# Date: December 9, 2014

**Case:** Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For

Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Phone: 202-347-3700 Fax: 202-737-3638 Email: info@acefederal.com Internet: www.acefederal.comEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS: PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS FOR COMMERCIAL PACKAGED BOILERS PUBLIC MEETING TUESDAY, DECEMBER 9, 2014

FORRESTAL BUILDING, ROOM 8E-089 1000 INDEPENDENCE AVENUE, S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## GROUPS MEMBERS/PARTICIPANTS: 2 

## Doug Brookman, Public Solutions 3 

## Jim Raba, U.S. Department of Energy 4 

## Chuck White, Plumbing-Heating-Cooling 5 

## Contractors National Association 6 

## Frank Stanonik, Air Conditioning, Heating and 7 

## Refrigeration Institute 8 

## Rohit Andhare, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 9 

## Eric Stas, U.S. Department of Energy 10 

## Adam Darlington, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 11 

## Rupam Singla, Lawrence Berkeley National 12 

## Laboratory 13 

## David Winiarski, Pacific Northwest National 14 

## Laboratory 15 

## Felipe Leon, Pacific Northwest National 16 

## Laboratory 17 

## Alex Lekov, Lawrence Berkeley National 18 

## Laboratory 19 

## Harvey Sachs, American Council for an 20 

## Energy-Efficient Economy 21 

## Andrew Allen, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 22 

## Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of EnergyEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### 1 

## GROUPS MEMBERS/PARTICIPANTS: 2 3 

## By Telephone: 4 

## Geoffrey Halley, American Boiler Manufacturers 5 

## Association 6 7 

## Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness 8 

## Project 9 

## Robert Glass, Raypak, Inc. 10 

## Jeff Kleiss, Lochnivar, LLC 11 

## Frank Myers, PVI Industries, LLC 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## A G E N D A 2 

## Page 3 4 5 

## Welcome and Introductions................... 5 6 

## Meeting Overview........................... 8 7 

## Background Information..................... 12 8 

## Market Impact Assessment/Screening Analysis 17 9 

## Markups, Energy Use Characterization and LCC 72 10 

## Shipments and National Impact Analysis...... 162 11 

## Next Steps.................................. 193 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## P R O C E E D I N G S 2 

## 9:07 a.m. 3 

## Welcome and Introductions 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning everyone, 5 

## welcome. This is the United States Department of 6 

## Energy's Energy Conservation Standards Preliminary 7 

## Analysis for Commercial Packaged Boilers meeting. 8 

## Today is December 9th, 2014, here in Washington, D.C. 9 

## in the Forrestal Building. 10 

## My name's Doug Brookman, Public Solutions, 11 

## Baltimore. Nice to see you here this morning. We're 12 

## going to start with welcoming remarks from Jim Raba. 13 

## MR. RABA: Good morning everyone, and 14 

## welcome. Whether you're attending today this public 15 

## meeting in person or via the webinar, this is the 16 

## U.S. Department of Energy's public meeting about 17 

## commercial packaged boilers, where we'll address our 18 

## preliminary analysis of this equipment. 19 

## The purpose of the preliminary analysis is 20 

## to address the methodologies and characterize the 21 

## results thus far for those analyses, discuss 22 

## particular issues related to each of the analyses,Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## encourage input from interested parties, comments, 2 

## data and relevant information about the 3 

## methodologies, assumptions and data sources, and 4 

## address the next steps in the Department of Energy's 5 

## rulemaking process. 6 

## My name is Jim Raba. I'm the Project 7 

## Manager for Commercial Packaged Boilers, and I'll be 8 

## today's Presiding Officer. Moreover, the real 9 

## expertise behind this rulemaking process is from 10 

## Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and Navigant 11 

## Consulting. 12 

## Today some of our team members are Rupam 13 

## Singla, Alex Lekov, Rohit Andhare, Andrew Allen, Adam 14 

## Darlington. General Counsel for the Department of 15 

## Energy is Eric Stas. The Appliance Standards Program 16 

## Manager is John Cymbalsky. Our facilitator at 17 

## today's public meeting, is Doug Brookman, President 18 

## of Public Solutions, a mediation company. Doug is 19 

## our go-to guy for public meetings such as this. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: No. 21 

## MR. RABA: Doug, over to you. Thank you. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We always start withEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### introductions. Please state your name and organizational 2 

### affiliation. You can get used to turning the microphones 3 

### both on and off. 4 

### MR. WHITE: My name is Chuck White. I'm 5 

### Vice President of Technical and Code Services for the 6 

### Plumbing-Heating and Cooling Contractors National 7 

### Association. 8 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, Air 9 

### Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute. 10 

### MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, American Council 11 

### for an Energy Efficient Economy. 12 

### MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington, Navigant 13 

### Consulting. 14 

### MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE General Counsel's 15 

### Office. 16 

### MR. RABA: Jim Raba, DOE. 17 

### (Off mic introduction.) 18 

### MR. RABA: It's okay, please. 19 

### (Off mic introduction.) 20 

### MR. ALLEN: Andrew Allen, Navigant 21 

### Consulting. 22 

### MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence BerkeleyEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## National Laboratory. 2 

## MS. SINGLA: Rupam Singla, Lawrence 3 

## Berkeley National Laboratory. 4 

## MR. LEON: Felipe Leon, Pacific 5 

## Northwest National Laboratory. 6 

## Meeting Overview 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thanks to all 8 

## of you, and when you are responding to questions 9 

## during the course of the meeting, we'll use that 10 

## microphone, okay. All of you received a packet of 11 

## information as you checked in this morning. I'm 12 

## going to do a very brief agenda review. You can see 13 

## it's Slide No. 4 in your packet. 14 

## Immediately following this agenda review 15 

## and a few other preliminary matters, there's an 16 

## opportunity for anybody that wishes to make brief 17 

## opening statements here at the outset, issues that 18 

## you wish to raise here that are important to be 19 

## featured from your perspective here at the outset. 20 

## Following that, we're going to move into a 21 

## description of the regulatory authority and 22 

## rulemaking overview, and moving directly to MarketEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### Technology Assessment and Screening Analysis, then 2 

### Engineering Analysis. We'll take a break 3 

### mid-morning, around about 10:45, wherever we are in 4 

### the content at that point. 5 

### Returning from the break or whenever we 6 

### get there, Markups, Energy Use Characterization and 7 

### then LCC and Payback Period Analyses. Lunch today 8 

### around about noon. I'll describe the logistics 9 

### surrounding lunch when we get there, and then 10 

### returning from lunch, LCC and Payback Period 11 

### Analysis, continued. National Impact Analysis. 12 

### We'll take a break mid-afternoon as 13 

### needed, around about 2:15, 2:30 or so, and then 14 

### moving on, Preliminary Manufacturer Impact Analysis, Next 15 

### Steps. And then at the end of the day, whenever we 16 

### arrive there, another opportunity for closing 17 

### remarks. Any other issues that need to be raised at 18 

### that point, that you think may not have been covered 19 

### sufficiently. 20 

### If you look at page two in your packet, 21 

### these are the suggested norms that we'd ask that you 22 

### please speak one at a time. You can turn theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## microphone on and off as you've gotten used to doing 2 

## already. 3 

## Please say your name for the record each 4 

## time you speak. They'll be a complete transcript of 5 

## this meeting. If you could be concise to share the 6 

## air time and keep the focus here. If your cell 7 

## phones are not on silent already, please turn them on 8 

## silent and limit sidebar conversations. 9 

## Webinar participants, we welcome you. As 10 

## Jim Raba has said, please turn your telephones on 11 

## mute. You can raise your hand in the software that 12 

## has been provided to be recognized to speak. 13 

## We ought to be able to hear you in the 14 

## room. It's been pretty good of late, so you can 15 

## participate in this meeting real time. And as moving 16 

## on through this packet, the Department of Energy is 17 

## broadcasting this public meeting live over the 18 

## Internet for interested parties, and I understand we 19 

## have about 13 or 15 individuals on the line today. 20 

## We welcome you and want you to participate 21 

## in this meeting as you wish to, and all interested 22 

## parties, both here in person and on the web areEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### encouraged to submit written comments after the 2 

### public meeting. That's really critical for the 3 

### Department, to get a good handle on what the concerns 4 

### of stakeholders are. 5 

### So then do you wish to introduce the next 6 

### element? 7 

### MR. RABA: Sure. Well good morning. This 8 

### is Jim Raba again. This is a time we customarily 9 

### look to you for any opening statements you wish to 10 

### make in your remarks. At this time, we invite anyone 11 

### to share those opening remarks or statements about 12 

### DOE's preliminary analysis for commercial packaged 13 

### boilers. 14 

### So I invite -- does anybody wish to make 15 

### an opening statement or brief comments at this time, 16 

### here live or on the webinar? 17 

### (No response.) 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: I see no one in the room. 19 

### Okay. Then let's proceed with the content in the 20 

### packet. Okay. 21 

### MR. RABA: You see here on the screen an Issue 22 

### Box, and as we will do throughout the public meetingEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### today, have boxes like this, to encourage your 2 

### comments. Now during today's presentation, 3 

### particular issues are prompted for discussion on slides 4 

### such as this. 5 

### Otherwise, comments about any part of the 6 

### presentation are welcome throughout. When you submit 7 

### comments, please identify the docket number and/or 8 

### the regulatory identifier. Comments are due by 9 

### January 20th, 2015, and their address is there to 10 

### email, postal or courier to the Department. Any 11 

### questions so far? 12 

### None seen at this time, I can introduce 13 

### Rohit Andhare, who will talk today now about some of 14 

### the overview, the definitions and other background 15 

### information about our presentation today, and the 16 

### preliminary analysis. 17 

### Background Information 18 

### MR. ANDHARE: All right. Good morning 19 

### everyone. So I'll start with the introduction and 20 

### the overview. The first thing is the regulatory 21 

### authority. There are four Acts which are relevant to 22 

### the current rulemaking. The first one is EPCA ofEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### 1975. This Act brought about, started the energy 2 

### conservation standard program at DOE. 3 

### The second is EPACT of 1992, and this Act 4 

### brought commercial packaged products as a type of 5 

### equipment for the rulemakings. Then we have EISA and 6 

### AEMTCA. These acts amended EPCA to have DOE review the 7 

### standards every six years. 8 

### The last rulemaking for this equipment was 9 

### back in July 2009. So six years from then, July 10 

### 2015, is when by which DOE will complete its review. 11 

### So what is a commercial packaged boiler? A 12 

### commercial packaged boiler is essentially a low 13 

### pressure packaged boiler. It has a maximum input 14 

### rating capacity of 300 kBTU per hour, at least 300 kBTU 15 

### per hour, and it is usually used for commercial space16 

### heating applications. 17 

### The definitions are also on the slides, 18 

### and they can be used for future reference. So these 19 

### are the current standards that we have for commercial 20 

### packaged boilers, and this is the result from the 21 

### July 2009 rulemaking, and here we have ten equipment 22 

### classes.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### Eight of these equipment classes -- so 2 

### eight equipment classes are formed by classifying the 3 

### equipment based on the size, that is small or large, 4 

### the fuel input, the type of fuel, that is gas or oil, 5 

### and the type of output, that is hot water or steam. 6 

### Two of these equipment classes, that is 7 

### the steam gas-fired, the small and large steam 8 

### gas-fired boilers, are further classified based on 9 

### the draft type. So where do we stand? Currently we 10 

### are -- so we've already released the framework 11 

### document last year. This was back in September, and 12 

### then followed by the public meeting in October for 13 

### the framework document, and we've already released 14 

### the preliminary analysis TSD chapters, and the 15 

### comments are due by January 20th, 2015. 16 

### There are two rulemakings which are 17 

### on-going and parallel to this one. The first one is 18 

### coverage determination for natural draft commercial 19 

### packaged boilers, and the second one is the test 20 

### procedure rulemaking for this equipment. 21 

### I'd like to note over here that the analysis 22 

### that is covered under this presentation and in theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## TSD chapters is based on the existing test procedures 2 

## which are mentioned in the CFR. 3 

## So here's our time line. We're at 4 

## Preliminary Analysis. NOPR is, as I said, it's due 5 

## by July 2015. This is the projected time, and final 6 

## rule is projected by 2016. 7 

## So typically when DOE does its analysis, 8 

## it considers these seven factors, which are mentioned 9 

## in EPCA, and all these factors are addressed in the 10 

## respective analysis. So for example, for the 11 

## economic impact on consumers and manufacturers, this 12 

## is addressed by the life cycle cost analysis and 13 

## manufacturer impact analysis. 14 

## So throughout this presentation, we'll be 15 

## talking about all these analysis and the results, and 16 

## they address these seven factors. So we're at the 17 

## Preliminary Analysis, and now we move on to the 18 

## second topic of discussion, that's the market and tech 19 

## assessment, and the screening analysis. 20 

## We'll first talk about the market -- 21 

## sorry. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. FrankEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## Stanonik. 2 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 3 

## Before we leave the time line, it's -- well, it is 4 

## related. I'm just curious as to can DOE give us some 5 

## idea of where the test procedure rulemaking and the 6 

## coverage determination activities fall in on this 7 

## time line, because -- and the reason we bring that up 8 

## is that from my perspective, as we have said in 9 

## previous comments, it is absolutely necessary that 10 

## the test procedure revision be done before this 11 

## rulemaking. 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I answer that for you? 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, that's great. 14 

## VOICES: Identify yourself. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong. 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm Ashley from DOE. I 17 

## wasn't going to say anything, but I was quietly 18 

## sitting in the back corner. 19 

## [Inaudible] I wouldn't believe that. 20 

## (Laughter.) 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So we agree. We agree, 22 

## Frank, the test procedure NOPR is expected to comeEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## out, I would say the hope is that it will be out 2 

## early next year. So you will likely see that well in 3 

## advance. We're trying to get the preliminary 4 

## analysis out, trying to get some feedback and some 5 

## additional data to incorporate into the NOPR. 6 

## To the extent we make revisions to the 7 

## test procedure that would impact the measures, 8 

## obviously they would be rolled into the NOPR 9 

## analysis, as well as any data. But we wanted to make 10 

## sure we got this out as early as possible, to start 11 

## the process of getting some data and good feedback, 12 

## okay. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Ashley. 14 

## Additional questions before we move on? No, okay. 15 

## MR. RABA: We're moving on. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: All right. 17 

## Market Impact Assessment/Screening Analysis 18 

## MR. ANDHARE: So our second topic of 19 

## discussion is market and tech assessment and screening 20 

## analysis. We'll first do the market impact 21 

## assessment. The purpose of the market and technology 22 

## assessment is to understand the market, to see howEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## can we divide the equipment into equipment classes, 2 

## and then we look at the voluntary regulatory programs 3 

## that are ongoing for this equipment. 4 

## We also look at the manufacturers and the 5 

## trade associations, which are dealing in this 6 

## equipment, and then we look at what are the 7 

## constituents of -- what are the components of a 8 

## commercial package boiler. Once we have that 9 

## information, we then go on to identifying the 10 

## technology options that will improve the efficiency 11 

## of the boiler. 12 

## So for the first step, we first divide the 13 

## equipment based on the ten equipment classes. So 14 

## here we have 16 equipment classes. Three of those 15 

## are based on the four factors which are involved for 16 

## the classification. The first one is the size, the 17 

## small or large. The second is the type of fuel 18 

## input, that's whether gas or oil. The third is based 19 

## on the output, that is hot water steam, and the 20 

## fourth one is also based on mechanical draft or 21 

## natural draft. 22 

## So the scope of the current rulemakingEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## includes all commercial boilers that have an input 2 

## capacity of at least 300 kBTU per hour, and they also 3 

## include all the factors that I talked about, whether 4 

## it can be fired by gas or oil, and that's natural gas 5 

## or propane, and mechanical draft or natural draft in 6 

## hot water or steam or both. 7 

## Here, we will not be addressing electric 8 

## commercial package boilers, and this is because most 9 

## of these boilers already reach 100 percent efficiency. 10 

## So there is very small scope for efficiency 11 

## improvement and negligible energy savings. 12 

## We will also not be looking into standby 13 

## mode and off mode energy conservation standards. 14 

## Again, according to our estimates, the standby mode 15 

## and off mode contribute to very low energy 16 

## consumption, and most of it is consumed during the 17 

## active mode of the boiler. We will also not be 18 

## setting an upper limit for regulating the commercial 19 

## package boilers. 20 

## So once we have -- we have classified the 21 

## equipment based on equipment classes, we then go on 22 

## to the analysis. So we hit -- we went through eachEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## and every equipment class, and looked at what are the 2 

## kind of input ratings there are in each equipment 3 

## class. What are the efficiency levels that we see; 4 

## what are the kind of materials that are used. 5 

## So these are some factors that we looked 6 

## at for each equipment class. Here is a sample result 7 

## of the first equipment class that we looked at, 8 

## that's the small gas-fired mechanical draft hot water. 9 

## So you will see these charts in the Chapter 3 of the 10 

## TSD, and over here in the first -- 11 

## In the first chart we have the average 12 

## thermal efficiency. So what we did was we divided 13 

## all the equipment class based on small input rating 14 

## categories, and then analyzed the efficiencies in 15 

## each of these categories. 16 

## We also looked at the percentage of the 17 

## distribution of boilers based on the materials. So 18 

## for this equipment class, we can see that 62 percent 19 

## is based on copper. And finally, the last chart at 20 

## the bottom shows the distribution of the boilers, 21 

## based on thermal efficiency. 22 

## So we divided the boilers into condensingEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### 1 

## and non-condensing, and we saw where most of the 2 

## boilers lie, at what efficiencies most of them 3 

## perform. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs. 5 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and as I go 6 

## back to Slide 20, the last bullet says there's no 7 

## upper limit of input capacity set for regulating 8 

## commercial packaged boilers. 9 

## MR. ANDHARE: Yes. 10 

## MR. SACHS: And it's just having sat 11 

## through a great deal of discussion of this issue in 12 

## the Certification and Compliance and Enforcement 13 

## Negotiated Rulemaking in 2013, I came away somewhat 14 

## struck by the challenges in actually assuring CC&E 15 

## for very, very large boilers, and wonder if we're 16 

## going to have regulation without enforcement or if 17 

## the Department is planning ahead to enforcement for 18 

## say 10 million Btu boilers? 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Eric Stas. 20 

## MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE. I mean as you 21 

## know, the standards currently have no upper limit, 22 

## and then we're confronted with the provision of 42Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### U.S.C. Section 6095.01, which says that the Secretary 2 

### can't issue a standard that decreases energy 3 

### efficiency or increases the maximum allowable energy 4 

### use, you know, commonly referred to as an 5 

### anti-backsliding provision. So we have that to 6 

### contend with. 7 

### So that's why we're not considering an 8 

### upper limit on the capacities at this time. However, 9 

### I'm sure there are mechanisms available to look at 10 

### how these units, larger units would be tested. AEDMs 11 

### is one thing that comes to mind. 12 

### So I think the Department is sensitive to 13 

### those concerns and, you know, we look for comments on 14 

### how to address those type of concerns. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Eric, would just spell out 16 

### AEDM? 17 

### MR. STAS: Alternative -- 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Energy Determination 19 

### Method? 20 

### MR. RABA: This is Jim. Alternative Efficiency 21 

### Determination Method. 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay, thanks.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## Okay, Harvey. 2 

## MR. SACHS: I think we have a record now. 3 

## Thank you. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. All right. 5 

## MR. ANDHARE: So once we have market 6 

## analysis results, we then go on to identifying what 7 

## are the components involved in the operation of a 8 

## boiler. So the slide shows the basic components that 9 

## are involved. So it's identified by gas or oil for 10 

## our case at least, for our rulemaking at least, and 11 

## for oil it will use an oil pump and an atomizer. 12 

## The atomizer sprays the oil into the air, 13 

## and it can be either a mechanical draft system or a 14 

## natural draft system. A mechanical draft would 15 

## either have a forced draft fan blower or it could 16 

## have an inducer draft fan. 17 

## Then there are burners. The burners can 18 

## be of a single stage, double stage or it can be 19 

## modulating. The burners ignite the air gas or 20 

## and oil mixture, and this -- and it transfers -- and 21 

## the flue gases transfer heat to the water in the 22 

## heat exchanger.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## The heat exchanger can also have multiple 2 

## designs. It can have multiple materials, cast iron, 3 

## stainless steel, copper fin, copper tube, or fire4 

## tube boilers. It can have multiple designs as well, 5 

## and the primary mode of heat transfer is convection 6 

## and radiation. 7 

## Once the heat is transferred, the flue 8 

## gases are vented out through the flue stack. For 9 

## natural draft, we also have vent damper. This is 10 

## the basic model of the boiler, and we now -- once we 11 

## know this, now we can identify how we can improve the 12 

## efficiency of the boiler. 13 

## So these are the technology options that 14 

## DOE identified for improving the thermal or 15 

## combustion efficiency. Most of the concentration is 16 

## on improving the heat exchanger, so either improving 17 

## the fin tube design or the surface features, and 18 

## also there's an interest in looking at improvements 19 

## in burner technology. So there is an option for 20 

## premix burners or low pressure air-atomized burners. 21 

## So that completes our market and tech 22 

## assessment, and we have some issues of comment.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### You'll take them? Doug? 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: No, please. 3 

### MR. ANDHARE: So there are two issues for 4 

### comment over here. The first one is the DOE seeks comment 5 

### about the scope and technology options to improve 6 

### combustion and/or thermal efficiency, and the second 7 

### issue is DOE seeks comment on the appropriateness of its 8 

### decision to -- tentative decision to classify 9 

### commercial boilers into 16 equipment classes. 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: So it's useful to get 11 

### comment on this particular item, particularly Issue 12 

### 2. Especially if you like what the Department has 13 

### done, it's useful to indicate that. Frank Stanonik. 14 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. On 15 

### Issue 1, I mean I think we've provided comments 16 

### before. You know, if we're sitting here ten years 17 

### ago, burner derating was still a practical option. 18 

### But between efficiency standards and demands of the 19 

### market, our perspective is that most products have 20 

### been -- 21 

### You know, that was one of the easiest and 22 

### first things that people did to improve theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## efficiency of their models. So we don't really see 2 

## that there's much room for further burner derating of 3 

## boiler models on the market today. So we really 4 

## think that particular technology option has kind of 5 

## been there, done that, as opposed to still viable -- 6 

## still providing some significant benefit. 7 

## Other than that, again, we've said, for 8 

## whatever reasons -- I mean we've said many things. 9 

## Pulse combustion is just another way to get a 10 

## condensing boiler. We really don't see it as a 11 

## distinct technology. But just, I guess just make 12 

## that statement. 13 

## Issue 2, I guess I'm missing something, 14 

## because when I looked at Slide 12, I got two, four, 15 

## six, eight, ten classes. How did we get to 16? What 16 

## am I missing? 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Back to Slide 19. 18 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay. 19 

## MR. ANDHARE: Here, there are 16. 20 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay, okay. I got it, yep, 21 

## yep. At this point, we'd certainly agree you can 22 

## start from there. As the analysis goes forward, weEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## may find out you can squeeze some together. But I 2 

## guess for the preliminary analysis, we would agree 3 

## you have to look at it this way. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Frank. 5 

## Additional thoughts on Issue No. 1 and 2? Nothing 6 

## additional. 7 

## MR. ANDHARE: Okay. So -- 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs. 9 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs, and it 10 

## relates here and it will come up again. But the 11 

## decision not to really look at modulating burners or 12 

## multi-stage burners is driven by the defects in the 13 

## current test procedure, and we think we need in the 14 

## market analysis in particular to continue to look at 15 

## the market share and penetration of these, since we 16 

## anticipate that the next rating method, test method 17 

## will show the benefits in the field of the use of 18 

## modulating burners in raising the efficiency, the 19 

## reported efficiency. 20 

## So I think that I'm uncomfortable with the 21 

## decision not to look at modulating burners, but 22 

## instead just to consider them baseline technology.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Do we 2 

## have any additional thoughts on modulating burners? 3 

## MR. ANDHARE: I'd like to supply. So we 4 

## do look at modulating burners in the market 5 

## assessment. For example, go here in the bottom 6 

## slide. We actually look at the distribution of 7 

## burners that are modulating and are condensing and 8 

## modulating, and are non-modulating. So we do look at 9 

## it in the market and assessment stage and then, you 10 

## know. 11 

## The other thing is that current test 12 

## procedure does not -- it doesn't matter if it's 13 

## modulating or not, because it has to operate at the 14 

## full input rating capacity. 15 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I appreciate 16 

## that the test procedure is a full load test, and 17 

## that's why it is so totally obsolete, and I very much 18 

## appreciate that you're including this in the market 19 

## analysis. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm going to turn the 21 

## question back to you for a second, and maybe to Frank 22 

## too. This is Ashley from DOE. I don't know how farEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## the discussions have gone within the HI Committee at 2 

## AHRI about moving to a part load. Initially, there 3 

## was some discussion. We also teed it up in the RFI 4 

## about moving to potentially a part-load type test. 5 

## Not to hijack the standards presentation, 6 

## but -- and there was some, I would say, caution of 7 

## moving to a part-load test, one from the test program 8 

## standpoint, but two, at least for this round of rule. 9 

## I was just was wondering if the HI Committee had come 10 

## -- I know you were both on the HI Committee. So I 11 

## don't know if the HI Committee has made any further 12 

## progress with what they're doing. 13 

## That's not to say DOE has made it -- 14 

## obviously, DOE has made some internal decisions about 15 

## what they're doing, but I would be interested to 16 

## know. 17 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI, and 18 

## HI is the Hydronics Institute section of AHRI. 19 

## Actually, at this point, our members are much more of 20 

## the opinion that for this particular process, both 21 

## this standard rulemaking and the test procedure 22 

## rulemaking, that we not get into the complexity ofEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### part load. 2 

### And so that is something we see as will be 3 

### ultimately addressed by the ASHRAE Standard 155, and 4 

### in the interim, the industry would -- until that gets 5 

### finalized, which will still take some time. Our 6 

### position would be that we proceed with the procedures 7 

### that we have, which at the moment don't look at part 8 

### load and that this rulemaking also deal with that 9 

### situation. 10 

### So we recognize that it will ultimately -- 11 

### there will be procedures that include some part load 12 

### measures. But we see that as the culmination of the 13 

### 155 activity, and we just don't see that that will be 14 

### done in time for either of these rulemakings. 15 

### MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I'm scared 16 

### to say what I'm going to say. ASHRAE 155 spent 17 

### almost 15 years delivering a standard that was 18 

### stillborn. It could not be implemented. AHRI and HI has 19 

### been working on 2000, at a pace that continues, and 20 

### at this point we feel that we're running out of time. 21 

### We're running out of time relative to 22 

### what's happening elsewhere in the world, and relativeEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## to the need to reduce the fuel consumed for all sorts 2 

## of reasons, economic and environmental. 3 

## Although I'm going back to my colleagues, 4 

## I think there needs to be a strong signal that if our 5 

## friends in the consensus community, which includes 6 

## me, don't get their act in gear by a firm date, DOE 7 

## will issue its own standard that reflects the value 8 

## of part-load capability. 9 

## To customers and the industry, it's not 10 

## choosing what to design and what to select on our 11 

## building-based applications. 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to ask one 13 

## follow-on, to put you a little bit on the spot, and 14 

## don't feel like you need to answer it here. But I 15 

## will ask perhaps that you consider what that time 16 

## frame might look like for DOE to consider. 17 

## MR. SACHS: Well Ashley, this is Harvey, 18 

## and having cast asparagus at AHRI and ASHRAE, I have 19 

## to do the same to DOE, and say that if y'all hadn't 20 

## -- had started investing and doing appropriate fuel 21 

## measurements 20 years ago, we'd know what we needed. 22 

## Now, just as with residential lightEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## commercial water heating, water heaters, we have a 2 

## real deficit in knowledge, and at some point, 3 

## somebody's going to have to say we're jumping in. 4 

## We're doing the best we can. It's going to work for 5 

## the next decade while we embark on an aggressive 6 

## program of fuel monitoring, to find out what the hell 7 

## is happening. End of rant. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here 9 

## before we move on? 10 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 11 

## Certainly the issue of what regulations require, what 12 

## test procedures require have significant impacts. 13 

## But I just want to note that for whatever 14 

## it's worth, in ASHRAE Standard 90, which covers 15 

## energy and conservation in commercial buildings, 16 

## there's actually been requirements for quite some 17 

## time, that requires controls for the boiler-based 18 

## heating system, that in fact tried to manage the 19 

## firing according to the load. That's been there in 20 

## Standard 90 for a while. 21 

## So you know, whether I guess my point here 22 

## is, you know, whether or not there's today a testEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## procedure for part load, there have been other 2 

## factors in the market that I think, as you mentioned 3 

## here, you know, there are a number of models that 4 

## have modulating controls. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 6 

## MR. STANONIK: I guess the savings is 7 

## happening. 8 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and again, I'm 9 

## ahead of my community. I'm casting a blank shell 10 

## across the bow. But I think this is an area which we 11 

## are going to emphasize. I think BTS-2000 is an 12 

## entirely appropriate approach for some industrial 13 

## applications. Buildings have climate. I think that 14 

## we just don't know what we see, and this is one of 15 

## the areas for the market assessment also. 16 

## We think we see some shift from using 17 

## larger boilers, for which we can't get good use 18 

## information, good information on how they utilize 19 

## energy in the field at part load, because we don't 20 

## measure it, toward using trains of smaller boilers, 21 

## and this is going to have some impact on the market 22 

## also.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## So I think this is an absolutely first 2 

## order issue for the industry, as well as the 3 

## purchasers and users. At the same time, I think this 4 

## proceeding must proceed getting the information 5 

## required for doing -- for working with a revised test 6 

## method. But I am not now asking for delay in this 7 

## proceeding. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Harvey. 9 

## Okay. 10 

## MR. ANDHARE: All right, thank you. 11 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. One 12 

## last time on this. I will submit into the record an 13 

## ASHRAE journal article from almost a decade ago from 14 

## Durkin, reflecting the challenges that customers in 15 

## commercial buildings have in choosing equipment and 16 

## then selling the choice of the more efficient 17 

## equipment, given the defects in the standard. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 19 

## MR. ANDHARE: All right. So we now go to 20 

## the screening analysis. So in the screening 21 

## analysis, we screen out technologies which fail 22 

## certain criterias that DOE sets. There are fourEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### criterias, and those are mentioned in the slide. 2 

### I'll just repeat them: That's technological 3 

### feasibility, practicability to manufacture and 4 

### install, and the adverse effects on equipment utility 5 

### and human health. 6 

### These are the technology options that pass 7 

### the screening test. The box on the left shows these 8 

### options, and as I mentioned earlier, the interest was 9 

### in looking at options which improve heat exchanger 10 

### performance, and this involves innovative fin designs and 11 

### even looking at surface enhancement features. 12 

### We also looked at burners, how can we 13 

### improve the burner performance, there are the three options 14 

### that I mentioned earlier. The burner derating has an 15 

### adverse impact on the end user, because the end user 16 

### would get a lower utility from the boilers. So 17 

### that's why it's not included. It failed the 18 

### screening test. 19 

### There are some options over here which 20 

### passed the screening test but were not considered by 21 

### DOE, and this is mainly because the current -- based 22 

### on the current test procedure, there is negligible orEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## a very low impact on the energy savings or efficiency 2 

## improvement. So these are the options, and we now 3 

## have issues for comment. 4 

## So DOE is interested in views about the 5 

## technological and economic feasibility of the 6 

## technology options which successfully passed the 7 

## screening test. Do you have any comments? 8 

## (Off-mic comment.) 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. No comments here, 10 

## and in particular nothing that was missed here in 11 

## this Slide 27. 12 

## (No response.) 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: No. Okay, thanks. Okay, 14 

## moving on. 15 

## MR. ANDHARE: Okay. So now we go to our 16 

## third topic of discussion, the engineering analysis. 17 

## So the purpose of the engineering analysis is to 18 

## establish the relationship between the manufacturer's 19 

## selling prices and the efficiency levels. The 20 

## results that we obtain from the engineering analysis 21 

## go into all the downstream analysis like life cycle 22 

## cost analysis, energy use, Manufacturer ImpactEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## Analysis and National Impact Analysis. 2 

## So for getting the information for this 3 

## analysis, we looked at different sources, and our 4 

## main source of information was the prices that we got 5 

## from manufacturers and contractors to carry out this 6 

## analysis. 7 

## MR. SACHS: As a matter of record, this is 8 

## Harvey again, AC Triple E notes that the upper graph 9 

## of the analysis are based in a snapshot in time, 10 

## although it's much less relevant for this very mature 11 

## set of technologies with large international firms 12 

## involved, than it is for some products. 13 

## We would note for the record that DOE has 14 

## consistently underestimated the changes in cost for 15 

## advanced technologies as they became standard 16 

## products or lower-priced premium products with 17 

## advances in the standards. I think this conceptual 18 

## model has to be qualified as being a snapshot rather 19 

## than a movie, as people do their thinking. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 21 

## MR. ANDHARE: Thank you. So there are 22 

## several steps that we follow to carry out theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## engineering analysis, and I'll be discussing about 2 

## these steps more in detail. But they're on your 3 

## screen for a quick view. So we first will talk about 4 

## the baseline models. 5 

## So the first step is to identify what are 6 

## the baseline efficiencies. For our case, for our 7 

## rulemaking, we've used the baseline efficiencies 8 

## based on the current energy conservation standards 9 

## for this equipment. 10 

## So we also -- the other thing that we also 11 

## look at is the common technologies that are used in 12 

## baselines, and this helps us validate if there is an 13 

## efficiency improvement, then what is that, because 14 

## what is -- why did that improvement occur? 15 

## So for example, if there is a much better 16 

## burner, then we know that the efficiency improvement 17 

## is because of that burner. So it kind of helped us 18 

## validate our findings, and here on the screen we have 19 

## the baseline efficiencies. I would also like to 20 

## point out that we'll be using some acronyms to 21 

## describe the equipment classes. 22 

## So for example, SGMDHW would refer to aEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## small gas mechanical draft hot water, and they're on 2 

## your screen for your view. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Before you move on, Joanna 4 

## Mauer, who's joining us via the web, has a question 5 

## is could DOE explain the rationale for considering 6 

## separate equipment classes for mechanical draft and 7 

## natural draft boilers? 8 

## MR. DARLINGTON: Well I mean so -- 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Adam Darlington. 10 

## MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington, 11 

## Navigant. Sorry. So regarding the steam classes, 12 

## the natural draft and mechanical draft are already 13 

## separated in the current standards. The other 14 

## classes are not currently separated by the standards. 15 

## But I think as was explained a few slides 16 

## ago, we're analyzing 16 product classes on the basis 17 

## of the coverage determination that DOE is making, 18 

## where DOE is, I guess, doing the cover determination 19 

## to clarify its authority to cover the natural draft 20 

## product classes. So -- and Eric, you can chime in on 21 

## the legal opinion. But I think that they have to be 22 

## separated because of that.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Eric, do you want to -- 2 

### (Off mic comment.) 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 4 

### MR. DARLINGTON: So it has to do with the 5 

### coverage determination and keeping them separate. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay, thank you 7 

### Adam. Thank you. Okay. 8 

### MR. ANDHARE: So 9 

### then we move on the next step, that is determining 10 

### the intermediate and max tech efficiency levels. So 11 

### the intermediate and max tech efficiency levels are 12 

### -- they identified from the commonly available efficiency 13 

### levels that we see on the market, and on the bottom 14 

### over here, the tables, the boxes you can see the 15 

### efficiency levels that we'll be looking at, and we'll 16 

### be analyzing all classes, incremental prices for all 17 

### these. 18 

### The reference point is of course the 19 

### baseline. We will be looking at the efficiency 20 

### improvement from the baseline and also the 21 

### incremental price from the price of baseline models. We're 22 

### also looking at the condensing efficiency levels. SoEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## all efficiency levels that have -- that are above 90 2 

## percent are condensing boilers efficiency levels. 3 

## So after that we move on to collecting the 4 

## data, and as I mentioned -- sorry yes. 5 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. So 6 

## on this slide, and I'll apologize, I've not read the 7 

## whole TSD yet. So are these the standard trial 8 

## levels that you're going to be looking at? 9 

## MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington, 10 

## Navigant. So these are the efficiency levels. 11 

## MR. STANONIK: Yes. 12 

## MR. DARLINGTON: And so when we get to the 13 

## NOPR phase, we'll construct the trial standard levels 14 

## out of combinations of these efficiency levels. Is 15 

## that -- 16 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay. So I guess I'll ask 17 

## my question. Then maybe you can -- well, I'll ask 18 

## the question. So as an example, in the, let's see, 19 

## small oil mechanical draft hot water, I mean you go 20 

## from 87 to 98, and there's no question making a 21 

## condensing oil product has many challenges to it. 22 

## But having said that, you know, why noEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## interim point? I mean there's a huge -- it's like 2 

## you went from the maximum non-condensing level to 3 

## really what would be, I would say actually the 4 

## practical absolute maximum on a condensing level, 5 

## with no interim values. Why? 6 

## MR. DARLINGTON: So these were based on -- 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Adam Darlington. 8 

## MR. DARLINGTON: Oh sorry, Adam 9 

## Darlington, Navigant. So these are based on our view 10 

## of the market. I can't recall exactly what's out 11 

## there Frank, but so the 98's included because it's 12 

## the max tech, and there's a legal obligation to look 13 

## at the max tech. 14 

## As far as an intermediate level, I mean if 15 

## you think an intermediate level should be there, 16 

## we'll certainly take that under consideration and 17 

## look again, and potentially add one for the NOPR. 18 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay, Adam. I think your 19 

## answer that you've looked at what's out there really 20 

## kind of explains that. Again there's, at the moment, 21 

## for that particular class of products, not much out 22 

## there. Okay, thank you.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. STAS: And if you have data to 2 

## back up that suggestion, that would be most welcome. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Eric. 4 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I think 5 

## the inclusion of the low level condensing in the 6 

## analysis will illustrate the challenges faced in 7 

## marketing such a product, at a cost-effective price, 8 

## and it's worth doing for that reason alone. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 10 

## MR. ANDHARE: So the data, the price data 11 

## that we received from contractors and manufacturers, 12 

## as we can see, was quite skewed. We received most of 13 

## the prices for mechanical draft equipment, while very 14 

## low prices were received for the natural draft. 15 

## So it's important to mention here that DOE 16 

## requires to give us a singular set of results from 17 

## the engineering analysis, and when we received the 18 

## prices, they're distributed over a large range of 19 

## input capacities and over a large range of 20 

## efficiencies. So it's important to define a 21 

## representative input capacity for every equipment 22 

## class, and we chose -- we've identified forEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## small-sized boilers, for small-sized equipment class 2 

## as 800 kBTU per hour and for large size as 3,000. 3 

## These are based on the input ratings that 4 

## have the maximum number of shipments, annual 5 

## shipments. So these are the capacities and all the 6 

## results that are covered in this chapter, in the 7 

## engineering analysis chapter, are based on these 8 

## input ratings. 9 

## MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. I'm going to 10 

## leave here with my reputation as curmudgeon fully 11 

## consolidated. But it does seem to me that at some 12 

## point, there are very few customers interested in 13 

## buying input capacity. The level field for comparing 14 

## purchase options is output capacity, and it's with 15 

## the advent of very high efficiency equipment. 16 

## It seems to be about time to migrate to 17 

## looking at output capacities that are comparable 18 

## across classes rather than input capacities. Now I 19 

## don't know if we have to change the law to get there, 20 

## but I think that would be within the discretion of 21 

## the Department. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, thank you. Frank.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. STANONIK: I'm going to venture into 2 

## something I really don't know a lot about, and 3 

## probably something that our friends from the American 4 

## Boiler Manufacturers Association should be 5 

## addressing. 6 

## But I have a really strong suspicion that 7 

## when you're getting into this question of prices and 8 

## so on, that when I go from a large boiler that's like 9 

## three million BTUs, to the point where I'm talking 10 

## about, since this is unlimited capacity, since I 11 

## started talking about boilers that are in the tens of 12 

## -- potentially tens of millions of BTUs, I think 13 

## you're dealing with a whole different price 14 

## structure. 15 

## So I mean it's -- I don't have a good 16 

## sense of how significant this is, but I would just 17 

## caution that as you go through the analysis, that 18 

## there may be an upper limit on the large boiler 19 

## capacity, at which point you change price structures 20 

## just completely. 21 

## I mean, you know, people who as a matter 22 

## of -- companies as a matter of course that are makingEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### boilers, where perhaps their smallest model starts at 2 

### ten million and goes up from there, I think you're 3 

### dealing with a totally different price customer 4 

### situation vis-a-vis, as you said here, you know, the 5 

### most popular size seems to be three million BTUs. 6 

### Anyhow, just a little caution. 7 

### MR. ANDHARE: Okay, thank you. So now we 8 

### go on to the methodology, and based on the amount of 9 

### prices that we received for the different equipment 10 

### classes, we have classified the methodology into five 11 

### parts. The general approach caters to those 12 

### equipment classes for which we had sufficient pricing 13 

### information, and I'll be discussing about all these, you 14 

### know, one after the other. 15 

### So when we first look at the general 16 

### approach, there are six steps to be followed in this 17 

### approach. The first one is to -- we divided all the 18 

### products based on the equipment classes, all the 16 19 

### equipment classes, and then we identified the 20 

### efficiency levels that we required the intermediate 21 

### and max tech efficiency levels. 22 

### Then we pick the boilers at the representativeEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## input 2 

## capacity. So if for a small equipment class we have 3 

## 800 kBTU input capacity boilers at their respective 4 

## efficiency levels, we picked those directly. If 5 

## there aren't any of those boilers, then we use some 6 

## statistical and regression techniques to evaluate the 7 

## price at that capacity. 8 

## After that, we pick the boilers at the 9 

## baseline efficiency levels, and that determines our 10 

## baseline price. We use this price in the next step 11 

## to calculate the incremental price. So for example, 12 

## so we first divide the set into different 13 

## manufacturers, and then if, for example, for 14 

## Manufacturer A we have a boiler at 82 percent, which 15 

## has a price of -- which has some price, and we have a 16 

## baseline price, we subtract the baseline price from 17 

## that higher efficiency model. 18 

## We do this for all the manufacturers, and 19 

## then we average it out and we get the price 20 

## efficiency curve. This is the -- all this description 21 

## is given in the TSD chapter as well, and the results 22 

## are also in it.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## So that was for the classes for which we 2 

## had sufficient information. But there are some 3 

## classes for which we do not have sufficient 4 

## information, and these are the large gas mechanical 5 

## draft steam and large oil mechanical draft steam. So 6 

## these -- the prices for these were based on the 7 

## equipment classes for which we got the incremental 8 

## prices. 9 

## So for example, over here we have the 10 

## small gas prices, the incremental prices for the 11 

## small and large gas mechanical draft hot water. So 12 

## we took the ratio between the incremental prices and 13 

## averaged the ratio, and we used this average ratio to 14 

## calculate the incremental price for the large gas 15 

## mechanical draft steam. The small gas mechanical 16 

## draft steam was already obtained through our general 17 

## approach methodology. You had a question? 18 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Does that 19 

## scare you? 20 

## MR. ANDHARE: Well, we have to deal with 21 

## whatever prices we had, and we had to -- 22 

## MR. SACHS: It seems to me, and Mr.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## Stanonik's comment a minute or two ago, sort of 2 

## relates to my own sense. I suspect we're going down 3 

## orders of magnitude in numbers of products produced 4 

## per year, as we move from the 800 kBTU to the ten 5 

## million BTU product. 6 

## So we're doing something that looks 7 

## analogous to extrapolating from Cadillacs to the cost 8 

## of large excavators, of the class used for strip 9 

## mining coal. 10 

## I would personally be really scared, but 11 

## you've certainly looked at the data much more closely 12 

## than I have. I'm speaking from intuitions about 13 

## manufacturing processes. That stuff is custom 14 

## designed for specific applications. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Robert Glass, who is 16 

## joining us online, writes the comment that is similar 17 

## to Harvey's last comment. He says "To support Frank 18 

## Stanonik's comment, made to order units will be 19 

## priced higher, due to the engineering work necessary 20 

## to create this 'one of a kind model.'" Adam 21 

## Darlington. 22 

## MR. DARLINGTON: Adam with Navigant. JustEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## to reply or to clarify with Harvey, I mean so what 2 

## we're showing here is basically we're using the price 3 

## efficiency results from one comparison of small to 4 

## large, and looking at the change there, to go from 5 

## another comparison of small to large. It sounds like 6 

## your comment was more -- and so as we explained 7 

## earlier, the large is a three million BTU per hour 8 

## boiler. 9 

## It sounds like the issue that you're 10 

## taking is more that the ten million, that we need to 11 

## have some additional extension to these even larger 12 

## boilers, and look at those completely separately from 13 

## the three million BTU per hour boilers? 14 

## MR. SACHS: I am suggesting, and thank you 15 

## for that clarification. But I'm suggesting that I'm 16 

## extremely uncomfortable, without having the 17 

## calibration, the restraining input of knowing the 18 

## number of units per year at any given capacity class. 19 

## At this point, you are, for example, 20 

## assuming a linear regression in both the ones for 21 

## which we have data and the ones for which you don't 22 

## have data, and I suspect with those small numbers,Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## that we could find any number of fits that would come 2 

## close. 3 

## Now I may be wrong. I have not read this 4 

## piece of the TSD, but this just -- I think we need to 5 

## see a table of shipments by capacity for the industry 6 

## before we can have any confidence in this. 7 

## MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White with PHCC, 8 

## and certainly anecdotal. But in over 30 years as a 9 

## contractor, I've put in a lot of boilers, 800,000 10 

## BTUs, that type of size. Three million BTUs is 75 to 11 

## 80 horsepower, probably ten percent compared to the 12 

## other size. 13 

## So, and larger than that, the numbers get 14 

## even smaller. As referenced earlier, not really so 15 

## much with steam but certainly with hot water, the 16 

## trend is modular units to add more. So I think you 17 

## will find the numbers in those larger classes are 18 

## certainly going to be fewer, and they definitely are 19 

## made to order. 20 

## If you bought your car made to order, it 21 

## would cost a lot more than what you go buy off the 22 

## lot.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Thank you, Chuck. 2 

## That's helpful. Ashley. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley. I'm going 4 

## to clarify one point, and that's not to say that 5 

## obviously, you know, those who are on the phone or if 6 

## ABMA is on the phone participating. We welcome 7 

## feedback on our pricing, especially for the larger 8 

## sizes. As you know, it is hard to get pricing for 9 

## built-to-order products. There is some complexity 10 

## there. 11 

## Our cost model does, within itself, within 12 

## the pricing that we've done, does take into account 13 

## the volume differences for capacity. So if we're 14 

## analyzing discrete capacities small and large, there 15 

## is a volume price difference there and that is built 16 

## into what you're seeing. It's not linear like you're 17 

## saying. So there is some benefit there. 18 

## Now what Adam's saying is the large unit 19 

## we looked at is three million, and maybe that price 20 

## point is different than a ten million unit. We would 21 

## welcome feedback on that. 22 

## We would welcome manufacturers of largeEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## commercial, industrial boilers to work with us to 2 

## further refine our points. Happy to do that. Happy 3 

## to walk through that with them, and share with them 4 

## further about what we did. You too Harvey, if you 5 

## have data about a ten million -- 6 

## Like I said, this is our first. We want 7 

## to put it out for comment. That's the whole purpose 8 

## of this. 9 

## MR. SACHS: I tried real hard to get the 10 

## ten million unit for my house, but despite its leaky 11 

## walls, I just couldn't take the whole wall out and I 12 

## didn't have head room. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: I want to go back to Chuck. 14 

## Can you -- you talked about how much linearity would 15 

## affect the larger sizes and the numbers. Is there 16 

## kind of a discrete break point there at the high end, 17 

## where a lot of these units -- can you characterize 18 

## what's going on with the market? 19 

## MR. WHITE: I would say 10 to 15 years 20 

## ago, it was probably a million BTU boiler would be a 21 

## very good candidate for going modular. The industry 22 

## didn't have a lot of product with large capacity andEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## higher efficiency. But that has developed in the 2 

## last 10 to 15 years significantly. 3 

## So now there are products, high efficiency 4 

## products in the million BTU class that days ago were 5 

## not there. So it's a selling feature to a customer, 6 

## to tout the high efficiency abilities, and certainly 7 

## buying more than one multiple units adds labor and 8 

## adds product cost, but you can frequently demonstrate 9 

## the payback. 10 

## Kind of circling back a little bit to the 11 

## large steam boiler discussion there and your price 12 

## multiplier, your incremental difference, in large 13 

## boilers there's obviously a number of ways you can 14 

## manufacture them. But for years, it was square feet 15 

## of heating surface per horsepower, 500 square feet 16 

## per horsepower or I'm sorry, five square-foot, ten 17 

## square feet, what have you. 18 

## So higher efficiency means more square 19 

## feet of surface area, which adds pounds, pounds are 20 

## dollars. So my gut feeling is that 22,000 compared 21 

## to the baseline seems like a lot. But I really don't 22 

## have a way to quantify that.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Harvey Sachs. 2 

### MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs here. BSRIA [Building 3 

### Services Research and Information Association] has 4 

### every decade or so done cost comparisons, including 5 

### condensing boilers, various commercial sizes 6 

### internationally. It's one resource and another 7 

### resource that I would commend is the comments from 8 

### the transcripts of the negotiated rulemaking of 2013 9 

### on CCE, where a lot of the manufacturers of this 10 

### stuff were represented, and I suspect those 11 

### transcripts could be mined productively. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Frank Stanonik. 13 

### MR. STANONIK: No. 14 

### MR. BROOKMAN: No, not at this time? 15 

### Okay. Additional comments before we move on? 16 

### (No response.) 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: All right. 18 

### MR. ANDHARE: So next we move on to doing 19 

### the analysis for condensing small gas mechanical 20 

### draft hot water and large gas mechanical draft hot 21 

### water equipment classes. The reason why we separated 22 

### these is one, is that we didn't have -- DOE did notEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## have enough prices for the condensing boilers, and 2 

## the second is that the slope, the rate at which the 3 

## price increases for -- the incremental price 4 

## increases for the non-condensing levels is much lower 5 

## than what it is for the condensing levels. 6 

## So we took -- so for example, what we did 7 

## was we added an additional step in sort of 8 

## classifying it. Based on the companies or the 9 

## manufacturers, we added an additional step, where we 10 

## categorized it based on the materials used. So for 11 

## example, if we have A, B and C of the manufacturers 12 

## and 91, 92, 93 as the efficiency levels, we 13 

## classified it based on materials. 14 

## So materials, for example A and B 15 

## manufacturers produce boilers of Material 1, of type 16 

## Material 1, and the other one -- and C producers, 17 

## boilers of type Material 2. So we take the average 18 

## of the prices for Material 1 and similarly for 19 

## Material 2, and then we come down to the incremental 20 

## price. 21 

## So we subtract the price P2 minus P1, P3 22 

## minus P1, P4 minus P1, and take the average for eachEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### and all efficiency levels. This is the way we get 2 

### down to the prices for -- incremental prices for the 3 

### condensing small gas mechanical draft hot water and 4 

### large gas mechanical draft water equipment classes. 5 

### Similarly, we also use another approach 6 

### for the small oil mechanical draft and large oil 7 

### mechanical draft hot water equipment classes. Here 8 

### we took the slope ratio that we obtained for the 9 

### small-sized boilers, the small-sized equipment class 10 

### of the gas-fired equipment class. 11 

### So suppose this is the price efficiency curve 12 

### for the small gas-fired mechanical draft hot water 13 

### equipment class, then we take the slope of the 14 

### condensing efficiency levels and the slope of the 15 

### non-condensing efficiency levels. We take the 16 

### average and calculate the slope for the condensing 17 

### efficiency levels using the equation. 18 

### So we have to use all these techniques 19 

### mainly because we do not have enough prices, and we 20 

### welcome prices from manufacturing contractors for the 21 

### NOPR stage of the analysis. 22 

### For natural draft equipment classes again,Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### as I showed earlier, that only four percent of the 2 

### prices [we received] were for natural draft, and among the 3 

### prices we also received a price difference in converting a 4 

### boiler from a mechanical draft system to a natural 5 

### draft system. 6 

### So we have -- so we took that price 7 

### differential, which is based on the components that 8 

### are required for the mechanical draft assembly, like 9 

### the inducer, inducer fan assembly, the sensors, 10 

### etcetera, and subtracted it from the natural draft 11 

### assembly, that includes a vent damper and draft hood. 12 

### And we took the price differential and 13 

### subtracted it from the mechanical draft prices, and 14 

### this is the way we got the natural draft prices, and 15 

### then we calculated the incremental prices thereafter. 16 

### So these are the methodologies that we 17 

### used, and this slide and the next slide provides the 18 

### summary, just for future reference, and finally these 19 

### are the sample results that we obtained for our 20 

### analysis. 21 

### Here, I'm showing just two analysis, the 22 

### two equipment classes, that is the small gas-firedEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### mechanical draft hot water and the similar natural 2 

### draft hot water equipment class, and over here we can 3 

### see the charts. All this information is in the 4 

### Chapter 5 of the TSD, the engineering analysis chapter. 5 

### Now we have issues for comment. 6 

### DOE requests comment about the methodology 7 

### used to calculate incremental prices for increased 8 

### efficiency for each equipment class. DOE also 9 

### requests comment about the appropriateness of the 10 

### incremental prices reported as part of the 11 

### engineering analysis chapter, and also finally DOE 12 

### requests additional prices that are price-related 13 

### information, especially for natural draft boilers, 14 

### and that will further improve the analysis that you 15 

### already showed right now. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Frank. 17 

### MR. STANONIK: It's interesting that for 18 

### whatever reasons, you weren't able to get enough 19 

### prices on natural draft boilers. Having said that, 20 

### obviously AHRI cannot and will not provide 21 

### information on specific prices, because we just don't 22 

### try to collect that information.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## But having seen the analysis here, we will 2 

## certainly discuss with our members whether we can 3 

## provide, give some -- perhaps can provide some 4 

## comments on the, let's say the percentage change as 5 

## you go up in each level of efficiency, whether it 6 

## makes sense or doesn't make sense. 7 

## That's about the closest we can come to 8 

## really addressing issues regarding prices, because as 9 

## a trade association, that's really something we try 10 

## to avoid addressing directly. But as I say, I'm a 11 

## little surprised you didn't get enough information. 12 

## So we'll see if we can at least indirectly help 13 

## resolve that issue. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have comments on the 15 

## methodology, the first item? 16 

## (No response.) 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: No comments there. Joanna 18 

## Mauer, who is joining us via the web, asks a 19 

## question, and the question is "Did DOE try to look at 20 

## the incremental costs, as opposed to the incremental 21 

## prices?" 22 

## MR. ANDHARE: So we looked at theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## manufacturer's selling prices. We did not look at 2 

## the manufacturer costs. So I think the engineering 3 

## analysis is primarily for the manufacturer selling 4 

## prices, what comes out of the manufacturer's 5 

## assembly. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. And 7 

## you'll note, if you look at the issue for comment 8 

## box, the final item, "DOE requests additional 9 

## price-related information." Frank, I know you're 10 

## limited. Are there other sources that DOE may not 11 

## have uncovered yet? 12 

## (No response.) 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: At least not that we know 14 

## about. No? Harvey. 15 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I suggested 16 

## the BSRIA compendia is available for purchase. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 18 

## MR. SACHS: I don't assure the quality, 19 

## but it is a resource. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Yes 21 

## Frank? 22 

## MR. STANONIK: I went back and forth aboutEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## asking this question, and honestly trying not to be, 2 

## I guess, snide about it. But I'm curious. I mean 3 

## the Federal government operates many buildings across 4 

## the United States, and purchases lots of things, 5 

## including heating systems and boilers. 6 

## And again, I have no appreciation, I'm 7 

## sure, for the complexities of this. But I'm just 8 

## curious as to what extent information might be 9 

## available to DOE, you know, in terms of boilers that 10 

## the Federal government purchases, whether it's an 11 

## Army base or whether it's a Federal building or 12 

## whatever. 13 

## I just wonder if there's, you know, if 14 

## there's some way that that information is available, 15 

## or it's just, you know, or we're dealing with such a 16 

## complex system? I mean no question, the Federal 17 

## government is huge, right. It's just, you know, kind 18 

## of out of the question but that data, you just 19 

## couldn't find it. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 21 

## MR. ANDHARE: Well, I think the other 22 

## thing is that that will be a much lower subset of theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## number of equipment class that we have, because we 2 

## need prices for each equipment class, and the 3 

## majority of the prices that we found were 4 

## concentrated in a few equipment class, but not so 5 

## much in the rest of them. 6 

## MR. STANONIK: That -- Frank Stanonik, 7 

## AHRI. I appreciate that. But not just this 8 

## rulemaking, many of the rulemakings, and again, it's 9 

## not an easy thing. But you know, the analysis always 10 

## runs up against the difficulty of getting, you know, 11 

## what I would say is a real world price. 12 

## In other words, what the ultimate 13 

## contractor or installer who actually is selling and 14 

## will be installing the product to the final customer, 15 

## you know, what the actual cost of that was. These 16 

## analyses and again, this is, you know, you do what 17 

## you can and we understand that. 18 

## But these analyses come from one end of it 19 

## only, and usually don't have much data. Okay, so 20 

## what was the, you know, real price somebody paid for 21 

## this thing? 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We have a few questions andEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## comments from individuals on line. Jeff Kleiss 2 

## writes "Please clarify the size (input rate) of the 3 

## boilers for the plots on Slide 44." 4 

## MR. ANDHARE: So as you can see in the 5 

## table, the small size -- both of them are small-sized 6 

## equipment classes, and they range from 300 kBTU per 7 

## hour to 2,500 kBTU per hour, both of them. 8 

## MR. DARLINGTON: This is Adam. Both those 9 

## specific prices were obtained at 800,000 BTU per hour 10 

## representative -- 11 

## MR. ANDHARE: Yeah. So yeah. The 12 

## equipment class is for the entire thing. But the 13 

## results are for the 800 kBTU product. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. That's 15 

## helpful, and Geoffrey Holly or Halley, pardon me, has 16 

## a comment. Geoffrey, you're next. 17 

## MR. HALLEY: Okay, thank you. This is 18 

## Geoff Halley with ABMA. I've been listening from the 19 

## start of the meeting, at several times actually, but 20 

## quite rightly Frank and all the people have talked 21 

## about the ABMA sizes of boiler, and I think they're 22 

## in a separate grouping really, from the smallerEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## sizes, below two and a half million input. 2 

## I really fail to see how you can take a 3 

## three million BTU boiler and extrapolate up to what 4 

## could be an 80 million BTU boiler. You know, the 5 

## largest hot water boilers that I'm aware of through 6 

## ABMA are around 80 million input. Forty million is 7 

## not uncommon, and probably the highest volume is 8 

## around 12-1/2 million input. 9 

## I just don't understand the logic in 10 

## taking such a small thing and hoping to extrapolate 11 

## it all the way out, and then that includes not only 12 

## the cost of testing, the cost of installation and so 13 

## on, but the cost of maintenance that's used. 14 

## I mean it looks to me as though they're 15 

## using something very small, maybe residential a 16 

## little bit more in estimated maintenance numbers, and 17 

## when you've got to climb the ladder to do some of 18 

## these maintenance checks, you know, there's no 19 

## relationship. 20 

## ABMA's members typically are all 21 

## modulating burners. You know, there's very few of 22 

## them that are less -- well, they start at 2-1/2Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## million and go up basically, up to utility size. I 2 

## think there's got to be a cap at some point to make 3 

## it reasonable. 4 

## Another thing is in doing this engineering 5 

## analysis, where you look at the efficiency and the 6 

## life cycle cost paybacks, if you look at the 7 

## executive summary, they chart where they use a 8 

## standard lifetime of 24.8 years, irrespective of 9 

## efficiency. 10 

## Yet if you go to the background 11 

## information, if you like, in Table 8-F2.1, the 12 

## condensing boilers are listed as 10 to 50. It's in 13 

## the majority. There are -- I think there's one that 14 

## may say 20 years or something like that. But 15 

## certainly, there seems to be a different standard set 16 

## up between the executive summary and the data that 17 

## was available. I was wondering if somebody could 18 

## explain that to me. 19 

## MR. ANDHARE: So what was your -- 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Geoff, you want to repeat 21 

## the question please? 22 

## MR. HALLEY: Yeah. The difference betweenEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## the executive summary average life time and what was 2 

## available in the background information that was in 3 

## Table 8-F2.1, which is also lifetime data. 4 

## It's a three-page chart or table, more or 5 

## less, and in that was several references to 6 

## commercial boiler lifetime if they're condensing 7 

## boilers of 10 to 15 years, and yet use a 24.8 year in 8 

## the executive summary. Is there some specific reason 9 

## for doing that? It doesn't make sense to me. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead Adam. 11 

## MR. DARLINGTON: This is Adam, Geoff. So 12 

## the lifetime analyses that were done are part of the 13 

## LCC analysis, and we're actually going to get into 14 

## that, I guess, a little bit later on. 15 

## MR. HALLEY: Yes, sorry. I was having 16 

## trouble getting in on this conversation, so I 17 

## probably am loading more than I should have done 18 

## right now. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Well Geoff, since you've 20 

## joined us, can you describe a more effective way to 21 

## characterize these size differences and the scaling 22 

## that --Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. HALLEY: Well, I think they've got to 2 

## be, you know. People have talked to the boiler count 3 

## in these different sizes. They are pretty well all 4 

## custom engineered. They may be standard heat 5 

## exchangers, but then they take that standard heat 6 

## exchanger and install it in something that's custom 7 

## engineered for each job installation basically. 8 

## And so that there's going to be 9 

## differences from one to the next, you know. The ABMA 10 

## stance has been, you know, put a cap on the thing at 11 

## two and a half million input. I don't know whether 12 

## that's feasible with what's been said by Ashley and 13 

## people like that. 14 

## But I see a lot of problems with testing, 15 

## the expensive testing and it's -- you know, it's not 16 

## just the installation. It's the fuel flows, and if 17 

## you're going to add part-load testing as well, then 18 

## you're going to, you know, jack up the price of 19 

## testing significantly, because of the huge fuel flows 20 

## that we have. 21 

## So there was a lot of things to consider 22 

## once you get beyond this, what I call small boilers,Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## which are, you know, probably less than five million. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Geoff, maybe you -- 3 

## MR. HALLEY: There's a lot of things that 4 

## have been missed in this analysis, that I don't know 5 

## whether it's because you didn't get the information 6 

## or you ignored it basically. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well maybe you, 8 

## Geoff, or someone else joining us, either online or 9 

## here in the room could, in your written comments, 10 

## describe a more suitable way to characterize these 11 

## size differences. 12 

## MR. HALLEY: Right, yeah. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: It would be very, very 14 

## helpful if you could do that. We also have -- 15 

## MR. HALLEY: Well, I'll certainly do my 16 

## best, and I do intend to submit written comments. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Joanna 18 

## Mauer asks "In general, looking at the incremental 19 

## prices, we tend to overestimate the actual costs to 20 

## improve efficiency. Was it not feasible to look at 21 

## the costs rather than the prices?" 22 

## MR. HALLEY: Well you know --Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Geoff, I was going to -- I 2 

## directed that toward the presenter. 3 

## MR. HALLEY: Oh, okay. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 5 

## MR. ANDHARE: So -- 6 

## MR. DARLINGTON: I can take this. This is 7 

## Adam. So yeah. I mean so our traditional, I guess, 8 

## methodology is to look at the manufacturing costs, 9 

## for the reasons Joanna states. Looking at the price 10 

## is a little bit more conservative, because it does 11 

## include some markups which, you know, can change at 12 

## higher efficiency levels and things like that. 13 

## But to Joanna's question, it was a little 14 

## bit less feasible here. Boilers are very large and 15 

## expensive, difficult to purchase, tear down, 16 

## difficult to handle. So we went with the pricing 17 

## methodology. It was consistent with the methodology 18 

## that was used in the last boiler rulemaking, which 19 

## was also publicly vetted at that time. 20 

## No stakeholders really raised concern with 21 

## doing a pricing methodology then. So it was kind of 22 

## a previously vetted publicly vetted methodology, andEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### it was also a lot more feasible, in terms of, you 2 

### know, just gathering price information and coming up 3 

### with an average price rather than buying a bunch of 4 

### really big and expensive boilers. 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay. 6 

### MR. DARLINGTON: So that was sort of the 7 

### primary driver. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: I think that the presenters have 9 

### done a good job of describing the limitations, the 10 

### difficulty in trying to fully characterize these huge 11 

### differences in size and price. Okay. Final comments 12 

### on this section before we move on, because we're just 13 

### about due for a break. 14 

### So I think at this -- this would be an 15 

### appropriate time for a break. 16 

### MR. RABA: Yes. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: It's 10:30. Let's take a 18 

### 15-minute break. Those of you that are familiar with 19 

### the procedures here at the Department of Energy, 20 

### please wear your badge visible. The restrooms are on 21 

### both ends of the hall. There's a coffee shop down on 22 

### the ground floor, just about directly underneath us.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## Go to the elevators and go there and we'll resume at 2 

## 10:45. We've got a good start on the day, and we'll 3 

## proceed at 10:45 right here. 4 

## (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's resume. Please take 6 

## your seats. We're going to pick up where we left 7 

## off, and Markups, Energy Use Characterization, LCC 8 

## and Payback Period Analysis. 9 

## Markups, Energy Use Characterization and LCC 10 

## MS. SINGLA: Okay. So my name is Rupam 11 

## Singla from Lawrence Berkeley National Lab. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Get close to the 13 

## microphone. 14 

## MS. SINGLA: And today I'll be talking 15 

## about Markups, Energy Use Characterization and the 16 

## Life Cycle Cost Analysis. Later today, I will also 17 

## be presenting the Shipments and the National Impact 18 

## Analysis. 19 

## So the next step in the analysis is to 20 

## determine the markups, in order to determine the 21 

## consumer price, and we also characterized energy use. 22 

## We used those both as primary inputs into the lifeEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## cycle cost analysis. So DOE determined the cost to 2 

## the consumer of baseline equipment and the cost of 3 

## more efficient units under new energy conservation 4 

## standards. 5 

## DOE calculates such costs based on the 6 

## engineering analysis cost appropriate markups. 7 

## Markups are used in DOE's analysis to convert the 8 

## manufacturer's selling price to the consumer price. 9 

## The manufacturer's selling price is what Rohit talked 10 

## about earlier in the engineering analysis. 11 

## For wholesalers and contractors, DOE 12 

## developed a baseline markup and an incremental 13 

## markup. Baseline markups are applied to the baseline 14 

## manufacturer's selling price. They relate baseline 15 

## efficiency equipment manufacturer's selling price to 16 

## direct business costs. 17 

## Incremental markups are applied to the 18 

## incremental manufacturer's selling price. 19 

## Incremental markups relate to incremental change in 20 

## consumer price to the incremental change in 21 

## manufacturer's selling price under new energy 22 

## conservation standards. We make the distinctionEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## between baseline and incremental markups, in order to 2 

## account for cost, fixed costs that do not scale up, 3 

## such overhead and labor. 4 

## Both baseline and incremental markups are 5 

## calculated for each point in the distribution 6 

## channel. We'll talk more about distribution channels 7 

## in just a few moments. Markups were developed for 8 

## the following market participants: manufacturer, 9 

## wholesaler, mechanical contractor and general 10 

## contractor, and sales tax and markups were calculated 11 

## separately for each geographic region in the 12 

## analysis. 13 

## So this table lists the data sources for 14 

## the markups analysis. The distribution channels is 15 

## how the equipment moves from the manufacturer to the 16 

## purchaser. We developed distribution channels 17 

## separately for replacement and new construction 18 

## markets, and we developed these based on stakeholder 19 

## input. 20 

## The manufacturer markup was determined in 21 

## the engineering analysis, and is based on the U.S. 22 

## Security and Exchange Commission 10(k) reports fromEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## publicly owned commercial boiler manufacturing 2 

## companies. The wholesaler markup is based on firm 3 

## income statements from the Heating, Air Conditioning, 4 

## Refrigeration and Distributors International or HARDI 5 

## 2013 Profit Report. 6 

## The mechanical contractor markup is based 7 

## on the Air Conditioning Contractors of America or the 8 

## ACCA 2005 Financial Analysis Report, and the Plumbing 9 

## and HVAC Contractor sector from the 2007 Economic 10 

## Census. The general contractor markup is based on 11 

## the Commercial Building Construction sector in the 12 

## 2007 Economic Census. Sales tax is based on the 2014 13 

## Sales Tax Clearinghouse data. 14 

## So this slide presents the market 15 

## participants for each distribution channel 16 

## considered. So we considered separate distribution 17 

## channels for replacement and new construction market. 18 

## DOE considers an additional distribution channel 19 

## where the consumer buys directly from the 20 

## manufacturer through a national account, and you can 21 

## see the national account is present in both the 22 

## replacement and new construction markets.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## This table shows the results of the 2 

## markups analysis. For several of the product 3 

## classes, we show the average baseline and average 4 

## incremental markups. The markups are actually 5 

## distribution. This is just the average from the 6 

## results. So DOE requests several -- DOE has several 7 

## requests for comments related to the markups. 8 

## So DOE seeks comments about whether the 9 

## considered distribution channels are appropriate for 10 

## commercial boilers. DOE seeks comments about the 11 

## percentage of equipment being distributed through the 12 

## different distribution channels, and whether the 13 

## share of equipment through each channel varies, based 14 

## on equipment costs or equipment capacity. 15 

## DOE also requests comments about its 16 

## proposed approach to developing estimates of future 17 

## commercial package boiler retail prices. Finally, 18 

## DOE requests recent data to establish the markups in 19 

## commercial consumer price for the parties involved, 20 

## for the distribution of the equipment. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck. 22 

## MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White with PHCC.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## So a question relating to sales tax. Especially in 2 

## the larger products, some of the products in some 3 

## products would be tax-exempt if they're for 4 

## manufacturing purposes. Do you have any way to 5 

## recognize that, or is that something that's skewing 6 

## the data? 7 

## MS. SINGLA: We did not have any data on 8 

## that, and it was not considered. But we would 9 

## encourage you to submit a comment, and we can 10 

## consider it in the NOPR phase. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Do you know approximately 12 

## how -- is it many states that offer an exemption for 13 

## large manufacturers? 14 

## MR. WHITE: I don't know nationwide. I 15 

## live in Indiana. I know in Indiana it does, I know 16 

## in Michigan it does. Those are the two states I've 17 

## had that most previous work experience in. So that's 18 

## certainly something to be looked into. 19 

## Second question, when you talked about 20 

## national accounts -- I rescind my question. I've 21 

## answered it. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. YesEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## Frank. 2 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I 3 

## guess -- but I do have a question about national 4 

## accounts. What exactly are we talking about? I'm 5 

## not sure I understand what that is. 6 

## MS. SINGLA: Alex, would you mind stepping 7 

## to the microphone. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: The question is what -- 9 

## Frank's asking what national accounts is, what it 10 

## represents in the distribution channel. 11 

## MR. LEKOV: Our understanding is that for 12 

## some larger part is the manufacturer have a direct 13 

## way of basically allowing the equipment to be 14 

## purchased and we call this a national account. It's 15 

## small part of the market, and it's explained in the 16 

## technical support document. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I'm looking at these 18 

## comment boxes here. Additional thoughts on the 19 

## distribution channels, percentage of equipment being 20 

## distributed through different distribution channels, 21 

## and whether the share of equipment through each 22 

## channel varies based on equipment class or equipmentEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## capacity. What about that one? 2 

## MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. I have a 3 

## question then. Would this still be pegged to our 4 

## 800,000 and three million 800 MBH and 3,000 MBH 5 

## products, or are we -- that we talked about in 6 

## engineering. The large was typically based on the 7 

## three million. The small was -- 8 

## MS. SINGLA: Right. So we considered the 9 

## same representative capacities, yes. 10 

## MR. WHITE: Okay, because what makes me 11 

## wonder is up to a threshold, not necessarily 12 

## guaranteed, but commercial boilers, probably up to 13 

## that three million maybe four million, probably have 14 

## a lot of wholesaler presence. But anything in the 15 

## large over four million, the ten million we talked 16 

## about, the 25 million, is not going to come through a 17 

## wholesaler. It's going to come most likely through a 18 

## manufacturer's representative. 19 

## MS. SINGLA: So in our analysis, we 20 

## actually did assume that the smaller boilers go 21 

## through a wholesaler, and the larger boilers commonly 22 

## go through a manufacturer's representative.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### MR. WHITE: Okay. 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Do we have any new 3 

### information in response to Issue No. 7, Proposed 4 

### Approach to Developing Estimates for Future 5 

### Commercial Packaged Boiler Retail Prices? Anything 6 

### new on that horizon? No, okay. Chuck. 7 

### MR. WHITE: Well, this is Chuck White, 8 

### PHCC. I guess I would need a little more definition 9 

### about what's retail. In my world, I would think that 10 

### the contractor's selling price would be the retail 11 

### price that goes to the end user. But -- 12 

### MS. SINGLA: Yes, so we are considering 13 

### the retail prices, the consumer price. 14 

### MR. WHITE: Okay. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: So that would include 16 

### installation? 17 

### MS. SINGLA: Not including installation. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Not include installation. 19 

### Okay. Any new data available in any of this? As 20 

### usual, the Department is searching. Okay. Robert 21 

### Glass has a comment. Robert, we will unmute you and 22 

### hopefully we can hear you in the room.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. GLASS: Hello, can you hear me? 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we can. You sound 3 

## good. 4 

## MR. GLASS: Okay. Yeah, the comment I had 5 

## was basically that the -- really the wholesaler does 6 

## not really apply to commercial boilers, even in the 7 

## smaller sizes, because there are so many permutations 8 

## and combinations of controls and requirements between 9 

## low water cutoffs, high and low gas pressure 10 

## switches, manual reset versus auto reset high limits. 11 

## There's so many different things that 12 

## every particular installation or engineer, or 13 

## state has requirements for, that those are primarily 14 

## done through a manufacturer's representative, where 15 

## they buy -- and many of those are buy-sell rep, where 16 

## they actually go ahead and purchase the boilers from 17 

## the manufacturer, and then they sell to the 18 

## contractor engineer end user, at some price that's 19 

## reflective of the total work that they have done on 20 

## the project. 21 

## They are not necessarily just supplying 22 

## the boiler, but maybe providing many pieces ofEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## equipment and expertise in regards to the 2 

## installation and sizing of that equipment. So that 3 

## the price that is charged is not necessarily just the 4 

## price of the equipment. Also, the work that goes 5 

## into getting that and any additional time and effort 6 

## in that process. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. That's 8 

## helpful. Frank Myers also has a comment. Frank, we 9 

## will unmute your phone. Please proceed. 10 

## MR. MYERS: Yes, can you hear me? 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, you sound good. 12 

## MR. MYERS: Yes. I was just noting in a 13 

## previous slide, if I understood it correctly, you 14 

## were saying that the markup was that represented by 15 

## publicly traded companies, and if that's the case, 16 

## then that would not be reflective of the vast number 17 

## of smaller manufacturers, because the publicly traded 18 

## companies are generally higher volume and therefore 19 

## gain substantial economies of scale from the higher 20 

## volume. 21 

## So I would cautious about using that 22 

## across the board to reflect the markup for smallerEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### 1 

## manufacturers. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And Frank, if you have any 3 

## information you could supply to the Department in 4 

## writing, even under a non-disclosure agreement with 5 

## Navigant, then that would be very helpful. 6 

## MR. MYERS: All right, thank you. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay. So 8 

## additional comments. You see the comment boxes 9 

## listed there. Anything additional before I move on? 10 

## (No response.) 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 12 

## MS. SINGLA: All right. So we just 13 

## finished the determination of consumer price. Now 14 

## we're going to talk about energy use 15 

## characterization. So the annual energy consumption 16 

## of a boiler was calculated in order to assess the 17 

## energy savings as a result of increases in boiler 18 

## efficiency. 19 

## The annual energy consumption is the site 20 

## energy use of the boiler. The annual energy 21 

## consumption is the sum of the space heating fill 22 

## usage, the water heating fill usage and anyEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## electrical usage from auxiliary components. We'll go 2 

## through each of these components in detail. 3 

## So the energy use -- our energy use 4 

## analysis is based on boilers installed in real 5 

## buildings. The Energy Information Administration or 6 

## the EIA has a sample of commercial buildings, called 7 

## CBECS, and a sample of residential buildings called 8 

## RECS. These two building surveys serve as the 9 

## representative sample for our energy analysis. 10 

## In order to be in an energy analysis at 11 

## all, a building and other survey must satisfy three 12 

## criteria. The first is that it must have a boiler, 13 

## and the boiler must be used for either a main or 14 

## secondary source of heating in the building. 15 

## The second is that the heating fuel of the 16 

## boiler must either be natural gas or fuel oil, and 17 

## the third is that the reported space heating energy 18 

## usage of the building must be greater than zero. So 19 

## if a building in either our CBEC or REC survey 20 

## satisfies all three of these criteria, then it goes 21 

## into the flow chart. 22 

## The first thing that we look at is the ageEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## of the building. So if the building is old, then 2 

## there's a chance that the boiler installed in the 3 

## building will be a steam boiler. Otherwise, we 4 

## assume that the boiler is hot water. 5 

## So the top portion of the chart is for 6 

## steam boilers, and the lower portion of the chart is 7 

## for hot water boilers. It is the same methodology 8 

## for both heating mediums. 9 

## So once we consider the heating medium, 10 

## the next thing we look at is the boiler fuel type. 11 

## Whether the boiler is gas or oil comes directly from 12 

## the building survey, from CBEC surveys. Next, we 13 

## determine the draft type. So we assume a split 14 

## between mechanical and natural draft, based on ratios 15 

## in the AHRI database, the AHRI models directory. 16 

## Beyond that, we determine the -- based on 17 

## the input capacity of the boiler, we either put the 18 

## building into the large boiler equipment class or the 19 

## small boiler equipment class. 20 

## This flow chart gives an overview of how 21 

## the space heating fuel consumption is determined. So 22 

## we start with the energy use from the building sampleEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## that we just talked about. We assume an efficiency 2 

## for the existing boiler in that building. 3 

## We do this based on the year that the 4 

## building was built. So we studied the AHRI models 5 

## databases from 2007 to 2014, and we determined the 6 

## average efficiency by product class for each year 7 

## from 2007 to 2014. We looked at the trend in the 8 

## average efficiency, and we projected that backwards 9 

## to determine what the average efficiency has been 10 

## over time. 11 

## So then, based on the year that the 12 

## building was built, we were able to determine or able 13 

## to assume an efficiency of the existing boiler. We 14 

## also calculate some adjustment factors, or we apply 15 

## some adjustment factors based on EIA data. 16 

## One factor that we apply is to adjust for 17 

## the building shell. This is to account for the fact 18 

## that a building built in the year 2019 will have a 19 

## better shell efficiency, that is better insulation 20 

## and better windows than a currently existing 21 

## building. 22 

## We also adjust for heating degree days.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## So we take the heating degree days in 2003, which is 2 

## the year of the CBEC survey, and we normalize it to a 3 

## ten-year average heating degree days. This is to 4 

## make the fuel usage more representative over a longer 5 

## period of time. 6 

## So we combine the energy use from the CBEC 7 

## sample with the existing equipment efficiency and the 8 

## adjustment factors, and we get the building heating 9 

## load. Then for each considered efficiency level, 10 

## that is the proposed rated efficiency, we apply some 11 

## adjustments to it, which we'll talk about a little 12 

## bit later. 13 

## So we combine then the adjusted thermal 14 

## efficiency, the building heating load and the input 15 

## capacity of the boiler, in order to determine the 16 

## full-load burner operating hours. We then 17 

## combine the full-load burner thermal operating hours 18 

## with the input capacity, and we get the space heating 19 

## fuel usage. 20 

## So these are the equations in the space 21 

## heating fuel analysis. This is everything I just 22 

## went over. These are just the equations that we used.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## The thermal efficiency is the basis for our energy 2 

## use analysis. There are four equipment classes that 3 

## are by combustion efficiency rather than thermal 4 

## efficiency. 5 

## For these four equipment classes, we 6 

## studied the AHRI models directory and determined the 7 

## relationship between combustion and thermal 8 

## efficiency. So based on this relationship, for each 9 

## combustion efficiency we assumed a thermal 10 

## efficiency. 11 

## The efficiency at the considered 12 

## efficiency level is the rate of thermal efficiency. 13 

## The rate of thermal efficiency is what is determined 14 

## for the test procedure. The test procedure occurs in 15 

## a lab at 100 percent boiler input capacity, with a 16 

## boiler return water temperature anywhere between 35 17 

## and 80 degrees Fahrenheit, and a boiler supply water 18 

## temperature of 180 degrees. 19 

## The actual thermal efficiency experienced 20 

## in the field, experienced in actual boiler 21 

## installations varies with climate, with whether the 22 

## boiler modulates to meet low loads or cycles, andEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## with the system water temperature heats. 2 

## So boiler performance at different return 3 

## water temperatures and different loading conditions 4 

## was assessed based on manufacturer literature. In 5 

## this analysis, the annual average field thermal 6 

## efficiency for each climate zone in each boiler type, 7 

## that is condensing versus non-condensing, was 8 

## calculated. The average field thermal efficiency 9 

## accounts for all of these factors. 10 

## MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. Could 11 

## you restate those temperatures of the return water 12 

## and the leaving water? 13 

## MS. SINGLA: Yes. The return water 14 

## temperature has to be between 35 and 80 degrees, and 15 

## the leading water temperature is 180. 16 

## MR. WHITE: Thank you. 17 

## MS. SINGLA: So as I mentioned before, the 18 

## analysis also accounts for fuel consumed for water 19 

## heating. So we looked at the building surveys, CBECS 20 

## and RECS, and determined buildings that were part of 21 

## the same fuel type for both space heating and water 22 

## heating.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## We assume that in half of those buildings, 2 

## the boiler was used for water heating in addition to 3 

## space heating. We determined the water heating fuel 4 

## use as a function of the water heating load, and in 5 

## adjusted thermal efficiency. 6 

## We determined the water heating load as a 7 

## function of the fuel consumption from the building 8 

## survey, and an adjusted existing thermal efficiency. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We have a comment from 10 

## Robert Glass, or actually perhaps a question, which 11 

## is "You note the percentage of hot water versus steam 12 

## on Slide 54. What about mechanical draft versus 13 

## natural draft for both steam and hot water boilers? 14 

## What percentages does DOE estimate? This refers to 15 

## space-heating boilers. Does this rulemaking cover 16 

## process boilers that are not providing space 17 

## heating?" 18 

## MS. SINGLA: So to answer the second 19 

## question first, this rulemaking does not cover 20 

## process boilers that are not used for space heating. 21 

## All these boilers must be used for space heating. 22 

## The first question is the split between mechanicalEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## and natural draft is different for whether the boiler 2 

## is oil or gas and whether it's steam or hot water, 3 

## and those ratios are based on the AHRI models 4 

## directory. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 6 

## MS. SINGLA: So as I mentioned earlier, 7 

## the analysis also accounts for electricity 8 

## consumption of the boiler. DOE calculates 9 

## electricity consumption for the circulating pump, 10 

## draft inducer in the case of mechanical draft 11 

## equipment, and the igniter. 12 

## DOE calculates electricity use for all of 13 

## these components whenever the boiler burner is on, 14 

## either for space heating or water heating. For all 15 

## hours when the boiler burner is not on, DOE accounts 16 

## for standby power. Standby power is assumed for all 17 

## mechanical draft equipment, and not for natural draft 18 

## equipment. DOE also considers the electricity use of 19 

## a condensate pump for some condensing boilers. 20 

## So this chart shows the results of the 21 

## energy use analysis. This is four of the equipment 22 

## classes, each efficiency level. We have the annualEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## average fuel use and the annual average electricity 2 

## use. 3 

## DOE seeks comments on a number of issues 4 

## related to energy use characterization. The first is 5 

## DOE seeks data on representative annual profiles of 6 

## return water temperature, supply water temperature 7 

## and boiler percent loading. DOE seeks data on what 8 

## return water temperature boilers are tested at, under 9 

## the test conditions prescribed by the DOE test 10 

## procedure. 11 

## DOE seeks input on data sources that it 12 

## can use to characterize the variability and the 13 

## annual energy consumption for commercial boilers. 14 

## DOE is particularly interested in field monitoring 15 

## studies and data. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's pause with those, to 17 

## try and get comment on 9, 10 and 11. Do we have 18 

## anything here? 19 

## (No response.) 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: No, okay. 21 

## MS. SINGLA: DOE requests data about 22 

## typical boiler-sizing practices. How often areEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## multiple boilers installed instead of single boiler, 2 

## to meet the building heating load. How are the 3 

## number of boilers determined for a particular type of 4 

## installation? 5 

## DOE seeks input about how boilers are 6 

## controlled, particularly in multiple boiler 7 

## installations. DOE states historical 8 

## shipment-weighted commercial packaged boiler 9 

## efficiency data and shipments data by efficiency 10 

## bins. 11 

## DOE is primarily interested in data during 12 

## the last ten years to capture the impact of the most 13 

## current technologies on the boiler market. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: What about typical boiler15 

## sizing practices? We kind of touched on this 16 

## already. Harvey. 17 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. It 18 

## seems to me, without any particular expertise in the 19 

## area, that boiler sizing has two dimensions, and the 20 

## dimension that's of concern is how the field 21 

## oversizing of capacity affects efficiency in the 22 

## field application, and what the oversizing practicesEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## are in the field. 2 

## I don't think we've seen much on that. In 3 

## the old days, of course, a way over-sized one would 4 

## have way over-sized standby losses. We hope that's 5 

## under somewhat better control now, but nobody ever 6 

## called his contractor to complain that his boiler was 7 

## too large. So we expect substantial oversizing for 8 

## the actual peak draws that we would expect in the 9 

## facility. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Frank. 11 

## MR. STANONIK: A slightly different point, 12 

## and we certainly will try and see if we can provide 13 

## some information here. But I think that one of the 14 

## things, and maybe it's one that -- actually, I guess, 15 

## relates to maybe 13 also, but this goes back some 16 

## time. 17 

## But I was really surprised to learn that 18 

## for certain building types, it is not at all unusual 19 

## for the building to have a backup boiler, which at 20 

## least historically was really mostly there if in case 21 

## something would happen with the first boiler and that 22 

## particular building, as an example let's say it was aEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## large hotel, could not, you know, could not accept 2 

## that they didn't have heat. 3 

## So they would invest actually in having a 4 

## backup boiler, which again things have evolved here, 5 

## I think. But in the past, it was really there just 6 

## as a backup. So I think there is a really change 7 

## here that buildings do have multiple boilers. I 8 

## think more buildings, the progress, if you will, is 9 

## that now you have multiple boilers that are actually, 10 

## let's say, commonly controlled. 11 

## So in fact they're staging those boilers 12 

## or else alternating which one is let's say the master 13 

## boiler or whatever. But I think you still have that 14 

## situation where you have again, for certain building 15 

## types, there's a secondary boiler that is not 16 

## expected to do much except be there in case the first 17 

## boiler needs repair or fails. 18 

## I guess I would say you can't ignore it, 19 

## you know. Somebody has paid for that second boiler, 20 

## and isn't going to operate it very much. So it's 21 

## kind of -- you know again, to me that's hard to 22 

## understand. But I think you just need to look at theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## kind of building where that might be the requirement. 2 

## So in any case, I mean we'll -- we're going to try 3 

## and see if we can give you a better sense of how much 4 

## that goes on nowadays, because I think it does matter 5 

## when you're looking at the energy use of the boiler. 6 

## And then as -- I'll just jump to 14. We 7 

## certainly have had some preliminary discussions with 8 

## our members, and at this point I think we will be 9 

## able to give you some data of that nature. I'm not 10 

## sure of exactly the business that DOE would like, but 11 

## I think we can help with some of that information. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank, can you or Chuck, 13 

## can you address Issue 13, how boilers are controlled 14 

## in these multiple boiler -- 15 

## MR. SACHS: Can we get Chuck on the 16 

## oversizing first. 17 

## MR. WHITE: I'll weigh in on all of it for 18 

## you Harvey, just to be nice. This is Chuck White. 19 

## Starting with 12, the sizing practices. My favorite 20 

## phrase is it depends. Once upon a time you stood 21 

## across the street and held up your hand, and however 22 

## many fingers covered the house, that's how manyEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## sections you needed. Two, three, I can't see the 2 

## house anymore. I need a four-section boiler. Those 3 

## things are pretty much long gone. 4 

## MR. SACHS: That's a precise measurement 5 

## there. 6 

## MR. WHITE: Yeah, yeah. But I think most 7 

## contractors in the retrofit world are doing one of 8 

## two things. Most are doing heat loss calculations. 9 

## So you're determining the load of the house, but you 10 

## also have a concept called connected load, and I 11 

## don't have to lecture the room probably, but boilers 12 

## aren't furnaces. 13 

## Boilers and hot water and steam systems, 14 

## particularly steam systems, are a different animal in 15 

## how they operate and perform. So if we don't have 16 

## enough heat to meet the connected load, particularly 17 

## in steam, if we don't have the ability to fill the 18 

## system with steam, it's not going to heat 19 

## effectively. 20 

## So in retrofits especially, it gets to 21 

## looking into what the system is. Maybe I think I 22 

## have an 80,000 BTU heat load on the house. But if IEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## have 150,000 BTUs worth of radiators installed, it 2 

## may not heat properly. There's a lot of what ifs 3 

## connected with, particularly renovations and 4 

## retrofits in old systems. 5 

## In new installations, the engineering work 6 

## and the layout is certainly doable. But it's also 7 

## very important if you're going to use high efficiency 8 

## products, which we touched on with the return water 9 

## temperature discussion. If you want to be high 10 

## efficiency, you need lower return temperatures 11 

## generally speaking, to be operating in that effective 12 

## part of the curve. 13 

## So it's a comprehensive sizing problem, 14 

## and whether it's an engineer that does it or a 15 

## contractor that does it, how that happens, it takes 16 

## some skill and some thought and some ingenuity. 17 

## There are certainly people out there that, you know, 18 

## retrofit situation walk in and you've got a size ten 19 

## and you need a size ten. If you've got a size 12, 20 

## you need a size 12, whatever that might be. 21 

## But most contractors are looking at the 22 

## system as a whole. Particularly if you're moving toEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## high efficiency, it's very important to consider 2 

## those factors. Not to say there isn't oversizing 3 

## going on, and we can refine our mathematics to 4 

## multiple decimal points. But at the end of the day, 5 

## I'm going through a catalogue that has fixed sizes in 6 

## certain increments, and I'm going to pick something 7 

## that takes care of the load. 8 

## It's very nice to have modulating products 9 

## that can come down, fire-down to the load you need. 10 

## But that's not always the case. Moving to 13, 11 

## multiple boiler controls, there's a variety of ways 12 

## you can do that. 13 

## There's after-market products that you can 14 

## put in that will connect to existing multiple 15 

## boilers, give you staging and functions based on 16 

## outdoor temperature, you know, how many run, how much 17 

## run time, adjust the water temperature. There's lots 18 

## of products that will do that. 19 

## Many of the new products, new boiler 20 

## products communicate with each other. So you can use 21 

## multiple boilers and just connect them together with 22 

## a cable, and they will talk to each other and decideEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## who ran the most and who's at 100 percent, who needs 2 

## to be 50 percent and make these adjustments. 3 

## So there's a variety of ways you can 4 

## control multiple boiler installations. There's not a 5 

## one-size-fits-all answer here, unfortunately. Was 6 

## that helpful? 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Any 8 

## additional thoughts on these? Frank. 9 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Just 10 

## picking up on what Chuck just said there, I mean 11 

## again, I'm not sure this is doable or that even our 12 

## membership can, you know, can really help with this. 13 

## But on 13, I think, you know, it would be, 14 

## if we could find the information, it would be useful 15 

## to know today how many commercial boiler 16 

## installations actually include in the installation 17 

## essentially a system control panel, if you will, that 18 

## adds all this sophistication to controlling the 19 

## boilers and the system. 20 

## Because yeah, I mean I know our members 21 

## are out there selling those control packages, if you 22 

## will, as well as others as an after market, and itEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## certainly has, I think grown in its use. 2 

## MR. WHITE: Well, this is Chuck White 3 

## again. There is a large industry of building 4 

## management control that's set aside from the 5 

## contractor. The contractor may install new boilers, 6 

## do all the piping, do all of that. But then a 7 

## control contractor would be a separate person making 8 

## those connections, integrating it into a building 9 

## management program. 10 

## So there's from very simple to extremely 11 

## complex ways of doing this, and it's really a matter 12 

## of who's the customer and what are their needs, and 13 

## what are their abilities to underwrite this 14 

## undertaking. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. I guess 16 

## we don't have any historical shipment-weighted 17 

## commercial boiler efficiency data or shipment data by 18 

## efficiency bins at this point? Are you going to work 19 

## on that one, Frank? 20 

## MR. STANONIK: Yes. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay. 22 

## MS. SINGLA: A few additional comments.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## DOE requests -- 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey has a comment. 3 

## Sorry. 4 

## MR. SACHS: This Harvey. Just thinking 5 

## back on the conversation the last 10 or 15 minutes, 6 

## and the overlap in teasing outs between redundancy 7 

## and modularity, because I think we're seeing both in 8 

## the market, of people who need 100 percent backup and 9 

## are concerned about having a single large boiler, 10 

## without having a second large boiler, I've also 11 

## informally and anecdotally heard about lots of other 12 

## approaches. 13 

## One of them is to have ten small boilers 14 

## that together have 130 percent or 120 percent of the 15 

## peak load, so that if any one of them goes down, 16 

## you're still not in trouble. 17 

## Those can be, in some systems, dispatched 18 

## as a single unit with a single interface to BAS. So 19 

## it's getting to be a very complex world, and I do not 20 

## have any idea of how this is affecting shipments of 21 

## any particular capacity unit. 22 

## But I think it's important to understandEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## the market. In the redundant case that was brought 2 

## up very early, one could make a strong case for a 3 

## very inexpensive minimum efficiency secondary boiler 4 

## that's just never getting used. It's only there is 5 

## an insurance policy, and on the other hand, the 6 

## public policy implications of going down that path 7 

## and controlling it are just almost impossible to 8 

## manage. 9 

## So I think we need to be very careful with 10 

## understanding applications in this area. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck. 12 

## MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White again. I 13 

## meant to comment on that aspect as well. But 14 

## redundant boilers, certainly they're being put in, 15 

## but not as much as previously. The modular aspect, 16 

## you're exactly right Harvey. If I don't really need 17 

## 120 or 130 percent, if I put in four units that would 18 

## give me 100 percent, if one goes down I'm at 75 and 19 

## the time frame that you are design load is very, very 20 

## small. 21 

## So that 75 percent capacity will probably 22 

## carry 95 percent of the time, and in the currentEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## economic climate and conditions, people are very 2 

## attuned to not spending an additional 40-50 percent 3 

## of the heating project to have that redundancy, when 4 

## we could do it and be safe enough. 5 

## And regarding the buying one that's a low 6 

## efficiency product, that's probably not going to 7 

## happen. Most -- if you do buy redundant, most people 8 

## set up a schedule to rotate them, so that you don't 9 

## have one sitting there hoping it works some day, that 10 

## we're routinely switching them. 11 

## So if something's going to fail on one of 12 

## them, we'll find out and be able to fix it. It does 13 

## happen in retrofit-type operations. There's two 14 

## boilers there now. This one still works. We'll save 15 

## it as the backup, and then put in other products, 16 

## newer, higher efficient products. 17 

## But what typically I've seen is when 18 

## people do that, they like their new stuff so much 19 

## better, they don't rotate the other, and it sits. 20 

## You might as well tear it out when you started. But 21 

## the modular aspect really makes a big difference to 22 

## people, that I can give you 50, you know, steps ofEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## 20, 40 percent, to give you coverage for the majority 2 

## of the time. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 4 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again, and I 5 

## think it would be worthwhile for the Department, as 6 

## it's investigating the market, to get in touch with 7 

## the relevant ASHRAE technical committee and see what 8 

## design practices are (a), recommended and (b) what, 9 

## at least anecdotally, these people feel are most 10 

## commonly used in these larger systems. It may well 11 

## be that PHCC members have some good input onto that 12 

## as well. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Frank. 14 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I've 15 

## got a question, and again just because I've lost 16 

## track of it. You're still using 2003 CBECS data. 17 

## Isn't there something going on to develop an updated 18 

## database for CBECs, and will it be in time for this 19 

## analysis or too late? 20 

## MS. SINGLA: Yeah. So there's a CBECS 21 

## 2012 that hasn't been fully published yet. Hopefully 22 

## by the time the NOPR phase comes along, it will be.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## But I don't believe we have a publication date for 2 

## that. 3 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay. So let's say that -- 4 

## MS. SINGLA: So 2003 is the latest 5 

## version. 6 

## MR. STANONIK: Right. So let's say the 7 

## 2012 final appears magically in a few months here. 8 

## Will DOE be updating the analysis to use the new 9 

## data? 10 

## MS. SINGLA: As long as it comes in time, 11 

## then yes. 12 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's go to 15 and 14 

## 16. 15 

## MS. SINGLA: All right. So DOE requests 16 

## input about electricity use by commercial boilers. 17 

## That is in addition to the fuel energy use, and that 18 

## should be included in the energy use analysis. DOE 19 

## seeks input what fractions of hot water commercial 20 

## packaged boilers are used for both space heating and 21 

## water heating. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: While you're consideringEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## those requests for comment, Robert Glass has a 2 

## comment. Robert, we will unmute your phone. Please 3 

## go ahead. 4 

## MR. GLASS: Hello? 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, you're on. 6 

## MR. GLASS: Okay. Yeah. The first 7 

## comment, I think, had to do with a note that Harvey 8 

## Sachs had mentioned a little bit ago, talking about 9 

## the oversizing, and I think the one thing we need to 10 

## also take into consideration is that the sizing is 11 

## done based on the design conditions, and as a result 12 

## it could seem like that you have oversized systems, 13 

## unless you actually get to those design conditions. 14 

## I think that was mentioned at the end there. 15 

## And then another comment having to do with 16 

## the types of applications that would have redundant 17 

## equipment, and they were noted. I mean hospitals, 18 

## hotels, prisons, colleges. They all provide 19 

## redundant boilers that Frank Stanonik had talked 20 

## about. However, it may not be a 100 percent 21 

## redundancy, but enough to provide a limp-along 22 

## condition to be able to provide heat until issuesEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## could get resolved in other boilers. 2 

## So there is redundancy that is there. It 3 

## is very frequently used, but it is not necessarily a 4 

## 100 percent redundancy. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Geoff 6 

## Halley also has a comment. Geoff, we'll unmute you. 7 

## Go right ahead. Nothing yet. 8 

## (Pause.) 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Is he unmuted? Yes. 10 

## Geoff, we think we've unmuted you. Try it. Hmmm. 11 

## It's not working. Okay. Let's look again at Issue 12 

## 15 and 16, electricity use by commercial boilers in 13 

## addition, and what fractions of hot water commercial 14 

## packaged boilers are used for both space heating and 15 

## water heating. Frank. 16 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I 17 

## feel bad about this one, because I could have just 18 

## looked it up before I got here or last week. But I 19 

## think certainly when you're looking at the electrical 20 

## consumption and you noted that you do include the 21 

## circulating pump, the energy used by the circulating 22 

## pump, I think you absolutely need to look at whatEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### 1 

## again ASHRAE 90.1 specifies today for the 2 

## requirements for pumps used for hydronic heating 3 

## systems. 4 

## Because even though -- even though those, 5 

## at least mostly in theory this applies to new 6 

## buildings, those ASHRAE requirements, when you get 7 

## into things like system controls and what have you, 8 

## become more widespread, whether it's a new 9 

## installation or a changeout, if you will. 10 

## But I think I can dig that up and just, 11 

## you know, provide that in our comments. But I think 12 

## there has been significant progress in requiring or 13 

## specifying a more efficient mode of pumps for the 14 

## circulating pump. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: What about fractions for 16 

## hot water space heating and water heating? 17 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I 18 

## think we've answered that one in the framework. We 19 

## don't have any idea what that is. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck. 21 

## MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. I don't 22 

## really have any good answer for 16, but I canEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## certainly ask and see if we have any information 2 

## available through our members. 3 

## But picking up on what Frank said about 4 

## the pumps, does DOE consider -- are we talking about 5 

## the system pump or the boiler pump or both, 6 

## particularly high efficiency boilers like to use 7 

## primary/secondary arrangements. 8 

## So you have a small, smaller pump for the 9 

## boiler, and it circulates the water through the 10 

## boiler. You have a different pump that circulates 11 

## the system, and in a retrofit situation, you may have 12 

## had a system pump that also did the boiler. It was 13 

## one pump, but with the high efficiency adders, we now 14 

## add these other pumps. 15 

## So is that -- when we talk about that, are 16 

## we talking about the pump that pumps through the 17 

## boiler, or the pump that delivers to the entire 18 

## system. Also in some of these systems, you have 19 

## multiple system pumps. 20 

## You might have zone pumping where you 21 

## could have four, five, six circulators for different 22 

## wings of the building, and yet another boiler pumpEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## that's going to vary greatly, depending on the 2 

## installation. So when we talk about the pump power, 3 

## what are we talking about? 4 

## MS. SINGLA: So we are talking about the 5 

## system pump that pumps water to the building, and it 6 

## is a simplification. Right now we're assuming one 7 

## pump that pumps water to the building. We didn't -- 8 

## but we would appreciate any data that you have on 9 

## number of installations with multiple pumps or 10 

## different configurations, because right now it is 11 

## just a simplification of one pump for water. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey. 13 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Again, this 14 

## may get me in trouble, but as I'm thinking about 15 

## trends that I don't particularly get excited about, in 16 

## smaller unitary equipment, where the water source is 17 

## having a pump taking out of the rating. We know 18 

## there's always a pump associated with that system, 19 

## but we also know that it is generally a 20 

## field-selected or building design-selected pump. 21 

## And it seems to me that conceptually, 22 

## there is an important difference between the systemEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## pump for commercial boilers that is controlled, to 2 

## some extent, by 90.1, and any internal pump required 3 

## for doing that local recirc control, the temperature 4 

## drop at part load that Chuck I think is referring to, 5 

## the one before the so-called secondary loop. 6 

## So I think that y'all are going to have to 7 

## be real careful in defining what really is integral 8 

## to the boiler, as opposed to how to treat that which 9 

## is integral to the distribution of the heat transfer 10 

## fluid into the building itself. I don't have any 11 

## answers. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Chuck. 13 

## MR. WHITE: It's Chuck White again, and in 14 

## small boilers, it's probably provided with the 15 

## boiler, though it could very well be. But as the 16 

## systems get larger, those system circulating pumps 17 

## are diverse. I mean there's a wide variety of 18 

## selections, choices. Even for an individual three 19 

## million BTU boiler, I have lots of possible scenarios 20 

## of how I might pump it. 21 

## I can pick -- I can go to a catalogue and 22 

## pick a pump that will give me a certain flow ofEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## certain pressure. I could probably pick five of 2 

## them, and they will all have different operating 3 

## efficiencies. So I appreciate that this is a big 4 

## concern, and my background in my family business was 5 

## an engineering approach to everything and what can we 6 

## do to be the most efficient. 7 

## I know firsthand you can pick some pumps 8 

## that are very insulting to the electric bill. But 9 

## how you can make -- how you can pull that together to 10 

## get an average or a single case application, that's 11 

## going to be complicated, I think. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again, and with 14 

## respect to Question No. 16, on packaged boilers used 15 

## for both space heating and water heating, there's an 16 

## awful lot of activity that DOE's analysis will want 17 

## to at least be aware of. In 90.1 in the IGCC and 18 

## elsewhere, to limit applications of recirculating 19 

## loops, dead legs on recirculating systems because for 20 

## applications like schools and multi-store commercial, 21 

## there's a growing knowledge-base that we're pretty 22 

## inefficient when we just use recirculating loops ofEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## high temperature water, to mix it down for a few 2 

## gallons a day per lavatory. 3 

## So there may be an evolution away from 4 

## these predominantly hot water applications in some 5 

## types of office buildings. Early awareness of this 6 

## came from work by Hiller and Dinzey 20 years ago, 7 

## with the reduction in primary energy of 90 percent by 8 

## simply turning off the primary loop and substituting 9 

## a couple of tank resistance water heaters near the 10 

## lavatories. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Frank. 12 

## MR. STANONIK: Something that Chuck just 13 

## mentioned, Frank Stanonik, AHRI, and again, maybe I 14 

## think this will make things easier. But you know, on 15 

## this whole issue of the pump energy, again, well 16 

## first of all we're talking about a regulation that 17 

## would, at least on the schedule right now, would go 18 

## into effect the middle of 2019, all right. 19 

## And DOE has rulemakings going on to look 20 

## at the efficiency of commercial industrial pumps, I 21 

## believe. So I think in the analysis, and again I 22 

## don't know how the schedules mesh, but the analysisEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## might need to look to what extent the impact of a DOE 2 

## regulation on commercial industrial pumps might have 3 

## an effect on pumps being used with and supplied with 4 

## boilers, commercial boilers. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Robert Glass has a comment. 6 

## Robert, we think you're unmuted. 7 

## MR. GLASS: Okay. Yeah. The comment that 8 

## I had was in regards to the commercial boilers may or 9 

## may not be included with the boiler pump, because 10 

## manufacturers' reps or contractors generally have 11 

## their own pump manufacturer preferences, because 12 

## there are several that are out there, as well as 13 

## their particular choice of the type of pumps. 14 

## The manufacturer is generally providing 15 

## the flow and head requirements for each particular 16 

## boiler, and as long as a pump has been selected to 17 

## meet those requirements, the manufacturer is 18 

## generally fine, knowing that the boiler will be 19 

## operated properly as long as those flow and head 20 

## requirements are met. 21 

## So it's something we have to be very 22 

## careful about looking at trying to provide anyEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## requirements or taking this energy consumption into 2 

## place, because they are not necessarily provided by 3 

## the boiler manufacturer. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Do we 5 

## have final comments here? We're about to move on. 6 

## MS. SINGLA: Now that we have gone over 7 

## the energy-use characterization, we will next discuss 8 

## the life cycle cost or LCC analysis. DOE performed 9 

## an indepth life cycle cost analysis. In this 10 

## analysis, the economic impact of amended energy 11 

## standards on the individual consumer were studied. 12 

## The LCC is used to determine the total 13 

## consumer cost over the lifetime of the equipment. 14 

## The total consumer cost is the sum of the installed 15 

## cost and the annual operating costs, where the future 16 

## operating costs are discounted to the year of 17 

## purchase and summed over the lifetime of the 18 

## equipment. 19 

## The payback period measures the amount of 20 

## time it takes consumers to recover the purchase price 21 

## of more energy efficient equipment through reduced 22 

## operating costs. DOE developed a spreadsheet modelEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## which generated a Monte Carlo simulation to perform 2 

## the analysis. The analysis takes into account that 3 

## each commercial boiler installation is unique. It 4 

## calculates the LCC and payback period for a 5 

## representative sample of buildings. 6 

## This flow chart shows the inputs into the 7 

## life cycle cost and payback period analysis. The two 8 

## primary inputs into the analysis are the total 9 

## installed cost and the annual operating expenses. 10 

## The total installed cost is the sum of the consumer 11 

## price and installation costs. 12 

## We've already talked about the consumer 13 

## price and the markups and an engineering analysis. 14 

## We'll talk about installation costs in a few minutes. 15 

## The annual operating expenses are the sum of the 16 

## annual energy cost, annual repair costs and annual 17 

## maintenance costs. We'll talk about the maintenance 18 

## and repair costs a little while later today. 19 

## For annual energy costs, we've already 20 

## talked about the annual energy use of the boiler. 21 

## We'll talk about the cost of energy, energy prices a 22 

## little while later. So the annual operating expensesEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## are summed up over the lifetime of the boiler, the 2 

## applied discount rate and an energy price trend, and 3 

## we get the lifetime operating expenses. 4 

## We add the total lifetime operating 5 

## expenses to the total installed cost, in order to get 6 

## the total life cycle cost. All of these inputs vary 7 

## by installation and by geographic region, and many of 8 

## the inputs are not single point values but rather 9 

## distributions. 10 

## The installation cost represents the labor 11 

## and material cost necessary to install the boiler. 12 

## DOE calculated installation costs using 2013 RSMeans 13 

## mechanical-cost data, manufacturer literature and 14 

## information from experts. 15 

## The key components of the installation are 16 

## the basic installation costs, venting and condensate 17 

## removal for condensing boilers. The analysis 18 

## accounted for different installation costs for the 19 

## following considerations. Gas-fired versus oil-fired 20 

## boilers, natural draft versus mechanical draft, 21 

## condensing versus non-condensing, replacement 22 

## installations versus new construction installations,Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## and any specific venting requirements. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck. 3 

## MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. So in 4 

## your venting information, in the case of retrofits 5 

## with going to a PVC-vented high efficiency product, 6 

## leaving the quote-unquote orphaned water heater into 7 

## a vent, do you allow for vent kits or some means of 8 

## handling that water heater that's left behind? 9 

## MS. SINGLA: We do account for a fraction 10 

## of orphaned water heaters. I'll talk more about each 11 

## of these components, including venting, in just a few 12 

## minutes. 13 

## So the basic installation costs apply to 14 

## both replacement and new construction installations. 15 

## Common to both replacement and new construction 16 

## installations are the cost of placing and setting up 17 

## the boiler, connecting gas piping and connecting 18 

## water piping. Specifically for replacement 19 

## situations, we also have an additional cost for 20 

## removing the old boiler and disposing of it. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 22 

## MR. STANONIK: All right. So in a -- andEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## again, I appreciate we're talking about commercial 2 

## products and, you know, in a replacement situation, 3 

## it doesn't -- okay. So I have an existing 4 

## installation and my customer has decided they want to 5 

## upgrade to a condensing-design boiler. 6 

## It doesn't look like in that situation 7 

## you're considering that there might be additional 8 

## system costs to in fact, let's say renovate the 9 

## system, so that in fact it can accommodate a 10 

## condensing boiler and return the water at a low 11 

## enough temperature for the product to operate as a 12 

## condensing boiler. 13 

## I guess the question here is, I mean was 14 

## that a conscious decision to just ignore that, or am 15 

## I missing something? 16 

## MS. SINGLA: So in order to account for 17 

## this, we didn't actually have any data about the 18 

## downstream systems that would need to be 19 

## reconfigured. So instead, we assumed a fraction of 20 

## condensing boiler installations, a fraction of 21 

## replacement condensing boiler installations that are 22 

## installed -- where the water temperatures wouldn'tEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## actually be that low. So like the condensing boilers 2 

## that are operating at higher return water 3 

## temperatures. 4 

## MR. WHITE: Is that -- 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck. 6 

## MR. WHITE: Chuck White. Is that a 7 

## significant fraction, or is your fraction -- the 8 

## fraction is boilers installed would be condensing 9 

## versus non-condensing, because in retrofit 10 

## situations, I would hazard most of them are going to 11 

## be condensing boilers going in at a fair portion of 12 

## the time are going to be non-condensing. Maybe I've 13 

## jumbled up that question. 14 

## MS. SINGLA: So I don't have the exact 15 

## fractions, but for condensing boiler installations, 16 

## we did assume a fraction based on the year that the 17 

## building was built. So we actually assume that older 18 

## buildings have more likelihood of being run, 19 

## operating at non-condensing temperatures. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Myers has a question 21 

## or pardon me, a comment. "Life cycle costs does not 22 

## seem to include the accelerated replacement resultingEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## from selection of higher efficiency equipment." 2 

## MS. SINGLA: So we'll talk about lifetime 3 

## in just a few moments. But we do not assume -- 4 

## sorry, it's about the -- could you repeat it? 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Life cycle costs does 6 

## not seem to include the accelerated replacement 7 

## resulting from selection of higher efficiency 8 

## equipment. 9 

## MS. SINGLA: Great. So we do -- we'll 10 

## talk about repair rates in just a minute. But sorry 11 

## Alex, did you want to address that? 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Alex Lekov. 13 

## MR. LEKOV: I would say that the lifetime 14 

## is presented as a distribution of lifetimes. So 15 

## although not explicitly mentioned, this distribution 16 

## would to a certain extent account for this early 17 

## replacement that Frank is mentioning. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Oh okay, because it's a 19 

## distribution, yes. Okay. 20 

## MS. SINGLA: So all boilers that are 21 

## installed indoors need to be vented. Non-condensing 22 

## boilers exhaust high temperature flue gases, whichEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## heat the inside of a vent above the dew point, so 2 

## there is no condensation. If condensation does 3 

## occur, this could damage the vent or the boiler 4 

## itself. DOE assumes that in non-condensing 5 

## installations, Type B vents and stainless steel vents 6 

## are the most common venting materials used. DOE also 7 

## assumes that masonry chimneys are used in replacement 8 

## installations, but are uncommon in new construction. 9 

## More efficient, low-temperature condensing 10 

## boilers condense the water vapor, thus increasing 11 

## efficiency by rate and heat loss. The condensate is 12 

## fed to a drain. The flue must be able to withstand 13 

## the condensation. DOE assumes that certain types of 14 

## plastic and stainless steel are the most common 15 

## venting materials for condensing boilers. 16 

## DOE assumes that plastic is more common in 17 

## smaller vents, that is less than six inches in 18 

## diameter, and that stainless steel is more common in 19 

## larger vent installations. DOE determines the 20 

## relationship between vent diameter and input capacity 21 

## of the boiler, based on boiler manufacturer 22 

## literature and applies this to the vent-sizingEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## analysis. 2 

## Condensate removal is required for all 3 

## condensing boilers. The excess condensate from the 4 

## condensing boiler must be deposited to a drain. So 5 

## for all replacement and new construction 6 

## installations, we assume the cost of a condensate 7 

## pipe. 8 

## A condensate pump is sometimes required if 9 

## a drain is not near the boiler and the condensate has 10 

## to be pumped to a drain. So we that that condensate 11 

## pump is in about a quarter of all condensing boiler 12 

## installations. A condensate neutralizer, sometimes 13 

## the condensate needs to be neutralized before pouring 14 

## it down it down the drain. So we assume that this is 15 

## required in about an eighth of all condensing boiler 16 

## installations, and an additional electrical outlet. 17 

## We assume that half of the condensing 18 

## boiler installations that require a condensing pump 19 

## or a condensate pump also require an additional 20 

## electrical outlet. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Myers would like to 22 

## comment. Frank, we think you're unmuted.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### 1 

## MR. MYERS: Yes. This is Frank Myers. I 2 

## hate to go back. I was trying to get a moment in 3 

## when we were talking about condensating boilers or 4 

## higher efficiency boilers requiring system redesign, 5 

## and there was some comment that a certain percentage 6 

## of those in a variable might be something that's 7 

## considered in the analysis. 8 

## I think that's completely incorrect. 9 

## Boilers in commercial buildings are almost always 10 

## designed in by the engineer, and the water 11 

## temperatures out and the return water temperatures 12 

## back to the boiler are a part of that system design. 13 

## So if the current system is designed with 14 

## a traditional, for example, 180 out, 160 degree 15 

## return, then adding a condensing boiler to that 16 

## system does nothing. It won't condense. So if 17 

## you're looking at the cost to upgrade to a higher 18 

## efficiency product, then you're looking at a total 19 

## redesign of almost all boiler systems that were 20 

## previously set for non-condensing. So it's not a 21 

## small factor; it's a huge factor. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Frank.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. SACHS: Frank, this is Harvey, and as 2 

## I said earlier, I want to introduce into this a 3 

## review paper by Tom Durkin a decade or so from the 4 

## ASHRAE journal, in which we went through the process 5 

## and rationale for this kind of major retrofit of high 6 

## temperature boilers with low temperature condensing 7 

## systems. He broke out all of the system installation 8 

## costs. 9 

## Now those are a decade old now, but it 10 

## would seem to me that DOE is going to an enormous 11 

## amount of effort to interview manufacturers about the 12 

## costs of the boiler, and yet we're doing pretty high 13 

## level guesses on all the rest of it, instead of going 14 

## to the design engineers and asking them for their 15 

## experience with costing-out and bidding a whole bunch 16 

## of these actual jobs. 17 

## That would seem to be a very inexpensive 18 

## exercise, and if we have claims that these are very 19 

## significant system conversion expenses, as my buddy 20 

## Frank has suggested, I think it's incumbent on us to 21 

## get that into the analysis. 22 

## MR. MYERS: Harvey, I couldn't agree withEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## you more. Getting with the engineering community or 2 

## at the very least, I'm not familiar with the article 3 

## that you're speaking to. But someone in the 4 

## engineering community who has prepared what is 5 

## required to convert a system that is designed for 6 

## high return water temperature, utilizing a 7 

## non-condensing boiler into a system that will utilize 8 

## a condensing boiler and get any benefit whatsoever 9 

## from that condensing boiler. I think getting with 10 

## the engineering community is essential. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Frank. 12 

## MR. SACHS: Anecdotally, there's also an 13 

## awful lot of experience with this kind of 14 

## reengineering of schools in New England, where costs 15 

## became prohibitive to use non-condensing boilers. We 16 

## can start with the Vermont Energy Efficiency 17 

## Community, and there's pretty good case-study load up 18 

## there I'm pretty sure. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20 

## MS. SINGLA: So DOE requests comments on a 21 

## number of issues. DOE requests data on the fractions 22 

## of installations that would entail significantEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## additional installation expenses. DOE seeks input on 2 

## how often plastic versus stainless steel venting is 3 

## installed for condensing boilers. 4 

## DOE seeks input on how often boilers have 5 

## direct venting, for both condensing and 6 

## non-condensing boilers. DOE seeks input on the 7 

## fraction of stainless steel venting in existing 8 

## boiler installations by efficiency. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey. 10 

## MR. SACHS: Please let me respectfully 11 

## suggest that these are all questions that you really 12 

## need to seek out input from the engineering 13 

## community. For example on 24, you're asking for 14 

## input on the fraction of stainless venting in 15 

## existing boiler installations by efficiency. 16 

## I suspect that that and a number of these 17 

## other questions also have a component that deals with 18 

## capacity. I just -- I think you need -- if your 19 

## hypothesis is that the system costs, as opposed to 20 

## boiler costs are important, you need to talk to the 21 

## system designers and the contractors who bid on and 22 

## go out of business or make a profit, depending on theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## goodness of their bids. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Can we speculate on 21, the 3 

## fractions of installations that would entail 4 

## significant additional installation expense? 5 

## (Off mic comment.) 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Chuck or Frank. 7 

## MR. WHITE: Which ends up being me. Chuck 8 

## White. In particularly smaller projects, probably 9 

## there's a high percentage of people just change out 10 

## what's there, and to try to figure out a way to get 11 

## the system temperature down every day and provide 12 

## total heat quantity, that would be significant 13 

## expense and I doubt in many instances that it's done. 14 

## The other mitigating factor there is most 15 

## of these products, the higher efficiency products, 16 

## have outdoor reset capability. So as it gets colder, 17 

## we make the water hot; as it gets warmer, we make the 18 

## water cooler, try to match the water temperature to 19 

## the load. 20 

## So the trade-off is what percentage of the 21 

## time is it designed? We're not going to be very 22 

## efficient at that small percentage. The next stepEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## down at 90 percent of design, we're probably not very 2 

## efficient there. But at some point, our percentage 3 

## of design gets us to a point where we are in that 4 

## more efficient operation of that boiler. 5 

## So I don't have data on times that you go 6 

## to that significant additional expense, but I could 7 

## certainly kind of conjecture what that might be. 8 

## Your Issue 22, I would say probably the plastic vent 9 

## is going to be a larger percentage in the smaller 10 

## capacities. 11 

## When you get up in the million, two 12 

## million, four million, the larger high efficiency 13 

## ones, you're going to start seeing more stainless. 14 

## But in the smaller product, I think you're going to 15 

## see probably predominantly plastic for most of it. 16 

## How often they have direct venting, I 17 

## think most people are going to put products in that 18 

## are the condensing mode. Probably most of the time 19 

## they do make it direct venting, but I don't have any 20 

## data to back that up. 21 

## Direct vent, if no one understands, is you 22 

## have a combustion air pipe and an exhaust pipe. SoEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## we aren't taking room air, running it through the 2 

## combustion and ejecting it from the building. And I 3 

## have no idea on Item 24. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Frank. 5 

## MR. STANONIK: I think Harvey had 6 

## indicated that all of these are in some way related 7 

## to I think the capacity of the boiler. That's 8 

## absolutely right, and just using direct venting as in 9 

## No. 23 as an example, again this rulemaking, I mean 10 

## you're looking at, you know, fairly small boilers. 11 

## But you very quickly get into a situation 12 

## where again the boiler has been installed in a boiler 13 

## room. I mean you again, looking at all of the huge 14 

## range of buildings that get included in this category, 15 

## this grouping. 16 

## You know, you have let's say older 17 

## buildings, where in fact you had a boiler room, and 18 

## that room was, for whatever reasons, located some 19 

## place that in fact probably, rather than direct 20 

## venting, if you get a big enough boiler, you 21 

## literally have louvers on the wall to provide air 22 

## into the room.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## And so, you know, there is, I think in 2 

## each of these cases, probably some -- a better than 3 

## rule of thumb kind of indication that, you know, if 4 

## you're in the capacity range of this, then you 5 

## probably have this happening, and once you get above 6 

## there, it becomes very rare. 7 

## We will try and provide some information 8 

## on this from wherever our members can determine. But 9 

## like I said in all of these cases, I think it will be 10 

## useful for the analysis to perhaps focus on a certain 11 

## range of capacities, as to whether these issues apply 12 

## or don't, because again, to me there's no question. 13 

## Let's just say we're talking about boilers 14 

## only over ten million. You could probably forget 22, 15 

## you could probably forget 23, and forget 24. But in 16 

## the inverse way, they're probably, you know. Anyhow, 17 

## so I think that's point made. 18 

## MR. SACHS: Okay. I'd like to go back -- 19 

## this is Harvey again, and I'd like to go back to 20 

## Chuck's comments on No. 21, which basically is if I 21 

## design to load with a condensing boiler, there will 22 

## be design days when I'm likely to have to move up theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## temperature into the non-condensing range. 2 

## But how much time that is I think, and I'm 3 

## really stating this as a question I'm asking, will 4 

## depend on the oversizing in the boiler. If I've got 5 

## twice as large a boiler as I need, and have it pump 6 

## sized for that flow, I'll push a lot more 140 degree 7 

## water through there or 120 degree water through there 8 

## on the design day, and have to -- or the 120 degree 9 

## water, and have to move into the non-condensing mode 10 

## a smaller fraction of the time. 11 

## So actually having a sense of how 12 

## oversizing the impacts, oversizing practices impact 13 

## this question would seem to me to be important. Am I 14 

## totally off base? 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chuck. 16 

## MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 17 

## Oversizing certainly is a factor. It increases your 18 

## standby losses, etcetera. But the temperature, the 19 

## design temperature requirements drive the water 20 

## temperature, and that's based on your emitter 21 

## conditions. 22 

## So how many feet of baseboard do I have,Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## how many square feet of radiant floor, how big are 2 

## the heating coils in the fan coil unit I have, 3 

## whatever that might be. So the -- if I can't get the 4 

## BTUs out of that emitter at a given water 5 

## temperature, I will have to increase the water 6 

## temperature. 7 

## So if my boiler's not big enough to get 8 

## that temperature, if I don't have enough heat to 9 

## raise it up to that level that I need, then yes, I 10 

## need a larger boiler. But it's not strictly driven 11 

## as a function of my boiler is too big, and especially 12 

## if I have a modulating device, then I will get some 13 

## turndown out of that just naturally. 14 

## There was something else I was going to 15 

## respond to. You've thrown me off of it. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's move on to 25 and 26. 17 

## MS. SINGLA: DOE seeks input on where 18 

## buildings are typically located within different 19 

## types of buildings, and where the vents typically 20 

## terminate. DOE is interested is whether this changes 21 

## by geographic region or by boiler type. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Just pause there. Can weEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## -- yes, Chuck? 2 

## MR. WHITE: I thought of what I was going 3 

## to say. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 5 

## MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. Would 6 

## DOE consider creating a survey with some standard 7 

## questions, that you could send out to contractors, 8 

## engineers, manufacturers, for some of these kinds of 9 

## things that you're interested in, that we don't have 10 

## four or five or six industry groups out there asking 11 

## what we think you want to ask, that -- 12 

## And if that needs, you know, some refining 13 

## or some help crafting those questions, I'm certainly 14 

## volunteering Harvey to do it. 15 

## (Laughter.) 16 

## MR. WHITE: But that might get you better 17 

## answers and better information, more uniform 18 

## information. Just a suggestion. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 20 

## MR. SACHS: Well, this is Harvey -- 21 

## MR. GLASS: Robert Glass. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. GLASS: This is Robert Glass. I have 2 

## a question from the Issue 24, one that was talking 3 

## about the percentage or the fraction of stainless 4 

## venting used in existing boiler installations. One of 5 

## the things that I think DOE needs to be cognizant of 6 

## is that the same boiler installed in a Category 1 7 

## vent condition vertical vent, may be able to use the 8 

## vent-type venting materials. 9 

## But if the same boiler is installed with a 10 

## horizontal vent and it changes the category, then 11 

## stainless steel venting may be required there. So 12 

## either a rephrasing of the statement if it's relating 13 

## to condensing versus non-condensing or just 14 

## condensing products, DOE needs to be aware that 15 

## standard installations may still be using stainless 16 

## steel because of the categorization of the vent under 17 

## that type of installation. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Harvey. 19 

## MR. SACHS: Not getting too far into the 20 

## weeds, if DOE is thinking survey, I think it has to 21 

## start with interviews, to find out what the 22 

## significant questions are.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We're back to 25, 2 

## input on where boilers are typically located. We 3 

## started to cover this, and does it change based on 4 

## geographic region or boiler type? We've kind of 5 

## touched on this a little bit. Chuck. 6 

## MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. It's 7 

## going to be all over the place, depending on some 8 

## places may have basements, some places may have 9 

## particular boiler rooms. There may be small 10 

## equipment rooms. I know of some hotel properties 11 

## that put them on every floor, so you have a high 12 

## efficiency boiler servicing each floor, kind of a 13 

## retrofit arrangement that somebody did, but that 14 

## worked for what they were doing. 15 

## They could be at remote boiler rooms. 16 

## They could vent through sidewalls, they could vent 17 

## through roofs. They could go up masonry chimneys, 18 

## stainless e-vent depending on the particular product. 19 

## So this is -- I don't know that there is a typical 20 

## for this. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: You couldn't say for a 22 

## certain building type with a certain vintage and aEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## certain region, that this would be a typical sort of 2 

## a -- 3 

## MR. WHITE: I would say probably for a 4 

## hospital. Typically, there's going to be a 5 

## powerhouse, and it's going to be a remote building. 6 

## For a hotel, it's typically going to be a basement or 7 

## an equipment room. It could be a penthouse. 8 

## Offices, apartment buildings could be 9 

## similar, either a penthouse type arrangement or a 10 

## basement or equipment rooms located on the utility 11 

## side of the building, not at the, you know, next to 12 

## the front door. But it's one of the versatilities of 13 

## hot water heat or steam, you're passing the product 14 

## around in a relatively small pipe. 15 

## So I don't need large duct chases. I 16 

## don't need to dedicate specific areas. So you can 17 

## move that around to fit the floor plan as a client 18 

## dictates or wants out of their facility. Everybody 19 

## wants to maximum rentable space or productive space. 20 

## So these things tend to be relegated to not front and 21 

## center. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 26.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MS. SINGLA: All right. DOE seeks data on 2 

## how often common venting occurs in multiple boiler 3 

## installations, and whether commercial water heaters 4 

## are commonly vented with commercial boilers. 5 

## MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Are you 6 

## able to hear me? 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We hear you, Frank. 8 

## MR. MYERS: Oh thank you. Common venting 9 

## is a very sensitive issue. Most, but not all 10 

## condensing boilers today vent individually. There 11 

## are some that at the boiler, they might have 12 

## multiples that they have worked with their 13 

## certification agency to come up with a multiple 14 

## venting arrangement. 15 

## But if I were in -- and I have looked at a 16 

## number of condensing boilers in the marketplace, and 17 

## the most common is a single vent for each boiler. So 18 

## if you had three boilers, you'd have three vents. If 19 

## it's non-condensing equipment, they are most commonly 20 

## vented together. 21 

## There is a number -- there are a number of 22 

## projects going on right now, looking at what isEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## required to common-vent condensing boilers, what 2 

## safety certification might be required to do that, 3 

## and there may well be some research that is required, 4 

## in order to be able to finalize that. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 6 

## MR. MYERS: The second item there are 7 

## water heaters commonly vented with commercial 8 

## boilers, in the non-condensing area of commercial 9 

## buildings, yes they are frequently vented together. 10 

## But again, if they're condensing boilers and 11 

## condensing water heaters, not 100 percent but most of 12 

## them are separately vented. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. And of 14 

## course for anybody on the call or here in the room, 15 

## the Department would really appreciate these comments 16 

## in writing. Any additional thoughts on Issue 26? 17 

## Frank. 18 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I 19 

## think, and again, as we talked about it in the 20 

## preceding slide, even this issue of commonly vented 21 

## commercial water heaters and commercial boilers, 22 

## there's probably a boiler capacity, boiler size issueEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## that you've quickly moved from it something being 2 

## usual to something being very rare. 3 

## Again, you know, I'm envisioning -- you 4 

## have a very, very large boiler, and the building's 5 

## hot water needs may not be anywhere near what its 6 

## heating needs are, and all of the sudden, the concept 7 

## of common venting becomes more than problematic, 8 

## because your common vent size would be potentially so 9 

## large that when the boiler wasn't firing, you're 10 

## going run into a vent problem on the water heater, 11 

## and you know, it's a non-heating season or something. 12 

## So again, I think there's a capacity 13 

## component that again, you go from okay, this happens 14 

## to well, usually not. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I'm looking ahead in 16 

## the slides that are forward from here, and there are 17 

## four or five different segments to be discussed for 18 

## LCC and payback trade analyses. So I'm going to 19 

## suggest we take a break now for lunch. It's 12:25. 20 

## We've made a lot of progress here. We still have a 21 

## fair amount of rather detailed content to cover. 22 

## So I want to make sure we're fresh to doEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## that. 12:25. We'll break for an hour for lunch. I 2 

## think most of you are familiar with the Forrestal 3 

## Building. Please wear a badge visible. This room 4 

## will be watched. It will be secured. You can leave 5 

## your stuff here, and if you go to the big cafeteria, 6 

## to run back through the security portal you might 7 

## need a picture ID. 8 

## There's also a Subway shop down on the 9 

## ground floor, near the coffee shop down there. So 10 

## see you back here at -- to start at 1:25. Harvey. 11 

## MR. SACHS: Would it be out of line to ask 12 

## -- [not audible] 13 

## (Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., a luncheon 14 

## recess was taken.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 

## 1:33 p.m. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Sorry for the slight 4 

## delay starting up. We had a little bit of technical 5 

## difficulty and now we're back, and picking up on 6 

## Slide 72, I believe. 7 

## MS. SINGLA: So next we'll talk about the 8 

## maintenance and repair costs, which are part of the 9 

## annual operating costs that are accounted for in the 10 

## life-cycle cost analysis. The maintenance cost is 11 

## the routine cost to the consumer of maintaining the 12 

## equipment. The maintenance frequency assumed is 13 

## based on RSMeans and CBECS and RECS samples. 14 

## DOE assumes that all oil-fired boilers are 15 

## maintained on a regular basis, and are maintained per 16 

## the frequency specified in RSMeans. DOE assumes that 17 

## gas-fired hot water boilers may or may not be 18 

## maintained regularly. 19 

## The CBECS and RECS survey actually 20 

## indicate whether the owner reports that they maintain 21 

## their boiler -- or whether they maintain their 22 

## equipment regularly or not. If the owner indicatesEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## that they maintain their equipment regularly, then 2 

## DOE assumes that the gas-fired hot water boiler will 3 

## be maintained at the frequency as specified in 4 

## RSMeans. If the owner indicates that they do not 5 

## maintain their equipment regularly, then DOE assumes 6 

## that the maintenance occurs one-third as frequently 7 

## as specified in RSMeans. 8 

## The labor hours and costs are based on the 9 

## 2013 RSMeans facility maintenance and repair data 10 

## book. This includes separate labor costs for steam 11 

## boilers versus hot water boilers, and for small 12 

## boilers versus large boilers. 13 

## The material costs are also based on 14 

## RSMeans, and we include an additional common state 15 

## neutralizer cost for condensing boilers. We assume 16 

## that the maintenance is the same across all 17 

## efficiency levels, other than the condensate neutral 18 

## costs and across all equipment classes. 19 

## The repair cost is the cost to the 20 

## consumer of replacing or repairing components in a 21 

## boiler that has failed. The labor hours and costs 22 

## are based on the 2013 RSMeans data book, and materialEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## costs are based on RSMeans, as well as the 2 

## engineering analysis. The component failure rate is 3 

## given in this chart on the slide. We have a mean 4 

## failure year. We assume a Weibull distribution for 5 

## the component lifetimes, for each component lifetime. 6 

## The mean year is what is written in the slide. So we 7 

## have mean year -- mean failure year and the repair 8 

## rate. 9 

## Also, the analysis assumes that all 10 

## boilers have a one year warranty on parts and labor, 11 

## and a ten year warranty on the heat exchanger. So 12 

## DOE has a number of comments or a number of requests 13 

## in relationship to maintenance and repair. 14 

## So DOE requests comments on frequency and 15 

## cost of maintenance, major repair issues, repair 16 

## frequency and repair costs for commercial boilers 17 

## that meet the minimum energy efficiency standard, as 18 

## well as for higher efficiency boilers. 19 

## DOE seeks input on how often boiler 20 

## maintenance is performed by on-site maintenance staff 21 

## versus external contractors, specifically for hot 22 

## water boilers, resisting boilers and small boilersEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### versus large boilers. DOE seeks input as to how 2 

### often, in the event of a heat exchanger failure, the 3 

### heat exchanger alone is replaced, versus the entire 4 

### boiler being replaced. 5 

### DOE is interested in knowing whether this 6 

### varies with equipment costs or varies with condensing 7 

### versus non-condensing. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Frequency and cost of 9 

### maintenance. Let's start there. Chuck. 10 

### MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. While I 11 

### cannot comment on costs, but certainly the steam 12 

### boiler annual maintenance is on target. Larger hot 13 

### water boilers probably do have annual service, 14 

### probably not as much as steam but more than minimal. 15 

### I think most of them are going to have some annual 16 

### service to them. I can't comment on the cost issue. The 17 

### on-site versus the external contractors -- 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Before you move on, is 19 

### there a difference between minimum efficiency boilers 20 

### and higher efficiency boilers? 21 

### MR. WHITE: I don't really think so, 22 

### particularly in steam. No matter what -- I'm notEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## exactly sure what a high efficiency steam boiler is 2 

## anyway, but oh, I probably shouldn't have said that 3 

## out loud. But compared to high efficiency water, 4 

## hard to be really high efficiency in steam. But I 5 

## think they're both going to have service pretty 6 

## routinely. On site, external, that's going to be a 7 

## function of the -- really the facility it's in, if 8 

## they have competent people to do that kind of stuff. 9 

## So like hospitals and larger apartment 10 

## buildings, things like that probably are going to do 11 

## on-site, unless it's repair of specific problems. I 12 

## mean if it's routine maintenance, typical stuff 13 

## probably, the on-site staff's going to do a lot of the 14 

## typical. But -- 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Would that correlate more 16 

## with the size of the boiler? 17 

## MR. WHITE: Yes the large -- especially 18 

## the larger is probably going to be more external. 19 

## But not every time, and the heat exchanger failure, 20 

## that's really -- that really is directly related to 21 

## maintenance, particularly in steam boilers. But if 22 

## you're not maintaining steam boilers, you're probablyEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## going to be breaking sections or tubes or what have 2 

## you. 3 

## Whether you change the heat exchanger or 4 

## whether you change the boiler, bigger boilers you're 5 

## probably going to repair, change parts; smaller 6 

## boilers, you'll probably change the unit. But not 7 

## 100 percent either way. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good. Thank you. 9 

## Additional thoughts on these questions? Okay. 10 

## MS. SINGLA: Another key input into the 11 

## life cycle cost analysis is the boiler lifetime. DOE 12 

## defines lifetime is the age when the commercial 13 

## boiler is retired from service. DOE assumes that the 14 

## lifetime of a boiler is the same at different 15 

## efficiency levels, and the same across all equipment 16 

## classes. 17 

## DOE assumes a medium lifetime of 24.8 18 

## years, based on its literature review of boiler 19 

## lifetimes. DOE uses a Weibull distribution, the one 20 

## pictured here on the slide, to represent the boiler 21 

## lifetime. In order to derive the parameters for 22 

## defining this distribution, we derived some of theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## parameters from the literature review, and derived 2 

## some from parameters typical of appliances. 3 

## You can see all of the sources found on 4 

## the literature review, as well as details on the 5 

## methodology in Appendix 8-F. So we're also 6 

## requesting comments on lifetime. So specifically, 7 

## DOE requests comments about the methodology used to 8 

## determine equipment lifetimes for commercial boilers, 9 

## and DOE seeks data that projects boiler lifetime, 10 

## particularly for non-condensing versus condensing 11 

## boilers. 12 

## MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. The 24.8 13 

## is kind of an unofficial industry mantra is boilers 14 

## in 25-year kind of devices. I don't really have a 15 

## way to weigh in on the condensing versus the 16 

## non-condensing. One of the condensing technologies, 17 

## the current condensing technology is 25 years is kind 18 

## of a stretch for some of those products. So I don't 19 

## -- I really don't have an opinion on how to quantify 20 

## that aspect. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Frank. 22 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. In aEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## lot of those lines, and we've voiced this concern 2 

## before, the -- I mean the fact is that the use of 3 

## condensing technology in boilers, even on the 4 

## commercial side, really hasn't been enough of a field 5 

## experience to -- I'll say to apply, let's say, the 6 

## same technique that you might do for non-condensing 7 

## boilers, because we're probably -- 8 

## If mean if you were to say okay, they have 9 

## an average life of 25 years, in fact 25 years ago 10 

## there were very, very few condensing boilers being 11 

## installed. So we just don't really have the field 12 

## experience at this point, I think, to substantiate 13 

## that the typical lifetime of a non-condensing boiler 14 

## necessarily translates directly to condensing 15 

## designs. 16 

## And so I think just it needs to -- and 17 

## again, I don't know that we can get our hands on any 18 

## data from the field that might show something. But 19 

## it just needs to kind of be recognized that, you 20 

## know, if you looked at -- we really just don't have 21 

## the field experience to have a good fix on it okay, is 22 

## it different.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Frank Myers, please 2 

## unmute your phone. Let's hear from you. 3 

## MR. MYERS: Okay. Can you hear me now? 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes. 5 

## MR. MYERS: Thank you. On the lifetime of 6 

## equipment, that's usually determined by two factors. 7 

## One is payback for replacement of equipment due to 8 

## higher efficiency, and the other is when the cost of 9 

## maintenance is seen by the owner as exceeding the 10 

## benefit of maintaining the old equipment. Would they 11 

## rather spend the money to repair or to replace? 12 

## So and to 28, Frank Stanonik is correct. 13 

## We don't have long years of history to make a 14 

## definitive statement about whether or not the 15 

## traditional lifetime of boiler applies to 16 

## non-condensing. 17 

## But early evidence is that the products 18 

## are more sophisticated, have to deal with corrosive 19 

## condensate and as a result tend to have shorter lives 20 

## than the non-condensing counterpart that they might 21 

## be replacing, assuming the design of the building can 22 

## accept and utilize such a replacement.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Hmm, okay. Thank you. 2 

## Geoff Halley, please, your turn. 3 

## MR. HALLEY: Yes. I think that the 24.8, 4 

## 25 years is a good number for conventional boilers. 5 

## A lot of it depends on the actual maintenance that's 6 

## done on the thing, the day-to-day operational chores, 7 

## if you like, that the operators have to go through, 8 

## like blowing water down on steam boilers, so on so 9 

## forth. 10 

## But I think a better number for 11 

## conventional boilers is probably around 15 years, you 12 

## know. Like Frank Myers has just said, it looks as 13 

## though it could be shorter. I've not actually heard 14 

## comments from manufacturers of convention boilers, 15 

## but customers are going to be a little bit upset or a 16 

## lot upset, you know, 15 years down the road from when 17 

## they buy it and they find out that it's not going to 18 

## last as long as a conventional boiler. 19 

## So I think that possibly we ought to be 20 

## delineating between condensing boilers and DOE, 21 

## rather than having across the board 25 years. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PPI 2 

## Industries again. Going back, I think it's one 3 

## slide, talked about the maintenance costs and 4 

## frequency of repair for condensing versus 5 

## non-condensing, and also the issue of self-service 6 

## versus external service. 7 

## This is another area where a well-worded 8 

## survey form could be either physically applied by 9 

## calling and asking for answers to questions, or sent 10 

## out to boiler service companies. They do this every 11 

## day, and would be able to give you answers to both 12 

## the cost frequency and even help answer some of the 13 

## questions about the frequency differences between 14 

## non-condensing and condensing equipment. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Frank. 16 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I'm 17 

## certainly very naive about these issues. But one of 18 

## the things we have discussed is that there are 19 

## multiple materials used in the heat exchangers of 20 

## these devices, including copper, cast iron, steel and 21 

## on the condensing side stainless steel. 22 

## So it would seem that the issue of theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## heat exchanger material is likely to be as relevant 2 

## as the issue of the condensing versus non-condensing, 3 

## and if you're going to go to the trouble of doing 4 

## this sort of survey, which we'd certainly support, we 5 

## need to make sure covering the variables and have a 6 

## reasonable chance of making a difference. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks. 8 

## MR. SACHS: I personally have long-favored 9 

## the use of unobtanium in the primary heat exchanger. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Now we are moving on. 11 

## MS. SINGLA: Average monthly energy prices 12 

## were determined for CBECS and RECS regions based on 13 

## EIA data. 2012 annual electricity prices were 14 

## derived from EIA Form 826 data, which includes 15 

## energy prices by State. Data for natural gas prices 16 

## were determined from the EIA's natural gas navigator, 17 

## which includes natural gas prices by State. 18 

## 2012 average fuel oil prices were 19 

## collected from EIA's state energy consumption price 20 

## and expenditure estimates, which includes fuel oil 21 

## prices by State. For areas with more than one State, 22 

## the analysis weighs each State's average price by itsEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### number of commercial buildings and households. 2 

### Marginal prices from a consumer 3 

### perspective are those prices that consumers pay or 4 

### save for their last unit of energy used or saved. 5 

### For utilities, marginal energy costs are the costs 6 

### experienced by utilities for the last kilo[watt]/hour of 7 

### energy produced. 8 

### A utility's marginal cost can be either 9 

### higher or lower than its average price. We apply 10 

### average energy prices to the energy use of the 11 

### baseline. We apply marginal energy prices to any 12 

### energy savings in natural gas and electricity. 13 

### Marginal energy prices were derived from EIA data. 14 

### Future energy prices were based on EIA's 15 

### projections from 2019 to 2040. DOE multiplies the 16 

### prices described in the previous slide by the 17 

### forecasts of annual average price changes in EIA's 18 

### AEO 2014. The figure shown here is the projected 19 

### commercial National gas price trend. 20 

### Because the EIA projection only goes to 21 

### the year 2040, to estimate the trend after the year 22 

### 2040 we use the average rate of change from the yearsEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## 2030 to 2040. This is based on guidelines provided 2 

## to the Federal Energy Management Program by EIA. 3 

## The projected energy price for each of the 4 

## nine census divisions was applied to each building 5 

## example, based on the building's location. 6 

## The discount rate is another input into 7 

## the LCC analysis. The discount rate is the rate at 8 

## which future expenditures and savings are discounted 9 

## to establish their present value. Discount rates are 10 

## applied to all annual operating expenses in the LCC 11 

## analysis, including energy cost, repair costs and 12 

## maintenance costs. 13 

## DOE estimates discount rates separately 14 

## for commercial and residential end users. For 15 

## commercial end users, DOE calculates the commercial 16 

## discount rate as the weighted average cost of 17 

## capital, using the capital asset pricing model. 18 

## Damodaran Online is a widely used source 19 

## of information about company debt and equity 20 

## financing for most types of funds. This was the main 21 

## source of data for the discount rates analysis. You 22 

## can refer to Appendix 8-G for more details.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## So DOE seeks comments about whether its 2 

## planned approach for estimating discount rates for 3 

## commercial boilers. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And are there other methods 5 

## or sources that would be more appropriate if you 6 

## don't like this one. No comment here. No? Chuck. 7 

## MR. WHITE: Okay. No comment here. 8 

## MS. SINGLA: So DOE recognizes that 9 

## consumers today are already purchasing equipment 10 

## that's higher than the standard. DOE recognizes by 11 

## the year 2019, when this new standard will take 12 

## effect, there will be even more consumers purchasing 13 

## equipment that is higher than the standard. 14 

## DOE derived efficiency distributions by 15 

## equipment costs for commercial boilers for the base 16 

## case, that is for the year 2019. DOE did not have 17 

## access to sales data describing the actual 18 

## distribution of efficiencies in the base case or in 19 

## the current sales today. 20 

## So instead, DOE based the estimates of the 21 

## distribution of efficiencies on the AHRI models 22 

## database. We looked at the models directories fromEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## 2007 to 2014, we determined trends and projected the 2 

## trends forward to the year 2019. 3 

## So DOE requests data to characterize the 4 

## current distribution of commercial boiler 5 

## efficiencies in the market. DOE also requests data 6 

## on efficiency distribution and on the likelihood and 7 

## degree of improvement in efficiency of commercial 8 

## boilers in the next five to ten years, as a result of 9 

## market forces or industry trends. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank. 11 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. As I 12 

## mentioned earlier today, we certainly will try and 13 

## provide some of the data on distribution of products 14 

## by efficiency in our comments. As far as the degree 15 

## of improvement, we will also try and address that, 16 

## although I'm fairly confident that there will be 17 

## continued improvement. The condensing boilers in 18 

## both the residential and commercial side are still 19 

## having growth. 20 

## MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PPI 21 

## Industries. Both here and previously, you have used 22 

## the AHRI directory I believe inappropriately, thatEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## will likely lead to faulty conclusions. That is the 2 

## existence of a condensing or the existence of a 3 

## non-condensing product in that listing has no bearing 4 

## on how many are sold. 5 

## An example would be that when you're 6 

## looking at atmospheric and mechanical draft, looking 7 

## at that information, the atmospheric products, 8 

## because there's a very low cost to maintain them from 9 

## years ago, when they were entered into the program, 10 

## there's a likelihood that a manufacturer will 11 

## maintain those listings until it's not beneficial to 12 

## them, and then add in a new mechanical draft, which 13 

## may be where all of their sales are, or almost all of 14 

## their sales. But they maintain lots of atmospheric 15 

## listings, because it's easier for them to maintain 16 

## them. 17 

## There's not a link between the sales 18 

## volume and the number of listings of any particular 19 

## product type, whether it's atmospheric, mechanical or 20 

## condensing/non-condensing. 21 

## MS. SINGLA: Thank you for your comment. 22 

## I think hopefully Frank is able to provide data thatEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## would help address this. 2 

## So this table shows the results of the LCC 3 

## analysis for one equipment class. This is the 4 

## gas-fired small hot water mechanical draft boiler. 5 

## So it's all six efficiency levels considered, 6 

## including the base case efficiency. The values in 7 

## parentheses are negative values. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's just pause here. 9 

## Geoff Halley, please, you're up. 10 

## MR. HALLEY: Hello? 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Geoff, yes. 12 

## MR. HALLEY: Yes. I didn't really have 13 

## much of a comment actually with this. But I just 14 

## wonder what a reasonable payback period is at this 15 

## point in time, because they look awfully high to me, 16 

## these payback periods, and certainly, you know, at 17 

## one time not too long ago, you know, if you were 18 

## beyond two or three years payback, it wasn't an 19 

## acceptable project. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So you're referring to 21 

## Slide 81, and do you wish to say anything more 22 

## specific?Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### MR. HALLEY: No. I just, you know, while you've 2 

### got negative life-cycle cost as well, you know. 3 

### Does it make sense to go to these high efficiency 4 

### boilers from a business point of view? 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay, thank you. Do 6 

### you want to just cover the highlights on this slide? 7 

### MS. SINGLA: Yes, so that was basically 8 

### it. These values are average value across all the 9 

### ones that we did. You can see the complete -- for 10 

### each equipment class, you can see the complete 11 

### results in Chapter 8. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Frank. 13 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 14 

### Again, I haven't read through all the TSD material. 15 

### But I'm just curious. On this particular slide, the 16 

### life-cycle cost for Level 6 is more than the life 17 

### cycle cost of the baseline unit. 18 

### We can see the installed cost as 19 

### significantly different. The savings is about $1,600 20 

### a year. If you ran that backwards I guess 25 years, 21 

### that would probably -- that probably would cover the 22 

### difference in installed cost.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## My question is what's contributing to the 2 

## high life-cycle cost that we're not seeing here? 3 

## MS. SINGLA: So, I don't know if you low 4 

## calculation right now, but we include a discount rate 5 

## also. So that's part of it. But it's, you know, 6 

## there's no single answer. It's all the inputs that 7 

## we went over. 8 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay, all right. That may 9 

## explain some good part of it, okay. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments on 11 

## these LCC and payback period analysis results? 12 

## (No response.) 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 14 

## Shipments and National Impact Analysis 15 

## MS. SINGLA: We're ready to move to NIA? 16 

## All right. So next we'll talk about the shipments 17 

## and the National Impact Analysis. So we've already 18 

## talked about the life-cycle cost analysis and all the 19 

## inputs that go into that. 20 

## The next step is to determine the 21 

## shipments, and then use that together with the 22 

## outputs of the life-cycle cost analysis, in order toEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## determine the national impact. The purpose of a 2 

## shipments analysis is to estimate the annual 3 

## commercial boiler shipments for each equipment cost 4 

## over the analysis period. The shipments analysis is a 5 

## necessary input into the National Impact Analysis, as 6 

## well as the Manufacturer Impact Analysis. The 7 

## National Impact Analysis or the NIA estimates the 8 

## national energy savings and national economic impact 9 

## on consumers from commercial boiler energy 10 

## conservation standards at different efficiency 11 

## levels. 12 

## The shipments model forecasts the 13 

## commercial boilers that would be expected to be 14 

## shipped between 2019 and 2048, both with and without 15 

## new energy conservation standards. The shipments 16 

## model starts from a historic base year and calculates 17 

## retirements and shipments by market segment for each 18 

## year in the analysis period. This produces the total 19 

## equipment stock for each year of the analysis period. 20 

## The equipment stock efficiency 21 

## distribution is calculated for the base case and for 22 

## each standards case for each equipment class. TheEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## equipment stock efficiency distribution is used in 2 

## the National Impact Analysis to estimate the total 3 

## costs and benefits associated with each efficiency 4 

## level. 5 

## The shipments model considers three 6 

## different equipment placement channels. Those are 7 

## new construction, replacements and new owners. The 8 

## shipments model also accounts for the impact of 9 

## standards on shipments using price elasticities. 10 

## DOE uses multiple data sources in the 11 

## shipments model. DOE uses historical annual 12 

## shipments. DOE had historic annual shipments for one 13 

## year for commercial boilers, that was the year 2007, 14 

## for which we had -- for which we had commercial 15 

## boiler shipments disaggregated by fuel type. 16 

## In order to expand the historical 17 

## shipments beyond the year 2007, DOE used residential 18 

## boiler shipments data. Residential boiler shipments 19 

## data was available from 1960 to 2013, from data from 20 

## Appliance magazine, the Gas Appliance Manufacturers 21 

## Association and the Energy Star program. 22 

## So based on the trends seen in theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## residential boiler shipments, DOE applied that to the 2 

## commercial boiler shipments, to the 2007 commercial 3 

## boiler shipments, and with that, they were able to 4 

## expand the commercial boiler shipments. 5 

## DOE disaggregated between product classes, 6 

## that is, steam boilers versus hot water boilers, and 7 

## mechanical draft versus natural draft boilers, based 8 

## on the AHRI model directories from 2007 to 2014. 9 

## Another input into the shipments analysis 10 

## is the retirement function. The retirement function 11 

## is based entirely on the lifetime distribution, which 12 

## we've already discussed. 13 

## DOE also calculated shipments to new 14 

## construction. In order to do this, DOE estimated the 15 

## market saturation. That is, the number of buildings 16 

## with boilers installed compared to the total number 17 

## of buildings. This fraction came directly from CBECS 18 

## and RECS. 19 

## DOE obtained new building starts data and 20 

## projections from AEO 2014. So using these new 21 

## building starts projections, along with the market 22 

## saturations, we were able to determine the shipmentsEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## to the new construction market. DOE also accounted 2 

## for product-class switching. 3 

## The analysis based a split between natural 4 

## gas and mechanical draft on trends seen in the AHRI 5 

## database from 2007 to 2014. The trend that we 6 

## observed was that the mechanical draft market was 7 

## increasing, while the natural draft market was 8 

## decreasing. 9 

## DOE assumes that this trend continues 10 

## beyond the year 2014, and continues throughout the 11 

## analysis period. DOE observed a similar trend 12 

## between steam boilers and hot water boilers, where 13 

## the hot water boiler market is increasing. DOE 14 

## assumes that this trend also continues throughout the 15 

## analysis period. 16 

## DOE saw a similar trend between large 17 

## boiler models and small boiler models, where the 18 

## large boiler model market is decreasing, and the 19 

## small boiler model market is increasing. DOE 20 

## similarly assumes that this continues throughout the 21 

## analysis period. 22 

## DOE calculated price elasticity based onEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### 1 

## the planned shipments and household economic data 2 

## during the period 1890, or sorry 1980 through 2002. 3 

## You can see Appendix 9-A for more details. So this 4 

## chart shows the results of the shipments analysis, 5 

## both historical and projected. So from the chart, 6 

## it's obvious that each equipment cost grows and 7 

## decays at different rates. 8 

## So the bottom eight colors are all the 9 

## natural draft equipment classes. So from this, it's 10 

## clear that we're showing a decrease in the natural 11 

## draft market. You can also see that the largest or 12 

## the single equipment cost with the largest growth is 13 

## the blue one, the big blue one in the middle, and 14 

## that's the small mechanical draft hot water gas 15 

## boiler. 16 

## You can see that overall, the shipments 17 

## are pretty flat and don't have much growth over the 18 

## analysis period. 19 

## Okay. So DOE has several requests for 20 

## comments. DOE requests inputs on the shipments 21 

## projection methodology. DOE invites comments about 22 

## the selection of appropriate economic drivers, andEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## the sources of data for historical shipments and 2 

## shipments breakdowns for high equipment costs. 3 

## DOE seeks historical commercial boiler 4 

## shipments data which is aggregated by equipment class 5 

## and efficiency level, if available. DOE seeks input 6 

## on the potential impact of amended energy standards 7 

## on commercial boiler shipments. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank. 9 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. A couple 10 

## of immediate comments. As far as the shipment 11 

## projection methodology, the slide -- the previous 12 

## slide you talk about, new construction market -- I'm 13 

## sorry, maybe it was the one before that -- new 14 

## construction market saturation projected by new 15 

## buildings, again I think based on what the trends 16 

## are, it -- 17 

## I'll put it this way. I think an attempt 18 

## should be made to determine the -- how many boilers 19 

## get installed per each new building. In other words, 20 

## you know, if the trend is -- to be totally facetious 21 

## here, if the trend was that in fact new buildings 22 

## tend to each have on an average three new boilersEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## installed as a module or whatever, then you know, 2 

## that obviously would make the shipment, that part of 3 

## the shipment projection very different. 4 

## And again, I'm hedging here, because I 5 

## appreciate the difficulty of getting -- of trying to 6 

## get some good information. But I think you need to 7 

## realize that it's possible that in terms of new 8 

## construction, let's say the boiler shipment -- there 9 

## should be a boiler shipment multiplier as opposed to 10 

## one boiler per building. I think that's very 11 

## possible. 12 

## The other thing that is questionable, I 13 

## question is that your price elasticity there, I'm 14 

## reading -- and I hope I'm wrong, but I'm reading that 15 

## that basically you're using essentially data from 16 

## residential boilers to come up with price elasticity 17 

## for commercial models. 18 

## If that's the case, and again I appreciate 19 

## maybe that's the only thing you had. But if that's 20 

## the case, I'm going to say that's really -- that's 21 

## not great. That's not very useful, I don't think. I 22 

## mean again, when you get into commercial boilers, IEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### think you're dealing with a whole different pricing 2 

### structure and relationship between the customer and 3 

### the seller, whoever that might be. 4 

### I'd be real -- I am real leery about 5 

### taking any kind of residential data on certainly 6 

### something like price elasticity, and applying it to 7 

### commercial boilers. Some of the other stuff we said 8 

### before, you know. We will certainly try and provide 9 

### some of this shipment information to the extent that 10 

### our members can provide it. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Harvey. 12 

### MR. SACHS: On that Issue 34, there's just 13 

### some question about the extrapolation from -- I'm 14 

### sorry, not on 34, the issue of extrapolating from 15 

### residential elasticity to this product class. I 16 

### haven't read the whole TSD. There may be 17 

### justification for it. It's intuitively a little bit 18 

### perplexing to me. 19 

### MR. LEKOV: So -- Alex Lekov, LBNL. We 20 

### believe the analysis need to reflect the fact that 21 

### there is some impact on the shipments, as a result of 22 

### increased cost of the highest efficiency level. This isEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## the closest that we have to set of basically 2 

## relationship. 3 

## We realize that, and this is the type of 4 

## comment you guys have been commenting several times. 5 

## But that's the information that's available right 6 

## now. If you could comment on it and help to enhance 7 

## it, that would be great. Thank you. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9 

## MR. SACHS: I very much appreciate the 10 

## quandary you're in and I'm just a little bit afraid 11 

## that downstream, when this gets turned over to the 12 

## economists, who can be very literal people, they will 13 

## try to look at $50 differences in life cycle costs by 14 

## efficiency level, and think those numbers are real. 15 

## If we don't have a good metaphor, much 16 

## less a good model for what elasticity is or so many 17 

## of these other parameters, I'm just concerned about 18 

## how we make it clear to those who will use these 19 

## analyses where the sensitivities are and where the 20 

## uncertainties are. 21 

## That's the more general point, and I know 22 

## you're even more sensitive to that than I am, andEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## have much better tools than I do for addressing it. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have any additional 3 

## comments on this series of requests? Okay. 4 

## MS. SINGLA: The purpose of the National 5 

## Impact Analysis is to estimate the national impacts 6 

## of energy conservation standards for commercial 7 

## boilers shipped between 2019 and 2048. The impacts 8 

## on the national energy savings or the NES and the net 9 

## present value or the NPV were studied in particular. 10 

## The NES is the primary energy savings. It 11 

## is the difference between two projections. It is the 12 

## base-case energy use without new standards 13 

## projections, and the standards case, that is with new 14 

## standards-case projection. 15 

## The NPV is the difference between the 16 

## present value of energy cost savings, and the present 17 

## value of total installed-cost increase. The 18 

## methodology used to calculate the NES and NPV looks 19 

## at each equipment class at each standards case. 20 

## For each equipment class in each standards 21 

## case, the per unit cost increase and the per unit 22 

## energy savings due to the standards were calculated.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## The number of units or the stock were also 2 

## calculated, and the energy savings for each year were 3 

## calculated from 2019 to 2048. These two parameters 4 

## were combined in order to determine the NES and the 5 

## NPV. 6 

## We'll go over the inputs into the 7 

## calculations. So as I stated before, the national 8 

## energy savings is the difference in annual energy 9 

## savings between the base case and each standards case 10 

## summed over the analysis period. 11 

## The inputs into the NES calculation are 12 

## the annual energy consumption per unit, the 13 

## shipments, the equipment stock, the national annual 14 

## energy consumption, the rebound effect, site to 15 

## source conversation factor and the full-fuel-cycle 16 

## factor. 17 

## The net present value is the difference 18 

## between the present value of energy cost savings and 19 

## the present value of total installed cost increase. 20 

## The present value of total installed cost increase is 21 

## the difference in installed cost between the base 22 

## case and each standards case, discounted to theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## present and summed over the analysis period. 2 

## The present value of energy cost savings 3 

## is the difference between operating cost savings 4 

## between the base case and each standards case from 5 

## 2019 to the time when the last unit installed in 2048 6 

## is retired. 7 

## The inputs into the NPV calculation are 8 

## the total installed cost per unit, the annual per 9 

## unit savings and operating cost, the shipments, the 10 

## equipment stock, the total annual increases in 11 

## installed cost, the total annual operating cost and 12 

## the discount factor. 13 

## A key component of the NIA is the 14 

## efficiency of boilers projected over time to the base 15 

## case, that is without new standards, and for each of 16 

## the standards case that is with potential new 17 

## standards. For each equipment cost, DOE develops a 18 

## distribution of efficiencies in the base case for the 19 

## year 2019. 20 

## In each standards case, DOE assumes a 21 

## roll-up scenario to establish the efficiency 22 

## distribution for 2019. Equipment efficiencies in theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## base case that do not meet the standards case under 2 

## consideration would roll up to meet the new standard 3 

## level. 4 

## All efficiency shares in the base case 5 

## that are already above the standard under 6 

## consideration would not be affected. DOE projected 7 

## efficiency trends after the year 2019 as well. After 8 

## 2019, DOE assumes that the share of market -- that 9 

## the market share of condensing boilers will increase 10 

## linearly. 11 

## Within condensing boilers, the efficiency 12 

## distribution remains at the same proportions as in 13 

## 2019. The efficiency distribution of non-condensing 14 

## boilers remains the same after 2019, even though the 15 

## overall market share of non-condensing boilers 16 

## decreases. 17 

## So this chart shows the overall projected 18 

## growth of the condensing boiler market. This is 19 

## based on the AHRI Models Directory from 2007 to 2014. 20 

## We simply just extrapolated it to the year 2049. The 21 

## condensing market share only applies to four 22 

## equipment classes. Those are the hot water andEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## mechanical draft equipment classes. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank. 3 

## MR. STANONIK: Before you leave 4 

## that chart. 5 

## MS. SINGLA: Yes. 6 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 7 

## Okay. So we've had a bit of a discussion earlier, 8 

## that in fact the actual market availability of 9 

## condensing oil boilers of any size is extremely 10 

## small, I think, and now how did you get -- 11 

## So in 2019, you're showing, you know, I 12 

## would say roughly something on the order of eight or 13 

## nine percent for a small oil and 18-19 percent for 14 

## large oil. How did you get to that number from where 15 

## we are today? 16 

## MS. SINGLA: So this was based on trends 17 

## in the AHRI Models Directory from 2007 to 2014. So we 18 

## looked at the growth during that period and projected 19 

## it forward. We assumed a linear growth. 20 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay. Then I'm going to -- 21 

## and again, I will research this, but I'm going to 22 

## venture that whatever trend you saw for the oilEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## condensing products, I would say is not a big enough 2 

## sample to say it's a trend at this point. 3 

## And again, I'll go back and check. I'm 4 

## not, you know, I'm not going to profess that I'm 5 

## reviewing the status of oil condensing boilers on 6 

## anything like a regular basis. But to my 7 

## understanding, those are still pretty rare products. 8 

## MS. SINGLA: Yeah. We appreciate your 9 

## comment. We'll take that into consideration. 10 

## In 2011, DOE announced the use of a full11 

## fuel cycle or FFC metric in the cost-benefit 12 

## analysis. The methodology is based on the 13 

## calculation of a full-fuel-cycle multiplier, or a 14 

## conversion factor, for each of the primary fuels used 15 

## by the product. 16 

## For this preliminary analysis, DOE 17 

## calculated FFC energy savings using a methodology 18 

## based on the National Energy Modeling System or NEMS. 19 

## This is described in detail in Appendix 10-B. 20 

## The primary NES and FFC energy savings for 21 

## the considered efficiency levels are reported in full 22 

## in Chapter 10.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## So this is the table of the Primary 2 

## National Energy Savings. There was also in quads, 3 

## and the results from other states for multiple 4 

## equipment classes for each considered efficiency 5 

## level. 6 

## So the next few tables, the new few slides 7 

## are just results tables. So this is the -- the next 8 

## slide is the full-fuel-cycle national energy savings 9 

## results, with again the results in quads. 10 

## The next table is the Net Present Value 11 

## results, with a discount rate of three-percent 12 

## applied. So note that the negative values are 13 

## indicated by parentheses. And the last results table 14 

## is the Net Present Value results, discounted to seven15 

## percent. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Comments, questions on any 17 

## of these foregoing tables? 18 

## (No response.) 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We have a question from 20 

## Jeff Kleiss. Jeff asks "Is the total annual increase 21 

## in installed cost inflation, or does it have a 22 

## broader scope?"Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MS. SINGLA: The total annual increase 2 

## is -- 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: In installed cost 4 

## inflation, or does it have a broader scope? 5 

## MS. SINGLA: Based on differences between 6 

## different equipment classes? 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: I'm not sure. Jeff, can 8 

## you unmute your phone? 9 

## MR. KLEISS: Yeah. This is Jeff Kleiss 10 

## from Lochinvar, and this is going back to the Slide 11 

## 91, where you're going through the Net Present Value, 12 

## and it's the assumption for total annual increase in 13 

## installed cost, the increase attributable to 14 

## standard, calculated by vintage. 15 

## I'm just wondering, is that -- are you 16 

## just saying that that's the cost increase of 17 

## installed appliances based on inflation, or are there 18 

## other factors that are influencing that -- 19 

## MS. SINGLA: Yeah. This is just based on 20 

## the different efficiency levels. So this right here 21 

## is actually we take the efficiency weighted total 22 

## installed increase. So it's the shipment's weightedEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## efficiency total installed increase. Alex, do you 2 

## want to clarify that? 3 

## MR. LEKOV: If I understand -- Alex Lekov, 4 

## LBNL. If I understand his question, in essence, as 5 

## she just said, we're accounting for the increased 6 

## cost of the equipment and the installation cost over 7 

## the years. It's not inflation rate. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9 

## MR. KLEISS: Okay. So there's no 10 

## consideration for, as years ago on, that there might 11 

## be inflation and that the cost -- the initial 12 

## installed cost of appliances is going to go up with 13 

## inflation? 14 

## MR. LEKOV: This is accounted -- Alex 15 

## Lekov, LBNL. This is accounted in the discount rate. 16 

## MR. KLEISS: Okay. Thank you. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So four tables of a lot of 18 

## data. Any comments or questions about all of those? 19 

## Frank. 20 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. I think I 21 

## know the answer. I just want to make sure I'm 22 

## remembering right. So on your savings here, as anEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## example, just in the first row, the savings at 2 

## Efficiency Level 3, that is the total savings 3 

## compared to the baseline? 4 

## MS. SINGLA: Correct. 5 

## MR. STANONIK: So each one of those is 6 

## that level compared to the baseline. They're not 7 

## additive in other words? 8 

## MS. SINGLA: Correct. Each one compared 9 

## to the baseline. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We're going to move 11 

## on to Preliminary Manufacturer Analysis. 12 

## MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I 13 

## thought we're going to a list of questions. So I was 14 

## holding my comment. But I think it's probably 15 

## appropriate to make it now. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's do it. Let's back up 17 

## to wherever we need to back up to. 18 

## MR. MYERS: You can go back to the 19 

## previous slide, although it appears it applies to 20 

## this section, and that is there appears to me to be a 21 

## fundamental flaw in the analysis. Not in the 22 

## details, but in the concept.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## It appears, and correct me if I'm wrong, 2 

## that this analysis is largely based on if you 3 

## increase the boiler efficiency, there will be a 4 

## resulting savings, and where you cannot get savings 5 

## if you don't have the efficiency, having the 6 

## efficiency does not mean that you're going to have 7 

## energy savings, and therefore any payback. 8 

## If for example, the building stock is 9 

## designed -- the boiler system and the building stock 10 

## is designed to have a return water temperature of 130 11 

## degrees or higher, there will be no, zero, nada 12 

## savings from the application of a condensing boiler 13 

## of any efficiency, because the boiler cannot 14 

## condense. 15 

## So to think that requiring a boiler to be 16 

## more efficient is therefore going to result in more 17 

## energy savings is incorrect. In fact, if your return 18 

## water temperature, the building is not designed for 19 

## return water temperature of 100 degrees or below, 20 

## you're only going to have a tiny amount of savings. 21 

## Now if there are 100 degrees or below yes, you can get 22 

## good savings from a condensing product.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### And it's my observation -- now this is 2 

### anecdotal, based on my experience, that the vast 3 

### majority of building stock in the U.S. today has a 4 

### return water temperature of between 140 and 160 5 

### degrees. And in any of those buildings, if you apply a 6 

### condensing appliance, there will be zero additional 7 

### savings. 8 

### MR. SACHS: Frank, this is Harvey, and I 9 

### much appreciate the concern, and I think this loops 10 

### back to the conversation we were having this morning 11 

### about Tom Durken's published experience with 12 

### conversion of high temperature systems in schools 13 

### to low temperature systems in the same buildings, 14 

### where he reported savings up into, as I recall, 70 15 

### percent or so as the high end on steamed buildings he 16 

### converted, and this included all of the retrofit 17 

### costs, down into the 40 percent range for some decent 18 

### hot-water systems. 19 

### So it may be that there are large classes 20 

### of buildings for which this is not feasible, but I 21 

### think that the assertion that it's almost never 22 

### feasible because of the designed-in temperatures,Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## contradicts some field experience that I will 2 

## introduce into the record, so it can be criticized 3 

## and reviewed. 4 

## MR. MYERS: Excellent. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Frank. 6 

## MR. MYERS: Thank you. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's press on. Yes, Alex 8 

## Lekov. 9 

## MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, LBNL. Just for 10 

## the record, in fact Frank, DOE's analysis account for 11 

## the fact that the fraction of installation of 12 

## condensing boilers were not going to operate in the 13 

## condensing conditions. So this loss of efficiency is 14 

## accounted in the analysis. Thank you. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 16 

## MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers again. Do 17 

## you -- does the record include the percentage that 18 

## you are taking that action on? My sense is that it's 19 

## the vast majority. So I'm curious as to what 20 

## percentage was selected. 21 

## MR. LEKOV: But DOE's life-cycle-cost 22 

## analysis spreadsheet and the technical supportEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## document in Chapter 7 account this information. Of 2 

## course, you could take the fractions and approach 3 

## that is described there, and provide comments that 4 

## could improve DOE's analysis for the next phase. 5 

## Thank you. 6 

## MR. MYERS: Thank you. I'll look at 7 

## Chapter 7. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks. 9 

## MR. GLASS: This is Robert Glass with 10 

## Raypak. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 12 

## MR. GLASS: Just to carry on, one of the 13 

## things said earlier this morning was that there was 14 

## changing out the distribution heat transfer surface 15 

## was not taken into consideration in costs or anything 16 

## else, but that there was some portion that was taken, 17 

## realizing that condensing products would not be 18 

## operating in the condensing zone, and that that was 19 

## taken into account. 20 

## But if, as Frank had mentioned, if the 21 

## final distribution heat condenser surface is not 22 

## providing it in any type of a retrofit standpoint,Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## then I also stand by what Frank was saying, is that 2 

## you're not going to have the savings that is being 3 

## projected. 4 

## That even backs up what Harvey was saying, 5 

## from the standpoint of if a building was retrofitted 6 

## and completely retrofitted, which means therefore the 7 

## costs associated with the distribution and the end 8 

## heat transfer, that needs to be accounted for if these 9 

## savings that are being projected are going to be 10 

## realized. Otherwise, what's being projected there 11 

## will not be realized. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Do we have 13 

## additional comments here before we move onto the 14 

## preliminary MIA? Okay. We're moving on. 15 

## Preliminary Manufacturer Impact Analysis 16 

## MR. ALLEN: Hi. My name's Andrew Allen 17 

## and I work for Navigant, and I will be presenting the 18 

## preliminary Manufacturer Impact Analysis. So the 19 

## Manufacturer Impact Analysis takes into account 20 

## inputs from the Market and Tech Assessment, as well as 21 

## the Engineering Analysis and the Shipments Analysis. 22 

## The purpose of the MIA is to identifyEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## potential impacts for amended energy conservation 2 

## standards on manufacturers of commercial packaged 3 

## boilers. The analysis is conducted in three phases. 4 

## In the first phase, DOE creates an industry profile 5 

## to characterize the industry, that identifies 6 

## important issues that require consideration. 7 

## This is primarily what I will be focusing 8 

## on today, as this is a part of the MIA that DOE 9 

## conducts in the preliminary analysis stage of the 10 

## rulemaking process. The bulk of the quantitative 11 

## analysis is on the second and third phases of the 12 

## MIA, which take place during the NOPR stage of the 13 

## rulemaking process. 14 

## In the second phase, DOE prepares an 15 

## industry cash flow model and an interview 16 

## questionnaire to guide subsequent discussions with 17 

## manufacturers. And in the third phase, DOE interviews 18 

## manufacturers and assesses the impacts of standards, 19 

## both quantitatively using the government regulatory 20 

## impact model and qualitatively, taking into 21 

## consideration potential impacts of standards on 22 

## industry competition, manufacturing capacity, directEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## employment and regulatory burden. 2 

## So as I mentioned, in the preliminary 3 

## analysis stage of rulemakings, the MIA focuses on 4 

## identifying key issues that require consideration in 5 

## the analysis going forward. DOE primarily identifies 6 

## these issues through preliminary interviews with 7 

## manufacturers. So the first issue that DOE 8 

## identified is that amended standards and an altered 9 

## test procedure could require commercial packaged 10 

## boiler manufacturers to retest all of their models, 11 

## which could strain laboratory and engineering 12 

## resources and be financially burdensome. 13 

## Manufacturers stated that testing is 14 

## particularly challenging for commercial packaged 15 

## boilers, because of the large size of most equipment, 16 

## and the fact that many commercial packaged boilers are 17 

## custom manufactured. 18 

## The second issue DOE identified is that 19 

## not many American manufacturers produce condensing 20 

## heat exchangers. Therefore, any standard 21 

## necessitating condensing technology would require 22 

## manufacturers to either continue to source heatEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### 1 

## exchangers from overseas, or make investments in 2 

## product development and capital equipment to create 3 

## their own production capacity. 4 

## And so the last key issue DOE identified 5 

## is that DOE recognizes amended standards could 6 

## differentially impact small businesses. DOE has 7 

## preliminarily identified 21 small business 8 

## manufacturers of commercial packaged boilers, and 9 

## manufacturers stated that these companies may have 10 

## fewer engineering, testing and capital resources to 11 

## adapt to standards, compared to other competitors. 12 

## In the NOPR stage, DOE will conduct a 13 

## Regulatory Flexibility Analysis that examines the 14 

## potential impacts on small entities of amended 15 

## standards. 16 

## So this brings us to issues on which DOE 17 

## is seeking comment. In Issue 31, DOE is requesting 18 

## comments and information on small business 19 

## manufacturers, and any information that can help 20 

## inform the regulatory flexibility analysis. 21 

## In Issue 32, more generally, DOE is 22 

## requesting comments on any additional subgroups thatEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## warrant analysis, that may have different cost 2 

## structures or operate within different regulatory 3 

## frameworks from the rest of the industry. 4 

## And finally in Issue 33, DOE is requesting 5 

## comment on its overall identification of key issues 6 

## for this rulemaking, and is requesting any additional 7 

## data or information that will assist it in evaluating 8 

## the potential impact of amended standards on 9 

## manufacturers. 10 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I'd like 11 

## to return to your first item, testing burden. The 12 

## amended standards and an altered test procedure could 13 

## require CPB manufacturers to retest all models which 14 

## could strain lab resources and result in added 15 

## financial burden. 16 

## These are issues which have been addressed 17 

## respectively in the 2013 Negotiated Rulemaking, which 18 

## included this class of equipment, and in the recent 19 

## residential hot water heater or water heater 20 

## standards rulemaking, which involved a very major 21 

## shift in the paradigm for classifying and rating 22 

## residential water heaters.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## On the first issue, there was widespread 2 

## acceptance, which certainly will have some burdens 3 

## differentially across manufacturers, of the concept 4 

## for off-setting, to the extent possible, physical 5 

## testing in the lab with simulations such as the AEDMs. 6 

## If we're going to look at this, we need to look at 7 

## what can be done, what cannot be done with AEDMs. 8 

## With respect to the second issue, by law 9 

## DOE was committed to developing the translation 10 

## engine, to allow for existing products to be given 11 

## ratings with the new rating method, based on 12 

## algebraic conversions. We recognize, all of us I 13 

## think, that this will not be perfect, but we think 14 

## that there will be minimum disruption in terms of 15 

## either disqualifying or mis-rating equipment. 16 

## It's a one-time process, and it depends 17 

## upon this proceeding going all the way through 18 

## without or getting a new test method. So I 19 

## respectfully suggest that this requires using the 20 

## recent history of DOE rulemakings to think about what 21 

## it actually means. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now you see theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### three comment boxes. Additional thoughts on these? 2 

### Subgroups, for example, small businesses and others. 3 

### MR. SACHS: I want to say one other thing 4 

### on that. This is Harvey. The issue of testing 5 

### burden on small business is a real one. My father-in-law 6 

### was a small manufacturer and I'm sensitive to this. The 7 

### biggest contribution we could make to helping small 8 

### business survive and thrive would be development of 9 

### standardized simulation engines, open source that 10 

### manufacturers could use, rather than each one having 11 

### to develop its own proprietary information or 12 

### proprietary model. 13 

### It need not be a requirement to use the 14 

### DOE model. Others could be validated. But DOE does 15 

### have research resources, it does have standards 16 

### resources, and if we're serious about small business 17 

### taking your observation of burden and converting that 18 

### to opportunity for more sophisticated design, it 19 

### would seem to be well worth doing. End of rant. 20 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, thank you. Any 21 

### additional comments on these three? 22 

### MR. SACHS: Jim Raba is prescient onEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### that. This is Harvey again. DOE's heat pump model 2 

### has been very widely used, I'm told, by multiple air 3 

### conditioner and heat pump manufacturers. This was a 4 

### model developed at Oak Ridge. I don't care where 5 

### it's developed, and it's been in use for a couple of 6 

### decades now, as something of an industry resource 7 

### that's open to anyone. 8 

### There's no reason we can't do this much 9 

### more widely, and I'm quite confident that the 10 

### manufacturers will discover the defects in any models 11 

### you develop leading to iterative improvement, just like 12 

### all other software. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. No additional comments 14 

### here? 15 

### (No responses.) 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Not at this time, okay. 17 

### Then to Next Steps. 18 

### Next Steps 19 

### MS. SINGLA: So the presentations that you 20 

### have heard today, including the engineering analysis, 21 

### the life cycle costs, the National Impact Analysis, 22 

### those are all preliminary analyses. So in the nextEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## phase, in the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking or the 2 

## NOPR, we will revise all of those preliminary 3 

## analyses. 4 

## In addition to that, DOE will also perform 5 

## a series of new analyses. The new analyses that DOE 6 

## will perform in the NOPR phase include the Consumer 7 

## Subgroup Analysis, the Manufacturer Impact Analysis 8 

## and Emission Impact Analysis, Utility Impact Analysis, 9 

## Indirect Employment Analysis and the Regulatory 10 

## Impact Analysis. 11 

## In the preliminary analysis phase, we 12 

## developed results from multiple efficiency levels for 13 

## each equipment class. In the NOPR analysis, 14 

## efficiency levels from each equipment class are 15 

## grouped together to create trial standard levels or 16 

## TSLs. The TSLs represent potential new standards. 17 

## Each TSL consists of a set of efficiency 18 

## levels covering all product classes, and may vary 19 

## between product classes. The NOPR analysis assesses 20 

## impacts for TSLs, not for efficiency levels. DOE 21 

## applies the methodology to assemble the TSLs. 22 

## Some possible criteria that could be usedEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### to determine the TSLs include most energy efficient 2 

### level, efficiency level with the lowest life-cycle 3 

### cost, efficiency level with a payback period of three 4 

### years or less, efficiency levels with noteworthy 5 

### technologies, and efficiency levels that fill in 6 

### large gaps. 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: So DOE requests feedback on the 8 

### criteria that it should use for basing this selection of the 9 

### TSLs. Thoughts on this? 10 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. A 11 

### kind of immediate comment, and admittedly a bit of a 12 

### generalization. But I think because we're talking 13 

### commercial boilers and the fact that it's a very 14 

### mature product, I think that your selection of trial 15 

### standard levels should have a significant basis of, in 16 

### fact, models that are available on the market today. 17 

### I think in most -- I'm trying to remember 18 

### what I saw much earlier on one of the slides. I 19 

### think, you know, most of the levels being discussed, 20 

### there are probably one or two or three models 21 

### available at those levels. If not, then maybe it's 22 

### not a level to look at.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## But I think there should be, in this case, 2 

## significant correlation between models available on 3 

## the market today and the trial standard levels you 4 

## look at, excluding max tech. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Frank. 6 

## MS. SINGLA: So one of the additional 7 

## analyses that DOE will conduct in another phase is 8 

## the consumer subgroup analysis. The purpose of the 9 

## consumer subgroup analysis is to analyze the economic 10 

## impacts of standards on commercial consumers, 11 

## including subgroups who may be disproportionately 12 

## impacted compared with the general use population. 13 

## DOE determines the consumer subgroups 14 

## impacted by modifying the SEC analysis to examine the 15 

## impacts for defining subgroups. So DOE requests any 16 

## input as to which consumer subgroups, if any, it 17 

## should consider when developing standards for 18 

## commercial buildings. 19 

## (No response.) 20 

## MS. SINGLA: So we'll talk about the 21 

## remaining additional analysis that DOE will perform 22 

## in the NOPR phase. In the NOPR phase, DOE willEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## perform an emissions impact analysis. The purpose of 2 

## the analysis is to estimate the emissions impacts 3 

## from amended energy conservation standards. 4 

## DOE uses the full fuel cycle energy 5 

## savings, which were determined in the NIA, together 6 

## with the emissions factors from AEO, in order to 7 

## estimate the emissions reduction as a result of 8 

## savings, I'm sorry, as a result of standards. 9 

## DOE estimates the reduction in common 10 

## sector, common site combustion emissions of carbon 11 

## dioxide, nitrogen oxides, sulfur dioxide, mercury, 12 

## methane, and nitrous oxide. DOE considers the 13 

## estimated mandatory benefits that could be the result 14 

## of reduced emissions of CO2 from the energy standards. 15 

## To estimate benefits from CO2, benefits 16 

## plans to use the social costs of carbon values, which 17 

## were developed by an inter-agency process. So DOE 18 

## requests any information or requests comments about 19 

## emissions and also an emission monetization 20 

## analysis, and you can see the specific questions on 21 

## the slide. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And particularly if thereEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## are any other approaches that DOE should consider. 2 

## MS. SINGLA: In the NOPR, DOE will perform 3 

## a utility impact analysis. The purpose of this 4 

## analysis is to assess the overall impacts on domestic 5 

## energy supplies that would result from the standard. 6 

## The utility impact analysis is performed by taking 7 

## the national energy savings results from the NIA and 8 

## applying them in the National Energy Modeling System 9 

## or NEMS. 10 

## The output of NEMS includes the change in 11 

## energy sales and prices by region, the mix of energy 12 

## generation and the change in new electricity capacity 13 

## generation. The utility impact analysis reports the 14 

## change in new generation capacity. DOE seeks input 15 

## about its plans to use NEMS to conduct the utility 16 

## impact analysis. 17 

## (No response.) 18 

## MS. SINGLA: Another analysis that DOE 19 

## will perform in the NOPR phase in the indirect 20 

## employment analysis. The direct employment analysis 21 

## was already discussed a little while earlier in the 22 

## manufacturers impact analysis. Here, we are talkingEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## about the indirect employment analysis. 2 

## The purpose of this analysis is to report 3 

## the net jobs created or eliminated nationally as a 4 

## consequence of new energy conservation standards. 5 

## The impact analysis uses the IMSET tool, which is a 6 

## spreadsheet model of the U.S. economy that focuses on 7 

## the sectors most relevant to building energy use. 8 

## Changes in product and energy expenditures 9 

## are taken from the MIA. The outputs of this analysis 10 

## is the change in employment by sector as a 11 

## consequence of new standards. DOE requests comments 12 

## about its planned approach for assessing national 13 

## indirect employment impacts. 14 

## (No response.) 15 

## MS. SINGLA: The final analysis that DOE 16 

## will perform in the NOPR phase is the regulatory 17 

## impact analysis. The purpose of this analysis is to 18 

## investigate the national impacts due to 19 

## non-regulatory alternatives, compared with mandatory 20 

## energy conservation standards. 21 

## The non-regulatory alternatives that may 22 

## be considered include no new regulatory action, earlyEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### 1 

## replacement, prescriptive standards, consumer tax 2 

## credits, manufacturer tax credits, consumer rebates, 3 

## voluntary efficiency targets and bulk government 4 

## procurement. 5 

## The regulatory impact analysis was 6 

## performed by modifying the NIA spreadsheet to 7 

## consider non-regulatory scenarios. The 8 

## non-regulatory scenarios increase overall plant 9 

## efficiency modeled by modifying the base case 10 

## efficiency trend. 11 

## The NPV is calculated by non-regulatory 12 

## alternatives, in the same way as for the adopted 13 

## standard. The output of this analysis is the 14 

## national energy savings and net present value of the 15 

## non-regulatory alternatives. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff Kleiss wishes to make 17 

## a comment or ask a question. Jeff, please go ahead. 18 

## MR. KLEISS: Actually, I realize that the 19 

## context was wrong, and I don't have anything to add. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. So 21 

## regulatory impact analysis. There you see the 22 

## description. Questions and comments on what'sEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## presented here? Yes, Frank Stanonik. 2 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I 3 

## guess I'm trying to make sure I understand this 4 

## process, because actually this last slide puzzled me 5 

## a little bit. So going back to the schedule in, I 6 

## think it's roughly June or July, officially DOE is 7 

## supposed to determine whether they are going to -- 8 

## whether a change is appropriate in the standards or 9 

## not. 10 

## And, maybe I'm getting residential and 11 

## commercial mixed up, and my recollection is that if 12 

## they decide a change is required, they issue a NOPR 13 

## at that time. And why are we talking about DOE 14 

## issuing a NOPR? So I'm really a little bit -- I'm no 15 

## understanding why, and I appreciate it. But why 16 

## would they be looking at non-regulatory alternatives, 17 

## when it seems to me there's at least, if not a 18 

## decision, a strong leaning towards having a next, you 19 

## know, a next level of new standards? I'm missing 20 

## something, I think. 21 

## (Off mic comment.) 22 

## MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE. Well, youEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### 1 

## know, if look back in the regulatory analyses which 2 

## follow any of these rulemakings, this is one of the 3 

## requirements. I think it's under Executive Order 4 

## 12866, that there has to be an analysis of 5 

## non-regulatory alternatives. 6 

## That goes into the RIA document, which I 7 

## think is put in the docket along with the TSD. So 8 

## this is the very standard theme print that you 9 

## actually see all the time. So this is nothing new. 10 

## It's just part of the normal, the normal process. 11 

## And you know, one of the things that you 12 

## have to look at is no action, but clearly EPCA is 13 

## directing us to take action to analyze these things, 14 

## and to do no action only if it's a no standard 15 

## standard kind of situation, which sometimes happens 16 

## but isn't typically the case. 17 

## MR. STANONIK: But so this part of the 18 

## analysis will be in the NOPR package? 19 

## MR. STAS: Yes. It's typically there 20 

## every time. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments on this 22 

## series of analyses that will occur downstream in theEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## NOPR phase? All right, okay. So then now, as we 2 

## promised first thing this morning, is another 3 

## opportunity for comment. Anybody that wishes to make 4 

## comments here as we move towards closure, issues that 5 

## you wish to bring to the floor that haven't been 6 

## covered sufficiently. Concluding remarks. 7 

## MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Could 8 

## you roll back to the previous slide please? 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: 115? 10 

## MR. MYERS: Yes. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. 12 

## MR. MYERS: Something that -- this might 13 

## be statutory, and if so, I apologize, in terms of the 14 

## things that may be considered. But one 15 

## non-regulatory alternative that might be considered 16 

## is to look at ASHRAE 90.1 and create some kind of 17 

## requirement that new buildings or renovated buildings 18 

## have to put in systems that can utilize condensing 19 

## equipment. 20 

## There's lots of condensing equipment out 21 

## right now and the biggest holdback from more of it 22 

## being applied is not a regulation saying you have toEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### have it. It's that wed like to have more buildings that 2 

### can use it. 3 

### So that might be something to look at as a 4 

### non-regulatory alternative, would be some form of 5 

### requirement, based on positive payback, that might 6 

### well be seen to for new buildings, and potentially 7 

### for modified buildings, to require them to have low 8 

### return water temperatures so the benefit of 9 

### condensing boilers can be enjoyed. 10 

### That would tremendously increase the 11 

### application of condensing equipment. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 13 

### MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Of course 14 

### Frank, that is a regulatory but non-standards 15 

### approach, in that the 90.1 would be adopted into code 16 

### by the jurisdictions authorities. 17 

### MR. MYERS: True enough. 18 

### MR. SACHS: Pardon me? 19 

### MR. MYERS: True enough. I say you're absolutely 20 

### correct. I was thinking about a DOE efficiency 21 

### regulation. This would be an alternative to that. 22 

### But it is in fact quasi-regulatory.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## MR. SACHS: You would certainly find the 2 

## advocates strongly supportive of that, and working 3 

## with y'all on anything we could do. Again, Durkin 4 

## has a small sample of 20 schools that he published, 5 

## ten steam, ten high-temperature hot water. 6 

## But minimum savings were still somewhere 7 

## in the range of 40 percent for doing those system 8 

## changeouts, and that's very, very large in the 9 

## context of what we can achieve with standards alone. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Jeff Kleiss, 11 

## unmute your phone. Let's hear from you. 12 

## MR. KLEISS: Alright, two things. One, I 13 

## wanted to say thanks to DOE for the exclusion of 14 

## looking at standby electrical power consumption. I 15 

## think that's very reasonable, and considering the vast 16 

## majority of the power consumption that's being used 17 

## on these products. I appreciate that. 18 

## The other thing is when you're -- I 19 

## overlooked stating this before. When you're doing 20 

## your cost analysis for products, as -- if there is 21 

## any consideration of altogether eliminating 22 

## condensing appliances, there are --Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## Because so many of the heat exchangers for 2 

## condensing appliances are purchased, particularly 3 

## from overseas, that it will affect many 4 

## manufacturers, the overhead structure that they have, 5 

## and increase the cost of all their remaining 6 

## products, because there's going to be a lot of 7 

## overhead and equipment that has been used to produce 8 

## non-condensing heat exchangers, that will now become 9 

## idle, and that cost will have to be absorbed in the 10 

## remaining products. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Jeff. Thank you. 12 

## Closing remarks, additional final comments? 13 

## MR. GLASS: This is Robert Glass with 14 

## Raypak. One of the concerns that I again want to go 15 

## ahead and mention it here is still related to what is 16 

## being projected as the estimated lifetime for 17 

## condensing boilers. 18 

## I don't know if it's possible to go 19 

## through the process, but I've heard there were some 20 

## comments and feedback from the field in regards to a 21 

## 15-year being more representative of condensing 22 

## products. I don't know if it's possible to also doEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### some of these analyses using 15 years. 2 

### So that you could say that okay, if it was 3 

### between 15 or it was between 25 or something in 4 

### there, you'd have an opportunity to see really what 5 

### is realistic, what is the payback, what is the life6 

### cycle cost associated with using condensing products. 7 

### I think it would be very eye-opening, and 8 

### I think that just leaving it at the 24.8 that's 9 

### currently in there is going to be adversely affecting 10 

### some of the decisions that are made, because in 11 

### reality, we don't know what it is. 12 

### But I think manufacturers that produce 13 

### condensing products all feel that the life of the 14 

### condensing product is going to be substantially 15 

### shorter than the 24.8 years that's been identified 16 

### today. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Alex Lekov. 18 

### MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, LBNL. So in regards to 19 

### this 20 

### question about the differences in the 21 

### lifetime between condensing and non-condensing 22 

### equipment, DOE will consider any data that could beEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## provided. At a minimum, DOE will perform scenarios 2 

## based on their proposal of it, which will show the 3 

## economic results as an outcome of different 4 

## lifetimes. 5 

## MR. GLASS: Well, one of the things that 6 

## goes along to support that is that there is currently 7 

## no requirements for any annual maintenance on boilers. 8 

## Where in Europe, particularly in the UK, there are 9 

## requirements for annual maintenance of product before 10 

## the gas company will even turn on the boiler in the 11 

## wintertime. 12 

## If that were something that somehow were 13 

## legislated into place, then I think that would 14 

## enhance the lifetime of condensing products. But 15 

## without that requirement, the lifetime of condensing 16 

## products is going to be substantially less than that 17 

## 24.8 that's been presented. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 19 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I 20 

## certainly second the spirit of Mr. Glass' remarks, 21 

## that we should be looking at international 22 

## experience, not only with respect to maintenance,Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## maintenance contracts, and perhaps better estimates of 2 

## equipment life, but also in terms of incremental 3 

## costs, where condensing boilers are a much larger 4 

## fraction of the market. 5 

## This is a mature product class. We do 6 

## find -- well, we have often saluted industry on its 7 

## incredible ingenuity in finding ways to ring-out costs 8 

## as competition increases, and I think we have stated 9 

## for years that looking at international comparisons 10 

## is important, and would encourage the Department in 11 

## that direction. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Frank. 13 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Not, 14 

## because I think I guess then we're kind of winding 15 

## down here. So I'm going to admittedly belabor a 16 

## point, because to us, it is important, and that is 17 

## that as this thing goes forward, we certainly 18 

## strongly believe that we need to have the test 19 

## procedure finalized, and the determination about 20 

## natural draft boilers finalized before this 21 

## rulemaking on the standards gets too far ahead of 22 

## those.Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### I think as we talked about, and it 2 

### certainly seems to me those things need to be -- 3 

### ideally would be known to all as final or close to 4 

### final before we see the NOPR on this. That would be 5 

### thus very important to properly addressing and 6 

### responding to the NOPR on the standard. 7 

### MR. SACHS: Frank, you hit one of my hot 8 

### buttons. This is Harvey, and I've worked on 9 

### standards committees at ASHRAE, I've worked on standards 10 

### committees at AHRI. In this particular area, we have 11 

### had a need that has been recognized for two decades, 12 

### for a vision cycle today which the AHRI side, which 13 

### you said is not going to give us things that we've 14 

### long identified as needed. 15 

### I don't know whether I'm going to pull out 16 

### the two remaining hairs on my head, or make an 17 

### exception to my usual stance, and say that DOE may 18 

### have to intervene to get something in a timely 19 

### manner, that ASHRAE and AHRI have simply been unable 20 

### to move the ball. 21 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. Harvey, I 22 

### appreciate your comments, and obviously we haveEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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### perhaps different thoughts on what the test procedure 2 

### at this stage should contain. But I think the key 3 

### point of my comment is when you get to trying to 4 

### really addressing this next level of standard, we 5 

### need to know what the test procedure will be, and 6 

### whether it's Harvey's version or Frank's version, we 7 

### need to know. 8 

### MR. SACHS: Do we have a deal for you. 9 

### (Laughter.) 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then I think we will 11 

### address the next slide. So for my part, I thank all 12 

### of you. We had a very productive day, and I'll turn 13 

### it back to Jim Raba. 14 

### MR. RABA: We conclude today's public 15 

### meeting with expressed appreciation from the U.S. 16 

### Department of Energy, it's for your participation, 17 

### both here live and the webinar. Thank you very much. 18 

### A very productive meeting, thank you. Very 19 

### productive, and informative. 20 

### We also thank our presenters, Rohit, Rupam 21 

### and Andrew, our facilitator Doug Brookman, and technical 22 

### crew backstage, Emily this morning and now Alex thisEnergy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

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## afternoon. Thank you very much. You made this 2 

## technically possible. 3 

## We look forward then to receiving your 4 

## written comments. Heard many comments here. I'd 5 

## like to see them in writing please and with data and 6 

## information most of all, and safe travels all. Thank 7 

## you very much. 8 

## (Whereupon, at 3:02 p.m., the meeting was 9 

## concluded.) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 213 **A a.m**  5:2 **abilities** 54:6 101:13 **ability** 97:17 **able** 10:13 59:18 86:12,12 96:9 104:12 107:22 123:12 136:7 139:6 140:4 153:11 159:22 165:3 ,22 **ABMA** 52:6 64:18 64:21 65:6 68:9 **ABMA's** 65:20 **absolute** 42:4 **absolutely** 16:9 34:1 108:22 131:8 204:19 **absorbed** 206:9 **AC** 37:8 **ACCA** 75:8 **accelerated** 121:22 122:6 **accept** 95:1 151:22 **acceptable** 160:19 **acceptance** 191:2 **access** 157:17 **accommodate** 120:9 **account** 52:12 74:2 75:20,21 78:14 86:17 117:2 119:9 120:16 122:16 184:10 185:1 ,19 186:19 **accounted** 118:18 143:9 166:1 180:14,15 184:14 186:8 **accounting** 180:5 **accounts** 77:20 78:4 78:9 89:9,18 91:7 91:15 164:8 **achieve** 205:9 **acronyms** 38:20 **act** 13:1 ,3 31:6 **action** 184:18 199:22 202:12,13 202:14 **active** 19:17 **activities** 16:6 **activity** 30:13 113:16 **acts** 12:21 13:6 **actual** 63:15 69:19 88:19,20 94:8 126:16 152:5 157:17 176:8

**Adam** 2:10 6:13 7:12 39:9,10 40:7 41:9 42:7 ,8,18 49:20,22 64:8 67:10,11 70:7 **Adam's** 52:18 **adapt** 189:11 **add** 42:17 51:16 68:17 110:14 118:4 159:12 200:19 **added** 56:7 ,9 190:14 **adders** 110:13 **adding** 125:15 **addition** 90:2 106:17 108:13 194:4 **additional** 17:5 ,14 27:5 ,6 28:2 32:8 50:11 55:15 56:7 56:9 59:12 61:8 75:18 78:18 82:5 83:8 ,9 100:8 101:22 104:2 119:19 120:7 124:16,19 128:1 129:4 130:6 140:16 144:14 148:9 162:10 172:2 183:6 186:13 189:22 190:6 192:1 ,21 193:13 196:6,21 206:12 **additive** 181:7 **address** 5:17 ,20 6:4 12:9 15:16 22:14 96:13 122:11 158:15 160:1 211:11 **addressed** 15:9,12 30:3 190:16 **addressing** 19:7 45:5 60:8 ,10 172:1 210:5 211:4 **adds** 54:7 ,8,19 100:18 **adjust** 86:16,22 99:17 **adjusted** 87:13 90:5 90:8 **adjustment** 86:14 86:15 87:8 **adjustments** 87:11 100:2

**Administration** 84:5 **admittedly** 195:11 209:15 **adopted** 200:12 204:15 **advance** 17:3 **advanced** 37:15 **advances** 37:17 **advent** 44:15 **adverse** 35:4,15 **adversely** 207:9 **advocates** 205:2 **AEDM** 22:16 **AEDMs** 22:10 191:5 ,7 **AEMTCA** 13:6 **AEO** 155:18 165:20 197:6 **affect** 53:15 206:3 **affiliation** 7:2 **afraid** 171:10 **after-market** 99:13 **afternoon** 212:1 **age** 84:22 148:12 **agency** 139:13 **agenda** 8:12,14 **aggregated** 168:4 **aggressive** 32:5 **ago** 25:17 31:21 34:13 39:16 49:1 53:20 54:4 107:8 114:6 150:9 159:9 160:17 180:10 **agree** 16:21 ,21 26:21 27:2 126:22 **agreement** 83:4 **ahead** 21:17 33:9 67:10 81:16 107:3 108:7 114:11 135:22 141:15 200:17 206:15 209:21 **AHRI** 16:2 25:14 29:2,17 ,18 30:18 31:18 32:10 41:5 59:20 63:7 78:2 85:15 ,15 86:4 88:6 91:3 100:9 105:14 108:16 109:17 114:13 140:18 149:22 157:21 158:11 ,22 161:13 165:8 166:4 175:19 176:6,17 195:10

201:2 209:13 210:10,12,19 **air** 2:6 7:8 10:6 23:12,19 75:3 ,7 130:22 131:1 ,21 193:2 **air-atomized** 24:20 **Alex** 2:17 6:13 7:22 78:6 122:11 ,12 170:19 180:1 ,3 ,14 184:7 ,9 207:17 ,18 211:22 **algebraic** 191:12 **Allen** 2:21 6:13 7:20 7:20 186:16,16 **allow** 119:7 191:10 **allowable** 22:3 **allowing** 78:13 **Alright** 205:12 **altered** 188:8 190:12 **alternating** 95:12 **alternative** 22:17 ,20 203:15 204:4,21 **alternatives** 199:19 199:21 200:12,15 201:16 202:5 **altogether** 205:21 **amended** 13:6 116:10 168:6 187:1 188:8 189:5 189:14 190:8 ,12 197:3 **America** 75:7 **American** 2:19 3:4 7:10 45:3 188:19 **amount** 46:8 116:19 126:11 141:21 182:20 **analogous** 49:7 **analyses** 5:21 ,22 9:7 63:16,18 67:12 141:18 171:19 193:22 194:3 ,5 ,5 196:7 202:1 ,22 207:1 **analysis** 1:3 4:8 ,10 5:7 ,18 ,19 9:1 ,2,11 9:11 ,14 11:12 12:16 14:14,21 15:4,7 ,10,12,13 15:15 ,17 ,19 17:4 17:9,17 ,20 19:22 23:6 26:22 27:2 27:14 28:19 34:20 34:21 36:16,17 ,20

36:21 ,22 37:1 ,1 ,3 37:6,9 38:1 43:6 43:17 44:7 45:17 55:19 57:21 58:20 58:21 59:4,11 ,14 60:1 61:3 63:9 66:5 67:13 69:4 72:8 ,16,18,19 73:1 ,6,7 ,10 74:12 74:14,21 75:8 76:2 79:19 84:4,9 84:10 87:21 88:2 89:5 ,18 91:7 ,21 105:19 106:8 ,18 113:16 114:21 ,22 116:8 ,9,10 117:2 117:2,7 ,8,13 118:17 124:1 125:7 126:21 132:10 143:10 145:2,9 148:11 154:22 156:7 ,11 156:21 160:3 162:11 ,14,17 ,18 162:22 163:2,4,4 163:5 ,6,7 ,18,19 164:2 165:9 166:3 166:11 ,15 ,21 167:4,18 170:20 172:5 173:10 174:1 177:12,16 181:11 ,21 182:2 184:10,14,22 185:4 186:15 ,18 186:19,21 ,21 187:3 ,9,11 188:3 188:5 189:13 ,20 190:1 193:20,21 194:7 ,7 ,8,8,9,10 194:11 ,13 ,19 196:8 ,9,14,21 197:1 ,2,20 198:3 198:4,6,13 ,16,18 198:20,20,22 199:1 ,2,5 ,9,15 ,17 199:17 200:5 ,13 200:21 202:4,18 205:20 **analyze** 196:9 202:13 **analyzed** 20:14 **analyzing** 39:16 40:16 52:14 **and/or** 12:7 25:6 **Andhare** 2:8 6:13Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 214 12:13 ,18 17:18 21:9 23:5 25:3 26:19 27:7 28:3 34:10,19 36:15 37:21 40:8 43:10 46:7 48:20 55:18 60:22 62:21 64:4 64:11 66:19 70:5 **Andrew** 2:21 6:13 7:20 186:16 211:21 **anecdotal** 51:8 183:2 **anecdotally** 102:11 105:9 127:12 **animal** 97:14 **announced** 177:10 **annual** 44:4 83:15 83:19,20 89:5 91:22 92:1 ,5 ,13 116:15 117:9,15 117:16,16,16,19 117:20,22 143:9 146:12,13 ,15 154:13 155:17 156:10 163:2 164:11 ,12 173:8 173:12,13 174:8 174:10,11 178:20 179:1 ,12 208:7 ,9 **answer** 16:12 31:14 42:19 90:18 100:5 109:22 153:12 162:6 180:21 **answered** 77:21 109:18 **answers** 112:11 135:17 153:9,11 **anti-backsliding** 22:5 **anticipate** 27:16 **anybody** 8:16 11:14 140:14 203:3 **anymore** 97:2 **anyway** 147:2 **apartment** 138:8 147:9 **apologize** 41:6 203:13 **appears** 106:7 181:19,20 182:1 **Appendix** 149:5 156:22 167:3 177:19 **appliance** 3:7 6:15 164:20,20 183:6 **appliances** 149:2

179:17 180:12 205:22 206:2 **application** 93:22 113:10 182:12 204:11 **applications** 13:16 31:11 33:13 49:14 103:10 107:16 113:18 ,20 114:4 **applied** 73:13 ,17 118:2 153:8 156:4 156:10 165:1 178:12 203:22 **applies** 109:5 123:22 151:15 175:21 181:19 194:21 **apply** 81:6 86:14,16 87:10 119:13 132:11 150:5 155:9,11 183:5 **applying** 170:6 198:8 **appreciate** 28:15 ,18 63:7 111:8 113:3 120:1 140:15 169:5 ,18 171:9 177:8 183:9 201:15 205:17 210:22 **appreciation** 62:6 211:15 **approach** 33:12 46:11 ,16,17 48:17 57:5 76:16 80:4 113:5 157:2 185:2 199:12 204:15 **approaches** 102:12 198:1 **appropriate** 31:20 33:12 71:15 73:6 76:9 157:5 167:22 181:15 201:8 **appropriateness** 25:7 59:9 **approximately** 77:11 **area** 33:10 54:19 93:19 103:10 140:8 153:7 210:10 **areas** 33:15 138:16 154:21 **Armstrong** 2:22 16:12,15 ,16,21 28:20 31:12 52:3

**Army** 62:11 **arrangement** 137:13 138:9 139:14 **arrangements** 110:7 **arrive** 9:16 **article** 34:13 127:2 **Ashley** 2:22 16:15 16:16 17:13 28:22 31:17 52:2,3 68:12 **ASHRAE** 30:3 ,16 31:18 32:14 34:13 105:7 109:1 ,6 126:4 203:16 210:9,19 **aside** 101:4 **asking** 34:6 62:1 78:9 126:14 128:13 133:3 135:10 153:9 **asks** 60:18 69:18 178:20 **asparagus** 31:18 **aspect** 103:13 ,15 104:21 149:20 **assemble** 194:21 **assembly** 58:8 ,9,11 61:5 **assertion** 183:21 **assess** 83:16 198:4 **assessed** 89:4 **assesses** 187:18 194:19 **assessing** 199:12 **assessment** 9:1 15:19 17:19,21 ,22 24:22 28:5 ,9 33:15 186:20 **Assessment/Scree ...**  4:8 17:17 **asset** 156:17 **assist** 190:7 **associated** 111:18 164:3 186:7 207:6 **association** 2:5 3:5 7:7 45:4 55:3 60:9 164:21 **associations** 18:5 **assume** 79:20 85:4 85:13 86:1 ,13 90:1 121:16,17 122:3 124:6,14,17 144:15 145:4 **assumed** 88:9 91:16

120:19 143:12 176:19 **assumes** 123:4,7 ,13 123:16 143:14,16 144:2,5 145:9 148:13 ,17 166:9 166:14,20 174:20 175:8 **assuming** 50:20 111:6 151:21 **assumption** 179:12 **assumptions** 6:3 **assure** 61:18 **assuring** 21:14 **atmospheric** 159:6 159:7 ,14,19 **atomizer** 23:11 ,12 **attempt** 168:17 **attending** 5:14 **attributable** 179:13 **attuned** 104:2 **audible** 142:12 **authorities** 204:16 **authority** 8:21 12:21 39:19 **auto** 81:10 **auxiliary** 84:1 **availability** 176:8 **available** 22:9 40:12 61:16 62:9,14 66:17 67:2 80:19 110:2 164:19 168:5 171:5 195:16,21 196:2 **AVENUE** 1:9 **average** 20:11 47:19 48:13 56:17 56:22 57:16 67:1 71:3 76:3 ,3 ,5 86:6 86:8 ,9 87:3 89:5 ,8 92:1 ,1 113:10 150:9 154:11 ,18 154:22 155:9,10 155:17 ,22 156:16 161:8 168:22 **averaged** 48:13 **avoid** 60:10 **aware** 65:5 113:17 136:14 **awareness** 3:7 114:5 **awful** 113:16 127:13 **awfully** 160:15 **B b**  56:11 ,14 105:8

123:5 **back** 13:9 14:11 16:18 21:6 26:17 28:21 31:3 43:2 53:13 54:10 61:22 94:15 102:5 125:2 125:12 130:20 132:18 ,19 137:1 142:6,10 143:5 153:2 177:3 179:10 181:16,17 181:18 183:10 201:5 202:1 203:8 211:13 **background** 4:7 12:14,17 66:10 67:2 113:4 **backs** 186:4 **backstage** 211:22 **backup** 94:19 95:4 95:6 102:8 104:15 **backwards** 86:8 161:20 **bad** 108:17 **badge** 71:20 142:3 **ball** 210:20 **Baltimore** 5:11 **BAS** 102:18 **base** 62:11 133:14 157:15 ,18 160:6 163:16,21 173:9 173:21 174:4,14 174:18 175:1 ,4 200:9 **base-case** 172:12 **baseboard** 133:22 **based** 14:3 ,8 15:1 18:13 ,15 ,18 ,20 19:21 20:13 ,17 ,19 20:21 35:21 37:9 38:8 42:6,9 44:3 ,7 46:8 ,18 48:6 56:8 56:10,13 58:7 73:5 74:18 ,21 75:2,6,10,12 76:13 78:22 79:6 84:4 85:14,16 86:3 ,11 ,15 88:8 89:4 91:3 99:15 107:11 121:16 123:21 133:20 137:3 143:13 144:8 ,13 ,22 145:1 148:18 154:12 155:14 156:1 ,5Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 215 157:20 164:22 165:7 ,11 166:3 ,22 168:15 175:19 176:16 177:12,18 179:5 ,17 ,19 182:2 183:2 191:11 204:5 208:2 **baseline** 27:22 38:4 38:6,7 ,19 40:19 40:20,21 47:9,10 47:16,16 54:21 73:2,12,13 ,13 ,14 74:1 ,4 76:3 155:11 161:17 181:3 ,6,9 **baselines** 38:12 **basement** 138:6,10 **basements** 137:8 **basic** 23:8 24:10 118:16 119:13 **basically** 50:2 66:1 68:7 69:6 78:13 81:5 132:20 161:7 169:15 171:1 **basing** 195:8 **basis** 39:16 88:1 143:15 177:6 195:15 **bearing** 159:3 **belabor** 209:15 **believe** 16:19 106:1 114:21 143:6 158:22 170:20 209:18 **beneficial** 159:11 **benefit** 26:6 52:17 127:8 151:10 204:8 **benefits** 27:17 164:3 197:13 ,15 ,15 **Berkeley** 2:11 ,17 6:10 7:22 8:3 72:11 **best** 32:4 69:16 **better** 38:15 86:19 86:19,20 94:5 96:3 104:19 132:2 135:16,17 152:10 172:1 209:1 **beyond** 68:22 85:16 160:18 164:17 166:10 **bid** 128:21 **bidding** 126:15 **bids** 129:1 **big** 71:4 104:21 113:3 131:20 134:1 ,7 ,11 142:5 167:13 177:1 **bigger** 148:4 **biggest** 192:7 203:21 **bill** 113:8 **bins** 93:10 101:18 **bit** 31:13 54:10 65:16 67:14 70:10 70:14 87:12 107:8 137:5 143:4 152:15 170:17 171:10 176:7 195:11 201:5 ,14 **blank** 33:9 **blower** 23:15 **blowing** 152:8 **blue** 167:13 ,13 **board** 82:22 152:21 **boiler** 3:4 13:11 ,12 13:13 18:8 ,11 19:17 23:8 24:10 24:12 26:3 ,10 45:4,8,18 47:14 50:8 53:20 54:11 58:4 64:21 65:3 ,4 67:6 68:2 70:18 75:1 76:17 80:5 81:22 83:16,17 ,20 84:12,13 ,16 85:2 85:3 ,4,10,11 ,17 85:18 ,19 86:2,13 87:15 88:15 ,16,17 88:20,22 89:2,6 90:2 91:1 ,8,13 ,15 92:7 93:1 ,6,8,13 93:19 94:6,19,21 95:4,13 ,15 ,17 ,19 96:5 ,14 97:2 99:11 ,19 100:4,15 101:17 102:9,10 103:3 110:5 ,9,10 110:12,17 ,22 112:8 ,15 ,19 115:9 115:16,18 116:3 117:3 ,20 118:1 ,11 119:17 ,20 120:5 120:10,12,20,21 121:15 123:3 ,21 123:21 124:4,9,11 124:15 ,18 125:12 125:15 ,19 126:12 127:7 ,8,9 128:8 128:15 ,20 130:4 131:7 ,12,12,17 ,20 132:21 133:4,5

134:10,11 ,21 136:4,6,9 137:4,9 137:12,15 139:2 139:11 ,17 140:22 140:22 141:4,9 143:21 144:2,21 145:19 146:4,12 147:1 ,16 148:4,11 148:13 ,14,18,20 149:9 150:13 151:15 152:18 153:10 158:4 160:4 163:3 ,9 164:15 ,18 ,18 165:1 ,2,3 ,4 166:13 ,17 ,17 ,18 166:19 167:15 168:3 ,7 169:8 ,9 169:10 175:18 182:3 ,9,12,13 ,15 188:10 208:10 **boiler's** 134:7 **boiler-** 93:14 **boiler-based** 32:17 **boiler-sizing** 92:22 **boilers** 1:4 5:7 ,17 6:7 11:13 13:20 14:8 ,19 19:1 ,8,9 19:19 20:17 ,20,22 21:2,8,15 ,18 24:4 25:9 33:17 ,20 35:16 39:7 41:2 44:1 45:11 46:1 46:22 47:3 ,5 ,8 50:12,13 51:9 53:1 54:13 55:5 56:1 ,15 ,17 57:9 59:13 ,19 62:5 ,9 64:3 65:5 66:12 67:7 68:22 70:14 71:4 76:10 79:12 79:20,21 81:6,16 84:4 85:6,7 90:13 90:15 ,16,20,21 91:19 92:8 ,13 93:1 ,3 ,5 95:7 ,9,11 96:13 97:11 ,13 99:15 ,21 100:19 101:5 102:13 103:14 104:14 106:16,20 107:19 108:1 ,12,14 110:6 112:1 ,14 113:14 115:4,4,8 118:17 118:20 121:1 ,8,11 122:20,22 123:10

123:15 124:3 125:3 ,4,9 126:6 127:15 128:3 ,4,6 131:10 132:13 137:2 139:4,10,16 139:18 140:1 ,8,10 140:21 143:14,17 144:11 ,11 ,12,12 144:15 145:10,16 145:18 ,22,22,22 146:1 ,13 ,19,20 147:21 ,22 148:4,6 149:8 ,11 ,13 150:3 150:7 ,10 152:4,8 152:11 ,14,20 157:3 ,15 158:8 ,17 161:4 163:13 164:13 165:6,6,7 165:16 166:12,12 168:18 ,22 169:16 169:22 170:7 172:7 174:14 175:9,11 ,14,15 176:9 177:5 184:12 187:3 188:15 ,16 189:8 195:13 204:9 206:17 208:7 209:3 ,20 **book** 144:10,22 **bottom** 20:20 28:5 40:13 167:8 **bought** 51:20 **bow** 33:10 **box** 11:22 35:7 61:8 **boxes** 12:1 40:14 78:18 83:8 192:1 **break** 9:2,5 ,12 53:16 71:13 ,15 ,18 141:19 142:1 **breakdowns** 168:2 **breaking** 148:1 **brief** 8:12,16 11:15 **bring** 16:7 203:5 **brings** 189:16 **broadcasting** 10:17 **broader** 178:22 179:4 **broke** 126:7 **Brookman** 2:2 5:4 5:10 6:17 ,20,22 8:7 11:18 15:22 16:13 ,15 17:13 ,16 21:4,19 22:15 ,18 22:22 23:4 25:2 25:10 26:17 27:4

27:8 28:1 32:8 33:5 34:8 ,18 36:9 36:13 37:20 39:3 39:9 40:1 ,3 ,6 42:7 43:3 ,9 44:22 49:15 52:1 53:13 55:1 ,12,14,17 59:16 60:14,17 61:6,13 ,17 ,20 62:20 63:22 64:14 66:20 67:10,19 69:2,7 ,13 ,17 70:1 70:4 71:5 ,8,17 72:5 ,12 76:21 77:11 ,22 78:8 ,17 80:2,15 ,18 81:2 82:7 ,11 83:2,7 ,11 90:9 91:5 92:16 92:20 93:14 94:10 96:12 100:7 101:15 ,21 102:2 103:11 105:3 ,13 106:13 ,22 107:5 108:5 ,9 109:15 ,20 111:12 112:12 113:12 114:11 115:5 116:4 119:2 119:21 121:5 ,20 122:5 ,12,18 124:21 125:22 127:11 ,19 128:9 129:2,6 131:4 133:15 134:16,22 135:4,19,22 136:18 137:1 ,21 138:22 139:7 140:5 ,13 141:15 143:3 146:8 ,18 147:15 148:8 149:21 151:1 ,4 152:1 ,22 153:15 154:7 ,10 157:4 158:10 160:8 ,11 160:20 161:5 ,12 162:10,13 168:8 170:11 171:8 172:2 176:2 178:16,19 179:3 ,7 180:8 ,17 181:10 181:16 184:5 ,7 ,15 185:8 ,11 186:12 191:22 192:20 193:13 ,16 195:7 196:5 197:22 200:16,20 202:21Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 216 203:9,11 204:12 205:10 206:11 207:17 208:18 209:12 211:10,21 **brought** 13:1 ,4 103:1 **BSRIA** 55:2 61:16 **BTS-2000** 33:11 **Btu** 21:18 49:5 50:7 50:13 53:20 54:4 64:9 65:3 ,4 97:22 112:19 **BTUs** 45:9,12 46:5 51:10,10 98:1 134:4 **buddy** 126:19 **building** 1:8 5:9 55:2 62:11 75:11 84:8 ,11 ,14,18 ,19 85:1 ,1 ,3 ,12,18 ,22 86:2,4,12,17 ,18 86:21 87:8 ,14 89:19 90:7 93:2 94:18 ,19,22 95:14 96:1 101:3 ,8 110:22 111:5 ,7 ,20 112:10 121:17 131:2 137:22 138:5 ,11 142:3 151:21 156:4 165:19,21 168:19 169:10 182:8 ,9,18 183:3 186:5 199:7 **building's** 141:4 156:5 **building-based** 31:11 **buildings** 32:15 33:13 34:15 62:3 84:5 ,6,7 89:20 90:1 95:7 ,8 109:6 114:5 117:5 121:18 125:9 131:14,17 134:18 134:19 138:8 140:9 147:10 155:1 165:15 ,17 168:15 ,21 183:5 183:13 ,15 ,20 196:18 203:17 ,17 204:1 ,6,7 **built** 52:15 86:4,12 86:18 121:17 **built-to-order** 52:9 **bulk** 187:10 200:3 **bullet** 21:6 **bunch** 71:3 126:15

**burden** 188:1 190:11 ,15 192:5 192:17 **burdens** 191:2 **burdensome** 188:12 **burner** 24:19 25:17 26:2 35:13 ,14 38:16,17 87:16,17 91:13 ,15 **burners** 23:17 ,17 23:19 24:20,20 27:11 ,12,18,21 28:2,4,7 35:12 65:21 **business** 73:16 96:10 113:4 128:22 161:4 189:7 ,18 192:5 ,8 192:16 **businesses** 189:6 192:2 **buttons** 210:8 **buy** 51:21 81:15 104:7 152:17 **buy-sell** 81:15 **buying** 44:13 54:7 71:3 104:5 **buys** 75:19 **C C**  5:1 56:11 ,16 **cable** 99:22 **Cadillacs** 49:7 **cafeteria** 142:5 **calculate** 47:11 48:14 57:16 59:7 86:14 172:18 **calculated** 58:15 74:5 ,10 83:16 89:8 118:12 163:21 165:13 166:22 172:22 173:2,3 177:17 179:14 200:11 **calculates** 73:5 91:8 91:12 117:4 156:15 163:16 **calculation** 162:4 173:11 174:7 177:13 **calculations** 97:8 173:7 **calibration** 50:17 **call** 68:22 78:14 140:14 **called** 84:6,7 94:6

97:10 **calling** 153:9 **candidate** 53:21 **cap** 66:2 68:10 **capability** 31:8 129:16 **capacities** 22:8 43:19 44:5 ,17 ,18 52:14 79:9 130:10 132:11 **capacity** 13:14 19:2 21:7 28:14 43:21 44:13 ,14 45:10,19 47:2,3 ,7 50:18 51:5 52:13 53:22 76:14 79:1 85:17 87:15 ,18 88:15 93:21 102:21 103:21 123:20 128:18 131:7 132:4 140:22 141:12 187:22 189:3 198:12,14 **capital** 156:17 ,17 189:2,10 **capture** 93:12 **car** 51:20 **carbon** 197:10,16 **care** 99:7 193:4 **careful** 103:9 112:7 115:22 **Carlo** 117:1 **carry** 37:5 ,22 103:22 185:12 **case** 23:10 38:6 82:15 91:10 94:20 95:16 96:2 99:10 103:1 ,2 113:10 119:4 157:16,18 160:6 163:21 ,22 169:18 ,20 172:13 172:19,21 173:9,9 173:22,22 174:4,4 174:15 ,16,18 ,20 175:1 ,1 ,4 196:1 200:9 202:16 **case-study** 127:17 **cases** 132:2,9 **cash** 187:15 **cast** 24:2 31:18 153:20 **casting** 33:9 **catalogue** 99:5 112:21 **categories** 20:14,15 **categorization** 136:16 **categorized** 56:10 **category** 131:14 136:6,10 **caters** 46:11 **caution** 29:6 45:17 46:6 **cautious** 82:21 **CBEC** 84:19 85:12 87:2,6 **CBECs** 84:7 89:19 105:16,18,20 143:13 ,19 154:12 165:17 **CC&E** 21:14 **CCE** 55:9 **cell** 10:6 **census** 75:10,12 156:4 **center** 138:21 **certain** 34:22 94:18 95:14 99:6 112:22 113:1 122:16 123:13 125:5 132:10 137:22,22 138:1 **certainly** 26:21 32:11 42:16 49:11 51:8 ,15 ,18 54:6 60:2 66:15 69:15 77:18 94:12 96:7 98:6,17 101:1 103:14 108:19 110:1 130:7 133:17 135:13 146:11 153:17 154:4 158:12 160:16 170:5 ,8 191:2 205:1 208:20 209:17 210:2 **certification** 21:12 139:13 140:2 **CFR** 15:2 **challenges** 21:14 34:14 41:21 43:6 **challenging** 188:14 **chance** 85:2 154:6 **change** 44:19 45:19 50:4 60:4 70:11 73:19,20 95:6 129:9 137:3 148:3 148:4,5 ,6 155:22 198:10,12,14 199:10 201:8 ,12 **changeout** 109:9

**changeouts** 205:8 **changes** 37:14 134:20 136:10 155:17 199:8 **changing** 185:14 **channel** 74:6 75:15 75:18 76:13 78:10 78:22 **channels** 74:6,14,16 75:17 76:9,12 78:19,20 164:6 **chapter** 20:9 44:6,7 47:21 59:4,4,11 161:11 177:22 185:1 ,7 **chapters** 14:14 15:1 **characterization** 4:9 9:6 72:7 ,9,15 83:15 92:4 116:7 **characterize** 5:20 53:17 67:21 69:10 71:10 92:12 158:3 187:5 **characterized** 72:21 **charged** 82:3 **chart** 20:11 ,19 66:7 67:4 84:21 85:5 ,6 85:20 91:20 117:6 145:3 167:4,5 175:17 176:4 **charts** 20:9 59:3 **chases** 138:15 **check** 177:3 **checked** 8:11 **checks** 65:18 **chime** 39:20 **chimneys** 123:7 137:17 **choice** 34:16 115:13 **choices** 112:18 **choosing** 31:10 34:15 **chores** 152:6 **chose** 43:22 **Chuck** 2:4 7:4 51:7 52:1 53:13 76:21 76:22 79:2 80:6,7 89:10 96:12,15 ,18 100:10 101:2 103:11 ,12 109:20 109:21 112:4,12 112:13 114:12 119:2,3 121:5 ,6 129:6,7 133:15 ,16 135:1 ,5 137:5 ,6Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 217 146:9,10 149:12 157:6 **Chuck's** 132:20 **circling** 54:10 **circulates** 110:9,10 **circulating** 91:9 108:21 ,21 109:14 112:16 **circulators** 110:21 **claims** 126:18 **clarification** 50:15 **clarify** 39:19 50:1 52:4 64:2 180:2 **class** 20:1 ,3 ,6,7 ,13 20:18 42:21 43:22 44:1 47:2 49:8 50:18 54:4 57:9 57:10,13 59:2,8 63:1 ,2,4 64:12 78:22 85:18 ,19 86:6 160:3 161:10 163:22 168:4 170:15 172:19,20 190:18 194:13 ,14 209:5 **classes** 13:22 14:1 ,2 14:6 18:1 ,13 ,14 19:21 25:9 26:15 38:21 39:6,11 ,14 39:16,20 40:16 44:18 46:10,12,18 46:19 48:1 ,3 ,7 51:17 55:21 57:4 57:7 ,22 58:22 64:6 76:3 88:2,5 91:22 144:18 148:16 165:5 167:9 175:22 176:1 178:4 179:6 183:19 194:18 ,19 **classification** 18:16 **classified** 14:8 19:20 46:10 56:13 **classify** 25:8 **classifying** 14:2 56:8 190:21 **clear** 167:10 171:18 **Clearinghouse** 75:13 **clearly** 202:12 **client** 138:17 **climate** 33:13 88:21 89:6 104:1 **climb** 65:17 **close** 51:2 72:12 210:3 **closely** 49:11

**closest** 60:7 171:1 **closing** 9:16 206:12 **closure** 203:4 **CO2** 197:14,15 **coal** 49:9 **code** 7:5 204:15 **coffee** 71:21 142:9 **cognizant** 136:5 **coil** 134:2 **coils** 134:2 **colder** 129:16 **colleagues** 31:3 **collect** 59:22 **collected** 154:19 **collecting** 41:3 **colleges** 107:18 **colors** 167:8 **combinations** 41:14 81:8 **combine** 87:6,13 ,17 **combined** 173:4 **combustion** 24:15 25:6 26:9 88:3 ,7 ,9 130:22 131:2 197:10 **come** 16:22 27:10 29:9 51:1 56:19 60:7 63:18 79:16 79:17 99:9 139:13 169:16 **comes** 22:11 61:4 85:11 105:22 106:10 **coming** 71:2 **commend** 55:7 **comment** 24:22 25:4,4,7 ,11 36:3 ,8 40:2 49:1 ,16,17 49:18 50:6 53:7 59:5 ,6,9 61:7 64:16 77:9 78:18 80:21 81:4 82:8 83:8 90:9 92:17 102:2 103:13 107:1 ,2,7 ,15 108:6 115:5 ,7 121:21 124:22 125:5 129:5 146:11 ,16 157:6,7 159:21 160:13 171:4,6 177:9 181:14 189:17 190:5 192:1 195:11 200:17 201:21 203:3 211:3

**commenting** 171:4 **comments** 6:1 11:1 11:15 12:2,5 ,7 ,8 14:15 16:9 22:13 25:15 32:8 36:7 ,9 55:7 ,15 60:4,14 60:17 64:1 69:9 69:16 71:11 76:7 76:8 ,10,15 83:8 92:3 101:22 109:11 116:5 127:20 132:20 140:15 145:12,14 149:6,7 152:14 157:1 158:14 162:10 167:20,21 168:10 172:3 178:16 180:18 185:3 186:13 189:18 ,22 192:21 193:13 197:18 199:11 200:22 202:21 203:4 206:12,20 210:22 212:4,4 **commercial** 1:4 5:7 5:17 6:7 11:12 13:4,11 ,12,15 ,19 14:18 18:8 19:1 ,8 19:18 21:8 25:9 32:1 ,15 34:15 53:1 55:5 67:6 75:1 ,11 76:10,17 76:19 79:12 80:5 81:6 84:6 92:13 93:8 100:15 101:17 106:16,19 108:12,13 112:1 113:20 114:20 115:2,4,8 117:3 120:1 125:9 139:3 139:4 140:7 ,8,21 140:21 145:16 148:12 149:8 150:4 155:1 ,19 156:14,15 ,15 157:3 ,15 158:4,7 158:18 163:3 ,9,13 164:13 ,14 165:2,2 165:4 168:3 ,7 169:17 ,22 170:7 172:6 187:2 188:9 188:14,16 189:8 195:13 196:10,18 201:11 **Commission** 74:22

**committed** 191:9 **committee** 29:1 ,9 29:10,11 105:7 **committees** 210:9 210:10 **common** 38:11 119:15 123:6,14 123:16,18 139:2,8 139:17 141:7 ,8 144:14 197:9,10 **common-vent** 140:1 **commonly** 22:4 40:12 79:21 95:10 105:10 139:4,19 140:7 ,20 **communicate** 99:20 **community** 31:5 33:9 127:1 ,4,10 127:17 128:13 **companies** 45:22 56:8 75:2 82:15 82:18 153:10 189:9 **company** 6:18 156:19 208:10 **comparable** 44:17 **compared** 51:11 54:20 147:3 165:16 181:3 ,6,8 189:11 196:12 199:19 **comparing** 44:13 **comparison** 50:3 ,5 **comparisons** 55:4 209:9 **compendia** 61:16 **competent** 147:8 **competition** 187:22 209:8 **competitors** 189:11 **complain** 94:6 **complete** 10:4 13:10 161:9,10 **completely** 45:20 50:12 125:8 186:6 **completes** 24:21 **complex** 62:16 101:11 102:19 **complexities** 62:7 **complexity** 29:22 52:9 **Compliance** 21:12 **complicated** 113:11 **component** 128:17 141:13 145:2,5 ,5 174:13

**components** 18:7 23:7 ,8 58:7 84:1 ,2 91:13 118:15 119:11 144:20 **comprehensive** 98:13 **concentrated** 63:4 **concentration** 24:15 **concept** 97:10 141:6 181:22 191:3 **conceptual** 37:17 **conceptually** 111:21 **concern** 70:20 93:20 113:4 150:1 183:9 **concerned** 102:9 171:17 **concerns** 11:3 22:13 22:14 206:14 **concise** 10:5 **conclude** 211:14 **concluded** 212:9 **Concluding** 203:6 **conclusions** 159:1 **condensate** 91:19 118:16 123:11 124:2,3 ,6,8,9,10 124:12,13 ,19 144:17 151:19 **condensating** 125:3 **condensation** 123:2 123:2,13 **condense** 123:10 125:16 182:14 **condenser** 185:21 **condensing** 20:22 26:10 28:7 40:22 41:2,21 42:4 43:5 55:5 ,19 56:1 ,5 57:3 ,14,16 66:12 67:6 89:7 91:19 118:17 ,21 120:10 120:12,20,21 121:1 ,8,11 ,15 123:9,15 124:3 ,4 124:11 ,15 ,17 ,18 125:15 126:6 127:8 ,9 128:3 ,5 130:18 132:21 136:13 ,14 139:10 139:16 140:1 ,10 140:11 144:15 146:6 149:10,15 149:16,17 150:3 150:10,14 152:20Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 218 153:4,14,21 154:2 158:17 159:2 175:9,11 ,18 ,21 176:9 177:1 ,5 182:12,22 183:6 184:12,13 185:17 185:18 188:19,21 203:18 ,20 204:9 204:11 205:22 206:2,17 ,21 207:6 207:13 ,14,21 208:14,15 209:3 **condensing-design** 120:5 **condensing/non-c ...**  159:20 **condition** 107:22 136:7 **conditioner** 193:3 **Conditioning** 2:6 7:9 75:3 ,7 **conditions** 89:3 92:9 104:1 107:11 ,13 133:21 184:13 **conduct** 189:12 196:7 198:15 **conducted** 187:3 **conducts** 187:9 **confidence** 51:6 **confident** 158:16 193:9 **configurations** 111:10 **confronted** 21:22 **conjecture** 130:7 **connect** 99:14,21 **connected** 97:10,16 98:3 **connecting** 119:17 119:17 **connections** 101:8 **conscious** 120:14 **consensus** 31:5 **consequence** 199:4 199:11 **conservation** 1:2 5:6 13:2 19:13 32:15 38:8 73:3 73:22 163:10,15 172:6 187:1 197:3 199:4,20 **conservative** 70:10 **consider** 27:22 31:15 ,16 68:21 77:10 85:9 99:1 110:4 135:6 196:17 198:1

200:7 207:22 **consideration** 42:16 107:10 175:2,6 177:9 180:10 185:15 187:6,21 188:4 205:21 **considerations** 118:19 **considered** 35:20 75:16,16 76:9 77:8 79:8 87:9 88:11 125:7 160:5 177:21 178:4 199:22 203:14,15 **considering** 22:7 39:5 80:12 106:22 120:7 205:15 **considers** 15:8 75:18 91:18 164:5 197:12 **consistent** 70:17 **consistently** 37:14 **consists** 194:17 **consolidated** 44:11 **constituents** 18:7 **construct** 41:13 **construction** 74:17 75:11 ,17 ,22 118:22 119:14,15 123:8 124:5 164:7 165:14 166:1 168:12,14 169:8 **Consulting** 2:8 ,10 2:21 6:11 7:13 ,21 **consumed** 19:16 31:1 89:18 **consumer** 72:21 73:2,8,20 75:19 76:19 80:13 83:13 116:11 ,13 ,14 117:10,12 143:11 144:20 155:2 194:6 196:8 ,9,13 196:16 200:1 ,2 **consumers** 15:11 116:20 155:3 157:9,12 163:9 196:10 **consumption** 19:16 83:15 ,19,21 85:21 90:7 91:8 ,9 92:13 108:20 116:1 154:19 173:12,14 205:14,16 **contain** 211:2 **contend** 22:6

**content** 9:4 11:19 141:21 **context** 200:19 205:9 **continue** 27:14 188:22 **continued** 9:11 158:17 **continues** 30:19 166:9,10,14,20 **contractor** 51:9 63:13 74:9,10 75:6,9,10 81:18 94:6 98:15 101:5 101:5 ,7 **contractor's** 80:10 **contractors** 2:5 7:6 37:5 43:11 57:20 73:11 75:7 97:7 98:21 115:10 128:21 135:7 145:21 146:17 **contracts** 209:1 **contradicts** 184:1 **contribute** 19:15 **contributing** 162:1 **contribution** 192:7 **control** 94:5 100:4 100:17 ,21 101:4,7 112:3 **controlled** 93:6 95:10 96:13 112:1 **controlling** 100:18 103:7 **controls** 32:17 33:4 81:8 99:11 109:7 **convection** 24:5 **convention** 152:14 **conventional** 152:4 152:11 ,18 **conversation** 67:16 102:5 173:15 183:10 **conversations** 10:8 **conversion** 126:19 177:14 183:12 **conversions** 191:12 **convert** 73:7 127:5 **converted** 183:16 **converting** 58:3 192:17 **cooler** 129:18 **Cooling** 7:6 **copper** 20:19 24:3 ,3 153:20 **corner** 16:18

**correct** 151:12 181:4,8 182:1 204:20 **correctly** 82:13 **correlate** 147:15 **correlation** 196:2 **corrosive** 151:18 **cost** 15:12 36:22 37:14 49:7 51:21 52:11 54:8 55:4 63:15 65:12,12,13 66:6 72:16 73:1 ,1 73:2,6 74:2 116:8 116:9,13 ,14,15 117:7 ,9,10,16,21 118:5 ,6,10,11 119:16,19 124:6 125:17 143:10,10 143:11 144:15 ,19 144:19 145:15 146:8 ,16 148:11 151:8 153:12 155:8 156:11 ,16 159:8 161:2,16,17 161:18 ,22 162:2 162:18 ,22 163:3 167:6,12 170:22 172:16,21 173:18 173:19,20,21 174:2,3 ,8,9,11 ,11 174:17 178:21 179:3 ,13 ,16 180:6 180:6,11 ,12 190:1 195:3 205:20 206:5 ,9 207:6 **cost-benefit** 177:11 **cost-effective** 43:7 **costing-out** 126:15 **costs** 60:20 61:2 69:19,21 70:8 73:5 ,16 74:2 76:14 116:15 ,16 116:22 117:11 ,14 117:16,17 ,18,19 118:12,16,18 119:13 120:8 121:21 122:5 126:8 ,12 127:14 128:19,20 143:8 ,9 144:8 ,10,13 ,18 ,21 145:1 ,16 146:6,11 153:3 155:5 ,5 156:11 ,12 157:15 164:3 168:2 171:13 183:17 185:15 186:7

193:21 197:16 209:3 ,7 **Council** 2:19 7:10 **Counsel** 6:14 **Counsel's** 7:14 **count** 68:2 **counterpart** 151:20 **couple** 114:9 168:9 193:5 **courier** 12:10 **course** 8:9 40:18 45:22 94:3 140:14 185:2 204:13 **cover** 39:18 ,19 90:15 ,19 137:3 141:21 161:6,21 **coverage** 14:18 16:6 39:17 40:5 105:1 **covered** 9:18 14:22 44:6 96:22 203:6 **covering** 154:5 194:18 **covers** 32:14 **CPB** 190:13 **crafting** 135:13 **create** 49:20 189:2 194:15 203:16 **created** 199:3 **creates** 187:4 **creating** 135:6 **credits** 200:2,2 **crew** 211:22 **criteria** 84:12,20 194:22 195:8 **criterias** 34:22 35:1 **critical** 11:2 **criticized** 184:2 **culmination** 30:12 **curious** 16:4 62:2,8 161:15 184:19 **curmudgeon** 44:10 **current** 12:22 13:19 18:22 27:13 28:11 35:21 ,22 38:8 39:13 93:13 103:22 125:13 149:17 157:19 158:4 **currently** 14:9 21:21 39:14 86:20 207:9 208:6 **curve** 47:20 57:11 98:12 **custom** 49:13 68:4,6 188:17Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 219 **customarily** 11:8 **customer** 46:3 54:5 63:14 101:12 120:4 170:2 **customers** 31:9 34:14 44:12 152:15 **cutoffs** 81:9 **cycle** 15:12 36:21 66:6 72:16 73:1 116:8 ,9 117:7 118:6 121:21 122:5 148:11 161:17 171:13 177:11 193:21 197:4 207:6 210:12 **cycles** 88:22 **Cymbalsky** 6:16 **D D**  4:1 5:1 **D.C** 1:10 5:8 **damage** 123:3 **Damodaran** 156:18 **damper** 24:9 58:11 **Darlington** 2:10 6:14 7:12,12 39:8 39:9,10,10 40:4 41:9,9,12 42:6,7 ,8 42:9 49:21 ,22 64:8 67:11 70:6 71:6 **data** 6:2,3 17:5 ,9,11 41:4 43:1 ,10,10 49:11 50:21 ,22 53:5 62:18 63:19 66:16 67:3 74:13 75:13 76:18 77:6 77:7 80:19 86:15 92:5 ,7 ,11 ,15 ,21 93:9,9,11 96:9 101:17 ,17 105:16 106:9 111:8 118:13 120:17 127:21 130:5 ,20 139:1 144:9,22 149:9 150:18 154:13 ,14,15 155:13 156:21 157:17 158:3 ,5 ,13 159:22 164:10,18 164:19,19 165:19 167:1 168:1 ,4 169:15 170:5 180:18 190:7 207:22 212:5

**database** 85:15 105:18 157:22 166:5 **databases** 86:5 **date** 31:6 106:1 **David** 2:13 **day** 9:15 72:2 99:4 104:9 114:2 129:11 133:8 153:11 211:12 **day-to-day** 152:6 **days** 54:4 86:22 87:1 ,3 94:3 132:22 **dead** 113:19 **deal** 21:11 30:8 48:20 151:18 211:8 **dealing** 18:5 45:13 46:3 62:15 170:1 **deals** 128:17 **debt** 156:19 **decade** 32:5 34:13 55:4 126:3 ,9 **decades** 193:6 210:11 **decays** 167:7 **December** 1:6 5:8 **decent** 183:17 **decide** 99:22 201:12 **decided** 120:4 **decimal** 99:4 **decision** 25:8 ,8 27:11 ,21 120:14 201:18 **decisions** 29:14 207:10 **decrease** 167:10 **decreases** 22:2 175:16 **decreasing** 166:8 ,18 **dedicate** 138:16 **defects** 27:12 34:17 193:10 **deficit** 32:2 **define** 43:20 **defines** 148:12 **defining** 112:7 148:22 196:15 **definitely** 51:18 **definition** 80:8 **definitions** 12:14 13:17 **definitive** 151:14 **degree** 86:22 87:1 ,3 125:14 133:6,7 ,8 158:7 ,14 **degrees** 88:17 ,18 89:14 182:11 ,19 182:21 183:5 **delay** 34:6 143:4 **delineating** 152:20 **delivering** 30:17 **delivers** 110:17 **demands** 25:18 **demonstrate** 54:8 **Department** 1:1 2:3 2:9,22 5:5 ,16 6:4 6:14 10:16 11:3 12:10 21:17 22:12 25:12 44:21 71:19 80:20 83:3 105:5 140:15 209:10 211:16 **depend** 133:4 **depending** 111:1 128:22 137:7 ,18 **depends** 96:20 152:5 191:16 **deposited** 124:4 **derating** 25:17 26:2 35:14 **derive** 148:21 **derived** 148:22 149:1 154:14 155:13 157:14 **describe** 9:8 38:21 67:20 69:10 **described** 155:16 177:19 185:3 **describing** 71:9 157:17 **description** 8:21 47:20 200:22 **design** 24:17 31:10 103:19 105:8 107:11 ,13 125:12 126:14 130:1 ,3 132:21 ,22 133:8 133:19 151:21 192:18 **design-selected** 111:20 **designed** 49:14 125:10,13 127:5 129:21 182:9,10 182:18 **designed-in** 183:22 **designers** 128:21 **designs** 24:2,4 35:10 150:15 **despite** 53:10

**detail** 38:2 84:2 177:19 **detailed** 141:21 **details** 149:4 156:22 167:3 181:22 **determination** 14:18 16:6 22:18 22:21 39:17 ,18 40:5 83:13 209:19 **determine** 72:20,20 85:13 ,16 86:9,12 87:15 116:12 132:8 149:8 162:20 163:1 165:22 168:18 173:4 195:1 201:7 **determined** 73:1 74:20 85:21 86:5 88:6,13 89:20 90:3 ,6 93:3 151:6 154:12,16 158:1 197:5 **determines** 47:9 123:19 196:13 **determining** 40:9 97:9 **develop** 105:17 192:11 193:11 **developed** 54:1 73:12 74:7 ,16,18 116:22 193:4,5 194:12 197:17 **developing** 76:16 80:4 191:9 196:17 **development** 189:2 192:8 **develops** 174:17 **device** 134:12 **devices** 149:14 153:20 **dew** 123:1 **diameter** 123:18 ,20 **dictates** 138:18 **difference** 52:15 54:12 58:3 66:22 104:21 111:22 146:19 154:6 161:22 172:11 ,15 173:8 ,17 ,21 174:3 **differences** 52:13 67:21 68:9 69:11 71:11 153:13 171:13 179:5 207:20 **different** 37:3 45:13 46:3 ,9 47:12 52:20 66:15 68:3 76:12 78:20 81:11 89:2,3 91:1 94:11 97:14 110:10,21 111:10 113:2 118:18 134:18 141:17 148:14 150:22 161:19 163:10 164:6 167:7 169:3 170:1 179:6,20 190:1 ,2 208:3 211:1 **differential** 58:7 ,12 **differentially** 189:6 191:3 **difficult** 70:15 ,16 **difficulty** 63:10 71:10 143:5 169:5 **dig** 109:10 **dimension** 93:20 **dimensions** 93:19 **Dinzey** 114:6 **dioxide** 197:11 ,11 **direct** 73:16 78:12 128:5 130:16,19 130:21 131:8 ,19 187:22 198:20 **directed** 70:2 **directing** 202:13 **direction** 209:11 **directly** 8:22 47:4 60:10 71:22 75:19 85:11 147:20 150:14 165:17 **directories** 157:22 165:8 **directory** 85:15 88:6 91:4 158:22 175:19 176:17 **disaggregated** 164:15 165:5 **discount** 118:2 156:6,7 ,9,13 ,16 156:21 157:2 162:4 174:12 178:11 180:15 **discounted** 116:16 156:8 173:22 178:14 **discover** 193:10 **discrete** 52:14 53:16 **discretion** 44:20 **discuss** 5:21 60:2 116:7 **discussed** 141:17Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 220 153:18 165:12 195:19 198:21 **discussing** 38:1 46:13 **discussion** 12:3 15:18 17:19 21:11 29:3 36:16 54:11 98:9 176:7 **discussions** 29:1 96:7 187:16 **dispatched** 102:17 **disposing** 119:20 **disproportionately** 196:11 **disqualifying** 191:15 **disruption** 191:14 **distinct** 26:11 **distinction** 73:22 **distributed** 43:18 76:11 78:20 **distribution** 20:17 20:20 28:6 74:5 ,6 74:14,16 75:15 ,16 75:18 76:5 ,9,12 76:20 78:10,19,20 112:9 122:14,15 122:19 145:4 148:19,22 157:18 157:21 158:4,6,13 163:21 164:1 165:11 174:18 ,22 175:12,13 185:14 185:21 186:7 **distributions** 118:9 157:14 **Distributors** 75:4 **diverse** 112:17 **divide** 18:1 ,12 47:12 **divided** 20:12,22 46:17 **divisions** 156:4 **doable** 98:6 100:11 **docket** 12:7 202:7 **document** 14:11 ,13 78:16 185:1 202:6 **DOE** 7:14,16 13:2,6 13:10 15:7 16:4 16:16 21:20 24:14 25:4,7 28:22 29:13 ,14 31:6,16 31:19 34:22 35:21 36:4 37:13 39:5 39:17 ,18 43:15 55:22 59:6,8,11 60:19 61:8 ,10

62:9 73:1 ,5 ,11 75:18 76:6,6,8,10 76:15 ,18 90:14 91:8 ,12,15 ,18 92:3 ,5 ,7 ,9,11 ,14 92:21 93:5 ,7 ,11 96:10 102:1 106:8 106:15 ,18 110:4 114:19 115:1 116:8 ,22 118:12 123:4,6,13 ,16,19 126:10 127:20,21 128:1 ,4,6 134:17 134:20 135:6 136:5 ,14,20 139:1 143:14,16 144:2,5 145:12,14,19 146:1 ,5 148:11 ,13 148:17 ,19 149:7 ,9 152:20 155:15 156:13 ,15 157:1 ,8 157:10,14,16,20 158:3 ,5 164:10,11 164:12,17 165:1 ,5 165:13 ,14,19 166:1 ,9,11 ,13 ,16 166:19,22 167:19 167:20,21 168:3 ,5 174:17 ,20 175:6,8 177:10,16 187:4,8 187:14,17 188:5 ,7 188:18 189:4,5 ,6 189:12,16,17 ,21 190:4 191:9,20 192:14,14 194:4,5 194:20 195:7 196:7 ,13 ,15 ,21 ,22 197:4,9,12,17 198:1 ,2,14,18 199:11 ,15 201:6 201:13 ,22 204:20 205:13 207:22 208:1 210:17 **DOE's** 11:12 73:7 113:16 184:10,21 185:4 193:1 **doing** 10:1 29:12,15 31:20 32:4 34:5 39:18 43:8 49:6 55:18 66:4 67:9 70:21 97:7 ,8 101:11 112:3 126:12 137:14 154:3 192:19 205:7 ,19 **dollars** 54:20

**domestic** 198:4 **door** 138:12 **double** 23:18 **doubt** 129:13 **Doug** 2:2 5:10 6:17 6:18 ,21 25:1 211:21 **downstream** 36:21 120:18 171:11 202:22 **draft** 14:9,18 18:20 18:21 19:5 ,5 20:8 23:13 ,14,14,15 ,16 24:9 39:1 ,6,7 ,12 39:12,19 41:19 43:13 ,14 48:5 ,5 48:11 ,15 ,16 55:20 55:20 57:3 ,4,6,7 57:12,22 58:2,4,5 58:8 ,10,11 ,13 ,14 59:1 ,2,13 ,19 85:13 ,14 90:12,13 91:1 ,10,10,17 ,17 118:20,20 159:6 159:12 160:4 165:7 ,7 166:4,6,7 167:9,11 ,14 176:1 209:20 **drain** 123:12 124:4 124:9,10,14 **draws** 94:8 **drive** 133:19 **driven** 27:12 134:10 **driver** 71:7 **drivers** 167:22 **drop** 112:4 **duct** 138:15 **due** 12:8 14:15 15:4 49:19 71:13 151:7 172:22 199:18 **Durken's** 183:11 **Durkin** 34:14 126:3 205:3 **E E**  4:1 5:1 ,1 37:8 143:1 ,1 **e-vent** 137:18 **earlier** 35:8 ,14 50:7 51:14 58:1 73:10 91:6 126:2 158:12 176:7 185:13 195:18 198:21 **early** 17:2,10 103:2 114:5 122:16 151:17 199:22

**easier** 114:14 159:15 **easiest** 25:21 **easy** 63:9 **economic** 15:11 31:2 36:5 75:9,12 104:1 116:10 163:8 167:1 ,22 196:9 208:3 **economies** 82:19 **economists** 171:12 **economy** 2:20 7:11 199:6 **effect** 114:18 115:3 157:12 173:14 **effective** 67:20 98:11 **effectively** 97:19 **effects** 35:4 **efficiencies** 20:14 21:2 38:6,7 ,19 43:20 113:3 157:18 ,21 158:5 174:18 ,22 **efficiency** 18:10 19:9,10 20:3 ,12 20:21 22:3 ,20 24:12,15 25:6,18 26:1 27:18 ,19 36:1 ,19 38:13 ,16 40:10,11 ,12,15 ,19 40:22 41:1 ,2,10 41:14 44:15 46:20 46:21 47:4,9,17 47:20 50:3 54:1 ,3 54:6,18 56:12 57:1 ,11 ,14,15 ,17 59:8 60:5 66:5 ,9 69:20 70:12 73:15 83:18 86:1 ,6,8,9 86:13 ,19 87:7 ,9 87:10,14 88:1 ,3 ,4 88:8 ,9,10,11 ,12 88:12,13 ,19 89:6 89:8 90:5 ,8 91:22 93:9,9,21 98:7 ,10 99:1 101:17 ,18 103:3 104:6 110:6 110:13 114:20 119:5 122:1 ,7 123:11 125:4,18 127:16 128:8 ,15 129:15 130:12 137:12 144:17 145:17 ,18 146:19 146:20 147:1 ,3 ,4

148:15 151:8 157:14 158:6,7 ,14 160:5 ,6 161:3 163:10,20 164:1 ,3 168:5 170:22 171:14 174:14,21 175:4,7 ,11 ,13 177:21 178:4 179:20,21 180:1 181:2 182:3 ,5 ,6 182:13 184:13 194:12,14,17 ,20 195:2,3 ,4,5 200:3 200:9,10 204:20 **efficient** 7:11 34:16 73:3 104:16 109:13 113:6 116:21 123:9 129:22 130:2,4 182:16 195:1 **effort** 82:5 126:11 **EIA** 84:6 86:15 154:13 ,14 155:13 155:20 156:2 **EIA's** 154:16,19 155:14,17 **eight** 14:1 ,2 26:15 167:8 176:12 **eighth** 124:15 **EISA** 13:5 **either** 23:13 ,15 24:16 30:14 69:8 84:13 ,16,19 85:17 91:14 136:12 138:9 148:7 153:8 155:8 188:22 191:15 **ejecting** 131:2 **elasticities** 164:9 **elasticity** 166:22 169:13 ,16 170:6 170:15 171:16 **electric** 19:7 113:8 **electrical** 84:1 108:19 124:16,20 205:14 **electricity** 91:7 ,9,12 91:18 92:1 106:16 108:12 154:13 155:12 198:12 **element** 11:6 **elevators** 72:1 **eliminated** 199:3 **eliminating** 205:21 **email** 12:10Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 221 **embark** 32:5 **Emily** 211:22 **emission** 194:8 197:19 **emissions** 197:1 ,2,6 197:7 ,10,14,19 **emitter** 133:20 134:4 **emphasize** 33:11 **employment** 188:1 194:9 198:20,20 199:1 ,10,13 **encourage** 6:1 12:1 77:9 209:10 **encouraged** 11:1 **ends** 71:21 129:7 **energy** 1:1 ,2 2:3 ,9 2:22 4:9 5:6 6:15 7:11 9:6 10:16 13:1 19:11 ,13 ,15 22:2,3 ,18 32:15 33:19 36:1 ,22 38:8 71:19 72:7 ,9 72:15 ,21 73:3 ,21 83:14,15 ,17 ,19,20 83:20 84:3 ,3 ,5 ,9 84:10,17 85:22 87:6 88:1 91:21 92:4,13 96:5 106:17 ,18 108:21 114:7 ,15 116:1 ,10 116:21 117:16,19 117:20,21 ,21 118:2 127:16 145:17 154:11 ,15 154:19 155:4,5 ,7 155:10,10,11 ,12 155:13 ,14 156:2,3 156:11 163:8 ,9,15 164:21 168:6 172:6,8,10,12,16 172:22 173:2,8,8 173:12,14,18 174:2 177:17 ,18 177:20 178:2,8 182:7 ,17 187:1 195:1 197:3 ,4,14 198:5 ,7 ,8,11 ,11 199:4,7 ,8,20 200:14 211:16 **Energy's** 5:6,16 6:4 **Energy-Efficient** 2:20 **energy-use** 116:7 **enforcement** 21:12 21:16,17 **engine** 191:10

**engineer** 81:12,18 98:14 125:10 **engineered** 68:4,7 **engineering** 9:2 36:16,17 ,20 38:1 43:17 44:7 49:19 59:4,11 61:2 66:4 73:6,10 74:21 79:6 98:5 113:5 117:13 127:1 ,4,10 128:12 145:2 186:21 188:11 189:10 193:20 **engineers** 126:14 135:8 **engines** 192:9 **England** 127:14 **enhance** 171:6 208:14 **enhancement** 35:11 **enjoyed** 204:9 **enormous** 126:10 **entail** 127:22 129:3 **entered** 159:9 **entire** 64:12 110:17 146:3 **entirely** 33:12 165:11 **entities** 189:14 **environmental** 31:2 **envisioning** 141:3 **EPACT** 13:3 **EPCA** 12:22 13:6 15:9 202:12 **equation** 57:17 **equations** 87:20,22 **equipment** 5:18 13:5 ,8,21 14:1 ,2,3 14:6,20 18:1 ,1 ,3 ,6 18:13 ,13 ,14 19:21 19:21 20:1 ,2,6,7 20:13 ,18 25:9 34:15 ,17 35:4 38:9,21 39:6 43:13 ,21 44:1 ,15 46:9,12,18,19 47:2 48:7 55:21 57:4,7 ,9,10,13 ,22 58:22 59:2,8 63:1 63:2,4 64:6,12 73:2,15 74:15 76:11 ,13 ,14,14,20 78:13 ,19,21 ,22,22 82:1 ,2,4 85:18 ,19 87:7 88:2,5 91:11 91:17 ,18,21

107:17 111:16 116:13 ,18 ,21 122:1 ,8 137:10 138:7 ,10 139:19 143:12,22 144:1 ,5 144:18 146:6 148:15 149:8 151:6,7 ,10 153:14 157:9,13 ,15 160:3 161:10 163:3 ,19 163:20,22 164:1 ,6 167:6,9,12 168:2 168:4 172:19,20 173:13 174:10,17 174:22 175:22 176:1 178:4 179:6 180:6 188:15 189:2 190:18 191:15 194:13 ,14 203:19,20 204:11 206:7 207:22 209:2 **equity** 156:19 **Eric** 2:9 6:15 7:14 21:19,20 22:15 39:20 40:1 43:3 201:22 **especially** 25:12 52:7 59:13 77:1 97:20 134:11 147:17 **essence** 180:4 **essential** 127:10 **essentially** 13:12 100:17 169:15 **establish** 36:18 76:18 156:9 174:21 **estimate** 90:14 155:21 163:2 164:2 172:5 197:2 197:7 ,15 **estimated** 65:16 165:14 197:13 206:16 **estimates** 19:14 76:16 80:4 154:20 156:13 157:20 163:7 197:9 209:1 **estimating** 157:2 **etcetera** 58:10 133:18 **Europe** 208:8 **evaluate** 47:6 **evaluating** 190:7 **event** 146:2

**Everybody** 138:18 **evidence** 151:17 **evolution** 114:3 **evolved** 95:4 **exact** 121:14 **exactly** 42:10 78:4 96:10 103:16 147:1 **examine** 196:14 **examines** 189:13 **example** 15:10 28:5 38:15 ,22 41:18 47:11 ,13 48:9 50:19 56:6,11 ,14 94:22 125:14 128:13 131:9 156:5 159:5 181:1 182:8 192:2 **excavators** 49:8 **exceeding** 151:9 **Excellent** 184:4 **exception** 210:17 **excess** 124:3 **Exchange** 74:22 **exchanger** 23:22 24:1 ,16 35:9 68:6 145:11 146:2,3 147:19 148:3 154:1 ,9 **exchangers** 68:5 153:19 188:20 189:1 206:1 ,8 **excited** 111:15 **excluding** 196:4 **exclusion** 205:13 **executive** 66:7 ,16 67:1 ,8 202:3 **exemption** 77:12 **exercise** 126:18 **exhaust** 122:22 130:22 **existence** 159:2,2 **existing** 15:1 86:2 86:13 ,20 87:7 90:8 99:14 120:3 128:7 ,15 136:4 191:10 **expand** 164:16 165:4 **expect** 94:7 ,8 **expected** 16:22 95:16 163:13 **expenditure** 154:20 **expenditures** 156:8 199:8 **expense** 129:4,13

130:6 **expenses** 117:9,15 117:22 118:3 ,5 126:19 128:1 156:10 **expensive** 68:15 70:15 71:4 **experience** 77:17 126:15 127:13 150:5 ,12,21 183:2 183:11 184:1 208:22 **experienced** 88:19 88:20 155:6 **expertise** 6:9 82:1 93:18 **experts** 118:14 **explain** 39:5 66:18 162:9 **explained** 39:15 50:6 78:15 **explains** 42:20 **explicitly** 122:15 **expressed** 211:15 **extension** 50:11 **extent** 17:6 62:8 112:2 115:1 122:16 170:9 191:4 **external** 145:21 146:17 147:6,18 153:6 **extrapolate** 65:3 ,10 **extrapolated** 175:20 **extrapolating** 49:7 170:14 **extrapolation** 170:13 **extremely** 50:16 101:10 176:9 **eye-opening** 207:7 **F F**  143:1 **faced** 43:6 **facetious** 168:20 **facilitator** 6:16 211:21 **facility** 94:9 138:18 144:9 147:7 **fact** 32:18 86:17 95:11 120:8 ,9 131:17 ,19 150:2,9 168:21 170:20 176:8 182:17Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 222 184:10,11 188:16 195:13 ,16 204:22 **factor** 86:16 125:21 125:21 129:14 133:17 173:15 ,16 174:12 177:14 **factors** 15:8 ,9,16 18:15 19:3 20:5 33:2 86:14,15 87:8 89:9 99:2 151:6 179:18 197:6 **Fahrenheit** 88:17 **fail** 34:21 65:2 104:11 **failed** 35:17 144:21 **fails** 95:17 **failure** 145:2,4,7 146:2 147:19 **fair** 121:11 141:21 **fairly** 131:10 158:16 **fall** 16:6 **familiar** 71:18 127:2 142:2 **family** 113:4 **fan** 23:15 ,16 58:9 134:2 **far** 5:21 12:11 28:22 42:14 136:19 158:14 168:10 209:21 **father-in-law** 192:5 **faulty** 159:1 **favorite** 96:19 **feasibility** 35:3 36:5 **feasible** 68:12 69:20 70:14 71:1 183:20 183:22 **feature** 54:5 **featured** 8:19 **features** 24:17 35:11 **fed** 123:12 **Federal** 62:3 ,10,11 62:16 156:2 **feedback** 17:4,11 52:7 ,21 195:7 206:20 **feel** 30:20 31:14 105:9 108:17 207:13 **feeling** 54:20 **feet** 54:14,15 ,17 ,19 133:22 134:1 **Felipe** 2:15 8:4 **fewer** 51:18 189:10 **FFC** 177:11 ,17 ,20

**field** 27:17 33:19 44:13 88:20 89:5 89:8 92:14 93:20 93:22 94:1 150:4 150:11 ,18 ,21 184:1 206:20 **field-selected** 111:20 **figure** 129:10 155:18 **fill** 83:21 ,22 97:17 195:5 **fin** 24:3 ,17 35:10 **final** 15:5 61:8 63:14 71:11 106:7 116:5 185:21 199:15 202:21 206:12 210:3 ,4 **finalize** 140:4 **finalized** 30:5 209:19,20 **finally** 20:19 58:18 59:11 76:17 190:4 **financial** 75:8 190:15 **financially** 188:12 **financing** 156:20 **find** 27:1 32:6 51:1 51:17 62:19 100:14 104:12 136:21 152:17 205:1 209:6 **finding** 209:7 **findings** 38:18 **fine** 115:18 **fingers** 96:22 **finished** 83:13 **fire-** 24:3 **fire-down** 99:9 **fired** 19:4 **firing** 32:19 141:9 **firm** 31:6 75:2 **firms** 37:11 **first** 12:20,22 14:17 15:20 17:20 18:12 18:12,16 20:7 ,10 20:11 25:4,22 34:1 38:3 ,5 46:15 46:17 47:12 53:6 60:15 84:12,22 90:19,22 92:4 94:21 95:16 96:16 107:6 114:16 181:1 187:4 188:7 190:11 191:1 203:2

**firsthand** 113:7 **fit** 138:17 **fits** 51:1 **five** 46:10 54:16 69:1 110:21 113:1 135:10 141:17 158:8 **fix** 104:12 150:21 **fixed** 74:2 99:5 **flat** 167:17 **flaw** 181:21 **flexibility** 189:13 ,20 **floor** 71:22 134:1 137:11 ,12 138:17 142:9 203:5 **flow** 84:21 85:20 112:22 115:15 ,19 117:6 133:6 187:15 **flows** 68:16,19 **flue** 23:21 24:7 ,8 122:22 123:12 **fluid** 112:10 **focus** 10:6 132:10 **focuses** 188:3 199:6 **focusing** 187:7 **follow** 37:22 202:2 **follow-on** 31:13 **followed** 14:12 46:16 **following** 8:14,20 74:8 118:19 **forced** 23:15 **forces** 158:9 **forecasts** 155:17 163:12 **foregoing** 178:17 **forget** 132:14,15 ,15 **form** 153:8 154:14 204:4 **formed** 14:2 **Forrestal** 1:8 5:9 142:2 **forth** 61:22 152:9 **Forty** 65:6 **forward** 26:22 141:16 158:2 176:19 188:5 209:17 212:3 **found** 63:3 149:3 **four** 12:21 18:15 26:14 34:22 58:1 79:13 ,15 88:2,5 91:21 103:17 110:21 130:12 135:10 141:17

175:21 180:17 **four-section** 97:2 **fourth** 18:20 **fraction** 119:9 120:19,20 121:7 ,7 121:8 ,16 128:7 ,14 133:10 136:3 165:17 184:11 209:4 **fractions** 106:19 108:13 109:15 121:15 127:21 129:3 185:2 **frame** 31:16 103:19 **framework** 14:10 14:13 109:18 **frameworks** 190:3 **Frank** 2:6 3:11 7:8 15:22 16:2,22 25:13 ,14 27:4 28:21 29:17 32:10 41:5 42:11 44:22 49:17 55:12 59:16 61:9,21 63:6 64:20 78:1 ,2 82:8 82:8 83:2 94:10 96:12 100:8 ,9 101:19 105:13 ,14 107:19 108:15 ,16 109:17 110:3 114:11 ,13 119:21 121:20 122:17 124:21 ,22 125:1 125:22 126:1 ,20 127:11 129:6 131:4 139:5 ,7 140:17 ,18 149:21 149:22 151:1 ,12 152:12 153:1 ,15 158:10,11 ,20 159:22 161:12,13 168:8 ,9 176:2,6 180:19,20 181:12 183:8 184:5 ,10,16 185:20 186:1 195:10 196:5 201:1 ,2 203:7 204:14 209:12,13 210:7 ,21 **Frank's** 78:9 211:6 **frequency** 143:12 143:16 144:3 145:14,16 146:8 153:4,12,13 **frequently** 54:8 108:3 140:9 144:6

**fresh** 141:22 **friends** 31:5 45:3 **front** 138:12,20 **fuel** 14:4,4 18:17 31:1 ,20 32:6 68:16,19 84:15 ,16 85:10,21 87:4,19 87:21 89:18 ,21 90:3 ,7 92:1 106:17 154:18 ,20 164:15 177:11 197:4 **fuels** 177:14 **full** 28:14,16 177:21 197:4 **full-** 177:10 **full-fuel-cycle** 173:15 177:13 178:8 **full-load** 87:16,17 **fully** 44:10 71:10 105:21 **function** 90:4,7 134:11 147:7 165:10,10 **functions** 99:15 **fundamental** 181:21 **funds** 156:20 **furnaces** 97:12 **further** 14:8 26:2 29:11 53:2,4 59:14 **future** 13:18 58:18 76:16 80:4 116:15 155:14 156:8 **G G**  4:1 5:1 **gain** 82:19 **gallons** 114:2 **gaps** 195:6 **gas** 14:4 18:18 19:4 19:4 23:9,19 39:1 48:4,10,11 ,14,15 55:19,20 57:3 ,4 81:9 84:16 85:11 91:2 119:17 154:15 ,16,17 155:12,19 164:20 166:4 167:14 208:10 **gas-fired** 14:7 ,8 20:8 57:10,12 58:22 118:19Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 223 143:17 144:2 160:4 **gases** 23:21 24:8 122:22 **gathering** 71:2 **gear** 31:6 **general** 6:14 7:14 46:11 ,15 48:16 69:18 74:9 75:10 171:21 196:12 **generalization** 195:12 **generally** 82:18 98:11 111:19 115:10,14,18 189:21 **generated** 117:1 **generation** 198:12 198:13 ,14 **Geoff** 64:18 66:20 67:11 ,19 69:2,8 70:1 108:5 ,6,10 152:2 160:9,11 **Geoffrey** 3:4 64:15 64:16 **geographic** 74:11 118:7 134:21 137:4 **getting** 17:11 34:4 37:2 45:7 63:10 67:16 82:5 102:19 103:4 127:1 ,9 136:19 169:5 191:18 201:10 **give** 16:4 43:16 60:3 96:3 ,9 99:15 103:18 104:22 105:1 112:22 153:11 210:13 **given** 34:17 47:21 50:18 134:4 145:3 191:10 **gives** 85:20 **Glass** 3:9 49:15 80:21 81:1 ,4 90:10 107:1 ,4,6 115:5 ,7 135:21 ,21 136:1 ,1 185:9,9 185:12 206:13 ,13 208:5 **Glass'** 208:20 **go** 18:9 19:21 21:5 23:6 28:5 34:19 36:15 ,21 41:19 45:8 ,17 46:8 50:4 51:21 53:13 60:5 66:1 ,10 67:10

72:1 ,1 79:20,22 81:16 84:1 106:13 107:3 108:7 112:21 114:11 ,17 125:2 128:22 130:5 132:18 ,19 135:22 137:17 141:13 142:5 152:7 154:3 161:3 162:19 173:6 177:3 180:12 181:18 200:17 206:14,18 **go-to** 6:19 **goes** 26:22 46:2 80:11 82:4 84:20 94:15 96:4 102:15 103:18 155:20 202:6 208:6 209:17 **going** 5:12 8:12,20 16:17 21:16 28:20 30:16 31:3 ,12 32:3 ,4 33:11 ,21 41:8 44:9 45:1 49:2 51:18 52:3 53:18 ,21 67:13 68:8 ,17 ,18 70:1 72:6 79:16,17 83:14 95:20 96:2 97:18 98:7 99:3 ,5 99:6 101:18 103:6 104:6,11 105:17 111:1 112:6 113:11 114:19 119:5 121:10,11 121:12 126:10,13 129:21 130:9,13 130:14,17 134:14 135:2 137:7 138:4 138:5 ,6 139:22 141:10,18 146:15 147:5 ,6,10,13 ,18 148:1 ,5 152:15 ,17 153:2 154:3 169:20 176:20,21 177:4 179:10,11 180:12 181:10,13 182:6,16,20 184:12 186:2,9 188:5 191:6,17 201:5 ,7 206:6 207:9,14 208:16 209:15 210:13 ,15 **good** 5:4,13 10:14 11:3 ,7 12:18 17:11 33:17 ,18 45:15 53:21 71:9 72:2 81:3 82:11 105:11 109:22 127:17 148:8 150:21 152:4 162:9 169:6 171:15 ,16 182:22 **goodness** 129:1 **gotten** 10:1 **government** 62:3 ,10 62:17 187:19 200:3 **graph** 37:8 **great** 16:13 21:11 52:1 122:9 169:21 171:7 **greater** 84:18 **greatly** 111:1 **ground** 71:22 142:9 **grouped** 194:15 **grouping** 64:22 131:15 **groups** 2:1 3:1 135:10 **growing** 113:21 **grown** 101:1 **grows** 167:6 **growth** 158:19 167:12,17 175:18 176:18 ,19 **guaranteed** 79:12 **guess** 26:11 ,13 27:2 32:21 33:6 39:18 41:16 62:2 67:14 70:7 78:3 80:8 94:14 95:18 101:15 120:13 161:20 201:3 209:14 **guesses** 126:13 **guide** 187:16 **guidelines** 156:1 **gut** 54:20 **guy** 6:19 **guys** 171:4 **H hairs**  210:16 **half** 65:1 68:11 90:1 124:17 **hall** 71:21 **Halley** 3:4 64:15 ,17 64:18 66:22 67:15 68:1 69:3 ,12,15 69:22 70:3 108:6

152:2,3 160:9,10 160:12 161:1 **hand** 10:11 96:21 103:5 **handle** 11:3 70:16 **handling** 119:8 **hands** 150:17 **happen** 94:21 104:7 104:13 **happening** 30:22 32:7 33:7 132:5 **happens** 98:15 141:13 202:15 **Happy** 53:2,2 **hard** 52:8 53:9 95:21 147:4 **HARDI** 75:4 **Harvey** 2:19 7:10 21:4,5 23:1 27:8 ,9 28:15 30:15 31:17 33:8 34:8 ,11 37:8 43:4 44:9 48:18 50:1 53:4 55:1 ,2 61:14,15 93:16,17 96:18 102:2,4 103:16 105:4 107:7 111:12,13 113:13 126:1 ,22 128:9 131:5 132:19 135:14,20 136:18 142:10 153:16 170:11 183:8 186:4 190:10 192:4 193:1 204:13 208:19 210:8 ,21 **Harvey's** 49:17 211:6 **hate** 125:2 **hazard** 121:10 **head** 53:12 115:15 115:19 210:16 **health** 35:5 **hear** 10:13 80:22 81:1 82:10 139:6 139:7 151:2,3 205:11 **heard** 102:11 152:13 193:20 206:19 212:4 **heat** 23:21 ,22 24:1 24:5 ,7 ,16 35:9 68:4,5 95:2 97:8 97:16,18,22 98:2 107:22 112:9 123:1 ,11 129:12

134:8 138:13 145:11 146:2,3 147:19 148:3 153:19 154:1 ,9 185:14,21 186:8 188:20,22 193:1 ,3 206:1 ,8 **heater** 119:6,8 141:10 190:19,19 **heaters** 32:1 114:9 119:10 139:3 140:7 ,11 ,21 190:22 **heating** 2:6 7:9 13:16 32:1 ,18 54:15 62:5 75:3 83:21 ,22 84:14,15 84:17 85:8 ,9,21 86:22 87:1 ,3 ,8,14 87:18 ,21 89:19,21 89:22 90:2,3 ,3 ,4,6 90:17 ,20,21 91:14 91:14 93:2 104:3 106:20,21 108:14 108:15 109:2,16 109:16 113:15 ,15 134:2 141:6 **heats** 89:1 **hedging** 169:4 **held** 96:21 **hell** 32:6 **Hello** 81:1 107:4 160:10 **help** 60:12 96:11 100:12 135:13 153:12 160:1 171:6 189:19 **helped** 38:17 **helpful** 52:2 64:15 69:14 82:8 83:5 100:6 **helping** 192:7 **helps** 38:12 **Hi** 29:1 ,9,10,11 ,18 30:18 186:16 **high** 44:15 53:16 54:3 ,6 81:9,10 98:7 ,9 99:1 110:6 110:13 114:1 119:5 122:22 126:5 ,12 127:6 129:9 130:12 137:11 147:1 ,3 ,4 160:15 161:3 162:2 168:2Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 224 183:12,15 **high-temperature** 205:5 **higher** 47:17 49:19 54:1 ,18 70:12 82:18 ,19 104:16 121:2 122:1 ,7 125:4,17 129:15 145:18 146:20 151:8 155:9 157:10,13 182:11 **highest** 65:7 170:22 **highlights** 161:6 **hijack** 29:5 **Hiller** 114:6 **historic** 163:16 164:12 **historical** 93:7 101:16 164:11 ,16 167:5 168:1 ,3 **historically** 94:20 **history** 151:13 191:20 **hit** 19:22 210:7 **Hmm** 152:1 **Hmmm** 108:10 **holdback** 203:21 **holding** 181:14 **Holly** 64:15 **honestly** 62:1 **hood** 58:11 **hope** 17:1 94:4 169:14 **hopefully** 80:22 105:21 159:22 **hoping** 65:10 104:9 **horizon** 80:6 **horizontal** 136:10 **horsepower** 51:11 54:15 ,16 **hospital** 138:4 **hospitals** 107:17 147:9 **hot** 14:5 18:19 19:6 20:8 39:1 41:19 48:11 51:15 55:20 55:20 57:3 ,7 ,12 59:1 ,2 65:5 85:4,7 90:11 ,13 91:2 97:13 106:19 108:13 109:16 114:4 129:17 138:13 141:5 143:17 144:2,11 145:21 146:12 160:4 165:6 166:12,13 167:14

175:22 190:19 205:5 210:7 **hot-water** 183:18 **hotel** 95:1 137:10 138:6 **hotels** 107:18 **hour** 13:14,15 19:2 44:2 50:7 ,13 64:7 64:7 ,9 142:1 **hours** 87:16,17 91:15 144:8 ,21 **house** 53:10 96:22 97:2,9,22 **household** 167:1 **households** 155:1 **huge** 42:1 62:17 68:19 71:10 125:21 131:13 **human** 35:5 **HVAC** 75:9 **hydronic** 109:2 **Hydronics** 29:18 **hypothesis** 128:19

**I ID**  142:7 **idea** 16:5 102:20 109:19 131:3 **ideally** 210:3 **identification** 190:5 **identified** 23:9 24:14 40:12 43:22 46:19 188:8 ,18 189:4,7 207:15 210:14 **identifier** 12:8 **identifies** 187:5 188:5 **identify** 12:7 16:14 24:11 38:5 186:22 **identifying** 18:9 23:6 188:4 **idle** 206:9 **ifs** 98:2 **IGCC** 113:17 **ignite** 23:19 **igniter** 91:11 **ignore** 95:18 120:14 **ignored** 69:6 **illustrate** 43:6 **immediate** 168:10 195:11 **Immediately** 8:14 **impact** 4:8 ,10 9:11 9:14 15:11 ,13 17:7 ,17 ,20 33:21

35:15 36:1 ,22 37:1 72:17 93:12 115:1 116:10 133:12 162:14,17 163:1 ,5 ,6,7 ,8 164:2,8 168:6 170:21 172:5 186:15 ,18 ,19 187:20 189:6 190:8 193:21 194:7 ,8,8,10 197:1 198:3 ,6,13 198:16,22 199:5 199:17 200:5 ,21 **impacted** 196:12,14 **impacts** 32:12 133:12 172:5 ,7 187:1 ,18,21 189:14 194:20 196:10,15 197:2 198:4 199:13 ,18 **implemented** 30:18 **implications** 103:6 **important** 8:18 43:15 ,20 98:7 99:1 102:22 111:22 128:20 133:13 187:6 209:10,16 210:5 **impossible** 103:7 **improve** 18:10 24:11 25:5 ,22 35:9,13 59:14 69:20 185:4 **improvement** 19:11 36:2 38:13 ,14,16 40:20 158:7 ,15 ,17 193:11 **improvements** 24:18 **improving** 24:14,16 24:16 **IMSET** 199:5 **inappropriately** 158:22 **Inaudible** 16:19 **inches** 123:17 **include** 19:3 30:11 70:11 80:15 ,18 100:16 108:20 121:22 122:6 144:14 162:4 184:17 194:6 195:1 199:22 **included** 35:17 42:11 106:18 115:9 131:14 183:16 190:18 **includes** 19:1 31:5 58:11 65:11 144:10 154:14,17 154:20 198:10 **including** 28:18 55:4 62:5 80:17 119:11 153:20 156:11 160:6 193:20 196:11 **inclusion** 43:5 **income** 75:3 **incorporate** 17:5 **incorrect** 125:8 182:17 **increase** 134:5 172:17 ,21 173:19 173:20 175:9 178:20 179:1 ,12 179:13 ,16,22 180:1 182:3 200:8 204:10 206:5 **increased** 59:7 170:22 180:5 **increases** 22:3 56:3 56:4 83:17 133:17 174:10 209:8 **increasing** 123:10 166:7 ,13 ,19 **incredible** 209:7 **incremental** 40:16 40:21 47:11 48:7 48:10,12,14 54:12 56:3 ,19 57:2 58:15 59:7 ,10 60:20,20 69:18 73:12,17 ,18,19,19 73:20 74:1 ,4 76:4 209:2 **increments** 99:6 **incumbent** 126:20 **INDEPENDENCE** 1:9 **indepth** 116:9 **Indiana** 77:15 ,15 **indicate** 25:13 143:20 **indicated** 131:6 178:13 **indicates** 143:22 144:4 **indication** 132:3 **indirect** 194:9 198:19 199:1 ,13 **indirectly** 60:12

**individual** 112:18 116:11 **individually** 139:10 **individuals** 10:19 64:1 **indoors** 122:21 **inducer** 23:16 58:9 58:9 91:10 **industrial** 33:12 53:1 114:20 115:2 **Industries** 3:11 153:2 158:21 **industry** 30:4 31:9 34:2 51:5 53:21 101:3 135:10 149:13 158:9 187:4,5 ,15 ,22 190:3 193:6 209:6 **inefficient** 113:22 **inexpensive** 103:3 126:17 **inflation** 178:21 179:4,17 180:7 ,11 180:13 **influencing** 179:18 **inform** 189:20 **informally** 102:11 **information** 4:7 6:2 8:11 12:15 ,17 18:9 33:18 ,18 34:4 37:2,4 46:13 48:2,4 55:3 59:3 59:13 ,21 ,22 60:11 61:9 62:8 ,14 66:11 67:2 69:5 71:2 80:3 83:3 84:5 94:13 96:11 100:14 110:1 118:14 119:4 132:7 135:17 ,18 156:19 159:7 169:6 170:9 171:5 185:1 189:18 ,19 190:7 192:11 197:18 212:6 **informative** 211:19 **ingenuity** 98:16 209:7 **initial** 180:11 **Initially** 29:2 **innovative** 35:10 **input** 6:1 13:13 14:4 18:18 19:1 20:2 20:13 21:7 28:14 43:19,21 44:3 ,8Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 225 44:13 ,18 47:1 ,3 50:17 64:2 65:1 ,6 65:8 68:11 74:19 85:17 87:14,18 88:15 92:11 93:5 105:11 106:16,19 123:20 128:1 ,4,6 128:12,14 134:17 137:2 145:19 146:1 148:10 156:6 163:5 165:9 168:5 196:16 198:14 **inputs** 72:22 117:6 117:8 118:6,8 162:6,19 167:20 173:6,11 174:7 186:20 **inside** 123:1 **install** 35:4 68:6 101:5 118:11 **installation** 65:12 68:7 ,16 80:16,17 80:18 81:12 82:2 93:4 100:16 109:9 111:2 117:3 ,11 ,14 118:7 ,10,12,15 ,16 118:18 119:13 120:4 126:7 128:1 129:4 136:17 180:6 184:11 **installations** 88:21 93:7 98:5 100:4 100:16 111:9 118:22,22 119:14 119:16 120:20,21 121:15 123:5 ,8,19 124:6,12,16,18 127:22 128:8 ,15 129:3 136:4,15 139:3 **installed** 84:4 85:2 93:1 98:1 116:14 117:9,10 118:5 120:22 121:8 122:21 128:3 131:12 136:6,9 150:11 161:18 ,22 165:16 168:19 169:1 173:19,20 173:21 174:5 ,8,11 178:21 179:3 ,13 179:17 ,22 180:1 180:12 **installed-cost** 172:17 **installer** 63:13

**installing** 63:14 **instances** 129:13 **Institute** 2:7 7:9 29:18 **insulation** 86:19 **insulting** 113:8 **insurance** 103:5 **integral** 112:7 ,9 **integrating** 101:8 **intend** 69:16 **inter-agency** 197:17 **interest** 24:18 35:8 **interested** 6:1 10:18 10:21 29:15 36:4 44:12 92:14 93:11 134:20 135:9 146:5 **interesting** 59:17 **interface** 102:18 **interim** 30:4 42:1 ,5 **intermediate** 40:10 40:11 42:14,15 46:20 **internal** 29:14 112:2 **international** 37:11 75:4 208:21 209:9 **internationally** 55:6 **Internet** 10:18 **intervene** 210:18 **interview** 126:11 187:15 **interviews** 136:21 187:17 188:6 **introduce** 11:5 12:12 126:2 184:2 **introduction** 7:17 7:19 12:19 **introductions** 4:5 5:3 7:1 **intuitions** 49:12 **intuitively** 170:17 **inverse** 132:16 **invest** 95:3 **investigate** 199:18 **investigating** 105:6 **investing** 31:20 **investments** 189:1 **invite** 11:10,14 **invites** 167:21 **involved** 18:15 23:7 23:9 37:12 76:19 190:20 **involves** 35:10 **iron** 24:2 153:20 **irrespective** 66:8

**issue** 11:21 21:11 22:2 25:7 ,11 ,15 26:13 27:5 31:7 32:11 34:2 50:9 60:13 61:7 80:3 96:13 108:11 114:15 130:8 136:2 139:9 140:16,20,22 146:16 153:5 ,22 154:2 170:12,14 188:7 ,18 189:4,17 189:21 190:4 191:1 ,8 192:4 201:12 **issues** 5:22 8:17 9:17 12:3 24:22 25:3 36:3 59:5 60:8 92:3 107:22 127:21 132:11 145:15 153:17 187:6 188:4,6 189:16 190:5 ,16 203:4 **issuing** 201:14 **item** 25:11 60:15 61:8 131:3 140:6 190:11 **iterative** 193:11 **J jack**  68:18 **January** 12:9 14:15 **Jeff** 3:10 64:1 178:20,20 179:7 ,9 200:16,17 205:10 206:11 **Jim** 2:3 5:12 6:6 7:16 10:10 11:8 22:20 192:22 211:13 **Joanna** 3:7 39:3 60:17 69:17 70:9 **Joanna's** 70:13 **job** 68:7 71:9 **jobs** 126:16 199:3 **John** 6:16 **joined** 67:20 **joining** 39:4 49:16 60:18 69:8 **journal** 34:13 126:4 **July** 13:9,9,21 15:5 201:6 **jumbled** 121:13 **jump** 96:6 **jumping** 32:3

**June** 201:6 **jurisdictions** 204:16 **justification** 170:17 **K kBTU**  13:14,14 19:2 44:2 47:3 49:4 64:6,7 ,13 **keep** 10:6 **keeping** 40:5 **key** 118:15 148:10 174:13 188:4 189:4 190:5 211:2 **kilo[watt]/hour** 155:6 **kind** 20:2,4 26:4 38:17 42:20 49:20 53:16 54:10 62:17 70:21 93:15 95:21 96:1 126:5 127:13 130:7 132:3 137:4 137:12 147:8 149:13 ,14,17 150:19 170:5 195:11 202:15 203:16 209:14 **kinds** 135:8 **kits** 119:7 **Kleiss** 3:10 64:1 178:20 179:9,9 180:9,16 200:16 200:18 205:10,12 **know** 21:21 22:4,13 24:11 25:16,21 28:10,22 29:10,11 29:16 31:21 32:21 32:22 33:3 ,14 38:16 41:22 44:19 45:2,21 46:4,14 52:5 ,8 61:9,13 62:9,13 ,15 ,17 63:9,10,15 ,16,20 65:4,18,21 68:2,9 68:10,11 ,15 ,18 69:1 ,4,22 70:11 71:2 77:11 ,14,15 77:15 95:1 ,19,21 98:17 99:16 100:12,13 ,15 ,20 104:22 109:11 111:17 ,19 113:7 114:14,22 120:2 131:10,16 132:1 ,3 132:16 135:12 137:10,19 138:11 141:3 ,11 150:17

150:20 152:12,16 160:16,17 161:1 ,2 162:3 ,5 168:20 169:1 170:8 171:21 176:11 177:4 180:21 195:19 201:19 202:1 ,11 206:18 206:22 207:11 210:15 211:5 ,7 **knowing** 50:17 115:18 146:5 **knowledge** 32:2 **knowledge-base** 113:21 **known** 210:3 **L lab**  72:11 88:15 190:14 191:5 **labor** 54:7 74:3 118:10 144:8 ,10 144:21 145:10 **laboratory** 2:12,14 2:16,18 6:10 8:1 ,3 8:5 188:11 **ladder** 65:17 **large** 14:3 ,7 18:17 21:15 37:11 43:18 43:19 44:2 45:8 45:18 48:4,5 ,11 48:14 49:8 50:4,5 50:7 52:14,18,22 53:22 54:11 ,12 55:20 57:4,6 70:14 77:13 79:6 79:15 85:18 94:7 95:1 101:3 102:9 102:10 133:5 138:15 141:4,9 144:12 146:1 147:17 166:16,18 176:14 183:19 188:15 195:6 205:8 **largely** 182:2 **larger** 22:10 33:17 50:11 51:13 ,17 52:7 53:15 77:2 78:12 79:21 105:10 112:16 123:19 130:9,12 134:10 146:12 147:9,18 209:3 **largest** 65:5 167:11Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 226 167:12 **late** 10:14 105:19 **latest** 106:4 **Laughter** 16:20 135:15 211:9 **lavatories** 114:10 **lavatory** 114:2 **law** 44:19 191:8 **Lawrence** 2:11 ,17 6:10 7:22 8:2 72:11 **layout** 98:6 **LBNL** 170:19 180:4 180:15 184:9 207:18 **LCC** 4:9 9:7 ,10 67:13 72:7 ,9 116:8 ,12 117:4 141:18 156:7 ,10 160:2 162:11 **lead** 159:1 **leading** 89:15 193:11 **leaky** 53:10 **leaning** 201:18 **learn** 94:17 **leave** 16:3 44:10 142:4 176:3 **leaving** 89:12 119:6 207:8 **lecture** 97:11 **leery** 170:4 **left** 35:7 72:6 119:8 **legal** 39:21 42:12 **legislated** 208:13 **legs** 113:19 **Lekov** 2:17 6:13 7:22,22 78:11 122:12,13 170:19 170:19 180:3 ,3 ,14 180:15 184:8 ,9,9 184:21 207:17 ,18 207:18 **Leon** 2:15 8:4,4 **let's** 11:19 41:18 60:4 71:17 72:5 92:16 94:22 95:10 95:12 106:3 ,6,13 108:11 120:8 131:16 132:13 134:16 146:9 150:5 151:2 160:8 169:8 181:16,16 184:7 205:11 **level** 42:2,4,14,15 43:5 44:13 60:5 87:9 88:12 91:22

126:13 134:9 161:16 164:4 168:5 170:22 171:14 175:3 178:5 181:2,6 195:2,2,3 ,22 201:19 211:4 **levels** 20:3 36:19 40:10,11 ,13 ,15 ,22 41:1 ,2,8,10,13 ,14 46:20,21 47:4,9 56:4,5 ,12 57:1 ,14 57:15 ,17 70:12 144:17 148:15 160:5 163:11 177:21 179:20 194:12,14,15 ,18 194:20 195:4,5 ,15 195:19,21 196:3 **lie** 21:2 **life** 15:12 36:21 66:6 67:1 72:16,22 116:8 ,9 117:7 118:6 121:21 122:5 148:11 150:9 161:16 171:13 193:21 207:13 209:2 **life-** 207:5 **life-cycle** 143:10 161:2,16 162:2,18 162:22 195:2 **life-cycle-cost** 184:21 **lifetime** 66:8 67:3 ,6 67:12 116:13 ,17 118:1 ,3 ,4 122:2 122:13 145:5 148:11 ,12,14,17 148:21 149:6,9 150:13 151:5 ,15 165:11 206:16 207:21 208:14,15 **lifetimes** 122:14 145:5 148:19 149:8 208:4 **light** 31:22 **likelihood** 121:18 158:6 159:10 **limit** 10:8 19:18 21:7 ,21 22:8 45:18 113:18 **limitations** 71:9 **limited** 61:10 **limits** 81:10 **limp-along** 107:21

**line** 10:19 15:3 16:3 16:7 64:1 142:11 **linear** 50:20 52:16 176:19 **linearity** 53:14 **linearly** 175:10 **lines** 150:1 **link** 159:17 **list** 181:13 **listed** 66:12 83:9 **listening** 64:18 **listing** 159:3 **listings** 159:11 ,15 159:18 **lists** 74:13 **literal** 171:12 **literally** 131:21 **literature** 89:4 118:13 123:22 148:18 149:1 ,4 **little** 31:13 46:6 54:10 60:11 65:16 67:14 70:10,13 80:8 87:11 107:8 117:18 ,22 137:5 143:4 152:15 170:17 171:10 198:21 201:5 ,14 **live** 10:17 11:16 77:15 211:17 **lives** 151:19 **LLC** 3:10,11 **load** 28:16 29:2 30:1 ,8,11 32:19 33:1 ,19 87:9,14 90:4,6 93:2 97:9 97:10,16,22 99:7 99:9 102:15 103:19 112:4 127:17 129:19 132:21 **loading** 67:17 89:3 92:7 **loads** 88:22 **local** 112:3 **located** 131:18 134:18 137:2 138:10 **location** 156:5 **Lochinvar** 179:10 **Lochnivar** 3:10 **logic** 65:9 **logistics** 9:8 **long** 97:3 106:10 115:16,19 151:13 152:18 160:17

210:14 **long-favored** 154:8 **longer** 87:4 **look** 9:20 11:9 18:2 18:4,6 22:9,13 27:3 ,11 ,14,21 28:4,6,8 30:7 31:16 38:11 42:12 42:17 46:15 50:12 60:19 61:1 ,7 66:5 66:6 69:20 70:8 84:22 85:10 95:22 108:11 ,22 114:19 115:1 120:6 160:15 171:13 185:6 191:6,6 195:22 196:4 202:1 ,12 203:16 204:3 212:3 **looked** 20:1 ,5 ,7 ,16 26:14 35:12 37:3 42:19 49:11 52:19 60:22 77:18 86:7 89:19 108:18 139:15 150:20 157:22 176:18 **looking** 19:12 24:18 35:9,11 40:15 ,19 40:22 41:8 44:17 50:4 69:18 70:9 78:17 96:5 97:21 98:21 108:19 115:22 125:17 ,18 131:10,13 139:22 141:15 159:6,6 201:16 205:14 208:21 209:9 **looks** 49:6 65:14 152:12 172:18 **loop** 112:5 114:8 **loops** 113:19,22 183:9 **loss** 97:8 123:11 184:13 **losses** 94:4 133:18 **lost** 105:15 **lot** 45:2 51:9,21 ,22 53:17 ,22 54:21 55:9 68:14,21 69:3 71:1 79:14 98:2 113:16 127:13 133:6 141:20 147:13 150:1 152:5 ,16 180:17 206:6 **lots** 62:4 99:17

102:11 112:19 159:14 203:20 **loud** 147:3 **louvers** 131:21 **low** 13:12 19:15 24:20 36:1 43:5 43:14 81:9,9 88:22 104:5 120:10 121:1 126:6 159:8 162:3 183:13 204:7 **low-temperature** 123:9 **lower** 35:16 56:4 62:22 85:6 98:10 155:9 **lower-priced** 37:16 **lowest** 195:2 **lunch** 9:7 ,9,10 141:19 142:1 **luncheon** 142:13 **M magazine**  164:20 **magically** 106:7 **magnitude** 49:3 **main** 37:4 84:13 156:20 **maintain** 143:20,21 144:1 ,5 159:8 ,11 159:14,15 **maintained** 143:15 143:15 ,18 144:3 **maintaining** 143:11 147:22 151:10 **maintenance** 65:13 65:16,18 117:17 117:17 143:8 ,10 143:12 144:6,9,16 145:13 ,15 ,20,20 146:9,12 147:12 147:21 151:9 152:5 153:3 156:12 208:7 ,9,22 209:1 **major** 126:5 145:15 190:20 **majority** 63:3 66:13 105:1 183:3 184:19 205:16 **making** 39:17 41:20 45:22 101:7 154:6 **manage** 32:18 103:8 **management** 101:4Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 227 101:9 156:2 **Manager** 6:7 ,16 **mandatory** 197:13 199:19 **manner** 210:19 **mantra** 149:13 **manual** 81:10 **manufacture** 35:3 54:14 **manufactured** 188:17 **manufacturer** 9:14 15:13 36:22 47:14 61:2,3 74:8 ,15 ,20 75:20 78:12 81:17 89:4 115:11 ,14,17 116:3 118:13 123:21 159:10 163:6 181:11 186:15 ,18,19 192:6 194:7 200:2 **manufacturer's** 36:18 61:1 ,4 73:8 73:9,14,15 ,18,21 79:18 ,22 81:14 **manufacturers** 3:4 15:11 18:4 37:5 43:11 45:4 47:13 47:18 52:22 55:9 56:9,11 ,15 77:13 82:17 83:1 126:11 135:8 152:14 164:20 187:2,17 187:18 188:7 ,10 188:13 ,19,22 189:8 ,9,19 190:9 190:13 191:3 192:10 193:3 ,10 198:22 206:4 207:12 **manufacturers'** 115:10 **manufacturing** 49:13 57:20 70:8 75:1 77:4 187:22 **marginal** 155:2,5 ,8 155:11 ,13 **market** 4:8 8:22 15:18 ,20 17:17 ,19 17:20,21 ,22 23:5 24:21 25:19 26:3 27:14,15 28:4,9 28:18 33:2,15 ,21 40:13 42:10 53:18 74:8 75:14,17 78:15 93:13 100:22 102:8

103:1 105:6 158:5 158:9 163:17 165:15 ,21 166:1 ,6 166:7 ,13 ,18,19 167:11 168:12,14 175:8 ,9,15 ,18,21 176:8 186:20 195:16 196:3 209:4 **marketing** 43:7 **marketplace** 139:16 **markets** 74:18 75:22 **markup** 73:12,13 74:20 75:2,6,10 82:14,22 **markups** 4:9 9:6 70:11 72:7 ,9,15 72:20 73:6,7 ,13 73:17 ,19 74:1 ,4,7 74:10,14 76:2,4,4 76:7 ,18 117:13 **masonry** 123:7 137:17 **master** 95:12 **match** 129:18 **material** 56:15 ,16 56:17 ,18,19 118:11 144:13 ,22 154:1 161:14 **materials** 20:4,17 24:2 56:10,13 ,14 123:6,15 136:8 153:19 **mathematics** 99:3 **matter** 28:12 37:7 45:21 ,22 96:4 101:11 146:22 **matters** 8:15 **mature** 37:10 195:14 209:5 **Mauer** 3:7 39:4 60:18 69:18 **max** 40:10,11 42:12 42:13 46:21 196:4 **maximum** 13:13 22:3 42:2,4 44:4 138:19 **MBH** 79:4,4 **mean** 21:20 25:15 26:8 39:8 41:19 42:1 ,14 45:15 ,21 50:1 62:2,16 65:14 70:7 96:2 100:10,20 107:17 112:17 120:13

131:9,13 145:3 ,6 145:7 ,7 147:12 150:2,8 169:22 182:6 **means** 54:18 119:7 186:6 191:21 **meant** 103:13 **measure** 33:20 **measurement** 97:4 **measurements** 31:21 **measures** 17:7 30:12 116:19 **mechanical** 18:20 19:5 20:8 23:13 23:14 39:1 ,6,12 41:19 43:13 48:4 48:5 ,11 ,15 ,15 55:19,20 57:3 ,4,6 57:7 ,12 58:4,8,13 59:1 74:9 75:6 85:14 90:12,22 91:10,17 118:20 159:6,12,19 160:4 165:7 166:4,6 167:14 176:1 **mechanical-cost** 118:13 **mechanisms** 22:9 **mediation** 6:18 **medium** 85:9 148:17 **mediums** 85:8 **meet** 88:22 93:2 97:16 115:17 145:17 175:1 ,2 **meeting** 1:5 4:6 5:7 5:15 ,16 6:17 8:6,9 10:5 ,15 ,17 ,21 11:2,22 14:12 64:19 211:15 ,18 212:8 **meetings** 6:19 **members** 6:12 29:19 60:2 65:20 96:8 100:20 105:11 110:2 132:8 170:10 **MEMBERS/PAR ...**  2:1 3:1 **membership** 100:12 **mention** 43:15 206:15 **mentioned** 15:2,8 33:2 35:1 ,8,14 41:4 89:17 91:6

107:8 ,14 114:13 122:15 158:12 185:20 188:2 **mentioning** 122:17 **mercury** 197:11 **mesh** 114:22 **met** 115:20 **metaphor** 171:15 **methane** 197:12 **method** 22:19,21 27:16,16 34:6 191:11 ,18 **methodologies** 5:20 6:3 58:16 **methodology** 46:8 46:10 48:17 59:6 60:15 70:8 ,17 ,17 70:21 ,22 85:7 149:5 ,7 167:21 168:11 172:18 177:12,17 194:21 **methods** 157:4 **metric** 177:11 **MIA** 186:14,22 187:8 ,12 188:3 199:9 **mic** 7:17 ,19 40:2 129:5 201:21 **Michigan** 77:16 **microphone** 8:10 10:1 72:13 78:7 **microphones** 7:2 **mid-afternoon** 9:12 **mid-morning** 9:3 **middle** 114:18 167:13 **migrate** 44:16 **million** 21:18 45:9 46:2,5 49:5 50:7 50:10,13 51:10 52:19,20 53:5 ,10 53:20 54:4 65:1 ,3 65:4,6,6,8 66:1 68:11 69:1 79:4,7 79:13 ,13 ,15 ,15 ,16 112:19 130:11 ,12 130:12 132:14 **millions** 45:12 **mind** 22:11 78:6 **mined** 55:11 **minimal** 146:14 **minimum** 103:3 145:17 146:19 191:14 205:6 208:1 **mining** 49:9

**minus** 56:21 ,22,22 **minute** 49:1 122:10 **minutes** 102:5 117:14 119:12 **mis-rating** 191:15 **missed** 36:10 69:4 **missing** 26:13 ,16 120:15 201:19 **mitigating** 129:14 **mix** 114:1 198:11 **mixed** 201:11 **mixture** 23:20 **mode** 19:13 ,13 ,14 19:15 ,17 24:5 109:13 130:18 133:9 **model** 24:10 37:18 46:1 47:17 52:11 116:22 156:17 163:12,16 164:5 ,8 164:11 165:8 166:18 ,19 171:16 187:15 ,20 192:12 192:14 193:1 ,4 199:6 **model.'** 49:20 **modeled** 200:9 **Modeling** 177:18 198:8 **models** 26:1 ,3 33:3 38:4 40:21 85:15 86:4 88:6 91:3 157:21 ,22 166:17 166:17 169:17 175:19 176:17 188:10 190:13 193:10 195:16,20 196:2 **modified** 204:7 **modifying** 196:14 200:6,9 **modular** 51:16 53:21 103:15 104:21 **modularity** 102:7 **modulates** 88:22 **modulating** 23:19 27:11 ,18 ,21 28:2 28:4,7 ,8,13 33:4 65:21 99:8 134:12 **module** 169:1 **moment** 30:7 42:20 125:2 **moments** 74:7 122:3Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 228 **monetization** 197:19 **money** 151:11 **monitoring** 32:6 92:14 **Monte** 117:1 **monthly** 154:11 **months** 106:7 **morning** 5:4,11 ,13 8:11 11:7 12:18 183:10 185:13 203:2 211:22 **move** 8:20 15:17 17:14 32:9 39:3 40:9 41:3 49:4 55:15 ,18 71:12 83:9 116:5 132:22 133:9 134:16 138:17 146:18 162:15 181:10 186:13 203:4 210:20 **moved** 141:1 **moves** 74:15 **movie** 37:19 **moving** 8:22 9:14 10:15 17:15 29:2 29:4,7 36:14 98:22 99:10 154:10 186:14 **multi-stage** 27:12 **multi-store** 113:20 **multiple** 24:1 ,2,4 54:7 93:1 ,6 95:7 ,9 96:14 99:4,11 ,14 99:21 100:4 110:19 111:9 139:2,13 153:19 164:10 178:3 193:2 194:12 **multiples** 139:12 **multiplier** 54:12 169:9 177:13 **multiplies** 155:15 **mute** 10:11 **Myers** 3:11 82:8 ,10 82:12 83:6 121:20 124:21 125:1 ,1 126:22 139:5 ,5 ,8 140:6 151:1 ,3 ,5 152:12 153:1 ,1 158:20,20 181:12 181:12,18 184:4,6 184:16,16 185:6 203:7 ,7 ,10,12 204:17 ,19 **N**

**N** 4:1 5:1 143:1 ,1 ,1 **nada** 182:11 **naive** 153:17 **name** 6:6 7:1 ,4 10:3 72:10 **name's** 5:10 186:16 **national** 2:5 ,11 ,13 2:15 ,17 4:10 6:10 7:6 8:1 ,3 ,5 9:11 37:1 72:11 ,17 75:20,21 77:20 78:3 ,9,14 155:19 162:14,17 163:1 ,5 163:7 ,8,8 164:2 172:4,5 ,8 173:7 173:13 177:18 178:2,8 193:21 198:7 ,8 199:12,18 200:14 **nationally** 199:3 **nationwide** 77:14 **natural** 14:18 18:21 19:4,5 23:14 24:9 39:7 ,12,19 43:14 57:22 58:2,4,10 58:14 59:1 ,13 ,19 84:16 85:14 90:13 91:1 ,17 118:20 154:15 ,16,17 155:12 165:7 166:3 ,7 167:9,10 209:20 **naturally** 134:13 **nature** 96:9 **Navigant** 2:8 ,10,21 6:10 7:12,20 39:11 41:10 42:9 49:22 83:5 186:17 **navigator** 154:16 **near** 114:9 124:9 141:5 142:9 **necessarily** 79:11 81:21 82:3 108:3 116:2 150:14 **necessary** 16:9 49:19 118:11 163:5 **necessitating** 188:21 **need** 9:17 27:13 31:1 ,14 50:10 51:4 63:2 80:8 95:22 97:2 98:10 98:19,20 99:9 102:8 103:9,16 107:9 108:22

115:1 120:18 122:21 128:12,18 128:20 133:5 134:9,10 138:15 138:16 142:7 154:5 169:6 170:20 181:17 191:6 192:13 209:18 210:2,11 211:5 ,7 **needed** 9:13 31:21 97:1 210:14 **needs** 31:4 95:17 100:1 101:12 124:13 135:12 136:5 ,14 141:5 ,6 150:16,19 186:8 **negative** 160:7 161:2 178:12 **negligible** 19:11 35:22 **negotiated** 21:13 55:8 190:17 **NEMS** 177:18 198:9,10,15 **NES** 172:8 ,10,18 173:4,11 177:20 **net** 172:8 173:17 178:10,14 179:11 199:3 200:14 **neutral** 144:17 **neutralized** 124:13 **neutralizer** 124:12 144:15 **never** 103:4 183:21 **new** 73:3 ,21 74:17 75:17 ,22 80:2,6 80:19 98:5 99:19 99:19 101:5 104:18 106:8 109:5 ,8 118:22 119:14,15 123:8 124:5 127:14 157:11 159:12 163:15 164:7 ,7 165:13 ,19,20 166:1 168:12,13 168:14,19,21 ,22 169:7 172:12,13 174:15 ,16 175:2 178:6 191:11 ,18 194:5 ,5 ,16 198:12 198:14 199:4,11 199:22 201:19 202:9 203:17 204:6

**newer** 104:16 **NIA** 162:15 163:7 174:13 197:5 198:7 200:6 **nice** 5:11 96:18 99:8 **nine** 156:4 176:13 **nitrogen** 197:11 **nitrous** 197:12 **non-condensing** 21:1 42:2 56:4 57:15 89:7 118:21 121:9,12,19 122:21 123:4 125:20 127:7 ,15 128:6 133:1 ,9 136:13 139:19 140:8 146:7 149:10,16 150:6 150:13 151:16,20 153:5 ,14 154:2 159:3 175:13 ,15 206:8 207:21 **non-disclosure** 83:4 **non-heating** 141:11 **non-modulating** 28:8 **non-regulatory** 199:19,21 200:7 ,8 200:11 ,15 201:16 202:5 203:15 204:4 **non-standards** 204:14 **noon** 9:8 **NOPR** 15:4 16:22 17:5 ,8 41:13 42:17 57:21 77:10 105:22 187:12 189:12 194:2,6,13 194:19 196:22,22 198:2,19 199:16 201:12,14 202:18 203:1 210:4,6 **normal** 202:10,10 **normalize** 87:2 **norms** 9:21 **Northwest** 2:13 ,15 8:5 **note** 14:21 32:13 37:13 61:7 90:11 107:7 178:12 **noted** 107:17 108:20 **notes** 37:8 **noteworthy** 195:4 **Notice** 194:1

**noting** 82:12 **nowadays** 96:4 **NPV** 172:9,15 ,18 173:5 174:7 200:11 **number** 12:7 33:3 44:4 50:18 51:1 54:13 63:1 82:16 92:3 93:3 111:9 127:21 128:16 139:16,21 ,21 145:12,12 152:4 152:10 155:1 159:18 165:15 ,16 173:1 176:14 **numbers** 49:3 50:22 51:13 ,17 53:15 65:16 171:14 **O O**  5:1 143:1 ,1 ,1 **Oak** 193:4 **obligation** 42:12 **observation** 183:1 192:17 **observed** 166:6,11 **obsolete** 28:17 **obtain** 36:20 **obtained** 48:16 57:8 58:19 64:9 165:19 **obvious** 167:6 **obviously** 17:8 29:14 52:5 54:13 59:20 169:2 210:22 **occur** 38:14 123:3 202:22 **occurs** 88:14 139:2 144:6 **October** 14:12 **Off-mic** 36:8 **off-setting** 191:4 **offer** 77:12 **office** 7:15 114:5 **Officer** 6:8 **Offices** 138:8 **officially** 201:6 **oh** 42:8 70:3 122:18 139:8 147:2 **oil** 14:4 18:18 19:4 23:9,11 ,11 ,12,20 41:19,21 48:5 57:6,6 84:16 85:11 91:2 154:18 154:20 176:9,13Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 229 176:14,22 177:5 **oil-fired** 118:19 143:14 **okay** 7:18 8:10 11:19,20 17:12,14 22:22 23:1 ,4 26:18 ,20,20 27:4 27:7 28:1 34:8 ,9 36:9,13 ,13 ,15 37:20 40:3 ,6,6,7 41:16 42:18 ,22 43:9 46:7 55:1 ,15 61:6,17 ,20 62:20 63:19 64:14,17 69:7 ,17 70:3 71:5 71:5 ,11 72:10 77:22 78:17 79:10 80:1 ,6,14,19,20 81:4 82:7 83:7 ,11 91:5 92:20 94:10 100:7 101:15 ,21 101:21 105:3 ,13 106:3 ,12,13 107:6 108:5 ,11 112:12 113:12 115:7 116:4 120:3 122:18 ,19 125:22 127:11 ,19 129:6 131:4 132:18 133:15 135:4,19 136:18 137:1 140:5 ,13 141:13 141:15 143:3 148:8 ,9 149:21 150:8 ,21 151:1 ,3 152:1 ,22 153:15 154:7 157:7 161:5 161:5 162:8 ,9,13 167:19 171:8 172:3 176:7 ,20 180:8 ,9,16 181:10 184:5 ,15 185:8 186:12,14 191:22 193:13 ,16 196:5 200:20 203:1 204:12 206:11 207:2 208:18 209:12 211:10 **old** 85:1 94:3 98:4 119:20 126:9 151:10 **older** 121:17 131:16 **on-going** 14:17 **on-site** 145:20 146:17 147:11 ,13 **once** 18:8 19:20 23:5 24:7 ,10 68:22 85:9 96:20 132:5 **one-size-fits-all** 100:5 **one-third** 144:6 **one-time** 191:16 **ones** 50:20,21 130:13 161:9 **ongoing** 18:3 **online** 49:16 69:8 156:18 **open** 192:9 193:7 **opening** 8:17 11:9 11:11 ,15 **operate** 28:13 95:20 97:15 120:11 184:12 190:2 **operated** 115:19 **operates** 62:3 **operating** 87:16,17 98:11 113:2 116:15 ,16,22 117:9,15 ,22 118:3 118:4 121:2,19 143:9 156:10 174:3 ,9,11 185:18 **operation** 23:7 130:4 **operational** 152:6 **operations** 104:13 **operators** 152:7 **opinion** 29:20 39:21 149:19 **opportunity** 8:16 9:16 192:18 203:3 207:4 **opposed** 26:5 60:20 112:8 128:19 169:9 **option** 24:19 25:17 26:4 **options** 18:10 24:13 25:5 35:6,8,9,13 35:19 36:2,6 44:14 **order** 34:2 49:18 51:19,20 72:20 74:1 83:16 84:10 87:15 118:5 120:16 140:4 148:21 162:22 164:16 165:14 173:4 176:12 197:6 202:3 **orders** 49:3 **organizational** 7:1

**orphaned** 119:6,10 **ought** 10:13 152:19 **outcome** 208:3 **outdoor** 99:16 129:16 **outlet** 124:16,20 **output** 14:5 18:19 44:14,17 198:10 200:13 **outputs** 162:22 199:9 **outs** 102:6 **outset** 8:17 ,19 **over-sized** 94:3 ,4 **overall** 167:16 175:15 ,17 190:5 198:4 200:8 **overestimate** 69:19 **overhead** 74:3 206:4,7 **overlap** 102:6 **overlooked** 205:19 **overseas** 189:1 206:3 **oversized** 107:12 **oversizing** 93:21 ,22 94:7 96:16 99:2 107:9 133:4,12,12 133:17 **overview** 4:6 8:6,22 12:14,20 85:20 **owned** 75:1 **owner** 143:20,22 144:4 151:9 **owners** 164:7 **oxide** 197:12 **oxides** 197:11 **P P**  5:1 **p.m** 142:13 143:2 212:8 **P1** 56:21 ,22,22 **P2** 56:21 **P3** 56:21 **P4** 56:22 **pace** 30:19 **Pacific** 2:13 ,15 8:4 **package** 18:8 19:8 19:19 76:17 202:18 **packaged** 1:4 5:7 ,17 6:7 11:12 13:4,11 13:12,13 ,20 14:19 21:8 80:5 93:8 106:20 108:14

113:14 187:2 188:9,14,16 189:8 **packages** 100:21 **packet** 8:10,13 9:20 10:16 11:20 **page** 4:2 9:20 **paid** 63:20 95:19 **panel** 100:17 **paper** 126:3 **paradigm** 190:21 **parallel** 14:17 **parameters** 148:21 149:1 ,2 171:17 173:3 **pardon** 64:15 121:21 204:18 **parentheses** 160:7 178:13 **part** 12:5 29:2 30:1 30:7 ,11 33:1 ,19 59:10 67:12 78:12 78:15 89:20 98:12 112:4 125:12 143:8 162:5 ,9 169:2 187:8 202:10,17 211:11 **part-load** 29:4,7 31:8 68:17 **participants** 10:9 74:8 75:15 **participate** 10:15 10:20 **participating** 52:6 **participation** 211:16 **particular** 5:22 12:3 25:11 26:4 27:14 29:20 36:10 42:21 81:12 93:3 ,18 94:22 102:21 115:13 ,15 137:9 137:18 159:18 161:15 172:9 210:10 **particularly** 25:11 92:14 93:6 97:14 97:16 98:3 ,22 110:6 111:15 129:8 146:22 147:21 149:10 188:14 197:22 206:2 208:8 **parties** 6:1 10:18 ,22 76:19 **parts** 46:11 145:10 148:5

**pass** 35:6 **passed** 35:20 36:6 **passing** 138:13 **path** 103:6 **pause** 92:16 108:8 134:22 160:8 **pay** 155:3 **payback** 9:7 ,10 54:9 72:8 116:19 117:4,7 141:18 151:7 160:14,16 160:18 162:11 182:7 195:3 204:5 207:5 **paybacks** 66:6 **peak** 94:8 102:15 **pegged** 79:3 **penetration** 27:15 **penthouse** 138:7 ,9 **people** 25:22 37:19 45:21 64:20 68:2 68:13 98:17 102:8 104:1 ,7 ,18,22 105:9 129:9 130:17 147:8 171:12 **percent** 19:9 20:18 41:2 47:14 51:11 58:1 88:15 92:7 100:1 ,2 102:8 ,14 102:14 103:17 ,18 103:21 ,22 104:2 105:1 107:20 108:4 114:7 130:1 140:11 148:7 176:13 ,13 178:15 183:15 ,17 205:7 **percentage** 20:16 60:4 76:11 78:19 90:11 125:5 129:9 129:20,22 130:2,9 136:3 184:17 ,20 **percentages** 90:14 **perfect** 191:13 **perform** 21:3 97:15 117:1 194:4,6 196:21 197:1 198:2,19 199:16 208:1 **performance** 35:10 35:13 89:2 **performed** 116:8 145:20 198:6 200:6 **period** 9:7 ,10 72:8Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 230 87:5 116:19 117:4 117:7 160:14 162:11 163:4,18 163:19 166:11 ,15 166:21 167:2,18 173:10 174:1 176:18 195:3 **periods** 160:16 **permutations** 81:7 **perplexing** 170:18 **person** 5:15 10:22 101:7 **personally** 49:10 154:8 **perspective** 8:19 16:8 25:19 155:3 **phase** 41:13 77:10 105:22 185:4 187:4,14,17 194:1 194:6,11 196:7 ,22 196:22 198:19 199:16 203:1 **phases** 187:3 ,11 **PHCC** 51:7 76:22 80:8 105:11 **phone** 52:5 ,6 82:9 107:2 151:2 179:8 205:11 **phones** 10:7 **phrase** 96:20 **physical** 191:4 **physically** 153:8 **pick** 46:22 47:8 72:6 99:6 112:21 112:22 113:1 ,7 **picked** 47:4 **picking** 100:10 110:3 143:5 **picture** 142:7 **pictured** 148:20 **piece** 51:4 **pieces** 81:22 **pipe** 124:7 130:22 130:22 138:14 **piping** 101:6 119:17 119:18 **place** 116:2 131:19 137:7 187:12 208:13 **placement** 164:6 **places** 137:8 ,8 **placing** 119:16 **plan** 138:17 **planned** 157:2 167:1 199:12 **planning** 21:17 **plans** 197:16 198:15

**plant** 200:8 **plastic** 123:14,16 128:2 130:8 ,15 **please** 7:1 ,18 9:22 10:3 ,7 ,10 12:7 15:22 25:2 64:2 66:21 71:20 72:5 82:9 107:2 128:10 142:3 151:1 152:2 160:9 200:17 203:8 212:5 **plots** 64:3 **Plumbing** 75:8 **Plumbing-Heating** 7:6 **Plumbing-Heatin ...**  2:4 **point** 9:4,18 26:21 29:19 30:20 32:2 32:21 38:20 40:18 42:1 44:12 45:9 45:19 50:19 52:4 52:20 53:16 66:2 74:5 94:11 96:8 101:18 118:8 123:1 130:2,3 132:17 150:12 160:15 161:4 171:21 177:2 209:16 211:3 **points** 53:2 99:4 **policy** 103:5 ,6 **popular** 46:5 **population** 196:12 **portal** 142:6 **portion** 85:5 ,6 121:11 185:16 **position** 30:6 **positive** 204:5 **possible** 17:10 112:19 169:7 ,11 191:4 194:22 206:18 ,22 212:2 **possibly** 152:19 **postal** 12:10 **potential** 168:6 174:16 187:1 ,21 189:14 190:8 194:16 **potentially** 29:4 42:17 45:12 141:8 204:6 **pounds** 54:19,19 **pouring** 124:13 **power** 91:16,16 111:2 205:14,16

**powerhouse** 138:5 **PPI** 153:1 158:20 **practicability** 35:3 **practical** 25:17 42:4 **practices** 92:22 93:15 ,22 96:19 105:8 133:12 **preceding** 140:20 **precise** 97:4 **predominantly** 114:4 130:15 **preferences** 115:11 **preliminarily** 189:7 **preliminary** 1:3 5:6 5:18 ,19 8:15 9:14 11:12 12:16 14:14 15:4,17 17:3 27:2 96:7 177:16 181:11 186:14,15 186:18 187:9 188:2,6 193:22 194:2,11 **premium** 37:16 **premix** 24:20 **prepared** 127:4 **prepares** 187:14 **prescient** 192:22 **prescribed** 92:9 **prescriptive** 200:1 **presence** 79:14 **present** 75:21 156:9 172:9,16,16 173:17 ,18 ,19,20 174:1 ,2 178:10,14 179:11 200:14 **presentation** 12:2,6 12:15 14:22 15:14 29:5 **presentations** 193:19 **presented** 122:14 201:1 208:17 **presenter** 70:2 **presenters** 71:8 211:20 **presenting** 72:17 186:17 **presents** 75:14 **President** 6:17 7:5 **Presiding** 6:8 **press** 184:7 **pressure** 13:13 24:20 81:9 113:1 **pretty** 10:14 68:3 97:3 113:21 126:12 127:17 ,18

147:5 167:17 177:7 **previous** 16:9 77:17 82:13 155:16 168:11 181:19 203:8 **previously** 70:22 103:15 125:20 158:21 **price** 40:21 ,21 43:7 43:10 45:13 ,19 46:3 47:7 ,10,10 47:11 ,15 ,15 ,16,16 47:19 48:14 50:2 52:15 ,19 54:11 56:3 ,3 ,20,21 57:11 58:3 ,6,12 63:11 ,20 68:18 70:9 71:2,3 ,11 72:21 73:8 ,8,9,14 73:15 ,18 ,20,21 76:19 80:10,11 ,13 81:18 82:3 ,4 83:13 116:20 117:11 ,13 118:2 154:19,22 155:9 155:17 ,19 156:3 164:9 166:22 169:13 ,16 170:6 **price-related** 59:12 61:9 **priced** 49:19 **prices** 36:19 37:4 40:16 43:13 ,14,18 45:7 46:9 48:6,8 48:10,10,12,21 56:1 ,18 57:2,2,19 57:20 58:2,3 ,13 58:14,15 59:7 ,10 59:12,19,21 60:8 60:21 61:1 ,4 63:2 63:3 64:9 69:19 69:21 76:17 80:5 80:13 117:21 154:11 ,13 ,15 ,15 154:17 ,18 ,21 155:2,3 ,10,11 ,13 155:14,16 198:11 **pricing** 46:12 52:7 ,8 52:12 70:16,21 156:17 170:1 **primarily** 61:3 81:13 93:11 187:7 188:5 **primary** 24:5 71:7 72:22 114:7 ,8 117:8 154:9 172:10 177:14,20 178:1 **primary/secondary** 110:7 **print** 202:8 **prisons** 107:18 **probably** 45:3 51:11 53:20 65:7 67:17 69:1 79:12 79:13 97:11 103:21 104:6 112:14 113:1 129:8 130:1 ,8,15 130:18 131:19 132:2,5 ,14,15 ,16 138:3 140:22 146:13 ,14 147:2 147:10,13 ,18 ,22 148:5 ,6 150:7 152:11 161:21 ,21 181:14 195:20 **problem** 98:13 141:10 **problematic** 141:7 **problems** 68:14 147:11 **procedure** 14:20 16:5 ,10,22 17:7 27:13 28:12,16 29:21 33:1 35:22 88:14,14 92:10 188:9 190:12 209:19 211:1 ,5 **procedures** 15:1 30:6,11 32:12 71:19 **proceed** 11:19 30:6 34:4 72:3 82:9 **proceeding** 34:4,7 191:17 **process** 6:5 ,9 17:11 29:20 82:6 90:16 90:20 126:4 187:10,13 191:16 197:17 201:4 202:10 206:19 **processes** 49:13 **procurement** 200:4 **produce** 56:15 188:19 206:7 207:12 **produced** 49:3 155:7 **producers** 56:16Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 231 **produces** 163:18 **product** 39:16,20 41:21 43:7 49:5 53:22 54:8 63:14 64:13 76:2 86:6 104:6 119:5 120:11 125:18 130:14 137:18 138:13 159:3 ,19 165:5 170:15 177:15 182:22 189:2 194:18 ,19 195:14 199:8 207:14 208:9 209:5 **product-class** 166:2 **production** 189:3 **productive** 138:19 211:12,18,19 **productively** 55:11 **products** 13:4 25:19 37:12,16,16 42:21 46:18 49:3 52:9 54:3 ,4 77:2,2,3 79:5 98:8 99:8 ,13 99:18 ,19,20 104:15 ,16 120:2 129:15 ,15 130:17 136:14 149:18 151:17 158:13 159:7 177:1 ,7 185:17 191:10 205:17 ,20 206:6 206:10,22 207:6 207:13 208:14,16 **profess** 177:4 **profile** 187:4 **profiles** 92:5 **profit** 75:5 128:22 **program** 6:15 13:2 29:7 32:6 101:9 156:2 159:9 164:21 **programs** 18:2 **progress** 29:12 95:8 109:12 141:20 **prohibitive** 127:15 **project** 3:8 6:6 81:20 104:3 160:19 **projected** 15:5 ,6 86:8 155:18 156:3 158:1 167:5 168:14 174:14 175:6,17 176:18 186:3 ,9,10 206:16 **projection** 155:20

167:21 168:11 169:3 172:14 **projections** 155:15 165:20,21 172:11 172:13 **projects** 129:8 139:22 149:9 **promised** 203:2 **prompted** 12:3 **propane** 19:5 **properly** 98:2 115:19 210:5 **properties** 137:10 **proportions** 175:12 **proposal** 208:2 **proposed** 76:16 80:3 87:10 194:1 **proprietary** 192:11 192:12 **provide** 59:20 60:3 60:3 94:12 107:18 107:21 ,22 109:11 115:22 129:11 131:21 132:7 158:13 159:22 170:8 ,10 185:3 **provided** 10:12 25:15 112:14 116:2 156:1 208:1 **provides** 58:17 **providing** 26:6 81:22 90:16 115:14 185:22 **provision** 21:22 22:5 **public** 1:5 2:2 5:10 5:14,16 6:17 ,18 6:19 10:17 11:2 11:22 14:12 103:6 211:14 **publication** 106:1 **publicly** 70:19,22 75:1 82:15 ,17 **published** 105:21 183:11 205:4 **pull** 113:9 210:15 **Pulse** 26:9 **pump** 23:11 91:9,19 108:21 ,22 109:14 110:5 ,5 ,8,10,12 110:13 ,16,17 ,22 111:2,5 ,7 ,11 ,17 111:18 ,20 112:1 ,2 112:20,22 114:15 115:9,11 ,16 124:8 124:11 ,18 ,19

133:5 193:1 ,3 **pumped** 124:10 **pumping** 110:20 **pumps** 109:2,13 110:4,14,16,19 111:5 ,7 ,9 112:16 113:7 114:20 115:2,3 ,13 **purchase** 44:14 61:16 70:15 81:16 116:17 ,20 **purchased** 78:14 206:2 **purchaser** 74:16 **purchasers** 34:3 **purchases** 62:4,10 **purchasing** 157:9 157:12 **purpose** 5:19 17:21 36:17 53:7 163:1 172:4 186:22 196:8 197:1 198:3 199:2,17 **purposes** 77:4 **push** 133:6 **put** 31:13 51:9 53:7 68:10 85:17 99:14 103:14,17 104:15 130:17 137:11 168:17 202:7 203:18 **puzzled** 201:4 **PVC-vented** 119:5 **PVI** 3:11 **Q quads**  178:2,9 **qualified** 37:18 **qualitatively** 187:20 **quality** 61:18 **quandary** 171:10 **quantify** 54:22 149:19 **quantitative** 187:10 **quantitatively** 187:19 **quantity** 129:12 **quarter** 124:11 **quasi-regulatory** 204:22 **question** 28:21 39:4 41:17 ,18 ,20 45:7 48:17 60:19,19 62:1 ,16,18 66:21 70:13 77:1 ,19,20 78:3 ,8 79:3 90:10

90:19,22 105:15 113:14 120:13 121:13 ,20 132:12 133:3 ,13 136:2 162:1 169:13 170:13 178:19 180:4 200:17 207:20 **questionable** 169:12 **questionnaire** 187:16 **questions** 8:8 12:11 17:14 63:22 128:11 ,17 135:7 135:13 136:22 148:9 153:9,13 178:16 180:18 181:13 197:20 200:22 **quick** 38:3 **quickly** 131:11 141:1 **quietly** 16:17 **quite** 32:16 43:12 64:20 193:9 **quote-unquote** 119:6 **R R**  5:1 143:1 **Raba** 2:3 5:12,13 6:6,21 7:16,16,18 10:10 11:7 ,8,21 17:15 22:20 71:16 192:22 211:13 ,14 **radiant** 134:1 **radiation** 24:6 **radiators** 98:1 **raise** 8:18 10:11 134:9 **raised** 9:17 70:20 **raising** 27:18 **ran** 100:1 161:20 **range** 43:18 ,19 64:6 131:14 132:4,11 133:1 183:17 205:7 **rant** 32:7 192:19 **rare** 132:6 141:2 177:7 **rate** 56:2 64:2 88:12 88:13 118:2 123:11 145:2,8 155:22 156:6,7 ,7 156:16 162:4 178:11 180:7 ,15

**rated** 87:10 **rates** 122:10 156:9 156:13 ,21 157:2 167:7 **rating** 13:14 20:13 27:16 28:14 111:17 190:21 191:11 **ratings** 20:2 44:3 ,8 191:11 **ratio** 48:12,13 ,13 57:8 **rationale** 39:5 126:5 **ratios** 85:14 91:3 **Raypak** 3:9 185:10 206:14 **reach** 19:9 **read** 41:6 51:3 161:14 170:16 **reading** 169:14,14 **ready** 162:15 **real** 6:8 10:15 32:2 53:9 63:11 ,20 84:4 112:7 170:4 170:4 171:14 192:5 **realistic** 207:5 **reality** 207:11 **realize** 169:7 171:3 200:18 **realized** 186:10,11 **realizing** 185:17 **really** 11:2 26:1 ,3 26:10 27:11 42:3 42:19 45:2,6 49:10 51:14 54:21 60:8 ,9 64:22 65:2 70:20 71:4 81:5 ,6 94:17 ,20 95:5 ,6 100:12 101:11 103:16 104:21 109:22 112:7 128:11 133:3 140:15 146:21 147:4,7 ,20,20 149:14,19 150:4 150:11 ,20 160:12 169:20 201:14 207:4 211:4 **reason** 16:7 43:8 55:21 67:8 193:8 **reasonable** 66:3 154:6 160:14 205:15 **reasons** 26:8 31:2Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 232 59:18 70:9 131:18 **rebates** 200:2 **rebound** 173:14 **REC** 84:19 **recall** 42:10 183:14 **received** 8:10 43:11 43:12,14,17 46:9 58:2,3 **receiving** 212:3 **recess** 72:4 142:14 **recirc** 112:3 **recirculating** 113:18 ,19,22 **recognize** 30:10 77:5 191:12 **recognized** 10:12 150:19 210:11 **recognizes** 157:8 ,10 189:5 **recollection** 201:11 **recommended** 105:8 **reconfigured** 120:19 **record** 10:3 23:2 34:12 37:7 ,13 184:2,10,17 **recover** 116:20 **RECS** 84:8 89:20 143:13 ,19 154:12 165:18 **redesign** 125:4,19 **reduce** 31:1 **reduced** 116:21 197:14 **reduction** 114:7 197:7 ,9 **redundancy** 102:6 104:3 107:21 108:2,4 **redundant** 103:1 ,14 104:7 107:16,19 **reengineering** 127:14 **refer** 38:22 156:22 **reference** 13:18 40:18 58:18 **referenced** 51:14 **references** 67:5 **referred** 22:4 **referring** 112:4 160:20 **refers** 90:14 **refine** 53:2 99:3 **refining** 135:12 **reflect** 82:22 170:20 **reflecting** 34:14

**reflective** 81:19 82:16 **reflects** 31:7 **Refrigeration** 2:7 7:9 75:4 **regarding** 39:11 60:8 104:5 **regards** 82:1 115:8 206:20 207:18 **region** 74:11 118:7 134:21 137:4 138:1 198:11 **regions** 154:12 **regression** 47:6 50:20 **regular** 143:15 177:6 **regularly** 143:18 ,22 144:1 ,5 **regulating** 19:18 21:7 **regulation** 21:16 114:16 115:2 203:22 204:21 **regulations** 32:11 **regulatory** 8:21 12:8 ,20 18:2 187:19 188:1 189:13 ,20 190:2 194:9 199:16,22 200:5 ,21 202:1 204:14 **relate** 73:14,19 **related** 5:22 16:4 76:7 92:4 131:6 147:20 206:15 **relates** 27:10 49:2 94:15 **relating** 77:1 136:12 **relationship** 36:18 65:19 88:7 ,8 123:20 145:13 170:2 171:2 **relative** 30:21 ,22 **relatively** 138:14 **released** 14:10,13 **relegated** 138:20 **relevant** 6:2 12:21 37:10 105:7 154:1 199:7 **remaining** 196:21 206:5 ,10 210:16 **remains** 175:12,14 **remarks** 5:12 9:17 11:10,11 203:6 206:12 208:20

**remember** 195:17 **remembering** 180:22 **remote** 137:15 138:5 **removal** 118:17 124:2 **removing** 119:20 **renovate** 120:8 **renovated** 203:17 **renovations** 98:3 **rentable** 138:19 **rep** 81:15 **repair** 95:17 117:16 117:18 122:10 143:8 144:9,19 145:7 ,13 ,15 ,15 ,16 147:11 148:5 151:11 153:4 156:11 **repairing** 144:20 **repeat** 35:2 66:20 122:4 **rephrasing** 136:12 **replace** 151:11 **replaced** 146:3 ,4 **replacement** 74:17 75:17 ,22 118:21 119:14,15 ,18 120:2,21 121:22 122:6,17 123:7 124:5 151:7 ,22 200:1 **replacements** 164:7 **replacing** 144:20 151:21 **reply** 50:1 **report** 75:5 ,8 199:2 **reported** 27:19 59:10 84:17 177:21 183:14 **reports** 74:22 143:20 198:13 **represent** 148:20 194:16 **representative** 43:21 46:22 64:10 79:9,18 ,22 81:14 84:9 87:4 92:5 117:5 206:21 **represented** 55:10 82:14 **represents** 78:10 118:10 **reps** 115:10 **reputation** 44:10

**requesting** 149:6 189:17 ,22 190:4,6 **requests** 59:6,9,12 61:8 76:6,7 ,15 ,18 92:21 102:1 106:15 107:1 127:20,21 145:12 145:14 149:7 158:3 ,5 167:19,20 172:3 195:7 196:15 197:18 ,18 199:11 **require** 32:11 ,12 124:18 ,19 187:6 188:4,9,21 190:13 204:7 **required** 34:5 46:20 58:8 112:2 124:2 124:8 ,15 127:5 136:11 140:1 ,2,3 201:12 **requirement** 96:1 192:13 203:17 204:5 208:15 **requirements** 32:16 81:8 ,13 109:2,6 115:15 ,17 ,20 116:1 119:1 133:19 202:3 208:7 ,9 **requires** 32:17 43:16 191:19 **requiring** 109:12 125:4 182:15 **rescind** 77:20 **research** 55:3 140:3 176:21 192:15 **reset** 81:10,10 129:16 **residential** 31:22 65:15 84:7 156:14 158:18 164:17 ,18 165:1 169:16 170:5 ,15 190:19 190:22 201:10 **resistance** 114:9 **resisting** 145:22 **resolve** 60:13 **resolved** 108:1 **resource** 55:6,7 61:19 193:6 **resources** 188:12 189:10 190:14 192:15 ,16 **respect** 113:14 191:8 208:22

**respectfully** 128:10 191:19 **respective** 15:10 47:3 **respectively** 190:17 **respond** 134:15 **responding** 8:8 210:6 **response** 11:17 36:12 55:16 60:16 61:12 80:3 83:10 92:19 162:12 178:18 196:19 198:17 199:14 **responses** 193:15 **rest** 63:5 126:13 190:3 **restate** 89:11 **restraining** 50:17 **restrooms** 71:20 **result** 13:20 20:6 83:17 107:11 151:19 158:8 170:21 182:16 190:14 197:7 ,8,13 198:5 **resulting** 121:22 122:7 182:4 **results** 5:21 15:15 23:6 36:20 43:16 44:6 47:21 50:3 58:19 64:13 76:1 76:6 91:20 160:2 161:11 162:11 167:4 178:3 ,7 ,9,9 178:11 ,13 ,14 194:12 198:7 208:3 **resume** 72:1 ,5 **retail** 76:17 80:5 ,9 80:10,13 **retest** 188:10 190:13 **retired** 148:13 174:6 **retirement** 165:10 165:10 **retirements** 163:17 **retrofit** 97:7 98:18 110:11 121:9 126:5 137:13 183:16 185:22 **retrofit-type** 104:13 **retrofits** 97:20 98:4 119:4Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 233 **retrofitted** 186:5 ,6 **return** 88:16 89:2 89:11 ,13 92:6,8 98:8 ,10 120:10 121:2 125:11 ,15 127:6 182:10,17 182:19 183:4 190:11 204:8 **returning** 9:5 ,10 **review** 8:12,14 13:6 13:10 126:3 148:18 149:1 ,4 **reviewed** 184:3 **reviewing** 177:5 **revise** 194:2 **revised** 34:5 **revision** 16:10 **revisions** 17:6 **RFI** 29:3 **RIA** 202:6 **Ridge** 193:4 **right** 12:18 17:16 23:4 34:10,19 55:17 59:15 62:17 67:18 69:12 72:3 79:8 83:6,12 103:16 106:6,15 108:7 111:6,10 114:17 ,18 119:22 131:8 138:22 139:1 ,22 162:4,8 162:16 171:5 179:20 180:22 203:1 ,21 **rightly** 64:20 **ring-out** 209:7 **road** 152:16 **Robert** 3:9 49:15 80:20,21 90:10 107:1 ,2 115:5 ,6 135:21 136:1 185:9 206:13 **Rohit** 2:8 6:13 12:13 73:9 211:20 **roll** 175:2 203:8 **roll-up** 174:21 **rolled** 17:8 **roofs** 137:17 **room** 1:8 10:14 11:18 26:2 53:12 69:9 80:22 97:11 131:1 ,13 ,17 ,18 ,22 138:7 140:14 142:3 **rooms** 137:9,10,15 138:10 **rotate** 104:8 ,19

**roughly** 176:12 201:6 **round** 29:8 **routine** 143:11 147:12 **routinely** 104:10 147:6 **row** 181:1 **RSMeans** 118:12 143:13 ,16 144:4,7 144:9,14,22 145:1 **rule** 15:6 29:8 132:3 **rulemaking** 6:5 ,9 8:22 12:22 13:8 13:21 14:20 16:5 16:11 18:22 21:13 23:10 29:21 ,22 30:8 38:7 55:8 63:8 70:18 90:15 90:19 131:9 187:10,13 190:6 190:17 ,20 194:1 209:21 **rulemakings** 13:5 14:16 30:14 63:8 114:19 188:3 191:20 202:2 **run** 99:16,17 121:18 141:10 142:6 **running** 30:20,21 131:1 **runs** 63:10 **Rupam** 2:11 6:12 8:2 72:10 211:20 **S S**  5:1 143:1 ,1 ,1 **S.W** 1:9 **Sachs** 2:19 7:10,10 21:4,5 ,10 23:2 27:8 ,9,9 28:15 30:15 31:17 33:8 34:11 37:7 43:4 44:9,9 48:18 ,22 50:14 53:9 55:1 ,2 55:2 61:15 ,18 93:17 ,17 96:15 97:4 102:4 105:4 107:8 111:13 113:13 126:1 127:12 128:10 132:18 135:20 136:19 142:11 153:16 154:8 170:12 171:9 183:8 190:10

192:3 ,22 204:13 204:18 205:1 208:19 210:7 211:8 **safe** 104:4 212:6 **safety** 140:2 **sales** 74:10 75:12,13 77:1 157:17 ,19 159:13 ,14,17 198:11 **saluted** 209:6 **sample** 20:6 58:19 84:6,7 ,9 85:22 87:7 117:5 177:2 205:4 **samples** 143:13 **sat** 21:10 **satisfies** 84:20 **satisfy** 84:11 **saturation** 165:15 168:14 **saturations** 165:22 **save** 104:14 155:4 **saved** 155:4 **savings** 19:11 33:6 36:1 83:17 155:12 156:8 161:19 163:8 172:8 ,10,16 172:22 173:2,8,9 173:18 174:2,3 ,9 177:17 ,20 178:2,8 180:22 181:1 ,2 182:4,4,7 ,12,17 182:20,22 183:7 183:14 186:2,9 197:5 ,8 198:7 200:14 205:6 **saw** 21:1 166:16 176:22 195:18 **saying** 52:17 ,18 82:14 179:16 186:1 ,4 203:22 **says** 21:6 22:1 49:17 **scale** 74:2 82:19 **scaling** 67:21 **scare** 48:19 **scared** 30:15 49:10 **scenario** 174:21 **scenarios** 112:19 200:7 ,8 208:1 **schedule** 104:8 114:17 201:5 **schedules** 114:22 **schools** 113:20 127:14 183:12 205:4

**scope** 18:22 19:10 25:5 178:22 179:4 **screen** 11:21 34:21 38:3 ,18 39:2 **screening** 9:1 15:19 17:19 34:20,20 35:7 ,18,20 36:7 **searching** 80:20 **season** 141:11 **seats** 72:6 **SEC** 196:14 **second** 13:3 14:19 15:18 17:18 18:17 25:6 28:21 56:2 77:19 84:15 90:18 95:19 102:10 140:6 187:11 ,14 188:18 191:8 208:20 **secondary** 84:14 95:15 103:3 112:5 **Secretary** 22:1 **section** 22:1 29:18 71:12 181:20 **sections** 97:1 148:1 **sector** 75:9,11 197:10 199:10 **sectors** 199:7 **secured** 142:4 **security** 74:22 142:6 **see** 5:11 8:12 11:18 11:21 17:2,22 20:3 ,9,18 26:1 ,10 30:2,12,13 33:14 33:16 40:13 ,14 41:18 43:12 51:5 59:3 60:12 64:4 65:2 68:14 75:21 83:8 94:12 96:3 97:1 105:7 110:1 130:15 142:10 149:3 161:9,10,18 167:3 ,11 ,16 191:22 197:20 200:21 202:9 207:4 210:4 212:5 **seeing** 52:16 102:7 130:13 162:2 **seek** 128:12 **seeking** 189:17 **seeks** 25:4,7 76:8 ,10 92:3 ,5 ,7 ,11 93:5 106:19 128:1 ,4,6 134:17 139:1 145:19 146:1

149:9 157:1 168:3 168:5 198:14 **seen** 12:12 60:1 94:2 104:17 151:9 164:22 166:4 204:6 **segment** 163:17 **segments** 141:17 **select** 31:10 **selected** 115:16 184:20 **selection** 122:1 ,7 167:22 195:8 ,14 **selections** 112:18 **self-service** 153:5 **sell** 81:17 **seller** 170:3 **selling** 34:16 36:19 54:5 61:1 ,3 63:13 73:8 ,9,14,15 ,18 73:21 80:10 100:21 **send** 135:7 **sense** 45:16 49:2 60:6,6 67:9 96:3 133:11 161:3 184:18 **sensitive** 22:12 139:9 171:22 192:6 **sensitivities** 171:19 **sensors** 58:9 **sent** 153:9 **separate** 39:6 40:5 64:22 75:16 101:7 144:10 **separated** 39:13 ,14 39:22 55:21 **separately** 50:12 74:11 ,17 140:12 156:13 **September** 14:11 **series** 172:3 194:5 202:22 **serious** 192:16 **serve** 84:8 **service** 146:13 ,16 147:5 148:13 153:6,10 **Services** 7:5 55:3 **servicing** 137:12 **set** 21:7 37:11 43:16 47:12 66:15 101:4 104:8 125:20 171:1 194:17Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 234 **sets** 34:22 **setting** 19:18 119:16 **seven** 15:8 ,16 **seven-** 178:14 **SGMDHW** 38:22 **share** 10:5 11:11 27:15 53:3 76:13 78:21 175:8 ,9,15 175:21 **shares** 175:4 **shell** 33:9 86:17 ,19 **shift** 33:16 190:21 **shipment** 101:17 168:10 169:2,3 ,8 169:9 170:9 **shipment's** 179:22 **shipment-weighted** 93:8 101:16 **shipments** 4:10 44:4 44:5 51:5 72:17 93:9 102:20 162:14,16,21 163:2,3 ,4,12,15 163:17 164:5 ,8,9 164:11 ,12,12,15 164:17 ,18 ,18 165:1 ,2,3 ,4,9,13 165:22 167:1 ,4,16 167:20 168:1 ,2,4 168:7 170:21 173:13 174:9 186:21 **shipped** 163:14 172:7 **shop** 71:21 142:8 ,9 **short** 72:4 **shorter** 151:19 152:13 207:15 **show** 27:17 76:3 150:18 208:2 **showed** 58:1 59:15 **showing** 50:2 58:21 167:10 176:11 **shown** 155:18 **shows** 20:20 23:8 35:7 76:1 91:20 117:6 160:2 167:4 175:17 **side** 138:11 150:4 153:21 158:18 210:12 **sidebar** 10:8 **sidewalls** 137:16 **signal** 31:4 **significant** 26:6 32:12 45:16 109:12 121:7 126:19 127:22 129:4,12 130:6 136:22 195:15 196:2 **significantly** 54:2 68:19 161:19 **silent** 10:7 ,8 **similar** 49:16 59:1 138:9 166:11 ,16 **similarly** 56:18 57:5 166:20 **simple** 101:10 **simplification** 111:6 111:11 **simply** 114:8 175:20 210:19 **simulation** 117:1 192:9 **simulations** 191:5 **Singla** 2:11 6:13 8:2 8:2 72:10,11 ,14 77:7 78:6 79:8 ,19 80:12,17 83:12 89:13 ,17 90:18 91:6 92:21 101:22 105:20 106:4,10 106:15 111:4 116:6 119:9 120:16 121:14 122:2,9,20 127:20 134:17 139:1 143:7 148:10 154:11 157:8 159:21 161:7 162:3 ,15 172:4 176:5 ,16 177:8 179:1 ,5 ,19 181:4 181:8 193:19 196:6,20 198:2,18 199:15 **single** 23:18 93:1 102:9,18,18 113:10 118:8 139:17 162:6 167:12 **singular** 43:16 **site** 83:19 147:6 173:14 197:10 **sits** 104:19 **sitting** 16:18 25:16 104:9 **situation** 30:9 46:4 95:14 98:18 110:11 120:2,6 131:11 202:15

**situations** 119:19 121:10 **six** 13:7 ,9 26:15 46:16 110:21 123:17 135:10 160:5 **size** 14:3 18:16 44:2 46:5 51:10,12 64:2,5 66:1 67:21 69:11 71:11 98:18 98:19,19,20 140:22 141:8 147:16 176:9 188:15 **sized** 133:6 **sizes** 52:8 53:15 55:5 64:21 65:1 68:3 81:7 99:5 **sizing** 82:2 93:15 ,19 96:19 98:13 107:10 **skewed** 43:12 **skewing** 77:5 **skill** 98:16 **slide** 8:13 21:6 23:8 26:14,17 28:6 35:1 36:11 41:6 58:17 ,17 64:3 75:14 82:13 90:12 140:20 143:6 145:3 ,6 148:20 153:3 155:16 160:21 161:6,15 168:11 ,12 178:8 179:10 181:19 197:21 201:4 203:8 211:11 **slides** 12:3 13:17 39:15 141:16 178:6 195:18 **slight** 143:3 **slightly** 94:11 **slope** 56:2 57:8 ,13 57:14,16 **small** 14:3 ,7 18:17 19:10 20:8 ,13 39:1 41:19 47:2 48:10,11 ,15 50:3 50:5 ,22 52:14 55:19 57:3 ,6,12 58:22 64:5 65:10 65:15 68:22 78:15 79:7 85:19 102:13 103:20 110:8 112:14 125:21 129:22 131:10

137:9 138:14 144:11 145:22 160:4 166:17 ,19 167:14 176:10,13 189:6,7 ,14,18 192:2,5 ,6,7 ,16 205:4 **small-sized** 44:1 ,1 57:9,9 64:5 **smaller** 33:20 51:14 64:22 79:20 81:7 82:17 ,22 110:8 111:16 123:17 129:8 130:9,14 133:10 148:5 **smallest** 46:1 **snapshot** 37:9,18 **snide** 62:2 **so-called** 112:5 **social** 197:16 **software** 10:11 193:12 **sold** 159:4 **Solutions** 2:2 5:10 6:18 **somebody** 63:20 66:17 95:19 137:13 **somebody's** 32:3 **something's** 104:11 **somewhat** 21:13 94:5 **sophisticated** 151:18 192:18 **sophistication** 100:18 **sorry** 15:21 39:11 41:4 42:8 54:16 67:15 102:3 122:4 122:10 143:3 167:2 168:13 170:14 197:8 **sort** 49:1 56:7 71:6 138:1 154:4 **sorts** 31:1 **sound** 81:2 82:11 **sounds** 50:5 ,9 **source** 37:4 84:14 111:16 156:18 ,21 173:15 188:22 192:9 **sources** 6:3 37:3 61:10 74:13 92:11 149:3 157:5 164:10 168:1 **space** 83:21 84:17

85:21 87:18 ,20 89:21 90:3 ,16,20 90:21 91:14 106:20 108:14 109:16 113:15 138:19,19 **space-** 13:15 **space-heating** 90:15 **speak** 9:22 10:4,12 **speaking** 49:12 98:11 127:3 **specific** 49:14 59:21 64:9 67:8 119:1 138:16 147:11 160:22 197:20 **specifically** 119:18 145:21 149:6 **specified** 143:16 144:3 ,7 **specifies** 109:1 **specifying** 109:13 **speculate** 129:2 **spell** 22:15 **spend** 151:11 **spending** 104:2 **spent** 30:16 **spirit** 208:20 **split** 85:13 90:22 166:3 **spot** 31:13 **sprays** 23:12 **spreadsheet** 116:22 184:22 199:6 200:6 **square** 54:14,15 ,17 54:18 134:1 **square-foot** 54:16 **squeeze** 27:1 **stack** 24:8 **staff** 145:20 **staff's** 147:13 **stage** 23:18 ,18 28:9 57:21 187:9,12 188:3 189:12 211:2 **staging** 95:11 99:15 **stainless** 24:3 123:5 123:14,18 128:2,7 128:14 130:13 136:3 ,11 ,15 137:18 153:21 **stakeholder** 74:18 **stakeholders** 11:4 70:20 **stance** 68:10 210:17Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 235 **stand** 14:9 186:1 **standard** 13:2 22:2 29:21 30:3 ,17 31:7 32:14,20 34:17 37:15 41:7 41:13 66:8 ,15 68:4,5 135:6 136:15 145:17 157:10,11 ,13 175:2,5 179:14 188:20 194:15 195:15 196:3 198:5 200:13 202:8 ,14,15 210:6 211:4 **standardized** 192:9 **standards** 1:2 3:7 5:6 6:15 13:7 ,19 19:13 21:21 25:18 29:5 37:17 38:8 39:13 ,14 73:4,22 116:11 163:10,15 163:22 164:9 168:6 172:6,12,13 172:19,20,22 173:9,22 174:4,15 174:16,17 ,20 175:1 187:2,18 ,21 188:8 189:5 ,11 ,15 190:8 ,12,20 192:15 194:16 196:10,17 197:3 ,8 197:14 199:4,11 199:20 200:1 201:8 ,19 205:9 209:21 210:9,9 **standards-case** 172:14 **standby** 19:12,14 91:16,16 94:4 133:18 205:14 **standpoint** 29:8 185:22 186:5 **Stanonik** 2:6 7:8 ,8 16:1 ,2,2 25:13 ,14 25:14 26:18 ,20 29:17 ,17 32:10,10 33:6 41:5 ,5 ,11 ,16 42:18 45:1 55:12 55:13 59:17 61:22 63:6,6 78:2,2 94:11 100:9,9 101:20 105:14,14 106:3 ,6,12 107:19 108:16,16 109:17 109:17 114:12,13 119:21 ,22 131:5

140:18 ,18 149:22 149:22 151:12 158:11 ,11 161:13 161:13 162:8 168:9,9 176:3 ,6,6 176:20 180:20,20 181:5 195:10,10 201:1 ,2,2 202:17 209:13 ,13 210:21 210:21 **Stanonik's** 49:1 ,18 **Star** 164:21 **start** 5:12 6:22 12:19 17:10 26:22 64:19 65:22 72:2 85:22 127:16 130:13 136:21 142:10 146:9 **started** 13:1 31:20 45:11 104:20 137:3 **starting** 96:19 143:4 **starts** 46:1 163:16 165:19,21 **Stas** 2:9 6:15 7:14 7:14 21:19,20,20 22:17 43:1 201:22 201:22 202:19 **state** 7:1 81:13 144:14 154:15 ,17 154:19,21 ,21 **State's** 154:22 **stated** 173:7 188:13 189:9 209:8 **statement** 11:15 26:12 136:12 151:14 **statements** 8:17 11:9,11 75:3 **states** 1:1 5:5 62:4 70:9 77:12,16 93:7 178:3 **stating** 133:3 205:19 **statistical** 47:6 **status** 177:5 **statutory** 203:13 **steam** 14:5 ,7 ,7 18:19 19:6 39:11 48:5 ,5 ,15 ,16 51:15 54:11 85:3 85:6 90:11 ,13 91:2 97:13 ,14,17 97:18 138:13 144:10 146:11 ,14

146:22 147:1 ,4,21 147:22 152:8 165:6 166:12 205:5 **steamed** 183:15 **steel** 24:3 123:5 ,14 123:18 128:2,7 136:11 ,16 153:20 153:21 **step** 18:12 38:5 40:9 47:10 56:7 ,9 72:19 129:22 162:20 **stepping** 78:6 **steps** 4:11 6:4 9:15 37:22 38:2 46:16 104:22 193:17 ,18 **stillborn** 30:18 **stock** 163:19,20 164:1 173:1 ,13 174:10 182:8 ,9 183:3 **stood** 96:20 **strain** 188:11 190:14 **street** 96:21 **stretch** 149:18 **strictly** 134:10 **strip** 49:8 **strong** 31:4 45:6 103:2 201:18 **strongly** 205:2 209:18 **struck** 21:14 **structure** 45:14 170:2 206:4 **structures** 45:19 190:2 **studied** 86:4 88:6 116:11 172:9 **studies** 92:15 **stuff** 49:13 55:10 104:18 142:5 147:8 ,12 170:7 **subgroup** 194:7 196:8 ,9 **subgroups** 189:22 192:2 196:11 ,13 196:15 ,16 **submit** 11:1 12:6 34:12 69:16 77:9 **subsequent** 187:16 **subset** 62:22 **substantial** 82:19 94:7 **substantially**

207:14 208:16 **substantiate** 150:12 **substituting** 114:8 **subtract** 47:16 56:21 **subtracted** 58:10,13 **Subway** 142:8 **successfully** 36:6 **sudden** 141:6 **sufficient** 46:12 48:2,3 **sufficiently** 9:19 203:6 **suggest** 128:11 141:19 191:19 **suggested** 9:21 61:15 126:20 **suggesting** 50:14,15 **suggestion** 43:2 135:18 **suitable** 69:10 **sulfur** 197:11 **sum** 83:21 116:14 117:10,15 **summary** 58:18 66:7 ,16 67:1 ,8 **summed** 116:17 118:1 173:10 174:1 **supplied** 115:3 **supplies** 198:5 **supply** 28:3 83:3 88:17 92:6 **supplying** 81:21 **support** 49:17 78:16 154:4 184:22 208:6 **supportive** 205:2 **suppose** 57:11 **supposed** 201:7 **sure** 11:7 17:10 22:9 62:7 78:5 96:10 100:11 127:18 141:22 147:1 154:5 179:7 180:21 201:3 **surface** 24:17 35:11 54:15 ,19 185:14 185:21 **surprised** 60:11 94:17 **surrounding** 9:9 **survey** 84:11 ,19 85:12 87:2 90:8 135:6 136:20 143:19 153:8

154:4 **surveys** 84:8 85:12 89:19 **survive** 192:8 **suspect** 49:2 50:22 55:10 128:16 **suspicion** 45:6 **switches** 81:10 **switching** 104:10 166:2 **system** 23:13 ,14 32:18 58:4,5 62:16 89:1 97:18 97:21 98:22 100:17 ,19 109:7 110:5 ,11 ,12,18 ,19 111:5 ,18,22 112:16 120:8 ,9 125:4,12,13 ,16 126:7 ,19 127:5 ,7 128:19,21 129:11 177:18 182:9 198:8 205:7 **systems** 62:5 97:13 97:14 98:4 102:17 105:10 107:12 109:3 110:18 112:16 113:19 120:18 125:19 126:7 183:12,13 183:18 203:18 **T T**  143:1 **table** 51:5 64:5 66:11 67:3 ,4 74:13 76:1 160:2 178:1 ,10,13 **tables** 40:14 178:6,7 178:17 180:17 **take** 9:2,12 25:1 30:5 42:16 52:12 53:11 56:17 ,22 57:13 ,15 65:2 68:5 70:6 71:17 72:5 87:1 107:10 141:19 157:11 177:9 179:21 185:2 187:12 202:13 **taken** 72:4 142:14 185:15 ,16,19 199:9 **takes** 98:15 99:7 116:20 117:2Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 236 186:19 **talk** 12:13 15:20 38:3 74:6 83:14 87:11 99:22 110:15 111:2 117:14,17 ,21 119:10 122:2,10 128:20 143:7 162:16 168:12 196:20 **talked** 19:3 53:14 64:20 68:2 73:9 77:19 79:5 ,15 86:1 107:19 117:12,20 140:19 153:3 162:18 210:1 **talking** 15:15 45:9 45:11 72:14 78:4 107:8 110:4,16 111:3 ,4 114:16 120:1 125:3 132:13 136:2 195:12 198:22 201:13 **tank** 114:9 **target** 146:12 **targets** 200:3 **tax** 74:10 75:12,13 77:1 200:1 ,2 **tax-exempt** 77:3 **team** 6:12 **tear** 70:15 104:20 **teasing** 102:6 **tech** 15:18 17:19 24:21 40:10,11 42:12,13 46:21 186:20 196:4 **technical** 7:5 78:16 105:7 143:4 184:22 211:21 **technically** 212:2 **technique** 150:6 **techniques** 47:6 57:18 **technological** 35:2 36:5 **technologies** 34:21 37:11 ,15 38:11 93:13 149:16 195:5 **technology** 9:1 17:21 18:10 24:13 24:19 25:5 26:4 26:11 27:22 35:6 36:6 149:17 150:3 188:21

**teed** 29:3 **Telephone** 3:3 **telephones** 10:10 **temperature** 88:16 88:18 89:1 ,14,15 92:6,6,8 98:9 99:16,17 112:3 114:1 120:11 122:22 126:6,6 127:6 129:11 ,18 133:1 ,18,19,20 134:5 ,6,8 182:10 182:18 ,19 183:4 183:12,13 **temperatures** 89:3 89:11 98:10 120:22 121:3 ,19 125:11 ,11 183:22 204:8 **ten** 13:21 18:13 25:16 26:15 46:2 49:4 50:10 51:11 52:20 53:5 ,10 54:16 79:15 93:12 98:18 ,19 102:13 132:14 145:11 158:8 205:5 ,5 **ten-year** 87:3 **tend** 69:19 138:20 151:19 168:22 **tens** 45:11 ,12 **tentative** 25:8 **terminate** 134:20 **terms** 62:9 71:1 169:7 191:14 203:13 209:2 **test** 14:19 15:1 16:5 16:10,22 17:7 27:13 ,16 28:11 ,16 28:16 29:4,7 ,7 ,21 32:12,22 34:5 35:7 ,18,20,22 36:7 88:14,14 92:9,9 188:9 190:12 191:18 209:18 211:1 ,5 **tested** 22:10 92:8 **testing** 65:12 68:14 68:15 ,17 ,19 188:13 189:10 190:11 191:5 192:4 **thank** 6:21 8:7 17:13 22:22 23:3 27:4 28:1 33:5 34:10,18 37:20,21

40:6,7 42:22 43:3 43:9 44:22 46:7 50:14 52:1 55:12 61:6,20 64:14,17 69:17 77:22 80:2 82:7 83:6,7 89:16 91:5 94:10 100:7 101:15 105:3 ,13 108:5 112:12 116:4 135:19 139:8 140:5 ,13 148:8 151:5 152:1 152:22 159:21 161:5 170:11 171:7 180:16 184:5 ,6,14,15 185:5 ,6 192:20 200:20 204:12 205:10 206:11 208:18 211:11 ,17 211:18 ,20 212:1 ,6 **thanks** 8:7 22:22 34:8 36:13 125:22 127:11 153:15 154:7 185:8 196:5 205:13 **theme** 202:8 **theory** 109:5 **thermal** 20:12,21 24:14 25:6 87:13 87:17 88:1 ,3 ,7 ,9 88:12,13 ,19 89:5 89:8 90:5 ,8 **thing** 12:20 22:11 28:11 38:10 62:22 63:9,21 64:12 65:10 66:4 68:10 84:22 85:10 107:9 152:6 169:12,19 192:3 203:2 205:18 209:17 **things** 25:22 26:8 62:4 68:21 69:3 70:12 81:11 94:14 95:4 97:3 ,8 109:7 114:14 135:9 136:5 138:20 147:10 153:18 185:13 202:11 ,13 203:14 205:12 208:5 210:2,13 **think** 9:18 22:12 23:2 25:15 26:4 27:13 ,20 31:4 33:2,10,11 ,13 ,16 34:1 ,3 37:17

39:15 ,21 42:15 ,18 43:4 44:20 45:12 46:2 51:4,16 61:2 62:21 64:21 66:2 66:13 68:1 71:8 71:14 80:9 94:2 94:13 95:5 ,6,8,13 95:22 96:4,8,11 97:6,21 100:13 101:1 102:7 ,22 103:9 105:5 107:7 107:9,14 108:10 108:19,22 109:10 109:11 ,18 112:4,6 113:11 114:14,21 115:6 124:22 125:8 126:20 127:9 128:18 130:14,17 131:5 ,7 132:1 ,9,17 133:2 135:11 136:5 ,20 140:19 141:12 142:2 146:15 ,21 147:5 150:12,16 152:3 ,10,19 153:2 159:22 168:15 ,17 169:6,10,21 170:1 171:14 176:10 180:20 181:14 182:15 183:9,21 191:13 ,13 ,20 195:12,14,17 ,19 196:1 201:6,20 202:3 ,7 205:15 207:7 ,8,12 208:13 209:8 ,14 210:1 211:2,10 **thinking** 37:19 102:4 111:14 136:20 204:20 **third** 18:18 36:16 84:17 187:11 ,17 **thought** 98:16 135:2 181:13 **thoughts** 27:5 28:2 78:18 100:8 140:16 148:9 192:1 195:9 211:1 **three** 18:14 35:13 45:9 46:5 50:7 ,13 51:10 52:19 65:3 79:4,7 ,13 84:11 84:20 97:1 112:18 139:18 ,18 160:18 164:5 168:22 187:3 192:1 ,21

195:3 ,20 **three-page** 67:4 **three-percent** 178:11 **threshold** 79:11 **thrive** 192:8 **thrown** 134:15 **thumb** 132:3 **time** 9:22 10:4,6,15 11:8 ,10,15 12:12 15:3 ,5 16:3 ,7 22:8 30:5 ,14,20,21 31:15 32:17 34:3 34:12 37:9 44:16 55:14 67:1 70:19 71:15 82:5 86:10 87:5 94:16 96:20 99:17 103:19,22 105:2,18 ,22 106:10 116:20 121:12 129:21 130:18 133:2,10 147:19 160:15 ,17 174:5 ,14 193:16 201:13 202:9,20 **timely** 210:18 **times** 64:19 130:5 171:4 **tiny** 182:20 **today** 5:8 ,14 6:12 9:7 10:19 12:1 ,13 12:15 26:3 32:22 72:14,16 100:15 109:1 117:18 139:10 157:9,19 158:12 176:15 183:3 187:8 193:20 195:16 196:3 207:16 210:12 **today's** 6:8 ,17 12:2 211:14 **told** 193:2 **Tom** 126:3 183:11 **tool** 199:5 **tools** 172:1 **top** 85:5 **topic** 15:18 17:18 36:16 **total** 81:19 116:12 116:14 117:8 ,10 118:4,5 ,6 125:18 129:12 163:18 164:2 165:16 172:17 173:19,20Energy Conservation Standards: Preliminary Analysis For Commercial Packaged Boilers Meeting December 9, 2014

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 237 174:8 ,10,11 178:20 179:1 ,12 179:21 180:1 181:2 **totally** 28:17 46:3 133:14 168:20 **touch** 105:6 **touched** 93:15 98:8 137:5 **tout** 54:6 **track** 105:16 **trade** 18:5 60:9 141:18 **trade-off** 129:20 **traded** 82:15 ,17 **traditional** 70:7 125:14 151:15 **trains** 33:20 **transcript** 10:4 **transcripts** 55:8 ,11 **transfer** 23:21 24:5 112:9 185:14 186:8 **transferred** 24:7 **transfers** 23:20 **translates** 150:14 **translation** 191:9 **travels** 212:6 **treat** 112:8 **tremendously** 204:10 **trend** 51:16 86:7 118:2 155:19,21 166:5 ,9,11 ,14,16 168:20,21 176:22 177:2 200:10 **trends** 111:15 158:1 158:2,9 164:22 166:4 168:15 175:7 176:16 **trial** 41:7 ,13 194:15 195:14 196:3 **tried** 32:18 53:9 **Triple** 37:8 **trouble** 67:16 102:16 111:14 154:3 **True** 204:17 ,19 **try** 59:22 60:9,19 92:17 94:12 96:2 108:10 129:10,18 132:7 158:12,15 170:8 171:13 **trying** 17:3 ,4 62:1 71:10 115:22 125:2 169:5 195:17 201:3

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### 240

TRANCRIPTION CERTIFICATE

As a professional transcriber, I certify that the attached document(s) are, to the best of my abilities, an accurate transcription of tape recordings provided to the company, given the quality of the provided tape recording(s), and that I have no financial or other interest in the proceedings to which they pertain.