JEPARTMENT OF 

'•RAM3P0RTATIQN 

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA . lOCKcT OPERATIONS 

+ + + + + 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

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PRE-HEARING CONFERENCE 

P 2-- 29 

IN THE MATTER OF 

COLGAN AIR, INC. 

FAA Docket No 

CP09EA0018 

DMS Docket No 

FAA-2009-0582 

Wednesday, 

July 13, 2011 

The above-entitled matter came on for 

hearing, pursuant to notice, via 

teleconference at 3:00 p.m. Eastern Daylight 

Time. 

BEFORE: 

THE HONORABLE RONNIE A. YODER 

Chief Administrative Law Judge 

JUL 2 8 2011 

HEARfNG DOCKET 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

CHRISTIAN L. LEWERENZ, ESQ. 

of: FAA Office of the Regional Counsel, 

AEA-7 

1 Aviation Plaza 

Jamaica, NY 11434 

(718) 553-3273 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

MARK A. DOMBROFF, ESQ. 

of : Dombroff Gilmore Jaques & French P.C 

16 76 International Drive 

Penthouse 

McLean, VA 22102 

(703) 336-8700 

BRIAN T. HUNT, ESQ. 

of: Pinnacle Airlines Corp. 

1689 Nonconnah Boulevard 

Memphis, Tennessee 38132 

(901) 348-4100 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

{202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
PROCEEDING S 

2:59 p.m. 

JUDGE YODER: This is a 

4 Prehearing Telephone Conference in the matter 

5 of Colgan Air, Inc., FAA Docket No. 

CP09EA0018. 

And on the phone we have for the 

Complainant, Christian Lewerenz. And for the 

9 Respondent, Mark A. Dombroff and Brian Hunt. 

10 We also have a Court Reporter who 

11 will transcribe the proceeding. A copy of the 

12 transcript automatically goes to the Judge and 

13 to the Compliant counsel because the FAA pays 

14 for it. 

15 Mr. Dombroff, if you need a copy 

16 of the transcript, you'll need to raise that 

17 with the Court Reporter. Okay? 

18 MR. DOMBROFF: We will do so, 

19 Judge. Thank you. 

20 JUDGE YODER: Okay. Certainly. 

21 Now I have belatedly received some 

22 of the documents that you folks exchanged. I 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISU^ND AVE.. N.W. 

{202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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wasn't sure what was unclear about my Order. 

The Order stated that we should receive the 

documents by June 2 8th. Not that they should 

be sent by June 28th, but that we should 

receive them by June 28th. I don't think 

anybody did that. 

We don't send things to me by 

regular mail or it takes two weeks to get them 

here. So if you're going to mail things, they 

need to go by an express delivery service. 

And our dates are always receive dates. 

And this was not the first time we 

had set a date for a receipt of these 

documents. In fact, there have been four 

previous dates for receipt of these documents 

back in 2010, and we still didn't receive 

them. 

So a word to the wise should be 

sufficient. I hope it will be and we won't 

see a repeat of this. 

Now we did in the most recent 

document receive answers to the Complainant's 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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interrogatories. I gather there were no 

answers to Respondent's interrogatories, is 

that correct? 

Judge. 

MR. DOMBROFF: That's correct, 

This is Mark Dombroff. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. And do I 

understand that that was because there was an 

agreement there shouldn't be any? 

Judge. 

MR. DOMBROFF: That's correct, 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. Fin^ . 

Now I did find some -- in one 

submission and not in the other, and I want to 

make sure everybody's on the same page with 

respect to these things. So let me just look 

here quickly. 

I had one document that was in 

Respondent's and not in the Complainant's 

submission. And that would be Report No. 

2 008EA2 70054 Investigative Report. I'm sure 

you have that, Mr. Lewerenz? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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MR. LEWERENZ: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: And it wasn't in the 

documents you sent me. 

MR. LEWERENZ: What I sent you was 

a copy of the Enforcement Investigative 

Report, 2008EA2700054. 

JUDGE YODER: I mean I understand. 

But the cover document apparently was not in 

the documents that we got. 

MR. LEWERENZ: Oh, okay. 

JUDGE YODER: There was apparently 

a single sheet. 

MR. LEWERENZ: Oh. 

JUDGE YODER: RISFO2150-1. 

MR. LEWERENZ: Okay. 

understand. Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: All right. But then 

there are a number of documents that were in 

what you sent and not in what the Complainant 

sent. Did you send them all the things you 

sent to me when you sent them to me? 

MR. LEWERENZ: I -- let me see. I 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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had sent a copy. I don't know. I did not have 

a copy sent of what we sent to you, which was 

the EIR and the and the Order. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. Then let me 

just go down the list here because there's 

some things here that were not in what 

Respondent sent. 

And firstly, there's the Summary 

of 14 CFR Violations. I'm sure that 

Respondent has or is aware of that document. 

And speak up if you have a problem 

with anything of this, Mr. Dombroff. 

MR. DOMBROFF: We're looking right 

now. Judge, to see if we got a document. And 

obviously we're aware --

JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

MR. DOMBROFF: -- but we've got a 

document that is in anyway captioned that. 

JUDGE YODER: If you don't have 

any of these, then Mr. Lewerenz will send them 

to you as soon as we get off the line. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Absolutely, Judge. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealfgross.com 
1 And maybe the best thing to do is to the 

2 extent that you have a list of documents that 

3 were in one submission but not the other, if 

4 you could just state those for us. And then 

5 rather then take your time right now, Mr. 

6 Lewerenz and I can talk after this call and we 

7 can confirm as to whether we have it or not in 

8 our file already and then get it if we don't. 

9 JUDGE YODER: That's fine. I have 

10 nine of these, and that was the first one I 

11 just mentioned. 

12 MR. DOMBROFF: Okay. 

13 JUDGE YODER: The second is 

14 Factors Affecting Sanction. 

15 The third is titled Other 

16 Information Relating to Reliability of 

17 Evidence, Conflicting Evidence, Opinions and 

18 Summarized Conclusion and Recommendation. 

19 The next one is a Memorandum, 

20 dated June 12, 2008, Manager of the Technical 

21 Branch from the Manager of the Washington 

22 FSBO. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N W. 

WASHINGTON, D C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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MR. DOMBROFF: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: And it concerns an 

Aviation Safety Hotline Complaint forwarded to 

their office on May 16, 2008. Okay? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Right. 

JUDGE YODER: The next one is a 

charge sheet from AT&T indicating the calls 

made by Mr. Coats. It's styled Exhibit 11, 

but it does not have the telephone numbers 

redacted on it. The one. you sent us did. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes. I'm looking 

at the that you sent me. 

JUDGE YODER: The next one is an 

exchange of emails from Captain Wood to John 

Leshok, dated June 5, 2008. And Leshok's 

reply. That's styled Exhibit 14. 

And Exhibit 15 is similarly from 

Mr. Woods to John Leshok. 

MR. DOMBROFF: I know. Judge. I 

don't mean to interrupt you. Mark Domdroff 

speaking. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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MR. DOMBROFF: I'm looking, and 

for example I don't have -- we have the file 

here or the Investigative Report and it goes -

- our copy of it goes from Exhibit 13 to 

Exhibit 17. So that's --

JUDGE YODER: Okay. Fourteen, 15, 

16. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Right. 

JUDGE YODER: And 16 is, again, a 

record of telephone call attempts. 

MR. DOMBROFF: All right and last 

one is Exhibit 22, which is an Airman 

Information Reported. And it's - - it says 

"Page 1 of 1" on each of two pages. And the 

first one is Airman Information Reported, the 

second one is Certificate Details. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes. Again, I'm 

looking. I have Exhibit 22 but I have Page 1 

of 1 but I only have a single page under that 

exhibit. 

So, I think we can work this out 

with Mr. Lewerenz. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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JUDGE YODER: Please do. I just 

wanted to make sure we were all on the same 

page. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Thank you. Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

We couldn't do this without our 

wonderful intern assistants which we get 

gratis because we can't hire enough attorneys 

to do this thing. 

In any event, one of the documents 

that was sent to me was the case of Sturgell 

vs. Angstadt. That was sent to me by 

Complainant's counsel, I guess. And I'm sure 

you're aware of that, Mr. Dombroff? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. I am. 

JUDGE YODER: And no one made me 

aware of it until I got this copy of the 

decision. I'm not sure why that is. 

You of course understand, that 

that case essentially relates to the same 

facts and circumstances at issue here, is that 

right? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

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MR. DOMBROFF: That is essentially 

correct, sir. But I think there's something of 

a twist on it. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Mr. Angstadt, Jared 

Angstadt, was the captain of the aircraft that 

was involved. Mr. Coats, who you referenced 

from some of these documents, was the first 

officer. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

MR. DOMBROFF: This is sort of an 

unusual case in certainly my experience with 

representing airlines in that the first 

officer had been summoned to the company 

unrelated to this event in connection with 

unrelated performance issues by him. It was 

subsequent to that that he advised the company 

of alleged conduct by the captain, Mr. 

Angstadt, regarding the weight balance and the 

manifest. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, as I gather, 

it was not for want of trying that he didn't 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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get through to the company. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Apparently they did 

not connect, that's correct, Judge. But--

JUDGE YODER: But when you say 

"they did not connect," he called your head 

pilot and didn't get a response three times, 

is that what the record shows? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I believe that's 

correct. I believe that's correct. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

MR. DOMBROFF: And when they did 

hook up, he gave his information to the 

company. The company called in Captain 

Angstadt, interviewed Captain Angstadt who had 

no history of issues, problems, performance or 

otherwise with the company. The company 

interviewed him. The company reviewed the 

paperwork. And after weighing the information 

they had, they concluded that the First 

Officer Coats, who had performance issues and 

problems, was not credible and not to be 

believed since the paperwork did not --

{202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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JUDGE YODER: You're introducing 

an awful lot of statements, Mr. Dombroff that 

aren't in any of the documents I've seen. 

MR. DOMBROFF: I understand. 

Judge. And the reason I' m raising it is 

because it impacts the decision, the Angstadt 

decision --

JUDGE YODER: How? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, in the sense 

that there was a determination made subsequent 

to the FAA getting involved by way of its 

investigation that Captain Angstadt was lying 

to the company. It was based upon the 

determination that Captain Angstadt was lying 

to the company when the company investigated 

this matter. That the company terminated 

Captain Angstadt's employment --

JUDGE YODER: Where is the report 

of that Captain Angstadt made to the company? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I think there's a -

-I'll have to go back, Judge. It wouldn't be 

part of this file and determine what is in the 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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Angstadt - - in Captain Angstadt or former 

Captain Angstadt's file --

JUDGE YODER: Why would it not be 

part of this file? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, because I 

think this file - - well, I don't know the 

answer to that, Judge. I don't. 

JUDGE YODER: Oh. 

MR. DOMBROFF: And I'll have to--

JUDGE YODER: Who is in charge 

over there, Mr. Dombroff? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I think that's a 

good question, Judge. And I think I'll only 

ask myself that. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

MR. DOMBROFF: But I think as soon 

as the company concluded after the FAA got 

involved with its badge, so to speak, that 

Captain Angstadt was lying, the company 

terminated him, the FAA revoked his 

certificate. And that the Order, the decision 

that you referenced which brings me full 

(202) 234-4433 

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circle, is what resulted. And it was 

subsequent to that that the Letter of 

Investigation and the proposed civil penalty 

and the civil penalty was presented to Colgan 

Air. 

So, you know the situation here as 

I said at the outset, and I realize that I'm 

introducing facts into this discussion that 

are not within the record before you 

presently, but certainly are going to be part 

of the record as this case goes forward. 

JUDGE YODER: But I haven't heard 

anything yet to tell me what is different 

about this from what was the fact at the time 

of the --

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, I think -- 1 

don't think it's so much different in terms of 

whether or not the aircraft was overweight and 

whether or not the captain lied about it and 

falsified the paperwork. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. So you're 

prepared to stipulate the facts a^s toixnd in 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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the previous case? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Excuse me, Judge? 

JUDGE YODER: You're prepared to 

stipulate the facts as found in the previous 

case? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I'd like to go over 

the language that presents those facts with 

some, you know eye towards whether I stipulate 

to all the language. But certainly the 

aircraft was overweight and the paperwork \^a.s 

incorrect. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. Well, that 

gets me a little ahead of where I intended to 

be. But can you tell me in what respect it 

was incorrect? 

•MR. DOMBROFF: Well, the captain 

fraudulently recorded the weights and then 

lied to the company about it. There was an 

additional passenger, a deadheading U.S. 

Airways captain onboard the aircraft and the 

captain lied to the company about that and 

then lied about the paperwork. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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JUDGE YODER: All right. Okay. 

So help me understand then what your defensive 

posture is here. That you aren't responsible 

for the action of your captain? 

MR. DOMBROFF. Well, I think the 

answer is as a general manager, yes, we' re 

responsible for the action of our captain when 

they're acting within the scope of their 

employment. 

JUDGE YODER: I mean, they are 

preparing a manifest? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, absolutely, 

when they prepare a manifest and if they don' t 

do it properly or they - - you know the 

procedure is faulty but they follow the 

procedure or we don't give them adequate 

training; yes, we're responsible. But I think 

our position here broadly speaking is that 

when the captain when we diligently, you know 

pursue the investigation and the captain lies 

to us and he has falsified the paperwork to 

cover up that lie, he's acting so far out of 

{202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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the scope of any employment that we' re not 

responsible at that point. We didn't have 

failure to train --

JUDGE YODER: You got some 

precedent for that, Mr. Dombroff? 

MR. DOMBROFF: And, Judge --

JUDGE YODER: You got some 

precedent for that? 

think --

MR. DOMBROFF: We will, yes. I 

JUDGE YODER: I don't mean will. 

I mean do you? 

MR. DOMBROFF: The answer is as I 

sit here now. Judge, no. But --

JUDGE YODER: But you filed a lot 

of papers here which apparently are based on 

that assumption, is that right? 

MR. DOMBROFF: That's correct. 

And we - -

JUDGE YODER: I'm not aware of any 

basis for such an assumption? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir, we are. 

(202) 234-4433 

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JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

MR. DOMBROFF: And it's true in 

the context of civil liability generally, and 

I' m not talking about FAA types of civil 

liability, civil penalties. But I'm talking 

about whether or not an employer is 

responsible in the context of civil liability 

when his or her or its employee steps so far 

outside the scope of their employment that 

it's not foreseeable, that's it of no benefit 

to the company. This was not a revenue 

passenger. He lied to the company --

JUDGE YODER: Well, was it only 

the j ump seat that put you over the weight 

limit? 

MR. DOMBROFF: He listed adults as 

children as well. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, then those 

people were revenue passengers. 

MR. DOMBROFF: They were, and he 

just lied to us. 

JUDGE YODER: Right. 

(202) 234-4433 

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MR. DOMBROFF: And it just --

JUDGE YODER: Have you ever known 

an employee to lie to an employer before? 

MR. DOMBROFF: In this particular 

type of situation. Judge, no . I have not had 

a situation where a company conducts an 

investigation of -- you know an alleged 

violation of its procedures in the regulation 

and the company -- and the employee ultimately 

it turns out not only lied to the 

investigator, but falsified the paperwork. 

JUDGE YODER: Do you have a copy 

of the report that you folks did as a result 

of your internal investigation? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I do not have it in 

front of me, Judge, no. 

JUDGE YODER: You do have such a 

report? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I will have to go 

back into that file and determine in what form 

it exists. Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Because that needs 

(202) 234-4433 

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to be provided to --

MR. DOMBROFF: Absolutely, I agree 

entirely. 

But if --

JUDGE YODER: I'm trying to figure 

out what this case is going to be about, Mr. 

Dombroff. 

MR. DOMBROFF: 

Judge. You know - -

Well, I agree. 

JUDGE YODER: Let me finish. One 

of the rules here is when I'm talking, 

everybody else shuts up. That' s just for 

convenience purposes. Because the reporter 

can only take one down at a time. 

So, we've had a lot of filings 

here purporting to contend that a lot of these 

things didn't happen that were alleged. Now 

you're basically telling me nolo contendere on 

the factual allegations and you got some kind 

of legal defense, is that right? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I think that's 

fair. Judge. I think - -

(202) 234-4433 

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motion. 

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MR. DOMBROFF: I don't disagree, 

Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, we may not be 

-- well, it depends on what we turn up in the 

course of this and what you propose to 

contend. Because, frankly, I' m concerned about 

some of the submissions that I have seen. And 

whether we go forward on that kind of factual 

basis or not, I want the entire record of the 

Sturgell case filed with me. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Absolutely, Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: And I don't know why 

it hasn't been done before now. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well - -

JUDGE YODER: Did someone assume 

that I wasn't going to think it was relevant? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Mark Dombroff. 

Judge. 

Colgan was not a party to the 

Sturgell case. 

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JUDGE YODER: Did you represent 

the captain, Angstadt? 

MR. DOMBROFF: No, sir. The 

company -- neither the company nor any of its 

counsel represented the captain. The only 

role that the company played is that, I think 

one or more witnesses - - I think it was one 

witness was subpoenaed to testify. But Captain 

Angstadt had private counsel. 

JUDGE YODER: Your witnesses were 

represented by your counsel? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I do not believe 

that any counsel accompanied the witness to 

the hearing. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

MR. DOMBROFF: And I believe the 

witness -- I'll have to go back and check 

this, because we do not have the record 

Angstadt proceeding --

JUDGE YODER: But I' m sure Mr. 

Lewerenz has it. 

Did you represent - -

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MR. LEWERENZ: Yes, I represented 

the Agency in that action. And --

JUDGE YODER: That's what lead me 

to conclude, you know just offhandedly, that 

you might have the record. 

MR. LEWERENZ: I do have the 

record of the case. And if you --

JUDGE YODER: I'm not sure why I 

don't. 

MR. LEWERENZ: Well, but the only 

thing I could recall from my notes that in the 

confines of this civil penalty case that we 

exchanged, and I didn't - - the best I could 

recall from my notes was the actual decision. 

And this was a strange case because Mr. 

Dombroff and I were actually talking about the 

issues in this case even before the notice of 

this case or the Order in the prior case went 

out. Because he represented the company in the 

course of the investigation. 

And the company official in the 

report that you have. Judge, Dean Bandavanis, 

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was the same company official that testified 

in the Respondent's case in that revocation of 

Angstadt. 

And I recall Mr. Dombroff coming 

to hearing, but at this point I couldn't put 

my hand on the Bible and swear to that. But--

JUDGE YODER: You attend the 

hearing, Mr. Dombroff? 

MR. DOMBROFF: No, sir. I did not. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. Good thing 

you didn't swear to it, Mr. Lewerenz. 

MR. LEWEREN2: My recall is 

faulty. And the hearing was almost three 

years, so -- and I've talked to Mr. Dombroff 

here and there about -the case but as early as 

when it was still in the investigatory stage, 

that's for sure. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. Well, let's 

come around to where we are on this. I'm going 

to need that record. I'm going to need a 

submission from you, Mr. Dombroff, as to any 

fact issues as to which you propose to provide 

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additional evidence. I'm not saying you would 

not provide the same evidence you did there, 

but additional evidence. And any of the 

factual conclusions in there that you disagree 

with. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Understood, Judge. 

We will do that. 

JUDGE YODER: All right. Now, 

this is another sort of peculiarity of this 

case, Mr. Lewerenz, that we find in the 

previous case you were representing the 

Administrator, is that right? 

MR. LEWERENZ: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: So the Administrator 

was, in essence, the prosecutor there? 

MR. LEWERENZ: In that case. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. And here he 

ends up being the ultimate decision maker? 

MR. LEWERENZ: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: I s tha t right ? 

MR. LEWERENZ: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: Someone les s 

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familiar with the APA might suggest that 

that's kind of peculiar having someone be both 

prosecutor and decision maker as to the same 

facts. That doesn't trouble you? 

MR. LEWERENZ: I'm not sure what 

to comment on except I've not been instructed 

that I could not do that. However, I'll bring 

that to the attention of our Regional Counsel, 

the comment you just made. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, I' d be happy 

to have any insights that you folks have on 

the folks. There are a couple of cases to 

note. There's an old Supreme Court case 

Withrow V. Larkin. And there's a more recent 

D.C. Circuit case Blinder, Robinson & Co. vs. 

the SEC. And there may be others. I don't 

want to do all your research for you, but I 

also don't want to avoid helping both of you 

get to the meat of this as easily as you can. 

The Blinder case is in 8 37F 2nd, 

1099. And Withrow v. Larkin is 421 US 35. 

That's a 1975 case. And the Blinder case is 

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a 1988 case. And they deal, among other 

things, with the exception to the prohibition 

on acting as prosecutor and decision maker. 

And the Agency head has an exception to that 

description under the APA or a member of the 

Agency. 

You know, we used to have the 

situation where cases like the one against 

Angstadt could wind up in both the DOT and the 

NTSB because the civil penalty and certificate 

sanctioned jurisdiction was divided. So you 

could wind up with precisely that situation in 

any case involving a certificate if you also 

pursued a civil penalty. But some years ago 

Congress saw that, perhaps, that wasn't a 

great idea since you theoretically could wind 

up with contrary results in the two forums. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Mr. Lewerenz got 

cut off. 

JUDGE YODER: Oh. Is he calling 

back in? Okay. 

Well, I'm jus t informed tha t Mr. 

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Lewerenz got dropped somehow. So we're trying 

to recover him, 

MR. DOMBROFF: We should be able 

to resolve this pretty quickly. Judge, if we 

hurry. 

JUDGE YODER: We aren't going to 

say anything right now until Mr. Lewerenz gets 

on. 

Off the record. 

(Whereupon, at 3:30 p.m. off the 

record until 3:37 p.m.) 

JUDGE YODER: Mr. Lewerenz, when 

did we lose you? 

MR. LEWERENZ: I'm sorry I got 

lost, you were just discussing the two cases, 

Larkin and I forgot the name of the other at 

the moment. 

JUDGE YODER: Blinder. 

MR. LEWERENZ: Blinder. 

JUDGE YODER: Larkin and Blinder. 

Okay. I don't remember that we 

did much after that. 

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The record will show the point at 

which you dropped out. If you have concerns 

about anything that occurred while you weren't 

on, raise those when you get the transcript. 

MR. LEWERENZ: Okay. Thank you. 

JUDGE YODER: I wouldn' t want to 

try to tell you what transpired, but we will 

keep that in the record and we'll pick it up. 

Okay. So that brings us through 

Sturgell Angstadt. 

And I have a number of questions 

here relating to the facts with respect to 

loading. 

Now- is Mr. Angstadt no longer 

associated with Colgan? 

MR. DOMBROFF: That's correct, 

Judge. He was terminated. He was initially 

placed on leave and then onc e the FAA 

proceedings were completed and as the 

revocation was affirmed, he was terminated. 

So since that time -- well, actually since 

before the decision he's not been active as a 

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pilot. And certainly since the decision he's 

been no longer employed. 

JUDGE BROWN: Can you tell me who 

was present at that meeting on May 2 7 that 

Coats went to? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I probably cannot 

without going back through my file, Judge. 

And --

JUDGE YODER: Was Captain 

Angstadt? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I don't believe he 

was. Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. Do you know 

what Coats was told about the subject of the 

meeting? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, the original 

meeting, and I'll have to go back and get the 

sequence of events, but the original meeting 

was called with -- was requested, as I recall, 

by the company to deal with unrelated 

performance issues relevant to First Officer 

Coats and it had nothing to do with this 

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flight. 

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says that the line captain sent letters to 

Colgan concerning Coats? 

MR. DOMBROFF: That's correct. 

Judge. That's correct. 

JUDGE YODER: Do you have those 

letters? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I'm sure we do. 

We'll get them for you. Judge. You got them. 

JUDGE YODER: And we've already 

said we want any investigation documents. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Absolutely, Judge, 

we'll get those to you as well. 

JUDGE YODER: Including the 

results of the investigation. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: And there's a 

reference to the suggestion that May 2 7 was 

the first time Colgan had been made aware of 

an alleged overweight takeoff situation. Is 

that still your position? 

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MR. DOMBROFF: I guess I would 

have to check on that, and I'm not certain is 

how much information the company had from any 

of the messages that were left by First 

Officer Coats prior to that point in time. 

Judge. And so I'll have to confirm the extent 

of any detail that First Officer Coats 

provided prior to meeting. 

JUDGE YODER: Does Mr. BandavanisMR. DOMBROFF: Bandavanis. 

JUDGE YODER: Does he still work 

for Colgan? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I believe he does. 

Brian, can you confirm that one 

way or the other? 

MR. HUNT: I -- I --

MR. DOMBROFF: Judge, even if heMR. HUNT : 

while we're on this call. 

I wil l fin d ou t 

MR. DOMBROFF: And eve n i f h e 

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doesn't, Judge, I would almost be certain we'd 

have access to him since he was one of the 

individuals - - he was the individual who at 

the time was the Director of Operations. And 

he communicated back to thee FSDO Inspector in 

connectio n with the investigation that was 

undertaken. And we'll provide to you -- and I 

guess we didn' t fully appreciate ourselves the 

conjunction or the overlap between the 

Angstadt investigation and the civil penalty 

against the company. But we'll certainly 

provide to you, for example, the letter 

reporting the results of the company's 

investigation to the FAA. And that was signed 

by Captain Bandavanis. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. Did you get 

the original load manifest that was prepared 

by Mr. Coats? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I'm just trying to 

think. I don't know that my file has it or 

the FAA has it. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, I would like 

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to have that. 

We have, of course, the load 

manifest under which the flight operated. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: And can you tell me 

who signed that? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I am looking at I 

think the load manifest for Flight 4803, dated 

April 18, 2008. And I believe, it's a copy of 

it, but it says Captain Signature, and as best 

as I can tell it's Jared Angstadt. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. So are we to 

assume that Captain Angstadt prepared that 

manifest? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I believe so. 

Judge. It shows Captain Jared Angstadt, First 

Officer B. Coats and the Flight Attendant's 

name. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

MR. DOMBROFF: He certainly signed 

it. I don't know because we don't have the 

transcript or the record from the proceedings 

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against Captain Angstadt. I don't know whether 

he testified as to whether he prepared it and 

then signed it or not. 

JUDGE YODER: That's Exhibit 5 to 

the report that was sent along by Complainant. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Okay. 

JUDGE YODER: And do you have that 

in front of you? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I do. Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Do you see that it 

says 33 adults? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I do, Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Can you tell me 

where that number comes from? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, you're saying 

procedurally, where would that number come 

from? I believe what would happen is--

JUDGE YODER: I won't use an 

adverb. You just tell me where the number 

came from. 

MR. DOMBROFF: I believe the 

number comes from a passenger count. Well, I 

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don't want to say that, no. 

I don't know whether on the Saab 

aircraft when they were leaving the gate or 

getting ready to leave the gate, whether it 

came from the Passenger Service Agent 

providing the information to the Captain or 

the Flight Attendant did an actual head count. 

I don't know the answer to that. 

JUDGE YODER: The numbers above 

the 33 --

MR. DOMBROFF: Excuse me? 

JUDGE YODER: You see the numbers 

above 33? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I do. Those are 

the seats in the aircraft. Yes, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: And if I told you 

that those numbers totaled 29 --

MR. DOMBROFF: They do, that's 

correct. 

JUDGE YODER: Would that help you 

to explain why that number 33 is there? 

MR. DOMBROFF: No, Judge. It 

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JUDGE YODER: All right. Is it 

possible that that number is a hold-over from 

Coats original manifest? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, I don't think 

Coats would have done an original. That's the 

reason that we don't - - we just don't know. 

JUDGE YODER: You don' t think 

there is one in addition to this one? 

MR. DOMBROFF: If there is. Judge, 

I'll confess I'm not aware of it. Let me look 

at something. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, Coats says 

that he did one and then Angstadt asked him to 

change it and turn some adults into children. 

of that. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes. We're aware 

If there is one - -

JUDGE YODER: And he raised the 

runway incline limit weight. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Right. 

JUDGE YODER: That shows right 

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30,000. 

MR'. DOMBROFF: That's correct, to 

JUDGE YODER: And I take it that 

didn't trouble anybody in Colgan when they saw 

that? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Wei 1, all I can 

say. Judge, is that they talked to -- when 

Captain Bandavanis, and I think there was 

somebody else involved but I' 11 have to go 

back, when they called in or talked with 

Captain Angstadt I can only presume and we'll 

have to get the answer for you that they were 

satisfied with the explanations. And I think, 

you know, the backdrop against which they were 

working. Judge, is a Captain that had been 

with the company for a number of years. I'll 

have to check to see the number of years, had 

an exemplary record with the company. There 

was no - - you know, that's one of the first 

questions I would typically ask is what's in 

their record. And there was no record of 

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problems or issues. 

And --

JUDGE YODER: Captain Angstadt 

apparently submitted a statement about this 

himself. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. 

than one. 

JUDGE YODER: Or statements, more 

MR. DOMBROFF: I believe that's 

accurate in terms of a verbal to the company 

as far as the investigation as well I believe 

written. 

JUDGE YODER: I need those 

statements. And if they're oral, then 

MR. DOMBROFF: We will get you a 

copy 

JUDGE YODER: You're going to 

provide us with everything there is in the 

company on the investigation. 

MR. DOMBROFF: We will do that, 

Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay . And anythin g 

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there is concerning the Line Captain's letters 

that gave rise to the meeting with Bandavanis? 

MR. DOMBROFF: We're going to do 

that. Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Now my understanding 

is that this meeting on May 27 was not called 

to discuss this question? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Again, I would have 

to go back and sort of talk to the folks who 

were involved in it by way of what they had in 

their minds. But I think they were bringing 

the First Officer in for the unrelated 

performance issues associated with the letters 

from other captains. I think that the First 

Officer Coats report about Captain Angstadt 

occurred after that series of events started 

to transpire. 

JUDGE YODER: But wait a minute. 

You lost me there. 

MR. DOMBROFF: I don' t have the 

exact --

JUDGE YODER: Ko, no . The timin g 

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MR. DOMBROFF: Yes. I think that 

these two series of events were overlapping. 

And I think the company was bringing First 

Officer Coats in to discuss his performance. 

It was before they brought him in to discuss 

his performance that he started to raise the 

issues about Captain Angstadt, as a result of 

which the meeting took place. And it turned 

out that the meeting ended up discussing both 

issues. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, I'm interested 

to hear that because in point of fact, the 

person, Mr. Bandavanis - -

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: -- said that^ they 

didn't know anything about this until that 

meeting on May 27th. 

MR. DOMBROFF: That's right. And 

the meeting up ended up addressing both of 

them. That's correct. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. I thought you 

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MR. DOMBROFF: Oh, no. I'm sorry. 

I probably didn't make myself clear. 

JUDGE YODER: And then they made 

that a subject of the meeting. 

MR. DOMBROFF: That's correct. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

MR. DOMBROFF: But, you know the 

clear - - and I think that's one of the factors 

here against which the backdrop of the 

company's investigation has to be taken into 

account. Namely, they're bringing this First 

Officer in because of performance problems. 

And when he's sitting there in a meeting to 

discuss his performance, he starts making 

accusations against the Captain who has an 

exemplary record. 

JUDGE YODER: Mr. Bandavanis 

suggests that Coats made this report only 

after he learned that he was being called in 

for the May 27 meeting. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes. 

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JUDGE YODER: And we know that 

isn't so, don't we? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Oh, we know that 

phone calls were made and not returned. 

correct. 

JUDGE YODER: But we know he made 

a Hotline report on May 16, don't we? 

MR. DOMBROFF: That's correct, to 

the FAA. 

JUDGE YODER: That was 11 days 

before the meeting. 

MR. DOMBROFF: That's correct. 

JUDGE YODER: So Bandavanis just 

wasn't aware of that? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Correct. And I'm 

not even sure, I have to go back and look, 

Judge, at the timing. But I'm not even sure 

that that Hotline report had made its way to 

the company as yet. 

JUDGE YODER: I don't know, too. 

MR. DOMBROFF: And I think the 

other thing is I think --

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JUDGE YODER: Essentially Coats 

didn't make his contacts, although he tried. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Oh, absolutely. 

JUDGE YODER: Why weren't people 

returning his calls? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I can't answer 

that. 

JUDGE YODER: Was that Bandavanis 

or that your head pilot? 

MR. DOMBROFF: He was the Director 

of Operations, not Chief Pilot. 

JUDGE YODER: Who was the Chief 

Pilot? 

MR. DOMBROFF: At that time, I 

just can't tell you who the Chief Pilot was 

for the company or the Chief Pilot for the 

Saab was. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

MR. DOMBROFF: But I do know that 

there was more than Captain Bandavanis 

involved in the investigation. 

JUDGE YODER: On April 21, Coats 

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tried to contact the Chief Pilot, left a 

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April 29 called the Chief Pilot, 

no reply. 

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a message, no reply. 

Do we know who that was? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I do not, but we 

can find out. 

JUDGE YODER: Is that Schmidt? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Again, Judge, I 

can't answer that. I don't know. 

JUDGE YODER: He still in your 

company? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I don't know that 

either. We'11 check. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes, I would like to 

know where Mr. Schmidt is and if he' s no 

longer there, when he left under what 

circumstances. 

MR. DOMBROFF: We'll let you know 

that. 

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I'm not aware, though, that on any 

of those messages that Mr. Coats left that he 

left information that a captain had requested 

that he falsify or change a load manifest. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

MR. DOMBROFF: So there was 

certainly no information left to my knowledge 

that this was a matter of urgency or air 

safety. But what we do know is that at the 

time he was leaving these messages, the 

company had concerns about him. 

JUDGE YODER: What sort of 

concerns? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, as I said. 

the letters from other captains and 

performance' issues. 

JUDGE YODER: Was one of those 

from Angstadt? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I don't believe so. 

JUDGE YODER: And I gather that --

MR. DOMBROFF: The other thing, 

just jumping back, Judge, to the Hotline 

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report - -

JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

MR. DOMBROFF: --he made that on 

the same day --he made his Hotline report on 

the same day that he was notified of the 

meeting with the company to discuss his 

performance, which frankly in my experience is 

always sort of a head-scratcher in terms--

JUDGE YODER: Where do you get the 

fact that he was notified on May 16th? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, on July 16th, 

Captain Bandavanis wrote to Inspector 

Lundgrin, and we will supply this to you as 

part of the information we're supplying if you 

don't have it already, that - -

MR. LEWERENZ: That's in the file 

that was sent to the Judge, and it's 28. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Okay. In which 

Captain Bandavanis pointed out that First 

Officer Coats phoned in his complaint to the 

FAA the same day he was notified of the 

meeting to discuss his performance. First 

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JUDGE YODER: He doesn't mention 

the call to the Hotline. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, no. Well, I 

think that certainly from Captain Bandavanis' 

understanding, the call to the FAA, presumably 

the Hotline, was made the same day he was 

notified of the meeting to discuss his 

performance, which caused the company -- and 

I'm --

JUDGE YODER: It doesn't say when 

he was notified. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Excuse me? 

JUDGE YODER: It doesn't say when 

he was notified. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Oh, no. In that 

letter it doesn't. That's correct. That's 

Correct. But certainly - -

JUDGE YODER: You just finished 

telling me that it was the same day that he 

Called the Hotline. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Oh, that's correct. 

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JUDGE YODER: Where do you find 

MR. DOMBROFF: Oh, I find it in 

Captain Bandavanis' letter to the FAA. He 

says, I'd like to point out that the date 

First Officer Coats phoned in his complaint to 

the FAA was the same day he was notified of 

the meeting to discuss his performance. First 

Officer Coats also claimed ~-

JUDGE YODER: The Hotline? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Excuse me? 

JUDGE YODER: Does that say 

Hotline? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Oh, it doesn't. 

JUDGE YODER: What are you reading 

from? Are you reading from the July 16 

letter? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: Where are you? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Third paragraph, 

first page. 

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JUDGE YODER: Okay. Third 

paragraph. Called the FAA Hotline two days 

prior. That' s two days prior to May 27, 

right? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: That would be May 

25, right? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Right. 

JUDGE YODER: And we know that 

that's not -- that he actually called on the 

16th. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well I --

JUDGE YODER: Not on the 25th. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, all I know is 

that Captain Bandavanis --

JUDGE YODER: He says it's the 

same day. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: He's basing that on 

the 25th. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, I thin k he' s 

basin g tha t on what he was tol d by Firs t 

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Officer Coats. 

JUDGE YODER: I'm sorry, but what 

it says here is that he said he will call the 

Hotline two days prior to May 2 7th, is that 

not what it says? 

MR. DOMBROFF: He claimed at the 

time that he had called the FAA Hotline two 

days prior to file a complaint about a flight 

he had been on a month earlier --

JUDGE YODER: That' s two days 

prior to May 27th, correct? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I don't necessarily 

read that. Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: During the meeting 

First Officer Coats produced a small piece of 

paper from his wallet. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, I see where 

you're talking, yes. 

JUDGE YODER: The flight number. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: He claimed at the 

time, is that not May 27th? 

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MR. DOMBROFF: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: Thank you. 

Two days prior to that would be 

May 25, would it not? 

MR. DOMBROFF: That's correct. 

JUDGE YODER: So apparently Mr. 

Bandavanis has something a little crossed up 

there? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, I think --

JUDGE YODER: He thinks that the 

Hotline call was made on the 2 5th, and that 

apparently was the date on which he was 

notified of this meeting. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, I think all 

he's doing is recounting what he was told by 

First Office Coats, Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, I don't know 

whether he's recounting it or not. We know 

what was said in this letter - -

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, he said --

JUDGE YODER: - - and we know he 

said in this letter that May 25 was the date 

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on which he was notified of the meeting on May 

27, isn't that what he says? 

MR. DOMBROFF: He says that --

JUDGE YODER: Think about that. 

Don't answer in haste. Because your earlier 

answers in haste have not necessarily been 

correct. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, I - -

JUDGE YODER: What I'm suggesting 

to you is that this letter does not say that 

he called the Hotline on the same day that he 

was notified of this meeting. Now you think 

about that and you come up with anything you 

can. All right. If that's the position you 

want to take, you come up with something that 

supports that. But you might want to come up 

with something other then this letter because 

this letter seems to support something else. 

MR. DOMBROFF: I hear what you're 

saying. Judge. And we'll certainly address 

the subject. 

JUDGE YODER: That would be a good 

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idea. Okay. 

So, let's see. So I take it then 

that when three different sources said that 

there were 34 passengers on this flight, 

Colgan no longer disputes that? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I think, based upon 

the investigation, Colgan had no basis to 

dispute the load manifest, that's correct. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, I don't know 

what load manifest you're talking about. You 

mean the load manifest that we just finished 

looking at? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: That shows 3 3 

passengers that add up to 29? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, there were 33 

passengers, one child and one infant without 

a jump seat rider. If anything, the weight--

JUDGE YODER: Well, the reports I 

see in here say there were no children. There 

was an infant -- oh, you're talking about the 

manifest? 

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MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. Yes, 

sir. Yes, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. Well, we know 

it's wrong, don't we? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: My question was 

whether you agree that there were 34 

passengers, an infant and no children; that's 

what Exhibit 6, 7 and 8 say. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. And you're 

going to find that earlier manifest for me if 

you can? 

MR. DOMBROFF: If one exists, yes. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. Do you know 

how far over the weights limits you were on 

this flight? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I think it was in 

the range of 200 pounds. I'd have to look back 

in- -

JUDGE YODER: I think Coats said 

it was 200 before you took on the jump seat 

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MR. DOMBROFF: And -- I'd have to 

go back into the file and find it. Judge. 

JUDGE YODER : Okay . You don' t 

have any question of Angstadt, that Angstadt 

as a captain had the authority to allow a jump 

seat passenger? 

MR. DOMBROFF: He had the 

authority to allow a jump seat passenger, but 

he did not have the authority to allow a jump 

seat passenger or anything else that would put 

the aircraft overweight, and he was punished 

for it. 

JUDGE YODER: But he had to make 

those determinations, didn't he? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Wei1 - -

JUDGE YODER: That was his job. 

MR. DOMBROFF: His job, well yes. 

As pilot in command he had to make those 

determinations. But he did not have the 

authority or the ability or the imprimatur to 

lie and falsify records. 

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JUDGE YODER: Well, he apparently 

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absolutely. Judge. We all have that ability. 

JUDGE YODER: Oh, okay. 

Now I've got a list of people who 

appear at one point or another in these 

documents. Is Coats still around? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I don't know the 

answer to that. We'll check. 

JUDGE YODER: Mr. Lewerenz, did 

you have in mind calling him? 

MR. LEWERENZ: Yes. The last time 

we were in touch with him was at the time of 

the hearing. But we have contact information 

from him and we probably could locate him 

again. 

JUDGE YODER: And this all assumes 

we're going to need a trial. And bear in mind 

that the issue here is whether Colgan violated 

the regulations. And there may be lots of 

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issues relating to that that have to do with 

the way this matter was handled. There may not 

be such issues if in fact Colgan recognizes 

its responsibility for the actions of its 

captain, or if we decide irrespective of their 

accepting such responsibility, that they are 

in fact responsible for the actions of the 

captain. Either of those conclusions might 

result in not needing this extensive factual 

examination. But I wanted to get some idea of 

where we are with respect to these witnesses 

if we wind up with a fact hearing. 

Jeffrey Wood, is he around? 

MR. DOMBROFF: He's a U.S. Airways 

Captain and we don't know. Judge, whether he 

is or he isn't. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, let me stick 

with Mr. Lewerenz for a while. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: Jeffrey, is he one 

of your prospective witnesses? 

MR. LEWERENZ; Yes, sir. 

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JUDGE YODER: Lundgrin? 

MR. LEWERENZ: Yes, sir. He' s 

still with the FAA. 

the FAA. 

JUDGE YODER: Leshok? 

MR. LEWERENZ: Yes, he's also with 

JUDGE YODER: And Bandavanis we 

know is still around. 

Bill Honan? Is he still the Chief 

Pilot? 

MR. DOMBROFF: No, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: He's the one who 

took over from the previous one we mentioned, 

Schmidt, the one who doesn't answer telephone 

calls? 

Judge. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Won't comment, 

JUDGE YODER: No. And Honan was 

involved in this in some way. 

Mary Finnigan? 

MR. DOMBROFF: She's still around, 

although not with the company any longer. 

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JUDGE YODER: With Colgan you 

mean? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE YODER; Okay, And then we 

have Scott Robinson? Laura Gore? 

MR. LEWERENZ: Yes, he was the 

deadhaeading passenger or non-revenue 

passenger. 

JUDGE YODER: Robinson was the 

deadheading passenger , wasn't he? 

MR. LEWERENZ: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: Laura Gore? 

MR. LEWERENZ: With U.S. Air. 

Canalia? 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. And Christopher 

MR. LEWERENZ: Also with U.S. Air. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. Let's move on 

here. You folks know what you need to provide 

me in terms of facts. And you're also going to 

need some briefing to be done because if you 

aren't going to accept responsibility for your 

captain's activity , you'r e going t o have t o 

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1 show me how you can support that. 

2 MR. DOMBROFF: I understand, 

3 Judge. 

4 JUDGE YODER: Okay. So then we 

5 get to the question of small business. And are 

6 you still contending that Colgan is a small 

7 business? 

8 MR. DOMBROFF: Absolutely, Judge. 

9 JUDGE YODER: Okay. And whether 

10 or not you're a small business depends on 

11 whether Colgan and its affiliates have less 

12 then 1500 employees, is that right? 

13 MR. DOMBROFF: No. It's whether 

14 Colgan has less then 1500 employees. 

15 JUDGE YODER: Oh, I see. So you 

16 don't look to affiliates in deciding whether 

17 Colgan is a small business? 

18 MR. DOMBROFF: I think one looks 

19 to the relationship with affiliates to 

20 determine whether or not, in this case Colgan, 

21 falls within the category of small business. 

22 And I think our position. Judge, it's based 

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those employees. That's correct. 

JUDGE YODER: I see. Okay. So 

103 (a) (1) , doesn' t that say that affiliates of 

affiliates are affiliates? 121-103{a) (1) . 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, but I --

JUDGE YODER: How about 121-106. 

MR. DOMBROFF: I understand. I 

don' t have it in front of me, Judge, but I 

think --

JUDGE YODER: Well, 121-106, as I 

understand it, basically says that the number 

of employees is the total number of employees 

of all affiliates. Isn't that what 106 says? 

MR. DOMBROFF: It does. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. So your 

contention is then that Pinnacle Corp. is not 

an affiliate of Colgan? 

MR. DOMBROFF: That's correct, not 

within the meaning of affiliate. That's 

correct. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

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MR. DOMBROFF: Because one has to 

go to the SBA definitions. And our position is 

that one would not count the Pinnacle Airlines 

people -- or the Pinnacle Airlines Corp. 

people. It's a holding company, Judge. And I 

believe the holding company, if I'm not 

mistaken, I think it's somewhere in one of the 

documents had 35 people. 

JUDGE YODER: Is it an investment 

company under the Investment Company Act? 

MR. DOMBROFF: A holding company. 

I think what we're --

JUDGE YODER : Yes . That' s not 

what I asked, though. Is it an investment 

company under the Investment Company Act? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I can't answer --

JUDGE YODER: You're bringing an 

exception under the rules for small business? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I can't answer 

that. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay . 

MR. DOMBROFF: Bu t I wil l ge t you 

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JUDGE YODER: You're going to need 

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MR. DOMBROFF: Absolutely. 

JUDGE YODER: Colgan is 100 

percent owned by Pinnacle Corp., is it not? 

MR. DOMBROFF: It is. 

JUDGE YODER: Under any definition 

of affiliates that I've seen to date, that 

makes them an affiliate. 

MR. DOMBROFF: But the holding 

company that owns them I believe -- I think --

I can't put my hands on the document. 

JUDGE YODER: The company that 

owns Pinnacle Corp.? 

MR. DOMBROFF: No, the Pinnacle 

Corp. which owns Pinnacle Airlines, and Brian 

will jump in and correct me, and owns Colgan 

Air - -

JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

MR. DOMBROFF: -- only 35 -- or a t 

the time only had - - I believ e i t was 35 

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employees. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes, okay. 

MR. DOMBROFF: For the holding 

company, i.e. the affiliate, only had 35 

employees. The only way you can get over the 

1500 is by counting the Pinnacle Airlines 

employees, which is an entirely separate 

company with an entirely separate certificate 

having nothing other then common ownership by 

Pinnacle Corp. 

JUDGE YODER: It is wholly owned 

by Pinnacle Corp.? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Excuse me, Judge? 

JUDGE YODER: It is totally owned 

by Pinnacle Corp.? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: If affiliates of 

affiliates are affiliates, then they're 

affiliates. 

MR. DOMBROFF: I wouldn't even 

know how to comment on that without studying 

the question. 

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JUDGE YODER: Well, it might be a 

good idea if you're going to make this 

allegation. 

MR. DOMBROFF: You bet. 

JUDGE YODER: Can you tell me 

whether Pinnacle, Inc. , you say that is wholly 

owned by Pinnacle Corp.? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Pinnacle Airlines 

is wholly owned by Pinnacle Corp. 

JUDGE YODER : All right . Inc . , 

isn't it? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Excuse me? 

JUDGE YODER: Is that different 

from Pinnacle, Inc.? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, I guess I'm 

talking in terms of the operating airlines. 

Pinnacle Airlines, Inc. is wholly owned by the 

holding company Pinnacle Corp. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. And, you know 

of course that there are websites for Pinnacle 

Corp. and Pinnacle, Inc? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. 

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JUDGE YODER: And you know that 

those websites say something about the number 

of employees? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I'm sure they do. 

I think the issue becomes from our 

perspective, certainly, what was the situation 

at that time. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Because the number 

of employees, obviously - - well, I guess I 

could say obviously. The number of employees 

has changed --

JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

MR. DOMBROFF: -- since the time 

of this violation. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, I gather that 

the submission that we have from Colgan to 

date suggests that Pinnacle Corp. -- I guess 

this was in answer to interrogatories, has 138 

employees? 

MR. DOMBROFF: That's correct. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. And the 

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website says 7700? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Right. Right. But 

I think what's being counted there is the 

airlines, the operating airlines' employees. 

JUDGE YODER: You mean Pinnacle 

Airlines, Inc? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Correct. 

JUDGE YODER: Do you know that it 

has a website also? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I'm sure it does. 

Yes, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, you know that 

it says it has over 4,000? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I think also since 

the time of this event. Pinnacle has also 

purchased Mesaba Airlines. So my guess is that 

the numbers reflect that as well. So I think 

in terms of the number of employees at any 

given time is something of a moving target. 

But we do know what the number of employees 

was that Colgan Air had at that time, at the 

time of --

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JUDGE YODER: That's not going to 

help you if these are all affiliates. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, I'm not sure 

I necessarily agree with that, Judge, and 

that's why we're going to present our 

authority to you. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, I think you 

would agree with the statement. You wouldn't 

agree with the fact that they're affiliates is 

what you're saying? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I wouldn't agree 

with the fact that - -

JUDGE YODER: The number of Colgan 

employees is not going to help you if all 

these people are affiliates and they have--

MR. DOMBROFF: I won't necessarily 

agree with that. Judge. No. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. All right. 

Well, that'11 be another interesting brief 

that you're going to prepare for me. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Understood. 

JUDGE YODER: Because if you're 

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going to contend that you're a small business, 

then you're going to have to file with me 

affidavits showing the relationship of all 

these companies. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Understood. 

JUDGE YODER: We'll need to know 

who all the directors of all the companies 

are. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Understood. 

JUDGE YODER: All the officers of 

all the companies. 

Do you know if there are common 

directories here? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I'm trying to go 

back in time, Judge, to the time of this 

event. And I want to say that there may have 

been one common director. 

JUDGE YODER: Oh, okay. Would it 

surprise you to learn that the interrogatory 

responses show four common directories between 

Colgan Air and Pinnacle? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I'd have to see 

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responses. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, they're your 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, I understand, 

Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

MR. DOMBROFF: I understand. And 

we'll provide all that information, as you've 

indicated. 

JUDGE YODER: Would you also be 

surprised to learn that in a pre-hearing 

conference in the other case, 17, your Mr. 

Ryan stated, quote, there are no shared 

directors, close quote? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Again, Judge, if I 

wasn' t on at that conference, I just can' t 

comment as to what may have been said there. 

JUDGE YODER: You might want to be 

aware of that, though. 

MR . DOMBROFF: Absolutely. You 

bet. 

JUDGE YODER: Becaus e we do tak e 

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seriously the representations that are made by 

attorneys. 

MR. DOMBROFF: I agree. As do I. 

JUDGE YODER: And if in fact we 

every go to a trial in this case, I should 

advise both parties that we take seriously 

testimony that's given in the cases. And 

particularly when you have two hearings on the 

same subject, the potential for a misstatement 

is great. And the potential for, in this 

particular case, for intentional misstatement 

is not all that slim given what you say about 

your own captain. 

MR. DOMBROFF: I agree with you. 

Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. And I should 

also add to the record that I am the only 

Federal Administrative Law Judge that I'm 

aware of who has successfully referred for 

prosecution a perjury that appeared in a 

hearing before me. That's just to let you 

know that we do regard the statements made in 

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these proceedings seriously. And I'm sure you 

do, too. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, Judge, I 

would expect nothing less of you and I expect 

nothing less of myself. 

JUDGE YODER: Are there any other 

companies owned by Pinnacle Corp.? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Currently I can't 

answer that question, but we'll provide that 

information. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

MR. DOMBROFF: I believe that 

Pinnacle Corp. acquired Mesaba Airlines in the 

interim. But beyond that, I can't tell you if 

there are others or if there are other service 

companies or what. But we'll--

JUDGE YODER: And your 

interrogatory response says that Pinnacle 

Corp. is publicly held. Is that right? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Which interrogatory 

are you referring to. Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: I'll tell you in a 

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MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, correct 

Pinnacle Airlines, Corp. is a publicly held 

company. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. Do you know 

who controls it? 

MR. DOMBROFF: No, I don't. 

JUDGE YODER: Do you know how 

widely the stock is held? 

MR. DOMBROFF: No, I don't. 

JUDGE YODER: Do you know if there 

is a block of stock held by an individual or 

other entity that would enable it to have 

control? 

MR. DOMBROFF: I do not know the 

answer to that. 

JUDGE YODER: In order to address 

the issue we are addressing, you will --

MR. DOMBROFF: I understand. And 

I know that we have - -

JUDGE YODER: -- need to know the 

answer to that. 

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MR. DOMBROFF: Well, we'll get the 

answer. But I know we've addressed some of 

this in our other answers to interrogatories 

in the context of --

JUDGE YODER: Because what this 

involves is an examination of your shareholder 

records - -

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: in order to 

determine the distribution of shareholding. 

I mean, unless you actually know that there is 

in a fact a Daddy Warbucks out there who 

really controls Pinnacle Corp. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Right. Right. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes. I had a case, 

oh maybe 30 years ago when I first started as 

an ALJ, actually it might have been 34 years 

ago. The case was named_Cathay Pacific. And 

the question there was whether Cathay Pacific 

was a U.S. citizen. And by the time we got 

through looking at Cathay Pacific, I think 

there must have been 30 or 40 interlocutory --

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interlocking companies and ownership 

interests. And, of course, the Small Business 

regulations require that you disclose any 

agreements that might relate control of shares 

or voting agreements or the like. So all that 

would have to be provided. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Understood. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. Now let's see 

what else. 

All right. Is Colgan asserting the 

ability to pay as an issue in this case? 

MR. DOMBROFF: No, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. So we can get 

rid of that. 

Mr. Lewerenz, can you tell me 

whether the proposed penalty here was assumed 

or did not assume that there was a small 

business? 

MR. LEWERENZ: This penalty when 

it was calculated assumed it was a small 

business. 

JUDGE YODER: It did? 

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MR. LEWERENZ: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

MR. LEWERENZ: I have to tell you, 

Judge, I'm apologizing. I'm using a handset 

and I'm getting a low battery message. 

J\yi>G^ YODER: Okay. Vie'r e almost 

through. 

MR. LEWERENZ: Okay. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. All right. Do 

either of you have any questions that you want 

to raise at this point? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Nothing on behalf 

of Colgan, Judge. We'll get you the 

information --

JUDGE YODER: Mr. Lewerenz, 

anything? 

MR. LEWERENZ: No. No, I don't 

have any questions. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. Then I need 

from you folks a date by which these various 

submissions are going to be made. And what I 

need from Colgan is an indication as to its 

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position with respect to fact issues. I need 

the previous case record; that can come from 

Mr. Lewerenz. He has that. 

MR. LEWERENZ: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: I need a statement 

from Colgan as to what fact contentions its 

going to make different from the findings in 

the previous case. I don't know whether I 

would make the same findings they did or not ; 

that would have to be determined if we wind up 

with fact case. But I know what you folks plan 

to put at issue, if anything, factually. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Understood. 

JUDGE YODER: Then we need the 

facts related to the claim of small business. 

I mean, if you calculated this on the basis of 

small business, Mr. Lewerenz, is small 

business an issue in this case? 

MR. LEWERENZ: I mean, it's -- I 

mean, we have just what the representations 

are and it's the calculation that we made. So 

in this case it may not be an issue because 

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that' s the assumption we went on in 

Calculating civil penalty. 

JUDGE YODER: That's if you didn't 

prevail on all your claims, that would affect 

the maximum you could collect, wold it not? 

MR. LEWERENZ: YeS. 

JUDGE YODER: And so if it weren't 

a small business, the result might be 

different then if it were? I'll let you folks 

talk to each other about that and try to 

figure out whether small business is really in 

question. I don't want to remake the smallbusiness wheel if in fact it's not an issue in 

this case. Okay? 

MR. DOMBROFF: We'll take with Mr. 

Lewerenz about it. Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. And then it 

Wouldn't hurt to talk about settling this 

Case. 

MR, DOMBROFF: There have been 

discussions, Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Yes . I' ve been 

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1 hearing that for over a year. 

2 MR. DOMBROFF: I appreciate that. 

3 All I can tell you is that there have been 

4 some recent discussions. And we're certainly5 

6 JUDGE YODER: We've got a number of 

7 cases pending. 

8 MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. 

9 JUDGE YODER: So you get to look 

10 forward to some more of these if - -

11 MR. DOMBROFF: It's always a 

12 pleasure, Judge. 

13 JUDGE YODER: Well me, too. 

14 So when do you want to make those 

15 submissions? Mr. Lewerenz, when can you get 

16 me the record? 

17 MR. LEWERENZ: I think we could do 

18 so within two weeks. It's just that the 

19 original file might have been archived. So I 

20 just have to check on that. 

21 JUDGE YODER: All right. Well, you 

22 give me a date that you can live with. If it 

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it. But I'd like to start with a date that is 

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MR. LEWERENZ: Sure. 

JUDGE YODER: So what date are you 

looking for? The 27th would be two weeks. 

MR. LEWERENZ: Yes. If we have 

it, we can get it out to you by then. If 

there's a problem, we'll let you know and ask 

for an extension. 

JUDGE YODER: I don't want you to 

give me if s and maybes. I want a date by 

which it will be in my hands absent a request 

for relief. 

MR. LEWERENZ : Okay. How about 

Monday, August 1st. 

JUDGE YODER : August 1st. Okay . 

And, Mr. Dombroff, do you want to 

talk with Mr. Lewerenz about the question of 

small business and then you want to - - if it's 

going to be in the case, you're going to have 

to send me the information I've indicated. 

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MR. DOMBROFF: You bet. Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: And brief it. 

MR. DOMBROFF: And you will --

JUDGE YODER: And if facts are 

going to be in the case, you're going to have 

to tell me what facts and we'll decide on the 

basis of that whether we need a fact hearing 

or not. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE YODER: And if the only 

issue is whether Colgan is responsible for the 

acts of its officers and pilots, if one of 

your pilots gets on the plane and flies into 

a tall building in Manhattan because he 

decides he doesn't feel good that day, you'll 

have to figure out whether Colgan has any 

responsibility for that. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Well, you know I 

think you've put your finger on it there. I 

think there are circumstances where actions --

clearly actions of pilots in the normal course 

of their employment are chargeable to their 

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employer. I think -- but I don't think that 

it --

JUDGE YODER: But you brief that 

and you let me know what the basis of that is. 

MR. DOMBROFF: Yes. 

JUDGE YODER: And when do you want 

to do all of that. 

MR. DOMBROFF: That we can -- the 

only reason I'm hesitating, Judge, is I'm just 

wondering whether or not there's something in 

this trial record on the Angstadt matter that 

would impact what we would submit to you. 

JUDGE YODER: Well, sure. I mean 

that's why I asked you when you want to do it. 

MR. DOMBROFF: I would say we will 

-- we don't have to wait until we have that to 

get started. So I would say we will have to 

you our full submissions on all of these 

issues within ten days after we receive that 

record on the Angstadt matter from Mr. 

Lewerenz. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay . So we ' r e 

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going to make August 15th. 

MR. DOMBROFF: That's fine. 

JUDGE YODER: August 15 is your 

submission date. 

And then, Mr. Lewerenz, you'11 

need a reply date for the brief on 

responsibility or anything else you want to 

reply to. 

MR. LEWERENZ: Yes. Probably ten 

days from when we receive that briefing, I 

guess. 

29. 

JUDGE YODER: We'll make it August 

MR. LEWERENZ: Okay. 

JUDGE YODER: Are those real 

dates? August 1st, I assumed was a real date. 

What is that? 

MR. LEWERENZ: Yes, August 1st is 

a Monday. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. So these are 

all Monday dates. Okay? 

MR. LEWERENZ: Yes. 

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JUDGE YODER: Okay. Anything 

further, gentlemen? 

MR. DOMBROFF: Nothing, Judge, 

from Colgan. 

JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

MR. LEWERENZ: Nothing, Judge. 

JUDGE YODER: Thank you very much. 

That concludes the Prehearing 

Conference. 

(Whereupon, the above-entitled 

matter went off the record at 4:27 p.m.) 

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ability 58:21 59:2,5 

78:11 

able 30:3 

above-entitled 1:14 

87:10 

absent S3:13 

absolutely 7:22 

18:1222:2 23:13 

33:13 46;3 59:5 

63:8 66:4 73:20 

accept 62:21 

accepting 60:6 

access 35:2 

accompanied 24:13 

account 44:12 

accurate4l:10 

accusations 44:16 

acquired 75:13 

Act 65:10,15 

acting 18:8,22 29:3 

action 18:4,7 25:2 

actions 60:4.7 

84:20,21 

active 31:22 

activity 62:22 

acts 84:12 

actual 25:14 38:7 

add 56:15 74:17 

addition 39:9 

additional 17:19 

27:1,3 

address 5.S:20 

76:17 

addressed 77:2 

addressing43:20 

76:18 

adequate 18:16 

Administrative 

1:22 74:18 

Administrator 

27:12,14 

adults 20:16 37:1 1 

39:15 

advcrb37:19 

advise 74:6 

advised 12:17 

AEA-7 2:4 

affect 81:4 

affidavits 72:3 

affdiate 64:18,20 

66:10 67:4 

affdiatcs 63:11,16 

63:19 64:4,5,5,14 

66:9 67:17,18,18 

67:1971:2,9,15 

affirmed 31:20 

Agency 25:2 29:4.6 

Agcnt38:5 

ago 29:1477:16,18 

agree 22:2.8 57:7 

71:4,8,9.11,17 

74:3,14 

agreeable 83:3 

agreement 5:9 

agreements 78:4,5 

ahead 17:13 

air 1:9 3:5 16:5 

48:8 62:13.16 

66:19 70:21 72:21 

aircraft 12:6 16:18 

17:10,20 38:3,15 

58:12 

airlines2:19 12:13 

65:3,4 66:17 67:6 

68:8,16,17 70:4,4 

70:6,1675:13 

76:3 

Airman 10:12,15 

Airways 17:20 

60:14 

ALJ 77:17 

allegation 68:3 

allegations 22:19 

alleged 12:18 21:7 

22:17 33:21 

allow 58:6,9,10 

AMERICA 1:1 

Angstadt 11:12 

12:5,6.19 13:14 

13:14 14.6,12,14 

14:19 15:1,1.19 

24:2,9,19 26:3 

29:931:10,14 

32:1035:1036:11 

36:13,1637:1 

39:1440:1241:3 

42:1543:8 48:18 

58:5,5 85:11,20 

Angstadfs 14:17 

15:2 

answer 15:7 18:6 

19:13 38:8 40:13 

46:6 47:12 55:5 

59:11 61:1465:16 

65:1966:1 69:19 

75:9 76:16,22 

77:2 

answcrs4:22 5:2 

55:6 77:3 

anybody 4:6 40:5 

anvwav 7:18 

APA2S:1 29:5 

apologizing 79:4 

apparently 6:8,11 

13:2 19:i641:4 

54:6,12 59:1 

appear 59:8 

APPEARANCES 

2:1 

appeared 74:20 

appreciate 35:8 

82:2 

April 36:9 46:22 

47:3 

archived 82:19 

asked 39:14 65:14 

85:14 

asserting 78:10 

assistants 11:7 

associated 31:15 

42:13 

assume 23:17 

36:13 78:17 

assumed 78:16,20 

86:16 

assumes 59:19 

assumption 19:17 

19:21 81:1 

attempts 10:10 

attend 26:7 

Attendant 38:7 

Attendant's 36:17 

attention 28:8 

attorneys 11:8 74:2 

AT&T 9:7 

August 83:16,17 

86:1,3,12,16.18 

authority 58:6,9.10 

58:21 59:2 71:6 

automatically 3:12 

Aviation 2:5 9:3 

avoid 28:18 

aware 7:10.15 

11:14,17 19:20 

33:20 39:11.16 

45:1448:1 73:19 

74:19 

awful 14:2 

B 

B36:17 

back4:16 14:21 

21:20 24:1729:21 

32:7,1735:5 

40:11 42:945:16 

48:22 57:19 58:3 

72:15 

backdrop 40:15 

44:10 

badge 15:18 

balance 12:19 

Bandavanis 25:22 

34:9,11 35:15 

40:9 42:2 43:14 

44:1845:1346:8 

46:20 49:12.19 

50:5 51:5 52:15 

54:7 61:7 

based 14:13 19:16 

56:6 63:22 

basically 22:18 

64:12 

basing 52:19,22 

basis 19:21 23:11 

56:7 80:16 84:7 

85:4 

battery 79:5 

Pag e 88 

bear 59:20 

behalf2:2,7 79:12 

belatedly 3:21 

believe 13:8,9 

24:12,1632:11 

34:14 36:9,15 

37:17,21 41:9,11 

48:19 65:6 66:12 

66:22 75:12 

believed 13:22 

benefit 20:10 

best 8:1 25:13 

36:10 

bet 68:4 73:21 84:1 

beyond 75:14 

Bible 26:6 

Bill 61:9 

Blinder 28:15,20 

28:22 30:18,19,20 

block 76:12 

Boulevard 2:20 

Branch 8:21 

Brian 2:18 3:9 

34:15 66:17 

brief71:19 84:2 

85:3 86:6 

briefing 62:20 

86:10 

bring 28:7 

bringing42:l 1 

43:4 44:1265:17 

brings 15:22 31:9 

broadly 18:18 

brought 43:6 

BROWN 323 

building 84:14 

business 63:5,7,10 

63 

72 

80 

81 

17,21 65:18 

1 78:2,18,21 

15,17,1881:8 

11,13 83:20 

C3:l 

calculated 78:20 

80:16 

calculating 81:2 

Nea l R. Gross & Co. , Inc . 

202-234-443 3 
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calculation 80:21 

call 8:6 10:10 34:21 

50:3,6 53:3 54:11 

called 13:5,13 

32:1940:11 42:6 

44:20 47:3,5 

50:21 52:2,10 

53:7 55:11 

calling 29:20 59:13 

calls9:7 45:4 46:5 

61:15 

Canalia 62:15 

captain 9:14 12:6 

12:18 13:13,14 

14:12.14,17.19 

15:1,2.19 16:19 

17:16,20,21 18:4 

18:7,19,20 24:2,5 

24:8 32:9 33:3 

35:1536:10,13,16 

37:1 38:6 40:9,12 

40:1641:3 42:15 

43:8 44:16 46:20 

48:3 49:12,19 

50:5 51:5 52:15 

58:6 60:5,8,15 

74:13 

captains42:14 

48:15 

captain's 42:1 

62:22 

captioned 7:18 

casell:ll,20 12:12 

16:11 17:1.5 22:6 

23:12,22 25:7,12 

25:15,17,18,18 

26:2.1527:10,11 

27:1628:13,15,20 

28:22,22 29:1,13 

63:20 73:12 74:5 

74:11 77:15.18 

78:11 80:2,8.11 

80:18,2281:14,19 

83:21 84:5 

cases 28:12 29:8 

30:15 74:7 82:7 

category 63:21 

Cathay 77:18,19,21 

caused 50:9 

certain 34:2 35:1 

certainly 3:20 

12:12*16:10 17:9 

32:1 35:11 36:20 

48:7 50:5.18 

55:20 69:6 82:4 

certificate 10:16 

15:21 29:10,13 

67:8 

CFR 7:9 

change 39:15 48:4 

changed 69:12 83:1 

changing 83:1 

charge 9:7 15:10 

chargeable 84:22 

check 24:17 34:2 

40:1847:1659:11 

82:20 

Chief 1:22 46:11,12 

46:15,1647:1,3,5 

61:9 

child 56:17 

children 20:17 

39:15 56:20 57:8 

Christian 2:3 3:8 

Christopher 62:14 

circle 16:1 

Circuit 28:15 

circumstances 

11:21 47:20 84:20 

citizen 77:20 

civil 16:3,4 20:3,4.5 

20:7 25:12 29:10 

29:14 35:1081:2 

claim 80:15 

claimed51:1053:6 

53:21 

claims 81:4 

clear 44:3,9 

clearly 84:21 

close 73:14 

Coats 9:8 12:7 

13:20 32:5,14,22 

33:4 34:5,7 35:18 

36:17 39:4,6,13 

42:1543:5 44:19 

46:1,22 48:2 

49:20 50:1 51:7 

51:1053:1,15 

54:16 57:21 59:9 

Colgan 1:9 3:5 16:4 

23:21 31:15 33:4 

33:20 34:13 40:5 

56:5.7 59:21 60:3 

62:1 63:6,11,14 

63:17,20 64:18 

66:5,1869:17 

70:21 71:13 72:21 

78:1079:13,22 

80:6 84:11,16 

87:4 

collect 81:5 

come 26:19 37:16 

55:13,15,1680:2 

conies 37:14,22 

coming 26:4 

command 58:19 

comment 28:6.9 

61:1667:21 73:17 

common 67:9 

72:12,17,20 

communicated 

35:5 

companies 72:4,7 

72:11 75:7,16 

78:1 

company 12:14.17 

13:1,13,13,16,16 

13:17 14:13,15,15 

14:16,19 15:17,19 

17:18,21 20:11,12 

21:6,9 24:4,4,6 

25:19,21 26:1 

32:20 34:3 35:11 

40:17,1941:10,19 

43:4 45:1946:16 

47:1448:11 49:6 

50:9 61:22 65:5,6 

65:10,10,11,15,15 

66:12,14 67:4,8 

68:18 76:4 

company's35:13 

44:11 

Complainant2:2 

3:8 6:1937:5 

Complainant's 

4:225:19 11:13 

complaint 9:3 

49:20 51:7 53:8 

completed 31:19 

Compliant 3:13 

concerned 23:8 

concerning 33:4 

42:1 

concerns 9:2 31:2 

48:11,13 

conclude 25:4 

concluded 13:19 

15:17 

concludes 87:8 

Conclusion 8:18 

conclusions 27:4 

60:8 

conduct 12:18 

conducts21:6 

conference 1:6 3:4 

73:12.1687:9 

confess 39:11 

confines 25:12 

confirm 8:7 34:6 

34:15 

Connicting8:17 

Congress 29:15 

conjunction 35:9 

connect 13:3,5 

connection 12:15 

35:6 

contact 47:1 59:16 

contacts 46:2 

contend 22:16 23:8 

72:1 

contendere 22:18 

contending 63:6 

contention 64:17 

contentions 80:6 

context 20:3,7 77:4 

contrary 29:17 

contror76:14 78:4 

controls 76:6 77:13 

convenience 22:13 

copy3:ll,156:5 

7:1,2 10:4 11:17 

21:12 36:941:16 

Corp2:1964:17 

65:4 66:6,15,17 

67:10,12,1568:7 

68:9,18,21 69:18 

75:7,13,19 76:3 

77:13 

correct 5:3,4,10 

12:2 13:3,9,9 

19:1831:1633:5 

33:6 38:1940:2 

43:21 44:6 45:5,8 

45:12,1550:17,18 

50:22 53:11 54:5 

55:7 56:8 64:2,19 

64:21 66:18 69:21 

70:7 76:2 

counsel 2:4 3:13 

11:1324:5,9,11 

24:13 28:8 

count37:22 38:7 

64:1 65:3 

counted 70:3 

counting 67:6 

couple 28:12 

course 11:19 23:7 

25:20 36:2 68:20 

78:2 84:21 

Court3;10,17 

28:13 

cover6:8 18:22 

CP09EA00I8 1:9 

3:6 

credible 13:21 

crossed 54:7 

Currently 75:8 

cut 29:19 

D 

D3:l 

Daddy 77:12 

date 4:13 51:6 

54:12,22 66:9 

69:18 79:20 82:22 

Neal R. Gross 8L CO., Inc. 

202-234-4433 
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83:2,5.12 86:4,6 

86:16 

dated 8:20 9:15 

36:8 

dates4:ll,11.15 

86:16,21 

day 49:4,5,21 50:7 

50:2051:8 52:17 

55:11 84:15 

Daylight 1:15 

days 45:10 52:2,3 

53:4,8,10 54:3 

85:1986:10 

deadhaeading 62:7 

deadheading 17:19 

62:10 

deal 29:1 32:20 

Dean 25:22 

decide 60:5 84:6 

decides 84:15 

deciding 63:16 

decision 11:18 14:6 

14:7 15:21 25:14 

27:18 28:3 29:3 

31:22 32:1 

defense 22:20 

defensive 18:2 

definition 66:8 

definitions 65:2 

delivery 4:10 

DEPARTMENT 

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depends 23:6 63:10 

description 29:5 

detail 34:7 

Details 10:16 

determination 

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determinations 

58:15,20 

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21:20 63:20 77:10 

determined SO: 10 

different 16:13,17 

56:3 68:13 80:7 

81:9 

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director 35:4 46:10 

72:17 

directories 72:13 

72:20 

directors 72:7 

73:14 

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disclose 78:3 

discuss42:7 43:5,6 

44:15 49:6,22 

50:8 51:9 

discussing 30:15 

43:10 

discussion 16:8 

discussions 81:21 

82:4 

dispute 56:8 

disputes 56:5 

distribution 77:10 

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5:186:8 7:10,14 

7:1866:13 

documents 3:22 

4:3,14.15 6:3,9,18 

8:2 11:10 12:8 

14:3 33:2,12 59:9 

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3:9,15,18 5:4,6,10 

7:12,13,17,22 

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10 

11 

12 

14 

15 

17 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

1,8,11,17 11:4 

14,15 12:1,5 

11 13:2.8,11 

2,4,9,20 15:5,9 

11,12,16 16:16 

2,6,16 18:5,12 

5,6,9,13,18,22 

2,16,2021:1,4 

15,19 22:2,7,8 

21 23:3,13,16 

19,1924:3,12 

1625:1626:4 

26:8,9,14,21 27:6 

29:1830:331:16 

32:6,11,1633:5,9 

33:13,1734:1,11 

34:14,18,2235:19 

36:4,7.15,20 37:6 

37:9,12,15,21 

38:11,14,18,22 

39:5,10,16,21 

40:2,7 41:6,9.15 

41:20 42:3,8.20 

43:2,15,1944:2,6 

44:8,22 45:3,8,12 

45:15,21 46:3,6 

46:10.14,1947:8 

47:11,15,21 48:6 

48:14,19,21 49:3 

49:11,18 50:4,13 

50:16,22 51:4,12 

51:15,19,21 52:5 

52:8,12,14.18.21 

53:6,12,17,20 

54:1,5,9,14,20 

55:3,8,19 56:6,13 

56:16 57:1,5.10 

57:14,18 58:2,8 

58:16,18 59:4.10 

60:14,1961:11,16 

61:21 62:3 63:2,8 

63:13,18 64:6,8 

64:15,1965:1,11 

65:16,19,22 66:4 

66:7,11,16,21 

67:3,13,16,20 

68:4,8,12,15,22 

69:4,9,14,21 70:2 

70:7,10,14 71:3 

71:11,16.21 72:5 

72:9,14,22 73:4,7 

73:15,20 74:3,14 

75:3,8,12,20 76:2 

76:7,10,15,19 

77:1,8,1478:7.12 

79:1280:1381:15 

81:20 82:2,8,11 

83:1884:1,3,9,18 

85:5,8,15 86:2 

87:3 

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Drive 2:12 

dropped 30:1 31:2 

D.C 28:15 

E 

E3:l,l 

earlier 53:9 55:5 

57:12 

early 26:15 

easily 28:19 

Eastern 1:15 

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either 47:16 60:8 

79:10 

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employed 32:2 

employee 20:8 21:3 

21:9* 

employees 63:12 

63:1464:2,13,13 

67:1,5,7 69:3,10 

69:11,20 70:4,18 

70:20 71:14 

employer 20:6 21:3 

85:1 

employment 14:17 

18:9*19:1 20:9 

84:22 

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ended43:10,20 

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Enforcement 6:5 

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entirely 22:3 67:7,8 

entity 76:13 

ESQ2:3,10,18 

essence 27:15 

essentially 11:20 

12:1 46:*1 

event 11:10 12:15 

70:15 72:16 

events 32:18 42:16 

43:3 

everybody 22:12 

everybody's 5:15 

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27:1,2,3 

exact 42:21 

examination 60:10 

77:6 

example 10:2 35:12 

exception 29:2,4 

65:18 

exchange 9:14 

exchanged 3:22 

25:13 

E.\cuse 17:2 38:11 

50:13 51:1267:13 

68:12 

exemplary 40:19 

44:17 

exhibit 9:8,16,17 

10:4.5,12,18.20 

37:4 57:9 

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expect 75:4,4 

experience 12:12 

49:7 

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explanations 40:14 

express 4:10 

extension 83:10 

extensive 60:9 

extent 8:2 34:6 

eye 17:8 

F 

FAA 1:8 2:4 3:5,13 

14:11 15:17,20 

20:431:1835:14 

35:21 45:9 49:21 

50:6 51:5,8 52:2 

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1:10 

fact4:14 16:14 

26:22 43:13 49:10 

60:3,7,12 71:9,12 

74:4 77:12 80:1,6 

80:11 81:13 84:7 

factors 8:14 44:9 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 
facts 11:21 16:8,22 

17:4,728:431:12 

62:1980:15 84:4 

84:6 

factual 22:19 23:10 

27:4 60:9 

factually 80:12 

failure 19:3 

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falls 63:21 

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18:21 21:11 

falsify 48:4 58:22 

familiar 28:1 

far 18:22 20:8 

41:11 57:16 

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Federal 74:18 

feel 84:15 

figure22:5 81:11 

84:16 

file8:8 10:2 14:22 

15:2,4,6 21:20 

32:7 35:2049:16 

53:8 58:3 72:2 

82:19 

filed 19:15 23:12 

filings 22:15 

find5:I3 27:10 

34:2047:951:2,4 

57:12 58:3 

findings 80:7,9 

fine5:128:9S6:2 

finger 84:19 

finish 22:10 

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56:11 

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10:15 12:8,13 

13:1932:21 33:20 

34:4,7 36:16 

40:2042:12,14 

43:444:1249:19 

49:22 51:7,9,22 

52:22 53:15 54:16 

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36:1738:7 53:8 

53:19 56:4 57:17 

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28:11,1242:9 

62:18 79:20 80:11 

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issue 11:21 59:21 

Nea l R. Gross & Co. , Inc . 

202-234-443 3 
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43:8,11 48:16 

60:1,3 80:1 85:19 

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total 64:13 

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train 19:3 

training !S:!7 

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type 21:5 

types 20:4 

typically 40:21 

U 

ultimate 27:18 

ultimately 21:9 

unclear 4:1 

understand 5:8 6:7 

6:16 11:19 14:4 

18:2 63:2 64:8.12 

73:4,7 76:19 

understanding 

42:5 50:6 

Understood 27:6 

71:21 72:5,9 78:7 

80:13 

undertaken 35:7 

UNITED 1:1 

unrelated 12:15,16 

32:2042:12 

unusual 12:12 

urgency 48:8 

use 37:18 

U.S17:1960:14 

62:13,16 77:20 

v 28:14,21 

VA2:14 

various 79:20 

verbal 41:10 

violated 59:21 

violation 21:8 

69:15 

Violations 7:9 

voting 78:5 

vsll:1228:15 

\V 

wait42:18 85:16 

wallet 53:16 

want 5:14 12:22 

23:11 28:17,18 

31:6 33:1238:1 

55:15,16 72:16 

73:1879:1081:12 

82:1483:11,12,18 

83:20 85:6,14 

86:7 

wanted 11:260:10 

Warbucks 77:12 

Washington 8:21 

wasn't 4:1 6:2 

23:1829:1545:14 

62:1073:16 

way 14:11 34:16 

42:1045:1860:2 

61:1967:5 

website 70:1,9 

websites 68:20 69:2 

Wednesday 1:13 

weeks4:8 82:18 

83:6 

weighing 13:18 

weight 12:19 20:14 

39:20 56:18 

weights 17:17 

57:16 

went 25:18 32:5 

81:1 87:11 

weren't 31:3 46:4 

81:7 

we'll31:8 33:10,14 

35:7.11 40:12 

47:16,21 55:20 

59:11 72:6 73:8 

75:9,16 77:1 

79:1381:1583:1 

83:9 84:6 86:12 

weVe7:13.15 18:6 

18:17 19:1 30:1 

34:2! 39:1642:3 

49:14 59:20 65:12 

71:5 79:6 82:4 

85:22 

we've 7:17 22:15 

33:11 77:2 82:6 

wheel81:13 

wholly 67:11 68:6,9 

68:1*7 

widely 76:9 

wind 29:9,12,16 

60:12 80:10 

wise 4:18 

Withrow 28:14,21 

witness24:8,13,17 

witnesses 24:7,10 

60:11.21 

wold 81:5 

wonderful 11:7 

wondering 85:10 

Wood 9:14 60:13 

Woods 9:18 

word 4:18 

work 10:21 34:12 

working 40:16 

wouldn't 14:21 

31:6 39:1 67:20 

71:8,11 81:18 

written 41:12 

wrong 57:4 

wrote 49:12 

year 82:1 

years 26:14 29:14 

40:17,1877:16,17 

YODER 1:21 3:} 

3:20 5:7,12 6:2,7 

6:11,14,177:4.16 

7:19 8:9,13 9:2,6 

9:13,22 10:6,9 

11:1,5,16 12:4.10 

12:21 13:4,10 

14:1,8,18 15:3,8 

15:10,15 16:12.21 

17:3,12 18:1,10 

19:4,7,11,15,20 

20:1,13,18,22 

21:2,12,17,22 

22:5,1023:1,5,14 

23:1724:1,10,15 

24:20 25:3,8 26:7 

26:10,1827:8,14 

27:17,20,22 28:10 

29:20 30:6,12,18 

30:20 31:6 32:9 

32:13 33:2,7,11 

33:15,18 34:9,12 

35:16,22 36:5,12 

36:19 37:4,7,10 

37:13,1838:9,12 

38:16,20 39:2,8 

39:13,19,22 40:4 

41:3,7,13,17,22 

42:5,18,22 43:12 

43:16,22 44:4,7 

44:1845:1,6,10 

45:13,20 46:1,4,8 

46:12.18,22 47:10 

47:13,1748:5,12 

48:17,20 49:2,9 

50:2,11,14,19 

51:2,11,13,16,20 

52:1,6,9,13,16.19 

53:2.10,14,19,21 

54:2,6,10,17,21 

55:4.9,22 56:9.14 

56:19 57:3,6,11 

57:15,21 58:4,14 

Pag e 96 

58:17 59:1,6,12 

59:1960:17,20 

61:1,4,7,12,18 

62:1,4,9,12,14,17 

63:4,9.15 64:3,7 

64:11,16,22 65:9 

65:13,17,21 66:2 

66:5,8,14,20 67:2 

67:11,14.1768:1 

68:5,10,13,19 

69:1,8,13,16,22 

70:5,8,1271:1,7 

71:13,18,22 72:6 

72:10,18 73:2,6 

73:10,18,22 74:4 

74:16 75:6,11,17 

75:22 76:5.8.11 

76:17,21 77:5.9 

77:15 78:8,13,22 

79:2,6,9,15,19 

80:5,14 81:3,7,17 

81:22 82:6,9,13 

82:21 83:5.11,17 

84:2.4,10 85:3,6 

85:13,22 86:3,12 

86:15,20 87:1.5.7 

1 

12:5 10:14,14,18 

10:19 

1st 83:16,17 86:16 

86:18 

100 66:5 

103(a)(1) 64:4 

106 64:14 

1099 28:21 

119:845:10 

11434 2:5 

12 8:20 

121-103(a)(I)64:5 

121-10664:7,11 

13 1:13 10:4 

138 69:19 

147:9 9:16 

159:17 10:6 86:3 

15th 86:1 

1500 63:12,14 67:6 

Nea l R. Gross & Co. , Inc . 

202-234-443 3 
Page 97 

169:4 10:7,945:7 

51:17 

16th49:10,ll 

52:11 

1676 2:12 

1689 2:20 

17 105 73-12 

1836:9 

1975 28:22 

1988 29:1 

2 

2 76:1 

2nd 28'''0 

2:59 3:2 

200 57:19,22 

2008 8:20 9:4,15 

36:9 

2008EA2700054 

6:6 

2008EA270054 

5:21 

20104:16 

20II 1:13 

2146:22 

22 10:12,18 

22102 2:14 

25 52:7 54:4.22 

25th 52:13,20 

54:11 

27 32:4 33:1942:6 

44:21 52:3 55:2 

27th43:18 53:4,11 

53:22 83:6 

28 49:17 

28th 4:3,4,5 

29 38:1747:3 56:15 

86:13 

3 

3:00 1:15 

3:30 30:10 

3:37 30:11 

30 77:16,22 

30,00040:3 

33 37:11 38:10,13 

38:21 56:14,16 

336-8700 2:15 

34 56:4 57:7 77:17 

348-4100 2:22 

35 28:21 65:8 66:21 

66:22 67:4 

37F 28:20 

38132 2:21 

4 

4,000 70:13 

4:27 87:11 

40 77:22 

421 28:21 

4803 36:8 

5 

5 9:15 37:4 

553-3273 2:6 

^ 6 

6 57:9 

7 

747:5 57:9 

703 2:15 

7182:6 

7700 70:1 

8 

8 28:20 57:9 

9 

901 2:22 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc 

202-234-4433 
98 

CERTIFICAT E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Colgan Air, Inc. 

Before; USDOT/FAA 

Date: 07-13-11 

Place: {telephone conference) 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed unde; 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

(202) 23^4433 WASHINGTON. D.C 20005-3701 www.nealrgross com