Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access 

Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the meeting and is 

unedited, except the text now reflects the correct spelling of some 

participant names. The CART system was used to provide an 

accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, 

and was streamed in real-time and available to the public on the 

internet during the meeting.

U.S. Access Board

Thursday, January 9, 2013

Washington, DC

Afternoon Session - meeting to resume 1:30 p.m. 

>> This is a operator, what did you mean by update the 

list?

>> Delete all of the disconnected lines so that I don't see 

them.

>> Sure. One moment.

>> I see Linda Martin is back on the line unmute her to 

full-time talk, thank you. Linda this is Rosemarie U.S. Access 

Board, we are filing back in from lunch, it will be a few 

minutes.

>> Okay, thanks.

>> BILLY ALTOM: I hope everyone enjoyed their lunch. If 

we could gather back together we will reconvene in just a 

matter of minutes, give folks a chance to get here. 
(Discussion off record.) 

>> BILLY ALTOM: Well, I think it's that time again we are 

going to reconvene. Before we get started with the first 

presentation after lunch, I want to check with the folks on the 

phone. And see if there were any questions that we might 

have missed in our previous discussions. Any comments 

from those of you out there on the phone?

>> Not from me. Linda Martin.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you, Linda. >> 

Rosemarie Bunales: Linda is the only one I have on the call 

right now.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Okay. What we may do then we realize 

all of our participants are back on the phone I may ask them a 

question I may have missed someone earlier I don't want to 

leave anyone out. What we are going it do right now is 

kickback in the afternoon session we have three more 

presentations to go through first up the International Centre 

for Accessible Transportation.

>> Thank you very much, Billy. I would like to show you 

this solution that we developed for -- better sit down here. 

We developed for VIA rail coach cars, we tried to integrate all 

of the elements that make it possible from the entrance of the 

car to the wheelchair position. And for those of you who 

don't know VR rail for Canada is what Amtrak is for the U.S. 
it's the major passenger rail car operator. Actually, Amtrak 

and VIA cooperate in some way on the west coast from 

Vancouver to Seattle on the east coast from Montreal to 

New York on the transporter lines. The features that you will 

see here were implemented to the VIA cars about two years 

ago. They are in service right now.

Sorry. This one.

>> BILLY ALTOM: The control underneath it.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: A little bit of a background. Here 

in Canada we have the voluntary code of practice for 

guidelines, we don't have the ADA. And the voluntary code 

can be enforced by the Canadian Transportation Agency, 

which is an agency that has the power to enforce some of 

these issues. And it relates mainly to federal regulated 

transportation modes like air inter-city trains some inter-city 

buses. Usually this kicks in after a complaint by a disabled 

person they can make a complaint to the carrier that certain 

accessibility aspects that are shown in the voluntary code have 

not been met and then the CTA makes a decision if this can 

be or should be implemented or not. We also have a 

different set up in terms of how many cars should be 

accessible in Canada, it's only one. One coach car per train 

must be fully accessible. It's also one wheelchair position in 

accessible car.
The elements I will talk about today are boarding, 

entrance door, the vestibule, the path to the wheelchair 

position, the wheelchair position space itself with adjustable 

table you will see later on. And adjacent companion seat, 

space for service animals, access to wash rooms, and of 

course the accessible wash room.

This drawing shows you the original concept on the top, 

which was before we made the changes to the coach car to be 

accessible. As you can see on the top, there is a kind of a 

center aisle. I also have to adhere the fact that these cars are 

different than many other cars because the seats are on both 

sides on an elevated level. So, the aisle is kind of a corridor 

that is fixed. It's about 19 inches in width. One of the 

challenges was, what you can see in the lower drawing 

concept drawing to make this whole area accessible at the 

floor level. Because we wanted to make sure that people 

don't have to use the step on to the seats either left or right 

side.

This is the typical entrance door (indicating). It's 32 

inches wide. Has steps, as many as all other cars. One 

entrance door on each end of the car. The -- in Canada we 

have only two stations that are level with the platform. And 

for these platforms, as you can see on the left-hand side, we 

use bridge plates just to come over a small kind of horizontal 
and vertical gaps. 

Most of the stations as you will see on the right-hand 

side use station-based lift for nonlevel platforms. And that 

is, unfortunately, the majority of the stations. And this lift 

that you see here on the right is a hand-cranked lift which 

goes down to the floor. The person has to--the person in 

the wheelchair who travels has to give advance notice to the 

carrier, a day ahead, to make sure that somebody is there to 

deploy the lift and make the boarding accessible.

We have car borne lifts it's from Ricon which is presently 

used only in sleeper cars VIA is investigating the use of these 

lifts as Amtrak and Talgo for all coach cars. We typically 

require vertical travel of about 48 inches from the platform to 

the floor level of the car. The vestibule was designed as you 

can see with a clear turning circle of 1500 millimeters which is 

59 inches. For two reasons: One is that we have the typical 

person in a manual wheelchair that can be assisted, their 

turning radius is relatively small. The same as power chairs. 

But when it comes to scooters, especially four-wheeled 

scooters, the turning radius is much bigger and so we have 

allowed for this larger vestibule area to have a clear turning 

radius of 1500 so that people can go from the vestibule right 

into the cab.

Now, the accessible path this is a top view here you can 
see on the left side is the entrance door then we have the 

1500 millimeters or the 59 inches vestibule area and then it 

leads to the vestibule door. The door is about 32 inches 

wide. The corridor it's 900 millimeters which is about 35 

inches and it leads all the way to the position where the 

person is in the wheelchair is traveling.

So, you have a clear corridor from the vestibule in an 

offset manner as you can see the wash room is located on one 

side and the corridor is on the other side. What the position 

of the wheelchair falling in here (indicating).

The vestibule door is, I think, 32 inches wide, yep. What 

you see here on the left-hand side was the original drawing 

the 1200 millimeters or 48 inches is the height to the control 

to open the door. It's a green touch -- touch control, and 

that opens the doors. It has, also, an indication in Braille and 

raised letters. So, you have three things, you have the color, 

which is a green color, you have the raised letter, and you also 

have the Braille indication. It's 48 inches from the floor so 

everybody in a wheelchair can actually easily access this door 

from the inside or from the outside. The view that you see 

here is actually from the inside of the corridor the same is 

happening from the outside.

On the left-hand side you see the vestibule door which is 

32 inches. The path the following path is 900 inches -- 900 
millimeters, 35-some inches. And the picture on the 

right-hand side shows you actually the view from the 

wheelchair position towards the vestibule door. Which is the 

clear corridor. On the right-hand side you can see the 

beginning of the wash room here (indicating). That's the 

wash room module. This is the table here (indicating) which I 

show you later for the person that sits in the wheelchair and 

travels there.

Now, when we are talking about the wheelchair position, 

we made room for just the footprint of about 30 inches by 48 

inches roughly. In this area, we have an adjustable table, this 

table can be used, it's a fixed table, in terms of attached to 

the car. But it is adjustable in terms of height and also in 

terms of sliding horizontally. Because on the other side of 

the table, we have two accessible transfer seats for 

companions, so if the person in the wheelchair is sitting here, 

facing this way, you have two accessible companion seats on 

this side, when they are traveling together. Or these seats 

can also be used for someone else if they are not occupied by 

a companion.

At the same time we have a space nearby for a service 

animal right beside the space where the wheelchair is 

positioned. And there is also two other seats accessible seats 

on the other side pivoting armrest pivoting aisle armrest these 
can be used by any elderly person or people who have 

difficulties getting in and out of the seat they have pivoting 

armrests and they are reserved for this purpose. The right 

side shows you here (indicating) the table which is also 

located near the window and the wheelchair possible 

positioned here (indicating). And has clear space underneath 

the table to park the wheelchair there.

We are talking about the wheelchair position in the train 

we have developed for VIA. I will repeat quickly to Dennis he 

missed that part yes, or you want me to go ahead?

>> Dennis: Go ahead.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: Okay. These are the two transfer 

seats they have pivoting arm rests the table in the middle that 

can be stowed away it's fixed actually to the wall and the 

floor. But the important part was that these armrests be 

pivoting on the aisle side so the access in and out of the seats 

makes it possible and more easier for people. Also, we found 

that mostly persons traveling in scooters transfer during the 

travel to another seat. So, we wanted to make sure that these 

seats are nearby where the scooter is actually unoccupied in a 

place -- and placed in a position where the wheelchair is 

traveling usually.

When it comes to the wash room, we have sliding power 

doors, 38, 39 inches wide. They are pocket doors. The 
controls are touch, raised letters, and Braille. And you just 

touch them on the outside and they open and you touch them 

from the inside and they close.

There is one very important aspect that we found is 

necessary to incorporate in the design. And it's the 

wheelchair position for the dependent and independent 

transfer. Not everybody in a wheelchair in a power chair can 

transfer alone from the chair to the toilet. Very often you 

need a companion or assistant in order to help you. For this 

purpose we made two positions available that are 35 inches 

by 60 inches almost 60 inches. And it can be placed, as you 

can see here, 45 degrees this way (indicating). 45 degrees 

this way (indicating). But there is also a full 59-inch circle so 

they can do the transfer frontal. If necessary, they can also 

position themselves perpendicular to the toilet. So, this 

makes it possible for almost every situation to carry out the 

transfer assisted or unassisted.

On the right-hand side here (indicating) you can see 

there is the toilet and it has two pivoting support arms. The 

two pivoting support arms are not only for persons in a 

wheelchair to help them transfer but we found also for many 

elderly people to get in and off of the toilet easily, because 

you have to kind of stem yourselves in and out. That is a 

very helpful aspect -- aspect too, we found is necessary. All 
of the paper dispenser and waste receptacles are within easy 

reach of the toilet here (indicating). There is a call button 

emergency call button that can be reached also from the toilet 

in case somebody needs help.

And there are additional grab bars you can see horizontal 

and vertical in order to assist transfers or at the same time to 

stabilize themselves because don't forget, very often trains 

move and there is movements within the train.

There are some other aspects with just the wash room 

vanity we have heard aisle -- ideally it should be in the 

vicinity of the toilet. That is not always possible depending 

on how you do your layout in terms of maneuvering space and 

transfer positions. In our case, it is not directly adjacent to 

the toilet. But what we have found here through research 

and test a grab bar around the sink. Because when you are 

there, again, working against the movements of the trains, it 

can be very helpful to stabilize yourself even for elderly 

people standing interest or somebody in the wheelchair who 

can steady themselves there. There is a pivoting mirror here 

which adjusts to the person in the wheelchair so that they can 

see themselves fully. And we have warm water controls. 

And all of the faucets are all automatic. So anything that you 

put your hand under it works for the soap dispenser as much 

as for the water dispenser.
The touch controls we talked about before I wanted to 

show you the close up, unfortunately it's not a very sharp 

picture, I apologize. On the left-hand side you see it's the 

opening, it's a fluorescent kind of green ring that you can 

touch the center of it. It has--you cannot see it here, 

unfortunately, it has a raised letter and also Braille. And also 

on the right-hand side it's the closing which is a red circle, 

you touch the center, and it also has a lock to indicate that 

you close the door, and again, here you can see more, this is 

in raised letters it says "lock" there is a Braille indication which 

indicates of course also locked. So, these were the main 

features that I wanted to show you. The idea was to integrate 

all elements from the entrance to the position to the traveling 

position and also including everybody else with a disability, as

I mentioned before people traveling with service animals, so 

there is a place for this. And there are, actually, maybe I 

didn't show this. There are actually two additional places in 

the coach car for spaces with service animals. So, if you are 

not in a wheelchair with a service animals but you are a blind 

person traveling with a service animal, there is a space in 

front of you that accommodates the service animal in such a 

way that they are out of the passageway and not be in the way 

of other people walking in the aisle. Thank you very much. 

If you have any questions please feel free to do so.
>> BILLY ALTOM: Questions? Dennis first. Got you --

>> Dennis Cannon: The -- this is for you and the 

previous I forgot to ask this question the fold-down grab 

bars, when I was in Amsterdam they have fold-down grab 

bars in almost all of the toilets, but they are very difficult to 

raise once they are down they really -- the whole concept in 

the Netherlands seems to be an assumption that you are 

going to be assisted by somebody. The flush control. You 

can't reach either from a wheelchair it has to be because it's 

behind the toilet. I am wondering about the issue of raising 

and lowering those movable grab bars how difficult and how 

easy they are, because the ones that I have seen are pretty 

hard once they get down it's very difficult to get them back 

up.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: Yes, Dennis you are right. The 

pivoting -- actually we don't call them grab bars we call them 

support arms. Typically they are up. They are really meant 

for people who are elderly and are able to you know bring 

them down. Because for somebody who wants to transfer 

from the chair to the toilet, there are the other grab bars there 

where you can -- they can be used and they are attached to 

the wall. So, these support arms are really not meant to be 

used for somebody in the chair to transfer. But I realize, yes, 

for somebody who wants to use them. And needs a certain 
strength to put them up, again, you are right.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Marilyn?

>> Marilyn Golden: Hi Billy. I just -- I thought this was 

a very interesting presentation. I just wanted -- I noticed 

that these are very accessible features. And that there are 

probably more -- they are probably more accessible than 

what we see in the U.S.

So, it's worth paying attention to by all of us. I am really 

glad that you were here to present it. 

>> Uwe Rutenberg: As I mentioned before, we have it a 

little bit easier we only have to make one car per train 

accessible. It's not like in the U.S. where you have to make I 

think all cars accessible. Which makes it a little bit more 

difficult.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Can I ask at a later date can you 

show us the sleeper car or that -- and as you alluded to you 

have one car per space and you have one space. And 

knowing that can dah's demographics -- Canada's 

demographics is much like America's in terms of baby 

boomers how are you handling the aging couples that may 

have to (inaudible). And they want to get on the train 

together. What is going on with those folks? And what to 

you do when somebody down the line also wants to get on?

>> Uwe Rutenberg: I think it probably comes down to 
the question of demand. You are right, I mean, if you have 

two persons in a wheelchair traveling at the same time on the 

train, it's a problem. And we at the moment cannot 

accommodate them.

The what we found so far this situation has been very, 

very rare. But it exists. I am not saying that it doesn't exist. 

We have made room for this actually in the sleeper car, and 

unfortunately I didn't bring the pictures here. Because there 

is another section for the committee here to deal with this.

What we have done, we have made one end of the sleeper 

car completely accessible for a person in a wheelchair with a 

companion. Which means, this car or this end also has power 

sliding doors. You come in and it has two compartments. 

One is a compartment which has a toilet and shower it's an 

accessible shower. The other one, which is the kind of 

sleeping compartment, has an accessible bed. It has a 

second bed for the companion. It has a table, a fixed table 

where both of them can sit opposite each other. It has all of 

the accessible features like light switches, en entertainment 

controls, all available from the position of the bed. The bed 

can also be converted into a sofa. The one -- the biggest 

problem that we have found in arranging these designs is the 

height of the bed, because many people forget that to transfer 

from a wheelchair to a bed you have to have the same height. 
And you know some people use transfer boards, some people 

use assistants. But the basic requirement is really to have a 

height that is compatible with your wheelchair height. And 

that was one of the biggest problems to solve because 

typically trains have these sleeper cars they have this 

arrangement where they are already constructed in such a way 

that there is a lower berth and the upper berth so they have it 

do quite a bit of reconstruction on this. But finally they did. 

And so, we tried to accommodate everything from a person in 

a wheelchair traveling alone from a person in a wheelchair 

with a companion, but, also, you can have people let's say a 

person who is traveling with little kids, or pregnant women, 

with a big stroller. So, this compartment is actually meant for 

all kinds of disabilities to be used, so it's not only for a very 

specific group of people. And we tried to accommodate as 

many as possible in order to also make it profitable for the 

carrier.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Just a follow-up. What is the 

VIA rail ridership?

>> Uwe Rutenberg. What is the ridership?

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yes, what are -- MCAT moves 

80-plus million people last year. What is VIA rails what is 

their ridership roughly?

>> Uwe Rutenberg: I really don't know. Don't forget 
the whole of Canada has only 32 million people less than 

California. The only thing I can tell you our main routes from 

Quebec City to Montreal Toronto and then down to the west 

coast Vancouver. In terms of people traveling in wheelchairs, 

typically on the east coast we have about 2 to 3 persons in a 

wheelchair per day. Per train. In terms of the whole demand 

on VIA rail in terms of -- I really don't know I couldn't tell you.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Any other questions? Or comments? 

Dennis

>> Dennis Cannon: This isn't the question so much I 

want to put something up for discussion later and that's the 

number of spaces in a train car.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: And Dennis, didn't you also 

once mention you wanted to talk about floor --

>> What?

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: (inaudible) nonslip flooring.

>> Dennis Cannon: Yes, nonslip flooring.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: Nonslip flooring? Oh, yes, yes. 

Yeah, I think that's probably understood now as a 

requirement, we have the same in bosses and aircraft and I 

think that suppliers are doing just that. -- that suppliers are 

doing just that.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Any questions from those on the 

phone? I think we still have folks out there in phone land. I
want to make sure if you have comments or questions that 

you are heard. So, if there is anybody got any questions?

>> Linda still here, and no I don't any questions.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Okay. Thanks Linda.

>> Dennis Cannon: I am presuming that the 

configuration of this restroom because it's bigger than a 

single aisle, that the aisle is offset like it is in the Acela train? 

So the aisle is off to one side as opposed to being down the 

center?

>> Uwe Rutenberg: Correct.

>> Dennis Cannon: What happens in the vestibule do 

you have steps or boarding

>> It's level and you have no threshold between vestibule 

floor and interior car door.

>> Can't hear over here.

>> You need the mic?

>> No.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> We captain hear you.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: Dennis was asking if there was a 

threshold between the vestibule and interior car no it isn't it's 

a flat surface from the vestibule to the interior of the car.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: One design question that I had, 

was there a discussion about whether to locate accessible seat 
on the opposite side of the cab so your (inaudible) won't have 

folks walking up the -- up behind you. Constantly. Or is 

that -- or was that ever a discussion point?

>> Uwe Rutenberg: If I understand correctly --

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Right now there is a hallway is 

right behind the accessible space.

>> Correct.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Was there any discussion as to 

the design perspective, whether it might be more beneficial to 

put the accessible space on the other side of the car.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: No. Let me just go back I think I 

know what you are referring to here. How do I go back here. 

I don't know how to work this backwards.

>> These are the two accessible seats opposite the 

wheelchair position. They are also on this side where the 

wheelchair is, you will see --

>> Can you go back to the general floor plan it might be 

more obvious back further. There.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: This probably shows it more even. 

Let me just see. Here you can see it. This is -- these two 

seats here (indicating) are accessible seats in terms of 

accessible from the aisle because they are pivoting -- they 

have pivoting armrests. All these two seats (indicating) 

opposite the wheelchair position they are also accessible. 
They have also pivoting armrests and are at the same floor 

level as all of this whole area here as well. So, you have 

actually four seats that are transfer seats. If somebody, let's 

say in a scooter, is parking his scooter here he has the choice 

he can either sit here or he can use these either of these 

seats. They are all the same, have all of the same 

accessibility aspects.

>> Dennis Cannon: You are asking the wheelchair space 

at the bottom there, if somebody is facing to the right, that 

table then people walking up the aisle come behind them. Is 

that what you are asking in effect?

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yes, was there discussion about 

that aspect of locating that seat there, so no matter what, 

either someone is going to bump into your chair at some 

point or you always got that sick sense are somebody walking 

up behind you.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: So far we haven't had any neglect 

tiff feet back--feedback op that aspect at all.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Okay. 

>> BILLY ALTOM: Got you Andre >> In 

response to a question that was made earlier in the TSI was 

referring to earlier the specification for interoperability and 

other standards they refer to a force of 20 Newtons which is 5 

pounds to actuate anything inside the toilet that would 
include the handrails you need a spring to have inside the 

mechanism spring assisted mechanism to be able to lift the 

handrail to meet that target.

>> Sorry what was the question Andre I couldn't get that

>> The question earlier it was very -- it required a lot 

of force to lift one of the handrails. So the idea is, yes, there 

is a requirement in the new regulations for it to have a 

5-pound or almost 5-pound maximum force to actuate the 

actual device inside the toilet.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: Okay. Appreciate that. Thank 

you.

>> Sometimes those like in the door requirements door 

operation that 5 pounds refers to once you break the inertia 

of the door and these armrest cases, they are spring loaded 

ball bearings into a recess that 5 pounds. I am not sure that 

applies to the breaking of inertia, but once you break it to 

bring it into the up right position I don't know if that's 

detailed or technical. But in the case of doors, when you 

open a door the door opening pressure inertia of the door is 

after you break the inertia. So I would assume it might follow 

in the case of raising the arms.

>> Could be.

>> I think Dennis -- don't mean to put words in your 

mouth might be referring to breaking it the initial inertia 
getting it out of the lock position. Once it's starting to raise 

it's easier to do but it's breaking the position piece. They 

were basically heavy in general.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Question from the audience please 

right there and state your name too

>> Frank Maldari, MTA Railroad, this is a good slide I 

wanted to make everybody aware of the differences between 

commuter and inter-city. When you look at this these two 

versions here you will see that if you only look at the 

compartment where the change was made you lost 12 seats. 

That's 12 widely-spaced seats with tables in between them. 

In the commuter operation it's you know on the order of 16 to

20 seats. Now, that's a nice roomy layout, and there is a lot 

of accommodation there. But losing 20 seats in a commuter 

rail car is really big and really difficult to overcome when you 

limited -- when you are limited by capacity. The point I am 

making is you can't get everything that you can in certain 

applications in the commuter car. You got to be -- recognize 

the difficulty in trying to fit the foundations that are very 

spacious in certain inter-city cars into a commuter car where 

you have people standing because there is not enough seats. 

The other thing that I wanted to point out there this is a good 

picture for that. If you look down the aisle the bathroom 

blocks a clear view down the aisle. Typically for our crews 
they want to be able to see down the aisle to the vestibules, 

we have quarter point doors this is a little different situation. 

Even if you had put the restroom on the other side of the car, 

you still would be blocking the aisle. And that's one of the 

constraints that we have with the toilet compartment is 

keeping it clear of clear view of the aisle from end to end.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: Yes, I think those are very good 

points. I want to make one thing clear. This was not meant 

for commuter trains at all. I understand your con trains. We 

have the same when it comes to commuter trains they even 

don't have accessible wash rooms at all because they are 

usually short distance. This is really meant for inter-city 

train travel.

>> Frankl Maldari: Thank you. We have been talking 

about a lot of inter-city type of equipment so far this morning 

and I just wanted to bring up that commuter and transit is 

very different in many ways. And you got to keep an eye 

open for the differences when you are looking at putting 

accommodations in that kind of equipment.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Frank, I just have a question. 

(inaudible) bi-level coaching or single coaches. Obviously a 

bi-level coach you will have a clear view and -- unless you 

duck down or scoot over.

>> Frankl Maldari: Most of our equipment is single level 
we do have some bi-levels on the single level the aisle is 

offset but there is still a clear path even though it's offset. 

When we put the bathrooms on the car we put them on the 

three-seater side to have the maximum amount of space for 

the bathroom.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yep.

>> Frankl Maldari: But even with that you can see past 

the bathroom.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you. Anybody else?

>> Blair Slaughter, Amtrak. Those cars are European 

origin, aren't they?

>> Correct, yes.

>> Blair Slaughter: They are an anomaly for North 

America, they are a narrower car which is why they only have 

the two in one seating condition.

>> They are bought from the UK after finished.

>> Blair: I remember when they were coming over 

someone tried to sell them to Amtrak too.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you very much. Anybody on 

the phone have a question we still have one --

>> Robert Carlson: Just on the cars that -- the MARC 

train system the difference between a standard car and cab 

car with restroom is 5 seats I don't see--you know, this 
particular design takes more for some other reasons but as a 

commuter car it is a -- 5-seat offset with a restroom.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Good point.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: Yes.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Anybody on the phone have a 

question?

>> This is Linda. I had a question. Basically I was just 

curious if he knows is Canada goes -- going towards as it 

acquires new cars that they be accessible or is the one car per 

train rule voluntary rule set you know in the future? I am only 

saying that because here in the U.S. we -- we you know, 

over time require new cars to be accessible in '95 I believe 

switched over to all cars needed to have at least one space. I

was just curious whether Canada is doing the same thing or 

not.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: We just acquired a new set of 

rolling stocks, rolling stock. As I mentioned before, these 

came from Europe they were kind of half finished. So, the 

policy here was to equip these new cars and make them 

accessible. One coach car per -- in the future all new cars 

that have -- that come into service have to have the kind of 

same accessibility features as they have them now --

>> Linda: Right. Well that's good news, thanks.

>> BILLY ALTOM: One more.
>> On the power door locks, do they have a manual 

override? Are you stuck in there if the electric doesn't work?

>> Uwe Rutenberg: I think there is manual override but 

I haven't heard of it being used, yes, there is one.

>> BILLY ALTOM: The question did you hear that? Was 

there a manual override for the electric doors so if you lock it 

can you get out if the power goes out and -- yes. Yes is the 

answer.

>> Linda Martin: This is Linda. One more time I was 

speaking of inter-city rail, commuter rail has different rules 

with regard to accessibility. They have to be accessible but 

they have a one car per train rule. Jon is there he could talk 

about it if he wanted. I work for FRA, so I am very FRA 

focused I apologize to the commuter rail people in the room.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Awesome. Thank you, Linda.

>> Thanks.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Any other questions comments? 

Going once going twice thank you very much I appreciate your 

time.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: Thank you.

 (APPLAUSE) 

>> BILLY ALTOM: Up next I got Josh with Talgo.

>> Josh Coran: This presentation probably 

belongs -- is Chapter 1 in Melissa's Rail 101. I think most of 
the railroad people here are going to be bored by this. But it 

occurs to me that we use the term bi-level very 

indiscriminately. There is actually three very distinct kinds of 

vehicles that we call bi-level. And it's probably very handy 

for people to understand that as time goes on because 

normally we will say bi-level but people from the context will 

know what we are talking about. But if you don't know the 

three types you will be lost. So, okay. The first of the three 

types these are in chronological order in which they were 

invented. It's better called a gallery call. This is very familiar 

to people from Chicago or folks from Virginia in this 

neighborhood because VRE runs a lot of these cars. They 

basically have balconies above the seats you can think of them 

as a typical single aisle airplane arrangement with baggage 

bins you have seats up there. The second kind was invented 

by predecessor of Bombardier (inaudible) for the Toronto 

commuter area in the early 70's I believe. It is a registered 

trademark by Bombardier the Bi-level it has three levels which 

further confuses things.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Josh Coran: Finally, we have what I prefer to call a 

high-level car which is came about in actually I got the order 

wrong the first of these cars was built in 1954 by the Budd 

company the design was dusted off I guess in the 90's for 
commuter use. And that's Stan's surfliner, a California car. 

So, before I get started in looking at the three different cars 

let's look at a single level car, which is more familiar with 

everybody we will get terminology straight here. And get 

everybody oriented. It was commented a little while ago 

Chris talked about ice in the vestibule. You look at the top 

right corner picture you understand where we are coming 

from historically. We used to have open platform cars. 

Someone came up with the idea to enclose the platform and 

make an arctic entry. It was never intended to be inside the 

car it was outside never heated. It was stainless steel to keep 

it clean I guess. That's why we don't even think about 

keeping the ice and snow and cold out of those areas. That 

car is actually compatible with the car to the left (indicating) 

which is 1950 vintage car Amtrak inherited from the union 

Pacific Railroad those two cars coupled together you could 

walk from one to the other it would be a little breezy when 

you got on to the old car it's not enclosed by the walkway is 

the same height. The middle picture, the bottom picture I 

guess is of AmFleet, car I think a 2 about 1974 or '78. I think 

AmFleets are more familiar they were built in 1975. The 

basic body plan a vestibule used as a high level platform. 

You see in the bottom right picture there, there is a 

gentleman standing on the trap door over the step. You can't 
see it as a step because it folds up and it's hidden. The 

Union Pacific car on the left the step is folded down so you 

can see where it is. But it also has that same trapdoor 

arrangement and go to a high level platform it's a feasible 

arrangement. The bottom left you see end view of the car. 

On the right side you see the steps going down to a standard 

8 inch above top of rail platform. There are 5 steps there 

pretty steep going from 8 inches to 51 inches to top of rail. 

On the left side you see what happens when you are against 

high level platform. That's almost level boarding. The 

reason I say almost standard 48 inches car floors are 1. We 

have allowed 5/8 inch with the final rule we start off with a 

3-inch difference the reason for the difference, they had steel 

springs the more people on the car the car would sink. 

Couplers are required to be 34 and a half inches was nominal 

and as low as 31 and a half the springs could set tell as much 

as 3 inches that's why the platform is 3 inches below the 

empty car flow. We have air springs they can adjust as 

people get on air is added. And it stays level. That just 

guarantees the 3-inch error. Again, the passage from car to 

car is still at 51 inches nothing changed in 150 years. Then 

the Budd company invented the gallery car which Metra calls 

the bi-level. But as you can see in the bottom right picture 

nowhere in the car people can stand one above the other. 
You can stand on the lower level in the central aisle between 

the balconies. You can stand in the balconies besides the 

single row seats nowhere do people stand one above the 

other it's not bi-level I would like to call it one and a half. 

Gallery car is the proper name. There is one exception to the 

picture that we see here. This car is pretty typical. In fact, 

we saw a picture of a lady being loaded on to one of the cars 

station born wheelchair lift in the center vestibule hey has 

built in interior steps that go down to the 8-inch high 

platform. If you pull up alongside the 48-inch platform you 

see on the bottom left there is no way to get out of the car. 

You go down the steps, you are almost at ground level. If 

you put a bridge plate there or a trapdoor like we have in the 

conventional car, the door header is way too low. It really 

has to be because we cut a notch in the side of the car to put 

steps in where we are weakening very greatly. We need the 

deep section above the door to meet the FRA strength require: 

You can't raise the door arbitrarily. However, you can still put 

this car into a conventional train and couple to the ancient 

coach I had on the first slide and walk through from one to 

the other. The floor is a little lower in the car the main floor 

bottom floor the ends are not. The buffer is at 51 inches 

there is a ramp and sometimes a single step to get to that 

level to go into the next car. This is still compatible with 150 
years worth of equipment.

Now, we come to the multi level car the Bombardier 

registered trademark bi-level it's commonly used in the south 

and wet of the United States from Miami to Seattle Vancouver 

has them Toronto has thousands, I think. Very popular 

design. But it's got three levels it's designed to be boarded 

from 8-inch high platform you see the quarter point doors 

there. There is internal step there was one external step you 

go up two steps from the 8-inch platform to the 24-inch high 

floor. From there you can go to -- go up to the mezzanines 

as they are called on each end. Guess what? They are still at 

51 inches above the truck the wheel assemblies they have to 

be about that height before the coupler. You could still walk 

into a 150-year-old car from that end. Most passengers 

continue up to the upper level you see from the sill low wets 

you can stand two people can stand one above the other in 

the center section between the trucks. Between the wheels.

On the left at the bottom you will see a variation. Utah

has a passenger, only section of track where they have raised 

that exterior step to be flush with the floor and the platforms 

are at 24 inches. They actually can provide level boarding at 

every door on every train. This is a very unusual situation, in 

fact it's unique. These cars do that only in that one-- on that 

one property. 
This is a variation of the multi-level design. You see 

here on the east coast. The basic body plan of the car is the 

same. You can still walk through to the next car at the 

51-inch height. But the entry is on that mezzanine level. 

That puts it within the 3 inches at least of the standard 

48-inch high level platform. The down side is that when you 

get on that -- into that entrance with a mobility aid you pretty 

much are stuck there it's a pretty small area. Most people go 

up or down from there. I was talking to a gentleman from 

New Jersey Transit earlier, and if the ride is short I guess all of 

us have ridden Metro know you are a little worried about 

getting too far away from the door you worry about getting 

off. People stay on the entry level if the ride is short. Most 

of the seats are in upper and lower levels. There is four 

examples here they all basically have the same feature the one 

in the bottom left is notable New Jersey's I am tempted to call 

it Rube Goldberg. It's not nice.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Josh Coran: It really works fairly well. The door you 

can see be used at a high level or low level platform and can 

be opened remotely by the train crew from another car. The 

train line operations. It's really a very clever design. The 

yellow thing you see across, at the floor level is kind of a gap 

filler it pulls out of the way when the door opens if the trap is 
open and you are going to go down to a low level platform. 

Aside from that little detail they are actually all very similar. 

Now, we come to the first car that isn't so similar. In 1954, 

the Budd Company came up with the idea for the Santa Fe 

Railway. They built similar cars with the car to car entry of 

about 100 inches above top of rail. You see it's much, much 

higher than conventional cars. And the entry is guaranteed 

to be at a low level platform. There is no way to have it as a 

high level platform. You enter hoe level 18 inches or some 

cars I think were built at 17 inches. Again, we have the 

platform error, because the -- those platforms for these cars 

are envisioned to be at 15 inches which gives you the 3-inch 

guaranteed problem. And in addition to that, in many states 

I am not sure about California, I know in Wisconsin, there are 

state laws that prohibit platforms at that height to be close 

enough to the car to maintain the 3-inch maximum gap. 

This is because -- this would probably not be applicable on 

the passenger only line but it's to protect railroad employees 

riding on the sides of freight cars when spotting them into 

industrial sightings or what have you. There would have to 

be a gap filler to provide level boarding and we have to do 

something about the 3-inch error. This car is the one 

Melissa mentioned as being prototype for the PRIIA standard 

bi-level car we showed the slide similar to this showing there 
is limited facilities on the bottom level everything you need is 

there. But most people go to the upper level that's where the 

seats are and access to the rest of the train is there.

So, there are the three different kinds. I have a handout 

similar to that if people want to pick it up I am happy to 

entertain questions or there is my contact information 

whenever you are so moved.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Stan?

>> Stan Hunter: Thank you -- Stan Hunter. Thank you 

Josh for this. I think this is a very good clear indication of 

varieties of multi level bi-level and single level of equipment 

that are operating in the north American rail network in a 

variety of geographical regions. I think it's important for the 

committee to understand the technical differences when we 

refer to things as bi-levels multi-levels or gallery cars. Also, 

one of the questions that came up this morning during 

Melissa's presentation was viewing the floor plan for the new 

NGEC car what were the empty spaces at either end of the 

lower level. This presentation answers that question on the 

lower level, that's the equipment room that's over the wheels. 

That's where the air conditioning units are the waste tanks 

water tanks all of those sorts of things. So, that's what is in 

that it's a low ceiling area the clearance is only 3 feet from the 

floor to the ceiling in that equipment room. Also, in the 
picture that Josh has, up here for the high level car or bi-level 

car or the next generation car, if you can go back to that 

picture, Josh.

>> Which one

>> Stan Hunter: The photograph you had with the 

surfliner car. The second car back in that train, this is one of 

our surfliner trains in Southern California. The second car in 

the train is one of Amtrak's super liner coach cars and you can 

see a super liner car as Josh was mentioning they have the 

same high level pass through on the upper level for one car 

type to another but that car you can barely see it in this 

indication that car has one door on the lower level in the 

center of the car it's a single panel door it's a manual door 

only, I think Blair the super liner doors are 32 inches wide?

>> Blair Slaughter: About 34.

>> Stan Hunter: And then on the photograph you can 

see here on the surfliner car you see the twin vestibules we 

have two public side entry vestibules with twin power train 

line doors those are the vestibules are 52-inch wide door 

openings as Melissa mentioned this morning in the 

presentation. That's a little bit of a additional description 

about the type of equipment California operates and that we 

are buying on behalf of the NGEC for California and the 

midwest. Josh, thanks again for your presentation.
>> BILLY ALTOM: Anybody else have any? First here. 

>> In our discussion with the PRIIA group the question always 

came up how do we make the second level accessible for a 

person in a wheelchair. And there was the fact mentioned 

that or the idea came up should there be an elevator in this 

car to bring people up from the lower level to the second 

level. I just wanted to ask anybody if -- is there anybody 

who has experienced anything similar and so can you share 

this information with us?

>> Josh Coran: Actually, I can answer that question. 

This is Josh, Alaska Railroad for which I worked 21 years has 

true bi-level cars I guess you call them built by Colorado rail 

car which didn't know you couldn't do such a thing. And it 

has a full width and length deck on the upper level and the 

lower level. So, people stand one over the other above a 

truck which you never see in the other designs. And some of 

those cars do have elevators. And I spoke to the chief 

mechanical officer there just a few months ago, and he said 

they -- I was trying to encourage him to tell me how terrible 

these things were. And he said they were at first but they

seem to have them working okay now. Now, that said, this is 

a summertime tourist operation the equipment goes back to 

the same shop every second night at least it's very well cared 

for I don't know how practical it would be in general use.
>> Thank you.

>> Mike Wetherell. Just a quick comment on that. 

When you look at the designs here one thing that is in 

common is where you enter is where you have your 

accessibility. To create something inside the car that could 

move someone from one level to the other it's interesting but 

it's not practical. We got to look at safety. If you have 

somebody that happens to be put on an upper level, and that 

thing worked great getting them up there but something goes 

wrong and now it doesn't work getting them down you put 

yourself in a really bad position. You need to make sure that 

we look at safety and we look at the all passenger safety and 

so, if we are alighting we need or getting on board we need to 

be able to get off safely. I am not saying every situation you 

can't find that it doesn't work for even where you are 

boarding. But I am just saying, that we need to look at 

making sure that we are not putting ourselves out there trying 

to-- trying to accommodate something that is out of the 

ordinary but putting somebody in a bad position.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Jackson and then Ed then Stan. Then I 

got audience.

>> Jackson: In Japan on one of their trains the E4 series 

they have a lift inside the bi-level coach now the practice that 

has been in Japan similar in Europe only one car train or is 
accessible so that particular car has the lift for someone to 

enter and go up to the accessible seating on the second level.

>> Can it be operated during travel?

>> Jackson Xue: I believe so. I have to check, double

check that for you.

>> Thank you.

>> Ed Hoff: What -- when we talk about providing 

access off of that boarding level, this is where the commuter 

rail differs or should differ from the inter-city rail because 

somebody mentioned before about amenities as well. You 

have -- you may have a difference in amenities on the 

inter-city rail that you won't have necessarily on the 

commuter rail commuter rail is seating only identical top and 

bottom. The only issue perhaps is subrogation. I did 

mention that to Josh earlier in New Jersey Transit it's not an 

issue that I happen to be aware of only because we have 

people in the short distance between stations we have people 

getting on and off all the time. And generally we are pretty 

crowded pretty much all of the time. You never are alone in 

the intermediate level it's a popular level to sit op. There is 

seating available not quite as plush perhaps on the upper and 

lower levels you might find one table on the upper level no 

tables elsewhere in the whole rail car. But it's certainly not 

it's an integratable situation. I could see there would be a 
difference in amenities on an inter-city rail station.

>> Stan Hunter: This is Stan Hunter, one other 

consideration is as we continue to design rail cars 

with features, more accessible space, seating, more luggage 

and trash storage we find the space is at a premium. 

Essentially in our services in California, what we are finding is 

more and more as the population ages and people are 

growing increasingly unable to climb stairs we are finding that 

the lower level seats in the cars are becoming more and more 

in did he manned. From our viewpoint, you can see how big 

the footprint is for the accessible toilet room we acknowledge 

that that is an absolutely indispensable element of lower 

element of all of the cars every car we own has a lower level 

restroom -- that would remove yet even more space for 

people who need to have the lower level seating who aren't 

able to climb the stairs to the upper level of the cars. It really 

becomes for us a concern about the amount of available 

seating on the lower level to accommodate people as well.

>> Dennis Cannon: Okay. I am glad that you did this 

presentation. I wondered what all of those different kind of 

cars were. One of the things that we have to remember is we 

are talking about the guidelines in this exercise are for new 

cars only. So, we are not going to be retrofitting any cars. It 

might be that the guidelines we come up with would exclude 
one type of car or another from future -- you know you 

couldn't build one again unless you did something really 

creative. So, my question is: Of all of these different types 

of cars, aside from the fact that some agencies running say 

gallery cars want to have them look all the same, aside from 

that, is there a reason why there are so many different kinds 

of configurations?

>> Josh Coran: That's a very good question. I am 

sure -- I am sure there is a reap. Each agency has its own 

desires. I think the--if you look right from the first 

departure from the single level car every step has been to try 

to cram more people into the standard 85-foot length car 

length. That's what every one of these innovations is all 

about. The high level car was also more of a luxury vehicle it 

was intended for Chicago to Los Angeles service initially in 

1956 they were long distance versions the soup liner are long 

distance it's nice and quiet it might be another reason. Each 

of the three basic designs has at least one big agency behind 

it. So, I don't really see anybody sitting down and letting its 

design become illegal.

>> Dennis Cannon: What about in items of platform 

height is there a reason that these are different?

>> Josh Coran: Okay. The question is about platform 

height. I could go on forever on this stuff. The platforms 
are -- if we were lucky, they were 8 inches, a lot of times they 

are rail head level get a step box to get the first step up. 

Some-- when we invented the vestibule about 19 -- I mean 

1890, they first had it arranged you had to open the trapdoor 

first -- the vestibule door -- somebody caught on fast. If 

you did it the other way around you have the capability of 

being -- you walk out on a high level platform building Penn 

Station in New York in 1905 or 07.

>> (inaudible)

>> Josh Coran: That early Grand Central 1913 these are 

passenger only tracks there are no trains in Manhattan they 

built high-level platforms there. They were able to use the 

trapdoor arrangement to accommodate just those two cities 

and maybe Newark was built with high level platforms 

Philadelphia 30th street came shortly there after. Then we 

invented the dome car and people realized you could have 

goose neck upped frame or split level kind of car the dome 

cars had very short multiple level. They by making them 

longer they could get more people in. And we started getting 

things like gallery cars and the superliners. That locked in 

those cars. Then we go to low level platforms the high level 

platform is halfway between the two levels. Now, we have a 

vulcanized system some equipment can only run in the east 

some in the west.
>> You left out your own cars, how about showing us an 

explanation of Talgo Cascade cars and the one warehouse.

>> Josh Coran: Two sets. If anybody has spare change 

they are available. I left them out intentionally they are 

basically single level cars. They are half a car length long 

this, this is going to bring in a whole other discussion. They 

are articulated, which means they are permanently coupled to 

each other, you have to spend 8 hours in a shop to take them 

apart than the 8 minutes with the conventional car. I

consider the entire train to be a single car. Each unit is half 

as long as conventional car seats half many people one 

quarter as many people of high level cars and yet has to have 

the same handicap or I mean disabled spaces.

>> Go on.

>> BILLY ALTOM: I have Jim Jon and then I have Ed okay. 

Jim?

>> Jim: Floor height is another sad story up until the --

>> Josh Coran: The equipment running in the cascade 

service now was built in the 90's and the floor height is about 

24 inches. Talgo's latest series we started operating two of 

them in the Pacific Northwest, it's 30 inches. So, 

with -- nothing is going to match anything I am afraid.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Jim. Introduce yourselves and state 

your -- 
>> Jim Weisman, United Spinal Association I had a 

question that is -- you mentioned returning to 51 inches all 

the time. And it's designed to be able to do that. Would it 

be just as easy to design it -- probably not just as easy would 

it be possible to design it so that it aligns with platforms 

whatever the platform height?

>> Josh Coran: Well, you are talking about like a 

kneeling bus with --

>> Jim Weisman: Yeah, but that's just like a corner. 

This would be the whole --

>> Josh Coran: Yeah. I thought about that it certainly 

wouldn't be impossible. Do you remember the mobile 

lounges at Dulles Airport with the jack crews/

>> Yes.

>> Josh Coran: We could accommodate any platform 

height that would be clap trap on the cars a lot to go wrong a 

lot more weight I am afraid to go there.

>> Jim Weisman: Right. Suppose we are talking 3 or 4 

inches differential all the time.

>> Josh Coran: The 3 inches that's a self inflected 

wound. Blair needs to carry this back to the high speed folks. 

The new specification for the new high speed trains it's 

51-inch-high floor, they should do 48-inch set in concrete. 

The few inches isn't the problem. There may be a problem 
with the 5/8 inch tolerance we have wheel wear and civil 

engineers do things in feet not inches there is all kinds of 

variations keeping 5/8 is stuff. I got op the airplane and 

looked it wasn't 5/8 inches there the jet ray came out there 

was a lift that wept down the airplane had a funny shape. As 

standing there the thing jumps up and down and trying to 

maintain height. 5/8 is a real challenge. You can get close 

to that if we don't self inflict with this initial 3-inch error.

>> Jon Holbrook: I want to make everybody aware that, 

and Stan forgive me for bringing this up, there was a car the 

Cal Trans food service car the 14 California cars were 

designed and built with an elevator it wasn't a dumb waiter 

lift. This was the specification and I am sure that none of the 

group from Cal Trans that played a hand in that are still there. 

But we -- it was an aerospace company aerospace design. 

But the intent was that the elevator be ADA compliant the 

upper heavily of the dining car be ADA compliant which to the 

pest of my knowledge -- which to the best of my knowledge 

it was. There were some little areas I can remember talking 

to -- asking Dennis questions about, but you know equivalent 

facilitation. But it was -- that was the original intent. When 

the cars went into service, of course the cars were never used 

for their intended purpose as a dining car what not but the 

elevator cab the capacity people could go up -- if you are in 
the car you will notice there are windows in the doors and in 

the up stairs shroud which there would be no reason for if it 

was just a dumb waiter. But I do agree with Stan there was 

obviously reliability issues back then but I do agree that there 

would be a lot of liability issues you know -- hell you could 

figure out a stair lift. You know, if you had conductor that 

would facilitate somebody and you know if they--I remember 

talking to Vietnam vets out in LA when we were designing 

these things and they said, hell yeah put me up there. I will 

sign anything off. But the operators -- you know what is 

involved. I just want to make everybody aware at least it had 

been attempted, and I was asking Stan about it this morning 

and there were as far as the equipment reliability issues and 

obviously operational concerns also.

>> Stan Hunter: This is it Stan Hunter. Jon brings up 

some history in the California equipment, I want to clarify 

though the engineering was done to develop that design, they 

were never operated in that fashion because we as owners of 

the equipment Amtrak as operators of the equipment were 

never comfortable with the safety considerations and the 

reliability and the fact that if somebody got trapped in the 

elevator there would be no way to get them out. And the 

elevators were also designed to not have people in the 

elevator when the train was moving, they are powered off of 
the head end power if the head end power went out the had to 

be hand cranked at the bottom of the elevator shaft. And it 

was the decision was made that the hardware, though the 

engineering was done at that the hardware did not provide 

reliability and safety necessary in order to put it in revenue 

service. And our experience with those cars over the last 16 

years proved that that was the wise decision because just 

moving boxes of food up to the upper level alone proved to 

be a reliability problem. I am thankful we didn't allow 

passengers to use those elevators because we would have had 

reliability issues and safety issues we never had to evacuate a 

train through the use of one of those. But the engineering 

was done but it was never fulfilled as the technology to move 

people it was the elevators on the cars ever since the day 

placed in service those cars were used as dumb waiters to 

move food only.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you, Stan.

>> Mike Wetherell. Just clarification. Go to slide 

number 8 for a second. If you look at the upper left hand 

picture the Long Island Railroad multi-level vehicle. Actually, 

I know you made that reference to Penn Station and 

commuterism and whatnot. Up until around 1990, 

Long Island Railroad did have trapdoors and have stairwells. 

It was when these -- when Long Island Railroad made the 
decision to purchase the bi-levels that were going out using 

dual modes into December sill territory the decision was made 

to convert to all high level platforms for accessibility purposes 

I wanted to make that net. That's why this vehicle looks 

different it doesn't have the stairwells it looks similar to the 

Montreal one.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Perfect. We have Dennis.

>> Dennis Cannon: Okay. A couple of quick points, 

one is the purpose of this committee is to upgrade the current 

standards and guidelines and I want to make sure that nobody 

is thinking of going backward. The current part 38 rule says 

that high speed trains have to be level boarding. So it's not 

an option to have you know lifts and those kinds of things. I

want to make sure that is clear. The other thing as I said 

earlier, we wrote the guidelines on the kind of building code 

format. Which typically says, there is a minimum or 

maximum, and then an exception. Most of the people sort of 

didn't really quite get that idea from the engineering fields. 

So, I recommend that we follow what was done with the new 

guidelines for level boarding puss which is instead of talking 

about different gaps for new cars, new platform, old cars, new 

platform et cetera, simply say that when the gap horizontal 

exceeds, I would say 2 inches, or when the vertical 

displacement exceeds 5/8 inches then you have to provide 
some kind of device. And so, it's not a case of necessarily 

meeting those requirements it's a case of whenever you don't 

meet them you have to do something else like a ramp a 

bridge plate a lift.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you. Crystal?

>> Crystal: Well, I was just sitting here thinking about 

how that upper level really is an amenity there is really 

segregation when you are not able to go up there. You -- if 

you don't want to believe it you don't have to believe it but it 

is. And there really is a difference of what you see. Has 

anyone been to Mackinac Island here? I took my son when he 

was about 10-year-old I came home bragging to my husband 

about it was so cool there were no cars, just horses. It was 

just wonderful. It was just perfect. My son who uses a 

wheelchair said, yeah, but not from my point of view. All he 

saw was horses rear ends all weekends. I am sitting here 

thinking about that. When I think about all of these brilliant 

minds in the room saying it can't be done. Yeah, maybe 15, 

20, 30 years ago maybe it couldn't be done. Maybe there 

wasn't reliable things, whatever the need is, but maybe we 

should stretch a little and see is there any way, because 

the -- all of us in the room may be in a position in the near 

future where we would really like to be sitting up above. I

know Billy would like to be sitting in that upper level. And he 
has talked about the view of the tree trunks from Chicago to 

DC. You know it's not so cool. But I just maybe we can 

think about is there any way to go forward like Dennis keeps 

reminding us we are not talking about the past we are not 

talking about what we have right now. We are talking about 

what we would like the future to be. But I just feel like I 

needed to share that so --

>> BILLY ALTOM: Good point. I have Blair?

>> Blair Slaughter: Yes, thank you. First, I just wanted 

to reiterate that even when you look at the photograph of the

surfliner car which is an Amtrak car very much like the 

Cal Trans cars, and our am track's superliner behind it, the 

surfliner is sort of a the odd car it's a transitional car from 

service standpoint superliner being a long distance car 

opening its doors fairly infrequently surfliner filling the came 

between a true long distance car and computer situation 

which needs to be able to move more people on and off more 

rapidly. As you look through these various car types that's a 

very critical thing for everyone to keep in mind.

On the railroad side between Amtrak Long Island 

New Jersey Transit and California we have a lot of 

commonalities from the pure railroad standpoint, the flank 

works. Somewhere 48, 17, 18 inches above the track 

everything changes for the commuters. It's all about moving 
the masses and dwell time at stations, headway and getting 

everybody home and getting everyone to work safely. And 

when you go to subways and things like that, the criticality 

increases obviously the more people you are trying to move 

the more critical it is not to have to worry about how long it 

takes you to get on and off the train. And keep all of the 

safety issues at bay. So, you can wheel right on and step 

right on. There is no issues. When you get into long 

distance trains because the frequency of boarding is 

much -- much further apart. You have a little more time to 

spend at the stations. Not so much that the freight railroads 

puts us in a different slot and we get later than we are. But it 

is very different. And segue from that into the whole issue of 

the second level of bi-level cars if there is a -- there are 

people at Amtrak that will push me out in front of a train later 

for saying this, but --

>> (inaudible)

>> Blair Slaughter: You would be surprised. But the 

bi-level is a -- the bi-level cars when you are traveling in the 

lower level I mean I have traveled long distances on the upper 

level and the lower level, you do spend a lot of time down in 

the lower level looking at the tree trunks. And when you get 

into some areas it's almost irrelevant where you are because 

there is nothing. But there is a lot to see from the upper 
levels. I think if there is a place for transferring to the upper 

level of the train it's on the long haul trains. I wouldn't put

that burden on my friends at the commuters, because it 

would, I think it would be -- one you are going tore different 

reasons. You are trying to get 20, 30, 40 minutes to work or 

to home, your goal is not to look out at the scenery of 

Trenton New Jersey it's to get home.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Blair Slaughter: I like to pick at Trenton.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Blair Slaughter: But --

>> It's been a rough day in the government.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Blair Slaughter: I wasn't even thinking about you, 

poor guy. But I think that we do have to look at -- we have 

to open our minds abdomen get creative and see are there 

safe ways to make transition to move folks not in every car I 

don't want to say every vehicle. But when we are looking at 

amenities maybe a logical thing is you can go to the second 

level on a fixed number of cars, and you can transfer maybe 

to a diner would that be nice? But -- so I don't want to throw 

it out not everyone would agree with me but I think it's 

something that we need to at least investigate and not think 

just about elevators there is a lot of different ways to move 
diagonally to get to the vertical point. So, I think we need to 

think about those kinds of things.

>> BILLY ALTOM: I have Jim Chris and then Marilyn wrap 

us up.

>> Jim Weisman: I am glad Blair said what he said 

20-something years ago when we were writing ADA we had a 

presentation done for a committee the Amtrak appropriation 

committee done by Amtrak showing us why you will never be 

able to change cars while the train is in motion in a 

wheelchair. And it was very compelling. They showed us 

all -- all of the testimony problems that they would have try 

to go do that. Last night I came down on Amtrak while it was 

treacherous I am not a wheelchair user I was falling all over 

the place when the train was moving with the hot tea trying to 

balance when I changed cars there is quite a 

sophisticated -- somebody really thought this out. I was 

looking at every moving part of this it was fascinating to 

provide a way for a wheelchair user to go from car to car.

It clearly was done -- somebody thought of how to do it 

somebody investigated the money and research and 

development and it actually went into production after they 

insisted 22 years ago, whatever it was 24 years ago, just 

absolutely couldn't be done. We should -- we should not 

hope for it. But, you know, great minds get together in a 
room like this, I get to watch the great minds.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Jim Weisman: Do it. And figure out the solutions to 

problems like that. So I am glad you said don't give up on 

that stuff. And I also want to point out that not giving up on 

level boarding -- really level boarding where the car acts like 

an elevator and finds the landing where the elevator finds the 

landing the car finds the platform would increase safety for 

everybody. And it would end at least the vertical gap 

problem that has been plaguing wheelchair users on every 

system whether rapid rail or long haul trips. It's a big issue. 

And it -- if there is a way to do it, we shouldn't give up on it 

you know.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Chris and then Marilyn we will wrap 

this particular topic up.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: I just wanted to (inaudible). I

ride almost every weekday we use the bi-level or what Josh 

would call a multi-level car, and it works quite well for 

commuter purpose. And as long as you really don't care 

about looking out the window, and you just are going from 

point A to point B it works. And you don't care. But 

you -- if you would go to the next slide, slide 9 Josh. Yes. 

So the comment was made about looking at this, that is really 

distorted. You are one of the folks who wanted to take the 
surfliner, say, from San Diego up the coast so 

Amtrak -- to -- it's gorgeous scenery but when you sit on the 

lower level you don't really see much. I have done it a couple 

of times, and it would be fascinating study to mount two 

video cameras and just look at them side by side at what the 

difference is. And while we don't necessarily have authority 

to go out to every one there is as several of you mentioned a 

difference in what one sees. And (inaudible) I am happy to 

hear folks raise that issue. Because it's a real issue.

Finally, I would just ask for all of you rail equipment 

manufacturers is there a standard step height on the 

trapdoors? And if there is, what is it, and given your 

trapdoors are not going away any time soon, is that an area 

where safety-wise there needs to be a discussion about what 

those trapdoors steps look like?

>> Josh Coran: Well, the math tells you it has to be 8 

and a half inches because the bottom step 17 floor is 51, you 

know do the math. So that's pretty standard. The first step 

up from the platform is more from 8 to -- it's 9 inches from 8 

to 17. And of course it all varies with wheel wear and 

tolerances in the platform.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Okay. That said, my follow-up 

to that is: Why have European counterparts (inaudible) have 

the pop out steps for the bottom steps to reduce that first 
step height from the platform to the first step there.

>> Josh Coran: We could do that increase each step a 

little bit that would lower the bottom step but then we have 

clearance problems. Of course new cars the steps hold up 

when the car is moving. So that pulls it out of the clearance 

violation. So, yeah, we could do something like that.

>> BILLY ALTOM: And we have Marilyn.

>> Marilyn Golden: Thanks Billy. I had wanted to 

speak after Blair because it was so exciting to agree with what 

somebody from Amtrak said.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> (inaudible)

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Marilyn: And we will protect you.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Marilyn Golden: But I -- I agree with Jim. It's great 

that you raise the point that you did. And I just want to say 

that in terms of the comparison you made with between 

inter-city and commuter rail, on the one hand I agree 

that -- on the one hand I agree that it's more in line with the 

customer base and type of function that inter-city railways, 

having said that, I don't want to dismiss the fact that we may 

also expect that of computer rail. And that you know there 

are also good reasons to do it in that context.
>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Just one thing that I forgot to 

add. I think it goes to Stanton's point earlier. Every time 

that I have been on a superliner type train the person sitting 

next to me were all over 65. So, I was always the youngest 

one there. Clearly, they could get up the stairs but they 

couldn't get up the stairs. And that does raise an issue when 

we have 10,000 baby boomers a day turning 65.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Excellent. Anyone on the phone with

comments or questions for --

>> Operator, if you could unmute Ed Steinfield, please. 

>> BILLY ALTOM: Comments or questions?

>> Mr. Steinfield?

>> I don't have any.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Hearing none, that was -- thank you 

Josh, that was awesome.

 We have -- how many do we have. We are trying to 

get a break in. Make these quick folks in the audience.

>> Thank you Mr. Chair. Gary Talbot. I just -- I just 

wanted to real quickly I appreciate Blair Crystal I think Dennis 

hit the nail on the head. You will take the existing guidelines 

and improve the guidelines. I can tell you from personal 

experience, that you know riding in the first level there is 

about every five minutes you will see like an oh, if you are on 

the surfliner like Chris is talking while everybody else gets 
100% of wonderful incredible beauty. And I think just having 

those amenities they are so important whether it's the dining 

car or just going up to a dome car or something like that or 

sightseeing car I want to encourage you to keep driving down 

that path it's 30 years later there is a lot to be done. The 

other thing I would say from my experience I would say 

commuter inter-city they are different it's like Blair said folks 

get on our trains stay on for a long, long time. And a long 

time in between stops you have time to do things go upstairs, 

have dinner, things like that. You don't do that on a 

commuter situation.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Okay. Frank?

>> And I got you next.

>> Frankl Maldari: Frank Maldari, MTA. I want to 

expand on what Dennis was saying. Like Mike had said 

previously when we got the C3 cars we made a conscious 

decision to raise all of the platforms to make it more 

accessible for people to get on or off the train easier, faster. 

As a result of that, instead of you having to walk up and down 

with trapdoors you had nice mostly level boarding, only to 

find out a few minutes later to find the gap was too wide. We 

made great increase in accessibility by raising the platform 

and I think everybody here wants to encourage doing that. 

And when you put very tight tolerances on new platforms and 
new equipment you are actually discouraging that. Because 

meeting those high tolerances is very difficult to do. Josh 

was talking a little bit about the 3-inch gap on the -- you 

know how the suspension systems have changed. Some 

things have changed we do have air suspension but most cars 

have two stages of suspension they have a primary 

suspension which is just above the wheels to the truck and 

that is typically steel could be rubber but it's very necessary.

>> Talk normally.

>> It works better.

>> Frankl Maldari: And the second stage is usually air 

suspension. The air suspension doesn't just for passenger 

weight -- does add just for passenger weight the spring 

suspension doesn't. You have to keep in mind that there are 

times when the suspension system is dropping and the car is 

dropping. Having a car above the platform when we went 

through the gap group at RSAC we felt it was typically better 

to step up in the car upwards you want to the car higher. In 

addition to the suspension system dropping you have wheel 

car which Josh mentioned as well. On our system we typically 

like to keep the cars above the platform as the wheels wear 

and passengers get on it gets more level. We are 

approaching it that way. When you have a really tight 

retirement on the 5/8 of an inch it discourages people from 
attempting that. Most of the platforms of very close to that 

but we have bridge plates in every car. And if -- if your chief 

goal is to get on and off the car as easily as possible allowing 

a bridge plate when you don't meet the requirements which is 

what Dennis was saying before is the best way to achieve your 

goal having relatively level boarding ease of getting on and off 

the train without an overly restrictive tolerance on the 

platform and car.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you. And David?

>> Yes. I am David from Amtrak. I had a question -- I 

have noticed several videos on the Internet and other places 

that some of the rails light rails or high speed or whatever 

they have emergencies -- they have--they have roll out 

bridge plates, excuse me.

You know, with an automatic roll out so they can open. 

And it seems like people who are traveling in wheelchairs tend 

to get on those and then fall off. You know, or they try to do 

it themselves instead of waiting for someone to put the bridge 

plate on. And I think that if we have anymore information 

that we can collect about that, that might be a benefit. And 

perhaps solve that issue and fix that gap. For that platform 

for people who are boarding.

>> You are talking about gap fillers?

>> David: I am not exactly sure if my language is the 
correct terminology but I call it automatic bridge plates.

>> BILLY ALTOM: One last question.

>> I was going to give them a white paper on --

>> BILLY ALTOM: He was going to give him paperwork on 

the bridge late. Awesome. Josh? Thank you very much. 

That was a great presentation.

 (APPLAUSE) 

>> BILLY ALTOM: We are going to take a break now. 

Let's take 15 minutes. We will have our final presentation by 

the Washington Metro Transit Authority.

>> Participants on the line, the line will remain open 

between the break for the telephone participants.

(Short recess taken.) 

Rail Vehicles Access Advisory Committee

U.S. Access Board-afternoon session

Thursday January 9, 2013

(Short recess taken.) 

>> BILLY ALTOM: If you see the flashing lights, it means 

it's time to come back together. We have one more 

presentation for the day and we will start the discussion on 

how we want to do the committees.

Awesome. All right. All righty folks, we are just about 
ready for our final presentation today. The Washington 

Metropolitan Area Transit Authority. They are going to tell us 

about the 7000 series rail car. Take it away.

>> Thank you. Good afternoon everybody. If you 

haven't -- if you are not from Washington you haven't had a 

chance to ride Metrorail I invite you to do that. Metrorail is 

not inter-city car or commuter car we went through a 7-year

customer focused process to find out what your customers 

want in a new car. And we listen very carefully. It was very 

intensive when it came to the disability community working 

with our customers with disabilities, and our accessibility 

advisory committee. We learned a few things there are quite 

a few improvements in the car in the subway car may have 

application to inter-city or commuter cars we thought you 

would be interested to hear about that. If we go move to the 

next slide. I would like to say, -- I do this? Self service.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> BILLY ALTOM: Look down underneath (indicating).

>> Okay. I would like to mention that you know 

Metro -- I they it's important to say, that Metro's first priority 

is safety in June 2009 we had a terrible car accident involving 

our 1000 cars where 9 people died. The new 7000 car was 

built with safety in mind. It's built much higher standards for 

crashworthiness. It's built to higher standards for fire. It 
has event recorders on board. It has digital video 

surveillance. And it has anti climbers built into it to keep the 

cars in line and up right in case of an accident. So, having 

said that, 300 of the new cars we are ordering Kawasaki, it will 

replace the 1000 cars, cars implicated in the accident. 

Another 128 will go to the silver line expansion we have 5 

new stations opening in western Fairfax. And we have a total 

commitment -- we are planning on buying 748 cars. So, let's 

talk about accessibility.

One of the things that we did we worked over a period of 

several years talking to our accessibility advisory committee to 

improve what we thought was already on accessible car. We 

heard things that weren't intuitive to us. Everybody 

understands priority seating but what we heard from the 

community was that -- there will be pictures as we go into 

this where you can see some of these things. That seats are 

nice but you need something to held onto to get out of those 

seats. So we added 25% more bars. And hand holds at the 

door and throughout the trains than our 6000 car that was 

more than the 1000, the 5000 series the there are vertical 

poles to help people stand up. We heard certain handholds 

are better for different people. They are great for people 

standing up to hold on to. And people were saying that. 

One of the things that we did was we added a privacy screen 
in our priority seating located in the center of the car 

alongside either door what we heard was that it's nice to have 

priority seating right where you can get to it but that means if 

you are near the door you are in the middle of rush hour. 

People are coming in and out of the cars with bags and 

everything. You are liable to get hit. They wanted 

protection. It's an accessibility requirement but it improved 

the riding experience. They asked for that. There are four 

priority seats for people with disabilities and seniors at the 

center doors. One of the things it should be in the same 

place we know where it's at we don't have to look for it. At 

the same time our customers use wheelchairs told us it's nice 

to get in the car but I like to get out of the traffic. So, we 

created parking areas on either side of the middle door 

opposite the priority seating especially colored flooring 

designated as wheelchair parking areas there is a symbol on 

the wall. And something we hadn't thought of they used 

U-shaped grab bar right there at the station. The idea was 

whichever way you pull in or back in there is a vertical bar to 

hold on to if you don't like that there is a horizontal bar. 

Similar to the designs that the car seats. So, people who use 

wheelchairs can get out of traffic and have something to hold 

on to as the train goes down the road.

I heard it was nice to be able to park your wheelchairs 
some customers said we want to go in one door and out the 

door. We increased aisle width from 32 to 34 inches to 

better accommodate that. We had it tested on the mockups 

they said they were fine with it. You can go from one end of 

the car of the other there are priority seating and wheelchair 

parking area we put emergency call buttons at both ends of 

the car and the center of the car no matter where you at you 

can get to the intercom and get to the train operator. One of 

the things that we were told was you cannot provide too much 

visual information about what car this is, where it's going and 

where I am at. So, we do have two ceiling mounted displays 

providing line station and destination information in the 6000 

series we improved that and added four more wall-mounted 

displays providing information. No matter where you are in 

the car, if you can't hear the announcements I will get to that 

in a moment, you are going to be able to see what station you 

are at the next station during the whole process of the trip.

Our customers told us they wanted us to automate the 

announcements in the trains. We have done it in the buses 

all of our buses have automated announcements in them. 

Providing cross streets and major stops and so forth. It 

works. People like that. One thing they tell us in a crowded 

bus, if you can't see outside don't know where you are at you 

are can hear -- you can hear where you are at. And our 
customers who road traps told us that's important as well. 

We needed to be able to hear that. We have done quite a few 

things with priority seating in our cars. One of the problems 

the subway system has it doesn't have conductors we don't 

have operational personnel back there to enforce priority 

seating rules so we have put strong seating signage in there. 

We made the priority seats a different color. And we have 

had educational campaigns to try to get our other customers 

to -- the right of some of our customers to use the seats. 

We have something in Metro -- if you haven't ridden the 

system you might want to look down if you do ride the system 

as you board the car we have something called a gap reducer. 

On a standard 3-inch gap we have taken up half of that with a 

gap reducer. And we did that some time ago. It was in 

reaction to comments from customers who use wheelchairs 

that any gap is bad. It doesn't work for me. My wheels can 

get stuck in there. So, we do have to respect car dynamics 

and safety envelopes but we took as much of it out as we 

could. About half of that gap is filled up with a gap reducer. 

It's attached to the side of the car. It's expendable made out 

of a hard scrubbable rubber in case we hit the platform. And 

we do pay attention to it. It works. Our customers who use 

wheelchairs tell us it works. One of the side benefits is we no 

longer have people -- universal design we no longer have 
people stepping into the hole. We used to have customers 

step into the hole and their leg would get stuck. And we 

have been able to stop counting those accidents you would 

have to have awfully small foot to put the foot down with the 

gap reducer there. This wasn't intuitive to us. They told us 

all destination signs as they pull into the station should be the 

same color. We should tell our customer what color line they 

are on blue red yellow orange silver green -- silver soon, 

green lines. The bars at the side should indicate colors as 

you see the car coming out of the at any knell into the station 

you don't have to look for the word you see the color and you 

know that that is the train that you want. We alternate 

between for example between blue and yellow trains or green 

and yellow depends on what line you are on.

So, one thing that our customers told us every time we 

talked to them we need to do something about the PA system. 

The PA system in the car is analog. And they are pretty old. 

And sometimes they are hard to hear. And old is hard to 

compete with the train the noise in the train station. You 

have cars arriving customer noise. Announcements in the 

station. We said we could do better we listened to that. We 

went to a digital system. When they are automated they will 

happen when they are supposed to.

One thing that we also heard we tried this in the 6000 
cars we used to have stanchions we still do on some cars. 

Near the car door opening. And our customers who use 

adaptive mobility devices said can you get them out of there. 

The reason being they are a roadblock. You can't get into the 

car, if there is a pole attached to the pole are a lot of people 

who like to hold on to the pole. They plug up the inside of 

the car. And you know, it keeps people from getting in and 

out. We removed the poles added hand grabs throughout the 

cars it actually, again universal design what we find it 

encourages people to move away from the door which speeds 

loading and unloading. And also makes it easier for 

customers with disabilities to get in. We have improved our 

flooring. One of the things that we heard we don't want 

slippery. We found the most nonslip material that we could 

find and we are outfitting the floors. We like that because we 

don't have to clean carpets it's better for our customers. If 

you had to clean carpets in 1100-some rail cars you would 

know what cleaning carpets is all about. Vinyl seat colors a 

small thing we thought about going to clam shell type seating 

the customers said we prefer to the comfortable. We have 

seat covers they are indestructible but we are going to 

continue with that. And the disability community said well 

that's not accessibility issue either we want the padded seats 

as well. So, hear is some pictures. I think this is a pretty 
good picture that documents the handholds the grab bars are 

on every seat. If you look down there is a little stanchion out 

of every seat. One of the things that we are able to do with 

this besides increasing the aisle width was to 

increase -- because we redesigned the seats. The seats were 

designed back in the early '70s to provide more leg room 

between the seats so you know, you still get to sit on a 

padded seat. And you are going to be able to stretch your 

legs a little bit more than you used to.

>> Excuse me, could we get rid of those lights?

>> The overheads. I am glad you mentioned lights. I

forgot something the customers told us. I didn't put it --

>> One of the things that we did the -- did our 

customers told us to improve the lighting in the vestibule area 

and we were able to increase the lighting there and just 

makes it easier for everybody. And for persons with low 

vision it is an accessibility issue, it's not spoken to directly in 

the ADA regulations but they told us it would be helpful so we 

did that. All right. I think this is a good representation of 

how open the car is. You are looking at the center doors, and 

you can see the priority seating on either side you can also 

seat the wheelchair parking area. This is an all graphic it 

doesn't show the floor with the different colored parking area 

you could see the ISA symbol on the wall. Folks out of traffic 
you see the U-shaped grab rails. You see it around the 

system map. And down on the right side toward the end, you 

can see one of the destination signs that's on the wall. There 

is four of them on the walls two on the ceilings. You can see 

the privacy panel on the left with an M on it. That protects 

customers sitting in the priority seating from getting beat up 

by book bags and people rushing to get out of the car. It 

makes them go around the priority seating people aren't 

going to hit them as they go through.

We thought you might be interested in a destination sign. 

This is one. As the train stops at a station it will light up that 

particular destination. And anybody looking up can see well 

this is where I am at this is where I need to go how many 

stops do you have that kind of thing. So there are a couple 

on other side there are two overhead displays.

Here is another close up of the priority seating area. 

Again, I think one of the reasons why I included this every 

meeting I went to I heard we need a privacy panel. We need 

to get out of traffic. It's great you provided us a seat protect 

us from the people going in and out. So, there is another 

representation of that.

And that is the end of the presentation. What I did want 

to do is take the time to share with you that we have invested 

a lot of time and effort in making improvements to the cars, 
most of them were small. Most of them are not in the regs 

customer said if you want me to ride Metrorail you could do 

these small things to make it easier we will be more likely to 

do that. I am here to answer any questions if you have them.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Perfect. Crystal and Terry.

>> Crystal: I don't really have a question, I just want to 

say that I admire all of the work and all of the thought that 

went into that. And especially when you say several things 

weren't in the regs that you decided to do, it's real customer 

service. I mean that's a lot of -- it takes a lot of time to 

listen to people and to really hear what the -- maybe they 

didn't say they wanted privacy panel maybe they didn't want 

to get hit with a backpack what is the solution. I can tell you 

put a lot of thought into it. It looks like you went and found 

answers. So I applaud you all for all of that work. If there is 

any other system in the country that has done something like 

that it would be great to hear another system story if 

someone has some new -- put that much work into it like real 

recent I think would be useful for this group as well.

>> If I can, thank you for that. I am sure other transit 

authorities are doing the same thing I am not so much 

bragging on Metro. I think one of the points that I am trying 

to make is all of the things that we found that customers with 

disabilities were telling us could help them could help 
everybody it gets back to universal design. The best example 

the folks using wheelchairs that told us it's hard to get in the 

car. We don't care if it's ADA compliant gap, gaps are bad. 

We found by doing something to the extent it's possible to fix 

that gap, we also increased safety for everybody. People 

stopping stepping in the hole. You know, it's -- I think if you 

listen to customers, they will tell you what you need to do. 

This was a customer-focused process. We don't buy rail cars 

they -- often they last 40 years. We were trying our best to 

get it right.

>> Terry Pacheco: A couple of different questions on 

the -- on your signage particularly for audibility. The signs 

that you are putting -- the additional signs I have to take this 

off the additional signs that you are putting in the cars are 

those going to be -- to have any kind of audible --

>> The signs themselves are visual by the car has both 

visual and auditory components. And you know, we had the 

six signs in the car for people who can't hear. We have them 

everywhere you can see them no matter where they are at. 

The sound system we have upgraded from analog to digital. 

So that you will actually hear good, clean messages. You will 

be able to hear it. And those -- those announcements will 

provide the same information that you are getting on the rail 

cars through the signs. So, for example, if you are at a 
station it will tell you L'Enfant next station archives doors 

opening on the left it will give you the directions that you 

need to use the system if you are relying on your ears.

>> Terry Pacheco: You are getting some of that 

information, that's true. The sign that someone is looking at 

is always giving them more information.

>> That's true, but the auditory announcement doesn't 

give you all of the stations all the way to the end of the line it 

will tell you yellow line station next station which door is 

opening.

>> Terry Pacheco: What about the outside signage like 

it is now with little green light next to Greenbelt. You are 

saying we are going to continue to have the signs in different 

colors which I think is wonderful, I pushed Barbara and Pat on 

that. But my question is: When are people going to know 

standing on the platform that the next train coming in is a 

green as opposed to a yellow line audibly.

>> That's a great question. If you stand there you can 

see the sign what color. As the train pulls in there is external 

speakers it will announce to the platform, you know, blue line 

to -- you know, to Rosland and you will know that that is the 

train you want or don't want for you to get in. We are trying 

to provide the information audibly and visually at the same 

time.
>> Terry Pacheco: Are you going -- my last question. 

Are you going to be doing anything about making the -- the 

signs in the stations you know the ones that say, Silver Spring 

six cars in four minutes. I know there was some talk on the 

advisory committee a few years ago about making those, 

creating a way for people to access that information audibly 

have you done any progress on that.

>> I would like to be able to tell you detail. I will tell 

you this, we have engineers working on them. Where they 

are exactly on that I don't know. I can't tell you.

>> Terry Pacheco: Thank you.

>> We heard the community on that. We are rebuilding 

Metro. It was put together almost 40 years ago. 40 years 

ago is a technology from the last century. We are making 

some improvements across the board they are looking at that 

I do know that.

>> Terry Pacheco: Thank you.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Michael. And who did I have?

>> Mike Wetherell: Just to address that last question, 

we are putting in the digital signs to tell you when the next 

train comes in we have it on half of the system. And there 

is -- there is an audio that goes with that. But it doesn't tell 

you what happens you get a scroll of the different trains sort 

of like what you guys get. But when a train is approaching 
the station, the next train up is -- it gets announced it says 

that the next train to 180th street arrives in four minutes it's a 

count down. They count down the next train. It tells you 

when it's approaching. That is something that's achievable. 

It's a difficult thing to do as we are finding, you no he, if you 

have the infrastructure to do that, on an older system we had 

on half of the system it's something that can be done. But we 

are looking for innovative ways to get the rest of the system 

up that's something that can be achieved.

>> I know the MBJ in Boston has done an awful lot with 

that that's a really old system. They have managed to do it.

>> Mike Wetherell: So if you ride the RIT in New York 

you have countdown clocks what the next trains are and also 

tells you how long --

>> Jim Weisman: What did you think of the privacy 

panels?

>> Mike Wetherell: We do use privacy panels on our 

commuter trains but not on the rapid -- on the subways. We 

use the bars.

>> Jim Weisman: That seat by the door is -- you like to 

get it --

>> Mike Wetherell: Actually, what we are going to do on 

the next fleet we will make the space larger what you will 

have--one of the things that we found that you have a lot of 
people that congregate in front of the door the reason there is 

we have 5 and a half million people that ride the subway every 

day. Each one of them has to go from one place to the next. 

So, what they will do board at a certain location say okay I 

don't have to move from here I know when I get to my station 

the stairwell is right there. So, what we are going to do is put 

a niche next to the door so they can do that but they are not 

keeping other people from going in and out. It's something 

that yeah, we are looking at passenger flow and those things. 

But, yes, putting the -- putting the plexiglass doesn't really 

work very well on the subway. New York City subway it's a 

harsh environment. It's things that work in one place you 

know like on the commuter train don't work in the city. 

Because you just do -- you have 5 and a half million people a 

lot of them are kids. And you know, we deal with -- we deal 

with making -- when we accept a car, we can't accept a gap 

where somebody could stick paper inside of it we are so 

subject to vandalism and subject to things that maybe 

somebody else isn't. But we are doing everything that we 

can, obviously, to help passenger flow and to help people's 

ability to get on and off the train. It helps everybody. It 

helps the person getting on the train it helps us also be able 

to move from station to station and to it efficiently so --

>> BILLY ALTOM: Awesome. Dennis?
>> Dennis Cannon: There is transportation research 

board underway to develop a guide book on mining the gap 

essentially, ways to get rid of the gap. Since the gap came up 

here I want to maybe give a little background of what the 

current regulation talks about 3 inches because when we were 

riding the -- when we were writing the reg that's what it 

looked like was possible. We got from engineers a bunch of 

data about you know plus or minus variations and so forth. 

And it looked like if you took all of the things that added up 

plus 3 inches was the minimum. You could actually get 

close. We know that's not true anymore and several years 

ago Marta, in Atlanta, the engineers developed a door sill 

attachment that screws on the outside, they retrofitted that to 

the current cars, and it reduced the gap to slightly less than 2 

inches.

Because you only care about the gap at the doors you 

don't care about the cars themselves being close. And they 

now Marta now puts it in its specification WMATA added the 

excluded rubber which reduces the gap significantly. So the 

3 inches is really not the gold standard anymore it looks like 2 

inches is a closer fit and, again, if you write the regulation the 

way that I think it should be written like the -- what's in 

currently proposed for bus rapid transit. Instead of having a 

lot of, you know, different solutions for different situations, it 
says if the gap is greater than 2 inches you have to do 

something else. Or in greater than 5/8 inches vertically. 

Instead of trying to -- people trying to figure out which gap 

applies to which station, and most of the engineers that I talk

to on the phone when this regulation came out were very 

upset about the 3-inch max because they thought it was a 

requirement. And they said it couldn't be done in commuter 

rail and inter-city rail. So, I think it's easier to write the 

standard in such a way that says, if it's bigger than X, you 

have to do something, and we know that in rapid rail these 

days two inches is doable.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Chris, do you have a comment?

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Just wanted to offer, if folks are 

interested in understanding the current (inaudible) 

accessibility stats for commuter rail or for light rail, I can walk 

you through and pull in Gary. Gary and I wrote them, and I 

am happy to kind of walk folks through it. It doesn't 

necessarily mean what we end up procuring in the next five 

years is going to have everything in that accessibility spec but 

it sets up as go if not stronger than what WMATA has done for 

their (inaudible). I can't wait to get on the 7000. I also can't 

wait until we have lights on the platform so we can see what is 

going on at the platform.

 (LAUGHTER)
>> CHRISTOPHER HART: But I put that out to folks 

because we spent over two years developing these 

certification for accessibility. And get right down to 

handholds and stanchions and where--where are the visual 

messaging. And, really, ultimately what are you putting up 

on your audio and visual messaging. Because it's really key 

to actually not pollute your automatic messaging with 

nonessential messages. And the last point Terry raised the 

countdown in stations. At least in Boston, we have now 

rewired the subway the orange line to help if the train is 5 

minutes away it says the train is 5 minutes away. And then 

about a minute away it announces it again. And then about 

20 seconds out it says you know, forest hills train arriving. 

So, that gives everyone a warning that on the visual screen as 

well.

>> Mike Wetherell: If I could add something on the 

automated announcements how are you updating that. Do 

you do a download to do it or do -- how do they make the 

changes to it can you --

>> If you would like the technical details we can connect 

you with our rail engineers.

>> Mike Wetherell: Okay. The only reason why I say it 

you may find that we found is that okay so you have the 

automated announcements system it's working real fine 
everybody loves the system. But then you get a sponsor of 

some station and they want to have their name put in it and 

so now you got to change the system. And what we found 

was it was taking us 3 months to do a fleet of 1600 cars just 

one fleet to change. So then within that three months 

inevitably something else comes up we need to make the 

change. So we had to go to and we are in periodic. What we 

do store up changes and then we do periodic automated 

announcement system upgrades I was curious what you were 

experiencing so far. It becomes something that becomes a 

full-time job for people to just keep those automated 

announcements up. That's one of the things we are 

approaching is we have a new fleet we are getting we are 

going to put a wireless system in so that you could do this 

wirelessly. So we could take three months of work cut it 

down to probably two days.

>> I understand we are going wireless forwarned is 

forearmed I will pass your name on to a fellow named Joe 

Reynolds who owns our fleet, he is the chief engineer.

>> Great.

>> Ed Hoff: One of the challenges we face in Jersey 

Transit is maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago the overhead signs on 

the platforms this is relatable to the vehicles we will embark 

upon this soon. 12-inch square CRT's cathode ray tubes 
television that hung above the platform or perhaps they might 

have been split perhaps really small you had to put a lot of 

abbreviations ary where maybe had 10 characters per line 

three lines you talked about the next train coming. Came 

along our high tech stuff LCDs, LEDs plasma screens we could 

put more information on there. Lo and behold we do. And 

then but you also have to follow regulations requiring you 

know the font size requirements when you go over a certain 

height requirement. So, when I approached the people who 

want to put all of the information on there you can't put all of 

that information on there and maybe it a half inch high, put it 

10 feet off the ground put less information. No, no, this is 

essential information. Well, it only became essential in the 

last 5, 10 years, before that they had three lines maybe 5 

characters up there when can it essential to put the next 12 

trains coming through the station on that platform and what's 

going to be there. That's one of the challenges is 

that -- there are within organizations like New Jersey transit 

and others there is the want to provide as much information 

as possible. And the thought this is essential information. 

So as we do this whether this our facilities on the vehicles as 

Chris mentioned we need to examine that exactly. I don't 

know if we do it by regulation we need to educate the service 

providers and everybody involved in the issue to know that it's 
important to provide the, if not the exact information that you 

are providing audibly visually and audibly something very 

close to that. And so -- it's not insurmountable there is a 

way to do it we have to pay attention to that as well. Thank 

you.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Over there.

>> Uwe Rutenberg: You saw on some of the pictures 

the place -- sorry. You showed on some of your pictures 

the -- sorry. The place for a wheelchair. Designated with 

where the wheelchair sign. Then you showed an area where 

you have priority seating and it also has a wheelchair sign. 

Is -- I go backwards for a second. In the transit bus industry 

we have the wheelchair position with flip seats and it's the 

same area for priority seating and the wheelchair. The 

problem is this can come to conflict. You can have let's say 

two elderly people sitting there and suddenly somebody in the 

wheelchair comes along who lass the priority in this place. 

My question here was: Do you have the same kind of policy 

here in the area where you show priority seating is this also 

the area for the wheelchair and if not what kind of experience 

have you had in this area.

>> Well, a Metro bus we operate under the theory more 

is better we have six priority seats they are in the front of the 

bus. A couple face forward we have side ways seats. And 
the priority seats do flip up on the side to accommodate 

wheelchairs we have a real advantage of being able to have 

that configuration and we have an operator right there who 

can ask people to move out of the seats who can flip the seat 

up and proceed with assisting the customer with tie downs. 

We don't have that in a subway car. We are not -- we 

thought about it, we wouldn't put priority seats and ask 

somebody who uses a wheelchair or somebody else to flip 

that seat up. We thought the best thing to do was to provide 

priority seats mark them clearly as priority seats. And then 

have two areas near there on the other side of the door that 

are clearly delineated as wheelchair parking areas. And they 

do that different colored floor areas there is a sign on the 

wall. And you know we have tried to provide what we can, 

for example, we put our emergency intercom button if you 

need assistance you can hit it from there along with the 

handholds. We would not put priority seating there because 

we think it would be self defeating people would sit in it 

somebody would ask them to move and if you did ask them to 

move you have to flip up the seats.

>> They are competing with people standing rather than 

sitting.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Chris, did you have another comment? 

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: I am glad you brought that up. 
And I will share MBTA bought heavy rail cars Siemens cars, at 

that time we had not finished the vehicle access act, and we 

ended up with one wheelchair, and the supervisor goes to the 

airport you can guess what (inaudible). Okay? And then we 

have a flip up seat. Flip up, it was a bench seat, and of 

course you get on it at any given moment that seat is always 

down. And that is why folks like (inaudible) have ordered 

seats in rapid transit it does not work well. And when you 

have got a service at the airport or train station where you 

know you have got luggage.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Any other questions or comments my 

colleagues on the phone do you have one in the back come to 

the mic, please.

>> Yes, thank you. On the subject of flip up seats that's 

another issue on the light rail in the subpart D side there is a 

lot of light rail systems use the flip up seats they are sprung 

so they are always in the up position until somebody pushes 

them down and sits on them. We have had varying 

interpretations from FTA from the civil rights office as to 

whether or not those are ADA compliant or not. I think that's 

another clarification that may be needed to subpart D.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Any other questions or comments?

>> Question.

>> When you said you added 2 inches to the aisle width 
from 32 to 34 inches did you reduce the seat width or did it 

come from the side walls?

>> That came from improvements in seat design from 

1970 we had big bulky frames they took up and inch on either 

side of the aisle when we reduced the frames and added 

padding we got more leg and aisle room. That was part of 

the plan. We wanted to provide as much place for people and 

reduce the space occupied by equipment and it paid up all 

around.

>> Okay. Thank you.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Frank?

>> Frank Maldari: Can you put that slide up?

>> I am not sure I know how to do that. Which sign do 

you have? 

>> Frank Maldari: Yes, this one. Frank Maldari MTA I 

was wondering where the idea for the symbol priority seating 

came from? It shows a person in a wheelchair that's really 

not the intent of that location so -- do you have another 

location that's for somebody who is in a wheelchair? As it 

says in the sign it's for the elderly as well. I am asking the 

question of the Access Board do you know where that symbol 

came from for priority seating.

>> Jim Weisman: It's provided from the bus with dual 

use.
>> Frank: It's --

>> It's the international symbol of accessibility it's used 

for accessibility guidance.

>> Frank: It was just a question it seems to be 

misleading I know our customers gets confused they are not 

sure if it's wheelchair or priority seating that sign is clear if 

you don't read the sign you don't notice there is a difference.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: So, depending on the U.S. 

system or if you go overseas, you get a combination of 

symbols. And it might be an elder with a cane or walker a 

woman that is always pregnant as well as the ISA symbol. It 

varies by system. And that same (inaudible) it's also on the 

poster just to reinforce their priority. 

>> Jim Pecht: Jim Pecht, Access Board. The current 

regulation doesn't require the use of the international symbol 

it just requires that you have a same designated priority 

seating that's all it says. If you want to get picky that is not 

the international symbol it's one of the things that they sort of 

designed and modified and morphed you notice he doesn't 

have any toes, his head is not connected. The international 

symbol is a very specific thing. And it's intended to be a 

symbol for all disabilities. It shows a person in a chair but it's 

intended to cover accessibility for everybody with a disability 

hearing site mobility, everything.
>> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you. Jim Weisman.

>> Jim Weisman: I don't want to beat the symbol to 

death. But the ambiguity of it, though, is frustrating to 

people with disabilities all the time. It's not illegal to use the 

accessible stall in the men's room if you are not disabled, it is 

illegal to park without a permit with the exact same symbol. 

Some disabled people think it's illegal for abled people to use 

the stall, some able-bodied people think -- some people 

think they can use the parking because they can use the stall. 

It's created a bit of a mess. New York City has done a 

variation on it for accessible taxis they thought it was brilliant, 

which shows a guy in a wheelchair hailing a cab, you know 

this symbol with the arm up.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Jim Weisman: So, soon someone will put a finger on 

the arm.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> That's an inaccessible cab.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> James Lucas. you are still on the subject if you go to 

the previous slide there is a picture above the seating area 

just like that with a different -- not the previous one go back 

again.

>> Go ahead.
>> Lucas: Or is it forward?

>> This slide (indicating).

>> James Lucas: There you go, you look carefully there, 

you have got an elderly person, a pregnant woman and 

someone holding a baby, it looks like it's solving the problem 

we are talking about. I wonder why that sign, in that picture 

there is a wheelchair symbol in another picture.

>> I can answer that, that's because I took slides from 

various parts of the development of the car and some of them 

are slightly different. There is a sign there -- I will check 

which sign we will have in the final version. I think it's closer 

to the other sign that has the ISA and the Federal law requires 

you to give up this seat. But one of the things that we did as 

we developed the car was to test signs on customers to see 

what they thought of them. And I think it goes to Jim's 

concern. Trying to get information to people in a way that 

they could understand. That is something that I am going to 

check on when we get back. We do have a test cars four cars 

in Washington we are looking at. They are not going to begin 

production of the cars until mid year this year. So it's 

something we still have time to tinker with I think. I will take 

the issue back to Metro.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Marilyn and Terry.

>> Marilyn Golden: I wanted to say Jim is right, there is 
all kinds of contradictions and funny and not so funny 

situations that have stemmed from -- the problem comes 

from the fact that we have come to learn that it only makes 

sense to use symbols that are internationally known and that 

have international status by being present and part of an 

international code document or similarly statured document 

that has international agreement. Because -- because 

otherwise we have people making up symbols for things, and 

you really could have confusion. So, for example, the ANSI 

committee there was testimony by a gentleman who 

represents industry he had nothing to do with in the disability 

committee he said my dad would be confused by the different 

designs does it mean something different than accessible? 

You know, so there is reasons for uniformity but then there 

are problems with uniformity. We haven't found a way to 

deal with that contradiction. Having said that, other than 

where the ADAAG or neighbor the ANSI standards which 

becomes a standard for state codes require the international 

symbol of access which are only in a few places you are free 

to use anything else elsewhere. In a sense you can have 

whatever fun you want like by designing a new one. No one 

is going to -- you know, nothing can happen to you because 

you are not violating anything. But this is why -- you know, 

this is why the thing is used. And everyone -- you know 
everyone in the disability community, which has as a high 

priority the issue of cross disability and issue of representing 

each disability equally. This flies against them -- we are like 

gosh that's painful. But we haven't come up with a better way 

to address this problem of international agreement 

among -- on symbols.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Terry.

>> Terry Pacheco: I just wanted to say I have run into a 

couple of places I want to say that I think Boston is one of 

them but you could back me up maybe on this Chris. I think 

what is really important to do with -- with symbols is to, first 

of all, use logic. And one of the things that I have noticed in 

on some trains and public vehicles is where there is a place to 

put a wheelchair you use that symbol. Where you have got 

the two seats there for the thing for the non-wheelchair users 

you use the symbol--there is another one I have seen it used 

a lot that have two people back to back like if you had seats 

that were back to back one has a guide dog one has I think 

orthopedic cane. It's in silhouette so the hair is white you 

have covered elderly and the blind you have covered the 

people that use an orthopedic cane and wheelchairs all in two 

symbols. It's just something -- you know, that's the point. 

Instead of legislating everything sometimes you just need to 

use logic. And that might be helpful for anyone that ever 
wants to look at some symbols.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you Terry. And we will let 

Dennis wrap us up on this.

>> Dennis Cannon: Just it may be confusing to have it 

both place but people should understand the ISA does not 

mean wheelchair. It means the facility or whatever meets 

certain accessibility requirements. And it does indeed cover 

all disabilities, but the fact that they wanted to make it 

recognizable, easy for people to understand is why it looks 

like a wheelchair. Remember, the no smoking sign is a red

circle with a line over a cigarette. Does that mean that pipe 

smoking and cigar smoking are okay? No. That sign is 

accepted to mean no smoking period, including if you are in 

Colorado.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Dennis Cannon: But the ISA doesn't mean 

wheelchair, people see it on elevators and they think that 

means it's an elevator for wheelchair users. The answer is 

no. It means it's an accessible means of vertical access. So, 

I do think there is some problem with using it in the two 

places. But that's basically because people don't really 

understand what the ISA stands for.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you, Dennis. Just make sure I 

haven't omitted our friends on the phone any comments or 
questions?

>> On the teleconference Ed Steinfield and Linda Martin 

try hitting star 6 please. Thank you.

>> Hi, this is Linda. Can you hear me? 

>> I can hear you, Linda.

>> Okay. Great. I just had one comment about the 

signage. What is currently in the regulation with regard to 

rail cars on the international symbol talks about it should be 

placed on the exterior of the rail car that is accessible. There 

is nothing else about the interior as to which symbol should 

be used, but I just wanted to second what Dennis just said in 

the sense that, granted, it looks like a person in a wheelchair, 

it is the accepted symbol if you start using other symbols, 

you -- you know, you run the risk of people noting what it 

means. So, it's just -- I know that -- I know the tendency is 

to believe there is a priority for where folks sit, but the reality 

there is no hierarchy of people with disabilities, you know, a 

person in a wheelchair or more severe disability being treated 

anymore fairly than someone with a lesser disability. So, or 

given more services or whatever. There is no priority in the 

law about that. So, someone in a wheelchair could just as 

easily transfer to the seats that are marked with the 

wheelchair above them and, you know, steal their wheelchair 

in a subway car as they could in an inner-city rail car they 
would have to transfer quickly to get off at the stop but 

theoretically they could do that. That's all I had. Thank you.

>> BILLY ALTOM: You are welcome, thank you Linda. 

Thank you very much for the presentation. Yay.

 (APPLAUSE)

>> BILLY ALTOM: I thank you all for your presentations 

today, very informative. Up next I love delegating stuff. We 

have our list from Attachment B of all of the issues we have 

been talking about we need to figure out how to address 

those I will turn it over to Paul. And allow him to run this for 

a moment.

>> PAUL BEATTY: Thank you. Essentially, if you read 

the preparation's E-mail I sent out to you on the 7th staff here 

at the Access Board discussed how to move forward. We 

thought one way that we are presenting to you an idea you 

guys decide what you want to do. You could modify our idea 

come up with new idea, you run the show in this area we 

wanted to present it, we were suggesting we are suggesting 

that you break into three subcommittees the number three 

comes up, I have three rooms to use three staff members to 

cover you, four, sorry, we can't support that. The value of 

some committees obviously meeting here it's face to face, our 

goal is for you to function outside of this meeting via 

conference call, et cetera. Do a lot of work from wherever 
you are over the phone line so when you meet in April there is 

some progress made. Now, if you look at item 8, we broke 

the subcommittees into three titles, in the parentheses after 

the titles we basically gave you the main headings out of 

Attachment B, the issues list. So, for example, 

communications would include lighting, and service animal 

relief area issues circulation includes boarding and lighting. 

Onboard circulation, wheelchair spaces and other seating. 

Special spaces would be restrooms, sleeping compartments 

and dining. We realize if he look at the issues list there is 

overlap, but there is enough of the topics that fall in the 

categories, if the committee agree to go to subcommittee. 

The subcommittees could establish priorities and decide how 

do they interact with other subcommittee where there is 

overlap. Maybe work with subcommittees for the next 

number of meetings we make progress and have to 

restructure based upon what the issues are remaining or what 

areas overlap. Now, to move us in the area we thought it 

would be wise to give you a thought process in terms of what 

we want from you. If you could do this as a full committee or 

other method but in issue number 7, we spelled out what you 

need to provide us. Remember, Marsha gave you a 

presentation at the November meeting, we asked you 

essentially to look at the guidelines, are there provisions this 
there that need to be changed. Are there gaps that need to 

be filled in. The guidelines that currently exist set out 

minimum requires they are not optimum, they don't 

necessarily guarantee good design, they are minimum 

requirements. So as a starting point we ask you in the 

recommendations you are providing us the minimum 

requirements, okay? We encourage examples because we did 

ask don't worry about code language, tell us what you want. 

For example, if you want a U-shaped grab bar, fine, a 

U-shaped grab bar in the toilet room give us a picture like 

this example here. That's great. All right?

We are not going to try to make it too good for you. 

Give us your recommendation what the minimum 

requirement. You have to point out what the mode you are 

dealing with, is it light rail? A lot of discussion was focused 

on inter-city rail and commuter. Some discussion on the 

other modes. You need to spell out is this recommendation 

good for all three or four? All five? Actually basically have 

four and then we reference high speed rail the inter-city you 

know how it works. So, give us an idea of what vehicle types 

you are pointing out. That is two issues -- issues rationale 

benefit for persons with disability but it could be benefit for 

providers. Somebody raised an issue about the problem 

between a bus and a light rail using the same platform. 
Okay. Well, there a change may be necessary that benefits 

the provider of the transportation. So, maybe rationale and 

benefit are combined together. But at this point we are 

saying what is the benefit and then later you will see on the 

list what is the cost. Aromie at the November meeting 

pointed out we have to do a regulatory assessment at the 

Access Board which is certainly a cost benefit analysis. You 

can look at the current passenger vessel rule and proposed 

bus rule to give you examples of the regulatory assessment 

we did. There are a lot of people with access to impact 

people with information. Okay. If we are proposing that we 

make doors wider the new requirement minimum is 33 inches 

clear width. This is the benefit we are spelling out and the 

rationale for that. Now, let's get down to what is the impact. 

The impact may be very minimal. If it's really, really minimal 

we don't need a number. If there is a cost the cost could be 

dollar or space cost could be revenue cost you may not be 

able to immediately get it to us, you think it's a good idea 

because you know the following organizations rail providers 

do it. Well, they do it here in Boston. They do it here in 

New York. Well that's information that we would find helpful. 

Now, we would like you to focus on who does it in the United 

States because obviously they are subject to federal laws but 

we are interested in who does it overseas if the Germans do it, 
throw that in too. Then lastly, this is where if you come up 

with an idea but you really can't get all of this cost 

information and no one is doing it here it's in a report. Put it 

in there. The reason is sometimes we can take the report 

and work our way back going into that research and find that 

information that we need for doing the assessment. So, we 

think if this is what you need to give us, in your final report to 

the Access Board when you are doing your subcommittees if 

that's the way you are doing or whatever methodology you are 

doing to revise things our recommendation is to start thinking 

what are going to be the minimum what are the benefits what 

are impacts you guys are deciding when you look at the 

information is this something we feel needs to be presented 

on. Do we need to develop some other options. I mean 

that's part of your thinking process. So, we can support 

three subcommittees. We have sort of given you an idea of 

what three topics would be. There is like I said overlap 

problems. We gave you a list of what we thought your first 

steps would be. It's not to resolve issues it's sort of set up 

your organizational structure who is going to collect what 

information on certain issues. I think an important part is to 

make sure everybody understanding the issues some are very 

clear like increased lift capacity to 800 pounds that's pretty 

clear. Some others there may need to be more discussion 
about what somebody meant when they raised it particularly 

since the Access Board staff might have boiled it down too 

much. We see the point if you go to subcommittees, now, 

remember a subcommittee does not make decisions for the 

full committee. The subcommittee may come to a conclusion 

they present the information to the full committee you may 

not have been a member. If you are disagreeing with our 

conclusion, you are part of the full committee. Ideally if you 

are involved in conference calls and so forth other people can 

join in who are not officially members of the subcommittee. 

If you remember from the protocol anybody in the audience is 

allowed to participate as if they are a full committee member. 

The only restriction the chair of the subcommittee has to be a 

committee member we recommend a vice-chair they should 

be a committee member in case the chair can't show up. 

That's a quick and dirty for the schedule we are running out of 

time I will turn it back to Billy.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Dennis, do you have a question? 

>> Dennis Cannon: I had a comment. I wanted to 

make sure with regard to the section on second one I think on 

pathways or something that the subcommittees look at 

scoping as well as technical provisions. For example, how 

many wheelchair spaces should there be. Right now --

>> PAUL BEATTY: That's one of the issues on the issue 
list.

>> Dennis Cannon: Right now the rule says at least one, 

not more than two, but no more than two. It came up in 

earlier discussions with the Representative Hoyer, some of the 

folks in the rail community wanted to create a single car that 

was accessible where they could put everybody which the 

disability community referred to as the cattle car approach. 

And so, that was very clearly struck down, something that the 

committee and the -- and eventually the legislation says is 

not to happen. On the other hand, every other kind of rail 

system has a requirement that's for inter-city. It has a 

requirement for two spaces rapid rail and so forth. And when 

my wife and I were travelling if we wanted to go on Amtrak, 

she used a power chair as well. We would have had to be in 

separate cars. So, I just want to raise that issue of how many 

spaces you actually have --

>> PAUL BEATTY: That's on the issues list.

>> Dennis Cannon: I want to make sure everybody 

discusses that.

>> PAUL BEATTY: Well we see you looking at all of the 

issues at least the subcommittee come to a conclusion on it 

you all come to the table with concerns. And people should 

have an opportunity to discuss their persons. -- their 

concerns. At least we would like to see it that way. So that's 
there. And remember you can add things to the issues list so 

Billy?

>> BILLY ALTOM: Do we have discussion from the 

audience, what would be the pleasure?

>> Dennis Cannon: And 5 restrooms in every car. 

>> PAUL BEATTY: You need me to add that?

 (LAUGHTER)

>> BILLY ALTOM: Yes, Jon.

>> Jon Holbrook: One issue to breaking up into 

committees that would be the most efficient from a 

manufacturer's standpoint, we are going to have interests in 

every area. And case in point I found some information on 

inductive loop I am not electrical guy, but I found it and I 

researched it a little bit and got interested in it but I am more 

interested in circulation and dimensional. So how can a 

person be involved in a couple directions?

>> PAUL BEATTY: One answer to that is we are hoping 

that most of the discussions will first occur on the conference 

call second if you are really not involved remember the 

subcommittees have to presented their recommendations to 

the full committee. And some places we see a complete 

repeat of what was -- if somebody developed a presentation 

for the subcommittee on a particular idea and that was sold to 

the subcommittee to make a certain recommendation they 
may find it necessary to repeat the presentation to the full 

committee. We see subcommittees make a report he we 

looked at the following issues this dropped out. Oh, this is 

my issue that dropped out. Well, then we will have to have 

feedback about why it dropped out and whether we need to 

set it aside for it to be discussed at the full committee level. I

mean in some ways we are not exactly sure how this 

completely plays out we see some learning curves we see 

interaction between subcommittees and we see reformatting 

subcommittees down the road to deal with things that fall into 

two different camps jurisdiction particularly communication 

issues where you have some of the communication issues are 

in the sections like sleeping compartments it might be good 

to talk about that with the communications committee as well 

as the special space committee, special space committee.

>> Dennis Cannon: The subcommittees are open to 

other people. If you have somebody in your organization 

who is good on a different subject than you, have them join 

the other subcommittee and you can get your organizations 

views heard without having to run back and forth from one 

committee to another.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Yes.

>> PAUL BEATTY: Melissa.

>> Well, a lot -- as Paul, said a lot of work will probably 
be done by conference call. And the conference calls should 

be open to everybody who is on the committee and 

subcommittee and so that way you can participate. We could 

make the effort to not schedule them at the same time.

>> Jon Holbrook: If everybody had a listing of when 

they would take place maybe -- maybe I would only want to 

put my two cents and communication on a couple of things if 

that happened in one or two conference calls I wouldn't have 

to carry on to the bitter end.

>> PAUL BEATTY: One of the things that we 

recommended Paul speaking again in terms of not priority 

order issue number 8 item number 8 in my preparations 

E-mail we spelled out essentially 6 things that we wanted you 

to do maybe you can think of other things too. One was to 

arrange conference calls and then come back to the full 

committee make the reports so the circulation is going to 

have a conference call on this date. And communication is 

going to have it on this indicate. Recognizing that you may 

not be a date good for you at this point it's the best we can 

do.

>> Jon Holbrook: Yeah, and there is no reason why if 

you miss one you can't E-mail the players and --

>> PAUL BEATTY: Our goal as staff is to make sure that 

you feel comfortable to agree that your issue was addressed 
or at least considered okay? And that you had say on an 

issue. If you see a subcommittee develop something that 

was of concern for you, you had no chance for input. Again it 

has to be presented to the full committee. We are not going 

to say, nope you have to bless that subcommittee report. No 

it comes to the full committee and you better make sure the 

rationale that comes with the subcommittee report is good 

rationale that may answer your question or address your 

concerns. Or hey you didn't think about X, Y and Z after I 

read your report. Work with us on that I am not sure how it 

will completely fall out.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Actually, I am thinking in the essence 

of time it's right at the 5 o'clock hour we have public 

comment period we have to hit we should do that because I 

think there may be transportation issues for folks that may 

have to get home I don't want to run pastime we will hit the 

subcommittee suggestion again first thing in the morning is 

that agreeable with folks? So, having said that open it up for 

the public comment period. Bob, you have hand up. First 

please say your name.

>> Bob Reuter Access Systems and a few other people. 

As Dennis Cannon said, he and I were on the original 

committee that wrote the regulations there are a lot of 

artifacts the 30 by 54-inch lift was the flexible -- it's the 
biggest lift you could fit in the bus, that's the only reason for 

the size there is no reason for it we wanted to have a bigger 

lift back then. The PRIIA designs I have seen some of the 

earlier question may be secretly released to me California cars 

and they are sticking in the cabbage cars especially baggage 

cars they are sticking the bicycle racks in there, the lower level 

is going to be restroom, wheelchairs, bicycle racks. And 

that's it. And I think, okay. That's not exactly the concept 

and certainly it goes back to the disabled ghetto we had in the 

cattle cars back in the 20-some-odd years ago. I think that's 

something to be considered.

I saw something unique in Japan, maybe we should 

consider it here, floor operated flushes. It was a dome in the 

floor stuck up a half inch or so, only 2 inches in diameter, you 

roll on it, step on it, whatever, it flushed the toilet just enough 

out of the way so you didn't accidentally hit it. It was a great 

concept, you didn't have to have any special knowledge to be 

able to flush that darn thing. As far as the second levels I 

have ridden all over the country. You haven't lived until you 

spent two and a half days crossing the country actually three 

and a half days in the dungeon in the basement behind the 

toil let which is what I call the accessible sleeping 

compartment on the superliners you have a port hole to look 

at. He threatened to throw me off on Harpers Ferry I drug 
myself down to the sightseer lounge and crawled up to the 

seats the difference was unbelievable. I have ridden that God 

knows how many times it was like I said I stuffed my chair 

back into one of the luggage space at the bottom of the step, 

drug myself up the steps and down the hall over the gap and 

into one of the seats in the sightseer lounge. Took 20 

minutes everyone went insane. It was a significant, major 

difference in the ride. So, I think it's important to look at 

going up there. And getting up there, there has got to be a 

way. I was on the coming up there they had wine tasting, it's 

in the next car, I never got to the free wine and cheese and 

stuff I was a little upset there I am never getting a hot 

coffee -- hot coffee is out of the question. Just a tiny little 

bit of trivia. In the country's where they drive on the left side 

of the road, the universal symbol of access is reversed it faces 

left instead of right it's funny the first time I saw it. And back 

to this, this is a question that's come up. Fixed guide way 

things like people movers in airports rubber tired fixed guide 

way the FTA seemed to decide bus rapid transit is fixed guide 

way. For funding and things. I have yet to figure out why 

they decided fixed guide way is that within our purview?

>> (inaudible)

>> I know it's on the original bus rule now the FTA says 

it's fixed guide way how does it fall in here? Thank you.
>> Thank you, Bob.

>> Any other comments? I don't see anybody. Are we 

free to adjourn?

>> BILLY ALTOM: Any last comments from anyone 

who -- on the phone Linda you are still with us?

>> Dennis Cannon: We decided committee tomorrow

>> Linda Martin: Still here, just muted. Nothing.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you, Linda, appreciate that. We 

will reconvene tomorrow at 9 o'clock and hit the -- this 

suggestion on how we want to structure subcommittees, if we 

want them or one big huge subcommittee. But we will figure 

it all out. But everyone have a great evening. And I will see 

you all back here tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. This portion 

of our meeting is adjourned.

(End of meeting.)