoughts. One is that manufacturers do have

12 a lot of flexibility in how they group models for a

13 basic model. And so it would force a manufacturer to

14 compress their ratings until they had done additional

15 testing, but it doesn't mean that they would not be

16 able to offer a lot of their products for sale. They

17 would just have to test the least efficient and then

18 group -- potentially group more models into the same

19 basic model and rate them all low.

20 So from my perspective, that would be the

21 consequence would be they would be forced to

22 significantly downrate, except to the extent that they
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1 had actual test data.

2 MR. WHITWELL: But our basic model group

3 definitions that we have say that each different

4 capacity size is a different basic model, right?

5 MS. BARHYDT: So for the HVAC, where you all

6 put in a lot more specific --

7 MR. WHITWELL: Right. In that one capacity

8 class there, or that validation class, it's from six

9 ton up to 63 ton, and could include cooling, heat pump

10 splits, single package. So there could be a whole lot

11 of products in that class, which means that --

12 MS. BARHYDT: Right. I see what you're

13 saying.

14 MR. WHITWELL: -- someone would have to test

15 a lot of basic models.

16 MS. BARHYDT: A whole lot of things. Okay.

17 And then the -- I think when you talk about for the

18 failures, you are basically saying why -- is the cause

19 of the AEDM generating the wrong prediction?

20 MR. WHITWELL: It could be -- for example, it

21 could be the basic thermodynamic model. There was a

22 problem with that. You need to understand, okay, I was
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1 accounting for maldistribution of the airflow over the

2 coil, for example, could be something that -- an

3 example of what they might find. Or it could be

4 related to some option that is not exempted from -- or

5 set of options that is not exempted from the basic

6 model definition.

7 So, you know, understand what was it that --

8 where was the model incorrect, what was causing the

9 error in the model.

10 MS. BARHYDT: I think the six tests sounds

11 okay to me, except for the fact that when you are

12 talking about the AEDM, it's usually spanning a lot of

13 different validation classes. I think --

14 MR. WHITWELL: So six tests for a validation

15 class is what you're thinking?

16 MS. BARHYDT: That's what I'm thinking. The

17 hurdle should be significantly higher to get back the

18 AEDM privileges.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I was just thinking

20 about it on one validation class. But, yeah, if it

21 does span several, then --

22 MR. SACHS: What we're talking about now is
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1 really we have found a bad actor.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

4 MS. BARHYDT: And what do they have to do to

5 get back in --

6 MR. SACHS: Get their voting rights back.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

8 MR. WHITWELL: And hopefully this process, if

9 they ever got here, they would come out of it as a

10 better actor, right, because it's going to force them

11 to take some significant action to improve the ability

12 to predict -- to model their products.

13 MR. MYERS: When I suggested this, I used a

14 word -- it may not have been verified -- but where you

15 say "performed by," I would say "verified by," because

16 there is equipment that can't be tested by the third

17 party lab but that can be verified by the third party

18 lab.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Maybe just put a

20 parenthetical on that, that basically all of that

21 discussion we had before about third party labs, if we

22 applied that here, so if it's something that can't be
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1 tested in a third party lab, so all of that discussion

2 that we have in this document earlier --

3 MR. MYERS: That was -- a lot of that

4 discussion was because those tests were directly under

5 the control of DOE, and you didn't want anybody there

6 unless you were there, and that sort of thing. Here we

7 are really just saying that the third party has to be

8 responsible for it. If that's done in a manufacturer's

9 lab, the third party is still responsible for that. So

10 it's not one where you have to be involved; you just

11 have to --

12 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

13 MR. MYERS: -- make sure that all of this was

14 done.

15 MS. BARHYDT: All I'm saying is that, to the

16 extent that it can be performed by a third party lab, I

17 think that is what we would be looking for.

18 MR. MYERS: I would withdraw my

19 recommendation for six tests and third party

20 verification, then, because that -- you just upped the

21 cost. When it --

22 MS. BARHYDT: I agreed.
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1 MR. MYERS: Well, how far do we go? Now we

2 are being punitive to the max, because if it's DOE's

3 budget, I hate it because that's a lot of money that I

4 think is unnecessary.

5 Going back to the discussion we had before, a

6 burden that DOE is putting on itself when it is taking

7 its money out of its pocket could be more effectively

8 spent by verifying it where all of us do, which is in

9 this kind of equipment, in our own labs, with third

10 party verification. Here six tests for each product

11 class that we -- validation class, that is a tremendous

12 amount of testing.

13 MR. WHITWELL: But it is only for validation

14 classes that are covered by the AEDM that was found to

15 be bad, right?

16 MR. MYERS: It could be one, but it could

17 also be four or five. We don't know how far the

18 manufacturer broke this out.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Right. But keep in mind that

20 this action here is to allow the manufacturer to get

21 back -- get their product line back out to the market

22 and, as an alternative, to test them two -- two units
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1 for a basic model, which could be even more costly than

2 having to test six units, two of which are verified by

3 an independent third party lab.

4 MR. MYERS: Yeah. And I'm fine with

5 verifying what --

6 MR. WHITWELL: Or even tested by a third

7 party lab.

8 MR. MYERS: -- propose it's tested by a third

9 party lab. Think about some of the larger equipment

10 that we've got. You're talking transportation cost,

11 you're talking -- I mean, it gets draconian pretty

12 quickly when what we are really trying to do is to make

13 sure that you are not just making the same mistakes

14 yourself, just like you did before when you didn't have

15 to do this.

16 You want to have a third party that is an

17 expert in this kind of testing to verify. And if they

18 are willing to verify in your lab, I mean, I would even

19 be okay with saying that the lab that the verification

20 lab uses has to be 60-025.

21 MR. SACHS: Bob, I think --

22 MR. MYERS: That is not to say that it has to
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1 be done in a third party lab.

2 MR. SACHS: -- you and Frank are both getting

3 toward a similar point, that we've got too many classes

4 here for a single word, whether it's verify or perform.

5 It's got to be product class-specific or capacity6 specific. Wordsmith it, please.

7 MS. BARHYDT: We can do that.

8 MR. SACHS: And I think that would --

9 MR. MYERS: Well, I just don't want to end up

10 having to take this extremely large piece of equipment

11 that someone says in their lab they can test and have

12 to go through the transportation. Our stuff is built

13 to work, so when we run that test, we basically are

14 going to have to wait until somebody places an order

15 for it. We can't afford to build the equipment unless

16 somebody else is paying for the equipment to be built.

17 MR. SACHS: But you would be comfortable with

18 the language we did earlier?

19

20

21 MR. MYERS: No, I would not. That's what I'm

22 saying.
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1 MR. SACHS: You would not. Okay.

2 MR. MYERS: That's fine when DOE is wanting

3 to make sure that they are getting everything that they

4 want and they are paying. But here, to take a

5 customer's piece of equipment and haul it off

6 somewhere, run the test on it, and then try and bring

7 it back and remanufacture it, we need to have the

8 option of having a third party.

9 But just like we do in all of our programs,

10 have a third party come into our lab and verify the

11 efficiency that is provided, and then that becomes one

12 of the -- or two of the six, four in our lab and two

13 that they do.

14 MR. SACHS: Do we need specific wording on

15 what kind of equipment would qualify for this treatment

16 as opposed to stuff which you put in a UPS box? I'm

17 being facetious.

18 MR. STEM: I think that's too broad.

19 MR. MYERS: This is all commercial equipment.

20 MR. EISNER: This gives more flexibility to

21 what everybody seems to acknowledge as the bad guy. It

22 gives DOE, the decision-making authority, completely up
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1 to them, why not give DOE the discretion and use its

2 authority to decide whether lesser requirements are

3 appropriate and justified.

4 So you would say "two of which must be

5 verified by," et cetera, et cetera, and then, "DOE

6 authorization is required to resume use of the AEDM.

7 And, in its discretion, it may" -- "lessen" isn't quite

8 the right word, but lessen the requirements to get the

9 AEDM.

10 MS. BARHYDT: You would change "verified"

11 back to "performed," and then, "DOE would have the

12 authorization to." DOE could reduce that in its

13 discretion, because "performed" is the higher standard.

14 MR. EISNER: So if they make the case, for

15 whatever circumstance, to lessen them for some of the

16 reasons you point out, they can grant it. Right now,

17 the way this is written, they have the authority.

18 Their approval is required. You are giving them the

19 discretion to lessen the requirements. Does that take

20 care of your concern?

21 MR. MYERS: If it said build to order is

22 verified and other products are performed, then I would
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1 be okay with that.

2 MR. EISNER: Well, you're not trying to put

3 all of the circumstances under which it could be

4 lowered into this document. I'm wondering whether that

5 would just open it up to a lot of other exceptions.

6 Again, we are talking about a bad actor. How much

7 flexibility do you want to give a bad actor? Eight in,

8 what is it, a two- year period.

9 Other comments, thoughts?

10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff. I've got several

11 questions about this. Are we saying -- I just want to

12 make sure I understand this correctly -- that if we

13 conduct these tests after you've lost the right to --

14 the privilege to do an AEDM, that once you have

15 completed these steps, regardless of where you are in

16 the 24-month cycle, you immediately get to use AEDMs

17 again?

18 MS. BARHYDT: Say that one more time? Sorry.

19 MR. KLEISS: That the -- if you conduct these

20 additional tests to reconfirm your AEDM, that even

21 though you have lost privileges based on the number of

22 failed tests and -- or that's a 24-month cycle, if we
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1 conduct this and get it done in six weeks into our 24-

2 month period, that we could be allowed to use AEDMs

3 again? Or do we have to wait for the 24-month period

4 to expire?

5 MR. STANONIK: This will be a new AEDM.

6 There is no way of -- if you get to this point, if you

7 get to this level of punitive measure, you are

8 developing a new AEDM. You haven't tinkered with the

9 other one. You had three chances or two chances to

10 tinker.

11 If you get to this stage, you are developing

12 a new AEDM. So if you satisfy all of this, and you've

13 gotten to this point, then why shouldn't you be allowed

14 to use the new AEDM that was developed with a lot more

15 rigor than your old one.

16 MR. KLEISS: I'm not arguing against it; I

17 just wanted to make sure that we're clear on what it

18 is.

19 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP.

20 Wouldn't this case, in effect, be the DOE pre-approving

21 the use of a manufacturer's AEDM?

22 MS. BARHYDT: We would be approving the use
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1 of it. We would not be approving the content of it or

2 -- I mean, we are not going to be looking -- we are

3 still not going to be looking at the model itself. We

4 are not going to be checking it ourselves. This is --

5 you have jumped through a few additional hoops, but we

6 are still not going to be sitting there doing an

7 engineering analysis on your model.

8 MR. KLEISS: But does this require DOE

9 approval for it to start being used?

10 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh. Yeah, it does. Obtain

11 DOE authorization to resume use of AEDM.

12 MR. KLEISS: Okay.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Basically, when you hit the

14 "greater than or equal to eight," you are going to get

15 a letter saying you are no longer allowed to use an

16 AEDM. Basically, we just removed all of your

17 certifications that we have on file for that AEDM. And

18 until you do something, whether it's testing and

19 certifying based on testing, or you jump through all of

20 the hoops to get your authority to use an AEDM back,

21 those are knocked off the market.

22 MR. KLEISS: One last question or
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1 clarification. Do we need to specify the "and perform

2 six additional tests, six new tests"? Or can existing

3 test data be used?

4 MR. EISNER: Any additional comments? Any

5 questions?

6 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. I have a concern

7 about the last sentence, "DOE may, at its discretion,

8 reduce or waive" -- that seems awfully wrong to me. I

9 was --

10 MS. BARHYDT: I was trying to not wordsmith

11 it to death, but to give the ability -- I mean, the

12 other thing I'm thinking of is, you know, let's say

13 that the AEDM is applied to five different validation

14 classes. But, in reality, everything we tested came

15 from one of the validation classes. And we do a couple

16 of extra checks of a couple of other validation classes

17 when they say, "Oh, no, the AEDM problems really truly

18 are limited to this validation class."

19 We go out and we test one or two things from

20 two of the other validation classes and it looks like,

21 yeah, it really is limited to that validation class.

22 That gives us some discretion to say, "Okay. We are
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1 going to hold your feet to the fire on this validation

2 class," because it really does appear to be limited to

3 that.

4 So it just gives us some flexibility to

5 really address the problem as opposed to just draconian

6 --

7 MR. BALLO: It also gives you the flexibility

8 to say, you know, that this particular manufacturer is

9 really a good guy, and we are just going to let them --

10 MS. BARHYDT: Oh. We don't ever say that.

11 MR. SACHS: I was not recording at that

12 point.

13 MS. BARHYDT: I understand your concern.

14 MR. BALLO: I mean, I would rather it said

15 that DOE may, in its discretion, reduce or waive the

16 requirement for third party -- for use in a third party

17 lab.

18 MS. BARHYDT: But I mean, my hypothetical,

19 it's not related to third parties. It's related to

20 what the real issue is.

21 MR. EISNER: Would you be more satisfied if

22 it said "justification in writing"?
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1 MR. BALLO: Yes.

2 MR. EISNER: Is that all right with you? Is

3 that okay with everybody else?

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

5 MR. BALLO: You're okay with that, Laura?

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

7 MR. EISNER: Does that mean Laura has to

8 provide the justification?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, it does.

10 MR. EISNER: Any other questions on this?

11 MR. KLEISS: Yes. Jeff again. If we are

12 required to do the six new tests, but then looking at

13 the two units for basic model, how many tests are we

14 running?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Wait. Where?

16 MR. KLEISS: If you have greater than eight -

17 - greater than or equal to eight failures.

18 MS. BARHYDT: So up until the point where DOE

19 has authorized you to resume use of an AEDM, the

20 default is that rating has to be done through

21 certification testing under our normal regulations,

22 which is two units per basic model.
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1 MR. KLEISS: So you are testing basic models

2 only. So redoing the AEDM is two separate fractions.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Right.

4 MR. WHITWELL: And if you're testing the

5 basic models, you don't -- you might not want to redo

6 the AEDM, but it's an alternative to doing all of the

7 tests.

8 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Thank you.

9 MS. BARHYDT: You could say, "Short-term,

10 these are my highest-selling basic models. I'm going

11 to go ahead and I'm going to do the certification

12 testing and get these two certified while I jump

13 through the hoops to get my AEDM back." But the

14 certification testing route is still on the table.

15 MR. KLEISS: Thank you.

16 MR. EISNER: Other questions, comments? Yes,

17 in the back.

18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I just

19 want to be clear, and I'd like to just hear the words

20 from you. I think I know the answer.

21 This last clause we have here "At the DOE's

22 discretion, DOE will take into account." I'm assuming
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1 that difference in the size of the business, because

2 this may be a significant penalty to a very large

3 manufacturer, but to a small manufacturer, this could

4 be the NCAA death penalty.

5 MR. EISNER: The statute probably requires

6 that you take into account the size of the entity when

7 imposing an enforcement penalty.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

9 MR. AMRANE: This is not an enforcement,

10 though.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Hmm?

12 MR. AMRANE: This is not an enforcement.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Well, in a certain way it is.

14 I mean, it is to provide a regulatory -- access to a

15 regulatory provision as part of an enforcement

16 mechanism. I mean, the whole way you got here was

17 through an enforcement, so --

18 MR. STEPHENS: So that's a yes?

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I would say that we are

20 required by law to take it into consideration.

21 MR. EISNER: Okay. If no one has anything

22 else, I think where we stand on this issue is whether
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1 to include this chart and the rest of the AEDM package

2 to forward to ASRAC. We still have to vote on the

3 entire package. There were some changes that were

4 supposed to be made after the last meeting, and there

5 were some people who wanted to go home and think about

6 it. So is everybody ready to take a vote on this

7 chart?

8 (Several affirmative responses.)

9 MR. EISNER: Hearing no objections, does

10 anybody abstain from the vote on including this chart

11 in the report? Does anybody object to including the

12 chart in the report? So we can put this down as

13 another unanimous part of the chart, of the package.

14 Now, let's go through the package.

15 MR. JOHNSON: So how do we get a copy --

16 excuse me. Tom Johnson. How do we get a copy of this?

17 MR. EISNER: I think when we voted on it we

18 can then provide -- I guess you could email copies to

19 people right away, if you want. And we can --

20 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, please. Thank you.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Or put it on the SharePoint or

22 something for us to have or --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Have you gotten your

2 SharePoint? Yes?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Uh-huh.

4 MR. EISNER: Well, in the interim, will email

5 suffice?

6 MR. JOHNSON: Sure.

7 MR. EISNER: Does somebody from DOE want to

8 walk through the edits that were made to the document?

9 MS. BARHYDT: I thought we voted last time on

10 everything except for this.

11 MR. EISNER: Except for this, but there were

12 some issues that were still raised, and I think some

13 language that had to be added and maybe it wasn't.

14 MS. MEYERS: He's talking about the

15 definition of "basic model."

16 MR. EISNER: But we sent around a version

17 that had this marked up redline version. I mean, we

18 can just go through this section by section or people -

19 - I know four or five people sent in email comments or

20 questions.

21 Some people raised some comments with Ashley

22 after the last meeting. Do people want me to pull out
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1 the names and identify yourselves? Or do you just want

2 to raise those issues separately now and talk about

3 them? And the names -- I know there were emails from

4 Jeff, Phillip, Tom, and Harvey. And I think a couple -

5 -

6 MR. JOHNSON: As far as I'm concerned, I got

7 mine answered.

8 MR. EISNER: Okay.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. Those were on basic

10 model.

11 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I looked through that.

12 That's the only one I am not seeing in the ASRAC box.

13 MR. EISNER: Okay. And those were questions

14 also that were asked after the meeting that she sent?

15 Okay.

16 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I think they were all

17 addressed.

18 MR. EISNER: All right. Does anybody have

19 remaining questions on this, they want to talk about

20 any of the provisions that were troubling them at the

21 last meeting? Some of you talked about wanting to go

22 back and talk to others in the group you were
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1 representing.

2 MS. BARHYDT: I thought it was also basic

3 model.

4 MR. EISNER: It was all still basic model?

5 MS. BARHYDT: Basic model, yeah.

6 MR. EISNER: So we need a vote.

7 MR. SACHS: Are we comfortable about water

8 source issues basically not being on the table?

9 MALE SPEAKER: Well, I mean, the answer was

10 that it doesn't include geothermal.

11 MR. SACHS: It doesn't.

12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Are we ready to vote on

13 this document as a whole, then, with the last chart we

14 just discussed added to it? Does anybody want to

15 abstain from voting on this report going to ASRAC?

16 Does anybody object to sending this report to ASRAC

17 reflecting unanimous agreement? In one place, I

18 believe it notes there was an abstention on one of the

19 particular issues. Does anybody object to sending it up

20 in that way?

21 MR. BAUMAN: I'm not objecting; I just have a

22 point for clarification. That my understanding of the
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1 ground rules is that, as we agree to something around

2 the table and it's unanimous, we do not have -- when it

3 goes back to a NOPR, my understanding was we have

4 agreed to we are not going to basically provide

5 negative comments about something we have agreed to

6 here at the table.

7 MR. EISNER: DOE will never talk to you again

8 if you object.

9 MR. BAUMAN: I just want to make sure we're

10 all clear that that's what -- we are agreeing to all,

11 because I think the comment was made earlier that we

12 could always object in the NOPR, but that's not really

13 --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, exactly. John was making

15 that comment, "Well, it's going to go to NOPR, and you

16 guys can all make comments again in the NOPR."

17 MR. BAUMAN: And so if you -- I'll say if you

18 want to reserve your option to make it potentially

19 negative, you have the right to vote no. And up to two

20 no's -- something can still pass with two no's, but

21 that gives you the option if you are not sure about

22 something.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Are you saying you can't come

2 back in the NOPR and --

3 MR. EISNER: I think we eliminated --

4 MS. BARHYDT: I can't remember if it was in

5 and then out.

6 MR. EISNER: I thought it was taken out also.

7 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. If I'm incorrect, I

8 apologize.

9 MR. EISNER: I think the only thing that was

10 left in was, "Each party, except individuals that have

11 previously expressed dissenting views on the issues

12 challenged, agrees not to take a position materially

13 inconsistent with the recommendation in court, or in

14 any other forum, to the extent that the final

15 recommendation and its preamble have the same substance

16 and effect as the term sheet for a period of time."

17 And I think there was a provision in there

18 from an earlier agreement that DOE had with another

19 group that they would not comment negatively on the

20 NPRM that was taken out of here. Does anybody remember

21 differently?

22 MALE SPEAKER: Neil, could you speak up,
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1 please?

2 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry. My understanding is

3 that there is an agreement not to challenge or take a

4 position inconsistent with the recommendation in court

5 or any other forum, but that there was a provision in

6 the draft that was provided to the group that was used

7 by a former reg neg committee in DOE where they had

8 language in there saying, "You will not comment

9 negatively on the

10 NPRM."

11 My recollection is that provision was taken

12 out. I'm asking if anybody disagrees. Like I think I -

13 -

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. But are you saying that

15 -- I mean, if you were to comment that it's not

16 consistent with these agreements in a public -- in a

17 NOPR or something like that --

18 MR. EISNER: No. See, Jill, there was a

19 specific provision, "No negative comments, each party

20 agrees not to file negative comments on the proposed

21 standard, or its preamble, to the extent they have the

22 same substance and effect as the term sheet."
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1 And then there was something on no adverse

2 action in support, and then there was a third provision

3 on no challenge.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

5 MR. EISNER: And that was the one that was

6 left in; the other two were taken out.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, okay. From that

8 transformer one. All right.

9 MR. EISNER: So with that understanding,

10 anything else?

11 (No response)

12 So does anybody object to the report, with the chart

13 added to it, going to ASRAC as a recommendation from

14 this Subcommittee?

15 (No response.)

16 Okay. Very good. I think we now can go on to the next

17 issue in the PowerPoint slides. Seventy-some- odd

18 pages I think.

19 MS. BARHYDT: We are now on Slide 4.

20 MR. EISNER: I think we are up to basic --

21 huh?

22 MS. BARHYDT: We're on Slide 4.
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1 MR. EISNER: Slide 4. Basic model; right?

2 MS. BARHYDT: So the first few slides are

3 just mainly for reference about the basic model

4 definitions that people had put forward for their

5 various product types. At the last meeting -- well,

6 let's hold off until we have actually talked about some

7 of the other things.

8 Does anyone have anything to add or other

9 thoughts on those definitions? Just based on the

10 actual -- just the plain wording.

11 MR. EISNER: You're talking starting on page

12 4? The only minor thing I would, by the way, note is

13 most of the definitions use the word "that" instead of

14 "which." The first few use "which" and it should be

15 "that."

16 MR. AMRANE: I guess we will have definitions

17 for PTAGs, we will have definition for SPVUs, we will

18 have --

19 MS. BARHYDT: That are different than these?

20 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

22 MR. AMRANE: And definitions for --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

2 MR. STANONIK: There's a -- well, it's

3 somewhat minor but it needs to be either universally

4 established or be consistent, and in -- okay. In

5 commercial warm air furnaces, okay, it doesn't have

6 that phrase "manufactured by one manufacturer." All

7 right?

8 Now, I would say that certainly the

9 assumption is that these are basic models offered by a

10 manufacturer. But if I were to just read those words --

11 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

12 MR. STANONIK: -- I've created the

13 possibility that my basic model is a Rheem, Trane,

14 Lennox, Carrier, run through the list.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

16 MR. STANONIK: And I could find a basic model

17 that would fit that definition without -- so I guess

18 the question is, do we either someplace establish that

19 clearly we are only talking about products made by one

20 manufacturer, or do we make sure that phrase is in

21 every definition.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Is everyone okay with us just
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1 adding that "manufactured by one manufacturer" language

2 to all of the basic model definitions?

3 MR. STANONIK: Yes.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

6 MR. EISNER: Are we trying to cover all

7 definitions in one fell swoop, or do we want to go

8 through each individually or --

9 MS. BARHYDT: To the extent possible.

10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Does anybody have any

11 problems? I think the definitions came from around the

12 table. Does anybody have a problem with any of the

13 basic definitions?

14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. I

15 just want to ask Frank Stanonik and some of the other

16 folks, I seem to remember in working with some of the

17 program requirements for AHRI that there was an

18 allowance for one manufacturer to take a product design

19 and provide it to another manufacturer with no changes,

20 such that they did not have to go back through the LEED

21 certification.

22 MR. STANONIK: Well, yeah. But it's
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1 essentially considered a brand, then.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

3 MR. AMRANE: Private brand.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Private brand.

5 MR. MYERS: But this was a little different.

6 Private brand is the same manufacturer making them all,

7 but they put somebody else's name on it and they just

8 sell it.

9 MR. STANONIK: Right.

10 MR. MYERS: This was a situation where a

11 manufacturer owned the product and could manufacturer

12 it, and he gave the rights to a -- or sold or gave to

13 another manufacturer the opportunity to build that

14 exact same piece of equipment. And they did not have

15 to go -- the gist of it is they did not have to go back

16 through reverification.

17 They had to -- they still had to go through

18 the follow-up, you know, the annual testing and all as

19 a separate manufacturer, but they didn't have to go

20 through the verification -- the front end testing,

21 because that was already done by the original

22 manufacturer, so it didn't have to be repeated by the
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1 second manufacturer.

2 MR. WHITWELL: So in a case like that --

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Let's say you wanted an

4 exclusive license design?

5 MR. WHITWELL: In a case like that, who would

6 maintain the engineering documentation on the design?

7 MR. MYERS: They were duplicated and provided

8 to the second manufacturer.

9 MR. WHITWELL: But then, would the second

10 manufacturer perhaps modify that design over time, or

11 would he always get updates from the first

12 manufacturer?

13 MR. MYERS: This was a one-time transfer.

14 Once that was done, then it is another manufacturer --

15 they have to do all of their annual testing. If they

16 make changes, they have to go through the normal

17 process. But the initial work, since it was

18 transferring over as the identical piece of equipment,

19 they didn't have to do the initial verification.

20 MR. WHITWELL: But the second manufacturer

21 could make changes to it, so I would say --

22 MR. MYERS: But not without going through the
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1 normal program requirements.

2 MR. WHITWELL: So it becomes -- it could be a

3 separate basic model by the second -- for the second

4 manufacturer. Different basic model.

5 MR. MYERS: But then it is just their coming

6 out with a new basic model, no different than the

7 original manufacturer who might diverge. This was just

8 the point of transfer for the identical product, but

9 not the identical manufacturer.

10 MS. BARHYDT: I can tell you we have seen

11 this kind of scenario with other manufacturers. And

12 the first manufacturer didn't want anything to do with

13 the stuff coming off the other manufacturer's line,

14 because they didn't want to accept liability if the

15 second manufacturer's line wasn't building to spec.

16 And so they insisted on the second manufacturer

17 certifying it separately as their own manufactured

18 product.

19 MR. STANONIK: And I think, I mean, that kind

20 of makes sense. Even if the initial rating of the

21 product was testing done by Manufacturer A, right,

22 Manufacturer B, who is now building the same design in
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1 their facility I think would still list it as a basic

2 model, his basic model, that company's basic model.

3 And if it need be, they still have --

4 assuming whatever the contractual agreement is -- they

5 still could fall back on the original testing of

6 Manufacturer A because he had a rating that is

7 supported by this testing or this AEDM, or whatever.

8 But as we all said, from there on, they are

9 responsible for subsequent maintaining that rating,

10 right? But I think it still ends up being Company B's

11 basic model, you know. I mean, it fits.

12 MR. MYERS: That part I agree. This was just

13 -- this case of where one manufacturer is selling the

14 package to another manufacturer. In fact, the example

15 that was used in the Compliance Committee was it wasn't

16 even both of them manufacturing.

17 It was one company didn't want to build it

18 anymore, so they sold it lock, stock, and barrel,

19 tooling and everything, through Manufacturer B, but

20 Manufacturer B didn't want to have to retest everything

21 in order to get into the program. And there was

22 agreement, yeah, if it's the identical product, they
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1 don't have to re-verify. Change anything and you are --

2 MR. STANONIK: Right.

3 MR. MYERS: -- it's a new model.

4 MR. EISNER: All right. As we talk about

5 these definitions, I notice that some of them still

6 have blanks, X's where numbers need to be. That's one

7 of the reasons we need to go through all of them, or am

8 I missing something?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: We can't hear you, Neil.

10 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry. Some of the

11 definitions that are up here have blanks in them or

12 they have X's in them. And that's why I'm wondering

13 whether we need to go through each one, even if it's

14 quickly.

15 MR. SACHS: I'm not sure we came to a

16 resolution on this exclusive license thing.

17 MS. BARHYDT: The second manufacturer is

18 still a manufacturer, and they certify it as their own

19 basic model.

20 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

21 MR. EISNER: Okay.

22 MS. BARHYDT: You wanted to talk about the
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1 PTACA (ph)?

2 MR. AMRANE: Right. But maybe we should

3 start with the other products.

4 MS. BARHYDT: You want to do the other

5 products first and then come back to --

6 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Because it's going to be

7 similar to -- yes, so maybe the large commercial --

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 MR. AMRANE: -- would be probably the one to

10 discuss, and then --

11 MR. NESHAN: Can we do CRE, please?

12 MR. AMRANE: If you want to do CRE, we can do

13 CRE.

14 MR. NESHAN: This is Deshawn. I have a

15 question. When you're talking about basic model, we

16 are manufacturing an exact model display case, three

17 foot long, four foot long, six foot long, six and a

18 half, eight, ten, or twelve. To us it's that same

19 model. But according to this, it cannot be one model

20 because the -- what is happening, the consumption is

21 different. So you are going to tell me that one model

22 has eight different models?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: So if you have an AEDM, you can

2 rate them all differently and not have to do additional

3 testing. But the way the test procedure and the

4 standards are currently set up, we can't combine those

5 different sizes into one basic model. And that is a

6 function of the current regulations for that product.

7 MR. AMRANE: Why? I mean, I don't --

8 MR. NESHAN: Excuse me?

9 MR. AMRANE: No, no. I don't think that's --

10 MR. NESHAN: I thought that's what we are

11 discussing here, to come up to an understanding. You

12 are telling me that is already said and done.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So, well -- so the way it is

14 set up right now, if you -- because the consumption is

15 going to be different for each one, and the consumption

16 is not a -- the consumption isn't some number of units

17 of energy per volume. I know that's how you measure it

18 and how you end up calculating it, but that is not the

19 way the standard is written.

20 MR. NESHAN: Excuse me. Energy efficient

21 standard, the way it is defined is per linear foot or

22 per opening, per square foot of opening. It isn't the
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1 -- what you have set it. It's per TDA. That is total

2 display area.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Total display area; right.

4 MR. NESHAN: Which it really covers the

5 different sizes. One size -- for one point of view,

6 you are saying use it on a linear basis because that

7 defines. Now here you are saying, no, you can't use it.

8 It doesn't make sense.

9 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. I think in this

10 particular case I would agree that it shouldn't matter

11 --

12 MS. BARHYDT: It shouldn't matter.

13 MR. AMRANE: -- as far as basic model

14 definition, whether you have, you know, like you said,

15 you know, four feet at -- you know, I don't think it

16 should matter. It's just the same as, you know, for

17 other products when you group, you are not -- well, at

18 least the definitions that we are proposing are not

19 necessarily saying that you have to have the same

20 energy efficiency.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So you would rate it in terms

22 of a function of the total display area. You would not
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1 rate it in terms of the consumption of the unit.

2 MR. NESHAN: That's how we have to define it

3 is TDA. I mean, energy consumption per linear foot per

4 hour.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Right. I know that's how you

6 calculate the standard.

7 MR. NESHAN: But that's how we have to report

8 as well.

9 MS. BARHYDT: To AHRI.

10 MR. NESHAN: AHRI. And then in the DOE, the

11 formula that is given is based on TDA --

12 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

13 MR. NESHAN: -- or volume depending on --

14 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

15 MR. NESHAN: So basically, that eliminates

16 how long or how tall or -- you know, how long this

17 thing is. So if that is allowed, then under this

18 definition it should also be allowed.

19 MR. SHEBIK: Laura, I think when you and I

20 were talking before, you said that it would apply to

21 the AEDM, not the basic model; right? So the practice

22 of the AEDM would take into consideration the linear --
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1 the energy consumption per foot would be your AEDM.

2 Your basic model would be something totally different.

3 It's a different --

4 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. So the AEDM is different

5 than the basic model, and the AEDM addresses it -- I'm

6 not sure if your question is about the testing burden

7 if you don't use an AEDM.

8 MR. NESHAN: Even if I'm using AEDM, it's

9 because that's -- it's a basic model. I have to have

10 AEDM for that basic model. To establish --

11 MS. BARHYDT: No. You can use one AEDM for a

12 whole lot of different basic models.

13 MR. AMRANE: That's true.

14 MR. STANONIK: But the whole point --

15 MR. NESHAN: But I can't, because I will be

16 tested. You are telling me these are different.

17 MS. BARHYDT: No. No. The requirement for

18 an AEDM is that you have two tests for each validation

19 class, and the validation classes for CREs, for --

20 MR. NESHAN: It was two per basic model.

21 MS. BARHYDT: No, it's not two per basic

22 model. It's two per validation class.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: It's two per basic model if

2 you don't have the AEDM.

3 MS. BARHYDT: If you don't have an AEDM.

4 Once you have an AEDM, the whole point of an AEDM is to

5 reduce how much testing you have to do. The whole idea

6 of the AEDM is that you no longer have all of those

7 testing requirements per basic model.

8 MR. NESHAN: Right. But I'm talking -- look

9 at the basic model. You are defining what the basic

10 model is here.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

12 MR. NESHAN: And that is the objection, to

13 the basic model definition.

14 MR. RIVEST: Just a question. Excuse me.

15 When you report your model numbers in your catalogues,

16 are they -- do you have a different model number by

17 length or --

18 MR. NESHAN: No, no.

19 MR. RIVEST: -- it is always per linear foot?

20 MR. NESHAN: No. It's not -- we say Model A,

21 could be two foot, could be 14-foot long. Okay?

22 That's how they come.
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1 This is different like -- as defined in DOE,

2 you know, it says open display cases vertical, or

3 somewhat vertical. That is how --

4 MR. RIVEST: But your model number would just

5 refer to the cross-section, if you will.

6 MR. NESHAN: Yeah. Correct.

7 MR. RIVEST: Okay. That's it. I never ran

8 into that, but it seems permissible to me.

9 MS. BARHYDT: I've seen it before.

10 MR. RIVEST: So a basic model would have to

11 be rewritten such that it says "per unit" something,

12 per unit of volume or per unit of --

13 MR. NESHAN: The efficiency is the same, but

14 the consumption is going to be different.

15 MR. RIVEST: So it would say "having the same

16 primary energy source, essentially identical

17 electrical, physical, and" --

18 MR. NESHAN: They are not going to have

19 identical electrical, because a two-foot case has one

20 fan, a four-foot case has two fans, and so on.

21 MR. RIVEST: Right. But on a per unit basis

22 --
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1 MR. SHEBIK: Per linear foot.

2 MR. RIVEST: -- per linear foot --

3 MR. NESHAN: Per linear foot, yeah.

4 MR. RIVEST: -- it works out; right?

5 MR. MARANTAN: I have a question just to

6 clarify. Are you concerned that the energy consumption

7 would be different per linear foot or per --

8 MR. NESHAN: No, no, no, no, no. I'm not

9 talking about the per linear foot. This one is talking

10 about energy consumption.

11 MR. MARANTAN: Energy consumption, period.

12 Okay. Well, maybe what would help is if we thought

13 about the standard for commercial refrigeration. It is

14 already normalized to whatever it is that is

15 applicable, total display area or refrigerated volume.

16 And so I think that implies that it is part of --

17 MR. NESHAN: No, no. It doesn't imply -- I

18 mean, if you are implying here, about six years from

19 now someone else is going to read it different.

20 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. So --

21 MR. WHITWELL: I would suggest taking out the

22 words "affect energy consumption, water consumption, or
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1 water efficiency" here because they -- my understanding

2 is the metric is energy efficiency, efficiency per

3 linear foot. So that is the only one that applies

4 here.

5 MR. AMRANE: Consumption.

6 MS. BARHYDT: It's a consumption standard.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So energy consumption.

8 So take out energy efficiency, you know, the things

9 that don't apply. I mean, this was like a -- that was

10 taken from a general --

11 MR. AMRANE: Right.

12 MR. WHITWELL: -- definition.

13 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So what about energy

14 consumption per normalization measure? There is a few

15 in play for CRE.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. So it's energy

17 consumption. So that is the metric -- that measure for

18 CRE; right?

19 MR. MARANTAN: Yes. Does that help?

20 MR. NESHAN: You can say per TDA or volume,

21 whatever, I mean, those are the two metrics.

22 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Per TDA or volume.
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1 MR. NESHAN: Or volume. Yeah.

2 MR. MARANTAN: Okay.

3 MR. NESHAN: Same thing that is in the -- in

4 a minimum energy efficiency standard.

5 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah.

6 MR. EISNER: Does that address your concern,

7 the language that was added?

8 MS. BARHYDT: Does that work?

9 MR. SACHS: The hydraulic characteristics

10 would refer to the cold water tap on the CRE?

11 MR. AMRANE: No. It's --

12 MS. BARHYDT: You can take "hydraulic" out.

13 MR. SACHS: Just trying to figure it out.

14 MS. BARHYDT: We are going to have to double

15 check that one. I remember Ashley saying something a

16 while back, and I've got to go back through my emails.

17 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

18 MR. RIVEST: So the standard is just a --

19 MR. WEBER: My only thing that I would

20 mention is if you made all of the different cabinet

21 lengths for models be able to be collapsed into one

22 basic model, then DOE would ostensibly only have one
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1 record in its database, and that would represent some

2 length. If DOE wanted to know the energy consumption

3 of each length, and had that certified, then it would

4 need a model for each length.

5 MR. RIVEST: Right. But these are scaled;

6 right?

7 MR. NESHAN: Yeah. But, I mean, that's

8 allowed for them to, you know, use a factor to multiply

9 by that number.

10 MR. RIVEST: I don't see a problem until I

11 see a problem.

12 MR. NESHAN: Yeah. Same here.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else on CRE? Go

14 ahead.

15 MR. MYERS: Just looking at the last part of

16 that sentence, it seems like when I read that

17 completely it needs one other characterization. If you

18 don't have total display area or refrigerated volume,

19 we have applicable -- "appears to only apply to those

20 two." And then, wouldn't it need to have something

21 that indicates per model or per display area or per

22 refrigerated volume?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: No. There are two different

2 kinds of standards for CRE. One is based on total

3 display area; one is based on refrigerated volume. So

4 it's whichever of those two things, as applicable. "As

5 applicable" is not referring to everything in that --

6 MR. MYERS: Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else on CRE?

8 MR. RIVEST: Just a question here. Sometimes

9 these are set up as a constant, plus the linear slope.

10 The basic model -- this implies that there is just the

11 linear fit. Could you have a case where you have two

12 different intercepts and the same slope?

13 MR. NESHAN: Same case you said? I mean,

14 sorry. To us means display cases. Say that again?

15 MR. RIVEST: Are the standards a constant

16 plus -- like mx plus b, basically. So sometimes the

17 constant may be different. This just talks about the

18 slope.

19 MR. NESHAN: For the same model, the constant

20 is the same.

21 MR. RIVEST: The constant is the same for

22 what you would consider a basic model.
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1 MR. NESHAN: The basic model. And this has

2 how it's defined, so --

3 MR. RIVEST: So it's not really per foot;

4 right? It's --

5 MR. NESHAN: Well, it's per family or per

6 category of display cases. But you cannot mix a multi7 display case, vertical display that is semi-vertical.

8 They have different formula, different relationship,

9 different constant, different model.

10 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah. Each of the standards

11 for the product classes has a different equation, and

12 each equation has a Y-intercept and a slope assigned to

13 it.

14 MR. RIVEST: But that would not give you an

15 average -- the average change.

16 MR. SACHS: Massoud, I find myself --

17 MR. RIVEST: Like the N effect.

18 MR. SACHS: I find myself confused, because

19 in Line 4 it talks about essentially identical

20 electrical, physical, and functional characteristics

21 that affect energy consumption. And as I read that, it

22 implies to me that if these are self-contained,
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1 everything from the two foot to the 14 foot would have

2 the same compressor and the same coils.

3 MR. NESHAN: No. Not self-contained.

4 Similar.

5 MR. SACHS: Pardon me?

6 MR. SHEBIK: Self-contained or remote?

7 Remote or self-contained?

8 MR. NESHAN: There are two different -- I

9 mean, the formulas that exist, there are two different

10 formulas, one for a self-contained, one for remote

11 display cases. Okay? As you said, even though we

12 might use identical fan motors, but use more of them,

13 obviously, in a longer one than a shorter one. Same

14 things with lights and other, so it's really linear in

15 that sense.

16 MR. SACHS: But it's very different than from

17 the use of the term basic model for other kinds of

18 equipment. The question again, it's easier for me to

19 think about this for self-contained, where as soon as I

20 change the compressor capacity it is no longer the same

21 basic model. It may be in the same AEDM, but it is a

22 different model.
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1 MR. NESHAN: Correct. But that -- even in

2 the self-contained, it is based on TDA.

3 MR. SACHS: So what I'm trying to say is

4 that, as I'm hearing this, Line 4 is not compatible

5 with this concept of longer units which may have the

6 same energy per total display area, but have different

7 compressors, different heat exchangers, and multiples

8 of the same fan or multiples of different fans.

9 MR. NESHAN: Okay.

10 MR. SACHS: So I think there is still a

11 fundamental distinction here between --

12 MR. NESHAN: So what? So what if they have?

13 Are you interested in efficiency or how they build and

14 what components we use in our display cases?

15 MR. SACHS: What I'm interested in is trying

16 to make sure that the definitions are self-consistent,

17 so you don't get in trouble six years from now.

18 MR. NESHAN: No, no. I understand. No, no,

19 no. We won't get into that confusion because we have

20 been doing it for God knows how many years. My concern

21 is no confusion to be here.

22 MR. SACHS: It is -- I am not worried about
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1 your confusion. I'm worried about DOE's.

2 MR. NESHAN: Yes. I'm more concerned about

3 DOE's; right.

4 MR. SACHS: So if it's not consistent with

5 their expectations, we need to think about different --

6 MR. NESHAN: I understand. But, see, in the

7 -- the way the standard is written, it says that even a

8 self-contained case, we have to -- there is a formula,

9 a constant. What is a self-contained or remote? Even

10 though they are different relationships, different

11 formulas, but same still applies, in that there is a

12 constant and there is a TDA or volume involved.

13 MR. SACHS: I understand that. But it is no

14 longer -- it is now scaled electrical, physical, and

15 functional characteristics rather than identical.

16 MR. NESHAN: Correct.

17 MR. SACHS: And it may be that only that --

18 substituting that word would solve my stomach churning.

19 MR. NESHAN: You are absolutely correct. But

20 I have to say, on the remote display cases, you still

21 have to -- you might have the same thing in that

22 depending whether you are using any LED lights or
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1 fluorescent lights, the ballasts for the power module

2 are going to be different for a four-foot case versus a

3 12-foot case. So not necessarily 100 percent

4 identical, but they have the same characteristics.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So how do you --

6 MR. SACHS: But that to Laura, as I'm

7 understanding it, would be a different basic model, but

8 it could be evaluated with the same AEDM.

9 MR. SHEBIK: Yes. Massoud, that's --

10 MS. BARHYDT: How do you know what the

11 consumption is of the four foot versus the 12 foot? I

12 know our standard has a function, but how do you know?

13 If you test a four foot, how do you know what the

14 consumption is of the 12 foot? Do you just multiply by

15 12 or by --

16 MR. NESHAN: No, by three.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

18 MR. NESHAN: Basically.

19 MR. BAUMAN: When you certify -- this is Jeff

20 from National. When you certify a basic model -- and I

21 have just gone back and looked at the difference

22 between certified basic model and certified individual
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1 model -- if I certify a basic model that is CRE, I have

2 to submit the information on what the volume of that

3 unit is. So those models would not have the same

4 volume. I don't know how they could be the same basic

5 model, then, if they -- I mean, that's a --

6 MS. BARHYDT: So what the report --

7 MR. BAUMAN: -- because the difference is

8 non- rated features. Part of your rating is your

9 volume that you published, right?

10 MS. BARHYDT: Under the current --

11 MR. NESHAN: The way that AHRI -- or under

12 AHRI the model numbers are defined is different than

13 what is defined here. Okay? Under AHRI, a model

14 number means like a multiple display case, a vertical

15 display case. Whether it is two foot or 20 foot long,

16 it is still the same model number.

17 MR. EISNER: Ron?

18 MR. SHEBIK: I agree with you. I guess I was

19 -- I'm kind of looking at both approaches. I kind of

20 see how you could do it both ways, where once you know

21 your - - if your basic model is -- there's a basic

22 model definition, if you can apply it to a four-foot
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1 case, then your AEDM would allow -- you know, for a

2 remote case, let's look at remote only, essentially

3 linear. So if you had a four-foot case, you know your

4 eight-foot case, you know your 12-foot case, you know

5 your 16-foot case, because it's modular. It's a

6 modular case.

7 So I guess I'm kind of seeing that you could

8 kind of run both ways with it, I believe. Your AEDM

9 could be applied to figure out what your different

10 lengths would --

11 MR. NESHAN: If I may, we know if you have a

12 four foot, eight foot, 12, six, 10, whatever, the four13 foot case is the least efficient display case. That's

14 how it is. Okay? So when you test a four-foot case,

15 that is the worst case scenario.

16 I don't have to test a six-foot case. I

17 don't have to do eight or 12. I know I am going to be

18 better efficiency-wise when it comes to a 12-foot long

19 case. So if I published it, or if I'm in compliance

20 under the requirements of the four-foot case, I'm sure

21 that the 12- foot case would comply and there wouldn't

22 be any problem. Okay?
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1 So I just test the four-foot case. I don't

2 have to go test all of these other stuff. Okay?

3 MR. RIVEST: And then you divide by four that

4 energy consumption and report that as a --

5 MR. NESHAN: Oh. There is something you have

6 to do, and that is the score for the opening or display

7 area or volume. That gives us the number to see if we

8 are in compliance with the requirements of the minimum

9 energy efficiency standard or not.

10 If I am, then I am. I don't care about this.

11 I don't have to test. I don't have to do anything.

12 And I would challenge -- or like DOE wants to test it.

13 Go ahead and do it, spend the money. You'll find that

14 the 12-foot case, for example, is more efficient.

15 Okay?

16 So I'm not concerned about it. But if I have

17 to go and test all of these other ones, it's a lot of

18 cost. For large companies, maybe it's not an issue.

19 For a small privately-owned manufacturing facility --

20 MR. RIVEST: With the AEDM, you would never

21 have to test it. You would just -- it's just a matter

22 of what data you put into the --
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1 MR. NESHAN: I know.

2 MR. RIVEST: -- database.

3 MR. NESHAN: But I wouldn't issue -- the

4 basic model definition we have here also applies later

5 on in other discussions. If you agree to this one now,

6 then other -- then you are going to be basing -- our

7 discussion will be based on the fact that this is the

8 basic model definition.

9 And energy consumption is going to be

10 different. If you are going to use the total

11 consumption as a means of defining what a basic model

12 number is, then it is not going to work, because if I

13 have to test, if it's based on consumption, I have to

14 test every single -- any of those cases.

15 No, no, no. Hold on. Yes, I have --

16 MS. BARHYDT: I hear what he's saying. Yeah.

17 MR. NESHAN: Two basic models, I have to test

18 12 each basic model.

19 MS. BARHYDT: If we don't base it on --

20 MR. RIVEST: On an AEDM.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. And he's saying that if

22 you look --
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1 MR. RIVEST: He has an AEDM right now. It's

2 multiplied by --

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Right, right. But he's

4 asking about -- assume he has no AEDM. What is the

5 basic fundamental certification testing requirement?

6 Is it for this whole line with all of the different

7 multipliers? Or is it for my -- this type of case?

8 MR. RIVEST: The thing is, there is no

9 testing a one-foot sliver.

10 MS. BARHYDT: No. Exactly.

11 MR. NESHAN: But, again, the key point is if

12 we accept the basic definition, you cannot have basic

13 model definition for this -- for when you have AEDM,

14 and then have a basic model definition for linear

15 testing. I'm assuming you want to have -- hmm?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, you do. Basic model

17 is used for testing and for certification based on

18 testing. AEDM is -- and this is what -- in our

19 discussions about AEDMs, I kept asking, what is the

20 relevance of basic model? Because the AEDM is not

21 based on basic models.

22 MR. NESHAN: No. I agree. I agree. But
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1 would you have a different definition for what a basic

2 model is? It seems that DOE is stuck with one --

3 MS. BARHYDT: Would I for an AEDM?

4 MR. NESHAN: Oh, no, no, no. I mean, in

5 general.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Oh.

7 MR. NESHAN: Our discussion for the past two

8 years has been to define what is a basic model --

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

10 MR. NESHAN: -- definition is.

11 MS. BARHYDT: And so on this definition, I am

12 willing to leave this up here for now. Seriously, I

13 have to go back and look at all of my emails, because I

14 know Ashley and I exchanged some emails about this

15 definition.

16 MR. NESHAN: Do you understand what I'm

17 saying?

18 MS. BARHYDT: I completely understand what

19 you're saying. I'm just -- I've got to go back there,

20 and I've got to look at the regs and I've got to look

21 at some emails.

22 MR. NESHAN: Because once we define that, our
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1 problem is that we a lot of times manufacture one of a

2 kind. And that would be a basic model by itself, and

3 then I have -- we sell only one per year. I have to

4 test two of them and sell only one, which doesn't make

5 sense commercially.

6 MS. BARHYDT: No, I understand that.

7 MR. NESHAN: That's a different discussion to

8 have, but basic model definition means a lot.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Just as long as you understand

10 that if you had an AEDM you would not actually have to

11 test that one.

12 MR. AMRANE: And maybe the discussion

13 shouldn't be based on the assumption that we will have

14 an AEDM. Maybe it should be based on if you had the

15 test.

16 MS. BARHYDT: And that's fine.

17 MR. SHEBIK: That's a whole separate

18 discussion. And if you make one-of-a-kind models, and

19 you have to test, you are not going to test two, if you

20 only make one.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Which is why I think the

22 Department is figuring that most people at this table
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1 are going to want to have an AEDM, because for one-offs

2 AEDMs are the way to go.

3 MR. SHEBIK: I agree with that, but I think

4 it is -- I mean, your question is not that; right?

5 MR. NESHAN: No, no. No, no, no. Please

6 don't have that kind of perception. When I'm talking

7 one of a kind, it's completely one of a kind. There is

8 nothing like you have seen before. So if you can't --

9 there is nothing to base it on.

10 MALE SPEAKER: And you may never build it

11 again.

12 MR. NESHAN: May never build it again.

13 MR. RIVEST: So how does this help you?

14 MR. NESHAN: This doesn't help me.

15 MR. RIVEST: Oh.

16 MR. NESHAN: No, no. No, no. This one --

17 the basic definition means a lot, though. Defining

18 what the basic model is, not for one of a kind, but for

19 those other ones that I was talking earlier about.

20 MR. SACHS: This point came up one or two

21 sessions ago, and the point seems to me to be very

22 clear. If it is a true one-off, then the sample is the
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1 universe, and there is no sense in testing two. Okay?

2 MR. NESHAN: Yes.

3 MR. SACHS: The only one is the one that you

4 test.

5 MR. NESHAN: Correct. But please put it in

6 black and white.

7 MR. SACHS: I would be happy to put it in

8 black and white, but I don't write it.

9 MR. NESHAN: Well, I mean, whoever writes it,

10 I mean, because they say "minimum of two." And that is

11 a problem.

12 MR. SACHS: And "minimum of two" is based on

13 the assumption that we are sampling a universe.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

15 MR. SACHS: And in this case, the universe is

16 one.

17 MS. BARHYDT: One.

18 MR. SACHS: Yeah, it's one.

19 MR. EISNER: Then you'll have two or 100

20 percent of the ones you --

21 MR. SACHS: Right.

22 MR. FLY: So, Harvey, can you rate an AEDM as
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1 a one-off? I mean, rate that one-off with an AEDM,

2 then?

3 MR. SACHS: If it belongs to the product --

4 the verification class?

5 MR. FLY: Yes, correct.

6 MR. SACHS: I see no reason that you can't.

7 You would have your choice of using the AEDM or testing

8 that one-off.

9 MR. FLY: Because if you are a one-off

10 manufacturer, you really don't -- you may not want to

11 test everything that you make in a --

12 MR. SACHS: But then --

13 MR. FLY: -- situation.

14 MR. NESHAN: Unfortunately, you may have to.

15 MR. SACHS: At that point, you have the

16 option of doing an AEDM.

17 MR. NESHAN: We have to test everything we

18 manufacture. We have to meet NSF requirements, and

19 that is from the product temperature point of view, and

20 we have to meet the DOE's -- it says after January 1,

21 2012, everything has to meet the minimum energy

22 efficiency status. So we have to meet the numbers, but
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1 I cannot test two of them, you know? I just --

2 MR. FLY: You are only making one.

3 MR. NESHAN: I make one, I test it. If it

4 doesn't work, I make sure that it works before it

5 leaves the door. And then I might never see that

6 requirement or request again. So it's tested, but I

7 have to test it because I have to make sure it

8 performs. So AEDM doesn't mean -- doesn't make sense

9 for us to do.

10 MR. SACHS: I don't think anyone is asking,

11 unless DOE still is, for testing two of a unique

12 product. Yes.

13 MS. BARHYDT: We would have to change our

14 regulatory language.

15 MR. SACHS: Well, darn it, get going.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Understood.

17 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

18 MR. EISNER: Okay.

19 MR. KLEISS: In that situation, is it

20 conducting two tests on the same unit?

21 MS. BARHYDT: No. The whole point of the two

22 tests isn't to test that product. The two tests is
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1 supposed to be a test of the population. It's a

2 sampling. And so two tests of one unit doesn't tell

3 you anything more about the population. But,

4 understood, if you have a population of one, then your

5 whole universe is one, and you have tested 100 percent

6 of your units.

7 MR. SACHS: But testing the same unit twice

8 does tell you something about the lab.

9 We don't want to go there.

10 MR. EISNER: So we are off of CRE?

11 MR. SACHS: I'm not sure we --

12 MR. EISNER: Are there other things --

13 MR. SACHS: -- language. Well, I think we

14 have concepts.

15 MS. BARHYDT: I really have to go back and I

16 have to do a little research tonight before I can

17 completely agree to that language. But for the

18 concepts, I'm with you.

19 MR. HON: Well, there's secondary -- Charlie

20 Hon, True Manufacturing. There are secondary issues

21 also in that same wording of the law that say that you

22 have to do certain things, number one of which is take
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1 it -- try and get different lots whenever possible.

2 But it goes on and on and on -- the criteria

3 to try and segregate so that you don't duplicate the

4 same lot number and everything else. They are wanting

5 more justification for it. So the only way to fix it I

6 think is regulatory action saying if there is only one

7 being made, that is all you have to test, because right

8 now there is no way around it, the way the regulations

9 are written.

10 MR. RIVEST: Getting back to this per linear

11 foot or per TDA, would there be manufacturers who would

12 object to that because they would like to take the

13 benefit of the energy -- the fact that as they get

14 longer they are more efficient per linear foot? So is

15 this an industry -- is your position an industry

16 position, or is it your company position?

17 MR. NESHAN: No. This is the one that DOE --

18 the minimum efficiency standard as written.

19 MR. RIVEST: I know that. What I'm telling

20 you is that by defining the basic model to be scalable

21 from, you know, four feet to 12 feet, and it's like our

22 basic model grouping, if you will. If you are going to
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1 be underrating the longer cases, right, so it could be

2 -- it's possible that some manufacturers, for whatever

3 reason, would like to show you lower energy

4 consumption, but they couldn't if this was the basic

5 model definition, because they are --

6 MR. NESHAN: Why not?

7 MR. RIVEST: Because every -- the four-foot

8 cases would have the same budget as -- the 12-foot

9 cases would have the same per linear budget as the four

10 foot.

11 MS. BARHYDT: You could do that. You'd say

12 that 4 to 8s have this number, and then the 12 to 16s

13 have a different number.

14 MR. RIVEST: Yeah. There's nothing in their

15 compliance statement that would say how long it is.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Well, no. I mean, we would

17 have to collect that, if they wanted to be -- if they

18 wanted to have the flexibility to do that, but that's

19 in the certification requirements of what they provide.

20 MR. RIVEST: But isn't that -- they would be

21 providing a per linear foot number. And then everyone

22 would have to go on a per linear foot basis.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But you --

2 conceptually, on a certification report, we could

3 change the certification information to say length of

4 cases that you are certifying, and then could put 4 and

5 8, and they could put in one linear foot number. And

6 then on another one they could say these are our 12- to

7 16-foot cases, and put a different number.

8 MR. STANONIK: And there would be different

9 basic models.

10 MS. BARHYDT: And certify those as different

11 basic models.

12 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff again. I think it

13 --

14 MS. BARHYDT: Conceptually, it's possible.

15 MR. BAUMAN: -- that you have -- it seems

16 like opening a can of -- I would say "worms," but it's

17 more like snakes here, because you take it to the other

18 -- you're talking about all CRE here. You're not

19 saying just open cases that are the same profile or

20 whatever else.

21 I mean, you talk about reaching -- you know,

22 somebody has got a single section and a three section.
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1 Well, the only difference is the length. That's not a

2 case per se of what we are talking about here on the

3 description, but you're -- now you're going to -- they

4 are going to determine total energy consumption by

5 square footage or by unit volume and report that as

6 opposed to having to report different volumes and --

7 different volumes for each one.

8 I mean, it really changes -- it changes

9 around the whole way I think I have or that we have

10 looked at this thing, because you did your display area

11 and you did your total energy consumption, you know,

12 for that unit, so you knew that case had to meet that

13 energy consumption. I think it's opening a can of

14 worms for me, and I would put -- I don't know -- I've

15 got to think on this a little bit from my perspective,

16 too, but it's a lot different than what we're talking

17 about or have this -- as far as I know, this part of

18 the industry has looked at ratings as far as, you know,

19 again, looking at EnergyStar, and things like that.

20 I mean, a customer, a potential customer goes

21 through and he looks through a bunch of numbers and

22 says, "This is what the energy should be used now. It
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1 is going to be -- that's per unit volume," and you're

2 going to have to figure out all of that. So I'd just

3 like to --

4 MR. NESHAN: Well, that's how it is done.

5 That's how you are -- we have to perform our testing

6 and report the numbers per volume or per unit volume or

7 per unit of display area.

8 MR. BAUMAN: That may be the case for some

9 CRE products, but it's not -- I mean, close --

10 MR. NESHAN: It's all of them.

11 MR. BAUMAN: -- or for --

12 MR. NESHAN: It's all of them.

13 MR. BAUMAN: That's how the requirement is to

14 meet EnergyStar. But when you publish to Energy --

15 MR. NESHAN: It's not EnergyStar, first of

16 all.

17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. Can I -- but we are

18 talking about what we are going to do here is

19 potentially and likely going to be used by EPA as they

20 are going to have similar types of standards.

21 Maybe that standard is going to become you

22 publish per unit volume as opposed to right now for EPA
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1 or for any listings that are out there, there is a

2 model number, there is the volume published, and there

3 is an energy consumption for that product, what it is

4 going to use per day, kilowatts per day or whatever.

5 I mean, this is going to change around a lot

6 of how it is looked at I think as far as -- if this was

7 to, you know, be used for this product class and this -

8 - and we are talking about this entire product class,

9 not just open cases or not just -- so that's -- I'd

10 need to wrap my head around it a little bit, I think.

11 MR. RIVEST: You realize a lot of products

12 have this mx + b equation. A clothes washer could -- a

13 residential refrigerator is the same way. There they

14 report a basic model has a different volume. You know,

15 different volumes would be different model numbers. So

16 what you are proposing is a head-scratcher here.

17 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, True

18 Manufacturing. Either one works because if you know

19 the length of the case, you just plug in the formula.

20 It's simple arithmetic almost and multiplication/

21 division type function. If you know the internal

22 volume, it's simple multiplication again.
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1 So if someone wants to calculate it, and if

2 you guys are willing to accept it, that's fine. It's a

3 broad category or broad brush. But for us as an

4 individual company, we won't do that because we are

5 going to say, okay, that line may not be straight, and

6 we want to capture all of the numbers more accurately.

7 I don't want to give up my advantage of a

8 three- door refrigerator being more efficient per cubic

9 foot than the two-door, and even more so than a one10 door. So from the manufacturing viewpoint, we are not

11 willing to give up our advantage that way. But if

12 somebody else wants to, I don't care.

13 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff. I guess I want to

14 get clarified -- I agree with you, Charlie. I'm trying

15 to understand, though, also can I -- if that's

16 considered a basic model, can I have -- can I subdivide

17 your basic models into my basic models and what I want

18 to call basic models?

19 MR. RIVEST: Well, it sounds like --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Can you put multiple basic

21 models within one of them? Or the other way around?

22 MR. BAUMAN: I guess multiply -- you know, I
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1 would do the same as Charlie. I'd multiple -- I

2 wouldn't probably use this type of value published, but

3 I would use --

4 MS. BARHYDT: We always let people slice and

5 dice them into smaller pieces. You can't conflate

6 different things into one basic model, but you can

7 chuck -- the broadest possible interpretation of it,

8 you can dice into smaller parts.

9 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. The other part is, again,

10 the guys that are going to cheat, or stuff like that,

11 is this going to make it easier for them to eventually

12 get in there?

13 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. I think that it

14 just leaves you wide open. If I see a formula in there

15 covering a certain kilowatt per day per cubic foot, I'm

16 going to go with the smallest unit in that category,

17 and I'm going to look at it real seriously, because

18 that is going to be the most common error factor is the

19 smallest one, because you've got more external surface

20 area; therefore, more heat loss off the cabinet.

21 And if you are using a standard formula,

22 either they are suffering a terrible penalty at the
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1 high end or they are exposing themselves at the low

2 end. So it is a business decision that can be made,

3 but I sure won't make it.

4 MS. BARHYDT: So we'll come back to this

5 tomorrow. But are there any other issues with it that

6 haven't already been at least raised for head7 scratching and pondering?

8 MR. BAUMAN: I'll say, too, and the wording

9 also -- aside from these -- you know, if we are going

10 to keep it to the -- I think what we're -- the concept

11 that we're talking about here, the way I read it having

12 -- one manufacturer having the same primary energy

13 source, and then essentially identical electrical,

14 physical, and functional characteristics, and I kind of

15 pause there under the -- what we're talking about here

16 is those cases don't have the same electrical and

17 physical. It almost has to become the wording -- it

18 has to change to add "the same characteristics, such

19 as" -- okay.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. I agree that if we go to

21 that, those words are going to have to be --

22 MR. AMRANE: And for every definition, I
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1 think we need to put this -- that we are doing it by

2 primary energy source, and maybe we should put that in

3 --

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

5 MR. AMRANE: So that they should be able to

6 know what we mean by --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

8 MR. EISNER: Okay. Nothing else on CRE?

9 What's the next one we have to discuss?

10 MS. BARHYDT: PTACA.

11 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. This one is an easy one.

12 Maybe when we're done with this we can go to the

13 difficult one.

14 MS. BARHYDT: So I know everybody went back

15 and did a lot of homework. I've heard that there's a

16 spreadsheet, although I didn't get a copy of it.

17 MS. MEYERS: John got a copy.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: I thought I sent it around.

19 MS. BARHYDT: You didn't send it to me?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm sorry. I sent it to the

21 engineer.

22 It should be on the computer, though; right?
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1 MR. RIVEST: I mean, I think there are two

2 sets of issues here. One was to try and get a sense of

3 some common understanding about what it means to be

4 comparable for those products -- for things like

5 comparable condensing coils, comparable evaporator

6 coils, things like that. And then the second part is a

7 common understanding about what should be excluded from

8 testing, which is the bullet points below.

9 So we just created some slides there to try

10 and see if there are any clear-cut distinctions that

11 are there. This gets us down to the list of

12 exceptions.

13 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. Before we

14 begin, could you go back one slide?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yep.

16 MR. HUNT: If you were to write this

17 definition for what we're doing right now, what would

18 it look like? Would it stop at "cooling capacity" and

19 leave out "basic model does not" and everything else?

20 Or even the first four, five, six lines are different

21 than what we do now?

22 MR. RIVEST: No. It would be the top would
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1 apply, and then you would have a list of exclusions.

2 MR. HUNT: So if we stopped right after

3 "cooling capacity," that is the definition now.

4 MR. RIVEST: Yes.

5 MR. HUNT: Okay. Is there a problem with

6 that? Are we saying that we've decided there's a

7 problem with that?

8 MR. RIVEST: Yes.

9 MR. HUNT: Okay.

10 MR. RIVEST: All of those things below that

11 line.

12 MR. HUNT: Okay.

13 MR. AMRANE: Actually, do we want to keep

14 "the same and comparable expansion device" in the

15 definition, or should we --

16 MR. SACHS: If something was explicitly put

17 in a session or two ago --

18 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Well, I'm asking to make

19 sure. You want to keep "expansion device" in there?

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Actually, I had a

21 question about why -- whether or not we need "expansion

22 device" in there. I don't know that it -- yeah, I
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1 think it's too much detail. And, I mean, if it has an

2 impact on -- normally it is not going to impact the

3 EER. It might impact part-load performance.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

5 MR. WHITWELL: But DOE is only covering EER

6 here, full-load performance.

7 MR. SACHS: The sense --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not the same as

9 residential, Harvey, and commercial.

10 MR. SACHS: The sense I had, and you all

11 probably can educate me, is -- two things. One of them

12 is a little bit of fear that I might be establishing my

13 basic model with an EEV and then using things which

14 don't give me as good control of flow into the

15 evaporator in the same basic model group without

16 correcting for it. And my other concern is that I

17 suspect these definitions will last into an era when we

18 are doing things like IER and maps.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So if that's the case,

20 then I would assume that somebody that is using a fixed

21 orifice versus a TXV or EXV is going to take advantage

22 of that in the IER rating in the future. So, you know,
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1 you might have basic models that are different, and

2 have different expansion devices, or you could group

3 them together. I think it --

4 MR. SACHS: You certainly can group them in

5 the AEDM. It wasn't clear to me that grouping them in

6 the basic model made sense. Again, I could be wrong.

7 This is not an area I claim to be an expert in.

8 MR. WHITWELL: I just don't see it as adding

9 -- having it in there as part of the basic model

10 definition.

11 MR. SACHS: Well, is there consensus among

12 the manufacturers on that?

13 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. I would agree.

14 MR. SACHS: I'm outvoted.

15 MR. AMRANE: No, no, no.

16 MR. SACHS: Karim, not voting?

17 MS. BARHYDT: So we took a stab at same or

18 comparable compressor, and we are wondering if that is

19 what you meant when you wrote that or --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

21 MS. BARHYDT: No. So can you explain what

22 you meant by "same or comparable compressor"?
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. I

2 mean, a scroll versus a reciprocating would have a

3 different performance map. We're saying that those are

4 not the same.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay.

6 MR. FLY: Two different brands with the same

7 --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: That's --

9 MR. FLY: -- might be --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, yeah. So the comparable

11 is more around brands, more around -- they have model

12 groupings as well, compressor manufacturers kind of

13 have model groupings, all with the same kind of

14 performance. So the model number might be --

15 MR. WHITWELL: But I think if you read up

16 there, "same or comparable," same type, such as scroll,

17 with comparable performance maps.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. You're right.

19 MR. WHITWELL: I think that's okay.

20 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. Okay.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So this is more limiting than

22 current DOE definition. DOE would let you group
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1 "scroll" and "reciprocating" as long as you tested and

2 rated the least efficient. Do you want to limit

3 yourself?

4 MR. AMRANE: It depends what you mean by

5 "limiting," because --

6 MS. BARHYDT: Well, so you are -- so if you

7 do not have an AEDM, you would have to test to scroll

8 and to reciprocating.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Not if it's the same model.

10 MS. BARHYDT: According to this, they cannot

11 be the same basic model.

12 MR. STANONIK: But today if you had -- if you

13 had a design that was available either with a scroll or

14 a reciprocating --

15 MR. WHITWELL: They are going to be very

16 different products.

17 MR. STANONIK: It wouldn't have the same

18 model number, would it?

19 MR. WHITWELL: No. No. I mean, they are

20 going to be very different. Right.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: And we are taking advantage of

22 different operating maps there and what they are doing,
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1 and so on. So I just can't imagine why you would want

2 to --

3 MR. STANONIK: It's not like somebody would

4 order one with a scroll and you'd say, "Oh, we ran out

5 of those today, so I'm giving you one that we sell."

6 MS. BARHYDT: No. I knew it's not something

7 you would substitute, but --

8 MR. STANONIK: Okay. Yeah.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Well, I know it's not something

10 you would substitute, but --

11 MR. STANONIK: Yeah, okay.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: We know that.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't think we would group

14 them together and not take advantage of what one or the

15 other is giving us.

16 MR. WHITWELL: One or the other is going to

17 be, yeah, I mean, there's a reason why we would be

18 using one or the other.

19 MS. BARHYDT: That's what I would think. The

20 question is do you want to leave that flexibility in

21 the definition, or do you want to force it so that

22 somebody who is certifying based on testing is forced
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1 to test to either, both.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think you need the

3 flexibility.

4 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I

5 think this derived, and help me Karim, this kind of

6 derived out of the HRI basic model recognition.

7 MR. AMRANE: I think so, yes. They have

8 similar wording.

9 MR. FLY: It has similar language in it.

10 MR. RIVEST: And the way I think about this

11 is these differentiations that you've made and the

12 definition are those digits that you are in fact

13 reporting specifically in your catalogs in the

14 database. And those options that you want deleted are

15 the asterisks. Is that the word?

16 MS. HOOTMAN: That's pretty close.

17 MR. RIVEST: Kind of. So this would mimic

18 what you're already doing.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

20 MR. RIVEST: And here I guess we were just

21 asking if there needed to be more specificity as

22 guidance for selecting products down the road. Like
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1 what you meant by different, say numerical compressors,

2 and there are other things you would want considered in

3 selecting, if it's not being done by HRI.

4 MR. WHITWELL: I'm sorry; could you repeat

5 that?

6 MR. RIVEST: So these examples were just to

7 provide additional guidance to Department if it's going

8 to select a product. Say it's not part of a VICP and

9 we want to make sure that we're actually creating, you

10 know, picking products that are not different, or that

11 they are different. So we thought of this as a

12 difference. I don't know if there are other things.

13 So I mean, your question is would we want to eliminate

14 the possibility of somebody having scroll and

15 reciprocating compressors, and moving them together in

16 the same basic model.

17 MR. DOPPEL: I mean, why would you want to

18 prevent them from doing that?

19 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, I know, that's what I'm

20 thinking.

21 MR. DOPPEL: They feel their AEDM covers

22 both?
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, the AEDM could still.

2 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, absolutely.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it would affect the

4 rating.

5 MR. AMRANE: Where are we seeing the

6 difference where everything has to be the same in the

7 definition. I'm not seeing it. Well, let's talk about

8 this, because it's not in the definition that's up

9 there.

10 MR. RIVEST: Our basic model.

11 MR. AMRANE: Well, look at it. No, no, look;

12 I don't see anything about deficiency here.

13 MR. RIVEST: The basic model is reporting the

14 efficiency. You can't have more than one deficiency

15 reported to one model.

16 MR. HURST: Regardless of the type of

17 compressor.

18 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe I guess, you know,

19 giving it, thinking about it that way, comparable

20 compressor would be one that has, and if it has

21 comparable performance at the rating in the rating

22 conditions --
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1 MR. HURST: It doesn't matter what type it

2 is.

3 MR. WHITWELL: It doesn't matter what type it

4 is.

5 MS. JAKOBS: When you say comparable, it's

6 same or better. Because you're saying it has to be the

7 same or better. Because you're saying you have to rate

8 it at the lowest.

9 MS. BARHYDT: The lowest.

10 MS. JAKOBS: So it would have to have the

11 same performance or be better.

12 MS. BARHYDT: The system as a whole would

13 have to be better.

14 MR. FLY: But, yeah.

15 MS. BARHYDT: It's not all --

16 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. But

17 you couldn't go out and advertise the better; you have

18 to advertise the ballistic.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

20 MR. FLY: So maybe you could put a better

21 compressor in there and you'd be giving somebody

22 something more than what they ask for. But you
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1 couldn't make that statement, because that's part of

2 the core.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

4 MR. JOHNSON: So this is Tom Johnson.

5 Rusty's on my shoulder talking here right now, so his

6 definition would be primary compressor shall be

7 specified by model number, and alternate compressor

8 shall have equivalent mass flow rate within two

9 percent. And equivalent or lower power consumption, or

10 any saturated suction temperature or inside discharge

11 temperature within the products approved operating

12 frame.

13 MR. WHITWELL: I think that's more detained

14 that you're looking for.

15 MR. JOHNSON: I know. I'm just throwing it

16 out there.

17 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, that's like supply a

18 spec sheet along with a certification.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: But he's right.

20 MR. JOHNSON: If we could simply that.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So, I'm thinking this is

22 discussion and clarification. You don't actually have
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1 to make anything, just What's the next thing? What

2 about condensing coils?

3 MR. WHITWELL: I think that covers it, right,

4 similar geometer. So -- and one comment I had on this

5 is that we have cases where we have round two plate fin

6 coils and micro channel available for a specific model

7 and we rate them the same. We would like to be able to

8 have that be in the same basic model. So it's really

9 comprisable UA value is really what I think is what is

10 significant here; right?

11 MR. RIVEST: Because they wouldn't have the

12 same geometry, maybe not even the same service area.

13 MR. WHITWELL: And the material is aluminum,

14 and copper in one case, and it's all aluminum in the

15 other.

16 MS. BARHYDT: So it's just comparable

17 performance?

18 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, do we need to define

19 each of these, or is it up to a manufacturer to

20 determine whether, you know, what's comparable and then

21 have this?

22 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think we need to. Part
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1 of this is we want to make sure that everybody at the

2 table is talking about the same thing.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, okay.

4 MS. BARHYDT: And is thinking the same thing.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Just we don't want to be

7 talking past each other.

8 MR. RIVEST: Would those two products you

9 described have the same model number on the HRI

10 database?

11 MR. WHITWELL: No.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: No. Well --

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

14 MR. RIVEST: The client would want to know if

15 they're buying one or the other.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Well, they would know. I

17 mean, the customer orders the full model number. They

18 don't order a model number with a asterisks; right?

19 MR. RIVEST: So they would have.

20 MR. WHITWELL: They would know. When they

21 place their order they pick the model, the specific

22 model number out of our literature, which would say
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1 which coil with this.

2 MR. RIVEST: But if those digits have the

3 same number, how would you --

4 MR. WHITWELL: They don't have the same

5 number.

6 MS. MEYERS: They don't. They might have an

7 asterisks.

8 MR. WHITWELL: They don't have the same

9 number.

10 MR. RIVEST: So that feature, okay.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Right. I mean, that specific

12 digit, which is an asterisks, it would say whether it

13 was round two plate thin, or micro channel, or coated

14 coil, or copper, all copper coil. There's a lot of

15 different options for that. It specifies what is that

16 evaporator coil, and then it also could specify what

17 the condenser coil is in that one digit.

18 MS. BARHYDT: And so you said that two of

19 those have the same rating. Do some of those other

20 variations have different ratings? Or does everything

21 in that variable have the same rating?

22 MR. WHITWELL: They would have the same
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1 rating.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Everything would, okay.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: If we boiled it, shall we say,

4 up to that level, then we're saying that all of them

5 are in that same rating. I'm sorry.

6 MS. BARHYDT: I couldn't hear the last thing

7 you said.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Then, you know, if we boiled

9 that up to that same level, then all of those

10 underneath there are having the same rating.

11 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. But we could

12 also subdivide those groups if we wanted to say the

13 coated coils had a different rating. We could as a

14 manufacturer to say option three, or A and B is in this

15 group, and C and D is that group. Although, we'd have

16 to figure out some way to describe it.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, it's complicated to do

18 that; right.

19 MR. FLY: But you could do that.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, you can give more

21 options. This discussion is really about how you're

22 limiting your ability to group things.
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1 MR. FLY: Well, how much flexibility you can

2 have, as opposed to how detailed you can get.

3 MR. DOPPEL: Well, I think that most

4 manufacturers would agree that if they put an asterisk

5 in the model number that that's an indication that

6 rating does not matter.

7 MR. RIVEST: Rating does not matter?

8 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. It's the same.

9 MS. BARHYDT: It's not affected.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: It's all rated nothing.

11 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. Not that we don't care

12 what the rating is.

13 MR. RIVEST: It's either excluded or --

14 MR. DOPPEL: It doesn't impact the rating.

15 MS. BARHYDT: It's not affected.

16 MR. RIVEST: -- or covered by the rating we

17 had published.

18 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, covered by the rating

19 published.

20 MR. SACHS: So with that in mind, if we go

21 back two slides, I think it is, to the laundry list,

22 yes. Are you telling me that if it's in that model
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1 group and it has, for example, coated coils, hale

2 guards and other things that increase the pressure

3 drop, it's still going to qualify as being a legal

4 product of sale.

5 MR. AMRANE: That's why we want to exclude

6 those things.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Not necessarily.

8 MR. SACHS: I'm saying that this is now

9 presented to me as a product based on a test that

10 excluded them. And now I've loaded it up and put a

11 turbo charger on the fan motor. Is it still going to

12 pass?

13 MR. RIVEST: The answer is we haven't done

14 that yet.

15 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that was the discussion

16 that we were having a the end of the last meeting, was

17 the fact that the intent is to build a basic

18 refrigeration system that meets the efficiencies that's

19 published. And then pretty much everything that's on

20 there is added for the convenience of the installation

21 site, whatever those requirements are.

22 MR. FLY: A requirement of the application.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, a requirement at the

2 application site.

3 MR. SACHS: I don't want to say I'm just

4 asking, but it does have implications in terms of how

5 the law is written, I think. But I'm not a lawyer.

6 MR. AMRANE: It absolutely does. And that's

7 why we're having the discussion. Otherwise, we won't

8 be having the discussion.

9 MR. SACHS: Well, I'll sit and wait with

10 bated breath.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Same with evaporator coils?

12 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Just the UA?

14 MR. STEM: Well, as an outsider looking in,

15 if you're going to expand the scope toward CREs that

16 PDA and adjusted volumes, it's the same metric as

17 faceting for AC systems. So I mean, you can use the

18 same argument, I think. When it goes to public

19 comment, you may get some feedback that you're

20 expanding one and you're limiting the other, and you're

21 going to get some negative feedback on that. That's my

22 only point.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: On this one the copper versus

2 aluminum, would you want to allow those to be in the

3 same basic model?

4 MR. FLY: If you adjust them so they had the

5 same --

6 MR. WHITWELL: UA, possibly.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

8 MR. FLY: I don't know; is it UA? I'm not

9 sure UA is -- well, I guess the (inaudible) what you're

10 talking about.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, that's right. Yeah,

12 right. So copper; it could be copper or aluminum.

13 MS. BARHYDT: As long as you maintain the UA.

14 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, same performance.

15 MS. BARHYDT: So it's all about the

16 performance, not the materials.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. And the same on the

18 condenser coil for that. This one we're taking out;

19 right?

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

21 MR. MARANTAN: I have a question just to be

22 clear on the previous slide. Is there any other
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1 physical descriptor that you might want to mention for

2 having a not same or comparable?

3 MR. WHITWELL: For coils?

4 MR. MARANTAN: Or is it simply performance of

5 the component? For the coils, for example.

6 MR. WHITWELL: For coils. I don't know

7 should we, what about pressure drop?

8 MR. FLY: Pressure drop and UA kind of go

9 together.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, because in the UAs we've

11 got that.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, right.

13 MR. FLY: So, I mean, if you're taking your

14 micro channel coil and downsizing it so that it

15 operates exactly like the copper coil, the same one,

16 you probably got more air flow and less service. But

17 you could make it match.

18 MR. MARANTAN: So you just want to leave it

19 open to be flexible?

20 MR. WHITWELL: Uh-huh.

21 MS. BARHYDT: What constitutes a comparable

22 air moving system?
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1 MR. AMRANE: Are we talking CFM here?

2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think so. I mean,

3 that's what's important, right; it'd be the air flow

4 static, right, and energy consumption.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Fan in order.

7 MR. RIVEST: So there'd be some static

8 pressure?

9 MR. DOPPEL: The external static pressure is

10 defined per size.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, it's defined in the

12 test, yeah.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: It's in the test standard.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

15 MR. FLY: And we're going to give you the CFM

16 for that reading as part of the supplemental

17 information.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Just go back and see what

20 people think about -- it sounds we're just talking

21 about performance on all these. So like as long as the

22 performance is comparable, can we put the word
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1 performance somewhere in the submission, so that we

2 know we're not talking about just a feature that's --

3 MR. DOPPEL: But the test requirements call

4 for the external static pressure at the test condition.

5 MS. BARHYDT: No, looking at the compressors,

6 the coils. What we're hearing is that it's not so much

7 the physical characteristics of the compressors or the

8 coils. What we're really talking about is components

9 that have similar performance.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, same operating mass.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Right, because I --

13 MR. RIVEST: It's the same amount of power

14 input.

15 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, I guess when we think

16 about it, we think a basic model as being as similar,

17 essentially the same capacity, cooling capacity and

18 efficiency, right. And that's traditionally how we

19 would look at a basic model.

20 MR. AMRANE: So we could add that maybe.

21 MR. WHITWELL: And I think that's the reason

22 for putting those things up there about, you're right,
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1 comparable compressor, coils, et cetera, is because

2 it's to get the same or comparable performance.

3 MR. DOPPEL: And I think maybe have a common

4 net cooling capacity is too restrictive, and just make

5 it common net. Take the net out and make it common

6 nominal.

7 MR. FLY: Be careful with nominal.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Where?

9 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that would mean like a

10 MS. BARHYDT: Take out net?

11 MR. DOPPEL: If you say net nominal, then

12 it's like 96,500. Yeah, and then down that same line

13 take the net, yeah.

14 MS. MEYERS: Hold on.

15 MR. FLY: In this case nominal really means

16 rated; right?

17 MR. DOPPEL: Rated, yeah.

18 MS. BARHYDT: I heard yes and no.

19 MR. DOPPEL: It would be like nominal would

20 like 10, 15-phase system.

21 MS. MEYERS: Well, exactly ten, or? What are

22 you saying nominal?
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1 MR. DOPPEL: Nominal is like the ten ton.

2 MS. MEYERS: Well, exactly?

3 MR. DOPPEL: No. If you list it in your -- I

4 mean, like a 3-10 residential system can be anywhere

5 from like, you know, 33's up to --

6 MR. RIVEST: I just don't know if that's the

7 word, "nominal" is the right word.

8 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, I don't either.

9 MR. RIVEST: I know what you mean.

10 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

11 MS. MEYERS: I'm not sure "nominal," though.

12 I think I know what you think you mean by nominal, but

13 I don't know that the word, that word is --

14 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that -- I mean, that's

15 what we have in the BRF definition. And that's what we

16 mean with that is that it's the general capacity and

17 characteristic. Like generally, it's name a ten ton.

18 MR. RIVEST: It's the rounded number.

19 MR. DOPPEL: The rounded number.

20 MR. WHITWELL: But I think -- I mean,

21 basically what it's saying is they don't all have to

22 have exactly the same face rating; right? So however
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1 that wording is put in there --

2 MR. RIVEST: We'll get the right term.

3 MR. DOPPEL: But a nine ton, all right --

4 MS. MEYERS: But what is that term?

5 MR. DOPPEL: -- or a seven and a half

6 couldn't be in the same with a ten ton. Because

7 nominally, it's not the same.

8 MR. RIVEST: I mean, providing that we have

9 your database.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. And what you're saying

11 is we're not all at 120,000 BTUH for those ten tons.

12 We're anywhere from, dah, dah, dah, you know. What is

13 that; what's that term?

14 MS. MEYERS: I want to say that this is a

15 pretty common asterisk term. Can anyone get that term?

16 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, that's how in the

17 industry we use the word "nominal," is to kind of

18 describe that range.

19 MR. RIVEST: An economist uses it different.

20 MR. DOPPEL: But they're wrong.

21 MR. RIVEST: Exactly. The nomination.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: But I'm not sure it's the right
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1 word.

2 MS. MEYERS: But I think that's how we in the

3 industry think of it.

4 MR. RIVEST: We can define it.

5 MS. BARHYDT: We can either define it, or

6 we'll find someplace to reference the definition.

7 MS. MEYERS: Because I think it's important.

8 MR. WHITWELL: We're in agreement on what

9 we're talking about; right?

10 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, okay.

11 MR. EISNER: This is probably a good time to

12 take a break.

13 MR. RIVEST: So, yeah, I think we'll pull the

14 individual, the comments that you guys provided. The

15 comment we got from -- I think it was (inaudible)

16 provided these. He said, you know, they're essentially

17 the same, except his emphasis was on physical

18 descriptions, whereas your descriptions were on how

19 things were used or what they're doing.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I think we were trying

21 to provide input on what's the benefit in the

22 application, right. That maybe it's not, maybe it
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1 doesn't pact deficiency, but there is some other

2 additional benefit in the application.

3 MR. RIVEST: Well, we're also looking for a

4 definition that would make it clear to someone that

5 this is about what's being (inaudible). So if you say

6 -- Aris is going to walk it through.

7 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah, we can go through each

8 one one-by-one. But what we were looking for was maybe

9 some physical attributes that allow us to determine

10 what's in, what's out, based on what you had in mind

11 when you described this.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: So this is Jill from Trane.

13 Are you saying for an economizer we should say a damper

14 motor linkage, those are the physical components,

15 sensor and that kind of a definition, versus what its

16 purpose is? Because there could be designs in the

17 future that don't use those things. And so I guess I

18 don't really understand why if we describe it on what

19 we know it to be today, technology, et cetera can take

20 it in the future and it could maybe not be that. But

21 still do the same purpose.

22 MR. RIVEST: I'm just relaying what he said.
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1 Maybe you can have that in mind as we go over the two

2 definitions. I mean, he did a description, you did a

3 description. We can look at them both maybe side-by4 side and see if we can put it together.

5 MR. EISNER: Is this a good time to take a

6 break?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

8 MR. EISNER: Why don't we take a ten-minute

9 break?

10 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

11 MR. EISNER: Can we get started? Can I have

12 everybody's attention? I'm going to have Harvey yell

13 at you again.

14 We talked at the beginning of the last hour

15 to about whether you still have the right to comment on

16 an NPRM. And I don't want to leave you with a

17 misimpression. I read the ground rules to indicate

18 that you do have the right to comment on the NPRM. But

19 I want to make clear what I believe is also DOE's

20 philosophy to the extent that you can raise it during

21 these negotiations and discuss it in whatever detail is

22 necessary. That I think is better for you, and DOE
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1 agrees. And they may still have time to make

2 adjustments before the notice of proposed rule-making

3 is issued. So don't hold back concerns you have about

4 something we discussed subsequent to today that effects

5 what we've already agreed to. They still may be able

6 to make adjustments and fix that document before it

7 goes out.

8 So with that said, let's get onto the next

9 chart we have up here. Somebody's going to explain

10 this?

11 MR. MARANTAN: I can walk us through here. I

12 think one thing that might be useful is if we look at

13 what's on the screen up here, which is what you all

14 prepared, as well as the slide.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not trying to set us up,

16 but I don't know how well it's going to work.

17 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah, I'm just going to go off

18 the slides in front of me for what we prepared in

19 advance, and that might give us a sense for what we

20 want to do here. And we'll start with the definition.

21 And this one is copper evaporator coils. And I

22 understand that you also have condenser coils listed
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1 there as well. So maybe we could start with this

2 definition. Referring to air heat exchanger made using

3 copper fins and copper tubes to reduce corrosion

4 resulting from use of dissimilar metals used in

5 standard aluminum fin copper tube coils. What we had

6 prepared in advance is an indoor coil used in an air

7 conditioner fabricated entirely of copper.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Maybe also outdoor.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

10 MR. MARANTAN: And outdoor, since we're

11 talking about both.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: It could be indoor.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so instead of "copper

14 evaporator coil," it should be "copper evaporator

15 and/or condenser coil," right. I think we can work

16 with the Power Point slides and just edit them as we

17 go; right.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe.

20 MR. MARANTAN: So we have an indoor or

21 outdoor coil used in an air conditioner, and fabricated

22 entirely of copper. So that would be the fins and the
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1 tubes as you suggested. How does that sound? No other

2 adjustments?

3 MR. WHITWELL: No.

4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next item on the

5 slide is what we want to get into next, is the impact

6 on the test procedure. We characterize it as low. And

7 I see in your document you also characterize it as

8 pretty low. There's a one to three percent number.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, it really --

10 MR. DOPPEL: Did we go over your definitions

11 of low?

12 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, we got it here.

13 MR. MARANTAN: Okay, we can start there. All

14 right, slide 15, let's cover that. The low is up to

15 two percent.

16 MR. DOPPEL: Two percent of 00.

17 MR. WHITWELL: EER.

18 MR. MARANTAN: EER is what we're talking

19 about.

20 MR. DOPPEL: Or COP?

21 MR. MARANTAN: Right. Medium is two to ten

22 percent for each metric. And high is ten percent or
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1 greater.

2 MR. FLY: And remember the tolerance is five

3 percent.

4 MR. MARANTAN: Yes.

5 MR. FLY: So medium would be on the range of

6 the power; is that a fact?

7 MR. MARANTAN: It would. Okay, so --

8 MR. SACHS: But if one-sided, we're happy for

9 you to do better.

10 MS. JAKOBS: But if you had a manufacturing

11 problem that caused five percent error, that would be

12 on top of it. So you could have a combination of

13 issues that would make you go past that.

14 MR. FLY: Or if you have multiple of these

15 they add up.

16 MS. JAKOBS: Right.

17 MR. WHITWELL: So some comments on impact of

18 the test procedure. It really is going to vary

19 depending on the approach the manufacturer takes. The

20 manufacturer could do a direct substitution of copper

21 fin for aluminum fin. And because the better thermal

22 continuity of the copper perhaps get better
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1 performance. Or they can change the fin count, for

2 example, the number of fins per inch. Reduce that with

3 the copper and get equivalent performance. Or in some

4 cases, it might actually be a little bit lower, if they

5 have enhanced fins in the aluminum fin coil. They may

6 need to eliminate the enhancements in the fin, because

7 the copper fin is going to cause the fin die to wear

8 very quickly. And they may, and so for that reason

9 they might take the enhancements out of the fin and you

10 could actually have a performance decrease. But

11 anyway, the impact's going to be on the low side, based

12 on the previous slide. It could be a slight benefit to

13 a slight negative impact.

14 MR. MARANTAN: I'd like to also cover a

15 couple of these discussion points for each slide. So

16 one of the things we need to discuss is the need for

17 the exclusion, the relative volume and more efficient

18 alterative. So if you have thoughts on that.

19 MR. WHITWELL: So under need for exclusion a

20 reason for excluding it would be the fact that it

21 prevents corrosion in certain environments. Seacoast

22 applications and industrial environments where you have
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1 chemicals in the air that could cause corrosion of the

2 aluminum fins. So although it has --

3 MR. DOPPEL: It could be either indoor or

4 outdoor.

5 MR. WHITWELL: It could be indoor or outdoor.

6 So although it might have a negative impact at the test

7 condition, it's going to allow the equipment to run at

8 a higher efficiency level over the life of the product.

9 MR. FLY: So this is Mark Fly with AAON.

10 What's DOE's take on relative volume? How are you guys

11 viewing this? Because this is a relatively low volume

12 product I think for most everybody.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: They're very expensive.

14 MR. FLY: They're very expensive and they've

15 very low volume. And we're going to run into that

16 through several of these items. So there's a

17 justification of, you know, there's a cost of me

18 listing it as a separate model group. Which if I don't

19 have an inclusion and I feel like there's a big enough

20 impact if I create a new model for it, and there's a

21 cost, then that's going to eliminate it basically from

22 the market. Because the cost, the volume won't justify
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1 the cost.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Well this --

3 MR. FLY: And there always is a cost to

4 listing, whether it's testing, or exposure to testing,

5 or just maintaining the paper.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

7 MR. SACHS: How would you recommend it be

8 handle?

9 MR. FLY: Well, I think most of the

10 manufacturers would like for very low volume things to

11 be excluded. You know, that's really --

12 MS. BARHYDT: There's nothing in the statutes

13 that excludes low volume.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm sorry?

15 MS. BARHYDT: There's nothing in the statute

16 that excludes low volume. I mean, we routinely get

17 requests from manufacturers who say I only produce low

18 volume products. And the statute doesn't have a low

19 volume exclusions. There are some statutes across the

20 government that have that have that kind of an

21 exclusion and EPA doesn't.

22 MR. FLY: Too bad.
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1 MR. SACHS: Laura. Stress is holding --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: For instance, on this

3 particular thing I looked at, sales last year less than

4 one percent. In fact, significantly less than one

5 percent in this specific one.

6 MS. BARHYDT: And you've said that the

7 variability is two percent or less. And you have a

8 five percent --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I'm just saying the

10 inclusion of this option.

11 MR. SACHS: Well, zero to two.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm sorry; I'm just saying the

13 inclusion of a copper evaporator condenser coil or that

14 option on our product.

15 MR. HURST: So it shouldn't be base on the

16 product, it should be based on --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: That's what I'm talking about

18 low volume.

19 MR. HURST: What it does test. That's what

20 you're saying; right?

21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

22 MR. HURST: It shouldn't be based on volume.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

2 MS. JAKOBS: So then down the road if you

3 installation were, that would be a problem, it fail

4 over a year. We could say excel a replacement part

5 that was copper for when they repair it and then it

6 would go on.

7 MS. BARHYDT: But I don't understand why you

8 wouldn't sell them the copper coil. That's what I'm

9 missing is the --

10 MR. WHITWELL: Well, the issue is that this

11 has low impact, other options have low impact, but

12 quite often multiple options, or normally you have

13 multiple options that are sold on a particular unit.

14 MS. JAKOBS: That's the norm.

15 MR. WHITWELL: So the one percent add up.

16 MR. FLY: For instance, if you're going into

17 a swimming pool environment very often it's a copper

18 coil and a reheat coil.

19 MS. MEYERS: And most of these actually

20 increase the installing.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Only one at a time. What were

22 you were you saying, Mark?
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1 MR. FLY: I said when you're going into say a

2 swimming pool, the auditorium environment, or one of

3 the adjacent areas, many times they'll want a copper

4 coil and they want a reheat coil, because it's a

5 dehumidification. So now, I've got two options on my

6 list and I'm getting closer to my --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: And get chlorine in the air, so

8 therefore you've got caustic environment, dissimilar

9 metals, chlorine disintegrates.

10 MS. BARHYDT: And Karen, what were you

11 saying?

12 MS. MEYERS: Well, I'm saying most of these

13 options increase the installed efficiency of the unit,

14 but they're a negative on the test procedure.

15 MR. RIVEST: But can I speak? So some of

16 these things are pretty clear cut. You have a basic

17 model, it has a refrigeration system, including coils,

18 compressor. And we're adding a part in there that's

19 creating a restriction of flow, and that's clearly

20 something you're adding in there. Here's you're

21 talking about something that's integral to the

22 refrigeration system. Why can't you just make it
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1 efficient enough to meet the standard? Because it's not

2 like you say, so if you were to just use the same

3 design of this thing you would achieve the efficiency.

4 So you're not achieving it just because you're backing

5 off on the service. So this is probably one of the

6 more, quote, difficult contentious ones.

7 MR. WHITWELL: I agree.

8 MR. RIVEST: And we're starting right away.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I know, I agree.

10 Absolutely.

11 MR. RIVEST: There's a lot of others we could

12 just say --

13 MR. WHITWELL: It happened to be first on the

14 list.

15 MR. RIVEST: And that and the coating, you

16 know, in the coating there's more of a rationale,

17 because you're already making the core of the coil, so

18 you can dip it and you get --

19 MR. WHITWELL: The coating doesn't have

20 higher better thermal connectivity; right? It's not

21 like you're substituting. When you're substituting

22 copper for aluminum things get better, right, if
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1 everything is --

2 MR. RIVEST: Everything else being the same.

3 And then, you know, pushing this to the limit, if every

4 system with a coil, with a copper coil --

5 MR. WHITWELL: This is not the number one on

6 my list that I would argue for by far. This is way

7 down there.

8 MR. RIVEST: Right. I'm just sort of having

9 this conversation so you see how, you know, Ashley and

10 me have been talking. Like if all else is the same and

11 we can buy the other one that's identical except for

12 that option, then it's easier to say, yeah, sure. But

13 where here you're talking about a coil that's designed

14 specifically for this unit, it's harder to get it.

15 MR. WHITWELL: I agree.

16 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly from AAON. I

17 think we put, you know, we as, when the manufacturer

18 got it, we threw a lot of things out here. Some of

19 them probably not all of us know everything about, and

20 we compiled a list for discussion. So I think this is

21 a negotiation and things are negotiable, to some

22 extent. So I can't say that everything on this list
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1 that we all feel passionate about is one way or the

2 other. There probably are things on here that

3 individuals, or maybe a big group of us are passionate

4 about. So I don't want to leave the impression that we

5 tried to get as much stuff on here as we could think

6 about in the short time we had to think about it. Our

7 greatest fear is we've left something big off that's

8 going to come up tomorrow.

9 MR. EISNER: If you can't consider exempting

10 it from the statute, or excluding it from the statute

11 because of the terms of the statute, are there ways you

12 can handle it when you think it is a valuable addition

13 to the product and will improve the lifetime

14 efficiency.

15 MR. FLY: I think I can answer that. If

16 there was a rulemaking and we created a product class

17 for corrosive environments, then it would have its own

18 cost efficiency curve. So, because it's copper, the

19 incremental cost of efficiency may be greater than if

20 it was aluminum, for example. And therefore, that

21 would result in a lower standard for lack of a product

22 class. That would be a way of handling that. It would
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1 be a way of handling also the coated coatings.

2 Now, we are in the middle of rulemaking now.

3 So it's something we could actually look at now as

4 well. Just defining the class not as copper coils, but

5 as some utility to the customer. In this case,

6 corrosion resistance. But there are parallels with

7 weatherized furnaces, for example.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Do you have any -- I'm sorry,

9 Mike. Do you have any authority under the statute to

10 give credits for the addition of products that will

11 improve the lifetime efficiency?

12 MR. FLY: It's not a credit; it's just part

13 of the analysis with the lifetime of a product like

14 that.

15 MR. WHITWELL: So you'd evaluate it in a

16 different way.

17 MR. FLY: Yeah, you'd just evaluate it

18 separately. And end up in a different place probably.

19 MR. EISNER: Would that satisfy your

20 concerns?

21 MR. AMRANE: Well, again, it means that you

22 are going to establish a lot of product classes that
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1 way.

2 MR. FLY: Well, we're at number one.

3 MR. AMRANE: Okay, number one, yeah. Do you

4 see the list?

5 MR. FLY: I told you this is a real tough

6 one.

7 MR. EISNER: And again, I'm not an engineer,

8 one who knows nothing about this. There's some lawyers

9 in here who know more than I do, obviously. Can you,

10 instead of requiring more product classes, can you

11 simply have a part of the rule that gives credits for

12 things that improve lifetime efficiency to make up for

13 the loss initially?

14 MR. FLY: Not the way you would credit, no.

15 MR. EISNER: Well, is there a way that you

16 could describe it in another way that would allow it?

17 MR. FLY: The answer is we've thought about

18 this.

19 MR. EISNER: Okay.

20 MR. FLY: The appropriate way would be the

21 way we discussed. You know, no modification to the

22 test procedure would result in giving credit on the way
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1 the test procedure is done. Not over a life.

2 MR. SACHS: For a little bit of context, my

3 own sense of the scenario is that everybody's been

4 interested in a slightly different way that we really

5 have no -- all of these tests are on new products as

6 ready to be shipped. And there's very little knowledge

7 publically available on performance degradation over

8 the life of a product, with or without a special heat

9 exchanger, or anything else. So getting into that

10 would open the door to much broader discussions of

11 field performance degradation over time, and early

12 replacements, and all sorts of other things that I

13 think everyone has been a little afraid of opening that

14 particular box.

15 MR. EISNER: For another meeting.

16 MR. MARANTAN: So we have relative volume in

17 here. And I heard mentioned by somebody that less one

18 percent was --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: This was just last year. This

20 is Jill from Trane. I just looked at what we sold last

21 year. So it was all our total volume in this product

22 class, it was significantly less than one percent. And
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1 they're going to tell you it's because of cost. It's

2 four times -- I mean, it's four to five times more

3 expensive. So it's because of cost.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Did anyone else look at their

5 number?

6 MR. WHITWELL: I don't have that for copper

7 specifically. But it would be a small number.

8 MS. BARHYDT: So close, if not.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think so.

10 MR. TUCKER: Lennox would be the same.

11 MR. MARANTAN: You can put four to five times

12 the cost. Okay, we discussed the options for new

13 product classes. And I take it that the test procedure

14 modifications in this case would be not applicable. Is

15 that fair?

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay, so that's copper,

18 evaporator and condenser coils.

19 Is there any other comments on this?

20 Charles.

21 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, Drew

22 Manufacturing. Aren't there also some specialty
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1 exclusions in this category for hospitals and a few

2 other things?

3 MS. BARHYDT: Commercial refrigeration

4 equipment have --

5 MR. HON: No, air conditioning.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: HVAC?

7 MR. HON: HVAC.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Of copper?

9 MR. HON: Even like special filtration

10 systems, or anything else like that.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, we haven't gotten to

12 those topics. We're just focused on this particular.

13 MR. MARANTAN: That comes later, one of the

14 later slides.

15 MR. HON: Okay.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: What's options for future TP?

17 MR. WHITWELL: Test procedure.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Test, okay. Got it.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Toilet paper.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, exactly.

21 MR. MARANTAN: The next one is correction

22 capacitors, which was brought up last time. Oh, sorry
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1 it's --

2 MR. EISNER: Slide 18.

3 MS. BARHYDT: No, it should be like --

4 MR. MARANTAN: It should be slide 18.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, but you deleted one

6 earlier.

7 MR. MARANTAN: You can search for it.

8 MR. EISNER: It's just before economizers in

9 the --

10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it's just a little --

11 MR. MARANTAN: There it is. Okay, correction

12 capacitors. So I'll read off the definition on the

13 slide. A capacitor that increases the power factor

14 measured at the line connection to the equipment.

15 Power factor is defined as electrical power, electrical

16 power input divided by the power, the product, the

17 voltage and current, all quantities evaluated on a root

18 and squared basis, integrating over a power supply

19 cycle. The definition you provided was power

20 correction capacitors are used to correct the phase

21 shift between current and voltage caused by inductive

22 loads, such as motors.
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1 MR. FLY: So either definition is fine.

2 MR. WHITWELL: These are where you have DFDs;

3 right?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not electrical.

5 MR. FLY: No, actually -- I mean, I wrote

6 this section so I can talk about it a little bit. The

7 definition, power correction capacitors typically get

8 applied at the request of the building owners. If we

9 go down there and look at more efficient alternatives,

10 the more efficient alterative is for them to put a

11 bigger transformer on the building. That is not very

12 popular. And I have no control over that whatsoever.

13 So I mean, typically -- I mean, some of the utility

14 guys help me out here, because I'm not electrical.

15 MR. MYERS: No, we don't want to.

16 MR. FLY: There is a loss in them, because

17 nothing is 100 percent efficient, and they do generate

18 some heat, and it's fairly low, I think as you noted.

19 They are also a very relatively small option. And if

20 we took it out, somebody would probably put the power

21 correction capacitors in a box right outside of our

22 unit, rather than inside our unit. So whether we put
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1 them in or take them out, it isn't probably going to

2 change the fact that they will get applied, because

3 nobody wants to buy the multi $100,000 transformer to

4 replace the multi $100 power crashing capacitors.

5 MR. RIVEST: Can I ask just a few questions?

6 The capacitors would be connected to a motor or to the

7 line.

8 MR. FLY: Typically the line.

9 MR. RIVEST: The line. And it doesn't need

10 to be measured during the test procedure; right? I

11 mean, it would be possible to make them on the other

12 side of the line?

13 MR. FLY: Yes, you could.

14 MR. RIVEST: So could we just specify that in

15 the test procedure that if there's a capacitor present

16 that it should be --

17 MR. FLY: They go downstream of the capacitor

18 and --

19 MR. RIVEST: Is that a possibility?

20 MR. FLY: Yeah, in the power correction that

21 they make is what the electrical engineers called

22 apparent power versus the real power. And the power
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1 unit leaders that we use to measure by the test

2 procedure --

3 MR. RIVEST: Are watts.

4 MR. FLY: Well, they get the real power.

5 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, okay.

6 MR. FLY: You know, they look at the whole

7 wave form of the current, and the whole form of the

8 voltage and integrate over the whole thing and get the

9 right power. If you just put a clamp on meter on it

10 you would get a different reading, because there's a

11 shift and it causes the current to look high.

12 MR. RIVEST: I don't think there's big issue

13 here.

14 MR. FLY: I don't think there's a big issue

15 here. And if we can modify the test procedure and the

16 downstream of it, I think that would probably be the

17 appropriate response.

18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Aren't

19 there some applications -- I'm not familiar with this

20 particular product class, but there are some

21 applications where those capacitors are actually put at

22 the motor, as opposed to in the line. Because it's the
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1 motor load that causes your demand factor to go up.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, in the chillers and stuff

3 I've seen that happen. But I don't know that I've seen

4 it in this stuff. In chillers, I have. In the control

5 panel of the chillers.

6 MR. MYERS: Yeah. I mean, the bigger the

7 motor, the more likely it is to be at the motor instead

8 of on the line.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: But the chillers aren't a

10 covered class here, so --

11 MR. FLY: But here again, you would have to,

12 you know, if they're included, are they an asterisk or

13 not an asterisk, or if they're not an asterisk -- I

14 mean, I think it's really not an asterisk, it's usually

15 a special --

16 MR. RIVEST: I think there's acknowledgment

17 that if it adds load without, you know, if there are

18 losses in there.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

20 MR. RIVEST: And it is an added utility to

21 the client. It corrects their power factor. They have

22 to maintain a certain power factor (inaudible). But
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1 there's no benefit in the test procedure, because it's

2 measuring real power. So whether DOE's preference

3 would always be to come up with a test procedure fix --

4 because that way you don't have to check that there's

5 actually a unit, a base unit that's identical in every

6 other way. You buy it. If it's there, you test it,

7 getting around it. Otherwise, you have to make sure, if

8 it's an exclusion, that there is the identical unit

9 that is being produced. It's not a big deal in this

10 case.

11 MR. WHITWELL: So what is the approach, then;

12 is it that this is excluded until a test procedure

13 change can be made?

14 MR. RIVEST: I think that's a good idea.

15 MS. BARHYDT: I think that we can do that.

16 MR. BALLOW: I'm just wondering why we would

17 need to do it that way instead of just proposing that

18 to modify the test procedure to say that there is

19 correction capacitors installed on the equipment,

20 they'd be bypassed or --

21 MS. BARHYDT: No, the test procedure takes a

22 while to get final. But the idea is that it'll be
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1 excluded up until we get the test procedure to deal

2 with it. But, no, the suggestion is to actually deal

3 with it in the test procedure.

4 MR. BALLOW: Okay, I didn't see why this

5 rulemaking, you know, why the NOPR couldn't just also

6 address the test procedure. It's just a simple --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, to modify the test

8 procedure at the same time?

9 MR. BALLOW: One paragraph, you know, or a

10 two- sentence thing.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Ashley kept saying we couldn't

12 do it in a test procedure here.

13 MR. AMRANE: There are other things in test

14 procedures.

15 MR. MYERS: Yeah, that can get complicated.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. And I expect there's

17 going to be others; right?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. I mean, this is Jill

19 from

20 Trane. That's the point I made before: the

21 Department can be very slow in adopting new test

22 procedures. So literally, we can out of here as
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1 members of AHRI and change the test procedure very

2 fast. But that doesn't mean that they've adopted it.

3 And every time I would --

4 MS. BARHYDT: They're getting faster.

5 MR. AMRANE: Yeah.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: So, you know, and every time I

7 would say that and Ashley would always say, "But test

8 procedure is not part of our scope. That's not here."

9 So that's all I'm saying is I didn't think we could.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Modifying the test procedure

11 triggers all the statutory provisions. And so I think

12 we'd rather do that in a separate rulemaking than this

13 one.

14 MR. MARANTAN: Okay, so we have on the slide

15 modified test procedure to measure power downstream of

16 a capacitor. That's an idea for the test procedure

17 modification.

18 MR. MYERS: There was some suggestion that it

19 might be bypass. Because if there happens to be a

20 packaged air conditioner where someone chooses to mount

21 the capacitors at the motor, then it gets much more

22 difficult to do a downstream, because the balance of
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1 the power is not going --

2 MR. RIVEST: You mean it could be

3 disconnected?

4 MR. MYERS: Pardon?

5 MR. RIVEST: Disconnected.

6 MR. MYERS: Disconnected, right. Something

7 like that, as opposed to --

8 MR. MARANTAN: Or disconnected, how about

9 that?

10 MR. MYERS: Disconnected, sure.

11 MR. FLY: Can we put this one to bed and say

12 this is an exclusion until we change the test

13 procedure? Or are we at that point where we're just

14 going to go through them all and then go back there?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Let's go through all of them,

16 and then we can kind of categorize and see what we've

17 come up with.

18 MR. FLY: Okay.

19 MR. MARANTAN: Are we okay with the

20 definition?

21 MR. MYERS: I think so.

22 MR. FLY: Either mine or yours is fine.
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1 MR. MARANTAN: Okay.

2 The next one is economizers. So the

3 definition on the slide, "an assembly with dampers and

4 means to automatically set the dampers in multiple or

5 continuously variable positions in order to adjust the

6 mix of building return and outdoor air entering the

7 equipment from zero percent outdoor air to X percent

8 outdoor air." So you can see here, we tried to make it

9 generic. And maybe that can take care of some of the

10 technologies that may be coming in the future. Let me

11 see what you have. Economizers. This is one where we

12 saw that the economizer definition you provided just

13 speaks to the function of the economizer.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. I

15 guess I have a problem in that the future technology

16 may not use dampers. So why are we locking ourselves

17 into the technology or, you know, a physical thing?

18 You could use bladders. You could use, you know, all

19 different kinds of things. I'm not saying we're there.

20 I'm just saying that this can be achieved in different

21 ways, and it doesn't have to be dampers, motors,

22 contactors.
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1 MR. MYERS: A device.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

3 MR. MYERS: We can device that.

4 MR. MARANTAN: A device?

5 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Bob Whitwell from

6 Carrier. You can also have water economizers. Which

7 is taking advantage of water, cool water you might have

8 from a cooling tower. So they're not always air

9 economizers.

10 MR. EISNER: So use "devices" in place of

11 "dampers."

12 MR. AMRANE: I think it's fine; I think

13 you're not talking about water or air economizer. I

14 think it brings outside air.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

16 MR. AMRANE: I mean, the way it's written.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so maybe we have to have

18 that as a separate definition.

19 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, it's a different number.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

21 MR. MARANTAN: Okay, so perhaps a device.

22 MR. EISNER: Remove dampers?
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Set the dampers.

2 MR. AMRANE: Did you get a look at the actual

3 definition?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: So I'm going to accept the

5 dampers?

6 MR. MARANTAN: I'm not sure

7 MR. EISNER: I think that, yeah.

8 MR. DOPPEL: It automatically controls.

9 MR. EISNER: It automatically controls the

10 mix.

11 MR. SACHS: You can take everything out

12 between that.

13 MR. DOPPEL: Automatically adjusts the mix.

14 Does that work?

15 MR. SACHS: The device doesn't have to be

16 automatic. The device and its controls both are.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Which means --

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so it means to adjust; I

19 mean, right?

20 MR. FLY: So leave "automatic"?

21 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know.

22 MR. DOPPEL: "Device" means to adjust the --
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1 MR. RIVEST: "Automatically" is kind of

2 important there.

3 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay, the second part of this

5 sentence, this definition, we have "XX" here for the

6 percent of outdoor air. And maybe that's something we

7 need to think about here.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: It's all dependent --

9 MR. MARANTAN: The thinking is that we want

10 to try to make sure that, you know, it's effective, or

11 you don't have anything that's just not working well.

12 So do you want a range here specified, zero to X?

13 MR. FLY: And they can go up to 100 percent.

14 MR. MARANTAN: It can go to 100.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It can, but again, it's all in

16 your effective range of enthalpy, dry-bulb, all the

17 parameters of outside conditions and inside conditions.

18 So, demanding a percentage doesn't seem right to me,

19 when they are making a decision based on what's

20 available at the unit conditions.

21 MR. SACHS: The zero percent is troubling

22 also for many applications. I'd like to be able to
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1 have the equipment providing minimum for any

2 conditions.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And some applications

4 in actuary is going to say that. I would agree,

5 Harvey.

6 MR. SACHS: What happens if we just terminate

7 after the word "equipment"?

8 MARSHALL HUNT: Yeah, that's what it is.

9 Actually, in other building codes, you know, with that.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, are taking into one that

11 should be in one; that shouldn't be for the building

12 use and all that.

13 MR. STEM: It's the industry definition,

14 isn't it, to eliminate the mechanical tools at the end

15 of it?

16 MR. STANONIK: Greenwood's going to look it

17 up.

18 MR. STEM: Produce or eliminate.

19 MR. STANONIK: I was wondering the same

20 thing. And the purpose of the economizer is to reduce

21 your cooling load; right?

22 MR. STEM: Do you want the 90.1 definition?
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1 MR. EISNER: Yeah.

2 MR. STEM: "A duct and damper arrangement and

3 automatic control system that together allow cooling

4 systems to supply outdoor air to reduce or eliminate

5 the need for mechanical cooling during milder cold

6 weather." Ducts and damper.

7 MR. RIVEST: It has ducts and damper.

8 MR. STEM: You can say --

9 MR. WHITWELL: Well, you can take --

10 MR. STEM: -- a device arrangement, and then

11 keep the rest of it. Do you want that?

12 MS. MEYERS: I like his definition better.

13 It's more reflective of --

14 MR. WHITWELL: I think it's not "eliminate

15 the need," but it's to "reduce the need" for mechanical

16 cooling. Because it's not going to totally eliminate

17 it. It depends on the conditions; right?

18 MR. DOPPEL: That's kind of awkward wording

19 anyway. Because I mean, what you're doing is you're

20 taking advantage of outside conditions.

21 MR. STANONIK: He got it on his phone. We're

22 putting it up there right now, the definition.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Oh, I have it here, yeah.

2 MR. AMRANE: Oh, yeah, I have it here, yeah.

3 So you want to read it? I have it here if you want to

4 read it.

5 MR. WHITWELL: And so you reduce the need,

6 reduce --

7 MR. DOPPEL: How about to take advantage of

8 favorable outside outdoor air conditions? Make -- make

9 it a positive instead of a negative.

10 MR. SACHS: All right. So if you just take

11 out duct -- duct and damper arrangement and just -- and

12 leave it as an automatic system that includes the words

13 device bifurcation. Automatic system controls not

14 needed. It actually not only allows, it enables.

15 Well, it said they wanted the word "automatic" in

16 there.

17 MR. MARANTAN: And another thing I notice is

18 that in the document you provided you have a -- an ESP

19 estimate, but we characterize it as low impact on EER.

20 I didn't see one in your document.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Just said it, yes.

22 MR. STEM: I think it's a lot more.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: I -- I mean, I wrote it. I

2 just basically say what might happen at the static

3 pressure loss. And so, you know, the problem becomes

4 and we have a very low static pressure in the test

5 procedure in the smaller units, when you start to get

6 into the larger units, this becomes a little less

7 significant as it does in the smaller units. So again,

8 you could say it in a range, 1 percent of -- oh, God,

9 where are we at, Ms. Marlin's -- static, 2. So this

10 50 percent affect on. That's a large effect.

11 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, but it's only the

12 (inaudible)

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, but, you know, when you

14 throw it off by a couple watts then you're ER can

15 really throw off.

16 MR. SACHS: So, Jill, I'm hearing your

17 recommendation for a test procedure provision increase

18 the static on small units.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: No. I don't think the test

20 labs can do it.

21 MR. AMRANE: We cannot test for -- for that.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't think test labs are
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1 going to be able to do it. They'd have to build

2 upwards of -

3 MR. AMRANE: 8067. We don't get for sure.

4 MR. SACHS: But that's okay. The equipment

5 does.

6 MR. WHITWELL: So it's probably in the

7 percent range, yeah.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Probably in the 3 percent

9 range.

10 MR. WHITWELL: About 3 percent on the smaller

11 sizes and decreasing as you go up in capacity.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

13 MR. STEM: What about the -- you know, you

14 talk about enthalpy, what about the -- the leakage, you

15 know, at the higher temperature tropical climates on

16 the standard rating test at 95 if, you had one that had

17 -- had a rough time in shipping?

18 MR. FLY: Well, thankfully, we actually have

19 --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, you wouldn't --

21 MR. FLY: -- air dampers that covers that.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: On leakage, you wouldn't have
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1 this open. You wouldn't have the damper blades.

2 MR. STEM: But it leaks.

3 MR. FLY: But that's what I'm saying, if it

4 had a rough time in shipping and you had some blades

5 damaged, at 95 degrees, you're going to have some

6 leakage.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, okay. I see what --

8 MR. FLY: And it's going to really kill --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: You're saying. Okay.

10 MR. FLY: -- your efficiency, so --

11 MALE SPEAKER: Any leakage there.

12 MR. FLY: Yeah.

13 MALE SPEAKER: Because you're on the outside,

14 right.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a killer.

16 MR. STEM: I mean, typically, because we're

17 going run a -- we're going to run a standard rating

18 test on a unit that has an economizer. We try to pull

19 it off, seal it up, remove it from the building to

20 eliminate any issues, so --

21 MR. HUNT: So this is Marshall. I'm PG&E.

22 We're looking at economizers that are bolt on, and
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1 we're looking at economizers that fit inside the box.

2 MR. DOPPEL: Integral part of the --

3 MR. FLY: Factory integral.

4 MR. STEM: These are factory installed.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Factory installed. It's just

6 part of the unit.

7 MR. MARANTAN: Hey, how about relative volume

8 of products.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, high. High.

10 MR. AMRANE: It's almost required on all of

11 them.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: High. Code says --

13 MR. AMRANE: I mean, people.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: -- you got to be there, it's

15 required. Except for humid conditions. I mean,

16 there's really -- as long as the climate zones --

17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. How about test

18 procedure modifications? That's -- that should be on.

19 MR. AMRANE: Well, the 8067 degrees return

20 does not --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: It would22 MR. AMRANE: -- is not suitable.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: It would not be -- at 8067

2 return and 95 outdoors, It would not be okay to

3 economize.

4 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. You cannot economize

5 with those temperatures. So --

6 MR. WHITWELL: It would mean changing every

7 test room in the industry in order to be able to have -

8 - I think it would need three chambers.

9 MR. FLY: Build new buildings.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Right. So you could have --

11 you could have the -- well, no. I guess you'd just

12 pull the outdoor air in the indoor side. I mean, it's

13 --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, but can every single one

15 of those test rooms pull outdoor air --

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: -- in a reliable condition?

18 MR. WHITWELL: Right. That's right.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: And could -- you know --

20 MR. DOPPEL: We can, but most can't.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: So it's a modification to every

22 single test room in the industry.
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1 MR. AMRANE: And then how would you control

2 outdoor air, too? You know, I think you're right.

3 MR. WHITWELL: You would need another code

4 tester or something, I guess.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: And then it's abducted to it so

6 then it has resistance.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Can you now modify the test

8 procedure to take it out of the --

9 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, you need another code

10 tester.

11 MALE SPEAKER: That's what I was thinking.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Without it?

13 MALE SPEAKER: There's a way you can seal it

14 up.

15 MS. MEYERS: I mean, it depends on how good

16 they seal it up. And that could be an integral part of

17 the system that can be sometimes difficult to achieve.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Difficult to do.

19 MS. MEYERS: And then you turn into the

20 system and, you know, who knows else happens while

21 they're trying to do that.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Is there a way to measure
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1 impact and then credit that back in the test procedure?

2 Is there --

3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, this is a case --

4 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, think -- think about

5 all the different ways you could --

6 MR. FLY: Yeah.

7 MR. WHITWELL: So Bob Whitwell from Carrier.

8 This is a case where you could order the equipment

9 without the economizer from the manufacturer. It's

10 available with or without. Because there are some --

11 you know, some areas, like in Florida, you're not going

12 to -- you're not going to ship an economizer to

13 Florida. So they might want all the other options but

14 not an economizer. So it's available.

15 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Could

16 -- could the standard say that for units with

17 economizers, the economizer shall be removed or --

18 MR. FLY: No. No, because you -- you can't

19 remove it.

20 MR. WHITWELL: It'd be hard to remove.

21 MS. MEYERS: I think all of ours -- and,

22 Diane, correct me if I am wrong -- but I think, you
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1 know, all of our package units, the economizer is an

2 option on all of them.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

4 MS. MEYERS: And you can always order it

5 without the economizer.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

7 MR. MYERS: Frank, I think everybody's saying

8 that.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: I think everybody -- I can't

10 think of anybody who wouldn't because of the -- like

11 Bob said, the Florida's, some of us have independent

12 distribution. They -- you know, let the independents

13 put them in. You know, stocking, all those kind of

14 things, so.

15 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI

16 again. That's -- that's kind of why I was saying that

17 if you -- if the standard says, if it has one, you'll

18 remove it, wouldn't anybody that's running a test for

19 the standard say, I'll order the one without?

20 MS. JAKOBS: But if you were trying to make

21 the whole system work better, you would make it -- I

22 mean, the bolt on/bolt off, that's the easiest thing.
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1 But that probably works the least well -- XX

2 (2:41:33.7) English would be. But the more integrated

3 it is and the better things seal up, that would make it

4 harder to dismantle.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Can't just look --

6 MR. AMRANE: But why are we doing all this?

7 Because we are putting this in writing mainly for DOE.

8 Right? And this is what we're doing. So why don't you

9 - - if DOE wants to test a unit, DOE can test a unit

10 without the economizer and be done.

11 MS. BARHYDT: So on the other -- the flip

12 side, if DOE did want to account for the energy impact

13 of the economizer --

14 MR. AMRANE: Oh, that's a different issue

15 then. That's a different discussion.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

17 MR. FLY: You require test procedure.

18 MR. AMRANE: That's --

19 MS. BARHYDT: Then it needs a test procedure

20 -- test -- test procedure change.

21 MR. FLY: And -- and it's really a part load

22 metric because it doesn't run at full.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Right. So it's a different

2 discussion.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So for the test

5 procedure modification, is it fair to say that this is

6 difficult?

7 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

8 MR. MARANTAN: We're not ruling it out

9 though?

10 MR. AMRANE: You can if you want to.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: With enough time and money,

12 anything's possible.

13 MR. SACHS: I think it belongs in the class

14 of things for which engineering information will be

15 more important than minimum standards.

16 MS. MEYERS: It's not just a test procedure

17 modification, it's an efficiency measuring

18 modification.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So it's a product class issue

20 as well.

21 MS. MEYERS: So yeah, because this is --

22 you're talking, like they said, part load. So this is
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1 much more than a test procedure modification.

2 MR. AMRANE: It's not -- yeah, it's not even

3 the part load that we have today.

4 MS. MEYERS: Yeah.

5 MR. AMRANE: So this is -- this is different.

6 MR. SACHS: Okay. I've been nice. Now you

7 got to send me the data.

8 MR. FLY: Okay. It's not the first time it's

9 been discussed.

10 MR. RIVEST: Is there a risk of protocol of

11 someone coming in from outside, filling in something

12 they call an economizer so that they don't get tested?

13 MR. WHITWELL: Not if -- not if it would be

14 recorded. There's a -- there's a paragraph in the end

15 of the power point that says that if they -- if

16 anything that's exempted they have to supply the

17 product without it.

18 MR. AMRANE: Right. Exactly.

19 MR. RIVEST: So put that there.

20 MR. WHITWELL: So I think that's a good add

21 that covers it.

22 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. What about new product
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1 classes?

2 MR. SACHS: There's a lot happening in things

3 like west -- western regional incentive requirements

4 and things like that which are addressing some of these

5 issues.

6 MR. MARANTAN: Okay.

7 Onto the next one. Okay. ERVs, HRVC pipes,

8 process heat recovery. Okay. There's quite a few

9 here. You've grouped yours into a definition that says,

10 These devices recover heat and moisture from the winter

11 exhaust air and transfer it to the ventilation air.

12 Conversely, heat and moisture are removed from the

13 summer ventilation air and ejected to the exhausted

14 air. And on the slide we have then in various forms --

15 ventilation, energy recovery system, in general means,

16 An assembly that preconditions outdoor air entering

17 equipment through direct or indirect thermal and/or

18 moisture exchange with the exhaust air, which is

19 defined as, The building air being exhausted to the

20 outside from the equipment. And then we have some

21 specific ones that incorporate that definition. I

22 won't read them all, but you can take a look.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Does this cover the full range

2 of the options?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Today's options.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Is the -- is the first

5 definition broad enough to encompass possible future --

6 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, basically the

7 definitions cover transfer of heat and moisture between

8 the air streaMS. So I think it's -- no matter how the -

9 - how it's achieved, it's covered in.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, so the -- so the other

11 ones, you know, might say today's technology. But, you

12 know, there's definitely some even looked at in

13 universities and stuff like that -- that are about to

14 find there's some university research.

15 MR. FLY: But does it matter to the

16 definition which way the transfer's going?

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, as an example, I'll use

18 the heat recovery ventilator. It transfers heat but no

19 moisture between the outdoor air and exhaust air. It

20 seems to me that actually heat recovery ventilator is

21 transferring heat from the exhaust air to the incoming

22 outdoor air. No?
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, those are all different.

2 All those ones below the top one, all those ones are

3 just ways that somebody's addressed this.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, but -- but -- but the --

5 but the way the definition's are wording, it's just

6 saying an exchange is occurring. And it seems to me

7 that depending which way the -- the transfer's

8 occurring is part of the definition of a given sub

9 device.

10 MR. FLY: I'm -- I'm missing something,

11 Frank, because I can see those all going either

12 direction.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. And so a heat recovery

14 ventilator, okay, if it goes the other direction, isn't

15 that an economizer?

16 MALE SPEAKER: No.

17 MR. WHITWELL: But I guess I never considered

18 one, you know, was taking heat outdoor air and --

19 MALE SPEAKER: To reduce the temperature of

20 the incoming air. Put that back to the --

21 MR. STANONIK: But -- but it's a heat

22 recovery ventilator, okay. So that says to me you're -
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1 - you're taking some of the heat from the air you're

2 exhausting and putting it into the outdoor air. You

3 wouldn't do the other way for heat recovery. It's

4 latent heat only though because these aren't done

5 exclusively, but it's primarily latent heat, not

6 sensible.

7 MR. SACHS: You -- you wouldn't be taking

8 heat from outdoor air and putting it into exhaust air

9 stream. There's -- there's no value to the exhaust

10 stream.

11 MR. RIVEST: I'm -- I'm just reading the

12 words.

13 MS. BARHYDT: I think he's saying that the

14 definitions need to be more explicit about which way

15 the heat transfer's going.

16 MR. SACHS: For -- for a given type of

17 ventilator, yeah.

18 MS. JAKOBS: Or do you really need all those

19 flavors?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Or will the top one work for

21 everything?

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, that's what I was saying.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a variation.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, don't go with the other

3 ones because we'd have to -- and the other ones,

4 there's issues. I mean, you'd have to do some cleaning

5 up around those. And --

6 MR. FLY: The last two don't really fit

7 necessarily with the rest of them.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Heat pump water heaters,

9 exactly. Back to the last two.

10 MALE SPEAKER: I don't know that the last two

11 really belong in this class. You know, they may belong

12 somewhere else, but.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Because I mean, both of those

14 are, you know reclaiming some kind of thermal from --

15 MR. FLY: Some other process.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: -- some other process, not the

17 heating HVAC system.

18 MALE SPEAKER: We're up to heating system.

19 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we have a general

20 definition now. Is that workable?

21 MS. HOOTMAN: It could be combined.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Oh, it's mixing, the outdoor
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1 and the return air are mixing.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Preconditions. They could come

3 in in a mixed condition. So it's not just outdoor air.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it's preconditioning the

5 outdoor air and then it's mixing the outdoor and the

6 return air. Right?

7 MR. FLY: That's what it's saying. So it's -

8 - it's changing, yeah.

9 MR. AMRANE: Do we want to look at the HOA

10 standard about, you know, the use of the definition?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

12 MR. AMRANE: Because maybe there is a

13 definition there

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yeah, through the ERV.

15 MR. AMRANE: ERV standards.

16 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. While we're doing that,

17 maybe we can talk about the impacts.

18 MR. SACHS: Before we get there, are we

19 shipping particularly large packages that would include

20 bypass efforts around the recovery for conditions? Or

21 are they just too low energy to recover like mild days?

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.
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1 MR. SACHS: So our product's going to have a

2 different pressure drops than running across the -- the

3 wheel, for example?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. Those are all

5 different versions of this.

6 MR. SACHS: The assembly has a pair of

7 flappers on it, too.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Some of them do.

9 MR. MYERS: Where that's saying, Means an

10 assembly, should that be a system that --

11 MR. FLY: I think the impact is similar to

12 the economizer and plus (inaudible).

13 MS. BARHYDT: Is it a physical equipment

14 versus -- electronic control board system to me implies

15 that there may be electrical components that are not

16 physical parts. I -- I -- I -- I don't know.

17 "Assembly," to me, sounds like there's box there.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: It's all of the above.

19 MS. BARHYDT: It's -- it's both.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, there --

21 MR. FLY: It's a device typically, either

22 full or a -- the recovery wheel or something and -- and
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1 a control system that goes with it that makes it all

2 work.

3 MR. MYERS: But who knows what it could be

4 five years from now.

5 MR. FLY: Well --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, there are some

7 interesting -

8 -

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, but it's still got to

10 perform the same function. Right?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Or else it's going to be

13 called something else. I mean, basically what you're

14 doing is you're exchanging heat and -- heat and

15 moisture with the outdoor air.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: And -- and under the test

17 conditions, they always are causing a pressure drop.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Causing a pressure

19 drop. And plus, you've got the -- the auxiliary fans

20 which are going to, if they're on during the test, are

21 going to draw additional power.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. We don't have to bring
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1 in outside air in the test procedure. And if accepted,

2 it's going to have to a static pressure drop.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. See, it's similar

4 issues with -- with the economizer from the test

5 procedure.

6 MR. RIVEST: 62.1 says, to devise a common

7 treatment plan means to provide the outdoor air for

8 ventilation in which energy is transferred between the

9 intake and the exhaust.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: And it's energy.

11 MR. WHITWELL: And it says thermal and

12 moisture.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

14 MR. AMRANE: I mean, that's what we -- we

15 have in our standards.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

17 MR. SACHS: I think it's the generalization.

18 There are advantages in using standard industry

19 nomenclature.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

21 MR. SACHS: I wonder if we could just have a

22 bolded instruction to advise this to match the ASRAC
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1 definitions.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Potentially. Some -- some

3 night I want to go look up some of these words here. I

4 know one of the ones earlier that we looked at it had a

5 ducks and dampers and there was a concern that that was

6 technology limiting. And so there -- there may be.

7 MR. SACHS: At least it's a starting point.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Fair enough.

9 MR. FLY: On this particular one, I would

10 argue that zero to low is not the right rating for

11 these tests because the pressure drops in the currently

12 available technology.

13 That's probably medium to high because an

14 inch on a two-tenths of an inch external settings --

15 this is a big number.

16 MR. FLY: It is a big number.

17 MR. MARANTAN: But I think it depends on the

18 design. I've seen a couple of designs that's it's on

19 the low side. Probably are describing some designs

20 that are on the high side.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: You haven't looked at a descet

22 oil. I -- I don't know a descet oil out there that
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1 doesn't have at least an inch on it. I mean, they're -

2 -

3 MR. WHITWELL: But that's for pulling the

4 outdoor air through.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: In.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So the difference between low

7 and high due to functional needs or is it a difference

8 in the technology being used or?

9 MR. FLY: Or the amount of energy you want to

10 recover.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

12 MR. FLY: The higher efficient systems have

13 higher pressure drop.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: So you can have one of those,

15 too

16 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. How about relative

17 volume of products diffuse components?

18 MR. AMRANE: This is coming -- becoming more

19 and more --

20 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, it's becoming -- this is a

21 growing --

22 MR. AMRANE: The code is changing, 90.1 is
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1 changing to make it more of a requirement in the

2 climate zones, things like that. So it's going to be

3 even more --

4 MR. MARANTAN: More and more prevalent, yeah.

5 MR. SACHS: We all hope, yeah.

6 MR. FLY: I don't know that we'd call it high

7 today, but it's medium.

8 MS. MEYERS: Yeah.

9 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Today, yeah.

10 MR. MARANTAN: How about options for test

11 procedure modification?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Lots.

13 MR. STEM: Seems like all of your -- or

14 options that you would do for a special application.

15 MR. AMRANE: Right.

16 MR. STEM: Special request. So it's almost

17 like you have your standard rating test for your basic

18 models and then the applications rating for all these

19 options. So the test procedure could be similar to what

20 you have in -- in other areas but the -- the rating

21 points would be different to -- to show that energy

22 gain.
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1 MR. FLY: The way H or I has chose to address

2 it, Grady, help me on this -- is through guideline B

3 which --

4 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, and that's -- and that's

5 something we have -- we have a way -- actually,that's

6 the only guidelines we have that basically gives you an

7 EER of the two.

8 MR. RIVEST: But it's not a test.

9 MR. AMRANE: It is not a test. It's a

10 calculation. So basically you have an ER read of 35

11 through the HRI and 60 -- you have a unitary product 55

12 to 340 through 60. Then when you have the certificated

13 rating, you could use guideline B and -- and then you

14 combine and you find an ER. This idea of concept of

15 system efficiency we are starting having discussion

16 within HRI about -- about this because we see it as

17 being the way to go. But that's -- that's still very

18 early within the HRI discussion, so.

19 But eventually, yes, you would be able to do

20 that. But that's not a simple thing. And it --

21 MR. RIVEST: That's inviting (inaudible).

22 MR. AMRANE: That's inviting (inaudible).
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1 MS. JAKOBS: Well, this is really a

2 combination. It could be -- you could have a stand3 alone ventilation energy recovery system.

4 MR. AMRANE: That's correct. That would be

5 another product.

6 MS. JAKOBS: So it's just a matter of we've

7 combined them and use the same blower system.

8 MR. AMRANE: Right. And if -- and if they

9 would not exclude this from the test procedure, we

10 would force our customers back to the point of putting

11 in those auxiliary systems with other power supplies.

12 MS. JAKOBS: And actually causing probably

13 building load power supplies to go up.

14 MR. MARANTAN: Karim, what was the guideline

15 --

16 D?

17 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, it was.

18 FEMALE SPEAKER: "B" as in boy?

19 MR. AMRANE: No, V, V, V, V.

20 FEMALE SPEAKER: V, sorry.

21 MR. MARANTAN: The last item on this slide is

22 for new product classes, options for new product
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1 classes. Any thoughts on that?

2 MR. RIVEST: Set up for classes when the

3 device makes it harder to reach metric. In this case

4 it sounds like the procedure changes, more accurate way

5 to go and -

6 -

7 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I mean it's harder to

8 meet the metric today. But there's -- the test

9 procedure we have doesn't include the -- the benefit.

10 Right?

11 MR. RIVEST: Right.

12 MR. WHITWELL: A test procedure change would

13 make more sense.

14 MR. DOPPEL: Well, there's a whole class of

15 like equipment that treats outside air. Kind of

16 reminds me of this, you know. And everybody --all

17 those kind of things are -- is kind of like one group.

18 Because you're dealing with the reality of outside air

19 introduction, release of air would come from the

20 building. I mean, that would be -- to me, would be one

21 whole class.

22 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, but to us the class means
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1 setting a separate standard. And based on that

2 analysis, of how energy is used in the device.

3 MR. WHITWELL: No, I mean I would suggest

4 treating this like we talked about on the economizer

5 where it really wanted to test a product it would order

6 it without the ERV test that until sometime in the

7 future when we can address it.

8 MR. HUNT: Do we have a dedicated outdoor air

9 -- Marshall of PG&E -- do we have a dedicated outdoor

10 air system standard? I don't think so.

11 MR. AMRANE: I think we do. I think there

12 is.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: We're working on it.

14 MR. AMRANE: We are working on it, yeah.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: But it's not done.

16 MR. AMRANE: Maybe it's not finished yet.

17 MR. HUNT: It's in progress.

18 MR. AMRANE: It's in progress, yes.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: So yeah, right now these would

20 be --

21 MR. WHITWELL: These are somewhere in

22 between.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Somewhere in between. That's

2 one of those that I've asked actually about going to

3 get you an exception for that or what.

4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay.

5 Moving onto the next one. I have coated

6 coils is the next one. Oh, we added this. So we have

7 process heat recovery and reclaim coils. Process heat

8 recovery coil means a heat exchanger located inside the

9 equipment that heats the equipment supply air using

10 heat transferred from an external heat source using a

11 vapor gas or liquid.

12 MR. FLY: So this can recover waste heat and

13 -- off a process or it can recover waste heat off your

14 condenser itself for humidification purposes so it kind

15 of blends in with the dehumidifiers that's coming up.

16 But in either case, it's another coil, another pressure

17 drop.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

19 MR. FLY: In here that you don't get credit

20 for.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

22 MR. FLY: -- during the test operation
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1 because it's not required of the test conditions.

2 MR. SACHS: Depending on the temperature, the

3 upper of those bullets look just like a bordered air

4 coil instead of a gas pack?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: And then there -- there are

6 other systems. They're -- they're not real prevalent.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Made one once.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: No, there's a little bit more

9 than one. But where they reclaim cooling. And so

10 you're using heat here where they're reclaiming

11 cooling.

12 MR. FLY: So and you're promoting heat pump

13 water heaters in place for that cooling to go.

14 MR. SACHS: Unless you got a big process,

15 there's not much there.

16 MR. MARANTAN: Are we okay with that?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: So another whole classification

18 or bullet you need to have there is ice storage. Ice

19 storage.

20 MS. TUCKER: So it's not a water coil?

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, can be water, can be

22 refrigerant. Selling off mode unoccupied hours.
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1 MR. FLY: It's really a load shedding for the

2 utility more than anything else. It's just another

3 coil; right?

4 MR. MYERS: So if you change that process

5 heat recovery coil to process energy recovery coil,

6 that would cover all of those?

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Yeah.

8 MR. MARANTAN: Wouldn't that also take care

9 of reclaimed?

10 MR. MYERS: I'm thinking it takes care of

11 that and --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, it would.

13 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we can eliminate the

14 bottom two.

15 MS. TUCKER: Do we need to change the

16 definition anywhere?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: The -- instead of -- and then

18 means a heat exchanger, which it could just be a

19 generic term of heat exchanger, anything that is

20 exchanging thermal and conditions the equipment

21 supplier.

22 MR. MYERS: And using the energy.
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1 MS. TUCKER: Energy transferred from external

2 -- external source using, just take out heat.

3 MS.HOOTMAN: There you go.

4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So that's a lot more

5 generic. Okay. In terms of impact, we characterize it

6 as medium. And in the -- let's see. Medium's

7 appropriate? Medium, as you recall, is 2 to 10

8 percent. Okay. How about relative volume, similar to

9 the --

10 MS. HOOTMAN:: Call that thermal storage

11 unit. Be more generic.

12 MR. MARANTAN: Thermal. There you go.

13 MS. TUCKER: Thank you.

14 MR. MARANTAN: Relative volume, is this

15 similar to the previous slide where we took this one?

16 Medium low or --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah

18 MR. MARANTAN: -- or medium? No more than

19 medium.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: You've got to have this other

21 source of heat in that -- in that -- in this many

22 applications.
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1 MR. MARANTAN: Is your definition of medium

2 to low the same as what we're using for the impact on

3 energy?

4 MR. AMRANE: So low is up to 2 percent.

5 MR. MARANTAN: The relative volume, I just

6 want to know what you mean by low, low to medium.

7 MALE SPEAKER: Less than 2 percent option.

8 Low option.

9 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. So medium is 2 to 10

10 percent.

11 MR. MARANTAN: 2 to 10. Using the same.

12 Okay.

13 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, we can go with that for

14 now.

15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Test procedure

16 modification. Any options for test procedure

17 modifications? Does guideline B apply?

18 MR. FLY: The source is undefined. It could

19 be anything. So it's going to be hard to run the test.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, if the source is in the

21 building and it's not --

22 MR. FLY: Is it something separate?
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. It's not something that

2 we provided. So we can't tell you what it is. How can

3 I write a test procedure?

4 MR. FLY: Not applicable.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: I can't even tell you if it's

6 linked for gas.

7 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. We'll go with non8 applicable. How about new product classes?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Supermarket units.

10 MR. FLY: I said it just wouldn't be a whole

11 lot of volume in it for product market.

12 MR. MARANTAN: All right. Coated coils.

13 So I'll read off the definition you provided.

14 A coated coil is a condenser, evaporator, or coil

15 having a thin layer, typically .02 inches or less

16 thickness, on the fins or on the fins and tubes of an

17 anti-corrosive material. The anti-corrosive material

18 has minimal thermal impotence, typically not decreasing

19 air to refrigerant heat transfer by more than 5

20 percent. And what we see on the screen says, an indoor

21 coil or outdoor coil whose entire surface, including

22 the entire surface of both fins and tubes, is covered
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1 with a thin continuous non-porous coating to reduce

2 corrosion.

3 MR. WHITWELL: I think that's fine. That --

4 that seems okay to me.

5 MR. MARANTAN: That's all right. Okay. Oh,

6 last time we talked about coated coils, there was a

7 concern about --

8 MR. WHITWELL: It's just the White House

9 trying to figure out what we're saying.

10 MS. MEYERS: We can hear you dialing.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's us.

12 MR. MARANTAN: So last time we were talking

13 about coated coils, there was a mention of a concern

14 that somebody would just spray paint, you know, their -

15 - their coil. Does that address this issue?

16 MR. WHITWELL: Again --

17 MR. MARANTAN: Is there still a concern?

18 MR. WHITWELL: -- I think it's the comment

19 that if -- if this is exempted, then DOE would have the

20 opportunity to order a non-coated coil and test.

21 Right?

22 MR. HURST: Right. You still have a basic
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1 model and you have to test.

2 MR. WHITWELL Yeah. Right. Or you could

3 test.

4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. If we do

5 that, there should probably be something that says, if

6 you have a coated model, you have to have an uncoated

7 model.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Or -- or the coated model

9 needs to meet the minimums.

10 MR. FLY: Exactly.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Exactly. So that somebody

12 doesn't go, I only have coated.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's your basic model.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, that would be the basic

15 model.

16 MS. MEYERS: If you only have -- yeah, I

17 heard Eric say, if you only have coated, it has to meet

18 the minimum.

19 MR. RIVEST: We agree on that one.

20 MR. MARANTAN: Also, there's no mention of

21 minimum thickness. You have a typical thickness

22 described in your definition. We're okay without that?
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: It depends on what kind of

2 process you're using. Some of these are -- can be very

3 thin and so worn. I mean, when you actually get thin

4 stuff, it should be coated.

5 MR. SACHS: Is anodizing coating?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Doesn't do anything for this.

7 MR. SACHS: No, but I could imagine some

8 environments where it -- it would.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, it is coated. It is

10 coating the metal.

11 MR. RIVEST: I think what we have to create

12 is -- is a password for classes in the future to have a

13 differential standard or some other incentive for

14 manufacturers to encoat these in the most efficient way

15 possible. And you wouldn't want -- and I know there

16 are many processes out there to result in a small

17 change efficiency and others are exchanging efficiency.

18 MR. AMRANE: But at the end of the day, how

19 much -- how much are we talking about here in terms of

20 -- of percent to be shipped? I -- I don't think we're

21 talking about a big number.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Hang on. I left that up, too.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Maybe there's some areas in the

2 country where, but.

3 MR. RIVEST: I have coating on mine.

4 MR. AMRANE: You have.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Are you within a mile of the

6 sea coast? You better.

7 MR. FLY: You better.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: You better. You won't have a -

9 - you won't have a coil in the air.

10 MR. SACHS: It's a fairly substantial

11 fraction of population

12 MR. AMRANE: And now, if you take a

13 percentage, yes. I think -- I think product class

14 makes a lot of sense. But if you are talking -- if we

15 are talking of small, I mean, I'm not sure if it's

16 really --

17 MR. RIVEST: Product class avoids people

18 making very inefficient products.

19 MR. AMRANE: Just to be clear, when we're

20 talking about product classes, what I'm envisioning is

21 everything else moves up in efficiency and maybe coated

22 coils and copper coils, if that's a product class,
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1 stays where it is.

2 MS. MEYERS: Of course you do.

3 MR. RIVEST: It goes on not as much.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: No back-sliding. That would

5 be illegal.

6 MR. AMRANE: There's a -- a test procedure

7 change that requires low standards because it happened

8 in the past. But test procedure would lower

9 deficiency.

10 MR. RIVEST: I'm going to lighten it

11 conversation right now.

12 MR. AMRANE: It does that.

13 MR. MARANTAN: I think someone was looking at

14 the volume of products. But while we're doing that,

15 maybe we can do, the product classes I heard are

16 corrosive classes similar to the coppers.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Uh-huh. Yeah, I'm seeing some

18 data on this that is like it's under 10 percent.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Way under 10 percent.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe in the 5 -- 5 percent.

21 Depends on -- the data I have it -- it varies depending

22 on our product family.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Me, too.

2 MR. JOHNSON: So 5 to 8 percent maybe?

3 MR. WHITWELL: No, I think it's --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: I think it's --

5 MR. WHITWELL: -- it's more in the 3 to 5

6 percent I think.

7 MS. MEYERS: Yes.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, my highest is 5.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, all right.

10 MS. MEYERS: But this is another of a product

11 family, not the way you all are defining it.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

13 MS. MEYERS: So.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: This is another one where it's

16 very important to remember that this, you know, test

17 procedure may decrease the efficiency but it actually

18 increases the -- otherwise, you know, your unit's going

19 to be destroyed in less than 12 months.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I mean, we've seen --

21 MS. MEYERS: So this is another really good

22 example of one of those issues that, you know, we just
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1 need to let this one go because it's really as far as

2 energy use in the field is a good thing.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, we've seen units out

4 there that have been out -- and you can see post5 applications for several years and there's no fin slash

6 down to coil. She's got tubes, still runs, but it's not

7 going to be very efficient. It all depends on, you

8 know, how the -- how much salt gets on it or whatever

9 else, whatever other chemicals get on it.

10 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. We do a lot of analysis

11 on pennies and coatings and stuff like that. And this

12 is very important to have it, you know, because you

13 have this warranty on this unit. And so for warranty

14 purposes, you need a lot of analysis, not just on the

15 coil coatings but on the -- the -- the paint that's on

16 your, you know, units all that kind of stuff. So, you

17 know, trying to keep a unit that will perform in a sea

18 coast environment is -- I think all manufacturers spend

19 a lot of time in that area.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yep.

21 MR. SACHS: Good recommendation for ground

22 source.
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1 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The last thing on this

2 slide I think is test procedure modification. And I

3 think is it fair to say NA for that one?

4 MR. STEM: Yeah, I don't think there's --

5 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, we don't need to change

6 this.

7 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. All right. The next

8 one is hail guards. So the definition on that the

9 screen, A perforated sheet or grill with holes whose

10 minimum dimensions are no larger than .3 inches for a

11 louvered assembly that covers externally exposed

12 surfaces of an outdoor coil to protect it from hail or

13 other potential damage from solid objects.

14 MR. FLY: I think that's overly specific.

15 MR. MARANTAN: Too much?

16 MR. FLY: Yeah.

17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So yours is this, A

18 grill or similar structure mounted to the outside of

19 the unit covering the outdoor coil to protect the coil

20 from hail, flying debris, and damage from large

21 objects.

22 MR. FLY: Go with That.
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1 MR. MARANTAN: Simpler.

2 MR. HUNT: Tornados.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Flying objects.

4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The impact we

5 characterize it as low. I think your number was 1 to 3

6 percent.

7 MS. MEYERS: Yeah.

8 MR. MARANTAN: Similar.

9 MS. MEYERS: Yeah.

10 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. How about relative

11 volume? How prevalent are they?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: From the factory?

13 MR. RIVEST: Yeah.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Our volume is actually about

15 around -- somewhere around 10 percent.

16 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, I'd put it at 5 to 10

17 percent category, not the 3 to 5.

18 MR. MARANTAN: 5 to 10 percent of products.

19 MS. MEYERS: Karen it's kind of a growing

20 area, too. Especially on -- on -- on commercial units,

21 this is really market sudden.

22 MR. MARANTAN: One of the things we had in
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1 our definition, it was -- it included the idea of

2 enclosing the entire surface. Is that a concern?

3 MR. WHITWELL: I didn't understand.

4 MR. HUNT: You mean, closing --

5 MR. MARANTAN: Covers.

6 MR. HUNT: Yeah, you're making it too tight.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, that that's what we were

8 just saying is that there are the homemade versions out

9 there that we -- we, as a matter of fact, you really

10 don't like. We would rather them use our option from

11 the factory than --

12 MR. JOHNSON: It looks more like a hood than

13 it does a hail guard. So yeah, that would be a concern

14 that it would go -- that it would cover too much of the

15 surface area.

16 MR. MARANTAN: Is that -- does that need to

17 get included in the definition?

18 MR. JOHNSON: I don't --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, the thing is that once

20 they get to that point, besides obviously it's killing

21 energy, they're going to kill the compressor pretty

22 dang fast.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Well, let's put it this way, a

2 manufacturers not going to do that, I wouldn't think.

3 So I don't know that that would be a concern from a

4 manufacturing concern.

5 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we'll leave it as

6 is, what you see here.

7 MR. FLY: Yeah. Yeah. We want to be in

8 control.

9 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Let's see. Test

10 procedure modification. Any thoughts on that? Remove

11 it?

12 MR. MYERS: Can you just remove it?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Or why even buy it that way?

14 You just spent money on something you don't even use.

15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. We'll go with --

16 MR. MYERS: It's a smart thing to do but from

17 a test procedure, if it has one --

18 MR. WHITWELL: Could be removed.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

20 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. How about a new product

21 class for this? Not applicable?

22 MR. WHITWELL: So should we include -- under
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1 "options for future test fund modification," do we put

2 something in there about removed or do we just?

3 MR. MARANTAN: We can put that in there,

4 under "test procedures." Okay. The next one is

5 dehumidification components. So the definition on the

6 screen is, An extendant that reduces the moisture

7 content of the supply air from which your transfer with

8 solid or liquid desiccants. Does that capture what we

9 need?

10 MR. FLY: Transfer. I mean, we kind of

11 covered the other way that it would be refundable.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

13 MR. MARANTAN: The definition you've provided

14 in your document has a few examples, but I think in

15 general this this captures the ideals.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, uh-huh.

17 MR. FLY: Mark Fly, I wrote that one, too.

18 And I'd covered re -- reheat coils and the same thing.

19 Which, like I said, we kind of already did on another

20 section, so we can just re-organize them.

21 MR. MARANTAN: Are you saying to remove this?

22 MR. FLY: I don't have a problem with that
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1 definition.

2 MR. SACHS: We've already done this.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, what he's saying is in

4 here it included the reheat time.

5 MR. SACHS: So the liquid or what I call

6 regenerative dehumidifier wheels --

7 MR. FLY: Is really what he is talking about

8 here and the -- the difference between that and, say,

9 heat recovery wheels is usually they use heat to drive

10 the moisture out of the -- the desiccant.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

12 MR. FLY: And so they add a sensible heat

13 load back into the system which then has to be -- if

14 it's a -- you're in a cooling mode, you have to add

15 cooling back into the system. So in order to get to

16 real low humidities for some process loads, what I

17 remember from my past was a toner plant in a Xerox

18 facility where they needed twelve grains of moisture in

19 the space so the tonner didn't clump.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

21 MR. FLY: You know, we put a lot of heat back

22 in.
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1 MR. SACHS: Mark, do you foresee these being

2 shipped as integral parts of -- of serious products in

3 the near future?

4 MR. FLY: There are people -- here again, we

5 go back to grocery stores. There's a lot of grocery

6 stores that will have a desiccant dehumidifier fire

7 unit packaging it on a loose -- I don't know what the -

8 -

9 MR. SACHS: Is that a guideline five unit or

10 is it --

11 MR. FLY: No, it's a different animal.

12 Because instead of having exhaust air go through the

13 other half, they actually have a heater -- either a gas

14 heater -

15 MR. SACHS: Okay.

16 MR. FLY: -- or a electric heater and they'll

17 bring air up to somewhere in the range of 400 degrees

18 going through that side. And then it rotates back over

19 and then that heat actually ends up back into the air

20 stream.

21 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry, I wasn't make myself

22 clear. You know, I -- I followed Andy Loenstein's
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1 liquid desiccant stuff, but I visualize that as not

2 being an integrated large HVAC unit but as being --

3 MR. FLY: Separate product class.

4 MR. SACHS: So the question is, are we going

5 to be seeing these as integrated units that would come

6 under the 360 --

7 MR. FLY: Yeah.

8 MR. SACHS: -- 460 classification?

9 MR. FLY: I don't think there's much of that

10 today. I don't know.

11 MR. SACHS: So we could put -- this is a

12 place holder?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: We're getting more and more

14 customers asking us to put it integrated into it.

15 MR. SACHS: Okay.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Right now I will say that we

17 haven't because of other reasons, we don't like the

18 manufacturing reasons and some other reasons.

19 MR. SACHS: But Jill --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: But we're getting comments that

21 they would like us to.

22 MR. SACHS: When you get to that point, you
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1 see being a point where that wheel is -- and it's

2 either interior parts or bolt ons at one end or the

3 other?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: In this case it would have to

5 be integral to the unit.

6 MR. SACHS: That are people like Hard Grove

7 Care that --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly, they're the third

9 party people that would modify it that we would just

10 send them a unit and they go for it. And that's what's

11 happening in actually today probably a little bit with

12 -- with our knowledge and without our knowledge. But

13 we've had requests, I can, you know, think of some

14 customers have that actually asked for this to be

15 integrated into the unit which would actually -- be put

16 on before the roof and all this other kind of stuff

17 gets put on. So it really would be part of the

18 manufacturing of it.

19 MR. SACHS: Okay. Thank you. That's very

20 helpful.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: You know, and -- and I guess

22 we're talking about where -- where this would go put in
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1 is a very specific product family for us, but of the

2 three through -- and 63 tons we're talking about here,

3 this is a small part. But it's a very large unit.

4 It's these units we've talked about that are huge and,

5 you know, as big as this room and all that kind of

6 stuff and have extra sections in them.

7 MR. SACHS: So are you seeing the need for a

8 place holder here or do we have to get very specific

9 about how to proceed?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: This might qualify for -- for a

11 different product class at some point.

12 MR. SACHS: So in the short term, somebody

13 comes in, it would be with a waiver request that would

14 lead eventually to a product test.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It's one of the notes I put to

16 myself is is this a place we do waivers.

17 MR. MARANTAN: So we can move on.

18 MS. BARHYDT: What did we resolve here?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Did we do a waiver on oneoff?

20 That's where I would go. You know, I'm going to make

21 one of these every three years. We do an exemption,

22 the way -- I just don't know -- I don't know about
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1 exceptions from waivers, I have to say.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Hello. We have test procedure

3 waivers that deal with test procedure issues. As far

4 as the standards, that requires Office of Hearing and

5 Appeals exception relief. And it's not possible to get

6 relief from a statutory standard. So it depends on

7 whether the standard was set through DOE rule making or

8 whether the standard was set by statute.

9 MR. FLY: So if we call this a product class,

10 the question becomes is a product.

11 MS. BARHYDT: So if it's a product class,

12 then the Department is setting the standard through

13 rule making. And once the Department has set a

14 standard through rule making, there is the possibility

15 OHAR relief. But I'm not sure that I answered your

16 question.

17 MR. FLY: Yeah, but in this case I think it

18 would be a waiver from the test procedure.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So if it's a test

20 procedure waiver, then you can get a test procedure

21 waiver for -- usually it's -- there's some description

22 of the product for which you're seeking the waiver.
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1 MR. FLY: Right.

2 MS. BARHYDT: And that's usually based on a

3 basic model.

4 MR. FLY: Then I got to think on it now.

5 MS. HOOTMAN Well, that's what I'm saying, how

6 would you test it?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Test it.

8 MR. FLY: You can't take it out. You can't

9 test it with it in as well.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. But if you take a

11 waiver, you cannot take representation about the

12 inefficiency of the product.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Well, if you get a waiver, it

14 tells you how to. --

15 MR. AMRANE: If you haven't done structure

16 test procedure.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

18 MR. SACHS: But we're talking about

19 essentially one-offs for very sophisticated customers.

20 MS. JAKOBS: Right, I mean Mark's example,

21 it's not for -- for cooling of --

22 MALE SPEAKER: People comfort.
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1 MS. JAKOBS: People comfort. It's for

2 process.

3 MS. BARHYDT: So do you --

4 MS. JAKOBS: It's not an air conditioner

5 really. It's --

6 MR. FLY: It would probably be -- the highest

7 use I see is there are people out there doing this for

8 grocery store dehumidification.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep.

10 MR. FLY: So they'll put one of these units

11 on a grocery store and a bunch of other units.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

13 MR. FLY: And it's a dead -- it's

14 dehumidification unit.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

16 MR. FLY: Which to me says it's a -- not an

17 air conditioner, it's a dehumidifier. A lot of times

18 they're not even shooting to do any cooling of it,

19 they're just trying to get the neutral air dryer --

20 neutral temperature air dryer.

21 MS. JAKOBS: There's one on a store of a Wal22 Mart.
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334

1 MR. FLY: There you go.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Every Wal-Mart has one, yeah.

3 That's why they need the drinks at the check-out,

4 because you're awful thirsty when you get there.

5 MR. SACHS: It's not a 360, 460 product, it's

6 a dehumidifier.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, but, you know, the

8 components within in it and what it does, when you

9 would look at its description, if they would describe

10 that unit, it's conditioning the space, it's heating

11 and cooling the space. It's, you know.

12 MR. FLY: They have a six -- 360 product

13 embedded in that.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

15 MR. FLY: Yeah. And that's what I'm saying,

16 there are customers who have asked us to take that and

17 put it in an actual heating and cooling unit as well,

18 which is possible. I'm not saying we haven't done it.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: So how do I make a test

20 exemption for that?

21 MR. MARANTAN: So one of the things that I

22 heard here was that, you know, for the last bullet
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335

1 options for product class, I heard grocery store.

2 MR. FLY: I think it's a different product

3 for --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: They all -- I don't know.

5 MR. SACHS: I just bought a dehumidifier for

6 the house and it's got a compressor in it, too.

7 MR. MARANTAN: All right. Maybe we can knock

8 off a couple of these that we -- we do know.The

9 relative volume is quite low. Right?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: It is low.

11 MR. MARANTAN: And the impacts on the -- the

12 impact on the test procedure measured energy, we

13 characterize it as low to medium. I see in your

14 document you had it from 2 to 15 percent. So that's

15 similar. So low to high.

16 MR. HURST: By definition it would be.

17 MR. MARANTAN: So low to high. Okay. And

18 I'm not sure, but we concluded with the last two

19 bullets. So maybe we can pick up on that tomorrow.

20 MR. AMRANE: That's it.

21 MR. EISNER: A good way to start at 8:00

22 o'clock in the morning.
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336

1 (Whereupon, at 5:59 p.m., the Appliance

2 Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory

3 Committee Meeting was adjourned.)

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Capital Reporting Company 

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

2 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 

3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 

4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 

5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 

6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 

7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 

8 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 

9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 

10 interest in this proceeding. 

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NATALIA THOMAS 

Digital Court Reporter 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

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337 
Capital Reporting Company 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 I, LISA SIKES, hereby certify that I am not 

3 the Court Reporter who reported the following 

4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 

5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 

8 proceeding. 

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G {1:/:2'I~ Date LI SA SIKES 

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338 
Capital Reporting Company 

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 I, WENDY SARDINA, hereby certify that I am 

3 not the Court Reporter who reported the following 

4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 

5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 

8 proceeding. 

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12 =1UlM..- \~ ~ S 

WE

t.J0J1" 

NDY SARDt NA 

Sovck ~ 13 

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Transcriptionist 

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Capital Reporting Company 

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 I, MARY YOUNG, hereby certify that I am not 

3 the Court Reporter who reported the following 

4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 

5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 

8 proceeding. 

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340 
Capital Reporting Company 

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013 

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not 

3 the Court Reporter who reported the following 

4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 

5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 

8 proceeding. 

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SARAH VEACH 

Transcriptionist 

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341 
Capital Reporting Company

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250:19 270:11

approaches

196:19

appropriate

125:10 154:3

261:20 268:17

311:7

appropriately

33:22 34:1

approval 143:8

154:18 157:9

approved 133:7

229:11

approving 156:22

157:1

area 53:3

181:2,3,22

186:15

189:18,21 190:3

193:6 198:7

211:10 212:7

215:20 221:7

230:12 320:19

322:20 323:15

areas 256:3 287:11

303:20 317:1

aren't 37:22 89:21

98:17 113:20

263:22 268:18

269:9 295:4

argue 258:6

301:10

arguing 156:16

argument 53:20

236:18

Aris 3:2 5:6 245:6

arithmetic 213:20

Arlington 1:9

arose 67:2

arrangement

279:2,10 280:11

Ashley 5:3 7:20

20:1 57:19

164:21 188:15

201:14 258:9

271:11 272:7

aside 28:19 216:9

aspect 77:11 85:21

ASRAC 7:13,22

12:4 49:1 71:13

91:12 92:2,12,22

163:2 165:12

166:15,16

170:13 300:22

assembly 135:11

274:3 292:16

298:6,10,17

321:11

assign 20:7

assigned 191:12

associated 34:16

71:16

associating 111:16
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assume 32:4 57:22

96:7 143:6 200:4

220:20

assumed 23:16

98:20

assuming 84:16

92:21 99:12

110:4 117:17

161:22 177:4

200:15

assumption 77:11

99:17 137:13

172:9 202:13

204:13

assumptions 72:16

assurance 18:20

67:15 88:17

asterisk 106:4

123:14 234:4

243:15

269:12,13,14

asterisks 106:7,10

123:15 140:2

225:15 231:18

232:7,12

attention 91:8

140:22 246:12

attributes 245:9

audible 6:13 7:8

auditorium 256:2

aunt 73:10

authority 153:22

154:2,17 157:20

260:9

authorization

154:6,12 157:11

authorize 143:11

authorized 160:19

automatic 130:21

276:16,20 279:3

280:12,13,15

automatically

274:4 276:8,9,13

277:1

auxiliary 299:19

305:11

available 85:10

88:9 113:21

223:13 230:6

262:7 277:20

287:10,14

301:12

average 191:15

avoids 317:17

away 28:20 163:19

257:8

awful 89:22 334:4

awfully 158:8

awkward 279:18

B

baby 5:3

backing 257:4

back-sliding 318:4

backup 57:17

67:17

bad 14:18 15:12

36:22

64:2,8,11,12,15,

18 65:19

67:9,12,16,21

113:1 131:21

132:2,18,19

133:11 136:11

137:12,13

143:22 148:1

150:15 153:21

155:6,7 253:22

badly 26:15

baffle 113:16

baffles 113:3

bailed 86:2

Bakery 4:9

balance 133:3

272:22

balances 89:6

ballasts 195:1

ballistic 228:18

Ballo 2:8 25:21

60:14,19 133:19

134:2 135:3

136:1 137:22

158:6 159:7,14

160:1,5

BALLOW 270:16

271:4,9

bandwidth 68:6

bar 121:9

Barhydt 2:10 4:16

10:1,3,6,12,17,2

1 11:1,15,18

12:1 13:20 15:22

16:3,9,11,21

17:10 18:22 19:4

21:7 22:20 23:2

24:3,13,18

25:4,9 26:6,17

27:2,7

28:5,9,14,16

29:22 30:3 31:22

32:3,22

33:9,13,21

34:1,3,8,13,17,2

2 37:2,6 39:14

40:9,13,15,18

41:9,18 42:8

43:8,11,15

44:1,12,16,19

45:14 46:2,15

47:6,15,20,22

48:9,11,18,21

49:4,10,12,17,22

50:4 51:2 52:13

54:2,12,19,21

55:15,20

56:2,6,10,14

57:14,20 58:2,5

62:19 63:12,21

64:3,16 66:10,17

71:12,17

72:3,12,17,20

73:1 74:8

75:11,14,18

80:13,17 83:21

84:4,6,10

91:7,10,18

92:1,6

94:2,16,21

95:4,8 96:8,11

97:4,6,9,11,17,2

0 98:13

100:6,15,18

101:4,11 102:1

104:12,20

105:1,6

106:7,11,20

108:10,12,15,20

109:20 110:8

111:9,13,18,21

112:2,9,16

117:17 118:6

119:12,17,20

120:5,20

121:4,7,15

122:6,9,19,21

123:3 126:20,22

127:2,4

129:18,21 130:2

131:16

132:12,20

133:8,17,22

138:9 139:8

142:18
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144:15,21

145:3,10

146:5,12,16

147:10,16

148:2,4,7,19

149:12,15,22

152:7 154:10

155:18 156:22

157:10,13

158:10

159:10,13,18

160:6,9,15,18

161:3,9

162:8,11,13,19

164:1,9 166:2,5

168:4 170:19,22

171:2,19,21

172:1,11,15,22

173:5,9 174:2,4

176:10

178:17,22

179:4,8 180:1,13

181:3,12,21

182:5,9,12,14

183:4,11,17,21

184:3,11 185:9

187:6

188:8,12,14

189:13 190:1,7

195:5,10,17

196:6,10

199:16,19,21

200:3,10,16

201:3,6,9,11,18

202:6,9,16,21

204:14,17

206:13,16,21

207:15

209:11,16

210:1,10,14

214:20 215:4

216:4,20

217:4,7,10,14,19

218:15 220:4

221:17,21

222:5,21

223:6,10

224:6,9,19 227:3

228:9,12,15,19

229:3,21

230:16,22

231:4,6 232:18

233:2,6,20

234:9,15

236:11,13

237:1,7,13,15,20

238:21 239:5,19

240:5

241:8,10,18

244:5 246:7

249:12

253:2,6,12,15

254:6,21

255:1,7,21

256:10 263:4,8

264:3,19

265:3,5,10

270:15,21 271:7

272:4,10 273:15

276:17

286:7,12,18,22

287:4

289:11,16,19

290:3,19 293:1,4

295:13,22 296:2

298:13,19

300:16,20

301:2,8 302:6,11

326:3,11,20

330:18

331:2,11,19

332:2,7,13,17

333:3

barrel 177:18

base 37:13 46:18

199:19 203:9

254:15 270:5

based 15:5 17:2

36:13 41:9,10

47:9 60:11 69:17

83:5 110:11

111:1 116:20,22

117:15 128:15

133:6 136:2

144:7 155:21

157:19 171:9

182:11 190:2,3

193:2 199:7,13

200:17,21

202:13,14

204:12 224:22

235:9 245:10

251:11

254:16,22

277:19 307:1

332:2

basic 10:6,11

11:4,20,21

13:6,17

14:4,5,20

20:15,18

23:11,13,17,21

24:5,7,9 25:6,19

30:21 37:18

55:18 56:4 58:22

71:8 73:19 75:21

76:1,17 81:10,11

82:4

99:3,4,12,14

100:10,12

102:8,9,19,20

103:8,11,16,22

104:5,7,9,11,14,

16,22 105:18

117:18 123:16

124:8 142:8

145:13,19

146:2,4,15,21

147:5 151:1

160:13,22

161:1,5,10

164:15 165:9

166:2,4,5 170:20

171:1,3

172:9,13,16

173:2,13

176:3,4,6

177:1,2,11

178:19 179:15

180:5 181:13

182:21

183:2,5,9,10,12,

20,21

184:1,7,9,13

185:10 188:22

190:10,22 191:1

192:17,21

195:7,20,22

196:1,4,21

199:4,8,11,17,18

200:5,12,14,16,2

0,21 201:1,8

202:2,8

203:17,18

208:20,22 209:4

210:9,11 213:14

214:16,17,18,20

215:6 218:19

220:13,15

221:1,6,9 223:11

225:6 226:16

227:10,13 230:8

235:17 237:3

240:16,19

256:16 303:17

314:22

315:13,14 332:3

basically 9:11

40:18 41:3 46:17

58:8 72:5 75:15

103:3,6 121:10

146:18 148:20

152:13

157:13,16 166:8

167:4 182:15

190:16 195:18

242:21 252:21
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281:2 293:6

299:13 304:6,10

basing 199:6

basis 14:6 22:5

38:1 39:1 181:6

185:21 209:22

265:18

basket 29:7 100:14

batch 86:3

bated 236:10

Bauman 2:9 35:9

37:4,9 38:16

42:21

43:10,14,22

44:3,17,21 45:18

57:10,15,21 58:3

80:20 127:7

131:20

132:14,22

133:9,16 166:21

167:9,17 168:7

195:19 196:7

210:12,15

212:8,11,13,17

214:13,22 215:9

216:8

Bear 111:17

beat 67:4

beating 114:20

become 212:21

216:17

becomes 44:22

100:12 122:3

136:8,9 153:11

176:2 281:3,6

331:10

becoming

302:18,20

bed 273:11

begin 83:4 218:14

beginning 12:8

15:9 35:21 58:21

59:1 79:2 80:2

93:12 246:14

beginning-of-theyear 36:15

behind 4:3 7:4

75:22

believe 64:21

166:18 197:8

246:19

bells 76:20

77:18,21 123:21

belong 296:11

belongs 205:3

290:13

benefit 208:13

244:21 245:2

251:12 270:1

306:9

besides 323:20

best 88:15 93:17

better 26:15

36:8,14,17 37:13

45:12 105:8

111:15 112:3

136:15 148:10

197:18

228:6,7,11,13,17

,20 246:22

250:9,21,22

257:20,22

279:12 288:21

289:3 317:6,7,8

beyond 27:19 67:9

bifurcation 280:13

bigger 52:2 55:12

81:19 90:12

121:13 266:11

269:6

biggest 64:16

bit 6:17 13:15

35:19 36:2

44:4,12 53:2

73:16 87:4 119:3

211:15 213:10

220:12 251:4

262:2 266:6

309:8 329:11

black 204:6,8

bladders 274:18

blades 283:1,4

blanks 92:2,5,7,9

178:6,11

blends 308:15

blower 305:7

blowers 85:11,16

Blvd 1:7

board 298:14

boardroom 90:6

boat 73:15 82:4

Bob 12:20 139:20

151:21 275:5

287:7 288:11

boiled 233:3,8

boiler

9:1,8,9,13,14

10:4 73:22

boilers 8:22 105:5

bolded 300:22

bolt 283:22 288:22

329:2

bolts 88:5

booked 39:6

bordered 309:3

bottom 23:2 104:9

310:14

bought 335:5

bound 137:8

box 20:5 153:16

165:12 262:14

266:21 284:1

298:17

boy 86:7 305:18

brainwashed

89:20

brand 174:1,3,4,6

brands 222:6,11

break 50:9 70:17

127:11

140:11,13,15,20

244:12 246:6,9

breath 236:10

BRF 242:15

brick 93:17

brief 71:3 246:10

bring 39:3 48:5

64:6,7 98:6

109:14 115:9

116:10 153:6

299:22 327:17

brings 275:14

broad 81:15

138:12 153:18

214:3 293:5

broader 262:10

broadest 215:7

broke 150:18

Brooks 138:11

brought 116:2,18

117:2 264:22

brush 214:3

B's 177:10
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BTUH 243:11

budget 22:1

51:9,20 52:20

60:5,6,12,16

81:13 121:13

150:3 209:8,9

budgets 44:22

build 64:17

128:2,3 152:15

154:21 174:13

177:17 193:13

203:10,12

235:17 282:1

285:9

building 4:10

176:15,22

266:8,11 274:6

278:9,11 283:19

292:19 305:13

306:20 312:21

buildings 285:9

built 17:5 45:16

58:6 127:4

152:12,16

built-to 85:5

bullet 218:8

309:18 334:22

bullets 309:3

335:19

bunch 52:6 77:12

211:21 333:11

burden 150:6

183:6

business 90:15,16

120:12 124:11

162:1 216:2

businesses

87:13,14

buy 120:20 258:11

267:3 270:6

324:13

buying 53:11

231:15

bypass 272:19

297:20

bypassed 270:20

C

cabinet 188:20

215:20

calculate 182:6

214:1

calculating 180:18

calculation 304:10

calendar 6:20

7:1,7,10 20:4

35:22

36:10,13,20

37:13,18 38:9,11

39:1,4 58:18,19

59:20

cap 69:21

capability 118:15

capacitor 265:13

267:15,17

272:16

capacitors 264:22

265:12,20

266:7,21 267:4,6

268:21 270:19

272:21

capacity 51:19

146:4,7 152:5

192:20 218:18

219:3 240:17

241:4 242:16

282:11

Capital 1:18

capture 214:6

325:8

captures 325:15

carbon/hydrogen

9:11

card 5:12 106:11

cards 4:20

care 32:14 55:22

56:1,3 61:1 70:1

98:2 154:20

198:10 214:12

234:11 274:9

310:8,10 329:7

career 89:15

careful 241:7

Carrier 3:15 12:21

172:14 275:6

287:7

case 10:10 30:8,11

33:5 44:17 78:10

84:22 111:11

112:21 113:4

133:6 154:14

156:20 175:2,5

177:13 179:16

181:10

185:19,20

190:11,13 191:7

194:8 195:2,3

196:14,15

197:1,2,3,4,5,6,1

3,14,15,16,19,20

,21 198:1,14

200:7 204:15

211:2,12 212:8

213:19 220:19

230:14 241:15

260:5 263:14

270:10 287:3,8

306:3 308:16

329:4 331:17

cases 185:2 190:14

191:6 192:11

193:14 194:20

199:14 209:1,8,9

210:4,7,19 213:9

216:16 230:5

251:4

Cat 111:17

catalogs 225:13

catalogues 184:15

catch 127:15

128:10

catching 65:20

categorize 273:16

category 191:6

214:3 215:16

264:1 322:17

cause 96:14

141:22

142:21,22

143:2,13 146:18

251:7 252:1

caused 78:3

250:11 265:21

causes 23:18

142:20 268:11

269:1

causing 35:7 142:2

147:8 299:17,18

305:12

caustic 256:8

certain 7:21 9:1

14:4 18:19 58:22

108:7 129:2

142:4 143:3

162:13 207:22

215:15 251:21

269:22

certainly 86:13

172:8 221:4
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certainty 91:16

CERTIFICATE

337:1 338:1

339:1 340:1

341:1

certificated 304:12

certification 34:18

58:14,15

105:12,14

120:11 160:21

161:11,14

173:21 200:5,17

209:19 210:2,3

229:18

certifications

157:17

certified 13:18

14:5 20:18 25:5

161:12 189:3

195:22

certify 36:16 82:21

120:13 178:18

195:19,20 196:1

210:10 337:4

338:2 339:2

340:2 341:2

certifying 79:13

157:19 176:17

210:4 224:22

cetera 154:5 241:1

245:19

CFM 239:1,15

chain 112:12

113:7,8,12

114:19 115:4

135:7

chair 12:18

Chairman 12:12

challenge 68:15,16

169:3 170:3

198:12

challenged 168:12

chambers 285:8

chance 43:5

139:15

chances 50:19

65:14 142:16

156:9

change 23:2

29:11,20 30:12

31:3,11 60:13

73:21 75:22

80:6,10,13 81:1

135:18 144:9

154:10 178:1

191:15 192:20

206:13 210:3

213:5 216:18

251:1 267:2

270:13 272:1

273:12 289:20

306:12 310:4,15

316:17 318:7

321:5

changed 29:8

32:13,14,18 76:2

77:15 78:13

129:9

changes 6:19

163:3 173:19

175:16,21 211:8

306:4

changing 76:4

285:6 297:8

302:22 303:1

channel 68:6

230:6 232:13

238:14

character 50:6

characteristic

242:17

characteristics

188:9 191:20

194:15 195:4

216:14,18 240:7

characterization

189:17

characterize

249:6,7 280:19

311:5 322:5

335:13

charger 235:11

Charles 2:16

263:20

Charlie 50:5

51:8,9 52:18

64:1 67:13

108:1,2 109:4

207:19 213:17

214:14 215:1,13

263:21

chart 12:18 33:19

34:11 52:11,16

60:15 69:17 90:2

97:13 99:3

101:18 131:13

163:1,7,10,12,13

166:13 170:12

247:9

cheat 215:10

cheating 127:10

check 29:15 32:7

38:12 66:3 81:17

137:2 188:15

270:4

checking 29:22

34:15,20 76:21

77:2 120:1 157:4

check-out 334:3

checks 89:6,7

111:12 158:16

checkup 61:18

chemicals 252:1

320:9

chillers

269:2,4,5,9

chlorine 256:7,9

choice 23:20 28:21

205:7

choices 127:1

131:2

choose 14:14,15

117:21,22

chooses 272:20

chose 55:17 304:1

chosen 15:3

chuck 215:7

chunk 74:17,21

churning 194:18

circling 95:2

circumstance

29:5,6 136:8

154:15

circumstances

155:3

claim 221:7

claims 66:5

clamp 268:9

clarification 100:9

158:1 166:22

229:22

clarified 214:14

clarify 186:6

class 56:4 145:2,6

146:8,11

147:15,20

150:11
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158:18,21 159:2

183:19,22 205:4

213:7,8

259:16,22 260:4

262:22 268:20

269:10

290:13,19

296:11

306:14,21,22

317:13,17,22

324:21 328:3

330:11 331:9,11

335:1

classes 11:16

14:2,3 106:19

144:14,15 145:8

147:13 150:14

152:3

158:14,15,16,20

183:19 191:11

260:22 261:10

263:13 292:1

305:22 306:1,2

313:8 316:12

317:20

318:15,16

classification

309:17 328:8

class-specific

152:5

clause 161:21

cleaning 296:4

clear 84:15 102:20

138:1 156:17

161:19 167:10

203:22 221:5

237:22 245:4

246:19 256:16

317:19 327:22

clear-cut 218:10

clearly 11:10

100:1 140:17

172:19 256:19

Cleaver 138:11

Cleaver-Brooks

3:3

client 231:14

269:21

climate 284:16

303:2

climates 282:15

clock 43:1,5,13

79:5,11

close 212:9 225:16

263:8

closer 108:1 256:6

closing 323:4

clothes 213:12

clump 326:19

Co 2:19 3:4

coast 317:6 320:18

coated 232:13

233:13 235:1

260:1 308:5

313:12,14

314:6,13

315:6,8,12,17

316:4,9 317:21

coating

257:15,16,19

314:1 316:5,10

317:3

coatings 260:1

320:11,15

code 4:7 73:8

74:12,14,17,21

75:21 76:1 81:19

284:12 286:3,9

302:22

codes 278:9

coffee 4:3,5

coil 134:17,20

135:13,15 147:2

232:1,14,16,17

237:18

238:14,15

248:6,14,15,21

251:5 254:13

255:8,18 256:4

257:17 258:4,13

308:8,16

309:4,20 310:3,5

313:14,21

314:15,20 317:9

320:6,15

321:12,19

coils 67:6 192:2

218:5,6 230:2,6

233:13 235:1

236:11 238:3,5,6

240:6,8 241:1

247:21,22 248:5

256:17 260:4

263:18 308:6,7

313:12 314:6,13

317:22 325:18

cold 188:10 279:5

collapsed 188:21

collect 209:17

colorful 87:11

column 13:13

19:22 21:14,15

61:4,6 93:21

106:15,21

115:20 117:3,7

120:19 121:6

122:1 123:6

124:5,19 140:8

columns 20:7

21:13 24:16

94:1,3 120:19

combination

250:12 305:2

combinations

19:9,10,16

55:4,8 122:12,13

123:1

combine 180:4

304:14

combined 296:21

305:7

combustion 73:22

comes 17:19 23:22

42:10 73:13

137:2,4 197:18

264:13 330:13

comfort 65:5

332:22 333:1

comfortable 19:5

21:14 45:6,8

50:9 61:7,15

152:17 166:7

comical 98:1

coming 4:20 32:2

53:17 74:19 75:6

79:7 95:13,22

176:5,13 274:10

291:11 302:18

308:15

comment 6:6,10

92:14 93:5,7

128:12,13

167:11,15

168:19 169:8,15

230:4 236:19

244:15

246:15,18

314:18

commentary

87:12

comments 5:20 6:7

8:20 12:10
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107:22 115:19

141:2 145:9

155:9 158:4

161:16

164:19,21

167:5,16

169:19,20

244:14 250:17

263:19 328:20

commerce 115:12

commercial 10:3

23:5,8 28:1

51:22 55:10

59:17 72:22

85:9,18 89:1

153:19 172:5

179:7 186:13

220:9 264:3

322:20

commercially

202:5

commissioning

138:16 139:2

committee 1:4

5:17 7:18 8:14

169:7 177:15

336:3

commodities 88:4

common 215:18

218:3,7 241:3,5

243:15 300:6

communicating

111:15

companies 51:12

99:20 198:18

company 1:18

38:3,5 54:10

65:6 85:16

137:13

177:10,17

208:16 214:4

company's 177:2

comparable

218:4,5 219:14

221:18,22

222:10,16,17

227:19,21 228:5

230:16,20

238:2,21 239:22

241:1,2

compared

59:11,14 125:2

143:4

comparing 120:19

compatible 193:4

compensate

133:16

competitive 90:12

compiled 258:20

complaints

64:5,11

complete 39:4

338:7 339:7

340:7 341:7

completed 39:13

155:15

completely

63:20,21 73:9,15

84:14 119:5

122:2 153:22

189:17 201:18

203:7 207:17

completion

47:15,17,18

complex 126:1,6

complexity 24:17

compliance 71:19

177:15 197:19

198:8 209:15

compliant 64:22

complicated 23:19

94:4 233:17

271:15

complication

88:19

comply 197:21

component 77:13

113:1 131:22

132:3,5,9,17,21

133:4,11,20

134:5,12 139:4

238:5

components

85:5,16 87:20

89:9 133:2,5

136:17,22

193:14 240:8

245:14 298:15

302:17 325:5

334:8

compress 62:16

145:14

compressor 35:6

77:6 192:2,20

221:18,22

222:12

227:17,20

228:21 229:6,7

241:1 256:18

323:21 335:6

compressors 193:7

226:1,15 240:5,7

comprisable 230:9

computer 81:11

217:22

concept 30:17

57:15 74:10

75:10 99:4 102:8

193:5 216:10

304:14

concepts

207:14,18

conceptual 17:12

conceptually 15:5

26:14 210:2,14

concern 18:4

19:20

24:13,19,20 40:5

42:8 51:11

60:18,19 64:16

70:20 86:17

102:21 121:13

136:2 154:20

158:6 159:13

188:6 193:20

220:16 301:5

314:7,13,17

323:2,13 324:3,4

concerned 18:16

33:16 57:13

137:20 165:6

186:6 194:2

198:16

concerning 8:21

60:3

concerns 22:13

38:8 68:4 71:2

120:16 133:1,11

141:6 247:3

260:20

concluded 43:7

335:18

condenser 232:17

237:18 247:22

248:15 254:13

263:18 308:14

313:14

condensing 218:5

230:2

condition 240:4

252:7 285:17

297:3
Capital Reporting Company

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conditioner

248:7,21 272:20

333:4,17

conditioning

264:5 334:10

conditions 77:8

96:5 100:4

227:22

277:17,20 278:2

279:17,20 280:8

284:15 297:20

299:17 309:1

310:20

conduct 155:13,19

156:1

conducted 47:4

81:22 82:1

conducting 206:20

conference 49:7

confidence 82:11

confident 17:21

configurations

103:1

confirm 28:22

57:18

confirmed 57:18

conflate 215:5

confused 48:10

49:11 191:18

confusing 144:12

confusion 54:16

193:19,21 194:1

connected 267:6

connection 265:14

connectivity

257:20

consecutive 36:17

125:18,19

consensus 221:11

consequence 26:9

121:3,4,20

145:21

consequences

20:16 30:10,16

89:20 106:17

110:3

116:6,13,21

118:7 120:18

129:13 130:14

137:19 142:11

consider 52:17

98:19 190:22

259:9

consideration

162:20 182:22

considered 37:22

174:1 214:16

226:2 294:17

consistent 99:4,14

102:8 169:16

172:4 194:4

constant 41:3

190:9,15,17,19,2

1 191:9 194:9,12

constantly

28:13,15 53:20

83:9

constitutes 238:21

constraints 48:15

51:20

Consultants 2:15

Consulting 2:3

consumers 128:22

129:6

consumption

129:1 179:20

180:14,15,16

182:1,3 183:1

185:14

186:6,10,11,22

187:5,6,7,14,17

189:2 191:21

195:11,14 198:4

199:9,11,13

209:4

211:4,11,13

213:3 229:9

239:4

contactors 274:22

contain 19:9

contained 50:8

54:18 55:13

101:2

containment 55:4

contains 19:16

content 157:1

325:7

contentious 257:6

context 95:9 262:2

continent 73:16

contingent 71:7

continually 51:13

continue 58:12

continued 26:2

continuing 113:17

continuity 250:22

continuous 314:1

continuously

274:5

contract 59:13

contracting 59:16

contractor 53:12

contractual 177:4

control 17:17 31:5

33:9 86:9,11

96:4 143:16

149:5 220:14

266:12 269:4

279:3 286:1

298:14 299:1

324:8

controlled 144:4

controls 133:12

276:8,9,16

280:13

convenience

235:20

convergence 48:7

conversation

258:9 318:11

Conversely 292:12

convince 132:16

cool 275:7

cooling 2:14 146:9

218:18 219:3

240:17 241:4

275:8 278:21

279:3,5,16

309:9,11,13

326:14,15

332:21 333:18

334:11,17

COP 249:20

copies 5:18 163:18

copper 24:22

230:14 232:14

237:1,12 238:15

247:21

248:3,5,7,13,14,

22 250:20,22

251:3,7 254:13

255:5,8,17 256:3

257:22 258:4

259:18 260:4

263:6,17 264:8
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317:22

coppers 318:16

copy 163:15,16

217:16,17

core 68:20,21

229:2 257:17

Corey 3:14 5:5

corner 4:9 12:14

Corporation

3:10,15

correct 13:12

26:13 29:1,2

34:13 66:9 70:12

107:4 131:15

138:20 139:5

185:6 193:1

194:16,19 204:5

205:5 265:20

287:22 305:4

338:7 339:7

340:7 341:7

corrected 142:5

correcting 220:16

correction 264:21

265:11,20

266:7,21 267:20

270:19

corrective 142:3

143:1

correctly

135:12,13

155:12

corrects 269:21

corresponding

20:7

corrosion 248:3

251:21 252:1

260:6 314:2

corrosive 259:17

318:16

Cosi 4:10

cost 149:21 151:10

198:18

252:17,21,22

253:1,3

259:18,19

263:1,3,12

costly 151:1

costs 53:14 90:10

Council 3:8

count 45:21 47:18

84:13 106:12

251:1

counted 103:5

111:7

country 26:19

85:13 86:7 317:2

counts 46:22

couple 4:18 12:21

16:8 52:10 89:18

119:21

158:15,16 165:4

251:15 281:14

301:18 335:8

course 37:21,22

318:2

court 168:13 169:4

337:1,2,15

338:3,5 339:3,5

340:3,5 341:3,5

cover 19:14 55:8

81:16 173:6

249:14 251:14

293:1,7 310:6

323:14

covered 29:7

30:22 51:21 53:8

99:5,6 116:3

138:12 150:14

234:16,18

269:10 293:9

313:22

325:11,18

covering 33:7

106:18 215:15

220:5 321:19

covers 116:5,15,16

121:18,21

122:11,20

125:14 181:4

226:21 230:3

282:21 291:21

321:11 323:5

cracks 51:14

crafted 11:7

crashing 267:4

CRE 179:11,12,13

187:15,18

188:10 189:13

190:2,7 196:1

207:10 210:18

212:9 217:8

create 35:12 64:19

69:20 81:2 110:6

252:20 316:11

created 172:12

218:9 259:16

creating 226:9

256:19

credit 260:12

261:14,22 287:1

308:19

credits 260:10

261:11

CREs 183:19

236:15

criminal 34:22

criteria 13:18

99:9,19

102:12,14,15,16

108:10 208:2

cross-section

185:5

Crosstalk 5:9

crummy 136:4

cubic 214:8 215:15

current 180:6

196:10 222:22

265:17,21

268:7,11

currently 65:12

66:3 70:6 180:4

301:11

curve 259:18

custom 85:5

custom-built

112:7 113:11

customer 128:21

138:20 211:20

231:17 260:5

customers 305:10

328:14 329:14

332:19 334:16

customer's 153:5

customized 61:11

cut 73:5 135:1

256:16

cutoff 56:16,19

cycle 155:16,22

265:19

Cymbalsky 2:11

5:2,10 51:7

52:21 53:5,8,11

57:8 92:3,5,10

93:5,9,12,15

160:4 165:9

217:18,20

224:12 225:2
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314:11 315:13

318:4

D

dah 243:12

Daikin 2:20

damage 138:19

139:4 321:13,20

damaged 134:12

283:5

damper 245:13

279:2,6,7 280:11

283:1

dampers

274:3,4,16,21

275:11,22

276:1,5 282:21

301:5

Dane 2:12

dang 323:22

darn 86:14 206:15

data 11:8 46:18

68:11 79:8 83:6

95:7,10 96:12,20

97:2,3

98:8,10,11

108:6,7 109:13

110:6,20 111:15

112:4

119:18,21,22

129:19 143:18

146:1 158:3

198:22 291:7

318:18,21

database 189:1

199:2 225:14

231:10 243:9

date 42:6 46:6

47:18 338:13

339:12 340:11

341:14

dates 42:3

day 33:15 47:5,19

65:1 88:8 89:4

129:4,5 213:4

215:15 316:18

days 36:21 44:14

63:2,3,4 110:14

124:1 136:11

297:21

dead 333:13

deadlines 110:9

deal 48:1 64:18

116:15,17

117:20 270:9

271:1,2 331:3

dealing 67:4

306:18

dealt 54:13

death 158:11

162:4

debris 321:20

debugging 138:17

139:3

decide 6:3 7:17

17:15 58:11

154:2

decided 219:6

decision 90:15,17

216:2 277:19

decision-making

153:22

declare 80:1 82:7

declared 83:1,3

decrease 251:10

319:17

decreasing 282:11

313:18

dedicated 307:8,9

deemed 40:7 41:16

default 160:20

defective

132:8,17,21

133:4,20,22

134:5,9 139:4

defend 108:9

deficiency 138:18

139:7 227:12,14

245:1 318:9

define 53:18 64:2

82:15 100:13

106:15 107:3

110:2 118:19

123:13 134:9

138:7 182:2

201:8,22 230:18

244:4,5

defined 59:5,6,7

61:11,17 62:4

90:20 101:17

144:16 180:21

185:1 191:2

196:12,13

239:10,11

265:15 292:19

defines 181:7

defining 184:9

199:11 203:17

208:20 260:4

319:11

definitely 44:7

110:17 293:12

definition 10:6

23:18,22 24:5,7

71:9 99:3 100:21

102:7 124:8

133:15

144:13,20 147:6

164:15 171:17

172:17,21

181:14 182:18

184:13 187:12

196:22 199:4,8

200:12,13,14

201:1,10,11,15

202:8 203:17

209:5 216:22

218:17 219:3,15

221:10 222:22

224:21 225:12

227:7,8 229:6

242:15 244:6

245:4,15 247:20

248:2 265:12,19

266:1,7 273:20

274:3,12 275:18

276:3 277:5

278:13,22

279:12,22

292:9,21

293:5,16 294:8

296:20

297:10,13

310:16 312:1

313:13 315:22

321:8 323:1,17

325:5,13 326:1

335:16

definitions 99:6,13

146:3

171:4,9,13,16,22

173:2,7,11,13

178:5,11 181:18

193:16 220:17

246:2 249:10

293:7 295:14

301:1

definition's 294:5

degradation

262:7,11

degree 15:3

degrees 283:5
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284:19 327:17

dehumidification

256:5 325:5

333:8,14

dehumidifier

326:6 327:6

333:17 334:6

335:5

dehumidifiers

308:15

delay 39:10 44:7

46:9

delays 36:12

delete 119:11,12

deleted 130:11

225:14 265:5

deliver 61:12

62:21 63:4

delving 30:3

demand 269:1

demanding 277:18

Department 1:1

2:10,11 3:2,7,14

5:15 47:7 64:18

91:13 118:16,21

202:22 226:7

271:21

331:12,13

Department's

110:10,20

depend 44:22

55:13 81:15

dependent 277:8

depending 20:14

24:5 84:14

100:12 117:14

142:8 182:13

194:22 250:19

294:7 309:2

318:21

depends 16:13,14

23:10,21 31:14

55:3 105:1 223:4

279:17 286:15

301:17 316:1

318:21 320:7

331:6

derived 225:5,6

descet 301:21,22

describe 233:16

243:18 245:18

261:16 334:9

described 231:9

245:11 315:22

describes 74:6

77:7

describing 74:8

301:19

description 30:22

211:3 246:2,3

331:21 334:9

descriptions

244:18

descriptor 238:1

deserves 121:20

Deshawn 179:14

desiccant 326:10

327:6 328:1

desiccants 325:8

design 173:18

175:4,6,10

176:22 223:13

257:3 301:18

designed 258:13

designs 11:9

245:16

301:18,19

destroyed 319:19

detail 220:1

246:21

detailed 234:2

details 69:14

detained 229:13

determination

42:18 43:12,21

46:4 63:6,13

120:22 130:10

131:11 135:9

136:2

determination's

136:6

determine 211:4

230:20 245:9

determined 82:9

develop 33:20

118:8 131:8

developed 107:14

156:14

developing 48:4

156:8,11

Development 3:3

device

219:14,19,22

275:1,3,4,21

276:15,16,22

279:10 280:13

294:9 298:21

306:3 307:2

devices 221:2

275:10 292:10

devise 300:6

DFDs 266:2

diagram 48:4

dialing 314:10

Diane 2:19 33:18

78:1 87:1 88:18

287:22

dice 215:5,8

dichotomy 88:2

dictates 88:20

die 251:7

died 114:17

dies 75:16,17

difference 9:1,7

11:11 59:9 162:1

195:21 196:7

211:1 226:12

227:6 302:6,7

326:8

different 6:22

10:11 11:19 14:2

19:14 20:15

24:5,22 25:1

26:4 34:11,19

35:8 50:17 59:12

73:8,9,13 74:7

79:14 83:8 85:11

88:5 89:3,5 95:1

96:16 97:11 99:6

102:15,16

103:19 106:17

111:22 112:11

115:17

116:20,22 118:1

119:13,16

122:2,15 128:5

129:4 145:11

146:3,4 147:13

158:13 171:19

174:5 176:4,6

179:21,22

180:5,15 181:5

183:2,3,4,12,16

184:16 185:1,14

186:7,19 188:20

190:1,12,17

191:8,9,11
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192:8,9,16,22

193:6,7,8

194:5,10 195:2,7

196:12 197:9

199:10 200:6

201:1 202:7

208:1 209:13

210:7,8,10

211:6,7,16

213:14,15 215:6

218:20 221:1,2

222:3,6

223:16,20,22

226:1,10,11

232:15,20

233:13 243:19

260:16,18 262:4

268:10

274:19,20

275:19 287:5

289:14,15 290:1

291:5 294:1

298:2,5 303:21

327:11 330:11

335:2

differential 134:20

316:13

differentiations

225:11

differently

10:18,19 112:17

168:21 180:2

difficult 14:8

98:17 104:21

142:9 217:13

257:6 272:22

286:17,18 290:6

difficulty 93:22

diffuse 302:17

digging 129:21

digit 232:12,17

Digital 337:15

digits 225:12

232:2

dimensions 321:10

diode 97:15

dip 257:18

direct 250:20

292:17

directed 8:9

direction 68:8

294:12,14 337:6

directly 149:4

disagrees 169:12

discharge 229:10

disconnected

273:3,5,6,8,10

discounting 128:6

discovered 78:3

discretion 117:20

154:1,7,13,19

158:7,22 159:15

161:22

discuss 24:12 61:5

66:18 95:8,13

117:4 139:17

179:10 217:9

246:21 251:16

discussed 24:11

139:9 166:14

247:4 261:21

263:12 291:9

discussing 180:11

discussion 22:10

23:12,22 30:21

38:2,8 54:3

58:12 61:9 66:19

71:10 94:16,17

95:22 96:17

98:16 99:16

106:5 108:13,22

130:18 133:1

135:4 136:9

142:12 148:21

149:1,4 150:5

199:7 201:7

202:7,12,18

229:22 233:21

235:15 236:7,8

251:15 258:20

289:15 290:2

304:15,18

discussions 36:11

37:11 42:17

131:1,21

132:2,16 199:5

200:19 262:10

disintegrates

256:9

dismantle 289:4

display 179:16

181:2,3,22 185:2

186:15

189:18,21

190:3,14 191:6,7

192:11 193:6,14

194:20

196:14,15

197:13 198:6

211:10 212:7

disposal 131:10

dissenting 168:11

dissimilar 248:4

256:8

distinct 99:9

102:12 108:10

117:19

distinction 34:4

193:11

distinctions

218:10

distributed 85:13

distribution 86:16

288:12

diverge 176:7

diversity 23:6,7

divide 198:3

divided 265:16

division 213:21

document 42:5

53:18 149:2

155:4 164:8

166:13 247:6

249:7 280:18,20

325:14 335:14

documentation

74:6 175:6

documented

137:19

documents 5:18

6:4

DOE 6:17,20 7:17

8:11 9:5 13:15

15:19 17:19

18:6,16

21:2,17,19 22:3

26:14 30:13

36:14 41:21

48:14 50:11

52:10,19 54:14

59:10,15

60:1,10,11,22

61:17 62:11

65:11 66:1

67:5,16 68:7,14

69:21 70:15

81:13 82:1

87:3,9 88:14

95:4,5,12

96:3,12 97:2
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98:6 104:5

105:14,22

109:13 114:15

115:10,14,15

120:20 123:20

125:6,11 127:15

129:17 132:2

135:7 136:9

138:2 139:1

143:7,12 149:5

150:6 153:2,22

154:1,5,11,12

156:20 157:8,11

158:7 159:15

160:18 161:22

164:7 167:7

168:18 169:7

182:10 185:1

188:22 189:2

198:12 201:2

206:11 208:17

220:5 222:22

246:22

289:7,9,12

314:19 331:7

DOE-approved

69:17

doers 36:17

DOE's 13:3 52:18

113:10 150:2

161:21 194:1,3

205:20 246:19

252:10 270:2

done 25:12

29:15,21 44:6

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318:18

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320:1,6 322:19

323:20 324:16

326:14 327:11

329:1 330:3,4,15

331:5,11,19,21

332:21

333:1,4,5,13,16,

17 334:5,10,11

335:2,6

I've 30:22 36:1

101:22 111:17

155:10 172:12

185:9 188:16

201:19,20

211:14 217:15

235:10 256:5

269:3 291:6

301:18 308:2

J

Jakobs 2:19

33:18,22 34:2

62:7,16 63:3,16

67:19

72:1,9,14,19

73:2 76:5,12

77:5,10,15,20

78:22

79:3,12,16,19

81:9 85:21

86:6,18,22 88:19

89:17

90:3,7,11,16,19

91:2,5,17,20

92:4,8,15,19

104:4,9 228:5,10

250:10,16

255:2,14 288:20

295:18

305:1,6,12

332:20

333:1,4,21

January 38:4

205:20

Jeff 2:9,21 35:9

42:21 57:10

80:20 106:13

110:1 111:4

127:8 155:10

160:11 165:4

195:19 210:12
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Jill 2:17 29:10

30:20 169:18

222:1 245:12

262:20 271:18

274:14 281:16

328:19

Jill's 30:11

job 81:14 87:22

Joe 128:11,12,14

John 2:11,18

167:14 217:17

Johnson 2:20

163:15,16,20

164:6

165:6,11,16

229:4,15,20

319:2 322:16

323:12,18

judgment 90:9

139:6

judgments 137:16

jump 157:19

161:12

jumped 157:5

June 1:11 7:13

justification

159:22 160:8

208:5 252:17

justified 154:3

justify 252:22

juxtaposition 69:4

K

kabuki 88:17

Karen 3:4 19:7

22:16 55:2 75:20

117:6 120:16

123:9 256:10

322:19

Karim 2:6 69:3

108:16 221:16

225:5 305:14

key 123:16 200:11

kick 116:6,13

119:6,15

kicking 93:15

kicks 121:3,5

kill 283:8 323:21

killer 82:21 283:15

killing 323:20

kilowatt 129:2,4

215:15

kilowatts 129:5

213:4

kinds 89:10 190:2

192:17 274:19

Kleiss 2:21 106:13

110:1

111:3,4,10,16,19

,22 155:10,19

156:16

157:8,12,22

160:11,16

161:1,8,15

206:19

knew 211:12 224:6

knock 335:7

knocked 35:18

157:21

knocking 35:20

know.The 335:8

knowledge 120:7

262:6 329:12

known 67:12

Kojak 2:22

39:2,16,21 40:3

41:5,11 59:9

L

lab 26:19 27:4

39:11 43:17,18

51:19 59:13,16

63:8 148:17,18

149:1,9,16

151:3,7,9,18,19,

20 152:1,11

153:10,12

159:17 207:8

Laboratories 2:22

labs 39:6 148:21

150:9 281:20,22

lack 26:15 136:15

259:21

lag 63:7

laid 85:4

language 46:21

70:19 71:5

101:12

141:3,5,11

152:18 164:13

169:8 173:1

188:7 206:14

207:13,17 225:9

large 123:18,19

138:22 152:10

162:2 179:7

198:18 281:10

297:19 321:20

328:2 330:3

larger 87:16,18

129:9,10 137:10

138:3 151:9

281:6 321:10

last 7:11,12,20

10:7 24:12 29:5

42:13 51:11 52:8

71:18 82:10

83:13 84:9 91:12

96:17 108:3

122:4 123:22

131:16

141:13,17

157:22 158:7

161:21 163:4

164:9,22 165:21

166:13 171:5

189:15 220:17

233:6 235:16

246:14 254:3

262:19,20

264:22

296:6,9,10

305:21 314:6,12

321:1 334:22

335:18

late 52:13

latent 295:4,5

later 24:12 31:6

46:8 51:4 91:21

93:1 108:13

109:1,21 114:15

127:18 199:4

264:13,14

latter 19:20

laundry 234:21

Laura 2:10 42:22

47:21 52:8 91:5

96:3 115:19

130:16 160:5,7

182:19 195:6

254:1

Laura's 89:19

law 162:20 207:21

236:5

lawyer 236:5

lawyers 261:8

layer 313:15
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lead 44:15 330:14

leaders 268:1

leakage 282:14,22

283:6,11

leaks 283:2

learning 70:2

least 12:16 13:15

38:8 61:22 67:7

78:11 82:12 93:4

98:15 99:11,18

145:17 181:18

197:13 216:6

223:2 289:1

301:7 302:1

leave 7:14 104:12

110:10,17

201:12 218:19

224:20 238:18

246:16 259:4

276:20 280:12

324:5

leaves 49:14 64:21

206:5 215:14

LED 194:22

LEED 173:20

left-hand 13:13

106:14 107:1

legal 235:3

legally 108:9

length 184:17

189:2,3,4 210:3

211:1 213:19

lengths 188:21

197:10

Lennox 172:14

263:10

less 82:2 90:11

238:16 254:3,4,7

262:17,22 281:6

312:7 313:15

319:19

lessen 70:19 71:1

154:7,8,15,19

lesser 154:2

let's 12:17 20:2,5

21:3 27:7 28:18

29:19 31:15 32:3

33:6 38:17 40:18

42:9 43:16 50:12

52:5 57:21 60:5

62:22 96:7,18

102:22 109:20

113:1,2 114:14

117:4 142:10

158:12 163:14

171:6 175:3

197:2 227:7

247:8 249:14

273:15 311:6

324:1,9

letter 27:10,16

157:15

level 65:4 82:12

90:18 92:16

142:15 156:7

233:4,9 252:8

liability 118:15

176:14

liar 91:9

liberal 5:22

license 175:4

178:16

life 252:8 262:1,8

lifetime 49:2

259:13

260:11,13

261:12

light 52:7

lighten 318:10

lights 192:14

194:22 195:1

likelihood 94:4

125:6,20

likely 19:19 75:22

212:19 269:7

limb 76:16

limit 79:22 106:20

118:15 223:2

258:3

limited 18:4 34:8

50:11 63:12 82:8

158:18,21 159:2

limiting 222:21

223:5 233:22

236:20 301:6

line 19:13 89:8

128:11 130:11

135:11 141:17

150:21

176:13,15

191:19 193:4

200:6 214:5

219:11 241:12

265:14

267:7,8,9,12

268:22 269:8

linear 180:21

181:6 182:3,22

184:19

186:1,2,3,7,9

187:3 190:9,11

192:14 197:3

200:14

208:10,14

209:9,21,22

210:5

lines 24:4 89:1

218:20

linkage 245:14

linked 71:10 313:6

liquid 308:11

325:8 326:5

328:1

LISA 338:2,13

list 5:17 12:22

37:19 48:22

85:7,19

105:14,18,21

106:1,2 107:4

142:11 172:14

177:1 218:11

219:1 234:21

242:3 256:6

257:14

258:6,20,22

261:4

listed 104:19

123:16 247:22

listing 105:12

107:3 123:20

252:18 253:4

listings 123:19

213:1

literally 271:22

literature 231:22

little 6:17 13:15

19:3 35:19 44:4

52:4 53:2 69:13

87:4 106:7 119:3

134:2 140:16

141:4 174:5

207:16 211:15

213:10 220:12

251:4 262:2,6,13

265:10 266:6

281:6 309:8

329:11

living 91:10

LLC 2:22
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load 269:1,17

278:21 289:21

290:22 291:3

305:13 310:1

326:13

loaded 235:10

loads 265:22

326:16

located 308:8

locations 112:11

Lochinvar 2:21

lock 177:18

locking 274:16

Loenstein's

327:22

logical 48:19

long 28:4 37:8

40:6 42:13

57:1,4,5,6

58:6,16 64:14

78:22 110:5

118:11 179:17

182:16 184:21

196:15 197:18

202:9 209:15

223:1 237:13

239:21 284:16

longer 45:15 52:9

157:15 184:6

192:13,20 193:5

194:14 208:14

209:1

look-back 41:22

loose 327:7

lose 91:6

loss 215:20 261:13

266:16 281:3

losses 269:18

lost 12:16 132:13

155:13,21

lot 14:20 17:16

22:18 23:17

27:20 35:13

36:20 39:22 49:5

59:21 60:22

63:17 64:5,11

66:2 70:13 72:12

73:6 87:19,20

89:22 91:2

94:7,8 98:16

110:15

113:14,17,20

115:1 118:22

123:12 126:11

127:22 128:17

129:4 130:20

134:11 135:6

145:12,16

146:6,10,15,16

147:12 149:3

150:3 155:5

156:14 183:12

198:17 202:1,8

203:17 208:4

211:16 213:5,11

217:15 232:14

257:11 258:18

260:22 280:22

292:2 311:4

313:11 317:14

320:10,14,19

326:21 327:5

333:17

lots 21:22 53:13

119:18 208:1

303:12

loud 4:21 16:22

louder 102:2,5

louvered 321:11

low 118:8 142:16

145:19 216:1

249:6,8,11,14

251:11

252:11,15

253:10,13,16,17,

18 254:18

255:11 266:18

280:19 281:4

297:21

301:10,19 302:6

311:16

312:2,4,6,8

318:7 322:5

326:16

335:9,10,13,15,1

7

lower 65:14

121:22 209:3

229:9 251:4

259:21 318:8

lowered 155:4

lowest 228:8,9

lunch 4:8

139:15,17

140:11,14,16,20

M

machine 4:4

magnitude 87:13

mailing 5:17

main 136:1

mainly 171:3

289:7

maintain 175:6

237:13 269:22

maintaining 177:9

253:5

major 51:11

majority 84:19

maldistribution

147:1

MALE 12:11,16

17:8 25:14,17

70:10 75:20

101:14,20

103:13

104:2,7,17 107:6

138:8 140:18

166:9 168:22

203:10 221:13

281:11

283:11,13

286:9,11,13

294:16,19

296:10,18

312:7,13 332:22

man 90:7

manage 136:21

manages 118:18

managing 118:15

manufacture

39:22 138:15

202:1 205:18

manufactured

129:11 172:6

173:1 176:17

manufacturer

11:8 13:8,22

14:19 15:2

16:11,18

17:14,17 27:19

28:21 35:15

38:17 39:8 42:11

44:15 48:14

55:17 56:6,16

62:1,17,20 79:22

86:13 94:6 97:7

98:5 105:2

110:11 112:22

115:10

117:19,21

118:10,14,18

120:12 126:13
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135:10

137:11,17

139:3,9 142:9

144:4 145:13

150:18,20 159:8

162:3

172:6,10,20

173:1,18,19

174:6,11,13,19,2

2

175:1,8,10,12,14

,20

176:4,7,9,12,16,

21,22

177:6,13,14,19,2

0 178:17,18

205:10 216:12

230:19 233:14

250:19,20

258:17 287:9

manufacturers

13:6,11,21 14:15

21:22 28:13

33:20 46:19

65:12 66:4 68:7

87:16,17 104:13

115:3 128:1

133:13 137:20

143:17 145:11

176:11 208:11

209:2 221:12

222:12 234:4

253:10,17

316:14 320:18

324:2

manufacturer's

26:20 79:20 86:9

88:11 120:3

135:6,14,16

149:8 156:21

176:13,15

manufactures

68:22

manufacturing

2:16,19 3:4

82:20 89:15

113:5 135:17

177:16 179:16

198:19 207:20

213:18 214:10

250:10 263:22

324:4 328:18

329:18

map 42:4 77:7

126:12 222:3

maps 220:18

222:17 223:22

Marantan 3:2

186:5,11

187:13,19,22

188:2,5 191:10

237:21 238:4,18

245:7 247:11,17

248:10,20

249:4,13,18,21

250:4,7 251:14

262:16

263:11,17

264:13,21

265:4,7,11

272:14 273:8,19

274:1 275:4,21

276:6 277:4,9,14

280:17 284:7,17

290:4,8 291:22

292:6 296:19

297:16 301:17

302:16 303:4,10

305:14,21 308:4

309:16 310:8,13

311:4,12,14,18

312:1,5,11,15

313:7,12

314:5,12,17

315:20 318:13

321:1,7,15,17

322:1,4,8,10,18,

22 323:5,16

324:5,9,15,20

325:3,13,21

330:17 334:21

335:7,11,17

margin 86:15

Mark 2:14 107:2

225:4 228:16

233:11 252:9

255:22 258:16

325:17 327:1

marked 164:17

market 107:13

150:21 157:21

252:22 313:11

322:21

Mark's 332:20

Marlin's 281:9

Marshall 218:13

278:8 283:21

307:9

Mart 333:22

Mary 2:12

340:2,11

mass 229:8 240:11

Massoud 3:6

191:16 195:9

mass-produced

110:15

match 26:2 67:6

238:17 300:22

material 230:13

313:17

materially 168:12

materials 237:16

math 53:14

matter 27:3 34:6

56:12 62:13

181:10,12,16

198:21 228:1,3

234:6,7 293:8,15

305:6 323:9

matters 4:3

max 150:2

maximum 27:22

may 19:13,14

31:12,13

32:13,18 33:14

45:8 48:13,14

68:17 69:3 74:14

82:19 84:11,14

88:14 106:13

117:21,22 123:7

128:17 144:12

148:14 154:7

158:7 159:15

162:2 190:17

192:21 193:5

194:17 197:11

203:10,12

205:10,14 212:8

214:5 236:19

247:1,5 251:5,8

259:19

274:10,16

296:11 298:15

301:6 319:17

maybe 13:1

32:7,8,10 38:13

45:3 49:22 52:7

55:10 67:8 68:19

71:6 74:4,6 79:4

83:18 85:21

89:20 96:2

108:15 116:16

123:6 127:10

128:22 134:6

135:4,15 141:8

142:16,21 143:9

148:19 164:13

179:2,7 186:12
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198:18

202:12,14

212:21 217:2,12

227:18 228:20

230:12 240:20

241:3 244:22

245:8,20 246:1,3

248:1,8,19 259:3

274:9 275:17

277:6 297:12,17

307:16 317:1,21

318:15,20 319:2

335:7,19

McQuay 2:20

mean 14:16 16:4

17:16 18:10,13

20:9 21:1

25:15,19

27:5,20,21 28:20

29:17 31:7,14

35:4,13,20 37:18

38:3 39:22 41:15

44:20 56:20 58:7

60:3 63:10 68:21

72:1,2 73:9 78:1

81:1 82:15,18

84:16,18 88:16

91:5 93:4,22

97:22 98:14

103:20 105:6

110:18 114:2,21

116:22 123:6

124:2,9,10,17

127:19,22

129:16 132:22

134:16

136:1,14,15

138:1 139:2

141:6,11 142:15

145:15

151:11,18 157:2

158:11

159:14,18 160:7

162:14,16

164:17 166:9

169:15 176:19

177:11 180:7

182:3 186:18

187:9,21 189:7

190:13 192:9

196:5 201:4

203:4 204:9,10

205:1 206:8

209:16 210:21

211:8,20 212:9

213:5 217:6

218:1 220:1

222:2 223:4,19

224:17

226:13,17

229:17 230:18

231:17 232:11

236:17 238:13

239:2 240:15

241:9

242:4,9,12,14,16

,20 243:8,16

246:2 253:16

263:2 266:5,13

267:11 269:6,14

271:18 272:2

273:2 275:16

276:19 279:19

281:1 283:16

284:13,15

285:6,12 286:15

287:4 288:22

293:6 296:4,13

299:13 300:14

302:1 306:7,20

307:3 312:6

316:3 317:15

319:20 323:4

325:10 332:20

meaning 48:10

129:1,3

means 29:2

53:19,21 71:12

80:6 107:2 121:6

133:20 134:9

146:11 190:14

196:14 199:11

202:8 203:17

218:3 241:15

260:21 274:4

276:17,18,22

292:15 298:9

300:7 306:22

308:8 310:18

meant 30:7 54:20

116:2,8,12,18

117:2 121:20

221:19,22 226:1

measure 156:7

180:17

187:14,17 268:1

272:15 286:22

measured 265:14

267:10 335:12

measuring 270:2

290:17

mechanical 278:14

279:5,15

mechanism 131:10

162:16

medium 249:21

250:5 301:13

303:7

311:6,7,16,18,19

312:1,6,9 335:13

Medium's 311:6

meet 36:20 41:7

42:10 52:9,10

54:6 63:6 84:22

138:5

205:18,20,21,22

211:12 212:14

257:1 306:8

315:9,17

meeting 1:4 4:17

7:12,21 12:8

41:17 65:3 82:10

91:15 115:18

122:4 131:6

163:4 164:22

165:14,21 171:5

235:16 262:15

336:3

meetings

5:16,19,20

6:5,6,16 47:8

130:17

meets 88:13

235:18

member 54:10

95:19 108:8

109:17

members 5:16

108:21 272:1

membership

109:19

mention 17:18

188:20 238:1

314:13 315:20

mentioned 51:10

80:21 262:17

mess 45:22 46:10

met 32:9 41:2

metal 316:10

metals 248:4 256:9

meter 268:9

metric 187:2,17

236:16 249:22

289:22 306:3,8

metrics 187:21

Meyers 3:4 19:6,7

22:16,21

23:1,3,7 26:22
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27:6 28:12,15

32:21 33:3,8,12

35:4 38:15 54:20

55:3 58:20

59:4,6 62:15

75:9,12 76:21

77:2 80:6,10

94:11 101:15,22

105:4,10 115:22

117:10,13

120:17

121:2,6,17

122:8,10,17,20

123:1,5

124:2,4,9,13,16

125:4,13,22

126:4,6,9

136:12,19

164:14 217:17

222:20 232:6

241:14,21

242:2,8,11

243:4,14

244:2,7,10

255:19 256:12

279:12

286:15,19

287:21 288:4

290:16,21 291:4

302:20 303:8

314:10 315:16

318:2

319:7,10,13,21

320:10

322:7,9,19

mic 102:3

Michael 2:22 3:7

micro 230:6

232:13 238:14

middle 260:2

Mike 5:6 39:2 41:5

53:7,10,15 260:9

mild 297:21

milder 279:5

mile 317:5

miles 35:22 54:18

million 53:6

128:18,19

millions 51:17

mimic 225:17

mind 17:14 21:18

50:22 51:15 52:3

69:4,11 73:7

150:19 234:20

245:10 246:1

mindset 100:5

mine 87:8,9

121:17 165:7

273:22 317:3

minimal 313:18

minimum 135:10

188:4 198:8

204:10,12

205:21 208:18

278:1 290:15

315:18,21

321:10

minimums 315:9

minor 171:12

172:3

minute 21:9 38:20

114:12

minutes 71:2

miserably 64:7

misimpression

246:17

missed 73:15

missing 89:13,18

96:2 178:8 255:9

294:10

mistakes 151:13

misunderstanding

121:8

Mitsubishi 2:13

15:8 27:18 34:5

54:8 68:13 82:14

93:19 102:18

mix 67:6 191:6

274:6 276:10,13

mixed 297:3

mixing 296:22

297:1,5

mode 309:22

326:14

model 10:6

11:20,21 14:20

17:2,7,11 21:18

23:13,17,22

24:5,7 25:6,19

33:13,16 55:4,8

56:4 62:18

69:10,18 71:8

72:5,7,10 73:22

74:13,16

78:16,21 79:7

81:4,12,18

99:3,4,13,15

100:10,12

102:8,9,19,21

103:1,8,11,22

104:9,11,16,22

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277:4

secondary

207:19,20

second-guessing

130:2

section 164:18

210:22 266:6

325:20

sections 330:6

seeing 18:1 81:20

83:15 165:12

197:7 227:5,7

318:17 328:5

330:7

seeking 331:22

seem 13:12 15:12

35:3 46:18 48:3

173:16 277:18

seemed 67:3

seems 21:1 26:7

27:21 28:4 33:19

36:8,13 45:7

62:3 79:19 86:14

87:2 88:6 128:8

135:5 138:11

153:21 158:8

185:8 189:16

201:2 203:21

210:15 293:20

294:6 303:13

314:4

seen 5:22 16:5,6

176:10 185:9

203:8 269:3

301:18 319:20

320:3

segregate 208:3

select 13:20 14:1

40:19 62:12

104:7 226:8

selected 40:11,17

41:7 42:14 43:19

65:13,15

selecting 13:18

41:9 66:2 85:15

225:22 226:3

selection 14:7

39:15 41:10,15

42:3 58:20 62:13

63:20 81:16

selections 59:1

62:9 85:14

self 50:8

self-consistent

193:16

self-contained

191:22

192:3,6,7,10,19

193:2 194:8,9

sell 174:8 202:3,4

224:5 255:8

selling 177:13

309:22

semi 97:22

semi-vertical

191:7

send 27:10 49:7

91:12 92:2

217:19 291:7

329:10

sending 71:13

166:16,19

sense 15:5 63:17

66:1 71:22

140:11 176:20

181:8 192:15

202:5 204:1

206:8 218:2

220:7,10 221:6

247:19 262:3

306:13 317:14

sensible 295:6

326:12

sensor 245:15

sent 20:1 27:16

164:16,19

165:14

217:18,20

sentence 108:3

158:7 189:16

271:10 277:5

separate 12:7

19:13 93:3 94:17

102:14 138:1

161:2 174:19

176:3 202:17

252:18 272:12

275:18 307:1

312:22 328:3

separately 165:2

176:17 260:18

September 38:6

serious 327:2

seriously 201:12

215:17

service 230:12

238:16 257:5

services 5:10

session 219:17

sessions 203:21

sets 79:5 104:5

218:2

setting 9:5 87:5

307:1 331:12
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settings 301:14

settle 92:12

settled 98:18

seven 112:11,12,14

243:5

Seventy-some

170:17

several 4:8 37:6

67:2 91:10

145:10 147:21

155:10 163:8

252:16 320:5

severe 137:19

severity 143:19

SharePoint 163:21

164:2

sharing 95:7

Shebik 3:10

55:19,22 56:3,8

57:2,4,6

63:19,22 182:19

186:1 192:6

195:9 196:18

202:17 203:3

shedding 310:1

sheet 4:15 168:16

169:22 229:18

321:9

she's 89:20 91:9

96:6 102:1

122:16 320:6

shift 135:18

265:21 268:11

shifts 136:11

ship 287:12

shipment 85:12

138:19

shipped 262:6

316:20 327:2

shipping 134:12

282:17 283:4

297:19

shocked 115:13

shooting 333:18

short 10:2 28:3

59:15 84:11 87:7

259:6 330:12

shorter 192:13

Short-term 161:9

shoulder 229:5

shows 41:12 42:10

sick 89:4

side-by 246:3

sided 86:16

sidetracked 51:16

sideways 51:16

Sigma 86:9

significance 55:12

significant 19:15

85:19 87:14 88:1

148:11 162:2

230:10 281:7

significantly 85:7

87:18 145:22

147:17 254:4

262:22

SIKES 338:2,13

similar 16:5 20:11

36:15 152:3

179:7 192:4

212:20 225:8,9

230:4 240:9,16

298:11 300:3

303:19 311:8,15

318:16 321:18

322:8 335:15

simple 18:17 113:2

213:20,22 271:6

304:20

Simpler 322:1

simply 123:17

229:20 238:4

261:11

simulated 69:16

simulating 25:8

simulation 88:7

simulation-based

67:5 69:5

simulations 69:20

single 13:12 16:11

21:19,21

31:19,20 32:2

33:15 34:8

128:19 146:10

152:4 199:14

210:22

285:14,22

sit 236:9

site 235:21 236:2

sitting 48:2 157:6

situation 144:13

174:10 205:13

206:19

six 27:11 32:22

39:7 75:2 85:8

86:9 114:8,9

144:3 146:8

147:10,14

149:19 150:10

151:2 153:12

156:1 158:2

160:12 179:17

186:18 193:17

197:12 218:20

334:12

six-foot 197:16

six-month 58:8

63:7

size 13:16 16:2

112:6

113:14,17,20

116:1,9,19,22

117:11,14

118:16 137:8,9

138:3 146:4

162:1,6 181:5

239:10

sizes 180:5 181:5

282:11

SJI 2:15

skew 137:16

slash 320:5

slice 215:4

slide 12:7,8

170:19,22 171:1

218:14 237:22

247:14 249:5,14

251:12,15

265:2,4,13

272:14 274:3

292:14 305:21

311:15 321:2

slides 170:17

171:2 218:9

234:21 247:18

248:16 264:14

slight 251:12,13

slightly 52:8 262:4

slim 50:20 94:7

slipping 51:13

sliver 200:9

slope 190:9,12,18

191:12

slow 67:11 271:21
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slowly 101:20

small 19:11 52:1

72:22 88:10

117:22 126:3

137:8,9 162:3

198:19 263:7

266:19 281:18

316:16 317:15

330:3

smaller 85:18

215:5,8 281:5,7

282:10

smallest 85:9

215:16,19

smart 324:16

smoothly 6:3 8:19

snakes 210:17

software 69:18

70:8

sold 174:12 177:18

255:13 262:20

solder 134:18

135:2

soldered

135:12,13,15

solid 321:13 325:8

solution 106:14

solve 47:1 60:4

194:18

somebody 7:15

52:9 70:18

125:2,10 127:10

128:16

141:13,14,20

143:19

152:14,16 164:7

174:7 210:22

214:12 220:20

224:3,22 226:14

228:21 262:17

266:20 314:14

315:11 330:12

somebody's

128:5,8 247:9

294:3

somehow 26:12

95:21

someone 79:8

128:18 129:5

146:14 152:11

186:19 214:1

245:4 272:20

291:11 318:13

someplace 172:18

244:6

sometime 7:14

31:6 307:6

somewhat 17:18

172:3 185:3

somewhere 153:6

240:1 296:12

307:21 308:1

322:15 327:17

son's 89:16

sophisticated

332:19

sorry 56:3 95:17

114:14 130:19

155:18 169:2

178:10 190:14

217:20 226:4

233:5 253:14

254:12 260:8

264:22 305:20

327:21

sort 5:5 10:14

36:11 138:21

149:6 258:8

sorts 54:13 262:12

sound 249:1

sounds 18:20

19:20 111:3

147:10 214:19

239:20 298:17

306:4

source 10:8,9

87:19 166:8

185:16 216:13

217:2 308:10

311:2,21

312:18,20

320:22

Southern 3:6

space 326:19

334:10,11

span 11:15 147:21

spanning 147:12

speak 4:19,21 6:1

38:22 66:16

84:13 168:22

256:15

SPEAKER

12:11,16 17:8

25:14,17 70:10

75:20 101:14,20

103:13

104:2,7,17 107:6

115:6 138:8

140:1,3,18 166:9

168:22 203:10

221:13 281:11

283:11,13

286:9,11,13

294:16,19

296:10,18

305:18,20

312:7,13 332:22

SPEAKERS 63:1

speaking 4:22 66:1

138:14

speaks 274:13

spec 176:15

229:18

special 54:5 68:21

262:8 264:9

269:15

303:14,16

specialized 19:13

specialty 263:22

specific 12:22

19:12 34:2 62:17

67:1,14 68:22

77:6 79:16 81:17

110:9 144:16,21

146:6 152:6

153:14 169:19

230:6 231:21

232:11 254:5

292:21 321:14

330:1,8

specifically 13:2

82:15 112:9

141:11 225:13

258:14 263:7

specifications 35:5

specificity 225:21

specified 229:7

277:12

specifies 232:15

specify 39:18

158:1 232:16

267:14

spectrum 138:12

speculating 17:18

spend 49:2 50:14

89:14 198:13

320:18

spent 150:8 324:14

splits 146:10

sporadic 59:19
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spot 111:12

spot-checking

111:6,7

spray 314:14

spreadsheet

217:16

SPVUs 171:17

square 180:22

211:5

squared 265:18

stab 221:17

stage 156:11

stand 4:22 162:22

305:2

standard 138:5

154:13 169:21

180:19,21 182:6

186:13 187:6

188:4,18 194:7

195:12 198:9

208:18 212:21

215:21 239:13

248:5 257:1

259:21 282:16

283:17 287:16

288:17,19

297:10 300:18

303:17 307:1,10

316:13

331:6,7,8,12,14

standards 1:3 9:5

71:19 180:4

190:2,15 191:10

212:20 290:15

297:15 300:15

318:7 331:4

336:2

stands 79:9

Stanonik 3:11

8:17 11:7

15:15,18 16:7

19:21 20:20,22

21:8,18 22:4

26:7 28:17

29:9,13,16,19

30:2,7 37:17

54:22 76:9,15

77:1,4,9,14,17,2

1 78:7,10,18

80:14,19 97:22

98:4,8,11,14

99:22

100:11,16,19,22

101:7,16 102:4,7

103:10,18

104:18

105:11,16,21

106:5,9,12

107:13 112:20

113:9,18

114:1,10,14,20

115:5,8,17 120:9

130:6,9,15 131:5

136:7,14,20

156:5

172:2,12,16

173:3,15,22

174:9 176:19

178:2 183:14

210:8 223:12,17

224:3,8,11

278:16,19

279:21 294:21

stars 106:3

start 8:16 12:17

21:5,21 40:17,20

41:6,13,16

43:1,5 45:7

56:22 76:19

111:14 112:3

157:9 179:3

247:20 248:1

249:13 281:5

335:21

started 28:9

138:16 140:22

246:11

starting 22:8,11

41:12 171:11

257:8 301:7

304:15

starts 40:10

118:21

stated 100:2

statement 46:17

98:20 209:15

229:1

States 120:13

static 239:4,7,9

240:4

281:2,4,9,18

300:2

Statistically

109:16

statistics 128:20

status 205:22

statute 162:5

253:15,18

259:10,11 260:9

331:8

statutes 253:12,19

statutory 272:11

331:6

stay 52:14

stays 318:1

steep 70:10

STEM 153:18

236:14

278:13,18,22

279:2,8,10

280:22 282:13

283:2,16 284:4

303:13,16 321:4

step 30:9,16 76:15

144:9

Stephens 3:13

85:3 86:4 87:11

112:5,10

113:7,10 115:3

137:7 144:12,19

145:1,7 156:19

161:18 162:18

steps 130:20

143:12 155:15

stick 109:20

sticks 69:10

stimulated 67:4

stock 110:16 112:7

177:18

stocked 50:7

stocking 288:13

stomach 194:18

stop 43:12 56:22

218:18

stopped 57:12

219:2

storage 309:18,19

311:10

store 3:6

333:8,11,21

335:1

stores 327:5,6

straight 214:5

stream 295:9,10

327:20

streaMS 293:8

street 4:10

strength 88:5

Stress 254:1

strictly 23:4
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stringent 108:17

136:12

structure 321:18

332:15

structures 69:7

stuck 201:2

stuff 5:7 17:21

23:17 32:8 48:22

53:12,14 84:19

97:1 115:16

123:11 130:22

137:2 152:12

153:16 176:13

198:2 215:10

259:5 269:2,4

293:13 316:4

320:11,16 328:1

329:16 330:6

sub 294:8

subcommittee

48:4 170:14

subdivide 214:16

233:12

subject 85:10

submission 240:1

submit 5:19 7:22

196:2

subsequent 110:7

177:9 247:4

substance 168:15

169:22

substantial 317:10

substantiate

118:20 143:5

substantiated

118:10

substantiation

97:4

substitute

224:7,10

substituting

194:18 257:21

substitution

250:20

suction 229:10

sudden 322:21

suffering 215:22

suffice 164:5

suggest 8:10 70:16

98:15 144:2

186:21 307:3

suggested 52:8

121:8 122:1,14

148:13 249:1

suggesting 20:17

47:12

suggestion 48:12

271:2 272:18

suggestions

6:19,21 52:16

141:2 142:18

suggests 38:22

suitable 284:22

Suite 1:8

summer 292:13

Supermarket

313:9

supplemental

239:16

supplier 64:6

80:15 114:3,13

115:2 310:21

suppliers 35:5,6

80:7 87:15,18,19

133:7

supplies 305:11,13

supply 112:12

113:7,8,12 115:4

135:7 137:1

229:17 265:18

279:4 291:16

308:9 325:7

support 53:12

97:5 170:2

supported 11:9

177:7

supposed 8:11

134:11 137:1,2

163:4 207:1

sure 4:18,22 7:21

11:1 17:6 24:20

26:17 42:22 44:3

46:10,12 65:7

82:10 88:1,9

100:9 115:8

124:4,10 125:9

129:15 135:11

149:13 151:13

153:3 155:12

156:17 164:6

167:9,21 172:20

178:15 183:6

193:16 197:20

206:4,7 207:11

216:3 219:19

226:9 231:1

237:9 242:11

243:22 258:12

270:7 273:10

276:6 277:10

282:3 317:15

331:15 335:18

surface 215:19

313:21,22

323:2,15

surfaces 321:12

surprised 51:5

suspect 65:11 66:6

113:16 134:21

220:17

swimming 255:17

256:2

switch 9:2 144:17

swoop 173:7

sympathetic 64:19

system 50:14

103:3,6,8 134:5

228:12 235:18

238:22 241:20

242:4 256:17,22

258:4 279:3

280:12,13

286:17,20

288:21 292:15

296:17,18

298:10,14 299:1

304:15 305:3,7

307:10

326:13,15

systems 236:17

264:10 279:4

302:12 305:11

309:6

T

table 55:1 110:2

112:8 140:6

161:14 166:8

167:2,6 173:12

202:22 231:2

taking 26:19

119:21 150:6

186:21 223:21

237:18 238:13

275:7 278:10

279:20 294:18

295:1,7

talk 7:14 8:4

12:7,13 13:15

57:21 70:17,18
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95:14 99:17

113:1 115:15

131:10 138:13

139:13 141:4

146:17

165:2,19,22

167:7 178:4,22

210:21 227:7

266:6 282:14

297:17

talked 9:20 72:3,9

115:1 122:4

133:14 165:21

171:6 246:14

307:4 314:6

330:4

talking 8:6 15:14

28:1 33:5 45:4

52:6 57:11 62:9

69:1,16 79:19

96:11,21 99:15

102:2 104:2,4

106:16 111:5

116:8 117:18

122:16 130:16

131:14 141:17

147:12,22

151:10,11 155:6

164:14 171:11

172:19 179:15

182:20 184:8

186:9 203:6,19

210:18 211:2,16

212:18 213:8

216:11,15 229:5

231:2,7 237:10

239:1,20 240:2,8

244:9 248:11

249:18 254:17

256:21

258:10,13

275:13 290:22

314:12

316:19,21

317:14,15,20

326:7 329:22

330:2 332:18

talks 190:17

191:19

tall 182:16

tap 188:10

target 108:15

targeted 62:14

task 81:3

tasks 81:4

TDA 181:1

182:3,11

187:20,22 193:2

194:12 208:11

tea 4:5

technical 5:7

technologies 2:18

274:10

technology 245:19

274:15,17

293:11 301:6,12

302:8

teeing 108:22

teeth 127:20

temperature

134:20 205:19

229:10,11

282:15 294:19

309:2 333:20

temperatures

285:5

ten 19:14 56:18

71:2

74:11,13,19,20,2

2 75:2 116:15

117:21 125:6,7

179:18 241:21

242:1,17

243:6,11

249:21,22

ten-minute 70:16

246:8

ten-ton 102:22

term 104:1 168:16

169:22 192:17

243:2,4,13,15

310:19 330:12

terminate 278:6

terms 7:5 18:12

66:5 67:1 88:10

90:20 117:4,8

181:21 182:1

236:4 259:11

311:5 316:19

terrible 215:22

test 11:9 13:4,10

14:8,18 15:9

16:7,8 17:2,13

24:14,21

26:3,19,20

27:4,8,9,12

29:21 30:13

31:1,6,20

32:5,11,17 36:22

37:20,21 38:4,6

39:6,13 40:3,19

41:14 42:9

43:3,6 44:7,11

45:1,22 46:6,17

47:8,11,16,19,20

50:15 51:19 52:2

54:17 58:22

59:10,17,21

60:16 61:18

63:8,14 64:9,13

68:7,10,16 74:22

75:1,6 79:8

81:11 83:6,21,22

84:19,20,21

89:11,21 95:10

96:12,19,20

97:2,3 104:10

109:13,14

110:6,16,20

111:15 112:3

114:4,5 116:12

118:9 119:18,21

120:21 122:22

125:12,17

127:13 129:19

132:15,19

134:19 135:8

137:10,12

139:7,9 143:18

145:6,17

146:1,14 150:22

151:2 152:11,13

153:6 158:3,19

180:3 195:13

197:14,16

198:1,2,11,12,17

,21 199:13,14,17

202:4,11,15,19

204:4 205:11,17

206:1,3,7,22

207:1 208:7

223:7 225:1

235:9 239:12,13

240:3,4 249:6

250:18 252:6

254:19 256:14

261:22 262:1

263:13

264:17,18

267:10,15

268:1,15

270:1,3,6,12,18,

21

271:1,3,6,7,12,1

3,21

272:1,7,10,15,16

273:12

281:4,17,19,21,2

2 282:16 283:18

284:17
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285:7,15,22

286:7 287:1

288:18

289:9,17,19,20

290:4,16 291:1

299:16,20

300:1,4

303:10,17,19

304:8,9 305:9

306:8,12 307:5,6

308:22 309:1

312:15,16,19

313:3 314:20

315:1,3 318:6,8

319:16 321:2

324:9,17 325:1,4

330:14

331:2,3,18,19,20

332:6,7,9,16

334:19 335:12

tested 13:8,19

17:10

20:4,19,20,22

21:2,20 26:1

28:3 31:16 32:18

35:22 36:2 38:5

42:2 47:2 50:7

54:11,19,22

55:1,6,16,20

62:5 63:9 76:11

82:19 84:10,17

98:12

103:2,3,9,17

106:22 109:12

116:2,9 117:9

121:9 125:16

132:8 148:16

149:1 151:6,8

158:14 183:16

206:6 207:5

223:1 291:12

tester 286:4,10

testing 8:22 14:16

15:19 22:19

26:3,4 27:7,11

28:22 30:6

32:4,7,10 39:4

42:12,17 43:17

44:6 51:19 53:12

54:14 59:13

61:1,3

81:13,14,19

82:22 94:5,7,15

95:4,5,12,20

96:12,14,15

97:7,21 98:6

104:8 106:17

109:5,11 110:12

118:17,19,21,22

119:3,13,16

121:14,15 122:6

123:20 125:7

128:5 129:14

131:9 138:4

139:1 145:15

150:12 151:17

157:18,19

160:21

161:1,4,12,14

174:18,20

175:15 176:21

177:5,7 180:3

183:6 184:5,7

200:5,9,15,17,18

204:1 205:7

206:11 207:7

212:5 218:8

224:22 253:4

tests 15:14

18:4,6,8,18

19:19 21:17 22:9

32:15 34:11

35:11,16 50:18

60:10,11 79:10

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249:3,9,17

250:17 251:19

252:5 255:10,15

257:7,9,13,19

258:5,15

260:8,15

263:6,9,16

264:17 266:2

270:11 271:16

275:5,15,17,20

276:18,21

279:9,14 280:5

282:6,10

285:6,10,16,18

286:3 287:3,7,20

288:3,6

291:13,20

293:6,17

294:4,13,17

296:22 297:4

299:9,12,18

300:3,11 302:3

306:7,12

307:3,21

308:18,21 309:7

314:3,8,16,18

315:2,8,11,14

318:17,20

319:3,5,9,12,14,

20 320:3,20

322:3,14 323:3

324:1,18,22

325:16

whoever 204:9

whole 49:20 52:6

59:21 60:21 64:5

71:21

73:12,18,21

77:12 94:7,8

115:17 118:22

121:1 146:10,16

162:16 166:13

183:12,14

184:4,5 200:6

202:17 206:21

207:5 211:9

228:12 268:6,7,8

288:21

306:14,21

309:17 313:10

whom 337:3

Whoops 114:12

Who's 71:4

whose 88:7 313:21

321:9

wide 68:6 86:12

215:14

wife 89:14

Wild 106:11

willing 66:18

151:18 201:12

214:2,11

Wilson 1:7

window 58:8 59:7

62:1,3

windows 56:22

winter 292:10

wireless 4:13

withdraw 149:18

witness 42:12
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-10-2013

Page 62

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

43:3,6 61:13

witnessed 58:1

wonder 300:21

wonderful 50:3

wondering 13:3

62:7 155:4

178:12 221:18

270:16 278:19

worded 124:20

wording 54:3 72:4

139:21 153:14

171:10 207:21

216:8,17 225:8

243:1 279:18

294:5

wordsmith 152:6

158:10

work 18:17 25:22

35:12 45:13

52:11,13 53:13

65:2 95:9,14

110:11,19,22

123:12 128:20

132:9 133:10,22

134:5,8,10

152:13 175:17

188:8 199:12

206:4 247:16

248:15 276:14

288:21 295:20

299:2

workable 83:7

296:20

worked 17:12

62:20 113:3

working 6:16 7:10

8:19 33:14 58:8

100:2,5 103:20

111:13 123:22

144:7 173:16

277:11

307:13,14

workload 44:22

works 57:16 81:20

96:1 186:4 206:4

213:18 289:1

world 143:21

worms 210:16

211:14

worn 316:3

worried 125:18

193:22 194:1

worse 88:9

worst 133:6

197:15

worst-case 85:2

worth 22:5 111:5

wrap 140:12

213:10

write 204:8 218:16

313:3

writes 204:9

writing 66:8,15

73:8 81:18

159:22 289:7

written 6:21 43:9

154:17 180:19

194:7 208:9,18

236:5 275:16

wrong 36:6,7

37:14 77:12

87:10 113:4

126:12 135:2

146:19 158:8

221:6 243:20

287:22

wrongly 67:20

wrote 101:18

221:19 266:5

281:1 325:17

X

Xerox 326:17

Xs 91:20

X's 85:16 178:6,12

XX 277:5 289:1

Y

y'all 87:3

yell 246:12

Yep 218:15 248:18

320:20 333:9

yet 52:22 98:18

104:18 119:12

235:14 307:16

Y-intercept

191:12

you'll 85:6 102:14

107:8 198:13

204:19 288:17

YOUNG 340:2,11

yours 21:20 125:8

273:22 292:9

321:17

yourself 4:4

151:14 223:3

yourselves 165:1

you've 9:1 50:18

84:12 95:6

105:11 109:16

113:16 114:11

131:8 133:4

137:14 139:15

143:22 155:13

156:12 215:19

225:11 254:6

256:8 292:9

299:19 311:20

325:13

Y's 85:16 87:7

Z

zero 65:14 83:9

84:14 254:11

274:7 277:12,21

301:10

zones 284:16

303:2

zoom 140:1