Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access

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U.S. Access Board Thursday, January 9, 2013 Washington, DC Afternoon Session

- meeting to resume 1:30 p.m.

>> This is a operator, what did you mean by update the list? >> Delete all of the disconnected lines so that I don't see them.
>> Sure. O ne moment. >> I see Linda Martin is back on the line unmute her to full

- time talk, thank you. L inda this is Rosemarie U.S. Access Board, we are filing back in from lunch, it will be a few minutes.
>> Okay, thanks.

>> BILLY ALTOM: I hope everyone enjoyed their lunch. I f we could gather back together we will reconvene in just a matter of minutes, give folks a chance to get here.(Discussion off record.)

>> BILLY ALTOM: Well, I think it's that time again we are going to reconvene. B efore we get started with the first presentation after lunch, I want to check with the folks on the phone. A nd see if there were any questions that we might have missed in our previous discussions. A ny comments from those of you out there on the phone? >> Not from me

. L inda Martin. >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you, Linda. > > Rosemarie Bunales: Linda is the only one I have on the call right now. >> BILLY ALTOM: Okay. W hat we may do then we realize all of our participants are back on the phone I may ask them a question I may have missed someone earlier I don't want to leave anyone out. W hat we are going it do right now is kickback in the afternoon session we have three more presentations to go through first up the International Centre for Accessible Transportation. >> Thank you very much, Billy. I would like to show you this solution that we developed for

-- better sit down here. We developed for VIA rail coach cars, we tried to integrate all of the elements that make it possible from the entrance of the
ca r to the wheelchair position. A nd for those of you who don't know VR rail for Canada is what Amtrak is for the U.S.it's the major passenger rail car operator. Actually, Amtrak

and VIA cooperate in some way on the west coast from Vancouver to Seattle on the east coast from Montreal to New York on the transporter lines. T he features that you will see here were implemented to the VIA cars about two years ago. T hey are in service right now. Sorry. T his one. >> BILLY ALTOM: The control underneath it. >> Uwe Rutenberg: Alittle bit of a background. H ere in Canada we have the voluntary code of practice for guidelines, we don't have the ADA. A nd the voluntary code can be enforced by the Canadian Transportation Agency, which is an agency that has the power t o enforce some of these issues. A nd it relates mainly to federal regulated transportation modes like air inter

- city trains some inter

- city buses. U sually this kicks in after a complaint by a disabled person they can make a complaint to the carrier that c ertain accessibility aspects that are shown in the voluntary code have not been met and then the CTA makes a decision if this can be or should be implemented or not. We also have a different set up in terms of how many cars should be accessible in Canada, it's only one. O ne coach car per train must be fully accessible. I t's also one wheelchair position in accessible car.The elements I will talk about today are boarding,

entrance door, the vestibule, the path to the wheelchair position, the wheelchair po sition space itself with adjustable table you will see later on. A nd adjacent companion seat, space for service animals, access to wash rooms, and of course the accessible wash room. This drawing shows you the original concept on the top, which was before we made the changes to the coach car to be accessible. A s you can see on the top, there is a kind of a center aisle. I also have to adhere the fact that these cars are different than many other cars because the seats are on both sides on an elevated level. S o, the aisle is kind of a corridor that is fixed. I t's about 19 inches in width. O ne of the challenges was, what you can see in the lower drawing concept drawing to make this whole area accessible at the floor level. B ecause we wanted to make sure that people don't have to use the step on to the seats either left or right side.This is the typical entrance door (indicating). I t's 32 inches wide. H as steps, as many as all other cars. O ne entrance door on each end of the car. T he

-- in Canada we have only two stations that are level with the platform. A nd for these platforms, as you can see on the left

- hand side, we use bridge plates just to come over a small kind of horizontaland vertical gaps.

Most of the stations as you will see on the right

- hand side use station

- based lift for nonlevel platforms. A nd that is, unfortunately, the majority of the stations. A nd this lift that you see here on the right is a hand

- cranked lift which goes down to the floor. T he person has to

-- the person in the wh eelchair who travels has to give advance notice to the carrier, a day ahead, to make sure that somebody is there to deploy the lift and make the boarding accessible. We have car borne lifts it's from Ricon which is presently used only in sleeper cars VIA i s investigating the use of these lifts as Amtrak and Talgo for all coach cars. We typically require vertical travel of about 48 inches from the platform to the floor level of the car. T he vestibule was designed as you can see with a clear turning circle of 1500 millimeters which is 59 inches. F or two reasons: O ne is that we have the typical person in a manual wheelchair that can be assisted, their turning radius is relatively small. T he same as power chairs. But when it comes to scooters, especially four
-wheeled scooters, the turning radius is much bigger and so we have allowed for this larger vestibule area to have a clear turning radius of 1500 so that people can go from the vestibule right into the cab. Now, the accessible path this is a top view he re you cansee on the left side is the entrance door then we have the

1500 millimeters or the 59 inches vestibule area and then it leads to the vestibule door. T he door is about 32 inches wide. T he corridor it's 900 millimeters which is about 35 inches a nd it leads all the way to the position where the person is in the wheelchair is traveling. So, you have a clear corridor from the vestibule in an offset manner as you can see the wash room is located on one side and the corridor is on the other side. W hat the position of the wheelchair falling in here (indicating). The vestibule door is, I think, 32 inches wide, yep. W hat you see here on the left

- hand side was the original drawing the 1200 millimeters or 48 inches is the height to the control to open the door. I t's a green touch

-- touch control, and that opens the doors. I t has, also, an indication in Braille and raised letters. S o, you have three things, you have the color, which is a green color, you have the raised letter, and you also have the Bra ille indication. I t's 48 inches from the floor so everybody in a wheelchair can actually easily access this door from the inside or from the outside. T he view that you see here is actually from the inside of the corridor the same is happening from the ou tside. On the left

- hand side you see the vestibule door which is 32 inches. T he path the following path is 900 inches

-- 900millimeters, 35

- some inches. A nd the picture on the

right

- hand side shows you actually the view from the wheelchair position towa rds the vestibule door. W hich is the clear corridor. O n the right

- hand side you can see the beginning of the wash room here (indicating). T hat's the wash room module. T his is the table here (indicating) which I show you later for the person that sits i n the wheelchair and travels there. Now, when we are talking about the wheelchair position, we made room for just the footprint of about 30 inches by 48 inches roughly. I n this area, we have an adjustable table, this table can be used, it's a fixed table, in terms of attached to the car. B ut it is adjustable in terms of height and also in terms of sliding horizontally. B ecause on the other side of the table, we have two accessible transfer seats for companions, so if the person in the wheelchair is sitti ng here, facing this way, you have two accessible companion seats on this side, when they are traveling together. O r these seats can also be used for someone else if they are not occupied by a companion. At the same time we have a space nearby for a servi ce animal right beside the space where the wheelchair is positioned. A nd there is also two other seats accessible seats on the other side pivoting armrest pivoting aisle armrest thesecan be used by any elderly person or people who have

difficulties getti ng in and out of the seat they have pivoting armrests and they are reserved for this purpose. T he right side shows you here (indicating) the table which is also located near the window and the wheelchair possible positioned here (indicating). A nd has cle ar space underneath the table to park the wheelchair there. We are talking about the wheelchair position in the train we have developed for VIA. I will repeat quickly to Dennis he missed that part yes, or you want me to go ahead? >> Dennis: G o ahead.
>> Uwe Rutenberg: O kay. T hese are the two transfer seats they have pivoting arm rests the table in the middle that can be stowed away it's fixed actually to the wall and the floor. B ut the important part was that these armrests be pivoting on the aisle sid e so the access in and out of the seats makes it possible and more easier for people. A lso, we found that mostly persons traveling in scooters transfer during the travel to another seat. S o, we wanted to make sure that these seats are nearby where the sc ooter is actually unoccupied in a place

-- and placed in a position where the wheelchair is traveling usually. When it comes to the wash room, we have sliding power doors, 38, 39 inches wide. T hey are pocket doors. T hecontrols are touch, raised letters, and Braille. A nd you just

touch them on the outside and they open and you touch them from the inside and they close. There is one very important aspect that we found is necessary to incorporate in the design. A nd it's the wheelchair position for the dep endent and independent transfer. N ot everybody in a wheelchair in a power chair can transfer alone from the chair to the toilet. Very often you need a companion or assistant in order to help you. F or this purpose we made two positions available that are 35 inches by 60 inches almost 60 inches. A nd it can be placed, as you can see here, 45 degrees this way (indicating). 4 5 degrees this way (indicating). B ut there is also a full 59

- inch circle so they can do the transfer frontal. I f necessary, they can also position themselves perpendicular to the toilet. S o, this makes it possible for almost every situation to carry out the transfer assisted or unassisted. On the right

- hand side here (indicating) you can see there is the toilet and it has two pivoting support arms. T he two pivoting support arms are not only for persons in a wheelchair to help them transfer but we found also for many elderly people to get in and off of the toilet easily, because you have to kind of stem yourselves in and out. T hat is a very helpful aspect

-- aspect too, we found is necessary. A llof the paper dispenser and waste receptacles are within easy

reach of the toilet here (indicating). T here is a call button emergency call button that can be reached also from the toilet in c ase somebody needs help. And there are additional grab bars you can see horizontal and vertical in order to assist transfers or at the same time to stabilize themselves because don't forget, very often trains move and there is movements within the train. T here are some other aspects with just the wash room vanity we have heard aisle

-- ideally it should be in the vicinity of the toilet. T hat is not always possible depending on how you do your layout in terms of maneuvering space and transfer positions. I n our case, it is not directly adjacent to the toilet. B ut what we have found here through research and test a grab bar around the sink. B ecause when you are there, again, working against the movements of the trains, it can be very helpful to stabilize yo urself even for elderly people standing interest or somebody in the wheelchair who can steady themselves there. T here is a pivoting mirror here which adjusts to the person in the wheelchair so that they can see themselves fully. A nd we have warm water co ntrols. And all of the faucets are all automatic. S o anything that you put your hand under it works for the soap dispenser as much as for the water dispenser.The touch controls we talked about before I wanted to

show you the close up, unfortunately it's not a very sharp picture, I apologize. O n the left

- hand side you see it's the opening, it's a fluorescent kind of green ring that you can touch the center of it. I t has

-- you cannot see it here, unfortunately, it has a raised letter and also Braille. A n d also on the right

- hand side it's the closing which is a red circle, you touch the center, and it also has a lock to indicate that you close the door, and again, here you can see more, this is in raised letters it says "lock" there is a Braille indication which indicates of course also locked. S o, these were the main features that I wanted to show you. T he idea was to integrate all elements from the entrance to the position to the traveling position and also including everybody else with a disability, as I mentioned before people traveling with service animals, so there is a place for this. A nd there are, actually, maybe I didn't show this. T here are actually two additional places in the coach car for spaces with service animals. S o, if you are not in a wheelchair with a service animals but you are a blind person traveling with a service animal, there is a space in front of you that accommodates the service animal in such a way that they are out of the passageway and not be in the way of other people wa lking in the aisle. T hank you very much. If you have any questions please feel free to do so.>> BILLY ALTOM: Questions? D ennis first. G ot you

--

>> Dennis Cannon: T he

-- this is for you and the previous I forgot to ask this question the fold

- down gra b bars, when I was in Amsterdam they have fold

- down grab bars in almost all of the toilets, but they are very difficult to raise once they are down they really

-- the whole concept in the Netherlands seems to be an assumption that you are going to be assis ted by somebody. T he flush control. You can't reach either from a wheelchair it has to be because it's behind the toilet. I am wondering about the issue of raising and lowering those movable grab bars how difficult and how easy they are, because the one s that I have seen are pretty hard once they get down it's very difficult to get them back up.
>> Uwe Rutenberg: Yes, Dennis you are right. T he pivoting

-- actually we don't call them grab bars we call them support arms. Typically they are up. T hey are really meant for people who are elderly and are able to you know bring them down. B ecause for somebody who wants to transfer from the chair to the toilet, there are the other grab bars there where you can

-- they can be used and they are attached to the wall. S o, these support arms are really not meant to be used for somebody in the chair to transfer. B ut I realize, yes, for somebody who wants to use them. A nd needs a certainstrength to put them up, again, you are right.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Marilyn? >> Ma rilyn Golden: H i Billy. I just

-- I thought this was a very interesting presentation. I just wanted

-- I noticed that these are very accessible features. A nd that there are probably more

-- they are probably more accessible than what we see in the U.S. So, it's worth paying attention to by all of us. I am really glad that you were here to present it.
>> Uwe Rutenberg: A s I mentioned before, we have it a little bit easier we only have to make one car per train accessible. I t's not like in the U.S. wh ere you have to make I think all cars accessible. W hich makes it a little bit more difficult. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Can I ask at a later date can you show us the sleeper car or that

-- and as you alluded to you have one car per space and you have one space

. A nd knowing that can dah's demographics

-- Canada's demographics is much like America's in terms of baby boomers how are you handling the aging couples that may have to (inaudible). A nd they want to get on the train together. W hat is going on with tho se folks? A nd what to you do when somebody down the line also wants to get on? >> Uwe Rutenberg: I think it probably comes down tothe question of demand. You are right, I mean, if you have

two persons in a wheelchair traveling at the same time on the t rain, it's a problem. A nd we at the moment cannot accommodate them. The what we found so far this situation has been very, very rare. B ut it exists. I am not saying that it doesn't exist. We have made room for this actually in the sleeper car, and unfo rtunately I didn't bring the pictures here. B ecause there is another section for the committee here to deal with this. What we have done, we have made one end of the sleeper car completely accessible for a person in a wheelchair with a companion. W hich m eans, this car or this end also has power sliding doors. You come in and it has two compartments. One is a compartment which has a toilet and shower it's an accessible shower. T he other one, which is the kind of sleeping compartment, has an accessible b ed. I t has a second bed for the companion. I t has a table, a fixed table where both of them can sit opposite each other. I t has all of the accessible features like light switches, en entertainment controls, all available from the position of the bed. T he bed can also be converted into a sofa. T he one

-- the biggest problem that we have found in arranging these designs is the height of the bed, because many people forget that to transfer from a wheelchair to a bed you have to have the same height.And you know some people use transfer boards, some people

use assistants. B ut the basic requirement is really to have a height that is compatible with your wheelchair height. A nd that was one of the biggest problems to solve because typically trains have the se sleeper cars they have this arrangement where they are already constructed in such a way that there is a lower berth and the upper berth so they have it do quite a bit of reconstruction on this. B ut finally they did. And so, we tried to accommodate everything from a person in a wheelchair traveling alone from a person in a wheelchair with a companion, but, also, you can have people let's say a person who is traveling with little kids, or pregnant women, with a big stroller. S o, this compartment is act ually meant for all kinds of disabilities to be used, so it's not only for a very specific group of people. A nd we tried to accommodate as many as possible in order to also make it profitable for the carrier. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Just a follow

- up. W hat i s the VIA rail ridership? >> Uwe Rutenberg. W hat is the ridership? >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yes, what are

-- MCAT moves 80

- plus million people last year. W hat is VIA rails what is their ridership roughly? >> Uwe Rutenberg: I really don't know. D on't forgetthe whole of Canada has only 32 million people less than

California. T he only thing I can tell you our main routes from Quebec City to Montreal Toronto and then down to the west coast Vancouver. I n te rms of people traveling in wheelchairs, typically on the east coast we have about 2 to 3 persons in a wheelchair per day. Per train. I n terms of the whole demand on VIA rail in terms of

-- I really don't know I couldn't tell you. >> BILLY ALTOM: Any othe r questions? O r comments? Dennis >> Dennis Cannon: T his isn't the question so much I want to put something up for discussion later and that's the number of spaces in a train car. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: And Dennis, didn't you also once mention you wanted t o talk about floor

-- >> What? >> CHRISTOPHER HART: (inaudible) nonslip flooring.
>> Dennis Cannon: Yes, nonslip flooring. >> Uwe Rutenberg: N onslip flooring? O h, yes, yes. Yeah, I think that's probably understood now as a requirement, we have the same in bosses and aircraft and I think that suppliers are doing just that.

-- that suppliers are doing just that. >> BILLY ALTOM: Any questions from those on the phone? I think we still have folks out there in phone land. Iwant to make sure if you have com ments or questions that

you are heard. S o, if there is anybody got any questions? >> Linda still here, and no I don't any questions. >> BILLY ALTOM: Okay. T hanks Linda. >> Dennis Cannon: I am presuming that the configuration of this restroom because it' s bigger than a single aisle, that the aisle is offset like it is in the Acela train? So the aisle is off to one side as opposed to being down the center? >> Uwe Rutenberg: C orrect.
>> Dennis Cannon: W hat happens in the vestibule do you have steps or bo arding >> It's level and you have no threshold between vestibule floor and interior car door. >> Can't hear over here. >> You need the mic? >> No. (LAUGHTER) >> We captain hear you.
>> Uwe Rutenberg: D ennis was asking if there was a threshold between the vestibule and interior car no it isn't it's a flat surface from the vestibule to the interior of the car. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: One design question that I had, was there a discussion about whether to locate accessible seaton the opposite side of the ca b so your (inaudible) won't have

folks walking up the

-- up behind you. C onstantly. O r is that

-- or was that ever a discussion point? >> Uwe Rutenberg: I f I understand correctly

-- >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Right now there is a hallway is right behind the a ccessible space. >> Correct. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Was there any discussion as to the design perspective, whether it might be more beneficial to put the accessible space on the other side of the car. >> Uwe Rutenberg: N o. L et me just go back I think I know what you are referring to here. H ow do I go back here. I don't know how to work this backwards. >> These are the two accessible seats opposite the wheelchair position. T hey are also on this side where the wheelchair is, you will see

-- >> Can you go back to the general floor plan it might be more obvious back further. T here. >> Uwe Rutenberg: T his probably shows it more even. Let me just see. H ere you can see it. T his is

-- these two seats here (indicating) are accessible seats in t erms of accessible from the aisle because they are pivoting

-- they have pivoting armrests. A ll these two seats (indicating) opposite the wheelchair position they are also accessible.They have also pivoting armrests and are at the same floor

level as al l of this whole area here as well. S o, you have actually four seats that are transfer seats. I f somebody, let's say in a scooter, is parking his scooter here he has the choice he can either sit here or he can use these either of these seats. T hey are al l the same, have all of the same accessibility aspects.
>> Dennis Cannon: You are asking the wheelchair space at the bottom there, if somebody is facing to the right, that table then people walking up the aisle come behind them. I s that what you are aski ng in effect? >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yes, was there discussion about that aspect of locating that seat there, so no matter what, either someone is going to bump into your chair at some point or you always got that sick sense are somebody walking up behind yo u. >> Uwe Rutenberg: S o far we haven't had any neglect tiff feet back

-- feedback op that aspect at all. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Okay. >> BILLY ALTOM: Got you Andre > > In response to a question that was made earlier in the TSI was referring to earlie r the specification for interoperability and other standards they refer to a force of 20 Newtons which is 5 pounds to actuate anything inside the toilet that wouldinclude the handrails you need a spring to have inside the

mechanism spring assisted mechani sm to be able to lift the handrail to meet that target. >> Sorry what was the question Andre I couldn't get that
>> T he question earlier it was very

-- it required a lot of force to lift one of the handrails. S o the idea is, yes, there is a requirement i n the new regulations for it to have a 5

- pound or almost 5

- pound maximum force to actuate the actual device inside the toilet.
>> Uwe Rutenberg: O kay. A ppreciate that. T hank you.
>> Sometimes those like in the door requirements door operation that 5 pou nds refers to once you break the inertia of the door and these armrest cases, they are spring loaded ball bearings into a recess that 5 pounds. I am not sure that applies to the breaking of inertia, but once you break it to bring it into the up right posi tion I don't know if that's detailed or technical. B ut in the case of doors, when you open a door the door opening pressure inertia of the door is after you break the inertia. S o I would assume it might follow in the case of raising the arms. >> Could be

. >> I think Dennis

-- don't mean to put words in your mouth might be referring to breaking it the initial inertiagetting it out of the lock position. O nce it's starting to raise

it's easier to do but it's breaking the position piece. T hey were basicall y heavy in general. >> BILLY ALTOM: Question from the audience please right there and state your name too >> Frank Maldari, MTA Railroad, this is a good slide I wanted to make everybody aware of the differences between commuter and inter

- city. W hen you lo ok at this these two versions here you will see that if you only look at the compartment where the change was made you lost 12 seats. That's 12 widely

- spaced seats with tables in between them. In the commuter operation it's you know on the order of 16 to 20 seats. N ow, that's a nice roomy layout, and there is a lot of accommodation there. B ut losing 20 seats in a commuter rail car is really big and really difficult to overcome when you limited

-- when you are limited by capacity. T he point I am making is you can't get everything that you can in certain applications in the commuter car. You got to be

-- recognize the difficulty in trying to fit the foundations that are very spacious in certain inter

- city cars into a commuter car where you have people st anding because there is not enough seats. The other thing that I wanted to point out there this is a good picture for that. I f you look down the aisle the bathroom blocks a clear view down the aisle. Typically for our crewsthey want to be able to see d own the aisle to the vestibules,

we have quarter point doors this is a little different situation. Even if you had put the restroom on the other side of the car, you still would be blocking the aisle. A nd that's one of the constraints that we have with t he toilet compartment is keeping it clear of clear view of the aisle from end to end.
>> Uwe Rutenberg: Yes, I think those are very good points. I want to make one thing clear. T his was not meant for commuter trains at all. I understand your con trains

. We have the same when it comes to commuter trains they even don't have accessible wash rooms at all because they are usually short distance. T his is really meant for inter

- city train travel. >> Frankl Maldari: T hank you. We have been talking about a lot of inter

- city type of equipment so far this morning and I just wanted to bring up that commuter and transit is very different in many ways. A nd you got to keep an eye open for the differences when you are looking at putting accommodations in that kind of equipment. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Frank, I just have a question. (inaudible) bi

- level coaching or single coaches. O bviously a bi

- level coach you will have a clear view and

-- unless you duck down or scoot over. >> Frankl Maldari: M ost of our equipment is single levelwe do have some bi

- levels on the single level the aisle is

offset but there is still a clear path even though it's offset. When we put the bathrooms on the car we put them on the three

- seater side to have the maximum amount of space for t he bathroom. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yep.
>> Frankl Maldari: B ut even with that you can see past the bathroom. >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you. A nybody else? >> Blair Slaughter, Amtrak. T hose cars are European origin, aren't they? >> Correct, yes.
>> Blair Slaug hter: T hey are an anomaly for North America, they are a narrower car which is why they only have the two in one seating condition.
>> They are bought from the UK after finished. >> Blair: I remember when they were coming over someone tried to sell them t o Amtrak too.

(LAUGHTER) >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you very much. A nybody on the phone have a question we still have one

-- >> Robert Carlson: J ust on the cars that

-- the MARC train system the difference between a standard car and cab car with restroom is 5 seats I don't see

-- you know, thisparticular design takes more for some other reasons but as a

commuter car it is a

-- 5

- seat offset with a restroom. >> BILLY ALTOM : Good point.
>> Uwe Rutenberg: Yes. >> BILLY ALTOM: Anybody on the phone have a question? >> This is Linda. I had a question. B asically I was just curious if he knows is Canada goes

-- going towards as it acquires new cars that they be accessible or is the one car per train rule voluntary rule set you know in the future? I am only saying that because here in the U.S. we

-- we you know,
over time require new cars to be accessible in '95 I believe switched over to all cars needed to have at least one spa ce. I was just curious whether Canada is doing the same thing or not. >> Uwe Rutenberg: We just acquired a new set of rolling stocks, rolling stock. A s I mentioned before, these came from Europe they were kind of half finished. S o, the policy here was to equip these new cars and make them accessible. O ne coach car per

-- in the future all new cars that have

-- that come into service have to have the kind of same accessibility features as they have them now

-- >> Linda: R ight. Well that's good news, t hanks. >> BILLY ALTOM: One more.>> On the power door locks, do they have a manual

override? A re you stuck in there if the electric doesn't work? >> Uwe Rutenberg: I think there is manual override but I haven't heard of it being used, yes, there is one. >> BILLY ALTOM: The question did you hear that? Was there a manual override for the electric doors so if you lock it can you get out if the power goes out and

-- yes. Yes is the
answer. >> Linda Martin: T his is Linda. O ne more time I was speaking of in ter

- city rail, commuter rail has different rules with regard to accessibility. T hey have to be accessible but they have a one car per train rule. J on is there he could talk about it if he wanted. I work for FRA, so I am very FRA focused I apologize to t he commuter rail people in the room. >> BILLY ALTOM: Awesome. T hank you, Linda. >> Thanks. >> BILLY ALTOM: Any other questions comments? Going once going twice thank you very much I appreciate your time.
>> Uwe Rutenberg: T hank you. (APPLAUSE) >> B ILLY ALTOM: Up next I got Josh with Talgo. >> Josh Coran: T his presentation probably belongs

-- is Chapter 1 in Melissa's Rail 101. I think most ofthe railroad people here are going to be bored by this. B ut it

occurs to me that we use the term bi

- level very indiscriminately. T here is actually three very distinct kinds of vehicles that we call bi

- level. A nd it's probably very handy for people to understand that as time goes on because normally we will say bi

- level but people from the context will know what we are talking about. B ut if you don't know the three types you will be lost. S o, okay. T he first of the three types these are in chronological order in which they were invented. I t's better called a gallery call. T his is very familiar to people from Chicago or folks from Virginia in this neighborhood because VRE runs a lot of these cars. T hey basically have balconies above the seats you can think of them as a typical single aisle airplane arrangement with baggage bins you have seats up there. T he second kind was invented by predecessor of Bombardier (inaudible) for the Toronto commuter area in the early 70's I believe. I t is a registered trademark by Bombardier the Bi

- level it has three levels which further confuses things.

(LAUGHTER) >> Jo sh Coran: F inally, we have what I prefer to call a high

- level car which is came about in actually I got the order wrong the first of these cars was built in 1954 by the Budd company the design was dusted off I guess in the 90's forcommuter use. A nd that 's Stan's surfliner, a California car.

So, before I get started in looking at the three different cars let's look at a single level car, which is more familiar with everybody we will get terminology straight here. A nd get everybody oriented. I t was comm ented a little while ago Chris talked about ice in the vestibule. You look at the top right corner picture you understand where we are coming from historically. We used to have open platform cars. Someone came up with the idea to enclose the platform an d make an arctic entry. I t was never intended to be inside the car it was outside never heated. I t was stainless steel to keep it clean I guess. T hat's why we don't even think about keeping the ice and snow and cold out of those areas. T hat car is actu ally compatible with the car to the left (indicating) which is 1950 vintage car Amtrak inherited from the union Pacific Railroad those two cars coupled together you could walk from one to the other it would be a little breezy when you got on to the old car it's not enclosed by the walkway is the same height. T he middle picture, the bottom picture I guess is of AmFleet, car I think a 2 about 1974 or '78. I think AmFleets are more familiar they were built in 1975. T he basic body plan a vestibule used as a high level platform. You see in the bottom right picture there, there is a gentleman standing on the trap door over the step. You can'tsee it as a step because it folds up and it's hidden. T he

Union Pacific car on the left the step is folded down so yo u can see where it is. B ut it also has that same trapdoor arrangement and go to a high level platform it's a feasible arrangement. T he bottom left you see end view of the car. On the right side you see the steps going down to a standard 8 inch above top of rail platform. T here are 5 steps there pretty steep going from 8 inches to 51 inches to top of rail. On the left side you see what happens when you are against high level platform. T hat's almost level boarding. T he reason I say almost standard 48 i nches car floors are 1. We have allowed 5/8 inch with the final rule we start off with a 3

- inch difference the reason for the difference, they had steel springs the more people on the car the car would sink. Couplers are required to be 34 and a half inch es was nominal and as low as 31 and a half the springs could set tell as much as 3 inches that's why the platform is 3 inches below the empty car flow. We have air springs they can adjust as people get on air is added. A nd it stays level. T hat just guarantees the 3

- inch error. Again, the passage from car to car is still at 51 inches nothing changed in 150 years. T hen the Budd company invented the gallery car which Metra calls the bi

- level. B ut as you can see in the bottom right picture nowhere in the car people can stand one above the other.You can stand on the lower level in the central aisle between

the balconies. You can stand in the balconies besides the single row seats nowhere do people stand one above the other it's not bi

- level I would like to call it one and a half. Gallery car is the proper name. T here is one exception to the picture that we see here. T his car is pretty typical. I n fact, we saw a picture of a lady being loaded on to one of the cars station born wheelchair lift in the ce nter vestibule hey has built in interior steps that go down to the 8

- inch high platform. I f you pull up alongside the 48

- inch platform you see on the bottom left there is no way to get out of the car. You go down the steps, you are almost at ground level

. I f you put a bridge plate there or a trapdoor like we have in the conventional car, the door header is way too low. I t really has to be because we cut a notch in the side of the car to put steps in where we are weakening very greatly. We need the deep section above the door to meet the FRA strength require: You can't raise the door arbitrarily. H owever, you can still put this car into a conventional train and couple to the ancient coach I had on the first slide and walk through from one to the other. The floor is a little lower in the car the main floor bottom floor the ends are not. T he buffer is at 51 inches there is a ramp and sometimes a single step to get to that level to go into the next car. T his is still compatible with 150years worth of e quipment.

Now, we come to the multi level car the Bombardier registered trademark bi

- level it's commonly used in the south and wet of the United States from Miami to Seattle Vancouver has them Toronto has thousands, I think. Very popular design. B ut it's got three levels it's designed to be boarded from 8

- inch high platform you see the quarter point doors there. T here is internal step there was one external step you go up two steps from the 8

- inch platform to the 24

- inch high floor. F rom there you can g o to

-- go up to the mezzanines as they are called on each end. G uess what? T hey are still at 51 inches above the truck the wheel assemblies they have to be about that height before the coupler. You could still walk into a 150

- year
- old car from that end

. M ost passengers continue up to the upper level you see from the sill low wets you can stand two people can stand one above the other in the center section between the trucks. B etween the wheels. On the left at the bottom you will see a variation. U tah has a passenger, only section of track where they have raised that exterior step to be flush with the floor and the platforms are at 24 inches. T hey actually can provide level boarding at every door on every train. T his is a very unusual situation, in fact it's unique. T hese cars do that only in that one

-- on that one property.This is a variation of the multi

- level design. You see

here on the east coast. T he basic body plan of the car is the
same. You can still walk through to the next car at the 5 1

- inch height. B ut the entry is on that mezzanine level. That puts it within the 3 inches at least of the standard 48

- inch high level platform. T he down side is that when you get on that

-- into that entrance with a mobility aid you pretty much are stuc k there it's a pretty small area. M ost people go up or down from there. I was talking to a gentleman from New Jersey Transit earlier, and if the ride is short I guess all of us have ridden Metro know you are a little worried about getting too far away fr om the door you worry about getting off. People stay on the entry level if the ride is short. M ost of the seats are in upper and lower levels. T here is four examples here they all basically have the same feature the one in the bottom left is notable New Jersey's I am tempted to call it Rube Goldberg. I t's not nice.

(LAUGHTER) >> Josh Coran: I t really works fairly well. T he door you can see be used at a high level or low level platform and can be opened remotely by the train crew from another car. The train line operations. I t's really a very clever design. T he yellow thing you see across, at the floor level is kind of a gap filler it pulls out of the way when the door opens if the trap isopen and you are going to go down to a low level platform

.

Aside from that little detail they are actually all very similar. Now, we come to the first car that isn't so similar. I n 1954, the Budd Company came up with the idea for the Santa Fe Railway. T hey built similar cars with the car to car entry of abou t 100 inches above top of rail. You see it's much, much higher than conventional cars. A nd the entry is guaranteed to be at a low level platform. T here is no way to have it as a high level platform. You enter hoe level 18 inches or some cars I think we re built at 17 inches. Again, we have the platform error, because the

-- those platforms for these cars are envisioned to be at 15 inches which gives you the 3

- inch guaranteed problem. A nd in addition to that, in many states I am not sure about Californi a, I know in Wisconsin, there are state laws that prohibit platforms at that height to be close enough to the car to maintain the 3

- inch maximum gap. This is because

-- this would probably not be applicable on the passenger only line but it's to protect railroad employees riding on the sides of freight cars when spotting them into industrial sightings or what have you. T here would have to be a gap filler to provide level boarding and we have to do something about the 3

- inch error. T his car is the one Mel issa mentioned as being prototype for the PRIIA standard bi

- level car we showed the slide similar to this showing thereis limited facilities on the bottom level everything you need is

there. B ut most people go to the upper level that's where the seats are and access to the rest of the train is there. So, there are the three different kinds. I have a handout similar to that if people want to pick it up I am happy to entertain questions or there is my contact information whenever you are so moved. >> BILLY ALTOM: Stan? >> Stan Hunter: T hank you

-- Stan Hunter. T hank you Josh for this. I think this is a very good clear indication of varieties of multi level bi

- level and single level of equipment that are operating in the north American rail network in a variety of geographical regions. I think it's important for the committee to understand the technical differences when we refer to things as bi

- levels multi

- levels or gallery cars. A lso, one of the questions that came up this morning during Melissa's presentation was viewing the floor plan for the new NGEC car what were the empty spaces at either end of the lower level. T his presentation answers that question o n the lower level, that's the equipment room that's over the wheels. That's where the air conditioning units are the waste tanks water tanks all of those sorts of things. S o, that's what is in that it's a low ceiling area the clearance is only 3 feet fro m the floor to the ceiling in that equipment room. A lso, in thepicture that Josh has, up here for the high level car or bi

- level

car or the next generation car, if you can go back to that picture, Josh.
>> Which one
>> S tan Hunter: T he photograph you h ad with the surfliner car. T he second car back in that train, this is one of our surfliner trains in Southern California. T he second car in the train is one of Amtrak's super liner coach cars and you can see a super liner car as Josh was mentioning they have the same high level pass through on the upper level for one car type to another but that car you can barely see it in this indication that car has one door on the lower level in the center of the car it's a single panel door it's a manual door only, I think Blair the super liner doors are 32 inches wide? >> Blair Slaughter: A bout 34.
>> Stan Hunter: A nd then on the photograph you can see here on the surfliner car you see the twin vestibules we have two public side entry vestibules with twin power tra in line doors those are the vestibules are 52

- inch wide door openings as Melissa mentioned this morning in the presentation. T hat's a little bit of a additional description about the type of equipment California operates and that we are buying on behalf o f the NGEC for California and the midwest. J osh, thanks again for your presentation.>> BILLY ALTOM: Anybody else have any? F irst here.

>> In our discussion with the PRIIA group the question always came up how do we make the second level accessible for a person in a wheelchair. A nd there was the fact mentioned that or the idea came up should there be an elevator in this car to bring people up from the lower level to the second level. I just wanted to ask anyb ody if

-- is there anybody who has experienced anything similar and so can you share this information with us? >> Josh Coran: A ctually, I can answer that question. This is Josh, Alaska Railroad for which I worked 21 years has true bi

- level cars I guess you call them built by Colorado rail car which didn't know you couldn't do such a thing. A nd it has a full width and length deck on the upper level and the lower level. S o, people stand one over the other above a truck which you never see in the other des igns. A nd some of those cars do have elevators. A nd I spoke to the chief mechanical officer there just a few months ago, and he said they

-- I was trying to encourage him to tell me how terrible these things were. A nd he said they were at first but they seem to have them working okay now. N ow, that said, this is a summertime tourist operation the equipment goes back to the same shop every second night at least it's very well cared for I don't know how practical it would be in general use.>> Thank you.

>> Mike Wetherell. J ust a quick comment on that. When you look at the designs here one thing that is in common is where you enter is where you have your accessibility. To create something inside the car that could move someone from one level to the othe r it's interesting but it's not practical. We got to look at safety. I f you have somebody that happens to be put on an upper level, and that thing worked great getting them up there but something goes wrong and now it doesn't work getting them down you p ut yourself in a really bad position. You need to make sure that we look at safety and we look at the all passenger safety and so, if we are alighting we need or getting on board we need to be able to get off safely. I am not saying every situation you
c an't find that it doesn't work for even where you are boarding. B ut I am just saying, that we need to look at making sure that we are not putting ourselves out there trying to

-- trying to accommodate something that is out of the ordinary but putting someb ody in a bad position. >> BILLY ALTOM: Jackson and then Ed then Stan. T hen I got audience. >> Jackson: I n Japan on one of their trains the E4 series they have a lift inside the bi

- level coach now the practice that has been in Japan similar in Europe only one car train or isaccessible so that particular car has the lift for someone to

enter and go up to the accessible seating on the second level. >> Can it be operated during travel? >> Jackson Xue: I believe so. I have to check, double check that for yo u.
>> Thank you.
>> Ed Hoff: W hat

-- when we talk about providing access off of that boarding level, this is where the commuter rail differs or should differ from the inter

- city rail because somebody mentioned before about amenities as well. You have

-- you may have a difference in amenities on the inter

- city rail that you won't have necessarily on the commuter rail commuter rail is seating only identical top and bottom. T he only issue perhaps is subrogation. I did mention that to Josh earlier in New Je rsey Transit it's not an issue that I happen to be aware of only because we have people in the short distance between stations we have people getting on and off all the time. A nd generally we are pretty crowded pretty much all of the time. You never are alone in the intermediate level it's a popular level to sit op. T here is seating available not quite as plush perhaps on the upper and lower levels you might find one table on the upper level no tables elsewhere in the whole rail car. B ut it's certainly not it's an integratable situation. I could see there would be adifference in amenities on an inter

- city rail station.

>> Stan Hunter: T his is Stan Hunter, one other consideration is as we continue to design rail cars with features, more accessible spac e, seating, more luggage and trash storage we find the space is at a premium. Essentially in our services in California, what we are finding is more and more as the population ages and people are growing increasingly unable to climb stairs we are finding that the lower level seats in the cars are becoming more and more in did he manned. F rom our viewpoint, you can see how big the footprint is for the accessible toilet room we acknowledge that that is an absolutely indispensable element of lower element of all of the cars every car we own has a lower level restroom

-- that would remove yet even more space for people who need to have the lower level seating who aren't able to climb the stairs to the upper level of the cars. I t really becomes for us a concer n about the amount of available seating on the lower level to accommodate people as well. >> Dennis Cannon: O kay. I am glad that you did this presentation. I wondered what all of those different kind of
cars were. O ne of the things that we have to reme mber is we are talking about the guidelines in this exercise are for new cars only. S o, we are not going to be retrofitting any cars. I t might be that the guidelines we come up with would excludeone type of car or another from future

-- you know you

cou ldn't build one again unless you did something really creative. S o, my question is: O f all of these different types of cars, aside from the fact that some agencies running say gallery cars want to have them look all the same, aside from that, is there a reason why there are so many different kinds of configurations? >> Josh Coran: T hat's a very good question. I am
sure
-- I am sure there is a reap. E ach agency has its own desires. I think the

-- if you look right from the first departure from the single level car every step has been to try to cram more people into the standard 85

- foot length car length. T hat's what every one of these innovations is all about. T he high level car was also more of a luxury vehicle it was intended for Chicago to Los Angele s service initially in 1956 they were long distance versions the soup liner are long distance it's nice and quiet it might be another reason. E ach of the three basic designs has at least one big agency behind it. S o, I don't really see anybody sitting down and letting its design become illegal. >> Dennis Cannon: W hat about in items of platform height is there a reason that these are different? >> Josh Coran: O kay. T he question is about platform height. I could go on forever on this stuff. T he platfor msare
-- if we were lucky, they were 8 inches, a lot of times they

are rail head level get a step box to get the first step up. Some

-- when we invented the vestibule about 19

-- I mean 1890, they first had it arranged you had to open the trapdoor first

- - the vestibule door

-- somebody caught on fast. I f you did it the other way around you have the capability of being

-- you walk out on a high level platform building Penn Station in New York in 1905 or 07. >> (inaudible) >> Josh Coran: T hat early Grand Central 1913 these are passenger only tracks there are no trains in Manhattan they built high

- level platforms there. T hey were able to use the trapdoor arrangement to accommodate just those two cities and maybe Newark was built with high level platforms P hiladelphia 30th street came shortly there after. T hen we invented the dome car and people realized you could have goose neck upped frame or split level kind of car the dome cars had very short multiple level. T hey by making them longer they could get mo re people in. A nd we started getting things like gallery cars and the superliners. T hat locked in those cars. T hen we go to low level platforms the high level platform is halfway between the two levels. N ow, we have a vulcanized system some equipment c an only run in the east some in the west.>> You left out your own cars, how about showing us an

explanation of Talgo Cascade cars and the one warehouse. >> Josh Coran: Two sets. I f anybody has spare change they are available. I left them out intentiona lly they are basically single level cars. T hey are half a car length long this, this is going to bring in a whole other discussion. T hey are articulated, which means they are permanently coupled to each other, you have to spend 8 hours in a shop to take them apart than the 8 minutes with the conventional car. I consider the entire train to be a single car. E ach unit is half as long as conventional car seats half many people one quarter as many people of high level cars and yet has to have the same handi cap or I mean disabled spaces. >> Go on. >> BILLY ALTOM: I have Jim Jon and then I have Ed okay. Jim? >> Jim: F loor height is another sad story up until the

-- >> Josh Coran: T he equipment running in the cascade service now was built in the 90's and the floor height is about 24 inches. Talgo's latest series we started operating two of them in the Pacific Northwest, it's 30 inches. S o, with

-- nothing is going to match anything I am afraid. >> BILLY ALTOM: Jim. I ntroduce yourselves and state your
-->> Jim Weisman, United Spinal Association I had a

question that is

-- you mentioned returning to 51 inches all the time. A nd it's designed to be able to do that. Would it be just as easy to design it

-- probably not just as easy would it be possible to d esign it so that it aligns with platforms whatever the platform height? >> Josh Coran: Well, you are talking about like a kneeling bus with

-- >> Jim Weisman: Yeah, but that's just like a corner. This would be the whole

-- >> Josh Coran: Yeah. I thoug ht about that it certainly wouldn't be impossible. D o you remember the mobile lounges at Dulles Airport with the jack crews/ >> Yes.
>> Josh Coran: We could accommodate any platform height that would be clap trap on the cars a lot to go wrong a lot more weight I am afraid to go there.
>> Jim Weisman: R ight. S uppose we are talking 3 or 4 inches differential all the time. >> Josh Coran: T he 3 inches that's a self inflected wound. B lair needs to carry this back to the high speed folks. The new specification for the new high speed trains it's 51

- inch

- high floor, they should do 48

- inch set in concrete. The few inches isn't the problem. T here may be a problemwith the 5/8 inch tolerance we have wheel wear and civil

engineers do things in feet not inches t here is all kinds of variations keeping 5/8 is stuff. I got op the airplane and looked it wasn't 5/8 inches there the jet ray came out there was a lift that wept down the airplane had a funny shape. A s standing there the thing jumps up and down and tryin g to maintain height. 5 /8 is a real challenge. You can get close to that if we don't self inflict with this initial 3

- inch error. >> Jon Holbrook: I want to make everybody aware that, and Stan forgive me for bringing this up, there was a car the Cal Tra ns food service car the 14 California cars were designed and built with an elevator it wasn't a dumb waiter lift. T his was the specification and I am sure that none of the group from Cal Trans that played a hand in that are still there. But we

-- it was an aerospace company aerospace design. But the intent was that the elevator be ADA compliant the upper heavily of the dining car be ADA compliant which to the pest of my knowledge

-- which to the best of my knowledge it was. T here were some little areas I can remember talking to

-- asking Dennis questions about, but you know equivalent facilitation. B ut it was

-- that was the original intent. W hen the cars went into service, of course the cars were never used for their intended purpose as a dining car w hat not but the elevator cab the capacity people could go up

-- if you are inthe car you will notice there are windows in the doors and in

the up stairs shroud which there would be no reason for if it was just a dumb waiter. B ut I do agree with Stan there was obviously reliability issues back then but I do agree that there would be a lot of liability issues you know

-- hell you could figure out a stair lift. You know, if you had conductor that would facilitate somebody and you know if they

-- I remember ta lking to Vietnam vets out in LA when we were designing these things and they said, hell yeah put me up there. I will sign anything off. B ut the operators

-- you know what is involved. I just want to make everybody aware at least it had been attempted, a nd I was asking Stan about it this morning and there were as far as the equipment reliability issues and obviously operational concerns also. >> Stan Hunter: T his is it Stan Hunter. J on brings up some history in the California equipment, I want to clarif y though the engineering was done to develop that design, they were never operated in that fashion because we as owners of the equipment Amtrak as operators of the equipment were never comfortable with the safety considerations and the reliability and the fact that if somebody got trapped in the elevator there would be no way to get them out. A nd the elevators were also designed to not have people in the elevator when the train was moving, they are powered off ofthe head end power if the head end power we nt out the had to

be hand cranked at the bottom of the elevator shaft. A nd it was the decision was made that the hardware, though the engineering was done at that the hardware did not provide reliability and safety necessary in order to put it in revenue service. A nd our experience with those cars over the last 16 years proved that that was the wise decision because just moving boxes of food up to the upper level alone proved to be a reliability problem. I am thankful we didn't allow passengers to use th ose elevators because we would have had reliability issues and safety issues we never had to evacuate a train through the use of one of those. B ut the engineering was done but it was never fulfilled as the technology to move people it was the elevators on the cars ever since the day placed in service those cars were used as dumb waiters to move food only. >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you, Stan. >> Mike Wetherell. J ust clarification. G o to slide number 8 for a second. I f you look at the upper left hand picture the Long Island Railroad multi

- level vehicle. Actually, I know you made that reference to Penn Station and commuterism and whatnot. U p until around 1990, Long Island Railroad did have trapdoors and have stairwells. It was when these

-- when Long Island Railroad made thedecision to purchase the bi

- levels that were going out using

dual modes into December sill territory the decision was made to convert to all high level platforms for accessibility purposes I wanted to make that net. T hat's why this vehic le looks different it doesn't have the stairwells it looks similar to the Montreal one. >> BILLY ALTOM: Perfect. We have Dennis.
>> Dennis Cannon: O kay. Acouple of quick points, one is the purpose of this committee is to upgrade the current standards a nd guidelines and I want to make sure that nobody is thinking of going backward. T he current part 38 rule says that high speed trains have to be level boarding. S o it's not an option to have you know lifts and those kinds of things. I want to make sure that is clear. T he other thing as I said earlier, we wrote the guidelines on the kind of building code format. W hich typically says, there is a minimum or maximum, and then an exception. M ost of the people sort of didn't really quite get that idea from the engineering fields. So, I recommend that we follow what was done with the new guidelines for level boarding puss which is instead of talking about different gaps for new cars, new platform, old cars, new platform et cetera, simply say that when the ga p horizontal exceeds, I would say 2 inches, or when the vertical displacement exceeds 5/8 inches then you have to providesome kind of device. A nd so, it's not a case of necessarily

meeting those requirements it's a case of whenever you don't meet them yo u have to do something else like a ramp a bridge plate a lift. >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you. C rystal? >> Crystal: Well, I was just sitting here thinking about how that upper level really is an amenity there is really segregation when you are not able to go up there. You
-- if you don't want to believe it you don't have to believe it but it is. A nd there really is a difference of what you see. H as anyone been to Mackinac Island here? I took my son when he was about 10

- year
- old I came home bragging to my h usband about it was so cool there were no cars, just horses. I t was just wonderful. I t was just perfect. M y son who uses a wheelchair said, yeah, but not from my point of view. A ll he saw was horses rear ends all weekends. I am sitting here thinking a bout that. W hen I think about all of these brilliant minds in the room saying it can't be done. Yeah, maybe 15, 20, 30 years ago maybe it couldn't be done. M aybe there wasn't reliable things, whatever the need is, but maybe we should stretch a little an d see is there any way, because the

-- all of us in the room may be in a position in the near future where we would really like to be sitting up above. I know Billy would like to be sitting in that upper level. A nd hehas talked about the view of the tre e trunks from Chicago to

DC. You know it's not so cool. B ut I just maybe we can think about is there any way to go forward like Dennis keeps reminding us we are not talking about the past we are not talking about what we have right now. We are talking a bout what we would like the future to be. B ut I just feel like I needed to share that so

-- >> BILLY ALTOM: Good point. I have Blair? >> Blair Slaughter: Yes, thank you. F irst, I just wanted to reiterate that even when you look at the photograph of the surfliner car which is an Amtrak car very much like the Cal Trans cars, and our am track's superliner behind it, the surfliner is sort of a the odd car it's a transitional car from service standpoint superliner being a long distance car opening its doors fairly infrequently surfliner filling the came between a true long distance car and computer situation which needs to be able to move more people on and off more rapidly. A s you look through these various car types that's a very critical thing for everyon e to keep in mind. On the railroad side between Amtrak Long Island New Jersey Transit and California we have a lot of commonalities from the pure railroad standpoint, the flank works. S omewhere 48, 17, 18 inches above the track everything changes for the commuters. I t's all about movingthe masses and dwell time at stations, headway and getting

everybody home and getting everyone to work safely. A nd when you go to subways and things like that, the criticality increases obviously the more people you are t rying to move the more critical it is not to have to worry about how long it takes you to get on and off the train. A nd keep all of the safety issues at bay. S o, you can wheel right on and step right on. T here is no issues. W hen you get into long dista nce trains because the frequency of boarding is much

-- much further apart. You have a little more time to spend at the stations. N ot so much that the freight railroads puts us in a different slot and we get later than we are. B ut it is very different. And segue from that into the whole issue of the second level of bi

- level cars if there is a

-- there are people at Amtrak that will push me out in front of a train later for saying this, but

-- >> (inaudible) >> Blair Slaughter: You would be surprised. But the bi

- level is a

-- the bi

- level cars when you are traveling in the lower level I mean I have traveled long distances on the upper level and the lower level, you do spend a lot of time down in the lower level looking at the tree trunks. A nd when you get into some areas it's almost irrelevant where you are because there is nothing. B ut there is a lot to see from the upperlevels. I think if there is a place for transferring to the upper

level of the train it's on the long haul trains. I wouldn't put that burden on my friends at the commuters, because it would, I think it would be

-- one you are going tore different
reasons. You are trying to get 20, 30, 40 minutes to work or to home, your goal is not to look out at the scenery of Trenton New Jersey it's to get home.

(LAUGHTER) >> Blair Slaughter: I like to pick at Trenton. (LAUGHTER) >> Blair Slaughter: B ut

-- >> It's been a rough day in the government. (LAUGHTER) >> Blair Slaughter: I wasn't even thinking about you, poor guy. B ut I t hink that we do have to look at

-- we have to open our minds abdomen get creative and see are there safe ways to make transition to move folks not in every car I don't want to say every vehicle. B ut when we are looking at amenities maybe a logical thing i s you can go to the second level on a fixed number of cars, and you can transfer maybe to a diner would that be nice? B ut

-- so I don't want to throw it out not everyone would agree with me but I think it's something that we need to at least investigate a nd not think just about elevators there is a lot of different ways to movediagonally to get to the vertical point. S o, I think we need to

think about those kinds of things. >> BILLY ALTOM: I have Jim Chris and then Marilyn wrap us up. >> Jim Weisman : I am glad Blair said what he said 20

- something years ago when we were writing ADA we had a presentation done for a committee the Amtrak appropriation committee done by Amtrak showing us why you will never be able to change cars while the train is in mot ion in a wheelchair. A nd it was very compelling. T hey showed us all

-- all of the testimony problems that they would have try to go do that. Last night I came down on Amtrak while it was treacherous I am not a wheelchair user I was falling all over the place when the train was moving with the hot tea trying to balance when I changed cars there is quite a sophisticated

-- somebody really thought this out. I was looking at every moving part of this it was fascinating to provide a way for a wheelchair user to go from car to car. It clearly was done

-- somebody thought of how to do it somebody investigated the money and research and development and it actually went into production after they insisted 22 years ago, whatever it was 24 years ago, just absolutel y couldn't be done. We should

-- we should not hope for it. B ut, you know, great minds get together in aroom like this, I get to watch the great minds. (LAUGHTER) >> Jim Weisman: D o it. A nd figure out the solutions to problems like that. S o I am glad you said don't give up on that stuff. A nd I also want to point out that not giving up on level boarding

-- really level boarding where the car acts like an elevator and finds the landing where the elevator finds the landing the car finds the platform would increase safety for everybody. A nd it would end at least the vertical gap problem that has been plaguing wheelchair users on every system whether rapid rail or long haul trips. I t's a big issue. And it

-- if there is a way to do it, we shouldn't give up on it you know. >> BILLY ALTOM: Chris and then Marilyn we will wrap this particular topic up. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: I just wanted to (inaudible). I ride almost every weekday we use the bi

- level or what Josh would call a multi

- level car, and it work s quite well for commuter purpose. A nd as long as you really don't care about looking out the window, and you just are going from point A to point B it works. A nd you don't care. B ut you
-- if you would go to the next slide, slide 9 Josh. Yes. So the comment was made about looking at this, that is really distorted. You are one of the folks who wanted to take thesurfliner, say, from San Diego up the coast so

Amtrak

-- to

-- it's gorgeous scenery but when you sit on the lower level you don't really see much. I have done it a couple of times, and it would be fascinating study to mount two video cameras and just look at them side by side at what the difference is. A nd while we don't necessarily have authority to go out to every one there is as several o f you mentioned a difference in what one sees. A nd (inaudible) I am happy to hear folks raise that issue. B ecause it's a real issue. Finally, I would just ask for all of you rail equipment manufacturers is there a standard step height on the trapdoors? And if there is, what is it, and given your trapdoors are not going away any time soon, is that an area where safety

- wise there needs to be a discussion about what those trapdoors steps look like? >> Josh Coran: Well, the math tells you it has to be 8 and a half inches because the bottom step 17 floor is 51, you know do the math. S o that's pretty standard. T he first step up from the platform is more from 8 to

-- it's 9 inches from 8 to 17. A nd of course it all varies with wheel wear and tolerances in th e platform. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Okay. T hat said, my follow

- up to that is: W hy have European counterparts (inaudible) have the pop out steps for the bottom steps to reduce that firststep height from the platform to the first step there.

>> Josh Coran: We could do that increase each step a little bit that would lower the bottom step but then we have clearance problems. O f course new cars the steps hold up when the car is moving. S o that pulls it out of the clearance violation. S o, yeah, we could do so mething like that. >> BILLY ALTOM: And we have Marilyn. >> Marilyn Golden: T hanks Billy. I had wanted to speak after Blair because it was so exciting to agree with what somebody from Amtrak said.

(LAUGHTER) >> (inaudible) (LAUGHTER) >> Marilyn: And we will protect you. (LAUGHTER) >> Marilyn Golden: B ut I

-- I agree with Jim. I t's great that you raise the point that you did. A nd I just want to say that in terms of the comparison you made with between inter

- city and commuter rail, on the one hand I agree that

-- on the one hand I agree that it's more in line with the customer base and type of function that inter

- city railways, having said that, I don't want to dismiss the fact that we may also expect that of computer rail. A nd that you know there are also good reasons to do it in that context.>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Just one thing that I forgot to

add. I think it goes to Stanton's point earlier. Every time that I have been on a superliner type train the person sitting next to me were all over 65. S o, I was always the youngest one there. C learly, they could get up the stairs but they couldn't get up the stairs. A nd that does raise an issue when we have 10,000 baby boomers a day turning 65. >> BILLY ALTOM: Excellent. A nyone on the phone with comments or questions for

-- >> Operator, if you could unmute Ed Steinfield, please. >> BILLY ALTOM: Comments or questions? >> Mr. Steinfield? >> I don't have any. >> BILLY ALTOM: Hearing none, that was

-- thank you J osh, that was awesome.

We have

-- how many do we have. We are trying to get a break in. M ake these quick folks in the audience. >> Thank you Mr. Chair. G ary Talbot. I just

-- I just wanted to real quickly I appreciate Blair Crystal I think Dennis h it the nail on the head. You will take the existing guidelines and improve the guidelines. I can tell you from personal experience, that you know riding in the first level there is about every five minutes you will see like an oh, if you are on the surfl iner like Chris is talking while everybody else gets100% of wonderful incredible beauty. A nd I think just having

those amenities they are so important whether it's the dining car or just going up to a dome car or something like that or sightseeing car I want to encourage you to keep driving down that path it's 30 years later there is a lot to be done. T he other thing I would say from my experience I would say commuter inter

- city they are different it's like Blair said folks get on our trains stay on for a long, long time. A nd a long time in between stops you have time to do things go upstairs, have dinner, things like that. You don't do that on a commuter situation. >> BILLY ALTOM: Okay. F rank?
>> And I got you next.
>> Frankl Maldari: F rank Maldari, MTA. I want to expand on what Dennis was saying. L ike Mike had said previously when we got the C3 cars we made a conscious decision to raise all of the platforms to make it more accessible for people to get on or off the train easier, faster. As a resul t of that, instead of you having to walk up and down with trapdoors you had nice mostly level boarding, only to find out a few minutes later to find the gap was too wide. We made great increase in accessibility by raising the platform and I think everybod y here wants to encourage doing that. And when you put very tight tolerances on new platforms andnew equipment you are actually discouraging that. B ecause

meeting those high tolerances is very difficult to do. J osh was talking a little bit about the 3

- inch gap on the

-- you know how the suspension systems have changed. S ome things have changed we do have air suspension but most cars have two stages of suspension they have a primary suspension which is just above the wheels to the truck and that is typi cally steel could be rubber but it's very necessary. >> Talk normally. >> It works better.
>> Frankl Maldari: A nd the second stage is usually air suspension. T he air suspension doesn't just for passenger weight

-- does add just for passenger weight the s pring suspension doesn't. You have to keep in mind that there are times when the suspension system is dropping and the car is dropping. H aving a car above the platform when we went through the gap group at RSAC we felt it was typically better to step up in the car upwards you want to the car higher. I n addition to the suspension system dropping you have wheel car which Josh mentioned as well. O n our system we typically like to keep the cars above the platform as the wheels wear and passengers get on it gets more level. We are approaching it that way. W hen you have a really tight retirement on the 5/8 of an inch it discourages people fromattempting that. M ost of the platforms of very close to that

but we have bridge plates in every car. A nd if

-- if your chief goal is to get on and off the car as easily as possible allowing a bridge plate when you don't meet the requirements which is what Dennis was saying before is the best way to achieve your goal having relatively level boarding ease of getting on and off the train without an overly restrictive tolerance on the platform and car. >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you. A nd David? >> Yes. I am David from Amtrak. I had a question

-- I have noticed several videos on the Internet and other places that some of the rails light rails or high speed or whatever they have emergencies

-- they have

-- they have roll out bridge plates, excuse me. You know, with an automatic roll out so they can open. And it seems like people who are traveling in wheelchairs tend to get on th ose and then fall off. You know, or they try to do it themselves instead of waiting for someone to put the bridge plate on. A nd I think that if we have anymore information that we can collect about that, that might be a benefit. A nd perhaps solve that i ssue and fix that gap. F or that platform for people who are boarding. >> You are talking about gap fillers? >> David: I am not exactly sure if my language is thecorrect terminology but I call it automatic bridge plates.

>> BILLY ALTOM: One last question

. >> I was going to give them a white paper on

-- >> BILLY ALTOM: He was going to give him paperwork on the bridge late. Awesome. J osh? T hank you very much. That was a great presentation.

(APPLAUSE) >> BILLY ALTOM: We are going to take a break now

. Let's take 15 minutes. We will have our final presentation by the Washington Metro Transit Authority. >> Participants on the line, the line will remain open between the break for the telephone participants. (Short recess taken.)

Rail Vehicles Acces s Advisory Committee U.S. Access Board

- afternoon session Thursday January 9, 2013 (Short recess taken.)
>> BILLY ALTOM: If you see the flashing lights, it means it's time to come back together. We have one more presentation for the day and we will start the discussion on how we want to do the committees. Awesome. A ll right. A ll righty folks, we are just aboutready for our final presentation today. T he Washington

Metropolitan Area Transit Authority. T hey are going to tell us about the 7000 series rail car. Take it away.
>> Thank you. G ood afternoon everybody. I f you haven't

-- if you are not from Washington you haven't had a chance to ride Metrorail I invite you to do that. M etrorail is not inter

- city car or commuter car we went through a 7

- year customer focused process to find out what your customers want in a new car. A nd we listen very carefully. I t was very intensive when it came to the disability community working with our customers with disabilities, and our accessibility advisory committ ee. We learned a few things there are quite a few improvements in the car in the subway car may have application to inter

- city or commuter cars we thought you would be interested to hear about that. I f we go move to the next slide. I would like to say,

-- I do this? S elf service.

(LAUGHTER) >> BILLY ALTOM: Look down underneath (indicating). >> Okay. I would like to mention that you know Metro

-- I they it's important to say, that Metro's first priority is safety in June 2009 we had a terrible car a ccident involving our 1000 cars where 9 people died. T he new 7000 car was built with safety in mind. I t's built much higher standards for crashworthiness. I t's built to higher standards for fire. I thas event recorders on board. I t has digital video

s urveillance. A nd it has anti climbers built into it to keep the cars in line and up right in case of an accident. S o, having said that, 300 of the new cars we are ordering Kawasaki, it will replace the 1000 cars, cars implicated in the accident. Another 128 will go to the silver line expansion we have 5 new stations opening in western Fairfax. A nd we have a total commitment

-- we are planning on buying 748 cars. S o, let's talk about accessibility. One of the things that we did we worked over a period o f several years talking to our accessibility advisory committee to improve what we thought was already on accessible car. We heard things that weren't intuitive to us. Everybody understands priority seating but what we heard from the community was that

- - there will be pictures as we go into this where you can see some of these things. T hat seats are nice but you need something to held onto to get out of those seats. S o we added 25% more bars. A nd hand holds at the door and throughout the trains than o ur 6000 car that was more than the 1000, the 5000 series the there are vertical poles to help people stand up. We heard certain handholds are better for different people. T hey are great for people standing up to hold on to. A nd people were saying that. One of the things that we did was we added a privacy screenin our priority seating located in the center of the car

alongside either door what we heard was that it's nice to have priority seating right where you can get to it but that means if you are ne ar the door you are in the middle of rush hour. People are coming in and out of the cars with bags and everything. You are liable to get hit. T hey wanted protection. I t's an accessibility requirement but it improved the riding experience. T hey asked for that. T here are four priority seats for people with disabilities and seniors at the center doors. O ne of the things it should be in the same place we know where it's at we don't have to look for it. At the same time our customers use wheelchairs told us it's nice to get in the car but I like to get out of the traffic. S o, we created parking areas on either side of the middle door opposite the priority seating especially colored flooring designated as wheelchair parking areas there is a symbol on the wall. A nd something we hadn't thought of they used U

- shaped grab bar right there at the station. T he idea was whichever way you pull in or back in there is a vertical bar to hold on to if you don't like that there is a horizontal bar. Similar to the des igns that the car seats. S o, people who use wheelchairs can get out of traffic and have something to hold on to as the train goes down the road. I heard it was nice to be able to park your wheelchairssome customers said we want to go in one door and out the

door. We increased aisle width from 32 to 34 inches to better accommodate that. We had it tested on the mockups they said they were fine with it. You can go from one end of the car of the other there are priority seating and wheelchair parking area we put emergency call buttons at both ends of the car and the center of the car no matter where you at you can get to the intercom and get to the train operator. O ne of the things that we were told was you cannot provide too much visual information about what car this is, where it's going and where I am at. S o, we do have two ceiling mounted displays providing line station and destination information in the 6000 series we improved that and added four more wall

- mounted displays providing information. N o m atter where you are in the car, if you can't hear the announcements I will get to that in a moment, you are going to be able to see what station you are at the next station during the whole process of the trip. Our customers told us they wanted us to autom ate the announcements in the trains. We have done it in the buses all of our buses have automated announcements in them. Providing cross streets and major stops and so forth. I t works. P eople like that. O ne thing they tell us in a crowded bus, if you can't see outside don't know where you are at you are can hear

-- you can hear where you are at. A nd ourcustomers who road traps told us that's important as well.

We needed to be able to hear that. We have done quite a few things with priority seating in our cars. O ne of the problems the subway system has it doesn't have conductors we don't have operational personnel back there to enforce priority seating rules so we have put strong seating signage in there. We made the priority seats a different colo r. A nd we have had educational campaigns to try to get our other customers to

-- the right of some of our customers to use the seats. We have something in Metro

-- if you haven't ridden the system you might want to look down if you do ride the system
as you board the car we have something called a gap reducer. On a standard 3

- inch gap we have taken up half of that with a gap reducer. A nd we did that some time ago. I t was in reaction to comments from customers who use wheelchairs that any gap is bad. I t doesn't work for me. M y wheels can get stuck in there. S o, we do have to respect car dynamics and safety envelopes but we took as much of it out as we could. A bout half of that gap is filled up with a gap reducer. It's attached to the side of the car

. I t's expendable made out of a hard scrubbable rubber in case we hit the platform. A nd we do pay attention to it. I t works. O ur customers who use wheelchairs tell us it works. O ne of the side benefits is we no longer have people

-- universal design we no longer havepeople stepping into the hole. We used to have customers

step into the hole and their leg would get stuck. A nd we have been able to stop counting those accidents you would have to have awfully small foot to put the foot down with the gap reducer there. T his wasn't intuitive to us. T hey told us all destination signs as they pull into the station should be the same color. We should tell our customer what color line they are on blue red yellow orange silver green

-- silver soon, green lin es. T he bars at the side should indicate colors as you see the car coming out of the at any knell into the station you don't have to look for the word you see the color and you know that that is the train that you want. We alternate between for example b etween blue and yellow trains or green and yellow depends on what line you are on. So, one thing that our customers told us every time we talked to them we need to do something about the PA system. The PA system in the car is analog. A nd they are pretty old. And sometimes they are hard to hear. A nd old is hard to compete with the train the noise in the train station. You have cars arriving customer noise. A nnouncements in the station. We said we could do better we listened to that. We went to a digi tal system. W hen they are automated they will happen when they are supposed to. One thing that we also heard we tried this in the 6000cars we used to have stanchions we still do on some cars.

Near the car door opening. A nd our customers who use adaptive mobility devices said can you get them out of there. The reason being they are a roadblock. You can't get into the car, if there is a pole attached to the pole are a lot of people who like to hold on to the pole. T hey plug up the inside of the car. A nd you know, it keeps people from getting in and out. We removed the poles added hand grabs throughout the cars it actually, again universal design what we find it encourages people to move away from the door which speeds loading and unloading. A nd also makes it easier for customers with disabilities to get in. We have improved our flooring. O ne of the things that we heard we don't want slippery. We found the most nonslip material that we could find and we are outfitting the floors. We like that becau se we don't have to clean carpets it's better for our customers. I f you had to clean carpets in 1100

- some rail cars you would know what cleaning carpets is all about. V inyl seat colors a small thing we thought about going to clam shell type seating the c ustomers said we prefer to the comfortable. We have seat covers they are indestructible but we are going to continue with that. A nd the disability community said well that's not accessibility issue either we want the padded seats as well. S o, hear is so me pictures. I think this is a prettygood picture that documents the handholds the grab bars are

on every seat. I f you look down there is a little stanchion out of every seat. O ne of the things that we are able to do with this besides increasing the ai sle width was to increase

-- because we redesigned the seats. T he seats were designed back in the early '70s to provide more leg room between the seats so you know, you still get to sit on a padded seat. A nd you are going to be able to stretch your legs a little bit more than you used to.
>> Excuse me, could we get rid of those lights?
>> The overheads. I am glad you mentioned lights. I forgot something the customers told us. I didn't put it

-- >> One of the things that we did the

-- did our customers told us to improve the lighting in the vestibule area and we were able to increase the lighting there and just makes it easier for everybody. A nd for persons with low vision it is an accessibility issue, it's not spoken to directly in the ADA regulations but they told us it would be helpful so we did that. A ll right. I think this is a good representation of how open the car is. You are looking at the center doors, and you can see the priority seating on either side you can also seat the wheelchair parki ng area. T his is an all graphic it doesn't show the floor with the different colored parking area you could see the ISA symbol on the wall. F olks out of trafficyou see the U

- shaped grab rails. You see it around the

system map. A nd down on the right si de toward the end, you can see one of the destination signs that's on the wall. T here is four of them on the walls two on the ceilings. You can see the privacy panel on the left with an M on it. T hat protects customers sitting in the priority seating fr om getting beat up by book bags and people rushing to get out of the car. I t makes them go around the priority seating people aren't going to hit them as they go through. We thought you might be interested in a destination sign. This is one. A s the trai n stops at a station it will light up that particular destination. A nd anybody looking up can see well this is where I am at this is where I need to go how many stops do you have that kind of thing. S o there are a couple on other side there are two overh ead displays. Here is another close up of the priority seating area. Again, I think one of the reasons why I included this every meeting I went to I heard we need a privacy panel. We need to get out of traffic. I t's great you provided us a seat protect us from the people going in and out. S o, there is another representation of that. And that is the end of the presentation. W hat I did want to do is take the time to share with you that we have invested a lot of time and effort in making improvements to t he cars,most of them were small. M ost of them are not in the regs

customer said if you want me to ride Metrorail you could do these small things to make it easier we will be more likely to do that. I am here to answer any questions if you have them.
>> BILLY ALTOM: Perfect. C rystal and Terry. >> Crystal: I don't really have a question, I just want to say that I admire all of the work and all of the thought that went into that. A nd especially when you say several things weren't in the regs that you dec ided to do, it's real customer service. I mean that's a lot of

-- it takes a lot of time to listen to people and to really hear what the

-- maybe they didn't say they wanted privacy panel maybe they didn't want to get hit with a backpack what is the solut ion. I can tell you put a lot of thought into it. I t looks like you went and found
answers. S o I applaud you all for all of that work. I f there is any other system in the country that has done something like that it would be great to hear another syste m story if someone has some new

-- put that much work into it like real recent I think would be useful for this group as well. >> If I can, thank you for that. I am sure other transit authorities are doing the same thing I am not so much bragging on Metro

. I think one of the points that I am trying to make is all of the things that we found that customers with disabilities were telling us could help them could helpeverybody it gets back to universal design. T he best example

the folks using wheelchairs t hat told us it's hard to get in the
car. We don't care if it's ADA compliant gap, gaps are bad. We found by doing something to the extent it's possible to fix that gap, we also increased safety for everybody. People stopping stepping in the hole. You k now, it's

-- I think if you listen to customers, they will tell you what you need to do. This was a customer

- focused process. We don't buy rail cars they

-- often they last 40 years. We were trying our best to get it right. >> Terry Pacheco: Acouple o f different questions on the

-- on your signage particularly for audibility. T he signs that you are putting

-- the additional signs I have to take this off the additional signs that you are putting in the cars are those going to be

-- to have any kind of audible

-- >> The signs themselves are visual by the car has both visual and auditory components. A nd you know, we had the six signs in the car for people who can't hear. We have them everywhere you can see them no matter where they are at. The sound sy stem we have upgraded from analog to digital. So that you will actually hear good, clean messages. You will be able to hear it. A nd those

-- those announcements will provide the same information that you are getting on the rail cars through the signs. So, for example, if you are at astation it will tell you L'Enfant next station archives doors

opening on the left it will give you the directions that you need to use the system if you are relying on your ears. >> Terry Pacheco: You are getting some of t hat information, that's true. T he sign that someone is looking at is always giving them more information. >> That's true, but the auditory announcement doesn't give you all of the stations all the way to the end of the line it will tell you yellow line st ation next station which door is opening. >> Terry Pacheco: W hat about the outside signage like it is now with little green light next to Greenbelt. You are saying we are going to continue to have the signs in different colors which I think is wonderful, I pushed Barbara and Pat on that. B ut my question is: W hen are people going to know standing on the platform that the next train coming in is a green as opposed to a yellow line audibly.
>> That's a great question. I f you stand there you can see the si gn what color. A s the train pulls in there is external speakers it will announce to the platform, you know, blue line to

-- you know, to Rosland and you will know that that is the train you want or don't want for you to get in. We are trying to provide t he information audibly and visually at the same time.>> Terry Pacheco: A re you going

-- my last question.

Are you going to be doing anything about making the

-- the signs in the stations you know the ones that say, Silver Spring six cars in four minutes

. I know there was some talk on the advisory committee a few years ago about making those, creating a way for people to access that information audibly have you done any progress on that.
>> I would like to be able to tell you detail. I will tell you thi s, we have engineers working on them. W here they are exactly on that I don't know. I can't tell you. >> Terry Pacheco: T hank you.
>> We heard the community on that. We are rebuilding Metro. I t was put together almost 40 years ago. 4 0 years ago is a t echnology from the last century. We are making some improvements across the board they are looking at that I do know that.
>> Terry Pacheco: T hank you. >> BILLY ALTOM: Michael. A nd who did I have? >> Mike Wetherell: J ust to address that last question, we are putting in the digital signs to tell you when the next train comes in we have it on half of the system. A nd there is

-- there is an audio that goes with that. B ut it doesn't tell you what happens you get a scroll of the different trains sort of li ke what you guys get. B ut when a train is approachingthe station, the next train up is

-- it gets announced it says

that the next train to 180th street arrives in four minutes it's a count down. T hey count down the next train. I t tells you when it's ap proaching. T hat is something that's achievable. It's a difficult thing to do as we are finding, you no he, if you have the infrastructure to do that, on an older system we had on half of the system it's something that can be done. B ut we are looking for innovative ways to get the rest of the system up that's something that can be achieved. >> I know the MBJ in Boston has done an awful lot with that that's a really old system. T hey have managed to do it. >> Mike Wetherell: S o if you ride the RIT in New York you have countdown clocks what the next trains are and also tells you how long

-- >> Jim Weisman: W hat did you think of the privacy panels? >> Mike Wetherell: We do use privacy panels on our commuter trains but not on the rapid

-- on the subways. We use the bars.
>> Jim Weisman: T hat seat by the door is

-- you like to get it

-- >> Mike Wetherell: Actually, what we are going to do on the next fleet we will make the space larger what you will have

-- one of the things that we found that you have a lo t ofpeople that congregate in front of the door the reason there is

we have 5 and a half million people that ride the subway every day. E ach one of them has to go from one place to the next. So, what they will do board at a certain location say okay I d on't have to move from here I know when I get to my station the stairwell is right there. S o, what we are going to do is put a niche next to the door so they can do that but they are not keeping other people from going in and out. I t's something that yea h, we are looking at passenger flow and those things. But, yes, putting the

-- putting the plexiglass doesn't really work very well on the subway. N ew York City subway it's a harsh environment. I t's things that work in one place you know like on the com muter train don't work in the city. Because you just do

-- you have 5 and a half million people a lot of them are kids. A nd you know, we deal with

-- we deal with making

-- when we accept a car, we can't accept a gap where somebody could stick paper insi de of it we are so subject to vandalism and subject to things that maybe somebody else isn't. B ut we are doing everything that we can, obviously, to help passenger flow and to help people's ability to get on and off the train. I t helps everybody. I t hel ps the person getting on the train it helps us also be able to move from station to station and to it efficiently so

-- >> BILLY ALTOM: Awesome. D ennis?>> Dennis Cannon: T here is transportation research

board underway to develop a guide book on mining t he gap essentially, ways to get rid of the gap. S ince the gap came up here I want to maybe give a little background of what the current regulation talks about 3 inches because when we were riding the

-- when we were writing the reg that's what it looked l ike was possible. We got from engineers a bunch of data about you know plus or minus variations and so forth. And it looked like if you took all of the things that added up plus 3 inches was the minimum. You could actually get close. We know that's not true anymore and several years ago Marta, in Atlanta, the engineers developed a door sill attachment that screws on the outside, they retrofitted that to the current cars, and it reduced the gap to slightly less than 2 inches. Because you only care about the gap at the doors you don't care about the cars themselves being close. A nd they now Marta now puts it in its specification WMATA added the excluded rubber which reduces the gap significantly. S o the 3 inches is really not the gold standard anymore it looks like 2 inches is a closer fit and, again, if you write the regulation the way that I think it should be written like the

-- what's in currently proposed for bus rapid transit. I nstead of having a lot of, you know, different solutions for different situations, itsays if the gap is greater than 2 inches you have to do

something else. O r in greater than 5/8 inches vertically. Instead of trying to

-- people trying to figure out which gap applies to which station, and most of the engineers that I talk to on the phone when this regulation came out were very upset about the 3

- inch max because they thought it was a requirement. A nd they said it couldn't be done in commuter rail and inter

- city rail. S o, I think it's easier to write the standard in such a way that says, if it's bigger than X, you have to do something, and we know that in rapid rail these days two inches is doable. >> BILLY ALTOM: Chris, do you have a comment? >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Just wanted to offer, if folks are interested in understandi ng the current (inaudible) accessibility stats for commuter rail or for light rail, I can walk you through and pull in Gary. G ary and I wrote them, and I am happy to kind of walk folks through it. I t doesn't necessarily mean what we end up procuring in t he next five years is going to have everything in that accessibility spec but it sets up as go if not stronger than what WMATA has done for their (inaudible). I can't wait to get on the 7000. I also can't wait until we have lights on the platform so we c an see what is going on at the platform.

(LAUGHTER)>> CHRISTOPHER HART: But I put that out to folks

because we spent over two years developing these certification for accessibility. A nd get right down to handholds and stanchions and where

-- where are the visual messaging. A nd, really, ultimately what are you putting up on your audio and visual messaging. B ecause it's really key to actually not pollute your automatic messaging with nonessential messages. A nd the last point Terry raised the countdown in stations. At least in Boston, we have now rewired the subway the orange line to help if the train is 5 minutes away it says the train is 5 minutes away. A nd then about a minute away it announces it again. A nd then about 20 seconds out it says you know, forest hills train arriving. So, that gives everyone a warning that on the visual screen as well. >> Mike Wetherell: I f I could add something on the automated announcements how are you updating that. D o you do a download to do it or do

-- how do they make the changes to it can you

-- >> If you would like the technical details we can connect you with our rail engineers.
>> Mike Wetherell: O kay. T he only reason why I say it you may find that we found is that okay so you have the automated announcement s system it's working real fineeverybody loves the system. B ut then you get a sponsor of

some station and they want to have their name put in it and so now you got to change the system. A nd what we found was it was taking us 3 months to do a fleet of 16 00 cars just one fleet to change. S o then within that three months inevitably something else comes up we need to make the change. S o we had to go to and we are in periodic. W hat we do store up changes and then we do periodic automated announcement syste m upgrades I was curious what you were experiencing so far. I t becomes something that becomes a full

- time job for people to just keep those automated announcements up. T hat's one of the things we are approaching is we have a new fleet we are getting we a re going to put a wireless system in so that you could do this wirelessly. S o we could take three months of work cut it down to probably two days.
>> I understand we are going wireless forwarned is forearmed I will pass your name on to a fellow named Joe Reynolds who owns our fleet, he is the chief engineer.
>> Great.
>> Ed Hoff: O ne of the challenges we face in Jersey Transit is maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago the overhead signs on the platforms this is relatable to the vehicles we will embark upon this soon. 12

- inch square CRT's cathode ray tubestelevision that hung above the platform or perhaps they might

have been split perhaps really small you had to put a lot of abbreviations ary where maybe had 10 characters per line three lines you talked about the ne xt train coming. C ame along our high tech stuff LCDs, LEDs plasma screens we could put more information on there. L o and behold we do. A nd then but you also have to follow regulations requiring you know the font size requirements when you go over a cert ain height requirement. S o, when I approached the people who want to put all of the information on there you can't put all of that information on there and maybe it a half inch high, put it 10 feet off the ground put less information. N o, no, this is
ess ential information. Well, it only became essential in the last 5, 10 years, before that they had three lines maybe 5 characters up there when can it essential to put the next 12 trains coming through the station on that platform and what's going to be the re. T hat's one of the challenges is that

-- there are within organizations like New Jersey transit and others there is the want to provide as much information as possible. A nd the thought this is essential information. So as we do this whether this our facilities on the vehicles as Chris mentioned we need to examine that exactly. I don't know if we do it by regulation we need to educate the service providers and everybody involved in the issue to know that it'simportant to provide the, if not the exact information that you

are providing audibly visually and audibly something very close to that. A nd so

-- it's not insurmountable there is a way to do it we have to pay attention to that as well. T hank you. >> BILLY ALTOM: Over there. >> Uwe Rutenberg: You saw on some of the pictures the place

-- sorry. You showed on some of your pictures the

-- sorry. T he place for a wheelchair. D esignated with where the wheelchair sign. T hen you showed an area where you have priority seating and it also has a wheelc hair sign. Is

-- I go backwards for a second. I n the transit bus industry we have the wheelchair position with flip seats and it's the same area for priority seating and the wheelchair. T he problem is this can come to conflict. You can have let's say two elderly people sitting there and suddenly somebody in the wheelchair comes along who lass the priority in this place. My question here was: D o you have the same kind of policy here in the area where you show priority seating is this also the area for the wheelchair and if not what kind of experience have you had in this area.
>> Well, a Metro bus we operate under the theory more is better we have six priority seats they are in the front of the bus. Acouple face forward we have side ways seats. A ndt he priority seats do flip up on the side to accommodate

wheelchairs we have a real advantage of being able to have that configuration and we have an operator right there who can ask people to move out of the seats who can flip the seat up and proceed with assisting the customer with tie downs. We don't have that in a subway car. We are not

-- we thought about it, we wouldn't put priority seats and ask somebody who uses a wheelchair or somebody else to flip that seat up. We thought the best thing to do wa s to provide priority seats mark them clearly as priority seats. A nd then have two areas near there on the other side of the door that are clearly delineated as wheelchair parking areas. A nd they do that different colored floor areas there is a sign on t he wall. A nd you know we have tried to provide what we can, for example, we put our emergency intercom button if you need assistance you can hit it from there along with the handholds. We would not put priority seating there because we think it would be self defeating people would sit in it somebody would ask them to move and if you did ask them to move you have to flip up the seats. >> They are competing with people standing rather than sitting. >> BILLY ALTOM: Chris, did you have another comment? >> CH RISTOPHER HART: I am glad you brought that up.And I will share MBTA bought heavy rail cars Siemens cars, at

that time we had not finished the vehicle access act, and we ended up with one wheelchair, and the supervisor goes to the airport you can guess wh at (inaudible). O kay? A nd then we have a flip up seat. F lip up, it was a bench seat, and of course you get on it at any given moment that seat is always down. A nd that is why folks like (inaudible) have ordered seats in rapid transit it does not work well. A nd when you have got a service at the airport or train station where you know you have got luggage. >> BILLY ALTOM: Any other questions or comments my colleagues on the phone do you have one in the back come to the mic, please. >> Yes, thank you. O n the subject of flip up seats that's another issue on the light rail in the subpart D side there is a lot of light rail systems use the flip up seats they are sprung so they are always in the up position until somebody pushes them down and sits on them. We have had varying interpretations from FTA from the civil rights office as to whether or not those are ADA compliant or not. I think that's another clarification that may be needed to subpart D. >> BILLY ALTOM: Any other questions or comments? >> Questi on. >> When you said you added 2 inches to the aisle widthfrom 32 to 34 inches did you reduce the seat width or did it

come from the side walls? >> That came from improvements in seat design from 1970 we had big bulky frames they took up and inch on eithe r side of the aisle when we reduced the frames and added padding we got more leg and aisle room. T hat was part of the plan. We wanted to provide as much place for people and reduce the space occupied by equipment and it paid up all around. >> Okay. T han k you. >> BILLY ALTOM: F rank? >> Frank Maldari: C an you put that slide up? >> I am not sure I know how to do that. W hich sign do you have? >> Frank Maldari: Yes, this one. F rank Maldari MTA I was wondering where the idea for the symbol priority seating came from? I t shows a person in a wheelchair that's really not the intent of that location so

-- do you have another location that's for somebody who is in a wheelchair? A s it says in the sign it's for the elderly as well. I am asking the question of the Access Board do you know where that symbol came from for priority seating.
>> Jim Weisman: I t's provided from the bus with dual
use.>> Frank: I t's

--

>> It's the international symbol of accessibility it's used for accessibility guidance.
>> Frank : I t was just a question it seems to be misleading I know our customers gets confused they are not sure if it's wheelchair or priority seating that sign is clear if you don't read the sign you don't notice there is a difference. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: So, d epending on the U.S. system or if you go overseas, you get a combination of symbols. A nd it might be an elder with a cane or walker a woman that is always pregnant as well as the ISA symbol. I t varies by system. A nd that same (inaudible) it's also on th e poster just to reinforce their priority. >> Jim Pecht: J im Pecht, Access Board. T he current regulation doesn't require the use of the international symbol it just requires that you have a same designated priority seating that's all it says. I f you wa nt to get picky that is not the international symbol it's one of the things that they sort of designed and modified and morphed you notice he doesn't have any toes, his head is not connected. T he international symbol is a very specific thing. A nd it's in tended to be a symbol for all disabilities. I t shows a person in a chair but it's intended to cover accessibility for everybody with a disability hearing site mobility, everything.>> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you. J im Weisman.

>> Jim Weisman: I don't want to beat the symbol to death. B ut the ambiguity of it, though, is frustrating to people with disabilities all the time. I t's not illegal to use the accessible stall in the men's room if you are not disabled, it is illegal to park without a permit with the ex act same symbol. Some disabled people think it's illegal for abled people to use the stall, some able

- bodied people think

-- some people think they can use the parking because they can use the stall. It's created a bit of a mess. N ew York City has done a variation on it for accessible taxis they thought it was brilliant, which shows a guy in a wheelchair hailing a cab, you know this symbol with the arm up.

(LAUGHTER) >> Jim Weisman: S o, soon someone will put a finger on the arm. (LAUGHTER) >> Th at's an inaccessible cab. (LAUGHTER) >> James Lucas. you are still on the subject if you go to the previous slide there is a picture above the seating area just like that with a different

-- not the previous one go back again. >> Go ahead.>> Lucas: O r is it forward?

>> This slide (indicating).
>> James Lucas: T here you go, you look carefully there, you have got an elderly person, a pregnant woman and someone holding a baby, it looks like it's solving the problem we are talking about. I wonder why th at sign, in that picture there is a wheelchair symbol in another picture. >> I can answer that, that's because I took slides from various parts of the development of the car and some of them are slightly different. T here is a sign there

-- I will check wh ich sign we will have in the final version. I think it's closer to the other sign that has the ISA and the Federal law requires you to give up this seat. B ut one of the things that we did as we developed the car was to test signs on customers to see what they thought of them. A nd I think it goes to Jim's
concern. T rying to get information to people in a way that they could understand. T hat is something that I am going to check on when we get back. We do have a test cars four cars in Washington we are looking at. T hey are not going to begin production of the cars until mid year this year. S o it's something we still have time to tinker with I think. I will take the issue back to Metro. >> BILLY ALTOM: Marilyn and Terry.
>> Marilyn Golden: I wanted to say Jim is right, there isall kinds of contradictions and funny and not so funny

situations that have stemmed from

-- the problem comes from the fact that we have come to learn that it only makes sense to use symbols that are internationally known and th at have international status by being present and part of an international code document or similarly statured document that has international agreement. B ecause
-- because otherwise we have people making up symbols for things, and you really could have c onfusion. S o, for example, the ANSI committee there was testimony by a gentleman who represents industry he had nothing to do with in the disability committee he said my dad would be confused by the different designs does it mean something different than accessible? You know, so there is reasons for uniformity but then there are problems with uniformity. We haven't found a way to deal with that contradiction. H aving said that, other than where the ADAAG or neighbor the ANSI standards which becomes a sta ndard for state codes require the international symbol of access which are only in a few places you are free to use anything else elsewhere. I n a sense you can have whatever fun you want like by designing a new one. N o one is going to

-- you know, nothin g can happen to you because you are not violating anything. B ut this is why

-- you know, this is why the thing is used. A nd everyone

-- you knoweveryone in the disability community, which has as a high

priority the issue of cross disability and issue of representing each disability equally. T his flies against them

-- we are like gosh that's painful. B ut we haven't come up with a better way to address this problem of international agreement among
-- on symbols. >> BILLY ALTOM: Terry. >> Terry Pacheco: I just wanted to say I have run into a couple of places I want to say that I think Boston is one of them but you could back me up maybe on this Chris. I think what is really important to do with

-- with symbols is to, first of all, use logic. A nd one of the things that I have noticed in on some trains and public vehicles is where there is a place to put a wheelchair you use that symbol. W here you have got the two seats there for the thing for the non

- wheelchair users you use the symbol

-- there is another one I have seen it used a lot that have two people back to back like if you had seats that were back to back one has a guide dog one has I think orthopedic cane. I t's in silhouette so the hair is white you have covered elderly and the blind you have cover ed the people that use an orthopedic cane and wheelchairs all in two symbols. I t's just something

-- you know, that's the point. Instead of legislating everything sometimes you just need to use logic. A nd that might be helpful for anyone that everwants to look at some symbols.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you Terry. A nd we will let Dennis wrap us up on this.
>> Dennis Cannon: J ust it may be confusing to have it both place but people should understand the ISA does not mean wheelchair. I t means the facility o r whatever meets certain accessibility requirements. A nd it does indeed cover all disabilities, but the fact that they wanted to make it recognizable, easy for people to understand is why it looks like a wheelchair. Remember, the no smoking sign is a red circle with a line over a cigarette. D oes that mean that pipe smoking and cigar smoking are okay? N o. T hat sign is accepted to mean no smoking period, including if you are in Colorado.

(LAUGHTER) >> Dennis Cannon: B ut the ISA doesn't mean wheelch air, people see it on elevators and they think that means it's an elevator for wheelchair users. T he answer is
no. I t means it's an accessible means of vertical access. S o, I do think there is some problem with using it in the two places. B ut that's ba sically because people don't really understand what the ISA stands for. >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you, Dennis. J ust make sure I haven't omitted our friends on the phone any comments orquestions?

>> On the teleconference Ed Steinfield and Linda Martin try hitting star 6 please. T hank you. >> Hi, this is Linda. C an you hear me?
>> I can hear you, Linda.
>> Okay. G reat. I just had one comment about the signage. W hat is currently in the regulation with regard to rail cars on the international symbol talks a bout it should be placed on the exterior of the rail car that is accessible. T here is nothing else about the interior as to which symbol should be used, but I just wanted to second what Dennis just said in the sense that, granted, it looks like a person i n a wheelchair, it is the accepted symbol if you start using other symbols, you
-- you know, you run the risk of people noting what it
means. S o, it's just

-- I know that

-- I know the tendency is to believe there is a priority for where folks sit, but th e reality there is no hierarchy of people with disabilities, you know, a person in a wheelchair or more severe disability being treated anymore fairly than someone with a lesser disability. S o, or given more services or whatever. T here is no priority in the law about that. S o, someone in a wheelchair could just as easily transfer to the seats that are marked with the wheelchair above them and, you know, steal their wheelchair in a subway car as they could in an inner

- city rail car theywould have to tran sfer quickly to get off at the stop but

theoretically they could do that. T hat's all I had. T hank you. >> BILLY ALTOM: You are welcome, thank you Linda. Thank you very much for the presentation. Yay.

(APPLAUSE) >> BILLY ALTOM: I thank you all for your presentations today, very informative. U p next I love delegating stuff. We have our list from Attachment B of all of the issues we have been talking about we need to figure out how to address those I will turn it over to Paul. A nd allow him to run t his for a moment.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Thank you. E ssentially, if you read the preparation's E

- mail I sent out to you on the 7th staff here at the Access Board discussed how to move forward. We thought one way that we are presenting to you an idea you guys d ecide what you want to do. You could modify our idea come up with new idea, you run the show in this area we wanted to present it, we were suggesting we are suggesting that you break into three subcommittees the number three comes up, I have three rooms t o use three staff members to cover you, four, sorry, we can't support that. T he value of some committees obviously meeting here it's face to face, our goal is for you to function outside of this meeting via conference call, et cetera. D o a lot of work fr om whereveryou are over the phone line so when you meet in April there is

some progress made. N ow, if you look at item 8, we broke the subcommittees into three titles, in the parentheses after the titles we basically gave you the main headings out of Att achment B, the issues list. S o, for example, communications would include lighting, and service animal relief area issues circulation includes boarding and lighting. Onboard circulation, wheelchair spaces and other seating. Special spaces would be restr ooms, sleeping compartments and dining. We realize if he look at the issues list there is overlap, but there is enough of the topics that fall in the categories, if the committee agree to go to subcommittee. The subcommittees could establish priorities a nd decide how do they interact with other subcommittee where there is overlap. M aybe work with subcommittees for the next number of meetings we make progress and have to restructure based upon what the issues are remaining or what areas overlap. N ow, to move us in the area we thought it would be wise to give you a thought process in terms of what we want from you. I f you could do this as a full committee or other method but in issue number 7, we spelled out what you need to provide us. Remember, Marsha gave you a presentation at the November meeting, we asked you essentially to look at the guidelines, are there provisions thisthere that need to be changed. A re there gaps that need to

be filled in. T he guidelines that currently exist set out minimum re quires they are not optimum, they don't necessarily guarantee good design, they are minimum requirements. S o as a starting point we ask you in the recommendations you are providing us the minimum requirements, okay? We encourage examples because we did
a sk don't worry about code language, tell us what you want. For example, if you want a U

- shaped grab bar, fine, a U

- shaped grab bar in the toilet room give us a picture like this example here. T hat's great. A ll right? We are not going to try to make it t oo good for you. Give us your recommendation what the minimum requirement. You have to point out what the mode you are dealing with, is it light rail? Alot of discussion was focused on inter

- city rail and commuter. S ome discussion on the other modes. You need to spell out is this recommendation good for all three or four? A ll five? Actually basically have four and then we reference high speed rail the inter

- city you know how it works. S o, give us an idea of what vehicle types you are pointing out. That is two issues

-- issues rationale benefit for persons with disability but it could be benefit for providers. S omebody raised an issue about the problem between a bus and a light rail using the same platform.Okay. Well, there a change may be neces sary that benefits

the provider of the transportation. S o, maybe rationale and benefit are combined together. B ut at this point we are saying what is the benefit and then later you will see on the list what is the cost. A romie at the November meeting po inted out we have to do a regulatory assessment at the Access Board which is certainly a cost benefit analysis. You can look at the current passenger vessel rule and proposed bus rule to give you examples of the regulatory assessment we did. T here are a lot of people with access to impact people with information. O kay. I f we are proposing that we make doors wider the new requirement minimum is 33 inches clear width. T his is the benefit we are spelling out and the rationale for that. N ow, let's get dow n to what is the impact. The impact may be very minimal. I f it's really, really minimal we don't need a number. I f there is a cost the cost could be dollar or space cost could be revenue cost you may not be able to immediately get it to us, you think it 's a good idea because you know the following organizations rail providers do it. Well, they do it here in Boston. T hey do it here in New York. Well that's information that we would find helpful. Now, we would like you to focus on who does it in the Un ited States because obviously they are subject to federal laws but we are interested in who does it overseas if the Germans do it,throw that in too. T hen lastly, this is where if you come up

with an idea but you really can't get all of this cost informat ion and no one is doing it here it's in a report. P ut it in there. T he reason is sometimes we can take the report and work our way back going into that research and find that information that we need for doing the assessment. S o, we think if this is what you need to give us, in your final report to the Access Board when you are doing your subcommittees if that's the way you are doing or whatever methodology you are doing to revise things our recommendation is to start thinking what are going to be the mi nimum what are the benefits what are impacts you guys are deciding when you look at the information is this something we feel needs to be presented
on. D o we need to develop some other options. I mean that's part of your thinking process. S o, we can sup port three subcommittees. We have sort of given you an idea of what three topics would be. T here is like I said overlap problems. We gave you a list of what we thought your first steps would be. I t's not to resolve issues it's sort of set up your organ izational structure who is going to collect what information on certain issues. I think an important part is to make sure everybody understanding the issues some are very clear like increased lift capacity to 800 pounds that's pretty clear. S ome others t here may need to be more discussionabout what somebody meant when they raised it particularly

since the Access Board staff might have boiled it down too much. We see the point if you go to subcommittees, now, remember a subcommittee does not make decisio ns for the full committee. T he subcommittee may come to a conclusion they present the information to the full committee you may not have been a member. I f you are disagreeing with our conclusion, you are part of the full committee. I deally if you are in volved in conference calls and so forth other people can join in who are not officially members of the subcommittee. If you remember from the protocol anybody in the audience is allowed to participate as if they are a full committee member. The only rest riction the chair of the subcommittee has to be a committee member we recommend a vice

- chair they should be a committee member in case the chair can't show up. That's a quick and dirty for the schedule we are running out of time I will turn it back to Bil ly. >> BILLY ALTOM: Dennis, do you have a question?
>> Dennis Cannon: I had a comment. I wanted to make sure with regard to the section on second one I think on pathways or something that the subcommittees look at scoping as well as technical provisions

. F or example, how many wheelchair spaces should there be. R ight now

-- >> PAUL BEATTY: That's one of the issues on the issuelist. >> Dennis Cannon: R ight now the rule says at least one,

not more than two, but no more than two. I t came up in earlier discussions with the Representative Hoyer, some of the folks in the rail community wanted to create a single car that was accessible where they could put everybody which the disability community referred to as the cattle car approach. And so, that was very clearly struck down, something that the committee and the

-- and eventually the legislation says is not to happen. O n the other hand, every other kind of rail system has a requirement that's for inter

- city. I t has a requirement for two spaces rapid rai l and so forth. A nd when my wife and I were travelling if we wanted to go on Amtrak, she used a power chair as well. We would have had to be in separate cars. S o, I just want to raise that issue of how many spaces you actually have

-- >> PAUL BEATTY: T hat's on the issues list.
>> Dennis Cannon: I want to make sure everybody discusses that.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Well we see you looking at all of the issues at least the subcommittee come to a conclusion on it you all come to the table with concerns. A nd peop le should have an opportunity to discuss their persons.

-- their
concerns. At least we would like to see it that way. S o that'sthere. A nd remember you can add things to the issues list so

Billy? >> BILLY ALTOM: Do we have discussion from the audience, what would be the pleasure? >> Dennis Cannon: A nd 5 restrooms in every car. >> PAUL BEATTY: You need me to add that?

(LAUGHTER) >> BILLY ALTOM: Yes, Jon. >> Jon Holbrook: O ne issue to breaking up into
comm ittees that would be the most efficient from a manufacturer's standpoint, we are going to have interests in every area. A nd case in point I found some information on inductive loop I am not electrical guy, but I found it and I researched it a little bit a nd got interested in it but I am more interested in circulation and dimensional. S o how can a person be involved in a couple directions?
>> PAUL BEATTY: One answer to that is we are hoping that most of the discussions will first occur on the conference
c all second if you are really not involved remember the subcommittees have to presented their recommendations to the full committee. A nd some places we see a complete repeat of what was

-- if somebody developed a presentation for the subcommittee on a part icular idea and that was sold to the subcommittee to make a certain recommendation theymay find it necessary to repeat the presentation to the full

committee. We see subcommittees make a report he we looked at the following issues this dropped out. O h, this is my issue that dropped out. Well, then we will have to have feedback about why it dropped out and whether we need to set it aside for it to be discussed at the full committee level. I mean in some ways we are not exactly sure how this completely p lays out we see some learning curves we see interaction between subcommittees and we see reformatting subcommittees down the road to deal with things that fall into two different camps jurisdiction particularly communication issues where you have some of t he communication issues are in the sections like sleeping compartments it might be good to talk about that with the communications committee as well as the special space committee, special space committee. >> Dennis Cannon: T he subcommittees are open to
o ther people. I f you have somebody in your organization who is good on a different subject than you, have them join the other subcommittee and you can get your organizations views heard without having to run back and forth from one committee to another.
>> BILLY ALTOM: Yes. >> PAUL BEATTY: Melissa.
>> Well, a lot

-- as Paul, said a lot of work will probablybe done by conference call. A nd the conference calls should

be open to everybody who is on the committee and subcommittee and so that way you can parti cipate. We could make the effort to not schedule them at the same time. >> Jon Holbrook: I f everybody had a listing of when they would take place maybe

-- maybe I would only want to put my two cents and communication on a couple of things if that happene d in one or two conference calls I wouldn't have to carry on to the bitter end.
>> PAUL BEATTY: One of the things that we recommended Paul speaking again in terms of not priority order issue number 8 item number 8 in my preparations E

- mail we spelled out essentially 6 things that we wanted you to do maybe you can think of other things too. O ne was to arrange conference calls and then come back to the full committee make the reports so the circulation is going to have a conference call on this date. A nd communication is going to have it on this indicate. Recognizing that you may not be a date good for you at this point it's the best we can do. >> Jon Holbrook: Yeah, and there is no reason why if you miss one you can't E

- mail the playe rs and

-- >> PAUL BEATTY: Our goal as staff is to make sure that you feel comfortable to agree that your issue was addressedor at least considered okay? A nd that you had say on an

issue. I f you see a subcommittee develop something that was of concern for you, you had no chance for input. Again it has to be presented to the full committee. We are not going to say, nope you have to bless that subcommittee report. N o it comes to the full committee and you better make sure the rationale that comes with t he subcommittee report is good rationale that may answer your question or address your
concerns. O r hey you didn't think about X, Y and Z after I read your report. Work with us on that I am not sure how it will completely fall out. >> BILLY ALTOM: Actual ly, I am thinking in the essence of time it's right at the 5 o'clock hour we have public comment period we have to hit we should do that because I think there may be transportation issues for folks that may have to get home I don't want to run pastime we w ill hit the subcommittee suggestion again first thing in the morning is that agreeable with folks? S o, having said that open it up for the public comment period. B ob, you have hand up. F irst please say your name. >> Bob Re u ter Access Systems and a few o ther people. As Dennis Cannon said, he and I were on the original committee that wrote the regulations there are a lot of artifacts the 30 by 54

- inch lift was the flexible

-- it's thebiggest lift you could fit in the bus, that's the only reason for

the s ize there is no reason for it we wanted to have a bigger lift back then. T he PRIIA designs I have seen some of the earlier question may be secretly released to me California cars and they are sticking in the cabbage cars especially baggage cars they are s ticking the bicycle racks in there, the lower level is going to be restroom, wheelchairs, bicycle racks. A nd that's it. A nd I think, okay. T hat's not exactly the concept and certainly it goes back to the disabled ghetto we had in the cattle cars back in the 20

- some
- odd years ago. I think that's something to be considered. I saw something unique in Japan, maybe we should consider it here, floor operated flushes. I t was a dome in the floor stuck up a half inch or so, only 2 inches in diameter, you roll o n it, step on it, whatever, it flushed the toilet just enough out of the way so you didn't accidentally hit it. I t was a great concept, you didn't have to have any special knowledge to be able to flush that darn thing. A s far as the second levels I have ridden all over the country. You haven't lived until you spent two and a half days crossing the country actually three and a half days in the dungeon in the basement behind the toil let which is what I call the accessible sleeping compartment on the super liners you have a port hole to look at. H e threatened to throw me off on Harpers Ferry I drugmyself down to the sightseer lounge and crawled up to the

seats the difference was unbelievable. I have ridden that God knows how many times it was like I said I stuffed my chair back into one of the luggage space at the bottom of the step, drug myself up the steps and down the hall over the gap and into one of the seats in the sightseer lounge. Took 20 minutes everyone went insane. I t was a significant, major difference in the ride. S o, I think it's important to look at going up there. A nd getting up there, there has got to be a way. I was on the coming up there they had wine tasting, it's in the next car, I never got to the free wine and cheese and stuff I was a little upset there I am never getting a hot coffee

-- hot coffee is out of the question. J ust a tiny little bit of trivia. I n the country's where they drive on the left side of the road, the universal symbol of access is reversed it faces left inst ead of right it's funny the first time I saw it. A nd back to this, this is a question that's come up. F ixed guide way things like people movers in airports rubber tired fixed guide way the FTA seemed to decide bus rapid transit is fixed guide way. F or funding and things. I have yet to figure out why they decided fixed guide way is that within our purview? >> (inaudible) >> I know it's on the original bus rule now the FTA says it's fixed guide way how does it fall in here? T hank you.>> Thank you, Bob.

>> Any other comments? I don't see anybody. A re we free to adjourn? >> BILLY ALTOM: Any last comments from anyone who

-- on the phone Linda you are still with us? >> Dennis Cannon: We decided committee tomorrow >> Linda Martin: S till here, just muted. Nothing. >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you, Linda, appreciate that. We will reconvene tomorrow at 9 o'clock and hit the

-- this suggestion on how we want to structure subcommittees, if we want them or one big huge subcommittee. B ut we will figure it all out. B ut everyone have a great evening. A nd I will see you all back here tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. T his portion of our meeting is adjourned. (End of meeting.)