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## 0 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION OFFICE OF HEARINGS WASHINGTON, D.C. 1



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IN THE MATTER OF AVIATION TECHNICAL SERVICES, INC. 

### NOV -6 2012 

## HEARING DOCK T Respondent FAA Case No. 2010NM010105 FDMS No. FAA-2011-0682
Tuesday October 16, 2012 Courtroom 18-206 B U.S. District Court Western District of Washington 700 Stewart Street Seattle, WA 98101 The above-entitled matter came on for hearing, pursuant to notice, at 9:10 a.m.
BEFORE: THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN, United States Administrative Law Judge

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.comAPPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Respondent: DANE B. JAQUES, ESQ. DOMBROFF GILMORE JAQUES & FRENCH 1676 International Drive, Penthouse McLean, VA 22102 (703) 966-6111 On Behalf of the Agency, Department of Transportation: DAVID F. SHAYNE, ATTORNEY Federal Aviation Administration Office of Regional Counsel Northwest Mountain Region 1601 Lind Avenue, S.W. Renton, WA 98057 (425) 227-2165 KAREN DAVIS HUBER, ESQ. Federal Aviation Administration Office of Regional Counsel Northwest Mountain Region 1601 Lind Avenue, S.W. Renton, WA 98057 (425) 227-1007

NEAL R. GROSS 2

(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com3 TABLE OF CONTENTS Opening Statement of Agency Opening Statement of Respondent
WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

(None)

Court Exhibit Nos. E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S

Document CT-A Stipulation of Facts

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 MARK RECD 6 6

www.nealrgross.com4

1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (9:10a.m.) 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Aviation Technical 4 Services, Docket No. FAA-2011-0682. 5 A couple of preliminary matters. 6 I normally take a break about 10:30. I'm 7 going to take a break at 10:00 today. I'm 8 going to meet with --meeting a past chair of 9 one of the ABA sections. He was chair when I 10 was chair of the Judicial Division and that 11 should go until about 1:30. We'll take 12 another break sometime between 2:30 and 3:00. 13 I want to make sure we vacate the courtroom on 14 or about 4:30. We've got it scheduled for 15 tomorrow if we need it. 16 As you know, some of this is 17 redundant if you've appeared before me, but 18 everything that we do goes on the Internet. 19 The transcript, the exhibits, and everything 20 else. Since this appears to be a maintenance 21 case, I want both counsel to be aware of the 22 fact that this does go on the Internet. If at

NEAL R. GROSS
(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com5 1 any point you feel the need to seal the 2 records, in whole or in part, I'm amenable to 3 that. I would rather err on the part of 4 sealing the record than having information 5 that doesn't belong on the Internet on the 6 Internet. And I mean on the Internet, which 7 means everybody in the world can access both 8 the transcript and all the exhibits. 9 Secondly, when you -- or thirdly, 10 when you testify when you're witnesses 11 testify, have them use business addresses and 12 business phone numbers. Don't use any home 13 phone numbers, cell phone numbers, home 14 addresses, anything like that, and if there 15 are any dates of birth, social security 16 numbers, anything like that, let's make sure 17 we redact that. But Ms. Mathews always 18 reviews to doublecheck. Every once in a while 19 I' 11 catch something. As Ms. Shayne knows, in 20 today' s age, we need to be cautious about what 21 we put on the Internet. 22 You've already presented the Court

NEAL R. GROSS
(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com6 1 the exhibits. As you may or may not know, I'm 2 not wedded to any particular methodology of 3 marking them as long as the two of you don't 4 use the identical exhibit numbers. 5 What I thought I would do am I 6 correct, Mr. Shayne, that both of you have 7 agreed on the stipulation of facts, a joint 8 stip? 9 MR. SHAYNE: That is correct, Your 10 Honor. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So what I 12 think I'll do is I'll make that Court Exhibit 13 1 just so we 14

-- and Court Exhibit 1, which is the joint 15 stipulation of facts, which is dated October 16 12th, is received in evidence as Court Exhibit 17 --let's call it A. It'll be Court CT-A so we 18 don't get confused. 19 (Whereupon, the above-referred 20 document was marked as CT-A for 21 identification and was admitted 22 into evidence.)

NEAL R. GROSS
(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com7 1 Any other preliminary matters that 2 you can think of? 3 MR. SHAYNE: Just a very brief and 4 mlnor one, Your Honor, regarding the 5 stipulations. It was due to an oversight on 6 my part, and with Mr. Jaques forebearance, I 7 just wanted to point out that if you look at 8 stipulation 18, there's kind of a qualified

-- 9 I wouldn't call it a disclaimer so much as a 10 qualification

-- in parentheses. It says, 11 "The FAA submits," et cetera. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 13 MR. SHAYNE: That qualification 14 should also apply to stipulation number 12. 15 That's the only preliminary matter. 16 The other thing is the parties 17 agaln have agreed Mr. Jaques was kind 18 enough to walve the usual demand that 19 witnesses be sequestered given that there are 20 no issues in this case having to do with 21 credibility 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay.

NEAL R. GROSS
{202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com8

1 MR. SHAYNE:

-- or fact finding. 2 All the facts are before the Court. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: So the last four 4 lines in paragraph 18 of the stipulation, 5 which is in parenthesis, that also applies to 6 stipulation number 12? 7 MR. SHAYNE: That's correct, Your 8 Honor. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: And counsel have 10 talked and there's no need for the 11 sequestration of witnesses; is that correct? 12 MR. JAQUES: That's correct. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Or as we call it 14 in Maryland, the rule on witnesses. 15 Anything else? 16 MR. SHAYNE: Nothing from the 17 government, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 19 MR. JAQUES: I just should mention 20 that some of the exhibits, at least on our 21 side and I think on the side of the FAA are 22 designated Boeing proprietary. So at the

NEAL R. GROSS
(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com9 1 appropriate time, I do beleive we should 2 request that 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me ask you 4 this: Philosophically, I would rather seal 5 than err, and if we're going to be presenting 6 testimony that mixes proprietary with other 7 testimony, then I'm inclined to seal the 8 entire record, to be perfectly honest. Now, 9 when I seal the record, what that means is 10 counsel for the FAA, their experts can review 11 it. Obviously the Respondent and their 12 parties can review it. The only people in my 13 office who can see it are myself, Ms. Mathews, 14 Mr. Liebowitz. If we do that, that means it 15 won't go on the Internet. We won't have to 16 worry about sorting through three inches of 17 stuff to make sure we didn't accidentally put 18 something in there. It doesn't affect 19 anything else. 20 It looks like you're leaning in 21 favor 22 of

--
NEAL R. GROSS
(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com10

1 MS. HUBER: Yes. I'd be in 2 agreement because of the Boeing 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: The other thing is 4 if we make a typo or we mess something up, 5 nobody gets to see it. 6 MR. JAQUES: That's acceptable to 7 the Respondent as well. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN : Then what we're 9 going to do, the Court having heard from both 10 parties and reviewing the scope of this, the 11 record in this hearing will be sealed. I' 11 12 issue an order to that effect, and the order 13 will, in essence, say that it will be sealed, 14 will be marked ''Confidential, Not for Public 15 Disclosure." The order goes on to say that 16 the only parties who can have access to the 17 file are FAA counsel and parties to the case - 18 Respondent, Respondent's counsel, and 19 parties to the case, myself, Ms. Mathews, Mr. 20 Liebowitz, and it can only be unsealed by 21 further order of me or some appellate body. 22 Obviously if you appeal, it goes to the Office

NEAL R. GROSS
(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com11

1 of General Counsel. They obviously have a 2 right to review it. 3 The biggest thing is it will not 4 be on the Internet. It will not be ln 5 docketing. What will be in docketing is an 6 order sealing the case. 7 So do you, mechanically, to the 8 Court Reporter, do you want to go off the 9 record and come back on the record in a closed 10 session or do you just want to mark the whole 11 thing sealed? It's your call. 12 COURT REPORTER: It's really up to 13 you. Why don't we go off and come back on. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. We're 15 going to go off the record. 16 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 17 was adjourned at 9:16a.m., to be resumed the 18 same day in a closed session at 9:17 a.m.) 19 20 21 22

NEAL R. GROSS
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C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Aviation Technical Services

Before: US DOT/FAA

Date: 10-16-12

Place: Seattle, WA

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

Court Reporter

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