BEFORE THE 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGtJll DEC 2! P 2: 21 

MICHAEL P. HUERTA 1 

Acting Administrator 

FEDERAL AVIATION 

ADMINISTRATION/ 

Complainant/ FAA No. 2012-0875 

v. 

MOUNTAIN AVIATION 1 INC. 

Respondent. 

Alfred A. Arraj U.S. Courthouse 

901 19th Street 

2nd Floor 

Courtroom 601 

Denver/ Colorado 

1 

Tuesday/ 

November 27 1 2012. RECEIVED 

· DEC 1 ~ 2012 

9:00 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

(202) 234-4433 

HEARING DOCKET 

THE HONORABLE RICHARD GOODWIN 

Administrative Law Judge 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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APPEARANCES: 

For the Complainant: 

KYLE LOMAZOW, ESQ. 

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION 

OFFICE OF REGIONAL COUNSEL 

1601 Lind Avenue Southwest 

Renton, WA 98057-3356 

425.227.1847 

kyle.lomazow@faa.gov 

For the Respondent: 

KENT JACKSON, ESQ. 

LORI N. EDWARDS-MCGEE, ESQ. 

JACKSON & WADE, L.L.C. 

21628 Midland Drive 

Shawnee, KS 66218 

913.338.1700 

ledwards®jetlaw.com 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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2 

www.nealrgross.com 
CONTENTS 

OPENING STATEMENT by Mr. Lomazow 

WITNESSES FOR THE COMPLAINANT: 

CHRISTOPHER ANTON LANG 

Direct Examination by Mr. Lomazow 

Cross-Examination by Mr. Jackson 

ALVIN HAYES HANKINS 

Direct Examination by Mr. Lomazow . 

Cross-Examination by Mr. Jackson 

Redirect Examination by Mr. Lomazow 

Recross-Examination by Mr. Jackson 

PETER THEODORE POPP 

11 

17 

40 

54 

62 

77 

78 

Direct Examination by Mr. Lomazow . 80 

Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Jackson 82 

Direct Examination (continued) by 

Mr. Lomazow 83 

Cross-Examination by Mr. Jackson 93 

Redirect Examination by Mr. Lomazow 113 

OPENING STATEMENT by Mr. Jac~son 117 

WITNESSES FOR THE RESPONDENT: 

GARY KENT EMMERSON 

Direct Examination by Mr. Jackson 

Cross-Examination by Mr. Lomazow 

RICHY ALLEN BJELKEVIG 

Direct Examination by Mr. Jackson 

Cross-Examination by Mr. Lomazow 

NEAL R. GROSS 

119 

138 

146 

152 

3 

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EXHIBIT No. Description Reed 

COMPLAINANT EXHIBITS: 

1 FAA Form 8410-3 for David Moss 24 

2 FAA Form 8410-3 for John Kuzneski 26 

3 FAA Form 8410-3 for Stephanie Wells 28 

4 FAA Form 8410-3 for Jeremy Sumpter 29 

5 135 trip by Mountain Aviation 31 

6 Letter of Investigation by Mr. Lang 32 

7 Response to Letter of Investigation 34 

9 Designation of check airman letter 

for Rodney Getty and letter for 

Mr. Taft 59 

RESPONDENT EXHIBITS: 

4 Form 8410 for Mr. Taft 129 

5 Form 8410 for Mr. Getty 129 

6 Affidavit of Gary Emmerson 130 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:12 a.m. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go on the 

4 record. Be seated. The case of Mountain 

5 Aviation -- FAA versus Mountain Aviation, FAA 

6 No. 2012-0875. Counsel, do you want to 

7 identify yourself for the record, please? 

8 MR. LOMAZOW: Kyle Lomazow for the 

9 Complainant. 

10 MR. JACKSON: Kent Jackson for 

11 Mountain Aviation. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. A couple 

13 preliminary matters that Mr. Lomazow's 

14 familiar with. Did you have something else, 

15 Mr. Lomazow? 

16 MR. LOMAZOW: No. I was going to 

17 point to something in the complaint. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Let's get 

19 to that in a second. 

20 MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Jackson, as 

22 Mr. Lomazow's familiar, everything we do here 

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1 goes on the Internet. So I'm going to ask 

2 you, when you submit an exhibit, to please 

3 redact all personal information, including 

4 dates of birth, social security numbers, cell 

5 numbers, home phone numbers, and everything 

6 else. In today's age, it's my position that 

7 none of that information belongs on the 

8 Internet. 

9 If we get into an area that has 

10 any security concerns, any business, financial 

11 information, my suggestion is that both of you 

12 confer. Even if you don't agree, I'm prone to 

13 seal the record of portions of that. I don't 

14 want any business information. We get a lot 

15 of information in these hearings that just 

16 flat out doesn't belong on the Internet 

17 business records, financial records, and so 

18 forth. The FAA agents, the same thing applies 

19 to them. 

20 I'll keep the exhibits. What I'll 

21 do when a case is concluded is send everything 

22 to Washington. And it will ultimately be put 

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1 on the Internet. 

2 As I indicated in my procedural 

3 order, I am prone to allow both counsel to 

4 brief the case. I find that once I get the 

5 transcript, this 1s my I don' t have any 

6 engagement. I'm out on the road. I haven't 

7 been home more than five straight days since 

8 January. 

9 So by the time I get the 

10 transcript and review it, I've probably 

11 forgotten the facts of the case. So I invite 

12 the both of you to brief it. You can 

13 certainly do a closing argument if you want 

14 to. But I invite you to brief. 

15 On the schedule -- and I am 

16 mindful that the holidays are coming up. So 

17 I'm not going to make you adhere to some 

18 really tight schedule with the reality of the 

19 situation. 

20 Government employees have 

21 use-or-lose leave on the holidays. And we all 

22 have holidays and family that -- I've been on 

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1 your side of the bench. So I know what it's 

2 like to -- to be set for trial during the 

3 Christmas holidays, although usually they were 

4 always those fun cases -- custody and 

5 visitation. 

6 A preliminary matter, Mr. Lomazow? 

7 MR . LOMAZOW : Yes. Just .for a 

8 point of clarity, I -- just the sanction that 

9 the Complainant is seeking is 21,450. In the 

10 complaint in one section, I believe on page 4 

11 of 6, we indicated in one spot 21,400 and in 

12 the other 21,450. So just for clarification 

13 purposes, it's 21,450. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

15 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, also I 

16 would like to invoke the rule of sequestration 

17 for this case. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What I'm 

19 going to do is instruct all the witnesses that 

2 0 are going to testify in this case to step 

21 outside the courtroom. You are not to discuss 

22 your testimony with anybody during the 

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1 pendency of the hearing. 

2 If you have a question about 

3 whether you can answer a question, talk with 

4 your attorneys. Your attorneys should be 

5 well-versed in the rules of sequestration. 

6 I'm not sure what the configuration of the 

7 building is, but I'd just let your attorneys 

8 know where you are. 

9 As a matter of practice, I allow 

10 each side to have one expert witness who may 

11 or may not be called as a witness. So the FAA 

12 only has -- one of their inspectors is sitting 

13 as an expert witness. You may be called. The 

14 Respondent certainly has the same opportunity. 

15 The rule applies to them that they can't 

16 discuss the testimony during the pendency of 

17 the hearing. 

18 Any other preliminary matters? 

19 MR. JACKSON: And, Your Honor, 

20 just for clarification, Rich Bjelkevig is the 

21 president of Mountain Aviation. He will 

22 testify as a fact witness, but not as an 

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1 expert witness. So ... 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Well, the 

3 rule -- generally, the rule is that each side 

4 has an expert -- a technical expert sits at 

5 counsel table. I'm sure, Mr. Jackson, you've 

6 instructed your client on the nuances of 

7 judicial presentation. So I'm not going to 

8 worry too much. It 1s an administrative 

9 hearing. And, as I like to say, if you can 

10 get the truck in the door, I' 11 put an exhibit 

11 number on it and admit it. 

12 Any other preliminary matters? 

13 MR. LOMAZOW: No, Your Honor. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

15 Mr. Lomazow, does the FAA have an opening 

16 statement? 

17 MR. LOMAZOW: Yes. Should we have 

18 the witnesses step out? 

19 MR. JACKSON: And should we get 

20 our witnesses out of here? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Okay. 

22 Let's --it's --but -- oh. Yeah. One other 

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1 preliminary matter, if we can do this before 

2 the witnesses leave. I generally break around 

3 10:30 for about 15 minutes, break about noon 

4 for an hour, hour and a half, break again 

5 sometime midafternoon. 

6 As my hearing notice says, the 

7 hearing will conclude one way or another at 

8 4:30. And we should all be out of the 

9 courthouse by 5 o'clock, unless you want to 

10 pay the overtime due to the CSOs for working 

11 overtime. 

12 Okay. With that, we'll go off the 

13 record and give you a few minutes to get the 

14 witnesses out of the courtroom. 

15 (Off the record for about a minute 

16 and then back on the record. ) 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're back on the 

18 record. Does the FAA have an open1ng 

19 statement? 

20 MR. LOMAZOW: Yes, Your Honor. 

21 OPENING STATEMENT 

22 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

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1 Your Honor, this case is the 

2 fact pattern isn't that complicated. It's 

3 about a Mountain Aviation's --a part 135 air 

4 carrler. They employ a check airman named 

5 Ronnie (sic) Getty. Or is it Ronald (sic) 

6 Getty? And what we're alleging lS that 

7 Mr. Getty was observed giving a check to 

8 a check -- to a pilot by a -- either an FAA 

9 inspector or what's called an Aircrew 

10 Designated Examiner. 

11 And after his period to do so 

12 expired, which was I believe the end of 

13 September 2010, he went on to give a total of 

14 six flight checks when he was not qualified to 

15 do so. 

16 Now, what we're alleging is CFR 

17 13563A46 and that Mountain failed to give at 

18 its principal office a record of a pilot used 

19 in operations under part 135 that contained a 

20 date and result of each of the initial and 

21 recurrent competency tests and proficiency and 

22 route checks required by 14 part 135. 

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1 And what we're referring to is the 

2 documents for Ronald Getty showing that he 

3 was, in fact, competent. We're also referring 

4 to -- or we're also alleging 13595B and that 

5 Mountain used the services of an airman who 

6 was not qualified for the operation which the 

7 airman was used. 

8 The evidence will show -- or we 

9 will present evidence showing that one of the 

10 airmen who was -- who received a flight check 

11 from Ronald Getty -- his name 1s Jeremy 

12 Sumpter -- he conducted a part 135 operation 

13 when he was not qualified to do so. The 

14 reason he was not qualified to do so 1s 

15 because when he received his flight check from 

16 Ronald Getty, Ronald Getty was not qualified 

17 to give that check. 

18 And we're also alleging 135339A2. 

19 Now, this is really the heart of this -- of 

20 this case because it comes down to having 

21 whether Ronald Getty was observed giving a 

22 flight check by either an FAA inspector or an 

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1 Aircrew Designated Examiner. 

2 Now, we're going to present 

3 evidence that Mr. Getty did not rece1ve this 

4 check within the required within the 

5 required two-year period. The defense is 

6 going to argue that they believe -- excuse 

7 me --that they have what's called an Aircrew 

8 Designated Examiner. 

9 Now, we're going to present 

10 evidence showing that, one, they did not have 

11 an Aircrew. Designated Examiner and that Ronald 

12 Getty was certainly not a designated examiner 

13 and that they had no reason to believe that 

14 they had an Aircrew Designated Examiner. And 

15 at the end of the case, we believe that the 

16 sanction we're asking for 21,450 -- is 

17 consistent with the sanction guidelines. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, do you 

19 want to argue? Or you want to reserve? 

20 MR. JACKSON: I would prefer to 

21 reserve. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: I mean, other than 

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1 you didn't do it? 

2 MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry? 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Other than your 

4 client didn't do it? 

5 MR. JACKSON: We would like to 

6 present a more complete opening at the 

7 beginning of our case. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Great. 

9 Counsel, do you want to call your first 

10 witness? 

11 MR. LOMAZOW: Sure. Complainant 

12 calls Christopher Lang? 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll leave it to 

14 the court reporter of whether you want to go 

15 on off the record or stay on the record as 

16 we it's up to you. I don't want to end up 

17 with any 20-minute pauses, if you know what I 

18 mean. 

19 COURT REPORTER: As long as 

20 they're right out there. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

22 COURT REPORTER: (Indiscernible.) 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. But that's 

2 your call. 

3 Stand and raise your right hand. 

4 Do you solemnly swear the testimony you glve 

5 will be the truth, the whole truth, and 

6 nothing but the truth under penalty of 

7 perjury? 

8 THE WITNESS: I do so swear. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

10 State your full name for the record and spell 

11 your first and last name. 

12 THE WITNESS: Christopher Anton 

13 Lang. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Could you spell 

15 that, please? 

16 THE WITNESS: Pardon me, Your 

17 Honor? 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Spell it? 

19 MR. LOMAZOW: Spell your name. 

20 COURT REPORTER: Your name, spell 

21 it. 

22 THE WITNESS: Christopher, 

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1 C-h-r-i-s-t-o-p-h-e-r, Anton, A-n-t -o-n, last 

2 name, L-a-n-g. 

3 COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. And just so 

5 you know, Mr. Jackson, I've got a hearing 

6 disability. So if I ask you to speak up, 

7 don't take it personally. It's I literally 

8 can't hear. 

9 THE WITNESS: I have the 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: And this has got 

11 to be one of the worst courtroom 

12 configurations because it doesn't matter what 

13 I do. I've got a TV screen in front of me. 

14 Counsel? 

15 MR. LOMAZOW: Thank you. 

16 CHRISTOPHER ANTON LANG 

17 called as a witness on behalf of 

18 the Complainant herein, having been first duly 

19 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 

20 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

21 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

22 Q Mr. Lang, and if you -- and on the 

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1 same note, if you can't hear me, please let me 

2 know. Okay? 

3 A You probably need to speak up, 

4 Counselor. 

5 Q Okay. 

6 A I too have a hearing disability. 

7 Q Okay. Just let me know --

8 A Okay. 

9 Q -- at any point if you can't hear 

10 me. Mr. Lang, please briefly describe your 

11 aviation background. 

12 A I've been in aviation for 48 

13 years. I currently have an airline transport 

14 pilot certificate. And I had to have that for 

15 scheduled multiengine service at a previous 

16 job. I also have a commercial pilot's license 

17 in single engine airplanes and gliders. And 

18 I also have a type rating in a Learjet. 

19 Q Okay. How long have you been 

20 employed by the FAA? 

21 A Nine years and one and a half 

22 months. 

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1 Q Okay. In what capacity are you 

2 employed by the FAA? 

3 A I'm an Aviation Safety Inspector, 

4 operations. 

5 Q Okay. And have you received any 

6 training in becoming an ASI? 

7 A Yes. We receive considerable 

8 training. 

9 Q Just briefly describe that 

10 training. 

11 A Pardon me? 

12 Q I'm sorry. Briefly describe that 

13 training. 

14 A We have -- we all are assigned to 

15 training at the FAA Academy in Oklahoma City 

16 for approximately three months. And then 

17 during our first three years, we are given 

1B on-the-job training in all the tasks that we 

19 are required to do. 

20 Q Okay. Do you have any training on 

21 performing surveillance of an air carrier? 

22 A Yes. Both at the Academy and also 

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1 on-the-job training. 

2 Q Okay. And what office are you 

3 currently assigned to? 

4 A The Denver Flight Standards 

5 District Office. 

6 Q Okay. And do you undergo any 

7 recurrent training? 

8 A We do have recurrent training 

9 every year that's assigned to us or we request 

10 that training usually at the FAA Academy in 

11 Oklahoma City. 

12 Q Okay. And what are your current 

13 duties? 

14 A My current duties are I'm a 

15 Principal Operations Inspector with oversight 

16 over Mountain Aviation and three other 

17 carriers. 

18 Q Okay. 

19 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I would 

20 like to offer Inspector Lang as an expert in 

21 aviation safety investigations. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Jackson, do 

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1 you want to volr dire? 

2 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: The witness will 

4 be received as an expert ln the area 

5 proffered. 

6 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

7 Q Okay. Mr. Lang, did you become 

8 involved in an investigation into Mountain 

9 Aviation concerning a check airman who had not 

10 received the required 135339 competency and 

11 proficiency check? 

12 A Yes, I did. 

13 Q Okay. And how were you involved 

14 with that investigation? 

15 A During routine surveillance of 

16 their training records and of the check airmen 

17 records, I discovered that a check airman for 

18 Mountain Aviation was had not had his 

19 observation by the FAA on a biannual basis. 

20 Q Okay. What information did you 

21 gather as part of your investigation? 

22 A I gathered the records on the 

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1 check airman, himself, as far as his last 

2 observation by the FAA and then those 

3 subsequent checks that he gave after he became 

4 uncurrent as a check airman. 

5 Q Okay. All right. Inspector, you 

6 have what's up there -- what's labeled up 

7 there as a witness copy. Please turn to what 

8 is marked as Cl for identification. Do you 

9 recognlze this document? 

10 A Yes, I do. 

11 Q What is it? 

12 A It's an FAA Form 8410-3 Airman 

13 Competency and Proficiency Check Form for an 

14 alrman named David G. Moss. It's given 

15 it's a check that's given by Mr. Rodney N. 

16 Getty. And he has signed the form. 

17 Q Okay. And what's the date of the 

18 check? 

19 A The date of the check is 13th of 

20 August 2008. 

21 Q Okay. Now please look at the 

22 bottom of the page under FAA inspector's 

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1 signature. Whose signature lS that? 

2 A That would be Inspector Al 

3 Hankins' signature. 

4 Q Okay. And what is the -- what is 

5 the relevance of that signature? 

6 A That would have been an 

7 observation given by Inspector Hankins of 

8 Mr. Getty on that date. 

9 Q Okay. And what does that satisfy? 

10 A That satisfies a requirement 

11 in CFR 135339A2. 

12 Q Okay. Now, this lS dated 

13 August 13, 2008. Did Mr. Getty have to 

14 undergo this observation again at some point 

15 in the future? 

16 A Under that regulation, Mr. Getty 

17 should have undergone that observation again 

18 no later than 30 September 2010. 

19 Q Okay. 

20 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 

21 what has been marked as C1 for identification 

22 be entered into evidence as C1? 

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1 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: C1 for 

3 identification is received into evidence as 

4 Complainant 1 S 1. 

5 (Complainant 1 s Exhibit No. 1 was 

6 received into evidence.) 

7 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

8 Q Inspector/ please turn to what 1s 

9 marked as C2 for identification? 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so you know/ 

11 Mr. Jackson/ when I -- I 1 m marking the pages 

12 1 of 2 1 2 of 2 1 and so forth. I put my ID in 

13 pencil on the form. And as a double-check/ I 

14 line through ID 1 write the date so when it 

15 appears on the Internet 1 it 1 s kind of a 

16 double-check just to -- for me to make sure. 

17 I 1 m also doing a spreadsheet that 

18 will appear in front of all the exhibits. And 

19 you 1 re welcome to inspect any of that at the 

20 end of the hearing just to make sure that we 

21 get everything correctly put into evidence. 

22 MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Your 

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1 Honor. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: So Exhibit 1 for 

3 identification is received into evidence as 

4 Exhibit 1. Go ahead, Counsel. 

5 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

6 Q Inspector, do you recognize 

7 document C2? 

8 A Yes, I do. It's again an FAA Form 

9 8410-3 Airman Competency and Proficiency Check 

10 for John A. Kuzneski as the airman. And it 

11 was given by Rodney N. Getty. And it is so 

12 signed by Rodney Getty. 

13 Q What is the date that these checks 

14 were given? 

15 A It is 16 December 2010. 

16 Q And what checks were given? 

17 A 135293 A check, 293 B check, a 

18 line check, 135299, and an IFR proficiency 

19 check, 135297, and the use of an autopilot 

20 Q Okay. 

21 A -- check. 

22 Q And just to be clear, who was 

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1 giving who the check? 

2 A Mr. Getty was giving Mr. Kuzneski 

3 the check. 

4 Q Okay. And Mr. Kuzneski is who? 

5 A He would be the airman who was 

6 receiving this check. 

7 Q Okay. What is the relevance of 

8 this document? 

9 A This document shows that the check 

10 was given after the time that Mr. Getty should 

11 have received his observation by the FAA under 

12 135339A2. 

13 Q Okay. 

14 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 

15 that what has been marked as C2 for 

16 identification be entered into evidence as C2? 

17 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 2 

19 for identification is rece~ved into evidence 

20 as Complainant's 2. 

21 (Complainant's Exhibit No. 2 was 

22 received into evidence.) 

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1 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

2 Q Inspector, please turn to what is 

3 marked as C3 for identification. Do you 

4 recognlze this document? 

5 A It is agaln another FAA Form 

6 8410-3 Airman Competency and Proficiency Check 

7 given to Airman Stephanie A. Wells by 

8 Rodney N. Getty and is so signed by Rodney N. 

9 Getty. 

10 Q What is the date of this check? 

11 A 21 December 2010. 

12 Q Okay. And what checks did 

13 Mr. Getty give on Ms. Wells? 

14 A He gave Ms. Wells a 135299 line 

15 check. 

16 Q Okay. What is the relevance of 

17 this document? 

18 A Once agaln, this date is after the 

19 date that Mr. Getty was no longer a valid 

20 check alrman because he had not had an 

21 observation by the FAA under 135339A2. 

22 Q Okay. 

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1 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 

2 that what's been marked as C3 be entered into 

3 evidence as C3? 

4 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 3 

6 for identification is received into evidence 

7 as Complainant's 3. 

8 (Complainant's Exhibit No. 3 was 

9 received into evidence.) 

10 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

11 Q Inspector, please turn to what is 

12 marked as C4 for identification. Do you 

13 recognize this document? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q What is it? 

16 A It's an FAA Form 8410-3 Airman 

17 Competency and Proficiency Check for Jeremy L. 

18 Sumpter as the airman given by Rodney N. Getty 

19 and so signed by Rodney N. Getty. 

20 Q What was the date of this check? 

21 A This check is given on the 26th of 

22 December 2010. 

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1 Q And what checks were given on this 

2 date? 

3 A 13 52 9 3 A, 13 52 9 3 B , 13 52 9 9 , and 

4 135 excuse me -- use of an autopilot check 

5 also. 

6 Q And what is the relevance of this 

7 document? 

8 A This check was given on the 26th 

9 of December, some days after Mr. Getty was 

10 once again an invalid check airman. 

11 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 

12 what has been marked as C4 be entered into 

13 evidence as C4. 

14 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant' s 4 

16 for identification is received into evidence 

17 as Complainant's 4. 

18 (Complainant's Exhibit No. 4 was 

19 received into evidence.) 

20 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

21 Q Inspector, please turn to what is 

22 marked as C5 for identification. Do you 

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1 recognlze this document? 

2 A This would be a 135 trip by 

3 Mountain Aviation. 

4 Q Okay. What -- do you know what 

5 dates this trip was accomplished? 

6 A Let's see. I have January 12, 

7 2011 on the top of the form. 

8 Q Okay. 

9 A And then then there is a 

10 January 18, 2011 on the top of the form also. 

11 Q Okay. What is the relevance of 

12 this document{ 

13 A Mr. Sumpter served as the. SIC on 

14 this particular flight. 

15 Q Is that Jeremy Sumpter? 

16 A That's Jeremy Sumpter. 

17 Q Okay. And why is that significant 

18 to your investigation? 

19 A Mr. Sumpter was not qualified 

20 under 135 due to the fact that he had been 

21 given a check by ·Mr. Getty. And Mr. Getty was 

22 an invalid check airman at that time. 

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1 Q Okay. 

2 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 

3 that what has been marked as C5 for 

4 identification be entered in as C5 as 

5 evidence. 

6 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant' s 5 

8 for identification is received into evidence 

9 as Complainant's 5. 

10 (Complainant's Exhibit No. 5 was 

11 received into evidence.) 

12 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

13 Q Inspector, please turn to what is 

14 marked as C6 for identification. Do you 

15 recognize this document? 

16 A Yes, I do. 

17 Q And what is this document? 

18 A This is a letter of investigation 

19 that I wrote to Mountain Aviation and 

20 Mr. Bjelkevig. 

21 Q Okay. Did you receive a response 

22 to this letter of investigation? 

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1 A Yes, we did. 

2 Q Okay. 

3 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 

4 that what has been marked as C6 for 

5 identification be entered into evidence as C6. 

6 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 6 

8 for identification is received into evidence 

9 as Complainant's 6. 

10 (Complainant's Exhibit No. 6 was 

11 received into evidence.) 

12 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

13 Q Inspector, please turn to what is 

14 marked as C7 for identification. Do you 

15 recognize this document? 

16 A This is a response document to the 

17 letter of investigation from Mr. Emmerson, I 

18 believe, of Mountain Aviation. 

19 Q Okay. Now, without having you 

20 assessitate (phonetic) the whole thing, did 

21 they indicate whether they took any remedial 

22 measures in this letter of investigation? 

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1 A Yes, they did. 

2 Q Okay. Did you take those measures 

3 into account when you were writing up the 

4 case? 

5 A Yes, I did. 

6 Q Okay. Inspector, you'll see at 

7 the bottom of the page 1, 2, and 3. Can you 

8 read No. 1? 

9 A No. 1, the check airman that is in 

10 question was immediately suspended from any 

11 and all checking activity until a status could 

12 be ascertained. Mountain Aviation again 

13 requests a 24-month observation from the FAA 

14 for this check airman as soon as possible. 

15 Q Okay. 

16 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 

17 that what has been marked as C7 for 

18 identification be entered into evidence as C7? 

19 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 7 

21 for identification is received into evidence 

22 as Complainant's 7. 

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1 (Complainant's Exhibit No. 7 was 

2 received into evidence.) 

3 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

4 Q Inspector, did there come a time 

5 after receipt of this letter of investigation 

6 that you met with any individuals from 

7 Mountain Aviation? 

8 A Yes, we did. 

9 Q Okay. Who did you meet with? 

10 A I met with Mr. Bjelkevig, 

11 Mr. Emmerson, and Mr. Taft, who was the 

12 recordkeeper. At that time Mr. Emmerson was 

13 the chief pilot. 

14 Q Okay. Where did that meeting take 

15 place? 

16 A This .meeting took place at 

17 Mountain Aviation in Broomfield, Colorado. 

18 Q Okay. Can you briefly describe 

19 that meeting? 

20 A Basically, we told them what we 

21 found and the reason that we were having the 

22 meeting and that we found a possible violation 

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1 of FAR 135339A2. 

2 Q Okay. 

3 A And they expressed some confusion 

4 about that which 1s described in 135339A2. 

5 Q Okay. At that meeting did they 

6 indicate to you that they had a -- what's 

7 called an Aircrew Designated Examiner? 

8 A No, they did not. 

9 Q Okay. Did they indicate at that 

10 meeting that anyone from the FAA told them 

11 that they had an Aircrew Designated Examiner? 

12 A No. 

13 Q Okay. Inspector, please turn to 

14 what is marked as C8 for identification. 

15 MR . LOMAZOW : And, Your Honor, 

16 before I go on with this -- this 1s our 

17 Sanction Guidance. I'm just going to ask a 

18 few brief questions about it. Would you like 

19 me to admit it into evidence? Or should we 

20 just take judicial notice of it? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Jackson, my --

22 the Court's position is, with respect to the 

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1 Sanction Guidance, rather than fill up my 

2 drawers in my office with copies of this, I 

3 take judicial notice, unless there's an 

4 objection. I generally mark it for 

5 identification and don't receive it as 

6 evidence. 

7 In addition, when we're -- when I 

8 write the decision, we always consult the copy 

9 of the Sanction Guidance in force at the time 

10 of the violation, assumlng that there's a 

11 violation found. 

12 So that ensures that, A) we're 

13 looking at the right copy and, B) I don't have 

14 cabinets full of multiple copies of the 

15 Sanction Guidance .. So the Court will take 

16 judicial notice of the Sanction Guidance. 

17 Go ahead. 

18 MR. LOMAZOW: Go ahead? 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. 

20 MR . LOMAZOW : Oh. Okay. I'm 

21 sorry. 

22 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

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1 Q Inspector, as part of your duties, 

2 are you required to be generally familiar 

3 with FAA Order 2153B? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Okay. Turning to 2153B, please 

6 turn to the page marked B3 at the bottom of 

7 the page. What does this page show? 

8 A It shows different groups of air 

9 carriers and if they're a large or small 

10 business. 

11 Q Okay. During your investigation, 

12 did you conclude whether Mountain is a small 

13 or large business concern? 

14 A Mountain Aviation would be a small 

15 business group 3. 

16 Q Okay. Please turn to what is 

17 marked as B4 at the bottom of the page, which 

18 is the next page. What does this page show? 

19 A It shows the sanctions that would 

20 be covered for group 3 for violations under 

21 49 U.S.C. Section 46301A5 and A. 

22 Q Okay. Now, what is the sanction 

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1 range for a small business concern? 

2 A This sanction range goes from 

3 $3,300 to a maximum of $42,900. 

4 Q Okay. So you got to start with 

5 the moderate and go to the maximum? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Okay. And what -- I'm sorry, 

8 Inspector. Is that -- the maximum, would that 

9 be 11,000 here? 

10 A I think the maximum shows 11,000 

11 on this particular page. 

12 Q Okay. So what would the median of 

13 3,300 and 11,000 be? 

14 A Oh. Roughly $6,000. 

15 Q Okay. If my math is correct, off 

16 the top of my head, I think that's 7,150. 

17 A Okay. 

18 Q Now, 1s that per violation? 

19 A That would be per violation, yes. 

20 Q Okay. How many checks did Rodney 

21 Getty administer on behalf of Mountain when he 

22 was not qualified to do so? 

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1 A The evidence that we have gone 

2 over shows three checks. 

3 Q Okay. How many checks all 

4 together? 

5 A We have 3 airmen checked, and then 

6 on the order of 12 total checks --

7 Q Okay. 

8 A -- if you go by regulation. 

9 Q Okay. So if we take the moderate 

10 range, 7,150, times 12, at the very least 

11 that's go1ng to be a larger sanction than 

12 21,450? 

13 A Yes, it is. 

14 Q Okay. Now, in Mountain' s response 

15 to the LOI, they indicated they took certain 

16 steps, certain remedial steps. Did you 

17 consider that to be above and beyond what you 

18 would expect from an air carrier? 

19 A I would expect that of any air 

20 carrier. 

21 Q Okay. In your opinion, is there a 

22 safety concern for an air carrier using an 

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1 unqualified check airman for flight checks? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Okay. 

4 MR. LOMAZOW: No further questions 

5 for this witness, Your Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 

7 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

8 BY MR. JACKSON: 

9 Q Good morning, Inspector Lang. My 

10 name 1s Kent Jackson. I'm representing 

11 Mountain Aviation. 

12 A Good morning. 

13 Q The phrase Aircrew Designated 

14 Examiner, are you familiar with it? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Where is it defined? 

17 A It's defined in 135339. And I 

18 believe it's defined 1n the 121, as far as 

19 it's in those regs. The definition, I don't 

20 think you're going to find it in part 1 of 

21 definitions. 

22 Q Aircrew Designated Examiner is not 

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1 mentioned anywhere in,part 183, is it? 

2 A Not that I know of. 

3 Q It's not mentioned anywhere in 

4 part 60, is it? 

5 A Not that I know of. 

6 Q Does part 135.337 define what a 

7 check airman is? 

8 A I believe it does. 

9 Q And --

10 A I don't have the reg in front of 

11 me. But I believe it does. 

12 Q Would you like to have the 

13 regulation in front of you? 

14 A Pardon me? 

15 Q I can hand you the regulation if 

16 you'd --

17 A I'd love to have the regulations. 

18 Q This is marked for identification. 

19 There you go. 

20 MR. JACKSON: Kyle, I'm not going 

21 to offer this. But I'm just going to mark --

22 MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. That's fine. 

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1 MR. JACKSON: it for 

2 identification. If he'd rather have his own, 

3 that's fine too. May I approach the witness? 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Thank you. 

5 BY MR. JACKSON: 

6 Q I hand you what's been marked for 

7 identification which is Respondent's Exhibit 

8 No. 7. If you would, Inspector, please take 

9 a moment and review that. Does that appear to 

10 be Federal Aviation Regulation 135.337? 

11 A Okay. 

12 Q In A1 does it define what a check 

13 airman aircraft is? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q What lS it? 

16 A A1 says, A check airman aircraft 

17 is a person who's qualified to conduct flight 

18 checks in an aircraft 1n a flight simulator or 

19 in a flight training device for a particular 

20 type of aircraft. 

21 Q You testified about check airmen 

22 for Mountain Aviation named Mr. Getty and 

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1 Mr. Taft; lS that correct? 

2 A That's correct. 

3 Q Were they check airmen in 

4 aircraft? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Were they check airmen ln 

7 simulators? 

8 A I believe he was if his 

9 designation as a check airman said all checks. 

10 Q You might go ahead and take a 

11 moment and review Complainant's Exhibit C9, 

12 just to make sure you're comfortable with that 

13 item. Have you had the opportunity to review 

14 Exhibit C9? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q So are you certain that Mr. Getty 

17 and Mr. Taft by these letters were authorized 

18 as check airmen in simulators? 

19 A It gives two aircraft. And then 

20 it says, Check pilot all checks. 

21 Q Okay. So are·you certain whether 

22 they were simulator check airmen? 

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1 A It doesn't mention simulator. But 

2 it says, Check pilot all checks. 

3 Q All right. FAR Section 135337 and 

4 135339 and I can refresh your recollection 

5 on 339, if you'd like. Would it assist you to 

6 review a copy of 339, as well? 

7 A Yeah. Sure. I'd love to have a 

8 copy of 339. 

9 MR. JACKSON: May I approach? 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, thank you. 

11 BY MR. JACKSON: 

12 Q Inspector, have you had the 

13 opportunity to review'the two regulations? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q These two regulations together 

16 state the specific knowledge and skill 

17 requirements to serve as a check airman; isn't 

18 that true? 

19 A Correct. 

20 Q Is there anything missing from 

21 that list? Any requirements you would require 

22 of a check airman that aren't included there? 

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1 A I'm sorry. I didn't understand 

2 your question. And can you speak up just a 

3 little, please? 

4 Q I do apologize. Is this better? 

5 A Okay. That's better. 

6 Q All right. Federal Aviation 

7 Regulations 135.337 and 339 contain the 

8 requirements for an individual to be 

9 designated as a check airman; is that correct? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q Is there anything missing from 

12 those requirements? 

13 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I'm 

14 going to object to that question. It's vague 

15 as to what is missing. Are we talking 

16 grammar? Or are we talking requirements? 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

18 Overruled. You can answer, if you understand 

19 the question. 

20 THE WITNESS: I don't think 

21 there's anything missing from what I can read 

22 on 339A2. Okay? It says the person has to go 

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1 through initial transition check a1rman 

2 training and pr1or to checking has to conduct 

3 a proficiency or competency check under the 

4 observation of an FAA inspector. And then it 

5 goes on to say, Or an Aircrew Designated 

6 Examiner employed by the operator. 

7 BY MR. JACKSON: 

8 Q What additional requirements do 

9 those regulations state to be designated as an 

10 Aircrew Designated Examiner employed by the 

11 company? 

12 A They don't state, as far as I 

13 know. 

14 Q Check airmen are not required 

15 under FAR part 135, are they? 

16 A They are not required. They are 

17 usually requested by the air carrier. 

18 Q So it would be an incorrect 

19 statement to say that check airmen are 

20 required under part 135? 

21 A They're required to perform 

22 certain things according to the CFR. 

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1 Q And if the +Federal Aviation 

2 Inspectors not going to perform those duties, 

3 correct? 

4 A That's correct. 

5 Q Check airmen are not involved in 

6 issuing airmen certificates or ratings, are 

7 they? 

8 A No, they are not. 

9 Q Part 135 check airmen only conduct 

10 checks required under part 135; isn't that 

11 correct? 

12 A That's correct. 

13 Q An Aircrew Designated Examiner, as 

14 referenced in FAR 135.339A2, only conducts 

15 checks required under part 135; isn't that 

16 correct? 

17 A If he is so designated under that 

18 part, yes. 

19 Q In the course of your 

20 investigation, did you compile an enforcement 

21 investigative report? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q Is it customary 1n compiling an 

2 enforcement investigative report to make a 

3 record of phone conferences? 

4 A It would be, yes. 

5 Q Is it customary in compiling an 

6 enforcement investigative report to make a 

7 record of meetings? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q You didn't make any record of a 

10 teleconference phone call meeting in the 

11 enforcement investigative report on this 

12 matter, did you? 

13 A No, I did not. 

14 Q You didn't include in your 

15 enforcement investigative report any guidance 

16 from the flight standards information manual 

17 service FAA or 8900.10, did you? 

18 A No. 

19 Q You referred to a letter that you 

20 received from Mountain Aviation. I believe it 

21 was signed by Gary Emmerson on behalf of Rich 

22 Bjelkevig -- I apologize. 

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1 MR. BJELKEVIG: Very good. It's a 

2 good solid Norwegian name. 

3 BY MR. JACKSON: 

4 Q And I believe it's already been 

5 admitted as Complainant's Exhibit No. 7. And 

6 let me know if you've had an opportunity to 

7 return to that. 

8 A Okay. 

9 Q In the letter Mr. Emmerson stated 

10 that, On January 19th the FAA was at our 

11 office to review the documents we had on file 

12 regarding this case. 

13 Is that the meeting you referred 

14 to on your direct examination? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q But you have no record of that 

17 meeting 1n your enforcement investigative 

18 report, other than this letter; 1s that 

19 correct? 

20 A That's correct. 

21 Q Did you have any phone calls with 

22 anyone from Mountain Aviation between January 

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1 19th and the issuance of the letter of 

2 investigation that's already been admitted as 

3 Complainant's Exhibit 6 which was dated 

4 January 31st? 

5 A I don't recall that. 

6 Q Do you recall telling anyone from 

7 Mountain Aviation before between the 

8 meeting on January 19th and before the 

9 issuance of the letter of investigation that 

10 they were right? 

11 A That they were right? 

12 Q Yes. 

13 A That Mountain Aviation was 

14 correct? 

15 Q Yes. 

16 A No, I do not. 

17 Q You don't recall? Or you never 

18 have? 

19 A I don't recall. 

20 Q Okay. And how many Aircrew 

21 Designated Examiners under 135. 339A2 have you 

22 designated? 

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1 A I've not designated any. 

2 Q Do you know of any --

3 A No. I 

4 Q -- under part 135? 

5 A I do not know of any. 

6 MR. JACKSON: No further 

7 questions. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 

9 MR . LOMAZOW : Nothing further, 

10 Your Honor. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you finished 

12 with this witness --

13 MR. LOMAZOW: I 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: -- at this time? 

15 MR. LOMAZOW: I am finished with 

16 this witness. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to 

18 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

19 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

20 hearing. You're free to step down. You're 

21 excused. 

22 Counsel, I've got what appear to 

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1 be exhibits tucked in the pocket of the front. 

2 MR. LOMAZOW: Oh. Okay. You can 

3 probably toss those. Or you can hand them to 

4 me, if you would like. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, are 

6 they (indiscernible) and competency 

7 proficiency checks for Airmen Wells, Jones --

8 MR. LOMAZOW: Those are just 

9 copies, Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: -- Rex 

11 MR. LOMAZOW: Yeah. Those are 

12 just extra copies. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So as not 

14 to confuse, I'm going to 

15 MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. So you 

17 only have 10 -- 11 exhibits; is that correct? 

18 MR. LOMAZOW: All together I 

19 only --

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: At this time? 

21 MR. LOMAZOW: Exactly. Yes. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Call 

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1 your next witness. 

2 MR. LOMAZOW: The People call 

3 or -- old habits. The Complainant calls Al 

4 Hankins. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise 

6 your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the 

7 testimony you give will be the truth, the 

8 whole truth, and nothing but the truth under 

9 penalty of perjury? 

10 THE WITNESS: I do. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

12 State your full name for the record and spell 

13 your first and last name. 

14 THE WITNESS: My name is Alvin 

15 H a y e s H a n k i n s 

16 That's A-1-v-i-n, H-a-n-k-i-n-s. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, I'm 

18 looking at the airmen competency 

19 (indiscernible) checks. And 1n the third 

20 blank down on the right-hand side they appear 

21 to have birth dates. So what I'm going to ask 

22 you to do when we take our first break is to 

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1 review all these documents to make sure we --

2 that we've redacted that information. 

3 I've got a black magic marker. 

4 Also double-check on some of these letters to 

5 make sure that the letter is going to the 

6 business address, not a home address. That 

7 happens. So, you know, that's one of the 

8 reasons I double-check it myself. 

9 MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

11 ALVIN HAYES HANKINS 

12 called as a witness on behalf of 

13 the Complainant herein, having been first duly 

14 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 

15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

16 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

17 Q Mr. Hankins, where briefly 

18 describe your aviation background. 

19 A Yes. I'm an Aviation Safety 

2 0 Inspector at the Rocky Mountain CMO. And I've 

21 been there since 1989. Prior to that in the 

22 Colorado area I've owned aviation businesses 

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1 and operated and been chief pilot, chief 

2 flight instructor, and so forth for many 

3 aviation enterprises. 

4 Q Okay. Do you hold any airmen 

5 certificate ratings? 

6 A I do. I hold an air transport 

7 certificate. 

8 Q Okay. How long have you been 

9 employed by the FAA? 

10 A Since '89. 

11 Q Okay. Now, are you familiar with 

12 an investigation concerning Mountain Aviation 

13 and their use of a check airman who the FAA lS 

14 alleging was not qualified to g1ve flight 

15 six flight checks between December 16, 2010 

16 and December 26, 2010? 

17 A I am aware of it. 

18 Q Okay. Inspector, please turn to 

19 what is marked as C9 for identification. And 

20 these are two documents, one dated 

21 September 5, 2006, the other dated January 18, 

22 2008. 

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1 A I'm there. 

2 Q Okay. Do you recognize the first 

3 document? 

4 A Yes, I do. 

5 Q Okay. What 1s this document? 

6 A That's a designation of check 

7 airman letter issued to Mountain Aviation for 

8 Rodney Getty. 

9 Q Okay. And who issued this 

10 designation of check airman? 

11 A I did. 

12 Q Okay. And what 1s the -- what 

13 does this letter do? 

14 A This letter allows Rodney Getty to 

15 provide flight checks for currency to the 

16 pilots of Mountain Aviation. 

17 Q Okay. The language check pilot 

18 all checks, what does that -- what does that 

19 mean? 

20 A That means that he's allowed to 

21 give both the 299 checks, which are line 

22 checks, 297 checks, which is the instrument 

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1 check, 293A and B, which are the aircraft 

2 knowledge tests, to airmen for the company. 

3 Q Okay. Now, when it says he 1s 

4 approved as a check pilot all checks, does 

5 that mean that Rodney Getty was approved as 

6 a -- an Aircrew Designated Examiner? 

7 A No. 

8 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 

9 that what has been marked -- actually, no. I 

10 withdraw that. 

11 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

12 Q Please turn to the second page. 

13 And what -- do you recognize this document? 

14 A Yes, I do. 

15 Q And what is this? 

16 A This is a letter for Oren Cargill 

17 Taft, or Chip Taft as I remember, as a check 

18 airman also for the Beech 90 and the Beech 200 

19 aircraft and -- for Mountain Aviation. 

20 Q Okay. And again, the -- when it 

21 says he's approved for check pilot all checks, 

2 2 does that mean he's approved for the same 

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1 checks? 

2 A The same checks that Rodney was, 

3 yes. 

4 Q Okay. Did you confer Aircrew 

5 Designated Examiner status on Mr. Taft with 

6 this letter? 

7 A No. I did not. 

8 Q And why not? 

9 A Mr~ Taft, in order-- he's not a 

10 pilot examiner. In order -- in order to --

11 first of all, we don't have Aircrew Designated 

12 Examiners 1n this operation. 

13 Q Okay. 

14 A In order to have an Aircrew 

15 Designated Examiner, which -- which there is 

16 not one, the person would have to be a 

17 designated pilot examiner, which he is not. 

18 Q Okay. So would the all check --

19 when it says here, Check pilot all checks, 

20 would that language authorize Oren Taft to 

21 observe Rodney Getty perform a proficiency or 

22 competency check in order for Mr. Getty to 

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1 satisfy 135339A2? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Okay. 

4 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor/ I ask 

5 that what has been marked as C9 for 

6 identification be entered into evidence as C9. 

7 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: C9 for 

9 identification is received into evidence as 

10 Complainant 1 S 9. 

11 (Complainant 1 S Exhibit No. 9 was 

12 received into evidence.) 

13 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

14 Q Inspector/ what --I don 1 t know if 

15 you recall exactly off the top of your head/ 

16 but what dates were you the POI for Mountain? 

17 A 

18 Q Approximately. 

19 A I 1 m guessing 1 05 -- maybe 1

04 

20 through 1 08. 

21 Q Okay. And in the time that you 

22 were their POI/ did they have an ADE program? 

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1 A No. 

2 Q Okay. Were any of their check 

3 airmen ADEs? 

4 A No. 

5 Q Okay. Now -- but when you were 

6 Mountain's POI, did you ever tell them that 

7 they either had an ADE program or an Aircrew 

8 Designated Examiner? 

9 A No. 

10 Q Okay. Now, did anyone from 

11 Mountain ever call you to ask if they actually 

12 had an ADE program? 

13 A No. 

14 Q Okay. If Mountain had called you 

15 to ask that, what would you have told them? 

16 A They weren't qualified to be --

17 they weren't even a pilot examiner. 

18 Q Okay. Now, in your time as the --

19 well, POI I that's short for Principal 

20 Operations Inspector for Mountain, did you 

21 ever observe any of their check airmen 

22 conducting a competency or proficiency check 

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1 of another pilot in order to satisfy the 

2 requirement of 135339A2? 

3 A Negative. No. 

4 Q Okay. I'm sorry. Did you ever, 

5 personally yourself, observe one of their 

6 pilots conduct the proficiency or competency 

7 check in order to satisfy i35339A2? 

8 A No. 

9 Q Okay. Do you know how long 

10 Mountain has been operating as an air carrier 

11 for? 

12 A Oh. I'm guessing long before I 

13 became their POI. I'm not positive. 

14 Q Okay. And in the past, based on 

15 your knowledge, have FAA inspectors -- under 

16 135339A2 it says the observation can be 

17 conducted by an FAA inspector or an Aircrew 

18 Designated Examiner, correct? 

19 A That's correct. 

20 Q Who ln the past did these 

21 observations for Mountain Aviation? 

22 A Always an FAA inspector. 

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1 Q Okay. Did you ever do the 

2 A Yes, I have. But not for 339A. 

3 This is for 299 and 297 and 293 checks. 

4 Q Okay. In your time as POI for 

5 Mountain, did they ever express confusion, 

6 whether verbally or in writing, as to the 

7 requirements of 135339A2? 

8 A This the first I've heard of 

9 the 339A2 is in this situation right here. 

10 Q Okay. 

11 MR. LOMAZOW: No further 

12 questions, Your Honor. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 

14 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

15 BY MR. JACKSON: 

16 Q Good morning, Inspector. 

17 A Yes, sir. Good morning. 

18 Q My name is Kent Jackson. I 

19 represent Mountain Aviation. At any time 

2 0 prior to today, have you reviewed an af f ida vi t 

21 of Gary Emmerson in support of Respondent's 

22 answer to Complainant's motion for summary 

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1 judgment? 

2 A Say that again? 

3 Q Prior to today, were you given to 

4 review an affidavit of Gary Emmerson 1n 

5 support of Respondent's answer to 

6 Complainant's motion for summary judgment? 

7 A I believe I've seen it. 

8 Q Okay. 

9 MR. JACKSON: May I approach? 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

11 MR. JACKSON: (Indiscernible.) 

12 BY MR. JACKSON: 

13 Q Sir, I hand you what's been marked 

14 for identification purposes as Respondent's 

15 Exhibit No. 6. Please take a moment and 

16 review it and refresh your recollection. 

17 A Okay. 

18 Q Okay. Direct your attention to 

19 paragraph 2. It states, During his services 

2 0 our POI on multiple occasions, I contacted 

21 Inspector Al Hankins by phone attempting to 

22 schedule th~ 14 CFR Section 135.339A2 

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1 observation checks. 

2 Is that true? 

3 A That's incorrect. That 1s not 

4 true. 

5 Q Why do you say that? 

6 A Because 135339 did not apply to 

7 Mountain Aviation. 

8 Q Let's make sure we are on the same 

9 page. 

10 A Okay. 

11 Q 135339A2 requires a check airman 

12 to undergo an observation by either a Federal 

13 Aviation Inspector like yourself --

14 A Yes. 

15 Q -- or something called an Aircrew 

16 Designated Examiner employed by the company. 

17 So in this first sentence when he says, During 

18 his services our POI on multiple occasions, I 

19 contacted Inspector Al Hankins by phone 

20 attempting to schedule the 135339A2 checks --

21 if he means for you to come and observe a 

22 check airman as required by 135339A2, is it 

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1 your testimony that that never occurred? 

2 A That never occurred. 

3 Q Is it your testimony that Mountain 

4 Aviation never had an observation check by you 

5 as required by this rule --

6 A You're mixing this up. I observed 

7 checks for the 299, 297, and 293. In order to 

8 be -- in order to have a 135339 check, the 

9 person would need to be a pilot examiner, 

10 which they are not. 

11 Q Is the copy of 135.339 still up 

12 there? 

13 A I don't -- I don't know. 

14 Q I direct your attention to what's 

15 been marked for identification purposes 

16 Respondent's No. 8. Inspector, you've 

17 testified that you're familiar with this 

18 investigation, correct? 

19 A That's correct. 

20 Q The violations alleged by the FAA 

21 flow from the FAA's allegation that a 

22 particular check airman at Mountain Aviation 

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1 had not undergone an observation by an FAA 

2 inspector or an Aircrew Designated Examiner 

3 employed by the company. Is that correct? 

4 A That's correct. 

5 Q That's why we're here? 

6 A That's correct. 

7 Q So you're say1ng that Mountain 

8 Aviation never had an observation check as 

9 required by this rule? 

10 A That's not what I said. 

11 Q Okay. Please clarify. 

12 A I said that I have observed 

13 Mountain Aviation check airmen. Period. 

14 Q Have you observed them for the 

15 purpose of compliance with the rule that 

16 requires an observation of a check airman? 

17 A I have complied with that by 

18 giving them a check personally. They don't 

19 have an ADE program. 

20 Q I'm not asking you --

21 A Okay. 

22 Q -- if they have an ADE program. 

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1 A Okay. I have observed -- yes, I 

2 have observed them. 

3 Q So in the past, prior to 2010, you 

4 were their Principal Operations Inspector, 

5 correct? 

6 A That's correct. 

7 Q And you did at some point during 

8 that period observe a check alrman from 

9 Mountain Aviation do his duty. For example 

10 A Now -- wait. Doing his duty? 

11 Q Performing his check airman 

12 functions. And you observed that so that they 

13 could comply with 135339A2. 

14 A No. 

15 Q Would you look at Complainant's 

16 Exhibit No. 1? 

17 A I don't have that here. Is this 

18 in this 

19 Q It's in the notebook 

20 A In the notebook? 

21 Q if you will. 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q And can you tell us what that 

2 exhibit is? 

3 A This is a flight check form for 

4 Rodney Getty -- I'm sorry -- for David Moss in 

5 which the check was observed -- let's see 

6 here. 

7 Q Who was it observed by? 

8 A It was observed by me. It was a 

9 check airman check ride for Dave Moss. 

10 Q All right. Did Mountain Aviation 

11 comply with the observation check required by 

12 135339A2 in Complainant's Exhibit No. 1? 

13 A No. This is for check 135.297 and 

14 .299. 

15 Q You testified that you're not 

16 quite sure of when your service as Principal 

17 Operations Inspector for Mountain Aviation 

18 ended. Was it 2008 or 2009? 

19 A I'm not positive. I think it was 

20 2009, I believe it was. 

21 Q Okay. And what was your 

22 involvement in this investigation? 

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1 A As a witness only. In this 

2 investigation for this case? 

3 Q Yes. 

4 A Just a witness. 

5 Q Okay. Let me refer you aga1n to 

6 what's been marked as Respondent's Exhibit No. 

7 6 and again to paragraph 2, the second 

8 sentence where Mr. Emmerson says, During these 

9 calls, InspectorAl Hankins sometimes said he 

10 was unable to schedule an observation of 

11 checking during the required 24 months and 

12 asked if a check airman had administered a 

13 check ride to another check airman in the 

14 proceeding 24 months. 

15 Do you see that sentence? 

16 A You were on 6 you say? 

17 Q I'm sorry. Paragraph 2 I second 

18 sentence. Oh. I'm sorry. Please please 

19 refer to Respondent's Exhibit No. 6. It's 

20 what you looked at before. 

21 A Okay. 

22 Q The affidavit of Gary Emmerson. 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q All right. Please look at the 

3 second sentence in paragraph 2 that 

4 says, During these calls, InspectorAl Hankins 

5 sometimes said he was unable to schedule an 

6 observation of checking during the required 24 

7 months and asked if a check airman had 

8 administered a check ride to another check 

9 airman in the proceeding 24 months. 

10 Do you see that sentence? 

11 A I see that. 

12 Q All right. Is that statement 

13 true? 

14 A No. 

15 Q That statement is not true? 

16 A That's correct. 

17 Q So you were never contacted by 

18 Gary Emmerson to schedule an observation check 

19 where you were being requested to observe a 

20 check airman conduct a check ride; is that 

21 true? 

22 A That's -- repeat that, please? 

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1 Q All right. Were you ever 

2 contacted by Gary Emmerson to schedule your 

3 observation of a check airman conducting a 

4 check ride at Mountain Aviation? 

5 A I was, yes. 

6 Q Okay. But you never said, I can't 

7 come, and ask the question in sentence 2, 

8 paragraph 2 that I'm talking about? 

9 A I have never denied them a check 

10 ride. I don't quite understand what you're 

11 getting at here. 

12 Q Did you ever ask them whether the 

13 check airmen had flown with each other? Had 

14 checked each other? 

15 A No. I never asked them that. 

16 Q You never asked them that? 

17 A Because it wasn't possible. 

18 Q What do you mean it's not 

19 possible? 

20 A A check airman cannot check 

21 another check airman. That check airman has 

22 to be observed by an FAA inspector. 

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1 Q Is it your testimony that one 

2 Mountain Aviation check airman cannot give a 

3 135.297 ride to another check airman? 

4 A That's not the question. 

5 Q All right. Let's make sure we're 

6 on 

7 A He can do that, yes. 

8 Q He can do that? 

9 A Yes. A 297 check. 

10 Q That's right. All right. So it's 

11 your testimony that you never told Mountain 

12 Aviation that they could count that as an 

13 observation check? 

14 A I never told them that, no. 

15 Q All right. The end of your 

16 service as Principal Operations Inspector for 

17 Mountain Aviation 2009? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q Was that at the time when you were 

20 terminated by the Federal Aviation 

21 Administration? 

22 A Probably, yes. 

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1 Q Okay. You were subsequently 

2 rehired? 

3 A No. That's not true. 

4 Q Did you engage in any legal 

5 proceeding to get your job back? 

6 MR. LOMAZOW: Objection, Your 

7 Honor, relevance. 

8 MR. JACKSON: It goes to 

9 credibility, Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll allow limited 

11 inquiry. 

12 MR. JACKSON: Okay. 

13 BY MR. JACKSON: 

14 Q Did you engage in any legal 

15 proceeding to get your job at the FAA back? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q All right. Have those legal 

18 proceedings concluded? 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me ask a 

20 preliminary question. Is the legal proceeding 

21 in the public record or not? 

22 MR. JACKSON: (Indiscernible.) 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Pardon me? 

2 MR. JACKSON: I have it from 

3 Westlaw, if you'd like to see it. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: So it' s in the 

5 public record. 

6 MR. JACKSON: Yes. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: I just want to 

8 make sure I'm not dealing with something 

9 that's confidential. 

10 MR. JACKSON: I understand. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. You 

12 can answer the question. You may want to 

13 restate the question. 

14 THE WITNESS: Please restate the 

15 question? 

16 BY MR. JACKSON: 

17 Q Certainly. And so that we're all 

18 on the same page --

19 MR. JACKSON: May I approach? 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

21 BY MR. JACKSON: 

22 Q I'm handing you what's been marked 

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1 for identification purposes Respondent's 

2 Exhibit No. 9. Does this appear to be a 

3 decision of the Merit Systems Protection Board 

4 in the matter of Alvin H. Hankins versus the 

5 Department of Transportation dated 

6 September 11, 2012? 

7 A That's correct. 

8 Q Are you the Alvin H. Hankins named 

9 ln this document? 

10 A I am. 

11 Q Did this order require the FAA to 

12 pay you back pay that you were entitled to? 

13 A That's -- they did. 

14 Q And --

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. Was 

16 the answer yes or no? 

17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

19 BY MR. JACKSON: 

20 Q And so the FAA has, in accordance 

21 with the order, paid you back pay you were 

22 entitled to? 

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1 A That's correct. 

2 Q When did you finally rece1ve the 

3 check? 

4 MR. LOMAZOW: Objection, Your 

5 Honor. When he received the check? What's 

6 the relevance to that to this? 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm not sure that 

8 that's relevant. I mean, I'll allow you to 

9 argue. But the -- what's relevant to me 1s 

10 the pleadings in the order. 

11 MR. JACKSON: I understand. I 

12 understand. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: If the matter is 

14 under appeal, then that would be something 

15 else. 

16 BY MR. JACKSON: 

17 Q This order does note that you were 

18 involuntarily terminated on October 16, 2009 i 

19 1s that correct? 

20 A That's correct. 

21 MR. JACKSON: All right. No 

22 further questions. 

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1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

2 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

3 Q Mr. Hankins, when you were 

4 terminated from the FAA, did that have 

5 anything to do with your position as a POI? 

6 A Negative. No. 

7 Q Okay. And again, did at any time 

8 you ever advise Mountain that they had an 

9 Aircrew Designated Examiner? 

10 A No. 

11 Q Okay. 

12 MR. LOMAZOW: No further questions 

13 for this witness, Your Honor. However, I ask 

14 that he remain on record, as I might call him 

15 later as a rebuttal witness. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, he won't 

17 stay on the record. I mean, he can I 

18 understand what you're saying. Do you have 

19 any further questions of this witness at this 

20 time? 

21 MR. JACKSON: I would like to ask 

22 one redirect (sic) . 

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1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 

2 BY MR. JACKSON: 

3 Q Inspector Hankins, 1n the legal 

4 proceedings that led to the order dated 

5 September 11, 2012, did the FAA ever accuse 

6 you of absenteeism? 

7 A Did they ever accuse me? Yes, 

8 they did. 

9 Q Thank you. 

10 MR. LOMAZOW: No further 

11 questions, Your Honor. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 

13 MR. LOMAZOW: No further 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you are 

15 instructed not to discuss your testimony with 

16 anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

17 hearing. The FAA has indicated that you may 

18 be recalled at some subsequent point. So 

19 please be sure to follow my admonition and 

20 don't discuss your testimony. You can step 

21 down. 

22 Counsel? 

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1 MR . LOMAZOW : Your Honor, I do 

2 have one more witness to call, but considering 

3 it's 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: How long do you 

5 think that will take? That answers that 

6 question. Let's take a break until I've 

7 got about 26 minutes after. Let's take a 

8 break under 20 minutes till 11:00, at which 

9 time we'll go back on the record. We're off 

10 the record. 

11 (Off the record for about a half 

12 hour and then back on the record.) 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're back on the 

14 record. Call your next witness. Sorry for 

15 the delay. I got tied up in the office. 

16 MR. LOMAZOW: The Complainant 

17 calls Peter Popp to the stand. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise 

19 your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the 

2 0 testimony you give will be the truth, the 

21 whole truth, and nothing but the truth under 

22 penalty of perjury? 

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1 THE WITNESS: I do. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

3 State your full name for the record and spell 

4 your first and last name. 

5 THE WITNESS: My name is Peter 

6 Theodore Popp. The first name is P-e-t-e-r. 

7 And the last name is P-o-p-p. Those are all 

8 P's like Peter. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

10 PETER THEODORE POPP 

11 called as a witness on behalf of 

12 the Complainant herein, having been first duly 

13 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 

14 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

15 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

16 Q Mr. Popp, where are you currently 

17 employed? 

18 A With the FAA at the Rocky 

19 Mountain CMO in Denver, Colorado. 

20 Q Can you briefly describe your 

21 aviation background? 

22 A I did 15 years of flying for the 

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1 Military, U.S. Air Force. I went to United 

2 Airlines for seven years as a line pilot, 

3 check airman, and flight instructor. I also 

4 worked for Airbus four years as a check airman 

5 and training center evaluator and then on 

6 to CAE as a training center evaluator before 

7 the FAA. 

8 Q Do you hold any airman 

9 certificates? 

10 A I do. I hold an a1r transport 

11 pilot rating. 

12 Q Okay. How long have you been 

13 employed by the FAA? 

14 A Three years. Just coming up on 

15 three years. 

16 Q Okay. In what capacity are you 

17 employed by the FAA? 

18 A I'm an Aviation Safety Inspector. 

19 Q Okay. What office -- and 

20 you're I'm sorry. You're currently part of 

21 the Rocky Mountain CMO? 

22 A Rocky Mountain Certificate 

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1 Management Office; that's correct. 

2 Q Okay. Now describe your current 

3 duties. 

4 A Currently I'm assigned to Great 

5 Lakes Airlines as the air crew program manager 

6 and responsible for training and checking of 

7 all air, check airmen, designated examiners, 

8 and pilot force. 

9 Q Okay. And are you familiar with 

10 the Aircrew Designated Examiner program? 

11 A Yes, I am. 

12 Q Okay. 

13 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I offer 

14 Inspector Popp as an expert in aviation safety 

15 investigations and the Aircrew Designated 

16 Examiner program. 

17 MR. JACKSON: May I ask one vo1r 

18 dire? 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

20 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION 

21 BY MR. JACKSON: 

22 Q Inspector, have you ever 

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1 designated an Aircrew Designated Examiner in 

2 part 13513 as that term is used in 

3 135.339A2? 

4 A It's not specified under there. 

5 But I have designated six Aircrew Designated 

6 Examiners on part 121. The regulation that 

7 covers that is identical to the 135 

8 regulation. And the 8900 spells that all out 

9 that the requirements are the same for both 

10 programs. 

11 Q So you've never done any 135? 

12 A No, I have not. 

13 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 

14 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, again I 

15 offer him as an expert? 

16 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: The witness is 

18 accepted as an expert. 

19 DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) 

20 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

21 Q Mr. Popp, what is an Aircrew 

22 Designated Examiner program? 

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1 A Aircrew designator Designat.ed 

2 Examiner program lS a thing that -- or a 

3 program that's created between the FAA and an 

4 alr carrier or an operator to be able to 

5 create check alrmen that have special 

6 authority in order to give certificates to 

7 other pilots under the employment of that 

8 ope:r:ator. 

9 Q Okay. Is there any guidance out 

10 there as to how an air carrier can acquire 

11 an ADE program? 

12 A Yes. The inspector' s handbook, 

13 the 8900.1 spells ~ut how you would go about 

14 doing such a thing. 

15 Q Please turn to what is marked in 

16 the book in front of you as C11. Do you 

17 recognize this document? 

18 A I do. 

19 Q What is this document? 

20 A This is a section of the 

21 inspector's handbook 8900.1 on the Aircrew 

22 Designated Examiner program. 

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1 Q Is this a publicly-available 

2 document? 

3 A Yes, it is. I believe it's 

4 available on the Internet. 

5 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 

6 that judicial notice be taken of C11? 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection, 

8 Mr. Jackson? 

9 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, is this 

10 being offered as current the relevant time? 

11 Or are we looking at what's on the Internet 

12 today? 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court's 

14 concern lS whatever documents were in force 

15 and applicable at the time of the incident. 

16 So the incident was I don't have it quite 

17 in front of me. But it would have to weigh to 

18 the dates. 

19 And if the Court takes judicial 

20 notice, as I've indicated earlier, we always 

21 check to make sure that we have before us at 

22 the time we write the decision a copy of the 

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1 regulation that it is currently happening at 

2 the time of the incidents. 

3 MR. JACKSON: And this is not 

4 being offered as a regulation, is it? 

5 MR. LOMAZOW: It is not, no. 

6 MR. JACKSON: Okay. 

7 MR. LOMAZOW: Simply as 

8 background. 

9 MR. JACKSON: Okay. I have no 

10 objection if this is asserted to be relevant 

11 at the time, which from our position was 

12 March 26, 2010. 

13 MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. It will be 

15 received and appropriate weight will be given 

16 based on the objection. Counsel? 

17 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

18 Q Inspector, what are the 

19 requirements --and you don't have to go into 

20 every single one -- but briefly summarize. 

21 What are the requirements for an air carrier 

22 such as Mountain to acquire an Aircrew 

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1 Designated Examiner program? 

2 A It's a process that usually the 

3 air carrier would approach the FAA. Sometimes 

4 it's the other way around. But it's usually 

5 based on need. If the FAA is unable to 

6 provide sufficient inspectors to provide 

7 checking functions and to provide the rating 

8 functions for the pilots at the carrier or 

9 there's some distance issue or simulator 

10 issue, time issue, they would come to the FAA 

11 and say, We'd like to set this up. 

12 The FAA would have to base it on 

13 need. Is that truly the case that we don't 

14 have enough inspectors to cover the need? If 

15 that's the case, then we'll sit down with the 

16 air carrier, and we'll write what's called a 

17 Memorandum of Understanding where we will put 

18 down the requirements for both sides as far as 

19 what's required of the FAA inspector as 

20 somebody that's going to be designated to run 

21 the program. 

22 As an Air Program Manager, that's 

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1 what I was selected to do. I needed to go 

2 through the qualification program for one of 

3 the air carriers or as one of the air 

4 carrier's pilots in command. So I went 

5 through their entire trainJ..ng program. I also 

6 went through their entire check alrman 

7 training program. 

8 We would then select -- or they 

9 would put candidates forward to be those air 

10 crew program designees. That's the title we 

11 give to the actual check airmen that are 

12 authorized to do this as air program designee. 

13 And we would train them. It was my 

14 responsibility to train them, observe them 

15 doing their job as check airmen, giving check 

16 rides, they observe me giving check rides. 

17 I do ground safety training with 

18 them and ground instruction on FAA 

19 requirements to be able to do those functions. 

20 It gets coordinated through our office and 

21 then all the way up to the regional offices, 

22 the FAA, to get approval for the program. So 

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1 it takes some time to do that. 

2 Q Okay. So this lS something you 

3 cannot do like in a day? 

4 A No. This would probably take at 

5 least, you know, six months to two years 

6 depending on how diligent the operator wanted 

7 to be with it and how the FAA handled it. 

8 Q Inspector, please turn to what lS 

9 marked as C9 in the witness book, and tell me 

10 when you're there? 

11 A Yeah. I'm there. 

12 Q Okay. Let's go to the letter 

13 dated January 18, 2008, which is the second 

14 page. 

15 A Okay. 

16 Q The language check pilot -- where 

17 it says in the middle of the page, This 

18 approval lS applicable for the following check 

19 functions: Check pilot all checks. 

20 A Uh-huh. 

21 Q Does that language, ln your 

22 opinion, confer ADE status on the check airman 

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1 here in question? 

2 A No. It does not. 

3 Q Why not? 

4 A It's spelled out pretty clearly in 

5 the 8900 that that designation allows you to 

6 do proficiency checking 1n the simulator, 

7 proficiency checking in an aircraft, or line 

8 checks in an aircraft. 

9 Q Okay. The POI here 1s Al Hankins, 

10 correct? 

11 A That's correct. 

12 Q Would he have the power to bypass 

13 the procedures you just talked about and 

14 confer ADE status on a check airman? 

15 A No, absolutely not. 

16 Q Okay. Please turn to what 1s 

17 marked as C1 in the book. 

18 A Okay. 

19 Q Now, at the bottom of the page you 

20 see InspectorAl Hankins' signature, correct? 

21 A Correct. 

22 Q What does that signature mean to 

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1 you? 

2 A That means that Inspector Hankins 

3 was on the aircraft during this proficiency 

4 check, and he signed off the check airman's 

5 performance as satisfactory. 

6 Q Okay. And what does that approve 

7 Ronald Getty for? 

8 A That would approve the check 

9 airman to continue to conduct checking 

10 functions, proficiency checking functions of 

11 company pilots. 

12 Q Okay. And what CFR does that 

13 satisfy? 

14 A That would satisfy an observation 

15 under 135339. 

16 Q Okay. Now, you heard Inspector Al 

17 Hankins testify that it does not. Do you 

18 disagree with that opinion? 

19 A Partially. What I think Inspector 

20 Hankins was -- might have been confused by is 

21 the requirement of 339 says an FAA inspector 

22 or an Aircrew Designated Examiner. I don't 

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1 think that creates a designated examiner out 

2 of, you know, Airman Getty. But Inspector 

3 Hankins lS an FAA inspector, so he's 

4 authorized to conduct that observation. So I 

5 believe he might have been confused on that 

6 point. 

7 Q What language does all checks 

8 what does an all checks designation confer on 

9 that check airman? 

10 A All checks designation allows a 

11 check airman to do proficiency checking in a 

12 simulator, proficiency checking in an 

13 aircraft, and a line checking in an aircraft. 

14 Q Okay. So under any circumstances, 

15 is it possible to for a check airman to be 

16 conferred as an -- or to be approved, I should 

17 say, as an ADE without having undergone the 

18 process that you described at the beginning of 

19 your testimony? 

20 A No, not at all. 

21 MR. LOMAZOW: No further questions 

22 for this witness. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 

2 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

3 BY MR. JACKSON: 

4 Q Good morning, Inspector Popp. 

5 A Good morning. 

6 Q You probably know my name. My 

7 name is Kent Jackson, and I'm representing 

8 Mountain Aviation. 

9 A Thank you. 

10 Q The phrase Aircrew Designated 

11 Examiner is not defined 1n the FARs, is it? 

12 A No, it's not. 

13 Q Okay. The phrase air crew 

14 designated let me back up. Are you 

15 familiar with part 183? 

16 A Yes, I am. 

17 Q Very good. What does part 183 

18 cover? 

19 A Designated examiners checking 

20 functions like the certifications. 

21 Q Can I ask you for a moment on 

22 Exhibit C11 --Complainant's Exhibit 11, which 

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1 is the -- I believe we referred to it as the 

2 

3 A The one we discussed earlier? 

4 Q inspector's handbook 

5 provisions? 

6 A Okay. 

7 Q Can you refer to page 22 in that 

8 document? 

9 A All right. 

10 Q And do you see a sample Memorandum 

11 of Understanding in that document? 

12 A I do. 

13 Q And in Paragraph No. 1 in that 

14 sample Memorandum of Understanding, does it 

15 say the Aircrew Designated Examiner program 

16 has been established pursuant to the 

17 provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations 

18 part 183? 

19 A Yes, it does. 

20 Q Does it say where ln part 183? 

21 A No, it does not. 

22 Q Do you know where in part 183? 

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1 A No, I do not. 

2 Q And while I'm getting something 

3 for you to refer to, do you believe that this 

4 language in the Memorandum of Understanding on 

5 page 22 of Exhibit C11 is accurate? Do you 

6 believe that Aircrew Designated Examiners, as 

7 that term is used in part 135, are designated 

8 under part 183? 

9 A Well, if you want to do that, this 

10 regulation that you have is from September of 

11 2008. So I don't know 

12 Q I'm sorry. What regulation? 

13 A The -- well, excuse me. Not the 

14 regulation. The 8900.1 excerpt that's in this 

15 book 

16 Q Okay. 

17 A -- 1s dated 2008. 

18 Q And did you 

19 A So it would have been current at 

20 the time of 2010. But I can't tell you that 

21 it's current as of today. But as of 2010 what 

22 was in here I believe was fairly accurate. 

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1 Q Okay. 

2 MR. JACKSON: May I approach the 

3 witness? 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

5 BY MR. JACKSON: 

6 Q I hand you what's been marked for 

7 identification purposes as Respondent's 

8 Exhibit No. 11. 

9 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor? 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 

11 BY MR. JACKSON: 

12 Q Please take a moment and review 

13 that regulation, if you would. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: While he's doing 

15 that, am I missing an exhibit? 9 was the MSPB 

16 case. 11 is what you just proffered. I'm 

17 asking Respondent. 

18 MR. JACKSON: Oh. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't have -- I 

20 don't have -- principally have a --

21 MR. JACKSON: Yeah. Mine, 

22 unfortunately, are not in order because he's 

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1 offered most of --

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Well, 

3 let's -- that's fine. 

4 MR. JACKSON: I apologize. 

5 BY MR. JACKSON: 

6 Q Have you had the opportunity to 

7 review that? 

8 A I have. 

9 Q All right. And does this appear 

10 to be a copy of the FAR 183.23 pilot 

11 examiners? 

12 A Yes, it does. 

13 Q Is that what we're talking about? 

14 A No. 

15 Q Is this regulation relevant to a 

16 discussion of Aircrew Designated Examiners as 

17 that phrase is used in FAR 135.339A2? 

18 A I don't believe so, no. 

19 Q Is part 183 relevant to Aircrew 

20 Designated Examiners as that term is used in 

21 135.339? 

22 A I think it's relevant in the 

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1 discussion, yes, because that's where the 

2 authority comes from, from the regulation to 

3 be able to come up with an MOU. 

4 Q What and I didn't mean to 

5 interrupt your answer. Did you complete your 

6 answer? 

7 A Yeah, that was correct. 

8 Q All right. So if this guidance 1n 

9 the inspector's handbook is correct, it means 

10 that the Memorandum of Understanding to create 

11 anAircrewDesignatedExaminer, 135.339, comes 

12 from part 183; is that correct? Is that your 

13 testimony? 

14 A No. First off, I don't like the 

15 idea that you are saying that the authority 

16 created a designated examiner comes out of 

17 339 -- 135339. I don't think that has 

18 anything to do with it. Under 133 -- or 

19 excuse me -- 135339, all it's saying is that 

20 a check airman needs to have an observation by 

21 an FAA examiner or an Aircrew Designated 

22 Examiner. 

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1 That doesn't give me any 

2 authority. It doesn't glve anybody any 

3 authority to create a designated examiner or 

4 to have a program or to do anything else with 

5 a designated examiner. It just says one of 

6 those few people could do that observation for 

7 a check alrman. 

8 Q What Federal Aviation Regulation 

9 glves the authority to create an Aircrew 

10 Designated Examiner as that term lS used in 

11 135.339A2? 

12 A 18323. 

13 Q Would you read-- well, I'll read 

14 it and see if you agree with it. 

15 A Okay. 

16 Q The title is 183.23, pilot exams. 

17 A Correct. 

18 Q It states, Any pilot examlner, 

19 instrument rating examiner, or airline 

2 0 transport pilot examiner may, as authorized ln 

21 his designation, accept applications for 

22 flight tests necessary for issuing pilot 

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1 certificates and ratings under this chapter. 

2 Is that correct? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Is an observation check, as 

5 required of a check airman under 135.339A2, a 

6 certificate? 

7 A No, it's not. 

8 Q Is it a rating? 

9 A No, it's not. 

10 Q Where is it in part 183? 

11 A Part 183 establishes the basis to 

12 have pilot examiners. The 8900 goes further 

13 in the ADE program defining a program because 

14 air carriers are unique operations. 183 was 

15 designed as a stand-alone thing for a general 

16 aviation pilot examiner that could go out and 

17 give a type rating in an aircraft, whatever 

18 aircraft it 1s. 

19 Say it's an Airbus 320. I could 

20 give a designee an opportunity or I could 

21 create a designee that would be allowed to go 

22 out and give check rides in that airplane. I 

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1 could create a training center evaluator that 

2 would go out and give check rides ln that 

3 airplane to anybody that came along and had 

4 the money and passed the TSA background 

5 check --

6 Q So 

7 A to get that rating. 

8 Q lS it your testimony that no 

9 one can give a check ride required under 

10 the FARs without going through the ADE 

11 program? 

12 A No. But that check ride -- that 

13 designee can glve a check ride in that 

14 aircraft. If an operator says, you know, I 

15 need more than that; I want something that's 

16 customized to my operation because it's unique 

17 in its function, in its scope, in its depth; 

18 I want something unique to my operation --

19 the FAA said, Sure, we can create this thing 

20 called an Aircrew Designated Examiner program, 

21 and we're going to create a designee program, 

22 and we're going to have this Memorandum of 

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1 Understanding because we 1 re going to allow you 

2 to do some other things. 

3 One of the other things 1s since 

4 you 1 ve gone through that operator/ s training/ 

5 you 1 re familiar enough with that operator 1 S 

6 procedures/ manuals 1 et cetera. 1 1 m going to 

7 give you the authority to go out and observe 

8 their check airmen. You/ yourself/ have been 

9 a check airman at that operator for at least 

10 a year before I make you a designated examiner 

11 under the MOU. 

12 You have enough background that 

13 you could do that observation and see if 

14 another check airman has the skill set and the 

15 experience required for that operator in that 

16 operator/ s procedures and knowledge of his 

17 manuals. 

18 So we needed to create something 

19 in addition to what the regulations said in 

20 order to cover these situations where we need 

21 more in-depth knowledge of the situation. And 

22 that 1 s what we did when we created an ADE 

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1 program under an MOU. 

2 Q So you created requirements not 

3 stated in any Federal Aviation Regulation? 

4 A Not me. I didn't create any 

5 requirements. 

6 Q I -- I understand. And I did not 

7 mean to accuse you unjustly. I apologize. 

8 The inspector's handbook provision that --

9 that is admitted as Complainant's Exhibit No. 

10 11, it -- not you -- creates requirements to 

11 become an air crew program designee under part 

12 135339A2; lS that correct? Is that your 

13 testimony? 

14 A No. I still don't think it's 

15 under part 13 93 3 9. What it does is the 

16 inspector's handbook allows an operator and 

17 the FAA to create an air crew program designee 

18 that could conduct an observation as required 

19 under 339. 

20 Q It creates requirements not stated 

21 in any Federal Aviation Regulation; is that 

22 correct? 

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1 A That is correct. 

2 Q Does the inspector 1 s handbook 

3 provision provided by the FAA in Complainant 1 s 

4 Exhibit No. 11 talk about an air crew program 

5 designee? 

6 A Yes 1 it does. 

7 Q You have a great deal of 

8 exper1ence with flight simulators/ don 1 t you? 

9 A Yes 1 I do. 

10 Q Are you familiar with part 60? 

11 A Somewhat. Not off the top of my 

12 head 1 but 

13 Q If I were to tell you that the 

14 title is -- that it covers flight simulation/ 

15 would that ring any bells with you? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q All right. Is the term air crew 

18 program designee used under part 60? 

19 A I believe so. 

20 Q All right. And the term air crew 

21 program designee is not used in part 135; 1s 

22 that correct? 

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1 A I do not believe so, no. 

2 Q Okay. Air crew program designee 

3 lS used 1n part 61, isn't it? 

4 A I believe so. 

5 Q And part 61 covers the issuance of 

6 certificates and ratings to airmen; isn't that 

7 correct? 

8 A Correct. 

9 Q Air crew program designee is not 

10 used interchangeably in the regulations, is 

11 it? Air crew program -- I'm sorry. I've done 

12 well so far. Aircrew Designated Examiner and 

13 air crew program designee, these terms are not 

14 used interchangeably in the Federal Aviation 

15 Regulations, are they? 

16 A That, I would say I believe they 

17 are. But I can't tell you 100 percent on that 

18 one. 

19 Q I understand. 

20 A The only pla~e I've seen Aircrew 

21 Designated Examiner is in 135 and 121 in the 

22 same place. 

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1 Q Can you explain that answer? 

2 A 339 135339 uses the term 

3 Aircrew Designated Examiner. 

4 Q Right. 

5 A I believe that's one of the only 

6 places it's used ln the entire regulation. 

7 But I do believe there's a like paragraph 

8 under 121 that has the same phrase. 

9 Q And I -- I don't doubt that. But 

10 we're not being charged under part 121, are 

11 we? 

12 A No, no. 

13 Q And we're not being charged under 

14 part 60, are we? 

15 A No. Not that I know of, no. 

16 Q And is it your testimony that to 

17 obtain an Aircrew Designated Examiner under 

18 135.339A2, an air carrier must first have an 

19 alr crew program designee? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q Under part 60. Air crew program 

22 designee is not used in anywhere but part 60 

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1 and 61; isn't that correct? 

2 A Well, I could ask you the same 

3 question, I guess. You're telling me the 

4 check airmen which is used in the regulation 

5 frequently is a term that you understand. But 

6 this exhibit you just gave me says check 

7 pilot. Is t~at different? 

8 Q Well, it's really tempting to 

9 trade places with you, but -- so 

10 A So what I would offer 

11 Q my limited understanding is we 

12 don't get to do that. 

13 A What I would offer to you is I 

14 wish our Government had written rules that 

15 were crystal clear and had everything we 

16 needed every time in plain and easy to 

17 Q All right. I'll answer that 

18 question. I agree. 

19 A easy-to-understand language. 

20 But sometimes the language gets transferred. 

21 In 8900 there is a paragraph in here that says 

22 you can use check pilot interchangeably with 

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1 check airman. 

2 There is a paragraph in here that 

3 says alr crew program designee falls under 183 

4 in a Memorandum of Understanding. And in 

5 order to do an observation required under 

6 137339, the only way you can do that is to be 

7 an air crew program designee when the 

8 Memorandum of Understanding in an air crew --

9 Q And so --

10 A examiner program. 

11 Q that's what the inspector's 

12 handbook says. And you cannot cite a Federal 

13 Aviation Regulation that explains how the 

14 handbook arrived at that conclusion. 

15 A No. I couldn't cite a regulation 

16 that cites 

17 Q All right. 

18 A -- that arrives at that, no. 

19 Q All right. The regulations do 

20 specifically, FAR 135.337 and 339, they do 

21 state the requirements to become a check 

22 airman. And I' 11 try not to say check 

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1 pilot -- a check airman; 1s that correct? 

2 A That's correct. 

3 Q All right. And 339 1s where the 

4 phrase Aircrew Designated Examiner is used, 

5 correct? 

6 A I believe so, correct. 

7 Q The rule states, No additional 

8 requirement for a check airman to become an 

9 Aircrew Designated Examiner employed by the 

10 company, correct? 

11 A That's correct. 

12 Q So the only way an operator would 

13 know that there are requirements that are not 

14 stated in the FARs, but are stated in the 

15 inspector's handbook, would be to read the 

16 inspector's handbook; is that correct? 

17 A Or ask the inspector that signed 

18 their certificate. There are more than one 

19 way to skin a cat. But yes, that would be 

20 a --

21 Q I --

22 A -- way to do it is to read the 

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1 8900. 

2 Q Would it be better to just ask the 

3 inspector? 

4 A I don't believe so. 

5 Q Well, can this be subject to 

6 can the inspector's handbook be subject to 

7 interpretation? 

8 A Certainly there are things that 

9 are subject to interpretation. 

10 Q So would it be wise to ask the 

11 inspector's interpretation? 

12 A If you're asking me what I would 

13 consider wise, I can tell you that. Or --

14 Q Go ahead. 

15 A What I would consider w1se is I 

16 would look up what the 8900 says and make my 

17 own opinion. And then I would ask the 

18 inspector what he thought about it. And if I 

19 disagreed, I'd point to where I thought it was 

20 different in the 8900 or the regulations. And 

21 then I would have something more to gq on. 

22 Q All right. The entire well, we 

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1 don't have the entire Order 8900 in this 

2 exhibit; 1s that correct? 

3 A Yeah, that's correct. 

4 Q How long is the inspector's 

5 handbook Order 8900 (indiscernible)? 

6 A I have never seen it printed. But 

7 I would assume it would be six or eight inches 

8 tall if you printed it all out and stacked it 

9 on the desk. 

10 Q Okay. Perhaps even thousands of 

11 pages? 

12 A Yes. That would be an easy guess. 

13 Q To your knowledge, has the FAA 

14 ever issued an advisory circular that explains 

15 how to create an Aircrew Designated Examiner 

16 as that term 1s used in 135.339A2? 

17 A I am not aware. I don't know. 

18 Q Okay. An advisory circular is 

19 guidance material from the FAA to the 

20 industry; is that correct? 

21 A That's correct. 

22 Q Okay. 

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1 A One of several, but yes. That's 

2 correct. 

3 Q Another one would be the 

4 aeronautical information manual? 

5 A That's correct. 

6 Q Do you know of anything in the 

7 aeronautical information manual that would 

8 explain 135.339A2's use of the phrase Aircrew 

9 Designated Examiner? 

10 A Not to my knowledge, no. 

11 Q Do you know of any guidance that's 

12 issued to the industry, rather than to the 

13 inspectors, that would explain any additional 

14 requirements to become an Aircrew Designated 

15 Examiner that are not stated in the 

16 regulations? 

17 A None, other than the 8900, that I 

18 can think of. 

19 Q And the 8900 lS issued to 

2 0 inspectors. It's just available for review by 

21 the public; is that correct? 

22 A I believe it's issued -- I mean, 

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1 it's put online with the intent that it's open 

2 source for everybody to use. 

3 Q I understand. 

4 A I've never been handed a copy of 

5 it, just to make that clear. 

6 Q It might break your arm. Is that 

7 possible? 

8 A It's not really --it's not issued 

9 to us either as inspectors. It's on a Web 

10 site that we're given access to, just like the 

11 public is. 

12 Q All right. 

13 MR. JACKSON: I have no further 

14 questions. Thank you. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 

16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

17 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

18 Q Inspector, so if you wanted to 

19 find 8900, could you Google it? 

20 A Oh. Yes. In fact, I do that all 

21 the time. It's quicker than going through 

22 the FAA site. 

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1 Q Is there any guidance out there 

2 that suggests that an all checks designation 

3 confers ADE status on a check airman? 

4 A No. None, whatsoever. 

5 Q Okay. Now let's talk about the 

6 ways that an operator would know whether they 

7 had an ADE program. Could they go to 8900? 

8 A They wouldn't know if they had a 

9 program that way. But if they wanted to, if 

10 they were interested in having a designee on 

11 staff, they could go to the 8900 to figure out 

12 what process to use to start the process. 

13 Q Could that call their POI? 

14 A Yes, they could. 

15 Q Can they call the FSDO and talk to 

16 a manager? 

17 A Yes, they could. 

18 Q Okay. In your opinion, is it 

19 reasonable for a company to just assume that 

20 they have one? 

21 A No. Absolutely not. 

22 MR. LOMAZOW: No further 

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1 questions, Your Honor. 

2. JUDGE GOODWIN: Any questions 

3 based on the redirect? 

4 MR. JACKSON: No, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you are 

6 instructed not to discuss your testimony with 

7 anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

8 hearing. You may step down. 

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

11 MR . LOMAZOW : Your Honor, the 

12 People rest. Or 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: People? 

14 MR. LOMAZOW: I apologize. The 

15 Complainant rests. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. How many 

17 witnesses do you expect to have? 

18 MR. JACKSON: Two. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me make a 

20 suggestion. Rather than breaking your train 

21 of thought in 25 minutes, why don't we break 

22 now for lunch. After lunch we'll return, and 

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1 you can put your case on. Any other matters, 

2 Mr. Lomazow --

3 MR. LOMAZOW: No, Your Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: in the FAA's 

5 case? I'm golng to put the FAA's documents 

6 and the Respondent's documents up here on the 

7 bench with a black magic marker. And I'd 1 ike 

8 the two of you to go through and make sure 

9 that redactions are made before we go back on 

10 the record. 

11 What we'll do is reconvene at 

12 about 1 o'clock, and we'll go to conclusion. 

13 All right. So at this point we'll go off the 

14 record. 

15 (Off the record for about an hour 

16 and a half for lunch and then back on the 

17 record.) 

18 AFTERNOON SESSION 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 

20 record. Respondent, you want to call your 

21 next witness? 

22 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, the --

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1 oh. I'm sorry. Respondents. Go ahead. I 

2 thought you said Complainant. 

3 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may I 

4 give a very brief openlng before calling my 

5 first witness? 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

7 OPENING STATEMENT 

8 BY MR. JACKSON: 

9 Your Honor, the evidence will show 

10 that this is a simple case. Complainant and 

11 Respondent agree that the heart of this issue 

12 is whether or not flights on March 26, 2010 

13 constituted an observation check as required 

14 of a check airman under 135.339A2. 

15 The Complainant has already 

16 explained that the other two regulations 

17 alleged to be violated in the complaint flow 

18 from the conclusion by the Complainant that 

19 135339A2 was violated. In other words, the 

20 recordkeeping violations flow from only the 

21 allegation under 135.339A2. There hasn't been 

22 any testimony presented that Mountain Aviation 

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1 doesn't know how to keep records or doesn't 

2 keep records. 

3 And with that, Your Honor, I would 

4 1 ike to call our first witness, Gary Emmerson. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Stand and 

6 ralse your right hand. Do you solemnly swear 

7 the testimony you glve will be the truth, the 

8 whole truth, and nothing but the truth under 

9 the penalty of perjury? 

10 THE WITNESS: I do. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

12 State your full name and spell your first and 

13 last name. 

14 THE WITNESS: My full name is Gary 

15 Kent Emmerson. Gary is spelled G-a-r-y. 

16 Emmerson lS spelled with two 

17 m's -- E-m-m-e-r-s-o-n. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

19 GARY KENT EMMERSON 

20 called as a witness on behalf of 

21 the Respondent herein, having been first duly 

22 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 

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1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

2 BY MR. JACKSON: 

3 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Emmerson. 

4 What is your occupation? 

5 A I'm an aviation consultant and 

6 contract pilot. 

7 Q What qualifications do you have as 

8 a pilot? 

9 A I'm rated as an airline transport 

10 pilot. I hold type ratings in a 

11 Gulfstream G4, Citation 650, a King Air 300, 

12 and a Beech 1900. 

13 Q Can you tell me what your 

14 experience is as a pilot? Your job 

15 experience? 

16 A I have 35 years of experience, 32 

17 of which are in 135 operations. I've been a 

18 manager. I've been an owner of a 135 

19 operation. I'vebeenthechiefpilot. Ihave 

20 an 18 aircraft 45 pilot operation in 135 

21 operations. I've flown in commuter 

22 operations. Those were 135 also. And I've 

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1 also flown part 91 operations. I've got about 

2 12, 000 hours total time, 7500 hours at PIC 

3 with international operations experience, 

4 along with multiple other tasks and duties. 

5 Q I understand. Were you ever 

6 employed by Mountain Aviation? 

7 A I was. 

8 Q During what period of time were 

9 you employed at Mountain Aviation? 

10 A I was employed at Mountain 

11 Aviation from June 1 of 1999 to August 31, 

12 2012. 

13 Q Okay. What -- pardon me. Did you 

14 serve as the chief pilot at Mountain Aviation? 

15 A I did. 

16 Q What were your duties· as chief 

17 pilot? 

18 A My duties as chief pilot were to 

19 oversee safety on a daily basis with respect 

20 to crew operations and aircraft operations, to 

21 coordinate the training of the crew, and to 

22 keep the records of such training, as well as 

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1 to coordinate their operations with -- their 

2 training operations with maintenance sequences 

3 on the aircraft. 

4 Q Did the recordkeeping obligations 

5 that you just mentioned include being 

6 responsible for making sure the check airmen 

7 received a required observation check every 

8 two years? 

9 A That's correct. 

10 Q Okay. How did you track that 

11 requirement? 

12 A Mountain Aviation had invested a 

13 significant amount of money in a software 

14 program called FOS in which not only are our 

15 airmen, but our check airmen, were entered 

16 into. And any any required checks or 

17 observations, training events, things of that 

18 nature were automatically tracked by the 

19 software. 

20 Q You said a significant amount of 

21 money. Can you give us an idea of what? 

22 A Yeah. It's -- last I knew -- and 

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1 they may have raised their prices. But last 

2 I knew it was about $12,000 a year. 

3 Q A year? 

4 A A year 

5 Q Okay. 

6 A -- that Mountain pays for this. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go off the 

8 record for just a second. Kyle? 

9 (Off the record for about 20 

10 seconds and then back on the record.) 

11 MR. JACKSON: Back on the record? 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Back on the 

13 record. 

14 MR. JACKSON: May I approach the 

15 witness? 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Thank you. 

17 BY MR. JACKSON: 

18 Q Mr. Emmerson, I'm handing you what 

19 has previously been marked for identification 

20 purposes as Respondent's Exhibit No. 6 

21 (indiscernible) Do you recognize that 

22 document? 

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1 A Yes, I do. 

2 Q What is it? 

3 A This is my sworn affidavit as to 

4 my employment with Mountain Aviation and to 

5 the events surrounding the alleged violation. 

6 Q And were you chief pilot when 

7 the FAA alleged a violation of 135.339A2? 

8 A I was. 

9 Q Okay. How would you arrange to 

10 have observation checks conducted for your 

11 check airmen, the checks required by 

12 135.339A2? 

13 A As part of my oversight as chief 

14 pilot, the training department normally 

15 tracked the records part of it. And I oversaw 

16 that. So there were two methods. One, I 

17 could either contact a POI directly myself or 

18 one of my designees might make the call and 

19 contact it to try and schedule the 

20 observation. Usually we contacted them by 

21 phone. 

22 Q Do you know someone named Alvin 

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1 Hankins? 

2 A I do. 

3 Q Who is that? 

4 A He is a former POI of Mountain 

5 Aviation while I was chief pilot. 

6 Q Do you recall what period of time 

7 he was your Principal Operations Inspector? 

8 A Yes. It was approximately 2003 to 

9 2009. 

10 Q Roughly slx years? 

11 A Yeah. Roughly six years. 

12 Q Iri that six-year period, was 

13 Mountain Aviation ever accused of failing --

14 I'm talking the period between 2003 2009. Was 

15 Mountain Aviation ever accused of failing to 

16 conduct observation checks of check airmen in 

17 accordance with 135.339A2? 

18 A No. 

19 Q Did you ever contact your 

20 Principal Operations Inspector, Mr. Hankins, 

21 to schedule those observation rides? 

22 A On different occasions, yes. 

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1 Q And you describe some of those 

) 

2 phone calls in your affidavit; lS that 

3 correct? 

4 A That's correct. 

5 Q Can you describe for me with 

6 detail the nature of the phone calls that you 

7 describe in your affidavit? 

8 A Normally, I would place a call and 

9 explain the need that we had. At that time we 

10 would see if we could come to some scheduling 

11 arrangement that would meet the requirements. 

12 And often we could. Sometimes we couldn't. 

13 So one specific time when I was 

14 talking with Mr. Hankins, we couldn't arrange 

15 for his schedule. His schedule didn't permit 

16 him to come and provide us with an 

17 observation. And I said, Would you like me to 

18 suspend checking? 

19 He asked me specifically, Have the 

20 check airmen ridden with each other? I 

21 said, Yes. He said, Continue checking and 

22 advise me when the next check is due; I will 

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1 check when my schedule allows. 

2 Q Did that conversation/ or words to 

3 that effect/ occur more than once? 

4 A That specific conversation/ not 

5 that I recall .. 

6 Q Okay. In those conversations/ did 

7 Inspector Hankins tell you that he had 

8 designated one or more of your check airmen as 

9 Aircrew Designated Examiners under 135. 339A2? 

10 Did he use those words in the conversation? 

11 A He did not use those specific 

12 words. 

13 Q Okay. Why didn 1 t you stop the I 

14 check airmen from their checking functions 

15 when Mr. Hankins was unavailable to perform 

16 that function? 

17 A Because he had told me to continue 

18 checking. So to satisfy my curiosity 1 I 

19 looked at their LOAs and compared it with the 

20 regulation to see if there could be some 

21 reason for this to occur. 

22 Q When you say LOAs 1 are you 

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1 referring to the all checks check airmen 

2 letters issued to Mr. Getty and Mr. Taft? 

3 A That's correct. There's a letter 

4 that designates the check airmen as an 

5 authorized representative of the FAA to 

6 conduct checks and examinations on behalf of 

7 the FAA. And in the case of Mr. Taft and 

8 Mr. Getty, they held designations of check 

9 airmen that authorized them to do all checks. 

10 Q Okay. I'm going to hand you 

11 what's been marked Respondent's Exhibit 4 and 

12 Respondent's Exhibit 5. 

13 MR. JACKSON: And, Your Honor, 

14 just so there's no confusion, these were also 

15 marked by the Complainant, but they were not 

16 offered into evidence. So 4 and 5. And we've 

17 marked out the birthdays on the 

18 (indiscernible) 

19 BY MR. JACKSON: 

20 Q Mr. Emmerson, can you tell me what 

21 Exhibit No. 4 is? 

22 A Exhibit No. 4 lS Form 8410 where 

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1 check Airman Oren Taft checked Airman Rodney 

2 Getty. 

3 Q And what's the date on that? 

4 A The date is March 26, 2010. 

5 Q Okay. And what is Respondent's 

6 Exhibit No. 5? 

7 A Exhibit No. 5 is the same form 

8 with Rodney Getty acting as check airman and 

9 checking Oren Taft, again on the same day, 

10 March 26, 2010. 

11 Q What 1s the significance of these 

12 two flights on March 26, 2010 in relation to 

13 the question of whether observation checks 

14 were conducted on one of your check airmen? 

15 A All right. The significance of 

16 these two checks is that because both Rodney 

17 Getty and Oren Taft held letters designating 

18 them as check airmen able to check and examine 

19 on behalf of the FAA, this -- this checking of 

20 each other actually checked and served as an 

21 observation of the check airman's checking 

22 ability. 

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1 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor 1 at this 

2 time Respondent would like to offer 

3 Respondent 1 S Exhibit No. 4 into evidence? 

4 MR. LOMAZOW: No objection/ Your 

5 Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent 1 s 4 for 

7 identification is received into evidence as 

8 Respondent 1 S 4. 

9 (Respondent 1 s Exhibit No. 4 was 

10 received into evidence.) 

11 MR. JACKSON: Respondent would 

12 like to offer Respondent 1 S Exhibit No. 5 into 

13 evidence? 

14 MR. LOMAZOW: No objection. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent 1 s 5 for 

16 identification is received into evidence as 

17 Respondent/s 5. 

18 (Respondent 1 s Exhibit No. 5 was 

19 received into evidence.) 

20 MR. JACKSON: And Respondent would 

21 like to offer Respondent 1 S Exhibit No. 6 into 

22 evidence? 

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1 MR. LOMAZOW: No objection. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 6 for 

3 identification is received into evidence as 

4 Respondent's 6. 

5 (Respondent's Exhibit No. 6 was 

6 received into evidence.) 

7 BY MR. JACKSON: 

8 Q Mr. Emmerson, there's a notebook 

9 1n front of you that has tabs. One of those 

10 tabs is marked C, as in Charlie, 7. If you 

11 would turn to that? 

12 A All right. 

13 Q And what document do you see? 

14 A I see my letter dated February 16, 

15 2011 

16 Q All right. 

17 A -- to Mr. Lang. 

18 Q Why did you write this letter? 

19 A I wrote this letter in response to 

20 a notification that we received from Inspector 

21 Lang of opening a letter of investigation 

22 against us. 

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1 Q And was that letter of 

2 investigation ln regard to this issue of 

3 whether a check airman had been checked under 

4 135.339? 

5 A It was. 

6 Q Okay. In the second paragraph of 

7 that letter it states that on January 19th 

8 the FAA was at your office to rev lew 

9 documents. Were you present on January 19th 

10 when the FAA came? 

11 A I was. 

12 Q Can you tell us about that 

13 meeting? 

14 A Sure. 

15 Q Please do. 

16 A Inspector Lang and two other 

17 individuals, one whom was our PMI at the time, 

18 Inspector Watts, and another individual 

19 whom -- his name escapes me. I don't 

20 remember. I've never met him since -- was 

21 with Chris. 

22 And they came to our office, asked 

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1 us to review the documents surrounding this 

2 case. And we provided them with the documents 

3 and a room in which Oren Taft, myself, and 

4 Rich Bj elkevig sat down in a meeting with 

5 Chris and the other two inspectors. 

6 During that meeting, we discussed 

7 the issue at length. And I walked them 

8 through these exact same details that we just 

9 explained here, showed them the letters of 

10 authorization designating Oren and Rodney 

11 Q Who is Rodney? 

12 A Rodney Getty. 

13 Q Getty. 

14 A Mr. Getty. 

15 Q Thank you. 

16 A Yes. Designating both of them to 

17 act as check airmen and examine airmen for 

18 Mountain Aviation on the FAA's behalf. And I 

19 noted and showed them that they were approved 

20 to do all checks. 

21 Q Did they have any reaction to that 

22 explanation? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q What was it? 

3 A Yes. Inspector Lang looked at the 

4 document. And he kind of read it. And he 

5 says, It says all checks. And he handed it 

6 across the table to Inspector Watts. Shortly 

7 thereafter, the meeting was concluded. And 

8 the inspectors left and went on their way. 

9 Q And were there any conversations 

10 between any of Mountain Aviation's personnel 

11 and Inspector Lang after that January 19th 

12 meeting but before the letter of investigation 

13 dated January 31st? 

14 A There -- there were two that I can 

15 think of. One occurred about an hour and a 

16 half after the meeting that morning. We left 

17 the meeting, and Oren and I went to lunch. On 

18 the way back from lunch, Inspector Lang called 

19 on Oren's phone as we were driving back to the 

20 office. And I asked Oren to put the phone on 

21 speaker so I could hear what Mr. Lang had to 

22 say. 

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1 And he informed us that he had 

2 been 1n touch with someone higher up. I don't 

3 know who it was that he was referring to 

4 exactly, but someone higher up who, indeed, 

5 had said, Yes, they're perfectly legal to do 

6 that. 

7 At that time, Inspector Lang 

8 informed us that we could put everyone back on 

9 the line because, as a result of his original 

10 finding, I had taken everybody off the line 

11 for safety reasons and -- and wanted to make 

12 sure that everything was okay. 

13 So during this conversation he 

14 said, You can put everybody back on the line; 

15 everything's okay. I asked Inspector Lang, or 

16 had Oren ask, to send,me that in writing via 

17 e-mail, which never came. The following 

18 day -- that was the first conversation. 

19 The following day we had applied 

20 to get special instrument approach 

21 authorization in Aspen. And Inspector Lang 

2 2 was in Aspen with another check airman of 

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1 Mountain Aviation to observe this special 

2 instrument approach training and to work on 

3 the authorization for it, at which time the 

4 conversation surrounding the issues of this 

5 alleged violation came up. 

6 And Inspector Lang again confirmed 

7 to that check airman that it had all been 

8 resolved; that there was, ln fact, no 

9 wrongdoing; and that we could go back to 

10 normal. That was on a Thursday. 

11 On the following Monday, we were 

12 notified verbally -- actually, not myself, but 

13 my training department manager -- that, Well, 

14 we're going to file a letter of LOI against 

15 Mountain Aviation. 

16 Q In this letter that's been 

17 previously admitted as Complainant's Exhibit 

18 No. 7, near the bottom of the first page, do 

19 you describe some actions that Mountain 

20 Aviation took in response to the letter of 

21 investigation? 

22 A Yes, I did. 

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1 Q And did you do those actions 

2 because you agreed with the FAA's letter of 

3 investigation or for some other reason? 

4 A No. We took these actions not 

5 because we thought we were in agreement. But 

6 we took these actions -- anytime there's any 

7 question whether or not there 1s some 

8 competency issue, it could directly relate to 

9 safety. And our obligation to the public with 

10 air carrier operations is to ensure their 

11 safety first. 

12 So the only prudent thing was 

13 long before we got the letter of 

14 investigation, was to take the people offline 

15 until we could get this issue settled and 

16 resolved. 

17 Q In your duties as chief pilot at 

18 Mountain Aviation, did you follow the Federal 

19 Aviation Regulations? 

20 A Absolutely. 

21 Q Did you also consult with advisory 

22 circulars issued by the FAA? 

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1 A Sure. 

2 Q Is there any other guidance 

3 material issued by the FAA that you regularly 

4 consulted? 

5 A Airmen's information manual. 

6 Q Okay. Did you consider the 

7 inspector's handbook to be directed at you as 

8 an operator? 

9 A No. The director's handbook lS 

10 the FAA's communication to him. 

11 Q The inspector's handbook? 

12 A Yeah. The inspector's handbook, 

13 yeah, is the FAA's communication to him. I --

14 I'm not an FAA employee. I never have been. 

15 I don't think I ever will be. And I haven't 

16 been trained to understand their 

17 communications or -- or read their internal 

18 communications. So I -- no, I wouldn't read 

19 those. 

20 MR. JACKSON: Okay. Thank you, 

21 Mr. Emmerson. 

22 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 

2 MR. LOMAZOW: Yes, Your Honor. 

3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

4 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

5 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Emmerson. 

6 A Good afternoon. 

7 Q I'm going to read you 135339A2. 

8 No certificate holder may use a person nor may 

9 any person serve as a check airman, unless 

10 within the preceding 24 calendar months that 

11 person satisfactorily conducts a proficiency 

12 or competency check under the observation of 

13 an FAA inspector or an Aircrew Designated 

14 Examiner employed by the operator. 

15 Now, that definition doesn't 

16 say FAA Inspector Aircrew Designated Examiner 

17 or the air carrier's own check airmen, does 

18 it? 

19 A That definition, which you just 

20 said was a definition, says an Aircrew 

21 Designated Examiner employed by the operator. 

22 Q Right. 

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1 A Right. 

2 Q So is it your testimony that you 

3 employ an Aircrew Designated Examiner? 

4 A It's my-- my testimony that the 

5 letter of authorization is, in fact, 

6 designating a check airman to operate on 

7 behalf of the FAA to check air crew --

8 Q Okay. That's not the question I'm 

9 asking you. 

10 A Okay. 

11 Q Does Mountain Aviation employ an 

12 Aircrew Designated Examiner? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q And when did you start believing 

15 that Mountain Aviation employed an Aircrew 

16 Designated Examiner? 

17 A When -- when I had the 

18 conversation with Mr. Hankins and I read this 

19 and got the direction to continue checking, 

20 the Aircrew Designated Examiner fit in the 

21 context of the conversation we had. 

22 Q If it --

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1 A That -- that is not -- as I see a 

2 title, it is a definition, as you spoke just 

3 a minute ago. 

4 Q It fit 1n the context of the 

5 conversation. So in the context of that 

6 conversation you never said to Al Hankins, By 

7 the way, I -- you know, Do we have an Aircrew 

8 Designated Examiner? Do we employ one? 

9 A No. The conversation about an 

10 Aircrew Designated Examiner never came up in 

11 that conversation. 

12 Q Okay. So you had no reason to 

13 believe based on that conversation that you 

14 had an air crew -- that Mountain employed an 

15 Aircrew Designated Examiner? 

16 A As I previously stated, after that 

17 conversation I went and looked at the LOAs and 

18 reread 135339A2 and logically concluded that 

19 that was ln the context with that 

20 conversation. 

21 Q You concluded based on your own --

22 your own thought process? 

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1 A No. I concluded that based on 

2 what Inspector Hankins told me. 

3 Q Okay. But you never called up 

4 Inspector Hankins and said, By the way, I want 

5 to make sure I have this right; I believe we 

6 have an Aircrew Designated Examiner; is that 

7 what you meant? 

8 You never had that conversation 

9 with him? 

10 A The -- the question wasn't about 

11 the Aircrew Designated Examiner. He had told 

12 me to continue checking. So I had no reason 

13 to have that conversation with him. 

14 Q Okay. But what I'm trying to fihd 

15 out though, what I'm trying to understand is 

16 when did you start believing you employed an 

17 Aircrew Designated Examiner? 

18 A I believed that Mountain Aviation 

19 employed check airmen. 

20 Q Okay. So you did not believe that 

21 they employed Aircrew Designated Examiners? 

22 A I believed that Mountain Aviation 

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1 employed check airmen, and they could fill the 

2 context of 135339A2. 

3 Q And yet, no one from the FAA ever 

4 told you, Yes, you have an Aircrew Designated 

5 Examiner? 

6 A No one from the FAA told me I had 

7 an Aircrew Designated Examiner. 

8 Q How long have you been the chief 

9 pilot -- or how long were you the chief pilot 

10 for Mountain Aviation? 

11 A From spring of 2002 to fall of 

12 2011. 

13 Q So you were responsible for 

14 ensuring that the check airmen received the 

15 proper checks, the proper observations, 

16 correct? 

17 A That's correct. 

18 Q So don't you think in this case 

19 you should have done a little bit more to find 

20 out what the status of Ronald (sic) Getty was? 

21 A Do I think I should have? 

22 Q Yes. 

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1 A I think -- I think the status of 

2 Rodney Getty was correct. 

3 Q And don' t you think you should 

4 have called Al Hankins and said, Is Rodney 

5 Getty an Aircrew Designated Examiner? Or, Is 

6 Oren Taft an Aircrew Designated Examiner? 

7 A No. I don't think I should have. 

8 I -- I think I had every reason to think 

9 everything was legal. 

10 Q And you never called a manager at 

11 the FSDO to inquire as to whether you had an 

12 Aircrew Designated Examiner? 

13 A I don't believe I've spoken to the 

14 manager of the FSDO ever once. 

15 Q Has Oren Taft or Rodney Getty ever 

16 presented you with any type of certificate 

17 showing that they're Aircrew Designated 

18 Examiners? 

19 A Their LOAs. 

20 Q But that's not the question I 

21 asked you. I didn't ask if they were LOAs. 

22 I asked did they ever give you any type of 

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1 certificate saying, Oren Taft, Air crew 

2 Designated Examiner? 

3 A I never I never requested any 

4 from them, nor did they ever offer me. 

5 Q Okay. So as the chief pilot for 

6 Mountain Aviation, you just assumed based on 

7 your own reasoning that Mountain Aviation 

8 employed an Aircrew Designated Examiner? 

9 MR. JACKSON: Misstates prior 

10 objection, misstates prior testimony. 

11 MR. LOMAZOW: I'll -- I'll 

12 withdraw that. I'll withdraw that. 

13 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

14 Q One final question. As the chief 

15 pilot for -- or the former chief pilot for 

16 Mountain Aviation, do you agree that an air 

17 carrier such as Mountain Aviation has an 

18 independent duty to not violate the Federal 

19 Aviation Regulations? 

20 MR. JACKSON: Independent of what? 

21 Is the objection. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

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1 MR. LOMAZOW: Actually, I'll 

2 withdraw that. I don't have any further 

3 questions, Your Honor. 

4 MR. JACKSON: Nothing further, 

5 Your Honor. May this witness be excused? 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Sir, you're 

7 instructed not to discuss your testimony with 

8 anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

9 hearing. You are free to step down. 

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

11 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, 

12 Respondent Mountain Aviation calls Rich 

13 Bjelkevig. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, do you swear 

15 the testimony you will give will be the truth, 

16 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth 

17 under the penalty of perjury? 

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

20 State your full name for the record and spell 

21 your first and last name. 

22 THE WITNESS: My name is Richy 

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1 Allen Bjelkevig. The first name 1S 

2 spelled R-i-c-h-y. The last name is 

3 spelled B-, as in boy, j-e-1-k-e-v-, as 1n 

4 victor, 1-g, as 1n golf. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

6 RICHY ALLEN BJELKEVIG 

7 called as a witness on behalf of 

8 the Respondent herein, having been first duly 

9 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 

10 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

11 BY MR. JACKSON: 

12 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Bjelkevig. 

13 A Good afternoon. 

14 Q What 1S your occupation, 

15 Mr. Bjelkevig? 

16 A I am the president and director of 

17 operations of Mountain Aviation. 

18 Q And do you hold any airmen 

19 certificates? 

20 A I do. 

21 Q What are they? 

22 A I hold an airline transport pilot 

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1 license and hold previous licenses that led up 

2 to that and a flight engineer's license for a 

3 Boeing 727. 

4 Q How long have you been with 

5 Mountain Aviation? 

6 A Since its beginning. 

7 Q Which was? 

8 A February of 1993. 

9 Q 1993? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q What was your aviation experience 

12 prior to 1993? 

13 A I had been in the early years, in 

14 the '70s, a flight instructor, 2500 hours 

15 chief flight instructor, part 91 corporate 

16 pilot, chief pilot for (indiscernible) 

17 operation, flew FAR 121 as a flight engineer 

18 on 727's, first officer on DC9's, 727's; have 

19 held, you know, multiple-type ratings, 

20 Gulfstream 400, Citation 650, Citation 500 

21 series. So -- and I have about 14,000 hours 

22 of flying time. 

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1 Q Were you director of operations 

2 for Mountain Aviation in 2010? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Did your duties as director of 

5 operations at Mountain Aviation include making 

6 sure that records were kept' up-to-date? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q How did you see to that 

9 obligation? 

10 A You know, I delegated that to 

11 Gary, our chief pilot, and our training 

12 department. And then they reported to me as 

13 to when all those checks were due. 

14 Q And was any program, software or 

15 other means, used to track records? 

16 A Yes. We used FOS, Flight 

17 Operation Software. In addition to that, we 

'18 used an Excel Spreadsheet that was published 

19 once a month. 

20 Q Aside from the current 

21 investigation that we're here to discuss 

22 today, has there been any criticism of your 

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1 recordkeeping at Mountain Aviation by the FAA? 

2 A Not that I know of, in all the 

3 years that we've been in business. As a 

4 matter of fact, I think most POis that we did 

5 throughout the years have said it was 

6 exemplary. 

7 Q Okay. Would you turn now to 

8 what's been marked as C7 in the notebook 

9 that's 

10 A You know, I forgot to get my 

11 cheaters over there. 

12 Q Oh. 

13 A Thank you. 

14 Q All right. 

15 A Okay. I have it here. 

16 Q All right. And is that a letter 

17 from Mountain Aviation to the Denver Flight 

18 Standards District Office? 

19 A Yes, it 1s. 

20 Q In the second paragraph, that 

21 letter describes a meeting on January 19, 

22 2011. 

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1 A Uh-huh. 

2 Q Were you at that meeting? 

3 A Yes, I was. 

4 Q Can you tell us what happened at 

5 that meeting? 

6 A Inspector Hankins, Inspector Will, 

7 our PMI at the time, and another inspector 

8 came into our office unannounced and 

9 said, We're here to, you know, do an 

10 investigation. We said, We'd be happy to help 

11 you out. So we went into a conference room 

12 downstairs, and they asked us for certain 

13 documentation surrounding this event. 

14 And we provided them with all that 

15 documentation. They read it. We explained to 

16 them what our interpretation of the 

17 regulations were in response, you know, which 

18 is really contained in this letter. And I 

19 think they were surprised that we had evidence 

20 there of the letter of authorizations for the 

21 check airmen that said, All checks, because 

22 sometimes these days they specify which checks 

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1 are authorized to do. 

2 But in those days they wrote, All 

3 checks, so that we were authorized to give any 

4 check requirements that we needed 1n the 

5 company through our check a1rmen. 

6 Q And did -- check airmen letters 

7 that your company receives today, they don't 

8 say, All checks? 

9 A No. It changed somehow. I don't 

10 know what happened. 

11 Q Okay. What -- what do they say 

12 now? 

13 A Now they'll specify which checks 

14 are authorized to do-- the 293, 297's, or 

15 whatever it may be. 

16 Q All right. What was the FAA 

17 representatives' reaction to your explanation? 

18 A I think they were surprised to see 

19 them. The conversation after some 

20 discussion back and forth across the table for 

21 the next four or five minutes, they took all 

22 the documents and said, Well, you know, we'll 

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1 have to go back and take a look at this; but 

2 this looks like it's sufficient. So ... 

3 Q Did they tell you at that time 

4 that your position wasn't possible under the 

5 inspector's handbook? 

6 A No. 

7 Q All right. 

8 MR. JACKSON: I have no further 

9 questions. Thank you. 

10 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

11 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

12 Q I'm going to attempt it. Mr. 

13 you know what? How do you pronounce your last 

14 name? 

15 A Just say Rich. You know, that's 

16 just really good. 

17 Q All right. I'll refer to you as 

18 Sir. Okay? I have a very tricky last name 

19 too. So I understand. So just touching 

2 0 briefly on the recordkeeping question that 

21 counsel asked you --

22 A Uh-huh. 

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1 Q -- so when a pilot such as -- you 

2 know, when a Mountain Aviation employed pilot 

3 or -- receives a -- or a check airman receives 

4 a competency and observation test -- check, 

5 you rece1ve -- there's some paperwork 

6 generated, correct? 

7 A Certainly. 

8 Q So if there wasn't a required 

9 check performed, there wouldn't be any 

10 paperwork generated? Or if a check wasn't 

11 done, then there's no paperwork to generate, 

12 correct? 

13 A Correct. 

14 Q Okay. Now, this meeting that you 

15 had at Mountain Aviation -- first of all, Al 

16 Hankins is not there, correct? 

17 A No. No, Al had been gone, 

18 obviously. 

19 Q Okay. And Mountain Mountain 

20 requested this meeting, did they not? Or did 

21 they did Mountain request this meeting? 

22 A No. Those guys just showed up at 

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1 the airport. Now, we did request a meeting in 

2 this letter that -- the FSDO to discuss this 

3 1n an unofficial capacity. 

4 Q Okay. 

5 A But that was never honored. 

6 Q Okay. And at 'this hearing -- I'm 

7 sorry. At this meeting, none of the FAA 

8 inspectors told you that you had an Aircrew 

9 Designated Examiner? 

10 A No. 

11 MR . LOMAZOW : Okay. No more 

12 questions for this witness, Your Honor. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 

14 MR. JACKSON: No redirect. And 

15 Respondent rests. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any rebuttal? 

17 MR. LOMAZOW: No, Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So that 

19 concludes -- let me just check to make sure 

20 I've got -- if my notes are -- Sir, you can 

21 step down. You're instructed not to discuss 

22 your testimony. 

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1 Okay. I show the FAA exhibits as 

2 follows: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 were all 

3 admitted. 8 we took judicial notice. That's 

4 the sanctions table. 9 is admitted. 10 is 

5 admitted. And 11, I took judicial notice of 

6 because it's publicly available. 

7 Now, on the Respondent's side, I 

8 show Respondent 1 is the same as Plaintiff's 

9 7. I couldn't find Respondent' s 2 in the 

10 Complainant's list. It wasn't offered. 

11 Complainant's 3 is the same as -- I'm sorry. 

12 Respondent's 3 is the same as Complainant's 9. 

13 And Respondent's 4, 5, 6 were all 

14 admitted. 7 is a case citation. 8 is a 

15 I'm sorry. 7 and 8 are CFR citations. 9 is 

16 a case citation. And 11 is a CFR citation. 

17 And none of those were offered. 

18 MR. JACKSON: We agree. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Does that sound 

20 consistent with your --

21 MR. LOMAZOW: Yes, Your Honor. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now, 

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1 Mr. Jackson, the normal contracts of the court 

2 reporter requires that they get a transcript 

3 done in, I don't know, it's a couple -- two 

4 weeks? 

5 COURT REPORTER: I think so. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: About two weeks. 

7 What happens is the transcript gets mailed to 

8 the FAA headquarters in Washington DC sometime 

9 between now and the time we all retire. Mr. 

10 -- and the FAA will get a copy of it in his 

11 office. What I'm going to ask you to do is 

12 when you get your copy, will you call 

13 Mr. Jackson? The two of you, work out a 

14 briefing schedule. 

15 As I told you when we started, we 

16 got the holidays coming up. You know, 

17 dependent upon how you do your books, your 

18 fiscal year may or may not be coming up. FAA 

19 I know has a lot of use-or-lose. So come up 

20 with a schedule that accommodates your 

21 schedules. If you can agree on something, 

22 just send me an order. I'll sign it. 

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1 If something comes up -- everybody 

2 always has that last minute trial you can't 

3 get out of -- talk. And whatever you can 

4 agree on, you know, shoot me in a minute 

5 order. If you can't agree, let me know. And 

6 I'll-- I'll work it out. But once the 

7 briefs -- once we get the transcript, once the 

8 briefs are done, then I'll get the decision 

9 out. 

10 As I said, I'll be mailing the 

11 exhibits to the office. I suspect between now 

12 and mid December they'll be up on the 

13 Internet. I always ask Ms. Matthews to do an 

14 additional scrub of all the exhibits to make 

15 sure there isn't something that we -- and this 

16 is a fairly simple case. We get some complex 

17 cases. And you'll find buried on page 32 some 

18 footnote with somebody's social security 

19 number. And that's the sort of stuff we're 

20 looking for. 

21 Anything else before we go off the 

22 record? 

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1 MR. LOMAZOW: No, Your Honor. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Jackson? 

3 MR. JACKSON: No, Your Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, thank you 

5 all. All of you have a good holiday. And in 

6 my case, I'll see you next year. 

7 MR. LOMAZOW: Absolutely. Thank 

8 you, Your Honor. 

9 MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Your 

10 Honor. Safe travels. 

11 (Whereupon, the hearing concluded 

12 at 1:57 p.m.) 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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157:17 66218 2:20 

320100:19 7 339 44:5,6,8 45:7 ----

91:21 98:17 7 4:10 33:20,22 

103:19 106:2 34:1 42:8 49:5 

108:20 109:3 130:10 135:18 

339A62:2 155:2,9,14,15 

339A2 45:22 62:9 7,15038:16 39:10 

34 4:10 70s 147:14 

35119:16 727147:3 

727's 147:18,18 

4 7500 120:2 

44:6,15 8:10 29:15 77 3:8 

29:17,18127:11 78 3:9 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 175 

' 
176 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Mountain Aviation 

Before: FAA 

Date: 11-27-12 

Place: Denver, CO 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

(202) 234-4433 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISIJ\ND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com