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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

1 

-----------------------------------RE C E IV 

IN THE MATTER OF 

AVIATION TECHNICAL SERVICES, INC. 

NOV -6 2012 

HEARING DOCK T 

Respondent 

FAA Case No. 2010NM010105 

FDMS No. FAA-2011-0682 

Tuesday 

October 16, 2012 

Courtroom 18-206 B 

U.S. District Court 

Western District of Washington 

700 Stewart Street 

Seattle, WA 98101 

The above-entitled matter came on for 

hearing, pursuant to notice, at 9:10 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN, 

United States Administrative Law Judge 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

DANE B. JAQUES, ESQ. 

DOMBROFF GILMORE JAQUES & FRENCH 

1676 International Drive, Penthouse 

McLean, VA 22102 

(703) 966-6111 

On Behalf of the Agency, Department of 

Transportation: 

DAVID F. SHAYNE, ATTORNEY 

Federal Aviation Administration 

Office of Regional Counsel 

Northwest Mountain Region 

1601 Lind Avenue, S.W. 

Renton, WA 98057 

(425) 227-2165 

KAREN DAVIS HUBER, ESQ. 

Federal Aviation Administration 

Office of Regional Counsel 

Northwest Mountain Region 

1601 Lind Avenue, S.W. 

Renton, WA 98057 

(425) 227-1007 

NEAL R. GROSS 

2 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
3 

TABLE OF CONTENTS 

Opening Statement of Agency 

Opening Statement of Respondent 

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

(None) 

Court 

Exhibit Nos. 

E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S 

Document 

CT-A Stipulation of Facts 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 

MARK RECD 

6 6 

www.nealrgross.com 
4 

1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (9:10a.m.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Aviation Technical 

4 Services, Docket No. FAA-2011-0682. 

5 A couple of preliminary matters. 

6 I normally take a break about 10:30. I'm 

7 going to take a break at 10:00 today. I'm 

8 going to meet with --meeting a past chair of 

9 one of the ABA sections. He was chair when I 

10 was chair of the Judicial Division and that 

11 should go until about 1:30. We'll take 

12 another break sometime between 2:30 and 3:00. 

13 I want to make sure we vacate the courtroom on 

14 or about 4:3 0. We've got it scheduled for 

15 tomorrow if we need it. 

16 As you know, some of this is 

17 redundant if you've appeared before me, but 

18 everything that we do goes on the Internet. 

19 The transcript, the exhibits, and everything 

20 else. Since this appears to be a maintenance 

21 case, I want both counsel to be aware of the 

22 fact that this does go on the Internet. If at 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
5 

1 any point you feel the need to seal the 

2 records, in whole or in part, I'm amenable to 

3 that. I would rather err on the part of 

4 sealing the record than having information 

5 that doesn't belong on the Internet on the 

6 Internet. And I mean on the Internet, which 

7 means everybody in the world can access both 

8 the transcript and all the exhibits. 

9 Secondly, when you -- or thirdly, 

10 when you testify when you're witnesses 

11 testify, have them use business addresses and 

12 business phone numbers. Don't use any home 

13 phone numbers, cell phone numbers, home 

14 addresses, anything like that, and if there 

15 are any dates of birth, social security 

16 numbers, anything like that, let's make sure 

17 we redact that. But Ms. Mathews always 

18 reviews to doublecheck. Every once in a while 

19 I' 11 catch something. As Ms. Shayne knows, in 

20 today' s age, we need to be cautious about what 

21 we put on the Internet. 

22 You've already presented the Court 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
6 

1 the exhibits. As you may or may not know, I'm 

2 not wedded to any particular methodology of 

3 marking them as long as the two of you don't 

4 use the identical exhibit numbers. 

5 What I thought I would do am I 

6 correct, Mr. Shayne, that both of you have 

7 agreed on the stipulation of facts, a joint 

8 stip? 

9 MR. SHAYNE: That is correct, Your 

10 Honor. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So what I 

12 think I'll do is I'll make that Court Exhibit 

13 1 just so we 

14 -- and Court Exhibit 1, which is the joint 

15 stipulation of facts, which is dated October 

16 12th, is received in evidence as Court Exhibit 

17 --let's call it A. It'll be Court CT-A so we 

18 don't get confused. 

19 (Whereupon, the above-referred 

20 document was marked as CT-A for 

21 identification and was admitted 

22 into evidence.) 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
7 

1 Any other preliminary matters that 

2 you can think of? 

3 MR. SHAYNE: Just a very brief and 

4 mlnor one, Your Honor, regarding the 

5 stipulations. It was due to an oversight on 

6 my part, and with Mr. Jaques forebearance, I 

7 just wanted to point out that if you look at 

8 stipulation 18, there's kind of a qualified --

9 I wouldn't call it a disclaimer so much as a 

10 qualification -- in parentheses. It says, 

11 "The FAA submits," et cetera. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

13 MR. SHAYNE: That qualification 

14 should also apply to stipulation number 12. 

15 That's the only preliminary matter. 

16 The other thing is the parties 

17 agaln have agreed Mr. Jaques was kind 

18 enough to wal ve the usual demand that 

19 witnesses be sequestered given that there are 

20 no issues in this case having to do with 

21 credibility 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

{202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
8 

1 MR. SHAYNE: -- or fact finding. 

2 All the facts are before the Court. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: So the last four 

4 lines in paragraph 18 of the stipulation, 

5 which is in parenthesis, that also applies to 

6 stipulation number 12? 

7 MR. SHAYNE: That's correct, Your 

8 Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: And counsel have 

10 talked and there's no need for the 

11 sequestration of witnesses; is that correct? 

12 MR. JAQUES: That's correct. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Or as we call it 

14 in Maryland, the rule on witnesses. 

15 Anything else? 

16 MR. SHAYNE: Nothing from the 

17 government, Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

19 MR. JAQUES: I just should mention 

20 that some of the exhibits, at least on our 

21 side and I think on the side of the FAA are 

22 designated Boeing proprietary. So at the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
9 

1 appropriate time, I do beleive we should 

2 request that 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me ask you 

4 this: Philosophically, I would rather seal 

5 than err, and if we're going to be presenting 

6 testimony that mixes proprietary with other 

7 testimony, then I'm inclined to seal the 

8 entire record, to be perfectly honest. Now, 

9 when I seal the record, what that means is 

10 counsel for the FAA, their experts can review 

11 it. Obviously the Respondent and their 

12 parties can review it. The only people in my 

13 office who can see it are myself, Ms. Mathews, 

14 Mr. Liebowitz. If we do that, that means it 

15 won't go on the Internet. We won't have to 

16 worry about sorting through three inches of 

17 stuff to make sure we didn't accidentally put 

18 something in there. It doesn't affect 

19 anything else. 

20 It looks like you're leaning in 

21 favor 

22 of --

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
10 

1 MS. HUBER: Yes. I'd be in 

2 agreement because of the Boeing 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: The other thing is 

4 if we make a typo or we mess something up, 

5 nobody gets to see it. 

6 MR. JAQUES: That's acceptable to 

7 the Respondent as well. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN : Then what we're 

9 going to do, the Court having heard from both 

10 parties and reviewing the scope of this, the 

11 record in this hearing will be sealed. I' 11 

12 issue an order to that effect, and the order 

13 will, in essence, say that it will be sealed, 

14 will be marked ''Confidential, Not for Public 

15 Disclosure." The order goes on to say that 

16 the only parties who can have access to the 

17 file are FAA counsel and parties to the case -

18 Respondent, Respondent's counsel, and 

19 parties to the case, myself, Ms. Mathews, Mr. 

20 Liebowitz, and it can only be unsealed by 

21 further order of me or some appellate body. 

22 Obviously if you appeal, it goes to the Office 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
11 

1 of General Counsel. They obviously have a 

2 right to review it. 

3 The biggest thing is it will not 

4 be on the Internet. It will not be ln 

5 docketing. What will be in docketing is an 

6 order sealing the case. 

7 So do you, mechanically, to the 

8 Court Reporter, do you want to go off the 

9 record and come back on the record in a closed 

10 session or do you just want to mark the whole 

11 thing sealed? It's your call. 

12 COURT REPORTER: It's really up to 

13 you. Why don't we go off and come back on. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. We're 

15 going to go off the record. 

16 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

17 was adjourned at 9:16a.m., to be resumed the 

18 same day in a closed session at 9:17 a.m.) 

19 

20 

21 

22 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
-~~----

A 

ABA4:9 

above-entitled 1: 15 

above-referred 

6:19 

acceptable I 0:6 

access 5:7 10:16 

accidentally 9:17 

addresses 5:11,14 

adjourned 11:17 

Administration 2:9 

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admitted 6:21 

affect 9:18 

age 5:20 

Agency2:6 3:4 

agreed 6:7 7:17 

agreement I 0:2 

amenable 5:2 

appeal! 0:22 

APPEARANCES 

2:1 

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appellate 10:21 

applies 8:5 

apply 7:14 

appropriate 9: I 

ATTORNEY2:8 

Avenue 2:10,19 

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Boeing 8:22 10:2 

break4:6,7,12 

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call6: 17 7:9 8:13 

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case 1:8 4:21 7:20 

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6:17 8:2 10:9 

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courtroom 1: 12 

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CT-A3:22 6:17,20 

everybody 5:7 

evidence 6:16,22 

exhibit 3:20 6:4,12 

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Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

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Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 13 

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2010NM010105 

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14 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Aviation Technical Services 

Before: US DOT/FAA 

Date: 10-16-12 

Place: Seattle, WA 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

Court Reporter 

(202} 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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