### JEPARTMEN TO F '•RAM3P0RTATIQ N UNITE D STATE S O FAMERIC A
. lOCKc TOPERATION

S
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### DEPARTMEN T O F TRANSPORTATIO N OFFIC E O F HEARING S

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### PRE-HEARIN GCONFERENC E 

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I NTH E MATTE RO F COLGANAIR , INC . FA ADocke t N o CP09EA001 8 DM S Docke t N o FAA-2009-058 2

Wednesday , Jul y13 , 201 1 Th e above-entitle dmatte r cam e o nfo r hearing , pursuan t t o notice , vi a teleconferenc e a t 3:0 0 p.m . Easter nDayligh t Time . BEFORE : TH E HONORABL E RONNI E A . YODE R

Chie f Administrativ e La wJudg e



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## HEARfN G DOCKE T

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. 20005-370 1 www.nealrgross.co mAPPEARANCES : O nBehal f o f th e Complainant : CHRISTIA NL . LEWERENZ , ESQ . of : FA AOffic e o f th e Regiona l Counsel ,

AEA- 7 1 Aviatio nPlaz a Jamaica , N Y1143 4 (718 ) 553-327 3 O nBehal f o f th e Respondent : MAR KA . DOMBROFF , ESQ . o f : Dombrof f Gilmor e Jaque s & Frenc hP. C 1 6 7 6 Internationa l Driv e Penthous e McLean , V A2210 2 (703 ) 336-870 0 BRIA NT . HUNT , ESQ . of : Pinnacl e Airline s Corp . 168 9 Nonconna hBoulevar d Memphis , Tennesse e 3813 2 (901 ) 348-410 0



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### PROCEEDING S 2:5 9 p.m . JUDG E YODER : Thi s i s a 4 Prehearin g Telephon e Conferenc e i nth e matte r 5 o f Colga nAir , Inc. , FA ADocke t No . CP09EA0018 .

An do nth e phon e w e hav e fo r th e Complainant , Christia nLewerenz . An dfo r th e 9 Respondent , Mar k A . Dombrof f an dBria nHunt . 1 0 W e als o hav e a Cour t Reporte r wh o 1 1 wil l transcrib e th e proceeding . Acop yo f th e 1 2 transcrip t automaticall ygoe s t o th e Judg e an d 1 3 t o th e Complian t counse l becaus e th e FA Apay s 1 4 fo r it . 1 5 Mr . Dombroff , i f yo u nee da cop y 1 6 o f th e transcript , you'l l nee dt o rais e tha t 1 7 wit hth e Cour t Reporter . Okay ? 1 8 MR . DOMBROFF : W e wil l d o so , 1 9 Judge . Than k you . 2 0 JUDG E YODER : Okay . Certainly . 2 1 No wI hav e belatedl yreceive dsom e 2 2 o f th e document s tha t yo u folk s exchanged . I



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9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 wasn' t sur e wha t wa s unclea r abou t myOrder .

Th e Orde r state dtha t w e shoul dreceiv e th e document s byJun e 2 8th . No t tha t the yshoul d b e sen t byJun e 28th , bu t tha t w e shoul d receiv e the mb yJun e 28th . I don' t thin k anybod ydi dthat .

W e don' t sen dthing s t o m e by regula r mai l o r i t take s tw o week s t o ge t the m here . S o i f you'r e goin g t o mai l things , the y nee dt o g o bya nexpres s deliver yservice . An dou r date s ar e alway s receiv e dates .

An dthi s wa s no t th e firs t tim e w e ha dse t a dat e fo r a receip t o f thes e documents . I nfact , ther e hav e bee nfou r previou s date s fo r receip t o f thes e document s bac k i n2010 , an dw e stil l didn' t receiv e them . S o a wor dt o th e wis e shoul db e sufficient . I hop e i t wil l b e an dw e won' t se e a repea t o f this .

No ww e di di nth e mos t recen t documen t receiv e answer s t o th e Complainant' s

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9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 interrogatories . I gathe r ther e wer e n o

answer s t o Respondent' s interrogatories , i s tha t correct ?

Judge . MR . DOMBROFF : That' s correct ,

Thi s i s Mar k Dombroff . JUDG E YODER : Yes . An dd o I understan dtha t tha t wa s becaus e ther e wa s a n agreemen t ther e shouldn' t b e any ?

Judge . MR . DOMBROFF : That' s correct ,

JUDG EYODER : Okay . Fin^
. 

### No wI di dfindsom e - - i non e submissio nan dno t i nth e other , an dI wan t t o mak e sur e everybody' s o nth e sam e pag e wit h respec t t o thes e things . S o le t m e jus t loo k her e quickly .

I ha don e documen t tha t wa s i n Respondent' s an dno t i nth e Complainant' s submission . An dtha t woul db e Repor t No . 2 008EA 2 7005 4 Investigativ e Report . I' msur e yo u hav e that , Mr . Lewerenz?

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . LEWERENZ : Yes . JUDG E YODER : An di t wasn' t i nth e document s yo u sen t me .

MR . LEWERENZ : Wha t I sen t yo u wa s a cop yo f th e Enforcemen t Investigativ e Report , 2008EA2700054 .

JUDG E YODER : I mea nI understand . Bu t th e cove r documen t apparentl ywa s no t i n th e document s tha t w e got .

MR . LEWERENZ : Oh , okay . JUDG E YODER : Ther e wa s apparentl y a singl e sheet .

MR . LEWERENZ : Oh . JUDG E YODER : RISFO2150-1 . MR . LEWERENZ : Okay . understand . Yes .

JUDG E YODER : Al l right . Bu t the n ther e ar e a numbe r o f document s tha t wer e i n wha t yo u sen t an dno t i nwha t th e Complainan t sent . Di dyo u sendthe mal l th e thing s yo u sen t t o m e whe nyo u sen t the mt o me ?

MR . LEWERENZ : I - - le t m e see . I

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9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 ha dsen t a copy . I don' t know . I di dno t hav e

a cop ysen t o f wha t w e sen t t o you , whic hwa s th e EI Ran dth e an dth e Order .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . The nle t m e jus t g o downth e lis t her e becaus e there' s som e thing s her e tha t wer e no t i nwha t Responden t sent .

An dfirstly , there' s th e Summar y o f 1 4 CF RViolations . I' msur e tha t Responden t ha s o r i s awar e o f tha t document .

An dspea k up i f yo u hav e a proble m wit hanythin g o f this , Mr . Dombroff .

MR . DOMBROFF : We'r e lookin g righ t now . Judge , t o se e i f w e go t a document . An d obviousl ywe'r e awar e - -

JUDG E YODER : Yes . MR . DOMBROFF : - - bu t we'v e go t a documen t tha t i s i nanywa ycaptione dthat .

JUDG E YODER : I f yo u don' t hav e anyo f these , the nMr . Leweren z wil l sen dthe m t o yo u a s soo na s w e ge t of f th e line.

MR . DOMBROFF : Absolutely , Judge .

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### 1 An dmayb e th e bes t thin g t o d o i s t o th e

2 exten t tha t yo u hav e a lis t o f document s tha t 3 wer e i non e submissio nbu t no t th e other , i f 4 yo u coul djus t stat e thos e fo r us . An dthe n 5 rathe r the ntak e you r tim e righ t now , Mr . 6 Leweren z an dI ca ntal k afte r thi s cal l an dw e 7 ca nconfir m a s t o whethe r w e hav e i t o r no t i n 8 ou r fil e alreadyan dthe nge t i t i f w e don't . 9 JUDG E YODER : That' s fine . I hav e 1 0 nin e o f these , an dtha t wa s th e firs t on e I 1 1 jus t mentioned . 1 2 MR . DOMBROFF : Okay . 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Th e secon di s 1 4 Factor s Affectin g Sanction . 1 5 Th e thir di s title dOthe r 1 6 Informatio nRelatin g t o Reliabilit yo f 1 7 Evidence , Conflictin g Evidence , Opinion s an d 1 8 Summarize dConclusio nan dRecommendation . 1 9 Th e nex t on ei s a Memorandum , 2 0 date dJun e 12 , 2008 , Manage r o f th e Technica l 2 1 Branc hfro m th e Manage r o f th e Washingto n 2 2 FSBO .

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### MR . DOMBROFF : Yes . JUDG E YODER : An di t concern s a n Aviatio nSafet yHotlin e Complain t forwarde dt o thei r offic e o nMa y16 , 2008 . Okay ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Right . JUDG E YODER : Th e nex t on e i s a charg e shee t fro mAT& T indicatin g th e call s mad e byMr . Coats . It' s style dExhibi t 11 , bu t i t doe s no t hav e th e telephon e number s redacte do nit . Th e one . yo u sen t u s did .

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes . I' mlookin g a t th e tha t yo u sen t me .

JUDG E YODER : Th e nex t on e i s a n exchang e o f email s fro mCaptai nWoo dt o Joh n Leshok , date dJun e 5 , 2008 . An dLeshok' s reply . That' s style dExhibi t 14 .

An dExhibi t 1 5 i s similarl yfro m Mr . Wood s t o Joh nLeshok .

MR . DOMBROFF : I know . Judge . I don' t mea nt o interrup t you . Mar k Domdrof f speaking . JUDG E YODER : Yes .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . DOMBROFF : I' mlooking , an d

fo r exampl e I don' t hav e - - w e hav e th e fil e her e o r th e Investigativ e Repor t an di t goe s -

- ou r cop yo f i t goe s fro mExhibi t 1 3 t o Exhibi t 17 . S o that' s - -

JUDG E YODER : Okay . Fourteen , 15 , 16 . MR . DOMBROFF : Right .

JUDG E YODER : An d1 6 is , again , a
recor do f telephon e cal l attempts .

MR . DOMBROFF : Al l righ t an dlas t

on e i s Exhibi t 22 , whic hi s a nAirma n Informatio nReported . An dit' s - - i t say s "Pag e 1 o f 1 " o neac ho f tw o pages . An dth e firs t on e i s Airma nInformatio nReported , th e
secon don e i s Certificat e Details .

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes . Again , I' m looking . I hav e Exhibi t 2 2 bu t I hav e Pag e 1

o f 1 bu t I onl yhav e a singl e pag e unde r tha t exhibit . So , I thin k w e ca nwor k thi s ou t wit hMr . Lewerenz .

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9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Pleas e do . I jus t

wante dt o mak e sur e w e wer e al l o nth e sam e page . MR . DOMBROFF : Than k you . Judge .

JUDG E YODER : Yes . W e couldn' t d o thi s withou t ou r wonderfu l inter nassistant s whic hw e ge t grati s becaus e w e can' t hir e enoug hattorney s t o d o thi s thing .

I nan yevent , on e o f th e document s tha t wa s sen t t o m e wa s th e cas e o f Sturgel l

vs . Angstadt . Tha t wa s sen t t o m e b y Complainant' s counsel , I guess . An dI' msur e you'r e awar e o f that , Mr . Dombroff ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir . I am . JUDG E YODER : An dn o on e mad e m e
awar e o f i t unti l I go t thi s cop yo f th e decision . I' mno t sur e wh ytha t is .

Yo u o f cours e understand , tha t tha t cas e essentiall yrelate s t o th e sam e fact s an dcircumstance s a t issu e here , i s tha t right ?

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9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . DOMBROFF : Tha t i s essentiall y

correct , sir . Bu t I thin k there' s somethin g o f

a twis t o nit .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . MR . DOMBROFF : Mr . Angstadt , Jare d Angstadt , wa s th e captai no f th e aircraf t tha t

wa s involved . Mr . Coats , wh o yo u reference d fro m som e o f thes e documents , wa s th e firs t officer . JUDG E YODER : Okay .

MR . DOMBROFF : Thi s i s sor t o f a n
unusua l cas e i ncertainl ym yexperienc e wit h representin g airline s i ntha t th e firs t office r ha dbee nsummone dt o th e compan y unrelate dt o thi s even t i nconnectio nwit h unrelate dperformanc e issue s b yhim . I t wa s subsequen t t o tha t tha t h e advise dth e compan y
o f allege dconduc t b yth e captain , Mr . Angstadt , regardin g th e weigh t balanc e an dth e manifest . JUDG E YODER : Well , a s I gather , i t wa s no t fo r wan t o f tryin g tha t h e didn' t

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9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 ge t throug ht o th e company . MR . DOMBROFF : Apparentl ythe ydi d
no t connect , that' s correct , Judge . But-
-

JUDG E YODER : Bu t whe nyo u sa y "the ydi dno t connect, " h e calle dyou r hea d pilo t an ddidn' t ge t a respons e thre e times , i s tha t wha t th e recor dshows ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I believ e that' s correct . I believ e that' s correct .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . MR . DOMBROFF : An dwhe nthe ydi d hoo k up , h e gav e hi s informatio nt o th e company . Th e compan ycalle di nCaptai n Angstadt , interviewe dCaptai nAngstad t wh o ha d

n o histor yo f issues , problems , performanc e o r otherwis e wit hth e company . Th e company interviewe dhim . Th e compan yreviewe dth e paperwork . An dafte r weighin g th e informatio n the yhad , the yconclude dtha t th e Firs t Office r Coats , wh o ha dperformanc e issue s an d problems , wa s no t credibl e an dno t t o b e believe dsinc e th e paperwor k di dno t - -

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9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 JUDG E YODER : You'r e introducin g

a nawfu l lo t o f statements , Mr . Dombrof f tha t aren' t i nanyo f th e document s I've seen .

MR . DOMBROFF : I understand . Judge . An dth e reaso nI ' mraisin g i t i s becaus e i t impact s th e decision , th e Angstad t decisio n- - JUDG E YODER : How ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Well , i nth e sens e tha t ther e wa s a determinatio nmad e subsequen t t o th e FA

Agettin g involve dbywa yo f it s investigatio ntha t Captai nAngstad t wa s lyin g t o th e company . I t wa s base dupo nth e determinatio ntha t Captai nAngstad t wa s lyin g t o th e compan ywhe nth e companyinvestigate d thi s matter . Tha t th e compan yterminate d Captai nAngstadt' s employmen t - -

JUDG E YODER : Wher e i s th e repor t o f tha t Captai nAngstad t mad e t o th e company ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I thin k there' s a - -I'l l hav e t o g o back , Judge . I t wouldn' t b e par t o f thi s fil e an ddetermin e wha t i s i nth e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Angstad t - - i nCaptai nAngstad t o r forme r

Captai nAngstadt' s fil e - -

JUDG E YODER : Wh ywoul di t no t b e par t o f thi s file ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Well , becaus e I thin k thi s fil e - - well , I don' t kno wth e
answe r t o that , Judge . I don't .

JUDG E YODER : Oh . MR . DOMBROFF : An dI'l l hav e to- - JUDG E YODER : Wh o i s i ncharg e
ove r there , Mr . Dombroff ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I thin k that' s a goo dquestion , Judge . An dI thin k I'l l onl y
as k mysel f that .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . MR . DOMBROFF : Bu t I thin k a s soo n
a s th e compan yconclude dafte r th e FA Ago t involve dwit hit s badge , s o t o speak , tha t Captai nAngstad t wa s lying , th e compan y terminate dhim , th e FA Arevoke dhi s certificate . An dtha t th e Order , th e decisio n tha t yo u reference dwhic hbring s m e ful l

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9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 

### circle , i s wha t resulted . An di t wa s

subsequen t t o tha t tha t th e Lette r o f Investigatio nan dth e propose dcivi l penalt y an dth e civi l penalt ywa s presente dt o Colga n Air . So , yo u kno wth e situatio nher e a s I sai da t th e outset , an dI realiz e tha t I' m introducin g fact s int o thi s discussio ntha t
ar e no t withi nth e recor dbefor e yo u presently , bu t certainl yar e goin g t o b e par t o f th e recor da s thi s cas e goe s forward .

JUDG E YODER : Bu t I haven' t hear d anythin g ye t t o tel l m e wha t i s differen t abou t thi s fro mwha t wa s th e fac t a t th e tim e o f th e - - MR . DOMBROFF : Well , I thin k - - 1 don' t thin k it' s s o muc hdifferen t i nterm s o f whethe r o r no t th e aircraf t wa s overweigh t an d whethe r o r no t th e captai nlie dabou t i t an d falsifie dth e paperwork .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . S o you'r e prepare dt o stipulat e th e fact s a^s toixn di n

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### th e previou s case ? MR . DOMBROFF : Excus e me , Judge ? JUDG E YODER : You'r e prepare dt o stipulat e th e fact s a s foun di nth e previou s case ? MR . DOMBROFF : I' dlik e t o g o ove r th e languag e tha t present s thos e fact s wit h
some , yo u kno wey e toward s whethe r I stipulat e t o al l th e language . Bu t certainl yth e aircraf t wa s overweigh t an dth e paperwor k \^a. s incorrect . JUDG E YODER : Okay . Well , tha t get s m e a littl e ahea do f wher e I intende dt o be . Bu t ca nyo u tel l m e i nwha t respec t i t
wa s incorrect ?

•MR . DOMBROFF : Well , th e captai n fraudulentl yrecorde dth e weight s an dthe n lie dt o th e compan yabou t it . Ther e wa s a n additiona l passenger , a deadheadin g U.S . Airway s captai nonboar dth e aircraf t an dth e captai nlie dt o th e compan yabou t tha t an d the nlie dabou t th e paperwork .



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9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Al l right . Okay .

S o hel p m e understan dthe nwha t you r defensiv e postur e i s here . Tha t yo u aren' t responsibl e fo r th e actio no f you r captain ?

MR . DOMBROFF . Well , I thin k th e answe r i s a s a genera l manager , yes , we ' r e responsibl e fo r th e actio no f ou r captai nwhe n they'r e actin g withi nth e scop e o f thei r employment . JUDG E YODER : I mean , the yar e preparin g a manifest?

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , absolutely , whe nthe yprepar e a manifes t an di f the ydon ' t d o i t properl yo r the y- - yo u kno wth e procedur e i s fault ybu t the yfollo wth e procedur e o r w e don' t giv e the madequat e training ; yes , we'r e responsible . Bu t I thin k
ou r positio nher e broadl yspeakin g i s tha t whe nth e captai nwhe nw e diligently , yo u kno w pursu e th e investigatio nan dth e captai nlie s t o u s an dh e ha s falsifie dth e paperwor k t o cove r u p tha t lie , he' s actin g s o fa r ou t o f

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9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 th e scop e o f anyemploymen t tha t we ' r e no t

responsibl e a t tha t point . W e didn' t hav e failur e t o trai n- -

JUDG E YODER : Yo u go t som e preceden t fo r that , Mr . Dombroff ?

MR . DOMBROFF : And , Judg e - - JUDG E YODER : Yo u go t som e preceden t fo r that ?

thin k - - MR . DOMBROFF : W e will , yes . I

JUDG E YODER : I don' t mea nwill . I mea nd o you ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Th e answe r i s a s I si t her e now . Judge , no . Bu t - -

JUDG E YODER : Bu t yo u file da lo t o f paper s her e whic happarentl yar e base do n tha t assumption , i s tha t right ?

MR . DOMBROFF : That' s correct . An dw e - - JUDG E YODER : I' mno t awar e o f any basi s fo r suc ha nassumption ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir , w e are .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Okay . MR . DOMBROFF : An dit' s tru e i n th e contex t o f civi l liabilit ygenerally , an d I ' m no t talkin g abou t FA Atype s o f civi l liability , civi l penalties . Bu t I' mtalkin g abou t whethe r o r no t a nemploye r i s responsibl e i nth e contex t o f civi l liabilit y whe nhi s o r he r o r it s employe e step s s o fa r outsid e th e scop e o f thei r employmen t tha t it' s no t foreseeable , that' s i t o f n o benefi t t o th e company . Thi s wa s no t a revenu e passenger . H e lie dt o th e compan y- -

JUDG E YODER : Well , wa s i t onl y th e j um p sea t tha t pu t yo u ove r th e weigh t limit ? MR . DOMBROFF : H e liste dadult s a s childre na s well .

JUDG E YODER : Well , the nthos e peopl e wer e revenu e passengers .

MR . DOMBROFF : The ywere , an dh e jus t lie dt o us .

JUDG E YODER : Right .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . DOMBROFF : An di t jus t - - JUDG E YODER : Hav e yo u eve r know n
a nemploye e t o li e t o a nemploye r before ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I nthi s particula r typ e o f situation . Judge , no . I hav e no t ha d

a situatio nwher e a compan yconduct s a n investigatio no f - - yo u kno wa nallege d violatio no f it s procedure s i nth e regulatio n
an dth e compan y- - an dth e employe e ultimatel y i t turn s ou t no t onl ylie dt o th e investigator , bu t falsifie dth e paperwork .

JUDG E YODER : D o yo u hav e a cop y
o f th e repor t tha t yo u folk s di da s a resul t

o f you r interna l investigation ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I d o no t hav e i t i n fron t o f me , Judge , no .

JUDG E YODER : Yo u d o hav e suc ha report ? MR . DOMBROFF : I wil l hav e t o g o bac k int o tha t fil e an ddetermin e i nwha t for m i t exists . Judge .

JUDG E YODER : Becaus e tha t need s

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### 2 2

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 t o b e provide dt o - - MR . DOMBROFF : Absolutely , I agre e entirely . Bu t i f - -

JUDG E YODER : I' mtryin g t o figur e ou t wha t thi s cas e i s goin g t o b e about , Mr . Dombroff . MR . DOMBROFF : Judge . Yo u kno w- - Well , I agree .

JUDG E YODER : Le t m e finish . On e o f th e rule s her e i s whe nI' mtalking , everybod yels e shut s up . That ' s jus t fo r convenienc e purposes . Becaus e th e reporte r ca nonl ytak e on e dow na t a time .

So , we'v e ha da lo t o f filing s her e purportin g t o conten dtha t a lo t o f thes e thing s didn' t happe ntha t wer e alleged . No w you'r e basicall ytellin g m e nol o contender e o n th e factua l allegation s an dyo u go t som e kin d
o f lega l defense , i s tha t right ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I thin k that' s fair . Judge . I thin k - -

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 JUDG E YODER : Well , tha t ma yb e a

motion .

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . DOMBROFF : I don' t disagree ,

Judge . JUDG E YODER : Well , w e ma yno t b e

- - well , i t depend s o nwha t w e tur nu p i nth e
cours e o f thi s an dwha t yo u propos e t o contend . Because , frankly , I ' mconcerne dabou t

som e o f th e submission s tha t I hav e seen . An d whethe r w e g o forwar do ntha t kin do f factua l basi s o r not , I wan t th e entir e recor do f th e Sturgel l cas e file dwit hme .

MR . DOMBROFF : Absolutely , Judge . JUDG E YODER : An dI don' t kno wwh y i t hasn' t bee ndon e befor e now .

MR . DOMBROFF : Wel l - - JUDG E YODER : Di dsomeon e assum e tha t I wasn' t goin g t o thin k i t wa s relevant ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Mar k Dombroff . Judge . Colga nwa s no t a part yt o th e Sturgel l case .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Di dyo u represen t

th e captain , Angstadt ?

MR . DOMBROFF : No , sir . Th e compan y- - neithe r th e compan yno r an yo f it s
counse l represente dth e captain . Th e onl y rol e tha t th e compan yplaye di s that , I thin k

on e o r mor e witnesse s - - I thin k i t wa s on e witnes s wa s subpoenae dt o testify . Bu t Captai n Angstad t ha dprivat e counsel .

JUDG E YODER : You r witnesse s wer e represente db yyou r counsel ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I d o no t believ e tha t an ycounse l accompanie dth e witnes s t o th e hearing .

JUDG E YODER : Yes . MR . DOMBROFF : An dI believ e th e witnes s - - I'l l hav e t o g o bac k an dchec k this , becaus e w e d o no t hav e th e recor d Angstad t proceedin g - -

JUDG E YODER : Bu t I ' m sur e Mr . Leweren z ha s it .

Di dyo u represen t - -

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### 2 5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . LEWERENZ : Yes , I represente d

th e Agenc yi ntha t action . An d- -

JUDG E YODER : That' s wha t lea dm e t o conclude , yo u kno wjus t offhandedly , tha t yo u migh t hav e th e record .

MR . LEWERENZ : I d o hav e th e recor do f th e case . An di f yo u - -

JUDG E YODER : I' mno t sur e whyI don't . MR . LEWERENZ : Well , bu t th e onl y thin g I coul drecal l fro mmynote s tha t i nth e confine s o f thi s civi l penalt ycas e tha t w e exchanged , an dI didn' t - - th e bes t I coul d recal l fro m

mynote s wa s th e actua l decision . An dthi s wa s a strang e cas e becaus e Mr . Dombrof f an dI wer e actuall ytalkin g abou t th e issue s i nthi s cas e eve nbefor e th e notic e o f thi s cas e o r th e Orde r i nth e prio r cas e wen t out . Becaus e h e represente dth e compan yi nth e cours e o f th e investigation.

An dth e compan yofficia l i nth e repor t tha t yo u have. Judge , Dea nBandavanis ,



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### 2 6

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 wa s th e sam e companyofficial tha t testifie d

i nth e Respondent' s cas e i ntha t revocatio no f Angstadt . An dI recal l Mr . Dombrof f comin g t o hearing , bu t a t thi s poin t I couldn' t pu t
myhan do nth e Bibl e an dswea r t o that . But-
-

JUDG E YODER : Yo u atten dth e hearing , Mr . Dombroff?

MR . DOMBROFF : No , sir . I di dnot . JUDG E YODER : Okay . Goo dthin g yo u didn' t swea r t o it , Mr . Lewerenz .

MR . LEWEREN2 : Myrecal l i s faulty . An dth e hearin g wa s almos t thre e years , s o - - an dI've talke dt o Mr . Dombrof f her e an dther e abou t -th e cas e bu t a s earl ya s whe ni t wa s stil l i nth e investigator ystage , that' s fo r sure.

JUDG E YODER : Okay . Well , let' s com e aroun dt o wher e w e ar e o nthis . I' m goin g t o nee dtha t record . I' mgoin g t o nee da submissio nfro myou , Mr . Dombroff , a s t o any fac t issue s a s t o whic hyo u propos e t o provid e

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### 2 7

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 additiona l evidence . I' mno t sayin g yo u woul d

no t provid e th e sam e evidenc e yo u di dthere , bu t additiona l evidence . An danyo f th e factua l conclusion s i nther e tha t yo u disagre e with . MR . DOMBROFF : Understood , Judge . W e wil l d o that .

JUDG E YODER : Al l right . Now , thi s i s anothe r sor t o f peculiarit yo f thi s case , Mr . Lewerenz , tha t w e fin di nth e previou s cas e yo u wer e representin g th e Administrator , i s tha t right ?

MR . LEWERENZ : Yes . JUDG E YODER : S o th e Administrato r was , i nessence , th e prosecuto r there ?

MR . LEWERENZ : I ntha t case . JUDG E YODER : Yes . An dher e h e end s up bein g th e ultimat e decisio nmaker ?

MR . LEWERENZ : Yes . JUDG EYODER : I s tha t right ? MR . LEWERENZ : Yes . JUDGEYODER : Someon eles s

(202 ) 234-443 3 NEA LR

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### 2 8

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 familia r wit hth e AP Amigh t sugges t tha t

that' s kin do f peculia r havin g someon e b e bot h prosecuto r an ddecisio nmake r a s t o th e sam e facts . Tha t doesn' t troubl e you ?

MR . LEWERENZ : I' mno t sur e wha t t o commen t o nexcep t I've no t bee ninstructe d tha t I coul dno t d o that . However , I'l l brin g tha t t o th e attentio no f ou r Regional Counsel , th e commen t yo u jus t made .

JUDG E YODER : Well , I ' db e happ y t o hav e anyinsight s tha t yo u folk s hav e o n th e folks . Ther e ar e a coupl e o f case s t o note . There' s a nol dSuprem e Cour t cas e Withro wV . Larkin . An dthere' s a mor e recen t D.C . Circui t cas e Blinder , Robinso n& Co . vs . th e SEC . An dther e ma yb e others . I don' t wan t t o d o al l you r researc hfo r you , bu t I als o don' t wan t t o avoi dhelpin g bot ho f yo u ge t t o th e mea t o f thi s a s easil ya s yo u can .

Th e Blinde r cas e i s i n8 37 F 2nd , 1099 . An dWithro wv . Larki ni s 42 1 U S 35 . That' s a 197 5 case . An dth e Blinde r cas e i s

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### 2 9

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 a 198 8 case . An dthe ydeal , amon g othe r

things , wit hth e exceptio nt o th e prohibitio n o nactin g a s prosecuto r an ddecisio nmaker . An dth e Agenc yhea dha s a nexceptio nt o tha t descriptio nunde r th e AP Ao r a membe r o f th e Agency . Yo u know , w e use dt o hav e th e situatio nwher e case s lik e th e on e agains t Angstad t coul dwin du p i nbot hth e DO T an dth e NTS B becaus e th e civi l penalt yan dcertificat e sanctione djurisdictio nwa s divided . S o yo u coul dwin dup wit hprecisel ytha t situatio ni n anycas e involvin g a certificat e i f yo u als o pursue da civi l penalty . Bu t som e year s ag o Congres s sa wthat , perhaps , tha t wasn' t a grea t ide a sinc e yo u theoreticall ycoul dwin d

u p wit hcontrar yresult s i nth e tw o forums .

MR . DOMBROFF : Mr . Leweren z go t
cu t off . JUDG E YODER : Oh . I s h e callin g bac k in ? Okay .

Well , I' mjus t

informe dtha t

Mr .

(202 ) 234-443 3 

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### 3 0

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Leweren z go t droppe dsomehow . S o we'r e tryin g

t o recove r him ,

MR . DOMBROFF : W e shoul db e abl e t o resolv e thi s prett yquickly . Judge , i f w e hurry . JUDG E YODER : W e aren' t goin g t o sa yanythin g righ t no wunti l Mr . Leweren z get s on . Of f th e record .

(Whereupon , a t 3:3 0 p.m . of f th e recor dunti l 3:3 7 p.m. )

JUDG E YODER : Mr . Lewerenz , whe n di dw e los e you ?

MR . LEWERENZ : I' msorr yI go t lost , yo u wer e jus t discussin g th e tw o cases , Larki nan dI forgo t th e nam e o f th e othe r a t th e moment . JUDG E YODER : Blinder .

MR . LEWERENZ : Blinder . JUDG E YODER : Larki nan dBlinder . Okay . I don' t remembe r tha t w e di dmuc hafte r that .

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2 3 4 5 6 7 3 1

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Th e recor dwil l sho wth e poin t a t

whic hyo u droppe dout . I f yo u hav e concern s abou t anythin g tha t occurre dwhil e yo u weren' t on , rais e thos e whe nyo u ge t th e transcript .

MR . LEWERENZ : Okay . Than k you . JUDG E YODER : I wouldn ' t wan t t o tr yt o tel l yo u wha t transpired , bu t w e wil l kee p tha t i nth e recor dan dwe'l l pic k i t up .

Okay . S o tha t bring s u s throug h Sturgel l Angstadt .

An dI hav e a numbe r o f question s her e relatin g t o th e fact s wit hrespec t t o loading . Now
- i s Mr . Angstad t n o longe r associate dwit hColgan ?

MR . DOMBROFF : That' s correct , Judge . H e wa s terminated . H e wa s initiall y place do nleav e an dthe nonc eth e FA A proceeding s wer e complete dan da s th e revocatio nwa s affirmed , h e wa s terminated . S o sinc e tha t tim e - - well , actuall ysinc e befor e th e decisio nhe' s no t bee nactiv e a s a



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### 3 2

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 

### 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 

### pilot . An dcertainl ysinc e th e decisio nhe' s

bee nn o longe r employed .

JUDG E BROWN : Ca nyo u tel l m e wh o wa s presen t a t tha t meetin g o nMa y2 7 tha t Coat s wen t to ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I probabl ycanno t withou t goin g bac k throug hmyfile , Judge . An d- - JUDG E YODER : Wa s Captai n Angstadt ? MR . DOMBROFF : I don' t believ e h e was . Judge . JUDG E YODER : Okay . D o yo u kno w wha t Coat s wa s tol dabou t th e subjec t o f th e meeting ? MR . DOMBROFF : Well , th e original meeting , an dI'l l hav e t o g o bac k an dge t th e sequenc e o f events , bu t th e original meetin g wa s calle dwit h- - wa s requested , a s I recall , byth e companyt o dea l wit hunrelate d performanc e issue s relevan t t o Firs t Office r Coat s an di t ha dnothin g t o d o wit hthi s

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### 3 3 flight . JUDG E YODER : On e o f th e document s

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 say s tha t th e lin e captai nsen t letter s t o

Colga nconcernin g Coats ?

MR . DOMBROFF : That' s correct . Judge . That' s correct .

JUDG E YODER : D o yo u hav e thos e letters ? MR . DOMBROFF : I' msur e w e do . We'l l ge t the mfo r you . Judge . Yo u go t them .

JUDG E YODER : An dwe'v e alread y sai dw e wan t anyinvestigatio ndocuments .

MR . DOMBROFF : Absolutely , Judge , we'l l ge t thos e t o yo u a s well .

JUDG E YODER : Includin g th e result s o f th e investigation.

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir . JUDG E YODER : An dthere' s a referenc e t o th e suggestio ntha t Ma y2 7 wa s th e firs t tim e Colga nha dbee nmad e awar e o f
a nallege doverweigh t takeof f situation . I s tha t stil l you r position?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . DOMBROFF : I gues s I woul d

hav e t o chec k o nthat , an dI' mno t certai ni s ho wmuc hinformatio nth e compan yha dfro man y
o f th e message s tha t wer e lef t b yFirs t Office r Coat s prio r t o tha t poin t i ntime . Judge . An ds o I'l l hav e t o confir mth e exten t

o f an ydetai l tha t Firs t Office r Coat s provide dprio r t o meeting .

JUDG E YODER : Doe s Mr . Bandavanis

MR . DOMBROFF : Bandavanis . JUDG E YODER : Doe s h e stil l wor k fo r Colgan ?MR . DOMBROFF : I believ e h e does .

Brian , ca nyo u confir mtha t on e
wa yo r th e other ?

MR . HUNT : I - - I - - MR . DOMBROFF : Judge , eve ni f he

MR . HUN T : whil e we'r e o nthi s call . Iwil lfin dou t

MR . DOMBROFF : An deve ni f h e

(202 ) 234-443 3 

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### 3 5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 doesn't , Judge , I woul dalmos t b e certai nwe' d

hav e acces s t o hi msinc e h e wa s on e o f th e individual s - - h e wa s th e individua l wh o a t th e tim e wa s th e Directo r o f Operations . An d h e communicate dbac k t o the e FSD O Inspecto r i n connectio nwit hth e investigatio ntha t wa s undertaken . An dwe'l l provid e t o yo u - - an dI gues s w e didn ' t full yappreciat e ourselve s th e conjunctio no r th e overla p betwee nth e Angstad t investigatio nan dth e civi l penalt y agains t th e company . Bu t we'l l certainl y provid e t o you , fo r example , th e lette r reportin g th e result s o f th e company' s investigatio nt o th e FAA . An dtha t wa s signe d byCaptai nBandavanis .

JUDG E YODER : Yes . Di dyo u ge t th e origina l loa dmanifes t tha t wa s prepare d byMr . Coats ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I' mjus t tryin g t o think . I don' t kno wtha t myfil e ha s i t o r th e FAAha s it .

JUDG E YODER : Well , I woul dlik e

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### 3 6

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 t o hav e that . W e have , o f course , th e loa d manifes t unde r whic hth e fligh t operated .

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir . JUDG E YODER : An dca nyo u tel l m e wh o signe dthat ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I amlookin g a t I thin k th e loa dmanifes t fo r Fligh t 4803 , date d Apri l 18 , 2008 . An dI believe , it' s a cop yo f it , bu t i t say s Captai nSignature , an da s bes t
a s I ca ntel l it' s Jare dAngstadt .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . S o ar e w e t o assum e tha t Captai nAngstad t prepare dtha t manifest ? MR . DOMBROFF : I believ e so . Judge . I t show s Captai nJare dAngstadt , Firs t Office r B . Coat s an dth e Fligh t Attendant' s name . JUDG E YODER : Yes .

MR . DOMBROFF : H e certainl ysigne d it . I don' t kno wbecaus e w e don' t hav e th e transcrip t o r th e recor dfro mth e proceeding s

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### 1

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 agains t Captai nAngstadt . I don' t kno wwhethe r

h e testifie da s t o whethe r h e prepare di t an d the nsigne di t o r not .

JUDG E YODER : That' s Exhibi t 5 t o th e repor t tha t wa s sen t alon g byComplainant .

MR . DOMBROFF : Okay . JUDG E YODER : An dd o yo u hav e tha t i nfron t o f you ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I do . Judge . JUDG E YODER : D o yo u se e tha t i t say s 3 3 adults ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I do , Judge . JUDG E YODER : Ca nyo u tel l m e wher e tha t numbe r come s from ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Well , you'r e sayin g procedurally , wher e woul dtha t numbe r com e from ? I believ e wha t woul dhappe nis-

-

JUDG E YODER : I won' t us e a n adverb . Yo u jus t tel l m e wher e th e numbe r cam e from . MR . DOMBROFF : I believ e th e numbe r come s fro ma passenge r count . Well , I

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 don' t wan t t o sa ythat , no . I don' t kno wwhethe r o nth e Saa b aircraf t whe nthe ywer e leavin g th e gat e o r gettin g read yt o leav e th e gate , whethe r i t

cam e fro mth e Passenge r Servic e Agen t providin g th e informatio nt o th e Captai no r th e Fligh t Attendan t di da nactua l hea dcount . I don' t kno wth e answe r t o that .

JUDG E YODER : Th e number s abov e th e 3 3 - - MR . DOMBROFF : Excus e me ?

JUDG E YODER : Yo u se e th e number s abov e 33 ? MR . DOMBROFF : I do . Thos e ar e th e seat s i nth e aircraft . Yes , sir .

JUDG E YODER : An di f I tol dyo u tha t thos e number s totale d2 9 - -

MR . DOMBROFF : The ydo , that' s correct . JUDG E YODER : Woul dtha t hel p yo u t o explai nwh ytha t numbe r 3 3 i s there ?

MR . DOMBROFF : No , Judge . I t

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### 3 9

1 2 3 4 5 5 7 9 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 5 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 ? 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 wouldn't . JUDG E YODER : Al l right . I s i t

possibl e tha t tha t numbe r i s a hold-ove r fro m Coat s origina l manifest?

MR . DOMBROFF : Well , I don' t thin k Coat s woul dhav e don e a noriginal . That' s th e reaso ntha t w e don' t - - w e jus t don' t know .

JUDG E YODER : Yo u don ' t thin k ther e i s on e i nadditio nt o thi s one ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I f ther e is . Judge , I'l l confes s I' mno t awar e o f it . Le t m e loo k
a t something .

JUDG E YODER : Well , Coat s say s tha t h e di don e an dthe nAngstad t aske dhi mt o chang e i t an dtur nsom e adult s int o children .

o f that . MR . DOMBROFF : Yes . We'r e awar e

I f ther e i s on e - - JUDG E YODER : An dh e raise dth e runwa yinclin e limi t weight .

MR . DOMBROFF : Right . JUDG E YODER : Tha t show s righ t

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### 4 0

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 her e o nth e manifest .

30,000 . MR' . DOMBROFF : That' s correct , t o

JUDG E YODER : An dI tak e i t tha t didn' t troubl e anybod yi nColga nwhe nthe ysa w that ? MR . DOMBROFF : We i 1 , al l I ca n say . Judge , i s tha t the ytalke dt o - - whe n Captai nBandavanis , an dI thin k ther e wa s somebodyels e involve dbu t I ' 1 1 hav e t o g o back , whe nthe ycalle di no r talke dwit h Captai nAngstad t I ca nonl ypresum e an dwe'l l hav e t o ge t th e answe r fo r yo u tha t the ywer e satisfie dwit hth e explanations . An dI think , yo u know , th e backdro p agains t whic hthe ywer e working . Judge , i s a Captai ntha t ha dbee n wit hth e companyfo r a numbe r o f years . I'l l hav e t o chec k t o se e th e numbe r o f years , ha d
a nexemplar yrecor dwit hth e company . Ther e wa s n o - - yo u know , that' s on e o f th e firs t question s I woul dtypicall yas k i s what' s i n thei r record . An dther e wa s n o recor do f

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### 4 1

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 problem s o r issues . An d- - JUDG E YODER : Captai nAngstad t apparentl ysubmitte da statemen t abou t thi s himself . MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir .

tha none . JUDG E YODER : O r statements , mor e

MR . DOMBROFF : I believ e that' s accurat e i nterm s o f a verba l t o th e compan y a s fa r a s th e investigatio na s wel l I believ e written . JUDG E YODER : I nee dthos e statements . An di f they'r e oral , the n

MR . DOMBROFF : W e wil l ge t yo u a cop y JUDG E YODER : You'r e goin g t o provid e u s wit heverythin g ther e i s i nth e compan yo nth e investigation.

MR . DOMBROFF : W e wil l d o that , Judge . JUDG EYODER : Okay
. An danythin g

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### 4 2

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 ther e i s concernin g th e Lin e Captain' s letter s

tha t gav e ris e t o th e meetin g wit hBandavanis ?

MR . DOMBROFF : We'r e goin g t o d o that . Judge .

JUDG E YODER : No wmyunderstandin g i s tha t thi s meetin g o nMa y2 7 wa s no t calle d t o discus s thi s question ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Again , I woul dhav e t o g o bac k an dsor t o f tal k t o th e folk s wh o 

### wer einvolve di ni t b ywa yo f wha t the yha di n thei r minds . Bu t I thin k the ywer e bringin g th e Firs t Office r i nfo r th e unrelate d performanc e issue s associate dwit hth e letter s fro mothe r captains . I thin k tha t th e Firs t Office r Coat s repor t abou t Captai nAngstad t occurre dafte r tha t serie s o f event s starte d t o transpire .

JUDG E YODER : Bu t wai t a minute . Yo u los t m e there .

MR . DOMBROFF : I don ' t hav e th e
exac t - - JUDG EYODER : Ko , no . Th etimin g

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### 4 3

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 tha t yo u jus t referre dto . MR . DOMBROFF : Yes . I thin k tha t thes e tw o serie s o f event s wer e overlapping . An dI thin k th e compan ywa s bringin g Firs t Office r Coat s i nt o discus s hi s performance . I t wa s befor e the ybrough t hi mi nt o discus s hi s performanc e tha t h e starte dt o rais e th e issue s abou t Captai nAngstadt , a s a resul t o f whic hth e meetin g too k place . An di t turne d
ou t tha t th e meetin g ende du p discussin g bot h issues . JUDG E YODER : Well , I' mintereste d t o hea r tha t becaus e i npoin t o f fact , th e person , Mr . Bandavani s - -

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir . JUDG E YODER : - - sai dthat ^ the y didn' t kno wanythin g abou t thi s unti l tha t meetin g o nMa y27th .

MR . DOMBROFF : That' s right . An d th e meetin g up ende du p addressin g bot ho f them . That' s correct .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . I though t yo u

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 sai dtha t - - MR . DOMBROFF : Oh , no . I' msorry . I probabl ydidn' t mak e mysel f clear .

JUDG E YODER : An dthe nthe ymad e tha t a subjec t o f th e meeting .

MR . DOMBROFF : That' s correct . JUDG E YODER : Yes . MR . DOMBROFF : But , yo u kno wth e clea r - - an dI thin k that' s on e o f th e factor s her e agains t whic hth e backdro p o f th e company' s investigatio nha s t o b e take nint o account . Namely , they'r e bringin g thi s Firs t Office r i nbecaus e o f performanc e problems . An dwhe nhe' s sittin g ther e i na meetin g t o discus s hi s performance , h e start s makin g accusation s agains t th e Captai nwh o ha s a n exemplar yrecord .

JUDG E YODER : Mr . Bandavani s suggest s tha t Coat s mad e thi s repor t onl y afte r h e learne dtha t h e wa s bein g calle di n fo r th e Ma y2 7 meeting .

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E YODER : An dw e kno wtha t

isn' t so , don' t we ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Oh , w e kno wtha t phon e call s wer e mad e an dno t returned . correct . JUDG E YODER : Bu t w e kno wh e mad e
a Hotlin e repor t o nMa y16 , don' t we ?

MR . DOMBROFF : That' s correct , t o th e FAA . JUDG E YODER : Tha t wa s 1 1 day s befor e th e meeting .

MR . DOMBROFF : That' s correct . JUDG E YODER : S o Bandavani s jus t wasn' t awar e o f that ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Correct . An dI' m
no t eve nsure , I hav e t o g o bac k an dlook , Judge , a t th e timing . Bu t I' mno t eve nsur e tha t tha t Hotlin e repor t ha dmad e it s wa yt o th e compan ya s yet .

JUDG E YODER : I don' t know , too . MR . DOMBROFF : An dI thin k th e othe r thin g i s I thin k - -

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Essentiall yCoat s

didn' t mak e hi s contacts , althoug hh e tried .

MR . DOMBROFF : Oh , absolutely . JUDG E YODER : Whyweren' t peopl e returnin g hi s calls ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I can' t answe r that . JUDG E YODER : Wa s tha t Bandavani s o r tha t you r hea dpilot ?

MR . DOMBROFF : H e wa s th e Directo r o f Operations , no t Chie f Pilot .

JUDG E YODER : Wh o wa s th e Chie f Pilot ? MR . DOMBROFF : A t tha t time , I jus t can' t tel l yo u wh o th e Chie f Pilo t wa s fo r th e companyo r th e Chie f Pilo t fo r th e Saa bwas . JUDG E YODER : Okay .

MR . DOMBROFF : Bu t I d o kno wtha t ther e wa s mor e tha nCaptai nBandavani s involve di nth e investigation .

JUDG E YODER : O nApri l 21 , Coat s

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 trie dt o contac t th e Chie f Pilot , lef t a

message , n o reply .

Apri l 2 9 calle dth e Chie f Pilot , n o reply . Ma y7 calle dth e Chie f Pilot , lef t

a message , n o reply .

D o w e kno wwh o tha t was ? MR . DOMBROFF : I d o not , bu t w e
ca nfin dout .

JUDG E YODER : I s tha t Schmidt ? MR . DOMBROFF : Again , Judge , I can' t answe r that . I don' t know .

JUDG E YODER : H e stil l i nyou r company ? MR . DOMBROFF : I don' t kno wtha t either . We'1 1 check .

JUDG E YODER : Yes , I woul dlik e t o kno wwher e Mr . Schmid t i s an di f he ' s n o longe r there , whe nh e lef t unde r wha t circumstances .

MR . DOMBROFF : We'l l le t yo u kno w that .

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### 1

2 3 4 5 6 7 4 8

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 I' mno t aware , though , tha t o nany

o f thos e message s tha t Mr . Coat s lef t tha t h e lef t informatio ntha t a captai nha drequeste d tha t h e falsif yo r chang e a loa dmanifest .

JUDG E YODER : Yes . MR . DOMBROFF : S o ther e wa s certainl yn o informatio nlef t t o myknowledg e tha t thi s wa s a matte r o f urgenc yo r ai r safety . Bu t wha t w e d o kno wi s tha t a t th e tim e h e wa s leavin g thes e messages , th e compan yha dconcern s abou t him .

JUDG E YODER : Wha t sor t o f
concerns ? MR . DOMBROFF : Well , a s I said . th e letter s fro mothe r captain s an d performance ' issues .

JUDG E YODER : Wa s on e o f thos e fro mAngstadt ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I don' t believ e so . JUDG E YODER : An dI gathe r tha t - - MR . DOMBROFF : Th e othe r thing , jus t jumpin g back , Judge , t o th e Hotlin e



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### 4 9

• 

### 1

2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 repor t - - JUDG E YODER : Yes . MR . DOMBROFF : --h e mad e tha t o n th e sam e da y--h e mad e hi s Hotlin e repor t o n th e sam e da ytha t h e wa s notifie do f th e meetin g wit hth e companyt o discus s hi s performance , whic hfrankl yi nmyexperienc e i s alway s sor t o f a head-scratche r i nterms- -

JUDG E YODER : Wher e d o yo u ge t th e fac t tha t h e wa s notifie do nMa y16th ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Well , o nJul y16th , Captai nBandavani s wrot e t o Inspecto r Lundgrin , an dw e wil l suppl ythi s t o yo u a s par t o f th e informatio nwe'r e supplyin g i f yo u don' t hav e i t already , tha t - -

MR . LEWERENZ : That' s i nth e fil e tha t wa s sen t t o th e Judge , an dit' s 28 .

MR . DOMBROFF : Okay . I nwhic h Captai nBandavani s pointe dou t tha t Firs t Office r Coat s phone di nhi s complain t t o th e FA Ath e sam e da yh e wa s notifie do f th e meetin g t o discus s hi s performance . Firs t



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### 5 0

• 

### 1

2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Office r Coat s - - JUDG E YODER : H e doesn' t mentio n th e cal l t o th e Hotline .

MR . DOMBROFF : Well , no . Well , I thin k tha t certainl yfro mCaptai nBandavanis ' understanding , th e cal l t o th e FAA , presumabl y th e Hotline , wa s mad e th e sam e da yh e wa s notifie do f th e meetin g t o discus s hi s performance , whic hcause dth e compan y- - an d I' m- - JUDG E YODER : I t doesn' t sa ywhe n h e wa s notified .

MR . DOMBROFF : Excus e me ? JUDG E YODER : I t doesn' t sa ywhe n h e wa s notified .

MR . DOMBROFF : Oh , no . I ntha t lette r i t doesn't . That' s correct . That' s Correct . Bu t certainl y- -

JUDG E YODER : Yo u jus t finishe d tellin g m e tha t i t wa s th e sam e da ytha t h e Calle dth e Hotline .

MR . DOMBROFF : Oh , that' s correct . 

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### 5 1

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 An d- -

that ? JUDG E YODER : Wher e d o yo u fin d

MR . DOMBROFF : Oh , I fin di t i n Captai nBandavanis ' lette r t o th e FAA . H e says , I' dlik e t o poin t ou t tha t th e dat e Firs t Office r Coat s phone di nhi s complain t t o th e FA Awa s th e sam e da yh e wa s notifie do f th e meetin g t o discus s hi s performance . Firs t Office r Coat s als o claime d~ -

JUDG E YODER : Th e Hotline ? MR . DOMBROFF : Excus e me ? JUDG E YODER : Doe s tha t sa y Hotline ? MR . DOMBROFF : Oh , i t doesn't .

JUDG E YODER : Wha t ar e yo u readin g from ? Ar e yo u readin g fro mth e Jul y1 6 letter ? MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir .

JUDG E YODER : Wher e ar e you ? MR . DOMBROFF : Thir dparagraph , firs t page .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Okay . Thir d

paragraph . Calle dth e FA AHotlin e tw o day s prior . That ' s tw o day s prio r t o Ma y27 , right ? MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir .

JUDG E YODER : Tha t woul db e Ma y 25 , right ? MR . DOMBROFF : Right .

JUDG E YODER : An dw e kno wtha t that' s no t - - tha t h e actuall ycalle do nth e 16th . MR . DOMBROFF : Wel l I - -

JUDG E YODER : No t o nth e 25th . MR . DOMBROFF : Well , al l I kno wi s tha t Captai nBandavani s - -

JUDG E YODER : H e say s it' s th e
sam e day . MR . DOMBROFF : Yes .

JUDG E YODER : He' s basin g tha t o n th e 25th . 

### MR. DOMBROFF : Well , Ithin k he' s basin g tha t

o nwha t

h ewa s tol db yFirs t

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### 5 3

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Office r Coats . JUDG E YODER : I' msorry , bu t wha t i t say s her e i s tha t h e sai dh e wil l cal l th e Hotlin e tw o day s prio r t o Ma y2 7th , i s tha t no t wha t i t says ?

MR . DOMBROFF : H e claime da t th e tim e tha t h e ha dcalle dth e FA AHotlin e tw o day s prio r t o fil e a complain t abou t a fligh t h e ha dbee no na mont hearlie r - -

JUDG E YODER : That ' s tw o day s prio r t o Ma y27th , correct ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I don' t necessaril y rea dthat . Judge .

JUDG E YODER : Durin g th e meetin g Firs t Office r Coat s produce da smal l piec e o f pape r fro mhi s wallet .

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , I se e wher e you'r e talking , yes .

JUDG E YODER : Th e fligh t number . MR . DOMBROFF : Yes . JUDG E YODER : H e claime da t th e time , i s tha t no t Ma y27th ?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . DOMBROFF : Yes . JUDG E YODER : Than k you . Tw o day s prio r t o tha t woul db e Ma y25 , woul di t not ?

MR . DOMBROFF : That' s correct . JUDG E YODER : S o apparentl yMr . Bandavani s ha s somethin g a littl e crosse dup there ? MR . DOMBROFF : Well , I thin k - -

JUDG E YODER : H e think s tha t th e Hotlin e cal l wa s mad e o nth e 2 5th , an dtha t apparentl ywa s th e dat e o nwhic hh e wa s notifie do f thi s meeting .

MR . DOMBROFF : Well , I thin k al l he' s doin g i s recountin g wha t h e wa s tol db y Firs t Offic e Coats , Judge .

JUDG E YODER : Well , I don' t kno w whethe r he' s recountin g i t o r not . W e kno w wha t wa s sai di nthi s lette r - -

MR . DOMBROFF : Well , h e sai d- - JUDG E YODER : - - an dw e kno wh e sai di nthi s lette r tha t Ma y2 5 wa s th e dat e

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### 5 5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 

### o nwhic hh e wa s notifie do f th e meetin g o nMa y

27 , isn' t tha t wha t h e says ?

MR . DOMBROFF : H e say s tha t - - JUDG E YODER : Thin k abou t that . Don' t answe r i nhaste . Becaus e you r earlie r answer s i nhast e hav e no t necessaril ybee n correct . MR . DOMBROFF : Well , I - -

JUDG E YODER : Wha t I' msuggestin g t o yo u i s tha t thi s lette r doe s no t sa ytha t h e calle dth e Hotlin e o nth e sam e da ytha t h e wa s notifie do f thi s meeting . No wyo u thin k abou t tha t an dyo u com e u p wit hanythin g yo u can . Al l right . I f that' s th e positio nyo u wan t t o take , yo u com e up wit hsomethin g tha t support s that . Bu t yo u migh t wan t t o com e u p wit hsomethin g othe r the nthi s lette r becaus e thi s lette r seem s t o suppor t somethin g else .

MR . DOMBROFF : I hea r wha t you'r e saying . Judge . An dwe'l l certainl yaddres s th e subject .

JUDG E YODER : Tha t woul db e a goo d

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### 5 6

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 idea . Okay . So , let' s see . S o I tak e i t the n tha t whe nthre e differen t source s sai dtha t ther e wer e 3 4 passenger s o nthi s flight , Colga nn o longe r dispute s that ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I think , base dupo n th e investigation , Colga nha dn o basi s t o disput e th e loa dmanifest , that' s correct .

JUDG E YODER : Well , I don' t kno w wha t loa dmanifes t you'r e talkin g about . Yo u mea nth e loa dmanifes t tha t w e jus t finishe d lookin g at ?MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir .

JUDG E YODER : Tha t show s 3 3 passenger s tha t ad du p t o 29 ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Well , ther e wer e 3 3 passengers , on e chil dan don e infan t withou t
a jum p sea t rider . I f anything , th e weight-

- JUDG E YODER : Well , th e report s I se e i nher e sayther e wer e n o children . Ther e wa s a ninfan t - - oh , you'r e talkin g abou t th e manifest ?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir . Yes ,

sir . Yes , sir .

JUDG E YODER : Yes . Well , w e kno w it' s wrong , don' t we ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes . JUDG E YODER : M yquestio nwa s whethe r yo u agre e tha t ther e wer e 3 4 passengers , a ninfan t an dn o children ; that' s wha t Exhibi t 6 , 7 an d8 say .

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes . JUDG E YODER : Okay . An dyou'r e goin g t o fin dtha t earlie r manifes t fo r m e i f yo u can ? MR . DOMBROFF : I f on e exists , yes .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . D o yo u kno w ho wfa r ove r th e weight s limit s yo u wer e o n thi s flight ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I thin k i t wa s i n th e rang e o f 20 0 pounds . I' dhav e t o loo k bac k in

- - JUDG E YODER : I thin k Coat s sai d i t wa s 20 0befor e yo u too k o nth e jum p sea t

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2 3 4 5 6 7 passenger .

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . DOMBROFF : An d- - I' dhav e t o

g o bac k int o th e fil e an dfin dit . Judge .

JUDG E YODE R: Oka y. Yo u don ' t hav e anyquestio no f Angstadt , tha t Angstad t
a s a captai nha dth e authorit yt o allo wa jum p sea t passenger ?

MR . DOMBROFF : H e ha dth e authorit yt o allo wa jum p sea t passenger , bu t h e di dno t hav e th e authorit yt o allo wa jum p sea t passenge r o r anythin g els e tha t woul dpu t th e aircraf t overweight , an dh e wa s punishe d fo r it . JUDG E YODER : Bu t h e ha dt o mak e thos e determinations , didn' t he ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Wei 1 - - JUDG E YODER : Tha t wa s hi s job . MR . DOMBROFF : Hi s job , wel l yes . A s pilo t i ncomman dh e ha dt o mak e thos e determinations . Bu t h e di dno t hav e th e authorit yo r th e abilit yo r th e imprimatu r t o li e an dfalsif yrecords .

{202 ) 234-443 3 NEA LR

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 JUDG E YODER : Well , h e apparentl y

ha dth e ability , whethe r h e ha dth e authorit y

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 o r not . MR . DOMBROFF : Oh , w e al l

absolutely . Judge . W e al l hav e tha t ability .

JUDG E YODER : Oh , okay . No wI'v e go t a lis t o f peopl e wh o appea r a t on e poin t o r anothe r i nthes e documents . I s Coat s stil l around ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I don' t kno wth e
answe r t o that . We'l l check .

JUDG E YODER : Mr . Lewerenz , di d yo u hav e i nmin dcallin g him ?

MR . LEWERENZ : Yes . Th e las t tim e

w e wer e i ntouc hwit hhi mwa s a t th e tim e o f th e hearing . Bu t w e hav e contac t informatio n fro mhi m

an dw e probabl ycoul dlocat e hi m again . JUDG E YODER : An dthi s al l assume s we'r e goin g t o nee da trial . An dbea r i nmin d tha t th e issu e her e i s whethe r Colga nviolate d th e regulations . An dther e ma yb e lot s o f

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 

### 2 1 2 2 issue s relatin g t o tha t tha t hav e t o d o wit h

th e wa ythi s matte r wa s handled . Ther e ma yno t b e suc hissue s i f i nfac t Colga nrecognize s it s responsibilit yfo r th e action s o f it s captain , o r i f w e decid e irrespectiv e o f thei r acceptin g suc hresponsibility , tha t the yar e i nfac t responsibl e fo r th e action s o f th e captain . Eithe r o f thos e conclusion s migh t resul t i nno t needin g thi s extensiv e factua l examination . Bu t I wante dt o ge t som e ide a o f wher e w e ar e wit hrespec t t o thes e witnesse s i f w e win du p wit ha fac t hearing .

Jeffre yWood , i s h e around ? MR . DOMBROFF : He' s a U.S . Airway s Captai nan dw e don' t know . Judge , whethe r h e i s o r h e isn't .

JUDG E YODER : Well , le t m e stic k wit hMr . Leweren z fo r a while .

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes . JUDG E YODER : Jeffrey , i s h e on e o f you r prospectiv e witnesses ?

MR . LEWERENZ ; Yes , sir .

{202 ) 234-443 3 NEA LR

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Lundgrin ? MR . LEWERENZ : Yes , sir . He ' s stil l wit hth e FAA .

th e FAA . JUDG E YODER : Leshok ?

MR . LEWERENZ : Yes , he' s als o wit h

JUDG E YODER : An dBandavani s w e kno wi s stil l around .

Bil l Honan ? I s h e stil l th e Chie f Pilot ? MR . DOMBROFF : No , sir .

JUDG E YODER : He' s th e on e wh o too k ove r fro m

th e previou s on e w e mentioned , Schmidt , th e on e wh o doesn' t answe r telephon e calls ?

Judge . MR . DOMBROFF : Won' t comment ,

JUDG E YODER : No . An dHona nwa s involve di nthi s i nsom e way .

Mar yFinnigan ? MR . DOMBROFF : She' s stil l around , althoug hno t wit hth e compan yan ylonger .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 JUDG E YODER : Wit hColga nyo u

mean ? MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir .

JUDG E YODER ; Okay , An dthe nw e hav e Scot t Robinson ? Laur a Gore ?

MR . LEWERENZ : Yes , h e wa s th e deadhaeadin g passenge r o r non-revenu e passenger . JUDG E YODER : Robinso nwa s th e deadheadin g passenger , wasn' t he ?

MR . LEWERENZ : Yes . JUDG E YODER : Laur a Gore ? MR . LEWERENZ : Wit hU.S . Air .

Canalia ? JUDG E YODER : Yes . An dChristophe r

MR . LEWERENZ : Als o wit hU.S . Air . JUDG E YODER : Okay . Let' s mov e o n here . Yo u folk s kno wwha t yo u nee dt o provid e

m e i nterm s o f facts . An dyou'r e als o goin g t o
nee dsom e briefin g t o b e don e becaus e i f yo u aren' t goin g t o accep t responsibilit yfo r you r 

### captain' s activity , you'r egoin g t o hav et o

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1 sho wm e ho wyo u ca nsuppor t that . 2 MR . DOMBROFF : I understand , 3 Judge . 4 JUDG E YODER : Okay . S o the nw e 5 ge t t o th e questio no f smal l business . An dar e 6 yo u stil l contendin g tha t Colga ni s a smal l 7 business ? 8 MR . DOMBROFF : Absolutely , Judge . 9 JUDG E YODER : Okay . An dwhethe r 1 0 o r no t you'r e a smal l busines s depend s o n 1 1 whethe r Colga nan dit s affiliate s hav e les s 1 2 the n150 0 employees , i s tha t right ? 1 3 MR . DOMBROFF : No . It' s whethe r 1 4 Colga nha s les s the n150 0 employees . 1 5 JUDG E YODER : Oh , I see . S o yo u 1 6 don' t loo k t o affiliate s i ndecidin g whethe r 1 7 Colga ni s a smal l business ? 1 8 MR . DOMBROFF : I thin k on e look s 1 9 t o th e relationshi p wit haffiliate s t o 2 0 determin e whethe r o r not , i nthi s cas e Colgan , 2 1 fall s withi nth e categor yo f smal l business . 2 2 An dI thin k ou r position . Judge , it' s base d

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### 6 4

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Upo nth e relationship , on e doe s no t coun t

thos e employees . That' s correct .

JUDG E YODER : I see . Okay . S o 10 3 (a ) (1 ) , doesn ' t tha t saytha t affiliate s o f affiliate s ar e affiliates ? 121-103{a ) (1 ) .

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , bu t I - - JUDG E YODER : Ho wabou t 121-106 . MR . DOMBROFF : I understand . I don ' t hav e i t i nfron t o f me , Judge , bu t I thin k - - JUDG E YODER : Well , 121-106 , a s I understan dit , basicall ysay s tha t th e numbe r o f employee s i s th e tota l numbe r o f employee s o f al l affiliates . Isn' t tha t wha t 10 6 says ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I t does . JUDG E YODER : Okay . S o you r contentio ni s the ntha t Pinnacl e Corp . i s no t
a naffiliat e o f Colgan ?

MR . DOMBROFF : That' s correct , no t withi nth e meanin g o f affiliate . That' s correct . JUDG E YODER : Okay .

(202 ) 234-443 3 NEA LR

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 

### MR . DOMBROFF : Becaus e on e ha s t o

g o t o th e SBAdefinitions . An dou r positio ni s tha t on e woul dno t coun t th e Pinnacl e Airline s peopl e - - o r th e Pinnacl e Airline s Corp . people . It' s a holdin g company , Judge . An dI believ e th e holdin g company , i f I' mno t mistaken , I thin k it' s somewher e i non e o f th e document s ha d3 5 people .

JUDG E YODER : I s i t a ninvestmen t companyunde r th e Investmen t Compan yAct ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Aholdin g company . I thin k wha t we'r e - -

JUDG E YODE R: Ye s . That ' s no t wha t I asked , though . I s i t a ninvestmen t compan yunde r th e Investmen t Compan yAct ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I can' t answe r - - JUDG E YODER : You'r e bringin g a n exceptio nunde r th e rule s fo r smal l business ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I can' t answe r that . JUDGEYODER : Okay
.

MR . DOMBROFF : Bu t Iwil lge t

yo u

(202 ) 234-443 3 NEA LR

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1 2 

### 3 4 5 6 7 th e answer . JUDG E YODER : You'r e goin g t o nee d

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 to . MR . DOMBROFF : Absolutely . JUDG E YODER : Colga ni s 10 0 percen t owne dbyPinnacl e Corp. , i s i t not ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I t is . JUDG E YODER : Unde r anydefinitio n o f affiliate s tha t I've see nt o date , tha t make s the m

a naffiliate . MR . DOMBROFF : Bu t th e holdin g companytha t own s the mI believ e - - I thin k - - I can' t pu t myhand s o nth e document .

JUDG E YODER : Th e compan ytha t own s Pinnacl e Corp. ?

MR . DOMBROFF : No , th e Pinnacl e Corp . whic hown s Pinnacl e Airlines , an dBria n wil l jump i nan dcorrec t me , an down s Colga n Ai r - - JUDG E YODER : Yes .



### MR . DOMBROFF

: - - onl y3 5 - - o r

a t th etim eonl yha d- - Ibeliev ei t wa s 3 5

(202 ) 234-443 3 NEA LR

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 employees . JUDG E YODER : Yes , okay . MR . DOMBROFF : Fo r th e holdin g company , i.e . th e affiliate , onl yha d3 5 employees . Th e onl ywa yyo u ca nge t ove r th e 150 0 i s b ycountin g th e Pinnacl e Airline s employees , whic hi s a nentirel yseparat e compan ywit ha nentirel yseparat e certificat e havin g nothin g othe r the ncommo nownershi p b y Pinnacl e Corp .

JUDG E YODER : I t i s wholl yowne d b yPinnacl e Corp. ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Excus e me , Judge ? JUDG E YODER : I t i s totall yowne d b yPinnacl e Corp. ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir . JUDG E YODER : I f affiliate s o f affiliate s ar e affiliates , the nthey'r e affiliates . MR . DOMBROFF : I wouldn' t eve n kno who wt o commen t o ntha t withou t studyin g th e question .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Well , i t migh t b e a

goo dide a i f you'r e goin g t o mak e thi s allegation . MR . DOMBROFF : Yo u bet .

JUDG E YODER : Ca nyo u tel l m e whethe r Pinnacle , Inc . , yo u sa ytha t i s wholl y
owne db yPinnacl e Corp. ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Pinnacl e Airline s i s wholl yowne db yPinnacl e Corp .

JUDG E YODE R: Al l righ t . In c . , isn' t it ? MR . DOMBROFF : Excus e me ?

JUDG E YODER : I s tha t differen t fro m Pinnacle , Inc. ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Well , I gues s I' m talkin g i nterm s o f th e operatin g airlines . Pinnacl e Airlines , Inc . i s wholl yowne db yth e holdin g compan yPinnacl e Corp .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . And , yo u kno w
o f cours e tha t ther e ar e website s fo r Pinnacl e Corp . an dPinnacle , Inc ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E YODER : An dyo u kno wtha t

thos e website s saysomethin g abou t th e numbe r o f employees ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I' msur e the ydo . I thin k th e issu e become s fro mou r perspective , certainly , wha t wa s th e situatio n a t tha t time .

JUDG E YODER : Yes . MR . DOMBROFF : Becaus e th e numbe r o f employees , obviousl y- - well , I gues s I coul dsa yobviously . Th e numbe r o f employee s ha s change d- -

JUDG E YODER : Yes . MR . DOMBROFF : - - sinc e th e tim e o f thi s violation .

JUDG E YODER : Well , I gathe r tha t th e submissio ntha t w e hav e fro mColga nt o dat e suggest s tha t Pinnacl e Corp . - - I gues s thi s wa s i nanswe r t o interrogatories , ha s 13 8 employees ? MR . DOMBROFF : That' s correct .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . An dth e

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9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 websit e say s 7700 ? MR . DOMBROFF : Right . Right . Bu t I thin k what' s bein g counte dther e i s th e airlines , th e operatin g airlines ' employees .

JUDG E YODER : Yo u mea nPinnacl e Airlines , Inc ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Correct . JUDG E YODER : D o yo u kno wtha t i t ha s a websit e also ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I' msur e i t does . Yes , sir . JUDG E YODER : Well , yo u kno wtha t i t say s i t ha s ove r 4,000 ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I thin k als o sinc e th e tim e o f thi s event . Pinnacl e ha s als o purchase dMesab a Airlines . S o mygues s i s tha t th e number s reflec t tha t a s well . S o I thin k i nterm s o f th e numbe r o f employee s a t any give ntim e i s somethin g o f a movin g target . Bu t w e d o kno wwha t th e numbe r o f employee s wa s tha t Colga nAi r ha da t tha t time , a t th e 

### time o f - -

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9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E YODER : That' s no t goin g t o

hel p yo u i f thes e ar e al l affiliates .

MR . DOMBROFF : Well , I' mno t sur e I necessaril yagre e wit hthat , Judge , an d that' s wh ywe'r e goin g t o presen t ou r authorit yt o you .

JUDG E YODER : Well , I thin k yo u woul dagre e wit hth e statement . Yo u wouldn' t agre e wit hth e fac t tha t they'r e affiliate s i s wha t you'r e saying ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I wouldn' t agre e wit hth e fac t tha t - -

JUDG E YODER : Th e numbe r o f Colga n employee s i s no t goin g t o hel p yo u i f al l thes e peopl e ar e affiliate s an dthe yhave-

-

MR . DOMBROFF : I won' t necessaril y agre e wit hthat . Judge . No .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . Al l right . Well , that'1 1 b e anothe r interestin g brie f tha t you'r e goin g t o prepar e fo r me .

MR . DOMBROFF : Understood . JUDG E YODER : Becaus e i f you'r e

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### 7 2

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 goin g t o conten dtha t you'r e a smal l business ,

the nyou'r e goin g t o hav e t o fil e wit hm e affidavit s showin g th e relationshi p o f al l thes e companies .

MR . DOMBROFF : Understood . JUDG E YODER : We'l l nee dt o kno w wh o al l th e director s o f al l th e companie s are . MR . DOMBROFF : Understood .

JUDG E YODER : Al l th e officer s o f al l th e companies .

D o yo u kno wi f ther e ar e commo n directorie s here ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I' mtryin g t o g o bac k i ntime , Judge , t o th e tim e o f thi s event . An dI wan t t o saytha t ther e ma yhav e bee non e commo ndirector .

JUDG E YODER : Oh , okay . Woul di t surpris e yo u t o lear ntha t th e interrogator y response s sho wfou r commo ndirectorie s betwee n Colga nAi r an dPinnacle ?

MR . DOMBROFF : I' dhav e t o se e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 wha t th e tim e fram e was .

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 responses . JUDG E YODER : Well , they'r e you r

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , I understand , Judge . JUDG E YODER : Yes .

MR . DOMBROFF : I understand . An d we'l l provid e al l tha t information , a s you'v e indicated . JUDG E YODER : Woul dyo u als o b e surprise dt o lear ntha t i na pre-hearin g conferenc e i nth e othe r case , 17 , you r Mr . Rya nstated , quote , ther e ar e n o share d directors , clos e quote ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Again , Judge , i f I wasn ' t o na t tha t conference , I jus t can ' t commen t a s t o wha t ma yhav e bee nsai dthere .

JUDG E YODER : Yo u migh t wan t t o b e awar e o f that , though .

M R. DOMBROFF : Absolutely . Yo u bet . JUDG EYODER : Becaus ew ed o tak e

(202) 234-443 3 NEA LR

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 seriousl yth e representation s tha t ar e mad e by

attorneys . MR . DOMBROFF : I agree . A s d o I .

JUDG E YODER : An di f i nfac t w e ever yg o t o a tria l i nthi s case , I shoul d advis e bot hpartie s tha t w e tak e seriousl y testimon ythat' s give ni nth e cases . An d particularl ywhe nyo u hav e tw o hearing s o nth e sam e subject , th e potentia l fo r a misstatemen t i s great . An dth e potentia l for , i nthi s particula r case , fo r intentiona l misstatemen t i s no t al l tha t sli mgive nwha t yo u sa yabou t you r ow ncaptain .

MR . DOMBROFF : I agre e wit hyou . Judge . JUDG E YODER : Yes . An dI shoul d als o ad dt o th e recor dtha t I amth e onl y Federa l Administrativ e La wJudg e tha t I' m awar e o f wh o ha s successfull yreferre dfo r prosecutio na perjur ytha t appeare di na hearin g befor e me . That' s jus t t o le t yo u kno wtha t w e d o regar dth e statement s mad e i n

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### 7 5

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 thes e proceeding s seriously . An dI' msur e yo u

do , too . MR . DOMBROFF : Well , Judge , I woul dexpec t nothin g les s o f yo u an dI expec t nothin g les s o f myself .

JUDG E YODER : Ar e ther e anyothe r companie s owne dbyPinnacl e Corp. ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Currentl yI can' t answe r tha t question , bu t we'l l provid e tha t information .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . MR . DOMBROFF : I believ e tha t Pinnacl e Corp . acquire dMesab a Airline s i nth e interim . Bu t beyon dthat , I can' t tel l yo u i f ther e ar e other s o r i f ther e ar e othe r servic e companie s o r what . Bu t we'll-

-

JUDG E YODER : An dyou r interrogator yrespons e say s tha t Pinnacl e Corp . i s publicl yheld . I s tha t right ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Whic hinterrogator y ar e yo u referrin g to . Judge .

JUDG E YODER : I'l l tel l yo u i na

{202 ) 234-443 3 NEA LR

. GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE. , N.W

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. co m

### 7 6 minute . Respons e 2 .

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , correc t

Pinnacl e Airlines , Corp . i s a publicl yhel d company . JUDG E YODER : Okay . D o yo u kno w wh o control s it ?

MR . DOMBROFF : No , I don't . JUDG E YODER : D o yo u kno who w widel yth e stoc k i s held ?

MR . DOMBROFF : No , I don't . JUDG E YODER : D o yo u kno wi f ther e i s a bloc k o f stoc k hel dbya nindividua l o r othe r entit ytha t woul denabl e i t t o hav e control ? MR . DOMBROFF : I d o no t kno wth e answe r t o that .

JUDG E YODER : I norde r t o addres s th e issu e w e ar e addressing , yo u wil l - -

MR . DOMBROFF : I understand . An d I kno wtha t w e hav e - -

JUDG E YODER : - - nee dt o kno wth e answe r t o that .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . DOMBROFF : Well , we'l l ge t th e

answer . Bu t I kno wwe'v e addresse dsom e o f thi s i nou r othe r answer s t o interrogatorie s i nth e contex t o f - -

JUDG E YODER : Becaus e wha t thi s involve s i s a nexaminatio no f you r shareholde r record s - - MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir .

JUDG E YODER : i norde r t o determin e th e distributio no f shareholding . I mean , unles s yo u actuall ykno wtha t ther e i s i na fac t a Dadd yWarbuck s ou t ther e wh o reall ycontrol s Pinnacl e Corp .

MR . DOMBROFF : Right . Right . JUDG E YODER : Yes . I ha da case , o hmayb e 3 0 year s ag o whe nI firs t starte da s
a nALJ , actuall yi t migh t hav e bee n34 year s ago . Th e cas e wa s named_Catha yPacific . An d th e questio nther e wa s whethe r Catha yPacifi c
wa s a U.S . citizen . An db yth e tim e w e go t throug hlookin g a t Catha yPacific , I thin k ther e mus t hav e bee n3 0 o r 4 0 interlocutor y- -



### NEA L R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISUN D AVE. , N.W

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### 1

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 interlockin g companie s an downershi p

interests . And , o f course , th e Smal l Busines s regulation s requir e tha t yo u disclos e any agreement s tha t migh t relat e contro l o f share s o r votin g agreement s o r th e like. S o al l tha t woul dhav e t o b e provided .

MR . DOMBROFF : Understood . JUDG E YODER : Okay . No wlet' s se e wha t else . Al l right . I s Colga nassertin g th e abilit yt o pa ya s a nissu e i nthi s case ?

MR . DOMBROFF : No , sir . JUDG E YODER : Okay . S o w e ca nge t ri do f that .

Mr . Lewerenz , ca nyo u tel l m e whethe r th e propose dpenalt yher e wa s assume d
o r di dno t assum e tha t ther e wa s a smal l business ? MR . LEWERENZ : Thi s penalt ywhe n i t wa s calculate dassume di t wa s a smal l business . JUDG E YODER : I t did ?

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. GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE.

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### 7 9

1 2 3 4 5 6 1 

### 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 

### MR . LEWERENZ : Yes . JUDG E YODER : Okay . MR . LEWERENZ : I hav e t o tel l you , Judge , I' mapologizing . I' musin g a handse t an dI' m

gettin g a lo wbatter ymessage . J\yi>G ^YODER : Okay
. Vie'r ealmos t 

### through . MR . LEWERENZ : Okay .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . Al l right . D o eithe r o f yo u hav e an yquestion s tha t yo u wan t t o rais e a t thi s point ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Nothin g o nbehal f
o f Colgan , Judge . We'l l ge t yo u th e informatio n- -

JUDG E YODER : Mr . Lewerenz , anything? MR . LEWERENZ : No . No , I don' t hav e an yquestions .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . The nI nee d fro myo u folk s a dat e bywhic hthes e variou s submission s ar e goin g t o b e made . An dwha t I nee dfro mColga ni s a nindicatio na s t o it s

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### NEA L R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE.

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### 8 0

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 positio nwit hrespec t t o fac t issues . I nee d

th e previou s cas e record ; tha t ca ncom e fro m Mr . Lewerenz . H e ha s that .

MR . LEWERENZ : Yes . JUDG E YODER : I nee da statemen t fro mColga na s t o wha t fac t contention s it s goin g t o mak e differen t fro mth e finding s i n th e previou s case . I don' t kno wwhethe r I woul dmak e th e sam e finding s the ydi do r no t ; tha t woul dhav e t o b e determine di f w e win du p wit hfac t case. Bu t I kno wwha t yo u folk s pla n t o pu t a t issue , i f anything , factually .

MR . DOMBROFF : Understood . JUDG E YODER : The nw e nee dth e fact s relate dt o th e clai mo f smal l business . I mean , i f yo u calculate dthi s o nth e basi s o f smal l business , Mr . Lewerenz , i s smal l busines s a nissu e i nthi s case ?

MR . LEWERENZ : I mean , it' s - - I mean , w e hav e jus t wha t th e representation s ar e an dit' s th e calculatio ntha t w e made . S o i nthi s cas e i t ma yno t b e a nissu e becaus e

(202 ) 234-443 3 

### NEA L R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE. , N.W

. WASHINGTON , D.C

. 20005-370 1 www.nealrgross.co m1

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 that ' s th e assumptio nw e wen t o ni n

Calculatin g civi l penalty .

JUDG E YODER : That' s i f yo u didn' t prevai l o nal l you r claims , tha t woul daffec t th e maximu m

yo u coul dcollect , wol di t not ? MR . LEWERENZ : YeS . JUDG E YODER : An ds o i f i t weren' t

a smal l business , th e resul t migh t b e differen t the ni f i t were ? I'l l le t yo u folk s tal k t o eac hothe r abou t tha t an dtr yt o figur e ou t whethe r smal l busines s i s reall yi n question . I don' t wan t t o remak e th e small

busines s whee l i f i nfac t it' s no t a nissu e i n thi s case . Okay ?

MR . DOMBROFF : We'l l tak e wit hMr . Leweren z abou t it . Judge .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . An dthe ni t Wouldn' t hur t t o tal k abou t settlin g thi s Case . MR , DOMBROFF : Ther e hav e bee n discussions , Judge .

JUDG E YODER : Ye s . I ' v e bee n

(202 ) 234^43 3 

### NEAL R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE.

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### 8 2

1 hearin g tha t fo r ove r a year . 2 MR . DOMBROFF : I appreciat e that . 3 Al l I ca ntel l yo u i s tha t ther e hav e bee n 4 som e recen t discussions . An dwe'r e certainly

5 6 JUDG E YODER : We'v e go t a numbe r o f 7 case s pending . 8 MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir . 9 JUDG E YODER : S o yo u ge t t o loo k 1 0 forwar dt o som e mor e o f thes e i f - - 1 1 MR . DOMBROFF : It' s alway s a 1 2 pleasure , Judge . 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Wel l me , too . 1 4 S o whe nd o yo u wan t t o mak e thos e 1 5 submissions? Mr . Lewerenz , whe nca nyo u ge t 1 6 m e th e record ? 1 7 MR . LEWERENZ : I thin k w e coul dd o 1 8 s o withi ntw o weeks . It' s jus t tha t th e 1 9 original fil e migh t hav e bee narchived . S o I 2 0 jus t hav e t o chec k o nthat . 2 1 JUDG E YODER : Al l right . Well , yo u 2 2giv e m e a dat e tha t yo u ca nliv e with . I f i t

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### NEA L R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE. , N.W

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### need s t o b e changed , we'1 1 loo k a t changin g it . Bu t I' dlik e t o star t wit ha dat e tha t i s

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 agreeable . MR . LEWERENZ : Sure . JUDG E YODER : S o wha t dat e ar e yo u lookin g for ? Th e 27t hwoul db e tw o weeks .

MR . LEWERENZ : Yes . I f w e hav e it , w e ca nge t i t ou t t o yo u bythen . I f there' s a problem , we'l l le t yo u kno wan das k fo r a nextension .

JUDG E YODER : I don' t wan t yo u t o giv e m e i f s an dmaybes . I wan t a dat e by whic hi t wil l b e i nmyhand s absen t a reques t fo r relief .

MR . LEWEREN Z : Okay . Ho wabou t Monday , Augus t 1st .

JUDG E YODE R: Augus t 1st . Oka y. And , Mr . Dombroff , d o yo u wan t t o tal k wit hMr . Leweren z abou t th e questio no f smal l busines s an dthe nyo u wan t t o - - i f it' s goin g t o b e i nth e case , you'r e goin g t o hav e t o sen dm e th e informatio nI've indicated .

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### NEA L R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE. , N.W

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### 8 4

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . DOMBROFF : Yo u bet . Judge . JUDG E YODER : An dbrie f it . MR . DOMBROFF : An dyo u wil l - - JUDG E YODER : An di f fact s ar e goin g t o b e i nth e case , you'r e goin g t o hav e t o tel l m e wha t fact s an dwe'l l decid e o nth e basi s o f tha t whethe r w e nee da fac t hearin g
o r not . MR . DOMBROFF : Yes , sir .

JUDG E YODER : An di f th e onl y issu e i s whethe r Colga ni s responsibl e fo r th e act s o f it s officer s an dpilots , i f on e o f you r pilot s get s o nth e plan e an dflie s int o a tal l buildin g i nManhatta nbecaus e h e decide s h e doesn' t fee l goo dtha t day , you'l l hav e t o figur e ou t whethe r Colga nha s any responsibilit yfo r that .

MR . DOMBROFF : Well , yo u kno wI thin k you'v e pu t you r finge r o ni t there . I thin k ther e ar e circumstance s wher e action s - - clearl yaction s o f pilot s i nth e norma l cours e o f thei r employmen t ar e chargeabl e t o thei r

(202 ) 234^43 3 

### NEAL R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE.

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### 1

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 employer . I thin k - - bu t I don' t thin k tha t

i t - - JUDG E YODER : Bu t yo u brie f tha t an dyo u le t m e kno wwha t th e basi s o f tha t is .

MR . DOMBROFF : Yes . JUDG E YODER : An dwhe nd o yo u wan t t o d o al l o f that .

MR . DOMBROFF : Tha t w e ca n- - th e onl yreaso nI' m

hesitating , Judge , i s I' mjus t wonderin g whethe r o r no t there' s somethin g i n thi s tria l recor do nth e Angstad t matte r tha t woul dimpac t wha t w e woul dsubmi t t o you .

JUDG E YODER : Well , sure . I mea n that' s whyI aske dyo u whe nyo u wan t t o d o it .

MR . DOMBROFF : I woul dsa yw e wil l

- - w e don' t hav e t o wai t unti l w e hav e tha t t o ge t started . S o I woul dsayw e wil l hav e t o yo u ou r ful l submission s o nal l o f thes e issue s withi nte nday s afte r w e receiv e tha t recor do nth e Angstad t matte r fro mMr . Lewerenz . JUDG EYODER : Okay
. S o we ' r e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 goin g t o mak e Augus t 15th . MR . DOMBROFF : That' s fine . JUDG E YODER : Augus t 1 5 i s you r submissio ndate .

An dthen , Mr . Lewerenz , you'1 1

nee da repl ydat e fo r th e brie f o n responsibilit yo r anythin g els e yo u wan t t o repl yto . MR . LEWERENZ : Yes . Probabl yte n day s fro m

whe nw e receiv e tha t briefing , I guess .

29 . JUDG E YODER : We'l l mak e i t Augus t

MR . LEWERENZ : Okay . JUDG E YODER : Ar e thos e rea l dates ? Augus t 1st , I assume dwa s a rea l date . Wha t i s that ?

MR . LEWERENZ : Yes , Augus t 1s t i s
a Monday . JUDG E YODER : Okay . S o thes e ar e al l Monda ydates . Okay ?

MR . LEWERENZ : Yes .

(202 ) 234^3 3 

### NEAL R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISUN D AVE.

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### 1

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Okay . Anythin g

further , gentlemen ?

MR . DOMBROFF : Nothing , Judge , fro mColgan .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . MR . LEWERENZ : Nothing , Judge . JUDG E YODER : Than k yo u ver ymuch . Tha t conclude s th e Prehearin g Conference . (Whereupon , th e above-entitle d matte r wen t of f th e recor da t 4:2 7 p.m. )

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### NEA L R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE. , N.W

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78:1 1 abl e30: 3 above-entitle d1:1 4 87:1 0 absen t S3:1 3 absolutel y7:2 2 18:1222: 223:1 3 33:1 3 46; 3 59: 5 63: 8 66: 473:2 0 accep t 62:2 1 acceptin g 60: 6 acces s 35: 2 accompanie d24:1 3 accoun t 44:1 2 accurate4l:1 0 accusation s 44:1 6 acquire d75:1 3 Ac t 65:10,1 5 actin g 18:8,2 229: 3 actio n18:4, 7 25: 2 action s 60:4. 7 84:20,2 1 activ e31:2 2 activit y62:2 2 act s 84:1 2 actua l25:1 438: 7 ad d56:1 5 74:1 7 additio n39: 9 additiona l17:1 9 27:1, 3 addres s 5.S:2

0 76:1 7 addresse d77: 2 addressing43:2 0 76:1 8 adequat e18:1 6 Administrativ e 1:2 274:1 8 Administrato r 27:12,1 4 adult s 20:1 637: 1 1 39:1 5 advcrb37:1 9 advis e74: 6 advise d12:1 7 AEA- 7 2: 4

affec t 81: 4 affidavit s 72: 3 affdiat e64:18,2 0 66:1 067: 4 affdiatc s 63:11,1 6 63:1 9 64:4,5,5,1 4 66: 9 67:17,18,1 8 67:1971:2,9,1 5 affirme d31:2 0 Agenc y25: 229:4. 6 Agcnt38: 5 ag o 29:1477:16,1 8 agre e22:2. 8 57: 7 71:4,8,9.11,1 7 74:3,1 4 agreeabl e83: 3 agreemen t

5: 9 agreement s 78:4, 5 ahea d17:1 3 ai r 1: 9 3: 5 16: 5 48: 8 62:13.1 6 66:1 9 70:2 1 72:2 1 aircraf t 12: 616:1 8 17:10,2 038:3,1 5 58:1 2 airlines2:1 9 12:1 3 65:3, 466:1 7 67: 6 68:8,16,1 7 70:4, 4 70:6,1675:1 3 76: 3 Airma n10:12,1 5 Airway s 17:20 60:1 4 AL J77:1 7 allegatio n68: 3 allegation s 22:1 9 allege d12:1 8 21: 7 22:1 7 33:2 1 allo w58:6,9,1 0 AMERIC A1: 1 Angstad t 11:1 2 12:5,6.1 9 13:1 4 13:1 414.6,12,1 4 14:1 9 15:1,1.1 9 24:2,9,1 9 26: 3 29:931:10,1 4 32:1035:1036:1 1

36:13,1637: 1 39:1440:1241: 3 42:1543: 8 48:1 8 58:5, 5 85:11,2 0 Angstadf s 14:1 7 15: 2 answe r 15: 7 18: 6 19:1 3 38: 8 40:1 3 46: 647:1 255: 5 59:1 1 61:1465:1 6 65:1966: 1 69:1 9 75: 9 76:16,2 2 77: 2 answcrs4:2 25: 2 55: 677: 3 anybod y4: 640: 5 anvwa v7:1 8 APA2S: 1 29: 5 apologizin g 79: 4 apparentl y6:8,1 1 13: 219:i641: 4 54:6,1 259: 1 appea r 59: 8 APPEARANCE S 2: 1 appeare d74:2 0 appreciat e35: 8 82: 2 Apri l36: 9 46:2 2 47: 3 archive d82:1 9 aske d39:1 465:1 4 85:1 4 assertin g 78:1 0 assistant s 11: 7 associate d31:1 5 42:1 3 assum e23:1 7 36:1 3 78:1 7 assume d78:16,2 0 86:1 6 assume s 59:1 9 assumptio n19:1 7 19:2 1 81: 1 attempt s 10:1 0 atten d26: 7 Attendan t 38: 7 Attendant' s 36:1 7 attentio n28: 8 attorney s 11: 8 74: 2 AT& T9: 7 Augus t 83:16,1 7 86:1,3,12,16.1 8 authorit y58:6,9.1 0 58:2 1 59: 271: 6 automaticall y3:1 2 Aviatio n2: 5 9: 3 avoi d28:1 8 awar e7:10.1 5 11:14,1 7 19:20 33:2 039:11.1 6 45:1448: 1 73:1 9 74:1 9 awfu l14: 2 B B36:1 7 back4:1 6 14:2 1 21:2 024:1729:2 1 32:7,1735: 5 40:1 1 42:945:1 6 48:2 257:1 9 58: 3 72:1 5 backdro p 40:1 5 44:1 0 badg e15:1 8 balanc e12:1 9 Bandavani s 25:2 2 34:9,1 1 35:1 5 40: 9 42: 243:1 4 44:1845:1346: 8 46:2 049:12.1 9 50: 5 51: 5 52:1 5 54: 7 61: 7 base d14:1 3 19:1 6 56: 663:2 2 basicall y22:1 8 64:1 2 basin g 52:19,2 2 basi s 19:2 1 23:1 1 56: 7 80:1 684: 7 85: 4 batter y79: 5 Pag e8 8

bea r 59:2 0 behalf2:2, 7 79:1 2 belatedl y3:2 1 believ e13:8, 9 24:12,1632:1 1 34:1 436:9,1 5 37:17,2 1 41:9,1 1 48:1 9 65: 666:1 2 66:2 275:1 2 believe d13:22 benefi t 20:1 0 bes t 8: 1 25:1 3 36:1 0 be t 68: 473:2 1 84: 1 beyon d75:1 4 Bibl e26: 6 Bill61: 9 Blinde r 28:15,2 0 28:2 230:18,19,2 0 bloc k 76:1 2 Boulevar d2:2 0 Branc h8:2 1 Bria n2:1 8 3: 9 34:1 5 66:1 7 brief71:1 9 84: 2 85: 3 86: 6 briefin g 62:2 0 86:1 0 brin g 28: 7 bringing42: l1 43: 444:1265:1 7 bring s 15:2231: 9 broadl y18:1 8 brough t 43: 6 BROW N32 3 buildin g 84:1 4 busines s 63:5,7,1 0 6 3 7 2 8 0 8 1 17,2 1 65:1 8 1 78:2,18,2 1 15,17,1881: 8 11,1 3 83:2 0 C3: l calculate d78:2 0 80:1 6 calculatin g 81: 2

Nea lR . Gros s &Co. , Inc .

202-234-443 3Pag e 8 9

calculatio n80:2 1 cal l8: 610:1 034:2 1 50:3, 6 53: 3 54:1 1 calle d13:5,1 3 32:1940:1 1 42: 6 44:2 047:3, 5 50:2 1 52:2,1 0 53: 7 55:1 1 callin g 29:2 059:1 3 calls9: 7 45: 446: 5 61:1 5 Canali a62:1 5 captai n9:1 412: 6 12:1 8 13:13,1 4 14:12.14,17.1 9 15:1,2.1 9 16:1 9 17:16,20,2 1 18: 4 18:7,19,2 024:2, 5 24: 8 32: 9 33: 3 35:1536:10,13,1 6 37: 1 38: 640:9,1 2 40:1641: 3 42:1 5 43: 8 44:1 646:2 0 48: 3 49:12,1 9 50: 5 51: 5 52:1 5 58: 660:5,8,1 5 74:1 3 captains42:1 4 48:1 5 captain' s 42: 1 62:2 2 captione d7:1 8 casell:ll,2 012:1 2 16:1 1 17:1. 5 22: 6 23:12,2 225:7,1 2 25:15,17,18,1 8 26:2.1527:10,1 1 27:1628:13,15,2 0 28:22,2 229:1,1 3 63:2 073:1 274: 5 74:1 1 77:15.1 8 78:1 1 80:2,8.1 1 80:18,2281:14,1 9 83:2 1 84: 5 case s 28:1 229: 8 30:1 5 74: 7 82: 7 categor y63:2 1 Catha y77:18,19,2 1

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Nea l R . Gros s 8

LCO. , Inc . 202-234-443 3Pag e 9 0

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Nea l R . Gros s & Co. , Inc .

202-234-443 3fact s 11:2 1 16:8,2 2

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Nea lR . Gros s &Co. , Inc .

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Nea l R . Gros s & Co. , Inc .

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Nea l R . Gros s & Co. , In c

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CERTIFICAT E

Thi s i s t o certif ytha t th e foregoin g transcrip t

I nth e matte r of : Colga nAir , Inc .

Before ; USDOT/FAA

Date : 07-13-1 1

Place : {telephon e conference )

wa s dul yrecorde dan daccuratel ytranscribe dunde ; m ydirection ; further , tha t sai dtranscrip t i s a tru e an daccurat e recor do f th e proceedings .

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