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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

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 ASRAC COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL PUMPS 

 WORKING GROUP

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 PUBLIC MEETING

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 FRIDAY

 JANUARY 31, 2014

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 The Public Meeting met in Room

8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.,

Washington, D.C., at 8:00 a.m, Doug Brookman,

Meeting Facilitator, presiding.

PRESENT

DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator

LUCAS ADIN, Department of Energy

DANIEL COHEN, Department of Energy

ELIZABETH KOHL, Department of Energy

DOUG RAWALD, Department of Energy

ALSO PRESENT

ROBERT ASDAL, Hydraulic Institute

ROBERT BARBOUR, TACO, Inc.

ROBERT BOTELER, Nidec Motor Corporation

CHARLES CAPPELLINO, ITT Corporation

GREG CASE, Pump Design, Development &

 Diagnostics, L.L.C.

TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation

 Council
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GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor-Owned-

 Utilities

CHARLES FOSTER, Edison Electric Institute

MARK HANDZEL, Xylem Corporation

ALBERT HUBER, Patterson Pump Company

PAUL LIN, Regal Beloit

JOHN MASTERS, Danfoss Group

JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness

 Project

LAURA PETRILLO-GROH, Air-Conditioning,

 Heating, and Refrigeration Institute

DOUGLAS POTTS, American Water

CHARLES POWERS, Flowserve Corporation

 Industrial Pumps

CALLIE REIS, Navigant Consulting

MIKE RIVEST, Navigant Consulting *

STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute

LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency

 Alliance

STEVE THOMPSON, TACO, Inc.

GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos USA

MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council

DANIEL WEINTRAUB, Navigant Consulting

SARAH WIDDER, Pacific Northwest National

 Laboratory

ALISON WILLIAMS, Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory

*Participated via teleconference
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 TABLE OF CONTENTS

Welcome. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4

Opening Remarks. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5

Testing Overview . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14

Test Procedure (cont'd). . . . . . . . . . . 125

Data Requests. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 259

Agenda-Setting for Next Meeting. . . . . . . 321

Conclusions and Closing Remarks. . . . . . . 332

Adjourn
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (8:07 a.m.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning,

4 everyone. Let's begin. Please take your

5 seats.

6 Good morning, everyone, again, and

7 welcome. This is the second day of the second

8 public meeting on Commercial/Industrial Water

9 Pumps Working Group. 

10 Today is Friday, January 31, 2014,

11 here in the Forrestal Building in Washington,

12 D.C.

13 Thanks for being here early. We

14 are getting an early start. We intend to

15 adjourn today at 3:00, so everybody can make

16 it to the airport or catch trains, whatever

17 they need to do.

18 We made a lot of progress

19 yesterday, a very good discussion, and I

20 continue to be pleased by both the quality and

21 the depth of the investigation during the

22 course of the day, and we'll have another
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1 chance to keep doing that today.

2 All of you received a packet of

3 information yesterday, PowerPoint slides, and

4 an agenda. I'm going to suggest that for

5 today we do as was referenced, as planned, in

6 the agenda yesterday, reflected in yesterday's

7 agenda, an opportunity after I finish this 

8 the agenda review for opening remarks, should

9 there be any. We'll go from there directly

10 into a testing overview. 

11 We will take a break mid morning

12 around about 10:15 or so, and then continuing

13 perhaps a more detailed discussion on test

14 procedure, and then after that the global

15 issue of data requests. We will break for

16 lunch around about 12:30 or so, and then talk

17 about what we need to do agenda setting for

18 the next meeting, what we need to do looking

19 ahead to make sure we're prepared for the

20 upcoming meetings, an opportunity at the end

21 of the day for closing remarks from all

22 present.
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1 Also, I'd like to see if it's

2 possible today to see if we can establish

3 something I don't want to make this sound

4 too awfully difficult or permanent. I'd like

5 to see if it's possible to continue the

6 discussion on scope, and see if we can get a

7 clearer understanding of where we're going

8 with scope. I think we made a lot of progress

9 in that discussion yesterday, and so we will

10 see where that fits in the day's work.

11 So questions and comments on the

12 agenda that is proposed for today?

13 (No response.)

14 One or two members said that they

15 would be late this morning. Steve Rosenstock

16 sent an email saying he is going to be a

17 little late. 

18 Mark Handzel.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Just there's a lot

20 of time this morning budgeted for a discussion

21 of testing. I just wanted to see what was

22 planned for that section, since there's so
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1 much time budgeted for it.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And let's

3 launch into it. Do you want to before we

4 go there, though, as I promised, I want to

5 provide an opportunity to for anybody that

6 wishes to to make an opening statement,

7 opening remarks, here at the outset. Yes,

8 Chuck.

9 MR. POWERS: Yes. I want to say

10 that I was actually pretty pleased with

11 yesterday. I'm not necessarily going to say

12 what the progress was, but about the type of

13 discussions. Some were tough, some were

14 pretty frank.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

16 MR. POWERS: I think the work that

17 Alison and her team is trying to do and the

18 slide deck went a long way to get us on a path

19 to start bringing these to the table. Okay? 

20 So, you know, my challenge was trying to make

21 sure I understood and trying to think of all

22 the companies that aren't here, some that are
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1 much smaller, or whatever, that could be

2 impacted very seriously, you know, I was

3 trying to bring some of their views to point,

4 right?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Good.

6 MR. POWERS: Because some of them

7 are calling me and saying, "Hey, what about

8 this? What about that?" Right? So, you

9 know, sometimes I may come across something

10 too challenging and it's not the point. I was

11 trying to make sure, you know, that I do

12 appreciate the work that I'm using Alison,

13 but the team, and Lucas, what you guys are

14 trying to do, I think it's good because I

15 think we're close, closer.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Good.

17 MR. POWERS: But I do have one

18 thing I'd like to bring up as a question on

19 one of the slides if we get a chance before we

20 go too far.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. I 

22 MR. POWERS: Would you like to do
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1 it now or 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: No.

3 MR. POWERS: Okay.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I expect at some

5 point during the day we will return to the

6 discussion of scope and these issues that are

7 on the slides, the definitions, the stuff that

8 we covered yesterday. Okay?

9 Other opening remarks here?

10 (No response.)

11 So my observation is we had a good

12 combination of both breadth and depth

13 yesterday. I thought we did a decent job with

14 that. And we didn't have a lot of redundancy

15 either, which is also really, really good. So

16 congratulations on that.

17 Lucas, do you want to address

18 Mark's the issue that he raised about the

19 amount of time dedicated to the testing

20 overview section?

21 MR. ADIN: Sure. So, in

22 actuality, there is really kind of two parts
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1 to that. The first part is discussing the

2 metric, how we are actually going to, in the

3 conceptual sense, measure efficiency for the

4 purposes of the standard. And that obviously

5 leads directly into testing -- how physically

6 you are going to actually get to that

7 measurement. So that, really, we're just

8 talking in conceptual terms. We're not

9 talking specifically which test we'd like to

10 use or that kind of thing. It's more, how is

11 the pump going to be you know, how is its

12 efficiency going to be accounted for, how is

13 the motor, the drive, and all of these

14 different parts, how are we really thinking

15 conceptually about doing this, you know, from

16 a practical standpoint?

17 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

18 Xylem. And that's pretty much what I

19 expected. I guess, you know, we got into it

20 yesterday about the difference in testing

21 between a circulator and the rest of the pumps

22 and the Hydraulic Institute's recommendation. 
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1 So I guess, you know, we are going to get into

2 that same thing when we start talking about

3 testing without a defined scope. 

4 So that's all I was really trying

5 just to probe about, saying I would rather

6 spend that time defining the scope so that we

7 could then concentrate specifically on the

8 testing requirement for the pumps we said are

9 in scope. So that's all the point I was

10 trying to make, so, you know 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we'll have

12 time to I think we'll have adequate time to

13 address scope today.

14 Gary Fernstrom.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

16 IOUs. Mark, I think it's kind of a circular

17 thing. HI has made the argument that we

18 already have a full plate and, consequently,

19 we need to do circulators later. And the

20 complexity or ease of the testing I think is

21 a crucial factor in answering that question.

22 So I would like to see some
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1 discussion about the testing opportunities and

2 complexity relative to circulators to inform

3 us about whether or not we should be trying to

4 do those or not.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

6 Xylem. Gary, I fully agree with you, but I'm

7 just going to say I don't know if we are ready

8 to have that discussion. I mean, as I said

9 yesterday, this is a topic that's on our

10 committee's agenda next week at the HI annual

11 meeting, so we've got a lot of work to do

12 ourselves, so 

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Oh, okay. But at

14 this meeting we are prepared to throw out some

15 suggestions and entertain your feedback about

16 how reasonable they are. Thank you.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I appreciate what

18 you said, Mark. We will start with this

19 conceptually, and we will proceed from there

20 and see how far we get.

21 Lucas Adin.

22 MR. ADIN: Just very quickly, I
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1 think really, at least for our purposes, the

2 intent is just essentially to make sure that

3 everyone is on the same page when it comes to

4 testing from a conceptual standpoint. I mean,

5 we understand that a lot of the folks in here

6 have a very good idea what "testing"

7 constitutes and how it would work physically

8 and the kinds of proposals that are in the

9 pipeline and that sort of thing. But not all

10 of us necessarily are as familiar with it,

11 think about it the same way.

12 So I think we just want to make

13 sure that we are all speaking the same

14 language, and when we refer to testing or

15 metrics that we have a basis for discussion

16 that we all understand. So that's really just

17 the general idea. We're not looking to come

18 up with specific proposals regarding testing

19 today.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So I would once

21 again remind you please turn your cell phones

22 on silent mode. And if you'd try really hard
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1 to say your name each time you speak I

2 think we did pretty good yesterday, and I'm

3 going to keep kind of jumping in to make sure

4 that we've got a very clear transcript for

5 this meeting.

6 Okay. So then let's start,

7 then, with the testing overview. Sarah, are

8 you doing slides, or is Alison?

9 MS. WIDDER: Alison is going to do

10 it.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm going to start

12 with the metric.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: With the metric,

14 okay. 

15 And for those of you that are

16 joining us via the web, we welcome you. The

17 Department of Energy is trying hard to make

18 certain these meetings are both totally

19 accessible and totally transparent. And if

20 you wish to add a comment as we are going

21 along today, we will try and fit you in. You

22 can raise your hand to tell the webmaster that
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1 you want to insert a comment. We ought to be

2 able to hear you in the room. In the

3 meantime, please make sure your telephones are

4 on mute.

5 Alison.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. Alison

7 Williams, LBNL. So I'm going to start on

8 Slide 20, which is the metric overview. So we

9 basically wanted to start at a high level, as

10 Lucas said, conceptual overview of what we are

11 looking for in a metric, what the metric is

12 supposed to do, and then think about how we

13 might want to formulate that metric.

14 So, you know, in general, a metric

15 is supposed to be something that is

16 objectively measurable. It allows for

17 comparability across models in the

18 marketplace. It should focus on the energy

19 use or energy efficiency of the equipment

20 being measured. It should limit test burden,

21 and it possibly will inform purchasing

22 decisions as well.
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1 DOE does have some limitations on

2 setting a metric specific to the appliance

3 standards. It must describe energy efficiency

4 or energy use for the covered product, and it

5 must be a single descriptor. 

6 Does anyone have questions on

7 this?

8 (No response.)

9 Okay. So this next slide is kind

10 of confusing. So the top ones across here are

11 the different pump configurations, so bare

12 pump, pump with motor, pump with motor and

13 controls. I have the pictures there just to

14 make sure we know what we're talking about. 

15 And then down the left column is what the

16 metric might cover.

17 So since we are thinking about

18 defining a pump, the covered product pump, as

19 including motor and controls, we are looking

20 at different levels. So if the metric only

21 covered the pump, it describes a bare pump

22 well, but it does not capture motor efficiency
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1 and it does not capture losses or benefits of

2 control. So it doesn't really capture the

3 whole covered potentially covered product

4 for these other pump configurations.

5 The same thing if the metric only

6 covers a pump with a motor. You can use it

7 for a bare pump if you add a standard motor to

8 the metric. It obviously covers the pump plus

9 motor, but, again, it doesn't cover the pump

10 plus motor control configuration in its

11 entirety.

12 So the final one is a metric that

13 would include all of those components. And if

14 you have a bare pump, again, you can use a

15 standard motor, and then potentially you can

16 include some sort of standardized controls in

17 there if necessary. And so a metric that

18 covers all of these things potentially works

19 for all configurations of the pump.

20 And so just to sort of summarize

21 this, you know, if the yep?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

2 Cappellino. Could you go back to the previous

3 slide there? So just to clarify, yesterday we

4 defined "pump" as more the broad of

5 everything, right? So shouldn't the places

6 where you say "pump" there, shouldn't those

7 all say "bare pump"?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. You are

9 correct.

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: So it's bare pump

11 plus motor, bare pump plus motor, is it and

12 is it the same thing for the left hand column

13 there? Because I'm still trying to wrap my

14 head around 

15 MS. WILLIAMS: No, you're right.

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: the whole

17 concept of pump versus bare pump and trying to

18 get some 

19 MS. WILLIAMS: You're correct.

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: All right. Thank

21 you.

22 MR. POWERS: And a question I have
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1 is based on 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

3 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers,

4 Flowserve. Based on how a customer buys the

5 equipment, we may have nothing to do with the

6 motor and the drive. Many cases.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

8 MR. POWERS: So when you write the

9 standard, it's going to be up to whoever buys 

10 the pump guy may only ship a bare pump. 

11 Then, somebody else has to be concerned about

12 the overall standards.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: All right. So,

15 again, just to summarize, if we define pumps,

16 the covered product, as including bare pump,

17 motor, and controls, the metric of its

18 efficiency or energy use should in some way

19 comprise the efficiency or energy use of all

20 the components the bare pump, the motor,

21 and the controls.

22 So this is just on a conceptual
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1 level, we're thinking that maybe, you know,

2 that would be a good thing to go for.

3 Okay. So this is just an example

4 of if we did do some sort of metric. I'm

5 going to go through each of the pump

6 configurations. So this is for bare pumps. 

7 You could potentially test the pump itself

8 using whatever test method we decide upon to

9 collect the pump performance data, similar to,

10 you know, how it's collected now, sweeping the

11 pump curve.

12 And then we could assume some sort

13 of standardized motor for that, such as the

14 federal minimum efficiency motor. So you

15 would just be testing your bare pump, and

16 then, you know, multiplying it or whatever by

17 the federal minimum efficiency for the

18 appropriately sized motor for that pump, and

19 that would give you a rating for that metric.

20 MR. HUBER: Some of our group want

21 to make sure that everyone in here understands

22 that in some markets we do not test every
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1 pump. In some markets we do.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: So, to clarify, you

3 don't have to test every pump. You would have

4 to test the model.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Al Huber. 

6 Keep going, Al.

7 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber at

8 Patterson. Yes. We test we would test the

9 model originally thoroughly throughout, all

10 its trims and curves, so that we could develop

11 impeller diameters, and so forth, and tables. 

12 So, but we don't unless the customer

13 requests it and they do occasionally but

14 unless they request it, we do not test every

15 model we every pump that we ship.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Agreed. And

17 so I think this would you know, you could

18 take your well, as long as you had the pump

19 tested according to the DOE test procedure,

20 right, the model, then you can take the data

21 for that model and combine it with motor data. 

22 So this in no way implies that you would have
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1 to test every unit that goes out your door. 

2 You just take the data for the whole model

3 that you've compiled.

4 MR. POWERS: And I think what Al

5 is saying 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, get that

7 microphone closer to you, please.

8 MR. POWERS: Yes. What Al is

9 saying is fine. I agree with what he's

10 saying, but we have to be clear on how you are

11 going to approach this, because if a customer

12 writes a spec and just says "motor" and says

13 nothing else, or he says "DOE Standard X," you

14 know, we are going to be subject to whatever

15 that spec says. So 

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So let me

17 move let me just move on then. I think

18 that this was just supposed to be for bare

19 pump. So the next slide is for pump plus

20 motor. So if you were actually supplying both

21 the pump and the motor to the customer, some

22 potential options are that you could, again,
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1 just take your pump data and combine it with

2 the manufacturer motor efficiency data that

3 you're pairing with that pump, whatever is

4 published for that, and create your metric, or

5 you could potentially do a wire to water test

6 of the motor/pump combination, if you wanted

7 to, realizing that if you had to test all of

8 your models and motor pairs that would be a

9 lot of test burden.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

11 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

12 Xylem. That's exactly the point I wanted to

13 make, Alison, and just and that was I

14 was the one whispering to Al saying, "Do you

15 think we should clarify what we do?" Because,

16 you know, there certainly are requirements

17 when we build a pump to qualify it, to have

18 published data, but then what we do afterwards

19 varies all over the place.

20 And, you know, it's rare for any

21 of us I think except fire, which we aren't

22 talking about, that we have to do certified
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1 performance testing.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. And so 

3 MR. HANDZEL: And it varies in all

4 of our business. Some of us do it more than

5 others, but it's still it depends if the

6 customer wants it done.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So that's why

8 we put Option A up there as sort of a

9 calculation option, so you would, again, just

10 have that one set of model data, and you could

11 combine it with various different manufacturer

12 efficiencies, depending on what motor you're

13 pairing with. So the burden would be

14 potentially a calculation burden.

15 MR. POWERS: Clarification. This

16 is Chuck Powers. You know, for a given pump,

17 you could have hundreds of different motor

18 values. A lot of times they you know, just

19 so we're clear, in order to test the unit

20 accurately, you have to get what's called a

21 calibrated motor efficiency curve load for a

22 factor , which is probably part of the
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1 standard, right?

2 If you're just buying a motor to

3 ship and the test does not require there's a

4 witness, they will give you basic nominal

5 numbers. You don't know what that actual

6 motor you're shipping out the door actually

7 has.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah Widder.

9 MS. WIDDER: Right. So I just

10 want to clear up some of the concern that I

11 hear on the manufacturer side, which is

12 definitely warranted, because there are a lot

13 of pump and motor combinations, and that's the

14 case in actually a lot of equipment categories

15 that DOE covers. HVAC equipment is another

16 example where there is an air handler and a

17 condensing unit that get matched in all sorts

18 of different ways.

19 And so that's what so the first

20 thing that Alison said that I want to

21 reiterate and just be clear about is that you

22 only have to certify the model or the line one
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1 time. One time. And then you can sell that

2 same basic model 

3 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck Powers. 

4 When you say the line, I'm talking pump only. 

5 We're not talking that motor and all the

6 14,000 different motor options, stuff like

7 that. A pump with whatever motor you want us

8 to use.

9 MS. WIDDER: If you're well,

10 this is getting in the weeds, but if you are

11 going to sell only the pump and not package it

12 with any motors, then, yes, what you said is

13 just true. Based on what the slides are

14 presenting now we can have that

15 conversation, so nothing has been decided. 

16 But if you were to sell it with 100 different

17 kinds of motors, then you would have the pump

18 performance. You only tested it one time. 

19 You have pump efficiency based on HI 40.6, and

20 then you have motor nameplate data.

21 And, yes, the manufacturers don't

22 know how efficient that is, but it or how
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1 accurate that is, but it's motor nameplate

2 data and you would just combine them,

3 calculate them, and come up with the rating. 

4 And that's Option A via a calculation for the

5 extended product. You could also test it if

6 you had wanted to verify.

7 Yes?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

9 MR. HUBER: You have a choice

10 here, and I think we need to be careful with

11 this, because if you just let people do

12 calculations then you could get into all kind

13 of problems.

14 So one of the things that I think

15 we need to look at, DOE already regulates

16 motors, correct? And efficiency of motors. 

17 So they have to meet those efficiencies,

18 correct?

19 So if we're using those motors,

20 and Lot 11 uses those types of motors I think 

21 I don't know of any that aren't regulated in

22 Lot 11, is that correct? I wouldn't they
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1 are all 

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Submersible.

3 MR. HUBER: I can't think of a

4 problem with that. One of the things that you

5 will find is that motor efficiency varies, as

6 you know, with load. And we're going to be

7 testing this at BEP at full diameter, correct? 

8 Okay?

9 MS. WIDDER: That has not been

10 determined yet.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: That's one thing

12 that is being 

13 MR. HUBER: You're going to have

14 to. 

15 MS. WILLIAMS: At a minimum.

16 MS. WIDDER: At a minimum, you

17 need to determine a full load efficiency, yes.

18 MR. HUBER: Well, full load of

19 what? See, that's the problem here. Let's be

20 careful. I may have I may require a

21 certain efficiency. My pump may require a

22 certain horsepower at BEP, and I maybe can use
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1 a 200 horsepower on the job and get it out the

2 door.

3 The next competitor may have to

4 use, because his curve is a little different

5 shape or because it runs out further, or

6 something else, he may end up with a 250

7 horsepower motor.

8 Now, when you combine that motor,

9 now you're running one at BEP at three quarter

10 or half or something else, and then you're

11 running and efficiencies are different.

12 MS. WIDDER: That's true, and

13 that's something that we have considered and

14 will have to consider as a committee, that the

15 full load efficiency of the motor doesn't

16 necessarily that rating point doesn't

17 correspond to the BEP of the pump that it's

18 paired with exactly.

19 And so the question before the

20 committee is, how comfortable do we feel

21 applying the efficiency at the full load

22 rating of the motor to a different rating
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1 point, acknowledging that it might be a few

2 percent off.

3 Typical motor curves don't change

4 efficiency with load over a small range

5 significantly.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

7 MR. POWERS: I have a question.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin first.

9 MR. ADIN: I just want to clarify

10 something generally. I understand exactly the

11 point you're getting at, Al, and it 

12 ideally, we want I mean, really, this is

13 getting to a question of the testing method,

14 right? Because that's where all of this will

15 be spelled out, exactly how you obtain these

16 values and how you apply them to a given pump.

17 And ideally we want the metric,

18 the number that is obtained from this, to be

19 as representative as possible of what the pump

20 is actually going to do. You want to be able

21 to represent those things and have the numbers

22 have as much meaning as possible.
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1 However, that also, clearly, has

2 to be balanced with the amount of burden that

3 is required to get them. And so I think what

4 we're trying to work towards in suggesting

5 something more along the lines of a calculated

6 value is recognizing the significant amount of

7 burden that would be imposed by trying to get

8 as close as possible to the true value,

9 because that would require potentially a lot

10 more physical testing and a lot obtaining

11 a lot more data that is not necessarily

12 readily obtainable.

13 That is our impression, anyway. I

14 mean, correct us if we're wrong about that. 

15 But I think we are trying to balance all of

16 these factors, and that's the kind of general

17 concept that seemed potentially most

18 appropriate in this case.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

20 MR. POWERS: And I have a concern

21 of what you're thinking, okay? Just so I can

22 help. If you had a constant speed unit,
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1 right? Now, let's just take I have to get

2 to the board to draw it, but to try to

3 explain it. You have a BEP on the pump, and

4 it's at a given point. That's max wheel. 

5 We're altering a max wheel, BEP.

6 The hydraulics that come out from

7 the customer says, "It's not at BEP; he's a

8 little bit to the left." Right? Now, he's a

9 little bit to the left, he's down. All right? 

10 Okay. So now you're not at BEP, you're not

11 going to be at that maximum efficiency, you're

12 going to be something else. 

13 So we can calculate that on the

14 pump, no problem. If we could do a test, if

15 it was feasible and all the work done, maybe

16 we could prove that one value at that lower

17 point.

18 Now, bear with me. So now you go

19 to buy a motor. To your point, there is a

20 range on the motor at constant speed that it

21 doesn't fluctuate too much, but different

22 motor manufacturers, if it's totally enclosed
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1 motor, air cooled, drip proof, all these

2 different factors, that will vary, and the

3 load, right?

4 Now, when you start to get off its

5 comfort zone, it drops dramatically. Okay? 

6 Now, what I was getting to, if it's a 200

7 horse, and it just so happens the customer

8 picked BEP condition at 200 horse, everybody

9 is going to be happy. It's going to come out

10 in your mathematical little thing and you're

11 all going to run around, everybody is going to

12 shake hands, and everybody is going to be

13 happy. Okay? But if it's off that condition,

14 the numbers are going to be totally different.

15 So the pump that we are qualifying

16 will meet the standard you are trying to

17 impose. No problem. We do the testing of

18 those. But what is going to happen in the

19 field may be different. Now you go to VFD. 

20 So I'm talking constant speed pump and motor. 

21 Now you throw a control, VFD. The

22 VFD drop in speed is not purely linear, right? 
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1 It doesn't follow the curve straight down the

2 curve as you might think. It starts to skew

3 it because efficiencies go one way. It

4 depends on the type of specific speed and lot

5 of that some are bullseyes. They actually

6 get better when you slow them down or trim

7 them or do things, right? So now you add

8 another variable.

9 Now, on the motor side, things

10 change because a VFD adequate motor,

11 especially in the bigger horsepowers, you have

12 to do certain things for heat buildup when you

13 slow them down, and other factors. The motors

14 are not standard motors, okay, when they're

15 coupled with VFDs.

16 The last thing is I do not believe

17 circulator motors or submersible motors are in

18 the DOE standard yet, motor standard.

19 MS. WIDDER: That's correct.

20 MR. POWERS: I don't believe. I

21 could be wrong. So you may have conventional,

22 horizontal, whatever, but I'm not sure if some
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1 of the verticals and submersible motors are 

2 you know if they end up being that one

3 grouping, and the circulators I mean, these

4 guys would have to speak up on 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So there are a

6 couple of different themes here I would just

7 wish to note. We're getting it about this

8 issue of complexity and the potential

9 difficulty of matching, pairing, and the

10 testing that goes with it.

11 But DOE is also saying that, gee,

12 they're thinking about the testing burden here

13 and trying to figure out some way that a

14 calculation can reduce that burden. So we

15 need to be thinking productively about how

16 something like that might happen I think.

17 Charlie.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

19 Cappellino, ITT. We scratched at this a

20 little bit yesterday, the concept of

21 integrated design versus a modular design. 

22 And I think we need to think about that a
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1 little bit as we move forward with this. And

2 then on top of that there is the extended

3 product concept where you take modularity and

4 use it to build an extended product.

5 And those are really three

6 different kinds of scenarios that I think we

7 need to consider and think through as we go

8 through the testing standard. So in the first

9 case of an integrated design, like a

10 circulator, you know, frankly, Gary's

11 suggestion of wire to water is a more

12 practical solution, because that is really

13 more the only practical way to measure the

14 efficiency of the unit, because it is an

15 integrated design.

16 In the modular design, in our

17 business and Chuck's business and some of

18 these other guys' businesses, the modular

19 approach where traditionally we optimize the

20 performance of the bare pump, we spent a lot

21 of time trying to increase the efficiency of

22 that design and it's very competitive in the
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1 marketplace.

2 And to Al's point, if you pair up

3 a motor and I said this yesterday. It

4 probably wasn't real clear, but when the

5 customer has a choice, when they can choose

6 the pump somewhat independently from the

7 motor, and you can put a premium efficiency

8 motor or whatever kind of efficiency motor on

9 there, those decisions can be independent.

10 I think the testing should be

11 somewhat independent as well, because I think

12 if you start wrapping the motor efficiency in

13 with the pump efficiency and try and calculate

14 it, frankly, I think it is going to cause more

15 confusion in terms of the decision making and

16 the actual efficiencies of the system, and

17 it's going to confuse the objective, which is,

18 you know, objectively measurable. I think

19 you're going to end up with a problem.

20 Then, the third piece is our

21 extended product concept. I mean, HI has done

22 a lot of time spent a lot of time talking
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1 about extended product, and we think there is

2 a lot of energy savings there. I think that's

3 a separate discussion that we want to have and

4 talk about some of the things that we've come

5 up with as far as trying to measure that and

6 advance that concept.

7 So I'm just trying to frame that

8 up because it's there are a lot of

9 different concepts, and trying to wrap them

10 all together is going to be challenging.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw both Louis

12 and Gary.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I clarify

14 something real quick?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, clarify. 

16 Alison, please.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So on the extended

18 product thing being a different discussion, so

19 I just want to repeat again that DOE has to

20 use a single metric. We can ask further

21 questions of GC if necessary, but so we're

22 just trying to bring, sort of, a way that we
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1 could develop a single metric that would work

2 for extended products and would work for bare

3 pumps and could show the benefits of extended

4 products. And we're certainly open to any

5 other ideas on that.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So just follow on,

7 Meg.

8 MS. WALTNER: Is it your

9 interpretation that you have to use a single

10 metric for different product classes, or could

11 you use a different metric for different

12 product classes if each class only had one

13 metric?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy Kohl.

15 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl, DOE

16 GC. I know this came up last time, and Steve

17 Rosenstock had given some purported examples

18 of where we've used different metrics for

19 different product classes, and they were

20 different products that he just referred to.

21 So we have not, in the past, used

22 different metrics for different product
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1 classes in the same product type. And I

2 guess, I mean, we lawyers have to think about

3 things. So that's something that we can still

4 think about, but we have not historically done

5 that, no.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: These two, one of 

7 Louis or Gary. Gary, go ahead.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Charlie 

9 well, first of all, Gary, California IOUs. I

10 totally agree with you, if the product is sold

11 as an integral product like a circulator, the

12 smaller ones or maybe the midsize ones, you

13 know, one, two, three horsepower, it makes

14 sense to do wire to water and consider it all

15 as an integrated product. 

16 But if there is going to be

17 variability in the motor associated with the

18 pump, I don't see how you can do anything but

19 describe the pump performance independent of

20 the motor. You can't extend it through a

21 motor for which you may not exactly know the

22 characteristics.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al? Al Huber.

2 MR. HUBER: Wire to water testing

3 is done every day here in the United States in

4 all of our labs. In fact, I've got a 2,500

5 horsepower unit with a VFD on my test stand

6 today. It is if we are practical and

7 smart, I would say the variability between the

8 manufacturers of these DOE rated motors,

9 certified motors, is probably fairly small.

10 If we can figure out what that is,

11 then we could just give ourselves an allowance

12 -- I mean, you're going to have to do

13 something. If you give yourself an allowance

14 for that variability, then you don't have to

15 test everybody's motor with your pump; just

16 test one with your pump and you'll have a

17 pretty good idea. I'm not talking about

18 circulators, Gary.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes.

20 MR. HUBER: Then you'll have a

21 pretty good idea and you can come up with a

22 metric for that.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. 

3 I agree. That sounds like a reasonable

4 approach.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Some margin of

6 error.

7 MR. HUBER: I mean, if you do,

8 then we don't have to go and because we

9 sell maybe, for instance, four or five

10 different motor manufacturers for on our

11 HVAC line, for instance. So if we test one

12 and all of them are standard, let's say,

13 premium efficient motors, then they will all

14 be pretty close to the same when we test. 

15 They should be. 

16 And we just know that and we are

17 given a margin for that, so no matter whose we

18 test, as long as it's that kind of motor, then

19 we won't have an issue.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah, do you want

21 to 

22 MR. HUBER: As long as you are
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1 willing to give us that, I don't think it

2 won't be an undue burden at that point.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to add

4 anything, Sarah, or Lucas?

5 MR. ADIN: I think that's, in the

6 most basic Lucas Adin, DOE. I think that's

7 in the basic sense, what we're talking about

8 is we're talking about using a standardized

9 value to represent that motor in the

10 efficiency metric. So you could make

11 comparisons across different pumps.

12 MR. HUBER: But I want to be clear

13 here, Lucas. I'm talking about actually doing

14 a wire to water test with that motor, with a

15 motor.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

17 MR. HUBER: It doesn't matter

18 whose. If they're all going to be the same

19 and you give us an allowance for the rest of

20 them, then it doesn't matter whose we use. If

21 you don't do that, then there is you have

22 not necessarily picked the best product out
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1 there in the field because everybody's curve

2 shapes are somewhat different. And whatever

3 motor you're using, and whether the motor is

4 going to run at BEP, could be different. And

5 I think we all know that.

6 MR. POWERS: I'd like to add

7 something here, just so I'm clear.

8 And, Gary, I'd appreciate it if

9 you'd keep the circulators over here, because

10 I think they're integral to the pump and 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is Chuck

12 speaking. Keep going, Chuck.

13 MR. POWERS: So let me just try to

14 just back up at a higher level. The goal here

15 is to improve efficiency, whatever, whether

16 it's motors, fans, pumps, and the like. So I

17 get it, right? And it makes sense.

18 The next step would be to have

19 some kind of a logical process that we all

20 could use, right? We are getting through the

21 block and tackle of the products and the

22 details, and that's all fun, but, you know,
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1 we're trying to get a process of it, right?

2 So the thinking would be and

3 this is just from my experience of 38 years 

4 I can take an individual product, any one of

5 those, we had never made it the same. 

6 Thousands upon thousands upon thousands. You

7 say, "Well, Chuck, how can that be?" 

8 Well, putting aside they are the

9 same casing and cast iron, or Duplex, or

10 whatever that's one variable, but that

11 doesn't necessarily affect hydraulics in some

12 cases, although the materials can. But the

13 trims, they're all different. I don't think 

14 now bear with me. 

15 So my point would be and I

16 think I'm trying to get to where Al is going 

17 if we come up we'll start with the pump. 

18 If we come up with the pump type that we have

19 agreed on, whatever that is, okay, at BEP, at

20 max wheel, we have to achieve X. Right? So

21 bear with me.

22 You get a stamp or something that
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1 says that product is certified at max wheel at

2 BEP. So now when the spec comes in, no matter

3 where that customer has it on, you know,

4 whether his specs or anybody else, it could be

5 anywhere they may want to run the pump at

6 10 percent of BEP. All I'm certifying is that

7 pump at BEP, at max wheel, meets your

8 standard. Where that is selected of the

9 thousands and thousands that will ship every

10 year, who cares, right?

11 Now, the reason that's important

12 is I want to get away from the specific every

13 pump that goes out the door, quality

14 efficiency, where it's going to be. I'm not

15 going to care. Oh, we're going to have a

16 problem here at this meeting.

17 What I'm saying is I'm willing to

18 commit to a product. We end up on the list at

19 a certain standard, a max wheel, a BEP, right? 

20 And then wherever it shows after that, it is

21 going to be there may be a few cases of

22 better efficiency because of the way curves
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1 are shaped, and, you know, off max wheel could

2 get better, but it doesn't matter. It's what

3 that standard is.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

5 MR. POWERS: Now, so then on the

6 motor, if you have a motor you've certified,

7 or, you know, you've qualified and I don't

8 know the details to it of a given

9 horsepower at a certain speed at its you

10 know, like she was saying, the peak, whatever,

11 but if it's off that and you calculate the two

12 and you even get it calibrated, it's not going

13 to meet your standard because it's not at BEP

14 and it's not at those conditions.

15 But both companies come in and

16 say, "This product has been certified by DOE. 

17 Here is the stamp. And this product, the

18 motor has been certified by DOE and here is

19 the stamp." Where the customer picks it and

20 what he wants to do with it, you know, that's

21 going to be different.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.
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1 MR. ADIN: All right. So maybe we 

2 we might be kind of talking past each other

3 on a couple of these things. But going back

4 to the pump part of it, you know,

5 certification at full impeller BEP, a

6 standardized rating condition, I mean, that's

7 exactly what we're talking about. 

8 I don't see how you could do it

9 any other way. You can't make any assumptions

10 about how the customer is actually going to

11 use it, any of that. You're choosing

12 standardized rating conditions. That's part

13 of the test procedure. It's the only way that

14 pumps can be compared to one another. Fine. 

15 I don't think there is any question about that

16 at all.

17 MR. POWERS: And, Lucas, the

18 reason I say that 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

20 MR. POWERS: if this was the

21 bar, and we all in this room agree on certain

22 products, and we're going to raise the bar,
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1 great. So anywhere you choose off of that bar

2 it's going to be better, because the old bar

3 was here, so all the efficiencies are going to

4 be lower. The new bar is here. Generally

5 speaking, you could say they're all going to

6 be better also, right?

7 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So I think I

8 am going to try to address say something

9 that addresses your concern 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah.

11 MS. WIDDER: I'm hoping. This

12 is Sarah. So Lucas just clarified that we are

13 currently, in this construct that we have

14 presented, just thinking about one rating

15 condition for one model of pump, BEP, full

16 impeller diameter, you certify the pump

17 performance, you measure the pump performance.

18 What we're discussing here is what

19 you do with that. If you just certify pump

20 performance and we're done, or we consider the

21 efficiency benefits or, you know, losses

22 associated with other things that might be
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1 paired with the motor, and the benefit of

2 doing that, I'm going to go back to something

3 you said. You said that our purpose is to

4 increase efficiency, and I'm going to change

5 it. I think our purpose here is to save

6 energy, which is a little bit different than

7 improving efficiency, which is why DOE wants

8 to consider those you know, that extended

9 product, at least have a discussion about how

10 that construct might work.

11 The other thing I wanted to say,

12 and just hopefully this is clear, yes, you'll

13 certify a pump at BEP, full impeller. A

14 customer is going to buy it at any number of

15 trims, run it any number of ways, lots of

16 differences. I'm with you there. I'm with

17 you there. 

18 Okay. You keep saying let me

19 finish. Let me finish. Okay? We don't care

20 as much as you don't care. So, yes, that's

21 the case. But customers buy all sorts of

22 things all the time. You would take the pump 
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1 in this construct, you would take the pump

2 performance at full impeller BEP, pair it with

3 a motor that you would select if a customer

4 were to buy it at BEP full impeller. That

5 motor that is paired at that rating point, the

6 efficiency of that motor would be included in

7 the metric. And if a customer buys the pump

8 at a trim diameter, you would pair it with a

9 different motor, but that's okay. We're not

10 concerned with that here.

11 It doesn't matter that you have a

12 different motor running at a different place

13 for every customer out there, you want the

14 motor for the pump at BEP. That's the rating

15 point.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

17 MR. ADIN: I just want to make

18 sure I understand.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Further

20 clarification, Lucas Adin.

21 MR. ADIN: One of the concerns

22 that was expressed previously about different
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1 motor pairings, and whatnot, if we make

2 assumptions about the motor that's paired for

3 the purposes of certifying the pump, so you

4 have the standard, you have this rating that

5 you would use based on this concept that we're

6 talking about that uses an assumed value for

7 the motor, and the concern is that if that

8 pump were paired with a different motor, or

9 even if it was just off whatever that

10 assumption is and you did a wire to water

11 test, then that number is different and you

12 couldn't is that what we're talking about,

13 the difference between the result of a wire to

14 water test and the assumed value, or just a

15 different motor being different than that

16 assumed value for that pump?

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to stay on

18 this 

19 MR. ADIN: I want to understand

20 what we're talking about here.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, can you address

22 this?
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1 MR. HUBER: If you use a

2 calculation, you're going to have to pick on

3 the motor which calculation what efficiency

4 you are going to use. So you would 

5 MR. ADIN: Can't do wire to water

6 without the motor efficiency.

7 MR. HUBER: Without a motor

8 efficiency. But I can tell you, in the

9 marketplace, when someone requires wire to

10 water, at least in the business that we're in 

11 municipal and otherwise you end up doing

12 a wire to water test.

13 MR. ADIN: Of the actual 

14 MR. HUBER: Of the actual piece of

15 equipment, the motor, the pump.

16 MR. ADIN: With the impeller trim 

17

18 MR. HUBER: With the impeller

19 trim, but that's all right. We have already

20 decided we are going to I don't want to get

21 confused here. We have already decided that

22 we were using full diameter. That's okay. 
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1 All I'm saying is we could do the same thing

2 with motors, and you test one motor of a DOE

3 type. I'm using the word "type." I don't

4 know how you guys have got it categorized.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Frame.

6 MR. HANDZEL: But if I go buy a 20

7 horsepower this frame, this NEMA frame, this

8 whatever, premium efficient or EPAct, or

9 whatever it happens to be. And I test it, and

10 I should be able to use that for every other

11 motor manufacturer that I want to that the

12 customer wants me to provide him for that

13 particular type of motor, and you need to give

14 me whatever span of variance that is.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So, Charlie 

16 MR. HUBER: So that way I only

17 have to test the model one time with one

18 motor, and then I'm good with everybody's

19 motor that makes that motor.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're

21 working our way toward a little bit of

22 clarity. Charlie, you have been patient. 
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1 Thank you.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

3 Cappellino. My understanding of what the

4 proposal was is that you could test the bare

5 pump in any means that you selected, meaning

6 mechanical power input, basically do a bare

7 pump test, which is unscreened, and then you

8 would assume a motor efficiency and calculate

9 a combined efficiency.

10 My question is would everybody

11 assume the same motor efficiency to do that

12 calculation? So, for example 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, wait. Hold

14 up. So is that construct, is that what we're

15 talking about?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, what

17 we have been thinking is that there would be 

18 for the bare pump, not when you're actually

19 pairing a pump and motor, but if you have a

20 bare pump that you're selling, there would be

21 rules, right? Use the NEMA B open frame of

22 like this sizing for your pump, and you pull
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1 that out of, you know, the DOE tables.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: You would pull a

3 number. You would pull a number that says 

4 MS. WILLIAMS: You would pull a

5 number.

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: 96 percent.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: And you would use

9 that to factor into the calculation of 

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. And so 

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: bare pump

12 testing.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: And you could

15 test the bare pump in a way that complies with

16 the test standards.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Truly a

19 calculation.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. And the

21 standard would have to take into account all

22 those different motors. So you wouldn't be
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1 penalized necessarily by in this case by

2 different motors being used, because the

3 standard would have to account for the

4 different motors.

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie

6 again. So if I'm Company A, and I test my

7 bare pump, and I go to the DOE table and say,

8 "This pump can be sold with a premium

9 efficiency motor," which is, let's say, 96

10 percent, I can do that calculation, do that

11 once, qualify my product, and I'm done. Let's

12 say it passes, right?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: This is for a bare

14 pump.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: For a bare pump,

16 right.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Company B comes

19 along and says, "I'm going to do the same

20 thing." I mean, they are likely to pick the

21 same efficiency for the motor.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: So we would require
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1 that the same efficiency be picked. There

2 would be rules for which motor you would

3 pairing it with.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: So on the one

5 hand if there is that level of consistency,

6 that the motor efficiency is basically the

7 same efficiency from Company A to B to C, it's

8 a level playing field. But it also adds a 

9 to some extent an unnecessary complexity for

10 that for a bare pump situation, but it does

11 open up the door of comparing I guess that

12 product configuration to a pump motor drive

13 configuration or something like that. Does

14 that 

15 MS. WILLIAMS: That is exactly

16 where we're heading, yes.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

18 MR. ADIN: Right. Lucas Adin. 

19 And so, you know, obviously in that case the

20 only variability you're looking at is based on

21 the efficiency differences in the bare pump

22 itself.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: The bare pump

2 itself, because you've 

3 MR. ADIN: So 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: You've specified

5 every other thing aside from the bare pump.

6 MR. ADIN: You've standardized

7 everything else. So if we did, you know,

8 efficiency standard analysis on this basis,

9 you would only be looking analyzing

10 improvements in the bare pump, the hydraulic.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: So you're looking

12 forward here to kind of set up for extended

13 product approach is what 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what she 

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean,

16 that's the goal, to get you know, if we're 

17

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah has another

19 comment. Sarah.

20 MS. WIDDER: I do. Just to build

21 on that I think that was really helpful,

22 Charlie so will you go to the pump plus
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1 motor one? So let's carry that line of

2 thinking where we took the rated performance

3 of the bare pump and times'd it by the

4 calculated values that you got from the DOE

5 test procedure, and every single person has

6 the exact same values.

7 They are either right in the CFR

8 or they tell you where to find them in the

9 CFR. Every manufacturer, DOE included, will

10 use the same values.

11 In this case, now you take the

12 same pump performance that you measured and

13 it's variable among pumps, because every pump

14 is different performance. Now you're pairing

15 it with a motor and you're selling the two

16 together, integrated, but that motor has a

17 standardized, certified full load efficiency.

18 If Manufacturer A of pumps and

19 Manufacturer B of pumps purchased the same

20 motor, they are using the same value. That's

21 Option A here. You would just look up the

22 motor nameplate, and then times it by the pump
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1 efficiency that you measured. And everybody

2 gets the same value.

3 When DOE pulls a product, they do

4 the same thing, they get the same number,

5 theoretically.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: And they do that

7 calculation. They do the manufacturers

8 would do that calculation. They wouldn't be

9 testing every single pump motor combination.

10 MS. WIDDER: Yes. And I'm almost

11 done, and then Mark. 

12 Okay. And then, to Al's point

13 about I only want to test pump and motor one

14 time, and then I'm done with all of the motors

15 that I could pair with this pump, that in

16 Option A, if you always paired with the same

17 efficiency motor, then, yes, if you bought

18 four different there's motors from four

19 different manufacturers, but all of them are

20 95 percent efficiency nameplate, there is

21 absolutely no difference for Option A.

22 For Option B, if you wanted to do
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1 wire to water test, and the nameplate on all

2 of them was 95 percent, you also could only

3 test one time, and there is tolerance built

4 into the testing. That's just I mean,

5 there is tolerance built into pump testing,

6 too.

7 And so I think that what you're

8 saying is consistent with the way DOE the

9 way we are at least thinking about this setup. 

10 And the one other thing I will say, and then 

11 one thing and then I'm done, is if you

12 wanted to have a suite of motors that you

13 could pair with a pump, and they were all 95

14 percent or better, but you didn't want to take

15 advantage of the savings you could get from

16 pairing with a better motor, like let's say I

17 now I have a 95 percent and I have a 98

18 percent motor.

19 Now my rating just got better, but

20 I didn't do anything to the pump. So that's

21 a benefit. But if I don't want to take

22 advantage for that, all of those equipment can
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1 be certified under the lowest efficiency.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

4 Xylem. I just want to clarify for everybody

5 that the Hydraulic Institute's recommendation

6 is that for you know, we have to establish

7 a baseline for pumps that we are going to have

8 to redesign for. Okay? And we have

9 recommended adopting, you know, the MEI

10 approach that was used in the EU.

11 It doesn't factor into any motor

12 efficiency. It is all based on pump

13 efficiency only. So realistically, you know,

14 your bare pump testing, there should be no

15 reference to the motor in it. It's just about

16 testing the pump, and what's the efficiency of

17 the pump at BEP, at full run or impeller,

18 okay? So I think we're jumping ahead again.

19 Also, I would just clarify that

20 our recommendation for extended product where

21 we're adding the motor and adding the drive is

22 to use EEI, which is along the lines of your
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1 wire to water efficiency that we have been

2 throwing around the table.

3 So I just want to pull this back a

4 little bit, because I just think we're jumping

5 ahead on the test and we're not looking at how

6 are we going to qualify pumps, how are we

7 going to qualify extended product.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Al.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I respond?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Please do. Alison.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: So, again, we know

12 that's your position, and DOE doesn't isn't

13 necessarily able to do that. And so we are

14 just trying to explore other ways that we can

15 do both pumps and extended products.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin, and

17 then 

18 MR. ADIN: Let me just clarify. 

19 When she says we can't do that, she is talking

20 about having one particular metric for what

21 we're talking about as an extended product and

22 a different one for a bare pump.
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1 And in some respects, I don't

2 think we'd want to. I mean, if you have the

3 same metric, then you can recognize the

4 benefits of using a variable speed system in

5 the same kind of that's our general

6 understanding. I mean, I 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: And, Louis, thank

8 you for being patient. Thank you.

9 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr

10 with NEEA. You know, what the pump guys are

11 experiencing, I experience, all the time, and

12 other DOE things where we would like air

13 handling equipment you have SEER ratings and

14 then you have EER ratings. And we always ask

15 for multiple metrics.

16 But due to how they are

17 constrained or legal obligations, they can

18 always only provide one metric. So this is

19 their workaround for only providing one

20 metric. So it's not not that your point is

21 not logical it is, much the same way ours

22 is in multiple metric discussions on other
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1 equipment but this is their workaround for

2 trying to get that.

3 So if somehow this can be framed

4 in that way, that would be beneficial. But I

5 understand your misgivings.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.

7 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

8 Institute. So if we go to what we've called

9 the EEI, which has all of them aboard, it's

10 possible I don't do anything to my pump. I

11 just buy a better efficiency motor. And I've

12 done nothing to improve pump efficiency; all

13 I've done is changed my motor. So 

14 MS. WIDDER: But you're still

15 saving energy.

16 MR. CASE: I agree. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Sarah. 

18 And Greg agrees. Now, Chuck, go ahead.

19 MR. CASE: Was Sarah recognized,

20 or is she allowed to interrupt also?

21 (Laughter.)

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah can have the
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1 floor anytime she wants.

2 (Laughter.)

3 Al. Al cannot. No. Go ahead. 

4 Go ahead. Just kidding.

5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

6 You know, I have some great concerns about

7 using motors to verify pump efficiency that

8 aren't certified. We all know what can happen

9 here.

10 If the motor you're using for some

11 reason is less efficient than the percentage

12 that you're you're saying we've got to use,

13 then my pump is going to show that it's less

14 efficient. That's a fact. 

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So 

16 MR. HUBER: Yes, it will.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, please.

19 MR. HUBER: It will can I

20 finish, please?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. Yes,

22 go ahead.
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1 MR. HUBER: It absolutely will. 

2 If the efficiency I'm using in my calculation,

3 and the motor is less efficient, then my pump

4 itself, my bare pump, you've got two different 

5 my bare pump is going to show a lower

6 efficiency.

7 Now, what she has described in A

8 is not is not a bare pump metric, I can

9 tell you.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: This one is the

11 bare pump.

12 MR. HUBER: See, but the motor is

13 never we never consider the motor.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: I understand this

15 is not anything 

16 MR. HUBER: There is a reason. 

17 There is a reason because if you if

18 you've got a more efficient motor and you're

19 not using that calculation, then it shows up

20 in the pump as being more efficient. 

21 Conversely, if you you know, if you take 

22 do you understand? That's the way it works. 
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1 I've seen it work on my testing. I'm telling

2 you, we test this stuff every day.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, go ahead.

4 MR. HUBER: I know what I'm

5 talking about.

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

7 Cappellino. Al, you're assuming for a wire to

8 water type of test.

9 MR. HUBER: No. I'm talking about

10 a bare what she's saying what she's

11 saying, Charlie what she's saying is they

12 are going to give you a motor efficiency to

13 use for your bare pump test.

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes.

15 MR. HUBER: And if you happen to

16 have a motor that's less efficient and you're

17 testing how can you shake your head no? Do

18 you know what every motor I get is exactly the

19 same efficiency?

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: Can I explain?

21 MS. WIDDER: Yes. I think Charlie

22 should try.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes. So I think

2 what they're saying, Al, is you can test the

3 pump independently of the motor. Okay? Take

4 the motor completely out of the picture during

5 your test setup, put in a torque bar or

6 something else, okay? 

7 You test the motor excuse me,

8 test the pump independently, and then all

9 you're doing is looking up on a table and

10 saying, "Okay. I'm going to use a premium

11 efficiency motor to qualify this pump" and

12 plug that into the equation. And if that

13 premium efficiency motor is 95 percent instead

14 of 94 percent, you're going to get a better

15 overall efficiency 

16 MR. HUBER: I agree with you,

17 Charlie.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: package.

19 MR. HUBER: I agree with you,

20 Charlie.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay.

22 MR. HUBER: But the problem is
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1 that's not what she said. She said, "We're

2 going to give you an efficiency to use when

3 you test your bare pump with a motor."

4 MS. WIDDER: So let me clarify.

5 MR. HUBER: That's what she said.

6 MS. WIDDER: There's two I may

7 have maybe I said something that was

8 confusing. What Charlie said was exactly

9 correct.

10 MR. HUBER: Okay. I'm fine with

11 that.

12 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: I think maybe we're

14 confusing the bare pump testing with the pump

15 plus motor testing. So we just want to have

16 those conversations be distinct I think. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So before we move

18 on, then, Chuck, please.

19 MR. POWERS: Okay. So in the real

20 world, pump guys, motor guys let me just

21 try to back up here a little bit. The

22 decisions we are going to make at the period
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1 here, the end of this time frame, whatever, if

2 we're allowed to stick with it, is going to

3 impact 3 to 500,000 jobs. You say, "How can

4 that be?"

5 If you take Al's group, this

6 guy's, mine, others, our companies add up to

7 X. These are just domestic players. In order

8 to improve efficiency, there is all kinds of

9 things. One way is solid modeling, smoothness

10 of the material, all kinds of stuff. What

11 does that impact? Foundries.

12 If we don't get this right, it's

13 not just the pump guys, it's the foundries,

14 it's the machine shops. You start adding

15 those numbers up, we're talking lots and lots

16 of people.

17 Now, why do I bring that up? 

18 We're going to need to do it. Right? Big

19 issues. But more importantly is if the DO C,

20 Commerce Department, pressures us and we go

21 to meetings all the time "We need you to

22 ship more export," what I try to get back in
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1 my head is, if for a given unit on that board

2 we set up the 200 horse, okay, NEMA pretty

3 simple they don't make a 198, they don't

4 make a 172, they make a 200, 175, 150, and

5 I've been around this so long I forget.

6 So, bear with me, if you were to

7 list 200, Chuck, down to one horsepower,

8 whatever the heck it is and, again, keeping

9 the circulators out for a second, right? And

10 say the standard we have in agreement with

11 these motor guys is for that 200 it's X, for

12 175 it's Y, you know, whatever those

13 efficiencies are, just like Sarah was trying

14 to explain. No problem, right?

15 And if they have a stamp that

16 says, "We happened to buy that motor" because

17 the customer's spec wrote it that way, we're

18 not going to do anything differently. We're

19 going to say, you know, this is the efficiency

20 they're saying, and somebody can combine the

21 two and it adds up.

22 What I'm worried about is we're
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1 going to compete offshore. If we're going to

2 compete domestically, it isn't all just about

3 efficiency, right? There's price, there's low

4 cost sourcing. Which motor is made in the

5 States anymore? Have you gone to all 500

6 motor manufacturers and got the standards set

7 up?

8 Because if we're going to buy to

9 have, you know, low cost sourcing, all of

10 these other things that are done that we have

11 to do every day to compete and then my

12 other concern is, are we going to put a

13 standard here in the States that you want us

14 to build stuff here in the States and ship

15 offshore to Venezuela, to Asia, which we all

16 do, right? That is going to say to us now,

17 "Oh, you have to add all of this extra money

18 to do these things," which is a good thing,

19 don't get me wrong, but all of these other

20 factors the guy over in Asia says, "I don't

21 care about this motor thing. I'll just buy

22 this motor." Right? And then we're non
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1 competitive.

2 So there's two pieces here. One

3 is in my head I'm saying for a given diameter

4 for BEP these different pump models have to

5 meet X, you know, whatever that is for that

6 process that we're going to define, the MEI,

7 whatever.

8 And if there's motors out there,

9 you're going to define what those have to be,

10 not us, right? And then the combined unit,

11 you know, by definition could end up being

12 what we all want to achieve. No argument. 

13 But not everybody buys VFDs, right? They are

14 very expensive. We all know that. And, you

15 know, there's factors involved, right? 

16 Now, we all agree that it's

17 getting better, but it isn't like it used to

18 be, right?

19 So I just worry there is a factor

20 here, what are we going to impact, and what

21 could be affected by this significantly?

22 And then, the last thing I'll say,
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1 as Sarah brought up, the package it was

2 said in the EU standard, it was stated many

3 times the package efficiency no doubt is

4 the best option. But you can you know,

5 since mezuzah, you know, was involved many,

6 many years ago, we may get an amount of erg

7 out of the efficiency of the pump.

8 We put all the experts together,

9 loss foam, all kinds of smoothness factors and

10 all, if the pump is at 80 some percent today,

11 we are not going to go to 90, right? By

12 definition. Just by different physics and

13 laws and mathematical equations, whatever you

14 want to do.

15 So there's a small gain on the

16 pump maybe whereas the system there's a major

17 gain.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, and then

19 Paul Lin.

20 MR. ADIN: I just want to make

21 sure a couple of things are clear. First of

22 all, with respect to the bare pump metric, we
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1 are not proposing anything that would require

2 the use of a motor that has the actual assumed

3 efficiency that would be in other words,

4 that assumption about the motor efficiency is

5 only for the purpose of comparing the pump's

6 efficiency to the standard. You are just

7 coming up with a number. 

8 We are not actually requiring that

9 that particular pump be used with 

10 physically with motor efficiency X when it's

11 shipped. Is that is there any confusion

12 about that? I don't that's what I seem to

13 be hearing from what you were saying. I might

14 be misunderstanding that point, but 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: The pump

16 efficiency, as I understand it correct me

17 here the pump efficiency is going to be

18 determined by some sort of a setup with a

19 motor that is very completely specified. 

20 Right?

21 MR. ADIN: No. The 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: No?
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1 MS. WIDDER: What Lucas is saying

2 is what you just described where someone

3 can buy or you have certified the pump

4 efficiency, and using the DOE metric that we

5 have that the metric we're discussing, you

6 use a standardized motor efficiency that's

7 consistent with a minimally compliant motor

8 for the purposes of DOE's regulations. That's

9 probably what we'd pick.

10 But whoever buys the bare shaft

11 pump, or whoever you sell it to, can pair the

12 pump with whatever they want. You are not

13 beholden to what they want to pair it with. 

14 If the customer specs only the bare shaft pump

15 and only the motor somewhere else, then that's

16 what they that's their prerogative and

17 that's not your responsibility.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I promised Paul he

19 could have a shot at this.

20 MR. LIN: This is Paul Lin with

21 Regal Beloit. Just maybe to address Chuck's

22 concern. I think we're just talking about
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1 United States standards. Anything for export

2 is not not within the coverage of the

3 scope. And whatever you're building for

4 export for can be marked for export and comply

5 with whatever standards you want to comply

6 with.

7 MR. POWERS: And I agree Paul, and

8 it 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, go ahead.

10 MR. POWERS: in today's world,

11 right, if Al is going to make and I'm just

12 going to pick a number 1,000 pumps, and I'm

13 thinking it makes two actually, but 1,000

14 pumps, but but if he makes 1,000 pumps, his

15 CIP people, his QUAD people, demands he put

16 his operations is to look at lean, to look

17 at manufacturing improvements, et cetera. 

18 It's to compete today, to stay alive, to pay

19 people, right? To be able to stay in

20 business.

21 In order to do that, it would

22 behoove him, meaning it would be very
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1 negative, if he'd say, "Okay. I'm going to

2 average 100 pumps a month going domestically,

3 but that same plant here in the U.S. is going

4 to make the other 900 we're going to export." 

5 It ain't going to work that way. You're not

6 going to have two assembly lines. You're not

7 going to have two DFTs. You're not going to

8 have you know what I mean? Demand flow. 

9 It isn't going to work that way.

10 So what we're trying to say is we

11 get it, we're trying to say how can we make

12 this as reasonable as possible so several

13 hundred thousand people don't get affected.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Louis, do

15 you want to 

16 MR. STARR: Well, I think I got 

17 so, really, what the problem is is by having 

18 you're having to sell to multiple markets,

19 which means you need multiple motors now to go

20 with your pumps. And so now and pumps.

21 So basically what it is is it's

22 dividing up your product line, and now you're
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1 having to essentially make more product lines

2 than you were before in order but I'm

3 wondering how that would be different in the

4 U.S. market with stuff that you sell

5 domestically already, because you have to put

6 a NEMA motor on there. So I'm trying to see

7 how that how is that changing your what

8 you sell right today? Because you have to put 

9 for the products you're selling with the

10 motor that go into the U.S. market, it has to

11 have this motor that they're talking about.

12 So I'm trying to see how business

13 wise your business model how that affects

14 it negatively, because this is really I

15 mean, they chose motor efficiency, but they

16 could have chosen, you know, pi. You know,

17 just multiply it by 3.14, and this is the

18 requirement you have to meet.

19 So what I'm trying to understand

20 is why is this number if it's something

21 that you're selling in the U.S. market, which

22 is what is supposed to be sold, is really 
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1 it seems like an arbitrary number that they

2 are using.

3 MR. POWERS: Because there could

4 be changes to the pump to do what you've got

5 to do, what you're asking. 

6 MR. STARR: But not into the

7 current product line, right?

8 MR. POWERS: I see it. I see it. 

9 Okay?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, do you want to

11 restate what maybe someone can restate what 

12

13 MR. POWERS: Let me just finish

14 one last thing.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck. Chuck is

16 not quite finished. Chuck, go ahead.

17 MR. POWERS: Twenty years ago, how

18 many motor manufacturers were in the U.S.? 

19 How many today? How many pump guys 20 years

20 ago were in the U.S.? And how many today?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

22 MR. HUBER: Our group needs to
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1 caucus.

2 MS. WIDDER: So I just 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait a second, Al.

4 MS. WIDDER: This is really short.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah, no, let's

6 let Al go. Go ahead, Al.

7 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Go ahead, Al.

8 MR. HUBER: Our group needs to

9 caucus.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

11 MR. HUBER: There is no question

12 about that. But I want to throw this out

13 quickly and then our people can talk about it. 

14 We came up with an MEI and an EEI. It is just

15 a it's the way we calculate it. We can

16 call it all MEI, but we all know that the

17 total efficiency of the product the bare

18 pump is going to be more efficient. Then, we

19 add a motor and it's going to be less

20 efficient. Then, we're going to add a drive

21 and it's going to be less efficient.

22 So you are going to get different
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1 efficiency numbers. I mean, you are going to

2 get different results, and you do have to

3 change the calculations. But you can call it

4 anything you want to call it.

5 MS. WIDDER: Right.

6 MR. HUBER: So you can say it's

7 all an MEI or all an EEI. It doesn't make any

8 difference.

9 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Doesn't make

10 any difference. 

11 So a couple of things. I think 

12 to your point, Chuck, I think we are DOE

13 spent a lot of time thinking about

14 manufacturer burden, and will continue to do

15 so. And pump redesign is I mean, if we

16 pick an MEI that's bare pump only, you still

17 have to think about pump redesign burden. I

18 mean, there is just no getting around that,

19 regardless of what the metric is. 

20 So I think that's just sort of a

21 high level thing that we are just going to put

22 on the back burner for now.
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1 MR. POWERS: I agree, Sarah.

2 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

3 MR. POWERS: I agree. Let me just

4 say one 

5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Sure.

6 MR. POWERS: if I may, okay? I

7 totally agree, but what I'm trying to do is

8 not represent Flowserve. I'm on this

9 committee to represent pump people. There's

10 a bunch of small pump people out there doing

11 a great job employing so many people that

12 aren't going to be able to afford or deal with

13 the changes you're asking. And that's a fact,

14 too, and they're going to go out of business. 

15 But I want to at least give enough of a view

16 to say let's give them a fighting chance.

17 MS. WIDDER: Yes. So we'll try to

18 consider them, too. And I appreciate that

19 you're representing them.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I just say

21 something real quick on that issue? Just to

22 throw it out?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: In a few minutes

2 we'll take a caucus break.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So this might

4 potentially offer some flexibility to the

5 small manufacturers, because if you don't want

6 to hydraulically redesign your pump, you can

7 pair a super efficient motor with it and sell

8 it out the door I don't know if people

9 would really do that, but I'm just throwing it

10 out that this gives you a little flexibility

11 in the choices you would make.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour gets

13 the final comment and then we're going to

14 caucus.

15 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with

16 TACO. I really think, you know, you guys are

17 really missing something here, and that is

18 it's not necessarily the best efficient point

19 to that pump that is really going to save you

20 energy. It's when you have engineers out

21 there in the marketplace today that are

22 selecting pumps that don't even match their
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1 point of design isn't even close to the point

2 of operation. 

3 That's when you start seeing all

4 of these valves going into systems, eating up

5 energy, that anything we do to these pumps,

6 short of going to the extended product

7 approach, is not going to address. And the

8 extended product approach is your best

9 approach for trying to eliminating many of

10 those wasteful energy consuming components in

11 the system, in my opinion. I mean, I don't

12 know if the rest of you guys agree with that

13 or not.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So how long do you

15 think you would need to have a caucus?

16 MR. HUBER: About five or 10

17 minutes.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Five to 10 minutes?

19 MR. HUBER: Yes.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's caucus for 10

21 minutes, which means we will resume at 9:25. 

22 Can I speak with the energy efficiency caucus
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1 members?

2 (Whereupon, the proceedings in the

3 above-entitled matter went off the record at

4 9:16 a.m. and went back on the record at 9:46

5 a.m.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, as a process

7 note, I appreciate when a caucus is needed

8 that people say we should have a caucus. 

9 That's good. 

10 And now how should I proceed at

11 this point? How should we proceed? Do you

12 want to report back from the caucus? Al

13 Huber?

14 MR. HUBER: Yes. What we would

15 like to do is for you to tell us exactly what

16 you have in mind, and we are going to try to

17 hold our we are going to try to hold our

18 comments or anything until you are completely

19 done, until we know what your idea is, what

20 your not only the high level test method

21 but also how you are planning on judging it.

22 You know, we proposed an MEI. Are
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1 you planning on using that formula, those

2 strategies? We want to know everything there

3 is to know about what you've got in mind. And

4 then once we know that, then we'll start

5 making comments. But we decided as a group we

6 are going to kind of withhold that any

7 comment until we get your full picture of what

8 you are trying to achieve.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: That seems very

10 sensible. And also, it may be that after you

11 hear all of this, maybe you will want to

12 caucus again. We are you know, we are due

13 to take a break in another half an hour, 15,

14 20 minutes.

15 Chuck.

16 MR. POWERS: And because of that,

17 to be fair to all the people that aren't

18 represented, it may take us three or four

19 months to talk to them about all of this

20 before we vote on anything.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna Mauer.

22 MS. MAUER: And I just wanted to
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1 add I think if we can also talk about kind

2 of what we're trying to accomplish and, you

3 know, what are there significant energy

4 savings at stake here, just to you know, as

5 part of this discussion, but aside from kind

6 of any legal issues which I think are still

7 kind of unresolved.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So, Joanna,

9 say a little more about that. Do you mean 

10 say a little more about what you mean by 

11 about what we're ultimately trying to

12 accomplish.

13 MS. MAUER: So I think I started

14 saying yesterday, you know, to me the value 

15 or kind of the potential value when we talk

16 about extended products is so we know that

17 there are huge savings that can be achieved by

18 using variable speed drives.

19 I think the high level question

20 is, is there a way through this rulemaking to

21 encourage more applications? 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MS. MAUER: To encourage these

2 extended products with variable speed drives

3 and more applications. And, you know, just 

4 you know, if you're selling an extended

5 product today, that's not subject to a

6 standard, and then if you're selling that same

7 extended product tomorrow and it has to meet

8 some standard, does that actually affect

9 purchases?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we're

11 just going to put that in the hopper. Just

12 hold that for hi, Steve. Good to see you.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

14 EEI. Again, sorry for the delay. I am seeing

15 the slides, and I see the word "motor." 

16 Shouldn't that be "driver"?

17 (Laughter.)

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for the

19 specifics. That's helpful. Now, so, Steve,

20 since you've joined us, we had a rather

21 detailed discussion on kind of the

22 fundamentals of test methods, which is
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1 something you know a fair amount about. And

2 talking about the various approaches to the

3 test metric.

4 And industry folks had a caucus,

5 and now they are going everybody is going

6 to listen and they are going to try they

7 are going to go through an explanation again

8 after Lucas speaks.

9 MR. ADIN: All right. So I just

10 wanted to address a few points up front here,

11 now that we are kind of resetting the

12 discussion, starting from hopefully

13 starting fresh. I mean, we had some

14 substantive discussion on this item

15 previously, and I think we are, in some

16 respects, kind of talking circles around each

17 other because this is a complex topic and

18 there are a lot of things at stake, obviously,

19 and so we want to make sure that we're all

20 clear on what we are really talking about,

21 what the intent is.

22 So, first of all, just as an up
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1 front point, it certainly wasn't my vision

2 that we would be voting on anything related to

3 this today. I think, really, we just wanted

4 to set up a discussion to make sure that we

5 kind of got the ball rolling on the topic of

6 metric and test procedure, because certainly

7 we are going to be addressing these things,

8 whether it's in the next meeting or the one

9 after that, in much more specific terms.

10 And these things will become vital

11 to doing the analysis we will need to do for

12 evaluating a standard relatively soon.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a very good

14 point.

15 MR. ADIN: So we want to make sure

16 that we understand that up front, and so

17 clearly to make sure we are talking about this

18 the same way, we need to start getting into

19 the details more and that's fine. I just

20 wanted to make sure that was clear up front.

21 The other aspect of this that I

22 think might have been causing some confusion
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1 is that from a fundamental or at a

2 fundamental level DOE is not on a not of a

3 different mind set when it comes to recognize

4 the benefits of an extended system or a system

5 that uses a VSD. I think we want a metric

6 that really is essentially along the same

7 lines as the EEI that was brought forward by

8 HI.

9 I think there is clearly a lot of

10 benefit to be shown by using a metric that

11 recognizes the use of variable speed systems

12 under varying load, compared with a system

13 that is varying its load based on throttling. 

14 And so we are looking for a metric that would

15 be able to accomplish that, and we are going

16 to explain that in a little more detail 

17 what we had in mind, but so getting past

18 the terminology MEI, EEI I mean, I think

19 in conceptual terms we are actually talking

20 about the same thing.

21 We are starting with that extended

22 product metric and drawing it back and just
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1 making sure that it's actually the same metric

2 all the way through. It's just recognizing

3 the energy savings benefits of those different

4 configurations using the same analytical

5 metric. And we'll explain what we're talking

6 about in a little more detail.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm eager to give

8 them a chance. But Mike Rivest wants to make

9 a comment. So, Mike Rivest, please join us. 

10 Mike Rivest is a team leader with Navigant. 

11 Mike, Speak up. We can't hear you, Mike.

12 MR. RIVEST: Can you hear me now?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. We can hear

14 you now. Yes.

15 MR. RIVEST: Okay. Well, I think

16 Lucas has essentially covered what I wanted to

17 speak. I had a chance to talk to the team at

18 the break, and so I don't need to say any more

19 at this point.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, thanks

21 for listening in.

22 Louis, a comment, and then we're
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1 going to return to the team.

2 MR. STARR: So I think what Joanna

3 was speaking about when she mentioned that

4 first thing, and then Lucas just mentioned

5 that this energy efficiency index, which may

6 be re-termed something else now, he is saying

7 that that would discourage the use of valving

8 down systems. And that's the part I think she

9 is not really clear how that is going to

10 encourage things in the marketplace.

11 If I have an energy efficiency

12 index, I could still do that exact same thing

13 as an owner. It's like, hmm, I don't want to

14 buy VFD. I'll just valve down my outside

15 supply. So that's when she is referring

16 to, how does that encourage more people to

17 install VFDs rather than just valving down,

18 that's what she is getting at.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I got you.

20 MR. STARR: So that would be 

21 that's kind of we're having a lot of

22 discussion, but we what we're kind of
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1 wanting to understand, I have some different

2 thoughts about what you where you're

3 gaining that efficiency, but 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So, but let's

5 proceed here. Let's hear from Sarah and

6 Alison. Take it away. Use the microphone.

7 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So thanks for

8 that sort of setup. I think, like Lucas said,

9 we are going to try and restart the

10 conversation, and actually Joanna mentioned,

11 we are going to start the conversation at the

12 opposite end of where we started before,

13 talking about how the metric might capture the

14 benefits of a controlled system, and then as

15 compared to an uncontrolled system, and then

16 how analytically we could apply a similar

17 metric construct to pumps that are sold

18 without controls, which we you know, we

19 will still need to offer for sale in the

20 market for specific applications, to your

21 point.

22 So there will be some
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1 consideration about, are we pushing people

2 towards VSDs or not? But that's we can

3 have that discussion later.

4 So at a high level, the idea is if

5 you have this actually, will you go two

6 slides down? If you have the case where it's

7 a pump and a driver and controls all together,

8 not talking about testing versus calculation

9 methods, we want to capture the efficiency of

10 the pump the efficiency of the driver

11 system or the energy use of the pump the

12 energy the driver system and the energy use

13 or reduced energy use that is possible from a

14 control at lower flow conditions.

15 So our thought here, just for a

16 standardized way of calculating this 

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Which is HI's.

18 MS. WIDDER: This is very similar 

19 we took a lot of ideas from the comments

20 submitted by HI. So the idea would be you set

21 up a pump. You're measuring the energy use of

22 a pumping system, including a driver and
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1 controls, at 100 percent of BEP flow. That's

2 what this 100 refers to here.

3 It could be 100 gallons per minute

4 for this example, but it's 100 percent of BEP

5 flow at this point. And then, measure that

6 same energy use at 75 percent of BEP flow,

7 allowing the VSD to reduce the speed of the

8 motor, and so then attaining a lower energy

9 use condition.

10 And we wanted we have to use

11 energy use here, just as a clarification, as

12 opposed to efficiency because the efficiency

13 won't really show that dramatic of a change as

14 you go down the system curve. It is really

15 the energy use that is significantly reduced.

16 And then measuring again the

17 energy use of the system at 50 percent flow

18 condition and 25 percent flow condition. And

19 when I say measure, I want to be clear that we

20 are not actually measuring every single

21 combination of motor controls and pumps. We

22 sort of had a long discussion about that
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1 before where just the metric is representing

2 the energy use of all those three components

3 at these four rating points.

4 And we are considering doing that

5 with a calculation method, so that the

6 different combinations of motors and drivers

7 and controls and pumps can be considered

8 analytically or be a calculation. You don't

9 have to test every you know, all of the

10 thousands of combinations you might have.

11 So I don't know if we I guess

12 we can talk through how that might work in

13 this case and then go back to the pump plus

14 motor case. So in this case you would measure 

15 you would put the pump in the test stand and

16 measure the efficiency of the pump at these

17 four rating points. And it could be you

18 know, we can have a discussion later on about

19 whether in the EU for circulators this is

20 more of a straight line, and this is drawn

21 more like a system curve that is a parabolic. 

22 That's what DOE is considering. Or, you know,
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1 what's on here, this piece of paper. But we

2 can definitely have more discussions about

3 that.

4 But, theoretically, you would just

5 measure the shaft horsepower provided to the

6 pump at these rating points. Then you would

7 have your standardized motor nameplate

8 efficiency that would be applied to that brake

9 horsepower supplied to the pump, and then a

10 determination of VSD efficiency that would

11 need to be accounted for. So additional, you

12 know, losses that are associated with the

13 controls.

14 But you still get a significantly

15 reduced power number because your brake

16 horsepower supplied to the pump is so much

17 lower when you allow for reduced speed. And

18 that is the metric that theoretically, just at

19 a high level, is the metric we are wanting to

20 achieve and represent for a controlled system.

21 And then for an uncontrolled

22 system, so if we take it back, we have a motor
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1 and a pump, or a driver and a pump with no

2 controls, you would start at the same

3 location, but you would be moving on the pump

4 curve, not on the system curve, at those same

5 four load points. And this would just be what 

6 essentially what you would achieve if you

7 throttled the system back to those same four

8 flow conditions.

9 And you would also theoretically

10 want to well, so you would compare the same

11 brake horsepower that you measure at these

12 four points, and then a standardized or

13 nameplate motor efficiency applied to those

14 brake horsepower, add them all four up with

15 some sort of weighting, and then you have a

16 metric that's a much higher power much

17 higher energy use for the uncontrolled case

18 than for the controlled case.

19 And then, very similarly for the

20 bare pump case, instead of taking a nameplate

21 motor efficiency, you have a lookup table. 

22 You just have one motor efficiency that is
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1 applied. Al is looking confused, so I'm going

2 to say that again. So the pump the bare

3 pump and the pump plus motor case would be

4 identical from a pump efficiency testing 

5 they are actually all identical from a pump

6 testing perspective. You measure the brake

7 horsepower at each of these flow points and

8 you have that brake horsepower.

9 In the pump plus motor case, you 

10 as we discussed earlier, you have a motor

11 nameplate efficiency that you are intending or

12 are selling the pump with. It is packaged

13 together. That's how it's being sold into the

14 market.

15 In the bare pump case, it could be

16 sold with any number of motors, and you are

17 just certifying the bare pump, and then using

18 a number that is provided as part of the test

19 procedure; that is, the minimally efficient

20 motor.

21 So if you were to so you have 

22 you measure your pump efficiency, you apply
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1 a minimally efficient motor. If we talk about

2 options for efficiency, I have the option of

3 just pairing a more efficient motor and

4 accounting for that in my pump plus motor

5 combination.

6 Or I have the option of adding

7 controls and then achieving a much more

8 efficient or much lower energy using system. 

9 So that, at a high level, is what we were

10 trying to talk through earlier.

11 The A and B on these slides, which

12 we got a little bit confused about earlier,

13 was something that we were thinking about. Is

14 it appropriate that we apply calculations to

15 every system? Or would it be advantageous to

16 have a physical wire to water test in some

17 cases, for example, submersibles, end suction

18 close coupled pumps that are is difficult

19 to measure brake horsepower directly. 

20 I understand you can do it with

21 calibrated motor and back it out, but in those

22 cases, would you want a wire to water test as
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1 opposed to having brake horsepower and then

2 applying nameplate values. That was the

3 reasoning behind having the A and B options.

4 But, theoretically, at a high

5 level the metric would be constructed the

6 same. You would just then have input power to

7 the motor and then apply some savings due to

8 controls or measure input power to the motor

9 at these four flow points. 

10 So I think that's all. Is there

11 anything else I should add at this point? I

12 think we're good.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

15 EEI. So, again, at the high level, are you

16 kind of talking about three metrics, kind of

17 a bare pump metric, a bare pump and driver

18 metric, and then a bare pump, driver, and

19 control metric? Because it sounded like you

20 could do all three in a way. Because you said 

21 remember you said something about bare pump

22 lookup with an efficiency.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Right.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, I'm just

3 trying to 

4 MS. WIDDER: Right. So 

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: on this high

6 level 

7 MS. WIDDER: Yes. High level, the

8 idea is to have the same metric for all. So

9 if we actually wrote out what was in these 

10 what was captured in these P values, it would

11 be the idea is to capture the input power

12 to the -- input energy 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

14 MS. WIDDER: to this pump,

15 which based on slides way, way back include a

16 motor and controls driver and controls. 

17 And then so this is basically capturing this

18 energy input. You could call it E, energy

19 input, on the up front side, in each case at

20 each of these load points, so we're trying to

21 apply that consistently, but they might be

22 treated as different equipment classes.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So I'll

2 just kind of keep it to high level. I'm

3 familiar with you know, what they do for

4 cooling equipment is IPLV or IEER, where they

5 also do this. They do different loadings, but

6 they also do a weighted you know, P for 100

7 percent, let's say, is five percent. P at 75

8 is, let's say, 45 percent or 50 percent. And

9 then 50 percent just kind of weighted based

10 on some field data that they have in terms of,

11 okay, for that chiller or that air

12 conditioner, how much is it really loaded in

13 the real world in terms of time to different

14 loading?

15 So, again, I don't know if you

16 want to if weighting is going to play into

17 this calculation or not. It's up to the

18 group, obviously. That is you know, that

19 is one consideration.

20 The other thing I wanted to say

21 when you talk about, you know, let's call it,

22 whether it's a motor or a driver motors are
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1 only the rating on the nameplate is only at

2 100 percent. So if the pump or the flow is to

3 50 percent, that nameplate rating is not 

4 now typically with luckily with motors,

5 with most of them, you know, the 50 percent

6 efficiency is very close to 100 percent. But

7 if you're below 50 percent, watch out. That's

8 the other thing.

9 So, again, I guess conceptually in

10 terms of that, that issue is, do you have to

11 adjust for it? Or do you just do it for the

12 basic case at one testing point? I'm just 

13 again, conceptually, rather than four testing

14 points of the basic case. If you're just

15 trying to rely on the driver rated efficiency,

16 you just want one rating condition.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to be

18 very systematic about the way we do this. Do

19 you have additional comments based on what he

20 said?

21 MS. WIDDER: Sure. I'll just

22 address a couple of things really quickly, and
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1 then I want to let Charlie go. So in answer

2 to or I agree with a lot of the points you

3 made. We could consider weightings. That

4 could be the same or different for any of

5 these load points. Additionally, these flow

6 conditions could be different than what has

7 been presented here.

8 This is just a proposal that is

9 based on the EEI metric that HI presented. I

10 put a star by this one, because if we consider

11 this throttled case there is actually quite a

12 number of pumps that can't achieve 25 percent

13 of BEP flow with throttling. So we might want

14 to consider different flow conditions. But,

15 yes, all those points.

16 And we did have a discussion

17 earlier about applying full load motor

18 efficiency to all of these rating points, and

19 the fact that we are making some

20 accommodations for the burden of applying the

21 test procedure but sacrificing a little bit of

22 accuracy. But thankfully, like you mentioned,
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1 you know, if we keep the range of the motor

2 loading, you know, we might be okay.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 MS. WIDDER: So then we can

5 consider that.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie is first in

7 the queue.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thank you.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: And then Louis.

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

11 Cappellino, ITT. I wanted to kind of tie it

12 back to what Joanna said. And just for

13 clarity, when I have heard people talk about

14 metrics, one of the first things that you ask

15 is, what behavior are you trying to drive, or

16 what actions are you trying to drive.

17 So could you spend just a little

18 bit of time, do you have some thoughts in your

19 head or ideas in terms of when we kind of step

20 back and look at a big picture standpoint,

21 from an extended product standpoint, and

22 everything else, I mean, do you have specific
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1 ideas in mind in terms of what behaviors you

2 are trying to drive here?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

4 MR. ADIN: So the answer to that

5 is yes, and, I mean, I think there are two

6 different potential influences that this

7 metric could have. And it depends on what the

8 pump customer is ultimately trying to

9 accomplish, obviously.

10 So if they're in a situation where

11 they could contemplate the use of either a

12 throttled system or a VSD based multiple speed

13 system, this potentially could represent the

14 energy savings that they could get from going

15 to an energy saving decision. Right. They

16 could accomplish that.

17 If they're in a position where

18 they are only going to be operating single

19 speed, there is no advantage to them

20 whatsoever to buy a VSD based system, well, it

21 still would provide the advantage of being

22 able of them being able to compare systems
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1 or pumps within the same arrangement, in other

2 words. So there would still be a metric that

3 allows them to evaluate which particular pump,

4 pump plus motor, is more efficient than

5 another and make a good purchasing decision on

6 that basis.

7 So, really, there are two

8 dimensions across which they could potentially

9 find a way to save energy.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

11 MR. ADIN: That's the general

12 idea.

13 MR. STARR: And perhaps, you know,

14 it may be I guess the EEI, I'm not sure if

15 that's exactly what the HI guys have. But it

16 seems like the flatness of the pump curve

17 could also be not necessarily with respect of

18 the MEI rating, so you could actually be

19 running counter purposes.

20 The MEI essentially cuts out a

21 certain percentage of the pumps, and then so

22 then you are adding overlaying on that a
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1 certain if the curve is flatter instead of

2 sharper, then your rating seems like it's

3 affecting it's adding a second dimension

4 which may or may not be of value.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I've got a question

6 for 

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I respond?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Please.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: So on that topic we

10 have done some brief looks at that, and adding

11 additional load points in the motor does

12 potentially change slightly if a so if we

13 assumed, like MEI 40, right, and we did an

14 analysis of which pumps passed and which pumps

15 failed, and then instead we applied this

16 metric, there are some pumps that would

17 change. But overall it would be essentially

18 the same.

19 So there is a few near the border

20 that it would make a difference to, but in

21 general in a lot of you know, in a

22 single product class, for a single specific
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1 speed, there is not I probably shouldn't be

2 saying this in front of all of these pump

3 manufacturers, but there is not a huge amount

4 of variability in the pump curve for a single

5 product class, a single specific speed. So

6 where those fall isn't a huge deal. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is go

8 ahead, Louis. Keep going.

9 MR. STARR: I was just going to 

10 well, another thing is that sort of you're

11 modeling bad behavior, too. So your metric 

12 in other words, valving off is a bad idea. 

13 So you're sort of you're setting your

14 metric to a bad idea, which kind of inherently

15 seems like it's not a good idea.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Several people wish

17 to speak. I want to do one thing before I go

18 to Greg and then to Doug.

19 This seems like a fairly

20 fundamental question, and this is from Arnold

21 either Sdano or is that it? Arnold asks,

22 how will the reduced motor and VFD efficiency
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1 due to reduced speed and loads be accounted

2 for?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. 

4 So we have looked into that, and we 

5 MS. WIDDER: No. He can't see

6 what we're drawing.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh. He can't 

8 MS. WIDDER: He can't see what

9 we're drawing.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, but he is

11 talking about reduced efficiency, which we

12 didn't really talk about. Well, Sarah briefly

13 mentioned, you know, the discussion of whether

14 using full load motor efficiency is

15 acceptable, and obviously efficiency of VSD

16 does drop off at part load.

17 So that is something that could

18 potentially be considered. DOE only certifies

19 motor efficiency at full load, so there are

20 some other considerations in looking at that. 

21 But we certainly thought about how that would

22 be accounted for.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. All of this

2 discussion has been Alison there, and now

3 to Greg Case.

4 MR. CASE: My question is this

5 is Greg Case, HI. My question is for Sarah. 

6 You guys actually pointed out a flaw in our

7 EEI when we met with you guys alone, that it

8 compares the pump against itself, not against

9 a reference pump.

10 So Europe has has changed that

11 to have a reference power, and I believe that

12 we need to do the same thing, so that we have

13 a common reference that we are working

14 against.

15 MS. WIDDER: So I think that's a

16 really good point, and something we have had

17 a lot of discussions about. HI's metric, just

18 for the benefit of everyone here, that was

19 proposed in response to the framework document

20 actually was these four points with a

21 denominator of these four points.

22 So it's really only comparing the
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1 unthrottled pump of a specific pump to the

2 controlled case. So you are looking at how

3 good a set of controls is on a given pump, but

4 you have no way of, yes, comparing that to

5 other pumps.

6 So we tried to address that in the

7 metric we discussed here by eliminating the

8 denominator all together. So we are just

9 looking at input power at these four points. 

10 There is no denominator.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: And because there

13 is no we think it's possibly okay that

14 there is no denominator, because the standard

15 can still be set as a function of specific

16 speed and flow.

17 So you don't everything doesn't

18 have to be normalized, because it will depend

19 on where you are on the specific speed and

20 flow curve.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts.

22 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts from
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1 American Water. I'm just wondering I

2 understand how measuring the characteristics

3 at different speeds can demonstrate the

4 savings, but in terms of like a test procedure

5 and a certification procedure, it seems to me

6 that, you know, the two components that play

7 into that are the affinity laws and then the

8 system head curve. We are not regulating the

9 system, and we can't change the affinity laws.

10 It seems like all that's doing is

11 confirming to us that the affinity laws are

12 true, and I don't see the value I don't 

13 unless I'm missing something, I don't see the

14 value in that. You're confirming a

15 mathematical theory that we already know to be

16 true.

17 And if you say, well like I

18 said, there's affinity laws and there's a

19 system. You say, well, we're going to use

20 standard system characteristics for the

21 certification. Why? Because every system is

22 going to be different, and, you know, you are
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1 just back to the affinity laws again. So 

2 MS. WIDDER: It is true that this

3 is an application of the affinity laws. And

4 the so the affinity laws are theoretical

5 pump laws that adjust that describe how

6 flow and head and power characteristics change

7 with respect to speed of the pump, for

8 everyone in the room.

9 So if you reduced so these are

10 different speeds, these lines that Alison 

11 these curves that Alison just drew. So if we

12 went from full speed to this reduced speed to

13 achieve a 75 percent flow condition, instead

14 of being up here, we're actually using much

15 less power based on the affinity laws.

16 And to your point, we are

17 essentially just confirming the affinity laws,

18 and we would have to assume or it would be

19 beneficial for repeatability's sake to assume

20 the same system curve for all certification

21 testing. But the benefit of the metric would

22 be that you are demonstrating the value of
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1 adjusting speed instead of other methods of

2 reducing flow on a given pump system.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

4 MR. ADIN: Just to elaborate a

5 little bit on that, I mean, I think really

6 what we're talking about is not so much

7 confirming the affinity laws, it's that we are

8 providing a standardized way to quantify the

9 difference, and understanding that specific

10 installations and systems are going to be

11 different in actual application. 

12 But it provides a numerical energy

13 savings estimate of what that actual

14 difference is for those two different I

15 don't know how the extent to which that

16 answers your question, but 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug, follow on.

18 MR. POTTS: Yes, Doug again. But

19 I guess I'm wondering, are you either, a)

20 using it to sort of communicate in your

21 document, hey, folks, using VFDs in systems

22 where you would have otherwise been throttling
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1 is a good idea, and here is an example

2 calculation of why it's a good idea. Is it

3 that, or are you actually saying that, for

4 those of you that sell pumps and VFDs, you

5 have to test this system in this manner, and

6 it has to meet certain criteria in this

7 manner.

8 And if that's the case, then I'm 

9 I don't see I don't see the value of that

10 other than it just is educational and showing

11 that showing somebody who doesn't believe

12 the affinity laws that, oh, yes, it actually

13 does work, you know.

14 (Laughter.)

15 Do you understand what I'm saying?

16 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

17 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, in

18 effect, it's actually both of those things,

19 because this system would be covered. I mean,

20 the standards would still be applicable, so

21 it's really in effect both, but 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck first, and
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1 then to Al.

2 MR. POWERS: Yes. Pump 101 is

3 good. Okay? Most of our engineers figure

4 through that in the first year because they

5 have to, right? And I get that you're

6 speaking to an audience, so that everybody

7 understands. But at the end of the day, the

8 people that have to make that happen are the

9 pump guys.

10 So we're probably past our Ph.D.

11 and get it, right? The question is, though --

12 your statement was wrong, Alison. You can

13 change the curve shape, not necessarily with

14 specific speed because specific speed is a

15 very defined value on a curve, max volume, and

16 all that kind of good stuff. But you can have

17 low capacity, medium capacity, a given wheel,

18 and you can change that shape. It's done

19 every day, and that's the real world out

20 there. Okay?

21 Now, don't throw me at the

22 functional numbers. I'll explain something in
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1 a second, okay? If you haven't laid out a

2 hydraulic profile of a pump, you may not know. 

3 So there's other factors we have to worry

4 about.

5 Going at 25 percent, based on the

6 specific speed and design, there is a thing

7 called NPSH. And the NPSH a lot of people

8 think goes down if no, it actually comes

9 back up to the left, and you may not be able

10 to run a pump at 25 percent. You get that. 

11 Okay.

12 Number two, on common header

13 systems versus single header, okay, you may

14 have a runout, you may have a condition which

15 most of the guys that Doug does, they will

16 pick that I wouldn't necessarily call it

17 the BEP, but they will pick that 100 percent

18 point where it impacts that system curve, not

19 necessarily the speed of the pump of the VFD

20 and all that stuff, because what ends up

21 happening, if it's a two pump system, if one

22 pump shuts down, the other one actually has to
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1 run out further because of the shape.

2 Number two, if you have a static

3 system or you have a lift system, the system

4 curve starts up higher on the left bar, right? 

5 So you may not need to get to 25 percent. I

6 mean, you get all that, right?

7 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

8 MR. POWERS: So what I'm saying

9 is, in the process you're talking about, the

10 actual hydraulic design and what we're going

11 to have to go through, the impact of this can

12 vary.

13 And, number two, running it just

14 by flow may not be the answer that I think

15 Doug is trying to get to, because if you use

16 a VFD in these others, they don't parallel

17 each other. Okay? You could go to 75

18 percent, and you may start at 100 percent

19 being a pump at 80 percent efficiency. 

20 Power savings I get, because, like

21 you said, I get the power savings thing. But

22 would you go to 75 percent? Yes. Power is
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1 going to be down, speed is down, everything

2 else. But all of a sudden your pump may be at

3 70 percent efficiency. It won't follow that

4 line.

5 In other words, the VFD will help

6 you on power reduction, but it's not going to

7 help you on the consumption issue, right, if

8 you look at it.

9 Now, the other item that I want to

10 propose is what Joanna brought up. It would

11 be good if everybody wanted to go buy VFDs. 

12 So if a pump is five bucks, and a motor is

13 five bucks, the VFD might be 100 bucks. 

14 People can't afford that. Not every system

15 out there is going to have VFD. It is a good

16 idea. It's a good thing to do. The question

17 is, do they need to throttle or don't they? 

18 Is there enough adjustments in the system that

19 validates having a VFD? 

20 But people aren't going to be able

21 to afford those kind of numerical numbers. So

22 if the standard is trying to say based on what
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1 you end up with, look at it this way. If it's

2 constant speed versus VFD, I'm okay with that

3 kind of like. But we have to be very careful

4 on product types and a lot of factors.

5 Now, the last thing is, on 200

6 horsepower and below versus 200 and above, you

7 get into 1,000, 5,000, Al does, I do, and

8 Charlie does over there, so all kinds of

9 really cool things we can do, customize pumps

10 to assist in making this perfect. Right?

11 But when you are talking about

12 standardized product going out every day,

13 right, we don't want to touch them. We want

14 to improve it, get it to a point, and we're

15 done. Right? And we just you know, they

16 come through every day, we don't test them

17 anymore, they pop out the door, and we're

18 meeting a certain so we're not going to be

19 touching these things. We're not going to be

20 looking at them. They're just the popcorn,

21 right? 

22 The second thing is, in 200
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1 horsepower and below, you get to the losses

2 issue to where you can't make that much of a

3 difference. Passageways are smaller. 

4 Clearances are different. You know, wear

5 rings, no wear rings, things like that. 

6 And then, efficiency, we also have

7 to be careful about how tight we tighten up

8 the specs. Clearances is it going to be

9 sustainable? Right?

10 MS. WIDDER: Right. So you

11 brought up a lot of I think those are all

12 good points, and Alison and I have been

13 listening. The one thing I do want to respond

14 to just real quickly that I thought you

15 brought up that was something that we should

16 just address a little bit more is the concept

17 of utility.

18 So we heard from Joanna and Louis

19 and some of the advocates we want a metric

20 that can help encourage energy savings I think

21 would is that a fair characterization? But

22 on the other side, we also want a metric that
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1 conserves utility for the customers of pumps

2 or the users of pumps. If they have a

3 constant head application, then we don't want

4 to push everyone to VSDs, because that's not

5 appropriate.

6 So I think we do have to be

7 cognizant of that balance, and so I just

8 wanted to that's a good point, and we are

9 trying to walk that line with this metric and

10 then we are also getting away from pump

11 efficiency. So there is no you don't have

12 to measure you don't have to be penalized

13 for reduced pump efficiency at these lower

14 flow points. The metric is sort of designed

15 that way. So just that just so you know.

16 MR. POWERS: Well, I don't totally

17 agree with you there, but my question would

18 be, have you done a study to say, what is the

19 current market on VFDs today, volume wise, how

20 many? If 100 pumps ship out the door, how

21 many use VFDs?

22 I know what EU says. I know what
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1 the independent reports have said, and I know

2 what the global numbers are. But have you

3 guys looked at it for the U.S. to find out 

4 but do you have that feedback to say the

5 volume is X? And we know how big the mountain

6 is.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So let me

8 just follow up on one thing in terms of 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: the balance that

11 Sarah is talking about. The discussion we're

12 having does not necessarily have anything to

13 do with equipment classes. So just because

14 there is a single metric for everything

15 doesn't mean there would necessarily be the

16 same standard for everything. 

17 So there can be decisions made

18 about whether these types of configurations

19 should have the same or different standards,

20 and that is a whole other conversation. So,

21 you know, but obviously these will use less

22 energy than these, right, and so there will be
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1 a spectrum, and there is different places that

2 you could choose to set the standard.

3 So that's not a de facto decision

4 that has already been made.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, I'm trying to

6 be systematic about this. Al Huber is next in

7 the queue, and then we're going to hear from 

8 I've forgotten your name.

9 MS. PETRILLO GROH: Laura Petrillo

10 Groh.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Laura.

12 Okay. Al, please.

13 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

14 Are you planning on, since there are no VFD

15 standards today, and since DOE standards,

16 motors are not an issue because as much an

17 issue because there are standards. There are

18 no standards on them, so are you proposing

19 that we test for the VFD? I mean, if you're

20 going to be reasonably accurate, that's what

21 you're going to have to do. I mean, I don't

22 see how you'd do it, because nowhere we can
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1 get that information other than by test.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So sorry,

3 this is Alison. The slide about the pump plus

4 motor controls, it's something that's still

5 being looked at. You could potentially test

6 with it. The other possibility to potentially

7 throw out is that AHRI has developed the motor

8 plus VFD program, and potentially that's one

9 source of information for that. But we don't 

10 haven't fully answered that yet.

11 MS. WIDDER: Oh, Lucas, and then I 

12

13 MR. ADIN: Let me just clarify

14 something here. I don't know that we're

15 necessarily proposing that you would have to

16 do a test, whether it be VFD, and determine

17 exactly what its efficiency is. I mean, if

18 you want to be exactly accurate, then, yes,

19 that's what you would need to do. 

20 But recognizing that the test

21 procedure, you know, is still a question and

22 there are obviously significant burden issues
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1 associated with doing that, I think more what

2 we're talking about is, you know, effectively

3 some kind of factor included in the metric,

4 whatever the calculation is that we come up

5 with. So essentially using a calculation to

6 recognize the benefits of the VFD and these

7 variable load conditions. 

8 It's not exactly what is the

9 precise efficiency of that VFD, because

10 ultimately we are not trying to put a standard

11 on the efficiency of VFDs themselves. 

12 MR. HUBER: We understand that. 

13 The thing that concerns me, though, is that

14 the cost benefit analysis and all the rest of

15 this is going to tie all the way back into

16 these things. And if you don't use something

17 that is reasonably accurate, I mean,

18 reasonably accurate and there are no

19 published standards today on what a VFD is at

20 75, 100 percent, 50, 25. 

21 Unless you do that unless you

22 do that, then and we have that, and you
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1 actually do that, then it will skew your

2 analysis. And that's what I'm concerned

3 about. If you test it, it's one thing. But

4 if you don't, we've got to have some published

5 data that's accurate, reasonably accurate.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Laura Petrillo

7 Groh.

8 MS. PETRILLO GROH: Laura Petrillo

9 Groh, AHRI. I feel like I'm going to sing a

10 song to you guys, and maybe I will.

11 So, yes, I'm glad that the order

12 turned out the way it did, because I can build

13 nicely on Al's comments, and I have a few

14 questions that I'd like to bring up at this

15 time.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

17 MS. PETRILLO GROH: AHRI 1210 does

18 provide a way to find the variable speed drive

19 or variable frequency drive efficiency. It's

20 the stand alone product efficiency using a

21 four pole motor at 40 percent, 75 percent 

22 40 percent, 50 percent, 75 percent, and 100
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1 percent efficiency.

2 The standard is relatively new,

3 was first published in 2011 I believe, and

4 there is a certification program that has been

5 launched. It's my understanding that there

6 are several manufacturers currently conducting

7 the testing to establish the numbers for their

8 products before listing them.

9 But looking at the slide with A, I

10 don't understand how that doesn't de facto

11 regulate variable speed drives, because we

12 discussed yesterday that a manufacturer could

13 be a distributor or contractor. So you would

14 need to provide a way to get the pump the

15 numbers you're getting from testing the pump,

16 and the numbers that you're getting testing

17 the VFD and motor combination.

18 So I think looking at motors other

19 than four pole motors, you may end up having 

20 you know, I don't know DOE does not have

21 the authority right now to regulate VSDs. And

22 you're going to end up with potentially
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1 duplicative standards for, you know, the VFD

2 manufacturers, establishing their testing

3 data.

4 They market these products, not

5 just the pumps but there are so many different

6 applications. It sounds like the pump guys

7 and, you know, the VFD guys are happy dating. 

8 They like when their distributors carry

9 multiple products, but they don't necessarily

10 want to marry those products together for 

11 you know, for all eternity.

12 So has there been an economic

13 impact analysis done which includes the VFD

14 manufacturers? I know there is not a working

15 group member that can represent them and speak

16 for them, so 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

18 MR. ADIN: Well, just to reiterate 

19 and maybe I wasn't clear enough earlier, but

20 I mean, we're not looking to regulate VFDs. 

21 We're regulating pumps. And so understanding

22 that the VFD in this particular case is a
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1 component of what we're, you know, looking at

2 as a pump, a certain configuration, the metric

3 can be designed such that you are not

4 necessarily compelling efficiency improvements

5 in the VFD.

6 That doesn't necessarily have to

7 happen, and it doesn't specifically have to

8 come down to, is the VFD efficient enough to

9 get to it's really more about using an

10 element of the metric that recognizes the

11 variable load component. It's not so much is

12 the VFD in itself efficient enough. 

13 Does that help address your

14 question, or is it 

15 MS. PETRILLO GROH: A little bit. 

16 Laura Petrillo, AHRI. It is not that you

17 know, I don't think the concern on the VFD

18 side is that you're driving, you know, the

19 increased system efficiency of that product. 

20 I think it's that you still would be required

21 to have a test procedure for a not covered 

22 for a product that is not covered to get the 
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1 what you've defined as "pump metrics."

2 MR. ADIN: I think that's

3 something we still have to discuss. You don't

4 necessarily have to do it that way. You could

5 come up with a metric that doesn't rely on

6 specific measurement of the VFD. It could

7 just be a factor that you include that takes

8 into account that variable load application.

9 MS. PETRILLO GROH: Okay. So

10 there are other scenarios where you are able

11 to do something similar to what you've just

12 described, and end up with a product that you

13 can test and enforce regulations on?

14 MR. ADIN: Oh, yes. And I think,

15 you know, it may be in the end that it's

16 simply too burdensome to consider every single

17 possible combination of pump, motor, VSD. 

18 And, really, it's just what you're talking

19 about is you're talking about pump plus motor

20 or pump plus motor plus VFD, and the only

21 difference that you're doing in the

22 calculation is, does this thing have a VFD or
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1 not? 

2 And there is some standard way of

3 accounting for that variable load part of it. 

4 It's not a test and a different, you know,

5 exact rating for every single VFD that could

6 possibly be used. That's, you know, one

7 possible way of simplifying this, to get that

8 VFD versus no VFD, to recognize that part of

9 the energy savings. Does that make sense? In

10 a more simplified, less burdensome way.

11 MS. PETRILLO GROH: Maybe as we

12 keep discussing the test procedure it will

13 become more clear.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

15 Charlie, and then Louis, and then

16 Steve. Thanks for being patient. 

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

18 Cappellino, ITT. So the question I guess

19 before was what kind of behavior you're trying

20 to drive. And I think you said that giving

21 the consumer or the customer more information

22 to make a good energy decision was one of the
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1 objectives.

2 So is what you're proposing really

3 potentially more of a labeling scheme? In

4 other words, if I have Choice A, which is

5 fixed speed pump, and Choice B, which is

6 variable speed driven pump, and now I have an

7 energy index or something where I can compare

8 A and B, all I'm doing is providing better

9 information for the person to make a

10 purchasing decision, or are you trying to

11 regulate the actual levels of those

12 combinations? Because to me those are two

13 different things.

14 To me, the analogy would be, like

15 they did with automotive products, you know,

16 they had the label "miles per gallon," and

17 that made the customer able to make a good

18 energy choice, right, that's one step that you

19 can take, and you could regulate that, saying,

20 "Hey, you've got to provide enough information

21 for an informed decision to be made."

22 The second piece of that could be
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1 setting different levels for those choices. 

2 And I'm trying to understand what your goal is

3 in that context, because it's not clear to me.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

5 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, I think,

6 you know, at the end of the day we still want

7 to be able to set an efficiency standard for

8 pumps, generally. So we still want to be able

9 to compel the overall pump market to get more

10 efficient. We still want to be able to

11 recognize the efficiency difference between

12 any given two pumps in the same class. And so

13 that element should still be there.

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Bare pump?

15 MR. ADIN: Ultimately, where

16 you're talking about is a difference in bare

17 pump efficiency, because if you're assuming a

18 value for the motor, and then for the VFD

19 versus pump motor combination, you are just

20 adding some kind of factoring element. Then,

21 yes, at the end of the day, you're still back

22 to just differences in bare pump efficiency.
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1 So you're still comparing pumps

2 within the same configuration, and you can see

3 efficiency differences, which ultimately comes

4 back to bare pump efficiency, that difference,

5 again, if the other values are assumed.

6 The VFD component recognizes the

7 energy savings part of the VFD system versus

8 not. So does that provide a little bit more

9 clarification?

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie. 

11 So the VFD part, again, is really more I

12 look at that as more of providing information

13 to the customer to make a decision. 

14 MR. ADIN: Ultimately, yes,

15 because we are not trying to make the VFD more

16 efficient.

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right.

18 MR. ADIN: Right.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

20 MR. STARR: So I can probably help

21 out, Charles, how that all works. Once they

22 set a federal standard, then you can start 
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1 have other standards that will go off at 

2 like EnergyStar, you can have utility rebate

3 programs that encourage the use of VFDs, and

4 so there is a whole bunch of other things that

5 once they have a standard it can be a

6 springboard. It basically provides the floor,

7 and then you can set standards a little bit

8 higher and maybe at the table, that you get a

9 certain amount of money. So that's a little

10 bit of how the mechanism it's probably what

11 their intention is.

12 As far as what I want to talk

13 about a little bit is the idea of the VFD. 

14 And it doesn't really need to be the VFD; it

15 can be a variable speed drive. And so it

16 would be my the flow times the head times 

17 divided by 3916, the efficiency of the pump,

18 gets you the power use. You never actually

19 have to measure current to determine what the

20 energy usage is.

21 So, in theory, if they knew what

22 the system curve is that they are testing this
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1 against, it could all be done by calculation,

2 and actually zero testing done.

3 I don't know how practical that is

4 in the world real world of pumps, but in

5 theory I think that's what they're trying to

6 get at. And so I don't know if that is

7 realistic or not, but if it was that's what

8 they are trying to get at.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, I dropped

10 Mark out of the queue. Yes.

11 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. 

12 You've heard the comments from Charlie,

13 really, but, I mean, just clarifying this 

14 that the DOE would have to give us a nominal

15 efficiency for the drive that we would use

16 because it's a non regulated product. And all

17 AHRI has is a testing standard right now that

18 all the manufacturers are going to be

19 complying with. That was the main points I

20 was going to be making, so I think I mean,

21 the accuracy of that but if they are

22 telling it to us, Al, then it's set and we're
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1 all using the same number. 

2 But I agree, how accurate is it? 

3 Does it truly reflect energy efficiency, or

4 it's pretty wide open?

5 MR. POWERS: I think also to help,

6 too, I think, Lucas, eventually in time, I

7 believe, right now we have certain motors that

8 are under the DOE, like submersible deep

9 well submersible motors are not, I don't

10 believe, and circulators probably not, and

11 there may be others, so we just have to look

12 at how we want to do that, because what will

13 happen we do have a standard and we don't

14 have it for the others, but it would be good

15 to look at it.

16 But, remember, motors that are

17 fluid filled motors, right, that several of us

18 make and all, whether it's oil, coal, or

19 water, can vary that, right? But what's

20 interesting here is also, going back to what

21 Charlie is what we're trying to drive,

22 right? And I'm not you know, I'm more
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1 inclined to say, you know, are we really going

2 to change the buying process of customers with

3 this in some cases, you know?

4 MR. ADIN: Are you asking about in

5 the VFD versus 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Just to clarify,

7 that was Chuck that was just speaking. Now

8 Lucas Adin.

9 MR. ADIN: Thanks, Doug. Sorry

10 about that.

11 MR. POWERS: What I mean is on 

12 when we do a study, Lucas, to look at a

13 particular product, right, the first thing we

14 do is we whatever version you have today,

15 the customer, whatever, you go out and you

16 work with them and you talk to them, like

17 we'll go to Water and say, "Hey, for these

18 kind of pumps, what are your flows and heads?" 

19 Right?

20 So we sit there and we try to

21 analyze, so, okay, we're going to lay out a

22 line, this is what it needs to be. ANSI has
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1 things, API has things, et cetera. But in

2 these products here, the other thing that's

3 interesting here, the way I'm thinking is,

4 with all the manufacturers who are going to be

5 involved here, right, Charlie might have a

6 pump that's 101 gallons a minute at the

7 specified efficiency.

8 My BEP might be 95. You know,

9 they're not all right at the given point. So

10 I think the MEI calculation, what I read

11 through EFP, is all about the efficiency. And

12 you keep bringing up power, which is good, but

13 the way we measure it is the pump efficiency,

14 right? And it was brought up by other people,

15 too, so I right? I mean, that's we're

16 not worrying about exactly where we hit. It's

17 more of, what is our BEP for that given

18 product?

19 MS. WIDDER: Right. Which is

20 still so to the efficiency point and then 

21 Steve, I'm sorry, just really quick. To the

22 efficiency point, I think pumps are definitely 
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1 characteristics of pumps are communicated

2 today mostly based on efficiency. I mean,

3 flow and head and all of these other things,

4 too. But, I mean, when you see a pump curve,

5 there are efficiency curves on there, and it's

6 less common to see the power curve that's on

7 some pump curves.

8 But anyways 

9 MR. POWERS: I think everyone has

10 a power curve on it. We all have power 

11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. In addition,

12 and so 

13 MR. POWERS: If you didn't, you

14 wouldn't know what motor to use, so 

15 MS. WIDDER: Right. Great, great. 

16 So then so they all have power curves, and

17 so what we're talking about here efficiency

18 is still a metric. I don't want to use the

19 word "metric." It's still a characteristic

20 that can be used in your discussions with your

21 customers to help select a pump.

22 Before our discussions here about
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1 regulating pumps, and measuring them to

2 compare to a standard, we are just worried

3 about the power curve. We are not worried

4 about the efficiency at the points. 

5 And then the other thing I wanted

6 to say just in general, based on a couple of

7 comments that were made, is this is just sort

8 of some stuff we have been thinking about. 

9 None of this is set in stone. Everyone here

10 has a say. If you have a better idea that's

11 completely different from this, we would love

12 to hear it.

13 So we are just trying to talk

14 about some things we have been thinking about,

15 trying to balance, again, the goal of saving

16 energy and conserving utility and accounting

17 for the benefits of control. But, you know,

18 this doesn't mean this is not going to

19 happen necessarily. That's up to you people

20 in this room.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: This is a possible

22 construct.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Right. So if you

2 have suggestions, those are especially helpful

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock

4 has been very patient. Thank you, Steve.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Sure. Steve

6 Rosenstock, EEI. I'm going to try to step

7 back a little 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me know 

9 pardon me. We are due for a break here pretty

10 quickly. Steve, go ahead.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I just want to

12 take a step back, just being the codes and

13 standards geek that I am, just to give a blank

14 page and to give people an idea of, you know,

15 with other products, here is what and I

16 think one of the best analogies is when ASHRAE

17 does new standards for centrifugal chillers,

18 big air conditioning units.

19 What ASHRAE has done now,

20 different products have different some

21 products are just full load, EER, et cetera,

22 COP at full load. Other products are SEER or
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1 an AFUE. They're like a seasonal or an

2 annualized value for the product.

3 For chillers what they've done is

4 the manufacturer has to meet a full load, kWs

5 per ton, and a part load, IPLV. They had to

6 meet both for different let's say a 200 ton

7 chiller has to meet so many kWs per ton at

8 full load, so many kW per ton at the IPLV

9 metrics, at different weighted loads.

10 The manufacturer decides how they

11 are going to do it different refrigerant,

12 multiple compressors, better compressors,

13 variable speed drives, what have you, better 

14 any type of controls. It's the

15 manufacturer's decision, but the metric has

16 been designed such that it is really up to the

17 manufacturer how to meet that metric, and they

18 can choose multiple technologies.

19 So I know everyone 

20 unfortunately, we just talk about variable

21 frequency drives because they're such a good

22 application, but I'm trying to think out of
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1 the box a little bit to say higher level is

2 ideally we have to decide do we want a full

3 load or a multiple load metric. That's one

4 decision to make. And then the idea is,

5 should the goal be to design a metric such

6 that variable technologies can be used and

7 you're not just focused on, well, what if we

8 just use a VFD at 50 percent load, and what

9 happens if it you know, try to design it

10 such that it I'll say it's technology and

11 control neutral, where we can.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Avoid some of the

14 mess about, oh, variable speed drives don't

15 have a federal standard, show how are we going

16 to do it? If there's a way to do it, like

17 they've done with chillers and other products,

18 it's like the manufacturer decides what

19 product or technology they are going to use to

20 meet that level of efficiency.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

22 MR. POWERS: I agree with Steve. 
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1 I have no problem with what he's saying. 

2 We're not the chiller; we're just that little

3 compressor down in the chiller moving the

4 fluid. So if it was the house and we were

5 building a house, I get it. But we're you

6 know what I'm saying? 

7 So I like the idea of the overall. 

8 I think it's good to have an extension of

9 thinking of, what else connects to this that

10 can help the situation? I'm more worried

11 about the impact on how we are going to get

12 this across to buyers and to people, so that,

13 you know, we do not impact jobs.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Let's take

15 a break. It's now 10:45 almost, and let's

16 break until 11:00. And when we return from

17 break, we're probably going to work until,

18 say, 12:30, or something like that, before we

19 go to lunch. Okay? So if you need to get a

20 quick snack or something, please do so. 

21 But I thought this last discussion

22 was very illuminating, and we can go return
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1 to it as we need to when we return from the

2 break. See you back here at 11:00.

3 (Whereupon, the proceedings in the foregoing

4 matter went off the record at 10:45 a.m. and

5 went back on the record at 11:05 a.m.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, where I'd like

7 to go next with this, I thought that

8 presentation - I didn't follow all of it, but

9 I thought it was quite concrete. I thought

10 there was a lot of good information that came

11 out of that.

12 Could I ask you to turn to Slide

13 20 in your packet, please? I just want to

14 point to this slide one more time, because

15 this is where they started, that the objective

16 of the metric is to be objectively measurable,

17 allow for a comparability across models, focus

18 on energy use or efficiency of the equipment

19 being measured, limit test burden, that is, it

20 should be kind of practical and doable, and

21 inform purchasing decisions.

22 I just want to - so, the question
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1 looking ahead is I think we - I think we've

2 had enough of that for now. But looking

3 ahead, would you suggest some additional

4 things that DOE should be doing, that HI

5 should be doing, some additional discussion

6 between now and when we meet next?

7 Steve has been having to wait a

8 long time. So, he's going to go first.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, just again

10 to follow up, full load or part load or both

11 as a high level thought.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Full load, part load

13 or both, okay. 

14 Chuck, please.

15 MR. POWERS: Chuck at Flowserve.

16 I think it might - it's always

17 good to have a benchmark, you know. The more

18 we talk here, the more you learn on what ERP

19 and others did.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, you've got to

21 get that a little closer to you.

22 MR. POWERS: Yeah, sorry.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

2 MR. POWERS: So, I'd just like to,

3 you know, is there a way we could benchmark

4 what ERP is doing and how different is that

5 going to be for what we're doing?

6 MR. HUBER: I'm not sure if I

7 understand the question.

8 MR. POWERS: I mean the European -

9 EU, sorry.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: EU stuff. If you

11 can benchmark what the EU has done with their

12 MEI?

13 MR. POWERS: Right.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. So, I'm

15 hoping right now that - this is exactly what

16 I was hoping would happen.

17 Mark, do you have additional

18 thoughts?

19 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, Mark Handzel

20 from Xylem.

21 I just was saying that I think the

22 manufacturers need to caucus further -
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

2 MR. HANDZEL: - and look at this

3 recommendation as well as the EEI/MEI approach

4 that we were taking before -

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

6 MR. HANDZEL: - and knowing that

7 now we can only have one approach, how can we

8 possibly combine it? Because obviously

9 everything we talked about says we have to

10 have MEI-type measurement.

11 So, I think we need to do some

12 more discussion.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Good. And,

14 Greg, you just joined us. What we were just

15 saying, looking ahead, looking to our next

16 meeting, basically I think we've had enough of

17 this for today, and are there other research

18 items, different construct approaches that you

19 would point to the consultant team to look at

20 or are there additional thoughts you have to

21 prepare us for the next time we have this

22 discussion?
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1 Chuck.

2 MR. POWERS: The - I forget the

3 name. I'm sorry. She came up to - Laura.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Laura.

5 MR. POWERS: She brought up about

6 the -

7 MR. BROOKMAN: The AHRI test

8 procedure.

9 MR. POWERS: Variable speed and all

10 -

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

12 MR. POWERS: Would it be good for

13 DOE to go talk to some of those guys to get

14 some views in what they've been dealing with?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Great.

16 Yes, Albert.

17 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

18 You know, I agree with Charles. I

19 think the DOE needs to go and see if there is

20 any published data from various VFD

21 manufacturers at these loads that they're

22 proposing so that we can be reasonably -
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, there's

2 basically no part load VFD data right now. 

3 So, we're hoping that AHRI 1210 data comes out

4 soon.

5 MR. HUBER: At this point, though,

6 and I want to make this clear, if you do not

7 have that data, you either have to test it, a

8 manufacturer has to test it, or else you don't

9 put this regulation in.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: So, we will also be

11 doing testing of product. So, it's something

12 we can get to later. But if we can test it

13 and do some sort of allowance, then you don't

14 necessarily have to test it.

15 So, we don't need to necessarily

16 go into that now, but we'll look into that and

17 discuss what the opportunities are.

18 MR. HUBER: We would have to be

19 very comfortable with your testing.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. Sure.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I see Laura again at

22 the microphone.
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1 Laura.

2 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Yes, as I

3 mentioned before, the - Laura Petrillo, AHRI.

4 The certification program, the

5 AHRI certification program for VFDs is

6 relatively new. And there is no available

7 data through the AHRI database, because

8 manufacturers who join the certification

9 program are required to certify all the

10 products within the scope of the certification

11 program that are sold within the U.S. and

12 Canada. So, that could be quite a bit of data

13 to collect.

14 That doesn't mean that there

15 aren't, you know, products that have rated in

16 accordance with the standard. So, they may

17 not be certified data, but it could be rated

18 data.

19 I'm happy to go back and find out

20 where the manufacturers are in this process

21 and get in touch with Lucas or Alison as

22 necessary.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: That would be great. 

2 Thank you.

3 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Sure.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks. Yes,

5 Greg.

6 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

7 Grundfos.

8 I'd like to make just a - maybe

9 they already know this, but the consultants

10 that as they get the surveys in with some of

11 the data from the different model sizes, I

12 think one of the surveys ask for 25 percent

13 load - 25 percent BEP, 50, 75 and full load

14 and 110, to take a look at similar sizes and

15 see how this works, this theory works, and if

16 it does get the index and the metric that

17 you're looking for. So, I think that there is

18 probably still some question whether that will

19 work properly without that denominator in

20 there.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, just to

22 follow up, we did do some of that with the
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1 data we have now, which isn't that good. 

2 Which is why we asked for some additional

3 data.

4 It does seem to work so far, but

5 we will definitely follow up with the better

6 data that we get.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, that was

8 Alison speaking just then. Do we have some -

9 Lucas Adin.

10 MR. ADIN: Sure, unless there was

11 anyone else here who had a specific request

12 from DOE, but I think when we - we've heard

13 some things that we can do in the interim

14 before the next meeting that might help inform

15 this discussion a little bit.

16 And so, what I'm proposing at

17 least for DOE's part, is that we'll try and

18 put together a more specific proposal as it

19 pertains to testing and metric than what we've

20 shown today.

21 I think what we've shown today was

22 intended to stimulate discussion, at least
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1 give people an idea about one potential

2 framework for approaching this item.

3 Obviously, it's given the folks in

4 this room something to think about. It's a

5 very complicated issue, but we'll come back in

6 March with more specifics about how we

7 envision this potentially being done taking

8 into account some of the things we have talked

9 about that and then we'll have some more

10 substantive things to deliberate about.

11 And, you know, if it comes down to

12 just fundamentally much more complex technical

13 issues that would be more appropriately dealt

14 with outside of this room by a more focused

15 committee, maybe that's something that we can

16 evaluate at that time.

17 But anyway, so the general idea is

18 we'll come back to it in March. We'll have a

19 more specific set of things to talk about and

20 we'll see where we are at that point.

21 And so, unless anyone else had any

22 concerns they wanted to raise on this issue,
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1 my thought was that we'd go back to the scope

2 discussion and see what we can do in making

3 progress towards trying to finalize that list

4 before the end of today.

5 MR. POWERS: With that being said,

6 Lucas, so, will we keep going? I guess. I

7 don't know. The question I had, I got a whole

8 bunch of feedback from people yesterday and

9 last night with actually different companies,

10 as well as our own.

11 On Slide Six, Alison, if you could

12 go to Slide Six for me?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: You anticipated - I

15 was thinking it made sense for us before lunch

16 to return to these slides.

17 MR. POWERS: Right.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: To start with maybe

19 Five or Six, and then consider Three and Four. 

20 So, that's where we're at.

21 MR. POWERS: That's where I'm

22 going.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

2 MR. POWERS: Okay.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: We're in line.

4 MR. POWERS: My comment is we call

5 it the MNNs. And what the MNN are is the

6 marine, Navy and Nuclear. I'd like to put

7 that on the exclusion, because I believe that,

8 you know, they won't, you know, they don't add

9 any value in case somebody - because there's

10 water pumping applications there.

11 We talked about it as a team last

12 night and, you know, maybe we want to put

13 those on that list also.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it a separate and

15 distinct - that's a usage category. Is it a

16 separate and distinct class of pumps?

17 MR. POWERS: Well, I mean, if you

18 sit there and list API 610, right, and you

19 list - and we jumped around. Then you go to

20 self-priming pumps. So, you've kind of got

21 both.

22 I'm saying should we list the
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1 marine/Navy, or we have separate lines, and

2 nuclear, because, you know, my guess is that

3 may not apply here.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I see.

5 Greg.

6 MR. TOWSLEY: This is more for you,

7 Chuck. Can we just say N-stamped pumps?

8 MR. POWERS: No, because marine

9 aren't N-stamped.

10 MR. TOWSLEY: That's true, but -

11 MR. POWERS: And Navy isn't

12 N-stamped.

13 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify -

14 MR. POWERS: Not nuclear Navy.

15 MR. ADIN: - you're talking about

16 like pumps for a shipboard application and

17 pumps used in nuclear plants.

18 MR. POWERS: Right, and barges and

19 stuff like that and marine-related.

20 MR. ADIN: Okay.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I guess the energy

22 efficiency advocates would want to hear why
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1 they shouldn't be covered.

2 MR. POWERS: Okay. Well, one, if

3 it's on a ship, right, it's the power of the

4 ship.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, but it still

6 could be a commercial or industrial

7 application.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's a defense

9 application. It's still using energy. It is

10 still using energy from the ship, not from the

11 land, you know. It's diesel.

12 MR. POWERS: Yeah, Al suggested how

13 they're built. They're completely regulated

14 entirely different.

15 I mean, if you take a - I'll just

16 start with the nuclear, right? The pump

17 itself could basically be very similar, right?

18 There's certain things will be

19 done different like materials. You're going

20 to go to a whole level different side of

21 materials.

22 And then the product itself goes
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1 into all types of designs from, you know,

2 seismic to you name it, right, that will

3 change it physically also and whatever.

4 And I don't think - I'm just

5 speculating that they're pumping water, right? 

6 Stuff like that, but the volume of it is much

7 less, you know.

8 The quantity is anywhere close to

9 I think what, you know, if you look at that

10 one sheet in five, 600,000, whatever they

11 were, we're not talking about that.

12 And I just don't want, you know,

13 companies who are trying to do the right thing

14 for the nuclear industry or the Navy, you

15 know. There's guidelines these guys have and

16 the Navy's big deal is noise. That's the big

17 thing there, right, more than anything.

18 And then nuclear is another

19 ballgame, and then the marine is another. So,

20 just - I'm just, you know, serving it up.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Great. So,

22 let's add it as a possible - we'll make a
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1 placeholder for it.

2 I guess my comment goes to

3 suggesting that the energy efficiency

4 advocates who I've worked with for ten, 15

5 years, they would want to have aside from the

6 notion that it's the utility of it perhaps is

7 different, they want to know, I think, what

8 the quantity of potential savings that they're

9 passing up is, stuff like that.

10 Meg.

11 MS. WALTNER: Right. I would also

12 add that I have some concerns with exempting

13 things based on application that are then

14 something that's descriptive of the pump

15 itself for reasons we've already discussed

16 yesterday.

17 So, to the extent you can explain

18 how these specific pumps are different and

19 could be distinguished from other product

20 categories that are covered, that would be

21 useful from my perspective.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Do you wish
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1 to follow on, Chuck?

2 MR. POWERS: No.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Al.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, please.

6 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

7 I think HI will carry this back

8 and we will see if we can, you know, we'll see

9 what the differences is in those markets.

10 I do know that an N-stamp pump

11 will never be used in normal commercial. 

12 They're just too expensive.

13 And probably the Navy would be the

14 same thing. I mean, it's just not -

15 hydraulically it may be the same, but

16 materials are totally different.

17 Navy will be super duplex or

18 aluminum bronze or something like that, but

19 for seawater service.

20 It's going to be - you just

21 wouldn't use it in normal applications anyway,

22 but we'll go back and we'll set up those
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1 parameters for you and bring them back to the

2 next meeting.

3 How about that?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: That's great.

5 Lucas Adin.

6 MR. ADIN: I don't think I had

7 anything to add to that. Thank you for

8 clarifying that.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

10 Greg.

11 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

12 Grundfos.

13 I think to - something that popped

14 up in the mind to kind of address what Meg

15 asked for, too, something that's not on the

16 list and maybe should make sure got on the

17 list for clarification is food grade pumps,

18 sanitary pumps, centrifugal pumps that are

19 specifically designed to meet, I guess you

20 would say, safety requirements for products

21 for food consumption or for consumption.

22 So, are products made to 3-A and
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1 FDA and dairy requirements as well, too, that

2 have specific design requirements to prevent

3 bacteria growth?

4 They don't necessarily make them

5 very efficient, but they have to have them

6 that way.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you expand that

8 to full screen so that the font is bigger?

9 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna.

10 Greg, but you're talking about

11 pumps that would be considered clean water

12 pumps, but -

13 MR. TOWSLEY: It's possible that

14 they could be used to pump clean water in a

15 food plant or beverage plant or something like

16 that, but their specific design - design

17 things with them that make them unique.

18 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna again.

19 And are those design

20 considerations, does that also mean that those

21 pumps are significantly more expensive than

22 comparable clean water pumps?
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1 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley with

2 Grundfos.

3 Yes, just in that they're

4 typically minimum 304 stainless steel, if not

5 316, where some of the water pumps may be just

6 iron or bronze, machined rather than cast. 

7 So, there are a lot of specifics with those

8 that they are more expensive, yes.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Al.

10 MR. HUBER: HI will carry that also

11 back and try to come to the next meeting with

12 some specifics.

13 Sometimes it's difficult for - we

14 know that there are differences. But as we

15 sit here, we may not be able to come up with

16 them. So, we'll bring that back also.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

18 Louis.

19 MR. STARR: And I think someone is

20 working on the clean water definition; is that

21 right?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I think Greg
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1 was going to look for that.

2 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.

3 I told Lucas this morning there is

4 a definition that was done by Europump. We

5 would accept that definition for inclusion

6 into this.

7 It just defines - it's a good

8 definition of what clean water is. So, we

9 don't have any problem with that.

10 Yeah, well, it's in the framework

11 document.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Do you want us to get

13 it out and email it to you so we can have it

14 a little bit later or -

15 MR. ADIN: Well, is that something

16 that we need for today for determining - is

17 that kind of a critical, I mean, I'm happy to

18 find it and put it up there if we feel like

19 that's something that we need in order to make

20 a decision on any of this today.

21 It sounds like there are a few

22 additional items that we still may need to
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1 resolve before we can make an all-conclusive

2 decision on scope, but -

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, I'm going to

4 suggest a pathway for us to continue the

5 discussion on scope and it might be useful.

6 I'd like for us - since we had a

7 considerable amount of discussion on Three,

8 Four, possible definition of covered product,

9 Four re-characterizes general description of

10 pump components, and then Five where the

11 green, yellow and red scope discussion was,

12 and then following after that in Six and

13 Seven, exclusions of parameters, to revisit

14 that and see how far we can get with them. 

15 Because I think there may be a way that we can

16 get close and create sort of a representation

17 or kind of an operating chunk for scope and

18 exclude some of these things, perhaps.

19 So, the clean water definition I

20 think would be useful to have if we could find

21 it.

22 MS. WIDDER: I'm looking it up.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: I have it on my

2 computer.

3 MS. WIDDER: Oh, do you have it? I

4 think I have it, too.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, here's

6 what I'd like to float: We started off on

7 Slide Three talking about a possible

8 definition of covered product.

9 And then a few individuals in the

10 room said, well, doesn't it make more sense

11 for us to talk about scope first and then

12 return to definitions of covered products? 

13 So, in sequence, we went to the chart, the

14 green, yellow, red chart.

15 Yesterday, or maybe it was in even

16 the first meeting, Tom Eckman said, consistent

17 with the way DOE does its rulemakings and

18 considers what products are covered and what

19 are not, he'd like to suggest that the, as he

20 said, everything is guilty until found

21 innocent.

22 That is, all products, all pumps
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1 for our purposes here start off being

2 considered possible, and then we use our

3 consensus rule, our consensus decision rule to

4 make decisions about what's excluded.

5 I would like to just float that as

6 a logic to see if you're comfortable with

7 that, because that gets us out of the problem

8 of defining the scope.

9 I think it's useful to define a

10 scope so we have some sense about the duration

11 of the negotiation and also so we have a sense

12 about what the scope of the test procedure

13 would be, stuff like that.

14 Hang on. So, and I think if we

15 were to adopt that as our fundamental logic,

16 that is, we start off on Slide Five, for

17 example, with all of these potentially in

18 scope as we can make - have decisions about

19 what gets excluded, because I think we got

20 very close to agreeing yesterday that

21 virtually all these items in red should be or

22 could be excluded. That was my sense of it
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1 yesterday.

2 And I have consulted with a few

3 members of different caucuses and they thought

4 that was possible.

5 Steve Rosenstock.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug, this is

7 Steve Rosenstock.

8 Yeah, I don't mind that approach. 

9 I just wanted to put out there are there any

10 major, I'll say, pump types or categories that

11 aren't on the list right now that would need

12 to be added? And I didn't know how many there

13 would be.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good

15 question, and I don't know the answer to that

16 question. I thought we - basically, this was

17 the bulk of the waterfront.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. So, your

19 question is, is this comprehensive or -

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK. Steve Rosenstock,

21 EEI.

22 I just was wondering is there,
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1 I'll say, one or two or three major types or

2 categories like he was discussing, the marine

3 and Navy and nuclear, are there other, I'll

4 say, big types or big categories that should

5 be on the guilty-as-charged list that should

6 be as part of this discussion?

7 That's all I wanted to -

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Other pump types to

10 exclude or -

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Other pump types,

12 period.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Other pump types

14 to discuss.

15 MS. WILLIAM: Okay.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: We don't know.

17 So, here's the benefit of doing it

18 this way. If, for example, when HI comes back

19 at our next meeting or maybe, if we're lucky,

20 prior to our next meeting and talks about

21 marine, Navy, nuclear and talks about clean

22 water food applications, then we could - they
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1 would - presumably they'd be included in the

2 guilty-until-proven-innocent category.

3 That is, they'd be included in

4 scope, and then we could as a decision-making

5 body could say, okay, we've voted and we have

6 a consensus. Let's exclude them.

7 Yes, Chuck.

8 MR. POWERS: Yeah, the only other

9 thing that we've got to be careful of, I know

10 we're under this because of the government for

11 the right reasons, you're not going to be able

12 to get any information on some of the Navy

13 units and some of the nuclear stuff.

14 That's another reason they're

15 excluded, because it is very limited, you

16 know. I agree on the power thing, but it is

17 a nuclear sub that's got certain conditions

18 they run under. And they don't go over and

19 plug into the local utility when they get back

20 to base.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: We can get Lucas to

22 go to his former employer.
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1 MR. ADIN: Yeah, no, I certainly

2 don't have any, I mean, I've spent a fair

3 amount of time evaluating the quietness and -

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Understood.

5 MR. POWERS: I was in that for

6 almost 15 years and it's - that million-dollar

7 pump is not going to be sold in the water

8 industry.

9 MR. ADIN: Yeah, your point is well

10 taken. They are custom designed. Very custom

11 designed.

12 MR. POWERS: Yes. And same with

13 some of the marine, and same with the nuclear.

14 MR. ADIN: Right.

15 MR. POWERS: That's my speculation

16 and I just think -

17 MR. ADIN: So, in principle, I

18 don't think we have any objection to what

19 we're talking about here.

20 I think the question is more about

21 how do we establish that carve-out in a way

22 that doesn't unintentionally exclude pumps
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1 that otherwise should be included. That's

2 all. It's really about how we design it. 

3 It's not necessarily the principle.

4 MR. POWERS: Yeah, right. And all

5 my comment is, is, you know, from some of our

6 constituents and some of the feedback I got is

7 if you had firewater in there, it's out,

8 right?

9 I mean, it's just trying to follow

10 some of the similar principles.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So, you raising the

12 issue of marine, Navy and nuclear, I think, is

13 a good illustration of how this logic that I'm

14 proposing would work or could work.

15 So, what do you think? Do the

16 members here present, the negotiators, do you

17 think that's a sensible way to proceed?

18 Because I think if you do, then we

19 can begin to talk about whether all these

20 items in red, whether we could exclude them. 

21 And then we would be narrowing the scope in a

22 productive way, and then we can start talking
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1 about the items in yellow and the items in

2 green. Both of them.

3 Steve Rosenstock.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's fine with

5 me. We just need up on the screen the latest

6 and greatest, that's all.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, we'll get it

8 up there.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's not up there

10 right now.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Does anybody object

12 to that as kind of our fundamental premise? 

13 Do I need to take a vote on this? I probably

14 do.

15 We have a quorum present. We have

16 16 members our of 17 present. So, should I

17 restate what we're voting on here?

18 Once again, two votes - three

19 votes derails a consensus, stops consensus. 

20 What we're confirming is that for the purposes

21 of this working group, discussions of scope

22 will be considered that everything is in scope
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1 until this group by their decision-making

2 rules by consensus decides to exclude them.

3 That gives us time and space, for

4 example, to continue considering circulators

5 and every other item on this list.

6 Okay. I'm about to propose the

7 question. Are we ready to do this? All those

8 in - yes, Chuck.

9 MR. POWERS: Everything on there is

10 -

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Everything on that

12 list.

13 MR. POWERS: It's in.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Is in, yes. And

15 then that allows us to include new items that

16 come up that presumably will be in, and then

17 they will get the full consideration of the

18 working group, okay?

19 MR. POWERS: With the basis we're

20 going to have something done by December.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: We're going to have

22 something done by September.
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1 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify, Doug, I

2 think what you mean is the starting point is

3 that they're in and we have to vote to exclude

4 them.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: That's exactly what

6 I mean.

7 MR. ADIN: So -

8 MR. BROOKMAN: The starting point

9 is that they're in.

10 MR. ADIN: Right.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: And if anything

12 that's not in now could if we uncover

13 something that should be in, it can be - we

14 presume it would be in, okay?

15 So, all those in favor of that

16 logic that everything is in until we vote to

17 exclude it, raise your hands.

18 (Voting.)

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We have

20 unanimity surrounding that proposal. 

21 Congratulations. You've done it again.

22 (Applause.)
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Now, yesterday we

2 had a detailed discussion on these items in

3 red. These items that were thought to be

4 potentially excluded. And I thought basically

5 the thrust of it was that - I don't think as

6 we went through them one by one, that any of

7 them - I thought basically they all were

8 endorsed for exclusion. That's my

9 recollection. I see a few heads nodding yes.

10 Steve.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: With everything

12 that says, okay - whoops. Just lost it. 

13 Okay.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry. Okay. 

15 I'll do this later.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The six that say

17 "okay," correct?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, and this one

19 you can't read it. It says, no. It says,

20 non-clean water pumps and - did we just do

21 that? Could we put "clean water" up in the -

22 MS. WILLIAMS: We put clean water
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1 in the parameter slide.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: In the parameter

3 slide. That's why it's eliminated there.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's lined out.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, this one, yeah. 

6 I didn't delete the row.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, what I'm going

8 to propose now having discussed this rather

9 thoroughly - and let me say this: If we

10 exclude individual pumps, then presumably if

11 you collectively as a group say that - think

12 that was a mistake, then you could reinsert

13 them, right?

14 The same decision-making mechanism

15 could be used. A consensus vote could say,

16 well, we made a mistake with axial mixed flow. 

17 Let's put them back in, okay?

18 So, I'm about to propose that this

19 list that we consider excluding these items

20 and knowing the scope of endeavor here in the

21 second meeting noting that both the items in

22 green and the items in yellow are there for
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1 further consideration.

2 Meg.

3 MS. WALTNER: Yes. So, I think we

4 had a thorough discussion of this yesterday,

5 but I just wanted to put the caveat on this

6 that some of these still need further

7 definition.

8 In particular, we had a discussion

9 yesterday on fire pumps and how we're going to

10 define those in the exemption, and also the

11 wastewater, sump, slurry and solids handling

12 pumps, how specifically do we define those.

13 So, I agree in terms of categories

14 of what we want to exclude, but just that some

15 further work needs to be done clarifying and

16 -

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And how we would

18 achieve that. Would we rely on HI to come

19 forward with those definitions?

20 Mark.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem.

22 I think that sort of takes us back
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1 to the clean water definition than if -

2 because that would - right? That would define

3 like wastewater and slurry pumps. Solids

4 handling pumps would not be in the scope.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. Okay. And

6 the other thing that occurred to me, and I had

7 this conversation with a few individuals at

8 the break, I'm really getting the sense and

9 logic about observing the HI nomenclature and

10 trying to do that everywhere possible.

11 Is there an HI nomenclature for

12 these items in the exclusion list? Five. We

13 keep bouncing back and forth. Sorry.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I have the

15 exclusion list up. So, sort of -

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, that right

17 there. The items, do those in red - the first

18 one seems to have an HI nomenclature or

19 designation.

20 How about the others? Do they, or

21 are they just not listed?

22 MS. WILLIAMS: There will be a lot
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1 of them, right?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: There is, yeah.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

4 MR. POWERS: Each one of these

5 would have multiple.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, all I'm going to

7 suggest is that, and then I'll go to you next,

8 Charlie, that if we applied these exclusions

9 and follow Meg's idea to make sure that

10 they're defined sufficiently, we'll look at

11 clean water next, perhaps, that we make sure

12 that those HI designations are there listed in

13 this table or someplace.

14 I saw Charlie next.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

16 Cappellino.

17 I think the HI designation will be

18 helpful, but many of the ones that are in red

19 there, the HI designation is the same as the

20 ones that are in yellow, for example.

21 So, I don't think that's going to

22 be sufficient in of its own to define, just so
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1 everybody is clear.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. Okay. 

3 Louis.

4 MR. STARR: So, just to follow up

5 with what Meg was going - so, the slurry pumps

6 was one, but the actually more important ones

7 are the fire pumps.

8 And so, there's a discussion

9 around the certification NFPA to see that that

10 would adequately - those requirements do meet

11 that NFPA 20, and then the certification. So,

12 just to prevent definitions of fire pumps.

13 And so, that's two things, DOE and

14 I would say HI, to look at that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, and I wasn't

16 sure about the sequence here, but presumably

17 the exclusions list - is that it?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, that is the

19 exclusions list. I have it up because there's

20 notes about what still needs to be done on

21 them.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Presumably the
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1 exclusions list amplifies and informs these

2 items in red, right?

3 Okay. Now, how should we do this? 

4 Are we ready to go one by one, or look at

5 these collectively and say we want to exclude

6 them pending additional definitions?

7 Joanna.

8 MS. MAUER: Joanna Maurer.

9 I'm just wondering if we could

10 maybe hold off on fire pumps. Again, you

11 know, we don't have any problem with the

12 concept, but, you know, I think this question

13 of whether a fire pump is actually certified

14 to the NFPA specification or not I think is a

15 pretty important issue.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Al.

17 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

18 I think I explained it pretty well

19 yesterday. And I'll explain it one more time,

20 and then you need to make a decision about how

21 you want to define it, okay, so that you feel

22 comfortable.
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1 All these pumps are manufactured

2 in accordance with NFPA 20. There are

3 certifications that are behind those; UL and

4 FM - UL or FM, or both. So, you can use any

5 of those to define a fire pump.

6 So, if you, you know, if you want

7 to put all that in there, fine. If you only

8 want to put NFPA 20, fine. Whatever you want

9 to put, that will define a fire pump.

10 I don't see any reason to continue

11 to belabor this issue.

12 MS. MAUER: So, this is Joanna.

13 So, I think what you explained to

14 us yesterday which was helpful, was that when

15 you certify a pump to the NFPA specification,

16 that that implies significant additional cost.

17 MR. HUBER: It absolutely does. 

18 It's very significant.

19 MS. MAUER: So, if to be considered

20 a fire pump you had to certify to NFPA, I

21 wouldn't have any concerns.

22 If we're instead defining fire
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1 pumps as just meeting the NFPA specification

2 and I think you said yesterday that in that

3 case it doesn't imply additional costs -

4 MR. HUBER: That is correct.

5 MS. MAUER: - then I think we're,

6 you know, what prevents someone from using a

7 fire pump in a non-fire pump application, I

8 think that's the question.

9 MR. HANDZEL: So, if we change it

10 to say NFPA certified fire pumps -

11 MR. HUBER: Then you're okay.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Then you're okay.

13 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna.

14 I think -

15 MR. HUBER: We're okay. Let's just

16 do that. That's what we've got to do is just

17 do that.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, the new

19 language, Al or Mark -

20 MR. HUBER: NFPA 20, in that just

21 say it is certified to NFPA 20 whether UL or

22 FM, because it could be one or the other or
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1 both.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. So,

3 that closes - that makes that clear. Okay. 

4 Then, are you comfortable with fire pumps

5 being excluded, yes?

6 Anybody else have questions on

7 fire pumps?

8 MR. ADIN: Just a question, Doug.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

10 MR. ADIN: Just one quick question. 

11 This is Lucas Adin, DOE.

12 Does it matter - do we have to

13 specify certifying bodies? I mean, it's just

14 certified to that standard, right?

15 MR. HUBER: You don't have to, but

16 those are the only two that do.

17 MR. ADIN: Yeah, but I just think

18 for, you know, it's the principle of it being

19 certified.

20 And I guess the other question I

21 had is whether there were certain physical

22 characteristics of a pump that have to be in
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1 place for it to meet that certification.

2 Could you just specify in the

3 definition a pump that has these things? So

4 -

5 MR. HUBER: We covered that

6 yesterday, Lucas.

7 MR. ADIN: Yes.

8 MR. HUBER: It is possible that a

9 pump could meet those conditions.

10 MR. ADIN: Right.

11 MR. HUBER: It's possible.

12 MR. ADIN: Okay. I was just

13 refreshing my memory.

14 MR. HUBER: So, the only way you

15 can lock it out is what they're saying here. 

16 It's got to be certified by the certifying

17 bodies.

18 MR. ADIN: And that certification

19 has a significant cost associated with it.

20 MR. HUBER: Oh, yes. Absolutely a

21 significant cost.

22 MR. ADIN: Okay. Thank you.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So, that exchange

2 was between Al and Lucas and that was complete

3 at that point.

4 I have another question from

5 Arnold Sdano. For pumps with a variable

6 number of stages, does the power limit of 200

7 horsepower apply to the per stage power?

8 Al Huber is shaking his head no. 

9 Do you want to elaborate on that, Al?

10 MR. HUBER: It's the overall power.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: The overall power.

12 MR. HUBER: So, if you've got one

13 stage or two - if you go one stage and let's

14 say you're at 150, you go two stages and

15 you're over 200, then according to the rule so

16 far according to the parameters we've set, it

17 would not be - it would not be subject to the

18 regulation.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay.

20 MR. HUBER: Is that not correct? I

21 mean, I don't want to misstate something here,

22 but I think that's to the parameters that we
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1 have.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't - in the EU,

4 there's the - they are tested based on a

5 certain number of stages.

6 Is that not the number of stages

7 that the power applies to?

8 MR. HUBER: No, but his question

9 was if it's more than one stage and it's going

10 over the 200 horsepower, then it is no longer

11 regulated.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me read it

13 again. For pumps with a variable number of

14 stages, does the power limit of 200 horsepower

15 apply to the per stage power?

16 MR. HUBER: No.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And Al Huber says no

18 again.

19 Greg.

20 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.

21 Our understanding is that that is

22 your input shaft horsepower to the pump. So,
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1 it will apply to all stages, not on a per

2 stage basis.

3 MR. HUBER: That is correct.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I see several

5 manufacturing industry reps shaking their

6 heads yes in agreement with that, okay.

7 MR. POWERS: Yeah, I think - this

8 is Chuck, you know, if you go back to the bare

9 pump thing, you know, what makes that up? 

10 You're getting a drive that will drive the

11 unit. If that unit is over 200, you know,

12 it's out of scope.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, this is

14 Alison. So, I want to clarify sort of a

15 technicality on that.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Before you do, the

17 last speaker was Chuck. Now, Alison.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: So, and we haven't

19 actually discussed this yet what number of

20 stages would be required to comply for

21 multistage pumps. But I would assume that if,

22 you know, it's three or nine stages depending
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1 on what it is that even if you're at a higher

2 number of stages that was excluded, the pump

3 itself would still have to meet the standard

4 based on the number of stages that was being

5 tested.

6 MR. HUBER: No.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

9 MR. HUBER: Well, it would be - the

10 pump would not be excluded if you tested it at

11 a single stage or whatever you test it to and

12 that's below shaft horsepower of 200. So, the

13 pump would be included in the regulation.

14 But we're not going to be testing

15 it to nine stages or any of the other stages. 

16 So, there's not going to be an MEI for those,

17 right? Is that correct?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.

19 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.

20 In the European standard, we

21 specified the number of stages that were to be

22 tested. And that was nine stages or whatever
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1 they said.

2 So, that pump as a nine-stage pump

3 was to be tested as a unit. You don't want to

4 have just one stage or - because there's

5 losses that -

6 MR. HUBER: Right. I understand

7 that.

8 (Speaking off mic.)

9 MR. CASE: Applies to -

10 MR. HUBER: So, if a nine-stage

11 pump is over 200 horsepower, it is not

12 included, correct?

13 MR. CASE: Correct.

14 MR. HUBER: Thank you.

15 MR. CASE: All right. But we do

16 specify the number of stages that it had to be

17 tested with.

18 MR. HUBER: Right.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I would like to

20 return to the red items which are the - is

21 this on? Yes. And I want to ask you - I'm

22 going to read through these, make sure that -
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1 see if anybody wants to have additional

2 discussion on any of these pump types

3 considering that in a moment I'm going to ask

4 if we can exclude them all, the first one is

5 axial mixed flow, the second is positive

6 displacement.

7 We've removed non-clean water

8 pumps. That's in a parameter slide. 

9 Wastewater, sump, slurry, solids handling

10 pumps, API 610 and ANSI chemical process

11 pumps, fire pumps, self-priming pumps.

12 We've included marine, Navy,

13 nuclear pumps, sanitary pumps on this list,

14 but I'm not sure what - we haven't discussed

15 those yet. So, we're not going to exclude

16 those yet.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: I have question

18 marks on them.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Great. Thank

20 you. Question marks. That's still to be

21 refined.

22 Pumps outside certain parameters
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1 or power flow head temperature, what is that?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: That's a parameter

3 discussion. So, I don't think you want to

4 include that in there.

5 MR . BROOKMAN: We had a request

6 from the legal team to cover a few things here

7 at the outset, so that's what we're going to

8 do next. Betsy Kohl.

9 MS. KOHL: Thank you. Betsy Kohl

10 from DOE GC. We just wanted to say a couple

11 of things about two of the legal issues that

12 have been percolating around. The first one

13 is the preemption issue. I'm looking at Gary,

14 but he's -- 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Let her do it,

16 Gary. You come over here to listen. She's

17 going to talk about preemption --

18 MS. KOHL: It's just two words,

19 and I figured you would want to hear it. But,

20 anyhow, it's become a complicated issue that's

21 going to require some additional discussion

22 with folks who are not in this room. But we
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1 recognize that, you know, we want to convey

2 something to this group before the next

3 meeting, so, recognizing that there are some

4 clients and privileged issues intended in the

5 discussions that will take place, we'll figure

6 out an appropriate way to convey what we

7 discussed before the next meeting. 

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is

9 Gary, California. Thank you. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: That will be posted

11 on SharePoint or something? 

12 MS. KOHL: I'm not sure, not sure. 

13 That's -- 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay. 

15 MS. KOHL: -- yet another issue to

16 figure out. The other legal issue that we've

17 been talking about is the manufacturer as

18 distributor issue, a distributor as

19 manufacturer issue. Sorry. The legal

20 framework we laid out for you yesterday,

21 right? The definition in EPCA of manufacture

22 includes assembly. And we have some
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1 information about the universe of your

2 distributors that are out there. We've talked

3 a little bit about it here. But recognizing

4 that the Department isn't really interested in

5 two guys with a screwdriver, as we call it, it

6 would be helpful for us to understand a little

7 bit more about your distributors and how they

8 operate. So is there a definitive number of

9 them out there? Are they just kind of passing

10 through what you give them, or are they

11 applying some sort of engineering expertise? 

12 Is it mass assembly, or are they mostly kind

13 of individualized systems that the

14 distributors are putting together? That kind

15 of information would allow us to determine who

16 constitutes a manufacturer under the

17 definition that's set forth in the statute.

18 And we're also interested in

19 hearing from all of you about the

20 ramifications of including or not including

21 distributors as manufacturers as far as

22 external programs are concerned, such as
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1 certification under Energy Star, that sort of

2 thing. 

3 So if there's information that you

4 guys want to share at an appropriate point

5 today or, you know, before the next meeting,

6 that would be helpful. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. Yes,

8 Greg?

9 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

10 Grundfos. I think that might have been a

11 question that was covered maybe during some of

12 the interviews this summer, so you may check

13 in with some of the information -- 

14 MS. KOHL: Yes, yes, we know we

15 have some of it. We just kind of are

16 interested in kind of hearing some input

17 today, but we definitely, we know our folks

18 have some of that information. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 

20 MR. POWERS: Yes, if you'd like, I

21 could share a little bit from our experience. 

22 The third-party channels we call it, right,
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1 are very broad. You can have a representative

2 that sits in an office that sells your

3 products, doesn't have a screwdriver, doesn't

4 have a shop, doesn't have nothing, but he

5 would sub-out to another guy down the street

6 that does service work or assembly, whatever. 

7 Their role is very small, but there's quite a

8 few of them.

9 Then there's the full-range guys

10 that are several hundred million dollar sizes. 

11 They have shops and warehouses and facilities

12 as good as any of the pump manufacturers, but

13 the unique discipline is some of them

14 specialize in a certain area, which means, for

15 them and for us to make a lot of sense, a

16 particular customer might want not just a

17 pump. They might want membranes, and they

18 might want filter systems, screen wash,

19 whatever. And they'll carry all those

20 products, they'll service all those products

21 so they're more useful to that customer.

22 Some of them do package systems
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1 that won't even fit in this room, okay? These

2 are large-scale -- and when I'm talking a few

3 of these guys, there's quite a few big ones

4 out there. And these packages might use a

5 bare pump. They'll do all the engineering,

6 they'll do all the layouts, whatever. 

7 Some of them, for example, will do

8 the snow-making systems, right? They'll lay

9 out the entire mountain. They'll do all the

10 pipes. They do the pumping stations. They do

11 everything, including fire hydrants during the

12 summer which helps the state parks. I'm using

13 an example. It depends on what area they're

14 in and how big they are.

15 Some of these guys have a couple

16 hundred salesmen, all right? And they have

17 square footages of shops and all their pretty

18 dynamic machine tool sets and all that. So

19 each of the companies, in my opinion, will

20 sign them up, set them up based on their

21 expertise on what area they're filling or what

22 they're carrying. And a lot of them will
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1 carry multiple products pump-wise. They won't

2 have just one pump guy. They'll have

3 different ones based on the type of product it

4 is.

5 So they can be, they can be pretty

6 significant. It's not every one of them, but

7 I'd say a pretty good share of them. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg? 

9 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

10 Grundfos. I think, while there are some that

11 big, but, more commonly, they're probably much

12 smaller value-added distributors that can be

13 10 to 30 people total that maybe only 10 to 40

14 million, and they don't do some of the

15 complexity but they might, as I call them,

16 value-added distributor where they'll take a

17 liquid end or pump end, add their own motor,

18 trim the impeller, add their own mechanical

19 seal, maybe add a baseplate or a few other

20 things. So not without the complexity of big

21 systems, but probably the majority of them are

22 more of that size. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark? 

2 MR. HANDZEL: Xylem's distributors

3 would be more along the lines of what Greg

4 just described. We do have a couple of guys

5 like Chuck described, you know, the packagers

6 that will put, basically, a mechanical room

7 for a building on a skid, boiler, chiller,

8 pumps, heat exchangers, all the trim and

9 everything necessary. But, mostly, we lean

10 toward the type of guy that Greg just

11 described. And they all typically buy resell. 

12 They're under contract with us, so they may

13 only be -- in our case, it's typically they

14 only carry our products. They wouldn't carry

15 any other pump manufacturers' products. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please, Bob? 

17 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from

18 TACO. I would have to say that our

19 distribution probably very much mirrors the

20 distribution of Xylem, which is Mark's

21 company. We have one or two that have sales

22 probably in the range of a couple hundred
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1 million dollars, but the vast majority of them

2 are probably anywhere from a three-man shop to

3 a 15-man shop.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, thank you. 

5 Dan? 

6 MR. COHEN: Dan Cohen. So a

7 couple of questions. So when you say they're

8 under contract to you, exclusively? So in

9 other words, they are essentially taking

10 product from you and then retooling it to do

11 whatever is being specced out by the

12 particular customer?

13 MR. HANDZEL: So they have a

14 distribution agreement that we assign in our

15 primary geographic area, and they are the only

16 person we assign in that primary geographic. 

17 So I, essentially, my company does not have

18 salespeople. We sell through independent

19 manufacturer representatives. 

20 MR. COHEN: Okay. But it could be

21 the same company? 

22 MR. HANDZEL: No, they'd never be
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1 the same company. We compete head-to-head, so

2 our distributors battle in the local

3 territories. 

4 MR. COHEN: And that's because you

5 don't sell directly to --

6 MR. HANDZEL: That's correct.

7 MR. COHEN: -- any customer? It's

8 always going through -- 

9 MR. HANDZEL: The only customer we

10 sell direct to would be an OEM.

11 MR. COHEN: An OEM.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Who's buying it,

13 putting our product into something that

14 they're building.

15 MR. COHEN: And when you are

16 selling that product to the distributor, which

17 we'll call the distributor just for a moment

18 -- 

19 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, which is what

20 he is because he's buy resell. We have some

21 parts of our business that are commission, so

22 that's why there are representatives,
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1 distributors, you know. 

2 MR. COHEN: Unfortunately, that's

3 sort of a bad word for us because we regulate

4 the manufacture of the product, not the

5 distribution of the product. So that doesn't

6 fit into our world. But to the extent that

7 they're manufacturing something, then they're

8 subject to our regulation, right? 

9 MR. HANDZEL: Exactly. And so all

10 these discussions that we had, you know, they

11 are still buying our bare pumps, you know. 

12 And sometimes they buy it with the driver,

13 sometimes with the controls, but other times

14 they just buy the bare pump and they supply

15 the other items. 

16 MR. COHEN: And is there in any

17 situation in which a company like that is just

18 moving boxes that they get, they get a box

19 from you and --

20 MR. HANDZEL: No, no, no. A large

21 part of our product line, it's like a

22 circulator. It's a pump in a box, so the
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1 motor is with the pump. They buy it from us

2 in the box, and they resell it in the box. 

3 They never even open it.

4 MR. COHEN: It's pure

5 distribution.

6 MR. HANDZEL: That's right. But

7 when we get into the larger pumps that have

8 been the primary focus of what the Hydraulic

9 Institute recommendation, they could buy

10 complete from us or that's where they could

11 buy a bare pump and modify it themselves. 

12 MR. COHEN: And they are doing the

13 specifications on that, or they're getting it

14 from you?

15 MR. HANDZEL: Well . . . 

16 MR. POWERS: What do you mean by

17 specs? 

18 MR. COHEN: So in other words,

19 they're trying to, some customer needs a

20 particular -- 

21 MR. HANDZEL: We tell them what

22 motor will fit on that pump. 
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1 MR. COHEN: All right.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So they know

3 what NEMA frame size they have to buy to fit

4 on that pump, so it's to our specifications. 

5 MR. POWERS: But to help clarify a

6 little bit, too, we have all levels of that,

7 also. We have guys just like that, pump in a

8 box, but some, you know, I'll say it again,

9 just to give you an idea, we have 61

10 distributors. We have -- 

11 MR. HANDZEL: Worldwide or -- 

12 MR. POWERS: No, domestically.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Domestically.

14 MR. POWERS: Worldwide is like

15 500. Domestically, you know, 61 distributors,

16 and I'll explain that in a second. Then we

17 have representatives, and rep-wise, it's about

18 40 or 50. And then we have niche OEM guys

19 that specialize calling on somebody who's

20 putting that, you know, air system together or

21 something like that to use in the same kind of

22 pump all the time that goes into that system,
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1 so to speak. 

2 So we sell a lot of bare pumps. 

3 They have their own application people. What

4 we try to do is we say, you know, some of the

5 products, probably like these guys, we sign

6 them up and we say they're territorial, it's

7 certain markets. So we then use their

8 salesmen that call directly on customers, and

9 we'll go in and it's kind of backwards and

10 forwards. On the West Coast, we might have a

11 user that calls on a water plant, but, in

12 Kansas City, a distributor might call water

13 plants. It depends on their strength and who

14 they are and how good they are and all that.

15 But these distributors are self16 sufficient. They do their own applications,

17 they read their own spec, they have their own

18 terms and conditions. We have a separate set

19 of terms and conditions we give them because

20 we're shipping them a bare pump, full

21 diameter, you know, to a certain kind of code

22 that they order from us. Some are stainless,
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1 some are duplex, some might be cast iron,

2 whatever, right? Even in the smaller

3 standardized pumps, right? And then they'll

4 take that and they'll do whatever they need to

5 do with it to serve that market. 

6 And to your point, I might have a

7 distributor that is also his distributor

8 because maybe I don't compete with them on

9 certain products, right? There is some of

10 that. But a core competitor, like maybe, like

11 ITT Goulds, we're very careful, four or five

12 big guys, we won't have any. But what's

13 interesting there then, if I have 50, he also

14 has a different 50, right? Or sixty-one. So

15 it goes out. And if I go into a typical

16 distributor, it depends what the market is,

17 they could have 15 to 20 product lines, right? 

18 Because they're trying to serve a lot of,

19 they'll have valves, pumps. They'll have

20 motors. They'll have all this stuff, right? 

21 And they're serving a niche, you know,

22 category because we'd have to put people on
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1 the street in that town with service, and

2 that's the only thing they bring to the table

3 is when John Doe calls up he doesn't want to

4 wait three days for us to leave New York and

5 go out to Kansas and service it. There's a

6 guy in Kansas City right down the street that

7 will go service that thing. 

8 MR. COHEN: So we don't want to

9 get bogged down on this conversation today

10 because there are other things to talk about. 

11 Maybe this is something we can set up a

12 separate workgroup to kind of drill down on

13 because what we really need to get at is how

14 that is set up so that we can define precisely

15 who is manufacturing for purposes of this

16 statute, as opposed to just simply, you know,

17 moving products around and not really doing

18 anything. 

19 MR. POWERS: Al has talked about

20 it, and we have concerns over that. We're

21 listening to what you want to do, how we're

22 going to -- because when we look at your
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1 board, we're thinking through the full food

2 chain, you know, the whole process, the whole

3 lineage. We're not just looking at what we're

4 going to deal with and how does this get to

5 the market. 

6 Again, some of the things you

7 could do, and I don't know, is if you say this

8 pump gets a, I'll use the dumb example, CE

9 stamp like in Europe, right? If it gets a DOE

10 stamp that says, boom, we've certified this

11 type of product pump for whatever. Now, where

12 it ends up, it doesn't matter because it has

13 to have that stamp. So if one of these guys

14 are carrying a non-certified pump and it

15 doesn't have that stamp, they can't go to the

16 market with it, so it carries through. It

17 doesn't just, who does the packaging, so to

18 speak. 

19 MR. COHEN: Okay, thank you. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg? 

21 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

22 Grundfos. Just one quick thing, Dan, a
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1 clarification. You asked who specifies what's

2 provided sometimes. As they said, sometimes

3 we'll provide just the bare pump to them, and,

4 at that point, their customer is specifying to

5 the distributor what they need: do they need

6 the pump painted blue or red or trimmed to

7 what diameter impeller, what mechanical seal. 

8 So at that point, they're specifying, the

9 discussions on the specification of the pump

10 needs by the customer is between the customer

11 and the distributor sometimes. 

12 MR. COHEN: And at that point, and

13 this is sort of why I was asking the question,

14 at that point they're getting to that separate

15 company, separate from the OEM manufacturer. 

16 They're making a decision about what to

17 package up into what becomes the pump that

18 actually, as we're defining it, the broader

19 definition of pump that gets sold to the

20 market. And they're actually doing the work,

21 and that might require some additional

22 engineering. But that might require trimming
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1 this or, you know -- 

2 MR. POWERS: But, see, what's

3 interesting, what's interesting, as I go

4 around, some of the work they do, in our shops

5 we do the exact same thing, except for this

6 customer, except for that customer. It's very

7 similar, right? Because we also invoke our

8 standards down to them on things they have to

9 do. Like, if it's in the chemical market,

10 they have to do things certain ways, in the

11 power market certain ways, and in general

12 industry or whatever, right? 

13 But what's unique again is, if the

14 core product has to be a certain efficiency,

15 even if they're trimming it, even if they're

16 adding stuff, they still have the core product

17 that has to meet some standard, right? They

18 can't go elsewhere and play games. So maybe

19 there's a way, you know, instead of worrying

20 about where it's packaged or whatever, start

21 with who is the original OEM, and maybe that's

22 the term you want to use, and go from there
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1 because they're not OEMs. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

4 EEI. And, again, I'm just speaking with, like,

5 other products. What if the customer is doing

6 that on-site and going and just getting this

7 stuff from the OEMs, and then they're doing

8 the actual revising of the product? 

9 MR. POWERS: Yes, maybe Charlie

10 can step in here. My guess would be the more

11 standard they won't, which is most of the

12 category, in my opinion. I could be wrong. 

13 I'd have to go back and ask the team and ask

14 questions.

15 What I saw in green, you probably

16 won't have as much of that, right? You start

17 getting into some of these other products,

18 specialized, you know, engineered types of

19 things, you know -- I'll give an example. It

20 won't be in this category, but Shell. Shell

21 and certain refineries have their own team. 

22 They're so good, they know what that refinery
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1 needs and they'll buy the bare pump and do all

2 the rest. 

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The point being

4 is, like, suppose a customer is doing it, as

5 well as a distributor, then what? 

6 MR. COHEN: So under the statute,

7 the customer can do whatever they want. If

8 you go out and you buy, you go today and you

9 go to Best Buy and you buy yourself a

10 refrigerator and you want to add a television

11 to it, you know, go right ahead. You can do

12 that. 

13 MR. POWERS: But what's cool about

14 that option is that OEM guy who built the base

15 refrigerator has to have a stamp on it that

16 meets your deal. So after that, again, you

17 know, you start with where's the food chain? 

18 MR. COHEN: But the law is pretty

19 clear. Once it gets to the actual end user of

20 the product, our authority is cut off and then

21 the end user does, you know, whatever the end

22 user wants to do. It's in your house. We
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1 don't actually go into your house and tell you

2 what to do with your refrigerator. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Dan. Thank

4 you. Okay. And Gary Fernstrom had a few

5 slides he wanted to just flash through here

6 before we go back through the issues of

7 definition and the like. 

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. This is

9 Gary with California IOUs. Just very quickly,

10 I shared with you that we were going to be

11 testing some circulator pumps. I'm going to

12 show you some pictures of where we are with

13 the test stand. 

14 What I don't want to have happen

15 is us to test these things and then come back

16 with the results at the next meeting and have

17 you all tell me we did the test wrong. So,

18 hopefully, we can have private communications

19 to make sure that, you know, what we do is

20 meeting your needs for testing.

21 This shows three pumps hooked up

22 in parallel for break-in. The EU requires ten
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1 hours of break-in. This shows our TDH

2 imposer, if you will, with course and fine

3 adjustment to adjust the head that pumps are

4 pumping against. This is a coriolis flow

5 standard that we're using to check the

6 accuracy of the magnetic flow meters we're

7 using for this test.

8 And this is a picture of the whole

9 pump stand. What's not shown here is the

10 electrical measurement, and we'll be using a

11 NIST traceable 

12 Yokogawa wattmeter to test all of the

13 electrical variables, which would be voltage,

14 current, watts, power factor, volt-amps,

15 harmonics, that sort of stuff.

16 So if either after this meeting or

17 privately, if you have any particular views on

18 what you think we ought to do with testing,

19 please let me know. We're planning to do is

20 use the EU control test with whatever controls

21 these pumps may have enabled, and then we're

22 planning to do a non-control test to hopefully
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1 give us the intrinsic efficiency of the pump

2 and motor not utilizing control features. 

3 Thank you. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Mark? 

5 MR. HANDZEL: Gary, just to give

6 you some feedback. I don't think any one of

7 us at this table has said that, you know, a PM

8 circulator is less efficient than a standard

9 circulator. So, I mean, there's no dispute

10 that you're going to find, you know, the ECM

11 motors to be far more efficient than, you

12 know, the standard induction motor circulator. 

13 So I guess I'm just saying I'm not quite sure

14 what you're expecting the working group to

15 take from this as an end result. 

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, what we

17 expect to do is quantify the difference in

18 energy use, so when coupled with some

19 estimate, if we can come to it, of hours of

20 operation and market saturation, we'll have an

21 idea of what the energy use and energy savings

22 potential is to inform the group about whether
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1 or not a standard is merited.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Gary, thanks, and

4 you have permission to share that data with

5 us, right? I didn't know how proprietary the

6 data was going to be. 

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, we'll make it

8 blind with respect to who the manufacturers

9 are. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments,

11 questions here? Okay. Thank you, Gary. And

12 can people visit this site? 

13 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. 

14 Sure, absolutely. Anyone who wants to visit,

15 you know, participate, is welcome to do so,

16 except that we are going to keep the

17 manufacturing information confidential. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So now I

19 want to return to page three. We were in

20 discussion yesterday, and I thought we had a

21 pretty thorough discussion on the possible

22 definition. And then the point was made that
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1 maybe we should figure out the scope first. 

2 However, to be clear, the header reads

3 "possible definition of covered product,"

4 right? That is the broad definition. Lucas? 

5 MR. ADIN: Yes. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: That is for DOE's

7 purposes and the working group's purposes. 

8 MR. ADIN: Right. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Elaborate on this.

10 MR. ADIN: It is the definition of

11 what -- well, this is the definition that

12 clarifies what the term "pump" means in terms

13 of the statutory term "pump" in EPCA. So this

14 is the broader category of things, classified

15 as a pump for which DOE has statutory

16 authority to set standards, so assigning a

17 definition to that term. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: And then this

19 working group will decide which pumps which

20 fit inside this covered product definition,

21 which pumps they choose to recommend to ASRAC

22 be regulated?
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1 MR. ADIN: That's right.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary? 

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. 

4 So, Lucas, I just want to be clear on this

5 that you refer to this statutory term pump,

6 and that's defined somewhere else. That's not

7 something that DOE does or we do, or does DOE

8 have some influence over the statutory

9 definition? I know maybe you can't answer it,

10 but that's my question.

11 MR. ADIN: So the word pump,

12 obviously, is in the statute. But the word

13 pump, that term doesn't have a specific

14 definition in the statute that's associated

15 with it. So we're assigning one, yes. 

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. You've

17 answered my question. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So I think this is

19 the language. 

20 MS. WILLIAMS: We had a

21 recommendation that this should actually not

22 be fluids because that could mean air, for
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1 example. So it's been recommended that we

2 maybe change it to liquid or something else. 

3 Does anybody have comment on that? 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Fluids could mean

5 air?

6 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 

7 MR. POWERS: There's two things --

8 Chuck Powers here. There's two things. The

9 EU or the ERP group that put this together,

10 their version, is very similar and said a

11 water pump is a hydraulic part of a device

12 that moves clean water by physical or

13 mechanical action and is one of the following

14 designs, and it goes on to list those group of

15 11, right? But what's unique is they go in

16 and define the water.

17 MR. CASE: This is the general

18 definition. 

19 MR. POWERS: Right, right. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we have a

21 definition for clean water. 

22 MR. POWERS: Right. But my point
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1 is I think most of what's written there is not

2 exactly but fairly close to . . . 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, I'd

4 like to see if everybody is kind of

5 comfortable with this definition of pump. 

6 Yes, Gary? 

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

8 California IOUs. So I have an issue with

9 this. I certainly see the benefit of having

10 a very broad definition, which I think DOE, in

11 general, wants to do. However, by having a

12 broad definition of pump and then limiting the

13 federal regulation, if I understand it right,

14 where you preempt the states from attempting

15 to regulate anything that DOE chooses not to

16 do. And that doesn't seem like a very

17 desirable situation to me. 

18 So I would want the definition to

19 conform more precisely with what DOE chooses

20 to regulate, leaving the option of other

21 things open for others who might have an

22 interest and have a resulting benefit from
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1 regulating. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments on

3 these points? Louis? 

4 MR. STARR: I was just kind of

5 thinking that probably, before we fix the

6 definition of pump, we should probably, kind

7 of like we originally started, determine what

8 the coverage is first because the area of

9 coverage and some of the other aspects may

10 affect what the definition of pump is. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you agree

12 globally with, are you sympathetic with Gary's

13 review? 

14 MR. STARR: Yes. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Charlie? 

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Since it was

17 repeated by Gary, I'll repeat the statement

18 from the manufacturers. This is Charlie from

19 ITT. And from our view, the more commonality

20 we have across the market, that's our

21 preference, so we don't have to deal with

22 different requirements from one state to the
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1 next to the next.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. You wish to

3 have a broad application here. You're not

4 referring to the EU definition. 

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: I'm talking

6 about, within the United States, a uniformity

7 of requirements, from a product standpoint and

8 a regulatory standpoint, is an advantage to

9 the manufacturers. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Gary? 

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary for the

12 California IOU. So, Charlie, frankly, I agree

13 with you. I see great value in commonality. 

14 However, I see great failure in a

15 non-regulation regulation. So it seems to me

16 we have three situations. We can have

17 commonality, which we all agree is ideal. We

18 can have the circumstance where, if the

19 federal government chooses not to regulate

20 something, others who have regulatory

21 authority, such as the states, can. And we

22 can have this situation where if the federal
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1 government chooses not to regulate something,

2 nobody can. And I just think the last

3 category is untenable. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. It seems as

5 though we, it seems as though we have a couple

6 of different -- Betsy? 

7 MS. KOHL: So this is all tied up

8 in the preemption discussion that we indicated

9 is going to have to take place after today. 

10 So we did want to emphasize that, regardless

11 of how that issue was resolved, there are

12 waiver provisions for preemption in the

13 statute and there's a process for that that

14 you may be familiar with. But just so that

15 you're aware of that, states can apply for a

16 preemption based on -- 

17 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. 

18 Thank you. We have found the waiver process

19 to be absolutely useless. We have attempted

20 and, to my knowledge, no one has ever

21 successfully gotten a waiver. So for all

22 practical purposes, that's not an option. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: It seems, based on

2 the -- go ahead, Meg. 

3 MS. WALTNER: Maybe this is what

4 you were about to say, but I was just going to

5 say, you know, I think for the advocates, the

6 discussion of scope is really critical to our

7 decision on the definition of a covered

8 product. So until we get some of those issues

9 resolved, hopefully leading up to the next

10 meeting, we're not going to be able to make a

11 decision on this really. So I'm not going -- 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's where I was

13 going, yes, in that direction. I'll say we

14 have a couple of different world views here,

15 that's clear. Steve Rosenstock? 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

17 EEI. I agree that this is critical. Again,

18 I guess everything comes down to how much of

19 an initial scope do we want to start with

20 this? Because, remember, the initial scope,

21 it might make it harder to expand the scope

22 later on. So, again, it's a matter of we have
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1 a big scope and we just do clean water. 

2 Again, conceptually, then if DOE wants to get

3 into waste water pumps or non-clean water

4 pumps, it's like, oh, wait a minute, the

5 original rule says you can only do clean

6 water. So it could be a hurdle later on.

7 So, again, I'm just thinking 10,

8 15 years down the road is, if we agree, I'll

9 just say, I'll say a narrow scope until we

10 match what we agree on to the scope and

11 everything matches, there could be a precedent

12 that says, well, if DOE wants to expand, a

13 narrow definition of scope could make it

14 harder for DOE to justify it. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. And there

16 you've offered the counterpart. Now back to

17 Gary. 

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom

19 again, California IOUs. So Steve, there have

20 been many products initially regulated in

21 California that DOE has chosen to cover and

22 adopted similar regulations. So I don't see
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1 much risk associated with taking a narrower

2 scope to begin with and later expanding it, as

3 opposed to a very broad scope and not doing

4 anything with it. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to

6 suggest we move on. Louis, final comment? 

7 MR. STARR: Just another thought. 

8 You know, one part is the market. I guess

9 U.S. competitors and the world of circulators

10 may not be up to speed on competitively

11 participating in the market, whereas if it's

12 adopted in a small area, although California

13 is not terribly small, it is a smaller market

14 than the whole U.S. market, they give an

15 opportunity for the pump manufacturers to get

16 everything more up to speed while still

17 incentivizing some energy and encouraging

18 energy efficient technology in a pumping

19 application. So, I mean, I kind of see

20 upsides for both in terms of this possibly

21 being regulation in California. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's move,
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1 let's look at the clean water definition since

2 we have one. And, once again, the source for

3 this, Greg, this is the EU definition that HI

4 has looked at, and you feel comfortable with

5 this? He said yes. 

6 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. 

7 I just want to clarify this first definition

8 is what's in the EU standard for clean water,

9 and there's a separate definition for testing

10 of clean cold water. So I have them both on

11 there, and I just wanted to make that clear

12 that there's two different ones, which may or

13 may not be what we want to do. Probably the

14 definition for clean water has to be

15 objectively quantifiable in some form. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you read it? 

17 Is it big enough to read? Can you read it? 

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, yes. Thank

19 you very much. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: What does it mean,

21 any additives that are needed to avoid water

22 freezing down to minus 10 degrees C shall not
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1 be taken into account? That's okay. It's

2 okay is what that means? 

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is Steve. 

4 That's the glycol issue that I was asking

5 about before because it can be used in a lot

6 of systems.

7 Solar thermal applications and the

8 like. MR. BROOKMAN: And then the second one

9 is -- whose definition is that? 

10 MS. WILLIAMS: This is also the EU

11 definition, but it's referring to testing

12 rather than standards applications. 

13 MS. WALTNER: Doug, can I ask a

14 question? 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Meg, please.

16 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, NRDC. 

17 For the pump manufacturers who worked on this

18 definition in the EU standard, how were the

19 quarter kilogram per meter cubed and 50

20 kilogram per meter cubed metrics developed? 

21 Where did those come from? 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg? 
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1 MR. CASE: I can't tell you

2 exactly where those came from. This is Greg

3 Case of HI. They were an attempt to keep us

4 away from solids-handling pumps, and so that

5 was a size range to keep us out of the

6 solids-handling. And I believe that still

7 would include things like seawater and things

8 like that in the definition. So we were

9 trying to, what they were trying to do was say

10 you could have gray water, you could have

11 clean water, but you weren't having a

12 solids-handling pump, a significant

13 solids-handling. 

14 MR. POWERS: And I think what they

15 also tried to do -- 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers. 

17 MR. POWERS: -- when I was at one

18 of the meetings is they took a look at all the

19 pumps across the board and they said when do

20 we get to the point that the solids will

21 either impact the ability for a water pump not

22 to work anymore or have excessive wear or
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1 other factors, right? To try to look at what

2 are those limits, right? Not that somebody

3 should use a water pump for that, but, if they

4 did, it's going to have an adverse effect. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

7 EEI. So seawater, all saltwater/seawater,

8 would that be considered clean water in this

9 definition? I just want to clarify just for

10 my own education. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, that's what

12 Greg said, yes. 

13 MS. WILLIAMS: And we checked the

14 map , and it does include sea -- 

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So like

16 for a desalinization plant, those pumps could

17 qualify if they fell in this category then? 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, thank you. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm not sure we

21 -- well, maybe we'll just spend a few minutes. 

22 There are other things I want to cover here
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1 before we leave today. Any comments on this? 

2 We're going to not do anything with it today,

3 but any comments, any general problems with

4 what's being described here just right now

5 before we move on? Chuck? 

6 MR. POWERS: I would take out the

7 test stand, and the reason there is a purpose

8 for that is if you're going to do a test, and

9 I'm sure Sarah can comment towards it, you

10 don't want the temperature up at X because it

11 can have effects on the impact to the

12 efficiency of the pumps or other things. And

13 I think what that was just trying to say is,

14 you know, make sure that when you do a test it

15 doesn't go beyond some of these parameters. 

16 That's all that was. I don't think it's, I

17 don't want to get the two mixed up. And to be

18 fair, the reason I'm saying that is because,

19 in the definition that you look at here, they

20 do in another paragraph say that water pumps

21 between minus 10 and plus 120 C, all they're

22 saying is when you do a test don't go above
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1 40, right? You know, because it could have

2 impacts. You know what I mean? 

3 So we've got to be careful, your

4 double standard. When you use the one that

5 says 40 degrees C, it doesn't show, well, it

6 says minus 10, but if you go into the EU

7 standard, they actually say the water pumps

8 are in between minus 10 and 120. So I just

9 want to make sure we don't, you know, somebody

10 won't interpret that, oh, good, we can -- you

11 know what I mean? And I don't want that to --

12 you're going to eliminate pumps if you limit

13 it at 40. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Final

15 comments on clean water definition? Let's

16 move on to after the --

17 MR. ADIN: Doug, just to clarify

18 --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, please? 

20 MR. ADIN: -- assume that is one

21 of the conditions you'd use for the test,

22 that's something that will be specified in the
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1 test procedure, right? So we're not proposing

2 to use this as a means for classifying pumps

3 for the purpose of coverage, this is just a

4 test condition. Right, okay. Yes, I

5 personally don't see the benefit of having

6 that particular definition here. I don't know

7 what purpose that serves. It's not a really

8 scope of coverage thing, it's a test condition

9 so . . . 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's just

11 make a notation. 

12 MS. WILLIAMS: We just wanted to

13 provide, just to make sure that people know

14 that there are two separate definitions for

15 clean water. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. You've got

17 it. Let's go to what was formerly a possible

18 definition of covered product that's now

19 called general description of pump components. 

20 So this is the reworking of this slide that we

21 took up yesterday morning, and I thought this

22 was a good discussion. And I was wanting to
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1 generally see if you think these are, since

2 you've had a chance to sleep on it, whether

3 these descriptors, these descriptions are

4 good, sufficient, whether you like what you

5 see there. 

6 MR. ADIN: So the only comment

7 that I had -- this is Lucas Adin, DOE -- is on

8 the driver definition, is there any reason not

9 to just put a period after mechanical

10 equipment and exclude the rest of that? I

11 mean, do we have to specify what all those

12 things could be? Along the same lines of what

13 we did for -- 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

16 EEI. From my view, it's kind of important

17 because I know in all the conversations and,

18 again, it just shows, I think it helps to show

19 that there's a variety of equipment that can

20 be used for the drivers. I know that the

21 conversation is dominated about motors,

22 especially in the size, because you're talking
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1 about the smaller size, under 200 horsepower,

2 and probably the diesels or the gas ones are

3 probably larger. But I think it kind of helps

4 to show that it shows a realization that there

5 could be multiple drivers out there, so I

6 don't think it hurts that definition there.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 

8 MR. BROOKMAN : Okay. So, those

9 that I listed and not including marine, Navy

10 and nuclear pumps and sanitary pumps and this

11 one still to be -- do we need additional

12 discussion on any of those before we take a

13 vote to exclude them?

14 Meg.

15 MS. WALTNER: So, just to be a

16 hundred percent clear, the ones that say

17 "okay" next to them on that list up there is

18 the ones we're voting to exclude.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: The ones I just

20 read, yes.

21 MS. WALTNER: Yes.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And also to be
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1 clear following what you said earlier,

2 definitions are required for these, right? We

3 want to obtain clarity on what this means.

4 Doug, do you have a question or

5 comment?

6 MR. POTTS: Yeah, just -- Doug

7 Potts, American Water.

8 Just for my own clarification,

9 could you remind me why the axial mixed flow

10 pumps were excluded?

11 Was it just because of the small

12 market share?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

14 MR. HUBER: Yes, it's a very, very

15 small market share in the size range we're

16 talking about. Most of those are sold in much

17 higher horsepowers in much higher sizes and

18 much higher flows.

19 So, I mean, it would just be way

20 out of the scope.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, I'm about

22 to move the question here.
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1 MR. POWERS: If I could go back,

2 again I'm just trying to make sure we're

3 clear.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

5 MR. POWERS: So we're not wasting

6 time and going on forever here several months

7 or whatever it's going to take, but the

8 marine, Navy, nuclear, Lucas, I'm going to ask

9 you. Do you feel compelled where you want to

10 take that off the, I mean, get rid of it and

11 we will include those, or do you feel that

12 there is a possibility -- what am I missing?

13 MR. ADIN: So, I mean, in

14 principle, personally, I don't have any

15 problem taking them off the list myself. My

16 understanding is that maybe there are some

17 others in the group that needed to hear a

18 little more clarity on how that --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: But my reservation

20 is we discussed all of these with the

21 exception of these last two, rather

22 thoroughly. And as a process feature, I'd
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1 like to make certain that we were careful

2 about the deliberation we do here.

3 So, that's the reason I -- if you

4 want to convince everyone right now, that's

5 fine, but that's my reservation.

6 MR. POWERS: Okay. So, who do I

7 have to convince?

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: These folks right

10 here. Those folks over there.

11 Joanna.

12 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna.

13 Yeah, I don't -- similar to Lucas,

14 I don't think we have any objection in

15 principle, but we don't have a good

16 understanding yet of what exactly we're

17 talking about and how they're going to be

18 defined.

19 So, I think if you guys can come

20 back at the next meeting and just give us some

21 additional information just so we have a

22 better understanding of what you're talking
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1 about and --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

3 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think that's

4 basically it. I don't think there's any -- I

5 think we would readily accept that exclusion

6 pending a clear definition of what these are.

7 MR. POWERS: So, I guess I can't

8 give you a lot of information on Navy pumps,

9 because I'm under oath, I'm going to come back

10 and say Navy pumps. Then I can go on to nuke

11 a little more.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure.

13 MR. POWERS: And I'm even limited

14 there. And then the marine obviously I can

15 expand on some, but I'm not sure what we're

16 saying here.

17 MR. ECKMAN: Is this that that's

18 the exclusive customer of these pumps?

19 MR. POWERS: Yes.

20 MR. ECKMAN: Military --

21 MR. ADIN: Can I make a quick

22 clarification? That applies to certain --
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1 there are certain pumps used in naval

2 applications that are custom designed, have

3 very, very stringent, you know, whether it's

4 nuclear, sound, whatever it is.

5 There are other pumps used on Navy

6 ships that are off the shelf that are --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: And there are marine

8 applications which are much broader, right?

9 MR. ADIN: Sure. And marine I

10 think we're talking about just shipboard,

11 generally, not the Marine Corps.

12 MR. BROOKMAN : Right. That's what

13 I mean, yes.

14 MR. ADIN: So, you know,

15 conceivably there could be pumps in there that

16 are something used in a building. And I think

17 that's really what we're trying to get to the

18 bottom of is how do you definitively determine

19 - because it's, you know, it's a fairly broad

20 category of things.

21 Some of them obviously you would

22 never want to touch. Very custom. Very, you
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1 know, uniquely specified.

2 I think we're just trying to make

3 sure we understand which ones might be closer

4 to the boundary and how do you exclude them.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Greg.

6 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.

7 I think in our discussions we've

8 always said we're dealing with off-the-shelf

9 product, non-engineered product.

10 The ones you were just talking

11 about are engineered product. So, in general,

12 I don't know if we add something in there that

13 says non-engineered product,

14 non-custom-designed product, because we're not

15 supposed to be talking about those in this

16 rulemaking, was my understanding.

17 Those are not something you're

18 going to go -- you're trying to get the bulk

19 of the market. You're not trying to get this

20 engineered product that we would make one or

21 two of, correct?

22 MR. ADIN: So, that's really the
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1 kind of description that maybe is -- I don't

2 know how exactly -- what kind of word -- we

3 might need to think about this on our end. I

4 mean, we could even make some suggestions

5 ourselves, because we've dealt with this kind

6 of thing before.

7 But it probably wouldn't be

8 sufficient just to say for shipboard

9 application or -- because that's pretty broad,

10 right?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I've made a note

12 about those words and I think we'll return to

13 them, but now we want -- Louis, go ahead.

14 MR. STARR: So, I think the marine

15 application and the shipboard ones could be

16 covered by some of the exclusion, maybe

17 temperature with the nuclear one, probably

18 there's temperature requirements to the fluid.

19 And then I don't know about some

20 of the naval aspects, but seawater, is that

21 clean water or not?

22 So, in other words, these things
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1 may take care of themselves in some of the

2 exclusions of the --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you advocating

4 we address them now?

5 MR. STARR: I was saying I'm kind

6 of getting at that it's not an issue, is more

7 of what I'm getting at, is that they're

8 excluded already.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: In the current

10 definition of clean water by the EU, seawater

11 is included.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

13 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest

14 Power.

15 It may be that when you guys

16 identify the specifics, that it's not

17 necessarily a category, but it's a parameter

18 by which you can exclude them.

19 They're made out of stainless

20 steel of X mill, they are designed for X

21 temperatures or something like that that it

22 may be easier to do it that way than it is to
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1 list them as a --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

3 MR. HUBER: I think what we'll do

4 is we'll go back and I understand that you're

5 not -- the NGOs are not -- or are willing to

6 exclude them. You just got to make sure that

7 there can't be any cross-pollination back to

8 the, or there's some reason the cost,

9 materials, something that blocks that.

10 So, our group will take that back,

11 as I promised earlier, and try to bring that

12 back in March for you to consider.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. Okay. 

14 I'm ready to move the question one more time. 

15 We've fully considered and discussed all of

16 the items on the red list.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'd say okay.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Should I read them

19 again? No, I'm not going to read them again,

20 but there are two of them I would note.

21 I would note that the two that

22 were not included as marine, Navy, nuclear
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1 pumps and also sanitary pumps and also pumps

2 outside certain parameters of power flow,

3 power flowhead, temperature, speed and bowl

4 diameter. So, we're not considering those.

5 The other items on the list here

6 in red are on the original list, which we

7 discussed fully. So, what I'm proposing is

8 now as a working group we take a vote to

9 exclude those items that I've listed.

10 All those in favor of excluding

11 these items, please raise your hand.

12 (Voting.)

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So, scanning around

14 the room I would note that every single member

15 of the committee has agreed. We have a

16 unanimity in support of excluding these as

17 another consensus. Thank you very much.

18 (Applause.)

19 MR. BROOKMAN: We're getting good

20 at this. Now, what do you think about some of

21 these items , and let's talk about green and

22 yellow.
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1 My remembrance from yesterday is

2 that -- or should we go to the definitions? 

3 Let's stick with this.

4 My remembrance from yesterday is

5 green is, that's principally, those are the

6 major categories that were in the HI proposal,

7 correct? That is correct, right?

8 And DOE at the framework meeting

9 in February a year ago, basically was saying

10 they thought that that was a sensible kind of

11 a core bunch of products and then they had

12 some additions.

13 And those additions are largely

14 listed there in yellow. And maybe there's a

15 few in addition to what DOE was thinking at

16 that framework meeting.

17 So, I would just open it up for

18 discussion here. Confirm my logic. Describe

19 what in yellow you think might also be subject

20 to exclusion. And maybe at this point, we

21 will not entertain additional discussion on

22 circulators unless you want to, because it
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1 seems like we're waiting on data there.

2 Go ahead, Lucas.

3 MR. ADIN: Well, some in the group

4 might be. I don't know. I mean, I'm speaking

5 for DOE's part. I don't know that we are, but

6 --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, let's talk about

8 that, yeah.

9 MR. ADIN: I think I've gotten the

10 impression that there are some who are willing

11 to make a decision on circulators today, but,

12 you know, I'd like to hear what the rest of

13 the group thinks about it.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So, let's hear about

15 some individuals about any of these items

16 listed in yellow.

17 Steve.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

19 Yeah, just as another thought to

20 this here, do you want to -- is there a way to

21 do a group thing? There's five maybes outside

22 of circulators. Discuss those as a group if
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1 that's -- if there's a way to do that like we

2 did with the nos.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah -- well, that

4 was -- yeah, I was thinking that right now any

5 individual that wanted to advocate for

6 excluding any of these yellows or greens could

7 do so probably focusing on the yellows and

8 just see where we end up.

9 Al.

10 MR. HUBER: I would like to see us

11 exclude the yellow until such time as we have

12 data necessary to make an intelligent

13 decision, because we don't have it.

14 The data that we were shown

15 yesterday is just all over the map, not

16 accurate. And what we would like to see, or

17 at least some of our group would like to see,

18 is the adoption of the HI proposal and these

19 in yellow be considered at a later date,

20 including the circulators, by next year so

21 that we have enough time to get enough data

22 together so we can accurately decide whether
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1 we ought to include them or not.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm noting what I

3 believe you said yesterday or -- yes,

4 yesterday, Al, which was the most recent data

5 request from DOE went out, oh, in the last

6 couple of weeks.

7 MR. HUBER: January the 10th, I

8 think.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: And you were

10 suggesting that from your perspective, you

11 thought that the industry would be coming back

12 with that data four or five months you said,

13 I believe. Three, five months?

14 MR. HUBER: No, that was something

15 -- I think probably end of February or March

16 sometime.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, end of February

18 or March for the current request.

19 MR. HUBER: The current request. 

20 And I think if I'm not mistaken, it is the

21 maybe items. Is it all the maybe items, or

22 not? I don't recall.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, all the maybe

2 items are in there, as well as some additional

3 data for the yes items.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, you want to

5 follow on?

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

7 Cappellino.

8 The data that Al is referring to

9 is really more the market data in the survey,

10 I believe.

11 I know on the items in green we

12 have the benefit of all of the MEI study that

13 the EU did to give us good target efficiencies

14 for those type of products.

15 I'm not sure we have that same

16 kind of information to base MEIs on or the

17 items in yellow, which is another piece of the

18 puzzle here. You can correct me if I'm wrong,

19 but --

20 MR. HUBER: I think that's part of

21 their survey, because they're asking, well,

22 are they? They're asking for efficiencies
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1 that, I mean, we haven't developed an MEI for

2 it.

3 I assume that they're going to try

4 to from the data that they're asking for.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, that's Al Huber

7 speaking. And --

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So, yeah, sorry. 

9 This is Alison.

10 So, with the, I mean, we're trying

11 to collect data part load also so we can

12 explore different kind of metrics to look at

13 with the different performance data that's

14 provided.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, do you want to

16 chime in here? No. So, what, does anybody,

17 someone talk about some of these items in

18 yellow. Al has already suggested we don't

19 have the data.

20 Also implicit in that is getting

21 the data is going to take time. Doing the

22 analysis is going to take time.
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1 We've discussed earlier yesterday

2 and today about the time frame that we're

3 considering here presumably in the, get it

4 done in this year. Perhaps a term sheet to

5 DOE by July so that they can get it in NOPR

6 language by September.

7 Thoughts on items in yellow. Yes,

8 Tom Eckman.

9 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest

10 Power Council.

11 You know, looking back at the

12 shipment slide, which I think is 12, and the

13 variation in our knowledge of the magnitude of

14 the shipments, it's not just in the yellow

15 range. It's all the way across the green.

16 If you look at some of those,

17 there are, you know, from high to low

18 estimates, there's a 40 times difference

19 between one estimate and another about how

20 many units we're actually shipping in some of

21 these product classes.

22 So, I think we're in jeopardy of
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1 making decisions without much information

2 across both the yellow and the green, because

3 I'm willing to take a look at the green to see

4 whether the magnitude of some of those sales

5 is too small to bother with as well.

6 Even though you guys have thought

7 about it, it's not clear from this that

8 somewhere between 3500 and 23,000 or between

9 8,000 and 470,000 is the shipments for that

10 unit. That tells me nothing.

11 So, until we get better resolution

12 on this to narrow those ranges, I don't know

13 which are big magnitudes and which are small

14 magnitudes. And, again, it's not just the

15 energy consumption, but the potential for

16 improvement in those classes that strikes me

17 as important.

18 They can use a lot of energy, but

19 there might not be potential for improvement. 

20 Well, let's not spend a lot of time on

21 something where we can't get any change unless

22 we -- if there's a real potential for
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1 improvement particularly with an integrated

2 product, then let's target those things.

3 But until we see more substantial

4 shipments information, I'm sort of reluctant

5 to make a move to decide yes, no or sideways

6 on any of these.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw Al Huber

8 first.

9 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

10 In the current surveys, they do

11 not take in consideration any of the green. 

12 So, as far as I know --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, they do.

14 MR. HUBER: All of them?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

16 MR. HUBER: Yeah. So, we've got to

17 go back. We've got to go back through all

18 that and we haven't, you know, we don't have

19 that information.

20 The problem that we have for most

21 of our manufacturers is some of this

22 information exists, some of it doesn't.
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1 Some of it is not in the -- it

2 doesn't exist in the exact categories that are

3 asked for. So, it's going to take us some

4 time to get all this in, but we do have on the

5 green, we do have an MEI. We do have those

6 already fleshed out. We do know what the

7 potential is for energy improvement, which was

8 one reason that we're proposing let's do the

9 green, because we're willing to do that.

10 It is in alignment with EU. 

11 Although, they're going -- they're moving to

12 some of these that are in the yellow, which,

13 you know, we were proposing that.

14 And what we're saying is that if

15 we move on with the green and get it done, you

16 know, this group as the manufacturers are more

17 than willing to sit down again and next year,

18 January or December or whenever anybody wants

19 to, and start working on circulators and some

20 of these in yellow. And we will have the

21 data, we think, massaged, in good shape and

22 we'll find out what we need to have. And
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1 that's why we propose that.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. Chuck, I'm

3 going to let a few advocates follow on; is

4 that okay?

5 MR. POWERS: Whatever you want to

6 do.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, I want to do

8 that.

9 Louis.

10 MR. STARR: So, more of my thought

11 is I would just regardless of whether these

12 ones in yellow become covered or not covered,

13 prefer that DOE just do their statutory

14 requirement of looking at the analysis I've

15 seen with the savings there, potential or not. 

16 Do the best job they can that can be used in

17 the future 14 years from now, 21 years from

18 now. So, you've got to get the ball rolling,

19 if nothing else.

20 And then, you know, clearly there

21 are some existing opportunities, there's other

22 ways we can address them through states and
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1 some other things. So, maybe the federal

2 forum is not the proper way to do it.

3 And so, that will inform those

4 kind of decisions. So, for now it's really,

5 it's getting that information back and then

6 helping us to just inform the decision.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, I don't want

8 to put you on the spot. Would you be

9 comfortable with the sort of phased approach

10 that Al is suggesting that we start with a

11 scope, perhaps the scope in green, and then

12 with a commitment to return to a scope,

13 perhaps the scope in yellow, in a year or so

14 when the data and analysis is more advanced?

15 MR. STARR: I think we can make

16 that decision probably whenever we get the

17 information out, because you're assuming that

18 all of that process is happening on the part

19 of the Department of Energy where it could

20 happen at the state level.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

22 MR. STARR: So, in other words,
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1 agreeing to something that's going to happen

2 in a federal standard.

3 And in reality, DOE doesn't have

4 that ability. They've got about 500 things

5 they're trying to do. So, I don't think they

6 can commit to a schedule of that.

7 And so, I mean, a better tack

8 would maybe be looking at a state level

9 regulation. I mean, first of all we'd have to

10 establish whether there's an opportunity. And

11 it's not clear to me that there's necessarily

12 an opportunity with circulators. In theory,

13 there is. We have to figure out how much, you

14 know, may be better, I mean, at least where

15 the cost effectiveness is, how much do these

16 things cost and how much energy savings.

17 I've done one with my own, you

18 know. I just looked at what the price of a

19 circulator is with a regular one and an ECM. 

20 So, I have in my own mind even if it's 2,000

21 hours, I know what the cost effectiveness of

22 it is just from a consumer standpoint. So, I
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1 have a pretty good sense that there's a good

2 cost effectiveness, but it's really analysis

3 that DOE or DOE consultants need to do in

4 order for us --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary

6 Fernstrom.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. I just want

8 to clarify that in order for us to do that

9 analysis, we do need to get that data from

10 manufacturers.

11 So, even if the decision is to put

12 them off -- or whenever the decision is made,

13 we have to get, you know, cooperation from the

14 manufacturers on the ones in yellow for that

15 to happen.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So, that's Alison

17 speaking. Now, Gary Fernstrom.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom for

19 the California IOUs.

20 On the subject of the circulators,

21 I'm not comfortable summarily ruling them out

22 until we see what information we can get.
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1 PG&E is testing circulator pumps. 

2 And when we get the opportunity, I have three

3 or four slides here showing you some pictures

4 of the NIST traceable test stand that we put

5 together in order to do that.

6 And probably in four to six weeks

7 we'll have the results. So, we'll know what

8 the energy efficiency improvement opportunity

9 is. And we'll know what we paid for these

10 products. So, we'll know the price.

11 There's probably still going to be

12 some uncertainty around the market depending

13 upon how soon the manufacturers can respond to

14 DOE's consultants and provide market data, but

15 we're not very far from fully understanding

16 this opportunity.

17 And I agree with Louis. If we

18 can't make it, yeah, let's put it off, but I'm

19 worried that DOE may not be able to

20 accommodate that. So, let's look first and

21 decide later.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, I would
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1 entertain -- it looks like Meg, and then I'm

2 coming back to you, Chuck.

3 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. So, I just

4 have -- this is Meg from NRDC. Just a

5 question to DOE.

6 I'm wondering, you know, for the

7 pumps within HI's original scope, DOE has to

8 go through its whole process of data

9 collection and analysis anyways.

10 I'm wondering how much

11 consideration of the products in yellow at

12 this point really affects sort of the

13 timeline, because you have to do that data

14 collection anyway.

15 MR. ADIN: Right.

16 MS. WALTNER: I don't quite see

17 how eliminating them at this point --

18 MR. ADIN: Right. So, the question

19 is, does the decision on whether to include or

20 exclude the things in yellow stop the ball

21 from rolling on the other things that we need

22 to analyze?
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1 Is that basically, I mean, I was

2 going through that same process in my head.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Or slow it down,

4 yeah.

5 MR. ADIN: Or slow it down. I

6 mean, it doesn't stop the show. I mean, we

7 still need to do that analysis anyway. You're

8 right. So, that will proceed.

9 I mean, it does give us other

10 things that we need to analyze, data we need

11 to compile. I mean, obviously if we just

12 eliminated them today, we would just, you

13 know, wouldn't worry about what we need to

14 analyze for the group to make that decision.

15 I'm not suggesting that we're

16 trying to avoid doing that. I just mean, you

17 know, it is one more thing we would need to

18 do, but, yeah, I mean, for the things that we

19 all agree or seem to agree that we're going to

20 include anyway, yeah, I mean, our intention

21 is, you know, to the extent we have data that

22 we can analyze, we're going to move forward.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman, do you

2 want to comment here?

3 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I had the same

4 question as Meg, is by asking for information

5 on the yellow and the green, are we slowing

6 down the process of getting some part done? 

7 But I think it may be that we reach a decision

8 point in March or April, maybe in March when

9 Gary has information, that the areas in yellow

10 for lack of a test procedure or other things,

11 have to be put off to a different phase.

12 And in order to be satisfied that

13 that phasing would work, you know, I'd ask

14 that DOE be clearer about whether or not it

15 could start a second proceedings to include

16 additional covered products in, you know, if

17 it is January of next year or whenever it is,

18 what that time frame might look like so that

19 we're not precluded from addressing these when

20 we've already collected some information to

21 tell us there's either a potential there or

22 there isn't. We just don't have time to get
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1 that done between now and September.

2 And so, I don't want to be sitting

3 here making the decision to exclude things and

4 then be restricted from coming back to look at

5 things we've collected a bunch of information

6 on for six years.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Got it.

8 MR. ECKMAN: That just doesn't make

9 any sense.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck is next in the

11 queue. Thanks for being patient, Chuck.

12 MR. POWERS: Flowserve builds a lot

13 of these products we're talking about in the

14 yellow. Just some basic parameters.

15 First off, Alison, I think you

16 guys did a good job, but we need to expand

17 these definitions.

18 Yesterday I told you about like

19 the one on the submersible and you corrected

20 it, but these when we just say axially split,

21 that's not good enough.

22 Now, when you go over to the right
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1 and you put BB1, good. But if you go to BB1,

2 there's eight words in that definition which

3 helps clarify it.

4 Now, going forward with that when

5 you look at the parameters of 200 horsepower,

6 when you look at the parameters of clean water

7 as we've defined it or we're going to define

8 it in all those attributes, a horizontally

9 split case multistage unit, okay, you're not

10 going to find very many made below 200

11 horsepower, you know, because I know the size

12 that are made and they start, they call it a

13 three-by-ten. So does Charlie.

14 And I'll tell you a three-by-ten,

15 the minimum number of stages is three stages. 

16 And that thing is right off the bat at 500

17 horse, all right?

18 So, I mean, I'm not trying to save

19 time. I don't want you to take my word for

20 it, because you're going to want to do your

21 thing, but I think we're going to be wasting

22 a lot of time that the EU and I'm not trying
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1 to invoke what they've done, they've studied

2 this. They've spent a lot of time on this and

3 there are pumps out there and all.

4 But when you look at the BB4s,

5 which is the segment of ring-type designs we

6 call it, when you look between the bearings,

7 radial split between bearings, not the axial

8 split, right, we're talking these are

9 engineered, these start to become, you know,

10 more, you know, and some of these you won't

11 find below 10-inch pumps. Okay. Now, to you

12 that may mean nothing, but that's well above

13 200 horse, alright?

14 I'm not, again, I'm not trying to

15 talk you into it, but you get the point. You

16 get into barrel pumps and you get into some of

17 these others. Yeah, they're pumping water,

18 but, you know, you're now talking 5,000

19 horsepower and a whole different ballgame.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So, maybe we need to

21 return to the definitions and maybe it gets

22 relevant to what Greg was saying earlier that
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1 non-custom and non-engineered products, that

2 that's what you were trying to cover in the

3 descriptor is the one to 200 clean water --

4 MR. POWERS: Right. And what I'm

5 trying to say is what Alison and the team are

6 trying to do is excellent. But if someone,

7 because last night I called a couple people

8 that said they gave her data. And I said,

9 what were the questions you got?

10 Well, they said axial. Nothing

11 else. Or they said this or we didn't know,

12 Chuck, 200 horsepower.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: That is not true,

14 just throwing it out there.

15 MR. POWERS: Because we also got

16 the request, okay. My point is yesterday you

17 said you were not very clear saying did they

18 get this --

19 MS. WILLIAMS: We did give them the

20 crosswalk to the HI nomenclature and they did

21 have the 200 horsepower limit.

22 MR. POWERS: Did they get this
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1 chart, the exclusion chart?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's keep

3 moving on here.

4 MR. POWERS: Did they get the full

5 parameters on the range and stuff?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. They did

7 not get the full parameters.

8 MR. POWERS: That's what I'm --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: But these shipments

10 are --

11 MR. POWERS: Alison, if you gave

12 them the full definition of each of these

13 other than one, and you gave them these, I'm

14 wondering if their looking at it would be

15 different.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: We're getting your

17 point.

18 MR. POWERS: Okay.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So, here's what I,

20 Mark you are next, and then I'm going to see

21 if I can summarize where I think we are.

22 MR. HANDZEL: And I also just want
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1 to, you know, piling on with Chuck to an

2 extent, but, Alison, I mean, we all spent a

3 heck of a lot of time doing your surveys this

4 summer.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: And we appreciate

6 that.

7 MR. HANDZEL: And I'm sorry, but

8 the data that you presented yesterday really

9 is not very good. It's not, you know. So,

10 what's being done to make sure the second time

11 that you're going to have some better data?

12 And obviously I just know my

13 company's data. I don't know anybody else's. 

14 I don't know who, if you sent the surveys to

15 more companies, you know, all those things. 

16 But, I mean, what you showed yesterday, I

17 don't think anybody here is comfortable making

18 a decision based on that data.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. So, obviously

20 there was a wide variety of what we got back

21 from the manufacturers. Some of which

22 provided much better information than others. 
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1 Everyone can judge where they fit on that

2 scale. And, you know, for a lot of these we

3 don't have a lot of manufacturers in a single

4 category.

5 We are having, if anybody has, you

6 know, friends in the pump industry that they

7 want to convince to take our survey, like that

8 would be great, you know. We need more

9 coverage in certain areas that we don't have.

10 Not everybody is willing to

11 participate in these surveys. So, you know,

12 and we've been over what the problems with the

13 shipments are and we didn't really get, I

14 mean, we have a few suggestions to follow up

15 on to improve the shipments.

16 I will say that, I mean, the

17 second survey isn't really going to help our

18 shipments estimate that much. It might refine

19 it with some of the parameters and things.

20 It's, you know, focused on getting

21 some of the data that was requested, including

22 more desegregation by horsepower, including
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1 distribution by models that we need to do the

2 LCC.

3 So, it isn't going to fix some of

4 these shipment estimate problems. I

5 definitely acknowledge that.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

7 MR. HUBER: I want to address two

8 things. One is these surveys are great and

9 we're trying to comply with them.

10 Let me assure you that I don't

11 want anybody to think that this industry is

12 trying to stonewall here. The problem is we

13 don't track this data this way.

14 So, what's going to take us so

15 long to do is we've got to send somebody back

16 into our, the archives, say, for last year and

17 start digging through and see for this type of

18 pump, what horsepower did we sell that in, you

19 know? Where does it fall in the range they

20 want it all broken up?

21 This takes a tremendous effort and

22 a lot of time. And that's the reason I
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1 proposed what I proposed, because there is as

2 tremendous amount of information available on

3 the HI-proposed models.

4 And I think after some discussion

5 with some of the NGOs, not all of them, and

6 they need to caucus on this, that if -- I

7 believe if DOE will come and say that our

8 proposal for a phased-in approach is okay with

9 them and they're willing to man that for

10 starting next year for all the other items

11 here that we can't seem to get to, then I

12 think we can reach an agreement and get moving

13 with this thing and get something

14 accomplished.

15 But it's up to DOE, I think a lot

16 of it's up to the Department whether they can

17 actually do that or not.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.

19 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

20 Cappellino, ITT.

21 I just wanted to make a point on

22 the difference between green and yellow from
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1 a market standpoint.

2 The items that are listed in

3 yellow, let's set circulators aside for a

4 minute. They tend to be a segment of the

5 market where efficiency is highly valued.

6 We compete intensely in the

7 marketplace with that kind of product where,

8 you know, a point of efficiency or half a

9 point of efficiency is something that's, you

10 know, it's battled out in the marketplace.

11 So, the point I'm trying to make

12 is I'm not saying we shouldn't address the

13 ones in yellow, but I just want everybody to

14 be aware that market forces have done a lot of

15 shaping already from an efficiency standpoint

16 for competitors to be able to offer and

17 present the best efficiency they can.

18 When you get into some of the

19 green areas, a basic water pump and such, you

20 know, those competitive forces aren't

21 necessarily as strong. The power levels are

22 lower and such. So, there may be some more
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1 opportunity there.

2 So, I just wanted to kind of throw

3 that on the table for everybody to understand

4 that different segments of the market, the

5 efficiencies have been more or less formed by

6 competitive forces. So, just a general

7 comment and statement.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. The final

9 comment, Steve.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm going to ask a

11 question maybe a different way with -- and

12 I'll just kind of focus on the ones in green. 

13 I believe that this represents what the

14 manufacturers have agreed to cover so far.

15 So, my question, I'm going to kind

16 of high level, is for the items in green even

17 with knowledge of possibly very low shipments

18 and possibly lower energy efficiency

19 potential, does the group agree to go forward

20 with them in this process?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: By the voting we've

22 done so far, the pump types in green and
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1 yellow are presently considered in scope.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I just

3 wanted to take it one step further. Just for

4 the ones in green if there is low shipments

5 and if there is low potential, do we still go

6 forward? Because that would also because of

7 our economies of scale and because of what's

8 happening in Europe, we go forward anyway

9 because there would still be some progress to

10 be made with those categories.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So, being as how

12 it's just about time to go to lunch, you've

13 given me a perfect opportunity to summarize.

14 Several individuals in the room --

15 oh, Lucas, go ahead.

16 MR. ADIN: Just one rather

17 important point I wanted to make before we go

18 to lunch since it's been asked about a couple

19 of times and it's the feasibility of doing

20 some kind of phased approach or, you know,

21 essentially how we would deal with some of

22 these things we might potentially exclude as
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1 part of this proceeding.

2 And at least from a legal

3 standpoint, there's no problem with that, we

4 can do that. We're comfortable with that.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: You can make a

6 commitment that way.

7 MR. ADIN: Well, we can do it,

8 right. We can do a phased approach or we can

9 do a, you know, a second rulemaking on these

10 other products. And we can do it at any time.

11 We can finish this one and

12 immediately go into that one. It's really

13 just a question of the practical aspects, the

14 feasibility for the program and our resources. 

15 And that's something that we'd have to look at

16 more carefully and before we can make some

17 kind of commitment, you know, as to exactly

18 what we could do, timing, all that stuff.

19 We wouldn't want to commit to

20 anything without, you know, realistically

21 being able to do it, obviously. So, we want

22 to take a look at that, talk amongst our group
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1 and see what we can actually do.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Al, follow-on

3 question.

4 MR. HUBER: Just a question for

5 Lucas quickly to consider. How long do you

6 think it will be before you'll be able to give

7 this group an answer to that question?

8 MR. ADIN: I mean, I'd love to be

9 able to give you that answer today, but I

10 don't, I'm not sure. I think we might have to

11 look at kind of the broader program, what our

12 priorities are in the next year or so and see.

13 So, I suspect that we could

14 probably do it before the next meeting. I

15 don't think we'd have to wait until then.

16 MR. HUBER: Well, it's kind of,

17 it's very important to the NGOs. And I know

18 to Gary and to Tom and Louis, they don't want

19 to agree to just the green if they know it's

20 ten years from now before we start on the

21 second one.

22 MR. ADIN: Right.
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1 MR. HUBER: And I don't blame them

2 for that. And so, that's the reason this is

3 really important to know as soon as possible.

4 And if we could narrow the scope

5 down to start moving, then we could really

6 make some progress and make this date.

7 MR. ADIN: And I understand that

8 completely. And if I could provide you my

9 personal assurance right now that we could do

10 that, I would.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. ADIN: But my bosses have

13 something to say about it, too. And so, at

14 the very least I'm going to talk to some folks

15 over lunch and see what we can do, like what

16 kind of questions we need to answer for

17 ourselves before we can make any kind of

18 commitment about that.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Final, final comment

20 from Gary.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

22 IOUs.
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1 Al, I think this whole thing is

2 going to converge in a few weeks. We'll have

3 some test results. We'll know what DOE is

4 able to do or not do. We'll probably have a

5 little more refined market data. I think we

6 can come to a resolution pretty soon.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, to summarize and

8 go to lunch, wanted to make sure that we

9 provided in this last discussion segment an

10 opportunity for the industry members to float

11 their proposals particularly about all the

12 items, the pump types in yellow, and whether

13 other members of the Committee, or I should

14 say the working group, would be willing to go

15 with a phased schedule as Al and others have

16 described.

17 They have come back, members of

18 the energy efficiency caucus have come back

19 and said again as they have previously, they

20 want to see the data and that all of these

21 items in yellow are still wanting to be

22 considered.
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1 And though, as Gary just said,

2 hopefully in the not too distant future when

3 the surveys are completed when the analysis

4 continues, that we can move towards deciding

5 what to do with the items in yellow and also

6 the items in green.

7 Okay. So, that's where we are. 

8 It's now 12:25. We've really made a lot of

9 progress today and yesterday. We've got when

10 we return from lunch at 1:25, we only have a

11 little more than an hour.

12 I'd like to return to discussion

13 of possible definitions of covered product,

14 the clean water definition, general

15 description of pump components and then

16 finally agenda setting for the next meeting.

17 Okay. So, think about those

18 things over lunch. If you wish to meet with

19 your caucus, please do so. We'll resume here

20 at 1:25 right here in this room.

21 So, thanks for a really good

22 morning. We've covered a lot of ground.
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1 (Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m. the

2 meeting went off the record for a lunch break

3 and went back on the record at 1:39 p.m.)

4 MR . POWERS: The only thing is

5 it's kind of fine but just kind of okay, but

6 two things. One, back here there's a chart

7 which we probably won't be able to get to

8 today which talks about the agriculture of

9 farming, and I have some comments I want to

10 make towards this. But it shows there, and

11 it's just one category, one area, that the

12 natural gas or the engine, whatever, is very,

13 very small percentages of the overall

14 electric, right? That's in one market, one

15 area, number one. 

16 And number two, if we are going to

17 go with engines and all, now we've got to

18 start, because I don't think DOE has a

19 classification on their efficiency or their

20 coding or whatever, and that's fine, but we're

21 going to expect somebody to come to us and say

22 here's what the power should be for that if
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1 we're going to hook it up to a pump, right? 

2 MR. ADIN: Right. So understand

3 that simply defining it this way doesn't

4 necessarily obligate us to write a standard

5 specifically for pumps that use that kind of

6 driver. It means that it could mean that and

7 we could write standards for those types of

8 pumps, whether in this proceeding or another

9 one. It just means that term "driver,"

10 generally, could be any of those things. 

11 MR. POWERS: Okay. And, Lucas,

12 this is my opinion. Once you put an engine on

13 something, the third item of VFD is done. 

14 I've never seen a VFD and an engine and a

15 pump, to a certain degree.

16 MR. ADIN: Well, understood. 

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

18 EEI. That's fine, but there can be other

19 controls or other engine technology that makes

20 the engine more efficient. I mean, I'm not,

21 I'm not trying to restrict it. You see some

22 of these, on the slide there's a significant
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1 number that are using diesel in certain of the

2 categories. They are market competitors, and

3 so there might be technologies for that

4 engine. It's not a VFD, obviously, but it

5 could be some other, I'll say, diesel engine

6 or gas engine technology that makes that

7 diesel or gas engine more efficient to save

8 energy, which is what the rulemaking is all

9 about. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: You've been

11 consistent in your advocacy for fuel

12 neutrality. Mark? 

13 MR. HANDZEL: I was just going to

14 say just kind of a semantics thing, but where

15 it says mechanical equipment is equipment, I

16 would just say mechanical equipment is a

17 component or some word like that. Just not

18 repeat equipment. Just a nit. Or any

19 component because you might have a few. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good. What

21 about controls? Do you like controls? The

22 driver. Yes? It's good, okay. So then we're
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1 not going to try to vote on it or anything

2 today, but just a notation we'll make for the

3 record that the working group has looked at

4 this and, at this point, they like it.

5 So now let's talk about

6 exclusions. 

7 MR. HANDZEL: Just a question. 

8 I'm sorry.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Please do, Mark. 

10 MR. HANDZEL: Will we get copies

11 of this? Because, obviously, we've got a

12 meeting coming up with all of the members, and

13 I think some of this stuff we're going to want

14 to report on. 

15 MR. ADIN: Yes, we'll post this,

16 and I think we have a slide or can make a

17 slide that will capture that, as well. We

18 want to make sure all of these diagrams and

19 notes we've been taking are all available, so

20 yes. So, yes, this will be included on the

21 SharePoint, and I expect it will be included

22 in the docket, too. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And then, as we

2 were talking about the scope for the

3 negotiation, the colorful, green/yellow/red

4 slide, you were updating these exclusions, if

5 I'm not mistaken. 

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I was updating

7 the exclusions on the green/red slide, and on

8 the exclusions slide I also documented what

9 was agreed upon in the vote. Is that what

10 you're getting at? 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes, yes. So

12 it may be hard for you to read it, but on the

13 left-hand side it says okay. Those items,

14 those one, two, three, four, five, six -- are

15 there seven of them? Eight of them, I think,

16 have been excluded. Eight. And then you also

17 noted Meg's comment and others about some of

18 these needing further definition and the ones

19 at the bottom to be further discussed and

20 determined. You guys okay? Al Huber?

21 MR. HUBER: Chuck was concerned

22 that now in the fire that now there's a
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1 requirement for the UL/FM bill. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So is it, is it --

3 Lucas made the point earlier about a

4 certification, if the term "certified" was

5 sufficient.

6 MR. ADIN: No. Doug, I'm sorry,

7 just to correct. My question wasn't so much

8 about the, I mean, I did ask about that, but

9 I understand that part of it. My question was

10 actually does it matter whether you specify

11 who does the certification. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I

13 meant. 

14 MR. HUBER: It doesn't really

15 matter, but there's only two that do. And I

16 think, one thing for Chuck, this does not

17 preclude somebody from buying your regular

18 pump and putting it in fire pump service, if

19 that's what they want to do. So I don't think

20 this hurts you any. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 

22 MR. POWERS: I think, in simple
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1 terms, there's a spec called NFPA 20. They

2 don't certify anything. It's a spec. And on

3 that same line, you say it's certified to

4 NFPA, and nobody is going to certify anything

5 to NFPA 20. You're going to build a product

6 to API 610, to NFPA 20. You're going to get

7 it certified under UL/FM label. 

8 MR. HUBER: Yes, but what they're

9 certifying is that the pump actually meets

10 NFPA 20, Chuck. That's what they're

11 certifying to. But he's got a commercial

12 issue, and I'm going to try to help him with

13 this real quickly. Just because it says it

14 here and they're not going to be regulated, it

15 doesn't mean that your pump that you've been

16 selling into that market for certain customers

17 who don't care about having a certification,

18 nothing in this regulation will prevent you

19 from doing that. So it has no impact on you.

20 MR. POWERS: Well, I won't be

21 voting on this one because the way it's

22 written is incorrect.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: It was already

2 voted on. 

3 MR. HUBER: Yes, it was already

4 voted on.

5 MR. POWERS: We voted on --

6 there's two at the bottom we didn't vote on,

7 right? 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. We didn't

9 vote on the two at the bottom. We voted on

10 the others.

11 MR. HUBER: But we voted on -- 

12 MR. POWERS: But we also said we

13 could make changes to exclusions or add to it,

14 right? 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes. Then

16 we'll take another vote. Lucas? 

17 MR. ADIN: Let me just make a --

18 maybe it's more of a question really, but we

19 voted on exclusions generally, these

20 categories, but we didn't vote on definitions

21 or anything for them, like to specify exactly

22 what they are I don't think. 
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1 MR. HUBER: Well, I think, I think

2 -- Al Huber, Patterson. I believe the NGOs

3 believe that that's up there, and they're not

4 going to be comfortable voting for it unless

5 it is. I don't want to put words in their

6 mouth -- 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That was the

8 nature of the discussion that I recall. 

9 Right. 

10 MR. HUBER: Yes. And then I

11 re-explained exactly what all that meant. 

12 MR. ADIN: Well, I remember that

13 being the case for some of them. I just want

14 to make sure it's clear which ones. So we've

15 got that up there, and that's part of how

16 we're defining what fire pumps are for these

17 purposes. 

18 MR. HUBER: For fire pump, I think

19 that's fine. What you've got up there is

20 fine. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So

22 maybe the two of you can talk a little bit
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1 about this. Yes, okay. And noting, as Alison

2 has at the bottom, Marine, Navy, nuclear

3 pumps, and sanitary pumps are still an issue

4 to be determined. Then parameters. HI

5 standards parameters proposal. So we

6 clarified as we were finishing this discussion

7 on parameters this applies, as reflected in

8 the top line, for HI-recommended pumps. 

9 That's the kind of singular overview here. 

10 And then we added pumps designed for clean

11 water and these other clarifications. Can you

12 read them? Is the font large enough? 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug? 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi, Steve

16 Rosenstock, EEI. In the first one, you know,

17 based on our discussion of the definition, I

18 don't know if you want to add in seawater. 

19 And I know it says including glycol, but, just

20 to be on the comprehensive side, is including

21 antifreeze additives. That's the way the

22 definition seems to work. It's not just
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1 glycol. It could be some other product that

2 provides the same antifreeze protection.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay. 

4 MR. ADIN: Actually, I have a

5 question about that one. It says that the

6 additives should not be counted, but is there,

7 like, a particular, like, limit on how much

8 can be in there? Does it matter? 

9 MR. HUBER: I don't think they

10 address that. 

11 MR. ADIN: Okay. Is there any

12 reason to that you know of?

13 MR. HUBER: No.

14 MR. ADIN: No.

15 MR. HUBER: No, we're all

16 comfortable with it. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And there

18 was a big discussion on two and four -- yes? 

19 I'm sorry, Tom. Go ahead. 

20 MR. ECKMAN: This is for the pump

21 manufacturers. Given that the additive is

22 going to potentially change the viscosity of
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1 the fluid, is that going to have an effect on

2 the test? I mean, can you, you know, game it

3 or get a misread or something like that? I

4 just don't know. I'm asking you guys. 

5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

6 As she put up on the board earlier, she put a

7 definition of clean water and then she put a

8 definition of clean water as tests. All tests

9 with all pumps across the world in everybody's

10 lab is clean, clear water no higher than 85

11 degrees. That's it. That's the worldwide

12 standard. 

13 MS. WIDDER: This is Sarah from

14 PNNL. I think maybe you referred to the

15 testing clean water characteristic as, like,

16 testing, test fluid characteristics or test

17 fluid conditions -- 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah, you're going

19 in and out. Stand up. Move over here.

20 MS. WIDDER: Oh, it's on. Okay. 

21 Anyway, so just to clear it up so we're not

22 defining two different types of clean water
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1 because I can see how that can be confusing

2 and that this definition of clean water

3 actually doesn't have anything to do with

4 testing. Right.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good. So I

6 think we had adequate discussion on virtually

7 all of these. Additional comments on any of

8 these? Nothing additional? Okay. So we're

9 still waiting for our continuing scrutiny and

10 discussion on the scope for this negotiation

11 and how that fits with the possible definition

12 of a covered product. So we're not going to

13 do anything on this now, but I'm, in my own

14 mind, I'm going to think that, while

15 definition of a covered product is unsettled,

16 a general description of the pump component is

17 pretty darn settled, exclusion is pretty darn

18 settled, and parameters are pretty darn

19 settled. Go ahead, Mark. 

20 MR. HANDZEL: Just looking at the

21 bottom of this slide -- Mark Handzel from

22 Xylem -- it mentions HI will accept clean
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1 water definition. So we have that now. Do we

2 need to leave those notes in there, Alison? 

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I guess --

4 have we agreed to this definition? 

5 MR. HANDZEL: No, but I'm just

6 saying HI no longer needs to provide it

7 because you -- 

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, oh, oh, oh. 

9 MR. HANDZEL: So I'm not saying we

10 agreed. I'm just saying . . . 

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. That was the

12 only topic on which you were going to provide

13 clarification? 

14 MR. HUBER: I'm not pushing to

15 have to vote on everything, but some of these

16 things, like the definition of clean water,

17 why you couldn't vote and get that out of the

18 way. I mean -- 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd be happy to do

20 it. Shall we do that? Yes? Joanna? 

21 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I was

22 just curious whether DOE has kind of evaluated
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1 the definition or has any comments or . . . 

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Of clean water? 

3 MS. MAUER: Yes. 

4 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, this is

5 Alison. What we have done is look at it to

6 see what it would encompass, and it would

7 encompass, we are primarily interested if it

8 got to seawater and that type of thing, and it

9 does. I wouldn't say we've really evaluated

10 it in any other way. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: And I was looking

12 over at Sarah because of the test procedure,

13 test fluids, or whatever you call it,

14 implications.

15 MR. ADIN: This isn't a test

16 procedure issue. 

17 MS. WIDDER: This is Sarah. I

18 think, yes, this is not the test fluid. This

19 has nothing to do with the test procedure. I

20 think, in general, this is just trying to

21 categorize pumps that, in the field, are

22 intended to pump fluids, like clean water. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

3 EEI. Do you want to add that as a note to

4 this slide for clarification? 

5 MS. WILLIAMS: But there's a

6 separate definition for testing. 

7 MR. ADIN: So, I mean, just to

8 expand a little bit on what Alison said. I

9 mean, there was some discussion in the

10 framework document about this subject. I

11 mean, seawater is part of it, gray water is

12 part of it. I mean, it's beyond just potable

13 water or purely clean water. I mean, it

14 encompasses a pretty broad range of things, so

15 I don't know that we have specific concerns

16 about how this might constrain coverage purely

17 based on this definition. I don't know if

18 that answers your question. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?

20 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I don't

21 have any specific concerns. I think I was

22 thinking more just, perhaps from an
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1 enforcement perspective, is it, you know,

2 crystal clear which physical pumps meet that

3 definition? 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So are you

5 comfortable voting on clean water, the

6 definition? 

7 MS. WIDDER: I think we should

8 respond to Joanna's question. 

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so this is

10 Alison. So in the framework document, we had

11 proposed defining clean water pumps instead of

12 clean water, and the outcome of the framework

13 meeting was essentially that the manufacturers

14 did not feel as though we could define clean

15 water pumps using physical characteristics,

16 and they wanted to go with the defined clean

17 water approach and make sure there's

18 exclusions to get at any sort of wiggle room

19 that there would be with only defining clean

20 water. So that was the last of the discussion

21 that happened on this topic so . . . 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?
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1 MR. POWERS: I think, and maybe

2 I'm wrong, we're not trying to define the pump

3 type up here. What is being pumped? That's

4 what it's all about. We're trying to say is

5 it seawater, is it clean water, is it

6 whatever, not that it's oil and gas or other

7 things. We're trying to say -- you know what

8 I mean? You're not trying to define the pump

9 there, you're trying to say what is the

10 definition of what you are pumping. And then

11 you have the parameters, I believe, of a pump

12 on this other one saying within these

13 parameters and then you go from there. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna? 

15 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. So, you

16 know, if DOE is to go and take a pump off of

17 a shelf, would they be able to tell whether

18 it's a pump for pumping clean water, I guess,

19 is essentially the question I'm asking.

20 MS. WIDDER: Right. And to back

21 up what Joanna -- this is Sarah from PNNL --

22 to back up the point Joanna is making, there's
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1 actually no point in defining clean water,

2 other than the test fluid. There's no point

3 in defining this definition if we're not going

4 to use it for the purposes of determining

5 coverage of pumps. So if you can't use this

6 definition of clean water to say this is a

7 pump that's designed for pumping clean water

8 and this is a pump that's designed for pumping

9 oil and gas, then we don't need to have this

10 definition at all. 

11 MR. POWERS: But you do because

12 there is variances between those products. 

13 There is certain pumps you can go up to and

14 see that it is definitely a sewage pump when

15 you take it apart and look at the internals or

16 whatever, and there's some that are not. But

17 I'm going to make it simple for you. You

18 start and put parameters of 200, you know,

19 horsepower and things like that for that same

20 purpose, also. You can't go up to a pump and

21 necessarily, right off the second, look and

22 say, oh, that's a 300 horse pump or that's a
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1 200 horse pump. 

2 MS. WIDDER: Right. No, I think

3 we're on the same page there. We were just

4 saying that this is, just like 200 horsepower,

5 a criteria that we're using to shrink down

6 from the universe of pumps to the pumps that

7 we might want to consider for coverage in this

8 meeting cycle. And it's going to be one of

9 those criteria, and what Joanna is asking is

10 is that a quantifiable or objective enough

11 criteria that us non-pump manufacturers can go

12 out and, you know, is it listed in

13 manufacturer literature what the pump is

14 designed -- is there a way that people who

15 aren't as familiar with the products can

16 effectively use that as a criteria? Does that

17 make sense? 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, it looks like

19 you're tracking this. 

20 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes. Greg Towsley,

21 Grundfos. If you look at this as a

22 characteristic in selecting a pump, if you go
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1 outside the parameters, either with the solid

2 sides or the maximum dissolved solid content

3 or even the temperature, then your pump design

4 starts changing and you start getting into

5 what we just excluded with solids handling or

6 API or something else. So I guess I see this

7 as a characteristic of the pump design that

8 falls within the qualification of the

9 parameters of 200 horsepower, of those kind of

10 things. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

12 MR. ADIN: This is actually kind

13 of returning to a principle that we had kind

14 of explored earlier, I think. It might have

15 been yesterday. But, in one sense, you could

16 define these pumps as being designed for clean

17 water. I mean, that's one approach you could

18 take. But the other is to define the

19 characteristics, like it has these

20 characteristics which are meant for pumping

21 clean water and really nothing else. Like,

22 they would need these other things. Is that
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1 kind of the distinction that we're looking at

2 making? Because, I mean, you could say it's

3 just for clean water, but I think that might

4 be kind of what we're struggling with a little

5 bit here is whether use of the term clean

6 water alone serves the purpose that we're

7 trying to get to. 

8 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Just to expand

9 on that, what I was saying, we may not need

10 this definition if we're not going to use it

11 as a criteria. To your point about there's

12 different characteristics for pumps that are

13 designed for pumping solids, if we could

14 instead define those characteristics, like

15 specific minimum clearances that, you know, if

16 a pump has a larger clearance within -- yes,

17 no, I recognize. I'm just giving examples of

18 how this might work. So we could not define

19 clean water and we could instead define these

20 measurable quantities that we could use to

21 define the types of pumps we're attempting to

22 cover. And the reason that that's helpful is,
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1 back to Joanna's question, is there, like, a

2 label on these pumps that say for clean water? 

3 Because, otherwise, it's very difficult to

4 look at two pumps and know which one is

5 covered and which one is not if we are not

6 you, if we are not manufacturers ourselves.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? Louis,

8 please. 

9 MR. STARR: So I assume, if you're

10 looking at the pump, you have the pump

11 submittal probably or submittal data or no? 

12 Because then that might be on there, depending

13 on what kind of pump, but a lot of times it

14 will specify the density of fluid, which then

15 tells you whether it's water or not. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I see Al is ready

17 to respond. Al? 

18 MR. HUBER: I think one of the

19 problems is is that trying to define these

20 little features that you're talking about,

21 we've got a multitude, now we have five times,

22 and then we've got some in yellow that are
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1 completely different types. And so these

2 tolerances and these high areas and all the

3 rest of this change. So then you're going to

4 get so complicated that you've got to define

5 all these little things to try to say it's

6 really clean water. Now, if we can't figure

7 out in this room what we're trying to pump,

8 how in the world are we ever going to write a

9 standard or a regulation? 

10 I'm serious now. In all

11 seriousness, we said we thought, when you put

12 out your framework document, you intended

13 pumps that pump clean water, so now here's the

14 definition for it. I assume that's what we're

15 trying to do. I'm getting real frustrated

16 with this continual over and over nitpicking,

17 worrying about somebody cheating. The only

18 people who are going to get hurt are the pump

19 manufacturers if somebody cheats, and, believe

20 me, we're going to be watching it and we're

21 going to be trying to make it as tight as we

22 can. 
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So we understand

2 the problem, and I don't think anyone

3 disagrees that we want to cover clean water

4 pumps only. We're just pointing out that DOE

5 has to be able to tell from what we define

6 whether the clean water pump and what is not. 

7 And so the path we've been going down is to

8 define clean water, which may or may not be

9 objectively measurable. So if we think a pump

10 is clean water, and it doesn't fall into any

11 of the exclusions, DOE would have to assume

12 that it was a clean water pump, I think, is

13 the path that has been gone down. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, you want to

15 keep going?

16 MR. HUBER: Yes, I think what I

17 want to tell you is, in the HI proposal, all

18 of those are clean water pumps. Everybody in

19 this room will agree to that. And I think

20 that, without exception, under this definition

21 that's up there that everything in yellow is

22 also a clean water pump. 
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1 Now, let me finish. Axial/mixed

2 flow can be both solids and clean water. 

3 Positive displacement can be clean water, but

4 it also can be something else. 

5 MR. POWERS: But I also think, you

6 know, trying to get this to a point we get

7 something done. And to Al's point, we're not

8 trying to say we list every pump on the shelf

9 and you go buy it. One example I can give

10 you, which needs to be corrected because it's

11 on that other slide, we talk about four and

12 six-inch submersibles. They're individual

13 bowls, right? They're sitting somewhere. 

14 That same bowl can be put together with a

15 motor and used on condensate extraction below

16 the city of Chicago in a gas well, cast iron,

17 whatever. But it doesn't say on the shelf

18 "I'm a water pump." It's a bowl sitting there

19 going into a natural gas, something, whatever.

20 So you have several parameters. 

21 Not one thing is going to do it. But when you

22 tie the type of fluid, you tie the other
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1 parameters, which is good, right? And you're

2 tying exclusions, people, you know, again,

3 reading all three, you're going to nail down

4 and say, you know, he may say, oh, oh, that's

5 not a water pump. Okay, hold on. Is it

6 pumping up to 200 horse? Yes. Is it, you

7 know, take a sample of -- pretty soon, if he's

8 lying or playing games, it's going to be

9 pretty -- 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Final comment,

11 Mark. 

12 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

13 Xylem. So, Sarah, your question: how do we

14 know if it's a clean water pump? 

15 MS. WIDDER: You guys know.

16 MR. HANDZEL: In the industry, the

17 only time we assume it's a solids-handling

18 pump is when the submittal that Louis

19 referenced says solids-handling and lists the

20 size. Everything else is clean water pumps. 

21 I mean, for the most part, I think that's our,

22 in a general statement, I think that's, you
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1 know, kind of the way that we did. When we

2 specify that the pump can handle solids, it's

3 on the submittal and we say it can do it. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, go ahead. 

5 MR. HUBER: Well, I know you're

6 saying you can't go look, but I can tell you

7 that the people who are in the marketplace,

8 they know. We have no confusion. Nobody ever

9 comes to us and says is this a clean water

10 pump or is that a sewage pump? No, they don't

11 do that because we're using the product. They

12 know. Believe me, they know, and it is not a

13 problem. So if you're worried about the

14 marketplace, and that's what it sounded like

15 you were worried about -- well, no, you said

16 -- 

17 MS. WILLIAMS: No, we're worried

18 about verification and enforcement is all. So

19 I think that we understand, totally agree. I

20 think what Chuck has laid out is, you know,

21 the process you would step through. 

22 MR. HANDZEL: And with that
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1 process, I've got to speak up here, with that

2 process keep adding notes. We have clean

3 water paragraph, period, okay? You have

4 parameters, period. Pretty soon, it's going

5 to turn into an encyclopedia, and it's going

6 to be confusion by default, right? 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: But the

8 counterpoint is that, in previous discussion

9 in this very same meeting, you and others have

10 talked about the need for specificity in

11 definitions and all of that. So you can see

12 why we're seeking clarity here. I'm going to

13 move on. Steve, go ahead. Final comment. 

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

15 EEI. Just a quick follow up to your fourth

16 bullet, is this a measurable characteristic? 

17 Measurable by who?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Never mind. Ignore

19 it. 

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So let's

22 move on. Yes, Laura? 
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1 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Sorry. Just

2 one, one comment for this. So you would

3 typically see ethylene glycol or propylene

4 glycol for use in building systems, right? 

5 Take negative 10 degrees Celsius will get you

6 25 percent by volume concentration for

7 ethylene or propylene glycol. Typically, you

8 would use an industrially-inhibited product. 

9 The 50 kilograms per meter cubed solid content

10 is fine because you're not going to take into

11 account anything to get you to that 25 percent

12 and only looking at what the solids are

13 dissolved in that fluid after the 25 percent. 

14 So, really, what gets you from 25 percent to

15 35 percent, 30 or 35 percent, like taxes. So

16 the government is going to tax you at this

17 rate for this amount of salary that you make

18 and then a higher rate for that, so you're not

19 even looking at what's below. You have 15

20 kilograms per meter cubed to get you from

21 about 10 percent of glycol at 40 degrees

22 Celsius, so you're really fine with this
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1 definition. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

3 We're moving on now. We have 12 minutes left,

4 and then we're going to adjourn. I wanted to

5 ask you to focus on the final item on the

6 agenda here, which is agenda setting for the

7 next meeting. 

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug, you didn't

9 want to vote on -- Steve Rosenstock -- 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: No, no, I don't. 

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, all right. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: No, we're going to

13 let this settle a little bit is what we're

14 going to do, although I thought the last

15 conversation was very useful and it was very

16 helpful to hear from the consultant contractor

17 team for us to recall why this was an issue in

18 the framework meeting because I had forgotten

19 all of that.

20 Agenda setting for the next

21 meeting. Comments on that? We will continue

22 to strive to define clearly the scope for this
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1 negotiation. We're hopeful that the

2 interviews, not the interview guides, the data

3 requests that have been sent to manufacturers,

4 that those will come back and they will be,

5 they'll be compiled, at least some of them,

6 maybe many of them, and there will be some

7 analysis done, so that will be more data. 

8 What else? Steve Rosenstock?

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

10 EEI. Review data provided by interested

11 parties, such as California IOUs, and review

12 revised shipment estimates.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, a revision of

14 the existing table. Yes. And then, at that

15 point also, I would like at our next meeting

16 to confirm, vote on, and agree on these items

17 that we've been discussing, other than the

18 possible definition of covered product, that

19 are linked to the scope, the actual

20 description of scope. So any other things? 

21 Go ahead, Gary? Tom, please. 

22 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest
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1 Power. I think we'd like to hear from DOE,

2 the results of Lucas' conversations with John

3 about feasibility of handling a follow on. 

4 MR. ADIN: So we have, obviously,

5 some homework to do, some legal questions to

6 answer, some internal program policy things to

7 figure out, and we will try and provide

8 answers to those really as soon as we can,

9 certainly before the next meeting. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Tom? 

11 MR. ECKMAN: I think that would

12 aid and abet our discussions to getting to

13 closure on scope and how we march down the

14 field. It would be real beneficial. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that's a

16 lot of the list right there. 

17 MR. ADIN: Well, and the other

18 thing, and I think I mentioned it earlier, 

19 is, since we probably will be revisiting these

20 issues in metric and test procedure in the

21 next meeting, DOE was going to try to come up

22 with a more specific conceptual explanation of
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1 how we think this could work. We gave some

2 general ideas today, but we'll try and be a

3 lot more specific about these different

4 elements and bring up some of the questions

5 that we've encountered as we've looked at

6 these things, you know, in principle, how

7 would these things work, what are the

8 different elements that would have to be

9 considered, you know, in the test, and present

10 options, where appropriate, that kind of

11 thing, so that we can really have a more

12 substantive debate than we had this time. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I was unclear on

14 one point. Has DOE confirmed that you need to

15 have this single metric? Is that a matter of

16 convenience? Is it a matter of statute? Is

17 it something that requires some -- 

18 MS. KOHL: We had understood that

19 the metric discussion, and this was when the

20 lawyers were out of the room discussing these

21 other issues, but the group had progressed

22 with the metrics discussion such that we
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1 didn't necessarily need to provide analysis

2 for that right now. We've got enough on our

3 plate. But we thought that significant

4 progress had been made on the metrics concept

5 earlier today. 

6 MR. HANDZEL: Doug, just a

7 comment. I mean, from the pump manufacturers'

8 perspective, that is not true, Betsy. We

9 definitely still believe that we need MEI and

10 EEI, and the only way that we can think of

11 getting around it is that if we made MEI a

12 component of EEI, you know. But it still, you

13 know, MEI is the one that drives what we do. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 

15 MR. ADIN: Well, we'll talk about

16 that in more detail next time. I actually

17 don't personally think we're that far from

18 doing what it is that you want to do. I just

19 think we haven't really explained it quite the

20 right way. So I think we actually do want the

21 same thing. 

22 MR. HANDZEL: And I think we can
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1 talk about that more at our meeting coming up

2 and maybe try to give you some more guidance

3 around it from our perspective, so we'll see

4 if we can help. 

5 MR. ADIN: Yes. And to the

6 extent, you know, you have discussions that

7 result in some kind of proposal on your side

8 that you'd like to discuss or anything else

9 specific that would be worthwhile considering

10 for the group, you know, that's -- 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: And I also wanted

12 to add I presume that, in your discussions,

13 industry discussions, if you had questions,

14 comments, queries, I imagine you could access

15 the contractor team, right? Yes, okay. 

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Uh-oh. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chuck? 

18 MR. POWERS: Greg was going to

19 take on that detailed conversion of the

20 definitions to help us. Remember we went -- 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

22 MR. POWERS: -- on categories and
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1 stuff like that and how they were defining in

2 EU just to help some of the -- and then what

3 about Al brought up, I think it was yesterday,

4 about trying, whether it was trying to use HI

5 categories for products on the slide as best

6 as possible.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Nomenclature

8 wherever possible. We can do that, right? 

9 MR. POWERS: If possible. I mean,

10 if you don't want to. I'm just saying it may

11 help. And then the other one was slide seven. 

12 I might be confused, but on slide seven it

13 shows, and I just wanted clarification for

14 next time -- 

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Is it -- which

16 slide are you looking for? This one? Okay. 

17 MR. POWERS: It says six or

18 smaller. I thought we said four or six

19 because if you go to the very next slide,

20 Alison -- 

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, it was four to

22 six at some point, and then I believe the end
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1 of the discussion was six or smaller. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that's

3 where we left it. 

4 MS. WILLIAMS: But it hasn't been

5 -- 

6 MR. POWERS: Go the next slide. 

7 Right there it actually says four to six, yes. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: My notes reflect

9 that we left it at six or smaller. We can

10 re-engage that later.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: This one has not

12 been okayed, so it's still on the table. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So, finally, there

14 are two small items. One was that I promised

15 that we would revisit the start times and end

16 times for these dates and see whether they're

17 working for most people in the room, everybody

18 in the room. Do you want to stick with

19 starting at 10 on day one and ending at 6 on

20 day one and commencing at 8 a.m. on day two

21 and ending at 3 on day two? I think that

22 leaving, ending at 3, that's a given because
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1 people need to book out of here and get to the

2 airport. Go ahead, Mark. 

3 MR. HANDZEL: So from the

4 manufacturers' perspective, we're all here the

5 night before, so starting at 9 a.m. the first

6 day would be acceptable to us and going 9 to

7 6 and then 8 to 3 the second day is

8 acceptable, as well. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So should we shift

10 the time to start at 9 a.m.? Is it going to

11 pinch anyone? Were you driving in, Doug? 

12 MR. POTTS: No. Doug Potts,

13 American Water. So, actually, yes, two of

14 those dates there's some childcare issues with

15 my wife working that night and stuff like

16 that, so I would just have to be a little bit

17 late that day. That's the issue -- 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm not

19 observing anybody that's complaining about

20 starting at 9 a.m. on the first day. Chuck? 

21 MR. POWERS: We've got to make

22 sure we get the rooms sorted out because we
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1 didn't even start at 10. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. I promise you

3 we're working on it, and sometimes the

4 Secretary, given his prerogatives, will seize

5 this room. Okay. So we're going to change

6 the meeting time to start on day one at 9

7 a.m., and should we go to 5 or 6?

8 MR. ADIN: Five? 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's try for 5. 

10 And if we really do well, I'll let you out at

11 5. And if we don't, we'll go to 5:30. Yes,

12 9 to 5. And then on day two, we start at 8

13 and we're done at 3. Okay. That's good.

14 And then, finally, a few

15 individuals, Mark was one, Gary was another,

16 offered to host meetings. Gary's facility in

17 San Francisco and Mark's facility in Chicago. 

18 And then Chuck, if I'm not mistaken, did you

19 say that we could do a site visit in Maryland? 

20 Did I get that right? Yes, yes. And so I

21 just, I'm kind of ambushing Lucas here. I

22 asked him about the general feasibility of
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1 this, and he didn't really have a good answer. 

2 But I felt compelled to bring it up again, and

3 can you address this in any way? 

4 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, I had an

5 answer. So I mean, generally speaking, it's

6 something that we could do. We would just

7 have to evaluate, you know, whatever proposed

8 location it is and figure out if it's going to

9 be feasible. I mean, there are budgetary

10 aspects and logistical aspects and whatnot. 

11 So -- 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm looking at

13 the calendar, and our next meeting is March

14 4th and 5th, and I'm wondering if we should

15 just plan on doing that one here in

16 Washington, and then think about the

17 subsequent meetings, March 26 and 27. They're

18 kind of close together. Maybe we would do

19 that one in another location, provided DOE can

20 find the budget, that's one, for travel and

21 other things and provided that we can assure

22 that we have the capacity to do webinar and
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1 have a good court reporter present at one of

2 those other locations. Okay? So that's the

3 plan. We'll talk about this at our next

4 meeting.

5 And I think that's all the items

6 on my list. Any other thing that we need to

7 cover before we adjourn? Then I offer, at

8 this point, an opportunity for anybody to make

9 closing remarks. Then we're adjourned. 

10 Steve, do you -- 

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you, Doug. 

12 No, thank you, Doug. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks to all of

14 you and safe travels. We made good progress

15 at this meeting. I'm pleased.

16 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

17 was concluded at 2:59 p.m.)

18

19

20

21

22
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calibrated 24:21

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California 2:1

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106:18 107:21

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331:22

Cappellino 1:20

17:22 18:1,2,10

18:16,20 35:18,19

55:2,3 56:2,6,8,11

56:14,18 57:5,15

57:18 58:4 59:1

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110:8,10,11

138:17,18 140:14

141:10,17 189:15

189:16 231:16

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case 1:20 25:14

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256:6 265:2

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113:1 121:6

126:18 136:2

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194:21 197:5

201:22 206:14

215:7,21 216:9

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231:15,18 232:12

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clarification 24:15

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class 39:12 113:22

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classification

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clean 171:11,14,22

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185:21,22 188:1

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315:18,22 316:2,3

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24:19 25:10,21

37:4 43:12 44:7

50:12 76:21 92:20

93:20 96:9 99:19

135:19 138:13

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108:6 167:8

174:16 176:20

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closer 8:15 22:7

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Coast 215:10

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213:4,12,18 214:1

217:8 218:19

219:12 222:6,18

cold 237:10

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261:11

collected 20:10

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collection 271:9,14

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29:8 73:20 156:8

combined 55:9

75:10

come 8:9 13:17

27:3 32:6 33:9

38:4 41:21 45:17

45:18 47:15

126:16 132:4

136:8 137:5 162:5

162:18 172:11,15

183:16 187:18

202:16 223:15

225:19 238:21

248:19 249:9

282:7 289:6,17,18

291:21 322:4

323:21

comes 13:3 46:2

57:18 94:3 123:8

141:3 158:3

162:11 178:18

234:18 318:9

comfort 33:5

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158:19 176:6

191:22 194:4

230:5 237:4 267:9

269:21 279:17

286:4 299:4

301:16 307:5

coming 77:7

259:11 271:2

274:4 294:12

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commencing

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293:17,19 303:16

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components 17:13

19:20 87:10 100:2

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comprehensive

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conceptually 10:15

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Conclusions 3:8

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Conservation 1:21

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consistently 106:21

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Corporation 1:19

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Corps 250:11

correct 18:9,19

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71:9 77:16 185:17

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Council 1:22 2:11

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counted 301:6

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76:21 84:11

108:22 148:6

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240:22 277:2

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280:9 306:16

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covered 9:8 16:4,18

16:21 17:3,3

19:16 95:16

121:19 136:21,22

166:1 168:20

174:8 175:8,12,18

195:5 205:11

227:3,20 234:7

243:18 252:16

266:12,12 273:16

290:13,22 303:12

303:15 313:5

322:18

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create 23:4 174:16

criteria 121:6

310:5,9,11,16

312:11

critical 173:17

234:6,17

cross-pollination

254:7

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crystal 307:2

cubed 238:19,20

320:9,20

curious 304:22

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128:19 142:19

224:14 253:9

259:18,19 264:10

currently 49:13

134:6

curve 20:11 24:21

29:4 34:1,2 44:1

99:14 100:21

102:4,4 112:16

113:1 114:4

117:20 118:8

119:20 122:13,15

123:18 124:4

142:22 147:4,6,10

148:3

curves 21:10 30:3

46:22 119:11

147:5,7,16

custom 180:10,10

250:2,22

customer 19:4

21:12 22:11,21

24:6 32:7 33:7

37:5 46:3 47:19

48:10 50:14 51:3

51:7,13 54:12

78:14 111:8

138:21 139:17

141:13 145:15

206:16,21 210:12

211:7,9 213:19

219:4,10,10 220:6

220:6 221:5 222:4

222:7 249:18

customer's 73:17

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128:1 145:2

147:21 215:8

297:16

customize 126:9

cut 222:20

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cycle 310:8

D

D.C 1:12 4:12

dairy 171:1

Dan 210:5,6 218:22

223:3

Danfoss 2:4

DANIEL 1:15 2:12

darn 303:17,17,18

data 3:6 5:15 20:9

21:20,21 22:2

23:1,2,18 24:10

26:20 27:2 31:11

107:10 133:5

135:3 157:20

158:2,3,7 159:7

159:12,17,18

160:11 161:1,3,6

226:4,6 257:1

258:12,14,21

259:4,12 260:3,8

260:9 261:4,11,13

261:19,21 265:21

267:14 269:9

270:14 271:8,13

272:10,21 277:8

279:8,11,13,18

280:21 281:13

289:5,20 313:11

322:2,7,10

database 159:7

date 258:19 288:6

dates 328:16
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176:9 187:10,12

188:2 189:22

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217:14 229:16

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312:14,18,19,21

313:19 314:4

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122:15 137:1

189:10 228:6

248:18 275:7

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defines 173:7

defining 11:6 16:18

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187:7 188:1 195:3

203:21 204:17

219:19 223:7

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229:21 230:5,10

230:12,18 231:6

231:10 232:4

234:7 235:13

237:1,3,7,9,14

238:9,11,18 239:8

240:9 241:19

242:15 243:6,18

244:8 245:6 249:6

253:10 275:2

278:12 290:14

295:18 300:17,22

302:7,8 303:2,11

303:15 304:1,4,16

305:1 306:6,17

307:3,6 308:10

309:3,6,10 312:10

314:14 315:20

321:1 322:18

definitions 9:7

175:12 187:19

190:12 191:6

243:14 246:2

256:2 274:17

276:21 290:13

298:20 319:11

326:20

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242:5 302:11

320:5,21

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Demand 80:8

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denominator

116:21 117:8,10

117:14 160:19

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1:15,16,16 14:17

72:20 204:4

267:19 282:16

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198:22 270:12

313:12

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111:7 207:13

215:13 216:16

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289:16

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243:19 252:1

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35:21 36:9,15,16

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124:10 151:5,9

171:2,16,16,19

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170:19 180:10,11

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300:10 309:7,8

310:14 311:16

312:13

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325:16

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93:19

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131:16 142:19

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77:18 295:20

300:4

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238:20 261:1

Development 1:20

device 229:11

DFTs 80:7

Diagnostics 1:21

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49:16 51:8 53:22

75:3 215:21 219:7

255:4

diameters 21:11

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293:5,7

diesels 245:2

difference 10:20

52:13 61:21 84:8

84:10 113:20

120:9,14 127:3

137:21 140:11,16

141:4 225:17

262:18 282:22

differences 50:16

58:21 140:22

141:3 169:9
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direct 211:10

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301:18 303:6,10

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319:8 324:19,22

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65:22 101:2

116:17 147:20,22

182:21 203:5

212:10 219:9

251:7 323:12

326:6,12,13

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316:3

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dissolved 311:2

320:13

distant 290:2

distinct 71:16

164:15,16

distinction 312:1

distinguished

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distribution 209:19

209:20 210:14

212:5 213:5 281:1

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203:18,18 208:16

211:16,17 215:12

216:7,7,16 219:5

219:11 222:5

distributors 135:8

204:2,7,14,21

208:12 209:2

211:2 212:1

214:10,15 215:15

divided 142:17

dividing 80:22

doable 153:20

docket 294:22

document 116:19

120:21 173:11

306:10 307:10

314:12

documented 295:8

Doe 16:1 21:19

22:13 25:15 27:15

34:18 35:11 38:19

39:15 41:8 43:6

47:16,18 50:7

54:2 56:1 57:7

60:4,9 61:3 62:8

64:12 65:12 78:4

84:12 94:2 100:22

115:18 130:15

134:20 143:14

144:8 154:4

157:13,19 161:12

175:17 190:13

194:11 202:10

217:3 218:9

227:15 228:7,7

230:10,15,19

235:2,12,14,21

244:7 256:8,15

259:5 262:5

266:13 268:3

269:3,3 270:19

271:5,7 273:14

282:7,15 289:3

291:18 304:22

308:16 315:4,11

323:1,21 324:14

331:19

DOE's 78:8 161:17

227:6 257:5

270:14

doing 5:1 10:15

14:8 43:13 50:2

53:11 70:9 85:10

93:11 100:4

118:10 132:1

137:21 139:8

154:4,5 155:4,5

158:11 178:17

213:12 217:17

219:20 221:5,7

222:4 236:3

261:21 272:16

279:3 285:19

297:19 325:18

331:15

dollar 206:10

dollars 210:1

domestic 72:7

domestically 74:2

80:2 81:5 214:12

214:13,15

dominated 244:21

door 22:1 25:6 29:2

46:13 58:11 86:8

126:17 128:20

double 242:4

doubt 76:3

Doug 1:12,14,16

114:18 117:21,22

120:17,18 123:15

124:15 145:9

177:6 184:1 194:8

238:13 242:17

246:4,6 296:6

300:13 321:8

325:6 329:11,12

332:11,12

DOUGLAS 2:6

dramatic 99:13

dramatically 33:5

draw 32:2

drawing 94:22

115:6,9

drawn 100:20

drew 119:11

drill 217:12

drip 33:1

drive 10:13 19:6

58:12 63:21 83:20

110:15,16 111:2

133:18,19 138:20

142:15 143:15

144:21 198:10,10

driven 139:6

driver 91:16 98:7

98:10,12,22 102:1

105:17,18 106:16

107:22 108:15

212:12 244:8

292:6,9 293:22

drivers 100:6

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drives 90:18 91:2

134:11 150:13,21

151:14 325:13

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dynamic 207:18

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eager 95:7

earlier 103:10

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312:4 313:20

314:5 321:13

329:16

load 24:21 28:6,17

28:18 29:15,21

30:4 33:3 60:17

94:12,13 102:5

106:20 109:5,17

113:11 115:14,16

115:19 132:7

136:11 137:8

138:3 149:21,22

150:4,5,8 151:3,3

151:8 154:10,10

154:12,12 158:2

160:13,13 261:11

loaded 107:12

loading 107:14

110:2

loadings 107:5

loads 115:1 150:9

157:21

local 179:19 211:2

location 102:3

331:8,19

locations 332:2

lock 195:15

logic 176:6,15

181:13 184:16

188:9 256:18

logical 44:19 65:21

logistical 331:10

long 7:18 21:18

42:18,22 73:5

87:14 99:22 154:8

281:15 287:5

longer 197:10

304:6

look 27:15 60:21

79:16,16 110:20

125:8 126:1

141:12 144:11,15

145:12 156:2,19

158:16 160:14

167:9 173:1

189:10 190:14

191:4 217:22

237:1 239:18

240:1 241:19

261:12 262:16

263:3 270:20

273:18 274:4

275:5,6 276:4,6

286:15,22 287:11

305:5 309:15,21

310:21 313:4

318:6

looked 115:4 129:3

131:5 237:4

268:18 294:3

324:5

looking 5:18 13:17

15:11 16:19 58:20

59:9,11 64:5 70:9

94:14 103:1

115:20 117:2,9

126:20 134:9,18

135:20 136:1

154:1,2 156:15,15

160:17 174:22

202:13 218:3

262:11 266:14

268:8 278:14

303:20 305:11

312:1 313:10

320:12,19 327:16

331:12

looks 113:10 271:1

310:18

lookup 102:21

105:22

loss 76:9

losses 17:1 49:21

101:12 127:1

200:5

lost 185:12

lot 4:18 6:8,19 9:14

12:11 13:5 23:9

24:18 25:12,14

27:20,22 31:9,10

31:11 34:4 36:20

37:22,22 38:2,8

84:13 92:18 94:9

96:21 98:19 109:2

113:21 116:17

123:7 126:4

127:11 153:10

172:7 188:22

206:15 207:22

215:2 216:18

238:5 249:8

263:18,20 274:12

275:22 276:2

279:3 280:2,3

281:22 282:15

283:14 290:8,22

313:13 323:16

324:3

lots 50:15 72:15,15

Louis 2:9 38:11

40:7 65:7,9 80:14

95:22 110:9

112:10 114:8

127:18 138:15

141:19 172:18

190:3 231:3 236:6

252:13 266:9

267:7 270:17

287:18 313:7,7

317:18

love 148:11 287:8

low 74:3,9 122:17

262:17 284:17

285:4,5

lower 32:16 49:4

68:5 98:14 99:8

101:17 104:8

128:13 283:22

284:18

lowest 63:1

Lucas 1:15 8:13

9:17 12:21 15:10

30:8 43:4,6,13

47:4,22 48:17

49:12 51:16,20

58:17,18 64:16

76:18 78:1 92:8

95:16 96:4 97:8

111:3 120:3

131:11 135:17

140:4 144:6 145:8

145:12 159:21

161:9 163:6 170:5

173:3 179:21

194:11 195:6

196:2 227:4 228:4

242:19 244:7

247:8 248:13

257:2 285:15

287:5 292:11

296:3 298:16

311:11 323:2

325:14 330:21

luckily 108:4

lucky 178:19

lunch 5:16 152:19

163:15 285:12,18

288:15 289:8

290:10,18 291:2

lying 317:8

M

machine 72:14

207:18

machined 172:6

magnetic 224:6

magnitude 262:13

263:4

magnitudes 263:13

263:14

main 143:19

major 76:16

177:10 178:1

256:6

majority 208:21

210:1

making 37:15 89:5

95:1 109:19

126:10 143:20

163:2 219:16

263:1 274:3

279:17 308:22

312:2

man 282:9

manner 121:5,7

manufacture

203:21 212:4

manufactured

192:1

manufacturer 23:2

24:11 25:11 54:11

60:9,18,19 84:14

134:12 150:4,10
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manufacturers

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74:6 82:18 86:5

114:3 134:6 135:2

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146:4 155:22

157:21 159:8,20

204:21 206:12

209:15 226:8

231:18 232:9

236:15 238:17

264:21 265:16

269:10,14 270:13

279:21 280:3

284:14 301:21

307:13 310:11

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manufacturing

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217:15 226:17

map 240:14 258:15

march 162:6,18

254:12 259:15,18

273:8,8 323:13

331:13,17

margin 42:5,17

marine 164:6 165:8

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180:13 181:12

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250:7,9,11 252:14

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marine-related

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marine/Navy 165:1

Mark 2:2 6:18

10:17 11:16 12:5

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61:11 63:2,3

143:10,11 155:17

155:19 187:20,21

193:19 209:1

225:4 261:15

278:20 293:12

294:9 303:19,21

317:11,12 329:2

330:15

Mark's 9:18

209:20 330:17

marked 79:4

market 81:4,10,21

97:20 103:14

128:19 135:4

140:9 216:5,16

218:5,16 219:20

220:9,11 225:20

231:20 236:8,11

236:13,14 246:12

246:15 251:19

260:9 270:12,14

283:1,5,14 284:4

289:5 291:14

293:2 297:16

marketplace 15:18

37:1 53:9 86:21

96:10 283:7,10

318:7,14

markets 20:22 21:1

80:18 169:9 215:7

marks 201:18,20

marry 135:10

Maryland 330:19

mass 204:12

massaged 265:21

MASTERS 2:4

match 86:22

235:10

matched 25:17

matches 235:11

matching 35:9

material 72:10

materials 45:12

166:19,21 169:16

254:9

mathematical

33:10 76:13

118:15

matter 42:17 43:17

43:20 46:2 47:2

51:11 88:3 153:4

194:12 218:12

234:22 296:10,15

301:8 324:15,16

332:16

Mauer 2:4 89:21

89:22 90:13 91:1

171:9,18 191:8

192:12,19 193:5

193:13 248:12

304:21,21 305:3

306:20,20 308:15

308:15

Maurer 191:8

max 32:4,5 45:20

46:1,7,19 47:1

122:15

maximum 32:11

311:2

maybes 257:21

mean 12:8 13:4

30:12 31:14 35:3

37:21 40:2 41:12

42:7 48:6 55:16

57:20 59:15 62:4

65:2,6 80:8 81:15

84:1,15,18 87:11

90:9,10 92:13

94:18 110:22

111:5 120:5

121:17,19 124:6

129:15 130:19,21

131:17 132:17

135:20 140:5

143:13,20 145:11

146:15 147:2,4

148:18 155:8

159:14 164:17

166:15 169:14

171:20 173:17

180:2 181:9 184:2

184:6 194:13

196:21 213:16

225:9 228:22

229:4 236:19

237:20 242:2,11

244:11 246:19

247:10,13 250:13

252:4 257:4 261:1

261:10 268:7,9,14

272:1,6,6,9,11,16

272:18,20 275:18

276:12 279:2,16

280:14,16 287:8

292:6,20 296:8

297:15 302:2

304:18 305:4

306:7,9,11,12,13

308:8 311:17

312:2 317:21

325:7 327:9 331:4

331:5,9

meaning 30:22

55:5 79:22

means 55:5 80:19

87:21 206:14

227:12 238:2

243:2 246:3 292:6

292:9

meant 296:13

299:11 311:20

measurable 15:16

37:18 153:16

312:20 315:9

319:16,17

measure 10:3

36:13 38:5 49:17

99:5,19 100:14,16

101:5 102:11

103:6,22 104:19

105:8 128:12

142:19 146:13

measured 15:20

60:12 61:1 153:19

measurement 10:7

137:6 156:10

224:10

measuring 98:21

99:16,20 118:2

148:1

mechanical 55:6

208:18 209:6

219:7 229:13

244:9 293:15,16

mechanism 142:10

186:14

medium 122:17

meet 27:17 33:16

47:13 75:5 81:18

91:7 121:6 150:4

150:6,7,17 151:20

154:6 170:19

190:10 195:1,9

199:3 220:17

290:18 307:2

meeting 1:5,11,12

1:14 3:7 4:8 5:18

12:11,14 14:5

46:16 93:8 126:18

156:16 161:14

170:2 172:11

175:16 178:19,20

186:21 193:1

203:3,7 205:5

223:16,20 224:16

234:10 248:20

256:8,16 287:14

290:16 291:2

294:12 307:13

310:8 319:9 321:7

321:18,21 322:15

323:9,21 326:1

330:6 331:13

332:4,15

meetings 5:20

14:18 72:21

239:18 330:16

331:17

meets 46:7 222:16

297:9

Meg 2:11 39:7

168:10 170:14

187:2 190:5 234:2

238:15,16 245:14

271:1,4 273:4

Meg's 189:9 295:17

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member 135:15

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members 6:14 88:1

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membranes 206:17

memory 195:13

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mentions 303:22

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109:9 111:7 112:2

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116:17 117:7

119:21 127:19,22

128:9,14 129:14

132:3 136:2,10

137:5 147:18,19

150:15,17 151:3,5

153:16 160:16

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metrics 13:15

39:18,22 65:15

105:16 110:14

137:1 150:9

238:20 261:12

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mezuzah 76:5

mic 200:8

microphone 22:7

97:6 158:22

mid 5:11

midsize 40:12

Mike 2:8 95:8,9,10

95:11,11

miles 139:16

Military 249:20

mill 253:20

million 206:10

208:14 210:1

million-dollar

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mind 88:16 89:3

94:3,17 111:1

170:14 177:8

268:20 303:14

319:18

mine 72:6

minimally 78:7

103:19 104:1

minimum 20:14,17

28:15,16 172:4

275:15 312:15

minus 237:22

241:21 242:6,8

minute 99:3 146:6

235:4 283:4

minutes 86:1 87:17

87:18,21 89:14

240:21 321:3

mirrors 209:19

misgivings 66:5

misread 302:3

missing 86:17

118:13 247:12

misstate 196:21

mistake 186:12,16

mistaken 259:20

295:5 330:18

misunderstanding

77:14

mixed 186:16

201:5 241:17

246:9

MNN 164:5

MNNs 164:5

mode 13:22

model 21:4,9,15,20

21:21 22:2 24:10

25:22 26:2 49:15

54:17 81:13

160:11

modeling 72:9

114:11

models 15:17 23:8

75:4 153:17 281:1

282:3

modify 213:11

modular 35:21

36:16,18

modularity 36:3

moment 201:3

211:17

money 74:17 142:9

month 80:2

months 89:19

247:6 259:12,13

morning 4:3,6 5:11

6:15,20 173:3

243:21 290:22

motor 1:19 10:13

16:12,12,19,22

17:6,7,9,10,15

18:11,11 19:6,17

19:20 20:13,14,18

21:21 22:12,20,21

23:2,8 24:12,17

24:21 25:2,6,13

26:5,6,7,20 27:1

28:5 29:7,8,15,22

30:3 32:19,20,22

33:1,20 34:9,10

34:18 37:3,7,8,8

37:12 40:17,20,21

41:15 42:10,18

43:9,14,15 44:3,3

47:6,6,18 50:1

51:3,5,6,9,12,14

52:1,2,7,8,15 53:3

53:6,7,15 54:2,11

54:13,18,19,19

55:8,11,19 57:9

57:21 58:2,6,12

60:1,15,16,20,22

61:9,13,17 62:16

62:18 63:11,15,21

66:11,13 67:10

68:3,12,13,18

69:12,16,18 70:3

70:4,7,11,13 71:3

71:15,20 73:11,16

74:4,6,21,22 77:2

77:4,10,19 78:6,7

78:15 81:6,10,11

81:15 82:18 83:19

86:7 91:15 99:8

99:21 100:14

101:7,22 102:13

102:21,22 103:3,9

103:10,20 104:1,3

104:4,21 105:7,8

106:16 107:22

109:17 110:1

112:4 113:11

114:22 115:14,19

125:12 131:4,7

133:21 134:17

137:17,19,20

140:18,19 147:14

208:17 213:1,22

225:2,12 316:15

motor/pump 23:6

motors 26:12,17

27:16,16,19,20

34:13,14,17,17

35:1 41:8,9 42:13

44:16 54:2 56:22

57:2,4 61:14,18

62:12 67:7 75:8

80:19 100:6

103:16 107:22

108:4 130:16

134:18,19 144:7,9

144:16,17 216:20

225:11 244:21

mountain 129:5

207:9

mouth 299:6

move 22:17,17 36:1

71:17 236:6,22

241:5 242:16

246:22 254:14

264:5 265:15

272:22 290:4

302:19 319:13,22

moves 229:12

moving 102:3

152:3 212:18

217:17 265:11

278:3 282:12

288:5 321:3

multiple 65:15,22

80:18,19 111:12

135:9 150:12,18

151:3 189:5 208:1

245:5

multiply 81:17

multiplying 20:16

multistage 198:21

275:9

multitude 313:21

municipal 53:11

mute 15:4

N

N-stamp 169:10
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nail 317:3

name 14:1 130:8

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nameplate 26:20

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102:20 103:11

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narrow 235:9,13

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narrower 236:1

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National 2:12,13

natural 2:11

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nature 299:8

naval 250:1 252:20

Navigant 2:8,8,12

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Navy 164:6 165:11

165:14 167:14

169:13,17 178:3

178:21 179:12

181:12 201:12

245:9 247:8 249:8

249:10 250:5

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Navy's 167:16

near 113:19

necessarily 7:11

13:10 29:16 31:11

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38:21 159:22

209:9 258:12

NEEA 65:10

need 4:17 5:17,18

11:19 27:10,15

28:17 35:15,22

36:7 54:13 72:18

72:21 80:19 87:15

93:11,18 95:18

97:19 101:11

116:12 124:5

125:17 131:19

134:14 142:14

152:19 153:1

155:22 156:11

158:15 173:16,19

173:22 177:11

182:5,13 187:6

191:20 216:4

217:13 219:5,5

245:11 252:3

265:22 269:3,9

271:21 272:7,10

272:10,13,17

274:16 276:20

280:8 281:1 282:6

288:16 304:2

309:9 311:22

312:9 319:10

324:14 325:1,9

329:1 332:6

needed 88:7 237:21

247:17

needing 295:18

needs 82:22 83:8

145:22 157:19

187:15 190:20

213:19 219:10

222:1 223:20

304:6 316:10

negative 80:1 320:5

negatively 81:14

negotiation 176:11

295:3 303:10

322:1

negotiators 181:16

NEMA 54:7 55:21

73:2 81:6 214:3

neutral 151:11

neutrality 293:12

never 45:5 68:13

68:13 142:18

169:11 210:22

213:3 250:22

292:14 319:18

new 49:4 134:2

149:17 159:6

183:15 193:18

217:4

NFPA 190:9,11

191:14 192:2,8,15

192:20 193:1,10

193:20,21 297:1,4

297:5,6,10

NGOs 254:5 282:5

287:17 299:2

nicely 133:13

niche 214:18

216:21

Nidec 1:19

night 163:9 164:12

277:7 329:5,15

nine 198:22 199:15

199:22

nine-stage 200:2,10

NIST 224:11 270:4

nit 293:18

nitpicking 314:16

nodding 185:9

noise 167:16

nomenclature

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277:20 327:7

nominal 25:4

143:14

non 74:22 143:16

non-certified

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non-clean 185:20

201:7 235:3

non-control 224:22

non-custom 277:1

non-custom-desi...

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non-engineered

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non-fire 193:7

non-pump 310:11

non-regulation

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NOPR 262:5

normal 169:11,21

normalized 117:18

Northwest 1:21 2:9

2:12 253:13 262:9

322:22

nos 258:2

notation 243:11

294:2

note 35:7 88:7

252:11 254:20,21

255:14 306:3

noted 295:17

notes 190:20

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319:2 328:8

noting 186:21

259:2 300:1

notion 168:6

NPSH 123:7,7

NRDC 238:16

271:4

nuclear 164:6

165:2,14,17

166:16 167:14,18

178:3,21 179:13

179:17 180:13

181:12 201:13

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nuke 249:10

number 30:18

50:14,15 52:11

56:3,3,5 61:4 77:7

79:12 81:20 82:1

101:15 103:16,18

109:12 123:12

124:2,13 144:1

196:6 197:5,6,13

198:19 199:2,4,21

200:16 204:8

275:15 291:15,16

293:1

numbers 25:5

30:21 33:14 72:15

84:1 122:22

125:21 129:2

134:7,15,16

numerical 120:12

125:21

O

oath 249:9

object 182:11

objection 180:18

248:14

objective 37:17

153:15 310:10

objectively 15:16

37:18 153:16

237:15 315:9

objectives 139:1

obligate 292:4

obligations 65:17

observation 9:11

observing 188:9

329:19

obtain 30:15 246:3

obtainable 31:12

obtained 30:18

obtaining 31:10

obviously 10:4 17:8

58:19 92:18

107:18 111:9

115:15 129:21

131:22 156:8

162:3 228:12

249:14 250:21

272:11 279:12,19

286:21 293:4

294:11 323:4

occasionally 21:13

occurred 188:6

OEM 211:10,11

214:18 219:15

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OEMs 221:1,7

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12:6 23:12 63:4

155:20 187:21

209:20 303:22

317:13

Xylem's 209:2

Y

Y 73:12

yeah 154:22 155:19

166:5,12 168:22

173:10 174:3

177:8 179:8 180:1

180:9 181:4 182:7

185:18 186:5

189:2 190:15,18

194:17 198:7

246:6 248:13

249:3 257:8,19

258:3,4 260:1

261:8 264:16

266:7 270:18

271:3 272:4,18,20

273:3 276:17

year 46:10 122:4

256:9 258:20

262:4 265:17

267:13 273:17

281:16 282:10

287:12

years 45:3 76:6

82:17,19 168:5

180:6 235:8

266:17,17 274:6

287:20

yellow 174:11

175:14 182:1

186:22 189:20

255:22 256:14,19

257:16 258:11,19

260:17 261:18

262:7,14 263:2

265:12,20 266:12

267:13 269:14

271:11,20 273:5,9

274:14 282:22

283:3,13 285:1

289:12,21 290:5

313:22 315:21

yellows 258:6,7

yep 17:21

yesterday 4:19 5:3

5:6 6:9 7:11 9:8

9:13 10:20 12:9

14:2 18:3 35:20

37:3 90:14 134:12

163:8 168:16

175:15 176:20

177:1 185:1 187:4

187:9 191:19

192:14 193:2

195:6 203:20

226:20 243:21

256:1,4 258:15

259:3,4 262:1

274:18 277:16

279:8,16 290:9

311:15 327:3

yesterday's 5:6

Yokogawa 224:12

York 217:4

Z

zero 143:2

zone 33:5

0

1

1,000 79:12,13,14

126:7

1:25 290:10,20

1:39 291:3

10 46:6 87:16,18,20

208:13,13 235:7

237:22 241:21

242:6,8 320:5,21

328:19 330:1

10-inch 276:11

10:15 5:12

10:45 152:15 153:4

100 26:16 80:2 99:1

99:2,3,4 107:6

108:2,6 123:17

124:18 125:13

128:20 132:20

133:22

1000 1:11

101 122:2 146:6

10th 259:7

11 27:20,22 229:15

11:00 152:16 153:2

11:05 153:5

110 160:14

12 262:12 321:3

12:25 290:8 291:1

12:30 5:16 152:18

120 241:21 242:8

1210 133:17 158:3

125 3:5

14 3:4 266:17

14,000 26:6

15 89:13 168:4

180:6 216:17

235:8 320:19

15-man 210:3

150 73:4 196:14

16 182:16

17 182:16

172 73:4

175 73:4,12

198 73:3

2

2,000 268:20

2,500 41:4

2:59 332:17

20 15:8 54:6 82:19

89:14 153:13

190:11 192:2,8

193:20,21 216:17

297:1,5,6,10

200 29:1 33:6,8

73:2,4,7,11 126:5

126:6,22 150:6

196:6,15 197:10

197:14 198:11

199:12 200:11

245:1 275:5,10

276:13 277:3,12

277:21 309:18

310:1,4 311:9

317:6

2011 134:3

2014 1:8 4:10

21 266:17

23,000 263:8

25 99:18 109:12

123:5,10 124:5

132:20 160:12,13

320:6,11,13,14

250 29:6

259 3:6

26 331:17

27 331:17

3

3 72:3 328:21,22

329:7 330:13

3-A 170:22

3.14 81:17

3:00 4:15

30 208:13 320:15

300 309:22

304 172:4

31 1:8 4:10

316 172:5

321 3:7

332 3:8

35 320:15,15

3500 263:8

38 45:3

3916 142:17

4

4 3:2

40 113:13 133:21

133:22 208:13

214:18 242:1,5,13

262:18 320:21

40.6 26:19

45 107:8

470,000 263:9

4th 331:14

5

5 3:3 330:7,9,11,12

5,000 126:7 276:18

5:30 330:11
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 372

50 99:17 107:8,9

108:3,5,7 132:20

133:22 151:8

160:13 214:18

216:13,14 238:19

320:9

500 74:5 214:15

268:4 275:16

500,000 72:3

5th 331:14

6

6 328:19 329:7

330:7

600,000 167:10

61 214:9,15

610 164:18 201:10

297:6

7

70 125:3

75 99:6 107:7

119:13 124:17,22

132:20 133:21,22

160:13

8

8 328:20 329:7

330:12

8,000 263:9

8:00 1:12

8:07 4:2

80 76:10 124:19

85 302:10

8E-089 1:11

9
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

373

ASRAC Commercial/Industrial

Pumps Working Group Meeting

US DOE

01-31-14

Washington, DC