# Date: April 30, 2015

**Case:** The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Phone: 202-347-3700 Fax: 202-737-3638 Email: info@acefederal.com Internet: www.acefederal.comThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY PUBLIC MEETING THE RESIDENTIAL STANDARDS BOILERS MEETING

U.S. Department of Energy Forrestal Building, Room 8E-089 1000 Independence Avenue, SW Washington, DC 20585

9:14 a.m. Thursday, April 30, 2015The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## Appearances for Department of Energy Meeting 2 3 

## Doug Brookman, Chair 4 

## John Cymbalsky, DOE 5 

## Eric Stas, DOE 6 

## Andrew Allen, Navigant 7 

## Catherine Rivest, Navigant 8 

## Adam Darlington, Navigant 9 

## Christopher Lau, Navigant 10 

## Caroline Davidson-Hood, Air-Conditioning, Heating, & 11 

## Refrigeration Institute 12 

## Nicholas Mislak, Air-Conditioning, Heating & 13 

## Refrigeration Institute 14 

## Amy Shepherd, Air-Conditioning, Heating & 15 

## Refrigeration Institute 16 

## Aykut Yilmaz, Air-Conditioning, Heating & 17 

## Refrigeration Institute 18 

## Frank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating & 19 

## Refrigeration Institute 20 

## Don Farrell, Oilheat Manufacturers Association 21 

## Victor Franco, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory 22 

## Alex Lekov, Lawrence Berkeley National LaboratoryThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## Roger Marran, Energy Kinetics 2 

## Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness Project 3 

## Sarah A. Medepalli, ICF International 4 

## Gary Hainley, U.S. Boiler Company 5 

## Christine Hazelbaker, ACCA 6 

## Richard D. Murphy, American Gas Association 7 

## John A. Roda, Burnham Holdings 8 

## Steven J. Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute 9 

## Paul Sohler, Crown Boiler Co. 10 

## Gregory J. Stunder, PGW 11 

## Cory Weiss, Fieldcontrols 12 

## Anurag Maheshwary, Department of Justice 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## P R O C E E D I N G S 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning everyone. 3 

## Welcome. So glad to see you here this morning. This 4 

## is the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking Public Meeting 5 

## on Energy Conservation Standards for Residential 6 

## Boiler. Today is Thursday, April 30, 2015, here in 7 

## the Forestal Building in Washington, D.C. 8 

## My name is Doug Brookman, Public 9 

## Solutions, Baltimore. Nice to see you this morning. 10 

## We're going to start with welcoming remarks from John 11 

## Cymbalsky. 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you Doug. My name 13 

## is John Cymbalsky. I'm the Program Manager for 14 

## Appliance and Equipment Standards here at DOE. I'd 15 

## like to welcome everyone here today for the public 16 

## meeting for our proposal on residential boilers. 17 

## Also, welcome all of those on the webinar. 18 

## Hopefully, today we'll have good connection to the 19 

## webinar and the audio. 20 

## We're in a room that we're generally not 21 

## in for our meetings, so hopefully all with go smooth. 22 

## If not, please, folks on the webinar just try to getThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## in contact with us if things aren't going smoothly so 2 

## we can try to rectify that, but DOE appreciates 3 

## everyone's comments on this rule as we go along 4 

## today. So, please don't be shy about raising any 5 

## comments you have with the presentations here. Thank 6 

## you. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And just to be a little 8 

## more specific, we're hoping that those of you joining 9 

## us via the web that you can hear everything that's 10 

## going on in the room. And some of you have 11 

## representatives here in the room. If you could text 12 

## them or communicate with them via email if you're 13 

## having a hard time picking up the audio or the visual 14 

## -- I think the audio is the one we're concerned 15 

## about. The visual seems to be working well, but 16 

## hopefully this will all come together the way it 17 

## should. 18 

## All of you received a packet of 19 

## information, I hope. On Slide Number 6, you can see 20 

## an agenda as listed. Immediately following this 21 

## agenda review and a few preliminary slides, there's 22 

## an opportunity for summary remarks here at theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## outset, brief opening remarks from anyone who wishes 2 

## to here at the outset. 3 

## Moving on from there, we will go through 4 

## this packet of information and this content, starting 5 

## with marketing and technology assessment and then 6 

## screening analysis, and then engineering analysis, 7 

## and proceeding markups analyses and energy use 8 

## characterization. 9 

## We'll take a mid-morning break around 10 

## about 10:30 or so. We'll proceed with life cycle 11 

## costs and pay period analysis and then shipments, 12 

## national impact analyses, RIA. We'll take lunch 13 

## around about 12:30 or so, probably, and then 14 

## proceeding or whenever we get there manufacture 15 

## impact analysis, environmental impacts, indirect 16 

## employment, and then at the end of the day today, 17 

## whenever we arrive there, yet another opportunity for 18 

## comment. 19 

## We want to make sure everybody gets the 20 

## chance to say everything they need to say or want to 21 

## say here during the course of this meeting. 22 

## Comments, questions on the agenda?The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## (No response.) 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Seeing none, I'd ask for 3 

## your consideration. Please speak one at a time, if 4 

## you would, here today. You can get used to turning 5 

## these microphones and off. We're going to do 6 

## introductions in a moment. You can get used to doing 7 

## that. If you'd say your name for the record each 8 

## time you speak. You don't need to say your 9 

## organizational affiliation unless you wish to. 10 

## If you could keep the focus here and try 11 

## and make your comments as succinct as possible, and 12 

## please turn your cell phones on vibrate, on silent 13 

## mode, if you would, so that we don't interrupt the 14 

## meeting here. And those joining via the web, we 15 

## certainly do welcome you. Hope you can participate 16 

## fully in this meeting. If you'd turn your telephones 17 

## on mute, and then you can raise your hand in the 18 

## software provided. And if we're luckily -- this is a 19 

## new room, as John Cymbalsky said, for us. 20 

## If we're lucky, we ought to be able to 21 

## hear you in the room. The audio seems to be 22 

## excellent so far. We'll see if the technology worksThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## to our advantage or not. 2 

## Questions and comments before we proceed 3 

## with introductions? 4 

## (No response.) 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So, let's do that. The 6 

## little green light gets illuminated, name and 7 

## organizational affiliation. We'll just go around. 8 

## MR. SOHLER: Paul Sohler, Crown Boiler 9 

## Company. 10 

## MR. MARRAN: Roger Marran, Energy 11 

## Kinetics. 12 

## MR. FARRELL: Don Farrell, Oil Heat 13 

## Manufacturers Association. 14 

## MS. HAZELBAKER: Christine Hazelbaker, Air 15 

## Conditioning Contractors of America, or ACCA, the 16 

## Indoor Environment and Energy Efficiency Association. 17 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 18 

## Electric Institute. 19 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, Air 20 

## Conditioning, Heating, Refrigeration Institute. 21 

## MR. MURPHY: Rick Murphy, American Gas 22 

## Association.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MS. MEDEPALLI: Sarah Medepalli, ICF 2 

## International, representing EPA. 3 

## MR. RODA: John Roda with Burnham 4 

## Holdings. We're the parent company of Crown Boiler, 5 

## U.S. Boiler, and New Yorker Boiler. 6 

## MR. HAINLEY: Gary Hainley, U.S. Boiler 7 

## Company. 8 

## MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance 9 

## Standards Awareness Project. 10 

## MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence Berkeley 11 

## National Laboratory. 12 

## MR. FRANCO: Victor Franco, Lawrence 13 

## Berkeley National Laboratory. 14 

## MS. RIVEST: Catherine Rivest, Navigant 15 

## Consulting. 16 

## MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington, Navigant. 17 

## MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE General 18 

## Counsel's Office. 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE. 20 

## MR. STUNDER: Greg Stunder, Philadelphia 21 

## Gas Works. 22 

## MR. LAU: Chris Lau, Navigant.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. ALLEN: Andrew Allen, Navigant. 2 

## MR. MAHESHWARY: Anurag Maheshwary, 3 

## Department of Justice. 4 

## MR. YILMUZ: Aykut Yilmuz, AHRI. 5 

## MR. MISLAK: Nicholas Mislak, AHRI. 6 

## MS. DAVIDSON-HOOD: Caroline 7 

## Davidson-Hood, AHRI. 8 

## MR. WEISS: Cory Weiss, Field Controls. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Great. Thanks to 10 

## all of you. Welcome again. Glad to see you this 11 

## morning. 12 

## There are a few preliminary slides that 13 

## John Cymbalsky is going to read through. Okay. 14 

## Great. Thanks to all of you. Welcome again. Glad 15 

## to see you this morning. 16 

## There are a few preliminary slides that 17 

## John Cymbalsky is going to read through. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, so again, welcome 19 

## everyone to the meeting and welcome to those on the 20 

## web. The slide just reiterates that we want to make 21 

## these meetings as accessible as possible, not only in 22 

## person but obviously around the country and aroundThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## the world on the webcast, so please feel free to 2 

## speak up. Even though you're not in the room, you 3 

## are virtually here and we appreciate your attendance. 4 

## So, the purpose of today's meeting is to 5 

## present the Proposal for Residential Boilers. We're 6 

## going to go through the slide deck and detail our 7 

## analysis, both on the engineer side and on the 8 

## economic side. 9 

## As we go through this, please feel free to 10 

## chime in with comments and questions. You will also 11 

## see little comment boxes as we go along, and you can 12 

## see one on this slide on the bottom. That's what a 13 

## comment box looks like, and we will point out 14 

## specific items of interest to DOE, not that all of 15 

## them aren't important, but there are some that we 16 

## find we need more information if we can get it. So, 17 

## at this time, we'll take opening remarks from anyone 18 

## who might have one. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Summary statements here at 20 

## the outset. Joanna? 21 

## MS. MAUER: We're supportive of the 22 

## proposed standards that would result in significantThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## national energy savings and savings for consumers, 2 

## and there are a large number of models available 3 

## today at the proposed AFUE levels. 4 

## We do note that there is a large 5 

## additional opportunity for energy savings at 6 

## condensing levels for hot water boilers. DOE 7 

## estimates that national energy savings at condensing 8 

## levels would be more than five times larger than the 9 

## savings at the proposed standard levels and so we 10 

## encourage DOE to continue to consider condensing 11 

## levels for hot water boilers. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. We're going to 13 

## have to get close to these microphones as we speak. 14 

## Steve Rosenstock. 15 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 16 

## Electric Institute. 17 

## I just wanted to thank the Department in 18 

## this case for doing a rule that is fuel and market 19 

## neutral by looking at all different types of boilers 20 

## that are competing in the marketplace. Looking at 21 

## them and deciding on standards that are going to 22 

## affect at the same time. I believe that whatever theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## final result is, by doing this process, I believe it 2 

## will be better for overall in terms of the final 3 

## result. Thank you. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Additional 5 

## comments here at the outset? Opening remarks? 6 

## Nothing additional? 7 

## (No response.) 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, we're going to press 9 

## on with the content. 10 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John Cymbalsky, 11 

## DOE, again. 12 

## I did receive from our staff a request to 13 

## do a presentation at today's meeting. Does that 14 

## still hold? I think it was maybe Crown Boiler? 15 

## MR. STUNDER: It wasn't Crown. 16 

## MR. HAILEY: Burnham Holdings Group had an 17 

## opening statement not a presentation. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. I think now would 19 

## be your time before we move on. 20 

## MR. HAINLEY: So, I'm Gary Hainley with 21 

## U.S. Boiler Company and I'm also speaking on behalf 22 

## of the Burnham Holdings Group of Residential BoilerThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## Companies, which is U.S. Boiler, Crown, and New 2 

## Yorker. 3 

## We thank the Department for allowing us to 4 

## make oral comments. One of the concerns we have is 5 

## the simultaneous promulgation of the test procedure 6 

## as well as the rulemaking. And just find that it's 7 

## challenging for us to make final comments on the 8 

## proposed rule until we know how we're actually going 9 

## to be measured. 10 

## We feel that the test procedure will 11 

## reduce existing products by 1 to 2 percent AFUE 12 

## points and we really need to get a handle on that 13 

## before we can fully comment on this rulemaking. 14 

## Additionally, we feel that the biggest concern for us 15 

## is the 85 percent standard for gas-fired hot water 16 

## boilers, that, in essence, we run the risk of 17 

## eliminating chimney venting, that at 85 percent the 18 

## flue gas temperatures are reduced to such a extent 19 

## that many of the chimneys in place today just won't 20 

## be able to be used. 21 

## And with 85 as the federal minimum, 22 

## consumers no longer have the choice of using an 82,The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## 83 percent product as they do today and it would 2 

## force them either into repairing an existing product 3 

## at lower efficiency and not upgrading or going to a 4 

## much more expensive retrofit to be able to get that 5 

## newer product. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you Gary. Additional 7 

## comments, perhaps final comments here before we 8 

## proceed with the content. 9 

## (No response.) 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, proceed. 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, John Cymbalsky 12 

## again. 13 

## (Slide.) 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, this slide just shows 15 

## you what the request for comment boxes look like, and 16 

## they'll be sprinkled throughout the presentation 17 

## today. 18 

## As noted on the slide, the deadline for 19 

## submitting comments is June 1, 2015. Doug already 20 

## went through the agenda, and so we're going to dive 21 

## right in with the regulatory authority. So, several 22 

## pieces of legislation that became --The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: We have a quick question or 2 

## comment. 3 

## MR. RODA: Yes, a question as to the June 1 4 

## deadline. I understand a request has been made to 5 

## extend that. Is that pending right now, a decision 6 

## on that? 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I personally have not 8 

## received a request for extension. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Please say your name. 10 

## MR. FARRELL: This is Don Farrell from the 11 

## Oil Heat Manufacturers Association. We did send a 12 

## request for an extension on the 27th, so it was very 13 

## recently. Basically, the thought is that with -- 14 

## it's just too big of an issue for us to properly 15 

## comment on in that short time period. We request an 16 

## extension to at least 120 days so that we can 17 

## properly digest the 900-page technical document, the 18 

## changing of the testing procedure, along with 19 

## changing the efficiency ratings. 20 

## In order for us to be able to give a 21 

## proper, thought out, digestible response, we feel 22 

## that the June 1 deadline is just way too short.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you. So, if 2 

## you don't mind emailing that to me personally so I 3 

## have it. 4 

## MR. FARRELL: Okay. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm fairly certain it 6 

## didn't come to my inbox. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 8 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 9 

## Yes, we submitted a request for extension 10 

## for an additional 60 days, and I directed it to the 11 

## people identified in the NOPR, so it went to Eric and 12 

## Ron Majet. I'll be glad to send you a copy of it. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Yes, unfortunately, 14 

## Ron's fairly ill recently, so that could fall through 15 

## the cracks; but if you could email and the docket as 16 

## well that would be very helpful. 17 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that 19 

## clarification. Now, we're going to proceed with the 20 

## content. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, so we're going to 22 

## start off with our regulatory authority. So, there'sThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## three particular pieces of legislation that are 2 

## applicable here. So, there's EPCA of 1975, NAECA of 3 

## 1987, and then EISA of 2007. Each one of these set 4 

## different requirements for DOE in order to go forward 5 

## with standards for boilers. 6 

## (Slide.) 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, NAECA established the 8 

## initial standards for boilers, and you can see the 9 

## cite to the U.S. Code there. DOE published a final 10 

## rule in November of 2007. And then EISA in 2007 11 

## further revised the AFUE requirements and also set 12 

## several design requirements for each product class. 13 

## So, for gas-fired hot water, oil-fired hot 14 

## water, and electric hot water boilers manufactured 15 

## after September 1, 2012, must have an automatic means 16 

## for adjusting the water temperature and also 17 

## disallowed the use of constant burning pilot lights 18 

## in gas-fired hot water and gas-fired steam boilers 19 

## manufactured after the same date. 20 

## (Slide.) 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, this table here just 22 

## gives a summary of what the AFUE requirements and theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## design requirements are for the five product classes 2 

## shown here. I will not read through them. I'm fairly 3 

## certain most people are familiar with what the 4 

## requirements are at this stage. 5 

## (Slide.) 6 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: The next slide shows the 7 

## criteria for selecting standards levels. So, we have 8 

## what we call the EPCA seven factors, which are listed 9 

## here. And so for each one of those seven factors DOE 10 

## does some rigorous analysis around each one of those 11 

## factors to determine how to move forward with its 12 

## proposed standard level. Today we will walk through 13 

## each of these. I won't read them now, but we will go 14 

## through them one-by-one. 15 

## (Slide.) 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: The next slide shows where 17 

## our schedule is today. I understand we have a 18 

## request for comment extension, and so that may not be 19 

## factored into what you're seeing here today. So, 20 

## once we get all those comment extensions filed and 21 

## thought about, we will certainly let the stakeholders 22 

## know what the decision is from the Department and weThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## will adjust the schedule accordingly; but you could 2 

## see the different milestones here. 3 

## So, at this point, we project the 4 

## compliance date to whatever standard might become 5 

## final to be December 2020, and that's when 6 

## manufacturers would be required to meet any standard 7 

## that DOE goes final with. 8 

## (Slide.) 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And then here is our flow 10 

## chart where we sit today. So, you could see the four 11 

## chevrons. We're at the NOPR stage. Once we have all 12 

## the public comments, we will proceed to the final 13 

## rule stage where DOE will let stakeholders know what 14 

## its final decision is. 15 

## And then at this point, we're going to 16 

## turn it over to the market and technology assessment 17 

## and pass it over to Catherine Rivest of Navigant. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Question, please. Say your 19 

## name. 20 

## MR. MURPHY: Rick Murphy. 21 

## John, quick question on the request for 22 

## extensions, are those posted to the docket folder forThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## the rulemaking. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: They will be if they're 3 

## not already, yes. I just need to gather them all. 4 

## I'm sorry I didn't get them personally, but we will 5 

## make sure they're in there. 6 

## MR. MURPHY: Thank you. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Catherine Rivest. 8 

## MS. RIVEST: Thank you, John. I'm 9 

## Catherine Rivest of Navigant Consulting, and I'll be 10 

## going over the market and technology assessment, the 11 

## screening analysis, and the engineering analysis. 12 

## (Slide.) 13 

## MS. RIVEST: So, the purpose of the market 14 

## and technology assessment is to pull together all of 15 

## the information needed to structure the engineering 16 

## analysis so we can build representative cost curves. 17 

## So, the type of information DOE is interested in 18 

## answering our questions that include what types of 19 

## residential boilers are being sold, in what 20 

## quantities are they being sold, at which efficiencies 21 

## are they being sold, what technologies are included 22 

## in them, who manufactures them, and all of thisThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## information is used to inform the engineering 2 

## analysis. 3 

## (Slide.) 4 

## MS. RIVEST: So, as you can see, the 5 

## Department breaks up residential boilers into six 6 

## different product classes on the basis of both fuel 7 

## type as well as heating median. And one thing to 8 

## note on this slide is that DOE did not analyze 9 

## electric boilers for active mode standards, only 10 

## standby and off mode standards. 11 

## (Slide.) 12 

## MS. RIVEST: So, looking at the relative 13 

## sales of the different product classes, you'll see 14 

## that gas-fired hot water boilers are accountable for 15 

## the majority of the shipments, along with oil-fired 16 

## hot water boilers, so DOE focused its analysis on the 17 

## hot water product classes. And depending upon the 18 

## product classes as well as the efficiency levels, 19 

## residential boilers could be made up of a variety of 20 

## different heat exchanger materials. 21 

## (Slide.) 22 

## MS. RIVEST: So, this figure here showsThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## the distribution of AFUE levels among gas-fired hot 2 

## water boilers. And so this distribution is useful to 3 

## DOE in the engineering analysis where there is a 4 

## selection of efficiency levels to analyze. 5 

## So, as you can see, the distribution is 6 

## broken out into two different segments, with the left 7 

## being non-condensing boilers and the right being 8 

## condensing boilers. And you'll notice that the 9 

## majority of non-condensing boilers are made up of 10 

## cast iron with some copper and some steel, while 11 

## condensing boilers are typically made with a more 12 

## corrosive-resistant heat exchanger, such as stainless 13 

## steel or aluminum. 14 

## So, gas-fired steam boilers tend to have a 15 

## much narrower band of efficiencies from 81 to 83 AFUE 16 

## and are generally made up of cast iron heat 17 

## exchangers. And so, for oil-fired hot water boilers 18 

## the range is much larger with the baseline coming in 19 

## at 84 and the max on the market at 93 AFUE, and 20 

## they're primarily comprised of cast iron and steel in 21 

## the non-condensing efficiency ranges. And oil-fired 22 

## steam goes from 82 to 86 AFUE, with the majority ofThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## models coming in at 84 AFUE and being comprised of 2 

## cast iron. 3 

## (Slide.) 4 

## MS. RIVEST: So, in the technology 5 

## assessment, DOE developed a list of technology 6 

## options that could be used to improve residential 7 

## boiler efficiency as measured by the test procedure. 8 

## So, the two tables here list the technology options 9 

## that could be used to improve AFUE as well as standby 10 

## and off mode energy consumption. And one thing to 11 

## note is that this list includes all of the technology 12 

## options that could be used for every product class 13 

## and they're not all relevant to every product class. 14 

## And another thing to note is that this 15 

## list includes technologies that are incorporated in 16 

## the baseline, so DOE accounted for that. 17 

## (Slide.) 18 

## MS. RIVEST: And so the purpose of the 19 

## screening analysis is to screen out technologies that 20 

## won't be used in the engineering analysis. And DOE 21 

## does this by looking at every technology option and 22 

## screening it from the criteria to see if it'sThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## technologically feasible, if it's practicable to 2 

## manufacture, install, and service, and if it has any 3 

## adverse impacts on the product utility or impacts on 4 

## health and safety. 5 

## So, in the screening analysis, DOE 6 

## screened out three technology options on the basis of 7 

## potential impacts to product utility, and those were 8 

## pulse combustion, burner de-rating, as well as 9 

## control relay to depower VPM motors. 10 

## (Slide.) 11 

## MS. RIVEST: So, moving on to the 12 

## engineering analysis. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? 14 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi, Steven Rosenstock. 15 

## When you say could reduce a customer 16 

## utility is that because some of these technologies 17 

## have reduced the utility in the marketplace or -- 18 

## again, maybe it's in the technical support document 19 

## -- when you say could reduce, does it mean that in 20 

## certain cases that it has and that's why it's too 21 

## much of a risk to do that for a standard? 22 

## MS. RIVEST: It sort of depends on theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## technology, but it could be seen as producing product 2 

## utility. Sorry. 3 

## MR. DARLINGTON: So, Steve, I think the 4 

## customer utility is a little bit subject, depending 5 

## on the customer, right? So, I think that this is 6 

## just saying that you know -- so, for instance, a 7 

## pulse combustion system you know it might be louder. 8 

## It might be you know less reliable. Depending on the 9 

## consumer, that may or may not be a big deal, Burner B 10 

## rating you're going to get a little bit less heat 11 

## output when you temper your burner down. So, 12 

## depending on that consumer's needs, it would reduce 13 

## the utility if they need the full heat output, right? 14 

## So, I guess that's why we said could reduce consumer 15 

## utility. But yes, I mean they presumably would in 16 

## certain instances, right, so that's why they were 17 

## screened out? 18 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 20 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 21 

## Yes, before we get off or too far away 22 

## from this, I understand you looked at distribution ofThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## listings by efficiency and made the point before 2 

## that's really not the distribution of what gets 3 

## shipped and we will try and provide some information 4 

## that can better characterize what actually is rolling 5 

## out people's doors as opposed to what gets listed. 6 

## MS. RIVEST: That would be very helpful. 7 

## Thank you. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here 9 

## before we move on to the engineering analysis? 10 

## (No response.) 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 12 

## (Slide.) 13 

## MS. RIVEST: So, the purpose of the 14 

## engineering analysis is to see how manufacturer costs 15 

## and selling price changes with increased efficiency. 16 

## And so for the active-mode efficiency analysis DOE 17 

## used an efficiency level approach where DOE selected 18 

## efficiency levels and to determine their manufacturer 19 

## production costs at those levels. 20 

## For the standby and off mode analysis, DOE 21 

## used a design option approach and DOE relied on a 22 

## variety of sources of information in the engineeringThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## analysis, so this included product tear downs, 2 

## manufacturer interviews, product testing, product 3 

## literature as well as product databases. 4 

## (Slide.) 5 

## MS. RIVEST: And this slide is just meant 6 

## to provide a general overview of the steps in the 7 

## engineering analysis, starting from the information 8 

## that's fed in from the market and technology 9 

## assessment to the selection of efficiency levels and 10 

## the selection of units for tear down up until the 11 

## determination of the industry average manufacturer 12 

## production cost. And we'll go through each of these 13 

## in the coming slides. 14 

## (Slide.) 15 

## MS. RIVEST: So, as you'll see from the 16 

## table, DOE performed a full tear-down analysis for 17 

## those product classes with the highest percentage of 18 

## shipments, and this consisted of many tear downs 19 

## across a range of efficiency levels. And DOE used an 20 

## alternate analysis for lower shipment product 21 

## classes, which relied on a smaller number of tear 22 

## downs as well as information obtained from similarThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## product classes and product literature. 2 

## (Slide.) 3 

## MS. RIVEST: So, discussing the baseline 4 

## units, so a typical baseline unit is a unit that just 5 

## meets the federal minimum efficiency standard and 6 

## this table lists the baseline characteristics of the 7 

## different product classes that were analyzed for 8 

## active mode efficiency standards. 9 

## So, you'll see some common characteristics 10 

## include cast iron sectional boilers, and the 11 

## representative input capacity for gas-fired products 12 

## was determined to be 100,000 BTUs per hour and that 13 

## of oil was determined to be 140,000 BTUs per hour. 14 

## (Slide.) 15 

## MS. RIVEST: So, the first step of the 16 

## engineering analysis is the selection of AFUE levels. 17 

## And between the baseline and -- DOE also selected the 18 

## max tech AFUE levels, which is the maximum efficient 19 

## models on the market. 20 

## And in between those two levels, DOE 21 

## selected intermediate efficiency levels where the 22 

## majority of products were determined to be as well asThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## anywhere there was a major change in technology. And 2 

## so this slide just shows all of the efficiency levels 3 

## that were analyzed in the active mode AFUE standards 4 

## analysis. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, question? John, 6 

## microphone, please and say your name. 7 

## MR. RODER: Catherine, I'm relatively new 8 

## to this. Can you define a term for me? What do you 9 

## mean by full tear-down analysis? I know that takes 10 

## you back a slide or two. 11 

## MS. RIVEST: Sure. So, a full tear-down 12 

## analysis is when DOE completely dissembles a unit and 13 

## catalogs each and every part according to its 14 

## material, the weight, and the processes used and then 15 

## creates a bill of material, which is ultimately 16 

## determined -- is ultimately used to determine the 17 

## manufacturer production costs, the estimated 18 

## manufacturer production cost. 19 

## MR. RODER: Okay. Thank you. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. Rick. 21 

## MR. MURPHY: Rick Murphy. 22 

## Just a process question, is this work --The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## was this work done prior to the Notice of Data of 2 

## Availability that was issued last year or after or 3 

## both? 4 

## MS. RIVEST: Both. It built upon the 5 

## information that was disclosed in the Notice of Data 6 

## Availability. 7 

## MR. MURPHY: Thank you. 8 

## MS. RIVEST: So, DOE selected units for 9 

## tear downs spanning all efficiency levels, and DOE 10 

## also chose products for tear down from multiple 11 

## manufacturers in order to account for different 12 

## fabrication techniques that may have been used. And 13 

## so DOE used three different practices in the 14 

## engineering analysis to come up with the cost 15 

## efficiency curves. 16 

## So, this included physical tear downs 17 

## where DOE dissembles the units into its component 18 

## parts, a process called catalog tear downs, which is 19 

## similar to physical tear downs, which DOE estimates 20 

## the difference between a unit that has had a physical 21 

## tear down and another unit that is very similar. So, 22 

## an example of this might be the addition of a heatThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## exchanger to a model that has been torn down. 2 

## And DOE also used an alternate analysis 3 

## for the steam product classes, so rather than 4 

## conducting tear downs at each efficiency level for 5 

## the steam product class; DOE relied on information 6 

## obtained from the hot water boiler product classes 7 

## along with product literature information. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Frank Stanonik. 9 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, for HRI. 10 

## So, I guess not specific to the tear down, 11 

## but I think maybe this is the place to ask the 12 

## question, in the case of residential boilers you 13 

## really have a wider range of inputs available 14 

## compared to like furnaces. I mean you know the 15 

## definition of residential boilers stops at, what, 16 

## just under 300,000 BTUs per hour. And so the 17 

## question would be, so yeah, you've tear down baseline 18 

## units and that's typical. It's understandable, but I 19 

## guess I'm curious as to is there at some point where 20 

## you look at trying to, in this case, extrapolate that 21 

## -- actually go both ways, I guess, that tear down 22 

## information to some of the let's say larger inputThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## boilers that are still out there and maybe even some 2 

## of the smaller ones? 3 

## MS. RIVEST: So, we hadn't seen the 4 

## efficiency really varied based off the size, the 5 

## capacity, and so, no, we did not extrapolate. 6 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. 7 

## MS. RIVEST: Well, directly in the 8 

## engineering analysis. 9 

## MR. STANONIK: Yes, I guess my concern is, 10 

## and I certainly will talk to our members about it, 11 

## but my concern is that maybe the cost becomes a bit 12 

## different when you're looking -- again, you tore down 13 

## the baseline. That's logical. That's appropriate, 14 

## but I'm starting to wonder because they're still 15 

## offering units with higher inputs and again, I will 16 

## probably say it more than once, we're not talking 17 

## about the big market of furnaces. We're talking 18 

## about a relatively small market of residential 19 

## boilers, so the issue of what might be the 20 

## manufacturing cost for a let's say 250,000 BTU boiler 21 

## may not just be a simple linear scale. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. HAINLEY: Gary Hainley, U.S. Boiler. 2 

## Frank's correct in that our cost structure 3 

## is going to change as we get to the larger boilers. 4 

## The lower boiler, the smaller boilers we manufacture 5 

## in higher volume, but once we start going above that 6 

## our cost to manufacture will be different because of 7 

## size of the parts and also just the volume. We don't 8 

## have the economies of scale to hard tool some of the 9 

## parts that we may hard tool for smaller boiler sizes. 10 

## That's a good point, Frank. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 12 

## (Slide.) 13 

## MS. RIVEST: So, this slide provides an 14 

## overview of the active mode engineering analysis of 15 

## each specific AFUE level, and AFUE levels highlighted 16 

## in green indicate that one or more tear downs were 17 

## conducted at that efficiency level. And those 18 

## highlighted in purple indicate that those results 19 

## were obtained through linear interpolation. And as 20 

## noted in the previous slide, a few of the efficiency 21 

## levels in the steam product classes were determined 22 

## using the alternate methodology, which relied onThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## information, obtained from the hot water product 2 

## classes. 3 

## (Slide.) 4 

## MS. RIVEST: So, after developing the 5 

## manufacturer production costs for each unit that was 6 

## torn down, the next step is to aggregate the 7 

## individual results into an industry cost efficiency 8 

## relationship. And so this is the industry average 9 

## cost efficiency relationship for gas-fired hot water 10 

## boilers. And what's primarily driving the increase 11 

## in costs in the non-condensing level is an increase 12 

## in heat exchanger service area and the jump at 90 is 13 

## due to the need for condensing, condensing heat 14 

## exchanger. 15 

## So, the cost associated with gas-fired 16 

## steam is largely driven by, again, a need for an 17 

## increase in heat exchanger surface area. And again, 18 

## in the non-condensing AFUE levels the cost is driven 19 

## by an increase in surface area, while for the 91 AFUE 20 

## point that's caused by a need for an increased heat 21 

## exchanger area as well as the need for a secondary 22 

## heat exchanger. And the cost for oil-fired steam areThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## due to a need for an increase in heat exchangers 2 

## surface area, for the large part. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 4 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 5 

## If you could actually step back, Slide 33. 6 

## Okay, I guess I just want to make sure I'm 7 

## understanding what I see here. So, the first bullet 8 

## says you created cost efficiency curves for each 9 

## major manufacturer, and then we have the little I'll 10 

## say simulated pairs down there on the left. And the 11 

## note says "Stylized graphics not based on actual 12 

## data." So, okay, I'm reading the first one that you 13 

## talked to some manufacturers and came up with rough 14 

## approximations; is that an incorrect understanding on 15 

## the first bullet there? 16 

## MS. RIVEST: That we came up with rough 17 

## approximation for? 18 

## MR. STANONIK: Well, it says, "DOE created 19 

## cost efficiency curves for each major manufacturer." 20 

## I guess which major manufacturer? Are we talking 21 

## about a general manufacturer of hot water boiler or a 22 

## general manufacturer ^^^^ something's not trackingThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## for me. I'm sorry. 2 

## MR. DARLINGTON: This is Adam from 3 

## Navigant. 4 

## So, what the first bullet is trying to say 5 

## is that we did tear downs looking at mainly the major 6 

## manufacturers. So, for each major manufacturer we 7 

## were looking at their units specifically. So, say we 8 

## had Manufacturer A or Manufacturer Number 1 in this 9 

## little simulated graphic here, so we had multiple 10 

## points for that manufacturer. 11 

## We would look at what does it cost for 12 

## that manufacturer to go from 82 to 84 to 95 or you 13 

## know whatever the efficiency levels were that we were 14 

## looking at and then we would have a cost efficiency 15 

## curve for that specific manufacturer. We would have 16 

## it for Manufacturer 2 and Manufacturer 3, look at 17 

## them all separately to see what each individual 18 

## manufacturer what it cost them to increase efficiency 19 

## and then we would merge those together to create sort 20 

## of an industry weighted average for increasing the 21 

## efficiency. 22 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay, it was based on theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## tear down stuff. I missed that. Okay. Thanks. 2 

## (Slide.) 3 

## MS. RIVEST: So, the non-condensing 4 

## boilers may come equipped with inducer fans; however, 5 

## inducer fans were not show in the graphics that we 6 

## just saw and the manufacturer production cost 7 

## efficiency curves shown in the preceding slide did 8 

## not include the cost of an inducer fan. DOE did 9 

## estimate the cost of an inducer fan between a boiler 10 

## with natural draft and the same model with induced 11 

## draft, and it was found to be $94. And this cost 12 

## adder is included in the downstream analysis based on 13 

## a percentage of models that would be expected to need 14 

## induced draft at a given efficiency level. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank. 16 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 17 

## Catherine, can you tell us what that 18 

## assumed percentage was; do you know offhand? 19 

## MR. DARLINGTON: It's in a later slide. 20 

## MR. STONONIK: Okay. All right, well then 21 

## I'll wait. 22 

## MS. RIVEST: So, DOE is seeking comments.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: So, a fair amount of 2 

## content in those engineering analysis slide. 3 

## Comments here? Frank Stanonik. 4 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 5 

## I mean I'll wait, but I'll also make the 6 

## comment that at the level that DOE's proposing we 7 

## think because of the manufacturer's need to make sure 8 

## that products will be properly and safely installed 9 

## in the field and trying to address what is the 10 

## variety of installations we think that that level 11 

## will, in fact, probably drive a majority of products 12 

## to have some kind of draft inducers or some 13 

## additional mechanical component added to the boiler, 14 

## and so we think there's a real issue there. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Rick. 16 

## MR. MURPHY: Rick Murphy, AGA. 17 

## I'm trying to understand what actually 18 

## happened between the point in time where the Notice 19 

## of Data Availability came out that indicated that 20 

## there was not a justification for raising the 21 

## efficiency levels and where we are today. So, in the 22 

## engineering analysis, can you share with us some ofThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## the additional engineering analysis work that was 2 

## done after the Notice of Data Availability and what 3 

## prompted that? 4 

## MS. RIVEST: So, in terms of the 5 

## engineering analysis, several more tear downs were 6 

## performed for the cost efficiency curve side. 7 

## MR. MURPHY: I'm a little confused by the 8 

## note -- your statement that it showed that it was -- 9 

## the NODA didn't do anything of the sort. 10 

## MR. DARLINGTON: I thought in the NODA it 11 

## had identified that based upon the preliminary 12 

## analysis that DOE did not see a justification for 13 

## increasing the statement. 14 

## MR. MURPHY: That statement was never 15 

## made. 16 

## MS. RIVEST: I think the statement that 17 

## was made is that DOE was not advocating for a 18 

## specific efficiency level in the NODA. It was just 19 

## providing information without giving a stance. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please, Gary. 21 

## MR. HAINLEY: Gary Hainley, U.S. Boiler. 22 

## To the comment about standards above 82The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## percent, we're concerned -- and again, I think Frank 2 

## commented that we feel that at 85 percent nearly all 3 

## of the product will need to go to an inducted draft 4 

## product, likely sidewall, because the chimneys just 5 

## won't work in a large extent of the installations at 6 

## 85 percent because of reduced flue gas temperatures 7 

## and reduced buoyancy, that you'd need some mechanical 8 

## means. 9 

## Our concern with that, and we're working 10 

## with customers now to try to understand the 11 

## restrictions that they have in sidewall venting in 12 

## high density urban areas. Historic areas don't allow 13 

## sidewall venting in some situations. There's some 14 

## situations in metro New York, Philadelphia where 15 

## sidewall venting is not practical and not cost 16 

## effective. So, we're working with customers to 17 

## provide more comment on that and more specifics; but 18 

## we are aware of situations where a standard level at 19 

## 85 percent will essentially drive some customers to 20 

## just repair existing product. They're not going to 21 

## be able to afford to do the significant retrofits to 22 

## get to that level.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. Additional 2 

## thoughts, comments here? Yes, Roger. 3 

## MR. MARRAN: Roger Marran, Energy 4 

## Kinetics. 5 

## To add on to Gary's point, I think, one of 6 

## the things that we've had is on Slide 29 we noted max 7 

## tech for a different type of technology and modality. 8 

## And there's certainly a max tech for natural and 9 

## atmospheric draft as well as condensing technology 10 

## and I think it's important to recognize that how the 11 

## max tech impacts the market from the standpoint of 12 

## what products can be produced and serve that market 13 

## as we look forward. 14 

## So, if there's certain adjustments to AUE 15 

## where you can squeeze that market it may have a 16 

## dramatic impact towards what can be served and how 17 

## you can work with those particular products. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Yes, 19 

## please, Paul. 20 

## MR. SOHLER: Paul Sohler. 21 

## Can you maybe elaborate a little bit on 22 

## the -- you know one of the issues that goes intoThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## screening analysis is impact on health and safety. 2 

## I'm wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on 3 

## exactly how you go about applying that standard. 4 

## MS. RIVEST: So, if the technology is 5 

## shown to have any impacts on health and safety, then 6 

## that's something that's considered. Although if it's 7 

## something that might have an impact on health and 8 

## safety, but if it just needs a safety measure in 9 

## order to prevent the impact ^^^^ from having an 10 

## impact, then it would not be screened out. 11 

## MR. SOHLER: Is there some consideration 12 

## on the probability that you know a given technology 13 

## -- you know if it's a technology that will, in a 14 

## perfect world, be safe, but let's say in practice it 15 

## increases the odds of a safety issue; is that looked 16 

## at? 17 

## MR. DARLINGTON: Let me answer this one. 18 

## More pointed, it sounds like you're asking whether or 19 

## not the installers, for example, will be able to 20 

## install a condensing technology correctly? 21 

## MR. SOHLER: Not whether they'll be able 22 

## to, but is it really going to happen in a reasonableThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## percentage of cases? 2 

## MR. DARLINGTON: Right. And I think we 3 

## have someone from ACCA here. Maybe they want to 4 

## comment on the installer issue, but the condensing 5 

## technology has been around for a while. It's 6 

## installed safely, as far as I know most -- all the 7 

## time, but maybe the ACCA person can comment as to how 8 

## the installers go about making sure they install the 9 

## product safely. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Christine, you want to 11 

## comment? 12 

## MS. HAZELBAKER: Not at this time. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Not at this time. Paul, 14 

## keep going. 15 

## MR. SOHLER: Yes, I guess, my concern is 16 

## basically just you know this issue that I think 17 

## several people have alluded to about putting 85 18 

## percent AFUE boilers into you know chimneys -- you 19 

## know atmospheric boilers it's not that that may not 20 

## be technically possible to do. The reality is that 21 

## in a lot of cases when you look at the skill set of 22 

## the people who are installing this type of equipmentThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## you know inability to size equipment properly you 2 

## know and just you know the condition of a lot of 3 

## chimneys that if that level is kind of driven it's -- 4 

## you're basically reducing the margin of safety that 5 

## you have you know by moving the level up to that 6 

## point for things like chimneys that are a little 7 

## undersized, maybe the liner is not in real good 8 

## shape, maybe it does need to be relined and there's a 9 

## water heater there and now the liner is smaller and 10 

## you know like I said it's -- 11 

## MR. DARLINGTON: So, we account for all 12 

## those costs, and you'll see that later, that we do 13 

## assume that when this replacement happens that all of 14 

## those things have to happen to install that 15 

## technology, so yes. 16 

## MR. STUNDER: So, I guess what he's 17 

## getting at ^^^^ Greg Stunder from PSW is there can be 18 

## certain situations where -- and how does it factor 19 

## into your analysis where it wouldn't be properly 20 

## installed and that could impact on safety. Did I 21 

## state it correctly? 22 

## MR. STOHLER: That's exactly what I'mThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## trying to drive at, yes. 2 

## MR. DARLINGTON: I mean we assume that the 3 

## installers know how to install the equipment. 4 

## MR. STOHLER: And I guess I would go on 5 

## the record and say I don't think that assumption is 6 

## valid, put bluntly, in a lot of cases, not all. 7 

## MR. STAS: Eric Stas. 8 

## Are you aware of any data to document the 9 

## problem you think might be out there because that 10 

## would be helpful for the record if you do. 11 

## MR. STOHLER: I think that you know 12 

## there's plenty of incidents that involve chimneys 13 

## that are you know not -- that had problems that 14 

## resulted in flue products spilling into buildings. I 15 

## mean as far as getting -- I might direct you to CPSC 16 

## possibly may have some data. We might be able to 17 

## provide some as part of our written comments. 18 

## Obviously, a lot of it's antidotal, but you know it's 19 

## definitely an issue. It's a big issue. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Christine, you want to 21 

## comment here? 22 

## MS. HAZELBAKER: Christine Hazelbaker.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## I just reached out to one of my 2 

## contractors and we'll get back with a comment, but I 3 

## just want to check with the field first. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks very much. John, 5 

## please. 6 

## MR. RODER: John Roder, Burnham Holdings. 7 

## The issue of carbon monoxide is always 8 

## front and center for us. And you have a situation 9 

## where you're creating -- where you're asking a 10 

## contractor to install a boiler that's 85 percent 11 

## efficient into a chimney that's inadequate. You are 12 

## creating a risk there. 13 

## In an ideal world, they'd say, yes, we've 14 

## got to line this. Yes, it has to be so big; but the 15 

## reality is in the urban markets where these are sold 16 

## there's not rigorous inspection programs by most 17 

## municipalities. They're installed and then it's left 18 

## to the manufacturer to try to deal with the problem 19 

## that the installer created who may or may not be 20 

## around after it's been installed. 21 

## So, I think to Paul's point it's extremely 22 

## troubling for us to think about, oh, this is going toThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## assume that the contractor base will all be qualified 2 

## and recognize these issues that we find out sometimes 3 

## in very serious situations. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Frank Stanonik. 5 

## MR. STANONIK: As far as Issue 2 there, 6 

## our position is -- okay, we certainly support DOE's 7 

## decision to not go to a condensing level, but we have 8 

## very serious concerns about going to 85, which is 9 

## kind of we would say mex tech, not max tech, not in 10 

## condensing. 11 

## I think you're hearing some of those 12 

## concerns, but I think -- I just want to point out 13 

## something that I will say underscores the difference 14 

## and why we have a heightened level of concern about 15 

## difficulty of installing these products so that 16 

## you'll have a properly operating venting system and a 17 

## safely operating boiler. 18 

## And this is from the 2009 EIA housing 19 

## characteristics, okay. And so this is simply by 20 

## their estimate number of homes -- and I'm just going 21 

## to use natural gas -- that uses either a natural gas 22 

## furnace or a boiler, okay. "Prior to 1950, 50The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## percent of all homes -- 2009 data, okay -- but 50 2 

## percent of all homes that had a boiler were built 3 

## before 1950. Only 12 percent of homes that had a 4 

## furnace were built between 1950." Okay. 5 

## Now, take it one step further, "Only about 6 

## 5 percent of the homes that have furnaces have two or 7 

## more housing units. Almost 50 percent of the homes 8 

## that have a gas boiler have two or more housing 9 

## units." Okay. So, what are we talking about? We're 10 

## talking about older homes ^^^^ and again, you look 11 

## where boilers are installed. We're talking about 12 

## older homes probably in major urban areas that were 13 

## -- you know my best example is one I always think 14 

## about, and you have them in D.C. and in Baltimore, 15 

## row houses you know, or they might be multi-families, 16 

## but basically there is not -- certainly not four 17 

## walls that you might have access to vent the product. 18 

## You have the roof, yes, but some of these 19 

## if you start talking about trying to vent them 20 

## through the roof with an 85 percent product or an 86 21 

## oil, you're asking for trouble and we know that. And 22 

## so I think that's why we're going -- we are moreThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## concerned about an 85 percent level, which is 2 

## non-condensing, which nominally is atmospheric 3 

## vented, but to install base of where these boilers 4 

## are, and this is replacement business. Where they 5 

## are in the venting systems they're using now, okay, 6 

## because we're talking about half the homes were built 7 

## before 1950 8 

## You know the manufacturers that's their 9 

## market and they have to deal with that. And so this 10 

## level at 85 is, for us, just too far as a minimum. 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 12 

## So, I'm just looking at Slide 17. So, 13 

## this is the gas-fired hot water market disposition 14 

## from the AHRI directory. So, I'm just looking at the 15 

## disposition of the model. So, we have at the 85 AFUE 16 

## level you have -- it looks like 80 models. Now, I 17 

## know we keep talking about 85. Is what you described 18 

## the problem at 84 as well, or no? 19 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 20 

## Well, the magnitude certainly goes 21 

## downward. You know whether it becomes more of a 22 

## manageable issue or not that's something we're stillThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## looking at. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So we have, just looking 3 

## at this chart, we have about 180 models at 82 and 83 4 

## and we have 140 models at 84 or 85 -- well, actually 5 

## if you add 86, go about 150. So, to me the market 6 

## looks a 60/40 split below 84 and 84 and above. That 7 

## seems to tell me that lots of people are installing 8 

## 84 and above. 9 

## So, the question then back to you guys is 10 

## if that's, in fact, true then if there was a problem 11 

## installing these I would assume it would make 12 

## national headlines. I hadn't seen it, but please 13 

## provide the data if it has. 14 

## And then secondly, it seems to me that if, 15 

## in fact, Frank's statistics bear out that all these 16 

## things go into older homes, then 40 percent of them 17 

## are doing it already. So, I guess the models don't 18 

## bear out the logic that you've -- and I'm not 19 

## disagreeing. The statistics are what they are, so I 20 

## agree wit them, but the market data tells me that 21 

## this is happening at a fairly high rate already. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Paul, go ahead.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. SOHLER: Paul Sohler. 2 

## You know as far as the 85 percent units 3 

## that are shown here, looking in the AHRI directory at 4 

## those that are atmospheric there are three cast iron 5 

## basic model groups. One of them has venting 6 

## requirements that go above and beyond what's in the 7 

## National Fuel Gas Code. The other two go up to about 8 

## 120,000 BTUs per hour at the top end. That was as 9 

## far as cast iron. 10 

## So, you know you're looking at, yes, those 11 

## models are out there. It doesn't mean that they're 12 

## widely used. You know basically they exit. And I 13 

## don't have that data for the 84 percent at my finger 14 

## tips. I think you will find something similar if you 15 

## look at that. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, John. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Just a follow on, so my 18 

## other thought is -- again, these are thoughts for 19 

## everyone to chew on here. So, if, in fact, you are 20 

## in an older home and in a home that appears to be in 21 

## some disrepair, it appears to me that the installer 22 

## would actually be more -- and the homeowner would beThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## more cognizant of potential venting issues like 2 

## chimneys that don't work so well or what not. To me 3 

## the problems -- the oops come in where you look at 4 

## something and you say this looks great, so you kind 5 

## of ignore it. 6 

## When you go to a home that's built before 7 

## 1950, nothing's been done to it, it seems to me that 8 

## any mildly intelligent person would come in and say 9 

## we got to look at these other things because this is 10 

## an old home. There's bricks missing from the chimney 11 

## you know further down the line. So, to me, I would 12 

## take all those points into consideration before we 13 

## say that a qualified installer is just going to 14 

## ignore obvious problems with potential installation 15 

## issue. So, that's where I'll end it. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So, we have a comment from 17 

## an individual who's joining us on line. Michael 18 

## McDonald from PB Heating says if the chimneys must be 19 

## relined would this also make the replacement of a 20 

## water heater in that same chimney necessary? This is 21 

## especially burdensome for an urban customer. 22 

## MR. DARLINGTON: We're going to get toThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## that. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so we'll be 3 

## responding to that. So, we left off, I believe, on 4 

## Slide Number 39. Yes, please, Gary. 5 

## MR. HAINLEY: Before we move on, I wanted 6 

## to comment. Gary Hainley with U.S. Boiler. 7 

## Frank had commented earlier that when we 8 

## look at the statistics of distribution of models 9 

## available that doesn't represent models sold. And 10 

## models sold is really what impacts our history in the 11 

## field and the experience, so U.S. Boilers sells 12 

## products at each of these atmospheric levels, 82, 83, 13 

## 84, 85; but the models sold at 85 is significantly 14 

## lower than those sold at 82, 83. We also sell 15 

## fan-inducted products at the 85 percent level, and I 16 

## think that's where we see most of the model numbers 17 

## in this at this level. 18 

## So, the field experience isn't with a 19 

## chimney-vented product. A lot of it would be with an 20 

## induced-draft product, so again, I think Frank will 21 

## try to work with the manufacturers to -- or AHRI will 22 

## work manufacturers to try to get some of that dataThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## that doesn't specifically provide manufacturer sales 2 

## numbers. 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 4 

## Thank you for that. So, my request was 5 

## going to be a data request that the -- you know 6 

## that's the Holy Grail of analysis, right, the 7 

## shipment data by efficiency level. And obviously, we 8 

## don't want to publish manufacturer-specific data, so 9 

## anything you can provide through the NDAs that you 10 

## may have set up with the consultants we would love 11 

## that data. We would aggregate it to the 12 

## industry-wide numbers and would certainly help us in 13 

## our analysis and get to the points that we've been 14 

## just debating here today. So, thank you so much for 15 

## actually saying that for the record that you would 16 

## try to provide that. That's awesome. 17 

## MR. HAINLEY: And to your comment or your 18 

## question about do we have the same concerns at 84 19 

## percent as we do 85, I think the answer is, yes, that 20 

## flue gas temperatures are very low for both of those 21 

## compared to an 82 percent product. So, I think it 22 

## really takes away the utility of existing chimneys.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## And I think to think to the comments of you know what 2 

## do installers do I think we need to get more data on 3 

## that before we can comment further on what would the 4 

## average installer do if they saw a chimney with 5 

## pieces missing. I think the answer is most of them 6 

## are going to fix it. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. We're 8 

## going to keep pressing ahead here, okay? Catherine. 9 

## MS. RIVEST: Thank you very much for all 10 

## of your comments. 11 

## (Slide.) 12 

## MS. RIVEST: So, this rulemaking also 13 

## considered a standby and off mode standards. So, DOE 14 

## considered a single standby and off mode standards 15 

## for each product class as it was found that most 16 

## boilers do not come equipped with an off mode switch 17 

## and in cases where off mode switches are present 18 

## they're often not used as off switches, and so DOE 19 

## used the design option approach due to the fact that 20 

## there are currently no federal standards for standby 21 

## and off mode for boilers and the measurements are not 22 

## currently published by manufacturers. And the designThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## options that had been selected in this engineering 2 

## analysis were identical for each product class; 3 

## however, the efficiency levels differed by product 4 

## class due to differences in the baseline levels. 5 

## So, DOE established baseline levels based 6 

## on product test data, along with manufacturer 7 

## feedback. So, as I mentioned there's currently no 8 

## ratings for standby and off mode, so DOE created a 9 

## baseline product to be the most consumptive product 10 

## on the marketplace. And DOE did this by adding 11 

## together the most consumptive components for each 12 

## product class. And you can see some of the key 13 

## drivers are the transformers as well as the controls 14 

## caused a lot of the standby and off mode. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 16 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 17 

## Electric Institute. 18 

## I see that these are all I'll say the 19 

## worse case scenarios for all of these different types 20 

## of standby. And I was wondering what was the low end 21 

## of the range if they were using, for example, a 22 

## display that had the most efficient LED lights outThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## there, for example, or they had the -- I'll say the 2 

## mid-range transformer? I'm just kind of wondering 3 

## what is the range? These are the worse case, but how 4 

## low did it go in some of the actual installations out 5 

## there. 6 

## MS. RIVEST: I'll have to get back to you 7 

## on that, but generally, the best case units were ones 8 

## with almost no electronic controls. 9 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 10 

## So, there were some things where the 11 

## standbys were as low as I'll say 1 or 2 watts, right? 12 

## MS. RIVEST: That's correct. 13 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, Steve Rosenstock, 14 

## EEI. 15 

## I have some issues with this. Just again, 16 

## just because I believe -- and this is going further 17 

## on in the analysis is like it seems like it's a worse 18 

## case analysis where what is the range of actual 19 

## wattage in the standby is -- it's anywhere from 1 to 20 

## 2 to 11 and the median or the average value is 21 

## actually closer to I'll say 7 or 8 watts. I don't 22 

## know what the actual number is. And then you have --The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## eventually, you're doing all this analysis where you 2 

## know if they put in these more expensive controls 3 

## you're actually using more watts than the baseline 4 

## was using. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 6 

## So, what you're confusing here is what 7 

## this chart is trying to represent, which is the 8 

## baseline. Worse case scenario, as you put it, or 9 

## most consumptive, as we put it. What the analysis 10 

## does is then goes and sees what is the market share 11 

## in there, and so this is trying to tell you what the 12 

## worse case scenario is, the most consumptive case. 13 

## And so it is "the baseline." And if you'd look to 14 

## the next slide, if we could just advance you could 15 

## see some of the best case scenarios, which is what we 16 

## evaluated. 17 

## The disposition in the market today will 18 

## come later and Victor will describe that, but just 19 

## like every other rulemaking the market share is 20 

## different than what is the most consumptive. Here 21 

## we're just showing the most consumptive. 22 

## (Slide.)The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MS. RIVEST: So, then starting from the 2 

## baseline, DOE identified technology options that 3 

## would produce the standby and off mode and 4 

## implemented them in order of cost effectiveness. Are 5 

## there any requests for comments on the standby and 6 

## off mode? No? 7 

## MR. STANONIK: Quick question. Frank 8 

## Stanonik, AHRI. 9 

## Okay, so on your standby -- the power 10 

## reduction in the column on the preceding slide the 11 

## reduction you're showing is that -- that wasn't clear 12 

## to me. Is it cumulative or is it per the measure? 13 

## In other words, so the first -- you know level one 14 

## reduces it by 1.5. So, is level two is the total 15 

## reduction, the 1.8? 16 

## MS. RIVEST: Yes, the total reduction is 17 

## 1.8. 18 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay, so assuming all 19 

## things are correct here, so for one dollar you would 20 

## save 1.5 watts and for basically another 950 you're 21 

## going to save me .3 watts? Okay. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 2 

## And again, I don't know if it said in the 3 

## technical support document -- if I did, please 4 

## forgive me. What was the range of savings for these 5 

## technologies? Is this the best case or worse case 6 

## savings for this technology, or is this an average or 7 

## median? 8 

## MS. RIVEST: These are the estimated -- 9 

## what it was estimated to be. 10 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Estimated based on? 11 

## MS. RIVEST: Based on virtual tear downs. 12 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: So, did you have watt 13 

## meters when you put the technology in that you were 14 

## always saving 1 watts or did it vary by a certain 15 

## amount? 16 

## MS. RIVEST: So, it was done really more 17 

## as an exercise of what would happen if we were to 18 

## switch out these components, so we didn't actually 19 

## you know change out the power supply from one unit to 20 

## another. 21 

## MR. DARLINGTON: So, some of the estimates 22 

## for the reduction are based on discussions that weThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## had with the manufacturers and some of them are based 2 

## on technical literature, papers that we found where 3 

## they've actually looked at these design options and 4 

## looked at what the difference is. And actually, I 5 

## think some of them may have been observed differences 6 

## in testing, in which case it would probably be the 7 

## average. 8 

## So, for instance, you know we've seen 9 

## units that use the switching mode power supply, but 10 

## things like the low loss transformer that's going to 11 

## be more based on literature. And if you go to the 12 

## TSD, it cites the different papers that were used to 13 

## determine those. 14 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 15 

## Again, I was trying to read through the 16 

## technical support document, but it's still a matter 17 

## of does this represent, again, because I think it's 18 

## important. Does this represent an average savings 19 

## with all the technologies out there, or would this 20 

## represent the best case savings? 21 

## MR. DARLINGTON: No, it's more of a 22 

## typical saving. So, if you put this in --The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: So, you think it's the 2 

## average. 3 

## MR. DARLINGTON: I wouldn't say it's 4 

## definitely an average, but I would say it's supposed 5 

## to be typical. 6 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Typical. 7 

## MR. DARLINGTON: If you put the best low 8 

## loss transformer that you can find on the market in 9 

## this is it you know it's more what was the one that 10 

## was looked at in this paper. 11 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: One model? 12 

## MR. DARLINGTON: Yes. Well, I'd have to 13 

## go look at what they did in the paper. 14 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, Steve Rosenstock, 15 

## EEI. 16 

## It all kind of pulls together because, 17 

## again, depending on the range you know if the actual 18 

## low end of the range by doing -- you know level one 19 

## is you know .5 watts versus 1.5 watts then you have 20 

## to scramble to get those extra watts from somewhere 21 

## else. Now, it's probably available, but again, it's 22 

## still a matter of -- you know you're talking aboutThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## very you know kind of minimal savings here. 2 

## And so that's why -- you know if there's a 3 

## significant range that could make a difference in 4 

## terms of the actual design options that the 5 

## manufacturers have. Just again, if it's somewhere in 6 

## and buried in the support document or paper that's 7 

## great, but again, I'm just trying to determine -- you 8 

## know to make sure that there's multiple options here, 9 

## that this wasn't just the best case or that there was 10 

## some sort of a testing that kind of backs this up. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have additional 12 

## comments on this table talking about standby mode and 13 

## off mode? Comments here? 14 

## (No response.) 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 16 

## MS. RIVEST: So with that, I'll pass it 17 

## along. 18 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you, Catherine. Good 19 

## morning. My name is Victor Franco from Lawrence 20 

## Berkeley National Lab. 21 

## Next we will be talking a look at markup 22 

## analysis and energy use characterization.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## (Slide.) 2 

## MR. FRANCO: Markups are used to determine 3 

## consumer prices from manufacturers' selling price for 4 

## both baseline and higher efficiency products. The 5 

## appropriate markups for determining consumer product 6 

## prices depend on type of distribution channels 7 

## through which the product moves from manufacturers to 8 

## purchasers. 9 

## At each point of distribution channel, 10 

## companies mark up the price of the equipment to cover 11 

## their business costs and profit margin. There is one 12 

## primary type of distribution channel describing the 13 

## way most equipment passes from the manufacturer to 14 

## the consumer, as shown on these two charts, the 15 

## manufacturer going to wholesaler, wholesaler to 16 

## mechanical contractor, and to consumer. 17 

## DOE also distinguishes between new 18 

## construction and replacement application. Now, the 19 

## replacement applications also include new owners for 20 

## hot water gas boilers. The new construction 21 

## applications are expected to include the general 22 

## contractor, as shown in these graphs. The channelsThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## are shown again in these flow charts. 2 

## Also, for residential boilers in 3 

## commercial applications represent about 7 percent of 4 

## residential boiler shipments. DOE considers an 5 

## additional distribution channel for which the 6 

## manufacturer sells the product to a national account 7 

## under both replacement and new construction markets. 8 

## Further details are included in chapter six. 9 

## Based on information provided by 10 

## manufacturer interviews, there's another possible 11 

## distribution channel, which includes retail store 12 

## instead of wholesaler. In this case, the 13 

## manufacturer sells the equipment to a retailer who, 14 

## in turn, sells to a mechanical contractor who, in 15 

## turn, sells it to a consumer. However, DOE does not 16 

## have enough information at this point to make a 17 

## separate markup estimate for this distribution 18 

## channel. DOE would assume that retail markup is 19 

## similar to the wholesale markup. 20 

## DOE is also aware that there may be two 21 

## additional distribution channels for residential 22 

## boilers. One is the online distributions where theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## manufacturer sells the product to online retailers 2 

## who, in turn, sell them directly to consumers. And 3 

## rebranding distribution channel where the wholesaler 4 

## or retailers negotiate good pricing from the boiler 5 

## manufacturer based on high volumes and have the 6 

## product customized to carry their name and then send 7 

## it through the normal distribution channel to 8 

## contractors. DOE did not use both of these based on 9 

## limited data, and assuming that the market share for 10 

## both of these is not very significant. 11 

## (Slide.) 12 

## MR. FRANCO: The method used to calculate 13 

## the markups is based on analyzing the company's 14 

## direct cost expenses and profits, using the data 15 

## provided as shown in this table below. For the 16 

## wholesaler markup, DOE uses the Hardy 2012 Profit 17 

## Report. For the mechanical contractor markup, DOE 18 

## uses both ACCA 2005 Financial Analysis Report data 19 

## and 2007 Economic Census data. For the general 20 

## contractor, DOE uses U.S. Census, 2007 Economic 21 

## Census data. Sales tax data is available from 2013 22 

## Sales Tax Clearinghouse data.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## Using this data, regional distributor and 2 

## contractor markups as well as sale taxes were 3 

## calculated for both residential boiler prices in both 4 

## residential and commercial applications to match the 5 

## regions in the building sample, which we'll be 6 

## talking later in later slides. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 8 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 9 

## Just a quick question, there was no more 10 

## recent data for the markups from 2005 or 2007? 11 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question. 12 

## Victor Franco. 13 

## The latest data is 2005 from ACCA. The 14 

## Economic Census just came out with 2012 and we plan 15 

## to use that more recent data. We believe ACCA 16 

## produces every 10 years, 2015 would be the next one. 17 

## We're expecting that at some point that might be 18 

## updated. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: This is John from DOE. 20 

## Steve, do you have a reason to believe 21 

## markups -- 22 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steven Rosenstock, EEI.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## No, I was just kind of curious about the 2 

## age of the data, that's all. 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you. 4 

## (Slide.) 5 

## MR. FRANCO: So, going on to the next 6 

## slide, the baseline markups relate manufacturers' 7 

## selling price to the consumer purchase price. To 8 

## accomplish this, DOE applied the baseline markups to 9 

## the manufacturers' selling price of the baseline 10 

## equipment. The incremental markups relate to 11 

## increase in the manufacturers' selling price of more 12 

## efficient products to the increase in consumer 13 

## purchase prices. 14 

## These markups only cover the expenses that 15 

## vary with the manufacturers' selling price. Fixed 16 

## costs such as overhead and labor do not scale with 17 

## increased efficiency. The incremental markups were 18 

## applied to incremental difference and MMP at each 19 

## level above the baseline. 20 

## Based on the shipment analysis for 2012, 21 

## the table below shows the fractions of replacement 22 

## and new construction fractions. As you can see, theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## gas-fired boilers represent 90 percent of 2 

## replacements and 10 percent new construction. Just 3 

## to note, replacements in this case also include new 4 

## owners, and we'll go over that in a little more 5 

## detail. 6 

## In terms of new owners, 20 percent of that 7 

## 90 is new owners, so 18 percent, oil-fired accounts 8 

## for 2 percent of new construction. For electric hot 9 

## water, 23 percent are new construction. And for all 10 

## steam boilers, we assumed zero percent new 11 

## construction. 12 

## (Slide.) 13 

## MR. FRANCO: This next slide provides the 14 

## overall results for the markups. The first table 15 

## presents the results for the market participants in 16 

## the residential applications. The manufacturer 17 

## markup is 1.41 and then the wholesaler, mechanical 18 

## contractor, general contractor for the new 19 

## construction is show as well in the sales tax. Based 20 

## on these numbers, we come up with the overall markup. 21 

## Again, this is an average. In the analysis, we 22 

## applied this by region.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## The average markups by product class 2 

## accounting for replacement, new construction, 3 

## commercial applications and the regional difference 4 

## in markups are shown below by product class. For 5 

## example, for gas-fired hot water boilers, the 6 

## baseline average markup is 3.27 and the incremental 7 

## average markup is 2.107. DOE requests comments on 8 

## its markups analysis. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 10 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 11 

## We're just -- well, not just, but we're 12 

## kind of digging into this one a little bit for the 13 

## furnace rulemaking. And I'm going to hedge a little 14 

## bit here because we're still gathering the 15 

## information and trying to make sure we properly 16 

## analyze it, but starting to get a hint that this idea 17 

## that as you have incremental improvement in the 18 

## product or whatever that the markup changes. 19 

## We're getting feedback from -- we're 20 

## surveying -- trying to survey contractors and we're 21 

## getting feedback that that's not the case, that their 22 

## markup is their markup and they don't really careThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## whether it's a baseline or a deluxe or whatever. We 2 

## hope to do a similar attempt at a survey with people 3 

## who install boilers and try and get that done in time 4 

## for whenever the comment period closes. 5 

## But again, in the past, I think we've kind 6 

## of just not dug into this one too much, but now that 7 

## we do have a kind of -- at least getting some hints 8 

## of answers that say there's, at least some segment of 9 

## the contractors, this isn't the case. I'll try and 10 

## give you better data. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Frank, that's 12 

## helpful. Appreciate that. Additional comments here 13 

## on markups because we're about to take a break. 14 

## Final comments on markups? 15 

## (No response.) 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's take a break. We've 17 

## covered a lot of ground already. It's 10:35 18 

## approximately. We're going to break for 15 minutes, 19 

## which means we'll resume at 10:50 here in this room. 20 

## (Whereupon, a short recess was taken at 21 

## 10:35 a.m.) 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We are going to pick upThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## where we left off. Thanks for your comments so far, 2 

## good comments, and we're going to keep on with that. 3 

## Victor Franco's going to continue. 4 

## MR. FRANCO: This is Victor Franco again. 5 

## We're going to continue on to the energy 6 

## use characterization. 7 

## (Slide.) 8 

## MR. FRANCO: We're going to continue on to 9 

## the energy use characterization. The purpose of the 10 

## analysis is to determine the annual energy 11 

## consumption at every efficiency level to find the 12 

## annual energy costs and savings. 13 

## DOE considered three components to the 14 

## energy use analysis. It considered the space heating 15 

## fuel, the water heating fuel, and the electricity use 16 

## associated with the water heating and space heating. 17 

## DOE did not consider other applications such as snow 18 

## melting or other applications where boilers are used. 19 

## In terms of each individual component, 20 

## we'll go into more detail, but basically space 21 

## heating is calculated by using the burning operating 22 

## hours and multiplying it times the input capacity.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## And we determined the AFUE of the -- used by 2 

## determining the AFUE efficiency level. We used RECS 3 

## 2009 and CBECS 2003 to determine the heating energy 4 

## used, and we used some other adjustment factors we'll 5 

## be describing in further detail. 6 

## For water heater, we used the AFUE at each 7 

## efficiency level. We used RECS 2009 and CBECS 2003 8 

## data for the water heating energy use and we applied 9 

## some adjustment factors. 10 

## The electricity is determined using the 11 

## burner operating hours to determine for space heating 12 

## and water heating and multiplying those time the 13 

## power ratings of the electrical components. Standby 14 

## and off mode is also considered. The electricity use 15 

## was calculated using the standby and off mode 16 

## operating hours as well as the power ratings for each 17 

## technology option. It is important to note that for 18 

## this analysis we're considering single-stage controls 19 

## for all non-condensing boilers and condensing hot 20 

## water oil boilers. For all condensing hot water 21 

## boilers, we assume modulating controls. Obviously, 22 

## there are models out there with two-stage modulatingThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## controls for non-condensing and there's some 2 

## condensing with single-stage controls. 3 

## (Slide.) 4 

## MR. FRANCO: Since we discussed that CVAC 5 

## and RECS data is very important for the development 6 

## of the energy use characterization, here a slide 7 

## describing the determination of the building sample. 8 

## So, we start up with the whole RECS 2009 9 

## sample and CBECS 2003 sample to determine what 10 

## buildings have a residential boiler. The 11 

## considerations are listed here. 12 

## First, the boiler is the main or secondary 13 

## source of heat. The boiler uses heating fuel that is 14 

## natural gas, LPG, electricity or fuel oil. The 15 

## heating energy consumption is greater than zero and 16 

## the heated square footage is less than 10,000. 17 

## Next, we disaggregate to come up with a 18 

## byproduct class, first, by fuel, gas, oil, and 19 

## electricity. RECS and CBECS do not distinguish 20 

## between hot water and steam applications, so DOE used 21 

## all the sampled households for the gas-fired hot 22 

## water, oil-fired hot water, and electric hot waterThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## sample and assumed that the gas-fired steam sample 2 

## were building built before 1970. Before 1970, steam 3 

## was more prevalent, so we assumed that buildings 4 

## before 1970 might include steam, so that's where the 5 

## sample comes from. 6 

## Some of the samples statistics are 7 

## provided in this table. It's important to note these 8 

## are the weights of the number of buildings from RECS. 9 

## DOE adjusted these weights based on shipments data 10 

## provided by AHRI from 2008 to 2012. 11 

## Next, let's go into more detail about the 12 

## energy used in the space heating. Again, the annual 13 

## fuel use is a multiplication of the burning operating 14 

## hours and the boiler input capacity. For this 15 

## analysis, we calculated the fuel use using the 16 

## currently proposed federal test procedure for 17 

## boilers, which is in the NOPR stage. A public 18 

## meeting was a month ago. 19 

## The boiler input capacity is derived using 20 

## a sizing criteria methodology. We assume that the 21 

## same size input capacity is the same for all 22 

## efficiency levels. So, if a household is designed atThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## 200 KBTU per hour boiler at 82 percent for hot water 2 

## gas boilers, at 90 percent AFUE the input capacity is 3 

## the same, 200 KBTU even though the output would be 4 

## different. 5 

## We used the following household 6 

## characteristics to come up with the sizing. We used 7 

## the square footage of the building provided in CBECS 8 

## and RECS data, the vintage, the foundation type, 9 

## shell characteristics, and number of floors. In 10 

## addition to this, we matched each household to an 11 

## outside design temperature and we matched each 12 

## household to an existing AFUE based on the age of the 13 

## boiler and historical shipment data by efficiency. 14 

## Lastly, we assumed an oversized factor, 15 

## that currently test procedure assumes at 1.7 oversize 16 

## factor and that's what we used for this analysis. 17 

## The results of this is we pretty closed matched the 18 

## historical shipments data that we have by input 19 

## capacity. The comparison is available in Appendix 20 

## 7B. 21 

## (Slide.) 22 

## MR. FRANCO: Next, we come up with theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## burner operating hours. The burner operating hours 2 

## are the building heating load divided by the useful 3 

## output. We assume that the building heating load is 4 

## the heating load served by a single boiler. So, if a 5 

## household has multiple boilers, we assumed the 6 

## heating load by that one single boiler were being 7 

## analyzed. 8 

## The useful output includes the energy 9 

## delivered to supply the water, the energy to the 10 

## environment that's provided from the boiler, and the 11 

## electrical losses that also go into the space 12 

## potential. 13 

## (Slide.) 14 

## MR. FRANCO: Let's go into more detail 15 

## into the burner operating hours. So again, the 16 

## burner operating hours are the building heating load 17 

## divided by the useful output. The burner building 18 

## heating load served by a single boiler is described 19 

## by the follow equation. We use the fuel consumption 20 

## of the heat based on RECS for 2009, that's the QYR 21 

## parameter, that's the fuel consumption of the 22 

## household or building. We adjust this to account forThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## the existing boiler efficiency. 2 

## The existing boiler efficiency is further 3 

## adjusted to account for the field conditions. And 4 

## what we'll describe how the AFUE both for the 5 

## existing and take into account the installation hot 6 

## water return water temperature and other factors. In 7 

## addition, we make some further adjustments to the 8 

## building heating level. We take into account any 9 

## secondary heating equipment that's being used. RECS 10 

## do list some households that use other equipment, 11 

## such as direct heating equipment in the same 12 

## household and so we subtract that. 13 

## We take into account also the building 14 

## shell efficiency in 2020. This is based on the AEO 15 

## 2013 data. The average climate conditions come from 16 

## the 10-year average from NODA heating degree data. 17 

## To account for potential trends in heating degree 18 

## data from 2013 to 2020, we base it on AEO 2013 data. 19 

## We take into account the boiler count. 20 

## So, if there's more than one boiler in the household, 21 

## we divide that by the number of boilers and the 22 

## number of units household or housing units that areThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## served by the boiler. So, for example, in the 2 

## multiple family application if the boiler is shared 3 

## between many households, then we multiply that time 4 

## the number of units that are being shared by the 5 

## boiler. 6 

## Lastly, we determine the useful output. 7 

## The useful output is basically the useful electrical 8 

## heat. And this comes from the current test 9 

## procedure, depending on the installation location and 10 

## the input capacity we described earlier times the 11 

## AFUE of the new boiler. We adjust the AFUE to 12 

## account for field conditions. 13 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 14 

## Electric Institute. 15 

## Looking at Table 733 and 734 of the 16 

## technical support document, I'm seeing the range of 17 

## heating loads and boiler annual operating hours. And 18 

## I appreciate you know this very well done. It's 19 

## showing the averages and then the percentiles. And I 20 

## guess 50 percentile that would be kind of the median 21 

## value. Wouldn't that represent kind of the median 22 

## value based on the analysis?The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: That is correct, yes. 2 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: So again, I'm just being 3 

## a numbers geek here -- Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 4 

## I'm seeing a significant difference 5 

## between the median value and the average value 6 

## somewhere along the order of like 20, 25 percent for 7 

## many of the categories. So, I was just kind of 8 

## curious. I know that's going to vary by climate zone 9 

## and everything, but when I see such widely scattered 10 

## data, wouldn't it be better to start with the median 11 

## value rather than the average value when they're so 12 

## wide apart, when they're so -- when there's such a 13 

## wide range of data and there's such a big difference 14 

## between the average and the median values? 15 

## MR. FRANCO: This is Victor Franco. 16 

## So, in our analysis, we calculate 17 

## household-by-household, so we don't use average or 18 

## median. 19 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: This doesn't really fit in 21 

## the current stream, but we might as well as it now. 22 

## One of the individuals joining us on line, MarkThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## Krebs, asks there are many makes and models of 2 

## tankless water heaters with sufficient capacity to 3 

## take the place of boilers. Are tankless water 4 

## heaters considered in this Notice of Proposed 5 

## Rulemaking? 6 

## MR. FRANCO: So, we'll go into a little 7 

## bit of detail into that actually in this next slide, 8 

## but we assume tankless the terminology we got from 9 

## manufacturers and others is we define them as low 10 

## mass boilers, and so some of the tankless are low 11 

## mass boilers. And we'll discuss how we consider 12 

## those into the analysis in terms of energy use. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Yes, Frank 14 

## Stanonik. 15 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay, Vic, are we still on 16 

## Slide 52? 17 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes. 18 

## MR. STANONIK: No, back up a minute, if 19 

## you will. Let's go back to -- yes, that one. Okay. 20 

## Thank you. 21 

## Not being real familiar with the AEO data 22 

## on building shell efficiency, do you know is thatThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## looking only at single-family dwellings? 2 

## MR. FRANCO: This is Victor Franco. 3 

## The model is actually looking at 4 

## single-family, multi-family buildings. The value 5 

## that we used is an aggregated value, but it's 6 

## separated between single- and multi-family in the 7 

## actual AEO values, how it's produced. 8 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay. And Frank Stanonik, 9 

## AHRI. 10 

## I guess then I'll have to -- we'll have to 11 

## dig into it. I guess my concern is, again, I'm even 12 

## becoming more aware -- you know we have a huge 13 

## percentage of boilers that are in multi-unit 14 

## buildings and so now I have an issue -- not an issue, 15 

## but a factor that you have shared walls between units 16 

## and I would say that's not really even a shell, 17 

## right? I mean you know, again, I keep thinking of 18 

## either multi-family or the row house as well. If I'm 19 

## one of those middle row houses, my shell is very 20 

## different than the people on the end. We'll look at 21 

## that. Thanks. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John CymbalskyThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## from DOE, former EIA employee for 20 years, and 2 

## actually developed the model you're talking about, so 3 

## maybe I can add some expertise. 4 

## So, the building shell, like Victor said, 5 

## is parsed out by housing type. The attached homes 6 

## that you're referring to are in the single-family 7 

## bucket. The multi-family bucket, the high rises, my 8 

## understanding -- and Victor can correct me if I'm 9 

## wrong, but the vast majority of the big, multi-family 10 

## units are the big boilers that are not residential 11 

## boilers, so they would not be in this rulemaking. 12 

## So, I think you can just pretty much ignore that. 13 

## And if your comment is for us to just use the 14 

## single-family value, maybe that's the helpful comment 15 

## here. That might be more appropriate. 16 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 17 

## John, I'm kind of definitely more focusing 18 

## on let's say certainly not high rise. You know 19 

## maybe, again, easily visual idea is the row home, but 20 

## even maybe garden units where maybe you have only two 21 

## or three stories of units which still might lean 22 

## towards individual products as opposed to -- you knowThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## when you get into big buildings you got a big boiler. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John again from 3 

## DOE. 4 

## I don't think that's very common. I could 5 

## be wrong, but I think the majority of these, the row 6 

## houses definitely I can understand, the old row 7 

## house; but the garden style apartment type stuff 8 

## they're not going to have boilers. 9 

## MR. STANONIK: I would think post-1950. 10 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I would think so too. 11 

## MR. RODA: This is John Roda, Burnham 12 

## Holdings. 13 

## There are a number of rental units in 14 

## Lancaster, Pennsylvania. And I don't think this is 15 

## so atypical that were broken into two and three unit 16 

## apartments. At one time, they were a single-family 17 

## home. Before codes got around and started 18 

## restricting it, people converted the three or 19 

## four-bedroom, three bath house to three units and 20 

## those do use residential boilers. 21 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. Victor again. 22 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Actually, can I ask aThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## follow-up question. So, you mentioned -- Amy 2 

## Shephard from AHRI. You mentioned it used the AEO 3 

## 2013 data. Is that same data available in the AEO 4 

## 2014? 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Actually, now AEO 2015. 6 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Okay. And so why did not 7 

## use the 2014 data; is there any difference in the 8 

## data? 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm sure it's different. 10 

## The analysis here was done quite a long time ago, so 11 

## we will update it as we normally do for every 12 

## rulemaking. The analysis here -- this rule was at 13 

## OIR for quite a bit of time, as you're probably 14 

## aware. So, I'm thinking this analysis was done in 15 

## 2013. Yes, because we submitted it I think April 16 

## 2014. So, we did this analysis in the calendar year 17 

## of 2013, for the most part. 18 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Okay. So, I guess we would 19 

## be interested in whether there's any significant 20 

## changes in the data. And then I just wanted to 21 

## clarify something. The slide on 51 says that the 22 

## calculations were based on the proposed testThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## procedure, but you said the useful output was that 2 

## using the current test procedure? Did I get that 3 

## right or did I mishear? 4 

## MR. FRANCO: No, everything is accounting 5 

## for the new test procedure. 6 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Everything's under the new 7 

## test procedure? 8 

## MR. SHOLER: So, I guess my question -- 9 

## Paul Sohler. 10 

## The burner operating hours I think that is 11 

## different in the 2015 proposed procedure versus what 12 

## we're currently using; is that correct, the method by 13 

## which one calculates burner operating hours? 14 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. In the test 15 

## procedure there's kind of an appendix not related to 16 

## AFUE calculations that calculates burner operating 17 

## hours and then those are used to calculate ESAEVE, 18 

## which is electricity EF. Those do change. They're 19 

## mainly due to the calculating two -- more properly 20 

## calculating two-stage modulating equipment. We used 21 

## those calculations for this analysis. 22 

## MR. SHOLER: Okay. I guess my question isThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## is there -- well, is there a reason for using the new 2 

## -- you know this is a proposed procedure versus what 3 

## is established right now. 4 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, those, again, don't 5 

## affect the AFUE rating. Those are mainly to better 6 

## calculate the electricity and fuel use. The 7 

## corrections are to account for modulating equipment 8 

## in two-stage equipment. They don't really impact 9 

## single-stage boilers. 10 

## MR. SOHLER: Okay. Thank you. 11 

## (Slide.) 12 

## MR. FRANCO: Okay, so the next couple of 13 

## slides describe how we adjust the AFUE to account for 14 

## field conditions. So, it's important to note first 15 

## that we do the adjustments for both the AFUE of the 16 

## existing and new boiler. So, what we were trying to 17 

## take into account is what type of applications that 18 

## the boiler is in, in terms of the return water 19 

## temperature. 20 

## We also make some assumptions about the 21 

## automatic means that's being used for the boilers and 22 

## any accounting of the jacket losses associated withThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## the boilers. So, for instance, let's talk about the 2 

## return water temperature adjustments. 3 

## They're based on the high and low return 4 

## water applications. The high return water 5 

## applications are mostly to units associated with 6 

## non-condensing boilers. We assume at average 160 7 

## degrees Fahrenheit, and these applications include 8 

## corrective baseboards and panel radiators that 9 

## typically are about from 140 to 180. 10 

## The low return water temperatures are 11 

## mostly associated with condensing technology. We 12 

## assume an annual average of 110 degrees. These are 13 

## associated with in floor radiated tubing as well as 14 

## it could potentially be a little bit higher for 15 

## either roof or wall panels, and also associated with 16 

## panel radiators, which have a potential to have a low 17 

## return water temperature. 18 

## We assume it's similar to the test 19 

## procedure that the temperature difference between 20 

## supply and return water temperature is 20 degrees. 21 

## Next, we account for the automatic means 22 

## adjustments. So, we apply adjustments to allThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## equipment installed after 2012, which mandates the 2 

## use of automatic means. For single stage, we assume 3 

## that the adjustment is -2 degrees and just for the 4 

## return water temperature. For modulating equipment, 5 

## we assume that's a 10-degree difference in the low 6 

## return water temperature applications. 7 

## In terms of the jacket losses, we applied 8 

## jacket losses to boilers installed in non-condition 9 

## spaces. We'll describe in the installation model the 10 

## fractions and further detail of how we determine 11 

## non-condition basements and garages, but 35 percent 12 

## of gas-fired boiler installations are in 13 

## non-condition basements and garages and 53 percent of 14 

## oil-fired boiler installations. 15 

## So, for these we take the jacket loss 16 

## factor into account based on the current test 17 

## procedure, which is based on EISA 103, the proposed 18 

## test procedure -- sorry -- based on EISAR 103 2007. 19 

## The jacket loss factor is 2.4 percent. For low mass 20 

## boilers, we assume that this is much lower, so we 21 

## assume that it's 10 percent of this value, and that 22 

## would 0.24 percent.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## In terms of low mass and high mass, we 2 

## assume that 75 percent of condensing boilers are low 3 

## mass and 25 percent of non-condensing boilers are low 4 

## mass. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, go ahead, Roger. 6 

## MR. MARRAN: Yes, Roger Marran, with 7 

## Energy Kinetics. 8 

## I just want to point out I guess when 9 

## we're taking a look at a few things with jacket loss 10 

## adjustments and that jacket loss being in a 11 

## non-condition space or weatherized there's a 12 

## difference in how that plays out. And I know the 13 

## standard treats it in some ways, but some of the 14 

## field studies and some of the Department of Energy 15 

## lab studies treat it very differently without a loss. 16 

## And from that standpoint, I just want to 17 

## point out also that jacket loss for the mounting 18 

## place inspection and access work panels can be 19 

## omitted in the standard and for a lot of equipment 20 

## that's a huge section of loss that's not addressed 21 

## when we look at these two, and that plays more into 22 

## the idle loss characteristics too, so it's muchThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## greater opportunity for gains based upon better 2 

## installation application in those kind of areas 3 

## without the need to maybe adjust the AFUE base 4 

## structural thereto. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Yes, Frank 6 

## Stanonik. 7 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 8 

## Victor, the last thing about your 9 

## percentage assumptions on low mass and not low mass 10 

## is that for all boilers? I don't have a real good 11 

## sense of the oil boiler market, but those numbers to 12 

## me would look a little off if I were just talking 13 

## about oil boilers in terms of the low mass/high mass 14 

## issue. 15 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that comment. 16 

## Yes, for this analysis we do assume these fractions 17 

## are the same for all. Condensing boilers are a small 18 

## fraction of the market in the oil, but yes, they are 19 

## assumed to be. So, if you have any information or 20 

## input that would be really useful to us. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Paul. 22 

## MR. SOHLER: Paul Sohler.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## I'm trying to find it right now, and I'm 2 

## not able to, but my recollection was that the default 3 

## jacket loss for all indoor or all boilers was 1 4 

## percent. I don't recognize that 2.4 percent number. 5 

## Where'd that come from? 6 

## MR. FRANCO: This comes from the test 7 

## procedure. There are actually two kind of jacket 8 

## loss factors in the test procedure. One is a 1.7 9 

## percent factor and this is 2.4 percent factor. This 10 

## is to adjust for the AFUE. They're factors used 11 

## just for the output capacity. 12 

## MR. SOHLER: Okay. And this is, again, 13 

## different in the current versus new standard? 14 

## MR. FRANCO: This actually does not 15 

## change. It's actually the same between those. 16 

## MR. SOHLER: Okay. Thank you. 17 

## (Slide.) 18 

## MR. FRANCO: So, next, we'll look at a 19 

## little bit more detail the actual factors and how 20 

## they're applied. So, here on these tables we show 21 

## the actual decrease or increase of AFUE rating based 22 

## on our assumptions that we described earlier. So,The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## the first table describes boilers, single-stage 2 

## boilers, both non-condensing and condensing with high 3 

## and low return water temperatures. In addition, for 4 

## high return water temperatures we account for when 5 

## the boilers don't have automatic means and have 6 

## automatic means. 7 

## So, as you can see for non-condensing, we 8 

## decrease the AFUE rating by 1 percent. So, if the 9 

## boiler is rated at 82 percent AFUE, the actual 10 

## efficiency in the field would be 81 percent. For 11 

## condensing boilers, we decreased it by a little more 12 

## than 3 percent. So, if a condensing boiler is at 90 13 

## percent AFUE, the actual field efficiency would be a 14 

## little bit less than 87 percent AFUE. So, this is to 15 

## take into account that sometimes it won't be actually 16 

## condensing. 17 

## For low return water temperatures, since 18 

## this is below the AFUE -- I forgot to mention. The 19 

## AFUE's rating is at 120 degrees. Because it's below 20 

## the 120 degrees the adjustment is a positive 2 21 

## percent. So, if the AFUE of the boiler condensing is 22 

## at 90, the field adjusted rating would be at 92.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## Similar adjustments are done to the modulating 2 

## boilers and you can see the numbers there. 3 

## (Slide.) 4 

## MR. FRANCO: To further describe, the 5 

## graph below shows how we come up with these for 6 

## condensing equipment. So, as you can see the rating 7 

## is at 120; that would give you maybe a rating of 90 8 

## percent. If you go below that to 100, then you would 9 

## go to 93. If you go above that to 140, you go to 10 

## 97.5. That's how we determined these values. 11 

## These trends or this graph is based on 12 

## manufacture literature and models, but specifically 13 

## this graph is based on thermal efficiency. This is a 14 

## commercial product, and we assume for this case it's 15 

## similar to AFUE. 16 

## Now, the return water temperature for 17 

## condensing installations -- this is mostly applicable 18 

## to hot water gas boilers as follows. So, based on 19 

## market segments, we have new construction and new 20 

## owners. We assume that 100 percent of installations 21 

## would be at the low return water temperature. So, we 22 

## assume that the people that are going to beThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## installing in new construction and new owners will be 2 

## installing the low return water temperature, which is 3 

## the most beneficial for condensing. 4 

## In terms of replacements, in households 5 

## built after 1990, we assume that half of those would 6 

## be using a low return water temperature application. 7 

## For replacements built before 1990, we only assume 10 8 

## percent. And that 10 percent is really to account 9 

## for some situations were some of the building owners 10 

## actually did do a remodel of their building. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 12 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 13 

## Victor, I'm thrown a lot here, okay, and 14 

## I'm hoping I'm reading this wrong. So, this slide is 15 

## telling me that when you factored in the affect of 16 

## the automatic means it lowers the AFUE, that there's 17 

## no energy savings in the standard that was passed 18 

## whatever many years ago; is that what I'm 19 

## understanding? 20 

## MR. FRANCO: So, it does increase it, but 21 

## very, very slightly. It would be very interesting to 22 

## understand better how the current automatic means ofThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## non-condensing equipment, which we believe for 2 

## single-stage equipment, is this post-purge, does 3 

## actually affect the AFUE. Our understanding it does 4 

## lower the temperature very, very little, but it would 5 

## be good from manufacturers perspective to get a 6 

## better understand. 7 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 8 

## And so what about those non-condensing 9 

## products that might be multi-staged? It looks at the 10 

## moment you didn't look at that one, or didn't try to 11 

## estimate that one. 12 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. Thank you 13 

## so much for pointing it out. So, the first slide for 14 

## energy use I did point out that for all 15 

## non-condensing and condensing for hot water oil 16 

## boilers we assumed that they're all single stage. 17 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay. 18 

## MR. FRANCO: And it would be good to have 19 

## either shipments data to account for those or have 20 

## input. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Paul. 22 

## MR. SOHLER: Paul Sohler.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## This curve here you said is based on 2 

## manufacturers' data. Is it residential or 3 

## commercial, the data where that came from? 4 

## MR. FRANCO: This is commercial. There is 5 

## a similar graph in the ACCA handbook which is 6 

## supposed to be applicable for both residential and 7 

## commercial applications. We don't have how the ACCA 8 

## chart was derived, so we used this which we had the 9 

## data for. We'd appreciate it if you have actual data 10 

## for residential application. 11 

## MR. SOHLER: I think some actual data is 12 

## in order as opposed to using sales literature or 13 

## whatever published literature it is. If DOE needs to 14 

## go and generate that, so be it. 15 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. Appreciate that. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please, Gary. 17 

## MR. HAINLEY: Thank you. Gary Hainley, 18 

## U.S. Boiler. 19 

## Question on the return water temperature 20 

## fraction for condensing installations lower left 21 

## chart, I recall that it was mentioned that for 22 

## replacements where there was a new owner that thatThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## was still considered part of the replacements. So, 2 

## your assumption is that if there's a new owner to the 3 

## home that they're going to have a system with low 4 

## return water temperature? 5 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct in terms of 6 

## if they're installing a condensing boiler. Since 7 

## they have the option, at that point of installing a 8 

## non-condensing, for the non-condensing they would go 9 

## to potentially a high return water temperature 10 

## application. For the condensing, they would go to 11 

## below return water application is the current 12 

## assumption. 13 

## MR. HAINLEY: So, Gary Hainley, U.S. 14 

## Boiler. 15 

## I don't believe that's a reasonable 16 

## assumption because it requires that the heat 17 

## distribution system be replaced and that's a huge 18 

## cost to do that. I think if you have you know let's 19 

## just say 10,000 square feet of radiation that 20 

## requires a certain temperature to provide the heat 21 

## output. To get that to a lower temperature system, 22 

## you're going to increase the square foot of radiationThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## or in the case of radiant flooring you have to do a 2 

## whole new staple up application. 3 

## So, I think that's an incorrect 4 

## assumption. I think that the new owners, for the 5 

## most part, are going to be exactly the same as just 6 

## any other replacement. What's there is the heat 7 

## distribution system, whether it's condensing or 8 

## non-condensing. 9 

## And the other statement I would make would 10 

## be replacements built after 1990 for homes built 11 

## after 1990 I'm not convinced -- and again, I don't 12 

## have data to support that, but I don't believe that's 13 

## going to be any different than the home built in the 14 

## 1950s. I think the majority of these are going to be 15 

## some type of high temperature radiation. You know 16 

## high level homes there's always been a percentage of 17 

## those that have gone to low temperature baseboard or 18 

## in-floor radiant heat, but that's a small percentage 19 

## of the population. Thank you. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Yes, please. 21 

## MR. MARRAN: Yes, Roger Marran with Energy 22 

## Kinetics.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## Yes, I think to add to that too I think 2 

## with new construction the builders, in general, are 3 

## going to go low cost if they can, which means if 4 

## somebody can put in the minimum about of radiation 5 

## they need in order to satisfy the home the contractor 6 

## may move in that direction certainly, arguably for a 7 

## large percentage of that market. Custom homes may be 8 

## a little bit different. 9 

## So, from that standpoint, I think they 10 

## would dial up the temperature of the boiler and 11 

## minimize the radiation to reduce the overall cost. 12 

## So, it's something to look at there to support that 13 

## point too. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 15 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much for all 16 

## those comments. Just to clarify, because I went 17 

## really quickly over the new owners. The new owners 18 

## we're considering for the LCC, and we'll go to the 19 

## shipments analysis, are potentially people that 20 

## switch from other prior classes from boilers. So, 21 

## you would be correct in that case. They currently 22 

## have a distribution system. A fraction of those alsoThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## include people that do actually purchase this as new 2 

## equipment, so they might do a major remodel. They 3 

## might've had some other type of distribution or 4 

## something. 5 

## The 20 percent that we apply in this sale 6 

## for the analysis is for people that do completely 7 

## boiler, so they didn't have a boiler before. They're 8 

## actually doing a new distribution. And we'll go into 9 

## further detail in the shipments analysis, the other 10 

## fraction that actually do product switching that's 11 

## not accounted here in this LCC. 12 

## (Slide.) 13 

## MR. FRANCO: So, the next slide we look at 14 

## the distribution of heating energy use. So, this is 15 

## concluding the heating energy use discussion. Here 16 

## is the distribution based on the 10,000 households, 17 

## and below are some of the values for the four prior 18 

## classes we are considering for the AFUE standards. 19 

## The first column presents the results 20 

## based on just the raw energy use data provided from 21 

## CBECS and REIS and the median and average values. 22 

## The median is in parentheses, and the estimatedThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## energy use in 2020 is provided in the next column. 2 

## As you can see, there's a significant decrease, about 3 

## 23, 24 percent in the energy use that we're 4 

## calculating. 5 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 6 

## For the 2020 value, what was the primary 7 

## driver for that reduction? Is that building shell or 8 

## just overall -- just new shipments or what's the 9 

## primary driver? 10 

## MR. FRANCO: It's actually pretty 11 

## interesting there. Actually, all about the same, the 12 

## different adjustments, so building shells is slightly 13 

## greater. It's about 7 percent. Actually, the 14 

## adjustment from the heating degree data is from 2009 15 

## to 2013 to an average, heating degree data accounts 16 

## for another 5 percent, adjusting for trend between 17 

## 2013 and 2020 another 5 to 6 percent, and finally, 18 

## doing the adjustment -- instead of the current AFUE, 19 

## which might be below 80 AFUE to the new at least 82 20 

## percent AFUE that accounts for another 4 or 5 21 

## percent. The last bit of the change is due to this 22 

## adjustment for secondary heating equipment.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank. 2 

## MR. STANONIK: All right, Victor, the 3 

## distribution of heating energy use, the X axis I'm 4 

## reading as dollars, so either if you could help us 5 

## out by maybe telling us what you assumed is the per 6 

## unit fuel cost or maybe fix whatever needs to be 7 

## fixed; but right now I'm having trouble trying to 8 

## look at what appears -- you know the peak seems -- 9 

## the peak on this chart, if I had to guess, looks it's 10 

## maybe 40 something, whatever that unit is. And yet, 11 

## you're telling me the average is like 95 million BTU. 12 

## Something needs to be fixed, please. 13 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much for that 14 

## comment. Well, let me clarify. So, this chart shows 15 

## the second column, which is the estimated heating 16 

## energies in 2020. The average value -- and this is 17 

## just for hot water gas boilers. The axis should be 18 

## labeled a million BTUs per year, so it would be 19 

## around -- the peak would be around 50 -- 45 to 50 and 20 

## the median is listed on this table as 56. The 21 

## average would be 75, so it's -- as you can see, 22 

## there's like a --The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. STANONIK: Okay, so this is a million 2 

## BTUs. 3 

## MR. FRANCO: A million BTUs per year, yes. 4 

## And I'm sorry about that. 5 

## MR. STANONIK: (Off mike.) 6 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. 7 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 8 

## The graphics is for 2020 is what's being 9 

## shown here, right? Okay. 10 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. And this is 11 

## just for efficiency level zero, so it's 82 percent 12 

## AFUE. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I think just to clarify so 14 

## it's the first row of the table, essentially, plotted 15 

## out for the distribution in the year 2020. 16 

## MR. MARRAN: Yes, Roger Marran with Energy 17 

## Kinetics. 18 

## When I was looking at Table 7B2.8, the 19 

## heating degree, the adjustment factors in the 20 

## baseline year I think that at Hughes actually had the 21 

## highest heating degrees of all the samples of that 22 

## 10-year period was taken. It was the coldest period,The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## the coldest baseline year. The one in the RECS, 2009 2 

## regions, that was based on the NODA data. I just 3 

## wanted to bring that up because I thinking about the 4 

## 5 percent reduction going from 2009 towards the 2013 5 

## and that may have a significant impact towards that. 6 

## (Slide.) 7 

## MR. FRANCO: So, moving on to water 8 

## heating energy consumption. So, DOE took into 9 

## account the energy use by this boiler for domestic 10 

## hot water. RECS and CBECS do not report of the 11 

## boiler's use for water heating, but DOE are aware 12 

## that a lot of these boilers are used for water 13 

## heating as well, so DOE used the following 14 

## assumptions. 15 

## For buildings that are listed with the 16 

## tank water heating and using the same fuel between 17 

## the space and water heating, DOE assumed that 50 18 

## percent of the time the boiler is used for water 19 

## heating. For buildings with tankless water heating 20 

## -- and this is mainly for oil equipment -- 100 21 

## percent of the buildings are assumed to be used with 22 

## both the boiler -- the boiler for both space heatingThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## and water heating. 2 

## In terms of the actual calculations of the 3 

## annual water heating fuel consumption, DOE uses the 4 

## hot water formula that's been used before in other 5 

## rulemakings and adjusts it to be applicable to 6 

## boilers. So, in that sense, the formula has the 7 

## water heating load divide by the AFUE, which was 8 

## adjusted so that it becomes an actual kind of a water 9 

## heating efficiency. And the last part of the 10 

## equation adjusts for the standby losses associated 11 

## with using the water heating. We'll be describing 12 

## those in a little bit in further detail. 13 

## The adjustment factors for water heating 14 

## in terms of AFUE account for the differences between 15 

## the AFUE and the water heating efficiency, adjusting 16 

## for the difference between AFUE and the study state 17 

## efficiency, jacket losses in non-condition space, and 18 

## also adjustments for tankless coil. This is mostly 19 

## associated for oil equipment. 20 

## Lastly, we take into account water heating 21 

## loss. We assume a .5 kilowatt KBTU per hour for 22 

## indirect tanks and zero loss for tankless coil waterThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## heaters. 2 

## The last equation in this component is the 3 

## water heating load. We take the water heating load 4 

## from the RECS data that reports the water heating 5 

## energy use and we further adjust it based on the AFUE 6 

## of the existing boiler and make the similar 7 

## adjustments that we did before. 8 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 9 

## On that, where you say 100 percent of 10 

## buildings uses tankless water heatings, if they had 11 

## gas equipment would that same assumption apply? 12 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. In RECS 13 

## 2009, there is a very, very small fraction of 14 

## tankless. 15 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock again. 16 

## So, even though the tankless water heater 17 

## efficiency is higher than the boiler efficiency that 18 

## no one would ever use the tankless water heater; is 19 

## that what I'm hearing? 20 

## MR. FRANCO: No, let me clarify it. What 21 

## happens is that RECS reports just that there's a unit 22 

## of water heating that has either a tank or isThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## tankless and it doesn't mean that it's a tankless 2 

## water heat. It just means that there's no tank 3 

## associated with it and that its fuel. So, for 4 

## example, that's an oil or gas. 5 

## If we find that the boiler is of the same 6 

## fuel, then we make this assumption that they're 7 

## actually using the boiler for doing both, so space 8 

## heating and the water heating. 9 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, Steve Rosenstock, 10 

## EEI. 11 

## Again, I don't have that type of 12 

## equipment, but again, if someone -- so again, looking 13 

## at the RECS data, if for some reason they put in the 14 

## tankless water heater because they wanted to do that 15 

## to shutoff the boiler, you can't really account for 16 

## it because the data doesn't really break it out even 17 

## though that's what the homeowner wants to do for I'll 18 

## say efficiency reasons or they just wanted to keep 19 

## the space heating and water heating systems separate 20 

## you're not able to adjust the analysis for that. 21 

## MR. FRANCO: Just to clarify, so for gas 22 

## equipment it's a very small fraction. It's less thanThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## 1 percent, and so we didn't make any further 2 

## adjustments. For oil it's very common that you would 3 

## use kind of a tankless coil in that situation and 4 

## that's -- 5 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's really a separate 6 

## system, so understood. Yes. 7 

## MR. FRANCO: And the tankless is mostly 8 

## associated maybe with a forced furnace, for a draft 9 

## furnace situation. 10 

## (Slide.) 11 

## MR. FRANCO: So, the next slide shows the 12 

## similar distribution of water heating energy use. So 13 

## again, we have the hot water fuel energy use. The 14 

## access is correct now. It's a million BTUs per year 15 

## and it's for efficiency level zero. And you can see 16 

## the distribution here. This is for 2020 values. The 17 

## values by product class are provided in the table. 18 

## The actual fraction of boilers that use 19 

## water heating equipment is similar. It's about 40 20 

## percent for all products. And the water use is very 21 

## similar. It decrease by about 1 million BTU, but the 22 

## main difference between -- the RECS provided data andThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## the energy use that we're calculating in 2020 is 2 

## because of the efficiency of the equipment. There's 3 

## no other adjustments in this analysis. 4 

## MR. MARRAN: Yes, Roger Marran with Energy 5 

## Kinetics. 6 

## I think some of these where I look at, for 7 

## example, hot water oil boilers there's a huge market 8 

## penetration for the tankless coil type boilers that 9 

## make heat and hot water. I think that number is 10 

## going to be a lot higher than what was shown here. 11 

## I'm not sure how you can get industry data to 12 

## demonstrate what that might be, but I suspect that 13 

## number is much greater than that. And I've heard 14 

## other companies cite also the percentage that has 15 

## indirect tanks with a boiler that's much higher than 16 

## those, the 40 percent average as well. So, those 17 

## couple of things might impact this too. 18 

## The other question that I had was the 19 

## adjustment factor to AFUE to calculate the hot water 20 

## efficiency do you have a magnitude of what that 21 

## adjustment number was that was used. 22 

## MR. FRANCO: It's provided in chapter 7.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## There's actually a pretty big equation there. 2 

## There's actually three components to that equations 3 

## which is similar accounts for the jacket losses and 4 

## it depends on what the water heating, but it's around 5 

## 2 to 4 percent, depending on what type of -- low 6 

## mass/high mass. If it's an indirect tank, it's a 7 

## tankless coil. 8 

## MR. MARRAN: Yes, Roger Marran again from 9 

## Energy Kinetics. 10 

## So, my question relative to that or 11 

## statement, I guess, relative to that would be I know 12 

## -- to refer back again to the Dr. Butcher study on 13 

## the performance of integrated hydraulic heating 14 

## systems in that study he published some of the water 15 

## heating efficiency factors and those numbers varied 16 

## from around 30 percent for some tankless coils all 17 

## the way up to I think 79 percent for the 18 

## top-performing system, but there's a significant gap 19 

## between the AFUE for that study and how it was 20 

## treated. 21 

## I understand that the idle loss that's 22 

## treated in there is considered as a gain in theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## condition space for the purposes of AFUE, but in that 2 

## study it wasn't considered as a gain, so there's a 3 

## disconnect between those two, but it's certainly a 4 

## broad factor that should be applied in the 5 

## application of where the energy efficiency comes from 6 

## and for the opportunity for gains in home performance 7 

## would be. 8 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. I appreciate that 9 

## comment. And let me just clarify that when we do the 10 

## energy use for the water heating the efficiency that 11 

## was mentioning, the 2 to 4 percent is applied to the 12 

## AFUE component. There's also the standby losses. 13 

## So, if you account for standby losses that would be 14 

## different that's similar to what you're mentioning. 15 

## So, for applications it could be a 10 percent say or 16 

## greater. 17 

## MR. MARRAN: Roger Marran from Energy 18 

## Kinetics. 19 

## Now, earlier we mentioned there was a 20 

## certain percent that were in condition space and some 21 

## were weatherized, so that's taken into account? That 22 

## flows through the process to address that?The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: That's correct. 2 

## MR. MARRAN: Okay. Thank you. 3 

## MR. FRANCO: Just one clarification, also 4 

## for the oil burners, I thing one thing to be 5 

## considered, this is RECS data. There's a lot of oil 6 

## boilers that are associated with different water 7 

## heating types, so there's significant market that has 8 

## for, example, electric water heaters associated. So, 9 

## these fractions take that into account, but we really 10 

## appreciate data on that. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please, Frank. 12 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 13 

## Victor, these numbers on the average water 14 

## heating energy use seem high, and we will certainly 15 

## try and give you some much better analysis numbers on 16 

## that, okay, but I'm just going to use my own holist, 17 

## okay. And you know I'm probably one of those weird 18 

## people that look at their gas bill. So, in the 19 

## summer my gas bill when I'm basically heating water 20 

## and maybe running my grill, okay, I'm using about 15, 21 

## 16 therms a month, okay. So, the crude calculation 22 

## here, so if that's my water heating energy on anThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## annual basis I'm using like 180 therms per month, 2 

## okay. 3 

## You're showing roughly for a gas product 4 

## probably about 50 percent more than that. I'm going 5 

## by the 28, okay. And again, there may be other 6 

## factors here, but we'll try and get into that a 7 

## little further and even look at some of the other 8 

## data on average water energy use. I mean for other 9 

## reasons I did something looking just a California 10 

## because we've got an issue with the California Energy 11 

## Commission. And again, California a typical 12 

## residential hot water use ran about -- I think it was 13 

## maybe 17, 18 therms a month, so it's a little high 14 

## and we'll try and maybe better identify maybe where 15 

## it's overestimating. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks Frank. Yes, Paul. 17 

## MR. SOHLER: Yes, Paul Sohler. 18 

## I would, yes, just note, and I'm having a 19 

## little trouble and I don't want to belabor trying to 20 

## understand how you came up with the fractions as 21 

## boilers used for water heating. The one thing that 22 

## definitely jumps out to me is the steam gas boilerThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## number being you know 40 percent basically seems 2 

## very, very high. And I think we can probably provide 3 

## some data to you know better reflect what that 4 

## actually is. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks. 6 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. We really 7 

## appreciate that. That's actually one of the 8 

## questions we were going to propose to ask. And 9 

## basically, we assumed the same for all of them and we 10 

## wanted to get your feedback on that. 11 

## To come back to the water heating just 12 

## really quickly -- 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Rick, a question. Go 14 

## ahead. 15 

## MR. MURPHY: Yes, Rick Murphy, AGA. 16 

## Just curious as to how these fractions of 17 

## boilers that are used for water heating how that 18 

## comes into play in the water heating standard. Are 19 

## these numbers considered in that and are they 20 

## consistent? 21 

## MR. FRANCO: The last time the water 22 

## heating standard was 2010. We used RECS data fromThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## 2005 at that point. We didn't account for a fraction 2 

## of boilers that might be using water heating. That 3 

## would certainly be considered for the next round. 4 

## So, just to clarify, the estimate this is 5 

## just for boilers for water heating. If you looked at 6 

## all households, it runs about 18 to 20 in BTUs. It 7 

## would be interesting to see what kind of 8 

## characteristics -- this is just boilers. We 9 

## appreciate any feedback. 10 

## MR. STANONIK: Yes, Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 11 

## And Victor, I think the part we want to 12 

## look at ^^^^ I mean, again, certainly there's an 13 

## immediate difference that let's say your heat 14 

## generator is probably firing at least at twice the 15 

## rate of what your standard stand-alone water heater 16 

## would be doing, but you know there are some 17 

## differences. We need to kind of filter it out and 18 

## see, okay, but does that really explain why when you 19 

## do this you have what appears to be a higher energy 20 

## use for heating you know on the average basis the 21 

## same amount of hot water, right? We'll look into 22 

## it.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. 2 

## (Slide.) 3 

## MR. FRANCO: Moving on to electricity use, 4 

## so DOE accounted for electricity used both in the 5 

## active mode and the standby and off mode, taking into 6 

## account when the boiler is used for space heating and 7 

## water heating. DOE took into account, based on this 8 

## equation shown here, the electrical power used during 9 

## the space heating and water heating, the standby, and 10 

## also accounted for some adjustments in terms of the 11 

## AC use because some of the heat in the condition 12 

## space might be used during the non-heating season and 13 

## that would impact the AC consumption. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 15 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 16 

## Again, I could find it or I didn't bring 17 

## those pages in the technical support document. In 18 

## those situations, what kind of energy consumption are 19 

## we talking about? How much -- what's the magnitude, 20 

## what's the scale, what's the range in that case? 21 

## MR. FRANCO: These are fairly small, but 22 

## it depends on obviously the situation, but it couldThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## be a positive to a negative effect, depending on 2 

## what's your baseline, but it's about 50 to 100 -- no, 3 

## it averaged about 50 kilowatt hours. 4 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: 50 kilowatt hours a year? 5 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes. 6 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: So, you're saying typical 7 

## of a central air conditioner uses about 2500 kilowatt 8 

## hours a year, central air conditioner. So, you're 9 

## saying it would increase the cooling load by 2 10 

## percent? 11 

## MR. FRANCO: Sorry. This also accounts 12 

## for the space heating, so a little bit of adding to 13 

## the space heater, so about -- 14 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: No, I understand the 15 

## electric use AC. It's just that 1 percent, so you're 16 

## saying -- 17 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, it's about 50 kilowatt 18 

## hours. 19 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 20 

## Again, just looking at the fractions and 21 

## then you show kind of where they're installed, again 22 

## I want to talk about it when we get to theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## assumptions because especially if they're no where 2 

## near the thermostat they're not going to have any 3 

## impact whatsoever on the cooling load because ^^^^ 4 

## again, I don't know what the BTU output of that water 5 

## heater, what the BTU losses of that water heater, but 6 

## if it's only like 500 BTUs versus a cooling load of 7 

## 36,000 BTUs per hour it's not going to change that 8 

## air conditioning compressor use and indoor fan use -- 9 

## again, in my view. 10 

## I know it gets kind of where they're 11 

## located. I'm just again worried about that number 12 

## being assumed that every BTU is automatically into 13 

## the cooling load and they all affects the thermostat. 14 

## I'm a little worried about that. Thank you. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: All right, Frank. 16 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 17 

## Related question, and just understand how 18 

## you factored that particular energy use in, okay. 19 

## So, you know let's talk about boiler installation. 20 

## So, you have a certain estimate of how many boilers 21 

## are not in the condition space, so they wouldn't 22 

## affect the air conditioning.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## When we talk about homes with boilers, 2 

## there certainly is some percentage that don't have 3 

## air conditioning, so how do you factor those factors 4 

## into what number you plug in because I'm assuming 5 

## that number gets plugged in in all cases, right? It 6 

## doesn't? 7 

## MR. FRANCO: No, it's an individual case. 8 

## And obviously, it takes into account where they have 9 

## an air conditioner where the -- 10 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay, I misunderstood. 11 

## Right. Okay. 12 

## MR. FRANCO: And the 50 is just for the 13 

## houses that do have an air conditioner and have these 14 

## impacts applied, not to all households, just to the 15 

## ones that are impacted. 16 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: And Steve Rosenstock, 17 

## EEI. 18 

## Was it different impacts for houses with 19 

## room air conditioners versus central? 20 

## MR. FRANCO: That's correct. Yes. 21 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you. 22 

## (Slide.)The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: Just moving through the 2 

## equations, so the burner operating hours take into 3 

## account the space heating and water heating. The 4 

## electrical power is of the electrical components. 5 

## Some of these are according to test procedure, other 6 

## comes from manufacturer literature, and we'll talk in 7 

## more detail in the next slide. 8 

## (Slide.) 9 

## MR. FRANCO: We take into account again 10 

## the energy use of the standby and we just discussed 11 

## the cooling energy impact of this. The standby and 12 

## off mode calculation is shown here as well, and 13 

## basically it's the power of the standby and off mode 14 

## times 876 to minus the burner operating hours of the 15 

## space heating and water heating. So, let's go 16 

## through the assumptions in further detail. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Paul. 18 

## MR. SOHLER: Paul Sohler. 19 

## Question, when you say the definition of 20 

## active mode is when the boiler is being used does 21 

## that mean when the boiler is firing or is that when 22 

## the boiler is responding to a call from a thermostat?The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: The burner operating hours is 2 

## actually when the burner is on, so when it's actually 3 

## on. And just to clarify, this equation is slightly 4 

## simplified. When we multiply this times the power of 5 

## the electrical component, we take into account the 6 

## ratio between the burner on time, so when the burner 7 

## is on and when the electrical component is on. 8 

## MR. SOHLER: Sorry. I was actually asking 9 

## about active mode. In other words, do you define 10 

## active mode as including just the time the burner is 11 

## on or is it the time that there is a call for space 12 

## heat from a thermostat? 13 

## MR. FRANCO: So, for the burner operating 14 

## hours is just when the burner is on. 15 

## MR. SOHLER: Right. In other words, okay, 16 

## does active mode -- I guess what I'm asking is does 17 

## active mode go beyond burner operating hours or is 18 

## the active mode time, if you want to call that equal, 19 

## to burner operating hours? 20 

## MR. FRANCO: When we do the analysis, we 21 

## account for active mode and standby use. We don't 22 

## differentiate. Why?The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. SOHLER: What I'm asking is do you 2 

## define active mode as -- you know is the boiler only 3 

## in active mode when the burner is firing or is the 4 

## active mode include the entire time -- the time the 5 

## burner is on, plus any other time where let's say the 6 

## target temperature has been reached. There's still a 7 

## demand for space heat, but the burner is not firing. 8 

## Doesn't that make sense what I'm asking? 9 

## MR. FRANCO: No, it doesn't. In terms of 10 

## the equations, how we apply it we apply just the 11 

## burning operating hours and then we take into account 12 

## other things that are going on to the system in terms 13 

## of the other components, electric use. So, how we 14 

## define it in terms of energy consumption is just the 15 

## burner operating hours and any adjustments to those 16 

## hours in terms of the electrical components. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So, Victor, the active mode 18 

## powers are greater than burner on hours? 19 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, potentially. Yes. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Because there are other 21 

## factors you include in active. 22 

## MR. FRANCO: Exactly, yes.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's consistent 2 

## with where I thought you were going. 3 

## MR. SOHLER: Okay, let me think about 4 

## that. Thanks. 5 

## MR. FRANCO: Okay. Thank you. 6 

## (Slide.) 7 

## MR. FRANCO: So, now let's look at in more 8 

## detail the assumptions for electricity use. So, one 9 

## of the components we consider is the primary 10 

## circulating pump. Obviously, there are systems that 11 

## have more than one pump. For this analysis, we 12 

## considered just the primary circulating pump. And 13 

## for both non-condensing and condensing units, we used 14 

## the same motor type. It's PSC average 81 watts 15 

## motor. DOE did not consider higher efficiency pumps 16 

## in this analysis, although DOE knows that there are 17 

## more efficient pumps associated with, for example, 18 

## condensing technology. 19 

## In terms of induced-draft and force-draft 20 

## fan, DOE derived values based on the 2013 AHRI 21 

## directory. In the directory there's an induced-draft 22 

## wattage that's available. It's called PE. And theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## values that are listed here are based on using 2 

## non-condensing natural draft, non-condensing induced 3 

## draft, and condensing technology. The average values 4 

## we applied to all models. 5 

## It is important to note for two-stage and 6 

## modulating we assumed that the reduced inducer power 7 

## would be 70 percent of these values. That's mainly 8 

## applicable to condensing equipment and for 9 

## gas-powered hot water boilers. 10 

## In terms of ignition, we assumed that they 11 

## use spark ignition for all products and the power is 12 

## equal to 25 watts. In the cases when the condensing 13 

## pump is present -- and we'll discuss this in further 14 

## detail in the installation cost model -- we assume 15 

## that the power will be equal to 60 watts. 16 

## Finally, in terms of standby and off mode, 17 

## we assume that 25 percent of consumers shut off the 18 

## boiler during the non-heating season. This is based 19 

## on stakeholders' comments on the previous NODA 20 

## analysis that we should account for a fraction that 21 

## do shut it off, so we have this fraction. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 2 

## Electric Institute. 3 

## Again, in terms of the pump motors, you 4 

## know there's been you know movement towards UCMs and 5 

## also the small motor efficiency by DOE went into 6 

## effect March of this year, so you're saying you're 7 

## not considering pumps with higher efficiency motors, 8 

## but they are in the marketplace, so won't that have 9 

## an impact; especially, starting in 2020 where the 10 

## average wattage might go down? 11 

## We'll start with that one. I have a few 12 

## other questions after that. 13 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much for that 14 

## comment. Because that just became effective. It was 15 

## before we did conduct this analysis. We will take 16 

## that into account for the next portion. 17 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you. Next 18 

## question I had was you said the spark ignition for 19 

## all products, the ignited power of 25 watts was that 20 

## also based on AHRI directory or where'd you get the 21 

## 25 watts? The reason I'm asking is I just remember 22 

## someone -- neighbor had a propane grill. They justThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## replaced their AA battery for the igniter and I'm 2 

## like why would you need 25 watts when an AA battery 3 

## would work? So, I'm just kind of curious where'd 4 

## that 25 watts come from? 5 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much. We got 6 

## that from manufacturers. 7 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Manufacturers? Okay. 8 

## And the pump, again, that's 60 watts is from the 9 

## manufacturers? 10 

## MR. FRANCO: This is actually from 11 

## manufacturer literature of pumps, related to pumps 12 

## for two or three pump models. 13 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: And Steve Rosenstock, 14 

## EEI. 15 

## What was kind of the range and some of the 16 

## values for the condensate pump or the ignition or the 17 

## pump motor? What kind of range did you see, just out 18 

## of curiosity, range of wattages? 19 

## MR. FRANCO: Pumps were around -- well, 20 

## the ones that we considered were for like an average 21 

## use and it was about the 60 watts. 22 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: 60 to 100, maybe,The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## something for the pump, for the primary pump. 2 

## MR. FRANCO: It could be a little bit 3 

## lower than 60, but yes. 4 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Okay. And what 5 

## about for the ignition of the condensate pump, what 6 

## kind of range did you see? 7 

## MR. FRANCO: For the ignition, that's the 8 

## only value that we have. 9 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's the only value? 10 

## Okay. And how about the condensate pump? 11 

## MR. FRANCO: That's the one that I 12 

## mentioned, the condensate pump. 13 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, the same with the 14 

## ignition, you just had the one value? 15 

## MR. FRANCO: We had two or three values. 16 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Two or three? Okay. 17 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna. 19 

## MS. MAUER: Steve, you were mentioning the 20 

## small motor rulemaking. I don't think the small 21 

## motor rule affects any of the motors used for 22 

## circulating pumps.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, thank you. Frank. 2 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 3 

## Victor, on the information here for the 4 

## oil-fired products, okay, so every oil-fired product 5 

## uses some electricity in the burner to essentially 6 

## atomize the fuel, right? So, the natural draft 7 

## oil-fired you have a certain number there, which 8 

## would be let's say the standard oil-fired boiler. 9 

## So, now if you add that other component, which would 10 

## be the draft inducer, which is totally independent of 11 

## whatever is happening with my burner, shouldn't the 12 

## total watts of the non-condensing induced-draft model 13 

## be higher not lower? 14 

## This is saying that the wattage usage for 15 

## I'll call it standard oil-fired product is 236 and 16 

## yet, if I add the feature of another component, 17 

## electric-using component, which would be the draft 18 

## inducer, my total wattage usage goes down. Something 19 

## seems to -- I'll defer to the people who make the oil 20 

## boilers, but it doesn't seem right, though. 21 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much for that 22 

## comment. We would appreciate feedback on that.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## These are averages that are in the AHRI directory. 2 

## There could be other things going on in terms of the 3 

## burner, in terms of the induced draft, and we would 4 

## be taking a look at that in more detail in the 5 

## engineering analysis to help determine what actually 6 

## going on. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 8 

## MR. HAINLEY: I can comment for any -- 9 

## Gary, U.S. Boiler Company. 10 

## I can comment on our products with induced 11 

## draft oil that the burner is the same, whether it's 12 

## an induced draft or an atmospheric vented product. 13 

## So, I would agree with Frank's assertion that that 14 

## number for induced draft should be at least equal to 15 

## if not higher than the atmospheric vented product. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks Gary. Let's 17 

## press on here, Victor. 18 

## (Slide.) 19 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. So, going into 20 

## more detail in terms of the induced draft, this is 21 

## going to be important in terms of the installation 22 

## costs, which we will be talking about in a littleThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## bit. 2 

## We came up with fractions of models that 3 

## have induced or forced draft based on the 2013 AHRI 4 

## directory. So, this slide shows those fractions. 5 

## So, for a gas hot water boilers, 82 percent there 6 

## about 22.25 percent. If you go to 85, they're about 7 

## 63 percent. And we did the same for all the 8 

## products. We'll get back to these fractions when we 9 

## talk about installation costs, but this is just to 10 

## highlight this in terms of energy use. 11 

## (Slide.) 12 

## MR. FRANCO: The next slide shows the 13 

## final results in terms of the annual energy 14 

## consumption savings in terms of the active mode or 15 

## AFUE standard for the four products being considered 16 

## -- four classes being considered for each of the 17 

## efficiency levels. So, you can see the fuel energy 18 

## use savings and electricity consumption savings. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Rick. 20 

## MR. MURPHY: Rick Murphy, AGA. 21 

## Victor, I'm assuming that the annual MM 22 

## BTUs for gas boilers is a weighted average based uponThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## the distribution of where the boilers are currently 2 

## in place today. 3 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. 4 

## MR. MURPHY: Okay. Thank you. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Gary. 6 

## MR. HAINLEY: Gary Hainley, U.S. Boiler. 7 

## Back to the previous Slide 60, just to 8 

## clarify that you looked at fraction of models in the 9 

## AHRI directory that's not -- just to confirm not 10 

## sales, but just listed models. 11 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. Yes, those 12 

## are listed models. And we would really appreciate to 13 

## match that to shipments in this analysis. We assume 14 

## that the models would be similar to shipments. 15 

## (Slide.) 16 

## MR. FRANCO: This next slide provides the 17 

## same results for the standby in terms of electricity 18 

## consumption, and you can see the same exact. 19 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 20 

## Electric Institute. 21 

## I think here and also in the technical 22 

## support document EL3. I think there's a math errorThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## there in terms of your savings. 2 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct, yes. 3 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: I think it should be 19.6 4 

## or 19.7 kilowatt hours for that EL3. 5 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, that is correct. Thank 6 

## you so much for bringing it up. 7 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 8 

## Again, just looking at this -- and again, 9 

## you were talking about kind of a -- well, I haven't 10 

## really divided it. When I'm looking at this, again 11 

## also thinking about the boiler operating hours, it 12 

## looks like it's the -- like for EL3 it's the full 13 

## almost 2 watts of savings based on I'll say 8100 14 

## hours of operating in standby. So, it looks like -- 15 

## again, I had to dig through I guess a little more, 16 

## but again, it seems like when you talk about the 17 

## wattage savings it does look like for this 18 

## characterization that if it gets you know put in for 19 

## the full analysis of the national impact it does look 20 

## like it's the full I'll say 2 watts savings at EL3. 21 

## It does look that way based on my -- again, I'm just 22 

## trying to match up all the numbers and calculations,The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## so it might be a little overstated. Thank you. 2 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. So, this 3 

## concludes the energy use characterization. And let's 4 

## look at some comments. 5 

## So, we request comments on using RECS and 6 

## CBECS data for calculating energy consumption, both 7 

## water heating and space heating. We request comment 8 

## on the fraction of boilers that are used in 9 

## commercial applications. We're 7 percent. We also 10 

## request comments on the approach for adjusting AFUE 11 

## based on the field considerations for automatic 12 

## means, jacket losses, return water temperatures. And 13 

## we also request comment on the fractions of 14 

## installations of low temperature and high 15 

## temperature. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here? John? No? 17 

## (No response.) 18 

## MR. FRANCO: And next, DOE requests 19 

## comments on the fraction of boilers that are used for 20 

## domestic water heating. We request comment on the 21 

## fractions that are installed with draft inducers, so 22 

## that would be shipments by efficiency level. DOEThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## also requests comments on the 25 percent assumption 2 

## used for the boilers being shut off during the 3 

## non-heating season. And we invite any other comments 4 

## associated with energy. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 6 

## MR. STANONIK: Victor, one of the things 7 

## in looking -- you know you mentioned the use of the 8 

## RECS data, and on Slide 50 it says that it references 9 

## RECS 2009. and it indicates that the total number of 10 

## buildings that would have a gas product -- and again, 11 

## I'll just use that as an example -- either hot water 12 

## or steam comes out to be about 10.5 million. And I 13 

## didn't bring my whole copy of RECS with me, but the 14 

## excerpt I had indicates that number is at least that 15 

## chart -- I'll send it to you, but indicated the total 16 

## was only about 8.6 million buildings that either had 17 

## a gas, steam or hot water. 18 

## I guess we need to get that settled 19 

## because obviously if, taking my viewpoint, if you're 20 

## 10 million and ^^^^ a half numbers high then you know 21 

## by a factor of 25 percent overestimating the savings 22 

## benefit because there's not that many buildings thatThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## have boilers. I'll send you what I'm looking at. 2 

## You know RECS numbers are RECS numbers, right? 3 

## Either I'm looking at the wrong chart or something 4 

## got slipped here. 5 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much, Frank. 6 

## Let me just explain a little bit what these numbers 7 

## represent. So, the first row, which is hot water gas 8 

## boilers, is actually all the samples that have a gas 9 

## and that we consider based on the criteria that they 10 

## have a boiler. That's the number. 11 

## The steam boiler is actually a subset of 12 

## that number, so we're actually using only six million 13 

## buildings that we think that have a residential 14 

## boiler and that would match up to your numbers a 15 

## little bit better. So, don't add up those two 16 

## numbers. The whole sample is what we're using for 17 

## the hot water boilers. 18 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay, Victor, now be 19 

## careful because if steam is a subset then -- you know 20 

## we know that they're selling a whole lot more hot 21 

## water boiler than they're selling steam boilers. 22 

## Again, we'll look at that, but I think there's moreThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## -- I think today we have more hot water boilers 2 

## installed than steam, but your numbers would say two 3 

## out of three are -- based on the count two out three 4 

## are steam and that's off. 5 

## MR. FRANCO: Probably it would've been 6 

## better to use the -- actually, these numbers that 7 

## we're using in terms of the weights that we used in 8 

## our analysis are provided in Table 7.2.1 and beyond. 9 

## The first column is just the RECS weighting and the 10 

## next column is actually the number of boilers, sort 11 

## of our weighting based on whether it's a replacement 12 

## or a new construction. 13 

## And for example, for gas-fired hot water 14 

## boilers we assume that that represents four million. 15 

## And for gas-fired steam boilers that represents .4 16 

## million, so that's 10 times more for the steam. 17 

## MR. STANONIK: I stopped looking at that 18 

## table, okay. 19 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, sorry about that. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Take a peek at these 21 

## request for comment boxes, see if we have any 22 

## additional comments here, and also acknowledge theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## offer from Frank and I think also Gary to see if they 2 

## could come up with some additional data, some 3 

## additional shipments data. Steve comment here? 4 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, again, Steve 5 

## Rosenstock, EEI. 6 

## When you say that they're "shutting off 7 

## the boiler," for those that are not doing hot water 8 

## heating so it really doesn't go off, you know it's 9 

## springtime and summertime and they set the thermostat 10 

## -- you know if they have a common thermostat it's set 11 

## to air conditioning. How would the boiler be on, or 12 

## if they have this room air conditioner? The air 13 

## temperature boiler never comes on. How is I'll say 14 

## not shut off? 15 

## I guess I'm a little loss here. I know 16 

## there's some electric standby, but in terms of I'll 17 

## just say the main boiler function is you know after a 18 

## certain day in the spring when it's warm enough the 19 

## boiler really isn't going to come on. Yes, no one 20 

## has pushed a switch, but how is it "not off" for the 21 

## warm weather? 22 

## MR. FRANCO: So, obviously the standby isThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## this value that even though it's not operating 2 

## there's still this standby. We assume based on some 3 

## input that there were some situations where people 4 

## might unplug the appliance or do something else and 5 

## that this would be this 25 percent. 6 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: And Steve Rosenstock, 7 

## EEI. 8 

## There aren't any boilers with I'll say 9 

## like shutoff valves or anything? 10 

## MR. FRANCO: Not that we are aware of, but 11 

## we requested from manufacturers if that's the case. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please, Gary. 13 

## MR. HAINLEY: Gary Hainley, U.S. Boiler. 14 

## Just to summarize a comment I made earlier 15 

## about low temperature versus high temperature 16 

## applications, I think the data that was presented 17 

## overestimates the number of low temperature systems 18 

## out there, that the majority of the systems out today 19 

## for replacements are going to be high temperature, 20 

## high-end homes. Certainly, there are going to have 21 

## low temperature systems with radian in bathrooms and 22 

## kitchens, et cetera, but that's a small percentage.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## And the second comment is on the fraction 2 

## of boilers that require draft inducer by efficiency 3 

## level, and I think it's our contention that as you 4 

## get 84 or 85 percent if that became a federal minimum 5 

## that that starts to drive the inducer percentage 6 

## almost to 100 percent for a gas water boiler just 7 

## because chimneys aren't functional in a broad sense 8 

## at that point. Thank you. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. Look at the 10 

## request for comment boxes on your sheet, please, both 11 

## 4-2 through 4-9 and see if we have anything 12 

## additional at this point. Joanna. 13 

## MS. MAUER: Gary, if I can just ask you a 14 

## question about your last comment on inducer fans. 15 

## Are you saying that the portion of shipments is at 85 16 

## percent those inducer fans would be higher than the 17 

## portion of models at 85 percent with inducer fans? I 18 

## guess it looks like DOE collected data on all 19 

## available models and whether they have an inducer fan 20 

## or not. And I think for gas hot water they're 21 

## showing 63 percent would have an inducer forced draft 22 

## at 85 percent AFUE.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## MR. HAINLEY: I think that the shipments 2 

## -- Gary Hainley, U.S. Boiler. 3 

## My comment was more specifically if the 4 

## proposed rulemaking went into effect that it would 5 

## drive a higher percentage of inducer fans, but I do 6 

## believe that for both atmospheric and for induced 7 

## product today that shipments will be different from 8 

## the models listed in the directory. I can't comment 9 

## on whether that percentage of models matches 10 

## shipments or not. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Frank. 12 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, with AHRI. 13 

## But Joanna, I think looking at it maybe a 14 

## little bit differently, yes, we would expect a huge 15 

## percentage of models would now have to have that 16 

## draft inducer and so that, in fact, it would be 17 

## likely that even in terms of shipments you know the 18 

## shipments of actual units with draft inducer because 19 

## now you know not even in most. We're talking you 20 

## know probably 70, 80 percent or whatever you know 21 

## that were to go up because that's what would be 22 

## available.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## You'd certainly flip the current situation 2 

## where there's probably more models without inducer 3 

## motor -- yes, draft inducers on them at the 80 4 

## percent level or whatever and that would certainly 5 

## flip. Whatever the percentage might be, without 6 

## question, the actual shipments of models with draft 7 

## inducers would go up a lot. 8 

## MS. MAUER: I mean I think DOE is 9 

## capturing that to some extent. 10 

## MR. STANONIK: I think it's going to be 11 

## higher than that even. 12 

## MS. MAUER: Okay. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here? 14 

## We're about to break for lunch. We're at a natural 15 

## break point. Let's pause for lunch. It's now almost 16 

## 12:25, so let's break for an hour, which means we'll 17 

## resume at 1:25. 18 

## (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken at 19 

## 12:25 p.m.) 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Hope you all had a nice 21 

## lunch. We're going to pick up where we left off on 22 

## life cycle costs and payback period analysis, andThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## back to Victor. 2 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. Welcome back. 3 

## This is Victor Franco again. We're going to next be 4 

## talking about life cycle cost and payback analysis 5 

## and at the end subgroup analysis in this section. 6 

## (Slide.) 7 

## MR. FRANCO: This first slide shows the 8 

## flow chart of the analysis input for the life cycle 9 

## costs and payback period analysis. The two yellow 10 

## boxes show the end result to payback period and life 11 

## cycle costs. We consider the total install cost 12 

## incremental. That's the top portion. We've gone 13 

## over markups, which is part of the consumer prices. 14 

## We'll talk a little bit more on consumer prices and 15 

## installation costs. 16 

## The bottom portion shows the annual 17 

## operating cost savings, which are also an input. 18 

## Those also have the annual energy costs, and we 19 

## discussed energy consumption related to that, and 20 

## we'll talk about all these parameters in more detail 21 

## in the next few slides. 22 

## The last component that's important thatThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## we'll be discussing is the base case efficiency 2 

## distributions. 3 

## (Slide.) 4 

## MR. FRANCO: This next slide provides a 5 

## little bit of an overview about the life cycle costs. 6 

## So, just as a reminder, the purpose of this is to do 7 

## an economic evaluation from the residential 8 

## consumers' perspective and this is over the lifetime 9 

## of the equipment. The method and the equations are 10 

## available down here. And just the last thing to 11 

## point out is we model this using certain variability 12 

## inputs using Monte Carlo approach and so a lot of the 13 

## inputs that we'll be using our hard lay distributions 14 

## using an Excel spreadsheet, which is available for 15 

## the public to take a look at. 16 

## (Slide.) 17 

## MR. FRANCO: This next slide provides an 18 

## overview of all the inputs that we'll be discussing, 19 

## so it basically has a basic purpose definition and 20 

## more or less a summary of the methodology, so I won't 21 

## be going through this, but this might serve as a good 22 

## -- going back to and seeing the different inputs thatThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## we're talking about. 2 

## So, I'll go through these in order. So, 3 

## first, we'll start with the consumer product price. 4 

## So, the consumer product price is the manufacturing 5 

## costs times markup times sale taxes. We already 6 

## discussed markups and sales taxes and manufacturing 7 

## costs previously. 8 

## The only topic we haven't discussed here 9 

## is we have a product price trend based on historical 10 

## PPI data. For this product we looked at the PPI data 11 

## and found that there wasn't much of a trend, and so 12 

## we assume a constant price trend for this. We would 13 

## request any data that's available. 14 

## We do have two scenarios that we look at. 15 

## We look at a decreasing and an increasing. And the 16 

## results are provided the MIA analysis in chapter 10. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 18 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 19 

## Especially for some of the newer people 20 

## this is real prices, not nominal. This is real. So, 21 

## when you're showing this graph of price factor index 22 

## for your one that I'll say both increasing orThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## decreasing it looks by 2048 it's a 60 percent real 2 

## price increase versus about a 40 percent real price 3 

## decrease in your sensitivity analysis, and that's 4 

## over and above inflation. Correct? That's a real. 5 

## Thank you. 6 

## MR. FRANCO: That's correct. Thank you 7 

## for that. 8 

## So, the next component of the total 9 

## install costs are the installation costs. These are 10 

## about 14 to 15 slides that we'll be taking a look at 11 

## carefully on the installation cost, and I assume 12 

## you'll have comments and questions, so we'll go 13 

## through this in a little bit more detail. 14 

## (Slide.) 15 

## MR. FRANCO: This first slide provides, 16 

## more or less, a general overview of the installation 17 

## cost model. We take into account three basic 18 

## components in terms of the installation costs. The 19 

## first one is the basic installation cost. I'll be 20 

## describing those in more detail in the next slide. 21 

## Then we take into account venting costs, both for 22 

## non-condensing and condensing boilers, and we'll beThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## talking in a few slides about that. And for 2 

## condensing equipment, we take also into account 3 

## condensate withdrawal installation costs. 4 

## It's important to note that these costs 5 

## are for the individual households, so any value that 6 

## I've provided are average values, but we do have a 7 

## value for each household that's specific for that 8 

## household and that installation location. So, in 9 

## that regard, we'll be starting in terms of looking at 10 

## the installation location, which is an important 11 

## component of this model. 12 

## The last thing to point out here is the 13 

## sources. We use 2013 RS means, residential and 14 

## mechanical cost data. We also based some of our 15 

## assumptions and data based on the 2007 furnace and 16 

## boilers final rule and 2011 direct final rule for 17 

## furnaces as well as manufacturer literature. 18 

## (Slide.) 19 

## MR. FRANCO: So, this slide shows the 20 

## determination of installation location, the 21 

## assumptions based on RECS 2009 housing sample. RECS 22 

## does not provide the exact installation locationThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## where these boilers are located, so we have to make 2 

## some assumptions where we might think the boiler is 3 

## installed. 4 

## Since many boilers are installed in 5 

## basements, we assume that if the household has a 6 

## basement it will be installed in the basement. The 7 

## RECS does report if the basement is finished or 8 

## conditioned or unconditioned, so what we do 9 

## differentiate between conditioned and unconditioned 10 

## basements. 11 

## We next take a look if the household has a 12 

## garage. If the household has a garage, we assume 13 

## that it's in the garage. And if it doesn't have any 14 

## of those, we assume that it's in another location 15 

## indoors. 16 

## The fractions of installation based on 17 

## these assumptions are reported here. So, for gas 18 

## boilers, 35 percent are in conditioned basements, 27 19 

## in unconditioned basements, 8 percent in garages, and 20 

## 30 percent in other indoor locations and the similar 21 

## values are for the oil boilers as well. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 2 

## When you're saying other indoor locations, 3 

## what part of the house would they be placed in? Are 4 

## you assuming that they would be on the first floor or 5 

## second floor? I'm just kind of curious. It says 6 

## other indoor, and I know that some of that's just 7 

## commercial buildings, but I'm just saying for those 8 

## residential locations would that included an occupied 9 

## floor and an attic? I'm just trying to get my arms 10 

## around what -- you know when you say 30 percent that 11 

## is significant. I'm just kind of curious where the 12 

## assumption would be. 13 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, that's a very good 14 

## question. We do actually assume that a fraction do 15 

## go in the first floor. The locations would be kind 16 

## of like in a closet area, kind of like maybe a 17 

## utility room, but it's kind of indoor location inside 18 

## the building that's connection -- more connected to 19 

## the building. There's a fraction that we assume that 20 

## are potential on the second floor if the household 21 

## has a second floor. 22 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## Other indoor conditioned space is what the 2 

## analysis is considering, right? 3 

## MR. FRANCO: That's correct. Yes, that's 4 

## correct. 5 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Paul. 7 

## MR. SOHLER: Paul Sohler. 8 

## If there's a garage and a basement, you're 9 

## assuming the boiler is where, in the basement? 10 

## MR. FRANCO: So, first consideration is 11 

## the basement, yes. 12 

## MR. SOHLER: The other thing, and I think 13 

## this maybe comes back to the previous section, but 14 

## you know I think it's been kind of a longstanding 15 

## assumption that a boiler in a basement the heat 16 

## that's lost from it, whether it's -- not really 17 

## differentiating between whether there's radiation in 18 

## it or not, is considered useable energy because it's 19 

## going to tend to rise through the house. So, I'm a 20 

## little lost as to why you even need to consider you 21 

## know the losses out of the jacket of the boiler 22 

## really, which you've done previously and I guess itThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## you know loops back into here for differentiating. 2 

## MR. FRANCO: That was our assumption that 3 

## since it was unconditioned for a lot of this it might 4 

## not trickle up. It would be good if you could 5 

## provide feedback on that so that we could make the 6 

## proper adjustments. 7 

## MR. SOHLER: All right, we could provide 8 

## feedback, but I think, like I said, there is an 9 

## understanding -- well, actually, in 103 nowhere else 10 

## -- I mean it's not -- something I think you guys kind 11 

## of have access to if you look at you know indoor 12 

## boilers. In EISA 103, you do not measure jacket 13 

## loss; yet, you seem to be assuming that there is 14 

## jacket loss there, which kind of contradicts the 15 

## standard that you know using. 16 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, our understanding is 17 

## that there are some situations where the boiler is 18 

## kind of -- it's not directly impacting the heating of 19 

## the household because it's kind of in a space that's 20 

## not directly connected to the house. Those losses 21 

## may be different from what we're assuming, but we 22 

## assume that there's a certain fraction. We wouldThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## appreciate your comments if those are -- if that's 2 

## not appropriate. 3 

## MR. SOHLER: So, you're assuming, as I 4 

## read this 27 percent of gas boilers are installed in 5 

## a place where the jacket loss is of no use to heating 6 

## the building is what this is saying. 7 

## MR. FRANCO: Correct; 27 plus the 8 8 

## percent for gas, so that's what we looked at before, 9 

## which is the 35 percent. This has implications in 10 

## terms of the installation as well because we'll be 11 

## looking at other factors that play into this. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please, John. 13 

## MR. RODER: John Roder from Burnham 14 

## Holdings. 15 

## There've been a number of occasions where 16 

## we've been asked to provide more data. And I was 17 

## just wondering; John, will that be taken into 18 

## consideration with respect to the extension that's 19 

## been requested? I understand now it's also 20 

## formalized. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We'll take data at any 22 

## time during this process, so a good way to give data,The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## particularly, business-sensitive data is through the 2 

## NDAs with our consultants. You can do that at any 3 

## time during the comment period or out. We will 4 

## consider it as much as we can in the analysis. 5 

## MR. RODER: But we have a hard date to get 6 

## written comments back to you, and that's got to be 7 

## the priority unless you give us a little latitude on 8 

## that. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So, like I said, 10 

## DOE's considering the comment extension. I could say 11 

## that we will grant some period of time. I can't tell 12 

## you the number of days, but I can say confidently we 13 

## will extend it. It's hard for me to sit here and 14 

## tell you how to prioritize what you what to give us. 15 

## From a selfish point of view, the numbers are really 16 

## good for us, but your concerns are obviously very 17 

## important to you on the rules. So, we want 18 

## everything, but again, if the numbers come later 19 

## through the NDAs we'll take it. You know but at some 20 

## point we're going to go forward with what we have. 21 

## MR. RODER: Okay. All right. Thank you. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Fair enough?The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. RODER: Yes. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 3 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 4 

## I'm also again kind of interested -- 5 

## again, I know you've looked at the RECS data a lot 6 

## more than I have. In terms of the homes with I'll 7 

## say unconditioned basements and garages, is there 8 

## also data in there in terms of tying them into homes 9 

## that also have either room air conditioning or no air 10 

## conditioners versus central systems? 11 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, that is correct. 12 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Is there a good 13 

## correlation the higher percentage in unconditioned 14 

## basement the more likelihood its room air conditioner 15 

## or no air conditioning? 16 

## MR. FRANCO: No, I don't have that data. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Rick. 18 

## MR. MURPHY: John, just a follow-up 19 

## question to the point on incremental data, I would 20 

## assume it's depending upon the level of data that's 21 

## shared. But based upon data that is provided, would 22 

## DOE re-run their spreadsheets and re-publish thoseThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## that would then become available for review again? 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: You know I can't say one 3 

## way or the other at this point until -- those 4 

## decisions are made based on what we get, but at this 5 

## point, no, we plan on going final after this unless 6 

## there's a reason to do something different. 7 

## (Slide.) 8 

## MR. FRANCO: So, next, I'll be going into 9 

## more detail into these three installation components. 10 

## So, first, let's quickly go into basic installation 11 

## costs. So, the basic installation costs include the 12 

## following. A trip charge in case of replacements, 13 

## removing of old boiler in case of replacements, 14 

## placing and set up the boiler, circulating pump, 15 

## installation gas and oil piping, water piping, 16 

## electrical hookup to a thermostat, and permanent and 17 

## removal of disposal piece. 18 

## The basic installation costs are the same 19 

## throughout for all the efficiency levels. That's we 20 

## call them basic installation costs. These do not 21 

## include any adjustments to the distribution itself. 22 

## So, in our analysis, we consider that theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## distribution is not impacted and that's why we 2 

## decreased the efficiency of, for example, condensing 3 

## boilers. 4 

## In terms of the overall average basic 5 

## installation costs, the numbers are provided in this 6 

## table. They're about 2,700 for gas-fired hot water 7 

## boilers. And again, these take into account 8 

## geographical location as well as the installation 9 

## location and installation time, whether it's 10 

## residential or new owner or replacement. 11 

## Next, we'll take a look at the venting 12 

## installation costs. So, there will be quite a few 13 

## slides regarding this. 14 

## (Slide.) 15 

## MR. FRANCO: In terms of the venting 16 

## installation costs, we take a look at cost related to 17 

## non-condensing boilers, which might include chimney 18 

## re-lining, metal vent modification, metal vent also 19 

## for new construction, and stainless steel venting. 20 

## So, we'll go into these in more detail in the next 21 

## few slides. 22 

## (Slide.)The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: For condensing boilers, we're 2 

## talking a look at new PVC venting, orphan water 3 

## heaters potentially, combustion air direct vent 4 

## installation costs, and also concealing pipe 5 

## replacement. 6 

## (Slide.) 7 

## MR. FRANCO: One of the major components 8 

## of the venting is the venting length. Here's the 9 

## methodology that we used, all the different inputs we 10 

## take into account and a floor chart. First, we 11 

## consider whether it's a vent vertical length or 12 

## horizontal. Typically, in non-condensing this would 13 

## be a vertical, a stainless steel or PVC piping for 14 

## condensing would be a horizontal length. 15 

## In terms of getting the actual distance, 16 

## we come up with all these different components, 17 

## including the ceiling height, the floor height, if 18 

## the household has a cathedral ceiling, number of 19 

## floors above the boiler, and whether it has a 20 

## horizontal distance as well and that goes into the 21 

## vertical length. 22 

## In terms of the horizontal length, we takeThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## into account where the boiler is installed, assume 2 

## that the boiler is installed somewhere. On average, 3 

## it will be installed in the middle kind of the 4 

## household, so that would be the average length 5 

## diagonally. And in some situations, it might be able 6 

## to vent directly through a wall, so it might be a 7 

## short length. In other situations, it might be all 8 

## the way at the other side of the household, 9 

## diagonally, which would be the maximum distance. So, 10 

## for each household there's a distribution that's 11 

## applied and that takes into account the average wall 12 

## length and average horizontal to vertical vent ratio. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Rick. 14 

## MR. MURPHY: rick Murphy, AGA. 15 

## Victor, I didn't see any costs associated 16 

## with the relocation of the boiler. Does that assume 17 

## that that would never take place? 18 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, this analysis does not 19 

## assume any relocation of the boiler. This assumes 20 

## that it's in the same location. And the venting is 21 

## what actually travels a distance to wherever it needs 22 

## to be vented. So, let's say you have a situationThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## non-condensing where you're venting vertically at a 2 

## certain location in the building and you can't vent 3 

## through the wall that's closest to the boiler. And 4 

## so, you don't move the boiler, but you do have to 5 

## vent through for say, for example, the other side of 6 

## the room and so we consider the cost of having the 7 

## vent go through that wall on the other side. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Paul. Roger. 9 

## MR. MARRAN: Roger Marran. 10 

## I just wanted to add onto the vent cost. 11 

## So, when we look at installations that are for 12 

## wall-hung boilers, oftentimes the original boiler is 13 

## free-standing in the middle of the basement, for 14 

## example, and they'll have to move the boiler to the 15 

## wall. Sometimes they have to build a wall. They 16 

## definitely have to re-pipe some of the piping to get 17 

## over there, so there are additional costs 18 

## considerations that maybe additional there. I'm not 19 

## sure if that's incorporated as well. 20 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that comment. 21 

## No, we didn't actually apply it that way, but that 22 

## would be good if you could put that into a writtenThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## comment. That's something that we could consider 2 

## actually moving the boiler in a situation and then 3 

## having to do re-piping. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And Roger, if you have any 5 

## estimate of costs also that would be very helpful. 6 

## Yes, Paul. 7 

## MR. SOHLER: Paul Sohler. 8 

## The orphan water heater issue, if I'm 9 

## understanding this correctly, was not considered in 10 

## the non-condensing boiler levels? 11 

## MR. FRANCO: In terms of stainless steel, 12 

## it is considered. So, if you had to do a stainless 13 

## steel that would be an orphan water heater. Yes, 14 

## it's not listed here as a specific. Sorry about 15 

## that. 16 

## MR. SOHLER: Okay. 17 

## MR. FRANCO: And we'll go into that in 18 

## more detail in the next slides. 19 

## MR. SOHLER: Thanks. 20 

## (Slide.) 21 

## MR. FRANCO: So, let's go into more 22 

## details in terms of looking at the case where we'reThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## doing a replacement case, non-condensing to 2 

## non-condensing. So, we have a few considerations. 3 

## First, depending on the input capacity we assigned 2 4 

## inches to 6 inches, depending on the vent size, 5 

## depending on the input capacity of the boiler. We 6 

## have fractions based on data from 1990s about the 7 

## fraction of units with a masonry chimney. Of these 8 

## we assume that a fraction require re-lining. If the 9 

## household has a chimney and the boiler is installed 10 

## before 1995, we assume that it has to be relined. 11 

## In terms of venting re-sizing of vent 12 

## connectors that might be required, first, we consider 13 

## whether the chimney has been relined. If it hasn't, 14 

## then we might consider vent re-sizing. To consider 15 

## the household to be re-sized, in terms of the 16 

## venting, the house also has to have an existing 17 

## natural draft boiler and the last boiler replacement 18 

## has to be before 2020. We base the efficiency of the 19 

## boiler based on the RECS data about the boiler age 20 

## vintage and the historical shipments data provided by 21 

## AHRI. 22 

## The last piece of the non-condensing toThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## non-condensing is the stainless steel venting. We 2 

## assume that half of the fraction of the models that 3 

## we previously reported would require the households 4 

## to install a stainless steel, new stainless steel 5 

## venting. So, for 82 percent at hot water, gas water, 6 

## there were 22 percent of the models had an induced or 7 

## a forced-draft fan. We assume that 11 percent of 8 

## those then would have to install a new horizontal 9 

## stainless steel vent. 10 

## Similarly, for the 85 percent, we assume 11 

## half of the previous fraction, so 83 percent was from 12 

## 32 percent had to do this vertical venting. When you 13 

## do this vertical venting, obviously, you have to -- 14 

## and you're doing a Conley vented with the water 15 

## heater you come into a situation orphan water heater. 16 

## So, in the situation where you have this stainless 17 

## steel, vertical -- horizontal venting we do take into 18 

## account orphan water heater. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Paul. 20 

## MR. SOHLER: Paul Sohler. 21 

## I would take serious issue with the 22 

## statement that -- or the assumption that the masonryThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## chimney requires re-lining if the boiler was 2 

## installed or the building built before 1995. It is 3 

## true that the National Fuel Gas Code does require 4 

## re-lining of some chimneys and then generally outdoor 5 

## ones, but if you've got an indoor terracotta chimney 6 

## that's correctly sized there is, in a lot of cases, 7 

## no reason to reline it. That seems to be kind of a 8 

## built-in assumption that you're going to do that no 9 

## matter what type -- what efficiency level you have 10 

## and I do not think that's correct. 11 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that comment. 12 

## So, just to emphasis, we're assuming that building 13 

## build after 1995 would meet the fuel code, so those 14 

## are okay, right? You agree that those -- 15 

## MR. SOHLER: Agreed. 16 

## MR. FRANCO: Those would be okay? Now, 17 

## the boilers that might be installed after 1995 what 18 

## you're saying is that a portion of those might not be 19 

## relined? 20 

## MR. SOHLER: No, I'm saying the ones built 21 

## before 1995, a lot of those will not need to be 22 

## relined. The assumption you're making that they allThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## will need to be regardless of what you know tech 2 

## level you go to. 3 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, as we'll see, the 4 

## fraction is fairly small due to the fact that a lot 5 

## of boilers have been installed after 1995, so if the 6 

## boiler has been installed after 1995 -- between 1995 7 

## and 2020, which is a large fraction of the boilers, 8 

## 2020, that there won't be any chimney re-lining in 9 

## our analysis. 10 

## MR. SOHLER: Okay. 11 

## MR. FRANCO: We'll go into those fractions 12 

## in the next few slides. 13 

## (Slide.) 14 

## MR. FRANCO: So, now let's briefly go into 15 

## the non-condensing to the condensing situation. So, 16 

## in the non-condensing to condensing situation, you 17 

## have to look at replacing the metal vent with PVC 18 

## flue vent. In terms of the materials, we assume a 19 

## certain fraction are PVC or PP, polypropylene and a 20 

## certain fraction are CPVC installations. 21 

## (Slide.) 22 

## MR. FRANCO: The venting also is between 2The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## inches and 3 inches. The fractions are provided 2 

## here. Again, we take into account several 3 

## installation locations in terms of what the venting 4 

## length will be. We take into account the wall types 5 

## that the penetrations will have to go through and the 6 

## vent determinations are also taken into account. In 7 

## addition to this, there's a cost added for the air 8 

## combustion vent for direct vent installations. The 9 

## fractions are provided in chapter 8 appendices for 10 

## installations. 11 

## Further, there's also an additional costs 12 

## for concealing vents in indoor installations. So, 13 

## for the fraction of installations that are indoors 14 

## there might be a cost for actually concealing the 15 

## vent piping. Say, for example, you have to go 16 

## through a living space and you don't want to have the 17 

## piping through there, so we add a cost for concealing 18 

## that. 19 

## The last we've discussed briefly for the 20 

## stainless steel is the orphan water heaters. So, 21 

## that's the case where you're venting the water heater 22 

## together with the boiler. And when you're installingThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## that either stainless steel or the PVC venting for 2 

## the condensing equipment, you'd have to disconnect 3 

## that. In that case, there might be a situation where 4 

## you might have to reline the chimney, re-size the 5 

## venting, and we do take that into account. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We have a comment from 7 

## someone online. Mike McDonald says one other 8 

## consideration is that not all installing contractors 9 

## offer chimney re-lining. This can be a problem with 10 

## 85 percent non-condensing boilers. This can also 11 

## limit the choices that a consumer has when choosing 12 

## an installer. 13 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that comment. 14 

## (Slide.) 15 

## MR. FRANCO: Next, we'll be talking about 16 

## the fractions. 17 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 18 

## When you talk about concealing vents in 19 

## indoor location, vent pipe concealing wouldn't that 20 

## be tied into the current location of the boiler, like 21 

## if it's in a basement would you really need to 22 

## conceal it?The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: Often in the basement not 2 

## unless you're going through the condition space. So, 3 

## for example, if you have a game room or something -- 4 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Gotcha. 5 

## MR. FRANCO: -- or a living area and you 6 

## have to go through there. 7 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Frank. 9 

## MR. STANONIK: So, Victor, so you're 10 

## assuming 75 percent of installations would use a 11 

## 2-inch PVC or polypropylene. And I don't know the 12 

## exact number. I'm sure we can dig it up, but when 13 

## you get to a certain input level the standard PVC 14 

## pipe won't be 2 inches. It'll be 3 inches. My guess 15 

## right now it isn't that much pass the baseline unit. 16 

## The baseline unit is 100,000, right? And so I think 17 

## that the 75 percent estimate that they're going to 18 

## have 2-inch PVC is probably a little high. I think 19 

## it's going to be more that have a larger and then 20 

## more costly because it's going to be 3-inch. I don't 21 

## think you would ever run into any 4-inch on a 22 

## residential, would you? No?The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Paul. Paul wants to 2 

## follow on. 3 

## MR. SOHLER: The short answer is yes. 4 

## When you get up to the upper 200 -- you know close to 5 

## the upper limit of a residential range you do run 6 

## into boilers with ^^^^ condensing boilers with 4-inch 7 

## vents. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. I appreciate 10 

## that. And you can have that in written comment that 11 

## would be better. 12 

## (Slide.) 13 

## MR. FRANCO: So, the next two slides 14 

## provide the fractions that we are applying, so 15 

## they're kind of a little bit of summary in terms of 16 

## both the fractions and the installation costs. So, 17 

## I'll go fairly quickly through the fractions, and 18 

## these are all provided in the appendices to chapter 19 

## 8. 20 

## So again, we consider the cases where 21 

## we're going from a non-condensing to a non-condensing 22 

## situation. And we're accounting for unlinedThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## chimneys, re-lining those, installing new vent 2 

## connectors, re-sizing the vent system. And these are 3 

## the fractions that we applied to the appropriate 4 

## installations that might require this, and we also 5 

## apply stainless venting. We do the same for the 6 

## condensing, and here are the different fractions, 7 

## especially for the orphan water heater situation. 8 

## The next slide will actually provide the costs that 9 

## were associated in the fractions. So, let me go to 10 

## the next slide. 11 

## (Slide.) 12 

## MR. FRANCO: So, this slide provides the 13 

## cost for just the non-condensing hot water gas boiler 14 

## installations, but obviously, we did this for all the 15 

## different product classes. So, in terms of vent 16 

## re-sizing for 82 percent we assume that .3 percent 17 

## need a vent re-sizing, 2.2 percent need a vent 18 

## connector, 5.7 percent need chimney re-lining. And 19 

## again, we're applying these fractions with new 20 

## stainless steel venting 11 percent. So, this is the 21 

## overall fraction of installations that when you're 22 

## going from non-condensing to non-condensing wouldThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## require some vent modifications at 82 percent. 2 

## (Slide.) 3 

## MR. FRANCO: The other fractions for the 4 

## other prior classes are provided here. The last four 5 

## rows provide the average cost, so again, this is an 6 

## average cost. When we apply this to a specific 7 

## household the range is pretty wide in terms of the 8 

## actual costs. So, in terms of vent re-sizing and 9 

## chimney re-lining it's about $1500. The vent 10 

## connector would be about a little less than $300, and 11 

## a new stainless steel vent, which again, 12 

## horizontally, would be around $500. 13 

## When we put all this together in terms of 14 

## doing this by efficiency level, we come up with these 15 

## additional costs. So, at 82 percent the average cost 16 

## -- so, for all households if we average them 17 

## altogether is $159 due to the venting. At 85 percent 18 

## the cost is 238, so the differential would be those 19 

## two. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: John. 21 

## MR. RODER: John Roder, BHI. 22 

## Is that for just the materials, or is thatThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## labor and materials? 2 

## MR. FRANCO: This includes labor and 3 

## materials for the venting, so this includes the 4 

## stainless steel vent, for example, and also the labor 5 

## required. 6 

## MR. RODER: Okay. 7 

## MR. FRANCO: And again, the details are 8 

## provided in the appendices. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Rick. 10 

## MR. MURPHY: Victor, when you do consider 11 

## or take into account orphan water heaters, in 100 12 

## percent of those instances are they doing the 13 

## appropriate venting installations to retain that 14 

## water heater, or do you account for any water heater 15 

## switching? 16 

## MR. FRANCO: No, for this analysis we 17 

## don't account for any water heater switching. We 18 

## assume that they have to do a re-lining of the water 19 

## heater. 20 

## (Slide.) 21 

## MR. FRANCO: So, the next slide provides a 22 

## similar cost in fractions data for going from aThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## non-condensing to a condensing situation. The 2 

## fractions and the costs are both for gas-fired and 3 

## oil-fired hot water boilers. Those are the only two 4 

## prior classes I have condensing efficiency levels. 5 

## So again, the first column lists the 6 

## fraction of installations t hat this would be 7 

## applicable to and the average cost. So, this again 8 

## is an average cost. The weighted average cost would 9 

## be essentially multiplying the fraction of 10 

## installation to the average cost and that would be 11 

## $776 of installed cost for installing the gas-fired 12 

## hot water boiler in terms of venting costs and the 13 

## similar situation for oil-fired hot water boilers. 14 

## (Slide.) 15 

## MR. FRANCO: so, now moving onto new 16 

## construction and new owners, so new construction is 17 

## applicable to oil-fired and gas-fired hot water. We 18 

## assume that steam there are no new construction. For 19 

## new owners, it's just for hot water gas boilers. And 20 

## again, new owners in this analysis is just for people 21 

## that don't have previously a boiler. 22 

## So, these installation costs includeThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## adding the new flue vent for non-condensing boilers, 2 

## so it includes either a metal vent and a fraction 3 

## that will install a stainless steel vent. For 4 

## condensing gas boilers we have PVC, new PVC vent, 5 

## combustion air vent, direct vent installation. This 6 

## says PVC, but this includes the other venting types, 7 

## the similar fractions -- venting material. Sorry. 8 

## And we also account for commonly vented water heater, 9 

## what would be the impact in terms of the costs as 10 

## we're looking at the next slide. 11 

## (Slide.) 12 

## MR. FRANCO: So, in terms of the 13 

## condensing boiler, the venting installation costs 14 

## with the water heater we added half of the venting 15 

## costs of the water heater, and we'll see this in the 16 

## next slide. 17 

## (Slide.) 18 

## MR. FRANCO: So, the next slide, again 19 

## this is just for new construction and new owners. 20 

## And this is just for gas-fired and oil-fired. We 21 

## have the metal vent system and the stainless steel 22 

## vents. Here are the fraction that we assume have aThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## metal vent and the fraction that have stainless 2 

## steel, and the average costs of weighting these two 3 

## is the last column. So, on average, we assume that 4 

## the total venting is about $1600 for gas-fired at 82 5 

## percent and $2000 for oil-fired hot water boilers. 6 

## (Slide.) 7 

## MR. FRANCO: Next, we considered the 8 

## condensing boiler installation costs. And again, the 9 

## first column is the fraction, the next column is the 10 

## average cost, and at the bottom is the weighted 11 

## average of these two. 12 

## Just to point out, we have, for example, 13 

## orphan water heater assign 20 percent. Half of the 14 

## cost of the venting for that is 446. So, it's 15 

## included in the 717. 16 

## (Slide.) 17 

## MR. FRANCO: So, moving from the venting 18 

## costs, we go into condensate withdrawal. So, this 19 

## flow chart goes over a little bit the overall 20 

## condensate withdrawal methodology. We take into 21 

## account the condensate pump, so we apply that to all 22 

## condensing installations. We also take into accountThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## for a fraction of the time the condensate 2 

## neutralizer. For units that's applicable we take 3 

## into account the condensate pump, and for some of 4 

## those we take into account the electrical outlet. 5 

## So, for some of these equipment there 6 

## might not be an extra outlet for the plug in the 7 

## condensate pump, so we assume that 50 percent of the 8 

## time they'll have to install an extra electrical 9 

## outlet. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 11 

## MR. STANONIK: Victor, I'm going back one 12 

## slide. Showing in your new construction slide -- in 13 

## your new construction slide, you're estimating that 14 

## only 60 percent of the condensing boiler 15 

## installations in new constructions would use a 16 

## combustion event. So, based that only 60 percent 17 

## would go to what we'd call a two-pipe system, what's 18 

## the basis for -- why 60 percent? 19 

## And we will certainly see if we can come 20 

## up with a number that has you know some relevance or 21 

## some validity, but I mean my experience would say if 22 

## in a new home they're going to install a condensingThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## boiler and they are going to go sideways that they're 2 

## going to give you the two-plate system, so you're 3 

## talking both your combustion air from outdoors and 4 

## your venting outdoors, obviously. So, what's 60 5 

## percent? 6 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes. Thank you so much for 7 

## that comment. That's actually something that we want 8 

## to get input on. So, if you go to Appendix 8C, 9 

## there's a Table 8C.2.8, which is the fraction of 10 

## direct vent condensing boiler installations. Based 11 

## on the interactions with the consultants, we came up 12 

## with fractions based on installation location. You 13 

## don't have the table probably in front of you, but 14 

## for a basis we assumed 50 percent would require 15 

## direct vent installations, for garage is 90 percent 16 

## and for indoor 67 percent. If you multiply that 17 

## times the installation of fractions previously, you 18 

## would get the 60 percent. Obviously, if you have any 19 

## feedback on those fractions that would be really 20 

## appreciated. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 22 

## MR. RODA: Victor, just going back to theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## categories of installation locations and the 2 

## condensate, just wondering is there any cost 3 

## associated with condensate management from a freezing 4 

## standpoint particularly in unconditioned spaces? 5 

## MR. FRANCO: So, in this case we assumed 6 

## that it's in the location where there is no issue 7 

## regarding freezing even though it's in a 8 

## non-conditioned basement. Usually, it will be above 9 

## freezing, but if there's any feedback or data on 10 

## that. We assumed that there isn't in this analysis. 11 

## (Slide.) 12 

## MR. FRANCO: Okay, so the next slide shows 13 

## the fractions again and a little bit more of a 14 

## description of each of these components with the 15 

## condensate withdrawal. The bottom part again shows 16 

## the fraction of installations that are impacted. So, 17 

## for example, we assume 18 percent would require 18 

## condensate pumps, so that takes into account in new 19 

## construction wouldn't apply or new owners. And the 20 

## average costs are also provided. So, on average for 21 

## gas-fired hot water boilers, the average cost is $98 22 

## that's added.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## (Slide.) 2 

## MR. FRANCO: So, putting all this together 3 

## this next slide comes up with the average total 4 

## installed costs results. So, the total install cost 5 

## includes the consumer prices, the installation costs, 6 

## and the total cost is provided here as well as the 7 

## incremental. 8 

## (Slide.) 9 

## MR. FRANCO: So, moving on from 10 

## installation costs, now we're going to be talking 11 

## about energy prices. There are two components to 12 

## energy prices -- 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Paul, please, go ahead. 14 

## MR. SOHLER: Paul Sohler. 15 

## Before we move on, maybe I missed it, but 16 

## in the incremental installation costs you're going 17 

## kind beyond the -- you have basic costs for things 18 

## like plumbing that apply to all classes of equipment. 19 

## In the case of condensing boilers, did you allow 20 

## anything additional for secondary -- you know a lot, 21 

## maybe not all, but I would say most you know 22 

## manufacturers require a primary/secondary pumping, soThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## you've got changes to the new boiler, piping around 2 

## the boiler that you would not have with a 3 

## non-condensing boiler in a lot of cases. 4 

## MR. FRANCO: That's very good feedback. 5 

## We did not. We considered just a single pump. And 6 

## we're considering actually the same type of pump as a 7 

## non-condensing. So, that would really be feedback if 8 

## we can get -- and especially if we can get fractions 9 

## where it would be applicable. We do understand that 10 

## there are a lot of systems that -- for example, zone 11 

## systems that would require potentially separate 12 

## pumps, maybe even valves and to understand what's the 13 

## differences between non-condensing and condensing 14 

## would be really valuable to us. 15 

## MR. SOHLER: There are, I would say, 16 

## almost always even on a single-zoned system two pumps 17 

## on a condensing boiler and the one that pumps through 18 

## the boiler is often considerably larger than the one 19 

## that you might use to circulate water through the 20 

## system, which, by the way, is going to drive up the 21 

## energy -- the electrical consumption. So, that 22 

## should be taken into account.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## MR. FRANCO: Great. No, that's great 2 

## feedback. Thank you so much. 3 

## MR. SOHLER: Thanks. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks Paul. Yes, please, 5 

## Alex. 6 

## MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, LBNL. 7 

## So, just about this secondary pump is it 8 

## part of the boiler design or this is something that 9 

## is installed additionally in the field? 10 

## MR. SOHLER: In some cases the 11 

## manufacturer supplies a pump with the boiler that's 12 

## designed to provide adequate flow through the heat 13 

## exchanger and then the installer supplies the second 14 

## pump. In some cases the manufacturer supplies no 15 

## pump, but the installer is directed to provide two 16 

## pumps. And there may be some cases -- I don't know 17 

## this for sure -- where the manufacturer supplies 18 

## both. I would say that's probably the minority. 19 

## Again, some inspection of installation manuals would 20 

## tell you, you know, but it's basically a matter of 21 

## getting adequate flow through the heat exchanger, 22 

## which typically has a higher pressure drop than thatThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## through a conventional boiler regardless of what the 2 

## flow is out in the system. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks. 4 

## (Slide.) 5 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for all those 6 

## comments. 7 

## So, next, we will be talking about energy 8 

## prices. And again, energy prices there are two 9 

## components to them. First, the energy prices related 10 

## to the household and the year that we were 11 

## considering 2012 and that we would be escalating 12 

## those based on energy price trends in the next slide. 13 

## We'll be discussing that. 14 

## So, we developed average marginal monthly 15 

## prices for each household and building. The marginal 16 

## prices are significantly different than the average 17 

## prices for natural gas and electricity. There are no 18 

## marginal prices assumed to be different between 19 

## average and marginal between LPG and oil monthly 20 

## prices. 21 

## The methodology is to come up with, first, 22 

## regional average annual prices by month, and thenThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## multiply those by monthly price factors and then 2 

## marginal price factors. And we do take into account 3 

## differences within certain buildings and regions. 4 

## So, based on CBECS and REIS data, we come up 5 

## household building price factors. 6 

## The data sources are primarily EIA to come 7 

## up with these average annual prices, the monthly 8 

## energy price factors, and the marginal price factors. 9 

## Details of this are provided in the appropriate 10 

## appendix in chapter 8. And the household and building 11 

## energy price factors comes from the RESI and CBECS 12 

## building data. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, John. 14 

## MR. RODER: Victor, I have to apologize. 15 

## This is John Roder from Burnham Holdings. 16 

## Can I take you back because I'm really 17 

## struggling with one part of this? 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Which page? 19 

## MR. RODER: Back to Slide 79. I've had 20 

## some experience personally and professionally with 21 

## re-lining chimneys. And it says here "Chimney 22 

## re-lining for orphan water heater $840." Where didThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## you get that data? 2 

## MR. FRANCO: This is re-lining, yes. So, 3 

## this is based on the venting -- again, we taking a 4 

## look at these household, single floor, two floors, 5 

## depending on that venting and depending on -- we're 6 

## assuming kind of like a flexible aluminum liner kind 7 

## of situation going through. Based on the 8 

## installation location and the vent length, we come up 9 

## with the 840. The orphan water heater usually the 10 

## vent size could be significantly smaller. Usually, 11 

## it's about 2 or 3 inches because the input capacity 12 

## of the water heater is -- 13 

## MR. RODER: Right. We have pretty much 14 

## determined that the boiler installed base is 15 

## intercity row homes typically more than one or two 16 

## stories. I mean so I think that needs to be factored 17 

## in. All right, but let's take that piece of data and 18 

## go back over to slide 84. If you look at the -- we 19 

## believe, and my colleague, Paul Sohler, can give you 20 

## the technical reasons better than I can for this, but 21 

## when you move to an 84 or an 85 percent efficiency 22 

## that causes a need to line a chimney.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## To line a chimney is going to be at least 2 

## I think close to a thousand dollars. You're saying 3 

## $846 for a water heater. Lining a chimney for a 4 

## boiler vent is going to be considerably more; yet, 5 

## you say that the incremental cost is $56 to go from 6 

## say 82 to 84 and $180 if you go to 85. That must be 7 

## that you're not accounting for the fact that at 84 8 

## and 85 you need to line chimneys. 9 

## MR. FRANCO: We do account for lining 10 

## chimneys, but it's only on these orphan water 11 

## heaters. You're talking about the case of stainless 12 

## steel installations, I assume. 13 

## MR. RODER: As to the particular lining 14 

## material I think stainless steel is one option. 15 

## MR. SOHLER: Yes, aluminum would be -- 16 

## again, depending on what type of boiler we're talking 17 

## about it's conceivable it could be aluminum. 18 

## MR. FRANCO: I think I understand. Maybe 19 

## this might -- 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Can we go to Slide 78? I 21 

## think that's where the chimney re-lining costs are. 22 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes. That's the waterThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## heater. Now, in terms of chimney re-lining of a 2 

## boiler, if we go back to 78 -- 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, that $1600 roughly. 4 

## MR. RODER: Right. But doesn't that even 5 

## prove the point more though that if it's $1600 the 6 

## incremental cost between 82 and 84 would be at a 7 

## minimum $1600. 8 

## MR. FRANCO: Well, that's only applied to 9 

## a fraction. And in this case, if you look at the 10 

## chimney re-lining and then re-sizing there's only a 11 

## very small fraction, so it's only applied to 4 12 

## percent of installations, for example. 13 

## MR. STANONIK: John, I'll explain this the 14 

## way I understand it; and it's probably not going to 15 

## be fair to DOE, but I guess they'll have to accept 16 

## that. I look at that and so they say, okay, that's 17 

## the cost, but only 5.2 percent of the houses will 18 

## need that. So, in essence, they're assuming that all 19 

## the customers that don't need it are going to help me 20 

## pay for it because I do need it. So, they basically 21 

## disperse the cost of that across all households that 22 

## have the installation.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: No, no, no. 2 

## MR. STANONIK: Well, then how do you go 3 

## from $1600 to $40. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Victor. 5 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. No, that's 6 

## something I wanted to clarify from the beginning. 7 

## So, all these values we're saying are average values 8 

## are essentially what you're saying they're average 9 

## values. From household-to-household, the specific 10 

## costs are added. So, for example, for 5 percent of 11 

## the households they will get this $1600 cost and they 12 

## will get that significant cost for that household. 13 

## The other household would have no cost associated to 14 

## doing this. 15 

## MR. STANONIK: All right, so then when I 16 

## get to the life cycle costs discussion then we see -- 17 

## Frank Stanonik, HIR. 18 

## Then you see this incremental cost that 19 

## says, oh, and when we're all done with this analysis 20 

## the actual incremental costs for these step ups in 21 

## efficiency is in the tens of dollars. 22 

## MR. FRANCO: And that's because of howThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## we're averaging. You also need to consider new 2 

## construction, new owners and that gets all averaged 3 

## in to those values. Those are average values. If 4 

## you looked at the individual household, you do have 5 

## some households that have this huge cost. 6 

## MR. STANONIK: I'm sorry. I was looking 7 

## at 84. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9 

## MR. STANONIK: I'm sorry. My mistake. 10 

## It's average installed cost. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 12 

## MR. STANONIK: But I'm still looking at a 13 

## very small incremental increase, and yet, we're 14 

## talking about some percentage of homes that have 15 

## incremental increases that are, in this case, 10 16 

## times that or more. 17 

## MR. RODER: Paul, did you want to offer a 18 

## comment? 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Paul, please. 20 

## MR. SOHLER: See, coming back to that, we 21 

## talked about this before. At the bottom of page 84, 22 

## these are incremental costs. So again, you made anThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## assumption that 100 percent of the chimneys built 2 

## before 1995 you know are going to require re-lining 3 

## at whatever tech level you happen to be working at is 4 

## what I see here, so this incremental cost would then 5 

## be above that baseline; am I not understanding that 6 

## right? 7 

## MR. FRANCO: No, so it would be two 8 

## criteria. One is the household was built before 9 

## 1995, but also the boiler was also installed before 10 

## 1995. There are a lot of households that have a new 11 

## boiler between 1995 and 2020. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And if a new boiler was 13 

## installed after 1995, then you presume that it was 14 

## re-lined appropriately at that point. 15 

## MR. FRANCO: Correct. And that's why the 16 

## fraction of chimney re-lining is only about 5 percent 17 

## if you go back to Slide 78, if not, it would be much 18 

## higher if we assumed that it was 100 percent. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And the great bulk of 20 

## boilers in the installed base between 1995 and 2020, 21 

## the great majority of that installed base is in 22 

## place.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: Correct. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean it probably would 3 

## be helpful to know what the average age of the boiler 4 

## and the stock is in 2020. I think that would help 5 

## him with the math. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Really this is important. 7 

## I want to get to the bottom of this if we can, so 8 

## keep thinking about what your questions would be and 9 

## let's drill down here. 10 

## MR. RODA: I'll dumb it down and I'll just 11 

## be natural and that naturally dumbs it down. DOE 12 

## says go to 85. We want to go to 85 percent. We are 13 

## asserting that if you go to 85 percent you have to 14 

## line the chimney every time. That's more than a 42 15 

## or $52 incremental cost differential between an 82 16 

## and an 85. And I just don't know what I'm not 17 

## understanding here, but it just does not seem to be 18 

## taken into account. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20 

## MR. RODER: 85 request flue line -- excuse 21 

## me, chimney lining. Chimney lining costs a thousand 22 

## dollars minimum. How you can come up with anThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## incremental cost that is $56 or $180 doesn't make 2 

## sense. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Victor. 4 

## MR. FRANCO: Hopefully, this will explain 5 

## a little bit, and I would say your feedback, and 6 

## hopefully this explanation will help you also provide 7 

## better feedback. 8 

## So, we're assuming that chimney re-lining 9 

## is required, for example, here for 5.7 percent. 10 

## MR. RODER: Non-condensing to 11 

## non-condensing. 12 

## MR. FRANCO: Non-condensing to 13 

## non-condensing at 82 percent. And if you go down 14 

## further, about 4.3 percent require the chimney 15 

## re-lining in terms of doing the metal vent. Because 16 

## a certain fraction go to stainless steel, the 17 

## stainless steel cost will include the chimney venting 18 

## for the remaining 1.4 percent. 19 

## In essence, you have chimney re-lining at 20 

## 82 percent fraction similar to the 85, so there's no 21 

## differential. 22 

## MR. RODER: Right. And you're suggestingThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## that they're virtually the same, 5.7 percent to 4.3. 2 

## Correct? 3 

## MR. FRANCO: Because the stainless steel 4 

## includes that cost in the stainless steel. It's kind 5 

## of included in that -- the 1.4 percent is included in 6 

## the stainless steel. 7 

## MR. RODER: And I think perhaps some of 8 

## the difference may be the issue that we believe that 9 

## 85 percent it's not 30 percent, it's not 4.3 percent. 10 

## It's virtually all. 11 

## MR. FRANCO: And that's the type of -- 12 

## yes. 13 

## MR. RODER: And Paul, I'm going to ask you 14 

## to help me on the technical side. 15 

## MR. SOHLER: What you asking a minute ago? 16 

## I missed it. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: The question I think I 18 

## hear is no matter what the situation of the house or 19 

## the chimney if any of us here today have a boiler 20 

## installed, no matter what efficiency level it is if I 21 

## buy an 85 do I need to re-line the chimney every 22 

## single purchase time.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. SOHLER: And we would submit, yes. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No matter what's in there 3 

## right now? 4 

## MR. SOHLER: Yes. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Even if I have an 85 in 6 

## there now. 7 

## MR. SOHLER: If you have an 85 percent in 8 

## there now, no. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: What if I have an 84? I 10 

## mean do you see what I'm getting at here? I mean 11 

## you're saying every single -- he's saying every 12 

## single time, but the market's not all at below 80. 13 

## It's not all at 82, so what we're asking from the 14 

## stakeholders is to give us -- we don't have it 15 

## exactly the way you think it should be we're asking 16 

## for the data to tell us what it is. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Amy, I believe. 18 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Yes, Amy Shephard with 19 

## AHRI. 20 

## I want to just point out that in the NOPR 21 

## DOE notes that Crown Boiler, U.S. Boiler, and New 22 

## York Boiler didn't think that this venting issue wasThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## correct and they urged DOE to get input from building 2 

## inspectors and code officials, which I think makes a 3 

## lot of sense. Like let's call up and get some actual 4 

## quotes and see if we can validate this data. 5 

## And DOE said that gathering input from a 6 

## representative sample just wasn't possible in the 7 

## timeframe of the NOPR preparation, but the NODA, the 8 

## final comments on that was in February 2014. And you 9 

## said earlier that it was submitted -- the NOPR was 10 

## submitted to NIRA in April of 2014, which is only a 11 

## period of a couple of months. And I would suggest 12 

## that -- I mean this seems like a big issue and it 13 

## makes sense and I think that there's some burden that 14 

## needs to be placed on DOE to also use available 15 

## avenues to get this data rather than just saying 16 

## always well the manufacturer should give it us. 17 

## That's my point on that. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, all I'm saying is if 19 

## an assertion is made is to back it up with data. 20 

## That's all we're saying. 21 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Amy Shephard again. 22 

## And I think that it's been requested thatThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## DOE also take some actions I think that are very 2 

## reasonable in consulting these code officials. And 3 

## what it says in the NOPR is we just didn't have time, 4 

## but it was two months from the NODA in which that 5 

## comment was raise to when DOE submitted the NOPR, and 6 

## I think that the time could have been taken to 7 

## resolve this data as well from DOE's end. 8 

## MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, ASPA. 9 

## Just a clarification, my understanding, 10 

## Victor, is that in the analysis the assumption is if 11 

## you have an unlined chimney and you're installing an 12 

## 85, then you always would re-line the chimney, so I 13 

## don't think there's any assumption that if you have 14 

## an unlined chimney you would not re-line it to 15 

## install it. 16 

## MR. FRANCO: Correct. Yes, we were 17 

## referring to the 100 percent of the time that you 18 

## have an unlined chimney we have to do that. The only 19 

## thing is the criteria of when potentially you do have 20 

## that situation and that's one of the slides, Slide 21 

## 85, more or less goes into that criteria. And I 22 

## think that's the only potential discussion point.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## So, we are assuming that the boiler is installed 2 

## before 1995 or the household is built before 1995 3 

## that you do have an unlined chimney. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: This is 75? 5 

## MR. FRANCO: This is 75, yes. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. Let everybody 7 

## get there. 8 

## MR. FRANCO: And in that case when you 9 

## have an unlined chimney, we do have the cost for the 10 

## re-lining. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, any additional 12 

## clarifying questions or comments here? Paul. 13 

## MR. SOHLER: Yes, this says -- or I guess 14 

## what you're saying is that you'd really say a boiler 15 

## was installed -- well, no. Okay, if either of these 16 

## happened before 1995 -- yeah, if the boiler was 17 

## installed or the building was built, so I guess 18 

## really it would be that that's implying that if you 19 

## had a building that was -- the chimney was built 20 

## before 1995, boiler is new, that you'd have to 21 

## re-line it, which is not what you're saying. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I think this is just getThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## at -- '95 was, I guess, the year where this code came 2 

## in, right? Am I right? 3 

## MR. SOHLER: That is correct. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, if the event is you 5 

## built a new house with a boiler it had to meet that 6 

## code, or the house is older than '95 and it put in a 7 

## new boiler after '95 it had to meet that code as 8 

## well. I think that's what that says. 9 

## MR. SOHLER: Nonetheless, there is, I 10 

## think, a false assumption here that you must re-line 11 

## for all these tech classes. You always, always, 12 

## always put in a chimney liner and that is not what 13 

## the Fuel Gas Code says. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So, I think what 15 

## you've been saying is that at the 82 level if we 16 

## assume 100 percent re-lining we're capturing costs 17 

## that you don't think is actually there. 18 

## MR. SOHLER: That's exactly right. Yes. 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for clarifying 21 

## that, John. Now, we're going to press on. 22 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for all thoseThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## comments. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Rick. 3 

## MR. MURPHY: I actually have a question on 4 

## the pricing. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Rick. 6 

## MR. MURPHY: Rick Murphy, AGA. 7 

## So, just going back to the pricing for a 8 

## minute, if I go to Slide 61 and I see the annual 9 

## consumption for the various levels of efficiency 10 

## ratings. For instance, gas-fired hot water boilers 11 

## ranging from 84.1 to 70.6, and then I look at the 12 

## life cycle cost analysis spreadsheet and look at 13 

## first year operating costs I realize that there 14 

## are ^^^^ part of those first year operating costs 15 

## include electricity. Correct? 16 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct, yes. 17 

## MR. MURPHY: So, if I try to back that out 18 

## and then take that dollar number and divide it by the 19 

## annual MMBTUs, I'm getting rates which you referred 20 

## to marginal natural gas rates that are significantly 21 

## higher than the analysis work that AGA and APGA did 22 

## on marginal gas prices. So, I want to state that forThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## the record. I know in the furnace proceeding we had 2 

## that same point, but I want to state that our numbers 3 

## are looking significantly different on the marginal 4 

## pricing. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And your written comments, 6 

## please. 7 

## MR. MURPHY: Yes. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. We have a 9 

## comment from Robert Glass. Robert asks the question 10 

## -- he's joining us online -- does the life cycle 11 

## costs include the necessary replacement of the 12 

## condensation neutralizer material (calcium silicate) 13 

## when depleted based on the amount of condensate 14 

## neutralized? 15 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question. 16 

## That does take into account in the maintenance, which 17 

## will be two slides from now, so we'll discuss that. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, we'll address 19 

## that then. Okay. We're going to keep moving on. 20 

## MR. MURPHY: Just one follow up on 21 

## pricing. Victor, is this going to be updated, the 22 

## pricing on the newly released EISA data?The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. Thank you. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 3 

## MR. FRANCO: Going back one second. So, 4 

## we just finished energy prices. Let's talk about 5 

## energy price trends. So, we use AEO 2013 Licensing 6 

## Division to make our projections form 2020 to 2040, 7 

## and the projections are available here in the data in 8 

## this chart. Further details area in chapter 8. 9 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 10 

## Electric Institute. 11 

## And I know this is from 2013, and I'm not 12 

## sure how the projections look in the 2015. I'm 13 

## guessing they're different. They just came out. I 14 

## didn't get a chance to look at the projections here, 15 

## and I know it's tough, but you know last winter 16 

## during the polar vortex propane prices went up to 4 17 

## or $5 a gallon when you could get it. Now, they're 18 

## back down to I'll say the regular prices. Also, 19 

## there were -- I'm just thinking as a fuel oil thing 20 

## here and like if you know fuel oil prices were $4 a 21 

## gallon. Now, they're about $2 a gallon, I think, 22 

## from what I've seen -- some of the information thatThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## I've seen. And prices over time for a lot -- well, 2 

## electricity, I think, looks okay, but I'm just saying 3 

## just for the fossil fuels, again, it's always 4 

## projecting an upward trend, especially after 2020. 5 

## And when I look at history I always like 6 

## to look at the history of prices of all of these and 7 

## I know this is a projection, but it seems like 8 

## actually the real prices for energy don't go up. 9 

## They tend to flat line or they're below inflation. I 10 

## know for electricity that's been true for 50 years. 11 

## So, has there been any thought about doing a 12 

## sensitivity analysis with flat or declining energy 13 

## prices on a real basis? 14 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. We appreciate 15 

## that question. We do have a sensitivity analysis 16 

## that's based on this low economic growth and high 17 

## economic grow that does have a little bit different, 18 

## but we don't have any other scenarios. It would be 19 

## good if you would provide any comments. 20 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 21 

## Yes, there's that one from EIH and I think 22 

## it goes back to like 1967 or '62 for a lot ofThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## commodities showing, so in times of high and low 2 

## economic growth the prices were pretty much flat or 3 

## declining on a real basis. It was like the state of 4 

## economy was irrelevant in terms of what was happening 5 

## with the prices. 6 

## There's some correlation, but in a lot of 7 

## cases when there's -- you know there've been times 8 

## when the prices stay flat rather than increasing, so 9 

## the result of this is you know any time there's an 10 

## increase in projection -- and I can understand why, 11 

## but you do tend to overstate the savings that will 12 

## have an impact on the life cycle that this type of 13 

## projection will overstate the actual savings that 14 

## consumers will see. 15 

## And I've said this in other proceedings, 16 

## but I think it's critical because you know you're 17 

## talking about you know 1 percent increase here, l 18 

## percent increase there. Well, you know this 19 

## projection could have huge impact on your life cycle 20 

## cost analysis. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We will forward your 22 

## comment to EIA.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is Steve Rosenstock, 2 

## EEI. 3 

## It's not a matter of whether EIA does it. 4 

## It's a matter of does DOE in its analysis want to do 5 

## a sensitivity analysis that would have I'll say you 6 

## know a low price increase type of sensitivity that 7 

## says, okay, based on past history over the last 50 8 

## years well real prices did not increase. This is 9 

## another alternative. Here's another life cycle 10 

## result based on flat energy prices or flat real 11 

## energy prices, which is what's happened over the last 12 

## 50 years. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, we do in the MIA, a 14 

## sensitivity, as Victor mentioned. We also perturbed 15 

## in installation cost, which probably has a much 16 

## bigger impact on the economics than does the energy 17 

## costs. I mean if you'd like to tell us what you 18 

## think the 2020 prices are for each of those fuels 19 

## we'd be happy to take that as a comment. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Victor. Go ahead. 21 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. So, just to point 22 

## out, the Appendix 8I provides this alternativeThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## pricing for LCC and 10B for MIA in case you want to 2 

## look at those projections. 3 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 4 

## Thanks. I didn't bring it with me, but do 5 

## they assume flat or declining real prices? 6 

## MR. FRANCO: No, they're different. 7 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: They're still increasing. 8 

## MR. FRANCO: They're still increasing. 9 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: So, none flat or none 10 

## declining. Okay. Thank you. 11 

## MR. FRANCO: So, next, we'll be taking a 12 

## look at repair and maintenance costs. 13 

## (Slide.) 14 

## MR. FRANCO: So, the repair costs are the 15 

## costs of replacing or repairing components in the 16 

## boiler that have failed. DOE considered different 17 

## sources for this data, primarily, 2013 RS means data, 18 

## product costs from engineering analysis, and the 19 

## following assumptions regarding the average lifetime 20 

## and repair rates of the different components. 21 

## So, we included the two different types of 22 

## repaired components. One we called "other," whichThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## includes ignition controls, gas valve, and automatic 2 

## means and also repairing either the mechanical vent 3 

## for mechanical vent boilers or the inducted forced 4 

## draft blower. The assumptions about the lifetime 5 

## come from studies connected by GOI in the late 6 

## 1980s/early 1990s. And these are the average values, 7 

## 12.2 in 15 years. And the repair rates assumptions 8 

## that we're making in terms of how often these would 9 

## be repaired. So, we're assuming that other 10 

## components would be repaired 50 percent of the time 11 

## between the lifetime of the appliance. 12 

## (Slide.) 13 

## MR. FRANCO: The material costs are 14 

## provided here as well as the labor hours. The 15 

## maintenance costs are the labor materials required to 16 

## maintain the product. The costs are based on 2013 RS 17 

## means; primarily, the labor costs. And the 18 

## frequencies are based on REIS sales and CBESC data on 19 

## whether the household owner reports the unit as 20 

## repaired frequently. 21 

## In terms of how frequently that repair is 22 

## conducted, we used dated from American Home ComfortThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## Survey. All the data is provided in the appendix for 2 

## repair and maintenance. 3 

## In addition to this, for condensing 4 

## designs, DOE accounted for the maintenance for the 5 

## condensate withdrawal system, so to do any 6 

## maintenance related to that and also, having to 7 

## replace condensate neutralizers. The details are 8 

## available in this appendix. 9 

## Finally, for oil furnaces, we did take 10 

## into account impacts of low sulfur fuel oil 11 

## regulations on the frequency of secondary heat 12 

## exchanger clearing, and this is based on EIA 13 

## projections about what areas would be regulated by 14 

## 2020. The details are in the same appendix. We 15 

## assume that 61 percent of oil-fired boilers would be 16 

## impacted by this. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please, Roger. 18 

## MR. MARRAN: Yes, Roger Marran from Energy 19 

## Kinetics. 20 

## I believe all equipment is going to be -- 21 

## all fuel supply by 2020 is going to be low sulfur or 22 

## ultra low sulfur, I guess, where it is you know withThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## the standards now, so that should be in place even by 2 

## I think 2018 or something. New York's ultra low 3 

## right and a bunch of other cities are low sulfur and 4 

## going that way. I think New England and the 5 

## Mid-Atlantic state by 2018, something to that affect. 6 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. We appreciate 7 

## that comment. Thank you. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Paul. 9 

## MR. SOHLER: Yes, Paul Sohler. 10 

## You said that the lifetimes and some of 11 

## the data that's in this table came from a GRI 12 

## research project from the 1990s? There were really 13 

## no -- I say no. There certainly were some, but there 14 

## were far fewer condensing boilers in the residential 15 

## world back then, so I would question whether you know 16 

## the data that's there is really validate, certainly 17 

## for condensing equipment. 18 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. We appreciate 19 

## that comment. We did look at the condensing furnace. 20 

## Obviously, condensing furnaces is different 21 

## equipment. It did have some data on condensing. And 22 

## we assumed that because of their similar lifetimesThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## and fractions of repairs that they could be 2 

## approximated by these, but we would appreciate your 3 

## feedback on that. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank. 5 

## MR. STANONIK: Quick question, so Victor, 6 

## the hundred dollars you have there as bare material 7 

## that is the estimated cost of a new draft inducer 8 

## motor? 9 

## MR. FRANCO: That's bare material costs, 10 

## so it does not include any markups. So, if you mark 11 

## that up two or three times more then that plus you 12 

## know the labor that would be your repair. 13 

## (Slide.) 14 

## MR. FRANCO: So, moving onto the next 15 

## slide, this just summarizes the repair costs. The 16 

## repair costs here are annualized, so obviously, even 17 

## though the household did have repair in the order of 18 

## 3 or $400, these are annualized, so it might happen 19 

## every 20 years, and here's the incremental costs and 20 

## the maintenance is also annualized, and you can see 21 

## the differentials there. 22 

## (Slide.)The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: So, next, we move onto to 2 

## lifetime. So, the next two components are critical 3 

## to the life cycle cost analysis, lifetime and 4 

## discount rates. So, lifetime is the age of the 5 

## residential boiler when it's retired from service. 6 

## We base this on national survey data from multiple 7 

## years of RECS and American Housing Survey as well as 8 

## shipment data, which I'll be describing in further 9 

## detail in chapter 9. 10 

## The methodology was developed in this 11 

## research paper. Based on this methodology, we came 12 

## up with a lifetime of 25 years and a distribution 13 

## that's provided in this graph. We assume that the 14 

## lifetime is the same for all product classes and 15 

## design options. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, pleas, Gary. 17 

## MR. HAINLEY: Gary Hainley, U.S. Boiler. 18 

## What did you base your assumption that all 19 

## product classes have the same lifetime? 20 

## MR. FRANCO: So, we were looking at data, 21 

## and obviously, there isn't sufficient data for 22 

## condensing to determine, for example, if condensingThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## or other higher efficiency equipment would have a 2 

## different lifetime. There have been some studies in 3 

## other countries, for example, in Europe, that have 4 

## determined that they do have similar lifetimes. 5 

## We would appreciate it if there's any 6 

## lifetime data that manufacturers could provide about 7 

## that. This methodology uses historical data. 8 

## Condensing, as we will look at the base case 9 

## efficiencies distributions condensing equipment 10 

## started be installed in 2000. And so, by 2009, which 11 

## is pretty much what we have data from RESC. It's 12 

## only nine years, so most of the condensing equipment 13 

## would still be in the stock, and we don't know how 14 

## that would be impacted. 15 

## MR. HAINLEY: Gary Hainley, U.S. Boiler. 16 

## I would agree with that. I think that 17 

## you're making the assumption that without additional 18 

## data to suggest that condensing product and 19 

## non-condensing product last the same amount that you 20 

## assume it's going to last 25 years; yet, we don't 21 

## have a product in the United States that have been 22 

## installed for 25 years. So, I think just the wholeThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## basis of that assumption is invalid. 2 

## The studies that I'm aware of that EPA 3 

## used in their life cycle or lifetime analysis were 4 

## from the UK. And my knowledge of UK boiler 5 

## installations is they're not the same as ours in that 6 

## most of the product that were installed -- and I 7 

## believe BRG data suggests 65 percent of the product 8 

## installed prior to the 2005 regulations in the UK 9 

## were copper boilers, which are going to have a 10 

## different lifetime than the traditional cast iron 11 

## product that we have installed in the United States. 12 

## So, by then concluding that there's no 13 

## contradictory data that suggest they won't last the 14 

## same amount it's not an apples-to-apples comparison 15 

## for one, and we are trying to find data that is more 16 

## conclusive, but again, we don't have product that 17 

## have been installed in the United States long enough 18 

## to be able to absolutely say that they will or won't 19 

## last as long. Thank you. 20 

## MR. SOHLER: And the only thing I would 21 

## add to that is I think, one, and it's far from 22 

## perfect, but it's sort of semi-objective source ofThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## information on that is simply to go look at 2 

## manufacturers' warranties. That tells you, at least 3 

## to a certain extent, what they think the life 4 

## expectancy is and there is a significant difference 5 

## between non-condensing and condensing if you look at 6 

## that, certainly between cast iron non-condensing and 7 

## condensing. 8 

## Antidotal, a lot of the Europeans that 9 

## we've spoken to talk about a 15-year life expectancy, 10 

## and I think that's kind of consistent with the 11 

## warranty information that's out there. I'm pretty 12 

## sure that we have already provided that comment to 13 

## DOE. I know we did to EPA. We will again if 14 

## necessary. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 16 

## MR. FRANCO: We'd appreciate all that 17 

## feedback in writing. Just to point out that we do 18 

## have a sensitivity analysis in Appendix 8F. It does 19 

## still assume that all the lifetimes are the same 20 

## within the efficiency levels, but it goes give you a 21 

## sense of the impact, for example, if we assume that 22 

## the lifetime is 20 years versus 30 years, forThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## example. So, you could take a look at that. It's 2 

## again in Appendix 8F. 3 

## (Slide.) 4 

## MR. FRANCO: The next slide move on to 5 

## discount rates. So, in terms of discount rates, 6 

## these are used to determine the present life of 7 

## lifetime operating costs. We have a different 8 

## methodology for determining residential and 9 

## commercial. 10 

## The main sources for residential are based 11 

## on the Federal Reserve Board's Survey of Consumer 12 

## Finances we used from 1995 to 2010. They provide 13 

## their data every three years. And for commercial, we 14 

## used a Damodaran online, which provides capital asset 15 

## -- cost of capital information. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Steve. 17 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 18 

## Electric Institute. 19 

## Just a quick question about the 20 

## residential, the Residential Income Group 1, is that 21 

## the lowest income and Group 6 is the highest income? 22 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes. And I can describe inThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## more detail. 2 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I guess, again, 3 

## looking at this, looking at the table, and I don't 4 

## know how detailed it was in the technical support 5 

## document. I guess it seems a little 6 

## counter-intuitive that the discount rate for Income 7 

## Group 1 would be lower than Income Group 2 and about 8 

## the same as Income Group 3. That just seems 9 

## counter-intuitive to me since they're in the lowest 10 

## income group. 11 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. We appreciate 12 

## that comment. Based on this methodology, we made it 13 

## consistent throughout and we will take a look at that 14 

## in more detail. 15 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 16 

## Electric Institute. 17 

## Again, I appreciate it and I know you 18 

## don't have the survey, but again, it's a matter -- I 19 

## guess it spills over into your consumer subgroup 20 

## analysis where -- you know you have a rising and 21 

## rising discount rate and then it goes back down. 22 

## Again, it could have an impact on that subgroupThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## analysis. And again, I'm just kind of curious how -- 2 

## I'm just really kind of -- it's very interesting how 3 

## and why did that happen? I'm really kind of curious, 4 

## if someone could explain that to me. 5 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. And I can go into 6 

## more details. So, the way discount rates are handled 7 

## in terms of residentials is that we take into account 8 

## different depths and equity types the household has 9 

## in its possession. 10 

## For Income Group 1, usually, they don't 11 

## have too many debts or equity. They might primarily 12 

## have a savings account, checking account and those 13 

## would be the basis for -- main basis for the discount 14 

## rate. They may have some loans, but they don't have 15 

## a large fraction. 16 

## If we come to Group 2, it seems like they 17 

## have more shares of different assets or debt types, 18 

## and that accounts for a little bit higher discount 19 

## rate. 20 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, Steve Rosenstock, 21 

## EEI. 22 

## I'd really like to see that because it'sThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## usually the lower income groups that are paying the 2 

## highest interest rates for any sort of credit, 3 

## whether it's a payday loan or a credit card or any 4 

## sort of bank loan and you know any dollar that's 5 

## spent you know is much more valuable because they 6 

## have so little of it. Again, it just seems 7 

## counter-intuitive to me. I don't have any 8 

## statistical data. I just -- you know especially in 9 

## urban areas that's where all they payday loans are 10 

## and that's where all the high interest type of 11 

## entities are that are there and so I would assume, 12 

## based on some of that, that their discount rates 13 

## would be much higher. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So, anybody that's got any 15 

## data that contradicts the Feds survey it would be 16 

## great to have that. 17 

## MR. FRANCO: And just to clarify, we'll go 18 

## into more detail on low income in a few more slides. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Keep going, Victor. 20 

## (Slide.) 21 

## MR. FRANCO: So, the average overall 22 

## discount rate is 4.5 for this analysis. Moving on toThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## base case efficiency distributions, we have a few 2 

## slides for base case efficiency distribution, so I'll 3 

## try to go over it fairly quickly. 4 

## (Slide.) 5 

## MR. FRANCO: So, the base case 6 

## efficiencies reflect the projected market share of 7 

## products of different efficiencies levels in the base 8 

## case, in other words, in the absence of standards. 9 

## So, this reflects that not all consumers purchases 10 

## parts at the current minimum standards. Consumers 11 

## who are already purchases products at higher 12 

## efficiencies are not impacted by the standard. 13 

## The methodology used is we tried to use as 14 

## much of historical shipment data that we had, and 15 

## also the boiler certification directories. The 16 

## development of the historical distribution of 17 

## efficiency levels in 2013 includes AHRI and Energy 18 

## Star shipments data from 2003 to 2012, estimated 19 

## historical shipments that will be described in more 20 

## detail in chapter 9, and a combination of different 21 

## certifications directories more details are available 22 

## in Appendix 7D.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## We assumed that the new Energy Star 2 

## performance criteria, which is 90 percent for 3 

## gas-fired boilers and 87 percent for oil-fired 4 

## boilers will have an impact by 2020. And based on 5 

## that, we're assuming that in 2013, 32 percent is the 6 

## current market share for condensing and will rise to 7 

## 46 percent by 2020, and similar 4 percent to 8 8 

## percent for hot water oil boilers. For gas-fired hot 9 

## water boilers, we accounted for regional differences, 10 

## and we'll go over those in a couple of slides. 11 

## The last point is in terms of the standby 12 

## and off mode standards. We assumed that 50 percent 13 

## of the market is at the baseline and 50 percent is at 14 

## the max tech or above. So, let's go briefly through 15 

## these, kind of summarizing the historical data and 16 

## our projections. 17 

## (Slide.) 18 

## MR. FRANCO: This is the chart showing the 19 

## historical and projected -- 20 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Can I just stop because I 21 

## had a question about something you just said. This 22 

## is Amy Shephard from AHRI.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## So, for the standby mode standard you said 2 

## you assumed that 50 percent were AL zero and that was 3 

## the baseline that you talked about earlier? 4 

## MR. FRANCO: That's correct. 5 

## MS. SHEPHARD: So, are there actual models 6 

## that are at that baseline because the way I 7 

## understood the way you described that was before is 8 

## you took the least efficient of all those different 9 

## mechanisms and you sort of created a model that had 10 

## all of those. So, we're assuming -- so, is that 11 

## correct? 12 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. Yes, 13 

## basically the 50 percent is accounting for -- all 14 

## these condensing have controls. 15 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Right. But you're assuming 16 

## at 50 percent are at that baseline that you created, 17 

## so I'm asking are there any actual models in the 18 

## market that are at that baseline? 19 

## MR. FRANCO: We don't actually have the 20 

## measurements, so we don't know what -- this is just 21 

## an assumption and we appreciate feedback on whether 22 

## this is too high --The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MS. SHEPHARD: Okay. And so -- and I 2 

## guess along those lines, normally, when you're doing 3 

## like just a regular efficiency standard level and you 4 

## start with your baseline you either start with what 5 

## the current standard is or you look at what's the 6 

## average in the market. So, why for the standby -- 7 

## for these standards did you not kind of look at the 8 

## market and think, okay, what's the most widely used 9 

## baseline for these in the market as opposed to 10 

## creating one that had the worst case scenario in 11 

## every single factor? 12 

## MR. FRANCO: So, DOE's approach for the 13 

## standby and off mode it doesn't want to take out 14 

## certain technologies that might be beneficial. So, 15 

## for example, the display might be beneficial for the 16 

## consumer, and so it's starts with assuming that it 17 

## has a display. It has a certain high wattage and 18 

## then it goes down from there. 19 

## (Slide.) 20 

## MR. FRANCO: So, going to the next slide, 21 

## this shows the projections. So, here we have the 22 

## historical data in blue for hot water and gas boilersThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## and in green for oil boilers, hot water oil boilers 2 

## and our projections. 3 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 4 

## Electric Institute. 5 

## But these projections were based on the 6 

## energy price trends that you were using in Slide 86, 7 

## correct, or what are these? Were these based on kind 8 

## of more of an extrapolation of what's been going on? 9 

## MR. FRANCO: Exactly. Yes, this is just 10 

## an extrapolation. It's not based on energy prices. 11 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 12 

## Again, this is where I'd also -- a 13 

## sensitivity analysis might be bad too because 14 

## remember with the very low prices that also might 15 

## hurt their market share in the absence of standards 16 

## because you know especially if the price of fuel oil 17 

## has gone down by 50 percent and natural gas has gone 18 

## down by 30 percent, et cetera, then you know these -- 19 

## you show these rises through 2020 and you know -- 20 

## again, it could be that it's just because there's you 21 

## know less savings by going to these products then the 22 

## market share might not be as high just because pricesThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## have collapsed. 2 

## Again, if you're allowed to do some 3 

## sensitivity analysis based on lower prices, it would 4 

## have an impact here as well. Thank you. 5 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that comment. 6 

## (Slide.) 7 

## MR. FRANCO: So, moving on to the next 8 

## base case efficiency distributions from 2013 to 2020. 9 

## So, this is a mixture of the fraction of models or 10 

## fraction of shipments that are at non-condensing 11 

## versus condensing and the disaggregation using the 12 

## certification directories. So, if you look at 2013, 13 

## this is what we come up with in terms of the 14 

## disaggregated market share for all these product 15 

## classes. And in 2020, based on the increasing 16 

## condensing market share, we come up with these 17 

## updated results. For steam, oil, and gas-fired 18 

## boilers there are no changes because there's no 19 

## change in the condensing fractions. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We have a comment from Mike 21 

## McDonald, who is online. He asks the question is the 22 

## growth in condensing based on any tax incentivesThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## above the current tax credits? 2 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question. 3 

## No, it isn't. It's mainly based on kind of the 4 

## Energy Star increased market share over time. It 5 

## also takes into account once you have a condensing 6 

## boiler you will be more likely to replace with a 7 

## condensing boiler. It's really hard to go back to 8 

## non-condensing once you've gone to condensing. So, 9 

## this does take into account increasing market share 10 

## over time of condensing even in the replacement 11 

## market. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. 13 

## (Slide.) 14 

## MR. FRANCO: So, the next slide provides 15 

## the disaggregated condensing market share by Census 16 

## Division. This data was provided by AHRI. From 2008 17 

## to 2012, we have shipments data, and these are the 18 

## fractions. So, you can see it does vary by regions, 19 

## so we did want to use this data because it does very 20 

## significantly. 21 

## Once we apply our projections, you can see 22 

## that for some regions it goes up to almost 100The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## percent, so it would good to take a look at these 2 

## carefully and see if you agree. 3 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 4 

## Just one caution for everybody, this is 5 

## percentage of boilers that are shipped into that 6 

## region, not necessarily percentage of all boiler 7 

## sales in the nation. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: It's nice to have shipments 9 

## data. 10 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you, Frank, for that 11 

## clarification. The other clarification is this is 12 

## just AHRI manufacturers or only HRI manufacturers. 13 

## (Slide.) 14 

## MR. FRANCO: So, this finalizes life cycle 15 

## and payback analysis inputs. Now, we go into the 16 

## results. So, these are average values that are 17 

## provided here in terms of the full install cost, 18 

## lifetime operating costs, average LCC, and the 19 

## average LCC savings and the median payback period. 20 

## This is just for gas hot water boilers. For all 21 

## other product classes, the TSC has the appropriate 22 

## tables.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## (Slide.) 2 

## MR. FRANCO: So, moving on to the consumer 3 

## subgroup analysis. So, DOE evaluates the impact on 4 

## consumers who might be disproportionately affected by 5 

## this national standard. DOE evaluated subgroup 6 

## analysis for low income and senior-only houses. The 7 

## results comparisons are provided here for all 8 

## products. 9 

## In terms of low income, it is important to 10 

## note that the DOE's analysis all household pay for 11 

## the full cost of more efficient boilers and fully 12 

## benefit from the lower energy bills; however, most 13 

## low-income households are tenants who benefit from 14 

## the lower energy bills, but not have a rent increase, 15 

## which cover for the higher equipment costs. Overall, 16 

## tenants are probably better off than suggested by the 17 

## LCC results. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 19 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 20 

## This was discussed in the furnace 21 

## rulemaking. I know this based on a study out of 22 

## Berkeley, but I think -- they're not here, but theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## homebuilders had a different perspective on it. And 2 

## I believe there's Multi-family Housing Council and 3 

## you know some of their perspectives. To assume that 4 

## the rent increases aren't going to cover the 5 

## equipment costs, but assume that all landlords that 6 

## whenever they're facing an increase in some sort of 7 

## cost that they can never pass on those increased 8 

## costs to tenants and there are many parts of the 9 

## country -- if you look were the rents are increasing 10 

## much faster than inflation, so somehow maybe not in 11 

## the first year or the second year, but overall they 12 

## are going to recover their costs or else they 13 

## wouldn't be in business, or they might ^^^^ if they 14 

## can't recover their costs, they might reduce 15 

## maintenance or other sorts of operating costs in 16 

## another way that would let the property degrade a 17 

## little bit and actually increase energy costs. 18 

## So, I understand the philosophy behind 19 

## this, but I think there needs to be some checks with 20 

## the actual building owners and landlords or you know 21 

## and/or home builders to see how they treat or how 22 

## they recover their costs because they are going --The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## they have to recover their costs somehow at some 2 

## point. It might not be in the first year. It might 3 

## be in the second year. It might just be with the new 4 

## tenants, but somehow they have to recover their costs 5 

## or else they're not going to be able to run the 6 

## building. 7 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that. 8 

## (Slide.) 9 

## MR. FRANCO: The last slide is a request 10 

## for comment. I will go really briefly through some 11 

## of these. We request comment on the reasonableness 12 

## of our consumer prices and also any alternative for 13 

## the suggestion of using the constant trend, and if 14 

## there's any data for trends of projections of prices 15 

## for condensing and non-condensing boilers and any 16 

## comments on the approach and data sources used for 17 

## changes in installation costs for more efficient 18 

## residential boilers. Also, comments that relate to 19 

## installation costs of the fraction of different 20 

## material types for condensing, including PVC and 21 

## CPVC. 22 

## We've already gone through this, but theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## fraction of boilers that would be required to be 2 

## installed with stainless steel venting by efficiency 3 

## level. And I'll go to the next few. 4 

## (Slide.) 5 

## MR. FRANCO: We request any feedback on 6 

## the sources and data used for maintenance and repair, 7 

## also on its approach for determining lifetime and 8 

## estimating discount rates for both residential and 9 

## commercial consumers. DOE also requests comments on 10 

## its projections for higher efficiency condensing 11 

## boilers in 2020 in the absence of amended efficiency 12 

## standards. DOE request comment on the fraction of 13 

## boilers at each standby and off mode efficiency 14 

## level. 15 

## Finally, any comments related to any 16 

## aspects of the life cycle and payback period 17 

## analysis. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: You see the request for 19 

## comment. Please take a peek there and see if there's 20 

## anything additional this time, and noting that your 21 

## written remarks will be very helpful to the 22 

## Department. Yes, Rick.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. MURPHY: Doug, I'm assuming that the 2 

## issue that I raised earlier about marginal prices is 3 

## covered under 4-20, even though it's not itemized out 4 

## in the previous ones. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: You'll have to refresh my 6 

## memory on the details, Rick. 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: It's the marginal price on 8 

## natural gas. Yes, we'll take comment on that. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Let's take a 10 

## break. When we resume, we will be picking up with 11 

## shipments. Let's see if we can make it more like 10 12 

## than 20 minutes, okay. It's now 10 minutes after 13 

## 3:00. Let's try and pick back up here about 20 14 

## minutes after. 15 

## (Whereupon, a short recess was taken at 16 

## 3:10 p.m.) 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks to all of you for 18 

## being back here in 10 minutes. That was great. Good 19 

## work. We're going to start with the shipment 20 

## analysis, and we're going to pick up the pace here a 21 

## tad to make sure we get through all this content. 22 

## And we really have done a lot already. There's moreThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## to go, so we're going to jump right on it. Victor. 2 

## MR. FRANCO: Welcome back. So, we're 3 

## going to start on the shipment analysis, and this is 4 

## Slide 101. 5 

## (Slide.) 6 

## MR. FRANCO: so, the purpose of shipment 7 

## analysis is to come up with the shipment between the 8 

## analysis period, 2020 to 2049. This is a major input 9 

## to the National Energy Savings MPV as well as the 10 

## manufacturer impact analysis, but it also has a major 11 

## impact on other inputs like we described lifetime, 12 

## for example and the base case efficiency 13 

## distributions. 14 

## So, the shipment projections are divided 15 

## by market segment, new construction, new owners and 16 

## replacements. Again, new owners include existing 17 

## buildings that acquired a boiler for the first time, 18 

## and also includes switching between the different 19 

## product classes, and we'll describe that in a little 20 

## bit detail next slides. 21 

## This analysis also includes the impact of 22 

## standards in terms of consumers purchasing --The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## repairing rather than replacing their residential 2 

## boiler. The analysis assumes the price elasticity 3 

## value and assumes that the consumer is influenced by 4 

## the purchase price and operating costs. 5 

## (Slide.) 6 

## MR. FRANCO: The next slide provides an 7 

## overview of the shipments model. So, the new 8 

## construction the two major inputs are new housing 9 

## starts and the average boiler saturation in the new 10 

## construction market. New owners is based on the 11 

## difference between the historical shipments that we 12 

## derived and the model shipment data. 13 

## Finally, replacements are a combination of 14 

## annual shipments and the retirement function, which 15 

## is based on the lifetime distribution that we 16 

## described earlier in chapter 8. 17 

## The replacement market also takes into 18 

## account shipments that are switching to new owners in 19 

## another product class and demolition, so building 20 

## that are no longer in the house stock. 21 

## (Slide.) 22 

## MR. FRANCO: The data sources for theseThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## inputs are available on this slide. We use Census 2 

## data and AOE 2013 historical data for housing and 3 

## commercial building square footage. New construction 4 

## saturations come from CBECS and RESC data as well as 5 

## new housing characteristics from Census data. 6 

## Shipments to new owners are estimated 7 

## based on 2008 to 2012 historical shipments compared 8 

## to the shipments model estimate. The new owners are 9 

## derived is the difference between historical 10 

## shipments and the model of new construction 11 

## replacement shipments. Most new owners are assumed 12 

## to switch between product classes. For hot water gas 13 

## boilers DOE assumed that the fraction are new owners 14 

## that are installing a new boiler in an existing 15 

## building did not have a boiler previously. That 16 

## fraction is 20 percent, and that's the fraction 17 

## that's being used in the LCC analysis. 18 

## The historical shipments we'll talk in 19 

## more detail, but we have taken into account appliance 20 

## magazine shipments from 1962 to 2008. We have been 21 

## getting AHRI shipments from 1970 to 2012. Recently, 22 

## we got a submittal from 2003 to 2012 shipments, andThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## we make several adjustments that we will go into 2 

## further detail in the next couple of slides. The 3 

## retirement function, as we described the lifetime, is 4 

## based on a 25-year average. 5 

## Finally, we calculate the fraction of 6 

## commercial ^^^^ shipments to commercial applications. 7 

## We already described this at 7 percent based on RECS 8 

## and CBECS. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Amy. 10 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Amy Shephard, AHRI. 11 

## And what price elasticity did you use and 12 

## what was the source of that? 13 

## MR. FRANCO: The price elasticity is 14 

## further described in Appendix 9A. It's based on 15 

## clothes washer and refrigerator data up to 2012, I 16 

## believe -- 1990 to 2002. I believe the price 17 

## elasticity value is 3.4. All the details are 18 

## provided in that appendix. 19 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Okay. 20 

## (Slide.) 21 

## MR. FRANCO: So, the next slide provides 22 

## an overview of the historical shipment. So, we justThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## wanted to provide kind of how we came up with our 2 

## shipments model. So now, all shipments that were 3 

## provided by AHRI have all the data historical 4 

## disaggregated by different boiler types. So, we had 5 

## to make some adjustments in order drive our 6 

## historical shipments. 7 

## First of all, the historical shipments 8 

## primarily consist of cast iron and steel from 9 

## Appliance Magazine and past AHRI submittals. They 10 

## did not include coil and tube type and high 11 

## efficiency condensing, except for the recent 12 

## submittal that AHRI provided, so for past data we had 13 

## to make some adjustments to take that into account. 14 

## In terms of high efficiency, we also took 15 

## into account Energy Star data since Energy Star 16 

## includes a little bit more manufacturers than AHRI 17 

## for the high condensing fraction. There are a number 18 

## of non-AHRI manufacturers, and we have an adjustment 19 

## for that. 20 

## Let me go into more details about -- I 21 

## won't go too much into this, but all the details are 22 

## here and they are also provided in chapter 9 inThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## Appendix 9B. Basically, we used the cast iron 2 

## shipments. We come up with a fraction for years that 3 

## we don't have this aggregated data. We come up with 4 

## fractions for years that are in between to come up 5 

## with cast iron shipments. 6 

## For other boiler type shipments, we have a 7 

## combination of sources. For steel boiler shipments 8 

## we do have some shipments data. For hot water gas 9 

## boilers, we based it on 1993 AHRI shipment data, and 10 

## it only accounted for 0.1 percent and that's what we 11 

## assumed for all years. For steel hot water, all 12 

## boilers we do have different estimates and we do an 13 

## estimate between 2010/2012 based on the linear trend 14 

## AHRI provided. 15 

## For coil-tube type shipments, we estimated 16 

## for historical shipments 7.2 percent fraction before 17 

## 2012, and AHRI provided data between 2003 and 2012. 18 

## For high efficiency condensing boilers we used the 19 

## data provided AHRI as well as some assumptions about 20 

## historical data for oil boilers. AHRI only provided 21 

## condensing for gas boilers number of shipments. 22 

## Finally, if you notice the equation aboveThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## has a multiple factor for adjustment for non-AHRI 2 

## shipments. So, based on the 2013 directory that 3 

## accounts for non-AHRI manufacturer models, we came up 4 

## with an estimate of 13.3 percent of hot water gas 5 

## boiler models are non-AHRI. We used this to estimate 6 

## manufacturers' shipments. We decrease this fraction 7 

## going backwards in time. So, we assume in 1980 that 8 

## fraction is zero percent. We'd appreciate any 9 

## comments on those. And for hot water oil boilers the 10 

## fraction is larger, it's 26.5 percent of shipments 11 

## are non-AHRI. 12 

## (Slide.) 13 

## MR. FRANCO: And the next slide provides 14 

## the overall historical and projected shipments. So, 15 

## take a look at this and comment. 16 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 17 

## Just as a question, did you reach out to 18 

## those non-AHRI manufacturers to provide shipment 19 

## information? 20 

## MR. FRANCO: No, we did not. 21 

## (Slide.) 22 

## MR. FRANCO: So, the next slide shows theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## shipment analysis based on the trial standard levels. 2 

## We'll discuss the trial standard levels in a few 3 

## slides from now, but this is based on the different 4 

## levels for all gas hot water boilers. 5 

## As you can see, the difference between the 6 

## base case, which is the blue line which kind of is at 7 

## the bottom row of this and the TSL5, which is the max 8 

## tech at the beginning there's about a 5 to 7 percent 9 

## decrease in shipments. That's to account for the 10 

## price elasticity repair versus replace. 11 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Question. Steve 12 

## Rosenstock, EEI. 13 

## So, even at max tech, you're showing no 14 

## difference in shipments after 2026? And you're 15 

## actually showing a possible increase in shipments 16 

## compared to the base case at max tech? That's what 17 

## the graphic kind of looks like. 18 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. You do see 19 

## a decrease up to about five or six years into the 20 

## standard. Those units will eventually need to be 21 

## replaced, so those units are then replaced during a 22 

## couple-year period and then after that it's veryThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## close. The shipments are very close. The assumption 2 

## is that the price elasticity kind of decreases over 3 

## time. The details are available in the appendix. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Victor, I'm confused by the 5 

## graphic. It looks as though, as of about 2030, all 6 

## you have -- all that I can see really -- maybe my 7 

## eyes are not working properly -- is TSO1 combined 8 

## with TSO. What's going on there? 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: They're all the same. 10 

## MR. FRANCO: They're basically the same. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 12 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 14 

## MS. SHEPHARD: This is Amy Shephard from 15 

## AHRI. 16 

## I have a question about what you just 17 

## said. You said that it assumes that the price 18 

## elasticity decreases over time? 19 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes. 20 

## MS. SHEPHARD: But you said that the -- 21 

## MR. FRANCO: The impact of the price 22 

## elasticity ^^^^ sorry -- the impact of the priceThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## elasticity. 2 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Okay. 3 

## (Slide.) 4 

## MR. FRANCO: This is just to request 5 

## comment on the shipments analysis. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 7 

## MR. STANONIK: This price elasticity 8 

## question, okay, you indicated right now you're using 9 

## information that comes from refrigerators and clothes 10 

## dryers, I think? 11 

## MR. FRANCO: And clothes washers. 12 

## MR. STANONIK: And clothes washers, okay. 13 

## And while I'm going to make the comment, and I don't 14 

## really know that we have the means to develop other 15 

## data, but I think it needs to be recognized that 16 

## you're dealing with products that to some extent are 17 

## bought either on their physical appeal or some 18 

## desired features. You know whether it's through the 19 

## door ice and whatever else, okay, and that is going 20 

## to affect the price elasticity. Okay. 21 

## On a boiler you know most people certainly 22 

## don't care very much what the boiler looks like,The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## although maybe the like certain colors, but otherwise 2 

## you know the only other thing they may be interested 3 

## in is the efficiency. And so I think you know 4 

## there's certainly a very -- you don't have this 5 

## consumer desire aspect when it comes to you know a 6 

## boiler. You know I want a refrigerator that does 7 

## this, or I want a washer that does this. They just 8 

## want a boiler. And so again, I'm not sure if we can 9 

## figure out how to give you a better number, but I 10 

## think you need to keep in mind that really you know 11 

## it's not a good fit. 12 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. We appreciate 13 

## that comment. And actually, if you look at the 14 

## request for comment, we are requesting comments and 15 

## any data or feedback would be really appreciated. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 17 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 18 

## Again, I'm looking back at Slide 84. You 19 

## don't have to go back. Just for the gas-fired hot 20 

## water boiler, the consumer price in 2013 in dollars 21 

## for the baseline is $2103 and for the max tech it's 22 

## $3923, so that's like you know an 80 percent priceThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## increase. And you're saying that shipments will only 2 

## drop about 5 percent when this happens with that kind 3 

## of price increase? 4 

## MR. FRANCO: So, this takes into the 5 

## operating cost savings and the incremental costs. 6 

## And obviously, it's based on this -- as Frank just 7 

## pointed out -- on this data that it's based on other 8 

## products. It might be different for heating 9 

## equipment. 10 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, one thing that 11 

## could be an analogy is you know -- well, the data 12 

## won't be in, but you know now with residential water 13 

## heaters if it's above 55 gallons you have to buy a 14 

## heat pump water heater, which is double the price of 15 

## a resistance water heater. I'd be shocked if 16 

## shipments went down by only 5 percent. Again, it 17 

## just seems counter-intuitive to me with that kind of 18 

## a price shock that there'd only be a 5 percent change 19 

## in shipments, so I'm very surprised. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Amy. 21 

## MS. SHEPHARD: It's a clarification on 22 

## just what you said where you said the impacted priceThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## of elasticity decreases over time. Can you explain 2 

## that? What would make it -- what would cause it to 3 

## change its impact over time? 4 

## MR. FRANCO: Could you repeat that? 5 

## MS. SHEPHARD: So, your question where you 6 

## said it's the impact of price elasticity that's 7 

## decreasing over time what do you mean by that? 8 

## MR. FRANCO: The impacts, so instead of 9 

## impacting a certain fraction -- so the price 10 

## elasticity assumes that there's a certain fraction of 11 

## installations that would be during this repair versus 12 

## replace. Over time that impact decreases. 13 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Why? 14 

## MR. FRANCO: Over time, people will be 15 

## installing this equipment. There'd be less pressure 16 

## to purchase like over six or more years. 17 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Well, I'm still not getting 18 

## that because price elasticity is measuring your 19 

## sensitivity to price changes, right, so what's 20 

## causing their sensitivity to price changes to 21 

## decrease over time? You're saying they'll take a 22 

## larger price increase for less you know reduction inThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## demand over time. So, what's changing the nature of 2 

## that? 3 

## MR. FRANCO: Well, you do have energy 4 

## price trends is one factor that's increasing over 5 

## time, so that would decrease the fraction. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: You can see the request for 7 

## comment boxes. Take a peek, see if there's anything 8 

## additional before we move on here. Anything 9 

## additional before we move on to NIA? 10 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 11 

## For 5.3, don't you think at max tech that 12 

## the higher -- a significantly higher percentage of 13 

## consumers would choose to repair? 14 

## MR. FRANCO: You mentioned something? 15 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: At max tech. If you went 16 

## to max tech, do you think that the percentage of 17 

## consumers that would want to repair would go up 18 

## significantly and that would have an impact on 19 

## shipments? 20 

## MR. FRANCO: This is based on -- this 21 

## methodology the numbers, yes. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, we're moving on toThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## initial impact analysis. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, I'm going to do my 3 

## civic duty and Victor a little bit of a break. I 4 

## think he's earned his pay today. And looking at the 5 

## clock, I think we need to kind of go through this 6 

## much more quickly. This is basically getting to the 7 

## end of what we do here. 8 

## So, the national energy savings is 9 

## basically is what we want to get out of this. You've 10 

## seen all the analyses, so now we bundle up the 11 

## efficiency levels and the TSLs and we propose it and 12 

## then we just crunch all the numbers to roll up what 13 

## you've seen on the macro level to the national level, 14 

## so that's basically what the MIA does. 15 

## (Slide.) 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: You could see on the next 17 

## slide we've taken all the different analyses that 18 

## Victor's described and Catherine and Adam have 19 

## described earlier, we throw them throw the 20 

## spreadsheets and we create a net present value of all 21 

## the costs and savings that accrue or maybe not accrue 22 

## to the consumer and get the net present value, whichThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## was discounted according to the OMB guidelines. 2 

## (Slide.) 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, on the next slide 4 

## here, you can see all the different data inputs that 5 

## go into the NIA. I won't read through all of these, 6 

## but you've heard about all of them earlier today. 7 

## So, what's important to create the impacts 8 

## is how the efficiency distribution changes once we 9 

## put the standard into place. Basically, you look at 10 

## the market before and after standards. You do a 11 

## bunch of arithmetic, multiply numbers together, and 12 

## over 30 years of shipments we come up with the NIA. 13 

## So, here you could see what the condensing market 14 

## share does in each of the cases. 15 

## So, then area graph here shows it by EL. 16 

## So, it's pretty intuitive you know if we pick the 17 

## higher EL with market share changes. And if you want 18 

## the actual percentages of each this slide will 19 

## through each product class and give you those 20 

## numbers. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 22 

## MR. STANONIK: Sorry, but well I certainlyThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## fall into the habit too often of kind of treating oil 2 

## secondary, but the slide you had on 107 do you or 3 

## could you prepare a similar slide of projected 4 

## shipments for oil hot water boilers at each level 5 

## because it's a hugely different situation when you 6 

## get to condensing oil-fired boiler and I think you 7 

## know it's not going to look like this at all I don't 8 

## think, just a request. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 10 

## MR. FRANCO: This is Victor Franco. 11 

## The one you're looking at what you're 12 

## looking for is figure 9.5.5 in chapter nine. 13 

## MR. STANONIK: Thanks. 14 

## (Slide.) 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, so let's get down to 16 

## the real business at hand, AFUE level. So, Slide 117 17 

## we're back on that slide. You could see the 18 

## Department has proposed TSL3 for AFUE levels, so 85, 19 

## 82, 86, 86. And we've heard your comments today 20 

## about your concerns. You know we focused a lot on 21 

## the 85, so we've heard those concerns. And again, in 22 

## your written comments it would be nice to expand uponThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## what you've said here today. Also, any data you want 2 

## to provide through the NDAs that would be very much 3 

## appreciated as well. 4 

## (Slide.) 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Then standby and off mode, 6 

## so here's it's TSL3. You know Amy was talking about 7 

## you know we bundled a bunch of the worse case 8 

## scenarios together to get a number, so here you could 9 

## see that the reduction from that number in terms of 10 

## the watts isn't very big. So, you'll get an 11 

## allowance of say 9 watts on TSL3. 12 

## Then the next series of slides are just 13 

## going to show a bunch of numbers about energy 14 

## savings, MPVs for the AFUE and the standby mode. I 15 

## am not going to go through these at all, in detail. 16 

## You could read them at your leisure. The basic 17 

## conclusion here is that the proposal itself is 18 

## technologically feasible and economically justified 19 

## with our analysis. And so, again, we're happy to 20 

## take comment on all aspects of what we've done here. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, John. 22 

## MR. RODA: John Roda of Burnham Holdings.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## Just real quick, John, on page 17 to 25 of 2 

## the NOPR it talks about in the national impact 3 

## section that you know a significant amount of energy 4 

## will be saved and that's significant amount of energy 5 

## is further defined as six-tenths of 1 percent. Now, 6 

## how do you reconcile that, which seems almost like 7 

## statistically insignificant, with what you're trying 8 

## to show us here? 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This goes back, I think, 10 

## to the P-Tax rule, right? 11 

## MR. RODA: To the what? 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: A rule we did on P-Tax and 13 

## I think a subject of a lawsuit. My lawyer is looking 14 

## at me funny, but it's before my time. 15 

## MR. STAS: I think somewhere mentioned in 16 

## the NOPR there should be a citation of a court case. 17 

## I think it was Harrington case. And the courts 18 

## helped us define what a significant amount of energy 19 

## is and it says any amount that's not genuinely 20 

## trivial. So, we grapple with that, but here you can 21 

## see instead of looking at it in terms of a 22 

## percentage, which sounds very, very small, look onThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## the charts here on say page 119, 120 you're seeing 2 

## almost two-tenths of a quad of energy, so that's an 3 

## absolute value, which is a good chunk of energy to be 4 

## savings. So, I wouldn't necessarily focus strictly 5 

## on percentages. 6 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 7 

## That's a cumulative value over 30 years. 8 

## Correct? 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: That's correct. 10 

## MR. STAS: Yes. 11 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Including the full field 13 

## cycle savings. 14 

## (Slide.) 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, again, a couple of 16 

## requests for comments here. And basically, we ask 17 

## for comment on any and all aspects of the analysis at 18 

## this point. 19 

## (Slide.) 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, the next slide is 21 

## the RIA, so the Regulatory Impact Analysis. So, an 22 

## Executive Order instructs DOE to look at other meansThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## besides setting a standard that could be used in lieu 2 

## of a standard or minimum standards as a means to save 3 

## energy and could it save equal or more energy 4 

## relative to the standards. 5 

## So, we looked at six different things 6 

## here. And looking at these, we found that none of 7 

## these options provided the greater or equal amount of 8 

## energy savings. So, you could see more of that in 9 

## chapter 17 of the TSD. 10 

## Okay, so I know I went through that quick, 11 

## but it's really mostly just a lot of numbers to look 12 

## at. What's more important you got a real detailed 13 

## look at how we got to these numbers. And so, at this 14 

## point we're going to talk about the manufacturer 15 

## impact analysis, and we're going to pass it over to 16 

## Andrew. 17 

## MR. ALLEN: Thanks John. My name is 18 

## Andrew Allen. I work with Navigant, and I will try 19 

## to quickly take us through the manufacturer impact 20 

## analysis slides. 21 

## (Slide.) 22 

## MR. ALLEN: So, the primary purpose of theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MIA is to assess the impacts of amended standards on 2 

## residential boiler manufacturers, but we also try to 3 

## identify and estimate the impacts of amended 4 

## standards on any subgroups of manufacturers that may 5 

## be disproportionately impacted by standards, such as 6 

## small business. And we also try to examine the 7 

## impact of amended standards on direct employment, 8 

## manufacturer capacity, and the cumulative regulatory 9 

## burden faced by the industry. 10 

## And the primary tool used in the MIA is 11 

## the government regulatory impact model or GRIM, which 12 

## is a cash flow model that helps us quantitatively 13 

## assess amended standards potential impacts on the 14 

## industry, and the key output of this model is 15 

## industry net present value or INPV. And DOE also 16 

## conducts interviews with manufacturers to refine GRIM 17 

## inputs and try to better understand the industry. 18 

## So, the MIA is conducted in three phases. 19 

## In Phase 1, we try to build an industry profile from 20 

## publicly available information, such as Census data 21 

## and SEC filings, manufacturer websites, product 22 

## listing databases and we try to identify anyThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## important issues that require additional 2 

## consideration throughout the analysis. 3 

## In Phase 2, we build the GRIM using 4 

## publicly available data and inputs from the 5 

## engineering and shipping analyses. And in Phase 3, 6 

## we try to verify our key inputs to the GRIM during 7 

## manufacturer interviews and evaluate any subgroups 8 

## that may be disproportionately impacted. 9 

## So, during the manufacturer interviews 10 

## conducted by DOE, manufacturers raised concern on 11 

## four broad topics. First, the standard necessitating 12 

## condensing technology could disrupt the replacement 13 

## market in which most boilers are sold. Manufacturers 14 

## argued this market is structured around legacy 15 

## venting and distribution systems that are not 16 

## designed for condensing products. 17 

## Second, a standard necessitating 18 

## condensing technology can impact the vertically 19 

## integrated structure of the industry, which could 20 

## impact manufacturers' profitability and manufacturing 21 

## jobs. 22 

## Third, manufacturers raised concern aboutThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## the ability of condensing units to perform as rated 2 

## in the field and meet the heat distribution 3 

## requirements of their installations. 4 

## And finally, manufacturers raised concern 5 

## about the durability and reliability of condensing 6 

## boilers relative to lower efficiency boilers. 7 

## And DOE considered these and other issues 8 

## throughout its analyses and all of these issues are 9 

## related to a standard with condensing efficiency 10 

## levels, which DOE is not proposing today; however, it 11 

## sounds like from some of the comments we heard the 12 

## legacy venting issues are still pertinent. 13 

## So, as I mentioned previously, the MIA 14 

## uses an industry capsule model to quantify the 15 

## impacts of amended standards on manufacturers. It's 16 

## a model the industry we rely on content from several 17 

## of the analyses that we've already discussed today, 18 

## including the MTA, manufacturer production costs from 19 

## engineering analysis, and the shipments forecast from 20 

## the shipments analysis. 21 

## And to complete the model, we supplement 22 

## our estimates of manufacturer markups and industryThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## conversion costs, so for the purposes of the GRIM, 2 

## DOE modeled two markup scenarios to capture a range 3 

## of potential impacts on the industry. The first is 4 

## the preservation of gross margins markup scenario. 5 

## And in this scenario, manufacturers are able to pass 6 

## through all additional costs due to compliance to 7 

## their consumers. 8 

## And the second markup scenario we modeled 9 

## is the preservation of operating profit scenario. 10 

## And in this scenario manufacturers are not able to 11 

## garner any additional operating profit from increased 12 

## cost due to compliance; however, to maintain the same 13 

## operating profit in the standards case as in the base 14 

## case. 15 

## In the preservation of gross margin 16 

## scenario represents the upper bound of INPV impacts, 17 

## while the preservation of operating profits 18 

## represents the lower bound of impacts. 19 

## So, for the purposes of the GRIM, DOE also 20 

## models industry conversion costs. DOE estimates two 21 

## types of conversions costs. Capital conversion costs 22 

## being one-time investments in property equipmentThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## necessitated by standards, product conversion costs 2 

## being one-time investments in research and 3 

## development testing, marketing, and any other 4 

## non-capitalized costs. The efficiency levels 5 

## proposed in TSL DOE developed an average capital 6 

## conversion and product conversion estimate per 7 

## manufacturer for each product class based on market 8 

## share weighted feedback from manufacturers and 9 

## applied these averages to the entire industry. 10 

## And at TSL3, DOE estimated that the 11 

## industry would incur approximately .9 million dollars 12 

## in capital conversion costs and approximately $3.38 13 

## million in production conversion costs. 14 

## (Slide.) 15 

## MR. ALLEN: So, now that we've discussed 16 

## the inputs to the MIA, here we display the INPV 17 

## results of the GRIM by TSL. The results are 18 

## displayed as ranges in the first two rows, and the 19 

## ranges represent the results from the lower and upper 20 

## bound markup scenarios. At TSL3, DOE estimates the 21 

## impacts on INPV will range from a decrease of 22 

## approximately 2.1 percent to an increase of .2The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## percent. 2 3 

## (Slide.) 4 

## MR. ALLEN: So, as I previously mentioned, 5 

## DOE conducts separate analyses on subgroups that 6 

## could be disproportionately impacted by standards. 7 

## DOE identified small businesses as a potential 8 

## subgroup and conducted a separate analysis. 9 

## And as part of this analysis, DOE 10 

## identified 13 companies meeting the Small Business 11 

## Administration's definition of a small business 12 

## covered by this rulemaking, nine of which are 13 

## manufacturers and four of which are private labelers. 14 

## In the table on this slide, we show DOE's 15 

## estimates of conversion costs for the average, large, 16 

## and small manufacturer as well conversion costs as a 17 

## percentage of EBIT and revenue for the average, 18 

## small, and large manufacturer over the conversion 19 

## period. 20 

## DOE estimates that the average, small, and 21 

## large manufacturer will experience similar conversion 22 

## costs and have to convert a similar percentage ofThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## their products. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 3 

## MR. HAINLEY: Gary Hainley, U.S. Boilers. 4 

## Could you explain the cutoff between large 5 

## and small manufacturers? Could you define them? 6 

## MR. ALLEN: Yes. So, the SBA lays out 7 

## their size standards based on NAECA's codes, so the 8 

## NAECA code for boilers the cutoff is 500 employees or 9 

## less. So, any entity with 500 employees or less, 10 

## including all -- you know including the parent 11 

## company, including any subsidiaries would qualify as 12 

## a small business. 13 

## MS. SHEPHARD: This is Amy Shephard at 14 

## AHRI. 15 

## And how many total manufacturers did you 16 

## determine were in the market? 17 

## MR. ALLEN: Total, we believe there are 36 18 

## that sell covered products in the U.S. 19 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Okay. Thanks. 20 

## MR. ALLEN: Sure. 21 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Question real quick. You 22 

## said there are 36. How many domestic and how manyThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## are based overseas? 2 

## MR. ALLEN: I could get that number for 3 

## you. I don't have it off the top of my head, though. 4 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 5 

## Okay. And I'm just kind of curious, when 6 

## you discussed with the manufacturers what is the risk 7 

## of outsources as a result of the standards, different 8 

## levels? 9 

## MR. ALLEN: The general feedback we got 10 

## back was that you know at non-condensing levels there 11 

## wasn't much just because of shipping consideration. 12 

## The feedback we got back at condensing levels was you 13 

## know heat exchangers could probably be sourced from 14 

## overseas. 15 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Paul. 17 

## MR. SOHLER: Just a comment, they are 18 

## sourced, by and large, from overseas. It's not a 19 

## matter of could today. That's where almost all of 20 

## them in the residential world come from. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 22 

## MR. ALLEN: So, DOE also analyzed theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## proposed standby and off mode standards in the GRIM 2 

## and these standards were analyzed independently from 3 

## the AFUE standards we discussed previously. 4 

## And the GRIM incorporated incremental 5 

## additions to the manufacturer production costs 6 

## resulting from the technology options for reducing 7 

## electricity consumption discussed in the engineering 8 

## analysis. And DOE estimates that overall impacts on 9 

## INPV at the proposed TSL will be smaller than the 10 

## AFUE standards. 11 

## (Slide.) 12 

## MR. ALLEN: And so, we're requesting 13 

## comment on the number of small manufacturers and on 14 

## the potential impacts of the amended standards on 15 

## small manufacturers, also on our conversion costs 16 

## estimates and the key drivers of those conversion 17 

## costs, and any other aspects of the MIA. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: No additional comments 19 

## here? 20 

## (No response.) 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, this is John fromThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## DOE. I'm going to bring us down the home stretch, 2 

## talk about the environmental impacts of emissions. 3 

## So, as I mentioned in the NIA, we look at 4 

## the full fuel cycle emissions reductions or increases 5 

## in some circumstances to the proposed standard. Full 6 

## fuel cycle includes all the upstream emissions that 7 

## could occur from extraction and transportation of the 8 

## fuels that are used in generation, for example. We 9 

## look at the marginal power plant emissions for CO2, 10 

## nitrogen oxidize, sulfur dioxide, and mercury, and 11 

## that comes from the AEO. We will update it with AEO 12 

## 2015, as appropriate. 13 

## We look at site combustion emissions for 14 

## CO2, NOX, SO2, methane, et cetera, and we use some 15 

## emissions factors developed by EPA and used in their 16 

## rulemaking. The FFC upstream emissions has been 17 

## developed out at the lab by Katie Coughlin and 18 

## there's a cite to the paper there, but basically you 19 

## know what the National Academy of Science has 20 

## directed DOE to do is to look at all the potential 21 

## upstream emissions savings from the standards. 22 

## (Slide.)The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: The next slide shows the 2 

## actual results here for emissions reductions or 3 

## increases in the case of mercury, and then on the 4 

## bottom chart you could see the estimates for the 5 

## standby and off mode. 6 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 7 

## Electric Institute. 8 

## Just a quick comment based on these 9 

## slides, for mercury is that a thousand tons or just 10 

## tons? The reason I ask is when I look at AEO 2015, 11 

## Table A8 that in terms of electric power sector 12 

## emissions in 2013 for mercury the number was 27.94 13 

## tons. So, I mean you're saying .001 you're saying 14 

## that it's going to increase by one ton or a reduction 15 

## of three tons over 30 years when overall -- again, if 16 

## we're going from 11 to 8 watts, when overall for the 17 

## U.S. for you know like 3.8 trillion kilowatt hours 18 

## it's 27.9 tons. I believe that might be off by a 19 

## factor of a thousand in terms of the impacts. I'm 20 

## looking at this table. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, you're comparing one 22 

## year versus 30 years of shipments, right?The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 3 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: And also in that regard, 4 

## because of the mercury rule, looking at Table 8 of 5 

## the AEO, they basically by 2020 the mercury emissions 6 

## are going to down from 27.94 tons per year down to 7 

## 6.58 tons per year, so that about a 21 ton reduction 8 

## per year, starting -- following 2016, but I'll just 9 

## say 2020. 10 

## So, over that 30-year period, that's a 600 11 

## ton reduction versus you know -- well, possibly this 12 

## one ton increase, which I don't believe, but again, 13 

## because the EPA rules and regulations that anything 14 

## showing an increase really just -- you know, again, 15 

## looking at national impacts, ignoring all these other 16 

## factors that are going on in the marketplace you're 17 

## showing as incremental, but I never see anything in 18 

## the reports, TSD, or the rules that say, well, here's 19 

## what's happening nationally with emissions. 20 

## They're going down significantly and it 21 

## never seems to come out in the reports. I believe 22 

## that it should -- some of these things should beThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## discussed because there is big national trends that 2 

## are totally overwhelming any incremental increases 3 

## estimated from these rules. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, it is regular tons and 5 

## not thousands. So, thank you for that. 6 

## So, these are reductions relative to the 7 

## baseline, so I think regardless of what is going on 8 

## in the baseline what we're just trying capture is 9 

## relative to that declining baseline, as you say, we 10 

## think we can save a little bit more, so that's what 11 

## that number represents. It takes into account the 12 

## trends from the AEO. 13 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 14 

## But it's an 80 percent reduction within a 15 

## couple of years, so wouldn't that reduce this by 80 16 

## percent? 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No, the baseline is the 18 

## baseline, so we're just looking at the change from 19 

## that baseline. So, if you're got two declining -- 20 

## it's two lines that are declining, just one's lower 21 

## than the other. 22 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, Steve Rosenstock,The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## EEI. 2 

## I appreciate that the ones incrementally 3 

## are different, but the overall trend is a huge 4 

## reduction so that, again, it's still -- this is 5 

## within the noise of the noise maybe, and so it's not 6 

## going to have any -- and in my mind you're talking 7 

## about -- you get to the monetization later, but in 8 

## terms of national impact it's so small that it's not 9 

## going to be really seen on a national basis, in my 10 

## view. 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. What we're showing 12 

## is the impact from the proposed rule, and that's what 13 

## it is. The baseline's doing what it is without our 14 

## rule. 15 

## (Slide.) 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, so we just had some 17 

## comments from Steve. Anyone else has comments on 18 

## that up to this point; otherwise, we'll go towards 19 

## the monetization. 20 

## (Slide.) 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, there was an 22 

## interagency process that's been developed over theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## past several years in an effort to capture the 2 

## monetary value of emissions, so you can see the 3 

## numbers here, but you know the big one here is CO2. 4 

## We just use the values that the interagency process 5 

## has directed us to us, so it's basic arithmetic. We 6 

## have our ton reductions and we multiply by these 7 

## numbers to get the total reduction in terms of 8 

## dollars. And so, on this next slide you could see 9 

## the monetization of that. So, the range for CO2 is 10 

## up to a billion, just over a billion in the proposed 11 

## level and then, of course, much smaller for the 12 

## standby and off mode. 13 

## And so that's it. 14 

## MS. SHEPHARD: This is Amy Shephard. 15 

## I actually have a comment on that. So, 16 

## could you clarify exactly how the monetization of the 17 

## social costs of carbon, other than the full fuel 18 

## cycle is used in the statutory analysis? So, is it 19 

## part of the seven factors of the economic 20 

## justification or is it considered as energy savings? 21 

## How was this actually used in the analysis? 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, in the NOPR you couldThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## see the tables. We show the numbers with and without 2 

## the monetization. 3 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Which table are you talking 4 

## about? 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: It's right up in the 6 

## front. 7 

## MS. SHEPHARD: So, 1.6? 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 9 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Okay, so I had a question 10 

## about that table because it says that this is the 11 

## national economic benefits, but as we know, this 12 

## number is not national, it's global. And then, it 13 

## has the consumer operating cost savings. It has the 14 

## consumer installed cost, but it doesn't have the 15 

## manufacturer costs or the decrease in the industry 16 

## net present value in it. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So, the consumer 18 

## cost so we're reflecting the cost to the consumer, so 19 

## the way the cost recovery was flowed to the consumer 20 

## is how that's picked up. 21 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Right. But the table is 22 

## summary of national economic benefits and costs. So,The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## I think when you present this analysis it should have 2 

## the cost to manufacturers in it. I mean they're part 3 

## of the national economic benefits in costs. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, to the extent that 5 

## they recover those costs over the analysis period I 6 

## think you'd be double counting. 7 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 8 

## And again, she brings up a very good point 9 

## because, as you see, in terms of the total net 10 

## benefits that CO2 value at $40.5 per ton is added in 11 

## as a total net benefit, including emissions 12 

## reductions to monetized value. So, if you look at 13 

## the monetized value at $40.5 per ton, which is kind 14 

## of the -- I'll say the mid-case is kind of what they 15 

## used -- it's .37 billion dollars and that's used for 16 

## the 7 percent and the 3 percent overall net benefit. 17 

## So, they basically -- that monetized CO2 value that 18 

## consumers will never see is 50 percent of that 7 19 

## percent discount rate total net benefit. 20 

## As I recall, that because the discount 21 

## rate for CO2 is locked at 3 percent that's used in 22 

## both benefit totals there. Correct? For example, atThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## 7 percent the operating costs is .64 billion dollars 2 

## and then you subtract the .29 billion dollars of 3 

## incremental and stolen costs. That's about .35 4 

## billion and you get a .74 by adding in the .37 from 5 

## the CO2 and the .01 from the NOX and there might be 6 

## some rounding in there as well. 7 

## So, based on that, the monetized value of 8 

## the emissions reductions is 50 percent of the total 9 

## net benefits shown at the 7 percent discount rate if 10 

## I'm doing my numbers correctly. Again, there might 11 

## be some rounding errors here or there because of you 12 

## know the last decimal place there after the -- like 13 

## before a decimal place there might be some rounding 14 

## issues, but that's how it's shown in the report and 15 

## that's how it's presented to the public; but that is 16 

## what's being shown. 17 

## And again, one of the issues that I raised 18 

## before is that in certain parts of the country, in 19 

## New England under the Regional Greenhouse Gas 20 

## Emissions of California, their AB32, there are market 21 

## prices for CO2 for electricity that are part of the 22 

## price and in the Reggie area I believe it was aboutThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## $3.50 during the last auction, as I recall. And in 2 

## California, I believe the value was about $11 per 3 

## ton. Those are market prices that are actually 4 

## included in the electric rates that people see that 5 

## will be -- that consumers will see if they reduce 6 

## some of their electricity rates, and this is added on 7 

## top of that when you get right down to it. Thank 8 

## you. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you. Well, I'm just 10 

## looking at the table, and if we exclude all the 11 

## emissions for the moment, the consumer operating cost 12 

## savings at 7 percent is .64 and the incremental cost 13 

## is .92, okay. 14 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Well, then that's the chart 15 

## of consumer benefits. It's not a chart of the 16 

## national economic benefits and costs. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm just pointing out that 18 

## the rule to consumers without any emissions 19 

## monetization is still a positive economic benefit, 20 

## all I'm saying, but thank you for the other comments. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments on the 22 

## emissions and the monetization.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, our last two analyses 2 

## to discuss are the utility impact analysis and the 3 

## indirect employment. So, for this one the purpose 4 

## here is to look at the impacts of the installed 5 

## capacity and generation on electric utilities. We 6 

## used MEMS BT, which is out at the lab, and we look at 7 

## the AEO forecast. We look at the change in the total 8 

## generation, the primary fuel mix, and the installed 9 

## capacity. And so, chapter 15 of the TSD has more 10 

## information on that. 11 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 12 

## Electric Institute. 13 

## Again, I will ask that -- you know you're 14 

## looking at an upstream analysis, but you're ignoring 15 

## any sort of upstream analysis on gas or fuel oil 16 

## production when that's going to be the primary impact 17 

## of the rulemaking. I find that rather -- I'm sorry. 18 

## To me, it's an incomplete analysis. And then when 19 

## I'm looking at chapter 15 showing that there's 20 

## actually going to be an increase in coal-fired power 21 

## plant -- that there's going to be an increase in 22 

## capacity of coal-fired power plants I just find thatThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## kind of hard to believe based on current trends and 2 

## the EPA's rule that's going to be coming out in June 3 

## or July because that is going to have significant 4 

## impact on what's going to happen with power plant 5 

## installations and existing power plants in the U.S. 6 

## I understand why you're doing this, but 7 

## it's still -- it just seems to be ignoring what's 8 

## happening with EPA and some of these assumptions in 9 

## terms of increased, especially cold-fired power 10 

## plants just don't seem realistic to me. I'm sorry. 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: These were based on AEO 12 

## 2013, so obviously the landscape's changed since then 13 

## and if and when EPA finalizes a power plant rule and 14 

## that become part of the AEO forecast we will pick it 15 

## up in all of our -- 16 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 17 

## The only problem is AEO 2015 is out. The 18 

## rule comes out in July, so the next version of AEO 19 

## won't come out until either December -- the earlier 20 

## version might come out until December, but the next 21 

## official version of AEO won't come out until next 22 

## spring. And again, the proposed rule is a 30 percentThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## reduction in carbon based on 2012. That's going to 2 

## be a huge impact on what's happening with power 3 

## plants over the next several years, so I don't know 4 

## how you -- this affects all rules, obviously. 5 

## Again, it may be just another sensitivity 6 

## analysis, but obviously that rule is so huge and just 7 

## in terms of upstream electricity that all these other 8 

## projections have to be totally changed because 9 

## everything is going to change come June or July when 10 

## EPA comes out with that final rule. 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you for that 12 

## comment. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Rick. 14 

## MR. MURPHY: Yes, I don't believe it would 15 

## be relative to this particular rule, but if there was 16 

## a standard that had an impact on the pressure 17 

## requirements for gas appliances that would be needed 18 

## would that be included in here? The delivered 19 

## pressure to the home or the business would have to be 20 

## upgraded in order to serve that new appliance. Would 21 

## that be part of this analysis? 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, maybe clarify what youThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## mean. So, some other government agency comes out 2 

## with a rule about a pressure requirement? 3 

## MR. MURPHY: No, no, no for an appliance, 4 

## a gas appliance under a new standard if it required a 5 

## certain level of pressure to the home that didn't 6 

## exist today and the system had to be upgraded, the 7 

## natural gas system would that be accounted for in 8 

## this section here? 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We'd have to think about 10 

## that, I think 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Paul. 12 

## MR. SOHLER: As much as I would like to 13 

## throw that rock at this, I can't do it. I think, by 14 

## and large, you know the pressure requirements for 15 

## higher efficiency equipment have not gone up. If 16 

## anything, they've gone down. 17 

## MR. MURPHY: Rick Murphy, AGA. 18 

## I'm not suggesting that this rule would in 19 

## this analysis. I was just curious if something like 20 

## that would be considered in this part of the 21 

## analysis. 22 

## MR. SOHLER: Paul, thank you for theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## clarity. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. Are there 3 

## additional comments on utility impact analysis? 4 

## (No response.) 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing there? Okay. 6 

## (Slide.) 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. And I think our 8 

## last technical slide talks about indirect employment 9 

## impact analysis. So, the idea here is that if 10 

## consumers have extra money in their pockets due to 11 

## saving monthly energy bills some of that money would 12 

## flow back through the economy in the form of other 13 

## purchases, and so this is the idea that the macro 14 

## economy could improve just because there's more goods 15 

## and services being purchased with that extra money 16 

## and so, you can read about that as well in the TSD, 17 

## but that's the general theory on that slide. 18 

## And so, with that, we've come to the end 19 

## and so we're -- 20 

## MS. SHEPHARD: Actually, I had one 21 

## question on the employment. On the indirect impacts 22 

## to employment in the NOPR, it says that it limits itThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## to the year 2025 because of the uncertainties in it; 2 

## yet, when you look at the social cost of carbon 3 

## there's all kinds of statements about the 4 

## uncertainties of that and it goes out past the year 5 

## 2100. So, why is it that in some areas of DOE's 6 

## analysis there are limitations on the measurements on 7 

## the costs and benefits and in other areas they're so 8 

## much broader? 9 

## And going back to the Tables 1.5 and 1.6, 10 

## it says the same thing. It says that some of the 11 

## benefits to the consumers go beyond 2049, but why? I 12 

## mean if they were going to measure the benefits to 13 

## them going beyond 2049, then we should also be 14 

## including the repair costs and other things that are 15 

## going to them. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We look at 30 years of 17 

## shipments in the analysis, and so it's everything 18 

## that purchased through that 30th year. I don't know 19 

## about the repair -- the repair cost goes out as well. 20 

## So, we stop the shipments after 30th years and 21 

## everything associated with those shipments is 22 

## captured in the cost, including the repair.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## MS. SHEPHARD: I would suggest that that 2 

## one be clarified then in the rule because it 3 

## currently says only benefits are included. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So, now we're 6 

## at the point where we are eliciting any final 7 

## remarks, any closing comments from members present 8 

## and we'll take those now. 9 

## MR. WEISS: Yes, this is Corey Weiss with 10 

## Field Controls. Thank you. 11 

## Obviously, a tremendous effort went into 12 

## producing the technical support document and it's 13 

## going to probably take an equal effort to have a 14 

## reasonable review and response, but I wanted to take 15 

## a step back from the numbers. Frankly, it got 16 

## numbing there towards the end. And I want to repeat 17 

## some things that I've heard today and have read and 18 

## then maybe add a few new things or just a new or 19 

## different perspective; but in listening to 20 

## everything, for me what my take aways the boiler is 21 

## part of a system. It's not like a stand-alone thing 22 

## that we just say you are now 85 and be gone. It'sThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## part of a system. 2 

## You know it is covered to some extent in 3 

## the NOPR in the technical support document, but I 4 

## don't think it's received as much emphasis as it 5 

## really should. You know 90 percent of the boiler 6 

## sales are replacement. The new construction, new 7 

## owners I'm having a hard time conceiving of anyone 8 

## that's going to change their hot water distribution 9 

## unless it's old house and they're basically tearing 10 

## it down and building a new one, so you have that 11 

## finite, that constraint of the hot water distribution 12 

## system. 13 

## And the NOPR even indicates that you know 14 

## that really negates going condensing because you're 15 

## not going to see the efficiency that a condensing 16 

## boiler in a brand new installation designed for that 17 

## type of equipment is going to deliver, so I agree 18 

## with the Department in not going to that level. 19 

## As far as the 85 versus 82, and then one 20 

## of the other things I want to touch on is the 21 

## directory, because that's been kind of boon and a 22 

## bane throughout these rulemakings that I'veThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## participated in. 85 percent there's a reason that 2 

## the industry is pushing back. They already have this 3 

## equipment, so this isn't like electric vehicles or 4 

## something where this mandate comes down and now 5 

## energy has to somehow pull a rabbit out of their hat. 6 

## They have these pieces of equipment already. 7 

## So, it's not like they don't want to sell 8 

## these boilers, but when you look at the installation, 9 

## these replacement installations they don't want to 10 

## sell these boilers in certain installations. That 11 

## doesn't mean that an 85 percent boiler is unsafe, but 12 

## there's a lot of installations where it starts to get 13 

## rather fuzzy and the industry doesn't want to go 14 

## there. So, I'm going to play the safety card because 15 

## that's really what we're talking about. And I 16 

## respected the numbers, the effort, everything that 17 

## went into it. 18 

## The averaging and annualizing the costs 19 

## I'd like to know where I can get my boiler repaired 20 

## and only pay $46 over 20 years for that repair, but 21 

## that is what it is. It comes down to safety. And 22 

## you know I heard comments about contractors. We'veThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## all had work done on our home. I assume you know we 2 

## all have a home or an apartment, wherever we live 3 

## we've had to have work done. 4 

## We've seen good contractors and we've seen 5 

## bad contractors. We've heard horror stories and 6 

## we've had people you know just swear that this is the 7 

## greatest guy. You got have him come out and do it 8 

## for you. So, I'm going to agree with the Department. 9 

## I'm going to assume that all contractors are 10 

## conscientious and they want to do a good just. So, 11 

## why can't we trust them to make the right decision 12 

## over this product offering that already exist as to 13 

## what is best for the customer? You know if that 14 

## customer has a short chimney and you know short run 15 

## to the chimney and they can put an 85 in and it's 16 

## good and they're out there, but if we now have a 17 

## boiler that was sitting in the middle, going up the 18 

## middle you know in a row house and now we got to 19 

## somehow get to the outside wall and go through all 20 

## the gyrations to do that you're increasing the odds 21 

## of that turn out well. 22 

## And I think you know this is the lastThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## thing I'll say on it is that this is the thing with 2 

## the directory. It's kind of a two-edged sword. You 3 

## know the marketing departments at the various 4 

## manufacturers they just love to you know push stuff, 5 

## come up with stuff, then the engineers or the 6 

## technical people now have to live with that. And you 7 

## know I'm just -- it's hard to come up with numbers. 8 

## It's a sensitive subject, you know, liability, 9 

## safety. 10 

## You know no one's going to come out and 11 

## say you know 85 percent of the contractors are like 12 

## bozos and they're putting in like death machines. No 13 

## one's going to say that. And yet, at the same time 14 

## there's this you know reservation about saying you 15 

## know some of these things, but that's what's at the 16 

## root of this reservation on the industry to just go 17 

## to 85. Yes, there's 65 percent, 85 percent boilers 18 

## in the directory and all. You know clearly they make 19 

## them. They can sell them. There's a reason that 20 

## they want to in every case. 21 

## And the problem I have with the 85 22 

## percent, and then I'm going to stand down, is rightThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## now the contractor can look at each installation, 2 

## each job and make a decision based on those set of 3 

## circumstances on what the best appliance is for that 4 

## customer and for that -- you know the best because 5 

## they want to put in the best job they can. If you're 6 

## now taking away that option where now they have to 7 

## put in 85 percent no matter what, they have no 8 

## leeway, they got to this. Now, I guess they could go 9 

## condensing, but again, you're painting yourself in a 10 

## corner because the distribution system is going to 11 

## undermine whatever you're trying to do for raising 12 

## the efficiency. 13 

## So, I wanted to say that after listening 14 

## to a lot of good comments and really a lot of work 15 

## that went into this document, but I really feel that 16 

## the industry is -- they're not digging in their 17 

## heels. They're really showing their concern for all 18 

## of us. You know certainly all of us that have a 19 

## boiler and wanting to not do something that could 20 

## negatively impact their customers. You know one 21 

## wants to get sued, but I'll tell you what, I'm in the 22 

## same as with Gary and Paul in this, and nobody wantsThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## to be associated with a product or an install that 2 

## someone died. And I've been to enough death cases 3 

## you know where people have died and nobody wants 4 

## that. 5 

## So, I just wanted to bring that kind of 6 

## back in because after many hours of numbers this is 7 

## really about people and making sure that when all of 8 

## us go home what we go home to is something that our 9 

## families -- you know we're going to get up the next 10 

## day because I've been in installs where the Christmas 11 

## tree is still up and the presents are there and the 12 

## people died two days before and I don't want us to 13 

## lose sight of that you know as we look at these 14 

## numbers and the dollars and cents of the thing. 15 

## You know, ultimately, all of us have stuff 16 

## in our home that we're trusting is -- you know is 17 

## safe. So, I can't say what that number should be. I 18 

## defer to my industry colleagues on that, whether it 19 

## should be 83, whether it shouldn't change, but my 20 

## sense is is that 85 and 84 are -- you know they're 21 

## cause for concern and I think that that should really 22 

## be taken into account here, along with all the otherThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## you know factors that go into this decision. Thank 2 

## you for your time. 3 

## MR. SOHLER: Paul Sohler, Crown Boiler. 4 

## I want to touch base real quick on one 5 

## thing and then ask a question. Number one, when we 6 

## went through the manufacturing impact analysis, it 7 

## kind of passed us by before we got our ducks in a row 8 

## to share our thoughts on that. 9 

## I think we are convinced that if the 10 

## minimum gas boiler, water boiler efficiency goes to 11 

## 85 that it's going to have a significant negative 12 

## affect on our ability to keep our foundry running, 13 

## which you know relies -- for those to be economically 14 

## viable they need to be running at full capacity most 15 

## of the time. So, to the extent that going to 85 -- 16 

## and again, tying back into what Corey said, you know 17 

## do, to a large extent, have a market that's 18 

## stratified right now in the 82/83 range and then 19 

## condensing. 20 

## So, to the extent that that 85 pushes 21 

## people up into the condensing range it will cost 22 

## American jobs and not only will it drive -- have aThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## negative impact on the foundry, but it also is going 2 

## to have the impact of driving up the costs of some of 3 

## the other classes that are made out of cast iron 4 

## where all those fixed costs need to be spread out 5 

## over the gas steam boilers and you know oil boilers 6 

## and other types. So, there's a very definite, major 7 

## economic impact and it's going to I think have an 8 

## impact, have a tendency to ship jobs out of the 9 

## country. 10 

## And the last question I have, and I'll 11 

## shut up, is that we had a discussion a little while 12 

## ago about kind of going back and reworking you know 13 

## this analysis, which by the way, I recognize a lot of 14 

## hard work went into it. And are you saying -- you 15 

## know we're going to try to you know provide some 16 

## quantitative data in places where we talked about -- 17 

## you know there's a lot of moving parts here. 18 

## I think it's fair to say that the benefits 19 

## are very, very small. Your intention is to go back 20 

## through this again and re-calculate or re-do this 21 

## analysis with new data? 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, any new data weThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## receive as a result of comment to the NOPR in this 2 

## public meeting will be taken into consideration. We 3 

## already know we're going to update all the moderates 4 

## for the new AEO data, so yes. 5 

## MR. SOHLER: When you say take into 6 

## consideration, you're going to take the data, and 7 

## assuming that it's credible you will drop it in -- 8 

## you know all of it that you get? 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: That's our standard 10 

## procedure. 11 

## MR. SOHLER: Okay. Thank you. 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We went through this 13 

## really quickly, but this is the slide that kind of 14 

## addresses your concern about what will happen if this 15 

## is our presumed occurrence, so at TLS3 you can see 16 

## the market share basically takes everything from what 17 

## was below it, but you could see here we didn't assume 18 

## that the condensing market share would go up. So, if 19 

## you don't think that -- this is stuff we would take 20 

## comment on. Okay. 21 

## MR. MARRAN: Yes, Roger Marran with Energy 22 

## Kinetics.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## Just very briefly, I agree with DOE with 2 

## respect to going to TSL3 is going to be primarily 3 

## focused on increasing heat exchanger area. And in 4 

## moving in that direction, there are two things, one 5 

## we mentioned earlier, the max tech for atmospheric 6 

## and natural draft vent puts a ceiling on those 7 

## products. 86 and 85 put a floor on those products 8 

## and that squeezes the range any given product can 9 

## serve. 10 

## In doing that, it's pretty clear for the 11 

## markets dominated by cast iron boilers and if they 12 

## have to move up they're going to add a section if 13 

## they have to get into that range, which adds mass. 14 

## And when you add mass, you're adding to what can be 15 

## correlated with the idle loss on the system, which 16 

## has a dramatic impact on the actual annual 17 

## efficiency, depending on what your re-gain assumption 18 

## is in the home. 19 

## I know there's a lot that went into it on 20 

## this as side of it as while. So, the thought, 21 

## though, there is it's possible you could have an 22 

## improvement in AFUE through the rule, but throughThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## actual field performance with idle loss taken into 2 

## account you could reduce it by more than what you're 3 

## increasing the rule by and you could actually have a 4 

## backsliding effect in the industry, depending on how 5 

## that plays out with really the re-gain amount in that 6 

## mass. 7 

## And from a manufacturing perspective, I 8 

## know Paul mentioned some things with manufacturing 9 

## efficiencies on foundries. For other manufacturers 10 

## that don't have foundries, it means introduction of 11 

## new products because you can't serve as broad a range 12 

## with a single product, so you have to introduce new 13 

## products as well. 14 

## So, I think there's some impacts there 15 

## that are a little different than the costs that we're 16 

## looking at here too, but from the perspective, 17 

## overall, from an efficiency standpoint and a 18 

## manufacturing standpoint how that all come together 19 

## and play out can have a profound impact on how the 20 

## calculations worked to establish that. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Additional thoughts? Yes, 22 

## Frank Stanonik.The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## MR. STANONIK: I'm Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 2 

## We touched on this I think very early in 3 

## this meeting, but one of the issues that -- I mean, 4 

## obviously, we recognize we need to just, to the 5 

## extend we can, provide some data and help better 6 

## inform the analysis, and we'll try to do that; but 7 

## one of the other issues that is very significant here 8 

## is that we're convinced that the revised test 9 

## procedure is going to change the AFUE for boilers. 10 

## And so, we have this little bit of this, if you will, 11 

## moving target situation that we're trying to look at 12 

## the analysis to review the standard and yet what 13 

## we're seeing is that when we looked at the revised -- 14 

## proposed revised AFUE procedure for boilers we're 15 

## going to get a different number. 16 

## And so part of this we're trying to 17 

## develop some of that information to show why we're 18 

## concerned and where we think that happens or you know 19 

## in what parts of the procedures causes that, so 20 

## that's something we're working on at the same time 21 

## we're trying to deal with this analysis. And so, 22 

## John you'll see I mean that's part of why we'reThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## asking for the time extension, but the only other 2 

## thing that I would say thanks to some of the slides 3 

## that were presented here now when I see SOB I'm going 4 

## to think of steam oil boiler. 5 

## (Laughter.) 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Rick. 7 

## MR. MURPHY: Yes, Rick Murphy, AGA. 8 

## I want to thank DOE for allowing us to be 9 

## here today. I found it very informative. The work 10 

## was very comprehensive and appreciate the ability to 11 

## go through t hat. I really appreciate the feedback 12 

## that the manufacturers provided. It was one of the 13 

## key reasons why I wanted to come and listen directly 14 

## from the people who are manufacturing this product. 15 

## An important take away for at least me is 16 

## the fact that -- and the gentleman at the end of the 17 

## table I think articulated this earlier is that 18 

## there's going to be a certain percentage of the 19 

## market that this 85 percent standard will actually 20 

## force it to become a condensing standard. And when 21 

## you look at the LCC spreadsheets and moving into 22 

## those condensing levels that's when you start to seeThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## a greater percentage of the market have more of net 2 

## cost than a net benefit. So, that is of deep concern 3 

## from the industry that works directly with the end 4 

## users of this equipment and the customers. So, I 5 

## really appreciated the dialogue and the information 6 

## and the willingness for the manufacturers to share 7 

## their perspective. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments before we 9 

## move towards closure here. Gary. 10 

## MR. HAINLEY: Gary Hainley, U.S. Boilers. 11 

## Thanks again for taking our comments 12 

## today. We appreciate the presentations. Not to be 13 

## belabor the point, but just to confirm our support 14 

## for what Frank said with the conflict associated with 15 

## the test procedure and the new standard being run 16 

## nearly simultaneously. We certain support an 17 

## extension to the comment period. 18 

## It is our belief from initial testing that 19 

## using the new procedure, as best we know it, will be 20 

## a reduction of 1 to 2 percent in AFUE. So, as 21 

## somebody once told me, it's hard to begin the game 22 

## until you know how you're going to keep score, so IThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## think that's my comment there. 2 

## And we spent a lot of time on gas-fired 3 

## water boiler product class level, and I think 4 

## everything's been supported, our concerns with 5 

## venting. I don't have anything new there, but we 6 

## believe a better alternative is to set a minimum 7 

## efficiency level of 83 percent, which would allow 8 

## most existing chimneys to stay in effect. 9 

## It gives homeowners choices. It allows 10 

## them to decide if they can afford to go to a higher 11 

## level they will. They do it today. People are 12 

## buying condensing boilers today and it's not 13 

## regulated. They're doing it because they can afford 14 

## it and it's economically justified for them, not 15 

## because they're being forced to do it. I think the 16 

## same thing applies here, that in some cases 85 is 17 

## just not appropriate. We like to continue to give 18 

## our customers choices and we do think that it is a 19 

## safer and broader product offering. 20 

## The last comment that I have is on the 21 

## lifetime analysis, and we'll try to provide more 22 

## written data on this; but we do feel that theThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## assumptions that EPA used that DOE then continued 2 

## with for comparisons in the UK are inappropriate. 3 

## That condensing boilers have only been in the 4 

## marketplace in the U.S. since about 2000 and you just 5 

## can't make the assumption that they're going to have 6 

## a 25-year lifetime when none of them have been here 7 

## for 25 years, and the UK comparison are based on 8 

## different products. With that, thank you. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Final comments? 10 

## Okay, John Cymbalsky. 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Actually, this question 12 

## came in earlier today and I put it in my pocket to 13 

## end the meeting with for good reason because it 14 

## really isn't relevant to this rulemaking. David Lis, 15 

## L-i-s, asked could DOE clarify whether or not 16 

## circulating pumps are considered a covered product 17 

## and thus, preempting states from implementing 18 

## state-level standards. 19 

## We do have an open rule on pumps and this 20 

## question will be delivered to the pumps docket and 21 

## dealt with in that rule. 22 

## And in conclusion, I would just like toThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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## thank everybody. I think actually today was a very 2 

## productive meeting. I learned a lot and we really do 3 

## appreciate the openness of the manufacturers to share 4 

## the information that they have. This is, obviously, 5 

## information only you guys have. And to the extent 6 

## you can and will provide it will really help 7 

## strengthen the analysis and so thank you in advance 8 

## for anything you can provide there. 9 

## And then for you traveling get home safe 10 

## and currently the comment period closes June 1, 2015, 11 

## but I can safely say you know you'll have another 12 

## month at minimum at this point. So, you'll have 30 13 

## days. I can guarantee that much at this point. 14 

## Please submit your comments to the email here. 15 

## MR. STAS: We'll do an extension notice in 16 

## the Federal Register and probably do an email blast. 17 

## It'll be on website. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, we will do a Federal 19 

## Register Notice. I'm still waiting for one of the 20 

## extension comments to come into my email box, so I 21 

## need to read them first. So, here's how you submit 22 

## your comments so that the docket's really importantThe Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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### 1 

## there and we look forward to receiving your comments 2 

## and thanks again. 3 

## (Whereupon, the meeting was conclude at 4 

## 4:41 p.m.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 295 **A a.m**  1:10 72:21 **A8** 261:11 **AA** 128:1 ,2 **AB32** 268:20 **ability** 253:1 283:12 289:10 **able** 7:20 14:20 15:4 16:20 41:21 43:19 43:21 46:16 93:2 109:20 159:5 211:18 227:5 254:5 ,10 **absence** 217:8 221:15 228:11 **absolute** 249:3 **absolutely** 211:18 **AC** 118:11 ,13 119:15 **Academy** 260:19 **ACCA** 3:5 8:15 44:3 ,7 67:18 68:13 ,15 98:5 ,7 **accept** 186:15 **access** 49:17 91:18 110:14 152:11 **accessible** 10:21 **accomplish** 69:8 **account** 31:11 45:11 66:6 78:22 79:3 ,5 79:8 ,13 ,17 ,19 80:12 88:7 ,13 ,17 89:21 90:16 94:4 94:15 96:8 97:19 106:9 107:14,20 109:15 113:13 ,21 114:9 117:1 118:6 118:7 121:8 122:3 122:9 123:5 ,21 124:11 126:20 127:16 147:17 ,21 148:2 157:7 158:10 159:1 ,11 163:18 166:2,4,6 167:5 172:11 ,14 172:17 174:8 175:21 ,22 176:3 ,4 178:18 180:22 183:2 185:9 190:18 199:16 206:10 215:7 ,12 215:12 223:5 ,9 231:18 232:19 234:13 ,15 237:9 263:11 282:22 287:2 **accountable** 22:14

**accounted** 24:16 102:11 118:4,10 206:4 218:9 235:10 273:7 **accounting** 71:2 87:4 88:22 169:22 185:7 219:13 **accounts** 70:7 103:15 ,20 112:3 119:11 215:18 236:3 **accrue** 244:21 ,21 **acknowledge** 138:22 **acquired** 230:17 **actions** 195:1 **active** 22:9 29:8 30:3 34:14 118:5 122:20 123:9,10 123:16,17 ,18 ,21 124:2,3 ,4,17 ,21 132:14 **active-mode** 27:16 **actual** 36:11 58:4 58:18 ,22 63:17 64:4 83:7 93:19 93:21 94:9,13 98:9,11 107:2,8 110:18 142:18 143:6 158:15 171:8 187:20 194:3 202:13 219:5 ,17 226:20 245:18 261:2 286:16 287:1 **Adam** 2:8 9:16 37:2 244:18 **add** 42:5 51:5 84:3 101:1 130:9,16 137:15 160:10 166:17 211:21 276:18 286:12,14 **added** 39:13 166:7 174:14 178:22 187:10 267:10 269:6 **adder** 38:12 **adding** 57:10 119:12 174:1 268:4 286:14 **addition** 31:22 77:10 79:7 94:3 166:7 206:3 **additional** 12:5 13:4 13:6 15:6 17:10 27:8 39:13 40:1

42:1 64:11 66:5 66:21 72:12 138:22 139:2,3 141:12 143:13 160:17 ,18 166:11 171:15 179:20 196:11 210:17 228:20 243:8 ,9 252:1 254:6,11 259:18 269:21 274:3 287:21 **additionally** 14:14 181:9 **additions** 259:5 **address** 39:9 113:22 199:18 **addressed** 91:20 **addresses** 285:14 **adds** 286:13 **adequate** 181:12,21 **adjust** 20:1 78:22 80:11 88:13 92:3 93:10 108:5 109:20 **adjusted** 76:9 79:3 94:22 107:8 **adjusting** 18:16 103:16 107:15 135:10 **adjustment** 74:4,9 90:3 94:20 103:14 103:18 ,22 105:19 107:13 111:19,21 234:18 236:1 **adjustments** 42:14 79:7 88:15 89:2 89:22,22 91:10 95:1 103:12 107:18 108:7 110:2 111:3 118:10 124:15 152:6 156:21 233:1 234:5 ,13 **adjusts** 107:5 ,10 **Administration's** 256:11 **advance** 59:14 293:7 **advantage** 8:1 **adverse** 25:3 **advocating** 40:17 **AEO** 79:14,18 82:21 83:7 86:2,3 86:5 200:5 260:11 260:11 261:10 262:5 263:12

270:7 271:11 ,14 271:17 ,18 ,21 285:4 **affect** 12:22 88:5 96:15 97:3 120:22 207:5 239:20 283:12 **affiliation** 7:9 8:7 **afford** 41:21 291:10 291:13 **AFUE** 12:3 14:11 18:11 ,22 23:1 ,15 23:19,22 24:1 ,9 29:16,18 30:3 34:15 ,15 35:18 ,19 44:18 50:15 74:1 74:2,6 77:2,12 79:4 80:11 ,11 87:16 88:5 ,13 ,15 92:3 93:10,21 94:8 ,9,13 ,14,18 94:21 95:15 96:16 97:3 102:18 103:18 ,19,20 105:12 107:7 ,14 107:15 ,16 108:5 111:19 112:19 113:1 ,12 132:15 135:10 141:22 246:16,18 247:14 259:3 ,10 286:22 288:9,14 290:20 **AFUE's** 94:19 **AGA** 39:16 116:15 132:20 159:14 198:6,21 273:17 289:7 **age** 69:2 77:12 162:19 190:3 209:4 **agency** 273:1 **agenda** 5:20,21 6:22 15:20 **aggregate** 35:6 55:11 **aggregated** 83:5 235:3 **ago** 76:18 86:10 96:18 192:15 284:12 **agree** 51:20 131:13 164:14 210:16 224:2 277:17 279:8 286:1 **Agreed** 164:15 **ahead** 51:22 52:16 56:8 91:5 116:14 179:13 203:20 **AHRI** 10:4,5 ,7 17:8 26:20 36:4 38:16 39:4 50:14,19 52:3 54:21 60:8 71:10 76:10 83:9 84:16 86:2 92:7 96:12 97:7 114:12 117:10 120:16 125:20 127:20 130:2 131:1 132:3 133:9 142:12 162:21 193:19 217:17 218:22 223:16 224:3 ,12 232:21 233:10 234:3 ,9,12,16 235:9,14,17 ,19,20 236:16 238:15 257:14 288:1 **air** 8:14,19 119:7 ,8 120:8 ,22 121:3 ,9 121:13 ,19 139:11 139:12,12 155:9,9 155:14,15 158:3 166:7 174:5 177:3 **Air-Conditioning** 2:10,12,14,16,18 **AL** 219:2 **Alex** 2:22 9:10 181:5 ,6 **Allen** 2:6 10:1 ,1 250:17 ,18 ,22 255:15 256:4 257:6,17 ,20 258:2 258:9,22 259:12 **allow** 41:12 179:19 291:7 **allowance** 247:11 **allowed** 222:2 **allowing** 14:3 289:8 **allows** 291:9 **alluded** 44:17 **alternate** 28:20 32:2 34:22 **alternative** 203:9,22 227:12 291:6 **altogether** 171:17 **aluminum** 23:13 184:6 185:15 ,17 **amended** 228:11 251:1 ,3 ,7 ,13 253:15 259:14 **America** 8:15The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 296 **American** 3:6 8:21 205:22 209:7 283:22 **amount** 39:1 61:15 117:21 199:13 210:19 211:14 248:3 ,4,18 ,19 250:7 287:5 **Amy** 2:14 86:1 193:17 ,18 194:21 218:22 233:9,10 238:14 241:20 247:6 257:13 265:14 **analogy** 241:11 **analyses** 6:7 ,12 244:10,17 252:5 253:8 ,17 256:5 270:1 **analysis** 6:6,6,11 ,15 11:7 19:10 21:11 21:11 ,16 22:2,16 23:3 24:19,20 25:5 ,12 27:9,14 27:16,20 28:1 ,7 28:16,20 29:16 30:4,9,12 31:14 32:2 33:8 34:14 38:12 39:2,22 40:1 ,5 ,12 43:1 45:19 55:6,13 57:2 58:17 ,18 59:1 ,9 64:22 67:18 69:20 70:21 71:8 73:10,14 74:18 76:15 77:16 80:22 81:16 82:12 86:10,12,14,16 87:21 92:16 101:19 102:6,9 109:20 111:3 114:15 123:20 125:11 ,16 126:20 127:15 131:5 133:13 134:19 138:8 143:22 144:4,5 ,8,9 146:16 147:3 151:2 154:4 156:22 159:18 165:9 172:16 173:20 178:10 187:19 195:10 198:12,21 201:12 201:15 202:20 203:4,5 204:18 209:3 211:3

212:18 214:20 215:1 216:22 221:13 222:3 224:15 225:3 ,6,10 228:17 229:20 230:3 ,7 ,8,10,21 231:2 232:17 237:1 239:5 244:1 247:19 249:17 ,21 250:15 ,20 252:2 253:19,20 256:8 ,9 259:8 265:18 ,21 267:1 ,5 270:2,14 270:15 ,18 272:6 272:21 273:19,21 274:3 ,9 275:6,17 283:6 284:13 ,21 288:6,12,21 291:21 293:7 **analyze** 22:8 23:4 71:16 **analyzed** 29:7 30:3 78:7 258:22 259:2 **analyzing** 67:13 **and/or** 226:21 **Andrew** 2:6 10:1 250:16,18 **annual** 73:10,12 76:12 80:17 89:12 107:3 115:1 132:13 ,21 144:16 144:18 182:22 183:7 198:8 ,19 231:14 286:16 **annualized** 208:16 208:18 ,20 **annualizing** 278:18 **answer** 43:17 55:19 56:5 169:3 **answering** 21:18 **answers** 72:8 **antidotal** 46:18 212:8 **Anurag** 3:12 10:2 **anybody** 216:14 **AOE** 232:2 **apart** 81:12 **apartment** 85:7 279:2 **apartments** 85:16 **APGA** 198:21 **apologize** 183:14 **appeal** 239:17 **Appearances** 2:1 **appears** 52:20,21 104:8 117:19

**appendices** 166:9 169:18 172:8 **appendix** 77:19 87:15 177:8 183:10 203:22 206:1 ,8,14 212:18 213:2 217:22 233:14,18 235:1 238:3 **apples-to-apples** 211:14 **appliance** 3:2 4:14 9:8 140:4 205:11 232:19 234:9 272:20 273:3 ,4 281:3 **appliances** 272:17 **applicable** 18:2 95:17 98:6 107:5 126:8 173:7 ,17 176:2 180:9 **application** 65:18 80:2 92:2 96:6 98:10 99:10,11 100:2 113:5 **applications** 65:19 65:21 66:3 68:4 70:16 71:3 73:17 73:18 75:20 88:17 89:4,5 ,7 90:6 98:7 113:15 135:9 140:16 233:6 **applied** 69:8 ,18 70:22 74:8 90:7 93:20 113:4,11 121:14 126:4 159:11 170:3 186:8 ,11 255:9 **applies** 291:16 **apply** 89:22 102:5 108:11 124:10,10 160:21 170:5 171:6 175:21 178:19 179:18 223:21 **applying** 43:3 169:14 170:19 **appreciate** 11:3 72:12 80:18 98:9 98:15 113:8 114:10 116:7 117:9 130:22 133:12 153:1 169:9 201:14 207:6,18 208:2 210:5 212:16

214:11 ,17 219:21 236:8 240:12 264:2 289:10,11 290:12 293:3 **appreciated** 177:20 240:15 247:3 290:5 **appreciates** 5:2 **approach** 27:17 ,21 56:19 135:10 145:12 220:12 227:16 228:7 **appropriate** 33:13 65:5 84:15 153:2 170:3 172:13 183:9 224:21 260:12 291:17 **appropriately** 189:14 **approximated** 208:2 **approximately** 72:18 255:11 ,12 255:22 **approximation** 36:17 **approximations** 36:14 **April** 1:11 4:6 86:15 194:10 **area** 35:12,17 ,19,21 36:2 150:16 168:5 200:8 245:15 268:22 286:3 **areas** 41:12,12 49:12 92:2 206:13 216:9 275:5 ,7 **arguably** 101:6 **argued** 252:14 **arithmetic** 245:11 265:5 **arms** 150:9 **arrive** 6:17 **articulated** 289:17 **asked** 153:16 292:15 **asking** 43:18 47:9 49:21 123:8 ,16 124:1 ,8 127:21 192:15 193:13 ,15 219:17 289:1 **asks** 82:1 199:9 222:21 **ASPA** 195:8 **aspect** 240:5 **aspects** 228:16 247:20 249:17 259:17 **asserting** 190:13 **assertion** 131:13 194:19 **assess** 251:1 ,13 **assessment** 6:5 20:16 21:10,14 24:5 28:9 **asset** 213:14 **assets** 215:17 **assign** 175:13 **assigned** 162:3 **associated** 35:15 73:16 88:22 89:5 89:11 ,13 ,15 107:10,19 109:3 110:8 114:6,8 125:17 136:4 159:15 170:9 178:3 187:13 275:21 282:1 290:14 **Association** 2:20 3:6 8:13 ,16,22 16:11 **assume** 45:13 46:2 48:1 51:11 66:18 74:21 76:20 78:3 82:8 89:6,12,18 90:2,5 ,20,21 91:2 92:16 95:14,20,22 96:5 ,7 107:21 126:14,17 133:13 138:14 140:2 146:12 147:11 149:5 ,12,14 150:14,19 152:22 155:20 159:1 ,16 159:19 162:8 ,10 163:2,7 ,10 165:18 170:16 172:18 173:18 174:22 175:3 176:7 178:17 185:12 197:16 204:5 206:15 209:13 210:20 212:19,21 216:11 226:3 ,5 236:7 279:1 ,9 285:17 **assumed** 38:18 70:10 76:1 ,3 77:14 78:5 92:19 97:16 104:5 106:17 ,21 116:9The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 297 120:12 126:6,10 177:14 178:5 ,10 182:18 189:18 207:22 218:1 ,12 219:2 232:11 ,13 235:11 **assumes** 77:15 159:19 231:2,3 238:17 242:10 **assuming** 60:18 67:9 121:4 132:21 150:4 151:9 152:13 ,21 153:3 164:12 168:10 184:6 186:18 191:8 196:1 205:9 218:5 219:10,15 220:16 229:1 285:7 **assumption** 46:5 99:2,12,16 100:4 108:11 109:6 136:1 150:12 151:15 152:2 163:22 164:8 ,22 189:1 195:10,13 197:10 209:18 210:17 211:1 219:21 238:1 286:17 292:5 **assumptions** 88:20 92:9 93:22 106:14 120:1 122:16 125:8 148:15 ,21 149:2,17 204:19 205:4,7 235:19 271:8 292:1 **atmospheric** 42:9 44:19 50:2 52:4 54:12 131:12,15 142:6 286:5 **atomize** 130:6 **attached** 84:5 **attempt** 72:2 **attendance** 11:3 **attic** 150:9 **atypical** 85:15 **auction** 269:1 **audio** 4:19 5:13 ,14 7:21 **AUE** 42:14 **authority** 15:21 17:22 **automatic** 18:15 88:21 89:21 90:2 94:5 ,6 96:16,22 135:11 205:1

**automatically** 120:12 **Availability** 31:2,6 39:19 40:2 **available** 12:2 32:13 54:9 63:21 67:21 77:19 86:3 125:22 141:19 142:22 145:10,14 146:13 156:1 194:14 200:7 206:8 217:21 232:1 238:3 251:20 252:4 **Avenue** 1:7 **avenues** 194:15 **average** 28:11 35:8 37:20 56:4 58:20 61:6 62:7 ,18 63:2 63:4 70:21 71:1 ,6 71:7 79:15 ,16 81:5 ,11 ,14,17 89:6,12 102:21 103:15 104:11 ,16 104:21 111:16 114:13 115:8 117:20 125:14 126:3 127:10 128:20 132:22 148:6 157:4 159:2 159:4,11 ,12 171:5 171:6,15 ,16 173:7 173:8 ,8,10 175:2 175:3 ,10,11 178:20,20,21 179:3 182:14,16 182:19,22 183:7 187:7 ,8 188:3 ,10 190:3 204:19 205:6 216:21 220:6 224:16,18 224:19 231:9 233:4 255:5 256:15 ,17 ,20 **averaged** 119:3 188:2 **averages** 80:19 131:1 255:9 **averaging** 188:1 278:18 **aware** 41:18 46:8 66:20 83:12 86:14 106:11 140:10 211:2 **Awareness** 3:2 9:9 **aways** 276:20

**awesome** 55:16 **axis** 104:3 ,17 **Aykut** 2:16 10:4 **B B**  26:9 **back** 30:10 36:5 47:2 51:9 58:6 82:18 ,19 112:12 116:11 132:8 133:7 144:1 ,2 145:22 151:13 152:1 154:6 176:11 177:22 183:16,19 184:18 186:2 188:20 189:17 194:19 198:7 ,17 200:3 ,18 201:22 207:15 214:21 223:7 229:13 ,18 230:2 240:18 ,19 246:17 248:9 258:10,12 274:12 275:9 276:15 278:2 282:6 283:16 284:12,19 **backs** 64:10 **backsliding** 287:4 **backwards** 236:7 **bad** 221:13 279:5 **Baltimore** 4:9 49:14 **band** 23:15 **bane** 277:22 **bank** 216:4 **bare** 208:6,9 **base** 48:1 50:3 79:18 92:3 145:1 162:18 184:14 189:20,21 209:6 209:18 210:8 217:1 ,2,5 ,7 222:8 230:12 237:6,16 254:13 283:4 **baseboard** 100:17 **baseboards** 89:8 **based** 33:4 36:11 37:22 38:12 40:11 57:5 61:10,11 ,22 62:1 ,11 66:9 67:5 67:8 ,13 69:20 70:19 76:9 77:12 78:20 79:14 80:22 86:22 89:3 90:16 90:17 ,18 92:1 93:21 95:11 ,13 ,18

98:1 102:16,20 106:2 108:5 118:7 125:20 126:1 ,18 127:20 132:3 ,22 134:13 ,21 135:11 137:9 138:3 ,11 140:2 146:9 148:14,15 ,21 149:16 155:21 156:4 162:6,19 176:16 177:10,12 182:12 183:4 184:3 ,7 199:13 201:16 203:7 ,10 205:16,18 206:12 209:11 213:10 214:12 216:12 218:4 221:5 ,7 ,10 222:3 ,15 ,22 223:3 225:21 231:10,15 232:7 233:4,7 ,14 235:9,13 236:2 237:1 ,3 241:6,7 243:20 255:7 257:7 258:1 261:8 268:7 271:1 ,11 272:1 281:2 292:7 **baseline** 23:18 24:16 29:3 ,4,6,17 32:17 33:13 57:4 57:5 ,9 59:3 ,8,13 60:2 65:4 69:6,8,9 69:19 71:6 72:1 105:20 106:1 119:2 168:15 ,16 189:5 218:13 219:3 ,6,16,18 220:4,9 240:21 263:7 ,8,9,17 ,18 263:19 **baseline's** 264:13 **basement** 149:6,6,7 151:8 ,9,11 ,15 155:14 160:13 167:21 168:1 178:8 **basements** 90:11 ,13 149:5 ,10,18 ,19 155:7 **basic** 52:5 145:19 147:17 ,19 156:10 156:11 ,18 ,20 157:4 179:17 247:16 265:5 **basically** 16:13 44:16 45:4 49:16 52:12 60:20 73:20 80:7 114:19 116:1 116:9 122:13 145:19 181:20 186:20 219:13 235:1 238:10 244:6,9,14 245:9 249:16 260:18 262:5 267:17 277:9 285:16 **basis** 22:6 25:6 115:1 117:20 176:18 177:14 201:13 202:3 211:1 215:13 ,13 264:9 **bath** 85:19 **bathrooms** 140:21 **battery** 128:1 ,2 **bear** 51:15 ,18 **becoming** 83:12 **beginning** 187:6 237:8 **behalf** 13:21 **belabor** 115:19 290:13 **belief** 290:18 **believe** 12:22 13:1 54:3 58:16 68:15 68:20 97:1 99:15 100:12 142:6 184:19 192:8 193:17 206:20 211:7 226:2 233:16,16 257:17 261:18 262:12,21 268:22 269:2 271:1 272:14 291:6 **beneficial** 96:3 220:14,15 **benefit** 136:22 225:12,13 267:11 267:16,19,22 269:19 290:2 **benefits** 266:11 ,22 267:3 ,10 268:9 269:15 ,16 275:7 275:11 ,12 276:3 284:18 **Berkeley** 2:21 ,22 9:10,13 64:20 225:22 **best** 49:13 58:7 59:15 61:5 62:20The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 298 63:7 64:9 279:13 281:3 ,4,5 290:19 **better** 13:2 27:4 72:10 81:10 88:5 92:1 96:22 97:6 114:15 115:14 116:3 137:15 138:6 169:11 184:20 191:7 225:16 240:9 251:17 288:5 291:6 **beyond** 52:6 123:17 138:8 179:17 275:11 ,13 **BHI** 171:21 **big** 16:14 26:9 33:17 46:19 47:14 81:13 84:9,10 85:1 ,1 112:1 194:12 247:10 263:1 265:3 **bigger** 203:16 **biggest** 14:14 **bill** 30:15 114:18 ,19 **billion** 265:10,10 267:15 268:1 ,2,4 **bills** 225:12,14 274:11 **bit** 26:4,10 33:11 42:21 43:2 71:12 71:14 82:7 86:13 89:14 93:19 94:14 101:8 103:21 107:12 119:12 129:2 132:1 137:6 137:15 142:14 144:14 145:5 147:13 169:15 175:19 178:13 191:5 201:17 215:18 226:17 230:20 234:16 244:3 263:10 288:10 **blast** 293:16 **blower** 205:4 **blue** 220:22 237:6 **bluntly** 46:6 **Board's** 213:11 **boiler** 3:4,9 4:6 8:8 9:4,5 ,5 ,6 13:14,21 13:22 14:1 24:7 32:6 33:20 34:1 ,4 34:9 36:21 38:9 39:13 40:21 47:10 48:17 ,22 49:2,8

54:6 66:4 67:4 68:3 75:10,12,13 76:14,19 77:1 ,13 78:4,6,10,18 79:1 79:2,19,20 80:1 ,2 80:5 ,11 ,17 85:1 88:16,18 90:12,14 92:11 94:9,12,21 98:18 99:6,14 101:10 102:7 ,7 106:9,18 ,22,22 108:6,17 109:5 ,7 109:15 111:15 115:22 118:6 120:19 122:20,21 122:22 124:2 126:18 130:8 131:9 133:6 134:11 137:10,11 137:14,21 139:7 139:11 ,13 ,17 ,19 140:13 141:6 142:2 149:2 151:9 151:15 ,21 152:17 156:13 ,14 158:19 159:1 ,2,16,19 160:3 ,4,12,14 161:2,10 162:5 ,9 162:17 ,17 ,19,19 164:1 165:6 166:22 167:20 170:13 173:12,21 174:13 175:8 176:14 177:1 ,10 180:1 ,2,3 ,17 ,18 181:8 ,11 182:1 184:14 185:4,16 186:2 189:9,11 ,12 190:3 192:19 193:21 ,21 ,22 196:1 ,14,16,20 197:5 ,7 204:16 209:5 ,17 210:15 211:4 217:15 223:6,7 224:6 230:17 231:2,9 232:14,15 234:4 235:6,7 236:5 239:21 ,22 240:6,8 240:20 246:6 251:2 276:20 277:5 ,16 278:11 278:19 279:17 281:19 283:3 ,10 283:10 289:4 291:3

**boiler's** 106:11 **boilers** 1:2 4:16 11:5 12:6,11 ,19 14:16 18:5 ,8,14 18:18 21:19 22:5 22:9,14,16,19 23:2,7 ,8,9,11 ,14 23:17 29:10 32:12 32:15 33:1 ,19 34:3 ,4 35:10 38:4 44:18 ,19 49:11 50:3 54:11 56:16 56:21 65:20 66:2 66:22 70:1 ,10 71:5 72:3 73:18 74:19,20,21 76:17 77:2 78:5 79:21 82:3 ,10,11 83:13 84:10,11 85:8 ,20 88:9,21 89:1 ,6 90:8 ,20 91:2,3 92:10,13 ,17 93:3 94:1 ,2,5 ,11 95:2 95:18 97:16 101:20 104:17 106:12 107:6 110:18 111:7 ,8 114:6 115:21 116:17 117:2,5 ,8 120:20 121:1 126:9 130:20 132:5 ,22 133:1 135:8 ,19 136:2 137:1 ,8,17 ,21 138:1 ,10,14,15 140:8 141:2 147:22 148:16 149:1 ,4,18 ,21 152:12 153:4 157:3 ,7 ,17 158:1 160:12 164:17 165:5 ,7 167:10 169:6,6 173:3 ,13 173:19 174:1 ,4 175:5 178:21 179:19 189:20 198:10 205:3 206:15 207:14 211:9 218:3 ,4,8,9 220:22 221:1 ,1 222:18 224:5 ,20 225:11 227:15 ,18 228:1 ,11 ,13 232:13 235:9,12 235:18 ,20,21 236:9 237:4 246:4

252:13 253:6,6 257:3 ,8 278:8 ,10 280:17 284:5 ,5 286:11 288:9,14 290:10 291:12 292:3 **boon** 277:21 **bottom** 11:12 144:16 175:10 178:15 188:21 190:7 237:7 261:4 **bought** 239:17 **bound** 254:16,18 255:20 **box** 11:13 293:20 **boxes** 11:11 15:15 138:21 141:10 144:10 243:7 **bozos** 280:12 **brand** 277:16 **break** 6:9 72:13 ,16 72:18 109:16 143:14,15 ,16 229:10 244:3 **breaks** 22:5 **BRG** 211:7 **bricks** 53:10 **brief** 6:1 **briefly** 165:14 166:19 218:14 227:10 286:1 **bring** 106:3 118:16 136:13 204:4 260:1 282:5 **bringing** 134:6 **brings** 267:8 **broad** 113:4 141:7 252:11 287:11 **broader** 275:8 291:19 **broken** 23:6 85:15 **Brookman** 2:3 4:2,8 5:7 7:2 8:5 10:9 11:19 12:12 13:4 13:8 15:6,10 16:1 16:9 17:7 ,18 20:18 21:7 25:13 26:19 27:8 ,11 30:5 ,20 32:8 33:22 34:11 36:3 38:15 39:1 ,15 40:20 42:1 ,18 44:10,13 46:20 47:4 48:4 51:22 52:16 53:16 54:2 56:7 57:15 60:22

64:11 ,15 68:7 ,19 71:9 72:11 ,16,22 81:20 82:13 91:5 92:5 ,21 96:11 97:21 98:16 100:20 101:14 104:1 114:11 115:16 116:5 ,13 118:14 120:15 122:17 124:17 ,20 125:1 126:22 129:18 130:1 131:7 ,16 132:19 133:5 135:16 136:5 138:20 140:12 141:9 142:11 143:13 ,20 146:17 149:22 151:6 153:12 155:2,17 159:13 160:8 161:4 163:19 167:6 168:8 169:1 ,8 171:20 172:9 176:10 177:21 179:13 181:4 182:3 183:13 ,18 187:4 188:8 ,11 ,19 189:12,19 190:6 190:19 191:3 193:17 196:4,6,11 197:20 198:2,5 199:5 ,8,18 200:2 203:20 206:17 207:8 208:4 209:16 212:15 213:16 216:14,19 222:20 223:12 224:8 225:18 228:18 229:5 ,9,17 233:9 238:4,11 ,13 239:6 240:16 241:20 243:6,22 245:21 247:21 257:2 258:16,21 259:18 ,21 269:21 272:13 273:11 274:2,5 276:5 287:21 289:6 290:8 292:9 **BT** 270:6 **BTU** 33:20 104:11 110:21 120:4,5 ,12 **BTUs** 29:12,13 32:16 52:8 104:18The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 299 105:2,3 110:14 117:6 120:6,7 132:22 **bucket** 84:7 ,7 **build** 21:16 160:15 164:13 251:19 252:3 **builders** 101:2 226:21 **building** 1:6 4:7 68:5 75:7 76:2 77:7 78:2,3 ,16,17 78:22 79:8 ,13 82:22 84:4 96:9 96:10 103:7 ,12 150:18 ,19 153:6 160:2 164:2,12 182:15 183:5 ,10 183:12 194:1 196:17 ,19 226:20 227:6 231:19 232:3 ,15 277:10 **buildings** 46:14 75:10 76:3 ,8 83:4 83:14 85:1 106:15 106:19,21 108:10 136:10,16,22 137:13 150:7 183:3 230:17 **built** 31:4 49:2,4 50:6 53:6 76:2 96:5 ,7 100:10,10 100:13 164:2,20 189:1 ,8 196:2,17 196:19 197:5 **built-in** 164:8 **bulk** 189:19 **bullet** 36:7 ,15 37:4 **bunch** 207:3 245:11 247:7 ,13 **bundle** 244:10 **bundled** 247:7 **buoyancy** 41:7 **burden** 194:13 251:9 **burdensome** 53:21 **buried** 64:6 **burner** 25:8 26:9,11 74:11 78:1 ,1 ,15 78:16,17 87:10,13 87:16 122:2,14 123:1 ,2,6,6,10,13 123:14,17 ,19 124:3 ,5 ,7 ,15 ,18 130:5 ,11 131:3 ,11 **burners** 114:4 **Burnham** 3:7 9:3 13:16,22 47:6 85:11 153:13 183:15 247:22 **burning** 18:17 73:21 76:13 124:11 **business** 50:4 65:11 226:13 246:16 251:6 256:10,11 257:12 272:19 **business-sensitive** 154:1 **businesses** 256:7 **Butcher** 112:12 **buy** 192:21 241:13 **buying** 291:12 **byproduct** 75:18 **C C**  4:1 **calcium** 199:12 **calculate** 67:12 81:16 87:17 88:6 111:19 233:5 **calculated** 68:3 73:21 74:15 76:15 **calculates** 87:13 ,16 **calculating** 87:19 87:20 103:4 111:1 135:6 **calculation** 114:21 122:12 **calculations** 86:22 87:16,21 107:2 134:22 287:20 **calendar** 86:16 **California** 115:9,10 115:11 268:20 269:2 **call** 19:8 122:22 123:11 ,18 130:15 156:20 176:17 194:3 **called** 31:18 125:22 204:22 **capacity** 29:11 33:5 73:22 76:14,19,21 77:2,19 80:10 82:2 93:11 162:3 162:5 184:11 251:8 270:5 ,9,22 283:14 **capital** 213:14,15 254:21 255:5 ,12 **capsule** 253:14 **capture** 254:2 263:8 265:1 **captured** 275:22 **capturing** 143:9 197:16 **carbon** 47:7 265:17 272:1 275:2 **card** 216:3 278:14 **care** 71:22 239:22 **careful** 137:19 **carefully** 147:11 224:2 **Carlo** 145:12 **Caroline** 2:10 10:6 **carry** 67:6 **case** 12:18 32:12,20 57:19 58:3 ,7 ,18 59:8 ,12,12,15 61:5 ,5 62:6,20 64:9 66:12 70:3 71:21 72:9 95:14 100:1 101:21 118:20 121:7 140:11 145:1 156:12,13 161:22 162:1 166:21 167:3 178:5 179:19 185:11 186:9 188:15 196:8 204:1 210:8 217:1 ,2,5 ,8 220:10 222:8 230:12 237:6,16 247:7 248:16,17 254:13 ,14 261:3 280:20 **cases** 25:20 44:1 ,21 46:6 56:17 121:5 126:12 164:6 169:20 180:3 181:10,14,16 202:7 245:14 282:2 291:16 **cash** 251:12 **cast** 23:10,16,20 24:2 29:10 52:4,9 211:10 212:6 234:8 235:1 ,5 284:3 286:11 **catalog** 31:18 **catalogs** 30:13 **categories** 81:7 178:1 **cathedral** 158:18 **Catherine** 2:7 9:14 20:17 21:7 ,9 30:7 38:17 56:8 64:18

244:18 **cause** 242:2 282:21 **caused** 35:20 57:14 **causes** 184:22 288:19 **causing** 242:20 **caution** 224:4 **CBECS** 74:3 ,7 75:9 75:19 77:7 102:21 106:10 135:6 183:4,11 232:4 233:8 **CBESC** 205:18 **ceiling** 158:17 ,18 286:6 **cell** 7:12 **Census** 67:19,20,21 68:14 223:15 232:1 ,5 251:20 **center** 47:8 **central** 119:7 ,8 121:19 155:10 **cents** 282:14 **certain** 17:5 19:3 25:20 26:16 42:14 45:18 61:14 99:20 113:20 120:20 130:7 139:18 145:11 152:22 160:2 165:19,20 168:13 183:3 191:16 212:3 220:14,17 240:1 242:9,10 268:18 273:5 278:10 289:18 290:16 **certainly** 7:15 19:21 33:10 42:8 48:6 49:16 50:20 55:12 84:18 101:6 113:3 114:14 117:3 ,12 121:2 140:20 143:1 ,4 176:19 207:13 ,16 212:6 239:21 240:4 245:22 281:18 **certification** 217:15 222:12 **certifications** 217:21 **cetera** 140:22 221:18 260:14 **Chair** 2:3 **challenging** 14:7 **chance** 6:20 200:14 **change** 30:1 34:3 61:19 87:18 93:15 103:21 120:7 222:19 241:18 242:3 263:18 270:7 272:9 277:8 282:19 288:9 **changed** 271:12 272:8 **changes** 27:15 71:18 86:20 180:1 222:18 227:17 242:19,20 245:8 245:17 **changing** 16:18 ,19 243:1 **channel** 65:9,12 66:5 ,11 ,18 67:3 ,7 **channels** 65:6,22 66:21 **chapter** 66:8 111:22 146:16 166:9 169:18 183:10 200:8 209:9 217:20 231:16 234:22 246:12 250:9 270:9,19 **characteristics** 29:6 29:9 48:19 77:6,9 91:22 117:8 232:5 **characterization** 6:8 64:22 73:6,9 75:6 134:18 135:3 **characterize** 27:4 **charge** 156:12 **chart** 20:10 51:3 59:7 98:8 ,21 104:9,14 136:15 137:3 144:8 158:10 175:19 200:8 218:18 261:4 269:14,15 **charts** 65:14 66:1 249:1 **check** 47:3 **checking** 215:12 **checks** 226:19 **chevrons** 20:11 **chew** 52:19 **chime** 11:10 **chimney** 14:17 47:11 53:10,20 56:4 157:17 162:7 162:9,13 164:1 ,5 165:8 167:4,9 170:18 171:9The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 300 183:21 184:22 185:1 ,3 ,21 186:1 186:10 189:16 190:14,21 ,21 191:8 ,14,17 ,19 192:19,21 195:11 195:12,14,18 196:3 ,9,19 197:12 279:14,15 **chimney-vented** 54:19 **chimneys** 14:19 41:4 44:18 45:3 ,6 46:12 53:2,18 55:22 141:7 164:4 170:1 183:21 185:8 ,10 189:1 291:8 **choice** 14:22 **choices** 167:11 291:9,18 **choose** 243:13 **choosing** 167:11 **chose** 31:10 **Chris** 9:22 **Christine** 3:5 8:14 44:10 46:20,22 **Christmas** 282:10 **Christopher** 2:9 **chunk** 249:3 **circulate** 180:19 **circulating** 125:10 125:12 129:22 156:14 292:16 **circumstances** 260:5 281:3 **citation** 248:16 **cite** 18:9 111:14 260:18 **cites** 62:12 **cities** 207:3 **civic** 244:3 **clarification** 17:19 114:3 195:9 224:11 ,11 241:21 **clarified** 276:2 **clarify** 86:21 101:16 104:14 105:13 108:20 109:21 113:9 117:4 123:3 133:8 187:6 216:17 265:16 272:22 292:15 **clarifying** 196:12 197:20 **clarity** 274:1 **class** 18:12 24:12,13 32:5 56:15 57:2,4 57:12 71:1 ,4 75:18 110:17 231:19 245:19 255:7 291:3 **classes** 19:1 22:6,13 22:17 ,18 28:17 ,21 29:1 ,7 32:3 ,6 34:21 35:2 101:20 102:18 132:16 170:15 171:4 173:4 179:18 197:11 209:14,19 222:15 224:21 230:19 232:12 284:3 **clear** 60:11 286:10 **clearing** 206:12 **Clearinghouse** 67:22 **clearly** 280:18 **climate** 79:15 81:8 **clock** 244:5 **close** 12:13 169:4 185:2 238:1 ,1 **closed** 77:17 **closer** 58:21 **closes** 72:4 293:10 **closest** 160:3 **closet** 150:16 **closing** 276:7 **closure** 290:9 **clothes** 233:15 239:9,11 ,12 **CO2** 260:9,14 265:3 265:9 267:10,17 267:21 268:5 ,21 **coal-fired** 270:20,22 **code** 18:9 52:7 164:3 ,13 194:2 195:2 197:1 ,6,7 197:13 257:8 **codes** 85:17 257:7 **cognizant** 53:1 **coil** 107:18 ,22 110:3 111:8 112:7 234:10 **coil-tube** 235:15 **coils** 112:16 **cold-fired** 271:9 **coldest** 105:22 106:1 **collapsed** 222:1 **colleague** 184:19 **colleagues** 282:18 **collected** 141:18

**colors** 240:1 **column** 60:10 102:19 103:1 104:15 138:9,10 173:5 175:3 ,9,9 **combination** 217:20 231:13 235:7 **combined** 238:7 **combustion** 25:8 26:7 158:3 166:8 174:5 176:16 177:3 260:13 **come** 5:16 17:6 31:14 38:4 53:3 ,8 56:16 59:18 70:20 75:17 77:6,22 79:15 93:5 95:5 116:11 128:4 139:2,19 154:18 158:16 163:15 171:14 176:19 182:21 183:4,6 184:8 190:22 205:5 215:16 222:13 ,16 230:7 232:4 235:2,3 ,4 245:12 258:20 262:21 271:19,20 271:21 272:9 274:18 279:7 280:5 ,7 ,10 287:18 289:13 293:20 **comes** 76:5 80:8 93:6 113:5 116:18 122:6 136:12 139:13 151:13 179:3 183:11 239:9 240:5 260:11 271:18 272:10 273:1 278:4,21 **Comfort** 205:22 **coming** 23:18 24:1 28:13 188:20 271:2 **comment** 6:18 11:11 ,13 14:13 15:15 16:2,15 19:18 ,20 39:6 40:22 41:17 44:4 44:7 ,11 46:21 47:2 53:16 54:6 55:17 56:3 72:4 84:13 ,14 92:15 104:14 113:9 127:14 130:22

131:8 ,10 135:7 ,13 135:20 138:21 139:3 140:14 141:1 ,10,14 142:3 142:8 154:3 ,10 160:20 161:1 164:11 167:6,13 169:10 177:7 188:18 195:5 199:9 202:22 203:19 207:7 ,19 212:12 214:12 222:5 ,20 227:10 227:11 228:12,19 229:8 236:15 239:5 ,13 240:13 240:14 243:7 247:20 249:17 258:17 259:13 261:8 265:15 272:12 285:1 ,20 290:17 291:1 ,20 293:10 **commented** 41:2 54:7 **comments** 5:3 ,5 6:22 7:11 8:2 11:10 13:5 14:4,7 15:7 ,7 ,19 20:12 27:8 38:22 39:3 42:2 46:17 56:1 56:10 60:5 64:12 64:13 71:7 72:12 72:14 73:1 ,2 101:16 126:19 135:4,5 ,10,16,19 136:1 ,3 138:22 143:13 147:12 153:1 154:6 182:6 194:8 196:12 198:1 199:5 201:19 227:16,18 228:9,15 236:9 240:14 246:19,22 249:16 253:11 259:18 264:17 ,17 269:20,21 274:3 276:7 278:22 281:14 290:8 ,11 292:9 293:14,20 293:22 294:1 **commercial** 66:3 68:4 71:3 95:14 98:3 ,4,7 135:9 150:7 213:9,13 228:9 232:3 233:6

233:6 **Commission** 115:11 **commodities** 202:1 **common** 29:9 85:4 110:2 139:10 **commonly** 174:8 **communicate** 5:12 **companies** 14:1 65:10 111:14 256:10 **company** 3:4 8:9 9:4,7 13:21 131:9 257:11 **company's** 67:13 **compared** 32:14 55:21 232:7 237:16 **comparing** 261:21 **comparison** 77:19 211:14 292:7 **comparisons** 225:7 292:2 **competing** 12:20 **complete** 253:21 **completely** 30:12 102:6 **compliance** 20:4 254:6,12 **component** 31:17 39:13 73:19 108:2 113:12 123:5 ,7 130:9,16,17 144:22 147:8 148:11 **components** 57:11 61:18 73:13 74:13 112:2 122:4 124:13 ,16 125:9 147:18 156:9 158:7 ,16 178:14 179:11 182:9 204:15 ,20,22 205:10 209:2 **comprehensive** 289:10 **compressor** 120:8 **comprised** 23:20 24:1 **conceal** 167:22 **concealing** 158:4 166:12,14,17 167:18 ,19 **conceivable** 185:17 **conceiving** 277:7 **concern** 14:14 33:9The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 301 33:11 41:9 44:15 48:14 83:11 252:10,22 253:4 281:17 282:21 285:14 290:2 **concerned** 5:14 41:1 50:1 288:18 **concerns** 14:4 48:8 48:12 55:18 154:16 246:20,21 291:4 **conclude** 294:3 **concludes** 135:3 **concluding** 102:15 211:12 **conclusion** 247:17 292:22 **conclusive** 211:16 **condensate** 128:16 129:5 ,10,12 148:3 175:18 ,20,21 176:1 ,3 ,7 178:2,3 178:15 ,18 199:13 206:5 ,7 **condensation** 199:12 **condensing** 12:6,7 12:10 23:8 ,11 35:13 ,13 42:9 43:20 44:4 48:7 48:10 74:19,20 75:2 89:11 91:2 92:17 94:2,11 ,12 94:16,21 95:6,17 96:3 97:15 98:20 99:6,10 100:7 125:13 ,18 126:3 ,8 126:12 147:22 148:2 157:2 158:1 158:14 165:15 ,16 167:2 169:6 170:6 173:1 ,4 174:4,13 175:8 ,22 176:14 176:22 177:10 179:19 180:13 ,17 206:3 207:14,17 207:19,20,21 209:22,22 210:8 ,9 210:12,18 212:5 ,7 218:6 219:14 222:11 ,16,19,22 223:5 ,7 ,8,10,15 227:15 ,20 228:10 234:11 ,17 235:18 235:21 245:13 246:6 252:12,16 252:18 253:1 ,5 ,9

258:12 277:14,15 281:9 283:19,21 285:18 289:20,22 291:12 292:3 **condition** 45:2 113:1 ,20 118:11 120:21 168:2 **conditioned** 149:8 ,9 149:18 151:1 **conditioner** 119:7 ,8 121:9,13 139:12 155:14 **conditioners** 121:19 155:10 **conditioning** 8:15 8:20 120:8 ,22 121:3 139:11 155:9,15 **conditions** 79:3 ,15 80:12 88:14 **conduct** 127:15 **conducted** 34:17 205:22 251:18 252:10 256:8 **conducting** 32:4 **conducts** 251:16 256:5 **confidently** 154:12 **confirm** 133:9 290:13 **conflict** 290:14 **confused** 40:7 238:4 **confusing** 59:6 **Conley** 163:14 **connected** 150:18 152:20 205:5 **connection** 4:18 150:18 **connector** 170:18 171:10 **connectors** 162:12 170:2 **conscientious** 279:10 **Conservation** 4:5 **consider** 12:10 73:17 82:11 125:9 125:15 137:9 144:11 151:20 154:4 156:22 158:11 160:6 161:1 162:12,14 162:14 169:20 172:10 188:1 **considerably** 180:18 185:4

**consideration** 7:3 43:11 53:12 151:10 153:18 167:8 252:2 258:11 285:2,6 **considerations** 75:11 135:11 160:18 162:2 **considered** 43:6 56:13 ,14 73:13 ,14 74:14 82:4 99:1 112:22 113:2 114:5 116:19 117:3 125:12 128:20 132:15 ,16 151:18 161:9,12 175:7 180:5 204:16 253:7 265:20 273:20 292:16 **considering** 74:18 101:18 102:18 127:7 151:2 154:10 180:6 182:11 **considers** 66:4 **consist** 234:8 **consisted** 28:18 **consistent** 116:20 125:1 212:10 214:13 **constant** 18:17 146:12 227:13 **constraint** 277:11 **construction** 65:18 65:20 66:7 69:22 70:2,8,9,11 ,19 71:2 95:19 96:1 101:2 138:12 157:19 173:16,16 173:18 174:19 176:12,13 178:19 188:2 230:15 231:8 ,10 232:3 ,10 277:6 **constructions** 176:15 **consultants** 55:10 154:2 177:11 **consulting** 9:15 21:9 195:2 **consumer** 26:9,14 65:3 ,5 ,14,16 66:15 69:7 ,12 144:13 ,14 146:3 ,4 167:11 179:5

213:11 214:19 220:16 225:2 227:12 231:3 240:5 ,20 244:22 266:13 ,14,17 ,18 266:19 269:11 ,15 **consumer's** 26:12 **consumers** 12:1 14:22 67:2 126:17 202:14 217:9,10 225:4 228:9 230:22 243:13 ,17 254:7 267:18 269:5 ,18 274:10 275:11 **consumers'** 145:8 **consumption** 24:10 73:11 75:15 78:19 78:21 106:8 107:3 118:13 ,18 124:14 132:14,18 133:18 135:6 144:19 180:21 198:9 259:7 **consumptive** 57:9 57:11 59:9,12,20 59:21 **contact** 5:1 **content** 6:4 13:9 15:8 17:20 39:2 229:21 253:16 **contention** 141:3 **continue** 12:10 73:3 73:5 ,8 291:17 **continued** 292:1 **contractor** 47:10 48:1 65:16,22 66:14 67:17 ,20 68:2 70:18 ,18 101:5 281:1 **contractors** 8:15 47:2 67:8 71:20 72:9 167:8 278:22 279:4,5 ,9 280:11 **contradictory** 211:13 **contradicts** 152:14 216:15 **control** 25:9 **controls** 10:8 57:13 58:8 59:2 74:18 74:21 75:1 ,2 205:1 219:14 276:10 **conventional** 182:1 **conversion** 254:1 ,20 254:21 255:1 ,6,6 255:12,13 256:15 256:16,18 ,21 259:15 ,16 **conversions** 254:21 **convert** 256:22 **converted** 85:18 **convinced** 100:11 283:9 288:8 **cooling** 119:9 120:3 120:6,13 122:11 **copper** 23:10 211:9 **copy** 17:12 136:13 **Corey** 276:9 283:16 **corner** 281:10 **correct** 34:2 58:12 60:19 81:1 84:8 87:12,14 97:12 99:5 101:21 105:6 105:10 108:12 110:14 114:1 121:20 133:3 ,11 134:2,5 147:4,6 151:3 ,4 153:7 155:11 164:10 189:15 190:1 192:2 194:1 195:16 197:3 198:15 ,16 200:1 219:4,11 ,12 221:7 237:18 249:8 ,9 267:22 **corrections** 88:7 **corrective** 89:8 **correctly** 43:20 45:21 161:9 164:6 268:10 **correlated** 286:15 **correlation** 155:13 202:6 **corrosive-resistant** 23:12 **Cory** 3:11 10:8 **cost** 21:16 28:12 30:18 31:14 33:11 33:20 34:2,6 35:7 35:9,15 ,18 ,22 36:8 ,19 37:11 ,14 37:18 38:6,8,9,11 40:6 41:15 60:4 67:14 99:18 101:3 101:11 104:6 126:14 144:4,11 144:17 147:11 ,17 147:19 148:14The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 302 157:16 160:6,10 166:7 ,14,17 170:13 171:5 ,6,15 171:18 172:22 173:7 ,8,8,10,11 175:10,14 178:2 178:21 179:4,6 185:5 186:6,17 ,21 187:11 ,12,13 ,18 188:5 ,10 189:4 190:15 191:1 ,17 192:4 196:9 198:12 202:20 203:15 208:7 209:3 213:15 224:17 225:11 226:7 241:5 254:12 266:13 ,14 266:18 ,18 ,19 267:2 269:11 ,12 275:2,19,22 283:21 290:2 **costly** 168:20 **costs** 6:11 27:14,19 30:17 35:5 ,11 45:12 65:11 69:16 73:12 131:22 132:9 143:22 144:9,11 ,15 ,18 145:5 146:5 ,7 147:9,9,18 ,21 148:3 ,4 156:11 ,11 156:18 ,20 157:5 157:12,16 158:4 159:15 160:17 161:5 166:11 169:16 170:8 171:8 ,15 173:2,12 173:22 174:9,13 174:15 175:2,8,18 178:20 179:4,5 ,10 179:16,17 185:21 187:10,16,20 188:22 190:21 197:16 198:13 ,14 199:11 203:17 204:12,14,15 ,18 205:13 ,15 ,16,17 208:9,15 ,16,19 213:7 224:18 225:15 226:5 ,8,12 226:14,15 ,17 ,22 227:1 ,4,17 ,19 231:4 241:5 244:21 253:18 254:1 ,6,20,21 ,21 255:1 ,4,12,13

256:15 ,16,22 259:5 ,15 ,17 265:17 266:15 ,22 267:3 ,5 268:1 ,3 269:16 275:7 ,14 278:18 284:2,4 287:15 **Coughlin** 260:17 **Council** 226:2 **Counsel's** 9:18 **count** 79:19 138:3 **counter-intuitive** 214:6,9 216:7 241:17 **counting** 267:6 **countries** 210:3 **country** 10:22 226:9 268:18 284:9 **couple** 88:12 111:17 194:11 218:10 233:2 249:15 263:15 **couple-year** 237:22 **course** 6:21 265:11 **court** 248:16 **courts** 248:17 **cover** 65:10 69:14 225:15 226:4 **covered** 72:17 229:3 256:12 257:18 277:2 292:16 **CPSC** 46:15 **CPVC** 165:20 227:21 **cracks** 17:15 **create** 37:19 244:20 245:7 **created** 36:8 ,18 47:19 57:8 219:9 219:16 **creates** 30:15 **creating** 47:9,12 220:10 **credible** 285:7 **credit** 216:2,3 **credits** 223:1 **criteria** 19:7 24:22 76:20 137:9 189:8 195:19,21 218:2 **critical** 202:16 209:2 **Crown** 3:9 8:8 9:4 13:14,15 14:1 193:21 283:3 **crude** 114:21 **crunch** 244:12

**cumulative** 60:12 249:7 251:8 **curiosity** 128:18 **curious** 32:19 69:1 81:8 116:16 128:3 150:5 ,11 215:1 ,3 258:5 273:19 **current** 80:8 81:21 87:2 90:16 93:13 96:22 99:11 103:18 143:1 167:20 217:10 218:6 220:5 223:1 271:1 **currently** 56:20,22 57:7 76:16 77:15 87:12 101:21 133:1 276:3 293:10 **curve** 37:15 40:6 98:1 **curves** 21:16 31:15 36:8 ,19 38:7 **Custom** 101:7 **customer** 25:15 26:4,5 53:21 279:13 ,14 281:4 **customers** 41:10,16 41:19 186:19 281:20 290:4 291:18 **customized** 67:6 **cutoff** 257:4,8 **CVAC** 75:4 **cycle** 6:10 143:22 144:4,8,11 145:5 187:16 198:12 199:10 202:12,19 203:9 209:3 211:3 224:14 228:16 249:13 260:4,6 265:18 **Cymbalsky** 2:4 4:11 4:12,13 7:19 9:19 9:19 10:13 ,17 ,18 13:10,10,18 15:11 15:11 ,14 16:7 17:1 ,5 ,13 ,21 18:7 18:21 19:6,16 20:9 21:2 50:11 51:2 52:17 55:3 59:5 69:3 83:22 83:22 85:2,10 86:5 ,9 105:13 153:21 154:9,22 156:2 185:20

186:3 190:2 192:17 193:2,5 ,9 194:18 196:22 197:4,14,19 202:21 203:13 229:7 238:9 244:2 244:16 245:3 246:9,15 247:5 248:9,12 249:9,12 249:15 ,20 259:22 261:1 ,21 262:2 263:4,17 264:11 264:16,21 265:22 266:5 ,8,17 267:4 269:9,17 270:1 271:11 272:11 ,22 273:9 274:7 275:16 276:4 284:22 285:9,12 292:10,11 293:18 **D D**  3:6 4:1 **D.C** 4:7 49:14 **Damodaran** 213:14 **Darlington** 2:8 9:16 9:16 26:3 37:2 38:19 40:10 43:17 44:2 45:11 46:2 53:22 61:21 62:21 63:3 ,7 ,12 **data** 31:1 ,5 36:12 39:19 40:2 46:8 46:16 49:1 51:13 51:20 52:13 54:22 55:5 ,7 ,8,11 56:2 57:6 67:9,14,18 67:19,21 ,21 ,22 68:1 ,10,13 ,15 69:2 72:10 74:8 75:5 76:9 77:8 ,13 77:18 79:15 ,16,18 79:18 81:10,13 82:21 86:3 ,3 ,7 ,8 86:20 97:19 98:2 98:3 ,9,9,11 100:12 102:20 103:14,15 106:2 108:4 109:13 ,16 110:22 111:11 114:5 ,10 115:8 116:3 ,22 135:6 136:8 139:2,3 140:16 141:18 146:10,10,13 148:14,15 153:16

153:21 ,22 154:1 155:5 ,8,16,19,20 155:21 162:6,19 162:20 172:22 178:9 183:4,6,12 184:1 ,17 193:16 194:4,15 ,19 195:7 199:22 200:7 204:17 ,17 205:18 206:1 207:11 ,16 207:21 209:6,8,20 209:21 210:6,7 ,11 210:18 211:7 ,13 211:15 213:13 216:8 ,15 217:14 217:18 218:15 220:22 223:16,17 223:19 224:9 227:14,16 228:6 231:12,22 232:2,2 232:4,5 233:15 234:3 ,12,15 235:3 235:8 ,9,17 ,19,20 239:15 240:15 241:7 ,11 245:4 247:1 251:20 252:4 284:16,21 284:22 285:4,6 288:5 291:22 **databases** 28:3 251:22 **date** 18:19 20:4 154:5 **dated** 205:22 **David** 292:14 **Davidson-Hood** 2:10 10:6,7 **day** 6:16 139:18 282:10 **days** 16:16 17:10 154:12 282:12 293:13 **DC** 1:8 **de-rating** 25:8 **deadline** 15:18 16:4 16:22 **deal** 26:9 47:18 50:9 288:21 **dealing** 239:16 **dealt** 292:21 **death** 280:12 282:2 **debating** 55:14 **debt** 215:17 **debts** 215:11 **December** 20:5The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 303 271:19,20 **decide** 291:10 **deciding** 12:21 **decimal** 268:12,13 **decision** 16:5 19:22 20:14 48:7 279:11 281:2 283:1 **decisions** 156:4 **deck** 11:6 **declining** 201:12 202:3 204:5 ,10 263:9,19,20 **decrease** 93:21 94:8 103:2 110:21 147:3 236:6 237:9 237:19 242:21 243:5 255:21 266:15 **decreased** 94:11 157:2 **decreases** 238:2,18 242:1 ,12 **decreasing** 146:15 147:1 242:7 **deep** 290:2 **default** 93:2 **defer** 130:19 282:18 **define** 30:8 82:9 123:9 124:2,14 248:18 257:5 **defined** 248:5 **definite** 284:6 **definitely** 46:19 63:4 84:17 85:6 115:22 160:16 **definition** 32:15 122:19 145:19 256:11 **degrade** 226:16 **degree** 79:16,17 103:14,15 105:19 **degrees** 89:7 ,12,20 90:3 94:19,20 105:21 **deliver** 277:17 **delivered** 78:9 272:18 292:20 **deluxe** 72:1 **demand** 124:7 243:1 **demolition** 231:19 **demonstrate** 111:12 **density** 41:12 **Department** 1:1 ,5 2:1 3:12 10:3 12:17 14:3 19:22 22:5 91:14 228:22

246:18 277:18 279:8 **departments** 280:3 **depend** 65:6 **depending** 22:17 26:4,8,12 63:17 80:9 112:5 119:1 155:20 162:3 ,4,5 184:5 ,5 185:16 286:17 287:4 **depends** 25:22 112:4 118:22 **depleted** 199:13 **depower** 25:9 **depths** 215:8 **derived** 76:19 98:8 125:20 231:12 232:9 **describe** 59:18 79:4 88:13 90:9 95:4 213:22 230:19 **described** 50:17 78:18 80:10 93:22 217:19 219:7 230:11 231:16 233:3 ,7 ,14 244:18 244:19 **describes** 94:1 **describing** 65:12 74:5 75:7 107:11 147:20 209:8 **description** 178:14 **design** 18:12 19:1 27:21 56:19,22 62:3 64:4 77:11 181:8 209:15 **designed** 76:22 181:12 252:16 277:16 **designs** 206:4 **desire** 240:5 **desired** 239:18 **detail** 11:6 70:5 73:20 74:5 76:11 78:14 82:7 90:10 93:19 102:9 107:12 122:7 ,16 125:8 126:14 131:4,20 144:20 147:13 ,20 156:9 157:20 161:18 209:9 214:1 ,14 216:18 217:20 230:20 232:19 233:2 247:15 **detailed** 214:4

250:12 **details** 66:8 161:22 172:7 183:9 200:8 206:7 ,14 215:6 217:21 229:6 233:17 234:20,21 238:3 **determination** 28:11 75:7 148:20 **determinations** 166:6 **determine** 19:11 27:18 30:16 62:13 64:7 65:2 73:10 74:3 ,11 75:9 80:6 90:10 131:5 209:22 213:6 257:16 **determined** 29:12 29:13 ,22 30:16 34:21 74:1 ,10 95:10 184:14 210:4 **determining** 65:5 74:2 213:8 228:7 **develop** 239:14 288:17 **developed** 24:5 84:2 182:14 209:10 255:5 260:15 ,17 264:22 **developing** 35:4 **development** 75:5 217:16 255:3 **diagonally** 159:5 ,9 **dial** 101:10 **dialogue** 290:5 **died** 282:2,3 ,12 **differed** 57:3 **difference** 31:20 48:13 62:4 64:3 69:18 71:3 81:4 81:13 86:7 89:19 90:5 91:12 107:16 110:22 117:13 192:8 212:4 231:11 232:9 237:5 ,14 **differences** 57:4 62:5 107:14 117:17 180:13 183:3 218:9 **different** 12:19 18:4 20:2 22:6,13 ,20 23:6 29:7 31:11 31:13 33:12 34:6

42:7 57:19 59:20 62:12 77:4 83:20 86:9 87:11 93:13 100:13 101:8 103:12 113:14 114:6 121:18 142:7 145:22 152:21 156:6 158:9,16 170:6,15 182:16,18 199:3 200:13 201:17 204:6,16,20,21 207:20 210:2 211:10 213:7 215:8 ,17 217:7 ,20 219:8 226:1 227:19 230:18 234:4 235:12 237:3 241:8 244:17 245:4 246:5 250:5 258:7 264:3 276:19 287:15 288:15 292:8 **differential** 171:18 190:15 191:21 **differentials** 208:21 **differentiate** 123:22 149:9 **differentiating** 151:17 152:1 **differently** 91:15 142:14 **difficulty** 48:15 **dig** 83:11 134:15 168:12 **digest** 16:17 **digestible** 16:21 **digging** 71:12 281:16 **dioxide** 260:10 **direct** 46:15 67:14 79:11 148:16 158:3 166:8 174:5 177:10,15 251:7 **directed** 17:10 181:15 260:20 265:5 **direction** 101:6 286:4 **directly** 33:7 67:2 152:18 ,20 159:6 289:13 290:3 **directories** 217:15 217:21 222:12 **directory** 50:14

52:3 125:21 ,21 127:20 131:1 132:4 133:9 142:8 236:2 277:21 280:2,18 **disaggregate** 75:17 **disaggregated** 222:14 223:15 234:4 **disaggregation** 222:11 **disagreeing** 51:19 **disallowed** 18:17 **disclosed** 31:5 **disconnect** 113:3 167:2 **discount** 209:4 213:5 ,5 214:6,21 215:6,13 ,18 216:12,22 228:8 267:19,20 268:9 **discounted** 245:1 **discuss** 82:11 126:13 199:17 237:2 270:2 **discussed** 75:4 122:10 144:19 146:6,8 166:19 225:20 253:17 255:15 258:6 259:3 ,7 263:1 **discussing** 29:3 145:1 ,18 182:13 **discussion** 102:15 187:16 195:22 284:11 **discussions** 61:22 **disperse** 186:21 **display** 57:22 220:15 ,17 255:16 **displayed** 255:18 **disposal** 156:17 **disposition** 50:13 ,15 59:17 **disproportionately** 225:4 251:5 252:8 256:6 **disrepair** 52:21 **disrupt** 252:12 **dissembles** 30:12 31:17 **distance** 158:15 ,20 159:9,21 **distinguish** 75:19 **distinguishes** 65:17The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 304 **distribution** 23:1 ,2 23:5 26:22 27:2 54:8 65:6,9,12 66:5 ,11 ,17 ,21 67:3 ,7 99:17 100:7 101:22 102:3 ,8,14,16 104:3 105:15 110:12,16 133:1 156:21 157:1 159:10 209:12 217:2,16 231:15 245:8 252:15 253:2 277:8 ,11 281:10 **distributions** 66:22 145:2,13 210:9 217:1 222:8 230:13 **distributor** 68:1 **dive** 15:20 **divide** 79:21 107:7 198:18 **divided** 78:2,17 134:10 230:14 **Division** 200:6 223:16 **docket** 17:15 20:22 292:20 **docket's** 293:22 **document** 16:17 25:18 46:8 61:3 62:16 64:6 80:16 118:17 133:22 214:5 276:12 277:3 281:15 **DOE** 2:4,5 4:14 5:2 9:17 ,19 11:14 12:6,10 13:11 18:4,9 19:9 20:7 20:13 21:17 22:8 22:16 23:3 24:5 24:16,20 25:5 27:16,17 ,20,21 28:16,19 29:17 ,20 30:12 31:8 ,9,13 31:17 ,19 32:2,5 36:18 38:8 ,22 40:12,17 50:11 55:3 56:13 ,18 57:5 ,8,10 59:5 60:2 65:17 66:4 66:15 ,18 ,20 67:8 67:16,17 ,20 68:19 69:8 71:7 73:13 73:17 75:20 76:9 84:1 85:3 98:13

106:8 ,11 ,13 ,17 107:3 118:4,7 125:15 ,16,20 127:5 135:18 ,22 141:18 143:8 155:22 186:15 190:11 193:21 194:1 ,5 ,14 195:1 195:5 203:4 204:16 206:4 212:13 225:3 ,5 228:9,12 232:13 249:22 251:15 252:10 253:7 ,10 254:2,19,20 255:5 255:10,20 256:5 ,7 256:9,20 258:22 259:8 260:1 ,20 286:1 289:8 292:1 292:15 **DOE's** 39:6 48:6 154:10 195:7 220:12 225:10 256:14 275:5 **doing** 7:6 12:18 13:1 51:17 59:1 63:18 102:8 103:18 109:7 117:16 139:7 162:1 163:14 171:14 172:12 187:14 191:15 201:11 220:2 264:13 268:10 271:6 286:10 291:13 **dollar** 60:19 198:18 216:4 **dollars** 104:4 185:2 187:21 190:22 208:6 240:20 255:11 265:8 267:15 268:1 ,2 282:14 **domestic** 106:9 135:20 257:22 **dominated** 286:11 **Don** 2:20 8:12 16:10 **door** 239:19 **doors** 27:5 **double** 241:14 267:6 **Doug** 2:3 4:8 ,12 15:19 229:1 **downs** 28:1 ,18 ,22 31:9,16,18 ,19 32:4 34:16 37:5 40:5 61:11 **downstream** 38:12 **downward** 50:21 **Dr** 112:12 **draft** 38:10,11 ,14 39:12 41:3 42:9 110:8 126:2,3 130:6,10,17 131:3 131:11 ,12,14,20 132:3 135:21 141:2,21 142:16 142:18 143:3 ,6 162:17 205:4 208:7 286:6 **dramatic** 42:16 286:16 **drill** 190:9 **drive** 39:11 41:19 46:1 141:5 142:5 180:20 234:5 283:22 **driven** 35:16,18 45:3 **driver** 103:7 ,9 **drivers** 57:13 259:16 **driving** 35:10 284:2 **drop** 181:22 241:2 285:7 **dryers** 239:10 **ducks** 283:7 **due** 35:13 36:1 56:19 57:4 87:19 103:21 165:4 171:17 254:6,12 274:10 **dug** 72:6 **dumb** 190:10 **dumbs** 190:11 **durability** 253:5 **duty** 244:3 **dwellings** 83:1 **E E**  4:1 ,1 **earlier** 54:7 80:10 93:22 113:19 140:14 194:9 219:3 229:2 231:16 244:19 245:6 271:19 286:5 289:17 292:12 **early** 288:2 **earned** 244:4

**easily** 84:19 **EBIT** 256:17 **economic** 11:8 67:19,20 68:14 145:7 201:16,17 202:2 265:19 266:11 ,22 267:3 269:16,19 284:7 **economically** 247:18 283:13 291:14 **economics** 203:16 **economies** 34:8 **economy** 202:4 274:12,14 **Edison** 3:8 8:17 12:15 57:16 80:13 127:1 133:19 200:9 213:17 214:15 221:3 261:6 270:11 **EEI** 58:9,14 61:1 62:14 63:15 68:8 68:22 81:3 103:5 105:7 108:8 109:10 118:15 119:19 121:17 128:14 139:5 140:7 146:18 150:1 ,22 155:3 167:17 203:2 204:3 215:21 221:11 225:19 237:12 240:17 243:10 249:6 258:4 263:13 264:1 267:7 271:16 **EF** 87:18 **effect** 119:1 127:6 142:4 287:4 291:8 **effective** 41:16 127:14 **effectiveness** 60:4 **efficiencies** 21:20 23:15 210:9 217:6 217:7 ,12 287:9 **efficiency** 8:16 15:3 16:19 22:18 23:4 23:21 24:7 27:1 27:15 ,16,17 ,18 28:9,19 29:5 ,8,21 30:2 31:9,15 32:4 33:4 34:17 ,20 35:7 ,9 36:8 ,19 37:13 ,14,18 ,21

38:7 ,14 39:21 40:6,18 55:7 57:3 65:4 69:17 73:11 74:2,7 76:22 77:13 79:1 ,2,14 82:22 94:10,13 95:13 105:11 107:9,15 ,17 108:17 ,17 109:18 110:15 111:2,20 112:15 113:5 ,10 125:15 127:5 ,7 132:17 135:22 141:2 145:1 156:19 157:2 162:18 164:9 171:14 173:4 184:21 187:21 192:20 198:9 210:1 212:20 217:1 ,2,17 220:3 222:8 228:2,10,11 228:13 230:12 234:11 ,14 235:18 240:3 244:11 245:8 253:6,9 255:4 273:15 277:15 281:12 283:10 286:17 287:17 291:7 **efficient** 29:18 47:11 57:22 69:12 125:17 219:8 225:11 227:17 **effort** 265:1 276:11 276:13 278:16 **EIA** 48:18 84:1 183:6 202:22 203:3 206:12 **EIH** 201:21 **EISA** 18:3 ,10 90:17 152:12 199:22 **EISAR** 90:18 **either** 15:2 48:21 83:18 89:15 97:19 104:4 108:22 136:11 ,16 137:3 155:9 167:1 174:2 196:15 205:2 220:4 239:17 271:19 **EL** 245:15 ,17 **EL3** 133:22 134:4 134:12,20 **elaborate** 42:21The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 305 43:2 **elasticity** 231:2 233:11 ,13 ,17 237:10 238:2,18 238:22 239:1 ,7 ,20 242:1 ,6,10,18 **electric** 3:8 8:18 12:16 18:14 22:9 57:17 70:8 75:22 80:14 114:8 119:15 124:13 127:2 133:20 139:16 200:10 213:18 214:16 221:4 261:7 ,11 269:4 270:5 ,12 278:3 **electric-using** 130:17 **electrical** 74:13 78:11 80:7 118:8 122:4,4 123:5 ,7 124:16 156:16 176:4,8 180:21 **electricity** 73:15 74:10,14 75:14,19 87:18 88:6 118:3 118:4 125:8 130:5 132:18 133:17 182:17 198:15 201:2,10 259:7 268:21 269:6 272:7 **electronic** 58:8 **eliciting** 276:6 **eliminating** 14:17 **email** 5:12 17:15 293:14,16,20 **emailing** 17:2 **emissions** 260:2,4,6 260:9,13 ,15 ,16,21 261:2,12 262:5 ,19 265:2 267:11 268:8 ,20 269:11 269:18 ,22 **emphasis** 164:12 277:4 **employee** 84:1 **employees** 257:8 ,9 **employment** 6:16 251:7 270:3 274:8 274:21 ,22 **encourage** 12:10 **energies** 104:16 **energy** 1:1 ,5 2:1 3:1 4:5 6:7 8:10,16 12:1 ,5 ,7 24:10

42:3 64:22 73:5 ,9 73:10,12,14 74:3 74:8 75:6,15 76:12 78:8 ,9 82:12 91:7 ,14 96:17 97:14 100:21 102:14,15 102:20 103:1 ,3 104:3 105:16 106:8 ,9 108:5 110:12,13 111:1 ,4 112:9 113:5 ,10,17 114:14,22 115:8 115:10 117:19 118:18 120:18 122:10,11 124:14 132:10,13 ,17 135:3 ,6 136:4 144:18 ,19 151:18 179:11 ,12 180:21 182:7 ,8,9,12 183:8 ,11 200:4,5 201:8 ,12 203:10 203:11 ,16 206:18 217:17 218:1 221:6,10 223:4 225:12,14 226:17 230:9 234:15 ,15 243:3 244:8 247:13 248:3 ,4,18 249:2,3 250:3 ,3 ,8 265:20 274:11 278:5 285:21 **engineer** 11:7 **engineering** 6:6 21:11 ,15 22:1 23:3 24:20 25:12 27:9,14,22 28:7 29:16 31:14 33:8 34:14 39:2,22 40:1 ,5 57:1 131:5 204:18 252:5 253:19 259:7 **engineers** 280:5 **England** 207:4 268:19 **entire** 124:4 255:9 **entities** 216:11 **entity** 257:9 **environment** 8:16 78:10 **environmental** 6:15 260:2 **EPA** 9:2 211:2 212:13 260:15 262:13 271:8 ,13

272:10 292:1 **EPA's** 271:2 **EPCA** 18:2 19:8 **equal** 123:18 126:12,15 131:14 250:3 ,7 276:13 **equation** 78:19 107:10 108:2 112:1 118:8 123:3 235:22 **equations** 112:2 122:2 124:10 145:9 **equipment** 4:14 44:22 45:1 46:3 65:10,13 66:13 69:10 79:9,10,11 87:20 88:7 ,8 90:1 90:4 91:19 95:6 97:1 ,2 102:2 103:22 106:20 107:19 108:11 109:12,22 110:19 111:2 126:8 145:9 148:2 167:2 176:5 179:18 206:20 207:17 ,21 210:1 ,9 210:12 225:15 226:5 241:9 242:15 254:22 273:15 277:17 278:3 ,6 290:4 **equipped** 38:4 56:16 **equity** 215:8 ,11 **Eric** 2:5 9:17 17:11 46:7 **error** 133:22 **errors** 268:11 **ESAEVE** 87:17 **escalating** 182:11 **especially** 53:21 120:1 127:9 146:19 170:7 180:8 201:4 216:8 221:16 271:9 **essence** 14:16 186:18 191:19 **essentially** 41:19 105:14 130:5 173:9 187:8 **establish** 287:20 **established** 18:7 57:5 88:3 **estimate** 38:9 48:20 66:17 97:11 117:4 120:20 161:5 168:17 232:8 235:13 236:4,5 251:3 255:6 **estimated** 30:17 61:8 ,9,10 102:22 104:15 208:7 217:18 232:6 235:15 255:10 263:3 **estimates** 12:7 31:19 61:21 235:12 253:22 254:20 255:20 256:15 ,20 259:8 259:16 261:4 **estimating** 176:13 228:8 **et** 140:22 221:18 260:14 **Europe** 210:3 **Europeans** 212:8 **evaluate** 252:7 **evaluated** 59:16 225:5 **evaluates** 225:3 **evaluation** 145:7 **event** 176:16 197:4 **eventually** 59:1 237:20 **everybody** 6:19 196:6 224:4 293:1 **everyone's** 5:3 **everything's** 87:6 291:4 **exact** 133:18 148:22 168:12 **exactly** 43:3 45:22 100:5 124:22 193:15 197:18 221:9 265:16 **examine** 251:6 **example** 31:22 43:19 49:13 57:21 58:1 71:5 80:1 109:4 111:7 114:8 125:17 136:11 138:13 157:2 160:5 ,14 166:15 168:3 172:4 175:12 178:17 180:10 186:12 187:10 191:9 209:22 210:3 212:21 213:1 220:15 230:12

260:8 267:22 **Excel** 145:14 **excellent** 7:22 **excerpt** 136:14 **exchanger** 22:20 23:12 32:1 35:12 35:14,17 ,21 ,22 181:13 ,21 206:12 286:3 **exchangers** 23:17 36:1 258:13 **exclude** 269:10 **excuse** 190:20 **Executive** 249:22 **exercise** 61:17 **exist** 273:6 279:12 **existing** 14:11 15:2 41:20 55:22 77:12 79:1 ,2,5 88:16 108:6 162:16 230:16 232:14 271:5 291:8 **exit** 52:12 **expand** 246:22 **expect** 142:14 **expectancy** 212:4,9 **expected** 38:13 65:21 **expecting** 68:17 **expenses** 67:14 69:14 **expensive** 15:4 59:2 **experience** 54:11 ,18 176:21 183:20 256:21 **expertise** 84:3 **explain** 117:18 137:6 186:13 191:4 215:4 242:1 257:4 **explanation** 191:6 **extend** 16:5 154:13 288:5 **extension** 16:8 ,12 16:16 17:9 19:18 153:18 154:10 289:1 290:17 293:15 ,20 **extensions** 19:20 20:22 **extent** 14:18 41:5 143:9 212:3 239:16 267:4 277:2 283:15 ,17 283:20 293:5The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 306 **extra** 63:20 176:6,8 274:10,15 **extraction** 260:7 **extrapolate** 32:20 33:5 **extrapolation** 221:8 221:10 **extremely** 47:21 **eyes** 238:7 **F fabrication**  31:12 **faced** 251:9 **facing** 226:6 **fact** 39:11 51:10,15 52:19 56:19 142:16 165:4 185:7 289:16 **factor** 45:18 77:14 77:16 83:15 90:16 90:19 93:9,9 111:19 113:4 121:3 136:21 146:21 220:11 236:1 243:4 261:19 **factored** 19:19 96:15 120:18 184:16 **factors** 19:8 ,9,11 74:4,9 79:6 93:8 93:10,19 105:19 107:13 112:15 115:6 121:3 124:21 153:11 183:1 ,2,5 ,8,8,11 260:15 262:16 265:19 283:1 **Fahrenheit** 89:7 **failed** 204:16 **fair** 39:1 154:22 186:15 284:18 **fairly** 17:5 ,14 19:2 51:21 118:21 165:4 169:17 217:3 **fall** 17:14 246:1 **false** 197:10 **familiar** 19:3 82:21 **families** 282:9 **family** 80:2 **fan** 38:8 ,9 120:8 125:20 141:19 163:7 **fan-inducted** 54:15 **fans** 38:4,5 141:14 141:16,17 142:5

**far** 7:22 26:21 44:6 46:15 48:5 50:10 52:2,9 73:1 207:14 211:21 277:19 **Farrell** 2:20 8:12,12 16:10,10 17:4 **faster** 226:10 **feasible** 25:1 247:18 **feature** 130:16 **features** 239:18 **February** 194:8 **fed** 28:8 **federal** 14:21 29:5 56:20 76:16 141:4 213:11 293:16,18 **Feds** 216:15 **feedback** 57:7 71:19 71:21 116:10 117:9 130:22 152:5 ,8 177:19 178:9 180:4,7 181:2 191:5 ,7 208:3 212:17 219:21 228:5 240:15 255:8 258:9,12 289:11 **feel** 11:1 ,9 14:10,14 16:21 41:2 281:15 291:22 **feet** 99:19 **fewer** 207:14 **FFC** 260:16 **field** 10:8 39:9 47:3 54:11 ,18 79:3 80:12 88:14 91:14 94:10,13 ,22 135:11 181:9 249:12 253:2 276:10 287:1 **Fieldcontrols** 3:11 **figure** 22:22 240:9 246:12 **filed** 19:20 **filings** 251:21 **filter** 117:17 **final** 13:1 ,2 14:7 15:7 18:9 20:5 ,7 20:12,14 72:14 132:13 148:16,16 156:5 194:8 272:10 276:6 290:8 292:9 **finalizes** 224:14 271:13 **finally** 103:17

126:16 206:9 228:15 231:13 233:5 235:22 253:4 **Finances** 213:12 **Financial** 67:18 **find** 11:16 14:6 48:2 52:14 63:8 73:11 93:1 109:5 118:16 211:15 270:17 ,22 **finger** 52:13 **finished** 149:7 200:4 **finite** 277:11 **firing** 117:14 122:21 124:3 ,7 **first** 29:15 36:7 ,12 36:15 37:4 47:3 60:13 70:14 75:12 75:18 88:14 94:1 97:13 102:19 105:14 137:7 138:9 144:7 146:3 147:15 ,19 150:4 150:15 151:10 156:10 158:10 162:3 ,12 173:5 175:9 182:9,21 198:13 ,14 226:11 227:2 230:17 234:7 252:11 254:3 255:18 293:21 **fit** 81:20 240:11 **five** 12:8 19:1 237:19 **fix** 56:6 104:6 **fixed** 69:15 104:7 ,12 284:4 **flat** 201:9,12 202:2 202:8 203:10,10 204:5 ,9 **flexible** 184:6 **flip** 143:1 ,5 **floor** 89:13 150:4,5 150:9,15 ,20,21 158:10,17 184:4 286:7 **flooring** 100:1 **floors** 77:9 158:19 184:4 **flow** 20:9 66:1 144:8 175:19 181:12,21 182:2 251:12 274:12 **flowed** 266:19

**flows** 113:22 **flue** 14:18 41:6 46:14 55:20 165:18 174:1 190:20 **focus** 7:10 249:4 **focused** 22:16 246:20 286:3 **focusing** 84:17 **folder** 20:22 **folks** 4:22 **follow** 52:17 78:19 169:2 199:20 **follow-up** 86:1 155:18 **following** 5:20 77:5 106:13 156:12 204:19 262:8 **follows** 95:18 **foot** 99:22 **footage** 75:16 77:7 232:3 **force** 15:2 289:20 **force-draft** 125:19 **forced** 110:8 132:3 141:21 205:3 291:15 **forced-draft** 163:7 **forecast** 253:19 270:7 271:14 **Forestal** 4:7 **forgive** 61:4 **forgot** 94:18 **form** 200:6 274:12 **formalized** 153:20 **former** 84:1 **formula** 107:4,6 **Forrestal** 1:6 **forward** 18:4 19:11 42:13 154:20 202:21 294:1 **fossil** 201:3 **found** 38:11 56:15 62:2 146:11 250:6 289:9 **foundation** 77:8 **foundries** 287:9,10 **foundry** 283:12 284:1 **four** 20:10 49:16 102:17 132:15 ,16 138:14 171:4 252:11 256:13 **four-bedroom** 85:19 **fraction** 92:18

98:20 101:22 102:10 108:13 109:22 110:18 117:1 126:20,21 133:8 135:8 ,19 141:1 150:14,19 152:22 162:7 ,8 163:2,11 165:4,7 165:19,20 166:13 170:21 173:6,9 174:2,22 175:1 ,9 176:1 177:9 178:16 186:9,11 189:16 191:16,20 215:15 222:9,10 227:19 228:1 ,12 232:13 ,16,16 233:5 234:17 235:2,16 236:6,8 236:10 242:9,10 243:5 **fractions** 69:21 ,22 90:10 92:16 114:9 115:20 116:16 119:20 132:2,4,8 135:13 ,21 149:16 162:6 165:11 166:1 ,9 167:16 169:14,16,17 170:3 ,6,9,19 171:3 172:22 173:2 174:7 177:12,17 ,19 178:13 180:8 208:1 222:19 223:18 235:4 **Franco** 2:21 9:12,12 64:18 ,19 65:2 67:12 68:11 ,12 69:5 70:13 73:4,4 73:8 75:4 77:22 78:14 81:1 ,15 ,15 82:6,17 83:2,2 85:21 87:4,14 88:4,12 92:15 93:6,14,18 95:4 96:20 97:12,18 98:4,15 99:5 101:15 102:13 103:10 104:13 105:3 ,6,10 106:7 108:12,20 109:21 110:7 ,11 111:22 113:8 114:1 ,3 116:6,21 118:1 ,3The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 307 118:21 119:5 ,11 119:17 121:7 ,12 121:20 122:1 ,9 123:1 ,13 ,20 124:9 124:19,22 125:5 ,7 127:13 128:5 ,10 128:19 129:2,7 ,11 129:15 ,17 130:21 131:19 132:12 133:3 ,11 ,16 134:2 134:5 135:2,18 137:5 138:5 ,19 139:22 140:10 144:2,3 ,7 145:4 145:17 147:6,15 148:19 150:13 151:3 ,10 152:2,16 153:7 155:11 ,16 156:8 157:15 158:1 ,7 159:18 160:20 161:11 ,17 161:21 164:11 ,16 165:3 ,11 ,14,22 167:13 ,15 168:1 ,5 169:9,13 170:12 171:3 172:2,7 ,16 172:21 173:15 174:12,18 175:7 175:17 177:6 178:5 ,12 179:2,9 180:4 181:1 182:5 184:2 185:9,18 ,22 186:8 187:1 ,5 ,22 189:7 ,15 190:1 191:4,12 192:3 ,11 195:16 196:5 ,8 197:22 198:16 199:15 200:1 ,3 201:14 203:21 204:6,8,11 ,14 205:13 207:6,18 208:9,14 209:1 ,20 212:16 213:4,22 214:11 215:5 216:17 ,21 217:5 218:18 219:4,12 219:19 220:12,20 221:9 222:5 ,7 223:2,14 224:10 224:14 225:2 227:7 ,9 228:5 230:2,6 231:6,22 233:13 ,21 236:13 236:20,22 237:18 238:10,12,19,21 239:4,11 240:12 241:4 242:4,8,14

243:3 ,14,20 246:10,10 **Franco's** 73:3 **Frank** 2:18 8:19 17:7 ,8 26:19,20 32:8 ,9 33:6 34:10 36:3 ,4 38:15 ,16 39:3 ,4 41:1 48:4 50:19 54:7 ,20 60:7 71:9,10 72:11 82:13 83:8 84:16 92:5 ,7 96:11 ,12 97:7 104:1 114:11 ,12 115:16 117:10 120:15 ,16 130:1 ,2 136:5 137:5 139:1 142:11 ,12 168:8 176:10 187:17 208:4 224:3 ,10 236:16 239:6 241:6 245:21 287:22 288:1 290:14 **Frank's** 34:2 51:15 131:13 **Frankly** 276:15 **free** 11:1 ,9 **free-standing** 160:13 **freezing** 178:3 ,7 ,9 **frequencies** 205:18 **frequency** 206:11 **frequently** 205:20 205:21 **front** 47:8 177:13 266:6 **fuel** 12:18 22:6 52:7 73:15 ,15 75:13 ,14 75:18 76:13 ,15 78:19,21 88:6 104:6 106:16 107:3 109:3 ,6 110:13 130:6 132:17 164:3 ,13 197:13 200:19,20 206:10,21 221:16 260:4,6 265:17 270:8 ,15 **fuels** 201:3 203:18 260:8 **full** 26:13 28:16 30:9,11 134:12,19 134:20 224:17 225:11 249:12 260:4,5 265:17

283:14 **fully** 7:16 14:13 225:11 **function** 139:17 231:14 233:3 **functional** 141:7 **funny** 248:14 **furnace** 48:22 49:4 71:13 110:8 ,9 148:15 199:1 207:19 225:20 **furnaces** 32:14 33:17 49:6 148:17 206:9 207:20 **further** 18:11 49:5 53:11 56:3 58:16 66:8 74:5 79:2,7 90:10 95:4 102:9 107:12 108:5 110:1 115:7 122:16 126:13 166:11 191:14 200:8 209:8 233:2 233:14 248:5 **fuzzy** 278:13 **G G**  4:1 **gain** 112:22 113:2 **gains** 92:1 113:6 **gallon** 200:17 ,21 ,21 **gallons** 241:13 **game** 168:3 290:21 **gap** 112:18 **garage** 149:12,12 149:13 151:8 177:15 **garages** 90:11 ,13 149:19 155:7 **garden** 84:20 85:7 **garner** 254:11 **Gary** 3:4 9:6 13:20 15:6 33:22 34:1 40:20,21 54:4,6 98:16,17 99:13 131:7 ,9,16 133:5 133:6 139:1 140:12,13 141:13 142:2 209:16,17 210:15 257:2,3 281:22 290:9,10 **Gary's** 42:5 **gas** 3:6 8:21 9:21 14:18 41:6 48:21 48:21 49:8 52:7 55:20 65:20 75:14

75:18 77:2 95:18 104:17 108:11 109:4,21 114:18 114:19 115:3 ,22 132:5 ,22 136:10 136:17 137:7 ,8 141:6,20 149:17 153:4,8 156:15 163:5 164:3 170:13 173:19 174:4 182:17 197:13 198:20,22 205:1 220:22 221:17 224:20 229:8 232:12 235:8 ,21 236:4 237:4 268:19 270:15 272:17 273:4,7 283:10 284:5 **gas-fired** 14:15 18:13 ,18 ,18 22:14 23:1 ,14 29:11 35:9,15 50:13 70:1 71:5 75:21 76:1 90:12 138:13 138:15 157:6 173:2,11 ,17 174:20 175:4 178:21 198:10 218:3 ,8 222:17 240:19 291:2 **gas-powered** 126:9 **gather** 21:3 **gathering** 71:14 194:5 **geek** 81:3 **general** 9:17 28:6 36:21 ,22 65:21 67:19 70:18 101:2 147:16 258:9 274:17 **generally** 4:20 23:16 58:7 164:4 **generate** 98:14 **generation** 260:8 270:5 ,8 **generator** 117:14 **gentleman** 289:16 **genuinely** 248:19 **geographical** 157:8 **getting** 45:17 46:15 71:19,21 72:7 158:15 181:21 193:10 198:19 232:21 242:17

244:6 **give** 16:20 72:10 95:7 114:15 153:22 154:7 ,14 177:2 184:19 193:14 194:16 212:20 240:9 245:19 291:17 **given** 38:14 43:12 286:8 **gives** 18:22 291:9 **giving** 40:19 **glad** 4:3 10:10,14 17:12 **Glass** 199:9 **global** 266:12 **go** 4:21 5:3 6:3 8:7 11:6,9,11 18:4 19:13 28:12 32:21 37:12 41:3 43:3 44:8 46:4 48:7 51:5 ,16,22 52:6,7 52:16 53:6 58:4 62:11 63:13 70:4 73:20 76:11 78:11 78:14 82:6,19 91:5 95:8 ,9,9,9 98:14 99:8 ,10 101:3 ,18 102:8 116:13 122:15 123:17 127:10 132:6 139:8 142:21 143:7 146:2 147:12 150:15 154:20 156:10 157:20 160:7 161:17 ,21 165:2,11 ,14 166:5 166:15 168:6 169:17 170:9 175:18 176:17 177:1 ,8 179:13 184:18 185:5 ,6,20 186:2 187:2 189:17 190:12,12 190:13 191:13 ,16 198:8 201:8 203:20 212:1 215:5 216:17 217:3 218:10,14 223:7 224:15 227:10 228:3 230:1 233:1 234:20,21 240:19 243:17 244:5The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 308 245:5 247:15 264:18 275:11 278:13 279:19 280:16 281:8 282:8 ,8 283:1 284:19 285:18 289:11 291:10 **goes** 20:7 23:22 42:22 50:20 59:10 130:18 158:20 175:19 195:21 201:22 212:20 214:21 220:18 223:22 248:9 275:4,19 283:10 **GOI** 205:5 **going** 4:10 5:1 ,10 7:5 10:13 ,17 11:6 12:12,21 13:8 14:8 15:3 ,20 17:19,21 20:15 21:10 26:10 34:3 34:5 41:20 43:22 44:14 47:22 48:8 48:20 49:22 53:13 53:22 55:5 56:6,8 58:16 60:21 62:10 65:15 69:5 71:13 72:18 ,22 73:2,3 ,5 73:8 81:8 85:8 95:22 99:3 ,22 100:5 ,13 ,14 101:3 106:4 111:10 114:16 115:4 116:8 120:2,7 124:12 125:2 131:2,6,19,21 139:19 140:19,20 143:10,21 144:3 145:21 ,22 151:19 154:20 156:5 ,8 164:8 168:2,17 ,19 168:20 169:21 170:22 172:22 176:11 ,22 177:1 ,2 177:22 179:10,16 180:20 184:7 185:1 ,4 186:14,19 189:2 192:13 197:21 198:7 199:19,21 200:3 206:20,21 207:4 210:20 211:9 216:19 220:20 221:8 ,21 226:4,12 226:22 227:5 229:19,20 230:1 ,3

236:7 238:8 239:13 ,19 244:2 246:7 247:13 ,15 250:14,15 260:1 261:14,16 262:6 262:16,20 263:7 264:6,9 270:16,20 270:21 271:2,3 ,4 272:1 ,9 275:9,12 275:13 ,15 276:13 277:8 ,14,15 ,17 ,18 278:14 279:8 ,9,17 280:10,13 ,22 281:10 282:9 283:11 ,15 284:1 ,7 284:12,15 285:3 ,6 286:2,2,12 288:9 288:15 289:3 ,18 290:22 292:5 **good** 4:2,18 34:10 45:7 64:18 67:4 73:2 92:10 97:5 97:18 145:21 150:13 152:4 153:22 154:16 155:12 160:22 180:4 201:19 223:12 224:1 229:18 240:11 249:3 267:8 279:4 279:10,16 281:14 292:13 **goods** 274:14 **Gotcha** 168:4 **government** 251:11 273:1 **Grail** 55:6 **grant** 154:11 **graph** 95:5 ,11 ,13 98:5 146:21 209:13 245:15 **graphic** 37:9 237:17 238:5 **graphics** 36:11 38:5 105:8 **graphs** 65:22 **grapple** 248:20 **great** 10:9,14 53:4 64:7 181:1 ,1 189:19,21 216:16 229:18 **greater** 75:15 92:1 103:13 111:13 113:16 124:18 250:7 290:1 **greatest** 279:7

**green** 8:6 34:16 221:1 **Greenhouse** 268:19 **Greg** 9:20 45:17 **Gregory** 3:10 **GRI** 207:11 **grill** 114:20 127:22 **GRIM** 251:11 ,16 252:3 ,6 254:1 ,19 255:17 259:1 ,4 **gross** 254:4,15 **ground** 72:17 **group** 13:16,22 213:20,21 214:7 ,7 214:8 ,10 215:10 215:16 **groups** 52:5 216:1 **grow** 201:17 **growth** 201:16 202:2 222:22 **guarantee** 293:13 **guess** 26:14 32:10 32:19,21 33:9 36:6,20 44:15 45:16 46:4 51:17 80:20 83:10,11 86:18 87:8 ,22 91:8 104:9 112:11 123:16 134:15 136:18 139:15 141:18 151:22 168:14 186:15 196:13 ,17 197:1 206:22 214:2,5 ,19 220:2 281:8 **guessing** 200:13 **guidelines** 245:1 **guy** 279:7 **guys** 51:9 152:10 293:5 **gyrations** 279:20 **H habit**  246:1 **HAILEY** 13:16 **Hainley** 3:4 9:6,6 13:20,20 34:1 ,1 40:21 ,21 54:5 ,6 55:17 98:17 ,17 99:13 ,13 131:8 133:6,6 140:13 ,13 142:1 ,2 209:17 ,17 210:15 ,15 257:3 ,3 290:10,10 **half** 50:6 96:5 136:20 163:2,11 174:14 175:13 **hand** 7:17 246:16 **handbook** 98:5 **handle** 14:12 **handled** 215:6 **happen** 43:22 45:14 61:17 189:3 208:18 215:3 271:4 285:14 **happened** 39:18 196:16 203:11 **happening** 51:21 130:11 202:4 262:19 271:8 272:2 **happens** 45:13 108:21 241:2 288:18 **happy** 203:19 247:19 **hard** 5:13 34:8 ,9 145:13 154:5 ,13 223:7 271:1 277:7 280:7 284:14 290:21 **Hardy** 67:16 **Harrington** 248:17 **hat** 173:6 278:5 289:11 **Hazelbaker** 3:5 8:14,14 44:12 46:22,22 **head** 258:3 **headlines** 51:12 **health** 25:4 43:1 ,5 ,7 **hear** 5:9 7:21 192:18 **heard** 111:13 245:6 246:19,21 253:11 276:17 278:22 279:5 **hearing** 48:11 108:19 **heat** 8:12 16:11 22:20 23:12,16 26:10,13 31:22 35:12,13 ,17 ,20,22 36:1 75:13 78:20 80:8 99:16,20 100:6,18 109:2 111:9 117:13 118:11 123:12 124:7 151:15 181:12,21 206:11 241:14 253:2 258:13 286:3

**heated** 75:16 **heater** 45:9 53:20 74:6 108:16,18 109:14 117:15 119:13 120:5 ,5 161:8 ,13 163:15 163:15 ,18 166:21 170:7 172:14,14 172:17 ,19 174:8 174:14,15 175:13 183:22 184:9,12 185:3 186:1 241:14,15 **heaters** 82:2,4 108:1 114:8 158:3 166:20 172:11 185:11 241:13 **heating** 2:10,12,14 2:16,18 8:20 22:7 53:18 73:14,15 ,16 73:16,21 74:3 ,8 74:11 ,12 75:13 ,15 76:12 78:2,3 ,4,6 78:16,18 79:8 ,9 79:11 ,16,17 80:17 102:14,15 103:14 103:15 ,22 104:3 104:15 105:19,21 106:8 ,11 ,13 ,16,17 106:19,19,22 107:1 ,3 ,7 ,9,11 ,13 107:15 ,20 108:3 ,3 108:4,22 109:8 ,8 109:19,19 110:12 110:19 112:4,13 112:15 113:10 114:7 ,14,19,22 115:21 116:11 ,17 116:18 ,22 117:2,5 117:20 118:6,7 ,9 118:9 119:12 122:3 ,3 ,15 ,15 135:7 ,7 ,20 139:8 152:18 153:5 241:8 **heatings** 108:10 **hedge** 71:13 **heels** 281:17 **height** 158:17 ,17 **heightened** 48:14 **help** 55:12 104:4 131:5 186:19 190:4 191:6 192:14 288:5 293:6The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 309 **helped** 248:18 **helpful** 17:16 27:6 46:10 72:12 84:14 161:5 190:3 228:21 **helps** 251:12 **Hi** 25:14 **high** 41:12 51:21 67:5 84:7 ,18 89:3 89:4 91:1 94:2,4 99:9 100:15 ,16 114:14 115:13 116:2 135:14 136:20 140:15 ,19 168:18 201:16 202:1 216:10 219:22 220:17 221:22 234:10,14 234:17 235:18 **high-end** 140:20 **higher** 33:15 34:5 65:4 89:14 108:17 111:10,15 117:19 125:15 127:7 130:13 131:15 141:16 142:5 143:11 155:13 181:22 189:18 198:21 210:1 215:18 216:13 217:11 225:15 228:10 243:12,12 245:17 273:15 291:10 **highest** 28:17 105:21 213:21 216:2 **highlight** 132:10 **highlighted** 34:15 34:18 **hint** 71:16 **hints** 72:7 **HIR** 187:17 **Historic** 41:12 **historical** 77:13 ,18 146:9 162:20 210:7 217:14,16 217:19 218:15 ,19 220:22 231:11 232:2,7 ,9,18 233:22 234:3 ,6,7 235:16,20 236:14 **history** 54:10 201:5 201:6 203:7 **hold** 13:14 **Holdings** 3:7 9:4 13:16,22 47:6 85:12 153:14 183:15 247:22 **holist** 114:16 **Holy** 55:6 **home** 52:20,20 53:6 53:10 84:19 85:17 99:3 100:13 101:5 113:6 176:22 205:22 226:21 260:1 272:19 273:5 279:1 ,2 282:8 ,8,16 286:18 293:9 **homebuilders** 226:1 **homeowner** 52:22 109:17 **homeowners** 291:9 **homes** 48:20 49:1 ,2 49:3 ,6,7 ,10,12 50:6 51:16 84:5 100:10,16 101:7 121:1 140:20 155:6,8 184:15 188:14 **hookup** 156:16 **hope** 5:19 7:15 72:2 143:20 **hopefully** 4:18 ,21 5:16 191:4,6 **hoping** 5:8 96:14 **horizontal** 158:12 158:14,20,22 159:12 163:8 ,17 **horizontally** 171:12 **horror** 279:5 **hot** 12:6,11 14:15 18:13 ,13 ,14,18 22:14,16,17 23:1 23:17 32:6 35:1 ,9 36:21 50:13 65:20 70:8 71:5 74:19 74:20 75:20,21 ,22 75:22 77:1 79:5 95:18 97:15 104:17 106:10 107:4 110:13 111:7 ,9,19 115:12 117:21 126:9 132:5 136:11 ,17 137:7 ,17 ,20 138:1 138:13 139:7 141:20 157:6 163:5 170:13 173:3 ,12,13 ,17 ,19 175:5 178:21 198:10 218:8 ,8

220:22 221:1 224:20 232:12 235:8 ,11 236:4,9 237:4 240:19 246:4 277:8 ,11 **hour** 29:12,13 32:16 52:8 77:1 107:21 120:7 143:16 **hours** 73:22 74:11 74:16 76:14 78:1 78:1 ,15 ,16 80:17 87:10,13 ,17 119:3 119:4,8,18 122:2 122:14 123:1 ,14 123:17 ,19 124:11 124:15 ,16,18 134:4,11 ,14 205:14 261:17 282:6 **house** 83:18 85:7 ,19 150:3 151:19 152:20 162:16 192:18 197:5 ,6 231:20 277:9 279:18 **household** 76:22 77:5 ,10,12 78:5 78:22 79:12,20,22 148:7 ,8 149:5 ,11 149:12 150:20 152:19 158:18 159:4,8,10 162:9 162:15 171:7 182:10,15 183:5 183:10 184:4 187:12,13 188:4 189:8 196:2 205:19 208:17 215:8 225:10 **household-by-hou ...**  81:17 **household-to-hou ...**  187:9 **households** 75:21 79:10 80:3 96:4 102:16 117:6 121:14 148:5 163:3 171:16 186:21 187:11 188:5 189:10 225:13 **houses** 49:15 83:19 85:6 121:13 ,18 186:17 225:6 **housing** 48:18 49:7 49:8 79:22 84:5 148:21 209:7 226:2 231:8 232:2 232:5 **HRI** 32:9 224:12 **huge** 83:12 91:20 99:17 111:7 142:14 188:5 202:19 264:3 272:2,6 **hugely** 246:5 **Hughes** 105:20 **hundred** 208:6 **hurt** 221:15 **hydraulic** 112:13

**I ice**  239:19 **ICF** 3:3 9:1 **idea** 71:16 84:19 274:9,13 **ideal** 47:13 **identical** 57:2 **identified** 17:11 40:11 60:2 256:7 256:10 **identify** 115:14 251:3 ,22 **idle** 91:22 112:21 286:15 287:1 **ignited** 127:19 **igniter** 128:1 **ignition** 126:10,11 127:18 128:16 129:5 ,7 ,14 205:1 **ignore** 53:5 ,14 84:12 **ignoring** 262:15 270:14 271:7 **ill** 17:14 **illuminated** 8:6 **immediate** 117:13 **Immediately** 5:20 **impact** 6:12,15 42:16 43:1 ,7 ,9,10 45:20 88:8 106:5 111:17 118:13 120:3 122:11 127:9 134:19 174:9 202:12,19 203:16 212:21 214:22 218:4 222:4 225:3 230:10,11 ,21 238:21 ,22 242:3 ,6 242:12 243:18 244:1 248:2

249:21 250:15 ,19 251:7 ,11 252:18 252:20 264:8 ,12 270:2,16 271:4 272:2,16 274:3 ,9 281:20 283:6 284:1 ,2,7 ,8 286:16 287:19 **impacted** 121:15 157:1 178:16 206:16 210:14 217:12 241:22 251:5 252:8 256:6 **impacting** 152:18 242:9 **impacts** 6:15 25:3 ,3 25:7 42:11 43:5 54:10 121:14,18 206:10 242:8 245:7 251:1 ,3 ,13 253:15 254:3 ,16 254:18 255:21 259:8 ,14 260:2 261:19 262:15 270:4 274:21 287:14 **implemented** 60:4 **implementing** 292:17 **implications** 153:9 **implying** 196:18 **important** 11:15 42:10 62:18 74:17 75:5 76:7 88:14 126:5 131:21 144:22 148:4,10 154:17 190:6 225:9 245:7 250:12 252:1 289:15 293:22 **improve** 24:6,9 274:14 **improvement** 71:17 286:22 **in-floor** 100:18 **inability** 45:1 **inadequate** 47:11 **inappropriate** 292:2 **inbox** 17:6 **incentives** 222:22 **inches** 162:4,4 166:1 ,1 168:14,14 184:11 **incidents** 46:12The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 310 **include** 21:18 29:10 38:8 65:19,21 70:3 76:4 89:7 102:1 124:4,21 156:11 ,21 157:17 173:22 191:17 198:15 199:11 208:10 230:16 234:10 **included** 21:21 28:1 31:16 38:12 66:8 150:8 175:15 192:5 ,5 204:21 269:4 272:18 276:3 **includes** 24:11 ,15 66:11 78:8 172:2 172:3 174:2,6 179:5 192:4 205:1 217:17 230:18 ,21 234:16 260:6 **including** 123:10 158:17 227:20 249:12 253:18 257:10,10,11 267:11 275:14,22 **income** 213:20,21 213:21 214:6,7 ,8 214:10 215:10 216:1 ,18 225:6,9 **incomplete** 270:18 **incorporated** 24:15 160:19 259:4 **incorrect** 36:14 100:3 **increase** 35:10,11 35:17 ,19 36:1 37:18 69:11 ,12 93:21 96:20 99:22 119:9 147:2 188:13 202:10,17 202:18 203:6,8 225:14 226:6,17 237:15 241:1 ,3 242:22 255:22 261:14 262:12,14 270:20,21 **increased** 27:15 35:20 69:17 223:4 226:7 254:11 271:9 **increases** 43:15 188:15 226:4 260:4 261:3 263:2 **increasing** 37:20 40:13 146:15 ,22 202:8 204:7 ,8

222:15 223:9 226:9 243:4 279:20 286:3 287:3 **incremental** 69:10 69:17 ,18 71:6,17 144:12 155:19 179:7 ,16 185:5 186:6 187:18 ,20 188:13 ,15 ,22 189:4 190:15 191:1 208:19 241:5 259:4 262:17 263:2 268:3 269:12 **incrementally** 264:2 **incur** 255:11 **Independence** 1:7 **independent** 130:10 **independently** 259:2 **index** 146:21 **indicate** 34:16,18 **indicated** 39:19 136:15 239:8 **indicates** 136:9,14 277:13 **indirect** 6:15 107:22 111:15 112:6 270:3 274:8 ,21 **individual** 35:7 37:17 53:17 73:19 84:22 121:7 148:5 188:4 **individuals** 81:22 **indoor** 8:16 93:3 120:8 149:20 150:2,6,17 151:1 152:11 164:5 166:12 167:19 177:16 **indoors** 149:15 166:13 **induced** 38:10,14 126:2 131:3 ,10,12 131:14,20 132:3 142:6 163:6 **induced-draft** 54:20 125:19,21 130:12 **inducer** 38:4,5 ,8 ,9 126:6 130:10,18 141:2,5 ,14,16,17 141:19,21 142:5 142:16,18 143:2 208:7 **inducers** 39:12

135:21 143:3 ,7 **inducted** 41:3 205:3 **industry** 28:11 35:7 35:8 37:20 111:11 251:9,14,15 ,17 ,19 252:19 253:14,16 253:22 254:3 ,20 255:9,11 266:15 278:2,13 280:16 281:16 282:18 287:4 290:3 **industry-wide** 55:12 **inflation** 147:4 201:9 226:10 **influenced** 231:3 **inform** 22:1 288:6 **information** 5:19 6:4 11:16 21:15 21:17 22:1 27:3 27:22 28:7 ,22 31:5 32:5 ,7 ,22 35:1 40:19 66:9 66:16 71:15 92:19 130:3 200:22 212:1 ,11 213:15 236:19 239:9 251:20 270:10 288:17 290:5 293:4,5 **informative** 289:9 **initial** 18:8 244:1 290:18 **input** 29:11 32:22 73:22 76:14,19,21 77:2,18 80:10 92:20 97:20 140:3 144:8 ,17 162:3 ,5 168:13 177:8 184:11 194:1 ,5 230:8 **inputs** 32:13 33:15 145:12,13 ,18 ,22 158:9 224:15 230:11 231:8 232:1 245:4 251:17 252:4,6 255:16 **INPV** 251:15 254:16 255:16,21 259:9 **inside** 150:17 **insignificant** 248:7 **inspection** 47:16 91:18 181:19 **inspectors** 194:2

**install** 25:2 43:20 44:8 45:14 46:3 47:10 50:3 72:3 144:11 147:9 163:4,8 174:3 176:8 ,22 179:4 195:15 224:17 282:1 **installation** 53:14 79:5 80:9 90:9 92:2 120:19 126:14 131:21 132:9 144:15 147:9,11 ,16,18 ,19 148:3 ,8,10,20,22 149:16 153:10 156:9,10,11 ,15 ,18 156:20 157:5 ,8,9 157:12,16 158:4 166:3 169:16 173:10,22 174:5 174:13 175:8 177:12,17 178:1 179:5 ,10,16 181:19 184:8 186:22 203:15 227:17 ,19 277:16 278:8 281:1 **installations** 39:10 41:5 58:4 90:12 90:14 95:17 ,20 98:20 135:14 160:11 165:20 166:8 ,10,12,13 168:10 170:4,14 170:21 172:13 173:6 175:22 176:15 177:10,15 178:16 185:12 186:12 211:5 242:11 253:3 271:5 278:9,10,12 **installed** 39:8 44:6 45:20 47:17 ,20 49:11 90:1 ,8 119:21 135:21 138:2 149:3 ,4,6 153:4 159:1 ,2,3 162:9 164:2,17 165:5 ,6 173:11 179:4 181:9 184:14 188:10 189:9,13 ,20,21 192:20 196:1 ,15 196:17 210:10,22 211:6,8,11 ,17

228:2 266:14 270:4,8 **installer** 44:4 47:19 52:21 53:13 56:4 167:12 181:13 ,15 **installers** 43:19 44:8 46:3 56:2 **installing** 44:22 48:15 51:7 ,11 96:1 ,2 99:6,7 166:22 167:8 170:1 173:11 195:11 232:14 242:15 **installs** 282:10 **instance** 26:6 62:8 89:1 198:10 **instances** 26:16 172:12 **Institute** 2:11 ,13 ,15 2:17 ,19 3:8 8:18 8:20 12:16 57:17 80:14 127:2 133:20 200:10 213:18 214:16 221:4 261:7 270:12 **instructs** 249:22 **integrated** 112:13 252:19 **intelligent** 53:8 **intention** 284:19 **interactions** 177:11 **interagency** 264:22 265:4 **intercity** 184:15 **interest** 11:14 216:2 216:10 **interested** 21:17 86:19 155:4 240:2 **interesting** 96:21 103:11 117:7 215:2 **intermediate** 29:21 **International** 3:3 9:2 **interpolation** 34:19 **interrupt** 7:13 **interviews** 28:2 66:10 251:16 252:7 ,9 **introduce** 287:12 **introduction** 287:10 **introductions** 7:6 8:3The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 311 **intuitive** 245:16 **invalid** 211:1 **investments** 254:22 255:2 **invite** 136:3 **involve** 46:12 **iron** 23:10,16,20 24:2 29:10 52:4,9 211:10 212:6 234:8 235:1 ,5 284:3 286:11 **irrelevant** 202:4 **issue** 16:14 33:19 39:14 43:15 44:4 44:16 46:19,19 47:7 48:5 50:22 53:15 83:14,14 92:14 115:10 161:8 163:21 178:6 192:8 193:22 194:12 229:2 **issued** 31:2 **issues** 42:22 48:2 53:1 58:15 252:1 253:7 ,8,12 268:14 268:17 288:3 ,7 **It'll** 168:14 293:17 **itemized** 229:3 **items** 11:14 **J J**  3:8 ,10 **jacket** 88:22 90:7 ,8 90:15 ,19 91:9,10 91:17 93:3 ,7 107:17 112:3 135:12 151:21 152:12,14 153:5 **Joanna** 3:2 9:8 11:20 129:18 141:12 142:13 195:8 **job** 281:2,5 **jobs** 252:21 283:22 284:8 **John** 2:4 3:7 4:10 4:13 7:19 9:3 ,19 10:13 ,17 13:10 15:11 20:21 21:8 30:5 47:4,6 50:11 52:16 55:3 59:5 68:19 83:22 84:17 85:2,11 135:16 153:12,13 ,17 155:18 171:20,21 183:13 ,15 186:13

197:21 247:21 ,22 248:1 250:17 259:22 288:22 292:10 **joining** 5:8 7:14 53:17 81:22 199:10 **July** 271:3 ,18 272:9 **jump** 35:12 230:1 **jumps** 115:22 **June** 15:19 16:3 ,22 271:2 272:9 293:10 **Justice** 3:12 10:3 **justification** 39:20 40:12 265:20 **justified** 247:18 291:14 **K Katie**  260:17 **KBTU** 77:1 ,3 107:21 **keep** 7:10 44:14 50:17 56:8 73:2 83:17 109:18 190:8 199:19 216:19 240:10 283:12 290:22 **key** 57:12 251:14 252:6 259:16 289:13 **kilowatt** 107:21 119:3 ,4,7 ,17 134:4 261:17 **kind** 39:12 45:3 48:9 53:4 58:2 63:16 64:1 ,10 69:1 71:12 72:5 ,7 80:20,21 81:7 84:17 87:15 92:2 93:7 107:8 110:3 117:7 ,17 118:18 119:21 120:10 128:3 ,15 ,17 129:6 134:9 150:5 ,11 ,15 150:16,17 151:14 152:10,14,18 ,19 155:4 159:3 164:7 169:15 179:17 184:6,6 192:4 212:10 215:1 ,2,3 218:15 220:7 221:7 223:3 234:1 237:6,17 238:2 241:2,17 244:5

246:1 258:5 267:13 ,14 271:1 277:21 280:2 282:5 283:7 284:12 285:13 **kinds** 275:3 **Kinetics** 3:1 8:11 42:4 91:7 100:22 105:17 111:5 112:9 113:18 206:19 285:22 **kitchens** 140:22 **know** 14:8 19:22 20:13 26:6,7 ,8 30:9 32:14 37:13 38:18 42:22 43:12 43:13 44:6,16,18 44:19 45:1 ,2,2,5 45:10 46:3 ,11 ,13 46:18 49:13 ,15 ,21 50:8 ,17 ,21 52:2 52:10,12 53:11 55:5 56:1 58:22 59:2 60:13 61:2 61:19 62:8 63:9 63:17 ,18 ,19,22 64:1 ,2,8 80:18 81:8 82:22 83:12 83:17 84:18 ,22 88:2 91:12 99:18 100:15 104:8 112:11 114:17 116:1 ,3 117:16,20 120:4,10,19 124:2 127:4,4 134:18 136:7 ,20 137:2,19 137:20 139:8 ,10 139:15 ,17 142:17 142:19,20,20 150:6,10 151:14 151:21 152:1 ,11 152:15 154:19 155:5 156:2 165:1 168:11 169:4 176:20 179:20,21 181:16,20 189:2 190:3 ,16 199:1 200:11 ,15 ,15 ,20 201:7 ,10 202:7 ,9 202:16,17 ,18 203:6 206:22 207:15 208:12 210:13 212:13 214:4,17 ,20 216:4 216:5 ,8 219:20 221:16,18 ,19,21

225:21 226:3 ,20 239:14,18 ,21 240:2,3 ,5 ,6,10,22 241:11 ,12 242:22 245:16 246:7 ,20 247:6,7 248:3 250:10 257:10 258:10,13 260:19 261:17 262:11 ,14 265:3 266:11 268:12 270:13 272:3 273:14 275:18 277:2,5 ,13 278:19,22 279:1 ,6 279:13 ,14,18 ,22 280:3 ,4,7 ,8,10,11 280:14,15 ,18 281:4,18 ,20 282:3 282:9,13 ,15 ,16,20 283:1 ,13 ,16 284:5 284:12,15 ,15 ,17 285:3 ,8 286:19 287:8 288:18 290:19,22 293:11 **knowledge** 211:4 **knows** 125:16 **Krebs** 82:1 **L l**  202:17 **L-i-s** 292:15 **lab** 64:20 91:15 260:17 270:6 **labeled** 104:18 **labelers** 256:13 **labor** 69:16 172:1 ,2 172:4 205:14,15 205:17 208:12 **Laboratory** 2:21 ,22 9:11 ,13 **Lancaster** 85:14 **landlords** 226:5 ,20 **landscape's** 271:12 **large** 12:2,4 36:2 41:5 101:7 165:7 215:15 256:15 ,18 256:21 257:4 258:18 273:14 283:17 **largely** 35:16 **larger** 12:8 23:18 32:22 34:3 168:19 180:18 236:10 242:22 **Lastly** 77:14 80:6 107:20

**late** 205:5 **latest** 68:13 **latitude** 154:7 **Lau** 2:9 9:22,22 **Laughter** 289:5 **Lawrence** 2:21 ,22 9:10,12 64:19 **lawsuit** 248:13 **lawyer** 248:13 **lay** 145:13 **lays** 257:6 **LBNL** 181:6 **LCC** 101:18 102:11 204:1 224:18 ,19 225:17 232:17 289:21 **lean** 84:21 **learned** 293:2 **LED** 57:22 **leeway** 281:8 **left** 23:6 36:10 47:17 54:3 73:1 98:20 143:21 **legacy** 252:14 253:12 **legislation** 15:22 18:1 **leisure** 247:16 **Lekov** 2:22 9:10,10 181:6,6 **length** 158:8 ,11 ,14 158:21 ,22 159:4,7 159:12 166:4 184:8 **let's** 8:5 32:22 33:20 43:14 72:16 76:11 78:14 82:19 84:18 89:1 99:18 117:13 120:19 122:15 124:5 125:7 130:8 131:16 135:3 143:15 ,16 156:10 159:22 161:21 165:14 184:17 190:9 194:3 200:4 218:14 229:9,11 229:13 246:15 **level** 19:12 27:17 32:4 34:15 ,17 35:11 38:14 39:6 39:10 40:18 41:18 41:22 45:3 ,5 48:7 48:14 50:1 ,10,16 54:15 ,17 55:7 60:13 ,14 63:18The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 312 69:19 73:11 74:2 74:7 79:8 100:16 105:11 110:15 135:22 141:3 143:4 155:20 164:9 165:2 168:13 171:14 189:3 192:20 197:15 220:3 228:3 ,14 244:13 244:13 246:4,16 265:11 273:5 277:18 291:3 ,7 ,11 **levels** 12:3 ,6,8 ,9,11 19:7 22:18 23:1 ,4 27:18 ,19 28:9,19 29:16,18 ,20,21 30:2 31:9 34:15 34:21 35:18 37:13 39:21 54:12 57:3 57:4,5 76:22 132:17 156:19 161:10 173:4 198:9 212:20 217:7 ,17 237:1 ,2 237:4 244:11 246:18 253:10 255:4 258:8 ,10,12 289:22 **liability** 280:8 **Licensing** 200:5 **lieu** 250:1 **life** 6:10 143:22 144:4,8,10 145:5 187:16 198:12 199:10 202:12,19 203:9 209:3 211:3 212:3 ,9 213:6 224:14 228:16 **lifetime** 145:8 204:19 205:4,11 209:2,3 ,4,12,14 209:19 210:2,6 211:3 ,10 212:22 213:7 224:18 228:7 230:11 231:15 233:3 291:21 292:6 **lifetimes** 207:10,22 210:4 212:19 **light** 8:6 **lights** 18:17 57:22 **likelihood** 155:14 **limit** 167:11 169:5 **limitations** 275:6 **limited** 67:9 **limits** 274:22

**line** 47:14 53:11 ,17 81:22 184:22 185:1 ,8 190:14,20 201:9 237:6 **linear** 33:21 34:19 235:13 **liner** 45:7 ,9 184:6 197:12 **lines** 220:2 263:20 **lining** 185:3 ,9,13 190:21 ,21 **Lis** 292:14 **list** 24:5 ,8,11 ,15 79:10 **listed** 5:20 19:8 27:5 75:11 104:20 106:15 126:1 133:10,12 142:8 161:14 **listen** 289:13 **listening** 276:19 281:13 **listing** 251:22 **listings** 27:1 **lists** 29:6 173:5 **literature** 28:3 29:1 32:7 62:2,11 95:12 98:12,13 122:6 128:11 148:17 **little** 5:7 8:6 11:11 26:4,10 36:9 37:9 40:7 42:21 43:2 45:6 70:4 71:12 71:13 82:6 89:14 92:12 93:19 94:11 94:14 97:4 101:8 107:12 115:7 ,13 115:19 119:12 120:14 129:2 131:22 134:15 135:1 137:6,15 139:15 142:14 144:14 145:5 147:13 151:20 154:7 168:18 169:15 171:10 175:19 178:13 191:5 201:17 214:5 215:18 216:6 226:17 230:19 234:16 244:3 263:10 284:11 287:15 288:10 **live** 279:2 280:6

**living** 166:16 168:5 **load** 78:2,3 ,4,6,16 78:18 107:7 108:3 108:3 119:9 120:3 120:6,13 **loads** 80:17 **loan** 216:3 ,4 **loans** 215:14 216:9 **located** 120:11 149:1 **location** 80:9 148:8 148:10,20,22 149:14 150:17 157:8 ,9 159:20 160:2 167:19,20 177:12 178:6 184:8 **locations** 149:20 150:2,8,15 166:3 178:1 **locked** 267:21 **logic** 51:18 **logical** 33:13 **long** 86:10 211:17 211:19 **longer** 14:22 231:20 **longstanding** 151:14 **look** 15:15 32:20 37:11 ,16 42:13 44:21 49:10 52:15 53:3 ,9 54:8 59:13 63:13 64:21 83:20 91:9,21 92:12 93:18 97:10 101:12 102:13 104:8 111:6 114:18 115:7 117:12,21 125:7 131:4 134:17 ,19 134:21 135:4 137:22 141:9 145:15 146:14,15 147:10 149:11 152:11 157:11 ,16 158:2 160:11 165:17 184:4,18 186:9,16 198:11 198:12 200:12,14 201:5 ,6 204:2,12 207:19 210:8 212:1 ,5 213:1 214:13 220:5 ,7 222:12 224:1 226:9 236:15 240:13 245:9

246:7 248:22 249:22 250:11 ,13 260:3 ,9,13 ,20 261:10 267:12 270:4,6,7 275:2 275:16 278:8 281:1 282:13 288:11 289:21 294:1 **looked** 26:22 43:15 62:3 ,4 63:10 117:5 133:8 146:10 153:8 155:5 188:4 250:5 288:13 **looking** 12:19,20 22:12 24:21 33:12 37:5 ,7 ,14 50:12 50:14 51:1 ,2 52:3 52:10 80:15 83:1 83:3 105:18 109:12 115:9 119:20 134:8 ,10 136:7 137:1 ,3 138:17 142:13 148:9 153:11 161:22 174:10 188:6,12 199:3 209:20 214:3 ,3 240:18 244:4 246:11 ,12 248:13 248:21 250:6 261:20 262:4,15 263:18 269:10 270:14,19 287:16 **looks** 11:13 50:16 51:6 53:4 97:9 104:9 134:12,14 141:18 147:1 201:2 237:17 238:5 239:22 **loops** 152:1 **lose** 282:13 **loss** 62:10 63:8 90:15 ,19 91:9,10 91:15 ,17 ,20,22 93:3 ,8 107:21 ,22 112:21 139:15 152:13 ,14 153:5 286:15 287:1 **losses** 78:11 88:22 90:7 ,8 107:10,17 112:3 113:12,13 120:5 135:12 151:21 152:20 **lost** 151:16,20

**lot** 44:21 45:2 46:6 46:18 54:19 57:14 72:17 91:19 96:13 106:12 111:10 114:5 137:20 143:7 145:12 152:3 155:5 164:6 164:21 165:4 179:20 180:3 ,10 189:10 194:3 201:1 ,22 202:6 212:8 229:22 246:20 250:11 278:12 281:14,14 284:13 ,17 286:19 291:2 293:2 **lots** 51:7 **louder** 26:7 **love** 55:10 280:4 **low** 55:20 57:20 58:4,11 62:10 63:7 ,18 82:9,10 89:3 ,10,16 90:5 90:19 91:1 ,2,3 92:9,9,13 94:3 ,17 95:21 96:2,6 99:3 100:17 101:3 112:5 135:14 140:15 ,17 ,21 201:16 202:1 203:6 206:10,21 206:22 207:2,3 216:18 221:14 225:6,9 **low-income** 225:13 **lower** 15:3 28:20 34:4 54:14 90:20 97:4 98:20 99:21 129:3 130:13 214:7 216:1 222:3 225:12,14 253:6 254:18 255:19 263:20 **lowers** 96:16 **lowest** 213:21 214:9 **LPG** 75:14 182:19 **luckily** 7:18 **lucky** 7:20 **lunch** 6:12 143:14 143:15 ,18 ,21 **M machines**  280:12 **macro** 244:13 274:13The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 313 **magazine** 232:20 234:9 **magnitude** 50:20 111:20 118:19 **Maheshwary** 3:12 10:2,2 **main** 75:12 110:22 139:17 213:10 215:13 **maintain** 205:16 254:12 **maintenance** 199:16 204:12 205:15 206:2,4,6 208:20 226:15 228:6 **Majet** 17:12 **major** 30:1 36:9,19 36:20 37:5 ,6 49:12 102:2 158:7 230:8 ,10 231:8 284:6 **majority** 22:15 23:9 23:22 29:22 39:11 84:9 85:5 100:14 140:18 189:21 **making** 44:8 164:22 205:8 210:17 282:7 **manageable** 50:22 **management** 178:3 **Manager** 4:13 **mandate** 278:4 **mandates** 90:1 **manuals** 181:19 **manufacture** 6:14 25:2 34:4,6 95:12 **manufactured** 18:14,19 **manufacturer** 27:14,18 28:2,11 30:17 ,18 35:5 36:9,19,20,21 ,22 37:6,8,8,10,12,15 37:16,16,18 38:6 47:18 55:1 57:6 65:13 ,15 66:6,10 66:13 67:1 ,5 70:16 122:6 128:11 148:17 181:11 ,14,17 194:16 230:10 236:3 250:14,19 251:8 ,21 252:7 ,9 253:18 ,22 255:7 256:16,18 ,21 259:5 266:15

**manufacturer's** 39:7 **manufacturer-spe ...**  55:8 **manufacturers** 2:20 8:13 16:11 20:6 31:11 36:13 37:6 50:8 54:21 ,22 56:22 62:1 64:5 65:7 82:9 97:5 128:6,7 ,9 140:11 179:22 210:6 224:12,12 234:16 234:18 236:18 251:2,4,16 252:10 252:13 ,22 253:4 253:15 254:5 ,10 255:8 256:13 257:5 ,15 258:6 259:13 ,15 267:2 280:4 287:9 289:12 290:6 293:3 **manufacturers'** 65:3 69:6,9,11 ,15 98:2 212:2 236:6 252:20 **manufactures** 21:22 **manufacturing** 33:20 146:4,6 252:20 283:6 287:7 ,8,18 289:14 **March** 127:6 **margin** 45:4 65:11 254:15 **marginal** 182:14,15 182:18 ,19 183:2,8 198:20,22 199:3 229:2,7 260:9 **margins** 254:4 **mark** 65:10 81:22 208:10 **market** 12:18 20:16 21:10,13 23:19 28:8 29:19 33:17 33:18 42:11 ,12,15 50:9,13 51:5 ,20 59:10,17 ,19 63:8 67:9 70:15 92:11 92:18 95:19 101:7 111:7 114:7 217:6 218:6,13 219:18 220:6,8,9 221:15 221:22 222:14,16 223:4,9,11 ,15 230:15 231:10,17

245:10,13 ,17 252:13 ,14 255:7 257:16 268:20 269:3 283:17 285:16,18 289:19 290:1 **market's** 193:12 **marketing** 6:5 255:3 280:3 **marketplace** 12:20 25:17 57:10 127:8 262:16 292:4 **markets** 47:15 66:7 286:11 **markup** 64:21 66:17 ,18 ,19 67:16 67:17 70:17 ,20 71:6,7 ,18 ,22,22 146:5 254:2,4,8 255:20 **markups** 6:7 65:2,5 67:13 68:2,10,21 69:6,8,10,14,17 70:14 71:1 ,4,8 72:13 ,14 144:13 146:6 208:10 253:22 **Marran** 3:1 8:10,10 42:3 ,3 91:6,6 100:21 ,21 105:16 105:16 111:4,4 112:8 ,8 113:17 ,17 114:2 160:9,9 206:18 ,18 285:21 285:21 **masonry** 162:7 163:22 **mass** 82:10,11 90:19 91:1 ,1 ,3 ,4 92:9,9,13 112:6 286:13 ,14 287:6 **mass/high** 92:13 112:6 **match** 68:4 133:13 134:22 137:14 **matched** 77:10,11 77:17 **matches** 142:9 **material** 30:14,15 174:7 185:14 199:12 205:13 208:6,9 227:20 **materials** 22:20 165:18 171:22 172:1 ,3 205:15 **math** 133:22 190:5

**matter** 62:16 63:22 164:9 181:20 192:18 ,20 193:2 203:3 ,4 214:18 258:19 281:7 **Mauer** 3:2 9:8 ,8 11:21 129:19 141:13 143:8 ,12 195:8 ,8 **max** 23:19 29:18 42:6,8,11 48:9 218:14 237:7 ,13 237:16 240:21 243:11 ,15 ,16 286:5 **maximum** 29:18 159:9 **McDonald** 53:18 167:7 222:21 **mean** 25:19 26:15 30:9 32:14 39:5 46:2,15 52:11 83:17 109:1 115:8 117:12 122:21 143:8 152:10 176:21 184:16 190:2 193:10,10 194:12 203:17 242:7 261:13 267:2 273:1 275:12 278:11 288:3 ,22 **means** 18:15 41:8 72:19 88:21 89:21 90:2 94:5 ,6 96:16 96:22 101:3 109:2 135:12 143:16 148:13 204:17 205:2,17 239:14 249:22 250:2 287:10 **meant** 28:5 **measure** 43:8 60:12 152:12 275:12 **measured** 14:9 24:7 **measurements** 56:21 219:20 275:6 **measuring** 242:18 **mechanical** 39:13 41:7 65:16 66:14 67:17 70:17 148:14 205:2,3 **mechanisms** 219:9 **Medepalli** 3:3 9:1 ,1 **median** 22:7 58:20 61:7 80:20,21 81:5 ,10,14,18 102:21 ,22 104:20 224:19 **meet** 20:6 164:13 197:5 ,7 253:2 **meeting** 1:1 ,2 2:1 4:4,16 6:21 7:14 7:16 10:19 11:4 13:13 76:18 256:10 285:2 288:3 292:13 293:2 294:3 **meetings** 4:21 10:21 **meets** 29:5 **melting** 73:18 **members** 33:10 276:7 **memory** 229:6 **MEMS** 270:6 **mention** 94:18 **mentioned** 57:7 86:1 ,2 98:21 113:19 129:12 136:7 203:14 243:14 248:15 253:13 256:4 260:3 286:5 287:8 **mentioning** 113:11 113:14 129:19 **mercury** 260:10 261:3 ,9,12 262:4 262:5 **merge** 37:19 **metal** 157:18 ,18 165:17 174:2,21 175:1 191:15 **meters** 61:13 **methane** 260:14 **method** 67:12 87:12 145:9 **methodology** 34:22 76:20 145:20 158:9 175:20 182:21 209:10,11 210:7 213:8 214:12 217:13 243:21 **metro** 41:14 **mex** 48:9 **MIA** 146:16 203:13 204:1 244:14 251:1 ,10,18 253:13 255:16 259:17The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 314 **Michael** 53:17 **microphone** 30:6 **microphones** 7:5 12:13 **Mid-Atlantic** 207:5 **mid-case** 267:14 **mid-morning** 6:9 **mid-range** 58:2 **middle** 83:19 159:3 160:13 279:17 ,18 **might've** 102:3 **mike** 105:5 167:7 222:20 **mildly** 53:8 **milestones** 20:2 **million** 104:11 ,18 105:1 ,3 110:14,21 136:12,16,20 137:12 138:14,16 255:11 ,13 **mind** 17:2 240:10 264:6 **minimal** 64:1 **minimize** 101:11 **minimum** 14:21 29:5 50:10 101:4 141:4 186:7 190:22 217:10 250:2 283:10 291:6 293:12 **minority** 181:18 **minus** 122:14 **minute** 82:18 192:15 198:8 **minutes** 72:18 229:12,12,14,18 **mishear** 87:3 **Mislak** 2:12 10:5 ,5 **missed** 38:1 179:15 192:16 **missing** 53:10 56:5 **mistake** 188:9 **misunderstood** 121:10 **mix** 270:8 **mixture** 222:9 **MM** 132:21 **MMBTUs** 198:19 **MMP** 69:18 **modality** 42:7 **mode** 7:13 22:9,10 24:10 27:20 29:8 30:3 34:14 56:13 56:14,16,17 ,21 57:8 ,14 60:3 ,6 62:9 64:12,13 74:14,15 118:5 ,5

122:12,13 ,20 123:9,10,16,17 ,18 123:21 124:2,3 ,4 124:17 126:16 132:14 218:12 219:1 220:13 228:13 247:5 ,14 259:1 261:5 265:12 **model** 32:1 38:10 50:15 52:5 54:16 63:11 83:3 84:2 90:9 126:14 130:12 145:11 147:17 148:11 219:9 231:7 ,12 232:8 ,10 234:2 251:11 ,12,14 253:14,16,21 **modeled** 254:2,8 **models** 12:2 24:1 29:19 38:13 50:16 51:3 ,4,17 52:11 54:8 ,9,10,13 74:22 82:1 95:12 126:4 128:12 132:2 133:8 ,10,12 133:14 141:17 ,19 142:8 ,9,15 143:2 143:6 163:2,6 219:5 ,17 222:9 236:3 ,5 254:20 **moderates** 285:3 **modification** 157:18 **modifications** 171:1 **modulating** 74:21 74:22 87:20 88:7 90:4 95:1 126:6 **moment** 7:6 97:10 269:11 **monetary** 265:2 **monetization** 264:7 264:19 265:9,16 266:2 269:19,22 **monetized** 267:12 267:13 ,17 268:7 **money** 274:10,11 ,15 **monoxide** 47:7 **Monte** 145:12 **month** 76:18 114:21 115:1 ,13 182:22 293:12 **monthly** 182:14,19 183:1 ,7 274:11 **months** 194:11 195:4

**morning** 4:2,3 ,9 10:11 ,15 64:19 **motor** 125:14,15 127:5 128:17 129:20,21 143:3 208:8 **motors** 25:9 127:3 ,7 129:21 **mounting** 91:17 **move** 13:19 19:11 27:9 54:5 101:6 160:4,14 179:15 184:21 209:1 213:4 243:8 ,9 286:12 290:9 **movement** 127:4 **moves** 65:7 **moving** 6:3 25:11 45:5 106:7 118:3 122:1 161:2 173:15 175:17 179:9 199:19 208:14 216:22 222:7 225:2 243:22 284:17 286:4 288:11 289:21 **MPV** 230:9 **MPVs** 247:14 **MTA** 253:18 **multi-families** 49:15 **multi-family** 83:4,6 83:18 84:7 ,9 226:2 **multi-staged** 97:9 **multi-unit** 83:13 **multiple** 31:10 37:9 64:8 78:5 80:2 209:6 236:1 **multiplication** 76:13 **multiply** 80:3 123:4 177:16 183:1 245:11 265:6 **multiplying** 73:22 74:12 173:9 **municipalities** 47:17 **Murphy** 3:6 8:21 ,21 20:20,20 21:6 30:21 ,21 31:7 39:16,16 40:7 ,14 116:15 ,15 132:20 132:20 133:4 155:18 159:14,14 172:10 198:3 ,6,6

198:17 199:7 ,20 229:1 272:14 273:3 ,17 ,17 289:7 289:7 **mute** 7:17 **N N**  4:1 **NAECA** 18:2,7 257:8 **NAECA's** 257:7 **name** 4:8 ,12 7:7 8:6 16:9 20:19 30:6 64:19 67:6 250:17 **narrower** 23:15 **nation** 224:7 **national** 2:21 ,22 6:12 9:11 ,13 12:1 12:7 51:12 52:7 64:20 66:6 134:19 164:3 209:6 225:5 230:9 244:8 ,13 248:2 260:19 262:15 263:1 264:8 ,9 266:11 ,12 266:22 267:3 269:16 **nationally** 262:19 **natural** 38:10 42:8 48:21 ,21 75:14 126:2 130:6 143:14 162:17 182:17 190:11 198:20 221:17 229:8 273:7 286:6 **naturally** 190:11 **nature** 243:1 **Navigant** 2:6,7 ,8,9 9:14,16,22 10:1 20:17 21:9 37:3 250:18 **NDAs** 55:9 154:2,19 247:2 **near** 120:2 **nearly** 41:2 290:16 **necessarily** 224:6 249:4 **necessary** 53:20 199:11 212:14 **necessitated** 255:1 **necessitating** 252:11 ,17 **need** 6:20 7:8 11:16 14:12 21:3 26:13 35:13 ,16,20,21 36:1 38:13 39:7

41:3 ,7 45:8 56:2 92:3 101:5 117:17 128:2 136:18 151:20 164:21 165:1 167:21 170:17 ,17 ,18 184:22 185:8 186:18 ,19,20 188:1 192:21 237:20 240:10 244:5 283:14 284:4 288:4 293:21 **needed** 21:15 272:17 **needs** 26:12 43:8 98:13 104:6,12 159:21 184:16 194:14 226:19 239:15 **negates** 277:14 **negative** 119:1 283:11 284:1 **negatively** 281:20 **negotiate** 67:4 **neighbor** 127:22 **net** 244:20,22 251:15 266:16 267:9,11 ,16,19 268:9 290:1 ,2 **neutral** 12:19 **neutralized** 199:14 **neutralizer** 176:2 199:12 **neutralizers** 206:7 **never** 40:14 139:13 159:17 226:7 262:17 ,21 267:18 **new** 7:19 9:5 14:1 30:7 41:14 65:17 65:19,20 66:7 69:22 70:2,3 ,6,7 ,8 70:9,10,18 71:2 80:11 87:5 ,6 88:1 88:16 93:13 95:19 95:19 96:1 ,1 98:22 99:2 100:2 100:4 101:2,17 ,17 102:1 ,8 103:8 ,19 138:12 157:10,19 158:2 163:4,8 170:1 ,19 171:11 173:15 ,16,16,18 173:19,20 174:1 ,4 174:19,19 176:12The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 315 176:13 ,15 ,22 178:18 ,19 180:1 188:1 ,2 189:10,12 193:21 196:20 197:5 ,7 207:2,4 208:7 218:1 227:3 230:15 ,15 ,16 231:7 ,8,9,10,18 232:3 ,5 ,6,8,10,11 232:13 ,14 268:19 272:20 273:4 276:18 ,18 277:6,6 277:10,16 284:21 284:22 285:4 287:11 ,12 290:15 290:19 291:5 **newer** 15:5 146:19 **newly** 199:22 **NIA** 243:9 245:5 ,12 260:3 **nice** 4:9 143:20 224:8 246:22 **Nicholas** 2:12 10:5 **nine** 210:12 246:12 256:12 **NIRA** 194:10 **nitrogen** 260:10 **NODA** 40:9,10,18 79:16 106:2 126:19 194:7 195:4 **noise** 264:5 ,5 **nominal** 146:20 **nominally** 50:2 **non-AHRI** 234:18 236:1 ,3 ,5 ,11 ,18 **non-capitalized** 255:4 **non-condensing** 23:7 ,9,21 35:11 35:18 38:3 50:2 74:19 75:1 89:6 91:3 94:2,7 97:1 ,8 97:15 99:8 ,8 100:8 125:13 126:2,2 130:12 147:22 157:17 158:12 160:1 161:10 162:1 ,2,22 163:1 165:15 ,16 167:10 169:21 ,21 170:13 ,22,22 173:1 174:1 180:3 180:7 ,13 191:10 191:11 ,12,13 210:19 212:5 ,6 222:10 223:8

227:15 258:10 **non-condition** 90:8 90:11 ,13 91:11 107:17 **non-conditioned** 178:8 **non-heating** 118:12 126:18 136:3 **NOPR** 17:11 20:11 76:17 193:20 194:7 ,9 195:3 ,5 248:2,16 265:22 274:22 277:3 ,13 285:1 **normal** 67:7 **normally** 86:11 220:2 **note** 12:4 22:8 24:11 ,14 36:11 40:8 70:3 74:17 76:7 88:14 115:18 126:5 148:4 225:10 **noted** 15:18 34:20 42:6 **notes** 193:21 **nothing's** 53:7 **notice** 4:4 23:8 31:1 31:5 39:18 40:2 82:4 235:22 293:15 ,19 **noting** 228:20 **November** 18:10 **NOX** 260:14 268:5 **number** 5:19 12:2 28:21 37:8 48:20 54:4 58:22 76:8 77:9 79:21 ,22 80:4 85:13 93:4 111:9,13 ,21 116:1 120:11 121:4,5 130:7 131:14 136:9,14 137:10 137:12 138:10 140:17 153:15 154:12 158:18 168:12 176:20 198:18 234:17 235:21 240:9 247:8 ,9 258:2 259:13 261:12 263:11 266:12 282:17 283:5 288:15 **numbers** 54:16 55:2 55:12 70:20 81:3 92:11 95:2 112:15 114:13 ,15 116:19 134:22 136:20 137:2,2,6,14,16 138:2,6 154:15 ,18 157:5 199:2 243:21 244:12 245:11 ,20 247:13 250:11 ,13 265:3 ,7 266:1 268:10 276:15 278:16 280:7 282:6,14 **numbing** 276:16 **O O**  4:1 **observed** 62:5 **obtained** 28:22 32:6 34:19 35:1 **obvious** 53:14 **obviously** 10:22 46:18 55:7 74:21 118:22 121:8 125:10 136:19 139:22 154:16 163:13 170:14 177:4,18 207:20 208:16 209:21 241:6 271:12 272:4,6 276:11 288:4 293:4 **occasions** 153:15 **occupied** 150:8 **occur** 260:7 **occurrence** 285:15 **odds** 43:15 279:20 **offer** 139:1 167:9 188:17 **offering** 33:15 279:12 291:19 **offhand** 38:18 **Office** 9:18 **official** 271:21 **officials** 194:2 195:2 **oftentimes** 160:12 **oh** 47:22 187:19 **oil** 8:12 16:11 29:13 49:21 74:20 75:14 75:18 92:11 ,13 ,18 97:15 106:20 107:19 109:4 110:2 111:7 114:4 114:5 130:19 131:11 149:21 156:15 182:19 200:19,20 206:9

206:10 218:8 221:1 ,1 ,16 222:17 235:20 236:9 246:1 ,4 270:15 284:5 289:4 **oil-fired** 18:13 22:15 23:17 ,21 35:22 70:7 75:22 90:14 130:4,4,7 ,8 130:15 173:3 ,13 173:17 174:20 175:5 206:15 218:3 246:6 **Oilheat** 2:20 **OIR** 86:13 **okay** 10:9,13 ,18 13:8 ,18 15:10,11 17:1 ,4,13 ,17 ,21 27:11 30:19 34:11 36:6,12 37:22 38:1 ,20 42:18 48:4,6,19,22 49:1 49:4,9 50:5 54:2 56:7 ,8 58:13 60:9 60:18 ,21 64:15 69:3 82:15 ,19 83:8 86:6,18 87:22 88:10,12 93:12,16 96:13 97:17 101:14 105:1 ,9 109:9 114:2,16,17 ,20,21 115:2,5 116:5 117:18 120:18 121:10,11 ,21 123:15 125:1 ,3 ,5 127:17 128:7 129:4,4,10,13 ,16 130:4 131:16 133:4 137:18 138:18 142:11 143:12 151:5 154:21 161:16 164:14,16 165:10 169:8 172:6 178:12 182:3 186:16 187:4 188:8 ,11 190:19 191:3 196:6,11 ,15 197:19 199:18 ,19 200:2 201:2 203:7 203:20 204:10 220:1 ,8 223:12 229:12 233:19 238:11 ,13 239:2,8 239:12,19,20

241:20 243:22 244:2 246:9,15 249:15 ,20 250:10 257:19 258:5 259:21 ,22 262:2 263:22 264:16 266:9 269:13 272:11 274:5 ,7 276:4 285:11 ,20 292:10 **old** 53:10 85:6 156:13 277:9 **older** 49:10,12 51:16 52:20 197:6 **OMB** 245:1 **omitted** 91:19 **once** 19:20 20:11 33:16 34:5 223:5 223:8 ,21 245:8 290:21 **one's** 263:20 280:10 280:13 **one-by-one** 19:14 **one-time** 254:22 255:2 **ones** 33:2 58:7 121:15 128:20 164:5 ,20 229:4 264:2 **online** 66:22 67:1 167:7 199:10 213:14 222:21 **oops** 53:3 **open** 292:19 **opening** 6:1 11:17 13:5 ,17 **openness** 293:3 **operating** 48:16,17 73:21 74:11 ,16 76:13 78:1 ,1 ,15 78:16 80:17 87:10 87:13 ,16 122:2,14 123:1 ,13 ,17 ,19 124:11 ,15 134:11 134:14 140:1 144:17 198:13 ,14 213:7 224:18 226:15 231:4 241:5 254:9,11 ,13 254:17 266:13 268:1 269:11 **opportunity** 5:22 6:17 12:5 92:1 113:6 **opposed** 27:5 84:22The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 316 98:12 220:9 **option** 24:21 27:21 56:19 74:17 99:7 185:14 281:6 **options** 24:6,8,12 25:6 57:1 60:2 62:3 64:4,8 209:15 250:7 259:6 **oral** 14:4 **order** 16:20 18:4 31:11 43:9 60:4 81:6 98:12 101:5 146:2 208:17 234:5 249:22 272:20 **organizational** 7:9 8:7 **original** 160:12 **orphan** 158:2 161:8 161:13 163:15 ,18 166:20 170:7 172:11 175:13 183:22 184:9 185:10 **ought** 7:20 **outdoor** 164:4 **outdoors** 177:3 ,4 **outlet** 176:4,6,9 **output** 26:11 ,13 77:3 78:3 ,8,17 80:6,7 87:1 93:11 99:21 120:4 251:14 **outset** 6:1 ,2 11:20 13:5 **outside** 77:11 279:19 **outsources** 258:7 **overall** 13:2 70:14 70:20 101:11 103:8 157:4 170:21 175:19 216:21 225:15 226:11 236:14 259:8 261:15 ,16 264:3 267:16 287:17 **overestimates** 140:17 **overestimating** 115:15 136:21 **overhead** 69:16 **overseas** 258:1 ,14 258:18 **oversize** 77:15 **oversized** 77:14

**overstate** 202:11 ,13 **overstated** 135:1 **overview** 28:6 34:14 145:5 ,18 147:16 231:7 233:22 **overwhelming** 263:2 **owner** 98:22 99:2 157:10 205:19 **owners** 65:19 70:4,6 70:7 95:20 96:1 ,9 100:4 101:17 ,17 173:16,19,20 174:19 178:19 188:2 226:20 230:15 ,16 231:10 231:18 232:6,8,11 232:13 277:7 **oxidize** 260:10 **P P**  4:1 **P-Tax** 248:10,12 **p.m** 143:19 229:16 294:4 **pace** 229:20 **packet** 5:18 6:4 **page** 183:18 188:21 248:1 249:1 **pages** 118:17 **painting** 281:9 **pairs** 36:10 **panel** 89:8 ,16 **panels** 89:15 91:18 **paper** 63:10,13 64:6 209:11 260:18 **papers** 62:2,12 **parameter** 78:21 **parameters** 144:20 **parent** 9:4 257:10 **parentheses** 102:22 **parsed** 84:5 **part** 30:13 36:2 46:17 86:17 99:1 100:5 107:9 117:11 144:13 150:3 178:15 181:8 183:17 198:14 256:9 265:19 267:2 268:21 271:14 272:21 273:20 276:21 277:1 288:16,22 **participants** 70:15 **participate** 7:15

**participated** 278:1 **particular** 18:1 42:17 120:18 185:13 272:15 **particularly** 154:1 178:4 **parts** 31:18 34:7 ,9 217:10 226:8 268:18 284:17 288:19 **pass** 20:17 64:16 168:15 226:7 250:15 254:5 **passed** 96:17 283:7 **passes** 65:13 **Paul** 3:9 8:8 42:19 42:20 44:13 51:22 52:1 87:9 92:21 92:22 97:21 ,22 115:16,17 122:17 122:18 151:6,7 160:8 161:6,7 163:19,20 169:1 ,1 179:13 ,14 181:4 184:19 188:17 ,19 192:13 196:12 207:8 ,9 258:16 273:11 ,22 281:22 283:3 287:8 **Paul's** 47:21 **pause** 143:15 **pay** 6:11 186:20 225:10 244:4 278:20 **payback** 143:22 144:4,9,10 224:15 224:19 228:16 **payday** 216:3 ,9 **paying** 216:1 **PB** 53:18 **PE** 125:22 **peak** 104:8 ,9,19 **peek** 138:20 228:19 243:7 **pending** 16:5 **penetration** 111:8 **penetrations** 166:5 **Pennsylvania** 85:14 **people** 17:11 19:3 44:17 ,22 51:7 72:2 83:20 85:18 95:22 101:19 102:1 ,6 114:18 130:19 140:3 146:19 173:20 239:21 242:14

269:4 279:6 280:6 282:3 ,7 ,12 283:21 289:14 291:11 **people's** 27:5 **percent** 14:11 ,15 ,17 15:1 41:1 ,2,6,19 44:18 47:10 49:1 49:2,3 ,6,7 ,20 50:1 51:16 52:2,13 54:15 55:19,21 66:3 70:1 ,2,6,7 ,8 70:9,10 77:1 ,2 81:6 90:11 ,13 ,19 90:21 ,22 91:2,3 93:4,4,9,9 94:8 ,9 94:10,12,13 ,14,21 95:8 ,20 96:8 ,8 102:5 103:3 ,13 ,16 103:17 ,20,21 105:11 106:4,18 106:21 108:9 110:1 ,20 111:16 112:5 ,16,17 113:11 ,15 ,20 115:4 116:1 119:10,15 126:7 126:17 132:5 ,6,7 135:9 136:1 ,21 140:5 141:4,6,16 141:17 ,21 ,22 142:20 143:4 147:1 ,2 149:18 ,19 149:20 150:10 153:4,8,9 163:5 ,6 163:7 ,10,11 ,12 167:10 168:10,17 170:16,16,17 ,18 170:20 171:1 ,15 171:17 172:12 175:5 ,13 176:7 ,14 176:16,18 177:5 177:14,15 ,16,18 178:17 184:21 186:12,17 187:10 189:1 ,16,18 190:12,13 191:9 191:13 ,14,18 ,20 192:1 ,5 ,9,9,9 193:7 195:17 197:16 202:17 ,18 205:10 206:15 211:7 218:2,3 ,5 ,7 218:7 ,8,12,13 219:2,13 ,16 221:17 ,18 224:1 232:16 233:7

235:10,16 236:4,8 236:10 237:8 240:22 241:2,16 241:18 248:5 255:22 256:1 263:14,16 267:16 267:16,18 ,19,21 268:1 ,8,9 269:12 271:22 277:5 278:1 ,11 280:11 280:17 ,17 ,22 281:7 289:19 290:20 291:7 **percentage** 28:17 38:13 ,18 44:1 83:13 92:9 100:16 100:18 101:7 111:14 121:2 140:22 141:5 142:5 ,9,15 143:5 155:13 188:14 224:5 ,6 243:12,16 248:22 256:17 ,22 289:18 290:1 **percentages** 245:18 249:5 **percentile** 80:20 **percentiles** 80:19 **perfect** 43:14 211:22 **perform** 253:1 **performance** 112:13 113:6 218:2 287:1 **performed** 28:16 40:6 **period** 6:11 16:15 72:4 105:22,22 143:22 144:9,10 154:3 ,11 194:11 224:19 228:16 230:8 237:22 256:19 262:10 267:5 290:17 293:10 **permanent** 156:16 **person** 10:22 44:7 53:8 **personally** 16:7 17:2 21:4 183:20 **perspective** 97:5 145:8 226:1 276:19 287:7 ,16 290:7 **perspectives** 226:3The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 317 **pertinent** 253:12 **perturbed** 203:14 **PGW** 3:10 **Phase** 251:19 252:3 252:5 **phases** 251:18 **Philadelphia** 9:20 41:14 **philosophy** 226:18 **phones** 7:12 **physical** 31:16,19 31:20 239:17 **pick** 72:22 143:21 229:13 ,20 245:16 271:14 **picked** 266:20 **picking** 5:13 229:10 **piece** 156:17 162:22 184:17 **pieces** 15:22 18:1 56:5 278:6 **pilot** 18:17 **pipe** 158:4 167:19 168:14 **piping** 156:15 ,15 158:13 160:16 166:15 ,17 180:1 **place** 14:19 32:11 82:3 91:18 133:2 153:5 159:17 189:22 207:1 245:9 268:12,13 **placed** 150:3 194:14 **places** 284:16 **placing** 156:14 **plan** 68:14 156:5 **plant** 260:9 270:21 271:4,13 **plants** 270:22 271:5 271:10 272:3 **play** 116:18 153:11 278:14 287:19 **plays** 91:12,21 287:5 **pleas** 209:16 **please** 4:22 5:4 7:3 7:12 11:1 ,9 16:9 20:18 30:6,20 40:20 42:19 47:5 51:12 54:4 61:3 98:16 100:20 104:12 114:11 140:12 141:10 153:12 179:13 181:4 188:19 199:6 206:17 228:19 293:14

**plenty** 46:12 **plotted** 105:14 **plug** 121:4 176:6 **plugged** 121:5 **plumbing** 179:18 **plus** 124:5 153:7 208:11 **pocket** 292:12 **pockets** 274:10 **point** 11:13 20:3 ,15 27:1 32:19 34:10 35:20 39:18 42:5 45:6 47:21 48:12 65:9 66:16 68:17 91:8 ,17 97:14 99:7 101:13 117:1 141:8 ,12 143:15 145:11 148:12 154:15 ,20 155:19 156:3 ,5 175:12 186:5 189:14 193:20 194:17 195:22 199:2 203:21 212:17 218:11 227:2 249:18 250:14 264:18 267:8 276:6 290:13 293:12,13 **pointed** 43:18 241:7 **pointing** 97:13 269:17 **points** 14:12 37:10 53:12 55:13 **polar** 200:16 **polypropylene** 165:19 168:11 **population** 100:19 **portion** 127:16 141:15 ,17 144:12 144:16 164:18 **position** 48:6 **positive** 94:20 119:1 269:19 **possession** 215:9 **possible** 7:11 10:21 44:20 66:10 194:6 237:15 286:21 **possibly** 46:16 262:11 **post-1950** 85:9 **post-purge** 97:2 **posted** 20:22 **potential** 25:7 53:1 53:14 78:12 79:17 89:16 150:20

195:22 251:13 254:3 256:7 259:14 260:20 **potentially** 89:14 99:9 101:19 124:19 158:3 180:11 195:19 **power** 60:9 61:19 62:9 74:13 ,16 118:8 122:4,13 123:4 126:6,11 ,15 127:19 260:9 261:11 270:20,22 271:4,5 ,9,13 272:2 **powers** 124:18 **PP** 165:19 **PPI** 146:10,10 **practicable** 25:1 **practical** 41:15 **practice** 43:14 **practices** 31:13 **preceding** 38:7 60:10 **preempting** 292:17 **preliminary** 5:21 10:12,16 40:11 **preparation** 194:7 **prepare** 246:3 **present** 11:5 56:17 126:13 213:6 244:20,22 251:15 266:16 267:1 276:7 **presentation** 13:13 13:17 15:16 **presentations** 5:5 290:12 **presented** 140:16 268:15 289:3 **presents** 70:15 102:19 282:11 **preservation** 254:4 254:9,15 ,17 **press** 13:8 131:17 197:21 **pressing** 56:8 **pressure** 181:22 242:15 272:16,19 273:2,5 ,14 **presumably** 26:15 **presume** 189:13 **presumed** 285:15 **pretty** 77:17 84:12 103:10 112:1 171:7 184:13

202:2 210:11 212:11 245:16 286:10 **prevalent** 76:3 **prevent** 43:9 **previous** 34:20 126:19 133:7 151:13 163:11 229:4 **previously** 146:7 151:22 163:3 173:21 177:17 232:15 253:13 256:4 259:3 **price** 27:15 65:3 ,10 69:7 ,7 ,9,11 ,15 146:3 ,4,9,12,21 147:2,2 182:12 183:1 ,2,5 ,8,8,11 200:5 203:6 221:6 221:16 229:7 231:2,4 233:11 ,13 233:16 237:10 238:2,17 ,21 ,22 239:7 ,20 240:20 240:22 241:3 ,14 241:18 ,22 242:6,9 242:18 ,19,20,22 243:4 268:22 **prices** 65:3 ,6 68:3 69:13 144:13 ,14 146:20 179:5 ,11 179:12 182:8 ,8,9 182:15 ,16,17 ,18 182:20,22 183:7 198:22 200:4,16 200:18 ,20 201:1 ,6 201:8 ,13 202:2,5 202:8 203:8 ,10,11 203:18 204:5 221:10,14,22 222:3 227:12,14 229:2 268:21 269:3 **pricing** 67:4 198:4,7 199:4,21 ,22 204:1 **primarily** 23:20 35:10 183:6 204:17 205:17 215:11 234:8 286:2 **primary** 65:12 103:6,9 125:9,12 129:1 250:22 251:10 270:8 ,16 **primary/secondary**

179:22 **prior** 31:1 48:22 101:20 102:17 171:4 173:4 211:8 **prioritize** 154:14 **priority** 154:7 **private** 256:13 **probability** 43:12 **probably** 6:13 33:16 39:11 49:12 62:6 63:21 86:13 114:17 115:4 116:2 117:14 138:5 142:20 143:2 168:18 177:13 181:18 186:14 190:2 203:15 225:16 258:13 276:13 293:16 **problem** 46:9 47:18 50:18 51:10 167:9 271:17 280:21 **problems** 46:13 53:3 ,14 **procedure** 14:5 ,10 16:18 24:7 76:16 77:15 80:9 87:1 ,2 87:5 ,7 ,11 ,15 88:2 89:19 90:17 ,18 93:7 ,8 122:5 285:10 288:9,14 290:15 ,19 **procedures** 288:19 **proceed** 6:10 8:2 15:8 ,10 17:19 20:12 **proceeding** 6:7 ,14 199:1 **proceedings** 202:15 **process** 13:1 30:22 31:18 113:22 153:22 264:22 265:4 **processes** 30:14 **produce** 60:3 **produced** 42:12 83:7 **produces** 68:16 **producing** 26:1 276:12 **product** 15:1 ,2,5 18:12 19:1 22:6 22:13 ,17 ,18 24:12 24:13 25:3 ,7 26:1The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 318 28:1 ,2,2,3 ,17 ,20 29:1 ,1 ,7 32:3 ,5 ,6 32:7 34:21 35:1 41:3 ,4,20 44:9 49:17 ,20 54:19,20 55:21 56:15 57:2 57:3 ,6,9,9,12 65:5 65:7 66:6 67:1 ,6 71:1 ,4,18 95:14 102:10 110:17 115:3 130:4,15 131:12,15 136:10 142:7 146:3 ,4,9 146:10 170:15 204:18 205:16 209:14,19 210:18 210:19,21 211:6,7 211:11 ,16 222:14 224:21 230:19 231:19 232:12 245:19 251:21 255:1 ,6,7 279:12 282:1 286:8 287:12 289:14 291:3 ,19 292:16 **production** 27:19 28:12 30:17 ,18 35:5 38:6 253:18 255:13 259:5 270:16 **productive** 293:2 **products** 14:11 29:11 ,22 31:10 39:8 ,11 42:12,17 46:14 48:15 54:12 54:15 65:4 69:12 84:22 97:9 110:20 126:11 127:19 130:4 131:10 132:8 ,15 217:7 ,11 221:21 225:8 239:16 241:8 252:16 257:1 ,18 286:7 ,7 287:11 ,13 292:8 **professionally** 183:20 **profile** 251:19 **profit** 65:11 67:16 254:9,11 ,13 **profitability** 252:20 **profits** 67:14 254:17 **profound** 287:19 **Program** 4:13 **programs** 47:16 **project** 3:2 9:9 20:3 207:12

**projected** 217:6 218:19 236:14 246:3 **projecting** 201:4 **projection** 201:7 202:10,13 ,19 **projections** 200:6,7 200:12,14 204:2 206:13 218:16 220:21 221:2,5 223:21 227:14 228:10 230:14 272:8 **prompted** 40:3 **promulgation** 14:5 **propane** 127:22 200:16 **proper** 16:21 152:6 **properly** 16:14,17 39:8 45:1 ,19 48:16 71:15 87:19 238:7 **property** 226:16 254:22 **proposal** 4:16 11:5 247:17 **propose** 116:8 244:11 **proposed** 4:4 11:22 12:3 ,9 14:8 19:12 76:16 82:4 86:22 87:11 88:2 90:17 142:4 246:18 255:5 259:1 ,9 260:5 264:12 265:10 271:22 288:14 **proposing** 39:6 253:10 **prove** 186:5 **provide** 27:3 28:6 41:17 46:17 51:13 55:1 ,9,16 99:20 116:2 148:22 152:5 ,7 153:16 169:14 170:8 171:5 181:12,15 191:6 201:19 210:6 213:12 234:1 236:18 247:2 284:15 288:5 291:21 293:6,8 **provided** 7:18 66:9 67:15 76:7 ,10 77:7 78:10 102:20

103:1 110:17 ,22 111:22 138:8 146:16 148:6 155:21 157:5 162:20 166:1 ,9 169:18 171:4 172:8 178:20 179:6 183:9 205:14 206:1 209:13 212:12 223:16 224:17 225:7 233:18 234:3 ,12,22 235:14,17 ,19,20 250:7 289:12 **provides** 34:13 70:13 133:16 145:4,17 147:15 170:12 172:21 203:22 213:14 223:14 231:6 233:21 236:13 **providing** 40:19 **PSC** 125:14 **PSW** 45:17 **public** 1:1 4:4,8,15 20:12 76:17 145:15 268:15 285:2 **publicly** 251:20 252:4 **publish** 55:8 **published** 18:9 56:22 98:13 112:14 **pull** 21:14 278:5 **pulls** 63:16 **pulse** 25:8 26:7 **pump** 125:10,11 ,12 126:13 127:3 128:8 ,12,16,17 129:1 ,1 ,5 ,10,12 156:14 175:21 176:3 ,7 180:5 ,6 181:7 ,11 ,14,15 241:14 **pumping** 179:22 **pumps** 125:15 ,17 127:7 128:11 ,11 128:19 129:22 178:18 180:12,16 180:17 181:16 292:16,19,20 **purchase** 69:7 ,13 102:1 192:22 231:4 242:16

**purchased** 274:15 275:18 **purchasers** 65:8 **purchases** 217:9,11 274:13 **purchasing** 230:22 **purple** 34:18 **purpose** 11:4 21:13 24:18 27:13 73:9 145:6,19 230:6 250:22 270:3 **purposes** 113:1 254:1 ,19 **push** 280:4 **pushed** 139:20 **pushes** 283:20 **pushing** 278:2 **put** 46:6 59:2,8,9 61:13 62:22 63:7 101:4 109:13 134:18 160:22 171:13 197:6,12 245:9 279:15 281:5 ,7 286:7 292:12 **puts** 286:6 **putting** 44:17 179:2 280:12 **PVC** 158:2,13 165:17 ,19 167:1 168:11 ,13 ,18 174:4,4,6 227:20 **Q quad**  249:2 **qualified** 48:1 53:13 **qualify** 257:11 **quantify** 253:14 **quantitative** 284:16 **quantitatively** 251:12 **quantities** 21:20 **question** 16:1 ,3 20:18 ,21 30:5 ,22 32:12,17 51:9 55:18 60:7 68:9 68:11 86:1 87:8 87:22 98:19 111:18 112:10 116:13 120:17 122:19 127:18 141:14 143:6 150:14 155:19 192:17 198:3 199:9,15 201:15 207:15 208:5

213:19 218:21 222:21 223:2 236:17 237:11 238:16 239:8 242:5 257:21 266:9 274:21 283:5 284:10 292:11 ,20 **questions** 6:22 8:2 11:10 21:18 116:8 127:12 147:12 190:8 196:12 **quick** 16:1 20:21 60:7 68:9 208:5 213:19 248:1 250:10 257:21 261:8 283:4 **quickly** 101:17 116:12 156:10 169:17 217:3 244:6 250:19 285:13 **quite** 86:10,13 157:12 **quotes** 194:4 **QYR** 78:20 **R R**  4:1 **rabbit** 278:5 **radian** 140:21 **radiant** 100:1 ,18 **radiated** 89:13 **radiation** 99:19,22 100:15 101:4,11 151:17 **radiators** 89:8 ,16 **raise** 7:17 195:5 **raised** 229:2 252:10 252:22 253:4 268:17 **raising** 5:4 39:20 281:11 **ran** 115:12 **range** 23:18 28:19 32:13 57:21 58:3 58:18 61:4 63:17 63:18 64:3 80:16 81:13 118:20 128:15 ,17 ,18 129:6 169:5 171:7 254:2 255:21 265:9 283:18 ,21 286:8 ,13 287:11 **ranges** 23:21The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 319 255:18 ,19 **ranging** 198:11 **rate** 51:21 117:15 214:6,21 215:14 215:19 216:22 267:19,21 268:9 **rated** 94:9 253:1 **rates** 198:19,20 204:20 205:7 209:4 213:5 ,5 215:6 216:2,12 228:8 269:4,6 **rating** 26:10 88:5 93:21 94:8 ,19,22 95:6,7 **ratings** 16:19 57:8 74:13 ,16 198:10 **ratio** 123:6 159:12 **raw** 102:20 **re-calculate** 284:20 **re-do** 284:20 **re-gain** 286:17 287:5 **re-line** 192:21 195:12,14 196:21 197:10 **re-lined** 189:14 **re-lining** 157:18 162:8 164:1 ,4 165:8 167:9 170:1 170:18 171:9 172:18 183:21 ,22 184:2 185:21 186:1 ,10 189:2,16 191:8 ,15 ,19 196:10 197:16 **re-pipe** 160:16 **re-piping** 161:3 **re-publish** 155:22 **re-run** 155:22 **re-size** 167:4 **re-sized** 162:15 **re-sizing** 162:11 ,14 170:2,16,17 171:8 186:10 **reach** 236:17 **reached** 47:1 124:6 **read** 10:13 ,17 19:2 19:13 62:15 153:4 245:5 247:16 274:16 276:17 293:21 **reading** 36:12 96:14 104:4 **real** 39:14 45:7 82:21 92:10 146:20,20 147:1 ,2

147:4 201:8 ,13 202:3 203:8 ,10 204:5 246:16 248:1 250:12 257:21 283:4 **realistic** 271:10 **reality** 44:20 47:15 **realize** 198:13 **really** 14:12 27:2 32:13 33:4 43:22 54:10 55:22 61:16 71:22 81:20 83:16 88:8 92:20 96:8 101:17 109:15 ,16 110:5 114:9 116:6 116:12 117:18 133:12 134:10 139:8 ,19 151:16 151:22 154:15 167:21 177:19 180:7 ,14 183:16 190:6 196:14,18 207:12,16 215:2,3 215:22 223:7 227:10 229:22 238:6 239:14 240:10,15 250:11 262:14 264:9 277:5 ,14 278:15 281:14,15 ,17 282:7 ,21 285:13 287:5 289:11 290:5 292:14 293:2,6,22 **reason** 68:20 88:1 109:13 127:21 156:6 164:7 261:10 278:1 280:19 292:13 **reasonable** 43:22 99:15 195:2 276:14 **reasonableness** 227:11 **reasons** 109:18 115:9 184:20 289:13 **rebranding** 67:3 **recall** 98:21 267:20 269:1 **receive** 13:12 285:1 **received** 5:18 16:8 277:4 **receiving** 294:1 **recess** 72:20 143:18 229:15

**recognize** 42:10 48:2 93:4 284:13 288:4 **recognized** 239:15 **recollection** 93:2 **reconcile** 248:6 **record** 7:7 46:5 ,10 55:15 199:1 **recover** 226:12,14 226:22 227:1 ,4 267:5 **recovery** 266:19 **RECS** 74:2,7 75:5 ,8 75:19 76:8 77:8 78:20 79:9 106:1 106:10 108:4,12 108:21 109:13 110:22 114:5 116:22 135:5 136:8 ,9,13 137:2 137:2 138:9 148:21 ,21 149:7 155:5 162:19 209:7 233:7 **rectify** 5:2 **reduce** 14:11 25:15 25:19 26:12,14 101:11 226:14 263:15 269:5 287:2 **reduced** 14:18 25:17 41:6,7 126:6 **reduces** 60:14 **reducing** 45:4 259:6 **reduction** 60:10,11 60:15 ,16 61:22 103:7 106:4 242:22 247:9 261:14 262:7 ,11 263:14 264:4 265:7 272:1 290:20 **reductions** 260:4 261:2 263:6 265:6 267:12 268:8 **refer** 112:12 **references** 136:8 **referred** 198:19 **referring** 84:6 195:17 **refine** 251:16 **reflect** 116:3 217:6 **reflecting** 266:18 **reflects** 217:9 **refresh** 229:5

**Refrigeration** 2:11 2:13 ,15 ,17 ,19 8:20 **refrigerator** 233:15 240:6 **refrigerators** 239:9 **regard** 148:9 262:3 **regarding** 157:13 178:7 204:19 **regardless** 165:1 182:1 263:7 **Reggie** 268:22 **region** 70:22 224:6 **regional** 68:1 71:3 182:22 218:9 268:19 **regions** 68:5 106:2 183:3 223:18 ,22 **Register** 293:16,19 **regular** 200:18 220:3 263:4 **regulated** 206:13 291:13 **regulations** 206:11 211:8 262:13 **regulatory** 15:21 17:22 249:21 251:8 ,11 **REIS** 102:21 183:4 205:18 **reiterates** 10:20 **relate** 69:6,10 227:18 **related** 87:15 120:17 128:11 144:19 157:16 182:9 206:6 228:15 253:9 **relationship** 35:8 ,9 **relative** 22:12 112:10,11 250:4 253:6 263:6,9 272:15 **relatively** 30:7 33:18 **relay** 25:9 **released** 199:22 **relevance** 176:20 **relevant** 24:13 292:14 **reliability** 253:5 **reliable** 26:8 **relied** 27:21 28:21 32:5 34:22 **relies** 283:13 **reline** 164:7 167:4

**relined** 45:8 53:19 162:10,13 164:19 164:22 **relocation** 159:16 159:19 **rely** 253:16 **remaining** 191:18 **remarks** 4:10 5:22 6:1 11:17 13:5 228:21 276:7 **remember** 127:21 221:14 **reminder** 145:6 **remodel** 96:10 102:2 **removal** 156:17 **removing** 156:13 **rent** 225:14 226:4 **rental** 85:13 **rents** 226:9 **repair** 41:20 204:12 204:14,20 205:7 205:21 206:2 208:12,15 ,16,17 228:6 237:10 242:11 243:13 ,17 275:14,19,19,22 278:20 **repaired** 204:22 205:9,10,20 278:19 **repairing** 15:2 204:15 205:2 231:1 **repairs** 208:1 **repeat** 242:4 276:16 **replace** 206:7 223:6 237:10 242:12 **replaced** 99:17 128:1 237:21 ,21 **replacement** 45:13 50:4 53:19 65:18 65:19 66:7 69:21 71:2 100:6 138:11 157:10 158:5 162:1 ,17 199:11 223:10 231:17 232:11 252:12 277:6 278:9 **replacements** 70:2,3 96:4,7 98:22 99:1 100:10 140:19 156:12,13 230:16 231:13 **replacing** 165:17The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 320 204:15 231:1 **report** 67:17 ,18 106:10 149:7 268:14 **reported** 149:17 163:3 **reports** 108:4,21 205:19 262:18 ,21 **represent** 54:9 59:7 62:17 ,18 ,20 66:3 70:1 80:21 137:7 255:19 **representative** 21:16 29:11 194:6 **representatives** 5:11 **representing** 9:2 **represents** 138:14 138:15 254:16,18 263:11 **request** 13:12 15:15 16:4,8,12,15 17:9 19:18 20:21 55:4 55:5 135:5 ,7 ,10 135:13 ,20 138:21 141:10 146:13 190:20 227:9,11 228:5 ,12,18 239:4 240:14 243:6 246:8 **requested** 140:11 153:19 194:22 **requesting** 240:14 259:12 **requests** 60:5 71:7 135:18 136:1 228:9 249:16 **require** 141:2 162:8 163:3 164:3 170:4 171:1 177:14 178:17 179:22 180:11 189:2 191:14 252:1 **required** 20:6 162:12 172:5 191:9 205:15 228:1 273:4 **requirement** 273:2 **requirements** 18:4 18:11 ,12,22 19:1 19:4 52:6 253:3 272:17 273:14 **requires** 99:16,20 164:1 **RESC** 210:11 232:4 **research** 207:12 209:11 255:2

**reservation** 280:14 280:16 **Reserve** 213:11 **RESI** 183:11 **residential** 1:2 4:5 4:16 11:5 13:22 21:19 22:5 ,19 24:6 32:12,15 33:18 66:2,4,21 68:3 ,4 70:16 75:10 84:10 85:20 98:2,6,10 115:12 137:13 145:7 148:13 150:8 157:10 168:22 169:5 207:14 209:5 213:8 ,10,20 213:20 227:18 228:8 231:1 241:12 251:2 258:20 **residentials** 215:7 **resistance** 241:15 **resolve** 195:7 **respect** 153:18 286:2 **respected** 278:16 **responding** 54:3 122:22 **response** 7:1 8:4 13:7 15:9 16:21 27:10 64:14 72:15 135:17 259:20 274:4 276:14 **restricting** 85:18 **restrictions** 41:11 **result** 11:22 13:1 ,3 144:10 202:9 203:10 258:7 285:1 **resulted** 46:14 **resulting** 259:6 **results** 34:18 35:7 70:14,15 77:17 102:19 132:13 133:17 146:16 179:4 222:17 224:16 225:7 ,17 255:17 ,17 ,19 261:2 **resume** 72:19 143:17 229:10 **retail** 66:11 ,18 **retailer** 66:13 **retailers** 67:1 ,4 **retain** 172:13

**retired** 209:5 **retirement** 231:14 233:3 **retrofit** 15:4 **retrofits** 41:21 **return** 79:6 88:18 89:2,3 ,4,10,17 ,20 90:4,6 94:3 ,4,17 95:16,21 96:2,6 98:19 99:4,9,11 135:12 **revenue** 256:17 **review** 5:21 156:1 276:14 288:12 **revised** 18:11 288:8 288:13 ,14 **reworking** 284:12 **RIA** 6:12 249:21 **Richard** 3:6 **rick** 8:21 20:20 30:20,21 39:15 ,16 116:13 ,15 132:19 132:20 155:17 159:13 ,14 172:9 198:2,5 ,6 228:22 229:6 272:13 273:17 289:6,7 **right** 15:21 16:5 23:7 26:5 ,13 ,16 38:20 44:2 55:6 58:11 83:17 87:3 88:3 93:1 104:2,7 105:9 117:21 120:15 121:5 ,11 123:15 130:6,20 137:2 151:2 152:7 154:9,21 164:14 168:15 ,16 184:13 184:17 186:4 187:15 189:6 191:22 193:3 197:2,2,14,18 207:3 219:15 230:1 239:8 242:19 248:10 261:22 262:1 264:11 266:5 ,17 266:21 269:7 279:11 280:22 283:18 **rigorous** 19:10 47:16 **rise** 84:18 151:19 218:6 **rises** 84:7 221:19 **rising** 214:20,21

**risk** 14:16 25:21 47:12 258:6 **Rivest** 2:7 9:14,14 20:17 21:7 ,8,9,13 22:4,12,22 24:4 24:18 25:11 ,22 27:6,13 28:5 ,15 29:3 ,15 30:11 31:4,8 33:3 ,7 34:13 35:4 36:16 38:3 ,22 40:4,16 43:4 56:9,12 58:6 58:12 60:1 ,16 61:8 ,11 ,16 64:16 **Robert** 199:9,9 **rock** 273:13 **Roda** 3:7 9:3 ,3 16:3 85:11 ,11 177:22 190:10 247:22,22 248:11 **Roder** 30:7 ,19 47:6 47:6 153:13 ,13 154:5 ,21 155:1 171:21 ,21 172:6 183:14,15 ,19 184:13 185:13 186:4 188:17 190:20 191:10,22 192:7 ,13 **Roger** 3:1 8:10 42:2 42:3 91:5 ,6 100:21 105:16 111:4 112:8 113:17 160:8 ,9 161:4 206:17 ,18 285:21 **roll** 244:12 **rolling** 27:4 **Ron** 17:12 **Ron's** 17:14 **roof** 49:18 ,20 89:15 **room** 1:6 4:20 5:10 5:11 7:19,21 11:2 72:19 121:19 139:12 150:17 155:9,14 160:6 168:3 **root** 280:16 **Rosenstock** 3:8 8:17 8:17 12:14,15 ,15 25:14,14 26:18 57:15 ,16,16 58:9 58:9,13 ,13 60:22 61:1 ,1 ,10,12 62:14,14 63:1 ,6 63:11 ,14,14 68:7

68:8 ,8,22,22 80:13 ,13 81:2,3 81:19 103:5 ,5 105:7 ,7 108:8 ,8 108:15 ,15 109:9,9 110:5 118:15 ,15 119:4,6,14,19,19 121:16,16,21 126:22 127:1 ,1 ,17 128:7 ,13 ,13 ,22 129:4,9,13 ,16 133:19,19 134:3 ,7 134:7 139:4,5 140:6,6 146:18 ,18 150:1 ,1 ,22,22 151:5 155:2,3 ,3 155:12 167:17 ,17 168:4,7 200:9,9 201:20,20 203:1 ,1 204:3 ,3 ,7 ,9 213:17 ,17 214:2 214:15 ,15 215:20 215:20 221:3 ,3 ,11 221:11 225:18 ,19 225:19 237:11 ,12 240:17 ,17 241:10 243:10,10,15 249:6,6,11 257:21 258:4,4,15 261:6 261:6 262:1 ,3 263:13 ,13 ,22,22 267:7 ,7 270:11 ,11 271:16,16 **rough** 36:13 ,16 **roughly** 115:3 186:3 **round** 117:3 **rounding** 268:6,11 268:13 **row** 49:15 83:18 ,19 84:19 85:5 ,6 105:14 137:7 184:15 237:7 279:18 283:7 **rows** 171:5 255:18 **RS** 148:13 204:17 205:16 **rule** 5:3 12:18 14:8 18:10 20:13 86:12 129:21 148:16,16 248:10,12 262:4 264:12,14 269:18 271:2,13 ,18 ,22 272:6,10,15 273:2 273:18 276:2 286:22 287:3The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 321 292:19,21 **rulemaking** 4:4 14:6,13 21:1 56:12 59:19 71:13 82:5 84:11 86:12 129:20 142:4 225:21 256:12 260:16 270:17 292:14 **rulemakings** 107:5 277:22 **rules** 154:17 262:13 262:18 263:3 272:4 **run** 14:16 168:21 169:5 227:5 279:14 290:15 **running** 114:20 283:12,14 **runs** 117:6 **S S**  4:1 **safe** 43:14 282:17 293:9 **safely** 39:8 44:6,9 48:17 293:11 **safer** 291:19 **safety** 25:4 43:1 ,5 ,8 43:8 ,15 45:4,20 278:14,21 280:9 **sale** 68:2 102:5 146:5 **sales** 22:13 55:1 67:21 ,22 70:19 98:12 133:10 146:6 205:18 224:7 277:6 **sample** 68:5 75:7 ,9 75:9 76:1 ,1 ,5 137:16 148:21 194:6 **sampled** 75:21 **samples** 76:6 105:21 137:8 **Sarah** 3:3 9:1 **satisfy** 101:5 **saturation** 231:9 **saturations** 232:4 **save** 60:20,21 250:2 250:3 263:10 **saved** 248:4 **saving** 61:14 62:22 274:11 **savings** 12:1 ,1 ,5 ,7 ,9 61:4,6 62:18 ,20 64:1 73:12 96:17

132:14,18 ,18 134:1 ,13 ,17 ,20 136:21 144:17 202:11 ,13 215:12 221:21 224:19 230:9 241:5 244:8 244:21 247:14 249:4,13 250:8 260:21 265:20 266:13 269:12 **saw** 38:6 56:4 **saying** 26:6 55:15 119:6,9,16 127:6 130:14 141:15 150:2,7 153:6 164:18 ,20 185:2 187:7 ,8 193:11 ,11 194:15 ,18 ,20 196:14,21 197:15 201:2 241:1 242:21 261:13 ,13 269:20 280:14 284:14 **says** 36:8 ,11 ,18 53:18 86:21 136:8 150:5 167:7 174:6 183:21 187:19 190:12 195:3 196:13 197:8 ,13 203:7 248:19 266:10 274:22 275:10,10 276:3 **SBA** 257:6 **scale** 33:21 34:8 69:16 118:20 **scattered** 81:9 **scenario** 59:8 ,12 220:10 254:4,5 ,8 254:9,10,16 **scenarios** 57:19 59:15 146:14 201:18 247:8 254:2 255:20 **schedule** 19:17 20:1 **Science** 260:19 **score** 290:22 **scramble** 63:20 **screen** 24:19 **screened** 25:6 26:17 43:10 **screening** 6:6 21:11 24:19,22 25:5 43:1 **season** 118:12 126:18 136:3 **SEC** 251:21

**second** 104:15 141:1 150:5 ,20,21 181:13 200:3 226:11 227:3 252:17 254:8 **secondary** 35:21 75:12 79:9 103:22 179:20 181:7 206:11 246:2 **secondly** 51:14 **section** 91:20 144:5 151:13 248:3 273:8 286:12 **sectional** 29:10 **sector** 261:11 **see** 4:3 ,9 5:19 7:22 10:10,15 11:11 ,12 18:8 20:2,10 22:4 22:13 23:5 24:22 27:14 28:15 29:9 36:7 37:17 40:12 45:12 54:16 57:12 57:18 59:15 69:22 81:9 94:7 95:2,6 103:2 104:21 110:15 117:7 ,18 128:17 129:6 132:17 133:18 138:21 139:1 141:11 159:15 165:3 174:15 176:19 187:16,18 188:20 189:4 193:10 194:4 198:8 202:14 208:20 215:22 223:18 ,21 224:2 226:21 228:18 ,19 229:11 237:5 ,18 238:6 243:6,7 244:16 245:4,13 246:17 247:9 248:21 250:8 261:4 262:17 265:2,8 266:1 267:9,18 269:4,5 277:15 285:15 ,17 288:22 289:3 ,22 **seeing** 7:2 19:19 80:16 81:4 145:22 249:1 288:13 **seeking** 38:22 **seen** 26:1 33:3 51:12 62:8 200:22 201:1 244:10,13 264:9 279:4,4

**sees** 59:10 **segment** 72:8 230:15 **segments** 23:6 95:19 **selected** 27:17 29:17 29:21 31:8 57:1 **selecting** 19:7 **selection** 23:4 28:9 28:10 29:16 **selfish** 154:15 **sell** 54:14 67:2 257:18 278:7 ,10 280:19 **selling** 27:15 65:3 69:7 ,9,11 ,15 137:20,21 **sells** 54:11 66:6,13 66:14,15 67:1 **semi-objective** 211:22 **send** 16:11 17:12 67:6 136:15 137:1 **senior-only** 225:6 **sense** 92:11 107:6 124:8 141:7 191:2 194:3 ,13 212:21 282:20 **sensitive** 280:8 **sensitivity** 147:3 201:12,15 203:5 ,6 203:14 212:18 221:13 222:3 242:19,20 272:5 **separate** 66:17 109:19 110:5 180:11 256:5 ,8 **separated** 83:6 **separately** 37:17 **September** 18:15 **series** 247:12 **serious** 48:3 ,8 163:21 **serve** 42:12 145:21 272:20 286:9 287:11 **served** 42:16 78:4 78:18 80:1 **service** 25:2 35:12 209:5 **services** 274:15 **set** 18:3 ,11 44:21 55:10 139:9,10 156:14 281:2 291:6 **setting** 250:1

**settled** 136:18 **seven** 19:8 ,9 265:19 **shape** 45:8 **share** 39:22 59:10 59:19 67:9 217:6 218:6 221:15 ,22 222:14,16 223:4,9 223:15 245:14,17 255:8 283:8 285:16,18 290:6 293:3 **shared** 80:2,4 83:15 155:21 **shares** 215:17 **sheet** 141:10 **shell** 77:9 79:14 82:22 83:16,19 84:4 103:7 **shells** 103:12 **Shephard** 85:22 86:2,6,18 87:6 193:18 ,18 194:21 194:21 218:20,22 219:5 ,15 220:1 233:10,10,19 238:14,14,20 239:2 241:21 242:5 ,13 ,17 257:13 ,13 ,19 265:14,14 266:3 ,7 266:9,21 269:14 274:20 276:1 **Shepherd** 2:14 **ship** 284:8 **shipment** 28:20 55:7 69:20 77:13 209:8 217:14 229:19 230:3 ,6,7 230:14 231:12 233:22 235:9 236:18 237:1 **shipments** 6:11 22:15 28:18 66:4 76:9 77:18 97:19 101:19 102:9 103:8 133:13 ,14 135:22 139:3 141:15 142:1 ,7 ,10 142:17 ,18 143:6 162:20 217:18 ,19 222:10 223:17 224:8 229:11 231:7 ,11 ,14,18 232:6,7 ,8 ,10,11 232:18 ,20,21 ,22The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 322 233:6 234:2,2,6,7 235:2,5 ,6,7 ,8,15 235:16,21 236:2,6 236:10,14 237:9 237:14,15 238:1 239:5 241:1 ,16,19 243:19 245:12 246:4 253:19,20 261:22 275:17 ,20 275:21 **shipped** 27:3 224:5 **shipping** 252:5 258:11 **shock** 241:18 **shocked** 241:15 **SHOLER** 87:8 ,22 **short** 16:15 ,22 72:20 159:7 169:3 229:15 279:14,14 **show** 38:5 70:19 93:20 119:21 144:10 221:19 247:13 248:8 256:14 266:1 288:17 **showed** 40:8 **showing** 59:21 60:11 80:19 115:3 141:21 146:21 176:12 202:1 218:18 237:13 ,15 262:14,17 264:11 270:19 281:17 **shown** 19:2 38:7 43:5 52:3 65:14 65:22 66:1 67:15 71:4 105:9 111:10 118:8 122:12 268:9,14,16 **shows** 15:14 19:6,16 22:22 30:2 69:21 95:5 104:14 110:11 132:4,12 144:7 ,16 148:19 178:12,15 220:21 236:22 245:15 261:1 **shut** 126:17 ,21 136:2 139:14 284:11 **shutoff** 109:15 140:9 **shutting** 139:6 **shy** 5:4 **side** 11:7 ,8 40:6 159:8 160:5 ,7 192:14 286:20

**sidewall** 41:4,11 ,13 41:15 **sideways** 177:1 **sight** 282:13 **significant** 11:22 41:21 64:3 67:10 81:4 86:19 103:2 106:5 112:18 114:7 150:11 187:12 212:4 248:3 ,4,18 271:3 283:11 288:7 **significantly** 54:13 182:16 184:10 198:20 199:3 223:20 243:12,18 262:20 **silent** 7:12 **silicate** 199:12 **similar** 28:22 31:19 31:21 52:14 66:19 72:2 89:18 95:1 95:15 98:5 108:6 110:12,19,21 112:3 113:14 133:14 149:20 172:22 173:13 174:7 191:20 207:22 210:4 218:7 246:3 256:21 ,22 **Similarly** 163:10 **simple** 33:21 **simplified** 123:4 **simply** 48:19 212:1 **simulated** 36:10 37:9 **simultaneous** 14:5 **simultaneously** 290:16 **single** 56:14 78:4,6 78:18 90:2 97:16 180:5 184:4 192:22 193:11 ,12 220:11 287:12 **single-** 83:6 **single-family** 83:1 ,4 84:6,14 85:16 **single-stage** 74:18 75:2 88:9 94:1 97:2 **single-zoned** 180:16 **sit** 20:10 154:13 **site** 260:13 **sitting** 279:17 **situation** 47:8 110:3 110:9 118:22 143:1 159:22 161:2 163:15 ,16 165:15 ,16 167:3 169:22 170:7 173:1 ,13 184:7 192:18 195:20 246:5 288:11 **situations** 41:13 ,14 41:18 45:18 48:3 96:9 118:18 140:3 152:17 159:5 ,7 **six** 22:5 66:8 137:12 237:19 242:16 250:5 **six-tenths** 248:5 **size** 33:4 34:7 45:1 76:21 162:4 184:10 257:7 **sized** 164:6 **sizes** 34:9 **sizing** 76:20 77:6 **skill** 44:21 **slide** 5:19 10:20 11:6,12 15:13 ,14 15:18 18:6,20 19:5 ,6,15 ,16 20:8 21:12 22:3 ,8,11 22:21 24:3 ,17 25:10 27:12 28:4 28:5 ,14 29:2,14 30:2,10 34:12,13 34:20 35:3 36:5 38:2,7 ,19 39:2 42:6 50:12 54:4 56:11 59:14,22 60:10 65:1 67:11 69:4,6 70:12,13 73:7 75:3 ,6 77:21 78:13 82:7 ,16 86:21 88:11 93:17 95:3 96:14 97:13 102:12,13 106:6 110:10,11 118:2 121:22 122:7 ,8 125:6 131:18 132:4,11 ,12 133:7 133:15 ,16 136:8 144:6,7 145:3 ,4 145:16,17 147:14 147:15 ,20 148:18 148:19 156:7 157:14,22 158:6 161:20 165:13 ,21 167:14 169:12 170:8 ,10,11 ,12

171:2 172:20,21 173:14 174:10,11 174:16,17 ,18 175:6,16 176:12 176:12,13 178:11 178:12 179:1 ,3 ,8 182:4,12 183:19 184:18 185:20 189:17 195:20 198:8 204:13 205:12 208:13 ,15 208:22 213:3 ,4 216:20 217:4 218:17 220:19,20 221:6 222:6 223:13 ,14 224:13 225:1 227:8 ,9 228:4 230:4,5 231:5 ,6,21 232:1 233:20,21 236:12 236:13 ,21 ,22 239:3 240:18 244:15 ,17 245:2,3 245:18 246:2,3 ,14 246:16,17 247:4 249:14,19,20 250:21 255:14 256:3 ,14 259:11 260:22 261:1 264:15 ,20 265:8 274:6,8,17 285:13 **slides** 5:21 10:12,16 28:13 68:6 88:13 144:21 147:10 148:1 157:13 ,21 161:18 165:12 169:13 195:20 199:17 216:18 217:2 218:10 230:20 233:2 237:3 247:12 250:20 261:9 289:2 **slightly** 96:21 103:12 123:3 **slipped** 137:4 **small** 33:18 92:17 100:18 108:13 109:22 118:21 127:5 129:20,20 140:22 165:4 186:11 188:13 248:22 251:6 256:7 ,10,11 ,16,18 256:20 257:5 ,12 259:13 ,15 264:8

284:19 **smaller** 28:21 33:2 34:4,9 45:9 184:10 259:9 265:11 **smooth** 4:21 **smoothly** 5:1 **snow** 73:17 **SO2** 260:14 **SOB** 289:3 **social** 265:17 275:2 **software** 7:18 **Sohler** 3:9 8:8 ,8 42:20,20 43:11 ,21 44:15 52:1 ,1 87:9 88:10 92:22,22 93:12,16 97:22,22 98:11 115:17 ,17 122:18 ,18 123:8 123:15 124:1 125:3 151:7 ,7 ,12 152:7 153:3 161:7 161:7 ,16,19 163:20,20 164:15 164:20 165:10 169:3 179:14,14 180:15 181:3 ,10 184:19 185:15 188:20 192:15 193:1 ,4,7 196:13 197:3 ,9,18 207:9 207:9 211:20 258:17 273:12,22 283:3 ,3 285:5 ,11 **sold** 21:19,20,21 47:15 54:9,10,13 54:14 252:13 **Solutions** 4:9 **somebody** 101:4 290:21 **something's** 36:22 **sorry** 21:4 26:2 37:1 90:18 105:4 119:11 123:8 138:19 161:14 174:7 188:6,9 238:22 245:22 270:17 271:10 **sort** 25:22 37:19 40:9 64:10 138:10 211:22 216:2,4 219:9 226:6 270:15 **sorts** 226:15 **sounds** 43:18The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 323 248:22 253:11 **source** 75:13 211:22 233:12 **sourced** 258:13 ,18 **sources** 27:22 148:13 183:6 204:17 213:10 227:16 228:6 231:22 235:7 **space** 73:14,16,20 74:11 76:12 78:11 91:11 106:17 ,22 107:17 109:7 ,19 113:1 ,20 118:6,9 118:12 119:12,13 120:21 122:3 ,15 123:11 124:7 135:7 151:1 152:19 166:16 168:2 **spaces** 90:9 178:4 **spanning** 31:9 **spark** 126:11 127:18 **speak** 7:3 ,8 11:2 12:13 **speaking** 13:21 **specific** 5:8 11:14 32:10 34:15 37:15 40:18 148:7 161:14 171:6 187:9 **specifically** 37:7 55:1 95:12 142:3 **specifics** 41:17 **spent** 216:5 291:2 **spilling** 46:14 **spills** 214:19 **split** 51:6 **spoken** 212:9 **spread** 284:4 **spreadsheet** 145:14 198:12 **spreadsheets** 155:22 244:20 289:21 **spring** 139:18 271:22 **springtime** 139:9 **sprinkled** 15:16 **square** 75:16 77:7 99:19,22 232:3 **squeeze** 42:15 **squeezes** 286:8 **staff** 13:12 **stage** 19:4 20:11 ,13 76:17 90:2 97:16

**stainless** 23:12 157:19 158:13 161:11 ,12 163:1 ,4 163:4,9,16 166:20 167:1 170:5 ,20 171:11 172:4 174:3 ,21 175:1 185:11 ,14 191:16 191:17 192:3 ,4,6 228:2 **stakeholders** 19:21 20:13 193:14 **stakeholders'** 126:19 **stance** 40:19 **stand** 280:22 **stand-alone** 117:15 276:21 **standard** 12:9 14:15 19:12 20:4 20:6 25:21 29:5 41:18 43:3 91:13 91:19 93:13 96:17 116:18 ,22 117:15 130:8 ,15 132:15 152:15 168:13 217:12 219:1 220:3 ,5 225:5 237:1 ,2,20 245:9 250:1 ,2 252:11 ,17 253:9 260:5 272:16 273:4 285:9 288:12 289:19,20 290:15 **standards** 1:2 3:2 4:5 ,14 9:9 11:22 12:21 18:5 ,8 19:7 22:9,10 29:8 30:3 40:22 56:13 ,14,20 102:18 207:1 217:8 ,10 218:12 220:7 221:15 228:12 230:22 245:10 250:2,4 251:1 ,4,5 ,7 ,13 253:15 254:13 255:1 256:6 257:7 258:7 259:1 ,2,3 259:10,14 260:21 292:18 **standby** 22:10 24:9 27:20 56:13 ,14,20 57:8 ,14,20 58:19 60:3 ,5 ,9 64:12 74:13 ,15 107:10 113:12,13 118:5 ,9

122:10,11 ,13 123:21 126:16 133:17 134:14 139:16,22 140:2 218:11 219:1 220:6,13 228:13 247:5 ,14 259:1 261:5 265:12 **standbys** 58:11 **standpoint** 42:11 91:16 101:9 178:4 287:17 ,18 **Stanonik** 2:18 8:19 8:19 17:7 ,8,8 ,17 26:19,20,20 32:8 32:9,9 33:6,6,9 36:3 ,4,4,18 37:22 38:16,16 39:3 ,4,4 48:4,5 50:19,19 60:7 ,8,18 71:9,10 71:10 82:14,15 ,18 83:8 ,8 84:16,16 85:9 92:6,7 ,7 96:11 ,12,12 97:7 97:7 ,17 104:2 105:1 ,5 114:12,12 117:10,10 120:16 120:16 121:10 130:2,2 136:5 ,6 137:18 138:17 142:12,12 143:10 168:9 176:10,11 186:13 187:2,15 187:17 188:6,9,12 208:5 224:3 ,3 236:16,16 239:6,7 239:12 245:21 ,22 246:13 287:22 288:1 ,1 **staple** 100:2 **Star** 217:18 218:1 223:4 234:15 ,15 **start** 4:10 17:22 34:5 49:19 75:8 81:10 127:11 146:3 220:4,4 229:19 230:3 289:22 **started** 85:17 210:10 **starting** 6:4 28:7 33:14 60:1 71:16 127:9 148:9 262:8 **starts** 141:5 220:16 231:9 278:12 **Stas** 2:5 9:17 ,17

46:7 ,7 248:15 249:10 293:15 **state** 45:21 107:16 198:22 199:2 202:3 207:5 **state-level** 292:18 **statement** 13:17 40:8 ,13 ,14,16 100:9 112:11 163:22 **statements** 11:19 275:3 **states** 210:21 211:11 ,17 292:17 **statistical** 216:8 **statistically** 248:7 **statistics** 51:15 ,19 54:8 76:6 **statutory** 265:18 **stay** 202:8 291:8 **steam** 18:18 23:14 23:22 32:3 ,5 34:21 35:16,22 70:10 75:20 76:1 76:2,4 115:22 136:12,17 137:11 137:19,21 138:2,4 138:15 ,16 173:18 222:17 284:5 289:4 **steel** 23:10,13 ,20 157:19 158:13 161:11 ,13 163:1 ,4 163:4,9,17 166:20 167:1 170:20 171:11 172:4 174:3 ,21 175:2 185:12,14 191:16 191:17 192:3 ,4,6 228:2 234:8 235:7 235:11 **step** 29:15 35:6 36:5 49:5 187:20 276:15 **steps** 28:6 **Steve** 8:17 12:14,15 26:3 57:15 ,16 58:9,13 60:22 61:1 62:14 63:14 68:7 ,8,20 80:13 81:3 103:5 105:7 108:8 ,15 109:9 118:15 119:19 121:16 126:22 127:1 128:13 129:19 133:19

134:7 139:3 ,4 140:6 146:17 ,18 149:22 150:1 ,22 155:2,3 167:17 200:9 201:20 203:1 204:3 213:16,17 214:15 215:20 221:3 ,11 225:18 ,19 237:11 240:16,17 243:10 249:6 258:4 261:6 263:13 ,22 264:17 267:7 270:11 271:16 **Steven** 3:8 25:14 68:22 **stock** 190:4 210:13 231:20 **STOHLER** 45:22 46:4,11 **stolen** 268:3 **STONONIK** 38:20 **stop** 218:20 275:20 **stopped** 138:17 **stops** 32:15 **store** 66:11 **stories** 84:21 184:16 279:5 **stratified** 283:18 **stream** 81:21 **strengthen** 293:7 **stretch** 260:1 **strictly** 249:4 **structural** 92:4 **structure** 21:15 34:2 252:19 **structured** 252:14 **struggling** 183:17 **studies** 91:14,15 205:5 210:2 211:2 **study** 107:16 112:12,14,19 113:2 225:21 **stuff** 38:1 85:7 280:4,5 282:15 285:19 **Stunder** 3:10 9:20 9:20 13:15 45:16 45:17 **style** 85:7 **Stylized** 36:11 **subgroup** 144:5 214:19,22 225:3 ,5 256:8 **subgroups** 251:4The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 324 252:7 256:5 **subject** 26:4 248:13 280:8 **submit** 193:1 293:14,21 **submittal** 232:22 234:12 **submittals** 234:9 **submitted** 17:9 86:15 194:9,10 195:5 **submitting** 15:19 **subset** 137:11 ,19 **subsidiaries** 257:11 **subtract** 79:12 268:2 **succinct** 7:11 **sued** 281:21 **sufficient** 82:2 209:21 **suggest** 194:11 210:18 211:13 276:1 **suggested** 225:16 **suggesting** 191:22 273:18 **suggestion** 227:13 **suggests** 211:7 **sulfur** 206:10,21 ,22 207:3 260:10 **summarize** 140:14 **summarizes** 208:15 **summarizing** 218:15 **summary** 5:22 11:19 18:22 145:20 169:15 266:22 **summer** 114:19 **summertime** 139:9 **supplement** 253:21 **supplies** 181:11 ,13 181:14,17 **supply** 61:19 62:9 78:9 89:20 206:21 **support** 25:18 48:6 61:3 62:16 64:6 80:16 100:12 101:12 118:17 133:22 214:4 276:12 277:3 290:13 ,16 **supported** 291:4 **supportive** 11:21 **supposed** 63:4 98:6 **sure** 6:19 21:5 30:11 36:6 39:7 44:8 64:8 71:15 86:9 111:11 160:19 168:12 181:17 200:12 212:12 229:21 240:8 257:20 282:7 **surface** 35:17 ,19 36:2 **surprised** 241:19 **survey** 71:20 72:2 206:1 209:6,7 213:11 214:18 216:15 **surveying** 71:20 **suspect** 111:12 **SW** 1:7 **swear** 279:6 **switch** 56:16 61:18 101:20 139:20 232:12 **switches** 56:17 ,18 **switching** 62:9 102:10 172:15 ,17 230:18 231:18 **sword** 280:2 **system** 26:7 48:16 99:3 ,17 ,21 100:7 101:22 110:6 112:18 124:12 170:2 174:21 176:17 177:2 180:16,20 182:2 206:5 273:6,7 276:21 277:1 ,12 281:10 286:15 **systems** 50:5 109:19 112:14 125:10 140:17 ,18 ,21 155:10 180:10,11 252:15 **T t**  173:6 289:11 **table** 18:21 28:16 29:6 64:12 67:15 69:21 70:14 76:7 80:15 94:1 104:20 105:14,18 110:17 138:8 ,18 157:6 177:9,13 207:11 214:3 256:14 261:11 ,20 262:4 266:3 ,10,21 269:10 289:17 **tables** 24:8 93:20

224:22 266:1 275:9 **tad** 229:21 **take** 6:9,12 11:17 49:5 53:12 72:13 72:16 79:5 ,8,13 79:19 82:3 88:17 90:15 94:15 107:20 108:3 114:9 122:2,9 123:5 124:11 127:15 138:20 145:15 147:17 ,21 148:2 149:11 153:21 154:19 157:7 ,11 ,16 158:10,22 159:17 163:17 ,21 166:2,4 167:5 172:11 175:20,22 176:2,4 183:2,16 184:17 195:1 198:18 199:16 203:19 206:9 213:1 214:13 215:7 220:13 223:9 224:1 228:19 229:8 ,9 234:13 236:15 242:21 243:7 247:20 250:19 276:8 ,13 276:14,20 285:5 ,6 285:19 289:15 **taken** 72:20 105:22 113:21 143:18 153:17 166:6 180:22 190:18 195:6 229:15 232:19 244:17 282:22 285:2 287:1 **takes** 30:9 55:22 121:8 159:11 178:18 223:5 231:17 241:4 263:11 285:16 **talk** 33:10 89:1 119:22 120:19 121:1 122:6 132:9 134:16 144:14,20 167:18 200:4 212:9 232:18 250:14 260:2 **talked** 36:13 188:21 219:3 284:16 **talking** 33:16,17

36:20 49:9,10,11 49:19 50:6,17 63:22 64:12,21 68:6 84:2 92:12 118:19 131:22 134:9 142:19 144:4 146:1 148:1 158:2 167:15 177:3 179:10 182:7 185:11 ,16 188:14 202:17 247:6 264:6 266:3 278:15 **talks** 248:2 274:8 **tank** 106:16 108:22 109:2 112:6 **tankless** 82:2,3 ,8,10 106:19 107:18 ,22 108:10,14,16,18 109:1 ,1 ,14 110:3 110:7 111:8 112:7 112:16 **tanks** 107:22 111:15 **target** 124:6 288:11 **tax** 67:21 ,22 70:19 222:22 223:1 **taxes** 68:2 146:5 ,6 **tear** 28:1 ,10,18 ,21 31:9,10,16,18 ,19 31:21 32:4,10,17 32:21 34:16 37:5 38:1 40:5 61:11 **tear-down** 28:16 30:9,11 **tearing** 277:9 **tech** 29:18 42:7 ,8,11 48:9,9 165:1 189:3 197:11 218:14 237:8 ,13 237:16 240:21 243:11 ,15 ,16 286:5 **technical** 16:17 25:18 61:3 62:2 62:16 80:16 118:17 133:21 184:20 192:14 214:4 274:8 276:12 277:3 280:6 **technically** 44:20 **techniques** 31:12 **technologically** 25:1 247:18 **technologies** 21:21

24:15 ,19 25:16 61:5 62:19 220:14 **technology** 6:5 7:22 20:16 21:10,14 24:4,5 ,8,11 ,21 25:6 26:1 28:8 30:1 42:7 ,9 43:4 43:12,13 ,20 44:5 45:15 60:2 61:6 61:13 74:17 89:11 125:18 126:3 252:12,18 259:6 **telephones** 7:16 **tell** 38:17 51:7 59:11 154:11 ,14 181:20 193:16 203:17 281:21 **telling** 96:15 104:5 104:11 **tells** 51:20 212:2 **temper** 26:11 **temperature** 18:16 77:11 79:6 88:19 89:2,17 ,19,20 90:4,6 95:16,21 96:2,6 97:4 98:19 99:4,9,20,21 100:15 ,17 101:10 124:6 135:14,15 139:13 140:15 ,15 140:17 ,19,21 **temperatures** 14:18 41:6 55:20 89:10 94:3 ,4,17 135:12 **tenants** 225:13 ,16 226:8 227:4 **tend** 23:14 151:19 201:9 202:11 **tendency** 284:8 **tens** 187:21 **term** 30:8 **terminology** 82:8 **terms** 13:2 40:4 64:4 70:6 73:19 82:12 88:18 90:7 91:1 92:13 96:4 99:5 107:2,14 118:10 124:9,12 124:14,16 125:19 126:10,16 127:3 131:2,3 ,20,21 132:10,13 ,14 133:17 134:1 138:7 139:16 142:17 147:18The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 325 148:9 153:10 155:6,8 157:4,15 158:15 ,22 161:11 161:22 162:11 ,15 165:18 166:3 169:15 170:15 171:7 ,8,13 173:12 174:9,12 186:1 191:15 202:4 205:8 ,21 213:5 215:7 218:11 222:13 224:17 225:9 230:22 234:14 247:9 248:21 261:11 ,19 264:8 265:7 267:9 271:9 272:7 **terracotta** 164:5 **test** 14:5 ,10 24:7 57:6 76:16 77:15 80:8 86:22 87:2,5 87:7 ,14 89:18 90:16,18 93:6,8 122:5 288:8 290:15 **testing** 16:18 28:2 62:6 64:10 255:3 290:18 **text** 5:11 **thank** 4:12 5:5 12:12,17 13:3 ,4 14:3 15:6 17:1 21:6,8 26:18 27:7 30:19 31:7 34:11 42:18 55:4,14 56:7 ,9 64:18 68:11 69:3 72:11 81:19 82:13 ,20 85:21 88:10 92:5 92:15 93:16 97:12 98:15 ,17 100:19 100:20 101:14,15 104:13 113:8 114:2 116:6 118:1 120:14 121:21 125:5 127:13 ,17 128:5 130:1 ,21 131:19 133:4 134:5 135:1 ,2 137:5 141:8 144:2 147:5 ,6 151:5 154:21 160:20 164:11 167:13 168:7 169:9 177:6 181:2 182:5 187:5 197:20,22 199:8 199:15 200:1

201:14 203:21 204:10 207:6,7 ,18 211:19 212:15 214:11 215:5 222:4,5 223:2 224:10 227:7 229:9 240:12 249:11 258:15 ,21 263:5 269:7 ,9,20 272:11 273:22 276:5 ,10 283:1 285:11 289:8 292:8 ,9 293:1 ,7 **thanks** 10:9,14 17:18 38:1 42:1 47:4 73:1 83:21 115:16 116:5 125:4 131:16 141:9 161:19 181:3 ,4 182:3 204:4 229:17 246:13 250:17 257:19 274:2 289:2 290:11 294:2 **theory** 274:17 **thereto** 92:4 **thermal** 95:13 **thermostat** 120:2 120:13 122:22 123:12 139:9,10 156:16 **therms** 114:21 115:1 ,13 **they'd** 47:13 **thing** 22:7 24:10,14 92:8 114:4,4 115:21 145:10 148:12 151:12 195:19 200:19 211:20 240:2 241:10 275:10 276:21 280:1 ,1 282:14 283:5 289:2 291:16 **things** 5:1 42:6 45:6 45:14 51:16 53:9 58:10 60:19 62:10 91:9 111:17 124:12 131:2 136:6 179:17 250:5 262:22 275:14 276:17 ,18 277:20 280:15 286:4 287:8 **think** 5:14 13:14,18

26:3 ,5 32:11 39:7 39:10,14 40:16 41:1 42:5 ,10 44:2 44:16 46:5 ,9,11 47:21 ,22 48:11 ,12 49:13 ,22 52:14 54:16,20 55:19,21 56:1 ,1 ,2,5 62:5 ,17 63:1 72:5 84:12 85:4,5 ,9,10,14 86:15 87:10 98:11 99:18 100:3 ,4,14 101:1 ,1 ,9 105:13 105:20 111:6,9 112:17 115:12 116:2 117:11 125:3 129:20 133:21 ,22 134:3 137:13 ,22 138:1 139:1 140:16 141:3 ,20 142:1 ,13 143:8 ,10 149:2 151:12,14 152:8 152:10 164:10 168:16,18 ,21 184:16 185:2,14 185:18 ,21 190:4 192:7 ,17 193:15 193:22 194:2,13 194:22 195:1 ,6,13 195:22 196:22 197:8 ,10,14,17 200:21 201:2,21 202:16 203:18 207:2,4 210:16,22 211:21 212:3 ,10 220:8 225:22 226:19 239:10,15 240:3 ,10 243:11 243:16 244:4,5 246:6,8 248:9,13 248:15 ,17 263:7 263:10 267:1 ,6 273:9,10,13 274:7 277:4 279:22 282:21 283:9 284:7 ,18 285:19 287:14 288:2,18 289:4,17 291:1 ,3 291:15 ,18 293:1 **thinking** 83:17 86:14 106:3 134:11 190:8 200:19 **Third** 252:22 **thought** 16:13 ,21 19:21 40:10 52:18 125:2 201:11 286:20 **thoughts** 42:2 52:18 283:8 287:21 **thousand** 185:2 190:21 261:9,19 **thousands** 263:5 **three** 18:1 25:6 31:13 52:4 73:13 84:21 85:15 ,18 ,19 85:19 112:2 128:12 129:15 ,16 138:3 ,3 147:17 156:9 208:11 213:13 251:18 261:15 **throw** 244:19,19 273:13 **thrown** 96:13 **Thursday** 1:11 4:6 **tied** 167:20 **time** 5:13 7:3 ,8 11:17 12:22 13:19 16:15 39:18 44:7 44:12,13 72:3 74:12 80:3 85:16 86:10,13 106:18 116:21 123:6,10 123:11 ,18 124:4,4 124:5 153:22 154:3 ,11 157:9 176:1 ,8 190:14 192:22 193:12 195:3 ,6,17 201:1 202:9 205:10 223:4,10 228:20 230:17 236:7 238:3 ,18 242:1 ,3 242:7 ,12,14,21 243:1 ,5 248:14 277:7 280:13 283:2,15 288:20 289:1 291:2 **timeframe** 194:7 **times** 12:8 73:22 80:10 122:14 123:4 138:16 146:5 ,5 177:17 188:16 202:1 ,7 208:11 **tips** 52:14 **TLS3** 285:15 **today** 4:6,15 ,18 5:4 6:16 7:4 12:3 14:19 15:1 ,17

19:12,17 ,19 20:10 39:21 55:14 59:17 133:2 138:1 140:18 142:7 192:19 244:4 245:6 246:19 247:1 253:10,17 258:19 273:6 276:17 289:9 290:12 291:11 ,12 292:12 293:1 **today's** 11:4 13:13 **told** 290:21 **ton** 261:14 262:7 ,11 262:12 265:6 267:10,13 269:3 **tons** 261:9,10,13 ,15 261:18 262:6,7 263:4 **tool** 34:8 ,9 251:10 **top** 52:8 144:12 258:3 269:7 **top-performing** 112:18 **topic** 146:8 **topics** 252:11 **tore** 33:12 **torn** 32:1 35:6 **total** 60:14,16 130:12,18 136:9 136:15 144:11 147:8 175:4 179:3 179:4,6 257:15 ,17 265:7 267:9,11 ,19 268:8 270:7 **totally** 130:10 263:2 272:8 **totals** 267:22 **touch** 277:20 283:4 **touched** 288:2 **tough** 200:15 **tracking** 36:22 **traditional** 211:10 **transformer** 58:2 62:10 63:8 **transformers** 57:13 **transportation** 260:7 **traveling** 293:9 **travels** 159:21 **treat** 91:15 226:21 **treated** 112:20,22 **treating** 246:1 **treats** 91:13 **tree** 282:11The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 326 **tremendous** 276:11 **trend** 103:16 146:9 146:11 ,12 201:4 227:13 235:13 264:3 **trends** 79:17 95:11 182:12 200:5 221:6 227:14 243:4 263:1 ,12 271:1 **trial** 237:1 ,2 **trickle** 152:4 **tried** 217:13 **trillion** 261:17 **trip** 156:12 **trivial** 248:20 **trouble** 49:21 104:7 115:19 **troubling** 47:22 **true** 51:10 164:3 201:10 **trust** 279:11 **trusting** 282:16 **try** 4:22 5:2 7:10 27:3 41:10 47:18 54:21 ,22 55:16 72:3 ,9 97:10 114:15 115:6,14 198:17 217:3 229:13 250:18 251:2,6,17 ,19,22 252:6 284:15 288:6 291:21 **trying** 32:20 37:4 39:9,17 46:1 49:19 59:7 ,11 62:15 64:7 71:15 71:20 88:16 93:1 104:7 115:19 134:22 150:9 211:15 248:7 263:8 281:11 288:11 ,16,21 **TSC** 224:21 **TSD** 62:12 250:9 262:18 270:9 274:16 **TSL** 255:5 ,17 259:9 **TSL3** 246:18 247:6 247:11 255:10,20 286:2 **TSL5** 237:7 **TSLs** 244:11 **TSO** 238:8 **TSO1** 238:7 **tube** 234:10 **tubing** 89:13

**turn** 7:12,16 20:16 66:14,15 67:2 279:21 **turning** 7:4 **twice** 117:14 **two** 23:6 24:8 29:20 30:10 49:6,8 52:7 60:14 65:14 66:20 84:20 85:15 87:19 91:21 93:7 113:3 128:12 129:15 ,16 137:15 138:2,3 144:9 146:14 169:13 171:19 173:3 175:2,11 179:11 180:16 181:15 182:8 184:4,15 189:7 195:4 199:17 204:21 208:11 209:2 231:8 254:2 254:20 255:18 263:19,20 270:1 282:12 286:4 **two-edged** 280:2 **two-pipe** 176:17 **two-plate** 177:2 **two-stage** 74:22 87:20 88:8 126:5 **two-tenths** 249:2 **tying** 155:8 283:16 **type** 21:17 22:7 42:7 44:22 65:6 65:12 77:8 84:5 85:7 88:17 100:15 102:3 109:11 111:8 112:5 125:14 164:9 180:6 185:16 192:11 202:12 203:6 216:10 234:10 235:6,15 277:17 **types** 12:19 21:18 57:19 114:7 166:4 174:6 204:21 215:8 ,17 227:20 234:4 254:21 284:6 **typical** 29:4 32:18 62:22 63:5 ,6 115:11 119:6 **typically** 23:11 89:9 158:12 181:22 184:15 **U**

**U.S** 1:1 ,5 3:4 9:5 ,6 13:21 14:1 18:9 34:1 40:21 54:6 54:11 67:20 98:18 99:13 131:9 133:6 140:13 142:2 193:21 209:17 210:15 257:3 ,18 261:17 271:5 290:10 292:4 **UCMs** 127:4 **UK** 211:4,4,8 292:2 292:7 **ultimately** 30:15 ,16 282:15 **ultra** 206:22 207:2 **uncertainties** 275:1 275:4 **unconditioned** 149:8 ,9,19 152:3 155:7 ,13 178:4 **undermine** 281:11 **underscores** 48:13 **undersized** 45:7 **understand** 16:4 19:17 26:22 39:17 41:10 85:6 96:22 97:6 112:21 115:20 119:14 120:17 153:19 180:9,12 185:18 186:14 202:10 226:18 251:17 271:6 **understandable** 32:18 **understanding** 36:7 36:14 84:8 96:19 97:3 152:9,16 161:9 189:5 190:17 195:9 **understood** 110:6 219:7 **unfortunately** 17:13 **unit** 29:4,4 30:12 31:20,21 35:5 61:19 85:15 104:6 104:10 108:21 168:15 ,16 205:19 **United** 210:21 211:11 ,17 **units** 28:10 29:4 31:8 ,17 32:18 33:15 37:7 49:7 ,9 52:2 58:7 62:9 79:22,22 80:4

83:15 84:10,20,21 85:13 ,19 89:5 125:13 142:18 162:7 176:2 237:20,21 253:1 **unlined** 169:22 195:11 ,14,18 196:3 ,9 **unplug** 140:4 **unsafe** 278:11 **update** 86:11 260:11 285:3 **updated** 68:18 199:21 222:17 **upgraded** 272:20 273:6 **upgrading** 15:3 **upper** 169:4,5 254:16 255:19 **ups** 187:20 **upstream** 260:6,16 260:21 270:14,15 272:7 **upward** 201:4 **urban** 41:12 47:15 49:12 53:21 216:9 **urged** 194:1 **usage** 130:14,18 **use** 6:7 18:17 48:21 62:9 64:22 67:8 68:15 73:6,9,14 73:15 74:8 ,14 75:6 76:13 ,15 78:19 79:10 81:17 82:12 84:13 85:20 86:7 88:6 90:2 97:14 102:14,15 102:20 103:1 ,3 104:3 106:9,11 108:5 ,18 110:3 ,12 110:13 ,18 ,20 111:1 113:10 114:14,16 115:8 115:12 117:20 118:3 ,11 119:15 120:8 ,8,18 122:10 123:21 124:13 125:8 126:11 128:21 132:10,18 135:3 136:7 ,11 138:6 148:13 153:5 168:10 176:15 180:19 194:14 200:5 217:13 223:19 232:1 233:11

260:14 265:4 **useable** 151:18 **useful** 23:2 78:2,8 78:17 80:6,7 ,7 87:1 92:20 **users** 290:4 **uses** 48:21 67:16,18 67:20 75:13 107:3 108:10 119:7 130:5 210:7 253:14 **usually** 178:8 184:9 184:10 215:10 216:1 **utilities** 270:5 **utility** 25:3 ,7 ,16,17 26:2,4,13 ,15 55:22 150:17 270:2 274:3 **V valid**  46:6 **validate** 194:4 207:16 **validity** 176:21 **valuable** 180:14 216:5 **value** 58:20 80:21 80:22 81:5 ,5 ,11 81:11 83:4,5 84:14 90:21 103:6 104:16 129:8 ,9,14 140:1 148:5 ,7 231:3 233:17 244:20,22 249:3 ,7 251:15 265:2 266:16 267:10,12 267:13 ,17 268:7 269:2 **values** 81:14 83:7 95:10 102:17 ,21 110:16,17 125:20 126:1 ,3 ,7 128:16 129:15 148:6 149:21 187:7 ,7 ,9 188:3 ,3 205:6 224:16 265:4 **valve** 205:1 **valves** 140:9 180:12 **variability** 145:11 **varied** 33:4 112:15 **variety** 22:19 27:22 39:10 **various** 198:9 280:3 **vary** 61:14 69:15The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 327 81:8 223:18 **vast** 84:9 **vehicles** 278:3 **vent** 49:17 ,19 157:18 ,18 158:3 158:11 159:6,12 160:2,5 ,7 ,10 162:4,11 ,14 163:9 165:17 ,18 166:6,8 166:8 ,15 167:19 170:1 ,2,15 ,17 ,17 171:1 ,8,9,11 172:4 174:1 ,2,3 ,4 174:5 ,5 ,21 175:1 177:10,15 184:8 184:10 185:4 191:15 205:2,3 286:6 **vented** 50:3 131:12 131:15 159:22 163:14 174:8 **venting** 14:17 41:11 41:13 ,15 48:16 50:5 52:5 53:1 147:21 157:11 ,15 157:19 158:2,8,8 159:20 160:1 162:11 ,16 163:1 ,5 163:12,13 ,17 165:22 166:3 ,21 167:1 ,5 170:5 ,20 171:17 172:3 ,13 173:12 174:6,7 ,13 174:14 175:4,14 175:17 177:4 184:3 ,5 191:17 193:22 228:2 252:15 253:12 291:5 **vents** 166:12 167:18 169:7 174:22 **verify** 252:6 **version** 271:18 ,20 271:21 **versus** 63:19 87:11 88:2 93:13 120:6 121:19 140:15 147:2 155:10 212:22 222:11 237:10 242:11 261:22 262:11 277:19 **vertical** 158:11 ,13 158:21 159:12 163:12,13 ,17 **vertically** 160:1 252:18

**viable** 283:14 **vibrate** 7:12 **Vic** 82:15 **Victor** 2:21 9:12 59:18 64:19 68:12 73:3 ,4 81:15 83:2 84:4,8 85:21 92:8 96:13 104:2 114:13 117:11 124:17 130:3 131:17 132:21 136:6 137:18 144:1 ,3 159:15 168:9 172:10 176:11 177:22 183:14 187:4 191:3 195:10 199:21 203:14,20 208:5 216:19 230:1 238:4 244:3 246:10 **Victor's** 244:18 **view** 120:9 154:15 264:10 **viewpoint** 136:19 **vintage** 77:8 162:20 **virtual** 61:11 **virtually** 11:3 192:1 192:10 **visual** 5:13 ,15 84:19 **volume** 34:5 ,7 **volumes** 67:5 **vortex** 200:16 **VPM** 25:9 **W wait**  38:21 39:5 **waiting** 293:19 **walk** 19:12 **wall** 89:15 159:6,11 160:3 ,7 ,15 ,15 166:4 279:19 **wall-hung** 160:12 **walls** 49:17 83:15 **want** 6:19,20 10:20 36:6 44:3 ,10 46:20 47:3 48:12 55:8 91:8 ,16 115:19 117:11 119:22 123:18 154:17 166:16 177:7 188:17 190:7 ,12 193:20 198:22 199:2 203:4 204:1 220:13 223:19

240:6,7 ,8 243:17 244:9 245:17 247:1 276:16 277:20 278:7 ,9,13 279:10 280:20 281:5 282:12 283:4 289:8 **wanted** 12:17 54:5 86:20 106:3 109:14,18 116:10 160:10 187:6 234:1 276:14 281:13 282:5 289:13 **wanting** 281:19 **wants** 109:17 169:1 281:21 ,22 282:3 **warm** 139:18 ,21 **warranties** 212:2 **warranty** 212:11 **washer** 233:15 240:7 **washers** 239:11 ,12 **Washington** 1:8 4:7 **wasn't** 13:15 60:11 64:9 113:2 146:11 194:6 258:11 **water** 12:6,11 14:15 18:13 ,14,14,16,18 22:14,16,17 23:2 23:17 32:6 35:1 ,9 36:21 45:9 50:13 53:20 65:20 70:9 71:5 73:15 ,16 74:6,8,12,20,20 75:20,22,22,22 77:1 78:9 79:6,6 82:2,3 88:18 89:2 89:4,4,10,17 ,20 90:4,6 94:3 ,4,17 95:16,18 ,21 96:2 96:6 97:15 98:19 99:4,9,11 104:17 106:7 ,10,11 ,12,16 106:17 ,18 ,19 107:1 ,3 ,4,7 ,8,11 107:13 ,15 ,20,22 108:3 ,3 ,4,10,16 108:18 ,22 109:2,8 109:14,19 110:12 110:13 ,19,20 111:7 ,9,19 112:4 112:14 113:10 114:6,8,13 ,19,22 115:8 ,12,21 116:11 ,17 ,18 ,21

117:2,5 ,15 ,21 118:7 ,9 120:4,5 122:3 ,15 126:9 132:5 135:7 ,12,20 136:11 ,17 137:7 137:17 ,21 138:1 138:13 139:7 141:6,20 156:15 157:6 158:2 161:8 161:13 163:5 ,5 ,14 163:15 ,18 166:20 166:21 170:7 ,13 172:11 ,14,14,17 172:18 173:3 ,12 173:13 ,17 ,19 174:8 ,14,15 175:5 175:13 178:21 180:19 183:22 184:9,12 185:3 ,10 185:22 198:10 218:8 ,9 220:22 221:1 224:20 232:12 235:8 ,11 236:4,9 237:4 240:20 241:12,14 241:15 246:4 277:8 ,11 283:10 291:3 **watt** 61:12 **wattage** 58:19 125:22 127:10 130:14,18 134:17 220:17 **wattages** 128:18 **watts** 58:11 ,21 59:3 60:20,21 61:14 63:19,19,20 125:14 126:12,15 127:19,21 128:2,4 128:8 ,21 130:12 134:13 ,20 247:10 247:11 261:16 **way** 5:16 16:22 65:13 112:17 134:21 153:22 156:3 159:8 160:21 180:20 186:14 193:15 207:4 215:6 219:6 219:7 226:16 266:19 284:13 **ways** 32:21 91:13 **we'll** 4:18 6:9,10,12 7:22 8:7 11:17 28:12 47:2 54:2 68:5 70:4 72:19

73:20 74:4 79:4 82:6,11 83:10,20 90:9 93:18 101:18 102:8 107:11 115:6,14 117:21 122:6 126:13 127:11 132:8 137:22 143:16 144:14,20 145:1 145:13 ,18 146:3 147:10,12,22 148:9 153:10,21 154:19 157:11 ,20 161:17 165:3 ,11 167:15 174:15 182:13 199:17 ,18 204:11 216:17 218:10 229:8 230:19 232:18 237:2 264:18 276:8 288:6 291:21 293:15 **we're** 4:10,20,20 5:8 5:14 7:5 ,18 ,20 9:4 11:5 ,21 12:12 13:8 14:8 15:20 17:19,21 20:11 ,15 33:16,17 41:1 ,9 41:16 49:9,11 ,22 50:6,22 53:22 56:7 59:21 68:17 71:11 ,11 ,14,19,19 71:20 72:13 ,18 73:2,5 ,8 74:18 87:12 91:9 101:18 103:3 111:1 135:9 137:12,16 138:7 142:19 143:14,14 143:21 144:3 146:1 152:21 154:20 158:1 161:22 164:12 169:21 ,22 170:19 174:10 179:10 180:6 184:5 185:16 187:7 ,19 188:1 ,13 191:8 193:13 ,15 194:20 197:16,21 199:19 205:8 ,9 218:5 219:10 229:19,20 230:1 ,2 243:22 246:17 247:19 250:14,15 259:12 261:16 263:8 ,18The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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**159** 171:17 **16** 114:21 **160** 89:6 **1600** 175:4 186:3 ,5 186:7 187:3 ,11 **17** 50:12 115:13 248:1 250:9 **18** 70:7 115:13 117:6 178:17 **180** 51:3 89:9 115:1 185:6 191:1 **19.6** 134:3 **19.7** 134:4 **1950** 48:22 49:3 ,4 50:7 53:7 **1950s** 100:14 **1962** 232:20 **1967** 201:22 **1970** 76:2,2,4 232:21 **1975** 18:2 **1980** 236:7 **1980s/early** 205:6 **1987** 18:3 **1990** 96:5 ,7 100:10 100:11 233:16 **1990s** 162:6 205:6 207:12 **1993** 235:9 **1995** 162:10 164:2 164:13 ,17 ,21 165:5 ,6,6 189:2,9 189:10,11 ,13 ,20 196:2,2,16,20 213:12 **2 2**  14:11 37:16 48:5 58:11 ,20 70:8 90:3 94:20 112:5 113:11 119:9 134:13 ,20 162:3 165:22 168:14 184:11 200:21 214:7 215:16 252:3 255:22 290:20 **2-inch** 168:11 ,18 **2,700** 157:6 **2.1** 255:22 **2.107** 71:7 **2.2** 170:17 **2.4** 90:19 93:4,9 **20** 70:6 81:6 84:1 89:20 102:5 117:6The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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200:6 201:4 203:18 206:14,21 218:4,7 221:19 222:8 ,15 228:11 230:8 262:5 ,9 **2025** 275:1 **2026** 237:14 **2030** 238:5 **2040** 200:6 **2048** 147:1 **2049** 230:8 275:11 275:13 **20585** 1:8 **21** 262:7 **2100** 275:5 **2103** 240:21 **22** 163:6 **22.25** 132:6 **23** 70:9 103:3 **236** 130:15 **238** 171:18 **24** 103:3 **25** 81:6 91:3 126:12 126:17 127:19,21 128:2,4 136:1 ,21 140:5 209:12 210:20,22 248:1 292:7 **25-year** 233:4 292:6 **250,000** 33:20 **2500** 119:7 **26.5** 236:10 **27** 149:18 153:4,7 **27.9** 261:18 **27.94** 261:12 262:6 **27th** 16:12 **28** 115:5 **29** 42:6 268:2 **3 3**  37:16 60:21 94:12 166:1 168:14 170:16 184:11 208:18 214:8 252:5 267:16,21 **3-inch** 168:20 **3.27** 71:6 **3.38** 255:12 **3.4** 233:17 **3.50** 269:1 **3.8** 261:17 **3:00** 229:13 **3:10** 229:16 **30** 1:11 4:6 112:16 149:20 150:10 192:9 212:22

221:18 245:12 249:7 261:15 ,22 271:22 275:16 293:12 **30-year** 262:10 **300** 171:10 **300,000** 32:16 **30th** 275:18 ,20 **32** 163:12 218:5 **33** 36:5 **35** 90:11 149:18 153:9 268:3 **36** 257:17 ,22 **36,000** 120:7 **37** 267:15 268:4 **39** 54:4 **3923** 240:22 **4 4**  103:20 112:5 113:11 138:15 186:11 200:16,20 218:7 **4-2** 141:11 **4-20** 229:3 **4-9** 141:11 **4-inch** 168:21 169:6 **4.3** 191:14 192:1 ,9 **4.5** 216:22 **4:41** 294:4 **40** 51:16 104:10 110:19 111:16 116:1 147:2 187:3 **40.5** 267:10,13 **400** 208:18 **42** 190:14 **446** 175:14 **45** 104:19 **46** 218:7 278:20 **5 5**  49:6 63:19 103:16 103:17 ,20 106:4 107:21 187:10 189:16 200:17 237:8 241:2,16,18 **5.2** 186:17 **5.3** 243:11 **5.7** 170:18 191:9 192:1 **50** 48:22 49:1 ,7 80:20 104:19,19 106:17 115:4 119:2,3 ,4,17 121:12 136:8 176:7 177:14

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**8** 58:21 149:19 153:7 166:9 169:19 183:10 200:8 218:7 231:16 261:16 262:4 **8.6** 136:16 **80** 50:16 103:19 142:20 143:3 193:12 240:22 263:14,15 **81** 23:15 94:10 125:14 **8100** 134:13 **82** 14:22 23:22 37:12 40:22 51:3 54:12,14 55:21 77:1 94:9 103:19 105:11 132:5 163:5 170:16 171:1 ,15 175:4 185:6 186:6 190:15 191:13 ,20 193:13 197:15 246:19 277:19 **82/83** 283:18 **83** 15:1 23:15 51:3 54:12,14 163:11 282:19 291:7 **84** 23:19 24:1 37:12 50:18 51:4,6,6,8 52:13 54:13 55:18 141:4 184:18 ,21 185:6,7 186:6 188:7 ,21 193:9 240:18 282:20 **84.1** 198:11 **840** 183:22 184:9 **846** 185:3 **85** 14:15 ,17 ,21 41:2 41:6,19 44:17 47:10 48:8 49:20 50:1 ,10,15 ,17 51:4 52:2 54:13 54:13 ,15 55:19 132:6 141:4,15 ,17 141:22 163:10 167:10 171:17 184:21 185:6,8 190:12,12,13 ,16 190:20 191:20 192:9,21 193:5 ,7 195:12,21 246:18 246:21 276:22 277:19 278:1 ,11The Residential Standards Boilers Meeting April 30, 2015

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# TRANSCRIPTION CERTIFICATE



# As a professional transcriber, I certify that the attached document(s} are, to the best of my abilities, an accurate transcription of audio recordings provided to the company, given the quality of the provided audio recording(s}, and that I have no financial or other interest in the proceedings to which they pertain.

TRANSCRIBER 331