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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

 + + + + + 

 ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS FOR 

 WALK-IN COOLERS AND FREEZERS 

 + + + + + 

 PUBLIC MEETING 

 + + + + + 

 WEDNESDAY 

 OCTOBER 9, 2013 

 + + + + + 

 The Public Meeting met in Room 8E089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., 

Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m, Doug Brookman, 

Meeting Facilitator, presiding. 

PRESENT 

DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public 

 Solutions, Inc. 

ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy 

JOSHUA COCCIARDI, Department of Energy 

JOHN CYMBALSKY, Department of Energy 

MICHAEL KIDO, Department of Energy 

CHARLES LLENZA, Department of Energy 

DOUG RAWALD, Department of Energy 

ALSO PRESENT 

BRUCE ALKIRE, Honeywell 

CHRISTOPHER BOLDUC, Lawrence Berkeley 

 National Laboratory 

KATIE COUGHLIN, Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 

ELLIS CRAIG, Craig Industries 

LUKE CRAIG, Craig Industries 

LAURA DEGITZ, Navigant Consulting 

KRISTIN GLADD, Ayres Law Group, representing 
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 Honeywell 

DAVID GRIFE, Arctic Industries 

ANDREW HAALA, Hussmann 

ARMIN HAUER, ebm-papst, inc. 

JOHN HURST, Lennox International 

RICK JONES, Imperial-Brown 

JIM KINSER, Louisville Cooler Manufacturing 

 Company 

CHRISTOPHER LAU, Navigant Consulting 

REBECCA LEGETT, Navigant Consulting 

JON LEMMOND, Air-Conditioning, Heating, & 

 Refrigeration Institute 

HARMON LEWIS, American Panel 

PAUL LIN, Regal-Beloit Corporation 

ARIS MARANTAN, Navigant Consulting 

JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness 

 Project 

ANNIE MCCARTHY, SmithBucklin Corporation 

CHARLIE MCCRUDDEN, Air Conditioning 

 Contractors of America 

JON MCHUGH, McHugh Energy Consultants 

JOHNATHAN MELCHI, Heating, Air-conditioning & 

 Refrigeration Distributors International 

FRED MINELLI, Hillphoenix Walk-Ins 

DEAN PETERSON, Heat Transfer Products Group 

MICHAEL RIVEST, Navigant Consulting 

GREG ROSENQUIST, Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 

HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an Energy 

 Efficient Environment 

WAYNE SCHAEFFER, Hussmann Corporation 

GUY SENTER, Bally Refrigerated Boxes, Inc. 

ROB SHEBIK, Hussman Corporation 

WARREN STEIN, Intertek 

CHARLIE STEPHENS, Northwest Energy Efficiency 

 Alliance 

MIKE STRAUB, Heatcraft Refrigeration 

 Products, LLC 

RICHARD WEEKLEY, Heat Transfer Products Group 

ROBERT WILKINS, The Danfoss Group 
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 TABLE OF CONTENTS 

Welcome and Introductions, Opening 

 Remarks, Doug Brookman 4 

Overview, Scope, Test Procedure, 

 Charles Llenza 36 

Market and Technology Assessment and 

 Screening Analysis, Laura Degitz 90 

Engineering Analysis, Rebecca Legett 117 

Markups Analysis; Energy Use Analysis, 175 

 Katie Coughlin 

Life-Cycle Costs and Payback Period 225 

 Analysis, Katie Coughlin 

Shipments Analysis and National Impact 285 

 Analysis, Katie Coughlin 

Manufacturer Impact Analysis, 324 

 Christopher Lau 

NOPR Analyses, Katie Coughlin 344 

Proposed Standard, Rebecca Legett 356 

Closing Remarks, Charles Llenza 394 

Adjourn 
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:04 A.M. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Good morning, 

4 everyone and welcome. This is the U.S. 

5 Department of Energy's public meeting on 

6 Energy Conservation Standards for Walk-In 

7 Coolers and Freezers. 

8 Today, is Wednesday, October 9, 

9 2013, here in the Forrestal Building in 

10 Washington, D.C. I'm so glad you could join 

11 us this morning. We're going to start off 

12 this morning with welcoming remarks from John 

13 Cymbalsky. 

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you, Doug. 

15 This is John Cymbalsky from DOE. I just want 

16 to read this brief statement from the 

17 Department just in case these questions come 

18 up. 

19 Due to the nature of DOE 

20 appropriations, the Department will be able 

21 to operate for a short period of time after 

22 the September 30th end of fiscal year. 
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1 However, if the resolution is not achieved in 

2 the near term, the Department will be forced 

3 to take further action to shut down non4 accepted operations resulting in employee and 

5 contractor furloughs. We haven't got there 

6 yet. For more information, please contact 

7 DOE Public Affairs and I can give anyone the 

8 phone number who would like to do that. 

9 And so with that I'd like to welcome 

10 everybody to probably our last public meeting 

11 for a little while until things get sorted 

12 out and thanks again for coming and bearing 

13 with us through this uncertain time. Thank 

14 you. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

16 We always start with introductions. I'm 

17 going to start to my immediate left. You can 

18 get used to turning these microphones both on 

19 and off. Please say your name and 

20 organizational affiliation. 

21 MR. CRAIG: I'm Ellis Craig, 

22 President of Craig Industries and U.S. 
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1 Cooler. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

3 MR. CRAIG: Luke Craig, Vice 

4 President of Marketing and Sales, U.S. 

5 Cooler. 

6 MR. KINSER: Jim Kinser, President 

7 and owner of Louisville Cooler Manufacturing 

8 Company. 

9 MR. JONES: Rick Jones, Technical 

10 Services Manager for Imperial-Brown Walk-In 

11 Coolers. 

12 MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis, Executive 

13 Vice President of American Panel. 

14 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli, Director 

15 of Engineering, Hillphoenix Walk-Ins. 

16 MR. SCHAEFFER: Buzz Schaeffer, 

17 Principal Engineer, Hussman Corporation. 

18 MR. LEMMOND: John Lemmond, 

19 Regulatory Engineer, AHRI. 

20 MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub, Director 

21 of Systems Engineering, Heatcraft 

22 Refrigeration. 
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1 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, 

2 Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. 

3 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, American 

4 Council for an Energy Efficient Economy. 

5 MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins, 

6 Danfoss. 

7 MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi with HARDI. 

8 MR. PETERSON: Dean Peterson, Heat 

9 Transfer Products Group. 

10 MR. GRIFE: David Grife, Arctic 

11 Industries. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That didn't 

13 turn on, but it will. 

14 MR. KIDO: Michael Kido, Office of 

15 the General Counsel, DOE. 

16 MR. RAWALD: Doug Rawald, Office of 

17 the General Counsel, Department of Energy. 

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, 

19 Appliance Standards Program at DOE. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Can we move 

21 over here to the side? Katie, please stand 

22 and introduce yourself. 
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin, 

2 Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory. 

3 MR. BOLDUC: Chris Bolduc, Lawrence 

4 Berkeley National Lab. 

5 MS. DEGITZ: Laura Degitz, Navigant 

6 Consulting. 

7 MS. LEGETT: Rebecca Legett, 

8 Navigant Consulting. 

9 MR. LAU: Chris Lau, Navigant 

10 Consulting. 

11 MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza, 

12 Department of Energy. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: As a matter 

14 of courtesy, everyone introduces him or 

15 herself. 

16 MR. HURST: John Hurst, Lennox 

17 International. 

18 MR. McHUGH: Jon McHugh, McHugh 

19 Energy. 

20 MR. HAALA: Andrew Haala, Hussman 

21 Corporation. 

22 MS. MAUER: Joanna Maurer, Appliance 
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1 Standards Awareness Project. 

2 MR. WEEKLEY: Rich Weekley, HTPG. 

3 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, 

4 Air Conditioning Contractors of America 

5 MR. LIN: Paul Lin, Regal-Beloit 

6 Corporation. 

7 MR. COCCIARDI: Josh Cocciardi, 

8 Compliance Energy Department. 

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, 

10 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. 

11 MR. MARANTAN: Aris Marantan, 

12 Navigant Consulting. 

13 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant 

14 Consulting. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, welcome 

16 to all of you and thanks for coming in the 

17 midst of the uncertainty here in Washington, 

18 D.C. I'm going to do a very brief agenda 

19 review. All of you received a packet of 

20 information as you came in. Immediately 

21 following this agenda review, there's an 

22 opportunity, for anyone that wishes to, to 
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1 make brief summary remarks here at the 

2 outset. Brief, summary remarks here at the 

3 outset about issues of concern to you. 

4 Immediately following that, we're 

5 going to hear about overview, scope, and test 

6 procedure and then following on directly, 

7 marketing and technology assessment and 

8 screening analysis and then engineering 

9 analysis. We'll take a break mid-morning, 

10 round about 10:30, 10:45 or so. Markups 

11 analysis, energy use analysis following the 

12 break and then continuing on, life-cycle 

13 costs and payback period analysis. Following 

14 that shipments analysis, national impact 

15 analysis. We'll take lunch round about noon 

16 or so and then returning from lunch 

17 manufacturer impact analysis, NOPR analyses. 

18 We'll break mid-afternoon as needed around 

19 about two and then following that, the 

20 proposed standard and closing remarks as we 

21 get there, 2:45, 3'ish this afternoon. 

22 At the end of the day, yet another 
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1 opportunity for you to cover any content that 

2 you don't think has been covered sufficiently 

3 so far. Okay? So you get two chances in 

4 addition to the content in this PowerPoint 

5 packet to cover what's important to you. 

6 Those of you that are joining us via 

7 the web, welcome. The Department of Energy 

8 is trying hard to make these meetings very 

9 accessible via the web. I would ask at this 

10 point, please mute your telephones. So far 

11 we're not receiving any feedback in the room. 

12 That's a good sign. And if you wish to 

13 participate, if you wish to speak during the 

14 course of the meeting, ask questions or offer 

15 our comment, raise your hand and our web 

16 master will insert you into the conversation 

17 or you can write a comment and she'll hand 

18 the comment to me. 

19 The purpose of this public meeting 

20 is to invite comment on proposed energy 

21 efficiency levels, present methodologies that 

22 characterize results, to discuss specific 
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1 issues related to each analysis and seek 

2 input from interested parties on 

3 methodologies, assumptions, data sources, and 

4 results from the analyses, to describe next 

5 steps of the rulemaking as well. Comments 

6 from participants are invited and to provide 

7 similar comments or statements and raise 

8 additional issues for discussion, the 

9 Department of Energy would like very much to 

10 have all of that in writing. And the NOPR 

11 comment period closes, as you see in your 

12 slide on page 5, November 12, 2013. 

13 As we go along in this PowerPoint 

14 presentation packet, you will note that the 

15 specific issues that the Department of Energy 

16 wishes you to comment on are called out in 

17 these issue boxes and you also note that 

18 second bullet, a list of issues that are in 

19 the NOPR notice are available at that web 

20 address there. 

21 Once again, the deadline for submitting 

22 comments is November 12, 2013. 
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1 Finally, on page 7 of your 

2 PowerPoint slides, these are the details 

3 about how you submit written comments to the 

4 Department. It's kind of important that you 

5 do this according to Hoyle. So all your 

6 comments land in the right spot. So please 

7 observe the content that's here and you can 

8 do it via email. You can do it postal. You 

9 can do it courier. And you can see addressed 

10 to Brenda Edwards and the detailed 

11 information that's there. 

12 Finally, I would ask your 

13 consideration. Many of you are very familiar 

14 with these meetings. Some of you are new, I 

15 believe. I'd ask for your consideration. 

16 Please speak one at a time. Please say your 

17 name for the record each time you speak. You 

18 don't need to say your organizational 

19 affiliation unless you wish to. If you keep 

20 the focus here, turn your cell phones or 

21 other media on silent and limit sidebar 

22 conversations. We'll need to turn these 
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1 microphones on and off. We've already gotten 

2 kind of used to that. I'm going to be 

3 queuing individuals by name as best I can to 

4 speak. 

5 I also wish to encourage follow-on 

6 comment, the back and forth between 

7 individuals is sometimes very helpful to the 

8 Department. And web participants, once 

9 again, we welcome you into this conversation. 

10 Mute your phones and raise your hand if you 

11 wish to participate. 

12 So I think that's all the 

13 preliminary stuff. And now I'd like to 

14 invite any individual that wishes to to make 

15 an opening statement, opening remarks. 

16 Joanna Mauer. 

17 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. First, we 

18 want to acknowledge the significant effort 

19 that DOE has made in this rulemaking to 

20 develop a workable framework for standards 

21 for walk-in coolers and freezers which have 

22 the potential to achieve very large energy 
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1 savings. 

2 We also want to acknowledge the 

3 significant work that was put into refining 

4 the analysis since the preliminary technical 

5 support document was issued. 

6 We believe that DOE has proposed 

7 strong efficiency levels. However, we urge 

8 DOE to consider a modified trial standard 

9 level which we'll call TSL 4.5 which would 

10 deliver even greater cost effective energy 

11 savings than the levels proposed in the NOPR. 

12 This modified trial standard level 

13 would combine TSL 4 levels for the envelope 

14 components with TSL 5 levels for 

15 refrigeration systems. While the TSL 4 

16 levels generally seem to be appropriate for 

17 envelope components, based on DOE's analysis, 

18 TSL 5 levels for refrigeration systems are 

19 very cost effective. 

20 In addition, we encourage DOE to 

21 reevaluate how design options are combined 

22 for display doors. It appears as though in 
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1 the case of medium temperature display doors, 

2 for example, four design options, lighting 

3 sensors, film layers, soft low-e coating, and 

4 krypton fill were incorporated in the max. 

5 tech TSL as a package, while none of these 

6 individual design options appear at lower 

7 trial standard levels. 

8 We would expect lighting sensors, 

9 for example, to be a very cost effective 

10 design option that would be incorporated in 

11 other trial standard levels including TSL 4. 

12 We hope to better understand why some of 

13 these display door design options were not 

14 incorporated at levels below max. tech. It 

15 seems that evaluating these display door 

16 design options separately may increase the 

17 envelope savings at TSL 4. 

18 Regarding the framework for 

19 standards, we agree that setting component 

20 standards for panels and doors makes sense. 

21 This should alleviate concerns that we and 

22 others raised earlier in this rulemaking 
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1 regarding certification and enforcement of 

2 envelope components. However, we still have 

3 certification and enforcement concerns on the 

4 refrigeration system side. 

5 Specifically, our understanding is 

6 that for dedicated remote condensing systems, 

7 in many cases the condensing unit and unit 

8 cooler may be supplied by different 

9 manufacturers. A workable framework for 

10 certification and enforcement for 

11 refrigeration systems is especially important 

12 since DOE estimates that more than 75 percent 

13 of the potential savings in this rulemaking 

14 would come from improved refrigeration system 

15 efficiency. 

16 We hope to learn more today about 

17 DOE's thinking regarding how certification 

18 and enforcement would work for dedicated 

19 remote condensing refrigeration systems. 

20 We thank DOE for the opportunity to 

21 participate in today's public meeting and we 

22 look forward to the discussion. Thank you. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

2 Other comments here at the outset. 

3 Ellis? 

4 MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig, Craig 

5 Industries, U.S. Cooler. First of all, we 

6 want to thank the DOE for allowing us to have 

7 this opportunity to comment on what we're 

8 doing which is a big shift in our industry. 

9 We have not been regulated and now we are, so 

10 it makes a big change for a lot of us small 

11 businesses. 

12 I have two points I want to bring 

13 up. One is that consistently through the 

14 document we see that the DOE comments that 

15 small businesses may be disproportionately 

16 impacted by this regulation which is of great 

17 concern to us since about 80 percent of the 

18 people in this industry are small businesses. 

19 It takes 750 or less to be a small business, 

20 so this is a very big concern for us. And we 

21 see that it's acknowledged, but we don't see 

22 where that impact has really been taken into 
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1 consideration of how bad it's going to affect 

2 these small businesses and how many of them 

3 are going to be put out of business and how 

4 many of them are going to be -- how many will 

5 be left. That's a real concern to us. 

6 And number two is there's an item in 

7 the document that says that the cost of the 

8 panel square footage is .25 cents or 25 

9 cents. We don't know if that was used in 

10 calculation, in coming to conclusions about 

11 which level of efficiency we were selecting, 

12 but if it was, that's a very wrong number. 

13 It's really concerning to us because 

14 you can't buy a candy bar for 25 cents. You 

15 can't build a panel for anywhere close to 

16 that, 20 times more would be more realistic. 

17 So one of our concerns is if that was used, 

18 that will change the impact it will have on a 

19 small restaurant, small businesses, even a 

20 lot of the calculations that were used in 

21 walk-in coolers. So that's a clarification 

22 that you would like to see. 
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1 Other than that, there are several 

2 questions we have about it, but we'll 

3 hopefully address that once we're going 

4 through this document. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

6 That's helpful. Yes. 

7 Harmon. 

8 MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis, American 

9 Panel. Page 57 of 203 where I printed it 

10 out, the American Panel, me, is attributed to 

11 that cost per square foot of panel was too 

12 high. Actual costs were closer to 25 cents. 

13 I never said that. 

14 In my written comments, what I did 

15 say was related, that a $100 strip curtain 

16 used on a 400 square foot walk-in was a cost 

17 of 25 cents per square foot and a strip 

18 curtain would be a good energy saver on air 

19 infiltration. That cost per square foot, I'm 

20 not going to tell you my cost. I'll tell you 

21 my selling -- we don't even want to tell you 

22 either one, but it's much more than both of 
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1 those, as Ellis says, about 20 times. 

2 We're a small manufacturer, third 

3 generation family owned, privately held. 

4 Most of the companies in this industry are 

5 small. Again, you acknowledge we're going to 

6 be impacted, but when you're spreading those 

7 significant equipment costs in buildings, 

8 it's just not going to be a fair situation. 

9 Another thing in the document, 

10 there's 2 million annual sales in units of 

11 walk-in coolers and that number is probably 

12 off by 100 times. I don't know where that 

13 came from, whoever put that number in the 

14 chart to explain it to all of us because I 

15 think all the companies that are here, we 

16 can't build two million. 

17 On page 191 of the document, it 

18 assumed the baseline was wood framing was 

19 kind of standard in the industry and that's 

20 probably less than 15 percent of the 

21 manufacturers. So I'm not sure, like Ellis, 

22 where you went from that starting point, but 
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1 that's not a correct starting point if you're 

2 trying to represent what happens in the 

3 industry. 

4 We're also concerned with the reams 

5 and reams, what we're saving in oil, we're 

6 killing in trees, plus I don't know how small 

7 manufacturers, we're 200 employees. If I put 

8 every employee on one page, it would be to 

9 Christmas until they knew that the stuff was 

10 right. I appreciate all the data, but we're 

11 going to need to know what formulas were, 

12 etcetera, to have an idea if any of it holds 

13 water in the real world. There's a lot in 

14 the scientific and whatever, but what you 

15 learn in school isn't necessarily what 

16 happens in the real world when people operate 

17 walk-in coolers and freezers. 

18 Again, I appreciate the opportunity 

19 to be here and appreciate all that you all 

20 have done. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

22 Harmon. Other comments here at the outset? 
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1 Yes, please, Jim. 

2 MR. KINSER: Jim Kinser of 

3 Louisville Cooler Manufacturing Company. 

4 I was wondering if the DOE had 

5 considered a cost share to help smaller 

6 businesses do some of this testing. I know 

7 you're going to spend money on enforcement. 

8 I'd rather see you spend that money helping 

9 small businesses like my friends here said 

10 that the bulk of the manufacturers in this 

11 industry are my guess less than 50 employees, 

12 not 750. And the impact on us is going to be 

13 dramatic. In fact, you even state in here 

14 that you expect some businesses to close up 

15 or be forced to partner up with other 

16 businesses. 

17 I don't know if this is the right 

18 time to ask, but I think we all know that the 

19 Department of Agriculture has cost share for 

20 farmers and tree planting and things like 

21 that. I would like the DOE to consider a 

22 cost share to help small manufacturers meet 
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1 the requirements that you may come up with. 

2 That's all. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

4 you. Additional comments here at the outset? 

5 Yes, Jon, you have some slides? 

6 MR. McHUGH: Yes. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Can you cue 

8 his slides? Thank you, Emily. 

9 Jon McHugh. 

10 MR. McHUGH: Hi, I'm Jon McHugh. 

11 And I'm supporting the California IOUs here 

12 today. 

13 The question is can we change the 

14 global environment? I think that you can see 

15 that we have, just whether you're looking 

16 from a satellite or you're looking at the 

17 amount of CO2 in the air. We've had a 

18 substantial change in the short term. And 

19 I'm happy to be a member of the American 

20 Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air 

21 Conditioning Engineers because this is one 

22 technical organization that has addressed 
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1 global problems in our industry. And if you 

2 look at it, we've actually turned the corner 

3 in terms of ozone depletion and certainly 

4 there's other things we can as well in terms 

5 of energy consumption and greenhouse gas 

6 emissions. 

7 This graph here on the X axis or on 

8 the efficiency axis is the life-cycle cost of 

9 measures that reduce carbon emissions. And 

10 if you look at all of these elements that are 

11 on the left side of the graph, these are all 

12 things that have a net life-cycle savings and 

13 as a result increase the wealth of the 

14 nation. If you look at the things that are 

15 basically after the fact and carbon 

16 sequestration and things like that on the 

17 energy supply side, those things actually 

18 increase the cost of energy and as a result 

19 this really sort of raises the question about 

20 it, is there a no regrets path of at least 

21 trying to save energy through energy 

22 efficiency and increase the wealth of the 
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1 country. 

2 So these are the refrigeration 

3 measures that DOE is looking at and the items 

4 that are highlighted in red are the items 

5 that are in the TSL 5. And as we heard 

6 Joanna talk about earlier, perhaps it makes 

7 sense to also look at these measures that are 

8 in TSL 5. They seem to be things that folks 

9 are using and are cost effective and 

10 hopefully we'll have a good discussion about 

11 that today. This is just sort of where you 

12 would find that in that huge document. 

13 Here's the economic summary of TSL 4 

14 versus TSL 5. And what you can see is that 

15 where the simple paybacks have changed going 

16 from TSL 5 of where there actually is a 

17 change, the longest simple payback is a four18 year simple payback of the measures that they 

19 looked at for TSL 5 with most of the rest of 

20 them being right around simple payback of 3. 

21 If you look at this from the actual 

22 -- your end users -- so people who are buying 
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1 your walk-ins, if you look at a five-year 

2 period of analysis, if you look at most of 

3 those measures which TSL 5 measures which 

4 have a simple payback of around 3 years, 

5 we're looking at 17 percent rate of return 

6 which I wish I could get that on money that I 

7 have invested. And if you look at the longer 

8 time period, you're looking at 20 to 30 

9 percent rate of return, not a bad investment. 

10 And hopefully, when you're selling your new 

11 products to customers, that's actually part 

12 of the marketing. 

13 If you look at the share prices of 

14 your customers over the long term, this is 

15 over the last ten years, I'm showing a 

16 variety of different end users, whether 

17 they're supermarkets or restaurants. You can 

18 see that, in general, the rate of return for 

19 those investments are less than the rate of 

20 return or savings that you would get from the 

21 measures in TSL 5. 

22 In terms of insulation panel 
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1 options, we're looking at what DOE has 

2 proposed I think is fairly modest. For 

3 display doors, as Joanna was talking about 

4 earlier, as you see in the red, again, we've 

5 put all of these measures together, occupant 

6 sensing, soft coat low-e, those have been 

7 combined with basically a four-layer door 

8 which has two layers of glass and two layers 

9 of suspended films and really sort of raises 

10 the question about in terms of looking at the 

11 analysis of separating that and looking at 

12 those independently. 

13 Occupancy sensing, one of the 

14 organizations that I support is Southern 

15 California Edison. We believe that their 

16 analysis was used from one store as sort of 

17 the basis for the two and a half hours. 

18 There's also -- there's a range of different 

19 applications and here's a similar application 

20 with twice the savings or one and a half 

21 times the savings from SMUD and would result 

22 in essentially seven full load hours per day 
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1 of reduced energy consumption instead of the 

2 two and a half. That SMUD, at that SMUD 

3 building, or at the store, this is a rating, 

4 the savings is about $150 per year for three, 

5 five-door cases. 

6 The desirable outcomes of the rule 

7 that we can actually like other appliance 

8 standards that they're enforced at the level 

9 of the dozens of manufacturers and the tens 

10 of thousands of contractors that this is a 

11 very competitive market where people are able 

12 to mix and match products and are able to 

13 optimize both energy efficiency and the cost 

14 of their product. That restraint of trade is 

15 minimized, that the burdens that are placed 

16 on industry don't result in a situation where 

17 markets are reduced and that -- especially if 

18 you look at how some of the testing 

19 requirements are. That sort of encourages 

20 vertically-integrated businesses and I think 

21 is somewhat discriminatory towards businesses 

22 that make components. 
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1 That performance information is 

2 accurate and that there are certified 

3 ratings. And in terms of enforceability, I 

4 think we've actually made great progress from 

5 where we started out at which was a single 

6 performance standard and we now essentially 

7 have three component performance standards 

8 for the three components listed above. And 

9 this -- from an enforceability point of view, 

10 I think the standard would be more 

11 enforceable if the refrigeration side of 

12 things with -- if the format was more like 

13 AHRI 1200. The test burden would be less and 

14 the enforceability would be greater because, 

15 especially on the condensing unit side, you 

16 basically could enforce that at the level of 

17 the catalog rather than all the various 

18 combinations of products. 

19 And I think that there's a variety 

20 of enforcement questions that hopefully we're 

21 going to hear about today in terms of when 

22 you define the contractors, the manufacturer, 
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1 what is going to occur in terms of that 

2 manufacturer? Is there any sort of 

3 certification of the manufacturer? Is there 

4 any required training? What is the process 

5 of submitting documentation from that quote 

6 unquote manufacturer to DOE and I won't go 

7 through the rest of the questions, but I 

8 think you all can read faster than I can 

9 talk. But hopefully, we'll discuss those 

10 today. 

11 Thank you very much. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

13 Jon. 

14 Robert. 

15 MR. WILKINS: Thank you, Robert 

16 Wilkins, Danfoss. I'd like to start by 

17 applauding the work that DOE has done and its 

18 consultants have done here. This is a 

19 challenging issue to address, but one in 

20 which efficiency improvements can certainly 

21 be accomplished. 

22 As Jon has described, walk-ins are 
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1 built up in the field. There really is no 

2 manufacturer in the traditional sense except 

3 maybe the contractor from components. 

4 However, many of the components that DOE and 

5 the consultants have identified are really 

6 composites of other components and 

7 subcomponents that are available in the 

8 marketplace. 

9 As you know, the contractor walks 

10 into a wholesaler. He buys -- he probably 

11 may say I want a refrigeration system, but 

12 he's more likely to say I want a unit cooler. 

13 I want a compressor. Okay, I need the cover 

14 to go on that unit because it's either going 

15 to go outside or not. I need some valves. I 

16 need a pressure control. I need a catalog of 

17 items and subcomponents. 

18 So I'm interested to see how DOE is 

19 solving -- I'm not objecting to it at this 

20 point, but interested to see how DOE will 

21 solve that problem and regulate that system 

22 that's really not a system. It's just a 
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1 collection of components. 

2 Also, the component approach, we 

3 believe, ignores system level efficiency 

4 improvement opportunities. Electronic 

5 controls are rapidly advancing and offer 

6 excellent opportunities to control system7 level efficiency, but if the system is not 

8 regulated, then those opportunities are 

9 missed in this analysis. So we've got 

10 concerns about the complexity and regulatory 

11 burden in overlooking system level efficiency 

12 components. As I mentioned, I'm not filing 

13 an objection at this point. I want to listen 

14 carefully and learn how DOE has addressed 

15 these issues and hopefully the group around 

16 the table can help contribute to finding some 

17 solutions to these issues. So thank you for 

18 the opportunity to comment. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

20 Harvey Sachs. 

21 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

22 For those who are not immersed in the 
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1 regulatory structures of the California 

2 system, I'd just like to offer a couple of 

3 translations on Mr. McHugh's comments. An 

4 IOU is an Investor-Owned Utility. SMUD 

5 refers to the Sacramental Municipal Utility 

6 District. All of these entities are doing a 

7 great deal of research on how energy is 

8 actually used in the field because they now 

9 have incentives to make more money by selling 

10 less electricity. Thank you. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

12 Yes? 

13 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

15 Fred. 

16 MR. MINELLI: It's interesting in 

17 Jon's presentation how quickly he went over 

18 the panel portion of the components because 

19 the panels themselves do not consume energy. 

20 They're simply an R-value. That's all that 

21 we can bring to the component part of the 

22 walk-in is R-value. DOE is now asking for 
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1 manufacturers, and this goes back to the cost 

2 to small manufacturers, asking manufacturers 

3 to conduct new testing. The ASTM C 1363 is 

4 one. 

5 There are only two labs in the 

6 United States that are qualified to do that 

7 test and I have found no test labs qualified 

8 to do the long term European standard for 

9 testing. So it's just difficult to 

10 understand the additional cost, the 

11 additional testing when all we're really 

12 providing in a panel component is R-value so 

13 that if there's some number that we would 

14 rather have than R-25 and R-32, let's simply 

15 raise the minimum R-value and leave the 

16 testing back to the ASTM C 518. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

18 MR. MINELLI: Thank you. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional 

20 comments here before we launch into the more 

21 detailed content? Okay, then let's proceed. 

22 Charles Llenza. 
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1 MR. LLENZA: Okay, we're going to go 

2 through the overview, scope, test procedures 

3 and the metrics. 

4 So the Department of Energy bases 

5 its analysis for this rulemaking on the EPCA 

6 Factors, the seven factors. We are directed 

7 by 42 U.S.C. 6295(o)(2)(B)(i) to consider 

8 seven factors in setting energy conservation 

9 standards. These factors map out to the DOE 

10 analysis as you see in the slide. The 

11 current standards walk-in cooler freezers 

12 means -- the way we define walk-in cooler 

13 freezer is an enclosed storage space 

14 refrigerated to temperatures respectively at 

15 or below 55 degrees Fahrenheit and above 32 

16 degrees Fahrenheit, and at or below 32 

17 degrees Fahrenheit, that can be walked into 

18 and has a total chilled storage area of less 

19 than 3,000 square feet. Products designed 

20 and marketed exclusively for medical and 

21 scientific and research purposes are 

22 excluded. 
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1 EISA 2007 established the current 

2 energy conservation standards as of January 

3 1, 2009. And the current standards are 

4 prescriptive standards that require certain 

5 components or characteristics for walk-in 

6 coolers, freezers, and the examples are here, 

7 wall ceiling and door insulation of at least 

8 R-25 for coolers and R-32 for freezers, 

9 electronically commutated motors for 

10 evaporator fan motors of under 1 horsepower 

11 or less than 460 volts, certain anti-sweat 

12 heater requirements and others, all current 

13 standards can be found at 10 CFR 431.306. 

14 Test Procedures. DOE test 

15 procedures are used to certify for compliance 

16 with the standards. For certifying 

17 compliance with current prescriptive 

18 standards for R-value panels foam shall be 

19 tested using ASTM C518-04. For certifying 

20 compliance with the standards in the proposed 

21 NOPR, the U-factor, we're testing for the U22 factor, conduction load and energy use of 
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1 panels are determined by conducting the test 

2 procedure in Appendix A, Subpart R of 10 CFR 

3 431, sections 4.1-4.3. 

4 The energy use of the doors is 

5 determined by conducting the test procedures 

6 in Appendix A to Subpart R of 10 CFR 431, 

7 sections 4.4-4.5. And the Annual Walk-in 

8 Energy Factor for the walk-in cooler’s or 

9 freezer’s refrigeration system is determined 

10 by conducting the test procedure set forth in 

11 AHRI 1250 and the 2009 Standard for 

12 Performance Rating of Walk-in Coolers and 

13 Freezers. All current DOE test procedures 

14 for the walk-in cooler and freezers can be 

15 found at 10 CFR 431.304. 

16 The Scope of Coverage and Component17 Level Standards. DOE is proposing to set 

18 specific component standards for the panels, 

19 display doors, non-display doors, and 

20 refrigeration systems of the walk-ins and not 

21 set a single standard for an assembled walk22 in. I think this is very important to 
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1 consider that we're not setting standards for 

2 the system. We are setting standards for the 

3 components. 

4 There's some further definitions of 

5 this. These components are typically 

6 produced by different manufacturers. Under 

7 this approach, each manufacturer would only 

8 be responsible for certifying the component 

9 or components they manufacture. The modular 

10 nature of the walk-in means it is constructed 

11 of standardized components that can be 

12 assembled in a virtually infinite number of 

13 configurations that may affect the overall 

14 consumption of a given walk-in unit. 

15 Requiring a whole walk-in performance 

16 standard would be likely to present 

17 significant testing and enforcement burdens. 

18 In addition to the fact that we would need 

19 more data in terms of the performance, in 

20 terms of a system and that's one of the 

21 issues why we went back to the component 

22 level. 
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1 Okay, as you can see comment box 

2 Issue 1: DOE seeks comment on the approach 

3 of setting standards at the component level 

4 for walk-ins. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred. 

6 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. Yes, I 

7 agree that it should be components. I just 

8 have a comment on the current standard 

9 section where it says that walk-in coolers 

10 are storage space and then the cooler limits 

11 are above 32 and up to 55 degrees. The 

12 National Sanitation Foundation requires food 

13 storage to be 41 degrees maximum. So I'm not 

14 sure in the earlier conversation where the 55 

15 degrees came from, but that is not a food 

16 storage temperature. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

18 you. 

19 MR. MINELLI: I would suggest that 

20 that be changed. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other 

22 comments on the approach that DOE is 
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1 suggesting? 

2 Mike. 

3 MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub. We agree 

4 with the component level approach and I would 

5 dovetail on the comment about the modular 

6 nature of walk-ins. So if we're going to 

7 treat the walk-in as a modular approach, then 

8 the condensing units and the unit cooler 

9 should be treated the same way because there 

10 are an infinite number of combinations of 

11 unit coolers that could be matched with 

12 condensing units and you really can't treat 

13 them as only one system. A lot of it depends 

14 on the end application of the product that 

15 you're storing, the geometry of the box, how 

16 long the air throw is. Those are all 

17 different factors where you just can't say 

18 that one unit cooler is going to directly 

19 match with one condensing unit. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

21 Yes, Jon? 

22 MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond. I just 
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1 wanted to piggyback on what Mike said. We 

2 found that throughout the industry that some 

3 manufacturers make matched unit coolers and 

4 condensing units, but often times that unit 

5 cooler will be bought independently from the 

6 matched condensing unit system. So I'm a 

7 little concerned that considering the -- 

8 we're concerned with the consideration of 

9 refrigeration systems as a component as a 

10 whole. We're not sure how that will work. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Harvey 

12 Sachs. 

13 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. A couple 

14 of thoughts. One of them is that for 

15 loosely-related products such as commercial 

16 refrigeration, the ASRAC working group last 

17 summer did take some measures that have led 

18 to a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on AEDMs, 

19 Alternative Energy Determination Methods. It 

20 would seem to be incumbent upon the 

21 Department to think about how that can be 

22 used to piggyback through a quest for 
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1 separate certification of the condensing 

2 units and the unit coolers to give a simple 

3 software tool for allowable mixes versus 

4 forbidden mixes on size match and other 

5 characteristics. 

6 And that leads to a question for my 

7 friend Jon Melchi at HARDI for what Robert 

8 Wilkins has brought out that there are 

9 enormous opportunities for some synergies 

10 that are not at the component level and are 

11 unlikely to be regulated. They don't fit 

12 well into the regulatory structure. 

13 The question for you is on the 

14 voluntary side, what can you all do to help 

15 your members make money by selling things 

16 like the integrated controls and other system 

17 level energy saving opportunities since you 

18 all seem to be the place that the contractors 

19 are going for technical advice and solutions. 

20 How's that for a softball? 

21 (Laughter.) 

22 MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi with HARDI. 
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1 Thanks, Harvey. Our members have always had 

2 an interest in selling the newest and best 

3 technologies that they can. However, the 

4 market is dependent upon what the customer 

5 wants and I can tell you that our members are 

6 eager to promote new technologies to their 

7 customers, but at the end of the day it's up 

8 to the contractor that's installing and has 

9 the order to fill, if you will, to decide 

10 what purchase is going to be made. So we 

11 will do our best on the promotional end and 

12 are happy to do so on a voluntary basis. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's get 

14 other final comments on this component 

15 approach. 

16 Robert? 

17 MR. WILKINS: I think I agree with 

18 the discussion about a refrigeration system 

19 is really not a component because it's made 

20 by a group of manufacturers and then who 

21 would be responsible for certifying this 

22 system that is a collection. It's not 
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1 defined. So taking it down a level below 

2 that to require condensing units to be 

3 certified, unit coolers to be certified, 

4 perhaps other components to be certified, on 

5 the one hand makes some sense. It 

6 distributes a regulatory burden to a broader 

7 group of companies. So I have some concerns 

8 there. 

9 But I also have a concern touching 

10 on what Harvey said, the further we push the 

11 regulation down to individual components, 

12 just to be a little facetious, are we going 

13 to regulate the solenoid valve that you use 

14 in the pump down cycle to control the watts 

15 in the coil? I mean we can get this down to 

16 such a level that's difficult to manage, but 

17 more importantly we totally lose the 

18 opportunity to pursue the system level 

19 performance improvements. And that's the 

20 real concern. I would urge us to, as we 

21 balance this, to look at other approaches 

22 that Jon spoke of. 
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1 How could we use some non-regulatory 

2 approaches to really stimulate the use of 

3 these system approaches to raise the 

4 efficiency? I don't have the answer, sir, 

5 but I think the further we push this down, 

6 the more we lose the opportunity to get the 

7 advantage of system-level improvements. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Joanna. 

9 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Given the 

10 nature of the market for walk-in coolers and 

11 freezers, we support the component level 

12 approach. As I mentioned in my opening 

13 statement, we have some similar concerns on 

14 the refrigeration system side as those have 

15 been mentioned, given that a refrigeration 

16 system is not necessarily a component sold by 

17 a single manufacturer and I just wanted to 

18 emphasize that kind of given the very large 

19 savings that DOE has estimated from the 

20 proposed standards from improved efficiency 

21 refrigeration systems. We just want to make 

22 sure that those savings are actually achieved 
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1 in the field through some kind of workable 

2 certification and enforcement approach. 

3 MR. McCRUDDEN: Excuse me, Charlie 

4 McCrudden, Air Conditioning Contractors of 

5 America. I think I want to sort of echo some 

6 of the comments that Robert Wilkins 

7 mentioned. Spreading enforcement and pushing 

8 it downward may make it relatively 

9 impractical and I think that relying upon 

10 contractors -- well, what I shouldn't say is 

11 relying upon contractors. 

12 I think there's an assumption that 

13 there's a reliance upon contractors to do the 

14 right thing to abide by the law and the 

15 regulations whatever they are. But I just 

16 don't know if it's possible for DOE to look 

17 at every single installation. If contractors 

18 are assemblers are manufacturers, I think 

19 it's much easier to look at the matched 

20 systems as we do with the residential 

21 equipment that's out there. 

22 I'm a little new to this so I don't 
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1 know if AHRI's directory looks at -- has 

2 certifications or certificates for matched 

3 systems in these products. I'm sure I'll 

4 find out the answer during a break if I talk 

5 to someone. I just want to make that 

6 comment. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon. 

8 MR. LEWIS: Yes, Harmon Lewis. We 

9 sell refrigeration systems with 76 percent of 

10 the walk-ins that we sell. Of that, we have 

11 104 different air cooled horsepower and 

12 electrical possibilities that we buy from 

13 companies around this table. Each of those 

14 units can be matched up with either, between 

15 five and seven different evaporator 

16 configurations, so I'm going to be testing a 

17 thousand different units. 

18 If you go back to this, we've got to 

19 put it all together. We've been doing this 

20 for 50 years. We think we know what we're 

21 doing. I don't know that we can prove it to 

22 the whole world, but our customers keep 
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1 coming back and buying more and more and we 

2 are energy interested. 

3 I've got grandchildren. Every day 

4 they ask me, "Poppa, what are you doing to 

5 save our environment?" And I tell them what 

6 I did, at a minimum recycling, whatever. I 

7 won't bore you with that, but we have to take 

8 and use the data from the condensing unit 

9 manufacturers, from the unit cooler 

10 manufacturers from these component 

11 manufacturers that the expansion valves will 

12 do what they do and we test and if they work 

13 we use them. If they don't, we don't. 

14 So again, 76 percent of the time 

15 they're going to come to us to buy it because 

16 they know they'll get something that will 

17 work and they know they've got one place to 

18 come if it doesn't work. If he goes and buys 

19 things at six different places, everybody 

20 points the finger. "My thing is fine. It's 

21 his thing." So they know our name is on the 

22 door. Our name is on the refrigeration and 
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1 we resolve it. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

3 you. Jim. 

4 MR. KINSER: I would suggest that 

5 let's just pick a particular evaporator that 

6 if you have a rating of say 9,000 BTUs you 

7 have a plus or minus range of a couple of 

8 thousand BTUs to allow somebody like Harmon 

9 to match that with a particular compressor to 

10 meet the needs of a particular job. 

11 I'm a little concerned that you have 

12 a certification on a particular condenser or 

13 an evaporator and it's hard and fast. It's 

14 going to stymie the improvements from 

15 Heatcraft and some of these other companies 

16 to make improvements because they don't want 

17 to have to go back and go through a whole 

18 other certification process. So that's all I 

19 would say. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis. 

21 MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. Our 

22 concern -- we agree with the component 
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1 approach, due to the fact that the industry 

2 is pretty well established that way and it 

3 gives us a lot of flexibility to meet 

4 specific requirements. So if the items are 

5 certified, then we can put them all together 

6 and come up with our energy. Believe me, no 

7 one in the walk-in business wants to sell 

8 refrigeration that doesn't work or is not 

9 meeting those requirements. 

10 One thing is concerning me though is 

11 that all this -- everything we're talking 

12 about here is addressed pretty much at the 

13 manufacturer. What concerns me is if we are 

14 not careful the burden is put on us, but if 

15 you are a contractor and you walk into a 

16 wholesaler and they're selling things that 

17 are not certified, well then we lose it all 

18 there. So in other words, no matter what we 

19 sell or what we're held to, if a contractor 

20 can go in and buy something that's not 

21 compliant and use it on a new walk-in, 

22 there's -- that puts us in a tremendous 
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1 competitive disadvantage. So if we're going 

2 to do what we're talking about doing, it 

3 needs to be across the board and not just for 

4 the manufacturer. But these wholesalers need 

5 to be in that situation, too. 

6 Last time we were here, we were 

7 talking about that and it was a great 

8 discussion, but we never saw any conclusion 

9 to how that was going to be handled. The 

10 last time we heard they were going to be and 

11 then was a big row and I never got the answer 

12 to that. So I'd like clarification on that, 

13 too. 

14 MR. MELCHI: John Melchi with HARDI. 

15 Our members in the wholesale community 

16 oftentimes sell a wide range of products at 

17 one time. It's very difficult for a 

18 wholesaler to govern, if you will, specific 

19 transactions. If a contractor comes in and 

20 says that he's using a part for a repair, 

21 then that part needs to be available for 

22 repair. It is not the responsibility of the 
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1 wholesaler to determine where this product is 

2 being installed. It could go to Bermuda once 

3 it leaves the warehouse or the store. And we 

4 do not think it's the good approach to limit 

5 product availability for replacement and 

6 repair that at the end would hurt the end 

7 user. You could hypothetically then be 

8 forcing an end user or a customer to incur 

9 substantial cost when there are replacement 

10 parts available. 

11 As my colleague Charlie said 

12 earlier, his contractors, the contractors 

13 that he represents take great care and 

14 responsibility to put the right parts in the 

15 right components together. My members take 

16 great care and great responsibility to sell 

17 the best systems available as Harvey 

18 indicated. But we simply need product 

19 available to repair existing equipment and I 

20 don't know that eliminating those products 

21 and their availability is going to get you 

22 where you want to go. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey. 

2 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. 

3 John, I think the record needs to 

4 reflect that within the last five years we've 

5 seen incredibly large-scale abuse of the 

6 concept of repair components. In the 

7 shipment of R-22 dry ship condensing units 

8 that were a clear effort of manufacturers and 

9 the entire feeding chain below, don't want to 

10 get into who started it, to subvert the SEER 

11 13 law by providing equipment which could not 

12 provide the functions required to meet the 

13 law. 

14 So I suspect there will be a great 

15 deal of interest in approaches that support 

16 the goal of legitimate repair parts 

17 availability without the abuses we've seen 

18 with what I'll call subsystem level 

19 replacements. I recognize that walk-ins are 

20 a very different animal from residential air 

21 conditioners. But this was a pretty bad 

22 experience in terms of national energy 
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1 savings and in terms of disrupting the level 

2 playing field of the market, refrigerants as 

3 well as equipment. I think it is a matter 

4 which has sensitized an awful lot of people 

5 to the potential for harm under the apple pie 

6 and other good things rubric of repair parts. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: The context 

8 is important here. Let's not drift too far. 

9 Let's get back to the components comments 

10 here. If there are any additional, we're 

11 about to move on. 

12 Jon? 

13 MR. McHUGH: So I think this 

14 reflects a lot of the concerns I alluded to 

15 in the opening comments and historically, DOE 

16 in an appliance standard rulemaking has 

17 created rules for the efficiency of products 

18 that can be enforced at the level of the 

19 manufacturer's catalog. I think what I think 

20 you're hearing is that a number of people are 

21 saying that it would probably be advantageous 

22 in terms of test burden, in terms of 
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1 enforceability, to consider splitting the 

2 refrigeration standard into a condensing unit 

3 standard and a unit cooler standard. Then 

4 American Panel can say hey, I'm purchasing a 

5 compliant unit cooler and I'm purchasing a 

6 compliant condenser. I'm done. These guys 

7 have done their testing. And it would 

8 simplify the process. 

9 The larger mix/match approach 

10 probably actually makes more sense as a 

11 voluntary standard in terms of applying for 

12 utility incentives or that sort of thing 

13 based on manufacturer efficiencies that 

14 Robert had kind of talked about. How do we 

15 go beyond what is minimally compliant and so 

16 right now I think we have this problem that 

17 potentially there was some overreach in the 

18 legislation and DOE is trying to make the 

19 best of it, but to the extent that we've 

20 already gone down the path of saying that a 

21 component performance approach makes sense on 

22 the envelope and the refrigeration system. 
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1 Perhaps it makes sense to have a component 

2 performance approach for the unit cooler and 

3 the condensing unit. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert. 

5 MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins, 

6 Danfoss. I largely agree with Jon and I urge 

7 us to pursue that. I think we have to -- 

8 there are some issues that need to be probed 

9 further. For example. I have a condensing 

10 unit that my company manufactures. It's 

11 certified, let's say. I have evaporator 

12 units over here and it's certified. But how 

13 do I know this condensing unit can work with 

14 this evaporator? And if the choice is not 

15 properly made then I've got a mismatch or 

16 imbalance in the system that no one has 

17 control over unless we thrust it at someone 

18 that today has to assume a burden or 

19 responsibility that it doesn't have today. 

20 I think that mismatch and it's 

21 partially related to the system efficiency 

22 argument that I posited a few moments ago, 
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1 but it's more basic than that. You've got to 

2 be smart about the way these two subsystems 

3 work together. And it's more complicated in 

4 refrigeration than it is in unitary air 

5 conditioning where the unitary system 

6 manufacturer can take that responsibility. 

7 That body doesn't really exist today in this 

8 industry. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

10 MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond. I agree 

11 with a lot that's been said. One thing I 

12 want to touch on in regards to the standard 

13 level for the component of a refrigeration 

14 system is something that Harvey briefly 

15 touched and that is the recent Supplemental 

16 Notice of Proposed Rule in AEDM that just 

17 came out which does not include walk-in 

18 coolers. So in order for a complete metric 

19 of matched, mix/match unit coolers and 

20 condensing units, we think the option of an 

21 AEDM needs to be there for these products, 

22 especially for these products. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, are we 

2 ready to move on now? Harmon, go ahead. 

3 MR. LEWIS: A real fast one. As we 

4 take the performance curves from the 

5 condenser unit manufacturer, the evaporator 

6 manufacturer, one is this way, one is that 

7 way, where they meet it better be less than -

8 - right around a ten degree TD or it's going 

9 to be too wet. It's going to be too dry. 

10 We've got to look at all of that. And if 

11 it's wrong, again, it's our name on the door, 

12 we've got to make it right. It's expensive. 

13 We're going to do the right thing whatever 

14 DOE comes up with. Hopefully other 

15 manufacturers take that same approach. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Go ahead, 

17 Robert. 

18 MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins again. 

19 And I agree with that I think that can work. 

20 But remember, you said that -- you used a 

21 figure, if I recall, somewhere around three 

22 quarters of the units are sold combined sets. 
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1 There's another group out there, maybe one 

2 quarter. 

3 I don't know the exact, where the 

4 contractor is going into the wholesaler, he's 

5 a sharp contractor. He builds these things 

6 up. He buys the panels. He buys the 

7 condensing unit, the evaporators, all the 

8 components and he assembles it. In that part 

9 of the business, who is going to -- the 

10 question is open. Who is going to play that 

11 role in that sector of the business? 

12 MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis. That 24 

13 percent that we don't have the market share 

14 of, over 15 percent of that they're hooking 

15 up to a rack system so we're not in that 

16 ballgame. So you're down below 10 percent 

17 where somebody is going to a contractor 

18 because they learned they can come to us and 

19 be taken care of. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie 

21 Stephens. 

22 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, 
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1 Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. I 

2 think the discussion here is really leading 

3 us to the place we need to go. I think there 

4 are some problems that federal standards 

5 can't solve. We may not be able to get at 

6 the five to ten percent. There may be other 

7 methodologies. 

8 My organization, for instance, is in 

9 the business of investing in systems level 

10 energy savings given good components. I 

11 think -- I sense a lot of agreement here 

12 about the component level regulation. I think 

13 there are ways to take care of the other 

14 things that come along and given how many 

15 just plain simple and long history 

16 residential heat pump systems that we've 

17 looked at that have a COP of 1.2 as 

18 installed, they met the standards when they 

19 left the factory, but you know, we can't 

20 solve all those problems with a standard. 

21 But I think most of us can get out there and 

22 try to go after the ten percent that we don't 
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1 get. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

3 Please say your name. 

4 MR. SCHAEFFER: Buzz Schaeffer with 

5 Hussmann. Just a quick comment. I'd like to 

6 concur on the basic current standard 

7 definition of we're concerned about having 

8 the standards go up to 55 degrees that we may 

9 ensnare some processes in the food chain 

10 unintentionally that have totally different 

11 energy profiles than traditional storage 

12 systems. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

14 you. This conceptual discussion struck me as 

15 being necessary. I think we're done with it 

16 now, right? We're going to move on. 

17 MR. LLENZA: Yes, just a reminder 

18 also, please, we like written comments. So 

19 if you can summarize your comments in written 

20 form and provide that to the Department that 

21 would be greatly appreciated. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So back to 
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1 Charles Llenza. 

2 MR. LLENZA: I'm going to talk about 

3 the component standard metrics which has a 

4 lot to do with the discussion that we just 

5 went through. The energy standards for each 

6 component are expressed in terms of 

7 component-specific metrics. So for the 

8 refrigeration systems, we have a Minimum 

9 Annual Walk-in Energy Factor, AWEF. And 

10 represents the ratio of the heat removed from 

11 the walk-in to the energy input of the 

12 refrigeration system over one year. 

13 For panels, the maximum U-factor, 

14 the amount of heat conducted through the 

15 panel per hour, per square foot of panel 

16 area, per degree Fahrenheit of temperature 

17 difference across the panel. 

18 For the doors, it's a maximum daily 

19 energy use, a combination of the electrical 

20 energy used by the door components, plus the 

21 estimated energy used by refrigeration system 

22 to reject the heat conducted through the 
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1 door. 

2 Issue 10: DOE seeks comments on the 

3 proposed metrics. Again, this ties into 

4 probably the first part of the discussion, 

5 but now we're talking specifics for the 

6 metrics of the components. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I didn't get 

8 your name at the outset. 

9 MR. SENTER: Guy Senter. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please, 

11 you're next. 

12 MR. SENTER: Regarding the passage 

13 doors, we actually suggested that DOE 

14 consider using a different metric for the 

15 doors. We see the majority of the heat gain 

16 in a door is the heat coming through the 

17 periphery of the door cap, not an area-based 

18 approach, but a length-based approach. 

19 And I'll give you an example, when 

20 you step up from a small to a medium, your 

21 areas increases by 29 percent and your 

22 periphery increases by 11. So therefore we 
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1 are suggesting that you calculate the heat 

2 gain through the door in a process similar to 

3 an ASTM C 1363. You simply measure the 

4 heater anti-sweat devices along with your 

5 heat going into the metering chamber. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

7 you. 

8 Other comments on Slide 14? 

9 Proposed Metrics? Nothing additional. Okay. 

10 MR. LLENZA: Again, we welcome 

11 written comments. 

12 I'm just going to give you a brief 

13 overview of the rulemaking schedule. In 

14 2009, we provided a Framework Document 

15 meeting and at this point in time we're at 

16 the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking meeting. 

17 And we've gone through the preliminary TSD. 

18 As you can see, the original statutory 

19 deadline for the final rule was 2012. That 

20 is now the projected deadline, projected 

21 month is April 2014. With a projected 

22 timeframe of 2014, we are projecting a 
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1 compliance time frame of April 2017. And 

2 that's pretty much what the Department sees 

3 as where we're headed with the time line. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert. 

5 MR. WILKINS: Thank you. I just 

6 wonder if we are taking such a large step 

7 splitting this refrigeration system into two 

8 parts, condensing units and evaporator 

9 assemblies, whether more time is needed to 

10 address that and come up with appropriate 

11 approaches for those two components. We 

12 haven't even looked at that yet. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

14 Guy, do you have something here? 

15 No. Okay. 

16 Joanna? 

17 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Is DOE 

18 planning to address certification and 

19 enforcement as part of the standards 

20 rulemaking or would that not come until 

21 after? 

22 MR. LLENZA: We work together with 
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1 the enforcement and compliance teams and what 

2 we do is we're trying to make sure that the 

3 standards set are reasonably enforceable that 

4 the manufacturers and parties that provide 

5 walk-in coolers and freezers can meet those 

6 standards. But it's a separate -- the 

7 enforcement activity is a separate activity 

8 that happens after the final rule becomes -- 

9 we finalize the final rule and publish. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred? 

11 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I would 

12 like to suggest that we extend the time 

13 somewhat, primarily because of my earlier 

14 comments about the ASTM standard and the 

15 European standard that panel manufacturers 

16 are going to be forced to test to. At 

17 today's date, there are two, only two, test 

18 labs certify to conduct ASTM C 1363. And 

19 there are none that even know what that 

20 European standard is. I think without some 

21 better development of those standards or 

22 better understanding of those standards that 
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1 we as an industry, the panel industry are 

2 going to have a very, very difficult time 

3 complying with these dates. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Mike 

5 Kido. 

6 MR. KIDO: Just a quick follow-up to 

7 that. Do you mean, by an extension, are you 

8 referring to the final rule’s projected date 

9 or do you mean the actual compliance date 

10 that would flow from this particular 

11 rulemaking? 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred? 

13 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. 

14 Compliance date and testing date, both. If 

15 we can't test, if there's no one that can run 

16 the test, how are we going to be able to 

17 test? Thank you. 

18 MR. RAWALD: Fred, this is Doug 

19 Rawald. I want to follow-up on that. So we 

20 currently have a test procedure in place with 

21 a date for when it's going to be effective. 

22 Do you want a delay in that date as well? Is 
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1 that what you're asking? 

2 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. You 

3 said you have the delay effective -- 

4 MR. RAWALD: No, there's a test 

5 procedure in place that's going to become 

6 effective on a certain date. Do you want 

7 that to be delayed as well? Is that what 

8 you're asking? 

9 MR. MINELLI: Yes. I think that it 

10 should be delayed until there are test labs 

11 that are qualified to do these tests and more 

12 than two that can only do one test and no one 

13 that can do the other. 

14 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald 

15 again. Can you include in your written 

16 comments that you provide us a date that you 

17 would propose for that delay in testing as 

18 well? 

19 MR. MINELLI: Sure. Thank you. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

21 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, 

22 Air Conditioning Contractors of America. I'd 
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1 like to follow up on Joanna's question about 

2 the enforcement and compliance. Am I to 

3 understand that there is a separate 

4 rulemaking on the enforcement that comes out 

5 of this rulemaking and would that be noticed 

6 in the Federal Register? 

7 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. 

8 So there is no currently open rulemaking 

9 regarding certification and enforcement for 

10 walk-in coolers. But if we were to take 

11 advantage of some of the comments here 

12 regarding especially breaking up 

13 refrigeration systems, that would require a 

14 change in Part 429 which is currently where 

15 the certification regulations are for walk-in 

16 coolers as well as all of our other products. 

17 So we would have to do a follow-on rulemaking 

18 for that to go in and do that process. 

19 I mean as folks understand, we 

20 currently require certification from 

21 manufacturers of doors, panels, and 

22 refrigeration systems as a whole so in order 
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1 to adopt the more component level approach we 

2 would definitely have to amend those 

3 regulations that do that. 

4 MR. McCRUDDEN: Would the follow-up 

5 on the course of certification and rulemaking 

6 then have to be shoe horned into the 

7 compliance date of April 2017? 

8 MR. RAWALD: I would think so, but I 

9 would be speaking out of turn if I gave a 

10 definitive answer to that. So what we would 

11 do is we'd go through an ordinary notice and 

12 comment rulemaking process to put that rule 

13 in place and with the hope of making sure 

14 that it will meet those dates. 

15 MR. McCRUDDEN: And one final 

16 question. Right now, if there's a violation 

17 of the standards or the rules, who is liable 

18 and what actions can be taken against them? 

19 MR. RAWALD: If I could seek 

20 clarification. So you're saying who is 

21 liable as far as manufacturer versus the 

22 contractor that builds the walk-in? 
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1 MR. McCRUDDEN: I'm assuming right 

2 now it's just manufacturers since this has 

3 only sort of looked at manufacturers. 

4 MR. RAWALD: Right. So the 

5 Department of Energy's regulations define a 

6 manufacturer to include the manufacturer of 

7 both the components and the manufacturer of 

8 the final walk-in. So both parties are 

9 liable for failing to adhere to the standards 

10 that we have in place both under the Energy 

11 Independence Security Act, as well as our 

12 regulations. 

13 MR. McCRUDDEN: Thank you. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert. 

15 MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins, 

16 Danfoss. The discussion here is about the 

17 timeline and the questions were about the 

18 proposed compliance date. I want to draw 

19 that back to the final rule date because I 

20 fear that if we are redefining this 

21 refrigeration system into condensing units 

22 and unit coolers that have not been studied 
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1 separate from each other, no research has 

2 been done. We don't understand the ins and 

3 outs. There's no way we can get that. We 

4 simply have got to get that right. And I'm 

5 not trying to drag the process out, but we've 

6 got to get it right and so I'm arguing I 

7 don't know what that final rule date should 

8 be, but I don't see how DOE can possibly 

9 complete that work between now and when that 

10 is. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: April. 

12 MR. WILKINS: April. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike Kido. 

14 MR. KIDO: Just one follow-up to 

15 that. I will note that the Agency has 

16 submitted a letter to a group of State 

17 Attorneys General and we've made a commitment 

18 to try to complete this particular rulemaking 

19 by April 2014. So that's where that 

20 particular date comes from. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks for 

22 that clarification. 
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1 MR. WILKINS: But if it's 

2 meaningless and there's no basis for it and 

3 we don't know what it is, then we're doing a 

4 disservice to everyone. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

6 Robert. 

7 Michael Kido. 

8 MR. KIDO: We'll certainly take that 

9 into account and with your written comments 

10 if you would have anything else that you'd 

11 like to go into in detail about that 

12 particular date, we'd certainly consider 

13 that. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

15 MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi from HARDI. 

16 Thank you. 

17 Michael, just to ask for a little 

18 clarification, the letters that you reference 

19 from the States Attorney General, can you 

20 provide any context or background for us? Is 

21 that going to be available in the docket? If 

22 it is indeed part of the driving force for 
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1 setting that April 2014 date, I think it's 

2 important for everybody to understand who or 

3 exactly who sent it and what their aim was. 

4 MR. KIDO: We'll make sure that's 

5 entered into the docket. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. I 

7 think we're ready to move on now. Oh, we've 

8 got one more comment. 

9 Buzz? 

10 MR. SCHAEFFER: Buzz Schaeffer, 

11 Hussmann. As far as the compliance date, I 

12 think it's very important that we do take 

13 into consideration the certification process 

14 because both are going to affect business 

15 decisions moving forward. 

16 My company has to make a decision. 

17 Are we going to spend X amount of money to 

18 stay in this market or are we going to 

19 abandon certain segments of the market? So 

20 for us to come with a compliance date and for 

21 us to do a bunch of testing and redesigning 

22 of equipment and then having someone come 
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1 along later for the certification process 

2 that triples our costs would not, I think, be 

3 acceptable to my management. 

4 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. 

5 And we understand your concern. We'll take 

6 that into account in the future rulemaking if 

7 there is one necessary for certification of 

8 these products. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you for 

10 that. Jon. 

11 MR. LEMMOND: One quick note. There 

12 is no AHRI certification program for these 

13 products. There's no third party 

14 certification program for this now, so just 

15 something to consider for the timeline. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

17 Ellis. 

18 MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. I'm 

19 concerned about again small businesses. Is 

20 that going to be addressed before all this 

21 happens or is that just -- how is that dealt 

22 with? Is that overlooked or just gone on or 
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1 do we steamroll over that idea or where are 

2 we at? We're going to have all these things 

3 coming at that we're going to have to comply 

4 with like you said about money being assisted 

5 and several things, so -- 

6 MR. RAWALD: And if I understand 

7 your question, this is Doug Rawald again. 

8 You're talking about with regards to 

9 additional certification requirements? 

10 MR. CRAIG: Yes, the impact it's 

11 having is not proportionate to large 

12 businesses versus small businesses. It's 

13 documented several times in this document 

14 that small businesses are very potentially 

15 being unfairly impacted compared to large 

16 businesses. And is that going to be dealt 

17 with before we start putting this on a 

18 timeline because that's another thing that 

19 really needs to be dealt with before we start 

20 coming out with certifications and all these 

21 type of things. Do you follow what I'm 

22 saying? 
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1 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. I 

2 do understand what you're saying and we do 

3 take seriously the impact on small businesses 

4 in every rulemaking that we do as required by 

5 law and also what's responsible for us. And 

6 so we will take consideration of those 

7 things. And if we do a rulemaking regarding 

8 certification and enforcement of these 

9 products in the future, we will take into 

10 consideration of those. We will ask for 

11 comment and we will consider seriously the 

12 impact this will have. 

13 MR. CRAIG: We're represented by the 

14 Small Business Administration, so trying to 

15 get a hold of them is very hard to get a hold 

16 of them. I guess you know that, right? 

17 MR. RAWALD: Well, right now we're 

18 in shutdown. 

19 MR. CRAIG: Well, not even that. 

20 Even if it was working it's hard to get a 

21 hold of them because you can't just call them 

22 on a telephone number and talk to somebody. 
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1 Our concern is they're representing us. They 

2 should be here representing us in this 

3 situation because we have documentation from 

4 the DOE stating that it's going to impact us, 

5 but that isn't happening at this meeting 

6 because obviously they're not here because of 

7 that shutdown, but how do we deal with that? 

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is Jon 

9 Cymbalsky from DOE. So the Small Business 

10 Administration actually participated in the 

11 interagency review that this proposal went 

12 through and the SBA, in fact, was on the 

13 interagency call that we do for every 

14 rulemaking that we do that goes through the 

15 Office of Management and Budget. So the SBA 

16 actually has read this proposal and has 

17 represented the small business concerns on 

18 this rule. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Ellis. 

20 MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig again. I'm 

21 new to this evidently. But what you're 

22 saying is, what it seems like we're saying is 
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1 that we're going to unfairly impact small 

2 businesses and the SBA says that's okay and 

3 we're going to go ahead and do it. Did I 

4 read that right? 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I don't think 

6 that's what was said. That may be your 

7 interpretation of it. That's not what I just 

8 heard a moment ago. 

9 MR. CRAIG: What did you hear? 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I heard Jon 

11 Cymbalsky say that the SBA represented the 

12 concerns of small businesses. 

13 MR. CRAIG: Yes, I understand that, 

14 but the documents here state it's going to 

15 unfairly affect small businesses. And what 

16 we're really saying is the SBA is agreeing 

17 with that? 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Well, we're 

19 getting your comment loud and clear. 

20 MR. CRAIG: I just wanted to make 

21 sure it was on the record. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael Kido. 
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1 MR. KIDO: Just one last follow-up, 

2 there is a provision in the statute that 

3 provides for a two-year extension of the 

4 three-year projected compliance date and 

5 that's one of the things that's sort of a 

6 rare option that's available to the Agency, 

7 so when everyone is preparing their written 

8 comments and wants to explain some of the 

9 technical difficulties or complexities that 

10 are involved here, it's certainly a factor 

11 that we can take into account in deciding 

12 when the compliance date actually should be 

13 for this particular role. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

15 Michael, that's helpful. 

16 Fred? 

17 MR. MINELLI: I just want to follow 

18 up with what Ellis had to say about the 

19 additional costs and I think by definition 

20 every manufacturer on the panel side, every 

21 one of us would be small business. 

22 Has DOE looked at the cost of the 
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1 ASTM 518 which is the current requirement and 

2 is virtually free, done by the foam 

3 suppliers? But the new testing, there's a 

4 great deal of testing that's going to be 

5 required there, a great deal of costs is 

6 going to be required there. 

7 And again, panels do not consume 

8 energy. Panels are just R-value. So why 

9 couldn't we calculate R-values, overall R10 values or just establish an R-value that's 

11 one point higher than it is now which is all 

12 you're going to get out of this testing 

13 anyway? It seems like an awful lot of 

14 additional costs for the small manufacturers 

15 which is all of us. Additional costs to get 

16 absolutely no more than one R. I don't 

17 understand the process. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

19 you. 

20 Jim. 

21 MR. KINSER: I want to agree with 

22 Fred on that statement. He's right on the 
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1 money there, but I would ask the enforcement 

2 to consider that -- are we talking about just 

3 getting certification or companies like mine 

4 following the regulation because I think all 

5 of us are following the regulations as 

6 they're written. It's just whether or not we 

7 can find that company to do the certification 

8 that Fred is talking about. How fair is that 

9 to small business? I ask you to consider 

10 that. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

12 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. I 

13 want to clarify some terminology. So we're 

14 not requiring companies to obtain 

15 certifications. Companies have to certify to 

16 us that your products are compliant with our 

17 standards. So that's the requirement. We 

18 don't require companies to obtain 

19 certifications from a company like AHRI or a 

20 different agency. So I just want to be clear 

21 that's what we're talking about. So we would 

22 require possibly additional certification 
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1 requirements if we were to break down the 

2 refrigeration units as described before and 

3 that would require something different. 

4 Now from an enforcement point of 

5 view, we do follow-up beyond making 

6 manufacturers certify to us. We also then 

7 test products to ensure that they are being 

8 manufactured in compliance with our standards 

9 and that's also part of our enforcement 

10 process. So it's a two-stage process here. 

11 MR. KINSER: How are you going to 

12 test it? Because he's just saying that 

13 nobody here can do the test. How are you 

14 going to test it? 

15 MR. RAWALD: Right, so we are 

16 currently working on how we're going to test 

17 these things. Obviously, the test procedure 

18 is not in effect at the moment, so we're not 

19 testing at the moment. 

20 MR. KINSER: Let me know because I 

21 want to use them, too. 

22 MR. RAWALD: I understand. I 
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1 understand. So I understand your comments 

2 and we'll definitely take them into 

3 consideration. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: David. 

5 MR. GRIFE: David Grife, Arctic 

6 Industries. The small business is so 

7 important I think we also forget the entire 

8 pipeline, the stakeholders involved. Many of 

9 us here sell to small business. Our impact 

10 is their impact. Right now I would say many 

11 of our customers have no idea what is 

12 happening in this room. Many of the 

13 consultants who affect our business, many of 

14 the end users and dealers that are all part 

15 of the supply chain, many of them are small 

16 businesses as well. So we really need to 

17 look at this much more than just us, but all 

18 of our customers because every impact here is 

19 going to impact all of them as well. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Jon. 

21 MR. McHUGH: This is going to Fred's 

22 comments and it would be interesting to hear 
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1 what the approach would be from DOE in terms 

2 of some kind of calculated approach that 

3 allows someone like Fred to get a calculation 

4 of U-factor for the foam and a calculation -- 

5 measured U-factor of the foam, measured U6 factor of his framing components and then 

7 being able to either do an overall U-factor 

8 calculation just like we do for buildings or 

9 some sort of deemed allowance that his 

10 framing members have to have U-factors of X 

11 or something like that. So I think there's a 

12 couple of different ways to solve this 

13 without necessarily testing the whole 

14 component. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred, follow 

16 on. 

17 MR. MINELLI: Jon, I agree one 

18 hundred percent. We can calculate those 

19 overall U-values and we do that now. It 

20 would be a much better, less expensive 

21 process than trying to conduct tests that no 

22 one knows how to run yet. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs. 

2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs and 

3 I just want to suggest that if there's a 

4 little bit of collaborative effort, we don't 

5 need to completely reinvent the wheel each 

6 time. For over a decade, we've had a 

7 successful process with National Fenestration 

8 Rating Council for methods to get the overall 

9 performance of what you might consider a 

10 transparent door, otherwise known as a 

11 window. And it seems to me that with some 

12 investment by DOE and simulation engines, 

13 analogous to the alternative energy 

14 determination methods that were discussed 

15 extensively over the summer, that the 

16 compliance burden, the certification burden 

17 in particular can be made de minimis, 

18 although everyone certainly everyone would 

19 remain at risk of verification test if it 

20 turned out that this product did not perform 

21 as the simulation to the approved program 

22 predicted it would. That's it. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert. 

2 MR. WILKINS: I think that's a good 

3 suggestion and we've got several issues 

4 related to the compliance date, but I'd like 

5 to come back to the issue of the 

6 refrigeration system. If we bifurcate that 

7 into condensing units and evaporators then we 

8 haven't even started that and we only have 

9 until April. So I'd urge DOE to consider 

10 moving forward with the larger walk-in cooler 

11 and freezer rulemaking. Do that. You made a 

12 commitment to the AGs, do that. But then 

13 open up and delve into the area where we're 

14 going to need more time and that's a 

15 condensing unit and the unit coolers and take 

16 the time that we need to get it right. 

17 I'm not trying to defer that. Set 

18 up a supplemental NOPR, for example. Focus 

19 in on that issue and take the time to do that 

20 right. Thank you. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We have a 

22 comment from an individual who is listening 
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1 in via the web. This is from Kenny Baum who 

2 says "If we build the apparatus as outlined 

3 in ASTM C 1363, who has to certify us so that 

4 we can run the panel testing for our 

5 customers?" 

6 Fred? 

7 MR. MINELLI: I would like to 

8 comment on that. Fred Minelli. The ASTM 

9 would have to certify them. They would have 

10 to become a certified ASTM laboratory to test 

11 under an ASTM. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

13 MR. MINELLI: Thank you. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Guy? 

15 MR. SENTER: Our lab that tested to 

16 C518 is certified by NVLAP, N-V-L-A-P, I 

17 believe. Once this rule gets passed, I'm 

18 assuming several labs will start 

19 investigating the standard and start offering 

20 it. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. All of 

22 these comments seem entirely germane, but I'm 
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1 getting worried. We really need to keep 

2 moving along here, folks, okay? So I don't 

3 want to diminish anyone's potential for 

4 comment, but we need to keep chugging along. 

5 So I'm going to take it then to Laura. 

6 MS. DEGITZ: Good morning. I'm 

7 going to talk about the market and technology 

8 and screening analysis. 

9 As you can see, this is one of the 

10 first steps in the NOPR rulemaking phase. 

11 DOE used catalogue and existing component 

12 performance data to characterize the market 

13 for this equipment. However, this is a 

14 newly-regulated market, as we're all aware, 

15 and the proposed metrics have not been 

16 previously used by this market. So the 

17 Department is requesting that interested 

18 parties submit performance data preferably 

19 based on the proposed metrics. I realize 

20 that you might not have this data with you 

21 today, but as it's been stated, we would 

22 greatly appreciate written comments with this 
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1 data. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Maybe we can 

3 get an indication. Do many of you have this 

4 performance data that you can offer up? Or 

5 is DOE making a request that will not be 

6 fulfilled? 

7 It's not encouraging the level of response 

8 I'm getting here in the room. 

9 Ellis. 

10 MR. CRAIG: Are you talking about 

11 the testing done under the existing 

12 standards? Or are you talking about the 

13 standards that we're proposing? 

14 MS. DEGITZ: The proposed. 

15 MR. CRAIG: Obviously, we don't have 

16 that because we don't have testing firms to 

17 be able to perform that, so we wouldn't have 

18 that. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: But I guess -

20 - can you say why your expectation was they 

21 might have some data? 

22 MS. DEGITZ: As manufacturers, we 
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1 would hope that you would have some -- at 

2 least some performance data. If it's not in 

3 the proposed metrics, we would accept any 

4 information that you could submit to us. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis. 

6 MR. CRAIG: Everyone here should 

7 have data testing done on -- like the 

8 insulation that they have in their products. 

9 So that should be available. That wouldn't 

10 be too big a problem to get to because a lot 

11 of times it's third party. It's not us. 

12 It's the people we buy from has that testing 

13 data. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 

15 MR. CRAIG: So that would be 

16 accessible. There's only a handful of those, 

17 so if you talk to those, they would give you 

18 all the -- we can get all that spec for you. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's what I 

20 wanted to clarify. That's why I sent it back 

21 to Laura. That's what the Department is 

22 hoping to get from you all and hopefully in 
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1 your written comments that data can be made 

2 available. 

3 So then Laura, keep going. 

4 MS. DEGITZ: As part of the market 

5 analysis, DOE broke each of the main 

6 components into separate equipment classes. 

7 For walk-in doors, DOE proposed to establish 

8 a standard for display doors which is 

9 designed for product display and is at least 

10 75 percent glass or another transparent 

11 material; also a freight door which is 

12 obviously not a display door and is at least 

13 4 feet wide by 8 feet tall and a passage door 

14 which was proposed to be defined as a door 

15 that is neither freight nor display. 

16 For each of these door types, DOE is 

17 also proposing separate classes for freezer 

18 versus cooler applications. And the 

19 Department requests comment on these 

20 definitions. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments on 

22 the definitions, particularly Ellis, please. 
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1 MR. CRAIG: I have a question. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Turn the 

3 microphone on. 

4 MR. CRAIG: I'm sorry. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 

6 MR. CRAIG: I felt like I was 

7 talking to her. 

8 (Laughter.) 

9 One question I have is when we talk 

10 about doors, we're thinking about a door the 

11 person opens the door and walks in. In the 

12 walk-in business, there's also reach-in doors 

13 which are not the glass doors, but they're 

14 just a small two by two door that's made in 

15 the side of a walk-in which really has 

16 different parameters than the other door 

17 because -- are we requiring in your 

18 definition that now every different size of 

19 that door has to be tested? 

20 MS. DEGITZ: With these proposed 

21 definitions that would fall under a passage 

22 door. If you could submit data about the 
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1 market share of these reach-in doors and 

2 maybe characterize them some more in what 

3 sizes they would be, that would be helpful to 

4 the Department. 

5 MR. CRAIG: So, on a freight door 

6 then every size door you manufacture needs to 

7 be tested? 

8 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. 

9 So our certification requirements are based 

10 upon the idea of a basic model. And so 

11 models within a basic model can differ in 

12 size as long as it doesn't affect the energy 

13 consumption characteristics. 

14 MR. CRAIG: That's fine. 

15 MR. RAWALD: Okay. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay? Fred. 

17 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I guess 

18 I would like to back up on doors, back up to 

19 the panel side of it also because doors are 

20 basically a panel with gasket and heaters and 

21 whatever. So if we're trying to collar the 

22 energy used by the door, it's not the door 
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1 panel itself. It's going to be the heater, 

2 if there is a heater and if that is what DOE 

3 is after I would like to suggest on doors 

4 also that we calculate R-value, ASTM C 518 of 

5 that door and then calculate the electrical 

6 draw for the heaters if heaters are used. If 

7 there are no heaters, then would there be a 

8 need for any kind of calculation for the door 

9 other than R-value? 

10 MR. RAWALD: We understand those 

11 comments and we'll take into consideration. 

12 I think they're valid. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

14 MS. DEGITZ: I have a slight follow15 up to that comment. So are you proposing 

16 that there would be two separate metrics for 

17 the door then like an energy use and an R18 value metric? Or are you proposing some type 

19 of combined metric that incorporates both of 

20 those qualities? 

21 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I'm 

22 just proposing something different than what 
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1 we're trying to do now, that the door is 

2 basically a panel with a different type of 

3 edging so that whatever we look at in energy 

4 usage should affect that edging and not the 

5 door. The door is just another panel. Thank 

6 you. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie 

8 Stephens. 

9 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, Charlie 

10 Stephens. As I understand it, the door 

11 metric is a combination of the refrigeration 

12 load created by the heat loss through the 

13 door plus any electrical components 

14 associated with the door now, daily energy 

15 use and that there's an NFRC essentially 

16 procedure for calculating that. I don't 

17 think there's any problem here from what 

18 -- I don't hear any differences in what 

19 people are saying, so it doesn't seem all 

20 that difficult to do. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Final 

22 comments? 
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1 Laura. 

2 MS. DEGITZ: So for walk-in panels, 

3 DOE is proposing three equipment classes, 

4 structural cooler panels, structural freezer 

5 panels, and freezer floor panels. A 

6 structural panel would be one that is used to 

7 construct the wall or a ceiling of a walk-in 

8 and a floor panel, obviously a panel used to 

9 construct the floor of a walk-in freezer. 

10 There's no comment box, but are 

11 there any comments on these proposed 

12 equipment classes? 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Harmon. 

14 MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis. In the 

15 printed comments there or in the whole 

16 paperwork, you stated that most floor panels 

17 have structural members and probably 85 

18 percent of the floor panels that we build 

19 don't need structural members because they're 

20 going in restaurants. Well, we build a 

21 superfloor, AmeriTuff is our name for it, 

22 that has that extra structural members, but 
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1 that's under 15 percent of what we build. So 

2 most of our floor panels are very similar or 

3 are the same R-value, U-values, what have you 

4 as the structural panels. So I'm not sure 

5 why we necessarily have to have this total 

6 separation because they're separate classes 

7 within floor panels. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: How would you 

9 -- this gets modified. 

10 Fred. 

11 Pardon me, I misspoke. Harmon, can 

12 you say how this should be modified or should 

13 we turn it to Fred? 

14 MR. LEWIS: I am just saying within 

15 the structural floors there's going to be 

16 some differentiation because there's a true 

17 structural floor, but then there's all the 

18 other floors. So we'll provide a comment for 

19 that. But I don't think you want to have the 

20 rating on all your floors have to be rating 

21 on our worst energy efficient floor that you 

22 build ten percent of the time. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred, and if 

2 there's some actual words that would modify 

3 what's here in the slide, that would be 

4 helpful. 

5 Fred? 

6 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I may 

7 have misunderstood what Harmon said, but 

8 there are different R-value minimums for 

9 floors and walls and that's not what you're 

10 questioning? Okay. Thank you. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, anybody 

12 else commenting on this? Okay, we're moving 

13 on. 

14 MS. DEGITZ: For refrigeration 

15 systems, DOE is proposing separate equipment 

16 classes for medium temperature versus low 

17 temperature systems. A low temperature 

18 system would be at or below 32 degrees 

19 Fahrenheit and medium temp would be above. 

20 We're also proposing separate 

21 classes for dedicated versus multiplex 

22 condensing systems. A dedicated condensing 
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1 system has only one condensing unit serving a 

2 walk-in which may have one or more unit 

3 coolers. A multiplex system consists of a 

4 unit cooler going into a compressor rack or a 

5 condensing system which would also serve 

6 other pieces of equipment. In the multiplex 

7 case, DOE proposes only to cover the unit 

8 cooler. 

9 For dedicated condensing systems, 

10 DOE is also proposing to have separate 

11 equipment classes for indoor versus outdoor 

12 applications. This is because outdoor 

13 systems are exposed to a wider range of 

14 temperatures and are rated differently 

15 according to the test procedure. 

16 Also, dedicated condensing systems 

17 will be broken down into small and large 

18 systems. A small system is at or below 9,000 

19 BTUs per hour. And this is because smaller 

20 systems tend to be less efficient. They also 

21 have fewer compressors that they can select 

22 from. 
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1 Are there any questions from the 

2 refrigeration equipment classes? 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We'll start 

4 here with Mike. 

5 MR. STRAUB: This is Mike Straub. 

6 The breakdown of the small versus large 

7 systems, I don't think DOE looked at a broad 

8 enough range of capacities. Fifty-four 

9 thousand is pretty small considering up to 

10 3,000 square feet when you get up to 190,000 

11 BTUs in that range. When you get much larger 

12 size equipment, the condenser surface gets 

13 that much larger and so the air mover portion 

14 of the energy consumption gets much larger, 

15 so I think you need more graduations. 

16 MS. DEGITZ: Do you have specific 

17 graduations that you would recommend? 

18 MR. STRAUB: Yes, I can do that. 

19 MS. DEGITZ: That would be great. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That would be 

21 greater. 

22 Robert? 
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1 MR. WILKINS: Just to point out this 

2 might be moot if we go to the other approach 

3 of bifurcating the thing. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. DOE 

5 needs to be covered. Right. 

6 MS. DEGITZ: Rebecca has a comment. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Use the 

8 microphone. Thank you. 

9 MS. LEGETT: If we do bifurcate, can 

10 you suggest classes, equipment classes and 

11 equipment breakdown types in that event? 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

13 Robert? 

14 MR. WILKINS: Yes, I think we could. 

15 MR. STRAUB: This is Mike Straub, 

16 yes, we could. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks, Mike. 

18 Jon. 

19 MR. McHUGH: So rather than having 

20 dedicated condensing versus multiplex 

21 condensing, we might look at the history with 

22 the commercial refrigeration equipment 
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1 proceeding and look at the concept of self2 contained versus remote condensing. That 

3 would address splitting the unit cooler from 

4 the condensing unit when they're separate. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We have a 

6 comment from an individual joining us via the 

7 web. And this is Jeff Van -- and Jeff, I'm 

8 unclear about how to say your last name, it's 

9 Sloun, perhaps. "Has DOE considered using 

10 manufacturers' third party thermal testing 

11 results in a thermal performance calculator 

12 such as WUFI for compliance?" 

13 Doug? 

14 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. 

15 Not that I'm aware of at the moment, but if 

16 he wants to provide more additional 

17 information on that, his comments will 

18 certainly be considered. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

20 Jeff. So send in those comments and describe 

21 the utility and benefit. 

22 MR. RAWALD: That would be helpful. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Fred? 

2 Harmon. Harmon. 

3 MR. LEWIS: Yes, Harmon Lewis. We 

4 sell about 30 percent of our refrigeration 

5 systems with pre-charged interconnecting 

6 lines. Sometimes the condensing unit sits on 

7 top of the walk-in indoors. Sometimes it's 

8 outdoors up to 50 feet away. So it's a 

9 package system coming out of our factory with 

10 quick couples. We obviously know the 

11 efficiency of that because we built the whole 

12 system. So this needs to not just because 

13 the condensing unit is away from the walk-in, 

14 it doesn't have to fall under a separate 

15 category. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Jon. 

17 MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond. We have 

18 a concern for a particular scenario. Let's 

19 say if there's a manufacturer who makes a 

20 unit cooler, that unit cooler model XYZ could 

21 be used in an indoor system and an outdoor 

22 system and then it would have specifications 
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1 for two different metrics. It would have to 

2 meet standards for two separate metrics for 

3 these two different classes. So that 

4 manufacturer may be designed -- specific that 

5 unit cooler designed for an outdoor system, 

6 but it could also be used as an indoor system 

7 depending upon how the contractor assembles 

8 the system. So that's just a concern we 

9 would like to have considered. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And in 

11 writing. Final comments on this segment? 

12 Okay. 

13 MS. DEGITZ: There are three 

14 equipment classes that DOE is proposing not 

15 to amend standards or propose new standards 

16 for. These include cooler floor panels, 

17 display panels, and blast freezer 

18 refrigeration systems. DOE found that most 

19 walk-in coolers are built on a concrete slab. 

20 Additionally, EPCA did not propose R-value 

21 requirement for cooler floor panels. 

22 Following this structure, DOE is not 
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1 proposing a new standard for cooler floor 

2 panels. 

3 A display panel may be a type of 

4 panel that you would see in a beer cave, 

5 basically a big window, as Harvey described. 

6 And takes up a very small percentage of the 

7 market. And DOE found that there would be 

8 extremely limited savings potential. 

9 Also, blast freezers make up a small 

10 percentage of the walk-in market. And DOE is 

11 tentatively proposing to apply the same 

12 standards to blast freezer refrigeration 

13 systems as to storage freezer refrigeration 

14 systems unless the Department finds that 

15 blast freezers would have difficulty 

16 complying with DOE's standards. 

17 Are there any comments on these 

18 exclusions? 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Read the 

20 comment box, "tentative decision not to 

21 propose standards for cooler floor panels, 

22 display panels, or blast freezer 
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1 refrigeration systems." So let's try to be 

2 specific on these comments. 

3 Guy? 

4 MR. SENTER: Blast freezers. 

5 There's also blast chillers that are on the 

6 market. Blast freezers can be larger 

7 devices. Blast chillers are typically six by 

8 four feet. And so I'm a little curious if 

9 you in your market analysis were not able to 

10 differentiate or didn't realize there was a 

11 differentiation. So if -- and if you are not 

12 going to regulate blast chillers, please add 

13 that. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do you want 

15 to make a qualitative statement about whether 

16 this is a good idea not to propose standards 

17 for these? 

18 MR. SENTER: Oh no. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike. 

20 MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub, quick 

21 comment. Is there clarity with respect to 

22 definition as to what a blast freezer is or 
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1 is that left up to the interpretation of 

2 whoever is making that determination? 

3 MS. DEGITZ: Rebecca might be better 

4 able to answer this question. 

5 MS. LEGETT: Yes. We don't have a 

6 definition for blast freezer now. If you'd 

7 like to suggest -- if you'd like them to be 

8 differentiated and you'd like to suggest a 

9 definition, and can help DOE better 

10 differentiate that, that would be good. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

12 Mr. McHugh: California's Title 24 

13 building standard, I believe has a definition 

14 of blast freezer. It has to do with CFM per 

15 ton or something like that. My expectation 

16 is that the energy consumption is different 

17 because of the fan energy. And if DOE -- so 

18 it may make sense for DOE not to regulate 

19 this class of equipment. If that's the case, 

20 I believe the State of California would be 

21 very interested in DOE identifying that blast 

22 coolers are not regulated and therefore not 
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1 preempted from state regulation. 

2 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. I 

3 would like to suggest that a definition from 

4 the industry folks would be helpful at least 

5 for us to consider. So if you do have one 

6 you do want to suggest, we would consider it. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred. 

8 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I think 

9 the current standard really does define those 

10 products out of the standard because these 

11 are -- this standard is designed for storage, 

12 food storage and what we're talking about are 

13 rapid pulldowns, blast freezers, quick 

14 chillers, things -- equipment that moves, 

15 changes temperature very quickly. They're 

16 not designed for storage at all. You put it 

17 in, bring it down. It's gone. Then you go 

18 put it in the freezer. But it's not a walk19 in and it's not designed for storage. I 

20 think we actually say that. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So do I take 

22 it that's an endorsement of DOE's approach? 
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1 MR. MINELLI: To eliminate them, 

2 yes. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. I 

4 was searching for that. 

5 Harmon? 

6 MR. LEWIS: Yes, Harmon Lewis. 

7 Similarly, the blast chillers that we sell, 

8 you're going to come from 140 degrees down to 

9 45 degrees in two hours. It's not food 

10 storage at all once it gets to 45, they push 

11 it into our walk-in cooler. So it's totally 

12 separate. But this should be also amended to 

13 show not only blast freezers, but blast 

14 chillers. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Joanna Mauer. 

16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I think 

17 it's an important concept and what I'm 

18 hearing is that the regulation is aimed at 

19 storage and these other devices, the rapid 

20 pulldown blast chillers, blast freezers, 

21 things like that are manufacturing equipment. 

22 They're manufacturing process equipment. 
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1 They are not storage equipment and therefore 

2 I think are excluded under the legislation 

3 automatically and need not concern us. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

5 Joanna. 

6 MS. MAUER: Laura, could you please 

7 restate? I got a little confused about what 

8 DOE's proposal is regarding blast freezers. 

9 MS. DEGITZ: So for blast freezers, 

10 DOE is proposing to apply the same standards 

11 to blast freezers as to storage freezer 

12 systems. I think Rebecca might be able to 

13 better clarify what the Department intends. 

14 MS. LEGETT: So that's what we've 

15 proposed, what Laura said. What we have also 

16 considered, I believe we've considered not 

17 covering them if DOE finds that blast freezer 

18 refrigeration systems would have difficulty 

19 complying with the standards which is what 

20 I'm hearing from several of you. So there 

21 are several avenues that DOE could take. SO 

22 please make your recommendation. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

2 MR. McHUGH: This is really more of 

3 a question than a statement and maybe some of 

4 the panel manufacturers can describe their 

5 thinking. For display panels, is the 

6 rationale behind not covering display panels 

7 is that there's a large fraction of 

8 structural elements in there and therefore 

9 they would have a lower overall U-factor? Is 

10 that the sort of intention? 

11 MS. DEGITZ: The rationale is solely 

12 because we thought they made up a very small 

13 percentage of the market. And there was very 

14 limited savings potential. 

15 MR. McHUGH: And for the folks who 

16 are panel manufacturers, do you folks 

17 normally make these components and the 

18 display panels? 

19 MR. LEWIS: No, the large windows we 

20 would buy, we wouldn't make if that's what 

21 you're talking about. 

22 MR. McHUGH: Thank you. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's go on 

2 to the next slide. 

3 MS. DEGITZ: DOE then performed a 

4 market assessment in which it develops a 

5 preliminary list of technologies that could 

6 improve the efficiency of a walk-in. All 

7 these technologies are listed in Chapter 3 of 

8 the TSD. 

9 Then it performed a screening 

10 analysis in which it screened out all the 

11 technologies that were either not 

12 technologically feasible; not practicable to 

13 manufacture, install, and service; had 

14 adverse impacts on equipment utility or 

15 availability to customers; and had adverse 

16 impact on health or safety. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments 

18 here? 

19 Robert. 

20 MR. WILKINS: Just a quick comment. 

21 Probably on target, but I just remind people 

22 that by looking at steady state operation it 
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1 automatically forces you to discard things 

2 like adaptive controls that enable the system 

3 to adapt to weather changes and time of use, 

4 time of day changes which can save a lot of 

5 energy, but doesn't affect the rating point, 

6 tremendous amount of energy that doesn't 

7 affecting the rating point. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

9 you. Additional comments here? 

10 We're due for a break. Let's take a 

11 break. It's about -- I'd like to say it's a 

12 little past 10:50 which means I'd like to 

13 have us back here to resume at 5 minutes 

14 after 11. 

15 You must wear this badge when you're 

16 walking around in the Forrestal Building and 

17 there are restrooms on both ends of the hall. 

18 I think we're a little bit behind 

19 schedule, if not more than a little behind 

20 schedule. So we're going to press on and 

21 work probably to at least 12:30 or maybe a 

22 little later to try and catch up before we go 
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1 to lunch. So if that means you need to get 

2 something to eat, go quickly to the Dunkin' 

3 Donuts or wherever you're going, but go 

4 quickly so we can resume at 5 minutes after 

5 11. 

6 For those of you who are not 

7 familiar, down on the ground floor, hang a 

8 left and there is a Dunkin' Donuts and a 

9 Subway shop there. Go quickly. Go quickly. 

10 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

11 matter went off the record at 10:53 a.m. and 

12 resumed at 11:06 a.m.) 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We are going 

14 to proceed now where we left off with 

15 engineering analysis and we're going to hear 

16 from Rebecca Legett. Please take your seats 

17 and stop talking. 

18 Harvey, I'm going to come over there 

19 in a minute. 

20 (Laughter.) 

21 He thinks I'm fooling. 

22 Okay, Rebecca. 
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1 MS. LEGETT: Hi, everyone. Thanks 

2 again for everyone who is here today and 

3 everyone listening in on the webinar. Right 

4 now I'm going to cover the engineering 

5 analysis. And I'm going to go over the 

6 methodology at kind of a high level and 

7 hopefully give you all as much opportunity as 

8 possible to make comments and ask questions. 

9 One thing that would be really 

10 helpful in this section is we have been 

11 talking about several of these concepts at a 

12 high level. Is my mic picking up? 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 

14 MS. LEGETT: Okay. We've been 

15 talking about many of these concepts -- to 

16 the extent that you can make specific 

17 comments about what DOE should do from a 

18 practical level, we've covered a lot of these 

19 concepts, but then now what should DOE do 

20 about it? How will this affect our analysis? 

21 That would be very helpful for us to know. 

22 So again at a high level, the 
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1 engineering methodology was to really get at 

2 what is the cost and energy of more efficient 

3 technologies for this equipment. So first we 

4 determined representative units within each 

5 equipment class. Laura just covered the 

6 equipment classes. 

7 Define characteristics of the 

8 baseline for each class, as well as design 

9 options which can be implemented to reduce 

10 energy use or improve efficiency. 

11 Then we modeled the equipment energy 

12 performance and cost. And finally, we 

13 developed cost-efficiency curves that 

14 illustrate the relationship between cost, 

15 manufacturing cost and efficiency. And I'll 

16 show you a couple of examples later on in the 

17 presentation. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis? 

19 MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. This is a 

20 question I'm having because you said you 

21 developed the energy curves or developed the 

22 cost efficiency curves. In that cost, you're 
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1 looking at the cost of the improvements? 

2 MS. LEGETT: Yes, we're looking at 

3 the cost of both the baseline model and 

4 improvements that you make to that model. 

5 MR. CRAIG: Thank you. 

6 MS. LEGETT: So within each 

7 equipment class, we picked a few different 

8 units that we thought would cover the market. 

9 We've already gotten a few comments to this 

10 effect. But here are some of the 

11 characteristics that we tried to cover. 

12 For panels and doors, we analyzed a 

13 range of different sizes. For non-display 

14 doors, we assumed a small viewing window in 

15 the door. For refrigeration systems, we 

16 analyzed systems ranging in capacity from 

17 6,000 BTUs per hour to 96,000. We've heard 

18 some comments that maybe that should be even 

19 larger. So we'd appreciate written comments 

20 on these sizes and whether we are adequately 

21 covering the market. 

22 In response to a comment or several 
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1 comments, in fact, on the preliminary 

2 analysis, we analyzed a few different types 

3 of compressors for our refrigeration system. 

4 Hermetic reciprocating, scroll, and semi5 hermetic. 

6 So now I'll open it up for comments 

7 on the representative sizes, the 

8 representative units, particularly whether 

9 we're missing anything, whether we need to 

10 look at other types of units. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments 

12 here. 

13 MS. LEGETT: And again, we'd also 

14 appreciate those in written form, if you 

15 don't have it on you. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 

17 Harmon. 

18 MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis. The non19 display doors, each having a small viewing 

20 window, we probably -- less than 20 percent 

21 of the passage doors that we would sell would 

22 have a window. So I don't know that it's 
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1 going to throw out anything, but it's not the 

2 norm. It's more the exception. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

4 That's helpful. Additional comments? Okay. 

5 MS. LEGETT: Moving on to baseline 

6 units. The baseline model typically, not 

7 always, but typically, represents the most 

8 common baseline model, relatively low 

9 efficiency in comparison to the market. They 

10 were all assumed to meet the existing energy 

11 conservation standards in EPCA, so for 

12 instance all the refrigeration systems we 

13 analyzed with ECM or with evaporator fan 

14 motors of less than one horsepower, those 

15 were all ECM motors. We didn't analyze 

16 anything else. 

17 The baseline serves as a reference 

18 point from which DOE can measure impacts due 

19 to these amended standards. So this is 

20 probably the more relevant slide to you all. 

21 This is how we characterize the baseline 

22 units. Three and a half inches of 
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1 polyurethane foam for structural cooler 

2 panels and freezer floor panels. Four inches 

3 of foam for structural freezer panels. 

4 Several characteristics of display 

5 doors, again, we picked characteristics that 

6 all complied with the requirements in EPCA. 

7 For refrigeration systems, again, 

8 compliance with EPCA. We had a comment on 

9 TD, temperature difference earlier, so this 

10 is what we assumed in the baseline, but we 

11 would appreciate comments on any of these 

12 assumptions and whether you think they should 

13 be different. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: This is 

15 important, this stuff. Let's get as much 

16 comment as we can get here. 

17 Guy. 

18 MR. SENTER: Okay, for the non19 display doors, once again I'd like to direct 

20 the DOE's attention to the door cap, door 

21 frame interface there where the periphery and 

22 I notice your evaluation says nothing about 
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1 the heater core. So I think the majority of 

2 the heat gain through the door is along that 

3 periphery. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

5 you. 

6 Mike. 

7 MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub. I want to 

8 ask if the DOE would share with us the 

9 modeling tool that was used, as well as the 

10 data sets for the baseline as well as the 

11 technology, the trial standard levels so that 

12 we can go verify our calculations, agree with 

13 your calculations and see if there's been any 

14 errors in either our calculations or yours. 

15 MS. LEGETT: Thank you. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Pardon me, 

17 Jon. 

18 MR. LEMMOND: I have a question. I 

19 was wondering if there's any tests conducted 

20 to validate your modeled energy use? And if 

21 so if that would be publicly available? Were 

22 there any tests to validate the energy 
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1 performance of the baseline? 

2 MS. LEGETT: For? 

3 MR. LEMMOND: For refrigeration 

4 systems specifically, but I'd be curious 

5 about all of the components, all the baseline 

6 components. 

7 MS. LEGETT: As of right now, there 

8 has been some limited testing conducted of 

9 refrigeration systems. We haven't covered 

10 all the classes. 

11 MR. LEMMOND: Were those test 

12 results compared to the modeled results? 

13 MS. LEGETT: I'll have to get back 

14 to you on that. 

15 MR. LEMMOND: Thank you. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: David. 

17 MR. GRIFE: David Grife, Arctic 

18 Industries. I just want a clarification of 

19 panels. So you're assuming there's two types 

20 of panels. One is a foamed in place with a 

21 wood frame and the other one is a solid core 

22 foam that's a minimum of 3.5 inches for a 
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1 cooler and 4 for a freezer, is that what 

2 you're saying there? 

3 MS. LEGETT: We did consider both 

4 the foamed in place and the solid core type 

5 panels, if that's what you're asking. 

6 MR. GRIFE: I'm not really sure how 

7 -- I'm reading what's written so I'm not 

8 really clear. You're saying there's a 

9 baseline of panels. So you're defining there 

10 are two types of panels there. Is that's 

11 what that's stating? 

12 MS. LEGETT: Which two types of 

13 panels? 

14 MR. GRIFE: A foamed in place 

15 polyurethane with a wood frame and is that 

16 different from a 3-inch foam for structural? 

17 MS. LEGETT: I'll turn that over to 

18 Laura. 

19 MS. DEGITZ: I might be able to help 

20 clarify. So we're trying to describe three 

21 different types of panels here. The ones we 

22 went over earlier, the structural freezer, 
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1 structural cooler, and the freezer floor. A 

2 structural freezer panel is four inches of 

3 foam. It has a wood frame and we're using 

4 polyurethane. The cooler and freezer floor 

5 panel has 3.5 inches of foam also wood frame. 

6 And as we described earlier, the freezer 

7 floor panel has some additional structural 

8 materials in there as well. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So how many 

10 total panels is that? 

11 MS. DEGITZ: Three. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: But are you 

13 stating then the only panel is a foam in 

14 place panel? 

15 MS. DEGITZ: Yes, we only evaluated 

16 foam in place polyurethane. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: As the 

18 baseline unit. 

19 MS. DEGITZ: As the baseline. 

20 MR. GRIFE: Well, there are some 

21 manufacturers who also use solid core foam as 

22 well as foam in place. 
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1 MS. DEGITZ: We're aware of that and 

2 we discussed that in the notice. There's 

3 more details in there. We recognize there 

4 are other types of foam and we determined 

5 that the polyurethane -- we thought that the 

6 polyurethane was the majority of the market. 

7 MR. GRIFE: And therefore the other 

8 is not acceptable? 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No, no, no. 

10 MR. RAWALD: If I could jump in here 

11 real quick. This is Doug Rawald. First of 

12 all, our notice is not meant to imply there's 

13 only one type of foam that can be used by 

14 manufacturers. We base our assumptions upon 

15 testing of a polyurethane model based upon an 

16 assumption that that represents the lion's 

17 share of the market. If an assumption is 

18 inaccurate and if folks disagree with that, 

19 we ask that you and your comments explain to 

20 us how you think the market actually is 

21 represented differently. 

22 So if polystyrene, for example, 
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1 extruded or expanded, is a larger percent of 

2 the market than we anticipate -- or we 

3 assume, please tell us that so we can change 

4 our assumptions accordingly. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Laura, do you 

6 want to add on here? Laura? 

7 MS. DEGITZ: Just to reinforce on 

8 that. This is just the baseline that we 

9 evaluated. If a panel that has a different 

10 type of core foam meets the standard, that is 

11 perfectly acceptable to use in the market. 

12 It's just the energy standard. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon. 

14 MR. LEWIS: Your definition of your 

15 baseline unit being most energy inefficient, 

16 I think some of those would apply, but it's 

17 not the most common panel is a foam in place 

18 urethane with a wood frame. Probably 85 

19 percent of foam in place manufacturers don't 

20 use a wood frame or a hard rail. 

21 So again, I'm not sure where you 

22 stepped from that, but you've not started 
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1 with the most common. You started with an 

2 energy inefficient one, yes, but you could 

3 also have started at two inch thickness. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

5 you. 

6 Ellis. 

7 MR. CRAIG: One of my concerns is 

8 that if we use this baseline and it's not 

9 correct as far as what's mostly out there, 

10 then we use this number to calculate how much 

11 money we're saving and how much CO2 we're 

12 cutting away. And so this needs to be right 

13 of what's really out there. If what's out 

14 there is 15 percent more efficient than this 

15 is, then the energy goes down. The energy 

16 goes down, then all of a sudden we're not 

17 saving that much money. So the fourth 

18 category that we pick may be inappropriate 

19 because we calculated this wrong. 

20 I agree with the other manufacturers 

21 in here. That's probably not the significant 

22 amount of panels that are out there that are 
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1 being manufactured that way presently. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred. 

3 Charlie, I'm going to hear from the 

4 manufacturing cluster first. 

5 Fred. 

6 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I just 

7 wanted to comment. I thought initially your 

8 baseline for panels was the current R-value 

9 minimum is 3.5. And why the wood frame is in 

10 there, I don't know. It's obviously causing 

11 some concern in this group. I'm not sure 

12 what that -- we have to -- how do we align 

13 with that baseline? We have to improve on 

14 that? 

15 MS. LEGETT: So the baseline is just 

16 a base. This is just analytical. This is 

17 just part of the analysis. The proposed 

18 standard is what you would be required to 

19 comply with and that builds upon the 

20 baseline. If you're a manufacturer and you 

21 think this doesn't characterize the baseline, 

22 then you can give us a description of what 
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1 the majority of the market is. We've heard 

2 from a few manufacturers. If you're in the 

3 webinar and you're also a manufacturer and 

4 you have a different view, please send that 

5 all to us. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

7 MR. MINELLI: One more comment -- 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Fred, please, 

9 continue. 

10 MR. MINELLI: Typically, the doors 

11 do not have a complete frame. There is 

12 backing of some type, wood or not wood, FRP, 

13 some type of product, but not necessarily 

14 wood frame in a passage door. Sliders are 

15 all different, but not a passage door. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

17 Charlie. 

18 MR. MINELLI: Thank you. 

19 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, 

20 maybe I can recharacterize this and clear up 

21 some confusion of mine and anybody else's. 

22 It's my understanding that the baseline units 
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1 are and this is a little different than a 

2 typical rulemaking that I participate in 

3 because there's already a standard for a lot 

4 of products that would then comprise the 

5 majority of the market like a SEER 13 air 

6 conditioner, you know, that's the majority of 

7 the market and it's the minimum standard. 

8 In this case, what I understood is 

9 that you have a panel here that is kind of 

10 the minimally compliant panel to the 

11 prescriptive standards that are now on the 

12 books, regardless of whether that's the panel 

13 that everybody makes. It's still a minimum 

14 cost, minimally compliant panel that meets 

15 the current letter of the law. Is that 

16 correct? 

17 MS. LEGETT: Yes. 

18 MR. STEPHENS: Okay, thank you. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

20 Charlie. 

21 John Cymbalsky. 

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from 
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1 DOE. And I want to kind of get to Ellis' 

2 question of how -- this is going to be talked 

3 about later in the shipments analysis, but 

4 what Charlie stated is exactly right and then 

5 what happens is we build a shipments model to 

6 say what the market is actually doing. So 

7 the minimally compliant one may or may not 

8 have the biggest market share out there now. 

9 But when we do the arithmetic, we account for 

10 what the market shares are and so that when 

11 we compare levels from the baseline, we get 

12 the math right so that we know that the 

13 energy savings, the dollar savings, the 

14 carbon savings, all fall into what is 

15 actually happening in the market through the 

16 shipments model. We're going to talk about 

17 that at length later this afternoon, but I 

18 just wanted to clarify that now. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

20 MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond. I have a 

21 clarifying question for Doug. I thought I 

22 heard you say that the baseline panel 
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1 performance was built upon test data and I'm 

2 not sure -- I'm confused on whether it was 

3 actually, the energy performance was built on 

4 test data or just an analysis. 

5 MR. RAWALD: I may have misspoke. 

6 So I want to defer to Rebecca on what they 

7 base the baseline analysis on, but we're 

8 definitely basing it upon modeling with the 

9 polyurethane as opposed to the polystyrene. 

10 That's what I was trying to point out there. 

11 MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond. If there 

12 is any test data, again, I would like to 

13 emphasize that we'd like to take a look at 

14 it. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

16 you. Additional comments here? Have we 

17 heard anything else -- have we covered all of 

18 these four panels, display doors, non-display 

19 doors, refrigeration systems? 

20 Harmon. 

21 MR. LEWIS: Since we buy the 

22 condensing units from other people in this 
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1 room like Heat Transfer or Heatcraft, are you 

2 all comfortable with the 25 degree TD on 

3 medium temp. condensers and the 20 degree TD 

4 on freezer condensers? 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike. 

6 MR. STRAUB: I think the numbers are 

7 probably a little bit lower than industry 

8 standard, but I was planning to prepare to 

9 add that to the comments. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

11 you. 

12 Guy? Microphone. 

13 MR. SENTER: Guy Senter. On the 

14 non-display doors again, your calculations 

15 seem to indicate a usage of around 11 watts 

16 for a baseline door, something not much more 

17 than that and our typical cooler doors right 

18 now draw about 1.15 amps. So do the math. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. We're 

20 moving on. 

21 MS. LEGETT: Moving on to design 

22 options. These are technologies that pass 
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1 the screening analysis which we discussed 

2 earlier that manufacturers can use to improve 

3 the rated efficiency or energy consumption. 

4 That's a really important point here. We did 

5 not -- and there's really no practical way 

6 for us to -- consider options that would not 

7 improve the rated efficiency as tested by the 

8 DOE test procedure because the test procedure 

9 is what's used to certify. 

10 So the efficiency improvement and 

11 cost of each design option are described in 

12 detail in Chapter 5. This is our request for 

13 comment, but we're requesting comment on the 

14 design options, their cost, their energy 

15 impact, whether they are technologically 

16 feasible, and whether they might lessen the 

17 utility or performance of the products in 

18 current uses. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's do that 

20 one first. 

21 MS. LEGETT: I'm going to flip to 

22 the next slide which has the list of the 
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1 design options. I also want to say that some 

2 of these options encompass kind of multiple 

3 levels of performance. For instance, under 

4 display doors, improve display and window 

5 glass system performance improvement. 

6 There's actually several levels. You add 

7 additional panes, having different gas fill, 

8 so just to clarify that. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

10 Ellis. 

11 MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. One 

12 question I have on the panel design, it was 

13 considered and calculated, I'm assuming the 

14 impact it would have on a restaurant and on 

15 the usability of that product out there as it 

16 takes up a larger percentage of the room 

17 that's available, so you have to increase the 

18 size of the room and the available space to 

19 store and all that. That was considered in 

20 this proposal? 

21 MS. LEGETT: I believe it was 

22 considered in the proposal, but not 
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1 necessarily in this analysis. This analysis 

2 pertains to the manufacturing costs and 

3 manufacturing efficiency. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert. 

5 MR. WILKINS: Quick question. 

6 Robert Wilkins, Danfoss. 

7 These are design options considered 

8 in the engineering analysis. Were these 

9 options included in the baseline for cost 

10 purposes and efficiency purposes that you 

11 developed? 

12 MS. LEGETT: They weren't included 

13 in the baseline. These are adding on to the 

14 -- 

15 MR. WILKINS: I'll ask it this way. 

16 In the model that you have established for 

17 achieving the proposed, let's say TSL 4, were 

18 all of these options included or were they 

19 just considered? 

20 MS. LEGETT: I'll try to answer your 

21 question. They were considered as ways that 

22 manufacturers could meet that standard. 
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1 Depending on the standard, you know, not all 

2 of these are going to be used necessarily. 

3 They are different levels. Does that make 

4 sense? 

5 MR. WILKINS: It makes sense. It's 

6 a little hard for us to know if we don't know 

7 what's in TSL 2, 3, or 4, it's a little hard 

8 for us to make some judgments about them. 

9 MS. LEGETT: I see. So the list of 

10 the design options that we assumed 

11 manufacturers would use to meet the different 

12 TSLs, there are several tables in Appendix 

13 10D. So that's where you'll find all that. 

14 MR. WILKINS: Thank you very much. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike. 

16 MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub. Again, I 

17 reiterate the need for the modeling tool as 

18 well as the data set that was used. And 

19 then, I guess, specifically where you talked 

20 about some of these things like improved 

21 condenser and evaporator, is that something 

22 where you established a value based on it 
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1 appeared that there would be something more 

2 efficient or did you actually find something 

3 that's commercially available that does 

4 provide that level of efficiency improvement? 

5 MS. LEGETT: To our knowledge, these 

6 are all commercially available. 

7 MR. PETERSON: Dean Peterson. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

9 Dean. Your microphone. 

10 MR. PETERSON: I believe you 

11 eliminated the use of hot gas on dedicated 

12 systems as an improvement option. We do 

13 build many dedicated systems with hot gas 

14 defrost, so -- 

15 MS. LEGETT: And does that give you 

16 an efficiency improvement? 

17 MR. PETERSON: Yes, it does. 

18 MS. LEGETT: If you could 

19 characterize that in comments, that would be 

20 very helpful for us. 

21 MR. PETERSON: Thank you. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Who did I 
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1 miss? 

2 Harvey. 

3 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. My now 

4 customary question is in your survey of the 

5 industry to establish the technology options 

6 that were available and used, did you confine 

7 your search to U.S. products or did you 

8 extend this to internationally available 

9 products used in commerce, particularly in 

10 East Asia and in Europe? 

11 MS. LEGETT: I believe we focused 

12 primarily on U.S. manufacturers. There's a 

13 major Canadian manufacturer as well. Which 

14 technologies did you have in mind? 

15 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, again. 

16 It's the concept here that matters. We're 

17 entering an era of global competition with 

18 other rulemakings on other products. We have 

19 seen significant technology options that were 

20 used abroad, have significant opportunities 

21 to compete with our manufacturers and this 

22 DOE activity is a framing of the debate about 
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1 what is possible and what is necessary for 

2 American competitiveness. And I'm extremely 

3 disappointed that DOE habitually does not 

4 look internationally in the comparison of 

5 technology options that should be considered. 

6 I would point in particular to the exclusion 

7 of non-HFC refrigerants in the commercial 

8 refrigeration exercise we were involved in 

9 last week as being extremely prejudicial. 

10 I'm ranting and I'll stop. 

11 MS. LEGETT: Thank you. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let me make a 

13 note, a process note. We have a significant 

14 hum in this room and apparently that's the 

15 A/C system that's causing that from up above 

16 us somehow, but as a consequence if everyone 

17 could get this microphone close to their face 

18 and speak loudly, that will help us all 

19 because in the back they're having a hard 

20 time hearing. Okay? 

21 Who else has a comment? There's a 

22 lot of potential here for additional comment 
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1 or maybe you just need more time to put a lot 

2 of detail in writing. Maybe that's what's 

3 required at this point. Okay. 

4 Yes, Ellis. 

5 MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. It was 

6 discussed in this, but kind of overlooked. 

7 We brought up the last time the fact that we 

8 use a heater wire that's self-regulating 

9 which it doesn't come on unless it's needed 

10 versus something that's on 100 percent of the 

11 time. The specs were written around -- the 

12 requirements here are written around a heater 

13 wire that's on all the time no matter whether 

14 you need it or not. I'd like to know why 

15 that was not considered as part of this -- 

16 you talk about improvements, well, that's an 

17 improvement to a non-display door, but yet it 

18 was kind of just overlooked. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: All right. 

20 MS. LEGETT: Thank you. Maybe Laura 

21 has something to add. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Laura. 
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1 MS. DEGITZ: We saw your comments 

2 and considered this as a design option, but 

3 the way the test procedure is written, we had 

4 a hard time accounting for that feature. You 

5 get a credit for time off that your heater 

6 wire -- you get like a credit for a control 

7 device. 

8 We weren't exactly sure how to 

9 characterize the heater wire and we couldn't 

10 find any market information about the energy 

11 consumption of that type of heater wire. If 

12 you could provide us with more information 

13 about it, maybe in written comment it would 

14 help us address that. 

15 MR. CRAIG: I notice in other areas 

16 we're adding like light controls and those 

17 are on and off also, so I don't understand 

18 why the DOE wouldn't consider even -- it was 

19 brought up in tests also. It just seems like 

20 they overlook it because there's not very 

21 many people doing it, so we just won't pay 

22 any attention to it. And I hate to see the 
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1 DOE pass by something that could save some 

2 pretty good money just because they don't 

3 want to deal with it. If you understand what 

4 I mean -- or don't know how to deal with it, 

5 I guess. 

6 MS. DEGITZ: Certainly, if you 

7 provide us with more information that would 

8 help us address that feature. 

9 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles Llenza, 

10 Department of Energy. I don't think we just 

11 overlooked it. It's just that sometimes we 

12 don't have any data that can be of utility to 

13 us or to quantify what that is costing us in 

14 energy or saving us in energy. So it will be 

15 important your input. 

16 MR. CRAIG: Okay, thank you. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon and 

18 then to Guy. 

19 MR. LEWIS: Yes, Harmon Lewis. We 

20 provided that type of data, Charles, to 

21 Rebecca and the other group and through you 

22 with our System 100 energy controller on the 
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1 heater wire that controls the percentage of 

2 time it works and the cut in and cut out 

3 temps. It's over $100 a door cooler or 

4 freezer. Each year we sold about 2,000 of 

5 those. So $200,000 in energy, I think. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do you want 

7 to follow on, Charlie? 

8 MR. LEWIS: It is certainly out 

9 there and could be done by others and I'll 

10 send you the data on the math that supports 

11 it. 

12 MS. DEGITZ: I have a follow-up 

13 question. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Laura. 

15 MS. DEGITZ: So it sounds like what 

16 you're talking about is a control device and 

17 it sounds like what Ellis Craig is talking 

18 about is a heater wire that self-regulates, 

19 where there's no device, is that correct? 

20 MR. LEWIS: That is correct. 

21 MS. DEGITZ: I just wanted to 

22 clarify. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

2 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. In 

3 both cases, it sounds like the real lack is 

4 the field impact on energy use of those 

5 things and my organization is willing to go 

6 out and actually measure that stuff if we 

7 know where to find the coolers to measure 

8 that on. So if you sell anything into the 

9 four states of the Pacific Northwest, tell me 

10 where they are and I'll go measure it. 

11 (Laughter.) 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Guy, you're 

13 next. 

14 MR. SENTER: Guy Senter. Yes, 

15 that's an important metric and it should 

16 float. There was something in prior, like in 

17 Appendix A, I believe, with the current 

18 regulation that there's a 75 percent assumed 

19 PTO and that really is not correct in the 

20 field because being able to adjust that PTO 

21 is the marginal method by which we can 

22 improve our product. So you could simply 
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1 lower the thermostat setting, buy a different 

2 thermostat and have remarkable changes across 

3 your entire line of doors instead of going 

4 through and changing different wire 

5 resistances and changing 17 part numbers. So 

6 that's important. Oh, also for panels, 

7 pocket connector design should be a metric. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

9 MS. LEGETT: Thank you. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You're next. 

11 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal12 Beloit. I think Heatcraft had made the same 

13 comments on the motor potentials. For larger 

14 units, there's the three-phase option as well 

15 as nowadays we have multi-horsepower ECM 

16 motors as well as up to 460 volt single and 

17 three-phase. 

18 Was any of your evaluations done on 

19 larger units with those available motor 

20 technologies? 

21 MS. LEGETT: We focused on single 

22 phase. If you have data for three phase 
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1 energy improvement, we'd appreciate that. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey. 

3 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. I'd like 

4 to go back to some of the comments on 

5 features that can save energy whether they're 

6 controls or self regulating heater wires or 

7 things like that. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Can you speak 

9 louder, Harvey? Thank you. 

10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I'd 

11 like to go back to some of the comments on 

12 features that can save energy. DOE has 

13 adopted AHRI 1250 as the basis for the 

14 refrigeration system and on some of these 

15 other features are simply not included in how 

16 DOE measures energy. And consequently unless 

17 you do a prescriptive standard, it's very 

18 difficult to see how in the present structure 

19 DOE can give the appropriate credit to 

20 features that will save energy, but may not 

21 show up on AHRI 1250. AHRI 1250 may have 

22 many advantages such as reproducibility and 
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1 ease of testing, but it may be limited in its 

2 potential to be an adequate energy descriptor 

3 for this class of products. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

5 Rebecca, cue 26. I think some of this 

6 conversation has been addressing Issue 26. 

7 I'd like to see if there are other comments 

8 on 26. 

9 MS. LEGETT: Twenty-six being 

10 requesting comment on whether there are 

11 features or attributes that could lessen the 

12 utility of these products. That's one of the 

13 screening criteria. The options considered 

14 should not reduce or have a negative impact 

15 on the utility of the product, so we'd 

16 appreciate any questions about that. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Buzz? 

18 MR. SCHAEFFER: Buzz Schaeffer. On 

19 the refrigeration systems on the evaluation, 

20 was that evaluated as a total package or on 

21 an individual component level? 

22 MS. LEGETT: Matched systems, 
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1 dedicated condensing systems were evaluated 

2 as a whole system. We also evaluated unit 

3 coolers by themselves that would be connected 

4 to a multiplex condensing system. 

5 MR. SCHAEFFER: Are those 

6 evaluations published already? 

7 MS. LEGETT: Yes, the evaluations 

8 should be in Chapter 5 in the engineering 

9 analysis. 

10 MR. SCHAEFFER: Thank you. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon? 

12 MR. McHUGH: For the display doors, 

13 in evaluating the utility when you looked at, 

14 I believe, soft coat is in some of the TSL 

15 levels, we heard comments at the CRE meeting 

16 that the soft coat had impacts on visible 

17 light transmittance of the doors and I'm 

18 wondering if as part of your evaluation 

19 you're either looking at that utility or 

20 looking at potentially that there needs to be 

21 a little bit more light placed into -- so 

22 that's potentially combined with higher 
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1 output LED or something like that to evaluate 

2 the total energy impact. 

3 MS. DEGITZ: We did try to account 

4 for the amount of soft coat and how -- 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Laura, we 

6 can't hear you. Take that microphone and 

7 heave it across the room. 

8 (Laughter.) 

9 Put it somewhere where we're not 

10 going to be frustrated by it. 

11 MS. DEGITZ: I said we did try to 

12 account for soft coat and how that would 

13 impact your visibility into a display walk-in 

14 which display doors are typically used on. 

15 And we hope that the levels we picked would 

16 not impact that, but if you have comments on 

17 the amount of soft coat that we're using, I 

18 think Chapter 5 should explicitly state how 

19 much -- which panes of glass have soft coat. 

20 That would be helpful if you comment on those 

21 levels. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 
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1 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. If 

2 I'm not mistaken, the Window software that 

3 you used to model those things can actually 

4 put out a VLT number and I'm just wondering 

5 if you had some sort of minimum VLT below 

6 which you didn't want to go. I mean is that 

7 what you used to evaluate that or is that not 

8 it? 

9 MS. DEGITZ: We solicited feedback 

10 from manufacturer interviews to evaluate 

11 visibility into the doors. We did use Window 

12 to model these doors and if you have a level 

13 that you would recommend, we can compare our 

14 evaluations to that level. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon, oh, 

16 Charlie, keep going. 

17 MR. STEPHENS: I will try to provide 

18 some comments on that. I think we're doing a 

19 lot of window research right now into that 

20 and I think I can probably provide some good 

21 comments along those lines, as long as you 

22 have -- I just want to verify that you had 
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1 the VLT numbers coming out of the model. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 

3 MS. DEGITZ: I didn't specifically 

4 look at them, but if it's capable of 

5 producing those numbers, then we should be 

6 able to produce them. 

7 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, it does. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

9 MR. McHUGH: Related to windows 

10 again, my understanding is that there wasn't 

11 a measure that looked at just low-e coatings 

12 on triple glazed windows, so you had the 

13 triple glaze without low-e and then you had 

14 double glazed and then with two suspended 

15 films. Am I getting that wrong? This is for 

16 low temperature. 

17 MS. DEGITZ: I don't remember off 

18 the top of my head, but I can get back to 

19 you. 

20 MR. McHUGH: So I guess the comment 

21 is is that would be something good to look at 

22 as a low cost efficiency measure. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Rebecca, on 

2 slide 31, is there anything you want to call 

3 out specifically here or are you content 

4 we've covered it to the extent we can? 

5 MS. LEGETT: I think we've covered 

6 it to the extent we can in this meeting. But 

7 I urge you all on your own to please take a 

8 closer look at this and submit your written 

9 comments. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, we're 

11 moving on. 

12 MS. LEGETT: So very high level 

13 here, we used a model to estimate the energy 

14 rating, again rated according to the test 

15 procedure of baseline equipment and levels of 

16 performance above the baseline associated 

17 with configurations including groups of 

18 design options. And again, a couple of 

19 slides later there's a graph that illustrates 

20 this, how we added those on. 

21 The model is based on engineering 

22 principles, supplemented by test data and 
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1 information from manufacturer interviews. 

2 One comment we got in the preliminary 

3 analysis was to consider interactive effects 

4 so we did take a very close look at 

5 interactive effects on the energy use of 

6 implementing multiple design options on a 

7 unit and in an equipment class. 

8 We've heard this several times, but 

9 DOE did not consider interactive effects that 

10 wouldn't be captured by the test procedure. 

11 So system-wide effects, for instance, yes, 

12 that is perhaps a limitation to the approach. 

13 There's a lot of balance at work here. So 

14 any comments you have that could help us 

15 capture those while again being able to model 

16 the energy as is rated by the test procedure 

17 would be helpful. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

19 MR. LEMMOND: Sorry to bring this up 

20 again, but you mentioned that there were test 

21 data used to build your model. 

22 MS. LEGETT: Limited. 
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1 MR. LEMMOND: Limited. I was going 

2 to say was there any test data -- were there 

3 test data for each class of equipment? 

4 MS. LEGETT: I couldn't say that 

5 here. 

6 MR. LEMMOND: Okay. Will that test 

7 data that was used be made publicly 

8 available? 

9 MS. LEGETT: I can't speak to that. 

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: We will provide the 

11 model. We're going to clean up the model and 

12 we'll provide that for stakeholders. 

13 MR. LEMMOND: But what about the 

14 test data? 

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: That test data 

16 cannot be -- 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

18 Jon. 

19 Okay, there you see the comment box. Issue 

20 9. Comments here. 

21 MS. LEGETT: Again, I think we've 

22 already made that request a little earlier on 
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1 any performance data you can provide. 

2 Moving on, in addition to the energy 

3 analysis, we did a manufacturing cost 

4 analysis. The manufacturing costs are based 

5 on material prices, as recently as we knew 

6 about them, conversion processes used by 

7 manufacturers, overhead factors. We got some 

8 of this information from confidential 

9 manufacturer interviews. We also got 

10 information from catalog data and other 

11 publicly available data. We disassembled 

12 several models of equipment to create a bill 

13 of materials. That was actually the basis 

14 for most of the manufacturing costs. 

15 Again, this analysis focuses on the 

16 manufacturer, so it didn't include the cost 

17 of components that the manufacturer did not 

18 supply. But we do request comment on both 

19 this analysis, the cost analysis, and the 

20 assumptions that we made. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike. 

22 MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub. With 
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1 respect to the disassembly of equipment, did 

2 you limit that in size such that you just 

3 looked at small equipment or did you look at 

4 all of the breadth of the products that would 

5 be covered by the standard or the regulation? 

6 MS. LEGETT: We looked at a range of 

7 sizes. We were practically constrained at 

8 the very largest sizes, but again, we did 

9 supplement the tear-down data with catalog 

10 data. Go ahead. 

11 MR. STRAUB: Could you share the 

12 size of the equipment you did tear down? 

13 MS. LEGETT: I don't know if we can 

14 share that, but I can get back to you. 

15 MR. STRAUB: I don't want to know 

16 the manufacturer, I just want to know 

17 capacity sizes. 

18 MS. LEGETT: I'll check on that. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

20 MR. LEMMOND: I have a very specific 

21 question about a number that was thrown 

22 around earlier at the beginning of this 
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1 meeting is 25 cents per square foot of panel. 

2 I noticed -- it's on page 55810 of the NOPR. 

3 And it doesn't say how that number was used. 

4 I'm wondering if you could comment on whether 

5 or not that was used. 

6 MS. LEGETT: I'm glad you asked 

7 that. That was, as all comments, that was 

8 considered. That's not the number we used. 

9 That was an information point. We actually 

10 calculated the panel costs by this method. I 

11 believe I can say we calculated the 32 square 

12 foot panel costs about a dollar per square 

13 foot just for the foam. So that doesn't 

14 count all the other things that go into that 

15 panel. I believe that's somewhere in the 

16 document, so I would refer to that. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keep going. 

18 MR. LEMMOND: Just to follow up. 

19 We're conducting surveys to find out what 

20 that cost would be. We may -- if we get 

21 enough feedback from manufacturers we may be 

22 able to share that. 
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1 MS. LEGETT: That would be really 

2 helpful. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What's your 

4 timeline for that, Jon? 

5 MR. LEMMOND: Well, the survey is 

6 out there, so I don't know if we're going to 

7 -- it depends on how many people respond 

8 essentially. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

10 Ellis? 

11 MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. What was 

12 your final conclusion on walk-in panels what 

13 the cost would be? 

14 MS. LEGETT: Off the top of my head, 

15 I don't know. 

16 MR. CRAIG: Pretty significant point 

17 for us to know whether that's even in the 

18 ballpark. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Maybe we can 

20 dig for it. 

21 MR. CRAIG: Okay, that would be 

22 good. Thank you. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: In the 

2 meantime, we're going to move on. Charlie. 

3 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, I 

4 can sort of give you a ballpark estimate 

5 having just looked at them yesterday in 

6 Chapter 5 of the TSD, you can look it up. 

7 It's in the probably $60 to $100 range 

8 depending on the size of the panel they're 

9 looking at for the panel costs and these are 

10 not big panels if you look at it. I think one 

11 of the panels they look at is 1.5 feet wide 

12 or 18 inches wide and 8 feet tall and the 

13 next one is 4.5 feet wide or something like 

14 that. So they're not -- and they go over $100 

15 for -- as the panels get larger. So dollars 

16 per square foot. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's let the 

18 analysts search for that and we'll come back 

19 with it once we uncover it. 

20 Robert? 

21 MR. WILKINS: If this is the wrong 

22 point to make this comment, let me know and 
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1 I'll defer it. But I think there's a wild 

2 card in cost analysis and refrigeration 

3 systems with the refrigerant changes that are 

4 coming up. One hundred ten countries have 

5 signed a declaration of support to phase down 

6 HFC refrigerants. It's being discussed this 

7 month, in fact. It's not likely to be 

8 approved this month, but will likely be 

9 approved during before the date that this 

10 goes into effect. 

11 I raise it here because these 

12 products use -- utilize a relatively large 

13 refrigerant charge. Any equipment that has 

14 remote condensing has relatively large 

15 charges. And also has potential for leak 

16 because it's field connected and field 

17 installed. A change to lower GWP refrigerant 

18 could be a substantial change in these 

19 particular applications, much more so than 

20 the ones we discussed last week. 

21 Switching to hydrocarbon 

22 refrigerants is highly flammable. It's 
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1 problematic in these applications. CO2 is a 

2 challenge in these applications. It's not 

3 clear the direction it's going. The point is 

4 it's a huge wild card. It's likely to change 

5 the cost pattern of these products, even the 

6 design considerations. You may, for example 

7 begin to see self-contained refrigeration 

8 systems that fit through the wall like a 

9 window air conditioner does to minimize the 

10 refrigerant charge, totally changing these 

11 whole parameters. 

12 So I urge DOE to -- I can't say what 

13 it's going to be, no one knows, but I'd urge 

14 you to consider the uncertainty presented by 

15 this regulatory initiative. 

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you. I think 

17 we heard a lot about this at the CRE meeting 

18 with the refrigerants and DOE is certainly 

19 not ignoring that situation. One of my 

20 favorite lines in my old job was what you 

21 just said. It's impossible to predict, but 

22 it's going to happen, right? 
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1 MR. WILKINS: And the charges are 

2 much larger in these applications than they 

3 are and also the impact is much higher. 

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think right now 

5 we're in a situation where the current law 

6 does not exist right now to require that 

7 change so it's legally there's things going 

8 on there, how we consider this standard now 

9 and five years from now, obviously, when the 

10 standard potentially comes into effect the 

11 refrigerant market could be different and 

12 we'll have to cross that bridge. 

13 MR. WILKINS: Absolutely. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So thank you, 

15 Jon Cymbalsky. 

16 Michael? Okay, that's it. 

17 Additional comments here? Laura, do 

18 you have something here? 

19 MS. DEGITZ: So we estimated that 

20 for a medium-size panel which should be an 8 

21 by 4 foot panel at baseline it would cost 

22 $153 for that panel for the manufacturer to 
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1 produce that panel, not what they're selling 

2 it at, the production cost. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Baseline 

4 model. 

5 MS. DEGITZ: Baseline model. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

7 MS. LEGETT: Three and a half inch 

8 cooler panel. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Three and a 

10 half inch cooler panel, baseline model. 

11 Thank you. 

12 We're ready to move on, I believe. 

13 Yes? 

14 MS. LEGETT: All right, again, the 

15 discussion up to now has been manufacturer 

16 production costs. We also calculated the 

17 manufacturer selling price which is the 

18 production cost times a manufacturer markup, 

19 plus the shipping cost. 

20 These are our estimated markups. 

21 They were based on information we gathered 

22 particularly from manufacturer interviews. 
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1 Shipping costs -- and again, they're 

2 different for the different types of 

3 components because they're largely different 

4 industries. 

5 Shipping costs were calculated by 

6 the product volume and more details are in 

7 the engineering analysis on the shipping 

8 costs and the markups, but we do request 

9 comment on these assumptions. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What about 

11 these figures? No comment here? Maybe in 

12 writing. Okay. 

13 MS. LEGETT: I'll move on. The 

14 output of the engineering analysis is a set 

15 of getting back to the cost-efficiency 

16 curves. We created one for each 

17 representative unit of each equipment class. 

18 The point on the curve with the highest 

19 energy consumption or lowest efficiency and 

20 lowest manufacturer cost represents the 

21 baseline unit analytically realizing that the 

22 actual market distribution of units may be 
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1 different. And each subsequent point on the 

2 curve represents a higher efficiency level 

3 corresponding to an additional or a more 

4 advanced design option. And for this 

5 analysis, we ordered these points by simple 

6 payback. There's another more complex 

7 payback analysis that we will probably 

8 discuss this afternoon. 

9 All the cost efficiency curves are 

10 printed in Appendix 5A for every unit or 

11 system that we analyzed. So I'm going to -- 

12 probably the easiest way to illustrate this 

13 might be to show you an example. 

14 This is a cooler display door, 

15 medium sized. And you can see that the 

16 metric here is daily energy consumption and 

17 that's the metric you find by running the 

18 test procedure. And the manufacturer 

19 production cost is on the Y axis. So the 

20 highest -- the baseline unit with the highest 

21 energy consumption is the right most point 

22 there. That's efficiency level zero. And 
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1 then for each additional efficiency level, 

2 you add a design option and then we 

3 calculated the new calculated energy 

4 consumption and the new manufacturer 

5 production cost. You can see these are 

6 ordered in terms of basically efficacy, more 

7 bang for your buck that are going to be the 

8 lower efficiency levels. 

9 And then that last point way up 

10 there is max. tech. that has all the options 

11 that we considered. You can see that as you 

12 go along the curve you get smaller and 

13 smaller reductions in energy consumption for 

14 higher and higher costs. So this is an 

15 example for a cooler display door. Here's an 

16 example for a refrigeration system. This is 

17 a dedicated condensing so you have a unit 

18 cooler and a condensing unit combined. 

19 Medium temperature, outdoor refrigeration 

20 system, 18,000 BTUs per hour with a scroll 

21 compressor. And again, for each analysis 

22 point we had, we created a different curve. 
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1 And again, this time the metric is 

2 the AWEF calculated from AHRI 1250 and in 

3 that case the higher the AWEF, the more 

4 efficient the unit. So this graph goes from 

5 left to right. You add design options and it 

6 increases the cost and it also increases the 

7 efficiency. 

8 So I'll -- that's my last slide. 

9 I'll go ahead and see if anyone has any 

10 comments or questions on these graphs or any 

11 general questions about the engineering 

12 analysis. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

14 MR. McHUGH: I'm trying to -- for 

15 the defrost control, could you describe what 

16 the base case is and what your proposed case 

17 is for the control? 

18 MS. LEGETT: So the base case is 

19 time initiated temperature terminated. And 

20 you'll have to look this up because I could 

21 be wrong. So it's a defrost control on a 

22 timer and it starts the defrost. It warms up 
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1 the coil and melts the ice, warms up the coil 

2 to a certain point and then cuts off. Does 

3 that answer your question? 

4 MR. McHUGH: And then the proposed 

5 is? 

6 MS. LEGETT: The proposed is 

7 theoretically it's an on-demand system. So 

8 it only starts to defrost when you need a 

9 defrost. In practice, in the model, we just 

10 reduced the number of defrosts that we 

11 assumed would occur during the course of the 

12 day. 

13 MR. McHUGH: And in terms of what's 

14 commercially available, is that an optical 

15 control or what is the commercial product 

16 description? 

17 MS. LEGETT: We didn't specify a 

18 commercial product. I actually would like to 

19 ask the refrigeration manufacturers what's 

20 out there in terms of defrost control. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis. 

22 MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. I just 
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1 need a little bit of clarification here. 

2 We're talking about costs now and we did use 

3 the baseline of the units we were looking at, 

4 the 3.5 inch and the wood frame as our 

5 baseline when calculating costs, correct? 

6 MS. LEGETT: Yes. 

7 MR. CRAIG: So if that's incorrect, 

8 then this would be incorrect. Am I correct? 

9 MS. LEGETT: Potentially. It 

10 depends on which way it's incorrect. 

11 MR. CRAIG: It's actually less. The 

12 baseline you have is less than what's 

13 actually out there. 

14 MS. LEGETT: This is only for an 

15 individual unit. It doesn't speak to what 

16 the actual distribution of efficiencies in 

17 the market is. 

18 MR. CRAIG: Okay. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay? Buzz, 

20 did you have something? 

21 MR. SCHAEFFER: Buzz Schaeffer. I 

22 was just thinking your question was what's 
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1 commercially available. You really should 

2 state what is commercially available that 

3 works. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, we are 

5 going to move on. 

6 MS. LEGETT: That's the end of that 

7 analysis. Did you want to move on to the 

8 next one? 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: How many want 

10 to keep going and how many want to break for 

11 lunch? Break for lunch. 

12 Let's break for lunch. Okay. I've 

13 been convinced. 

14 MR. SACHS: Are you saying you're 

15 hungry? 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No, I'm not 

17 hungry. It's noon. We'll take an hour for 

18 lunch. 

19 Please do not leave the Forrestal 

20 building. There's a big cafeteria. Go down 

21 to the ground floor and go about 100 yards in 

22 that direction up two escalators, there's a 
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1 big cafeteria there. They have all kinds of 

2 things. 

3 You must wear this badge. You will 

4 have to -- as you return from the cafeteria, 

5 you'll have to go through a security portal 

6 and you might need an ID. Sometimes they 

7 require it, sometimes do not. 

8 This room will be locked. You can 

9 leave your stuff. It will be supervised here 

10 and it's all safe. 

11 So we've made good progress, we're 

12 still a little bit behind. We'll make it up 

13 and we'll see you back here to start at 1 

14 sharp. 

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

16 matter went off the record at 12:01 p.m. and 

17 resumed at 1:04 p.m.) 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23
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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N 

2 (1:04 p.m.) 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, thanks to 

4 all of you for being punctual. I hope you 

5 had a nice lunch. We are going to pick up 

6 where we left off, engineering analysis -- 

7 oh, pardon me -- markups analysis and energy 

8 use analysis and hear from Katie Coughlin. 

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, my name is 

10 Katie Coughlin. I work with Lawrence 

11 Berkeley Lab. I am going to take through the 

12 next few analyses that relate -- these 

13 analyses relate to the impacts of the 

14 standard on users of the equipment and also 

15 the general impacts nationally on energy 

16 savings and NPV. 

17 So, we will start with the energy 

18 use and markups, which, in addition to the 

19 engineering, are the two major inputs to the 

20 LCC analysis. So, we have the sketch here 

21 that shows the flow of information through 

22 the various stages of the analysis. 
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1 What we have heard about so far is 

2 the engineering that looks at the manufacture 

3 of these components and systems. The markups 

4 that I will be talking about refer to the 

5 markups in the distribution chain, moving the 

6 equipment from the manufacturer to the user. 

7 And then energy use analysis also refers to 

8 the energy use in the field. 

9 So, for the distribution channels 

10 for these products, DOE considered two sort 

11 of overlapping sets of distribution channels. 

12 So, for refrigeration systems and various 

13 types of doors, the distribution channels 

14 from the manufacturer are the three national 

15 accounts, which is direct to a user, sales to 

16 the envelope manufacturer, or sales to 

17 wholesalers. 

18 And then for envelope panels and 

19 non-display doors, the equipment comes from -

20 - so the OEM is the acronym used for the 

21 envelope manufacturer. Going from the OEM to 

22 the user, there can be either national 
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1 accounts, again, distributors, or general 

2 contractors. And general contractor in this 

3 context means a building contractor. 

4 So, the percentages in these tables 

5 show the fraction of equipment of different 

6 types that goes through these distribution 

7 channels, before it reaches the final user. 

8 These numbers have been developed using 

9 stakeholder input that was received during 

10 the preliminary analysis. 

11 So for example, if you are looking 

12 at multiplex refrigeration systems, the 

13 national accounts are about 45 percent of all 

14 units, wholesalers account for another 45 

15 percent, and then ten percent go to the OEM, 

16 where they will be passed through a second 

17 channel. 

18 The second row of numbers or the 

19 second set of numbers in the table represents 

20 the distribution channels for the second set 

21 of -- coming from the OEMs. So envelopes, 

22 both panel and non-display doors have the 
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1 same distribution, 45 percent through 

2 national accounts, 44 percent distributor, 11 

3 percent contractor. And then final row is 

4 for the equipment that is coming from the 

5 manufacturer going to an OEM, and then going 

6 from the OEM out the door is disaggregated 

7 according to the percentages on the bottom 

8 row. 

9 So, these numbers have been 

10 developed by actually considering the 

11 different usage categories, which pretty much 

12 follow the equipment classes. So, freezers 

13 and coolers, display, non-display. And then 

14 the industry segments that they go to, 

15 primarily categorized as food service and 

16 food sales. 

17 So, there is quite a bit of 

18 additional detail in the NOPR TSD on 

19 fractions of each type of industry and how 

20 they deal with other manufacturers, 

21 distributors, contractors, et cetera. And so 

22 these are just the overall numbers at the end 
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1 of that more detailed analysis. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Maybe just 

3 pause for a second. Anything that anyone 

4 would note about this that is significant? 

5 Harvey. 

6 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. I'm just 

7 not clear on the distinction between the 

8 wholesaler and the distributor in your table. 

9 Is this just how the panel people 

10 differentiate themselves from the 

11 refrigeration side? 

12 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So, a 

13 wholesaler -- yes, the distributor would be 

14 involved in assembling the actual walk-in 

15 unit in the field, whereas the wholesaler 

16 would not. 

17 So, the wholesaler is just 

18 wholesaling equipment to people who are going 

19 to go then take and take it and do something 

20 with it; whereas, the distributor is involved 

21 in the assembly of the equipment. 

22 MR. SACHS: As opposed to the 
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1 contractor? 

2 MS. COUGHLIN: Well, the contractor 

3 is involved in the assembly of the equipment 

4 but these are general building contractors 

5 and not specialized to this subset. 

6 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

8 MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi with HARDI. 

9 I will be commenting on this in our 

10 comments as a more clearly breakdown. But, I 

11 would estimate that more folks would be 

12 classified as the wholesaler variety, as 

13 opposed to distributor and actually putting 

14 together product in the field. That seems 

15 very high to me. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

17 you. 

18 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other 

20 comments? Yes, Harmon. 

21 MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis, USD. I am 

22 wondering, is that distributor, as far as the 
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1 envelopes, is that what you would consider 

2 food service equipment dealer? Because that 

3 is who we sell most of our units through. 

4 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Luke? 

6 MR. CRAIG: Yes, Luke Craig. The 

7 national account where basically you are 

8 selling direct to the end user, 45 percent is 

9 way high. It would be closer, maybe, to 

10 maybe five to ten percent. Distributor, most 

11 of our, I would say probably 45 percent of 

12 our business goes to food equipment dealers, 

13 45 percent goes to contractors, and maybe one 

14 or two percent would be to a wholesaler. 

15 Then the rest would be direct to national 

16 accounts. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Luke, it 

18 seems like you are mixing your estimate of 

19 the national statistics and then you inserted 

20 the statistics from your company. Did you do 

21 both there, or were they all -- 

22 MR. CRAIG: Well, I'm just giving an 
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1 example. Yes, that seems -- direct to the 

2 end user, 45 percent seems very, very high. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

4 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, so 

6 comments on this would be helpful. Let's 

7 proceed. 

8 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So, the second 

9 aspect of the analysis is to estimate the 

10 markups associated with these different 

11 distribution channels. Again, there is quite 

12 a lot of detail in all the bits and pieces 

13 that were used to create overall markups. I 

14 am just going to present the final results 

15 and the basic conceptual overview of how this 

16 is done. 

17 So, DOE uses two types of markups in 

18 its analyses, a baseline markup and an 

19 incremental markup. The baseline markup 

20 represents the markup on the baseline unit 

21 that includes all of the costs associated 

22 with the distribution channel. The 
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1 incremental markup is meant to represent the 

2 component of the cost that is affected by the 

3 standard. So, when the manufacturer's 

4 selling price goes up, the distributor, the 

5 sort of general category of distributor is 

6 going to markup that increase but not 

7 necessarily by the full baseline amount. So, 

8 DOE uses industry data to break the costs in 

9 the distribution channel down between those 

10 that should scale with the manufacturer price 

11 of the equipment and those that are 

12 independent of the manufacturer price of the 

13 equipment and, based on that data, comes up 

14 with these incremental markups. 

15 So, the table shows for the 

16 equipment classes, the major equipment 

17 classes, the baseline and incremental 

18 markups. Generally speaking, incremental 

19 markups are on the order of half of the 

20 baseline markups. 

21 So, these are added on top of the 

22 markup. We have the manufacturer cost; then 
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1 that is marked up by the manufacturer; and 

2 then these markups are added to those to 

3 represent the distribution channel costs. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert. 

5 MR. WILKINS: Okay, just a question. 

6 I can see that maybe if there is a steep 

7 change in cost that all of the markup may not 

8 flow through. But over a three- to five-year 

9 period, I would imagine it would move back to 

10 the baseline. So, I am wondering if this 

11 incremental, do you assume that that remains 

12 in place for the duration or does it 

13 gradually move back to the baseline so that 

14 the distributor or whoever moves back to the 

15 typical markup that he or she or gets in her 

16 business? 

17 MS. COUGHLIN: No, we leave these 

18 markups cost over the analysis period. 

19 MR. WILKINS: I would assume most 

20 business people want to recover their margin. 

21 So, I don't have any better data but -- 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You are 
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1 thinking that these figures, they are not 

2 recovering their margins. 

3 MR. WILKINS: They don't appear -- 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I am seeing a 

5 few heads nodding. Harmon, do you want to 

6 comment? 

7 MR. LEWIS: Yes, I don't agree with 

8 it. I think your incremental numbers are 

9 going to need to be the others and maybe even 

10 worse, if you have got significant cash 

11 outlays on equipment to get the incremental. 

12 Or maybe I just don't understand it. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Can you be 

14 specific? Can you give numbers, Robert? 

15 MR. WILKINS: Well, if your baseline 

16 is 1.51 on the top two, I don't understand 

17 the incremental is less, unless you are only 

18 saying that the cost of the, like going 

19 outdoor to cover the winterization or what 

20 have you, the standard is only 19 percent of 

21 the cost or are you saying that is all you 

22 are going to mark it up? 
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, so some of the 

2 costs, for example, you pay a certain amount 

3 of a cost to rent or maintain a space that 

4 the business operates in. Those are not 

5 going to be affected by the increase in the 

6 first cost to the equipment. 

7 So, essentially by looking at the 

8 breakdown of costs associated with operating 

9 these businesses, DOE identifies those that 

10 they think are not affected by the existence 

11 of the standard and those that are affected 

12 by the standard. 

13 So, this is all presented in detail 

14 in Chapter 6. If there are some costs that 

15 DOE has moved out of the category of being 

16 affected by the standard, that should be 

17 moved back in, we can account for that. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

19 MR. LEWIS: Before you get to 

20 Charlie, if we use those numbers, we would be 

21 out of business this time next year. So, 

22 nice seeing you. 
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1 (Laughter.) 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

3 Harmon. 

4 Charlie. 

5 MR. STEPHENS: There is always 

6 confusion about this. For those of us who 

7 have been doing this for years, it actually 

8 made sense. And I was involved long ago in 

9 how this was structured. So, I kind of get 

10 it better than most. 

11 But the efficiency of the equipment 

12 being sold doesn't really affect an awful lot 

13 of a business' costs. The increased cost of 

14 the equipment doesn't require a different 

15 sales force. More sales people doesn't 

16 require more building, in a lot of cases. It 

17 doesn't require -- most of the overhead just 

18 stays the way it was. 

19 So, and these numbers, the 1.19, the 

20 one that would put you out of business is not 

21 being applied to the entire panel, for 

22 instance. It is only being applied to the 
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1 incremental cost of the panel. And then the 

2 baseline markup is there, the 1.51, the one 

3 you were looking at, would be applied to the 

4 rest of the cost. 

5 So, it is only an incremental markup 

6 on an incremental cost when it doesn't -- 

7 when that cost isn't affected, doesn't affect 

8 the business because of the efficiency level 

9 of the thing. 

10 So, I know it is a hard concept. 

11 You really have to read that section of the 

12 report to get it but it actually does make 

13 some sense, once you understand it. 

14 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So, very 

15 briefly. If the baseline price of a panel is 

16 $100, there will be a 1.51 markup on that. 

17 Then say going to TSL 1, you add $10, there 

18 will be a 1.19 markup on that $10. 

19 MR. WILKINS: I spent a significant 

20 part of my time in sales. And I think my 

21 boss would have told me, he said Robert, you 

22 have got this new product and you are letting 
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1 your margins go down. Because I think what a 

2 business person would be looking at is what 

3 is his overall capital employed and how does 

4 he earn a return on capital employed. 

5 And he or she has got to invest in 

6 more inventory because what they are buying, 

7 the price has gone up. So, their investment 

8 in inventories are going up. Their 

9 receivables are going up. The capital 

10 investment in equipment to form thicker 

11 panels, that is going up. 

12 And so to maintain a return on 

13 capital employed, they have got to do more 

14 than just pass through this regulatory cost 

15 increase at a nominal cost. I would just 

16 think that -- 

17 MS. COUGHLIN: But it is not. It is 

18 being marked up. So, again, the detail of 

19 how the markups are determined is provided. 

20 But it is not -- I think this concept is 

21 pretty common sense. If you buy a cup of 

22 coffee, if coffee beans go up by a factor of 
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1 two, you are not going to see a factor of two 

2 increase on the purchase of a price of a cup 

3 of coffee. 

4 MR. WILKINS: Perhaps not 

5 immediately, but two years later it is going 

6 to be baked into it. Because that coffee 

7 shop has got to earn a return on the 

8 investment. 

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. And those 

10 aspects are considered in the markup 

11 analysis. 

12 MR. WILKINS: And this is going to 

13 dilute the margins over time. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie, do 

15 you want to try it again? This is 

16 complicated, y'all. 

17 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, this is 

18 complicated. The margins are not going down 

19 because the costs aren't going up. Not all 

20 of your costs go up. There is only a small 

21 part of a distributor's costs or a 

22 wholesaler's costs, or a retailer's costs, or 
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1 anybody subsequent to the manufacturer, which 

2 is what this is all about. 

3 Yes, the cost of the product out of 

4 the manufacturing plant goes up. But only a 

5 fraction of the distributor's costs that he 

6 is trying to recover in his margins go up. 

7 A lot of his costs don't go up. So, 

8 his margins don't go down. He is only 

9 incurring an increased cost, a marginal 

10 increased cost on the product that he is 

11 buying. The rests of his costs for his sales 

12 force, for the heating and cooling of his 

13 building, for the rent of his building or 

14 whatever it is, are not going up. So, his 

15 margins aren't going up or down they are just 

16 being maintained is what this amounts to. 

17 So, this markup essentially 

18 maintains margins. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Go ahead, 

20 Robert. 

21 MR. WILKINS: Robert here. So far, 

22 so good. And for that part of his analysis, 
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1 I can agree. But his capital investment has 

2 also gone up because this part that he is 

3 distributing he paid $100 for, he is now 

4 paying $120. So he has got more of his 

5 assets tied up in capital and inventory. 

6 MR. STEPHENS: But that is the 1.51. 

7 That is marked up by 1.51. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

9 MR. WILKINS: I don't -- 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Hang on. 

11 Christopher, do you want weigh in here? 

12 Christopher Lau. 

13 MR. LAU: Sure. This is related to 

14 the sidebar. So, as the gentleman here 

15 noted, this is for distributors on down. 

16 When we look at the markups for manufacturers 

17 in the manufacturer impact analysis, we do 

18 consider the impact of the conversion cost, 

19 as well as the incremental cost. 

20 MR. WILKINS: But what about the 

21 capital? Let me turn my point around into a 

22 question. Have you considered the increase 
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1 in capital investment that these businesses 

2 have made and how they are going to earn a 

3 return? They can't go to the bank and say I 

4 have got a new regulation from DOE, I need 

5 another million dollars but I am not getting 

6 any money to pay interest on that million 

7 dollars. 

8 MS. COUGHLIN: Again this is -- I'm 

9 not sure you are talking about capital costs 

10 of manufacturers or -- 

11 MR. WILKINS: Or distributors or 

12 dealers or anybody. 

13 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, so any 

14 increased finance costs will be accounted for 

15 in the markup analysis. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey. 

17 MR. WILKINS: Okay, if it is in 

18 there, then I'm fine. 

19 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, it's in there. 

20 MR. WILKINS: But I haven't heard 

21 how you did that. 

22 MR. SACHS: The markups are way over 
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1 my -- this is Harvey. Markups are way over 

2 my head and I will admit that. But I do have 

3 a question about this graph. The terminology 

4 you are using with DCs and Ms and PDs and 

5 that sort of stuff is not defined in the 

6 slides. 

7 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. 

8 MR. SACHS: And I was derelict in 

9 not reading the whole TSD before the meeting. 

10 MS. COUGHLIN: So, DC and MC are 

11 dedicated condenser, multiplex condenser. M 

12 and L refer to medium and low temperatures, 

13 so those are essentially coolers and 

14 freezers. The I and O refer to indoor and 

15 outdoor for the location of the condensing 

16 unit. So that is for the first few. 

17 And then the second, SP is the 

18 structural panel, DD is display door, PD is 

19 passage door, and FD is freight door. And 

20 the M and the L again refer to medium and low 

21 temperature of applications. 

22 MR. SACHS: Thank you. That takes 
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1 everything away from what is covering my 

2 eyes. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: David, 

4 please. 

5 MR. GRIFE: David Grife with Arctic. 

6 Pardon some naiveté. Like we said, some of 

7 us are new to the regulated world. And prior 

8 to that, we didn't ever deal with graphs like 

9 this. As I was following it, to be honest, I 

10 lost you. I had no idea what you were 

11 talking about. 

12 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. 

13 MR. GRIFE: And then I was trying to 

14 say well, when you did this chart, did you 

15 come to the analysis well, now that I have 

16 completed my chart you were comfortable with 

17 those numbers. Are those numbers that you 

18 decide, well, if they came back at 1.89, 

19 well, we have to have a whole other meeting 

20 because we are going to be out of business? 

21 So, I wasn't sure where we were going with 

22 that and what we were trying to do. 
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, I guess for all 

2 of the analyses that I am going to discuss, 

3 these are standard, routine analyses that DOE 

4 does for all products. So, for example, the 

5 markups for distribution channels are 

6 something that is done for every single 

7 product that DOE has ever regulated. And 

8 they all use basically the same type of 

9 methodology. There is a great deal of 

10 publicly available information on cost 

11 breakdowns for these different industries. 

12 So, these are in line with the types 

13 of markups you will see for other commercial 

14 products with similar user categories and 

15 similar manufacturing properties. So, in 

16 that sense, there is a reality check on all 

17 of these things. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, what you 

19 can do is write in or comment now about how 

20 your practice, what you experience diverges 

21 from all of this. 

22 Harmon. 
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1 MR. LEWIS: The structural panel 

2 number there at 1.16, 1.09 when you go 

3 through four-inch thick panel to a five-inch 

4 panel, your cure time changes from 30 to 45 

5 minutes. You just lost 33 percent of your 

6 capacity working 80 percent of the hours in a 

7 week. 

8 So, I don't have 33 percent more 

9 capacity. So, I have got to go out and buy 

10 more fixtures. That would be a million 

11 dollars. I have got to build more square 

12 footage on my building because I have got to 

13 have somewhere to put the fixtures because 

14 the panel has to stay in the fixture 50 

15 percent longer, from 30 to 45 minutes. 

16 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. 

17 MR. LEWIS: I can't charge nine 

18 percent more markup and be in business a 

19 couple of months. 

20 MS. COUGHLIN: But again, there is a 

21 markup associated with the manufacturing side 

22 and then there is a markup associated with 
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1 the distribution side. So, this is intended 

2 to only account for the distribution side of 

3 your business. 

4 MR. LEWIS: Okay, so you have got a 

5 chart that talks about the manufacture side. 

6 MS. COUGHLIN: Those are part of the 

7 engineering analysis. 

8 MR. LEWIS: Okay, and they are going 

9 to show a lot of dollars. 

10 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. We visit this, 

11 too, in the MIA, I believe. 

12 MR. LAU: Clarifying. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Christopher. 

14 MR. LAU: Yes, this is Chris Lau. 

15 To clarify it, the manufacturer markups are 

16 taken into account in the manufacturer impact 

17 analysis. And there, we do look at those 

18 conversion costs. We have taken into account 

19 the cost of additional fixtures and capacity 

20 constraints. 

21 MR. LEWIS: And building. 

22 MR. LAU: And building, yes. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Where are 

2 they in the TSD? 

3 MR. LAU: It will be Chapter 12 of 

4 the TSD. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Chapter 12. 

6 Thank you. 

7 MR. LAU: But the building and such 

8 is actually -- Katie is right. And that is 

9 actually part of the engineering analysis, 

10 where they look at the costs of any -- they 

11 basically look at the cost of a ‘‘green field’’ 

12 facility and take that into account in the 

13 MPC, in the manufacturer production costs. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon, you are 

15 next. 

16 MR. McHUGH: Yes, so if you look at 

17 slide 34, it talks about the manufacturer's 

18 markup. I think what wasn't clear, because I 

19 was confused for the first half of this, that 

20 this slide is all about the distribution 

21 markup. And I think a lot of folks here are 

22 talking about the manufacturer's markup 
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1 because they are representing manufacturers. 

2 So the manufacturers' markups on slide 34 

3 talks about 32 percent markup on panels and 

4 there is not an incremental portion -- well, 

5 I guess you are looking at the incremental 

6 part of your teardown analysis. 

7 MS. COUGHLIN: This is the markup 

8 that is used for all the standard levels. 

9 MR. McHUGH: Right. Right, exactly. 

10 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 

11 MR. McHUGH: So, I don't know if 

12 that helps any of you. No? It still 

13 doesn't. Okay. 

14 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, because I 

15 believe the cost model just assembles the 

16 thing from scratch at each efficiency level. 

17 So yes, in this Chevron diagram, 

18 again, there is a markup applied at the level 

19 of the engineering analysis, representing 

20 manufacturer costs. And then there is a 

21 markup again applied in the markup analysis, 

22 which is just the distribution channel. And 
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1 this may seem somewhat artificial in some 

2 cases. This is, again, just to kind of the 

3 routine segmentation of the analysis that DOE 

4 applies. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert. 

6 MR. WILKINS: Katie, I believe I 

7 understand what your assumptions are. And I 

8 think that they have been made clear. And 

9 thank you for making them clear. 

10 Let me put myself in the shoes of 

11 the distributor. And I have been selling 

12 electrical goods for the last 15 years. 

13 Copper has gone up five or ten percent every 

14 year. And I make a 30 percent margin but 

15 when copper goes up, I only inflate it ten 

16 percent because it is only incremental. And 

17 I do it again, and again, and again. And so, 

18 my average margin over time has dropped 

19 because I have only increased, raise prices 

20 for the incremental part of the inflation 

21 that I saw. 

22 So, my distributor margin has gone 
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1 down, down, down. And I am still happy 

2 because it is all incremental. 

3 Life doesn't work that way. These 

4 businesses have to hold their margins up. So 

5 maybe that is true for the first year but 

6 there is a rebound effect. 

7 And I would also contend that 

8 whether that incremental cost increase came 

9 from inflation in copper or from a new 

10 regulation from DOE, the distributor doesn't 

11 care. The distributor has to make his money 

12 and pay his return on investment. And 

13 whether that might be reasonable for an 

14 academic point of view in real life, I have 

15 never seen any evidence that that incremental 

16 approach actually occurs. And I would urge 

17 you to get input from distributors to 

18 actually validate that that is how they price 

19 their goods. I have never seen that in my 

20 business career. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, I think 

22 we are ready to move on. 
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, so moving on to 

2 the energy use. So, this segment of the 

3 analysis, again, there is an energy use 

4 component of the engineering analysis, which 

5 I will not be talking about in detail. But 

6 that energy use looks at either the 

7 construction or the various pieces of the 

8 equipment and develops a detailed model for 

9 predicting energy consumption based on the 

10 design options. 

11 So, for the energy use in this 

12 section of the analysis is to try to predict 

13 the energy use that the user of the equipment 

14 would be seeing. And the purpose of that is 

15 to come up with a value associated with 

16 reductions in that energy use. 

17 So, given the separation in this 

18 analysis of the component, the envelope 

19 components from the refrigeration system we 

20 now have two separate energy use analyses. 

21 We are no longer looking at the assembled 

22 system for the energy use. 
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1 So, for the refrigeration system, 

2 for each equipment class, the energy use 

3 analysis is based on just taking the 

4 capacities that have been chosen for the 

5 analysis points and assuming that they are 

6 assigned to a given refrigeration load that 

7 is appropriate for that capacity. 

8 So in an inverse of the design 

9 process where the customer tells you what 

10 their box size is, the loads, and you choose 

11 the capacity, we are saying okay, we start 

12 with the capacity. Let's assume that this 

13 has been chosen in some reasonable way to go 

14 with the load. 

15 So that refrigeration load 

16 essentially depends on the sizing of the 

17 equipment and the duty cycle. 

18 And in the general definition of the 

19 energy use for the outdoor condensing units, 

20 it also takes into account the variable 

21 ambient temperature conditions. 

22 So, DOE first takes the capacity and 
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1 defines the capacity that it would have in 

2 the test procedure conditions. And then uses 

3 a sizing methodology that was developed based 

4 on comments that were received in the 

5 preliminary analysis, which suggested that 

6 the first thing that you do is calculate a 

7 daily average load and then assume that that 

8 load is met over a 16-hour cycle for coolers 

9 and 18 hours for freezers. Then, there is a 

10 ten percent safety margin for essentially the 

11 oversizing factor. And then DOE has included 

12 an additional ten percent margin for what 

13 they call capacity mismatch, which represents 

14 the fact that whatever the design point for a 

15 system may not be available in the market 

16 exactly. So you have to match whatever 

17 particular capacity sizes are available. 

18 So the combination of those two 

19 margins adds about 20 percent oversizing 

20 overall on the average. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis. 

22 MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. I have a 
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1 question. When you are figuring out this 

2 energy use, and then you are figuring out 

3 with the new system how much less energy it 

4 uses, when you are talking about the existing 

5 system, are you talking about what is the 

6 baseline, what we are calculating as baseline 

7 walk-in description? Does that make sense? 

8 MS. COUGHLIN: So we calculate the 

9 energy use at each efficiency level. 

10 MR. CRAIG: No. It seems to me what 

11 we are saying here is you are calculating the 

12 energy use of an existing baseline unit and 

13 then you are saying you are going to 

14 calculate to level four here. And then we 

15 are going to see how much that saves us. 

16 Correct? Does that make sense? 

17 MS. COUGHLIN: Correct. 

18 MR. CRAIG: Okay. But on the 

19 baseline, are you using the description of 

20 the walk-in that we talked about early that 

21 was wrong? 

22 MS. COUGHLIN: No. 
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1 MR. CRAIG: What are you using? 

2 That's complicated. 

3 MS. COUGHLIN: We are not trying -- 

4 we are just assuming that whatever capacity 

5 has been chosen is suitable for whatever the 

6 system, the walk-in is. DOE is not trying to 

7 describe the walk-in itself. 

8 MR. CRAIG: Well, you have to have a 

9 load. To figure the load with the walk-in, 

10 you would have to know how it was designed. 

11 MS. COUGHLIN: So the load is just, 

12 again, -- 

13 MR. CRAIG: Am I correct? 

14 MS. COUGHLIN: -- it would 

15 essentially be 20 percent -- that the 

16 capacity is 20 percent oversized relative to 

17 the load. And that the load has these duty 

18 cycles. 

19 So, we are not trying to explicitly 

20 model the way the load -- why the load is 

21 what it is. 

22 MR. CRAIG: Okay, I think you are 
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1 talking about refrigeration. 

2 MS. COUGHLIN: This is a 

3 refrigeration system, yes. 

4 MR. CRAIG: Okay, you are not 

5 talking about walk-in panels. 

6 MS. COUGHLIN: No, no panels. That 

7 is the next slide. 

8 MR. CRAIG: Never mind. 

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's let her 

11 finish on this slide. 

12 MS. COUGHLIN: I am finished, 

13 actually. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

15 Robert. 

16 MR. WILKINS: But if you have a 

17 walk-in cooler and it is using X thousand 

18 BTUs and you have made the wall thickness 

19 thicker, and you have improved the door, and 

20 you have done all of these things to the 

21 envelope, then the refrigeration load is 

22 less. 
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: That's correct. 

2 MR. WILKINS: Have you considered 

3 that here? 

4 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, that has been 

5 considered in the LCC. 

6 MR. WILKINS: Okay, thank you. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Ellis? 

8 MR. CRAIG: If it has been 

9 considered, then you must have considered it 

10 off that baseline that you had earlier. 

11 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, I mean we will 

12 get into this in a little more detail but 

13 yes, there are two aspects of it that are 

14 considered. And one of them is that the 

15 capacity at the baseline that is required may 

16 decrease at a higher efficiency level. So, -

17 - 

18 MR. CRAIG: I guess what I am saying 

19 is if some of the -- as I had concern if we 

20 say an existing walk-in or the baseline we 

21 are picking is not the standard in the 

22 industry, then what is standard in the 
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1 industry there would be a less improvement. 

2 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 

3 MR. CRAIG: Okay, and we are not 

4 taking that into consideration. 

5 MS. COUGHLIN: We are taking that 

6 into consideration. It doesn't appear here. 

7 So, this is still kind of just an 

8 analysis approach, that for every efficiency 

9 level that we have considered, coming up with 

10 an energy use number. The question of how 

11 those represent the actual conditions, we 

12 will get to later. 

13 MR. CRAIG: Okay, thank you. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

15 MS. COUGHLIN: So, for the envelope 

16 components, this is a relatively simplified 

17 approach. Again, the issue here for DOE is 

18 that you need to stick pretty close to the 

19 test procedure in evaluating these 

20 components. So the energy use estimates for 

21 the envelope are based essentially on 

22 transmission loads and the transmission loads 
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1 are calculated under the test procedure 

2 conditions. 

3 In addition to that, if there is a 

4 direct electrical component energy use in the 

5 door, particularly, that is included in the 

6 energy consumption for the door. And, if 

7 there is an additional refrigeration load 

8 created by the energy use of those 

9 components, that is included in the 

10 transmission calculation. 

11 And these efficiency metrics were 

12 calculated for the doors, based on three door 

13 sizes. So it is a per door metric. And for 

14 the panels, it is essentially converted to an 

15 intensity number. So it is an energy loss, 

16 essentially, per square foot. 

17 So, the upshot for the refrigeration 

18 systems is that DOE arrives at with the two 

19 oversized factors an assumption that the duty 

20 cycle is 13.3 hours per day for coolers on 

21 average, in a field, and 15 for freezers. 

22 And we would welcome any additional 
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1 comment or data on these assumptions. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis. 

3 MR. CRAIG: Didn't I just see that 

4 other chart you had a different amount of run 

5 time? 

6 MS. COUGHLIN: That was 18 and 16 

7 before the oversize factors are applied. 

8 MR. CRAIG: Okay, thank you. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments on 

10 these values, 13.3 and 15? Mike. 

11 MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub. I guess I 

12 don't understand the use of these numbers 

13 when the 1250 standard has a different set of 

14 values. So, how did you decide that these 

15 were better values than the values that are 

16 going to be regulated for the other parts of 

17 the system? 

18 MS. COUGHLIN: That was based on 

19 comments received from the preliminary 

20 analysis. 

21 MR. STRAUB: So is the suggestion to 

22 change the test procedure? 
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: No, the suggestion 

2 was to change these assumptions for the 

3 energy use analysis. 

4 In the NOPR, in the section on 

5 energy use analysis, you can read a summary 

6 of the comments that were received from the 

7 stakeholders and what the reasoning was to 

8 change the assumptions. 

9 MR. STRAUB: Okay. I guess I don't 

10 understand. You are using these values but 

11 the refrigeration system values are different 

12 values, much lower numbers with respect to -- 

13 MS. COUGHLIN: The AHRI is 8 and 16 

14 for -- 

15 MR. STRAUB: It's 7.2 and 12.8. 

16 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, so DOE went with 

17 the preliminary analysis using those 

18 assumptions and received comments saying no, 

19 those are wrong, these are the ones you 

20 should use. So, DOE switched to these 

21 numbers. 

22 MR. STRAUB: So, I guess are you 
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1 indicating that the 1250 standard needs to be 

2 changed? 

3 MS. COUGHLIN: No. 

4 MR. STRAUB: So we are going to have 

5 different values for determining the energy. 

6 MS. COUGHLIN: Well, again, this is 

7 not part of the test procedure. This is to 

8 translate the energy use to discuss the 

9 energy use in the field. 

10 MR. STRAUB: I understand. But you 

11 are basing the energy use and then the 

12 performance or the benefit of additional 

13 technologies to improve on that. And if this 

14 baseline number of hours per day is higher 

15 than what the standard is or the test 

16 procedure is for the refrigeration system, 

17 then you are elevating the baseline where you 

18 are coming from. 

19 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, there is a 

20 disconnect that people commented on. And I 

21 am not going to comment on that further. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis. 
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1 MR. CRAIG: I agree with your point 

2 down there that if we are making the numbers 

3 fit according to make it save more money, 

4 that is kind of scary to me because we are 

5 using this formula or this test procedure to 

6 come up with actual values that we're 

7 confident in and yet, we are going to change 

8 these so that it will look like it would 

9 maybe save us more money. And, therefore, it 

10 throws us into Category 4 because the benefit 

11 is so good, then our analysis is off to the 

12 point that we are coming to the conclusion 

13 that the risk versus the benefit, Category 4 

14 is where we ought to be. But if the benefit 

15 isn't that much, maybe Category 2 is where we 

16 would be or Category 3 is where we should be. 

17 So, I have a hard time with the 

18 baseline that of modifying these things and 

19 saying they run longer. That doesn't make 

20 sense. 

21 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. Once again, 

22 DOE made the modifications based on 
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1 stakeholder comment that industry practice is 

2 better represented by what is in the current 

3 analysis. If you would like to comment on 

4 that further, please, that is very welcome. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Joanna. 

6 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I think 

7 the purpose of the energy analysis is to try 

8 to come up with the best estimate of what 

9 actual energy use is in the field, or some 

10 distribution of energy use, which may or may 

11 not line up exactly with what is in the test 

12 procedure. But I think DOE is attempting to, 

13 in the energy analysis, really reflect what 

14 the equipment will use in the field, not as 

15 tested. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie 

17 Stephens. 

18 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. I 

19 have been doing this a long time and it is 

20 rare that I have seen a case where whatever 

21 is used in the test procedure actually lines 

22 up with the real world, but then there is two 
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1 different purposes. 

2 Generally, the test procedure is for 

3 rating one system or one piece of equipment 

4 against another or against a standard against 

5 a repeatable set of conditions. And there is 

6 nothing repeatable about what I find in the 

7 field. 

8 So, it is basically, I don't 

9 necessarily see the alignment that has to be 

10 there. In some cases, it is better that it 

11 is. But I did run some numbers based on what 

12 was in the old analysis. I didn't comment on 

13 this particular thing in the original 

14 analysis but I am fairly confident that the 

15 change from what we had in the previous 

16 analysis to this one will make virtually no 

17 difference in what decision would come out on 

18 this particular issue, in terms of energy 

19 use. 

20 In other words, if I use the energy 

21 use on the one-hour less difference, I don't 

22 think you would arrive at a different 
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1 conclusion. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey. 

3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I 

4 guess I get drawn to that 13.3 hours per day 

5 figure as the run time. And having sort of a 

6 contrary mind, it leads me to think if it is 

7 only running 60 percent of the time, that 

8 would sort of suggest that if I had a 

9 modulating compressor, it would run the 

10 evaporator a little bit warmer and that would 

11 tremendously affect the amount of defrost I 

12 might have to do. 

13 And what we have here, it seems to 

14 me without being an expert on the rating 

15 method, that 1250 is working against what we 

16 are really trying to achieve in energy 

17 savings by the way it is not looking 

18 appropriately, as I understand it, and I need 

19 to reread it, at part load efficiency. So we 

20 are getting an interactive effect that 

21 compounds some of the problems of looking at 

22 our energy saving potential. 
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1 End of rant. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Go ahead, 

3 Robert. 

4 MR. WILKINS: I was sitting here 

5 trying to figure out how to comment on this 

6 in a succinct sort of way and Harvey always 

7 does it better than I. But if that unit is 

8 only running 13 to 15 hours per day, there is 

9 huge energy saving possibilities by dialing 

10 it down and running it at part load 

11 conditions and save 30 percent or 40 percent 

12 of the energy. A huge amount of energy 

13 savings compared to the amounts that we are 

14 trying to eke out at full load conditions. 

15 But this refrigeration system is not 

16 going to be rated to perform at these part 

17 load conditions, it is going to be rated at 

18 full load conditions. 

19 So, we are losing an opportunity to 

20 achieve huge energy savings in a system 

21 approach, by managing the individual 

22 components. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 

2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and I 

3 just want to add to that. We really don't 

4 sing in harmony very often but it escapes me 

5 now. 

6 MR. WILKINS: You're not that old. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please say 

8 your name. 

9 MR. HAALA: Hi, This is Andrew Haala 

10 with Hussmann. 

11 Were these hours just used in the 

12 economic basis or were these also used to 

13 figure out the AWEF values? 

14 MS. COUGHLIN: I am going to pass 

15 that to the engineering team. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Rebecca. 

17 MS. LEGETT: The AWEF values in the 

18 engineering analysis are based on rating, 

19 using the test procedure, the AHRI 1250 test 

20 procedure. I believe these values here are 

21 used for economic analysis. 

22 MR. HAALA: Okay. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

2 MR. STEPHENS: Well, let me just add 

3 that this is a common problem. Part load is 

4 almost never accounted for in test 

5 procedures. We have been asking AHRI for a 

6 very, very long time why there is no test 

7 procedure at all for variable capacity 

8 refrigerant-based heat pumps and air 

9 conditioning systems but so far it hasn't 

10 gotten us a test procedure that would look at 

11 part load. 

12 So, it is not uncommon that the test 

13 procedure can't reflect all of the 

14 opportunities that there are but yes, it is 

15 probably the case. In case it exists and we 

16 will have to change -- 

17 MR. WILKINS: Well it is the chicken 

18 and the egg. You have got to start 

19 somewhere. 

20 MR. STEPHENS: Well, we usually 

21 start by measuring and we can do that. And I 

22 am working with some manufacturers to 
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1 actually do that but it may be a while before 

2 we get a test procedure, years in fact. And 

3 I think we are kind of stuck with what we 

4 have. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 MR. SACHS: I remember now what I 

7 wanted to add. This is Harvey. 

8 The first rule I learned in this 

9 field was that nobody ever called a plumber 

10 at midnight on Christmas to complain that his 

11 boiler was too large. In the same sense, my 

12 instinct tells me that the actual oversize in 

13 the refrigeration system is generally 

14 probably larger than is reflected in your ten 

15 percent adjustment for capacity 

16 discontinuities. 

17 And to the extent that the actual 

18 installed system is more oversized, which may 

19 be reflecting fears of climate warming or 

20 something else, to the extent that it is 

21 oversized, we are actually underestimating 

22 the potential value of modulating compressor 
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1 and other valuable capacity alternatives. 

2 This is important. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

4 MR. McHUGH: So, I think there is a 

5 number of folks in this room that were 

6 involved in the AHRI 1250 standard 

7 development. And you know there was a 

8 consensus agreement on how many hours to use 

9 for -- number of hours, or fraction of time, 

10 or duty cycle that it cycled on and off. And 

11 to some extent, AHRI 1250 does account for 

12 part load operation. The issue, though, is 

13 that -- my understanding is that this 

14 analysis is assuming kind of a worst case. 

15 It is not requiring that all dedicated 

16 condensing units be variable refrigerant 

17 flow. 

18 So, the assumption is that these 

19 compressors are cycling on and off and the 

20 AHRI 1250 has a method for evaluating 

21 compressors cycling on and off. And so you 

22 can take account for if you have fan control. 
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1 So are you dropping the fan speed during the 

2 off cycle, are you not? Those kinds of 

3 things are actually captured in the AWEF 

4 calculation. 

5 The DOE test procedure they have 

6 already essentially agreed to use AHRI 1250. 

7 I actually think there are some problems with 

8 AHRI 1250. But the fact is when they came 

9 back and then said well, we are going to 

10 start off with the assumptions that are in 

11 AHRI 1250, they got comments and people said 

12 no, we actually think that the oversizing is 

13 less bad than what the AHRI 1250 assumes. 

14 And so, as a result, they are responding to 

15 that. 

16 Do we actually then cycle back 

17 around and re-modify 1250? We could, right? 

18 I mean there is nothing that stops us. But 

19 my assumption is that DOE is going to -- 

20 right now in the status of you have adopted 

21 AHRI 1250, whatever the year is, I don't 

22 know, it is 2012 -- what's that-- 2009. 
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1 You know it is something that could 

2 be improved in the future but I guess the 

3 question is, is what are expecting, given 

4 that some folks are saying that things are 

5 oversized even more. And it is not 

6 surprising things are oversized because of 

7 the health. It is not like a house you got 

8 too hot. If you don't have enough capacity, 

9 you spoil food, and someone dies, that is a 

10 bigger deal. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We are going 

12 to move on now. 

13 MS. COUGHLIN: I will just make sure 

14 that if people would like to read the 

15 comments that were submitted on the sizing 

16 issue after the preliminary analysis, they 

17 are published in the NOPR notice. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis has got 

19 a quick comment. 

20 MR. CRAIG: Just one simple 

21 question. When the interested parties send 

22 in the new information that the DOE decided 
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1 to take, was that done out of an opinion or 

2 was it done out of field testing? 

3 MS. COUGHLIN: You mean the 

4 comments? 

5 MR. CRAIG: Yes, was it based on 

6 field testing of what actually is going on 

7 out there or was it based on what people 

8 think was going on out there? 

9 MS. COUGHLIN: I'm not going to -- 

10 MR. LEWIS: We provided a number of 

11 those comments. What we have got is the way 

12 we size refrigeration, and we don't oversize 

13 it, Harvey, because we are in a competitive 

14 marketplace, and we go ahead and do the heat 

15 load computation on the envelope. There is a 

16 ten percent safety factor that everybody from 

17 Bohn, Russell, whoever does for the 

18 randomness of what the restaurant people do 

19 that they don't tell you they do, and then we 

20 take a five percent cushion on that number 

21 and pick the next available matched system 

22 size because the more you go over, the more 
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1 it costs. 

2 If you go over very much, it short 

3 cycles. It doesn't work. And we have got to 

4 fix everything that doesn't work. So, we 

5 don't go crazy. And we also can't afford to 

6 tell everybody ‘‘okay one horse would do,’’ I 

7 am going to sell you two horse so you never 

8 call me. Because they are going to call me 

9 because it is going to be just too humid in 

10 there because you are not going to control 

11 humidity. 

12 So, there is a lot of scientific to 

13 this short of rocket science. And what we 

14 have got, Ellis, is 50 years of doing 

15 business and at least 30 years since I did 

16 the computer program on this methodology in 

17 consult with Bohn and later with Russell. 

18 And you know, we have got two people a year 

19 out of 2,000 sales that we get into. Most of 

20 the time, they have done something they 

21 didn't tell you about. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'm eager for 
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1 us to move on. Thank you Harmon. 

2 MS. COUGHLIN: So we will be moving 

3 now into the life-cycle cost and payback 

4 period analysis. 

5 So again, this is the life-cycle 

6 cost now from the perspective of the 

7 purchaser of the equipment. 

8 So the purpose of the life-cycle 

9 cost is to develop particularly the life10 cycle cost savings that the customer will see 

11 under a potential standard level and 

12 determine whether there are savings. 

13 Our convention is to define the 

14 savings as a positive number. So, when you 

15 see a positive number, that means the 

16 consumer ends up with some extra cash in 

17 their pocket. And a negative number means 

18 they are losing money on the standard. 

19 So the basic idea with the life20 cycle cost, again, there is a lot of detail, 

21 but conceptually, it is very simple. You 

22 have the purchase price plus the installation 
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1 cost that gives what we call the total 

2 installed cost. And then you have the 

3 operating expenses, which is a combination of 

4 energy costs to run the equipment and then 

5 any maintenance costs and repair costs that 

6 occur on a regular basis. 

7 So, those two terms provide the 

8 life-cycle cost. And over the lifetime of 

9 the equipment, DOE follows standard 

10 accounting practices and discounts the 

11 operating costs to arrive at a net present 

12 value, which is the single life-cycle cost 

13 number that we use. 

14 So, when we look at the different 

15 standard levels, we look at the change in the 

16 total installed cost, which is an expense 

17 that purchaser has, and then we look at the 

18 change in the operating costs, which are 

19 savings to the purchaser. And the balance of 

20 those two gives the change in the life-cycle 

21 cost. 

22 And because there are very many 
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1 individual conditions, such as cost of 

2 capital, electricity prices, details about 

3 the particular segment, industry segment and 

4 how they use the equipment, DOE uses a Monte 

5 Carlo simulation method, which is just a way 

6 to take say instead of using a single number 

7 to represent the discount rate for a user, we 

8 use a distribution and we sample a bunch of 

9 different values from that distribution. So, 

10 that is done for lifetimes, for discount 

11 rates, and energy prices are usually not 

12 random but they have a lot of detail in them 

13 at the regional level and also by business 

14 type. 

15 So, when we define the life-cycle 

16 cost savings, we choose a base case and we 

17 compare that to the standards case. 

18 Now, the base case here is not the 

19 same as the baseline in the engineering. So, 

20 this is where we attempt to look at the 

21 actual market for the equipment at the time 

22 when the standard would be enacted. So 
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1 again, there is a great deal of detail. 

2 Actually, if you have the notice, 

3 there is a table in the notice, Table IV-16, 

4 that gives you a breakdown of the base case 

5 assumptions about efficiency in the 

6 marketplace. The highlights are, I think 

7 about -- for the refrigeration equipment, I 

8 believe 75 percent of the market is assumed 

9 to be at the baseline in the engineering and 

10 25 percent is more efficient. 

11 I think for display doors, it is 

12 reversed; 75 percent of the market for 

13 display doors is assumed to be above the 

14 minimum standard and 25 percent is at the 

15 baseline. And then there is a little more 

16 detail on how those things are defined in the 

17 NOPR. 

18 And again, for these products, 

19 because they haven't been previously 

20 regulated, there is not a lot of information 

21 about the current market. And if anyone 

22 would like to comment on those assumptions, 
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1 we can incorporate those comments into the 

2 analysis. 

3 The other metric that DOE calculates 

4 is called the payback period or simple 

5 payback. This is the ratio of the magnitude 

6 of the change in total installed cost to the 

7 magnitude of the operating cost savings. And 

8 this is if you don't discount the operating 

9 costs, this is essentially the number of 

10 years it takes to pay back your initial 

11 investment. 

12 So, if the total installed cost goes 

13 up by say $100, the operating costs go down 

14 by $50, then I am going to get a payback of 

15 two years. In two years of reduced operating 

16 costs, I recover my initial investment. 

17 So, this flow chart is again, it is 

18 a somewhat generic flow chart. It describes 

19 these analyses that DOE does are essentially 

20 very similar for all products. So, if we 

21 start at the left-hand side of the chart, the 

22 output that we want is the life-cycle cost. 
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1 So, moving towards the -- sorry, the right2 hand side moving toward to the left. So, the 

3 two primary inputs to the LCC are the 

4 lifetime operating expense and the total 

5 installed cost. 

6 The total installed cost is a 

7 composition of the customer price and 

8 installation cost and everything that went 

9 into the customer price that we have already 

10 discussed is tabulated over there at the far 

11 left of the chart. 

12 And then on the bottom, we have at 

13 the far right we want to calculate the 

14 lifetime operating expense. So, the way that 

15 is done in the model is to calculate an 

16 annual operating expense associated with this 

17 energy use and the energy price. The 

18 lifetime of the equipment, which is going to 

19 be a variable chosen from a distribution. 

20 There is a discount rate which is appropriate 

21 to a particular business type, and then we 

22 also incorporate electricity price trends 
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1 into these analyses. 

2 Included in the annual operating 

3 expense are repair costs and maintenance 

4 costs. There can be a bit of an overlap 

5 between the two conceptually but repair costs 

6 are generally, something is actually broken 

7 say once every several years and is routinely 

8 being repaired. And we take those costs and 

9 we annualize them and add them to the annual 

10 operating expense. 

11 Maintenance costs are things that 

12 are much more sort of routine maintenance to 

13 keep the equipment functioning. 

14 And energy consumption, we have 

15 already discussed. 

16 So, in slightly more detail, the 

17 installation costs, there is the RSMeans 

18 Mechanical Costs Data Handbook, which is used 

19 to estimate labor and materials cost 

20 associated with installation; also used to 

21 estimate maintenance costs. 

22 Discount rates, there is a database 
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1 online, which DOE uses to develop discount 

2 rates for say food sales, food services, 

3 whatever sub-sectors are relevant to the 

4 equipment. 

5 Electricity prices for this analysis 

6 were based on data collected by the energy 

7 information agency. They do a very, very 

8 broad ranging data collection activity that 

9 allows DOE to estimate prices both by region 

10 and by customer sector. 

11 And then the electricity price 

12 trend, since this is discussing the future, 

13 the standard is expected to come into effect 

14 in 2017 and the analysis period is 30 years 

15 long. DOE uses the Annual Energy Outlook or 

16 AEO, the most recently published version to 

17 get the electricity price projections over 

18 the lifetime of the equipment. 

19 For the lifetime, there is, DOE 

20 uses, again it is a standard thing, in 

21 failure analysis the Weibull distribution 

22 with a median lifetime. And minimum and 
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1 maximum lifetimes are somewhat arbitrary 

2 because they don't really affect the analysis 

3 very much. So, this is the set of values 

4 that were used in this analysis for the 

5 doors, the refrigeration system and the 

6 envelope. 

7 There has been some discussion of 

8 the difference -- in the preliminary 

9 analysis, there was some discussion of the 

10 difference between the economic lifetime and 

11 the physical lifetime. The physical lifetime 

12 is the time to mechanical failure. The 

13 economic lifetime is the time that the unit 

14 is in use before it is thrown away, 

15 essentially. 

16 The economic lifetime is the one 

17 that is relevant to this analysis. 

18 So essentially, these lifetime 

19 differences, they are pretty small. The fact 

20 that the envelope is 15 years and the 

21 refrigeration system is 12 years has very 

22 little impact on the overall analysis. 
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1 Any comment? 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do we have a 

3 comment or a question? 

4 MS. COUGHLIN: Comments? Questions? 

5 So, one of the issues that came up 

6 in the preliminary analysis is the relative 

7 rapid turnover of some small businesses and 

8 the likelihood that they are using used 

9 equipment, rather than new equipment. So, 

10 DOE would be interested in understanding 

11 anything that anyone can share with us about 

12 the market for used equipment and whether 

13 that is likely to be affected by the passage 

14 of the standard. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And further, 

16 as you see in the comment box, if the useful 

17 life of the refrigeration system will be 12 

18 years and other components 15 years due to 

19 active use equipment. What do you think, are 

20 those close to the mark? David. 

21 MR. GRIFE: David from Arctic. I 

22 was listening to this whole thing and it 
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1 seems like a lot of it is about making sure 

2 that we do justify that we are setting these 

3 new energy standards then they will have 

4 payback in energy to our user. I'm not sure 

5 though if we are doing it from the end and 

6 trying to work our way back or we are letting 

7 information flow and really seeing if it very 

8 profitable or more efficient from an energy. 

9 But this is true, the industry does have such 

10 a huge rate of turnover, more than anybody 

11 else. 

12 I mean, I have customers say to me I 

13 don't know if we are going to be in business 

14 in two years. I don't know if I can afford 

15 all of the LED lights and all these energy 

16 efficiencies. I may not be around. 

17 So, these do need to be looked at. 

18 Twelve, fifteen years is a long time. We do 

19 have a lot of these that are small businesses 

20 and they may not be using the same standards. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Fred? 

22 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I have 
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1 some issue with average lifetime for doors. 

2 The doors are the only moving part in the 

3 envelope and they are the only ones that get 

4 abuse and serious abuse. And I have never 

5 seen one last 14 years. Very, very seldom. 

6 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

8 MR. MINELLI: So, I think that 

9 number is very high. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert. 

11 MR. WILKINS: With most of our 

12 customers, a typical replacement of the 

13 entire box is ten years. And it is through 

14 abuse. It is not because of something 

15 happens. It doesn't just disintegrate. It 

16 is through abuse. 

17 So, in that ten years before 

18 replacing the entire box, they probably would 

19 replace the door three times. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon, I saw 

21 you giving the signal. What is your 

22 question? 
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1 MR. LEWIS: Yes, I think you are 

2 probably in the ten-year realm. The doors 

3 are protected with a kick plate, perhaps, 

4 both in and out to keep the abuse down would 

5 be good. We sell probably, along with 2,000 

6 new walk-ins each year we are selling, we 

7 probably sell 100 replacement doors -- not 

8 for those but for the 40,000 walk-ins we have 

9 made before that. A lot of those walk-ins 

10 have disappeared out of the marketplace but 

11 people that do continue to operate, 

12 particularly chain accounts, they are not 

13 going to turn that equipment over like the 

14 small restaurants. They will be there 15 and 

15 20 years because we have got corporate 

16 clients that are like that and they will buy 

17 a door maybe every 10 or 15 years but they 

18 bought kick plates at the start. So, they 

19 spent $200 to save a $1,000 later on. So, 

20 it's all in what they can afford. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, 

22 Fred. 
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1 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I want 

2 to add that that is probably true for foot 

3 traffic boxes. But for pallet jacks, lift 

4 trucks, there is no way. They just will not 

5 last that long. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, final 

7 comments here? Yes, Robert. 

8 MR. WILKINS: Just a brief comment. 

9 It seems to me this horizon viewpoint is one 

10 issue. And I don't know how analytically to 

11 deal with it. But if I am a restaurant, I 

12 don't care what is going on two or four years 

13 out, I have just got to survive this year and 

14 the next. And it creates this very short15 term mentality. I think you are probably on 

16 the right track but you have just got to 

17 consider that factor. 

18 The other thing that I would say is 

19 listening to this, the refrigeration life is 

20 12 years and the box is 15 years. There is 

21 no way that you are going to replace a 12-

22 year-old refrigeration system if you don't 
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1 expect the box to live but three more years, 

2 or vice-versa. So there is kind of a 

3 practical assumption of what is the life of 

4 the system. It is just like your car. You 

5 are not going to replace the engine if you 

6 have got 200,000 miles on it, even if the 

7 rest of the car has two more years on it. 

8 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So these are 

9 statistical means which allows for a lot of 

10 detailed matching of these things. 

11 MR. WILKINS: I realize that and I 

12 appreciate the dilemma you have but then you 

13 have got to come down to a practical 

14 assumption that it is only going to last -- 

15 if one of the two major components fails in 

16 12 years, the whole thing is gone and you 

17 start over. 

18 MS. COUGHLIN: So, I guess that 

19 would be -- so, I would like to clarify 

20 because this is an important component of the 

21 modeling. 

22 It is a statement then that if a 
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1 refrigeration system fails, that the user 

2 will actually rebuild the box? 

3 MR. WILKINS: Well, if he looks at 

4 his box and says it is only going to last 

5 another year or two, am I really going to 

6 invest in a 12-year refrigeration system? 

7 Practically, no. 

8 MS. COUGHLIN: But the question is 

9 so that is what they would hypothetically do. 

10 I guess what I am wondering is does anyone 

11 know what people actually do? Is there a 

12 clear trend in the industry for both the 

13 envelope and the refrigeration system to be 

14 replaced simultaneously? 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon. 

16 MR. LEWIS: Yes, Harmon with 

17 American Panel. What we will see the whole 

18 refrigeration system doesn't fail. 

19 Typically, it is going to the compressor. 

20 The condenser, if they clean it, it is okay. 

21 The controls are okay. And within the unit 

22 cooler, typically it is an evaporator fan 
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1 motor. 

2 In hard economic times, we sell 

3 fewer new walk-ins and we sell more 

4 replacement doors and more replacement fan 

5 motors and the like. So, it is all in what 

6 people can afford and that market will adapt. 

7 But customers are going to look at it, if I 

8 can afford a new walk-in, rather than a door, 

9 maybe it is time to do it. But if I can't, 

10 I'll put the door on now and two years from 

11 now when I have made some more money, they 

12 will do it. 

13 Even our big chain accounts, they 

14 wouldn't invest on a two-year payback on LED 

15 lights. They just won't. And this is people 

16 we sell 100 walk-ins a year to because that 

17 is too long and they are looking at things 20 

18 years down the road. So, there is going to 

19 be some economic part there that just doesn't 

20 match your model. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

22 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, 
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1 Air Conditioning Contractors of America. I 

2 am going to add something, too, which is the 

3 depreciation schedule on this equipment 

4 doesn't line up with the expected life span. 

5 So, a restaurant or facility owner doesn't 

6 see incentive. Now, that is not something 

7 that DOE can do anything about. I will take 

8 that to Congress and the Treasury. 

9 But I did want to say that I think 

10 this is a very important question if you are 

11 looking for input on. But nobody in this 

12 room right now can really speak to this. And 

13 I would suggest that DOE reach out to 

14 restaurant, convenience stores, whoever it is 

15 that has this equipment. 

16 So often we see the entity not at 

17 the table in the room discussing it is the 

18 one that finds themselves regulated or the 

19 one holding the bag, so to speak. So, my 

20 suggestion is DOE reach out to the Restaurant 

21 Association and anybody else who may provide 

22 a better idea of whether this is reasonable 
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1 or so that DOE can better understand the 

2 useful life. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

4 Yes, Fred? 

5 MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli. I would 

6 like to add to that that cooler and freezers, 

7 our industry is really segmented. The food 

8 service is way different than supermarkets 

9 and big box clubs and they are different than 

10 convenience stores. 

11 Probably a better breakdown would be 

12 a segmented breakdown and that big box and 

13 supermarkets, ten years max for the entire 

14 box and the doors will be changed three times 

15 in that ten years. That is an honest number. 

16 That is a real number. 

17 But in food service, where you don't 

18 have pallet jacks and lift trucks, you can 

19 get ten years. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

21 you. Charlie. 

22 MR. STEPHENS: I would add one thing 
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1 here, especially when it comes to things like 

2 LED lights. There is a lot of things that 

3 people invest in that are not based on a 

4 payback period. I don't think we know 

5 anybody who is buying LED lights right now at 

6 the cost that they are for the energy payback 

7 compared to fluorescent. It's not there. 

8 They buy them for other values like they 

9 don't change the color of what they shine on. 

10 If you really want what you are lighting up 

11 to be its true color, LEDs do a much better 

12 job than a lot of other lighting products 

13 that are reasonably efficient. The other 

14 thing is, they hold up on off cycles. 

15 Maintenance is a big factor. You know, you 

16 don't have to change the things out. And if 

17 it is hard to do that, then it is a real big 

18 value to you. 

19 So you know, I wouldn't be making 

20 all those decisions that I am seeing, in some 

21 of these cases, just on energy payback, even 

22 though that tends to be what the analysis is 
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1 all about. That would be a mistake. But I 

2 also would value the comment of what the 

3 other Charlie just said. I think this is an 

4 important enough issue that it would merit 

5 some research to get some better answers, if 

6 we can. 

7 MS. COUGHLIN: DOE did receive, did 

8 reach out to I believe the Food Equipment 

9 Manufacturers Association and the National 

10 Restaurant Association, who submitted data on 

11 shipments. So, there is an overall 

12 consistency check again that we can do on the 

13 shipments model. If the lifetimes are 

14 completely wrong, you are not going to be 

15 able to predict shipments correctly. 

16 So, in an average sense, this does 

17 not deal with change of ownership. It just 

18 says that if say in a small restaurant space 

19 something gets installed, it is going to be 

20 stay there around 10 to 15 years. So that 

21 means if the business owner is turning over, 

22 they are coming in and using the equipment 
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1 that is already there. That appears to be 

2 consistent with what we have currently on 

3 shipments data. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jim. 

5 MR. KINSER: Jim Kinser. It has 

6 just been our experience that pizza stores 

7 and C stores generally will move locations or 

8 at least remodel every ten years. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

10 you. Let's move on. 

11 MS. COUGHLIN: So maintenance costs 

12 were based on what is in the RS Means report 

13 for this type of equipment. They are not 

14 broken down into dealing with the 

15 refrigeration system versus the rest of the 

16 system. So, DOE, after reviewing the various 

17 relevant activities associated with 

18 refrigeration maintenance, arrived at a 

19 figure of approximately $150 a year for the 

20 refrigeration system and the remainder 

21 assigned to envelope maintenance. 

22 These are not currently expected to 
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1 change with efficiency level. However, when 

2 an efficiency level involves a change in the 

3 lighting type, then the lighting maintenance 

4 costs are included for that efficiency level. 

5 So, DOE would like to refine its 

6 understanding of the costs associated with 

7 refrigerants and refrigerant charges and 

8 would appreciate any comment on that. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What do you 

10 think? Yes, Buzz. 

11 MR. SCHAEFFER: I have a question. 

12 You are saying that you are assuming that the 

13 maintenance will not change. 

14 MS. COUGHLIN: Routine maintenance. 

15 Repair costs is a different thing and that 

16 does change with efficiency level. So, 

17 things like replacing the compressor or 

18 something like that would scale with the 

19 price of the equipment. 

20 MR. SCHAEFFER: Okay. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon? 

22 MR. LEWIS: As far as the 
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1 maintenance cost, the warranty claims that we 

2 are dealing with around the country, the 

3 average refrigeration guy is $50 to $75 an 

4 hour in travel time. So it would seem like 

5 that those numbers are probably a little low 

6 compared to even if somebody signed the 

7 maintenance contract with them, they are 

8 still going to be paying over half of that. 

9 So, it may be double what is there. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

11 you. Charlie. 

12 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 

13 Yes, be careful when you read this. These 

14 are annualized numbers. So, if you get your 

15 refrigeration guy to show up for $500 every 

16 three years, it actually translates to a 

17 number that looks kind of like that. So, I 

18 mean you have got to be -- it is annualized. 

19 So it is not -- because some things don't 

20 happen every year. So I just caution people 

21 when you read that that this is annual 

22 number. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional 

2 thoughts on maintenance costs? Okay. 

3 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So, that is 

4 the end of the description of the LCC. And 

5 then I will be presenting some LCC results 

6 for TSLs. I wanted to comment on the process 

7 that is used to define the TSLs before we 

8 move there because it is a little 

9 complicated, especially having moved from the 

10 analysis of assembled units to this 

11 component-based analysis. 

12 So, terminology-wise, the analysis 

13 points that we are studying in the 

14 engineering are referred to as efficiency 

15 levels. They represent a particular set of 

16 design options, to which you can assign a 

17 cost and an energy use. 

18 So, those efficiency levels are 

19 then, in a preliminary step, DOE generates 

20 LCC results for each product class and 

21 capacity point independently simply to look 

22 at the cost effectiveness relative to the 
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1 baseline within that equipment class of a 

2 particular set of design options. 

3 So, this is sort of a screening 

4 analysis that allows you to, first of all, 

5 get a general picture of the relationship 

6 between improved efficiency and overall cost, 

7 independent say of compressor technology and 

8 to eliminate from the overall picture those 

9 technology pathways that don't appear to be 

10 cost-effective because the assumption is no 

11 one would do that in reality. 

12 So this preliminary step, then, 

13 considers the refrigeration system in 

14 isolation and only looks at what would be 

15 cost-effective to implement. 

16 Then, to do the trial standard 

17 levels, since DOE is jointly regulating the 

18 refrigeration system and the envelope 

19 components and they have some influence on 

20 one another, DOE takes the results from the 

21 refrigeration system analysis, chooses some 

22 representative points, cost and efficiency 
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1 and then for those set of representative 

2 efficiencies, it goes forward and does the 

3 energy consumption numbers for the panels and 

4 doors. So, essentially it gives you the 

5 selected AWEF and other factors necessary to 

6 compute the losses for a particular 

7 efficiency level for the doors and panels. 

8 And then in proceeding to the final 

9 selection of the trial standard level, this 

10 is going to be a selection of efficiency 

11 levels for the components and the 

12 refrigeration system altogether. You look at 

13 the sum total of the interaction and the 

14 independent energy savings and NPV, and then 

15 the interaction of those two. 

16 So, the final set of TSLs is really 

17 chosen -- since we have many, many, many 

18 design options, you can see we have many, 

19 many, many possible combinations of 

20 refrigeration systems in various door and 

21 panel selections. The final set of TSLs is 

22 really just chosen to represent the full 
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1 range of costs and benefits. So, we always 

2 have the bottom, which is the baseline, the 

3 top which is max tech, and then some points 

4 in-between that represent that range. 

5 So this is discussed in detail in 

6 Appendix 10(D) of the TSD. But again, the 

7 main thing to keep in mind is that when we 

8 move from talking about efficiency levels to 

9 TSLs, a TSL is a prescription of an 

10 efficiency level for everything, all the 

11 equipment classes and that it does consider 

12 the interaction effects between the envelope 

13 and the refrigeration system. 

14 Again, tables of results were 

15 presented in both the NOPR Federal Register 

16 document and in the TSD. So, this is 

17 typically what the tables will look like. We 

18 present the results for the equipment class. 

19 So, the results for specific capacity points 

20 have been averaged, using shipments to weight 

21 those averages. And the columns first 

22 present the average life-cycle cost for the 
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1 chosen standard level and the LCC savings. 

2 So, this is relative to the base case, which 

3 incorporates a mix of efficiencies. Then the 

4 three percentages that follow take your 

5 consumer population and segment them into 

6 those who have a net cost under the standard, 

7 those who have a net benefit under the 

8 standard, and those who are not impacted by 

9 the standard. 

10 So for example, in the first row for 

11 the -- this is dedicated condenser, medium 

12 temperature outdoor units, essentially 100 

13 percent of the consumers in the sample see a 

14 benefit associated with this TSL. And the 

15 final column is this payback period, which is 

16 two years. 

17 And for the refrigeration systems, 

18 pretty much the only the dedicated condensing 

19 medium indoor and low outdoor have a few 

20 percent of the consumer population actually 

21 has a net cost associated with the standard. 

22 But for the rest, the overwhelming majority 
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1 have a net benefit. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Ellis? 

3 MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. It seems 

4 to me there is a lot higher payback, as you 

5 talked about, on refrigeration than there is 

6 on the panel structures, if you look at that. 

7 And I was wonder why if you look at panel 

8 return on investment in two years, why they 

9 would pick such a high class of performance 

10 in comparison to what is done in 

11 refrigeration. In other words, we are moving 

12 our standard way up and the payback is 

13 terrible, okay over five years. Whereas, if 

14 you look at refrigeration it is two years or 

15 half a year or whatever. Why wasn't the 

16 walk-in panel made so that the amount of 

17 change we would have to do would be less, 

18 more in line with the refrigeration? 

19 MS. COUGHLIN: There is a procedure 

20 for defining the TSLs that looks at the 

21 actual consumer benefit. So, this TSL 

22 corresponds, I believe, to maximum NPV for 
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1 both categories of equipment. However, it is 

2 in magnitude smaller for the panels. 

3 Again, the energy savings that are 

4 now included and associated with the panels 

5 are relatively small because they only 

6 include the transmission losses. 

7 MR. CRAIG: You also take into 

8 consideration the impact it has on the 

9 manufacturers and small businesses in that 

10 formula. Correct? 

11 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 

12 MR. CRAIG: Okay, so the impact is 

13 pretty big on us, obviously, for a lot less 

14 return on investment. It seems like instead 

15 of having us have a big capital investment, 

16 we are going to have put out to get not as 

17 much return. Why can't we stay where we are 

18 at? 

19 MS. COUGHLIN: Well, that is 

20 essentially the process that we are in. So 

21 again, DOE has a certain set of procedures it 

22 follows to propose the standard level. And 
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1 these are associated with those procedures. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jim. 

3 MR. KINSER: Jim Kinser. Just a 

4 question. Shouldn't the panel get credit for 

5 the energy savings of the refrigeration 

6 system? Because you can put a smaller 

7 refrigeration system on that cooler because 

8 you have a more efficient insulated panel. 

9 So, why wouldn't we get more credit for the 

10 panel instead of less? Because you can't put 

11 that small a unit on a poorly insulated walk12 in. Right? 

13 MS. COUGHLIN: Potentially, yes. I 

14 don't think that is the way this accounting 

15 had been done but you could separate it out 

16 that way, yes. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

18 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, Charlie 

19 Stephens. Just a quick analysis. I think 

20 that kind of methodology was a casualty of 

21 going to a component-based analysis is 

22 essentially what happened. 
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1 MR. KINSER: Not really because you 

2 can't -- 

3 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, we don't have 

4 the -- again, these things need to be lined 

5 up with what can be measured in the test 

6 procedure. So, it is not clear that you 

7 could make that fully consistent with the 

8 test procedure. 

9 MR. KINSER: Okay. 

10 MR. STEPHENS: I didn't mean to say 

11 I disagree because I kind of would like to 

12 see that happen. But I think it is a 

13 casualty of the way the analysis ended up 

14 having to go. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

16 MS. COUGHLIN: And I would like to 

17 point out that although there may be a net 

18 cost for some of these consumers, it is not 

19 necessarily a large cost. You can see that 

20 the LCC savings in general are relatively 

21 small. So, there again, there is more detail 

22 on these distributions in the technical 
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1 support document. 

2 MR. McHUGH: So, I just want to 

3 clarify what I thought I heard Ellis ask was 

4 do these LCCs actually incorporate the impact 

5 on manufacturers. And I thought that this is 

6 all focused on the end consumer's life-cycle 

7 cost and payback, not on the manufacturer's 

8 impact. 

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. 

10 MR. McHUGH: Did I miss that? 

11 MS. COUGHLIN: So, when the 

12 engineering analysis comes up with a 

13 manufacturer price, they include whatever 

14 additional capital investment the 

15 manufacturers may need to make. 

16 And then there is a separate 

17 analysis, the manufacturer impact analysis, 

18 which goes into much more detail about how 

19 the standard affects manufacturers. But the 

20 purchase price predicted by the engineering 

21 analysis should include whatever investments 

22 are necessary to meet the standard. 
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1 MR. McHUGH: So to the extent that 

2 impacts on manufacturers impacts the price of 

3 their product, but this is a consumer -- am I 

4 missing this? Is this a consumer-based life5 cycle cost? 

6 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, this is a 

7 consumer -- right. But the price the 

8 consumer is paying includes the manufacturer 

9 recovering the investment they made to meet 

10 the standard. 

11 MR. McHUGH: Okay. And then even 

12 though when we look at efficiency measures 

13 separately in terms of this component 

14 approach, depending on what efficiency level 

15 you are at, is a relatively small fraction of 

16 the total cost of the refrigeration 

17 equipment. I actually don't see anything 

18 that would prohibit or prevent someone from 

19 looking at equipment downsizing as a function 

20 of the reduction in transmission losses in 

21 structural panels or anything else. 

22 Am I missing something there? There 
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1 is an energy savings and there is also 

2 potentially a first cost savings associated 

3 with equipment for the same sized box or even 

4 for square foot of panel, if you want to look 

5 at it that way. 

6 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. So, DOE is no 

7 longer attempting to describe the box 

8 associated with a given refrigeration system. 

9 So, all those things are true but they are 

10 not accounted for here. DOE does account for 

11 the refrigeration system alone. If 

12 efficiency improves, you may be able to 

13 downsize the capacity. And that is included 

14 in the analysis of the refrigeration system. 

15 MR. McHUGH: Thanks. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert. 

17 MR. WILKINS: That was a hypothesis 

18 about which I was about to ask is that my 

19 assumption is we have really gotten these 

20 boxes tight and the doors tight. And we have 

21 really gotten a very efficient envelope. 

22 And, therefore, we have downsized the 
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1 refrigeration equipment and it makes that 

2 economics look good on the refrigeration 

3 because we have invested in getting a tight 

4 box. That is what it appears to be. 

5 And I think I heard you just say 

6 that. 

7 MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. If you 

8 look -- you are talking average savings. Is 

9 that over the lifetime? 

10 MS. COUGHLIN: That is correct. 

11 MR. CRAIG: So we are talking $72, 

12 $8 on structural panels? 

13 MS. COUGHLIN: That's correct. 

14 MR. CRAIG: So over the lifetime of 

15 that walk-in, this is what it is going to 

16 save that customer is $8 on a medium-sized 

17 walk-in and I have got to go out and spend 

18 all this money to get there? 

19 Is that what you are saying? Am I 

20 reading that right? To save that guy $8 over 

21 the life of his walk-in, I have got to go out 

22 and spend a quarter of a million dollars or 
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1 have a million dollars on testing? This 

2 doesn't even make sense. The numbers just 

3 don't make sense, guys. I mean the maximum 

4 you are going to save anybody is on a display 

5 door, which we don't even manufacture but 

6 that would be $228 over ten years? We had 12 

7 years life expectancy. This doesn't make 

8 sense. 

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Right, so this is -- 

10 these are expressed in a single panel, single 

11 door basis. But when we do the -- 

12 MR. CRAIG: A single panel? 

13 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, so that is what 

14 the table refers to a single panel. 

15 MR. CRAIG: You are saving $8 per 

16 panel or per square foot or per what? 

17 MR. WILKINS: Again, I think you are 

18 missing the point here. 

19 MS. COUGHLIN: It's per panel. 

20 MR. WILKINS: Look at the savings in 

21 the refrigeration system. It is not because 

22 the refrigeration system is so much better, 
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1 it is because the box is so much better that 

2 it enables you to downsize the refrigeration 

3 system. Isn't that true? 

4 MR. CRAIG: But if the box were that 

5 much better, you would save a lot more than 

6 $8 over a life period of time. 

7 MR. WILKINS: Well, then clarify it 

8 for us, what this is, if that is not what it 

9 is. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So that 

11 exchange, just for the record, Ellis and 

12 Robert back and forth. Now, to Charlie. 

13 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie. Here is 

14 what I think I understand. The unit of 

15 measure in the lower table is a panel, not a 

16 walk-in. 

17 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 

18 MR. STEPHENS: So, there is no 

19 assumed square footage of a walk-in here. 

20 MS. COUGHLIN: No. 

21 MR. STEPHENS: So we would have to 

22 multiply that number times however many 
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1 panels there are in a typical walk-in before 

2 you could get a number that would apply to 

3 what you think you are selling as a product. 

4 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right. 

5 MR. LUKE CRAIG: Well, average say a 

6 six by six or eight by eight, say 20 panels -

7 - 

8 MR. ELLIS CRAIG: No, it is not 

9 that. It's about ten panels. 

10 MR. LUKE CRAIG: All right, so you 

11 have saved $80 over 12 years. 

12 MR. STEPHENS: How many panels did 

13 you say? 

14 MR. CRAIG: There is about ten 

15 panels. 

16 MR. STEPHENS: Okay, I don't know if 

17 that is the same sized panel that is being 

18 analyzed here. 

19 MR. CRAIG: Well, one was M and one 

20 is a large. The medium is like a two-foot. 

21 I think it is two by eight. 

22 MS. COUGHLIN: Those are 
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1 temperatures. 

2 MR. STEPHENS: Those are 

3 temperature, medium and low temperature. And 

4 I think the panel might be a four by eight or 

5 something like that. 

6 MR. CRAIG: The average size panel 

7 is four by eight. But even then, like a six 

8 by six or an eight by eight, it is like 10 to 

9 12 panels. 

10 MR. STEPHENS: So like 16. A couple 

11 of hundred is kind of the number I am getting 

12 but that is neither here nor there. 

13 MR. CRAIG: If it was $200, that is 

14 -- 

15 MR. STEPHENS: But again, the 

16 savings you are getting from the lower table 

17 do not include any downsizing, for instance, 

18 of the refrigeration system for the increased 

19 efficiency. 

20 So, this is kind of like a minimum 

21 savings. 

22 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 
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1 MR. STEPHENS: That is how I kind of 

2 read this. That if you are really good with 

3 the refrigeration, you actually might save a 

4 lot more. In fact, you might save enough on 

5 the refrigeration system to pay for the 

6 upgrade in the panel based on the panels that 

7 I am seeing here. 

8 MR. CRAIG: So what I am 

9 understanding is I go to my customer and I 

10 say I am going to save you $200 over 12 

11 years, if you spend another $500 or $600 for 

12 this walk-in. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's go to 

14 David. You are next. 

15 MR. GRIFE: I'm sorry, I have to 

16 support Ellis on this. We are manufacturers. 

17 We are the ones who live it every day and he 

18 is right on target. They don't even 

19 understand that. I don't understand it. I 

20 don't know how to go to the board and say 

21 let's invest a half a million or a million 

22 dollars on this. You know, this is not a 
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1 good return on investment. Anybody here who 

2 is a businessman, this is not a good return 

3 on investment for panels. And we shouldn't 

4 be backing into this. We should look at this 

5 and say we need to do something different 

6 here in the Department of Energy to make sure 

7 that this is a good business model that we 

8 should do. 

9 MS. COUGHLIN: This is from the 

10 purchaser perspective. So this has got 

11 nothing to do with the manufacturer 

12 investment. 

13 MR. GRIFE: Where do you think the 

14 purchaser starts from? The manufacturer. 

15 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, but again, this 

16 simply represents the return to the consumer, 

17 assuming -- when a standard is passed, you 

18 don't have to tell anybody anything. Right? 

19 MR. GRIFE: I'm sorry but it sounds 

20 like you are trying to rationalize the 

21 questions we are saying to a political 

22 answer. I mean, I'm just a businessman 
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1 trying to take care of customers day in and 

2 day out, as I know many of these gentlemen 

3 are. 

4 We are trying to justify it to them 

5 because they are going to come back to us and 

6 say, ‘‘What are you doing?’’ And we don't want 

7 to have every answer be, ‘‘Well, this is the 

8 government.’’ We are trying to understand 

9 this. We are trying to see how it makes good 

10 sense. And if anything, you are hearing some 

11 feedback from us that we are very concerned 

12 about these large expenses that we don't see 

13 the benefit. We want to get behind it. We 

14 believe in it but we just don't see the 

15 benefits. 

16 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So, I think 

17 in terms of the Department's procedure, 

18 again, there are certain analyses that are 

19 done routinely for the Department to evaluate 

20 the effectiveness of the standard. 

21 So, this particular analysis is 

22 looking at the consumer and isolating the 
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1 equipment and saying for each piece of 

2 equipment that you are buying, this is the 

3 potential payback. Now, there is another 

4 part of the analysis that looks at the 

5 national level, sort of all consumers, all 

6 panels, that sort of thing, which is more 

7 indicative to the Department of the overall 

8 benefit of the standard. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon and 

10 then to Charlie. 

11 MR. LEWIS: Yes, back in what about 

12 2007 when California said we are going to 

13 have five-inch freezer panels and then 

14 rescinded it fairly quickly as the 2009 

15 standards came out. But we had customers in 

16 California and I could not show them an 

17 energy savings that would justify going to 

18 five-inch panels, based on the heat of 

19 transmission. That is maybe 30 percent of 

20 the heat load of the walk-in. It is not 100 

21 percent. So rather than just going to the 

22 five-inch, you have only got a very small 
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1 area where you would go down from a one and a 

2 half load to a one or a two and a half to a 

3 two. It almost doesn't happen. 

4 And the payback in there in the last 

5 seven or six years, I have not been able to 

6 show one customer that they should be five7 inch panels. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

9 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 

10 Can you tell me what kind of an analysis you 

11 do to show them that? 

12 MR. LEWIS: Yes, I look at the heat 

13 load on the walk-in improvement with five14 inch panels and what that does to the 

15 refrigeration runtime and their initial cost 

16 and there is no payback. 

17 MR. STEPHENS: But what kind of an 

18 analysis -- oh, payback? So, you are using 

19 this payback period? 

20 MR. LEWIS: Looking at a payback 

21 period for the increased cost of the 

22 equipment, less the energy you are going to 
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1 save and what that period is, it is eight or 

2 nine years. 

3 MR. STEPHENS: I think you are 

4 probably doing the wrong kind of analysis to 

5 sell that. I mean if you would like to sell 

6 it, you could actually sell them. 

7 I just did an analysis just last 

8 week on a bunch of energy measures that are 

9 only half as good as this, in other words, 

10 the paybacks are about twice as long, eight 

11 to ten years. You really need to do a 

12 monthly cash flow analysis. And I think if 

13 you did a monthly cash flow analysis on all 

14 of this, your customers would be cash flow 

15 positive in month one. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So I think, 

17 though, in the foregoing discussion, we have 

18 laid out this table, both of these tables. I 

19 will take final questions and comments here 

20 before we move on. 

21 Ellis. 

22 MR. CRAIG: Again, I want to state 
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1 that if we are doing this solely for the 

2 purpose of saving CO2, I understand the DOE 

3 coming up with this. But as far as us going 

4 to marketplace and justifying this great idea 

5 we have, it just won't fly because the 

6 numbers aren't here to do it. 

7 The other thing is, this doesn't 

8 take into consideration the impact it has on 

9 us. I know they do on another area but not 

10 here. And I am looking up here and say okay, 

11 I am going to make you spend more money on 

12 your walk-in and you are going to not get 

13 much payback on it. Actually, I don't even 

14 know if they will because the walk-in is 

15 going to cost a lot more than some of these 

16 paybacks are going to be. 

17 I don't understand how we can do 

18 that and hurt all these small businesses like 

19 we are going to be doing. There is no 

20 justification in this. I don't get it. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank. 

22 MR. MINELLI: Yes, I just want to 
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1 agree with Ellis and what a couple of the 

2 others said. And what I said earlier about 

3 the big box clubs and supermarkets, the doors 

4 wouldn't last anywhere near the payback 

5 period. 

6 So, asking them to invest the 

7 additional money and us to invest additional 

8 money for a negative payback is ridiculous. 

9 I just don't think it is a necessary move. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Harmon? 

11 MR. LEWIS: Since we are talking 

12 about this as a panel basis, what square 

13 footage panel were all these costs based on? 

14 MS. COUGHLIN: For this table, I'm 

15 not sure what the average size is. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We can dig 

17 that out. 

18 We have been at this for an hour and 

19 a half. I am going to suggest we take a 

20 break for just ten minutes. Ten minutes. 

21 You know where the restrooms are. 

22 If you are going to get a Coke, dash down to 
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1 the ground floor, turn the corner and you can 

2 get a Coke there. 

3 That means we are going to resume at 

4 2:45, about, 2:46. 

5 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

6 matter went off the record at 2:35 p.m. and 

7 resumed at 2:46 p.m.) 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, let's 

9 resume. I guess right here at the outset, 

10 Joanna, you have a question. 

11 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I just 

12 wanted to ask a question related to how the 

13 TSLs were developed. So, I am looking at 

14 Table 10D.2.6, which shows the design options 

15 associated with each TSL for display doors. 

16 And so as we noted this morning, it 

17 looks like lighting sensors, film layers, 

18 soft low-e coating, krypton fill all appear 

19 at the max tech TSL, TSL 6, and don't appear 

20 at any of the lower TSLs. Could you explain 

21 why that is? 

22 MS. COUGHLIN: I'm going to pass 
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1 that to the engineering. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Did you get 

3 the question? 

4 MS. LEGETT: So in general, I think 

5 Katie touched on this a little bit, the TSLs 

6 are combinations of analysis that satisfy 

7 certain criteria. And the reason is they 

8 were chosen is because they satisfied those 

9 max tech criteria but none of the others. 

10 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. So, does 

11 that suggest that things like lighting 

12 sensors weren't found to be a cost-effective 

13 measure? 

14 MS. LEGETT: By and large, yes, for 

15 that equipment class. 

16 MS. MAUER: Okay. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, we are 

18 moving on now to shipments and back to Katie. 

19 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, so I will just 

20 answer one question that was raised. The 

21 panel here is about eight by four. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. We 
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1 have got several sidebar conversations going 

2 on. If we could hold off on those. Jon, you 

3 want to say something before we get going? 

4 MR. McHUGH: Yes, I just want to -- 

5 hopefully this is a clarifying question or at 

6 least how I understand the table that you are 

7 showing there as it relates to panels. 

8 So, just looking at your top row 

9 there, you have got a 32-square foot panel. 

10 The estimation is that this is saving $8 per 

11 panel over -- and this is a discounted value, 

12 right? 

13 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right. 

14 MR. McHUGH: So, this is something 

15 like a five percent discount rate or 

16 something like that over this is 12 years. 

17 Is that right? 

18 MS. COUGHLIN: Fourteen, I think. 

19 MR. McHUGH: Or 14 years, okay. 

20 So, in terms of the total dollar, 

21 this is essentially ten times or so the 

22 annual savings. And that since it has a 
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1 simple payback of five years, this implies 

2 that for that panel to get to TSL 4, we are 

3 looking at a $40 cost increment or a little 

4 bit over a dollar per square foot for the 

5 panels. 

6 Am I kind of understanding the 

7 overall concept of what this row would mean? 

8 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 

9 MR. McHUGH: I'm just trying to put 

10 it in the common for people who manufacture 

11 these things, so that they can have a gut 

12 check in terms of does this actually make 

13 sense. Does it cost about a dollar per 

14 square foot to make that change? And that my 

15 expectation is when I go to my customers that 

16 I am really talking about something that has 

17 a five-year simple payback. 

18 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right. 

19 MR. McHUGH: Okay, so all those 

20 things are correct. 

21 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. 

22 MR. McHUGH: Now, does that jibe 
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1 with you guys that what the TSL is is about 

2 $1.25 per square foot cost increment? 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis. 

4 MR. CRAIG: I mean you are talking 

5 about $1.25. I don't agree that that is what 

6 we will have to increase our price to sell 

7 this walk-in, if we got to something that is 

8 a five-inch walk-in. I think it will be a 

9 lot more than that because there is a lot of 

10 changes that go on that I don't know if DOE 

11 is taking into consideration but as a 

12 manufacturer, I know there is a lot of costs. 

13 There is more fixtures. You have got to 

14 expand the size of your plant. You have 

15 slowed down production. You have done a lot 

16 of things, not even counting capital 

17 investment. Not even counting shipping 

18 costs, which are going to be a big issue in 

19 this whole thing. So, it is going to be a 

20 lot more than $1.25 to implement this to that 

21 customer. 

22 So, I guarantee you that the cost of 
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1 that customer will be more than he is saving 

2 up there on small walk-ins. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon. 

4 MR. LEWIS: Yes, I am going to tell 

5 you this and I am probably going to kill half 

6 the room but I different supports to five7 inches approach and 25 percent and that is 

8 without having to rationalize capital 

9 expenditure for another million dollars' 

10 worth of fixtures when I lose a third of my 

11 capacity. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

13 you. 

14 MR. LEWIS: Now, the net cost 

15 percentage that is 34, what number by divided 

16 what number is 34? 

17 MS. COUGHLIN: That is the 

18 percentage of consumers. So, the Monte Carlo 

19 simulation does a 10,000 sample of consumers 

20 and 34 percent of them will see a net cost 

21 associated with the standard, which means the 

22 increase in total installed costs is slightly 
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1 higher than the decrease in operating costs. 

2 MR. LEWIS: So the net cost 

3 percentage and the net benefit percentage add 

4 100. 

5 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right. So, 

6 this doesn't tell you the magnitude of the 

7 net cost or the net benefit. It just tells 

8 you the number of people that had a net cost 

9 or net benefit. 

10 And again, there is more detailed 

11 information in the TSD about -- 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I think we 

13 have discussed this enough so that all of you 

14 can make detailed comment on this. And that 

15 is what the Department would like to see. 

16 They would like you to really give them your 

17 best thinking on how this impacts you, your 

18 company, your group and how that would all 

19 shake out for all the parties in this. 

20 So, let's move on now. 

21 MR. LEWIS: May I ask one last 

22 question? 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: One last 

2 question. 

3 MR. LEWIS: One last question. Ms. 

4 Rebecca? 

5 MS. LEGETT: Yes? 

6 MR. LEWIS: On these, we have got 

7 four-inch or three and a half-inch thick 

8 cooler panels. We are going to have five9 inch freezer panels. We build a lot of walk10 ins that are coolers and freezers or mini11 coolers and freezers all in one big room. 

12 Did you take into account how do you match 

13 five-inch rooms with four-inch rooms and 

14 four-inch walls with five-inch walls? 

15 Because we charge a mint to do that. We have 

16 to. That starts to become rocket science. 

17 MS. LEGETT: So, short answer, no, 

18 because this is at the component level. It 

19 is only looking at one individual panel. Is 

20 there any way you can characterize that cost 

21 for us so we can account for it? 

22 MR. LEWIS: You have to bring it 
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1 back to square feet. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, that's 

3 helpful. 

4 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, that would go 

5 into the installation cost segment, I think, 

6 of the LCC. So, if you can provide 

7 information on that, we can incorporate it. 

8 MR. LEWIS: It is manufacturing 

9 cost. It is not installation. 

10 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So now, we 

12 are moving on to shipments. 

13 MS. COUGHLIN: So the shipments 

14 analysis now moves away from the individual 

15 consumer and to the national level impacts 

16 associated with all the equipment that is 

17 shipped over the analysis period. So, the 

18 chevrons here show that the shipments 

19 analysis and life-cycle cost results are used 

20 to construct the national impact analysis. 

21 So, let me first go through the shipments. 

22 So the shipments model, shipments 
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1 refers to units that are produced in each 

2 year and sold. So, it incorporates both 

3 replacements for existing installations and 

4 new installations. 

5 In this analysis, because again of 

6 the separation of components from 

7 refrigeration systems, there is separate 

8 shipments models for each type of equipment. 

9 However, we do build on the model that was 

10 for completed walk-ins that was constructed 

11 in the preliminary analysis. 

12 So, DOE projects future shipments 

13 based on two things. You can begin your 

14 analysis in any given analysis year if you 

15 know the standing stock of the equipment, how 

16 many units, where they are, and how old they 

17 are. And you have a lifetime for the units 

18 so you know how quickly they will be 

19 replaced. And the other piece of information 

20 that you need is new floor space to account 

21 for new installations. 

22 So the data sources that DOE uses 
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1 are the Commercial Buildings Energy 

2 Consumption Survey, which gives a breakdown 

3 for different business types of a sort of 

4 saturation rate for walk-ins, how many units 

5 are in each type of business and by region 

6 and by age, that sort of thing. 

7 The Economic Census provides 

8 additional data on shipments of various types 

9 of equipment. And then manufacturer 

10 interviews were also used to develop 

11 information about how many units are shipped, 

12 how the breakdown according to equipment 

13 class and capacity. 

14 So, the model has the sort of, 

15 again, it is a hierarchical model. It first 

16 predicts how many walk-in units are going to 

17 be installed, just based on the commercial 

18 building activity. And then it takes that 

19 installation of completed walk-ins and breaks 

20 down the refrigeration systems associated 

21 with it and the different envelope 

22 components. 
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1 So, there are a number of 

2 assumptions. And again, they are detailed in 

3 the notice and any comments on those inputs 

4 and assumptions would be appreciated. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon. 

6 MR. LEWIS: Yes. How many walk-in 

7 coolers and freezers did that say are shipped 

8 each year? 

9 MS. COUGHLIN: I think it is on the 

10 order of a few tens of thousands. Is that 

11 table in here? I'm not sure. 

12 Yes, I think there is a table in the 

13 TSD that actually has units. 

14 MR. LEWIS: Okay. 

15 MS. COUGHLIN: So, yes. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So we will 

17 look for that. 

18 MS. COUGHLIN: So, I am going to 

19 show you a number of tables which will give 

20 you something more specific to comment on. 

21 So, we will start with the equipment class. 

22 So essentially, in building the 
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1 shipments model, so we start -- again, we are 

2 looking at an analysis period that begins in 

3 2017 and continues out several decades. So, 

4 we use these annual energy outlook 

5 projections of commercial floor space to give 

6 us our basic picture of how that is going to 

7 evolve over time. 

8 So, those commercial floor space 

9 projections are organized according to 

10 activity, building activity. So, food sales, 

11 food service, that sort of thing. 

12 So, the first task is to take the 

13 product classes that are defined for the 

14 analysis, map them to sort of more common 

15 sense application types and then we map those 

16 into the different building types. 

17 So, the application types that DOE 

18 used essentially take the equipment classes, 

19 which are either coolers or freezers, and 

20 storage or display, and then break them into 

21 three sizes to account for the different 

22 sizes of the buildings that they are going 
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1 into. 

2 So, you end up with 12 application 

3 size categories and across the actual -- so 

4 for the refrigeration systems, these are the 

5 distributions that DOE arrived at for which 

6 types of refrigeration systems are used in 

7 which types of applications. 

8 So again, there is a lot of 

9 information here that I don't want to get 

10 into the detail at this point. But if there 

11 are comments on the overall picture here, for 

12 example, there are some numbers that are very 

13 large and a lot that are small. If those 

14 large numbers look incorrect, then DOE would 

15 appreciate comment on that. 

16 So, for the market shares by size 

17 for the envelope components, again, DOE used 

18 various estimates of the unit sizes for 

19 different business types and then the number 

20 of business types based on what is in CBECS 

21 and then made some essential informed guesses 

22 about what that means for size distribution 
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1 of panels and doors. 

2 So, the size distributions are 

3 broken down for three categories for each 

4 envelope component and these are DOE 

5 estimates of the percentage of sales that 

6 fall into those different sized categories. 

7 And then in the analysis, when we 

8 talk about a panel or a large panel, these 

9 are the representative sizes that are used to 

10 specify what is meant by large in the 

11 analysis. 

12 And again, these are expected to be 

13 population averages. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon. 

15 MR. LEWIS: Yes, I am not aware of 

16 anybody that makes a five and a half-foot 

17 wide panel in our industry. Am I mistaken? 

18 You are based on metal coil width and metal 

19 handling equipment. Because I mean they make 

20 door frames that are that big but standard 

21 panels -- 

22 MR. CRAIG: The walk-in that we make 
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1 is a five/ten by five/ten. 

2 MR. LEWIS: No, no, not the size but 

3 the size of the panel. 

4 MR. CRAIG: Oh, panel, okay. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis. 

6 MS. COUGHLIN: Right, again, this is 

7 sort of like the 2.1 average children per 

8 family. So this is a population average. 

9 MR. LEWIS: But if you don't have 

10 anybody in the population that is five and a 

11 half feet wide, you can't have 20 percent of 

12 them, if nobody builds that. 

13 MS. COUGHLIN: So you don't have -- 

14 do you have five and six or are you saying 

15 you have nothing in that range? 

16 MR. LEWIS: Nobody, that I am aware 

17 of, builds wider than four feet based on 

18 material handling and coil widths that are 

19 commercially available at a reasonable price. 

20 So that four-foot metal restricts your panel 

21 to under four feet. 

22 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. 
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1 MR. LEWIS: So that is, I think, 

2 totally wrong. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis. 

4 MR. CRAIG: I agree, Harmon. The 

5 other thing I wanted to say, looking at this 

6 five and a half feet, are you sure this isn't 

7 including warehouse type products? 

8 When you got these numbers, we are 

9 only limited to 3,000 or less. So, did 

10 anybody say okay, we only want to look at 

11 walk-ins that are 3,000 and less? 

12 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 

13 MR. CRAIG: Because the only ones I 

14 know that could possibly do that would be 

15 people who are making large panels for 

16 commercial walk-in application that are 

17 supply-oriented. So, that wouldn't even be 

18 in our market. That has nothing to do with 

19 our product. All of ours are four-foot. I 

20 don't know a manufacturer here that ever does 

21 it any different. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. 

2 MR. LEWIS: It would make it a lot 

3 longer, too. 

4 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

6 additional comments on this Table 58? 

7 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, so again the 

8 output of the shipments model is the total 

9 shipments of units which comprises the sum of 

10 new installations and replacements. So, 

11 these are just graphs showing over the 

12 analysis period. It actually starts in 2017. 

13 And this is broken down -- this is the 

14 refrigeration systems shipments broken down 

15 by broad product class. So, these wiggles in 

16 out years are essentially being driven by the 

17 shape of the AEO commercial floor space 

18 construction forecast. And we have similar 

19 plots for refrigeration components. These 

20 are actually, the graph is mislabeled. These 

21 are display doors and panels. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Which one is 
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1 mislabeled? 

2 MS. COUGHLIN: This WICF 

3 refrigeration component shipments by year. 

4 This is really envelope components by year. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 MS. COUGHLIN: So, the legend is 

7 correct. 

8 MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig. You have 

9 got number of units. What is a unit? 

10 MS. COUGHLIN: The number of units 

11 is the number of panels of the different 

12 representative sizes from the previous table. 

13 MR. CRAIG: Okay, all right. 

14 MS. COUGHLIN: So again, it is not -

15 - 

16 MR. CRAIG: Units. It is really 

17 panels. 

18 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. I believe this 

19 is really done -- yes, it is panels, virtual 

20 panels, I believe. 

21 Okay, but there is panels in here so 

22 -- this is only doors. I'm sorry, this is 
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1 just doors. 

2 MR. CRAIG: Now wait a minute. The 

3 blue line is medium. Isn't that panels? 

4 Display doors. 

5 MS. COUGHLIN: It is display doors. 

6 MR. CRAIG: Okay, PO is what? 

7 MS. COUGHLIN: Passage door. 

8 MR. CRAIG: So none of those are 

9 walk-in panels? 

10 MS. COUGHLIN: Passage doors, yes, 

11 these are all doors, display doors, passage 

12 doors, and freight doors. 

13 MR. CRAIG: Okay. 

14 MS. COUGHLIN: Oh, we don't have a 

15 picture of the panels. 

16 MR. CRAIG: I was going to say, we 

17 don't see that. 

18 MS. COUGHLIN: They will tell you 

19 what page. It will be in the TSD. Sorry it 

20 didn't get into the presentation. 

21 But it is going to look the same. I 

22 mean, they all look the same because they are 
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1 all being driven by the unit, the assembled 

2 unit forecast. The only thing that is going 

3 to change is what is on this axis, the 

4 vertical axis. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Cue the 

6 comment box. 

7 MS. COUGHLIN: Pardon me? 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: The comment 

9 box. 

10 MR. SENTER: Guy Senter here. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, please. 

12 MR. SENTER: It just hit me, I have 

13 never opened the door on the reach-in 

14 freezer. The walk-in freezer, yes, but the 

15 reach-in freezer with the glass door. I have 

16 just never seen one. Is that out in 

17 California? 

18 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, that is out in 

19 California. 

20 MR. SENTER: Okay, I have just never 

21 -- 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: So, DOE would welcome 

2 input. People have discussed a little bit 

3 the fact that the cost increases associated 

4 with an amended standard could lead to 

5 impacts on shipments to customers. So, DOE 

6 would welcome any input that people would 

7 like to provide on what you think the 

8 magnitude of that impact would be and whether 

9 particular sectors might be affected more 

10 than others. 

11 And also, the analytical time period 

12 is 30 years. This, again, is a convention 

13 that is used in most DOE analyses. If for 

14 any reason that seems inappropriate, we can 

15 all please comment on that as well. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

17 MR. LEMMOND: Is there any estimate 

18 on the uncertainty and increasing uncertainty 

19 in these numbers, as the years go out? I 

20 mean the Monte Carlo analysis type of 

21 analysis. 

22 MS. COUGHLIN: Let's see. Well, 
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1 since again these numbers are largely driven 

2 by what comes out of AEO and AEO does attempt 

3 to do an evaluation of their projection 

4 accuracy. 

5 But for the -- let's see. To do a 

6 mathematically correct uncertainty analysis 

7 requires more data that DOE currently has. 

8 We do validate the model to the extent 

9 possible. So essentially, given the data on 

10 building floor space and saturations and 

11 lifetimes, you can predict what shipments 

12 should be, including for historical periods. 

13 So, DOE looks at historical shipments for 

14 consistency with the model. 

15 I wouldn't want to go as far as 

16 quoting an uncertainty number based on that, 

17 though. It would not be very useful. 

18 MR. LEMMOND: Just, you know, the 

19 numbers seem very certain, too certain for 

20 2045. And I don't know, when that projection 

21 goes out too far in the future, it sort of, 

22 to me personally, it doesn't really mean 
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1 anything because in 2045 it is, as you know, 

2 a lot could happen. 

3 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. But there is 

4 nothing significant for the rule happening 

5 there either. The energy savings and cost 

6 savings that are trickling in have been so 

7 heavily discounted that they are not really 

8 meaningful. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert, you 

10 are next. 

11 MR. WILKINS: Just a question first, 

12 to think about. What average and range of 

13 market price increases does this project? 

14 And what is your assumption on price 

15 elasticity and demand? 

16 MS. COUGHLIN: For the current 

17 version of the model, there is no price 

18 elasticity included. Are you asking about 

19 price trends over time and the manufacturer's 

20 selling price or -- 

21 MR. WILKINS: How much for a typical 

22 walk-in will the average price rise, once 
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1 this standard is implemented, this amended 

2 standard is implemented? 

3 MS. COUGHLIN: Can you give us -- 

4 can someone over there look up the average 

5 price increase? Again, this is a component6 based analysis. We don't have a price for an 

7 assembled unit. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: While they 

9 are looking, David. 

10 MR. GRIFE: David from Arctic 

11 Industries. The manufacturers here have many 

12 customers. But one unique thing about walk13 ins is no matter how many of your customers 

14 buy, they rarely buy 30, 40 at a time. This 

15 is a unique product. Our biggest customers 

16 still buy one at a time because each one of 

17 these products goes to a unique, specific 

18 location. Many years ago it used to be much 

19 more to the warehouse and you could buy four 

20 or five and then they would distribute out to 

21 the field. I don't know if anybody does much 

22 of that anymore. Therefore, shipping has 
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1 gone up significantly as part of our price. 

2 And since the energy of moving trucks across 

3 the country has gone way down -- I'm joking 

4 of course -- it has made that shipping even 

5 more. So now where we have a product that 

6 may fit on three or four pallets with changes 

7 or five- or six-inch, whatever, it may go to 

8 six pallets. 

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. 

10 MR. GRIFE: And that is going to be 

11 significant. Shipping is ranged anywhere 

12 from 8 to 12 percent above the cost of our 

13 product. So anything that increases that 

14 shipping makes it even harder on us, the end 

15 users, our dealers, distributors, and 

16 everybody else in this chain. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

18 you. 

19 Yes, Ellis? 

20 MR. CRAIG: Most of us are used to 

21 shipping a lot of our products LTL, which is 

22 less than load. So, you ship, it goes on a 
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1 truck and no problem. But the bigger you 

2 get, all of a sudden, they don't want you to 

3 take up the whole truck, an LTL truck with a 

4 walk-in, so they start penalizing you. So, 

5 therefore, going from a smaller sized walk-in 

6 -- efficiency is we go to a five-inch, now it 

7 takes up more space. And you have more space 

8 on the truck. There is a lot more penalties. 

9 So you either ship it by two trucks at two 

10 different times or you ship it and pay the 

11 penalties. So, that is going to drive up the 

12 cost. 

13 I wonder if that was taken into 

14 consideration. 

15 MR. CRAIG: It can go from like $700 

16 to $3,000. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wow. 

18 MR. CRAIG: Yes, that big a 

19 difference. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, David, 

21 go ahead. 

22 MR. GRIFE: Because trucks, we know 
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1 how wide they are. That is why you are 

2 talking about 48-inch pallets. The pallets 

3 we try to stay -- there are no 73-inch 

4 pallets that we can put in the truck. So, if 

5 they can't put two pallets side-by-side, we 

6 are going to get dinged. And he is right. 

7 It can go from $700 to $3,000. It is all 

8 over the board. And now all of a sudden your 

9 cost for freight went from ten to 27 percent 

10 of that product. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

12 MR. GRIFE: So we are very conscious 

13 of that and I am sure we all have very good 

14 shipping people who pull their hair out each 

15 day as they try to make those deals to move 

16 product. 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from 

18 DOE. The answer is we did account for that. 

19 Shipping did vary with the increase, the 

20 differences and inflation as you moved up. 

21 So, you should look in the TSD in 

22 Chapter 5 and see if those shipping estimates 
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1 match up with what you are seeing and if not, 

2 give us some comments so that if we do a 

3 revision, we can consider that. 

4 MR. LEWIS: This is Harmon. Ashley, 

5 did you all do that as a linear just based on 

6 the weight difference or did you look at the 

7 fact it is totally disjointed once you get to 

8 a certain volume of the truck? 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is volume and 

10 weight-based. So, but take a look and see if 

11 those cut-offs match up with what you guys 

12 are actually seeing in the field. 

13 MR. CRAIG: Yes, this is Ellis 

14 Craig. You are going to be way off if you do 

15 it by just volume and weight because that is 

16 the LTL problem. They call it a square foot 

17 rule and the trucking companies all have 

18 their own. But they have a square foot rule. 

19 If you take up more than so many cubic feet 

20 in that truck, you pay for the whole truck. 

21 And that is where it really gets you. 

22 So, it is not a matter of just one 
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1 more foot on that truck, you might have to 

2 pay the $3,000 versus the $700. So that is 

3 very, very important that you look at that 

4 correctly, not just a percentage of increase 

5 because of the size. It is going to make a 

6 huge difference in these numbers. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Did 

8 you find the number you were looking for? 

9 Still looking. 

10 MS. COUGHLIN: The percentage 

11 increase in price, let's just look at TSL 4. 

12 MR. CRAIG: Okay, refrigeration -- 

13 we are talking about panels. 

14 MS. COUGHLIN: For panels. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Get a 

16 microphone. 

17 MR. LAU: For panels, go from 

18 baseline to TSL 4. We are looking at roughly 

19 a 12 percent increase in cost. I don't have 

20 refrigeration yet. 

21 MR. CRAIG: A 12 percent increase? 

22 MS. COUGHLIN: Uh-huh. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: He said 

2 panels, right? 

3 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Great. So 

5 now, let's proceed with national impact 

6 analysis. 

7 MS. COUGHLIN: So the purpose of the 

8 national impact analysis is to look now at 

9 the level of the entire country. So the 

10 entire population of walk-in units and 

11 estimate the national energy savings and the 

12 NPV of the consumer economic impacts. 

13 So, essentially the shipments model 

14 gives you a picture of what the stock of 

15 units over time would be under different 

16 trial standard levels. So, to estimate the 

17 changes in energy consumption and the changes 

18 in costs, you just look at the differences 

19 between the characteristics of the stock, say 

20 at TSL 4 versus the stock at the baseline. 

21 So, for the national energy 

22 consumption analysis, we just take the stock 
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1 and calculate, again, within the limits 

2 imposed by the component-based approach, the 

3 energy use associated with the refrigeration 

4 systems and the panels. And then the 

5 expenditures are the expenditures that are 

6 considered within the LCC; so, the increase 

7 in purchase price and installation cost and 

8 any decreases in energy costs and any changes 

9 in maintenance and repair cost. 

10 There is a difference from the LCC, 

11 in that the national analysis uses two 

12 discount rates for all consumers, three 

13 percent and seven percent. And these are 

14 mandated by the rules that govern this 

15 process. 

16 And again, the base case that we are 

17 considering here is a distribution of 

18 efficiencies in the market that includes some 

19 fraction of consumers who are buying 

20 equipment that is above the engineering 

21 baseline. 

22 So, there is a price trend. So, 
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1 essentially the equipment price increase is 

2 projected into the future. And given 

3 historical evidence of sort of overall slow 

4 declines in prices of manufactured goods, DOE 

5 may find that it makes sense to put a price 

6 trend on the equipment prices in the national 

7 impacts analysis. 

8 So, to determine whether there is an 

9 overall long-term price trend, we use the 

10 producer price index series for 

11 refrigeration, air conditioning, and heating 

12 equipment, which is a pretty broad category. 

13 And this is essentially smoothed, just is 

14 really just to present a picture of the 

15 scale. 

16 So, the constant price trend is the 

17 blue line. So, it is scaled to one. And 

18 then there is a slight decrease over very 

19 long periods of time evident in the data, 

20 which amounts to something like a half a 

21 percent a year decrease in the cost of 

22 equipment. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis. 

2 MR. CRAIG: Historically, we have 

3 been in business since '86 and we have never 

4 seen any product in our industry go down. 

5 Have we guys? 

6 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, well that would 

7 be -- because again, the data series here 

8 combines a number of different types of 

9 equipment. 

10 MR. CRAIG: Is this suggested 

11 according to inflation? 

12 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, this is real 

13 dollar price to clients. 

14 MR. CRAIG: So there isn't any 

15 inflation you are showing it going down. 

16 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right. But 

17 again, this is a PPI series, so they have 

18 done these adjustments but it is much broader 

19 than the category of equipment that is 

20 covered by this rulemaking. 

21 So, it is very possible that for 

22 this rulemaking, this number is not 
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1 appropriate. 

2 MR. CRAIG: Yes, I would say it is 

3 probably not appropriate in effect that we 

4 are a metal industry, whether it be 

5 refrigeration or us. Those haven't been 

6 going on a pretty well straight line basis. 

7 Those have more than increased because it is 

8 a supply and demand. There is less supply. 

9 There is more demand. Therefore, the prices 

10 are going up faster than inflation. So, I 

11 would disagree with that chart. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And so in 

13 your written comments, if you can provide the 

14 details, Ellis. 

15 MR. CRAIG: Yes, we can kind of 

16 project out from when -- at least in our -- 

17 you guys could probably do the same thing. 

18 What you were paying, what you are paying now 

19 versus how much it went up over and above 

20 inflation. 

21 MR. LEWIS: Right. You've also got 

22 your thing, chemicals, or oil base. So all of 
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1 that you can figure three, four, five percent 

2 annual increase over the last 20 years, last 

3 30 years. 

4 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, so this is only 

5 applied to the incremental cost. It is not 

6 applied to the baseline cost. 

7 So, it has a small impact 

8 quantitatively on the results you are going 

9 to see. So it is a small trend applied to a 

10 small incremental cost. 

11 MR. LEWIS: But the percentage if I 

12 go from putting four inches of urethane in 

13 the panel to five inches, the urethane amount 

14 there is the same percentage cost increase 

15 that was. So if I got a four percent 

16 increase in the price per pound on urethane, 

17 the incremental is the same four percent 

18 increase. So, it is not going to go down. 

19 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And moving 

21 along. 

22 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, I have one 
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1 more. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Oh yes, Jon. 

3 MR. McHUGH: So what I think I am 

4 hearing is that your recommendation is that 

5 we should be tying this to projections of oil 

6 prices moving forward for panels. 

7 MR. LEWIS: I'm sorry. It is many 

8 factors because you have got metal and you 

9 have got insulation and you have also got 

10 component cam locks, which are again, back to 

11 metal but different types. It is not one 

12 number but it certainly doesn't go down year 

13 to year. We have, maybe in the last 20 years 

14 had one or two years that one component might 

15 go down, only because we have found some 

16 other competitive way to beat on them for 

17 that but not willingly because everybody's 

18 prices are going up. 

19 MR. McHUGH: But they are 

20 nonetheless related to some kind of commodity 

21 costs, metals and oil or something like that. 

22 MR. LEWIS: Yes, exactly. 
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: So any specific input 

2 on which commodity prices or chemical prices 

3 should be tied to this trend would be very 

4 helpful. 

5 So again, returning to the issue of 

6 base case efficiency distributions, this is 

7 the detail that I mentioned earlier. This is 

8 used in both the LCC and the NIA. 

9 So, the base case here is relative 

10 to what was prescribed in EISA. And for 

11 refrigeration systems, the analysis keeps 75 

12 percent at the baseline and the remainder is 

13 moved to a higher efficiency, I believe, in 

14 accordance with efficiency level one, on 

15 average. 

16 And for the components, 25 percent 

17 of the display doors are at the baseline; 75 

18 percent are distributed between EL1 and EL2. 

19 The freezer door is 80 percent are at the 

20 baseline and 100 percent of the other 

21 components are assumed to be at the baseline. 

22 So again, if there is information 
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1 that you can share with DOE to modify these 

2 distributions, these are not -- these are 

3 important in getting an accurate picture of 

4 the energy savings. 

5 So when we go from the baseline to a 

6 trial standard level, in this product 

7 analysis, DOE uses what they call a roll-up, 

8 which essentially if a purchaser was buying 

9 equipment that is not compliant, they are 

10 just moved up to the efficiency level at the 

11 current TSL. And so as you raise the TSL, 

12 you are sort of rolling up all the 

13 noncompliant purchasers to that minimum 

14 standard. 

15 So, these are the cumulative NES 

16 results and we are only presenting the 

17 combination tables in the notice. And in the 

18 TSD, you will see detailed tables broken down 

19 by refrigeration and envelopes separately. 

20 And there is also in the tables on 

21 refrigeration, they even break out the 

22 component of savings associated with being 
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1 able to downsize slightly the equipment. But 

2 these are the overall national energy savings 

3 in quads, quadrillion BTU. So, this is over 

4 the entire analysis period, which includes 

5 the units that were shipped over the 30 years 

6 from 2017 to 2047. And it is broken down 

7 here by medium and low temperature 

8 applications. 

9 So essentially, this typically -- 

10 you know, the trial standard levels are 

11 typically ordered such that the total energy 

12 savings goes up as you go up in the index. 

13 And DOE uses what is called a full fuel cycle 

14 metric to calculate energy savings. Since 

15 these are primarily electricity consuming 

16 equipment, the primary energy savings refers 

17 to the energy consumed at the electricity 

18 power plant. And then we add an upstream 

19 component, which represents the energy 

20 consumed in producing the fuels that are 

21 delivered to the power plant. 

22 So, this adds a very small increment 
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1 to the total energy savings. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Mike. 

3 MR. STRAUB: Just a quick 

4 clarification. Is that title correct? Is 

5 2017 to 2073? 

6 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, I think it is 

7 correct. Okay so again, this is an OMB rule 

8 about how the analysis should be done. So, 

9 you take the analysis period ends in 2047 but 

10 every unit that was shipped in 2047 you 

11 accumulate its energy savings in these 

12 totals. So, if the longest lived unit from 

13 2047 goes out of service in 2073, that gets 

14 up to this number. It is a very -- again, 

15 there is almost nothing -- I mean a fraction 

16 of a percent of the energy is coming from 

17 that long tail. But that is the sort of 

18 standardized procedure that DOE uses. 

19 So, this is a presentation of the 

20 NPV results. So again, these are the stream 

21 of either net costs or net benefits. Again, 

22 DOE uses a convention where LCC savings, so 
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1 savings to the consumer are represented as a 

2 positive number. 

3 And these are summed up over all the 

4 product classes. They have been separated 

5 here into medium and low temperature. And we 

6 have three percent discount rate and seven 

7 percent discount rate. 

8 MR. LEWIS: Is that for 

9 refrigeration or panels? 

10 MS. COUGHLIN: This is a combination 

11 of the two. So these are broken out by 

12 whether we are talking about freezers or 

13 coolers but it is the sum of the NPV values 

14 and the tables with the separate numbers are 

15 in the notice. 

16 So, here we could see very clearly 

17 max tech, which is TSL 6 is not cost18 effective. There is negative -- it costs the 

19 nation money to reach that level. 

20 TSL 5 is the maximum energy savings 

21 that is cost-effective. That is the 

22 definition that is used for TSL 5. And then 
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1 TSL 4 is the maximum NPV. And this is 

2 actually the way that the TSL is defined from 

3 the results is to go into each equipment type 

4 and choose the maximum NPV. 

5 So when we were discussing earlier 

6 why TSL 4 was selected, this is the reason 

7 why. So, this is the largest total 

8 population-wide benefit, even though for an 

9 individual purchaser of a single panel, it 

10 may not look terribly attractive. At the 

11 national level, savings are significant. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis. 

13 MR. CRAIG: Since this is compiled 

14 both refrigeration and walk-in panels, that 

15 is not -- is this chart right here is what 

16 they used to make that decision or did they 

17 look at each? 

18 MS. COUGHLIN: There is more detail 

19 that will be coming. 

20 MR. CRAIG: And do they look at each 

21 product line -- 

22 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 
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1 MR. CRAIG: -- or each component? 

2 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 

3 MR. CRAIG: Separately before they 

4 make -- 

5 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 

6 MR. CRAIG: Okay, thank you. 

7 MS. COUGHLIN: Any questions on 

8 this? Okay. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

10 MR. McHUGH: And for the development 

11 of this NPV out to 2046, is this making use 

12 of, for instance, a number of states now have 

13 renewable portfolio standards that, in 

14 general, raise the cost of electricity and 

15 also California and perhaps some other states 

16 will be having a cap and trade, carbon cap 

17 and trade or is this just purely a function 

18 of essentially natural gas costs moving 

19 forward? 

20 MS. COUGHLIN: So our electricity 

21 price projection comes from the annual energy 

22 outlook, which includes any legislative or 
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1 other industry change that has been enacted, 

2 but not those that are believed to be coming. 

3 So, AEO does predict much higher penetration 

4 rates now of renewable energy and that has an 

5 effect on the prices and it also has natural 

6 gas price projections, which are low these 

7 days. So, that also affects prices. 

8 So the AEO is something that, in 

9 itself, changes from one year to the next. 

10 It is published each year and the price 

11 projection for AEO 2016 may look very 

12 different from what we are using now. 

13 But having said that, the current 

14 electricity price projection is pretty flat 

15 in real terms. 

16 MR. McHUGH: Okay, thanks. 

17 MS. COUGHLIN: So moving on, there 

18 is what the economists refer to as the 

19 rebound effect, which suggests that when you 

20 make something cheaper, people will use more 

21 of it. And this is actually something that we 

22 try to account for in energy savings 
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1 estimates. It would be a change in the user 

2 behavior that might affect your estimate of 

3 future energy savings. 

4 So, it is not clear how this would 

5 work with refrigeration because it is a very 

6 utilitarian application. Something like 

7 lighting it may be that if the lights are 

8 cheaper or more efficient, people will leave 

9 them on longer and you would get a measurable 

10 rebound effect. 

11 So, for this particular product, DOE 

12 has assumed that there is no rebound effect -

13 - that consumer use of the product remains 

14 the same. However, there are a variety of 

15 ways where that may be incorrect. People may 

16 choose to oversize their systems more or 

17 leave the doors open or something like that. 

18 Again, DOE would welcome comment 

19 from anyone who has an idea of how consumer 

20 use of the product might change under the 

21 standard. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Any thoughts 
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1 on how usage patterns would change or 

2 anything like that? Jim. 

3 MR. KINSER: I thought this was 

4 interesting. We went to see a customer and 

5 they had LED lights. And inside the walk-in 

6 freezer was one of those little balloons that 

7 you see hanging up outside that kids will 

8 buy, spinning. And we asked them why. And 

9 the lady said that they were afraid that the 

10 light would go off while they were back in 

11 the freezer and they didn't want to get 

12 caught in the dark. So they hung this 

13 balloon thing inside the air stream of the 

14 evaporator so the lights stayed on all the 

15 time. I am glad we put the LED in and an 

16 automatic off switch so that the lights 

17 stayed on all the time. That's all. 

18 MS. COUGHLIN: That is a perfect 

19 example of a rebound. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, your 

21 name, please. 

22 MR. HAUER: I am Armin Hauer of ebm-
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1 papst. Maybe I have missed it but the 

2 rebound effect, would you also call that a 

3 rebound effect if somebody rather repairs an 

4 old cooler instead of investing in a new one? 

5 MS. COUGHLIN: No, that is not -- we 

6 don't call that a rebound effect. We do 

7 include that. We can include that in the 

8 modeling if it is -- again, if we have some 

9 kind of way of quantifying the degree to 

10 which that could occur. We call that 

11 extended lifetime repairs, essentially. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional 

13 comments on this comment box? 

14 Okay. 

15 MS. COUGHLIN: So, that is it for 

16 the consumer and national analyses. And then 

17 the next step is the discussion of 

18 manufacturer impact analysis. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

20 Chris Lau. 

21 MR. LAU: Hello. My name is Chris 

22 Lau. I am with Navigant and I will be 
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1 discussing the manufacturer impact analysis 

2 today. 

3 The main purpose of this analysis is 

4 to assess the impact of proposed standards on 

5 manufacturers of walk-in refrigeration 

6 systems, panels and doors. 

7 A second purpose is identifying 

8 qualified impacts on manufacturer subgroups, 

9 such as small businesses. And then the final 

10 portion of the MIA involves discussion of 

11 direct employment, competitive 

12 considerations, potential capacity 

13 constraints and other federal regulations 

14 that go into effect around the compliance 

15 date of this rulemaking. 

16 The primary tool used is the 

17 Government Regulatory Impact Model. It is a 

18 cash flow model used to represent the 

19 industry as a whole. The major output of the 

20 cash flow model is an industry net present 

21 value. The change in INPV succinctly 

22 quantifies the impacts of standards on 
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1 manufacturers. 

2 For the MIA, DOE conducted extensive 

3 interviews with the manufacturers of the 

4 covered product to validate and refine inputs 

5 of the Government Regulatory Impact Model and 

6 to understand qualitative issues. 

7 In general, we conduct this analysis 

8 in three phases. Phase 1 happens during the 

9 preliminary analysis. We create an industry 

10 profile, based on public documents such as 

11 SEC filings, U.S. census data, and research 

12 reports. Phases 2 and 3 occur during the 

13 NOPR phase, where we are today. 

14 Using public data, as well as input 

15 from the engineering analysis and shipments 

16 analysis, we begin to outline the industry in 

17 the GRIM. 

18 Key quantitative inputs and 

19 qualitative issues are validated through the 

20 interviews, and based on feedback, we refine 

21 our model and examine potential impacts in 

22 the industry. 
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1 On the qualitative side, one of the 

2 primary outputs is a list of industry key 

3 issues. The top three are highlighted here. 

4 I think we have actually touched on all of 

5 these at some point during the day. But for 

6 the sake of completeness, the key issues are: 

7 1) Test burden. Manufacturers expressed 

8 concern over the cost of testing and over 

9 test lab availability. 

10 2) Profitability impacts. As costs 

11 increase, manufacturers had concerns about 

12 reduced sales volume and reduced 

13 profitability. And 

14 3) There are concerns about excess 

15 conversion costs, particularly from panel 

16 manufacturers at six or seven inches -- at 

17 six- or seven-inch thick panels and from 

18 refrigeration and display door manufacturers, 

19 due to the high level of customization and 

20 large numbers of basic models. 

21 On the quantitative side for the 

22 MIA, we looked at refrigeration systems, 
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1 panels, and door manufacturing as separate 

2 industries. We also looked at small 

3 businesses for each of these subgroups. 

4 Taking into account the financial 

5 parameters from SEC filings, NPCs from the 

6 engineering analysis, shipments forecast from 

7 the shipments analysis, conversion cost 

8 estimates, and the range of potential 

9 markups, DOE was able to estimate a range of 

10 potential impacts in the industry, which was 

11 summed up by changing INPV. 

12 Looking at the combined industry and 

13 aggregate, DOE expects a loss of nine percent 

14 to no change in INPV. And this is just 

15 refrigeration panels and doors combined. 

16 Looking at the refrigeration 

17 industry, in particular, as a discrete 

18 industry, DOE estimates a potential loss of 

19 18.8 percent to 2.3 percent of INPV. 

20 Looking at the walk-in panel 

21 manufacturers as a discrete industry, DOE 

22 estimates a loss of 25 percent to a loss of 
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1 11.5 percent INPV. 

2 And looking at the door industry, 

3 DOE anticipates a loss of three percent to a 

4 potential gain of three percent of INPV. 

5 Based on public resources, as well 

6 as confidential interviews, DOE attempted to 

7 identify all small manufacturers in the 

8 industry. The output of that was they 

9 identified two small refrigeration systems 

10 manufacturers, at least 42 small panel 

11 manufacturers, and for wall-in doors, they 

12 identified five small manufacturers that 

13 primarily engaged in the business of 

14 producing doors, rather than panels. 

15 Based on DOE's understanding of the 

16 industry and our analysis, DOE could not 

17 certify that the proposed standard would not 

18 have significant impact on a substantial 

19 number of small businesses. 

20 The key drivers here were the large 

21 number of small business panel manufacturers 

22 and a potential disproportionate negative 
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1 impact on small versus large panel 

2 manufacturers, as well as the key role of 

3 certain small niche manufacturers for display 

4 doors and freight doors. 

5 DOE published initial regulatory 

6 flexibility analysis for the SBA. This is 

7 published in the NOPR, and it takes a look at 

8 some of the potential impacts on small versus 

9 large businesses. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon? 

11 MR. LEWIS: A quick question. Since 

12 you say we are going to be impacted, you said 

13 the number of manufacturers may shrink, what 

14 is the acceptable level of as a percentage of 

15 people you put out of business that is 

16 allowed through this government process? 

17 I mean, if there is 42 of us, do you 

18 want 30 left? Or I mean, is there a number? 

19 You know this is the first time we have come 

20 into this. You have done many other 

21 industries but is there a number? Are 

22 lawyers -- is it just whatever happens? 
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1 MR. LAU: As far as I know DOE does 

2 not target a certain number of businesses. 

3 MR. LEWIS: Right but I mean you 

4 know there is going to be an effect, the 

5 smaller they are, in having to buy that 

6 million dollar fixture -- 

7 MR. LAU: Yes, I don't necessarily 

8 think that is realistic. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael Kido. 

10 MR. KIDO: Well, we will take a look 

11 at whatever data come in. And obviously, it 

12 is not something that we can really answer. 

13 We are going to have to take a look 

14 at the information that we have, kind of 

15 evaluate it on a case by case basis and a lot 

16 of that is going to be dependent on whatever 

17 information we end up getting back as part of 

18 this process. 

19 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles Llenza, 

20 Department of Energy. What I would recommend 

21 is that you get back to us with comments as 

22 to how severely impacted all of you are going 
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1 to be, in what ways, in what particular 

2 issues with the rulemaking that you have 

3 problems that will impact you. And those are 

4 the things that we would consider in 

5 finalizing the final level in the final rule. 

6 MR. LEWIS: I guess given that say 

7 you all have looked in your engineering 

8 impact and we are going to have to buy a 

9 million dollar fixture, we can't plan that we 

10 are going to only charge a dime a square foot 

11 more for 40 years to get our money back. 

12 That is going to change the price of the 

13 panels much differently. And the larger the 

14 manufacturer, the less that affects his 

15 price. Therefore, he has a competitive 

16 advantage in 2017 that he doesn't have now or 

17 she -- they. 

18 So, how is that factored in or is 

19 it? 

20 MR. LAU: So, to help address that, 

21 in the regulatory flexibility analysis, we do 

22 look at the impact of conversion costs on an 
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1 average small manufacturer versus the average 

2 large manufacturer. And so we do try to 

3 quantify some of those disproportionate 

4 costs. 

5 However, in terms of analysis, DOE 

6 is looking at the aggregate positive and 

7 negative impacts in terms of selecting a 

8 standard level. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jim. 

10 MR. KINSER: I would ask that the 

11 DOE would consider changing the size of what 

12 they call a small business from 750 employees 

13 down to 50 employees. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

15 you. Ellis. 

16 MR. CRAIG: First of all, the 750 is 

17 probably the applicable number because the 

18 Small Business Administration that is what 

19 they are saying is what is going on. It just 

20 so happens we just got a lot of small 

21 businesses in our business. 

22 What I am really concerned about is 
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1 that I don't see -- we did -- they came out 

2 with you had to be certified, which means you 

3 had to register with the DOE here a year ago 

4 and file that you are compliant. And there 

5 were like nine manufacturers, six to nine 

6 manufacturers who didn't do that. And then 

7 we got calls from them saying they were 

8 charged $300,000 in fines for not doing that. 

9 And these were just small businesses. Now if 

10 this is the kind of thing that is going to go 

11 on and I know we talked to two of them that 

12 told us they were going to go out of business 

13 and they just told them they weren't going to 

14 go out of business. They were going out of 

15 business, shutting their doors, and that was 

16 it. And they wrote off the $300,000 and 

17 didn't charge it. 

18 But I know they are doing that now 

19 and we haven't even implemented this yet. 

20 This is just a matter of calling in and make 

21 a signature. 

22 So, it needs to be addressed because 
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1 it has an effect. You are familiar with 

2 this, probably. 

3 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. 

4 Yes, Ellis, I am very familiar with what you 

5 are talking about. I will say that the 

6 number is not $300,000 or anywhere 

7 approaching that in order of magnitude. 

8 So, if you review our public 

9 website, you will see that manufacturers who 

10 failed to comply, which your manufacturer 

11 obviously did, so were charged $8,000 for 

12 their failure to comply, which is standard 

13 across all industries. So, that is ancillary 

14 to this rulemaking at the moment. So, I 

15 don't think there is much more to go into 

16 that. But I do want to clarify that for the 

17 record. 

18 Now, with regards to the impact on 

19 small business, we do take that very 

20 seriously and we considered that when we were 

21 looking at that for all enforcement purposes 

22 and we will continue to consider that. 
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1 The Department takes this very 

2 seriously and we will continue to look at it. 

3 And what we ask is that in your comments, 

4 each one of you, and we understand this is a 

5 large industry with a lot of small 

6 businesses, explain that impact so we can 

7 quantify that and understand it best when we 

8 are balancing what to do next with the 

9 rulemaking. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Ellis, 

11 go ahead. 

12 MR. CRAIG: Concerning your -- was 

13 this a negotiated settlement of $8,000 or was 

14 it a lot larger to start with? 

15 MR. RAWALD: Enforcement actions are 

16 a public record and you can review 

17 enforcement actions. What I will tell you is 

18 that in each case we tell people what the 

19 maximum fine could be and then we offer a 

20 settlement figure. 

21 MR. CRAIG: Okay, that makes sense. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harmon. 
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1 MR. LEWIS: Right, I know we 

2 manufacturers are hung up on these million 

3 dollar fixtures. Based on what you have done 

4 with other industries, is there a possibility 

5 of rapid amortization -- depreciation, excuse 

6 me, of these fixtures, something that would 

7 help the smaller people get over that hurdle? 

8 Have you done that with other industries? 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You are 

10 talking about tax policy or something. 

11 MR. LEWIS: Something that would 

12 keep people in business. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That would 

14 typically not be the purview of DOE. That 

15 would be an extra deal. That would be beyond 

16 DOE's potential for remedy. 

17 Okay. Yes, Charlie, please. 

18 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, 

19 ACCA. 

20 A question about the MIA. At the 

21 beginning we heard a lot of discussion about 

22 manufacturers and assemblers, who is what. 
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1 Does this look at manufacturers and 

2 assemblers or just manufacturers of the 

3 components that make up a walk-in cooler or 

4 freezer? 

5 MR. LAU: So in this case, we took a 

6 strict definition of manufacturers of the 

7 covered components. 

8 MR. McCRUDDEN: Okay, so this 

9 analysis isn't looking at the impact on the 

10 small, I will call them assemblers. 

11 MR. LAU: It does not look at 

12 installation contractors. 

13 MR. McCRUDDEN: Okay. I will just 

14 add on for the small manufacturers who are 

15 here who may be reluctant to provide 

16 information to DOE on certain aspects of 

17 their businesses, you can provide 

18 confidential business information that is not 

19 shared with anyone. And I would suggest that 

20 you all do that, if you are willing, because 

21 I think it is going to help them understand 

22 where you are all coming from. 
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1 MR. LAU: Thank you. Yes, I will 

2 reiterate that point. And that is, any 

3 information you submit to DOE either here on 

4 the spoken record or in written comments, it 

5 becomes part of the public record. 

6 If there is information you think 

7 would help steer the analysis in a better 

8 direction, however, you wish to remain 

9 confidential, you are able to enter into an 

10 NDA with Navigant and the other contractors. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And that is 

12 entirely confidential. 

13 MR. LAU: Right. 

14 MR. LEWIS: And American Panel did 

15 some of that and they haven't told anybody up 

16 to now. So, it works. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Good. 

18 MR. LEWIS: Everybody ought to send 

19 it in. 

20 MR. LAU: Along those lines, you 

21 know in the NOPR the way we -- 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Michael. 
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1 MR. KIDO: Yes, just to clarify, all 

2 of that would be subject to various federal 

3 statutes. So, just to make that clear. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

5 you. 

6 MR. LAU: In the NOPR we quantify 

7 the impacts on small manufacturers from 

8 conversion costs and we put it in terms of 

9 percent of revenue and percent of operating 

10 profit. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon, you have 

12 a question or comment? 

13 MR. McHUGH: Yes, this is actually 

14 about the table on the previous slide. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Microphone, 

16 Jon. 

17 MR. McHUGH: Slide 76. And so, you 

18 have a fixed number for the conversion costs 

19 for the industry and you have a broad range 

20 of potential changes in net present value. 

21 What are the other costs, besides conversion 

22 costs? I mean are you looking at elasticity 
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1 of sales of products or what sort of driving 

2 a fairly broad range. 

3 MR. LAU: For this particular 

4 rulemaking, it is a sensitivity to markups, 

5 whether manufacturers will pass on the full 

6 price increases to their consumers or whether 

7 they are only able to pass a partial amount 

8 to their consumers. 

9 MR. McHUGH: Okay. So, it is a 

10 level of competitiveness in that market. I 

11 see. Thank you. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, let's 

13 move on. Oh, a question. Robert. 

14 MR. WILKINS: I would like to change 

15 gears from the small manufacturers and 

16 reflect back on refrigeration systems. As 

17 you recall, we discussed earlier that a 

18 certain portion of these aren't sold as a 

19 system. They are built up in the field by 

20 the contractor, who buys a condensing unit, 

21 an indoor unit, various other components and 

22 controls and then assembles on the job site. 
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1 There are a number of us, my company 

2 included, who produce condensing units but 

3 don't produce the evaporator assemblies. So, 

4 we would, under this rulemaking, it appears 

5 to be we would be precluded from this 

6 business, since we don't make the 

7 refrigeration system, we only make a part of 

8 it. So, we would be impacted by not being 

9 able -- being forced out of this business. 

10 And there are several of our competitors in 

11 this category. 

12 I am curious how we should respond 

13 to this and how the impact on our businesses 

14 would be evaluated by the DOE. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's see if 

16 we can -- so can you offer a response, Chris? 

17 MR. LAU: Sure. I think there are 

18 two things here. One is, you are correct 

19 under the current definition. It is a 

20 manufacturer's complete system that has been 

21 analyzed. So you could submit comment as to 

22 the role of your business industry and the 
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1 anticipated impacts. 

2 Two, if we take the bifurcation 

3 route, which I don't know if that is DOE's 

4 intention, however, if we were to take that 

5 route, your company would be considered in 

6 the analysis as a manufacturer of the unit 

7 cooler or the condensing unit. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, 

9 Ellis. 

10 MR. CRAIG: He brings up a pretty 

11 good point. If we are not breaking the 

12 condensers away from the evaporators that the 

13 manufacturer has to supply them as a system 

14 and the definition of a manufacturer, as far 

15 as what the DOE has always approved means 

16 that the contractor out in the field, which 

17 could be the manufacturer, because he is 

18 picking the coil and he is picking the 

19 condensing unit, then technically, he would 

20 have to do testing to do that. And since a 

21 contractor in the field is not going to go to 

22 testing to see if he can pick a coil and pick 
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1 a condensing unit, technically, the 

2 contractors out in the field now are 

3 manufacturers. So, therefore, they won't be 

4 selling anything but complete systems. So 

5 that would even hurt him worse. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Robert. 

7 MR. WILKINS: Robert. As you can 

8 see, it has a serious impact on our business 

9 and potentially has the effect of driving us 

10 out of the business if it is precluded from 

11 continuing to provide condensing units as the 

12 industry does today. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, let's 

14 proceed. I think we are on slide 80. 

15 (Pause.) 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Here we go. 

17 MS. COUGHLIN: Sorry about that. 

18 So, I am going to talk about the life-cycle 

19 costs subgroup analysis. This is an analysis 

20 that is done to identify a group of consumers 

21 or purchasers of the equipment who may have 

22 some aspect of their economics that is 
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1 different from the population averages. 

2 For most applications that refers to 

3 small businesses. And in this particular 

4 case, DOE used small restaurants as a 

5 representative of small business users of the 

6 equipment. The main difference is with small 

7 businesses is that they have higher 

8 electricity prices. They also have higher 

9 cost of capital, typically, and they may have 

10 higher markup channels because they don't 

11 have access to national accounts. 

12 So, DOE goes through the life-cycle 

13 cost analysis and simply changes those 

14 distributions on discount rates and changes 

15 the electricity prices to recalculate the LCC 

16 for the subgroups. 

17 And there is a series of tables in 

18 the notice in Section 5 that present the LCC 

19 results for the population as a whole and 

20 then for this subgroup of small businesses. 

21 And generally what happens is that even 

22 though the purchase price and cost of capital 
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1 may be higher, most small businesses also 

2 have substantially higher electricity prices 

3 than the average. 

4 So for electricity pricing, the 

5 relevant definition of small is the size of 

6 the peak load for the building. So, looking 

7 at individual small restaurants and say 

8 stores, the electricity prices can be 10 to 

9 20 percent higher than the average. There is 

10 quite a large premium associated with small 

11 businesses. 

12 So, they tend to balance the 

13 increased purchase cost and overall the LCC 

14 results only change by a few percent. There 

15 is some variability but there is really no 

16 major differences. 

17 And the cost-effectiveness that 

18 contributes to the determination of the TSL 

19 is not affected by the small business 

20 subgroup analysis. I think that is it. Yes. 

21 So, another side analysis that DOE 

22 produces is the emissions analysis. And then 
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1 again, this follows pretty much in a 

2 straightforward way from the energy savings 

3 analysis. So these are just numbers that DOE 

4 quotes and the emissions that are considered 

5 are carbon dioxide, NOx, mercury, and sulfur 

6 dioxide are power sector pollutants and then 

7 nitrous oxide, N20 and methane CH4 are 

8 greenhouse gases. 

9 So these again are part of a general 

10 federal government policy framework. DOE 

11 does these calculations and publishes the 

12 results. 

13 So, the emissions reductions are 

14 tabulated here. Here again, they generally 

15 scale with energy savings. And for methane 

16 and nitrous oxide, these emissions reductions 

17 are actually coming from the full fuel cycle 

18 analysis. So, these come from the upstream 

19 activities associated with energy production. 

20 Now, there is again a broad federal 

21 government instruction about monetizing the 

22 emissions reductions. An interagency process 
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1 was convened several years ago to develop 

2 what is called the Social Cost of Carbon, 

3 which is a value associated with the damages 

4 that could occur from CO2 pollution and a 

5 benefit associated with avoiding those 

6 damages. 

7 So, these Social Cost of Carbon 

8 numbers currently include agricultural 

9 productivity, health effects, property damage 

10 from sea level rise, and a number of 

11 ecosystem changes. 

12 And recently, the U.S. government 

13 updated their Social Cost of Carbon estimates 

14 and these are the values. They range from 

15 $12.90 per ton to $117 per metric ton of 

16 emissions. 

17 For some reason we quote -- this is 

18 following the Energy Information Agency 

19 Practice, we quote CO2 in metric tons and 

20 everything else in U.S. tons. And also DOE 

21 monetizes NOx emissions as well. But these 

22 monetized values are not added to the NPV 
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1 numbers that you saw earlier. They are 

2 quoted separately. 

3 So, this gives you a table again of 

4 pretty much just straight arithmetic. You 

5 take the emission savings. You multiply them 

6 by the various values for the Social Cost of 

7 Carbon. And then again over our analysis 

8 period, those are discounted at various 

9 discount rates as shown on the table. So in 

10 magnitude, the Social Cost of Carbon numbers 

11 can be fairly significant. 

12 Let's see. And these are the tables 

13 for the NOx monetization of NOx emissions. 

14 And then another analysis that is 

15 done as part of the set of routine analyses 

16 for all products. It is what is called the 

17 utility impact analysis. So, given the 

18 reduction in electricity demand that arises 

19 from the amended standards, you have a 

20 reduction in the requirement to generate 

21 electricity. So, there is impacts on the 

22 utility sector in the form of reduced 
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1 installed capacity and reduced generation. 

2 So, DOE calculates or estimates 

3 these numbers using the National Energy 

4 Modeling System, a version that is adapted to 

5 this program, which is known as NEMS-BT. The 

6 output in the utility impacts chapter of the 

7 TSD shows more detail. But essentially, we 

8 get reductions in total generation, 

9 reductions in generation by fuel type, and 

10 reductions in the installed capacity. 

11 So again, this shows the total 

12 installed capacity reductions by TSL in the 

13 various out years. And again, these are 

14 based relative now to AEO's baseline 

15 forecast. And electricity generation 

16 reductions, which are pretty much the 

17 equivalent of the energy savings predicted by 

18 the NIA plus transmission losses. 

19 And then the last additional 

20 analysis that is done is the employment 

21 analysis. So this is indirect employment 

22 impacts associated with the changes in the 
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1 expenditures. So, this does not include 

2 employment inside the manufacturers directly. 

3 So, the method used is called an 

4 ImSET model. If you are familiar with 

5 input/output models that are used in economic 

6 modeling, there is a correlation, 

7 essentially, between expenditures in various 

8 industries. The fundamental idea is that the 

9 LCC savings frees up dollars, which can be 

10 spent elsewhere in the economy and that may 

11 have an impact in creating additional jobs. 

12 On the other hand, if you were 

13 lowering the expenditures to the electricity 

14 sector, there may be an impact of reduced 

15 jobs related to electricity. So this model 

16 attempts to balance all of those impacts and 

17 come up with an estimate of future employment 

18 impacts do to the standard. 

19 So, these are four -- each standard 

20 level which is quoted in the start year in 

21 2021, the overall national impacts are on the 

22 order of one to a few thousand of jobs. It 
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1 is a positive number. That is the most 

2 significant thing. So, the model doesn't 

3 suggest a negative employment impact. And of 

4 course, these are not enormously certain 

5 numbers but they are essentially a close to 

6 negligible impact on employment. 

7 The final, I think it is the final 

8 one, the regulatory impact analysis is 

9 designed to look at whether a voluntary or 

10 essentially a non-regulatory program could 

11 achieve energy savings comparable to the 

12 proposed standard. 

13 So, the non-regulatory alternatives 

14 that are considered are very dependent on 

15 what has been tested already in the market. 

16 So, DOE does not actually invent a voluntary 

17 program to compare the standards program to. 

18 It looks for evidence that voluntary program 

19 designs could achieve certain results. 

20 So, in a broad sense, the type of 

21 non-regulatory action would be say instead of 

22 programs possibly operated at the state level 
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1 or by utilities for early replacement of 

2 inefficient equipment, prescriptive 

3 standards, consumer tax credits or 

4 manufacturer tax credits, consumer rebates, 

5 and ENERGY STAR type voluntary efficiency 

6 targets and government procurement. 

7 MR. LEWIS: Katie, what would be the 

8 manufacturer tax credit, who that would come 

9 from? 

10 MS. COUGHLIN: Well, that would 

11 depend on specifics. It could be a state or 

12 a federal government tax credit. 

13 MR. LEWIS: And what starts that 

14 process? 

15 MS. COUGHLIN: Legislation, 

16 generally. So you look at say for 

17 manufacturing of solar panels. There are 

18 numerous tax incentives associated with that. 

19 So, these are usually, there is some 

20 stakeholder community that will do that. 

21 So, for this product there is very 

22 little in terms of existing programs for DOE 
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1 to look at in terms of results. So, what DOE 

2 did for this analysis is just assumed that if 

3 you moved a certain fraction of the market to 

4 a TSL, what would be the savings associated 

5 with that. And that is done by going into 

6 the national impacts model and simply 

7 changing the market share of efficient 

8 equipment. 

9 So, when you pass a standard, you 

10 know 100 percent of people are supposed to go 

11 to the standard. If you have some kind of 

12 voluntary program, you may get five or ten 

13 percent of people moving to that standard. 

14 So, then the output is just the 

15 national energy savings and the NPV 

16 associated with the voluntary program. 

17 So, there are some numbers quoted in 

18 the TSD, but again, these are hypothetical 

19 based on if you could move a certain segment 

20 of the market, this is what you would get. 

21 And I think the only ones that were 

22 considered because, again, there is no 
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1 existing voluntary program to use as a 

2 template. So, consumer tax credits and 

3 rebate programs were considered explicitly 

4 for this analysis. 

5 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, I'm done. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Charlie? 

7 MR. McCRUDDEN: It is my 

8 understanding that this equipment may qualify 

9 perhaps in new restaurant construction only 

10 for a 15-year depreciation schedule. Did you 

11 look at that? 

12 MS. COUGHLIN: That has not been, no. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie, say 

14 it again. What is that? 

15 MR. McCRUDDEN: So, at the end of 

16 2012, as part of tax extenders, there is the 

17 50/60 federal tax incentives that are out 

18 there. Some of it is known as the 15-year 

19 accelerated depreciation for qualified 

20 restaurant, retail and there is one other 

21 type of building. It is my understanding 

22 that this equipment is considered part of 
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1 that allowance, only for new restaurants -- 

2 oh, leasehold. That is the other. That is 

3 the third one, leasehold buildings. 

4 I have never seen data on how many 

5 building owners take advantage of this. But 

6 if the product currently has a 39-year 

7 depreciation schedule or a 20-year, I think 

8 it is probably a 39 as a building fixture, 15 

9 is a little bit better incentive. I don't 

10 know if you want to look at that, do some 

11 research on that. 

12 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, thank you. 

13 MR. McCRUDDEN: It would be in 

14 Section 179(K) and then I don't know the 

15 follow-up numbers but 179(K). 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks 

17 for that. 

18 Rebecca. Now we are going to hear 

19 from Rebecca Legett on the proposed standard 

20 segment. We are getting near the end of it, 

21 folks. Hang in there. 

22 MS. LEGETT: So this is pretty much 
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1 the final section of the presentation. I am 

2 going to be talking about the trial standard 

3 levels in more detail than we heard about 

4 before and how this actually plays into the 

5 proposed standard itself, you know, what you 

6 have all been waiting for. 

7 So again, getting into more detail 

8 than before, the trial standard levels are 

9 how we tried to make sense of the fact that 

10 if you have a bunch of ELs for refrigeration 

11 systems, panels, doors, you have hundreds of 

12 combinations. So, what we did here was we 

13 tried to pick out combinations of ELs that 

14 were significant in some way and corresponded 

15 to certain criteria and represented a range 

16 of the walk-ins market. 

17 So, for refrigeration system levels, 

18 we considered three different criteria. One 

19 criterion was the highest efficiency level 

20 that could be met by systems utilizing all 

21 compressor types. Earlier, I mentioned that 

22 we considered systems with hermetic 
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1 reciprocating, scroll, and semi-hermetic, 

2 based on comments. One level we considered 

3 was one that was chosen not to disadvantage 

4 one or the other type of compressor in 

5 response to comments. 

6 For refrigeration systems, we also 

7 considered a level that maximizes the net 

8 present value. And finally, the level that 

9 maximizes the energy savings, which also 

10 happens to be the maximum energy savings with 

11 a positive NPV. 

12 For envelope components, that is 

13 panels, display doors, and non-display doors, 

14 we considered a level that picked the 

15 efficiency levels that got you the maximum 

16 energy savings with positive NPV for display 

17 doors and kept panels and non-display doors 

18 at the current baseline. That is, no 

19 standards for this. And this was directly in 

20 response to comments that the panel and non21 display door industry was made up of a large 

22 number of small business manufacturers. So, 
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1 we did consider a level to minimize those 

2 impacts. 

3 Another level, again, a level that 

4 maximizes the net present value, a level that 

5 maximizes the energy savings but maintains a 

6 positive net present value and, finally, max 

7 tech, level with maximum energy savings. 

8 So there is three criteria for 

9 refrigeration systems, four for envelopes, 

10 that is 12 total. And out of those we picked 

11 six that, again, represented the range and 

12 ordered the composite TSLs one to six by the 

13 overall energy savings for that combination 

14 of efficiency levels. 

15 So, I am going to actually go to the 

16 next slide before taking questions because 

17 that hopefully illustrates this. Again, here 

18 is the matrix of -- hopefully you can all see 

19 that -- refrigeration system criteria, and 

20 envelope component criteria and the 

21 combinations that we chose as potential trial 

22 standard levels. And the one in red, TSL 4, 
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1 is the one that we are proposing as the 

2 proposed standard that maximizes NPV but we 

3 are considering all of these. 

4 Does anyone have any questions on 

5 this? I know it is a little complicated. 

6 Okay, so I will move on to the next 

7 slide because this is getting back to what 

8 this means for you, the manufacturer or you, 

9 the consumer, the level -- trying to match 

10 the level to what we think the design options 

11 would be. And this is just an example table 

12 for panels. The different classes of panels. 

13 There is structural panels, medium 

14 temperature, structural panels, low 

15 temperature, and freezer floor panels. 

16 Again, the rest of the -- we have 

17 tables for each type of component and that is 

18 in Appendix 10(D). So please take a look at 

19 those. 

20 One thing to notice here is that for 

21 any given component, going from one TSL to 

22 the next is not necessarily going to be 
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1 increasing linearly. And again, this is 

2 because, as we saw, there are different 

3 combinations and some of them are more 

4 stringent for refrigeration. Some are more 

5 stringent for envelopes. So really, you have 

6 several combinations there. 

7 So, summarizing the proposed 

8 standards, recapping the metrics. Again, 

9 these follow from the test procedure and we 

10 discussed the metrics a little earlier in 

11 this presentation. For refrigeration 

12 systems, it is the minimum AWEF, which is 

13 basically measure of system efficiency. For 

14 panels, it is maximum U-factor, where U15 factor is basically a measure of panel 

16 conductivity. And for doors it is maximum 

17 daily energy use, which accounts for the 

18 energy used by a theoretical refrigeration 

19 system to remove the heat from the 

20 refrigeration system that is contributed by 

21 or through the door, added to any electrical 

22 components of the door. 
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1 And realizing that different sizes 

2 of equipment or different characteristics of 

3 equipment may affect their ability to meet a 

4 certain standard, we expressed the proposed 

5 standards as equations. And I know the issue 

6 box is here but I am actually going to show 

7 some examples before asking for comment just 

8 to be able to visualize this. 

9 So for refrigeration systems, this 

10 is TSL 4. These are the proposed standards 

11 for the different classes of refrigeration 

12 systems. We have the equations for all the 

13 TSLs in the NOPR. So, please take a look. 

14 The thing to note here is that at 

15 least for each dedicated condensing class, it 

16 is a linear equation up to a certain capacity 

17 and then it levels off. So this is what it 

18 would look like for a dedicated condensing 

19 low temperature outdoor system at TSL 4 up to 

20 that threshold level of 9,000 BTUs per hour, 

21 which we are proposing is the cut-off point 

22 between small and large. And you may or may 
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1 not agree with that. And please comment to 

2 that effect in your written comments. 

3 So you go up to a certain AWEF based 

4 on your capacity. And then it levels off at 

5 the larger capacities. 

6 For panels, these are, again, the 

7 proposed standards at TSL 4. And these are 

8 quadratic equations and they are based on the 

9 ratio of edge to core area. And you can 

10 calculate this out of the test procedure. 

11 But the reason we did this is 

12 because DOE recognizes that panels are 

13 different shapes. Panels, may have different 

14 edge to core ratios, depending on the shapes. 

15 They didn't want to penalize a panel. Like 

16 say you need a panel to fit in a certain 

17 space. They didn't want to penalize you 

18 based on the shape of your panel. So, here 

19 you can see that -- say you are at the end of 

20 the walk-in and you have to build a long 

21 skinny panel and you are going to have a high 

22 frame-to-foam ratio. Well, the frame, say 
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1 you have a wood frame. And I know we have 

2 been talking about this but bear with me. 

3 Say you have a wood frame. You are not going 

4 to be able to meet a standard that is based 

5 on a panel made entirely out of foam or a 

6 panel with a lower, say a square panel with a 

7 low frame-to-foam ratio. So it is based on 

8 the ratio and this just illustrates that. 

9 And in the larger sizes, like say 32 

10 square feet, eight by four, it really doesn't 

11 make that much of a difference, the frame-to12 foam ratio. So, it levels off down there. 

13 The next two are going to be for 

14 doors. And this is all doors, passage doors, 

15 freight doors, display doors. And these are 

16 just based on the area of the door. And here 

17 is how they are graphed. At TSL 4, the 

18 larger the area, the more energy use 

19 allowance you get. The same for display 

20 doors. 

21 And so I am going to stop now and 

22 ask for questions on any aspect of those, 
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1 particularly, let's go back to the question, 

2 comment on the TSL equations. And we are 

3 asking for data or comment on how the energy 

4 efficiency or energy consumption of the 

5 equipment would vary with size or capacity. 

6 MR. SENTER: Guy Senter here. Let's 

7 start with refrigeration. 

8 MS. LEGETT: Yes. 

9 MR. SENTER: I see you have used 

10 those formulas there, the top two and then 

11 the fourth one. They equal max tech? 

12 MS. LEGETT: Let's see. On the top 

13 two -- equal max tech. I think so but we 

14 will have to look that up. 

15 MR. SENTER: Yes, okay. They equal 

16 max tech. Okay? 

17 MS. LEGETT: Yes, okay. 

18 MR. SENTER: I'm a little curious if 

19 like you guys have got any build-in fudge 

20 factor. This is federal regulation, not -- 

21 if this was law you are going to force us to 

22 make these machines. 
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1 MS. LEGETT: So I will say that this 

2 is a performance standard and not a 

3 prescriptive standard. So, you don't have to 

4 use the exact technologies that we analyzed 

5 in max tech. 

6 That said, what we are saying is 

7 that yes, we are proposing a level that, 

8 under our analysis, you would have to use all 

9 the technologies considered, in order to meet 

10 that standard. And if that is not feasible, 

11 we would ask for data and like a reason why 

12 that would be, or which technologies are not 

13 cost-effective, for instance. 

14 MR. SENTER: Okay, turning over to 

15 the panels. Just as a mathematical deal, 

16 taking the edge over the core seems like a 

17 little inappropriate, I guess. Like for 

18 instance, we have panels that are seven and 

19 five-eighths wide. We don't have wood, so a 

20 previous federal regulation says we have a 

21 four-inch width on both sides. So, now we 

22 have got all edge and it can be any U-factor 
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1 or we cannot calculate it. 

2 So, perhaps a better metric would be 

3 area edge over area total and you could redo 

4 your calculations, your formula on that 

5 because you just got -- it doesn't look 

6 mathematically stable, especially when you 

7 square it. 

8 MS. LEGETT: Okay. Well, okay, 

9 thanks. Thanks for your comment. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So those 

11 comments are in writing. Right? 

12 MR. SENTER: Yes. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, Harmon. 

14 MR. LEWIS: Rebecca, could you 

15 explain this chart higher frame-to-foam ratio 

16 means they can have a higher U-value? 

17 MS. LEGETT: Yes. 

18 MR. LEWIS: Why? 

19 MS. LEGETT: Because the assumption 

20 was that the frame of a panel would be 

21 naturally more conductive than the interior 

22 foam part. And it should really say edge to 
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1 center, like area of the edge versus area of 

2 the center of the panel. There is a way in 

3 the test procedure to calculate exactly what 

4 those areas are. Again, that was our 

5 assumption that the edge area would have a 

6 higher conductivity than the center. That 

7 may or may not be correct. 

8 MR. LEWIS: No. 

9 MS. LEGETT: It's not? 

10 MR. LEWIS: It would be very correct 

11 in a panel that is one-foot wide and eight 

12 feet high, that edge perimeter frame means 

13 either hard rail or wood is 31.6 percent of 

14 that panel. It is going to have an R-value 

15 of 12, 8, 14. And I don't think you are 

16 penalizing them far enough for what is really 

17 happening. 

18 MS. LEGETT: In what sense are we 

19 not penalizing them? 

20 MR. LEWIS: The overall R-value of 

21 that whole panel. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What should 
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1 it be, Harmon? 

2 MS. LEGETT: Yes. 

3 MR. LEWIS: Well, it should be, as 

4 Guy mentioned, you ought to do the 

5 mathematics of the percentage of the panel 

6 that has the R-value of 32 and the percentage 

7 of the panel that has an R-value of wood of 

8 eight or what high density of urethane of 12, 

9 13, whatever they can test it out at. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: If I heard 

11 Guy correctly, he said the area of edge over 

12 the area of the total. 

13 MR. LEWIS: Right and that is what 

14 I'm saying. That you would take the 

15 percentage of the panel that has R-value 32 

16 material and the percentage of the panel that 

17 has whatever other R-value and you add those 

18 two together to get what the 100 percent 

19 composite panel has. And that panel would 

20 need to again comply with R-32 or R-25, which 

21 may mean it may need to be six inches thick, 

22 if you have too much rail. 
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1 MS. LEGETT: But the EISA standard 

2 for R-value excludes structural members, if I 

3 recall. 

4 MR. LEWIS: Right, but they don't 

5 have to have a structural member there if you 

6 do the same thing with soft foam. And you 

7 are losing all that energy savings. You are 

8 using up all that foreign oil. They don't 

9 need it for structural. They are doing it 

10 because that is how they manufacture. So 

11 there is tremendous energy savings there that 

12 you are not reaping. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

14 you. Ellis. 

15 MR. CRAIG: I think if one of the 

16 test procedures, if I remember right, there 

17 is a specific size of a panel that is tested. 

18 And then that is where they come up with that 

19 formula. So, it is not like they are 

20 checking little panels versus big panels. 

21 They have a specific size that is in that 

22 test that we can't get done. And no one 
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1 does. But it is like a two-foot by two-foot 

2 sample and you have to run three of them. 

3 And then you test a core and it goes through 

4 that process. So, it kind of eliminates the 

5 idea of this ratio of center to edge. At 

6 least that is what it looks like on that. 

7 But Harmon is right that if you have a panel, 

8 it has got soft foam all the way to the edge. 

9 It is going to have the same R-value, 

10 theoretically, at the edge as it would in the 

11 center because it is the same foam. 

12 So, there are different ways of 

13 manufacturing panels and there are. So, we 

14 will just see how this plays out. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks. 

16 MS. LEGETT: So if you could 

17 recommend how we would change this, that 

18 would be helpful for us. 

19 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. 

20 What I ask in making your comments, is that 

21 you go back and review what we previously 

22 discussed in the test procedure rulemaking. 
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1 I think we, at length, discussed our 

2 interpretation of the structural members and 

3 how that should be accounted for in looking 

4 at the R-value or the U-value. And what we 

5 decided there is that everything except for 

6 the metal facers, the metal skin, should not 

7 be included. 

8 Now, if there is a reason for us to 

9 reconsider that, we would, of course, want to 

10 hear that. And of course, there is 

11 rulemaking. But I think that would have some 

12 bearing on coming to the results that you are 

13 talking about, Harmon, in trying to figure 

14 that out. 

15 So, I think that looking at what we 

16 said before in rulemaking regarding this to 

17 help you inform your comments and help us 

18 figure out where we need to go to best 

19 accommodate what you think would work for the 

20 industry. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's good. 

22 Thank you. Guy? 
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1 MR. SENTER: Does the scope of this 

2 NOPR include the actual testing or is that 

3 coming up later? 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael Kido. 

5 MR. KIDO: This particular proposal 

6 focuses squarely on the standards, not the 

7 testing. However, if you have comments on 

8 the testing itself, any particular aspects, 

9 any particular technical issues, we will 

10 definitely consider that. 

11 MR. SENTER: Okay, because there is 

12 a lot in the NOPR and like the various sizes, 

13 small, medium, and large, leads me to imagine 

14 that you wish to test three different sizes 

15 and get perhaps a curve. You know and I 

16 don't know if you guys are going to test 

17 three or however many panels, using your 

18 formula and come up with any three failure, 

19 model fails or oh, we have got this curve 

20 here and you cannot make a panel that is 

21 under 11 inches wide or something like that. 

22 I am really curious about how this is going 
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1 to play out as far as the bottom line. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Actually, we 

3 are about to get to the Department's 

4 description of the bottom line. 

5 Rebecca, did you cover doors? 

6 MS. LEGETT: Yes. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You did. 

8 Okay, I just wanted to make sure. 

9 Let's get to -- let's go through the 

10 remaining slides. 

11 MS. LEGETT: That is pretty much it. 

12 This is the summary of the proposed rule 

13 impacts. And this is all those -- I mean 

14 this is just a recap of all the analyses that 

15 we have already been discussing. So I am not 

16 going to go through this in too much detail. 

17 Again, these are all there in the NOPR. 

18 I mean the last slide is seeking 

19 comment on the appropriateness of choosing 

20 TSL 4. We selected TSL 4 -- DOE is proposing 

21 TSL 4 from the range of TSLs that it 

22 considered. That said, it will consider 
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1 other possibilities, as well. I believe 

2 someone mentioned a TSL 4.5. So if you have 

3 alternatives that DOE should consider, please 

4 submit those as comments. 

5 I did want to make a note. Someone 

6 mentioned about submitting confidential 

7 business information. Section 7(d) of the 

8 NOPR has details about how do to that. And I 

9 would urge you to read that carefully before 

10 doing anything. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

12 Ellis. Now we have an opportunity for 

13 closing remarks. Anybody that wishes to make 

14 concluding remarks, cover additional or 

15 issues that have not been covered completely 

16 today. Ellis. 

17 MR. CRAIG: I appreciate the effort 

18 the DOE is trying to work with us to try and 

19 get this thing worked out. It does mean a 

20 lot to us and it affects our business a lot. 

21 So we are patient and emotional about it. 

22 I had one question before a final 
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1 remark. Am I understanding that the test 

2 procedure is still under -- I thought it was 

3 settled. 

4 MR. KIDO: It is settled but to the 

5 extent that anyone has particular issues that 

6 they want to let us know about, I mean, we 

7 will consider them. But it is just that we 

8 don't have an open rulemaking to create any 

9 amendments at this point for the test 

10 procedure. 

11 MR. CRAIG: That is kind of what our 

12 understanding was. But again, I think there 

13 are -- I have concerns about TSL 4 for the 

14 benefit and TSL 2 would be sufficient. It 

15 seems like we are operating under it right 

16 now and it would be very little impact in the 

17 industry but still give us a lot of -- we 

18 have already gained a lot of performance 

19 capability from what we have already done. 

20 And that is a point that I would like to see 

21 it considered and I will put it in my 

22 documentation as we have sent it. 
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1 But again, we have worked with a lot 

2 of people and I appreciate the time and 

3 effort you guys put forward. I know we don't 

4 see it all but we have these blank periods 

5 where everything disappears for about a year 

6 or two and then all of a sudden it comes back 

7 up and we are wondering what happened to 

8 that. You know, I thought the whole thing 

9 was over. 

10 But anyway, thank you very much. I 

11 appreciate it. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Mike. 

13 MR. STRAUB: I have two items. One, 

14 where we had asked about the model and the 

15 data set for the analysis and you just ask if 

16 we could get some commitment on timing so 

17 that we will have an opportunity to do that 

18 analysis before we finish our comments. 

19 And then just a point of 

20 clarification when Robert Wilkins was asked 

21 about condensing unit only manufacturers and, 

22 based on the ruling, that if we didn't 
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1 bifurcate, that they could no longer produce 

2 condensing units. That was complete news to 

3 me that that was the intent of the ruling. 

4 So, can anybody clarify that? So if 

5 you are not a systems manufacturer, you can't 

6 continue to produce components. 

7 MR. RAWALD: I'm not certain I 

8 understood the remark to say that. I thought 

9 he was saying that his business could no 

10 longer do that. 

11 MR. STRAUB: Correct. So if he is 

12 only manufacturing condensing units and this 

13 is a system only -- 

14 MR. RAWALD: Right. I thought that 

15 he was approaching it from a financial point 

16 of view. I didn't think that he was talking 

17 about what we were regulating out of 

18 business. That is not anything that we are 

19 under discussion at the moment. 

20 MR. STRAUB: Okay. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That was 

22 Doug. Thank you, Doug. 
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1 Yes, Guy? 

2 MR. SENTER: Yes, Guy. One more 

3 thing. Thank you very much. Two or three 

4 years ago, it looked like you guys were 

5 grappling with an impossible task and it 

6 seems like you are making a lot of progress. 

7 I had thought about the doors. You 

8 know a lot of things happen in a door that 

9 are independent. It is the HMI, the human 

10 machine interface. People want a window, 

11 maybe for security or safety reasons. And of 

12 course you are trying to eliminate the 

13 condensation because you have got to open the 

14 door. And I am wondering, maybe you need to 

15 componentize that. Because if a customer 

16 asks for a door or doesn't, it should not -- 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: A window. 

18 MR. SENTER: A window, yes -- it 

19 should not impact my heater core 

20 calculations. And if someone wishes to put a 

21 control system on there that uses 

22 electricity, et cetera, that should not 
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1 impact the rest of it. And we really don't 

2 want to have to start putting windows in the 

3 panel beside the door so that we can sell 

4 them or whatever. 

5 So, I am thinking that perhaps that 

6 would be a better solution is to get to the 

7 periphery, look at the heater core draw. If 

8 you have prescriptive -- if you don't want 

9 heated windows in coolers, why not prescribe 

10 it? Or if you have specific goals for the 

11 windows in a door, why not specify that 

12 separately? 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, Buzz. 

14 MR. SCHAEFFER: Buzz Schaeffer, from 

15 Hussmann. 

16 I just have a couple of 

17 clarification questions, if I may, so we can 

18 take away the proper information. 

19 Scenario: I am selling unit coolers 

20 to a customer. He is buying refrigeration 

21 from someone else. And someone else is 

22 providing the box panel. I have to maintain 
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1 the AW for multiplex systems. Is that 

2 correct? I need to know what criteria 

3 underneath that scenario I have to maintain. 

4 And then I have three other scenarios. 

5 MS. LEGETT: I don't think I can 

6 speak to how DOE will certify systems like 

7 that. 

8 MR. SCHAEFFER: Pardon me? 

9 MS. LEGETT: I don't think I can 

10 speak to how DOE will certify that type of 

11 system. 

12 So you are saying you are selling a 

13 unit cooler and someone else is going to be 

14 selling a dedicated condensing unit just for 

15 that unit cooler? 

16 MR. SCHAEFFER: I don't know what he 

17 is selling. 

18 MS. LEGETT: Okay, fair enough. 

19 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. 

20 So, the way the regulations are currently set 

21 up is that the manufacturer of the completed 

22 refrigeration system is responsible for that 
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1 system. That is the way the certification 

2 regulations are. So, the person that 

3 combines the elements together, puts them 

4 together and then moves that product into the 

5 box, that is the person responsible for 

6 making sure that it complies with the 

7 standards as written. 

8 Now, I have heard a lot of comments 

9 today that we should consider breaking that 

10 down into smaller pieces. And so we are 

11 willing to consider those comments and we 

12 hope that you folks will give us better 

13 clarity about what the right thing to do in 

14 your opinion would be. So, I can't answer 

15 your question definitively about what we will 

16 do, but what we currently do is we require 

17 the manufacturer of the complete system to 

18 be the one responsible for how the system 

19 performs. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Excuse me. 

21 MR. SCHAEFFER: So you are saying 

22 that the installing contractor is 
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1 responsible, then? 

2 MR. RAWALD: Under the way the 

3 current regulations are written, the person 

4 that puts Part A and Part B together to make 

5 the refrigeration system is the person 

6 responsible for the performance of the 

7 refrigeration system, yes. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ellis. 

9 MR. CRAIG: Just to make sure that 

10 doesn't let us off the hook, it is not the 

11 guy you are selecting. If you still 

12 manufacture a walk-in you are responsible for 

13 the walk-in panels. If somebody else is 

14 doing refrigeration, they are still 

15 responsible for meeting the criteria on the 

16 refrigeration unit, say of a condensing unit 

17 or of a system, I guess you would say. 

18 So and then the guy is also 

19 included, the guy that put the two together 

20 and said I am the manufacturer. Am I right? 

21 MR. RAWALD: That is correct, yes. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: John. 
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1 MR. McHUGH: So, I think we have 

2 heard - unlike other times, I think we have 

3 actually heard some consensus that there is a 

4 problem with the current test method, that 

5 AHRI 1250 actually does create this joining 

6 at the hip of the indoor unit and the 

7 dedicated condensing unit. 

8 And I would recommend that DOE 

9 actually revisit the test method because 

10 this, to me, is going to cause a -- one is 

11 less reliability that you have gone through 

12 all this brain damage of writing a standard. 

13 And there is really not a very viable 

14 enforcement mechanism. And I think we would 

15 rather be in a place where there is actually 

16 clarity to the market about what you can 

17 legally sell and say yes, this unit cooler 

18 complies. And you already have this model 

19 for CRE that works this way. 

20 What would be expanded is actually a 

21 separate test method and a separate standard 

22 for condensing units. So, you would have a 
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1 condensing unit standard. You would have a 

2 unit cooler standard. Someone who is selling 

3 unit coolers would say here is what is in the 

4 catalogue. Anyone who buys it is buying a 

5 legal unit cooler. It actually reduces by at 

6 least two orders of magnitude, the number of 

7 ‘‘manufacturers’’ that are involved that you 

8 potentially are supposed to be enforcing. 

9 Because otherwise, what is the process of 

10 actually having any sort of enforcement for 

11 tens of thousands of contractors? 

12 And not only that, you know these 

13 are some really smart people here who design 

14 and build this equipment. It is very 

15 complex. And you know I have got lots of 

16 respect for folks that are mechanical 

17 contractors. But you know, they have 

18 actually got to actually build the thing and 

19 their primary focus is not as much 

20 calculations, et cetera, and have the same 

21 level of technical expertise as the folks who 

22 are the manufacturers. 
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1 So, I know that you originally there 

2 was some legislation that was probably not 

3 written in the best format. But to the 

4 extent that you have already accepted the 

5 concept of the component performance 

6 approach, this next step would actually, I 

7 think, significantly increase the real 

8 savings, not the paper savings, but the real 

9 savings of actually having something 

10 enforceable. 

11 And so now that is kind of the big 

12 picture. And then just on the kind of more 

13 detailed discussion, during the break I 

14 contacted one of our consultants who does 

15 design work for many of the large supermarket 

16 chains. And I asked him the whole question 

17 about a three-year door life. And he said 

18 for display doors, they are typically -- they 

19 go through at least one remodel cycle where 

20 the door is not replaced. And those remodel 

21 cycles are about six years. So he saying 

22 typical life is 12 years for doors. 
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1 MR. LEWIS: Now, that is the display 

2 doors. 

3 MR. McHUGH: So, now that is the 

4 display doors. Right. Exactly. 

5 So, and going back to display doors, 

6 we use low-e films. Basically, they are the 

7 basis for the building efficiency standards. 

8 And you have got lower delta Ts and that 

9 technology is the basis of that standard. 

10 So, I would be really surprised that low-e 

11 films is not cost-effective for display 

12 doors. And we will also be providing some 

13 additional comments about the cost14 effectiveness of occupancy sensing. Many of 

15 the -- you know, it is one of those things 

16 where you look at automobiles. You know 

17 there is all sorts of technologies that are 

18 in race cars and then they are in luxury 

19 cars. And then they make it into your little 

20 Honda Accord or whatever. 

21 So, the same thing is true, I think 

22 of the occupancy sensors. Almost all of the 
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1 major supermarket chains have been using 

2 them. Everyone has been experimenting with 

3 different things. So, this is a significant 

4 fractional market that is already using that. 

5 And my expectation is by 2017 the cost and 

6 the availability of that product is available 

7 for any size system. 

8 So, but we will have more comments 

9 about that later. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

11 MR. McHUGH: Thank you very much. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Buzz. 

13 MR. SCHAEFFER: Yes, this is in 

14 relationship to your question for feedback on 

15 the equations. Just at a high level, the 

16 AWEFs, per se, for like a multiplex system. 

17 MS. LEGETT: Yes. 

18 MR. SCHAEFFER: I don't know if you 

19 want to pull that up, 10.75, 5.53. If you go 

20 to the dedicated condensing unit section, 

21 especially when you get above 9,000 BTUs an 

22 hour, you actually end up with a higher AWEF 
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1 for the dedicated condensing unit, which 

2 doesn't pass the test of reasonableness. 

3 There has been multiple, multiple 

4 studies that have proven that a multiplex 

5 system hooked up to evaporators, uses less 

6 energy than a single compressor unit. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael Kido. 

8 MR. KIDO: If you could sort of 

9 elaborate on that particular issue in your 

10 written comments and maybe cite to the 

11 particular studies that you are referring to, 

12 I think that would be pretty helpful for the 

13 technical team. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jon. 

15 MR. McHUGH: So, I just have a 

16 comment to that. My understanding is that 

17 the EERs for AHRI 1200, I mean that is 

18 basically where we lifted the calculation 

19 method for the multiplex. My understanding 

20 is that they have looked at the latest 

21 technology for dedicated condensing units; 

22 whereas, for the multiplex system, we use the 
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1 old numbers. I don't think those numbers 

2 have been updated in terms of what is the 

3 latest technology for a multiplex system in 

4 terms of its EER. 

5 But it almost really doesn't matter 

6 because it is just sort of a normalizing 

7 factor for the unit cooler. 

8 MR. SCHAEFFER: That would make the 

9 AWEF in a multiplex system even lower, which 

10 would make the discrepancy worse. 

11 MR. McHUGH: I thought what you were 

12 saying is that the multiplex system has a 

13 lower AWEF than for the -- isn't that what 

14 your comment was? 

15 MR. SCHAEFFER: Yes, what the 

16 comment is is that on a BTU per watt basis, 

17 the dedicated system has to have a higher 

18 energy efficiency than the multiplex. 

19 MR. McHUGH: Yes, so the issue is 

20 this, is that the values that were used to 

21 generate the AWEF, they are values for an old 

22 multiplex system. So, if you actually used a 
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1 newer multiplex system, then you would have 

2 higher AWEFs and you would reduce the 

3 discrepancy. In fact, maybe even flip it. 

4 MR. SCHAEFFER: Possibly. 

5 MR. McHUGH: I was just involved in 

6 that process. So, I think that is the 

7 explanation. 

8 MS. LEGETT: Yes, that is absolutely 

9 right. The multiplex systems are rated by 

10 assuming a certain EER of the multiplex. The 

11 unit coolers in this table are rated by 

12 assuming that they are connected to a 

13 multiplex condensing system of a certain EER. 

14 And that EER is fixed by the test procedure. 

15 So, we can't really control that. 

16 MR. McHUGH: And I don't think -- 

17 AHRI might be able to comment, but I don't 

18 think that the EERs were updated in a number 

19 of years. 

20 MR. LEMMOND: The standard is due to 

21 be -- 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Use the 
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1 microphone. Jon. 

2 MR. LEMMOND: The year on the latest 

3 applicable standard is 2009. So it is due 

4 for an update. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional 

6 comments here? Perhaps final comments. 

7 Harmon. 

8 MR. LEWIS: Just a quick question. 

9 As we go through the reams of charts and 

10 tables, who is a contact name and phone 

11 number that we could ask questions to help us 

12 understand part of that process? Is that 

13 people with Navigant, DOE? How would you 

14 like that handled or who can help us? 

15 MR. LLENZA: Charlie Llenza, 

16 Department of Energy. Feel free to contact 

17 me and then I can point you to the right 

18 person who has the specialty. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Via email, 

20 via telephone? 

21 MR. LLENZA: Via email. I prefer 

22 email. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

2 MR. LLENZA: It is easier and you 

3 can go into the mailbox for the rulemaking at 

4 the website and just send an email through 

5 that. I check that daily. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. I 

7 think we have finished with the slides. Why 

8 don't you advance? 

9 As we promised an opportunity to 

10 make closing remarks, say anything that 

11 hasn't been said sufficiently during the day 

12 today. Jon? No. 

13 Any other remarks? Harmon. 

14 MR. LEWIS: Just a real quick one 

15 because I haven't had a chance to say that we 

16 also appreciate what you all have been doing. 

17 We know it is a monster task. You have got 

18 to remember that it is personal to those of 

19 us that employ people and know their 

20 families, et cetera, that we are very 

21 concerned. But also the rules that are done, 

22 we comply with, even to the point that we 
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1 don't even look for loopholes. That is why 

2 we are just so interested in getting it 

3 right. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, so for 

5 my part, I will thank all of you. I thought 

6 we had a very productive meeting today. And 

7 I encourage you to follow through with your 

8 excellent comments, as you did during the 

9 day. And I wish you safe travels. 

10 Then, I will turn it back to Charles 

11 Llenza for closing remarks. 

12 MR. LLENZA: Yes, I just wanted to 

13 thank everybody for your patience. It has 

14 been a long proceeding today. 

15 I know that we have a lot of work 

16 still ahead of us. But I also want to make 

17 sure that I encourage you guys to provide 

18 comments to the Department in written form 

19 and I just want to remind you that we have a 

20 format for that. And there is an email link 

21 that you should make ample use to send your 

22 comments in. 
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1 Thank you for attending today, on 

2 behalf of the Department. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

4 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

5 matter went off the record at 4:42 p.m.) 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22
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attempting 216:12

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81:6 92:9 93:2

123:21 137:17,18

140:3,6 141:6,8

148:19 157:8

158:11 171:14

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Avenue 1:10

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264:8 267:5 268:6

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300:12,22 301:4

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avoiding 348:5

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72:19 88:5 92:20

95:18,18 115:13

124:13 142:19

149:4,11 154:18

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186:17 195:18

224:9,16 232:10

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271:5 272:11

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313:10 323:10

331:17,21 332:11

341:16 360:7

365:1 371:21

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background 74:20

backing 131:12

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bad 19:1 27:9

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badge 115:15 174:3

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baked 190:6

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basic 58:1 62:6

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beans 189:22

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28:15 33:3 51:6

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198:11 200:15

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Beloit 148:12

benefit 104:21

214:12 215:10,13

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319:8 348:5

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benefits 255:1

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Bermuda 53:2

best 14:3 44:2,11

53:17 56:19 216:8

283:17 336:7

372:18 386:3

better 16:12 59:7

67:21,22 86:20

109:3,9 112:13

184:21 187:10

212:15 216:2

217:10 219:7

245:22 246:1,11

247:11 248:5

265:22 266:1,5

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beyond 56:15 84:5

337:15

bifurcate 88:6

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bifurcating 103:3

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big 18:8,10,20

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162:10 173:20

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246:9,12 247:15

247:17 258:13,15

276:3 281:18

284:11 291:20

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bigger 225:10

303:1

biggest 133:8

301:15

bill 158:12

bit 87:4 115:18

135:7 151:21

172:1 174:12

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bits 182:12

blank 377:4

blast 106:17 107:9

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board 52:3 269:20

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body 58:7

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boiler 222:11

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books 132:12

bore 49:7

boss 188:21

bottom 178:7

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bought 42:5 240:18

box 40:1 41:15

98:10 107:20

157:19 204:10

237:16 239:13,18

241:20 242:1

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246:14 263:3,7

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243:15 244:21

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263:16 266:10

269:13 272:9

273:8 274:16

275:21 276:10,16

277:8 278:2,17,22

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283:12 284:1

285:2,11 288:5,16

291:14 292:5

293:3,22 294:5,22

295:5 297:5,8,11

297:22 298:16

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307:1,4 310:1

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322:22 323:20

324:12,19 330:10

331:9 333:9,14

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355:13 356:16

367:10,13 368:22

369:10 370:13

371:15 372:21

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375:11 377:12

378:21 379:17

380:13 382:20

383:8,22 388:10

388:12 389:7,14

391:22 392:5,19

393:1,6 394:4

395:3

brought 43:8 143:7

144:19

BRUCE 1:19

BTU 316:3 390:16

BTUs 50:6,8

101:19 102:11

119:17 169:20

208:18 362:20

388:21

buck 169:7

Budget 79:15

build 19:15 21:16

89:2 98:18,20

99:1,22 133:5

140:13 156:21

197:11 284:9

286:9 363:20

385:14,18

building 4:9 29:3

109:13 115:16

173:20 177:3

180:4 187:16

191:13,13 197:12

198:21,22 199:7

287:18 288:22

289:10,16 299:10

346:6 355:21

356:5,8 387:7

buildings 21:7 86:8

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builds 60:5 71:22

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build-in 365:19

built 32:1 105:11

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bulk 23:10

bullet 12:18

bunch 75:21 230:8

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burden 30:13

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55:22 57:18 87:16

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burdens 29:15

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113:20 134:21

148:1 189:21

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California 24:11

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California's 109:12

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calls 334:7

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Canadian 141:13

candy 19:14

cap 64:17 122:20

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capable 154:4

capacities 102:8

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capacity 119:16

159:17 197:6,9

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207:16 209:15

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223:1 225:8

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287:13 325:12

350:1,10,12

362:16 363:4

365:5

capital 189:3,4,9

189:13 192:1,5,21

193:1,9 230:2

258:15 261:14

281:16 282:8

345:9,22

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captured 156:10

224:3

car 242:4,7

carbon 25:9,15

133:14 320:16

347:5 348:2,7,13

349:7,10

card 163:2 164:4

care 53:13,16 60:19

61:13 202:11

241:12 271:1

career 202:20

careful 51:14

251:13

carefully 33:14

375:9

Carlo 230:5 282:18

298:20

cars 387:18,19

case 4:17 16:1

101:7 109:19

132:8 170:3,16,16

170:18 216:20

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230:16,17,18

231:4 256:2

308:16 314:6,9

331:15,15 336:18

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cases 17:7 29:5

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201:2 217:10

247:21

cash 185:10 228:16

274:12,13,14

325:18,20

casualty 259:20

260:13

catalog 30:17 32:16

55:19 158:10

159:9

catalogue 90:11

385:4

catch 115:22

categories 178:11

196:14 258:1

290:3 291:3,6

categorized 178:15

category 105:15

129:18 183:5

186:15 215:10,13

215:15,16 309:12

310:19 342:11

caught 323:12

cause 384:10

causing 130:10

142:15

caution 251:20

cave 107:4

CBECS 290:20

ceiling 37:7 98:7

cell 13:20

census 287:7

326:11

center 368:1,2,6

371:5,11

cents 19:8,9,14

20:12,17 160:1

certain 37:4,11

69:6 75:19 171:2

186:2 258:21

271:18 278:7

299:19,19 305:8

330:3 331:2

338:16 341:18

352:4,19 354:3,19

357:15 362:4,16

363:3,16 378:7

391:10,13

certainly 25:3

31:20 74:8,12

81:10 87:18

104:18 145:6

146:8 164:18

313:12

certificates 48:2

certification 17:1,3

17:10,17 31:3

43:1 47:2 50:12

50:18 66:18 70:9

70:15,20 71:5

75:13 76:1,7,12

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83:3,7,22 87:16

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certifications 48:2

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certified 30:2 45:3

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certify 37:15 67:18

83:15 84:6 89:3,9

136:9 329:17

381:6,10

certifying 37:16,19

39:8 44:21

cetera 178:21

379:22 385:20

393:20

CFM 109:14

CFR 37:13 38:2,6

38:15

chain 54:9 62:9

85:15 176:5

240:12 244:13

302:16

chains 386:16

388:1

challenge 164:2

challenging 31:19

chamber 65:5

chance 393:15

chances 11:3

change 18:10 19:18

24:13,18 26:17

70:14 128:3

163:17,18 164:4

165:7 184:7

212:22 213:2,8

215:7 217:15

221:16 229:15,18

229:20 232:6

247:9,16 248:17

250:1,2,13,16

257:17 280:14

297:3 321:1 322:1

322:20 323:1

325:21 328:14

332:12 341:14

346:14 371:17

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changes 110:15

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152:22 153:1,16

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273:8,9 337:17,18

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chart 21:14 195:14

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charts 392:9

cheaper 321:20

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check 159:18

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checking 370:20

chemical 314:2

chemicals 311:22

Chevron 200:17

chevrons 285:18

chicken 221:17

children 292:7

chilled 36:18

chillers 108:5,7,12

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choice 57:14

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choosing 374:19

chose 359:21

chosen 204:4,13

207:5 233:19

254:17,22 256:1

278:8 358:3

Chris 8:3,9 198:14

324:20,21 342:16

Christmas 22:9

222:10

Christopher 1:19

2:5 3:12 192:11

192:12 198:13

chugging 90:4

CH4 347:7

cite 389:10

claims 251:1

clarification 19:21

52:12 71:20 73:22

74:18 124:18

172:1 317:4

377:20 380:17

clarify 83:13 92:20

112:13 125:20

133:18 137:8

146:22 198:15

242:19 261:3

266:7 335:16

340:1 378:4

clarifying 133:21

198:12 279:5

clarity 108:21

382:13 384:16

class 109:19 118:5

118:8 119:7 150:3

156:7 157:3

167:17 204:2

252:20 253:1

255:18 257:9

278:15 287:13

288:21 294:15

362:15

classes 93:6,17 98:3

98:12 99:6 100:16

100:21 101:11

102:2 103:10,10

106:3,14 118:6

124:10 178:12

183:16,17 255:11

289:13,18 318:4

360:12 362:11

classified 180:12

clean 157:11

243:20

clear 54:8 80:19

83:20 125:8

131:20 164:3

179:7 199:18

201:8,9 243:12

260:6 322:4 340:3

clearly 180:10

318:16

clients 240:16

310:13

climate 222:19

close 19:15 23:14

142:17 156:4

210:18 237:20

352:5

closer 20:12 155:8

181:9

closes 12:11

closing 3:15 10:20

375:13 393:10

394:11

clubs 246:9 276:3

cluster 130:4

coat 28:6 151:14,16

152:4,12,17,19

coating 16:3

277:18

coatings 154:11

Cocciardi 1:15 9:7

9:7

coffee 189:22,22

190:3,6

coil 45:15 171:1,1

291:18 292:18

343:18,22

Coke 276:22 277:2

collaborative 87:4

collar 95:21

colleague 53:11

collected 235:6

collection 33:1

44:22 235:8

color 247:9,11

column 256:15

columns 255:21

combination 63:19

97:11 205:18

229:3 315:17

318:10 359:13

combinations

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254:19 278:6

357:12,13 359:21

361:3,6

combine 15:13

combined 15:21

28:7 59:22 96:19

151:22 169:18

328:12,15

combines 310:8

382:3

come 4:17 17:14

24:1 49:15,18

51:6 60:18 61:14

66:10,20 75:20,22

88:5 111:8 116:18

143:9 162:18

195:15 203:15

215:6 216:8

217:17 235:13

242:13 271:5

330:19 331:11

347:18 351:17

353:8 370:18

373:18

comes 52:19 59:14

70:4 73:20 165:10

176:19 183:13

247:1 261:12

299:2 320:21

377:6

comfortable 135:2

195:16

coming 5:12 9:16

19:10 49:1 64:16

77:3,20 105:9

154:1 163:4

177:21 178:4

210:9 214:18

215:12 248:22

275:3 317:16

319:19 321:2

338:22 347:17

372:12 373:3

comment 11:15,17
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commitment 73:17

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commodity 313:20

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community 52:15

353:20

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companies 21:4,15

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83:3,14,15,18

305:17

company 2:4 6:8

23:3 57:10 75:16

83:7,19 181:20

283:18 342:1

343:5

comparable 352:11

compare 133:11

153:13 230:17

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compared 77:15

124:12 219:13

247:7 251:6

comparison 121:9

142:4 257:10

compete 141:21

competition 141:17

competitive 29:11

52:1 226:13

313:16 325:11

332:15

competitiveness

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competitors 342:10

compiled 319:13

complain 222:10

complete 58:18

73:9,18 131:11

342:20 344:4

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completed 195:16

286:10 287:19

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completely 87:5

248:14 375:15

completeness 327:6

complex 168:6

385:15

complexities 81:9

complexity 33:10

compliance 9:8

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67:1 68:9,14 70:2

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75:20 81:4,12

84:8 87:16 88:4

104:12 122:8

325:14

compliant 51:21

56:5,6,15 83:16

132:10,14 133:7

315:9 334:4

complicated 58:3

190:16,18 207:2

252:9 360:5

complied 122:6

complies 382:6

384:18

comply 77:3

130:19 335:10,12

369:20 393:22

complying 68:3

107:16 112:19

component 16:19

30:7 33:2 34:21

35:12 38:16,18

39:8,21 40:3 41:4

42:9 43:10 44:14

44:19 46:11,16

49:10 50:22 56:21

57:1 58:13 61:12

63:3,6 71:1 86:14

90:11 150:21

183:2 203:4,18

211:4 242:20

262:13 284:18

291:4 295:3 301:5

313:10,14 315:22

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componentize

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components 15:14

15:17 17:2 29:22

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33:12 34:18 37:5

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286:6 287:22

290:17 294:19

295:4 314:16,21

338:3,7 341:21

358:12 361:22

378:6

component-based

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308:2

component-speci...

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composite 359:12

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composites 32:6

composition 233:7

compounds 218:21

compressor 32:13

50:9 101:4 169:21

218:9 222:22

243:19 250:17

253:7 357:21

358:4 389:6

compressors

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223:19,21

comprise 132:4

comprises 294:9

computation

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compute 254:6

computer 227:16

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164:9

conditioners 54:21

conditioning 2:10

9:4 24:21 47:4

58:5 69:22 221:9

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conditions 204:21

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219:11,14,17,18

230:1

conduct 35:3 67:18

86:21 326:7

conducted 63:14

63:22 123:19

124:8 326:2

conducting 38:1,5

38:10 160:19

conduction 37:22

conductive 367:21

conductivity

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confident 215:7

217:14

confidential 158:8

329:6 338:18

339:9,12 375:6

configurations

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155:17

confine 141:6

confused 112:7

134:2 199:19

confusion 131:21

187:6

Congress 245:8

connected 151:3

163:16 391:12

connector 148:7

conscious 304:12

consensus 223:8

384:3

consequence

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consequently

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conservation 1:3

4:6 36:8 37:2

121:11

consider 15:8

23:21 36:7 39:1

56:1 64:14 74:12

76:15 78:11 83:2

83:9 87:9 88:9

110:5,6 125:3

136:6 144:18

156:3,9 164:14

165:8 181:1

192:18 241:17

255:11 305:3

332:4 333:11

335:22 359:1

373:10 374:22

375:3 376:7 382:9

382:11

consideration

13:13,15 19:1

42:8 75:13 78:6

78:10 85:3 96:11

210:4,6 258:8

275:8 281:11

303:14

considerations

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considered 23:5

104:9,18 106:9

112:16,16 137:13

137:19,22 138:7

138:19,21 142:5

143:15 144:2

150:13 160:8

169:11 176:10

190:10 192:22

209:2,5,9,9,14

210:9 308:6

335:20 343:5

347:4 352:14

354:22 355:3,22

357:18,22 358:2,7

358:14 366:9

374:22 376:21

considering 42:7

102:9 178:10

308:17 360:3

considers 253:13

consistency 248:12

299:14

consistent 249:2

260:7

consistently 18:13

consists 101:3

constant 309:16

constrained 159:7

constraints 198:20

325:13

construct 98:7,9

285:20

constructed 39:10

286:10

construction 203:7

294:18 355:9

consult 227:17

consultants 2:11

31:18 32:5 85:13

386:14

Consulting 1:22

2:5,5,8,13 8:6,8

8:10 9:12,14

consume 34:19

82:7

consumed 316:17

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consumer 228:16

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360:9

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344:20

consumer's 261:6

consumer-based

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consuming 316:15

consumption 25:5

29:1 39:14 95:13

102:14 109:16

136:3 144:11

167:19 168:16,21

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211:6 234:14

254:3 287:2

307:17,22 365:4

contact 5:6 392:10

392:16

contacted 386:14

contained 104:2

contend 202:7

content 11:1,4 13:7

35:21 155:3

CONTENTS 3:1

context 55:7 74:20

177:3

continue 131:9

240:11 335:22

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continues 289:3

continuing 10:12

344:11

contract 251:7

contractor 5:5 32:3

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205:8 211:20

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289:19 318:13

380:9,19 385:3

391:11

cooler’s 38:8

cooling 191:12

COP 61:17

copper 201:13,15

202:9

core 123:1 124:21

125:4 126:21

128:10 363:9,14

366:16 371:3

379:19 380:7

corner 25:2 277:1

corporate 240:15

Corporation 2:7,9

2:16,17 6:17 8:21

9:6

correct 22:1 129:9

132:16 146:19,20

147:19 172:5,8

206:16,17 207:13

209:1 258:10

264:10,13 280:20

295:7 299:6 317:4

317:7 342:18

368:7,10 378:11

381:2 383:21

correctly 248:15

306:4 369:11

correlation 351:6

corresponded

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corresponding

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corresponds

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cost 15:10,19 16:9

19:7 20:11,16,19

20:20 23:5,19,22

25:8,18 26:9

29:13 35:1,10

53:9 81:22 118:2

118:12,14,15,22

118:22 119:1,3

132:14 136:11,14

138:9 154:22

158:3,16,19

160:20 161:13

163:2 164:5

165:21 166:2,18

166:19 167:20

168:9,19 169:5

170:6 183:2,22

184:7,18 185:18

185:21 186:3,6

187:13 188:1,4,6

188:7 189:14,15

191:3,9,10 192:18

192:19 196:10

198:19 199:11

200:15 202:8

228:3,6,9,10,20

229:1,2,8,12,16

229:21 230:1,16

232:6,7,12,22

233:5,6,8 234:19

247:6 251:1

252:17,22 253:6

253:22 255:22

256:6,21 260:18

260:19 261:7

262:5,16 263:2

273:15,21 275:15

280:3,13 281:2,22

282:14,20 283:2,7

283:8 284:20

285:5,9,19 298:3

300:5 302:12

303:12 304:9

306:19 308:7,9

309:21 312:5,6,10

312:14 318:17

320:14 327:8

328:7 345:9,13,22

346:13 348:2,7,13

349:6,10 387:13

388:5

costing 145:13

costs 3:9 10:13

20:12 21:7 76:2

81:19 82:5,14,15

138:2 158:4,14

160:10,12 162:9

166:16 167:1,5,8

169:14 172:2,5

182:21 183:8

184:3 186:2,8,14

187:13 190:19,20

190:21,22,22

191:5,7,11 193:9

193:14 198:18

199:10,13 200:20

227:1 229:4,5,5

229:11,18 232:9

232:13,16 234:3,4

234:5,8,11,17,18

234:21 249:11

250:4,6,15 252:2

255:1 276:13

281:12,18 282:22

283:1 307:18

308:8 313:21

317:21 318:18

320:18 327:10,15

332:22 333:4

340:8,18,21,22

344:19

cost-effective

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318:21 366:13

387:11

cost-effectiveness

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cost-efficiency

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Coughlin 1:20 3:8

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175:8,9,10 179:12

180:2,18 181:4

182:4,8 184:17

186:1 188:14

189:17 190:9

193:8,13,19 194:7

194:10 195:12

196:1 197:16,20

198:6,10 200:7,10

200:14 203:1

206:8,17,22 207:3

207:11,14 208:2,6

208:9,12 209:1,4

209:11 210:2,5,15

212:6,18 213:1,13

213:16 214:3,6,19

215:21 220:14

225:13 226:3,9

228:2 237:4 239:6

242:8,18 243:8

248:7 249:11

250:14 252:3

257:19 258:11,19

259:13 260:3,16

261:9,11 262:6

263:6 264:10,13

265:9,13,19

266:17,20 267:4

267:22 268:22

270:9,15 271:16
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Council 2:15 7:4

87:8

Counsel 7:15,17

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Coverage 38:16

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310:20 326:4

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covering 112:17

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195:1

CO2 24:17 129:11

164:1 275:2 348:4

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Craig 1:21,21,22

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50:21,21 76:18,18

77:10 78:13,19

79:20,20 80:9,13

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92:6,15 94:1,4,6

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119:5 129:7

137:11,11 143:5,5

144:15 145:16

146:17 161:11,11

161:16,21 171:22

171:22 172:7,11

172:18 181:6,6,22

205:22,22 206:10

206:18 207:1,8,13

207:22 208:4,8

209:8,18 210:3,13

212:3,8 215:1

225:20 226:5

257:3,3 258:7,12

264:7,7,11,14

265:12,15 266:4

267:5,8,10,14,19

268:6,13 269:8

274:22 281:4

291:22 292:4

293:4,13 295:8,8

295:13,16 296:2,6

296:8,13,16

302:20 303:15,18

305:13,14 306:12

306:21 310:2,10

310:14 311:2,15

319:13,20 320:1,3

320:6 333:16

336:12,21 343:10

370:15 375:17

376:11 383:9

crazy 227:5

CRE 151:15 164:17

384:19

create 158:12

182:13 326:9

376:8 384:5

created 55:17

97:12 167:16

169:22 211:8

creates 241:14

creating 351:11

credit 144:5,6

149:19 259:4,9

353:8,12

credits 353:3,4

355:2

criteria 150:13

278:7,9 357:15,18

359:8,19,20 381:2

383:15

criterion 357:19

cross 165:12

cubic 305:19

cue 24:7 150:5

297:5

cumulative 315:15

cup 189:21 190:2

cure 197:4

curious 108:8

124:4 342:12

365:18 373:22

current 36:11 37:1

37:3,12,17 38:13

40:8 62:6 82:1

110:9 130:8

132:15 136:18

147:17 165:5

216:2 231:21

300:16 315:11

321:13 342:19

358:18 383:3

384:4

currently 68:20

70:8,14,20 84:16

249:2,22 299:7

348:8 356:6

381:20 382:16

curtain 20:15,18

curve 167:18 168:2

169:12,22 373:15

373:19

curves 59:4 118:13

118:21,22 167:16

168:9

cushion 226:20

customary 141:4

customer 44:4 53:8

204:9 228:10

233:7,9 235:10

264:16 269:9

273:6 281:21

282:1 323:4

379:15 380:20

customers 27:11,14

44:7 48:22 85:11

85:18 89:5 114:15

238:12 239:12

244:7 271:1

272:15 274:14

280:15 298:5

301:12,13,15

customization

327:19

cut 146:2,2

cuts 171:2

cutting 129:12

cut-off 362:21

cut-offs 305:11

cycle 45:14 204:17

205:8 211:20

223:10 224:2,16

228:10,20 262:5

316:13 347:17

386:19

cycled 223:10

cycles 207:18 227:3

247:14 386:21

cycling 223:19,21

Cymbalsky 1:15

4:13,14,15 7:18

7:18 79:8,9 80:11

132:21,22 157:10

157:15 164:16

165:4,15

C518 89:16

C518-04 37:19

D

daily 63:18 97:14

168:16 205:7

361:17 393:5

damage 348:9

384:12

damages 348:3,6

Danfoss 2:20 7:6

31:16 57:6 72:16

138:6

dark 323:12

dash 276:22

data 12:3 22:10

39:19 49:8 90:12

90:18,20 91:1,4

91:21 92:2,7,13

93:1 94:22 123:10

134:1,4,12 139:18

145:12,20 146:10

148:22 155:22

156:21 157:2,3,7

157:14,15 158:1

158:10,11 159:9

159:10 183:8,13

184:21 212:1

234:18 235:6,8

248:10 249:3

286:22 287:8

299:7,9 309:19

310:7 326:11,14

331:11 356:4

365:3 366:11

377:15

database 234:22

date 67:17 68:8,9

68:14,14,21,22

69:6,16 71:7

72:18,19 73:7,20
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David 2:1 7:10 85:4

85:5 124:16,17

195:3,5 237:20,21

269:14 301:9,10

303:20

day 10:22 28:22

44:7 49:3 115:4

171:12 211:20

214:14 218:4

219:8 269:17

271:1,2 304:15

327:5 393:11

394:9

days 321:7

DC 194:10

DCs 194:4

DD 194:18

de 87:17

deadline 12:21

65:19,20

deal 34:7 54:15

79:7 82:4,5 145:3

145:4 178:20

195:8 196:9

225:10 231:1

241:11 248:17

337:15 366:15

dealer 181:2

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302:15

dealing 249:14

251:2

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77:19

Dean 2:13 7:8

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212:14

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372:5

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319:16

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247:20

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283:1 309:18,21

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100:21,22 101:9

101:16 103:20

140:11,13 151:1

169:17 194:11

223:15 256:11,18

362:15,18 381:14

384:7 388:20

389:1,21 390:17

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defer 88:17 134:6

163:1

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72:5 110:9 118:7

228:13 230:15

252:7

defined 45:1 93:14

194:5 231:16

289:13 319:2

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defining 125:9

257:20

definitely 71:2 85:2

134:8 373:10

definition 62:7

81:19 94:18

108:22 109:6,9,13

110:3 128:14

204:18 318:22

338:6 342:19

343:14 346:5

definitions 39:4

93:20,22 94:21

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defrost 140:14

170:15,21,22

171:8,9,20 218:11

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Degitz 1:22 3:5 8:5

8:5 90:6 91:14,22

93:4 94:20 96:14

98:2 100:14

102:16,19 103:6

106:13 109:3

112:9 113:11

114:3 125:19

126:11,15,19

127:1 128:7 144:1

145:6 146:12,15

146:21 152:3,11

153:9 154:3,17

165:19 166:5

degree 59:8 63:16

135:2,3 324:9

degrees 36:15,16

36:17 40:11,13,15

62:8 100:18 111:8

111:9

delay 68:22 69:3,17

delayed 69:7,10

deliver 15:10

delivered 316:21

delta 387:8

delve 88:13

demand 300:15

311:8,9 349:18

density 369:8

Department 1:1,14

1:15,15,16,16,17

4:5,17,20 5:2 7:17

8:12 9:8 11:7

12:9,15 13:4 14:8

23:19 36:4 42:21

62:20 66:2 72:5

90:17 92:21 93:19

95:4 107:14

112:13 145:10

270:6 271:19

272:7 283:15

331:20 336:1

392:16 394:18

395:2

Department's

271:17 374:3

depend 353:11

dependent 44:4

331:16 352:14

depending 106:7

139:1 162:8

262:14 363:14

depends 41:13

161:7 172:10

204:16

depletion 25:3

depreciation 245:3

337:5 355:10,19

356:7

derelict 194:8

describe 12:4

104:20 113:4

125:20 170:15

207:7 263:7

described 31:22

84:2 107:5 126:6

136:11

describes 232:18

description 130:22

171:16 206:7,19

252:4 374:4

descriptor 150:2

design 15:21 16:2,6

16:10,13,16 118:8

135:21 136:11,14

137:1,12 138:7

139:10 144:2

148:7 155:18

156:6 164:6 168:4

169:2 170:5

203:10 204:8

205:14 252:16

253:2 254:18

277:14 360:10

385:13 386:15

designed 36:19

93:9 106:4,5

110:11,16,19

207:10 352:9

designs 352:19

desirable 29:6

detail 74:11 136:12

143:2 178:18

182:12 186:13

189:18 203:5

209:12 228:20

230:12 231:1,16

234:16 255:5

260:21 261:18

290:10 314:7

319:18 350:7

357:3,7 374:16

detailed 13:10

35:21 179:1 203:8

242:10 283:10,14

288:2 315:18

386:13

details 13:2 127:3

167:6 230:2

311:14 375:8

determination

42:19 87:14 109:2

346:18

determine 53:1

228:12 309:8

determined 38:1,5

38:9 118:4 127:4

189:19

determining 214:5

develop 14:20

228:9 235:1

287:10 348:1

developed 118:13

118:21,21 138:11

177:8 178:10

205:3 277:13

development 67:21

223:7 320:10

develops 114:4

203:8

device 144:7

146:16,19

devices 65:4 108:7

111:19

diagram 200:17

dialing 219:9
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307:18 346:16

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27:16 28:18 39:6

41:17 48:11,15,17

49:19 54:20 62:10

64:14 83:20 84:3

86:12 94:16,18

96:22 97:2 100:8

106:1,3 109:16

119:7,13 120:2

122:13 125:16,21

128:9 131:4,15

132:1 137:7 139:3

139:11 148:1,4

165:11 167:2,2,3

168:1 169:22

177:5 178:11

182:10 187:14

196:11 212:4,13

213:11 214:5

217:1,22 229:14

230:9 246:8,9

250:15 270:5

282:6 287:3,21

289:16,21 290:19

291:6 293:21

295:11 303:10

307:15 310:8

313:11 321:12

345:1 357:18

360:12 361:2

362:1,2,11 363:13

363:13 371:12

373:14 388:3

differentiate

108:10 109:10

179:10

differentiated

109:8

differentiation

99:16 108:11

differently 101:14

127:21 332:13

difficult 35:9 45:16

52:17 68:2 97:20

149:18

difficulties 81:9

difficulty 107:15

112:18

dig 161:20 276:16

dilemma 242:12

dilute 190:13

dime 332:10

diminish 90:3

dinged 304:6

dioxide 347:5,6

direct 122:19

176:15 181:8,15

182:1 211:4

325:11

directed 36:6

direction 164:3

173:22 339:8

directly 10:6 41:18

351:2 358:19

Director 6:14,20

directory 48:1

disadvantage 52:1

358:3

disaggregated

178:6

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260:11 311:11

disappeared

240:10

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disappointed 142:3

disassembled

158:11

disassembly 159:1

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disconnect 214:20

discontinuities

222:16

discount 230:7,10

232:8 233:20

234:22 235:1

279:15 308:12

318:6,7 345:14

349:9

discounted 279:11

300:7 349:8

discounts 229:10

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391:3

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29:21

discuss 11:22 31:9

168:8 196:2 214:8

discussed 87:14

127:2 136:1 143:6

163:6,20 233:10

234:15 255:5

283:13 298:2

341:17 361:10

371:22 372:1

discussing 235:12

245:17 319:5

325:1 374:15

discussion 12:8

17:22 26:10 44:18

52:8 61:2 62:14

63:4 64:4 72:16

166:15 236:7,9

274:17 324:17

325:10 337:21

378:19 386:13

disintegrate 239:15

disjointed 305:7

display 15:22 16:1

16:13,15 28:3

38:19 93:8,9,12

93:15 106:17

107:3,22 113:5,6

113:18 120:19

122:4,19 134:18

137:4,4 151:12

152:13,14 168:14

169:15 178:13

194:18 231:11,13

265:4 277:15

289:20 294:21

296:4,5,11 314:17

327:18 330:3

358:13,16,21

364:15,19 386:18

387:1,4,5,11

disproportionate

329:22 333:3

disproportionately

18:15

disrupting 55:1

disservice 74:4

distinction 179:7

distribute 301:20

distributed 314:18

distributes 45:6

distributing 192:3

distribution 167:22

172:16 176:5,9,11

176:13 177:6,20

178:1 182:11,22

183:9 184:3 196:5

198:1,2 199:20

200:22 216:10

230:8,9 233:19

235:21 290:22

308:17

distributions

260:22 290:5

291:2 314:6 315:2

345:14

distributor 178:2

179:8,13,20

180:13,22 181:10

183:4,5 184:14

201:11,22 202:10

202:11

distributors 2:12

177:1 178:21

192:15 193:11

202:17 302:15

distributor's

190:21 191:5

District 34:6

diverges 196:20

divided 282:15

docket 74:21 75:5

document 15:5

18:14 19:7 20:4

21:9,17 26:12

65:14 77:13

160:16 255:16

261:1

documentation

31:5 79:3 376:22

documented 77:13

documents 80:14

326:10

DOE 4:15,19 5:7

7:15,19 14:19

15:6,8,20 17:12

17:20 18:6,14

23:4,21 26:3 28:1

31:6,17 32:4,18

32:20 33:14 34:22

36:9 37:14 38:13

38:17 40:2,22

46:19 47:16 55:15

56:18 59:14 64:2

64:13 66:17 73:8

79:4,9 81:22 86:1

87:12 88:9 90:11

91:5 93:5,7,16

96:2 98:3 100:15

101:7,10 102:7

103:4 104:9

106:14,18,22

107:7,10 109:9,17

109:18,21 112:10

112:17,21 114:3

117:17,19 121:18

123:8 133:1 136:8

141:22 142:3

144:18 145:1

149:12,16,19

156:9 164:12,18

176:10 182:17

183:8 186:9,15

193:4 196:3,7

201:3 202:10

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207:6 210:17

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250:5 252:19

253:17,20 258:21

263:6,10 275:2

281:10 286:12,22

289:17 290:5,14

290:17 291:4

298:1,5,13 299:7

299:13 304:18

309:4 315:1,7

316:13 317:18,22

322:11,18 326:2

328:9,13,18,21

329:3,6,16 330:5

331:1 333:5,11

334:3 337:14

338:16 339:3

342:14 343:15

345:4,12 346:21

347:3,10 348:20

350:2 352:16

353:22 354:1

363:12 374:20

375:3,18 381:6,10

384:8 392:13

DOE's 15:17 17:17

107:16 110:22

112:8 122:20

329:15 337:16

343:3

doing 18:8 34:6

48:19,21 49:4

52:2 74:3 133:6

144:21 153:18

187:7 216:19

227:14 238:5

271:6 274:4 275:1

275:19 334:8,18

370:9 375:10

383:14 393:16

dollar 133:13

160:12 279:20

280:4,13 310:13

331:6 332:9 337:3

dollars 162:15

193:5,7 197:11

198:9 264:22

265:1 269:22

282:9 351:9

Donuts 116:3,8

door 16:13,15 28:7

37:7 49:22 59:11

63:20 64:1,16,17

65:2 87:10 93:11

93:12,13,14,16

94:10,11,14,16,19

94:22 95:5,6,22

95:22 96:5,8,17

97:1,5,5,10,13,14

119:15 122:20,20

123:2 131:14,15

135:16 143:17

146:3 168:14

169:15 178:6

194:18,19,19

208:19 211:5,6,12

211:13 239:19

240:17 244:8,10

254:20 265:5,11

291:20 296:7

297:13,15 314:19

327:18 328:1

329:2 358:21

361:21,22 364:16

379:8,14,16 380:3

380:11 386:17,20

doors 15:22 16:1

16:20 28:3 38:4

38:19,19 63:18

64:13,15 70:21

93:7,8 94:10,12

94:13 95:1,18,19

96:3 119:12,14

120:19,21 122:5

122:19 131:10

134:18,19 135:14

135:17 137:4

148:3 151:12,17

152:14 153:11,12

176:13,19 177:22

211:12 231:11,13

236:5 239:1,2

240:2,7 244:4

246:14 254:4,7

263:20 276:3

277:15 291:1

294:21 295:22

296:1,4,5,10,11

296:11,12,12

314:17 322:17

325:6 328:15

329:11,14 330:4,4

334:15 357:11

358:13,13,17,17

361:16 364:14,14

364:14,15,15,20

374:5 379:7

386:18,22 387:2,4

387:5,12

double 154:14

251:9

Doug 1:11,13,17

3:2 4:14 7:16

68:18 69:14 70:7

76:4 77:7 78:1

83:12 95:8 104:13

104:14 110:2

127:11 133:21

335:3 371:19

378:22,22 381:19

dovetail 41:5

downsize 263:13

266:2 316:1

downsized 263:22

downsizing 262:19

268:17

downward 47:8

dozens 29:9

drag 73:5

dramatic 23:13

draw 72:18 96:6

135:18 380:7

drawn 218:4

drift 55:8

drive 303:11

driven 294:16

297:1 299:1

drivers 329:20

driving 74:22

341:1 344:9

dropped 201:18

dropping 224:1

dry 54:7 59:9

due 4:19 51:1

115:10 121:18

237:18 327:19

391:20 392:3

Dunkin 116:2,8

duration 184:12

duty 204:17 207:17

211:19 223:10

D.C 1:11 4:10 9:18

E

eager 44:6 227:22

earlier 16:22 26:6

28:4 40:14 53:12

67:13 122:9

125:22 126:6

136:2 157:22

159:22 209:10

276:2 314:7 319:5

341:17 349:1

357:21 361:10

early 206:20 353:1

earn 189:4 190:7

193:2

ease 150:1

easier 47:19 393:2

easiest 168:12

East 141:10

eat 116:2

ebm 323:22

ebm-papst 2:2

echo 47:5

ECM 121:13,15

148:15

economic 26:13

220:12,21 236:10

236:13,16 244:2

244:19 287:7

307:12 351:5

economics 264:2

344:22

economists 321:18

economy 7:4

351:10

ecosystem 348:11

edge 363:9,14

366:16,22 367:3

367:22 368:1,5,12

369:11 371:5,8,10

edging 97:3,4

Edison 28:15

Edwards 13:10

EER 390:4 391:10

391:13,14

EERs 389:17

391:18

effect 84:18 119:10

163:10 165:10

202:6 218:20

235:13 311:3

321:5,19 322:10

322:12 324:2,3,6

325:14 331:4

335:1 344:9 363:2

effective 15:10,19

16:9 26:9 68:21

69:3,6 318:18

effectiveness

252:22 271:20

387:14

effects 156:3,5,9,11

255:12 348:9

efficacy 169:6

efficiencies 56:13

172:16 238:16

254:2 256:3

308:18

efficiency 2:18 7:2

11:21 15:7 17:15

19:11 25:8,22

29:13 31:20 33:3

33:7,11 46:4,20

55:17 57:21 61:1

105:11 114:6

118:10,15,22

121:9 136:3,7,10
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211:11 218:19

231:5 250:1,2,4

250:16 252:14,18

253:6,22 254:7,10

255:8,10 262:12

262:14 263:12

268:19 303:6

314:6,13,14

315:10 353:5

357:19 358:15

359:14 361:13

365:4 387:7

390:18

efficient 2:15 7:4

99:21 101:20

118:2 129:14

140:2 170:4

231:10 238:8

247:13 259:8

263:21 322:8

354:7

effort 14:18 54:8

87:4 375:17 377:3

egg 221:18

eight 267:6,6,21

268:4,7,8,8 274:1

274:10 278:21

364:10 368:11

369:8

EISA 37:1 314:10

370:1

either 20:22 32:14

48:14 86:7 114:11

123:14 151:19

176:22 203:6

289:19 300:5

303:9 317:21

339:3 368:13

eke 219:14

elaborate 389:9

elasticity 300:15,18

340:22

electrical 48:12

63:19 96:5 97:13

201:12 211:4

361:21

electricity 34:10

230:2 233:22

235:5,11,17

316:15,17 320:14

320:20 321:14

345:8,15 346:2,4

346:8 349:18,21

350:15 351:13,15

379:22

Electronic 33:4

electronically 37:9

elements 25:10

113:8 382:3

elevating 214:17

eliminate 111:1

253:8 379:12

eliminated 140:11

eliminates 371:4

eliminating 53:20

Ellis 1:21 5:21 18:3

18:4 21:1,21

50:20,21 76:17,18

79:19,20 81:18

91:9 92:5 93:22

118:18,19 129:6

133:1 137:10,11

143:4,5 146:17

161:10,11 171:21

171:22 205:21,22

209:7 212:2

214:22 225:18

227:14 257:2,3

261:3 264:7

266:11 267:8

269:16 274:21

276:1 281:3 292:5

293:3 295:8

302:19 305:13

310:1 311:14

319:12 333:15

335:4 336:10

343:9 370:14

375:12,16 383:8

ELs 357:10,13

else's 131:21

EL1 314:18

EL2 314:18

email 13:8 392:19

392:21,22 393:4

394:20

Emily 24:8

emission 349:5

emissions 25:6,9

346:22 347:4,13

347:16,22 348:16

348:21 349:13

emotional 375:21

emphasize 46:18

134:13

employ 393:19

employed 189:3,4

189:13

employee 5:4 22:8

employees 22:7

23:11 333:12,13

employment

325:11 350:20,21

351:2,17 352:3,6

enable 115:2

enables 266:2

enacted 230:22

321:1

enclosed 36:13

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encourage 14:5

15:20 394:7,17

encourages 29:19

encouraging 91:7

ended 260:13

endorsement

110:22

ends 115:17 228:16

317:9

energy 1:1,3,14,15

1:15,16,16,17

2:11,15,18 3:7 4:6

7:2,4,17 8:12,19

9:8 10:11 11:7,20

12:9,15 14:22

15:10 20:18 25:5

25:17,18,21,21

29:1,13 34:7,19

36:4,8 37:2,22

38:4,8 42:19

43:17 49:2 51:6

54:22 61:1,10

62:11 63:5,9,11

63:19,20,21 72:10

82:8 87:13 95:12

95:22 96:17 97:3

97:14 99:21

102:14 109:16,17

115:5,6 118:2,10

118:11,21 121:10

123:20,22 128:12

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107:10 108:6,9

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119:8,21 121:9

127:6,17,20 128:2

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165:11 167:22

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231:21 237:12

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308:18 341:10

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materials 126:8

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math 133:12

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mathematical

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matrix 359:18

matter 8:13 51:18

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277:6 301:13

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matters 141:16

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46:9 66:17,17

111:15 112:6

216:6,6 277:11,11

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max 16:4,14 169:10

246:13 255:3

277:19 278:9

318:17 359:6

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359:4,5 360:2

maximum 40:13

63:13,18 236:1

257:22 265:3

318:20 319:1,4

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359:7 361:14,16

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340:13,17 341:9

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346:15 361:5

364:10 367:22

368:16 373:22

380:1 384:13

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390:5 391:15

realm 240:2

reams 22:4,5 392:9

reaping 370:12

reason 278:7

298:14 319:6

348:17 363:11

366:11 372:8

reasonable 202:13

204:13 245:22

292:19

reasonableness

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reasonably 67:3

247:13

reasoning 213:7

reasons 379:11

rebate 355:3

rebates 353:4

Rebecca 2:5 3:6,14

8:7 103:6 109:3

112:12 116:16,22

134:6 145:21

150:5 155:1

220:16 284:4

356:18,19 367:14

374:5

rebound 202:6

321:19 322:10,12

323:19 324:2,3,6

rebuild 243:2

recalculate 345:15

recall 59:21 341:17

370:3

recap 374:14

recapping 361:8

receivables 189:9

receive 248:7

received 9:19 177:9

205:4 212:19

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receiving 11:11

recharacterize

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reciprocating

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recognize 54:19

127:3

recognizes 363:12

recommend 102:17

153:13 331:20

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recommendation

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record 13:17 54:3

80:21 116:11

174:16 266:11

277:6 335:17

336:16 339:4,5

395:5

recover 184:20

191:6 232:16

recovering 185:2

262:9

recycling 49:6

red 26:4 28:4

359:22

redefining 72:20

redesigning 75:21

redo 367:3

reduce 25:9 118:9

150:14 391:2

reduced 29:1,17

171:10 232:15

327:12,12 349:22

350:1 351:14

reduces 385:5

reduction 262:20

349:18,20

reductions 169:13

203:16 347:13,16

347:22 350:8,9,10

350:12,16

reevaluate 15:21

refer 160:16 176:4

194:12,14,20

321:18

reference 74:18

121:17

referred 252:14

referring 68:8

389:11

refers 34:5 176:7

265:14 286:1

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refine 250:5 326:4

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refining 15:3

reflect 54:4 216:13

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reflected 222:14

reflecting 222:19

reflects 55:14

refrigerant 163:3

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refrigerant-based

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Refrigerating

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30:11 32:11 38:9

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44:18 46:14,15,21

48:9 49:22 51:8

56:2,22 58:4,13

63:8,12,21 66:7

70:13,22 72:21

84:2 88:6 97:11

100:14 102:2

103:22 105:4

106:18 107:12,13

108:1 112:18

119:15 120:3

121:12 122:7

124:3,9 134:19

142:8 149:14

150:19 163:2

164:7 169:16,19

171:19 176:12

177:12 179:11

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341:16 342:7

357:10,17 358:6

359:9,19 361:4,11

361:18,20 362:9

362:11 365:7

380:20 381:22

383:5,7,14,16

Regal 148:11

Regal-Beloit 2:7

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regarding 16:18

17:1,17 64:12

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regardless 132:12

regards 58:12 77:8

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register 70:6

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regrets 25:20

regular 229:6

regulate 32:21

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regulating 149:6

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regulation 18:16

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removed 63:10

renewable 320:13

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representing 1:23

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represents 53:13

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request 91:5

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requesting 90:17

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requests 93:19

require 37:4 45:2

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84:3 165:6 174:7

187:14,16,17

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required 31:4

54:12 78:4 82:5,6

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requirement 82:1

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requirements 24:1

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requires 40:12

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reread 218:19

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research 34:7

36:21 73:1 153:19

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resistances 148:5

resolution 5:1

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resources 329:5

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respectively 36:14

respond 161:7

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responsibility

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responsible 39:8

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result 25:13,18

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104:11 124:12,12

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253:20 255:14,18

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resume 115:13

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retail 355:20

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review 9:19,21

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rooms 284:13,13

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round 10:10,15

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routine 196:3

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RSMeans 234:17

rubric 55:6

rule 29:6 58:16

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rulemaking 12:5

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36:5 42:18 55:16

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rule’s 68:8

ruling 377:22

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run 68:15 86:22

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217:11 218:5,9

229:4 371:2

running 168:17

218:7 219:8,10

runtime 273:15

Russell 226:17

227:17

R-value 34:20,22

35:12,15 37:18

82:8,10 96:4,9

99:3 100:8 106:20

130:8 368:14,20

369:6,7,15,17

370:2 371:9 372:4

R-values 82:9

R-22 54:7

R-25 35:14 37:8

369:20

R-32 35:14 37:8

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S

Sachs 2:15 7:3,3

33:20,21,21 42:12

42:13,13 54:2,2

87:1,2,2 111:16

141:3,3,15,15

149:3,3,10 173:14

179:6,6,22 180:6

193:22 194:8,22

218:3 220:2 222:6

Sacramental 34:5

safe 174:10 394:9

safety 114:16

205:10 226:16

379:11

sake 327:6

sales 6:4 21:10

176:15,16 178:16

187:15,15 188:20

191:11 227:19

235:2 289:10

291:5 327:12

341:1

sample 230:8

256:13 282:19

371:2

Sanitation 40:12

satellite 24:16

satisfied 278:8

satisfy 278:6

saturation 287:4

saturations 299:10

save 25:21 49:5

115:4 145:1 149:5

149:12,20 215:3,9

219:11 240:19

264:16,20 265:4

266:5 269:3,4,10

274:1

saved 267:11

saver 20:18

saves 206:15

saving 22:5 43:17

129:11,17 145:14

218:22 219:9

265:15 275:2

279:10 282:1

savings 15:1,11

16:17 17:13 25:12

27:20 28:20,21

29:4 46:19,22

55:1 61:10 107:8

113:14 133:13,13

133:14 175:16

218:17 219:13,20

228:10,12,14

229:19 230:16

232:7 254:14

256:1 258:3 259:5

260:20 263:1,2

264:8 265:20

268:16,21 272:17

279:22 300:5,6

307:11 315:4,22

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317:1,11,22 318:1

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321:22 322:3

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350:17 351:9

352:11 354:4,15

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201:21 239:20

349:1 361:2

saying 55:21 56:20

71:20 77:22 78:2

79:22,22 80:16

84:12 97:19 99:14

125:2,8 173:14

185:18,21 204:11

206:11,13 209:18

213:18 215:19

225:4 250:12

264:19 270:21

272:1 292:14

333:19 334:7

366:6 369:14

378:9 381:12

382:21 386:21

390:12

says 19:7 21:1 40:9

52:20 80:2 89:2

122:22 243:4

248:18 366:20

SBA 79:12,15 80:2

80:11,16 330:6

scale 183:10 250:18

309:15 347:15

scaled 309:17
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365:9,12 371:14

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seeing 185:4

186:22 203:14

238:7 247:20

269:7 305:1,12

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seeking 374:18

seeks 40:2 64:2

seen 54:5,17 141:19

202:15,19 216:20

239:5 297:16

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SEER 54:10 132:5

sees 66:2

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segmentation

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segmented 246:7

246:12

segments 75:19

178:14

seldom 239:5

select 101:21

selected 254:5

319:6 374:20

selecting 19:11

333:7 383:11

selection 254:9,10

selections 254:21

self 104:1 149:6

self-contained

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self-regulates

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self-regulating

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sell 48:9,10 51:7,19

52:16 53:16 85:9

105:4 111:7

120:21 147:8

181:3 227:7 240:5

240:7 244:2,3,16

274:5,5,6 281:6

380:3 384:17

selling 20:21 27:10

34:9 43:15 44:2

51:16 166:1,17

181:8 183:4

201:11 240:6

267:3 300:20

344:4 380:19

381:12,14,17

385:2

semi 120:4

semi-hermetic

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send 104:20 131:4

146:10 225:21

339:18 393:4

394:21

sense 16:20 26:7

32:2 45:5 56:10

56:21 57:1 61:11

109:18 139:4,5

187:8 188:13

189:21 196:16

206:7,16 215:20

222:11 248:16

265:2,3,8 271:10

280:13 289:15

309:5 336:21

352:20 357:9

368:18

sensing 28:6,13

387:14

sensitivity 341:4

sensitized 55:4

sensors 16:3,8

277:17 278:12

387:22

sent 75:3 92:20

376:22

Senter 2:16 64:9,9

64:12 89:15 108:4

108:18 122:18

135:13,13 147:14

147:14 297:10,10

297:12,20 365:6,6

365:9,15,18

366:14 367:12

373:1,11 379:2,18

separate 43:1 67:6

67:7 70:3 73:1

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99:6 100:15,20

101:10 104:4

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111:12 203:20

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328:1 384:21,21

separated 318:4

separately 16:16

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380:12

separating 28:11

separation 99:6

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sequestration

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serious 239:4 344:8

seriously 78:3,11

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serve 101:5

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service 114:13

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services 6:10 235:2

serving 101:1

set 38:10,17,21

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167:14 177:19,20

212:13 217:5

236:3 252:15

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258:21 349:15

377:15 381:20

sets 59:22 123:10

176:11

setting 16:19 36:8

39:1,2 40:3 75:1

148:1 238:2

settled 376:3,4

settlement 336:13

336:20

seven 28:22 36:6,8

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severely 331:22

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75:4 76:5 85:2

96:11 99:18 102:3

157:12 162:18

165:12 173:17

174:12,13

we're 4:11 10:4

11:11 18:7 20:3

21:2,5 22:4,5,5,7

22:10 27:5 28:1

30:20 35:11 36:1

37:21 39:1 41:6

42:8,10 48:20

51:11,19 52:1,2

55:10 59:13 60:15

62:7,15,16 64:5

65:15 66:3 67:2

74:3 75:7 77:2,3

78:13,17 79:22

80:1,3,16,18

83:13,21 84:16,18

88:13 90:14 91:13

94:10 95:21 97:1

100:12,20 110:12

115:10,18,20

116:15 119:2

120:9 125:20

126:3 127:1

129:11,11,16

133:16 134:7

135:19 136:13

141:16 144:16

152:9,17 153:18

155:10 157:11

160:19 161:6

162:2 165:5

166:12 172:2

174:11 215:6

we've 14:1 24:17

25:2 28:4 30:4

33:9 48:18,19

54:4,17 56:19

59:10,12 61:16

65:17 73:5,17

75:7 87:6 88:3

112:14,16 117:14

117:18 119:9,17

131:1 155:4,5

156:8 157:21

174:11

wheel 87:5

wholesale 52:15

wholesaler 32:10

51:16 52:18 53:1

60:4 179:8,13,15

179:17 180:12

181:14

wholesalers 52:4

176:17 177:14

wholesaler's

190:22

wholesaling 179:18

WICF 295:2

wide 52:16 93:13

162:11,12,13

291:17 292:11

304:1 366:19

368:11 373:21

wider 101:13

292:17

width 291:18

366:21

widths 292:18

wiggles 294:15

wild 163:1 164:4

Wilkins 2:20 7:5,5

31:15,16 43:8

44:17 47:6 57:5,5

59:18,18 66:5

72:15,15 73:12

74:1 88:2 103:1

103:14 114:20

138:5,6,15 139:5

139:14 162:21

165:1,13 184:5,19

185:3,15 188:19

190:4,12 191:21

192:9,20 193:11

193:17,20 201:6

208:16 209:2,6

219:4 220:6

221:17 239:11

241:8 242:11

243:3 263:17

265:17,20 266:7

300:11,21 341:14

344:7 377:20

willing 147:5

338:20 382:11

willingly 313:17

window 87:11

107:5 119:14

120:20,22 137:4

153:2,11,19 164:9

379:10,17,18

windows 113:19

154:9,12 380:2,9

380:11

winterization

185:19

wire 143:8,13

144:6,9,11 146:1

146:18 148:4

wires 149:6

wish 11:12,13

13:19 14:5,11

27:6 339:8 373:14

394:9

wishes 9:22 12:16

14:14 375:13

379:20

wonder 66:6 257:7

303:13

wondering 23:4

123:19 151:18

153:4 160:4

180:22 184:10

243:10 377:7

379:14

wood 21:18 124:21

125:15 126:3,5

128:18,20 130:9

131:12,12,14

172:4 364:1,3

366:19 368:13

369:7

words 51:18 100:2

217:20 257:11

274:9

work 15:3 17:18

31:17 42:10 49:12

49:17,18 51:8

57:13 58:3 59:19

66:22 73:9 115:21

156:13 175:10

202:3 227:3,4

238:6 322:5

372:19 375:18

386:15 394:15

workable 14:20

17:9 47:1

worked 375:19

377:1

working 42:16

78:20 84:16 197:6

218:15 221:22

works 146:2 173:3

339:16 384:19

world 22:13,16

48:22 195:7

216:22

worried 90:1

worse 185:10 344:5

390:10
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Page 444

worst 99:21 223:14

worth 282:10

wouldn't 91:17

92:9 113:20

144:18 156:10

244:14 247:19

259:9 276:4

293:17 299:15

Wow 303:17

write 11:17 196:19

writing 12:10

106:11 143:2

167:12 367:11

384:12

written 13:3 20:14

62:18,19 65:11

69:15 74:9 81:7

83:6 90:22 93:1

119:19 120:14

125:7 143:11,12

144:3,13 155:8

311:13 339:4

363:2 382:7 383:3

386:3 389:10

394:18

wrong 19:12 59:11

129:19 154:15

162:21 170:21

206:21 213:19

248:14 274:4

293:2

wrote 334:16

WUFI 104:12

X

X 25:7 75:17 86:10

208:17

XYZ 105:20

Y

Y 168:19

yards 173:21

year 4:22 26:18

29:4 63:12 146:4

186:21 201:14

202:5 224:21

227:18 240:6

241:13 243:5

244:16 249:19

251:20 257:15

286:2,14 288:8

295:3,4 309:21

313:12,13 321:9

321:10 334:3

351:20 377:5

392:2

years 27:4,15 48:20

54:4 165:9 187:7

190:5 201:12

222:2 227:14,15

232:10,15,15

234:7 235:14

236:20,21 237:18

237:18 238:14,18

239:5,13,17

240:15,17 241:12

241:20,20 242:1,7

242:16 244:10,18

246:13,15,19

248:20 249:8

251:16 256:16

257:8,13,14 265:6

265:7 267:11

269:11 273:5

274:2,11 279:16

279:19 280:1

294:16 298:12,19

301:18 312:2,3

313:13,14 316:5

332:11 348:1

350:13 379:4

386:21,22 391:19

year-old 241:22

yesterday 162:5

y'all 190:16

Z

zero 168:22

$

$1,000 240:19

$1.25 281:2,5,20

$10 188:17,18

$100 20:15 146:3

162:7,14 188:16

192:3 232:13

$117 348:15

$12.90 348:15

$120 192:4

$150 29:4 249:19

$153 165:22

$200 240:19 268:13

269:10

$200,000 146:5

$228 265:6

$3,000 303:16

304:7 306:2

$300,000 334:8,16

335:6

$40 280:3

$50 232:14 251:3

$500 251:15 269:11

$60 162:7

$600 269:11

$700 303:15 304:7

306:2

$72 264:11

$75 251:3

$8 264:12,16,20

265:15 266:6

279:10

$8,000 335:11

336:13

$80 267:11

0

089 1:10

1

1 37:3,10 40:2

174:13 188:17

326:8 327:7

1.09 197:2

1.15 135:18

1.16 197:2

1.19 187:19 188:18

1.2 61:17

1.5 162:11

1.51 185:16 188:2

188:16 192:6,7

1.89 195:18

1:04 174:17 175:2

10 37:13 38:2,6,15

60:16 64:2 240:17

248:20 268:8

346:8

10D 139:13

10D.2.6 277:14

10(D) 255:6 360:18

10,000 282:19

10.75 388:19

10:30 10:10

10:45 10:10

10:50 115:12

10:53 116:11

100 21:12 143:10

145:22 173:21

240:7 244:16

256:12 272:20

283:4 314:20

354:10 369:18

1000 1:10

104 48:11

11 64:22 115:14

116:5 135:15

178:2 373:21

11.5 329:1

11:06 116:12

117 3:6

12 12:12,22 199:3,5

236:21 237:17

241:20,21 242:16

265:6 267:11

268:9 269:10

279:16 290:2

302:12 306:19,21

359:10 368:15

369:8 386:22

12-year 243:6

12.8 213:15

12:01 174:16

12:30 115:21

1200 30:13 389:17

1250 38:11 149:13

149:21,21 170:2

212:13 214:1

218:15 220:19

223:6,11,20 224:6

224:8,11,13,17,21

384:5

13 54:11 132:5

219:8 369:9

13.3 211:20 212:10

218:4

1363 35:3 65:3

67:18 89:3

14 65:8 239:5

279:19 368:15

140 111:8

15 21:20 60:14 99:1

129:14 201:12

211:21 212:10

219:8 236:20

237:18 240:14,17

241:20 248:20

356:8

15-year 355:10,18

16 212:6 213:13

268:10

16-hour 205:8

17 27:5 148:5

175 3:7

179(K) 356:14,15

18 162:12 205:9

212:6

18,000 169:20

18.8 328:19

19 185:20

190,000 102:10

191 21:17

2

2 21:10 139:7

215:15 326:12

327:10 376:14

2,000 146:4 227:19

240:5

2.1 292:7

2.3 328:19

2:35 277:6

2:45 10:21 277:4

2:46 277:4,7

20 19:16 21:1 27:8

120:20 135:3

205:19 207:15,16

240:15 244:17

267:6 292:11

312:2 313:13
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 445

346:9

20-year 356:7

200 22:7

200,000 242:6

2007 37:1 272:12

2009 37:3 38:11

65:14 224:22

272:14 392:3

2012 65:19 224:22

355:16

2013 1:8 4:9 12:12

12:22

2014 65:21,22

73:19 75:1

2016 321:11

2017 66:1 71:7

235:14 289:3

294:12 316:6

317:5 332:16

388:5

2021 351:21

203 20:9

2045 299:20 300:1

2046 320:11

2047 316:6 317:9

317:10,13

2073 317:5,13

225 3:9

24 60:12 109:12

25 19:8,8,14 20:12

20:17 135:2 160:1

231:10,14 282:7

314:16 328:22

26 150:5,6,8

27 304:9

285 3:10

29 64:21

3

3 26:20 27:4 114:7

139:7 215:16

326:12 327:14

3'ish 10:21

3,000 36:19 102:10

293:9,11

3-inch 125:16

3.5 124:22 126:5

130:9 172:4

30 27:8 105:4 197:4

197:15 201:14

219:11 227:15

235:14 272:19

298:12 301:14

312:3 316:5

330:18

30th 4:22

31 155:2

31.6 368:13

32 36:15,16 40:11

100:18 160:11

200:3 364:9 369:6

369:15

32-square 279:9

324 3:12

33 197:5,8

34 199:17 200:2

282:15,16,20

344 3:13

356 3:14

36 3:4

39 356:8

39-year 356:6

394 3:15

4

4 3:2 15:13,15

16:11,17 26:13

93:13 125:1

138:17 139:7

165:21 215:10,13

280:2 306:11,18

307:20 319:1,6

359:22 362:10,19

363:7 364:17

374:20,20,21

376:13

4.1-4.3 38:3

4.4-4.5 38:7

4.5 15:9 162:13

375:2

4:42 395:5

40 219:11 301:14

332:11

40,000 240:8

400 20:16

41 40:13

42 36:7 329:10

330:17

429 70:14

431 38:3,6

431.304 38:15

431.306 37:13

44 178:2

45 111:9,10 177:13

177:14 178:1

181:8,11,13 182:2

197:4,15

460 37:11 148:16

48-inch 304:2

5

5 12:12 15:14,18

26:5,8,14,16,19

27:3,21 115:13

116:4 136:12

151:8 152:18

162:6 304:22

318:20,22 345:18

5A 168:10

5.53 388:19

50 23:11 48:20

105:8 197:14

227:14 333:13

50/60 355:17

518 35:16 82:1 96:4

55 36:15 40:11,14

62:8

55810 160:2

57 20:9

58 294:6

6

6 186:14 277:19

318:17

6,000 119:17

60 218:7

6295(o)(2)(B)(i)

36:7

7

7 13:1

7(d) 375:7

7.2 213:15

73-inch 304:3

75 17:12 93:10

147:18 231:8,12

314:11,17

750 18:19 23:12

333:12,16

76 48:9 49:14

340:17

8

8 93:13 162:12

165:20 213:13

302:12 368:15

8E 1:10

80 18:17 197:6

314:19 344:14

85 98:17 128:18

86 310:3

9

9 1:8 4:8 157:20

9,000 50:6 101:18

362:20 388:21

9:00 1:11

9:04 4:2

90 3:5

96,000 119:17
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

446

Energy Conservation Standards

for Walk-In Coolers and Freezers

US DOE

10-09-13

Washington, DC