### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS FOR WALK-IN COOLERS AND FREEZERS** 

**+ + + + + PUBLIC MEETING** 

**+ + + + + WEDNESDAY**  **OCTOBER 9, 2013 + + + + +** **The Public Meeting met in Room 8E 089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.,**  **Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m, Doug Brookman, Meeting Facilitator, presiding.**  **PRESENT DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public**  **Solutions, Inc. ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy**  **JOSHUA COCCIARDI, Department of Energy JOHN CYMBALSKY, Department of Energy**  **MICHAEL KIDO, Department of Energy CHARLES LLENZA, Department of Energy**  **DOUG RAWALD, Department of Energy ALSO PRESENT**  **BRUCE ALKIRE, Honeywell CHRISTOPHER BOLDUC, Lawrence Berkeley**  **National Laboratory KATIE COUGHLIN, Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory ELLIS CRAIG, Craig Industries**  **LUKE CRAIG, Craig Industries LAURA DEGITZ, Navigant Consulting**  **KRISTIN GLADD, Ayres Law Group, representing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **Honeywell DAVID GRIFE, Arctic Industries**  **ANDREW HAALA, Hussmann ARMIN HAUER, ebm-papst, inc.**  **JOHN HURST, Lennox International RICK JONES, Imperial-Brown**  **JIM KINSER, Louisville Cooler Manufacturing Company**  **CHRISTOPHER LAU, Navigant Consulting REBECCA LEGETT, Navigant Consulting**  **JON LEMMOND, Air-Conditioning, Heating, & Refrigeration Institute**  **HARMON LEWIS, American Panel PAUL LIN, Regal-Beloit Corporation**  **ARIS MARANTAN, Navigant Consulting JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness**  **Project ANNIE MCCARTHY, SmithBucklin Corporation**  **CHARLIE MCCRUDDEN, Air Conditioning Contractors of America**  **JON MCHUGH, McHugh Energy Consultants JOHNATHAN MELCHI, Heating, Air-conditioning &**  **Refrigeration Distributors International FRED MINELLI, Hillphoenix Walk-Ins**  **DEAN PETERSON, Heat Transfer Products Group MICHAEL RIVEST, Navigant Consulting**  **GREG ROSENQUIST, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory**  **HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an Energy Efficient Environment**  **WAYNE SCHAEFFER, Hussmann Corporation GUY SENTER, Bally Refrigerated Boxes, Inc.**  **ROB SHEBIK, Hussman Corporation WARREN STEIN, Intertek**  **CHARLIE STEPHENS, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance**  **MIKE STRAUB, Heatcraft Refrigeration Products, LLC**  **RICHARD WEEKLEY, Heat Transfer Products Group ROBERT WILKINS, The Danfoss Group** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3**  **TABLE OF CONTENTS Welcome and Introductions, Opening**  **Remarks, Doug Brookman 4 Overview, Scope, Test Procedure,**  **Charles Llenza 36 Market and Technology Assessment and**  **Screening Analysis, Laura Degitz 90 Engineering Analysis, Rebecca Legett 117**  **Markups Analysis; Energy Use Analysis, 175 Katie Coughlin**  **Life-Cycle Costs and Payback Period 225 Analysis, Katie Coughlin**  **Shipments Analysis and National Impact 285 Analysis, Katie Coughlin**  **Manufacturer Impact Analysis, 324 Christopher Lau**  **NOPR Analyses, Katie Coughlin 344 Proposed Standard, Rebecca Legett 356**  **Closing Remarks, Charles Llenza 394 Adjourn** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **9:04 A.M.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Good morning,** 

### 4 **everyone and welcome. This is the U.S.** 

### 5 **Department of Energy's public meeting on** 

### 6 **Energy Conservation Standards for Walk-In** 

### 7 **Coolers and Freezers.** 

### 8 **Today, is Wednesday, October 9,** 

### 9 **2013, here in the Forrestal Building in** 

### 10 **Washington, D.C. I'm so glad you could join** 

### 11 **us this morning. We're going to start off** 

### 12 **this morning with welcoming remarks from John** 

### 13 **Cymbalsky.** 

### 14 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you, Doug.** 

### 15 **This is John Cymbalsky from DOE. I just want** 

### 16 **to read this brief statement from the** 

### 17 **Department just in case these questions come** 

### 18 **up.** 

### 19 **Due to the nature of DOE** 

### 20 **appropriations, the Department will be able** 

### 21 **to operate for a short period of time after** 

### 22 **the September 30th end of fiscal year.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 However, if the resolution is not achieved in**  

### 2 **the near term, the Department will be forced** 

### 3 **to take further action to shut down non** 

### 4 **accepted operations resulting in employee and** 

### 5 **contractor furloughs. We haven't got there** 

### 6 **yet. For more information, please contact** 

### 7 **DOE Public Affairs and I can give anyone the** 

### 8 **phone number who would like to do that.** 

### 9 **And so with that I'd like to welcome** 

### 10 **everybody to probably our last public meeting** 

### 11 **for a little while until things get sorted** 

### 12 **out and thanks again for coming and bearing** 

### 13 **with us through this uncertain time. Thank** 

### 14 **you.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 16 **We always start with introductions. I'm** 

### 17 **going to start to my immediate left. You can** 

### 18 **get used to turning these microphones both on** 

### 19 **and off. Please say your name and** 

### 20 **organizational affiliation.** 

### 21 **MR. CRAIG: I'm Ellis Craig,** 

### 22 **President of Craig Industries and U.S.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 Cooler.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 3 **MR. CRAIG: Luke Craig, Vice** 

### 4 **President of Marketing and Sales, U.S.** 

### 5 **Cooler.** 

### 6 **MR. KINSER: Jim Kinser, President** 

### 7 **and owner of Louisville Cooler Manufacturing** 

### 8 **Company.** 

### 9 **MR. JONES: Rick Jones, Technical** 

### 10 **Services Manager for Imperial-Brown Walk-In** 

### 11 **Coolers.** 

### 12 **MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis, Executive** 

### 13 **Vice President of American Panel.** 

### 14 **MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli, Director** 

### 15 **of Engineering, Hillphoenix Walk-Ins.** 

### 16 **MR. SCHAEFFER: Buzz Schaeffer,** 

### 17 **Principal Engineer, Hussman Corporation.** 

### 18 **MR. LEMMOND: John Lemmond,** 

### 19 **Regulatory Engineer, AHRI.** 

### 20 **MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub, Director** 

### 21 **of Systems Engineering, Heatcraft** 

### 22 **Refrigeration.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens,**  

### 2 **Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance.** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, American** 

### 4 **Council for an Energy Efficient Economy.** 

### 5 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,** 

### 6 **Danfoss.** 

### 7 **MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi with HARDI.** 

### 8 **MR. PETERSON: Dean Peterson, Heat** 

### 9 **Transfer Products Group.** 

### 10 **MR. GRIFE: David Grife, Arctic** 

### 11 **Industries.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That didn't** 

### 13 **turn on, but it will.** 

### 14 **MR. KIDO: Michael Kido, Office of** 

### 15 **the General Counsel, DOE.** 

### 16 **MR. RAWALD: Doug Rawald, Office of** 

### 17 **the General Counsel, Department of Energy.** 

### 18 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 19 **Appliance Standards Program at DOE.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Can we move** 

### 21 **over here to the side? Katie, please stand** 

### 22 **and introduce yourself.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin,**  

### 2 **Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory.** 

### 3 **MR. BOLDUC: Chris Bolduc, Lawrence** 

### 4 **Berkeley National Lab.** 

### 5 **MS. DEGITZ: Laura Degitz, Navigant** 

### 6 **Consulting.** 

### 7 **MS. LEGETT: Rebecca Legett,** 

### 8 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 9 **MR. LAU: Chris Lau, Navigant** 

### 10 **Consulting.** 

### 11 **MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza,** 

### 12 **Department of Energy.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: As a matter** 

### 14 **of courtesy, everyone introduces him or** 

### 15 **herself.** 

### 16 **MR. HURST: John Hurst, Lennox** 

### 17 **International.** 

### 18 **MR. McHUGH: Jon McHugh, McHugh** 

### 19 **Energy.** 

### 20 **MR. HAALA: Andrew Haala, Hussman** 

### 21 **Corporation.** 

### 22 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Maurer, Appliance**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 Standards Awareness Project.**  

### 2 **MR. WEEKLEY: Rich Weekley, HTPG.** 

### 3 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden,** 

### 4 **Air Conditioning Contractors of America** 

### 5 **MR. LIN: Paul Lin, Regal-Beloit** 

### 6 **Corporation.** 

### 7 **MR. COCCIARDI: Josh Cocciardi,** 

### 8 **Compliance Energy Department.** 

### 9 **MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist,** 

### 10 **Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 11 **MR. MARANTAN: Aris Marantan,** 

### 12 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 13 **MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant** 

### 14 **Consulting.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, welcome** 

### 16 **to all of you and thanks for coming in the** 

### 17 **midst of the uncertainty here in Washington,** 

### 18 **D.C. I'm going to do a very brief agenda** 

### 19 **review. All of you received a packet of** 

### 20 **information as you came in. Immediately** 

### 21 **following this agenda review, there's an** 

### 22 **opportunity, for anyone that wishes to, to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 make brief summary remarks here at the**  

### 2 **outset. Brief, summary remarks here at the** 

### 3 **outset about issues of concern to you.** 

### 4 **Immediately following that, we're** 

### 5 **going to hear about overview, scope, and test** 

### 6 **procedure and then following on directly,** 

### 7 **marketing and technology assessment and** 

### 8 **screening analysis and then engineering** 

### 9 **analysis. We'll take a break mid-morning,** 

### 10 **round about 10:30, 10:45 or so. Markups** 

### 11 **analysis, energy use analysis following the** 

### 12 **break and then continuing on, life-cycle** 

### 13 **costs and payback period analysis. Following** 

### 14 **that shipments analysis, national impact** 

### 15 **analysis. We'll take lunch round about noon** 

### 16 **or so and then returning from lunch** 

### 17 **manufacturer impact analysis, NOPR analyses.** 

### 18 **We'll break mid-afternoon as needed around** 

### 19 **about two and then following that, the** 

### 20 **proposed standard and closing remarks as we** 

### 21 **get there, 2:45, 3'ish this afternoon.** 

### 22 **At the end of the day, yet another**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 opportunity for you to cover any content that**  

### 2 **you don't think has been covered sufficiently** 

### 3 **so far. Okay? So you get two chances in** 

### 4 **addition to the content in this PowerPoint** 

### 5 **packet to cover what's important to you.** 

### 6 **Those of you that are joining us via** 

### 7 **the web, welcome. The Department of Energy** 

### 8 **is trying hard to make these meetings very** 

### 9 **accessible via the web. I would ask at this** 

### 10 **point, please mute your telephones. So far** 

### 11 **we're not receiving any feedback in the room.** 

### 12 **That's a good sign. And if you wish to** 

### 13 **participate, if you wish to speak during the** 

### 14 **course of the meeting, ask questions or offer** 

### 15 **our comment, raise your hand and our web** 

### 16 **master will insert you into the conversation** 

### 17 **or you can write a comment and she'll hand** 

### 18 **the comment to me.** 

### 19 **The purpose of this public meeting** 

### 20 **is to invite comment on proposed energy** 

### 21 **efficiency levels, present methodologies that** 

### 22 **characterize results, to discuss specific**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 issues related to each analysis and seek**  

### 2 **input from interested parties on** 

### 3 **methodologies, assumptions, data sources, and** 

### 4 **results from the analyses, to describe next** 

### 5 **steps of the rulemaking as well. Comments** 

### 6 **from participants are invited and to provide** 

### 7 **similar comments or statements and raise** 

### 8 **additional issues for discussion, the** 

### 9 **Department of Energy would like very much to** 

### 10 **have all of that in writing. And the NOPR** 

### 11 **comment period closes, as you see in your** 

### 12 **slide on page 5, November 12, 2013.** 

### 13 **As we go along in this PowerPoint** 

### 14 **presentation packet, you will note that the** 

### 15 **specific issues that the Department of Energy** 

### 16 **wishes you to comment on are called out in** 

### 17 **these issue boxes and you also note that** 

### 18 **second bullet, a list of issues that are in** 

### 19 **the NOPR notice are available at that web** 

### 20 **address there.** 

### 21 **Once again, the deadline for submitting** 

### 22 **comments is November 12, 2013.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 Finally, on page 7 of your**  

### 2 **PowerPoint slides, these are the details** 

### 3 **about how you submit written comments to the** 

### 4 **Department. It's kind of important that you** 

### 5 **do this according to Hoyle. So all your** 

### 6 **comments land in the right spot. So please** 

### 7 **observe the content that's here and you can** 

### 8 **do it via email. You can do it postal. You** 

### 9 **can do it courier. And you can see addressed** 

### 10 **to Brenda Edwards and the detailed** 

### 11 **information that's there.** 

### 12 **Finally, I would ask your** 

### 13 **consideration. Many of you are very familiar** 

### 14 **with these meetings. Some of you are new, I** 

### 15 **believe. I'd ask for your consideration.** 

### 16 **Please speak one at a time. Please say your** 

### 17 **name for the record each time you speak. You** 

### 18 **don't need to say your organizational** 

### 19 **affiliation unless you wish to. If you keep** 

### 20 **the focus here, turn your cell phones or** 

### 21 **other media on silent and limit sidebar** 

### 22 **conversations. We'll need to turn these**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 microphones on and off. We've already gotten**  

### 2 **kind of used to that. I'm going to be** 

### 3 **queuing individuals by name as best I can to** 

### 4 **speak.** 

### 5 **I also wish to encourage follow-on** 

### 6 **comment, the back and forth between** 

### 7 **individuals is sometimes very helpful to the** 

### 8 **Department. And web participants, once** 

### 9 **again, we welcome you into this conversation.** 

### 10 **Mute your phones and raise your hand if you** 

### 11 **wish to participate.** 

### 12 **So I think that's all the** 

### 13 **preliminary stuff. And now I'd like to** 

### 14 **invite any individual that wishes to to make** 

### 15 **an opening statement, opening remarks.** 

### 16 **Joanna Mauer.** 

### 17 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. First, we** 

### 18 **want to acknowledge the significant effort** 

### 19 **that DOE has made in this rulemaking to** 

### 20 **develop a workable framework for standards** 

### 21 **for walk-in coolers and freezers which have** 

### 22 **the potential to achieve very large energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 savings.**  

### 2 **We also want to acknowledge the** 

### 3 **significant work that was put into refining** 

### 4 **the analysis since the preliminary technical** 

### 5 **support document was issued.** 

### 6 **We believe that DOE has proposed** 

### 7 **strong efficiency levels. However, we urge** 

### 8 **DOE to consider a modified trial standard** 

### 9 **level which we'll call TSL 4.5 which would** 

### 10 **deliver even greater cost effective energy** 

### 11 **savings than the levels proposed in the NOPR.** 

### 12 **This modified trial standard level** 

### 13 **would combine TSL 4 levels for the envelope** 

### 14 **components with TSL 5 levels for** 

### 15 **refrigeration systems. While the TSL 4** 

### 16 **levels generally seem to be appropriate for** 

### 17 **envelope components, based on DOE's analysis,** 

### 18 **TSL 5 levels for refrigeration systems are** 

### 19 **very cost effective.** 

### 20 **In addition, we encourage DOE to** 

### 21 **reevaluate how design options are combined** 

### 22 **for display doors. It appears as though in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 the case of medium temperature display doors,**  

### 2 **for example, four design options, lighting** 

### 3 **sensors, film layers, soft low-e coating, and** 

### 4 **krypton fill were incorporated in the max.** 

### 5 **tech TSL as a package, while none of these** 

### 6 **individual design options appear at lower** 

### 7 **trial standard levels.** 

### 8 **We would expect lighting sensors,** 

### 9 **for example, to be a very cost effective** 

### 10 **design option that would be incorporated in** 

### 11 **other trial standard levels including TSL 4.** 

### 12 **We hope to better understand why some of** 

### 13 **these display door design options were not** 

### 14 **incorporated at levels below max. tech. It** 

### 15 **seems that evaluating these display door** 

### 16 **design options separately may increase the** 

### 17 **envelope savings at TSL 4.** 

### 18 **Regarding the framework for** 

### 19 **standards, we agree that setting component** 

### 20 **standards for panels and doors makes sense.** 

### 21 **This should alleviate concerns that we and** 

### 22 **others raised earlier in this rulemaking**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 regarding certification and enforcement of**  

### 2 **envelope components. However, we still have** 

### 3 **certification and enforcement concerns on the** 

### 4 **refrigeration system side.** 

### 5 **Specifically, our understanding is** 

### 6 **that for dedicated remote condensing systems,** 

### 7 **in many cases the condensing unit and unit** 

### 8 **cooler may be supplied by different** 

### 9 **manufacturers. A workable framework for** 

### 10 **certification and enforcement for** 

### 11 **refrigeration systems is especially important** 

### 12 **since DOE estimates that more than 75 percent** 

### 13 **of the potential savings in this rulemaking** 

### 14 **would come from improved refrigeration system** 

### 15 **efficiency.** 

### 16 **We hope to learn more today about** 

### 17 **DOE's thinking regarding how certification** 

### 18 **and enforcement would work for dedicated** 

### 19 **remote condensing refrigeration systems.** 

### 20 **We thank DOE for the opportunity to** 

### 21 **participate in today's public meeting and we** 

### 22 **look forward to the discussion. Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.**  

### 2 **Other comments here at the outset.** 

### 3 **Ellis?** 

### 4 **MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig, Craig** 

### 5 **Industries, U.S. Cooler. First of all, we** 

### 6 **want to thank the DOE for allowing us to have** 

### 7 **this opportunity to comment on what we're** 

### 8 **doing which is a big shift in our industry.** 

### 9 **We have not been regulated and now we are, so** 

### 10 **it makes a big change for a lot of us small** 

### 11 **businesses.** 

### 12 **I have two points I want to bring** 

### 13 **up. One is that consistently through the** 

### 14 **document we see that the DOE comments that** 

### 15 **small businesses may be disproportionately** 

### 16 **impacted by this regulation which is of great** 

### 17 **concern to us since about 80 percent of the** 

### 18 **people in this industry are small businesses.** 

### 19 **It takes 750 or less to be a small business,** 

### 20 **so this is a very big concern for us. And we** 

### 21 **see that it's acknowledged, but we don't see** 

### 22 **where that impact has really been taken into**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 consideration of how bad it's going to affect**  

### 2 **these small businesses and how many of them** 

### 3 **are going to be put out of business and how** 

### 4 **many of them are going to be -- how many will** 

### 5 **be left. That's a real concern to us.** 

### 6 **And number two is there's an item in** 

### 7 **the document that says that the cost of the** 

### 8 **panel square footage is .25 cents or 25** 

### 9 **cents. We don't know if that was used in** 

### 10 **calculation, in coming to conclusions about** 

### 11 **which level of efficiency we were selecting,** 

### 12 **but if it was, that's a very wrong number.** 

### 13 **It's really concerning to us because** 

### 14 **you can't buy a candy bar for 25 cents. You** 

### 15 **can't build a panel for anywhere close to** 

### 16 **that, 20 times more would be more realistic.** 

### 17 **So one of our concerns is if that was used,** 

### 18 **that will change the impact it will have on a** 

### 19 **small restaurant, small businesses, even a** 

### 20 **lot of the calculations that were used in** 

### 21 **walk-in coolers. So that's a clarification** 

### 22 **that you would like to see.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 Other than that, there are several**  

### 2 **questions we have about it, but we'll** 

### 3 **hopefully address that once we're going** 

### 4 **through this document.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 6 **That's helpful. Yes.** 

### 7 **Harmon.** 

### 8 **MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis, American** 

### 9 **Panel. Page 57 of 203 where I printed it** 

### 10 **out, the American Panel, me, is attributed to** 

### 11 **that cost per square foot of panel was too** 

### 12 **high. Actual costs were closer to 25 cents.** 

### 13 **I never said that.** 

### 14 **In my written comments, what I did** 

### 15 **say was related, that a $100 strip curtain** 

### 16 **used on a 400 square foot walk-in was a cost** 

### 17 **of 25 cents per square foot and a strip** 

### 18 **curtain would be a good energy saver on air** 

### 19 **infiltration. That cost per square foot, I'm** 

### 20 **not going to tell you my cost. I'll tell you** 

### 21 **my selling -- we don't even want to tell you** 

### 22 **either one, but it's much more than both of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 those, as Ellis says, about 20 times.**  

### 2 **We're a small manufacturer, third** 

### 3 **generation family owned, privately held.** 

### 4 **Most of the companies in this industry are** 

### 5 **small. Again, you acknowledge we're going to** 

### 6 **be impacted, but when you're spreading those** 

### 7 **significant equipment costs in buildings,** 

### 8 **it's just not going to be a fair situation.** 

### 9 **Another thing in the document,** 

### 10 **there's 2 million annual sales in units of** 

### 11 **walk-in coolers and that number is probably** 

### 12 **off by 100 times. I don't know where that** 

### 13 **came from, whoever put that number in the** 

### 14 **chart to explain it to all of us because I** 

### 15 **think all the companies that are here, we** 

### 16 **can't build two million.** 

### 17 **On page 191 of the document, it** 

### 18 **assumed the baseline was wood framing was** 

### 19 **kind of standard in the industry and that's** 

### 20 **probably less than 15 percent of the** 

### 21 **manufacturers. So I'm not sure, like Ellis,** 

### 22 **where you went from that starting point, but**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 that's not a correct starting point if you're**  

### 2 **trying to represent what happens in the** 

### 3 **industry.** 

### 4 **We're also concerned with the reams** 

### 5 **and reams, what we're saving in oil, we're** 

### 6 **killing in trees, plus I don't know how small** 

### 7 **manufacturers, we're 200 employees. If I put** 

### 8 **every employee on one page, it would be to** 

### 9 **Christmas until they knew that the stuff was** 

### 10 **right. I appreciate all the data, but we're** 

### 11 **going to need to know what formulas were,** 

### 12 **etcetera, to have an idea if any of it holds** 

### 13 **water in the real world. There's a lot in** 

### 14 **the scientific and whatever, but what you** 

### 15 **learn in school isn't necessarily what** 

### 16 **happens in the real world when people operate** 

### 17 **walk-in coolers and freezers.** 

### 18 **Again, I appreciate the opportunity** 

### 19 **to be here and appreciate all that you all** 

### 20 **have done.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 22 **Harmon. Other comments here at the outset?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 Yes, please, Jim.**  

### 2 **MR. KINSER: Jim Kinser of** 

### 3 **Louisville Cooler Manufacturing Company.** 

### 4 **I was wondering if the DOE had** 

### 5 **considered a cost share to help smaller** 

### 6 **businesses do some of this testing. I know** 

### 7 **you're going to spend money on enforcement.** 

### 8 **I'd rather see you spend that money helping** 

### 9 **small businesses like my friends here said** 

### 10 **that the bulk of the manufacturers in this** 

### 11 **industry are my guess less than 50 employees,** 

### 12 **not 750. And the impact on us is going to be** 

### 13 **dramatic. In fact, you even state in here** 

### 14 **that you expect some businesses to close up** 

### 15 **or be forced to partner up with other** 

### 16 **businesses.** 

### 17 **I don't know if this is the right** 

### 18 **time to ask, but I think we all know that the** 

### 19 **Department of Agriculture has cost share for** 

### 20 **farmers and tree planting and things like** 

### 21 **that. I would like the DOE to consider a** 

### 22 **cost share to help small manufacturers meet**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 the requirements that you may come up with.**  

### 2 **That's all.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 4 **you. Additional comments here at the outset?** 

### 5 **Yes, Jon, you have some slides?** 

### 6 **MR. McHUGH: Yes.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Can you cue** 

### 8 **his slides? Thank you, Emily.** 

### 9 **Jon McHugh.** 

### 10 **MR. McHUGH: Hi, I'm Jon McHugh.** 

### 11 **And I'm supporting the California IOUs here** 

### 12 **today.** 

### 13 **The question is can we change the** 

### 14 **global environment? I think that you can see** 

### 15 **that we have, just whether you're looking** 

### 16 **from a satellite or you're looking at the** 

### 17 **amount of CO2 in the air. We've had a** 

### 18 **substantial change in the short term. And** 

### 19 **I'm happy to be a member of the American** 

### 20 **Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air** 

### 21 **Conditioning Engineers because this is one** 

### 22 **technical organization that has addressed**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 global problems in our industry. And if you**  

### 2 **look at it, we've actually turned the corner** 

### 3 **in terms of ozone depletion and certainly** 

### 4 **there's other things we can as well in terms** 

### 5 **of energy consumption and greenhouse gas** 

### 6 **emissions.** 

### 7 **This graph here on the X axis or on** 

### 8 **the efficiency axis is the life-cycle cost of** 

### 9 **measures that reduce carbon emissions. And** 

### 10 **if you look at all of these elements that are** 

### 11 **on the left side of the graph, these are all** 

### 12 **things that have a net life-cycle savings and** 

### 13 **as a result increase the wealth of the** 

### 14 **nation. If you look at the things that are** 

### 15 **basically after the fact and carbon** 

### 16 **sequestration and things like that on the** 

### 17 **energy supply side, those things actually** 

### 18 **increase the cost of energy and as a result** 

### 19 **this really sort of raises the question about** 

### 20 **it, is there a no regrets path of at least** 

### 21 **trying to save energy through energy** 

### 22 **efficiency and increase the wealth of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 country.**  

### 2 **So these are the refrigeration** 

### 3 **measures that DOE is looking at and the items** 

### 4 **that are highlighted in red are the items** 

### 5 **that are in the TSL 5. And as we heard** 

### 6 **Joanna talk about earlier, perhaps it makes** 

### 7 **sense to also look at these measures that are** 

### 8 **in TSL 5. They seem to be things that folks** 

### 9 **are using and are cost effective and** 

### 10 **hopefully we'll have a good discussion about** 

### 11 **that today. This is just sort of where you** 

### 12 **would find that in that huge document.** 

### 13 **Here's the economic summary of TSL 4** 

### 14 **versus TSL 5. And what you can see is that** 

### 15 **where the simple paybacks have changed going** 

### 16 **from TSL 5 of where there actually is a** 

### 17 **change, the longest simple payback is a four** 

### 18 **year simple payback of the measures that they** 

### 19 **looked at for TSL 5 with most of the rest of** 

### 20 **them being right around simple payback of 3.** 

### 21 **If you look at this from the actual** 

### 22 **-- your end users -- so people who are buying**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 your walk-ins, if you look at a five-year**  

### 2 **period of analysis, if you look at most of** 

### 3 **those measures which TSL 5 measures which** 

### 4 **have a simple payback of around 3 years,** 

### 5 **we're looking at 17 percent rate of return** 

### 6 **which I wish I could get that on money that I** 

### 7 **have invested. And if you look at the longer** 

### 8 **time period, you're looking at 20 to 30** 

### 9 **percent rate of return, not a bad investment.** 

### 10 **And hopefully, when you're selling your new** 

### 11 **products to customers, that's actually part** 

### 12 **of the marketing.** 

### 13 **If you look at the share prices of** 

### 14 **your customers over the long term, this is** 

### 15 **over the last ten years, I'm showing a** 

### 16 **variety of different end users, whether** 

### 17 **they're supermarkets or restaurants. You can** 

### 18 **see that, in general, the rate of return for** 

### 19 **those investments are less than the rate of** 

### 20 **return or savings that you would get from the** 

### 21 **measures in TSL 5.** 

### 22 **In terms of insulation panel**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 options, we're looking at what DOE has**  

### 2 **proposed I think is fairly modest. For** 

### 3 **display doors, as Joanna was talking about** 

### 4 **earlier, as you see in the red, again, we've** 

### 5 **put all of these measures together, occupant** 

### 6 **sensing, soft coat low-e, those have been** 

### 7 **combined with basically a four-layer door** 

### 8 **which has two layers of glass and two layers** 

### 9 **of suspended films and really sort of raises** 

### 10 **the question about in terms of looking at the** 

### 11 **analysis of separating that and looking at** 

### 12 **those independently.** 

### 13 **Occupancy sensing, one of the** 

### 14 **organizations that I support is Southern** 

### 15 **California Edison. We believe that their** 

### 16 **analysis was used from one store as sort of** 

### 17 **the basis for the two and a half hours.** 

### 18 **There's also -- there's a range of different** 

### 19 **applications and here's a similar application** 

### 20 **with twice the savings or one and a half** 

### 21 **times the savings from SMUD and would result** 

### 22 **in essentially seven full load hours per day**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 of reduced energy consumption instead of the**  

### 2 **two and a half. That SMUD, at that SMUD** 

### 3 **building, or at the store, this is a rating,** 

### 4 **the savings is about $150 per year for three,** 

### 5 **five-door cases.** 

### 6 **The desirable outcomes of the rule** 

### 7 **that we can actually like other appliance** 

### 8 **standards that they're enforced at the level** 

### 9 **of the dozens of manufacturers and the tens** 

### 10 **of thousands of contractors that this is a** 

### 11 **very competitive market where people are able** 

### 12 **to mix and match products and are able to** 

### 13 **optimize both energy efficiency and the cost** 

### 14 **of their product. That restraint of trade is** 

### 15 **minimized, that the burdens that are placed** 

### 16 **on industry don't result in a situation where** 

### 17 **markets are reduced and that -- especially if** 

### 18 **you look at how some of the testing** 

### 19 **requirements are. That sort of encourages** 

### 20 **vertically-integrated businesses and I think** 

### 21 **is somewhat discriminatory towards businesses** 

### 22 **that make components.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 That performance information is**  

### 2 **accurate and that there are certified** 

### 3 **ratings. And in terms of enforceability, I** 

### 4 **think we've actually made great progress from** 

### 5 **where we started out at which was a single** 

### 6 **performance standard and we now essentially** 

### 7 **have three component performance standards** 

### 8 **for the three components listed above. And** 

### 9 **this -- from an enforceability point of view,** 

### 10 **I think the standard would be more** 

### 11 **enforceable if the refrigeration side of** 

### 12 **things with -- if the format was more like** 

### 13 **AHRI 1200. The test burden would be less and** 

### 14 **the enforceability would be greater because,** 

### 15 **especially on the condensing unit side, you** 

### 16 **basically could enforce that at the level of** 

### 17 **the catalog rather than all the various** 

### 18 **combinations of products.** 

### 19 **And I think that there's a variety** 

### 20 **of enforcement questions that hopefully we're** 

### 21 **going to hear about today in terms of when** 

### 22 **you define the contractors, the manufacturer,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 what is going to occur in terms of that**  

### 2 **manufacturer? Is there any sort of** 

### 3 **certification of the manufacturer? Is there** 

### 4 **any required training? What is the process** 

### 5 **of submitting documentation from that quote** 

### 6 **unquote manufacturer to DOE and I won't go** 

### 7 **through the rest of the questions, but I** 

### 8 **think you all can read faster than I can** 

### 9 **talk. But hopefully, we'll discuss those** 

### 10 **today.** 

### 11 **Thank you very much.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 13 **Jon.** 

### 14 **Robert.** 

### 15 **MR. WILKINS: Thank you, Robert** 

### 16 **Wilkins, Danfoss. I'd like to start by** 

### 17 **applauding the work that DOE has done and its** 

### 18 **consultants have done here. This is a** 

### 19 **challenging issue to address, but one in** 

### 20 **which efficiency improvements can certainly** 

### 21 **be accomplished.** 

### 22 **As Jon has described, walk-ins are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 built up in the field. There really is no**  

### 2 **manufacturer in the traditional sense except** 

### 3 **maybe the contractor from components.** 

### 4 **However, many of the components that DOE and** 

### 5 **the consultants have identified are really** 

### 6 **composites of other components and** 

### 7 **subcomponents that are available in the** 

### 8 **marketplace.** 

### 9 **As you know, the contractor walks** 

### 10 **into a wholesaler. He buys -- he probably** 

### 11 **may say I want a refrigeration system, but** 

### 12 **he's more likely to say I want a unit cooler.** 

### 13 **I want a compressor. Okay, I need the cover** 

### 14 **to go on that unit because it's either going** 

### 15 **to go outside or not. I need some valves. I** 

### 16 **need a pressure control. I need a catalog of** 

### 17 **items and subcomponents.** 

### 18 **So I'm interested to see how DOE is** 

### 19 **solving -- I'm not objecting to it at this** 

### 20 **point, but interested to see how DOE will** 

### 21 **solve that problem and regulate that system** 

### 22 **that's really not a system. It's just a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 collection of components.**  

### 2 **Also, the component approach, we** 

### 3 **believe, ignores system level efficiency** 

### 4 **improvement opportunities. Electronic** 

### 5 **controls are rapidly advancing and offer** 

### 6 **excellent opportunities to control system** 

### 7 **level efficiency, but if the system is not** 

### 8 **regulated, then those opportunities are** 

### 9 **missed in this analysis. So we've got** 

### 10 **concerns about the complexity and regulatory** 

### 11 **burden in overlooking system level efficiency** 

### 12 **components. As I mentioned, I'm not filing** 

### 13 **an objection at this point. I want to listen** 

### 14 **carefully and learn how DOE has addressed** 

### 15 **these issues and hopefully the group around** 

### 16 **the table can help contribute to finding some** 

### 17 **solutions to these issues. So thank you for** 

### 18 **the opportunity to comment.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 20 **Harvey Sachs.** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 22 **For those who are not immersed in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 regulatory structures of the California**  

### 2 **system, I'd just like to offer a couple of** 

### 3 **translations on Mr. McHugh's comments. An** 

### 4 **IOU is an Investor-Owned Utility. SMUD** 

### 5 **refers to the Sacramental Municipal Utility** 

### 6 **District. All of these entities are doing a** 

### 7 **great deal of research on how energy is** 

### 8 **actually used in the field because they now** 

### 9 **have incentives to make more money by selling** 

### 10 **less electricity. Thank you.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 12 **Yes?** 

### 13 **MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 15 **Fred.** 

### 16 **MR. MINELLI: It's interesting in** 

### 17 **Jon's presentation how quickly he went over** 

### 18 **the panel portion of the components because** 

### 19 **the panels themselves do not consume energy.** 

### 20 **They're simply an R-value. That's all that** 

### 21 **we can bring to the component part of the** 

### 22 **walk-in is R-value. DOE is now asking for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 manufacturers, and this goes back to the cost**  

### 2 **to small manufacturers, asking manufacturers** 

### 3 **to conduct new testing. The ASTM C 1363 is** 

### 4 **one.** 

### 5 **There are only two labs in the** 

### 6 **United States that are qualified to do that** 

### 7 **test and I have found no test labs qualified** 

### 8 **to do the long term European standard for** 

### 9 **testing. So it's just difficult to** 

### 10 **understand the additional cost, the** 

### 11 **additional testing when all we're really** 

### 12 **providing in a panel component is R-value so** 

### 13 **that if there's some number that we would** 

### 14 **rather have than R-25 and R-32, let's simply** 

### 15 **raise the minimum R-value and leave the** 

### 16 **testing back to the ASTM C 518.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 18 **MR. MINELLI: Thank you.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional** 

### 20 **comments here before we launch into the more** 

### 21 **detailed content? Okay, then let's proceed.** 

### 22 **Charles Llenza.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 MR. LLENZA: Okay, we're going to go**  

### 2 **through the overview, scope, test procedures** 

### 3 **and the metrics.** 

### 4 **So the Department of Energy bases** 

### 5 **its analysis for this rulemaking on the EPCA** 

### 6 **Factors, the seven factors. We are directed** 

### 7 **by 42 U.S.C. 6295(o)(2)(B)(i) to consider** 

### 8 **seven factors in setting energy conservation** 

### 9 **standards. These factors map out to the DOE** 

### 10 **analysis as you see in the slide. The** 

### 11 **current standards walk-in cooler freezers** 

### 12 **means -- the way we define walk-in cooler** 

### 13 **freezer is an enclosed storage space** 

### 14 **refrigerated to temperatures respectively at** 

### 15 **or below 55 degrees Fahrenheit and above 32** 

### 16 **degrees Fahrenheit, and at or below 32** 

### 17 **degrees Fahrenheit, that can be walked into** 

### 18 **and has a total chilled storage area of less** 

### 19 **than 3,000 square feet. Products designed** 

### 20 **and marketed exclusively for medical and** 

### 21 **scientific and research purposes are** 

### 22 **excluded.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 EISA 2007 established the current**  

### 2 **energy conservation standards as of January** 

### 3 **1, 2009. And the current standards are** 

### 4 **prescriptive standards that require certain** 

### 5 **components or characteristics for walk-in** 

### 6 **coolers, freezers, and the examples are here,** 

### 7 **wall ceiling and door insulation of at least** 

### 8 **R-25 for coolers and R-32 for freezers,** 

### 9 **electronically commutated motors for** 

### 10 **evaporator fan motors of under 1 horsepower** 

### 11 **or less than 460 volts, certain anti-sweat** 

### 12 **heater requirements and others, all current** 

### 13 **standards can be found at 10 CFR 431.306.** 

### 14 **Test Procedures. DOE test** 

### 15 **procedures are used to certify for compliance** 

### 16 **with the standards. For certifying** 

### 17 **compliance with current prescriptive** 

### 18 **standards for R-value panels foam shall be** 

### 19 **tested using ASTM C518-04. For certifying** 

### 20 **compliance with the standards in the proposed** 

### 21 **NOPR, the U-factor, we're testing for the U** 

### 22 **factor, conduction load and energy use of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 panels are determined by conducting the test**  

### 2 **procedure in Appendix A, Subpart R of 10 CFR** 

### 3 **431, sections 4.1-4.3.** 

### 4 **The energy use of the doors is** 

### 5 **determined by conducting the test procedures** 

### 6 **in Appendix A to Subpart R of 10 CFR 431,** 

### 7 **sections 4.4-4.5. And the Annual Walk-in** 

### 8 **Energy Factor for the walk-in cooler’s or** 

### 9 **freezer’s refrigeration system is determined** 

### 10 **by conducting the test procedure set forth in** 

### 11 **AHRI 1250 and the 2009 Standard for** 

### 12 **Performance Rating of Walk-in Coolers and** 

### 13 **Freezers. All current DOE test procedures** 

### 14 **for the walk-in cooler and freezers can be** 

### 15 **found at 10 CFR 431.304.** 

### 16 **The Scope of Coverage and Component** 

### 17 **Level Standards. DOE is proposing to set** 

### 18 **specific component standards for the panels,** 

### 19 **display doors, non-display doors, and** 

### 20 **refrigeration systems of the walk-ins and not** 

### 21 **set a single standard for an assembled walk** 

### 22 **in. I think this is very important to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 consider that we're not setting standards for**  

### 2 **the system. We are setting standards for the** 

### 3 **components.** 

### 4 **There's some further definitions of** 

### 5 **this. These components are typically** 

### 6 **produced by different manufacturers. Under** 

### 7 **this approach, each manufacturer would only** 

### 8 **be responsible for certifying the component** 

### 9 **or components they manufacture. The modular** 

### 10 **nature of the walk-in means it is constructed** 

### 11 **of standardized components that can be** 

### 12 **assembled in a virtually infinite number of** 

### 13 **configurations that may affect the overall** 

### 14 **consumption of a given walk-in unit.** 

### 15 **Requiring a whole walk-in performance** 

### 16 **standard would be likely to present** 

### 17 **significant testing and enforcement burdens.** 

### 18 **In addition to the fact that we would need** 

### 19 **more data in terms of the performance, in** 

### 20 **terms of a system and that's one of the** 

### 21 **issues why we went back to the component** 

### 22 **level.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 Okay, as you can see comment box**  

### 2 **Issue 1: DOE seeks comment on the approach** 

### 3 **of setting standards at the component level** 

### 4 **for walk-ins.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred.** 

### 6 **MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. Yes, I** 

### 7 **agree that it should be components. I just** 

### 8 **have a comment on the current standard** 

### 9 **section where it says that walk-in coolers** 

### 10 **are storage space and then the cooler limits** 

### 11 **are above 32 and up to 55 degrees. The** 

### 12 **National Sanitation Foundation requires food** 

### 13 **storage to be 41 degrees maximum. So I'm not** 

### 14 **sure in the earlier conversation where the 55** 

### 15 **degrees came from, but that is not a food** 

### 16 **storage temperature.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 18 **you.** 

### 19 **MR. MINELLI: I would suggest that** 

### 20 **that be changed.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other** 

### 22 **comments on the approach that DOE is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 suggesting?**  

### 2 **Mike.** 

### 3 **MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub. We agree** 

### 4 **with the component level approach and I would** 

### 5 **dovetail on the comment about the modular** 

### 6 **nature of walk-ins. So if we're going to** 

### 7 **treat the walk-in as a modular approach, then** 

### 8 **the condensing units and the unit cooler** 

### 9 **should be treated the same way because there** 

### 10 **are an infinite number of combinations of** 

### 11 **unit coolers that could be matched with** 

### 12 **condensing units and you really can't treat** 

### 13 **them as only one system. A lot of it depends** 

### 14 **on the end application of the product that** 

### 15 **you're storing, the geometry of the box, how** 

### 16 **long the air throw is. Those are all** 

### 17 **different factors where you just can't say** 

### 18 **that one unit cooler is going to directly** 

### 19 **match with one condensing unit.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 21 **Yes, Jon?** 

### 22 **MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond. I just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 wanted to piggyback on what Mike said. We**  

### 2 **found that throughout the industry that some** 

### 3 **manufacturers make matched unit coolers and** 

### 4 **condensing units, but often times that unit** 

### 5 **cooler will be bought independently from the** 

### 6 **matched condensing unit system. So I'm a** 

### 7 **little concerned that considering the --** 

### 8 **we're concerned with the consideration of** 

### 9 **refrigeration systems as a component as a** 

### 10 **whole. We're not sure how that will work.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Harvey** 

### 12 **Sachs.** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. A couple** 

### 14 **of thoughts. One of them is that for** 

### 15 **loosely-related products such as commercial** 

### 16 **refrigeration, the ASRAC working group last** 

### 17 **summer did take some measures that have led** 

### 18 **to a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on AEDMs,** 

### 19 **Alternative Energy Determination Methods. It** 

### 20 **would seem to be incumbent upon the** 

### 21 **Department to think about how that can be** 

### 22 **used to piggyback through a quest for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 separate certification of the condensing**  

### 2 **units and the unit coolers to give a simple** 

### 3 **software tool for allowable mixes versus** 

### 4 **forbidden mixes on size match and other** 

### 5 **characteristics.** 

### 6 **And that leads to a question for my** 

### 7 **friend Jon Melchi at HARDI for what Robert** 

### 8 **Wilkins has brought out that there are** 

### 9 **enormous opportunities for some synergies** 

### 10 **that are not at the component level and are** 

### 11 **unlikely to be regulated. They don't fit** 

### 12 **well into the regulatory structure.** 

### 13 **The question for you is on the** 

### 14 **voluntary side, what can you all do to help** 

### 15 **your members make money by selling things** 

### 16 **like the integrated controls and other system** 

### 17 **level energy saving opportunities since you** 

### 18 **all seem to be the place that the contractors** 

### 19 **are going for technical advice and solutions.** 

### 20 **How's that for a softball?** 

### 21 **(Laughter.)** 

### 22 **MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi with HARDI.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 Thanks, Harvey. Our members have always had**  

### 2 **an interest in selling the newest and best** 

### 3 **technologies that they can. However, the** 

### 4 **market is dependent upon what the customer** 

### 5 **wants and I can tell you that our members are** 

### 6 **eager to promote new technologies to their** 

### 7 **customers, but at the end of the day it's up** 

### 8 **to the contractor that's installing and has** 

### 9 **the order to fill, if you will, to decide** 

### 10 **what purchase is going to be made. So we** 

### 11 **will do our best on the promotional end and** 

### 12 **are happy to do so on a voluntary basis.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's get** 

### 14 **other final comments on this component** 

### 15 **approach.** 

### 16 **Robert?** 

### 17 **MR. WILKINS: I think I agree with** 

### 18 **the discussion about a refrigeration system** 

### 19 **is really not a component because it's made** 

### 20 **by a group of manufacturers and then who** 

### 21 **would be responsible for certifying this** 

### 22 **system that is a collection. It's not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 defined. So taking it down a level below**  

### 2 **that to require condensing units to be** 

### 3 **certified, unit coolers to be certified,** 

### 4 **perhaps other components to be certified, on** 

### 5 **the one hand makes some sense. It** 

### 6 **distributes a regulatory burden to a broader** 

### 7 **group of companies. So I have some concerns** 

### 8 **there.** 

### 9 **But I also have a concern touching** 

### 10 **on what Harvey said, the further we push the** 

### 11 **regulation down to individual components,** 

### 12 **just to be a little facetious, are we going** 

### 13 **to regulate the solenoid valve that you use** 

### 14 **in the pump down cycle to control the watts** 

### 15 **in the coil? I mean we can get this down to** 

### 16 **such a level that's difficult to manage, but** 

### 17 **more importantly we totally lose the** 

### 18 **opportunity to pursue the system level** 

### 19 **performance improvements. And that's the** 

### 20 **real concern. I would urge us to, as we** 

### 21 **balance this, to look at other approaches** 

### 22 **that Jon spoke of.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 How could we use some non-regulatory**  

### 2 **approaches to really stimulate the use of** 

### 3 **these system approaches to raise the** 

### 4 **efficiency? I don't have the answer, sir,** 

### 5 **but I think the further we push this down,** 

### 6 **the more we lose the opportunity to get the** 

### 7 **advantage of system-level improvements.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Joanna.** 

### 9 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Given the** 

### 10 **nature of the market for walk-in coolers and** 

### 11 **freezers, we support the component level** 

### 12 **approach. As I mentioned in my opening** 

### 13 **statement, we have some similar concerns on** 

### 14 **the refrigeration system side as those have** 

### 15 **been mentioned, given that a refrigeration** 

### 16 **system is not necessarily a component sold by** 

### 17 **a single manufacturer and I just wanted to** 

### 18 **emphasize that kind of given the very large** 

### 19 **savings that DOE has estimated from the** 

### 20 **proposed standards from improved efficiency** 

### 21 **refrigeration systems. We just want to make** 

### 22 **sure that those savings are actually achieved**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 in the field through some kind of workable**  

### 2 **certification and enforcement approach.** 

### 3 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Excuse me, Charlie** 

### 4 **McCrudden, Air Conditioning Contractors of** 

### 5 **America. I think I want to sort of echo some** 

### 6 **of the comments that Robert Wilkins** 

### 7 **mentioned. Spreading enforcement and pushing** 

### 8 **it downward may make it relatively** 

### 9 **impractical and I think that relying upon** 

### 10 **contractors -- well, what I shouldn't say is** 

### 11 **relying upon contractors.** 

### 12 **I think there's an assumption that** 

### 13 **there's a reliance upon contractors to do the** 

### 14 **right thing to abide by the law and the** 

### 15 **regulations whatever they are. But I just** 

### 16 **don't know if it's possible for DOE to look** 

### 17 **at every single installation. If contractors** 

### 18 **are assemblers are manufacturers, I think** 

### 19 **it's much easier to look at the matched** 

### 20 **systems as we do with the residential** 

### 21 **equipment that's out there.** 

### 22 **I'm a little new to this so I don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 know if AHRI's directory looks at -- has**  

### 2 **certifications or certificates for matched** 

### 3 **systems in these products. I'm sure I'll** 

### 4 **find out the answer during a break if I talk** 

### 5 **to someone. I just want to make that** 

### 6 **comment.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon.** 

### 8 **MR. LEWIS: Yes, Harmon Lewis. We** 

### 9 **sell refrigeration systems with 76 percent of** 

### 10 **the walk-ins that we sell. Of that, we have** 

### 11 **104 different air cooled horsepower and** 

### 12 **electrical possibilities that we buy from** 

### 13 **companies around this table. Each of those** 

### 14 **units can be matched up with either, between** 

### 15 **five and seven different evaporator** 

### 16 **configurations, so I'm going to be testing a** 

### 17 **thousand different units.** 

### 18 **If you go back to this, we've got to** 

### 19 **put it all together. We've been doing this** 

### 20 **for 50 years. We think we know what we're** 

### 21 **doing. I don't know that we can prove it to** 

### 22 **the whole world, but our customers keep**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 coming back and buying more and more and we**  

### 2 **are energy interested.** 

### 3 **I've got grandchildren. Every day** 

### 4 **they ask me, "Poppa, what are you doing to** 

### 5 **save our environment?" And I tell them what** 

### 6 **I did, at a minimum recycling, whatever. I** 

### 7 **won't bore you with that, but we have to take** 

### 8 **and use the data from the condensing unit** 

### 9 **manufacturers, from the unit cooler** 

### 10 **manufacturers from these component** 

### 11 **manufacturers that the expansion valves will** 

### 12 **do what they do and we test and if they work** 

### 13 **we use them. If they don't, we don't.** 

### 14 **So again, 76 percent of the time** 

### 15 **they're going to come to us to buy it because** 

### 16 **they know they'll get something that will** 

### 17 **work and they know they've got one place to** 

### 18 **come if it doesn't work. If he goes and buys** 

### 19 **things at six different places, everybody** 

### 20 **points the finger. "My thing is fine. It's** 

### 21 **his thing." So they know our name is on the** 

### 22 **door. Our name is on the refrigeration and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 we resolve it.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 3 **you. Jim.** 

### 4 **MR. KINSER: I would suggest that** 

### 5 **let's just pick a particular evaporator that** 

### 6 **if you have a rating of say 9,000 BTUs you** 

### 7 **have a plus or minus range of a couple of** 

### 8 **thousand BTUs to allow somebody like Harmon** 

### 9 **to match that with a particular compressor to** 

### 10 **meet the needs of a particular job.** 

### 11 **I'm a little concerned that you have** 

### 12 **a certification on a particular condenser or** 

### 13 **an evaporator and it's hard and fast. It's** 

### 14 **going to stymie the improvements from** 

### 15 **Heatcraft and some of these other companies** 

### 16 **to make improvements because they don't want** 

### 17 **to have to go back and go through a whole** 

### 18 **other certification process. So that's all I** 

### 19 **would say.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis.** 

### 21 **MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. Our** 

### 22 **concern -- we agree with the component**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 approach, due to the fact that the industry**  

### 2 **is pretty well established that way and it** 

### 3 **gives us a lot of flexibility to meet** 

### 4 **specific requirements. So if the items are** 

### 5 **certified, then we can put them all together** 

### 6 **and come up with our energy. Believe me, no** 

### 7 **one in the walk-in business wants to sell** 

### 8 **refrigeration that doesn't work or is not** 

### 9 **meeting those requirements.** 

### 10 **One thing is concerning me though is** 

### 11 **that all this -- everything we're talking** 

### 12 **about here is addressed pretty much at the** 

### 13 **manufacturer. What concerns me is if we are** 

### 14 **not careful the burden is put on us, but if** 

### 15 **you are a contractor and you walk into a** 

### 16 **wholesaler and they're selling things that** 

### 17 **are not certified, well then we lose it all** 

### 18 **there. So in other words, no matter what we** 

### 19 **sell or what we're held to, if a contractor** 

### 20 **can go in and buy something that's not** 

### 21 **compliant and use it on a new walk-in,** 

### 22 **there's -- that puts us in a tremendous**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 competitive disadvantage. So if we're going**  

### 2 **to do what we're talking about doing, it** 

### 3 **needs to be across the board and not just for** 

### 4 **the manufacturer. But these wholesalers need** 

### 5 **to be in that situation, too.** 

### 6 **Last time we were here, we were** 

### 7 **talking about that and it was a great** 

### 8 **discussion, but we never saw any conclusion** 

### 9 **to how that was going to be handled. The** 

### 10 **last time we heard they were going to be and** 

### 11 **then was a big row and I never got the answer** 

### 12 **to that. So I'd like clarification on that,** 

### 13 **too.** 

### 14 **MR. MELCHI: John Melchi with HARDI.** 

### 15 **Our members in the wholesale community** 

### 16 **oftentimes sell a wide range of products at** 

### 17 **one time. It's very difficult for a** 

### 18 **wholesaler to govern, if you will, specific** 

### 19 **transactions. If a contractor comes in and** 

### 20 **says that he's using a part for a repair,** 

### 21 **then that part needs to be available for** 

### 22 **repair. It is not the responsibility of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 wholesaler to determine where this product is**  

### 2 **being installed. It could go to Bermuda once** 

### 3 **it leaves the warehouse or the store. And we** 

### 4 **do not think it's the good approach to limit** 

### 5 **product availability for replacement and** 

### 6 **repair that at the end would hurt the end** 

### 7 **user. You could hypothetically then be** 

### 8 **forcing an end user or a customer to incur** 

### 9 **substantial cost when there are replacement** 

### 10 **parts available.** 

### 11 **As my colleague Charlie said** 

### 12 **earlier, his contractors, the contractors** 

### 13 **that he represents take great care and** 

### 14 **responsibility to put the right parts in the** 

### 15 **right components together. My members take** 

### 16 **great care and great responsibility to sell** 

### 17 **the best systems available as Harvey** 

### 18 **indicated. But we simply need product** 

### 19 **available to repair existing equipment and I** 

### 20 **don't know that eliminating those products** 

### 21 **and their availability is going to get you** 

### 22 **where you want to go.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs.** 

### 3 **John, I think the record needs to** 

### 4 **reflect that within the last five years we've** 

### 5 **seen incredibly large-scale abuse of the** 

### 6 **concept of repair components. In the** 

### 7 **shipment of R-22 dry ship condensing units** 

### 8 **that were a clear effort of manufacturers and** 

### 9 **the entire feeding chain below, don't want to** 

### 10 **get into who started it, to subvert the SEER** 

### 11 **13 law by providing equipment which could not** 

### 12 **provide the functions required to meet the** 

### 13 **law.** 

### 14 **So I suspect there will be a great** 

### 15 **deal of interest in approaches that support** 

### 16 **the goal of legitimate repair parts** 

### 17 **availability without the abuses we've seen** 

### 18 **with what I'll call subsystem level** 

### 19 **replacements. I recognize that walk-ins are** 

### 20 **a very different animal from residential air** 

### 21 **conditioners. But this was a pretty bad** 

### 22 **experience in terms of national energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 savings and in terms of disrupting the level**  

### 2 **playing field of the market, refrigerants as** 

### 3 **well as equipment. I think it is a matter** 

### 4 **which has sensitized an awful lot of people** 

### 5 **to the potential for harm under the apple pie** 

### 6 **and other good things rubric of repair parts.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: The context** 

### 8 **is important here. Let's not drift too far.** 

### 9 **Let's get back to the components comments** 

### 10 **here. If there are any additional, we're** 

### 11 **about to move on.** 

### 12 **Jon?** 

### 13 **MR. McHUGH: So I think this** 

### 14 **reflects a lot of the concerns I alluded to** 

### 15 **in the opening comments and historically, DOE** 

### 16 **in an appliance standard rulemaking has** 

### 17 **created rules for the efficiency of products** 

### 18 **that can be enforced at the level of the** 

### 19 **manufacturer's catalog. I think what I think** 

### 20 **you're hearing is that a number of people are** 

### 21 **saying that it would probably be advantageous** 

### 22 **in terms of test burden, in terms of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 enforceability, to consider splitting the**  

### 2 **refrigeration standard into a condensing unit** 

### 3 **standard and a unit cooler standard. Then** 

### 4 **American Panel can say hey, I'm purchasing a** 

### 5 **compliant unit cooler and I'm purchasing a** 

### 6 **compliant condenser. I'm done. These guys** 

### 7 **have done their testing. And it would** 

### 8 **simplify the process.** 

### 9 **The larger mix/match approach** 

### 10 **probably actually makes more sense as a** 

### 11 **voluntary standard in terms of applying for** 

### 12 **utility incentives or that sort of thing** 

### 13 **based on manufacturer efficiencies that** 

### 14 **Robert had kind of talked about. How do we** 

### 15 **go beyond what is minimally compliant and so** 

### 16 **right now I think we have this problem that** 

### 17 **potentially there was some overreach in the** 

### 18 **legislation and DOE is trying to make the** 

### 19 **best of it, but to the extent that we've** 

### 20 **already gone down the path of saying that a** 

### 21 **component performance approach makes sense on** 

### 22 **the envelope and the refrigeration system.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 Perhaps it makes sense to have a component**  

### 2 **performance approach for the unit cooler and** 

### 3 **the condensing unit.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert.** 

### 5 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,** 

### 6 **Danfoss. I largely agree with Jon and I urge** 

### 7 **us to pursue that. I think we have to --** 

### 8 **there are some issues that need to be probed** 

### 9 **further. For example. I have a condensing** 

### 10 **unit that my company manufactures. It's** 

### 11 **certified, let's say. I have evaporator** 

### 12 **units over here and it's certified. But how** 

### 13 **do I know this condensing unit can work with** 

### 14 **this evaporator? And if the choice is not** 

### 15 **properly made then I've got a mismatch or** 

### 16 **imbalance in the system that no one has** 

### 17 **control over unless we thrust it at someone** 

### 18 **that today has to assume a burden or** 

### 19 **responsibility that it doesn't have today.** 

### 20 **I think that mismatch and it's** 

### 21 **partially related to the system efficiency** 

### 22 **argument that I posited a few moments ago,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 but it's more basic than that. You've got to**  

### 2 **be smart about the way these two subsystems** 

### 3 **work together. And it's more complicated in** 

### 4 **refrigeration than it is in unitary air** 

### 5 **conditioning where the unitary system** 

### 6 **manufacturer can take that responsibility.** 

### 7 **That body doesn't really exist today in this** 

### 8 **industry.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 10 **MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond. I agree** 

### 11 **with a lot that's been said. One thing I** 

### 12 **want to touch on in regards to the standard** 

### 13 **level for the component of a refrigeration** 

### 14 **system is something that Harvey briefly** 

### 15 **touched and that is the recent Supplemental** 

### 16 **Notice of Proposed Rule in AEDM that just** 

### 17 **came out which does not include walk-in** 

### 18 **coolers. So in order for a complete metric** 

### 19 **of matched, mix/match unit coolers and** 

### 20 **condensing units, we think the option of an** 

### 21 **AEDM needs to be there for these products,** 

### 22 **especially for these products.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, are we**  

### 2 **ready to move on now? Harmon, go ahead.** 

### 3 **MR. LEWIS: A real fast one. As we** 

### 4 **take the performance curves from the** 

### 5 **condenser unit manufacturer, the evaporator** 

### 6 **manufacturer, one is this way, one is that** 

### 7 **way, where they meet it better be less than -** 

### 8 **- right around a ten degree TD or it's going** 

### 9 **to be too wet. It's going to be too dry.** 

### 10 **We've got to look at all of that. And if** 

### 11 **it's wrong, again, it's our name on the door,** 

### 12 **we've got to make it right. It's expensive.** 

### 13 **We're going to do the right thing whatever** 

### 14 **DOE comes up with. Hopefully other** 

### 15 **manufacturers take that same approach.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Go ahead,** 

### 17 **Robert.** 

### 18 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins again.** 

### 19 **And I agree with that I think that can work.** 

### 20 **But remember, you said that -- you used a** 

### 21 **figure, if I recall, somewhere around three** 

### 22 **quarters of the units are sold combined sets.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 There's another group out there, maybe one**  

### 2 **quarter.** 

### 3 **I don't know the exact, where the** 

### 4 **contractor is going into the wholesaler, he's** 

### 5 **a sharp contractor. He builds these things** 

### 6 **up. He buys the panels. He buys the** 

### 7 **condensing unit, the evaporators, all the** 

### 8 **components and he assembles it. In that part** 

### 9 **of the business, who is going to -- the** 

### 10 **question is open. Who is going to play that** 

### 11 **role in that sector of the business?** 

### 12 **MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis. That 24** 

### 13 **percent that we don't have the market share** 

### 14 **of, over 15 percent of that they're hooking** 

### 15 **up to a rack system so we're not in that** 

### 16 **ballgame. So you're down below 10 percent** 

### 17 **where somebody is going to a contractor** 

### 18 **because they learned they can come to us and** 

### 19 **be taken care of.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie** 

### 21 **Stephens.** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. I**  

### 2 **think the discussion here is really leading** 

### 3 **us to the place we need to go. I think there** 

### 4 **are some problems that federal standards** 

### 5 **can't solve. We may not be able to get at** 

### 6 **the five to ten percent. There may be other** 

### 7 **methodologies.** 

### 8 **My organization, for instance, is in** 

### 9 **the business of investing in systems level** 

### 10 **energy savings given good components. I** 

### 11 **think -- I sense a lot of agreement here** 

### 12 **about the component level regulation. I think** 

### 13 **there are ways to take care of the other** 

### 14 **things that come along and given how many** 

### 15 **just plain simple and long history** 

### 16 **residential heat pump systems that we've** 

### 17 **looked at that have a COP of 1.2 as** 

### 18 **installed, they met the standards when they** 

### 19 **left the factory, but you know, we can't** 

### 20 **solve all those problems with a standard.** 

### 21 **But I think most of us can get out there and** 

### 22 **try to go after the ten percent that we don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 get.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 3 **Please say your name.** 

### 4 **MR. SCHAEFFER: Buzz Schaeffer with** 

### 5 **Hussmann. Just a quick comment. I'd like to** 

### 6 **concur on the basic current standard** 

### 7 **definition of we're concerned about having** 

### 8 **the standards go up to 55 degrees that we may** 

### 9 **ensnare some processes in the food chain** 

### 10 **unintentionally that have totally different** 

### 11 **energy profiles than traditional storage** 

### 12 **systems.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 14 **you. This conceptual discussion struck me as** 

### 15 **being necessary. I think we're done with it** 

### 16 **now, right? We're going to move on.** 

### 17 **MR. LLENZA: Yes, just a reminder** 

### 18 **also, please, we like written comments. So** 

### 19 **if you can summarize your comments in written** 

### 20 **form and provide that to the Department that** 

### 21 **would be greatly appreciated.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So back to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 Charles Llenza.**  

### 2 **MR. LLENZA: I'm going to talk about** 

### 3 **the component standard metrics which has a** 

### 4 **lot to do with the discussion that we just** 

### 5 **went through. The energy standards for each** 

### 6 **component are expressed in terms of** 

### 7 **component-specific metrics. So for the** 

### 8 **refrigeration systems, we have a Minimum** 

### 9 **Annual Walk-in Energy Factor, AWEF. And** 

### 10 **represents the ratio of the heat removed from** 

### 11 **the walk-in to the energy input of the** 

### 12 **refrigeration system over one year.** 

### 13 **For panels, the maximum U-factor,** 

### 14 **the amount of heat conducted through the** 

### 15 **panel per hour, per square foot of panel** 

### 16 **area, per degree Fahrenheit of temperature** 

### 17 **difference across the panel.** 

### 18 **For the doors, it's a maximum daily** 

### 19 **energy use, a combination of the electrical** 

### 20 **energy used by the door components, plus the** 

### 21 **estimated energy used by refrigeration system** 

### 22 **to reject the heat conducted through the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 door.**  

### 2 **Issue 10: DOE seeks comments on the** 

### 3 **proposed metrics. Again, this ties into** 

### 4 **probably the first part of the discussion,** 

### 5 **but now we're talking specifics for the** 

### 6 **metrics of the components.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I didn't get** 

### 8 **your name at the outset.** 

### 9 **MR. SENTER: Guy Senter.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please,** 

### 11 **you're next.** 

### 12 **MR. SENTER: Regarding the passage** 

### 13 **doors, we actually suggested that DOE** 

### 14 **consider using a different metric for the** 

### 15 **doors. We see the majority of the heat gain** 

### 16 **in a door is the heat coming through the** 

### 17 **periphery of the door cap, not an area-based** 

### 18 **approach, but a length-based approach.** 

### 19 **And I'll give you an example, when** 

### 20 **you step up from a small to a medium, your** 

### 21 **areas increases by 29 percent and your** 

### 22 **periphery increases by 11. So therefore we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 are suggesting that you calculate the heat**  

### 2 **gain through the door in a process similar to** 

### 3 **an ASTM C 1363. You simply measure the** 

### 4 **heater anti-sweat devices along with your** 

### 5 **heat going into the metering chamber.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 7 **you.** 

### 8 **Other comments on Slide 14?** 

### 9 **Proposed Metrics? Nothing additional. Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. LLENZA: Again, we welcome** 

### 11 **written comments.** 

### 12 **I'm just going to give you a brief** 

### 13 **overview of the rulemaking schedule. In** 

### 14 **2009, we provided a Framework Document** 

### 15 **meeting and at this point in time we're at** 

### 16 **the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking meeting.** 

### 17 **And we've gone through the preliminary TSD.** 

### 18 **As you can see, the original statutory** 

### 19 **deadline for the final rule was 2012. That** 

### 20 **is now the projected deadline, projected** 

### 21 **month is April 2014. With a projected** 

### 22 **timeframe of 2014, we are projecting a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 compliance time frame of April 2017. And**  

### 2 **that's pretty much what the Department sees** 

### 3 **as where we're headed with the time line.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert.** 

### 5 **MR. WILKINS: Thank you. I just** 

### 6 **wonder if we are taking such a large step** 

### 7 **splitting this refrigeration system into two** 

### 8 **parts, condensing units and evaporator** 

### 9 **assemblies, whether more time is needed to** 

### 10 **address that and come up with appropriate** 

### 11 **approaches for those two components. We** 

### 12 **haven't even looked at that yet.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 14 **Guy, do you have something here?** 

### 15 **No. Okay.** 

### 16 **Joanna?** 

### 17 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Is DOE** 

### 18 **planning to address certification and** 

### 19 **enforcement as part of the standards** 

### 20 **rulemaking or would that not come until** 

### 21 **after?** 

### 22 **MR. LLENZA: We work together with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 the enforcement and compliance teams and what**  

### 2 **we do is we're trying to make sure that the** 

### 3 **standards set are reasonably enforceable that** 

### 4 **the manufacturers and parties that provide** 

### 5 **walk-in coolers and freezers can meet those** 

### 6 **standards. But it's a separate -- the** 

### 7 **enforcement activity is a separate activity** 

### 8 **that happens after the final rule becomes --** 

### 9 **we finalize the final rule and publish.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred?** 

### 11 **MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I would** 

### 12 **like to suggest that we extend the time** 

### 13 **somewhat, primarily because of my earlier** 

### 14 **comments about the ASTM standard and the** 

### 15 **European standard that panel manufacturers** 

### 16 **are going to be forced to test to. At** 

### 17 **today's date, there are two, only two, test** 

### 18 **labs certify to conduct ASTM C 1363. And** 

### 19 **there are none that even know what that** 

### 20 **European standard is. I think without some** 

### 21 **better development of those standards or** 

### 22 **better understanding of those standards that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 we as an industry, the panel industry are**  

### 2 **going to have a very, very difficult time** 

### 3 **complying with these dates.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Mike** 

### 5 **Kido.** 

### 6 **MR. KIDO: Just a quick follow-up to** 

### 7 **that. Do you mean, by an extension, are you** 

### 8 **referring to the final rule’s projected date** 

### 9 **or do you mean the actual compliance date** 

### 10 **that would flow from this particular** 

### 11 **rulemaking?** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred?** 

### 13 **MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli.** 

### 14 **Compliance date and testing date, both. If** 

### 15 **we can't test, if there's no one that can run** 

### 16 **the test, how are we going to be able to** 

### 17 **test? Thank you.** 

### 18 **MR. RAWALD: Fred, this is Doug** 

### 19 **Rawald. I want to follow-up on that. So we** 

### 20 **currently have a test procedure in place with** 

### 21 **a date for when it's going to be effective.** 

### 22 **Do you want a delay in that date as well? Is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 that what you're asking?**  

### 2 **MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. You** 

### 3 **said you have the delay effective --** 

### 4 **MR. RAWALD: No, there's a test** 

### 5 **procedure in place that's going to become** 

### 6 **effective on a certain date. Do you want** 

### 7 **that to be delayed as well? Is that what** 

### 8 **you're asking?** 

### 9 **MR. MINELLI: Yes. I think that it** 

### 10 **should be delayed until there are test labs** 

### 11 **that are qualified to do these tests and more** 

### 12 **than two that can only do one test and no one** 

### 13 **that can do the other.** 

### 14 **MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald** 

### 15 **again. Can you include in your written** 

### 16 **comments that you provide us a date that you** 

### 17 **would propose for that delay in testing as** 

### 18 **well?** 

### 19 **MR. MINELLI: Sure. Thank you.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie.** 

### 21 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden,** 

### 22 **Air Conditioning Contractors of America. I'd**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 like to follow up on Joanna's question about**  

### 2 **the enforcement and compliance. Am I to** 

### 3 **understand that there is a separate** 

### 4 **rulemaking on the enforcement that comes out** 

### 5 **of this rulemaking and would that be noticed** 

### 6 **in the Federal Register?** 

### 7 **MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.** 

### 8 **So there is no currently open rulemaking** 

### 9 **regarding certification and enforcement for** 

### 10 **walk-in coolers. But if we were to take** 

### 11 **advantage of some of the comments here** 

### 12 **regarding especially breaking up** 

### 13 **refrigeration systems, that would require a** 

### 14 **change in Part 429 which is currently where** 

### 15 **the certification regulations are for walk-in** 

### 16 **coolers as well as all of our other products.** 

### 17 **So we would have to do a follow-on rulemaking** 

### 18 **for that to go in and do that process.** 

### 19 **I mean as folks understand, we** 

### 20 **currently require certification from** 

### 21 **manufacturers of doors, panels, and** 

### 22 **refrigeration systems as a whole so in order**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 to adopt the more component level approach we**  

### 2 **would definitely have to amend those** 

### 3 **regulations that do that.** 

### 4 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Would the follow-up** 

### 5 **on the course of certification and rulemaking** 

### 6 **then have to be shoe horned into the** 

### 7 **compliance date of April 2017?** 

### 8 **MR. RAWALD: I would think so, but I** 

### 9 **would be speaking out of turn if I gave a** 

### 10 **definitive answer to that. So what we would** 

### 11 **do is we'd go through an ordinary notice and** 

### 12 **comment rulemaking process to put that rule** 

### 13 **in place and with the hope of making sure** 

### 14 **that it will meet those dates.** 

### 15 **MR. McCRUDDEN: And one final** 

### 16 **question. Right now, if there's a violation** 

### 17 **of the standards or the rules, who is liable** 

### 18 **and what actions can be taken against them?** 

### 19 **MR. RAWALD: If I could seek** 

### 20 **clarification. So you're saying who is** 

### 21 **liable as far as manufacturer versus the** 

### 22 **contractor that builds the walk-in?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 MR. McCRUDDEN: I'm assuming right**  

### 2 **now it's just manufacturers since this has** 

### 3 **only sort of looked at manufacturers.** 

### 4 **MR. RAWALD: Right. So the** 

### 5 **Department of Energy's regulations define a** 

### 6 **manufacturer to include the manufacturer of** 

### 7 **both the components and the manufacturer of** 

### 8 **the final walk-in. So both parties are** 

### 9 **liable for failing to adhere to the standards** 

### 10 **that we have in place both under the Energy** 

### 11 **Independence Security Act, as well as our** 

### 12 **regulations.** 

### 13 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Thank you.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert.** 

### 15 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,** 

### 16 **Danfoss. The discussion here is about the** 

### 17 **timeline and the questions were about the** 

### 18 **proposed compliance date. I want to draw** 

### 19 **that back to the final rule date because I** 

### 20 **fear that if we are redefining this** 

### 21 **refrigeration system into condensing units** 

### 22 **and unit coolers that have not been studied**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 separate from each other, no research has**  

### 2 **been done. We don't understand the ins and** 

### 3 **outs. There's no way we can get that. We** 

### 4 **simply have got to get that right. And I'm** 

### 5 **not trying to drag the process out, but we've** 

### 6 **got to get it right and so I'm arguing I** 

### 7 **don't know what that final rule date should** 

### 8 **be, but I don't see how DOE can possibly** 

### 9 **complete that work between now and when that** 

### 10 **is.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: April.** 

### 12 **MR. WILKINS: April.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike Kido.** 

### 14 **MR. KIDO: Just one follow-up to** 

### 15 **that. I will note that the Agency has** 

### 16 **submitted a letter to a group of State** 

### 17 **Attorneys General and we've made a commitment** 

### 18 **to try to complete this particular rulemaking** 

### 19 **by April 2014. So that's where that** 

### 20 **particular date comes from.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks for** 

### 22 **that clarification.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 MR. WILKINS: But if it's**  

### 2 **meaningless and there's no basis for it and** 

### 3 **we don't know what it is, then we're doing a** 

### 4 **disservice to everyone.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 6 **Robert.** 

### 7 **Michael Kido.** 

### 8 **MR. KIDO: We'll certainly take that** 

### 9 **into account and with your written comments** 

### 10 **if you would have anything else that you'd** 

### 11 **like to go into in detail about that** 

### 12 **particular date, we'd certainly consider** 

### 13 **that.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 15 **MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi from HARDI.** 

### 16 **Thank you.** 

### 17 **Michael, just to ask for a little** 

### 18 **clarification, the letters that you reference** 

### 19 **from the States Attorney General, can you** 

### 20 **provide any context or background for us? Is** 

### 21 **that going to be available in the docket? If** 

### 22 **it is indeed part of the driving force for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 setting that April 2014 date, I think it's**  

### 2 **important for everybody to understand who or** 

### 3 **exactly who sent it and what their aim was.** 

### 4 **MR. KIDO: We'll make sure that's** 

### 5 **entered into the docket.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. I** 

### 7 **think we're ready to move on now. Oh, we've** 

### 8 **got one more comment.** 

### 9 **Buzz?** 

### 10 **MR. SCHAEFFER: Buzz Schaeffer,** 

### 11 **Hussmann. As far as the compliance date, I** 

### 12 **think it's very important that we do take** 

### 13 **into consideration the certification process** 

### 14 **because both are going to affect business** 

### 15 **decisions moving forward.** 

### 16 **My company has to make a decision.** 

### 17 **Are we going to spend X amount of money to** 

### 18 **stay in this market or are we going to** 

### 19 **abandon certain segments of the market? So** 

### 20 **for us to come with a compliance date and for** 

### 21 **us to do a bunch of testing and redesigning** 

### 22 **of equipment and then having someone come**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 along later for the certification process**  

### 2 **that triples our costs would not, I think, be** 

### 3 **acceptable to my management.** 

### 4 **MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.** 

### 5 **And we understand your concern. We'll take** 

### 6 **that into account in the future rulemaking if** 

### 7 **there is one necessary for certification of** 

### 8 **these products.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you for** 

### 10 **that. Jon.** 

### 11 **MR. LEMMOND: One quick note. There** 

### 12 **is no AHRI certification program for these** 

### 13 **products. There's no third party** 

### 14 **certification program for this now, so just** 

### 15 **something to consider for the timeline.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 17 **Ellis.** 

### 18 **MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. I'm** 

### 19 **concerned about again small businesses. Is** 

### 20 **that going to be addressed before all this** 

### 21 **happens or is that just -- how is that dealt** 

### 22 **with? Is that overlooked or just gone on or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 do we steamroll over that idea or where are**  

### 2 **we at? We're going to have all these things** 

### 3 **coming at that we're going to have to comply** 

### 4 **with like you said about money being assisted** 

### 5 **and several things, so --** 

### 6 **MR. RAWALD: And if I understand** 

### 7 **your question, this is Doug Rawald again.** 

### 8 **You're talking about with regards to** 

### 9 **additional certification requirements?** 

### 10 **MR. CRAIG: Yes, the impact it's** 

### 11 **having is not proportionate to large** 

### 12 **businesses versus small businesses. It's** 

### 13 **documented several times in this document** 

### 14 **that small businesses are very potentially** 

### 15 **being unfairly impacted compared to large** 

### 16 **businesses. And is that going to be dealt** 

### 17 **with before we start putting this on a** 

### 18 **timeline because that's another thing that** 

### 19 **really needs to be dealt with before we start** 

### 20 **coming out with certifications and all these** 

### 21 **type of things. Do you follow what I'm** 

### 22 **saying?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. I**  

### 2 **do understand what you're saying and we do** 

### 3 **take seriously the impact on small businesses** 

### 4 **in every rulemaking that we do as required by** 

### 5 **law and also what's responsible for us. And** 

### 6 **so we will take consideration of those** 

### 7 **things. And if we do a rulemaking regarding** 

### 8 **certification and enforcement of these** 

### 9 **products in the future, we will take into** 

### 10 **consideration of those. We will ask for** 

### 11 **comment and we will consider seriously the** 

### 12 **impact this will have.** 

### 13 **MR. CRAIG: We're represented by the** 

### 14 **Small Business Administration, so trying to** 

### 15 **get a hold of them is very hard to get a hold** 

### 16 **of them. I guess you know that, right?** 

### 17 **MR. RAWALD: Well, right now we're** 

### 18 **in shutdown.** 

### 19 **MR. CRAIG: Well, not even that.** 

### 20 **Even if it was working it's hard to get a** 

### 21 **hold of them because you can't just call them** 

### 22 **on a telephone number and talk to somebody.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 Our concern is they're representing us. They**  

### 2 **should be here representing us in this** 

### 3 **situation because we have documentation from** 

### 4 **the DOE stating that it's going to impact us,** 

### 5 **but that isn't happening at this meeting** 

### 6 **because obviously they're not here because of** 

### 7 **that shutdown, but how do we deal with that?** 

### 8 **MR. CYMBALSKY: This is Jon** 

### 9 **Cymbalsky from DOE. So the Small Business** 

### 10 **Administration actually participated in the** 

### 11 **interagency review that this proposal went** 

### 12 **through and the SBA, in fact, was on the** 

### 13 **interagency call that we do for every** 

### 14 **rulemaking that we do that goes through the** 

### 15 **Office of Management and Budget. So the SBA** 

### 16 **actually has read this proposal and has** 

### 17 **represented the small business concerns on** 

### 18 **this rule.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Ellis.** 

### 20 **MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig again. I'm** 

### 21 **new to this evidently. But what you're** 

### 22 **saying is, what it seems like we're saying is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 that we're going to unfairly impact small**  

### 2 **businesses and the SBA says that's okay and** 

### 3 **we're going to go ahead and do it. Did I** 

### 4 **read that right?** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I don't think** 

### 6 **that's what was said. That may be your** 

### 7 **interpretation of it. That's not what I just** 

### 8 **heard a moment ago.** 

### 9 **MR. CRAIG: What did you hear?** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I heard Jon** 

### 11 **Cymbalsky say that the SBA represented the** 

### 12 **concerns of small businesses.** 

### 13 **MR. CRAIG: Yes, I understand that,** 

### 14 **but the documents here state it's going to** 

### 15 **unfairly affect small businesses. And what** 

### 16 **we're really saying is the SBA is agreeing** 

### 17 **with that?** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Well, we're** 

### 19 **getting your comment loud and clear.** 

### 20 **MR. CRAIG: I just wanted to make** 

### 21 **sure it was on the record.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael Kido.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 MR. KIDO: Just one last follow-up,**  

### 2 **there is a provision in the statute that** 

### 3 **provides for a two-year extension of the** 

### 4 **three-year projected compliance date and** 

### 5 **that's one of the things that's sort of a** 

### 6 **rare option that's available to the Agency,** 

### 7 **so when everyone is preparing their written** 

### 8 **comments and wants to explain some of the** 

### 9 **technical difficulties or complexities that** 

### 10 **are involved here, it's certainly a factor** 

### 11 **that we can take into account in deciding** 

### 12 **when the compliance date actually should be** 

### 13 **for this particular role.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 15 **Michael, that's helpful.** 

### 16 **Fred?** 

### 17 **MR. MINELLI: I just want to follow** 

### 18 **up with what Ellis had to say about the** 

### 19 **additional costs and I think by definition** 

### 20 **every manufacturer on the panel side, every** 

### 21 **one of us would be small business.** 

### 22 **Has DOE looked at the cost of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 ASTM 518 which is the current requirement and**  

### 2 **is virtually free, done by the foam** 

### 3 **suppliers? But the new testing, there's a** 

### 4 **great deal of testing that's going to be** 

### 5 **required there, a great deal of costs is** 

### 6 **going to be required there.** 

### 7 **And again, panels do not consume** 

### 8 **energy. Panels are just R-value. So why** 

### 9 **couldn't we calculate R-values, overall R** 

### 10 **values or just establish an R-value that's** 

### 11 **one point higher than it is now which is all** 

### 12 **you're going to get out of this testing** 

### 13 **anyway? It seems like an awful lot of** 

### 14 **additional costs for the small manufacturers** 

### 15 **which is all of us. Additional costs to get** 

### 16 **absolutely no more than one R. I don't** 

### 17 **understand the process.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 19 **you.** 

### 20 **Jim.** 

### 21 **MR. KINSER: I want to agree with** 

### 22 **Fred on that statement. He's right on the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 money there, but I would ask the enforcement**  

### 2 **to consider that -- are we talking about just** 

### 3 **getting certification or companies like mine** 

### 4 **following the regulation because I think all** 

### 5 **of us are following the regulations as** 

### 6 **they're written. It's just whether or not we** 

### 7 **can find that company to do the certification** 

### 8 **that Fred is talking about. How fair is that** 

### 9 **to small business? I ask you to consider** 

### 10 **that.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 12 **MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. I** 

### 13 **want to clarify some terminology. So we're** 

### 14 **not requiring companies to obtain** 

### 15 **certifications. Companies have to certify to** 

### 16 **us that your products are compliant with our** 

### 17 **standards. So that's the requirement. We** 

### 18 **don't require companies to obtain** 

### 19 **certifications from a company like AHRI or a** 

### 20 **different agency. So I just want to be clear** 

### 21 **that's what we're talking about. So we would** 

### 22 **require possibly additional certification**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 requirements if we were to break down the**  

### 2 **refrigeration units as described before and** 

### 3 **that would require something different.** 

### 4 **Now from an enforcement point of** 

### 5 **view, we do follow-up beyond making** 

### 6 **manufacturers certify to us. We also then** 

### 7 **test products to ensure that they are being** 

### 8 **manufactured in compliance with our standards** 

### 9 **and that's also part of our enforcement** 

### 10 **process. So it's a two-stage process here.** 

### 11 **MR. KINSER: How are you going to** 

### 12 **test it? Because he's just saying that** 

### 13 **nobody here can do the test. How are you** 

### 14 **going to test it?** 

### 15 **MR. RAWALD: Right, so we are** 

### 16 **currently working on how we're going to test** 

### 17 **these things. Obviously, the test procedure** 

### 18 **is not in effect at the moment, so we're not** 

### 19 **testing at the moment.** 

### 20 **MR. KINSER: Let me know because I** 

### 21 **want to use them, too.** 

### 22 **MR. RAWALD: I understand. I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 understand. So I understand your comments**  

### 2 **and we'll definitely take them into** 

### 3 **consideration.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: David.** 

### 5 **MR. GRIFE: David Grife, Arctic** 

### 6 **Industries. The small business is so** 

### 7 **important I think we also forget the entire** 

### 8 **pipeline, the stakeholders involved. Many of** 

### 9 **us here sell to small business. Our impact** 

### 10 **is their impact. Right now I would say many** 

### 11 **of our customers have no idea what is** 

### 12 **happening in this room. Many of the** 

### 13 **consultants who affect our business, many of** 

### 14 **the end users and dealers that are all part** 

### 15 **of the supply chain, many of them are small** 

### 16 **businesses as well. So we really need to** 

### 17 **look at this much more than just us, but all** 

### 18 **of our customers because every impact here is** 

### 19 **going to impact all of them as well.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Jon.** 

### 21 **MR. McHUGH: This is going to Fred's** 

### 22 **comments and it would be interesting to hear**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 what the approach would be from DOE in terms**  

### 2 **of some kind of calculated approach that** 

### 3 **allows someone like Fred to get a calculation** 

### 4 **of U-factor for the foam and a calculation --** 

### 5 **measured U-factor of the foam, measured U** 

### 6 **factor of his framing components and then** 

### 7 **being able to either do an overall U-factor** 

### 8 **calculation just like we do for buildings or** 

### 9 **some sort of deemed allowance that his** 

### 10 **framing members have to have U-factors of X** 

### 11 **or something like that. So I think there's a** 

### 12 **couple of different ways to solve this** 

### 13 **without necessarily testing the whole** 

### 14 **component.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred, follow** 

### 16 **on.** 

### 17 **MR. MINELLI: Jon, I agree one** 

### 18 **hundred percent. We can calculate those** 

### 19 **overall U-values and we do that now. It** 

### 20 **would be a much better, less expensive** 

### 21 **process than trying to conduct tests that no** 

### 22 **one knows how to run yet.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs and** 

### 3 **I just want to suggest that if there's a** 

### 4 **little bit of collaborative effort, we don't** 

### 5 **need to completely reinvent the wheel each** 

### 6 **time. For over a decade, we've had a** 

### 7 **successful process with National Fenestration** 

### 8 **Rating Council for methods to get the overall** 

### 9 **performance of what you might consider a** 

### 10 **transparent door, otherwise known as a** 

### 11 **window. And it seems to me that with some** 

### 12 **investment by DOE and simulation engines,** 

### 13 **analogous to the alternative energy** 

### 14 **determination methods that were discussed** 

### 15 **extensively over the summer, that the** 

### 16 **compliance burden, the certification burden** 

### 17 **in particular can be made de minimis,** 

### 18 **although everyone certainly everyone would** 

### 19 **remain at risk of verification test if it** 

### 20 **turned out that this product did not perform** 

### 21 **as the simulation to the approved program** 

### 22 **predicted it would. That's it.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert.**  

### 2 **MR. WILKINS: I think that's a good** 

### 3 **suggestion and we've got several issues** 

### 4 **related to the compliance date, but I'd like** 

### 5 **to come back to the issue of the** 

### 6 **refrigeration system. If we bifurcate that** 

### 7 **into condensing units and evaporators then we** 

### 8 **haven't even started that and we only have** 

### 9 **until April. So I'd urge DOE to consider** 

### 10 **moving forward with the larger walk-in cooler** 

### 11 **and freezer rulemaking. Do that. You made a** 

### 12 **commitment to the AGs, do that. But then** 

### 13 **open up and delve into the area where we're** 

### 14 **going to need more time and that's a** 

### 15 **condensing unit and the unit coolers and take** 

### 16 **the time that we need to get it right.** 

### 17 **I'm not trying to defer that. Set** 

### 18 **up a supplemental NOPR, for example. Focus** 

### 19 **in on that issue and take the time to do that** 

### 20 **right. Thank you.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We have a** 

### 22 **comment from an individual who is listening**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 in via the web. This is from Kenny Baum who**  

### 2 **says "If we build the apparatus as outlined** 

### 3 **in ASTM C 1363, who has to certify us so that** 

### 4 **we can run the panel testing for our** 

### 5 **customers?"** 

### 6 **Fred?** 

### 7 **MR. MINELLI: I would like to** 

### 8 **comment on that. Fred Minelli. The ASTM** 

### 9 **would have to certify them. They would have** 

### 10 **to become a certified ASTM laboratory to test** 

### 11 **under an ASTM.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. MINELLI: Thank you.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Guy?** 

### 15 **MR. SENTER: Our lab that tested to** 

### 16 **C518 is certified by NVLAP, N-V-L-A-P, I** 

### 17 **believe. Once this rule gets passed, I'm** 

### 18 **assuming several labs will start** 

### 19 **investigating the standard and start offering** 

### 20 **it.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. All of** 

### 22 **these comments seem entirely germane, but I'm**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 getting worried. We really need to keep**  

### 2 **moving along here, folks, okay? So I don't** 

### 3 **want to diminish anyone's potential for** 

### 4 **comment, but we need to keep chugging along.** 

### 5 **So I'm going to take it then to Laura.** 

### 6 **MS. DEGITZ: Good morning. I'm** 

### 7 **going to talk about the market and technology** 

### 8 **and screening analysis.** 

### 9 **As you can see, this is one of the** 

### 10 **first steps in the NOPR rulemaking phase.** 

### 11 **DOE used catalogue and existing component** 

### 12 **performance data to characterize the market** 

### 13 **for this equipment. However, this is a** 

### 14 **newly-regulated market, as we're all aware,** 

### 15 **and the proposed metrics have not been** 

### 16 **previously used by this market. So the** 

### 17 **Department is requesting that interested** 

### 18 **parties submit performance data preferably** 

### 19 **based on the proposed metrics. I realize** 

### 20 **that you might not have this data with you** 

### 21 **today, but as it's been stated, we would** 

### 22 **greatly appreciate written comments with this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 data.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Maybe we can** 

### 3 **get an indication. Do many of you have this** 

### 4 **performance data that you can offer up? Or** 

### 5 **is DOE making a request that will not be** 

### 6 **fulfilled?** 

### 7 **It's not encouraging the level of response** 

### 8 **I'm getting here in the room.** 

### 9 **Ellis.** 

### 10 **MR. CRAIG: Are you talking about** 

### 11 **the testing done under the existing** 

### 12 **standards? Or are you talking about the** 

### 13 **standards that we're proposing?** 

### 14 **MS. DEGITZ: The proposed.** 

### 15 **MR. CRAIG: Obviously, we don't have** 

### 16 **that because we don't have testing firms to** 

### 17 **be able to perform that, so we wouldn't have** 

### 18 **that.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: But I guess -** 

### 20 **- can you say why your expectation was they** 

### 21 **might have some data?** 

### 22 **MS. DEGITZ: As manufacturers, we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 would hope that you would have some -- at**  

### 2 **least some performance data. If it's not in** 

### 3 **the proposed metrics, we would accept any** 

### 4 **information that you could submit to us.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis.** 

### 6 **MR. CRAIG: Everyone here should** 

### 7 **have data testing done on -- like the** 

### 8 **insulation that they have in their products.** 

### 9 **So that should be available. That wouldn't** 

### 10 **be too big a problem to get to because a lot** 

### 11 **of times it's third party. It's not us.** 

### 12 **It's the people we buy from has that testing** 

### 13 **data.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 15 **MR. CRAIG: So that would be** 

### 16 **accessible. There's only a handful of those,** 

### 17 **so if you talk to those, they would give you** 

### 18 **all the -- we can get all that spec for you.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's what I** 

### 20 **wanted to clarify. That's why I sent it back** 

### 21 **to Laura. That's what the Department is** 

### 22 **hoping to get from you all and hopefully in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 your written comments that data can be made**  

### 2 **available.** 

### 3 **So then Laura, keep going.** 

### 4 **MS. DEGITZ: As part of the market** 

### 5 **analysis, DOE broke each of the main** 

### 6 **components into separate equipment classes.** 

### 7 **For walk-in doors, DOE proposed to establish** 

### 8 **a standard for display doors which is** 

### 9 **designed for product display and is at least** 

### 10 **75 percent glass or another transparent** 

### 11 **material; also a freight door which is** 

### 12 **obviously not a display door and is at least** 

### 13 **4 feet wide by 8 feet tall and a passage door** 

### 14 **which was proposed to be defined as a door** 

### 15 **that is neither freight nor display.** 

### 16 **For each of these door types, DOE is** 

### 17 **also proposing separate classes for freezer** 

### 18 **versus cooler applications. And the** 

### 19 **Department requests comment on these** 

### 20 **definitions.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments on** 

### 22 **the definitions, particularly Ellis, please.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 MR. CRAIG: I have a question.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Turn the** 

### 3 **microphone on.** 

### 4 **MR. CRAIG: I'm sorry.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. CRAIG: I felt like I was** 

### 7 **talking to her.** 

### 8 **(Laughter.)** 

### 9 **One question I have is when we talk** 

### 10 **about doors, we're thinking about a door the** 

### 11 **person opens the door and walks in. In the** 

### 12 **walk-in business, there's also reach-in doors** 

### 13 **which are not the glass doors, but they're** 

### 14 **just a small two by two door that's made in** 

### 15 **the side of a walk-in which really has** 

### 16 **different parameters than the other door** 

### 17 **because -- are we requiring in your** 

### 18 **definition that now every different size of** 

### 19 **that door has to be tested?** 

### 20 **MS. DEGITZ: With these proposed** 

### 21 **definitions that would fall under a passage** 

### 22 **door. If you could submit data about the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 market share of these reach-in doors and**  

### 2 **maybe characterize them some more in what** 

### 3 **sizes they would be, that would be helpful to** 

### 4 **the Department.** 

### 5 **MR. CRAIG: So, on a freight door** 

### 6 **then every size door you manufacture needs to** 

### 7 **be tested?** 

### 8 **MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.** 

### 9 **So our certification requirements are based** 

### 10 **upon the idea of a basic model. And so** 

### 11 **models within a basic model can differ in** 

### 12 **size as long as it doesn't affect the energy** 

### 13 **consumption characteristics.** 

### 14 **MR. CRAIG: That's fine.** 

### 15 **MR. RAWALD: Okay.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay? Fred.** 

### 17 **MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I guess** 

### 18 **I would like to back up on doors, back up to** 

### 19 **the panel side of it also because doors are** 

### 20 **basically a panel with gasket and heaters and** 

### 21 **whatever. So if we're trying to collar the** 

### 22 **energy used by the door, it's not the door**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 panel itself. It's going to be the heater,**  

### 2 **if there is a heater and if that is what DOE** 

### 3 **is after I would like to suggest on doors** 

### 4 **also that we calculate R-value, ASTM C 518 of** 

### 5 **that door and then calculate the electrical** 

### 6 **draw for the heaters if heaters are used. If** 

### 7 **there are no heaters, then would there be a** 

### 8 **need for any kind of calculation for the door** 

### 9 **other than R-value?** 

### 10 **MR. RAWALD: We understand those** 

### 11 **comments and we'll take into consideration.** 

### 12 **I think they're valid.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 14 **MS. DEGITZ: I have a slight follow** 

### 15 **up to that comment. So are you proposing** 

### 16 **that there would be two separate metrics for** 

### 17 **the door then like an energy use and an R** 

### 18 **value metric? Or are you proposing some type** 

### 19 **of combined metric that incorporates both of** 

### 20 **those qualities?** 

### 21 **MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I'm** 

### 22 **just proposing something different than what**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 we're trying to do now, that the door is**  

### 2 **basically a panel with a different type of** 

### 3 **edging so that whatever we look at in energy** 

### 4 **usage should affect that edging and not the** 

### 5 **door. The door is just another panel. Thank** 

### 6 **you.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie** 

### 8 **Stephens.** 

### 9 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, Charlie** 

### 10 **Stephens. As I understand it, the door** 

### 11 **metric is a combination of the refrigeration** 

### 12 **load created by the heat loss through the** 

### 13 **door plus any electrical components** 

### 14 **associated with the door now, daily energy** 

### 15 **use and that there's an NFRC essentially** 

### 16 **procedure for calculating that. I don't** 

### 17 **think there's any problem here from what** 

### 18 **-- I don't hear any differences in what** 

### 19 **people are saying, so it doesn't seem all** 

### 20 **that difficult to do.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Final** 

### 22 **comments?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 Laura.**  

### 2 **MS. DEGITZ: So for walk-in panels,** 

### 3 **DOE is proposing three equipment classes,** 

### 4 **structural cooler panels, structural freezer** 

### 5 **panels, and freezer floor panels. A** 

### 6 **structural panel would be one that is used to** 

### 7 **construct the wall or a ceiling of a walk-in** 

### 8 **and a floor panel, obviously a panel used to** 

### 9 **construct the floor of a walk-in freezer.** 

### 10 **There's no comment box, but are** 

### 11 **there any comments on these proposed** 

### 12 **equipment classes?** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Harmon.** 

### 14 **MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis. In the** 

### 15 **printed comments there or in the whole** 

### 16 **paperwork, you stated that most floor panels** 

### 17 **have structural members and probably 85** 

### 18 **percent of the floor panels that we build** 

### 19 **don't need structural members because they're** 

### 20 **going in restaurants. Well, we build a** 

### 21 **superfloor, AmeriTuff is our name for it,** 

### 22 **that has that extra structural members, but**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 that's under 15 percent of what we build. So**  

### 2 **most of our floor panels are very similar or** 

### 3 **are the same R-value, U-values, what have you** 

### 4 **as the structural panels. So I'm not sure** 

### 5 **why we necessarily have to have this total** 

### 6 **separation because they're separate classes** 

### 7 **within floor panels.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: How would you** 

### 9 **-- this gets modified.** 

### 10 **Fred.** 

### 11 **Pardon me, I misspoke. Harmon, can** 

### 12 **you say how this should be modified or should** 

### 13 **we turn it to Fred?** 

### 14 **MR. LEWIS: I am just saying within** 

### 15 **the structural floors there's going to be** 

### 16 **some differentiation because there's a true** 

### 17 **structural floor, but then there's all the** 

### 18 **other floors. So we'll provide a comment for** 

### 19 **that. But I don't think you want to have the** 

### 20 **rating on all your floors have to be rating** 

### 21 **on our worst energy efficient floor that you** 

### 22 **build ten percent of the time.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred, and if**  

### 2 **there's some actual words that would modify** 

### 3 **what's here in the slide, that would be** 

### 4 **helpful.** 

### 5 **Fred?** 

### 6 **MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I may** 

### 7 **have misunderstood what Harmon said, but** 

### 8 **there are different R-value minimums for** 

### 9 **floors and walls and that's not what you're** 

### 10 **questioning? Okay. Thank you.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, anybody** 

### 12 **else commenting on this? Okay, we're moving** 

### 13 **on.** 

### 14 **MS. DEGITZ: For refrigeration** 

### 15 **systems, DOE is proposing separate equipment** 

### 16 **classes for medium temperature versus low** 

### 17 **temperature systems. A low temperature** 

### 18 **system would be at or below 32 degrees** 

### 19 **Fahrenheit and medium temp would be above.** 

### 20 **We're also proposing separate** 

### 21 **classes for dedicated versus multiplex** 

### 22 **condensing systems. A dedicated condensing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 system has only one condensing unit serving a**  

### 2 **walk-in which may have one or more unit** 

### 3 **coolers. A multiplex system consists of a** 

### 4 **unit cooler going into a compressor rack or a** 

### 5 **condensing system which would also serve** 

### 6 **other pieces of equipment. In the multiplex** 

### 7 **case, DOE proposes only to cover the unit** 

### 8 **cooler.** 

### 9 **For dedicated condensing systems,** 

### 10 **DOE is also proposing to have separate** 

### 11 **equipment classes for indoor versus outdoor** 

### 12 **applications. This is because outdoor** 

### 13 **systems are exposed to a wider range of** 

### 14 **temperatures and are rated differently** 

### 15 **according to the test procedure.** 

### 16 **Also, dedicated condensing systems** 

### 17 **will be broken down into small and large** 

### 18 **systems. A small system is at or below 9,000** 

### 19 **BTUs per hour. And this is because smaller** 

### 20 **systems tend to be less efficient. They also** 

### 21 **have fewer compressors that they can select** 

### 22 **from.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 Are there any questions from the**  

### 2 **refrigeration equipment classes?** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We'll start** 

### 4 **here with Mike.** 

### 5 **MR. STRAUB: This is Mike Straub.** 

### 6 **The breakdown of the small versus large** 

### 7 **systems, I don't think DOE looked at a broad** 

### 8 **enough range of capacities. Fifty-four** 

### 9 **thousand is pretty small considering up to** 

### 10 **3,000 square feet when you get up to 190,000** 

### 11 **BTUs in that range. When you get much larger** 

### 12 **size equipment, the condenser surface gets** 

### 13 **that much larger and so the air mover portion** 

### 14 **of the energy consumption gets much larger,** 

### 15 **so I think you need more graduations.** 

### 16 **MS. DEGITZ: Do you have specific** 

### 17 **graduations that you would recommend?** 

### 18 **MR. STRAUB: Yes, I can do that.** 

### 19 **MS. DEGITZ: That would be great.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That would be** 

### 21 **greater.** 

### 22 **Robert?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 MR. WILKINS: Just to point out this**  

### 2 **might be moot if we go to the other approach** 

### 3 **of bifurcating the thing.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. DOE** 

### 5 **needs to be covered. Right.** 

### 6 **MS. DEGITZ: Rebecca has a comment.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Use the** 

### 8 **microphone. Thank you.** 

### 9 **MS. LEGETT: If we do bifurcate, can** 

### 10 **you suggest classes, equipment classes and** 

### 11 **equipment breakdown types in that event?** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 13 **Robert?** 

### 14 **MR. WILKINS: Yes, I think we could.** 

### 15 **MR. STRAUB: This is Mike Straub,** 

### 16 **yes, we could.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks, Mike.** 

### 18 **Jon.** 

### 19 **MR. McHUGH: So rather than having** 

### 20 **dedicated condensing versus multiplex** 

### 21 **condensing, we might look at the history with** 

### 22 **the commercial refrigeration equipment**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 proceeding and look at the concept of self**  

### 2 **contained versus remote condensing. That** 

### 3 **would address splitting the unit cooler from** 

### 4 **the condensing unit when they're separate.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We have a** 

### 6 **comment from an individual joining us via the** 

### 7 **web. And this is Jeff Van -- and Jeff, I'm** 

### 8 **unclear about how to say your last name, it's** 

### 9 **Sloun, perhaps. "Has DOE considered using** 

### 10 **manufacturers' third party thermal testing** 

### 11 **results in a thermal performance calculator** 

### 12 **such as WUFI for compliance?"** 

### 13 **Doug?** 

### 14 **MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.** 

### 15 **Not that I'm aware of at the moment, but if** 

### 16 **he wants to provide more additional** 

### 17 **information on that, his comments will** 

### 18 **certainly be considered.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 20 **Jeff. So send in those comments and describe** 

### 21 **the utility and benefit.** 

### 22 **MR. RAWALD: That would be helpful.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Fred?**  

### 2 **Harmon. Harmon.** 

### 3 **MR. LEWIS: Yes, Harmon Lewis. We** 

### 4 **sell about 30 percent of our refrigeration** 

### 5 **systems with pre-charged interconnecting** 

### 6 **lines. Sometimes the condensing unit sits on** 

### 7 **top of the walk-in indoors. Sometimes it's** 

### 8 **outdoors up to 50 feet away. So it's a** 

### 9 **package system coming out of our factory with** 

### 10 **quick couples. We obviously know the** 

### 11 **efficiency of that because we built the whole** 

### 12 **system. So this needs to not just because** 

### 13 **the condensing unit is away from the walk-in,** 

### 14 **it doesn't have to fall under a separate** 

### 15 **category.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Jon.** 

### 17 **MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond. We have** 

### 18 **a concern for a particular scenario. Let's** 

### 19 **say if there's a manufacturer who makes a** 

### 20 **unit cooler, that unit cooler model XYZ could** 

### 21 **be used in an indoor system and an outdoor** 

### 22 **system and then it would have specifications**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 for two different metrics. It would have to**  

### 2 **meet standards for two separate metrics for** 

### 3 **these two different classes. So that** 

### 4 **manufacturer may be designed -- specific that** 

### 5 **unit cooler designed for an outdoor system,** 

### 6 **but it could also be used as an indoor system** 

### 7 **depending upon how the contractor assembles** 

### 8 **the system. So that's just a concern we** 

### 9 **would like to have considered.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And in** 

### 11 **writing. Final comments on this segment?** 

### 12 **Okay.** 

### 13 **MS. DEGITZ: There are three** 

### 14 **equipment classes that DOE is proposing not** 

### 15 **to amend standards or propose new standards** 

### 16 **for. These include cooler floor panels,** 

### 17 **display panels, and blast freezer** 

### 18 **refrigeration systems. DOE found that most** 

### 19 **walk-in coolers are built on a concrete slab.** 

### 20 **Additionally, EPCA did not propose R-value** 

### 21 **requirement for cooler floor panels.** 

### 22 **Following this structure, DOE is not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 proposing a new standard for cooler floor**  

### 2 **panels.** 

### 3 **A display panel may be a type of** 

### 4 **panel that you would see in a beer cave,** 

### 5 **basically a big window, as Harvey described.** 

### 6 **And takes up a very small percentage of the** 

### 7 **market. And DOE found that there would be** 

### 8 **extremely limited savings potential.** 

### 9 **Also, blast freezers make up a small** 

### 10 **percentage of the walk-in market. And DOE is** 

### 11 **tentatively proposing to apply the same** 

### 12 **standards to blast freezer refrigeration** 

### 13 **systems as to storage freezer refrigeration** 

### 14 **systems unless the Department finds that** 

### 15 **blast freezers would have difficulty** 

### 16 **complying with DOE's standards.** 

### 17 **Are there any comments on these** 

### 18 **exclusions?** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Read the** 

### 20 **comment box, "tentative decision not to** 

### 21 **propose standards for cooler floor panels,** 

### 22 **display panels, or blast freezer**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 refrigeration systems." So let's try to be**  

### 2 **specific on these comments.** 

### 3 **Guy?** 

### 4 **MR. SENTER: Blast freezers.** 

### 5 **There's also blast chillers that are on the** 

### 6 **market. Blast freezers can be larger** 

### 7 **devices. Blast chillers are typically six by** 

### 8 **four feet. And so I'm a little curious if** 

### 9 **you in your market analysis were not able to** 

### 10 **differentiate or didn't realize there was a** 

### 11 **differentiation. So if -- and if you are not** 

### 12 **going to regulate blast chillers, please add** 

### 13 **that.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do you want** 

### 15 **to make a qualitative statement about whether** 

### 16 **this is a good idea not to propose standards** 

### 17 **for these?** 

### 18 **MR. SENTER: Oh no.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike.** 

### 20 **MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub, quick** 

### 21 **comment. Is there clarity with respect to** 

### 22 **definition as to what a blast freezer is or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1 is that left up to the interpretation of**  

### 2 **whoever is making that determination?** 

### 3 **MS. DEGITZ: Rebecca might be better** 

### 4 **able to answer this question.** 

### 5 **MS. LEGETT: Yes. We don't have a** 

### 6 **definition for blast freezer now. If you'd** 

### 7 **like to suggest -- if you'd like them to be** 

### 8 **differentiated and you'd like to suggest a** 

### 9 **definition, and can help DOE better** 

### 10 **differentiate that, that would be good.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 12 **Mr. McHugh: California's Title 24** 

### 13 **building standard, I believe has a definition** 

### 14 **of blast freezer. It has to do with CFM per** 

### 15 **ton or something like that. My expectation** 

### 16 **is that the energy consumption is different** 

### 17 **because of the fan energy. And if DOE -- so** 

### 18 **it may make sense for DOE not to regulate** 

### 19 **this class of equipment. If that's the case,** 

### 20 **I believe the State of California would be** 

### 21 **very interested in DOE identifying that blast** 

### 22 **coolers are not regulated and therefore not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 preempted from state regulation.**  

### 2 **MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. I** 

### 3 **would like to suggest that a definition from** 

### 4 **the industry folks would be helpful at least** 

### 5 **for us to consider. So if you do have one** 

### 6 **you do want to suggest, we would consider it.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred.** 

### 8 **MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I think** 

### 9 **the current standard really does define those** 

### 10 **products out of the standard because these** 

### 11 **are -- this standard is designed for storage,** 

### 12 **food storage and what we're talking about are** 

### 13 **rapid pulldowns, blast freezers, quick** 

### 14 **chillers, things -- equipment that moves,** 

### 15 **changes temperature very quickly. They're** 

### 16 **not designed for storage at all. You put it** 

### 17 **in, bring it down. It's gone. Then you go** 

### 18 **put it in the freezer. But it's not a walk** 

### 19 **in and it's not designed for storage. I** 

### 20 **think we actually say that.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So do I take** 

### 22 **it that's an endorsement of DOE's approach?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1 MR. MINELLI: To eliminate them,**  

### 2 **yes.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. I** 

### 4 **was searching for that.** 

### 5 **Harmon?** 

### 6 **MR. LEWIS: Yes, Harmon Lewis.** 

### 7 **Similarly, the blast chillers that we sell,** 

### 8 **you're going to come from 140 degrees down to** 

### 9 **45 degrees in two hours. It's not food** 

### 10 **storage at all once it gets to 45, they push** 

### 11 **it into our walk-in cooler. So it's totally** 

### 12 **separate. But this should be also amended to** 

### 13 **show not only blast freezers, but blast** 

### 14 **chillers.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Joanna Mauer.** 

### 16 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I think** 

### 17 **it's an important concept and what I'm** 

### 18 **hearing is that the regulation is aimed at** 

### 19 **storage and these other devices, the rapid** 

### 20 **pulldown blast chillers, blast freezers,** 

### 21 **things like that are manufacturing equipment.** 

### 22 **They're manufacturing process equipment.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1 They are not storage equipment and therefore**  

### 2 **I think are excluded under the legislation** 

### 3 **automatically and need not concern us.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 5 **Joanna.** 

### 6 **MS. MAUER: Laura, could you please** 

### 7 **restate? I got a little confused about what** 

### 8 **DOE's proposal is regarding blast freezers.** 

### 9 **MS. DEGITZ: So for blast freezers,** 

### 10 **DOE is proposing to apply the same standards** 

### 11 **to blast freezers as to storage freezer** 

### 12 **systems. I think Rebecca might be able to** 

### 13 **better clarify what the Department intends.** 

### 14 **MS. LEGETT: So that's what we've** 

### 15 **proposed, what Laura said. What we have also** 

### 16 **considered, I believe we've considered not** 

### 17 **covering them if DOE finds that blast freezer** 

### 18 **refrigeration systems would have difficulty** 

### 19 **complying with the standards which is what** 

### 20 **I'm hearing from several of you. So there** 

### 21 **are several avenues that DOE could take. SO** 

### 22 **please make your recommendation.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.**  

### 2 **MR. McHUGH: This is really more of** 

### 3 **a question than a statement and maybe some of** 

### 4 **the panel manufacturers can describe their** 

### 5 **thinking. For display panels, is the** 

### 6 **rationale behind not covering display panels** 

### 7 **is that there's a large fraction of** 

### 8 **structural elements in there and therefore** 

### 9 **they would have a lower overall U-factor? Is** 

### 10 **that the sort of intention?** 

### 11 **MS. DEGITZ: The rationale is solely** 

### 12 **because we thought they made up a very small** 

### 13 **percentage of the market. And there was very** 

### 14 **limited savings potential.** 

### 15 **MR. McHUGH: And for the folks who** 

### 16 **are panel manufacturers, do you folks** 

### 17 **normally make these components and the** 

### 18 **display panels?** 

### 19 **MR. LEWIS: No, the large windows we** 

### 20 **would buy, we wouldn't make if that's what** 

### 21 **you're talking about.** 

### 22 **MR. McHUGH: Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's go on**  

### 2 **to the next slide.** 

### 3 **MS. DEGITZ: DOE then performed a** 

### 4 **market assessment in which it develops a** 

### 5 **preliminary list of technologies that could** 

### 6 **improve the efficiency of a walk-in. All** 

### 7 **these technologies are listed in Chapter 3 of** 

### 8 **the TSD.** 

### 9 **Then it performed a screening** 

### 10 **analysis in which it screened out all the** 

### 11 **technologies that were either not** 

### 12 **technologically feasible; not practicable to** 

### 13 **manufacture, install, and service; had** 

### 14 **adverse impacts on equipment utility or** 

### 15 **availability to customers; and had adverse** 

### 16 **impact on health or safety.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments** 

### 18 **here?** 

### 19 **Robert.** 

### 20 **MR. WILKINS: Just a quick comment.** 

### 21 **Probably on target, but I just remind people** 

### 22 **that by looking at steady state operation it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1 automatically forces you to discard things**  

### 2 **like adaptive controls that enable the system** 

### 3 **to adapt to weather changes and time of use,** 

### 4 **time of day changes which can save a lot of** 

### 5 **energy, but doesn't affect the rating point,** 

### 6 **tremendous amount of energy that doesn't** 

### 7 **affecting the rating point.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 9 **you. Additional comments here?** 

### 10 **We're due for a break. Let's take a** 

### 11 **break. It's about -- I'd like to say it's a** 

### 12 **little past 10:50 which means I'd like to** 

### 13 **have us back here to resume at 5 minutes** 

### 14 **after 11.** 

### 15 **You must wear this badge when you're** 

### 16 **walking around in the Forrestal Building and** 

### 17 **there are restrooms on both ends of the hall.** 

### 18 **I think we're a little bit behind** 

### 19 **schedule, if not more than a little behind** 

### 20 **schedule. So we're going to press on and** 

### 21 **work probably to at least 12:30 or maybe a** 

### 22 **little later to try and catch up before we go**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1 to lunch. So if that means you need to get**  

### 2 **something to eat, go quickly to the Dunkin'** 

### 3 **Donuts or wherever you're going, but go** 

### 4 **quickly so we can resume at 5 minutes after** 

### 5 **11.** 

### 6 **For those of you who are not** 

### 7 **familiar, down on the ground floor, hang a** 

### 8 **left and there is a Dunkin' Donuts and a** 

### 9 **Subway shop there. Go quickly. Go quickly.** 

### 10 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 11 **matter went off the record at 10:53 a.m. and** 

### 12 **resumed at 11:06 a.m.)** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We are going** 

### 14 **to proceed now where we left off with** 

### 15 **engineering analysis and we're going to hear** 

### 16 **from Rebecca Legett. Please take your seats** 

### 17 **and stop talking.** 

### 18 **Harvey, I'm going to come over there** 

### 19 **in a minute.** 

### 20 **(Laughter.)** 

### 21 **He thinks I'm fooling.** 

### 22 **Okay, Rebecca.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1 MS. LEGETT: Hi, everyone. Thanks**  

### 2 **again for everyone who is here today and** 

### 3 **everyone listening in on the webinar. Right** 

### 4 **now I'm going to cover the engineering** 

### 5 **analysis. And I'm going to go over the** 

### 6 **methodology at kind of a high level and** 

### 7 **hopefully give you all as much opportunity as** 

### 8 **possible to make comments and ask questions.** 

### 9 **One thing that would be really** 

### 10 **helpful in this section is we have been** 

### 11 **talking about several of these concepts at a** 

### 12 **high level. Is my mic picking up?** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 14 **MS. LEGETT: Okay. We've been** 

### 15 **talking about many of these concepts -- to** 

### 16 **the extent that you can make specific** 

### 17 **comments about what DOE should do from a** 

### 18 **practical level, we've covered a lot of these** 

### 19 **concepts, but then now what should DOE do** 

### 20 **about it? How will this affect our analysis?** 

### 21 **That would be very helpful for us to know.** 

### 22 **So again at a high level, the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1 engineering methodology was to really get at**  

### 2 **what is the cost and energy of more efficient** 

### 3 **technologies for this equipment. So first we** 

### 4 **determined representative units within each** 

### 5 **equipment class. Laura just covered the** 

### 6 **equipment classes.** 

### 7 **Define characteristics of the** 

### 8 **baseline for each class, as well as design** 

### 9 **options which can be implemented to reduce** 

### 10 **energy use or improve efficiency.** 

### 11 **Then we modeled the equipment energy** 

### 12 **performance and cost. And finally, we** 

### 13 **developed cost-efficiency curves that** 

### 14 **illustrate the relationship between cost,** 

### 15 **manufacturing cost and efficiency. And I'll** 

### 16 **show you a couple of examples later on in the** 

### 17 **presentation.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis?** 

### 19 **MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. This is a** 

### 20 **question I'm having because you said you** 

### 21 **developed the energy curves or developed the** 

### 22 **cost efficiency curves. In that cost, you're**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1 looking at the cost of the improvements?**  

### 2 **MS. LEGETT: Yes, we're looking at** 

### 3 **the cost of both the baseline model and** 

### 4 **improvements that you make to that model.** 

### 5 **MR. CRAIG: Thank you.** 

### 6 **MS. LEGETT: So within each** 

### 7 **equipment class, we picked a few different** 

### 8 **units that we thought would cover the market.** 

### 9 **We've already gotten a few comments to this** 

### 10 **effect. But here are some of the** 

### 11 **characteristics that we tried to cover.** 

### 12 **For panels and doors, we analyzed a** 

### 13 **range of different sizes. For non-display** 

### 14 **doors, we assumed a small viewing window in** 

### 15 **the door. For refrigeration systems, we** 

### 16 **analyzed systems ranging in capacity from** 

### 17 **6,000 BTUs per hour to 96,000. We've heard** 

### 18 **some comments that maybe that should be even** 

### 19 **larger. So we'd appreciate written comments** 

### 20 **on these sizes and whether we are adequately** 

### 21 **covering the market.** 

### 22 **In response to a comment or several**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1 comments, in fact, on the preliminary**  

### 2 **analysis, we analyzed a few different types** 

### 3 **of compressors for our refrigeration system.** 

### 4 **Hermetic reciprocating, scroll, and semi** 

### 5 **hermetic.** 

### 6 **So now I'll open it up for comments** 

### 7 **on the representative sizes, the** 

### 8 **representative units, particularly whether** 

### 9 **we're missing anything, whether we need to** 

### 10 **look at other types of units.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments** 

### 12 **here.** 

### 13 **MS. LEGETT: And again, we'd also** 

### 14 **appreciate those in written form, if you** 

### 15 **don't have it on you.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 17 **Harmon.** 

### 18 **MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis. The non** 

### 19 **display doors, each having a small viewing** 

### 20 **window, we probably -- less than 20 percent** 

### 21 **of the passage doors that we would sell would** 

### 22 **have a window. So I don't know that it's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1 going to throw out anything, but it's not the**  

### 2 **norm. It's more the exception.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 4 **That's helpful. Additional comments? Okay.** 

### 5 **MS. LEGETT: Moving on to baseline** 

### 6 **units. The baseline model typically, not** 

### 7 **always, but typically, represents the most** 

### 8 **common baseline model, relatively low** 

### 9 **efficiency in comparison to the market. They** 

### 10 **were all assumed to meet the existing energy** 

### 11 **conservation standards in EPCA, so for** 

### 12 **instance all the refrigeration systems we** 

### 13 **analyzed with ECM or with evaporator fan** 

### 14 **motors of less than one horsepower, those** 

### 15 **were all ECM motors. We didn't analyze** 

### 16 **anything else.** 

### 17 **The baseline serves as a reference** 

### 18 **point from which DOE can measure impacts due** 

### 19 **to these amended standards. So this is** 

### 20 **probably the more relevant slide to you all.** 

### 21 **This is how we characterize the baseline** 

### 22 **units. Three and a half inches of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1 polyurethane foam for structural cooler**  

### 2 **panels and freezer floor panels. Four inches** 

### 3 **of foam for structural freezer panels.** 

### 4 **Several characteristics of display** 

### 5 **doors, again, we picked characteristics that** 

### 6 **all complied with the requirements in EPCA.** 

### 7 **For refrigeration systems, again,** 

### 8 **compliance with EPCA. We had a comment on** 

### 9 **TD, temperature difference earlier, so this** 

### 10 **is what we assumed in the baseline, but we** 

### 11 **would appreciate comments on any of these** 

### 12 **assumptions and whether you think they should** 

### 13 **be different.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: This is** 

### 15 **important, this stuff. Let's get as much** 

### 16 **comment as we can get here.** 

### 17 **Guy.** 

### 18 **MR. SENTER: Okay, for the non** 

### 19 **display doors, once again I'd like to direct** 

### 20 **the DOE's attention to the door cap, door** 

### 21 **frame interface there where the periphery and** 

### 22 **I notice your evaluation says nothing about**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123**  **1 the heater core. So I think the majority of**  

### 2 **the heat gain through the door is along that** 

### 3 **periphery.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 5 **you.** 

### 6 **Mike.** 

### 7 **MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub. I want to** 

### 8 **ask if the DOE would share with us the** 

### 9 **modeling tool that was used, as well as the** 

### 10 **data sets for the baseline as well as the** 

### 11 **technology, the trial standard levels so that** 

### 12 **we can go verify our calculations, agree with** 

### 13 **your calculations and see if there's been any** 

### 14 **errors in either our calculations or yours.** 

### 15 **MS. LEGETT: Thank you.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Pardon me,** 

### 17 **Jon.** 

### 18 **MR. LEMMOND: I have a question. I** 

### 19 **was wondering if there's any tests conducted** 

### 20 **to validate your modeled energy use? And if** 

### 21 **so if that would be publicly available? Were** 

### 22 **there any tests to validate the energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 performance of the baseline?**  

### 2 **MS. LEGETT: For?** 

### 3 **MR. LEMMOND: For refrigeration** 

### 4 **systems specifically, but I'd be curious** 

### 5 **about all of the components, all the baseline** 

### 6 **components.** 

### 7 **MS. LEGETT: As of right now, there** 

### 8 **has been some limited testing conducted of** 

### 9 **refrigeration systems. We haven't covered** 

### 10 **all the classes.** 

### 11 **MR. LEMMOND: Were those test** 

### 12 **results compared to the modeled results?** 

### 13 **MS. LEGETT: I'll have to get back** 

### 14 **to you on that.** 

### 15 **MR. LEMMOND: Thank you.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: David.** 

### 17 **MR. GRIFE: David Grife, Arctic** 

### 18 **Industries. I just want a clarification of** 

### 19 **panels. So you're assuming there's two types** 

### 20 **of panels. One is a foamed in place with a** 

### 21 **wood frame and the other one is a solid core** 

### 22 **foam that's a minimum of 3.5 inches for a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 cooler and 4 for a freezer, is that what**  

### 2 **you're saying there?** 

### 3 **MS. LEGETT: We did consider both** 

### 4 **the foamed in place and the solid core type** 

### 5 **panels, if that's what you're asking.** 

### 6 **MR. GRIFE: I'm not really sure how** 

### 7 **-- I'm reading what's written so I'm not** 

### 8 **really clear. You're saying there's a** 

### 9 **baseline of panels. So you're defining there** 

### 10 **are two types of panels there. Is that's** 

### 11 **what that's stating?** 

### 12 **MS. LEGETT: Which two types of** 

### 13 **panels?** 

### 14 **MR. GRIFE: A foamed in place** 

### 15 **polyurethane with a wood frame and is that** 

### 16 **different from a 3-inch foam for structural?** 

### 17 **MS. LEGETT: I'll turn that over to** 

### 18 **Laura.** 

### 19 **MS. DEGITZ: I might be able to help** 

### 20 **clarify. So we're trying to describe three** 

### 21 **different types of panels here. The ones we** 

### 22 **went over earlier, the structural freezer,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 structural cooler, and the freezer floor. A**  

### 2 **structural freezer panel is four inches of** 

### 3 **foam. It has a wood frame and we're using** 

### 4 **polyurethane. The cooler and freezer floor** 

### 5 **panel has 3.5 inches of foam also wood frame.** 

### 6 **And as we described earlier, the freezer** 

### 7 **floor panel has some additional structural** 

### 8 **materials in there as well.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So how many** 

### 10 **total panels is that?** 

### 11 **MS. DEGITZ: Three.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: But are you** 

### 13 **stating then the only panel is a foam in** 

### 14 **place panel?** 

### 15 **MS. DEGITZ: Yes, we only evaluated** 

### 16 **foam in place polyurethane.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: As the** 

### 18 **baseline unit.** 

### 19 **MS. DEGITZ: As the baseline.** 

### 20 **MR. GRIFE: Well, there are some** 

### 21 **manufacturers who also use solid core foam as** 

### 22 **well as foam in place.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 MS. DEGITZ: We're aware of that and**  

### 2 **we discussed that in the notice. There's** 

### 3 **more details in there. We recognize there** 

### 4 **are other types of foam and we determined** 

### 5 **that the polyurethane -- we thought that the** 

### 6 **polyurethane was the majority of the market.** 

### 7 **MR. GRIFE: And therefore the other** 

### 8 **is not acceptable?** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No, no, no.** 

### 10 **MR. RAWALD: If I could jump in here** 

### 11 **real quick. This is Doug Rawald. First of** 

### 12 **all, our notice is not meant to imply there's** 

### 13 **only one type of foam that can be used by** 

### 14 **manufacturers. We base our assumptions upon** 

### 15 **testing of a polyurethane model based upon an** 

### 16 **assumption that that represents the lion's** 

### 17 **share of the market. If an assumption is** 

### 18 **inaccurate and if folks disagree with that,** 

### 19 **we ask that you and your comments explain to** 

### 20 **us how you think the market actually is** 

### 21 **represented differently.** 

### 22 **So if polystyrene, for example,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 extruded or expanded, is a larger percent of**  

### 2 **the market than we anticipate -- or we** 

### 3 **assume, please tell us that so we can change** 

### 4 **our assumptions accordingly.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Laura, do you** 

### 6 **want to add on here? Laura?** 

### 7 **MS. DEGITZ: Just to reinforce on** 

### 8 **that. This is just the baseline that we** 

### 9 **evaluated. If a panel that has a different** 

### 10 **type of core foam meets the standard, that is** 

### 11 **perfectly acceptable to use in the market.** 

### 12 **It's just the energy standard.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon.** 

### 14 **MR. LEWIS: Your definition of your** 

### 15 **baseline unit being most energy inefficient,** 

### 16 **I think some of those would apply, but it's** 

### 17 **not the most common panel is a foam in place** 

### 18 **urethane with a wood frame. Probably 85** 

### 19 **percent of foam in place manufacturers don't** 

### 20 **use a wood frame or a hard rail.** 

### 21 **So again, I'm not sure where you** 

### 22 **stepped from that, but you've not started**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 with the most common. You started with an**  

### 2 **energy inefficient one, yes, but you could** 

### 3 **also have started at two inch thickness.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 5 **you.** 

### 6 **Ellis.** 

### 7 **MR. CRAIG: One of my concerns is** 

### 8 **that if we use this baseline and it's not** 

### 9 **correct as far as what's mostly out there,** 

### 10 **then we use this number to calculate how much** 

### 11 **money we're saving and how much CO2 we're** 

### 12 **cutting away. And so this needs to be right** 

### 13 **of what's really out there. If what's out** 

### 14 **there is 15 percent more efficient than this** 

### 15 **is, then the energy goes down. The energy** 

### 16 **goes down, then all of a sudden we're not** 

### 17 **saving that much money. So the fourth** 

### 18 **category that we pick may be inappropriate** 

### 19 **because we calculated this wrong.** 

### 20 **I agree with the other manufacturers** 

### 21 **in here. That's probably not the significant** 

### 22 **amount of panels that are out there that are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 being manufactured that way presently.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred.** 

### 3 **Charlie, I'm going to hear from the** 

### 4 **manufacturing cluster first.** 

### 5 **Fred.** 

### 6 **MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I just** 

### 7 **wanted to comment. I thought initially your** 

### 8 **baseline for panels was the current R-value** 

### 9 **minimum is 3.5. And why the wood frame is in** 

### 10 **there, I don't know. It's obviously causing** 

### 11 **some concern in this group. I'm not sure** 

### 12 **what that -- we have to -- how do we align** 

### 13 **with that baseline? We have to improve on** 

### 14 **that?** 

### 15 **MS. LEGETT: So the baseline is just** 

### 16 **a base. This is just analytical. This is** 

### 17 **just part of the analysis. The proposed** 

### 18 **standard is what you would be required to** 

### 19 **comply with and that builds upon the** 

### 20 **baseline. If you're a manufacturer and you** 

### 21 **think this doesn't characterize the baseline,** 

### 22 **then you can give us a description of what**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131**  **1 the majority of the market is. We've heard**  

### 2 **from a few manufacturers. If you're in the** 

### 3 **webinar and you're also a manufacturer and** 

### 4 **you have a different view, please send that** 

### 5 **all to us.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie.** 

### 7 **MR. MINELLI: One more comment --** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred, please,** 

### 9 **continue.** 

### 10 **MR. MINELLI: Typically, the doors** 

### 11 **do not have a complete frame. There is** 

### 12 **backing of some type, wood or not wood, FRP,** 

### 13 **some type of product, but not necessarily** 

### 14 **wood frame in a passage door. Sliders are** 

### 15 **all different, but not a passage door.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 17 **Charlie.** 

### 18 **MR. MINELLI: Thank you.** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens,** 

### 20 **maybe I can recharacterize this and clear up** 

### 21 **some confusion of mine and anybody else's.** 

### 22 **It's my understanding that the baseline units**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132**  **1 are and this is a little different than a**  

### 2 **typical rulemaking that I participate in** 

### 3 **because there's already a standard for a lot** 

### 4 **of products that would then comprise the** 

### 5 **majority of the market like a SEER 13 air** 

### 6 **conditioner, you know, that's the majority of** 

### 7 **the market and it's the minimum standard.** 

### 8 **In this case, what I understood is** 

### 9 **that you have a panel here that is kind of** 

### 10 **the minimally compliant panel to the** 

### 11 **prescriptive standards that are now on the** 

### 12 **books, regardless of whether that's the panel** 

### 13 **that everybody makes. It's still a minimum** 

### 14 **cost, minimally compliant panel that meets** 

### 15 **the current letter of the law. Is that** 

### 16 **correct?** 

### 17 **MS. LEGETT: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay, thank you.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 20 **Charlie.** 

### 21 **John Cymbalsky.** 

### 22 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133**  **1 DOE. And I want to kind of get to Ellis'**  

### 2 **question of how -- this is going to be talked** 

### 3 **about later in the shipments analysis, but** 

### 4 **what Charlie stated is exactly right and then** 

### 5 **what happens is we build a shipments model to** 

### 6 **say what the market is actually doing. So** 

### 7 **the minimally compliant one may or may not** 

### 8 **have the biggest market share out there now.** 

### 9 **But when we do the arithmetic, we account for** 

### 10 **what the market shares are and so that when** 

### 11 **we compare levels from the baseline, we get** 

### 12 **the math right so that we know that the** 

### 13 **energy savings, the dollar savings, the** 

### 14 **carbon savings, all fall into what is** 

### 15 **actually happening in the market through the** 

### 16 **shipments model. We're going to talk about** 

### 17 **that at length later this afternoon, but I** 

### 18 **just wanted to clarify that now.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 20 **MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond. I have a** 

### 21 **clarifying question for Doug. I thought I** 

### 22 **heard you say that the baseline panel**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134**  **1 performance was built upon test data and I'm**  

### 2 **not sure -- I'm confused on whether it was** 

### 3 **actually, the energy performance was built on** 

### 4 **test data or just an analysis.** 

### 5 **MR. RAWALD: I may have misspoke.** 

### 6 **So I want to defer to Rebecca on what they** 

### 7 **base the baseline analysis on, but we're** 

### 8 **definitely basing it upon modeling with the** 

### 9 **polyurethane as opposed to the polystyrene.** 

### 10 **That's what I was trying to point out there.** 

### 11 **MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond. If there** 

### 12 **is any test data, again, I would like to** 

### 13 **emphasize that we'd like to take a look at** 

### 14 **it.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 16 **you. Additional comments here? Have we** 

### 17 **heard anything else -- have we covered all of** 

### 18 **these four panels, display doors, non-display** 

### 19 **doors, refrigeration systems?** 

### 20 **Harmon.** 

### 21 **MR. LEWIS: Since we buy the** 

### 22 **condensing units from other people in this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135**  **1 room like Heat Transfer or Heatcraft, are you**  

### 2 **all comfortable with the 25 degree TD on** 

### 3 **medium temp. condensers and the 20 degree TD** 

### 4 **on freezer condensers?** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike.** 

### 6 **MR. STRAUB: I think the numbers are** 

### 7 **probably a little bit lower than industry** 

### 8 **standard, but I was planning to prepare to** 

### 9 **add that to the comments.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 11 **you.** 

### 12 **Guy? Microphone.** 

### 13 **MR. SENTER: Guy Senter. On the** 

### 14 **non-display doors again, your calculations** 

### 15 **seem to indicate a usage of around 11 watts** 

### 16 **for a baseline door, something not much more** 

### 17 **than that and our typical cooler doors right** 

### 18 **now draw about 1.15 amps. So do the math.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. We're** 

### 20 **moving on.** 

### 21 **MS. LEGETT: Moving on to design** 

### 22 **options. These are technologies that pass**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136**  **1 the screening analysis which we discussed**  

### 2 **earlier that manufacturers can use to improve** 

### 3 **the rated efficiency or energy consumption.** 

### 4 **That's a really important point here. We did** 

### 5 **not -- and there's really no practical way** 

### 6 **for us to -- consider options that would not** 

### 7 **improve the rated efficiency as tested by the** 

### 8 **DOE test procedure because the test procedure** 

### 9 **is what's used to certify.** 

### 10 **So the efficiency improvement and** 

### 11 **cost of each design option are described in** 

### 12 **detail in Chapter 5. This is our request for** 

### 13 **comment, but we're requesting comment on the** 

### 14 **design options, their cost, their energy** 

### 15 **impact, whether they are technologically** 

### 16 **feasible, and whether they might lessen the** 

### 17 **utility or performance of the products in** 

### 18 **current uses.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's do that** 

### 20 **one first.** 

### 21 **MS. LEGETT: I'm going to flip to** 

### 22 **the next slide which has the list of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137**  **1 design options. I also want to say that some**  

### 2 **of these options encompass kind of multiple** 

### 3 **levels of performance. For instance, under** 

### 4 **display doors, improve display and window** 

### 5 **glass system performance improvement.** 

### 6 **There's actually several levels. You add** 

### 7 **additional panes, having different gas fill,** 

### 8 **so just to clarify that.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 10 **Ellis.** 

### 11 **MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. One** 

### 12 **question I have on the panel design, it was** 

### 13 **considered and calculated, I'm assuming the** 

### 14 **impact it would have on a restaurant and on** 

### 15 **the usability of that product out there as it** 

### 16 **takes up a larger percentage of the room** 

### 17 **that's available, so you have to increase the** 

### 18 **size of the room and the available space to** 

### 19 **store and all that. That was considered in** 

### 20 **this proposal?** 

### 21 **MS. LEGETT: I believe it was** 

### 22 **considered in the proposal, but not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138**  **1 necessarily in this analysis. This analysis**  

### 2 **pertains to the manufacturing costs and** 

### 3 **manufacturing efficiency.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert.** 

### 5 **MR. WILKINS: Quick question.** 

### 6 **Robert Wilkins, Danfoss.** 

### 7 **These are design options considered** 

### 8 **in the engineering analysis. Were these** 

### 9 **options included in the baseline for cost** 

### 10 **purposes and efficiency purposes that you** 

### 11 **developed?** 

### 12 **MS. LEGETT: They weren't included** 

### 13 **in the baseline. These are adding on to the** 

### 14 **--** 

### 15 **MR. WILKINS: I'll ask it this way.** 

### 16 **In the model that you have established for** 

### 17 **achieving the proposed, let's say TSL 4, were** 

### 18 **all of these options included or were they** 

### 19 **just considered?** 

### 20 **MS. LEGETT: I'll try to answer your** 

### 21 **question. They were considered as ways that** 

### 22 **manufacturers could meet that standard.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139**  **1 Depending on the standard, you know, not all**  

### 2 **of these are going to be used necessarily.** 

### 3 **They are different levels. Does that make** 

### 4 **sense?** 

### 5 **MR. WILKINS: It makes sense. It's** 

### 6 **a little hard for us to know if we don't know** 

### 7 **what's in TSL 2, 3, or 4, it's a little hard** 

### 8 **for us to make some judgments about them.** 

### 9 **MS. LEGETT: I see. So the list of** 

### 10 **the design options that we assumed** 

### 11 **manufacturers would use to meet the different** 

### 12 **TSLs, there are several tables in Appendix** 

### 13 **10D. So that's where you'll find all that.** 

### 14 **MR. WILKINS: Thank you very much.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike.** 

### 16 **MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub. Again, I** 

### 17 **reiterate the need for the modeling tool as** 

### 18 **well as the data set that was used. And** 

### 19 **then, I guess, specifically where you talked** 

### 20 **about some of these things like improved** 

### 21 **condenser and evaporator, is that something** 

### 22 **where you established a value based on it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140**  **1 appeared that there would be something more**  

### 2 **efficient or did you actually find something** 

### 3 **that's commercially available that does** 

### 4 **provide that level of efficiency improvement?** 

### 5 **MS. LEGETT: To our knowledge, these** 

### 6 **are all commercially available.** 

### 7 **MR. PETERSON: Dean Peterson.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 9 **Dean. Your microphone.** 

### 10 **MR. PETERSON: I believe you** 

### 11 **eliminated the use of hot gas on dedicated** 

### 12 **systems as an improvement option. We do** 

### 13 **build many dedicated systems with hot gas** 

### 14 **defrost, so --** 

### 15 **MS. LEGETT: And does that give you** 

### 16 **an efficiency improvement?** 

### 17 **MR. PETERSON: Yes, it does.** 

### 18 **MS. LEGETT: If you could** 

### 19 **characterize that in comments, that would be** 

### 20 **very helpful for us.** 

### 21 **MR. PETERSON: Thank you.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Who did I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141**  **1 miss?**  

### 2 **Harvey.** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. My now** 

### 4 **customary question is in your survey of the** 

### 5 **industry to establish the technology options** 

### 6 **that were available and used, did you confine** 

### 7 **your search to U.S. products or did you** 

### 8 **extend this to internationally available** 

### 9 **products used in commerce, particularly in** 

### 10 **East Asia and in Europe?** 

### 11 **MS. LEGETT: I believe we focused** 

### 12 **primarily on U.S. manufacturers. There's a** 

### 13 **major Canadian manufacturer as well. Which** 

### 14 **technologies did you have in mind?** 

### 15 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, again.** 

### 16 **It's the concept here that matters. We're** 

### 17 **entering an era of global competition with** 

### 18 **other rulemakings on other products. We have** 

### 19 **seen significant technology options that were** 

### 20 **used abroad, have significant opportunities** 

### 21 **to compete with our manufacturers and this** 

### 22 **DOE activity is a framing of the debate about**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142**  **1 what is possible and what is necessary for**  

### 2 **American competitiveness. And I'm extremely** 

### 3 **disappointed that DOE habitually does not** 

### 4 **look internationally in the comparison of** 

### 5 **technology options that should be considered.** 

### 6 **I would point in particular to the exclusion** 

### 7 **of non-HFC refrigerants in the commercial** 

### 8 **refrigeration exercise we were involved in** 

### 9 **last week as being extremely prejudicial.** 

### 10 **I'm ranting and I'll stop.** 

### 11 **MS. LEGETT: Thank you.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let me make a** 

### 13 **note, a process note. We have a significant** 

### 14 **hum in this room and apparently that's the** 

### 15 **A/C system that's causing that from up above** 

### 16 **us somehow, but as a consequence if everyone** 

### 17 **could get this microphone close to their face** 

### 18 **and speak loudly, that will help us all** 

### 19 **because in the back they're having a hard** 

### 20 **time hearing. Okay?** 

### 21 **Who else has a comment? There's a** 

### 22 **lot of potential here for additional comment**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143**  **1 or maybe you just need more time to put a lot**  

### 2 **of detail in writing. Maybe that's what's** 

### 3 **required at this point. Okay.** 

### 4 **Yes, Ellis.** 

### 5 **MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. It was** 

### 6 **discussed in this, but kind of overlooked.** 

### 7 **We brought up the last time the fact that we** 

### 8 **use a heater wire that's self-regulating** 

### 9 **which it doesn't come on unless it's needed** 

### 10 **versus something that's on 100 percent of the** 

### 11 **time. The specs were written around -- the** 

### 12 **requirements here are written around a heater** 

### 13 **wire that's on all the time no matter whether** 

### 14 **you need it or not. I'd like to know why** 

### 15 **that was not considered as part of this --** 

### 16 **you talk about improvements, well, that's an** 

### 17 **improvement to a non-display door, but yet it** 

### 18 **was kind of just overlooked.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: All right.** 

### 20 **MS. LEGETT: Thank you. Maybe Laura** 

### 21 **has something to add.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Laura.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144**  **1 MS. DEGITZ: We saw your comments**  

### 2 **and considered this as a design option, but** 

### 3 **the way the test procedure is written, we had** 

### 4 **a hard time accounting for that feature. You** 

### 5 **get a credit for time off that your heater** 

### 6 **wire -- you get like a credit for a control** 

### 7 **device.** 

### 8 **We weren't exactly sure how to** 

### 9 **characterize the heater wire and we couldn't** 

### 10 **find any market information about the energy** 

### 11 **consumption of that type of heater wire. If** 

### 12 **you could provide us with more information** 

### 13 **about it, maybe in written comment it would** 

### 14 **help us address that.** 

### 15 **MR. CRAIG: I notice in other areas** 

### 16 **we're adding like light controls and those** 

### 17 **are on and off also, so I don't understand** 

### 18 **why the DOE wouldn't consider even -- it was** 

### 19 **brought up in tests also. It just seems like** 

### 20 **they overlook it because there's not very** 

### 21 **many people doing it, so we just won't pay** 

### 22 **any attention to it. And I hate to see the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145**  **1 DOE pass by something that could save some**  

### 2 **pretty good money just because they don't** 

### 3 **want to deal with it. If you understand what** 

### 4 **I mean -- or don't know how to deal with it,** 

### 5 **I guess.** 

### 6 **MS. DEGITZ: Certainly, if you** 

### 7 **provide us with more information that would** 

### 8 **help us address that feature.** 

### 9 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles Llenza,** 

### 10 **Department of Energy. I don't think we just** 

### 11 **overlooked it. It's just that sometimes we** 

### 12 **don't have any data that can be of utility to** 

### 13 **us or to quantify what that is costing us in** 

### 14 **energy or saving us in energy. So it will be** 

### 15 **important your input.** 

### 16 **MR. CRAIG: Okay, thank you.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon and** 

### 18 **then to Guy.** 

### 19 **MR. LEWIS: Yes, Harmon Lewis. We** 

### 20 **provided that type of data, Charles, to** 

### 21 **Rebecca and the other group and through you** 

### 22 **with our System 100 energy controller on the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 146**  **1 heater wire that controls the percentage of**  

### 2 **time it works and the cut in and cut out** 

### 3 **temps. It's over $100 a door cooler or** 

### 4 **freezer. Each year we sold about 2,000 of** 

### 5 **those. So $200,000 in energy, I think.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do you want** 

### 7 **to follow on, Charlie?** 

### 8 **MR. LEWIS: It is certainly out** 

### 9 **there and could be done by others and I'll** 

### 10 **send you the data on the math that supports** 

### 11 **it.** 

### 12 **MS. DEGITZ: I have a follow-up** 

### 13 **question.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Laura.** 

### 15 **MS. DEGITZ: So it sounds like what** 

### 16 **you're talking about is a control device and** 

### 17 **it sounds like what Ellis Craig is talking** 

### 18 **about is a heater wire that self-regulates,** 

### 19 **where there's no device, is that correct?** 

### 20 **MR. LEWIS: That is correct.** 

### 21 **MS. DEGITZ: I just wanted to** 

### 22 **clarify.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie.**  

### 2 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. In** 

### 3 **both cases, it sounds like the real lack is** 

### 4 **the field impact on energy use of those** 

### 5 **things and my organization is willing to go** 

### 6 **out and actually measure that stuff if we** 

### 7 **know where to find the coolers to measure** 

### 8 **that on. So if you sell anything into the** 

### 9 **four states of the Pacific Northwest, tell me** 

### 10 **where they are and I'll go measure it.** 

### 11 **(Laughter.)** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Guy, you're** 

### 13 **next.** 

### 14 **MR. SENTER: Guy Senter. Yes,** 

### 15 **that's an important metric and it should** 

### 16 **float. There was something in prior, like in** 

### 17 **Appendix A, I believe, with the current** 

### 18 **regulation that there's a 75 percent assumed** 

### 19 **PTO and that really is not correct in the** 

### 20 **field because being able to adjust that PTO** 

### 21 **is the marginal method by which we can** 

### 22 **improve our product. So you could simply**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148**  **1 lower the thermostat setting, buy a different**  

### 2 **thermostat and have remarkable changes across** 

### 3 **your entire line of doors instead of going** 

### 4 **through and changing different wire** 

### 5 **resistances and changing 17 part numbers. So** 

### 6 **that's important. Oh, also for panels,** 

### 7 **pocket connector design should be a metric.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 9 **MS. LEGETT: Thank you.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You're next.** 

### 11 **MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal** 

### 12 **Beloit. I think Heatcraft had made the same** 

### 13 **comments on the motor potentials. For larger** 

### 14 **units, there's the three-phase option as well** 

### 15 **as nowadays we have multi-horsepower ECM** 

### 16 **motors as well as up to 460 volt single and** 

### 17 **three-phase.** 

### 18 **Was any of your evaluations done on** 

### 19 **larger units with those available motor** 

### 20 **technologies?** 

### 21 **MS. LEGETT: We focused on single** 

### 22 **phase. If you have data for three phase**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 149**  **1 energy improvement, we'd appreciate that.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey.** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. I'd like** 

### 4 **to go back to some of the comments on** 

### 5 **features that can save energy whether they're** 

### 6 **controls or self regulating heater wires or** 

### 7 **things like that.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Can you speak** 

### 9 **louder, Harvey? Thank you.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I'd** 

### 11 **like to go back to some of the comments on** 

### 12 **features that can save energy. DOE has** 

### 13 **adopted AHRI 1250 as the basis for the** 

### 14 **refrigeration system and on some of these** 

### 15 **other features are simply not included in how** 

### 16 **DOE measures energy. And consequently unless** 

### 17 **you do a prescriptive standard, it's very** 

### 18 **difficult to see how in the present structure** 

### 19 **DOE can give the appropriate credit to** 

### 20 **features that will save energy, but may not** 

### 21 **show up on AHRI 1250. AHRI 1250 may have** 

### 22 **many advantages such as reproducibility and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 150**  **1 ease of testing, but it may be limited in its**  

### 2 **potential to be an adequate energy descriptor** 

### 3 **for this class of products.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 5 **Rebecca, cue 26. I think some of this** 

### 6 **conversation has been addressing Issue 26.** 

### 7 **I'd like to see if there are other comments** 

### 8 **on 26.** 

### 9 **MS. LEGETT: Twenty-six being** 

### 10 **requesting comment on whether there are** 

### 11 **features or attributes that could lessen the** 

### 12 **utility of these products. That's one of the** 

### 13 **screening criteria. The options considered** 

### 14 **should not reduce or have a negative impact** 

### 15 **on the utility of the product, so we'd** 

### 16 **appreciate any questions about that.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Buzz?** 

### 18 **MR. SCHAEFFER: Buzz Schaeffer. On** 

### 19 **the refrigeration systems on the evaluation,** 

### 20 **was that evaluated as a total package or on** 

### 21 **an individual component level?** 

### 22 **MS. LEGETT: Matched systems,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 151**  **1 dedicated condensing systems were evaluated**  

### 2 **as a whole system. We also evaluated unit** 

### 3 **coolers by themselves that would be connected** 

### 4 **to a multiplex condensing system.** 

### 5 **MR. SCHAEFFER: Are those** 

### 6 **evaluations published already?** 

### 7 **MS. LEGETT: Yes, the evaluations** 

### 8 **should be in Chapter 5 in the engineering** 

### 9 **analysis.** 

### 10 **MR. SCHAEFFER: Thank you.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon?** 

### 12 **MR. McHUGH: For the display doors,** 

### 13 **in evaluating the utility when you looked at,** 

### 14 **I believe, soft coat is in some of the TSL** 

### 15 **levels, we heard comments at the CRE meeting** 

### 16 **that the soft coat had impacts on visible** 

### 17 **light transmittance of the doors and I'm** 

### 18 **wondering if as part of your evaluation** 

### 19 **you're either looking at that utility or** 

### 20 **looking at potentially that there needs to be** 

### 21 **a little bit more light placed into -- so** 

### 22 **that's potentially combined with higher**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 152**  **1 output LED or something like that to evaluate**  

### 2 **the total energy impact.** 

### 3 **MS. DEGITZ: We did try to account** 

### 4 **for the amount of soft coat and how --** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Laura, we** 

### 6 **can't hear you. Take that microphone and** 

### 7 **heave it across the room.** 

### 8 **(Laughter.)** 

### 9 **Put it somewhere where we're not** 

### 10 **going to be frustrated by it.** 

### 11 **MS. DEGITZ: I said we did try to** 

### 12 **account for soft coat and how that would** 

### 13 **impact your visibility into a display walk-in** 

### 14 **which display doors are typically used on.** 

### 15 **And we hope that the levels we picked would** 

### 16 **not impact that, but if you have comments on** 

### 17 **the amount of soft coat that we're using, I** 

### 18 **think Chapter 5 should explicitly state how** 

### 19 **much -- which panes of glass have soft coat.** 

### 20 **That would be helpful if you comment on those** 

### 21 **levels.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 153**  **1 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. If**  

### 2 **I'm not mistaken, the Window software that** 

### 3 **you used to model those things can actually** 

### 4 **put out a VLT number and I'm just wondering** 

### 5 **if you had some sort of minimum VLT below** 

### 6 **which you didn't want to go. I mean is that** 

### 7 **what you used to evaluate that or is that not** 

### 8 **it?** 

### 9 **MS. DEGITZ: We solicited feedback** 

### 10 **from manufacturer interviews to evaluate** 

### 11 **visibility into the doors. We did use Window** 

### 12 **to model these doors and if you have a level** 

### 13 **that you would recommend, we can compare our** 

### 14 **evaluations to that level.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon, oh,** 

### 16 **Charlie, keep going.** 

### 17 **MR. STEPHENS: I will try to provide** 

### 18 **some comments on that. I think we're doing a** 

### 19 **lot of window research right now into that** 

### 20 **and I think I can probably provide some good** 

### 21 **comments along those lines, as long as you** 

### 22 **have -- I just want to verify that you had**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 154**  **1 the VLT numbers coming out of the model.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 3 **MS. DEGITZ: I didn't specifically** 

### 4 **look at them, but if it's capable of** 

### 5 **producing those numbers, then we should be** 

### 6 **able to produce them.** 

### 7 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, it does.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 9 **MR. McHUGH: Related to windows** 

### 10 **again, my understanding is that there wasn't** 

### 11 **a measure that looked at just low-e coatings** 

### 12 **on triple glazed windows, so you had the** 

### 13 **triple glaze without low-e and then you had** 

### 14 **double glazed and then with two suspended** 

### 15 **films. Am I getting that wrong? This is for** 

### 16 **low temperature.** 

### 17 **MS. DEGITZ: I don't remember off** 

### 18 **the top of my head, but I can get back to** 

### 19 **you.** 

### 20 **MR. McHUGH: So I guess the comment** 

### 21 **is is that would be something good to look at** 

### 22 **as a low cost efficiency measure.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 155**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Rebecca, on**  

### 2 **slide 31, is there anything you want to call** 

### 3 **out specifically here or are you content** 

### 4 **we've covered it to the extent we can?** 

### 5 **MS. LEGETT: I think we've covered** 

### 6 **it to the extent we can in this meeting. But** 

### 7 **I urge you all on your own to please take a** 

### 8 **closer look at this and submit your written** 

### 9 **comments.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, we're** 

### 11 **moving on.** 

### 12 **MS. LEGETT: So very high level** 

### 13 **here, we used a model to estimate the energy** 

### 14 **rating, again rated according to the test** 

### 15 **procedure of baseline equipment and levels of** 

### 16 **performance above the baseline associated** 

### 17 **with configurations including groups of** 

### 18 **design options. And again, a couple of** 

### 19 **slides later there's a graph that illustrates** 

### 20 **this, how we added those on.** 

### 21 **The model is based on engineering** 

### 22 **principles, supplemented by test data and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 156**  **1 information from manufacturer interviews.**  

### 2 **One comment we got in the preliminary** 

### 3 **analysis was to consider interactive effects** 

### 4 **so we did take a very close look at** 

### 5 **interactive effects on the energy use of** 

### 6 **implementing multiple design options on a** 

### 7 **unit and in an equipment class.** 

### 8 **We've heard this several times, but** 

### 9 **DOE did not consider interactive effects that** 

### 10 **wouldn't be captured by the test procedure.** 

### 11 **So system-wide effects, for instance, yes,** 

### 12 **that is perhaps a limitation to the approach.** 

### 13 **There's a lot of balance at work here. So** 

### 14 **any comments you have that could help us** 

### 15 **capture those while again being able to model** 

### 16 **the energy as is rated by the test procedure** 

### 17 **would be helpful.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 19 **MR. LEMMOND: Sorry to bring this up** 

### 20 **again, but you mentioned that there were test** 

### 21 **data used to build your model.** 

### 22 **MS. LEGETT: Limited.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 157**  **1 MR. LEMMOND: Limited. I was going**  

### 2 **to say was there any test data -- were there** 

### 3 **test data for each class of equipment?** 

### 4 **MS. LEGETT: I couldn't say that** 

### 5 **here.** 

### 6 **MR. LEMMOND: Okay. Will that test** 

### 7 **data that was used be made publicly** 

### 8 **available?** 

### 9 **MS. LEGETT: I can't speak to that.** 

### 10 **MR. CYMBALSKY: We will provide the** 

### 11 **model. We're going to clean up the model and** 

### 12 **we'll provide that for stakeholders.** 

### 13 **MR. LEMMOND: But what about the** 

### 14 **test data?** 

### 15 **MR. CYMBALSKY: That test data** 

### 16 **cannot be --** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 18 **Jon.** 

### 19 **Okay, there you see the comment box. Issue** 

### 20 **9. Comments here.** 

### 21 **MS. LEGETT: Again, I think we've** 

### 22 **already made that request a little earlier on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 158**  **1 any performance data you can provide.**  

### 2 **Moving on, in addition to the energy** 

### 3 **analysis, we did a manufacturing cost** 

### 4 **analysis. The manufacturing costs are based** 

### 5 **on material prices, as recently as we knew** 

### 6 **about them, conversion processes used by** 

### 7 **manufacturers, overhead factors. We got some** 

### 8 **of this information from confidential** 

### 9 **manufacturer interviews. We also got** 

### 10 **information from catalog data and other** 

### 11 **publicly available data. We disassembled** 

### 12 **several models of equipment to create a bill** 

### 13 **of materials. That was actually the basis** 

### 14 **for most of the manufacturing costs.** 

### 15 **Again, this analysis focuses on the** 

### 16 **manufacturer, so it didn't include the cost** 

### 17 **of components that the manufacturer did not** 

### 18 **supply. But we do request comment on both** 

### 19 **this analysis, the cost analysis, and the** 

### 20 **assumptions that we made.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike.** 

### 22 **MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub. With**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 159**  **1 respect to the disassembly of equipment, did**  

### 2 **you limit that in size such that you just** 

### 3 **looked at small equipment or did you look at** 

### 4 **all of the breadth of the products that would** 

### 5 **be covered by the standard or the regulation?** 

### 6 **MS. LEGETT: We looked at a range of** 

### 7 **sizes. We were practically constrained at** 

### 8 **the very largest sizes, but again, we did** 

### 9 **supplement the tear-down data with catalog** 

### 10 **data. Go ahead.** 

### 11 **MR. STRAUB: Could you share the** 

### 12 **size of the equipment you did tear down?** 

### 13 **MS. LEGETT: I don't know if we can** 

### 14 **share that, but I can get back to you.** 

### 15 **MR. STRAUB: I don't want to know** 

### 16 **the manufacturer, I just want to know** 

### 17 **capacity sizes.** 

### 18 **MS. LEGETT: I'll check on that.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 20 **MR. LEMMOND: I have a very specific** 

### 21 **question about a number that was thrown** 

### 22 **around earlier at the beginning of this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 160**  **1 meeting is 25 cents per square foot of panel.**  

### 2 **I noticed -- it's on page 55810 of the NOPR.** 

### 3 **And it doesn't say how that number was used.** 

### 4 **I'm wondering if you could comment on whether** 

### 5 **or not that was used.** 

### 6 **MS. LEGETT: I'm glad you asked** 

### 7 **that. That was, as all comments, that was** 

### 8 **considered. That's not the number we used.** 

### 9 **That was an information point. We actually** 

### 10 **calculated the panel costs by this method. I** 

### 11 **believe I can say we calculated the 32 square** 

### 12 **foot panel costs about a dollar per square** 

### 13 **foot just for the foam. So that doesn't** 

### 14 **count all the other things that go into that** 

### 15 **panel. I believe that's somewhere in the** 

### 16 **document, so I would refer to that.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keep going.** 

### 18 **MR. LEMMOND: Just to follow up.** 

### 19 **We're conducting surveys to find out what** 

### 20 **that cost would be. We may -- if we get** 

### 21 **enough feedback from manufacturers we may be** 

### 22 **able to share that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 161**  **1 MS. LEGETT: That would be really**  

### 2 **helpful.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What's your** 

### 4 **timeline for that, Jon?** 

### 5 **MR. LEMMOND: Well, the survey is** 

### 6 **out there, so I don't know if we're going to** 

### 7 **-- it depends on how many people respond** 

### 8 **essentially.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 10 **Ellis?** 

### 11 **MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. What was** 

### 12 **your final conclusion on walk-in panels what** 

### 13 **the cost would be?** 

### 14 **MS. LEGETT: Off the top of my head,** 

### 15 **I don't know.** 

### 16 **MR. CRAIG: Pretty significant point** 

### 17 **for us to know whether that's even in the** 

### 18 **ballpark.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Maybe we can** 

### 20 **dig for it.** 

### 21 **MR. CRAIG: Okay, that would be** 

### 22 **good. Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 162**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: In the**  

### 2 **meantime, we're going to move on. Charlie.** 

### 3 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, I** 

### 4 **can sort of give you a ballpark estimate** 

### 5 **having just looked at them yesterday in** 

### 6 **Chapter 5 of the TSD, you can look it up.** 

### 7 **It's in the probably $60 to $100 range** 

### 8 **depending on the size of the panel they're** 

### 9 **looking at for the panel costs and these are** 

### 10 **not big panels if you look at it. I think one** 

### 11 **of the panels they look at is 1.5 feet wide** 

### 12 **or 18 inches wide and 8 feet tall and the** 

### 13 **next one is 4.5 feet wide or something like** 

### 14 **that. So they're not -- and they go over $100** 

### 15 **for -- as the panels get larger. So dollars** 

### 16 **per square foot.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's let the** 

### 18 **analysts search for that and we'll come back** 

### 19 **with it once we uncover it.** 

### 20 **Robert?** 

### 21 **MR. WILKINS: If this is the wrong** 

### 22 **point to make this comment, let me know and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 163**  **1 I'll defer it. But I think there's a wild**  

### 2 **card in cost analysis and refrigeration** 

### 3 **systems with the refrigerant changes that are** 

### 4 **coming up. One hundred ten countries have** 

### 5 **signed a declaration of support to phase down** 

### 6 **HFC refrigerants. It's being discussed this** 

### 7 **month, in fact. It's not likely to be** 

### 8 **approved this month, but will likely be** 

### 9 **approved during before the date that this** 

### 10 **goes into effect.** 

### 11 **I raise it here because these** 

### 12 **products use -- utilize a relatively large** 

### 13 **refrigerant charge. Any equipment that has** 

### 14 **remote condensing has relatively large** 

### 15 **charges. And also has potential for leak** 

### 16 **because it's field connected and field** 

### 17 **installed. A change to lower GWP refrigerant** 

### 18 **could be a substantial change in these** 

### 19 **particular applications, much more so than** 

### 20 **the ones we discussed last week.** 

### 21 **Switching to hydrocarbon** 

### 22 **refrigerants is highly flammable. It's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 164**  **1 problematic in these applications. CO2 is a**  

### 2 **challenge in these applications. It's not** 

### 3 **clear the direction it's going. The point is** 

### 4 **it's a huge wild card. It's likely to change** 

### 5 **the cost pattern of these products, even the** 

### 6 **design considerations. You may, for example** 

### 7 **begin to see self-contained refrigeration** 

### 8 **systems that fit through the wall like a** 

### 9 **window air conditioner does to minimize the** 

### 10 **refrigerant charge, totally changing these** 

### 11 **whole parameters.** 

### 12 **So I urge DOE to -- I can't say what** 

### 13 **it's going to be, no one knows, but I'd urge** 

### 14 **you to consider the uncertainty presented by** 

### 15 **this regulatory initiative.** 

### 16 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you. I think** 

### 17 **we heard a lot about this at the CRE meeting** 

### 18 **with the refrigerants and DOE is certainly** 

### 19 **not ignoring that situation. One of my** 

### 20 **favorite lines in my old job was what you** 

### 21 **just said. It's impossible to predict, but** 

### 22 **it's going to happen, right?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 165**  **1 MR. WILKINS: And the charges are**  

### 2 **much larger in these applications than they** 

### 3 **are and also the impact is much higher.** 

### 4 **MR. CYMBALSKY: I think right now** 

### 5 **we're in a situation where the current law** 

### 6 **does not exist right now to require that** 

### 7 **change so it's legally there's things going** 

### 8 **on there, how we consider this standard now** 

### 9 **and five years from now, obviously, when the** 

### 10 **standard potentially comes into effect the** 

### 11 **refrigerant market could be different and** 

### 12 **we'll have to cross that bridge.** 

### 13 **MR. WILKINS: Absolutely.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So thank you,** 

### 15 **Jon Cymbalsky.** 

### 16 **Michael? Okay, that's it.** 

### 17 **Additional comments here? Laura, do** 

### 18 **you have something here?** 

### 19 **MS. DEGITZ: So we estimated that** 

### 20 **for a medium-size panel which should be an 8** 

### 21 **by 4 foot panel at baseline it would cost** 

### 22 **$153 for that panel for the manufacturer to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 166**  **1 produce that panel, not what they're selling**  

### 2 **it at, the production cost.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Baseline** 

### 4 **model.** 

### 5 **MS. DEGITZ: Baseline model.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 7 **MS. LEGETT: Three and a half inch** 

### 8 **cooler panel.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Three and a** 

### 10 **half inch cooler panel, baseline model.** 

### 11 **Thank you.** 

### 12 **We're ready to move on, I believe.** 

### 13 **Yes?** 

### 14 **MS. LEGETT: All right, again, the** 

### 15 **discussion up to now has been manufacturer** 

### 16 **production costs. We also calculated the** 

### 17 **manufacturer selling price which is the** 

### 18 **production cost times a manufacturer markup,** 

### 19 **plus the shipping cost.** 

### 20 **These are our estimated markups.** 

### 21 **They were based on information we gathered** 

### 22 **particularly from manufacturer interviews.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 167**  **1 Shipping costs -- and again, they're**  

### 2 **different for the different types of** 

### 3 **components because they're largely different** 

### 4 **industries.** 

### 5 **Shipping costs were calculated by** 

### 6 **the product volume and more details are in** 

### 7 **the engineering analysis on the shipping** 

### 8 **costs and the markups, but we do request** 

### 9 **comment on these assumptions.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What about** 

### 11 **these figures? No comment here? Maybe in** 

### 12 **writing. Okay.** 

### 13 **MS. LEGETT: I'll move on. The** 

### 14 **output of the engineering analysis is a set** 

### 15 **of getting back to the cost-efficiency** 

### 16 **curves. We created one for each** 

### 17 **representative unit of each equipment class.** 

### 18 **The point on the curve with the highest** 

### 19 **energy consumption or lowest efficiency and** 

### 20 **lowest manufacturer cost represents the** 

### 21 **baseline unit analytically realizing that the** 

### 22 **actual market distribution of units may be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 168**  **1 different. And each subsequent point on the**  

### 2 **curve represents a higher efficiency level** 

### 3 **corresponding to an additional or a more** 

### 4 **advanced design option. And for this** 

### 5 **analysis, we ordered these points by simple** 

### 6 **payback. There's another more complex** 

### 7 **payback analysis that we will probably** 

### 8 **discuss this afternoon.** 

### 9 **All the cost efficiency curves are** 

### 10 **printed in Appendix 5A for every unit or** 

### 11 **system that we analyzed. So I'm going to --** 

### 12 **probably the easiest way to illustrate this** 

### 13 **might be to show you an example.** 

### 14 **This is a cooler display door,** 

### 15 **medium sized. And you can see that the** 

### 16 **metric here is daily energy consumption and** 

### 17 **that's the metric you find by running the** 

### 18 **test procedure. And the manufacturer** 

### 19 **production cost is on the Y axis. So the** 

### 20 **highest -- the baseline unit with the highest** 

### 21 **energy consumption is the right most point** 

### 22 **there. That's efficiency level zero. And**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 169**  **1 then for each additional efficiency level,**  

### 2 **you add a design option and then we** 

### 3 **calculated the new calculated energy** 

### 4 **consumption and the new manufacturer** 

### 5 **production cost. You can see these are** 

### 6 **ordered in terms of basically efficacy, more** 

### 7 **bang for your buck that are going to be the** 

### 8 **lower efficiency levels.** 

### 9 **And then that last point way up** 

### 10 **there is max. tech. that has all the options** 

### 11 **that we considered. You can see that as you** 

### 12 **go along the curve you get smaller and** 

### 13 **smaller reductions in energy consumption for** 

### 14 **higher and higher costs. So this is an** 

### 15 **example for a cooler display door. Here's an** 

### 16 **example for a refrigeration system. This is** 

### 17 **a dedicated condensing so you have a unit** 

### 18 **cooler and a condensing unit combined.** 

### 19 **Medium temperature, outdoor refrigeration** 

### 20 **system, 18,000 BTUs per hour with a scroll** 

### 21 **compressor. And again, for each analysis** 

### 22 **point we had, we created a different curve.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 170**  **1 And again, this time the metric is**  

### 2 **the AWEF calculated from AHRI 1250 and in** 

### 3 **that case the higher the AWEF, the more** 

### 4 **efficient the unit. So this graph goes from** 

### 5 **left to right. You add design options and it** 

### 6 **increases the cost and it also increases the** 

### 7 **efficiency.** 

### 8 **So I'll -- that's my last slide.** 

### 9 **I'll go ahead and see if anyone has any** 

### 10 **comments or questions on these graphs or any** 

### 11 **general questions about the engineering** 

### 12 **analysis.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 14 **MR. McHUGH: I'm trying to -- for** 

### 15 **the defrost control, could you describe what** 

### 16 **the base case is and what your proposed case** 

### 17 **is for the control?** 

### 18 **MS. LEGETT: So the base case is** 

### 19 **time initiated temperature terminated. And** 

### 20 **you'll have to look this up because I could** 

### 21 **be wrong. So it's a defrost control on a** 

### 22 **timer and it starts the defrost. It warms up**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 171**  **1 the coil and melts the ice, warms up the coil**  

### 2 **to a certain point and then cuts off. Does** 

### 3 **that answer your question?** 

### 4 **MR. McHUGH: And then the proposed** 

### 5 **is?** 

### 6 **MS. LEGETT: The proposed is** 

### 7 **theoretically it's an on-demand system. So** 

### 8 **it only starts to defrost when you need a** 

### 9 **defrost. In practice, in the model, we just** 

### 10 **reduced the number of defrosts that we** 

### 11 **assumed would occur during the course of the** 

### 12 **day.** 

### 13 **MR. McHUGH: And in terms of what's** 

### 14 **commercially available, is that an optical** 

### 15 **control or what is the commercial product** 

### 16 **description?** 

### 17 **MS. LEGETT: We didn't specify a** 

### 18 **commercial product. I actually would like to** 

### 19 **ask the refrigeration manufacturers what's** 

### 20 **out there in terms of defrost control.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis.** 

### 22 **MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. I just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 172**  **1 need a little bit of clarification here.**  

### 2 **We're talking about costs now and we did use** 

### 3 **the baseline of the units we were looking at,** 

### 4 **the 3.5 inch and the wood frame as our** 

### 5 **baseline when calculating costs, correct?** 

### 6 **MS. LEGETT: Yes.** 

### 7 **MR. CRAIG: So if that's incorrect,** 

### 8 **then this would be incorrect. Am I correct?** 

### 9 **MS. LEGETT: Potentially. It** 

### 10 **depends on which way it's incorrect.** 

### 11 **MR. CRAIG: It's actually less. The** 

### 12 **baseline you have is less than what's** 

### 13 **actually out there.** 

### 14 **MS. LEGETT: This is only for an** 

### 15 **individual unit. It doesn't speak to what** 

### 16 **the actual distribution of efficiencies in** 

### 17 **the market is.** 

### 18 **MR. CRAIG: Okay.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay? Buzz,** 

### 20 **did you have something?** 

### 21 **MR. SCHAEFFER: Buzz Schaeffer. I** 

### 22 **was just thinking your question was what's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 173**  **1 commercially available. You really should**  

### 2 **state what is commercially available that** 

### 3 **works.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, we are** 

### 5 **going to move on.** 

### 6 **MS. LEGETT: That's the end of that** 

### 7 **analysis. Did you want to move on to the** 

### 8 **next one?** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: How many want** 

### 10 **to keep going and how many want to break for** 

### 11 **lunch? Break for lunch.** 

### 12 **Let's break for lunch. Okay. I've** 

### 13 **been convinced.** 

### 14 **MR. SACHS: Are you saying you're** 

### 15 **hungry?** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No, I'm not** 

### 17 **hungry. It's noon. We'll take an hour for** 

### 18 **lunch.** 

### 19 **Please do not leave the Forrestal** 

### 20 **building. There's a big cafeteria. Go down** 

### 21 **to the ground floor and go about 100 yards in** 

### 22 **that direction up two escalators, there's a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 174**  **1 big cafeteria there. They have all kinds of**  

### 2 **things.** 

### 3 **You must wear this badge. You will** 

### 4 **have to -- as you return from the cafeteria,** 

### 5 **you'll have to go through a security portal** 

### 6 **and you might need an ID. Sometimes they** 

### 7 **require it, sometimes do not.** 

### 8 **This room will be locked. You can** 

### 9 **leave your stuff. It will be supervised here** 

### 10 **and it's all safe.** 

### 11 **So we've made good progress, we're** 

### 12 **still a little bit behind. We'll make it up** 

### 13 **and we'll see you back here to start at 1** 

### 14 **sharp.** 

### 15 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 16 **matter went off the record at 12:01 p.m. and** 

### 17 **resumed at 1:04 p.m.)** 

### 18 **19 20**  **21 22**  **23**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 175**  **1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N**  

### 2 **(1:04 p.m.)** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, thanks to** 

### 4 **all of you for being punctual. I hope you** 

### 5 **had a nice lunch. We are going to pick up** 

### 6 **where we left off, engineering analysis --** 

### 7 **oh, pardon me -- markups analysis and energy** 

### 8 **use analysis and hear from Katie Coughlin.** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, my name is** 

### 10 **Katie Coughlin. I work with Lawrence** 

### 11 **Berkeley Lab. I am going to take through the** 

### 12 **next few analyses that relate -- these** 

### 13 **analyses relate to the impacts of the** 

### 14 **standard on users of the equipment and also** 

### 15 **the general impacts nationally on energy** 

### 16 **savings and NPV.** 

### 17 **So, we will start with the energy** 

### 18 **use and markups, which, in addition to the** 

### 19 **engineering, are the two major inputs to the** 

### 20 **LCC analysis. So, we have the sketch here** 

### 21 **that shows the flow of information through** 

### 22 **the various stages of the analysis.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 176**  **1 What we have heard about so far is**  

### 2 **the engineering that looks at the manufacture** 

### 3 **of these components and systems. The markups** 

### 4 **that I will be talking about refer to the** 

### 5 **markups in the distribution chain, moving the** 

### 6 **equipment from the manufacturer to the user.** 

### 7 **And then energy use analysis also refers to** 

### 8 **the energy use in the field.** 

### 9 **So, for the distribution channels** 

### 10 **for these products, DOE considered two sort** 

### 11 **of overlapping sets of distribution channels.** 

### 12 **So, for refrigeration systems and various** 

### 13 **types of doors, the distribution channels** 

### 14 **from the manufacturer are the three national** 

### 15 **accounts, which is direct to a user, sales to** 

### 16 **the envelope manufacturer, or sales to** 

### 17 **wholesalers.** 

### 18 **And then for envelope panels and** 

### 19 **non-display doors, the equipment comes from -** 

### 20 **- so the OEM is the acronym used for the** 

### 21 **envelope manufacturer. Going from the OEM to** 

### 22 **the user, there can be either national**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 177**  **1 accounts, again, distributors, or general**  

### 2 **contractors. And general contractor in this** 

### 3 **context means a building contractor.** 

### 4 **So, the percentages in these tables** 

### 5 **show the fraction of equipment of different** 

### 6 **types that goes through these distribution** 

### 7 **channels, before it reaches the final user.** 

### 8 **These numbers have been developed using** 

### 9 **stakeholder input that was received during** 

### 10 **the preliminary analysis.** 

### 11 **So for example, if you are looking** 

### 12 **at multiplex refrigeration systems, the** 

### 13 **national accounts are about 45 percent of all** 

### 14 **units, wholesalers account for another 45** 

### 15 **percent, and then ten percent go to the OEM,** 

### 16 **where they will be passed through a second** 

### 17 **channel.** 

### 18 **The second row of numbers or the** 

### 19 **second set of numbers in the table represents** 

### 20 **the distribution channels for the second set** 

### 21 **of -- coming from the OEMs. So envelopes,** 

### 22 **both panel and non-display doors have the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 178**  **1 same distribution, 45 percent through**  

### 2 **national accounts, 44 percent distributor, 11** 

### 3 **percent contractor. And then final row is** 

### 4 **for the equipment that is coming from the** 

### 5 **manufacturer going to an OEM, and then going** 

### 6 **from the OEM out the door is disaggregated** 

### 7 **according to the percentages on the bottom** 

### 8 **row.** 

### 9 **So, these numbers have been** 

### 10 **developed by actually considering the** 

### 11 **different usage categories, which pretty much** 

### 12 **follow the equipment classes. So, freezers** 

### 13 **and coolers, display, non-display. And then** 

### 14 **the industry segments that they go to,** 

### 15 **primarily categorized as food service and** 

### 16 **food sales.** 

### 17 **So, there is quite a bit of** 

### 18 **additional detail in the NOPR TSD on** 

### 19 **fractions of each type of industry and how** 

### 20 **they deal with other manufacturers,** 

### 21 **distributors, contractors, et cetera. And so** 

### 22 **these are just the overall numbers at the end**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 179**  **1 of that more detailed analysis.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Maybe just** 

### 3 **pause for a second. Anything that anyone** 

### 4 **would note about this that is significant?** 

### 5 **Harvey.** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. I'm just** 

### 7 **not clear on the distinction between the** 

### 8 **wholesaler and the distributor in your table.** 

### 9 **Is this just how the panel people** 

### 10 **differentiate themselves from the** 

### 11 **refrigeration side?** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So, a** 

### 13 **wholesaler -- yes, the distributor would be** 

### 14 **involved in assembling the actual walk-in** 

### 15 **unit in the field, whereas the wholesaler** 

### 16 **would not.** 

### 17 **So, the wholesaler is just** 

### 18 **wholesaling equipment to people who are going** 

### 19 **to go then take and take it and do something** 

### 20 **with it; whereas, the distributor is involved** 

### 21 **in the assembly of the equipment.** 

### 22 **MR. SACHS: As opposed to the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 180**  **1 contractor?**  

### 2 **MS. COUGHLIN: Well, the contractor** 

### 3 **is involved in the assembly of the equipment** 

### 4 **but these are general building contractors** 

### 5 **and not specialized to this subset.** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: Thank you.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 8 **MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi with HARDI.** 

### 9 **I will be commenting on this in our** 

### 10 **comments as a more clearly breakdown. But, I** 

### 11 **would estimate that more folks would be** 

### 12 **classified as the wholesaler variety, as** 

### 13 **opposed to distributor and actually putting** 

### 14 **together product in the field. That seems** 

### 15 **very high to me.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 17 **you.** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other** 

### 20 **comments? Yes, Harmon.** 

### 21 **MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis, USD. I am** 

### 22 **wondering, is that distributor, as far as the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 181**  **1 envelopes, is that what you would consider**  

### 2 **food service equipment dealer? Because that** 

### 3 **is who we sell most of our units through.** 

### 4 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Luke?** 

### 6 **MR. CRAIG: Yes, Luke Craig. The** 

### 7 **national account where basically you are** 

### 8 **selling direct to the end user, 45 percent is** 

### 9 **way high. It would be closer, maybe, to** 

### 10 **maybe five to ten percent. Distributor, most** 

### 11 **of our, I would say probably 45 percent of** 

### 12 **our business goes to food equipment dealers,** 

### 13 **45 percent goes to contractors, and maybe one** 

### 14 **or two percent would be to a wholesaler.** 

### 15 **Then the rest would be direct to national** 

### 16 **accounts.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Luke, it** 

### 18 **seems like you are mixing your estimate of** 

### 19 **the national statistics and then you inserted** 

### 20 **the statistics from your company. Did you do** 

### 21 **both there, or were they all --** 

### 22 **MR. CRAIG: Well, I'm just giving an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 182**  **1 example. Yes, that seems -- direct to the**  

### 2 **end user, 45 percent seems very, very high.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 4 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, so** 

### 6 **comments on this would be helpful. Let's** 

### 7 **proceed.** 

### 8 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So, the second** 

### 9 **aspect of the analysis is to estimate the** 

### 10 **markups associated with these different** 

### 11 **distribution channels. Again, there is quite** 

### 12 **a lot of detail in all the bits and pieces** 

### 13 **that were used to create overall markups. I** 

### 14 **am just going to present the final results** 

### 15 **and the basic conceptual overview of how this** 

### 16 **is done.** 

### 17 **So, DOE uses two types of markups in** 

### 18 **its analyses, a baseline markup and an** 

### 19 **incremental markup. The baseline markup** 

### 20 **represents the markup on the baseline unit** 

### 21 **that includes all of the costs associated** 

### 22 **with the distribution channel. The**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 183**  **1 incremental markup is meant to represent the**  

### 2 **component of the cost that is affected by the** 

### 3 **standard. So, when the manufacturer's** 

### 4 **selling price goes up, the distributor, the** 

### 5 **sort of general category of distributor is** 

### 6 **going to markup that increase but not** 

### 7 **necessarily by the full baseline amount. So,** 

### 8 **DOE uses industry data to break the costs in** 

### 9 **the distribution channel down between those** 

### 10 **that should scale with the manufacturer price** 

### 11 **of the equipment and those that are** 

### 12 **independent of the manufacturer price of the** 

### 13 **equipment and, based on that data, comes up** 

### 14 **with these incremental markups.** 

### 15 **So, the table shows for the** 

### 16 **equipment classes, the major equipment** 

### 17 **classes, the baseline and incremental** 

### 18 **markups. Generally speaking, incremental** 

### 19 **markups are on the order of half of the** 

### 20 **baseline markups.** 

### 21 **So, these are added on top of the** 

### 22 **markup. We have the manufacturer cost; then**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 184**  **1 that is marked up by the manufacturer; and**  

### 2 **then these markups are added to those to** 

### 3 **represent the distribution channel costs.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert.** 

### 5 **MR. WILKINS: Okay, just a question.** 

### 6 **I can see that maybe if there is a steep** 

### 7 **change in cost that all of the markup may not** 

### 8 **flow through. But over a three- to five-year** 

### 9 **period, I would imagine it would move back to** 

### 10 **the baseline. So, I am wondering if this** 

### 11 **incremental, do you assume that that remains** 

### 12 **in place for the duration or does it** 

### 13 **gradually move back to the baseline so that** 

### 14 **the distributor or whoever moves back to the** 

### 15 **typical markup that he or she or gets in her** 

### 16 **business?** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: No, we leave these** 

### 18 **markups cost over the analysis period.** 

### 19 **MR. WILKINS: I would assume most** 

### 20 **business people want to recover their margin.** 

### 21 **So, I don't have any better data but --** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 185**  **1 thinking that these figures, they are not**  

### 2 **recovering their margins.** 

### 3 **MR. WILKINS: They don't appear --** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I am seeing a** 

### 5 **few heads nodding. Harmon, do you want to** 

### 6 **comment?** 

### 7 **MR. LEWIS: Yes, I don't agree with** 

### 8 **it. I think your incremental numbers are** 

### 9 **going to need to be the others and maybe even** 

### 10 **worse, if you have got significant cash** 

### 11 **outlays on equipment to get the incremental.** 

### 12 **Or maybe I just don't understand it.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Can you be** 

### 14 **specific? Can you give numbers, Robert?** 

### 15 **MR. WILKINS: Well, if your baseline** 

### 16 **is 1.51 on the top two, I don't understand** 

### 17 **the incremental is less, unless you are only** 

### 18 **saying that the cost of the, like going** 

### 19 **outdoor to cover the winterization or what** 

### 20 **have you, the standard is only 19 percent of** 

### 21 **the cost or are you saying that is all you** 

### 22 **are going to mark it up?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 186**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, so some of the**  

### 2 **costs, for example, you pay a certain amount** 

### 3 **of a cost to rent or maintain a space that** 

### 4 **the business operates in. Those are not** 

### 5 **going to be affected by the increase in the** 

### 6 **first cost to the equipment.** 

### 7 **So, essentially by looking at the** 

### 8 **breakdown of costs associated with operating** 

### 9 **these businesses, DOE identifies those that** 

### 10 **they think are not affected by the existence** 

### 11 **of the standard and those that are affected** 

### 12 **by the standard.** 

### 13 **So, this is all presented in detail** 

### 14 **in Chapter 6. If there are some costs that** 

### 15 **DOE has moved out of the category of being** 

### 16 **affected by the standard, that should be** 

### 17 **moved back in, we can account for that.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie.** 

### 19 **MR. LEWIS: Before you get to** 

### 20 **Charlie, if we use those numbers, we would be** 

### 21 **out of business this time next year. So,** 

### 22 **nice seeing you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 187**  **1 (Laughter.)**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 3 **Harmon.** 

### 4 **Charlie.** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: There is always** 

### 6 **confusion about this. For those of us who** 

### 7 **have been doing this for years, it actually** 

### 8 **made sense. And I was involved long ago in** 

### 9 **how this was structured. So, I kind of get** 

### 10 **it better than most.** 

### 11 **But the efficiency of the equipment** 

### 12 **being sold doesn't really affect an awful lot** 

### 13 **of a business' costs. The increased cost of** 

### 14 **the equipment doesn't require a different** 

### 15 **sales force. More sales people doesn't** 

### 16 **require more building, in a lot of cases. It** 

### 17 **doesn't require -- most of the overhead just** 

### 18 **stays the way it was.** 

### 19 **So, and these numbers, the 1.19, the** 

### 20 **one that would put you out of business is not** 

### 21 **being applied to the entire panel, for** 

### 22 **instance. It is only being applied to the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 188**  **1 incremental cost of the panel. And then the**  

### 2 **baseline markup is there, the 1.51, the one** 

### 3 **you were looking at, would be applied to the** 

### 4 **rest of the cost.** 

### 5 **So, it is only an incremental markup** 

### 6 **on an incremental cost when it doesn't --** 

### 7 **when that cost isn't affected, doesn't affect** 

### 8 **the business because of the efficiency level** 

### 9 **of the thing.** 

### 10 **So, I know it is a hard concept.** 

### 11 **You really have to read that section of the** 

### 12 **report to get it but it actually does make** 

### 13 **some sense, once you understand it.** 

### 14 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So, very** 

### 15 **briefly. If the baseline price of a panel is** 

### 16 **$100, there will be a 1.51 markup on that.** 

### 17 **Then say going to TSL 1, you add $10, there** 

### 18 **will be a 1.19 markup on that $10.** 

### 19 **MR. WILKINS: I spent a significant** 

### 20 **part of my time in sales. And I think my** 

### 21 **boss would have told me, he said Robert, you** 

### 22 **have got this new product and you are letting**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 189**  **1 your margins go down. Because I think what a**  

### 2 **business person would be looking at is what** 

### 3 **is his overall capital employed and how does** 

### 4 **he earn a return on capital employed.** 

### 5 **And he or she has got to invest in** 

### 6 **more inventory because what they are buying,** 

### 7 **the price has gone up. So, their investment** 

### 8 **in inventories are going up. Their** 

### 9 **receivables are going up. The capital** 

### 10 **investment in equipment to form thicker** 

### 11 **panels, that is going up.** 

### 12 **And so to maintain a return on** 

### 13 **capital employed, they have got to do more** 

### 14 **than just pass through this regulatory cost** 

### 15 **increase at a nominal cost. I would just** 

### 16 **think that --** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: But it is not. It is** 

### 18 **being marked up. So, again, the detail of** 

### 19 **how the markups are determined is provided.** 

### 20 **But it is not -- I think this concept is** 

### 21 **pretty common sense. If you buy a cup of** 

### 22 **coffee, if coffee beans go up by a factor of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 190**  **1 two, you are not going to see a factor of two**  

### 2 **increase on the purchase of a price of a cup** 

### 3 **of coffee.** 

### 4 **MR. WILKINS: Perhaps not** 

### 5 **immediately, but two years later it is going** 

### 6 **to be baked into it. Because that coffee** 

### 7 **shop has got to earn a return on the** 

### 8 **investment.** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right. And those** 

### 10 **aspects are considered in the markup** 

### 11 **analysis.** 

### 12 **MR. WILKINS: And this is going to** 

### 13 **dilute the margins over time.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie, do** 

### 15 **you want to try it again? This is** 

### 16 **complicated, y'all.** 

### 17 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, this is** 

### 18 **complicated. The margins are not going down** 

### 19 **because the costs aren't going up. Not all** 

### 20 **of your costs go up. There is only a small** 

### 21 **part of a distributor's costs or a** 

### 22 **wholesaler's costs, or a retailer's costs, or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 191**  **1 anybody subsequent to the manufacturer, which**  

### 2 **is what this is all about.** 

### 3 **Yes, the cost of the product out of** 

### 4 **the manufacturing plant goes up. But only a** 

### 5 **fraction of the distributor's costs that he** 

### 6 **is trying to recover in his margins go up.** 

### 7 **A lot of his costs don't go up. So,** 

### 8 **his margins don't go down. He is only** 

### 9 **incurring an increased cost, a marginal** 

### 10 **increased cost on the product that he is** 

### 11 **buying. The rests of his costs for his sales** 

### 12 **force, for the heating and cooling of his** 

### 13 **building, for the rent of his building or** 

### 14 **whatever it is, are not going up. So, his** 

### 15 **margins aren't going up or down they are just** 

### 16 **being maintained is what this amounts to.** 

### 17 **So, this markup essentially** 

### 18 **maintains margins.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Go ahead,** 

### 20 **Robert.** 

### 21 **MR. WILKINS: Robert here. So far,** 

### 22 **so good. And for that part of his analysis,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 192**  **1 I can agree. But his capital investment has**  

### 2 **also gone up because this part that he is** 

### 3 **distributing he paid $100 for, he is now** 

### 4 **paying $120. So he has got more of his** 

### 5 **assets tied up in capital and inventory.** 

### 6 **MR. STEPHENS: But that is the 1.51.** 

### 7 **That is marked up by 1.51.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 9 **MR. WILKINS: I don't --** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Hang on.** 

### 11 **Christopher, do you want weigh in here?** 

### 12 **Christopher Lau.** 

### 13 **MR. LAU: Sure. This is related to** 

### 14 **the sidebar. So, as the gentleman here** 

### 15 **noted, this is for distributors on down.** 

### 16 **When we look at the markups for manufacturers** 

### 17 **in the manufacturer impact analysis, we do** 

### 18 **consider the impact of the conversion cost,** 

### 19 **as well as the incremental cost.** 

### 20 **MR. WILKINS: But what about the** 

### 21 **capital? Let me turn my point around into a** 

### 22 **question. Have you considered the increase**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 193**  **1 in capital investment that these businesses**  

### 2 **have made and how they are going to earn a** 

### 3 **return? They can't go to the bank and say I** 

### 4 **have got a new regulation from DOE, I need** 

### 5 **another million dollars but I am not getting** 

### 6 **any money to pay interest on that million** 

### 7 **dollars.** 

### 8 **MS. COUGHLIN: Again this is -- I'm** 

### 9 **not sure you are talking about capital costs** 

### 10 **of manufacturers or --** 

### 11 **MR. WILKINS: Or distributors or** 

### 12 **dealers or anybody.** 

### 13 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, so any** 

### 14 **increased finance costs will be accounted for** 

### 15 **in the markup analysis.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey.** 

### 17 **MR. WILKINS: Okay, if it is in** 

### 18 **there, then I'm fine.** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, it's in there.** 

### 20 **MR. WILKINS: But I haven't heard** 

### 21 **how you did that.** 

### 22 **MR. SACHS: The markups are way over**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 194**  **1 my -- this is Harvey. Markups are way over**  

### 2 **my head and I will admit that. But I do have** 

### 3 **a question about this graph. The terminology** 

### 4 **you are using with DCs and Ms and PDs and** 

### 5 **that sort of stuff is not defined in the** 

### 6 **slides.** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: And I was derelict in** 

### 9 **not reading the whole TSD before the meeting.** 

### 10 **MS. COUGHLIN: So, DC and MC are** 

### 11 **dedicated condenser, multiplex condenser. M** 

### 12 **and L refer to medium and low temperatures,** 

### 13 **so those are essentially coolers and** 

### 14 **freezers. The I and O refer to indoor and** 

### 15 **outdoor for the location of the condensing** 

### 16 **unit. So that is for the first few.** 

### 17 **And then the second, SP is the** 

### 18 **structural panel, DD is display door, PD is** 

### 19 **passage door, and FD is freight door. And** 

### 20 **the M and the L again refer to medium and low** 

### 21 **temperature of applications.** 

### 22 **MR. SACHS: Thank you. That takes**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 195**  **1 everything away from what is covering my**  

### 2 **eyes.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: David,** 

### 4 **please.** 

### 5 **MR. GRIFE: David Grife with Arctic.** 

### 6 **Pardon some naiveté. Like we said, some of** 

### 7 **us are new to the regulated world. And prior** 

### 8 **to that, we didn't ever deal with graphs like** 

### 9 **this. As I was following it, to be honest, I** 

### 10 **lost you. I had no idea what you were** 

### 11 **talking about.** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. GRIFE: And then I was trying to** 

### 14 **say well, when you did this chart, did you** 

### 15 **come to the analysis well, now that I have** 

### 16 **completed my chart you were comfortable with** 

### 17 **those numbers. Are those numbers that you** 

### 18 **decide, well, if they came back at 1.89,** 

### 19 **well, we have to have a whole other meeting** 

### 20 **because we are going to be out of business?** 

### 21 **So, I wasn't sure where we were going with** 

### 22 **that and what we were trying to do.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 196**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, I guess for all**  

### 2 **of the analyses that I am going to discuss,** 

### 3 **these are standard, routine analyses that DOE** 

### 4 **does for all products. So, for example, the** 

### 5 **markups for distribution channels are** 

### 6 **something that is done for every single** 

### 7 **product that DOE has ever regulated. And** 

### 8 **they all use basically the same type of** 

### 9 **methodology. There is a great deal of** 

### 10 **publicly available information on cost** 

### 11 **breakdowns for these different industries.** 

### 12 **So, these are in line with the types** 

### 13 **of markups you will see for other commercial** 

### 14 **products with similar user categories and** 

### 15 **similar manufacturing properties. So, in** 

### 16 **that sense, there is a reality check on all** 

### 17 **of these things.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, what you** 

### 19 **can do is write in or comment now about how** 

### 20 **your practice, what you experience diverges** 

### 21 **from all of this.** 

### 22 **Harmon.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 197**  **1 MR. LEWIS: The structural panel**  

### 2 **number there at 1.16, 1.09 when you go** 

### 3 **through four-inch thick panel to a five-inch** 

### 4 **panel, your cure time changes from 30 to 45** 

### 5 **minutes. You just lost 33 percent of your** 

### 6 **capacity working 80 percent of the hours in a** 

### 7 **week.** 

### 8 **So, I don't have 33 percent more** 

### 9 **capacity. So, I have got to go out and buy** 

### 10 **more fixtures. That would be a million** 

### 11 **dollars. I have got to build more square** 

### 12 **footage on my building because I have got to** 

### 13 **have somewhere to put the fixtures because** 

### 14 **the panel has to stay in the fixture 50** 

### 15 **percent longer, from 30 to 45 minutes.** 

### 16 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right.** 

### 17 **MR. LEWIS: I can't charge nine** 

### 18 **percent more markup and be in business a** 

### 19 **couple of months.** 

### 20 **MS. COUGHLIN: But again, there is a** 

### 21 **markup associated with the manufacturing side** 

### 22 **and then there is a markup associated with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 198**  **1 the distribution side. So, this is intended**  

### 2 **to only account for the distribution side of** 

### 3 **your business.** 

### 4 **MR. LEWIS: Okay, so you have got a** 

### 5 **chart that talks about the manufacture side.** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: Those are part of the** 

### 7 **engineering analysis.** 

### 8 **MR. LEWIS: Okay, and they are going** 

### 9 **to show a lot of dollars.** 

### 10 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. We visit this,** 

### 11 **too, in the MIA, I believe.** 

### 12 **MR. LAU: Clarifying.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Christopher.** 

### 14 **MR. LAU: Yes, this is Chris Lau.** 

### 15 **To clarify it, the manufacturer markups are** 

### 16 **taken into account in the manufacturer impact** 

### 17 **analysis. And there, we do look at those** 

### 18 **conversion costs. We have taken into account** 

### 19 **the cost of additional fixtures and capacity** 

### 20 **constraints.** 

### 21 **MR. LEWIS: And building.** 

### 22 **MR. LAU: And building, yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 199**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Where are**  

### 2 **they in the TSD?** 

### 3 **MR. LAU: It will be Chapter 12 of** 

### 4 **the TSD.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Chapter 12.** 

### 6 **Thank you.** 

### 7 **MR. LAU: But the building and such** 

### 8 **is actually -- Katie is right. And that is** 

### 9 **actually part of the engineering analysis,** 

### 10 **where they look at the costs of any -- they** 

### 11 **basically look at the cost of a ‘‘green field’’** 

### 12 **facility and take that into account in the** 

### 13 **MPC, in the manufacturer production costs.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon, you are** 

### 15 **next.** 

### 16 **MR. McHUGH: Yes, so if you look at** 

### 17 **slide 34, it talks about the manufacturer's** 

### 18 **markup. I think what wasn't clear, because I** 

### 19 **was confused for the first half of this, that** 

### 20 **this slide is all about the distribution** 

### 21 **markup. And I think a lot of folks here are** 

### 22 **talking about the manufacturer's markup**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 200**  **1 because they are representing manufacturers.**  

### 2 **So the manufacturers' markups on slide 34** 

### 3 **talks about 32 percent markup on panels and** 

### 4 **there is not an incremental portion -- well,** 

### 5 **I guess you are looking at the incremental** 

### 6 **part of your teardown analysis.** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: This is the markup** 

### 8 **that is used for all the standard levels.** 

### 9 **MR. McHUGH: Right. Right, exactly.** 

### 10 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 11 **MR. McHUGH: So, I don't know if** 

### 12 **that helps any of you. No? It still** 

### 13 **doesn't. Okay.** 

### 14 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, because I** 

### 15 **believe the cost model just assembles the** 

### 16 **thing from scratch at each efficiency level.** 

### 17 **So yes, in this Chevron diagram,** 

### 18 **again, there is a markup applied at the level** 

### 19 **of the engineering analysis, representing** 

### 20 **manufacturer costs. And then there is a** 

### 21 **markup again applied in the markup analysis,** 

### 22 **which is just the distribution channel. And**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 201**  **1 this may seem somewhat artificial in some**  

### 2 **cases. This is, again, just to kind of the** 

### 3 **routine segmentation of the analysis that DOE** 

### 4 **applies.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert.** 

### 6 **MR. WILKINS: Katie, I believe I** 

### 7 **understand what your assumptions are. And I** 

### 8 **think that they have been made clear. And** 

### 9 **thank you for making them clear.** 

### 10 **Let me put myself in the shoes of** 

### 11 **the distributor. And I have been selling** 

### 12 **electrical goods for the last 15 years.** 

### 13 **Copper has gone up five or ten percent every** 

### 14 **year. And I make a 30 percent margin but** 

### 15 **when copper goes up, I only inflate it ten** 

### 16 **percent because it is only incremental. And** 

### 17 **I do it again, and again, and again. And so,** 

### 18 **my average margin over time has dropped** 

### 19 **because I have only increased, raise prices** 

### 20 **for the incremental part of the inflation** 

### 21 **that I saw.** 

### 22 **So, my distributor margin has gone**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 202**  **1 down, down, down. And I am still happy**  

### 2 **because it is all incremental.** 

### 3 **Life doesn't work that way. These** 

### 4 **businesses have to hold their margins up. So** 

### 5 **maybe that is true for the first year but** 

### 6 **there is a rebound effect.** 

### 7 **And I would also contend that** 

### 8 **whether that incremental cost increase came** 

### 9 **from inflation in copper or from a new** 

### 10 **regulation from DOE, the distributor doesn't** 

### 11 **care. The distributor has to make his money** 

### 12 **and pay his return on investment. And** 

### 13 **whether that might be reasonable for an** 

### 14 **academic point of view in real life, I have** 

### 15 **never seen any evidence that that incremental** 

### 16 **approach actually occurs. And I would urge** 

### 17 **you to get input from distributors to** 

### 18 **actually validate that that is how they price** 

### 19 **their goods. I have never seen that in my** 

### 20 **business career.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, I think** 

### 22 **we are ready to move on.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 203**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, so moving on to**  

### 2 **the energy use. So, this segment of the** 

### 3 **analysis, again, there is an energy use** 

### 4 **component of the engineering analysis, which** 

### 5 **I will not be talking about in detail. But** 

### 6 **that energy use looks at either the** 

### 7 **construction or the various pieces of the** 

### 8 **equipment and develops a detailed model for** 

### 9 **predicting energy consumption based on the** 

### 10 **design options.** 

### 11 **So, for the energy use in this** 

### 12 **section of the analysis is to try to predict** 

### 13 **the energy use that the user of the equipment** 

### 14 **would be seeing. And the purpose of that is** 

### 15 **to come up with a value associated with** 

### 16 **reductions in that energy use.** 

### 17 **So, given the separation in this** 

### 18 **analysis of the component, the envelope** 

### 19 **components from the refrigeration system we** 

### 20 **now have two separate energy use analyses.** 

### 21 **We are no longer looking at the assembled** 

### 22 **system for the energy use.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 204**  **1 So, for the refrigeration system,**  

### 2 **for each equipment class, the energy use** 

### 3 **analysis is based on just taking the** 

### 4 **capacities that have been chosen for the** 

### 5 **analysis points and assuming that they are** 

### 6 **assigned to a given refrigeration load that** 

### 7 **is appropriate for that capacity.** 

### 8 **So in an inverse of the design** 

### 9 **process where the customer tells you what** 

### 10 **their box size is, the loads, and you choose** 

### 11 **the capacity, we are saying okay, we start** 

### 12 **with the capacity. Let's assume that this** 

### 13 **has been chosen in some reasonable way to go** 

### 14 **with the load.** 

### 15 **So that refrigeration load** 

### 16 **essentially depends on the sizing of the** 

### 17 **equipment and the duty cycle.** 

### 18 **And in the general definition of the** 

### 19 **energy use for the outdoor condensing units,** 

### 20 **it also takes into account the variable** 

### 21 **ambient temperature conditions.** 

### 22 **So, DOE first takes the capacity and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 205**  **1 defines the capacity that it would have in**  

### 2 **the test procedure conditions. And then uses** 

### 3 **a sizing methodology that was developed based** 

### 4 **on comments that were received in the** 

### 5 **preliminary analysis, which suggested that** 

### 6 **the first thing that you do is calculate a** 

### 7 **daily average load and then assume that that** 

### 8 **load is met over a 16-hour cycle for coolers** 

### 9 **and 18 hours for freezers. Then, there is a** 

### 10 **ten percent safety margin for essentially the** 

### 11 **oversizing factor. And then DOE has included** 

### 12 **an additional ten percent margin for what** 

### 13 **they call capacity mismatch, which represents** 

### 14 **the fact that whatever the design point for a** 

### 15 **system may not be available in the market** 

### 16 **exactly. So you have to match whatever** 

### 17 **particular capacity sizes are available.** 

### 18 **So the combination of those two** 

### 19 **margins adds about 20 percent oversizing** 

### 20 **overall on the average.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis.** 

### 22 **MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. I have a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 206**  **1 question. When you are figuring out this**  

### 2 **energy use, and then you are figuring out** 

### 3 **with the new system how much less energy it** 

### 4 **uses, when you are talking about the existing** 

### 5 **system, are you talking about what is the** 

### 6 **baseline, what we are calculating as baseline** 

### 7 **walk-in description? Does that make sense?** 

### 8 **MS. COUGHLIN: So we calculate the** 

### 9 **energy use at each efficiency level.** 

### 10 **MR. CRAIG: No. It seems to me what** 

### 11 **we are saying here is you are calculating the** 

### 12 **energy use of an existing baseline unit and** 

### 13 **then you are saying you are going to** 

### 14 **calculate to level four here. And then we** 

### 15 **are going to see how much that saves us.** 

### 16 **Correct? Does that make sense?** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: Correct.** 

### 18 **MR. CRAIG: Okay. But on the** 

### 19 **baseline, are you using the description of** 

### 20 **the walk-in that we talked about early that** 

### 21 **was wrong?** 

### 22 **MS. COUGHLIN: No.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 207**  **1 MR. CRAIG: What are you using?**  

### 2 **That's complicated.** 

### 3 **MS. COUGHLIN: We are not trying --** 

### 4 **we are just assuming that whatever capacity** 

### 5 **has been chosen is suitable for whatever the** 

### 6 **system, the walk-in is. DOE is not trying to** 

### 7 **describe the walk-in itself.** 

### 8 **MR. CRAIG: Well, you have to have a** 

### 9 **load. To figure the load with the walk-in,** 

### 10 **you would have to know how it was designed.** 

### 11 **MS. COUGHLIN: So the load is just,** 

### 12 **again, --** 

### 13 **MR. CRAIG: Am I correct?** 

### 14 **MS. COUGHLIN: -- it would** 

### 15 **essentially be 20 percent -- that the** 

### 16 **capacity is 20 percent oversized relative to** 

### 17 **the load. And that the load has these duty** 

### 18 **cycles.** 

### 19 **So, we are not trying to explicitly** 

### 20 **model the way the load -- why the load is** 

### 21 **what it is.** 

### 22 **MR. CRAIG: Okay, I think you are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 208**  **1 talking about refrigeration.**  

### 2 **MS. COUGHLIN: This is a** 

### 3 **refrigeration system, yes.** 

### 4 **MR. CRAIG: Okay, you are not** 

### 5 **talking about walk-in panels.** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: No, no panels. That** 

### 7 **is the next slide.** 

### 8 **MR. CRAIG: Never mind.** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's let her** 

### 11 **finish on this slide.** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: I am finished,** 

### 13 **actually.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 15 **Robert.** 

### 16 **MR. WILKINS: But if you have a** 

### 17 **walk-in cooler and it is using X thousand** 

### 18 **BTUs and you have made the wall thickness** 

### 19 **thicker, and you have improved the door, and** 

### 20 **you have done all of these things to the** 

### 21 **envelope, then the refrigeration load is** 

### 22 **less.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 209**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: That's correct.**  

### 2 **MR. WILKINS: Have you considered** 

### 3 **that here?** 

### 4 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, that has been** 

### 5 **considered in the LCC.** 

### 6 **MR. WILKINS: Okay, thank you.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Ellis?** 

### 8 **MR. CRAIG: If it has been** 

### 9 **considered, then you must have considered it** 

### 10 **off that baseline that you had earlier.** 

### 11 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, I mean we will** 

### 12 **get into this in a little more detail but** 

### 13 **yes, there are two aspects of it that are** 

### 14 **considered. And one of them is that the** 

### 15 **capacity at the baseline that is required may** 

### 16 **decrease at a higher efficiency level. So, -** 

### 17 **-** 

### 18 **MR. CRAIG: I guess what I am saying** 

### 19 **is if some of the -- as I had concern if we** 

### 20 **say an existing walk-in or the baseline we** 

### 21 **are picking is not the standard in the** 

### 22 **industry, then what is standard in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 210**  **1 industry there would be a less improvement.**  

### 2 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. CRAIG: Okay, and we are not** 

### 4 **taking that into consideration.** 

### 5 **MS. COUGHLIN: We are taking that** 

### 6 **into consideration. It doesn't appear here.** 

### 7 **So, this is still kind of just an** 

### 8 **analysis approach, that for every efficiency** 

### 9 **level that we have considered, coming up with** 

### 10 **an energy use number. The question of how** 

### 11 **those represent the actual conditions, we** 

### 12 **will get to later.** 

### 13 **MR. CRAIG: Okay, thank you.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 15 **MS. COUGHLIN: So, for the envelope** 

### 16 **components, this is a relatively simplified** 

### 17 **approach. Again, the issue here for DOE is** 

### 18 **that you need to stick pretty close to the** 

### 19 **test procedure in evaluating these** 

### 20 **components. So the energy use estimates for** 

### 21 **the envelope are based essentially on** 

### 22 **transmission loads and the transmission loads**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 211**  **1 are calculated under the test procedure**  

### 2 **conditions.** 

### 3 **In addition to that, if there is a** 

### 4 **direct electrical component energy use in the** 

### 5 **door, particularly, that is included in the** 

### 6 **energy consumption for the door. And, if** 

### 7 **there is an additional refrigeration load** 

### 8 **created by the energy use of those** 

### 9 **components, that is included in the** 

### 10 **transmission calculation.** 

### 11 **And these efficiency metrics were** 

### 12 **calculated for the doors, based on three door** 

### 13 **sizes. So it is a per door metric. And for** 

### 14 **the panels, it is essentially converted to an** 

### 15 **intensity number. So it is an energy loss,** 

### 16 **essentially, per square foot.** 

### 17 **So, the upshot for the refrigeration** 

### 18 **systems is that DOE arrives at with the two** 

### 19 **oversized factors an assumption that the duty** 

### 20 **cycle is 13.3 hours per day for coolers on** 

### 21 **average, in a field, and 15 for freezers.** 

### 22 **And we would welcome any additional**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 212**  **1 comment or data on these assumptions.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis.** 

### 3 **MR. CRAIG: Didn't I just see that** 

### 4 **other chart you had a different amount of run** 

### 5 **time?** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: That was 18 and 16** 

### 7 **before the oversize factors are applied.** 

### 8 **MR. CRAIG: Okay, thank you.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments on** 

### 10 **these values, 13.3 and 15? Mike.** 

### 11 **MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub. I guess I** 

### 12 **don't understand the use of these numbers** 

### 13 **when the 1250 standard has a different set of** 

### 14 **values. So, how did you decide that these** 

### 15 **were better values than the values that are** 

### 16 **going to be regulated for the other parts of** 

### 17 **the system?** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: That was based on** 

### 19 **comments received from the preliminary** 

### 20 **analysis.** 

### 21 **MR. STRAUB: So is the suggestion to** 

### 22 **change the test procedure?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 213**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: No, the suggestion**  

### 2 **was to change these assumptions for the** 

### 3 **energy use analysis.** 

### 4 **In the NOPR, in the section on** 

### 5 **energy use analysis, you can read a summary** 

### 6 **of the comments that were received from the** 

### 7 **stakeholders and what the reasoning was to** 

### 8 **change the assumptions.** 

### 9 **MR. STRAUB: Okay. I guess I don't** 

### 10 **understand. You are using these values but** 

### 11 **the refrigeration system values are different** 

### 12 **values, much lower numbers with respect to --** 

### 13 **MS. COUGHLIN: The AHRI is 8 and 16** 

### 14 **for --** 

### 15 **MR. STRAUB: It's 7.2 and 12.8.** 

### 16 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, so DOE went with** 

### 17 **the preliminary analysis using those** 

### 18 **assumptions and received comments saying no,** 

### 19 **those are wrong, these are the ones you** 

### 20 **should use. So, DOE switched to these** 

### 21 **numbers.** 

### 22 **MR. STRAUB: So, I guess are you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 214**  **1 indicating that the 1250 standard needs to be**  

### 2 **changed?** 

### 3 **MS. COUGHLIN: No.** 

### 4 **MR. STRAUB: So we are going to have** 

### 5 **different values for determining the energy.** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: Well, again, this is** 

### 7 **not part of the test procedure. This is to** 

### 8 **translate the energy use to discuss the** 

### 9 **energy use in the field.** 

### 10 **MR. STRAUB: I understand. But you** 

### 11 **are basing the energy use and then the** 

### 12 **performance or the benefit of additional** 

### 13 **technologies to improve on that. And if this** 

### 14 **baseline number of hours per day is higher** 

### 15 **than what the standard is or the test** 

### 16 **procedure is for the refrigeration system,** 

### 17 **then you are elevating the baseline where you** 

### 18 **are coming from.** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, there is a** 

### 20 **disconnect that people commented on. And I** 

### 21 **am not going to comment on that further.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 215**  **1 MR. CRAIG: I agree with your point**  

### 2 **down there that if we are making the numbers** 

### 3 **fit according to make it save more money,** 

### 4 **that is kind of scary to me because we are** 

### 5 **using this formula or this test procedure to** 

### 6 **come up with actual values that we're** 

### 7 **confident in and yet, we are going to change** 

### 8 **these so that it will look like it would** 

### 9 **maybe save us more money. And, therefore, it** 

### 10 **throws us into Category 4 because the benefit** 

### 11 **is so good, then our analysis is off to the** 

### 12 **point that we are coming to the conclusion** 

### 13 **that the risk versus the benefit, Category 4** 

### 14 **is where we ought to be. But if the benefit** 

### 15 **isn't that much, maybe Category 2 is where we** 

### 16 **would be or Category 3 is where we should be.** 

### 17 **So, I have a hard time with the** 

### 18 **baseline that of modifying these things and** 

### 19 **saying they run longer. That doesn't make** 

### 20 **sense.** 

### 21 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right. Once again,** 

### 22 **DOE made the modifications based on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 216**  **1 stakeholder comment that industry practice is**  

### 2 **better represented by what is in the current** 

### 3 **analysis. If you would like to comment on** 

### 4 **that further, please, that is very welcome.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Joanna.** 

### 6 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I think** 

### 7 **the purpose of the energy analysis is to try** 

### 8 **to come up with the best estimate of what** 

### 9 **actual energy use is in the field, or some** 

### 10 **distribution of energy use, which may or may** 

### 11 **not line up exactly with what is in the test** 

### 12 **procedure. But I think DOE is attempting to,** 

### 13 **in the energy analysis, really reflect what** 

### 14 **the equipment will use in the field, not as** 

### 15 **tested.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie** 

### 17 **Stephens.** 

### 18 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. I** 

### 19 **have been doing this a long time and it is** 

### 20 **rare that I have seen a case where whatever** 

### 21 **is used in the test procedure actually lines** 

### 22 **up with the real world, but then there is two**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 217**  **1 different purposes.**  

### 2 **Generally, the test procedure is for** 

### 3 **rating one system or one piece of equipment** 

### 4 **against another or against a standard against** 

### 5 **a repeatable set of conditions. And there is** 

### 6 **nothing repeatable about what I find in the** 

### 7 **field.** 

### 8 **So, it is basically, I don't** 

### 9 **necessarily see the alignment that has to be** 

### 10 **there. In some cases, it is better that it** 

### 11 **is. But I did run some numbers based on what** 

### 12 **was in the old analysis. I didn't comment on** 

### 13 **this particular thing in the original** 

### 14 **analysis but I am fairly confident that the** 

### 15 **change from what we had in the previous** 

### 16 **analysis to this one will make virtually no** 

### 17 **difference in what decision would come out on** 

### 18 **this particular issue, in terms of energy** 

### 19 **use.** 

### 20 **In other words, if I use the energy** 

### 21 **use on the one-hour less difference, I don't** 

### 22 **think you would arrive at a different**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 218**  **1 conclusion.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey.** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I** 

### 4 **guess I get drawn to that 13.3 hours per day** 

### 5 **figure as the run time. And having sort of a** 

### 6 **contrary mind, it leads me to think if it is** 

### 7 **only running 60 percent of the time, that** 

### 8 **would sort of suggest that if I had a** 

### 9 **modulating compressor, it would run the** 

### 10 **evaporator a little bit warmer and that would** 

### 11 **tremendously affect the amount of defrost I** 

### 12 **might have to do.** 

### 13 **And what we have here, it seems to** 

### 14 **me without being an expert on the rating** 

### 15 **method, that 1250 is working against what we** 

### 16 **are really trying to achieve in energy** 

### 17 **savings by the way it is not looking** 

### 18 **appropriately, as I understand it, and I need** 

### 19 **to reread it, at part load efficiency. So we** 

### 20 **are getting an interactive effect that** 

### 21 **compounds some of the problems of looking at** 

### 22 **our energy saving potential.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 219**  **1 End of rant.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Go ahead,** 

### 3 **Robert.** 

### 4 **MR. WILKINS: I was sitting here** 

### 5 **trying to figure out how to comment on this** 

### 6 **in a succinct sort of way and Harvey always** 

### 7 **does it better than I. But if that unit is** 

### 8 **only running 13 to 15 hours per day, there is** 

### 9 **huge energy saving possibilities by dialing** 

### 10 **it down and running it at part load** 

### 11 **conditions and save 30 percent or 40 percent** 

### 12 **of the energy. A huge amount of energy** 

### 13 **savings compared to the amounts that we are** 

### 14 **trying to eke out at full load conditions.** 

### 15 **But this refrigeration system is not** 

### 16 **going to be rated to perform at these part** 

### 17 **load conditions, it is going to be rated at** 

### 18 **full load conditions.** 

### 19 **So, we are losing an opportunity to** 

### 20 **achieve huge energy savings in a system** 

### 21 **approach, by managing the individual** 

### 22 **components.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 220**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and I** 

### 3 **just want to add to that. We really don't** 

### 4 **sing in harmony very often but it escapes me** 

### 5 **now.** 

### 6 **MR. WILKINS: You're not that old.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please say** 

### 8 **your name.** 

### 9 **MR. HAALA: Hi, This is Andrew Haala** 

### 10 **with Hussmann.** 

### 11 **Were these hours just used in the** 

### 12 **economic basis or were these also used to** 

### 13 **figure out the AWEF values?** 

### 14 **MS. COUGHLIN: I am going to pass** 

### 15 **that to the engineering team.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Rebecca.** 

### 17 **MS. LEGETT: The AWEF values in the** 

### 18 **engineering analysis are based on rating,** 

### 19 **using the test procedure, the AHRI 1250 test** 

### 20 **procedure. I believe these values here are** 

### 21 **used for economic analysis.** 

### 22 **MR. HAALA: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 221**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie.**  

### 2 **MR. STEPHENS: Well, let me just add** 

### 3 **that this is a common problem. Part load is** 

### 4 **almost never accounted for in test** 

### 5 **procedures. We have been asking AHRI for a** 

### 6 **very, very long time why there is no test** 

### 7 **procedure at all for variable capacity** 

### 8 **refrigerant-based heat pumps and air** 

### 9 **conditioning systems but so far it hasn't** 

### 10 **gotten us a test procedure that would look at** 

### 11 **part load.** 

### 12 **So, it is not uncommon that the test** 

### 13 **procedure can't reflect all of the** 

### 14 **opportunities that there are but yes, it is** 

### 15 **probably the case. In case it exists and we** 

### 16 **will have to change --** 

### 17 **MR. WILKINS: Well it is the chicken** 

### 18 **and the egg. You have got to start** 

### 19 **somewhere.** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: Well, we usually** 

### 21 **start by measuring and we can do that. And I** 

### 22 **am working with some manufacturers to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 222**  **1 actually do that but it may be a while before**  

### 2 **we get a test procedure, years in fact. And** 

### 3 **I think we are kind of stuck with what we** 

### 4 **have.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: I remember now what I** 

### 7 **wanted to add. This is Harvey.** 

### 8 **The first rule I learned in this** 

### 9 **field was that nobody ever called a plumber** 

### 10 **at midnight on Christmas to complain that his** 

### 11 **boiler was too large. In the same sense, my** 

### 12 **instinct tells me that the actual oversize in** 

### 13 **the refrigeration system is generally** 

### 14 **probably larger than is reflected in your ten** 

### 15 **percent adjustment for capacity** 

### 16 **discontinuities.** 

### 17 **And to the extent that the actual** 

### 18 **installed system is more oversized, which may** 

### 19 **be reflecting fears of climate warming or** 

### 20 **something else, to the extent that it is** 

### 21 **oversized, we are actually underestimating** 

### 22 **the potential value of modulating compressor**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 223**  **1 and other valuable capacity alternatives.**  

### 2 **This is important.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 4 **MR. McHUGH: So, I think there is a** 

### 5 **number of folks in this room that were** 

### 6 **involved in the AHRI 1250 standard** 

### 7 **development. And you know there was a** 

### 8 **consensus agreement on how many hours to use** 

### 9 **for -- number of hours, or fraction of time,** 

### 10 **or duty cycle that it cycled on and off. And** 

### 11 **to some extent, AHRI 1250 does account for** 

### 12 **part load operation. The issue, though, is** 

### 13 **that -- my understanding is that this** 

### 14 **analysis is assuming kind of a worst case.** 

### 15 **It is not requiring that all dedicated** 

### 16 **condensing units be variable refrigerant** 

### 17 **flow.** 

### 18 **So, the assumption is that these** 

### 19 **compressors are cycling on and off and the** 

### 20 **AHRI 1250 has a method for evaluating** 

### 21 **compressors cycling on and off. And so you** 

### 22 **can take account for if you have fan control.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 224**  **1 So are you dropping the fan speed during the**  

### 2 **off cycle, are you not? Those kinds of** 

### 3 **things are actually captured in the AWEF** 

### 4 **calculation.** 

### 5 **The DOE test procedure they have** 

### 6 **already essentially agreed to use AHRI 1250.** 

### 7 **I actually think there are some problems with** 

### 8 **AHRI 1250. But the fact is when they came** 

### 9 **back and then said well, we are going to** 

### 10 **start off with the assumptions that are in** 

### 11 **AHRI 1250, they got comments and people said** 

### 12 **no, we actually think that the oversizing is** 

### 13 **less bad than what the AHRI 1250 assumes.** 

### 14 **And so, as a result, they are responding to** 

### 15 **that.** 

### 16 **Do we actually then cycle back** 

### 17 **around and re-modify 1250? We could, right?** 

### 18 **I mean there is nothing that stops us. But** 

### 19 **my assumption is that DOE is going to --** 

### 20 **right now in the status of you have adopted** 

### 21 **AHRI 1250, whatever the year is, I don't** 

### 22 **know, it is 2012 -- what's that-- 2009.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 225**  **1 You know it is something that could**  

### 2 **be improved in the future but I guess the** 

### 3 **question is, is what are expecting, given** 

### 4 **that some folks are saying that things are** 

### 5 **oversized even more. And it is not** 

### 6 **surprising things are oversized because of** 

### 7 **the health. It is not like a house you got** 

### 8 **too hot. If you don't have enough capacity,** 

### 9 **you spoil food, and someone dies, that is a** 

### 10 **bigger deal.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We are going** 

### 12 **to move on now.** 

### 13 **MS. COUGHLIN: I will just make sure** 

### 14 **that if people would like to read the** 

### 15 **comments that were submitted on the sizing** 

### 16 **issue after the preliminary analysis, they** 

### 17 **are published in the NOPR notice.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis has got** 

### 19 **a quick comment.** 

### 20 **MR. CRAIG: Just one simple** 

### 21 **question. When the interested parties send** 

### 22 **in the new information that the DOE decided**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 226**  **1 to take, was that done out of an opinion or**  

### 2 **was it done out of field testing?** 

### 3 **MS. COUGHLIN: You mean the** 

### 4 **comments?** 

### 5 **MR. CRAIG: Yes, was it based on** 

### 6 **field testing of what actually is going on** 

### 7 **out there or was it based on what people** 

### 8 **think was going on out there?** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: I'm not going to --** 

### 10 **MR. LEWIS: We provided a number of** 

### 11 **those comments. What we have got is the way** 

### 12 **we size refrigeration, and we don't oversize** 

### 13 **it, Harvey, because we are in a competitive** 

### 14 **marketplace, and we go ahead and do the heat** 

### 15 **load computation on the envelope. There is a** 

### 16 **ten percent safety factor that everybody from** 

### 17 **Bohn, Russell, whoever does for the** 

### 18 **randomness of what the restaurant people do** 

### 19 **that they don't tell you they do, and then we** 

### 20 **take a five percent cushion on that number** 

### 21 **and pick the next available matched system** 

### 22 **size because the more you go over, the more**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 227**  **1 it costs.**  

### 2 **If you go over very much, it short** 

### 3 **cycles. It doesn't work. And we have got to** 

### 4 **fix everything that doesn't work. So, we** 

### 5 **don't go crazy. And we also can't afford to** 

### 6 **tell everybody ‘‘okay one horse would do,’’ I** 

### 7 **am going to sell you two horse so you never** 

### 8 **call me. Because they are going to call me** 

### 9 **because it is going to be just too humid in** 

### 10 **there because you are not going to control** 

### 11 **humidity.** 

### 12 **So, there is a lot of scientific to** 

### 13 **this short of rocket science. And what we** 

### 14 **have got, Ellis, is 50 years of doing** 

### 15 **business and at least 30 years since I did** 

### 16 **the computer program on this methodology in** 

### 17 **consult with Bohn and later with Russell.** 

### 18 **And you know, we have got two people a year** 

### 19 **out of 2,000 sales that we get into. Most of** 

### 20 **the time, they have done something they** 

### 21 **didn't tell you about.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'm eager for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 228**  **1 us to move on. Thank you Harmon.**  

### 2 **MS. COUGHLIN: So we will be moving** 

### 3 **now into the life-cycle cost and payback** 

### 4 **period analysis.** 

### 5 **So again, this is the life-cycle** 

### 6 **cost now from the perspective of the** 

### 7 **purchaser of the equipment.** 

### 8 **So the purpose of the life-cycle** 

### 9 **cost is to develop particularly the life** 

### 10 **cycle cost savings that the customer will see** 

### 11 **under a potential standard level and** 

### 12 **determine whether there are savings.** 

### 13 **Our convention is to define the** 

### 14 **savings as a positive number. So, when you** 

### 15 **see a positive number, that means the** 

### 16 **consumer ends up with some extra cash in** 

### 17 **their pocket. And a negative number means** 

### 18 **they are losing money on the standard.** 

### 19 **So the basic idea with the life** 

### 20 **cycle cost, again, there is a lot of detail,** 

### 21 **but conceptually, it is very simple. You** 

### 22 **have the purchase price plus the installation**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 229**  **1 cost that gives what we call the total**  

### 2 **installed cost. And then you have the** 

### 3 **operating expenses, which is a combination of** 

### 4 **energy costs to run the equipment and then** 

### 5 **any maintenance costs and repair costs that** 

### 6 **occur on a regular basis.** 

### 7 **So, those two terms provide the** 

### 8 **life-cycle cost. And over the lifetime of** 

### 9 **the equipment, DOE follows standard** 

### 10 **accounting practices and discounts the** 

### 11 **operating costs to arrive at a net present** 

### 12 **value, which is the single life-cycle cost** 

### 13 **number that we use.** 

### 14 **So, when we look at the different** 

### 15 **standard levels, we look at the change in the** 

### 16 **total installed cost, which is an expense** 

### 17 **that purchaser has, and then we look at the** 

### 18 **change in the operating costs, which are** 

### 19 **savings to the purchaser. And the balance of** 

### 20 **those two gives the change in the life-cycle** 

### 21 **cost.** 

### 22 **And because there are very many**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 230**  **1 individual conditions, such as cost of**  

### 2 **capital, electricity prices, details about** 

### 3 **the particular segment, industry segment and** 

### 4 **how they use the equipment, DOE uses a Monte** 

### 5 **Carlo simulation method, which is just a way** 

### 6 **to take say instead of using a single number** 

### 7 **to represent the discount rate for a user, we** 

### 8 **use a distribution and we sample a bunch of** 

### 9 **different values from that distribution. So,** 

### 10 **that is done for lifetimes, for discount** 

### 11 **rates, and energy prices are usually not** 

### 12 **random but they have a lot of detail in them** 

### 13 **at the regional level and also by business** 

### 14 **type.** 

### 15 **So, when we define the life-cycle** 

### 16 **cost savings, we choose a base case and we** 

### 17 **compare that to the standards case.** 

### 18 **Now, the base case here is not the** 

### 19 **same as the baseline in the engineering. So,** 

### 20 **this is where we attempt to look at the** 

### 21 **actual market for the equipment at the time** 

### 22 **when the standard would be enacted. So**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 231**  **1 again, there is a great deal of detail.**  

### 2 **Actually, if you have the notice,** 

### 3 **there is a table in the notice, Table IV-16,** 

### 4 **that gives you a breakdown of the base case** 

### 5 **assumptions about efficiency in the** 

### 6 **marketplace. The highlights are, I think** 

### 7 **about -- for the refrigeration equipment, I** 

### 8 **believe 75 percent of the market is assumed** 

### 9 **to be at the baseline in the engineering and** 

### 10 **25 percent is more efficient.** 

### 11 **I think for display doors, it is** 

### 12 **reversed; 75 percent of the market for** 

### 13 **display doors is assumed to be above the** 

### 14 **minimum standard and 25 percent is at the** 

### 15 **baseline. And then there is a little more** 

### 16 **detail on how those things are defined in the** 

### 17 **NOPR.** 

### 18 **And again, for these products,** 

### 19 **because they haven't been previously** 

### 20 **regulated, there is not a lot of information** 

### 21 **about the current market. And if anyone** 

### 22 **would like to comment on those assumptions,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 232**  **1 we can incorporate those comments into the**  

### 2 **analysis.** 

### 3 **The other metric that DOE calculates** 

### 4 **is called the payback period or simple** 

### 5 **payback. This is the ratio of the magnitude** 

### 6 **of the change in total installed cost to the** 

### 7 **magnitude of the operating cost savings. And** 

### 8 **this is if you don't discount the operating** 

### 9 **costs, this is essentially the number of** 

### 10 **years it takes to pay back your initial** 

### 11 **investment.** 

### 12 **So, if the total installed cost goes** 

### 13 **up by say $100, the operating costs go down** 

### 14 **by $50, then I am going to get a payback of** 

### 15 **two years. In two years of reduced operating** 

### 16 **costs, I recover my initial investment.** 

### 17 **So, this flow chart is again, it is** 

### 18 **a somewhat generic flow chart. It describes** 

### 19 **these analyses that DOE does are essentially** 

### 20 **very similar for all products. So, if we** 

### 21 **start at the left-hand side of the chart, the** 

### 22 **output that we want is the life-cycle cost.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 233**  **1 So, moving towards the -- sorry, the right**  

### 2 **hand side moving toward to the left. So, the** 

### 3 **two primary inputs to the LCC are the** 

### 4 **lifetime operating expense and the total** 

### 5 **installed cost.** 

### 6 **The total installed cost is a** 

### 7 **composition of the customer price and** 

### 8 **installation cost and everything that went** 

### 9 **into the customer price that we have already** 

### 10 **discussed is tabulated over there at the far** 

### 11 **left of the chart.** 

### 12 **And then on the bottom, we have at** 

### 13 **the far right we want to calculate the** 

### 14 **lifetime operating expense. So, the way that** 

### 15 **is done in the model is to calculate an** 

### 16 **annual operating expense associated with this** 

### 17 **energy use and the energy price. The** 

### 18 **lifetime of the equipment, which is going to** 

### 19 **be a variable chosen from a distribution.** 

### 20 **There is a discount rate which is appropriate** 

### 21 **to a particular business type, and then we** 

### 22 **also incorporate electricity price trends**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 234**  **1 into these analyses.**  

### 2 **Included in the annual operating** 

### 3 **expense are repair costs and maintenance** 

### 4 **costs. There can be a bit of an overlap** 

### 5 **between the two conceptually but repair costs** 

### 6 **are generally, something is actually broken** 

### 7 **say once every several years and is routinely** 

### 8 **being repaired. And we take those costs and** 

### 9 **we annualize them and add them to the annual** 

### 10 **operating expense.** 

### 11 **Maintenance costs are things that** 

### 12 **are much more sort of routine maintenance to** 

### 13 **keep the equipment functioning.** 

### 14 **And energy consumption, we have** 

### 15 **already discussed.** 

### 16 **So, in slightly more detail, the** 

### 17 **installation costs, there is the RSMeans** 

### 18 **Mechanical Costs Data Handbook, which is used** 

### 19 **to estimate labor and materials cost** 

### 20 **associated with installation; also used to** 

### 21 **estimate maintenance costs.** 

### 22 **Discount rates, there is a database**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 235**  **1 online, which DOE uses to develop discount**  

### 2 **rates for say food sales, food services,** 

### 3 **whatever sub-sectors are relevant to the** 

### 4 **equipment.** 

### 5 **Electricity prices for this analysis** 

### 6 **were based on data collected by the energy** 

### 7 **information agency. They do a very, very** 

### 8 **broad ranging data collection activity that** 

### 9 **allows DOE to estimate prices both by region** 

### 10 **and by customer sector.** 

### 11 **And then the electricity price** 

### 12 **trend, since this is discussing the future,** 

### 13 **the standard is expected to come into effect** 

### 14 **in 2017 and the analysis period is 30 years** 

### 15 **long. DOE uses the Annual Energy Outlook or** 

### 16 **AEO, the most recently published version to** 

### 17 **get the electricity price projections over** 

### 18 **the lifetime of the equipment.** 

### 19 **For the lifetime, there is, DOE** 

### 20 **uses, again it is a standard thing, in** 

### 21 **failure analysis the Weibull distribution** 

### 22 **with a median lifetime. And minimum and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 236**  **1 maximum lifetimes are somewhat arbitrary**  

### 2 **because they don't really affect the analysis** 

### 3 **very much. So, this is the set of values** 

### 4 **that were used in this analysis for the** 

### 5 **doors, the refrigeration system and the** 

### 6 **envelope.** 

### 7 **There has been some discussion of** 

### 8 **the difference -- in the preliminary** 

### 9 **analysis, there was some discussion of the** 

### 10 **difference between the economic lifetime and** 

### 11 **the physical lifetime. The physical lifetime** 

### 12 **is the time to mechanical failure. The** 

### 13 **economic lifetime is the time that the unit** 

### 14 **is in use before it is thrown away,** 

### 15 **essentially.** 

### 16 **The economic lifetime is the one** 

### 17 **that is relevant to this analysis.** 

### 18 **So essentially, these lifetime** 

### 19 **differences, they are pretty small. The fact** 

### 20 **that the envelope is 15 years and the** 

### 21 **refrigeration system is 12 years has very** 

### 22 **little impact on the overall analysis.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 237**  **1 Any comment?**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do we have a** 

### 3 **comment or a question?** 

### 4 **MS. COUGHLIN: Comments? Questions?** 

### 5 **So, one of the issues that came up** 

### 6 **in the preliminary analysis is the relative** 

### 7 **rapid turnover of some small businesses and** 

### 8 **the likelihood that they are using used** 

### 9 **equipment, rather than new equipment. So,** 

### 10 **DOE would be interested in understanding** 

### 11 **anything that anyone can share with us about** 

### 12 **the market for used equipment and whether** 

### 13 **that is likely to be affected by the passage** 

### 14 **of the standard.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And further,** 

### 16 **as you see in the comment box, if the useful** 

### 17 **life of the refrigeration system will be 12** 

### 18 **years and other components 15 years due to** 

### 19 **active use equipment. What do you think, are** 

### 20 **those close to the mark? David.** 

### 21 **MR. GRIFE: David from Arctic. I** 

### 22 **was listening to this whole thing and it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 238**  **1 seems like a lot of it is about making sure**  

### 2 **that we do justify that we are setting these** 

### 3 **new energy standards then they will have** 

### 4 **payback in energy to our user. I'm not sure** 

### 5 **though if we are doing it from the end and** 

### 6 **trying to work our way back or we are letting** 

### 7 **information flow and really seeing if it very** 

### 8 **profitable or more efficient from an energy.** 

### 9 **But this is true, the industry does have such** 

### 10 **a huge rate of turnover, more than anybody** 

### 11 **else.** 

### 12 **I mean, I have customers say to me I** 

### 13 **don't know if we are going to be in business** 

### 14 **in two years. I don't know if I can afford** 

### 15 **all of the LED lights and all these energy** 

### 16 **efficiencies. I may not be around.** 

### 17 **So, these do need to be looked at.** 

### 18 **Twelve, fifteen years is a long time. We do** 

### 19 **have a lot of these that are small businesses** 

### 20 **and they may not be using the same standards.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Fred?** 

### 22 **MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 239**  **1 some issue with average lifetime for doors.**  

### 2 **The doors are the only moving part in the** 

### 3 **envelope and they are the only ones that get** 

### 4 **abuse and serious abuse. And I have never** 

### 5 **seen one last 14 years. Very, very seldom.** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 8 **MR. MINELLI: So, I think that** 

### 9 **number is very high.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert.** 

### 11 **MR. WILKINS: With most of our** 

### 12 **customers, a typical replacement of the** 

### 13 **entire box is ten years. And it is through** 

### 14 **abuse. It is not because of something** 

### 15 **happens. It doesn't just disintegrate. It** 

### 16 **is through abuse.** 

### 17 **So, in that ten years before** 

### 18 **replacing the entire box, they probably would** 

### 19 **replace the door three times.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon, I saw** 

### 21 **you giving the signal. What is your** 

### 22 **question?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 240**  **1 MR. LEWIS: Yes, I think you are**  

### 2 **probably in the ten-year realm. The doors** 

### 3 **are protected with a kick plate, perhaps,** 

### 4 **both in and out to keep the abuse down would** 

### 5 **be good. We sell probably, along with 2,000** 

### 6 **new walk-ins each year we are selling, we** 

### 7 **probably sell 100 replacement doors -- not** 

### 8 **for those but for the 40,000 walk-ins we have** 

### 9 **made before that. A lot of those walk-ins** 

### 10 **have disappeared out of the marketplace but** 

### 11 **people that do continue to operate,** 

### 12 **particularly chain accounts, they are not** 

### 13 **going to turn that equipment over like the** 

### 14 **small restaurants. They will be there 15 and** 

### 15 **20 years because we have got corporate** 

### 16 **clients that are like that and they will buy** 

### 17 **a door maybe every 10 or 15 years but they** 

### 18 **bought kick plates at the start. So, they** 

### 19 **spent $200 to save a $1,000 later on. So,** 

### 20 **it's all in what they can afford.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes,** 

### 22 **Fred.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 241**  **1 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I want**  

### 2 **to add that that is probably true for foot** 

### 3 **traffic boxes. But for pallet jacks, lift** 

### 4 **trucks, there is no way. They just will not** 

### 5 **last that long.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, final** 

### 7 **comments here? Yes, Robert.** 

### 8 **MR. WILKINS: Just a brief comment.** 

### 9 **It seems to me this horizon viewpoint is one** 

### 10 **issue. And I don't know how analytically to** 

### 11 **deal with it. But if I am a restaurant, I** 

### 12 **don't care what is going on two or four years** 

### 13 **out, I have just got to survive this year and** 

### 14 **the next. And it creates this very short** 

### 15 **term mentality. I think you are probably on** 

### 16 **the right track but you have just got to** 

### 17 **consider that factor.** 

### 18 **The other thing that I would say is** 

### 19 **listening to this, the refrigeration life is** 

### 20 **12 years and the box is 15 years. There is** 

### 21 **no way that you are going to replace a 12-** 

### 22 **year-old refrigeration system if you don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 242**  **1 expect the box to live but three more years,**  

### 2 **or vice-versa. So there is kind of a** 

### 3 **practical assumption of what is the life of** 

### 4 **the system. It is just like your car. You** 

### 5 **are not going to replace the engine if you** 

### 6 **have got 200,000 miles on it, even if the** 

### 7 **rest of the car has two more years on it.** 

### 8 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So these are** 

### 9 **statistical means which allows for a lot of** 

### 10 **detailed matching of these things.** 

### 11 **MR. WILKINS: I realize that and I** 

### 12 **appreciate the dilemma you have but then you** 

### 13 **have got to come down to a practical** 

### 14 **assumption that it is only going to last --** 

### 15 **if one of the two major components fails in** 

### 16 **12 years, the whole thing is gone and you** 

### 17 **start over.** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: So, I guess that** 

### 19 **would be -- so, I would like to clarify** 

### 20 **because this is an important component of the** 

### 21 **modeling.** 

### 22 **It is a statement then that if a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 243**  **1 refrigeration system fails, that the user**  

### 2 **will actually rebuild the box?** 

### 3 **MR. WILKINS: Well, if he looks at** 

### 4 **his box and says it is only going to last** 

### 5 **another year or two, am I really going to** 

### 6 **invest in a 12-year refrigeration system?** 

### 7 **Practically, no.** 

### 8 **MS. COUGHLIN: But the question is** 

### 9 **so that is what they would hypothetically do.** 

### 10 **I guess what I am wondering is does anyone** 

### 11 **know what people actually do? Is there a** 

### 12 **clear trend in the industry for both the** 

### 13 **envelope and the refrigeration system to be** 

### 14 **replaced simultaneously?** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon.** 

### 16 **MR. LEWIS: Yes, Harmon with** 

### 17 **American Panel. What we will see the whole** 

### 18 **refrigeration system doesn't fail.** 

### 19 **Typically, it is going to the compressor.** 

### 20 **The condenser, if they clean it, it is okay.** 

### 21 **The controls are okay. And within the unit** 

### 22 **cooler, typically it is an evaporator fan**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 244**  **1 motor.**  

### 2 **In hard economic times, we sell** 

### 3 **fewer new walk-ins and we sell more** 

### 4 **replacement doors and more replacement fan** 

### 5 **motors and the like. So, it is all in what** 

### 6 **people can afford and that market will adapt.** 

### 7 **But customers are going to look at it, if I** 

### 8 **can afford a new walk-in, rather than a door,** 

### 9 **maybe it is time to do it. But if I can't,** 

### 10 **I'll put the door on now and two years from** 

### 11 **now when I have made some more money, they** 

### 12 **will do it.** 

### 13 **Even our big chain accounts, they** 

### 14 **wouldn't invest on a two-year payback on LED** 

### 15 **lights. They just won't. And this is people** 

### 16 **we sell 100 walk-ins a year to because that** 

### 17 **is too long and they are looking at things 20** 

### 18 **years down the road. So, there is going to** 

### 19 **be some economic part there that just doesn't** 

### 20 **match your model.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie.** 

### 22 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 245**  **1 Air Conditioning Contractors of America. I**  

### 2 **am going to add something, too, which is the** 

### 3 **depreciation schedule on this equipment** 

### 4 **doesn't line up with the expected life span.** 

### 5 **So, a restaurant or facility owner doesn't** 

### 6 **see incentive. Now, that is not something** 

### 7 **that DOE can do anything about. I will take** 

### 8 **that to Congress and the Treasury.** 

### 9 **But I did want to say that I think** 

### 10 **this is a very important question if you are** 

### 11 **looking for input on. But nobody in this** 

### 12 **room right now can really speak to this. And** 

### 13 **I would suggest that DOE reach out to** 

### 14 **restaurant, convenience stores, whoever it is** 

### 15 **that has this equipment.** 

### 16 **So often we see the entity not at** 

### 17 **the table in the room discussing it is the** 

### 18 **one that finds themselves regulated or the** 

### 19 **one holding the bag, so to speak. So, my** 

### 20 **suggestion is DOE reach out to the Restaurant** 

### 21 **Association and anybody else who may provide** 

### 22 **a better idea of whether this is reasonable**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 246**  **1 or so that DOE can better understand the**  

### 2 **useful life.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 4 **Yes, Fred?** 

### 5 **MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I would** 

### 6 **like to add to that that cooler and freezers,** 

### 7 **our industry is really segmented. The food** 

### 8 **service is way different than supermarkets** 

### 9 **and big box clubs and they are different than** 

### 10 **convenience stores.** 

### 11 **Probably a better breakdown would be** 

### 12 **a segmented breakdown and that big box and** 

### 13 **supermarkets, ten years max for the entire** 

### 14 **box and the doors will be changed three times** 

### 15 **in that ten years. That is an honest number.** 

### 16 **That is a real number.** 

### 17 **But in food service, where you don't** 

### 18 **have pallet jacks and lift trucks, you can** 

### 19 **get ten years.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 21 **you. Charlie.** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: I would add one thing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 247**  **1 here, especially when it comes to things like**  

### 2 **LED lights. There is a lot of things that** 

### 3 **people invest in that are not based on a** 

### 4 **payback period. I don't think we know** 

### 5 **anybody who is buying LED lights right now at** 

### 6 **the cost that they are for the energy payback** 

### 7 **compared to fluorescent. It's not there.** 

### 8 **They buy them for other values like they** 

### 9 **don't change the color of what they shine on.** 

### 10 **If you really want what you are lighting up** 

### 11 **to be its true color, LEDs do a much better** 

### 12 **job than a lot of other lighting products** 

### 13 **that are reasonably efficient. The other** 

### 14 **thing is, they hold up on off cycles.** 

### 15 **Maintenance is a big factor. You know, you** 

### 16 **don't have to change the things out. And if** 

### 17 **it is hard to do that, then it is a real big** 

### 18 **value to you.** 

### 19 **So you know, I wouldn't be making** 

### 20 **all those decisions that I am seeing, in some** 

### 21 **of these cases, just on energy payback, even** 

### 22 **though that tends to be what the analysis is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 248**  **1 all about. That would be a mistake. But I**  

### 2 **also would value the comment of what the** 

### 3 **other Charlie just said. I think this is an** 

### 4 **important enough issue that it would merit** 

### 5 **some research to get some better answers, if** 

### 6 **we can.** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: DOE did receive, did** 

### 8 **reach out to I believe the Food Equipment** 

### 9 **Manufacturers Association and the National** 

### 10 **Restaurant Association, who submitted data on** 

### 11 **shipments. So, there is an overall** 

### 12 **consistency check again that we can do on the** 

### 13 **shipments model. If the lifetimes are** 

### 14 **completely wrong, you are not going to be** 

### 15 **able to predict shipments correctly.** 

### 16 **So, in an average sense, this does** 

### 17 **not deal with change of ownership. It just** 

### 18 **says that if say in a small restaurant space** 

### 19 **something gets installed, it is going to be** 

### 20 **stay there around 10 to 15 years. So that** 

### 21 **means if the business owner is turning over,** 

### 22 **they are coming in and using the equipment**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 249**  **1 that is already there. That appears to be**  

### 2 **consistent with what we have currently on** 

### 3 **shipments data.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jim.** 

### 5 **MR. KINSER: Jim Kinser. It has** 

### 6 **just been our experience that pizza stores** 

### 7 **and C stores generally will move locations or** 

### 8 **at least remodel every ten years.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 10 **you. Let's move on.** 

### 11 **MS. COUGHLIN: So maintenance costs** 

### 12 **were based on what is in the RS Means report** 

### 13 **for this type of equipment. They are not** 

### 14 **broken down into dealing with the** 

### 15 **refrigeration system versus the rest of the** 

### 16 **system. So, DOE, after reviewing the various** 

### 17 **relevant activities associated with** 

### 18 **refrigeration maintenance, arrived at a** 

### 19 **figure of approximately $150 a year for the** 

### 20 **refrigeration system and the remainder** 

### 21 **assigned to envelope maintenance.** 

### 22 **These are not currently expected to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 250**  **1 change with efficiency level. However, when**  

### 2 **an efficiency level involves a change in the** 

### 3 **lighting type, then the lighting maintenance** 

### 4 **costs are included for that efficiency level.** 

### 5 **So, DOE would like to refine its** 

### 6 **understanding of the costs associated with** 

### 7 **refrigerants and refrigerant charges and** 

### 8 **would appreciate any comment on that.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What do you** 

### 10 **think? Yes, Buzz.** 

### 11 **MR. SCHAEFFER: I have a question.** 

### 12 **You are saying that you are assuming that the** 

### 13 **maintenance will not change.** 

### 14 **MS. COUGHLIN: Routine maintenance.** 

### 15 **Repair costs is a different thing and that** 

### 16 **does change with efficiency level. So,** 

### 17 **things like replacing the compressor or** 

### 18 **something like that would scale with the** 

### 19 **price of the equipment.** 

### 20 **MR. SCHAEFFER: Okay.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon?** 

### 22 **MR. LEWIS: As far as the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 251**  **1 maintenance cost, the warranty claims that we**  

### 2 **are dealing with around the country, the** 

### 3 **average refrigeration guy is $50 to $75 an** 

### 4 **hour in travel time. So it would seem like** 

### 5 **that those numbers are probably a little low** 

### 6 **compared to even if somebody signed the** 

### 7 **maintenance contract with them, they are** 

### 8 **still going to be paying over half of that.** 

### 9 **So, it may be double what is there.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 11 **you. Charlie.** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 13 **Yes, be careful when you read this. These** 

### 14 **are annualized numbers. So, if you get your** 

### 15 **refrigeration guy to show up for $500 every** 

### 16 **three years, it actually translates to a** 

### 17 **number that looks kind of like that. So, I** 

### 18 **mean you have got to be -- it is annualized.** 

### 19 **So it is not -- because some things don't** 

### 20 **happen every year. So I just caution people** 

### 21 **when you read that that this is annual** 

### 22 **number.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 252**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional**  

### 2 **thoughts on maintenance costs? Okay.** 

### 3 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So, that is** 

### 4 **the end of the description of the LCC. And** 

### 5 **then I will be presenting some LCC results** 

### 6 **for TSLs. I wanted to comment on the process** 

### 7 **that is used to define the TSLs before we** 

### 8 **move there because it is a little** 

### 9 **complicated, especially having moved from the** 

### 10 **analysis of assembled units to this** 

### 11 **component-based analysis.** 

### 12 **So, terminology-wise, the analysis** 

### 13 **points that we are studying in the** 

### 14 **engineering are referred to as efficiency** 

### 15 **levels. They represent a particular set of** 

### 16 **design options, to which you can assign a** 

### 17 **cost and an energy use.** 

### 18 **So, those efficiency levels are** 

### 19 **then, in a preliminary step, DOE generates** 

### 20 **LCC results for each product class and** 

### 21 **capacity point independently simply to look** 

### 22 **at the cost effectiveness relative to the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 253**  **1 baseline within that equipment class of a**  

### 2 **particular set of design options.** 

### 3 **So, this is sort of a screening** 

### 4 **analysis that allows you to, first of all,** 

### 5 **get a general picture of the relationship** 

### 6 **between improved efficiency and overall cost,** 

### 7 **independent say of compressor technology and** 

### 8 **to eliminate from the overall picture those** 

### 9 **technology pathways that don't appear to be** 

### 10 **cost-effective because the assumption is no** 

### 11 **one would do that in reality.** 

### 12 **So this preliminary step, then,** 

### 13 **considers the refrigeration system in** 

### 14 **isolation and only looks at what would be** 

### 15 **cost-effective to implement.** 

### 16 **Then, to do the trial standard** 

### 17 **levels, since DOE is jointly regulating the** 

### 18 **refrigeration system and the envelope** 

### 19 **components and they have some influence on** 

### 20 **one another, DOE takes the results from the** 

### 21 **refrigeration system analysis, chooses some** 

### 22 **representative points, cost and efficiency**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 254**  **1 and then for those set of representative**  

### 2 **efficiencies, it goes forward and does the** 

### 3 **energy consumption numbers for the panels and** 

### 4 **doors. So, essentially it gives you the** 

### 5 **selected AWEF and other factors necessary to** 

### 6 **compute the losses for a particular** 

### 7 **efficiency level for the doors and panels.** 

### 8 **And then in proceeding to the final** 

### 9 **selection of the trial standard level, this** 

### 10 **is going to be a selection of efficiency** 

### 11 **levels for the components and the** 

### 12 **refrigeration system altogether. You look at** 

### 13 **the sum total of the interaction and the** 

### 14 **independent energy savings and NPV, and then** 

### 15 **the interaction of those two.** 

### 16 **So, the final set of TSLs is really** 

### 17 **chosen -- since we have many, many, many** 

### 18 **design options, you can see we have many,** 

### 19 **many, many possible combinations of** 

### 20 **refrigeration systems in various door and** 

### 21 **panel selections. The final set of TSLs is** 

### 22 **really just chosen to represent the full**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 255**  **1 range of costs and benefits. So, we always**  

### 2 **have the bottom, which is the baseline, the** 

### 3 **top which is max tech, and then some points** 

### 4 **in-between that represent that range.** 

### 5 **So this is discussed in detail in** 

### 6 **Appendix 10(D) of the TSD. But again, the** 

### 7 **main thing to keep in mind is that when we** 

### 8 **move from talking about efficiency levels to** 

### 9 **TSLs, a TSL is a prescription of an** 

### 10 **efficiency level for everything, all the** 

### 11 **equipment classes and that it does consider** 

### 12 **the interaction effects between the envelope** 

### 13 **and the refrigeration system.** 

### 14 **Again, tables of results were** 

### 15 **presented in both the NOPR Federal Register** 

### 16 **document and in the TSD. So, this is** 

### 17 **typically what the tables will look like. We** 

### 18 **present the results for the equipment class.** 

### 19 **So, the results for specific capacity points** 

### 20 **have been averaged, using shipments to weight** 

### 21 **those averages. And the columns first** 

### 22 **present the average life-cycle cost for the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 256**  **1 chosen standard level and the LCC savings.**  

### 2 **So, this is relative to the base case, which** 

### 3 **incorporates a mix of efficiencies. Then the** 

### 4 **three percentages that follow take your** 

### 5 **consumer population and segment them into** 

### 6 **those who have a net cost under the standard,** 

### 7 **those who have a net benefit under the** 

### 8 **standard, and those who are not impacted by** 

### 9 **the standard.** 

### 10 **So for example, in the first row for** 

### 11 **the -- this is dedicated condenser, medium** 

### 12 **temperature outdoor units, essentially 100** 

### 13 **percent of the consumers in the sample see a** 

### 14 **benefit associated with this TSL. And the** 

### 15 **final column is this payback period, which is** 

### 16 **two years.** 

### 17 **And for the refrigeration systems,** 

### 18 **pretty much the only the dedicated condensing** 

### 19 **medium indoor and low outdoor have a few** 

### 20 **percent of the consumer population actually** 

### 21 **has a net cost associated with the standard.** 

### 22 **But for the rest, the overwhelming majority**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 257**  **1 have a net benefit.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Ellis?** 

### 3 **MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. It seems** 

### 4 **to me there is a lot higher payback, as you** 

### 5 **talked about, on refrigeration than there is** 

### 6 **on the panel structures, if you look at that.** 

### 7 **And I was wonder why if you look at panel** 

### 8 **return on investment in two years, why they** 

### 9 **would pick such a high class of performance** 

### 10 **in comparison to what is done in** 

### 11 **refrigeration. In other words, we are moving** 

### 12 **our standard way up and the payback is** 

### 13 **terrible, okay over five years. Whereas, if** 

### 14 **you look at refrigeration it is two years or** 

### 15 **half a year or whatever. Why wasn't the** 

### 16 **walk-in panel made so that the amount of** 

### 17 **change we would have to do would be less,** 

### 18 **more in line with the refrigeration?** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: There is a procedure** 

### 20 **for defining the TSLs that looks at the** 

### 21 **actual consumer benefit. So, this TSL** 

### 22 **corresponds, I believe, to maximum NPV for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 258**  **1 both categories of equipment. However, it is**  

### 2 **in magnitude smaller for the panels.** 

### 3 **Again, the energy savings that are** 

### 4 **now included and associated with the panels** 

### 5 **are relatively small because they only** 

### 6 **include the transmission losses.** 

### 7 **MR. CRAIG: You also take into** 

### 8 **consideration the impact it has on the** 

### 9 **manufacturers and small businesses in that** 

### 10 **formula. Correct?** 

### 11 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 12 **MR. CRAIG: Okay, so the impact is** 

### 13 **pretty big on us, obviously, for a lot less** 

### 14 **return on investment. It seems like instead** 

### 15 **of having us have a big capital investment,** 

### 16 **we are going to have put out to get not as** 

### 17 **much return. Why can't we stay where we are** 

### 18 **at?** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: Well, that is** 

### 20 **essentially the process that we are in. So** 

### 21 **again, DOE has a certain set of procedures it** 

### 22 **follows to propose the standard level. And**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 259**  **1 these are associated with those procedures.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jim.** 

### 3 **MR. KINSER: Jim Kinser. Just a** 

### 4 **question. Shouldn't the panel get credit for** 

### 5 **the energy savings of the refrigeration** 

### 6 **system? Because you can put a smaller** 

### 7 **refrigeration system on that cooler because** 

### 8 **you have a more efficient insulated panel.** 

### 9 **So, why wouldn't we get more credit for the** 

### 10 **panel instead of less? Because you can't put** 

### 11 **that small a unit on a poorly insulated walk** 

### 12 **in. Right?** 

### 13 **MS. COUGHLIN: Potentially, yes. I** 

### 14 **don't think that is the way this accounting** 

### 15 **had been done but you could separate it out** 

### 16 **that way, yes.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie.** 

### 18 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, Charlie** 

### 19 **Stephens. Just a quick analysis. I think** 

### 20 **that kind of methodology was a casualty of** 

### 21 **going to a component-based analysis is** 

### 22 **essentially what happened.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 260**  **1 MR. KINSER: Not really because you**  

### 2 **can't --** 

### 3 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, we don't have** 

### 4 **the -- again, these things need to be lined** 

### 5 **up with what can be measured in the test** 

### 6 **procedure. So, it is not clear that you** 

### 7 **could make that fully consistent with the** 

### 8 **test procedure.** 

### 9 **MR. KINSER: Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. STEPHENS: I didn't mean to say** 

### 11 **I disagree because I kind of would like to** 

### 12 **see that happen. But I think it is a** 

### 13 **casualty of the way the analysis ended up** 

### 14 **having to go.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 16 **MS. COUGHLIN: And I would like to** 

### 17 **point out that although there may be a net** 

### 18 **cost for some of these consumers, it is not** 

### 19 **necessarily a large cost. You can see that** 

### 20 **the LCC savings in general are relatively** 

### 21 **small. So, there again, there is more detail** 

### 22 **on these distributions in the technical**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 261**  **1 support document.**  

### 2 **MR. McHUGH: So, I just want to** 

### 3 **clarify what I thought I heard Ellis ask was** 

### 4 **do these LCCs actually incorporate the impact** 

### 5 **on manufacturers. And I thought that this is** 

### 6 **all focused on the end consumer's life-cycle** 

### 7 **cost and payback, not on the manufacturer's** 

### 8 **impact.** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right.** 

### 10 **MR. McHUGH: Did I miss that?** 

### 11 **MS. COUGHLIN: So, when the** 

### 12 **engineering analysis comes up with a** 

### 13 **manufacturer price, they include whatever** 

### 14 **additional capital investment the** 

### 15 **manufacturers may need to make.** 

### 16 **And then there is a separate** 

### 17 **analysis, the manufacturer impact analysis,** 

### 18 **which goes into much more detail about how** 

### 19 **the standard affects manufacturers. But the** 

### 20 **purchase price predicted by the engineering** 

### 21 **analysis should include whatever investments** 

### 22 **are necessary to meet the standard.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 262**  **1 MR. McHUGH: So to the extent that**  

### 2 **impacts on manufacturers impacts the price of** 

### 3 **their product, but this is a consumer -- am I** 

### 4 **missing this? Is this a consumer-based life** 

### 5 **cycle cost?** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, this is a** 

### 7 **consumer -- right. But the price the** 

### 8 **consumer is paying includes the manufacturer** 

### 9 **recovering the investment they made to meet** 

### 10 **the standard.** 

### 11 **MR. McHUGH: Okay. And then even** 

### 12 **though when we look at efficiency measures** 

### 13 **separately in terms of this component** 

### 14 **approach, depending on what efficiency level** 

### 15 **you are at, is a relatively small fraction of** 

### 16 **the total cost of the refrigeration** 

### 17 **equipment. I actually don't see anything** 

### 18 **that would prohibit or prevent someone from** 

### 19 **looking at equipment downsizing as a function** 

### 20 **of the reduction in transmission losses in** 

### 21 **structural panels or anything else.** 

### 22 **Am I missing something there? There**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 263**  **1 is an energy savings and there is also**  

### 2 **potentially a first cost savings associated** 

### 3 **with equipment for the same sized box or even** 

### 4 **for square foot of panel, if you want to look** 

### 5 **at it that way.** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. So, DOE is no** 

### 7 **longer attempting to describe the box** 

### 8 **associated with a given refrigeration system.** 

### 9 **So, all those things are true but they are** 

### 10 **not accounted for here. DOE does account for** 

### 11 **the refrigeration system alone. If** 

### 12 **efficiency improves, you may be able to** 

### 13 **downsize the capacity. And that is included** 

### 14 **in the analysis of the refrigeration system.** 

### 15 **MR. McHUGH: Thanks.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert.** 

### 17 **MR. WILKINS: That was a hypothesis** 

### 18 **about which I was about to ask is that my** 

### 19 **assumption is we have really gotten these** 

### 20 **boxes tight and the doors tight. And we have** 

### 21 **really gotten a very efficient envelope.** 

### 22 **And, therefore, we have downsized the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 264**  **1 refrigeration equipment and it makes that**  

### 2 **economics look good on the refrigeration** 

### 3 **because we have invested in getting a tight** 

### 4 **box. That is what it appears to be.** 

### 5 **And I think I heard you just say** 

### 6 **that.** 

### 7 **MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. If you** 

### 8 **look -- you are talking average savings. Is** 

### 9 **that over the lifetime?** 

### 10 **MS. COUGHLIN: That is correct.** 

### 11 **MR. CRAIG: So we are talking $72,** 

### 12 **$8 on structural panels?** 

### 13 **MS. COUGHLIN: That's correct.** 

### 14 **MR. CRAIG: So over the lifetime of** 

### 15 **that walk-in, this is what it is going to** 

### 16 **save that customer is $8 on a medium-sized** 

### 17 **walk-in and I have got to go out and spend** 

### 18 **all this money to get there?** 

### 19 **Is that what you are saying? Am I** 

### 20 **reading that right? To save that guy $8 over** 

### 21 **the life of his walk-in, I have got to go out** 

### 22 **and spend a quarter of a million dollars or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 265**  **1 have a million dollars on testing? This**  

### 2 **doesn't even make sense. The numbers just** 

### 3 **don't make sense, guys. I mean the maximum** 

### 4 **you are going to save anybody is on a display** 

### 5 **door, which we don't even manufacture but** 

### 6 **that would be $228 over ten years? We had 12** 

### 7 **years life expectancy. This doesn't make** 

### 8 **sense.** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right, so this is --** 

### 10 **these are expressed in a single panel, single** 

### 11 **door basis. But when we do the --** 

### 12 **MR. CRAIG: A single panel?** 

### 13 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, so that is what** 

### 14 **the table refers to a single panel.** 

### 15 **MR. CRAIG: You are saving $8 per** 

### 16 **panel or per square foot or per what?** 

### 17 **MR. WILKINS: Again, I think you are** 

### 18 **missing the point here.** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: It's per panel.** 

### 20 **MR. WILKINS: Look at the savings in** 

### 21 **the refrigeration system. It is not because** 

### 22 **the refrigeration system is so much better,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 266**  **1 it is because the box is so much better that**  

### 2 **it enables you to downsize the refrigeration** 

### 3 **system. Isn't that true?** 

### 4 **MR. CRAIG: But if the box were that** 

### 5 **much better, you would save a lot more than** 

### 6 **$8 over a life period of time.** 

### 7 **MR. WILKINS: Well, then clarify it** 

### 8 **for us, what this is, if that is not what it** 

### 9 **is.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So that** 

### 11 **exchange, just for the record, Ellis and** 

### 12 **Robert back and forth. Now, to Charlie.** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie. Here is** 

### 14 **what I think I understand. The unit of** 

### 15 **measure in the lower table is a panel, not a** 

### 16 **walk-in.** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. STEPHENS: So, there is no** 

### 19 **assumed square footage of a walk-in here.** 

### 20 **MS. COUGHLIN: No.** 

### 21 **MR. STEPHENS: So we would have to** 

### 22 **multiply that number times however many**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 267**  **1 panels there are in a typical walk-in before**  

### 2 **you could get a number that would apply to** 

### 3 **what you think you are selling as a product.** 

### 4 **MS. COUGHLIN: That's right.** 

### 5 **MR. LUKE CRAIG: Well, average say a** 

### 6 **six by six or eight by eight, say 20 panels -** 

### 7 **-** 

### 8 **MR. ELLIS CRAIG: No, it is not** 

### 9 **that. It's about ten panels.** 

### 10 **MR. LUKE CRAIG: All right, so you** 

### 11 **have saved $80 over 12 years.** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: How many panels did** 

### 13 **you say?** 

### 14 **MR. CRAIG: There is about ten** 

### 15 **panels.** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay, I don't know if** 

### 17 **that is the same sized panel that is being** 

### 18 **analyzed here.** 

### 19 **MR. CRAIG: Well, one was M and one** 

### 20 **is a large. The medium is like a two-foot.** 

### 21 **I think it is two by eight.** 

### 22 **MS. COUGHLIN: Those are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 268**  **1 temperatures.**  

### 2 **MR. STEPHENS: Those are** 

### 3 **temperature, medium and low temperature. And** 

### 4 **I think the panel might be a four by eight or** 

### 5 **something like that.** 

### 6 **MR. CRAIG: The average size panel** 

### 7 **is four by eight. But even then, like a six** 

### 8 **by six or an eight by eight, it is like 10 to** 

### 9 **12 panels.** 

### 10 **MR. STEPHENS: So like 16. A couple** 

### 11 **of hundred is kind of the number I am getting** 

### 12 **but that is neither here nor there.** 

### 13 **MR. CRAIG: If it was $200, that is** 

### 14 **--** 

### 15 **MR. STEPHENS: But again, the** 

### 16 **savings you are getting from the lower table** 

### 17 **do not include any downsizing, for instance,** 

### 18 **of the refrigeration system for the increased** 

### 19 **efficiency.** 

### 20 **So, this is kind of like a minimum** 

### 21 **savings.** 

### 22 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 269**  **1 MR. STEPHENS: That is how I kind of**  

### 2 **read this. That if you are really good with** 

### 3 **the refrigeration, you actually might save a** 

### 4 **lot more. In fact, you might save enough on** 

### 5 **the refrigeration system to pay for the** 

### 6 **upgrade in the panel based on the panels that** 

### 7 **I am seeing here.** 

### 8 **MR. CRAIG: So what I am** 

### 9 **understanding is I go to my customer and I** 

### 10 **say I am going to save you $200 over 12** 

### 11 **years, if you spend another $500 or $600 for** 

### 12 **this walk-in.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's go to** 

### 14 **David. You are next.** 

### 15 **MR. GRIFE: I'm sorry, I have to** 

### 16 **support Ellis on this. We are manufacturers.** 

### 17 **We are the ones who live it every day and he** 

### 18 **is right on target. They don't even** 

### 19 **understand that. I don't understand it. I** 

### 20 **don't know how to go to the board and say** 

### 21 **let's invest a half a million or a million** 

### 22 **dollars on this. You know, this is not a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 270**  **1 good return on investment. Anybody here who**  

### 2 **is a businessman, this is not a good return** 

### 3 **on investment for panels. And we shouldn't** 

### 4 **be backing into this. We should look at this** 

### 5 **and say we need to do something different** 

### 6 **here in the Department of Energy to make sure** 

### 7 **that this is a good business model that we** 

### 8 **should do.** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: This is from the** 

### 10 **purchaser perspective. So this has got** 

### 11 **nothing to do with the manufacturer** 

### 12 **investment.** 

### 13 **MR. GRIFE: Where do you think the** 

### 14 **purchaser starts from? The manufacturer.** 

### 15 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, but again, this** 

### 16 **simply represents the return to the consumer,** 

### 17 **assuming -- when a standard is passed, you** 

### 18 **don't have to tell anybody anything. Right?** 

### 19 **MR. GRIFE: I'm sorry but it sounds** 

### 20 **like you are trying to rationalize the** 

### 21 **questions we are saying to a political** 

### 22 **answer. I mean, I'm just a businessman**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 271**  **1 trying to take care of customers day in and**  

### 2 **day out, as I know many of these gentlemen** 

### 3 **are.** 

### 4 **We are trying to justify it to them** 

### 5 **because they are going to come back to us and** 

### 6 **say, ‘‘What are you doing?’’ And we don't want** 

### 7 **to have every answer be, ‘‘Well, this is the** 

### 8 **government.’’ We are trying to understand** 

### 9 **this. We are trying to see how it makes good** 

### 10 **sense. And if anything, you are hearing some** 

### 11 **feedback from us that we are very concerned** 

### 12 **about these large expenses that we don't see** 

### 13 **the benefit. We want to get behind it. We** 

### 14 **believe in it but we just don't see the** 

### 15 **benefits.** 

### 16 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So, I think** 

### 17 **in terms of the Department's procedure,** 

### 18 **again, there are certain analyses that are** 

### 19 **done routinely for the Department to evaluate** 

### 20 **the effectiveness of the standard.** 

### 21 **So, this particular analysis is** 

### 22 **looking at the consumer and isolating the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 272**  **1 equipment and saying for each piece of**  

### 2 **equipment that you are buying, this is the** 

### 3 **potential payback. Now, there is another** 

### 4 **part of the analysis that looks at the** 

### 5 **national level, sort of all consumers, all** 

### 6 **panels, that sort of thing, which is more** 

### 7 **indicative to the Department of the overall** 

### 8 **benefit of the standard.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon and** 

### 10 **then to Charlie.** 

### 11 **MR. LEWIS: Yes, back in what about** 

### 12 **2007 when California said we are going to** 

### 13 **have five-inch freezer panels and then** 

### 14 **rescinded it fairly quickly as the 2009** 

### 15 **standards came out. But we had customers in** 

### 16 **California and I could not show them an** 

### 17 **energy savings that would justify going to** 

### 18 **five-inch panels, based on the heat of** 

### 19 **transmission. That is maybe 30 percent of** 

### 20 **the heat load of the walk-in. It is not 100** 

### 21 **percent. So rather than just going to the** 

### 22 **five-inch, you have only got a very small**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 273**  **1 area where you would go down from a one and a**  

### 2 **half load to a one or a two and a half to a** 

### 3 **two. It almost doesn't happen.** 

### 4 **And the payback in there in the last** 

### 5 **seven or six years, I have not been able to** 

### 6 **show one customer that they should be five** 

### 7 **inch panels.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie.** 

### 9 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 10 **Can you tell me what kind of an analysis you** 

### 11 **do to show them that?** 

### 12 **MR. LEWIS: Yes, I look at the heat** 

### 13 **load on the walk-in improvement with five** 

### 14 **inch panels and what that does to the** 

### 15 **refrigeration runtime and their initial cost** 

### 16 **and there is no payback.** 

### 17 **MR. STEPHENS: But what kind of an** 

### 18 **analysis -- oh, payback? So, you are using** 

### 19 **this payback period?** 

### 20 **MR. LEWIS: Looking at a payback** 

### 21 **period for the increased cost of the** 

### 22 **equipment, less the energy you are going to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 274**  **1 save and what that period is, it is eight or**  

### 2 **nine years.** 

### 3 **MR. STEPHENS: I think you are** 

### 4 **probably doing the wrong kind of analysis to** 

### 5 **sell that. I mean if you would like to sell** 

### 6 **it, you could actually sell them.** 

### 7 **I just did an analysis just last** 

### 8 **week on a bunch of energy measures that are** 

### 9 **only half as good as this, in other words,** 

### 10 **the paybacks are about twice as long, eight** 

### 11 **to ten years. You really need to do a** 

### 12 **monthly cash flow analysis. And I think if** 

### 13 **you did a monthly cash flow analysis on all** 

### 14 **of this, your customers would be cash flow** 

### 15 **positive in month one.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So I think,** 

### 17 **though, in the foregoing discussion, we have** 

### 18 **laid out this table, both of these tables. I** 

### 19 **will take final questions and comments here** 

### 20 **before we move on.** 

### 21 **Ellis.** 

### 22 **MR. CRAIG: Again, I want to state**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 275**  **1 that if we are doing this solely for the**  

### 2 **purpose of saving CO2, I understand the DOE** 

### 3 **coming up with this. But as far as us going** 

### 4 **to marketplace and justifying this great idea** 

### 5 **we have, it just won't fly because the** 

### 6 **numbers aren't here to do it.** 

### 7 **The other thing is, this doesn't** 

### 8 **take into consideration the impact it has on** 

### 9 **us. I know they do on another area but not** 

### 10 **here. And I am looking up here and say okay,** 

### 11 **I am going to make you spend more money on** 

### 12 **your walk-in and you are going to not get** 

### 13 **much payback on it. Actually, I don't even** 

### 14 **know if they will because the walk-in is** 

### 15 **going to cost a lot more than some of these** 

### 16 **paybacks are going to be.** 

### 17 **I don't understand how we can do** 

### 18 **that and hurt all these small businesses like** 

### 19 **we are going to be doing. There is no** 

### 20 **justification in this. I don't get it.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank.** 

### 22 **MR. MINELLI: Yes, I just want to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 276**  **1 agree with Ellis and what a couple of the**  

### 2 **others said. And what I said earlier about** 

### 3 **the big box clubs and supermarkets, the doors** 

### 4 **wouldn't last anywhere near the payback** 

### 5 **period.** 

### 6 **So, asking them to invest the** 

### 7 **additional money and us to invest additional** 

### 8 **money for a negative payback is ridiculous.** 

### 9 **I just don't think it is a necessary move.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Harmon?** 

### 11 **MR. LEWIS: Since we are talking** 

### 12 **about this as a panel basis, what square** 

### 13 **footage panel were all these costs based on?** 

### 14 **MS. COUGHLIN: For this table, I'm** 

### 15 **not sure what the average size is.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We can dig** 

### 17 **that out.** 

### 18 **We have been at this for an hour and** 

### 19 **a half. I am going to suggest we take a** 

### 20 **break for just ten minutes. Ten minutes.** 

### 21 **You know where the restrooms are.** 

### 22 **If you are going to get a Coke, dash down to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 277**  **1 the ground floor, turn the corner and you can**  

### 2 **get a Coke there.** 

### 3 **That means we are going to resume at** 

### 4 **2:45, about, 2:46.** 

### 5 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 6 **matter went off the record at 2:35 p.m. and** 

### 7 **resumed at 2:46 p.m.)** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, let's** 

### 9 **resume. I guess right here at the outset,** 

### 10 **Joanna, you have a question.** 

### 11 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I just** 

### 12 **wanted to ask a question related to how the** 

### 13 **TSLs were developed. So, I am looking at** 

### 14 **Table 10D.2.6, which shows the design options** 

### 15 **associated with each TSL for display doors.** 

### 16 **And so as we noted this morning, it** 

### 17 **looks like lighting sensors, film layers,** 

### 18 **soft low-e coating, krypton fill all appear** 

### 19 **at the max tech TSL, TSL 6, and don't appear** 

### 20 **at any of the lower TSLs. Could you explain** 

### 21 **why that is?** 

### 22 **MS. COUGHLIN: I'm going to pass**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 278**  **1 that to the engineering.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Did you get** 

### 3 **the question?** 

### 4 **MS. LEGETT: So in general, I think** 

### 5 **Katie touched on this a little bit, the TSLs** 

### 6 **are combinations of analysis that satisfy** 

### 7 **certain criteria. And the reason is they** 

### 8 **were chosen is because they satisfied those** 

### 9 **max tech criteria but none of the others.** 

### 10 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. So, does** 

### 11 **that suggest that things like lighting** 

### 12 **sensors weren't found to be a cost-effective** 

### 13 **measure?** 

### 14 **MS. LEGETT: By and large, yes, for** 

### 15 **that equipment class.** 

### 16 **MS. MAUER: Okay.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, we are** 

### 18 **moving on now to shipments and back to Katie.** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, so I will just** 

### 20 **answer one question that was raised. The** 

### 21 **panel here is about eight by four.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. We**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 279**  **1 have got several sidebar conversations going**  

### 2 **on. If we could hold off on those. Jon, you** 

### 3 **want to say something before we get going?** 

### 4 **MR. McHUGH: Yes, I just want to --** 

### 5 **hopefully this is a clarifying question or at** 

### 6 **least how I understand the table that you are** 

### 7 **showing there as it relates to panels.** 

### 8 **So, just looking at your top row** 

### 9 **there, you have got a 32-square foot panel.** 

### 10 **The estimation is that this is saving $8 per** 

### 11 **panel over -- and this is a discounted value,** 

### 12 **right?** 

### 13 **MS. COUGHLIN: That's right.** 

### 14 **MR. McHUGH: So, this is something** 

### 15 **like a five percent discount rate or** 

### 16 **something like that over this is 12 years.** 

### 17 **Is that right?** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: Fourteen, I think.** 

### 19 **MR. McHUGH: Or 14 years, okay.** 

### 20 **So, in terms of the total dollar,** 

### 21 **this is essentially ten times or so the** 

### 22 **annual savings. And that since it has a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 280**  **1 simple payback of five years, this implies**  

### 2 **that for that panel to get to TSL 4, we are** 

### 3 **looking at a $40 cost increment or a little** 

### 4 **bit over a dollar per square foot for the** 

### 5 **panels.** 

### 6 **Am I kind of understanding the** 

### 7 **overall concept of what this row would mean?** 

### 8 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 9 **MR. McHUGH: I'm just trying to put** 

### 10 **it in the common for people who manufacture** 

### 11 **these things, so that they can have a gut** 

### 12 **check in terms of does this actually make** 

### 13 **sense. Does it cost about a dollar per** 

### 14 **square foot to make that change? And that my** 

### 15 **expectation is when I go to my customers that** 

### 16 **I am really talking about something that has** 

### 17 **a five-year simple payback.** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: That's right.** 

### 19 **MR. McHUGH: Okay, so all those** 

### 20 **things are correct.** 

### 21 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right.** 

### 22 **MR. McHUGH: Now, does that jibe**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 281**  **1 with you guys that what the TSL is is about**  

### 2 **$1.25 per square foot cost increment?** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis.** 

### 4 **MR. CRAIG: I mean you are talking** 

### 5 **about $1.25. I don't agree that that is what** 

### 6 **we will have to increase our price to sell** 

### 7 **this walk-in, if we got to something that is** 

### 8 **a five-inch walk-in. I think it will be a** 

### 9 **lot more than that because there is a lot of** 

### 10 **changes that go on that I don't know if DOE** 

### 11 **is taking into consideration but as a** 

### 12 **manufacturer, I know there is a lot of costs.** 

### 13 **There is more fixtures. You have got to** 

### 14 **expand the size of your plant. You have** 

### 15 **slowed down production. You have done a lot** 

### 16 **of things, not even counting capital** 

### 17 **investment. Not even counting shipping** 

### 18 **costs, which are going to be a big issue in** 

### 19 **this whole thing. So, it is going to be a** 

### 20 **lot more than $1.25 to implement this to that** 

### 21 **customer.** 

### 22 **So, I guarantee you that the cost of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 282**  **1 that customer will be more than he is saving**  

### 2 **up there on small walk-ins.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon.** 

### 4 **MR. LEWIS: Yes, I am going to tell** 

### 5 **you this and I am probably going to kill half** 

### 6 **the room but I different supports to five** 

### 7 **inches approach and 25 percent and that is** 

### 8 **without having to rationalize capital** 

### 9 **expenditure for another million dollars'** 

### 10 **worth of fixtures when I lose a third of my** 

### 11 **capacity.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 13 **you.** 

### 14 **MR. LEWIS: Now, the net cost** 

### 15 **percentage that is 34, what number by divided** 

### 16 **what number is 34?** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: That is the** 

### 18 **percentage of consumers. So, the Monte Carlo** 

### 19 **simulation does a 10,000 sample of consumers** 

### 20 **and 34 percent of them will see a net cost** 

### 21 **associated with the standard, which means the** 

### 22 **increase in total installed costs is slightly**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 283**  **1 higher than the decrease in operating costs.**  

### 2 **MR. LEWIS: So the net cost** 

### 3 **percentage and the net benefit percentage add** 

### 4 **100.** 

### 5 **MS. COUGHLIN: That's right. So,** 

### 6 **this doesn't tell you the magnitude of the** 

### 7 **net cost or the net benefit. It just tells** 

### 8 **you the number of people that had a net cost** 

### 9 **or net benefit.** 

### 10 **And again, there is more detailed** 

### 11 **information in the TSD about --** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I think we** 

### 13 **have discussed this enough so that all of you** 

### 14 **can make detailed comment on this. And that** 

### 15 **is what the Department would like to see.** 

### 16 **They would like you to really give them your** 

### 17 **best thinking on how this impacts you, your** 

### 18 **company, your group and how that would all** 

### 19 **shake out for all the parties in this.** 

### 20 **So, let's move on now.** 

### 21 **MR. LEWIS: May I ask one last** 

### 22 **question?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 284**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: One last**  

### 2 **question.** 

### 3 **MR. LEWIS: One last question. Ms.** 

### 4 **Rebecca?** 

### 5 **MS. LEGETT: Yes?** 

### 6 **MR. LEWIS: On these, we have got** 

### 7 **four-inch or three and a half-inch thick** 

### 8 **cooler panels. We are going to have five** 

### 9 **inch freezer panels. We build a lot of walk** 

### 10 **ins that are coolers and freezers or mini** 

### 11 **coolers and freezers all in one big room.** 

### 12 **Did you take into account how do you match** 

### 13 **five-inch rooms with four-inch rooms and** 

### 14 **four-inch walls with five-inch walls?** 

### 15 **Because we charge a mint to do that. We have** 

### 16 **to. That starts to become rocket science.** 

### 17 **MS. LEGETT: So, short answer, no,** 

### 18 **because this is at the component level. It** 

### 19 **is only looking at one individual panel. Is** 

### 20 **there any way you can characterize that cost** 

### 21 **for us so we can account for it?** 

### 22 **MR. LEWIS: You have to bring it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 285**  **1 back to square feet.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, that's** 

### 3 **helpful.** 

### 4 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, that would go** 

### 5 **into the installation cost segment, I think,** 

### 6 **of the LCC. So, if you can provide** 

### 7 **information on that, we can incorporate it.** 

### 8 **MR. LEWIS: It is manufacturing** 

### 9 **cost. It is not installation.** 

### 10 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So now, we** 

### 12 **are moving on to shipments.** 

### 13 **MS. COUGHLIN: So the shipments** 

### 14 **analysis now moves away from the individual** 

### 15 **consumer and to the national level impacts** 

### 16 **associated with all the equipment that is** 

### 17 **shipped over the analysis period. So, the** 

### 18 **chevrons here show that the shipments** 

### 19 **analysis and life-cycle cost results are used** 

### 20 **to construct the national impact analysis.** 

### 21 **So, let me first go through the shipments.** 

### 22 **So the shipments model, shipments**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 286**  **1 refers to units that are produced in each**  

### 2 **year and sold. So, it incorporates both** 

### 3 **replacements for existing installations and** 

### 4 **new installations.** 

### 5 **In this analysis, because again of** 

### 6 **the separation of components from** 

### 7 **refrigeration systems, there is separate** 

### 8 **shipments models for each type of equipment.** 

### 9 **However, we do build on the model that was** 

### 10 **for completed walk-ins that was constructed** 

### 11 **in the preliminary analysis.** 

### 12 **So, DOE projects future shipments** 

### 13 **based on two things. You can begin your** 

### 14 **analysis in any given analysis year if you** 

### 15 **know the standing stock of the equipment, how** 

### 16 **many units, where they are, and how old they** 

### 17 **are. And you have a lifetime for the units** 

### 18 **so you know how quickly they will be** 

### 19 **replaced. And the other piece of information** 

### 20 **that you need is new floor space to account** 

### 21 **for new installations.** 

### 22 **So the data sources that DOE uses**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 287**  **1 are the Commercial Buildings Energy**  

### 2 **Consumption Survey, which gives a breakdown** 

### 3 **for different business types of a sort of** 

### 4 **saturation rate for walk-ins, how many units** 

### 5 **are in each type of business and by region** 

### 6 **and by age, that sort of thing.** 

### 7 **The Economic Census provides** 

### 8 **additional data on shipments of various types** 

### 9 **of equipment. And then manufacturer** 

### 10 **interviews were also used to develop** 

### 11 **information about how many units are shipped,** 

### 12 **how the breakdown according to equipment** 

### 13 **class and capacity.** 

### 14 **So, the model has the sort of,** 

### 15 **again, it is a hierarchical model. It first** 

### 16 **predicts how many walk-in units are going to** 

### 17 **be installed, just based on the commercial** 

### 18 **building activity. And then it takes that** 

### 19 **installation of completed walk-ins and breaks** 

### 20 **down the refrigeration systems associated** 

### 21 **with it and the different envelope** 

### 22 **components.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 288**  **1 So, there are a number of**  

### 2 **assumptions. And again, they are detailed in** 

### 3 **the notice and any comments on those inputs** 

### 4 **and assumptions would be appreciated.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon.** 

### 6 **MR. LEWIS: Yes. How many walk-in** 

### 7 **coolers and freezers did that say are shipped** 

### 8 **each year?** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: I think it is on the** 

### 10 **order of a few tens of thousands. Is that** 

### 11 **table in here? I'm not sure.** 

### 12 **Yes, I think there is a table in the** 

### 13 **TSD that actually has units.** 

### 14 **MR. LEWIS: Okay.** 

### 15 **MS. COUGHLIN: So, yes.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So we will** 

### 17 **look for that.** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: So, I am going to** 

### 19 **show you a number of tables which will give** 

### 20 **you something more specific to comment on.** 

### 21 **So, we will start with the equipment class.** 

### 22 **So essentially, in building the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 289**  **1 shipments model, so we start -- again, we are**  

### 2 **looking at an analysis period that begins in** 

### 3 **2017 and continues out several decades. So,** 

### 4 **we use these annual energy outlook** 

### 5 **projections of commercial floor space to give** 

### 6 **us our basic picture of how that is going to** 

### 7 **evolve over time.** 

### 8 **So, those commercial floor space** 

### 9 **projections are organized according to** 

### 10 **activity, building activity. So, food sales,** 

### 11 **food service, that sort of thing.** 

### 12 **So, the first task is to take the** 

### 13 **product classes that are defined for the** 

### 14 **analysis, map them to sort of more common** 

### 15 **sense application types and then we map those** 

### 16 **into the different building types.** 

### 17 **So, the application types that DOE** 

### 18 **used essentially take the equipment classes,** 

### 19 **which are either coolers or freezers, and** 

### 20 **storage or display, and then break them into** 

### 21 **three sizes to account for the different** 

### 22 **sizes of the buildings that they are going**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 290**  **1 into.**  

### 2 **So, you end up with 12 application** 

### 3 **size categories and across the actual -- so** 

### 4 **for the refrigeration systems, these are the** 

### 5 **distributions that DOE arrived at for which** 

### 6 **types of refrigeration systems are used in** 

### 7 **which types of applications.** 

### 8 **So again, there is a lot of** 

### 9 **information here that I don't want to get** 

### 10 **into the detail at this point. But if there** 

### 11 **are comments on the overall picture here, for** 

### 12 **example, there are some numbers that are very** 

### 13 **large and a lot that are small. If those** 

### 14 **large numbers look incorrect, then DOE would** 

### 15 **appreciate comment on that.** 

### 16 **So, for the market shares by size** 

### 17 **for the envelope components, again, DOE used** 

### 18 **various estimates of the unit sizes for** 

### 19 **different business types and then the number** 

### 20 **of business types based on what is in CBECS** 

### 21 **and then made some essential informed guesses** 

### 22 **about what that means for size distribution**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 291**  **1 of panels and doors.**  

### 2 **So, the size distributions are** 

### 3 **broken down for three categories for each** 

### 4 **envelope component and these are DOE** 

### 5 **estimates of the percentage of sales that** 

### 6 **fall into those different sized categories.** 

### 7 **And then in the analysis, when we** 

### 8 **talk about a panel or a large panel, these** 

### 9 **are the representative sizes that are used to** 

### 10 **specify what is meant by large in the** 

### 11 **analysis.** 

### 12 **And again, these are expected to be** 

### 13 **population averages.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon.** 

### 15 **MR. LEWIS: Yes, I am not aware of** 

### 16 **anybody that makes a five and a half-foot** 

### 17 **wide panel in our industry. Am I mistaken?** 

### 18 **You are based on metal coil width and metal** 

### 19 **handling equipment. Because I mean they make** 

### 20 **door frames that are that big but standard** 

### 21 **panels --** 

### 22 **MR. CRAIG: The walk-in that we make**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 292**  **1 is a five/ten by five/ten.**  

### 2 **MR. LEWIS: No, no, not the size but** 

### 3 **the size of the panel.** 

### 4 **MR. CRAIG: Oh, panel, okay.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis.** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right, again, this is** 

### 7 **sort of like the 2.1 average children per** 

### 8 **family. So this is a population average.** 

### 9 **MR. LEWIS: But if you don't have** 

### 10 **anybody in the population that is five and a** 

### 11 **half feet wide, you can't have 20 percent of** 

### 12 **them, if nobody builds that.** 

### 13 **MS. COUGHLIN: So you don't have --** 

### 14 **do you have five and six or are you saying** 

### 15 **you have nothing in that range?** 

### 16 **MR. LEWIS: Nobody, that I am aware** 

### 17 **of, builds wider than four feet based on** 

### 18 **material handling and coil widths that are** 

### 19 **commercially available at a reasonable price.** 

### 20 **So that four-foot metal restricts your panel** 

### 21 **to under four feet.** 

### 22 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 293**  **1 MR. LEWIS: So that is, I think,**  

### 2 **totally wrong.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis.** 

### 4 **MR. CRAIG: I agree, Harmon. The** 

### 5 **other thing I wanted to say, looking at this** 

### 6 **five and a half feet, are you sure this isn't** 

### 7 **including warehouse type products?** 

### 8 **When you got these numbers, we are** 

### 9 **only limited to 3,000 or less. So, did** 

### 10 **anybody say okay, we only want to look at** 

### 11 **walk-ins that are 3,000 and less?** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 13 **MR. CRAIG: Because the only ones I** 

### 14 **know that could possibly do that would be** 

### 15 **people who are making large panels for** 

### 16 **commercial walk-in application that are** 

### 17 **supply-oriented. So, that wouldn't even be** 

### 18 **in our market. That has nothing to do with** 

### 19 **our product. All of ours are four-foot. I** 

### 20 **don't know a manufacturer here that ever does** 

### 21 **it any different.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 294**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. LEWIS: It would make it a lot** 

### 3 **longer, too.** 

### 4 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 6 **additional comments on this Table 58?** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, so again the** 

### 8 **output of the shipments model is the total** 

### 9 **shipments of units which comprises the sum of** 

### 10 **new installations and replacements. So,** 

### 11 **these are just graphs showing over the** 

### 12 **analysis period. It actually starts in 2017.** 

### 13 **And this is broken down -- this is the** 

### 14 **refrigeration systems shipments broken down** 

### 15 **by broad product class. So, these wiggles in** 

### 16 **out years are essentially being driven by the** 

### 17 **shape of the AEO commercial floor space** 

### 18 **construction forecast. And we have similar** 

### 19 **plots for refrigeration components. These** 

### 20 **are actually, the graph is mislabeled. These** 

### 21 **are display doors and panels.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Which one is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 295**  **1 mislabeled?**  

### 2 **MS. COUGHLIN: This WICF** 

### 3 **refrigeration component shipments by year.** 

### 4 **This is really envelope components by year.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: So, the legend is** 

### 7 **correct.** 

### 8 **MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. You have** 

### 9 **got number of units. What is a unit?** 

### 10 **MS. COUGHLIN: The number of units** 

### 11 **is the number of panels of the different** 

### 12 **representative sizes from the previous table.** 

### 13 **MR. CRAIG: Okay, all right.** 

### 14 **MS. COUGHLIN: So again, it is not -** 

### 15 **-** 

### 16 **MR. CRAIG: Units. It is really** 

### 17 **panels.** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. I believe this** 

### 19 **is really done -- yes, it is panels, virtual** 

### 20 **panels, I believe.** 

### 21 **Okay, but there is panels in here so** 

### 22 **-- this is only doors. I'm sorry, this is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 296**  **1 just doors.**  

### 2 **MR. CRAIG: Now wait a minute. The** 

### 3 **blue line is medium. Isn't that panels?** 

### 4 **Display doors.** 

### 5 **MS. COUGHLIN: It is display doors.** 

### 6 **MR. CRAIG: Okay, PO is what?** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: Passage door.** 

### 8 **MR. CRAIG: So none of those are** 

### 9 **walk-in panels?** 

### 10 **MS. COUGHLIN: Passage doors, yes,** 

### 11 **these are all doors, display doors, passage** 

### 12 **doors, and freight doors.** 

### 13 **MR. CRAIG: Okay.** 

### 14 **MS. COUGHLIN: Oh, we don't have a** 

### 15 **picture of the panels.** 

### 16 **MR. CRAIG: I was going to say, we** 

### 17 **don't see that.** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: They will tell you** 

### 19 **what page. It will be in the TSD. Sorry it** 

### 20 **didn't get into the presentation.** 

### 21 **But it is going to look the same. I** 

### 22 **mean, they all look the same because they are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 297**  **1 all being driven by the unit, the assembled**  

### 2 **unit forecast. The only thing that is going** 

### 3 **to change is what is on this axis, the** 

### 4 **vertical axis.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Cue the** 

### 6 **comment box.** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: Pardon me?** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: The comment** 

### 9 **box.** 

### 10 **MR. SENTER: Guy Senter here.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, please.** 

### 12 **MR. SENTER: It just hit me, I have** 

### 13 **never opened the door on the reach-in** 

### 14 **freezer. The walk-in freezer, yes, but the** 

### 15 **reach-in freezer with the glass door. I have** 

### 16 **just never seen one. Is that out in** 

### 17 **California?** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, that is out in** 

### 19 **California.** 

### 20 **MR. SENTER: Okay, I have just never** 

### 21 **--** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 298**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: So, DOE would welcome**  

### 2 **input. People have discussed a little bit** 

### 3 **the fact that the cost increases associated** 

### 4 **with an amended standard could lead to** 

### 5 **impacts on shipments to customers. So, DOE** 

### 6 **would welcome any input that people would** 

### 7 **like to provide on what you think the** 

### 8 **magnitude of that impact would be and whether** 

### 9 **particular sectors might be affected more** 

### 10 **than others.** 

### 11 **And also, the analytical time period** 

### 12 **is 30 years. This, again, is a convention** 

### 13 **that is used in most DOE analyses. If for** 

### 14 **any reason that seems inappropriate, we can** 

### 15 **all please comment on that as well.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 17 **MR. LEMMOND: Is there any estimate** 

### 18 **on the uncertainty and increasing uncertainty** 

### 19 **in these numbers, as the years go out? I** 

### 20 **mean the Monte Carlo analysis type of** 

### 21 **analysis.** 

### 22 **MS. COUGHLIN: Let's see. Well,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 299**  **1 since again these numbers are largely driven**  

### 2 **by what comes out of AEO and AEO does attempt** 

### 3 **to do an evaluation of their projection** 

### 4 **accuracy.** 

### 5 **But for the -- let's see. To do a** 

### 6 **mathematically correct uncertainty analysis** 

### 7 **requires more data that DOE currently has.** 

### 8 **We do validate the model to the extent** 

### 9 **possible. So essentially, given the data on** 

### 10 **building floor space and saturations and** 

### 11 **lifetimes, you can predict what shipments** 

### 12 **should be, including for historical periods.** 

### 13 **So, DOE looks at historical shipments for** 

### 14 **consistency with the model.** 

### 15 **I wouldn't want to go as far as** 

### 16 **quoting an uncertainty number based on that,** 

### 17 **though. It would not be very useful.** 

### 18 **MR. LEMMOND: Just, you know, the** 

### 19 **numbers seem very certain, too certain for** 

### 20 **2045. And I don't know, when that projection** 

### 21 **goes out too far in the future, it sort of,** 

### 22 **to me personally, it doesn't really mean**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 300**  **1 anything because in 2045 it is, as you know,**  

### 2 **a lot could happen.** 

### 3 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right. But there is** 

### 4 **nothing significant for the rule happening** 

### 5 **there either. The energy savings and cost** 

### 6 **savings that are trickling in have been so** 

### 7 **heavily discounted that they are not really** 

### 8 **meaningful.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert, you** 

### 10 **are next.** 

### 11 **MR. WILKINS: Just a question first,** 

### 12 **to think about. What average and range of** 

### 13 **market price increases does this project?** 

### 14 **And what is your assumption on price** 

### 15 **elasticity and demand?** 

### 16 **MS. COUGHLIN: For the current** 

### 17 **version of the model, there is no price** 

### 18 **elasticity included. Are you asking about** 

### 19 **price trends over time and the manufacturer's** 

### 20 **selling price or --** 

### 21 **MR. WILKINS: How much for a typical** 

### 22 **walk-in will the average price rise, once**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 301**  **1 this standard is implemented, this amended**  

### 2 **standard is implemented?** 

### 3 **MS. COUGHLIN: Can you give us --** 

### 4 **can someone over there look up the average** 

### 5 **price increase? Again, this is a component** 

### 6 **based analysis. We don't have a price for an** 

### 7 **assembled unit.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: While they** 

### 9 **are looking, David.** 

### 10 **MR. GRIFE: David from Arctic** 

### 11 **Industries. The manufacturers here have many** 

### 12 **customers. But one unique thing about walk** 

### 13 **ins is no matter how many of your customers** 

### 14 **buy, they rarely buy 30, 40 at a time. This** 

### 15 **is a unique product. Our biggest customers** 

### 16 **still buy one at a time because each one of** 

### 17 **these products goes to a unique, specific** 

### 18 **location. Many years ago it used to be much** 

### 19 **more to the warehouse and you could buy four** 

### 20 **or five and then they would distribute out to** 

### 21 **the field. I don't know if anybody does much** 

### 22 **of that anymore. Therefore, shipping has**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 302**  **1 gone up significantly as part of our price.**  

### 2 **And since the energy of moving trucks across** 

### 3 **the country has gone way down -- I'm joking** 

### 4 **of course -- it has made that shipping even** 

### 5 **more. So now where we have a product that** 

### 6 **may fit on three or four pallets with changes** 

### 7 **or five- or six-inch, whatever, it may go to** 

### 8 **six pallets.** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. GRIFE: And that is going to be** 

### 11 **significant. Shipping is ranged anywhere** 

### 12 **from 8 to 12 percent above the cost of our** 

### 13 **product. So anything that increases that** 

### 14 **shipping makes it even harder on us, the end** 

### 15 **users, our dealers, distributors, and** 

### 16 **everybody else in this chain.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 18 **you.** 

### 19 **Yes, Ellis?** 

### 20 **MR. CRAIG: Most of us are used to** 

### 21 **shipping a lot of our products LTL, which is** 

### 22 **less than load. So, you ship, it goes on a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 303**  **1 truck and no problem. But the bigger you**  

### 2 **get, all of a sudden, they don't want you to** 

### 3 **take up the whole truck, an LTL truck with a** 

### 4 **walk-in, so they start penalizing you. So,** 

### 5 **therefore, going from a smaller sized walk-in** 

### 6 **-- efficiency is we go to a five-inch, now it** 

### 7 **takes up more space. And you have more space** 

### 8 **on the truck. There is a lot more penalties.** 

### 9 **So you either ship it by two trucks at two** 

### 10 **different times or you ship it and pay the** 

### 11 **penalties. So, that is going to drive up the** 

### 12 **cost.** 

### 13 **I wonder if that was taken into** 

### 14 **consideration.** 

### 15 **MR. CRAIG: It can go from like $700** 

### 16 **to $3,000.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wow.** 

### 18 **MR. CRAIG: Yes, that big a** 

### 19 **difference.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, David,** 

### 21 **go ahead.** 

### 22 **MR. GRIFE: Because trucks, we know**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 304**  **1 how wide they are. That is why you are**  

### 2 **talking about 48-inch pallets. The pallets** 

### 3 **we try to stay -- there are no 73-inch** 

### 4 **pallets that we can put in the truck. So, if** 

### 5 **they can't put two pallets side-by-side, we** 

### 6 **are going to get dinged. And he is right.** 

### 7 **It can go from $700 to $3,000. It is all** 

### 8 **over the board. And now all of a sudden your** 

### 9 **cost for freight went from ten to 27 percent** 

### 10 **of that product.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 12 **MR. GRIFE: So we are very conscious** 

### 13 **of that and I am sure we all have very good** 

### 14 **shipping people who pull their hair out each** 

### 15 **day as they try to make those deals to move** 

### 16 **product.** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from** 

### 18 **DOE. The answer is we did account for that.** 

### 19 **Shipping did vary with the increase, the** 

### 20 **differences and inflation as you moved up.** 

### 21 **So, you should look in the TSD in** 

### 22 **Chapter 5 and see if those shipping estimates**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 305**  **1 match up with what you are seeing and if not,**  

### 2 **give us some comments so that if we do a** 

### 3 **revision, we can consider that.** 

### 4 **MR. LEWIS: This is Harmon. Ashley,** 

### 5 **did you all do that as a linear just based on** 

### 6 **the weight difference or did you look at the** 

### 7 **fact it is totally disjointed once you get to** 

### 8 **a certain volume of the truck?** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It is volume and** 

### 10 **weight-based. So, but take a look and see if** 

### 11 **those cut-offs match up with what you guys** 

### 12 **are actually seeing in the field.** 

### 13 **MR. CRAIG: Yes, this is Ellis** 

### 14 **Craig. You are going to be way off if you do** 

### 15 **it by just volume and weight because that is** 

### 16 **the LTL problem. They call it a square foot** 

### 17 **rule and the trucking companies all have** 

### 18 **their own. But they have a square foot rule.** 

### 19 **If you take up more than so many cubic feet** 

### 20 **in that truck, you pay for the whole truck.** 

### 21 **And that is where it really gets you.** 

### 22 **So, it is not a matter of just one**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 306**  **1 more foot on that truck, you might have to**  

### 2 **pay the $3,000 versus the $700. So that is** 

### 3 **very, very important that you look at that** 

### 4 **correctly, not just a percentage of increase** 

### 5 **because of the size. It is going to make a** 

### 6 **huge difference in these numbers.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Did** 

### 8 **you find the number you were looking for?** 

### 9 **Still looking.** 

### 10 **MS. COUGHLIN: The percentage** 

### 11 **increase in price, let's just look at TSL 4.** 

### 12 **MR. CRAIG: Okay, refrigeration --** 

### 13 **we are talking about panels.** 

### 14 **MS. COUGHLIN: For panels.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Get a** 

### 16 **microphone.** 

### 17 **MR. LAU: For panels, go from** 

### 18 **baseline to TSL 4. We are looking at roughly** 

### 19 **a 12 percent increase in cost. I don't have** 

### 20 **refrigeration yet.** 

### 21 **MR. CRAIG: A 12 percent increase?** 

### 22 **MS. COUGHLIN: Uh-huh.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 307**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: He said**  

### 2 **panels, right?** 

### 3 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Great. So** 

### 5 **now, let's proceed with national impact** 

### 6 **analysis.** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: So the purpose of the** 

### 8 **national impact analysis is to look now at** 

### 9 **the level of the entire country. So the** 

### 10 **entire population of walk-in units and** 

### 11 **estimate the national energy savings and the** 

### 12 **NPV of the consumer economic impacts.** 

### 13 **So, essentially the shipments model** 

### 14 **gives you a picture of what the stock of** 

### 15 **units over time would be under different** 

### 16 **trial standard levels. So, to estimate the** 

### 17 **changes in energy consumption and the changes** 

### 18 **in costs, you just look at the differences** 

### 19 **between the characteristics of the stock, say** 

### 20 **at TSL 4 versus the stock at the baseline.** 

### 21 **So, for the national energy** 

### 22 **consumption analysis, we just take the stock**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 308**  **1 and calculate, again, within the limits**  

### 2 **imposed by the component-based approach, the** 

### 3 **energy use associated with the refrigeration** 

### 4 **systems and the panels. And then the** 

### 5 **expenditures are the expenditures that are** 

### 6 **considered within the LCC; so, the increase** 

### 7 **in purchase price and installation cost and** 

### 8 **any decreases in energy costs and any changes** 

### 9 **in maintenance and repair cost.** 

### 10 **There is a difference from the LCC,** 

### 11 **in that the national analysis uses two** 

### 12 **discount rates for all consumers, three** 

### 13 **percent and seven percent. And these are** 

### 14 **mandated by the rules that govern this** 

### 15 **process.** 

### 16 **And again, the base case that we are** 

### 17 **considering here is a distribution of** 

### 18 **efficiencies in the market that includes some** 

### 19 **fraction of consumers who are buying** 

### 20 **equipment that is above the engineering** 

### 21 **baseline.** 

### 22 **So, there is a price trend. So,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 309**  **1 essentially the equipment price increase is**  

### 2 **projected into the future. And given** 

### 3 **historical evidence of sort of overall slow** 

### 4 **declines in prices of manufactured goods, DOE** 

### 5 **may find that it makes sense to put a price** 

### 6 **trend on the equipment prices in the national** 

### 7 **impacts analysis.** 

### 8 **So, to determine whether there is an** 

### 9 **overall long-term price trend, we use the** 

### 10 **producer price index series for** 

### 11 **refrigeration, air conditioning, and heating** 

### 12 **equipment, which is a pretty broad category.** 

### 13 **And this is essentially smoothed, just is** 

### 14 **really just to present a picture of the** 

### 15 **scale.** 

### 16 **So, the constant price trend is the** 

### 17 **blue line. So, it is scaled to one. And** 

### 18 **then there is a slight decrease over very** 

### 19 **long periods of time evident in the data,** 

### 20 **which amounts to something like a half a** 

### 21 **percent a year decrease in the cost of** 

### 22 **equipment.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 310**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis.**  

### 2 **MR. CRAIG: Historically, we have** 

### 3 **been in business since '86 and we have never** 

### 4 **seen any product in our industry go down.** 

### 5 **Have we guys?** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, well that would** 

### 7 **be -- because again, the data series here** 

### 8 **combines a number of different types of** 

### 9 **equipment.** 

### 10 **MR. CRAIG: Is this suggested** 

### 11 **according to inflation?** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, this is real** 

### 13 **dollar price to clients.** 

### 14 **MR. CRAIG: So there isn't any** 

### 15 **inflation you are showing it going down.** 

### 16 **MS. COUGHLIN: That's right. But** 

### 17 **again, this is a PPI series, so they have** 

### 18 **done these adjustments but it is much broader** 

### 19 **than the category of equipment that is** 

### 20 **covered by this rulemaking.** 

### 21 **So, it is very possible that for** 

### 22 **this rulemaking, this number is not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 311**  **1 appropriate.**  

### 2 **MR. CRAIG: Yes, I would say it is** 

### 3 **probably not appropriate in effect that we** 

### 4 **are a metal industry, whether it be** 

### 5 **refrigeration or us. Those haven't been** 

### 6 **going on a pretty well straight line basis.** 

### 7 **Those have more than increased because it is** 

### 8 **a supply and demand. There is less supply.** 

### 9 **There is more demand. Therefore, the prices** 

### 10 **are going up faster than inflation. So, I** 

### 11 **would disagree with that chart.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And so in** 

### 13 **your written comments, if you can provide the** 

### 14 **details, Ellis.** 

### 15 **MR. CRAIG: Yes, we can kind of** 

### 16 **project out from when -- at least in our --** 

### 17 **you guys could probably do the same thing.** 

### 18 **What you were paying, what you are paying now** 

### 19 **versus how much it went up over and above** 

### 20 **inflation.** 

### 21 **MR. LEWIS: Right. You've also got** 

### 22 **your thing, chemicals, or oil base. So all of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 312**  **1 that you can figure three, four, five percent**  

### 2 **annual increase over the last 20 years, last** 

### 3 **30 years.** 

### 4 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, so this is only** 

### 5 **applied to the incremental cost. It is not** 

### 6 **applied to the baseline cost.** 

### 7 **So, it has a small impact** 

### 8 **quantitatively on the results you are going** 

### 9 **to see. So it is a small trend applied to a** 

### 10 **small incremental cost.** 

### 11 **MR. LEWIS: But the percentage if I** 

### 12 **go from putting four inches of urethane in** 

### 13 **the panel to five inches, the urethane amount** 

### 14 **there is the same percentage cost increase** 

### 15 **that was. So if I got a four percent** 

### 16 **increase in the price per pound on urethane,** 

### 17 **the incremental is the same four percent** 

### 18 **increase. So, it is not going to go down.** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And moving** 

### 21 **along.** 

### 22 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, I have one**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 313**  **1 more.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Oh yes, Jon.** 

### 3 **MR. McHUGH: So what I think I am** 

### 4 **hearing is that your recommendation is that** 

### 5 **we should be tying this to projections of oil** 

### 6 **prices moving forward for panels.** 

### 7 **MR. LEWIS: I'm sorry. It is many** 

### 8 **factors because you have got metal and you** 

### 9 **have got insulation and you have also got** 

### 10 **component cam locks, which are again, back to** 

### 11 **metal but different types. It is not one** 

### 12 **number but it certainly doesn't go down year** 

### 13 **to year. We have, maybe in the last 20 years** 

### 14 **had one or two years that one component might** 

### 15 **go down, only because we have found some** 

### 16 **other competitive way to beat on them for** 

### 17 **that but not willingly because everybody's** 

### 18 **prices are going up.** 

### 19 **MR. McHUGH: But they are** 

### 20 **nonetheless related to some kind of commodity** 

### 21 **costs, metals and oil or something like that.** 

### 22 **MR. LEWIS: Yes, exactly.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 314**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: So any specific input**  

### 2 **on which commodity prices or chemical prices** 

### 3 **should be tied to this trend would be very** 

### 4 **helpful.** 

### 5 **So again, returning to the issue of** 

### 6 **base case efficiency distributions, this is** 

### 7 **the detail that I mentioned earlier. This is** 

### 8 **used in both the LCC and the NIA.** 

### 9 **So, the base case here is relative** 

### 10 **to what was prescribed in EISA. And for** 

### 11 **refrigeration systems, the analysis keeps 75** 

### 12 **percent at the baseline and the remainder is** 

### 13 **moved to a higher efficiency, I believe, in** 

### 14 **accordance with efficiency level one, on** 

### 15 **average.** 

### 16 **And for the components, 25 percent** 

### 17 **of the display doors are at the baseline; 75** 

### 18 **percent are distributed between EL1 and EL2.** 

### 19 **The freezer door is 80 percent are at the** 

### 20 **baseline and 100 percent of the other** 

### 21 **components are assumed to be at the baseline.** 

### 22 **So again, if there is information**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 315**  **1 that you can share with DOE to modify these**  

### 2 **distributions, these are not -- these are** 

### 3 **important in getting an accurate picture of** 

### 4 **the energy savings.** 

### 5 **So when we go from the baseline to a** 

### 6 **trial standard level, in this product** 

### 7 **analysis, DOE uses what they call a roll-up,** 

### 8 **which essentially if a purchaser was buying** 

### 9 **equipment that is not compliant, they are** 

### 10 **just moved up to the efficiency level at the** 

### 11 **current TSL. And so as you raise the TSL,** 

### 12 **you are sort of rolling up all the** 

### 13 **noncompliant purchasers to that minimum** 

### 14 **standard.** 

### 15 **So, these are the cumulative NES** 

### 16 **results and we are only presenting the** 

### 17 **combination tables in the notice. And in the** 

### 18 **TSD, you will see detailed tables broken down** 

### 19 **by refrigeration and envelopes separately.** 

### 20 **And there is also in the tables on** 

### 21 **refrigeration, they even break out the** 

### 22 **component of savings associated with being**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 316**  **1 able to downsize slightly the equipment. But**  

### 2 **these are the overall national energy savings** 

### 3 **in quads, quadrillion BTU. So, this is over** 

### 4 **the entire analysis period, which includes** 

### 5 **the units that were shipped over the 30 years** 

### 6 **from 2017 to 2047. And it is broken down** 

### 7 **here by medium and low temperature** 

### 8 **applications.** 

### 9 **So essentially, this typically --** 

### 10 **you know, the trial standard levels are** 

### 11 **typically ordered such that the total energy** 

### 12 **savings goes up as you go up in the index.** 

### 13 **And DOE uses what is called a full fuel cycle** 

### 14 **metric to calculate energy savings. Since** 

### 15 **these are primarily electricity consuming** 

### 16 **equipment, the primary energy savings refers** 

### 17 **to the energy consumed at the electricity** 

### 18 **power plant. And then we add an upstream** 

### 19 **component, which represents the energy** 

### 20 **consumed in producing the fuels that are** 

### 21 **delivered to the power plant.** 

### 22 **So, this adds a very small increment**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 317**  **1 to the total energy savings.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Mike.** 

### 3 **MR. STRAUB: Just a quick** 

### 4 **clarification. Is that title correct? Is** 

### 5 **2017 to 2073?** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, I think it is** 

### 7 **correct. Okay so again, this is an OMB rule** 

### 8 **about how the analysis should be done. So,** 

### 9 **you take the analysis period ends in 2047 but** 

### 10 **every unit that was shipped in 2047 you** 

### 11 **accumulate its energy savings in these** 

### 12 **totals. So, if the longest lived unit from** 

### 13 **2047 goes out of service in 2073, that gets** 

### 14 **up to this number. It is a very -- again,** 

### 15 **there is almost nothing -- I mean a fraction** 

### 16 **of a percent of the energy is coming from** 

### 17 **that long tail. But that is the sort of** 

### 18 **standardized procedure that DOE uses.** 

### 19 **So, this is a presentation of the** 

### 20 **NPV results. So again, these are the stream** 

### 21 **of either net costs or net benefits. Again,** 

### 22 **DOE uses a convention where LCC savings, so**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 318**  **1 savings to the consumer are represented as a**  

### 2 **positive number.** 

### 3 **And these are summed up over all the** 

### 4 **product classes. They have been separated** 

### 5 **here into medium and low temperature. And we** 

### 6 **have three percent discount rate and seven** 

### 7 **percent discount rate.** 

### 8 **MR. LEWIS: Is that for** 

### 9 **refrigeration or panels?** 

### 10 **MS. COUGHLIN: This is a combination** 

### 11 **of the two. So these are broken out by** 

### 12 **whether we are talking about freezers or** 

### 13 **coolers but it is the sum of the NPV values** 

### 14 **and the tables with the separate numbers are** 

### 15 **in the notice.** 

### 16 **So, here we could see very clearly** 

### 17 **max tech, which is TSL 6 is not cost** 

### 18 **effective. There is negative -- it costs the** 

### 19 **nation money to reach that level.** 

### 20 **TSL 5 is the maximum energy savings** 

### 21 **that is cost-effective. That is the** 

### 22 **definition that is used for TSL 5. And then**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 319**  **1 TSL 4 is the maximum NPV. And this is**  

### 2 **actually the way that the TSL is defined from** 

### 3 **the results is to go into each equipment type** 

### 4 **and choose the maximum NPV.** 

### 5 **So when we were discussing earlier** 

### 6 **why TSL 4 was selected, this is the reason** 

### 7 **why. So, this is the largest total** 

### 8 **population-wide benefit, even though for an** 

### 9 **individual purchaser of a single panel, it** 

### 10 **may not look terribly attractive. At the** 

### 11 **national level, savings are significant.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis.** 

### 13 **MR. CRAIG: Since this is compiled** 

### 14 **both refrigeration and walk-in panels, that** 

### 15 **is not -- is this chart right here is what** 

### 16 **they used to make that decision or did they** 

### 17 **look at each?** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: There is more detail** 

### 19 **that will be coming.** 

### 20 **MR. CRAIG: And do they look at each** 

### 21 **product line --** 

### 22 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 320**  **1 MR. CRAIG: -- or each component?**  

### 2 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. CRAIG: Separately before they** 

### 4 **make --** 

### 5 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. CRAIG: Okay, thank you.** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: Any questions on** 

### 8 **this? Okay.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 10 **MR. McHUGH: And for the development** 

### 11 **of this NPV out to 2046, is this making use** 

### 12 **of, for instance, a number of states now have** 

### 13 **renewable portfolio standards that, in** 

### 14 **general, raise the cost of electricity and** 

### 15 **also California and perhaps some other states** 

### 16 **will be having a cap and trade, carbon cap** 

### 17 **and trade or is this just purely a function** 

### 18 **of essentially natural gas costs moving** 

### 19 **forward?** 

### 20 **MS. COUGHLIN: So our electricity** 

### 21 **price projection comes from the annual energy** 

### 22 **outlook, which includes any legislative or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 321**  **1 other industry change that has been enacted,**  

### 2 **but not those that are believed to be coming.** 

### 3 **So, AEO does predict much higher penetration** 

### 4 **rates now of renewable energy and that has an** 

### 5 **effect on the prices and it also has natural** 

### 6 **gas price projections, which are low these** 

### 7 **days. So, that also affects prices.** 

### 8 **So the AEO is something that, in** 

### 9 **itself, changes from one year to the next.** 

### 10 **It is published each year and the price** 

### 11 **projection for AEO 2016 may look very** 

### 12 **different from what we are using now.** 

### 13 **But having said that, the current** 

### 14 **electricity price projection is pretty flat** 

### 15 **in real terms.** 

### 16 **MR. McHUGH: Okay, thanks.** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: So moving on, there** 

### 18 **is what the economists refer to as the** 

### 19 **rebound effect, which suggests that when you** 

### 20 **make something cheaper, people will use more** 

### 21 **of it. And this is actually something that we** 

### 22 **try to account for in energy savings**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 322**  **1 estimates. It would be a change in the user**  

### 2 **behavior that might affect your estimate of** 

### 3 **future energy savings.** 

### 4 **So, it is not clear how this would** 

### 5 **work with refrigeration because it is a very** 

### 6 **utilitarian application. Something like** 

### 7 **lighting it may be that if the lights are** 

### 8 **cheaper or more efficient, people will leave** 

### 9 **them on longer and you would get a measurable** 

### 10 **rebound effect.** 

### 11 **So, for this particular product, DOE** 

### 12 **has assumed that there is no rebound effect -** 

### 13 **- that consumer use of the product remains** 

### 14 **the same. However, there are a variety of** 

### 15 **ways where that may be incorrect. People may** 

### 16 **choose to oversize their systems more or** 

### 17 **leave the doors open or something like that.** 

### 18 **Again, DOE would welcome comment** 

### 19 **from anyone who has an idea of how consumer** 

### 20 **use of the product might change under the** 

### 21 **standard.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Any thoughts**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 323**  **1 on how usage patterns would change or**  

### 2 **anything like that? Jim.** 

### 3 **MR. KINSER: I thought this was** 

### 4 **interesting. We went to see a customer and** 

### 5 **they had LED lights. And inside the walk-in** 

### 6 **freezer was one of those little balloons that** 

### 7 **you see hanging up outside that kids will** 

### 8 **buy, spinning. And we asked them why. And** 

### 9 **the lady said that they were afraid that the** 

### 10 **light would go off while they were back in** 

### 11 **the freezer and they didn't want to get** 

### 12 **caught in the dark. So they hung this** 

### 13 **balloon thing inside the air stream of the** 

### 14 **evaporator so the lights stayed on all the** 

### 15 **time. I am glad we put the LED in and an** 

### 16 **automatic off switch so that the lights** 

### 17 **stayed on all the time. That's all.** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: That is a perfect** 

### 19 **example of a rebound.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, your** 

### 21 **name, please.** 

### 22 **MR. HAUER: I am Armin Hauer of ebm-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 324**  **1 papst. Maybe I have missed it but the**  

### 2 **rebound effect, would you also call that a** 

### 3 **rebound effect if somebody rather repairs an** 

### 4 **old cooler instead of investing in a new one?** 

### 5 **MS. COUGHLIN: No, that is not -- we** 

### 6 **don't call that a rebound effect. We do** 

### 7 **include that. We can include that in the** 

### 8 **modeling if it is -- again, if we have some** 

### 9 **kind of way of quantifying the degree to** 

### 10 **which that could occur. We call that** 

### 11 **extended lifetime repairs, essentially.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional** 

### 13 **comments on this comment box?** 

### 14 **Okay.** 

### 15 **MS. COUGHLIN: So, that is it for** 

### 16 **the consumer and national analyses. And then** 

### 17 **the next step is the discussion of** 

### 18 **manufacturer impact analysis.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 20 **Chris Lau.** 

### 21 **MR. LAU: Hello. My name is Chris** 

### 22 **Lau. I am with Navigant and I will be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 325**  **1 discussing the manufacturer impact analysis**  

### 2 **today.** 

### 3 **The main purpose of this analysis is** 

### 4 **to assess the impact of proposed standards on** 

### 5 **manufacturers of walk-in refrigeration** 

### 6 **systems, panels and doors.** 

### 7 **A second purpose is identifying** 

### 8 **qualified impacts on manufacturer subgroups,** 

### 9 **such as small businesses. And then the final** 

### 10 **portion of the MIA involves discussion of** 

### 11 **direct employment, competitive** 

### 12 **considerations, potential capacity** 

### 13 **constraints and other federal regulations** 

### 14 **that go into effect around the compliance** 

### 15 **date of this rulemaking.** 

### 16 **The primary tool used is the** 

### 17 **Government Regulatory Impact Model. It is a** 

### 18 **cash flow model used to represent the** 

### 19 **industry as a whole. The major output of the** 

### 20 **cash flow model is an industry net present** 

### 21 **value. The change in INPV succinctly** 

### 22 **quantifies the impacts of standards on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 326**  **1 manufacturers.**  

### 2 **For the MIA, DOE conducted extensive** 

### 3 **interviews with the manufacturers of the** 

### 4 **covered product to validate and refine inputs** 

### 5 **of the Government Regulatory Impact Model and** 

### 6 **to understand qualitative issues.** 

### 7 **In general, we conduct this analysis** 

### 8 **in three phases. Phase 1 happens during the** 

### 9 **preliminary analysis. We create an industry** 

### 10 **profile, based on public documents such as** 

### 11 **SEC filings, U.S. census data, and research** 

### 12 **reports. Phases 2 and 3 occur during the** 

### 13 **NOPR phase, where we are today.** 

### 14 **Using public data, as well as input** 

### 15 **from the engineering analysis and shipments** 

### 16 **analysis, we begin to outline the industry in** 

### 17 **the GRIM.** 

### 18 **Key quantitative inputs and** 

### 19 **qualitative issues are validated through the** 

### 20 **interviews, and based on feedback, we refine** 

### 21 **our model and examine potential impacts in** 

### 22 **the industry.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 327**  **1 On the qualitative side, one of the**  

### 2 **primary outputs is a list of industry key** 

### 3 **issues. The top three are highlighted here.** 

### 4 **I think we have actually touched on all of** 

### 5 **these at some point during the day. But for** 

### 6 **the sake of completeness, the key issues are:** 

### 7 **1) Test burden. Manufacturers expressed** 

### 8 **concern over the cost of testing and over** 

### 9 **test lab availability.** 

### 10 **2) Profitability impacts. As costs** 

### 11 **increase, manufacturers had concerns about** 

### 12 **reduced sales volume and reduced** 

### 13 **profitability. And** 

### 14 **3) There are concerns about excess** 

### 15 **conversion costs, particularly from panel** 

### 16 **manufacturers at six or seven inches -- at** 

### 17 **six- or seven-inch thick panels and from** 

### 18 **refrigeration and display door manufacturers,** 

### 19 **due to the high level of customization and** 

### 20 **large numbers of basic models.** 

### 21 **On the quantitative side for the** 

### 22 **MIA, we looked at refrigeration systems,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 328**  **1 panels, and door manufacturing as separate**  

### 2 **industries. We also looked at small** 

### 3 **businesses for each of these subgroups.** 

### 4 **Taking into account the financial** 

### 5 **parameters from SEC filings, NPCs from the** 

### 6 **engineering analysis, shipments forecast from** 

### 7 **the shipments analysis, conversion cost** 

### 8 **estimates, and the range of potential** 

### 9 **markups, DOE was able to estimate a range of** 

### 10 **potential impacts in the industry, which was** 

### 11 **summed up by changing INPV.** 

### 12 **Looking at the combined industry and** 

### 13 **aggregate, DOE expects a loss of nine percent** 

### 14 **to no change in INPV. And this is just** 

### 15 **refrigeration panels and doors combined.** 

### 16 **Looking at the refrigeration** 

### 17 **industry, in particular, as a discrete** 

### 18 **industry, DOE estimates a potential loss of** 

### 19 **18.8 percent to 2.3 percent of INPV.** 

### 20 **Looking at the walk-in panel** 

### 21 **manufacturers as a discrete industry, DOE** 

### 22 **estimates a loss of 25 percent to a loss of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 329**  **1 11.5 percent INPV.**  

### 2 **And looking at the door industry,** 

### 3 **DOE anticipates a loss of three percent to a** 

### 4 **potential gain of three percent of INPV.** 

### 5 **Based on public resources, as well** 

### 6 **as confidential interviews, DOE attempted to** 

### 7 **identify all small manufacturers in the** 

### 8 **industry. The output of that was they** 

### 9 **identified two small refrigeration systems** 

### 10 **manufacturers, at least 42 small panel** 

### 11 **manufacturers, and for wall-in doors, they** 

### 12 **identified five small manufacturers that** 

### 13 **primarily engaged in the business of** 

### 14 **producing doors, rather than panels.** 

### 15 **Based on DOE's understanding of the** 

### 16 **industry and our analysis, DOE could not** 

### 17 **certify that the proposed standard would not** 

### 18 **have significant impact on a substantial** 

### 19 **number of small businesses.** 

### 20 **The key drivers here were the large** 

### 21 **number of small business panel manufacturers** 

### 22 **and a potential disproportionate negative**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 330**  **1 impact on small versus large panel**  

### 2 **manufacturers, as well as the key role of** 

### 3 **certain small niche manufacturers for display** 

### 4 **doors and freight doors.** 

### 5 **DOE published initial regulatory** 

### 6 **flexibility analysis for the SBA. This is** 

### 7 **published in the NOPR, and it takes a look at** 

### 8 **some of the potential impacts on small versus** 

### 9 **large businesses.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon?** 

### 11 **MR. LEWIS: A quick question. Since** 

### 12 **you say we are going to be impacted, you said** 

### 13 **the number of manufacturers may shrink, what** 

### 14 **is the acceptable level of as a percentage of** 

### 15 **people you put out of business that is** 

### 16 **allowed through this government process?** 

### 17 **I mean, if there is 42 of us, do you** 

### 18 **want 30 left? Or I mean, is there a number?** 

### 19 **You know this is the first time we have come** 

### 20 **into this. You have done many other** 

### 21 **industries but is there a number? Are** 

### 22 **lawyers -- is it just whatever happens?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 331**  **1 MR. LAU: As far as I know DOE does**  

### 2 **not target a certain number of businesses.** 

### 3 **MR. LEWIS: Right but I mean you** 

### 4 **know there is going to be an effect, the** 

### 5 **smaller they are, in having to buy that** 

### 6 **million dollar fixture --** 

### 7 **MR. LAU: Yes, I don't necessarily** 

### 8 **think that is realistic.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael Kido.** 

### 10 **MR. KIDO: Well, we will take a look** 

### 11 **at whatever data come in. And obviously, it** 

### 12 **is not something that we can really answer.** 

### 13 **We are going to have to take a look** 

### 14 **at the information that we have, kind of** 

### 15 **evaluate it on a case by case basis and a lot** 

### 16 **of that is going to be dependent on whatever** 

### 17 **information we end up getting back as part of** 

### 18 **this process.** 

### 19 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles Llenza,** 

### 20 **Department of Energy. What I would recommend** 

### 21 **is that you get back to us with comments as** 

### 22 **to how severely impacted all of you are going**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 332**  **1 to be, in what ways, in what particular**  

### 2 **issues with the rulemaking that you have** 

### 3 **problems that will impact you. And those are** 

### 4 **the things that we would consider in** 

### 5 **finalizing the final level in the final rule.** 

### 6 **MR. LEWIS: I guess given that say** 

### 7 **you all have looked in your engineering** 

### 8 **impact and we are going to have to buy a** 

### 9 **million dollar fixture, we can't plan that we** 

### 10 **are going to only charge a dime a square foot** 

### 11 **more for 40 years to get our money back.** 

### 12 **That is going to change the price of the** 

### 13 **panels much differently. And the larger the** 

### 14 **manufacturer, the less that affects his** 

### 15 **price. Therefore, he has a competitive** 

### 16 **advantage in 2017 that he doesn't have now or** 

### 17 **she -- they.** 

### 18 **So, how is that factored in or is** 

### 19 **it?** 

### 20 **MR. LAU: So, to help address that,** 

### 21 **in the regulatory flexibility analysis, we do** 

### 22 **look at the impact of conversion costs on an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 333**  **1 average small manufacturer versus the average**  

### 2 **large manufacturer. And so we do try to** 

### 3 **quantify some of those disproportionate** 

### 4 **costs.** 

### 5 **However, in terms of analysis, DOE** 

### 6 **is looking at the aggregate positive and** 

### 7 **negative impacts in terms of selecting a** 

### 8 **standard level.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jim.** 

### 10 **MR. KINSER: I would ask that the** 

### 11 **DOE would consider changing the size of what** 

### 12 **they call a small business from 750 employees** 

### 13 **down to 50 employees.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 15 **you. Ellis.** 

### 16 **MR. CRAIG: First of all, the 750 is** 

### 17 **probably the applicable number because the** 

### 18 **Small Business Administration that is what** 

### 19 **they are saying is what is going on. It just** 

### 20 **so happens we just got a lot of small** 

### 21 **businesses in our business.** 

### 22 **What I am really concerned about is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 334**  **1 that I don't see -- we did -- they came out**  

### 2 **with you had to be certified, which means you** 

### 3 **had to register with the DOE here a year ago** 

### 4 **and file that you are compliant. And there** 

### 5 **were like nine manufacturers, six to nine** 

### 6 **manufacturers who didn't do that. And then** 

### 7 **we got calls from them saying they were** 

### 8 **charged $300,000 in fines for not doing that.** 

### 9 **And these were just small businesses. Now if** 

### 10 **this is the kind of thing that is going to go** 

### 11 **on and I know we talked to two of them that** 

### 12 **told us they were going to go out of business** 

### 13 **and they just told them they weren't going to** 

### 14 **go out of business. They were going out of** 

### 15 **business, shutting their doors, and that was** 

### 16 **it. And they wrote off the $300,000 and** 

### 17 **didn't charge it.** 

### 18 **But I know they are doing that now** 

### 19 **and we haven't even implemented this yet.** 

### 20 **This is just a matter of calling in and make** 

### 21 **a signature.** 

### 22 **So, it needs to be addressed because**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 335**  **1 it has an effect. You are familiar with**  

### 2 **this, probably.** 

### 3 **MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.** 

### 4 **Yes, Ellis, I am very familiar with what you** 

### 5 **are talking about. I will say that the** 

### 6 **number is not $300,000 or anywhere** 

### 7 **approaching that in order of magnitude.** 

### 8 **So, if you review our public** 

### 9 **website, you will see that manufacturers who** 

### 10 **failed to comply, which your manufacturer** 

### 11 **obviously did, so were charged $8,000 for** 

### 12 **their failure to comply, which is standard** 

### 13 **across all industries. So, that is ancillary** 

### 14 **to this rulemaking at the moment. So, I** 

### 15 **don't think there is much more to go into** 

### 16 **that. But I do want to clarify that for the** 

### 17 **record.** 

### 18 **Now, with regards to the impact on** 

### 19 **small business, we do take that very** 

### 20 **seriously and we considered that when we were** 

### 21 **looking at that for all enforcement purposes** 

### 22 **and we will continue to consider that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 336**  **1 The Department takes this very**  

### 2 **seriously and we will continue to look at it.** 

### 3 **And what we ask is that in your comments,** 

### 4 **each one of you, and we understand this is a** 

### 5 **large industry with a lot of small** 

### 6 **businesses, explain that impact so we can** 

### 7 **quantify that and understand it best when we** 

### 8 **are balancing what to do next with the** 

### 9 **rulemaking.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Ellis,** 

### 11 **go ahead.** 

### 12 **MR. CRAIG: Concerning your -- was** 

### 13 **this a negotiated settlement of $8,000 or was** 

### 14 **it a lot larger to start with?** 

### 15 **MR. RAWALD: Enforcement actions are** 

### 16 **a public record and you can review** 

### 17 **enforcement actions. What I will tell you is** 

### 18 **that in each case we tell people what the** 

### 19 **maximum fine could be and then we offer a** 

### 20 **settlement figure.** 

### 21 **MR. CRAIG: Okay, that makes sense.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 337**  **1 MR. LEWIS: Right, I know we**  

### 2 **manufacturers are hung up on these million** 

### 3 **dollar fixtures. Based on what you have done** 

### 4 **with other industries, is there a possibility** 

### 5 **of rapid amortization -- depreciation, excuse** 

### 6 **me, of these fixtures, something that would** 

### 7 **help the smaller people get over that hurdle?** 

### 8 **Have you done that with other industries?** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You are** 

### 10 **talking about tax policy or something.** 

### 11 **MR. LEWIS: Something that would** 

### 12 **keep people in business.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That would** 

### 14 **typically not be the purview of DOE. That** 

### 15 **would be an extra deal. That would be beyond** 

### 16 **DOE's potential for remedy.** 

### 17 **Okay. Yes, Charlie, please.** 

### 18 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden,** 

### 19 **ACCA.** 

### 20 **A question about the MIA. At the** 

### 21 **beginning we heard a lot of discussion about** 

### 22 **manufacturers and assemblers, who is what.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 338**  **1 Does this look at manufacturers and**  

### 2 **assemblers or just manufacturers of the** 

### 3 **components that make up a walk-in cooler or** 

### 4 **freezer?** 

### 5 **MR. LAU: So in this case, we took a** 

### 6 **strict definition of manufacturers of the** 

### 7 **covered components.** 

### 8 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Okay, so this** 

### 9 **analysis isn't looking at the impact on the** 

### 10 **small, I will call them assemblers.** 

### 11 **MR. LAU: It does not look at** 

### 12 **installation contractors.** 

### 13 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Okay. I will just** 

### 14 **add on for the small manufacturers who are** 

### 15 **here who may be reluctant to provide** 

### 16 **information to DOE on certain aspects of** 

### 17 **their businesses, you can provide** 

### 18 **confidential business information that is not** 

### 19 **shared with anyone. And I would suggest that** 

### 20 **you all do that, if you are willing, because** 

### 21 **I think it is going to help them understand** 

### 22 **where you are all coming from.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 339**  **1 MR. LAU: Thank you. Yes, I will**  

### 2 **reiterate that point. And that is, any** 

### 3 **information you submit to DOE either here on** 

### 4 **the spoken record or in written comments, it** 

### 5 **becomes part of the public record.** 

### 6 **If there is information you think** 

### 7 **would help steer the analysis in a better** 

### 8 **direction, however, you wish to remain** 

### 9 **confidential, you are able to enter into an** 

### 10 **NDA with Navigant and the other contractors.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And that is** 

### 12 **entirely confidential.** 

### 13 **MR. LAU: Right.** 

### 14 **MR. LEWIS: And American Panel did** 

### 15 **some of that and they haven't told anybody up** 

### 16 **to now. So, it works.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Good.** 

### 18 **MR. LEWIS: Everybody ought to send** 

### 19 **it in.** 

### 20 **MR. LAU: Along those lines, you** 

### 21 **know in the NOPR the way we --** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Michael.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 340**  **1 MR. KIDO: Yes, just to clarify, all**  

### 2 **of that would be subject to various federal** 

### 3 **statutes. So, just to make that clear.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 5 **you.** 

### 6 **MR. LAU: In the NOPR we quantify** 

### 7 **the impacts on small manufacturers from** 

### 8 **conversion costs and we put it in terms of** 

### 9 **percent of revenue and percent of operating** 

### 10 **profit.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon, you have** 

### 12 **a question or comment?** 

### 13 **MR. McHUGH: Yes, this is actually** 

### 14 **about the table on the previous slide.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Microphone,** 

### 16 **Jon.** 

### 17 **MR. McHUGH: Slide 76. And so, you** 

### 18 **have a fixed number for the conversion costs** 

### 19 **for the industry and you have a broad range** 

### 20 **of potential changes in net present value.** 

### 21 **What are the other costs, besides conversion** 

### 22 **costs? I mean are you looking at elasticity**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 341**  **1 of sales of products or what sort of driving**  

### 2 **a fairly broad range.** 

### 3 **MR. LAU: For this particular** 

### 4 **rulemaking, it is a sensitivity to markups,** 

### 5 **whether manufacturers will pass on the full** 

### 6 **price increases to their consumers or whether** 

### 7 **they are only able to pass a partial amount** 

### 8 **to their consumers.** 

### 9 **MR. McHUGH: Okay. So, it is a** 

### 10 **level of competitiveness in that market. I** 

### 11 **see. Thank you.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, let's** 

### 13 **move on. Oh, a question. Robert.** 

### 14 **MR. WILKINS: I would like to change** 

### 15 **gears from the small manufacturers and** 

### 16 **reflect back on refrigeration systems. As** 

### 17 **you recall, we discussed earlier that a** 

### 18 **certain portion of these aren't sold as a** 

### 19 **system. They are built up in the field by** 

### 20 **the contractor, who buys a condensing unit,** 

### 21 **an indoor unit, various other components and** 

### 22 **controls and then assembles on the job site.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 342**  **1 There are a number of us, my company**  

### 2 **included, who produce condensing units but** 

### 3 **don't produce the evaporator assemblies. So,** 

### 4 **we would, under this rulemaking, it appears** 

### 5 **to be we would be precluded from this** 

### 6 **business, since we don't make the** 

### 7 **refrigeration system, we only make a part of** 

### 8 **it. So, we would be impacted by not being** 

### 9 **able -- being forced out of this business.** 

### 10 **And there are several of our competitors in** 

### 11 **this category.** 

### 12 **I am curious how we should respond** 

### 13 **to this and how the impact on our businesses** 

### 14 **would be evaluated by the DOE.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's see if** 

### 16 **we can -- so can you offer a response, Chris?** 

### 17 **MR. LAU: Sure. I think there are** 

### 18 **two things here. One is, you are correct** 

### 19 **under the current definition. It is a** 

### 20 **manufacturer's complete system that has been** 

### 21 **analyzed. So you could submit comment as to** 

### 22 **the role of your business industry and the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 343**  **1 anticipated impacts.**  

### 2 **Two, if we take the bifurcation** 

### 3 **route, which I don't know if that is DOE's** 

### 4 **intention, however, if we were to take that** 

### 5 **route, your company would be considered in** 

### 6 **the analysis as a manufacturer of the unit** 

### 7 **cooler or the condensing unit.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes,** 

### 9 **Ellis.** 

### 10 **MR. CRAIG: He brings up a pretty** 

### 11 **good point. If we are not breaking the** 

### 12 **condensers away from the evaporators that the** 

### 13 **manufacturer has to supply them as a system** 

### 14 **and the definition of a manufacturer, as far** 

### 15 **as what the DOE has always approved means** 

### 16 **that the contractor out in the field, which** 

### 17 **could be the manufacturer, because he is** 

### 18 **picking the coil and he is picking the** 

### 19 **condensing unit, then technically, he would** 

### 20 **have to do testing to do that. And since a** 

### 21 **contractor in the field is not going to go to** 

### 22 **testing to see if he can pick a coil and pick**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 344**  **1 a condensing unit, technically, the**  

### 2 **contractors out in the field now are** 

### 3 **manufacturers. So, therefore, they won't be** 

### 4 **selling anything but complete systems. So** 

### 5 **that would even hurt him worse.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert.** 

### 7 **MR. WILKINS: Robert. As you can** 

### 8 **see, it has a serious impact on our business** 

### 9 **and potentially has the effect of driving us** 

### 10 **out of the business if it is precluded from** 

### 11 **continuing to provide condensing units as the** 

### 12 **industry does today.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, let's** 

### 14 **proceed. I think we are on slide 80.** 

### 15 **(Pause.)** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Here we go.** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: Sorry about that.** 

### 18 **So, I am going to talk about the life-cycle** 

### 19 **costs subgroup analysis. This is an analysis** 

### 20 **that is done to identify a group of consumers** 

### 21 **or purchasers of the equipment who may have** 

### 22 **some aspect of their economics that is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 345**  **1 different from the population averages.**  

### 2 **For most applications that refers to** 

### 3 **small businesses. And in this particular** 

### 4 **case, DOE used small restaurants as a** 

### 5 **representative of small business users of the** 

### 6 **equipment. The main difference is with small** 

### 7 **businesses is that they have higher** 

### 8 **electricity prices. They also have higher** 

### 9 **cost of capital, typically, and they may have** 

### 10 **higher markup channels because they don't** 

### 11 **have access to national accounts.** 

### 12 **So, DOE goes through the life-cycle** 

### 13 **cost analysis and simply changes those** 

### 14 **distributions on discount rates and changes** 

### 15 **the electricity prices to recalculate the LCC** 

### 16 **for the subgroups.** 

### 17 **And there is a series of tables in** 

### 18 **the notice in Section 5 that present the LCC** 

### 19 **results for the population as a whole and** 

### 20 **then for this subgroup of small businesses.** 

### 21 **And generally what happens is that even** 

### 22 **though the purchase price and cost of capital**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 346**  **1 may be higher, most small businesses also**  

### 2 **have substantially higher electricity prices** 

### 3 **than the average.** 

### 4 **So for electricity pricing, the** 

### 5 **relevant definition of small is the size of** 

### 6 **the peak load for the building. So, looking** 

### 7 **at individual small restaurants and say** 

### 8 **stores, the electricity prices can be 10 to** 

### 9 **20 percent higher than the average. There is** 

### 10 **quite a large premium associated with small** 

### 11 **businesses.** 

### 12 **So, they tend to balance the** 

### 13 **increased purchase cost and overall the LCC** 

### 14 **results only change by a few percent. There** 

### 15 **is some variability but there is really no** 

### 16 **major differences.** 

### 17 **And the cost-effectiveness that** 

### 18 **contributes to the determination of the TSL** 

### 19 **is not affected by the small business** 

### 20 **subgroup analysis. I think that is it. Yes.** 

### 21 **So, another side analysis that DOE** 

### 22 **produces is the emissions analysis. And then**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 347**  **1 again, this follows pretty much in a**  

### 2 **straightforward way from the energy savings** 

### 3 **analysis. So these are just numbers that DOE** 

### 4 **quotes and the emissions that are considered** 

### 5 **are carbon dioxide, NOx, mercury, and sulfur** 

### 6 **dioxide are power sector pollutants and then** 

### 7 **nitrous oxide, N20 and methane CH4 are** 

### 8 **greenhouse gases.** 

### 9 **So these again are part of a general** 

### 10 **federal government policy framework. DOE** 

### 11 **does these calculations and publishes the** 

### 12 **results.** 

### 13 **So, the emissions reductions are** 

### 14 **tabulated here. Here again, they generally** 

### 15 **scale with energy savings. And for methane** 

### 16 **and nitrous oxide, these emissions reductions** 

### 17 **are actually coming from the full fuel cycle** 

### 18 **analysis. So, these come from the upstream** 

### 19 **activities associated with energy production.** 

### 20 **Now, there is again a broad federal** 

### 21 **government instruction about monetizing the** 

### 22 **emissions reductions. An interagency process**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 348**  **1 was convened several years ago to develop**  

### 2 **what is called the Social Cost of Carbon,** 

### 3 **which is a value associated with the damages** 

### 4 **that could occur from CO2 pollution and a** 

### 5 **benefit associated with avoiding those** 

### 6 **damages.** 

### 7 **So, these Social Cost of Carbon** 

### 8 **numbers currently include agricultural** 

### 9 **productivity, health effects, property damage** 

### 10 **from sea level rise, and a number of** 

### 11 **ecosystem changes.** 

### 12 **And recently, the U.S. government** 

### 13 **updated their Social Cost of Carbon estimates** 

### 14 **and these are the values. They range from** 

### 15 **$12.90 per ton to $117 per metric ton of** 

### 16 **emissions.** 

### 17 **For some reason we quote -- this is** 

### 18 **following the Energy Information Agency** 

### 19 **Practice, we quote CO2 in metric tons and** 

### 20 **everything else in U.S. tons. And also DOE** 

### 21 **monetizes NOx emissions as well. But these** 

### 22 **monetized values are not added to the NPV**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 349**  **1 numbers that you saw earlier. They are**  

### 2 **quoted separately.** 

### 3 **So, this gives you a table again of** 

### 4 **pretty much just straight arithmetic. You** 

### 5 **take the emission savings. You multiply them** 

### 6 **by the various values for the Social Cost of** 

### 7 **Carbon. And then again over our analysis** 

### 8 **period, those are discounted at various** 

### 9 **discount rates as shown on the table. So in** 

### 10 **magnitude, the Social Cost of Carbon numbers** 

### 11 **can be fairly significant.** 

### 12 **Let's see. And these are the tables** 

### 13 **for the NOx monetization of NOx emissions.** 

### 14 **And then another analysis that is** 

### 15 **done as part of the set of routine analyses** 

### 16 **for all products. It is what is called the** 

### 17 **utility impact analysis. So, given the** 

### 18 **reduction in electricity demand that arises** 

### 19 **from the amended standards, you have a** 

### 20 **reduction in the requirement to generate** 

### 21 **electricity. So, there is impacts on the** 

### 22 **utility sector in the form of reduced**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 350**  **1 installed capacity and reduced generation.**  

### 2 **So, DOE calculates or estimates** 

### 3 **these numbers using the National Energy** 

### 4 **Modeling System, a version that is adapted to** 

### 5 **this program, which is known as NEMS-BT. The** 

### 6 **output in the utility impacts chapter of the** 

### 7 **TSD shows more detail. But essentially, we** 

### 8 **get reductions in total generation,** 

### 9 **reductions in generation by fuel type, and** 

### 10 **reductions in the installed capacity.** 

### 11 **So again, this shows the total** 

### 12 **installed capacity reductions by TSL in the** 

### 13 **various out years. And again, these are** 

### 14 **based relative now to AEO's baseline** 

### 15 **forecast. And electricity generation** 

### 16 **reductions, which are pretty much the** 

### 17 **equivalent of the energy savings predicted by** 

### 18 **the NIA plus transmission losses.** 

### 19 **And then the last additional** 

### 20 **analysis that is done is the employment** 

### 21 **analysis. So this is indirect employment** 

### 22 **impacts associated with the changes in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 351**  **1 expenditures. So, this does not include**  

### 2 **employment inside the manufacturers directly.** 

### 3 **So, the method used is called an** 

### 4 **ImSET model. If you are familiar with** 

### 5 **input/output models that are used in economic** 

### 6 **modeling, there is a correlation,** 

### 7 **essentially, between expenditures in various** 

### 8 **industries. The fundamental idea is that the** 

### 9 **LCC savings frees up dollars, which can be** 

### 10 **spent elsewhere in the economy and that may** 

### 11 **have an impact in creating additional jobs.** 

### 12 **On the other hand, if you were** 

### 13 **lowering the expenditures to the electricity** 

### 14 **sector, there may be an impact of reduced** 

### 15 **jobs related to electricity. So this model** 

### 16 **attempts to balance all of those impacts and** 

### 17 **come up with an estimate of future employment** 

### 18 **impacts do to the standard.** 

### 19 **So, these are four -- each standard** 

### 20 **level which is quoted in the start year in** 

### 21 **2021, the overall national impacts are on the** 

### 22 **order of one to a few thousand of jobs. It**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 352**  **1 is a positive number. That is the most**  

### 2 **significant thing. So, the model doesn't** 

### 3 **suggest a negative employment impact. And of** 

### 4 **course, these are not enormously certain** 

### 5 **numbers but they are essentially a close to** 

### 6 **negligible impact on employment.** 

### 7 **The final, I think it is the final** 

### 8 **one, the regulatory impact analysis is** 

### 9 **designed to look at whether a voluntary or** 

### 10 **essentially a non-regulatory program could** 

### 11 **achieve energy savings comparable to the** 

### 12 **proposed standard.** 

### 13 **So, the non-regulatory alternatives** 

### 14 **that are considered are very dependent on** 

### 15 **what has been tested already in the market.** 

### 16 **So, DOE does not actually invent a voluntary** 

### 17 **program to compare the standards program to.** 

### 18 **It looks for evidence that voluntary program** 

### 19 **designs could achieve certain results.** 

### 20 **So, in a broad sense, the type of** 

### 21 **non-regulatory action would be say instead of** 

### 22 **programs possibly operated at the state level**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 353**  **1 or by utilities for early replacement of**  

### 2 **inefficient equipment, prescriptive** 

### 3 **standards, consumer tax credits or** 

### 4 **manufacturer tax credits, consumer rebates,** 

### 5 **and ENERGY STAR type voluntary efficiency** 

### 6 **targets and government procurement.** 

### 7 **MR. LEWIS: Katie, what would be the** 

### 8 **manufacturer tax credit, who that would come** 

### 9 **from?** 

### 10 **MS. COUGHLIN: Well, that would** 

### 11 **depend on specifics. It could be a state or** 

### 12 **a federal government tax credit.** 

### 13 **MR. LEWIS: And what starts that** 

### 14 **process?** 

### 15 **MS. COUGHLIN: Legislation,** 

### 16 **generally. So you look at say for** 

### 17 **manufacturing of solar panels. There are** 

### 18 **numerous tax incentives associated with that.** 

### 19 **So, these are usually, there is some** 

### 20 **stakeholder community that will do that.** 

### 21 **So, for this product there is very** 

### 22 **little in terms of existing programs for DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 354**  **1 to look at in terms of results. So, what DOE**  

### 2 **did for this analysis is just assumed that if** 

### 3 **you moved a certain fraction of the market to** 

### 4 **a TSL, what would be the savings associated** 

### 5 **with that. And that is done by going into** 

### 6 **the national impacts model and simply** 

### 7 **changing the market share of efficient** 

### 8 **equipment.** 

### 9 **So, when you pass a standard, you** 

### 10 **know 100 percent of people are supposed to go** 

### 11 **to the standard. If you have some kind of** 

### 12 **voluntary program, you may get five or ten** 

### 13 **percent of people moving to that standard.** 

### 14 **So, then the output is just the** 

### 15 **national energy savings and the NPV** 

### 16 **associated with the voluntary program.** 

### 17 **So, there are some numbers quoted in** 

### 18 **the TSD, but again, these are hypothetical** 

### 19 **based on if you could move a certain segment** 

### 20 **of the market, this is what you would get.** 

### 21 **And I think the only ones that were** 

### 22 **considered because, again, there is no**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 355**  **1 existing voluntary program to use as a**  

### 2 **template. So, consumer tax credits and** 

### 3 **rebate programs were considered explicitly** 

### 4 **for this analysis.** 

### 5 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, I'm done.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Charlie?** 

### 7 **MR. McCRUDDEN: It is my** 

### 8 **understanding that this equipment may qualify** 

### 9 **perhaps in new restaurant construction only** 

### 10 **for a 15-year depreciation schedule. Did you** 

### 11 **look at that?** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: That has not been, no.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie, say** 

### 14 **it again. What is that?** 

### 15 **MR. McCRUDDEN: So, at the end of** 

### 16 **2012, as part of tax extenders, there is the** 

### 17 **50/60 federal tax incentives that are out** 

### 18 **there. Some of it is known as the 15-year** 

### 19 **accelerated depreciation for qualified** 

### 20 **restaurant, retail and there is one other** 

### 21 **type of building. It is my understanding** 

### 22 **that this equipment is considered part of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 356**  **1 that allowance, only for new restaurants --**  

### 2 **oh, leasehold. That is the other. That is** 

### 3 **the third one, leasehold buildings.** 

### 4 **I have never seen data on how many** 

### 5 **building owners take advantage of this. But** 

### 6 **if the product currently has a 39-year** 

### 7 **depreciation schedule or a 20-year, I think** 

### 8 **it is probably a 39 as a building fixture, 15** 

### 9 **is a little bit better incentive. I don't** 

### 10 **know if you want to look at that, do some** 

### 11 **research on that.** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 13 **MR. McCRUDDEN: It would be in** 

### 14 **Section 179(K) and then I don't know the** 

### 15 **follow-up numbers but 179(K).** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks** 

### 17 **for that.** 

### 18 **Rebecca. Now we are going to hear** 

### 19 **from Rebecca Legett on the proposed standard** 

### 20 **segment. We are getting near the end of it,** 

### 21 **folks. Hang in there.** 

### 22 **MS. LEGETT: So this is pretty much**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 357**  **1 the final section of the presentation. I am**  

### 2 **going to be talking about the trial standard** 

### 3 **levels in more detail than we heard about** 

### 4 **before and how this actually plays into the** 

### 5 **proposed standard itself, you know, what you** 

### 6 **have all been waiting for.** 

### 7 **So again, getting into more detail** 

### 8 **than before, the trial standard levels are** 

### 9 **how we tried to make sense of the fact that** 

### 10 **if you have a bunch of ELs for refrigeration** 

### 11 **systems, panels, doors, you have hundreds of** 

### 12 **combinations. So, what we did here was we** 

### 13 **tried to pick out combinations of ELs that** 

### 14 **were significant in some way and corresponded** 

### 15 **to certain criteria and represented a range** 

### 16 **of the walk-ins market.** 

### 17 **So, for refrigeration system levels,** 

### 18 **we considered three different criteria. One** 

### 19 **criterion was the highest efficiency level** 

### 20 **that could be met by systems utilizing all** 

### 21 **compressor types. Earlier, I mentioned that** 

### 22 **we considered systems with hermetic**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 358**  **1 reciprocating, scroll, and semi-hermetic,**  

### 2 **based on comments. One level we considered** 

### 3 **was one that was chosen not to disadvantage** 

### 4 **one or the other type of compressor in** 

### 5 **response to comments.** 

### 6 **For refrigeration systems, we also** 

### 7 **considered a level that maximizes the net** 

### 8 **present value. And finally, the level that** 

### 9 **maximizes the energy savings, which also** 

### 10 **happens to be the maximum energy savings with** 

### 11 **a positive NPV.** 

### 12 **For envelope components, that is** 

### 13 **panels, display doors, and non-display doors,** 

### 14 **we considered a level that picked the** 

### 15 **efficiency levels that got you the maximum** 

### 16 **energy savings with positive NPV for display** 

### 17 **doors and kept panels and non-display doors** 

### 18 **at the current baseline. That is, no** 

### 19 **standards for this. And this was directly in** 

### 20 **response to comments that the panel and non** 

### 21 **display door industry was made up of a large** 

### 22 **number of small business manufacturers. So,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 359**  **1 we did consider a level to minimize those**  

### 2 **impacts.** 

### 3 **Another level, again, a level that** 

### 4 **maximizes the net present value, a level that** 

### 5 **maximizes the energy savings but maintains a** 

### 6 **positive net present value and, finally, max** 

### 7 **tech, level with maximum energy savings.** 

### 8 **So there is three criteria for** 

### 9 **refrigeration systems, four for envelopes,** 

### 10 **that is 12 total. And out of those we picked** 

### 11 **six that, again, represented the range and** 

### 12 **ordered the composite TSLs one to six by the** 

### 13 **overall energy savings for that combination** 

### 14 **of efficiency levels.** 

### 15 **So, I am going to actually go to the** 

### 16 **next slide before taking questions because** 

### 17 **that hopefully illustrates this. Again, here** 

### 18 **is the matrix of -- hopefully you can all see** 

### 19 **that -- refrigeration system criteria, and** 

### 20 **envelope component criteria and the** 

### 21 **combinations that we chose as potential trial** 

### 22 **standard levels. And the one in red, TSL 4,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 360**  **1 is the one that we are proposing as the**  

### 2 **proposed standard that maximizes NPV but we** 

### 3 **are considering all of these.** 

### 4 **Does anyone have any questions on** 

### 5 **this? I know it is a little complicated.** 

### 6 **Okay, so I will move on to the next** 

### 7 **slide because this is getting back to what** 

### 8 **this means for you, the manufacturer or you,** 

### 9 **the consumer, the level -- trying to match** 

### 10 **the level to what we think the design options** 

### 11 **would be. And this is just an example table** 

### 12 **for panels. The different classes of panels.** 

### 13 **There is structural panels, medium** 

### 14 **temperature, structural panels, low** 

### 15 **temperature, and freezer floor panels.** 

### 16 **Again, the rest of the -- we have** 

### 17 **tables for each type of component and that is** 

### 18 **in Appendix 10(D). So please take a look at** 

### 19 **those.** 

### 20 **One thing to notice here is that for** 

### 21 **any given component, going from one TSL to** 

### 22 **the next is not necessarily going to be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 361**  **1 increasing linearly. And again, this is**  

### 2 **because, as we saw, there are different** 

### 3 **combinations and some of them are more** 

### 4 **stringent for refrigeration. Some are more** 

### 5 **stringent for envelopes. So really, you have** 

### 6 **several combinations there.** 

### 7 **So, summarizing the proposed** 

### 8 **standards, recapping the metrics. Again,** 

### 9 **these follow from the test procedure and we** 

### 10 **discussed the metrics a little earlier in** 

### 11 **this presentation. For refrigeration** 

### 12 **systems, it is the minimum AWEF, which is** 

### 13 **basically measure of system efficiency. For** 

### 14 **panels, it is maximum U-factor, where U** 

### 15 **factor is basically a measure of panel** 

### 16 **conductivity. And for doors it is maximum** 

### 17 **daily energy use, which accounts for the** 

### 18 **energy used by a theoretical refrigeration** 

### 19 **system to remove the heat from the** 

### 20 **refrigeration system that is contributed by** 

### 21 **or through the door, added to any electrical** 

### 22 **components of the door.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 362**  **1 And realizing that different sizes**  

### 2 **of equipment or different characteristics of** 

### 3 **equipment may affect their ability to meet a** 

### 4 **certain standard, we expressed the proposed** 

### 5 **standards as equations. And I know the issue** 

### 6 **box is here but I am actually going to show** 

### 7 **some examples before asking for comment just** 

### 8 **to be able to visualize this.** 

### 9 **So for refrigeration systems, this** 

### 10 **is TSL 4. These are the proposed standards** 

### 11 **for the different classes of refrigeration** 

### 12 **systems. We have the equations for all the** 

### 13 **TSLs in the NOPR. So, please take a look.** 

### 14 **The thing to note here is that at** 

### 15 **least for each dedicated condensing class, it** 

### 16 **is a linear equation up to a certain capacity** 

### 17 **and then it levels off. So this is what it** 

### 18 **would look like for a dedicated condensing** 

### 19 **low temperature outdoor system at TSL 4 up to** 

### 20 **that threshold level of 9,000 BTUs per hour,** 

### 21 **which we are proposing is the cut-off point** 

### 22 **between small and large. And you may or may**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 363**  **1 not agree with that. And please comment to**  

### 2 **that effect in your written comments.** 

### 3 **So you go up to a certain AWEF based** 

### 4 **on your capacity. And then it levels off at** 

### 5 **the larger capacities.** 

### 6 **For panels, these are, again, the** 

### 7 **proposed standards at TSL 4. And these are** 

### 8 **quadratic equations and they are based on the** 

### 9 **ratio of edge to core area. And you can** 

### 10 **calculate this out of the test procedure.** 

### 11 **But the reason we did this is** 

### 12 **because DOE recognizes that panels are** 

### 13 **different shapes. Panels, may have different** 

### 14 **edge to core ratios, depending on the shapes.** 

### 15 **They didn't want to penalize a panel. Like** 

### 16 **say you need a panel to fit in a certain** 

### 17 **space. They didn't want to penalize you** 

### 18 **based on the shape of your panel. So, here** 

### 19 **you can see that -- say you are at the end of** 

### 20 **the walk-in and you have to build a long** 

### 21 **skinny panel and you are going to have a high** 

### 22 **frame-to-foam ratio. Well, the frame, say**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 364**  **1 you have a wood frame. And I know we have**  

### 2 **been talking about this but bear with me.** 

### 3 **Say you have a wood frame. You are not going** 

### 4 **to be able to meet a standard that is based** 

### 5 **on a panel made entirely out of foam or a** 

### 6 **panel with a lower, say a square panel with a** 

### 7 **low frame-to-foam ratio. So it is based on** 

### 8 **the ratio and this just illustrates that.** 

### 9 **And in the larger sizes, like say 32** 

### 10 **square feet, eight by four, it really doesn't** 

### 11 **make that much of a difference, the frame-to** 

### 12 **foam ratio. So, it levels off down there.** 

### 13 **The next two are going to be for** 

### 14 **doors. And this is all doors, passage doors,** 

### 15 **freight doors, display doors. And these are** 

### 16 **just based on the area of the door. And here** 

### 17 **is how they are graphed. At TSL 4, the** 

### 18 **larger the area, the more energy use** 

### 19 **allowance you get. The same for display** 

### 20 **doors.** 

### 21 **And so I am going to stop now and** 

### 22 **ask for questions on any aspect of those,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 365**  **1 particularly, let's go back to the question,**  

### 2 **comment on the TSL equations. And we are** 

### 3 **asking for data or comment on how the energy** 

### 4 **efficiency or energy consumption of the** 

### 5 **equipment would vary with size or capacity.** 

### 6 **MR. SENTER: Guy Senter here. Let's** 

### 7 **start with refrigeration.** 

### 8 **MS. LEGETT: Yes.** 

### 9 **MR. SENTER: I see you have used** 

### 10 **those formulas there, the top two and then** 

### 11 **the fourth one. They equal max tech?** 

### 12 **MS. LEGETT: Let's see. On the top** 

### 13 **two -- equal max tech. I think so but we** 

### 14 **will have to look that up.** 

### 15 **MR. SENTER: Yes, okay. They equal** 

### 16 **max tech. Okay?** 

### 17 **MS. LEGETT: Yes, okay.** 

### 18 **MR. SENTER: I'm a little curious if** 

### 19 **like you guys have got any build-in fudge** 

### 20 **factor. This is federal regulation, not --** 

### 21 **if this was law you are going to force us to** 

### 22 **make these machines.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 366**  **1 MS. LEGETT: So I will say that this**  

### 2 **is a performance standard and not a** 

### 3 **prescriptive standard. So, you don't have to** 

### 4 **use the exact technologies that we analyzed** 

### 5 **in max tech.** 

### 6 **That said, what we are saying is** 

### 7 **that yes, we are proposing a level that,** 

### 8 **under our analysis, you would have to use all** 

### 9 **the technologies considered, in order to meet** 

### 10 **that standard. And if that is not feasible,** 

### 11 **we would ask for data and like a reason why** 

### 12 **that would be, or which technologies are not** 

### 13 **cost-effective, for instance.** 

### 14 **MR. SENTER: Okay, turning over to** 

### 15 **the panels. Just as a mathematical deal,** 

### 16 **taking the edge over the core seems like a** 

### 17 **little inappropriate, I guess. Like for** 

### 18 **instance, we have panels that are seven and** 

### 19 **five-eighths wide. We don't have wood, so a** 

### 20 **previous federal regulation says we have a** 

### 21 **four-inch width on both sides. So, now we** 

### 22 **have got all edge and it can be any U-factor**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 367**  **1 or we cannot calculate it.**  

### 2 **So, perhaps a better metric would be** 

### 3 **area edge over area total and you could redo** 

### 4 **your calculations, your formula on that** 

### 5 **because you just got -- it doesn't look** 

### 6 **mathematically stable, especially when you** 

### 7 **square it.** 

### 8 **MS. LEGETT: Okay. Well, okay,** 

### 9 **thanks. Thanks for your comment.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So those** 

### 11 **comments are in writing. Right?** 

### 12 **MR. SENTER: Yes.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, Harmon.** 

### 14 **MR. LEWIS: Rebecca, could you** 

### 15 **explain this chart higher frame-to-foam ratio** 

### 16 **means they can have a higher U-value?** 

### 17 **MS. LEGETT: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. LEWIS: Why?** 

### 19 **MS. LEGETT: Because the assumption** 

### 20 **was that the frame of a panel would be** 

### 21 **naturally more conductive than the interior** 

### 22 **foam part. And it should really say edge to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 368**  **1 center, like area of the edge versus area of**  

### 2 **the center of the panel. There is a way in** 

### 3 **the test procedure to calculate exactly what** 

### 4 **those areas are. Again, that was our** 

### 5 **assumption that the edge area would have a** 

### 6 **higher conductivity than the center. That** 

### 7 **may or may not be correct.** 

### 8 **MR. LEWIS: No.** 

### 9 **MS. LEGETT: It's not?** 

### 10 **MR. LEWIS: It would be very correct** 

### 11 **in a panel that is one-foot wide and eight** 

### 12 **feet high, that edge perimeter frame means** 

### 13 **either hard rail or wood is 31.6 percent of** 

### 14 **that panel. It is going to have an R-value** 

### 15 **of 12, 8, 14. And I don't think you are** 

### 16 **penalizing them far enough for what is really** 

### 17 **happening.** 

### 18 **MS. LEGETT: In what sense are we** 

### 19 **not penalizing them?** 

### 20 **MR. LEWIS: The overall R-value of** 

### 21 **that whole panel.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What should**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 369**  **1 it be, Harmon?**  

### 2 **MS. LEGETT: Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. LEWIS: Well, it should be, as** 

### 4 **Guy mentioned, you ought to do the** 

### 5 **mathematics of the percentage of the panel** 

### 6 **that has the R-value of 32 and the percentage** 

### 7 **of the panel that has an R-value of wood of** 

### 8 **eight or what high density of urethane of 12,** 

### 9 **13, whatever they can test it out at.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: If I heard** 

### 11 **Guy correctly, he said the area of edge over** 

### 12 **the area of the total.** 

### 13 **MR. LEWIS: Right and that is what** 

### 14 **I'm saying. That you would take the** 

### 15 **percentage of the panel that has R-value 32** 

### 16 **material and the percentage of the panel that** 

### 17 **has whatever other R-value and you add those** 

### 18 **two together to get what the 100 percent** 

### 19 **composite panel has. And that panel would** 

### 20 **need to again comply with R-32 or R-25, which** 

### 21 **may mean it may need to be six inches thick,** 

### 22 **if you have too much rail.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 370**  **1 MS. LEGETT: But the EISA standard**  

### 2 **for R-value excludes structural members, if I** 

### 3 **recall.** 

### 4 **MR. LEWIS: Right, but they don't** 

### 5 **have to have a structural member there if you** 

### 6 **do the same thing with soft foam. And you** 

### 7 **are losing all that energy savings. You are** 

### 8 **using up all that foreign oil. They don't** 

### 9 **need it for structural. They are doing it** 

### 10 **because that is how they manufacture. So** 

### 11 **there is tremendous energy savings there that** 

### 12 **you are not reaping.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank** 

### 14 **you. Ellis.** 

### 15 **MR. CRAIG: I think if one of the** 

### 16 **test procedures, if I remember right, there** 

### 17 **is a specific size of a panel that is tested.** 

### 18 **And then that is where they come up with that** 

### 19 **formula. So, it is not like they are** 

### 20 **checking little panels versus big panels.** 

### 21 **They have a specific size that is in that** 

### 22 **test that we can't get done. And no one**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 371**  **1 does. But it is like a two-foot by two-foot**  

### 2 **sample and you have to run three of them.** 

### 3 **And then you test a core and it goes through** 

### 4 **that process. So, it kind of eliminates the** 

### 5 **idea of this ratio of center to edge. At** 

### 6 **least that is what it looks like on that.** 

### 7 **But Harmon is right that if you have a panel,** 

### 8 **it has got soft foam all the way to the edge.** 

### 9 **It is going to have the same R-value,** 

### 10 **theoretically, at the edge as it would in the** 

### 11 **center because it is the same foam.** 

### 12 **So, there are different ways of** 

### 13 **manufacturing panels and there are. So, we** 

### 14 **will just see how this plays out.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks.** 

### 16 **MS. LEGETT: So if you could** 

### 17 **recommend how we would change this, that** 

### 18 **would be helpful for us.** 

### 19 **MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.** 

### 20 **What I ask in making your comments, is that** 

### 21 **you go back and review what we previously** 

### 22 **discussed in the test procedure rulemaking.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 372**  **1 I think we, at length, discussed our**  

### 2 **interpretation of the structural members and** 

### 3 **how that should be accounted for in looking** 

### 4 **at the R-value or the U-value. And what we** 

### 5 **decided there is that everything except for** 

### 6 **the metal facers, the metal skin, should not** 

### 7 **be included.** 

### 8 **Now, if there is a reason for us to** 

### 9 **reconsider that, we would, of course, want to** 

### 10 **hear that. And of course, there is** 

### 11 **rulemaking. But I think that would have some** 

### 12 **bearing on coming to the results that you are** 

### 13 **talking about, Harmon, in trying to figure** 

### 14 **that out.** 

### 15 **So, I think that looking at what we** 

### 16 **said before in rulemaking regarding this to** 

### 17 **help you inform your comments and help us** 

### 18 **figure out where we need to go to best** 

### 19 **accommodate what you think would work for the** 

### 20 **industry.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's good.** 

### 22 **Thank you. Guy?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 373**  **1 MR. SENTER: Does the scope of this**  

### 2 **NOPR include the actual testing or is that** 

### 3 **coming up later?** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael Kido.** 

### 5 **MR. KIDO: This particular proposal** 

### 6 **focuses squarely on the standards, not the** 

### 7 **testing. However, if you have comments on** 

### 8 **the testing itself, any particular aspects,** 

### 9 **any particular technical issues, we will** 

### 10 **definitely consider that.** 

### 11 **MR. SENTER: Okay, because there is** 

### 12 **a lot in the NOPR and like the various sizes,** 

### 13 **small, medium, and large, leads me to imagine** 

### 14 **that you wish to test three different sizes** 

### 15 **and get perhaps a curve. You know and I** 

### 16 **don't know if you guys are going to test** 

### 17 **three or however many panels, using your** 

### 18 **formula and come up with any three failure,** 

### 19 **model fails or oh, we have got this curve** 

### 20 **here and you cannot make a panel that is** 

### 21 **under 11 inches wide or something like that.** 

### 22 **I am really curious about how this is going**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 374**  **1 to play out as far as the bottom line.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Actually, we** 

### 3 **are about to get to the Department's** 

### 4 **description of the bottom line.** 

### 5 **Rebecca, did you cover doors?** 

### 6 **MS. LEGETT: Yes.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You did.** 

### 8 **Okay, I just wanted to make sure.** 

### 9 **Let's get to -- let's go through the** 

### 10 **remaining slides.** 

### 11 **MS. LEGETT: That is pretty much it.** 

### 12 **This is the summary of the proposed rule** 

### 13 **impacts. And this is all those -- I mean** 

### 14 **this is just a recap of all the analyses that** 

### 15 **we have already been discussing. So I am not** 

### 16 **going to go through this in too much detail.** 

### 17 **Again, these are all there in the NOPR.** 

### 18 **I mean the last slide is seeking** 

### 19 **comment on the appropriateness of choosing** 

### 20 **TSL 4. We selected TSL 4 -- DOE is proposing** 

### 21 **TSL 4 from the range of TSLs that it** 

### 22 **considered. That said, it will consider**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 375**  **1 other possibilities, as well. I believe**  

### 2 **someone mentioned a TSL 4.5. So if you have** 

### 3 **alternatives that DOE should consider, please** 

### 4 **submit those as comments.** 

### 5 **I did want to make a note. Someone** 

### 6 **mentioned about submitting confidential** 

### 7 **business information. Section 7(d) of the** 

### 8 **NOPR has details about how do to that. And I** 

### 9 **would urge you to read that carefully before** 

### 10 **doing anything.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 12 **Ellis. Now we have an opportunity for** 

### 13 **closing remarks. Anybody that wishes to make** 

### 14 **concluding remarks, cover additional or** 

### 15 **issues that have not been covered completely** 

### 16 **today. Ellis.** 

### 17 **MR. CRAIG: I appreciate the effort** 

### 18 **the DOE is trying to work with us to try and** 

### 19 **get this thing worked out. It does mean a** 

### 20 **lot to us and it affects our business a lot.** 

### 21 **So we are patient and emotional about it.** 

### 22 **I had one question before a final**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 376**  **1 remark. Am I understanding that the test**  

### 2 **procedure is still under -- I thought it was** 

### 3 **settled.** 

### 4 **MR. KIDO: It is settled but to the** 

### 5 **extent that anyone has particular issues that** 

### 6 **they want to let us know about, I mean, we** 

### 7 **will consider them. But it is just that we** 

### 8 **don't have an open rulemaking to create any** 

### 9 **amendments at this point for the test** 

### 10 **procedure.** 

### 11 **MR. CRAIG: That is kind of what our** 

### 12 **understanding was. But again, I think there** 

### 13 **are -- I have concerns about TSL 4 for the** 

### 14 **benefit and TSL 2 would be sufficient. It** 

### 15 **seems like we are operating under it right** 

### 16 **now and it would be very little impact in the** 

### 17 **industry but still give us a lot of -- we** 

### 18 **have already gained a lot of performance** 

### 19 **capability from what we have already done.** 

### 20 **And that is a point that I would like to see** 

### 21 **it considered and I will put it in my** 

### 22 **documentation as we have sent it.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 377**  **1 But again, we have worked with a lot**  

### 2 **of people and I appreciate the time and** 

### 3 **effort you guys put forward. I know we don't** 

### 4 **see it all but we have these blank periods** 

### 5 **where everything disappears for about a year** 

### 6 **or two and then all of a sudden it comes back** 

### 7 **up and we are wondering what happened to** 

### 8 **that. You know, I thought the whole thing** 

### 9 **was over.** 

### 10 **But anyway, thank you very much. I** 

### 11 **appreciate it.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Mike.** 

### 13 **MR. STRAUB: I have two items. One,** 

### 14 **where we had asked about the model and the** 

### 15 **data set for the analysis and you just ask if** 

### 16 **we could get some commitment on timing so** 

### 17 **that we will have an opportunity to do that** 

### 18 **analysis before we finish our comments.** 

### 19 **And then just a point of** 

### 20 **clarification when Robert Wilkins was asked** 

### 21 **about condensing unit only manufacturers and,** 

### 22 **based on the ruling, that if we didn't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 378**  **1 bifurcate, that they could no longer produce**  

### 2 **condensing units. That was complete news to** 

### 3 **me that that was the intent of the ruling.** 

### 4 **So, can anybody clarify that? So if** 

### 5 **you are not a systems manufacturer, you can't** 

### 6 **continue to produce components.** 

### 7 **MR. RAWALD: I'm not certain I** 

### 8 **understood the remark to say that. I thought** 

### 9 **he was saying that his business could no** 

### 10 **longer do that.** 

### 11 **MR. STRAUB: Correct. So if he is** 

### 12 **only manufacturing condensing units and this** 

### 13 **is a system only --** 

### 14 **MR. RAWALD: Right. I thought that** 

### 15 **he was approaching it from a financial point** 

### 16 **of view. I didn't think that he was talking** 

### 17 **about what we were regulating out of** 

### 18 **business. That is not anything that we are** 

### 19 **under discussion at the moment.** 

### 20 **MR. STRAUB: Okay.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That was** 

### 22 **Doug. Thank you, Doug.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 379**  **1 Yes, Guy?**  

### 2 **MR. SENTER: Yes, Guy. One more** 

### 3 **thing. Thank you very much. Two or three** 

### 4 **years ago, it looked like you guys were** 

### 5 **grappling with an impossible task and it** 

### 6 **seems like you are making a lot of progress.** 

### 7 **I had thought about the doors. You** 

### 8 **know a lot of things happen in a door that** 

### 9 **are independent. It is the HMI, the human** 

### 10 **machine interface. People want a window,** 

### 11 **maybe for security or safety reasons. And of** 

### 12 **course you are trying to eliminate the** 

### 13 **condensation because you have got to open the** 

### 14 **door. And I am wondering, maybe you need to** 

### 15 **componentize that. Because if a customer** 

### 16 **asks for a door or doesn't, it should not --** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: A window.** 

### 18 **MR. SENTER: A window, yes -- it** 

### 19 **should not impact my heater core** 

### 20 **calculations. And if someone wishes to put a** 

### 21 **control system on there that uses** 

### 22 **electricity, et cetera, that should not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 380**  **1 impact the rest of it. And we really don't**  

### 2 **want to have to start putting windows in the** 

### 3 **panel beside the door so that we can sell** 

### 4 **them or whatever.** 

### 5 **So, I am thinking that perhaps that** 

### 6 **would be a better solution is to get to the** 

### 7 **periphery, look at the heater core draw. If** 

### 8 **you have prescriptive -- if you don't want** 

### 9 **heated windows in coolers, why not prescribe** 

### 10 **it? Or if you have specific goals for the** 

### 11 **windows in a door, why not specify that** 

### 12 **separately?** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, Buzz.** 

### 14 **MR. SCHAEFFER: Buzz Schaeffer, from** 

### 15 **Hussmann.** 

### 16 **I just have a couple of** 

### 17 **clarification questions, if I may, so we can** 

### 18 **take away the proper information.** 

### 19 **Scenario: I am selling unit coolers** 

### 20 **to a customer. He is buying refrigeration** 

### 21 **from someone else. And someone else is** 

### 22 **providing the box panel. I have to maintain**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 381**  **1 the AW for multiplex systems. Is that**  

### 2 **correct? I need to know what criteria** 

### 3 **underneath that scenario I have to maintain.** 

### 4 **And then I have three other scenarios.** 

### 5 **MS. LEGETT: I don't think I can** 

### 6 **speak to how DOE will certify systems like** 

### 7 **that.** 

### 8 **MR. SCHAEFFER: Pardon me?** 

### 9 **MS. LEGETT: I don't think I can** 

### 10 **speak to how DOE will certify that type of** 

### 11 **system.** 

### 12 **So you are saying you are selling a** 

### 13 **unit cooler and someone else is going to be** 

### 14 **selling a dedicated condensing unit just for** 

### 15 **that unit cooler?** 

### 16 **MR. SCHAEFFER: I don't know what he** 

### 17 **is selling.** 

### 18 **MS. LEGETT: Okay, fair enough.** 

### 19 **MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.** 

### 20 **So, the way the regulations are currently set** 

### 21 **up is that the manufacturer of the completed** 

### 22 **refrigeration system is responsible for that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 382**  **1 system. That is the way the certification**  

### 2 **regulations are. So, the person that** 

### 3 **combines the elements together, puts them** 

### 4 **together and then moves that product into the** 

### 5 **box, that is the person responsible for** 

### 6 **making sure that it complies with the** 

### 7 **standards as written.** 

### 8 **Now, I have heard a lot of comments** 

### 9 **today that we should consider breaking that** 

### 10 **down into smaller pieces. And so we are** 

### 11 **willing to consider those comments and we** 

### 12 **hope that you folks will give us better** 

### 13 **clarity about what the right thing to do in** 

### 14 **your opinion would be. So, I can't answer** 

### 15 **your question definitively about what we will** 

### 16 **do, but what we currently do is we require** 

### 17 **the manufacturer of the complete system to** 

### 18 **be the one responsible for how the system** 

### 19 **performs.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Excuse me.** 

### 21 **MR. SCHAEFFER: So you are saying** 

### 22 **that the installing contractor is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 383**  **1 responsible, then?**  

### 2 **MR. RAWALD: Under the way the** 

### 3 **current regulations are written, the person** 

### 4 **that puts Part A and Part B together to make** 

### 5 **the refrigeration system is the person** 

### 6 **responsible for the performance of the** 

### 7 **refrigeration system, yes.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis.** 

### 9 **MR. CRAIG: Just to make sure that** 

### 10 **doesn't let us off the hook, it is not the** 

### 11 **guy you are selecting. If you still** 

### 12 **manufacture a walk-in you are responsible for** 

### 13 **the walk-in panels. If somebody else is** 

### 14 **doing refrigeration, they are still** 

### 15 **responsible for meeting the criteria on the** 

### 16 **refrigeration unit, say of a condensing unit** 

### 17 **or of a system, I guess you would say.** 

### 18 **So and then the guy is also** 

### 19 **included, the guy that put the two together** 

### 20 **and said I am the manufacturer. Am I right?** 

### 21 **MR. RAWALD: That is correct, yes.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: John.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 384**  **1 MR. McHUGH: So, I think we have**  

### 2 **heard - unlike other times, I think we have** 

### 3 **actually heard some consensus that there is a** 

### 4 **problem with the current test method, that** 

### 5 **AHRI 1250 actually does create this joining** 

### 6 **at the hip of the indoor unit and the** 

### 7 **dedicated condensing unit.** 

### 8 **And I would recommend that DOE** 

### 9 **actually revisit the test method because** 

### 10 **this, to me, is going to cause a -- one is** 

### 11 **less reliability that you have gone through** 

### 12 **all this brain damage of writing a standard.** 

### 13 **And there is really not a very viable** 

### 14 **enforcement mechanism. And I think we would** 

### 15 **rather be in a place where there is actually** 

### 16 **clarity to the market about what you can** 

### 17 **legally sell and say yes, this unit cooler** 

### 18 **complies. And you already have this model** 

### 19 **for CRE that works this way.** 

### 20 **What would be expanded is actually a** 

### 21 **separate test method and a separate standard** 

### 22 **for condensing units. So, you would have a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 385**  **1 condensing unit standard. You would have a**  

### 2 **unit cooler standard. Someone who is selling** 

### 3 **unit coolers would say here is what is in the** 

### 4 **catalogue. Anyone who buys it is buying a** 

### 5 **legal unit cooler. It actually reduces by at** 

### 6 **least two orders of magnitude, the number of** 

### 7 **‘‘manufacturers’’ that are involved that you** 

### 8 **potentially are supposed to be enforcing.** 

### 9 **Because otherwise, what is the process of** 

### 10 **actually having any sort of enforcement for** 

### 11 **tens of thousands of contractors?** 

### 12 **And not only that, you know these** 

### 13 **are some really smart people here who design** 

### 14 **and build this equipment. It is very** 

### 15 **complex. And you know I have got lots of** 

### 16 **respect for folks that are mechanical** 

### 17 **contractors. But you know, they have** 

### 18 **actually got to actually build the thing and** 

### 19 **their primary focus is not as much** 

### 20 **calculations, et cetera, and have the same** 

### 21 **level of technical expertise as the folks who** 

### 22 **are the manufacturers.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 386**  **1 So, I know that you originally there**  

### 2 **was some legislation that was probably not** 

### 3 **written in the best format. But to the** 

### 4 **extent that you have already accepted the** 

### 5 **concept of the component performance** 

### 6 **approach, this next step would actually, I** 

### 7 **think, significantly increase the real** 

### 8 **savings, not the paper savings, but the real** 

### 9 **savings of actually having something** 

### 10 **enforceable.** 

### 11 **And so now that is kind of the big** 

### 12 **picture. And then just on the kind of more** 

### 13 **detailed discussion, during the break I** 

### 14 **contacted one of our consultants who does** 

### 15 **design work for many of the large supermarket** 

### 16 **chains. And I asked him the whole question** 

### 17 **about a three-year door life. And he said** 

### 18 **for display doors, they are typically -- they** 

### 19 **go through at least one remodel cycle where** 

### 20 **the door is not replaced. And those remodel** 

### 21 **cycles are about six years. So he saying** 

### 22 **typical life is 12 years for doors.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 387**  **1 MR. LEWIS: Now, that is the display**  

### 2 **doors.** 

### 3 **MR. McHUGH: So, now that is the** 

### 4 **display doors. Right. Exactly.** 

### 5 **So, and going back to display doors,** 

### 6 **we use low-e films. Basically, they are the** 

### 7 **basis for the building efficiency standards.** 

### 8 **And you have got lower delta Ts and that** 

### 9 **technology is the basis of that standard.** 

### 10 **So, I would be really surprised that low-e** 

### 11 **films is not cost-effective for display** 

### 12 **doors. And we will also be providing some** 

### 13 **additional comments about the cost** 

### 14 **effectiveness of occupancy sensing. Many of** 

### 15 **the -- you know, it is one of those things** 

### 16 **where you look at automobiles. You know** 

### 17 **there is all sorts of technologies that are** 

### 18 **in race cars and then they are in luxury** 

### 19 **cars. And then they make it into your little** 

### 20 **Honda Accord or whatever.** 

### 21 **So, the same thing is true, I think** 

### 22 **of the occupancy sensors. Almost all of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 388**  **1 major supermarket chains have been using**  

### 2 **them. Everyone has been experimenting with** 

### 3 **different things. So, this is a significant** 

### 4 **fractional market that is already using that.** 

### 5 **And my expectation is by 2017 the cost and** 

### 6 **the availability of that product is available** 

### 7 **for any size system.** 

### 8 **So, but we will have more comments** 

### 9 **about that later.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 11 **MR. McHUGH: Thank you very much.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Buzz.** 

### 13 **MR. SCHAEFFER: Yes, this is in** 

### 14 **relationship to your question for feedback on** 

### 15 **the equations. Just at a high level, the** 

### 16 **AWEFs, per se, for like a multiplex system.** 

### 17 **MS. LEGETT: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. SCHAEFFER: I don't know if you** 

### 19 **want to pull that up, 10.75, 5.53. If you go** 

### 20 **to the dedicated condensing unit section,** 

### 21 **especially when you get above 9,000 BTUs an** 

### 22 **hour, you actually end up with a higher AWEF**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 389**  **1 for the dedicated condensing unit, which**  

### 2 **doesn't pass the test of reasonableness.** 

### 3 **There has been multiple, multiple** 

### 4 **studies that have proven that a multiplex** 

### 5 **system hooked up to evaporators, uses less** 

### 6 **energy than a single compressor unit.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael Kido.** 

### 8 **MR. KIDO: If you could sort of** 

### 9 **elaborate on that particular issue in your** 

### 10 **written comments and maybe cite to the** 

### 11 **particular studies that you are referring to,** 

### 12 **I think that would be pretty helpful for the** 

### 13 **technical team.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 15 **MR. McHUGH: So, I just have a** 

### 16 **comment to that. My understanding is that** 

### 17 **the EERs for AHRI 1200, I mean that is** 

### 18 **basically where we lifted the calculation** 

### 19 **method for the multiplex. My understanding** 

### 20 **is that they have looked at the latest** 

### 21 **technology for dedicated condensing units;** 

### 22 **whereas, for the multiplex system, we use the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 390**  **1 old numbers. I don't think those numbers**  

### 2 **have been updated in terms of what is the** 

### 3 **latest technology for a multiplex system in** 

### 4 **terms of its EER.** 

### 5 **But it almost really doesn't matter** 

### 6 **because it is just sort of a normalizing** 

### 7 **factor for the unit cooler.** 

### 8 **MR. SCHAEFFER: That would make the** 

### 9 **AWEF in a multiplex system even lower, which** 

### 10 **would make the discrepancy worse.** 

### 11 **MR. McHUGH: I thought what you were** 

### 12 **saying is that the multiplex system has a** 

### 13 **lower AWEF than for the -- isn't that what** 

### 14 **your comment was?** 

### 15 **MR. SCHAEFFER: Yes, what the** 

### 16 **comment is is that on a BTU per watt basis,** 

### 17 **the dedicated system has to have a higher** 

### 18 **energy efficiency than the multiplex.** 

### 19 **MR. McHUGH: Yes, so the issue is** 

### 20 **this, is that the values that were used to** 

### 21 **generate the AWEF, they are values for an old** 

### 22 **multiplex system. So, if you actually used a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 391**  **1 newer multiplex system, then you would have**  

### 2 **higher AWEFs and you would reduce the** 

### 3 **discrepancy. In fact, maybe even flip it.** 

### 4 **MR. SCHAEFFER: Possibly.** 

### 5 **MR. McHUGH: I was just involved in** 

### 6 **that process. So, I think that is the** 

### 7 **explanation.** 

### 8 **MS. LEGETT: Yes, that is absolutely** 

### 9 **right. The multiplex systems are rated by** 

### 10 **assuming a certain EER of the multiplex. The** 

### 11 **unit coolers in this table are rated by** 

### 12 **assuming that they are connected to a** 

### 13 **multiplex condensing system of a certain EER.** 

### 14 **And that EER is fixed by the test procedure.** 

### 15 **So, we can't really control that.** 

### 16 **MR. McHUGH: And I don't think --** 

### 17 **AHRI might be able to comment, but I don't** 

### 18 **think that the EERs were updated in a number** 

### 19 **of years.** 

### 20 **MR. LEMMOND: The standard is due to** 

### 21 **be --** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Use the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 392**  **1 microphone. Jon.**  

### 2 **MR. LEMMOND: The year on the latest** 

### 3 **applicable standard is 2009. So it is due** 

### 4 **for an update.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional** 

### 6 **comments here? Perhaps final comments.** 

### 7 **Harmon.** 

### 8 **MR. LEWIS: Just a quick question.** 

### 9 **As we go through the reams of charts and** 

### 10 **tables, who is a contact name and phone** 

### 11 **number that we could ask questions to help us** 

### 12 **understand part of that process? Is that** 

### 13 **people with Navigant, DOE? How would you** 

### 14 **like that handled or who can help us?** 

### 15 **MR. LLENZA: Charlie Llenza,** 

### 16 **Department of Energy. Feel free to contact** 

### 17 **me and then I can point you to the right** 

### 18 **person who has the specialty.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Via email,** 

### 20 **via telephone?** 

### 21 **MR. LLENZA: Via email. I prefer** 

### 22 **email.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 393**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. LLENZA: It is easier and you** 

### 3 **can go into the mailbox for the rulemaking at** 

### 4 **the website and just send an email through** 

### 5 **that. I check that daily.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. I** 

### 7 **think we have finished with the slides. Why** 

### 8 **don't you advance?** 

### 9 **As we promised an opportunity to** 

### 10 **make closing remarks, say anything that** 

### 11 **hasn't been said sufficiently during the day** 

### 12 **today. Jon? No.** 

### 13 **Any other remarks? Harmon.** 

### 14 **MR. LEWIS: Just a real quick one** 

### 15 **because I haven't had a chance to say that we** 

### 16 **also appreciate what you all have been doing.** 

### 17 **We know it is a monster task. You have got** 

### 18 **to remember that it is personal to those of** 

### 19 **us that employ people and know their** 

### 20 **families, et cetera, that we are very** 

### 21 **concerned. But also the rules that are done,** 

### 22 **we comply with, even to the point that we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 394**  **1 don't even look for loopholes. That is why**  

### 2 **we are just so interested in getting it** 

### 3 **right.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, so for** 

### 5 **my part, I will thank all of you. I thought** 

### 6 **we had a very productive meeting today. And** 

### 7 **I encourage you to follow through with your** 

### 8 **excellent comments, as you did during the** 

### 9 **day. And I wish you safe travels.** 

### 10 **Then, I will turn it back to Charles** 

### 11 **Llenza for closing remarks.** 

### 12 **MR. LLENZA: Yes, I just wanted to** 

### 13 **thank everybody for your patience. It has** 

### 14 **been a long proceeding today.** 

### 15 **I know that we have a lot of work** 

### 16 **still ahead of us. But I also want to make** 

### 17 **sure that I encourage you guys to provide** 

### 18 **comments to the Department in written form** 

### 19 **and I just want to remind you that we have a** 

### 20 **format for that. And there is an email link** 

### 21 **that you should make ample use to send your** 

### 22 **comments in.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 395**  **1 Thank you for attending today, on**  

### 2 **behalf of the Department.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 4 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 5 **matter went off the record at 4:42 p.m.)** 

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362:20 388:21 9:00 1:11 9:044:2 90 3:5 96,000 119:17NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 446

Energy Conservation Standards for Walk-In Coolers and Freezers

US DOE

10-09-13

Washington, DC