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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL

 ADVISORY COMMITTEE

 COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL PUMPS WORKING GROUP

 CALL # MAY 0814-4 EE-5B

 TUESDAY, JUNE 17, 2014

 The above-referenced working group met

in Room 8037-A/B, 950 L'Enfant Plaza S.W.,

Washington, D.C., 20585, at 9:30 a.m., Doug

Brookman, Meeting Facilitator, presiding.
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public

Solutions, Inc.

3

LUCAS ADIN, U.S. Department of Energy

4

ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, U.S. Department of Energy

5

DANIEL COHEN, U.S. Department of Energy

6

JEREMIAH FREEMAN, New West Technologies

7

EMILY MARCHETTI, U.S. Department of Energy

8

DOUGLAS RAWALD, U.S. Department of Energy

9

JEFFREY ALASCIO, ABB, Inc.

10

ROBERT BARBOUR, TACO, Inc.

11

ROBERT BOTELER, Nidec Motor Corporation

12

CHARLES CAPPELLINO, ITT Corporation

13

GREG CASE, Pump Design, Development and

14 Diagnostics

15 TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation

Council

16

GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor-Owned

17 Utilities

18 MARK HANDZEL, Xylem, Inc.

19 JIANGANG HU, Rockwell Automation

20 ALBERT HUBER, Patterson Pump Company

21 JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness

Project

22

DOUGLAS POTTS, American Water
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued)

2 JAY SIVIGNY, Flowserve Corporation

3 LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance

4 GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos

5 MEG WALTNER, National Resources Defense Council

6 DANIEL WEINTRAUB, Navigant Consulting, Inc.

7 SARAH WIDDER, Navigant Consulting, Inc.

8 ALISON WILLIAMS, Lawrence Berkeley National

Laboratory

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 C O N T E N T S

2 Opening Remarks

 Doug Brookman 6

3

Introductions 7

4

Opening Remarks

5 Albert Huber, Patterson Pump 9

6 Energy Savings

 Opening Remarks

7 Alison Williams,

 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory 10

8

Comments/Questions 12

9

10

Slide Presentation

11

 Alison Williams,

12 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory 14

13 Comments/Questions 19

14

Adjourn for Caucus Consultations

15

16 Report on Caucus Consultations 67

 Tom Eckman,

17 Northwest Power and Conservation Council

18 Al Huber,

 Patterson Pump Company

19

20 Lunch Recess

21 Joint Proposal

 Description and Members Vote 91

22
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1 C O N T E N T S (Continued)

2

Certification 96

3 Ashley Armstrong,

 U.S. Department of Energy

4 Douglas Rawald,

 U.S. Department of Energy

5

6 Closing Remarks 174

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, let's start. Good

3 morning, everyone. So glad to see you. A hot,

4 summer day here in Washington, D.C. But this is

5 the U.S. Department of Energy's Commercial and

6 Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working

7 Group. How's the sound quality? Yes?

8 This I believe is the seventh meeting of

9 the working group here in 950 L'Enfant Plaza,

10 Washington, D.C. Today is June 17th, 2014. I'm

11 so happy to see you all here this morning. Why

12 don't we start with introductions around the room

13 and we'll see how good the -- these remote

14 microphones work?

15 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, U.S. Department

16 of Energy.

17 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power

18 and Conservation Council.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

20 representing the California Investor-owned

21 Utilities, which are Pacific Gas and Electric

22 Company, Southern California Edison Company, San
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1 Diego Gas and Electric Company and the Southern

2 California Gas Company.

3 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

4 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, Northwest

5 Energy Efficiency Alliance.

6 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance

7 Standards Awareness project.

8 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural

9 Resources Defense Council.

10 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, of TACO.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT

12 Corporation.

13 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

14 Institute.

15 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson Pump.

16 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem.

17 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve

18 Corporation.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Please?

20 MR. HU: Jiangang Hu, Rockwell

21 Automation.

22 MR. ALASCIO: Jeff Alascio from ABB.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremiah, introduce

2 yourself.

3 MR. FREEMAN: Jeremiah Freeman, New West

4 Technologies.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: And Emily over there as

6 well, our --

7 MS. MARCHETTI: Emily Marchetti.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: -- webmaster. Please?

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, Lawrence

10 Berkeley National Lab.

11 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific

12 Northwest National Lab.

13 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: And those of you joining

15 us online, welcome. We wish for you to

16 participate in this meeting as possible, given the

17 technology and the content that's here. Emily,

18 how many joining us online?

19 MS. MARCHETTI: Six.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Six, Doug Potts being

21 one? Doug, you're unmuted. Welcome, glad you

22 could join us via the web.
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1 MR. POTTS: Good morning.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. I received an

3 email from Doug saying he wouldn't be here in

4 person. He intends to be here tomorrow and the

5 next day. Steve Rosenstock also sent a note saying

6 he'd be absent today. I don't know about the

7 subsequent dates. But we're trying to keep track

8 of everybody here and that's why anybody who

9 hasn't yet handed a business card to Brenda so we

10 can make a Xerox copy of it, if you pass one

11 forward, we'll hand them off to her.

12 Had a brief conversation with several

13 members this morning and they indicated that, for

14 one thing, they wanted to go through the packet

15 that was sent out yesterday in considerable

16 detail, particularly to understand the changes and

17 the implications of the changes. I had a brief

18 conversation with Tom Eckman and Al Huber and

19 Lucas Adin just before we started and I thought

20 maybe some combination of those individuals might

21 like to make opening remarks.

22 MR. HUBER: It's Al Huber, Patterson.
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1 There have been some changes since the last

2 meeting on these slides. For instance, the

3 savings from 0.25 quads to 0.35 quads and so

4 forth. And we want to understand why and what

5 happened there.

6 We're also curious we were told we were

7 getting three weeks ago a new calculator which we

8 have not seen. We assumed that you developed a

9 new -- our assumption is you developed a new

10 calculator, you didn't distribute it to us and

11 you've come up with these slides using it. Is

12 that correct?

13 MS. WIDDER: That is not correct.

14 MR. HUBER: That is not correct?

15 MS. WIDDER: Those slides are made using

16 the same calculator that you all still have. I

17 apologize or we apologize --

18 MS. WILLIAMS: The slides and the

19 calculator are not really related actually.

20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, they're not -- yeah,

21 so the slides and the calculator are independent

22 things. You don't have an updated calculator but
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1 that shouldn't affect the savings numbers. That's

2 not the reason that the numbers in the slides have

3 changed.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: The reasons the numbers

5 in the slides have changed are?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Are we going through the

7 slides?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, we could just go

9 through them.

10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, so I think we could

11 do two things maybe this morning. I sent out a

12 list of updates that were going to be made to the

13 calculator right after the last meeting.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Right, two-and-a-half

15 weeks ago.

16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, and there was I think

17 one or two other recommendations made and I

18 apologize for not having sent it out yet. We can

19 review those -- all those changes that are being

20 made to the calculator and I can try my best to

21 try to send one out today.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. HUBER: The reason we want that from

2 our side is we was for that on guard technical

3 people to evaluate.

4 MS. WIDDER: Right.

5 MR. HUBER: And we need it.

6 MS. WIDDER: I completely understand

7 that. And so, I will do my best to get it sent out

8 today. I can also discuss how some of the changes

9 that we've implemented would affect the pass/fail

10 for pumps and based on our sort of playing with

11 the calculator, all of the changes that are being

12 made will be minor, so shouldn't affect the number

13 of pumps that pass or fail dramatically in any

14 category except for RSV, which I can discuss

15 later.

16 So we can do that. We can talk about

17 all the changes that will be made to the

18 calculator and I will do my best to get them all

19 implemented today and send you a new calculator.

20 And then Alison can talk about why there are

21 changes in the calculation of energy savings that

22 were distributed in the slides which is unrelated
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1 to the calculator.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: All right, so that was

3 Sarah Widder. Now, Lucas Adin?

4 MR. ADIN: I don't think I have anything

5 to add to that.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. Alison, do you

7 wish to add anything here?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Other opening remarks

9 before we dive into this content?

10 MR. ECKMAN: We just want to get an

11 understanding of why the numbers changed so much.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks, Tom. And

13 so let me remind you again, if you would please

14 say your name each time you speak for the record.

15 Then, shall we then begin with these slides?

16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes?

18 MS. WIDDER: Slides first?

19 MR. FREEMAN: Okay.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah? And why don't you

21 come sit at the table or wherever there's -- the

22 microphone up there or wherever you can see it
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1 best.

2 MR. FREEMAN: We're going to try New

3 Technologies.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, right. I think

5 that this was working earlier.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, now I can't see.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you need me -- which

8 way - - which way would be best for me to move so

9 you can see?

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Whatever.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I can move back.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, okay. Well, this is

13 pointless.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: And everybody has a copy

15 of these slides, I believe. Just use the paper

16 one, yeah.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: That way you won't have

19 to see it.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: It worked the first time.

21 Oh, was that the second one? Oh my gosh. Can you

22 guys actually see it? So the basic reason for the
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1 new numbers is that -- a smaller reason is that we

2 did finally merge -- the DOE and the HI database.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: You're referring to slide

4 number four.

5 MR. ADIN: What slide are you on?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I'm going to move

7 back. Okay, whatever. Do you guys all have

8 packets? So, so slide 10 is the new C-values from

9 the DOE and the HI merged database. So those are

10 basically --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to try to

12 keep up so the people on the web can --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Slide 10.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So basically these are

16 the C- values that this whole presentation is

17 based on. So they are slightly different from the

18 ones before. They're basically in between the DOE

19 and the HI C- values. We have another -- yes?

20 MR. ADIN: There's something we should

21 probably point out up front. We mentioned earlier

22 that the calculator and the C-values are not
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1 connected directly to the energy savings

2 estimates, right?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: No, the C-values are

4 connected.

5 MR. ADIN: The C-values are connected.

6 I'm sorry. But the energy savings estimates are

7 based on levels.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, no. The energy

9 savings estimates depend on the C-values.

10 MR. ADIN: Okay, well, we should explain

11 how that works.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: So --

13 MR. ADIN: I might be creating more

14 confusion, right?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So the -- when we

16 changed the merged database, the spread of

17 efficiencies is different and so there are more

18 lower efficiency pumps in the HI database.

19 And so, when we combine the two

20 databases, we do get more pumps on the low end.

21 So, like when we look at -- so that the C-values,

22 particularly on the low end would be different
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1 from the ones we were using before, which does

2 change the energy savings because it changes what

3 percentage of your population is at a lower energy

4 efficiency than it was before. So there is a

5 relatively modest change in energy savings.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: The distribution has

7 changed.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So in our analyses,

9 not only do we update the C-values, we actually

10 use the new database. So we're not using the same

11 database with updated C-values. We're using the

12 merged database, which has more pumps and more

13 pumps --

14 MR. HANDZEL: So how did you make sure

15 that there wasn't duplication by merging them?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, we binned our pumps

17 into the bins that were provided to us by HI and

18 NEMA and then we checked.

19 MR. HANDZEL: And your database is based

20 on all the surveys that were done last -- sorry,

21 Mark Handzel, with Xylem, excuse me. But your

22 surveys were based on all the data that you
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1 collected during the manufacturer surveys that you

2 did last summer?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, they're the more

4 recent surveys that we did in the beginning of

5 this year I think.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: You know, when we sent

8 out those Excel spreadsheets.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Then why is that data --

10 because that was the same data that we reported to

11 HI.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, we don't have as

13 many manufacturers as you do.

14 MR. HUBER: Yeah, we've got more.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: HI had more.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so what we wanted

19 to do --

20 MR. HANDZEL: So you used only the

21 manufacturers that you had confidentiality

22 agreements with or how did you decide who's in,
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1 who's out?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, okay, so we

3 started with ours which is some number of

4 manufacturers fewer than you guys have. The

5 reason we merged them though is because in some

6 cases, especially for in-line, we actually had

7 more pump models in our database than was provided

8 to us by HI.

9 And so, we didn't know what happened to

10 them but we figured we might as well merge them

11 because we didn't except to have data that HI

12 didn't have but it seemed like we did.

13 So we decided to merge them. So we --

14 because we have individual data for every pump and

15 the HI data we got was binned into, you know,

16 small flow and head bins. So we basically binned

17 our data into those same bins, compared all the

18 bins where some of the bins only have one pump in

19 them.

20 And so, for those we kept our data

21 because it was more exact whereas the binned data,

22 we didn't, you know, actually know what flow and
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1 head it was. When there were two or three pumps in

2 a bin, if the HI data had more data, we kept it

3 and if our data had more data, we kept it.

4 And if they were the same, we again kept

5 our data because it's individual. So we went

6 through and excised all the duplicates in that

7 manner.

8 So it predominately keeps the data we

9 had under NDA because it is more disaggregated and

10 then it adds extra HI data that we didn't have.

11 So that was the process for that.

12 And I think we have another deck that

13 shows the C-values from before, from the two

14 different datasets and the merged one that we can

15 distribute later so you guys can look at. But

16 anyway, so that was one aspect of what changed is

17 that we're doing different population of pumps.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's pause, take

19 questions here on this revelation.

20 MR. ECKMAN: I think we understood that

21 the dataset was going to be merged and there would

22 be some change to the C-values.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, that's the

2 relatively modest change.

3 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I --

4 MS. WILLIAMS: The larger change is that

5 there was an error in the original calculation.

6 So my apologies. Unfortunately, this rulemaking

7 has a different type of analysis than we typically

8 do.

9 We typically have these representative

10 units and a single cost curve. And anyway, this

11 LCC is much crazier than a usual one and we didn't

12 transfer it properly to the NIA because instead of

13 -- in the NIA, we have to use one cost curve and

14 one energy use curve for everything.

15 And anyway, I don't want to get into the

16 details. But we basically screwed it up the first

17 time. So it has been fixed.

18 So I apologize for that. We had done --

19 we had done the NIA in about two days right before

20 the last meeting due to the time constraints, so

21 typically we would have done more error checking

22 on it before it went out. So I apologize.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: It's good, because you

2 caught it. It's good. It's beneficial for all of

3 us. Questions? Additional questions here?

4 MR. STARR: So this is Louis Starr with

5 NEEA. So are the -- I think HI was talking about

6 PER 15 before and I think it corresponded with

7 DOE's PER and I forgot what that number was. How

8 much closer are those? How much is HI's per

9 levels and DOE's per levels now? Are they fairly

10 close?

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, we merged them.

12 MR. STARR: Right.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: So they're in the middle

14 somewhere.

15 MR. STARR: Okay.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: We have slides on that.

17 MR. STARR: Okay.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: If you need to look at

19 them, yeah, they're --

20 MR. STARR: I just -- okay.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: -- basically somewhere.

22 In some equipment classes, they're closer to ours.
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1 In some equipment classes, they're closer to HI's,

2 just depending on the population.

3 MR. STARR: All right.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

5 MR. STARR: We can wait until --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Does it make sense to

7 start at the beginning of these slides and walk

8 through them or I think maybe we should do that.

9 Yeah.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so I don't --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: You hesitate -- no, we

12 can do that.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: No, no, no. It's fine.

14 I'm not going to go through the first --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: You've got a question

16 down here.

17 MR. BARBOUR: Yes.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry.

19 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, from TACO.

20 And correct me if I'm wrong on this, but the way I

21 understood your response is that the original data

22 that DOE used was based on the original surveys
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1 that were done with a number of manufacturers

2 originally, correct?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. (Affirmative.)

4 MR. BARBOUR: And I know that when we

5 did the HI survey results, there was a very strong

6 emphasis placed on the fact that we wanted test

7 data results as opposed to marketing data results.

8 And there was some question originally if the data

9 that was provided to HI was marketing data versus

10 test data for all manufacturers.

11 So my thought was if the HI data was

12 actually based upon test data and it showed

13 efficiency levels that were lower, are we

14 arbitrarily, by mixing in the potentially

15 marketing data into this population, are we

16 raising the bar higher than we should be?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, that is a good

18 question. I think when we did the surveys, not

19 the ones last summer, but you know when we sent

20 out earlier this year the, like, Excel spreadsheet

21 surveys, a lot of -- most of them I would say came

22 to us approximately the same time they went to HI.
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1 So I -- and we did do duplicate

2 checking. So there were a few cases where there

3 were differences but I would say at least 95

4 percent of the -- probably more than that. I'm

5 just, like, guessing -- was the same data because

6 it came within, like, a week span.

7 So it is possible there is marketing

8 data in there but I think that's sort of, you

9 know, this is the first rulemaking and what's

10 maybe going to happen is when this goes into

11 effect, then the data that comes in next time will

12 actually all be tested because it has to be and

13 then it's unclear what you will find in the next

14 rulemaking.

15 But I mean, when you have marketing data

16 that's different from your test data, there's not

17 really much we can do about it I would say. I

18 mean, we were interested in whether the data we

19 had was higher than it actually is. But we have

20 no way short of the few pumps we have purchased to

21 identify that, so.

22 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour again
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1 with TACO. So what you're saying is you're not

2 really able to identify definitive original DOE

3 data that you used was marketing data.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean, I only know

5 what was given to me. I don't know if it was test

6 data or marketing data.

7 MR. BARBOUR: And you're not able to

8 segregate out the HI matching pump versus your

9 dataset.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so I'm -- so when

11 -- yeah, so when we did the duplicate checking,

12 like I said, we did notice a handful, maybe two

13 handfuls of pumps that had different efficiencies.

14 We can't tell in all cases because if there's more

15 than one pump in a bin, I think we don't get the

16 exact number.

17 So because we got binned data, it's

18 difficult to do this analysis. But I think the

19 order we're talking about is 5 percent or less of

20 pumps that maybe had differences between the two

21 datasets.

22 MR. BARBOUR: Okay, thank you.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, it's pretty small.

3 Yes, Louis?

4 MR. STARR: So, Louis Starr with NEEA.

5 So there's an HI dataset and then a dataset that

6 you have with nondisclosure agreements.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. (Affirmative.)

8 MR. STARR: So then in general it sounds

9 like your nondisclosure agreement datasets had

10 probably higher efficiency values on average than

11 HI? Would that be an accurate -- if the C-values

12 are --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so I don't think it

14 was the individual pumps had higher efficiency

15 values. It was that there was a larger spread of

16 pumps in the HI data. So they had, like, seven --

17 they had some number of manufacturers that we

18 didn't have and some of those seemed to be lower

19 efficient pumps.

20 So it's not that there was a change. In

21 the manufacturers that were both -- that were

22 across both datasets, there was very minimal
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1 change. Like I said, I think probably fewer than

2 5 percent of pumps changed, probably fewer than 2

3 percent, you know.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. What

6 you - - again, what you see here is that our

7 dataset is much larger and the original people

8 that they -- that they talked to under NDA were

9 mostly the market leaders.

10 MR. HANDZEL: It's the biggest guys too.

11 MR. HUBER: The biggest guys, general

12 efficiencies are higher anyway. So with our

13 dataset, we went out to the entire population of

14 pump manufacturers and asked them for data. Now,

15 we didn't get it from all of them but we got it

16 from a lot of them. And a lot of them don't have

17 as high efficiency. So I think that's why you see

18 that. It's probably more representative of the

19 total pump --

20 MR. HANDZEL: Industry.

21 MR. HUBER: -- industry. But anyway,

22 that's -- I think that explains the difference. I
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1 don't think it's so much market data versus test

2 data because we caution all of our members who've

3 got the NDAs and all of our members who

4 participate in both the HI and Navigant's

5 documents, that they should use test data and not

6 use market data or they may find themselves in

7 trouble.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, they might have made

9 an error.

10 MR. HANDZEL: So Alison, excuse me, one

11 more question. Mark Handzel, from Xylem. So you

12 mentioned with the pumps you're testing, so what

13 have you done with that and how is that going?

14 MS. WILLIAMS: That was really for test

15 procedure development, sorry.

16 MR. HANDZEL: Okay, so nothing -- you're

17 not going back and trying to correlate data?

18 Okay.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Not for the standard,

20 yeah.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Should we start at
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1 the beginning of these slides and just as needed?

2 Yes, let's start on the first page. Do you want

3 to --

4 MS. WILLIAMS: No, I'm going to skip the

5 first page. We all know this.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: I think this -- nothing

7 significant has changed here, correct?

8 MR. ADIN: The first slide is basically

9 just a summary of things that we already made

10 decisions on.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so then moving --

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, slide three is just

13 basically a reminder that for all these results,

14 we're looking at the same PER level across all

15 equipment classes. But obviously you can pick and

16 choose from amongst those.

17 So if, you know, this is basically just

18 the nomenclature thing we used for DOE but, like,

19 when we have -- when we're not showing results by

20 equipment class, they're all for the same PER

21 level whereas if you wanted to, you could say PER

22 25 for three pumps and PER 30 for three pumps and
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1 combine those into one number. So this is

2 basically just saying that right now everything is

3 the same across the board.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Please?

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

6 ITT. So I don't recall this term "trial standard

7 levels." Is that something new?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Yeah, so it's a

9 DOE -- it's a term we use in DOE's analysis.

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: They're combining -- so

12 what we've been looking at for PER is we would

13 typically call efficiency levels and then there's

14 for some reason DOE has this terminology where you

15 combine different efficiency levels into different

16 TSLs.

17 Now, often we combine them in ways like

18 we pick the efficiency level from each equipment

19 class that has the highest energy savings with

20 positive NPV or something like that. But in this

21 case, NPV is positive across everything. So

22 there's not really -- the ways we would typically
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1 use TSLs aren't really applicable to this

2 rulemaking I would say.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

4 MR. ADIN: Yeah, maybe a better way to

5 say it is it's a way of packaging a combination of

6 proposals --

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay.

8 MR. ADIN: -- across different

9 individual products that are all part of the same

10 rule in a way that you can analyze the impact of

11 the entire rule, understanding that the standard

12 levels might be a bit different for each different

13 product class or whatever it is that you're

14 looking at, so that you can make a decision on the

15 overall rule.

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: So, Charlie Cappellino.

17 So, so the packaging is basically done -- it's at

18 the discretion of the group to try and come up

19 before with a recommendation to move forward.

20 MR. ADIN: Yes.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

22 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. All right, thank
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1 you.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, and so, if the

3 packaging were different, then obviously the total

4 NES and NPV would change --

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: Sure.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: -- depending on what you

7 were combining.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: So I just wanted to lay

10 out at the beginning what we're combining.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thank you.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So, slide four is

13 basically the overarching national and

14 manufacturer impacts. So Chris isn't here today.

15 The MIA also changed slightly to reflect shipment

16 weighting of models. So I think that's a little

17 bit different than what you've seen before also.

18 And as we already discussed, the energy savings

19 and consequently the NPV is different.

20 But you know, the NPV is still

21 increasing across all TSLs. So the consumer

22 impacts are not really a limiting factor here and
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1 you can see the manufacturer impacts changing.

2 And I think the graph on the next page is probably

3 useful to look at for the MIA, that you've seen

4 that one before.

5 MR. ECKMAN: Sorry, can you go back to

6 the energy savings?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

8 MR. ECKMAN: And where was -- the

9 difference is pretty stark between the prior

10 estimates. It's threefold higher. So can you

11 explain in a little more detail how that happened?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Refer to the line. That

13 was Tom.

14 MR. ECKMAN: Line two where it was by

15 TSL. So it was 0.25 quads less than and now it's

16 0.09 quads at such and such across that line. Can

17 you explain why --

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. I mean, so that's

19 what I already explained, right. There's the

20 modest change from the database and there's the

21 much larger change from the error that we have

22 made.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: Not only the industry

2 present value but the calculation of the energy

3 associated with that change.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, no, this is

5 primarily really related to the -- it was --

6 MR. ECKMAN: Related to the energy.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: -- energy and not the

8 national present value, yeah. It was being -- not

9 being imported correctly. So I believe that this

10 is a much more accurate number.

11 MR. ECKMAN: At least more correct.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Modest is the key word.

15 MR. ADIN: So it's reasonable to say

16 that the numbers, had we done it that way the last

17 time, closer to what these are.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: They would have been

19 slightly lower. But they would have been closer.

20 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I should have

22 probably run it both ways to check and see. But
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1 yeah, I think there's -- maybe there's like 0.1 --

2 well, I don't -- yeah, yeah, so.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: 0.01.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Anyway, yeah, I mean,

5 yeah, I can -- all I can do is apologize. I mean,

6 there was a very rapid pace for us, so.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, there was a lot of

8 time pressure last time produced at NIA, we should

9 all acknowledge. Al Huber?

10 MR. HUBER: Is this going to be the

11 final, when you send out the new calculator and

12 when you've looked at these C-values, is this the

13 final, final?

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So I would say it's

15 mostly final. I think we have agreed before that

16 there is some tweaking we might need to do on,

17 like, the RSV values to make sure that it's

18 equivalent to the EU baseline. But these actually

19 don't include any savings from RSV, so.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So it's like 95 percent

21 final.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, and so, I would
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1 say, like --

2 MR. ECKMAN: So if there's a crosswalk

3 between the NIA and the --

4 MR. HUBER: There's not a crosswalk in

5 any of these. Okay.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: So --

7 MR. HUBER: But what I'm saying, I guess

8 what I'm saying on the industry's behalf --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

10 MR. HUBER: We -- for us to agree to

11 anything, the target has to stop moving.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So what I would

13 say is that I think what you can potentially do is

14 agree to, you know, that you want to go to PER 25

15 or something and we might tweak the C-value ever

16 so slightly to make sure we're there. But in

17 general, the impacts of going to PER 25 are going

18 to be virtually the same as they are here.

19 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. Why

20 can't you do that now? I mean, why do we have to

21 wait?

22 MS. WILLIAMS: You don't have to wait.
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1 MR. HUBER: We continually get different

2 figures every time we meet. If we -- if you know

3 we've got to go to a certain level and it's got to

4 be one of these others, I don't want to agree to a

5 level that you're going to tweak and really

6 becomes another level.

7 You understand? That we do not want.

8 As an industry, we do not want that. We want some

9 surety here that when you say 25, I give it to my

10 technical people and that's what they get. They

11 don't get something else.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: So -- okay, so what I

13 will say is the C-values on slide 10, I mean, if

14 you guys want to agree with those, we won't tweak

15 them anymore. But the only thing I said -- the

16 reason I mentioned that about RSV and to some

17 extent VTS is because we have limited data.

18 And so, we had received some

19 manufacturer feedback in the past that maybe our

20 C-values weren't very good. But I would say for

21 end suction close- coupled, frame-mounted and in22 line, we are -- like we can call those final if
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1 you guys agree with them.

2 RSV we're not calculating energy savings

3 for so it's sort of irrelevant. Well, it's not

4 irrelevant but it has nothing to do with the

5 numbers, the results. And Dan, do we think the

6 VTS C-values are okay?

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant.

8 The issue with the VTS, so we have good data on

9 3,600 and we wanted to -- what the group agreed to

10 last meeting in principle was that we would set

11 the 1,800 speed equal to the 3,600 speed so long

12 as there weren't any issues seen with pumps

13 failing under 1,800 that wouldn't have failed

14 under 3,600.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: So that was the --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So actually, all the pump

18 categories for which we have impacts for, we could

19 consider final right now and the ones that are

20 still in question, we're not calculating any

21 impacts.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: That's RSV?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: And VTS 1,800.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay.

3 MR. HUBER: It's my understanding that

4 our group agrees with that, with what he said. So

5 if that's what we're going to do, why don't we do

6 that and know what that is and be done?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: For the VTS? Yeah, I

8 mean, I think we want to.

9 MR. HUBER: And the RSV.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: And because the -- so

11 when the calculator goes -- I think you maybe

12 don't want -- we would --

13 MR. HUBER: I don't want any changes.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, okay.

15 MR. HUBER: When I agree to a PER with

16 the NGOs, when we agree, we want to be done. We

17 don't want to see another set of figures that

18 change.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So for all the

20 ones that the NIA and the MIA is calculated for,

21 we can call those done. It's the ones that we

22 don't have impacts calculated for that maybe are a
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1 little bit more problematic.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay?

3 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve. I

4 don't -- I think there's still some discussion to

5 be had on the industry net present value. Going

6 back from the slide that Chris put forth last

7 meeting, the flat markup recovery and cost

8 recovery markup levels were significantly worse

9 than they're showing now.

10 And during the teleconference, I did ask

11 Chris specifically what caused the change. And he

12 added motors into that. And he marked up those

13 motors at the exact levels as pumps, which is a

14 complete incorrect level to raise motors. There's

15 no way that the markups that he used, which were

16 the same for pumps, would be the same for motors,

17 just not what it seemed. So I would then say that

18 these INPV levels are dramatically overstated.

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: I'm going to speak to

20 that. So Dan Weintraub, Navigant. After hearing

21 those comments last meeting, we went out and

22 surveyed manufacturers that had given us markup
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1 data on pumps and then got responses on their

2 motors' markups and we found comparable numbers,

3 so based on the survey size that we had.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: How many -- can you tell

5 how many you surveyed?

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: More than three, because

7 there were people who had given us exact markup

8 numbers in their original surveys. If anyone else

9 wants to volunteer more data, what the exact

10 actual numbers -

11 MR. HANDZEL: So Mark Handzel. I

12 haven't responded because I went back and said I

13 want these numbers looked at more closely. So

14 we're still trying to make sure that we give you

15 accurate numbers.

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay.

17 MR. HANDZEL: But I did look at what we

18 supplied you and confirmed that's what you have.

19 But we're going back and looking at them again.

20 And obviously in some cases we struggled because,

21 you know, the pump is lumped in with the motor.

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: You know, so all we have

2 is an overall markup.

3 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, and when there is

4 an overall markup, then the assumption has to be

5 it's value in/value out.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought Dan's logic, or

8 Jay's logic was compelling. So and you're saying

9 but the data doesn't support his logic.

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: The data that we have

11 and I can't speak to which manufacturers give us

12 data, which don't. But the data that we were

13 given, that's what we have. We also have, if

14 you're looking at total INPV, so if Chris used --

15 I don't know the details of everything but he

16 used. But we had the total revenues of the

17 industry as given to us by HI also.

18 So you can see how those match up

19 because originally we had no motors which we had

20 backed down to no revenues without motors. We

21 actually have from HI revenue including motors.

22 That's what the survey was.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: HI -- pardon me. Al

2 Huber, please?

3 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. I

4 think what you're seeing here is a difference of

5 philosophies between some of the companies in the

6 way they mark up product. Some of the companies

7 combine the motor and pump and put out one markup.

8 Those that sell a lot of what we call

9 bare pumps without motors generally mark their

10 pumps up very high and their motors down as low as

11 10 percent or less. And that's -- but in the end,

12 if you combine the two, you end up pretty close to

13 where the others are just marking it all up the

14 same markup.

15 Do you understand what I'm saying? In

16 other words, somebody uses 35 and 10, somebody

17 uses 20 and 25. They end up in the same place in

18 the marketplace. And I think it's just a -- just

19 their philosophy of the way they mark their

20 product up.

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. And I'll add to

22 that it's the impact of those type of changes. So
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1 we're looking at some motor costs -- motor cost of

2 the product of about 30 to 40 percent of the whole

3 product cost and then we're talking about the

4 markup on top of that.

5 It's a small -- then it's the percentage

6 of the total revenues is what we're dealing with

7 here. So it is -- it could be significant if it

8 was a large change but the changes that seem to be

9 implied here don't seem to be large in value.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Louis Starr?

11 MR. STARR: So would it be -- I'm

12 guessing that the large pumps that you sell that

13 are separate from the motor are more likely not to

14 stick the markup together. So you have a 30

15 percent markup on the combination pump and motor.

16 That's not less likely because if you sell them

17 separately, someone would just buy the motor

18 separately and put them together and they don't

19 want to pay a little bit of markup.

20 So you can't mark up the big motors with

21 them and that's probably what Flowserve sells a

22 lot of is big pumps and big motors. So one could
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1 think that you could probably split up the markup

2 based upon market share of pumps sold with motors.

3 So if 80 percent of the market's pump

4 sold with motors, you could use a larger markup

5 and for the 20 percent of the market that's not,

6 you could use a smaller markup that's not sold

7 with the motor.

8 But I think that's kind of what Al was

9 saying is that sort of when you get done with

10 that, it ends up -- the average of those two will

11 end up being the same number, but so I don't know.

12 I don't know, does Jay -- I kind of would like to

13 hear what you have to say about that thought.

14 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve. I

15 just find it surprising that the data indicated

16 that with the pump and motor, the markup is

17 consistent with the levels that are shown on the

18 slide five of the previous discussion.

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, the 1.33, 1.34 or

20 --

21 MR. SIVIGNY: The 1.34, 1.35, combined

22 pump motor, those seem -
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: And you have to

2 remember, we do have a range of markups where some

3 manufacturers are marking it up less. Some are

4 marking it up more.

5 MR. SIVIGNY: Okay.

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: So everyone's going to

7 fall -- in comparison to those just alone on their

8 pump, everyone's going to fall differently than

9 those on what we see on that page.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino?

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

12 ITT. I was just going to confirm Louis'

13 observation that when you sell bare pumps and the

14 cost from head to choice of either buying the

15 motor themselves or it might be even a distributor

16 buying a motor and putting it with the pump,

17 generally then in that market dynamic, the pump

18 markup is different than the motor markup.

19 Right, so you tend to keep the motor

20 markup smaller so that you can actually get some

21 of that business as a pump manufacturer as opposed

22 to the customer buying it themselves. So if you
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1 have your motor up price too high, then anybody

2 else can go in and basically buy that motor

3 directly from somewhere else and you don't get any

4 of that business. So that's the dynamic.

5 MR. WEINTRAUB: Just to step back one

6 second and put it all in perspective, the big

7 change that we're seeing is that motor revenues

8 are included. That's the big jump from previously

9 because that's revenue stream that was not there

10 previously and then the markup is incremental on

11 top of just saying motor revenues themselves. So

12 that's the big change.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So, thank you, Dan.

14 Additional questions on this? I think we're

15 gaining some clarity here. I'm still on slide

16 number four. It could be because I'm noting that

17 individuals are making notes to themselves on that

18 slide.

19 I want to make sure we -- any additional

20 questions on this important slide, the NIA and MIA

21 results? Okay, so then, and Alison, you were

22 referring to slide number five, I believe, the
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1 chart, the --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean, the chart

3 has the -- the chart -- the percent change in

4 industry INPV on slide four is what's shown in the

5 graph on slide five. So it's just a visual way of

6 looking at it.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: So if no one has any

11 other MIA questions I can't answer? So slides six

12 and seven are the updated average LCC sayings and

13 payback periods for the two different scenarios we

14 looked at. The numbers have changed.

15 In some cases, they're higher. In some

16 cases, they're lower but in general consumer

17 impacts are still positive across the board. So I

18 don't know that we need to look at -- and that's

19 true for both the no cost recovery and the full

20 cost recovery scenario.

21 MR. STARR: So the point of -- oh,

22 sorry.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr?

2 MR. STARR: The point of the slide -- of

3 the graph on the two, the green and yellow line,

4 is this just the change from your last NPV

5 scenarios, right?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: No, this is the change to

7 industry NPV as a result of the standard. So it

8 is different from before but it's not showing

9 change from before. It's showing change from

10 industry NPV due to the standard.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you repeat that?

12 I'm sorry.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, Dan? It is updated

14 results but the percent change refers to change

15 from industry net present value.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Are we staying with this?

17 Is everybody -- I'm seeing a few furrowed brows

18 here as I like cast my eyes around the room. Yes,

19 Greg Case?

20 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. This is still

21 based on the shipments increasing at some rate.

22 Did we ever work out that shipments model?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: It's based on a model

2 that went from, like, 420,000 in 2012 up to around

3 700,000 in --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thirty years.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: In 30 years, yeah. Is

6 that right?

7 MR. HUBER: What is that increase, that

8 annual?

9 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't have it on me.

10 MR. HUBER: It's about 3 percent?

11 MR. SIVIGNY: It was less than three.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Less than three.

13 MR. SIVIGNY: We calculated the CGAR

14 last meeting.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, Steve was

16 calculating it. Do you want me to pull up the

17 numbers?

18 MR. WEINTRAUB: It's less than three.

19 MR. HUBER: That's reasonable.

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Less than three.

21 MR. HUBER: Yeah, that's reasonable.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: So, was he -- this is Tom

2 Eckman. Was this what he intended in the orange

3 or yellow line? Last time I recall that it dipped

4 below zero as we got out to maybe PER 40.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think he updated

6 those for the webinar though.

7 MR. ECKMAN: He did.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: And it was our -- I think

9 for the webinar he included the motor in his

10 already.

11 MR. ECKMAN: So this is largely a

12 function including the motor.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

14 MR. ECKMAN: And there wasn't a -- not

15 that that's particularly relevant for discussion.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: There was in the webinar.

17 MR. HUBER: There was, there was.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

19 MR. HANDZEL: This is almost exactly

20 what he showed at the webinar.

21 MR. HUBER: My question has --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, --
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, I don't know but

2 one of the things he chalked it up to was

3 uncertainty in the model as things diverge.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

5 MR. WEINTRAUB: That's all I can say.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Dan Weintraub.

7 Okay.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: If you guys need to

9 negotiate up there, we can get further --

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So just so I understand,

12 and I probably understand these machinations less

13 than about anybody in the room, these figures on

14 slide 10, with the exception of RSVs and the VTS

15 1,800, if we establish these or fix these values

16 and say going forward this is what we will accept

17 as the values for this working group, that will

18 also fix the NIA and MIA results?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: It will fix them for the

20 purposes of this negotiation. I'm going to throw

21 this out here just so you know. What gets

22 published in the NOPR might not be exactly these
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1 numbers. We have to meet requirements from OIRA

2 and other entities.

3 So you know, there may be some -- I

4 don't expect, like, anything to go negative or

5 anything like that. But we can't guarantee that

6 it's going to be exactly 0.64 when the NOPR gets

7 published just because of some analytical things

8 we may be required to introduce through the review

9 process, but --

10 MR. HANDZEL: Can you elaborate on OIRA?

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry, the office of

12 something regulatory affairs?

13 MR. ADIN: Information and Regulatory

14 Affairs. It's part of the Office of Management

15 and Budget.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, we anticipate that

17 this working group is going to achieve a consensus

18 and make a recommendation to ASRAC. ASRAC's going

19 to then do its business and hopefully confirm work

20 on this working group's recommendation. You're

21 saying that beyond that, to meet DOE's statutory

22 obligations, you might need to make further
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1 refinements.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: But they're refinements.

4 They're not -- right?

5 MR. HANDZEL: Tweaks.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so basically --

7 yeah, I'm just saying this. I mean, I think in

8 generally you can consider them fixed. But I just

9 wanted to say it so that you're not surprised

10 later. But like, the NIA, for example, is really

11 simple right now.

12 And I need to introduce some slightly

13 complicating factors that will have minimal

14 impacts on the results but I can't do it on this

15 short a timeframe. So there will be some

16 refinements, as Doug said, later but it will not -

17 - I will guarantee you that it will not change the

18 relationship between the levels or the general

19 magnitude or anything like that.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: You heard Al Huber asking

21 for some certainty on behalf of the manufacturers'

22 caucus. These refinements, or as Mark Handzel
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1 wanted to qualify them as tweaks, they're -- how

2 would you -- how would you characterize them

3 quantitatively?

4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I think,

5 Al, you were referring mostly to the C-values,

6 having those fixed, not so much the energy savings

7 being tweaked a little bit.

8 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I don't really --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: So we can fix the C10 values, yes.

11 MR. HUBER: That's not a problem.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks, Joanna.

13 Meg, you're next in the queue.

14 MS. WALTNER: So that added to my first

15 question. But let me -- I wanted to ask about the

16 INPV analysis a little more, if we can move back

17 to that.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, before you do, did

19 you want in here, Lucas?

20 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, it was just a

21 question for a follow-on.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.
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1 MR. ADIN: More for the manufacturer's

2 side since this is clearly an item of significant

3 interest and importance to getting to a decision

4 on a standard level. For the purpose of C-values,

5 I mean, we've modified them only where we've

6 received input. I mean, we came up with values

7 based on the best data we had and we received some

8 feedback that maybe those weren't good.

9 And so, now this is now the best, you

10 know, that we can come up with, with what we have

11 and we believe they're as nearly correct as we can

12 make them. And so, if there's general agreement on

13 where those stand now and it would be useful or

14 important to the group to getting to a decision, I

15 mean, we can do that earlier rather than later if

16 we want to make sure that those are fixed in

17 place.

18 MR. HUBER: As long as they're fixed in

19 place, we don't have a problem. We just want them

20 fixed, as long as we make the decision.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so let's -- on that

22 note, let's go to slide 11 also because I want to
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1 be clear before you guys agree to fix them.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, but just a second.

3 Meg, are you in this?

4 MS. WALTNER: Sure, sure.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, keep going? Keep

6 going, okay.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So we haven't talked

8 about this before but the table on slide 11 shows

9 actually how many -- what percentage of pumps we

10 think our C- values are cutting off.

11 So they're not exact to the levels, like

12 the 25 is cutting off between 25 and 27 percent.

13 The reason for this is that it's mathematically

14 extremely difficult to solve this problem to

15 figure out the C- value. I'm not going to go into

16 it. But we basically ignored the motor losses

17 when setting these C-values.

18 And so, then when you actually include

19 the motor losses, you get a slightly different

20 percentage cut out of the market. So just for

21 transparency sake, these are the actual numbers

22 that we think these C- values are cutting off.
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1 So the C-values we have listed under PER

2 25 are really probably cutting off more like 26

3 percent. It's a rough number either way because we

4 don't have the entire market. So these are really

5 just our best guesses regardless of the percentage

6 that's different.

7 So it may be that in the market it's

8 really 23 percent or it's really 28 percent and we

9 just don't have the whole market. So I would

10 consider this sort of like noise in the general

11 uncertainty of it.

12 But I just wanted to be transparent

13 about what this is doing. And so, we can change

14 those if it's important. But if you're

15 negotiating somewhere between 25 and 40 or 10 and

16 25 or, you know, if you're not negotiating one of

17 these exact levels anyway, you know, we'll have to

18 calculate C-values for those exact levels.

19 So we can fix the C-values. I'm just --

20 you know, want to be transparent on what we think

21 they're doing to the market right now.

22 MR. CASE: Well --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case?

2 MR. CASE: Oh, I'm sorry. Greg Case,

3 Hydraulic Institute. So when you add in the motor

4 losses, do you think those values go up or down?

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, we -- so these -- so

6 the numbers on slide 11 are including the motor

7 losses.

8 MR. CASE: Okay, they're in there.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So when we set the

10 C- values, we set it not considering motor losses.

11 But then we went in using the calculator with all

12 our data to see what it actually is just because

13 of, like, this mathematical problem for individual

14 pumps.

15 So these are -- the ones on slide 11 are

16 including motor losses. So whereas we set the C17 values on slide 10 to try to get exactly to 25

18 percent, we don't exactly hit it is basically.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, so just to clarify

20 or just to confirm, your first sub-bullet at the

21 top of the page under the big bullet, it says this

22 is a time consuming mathematical problem to solve
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1 if including motor losses. So the motor losses

2 aren't included -- are included but some

3 additional refinements are needed?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: No. So I'm sorry. This

5 is like -- the mathematical problem is only on our

6 part to calculate these initial C-values. It's

7 not a mathematical problem, like, to calculate for

8 your own pump whether it passes or fails at a

9 given C-value, so

10 --

11 MS. WIDDER: It's basically because we

12 have the minimally compliant pump in the

13 denominator. Because we -- we actually talked

14 about this way back when we were talking about

15 denominators. So we have to know what the PER for

16 a minimally compliant pump is including motor

17 losses in order to know what your PEI is for a

18 pump. And so it's either --

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Circular.

20 MS. WIDDER: So you have to solve it and

21 then for every pump in the universe and then guess

22 you might be near 25 and then redo it and redo it
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1 and redo it.

2 MR. ADIN: It's an iterative.

3 MS. WIDDER: And because the motor

4 losses, as we discussed last time, is this really

5 lovely cubic equation, it just makes it immensely

6 complex to solve. And so, it's still iterative --

7 well, it's less iterative.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: No, we're not -- we

9 haven't iterated, so.

10 MS. WIDDER: Right, we haven't iterated.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: We could but we do not

12 need to.

13 MS. WIDDER: Right. We accept them with

14 like a pretty close, not including motor losses

15 and then when you account for the motor losses, it

16 changes it like 1 or 2 percent.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So now I'm confused, no

18 surprise. Looking at slide number 10, or slide

19 number 11, those clarifying remarks that you made

20 about how those were derived, how does that affect

21 this group's ability to fix the figures in slide

22 10?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: I think they can fix them

2 as long -- I just wanted to be transparent about

3 what they're fixing.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: That would --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: So we don't have to

6 adjust anything. We can leave it as it is. As

7 we've all said, we think it's essentially in the

8 noise as to what's really happening in the

9 population. I just didn't want you -- want you

10 guys to think we were throwing one over on you or

11 something like that, so.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's very useful, very

13 helpful. And so, from the analyst perspective, is

14 there a downside in fixing the figures in number

15 10, as some in this room have expressed an

16 interest in doing?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So all I would say is

18 that for RSV and for VTS 1,800, we might want to

19 not necessarily fix those at the moment in order

20 to achieve the goals that you've agreed on for

21 those. But again, there are no impacts for RSV and

22 VTS 1,800.
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1 So all of the impacts -- so there's

2 basically two different discussions. There's what

3 efficiency levels you want for all of the -- all

4 of the equipment classes that have impacts and

5 then there's exactly where you want to set the RSV

6 and the VTS 1,800 levels to do what you want those

7 levels to do, which is a bit of a different

8 animal. So we might want to try to separate those

9 two things.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, interesting. Okay,

11 Al, you wish to comment, question?

12 MR. HUBER: Well, I don't understand why

13 we'd want to do that. I don't -- I wasn't here

14 last meeting and I guess I don't understand

15 everything.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: OH, okay.

17 MR. HUBER: But I don't -- why VTS?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so --

19 MR. HUBER: You've got data on 3,600.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

21 MR. HUBER: And you know it's good and

22 we've agreed to set it at the 1,800 by the date
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1 and the

2 3,600.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, so my understanding

4 is that you guys, or whoever was here, wanted to

5 set 1,800 so that the same pumps that fail at

6 3,600 also fail at 1,800.

7 MR. HUBER: That's fine.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: And we received a little

9 bit of feedback that the numbers we have right now

10 aren't really doing that. And we haven't -- but

11 we haven't received very much feedback on that.

12 So I think for that, the goal -- like

13 maybe your agreement for VTS 1,800 would be we

14 want to cut off the same pumps cut off in 3,600

15 and that might need a little more refinement.

16 MR. HANDZEL: So we wanted to look at --

17 excuse me, Mark Handzel, from Xylem. We wanted to

18 look at that but we were waiting for the 2,300.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: I know, I know. I

20 apologize.

21 MR. HANDZEL: And so that's --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, and so that's why
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1 I think there's two different things. So that's

2 the VTS and then the agreement for RSV, or not the

3 agreement but sort of the feeling was that we

4 wanted RSV to basically be equivalent to the EU

5 MEI 40.

6 And so that's what we're trying to do

7 with these C-values. But again, we might not be

8 exactly precise with those. So my understanding

9 is that those are the goals for VTS 1,800 and RSV.

10 And so, that's one discussion.

11 And then the goal for ESCC, ESFM, IL and

12 VTS 3,600 is to decide what PER level you want for

13 these and what impacts you're going to get out of

14 them. Did that help? So I don't know if it's be

15 just easier to like tackle those four first and

16 then make these general agreements for RSV and VTS

17 1,800, that maybe those will have to be slightly

18 tweaked still to achieve the intent that you want?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So correct me what I'm

20 about to say here, okay, Alison? My recollection

21 from the last meeting was that the RSV category

22 was moving toward or close to the emerging EU
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1 standard anyway, if there weren't any energy

2 savings there presumptively and so that's the

3 reason that's a separate matter.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. We are not going

5 to calculate energy savings for it because we're

6 going to assume we're setting it at the baseline

7 essentially, which is EU Lot 11, MEI 40. But we

8 just need to be sure that the C-values we pick are

9 really to the EU MEI 40. We could say these --

10 you could if you wanted to vote out these things.

11 But as Mark said, you haven't seen the

12 updated calculator and so maybe it would be

13 worthwhile to agree on the intent and vote out the

14 exact C-values a little bit later. I mean, you

15 guys, whatever approach you guys want to do on

16 that would be fine.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we need to have a

18 brief caucus here or --

19 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. So the

20 issue with the RSV, is it the difference between

21 50 and 60 hertz or --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: It's also the difference
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1 between MEI and PER. So we estimated a difference

2 but it's just an estimate. And so, you know,

3 we've gotten feedback from some manufacturers that

4 were like, we calculated which of our pumps fail

5 under the MEI and which of our pumps fail under

6 these C-values and it doesn't really match up, so

7 yeah.

8 I mean, it probably will never match up

9 completely exactly. Like, there might still be a

10 pump that passes in one and doesn't pass in the

11 other.

12 MS. MAUER: Yeah, okay.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: But we want to try to

14 limit that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr?

16 MR. STARR: So I'm guessing the reason

17 the pump guys wanted to nail down all the C-levels

18 is probably some people that make those kind of

19 pumps also make the others and when they go to

20 crunch that data, they only want to crunch it

21 once.

22 And so, they probably can't, like, give
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1 us some of the numbers now and give us some of the

2 numbers later. It'll probably be hard to get the

3 first set of numbers much less a second set of

4 numbers. So I'm betting they just wanted to give

5 them to them once and see how their pumps do is

6 what I'm guessing.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Well, between the last

8 meeting and the one before that, we went through

9 11 versions of the calculator. So remember, we

10 came in last time and we said we've got to stop,

11 you know. So we stopped but we didn't get the 12

12 versions.

13 So that's what -- you know, we wall

14 wanted to do one more version of the calculation

15 based on the changes we knew were coming so that

16 we could walk in here knowing where we stood. And

17 you know, yeah, I mean, we got a pretty good idea,

18 but yeah.

19 MR. HUBER: So we're ready to caucus if

20 you guys are.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: What do you think?

22 Fifteen minutes? Ten minutes? It's now 10:20.
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1 Let's say we'll resume at 10:45, okay? So thanks

2 for a good start on the day and thanks, Alison,

3 for all that clarification. And before we go,

4 Charlie Cappellino?

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: Is there places we can

6 go and have a discussion but we're not going to

7 have to go back through security and everything

8 else? Lucas, is there any?

9 MR. ADIN: Yeah, let me check. I know

10 there's an empty room down the hall. I'll make

11 sure it's open, if you want to use that one.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay.

13 MR. ADIN: And everyone else can just

14 meet in here.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Because if you go down

16 to get coffee, then you've got to go back through

17 security.

18 MR. ADIN: Yeah, that's true.

19 MR. CAPPELLINO: And you can spend the

20 15 minutes just getting out and back, so. So just

21 down the hall?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: If anybody's going for
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1 coffee, you have to go back through security.

2 Make sure you get your badge because you'll need

3 it. But you can do that. We'll have someone --

4 we'll try to make sure that you don't have to wait

5 getting back in. Once you get through the

6 elevator, bam that door.

7 So other questions or clarifications

8 before we go to break, our caucus time as well.

9 We'll resume at 10:45. Okay, you want to search

10 around for a room?

11 MR. ADIN: Yeah, I'll check right now.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks.

13 (Whereupon, the foregoing recessed

14 at 10:24 a.m., and resumed at

15 11:42.)

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So, you ready? Okay,

17 welcome back. During this morning segment, both

18 of the major caucuses had a chance to meet and I

19 was wondering if we have a report from either of

20 the caucuses or where we stand at this point. Tom

21 Eckman and Al Huber, which of you would like to go

22 first?
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1 MR. ECKMAN: We can both say we're

2 mostly in agreement.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Wait, wait, wait.

4 Before we go any further, let's applaud right now.

5 (Laughter, applause.)

6 MR. ECKMAN: Let's hit the high points

7 of agreement first and then we'll talk about

8 issues to be resolved. They're not disagreements,

9 they're just issues, bows to put around a package

10 that we need. So I think we're in agreement on

11 TSL 2 which is a 25 percent, 25 PER, 25 precisely.

12 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I want to clarify

13 that. When we say 25, we mean 25. We don't mean

14 27 and we don't mean 26. We mean 25.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: And you don't mean 25.2.

16 MR. HUBER: No, we mean 25.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: So, now the C-values are

19 not fixed.

20 MR. HUBER: They'll be fixed at 25.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

22 MR. ECKMAN: Whatever produces that
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1 result.

2 MS. WIDDER: As long as there's only one

3 that you have to iterate as.

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: We'll iterate together.

5 MR. HUBER: All right.

6 MR. ECKMAN: All right. So we're 25

7 point something, zero.

8 MR. HUBER: There you go.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Exactly.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

11 MR. ECKMAN: All right, with a four-year

12 lead time.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

14 MR. ECKMAN: Effective date. And I

15 think that's the high level and I think Al and I

16 can state that that's -- we believe we'll garner

17 enough votes to pass around the table.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 MR. HUBER: Yes.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Are there any further

21 clarifications that the manufacturers' caucus

22 wishes to add?
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1 MR. HUBER: No, I think you need to move

2 for a vote on that.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 MR. STARR: There's something else about

5 the certification and that's more of a DOE thing.

6 MR. ECKMAN: Well, I think that's where

7 we have the certification and all of the test

8 results and stuff like that, we need to have that

9 as a second part of the term sheet. But we talked

10 about the stuff for ACEEE and those kind of

11 things.

12 MR. HUBER: Yeah.

13 MR. ECKMAN: So, but the standard level,

14 that's 25 in four.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Is that for all equipment

16 classes except for RS-V?

17 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, well, all the

18 remaining classes.

19 MR. HUBER: All classes except RS-V.

20 MR. ECKMAN: RS-V, right.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Al and -

22 MR. ECKMAN: Which would MEI equal
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1 whatever the crosswalk is with MEI 40.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm looking at the

3 analytical team over here. Are there any other

4 clarifications that you think need to be made to

5 this proposal? Nothing additional? Okay.

6 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I just

7 wanted to just expand a little bit on kind of some

8 of the certification things. I think there's two

9 things we'd like to see. One is, you know,

10 voluntary early certification so that there's data

11 available for manufacturers who wish to certify

12 early for utility programs.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Just so I can clarify,

14 this is -- you wish to make this a part of this

15 proposal?

16 MR. HUBER: It can't be, can it?

17 MR. ECKMAN: I think we can -- I think

18 we ought to talk --

19 MR. HUBER: I mean, we agreed with you

20 to do those things.

21 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think we ought to -

22 -
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1 MR. HUBER: But I don't think it can be

2 part of this.

3 MR. HANDZEL: It can't be part of the

4 rulemaking.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like to close on this

6 proposal that's on the table unless you think it's

7 --

8 MR. ECKMAN: I think we can put it on

9 the term sheet. It doesn't have to be a DOE

10 necessarily.

11 MR. HUBER: What do you mean by term

12 sheet?

13 MR. ECKMAN: The term sheet, we -- like,

14 the term sheet we have on circulators. We had an

15 item on there. We're going to take those on,

16 right? That's part of the DOE. That doesn't mean

17 it's this rulemaking. It means that there's a

18 rulemaking to handle circulators and cool pumps.

19 So that's this but so there's what I'd

20 call the statutory rule part which is the 25 in

21 four. That's the rule. And then there's other

22 things that we have on the term sheet that we come
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1 to agreement on because we agreed that the 25 in

2 four would work as part of this package.

3 MR. HUBER: The only problem I have with

4 that, Tom, is I voiced to you out there we can

5 only speak for the companies that are here.

6 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

7 MR. HUBER: We cannot speak for the

8 balance of them. And what we committed to and the

9 companies that are here, we're willing to do that.

10 But I can't -- I can't speak for the rest of the

11 industry on that subject.

12 MR. ECKMAN: I think what we're looking

13 for, and I'll check with my caucus here, but I

14 think what we're looking for is since you

15 represent a fair chunk of the industry, that would

16 be good enough.

17 MR. HUBER: I think what we will do,

18 depending on how long -- I mean, it's hard to say

19 if it's going to be a year-and-a-half after or two

20 years after, two-and-a-half years after. It just

21 depends on how long it takes people to get their

22 testing accomplished.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, and I think what we'd

2 like to do is get some certainty, make a

3 reasonable proxy for that date, say, you know,

4 starting three years out or whatever it is.

5 MR. HUBER: I think we probably can do

6 that.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So Louis, Joanna's got

8 the floor. Joanna, do you want to continue?

9 MS. MAUER: Sure. So one piece was

10 giving manufacturers the ability to certify early

11 to DOE that there's data available --

12 MR. STARR: Voluntarily.

13 MS. MAUER: Right, voluntarily. And

14 then the second piece that I think we've mentioned

15 before is I think we'd prefer this to be required

16 that at a minimum voluntary for manufacturers to

17 certify not just the PER, PEI but, you know, power

18 levels at 75, 100, 110, you know, all the kind of

19 inputs that go into calculating PER again so that

20 --

21 MR. ECKMAN: So it would be the fields

22 that would be reported in that database.
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1 MS. MAUER: Right.

2 MR. ECKMAN: So we can talk about what

3 that is. But for our purposes running programs,

4 having the part load data allows us to create

5 calculators to make use of that data.

6 MR. HUBER: I'm not so sure -- I'm not

7 so sure the industry is going to want -- I mean,

8 we don't have any problem giving you -- giving you

9 consolidated data. But I'm not too sure that

10 everybody would be too excited about giving your

11 individual data. Is that --

12 MR. HANDZEL: Well, each company will

13 have to report -- excuse me, Mark Handzel, from

14 Xylem. Each company will have to report in a

15 database this is some of the details.

16 MR. HUBER: To DOE.

17 MR. HANDZEL: To the DOE.

18 MR. HUBER: Yeah, right. That we

19 understand.

20 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, that's what we're

21 talking about.

22 MR. HANDZEL: That's what he's talking
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1 about.

2 MR. ECKMAN: What you would report to

3 DOE would have --

4 MR. HANDZEL: So we need to set that up

5 so you have -

6 MR. ECKMAN: Have the proper

7 information.

8 MR. HANDZEL: Have the efficiency at,

9 you know, whatever or percentages you need to do

10 the calculations.

11 MR. HUBER: So you can calculate the

12 extended products.

13 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, exactly. You got it.

14 MR. HUBER: We've got no problem with

15 that.

16 MR. ECKMAN: Okay, we can -- part of our

17 view, part of the terms you've got to list out so

18 that everybody's clear what that is. So when DOE

19 sets up the database, the right column headings

20 are there.

21 MR. HUBER: Okay, no problem.

22 MR. ECKMAN: Does that make sense?
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1 MR. HUBER: Yeah, no problem.

2 MR. STARR: The part of the reason is

3 more just that, if that DOE database, it's

4 credible and so then you can start awarding the

5 rebates and things earlier.

6 MR. HUBER: Right.

7 MR. STARR: So you can help the market -

8 - it would help out the market.

9 MR. HUBER: With an eye toward the

10 extended product more than anything else.

11 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, that's it.

12 MR. STARR: So it's really just a lot of

13 times we don't have that data. Then you can't

14 really set up a rebate program if you're not

15 really exact on what it is.

16 MR. HANDZEL: Right. But just remember,

17 so what we'll be reporting will be the pump

18 information. So then there'll have to be motor

19 information and drive information and other

20 sources.

21 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

22 MS. MAUER: No. Well, just kind of --
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1 but you're going to be reporting the pump is with

2 a motor and drive you're selling it at, right?

3 MR. ECKMAN: We haven't talked about

4 this so I mean, that's --

5 MR. HUBER: No, we haven't gotten down

6 to that yet.

7 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

8 MS. MAUER: But those are part of the --

9 those will go into the PER calculation.

10 MR. HUBER: We understand that. But we

11 aren't agreed to that yet. I mean, we haven't

12 discussed how we're going to do that.

13 MR. ECKMAN: We haven't even talked

14 about how we're going to set the database up,

15 yeah.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is -- this is

17 Gary -

18 -

19 MR. HUBER: Right now. I'm sorry, Gary.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: We have the hope and

21 expectation that the database is going to move to

22 reflect this extended product eventually. And we
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1 would hope that would be reported to DOE soon so

2 that we can try and develop voluntary programs.

3 MR. HUBER: Yeah. Well, the

4 calculations -- Al Huber, Patterson. The way --

5 the way that they have set this up so far is that

6 you have a standard motor and you have a standard

7 control. So the only thing changing is the pump

8 itself.

9 MR. ECKMAN: Pump.

10 MR. HUBER: Somewhere in the future, I

11 suppose that will change. But at this point,

12 that's what -- that's what the regulations got to

13 be. So I assume, I don't know this, but a

14 manufacturer at some point could do his own

15 testing and he could -- he could put out whatever

16 he wants to put out.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Exactly,

18 and we would hope that when it's available,

19 hopefully sooner would be reported to DOE.

20 MR. HANDZEL: So, Mark Handzel, from

21 Xylem. I just think we need to talk about this

22 because obviously, you know, we're going to get
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1 into infinite combinations of motor drives and

2 pumps --

3 MR. HUBER: Yeah, we've got to be

4 careful.

5 MR. HANDZEL: -- that is going to create

6 and administrative nightmare for the pump

7 manufacturers because, you know, every pump, you

8 know, could take five to six different motor

9 horsepower, obviously different speeds, different

10 voltages.

11 So all that's motor data. You know, so

12 it just -- you know, this thing is going to go

13 huge on the data reporting side.

14 MR. ADIN: So it sounds like there are

15 kind of two questions out there right now. One

16 is: can it be done that way? The other is: is it

17 going to be voluntary or is it going to be

18 required? Is that -- and is that --

19 MR. ECKMAN: Our view -- there'll be a

20 requirement four years from now because they're

21 going to have to satisfy --

22 MR. ADIN: On the pump side.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: On the pump side they'll

2 have to satisfy that.

3 MR. ADIN: Yeah, right.

4 MR. ECKMAN: And it's a question of what

5 goes in the database in addition to the bare pump

6 or to the rating per DOE test procedure.

7 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna --

8 MR. ADIN: That's at a minimum what has

9 to be.

10 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, that's at a minimum

11 and the question is what in advance of that

12 timeframe can we agree to be made available so we

13 could use it in programs.

14 And I think we need to have probably

15 this afternoon and maybe tomorrow some discussion

16 about what those are because we haven't talked

17 about that part of the term sheet. What we talked

18 about right now was the level --

19 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, because we've done

20 energy calculation based on a standard product,

21 so.

22 MR. ECKMAN: -- the leveling now --
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1 level and timing and now we need to talk about

2 adjuncts to that that would facilitate the

3 movement to those standard levels and use of those

4 extended product data.

5 MR. HUBER: Yeah, well I don't -- I

6 don't think there's a problem with us submitting

7 what's going to be required and we're going to

8 have to be -- you know, we're going to be required

9 to calculate it with a standard motor and a

10 standard control and we'll have to submit that.

11 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

12 MR. HUBER: I mean, I assume that's the

13 case.

14 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, and that's what we

15 would use.

16 MR. HUBER: And that's probably what

17 you're going to get.

18 MR. ECKMAN: That's what we would use.

19 MR. HUBER: And that's kind of your

20 baseline. So anything about that you could call

21 premium or whatever you want to call it.

22 MR. ECKMAN: If you also offer that
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1 product with a premium motor or a different

2 control, that would be another listing and we

3 could use that.

4 MR. BOTELER: Yeah, switch to an ECM or

5 something.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Rob, now Gary.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: We would want you to

9 have the capacity to voluntarily report this

10 extended product information and DOE to have the

11 capability of accepting it and including it in the

12 database.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem.

14 I don't think we disagree.

15 MR. HUBER: If it's voluntary, I think

16 it's okay.

17 MR. HANDZEL: I think we just have to

18 figure out how we're going to do it and voluntary

19 and also understanding we may need to make some

20 compromises --

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Sure.

22 MR. HANDZEL: -- to keep the reporting
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1 at a reasonable level.

2 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

3 MR. HANDZEL: -- because I think, you

4 know, how many models of pumps do we have in the

5 database right now? I mean, you know --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Three thousand.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, and so --

8 MR. HUBER: The permutations are

9 endless.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, and that's all I'm

11 concerned about. I'm not disagreeing. I agree

12 that that's what we need to head towards. But how

13 do we make it manageable?

14 MR. ECKMAN: We deal with it on the HVAC

15 equipment where the inside coil and the outside

16 coil have 85 different --

17 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, what I'd like to

19 see if we can do, since I'm hearing that more

20 discussion is needed on --

21 MR. ECKMAN: On that part.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: -- on that part, I'd like
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1 to move the question on what seems to be a joint

2 proposal. I'm about to restate it.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I clarify is four4 year lead time from publication of final rule?

5 MR. ECKMAN: Yes.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Yes.

7 MR. ADIN: Can I ask a favor?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, yes.

9 MR. ADIN: Just before we move to a

10 vote, I'd like to consult very briefly with my

11 management, if you're moving in that direction.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: You want to wait until

13 after lunch?

14 MR. ADIN: No, I won't even need that

15 long.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. Just go do it.

17 MR. ADIN: Okay. Yeah, I know exactly

18 where they are.

19 MR. ECKMAN: Al's getting hungry.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: We're going to take

21 another - - just a very short break. Don't go any

22 --
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1 (Whereupon, the foregoing recessed

2 at 11:54 a.m., and resumed at

3 11:55 a.m.)

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas is making a request

5 that we vote after lunch.

6 MR. ECKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: He's got one legal

8 question to run past general -- I'll let you speak

9 for yourself.

10 MR. ADIN: Yeah, well, I mean, that's

11 basically it. There's the question that we need

12 to get resolved on the legal side with respect to

13 the proposal that's on the table. We just want to

14 make sure that legally we can actually do that

15 before we vote on it, so --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me just note that

17 we made really good progress and I appreciate both

18 caucuses being effective as a caucus. I

19 appreciate the consultation that's gone on.

20 Let's go to lunch and we'll resume at

21 1:00 and then I'll restate the proposal and see

22 where we stand and any additional information that
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1 comes forward when we return from lunch we'll of

2 course entertain that.

3 Let me also confirm that the rules we

4 set for ourselves, our ground rules specify that

5 we need two-thirds of members to be a caucus. We

6 have that. I have the -- we are -- we have a

7 quorum and so let's break for lunch and we'll

8 return at 1:00.

9 MR. FREEMAN: And lunch, the best place

10 to go for lunch is the basement.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

12 MR. ECKMAN: A big food court down

13 there.

14 MR. ECKMAN: How do we get there?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: You'll need your badge

16 and then we'll -- Jeremiah and others will be

17 letting people in and out of the doors when you

18 get off the elevator and get stuck in that

19 corridor.

20 MR. FREEMAN: 1:00, or what are we

21 shooting for?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: 1:00.
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1 MR. FREEMAN: 1:00.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Will this room be secure

3 I'm assuming?

4 MR. ADIN: This whole floor is basically

5 secure, so.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Okay, got you.

7 MR. ADIN: Yeah, you can leave things in

8 here. That's the advantage of having key codes on

9 the doors, so, you know.

10 (Whereupon, the foregoing recessed

11 at 12:02 p.m., and resumed at 1:10

12 p.m.)

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're just about

14 all here. Let's resume. So just before lunch, we

15 had a request to delay the vote that was scheduled

16 until after lunch. So that's what we're going to

17 proceed with now. We have a joint proposal that's

18 on the table. And again, appreciation to both of

19 the caucuses for working together effectively.

20 And this is what I have listed as the

21 key points in this agreement, that the parties,

22 the members present have agreed to TSL 2 which is
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1 PER 25 and that C-values are to be fixed at 25.0;

2 that is, they're not -- they're going to stay

3 there. They're fixed. There would be a four-year

4 lead time based on the publication date of the

5 final rule and this applies to all classes except

6 RSV. Yes, Gary?

7 MR. FERNSTROM: So Doug, this is Gary.

8 I don't know that it's necessarily correct to say

9 that C-values will be fixed at 25.0. They'll be

10 fixed such -- at a value such that --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Got you.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: -- we get 25.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that

14 clarification. I'm looking and the analytical

15 team agrees with you.

16 MR. ADIN: That's right.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Great.

18 MR. ECKMAN: We all understand that now.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me note also that we

20 have 14 members present including Doug Potts on

21 the line who's joined us, who we have one

22 abstention, Steve Rosenstock already sent a note
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1 that he would be abstaining from the votes today

2 as he is not here. So I'm about ready to call

3 this question. Are we ready to do this? Yes?

4 All those in favor of accepting the proposal that

5 I just elucidated, please --

6 MR. ADIN: Can I wait -- I'm sorry, just

7 one minute. I'm waiting from a response from --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, Lucas is waiting for

9 --

10 MR. ADIN: I apologize for that.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

12 MR. ADIN: Yeah. I did -- I will point

13 out that the legal question that I had brought up

14 earlier is resolved. It was just about the four15 year compliance period and that's the question

16 about that, so.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So you're waiting on an

18 additional bit of information?

19 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 MR. ADIN: But I don't -- yeah, sorry.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we'll put that
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1 on hold just for the moment.

2 MR. ECKMAN: The buildup.

3 MR. ADIN: Yeah, sorry.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Was there -- did you have

6 the -- is the RS-V one waiting on a separate vote

7 or --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't know -- no, I

9 didn't know what to do with RS-V. Let's talk

10 about that.

11 MR. ECKMAN: I think that we agreed that

12 it was going to be set equivalent to the MEI 40.

13 MR. HUBER: That's what I understood.

14 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

15 MR. ADIN: So that should be part of --

16 once we're voting on a separate part, it should be

17 part of this.

18 MR. HUBER: That should be part of it.

19 MR. ECKMAN: Should be part of it.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So Alison, restate

21 what you think -- what you just heard on RS-V for

22 RS-
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1 V.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Just as Tom said, that we

3 should set the C-values equivalent to MEI 40 in

4 the

5 EU.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Okay, and so would you put

8 that into the calculator so that we can run it and

9 make sure no problems are popping up?

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so we have --

11 Sarah's working on it and it has our stab at it.

12 So please do give us feedback if that's not

13 actually what it's doing, yeah, or I mean, not

14 that you can tell individually but if we get

15 feedback from multiple manufacturers, we can --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

17 MR. STARR: So we're going to include

18 this information on certification as part of that

19 vote or no?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I thought that

21 there was --

22 MR. ECKMAN: Take that up.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we need that --

2 to have -- I was thinking after we take the vote,

3 then we'll go and talk about the certification

4 stuff and the stuff that Joanna had raised, yeah,

5 yeah. Okay.

6 MR. ADIN: Sorry.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: That's okay. Let me --

8 let's just do -- I'm thinking about the agenda

9 items following this vote today and we made such

10 huge progress on the metric last time that I

11 thought we'd basically gotten to the point where

12 we had a shared understanding of what we were

13 doing with the metric.

14 And that's why I presume that when the

15 time is right, that you all would be prepared to

16 once again flash up on the screen all that

17 material and we can go through it to confirm.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean, I think

19 today maybe we can try to do the vote and discuss

20 the certification stuff and maybe we won't do the

21 metric and test procedure stuff until tomorrow if

22 everything else gets resolved.
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1 MR. ADIN: All right. Actually, Sarah,

2 we can begin. I apologize for that.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can vote. Let's

4 vote.

5 MR. ADIN: We're ready to vote.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: On reinforcements.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: We want to know where'd

8 you get the tan.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's nice outside.

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So we've confirmed we

12 have a quorum. We have 14 members present and

13 we're about to take the vote. I've called the

14 question. I've rearticulated the full package

15 which includes that RSV pumps will be listed as

16 the equivalent to MEI 40. That's a new part of the

17 proposal. So all those --

18 MR. HANDZEL: Could Ashley just

19 introduce herself so everybody knows her?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley, would you

21 introduce yourself?

22 MR. HANDZEL: Sorry, Al -- sorry, caught
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1 with my mouth full. But Al didn't know who she

2 is.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi, Al. I'm Ashley. I

4 work for DOE. I oversee the test procedures and

5 standards -- or test procedures and certification

6 enforcement type stuff coming out of the

7 department.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: And we might be taking

9 that up immediately. And Doug, will you all

10 please introduce yourself?

11 MR. RAWALD: Hi. I'm Doug Rawald. I'm

12 an attorney with the Office of General Counsel at

13 the Department of Energy. I work on enforcement.

14 So I came because I thought you were going to be

15 talking about that.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay, so I'm

17 calling the question now. All those in favor of

18 accepting the proposal as enumerated lengthily,

19 please raise your hand to signify aye. One, two,

20 I'm casting my eyes around the room. I see no

21 dissenting votes among members. So that means 14

22 votes. And Doug Potts on line, do you -- how do
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1 you wish to vote?

2 MR. POTTS: Yeah, this is Doug Potts. I

3 would like to vote yes.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so that's 14 votes

5 yes and one abstention. Congratulations, we've

6 now done something important.

7 (Applause.)

8 MR. BROOKMAN: This is really important.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: This is the most

10 important.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: This is really important

12 here. Okay, great. So thanks for that. That was

13 very, very good and we've worked now for many

14 meetings to get to this point. So

15 congratulations.

16 I especially appreciate the spirit of

17 collaboration and cooperation inside the caucuses,

18 the two major individual caucuses and between the

19 caucuses. Very nicely done. Okay, Meg?

20 MS. WALTNER: Just sorry, I have a

21 question on the vote count. How many members do

22 we have on the committee total?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: We have 14 members

2 present. We have 16 members total.

3 MS. WALTNER: It's 14 counting Doug on

4 the phone?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Fourteen includes Doug on

6 the phone.

7 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Because we're missing

9 today - - we're missing Dan Delaney, who is an

10 alternate for Howard Richardson, Regal Beloit.

11 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: And we're also missing

13 Steve Rosenstock.

14 MS. WALTNER: Okay, so it should be two

15 abstentions, right?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: There should be two

17 abstentions.

18 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absent.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Or one absent, one absent

21 and one abstention because Steve -- Steve wrote.

22 He said, I'd like to be included as an abstention
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1 on any votes.

2 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: But we haven't heard from

4 Howard Richardson.

5 MS. WALTNER: I see.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: He's absent.

7 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So how should we

9 begin this topic, since we have both Doug and

10 Ashley here, about ability to certify early or

11 voluntary certification and the data collection

12 effort and the stuff that we had begun to discuss?

13 Joanna, do you want to start in on that again or

14 do you want someone else to do that?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can try to -- maybe I

16 can -- so what -- so can someone explain to me I

17 guess what the questions and slash concerns maybe

18 are just since Doug and I haven't been here?

19 MS. MAUER: Yeah, this is Joanna. I can

20 try to restate I think the two things that we're

21 interested in.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
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1 MS. MAUER: The first is kind of the

2 ability for manufacturers voluntarily to certify

3 before the compliance date with the goal of

4 providing data for utility programs to use to

5 incentive extended products.

6 And the other is we think it'd be

7 valuable for -- again, for programs to have not

8 just in the certification database the PER levels

9 but some of the components that go into

10 calculating the PER.

11 So for example, you know, the PER is

12 going to be based on power at three or four

13 points, so having the actual values at those

14 points listed in the certification database in

15 addition to the actual PER value that's --

16 MR. RAWALD: Is PER the agreed upon

17 metric?

18 MS. MAUER: Yeah, sorry.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: And also, we should note

20 that this came up as an aspect of the original

21 proposal and a few of the manufacturers said, gee,

22 this is something we need to talk about.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So I think from

2 the department's perspective, the answer to the

3 question of can they voluntarily certify early, to

4 the extent DOE goes through a rulemaking and

5 establishes certification requirements, typically

6 the compliance with those certification

7 requirements, at least if we base it on what we've

8 done with other products, will be mapped up to

9 compliance with standards, at least the

10 requirement.

11 We always allow certification early. I

12 mean, they could submit data. As soon as we

13 finish the rule, we could develop the templates.

14 We could put them online and then if manufacturers

15 wanted to send in their data in, they could send

16 them in, you know, assuming that they are ready to

17 certify compliance early with the test procedure

18 that's required with the standard that's required.

19 They are well within their purview to do that.

20 Now, obviously we'd need to go through

21 some steps including completing a rulemaking to

22 contemplate the type of data they would submit to
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1 the department as part of their certification

2 report, which gets to your second question.

3 I think the answer is the department

4 collects a lot of different information on

5 different products. It doesn't just have to be

6 limited to the standard. If the committee were to

7 agree that it would be helpful as a whole for DOE

8 to collect certain data elements, I don't see why

9 DOE -- you couldn't recommend that to the

10 department to consider as part of a separate

11 rulemaking.

12 I don't think we're going to necessarily

13 -- we could talk about where we would put it, what

14 rule it would go into. But that being said, we'd

15 still have to go through the rulemaking and notice

16 and comment process to adopt it. But if the

17 committee wanted to talk about what data elements

18 we would be asking for, you know, you could.

19 MR. RAWALD: I guess I want to give the

20 manufacturers kind of a better idea of what we

21 collect so you can understand what we do for the

22 products.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

2 MR. HANDZEL: So, Mark Handzel, from

3 Xylem. So we've bene working through this

4 calculation process and supplied all sorts of data

5 to the consultants and, you know, it's basically

6 full load efficiency data as well as efficiency

7 data at a couple of other points, okay.

8 And I think on the pump side, which is

9 what we control, we have no problem reporting

10 that. And I would like -- I think we would like

11 to make are recommendation of how that table

12 should be structured so we know going in what

13 we're going to do and I think we know the

14 structure. We've been using it. We've been

15 seeing it.

16 But I guess Joanna's point is we've been

17 discussing a further extension of this rulemaking

18 into what we call extended product, which

19 incorporates a motor efficiency and a drive

20 efficiency.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

22 MR. HANDZEL: And so how -- you know,
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1 how we collect the data for that is something

2 that's a bigger, a little bit more onerous task

3 because we don't make all the motors. We make

4 some motors for some of our pumps. So we would

5 have, you know, the stuff we make, we control.

6 But you know, if you're going into other

7 products, the pump industry doesn't want the

8 responsibility for maintaining the database for

9 products we don't make. I guess that's -- at

10 least that's the way I feel and I think there

11 would be a fair amount of support from my fellow

12 manufacturers.

13 MR. RAWALD: Definitely a lot of layers

14 to that question.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, sorry, but --

16 MR. RAWALD: So I want to make sure we -

17 - I want to give you kind of I guess a very nuts

18 and bolts understanding of what we require for

19 reports and then that'll help you kind of

20 understand how we work them. And so, just for all

21 products we have what's called a template, at a

22 very basic level.
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1 A template's an Excel spreadsheet and it

2 has a line and it says here is the model number,

3 here is the characteristics that we're reporting

4 to DOE. This is its efficiency and this is a

5 couple other things about it. And so, it's a

6 simple, just plug in the number spreadsheet.

7 And so, and then also the second part of

8 that is also another page where the manufacturer

9 swears that their product is compliant. So you're

10 signing off saying, hey, my product complies with

11 what the requirements are under the law. So

12 that's the very basic broad what we're asking in a

13 report.

14 MR. ADIN: Can I ask a clarifying

15 question?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Certainly. Lucas?

17 MR. ADIN: Is your question or the issue

18 you're raising more about which data you would

19 actually have to report to DOE or which data you

20 need to have on hand to get the rating that you

21 report to DOE for the pump?

22 MR. HANDZEL: So I guess I'm partially
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1 responding to Joanna's request because I

2 understand you want to be able to use it for the

3 ACEEE, you know, performance standard. And it's

4 based on extended product. So it needs the

5 efficiencies of those other components to the

6 extended product system.

7 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. But I think

8 that's -- I mean, you're going to have to certify.

9 I mean, if you're selling a pump with a

10 motor, that pump that you're certifying or pump

11 motor and drive, right, isn't this metric that

12 we're developing, it's providing a way to certify

13 that either through tests or through using the

14 default values, I guess I see that as somewhat of

15 a separate question because you're going to have

16 to certify those products regardless of whether

17 you just certified PER or --

18 MR. RAWALD: So everything we've done is

19 motor and pump at this point.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So I don't think

21 Joanna's asking for anything that you wouldn't be

22 probably required to certify, right. Like even if
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1 you use the default motor loss things that we've

2 been talking about, you would have to do that

3 calculation and add it to your pump loss in order

4 to certify your pump.

5 MR. HANDZEL: But again, we've just been

6 talking about them. So we've never agreed on any

7 of that, so.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, I know. So,

9 agreed, so that's -- I think that's a separate

10 question, right, like I don't think they're going

11 to -- I don't really think they're asking for

12 something that would be different from what you --

13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. I just want to know

14 what they're asking for. I guess that's my --

15 that's my point.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Did you have a question

19 or comment?

20 MR. RAWALD: But it does sound like some

21 of what you're getting at is the values are used

22 to arrive at the final number, which is the final
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1 number is definitely what we're going to be

2 requiring you to report at some point, right?

3 And so, how you - what those individual

4 numbers are and how you determine those are test

5 procedure questions, right. Is that -- am I --

6 MS. MAUER: In part.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Test procedure before

8 calculation.

9 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so, whether we

10 would actually have a spot on the spreadsheet for

11 you to indicate those numbers as well, you know,

12 is something we could discuss further in a future

13 rulemaking on certification.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: And Ashley, asking you

15 are there other products that list more data

16 elements such as are being suggested by Joanna and

17 others?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? There are?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Some of them are simply
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1 just the rated metric which in this case would be

2 PER. Others are much more, you know, intensive in

3 terms of like refrigerators, we have 31 things

4 that they report. So like I said, I think --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it voluntary or

6 mandatory?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's mandatory.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Mandatory.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So like I said, if the

10 committee comes up with a list of things that DOE

11 should consider as part of, you know, their

12 discussions here, I think that would be very

13 helpful in terms of -- but we would definitely ask

14 for PER, which if you wanted to put stuff about

15 pump losses and other types of things in there,

16 you could as well.

17 MR. RAWALD: Any other questions? So as

18 far as the early certification goes, a lot of that

19 will be driven by just technical logistical

20 considerations, right.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

22 MR. RAWALD: Because we have to develop
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1 a template. We have to post it online. People

2 have to fill it out and submit it. We of course

3 expect people would be filling it out and

4 submitting it at least some time before the

5 compliance date because they'd want to get ahead

6 of the curve.

7 The question is how far ahead would you

8 want to go. And we would of course then need to

9 get things into motion earlier to get that

10 happening. We need to have a rulemaking.

11 We'd need to have a template completed

12 and we'd need to have all this stuff done. So you

13 need to think about how far ahead of the curve

14 would you really want to be for that because

15 routinely we're not getting that far ahead of the

16 curve.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So --

18 MS. WALTNER: Meg.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, please.

20 MS. WALTNER: When you say you need a

21 rulemaking, are you saying we need a separate

22 certification rulemaking outside of the test
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1 procedure?

2 MR. HANDZEL: We talked about that at

3 the last meeting, that that was the plan.

4 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

5 MR. RAWALD: The typical process is --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We've done it both ways.

7 MR. RAWALD: Right.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think the answer is

9 we don't -- we need a separate rulemaking other

10 than those that you negotiated on.

11 MS. WALTNER: Right.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It may look -- be in the

13 form of I think right now what we have been

14 considering to date is three separate ones.

15 That's not to say they have to be that way.

16 MS. WALTNER: So the test procedure,

17 standards --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: and certification, yeah.

19 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we've done -- but

21 we've combined elements of those amongst each

22 other. It's no real requirement that they be done
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1 that way.

2 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

3 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman. Speaking

4 logistically of this, if we come up with a term

5 sheet that lists the template elements that we can

6 agree to and the levels which we've already agreed

7 to, you can parse that into whatever --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't matter.

9 MR. ECKMAN: -- regulatory process you

10 need.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

12 MR. ECKMAN: So we just give you the

13 content and you can figure out the process.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Tom. That's

16 helpful.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: And there are probably

18 some nuances in the certs that we would need to

19 flush out anyway. And we would probably do that

20 with the test procedure as well and kind of would

21 move along as a whole package even if it's three

22 separate rules.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug

2 Rawald. A certification usually includes -- a

3 rule includes two things. It includes both the

4 elementary nature of the report but also the

5 sampling plan to get to your certification value.

6 And so, if we have those two pieces, then there

7 would be no reason why we could at least consider

8 moving forward with establishing a rule regarding

9 that.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, but we never spent

11 any time talking about a sampling plan.

12 MR. RAWALD: Right.

13 MR. HANDZEL: So obviously it's

14 something we need to learn a bit more about from

15 the manufacturers' perspective. This is all Greek

16 to us. We don't know anything about this.

17 MR. RAWALD: Right, because we need to

18 have at least some sort of idea of what the

19 minimum sample would be to be representative of

20 the entire class or the model that you're saying

21 certified is compliant. So that's a typical part

22 of our certification provisions.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: So would the DOE make a

2 recommendation on that or how do you recommend it?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So for all of our

4 products, except for motors -- they're a little

5 special -- and there's a couple of other nuances.

6 But for most of our products, we say it

7 has to be a sample size of two or more and we

8 leave it to the manufacturers' discretion as to

9 how many more or if they only want two, depending

10 on the variability or whatever they'd like to do

11 or what they typically do, for purely testing

12 purposes.

13 MR. ADIN: And just to clarify, that's

14 something unique to each model. So each model

15 that is being assigned a rating has to be based on

16 that testing sample of these units.

17 MR. ECKMAN: Basic model.

18 MR. ADIN: Basic model, right.

19 MR. BOTELER: If you have 3,000 basic

20 models, then you have to do two or more of each.

21 MR. HANDZEL: It's going to be an

22 interesting discussion for us because most of us
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1 do certification. You know, I don't think many of

2 us do it based on multiple units.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you know, you guys

4 would know this better than we do. We had a lot

5 of feedback that there is enough variability in

6 either of the test or the procedure itself or lab

7 to lab variability that a rated value shouldn't be

8 based upon a value of a single test.

9 Now, if you have evidence that suggests

10 that's not true for pumps, that's not to say DOE

11 couldn't consider a sample size of one or

12 something different. You know, for other things

13 we have larger sample sizes. It just really

14 depends.

15 MR. RAWALD: Right, and I guess like

16 distribution transformers, we have a sample size

17 as low as one if you only produce one in a six18 month period. So if you produce five or more,

19 then it has to be at least five. So it just

20 depends on --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: There are some nuances

22 here.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Right. There's a lot of

2 variability in the rules and how they're set up to

3 be product-oriented. So there's some more

4 discussion possible. And along with the number of

5 samples required, there's also statistics that are

6 kind of in play.

7 You know, what the actual statistical

8 curve will look like based upon how you think your

9 product will flow. So some will have more narrow

10 and some will have more broad kind of statistical

11 sampling provisions.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: It's stuck in my brain

13 that Tom clarified that it was basic models for

14 which -- we should delve into that a little bit,

15 right?

16 MR. HUBER: Everybody doesn't agree

17 about basic.

18 MR. ECKMAN: Basic --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Tom. Go ahead.

20 MR. ECKMAN: I'll let these folks define

21 basic models in terms of their technical meaning

22 at the DOE. But broadly speaking, it's a group of
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1 products that you rate as a group and a basic

2 model represents that entire group and its

3 efficiency is the lowest of that entire group.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

5 MR. HUBER: The lowest.

6 MR. ECKMAN: The lowest of that entire

7 group.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the least efficient.

9 So we allow you at your discretion to group

10 individual models into what we call a basic model

11 which is a group of individual models. The

12 efficiency, the certified ranking, so that

13 certified PER value and the one you use for

14 representations would have to be the same for all

15 the individuals in that basic model.

16 But it allows you to reduce your test

17 burden because you only have to test certain

18 number of units per basic model. You don't

19 actually have to test a certain number of units

20 per model.

21 So but it's a risk because if DOE were

22 to test and we find there's an issue with one of
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1 those individual models such that that model's

2 found to be not meeting our standards for whatever

3 reason, we would apply it across the board. It

4 would be that basic model is found to be

5 noncompliant.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al?

7 MR. HUBER: Not to speak for my

8 technical people, but we're informed I am not an

9 engineer. I am not an engineer. We basically

10 have five different types of pumps.

11 Generally each model would be -- for

12 instance, I'll give you an example. In an end13 suction pump, it may be a 2 x 1.5 x 7 or whatever,

14 right, that you're considering a model.

15 MR. ECKMAN: A basic model.

16 MR. HUBER: But we're only testing --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: That's what we're

18 considering an individual model.

19 MR. ECKMAN: That's a model.

20 MR. HUBER: That's a what?

21 MR. RAWALD: It's like a depends size.

22 MR. HUBER: Wait a minute, wait a
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1 minute, wait a minute. We've got --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Sorry, go ahead, Al.

3 MR. HUBER: What?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: So like I think, you

5 know, when you reported us, you know, each line of

6 the database --

7 MR. HUBER: That was the model.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: -- was what we would

9 think of as an individual model. And so, what

10 Ashley is talking about is whether you would want

11 to, you know, link some of those together.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Consolidate that

13 further.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Establish a cohort or

15 something like that.

16 MS. WIDDER: Right, so there'd be like

17 individual - like you -- there's in our calculator

18 there's that line for model number and then a

19 basic model, if you were to do the grouping

20 provision, you would list the individual model

21 numbers that are certified under that basic model.

22 But then, all of those pump models would
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1 have to have the same rating. And so, if one was

2 more efficient, you couldn't say that.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me clarify. And

4 would they -- would all of those pump models that

5 would be a part of that basic model, would they in

6 addition to the efficiency rating, would they need

7 to have the same pump characteristics?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: They have to have

9 essentially identical characteristics. That's a

10 legal term.

11 MR. RAWALD: That affects --

12 MR. ECKMAN: That affects efficiency.

13 MR. RAWALD: Right, the efficiency

14 calculation. Otherwise --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Okay, I actually

16 saw Charlie first.

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: I was going to ask if

18 somebody could provide an example. Charlie, this

19 is Charlie Cappellino, an example scenario maybe

20 in a parallel kind of product area that might shed

21 some light.

22 MR. BOTELER: Well --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Robert?

2 MR. RAWALD: I don't want to go into

3 motors because motors are so different than

4 everything else. So I think --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: How about refrigerators?

6 That's an easy one.

7 MR. RAWALD: It could be very simple

8 with refrigerators or faucets or those kinds of

9 things. So if you have a black, beige and a

10 stainless steel fridge, those are all the same.

11 Those are all different model numbers to the

12 manufacturer but they're all the same basic model.

13 So that's it a very simple, simple

14 level, all the variation in individual models that

15 make the same basic model because a color does not

16 affect the energy consumption at all or the energy

17 efficiency. So the manufacturer had to put a

18 number on those but they're all the same basic

19 models.

20 MR. ARMSTRONG: So another example would

21 be like for air conditioners, sometimes they use

22 slightly different -- or they use different
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1 compressor suppliers or different fan motor

2 suppliers or something like that. And changing

3 them out, they're generally the same type. They

4 have generally the same curves.

5 But and they get generally the same

6 results for their rated values but they're not

7 identical. They're slightly different components.

8 They were sourced a little differently

9 but they choose to group those models the same

10 because at the end of the day their rated values

11 that they send in to DOE are the same and they

12 don't want to test all those discrete different

13 versions that they may have. That's like the

14 simpler example.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So I think like if you

16 had, you know, two different types of impeller

17 materials that you wanted to certify at the same

18 rating, that would be the same model.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Right, no, those would be

20 the same geometry. So those would -- yeah, they

21 produce the same performance.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I suspect for your
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1 different geometries, you probably don't --

2 MR. HANDZEL: Right. So for example,

3 let's just look at pictures. So that's a type of

4 pump. That's end-suction, frame-mount. My company

5 makes 26 different models.

6 Okay, that means they have different

7 impeller, or flanges connections and different

8 impellers. But they we also sell those in three

9 different speeds, okay. And as you guys know,

10 it's the same pump basically. It's just got a

11 different driver on the motor side.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so --

13 MR. TOWSLEY: Different mechanic seals.

14 MR. HANDZEL: And it could be a

15 different mechanical seal.

16 MR. TOWSLEY: A different color.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Well, it could be. You

18 know, so I guess -- well yes, but I'm not going to

19 certify it under my different brand because it's

20 the same product.

21 MR. TOWSLEY: So how many basic models

22 is that then?
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Well, that's what I'm

2 asking.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So on the speed front, I

4 just want to say that since you guys want

5 different equipment classes by speed, you would

6 almost definitely have to certify those separately

7 because that's how you guys wanted. If we had

8 just set one standard regardless of speed, you

9 could obviously --

10 MR. RAWALD: Yeah, we could be

11 definitive on that. A basic model cannot be a

12 different class. So a basic model can only exist

13 within on product class. And so, if it's a

14 different product class for different speeds,

15 they're different basic models. That's just a --

16 that's a rule that we have hard and fast.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so and we only do

18 two speeds. So if you make it in your third

19 speed, then that's different. But I think maybe

20 the basic model will come into play not as much on

21 your bare pumps necessarily as when we're doing

22 the pump motor control configurations, so.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Well, I think it will be on

2 bare pumps a little bit. But I think like the

3 other examples you gave might be candidates for a

4 grouping, like different mechanical seals.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh.

6 MS. WIDDER: But different flange sizes,

7 like the fundamental different geometries would

8 probably I would think want to be different basic

9 models.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: If you have different

11 flows - - if you're going to have a different BEP

12 rate --

13 MS. WIDDER: Right.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: -- you would need to have

15 a different model I think.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr?

17 MR. STARR: Well, this is kind of a

18 question for Mark more. Those 26 models, how much

19 is the efficiency differ in those 26 models?

20 MR. HUBER: Oh, pretty good.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Significantly.

22 MR. STARR: Five percent for a six
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1 speed?

2 MR. HANDZEL: No, 20 percent.

3 MR. HUBER: Twenty percent.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: So you're talking about a

5 range of sizes basically, right?

6 MR. HANDZEL: Oh yeah, 26 different

7 sizes for this.

8 MR. HUBER: Yeah, it varies with the

9 size.

10 MR. HANDZEL: But obviously, you know,

11 within each of those sizes, you know, any of those

12 pumps could take five to six different motor horse

13 powers.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so and --

15 MR. HANDZEL: But we did everything

16 based on the full runner impeller.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so if you chose to

18 do them with the nominal values across the boards,

19 then that would decrease them all to the nominal

20 values, right?

21 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, or we might have
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1 tests. You know, we haven't really talked about

2 this in the test procedure yet. But it might be

3 that we have rules for sizing the motor and that

4 you only have to certify with only one motor size,

5 for example. So that's stuff that hasn't really

6 been ironed out yet, but --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Will you state that

9 again? Will you repeat that about nominal values?

10 I'm not sure they got that.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, so my under --

12 sorry, I haven't been here the whole time. But my

13 understanding of this is at least the way that

14 we've discussed structuring the integrated metric

15 is that you have the option to do the full test or

16 you have the option to do the full pumps test or

17 the pumps curves and take them and then obviously

18 they can be paired with different sizes of motors

19 as well as different motor efficiencies and

20 different drives.

21 So we've given them options for nominal

22 values although we haven't discussed a lot of the
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1 details of what that might be.

2 But nominal values for motors, nominal

3 values for drives, and so if you kept everything

4 at their nominal values and you didn't want to

5 claim the higher PER values that you might get

6 from higher efficiency motors and more efficient

7 drive systems, you could keep them all within the

8 same basic model.

9 That being said, if you wanted to market

10 higher efficiency drives and motors, then you

11 would separate them out as different basic models.

12 It just depends.

13 MR. BOTELER: And you could label that -

14 - this is Rob Boteler. You could label that to

15 the higher level, the higher PER.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: As long as you certify

17 it as a separate base model, yes, absolutely.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Al Huber?

19 MR. BOTELER: As a separate basic model.

20 MR. HUBER: I want to make sure that

21 we're clear.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that's so -- that
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1 being said, that's how our rule -- we have no

2 rules for pumps, right? That's what we're

3 discussing, right?

4 MR. HANDZEL: Right. We're kind of

5 helping for a rule right here while we're walking

6 through it.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is how our rules

8 for other products work though, just generally.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

10 MR. HUBER: We want to make sure we're

11 clear here because if we test --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're aware.

13 MR. HUBER: We have always said that

14 we're testing at full diameter impeller and

15 everybody in this room is aware and that's what

16 we're going to certify.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

18 MR. ADIN: Right.

19 MR. HUBER: So if you take one that's

20 been trimmed by two inches --

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, no.

22 MR. ADIN: No, we only test it when you
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1 --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: You would have to select

3 --

4 MR. ADIN: Right.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

6 MR. HUBER: You'll only select at full

7 diameter. Okay.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

9 MR. ADIN: It has to be based on what

10 you actually certified.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

12 MR. HUBER: Okay, just wanted to make

13 sure.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Well, so but just now --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're not that bad.

16 MR. HANDZEL: -- as we start to look at

17 the extended database, so we're talking full

18 runner impeller, you know, so we're talking, you

19 know, you know, a full -- the largest horsepower

20 that that pump can take typically, you know.

21 So I mean, we're starting to close in,

22 which is what I was trying to get to about what
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1 data is going to be necessary to do your extended

2 product calculation.

3 MS. MAUER: Yeah, and this is Joanna. I

4 think we were just talking about for the pumps

5 that you're certifying, having these additional

6 columns of data that you're already generating to

7 come up with the PER.

8 MS. WIDDER: I think what -- so Joanna,

9 correct me if I'm wrong. I think what they're

10 asking for is, like, in the calculator we have for

11 a constant load application 75 percent of BEP

12 flow, a hundred percent of BEP flow and 110

13 percent of BEP flow, which is like what's in the

14 EU in the MEI calculation.

15 And we've discussed a way to have a

16 weighted average of those values to result in a

17 single metric. And I think what Joanna is looking

18 for is like in the EU reporting or including in

19 the database in some format all three of those.

20 MR. HUBER: She wants four.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: I think that's the

22 variable load.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Okay, for variable load,

2 there's four. So depending on if you were a pump

3 that applied the PER variable load, the variable

4 load PER or we're a pump that applied a constant

5 load PER, it would be three or four as applicable.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: But you would need each

7 of those points to create your certification to

8 DOE anyway, yeah.

9 MR. HUBER: We understand that.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

11 MR. HUBER: I want to make sure that

12 it's clear. What we had proposed to submit or

13 what we're thinking about having to submit are

14 those pump values or efficiency values at those

15 points. We don't need to submit the motor. We

16 don't need to submit the control because you

17 already have it to a standard basically.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the answer is yes and

19 no. I think it becomes twofold. One is you're

20 going to have to submit PER. It is the metric

21 that you agreed to, period. So you're going to

22 have to do the calculation with the nominal
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1 values, right, and define your PER, whatever your

2 certified rating is for each basic model that you

3 want to distribute and in commerce.

4 That being said, if you want to market

5 for utility-type incentive reasons or others,

6 higher PER values based on motor efficiency gains

7 or drive efficiency gains, you are well within

8 your right to do so. But you need to certify

9 those as well.

10 So those wouldn't just be the nominal

11 values, right. But you'd have to calculate your

12 PER accordingly based on whatever you -- whatever

13 the test procedure says that you're allowed to

14 use. But it's your choice how you do it.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: So just to clarify

17 that, so we would do that via the calculator but

18 not necessarily have to submit --

19 MR. ADIN: That'd be -- the way in which

20 you determine what that PER is that you certify,

21 that's part of the test procedure.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Sorry?

2 MR. ADIN: So, the test procedure.

3 That'll be part of the DOE test procedure. So

4 there will be a method in there for getting some

5 tested values to that rated value.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: So, still not clear

8 that Al's question was answered in terms of if you

9 want to market a pump, bare pump with a specific

10 motor and a specific drive, how you -- how you

11 qualify that. I mean, do you --

12 MR. ADIN: Is the question about whether

13 you have to certify the motor and drive efficiency

14 or I'm not sure what the differences between --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the answer of how it

16 comes into effect with whatever method DOE ends up

17 proposing after comment ultimately adopts in the

18 test procedure. I mean, that method is going to

19 define either how you calculate or how you test,

20 how you arrive at your PER values.

21 MS. WIDDER: And we've discussed this in

22 previous meetings. I was going to try and write
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1 the PEI calculation up here but nobody can see it

2 here.

3 But when pump -- when Joanna's talking

4 about the pump input power values at 75, 100 and

5 110 percent of BEP flow, we're talking about input

6 power to the pump, inclusive of the motor or drive

7 if it's part of the pump, just like we've been

8 talking about as the metric construction for

9 several meetings where that input power to the

10 pump is the shaft input power plus the motor

11 losses.

12 And so, even if you have a bare pump,

13 you have your shaft input power that came from the

14 40.6 test plus the associated motor loss to get

15 that input power to the pump system value and then

16 that's weighted to come up with the PER for your

17 pump.

18 And so, I think what Joanna's looking

19 for is the input power to the pump inclusive of

20 motor losses and the motor losses that we've been

21 discussing have come from a nominal motor

22 efficiency that could be looked up in the CFR if
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1 you're a bare pump. It could also come from a

2 nominal full load efficiency if you sell the pump

3 with a motor. Those are the two main methods that

4 we've discussed.

5 So you can -- you could choose to always

6 use the CFR values, the lowest common denominator,

7 and not do a higher efficiency motor even if you

8 sold your pump with the motor but then you can't

9 make representations about the advantage of using

10 a more efficient motor. But either way, that data

11 was going to be part of the PEI calculation as

12 we've discussed it so far. Does that sound

13 familiar to everyone? Okay.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

15 MR. HUBER: A couple of questions. One

16 of them -- the first one is if I use a motor that

17 is better or is equal to, I can do it by

18 calculation, correct?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Mm-hmm. (Affirmative.)

20 MR. HUBER: But I'll only be able to

21 certify to the lowest -- basically the lowest

22 thing, right?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: No, you can choose.

2 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I mean --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

4 MR. HUBER: If I do calculations, I can

5 calculate whatever the motor manufacturer tells me

6 his efficiency is?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Mm-hmm. (Affirmative.)

8 MR. HUBER: Okay.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, you can.

10 MR. HUBER: Now, the second point I want

11 to make is when you go in an extended product, and

12 this is something I think we need, we've got to

13 address, is that if you use too high -- since

14 there is no published data on controls, there is

15 no published data, and you decide to use -- we

16 started out with one and we know that's not going

17 to work because I will never get a -- and use it

18 all the way across the board, I will never get one

19 to pass.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Right, because then

21 they'll be able to reach what you calculate.

22 MR. HUBER: No, yeah, even if I test it,
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1 I can't get to where you calculated. So somehow

2 we're going to have to address that.

3 MR. HANDZEL: A way to come off of the

4 full level, yeah.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: I think that's something

6 --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is --

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think we want to

9 talk about --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Really what you're

11 talking about is the test procedure.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's how you determine

14 that

15 --

16 MR. HUBER: Yeah, no.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: In our world, in DOE's

18 world, it's purely the method of test.

19 MR. HANDZEL: But the calculation we're

20 doing is not -- cannot be duplicated in a test

21 stand unfortunately.

22 MR. HUBER: The data is not available.
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1 That's what we're trying to tell you. The data

2 for controls is not available. And if you

3 arbitrarily use a certain number and it's wrong --

4 MR. HANDZEL: And we can't -- yeah.

5 MR. HUBER: We may not even be able even

6 by test to meet your standard.

7 MR. ADIN: So the test procedure may

8 need to address that issue.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So just take a step back

10 for a second. Our test procedures provide two

11 things. One is methods we're actually testing a

12 pump when it's on a stand but they also provide

13 methods for getting to the pump's efficiency from

14 calculations.

15 So when we talk about test procedures,

16 we're talking about them more broadly. And they

17 encompass both, you know, testing on a stand as

18 well as any calculations that may be done in lieu

19 of testing on a stand.

20 So that's where I think number two comes

21 in because the calculations and determining what

22 the appropriateness of those values, you know,
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1 should be for both motors and drive components

2 that you would then add to your pump testing on a

3 stand results to get your final PER number are I

4 think what's the issue here.

5 MS. WIDDER: So the other thing that

6 I'll say with regard to why it's not important

7 from the standard perspective is because back to

8 the slides that I think we discussed when Alison

9 was presenting the NIA was when we're setting the

10 standard, we're only assuming that you can improve

11 the pump. And so, we're always assuming the

12 minimally efficient motor and minimally -- and no

13 drive, so uncontrolled.

14 And so what's that -- oh, sorry, thought

15 you were just talking to me. So the -- if your

16 pump has a PEI less than one, it passes since the

17 standard's on the bottom and your pump PER is on

18 the top and because a drive, as we all understand,

19 will decrease the energy use of the pump so

20 dramatically, you will always be far less than one

21 because you have an uncontrolled pump on the

22 bottom. And so, you will always pass with a
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1 drive, always.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, let's not go that

3 far.

4 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

5 MR. ADIN: So and there are actually

6 kind of two different questions. I mean, one is

7 comparison with the standard for a given pump,

8 does that pump actually meet the standard and then

9 the other question is, is it -- if a test was run

10 on a given pump, is the rating at least as good as

11 what it was coming out of the calculation, right?

12 So is the rating valid and does it meet the

13 standard.

14 MR. HANDZEL: So Ashley just said that

15 we should be able to calculate the PER value for

16 our pumps.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well --

18 MR. HANDZEL: We can't calculate the PER

19 value for our pumps. We have to test. You know,

20 we come up with a design --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no. I said you

22 should be able -- you should be able to calculate
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1 the PER values of your pumps based -- that's what

2 we've done for most of these negotiations, right?

3 You -- and by PER I mean you test the pump part,

4 right?

5 MR. HANDZEL: But it's based on the

6 performance data we tested.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

8 MR. HANDZEL: All right, just wanted to

9 make sure.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: You take the pump part

11 test, right, but you don't necessarily test the

12 system. In other words, you're not doing, for

13 lack of a better term, a wire to water, or wire to

14 water test, right?

15 MR. HANDZEL: But when we do it with a

16 motor and a drive, we're essentially doing a wire

17 to water test.

18 MR. HUBER: It is a wire to water.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: You could. You could,

20 right. So I think that's one option. But another

21 option that we've talked about here, you guys have

22 mostly talked about --
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1 MR. HANDZEL: But we could take our

2 tested performance data --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: From the pump.

4 MR. HANDZEL: From the pump with Rob's

5 performance data from his motor and the drive's

6 performance data from the drive manufacturer and

7 estimate a wire to water value.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, so I think that's

9 --

10 MR. HANDZEL: But that's what we're

11 concerned about because we don't have partial load

12 data on the motor and the drive to do a factual

13 calculation. We would be estimating a calculation

14 that we would probably never be able to duplicate

15 on a test stand.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So you're

17 worried about coming up -- confirm if this is

18 correct. But you're worried about using some type

19 of calculation method that used either -- uses

20 nominal values or uses estimations of component

21 performance in addition to your pump test data to

22 come up with your PER and then DOE doing the full
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1 wire to water test and being held to that,

2 correct?

3 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, correct.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it's fair to

5 say, you know, typically what we try to do, at

6 least in most of ours, is emulate what you have

7 done. So in other words, if you've gone through

8 the -- I don't think we should come up with values

9 -- we should come up with methods of calculation

10 that are for the most part equitable.

11 We try to do that. So we -- you know,

12 it is our charge when we come up with the test

13 method and we come up with some type of

14 calculation method for estimating these nominal

15 values from the other components that you may not

16 have readily available data for, it is our charge

17 to get equitable results. But that being said, I

18 don't see us artificially holding you to something

19 that's out of your control.

20 MR. RAWALD: Right, I guess from a --

21 this is Doug Rawald -- from a certification point

22 of view, this thinking, what we might consider
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1 doing, would be you certify what the PER value is

2 and then you say I arrived at it by --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: X or Y.

4 MR. RAWALD: By doing this method and

5 then when we tested it, we'd say, oh, when Mark

6 gave us his value, he only tested the bare pump

7 and then he used these nominal values. So we'll

8 test the bare pump and plug in the nominal values.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Right, you would do the

10 same thing that we would do in the calculation.

11 MR. RAWALD: Right.

12 MR. ADIN: And to the extent when you

13 include --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is something we

15 would consider here, yeah.

16 MR. ADIN: Right. To the extent we need

17 to include something in the certification report

18 that indicates how you did it, we do this for some

19 other products where it's necessary where we

20 couldn't necessarily tell. You check a box that

21 says this is how I obtained this rating so that we

22 know.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

2 MR. ADIN: Yeah, okay.

3 MR. RAWALD: The problem would be for

4 the person that didn't certify, that was just out

5 there operating absent the law and we bought their

6 part and tested it. Well, then we would probably

7 not get the result they want, so it would be to

8 your benefit to certify so we knew how you got

9 there, so.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: In a lot of different

11 ways. Right, so I think that's --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?

13 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. It seems

14 to me we're making this more complicated than it

15 needs to be. It looks like there are three cases.

16 You use the pump performance value and

17 the default values DOE supplies for the associated

18 motor and drive if you have one and there's no

19 question about that because you've tested the pump

20 and you've used the approved default values. So

21 you're okay.

22 You may want to claim better
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1 performance. And if you do, you may use an

2 alternative method of determining performance to

3 supply the report and that would be tested. And

4 if you test it, the test procedure may call for

5 you needing to test, you know, two such products

6 or whatever they come up with. But the

7 alternative is test it and report that.

8 Either way, you're bound to have your

9 product perform as represented if tested. In the

10 former case, the pump was tested and these factors

11 were used and that's the standard. In the latter

12 case, the whole thing was tested and that's the

13 standard.

14 MR. BOTELER: Yeah, I think what Mark's

15 worried about is when we supply you the motor

16 data, we're giving you the partial load points at

17 assigned weight and power and then you put it into

18 your system and you test it with the variable

19 frequency drive and the motor loses one or two

20 bands of efficiency as well as the losses from the

21 drive and that's to Ashley's point of a nominal

22 value that takes that into account, right?
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, but this is Gary

2 again. The point of confusion here is you're

3 suggesting, Rob, that some report is going to be

4 made based on your representation of motor

5 performance and motor drive performance. And I

6 don't think that's part of the process.

7 Either the default values are used or

8 the product is tested as shipped and its

9 performance is determined. There isn't some in10 between where they're going to be relying on your

11 representation.

12 MR. BOTELER: So if they -- this is Rob

13 again. So if they ship an extended product, they

14 would then always need to test it.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's your position?

17 MR. FERNSTROM: That's my understanding,

18 either that or they need to use the default values

19 that the --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's different, right?

21 MR. FERNSTROM: -- you know, DOE and its

22 consultant has derived.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: The default values, yes.

2 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna, or there's a

3 third option, right, of using certified --

4 certified motor data, for example, but that's more

5 efficient than the --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think from DOE's

7 perspective, we were looking at this whole thing

8 as defining this is the test procedure. I mean,

9 the three aspects you're talking about from DOE's

10 point of view and one is, you know, the full test.

11 Two is testing pump, calculating --

12 MR. RAWALD: When you say full test, you

13 mean a full test of the full system?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Wire to water, yes, full

15 system test. Second would be calculating --

16 testing the pump and then calculating with nominal

17 and that would -- nominal drive and motor and then

18 the third option for consideration, I'm not sure

19 where DOE -- DOE hasn't kind of formulated its

20 thoughts here fully, but would be some alternative

21 calculation method that would allow you to kind of

22 get the gains from higher efficiency motors, more
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1 efficient drive systems and then pair that with

2 your pump test data.

3 So we see that as basically defining as

4 a straw man the what we call test procedure role.

5 MR. ECKMAN: So in that case, that

6 latter case is using certified values for other

7 components in the calculation.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So --

9 MR. RAWALD: So it's a second set of

10 defaults.

11 MR. ECKMAN: Instead of the minimal

12 default -- minimum compliance defaults.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do you mean by

14 certified values? Do you mean the ones they send

15 in to DOE?

16 MR. ECKMAN: Certified motor values that

17 --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: They certify nominal

19 now.

20 MR. ECKMAN: Nominal values.

21 MR. BOTELER: So if you're certifying

22 the motor value on the VFD, then you'd have to
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1 test it at the points -- whatever the load points

2 and the speed points were with that VFD in order

3 to have an accurate data.

4 MR. HANDZEL: So yeah.

5 MR. BOTELER: So and you're talking

6 about, you know, full temperature. You're talking

7 about a six or seven hour test, talking about a

8 lot of money, a lot of testing, a lot of test

9 data.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the fourth option

11 that we have for -- that brings up a fourth

12 option. Like I said, DOE hasn't flushed out its

13 considerations here yet. But a fourth option that

14 we do for some other products, including motors,

15 is what we call an AEDM and it allows you

16 basically to simulate PER values for the system as

17 a whole.

18 It's purely theoretical-based. It's

19 model- based. Manufacturers may have their own

20 model. It's not a DOE-supplied model and I'm not

21 saying that that's something -- you know, DOE

22 doesn't have an opinion right now in terms of one,
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1 two, three, four I don't think outside of what

2 we've already discussed some of the details here.

3 But that is something, a tool that we

4 utilize for other products where there's either a

5 proliferation of basic models based on all the

6 different configurations and unique designs that

7 they offer for customers or a high test burden.

8 MR. BOTELER: How does DOE handle walk9 in freezers? Do you have three components there?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Next to motor -- next to

11 motors, you bring up --

12 MR. BOTELER: Not a good one, huh? You

13 have three components there though. You have the

14 refrigeration, doors and panels.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We regulate the

16 components separately. That's the easiest way to

17 put that one, so.

18 MR. BOTELER: For the refrigeration --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, for the

20 refrigeration system, we do what I just explained.

21 So we have a full test for the refrigeration

22 system. We have a test for like the evaporator
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1 side where you match it with a nominal condenser.

2 We have another way around where you

3 have a test for the condenser side and you match

4 it with a nominal evaporator for the people in the

5 marketplace that don't make the other parts and

6 don't know how they're going to get installed.

7 And then we have an AEDM for the system as a

8 whole. So those are the four different ways --

9 MR. BOTELER: An AEDM that's actually a

10 DOE

11 AEDM.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So no, we have AEDM

13 regulations which say there are certain

14 requirements that a manufacturer simulation have

15 to meet, similar to what we do in motors. There's

16 no such thing as a DOE model for anything.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

18 MR. HUBER: Yeah, one of the problems we

19 face that's not so much on motors because you

20 regulate motors.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We try.

22 MR. HUBER: But on controls, what you do
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1 not -- what you do not regulate --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Rob yells at me a lot.

3 MR. HUBER: And we get a -- you know, we

4 get a customer who, you know, I may furnish an ABB

5 or I may furnish a Snyder, I may furnish -- you

6 know, there's, you know, Eaton or Cutler Hammer or

7 all kind of different VFDs out there.

8 I don't want to have to go out as a

9 manufacturer if I'm selling an extended product

10 and certify every possible VFD that could possibly

11 go on one model of a pump.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

13 MR. HUBER: Because then you've got to

14 do it for every model. So how do we --

15 MR. ADIN: Right.

16 MR. HUBER: How do we get beyond that so

17 that we don't have to do that?

18 MR. ADIN: I mean, that's the purpose of

19 the default.

20 MR. HUBER: So it's the default.

21 MR. BOTELER: That's where you get to a

22 nominal value of some sort that you agreed to I
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1 think.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think it's twofold.

3 One is a nominal value. But two, I guess I have a

4 question for you and this is just I apologize for

5 my lack of understanding of the pump world.

6 But how do you market them right now?

7 If you want to show your pump and it's able to be

8 used with all these different types of VFDs that

9 are made by these manufacturers, how do you market

10 them? Like, do you have a brochure that lists all

11 the options? No.

12 MR. HANDZEL: We have a submittal

13 document that if an engineer wants to see all that

14 data, we make it available to them.

15 MR. HUBER: Yeah.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So it's basically

17 through they're spec'ed out by a given customer's

18 needs, right?

19 MR. HUBER: It could be -- it could be

20 by a given customer.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

22 MR. HANDZEL: And customer preference.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Or someone could just say

3 I want a drive, they don't ask any questions and

4 then we have a preference.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then you guys -- but

6 it's not like you have --

7 MR. HUBER: Then you give them some

8 standard drive that you normally use.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- here's my offerings

10 and throw it online with every different

11 variation.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Because we don't base it

13 on --

14 MR. HUBER: No, we don't do that. We

15 don't do that.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

17 MR. HUBER: Now, motors, yeah, you can

18 do that. You can do it because you regulate it

19 and, you know, if you say a premium efficiency

20 motor, everybody knows what that means. So you

21 can offer all manufacturers and nobody cares.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?
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1 MR. BOTELER: Partial load?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie -- that's Rob

3 there, not Charlie Cappellino.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: One of the reasons we

5 can market drives successfully is the energy

6 savings that you get simply by adding the drive

7 far outweigh the difference that you might see

8 from drive manufacturer A, B and C.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: So that's how we go and

11 market then.

12 MR. HANDZEL: If anything, you go into a

13 school and they want all drives of one

14 manufacturer, so.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: You save, you know, 30

16 or 40 percent of the energy. Why argue over 1 or

17 2 percent?

18 MR. HUBER: You never see --

19 MR. HANDZEL: Exactly, and as I --

20 MR. HUBER: You never see -- you never

21 see in any public domain that I've ever seen

22 anybody ask for a certain efficient control. Just
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1 you never see it. And the manufacturers really

2 don't want to talk about it.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it doesn't really

4 work like that, right?

5 MR. BOTELER: It doesn't mean anything.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Exactly.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, keep going.

8 Charlie?

9 MR. BOTELER: We tested some.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's make sure we can

11 understand the record here. Charlie?

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: So what would seem to

13 make sense is the pump efficiency regulation, I

14 think that's clear. We got that taken care of,

15 right? I think for the motors, I mean, if you can

16 have -- I think we talked about this earlier. If

17 you can have a choice of different nominals for,

18 you know, a basic motor, a premium efficiency

19 motor that you can plug into your calculator --

20 MR. HANDZEL: But the basic motor is the

21 premium efficiency motor.

22 MR. HUBER: It is.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: The standard is.

2 MR. BOTELER: By the time the rule comes

3 out

4 --

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: But that could change

6 over time, right? I mean, you can --

7 MR. HANDZEL: DOE goes after Rob and

8 says --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: After six years.

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Well, I guess the point

11 -- the point being since motors have a standard,

12 you can calculate anything based on whatever

13 standard you specify, right? So if you choose to

14 --

15 MR. BOTELER: But the standard for

16 motors is

17 --

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- if you choose to,

19 you could have different calculations for

20 different motors that meet different standards.

21 The problem with the drives, as was said earlier,

22 there is no standard.
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1 So maybe we just leave that one as the

2 nominal. You have a nominal efficiency for the

3 drive and you just do it -- and you always do a

4 calculation for that. You don't test.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: You could do it.

6 MR. BOTELER: So we just need the

7 nominal recertification values so all is better

8 when we test it.

9 MR. HUBER: Exactly. That was my

10 concern.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's the idea

12 generally behind our premise in nominal values.

13 You know, to incentivize those that either, A, may

14 want to test and claim higher efficiencies but, B,

15 not to overstate, to conservative rate and that's

16 how our rating system is generally set up for all

17 products.

18 MR. ADIN: But to get to a point -- back

19 to a point that was brought up earlier, we're not

20 trying to regulate the efficiency of the drive. I

21 think we all understand that. We want to be able

22 to recognize the energy savings that are inherent
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1 from using variable speed applications.

2 So the only point -- well, I mean, I

3 think we just basically covered it but that

4 default value -- just it has to be in there so you

5 have a more representative value of the impact of

6 the slight loss in efficiency of that drive.

7 MR. BOTELER: If the --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob, Rob?

9 MR. BOTELER: If the test rule would

10 want that information from the NEMA drive

11 manufacturers, you know, a quick email form Ashley

12 to us and, you know, somebody, I think we could

13 probably supply that.

14 MR. HANDZEL: A NEMA value?

15 MR. BOTELER: Nominal, nominal drive

16 value at, you know, 100, 75 and 50 which is what

17 we do on motors, 100, 75 and 50.

18 MR. HUBER: Yeah, we've got 25.

19 MR. BOTELER: Or and 25, okay. On

20 motors we gave you 25 too.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it Jeff? Jeff wants

22 to speak. Jeff, stand up.
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1 MR. ALASCIO: This is Jeff Alascio from

2 ABB. The reality is that they don't exist public

3 today for drives.

4 MR. BOTELER: Right.

5 MR. ALASCIO: You would put an onerous

6 testing requirement on all the drive manufacturers

7 if you asked us today to go measure it because it

8 is going to be different based on the type of

9 motor used, i.e., you're not even referencing a

10 synchronous reluctance motor which generally has a

11 higher efficiency rating than an induction motor

12 only drive. Generally I would say -- and we've got

13 some Rockwell gentlemen here too -- that the

14 difference, back to his point earlier, the

15 difference in efficiency of the solution when you

16 put a drive pump on it with a controller versus

17 the differences in efficiency between manufactures

18 of drive, right?

19 And so, I don't know that any

20 manufacturer today has a published document that

21 says our drives are this efficient on this type of

22 motor at these type of loads or speeds. So I
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1 mean, which is back to Al's point that getting

2 that data is very difficult.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: And honestly, I mean, my

4 opinion of this, and you know, I'm going to let

5 Lucas stare at me if I'm kind of wrong, but I

6 don't think DOE needs that level of detail nor do

7 I think we're -- you know, what we're trying to do

8 is differentiate between what we understand to be

9 a better way to do things, for lack of a better

10 term.

11 And so, we can do that in a simplified

12 manner with nominal values and ratios. Now, sure,

13 it would be most helpful if the NEMA drive

14 manufacturers would help inform what those nominal

15 values be.

16 But I don't think we need the level of

17 detail that, you know, you were speaking of in

18 terms of getting all the testing to inform that

19 decision.

20 I'm pretty sure you guys know, you know,

21 enough that -- and we know enough about our regs -

22 - how we can structure something so that those
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1 people that want to make representations of what

2 their pump, motor, drive system would be, you

3 know, that are using variable speed technology, et

4 cetera, et cetera, et cetera, someone could see a

5 benefit.

6 In other words, you could at least

7 differentiate them enough to know that that's a

8 better system when installed this way in the

9 field. And I think really that's the answer we're

10 going for, right?

11 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Without undue test

13 burden.

14 MR. BOTELER: And I would rather give

15 you that data than having DOE make up that data

16 yourselves.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So thank you, Rob. Now,

18 Louis?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So Rob's going to

20 spearhead this effort and he's going to report

21 back out next week.

22 MR. BOTELER: I need a letter from you
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1 that -- asking --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It'll be in your inbox

3 tonight.

4 MR. ECKMAN: It's being composed as you

5 speak.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: What am I supposed to

8 say again?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

10 MR. STARR: So the other thing to

11 consider too is that, you know, the company

12 manufacturers went ahead and tested a certain

13 combination to actually start informing the

14 markets that they specify a certain way.

15 In other words, if you did it with this

16 kind of drive and this kind of motor and they

17 start seeing that in the tested data and it beats

18 out what the nominal value calculating, you can

19 actually shift the market to specifying that type

20 of thing and you start to see -- and maybe even

21 the drive manufacturers would help you out with

22 some of the testing costs if you use their drives
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1 as opposed to someone else's. There's a lot of

2 other things that seem like could happen.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Most of us have -- Mark

4 Handzel, from Xylem. Most of us have selection

5 programs that do variable speed operation modeling

6 that could possibly be set up to do wire to water

7 efficiency calculations that could develop a

8 metric that could be used by -- for rebate

9 purposes, okay.

10 So I mean, there's lots of ways we can

11 do it. But I think we want to make it so it can

12 be easily done, okay?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think -- I think

14 the key to your statement here is that your

15 simulations that you might could alter to come up

16 with a wire to water metric to be used for need to

17 be done in accordance with the DOE test

18 procedures.

19 So this is where it's really important

20 that whatever methodology you might implement in

21 those simulations to get to --

22 MR. HANDZEL: Right, using your
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1 calculated - - the calculated way that you say we

2 should do it.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, we'd like you to

4 inform that decision, right, or to help us get to

5 that decision. So I think, yes.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Well, and if you do it, it

7 makes all of us do it the same way.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, that's key here.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Because otherwise he might

10 do it different than him and then, you know.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. So I think

12 that's what we would be looking to.

13 MR. ADIN: That's why this is all in the

14 test procedure.

15 MR. HANDZEL: No, it's fine.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case?

18 MR. CASE: Greg Case with HI. I guess

19 one of my big concerns is should we want to test,

20 as Louis just went to --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

22 MR. CASE: -- we need to be able to beat
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1 whatever the calculated value us.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct, the nominal

3 value is.

4 MR. ADIN: Right.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

6 MR. CASE: So there's got to be an

7 incentive for us to put that energy into this.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, we agree with that.

10 and I think, you know, if you guys

11 finish stuff today, like those are details that we

12 can talk about in the extra days, like so, you

13 know, we have proposals for things and if you

14 guys, you know, say, hey, we know that proposal is

15 not conservative enough, then that's what we'd

16 like your feedback on. So we agree with that

17 position and I think if, you know --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Those are the type of

19 details that we had planned to work through in the

20 test procedure stuff, so perhaps some of those

21 details we could just discuss tomorrow and the

22 next day.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just wanted to put a

3 plug in for the idea that the energy savings by

4 employing a drive in a lot of these applications

5 where a drive is advantaged are so large and you

6 should try and keep the complexity from a

7 customer's point of view and a manufacturer's

8 point of view down to a bare minimum to get as

9 high an adoption rate as you can.

10 I mean, that's where you're going to get

11 your biggest energy savings and everything else.

12 So just don't make it overly complex for either

13 the manufacturer or the consumer to be able to get

14 that drive out there, market it and get it into

15 the marketplace. So I think we're all headed in

16 the right direction. Just be cognizant of the

17 fact that that's usually the number one thing that

18 prevents people from adopting an extended product

19 solution is the complexity of implementations.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: So don't make it overly

22 complex.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Keep it simple and

3 you'll get all that energy savings. Don't make it

4 so simple that you're trying to fine-tune

5 something that people say, well, that's too

6 complicated for me, I'm just going to throw a

7 standard pump in there with a fixed motor.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I agree.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So have we

10 covered it now?

11 MR. HANDZEL: I think we've agreed for

12 everything. We just need to come up with how

13 we're going to do it.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, there's a lot of

15 details that we need to work through.

16 MR. HANDZEL: Exactly.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: And perhaps it might be

18 best that DOE take a couple things back and try to

19 come up with a strategy to go through some of

20 those details tomorrow to the extent people would

21 be willing to do that with us.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I think this group has
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1 said previously in previous meetings they

2 definitely wanted to do that.

3 MR. STARR: Before that guy leaves, I

4 have a question.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Before that guy -- that

6 guy?

7 MR. STARR: Louis Starr.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Before that guy.

9 MR. RAWALD: I've never been called that

10 before.

11 MR. STARR: He's the regulatory -- I

12 just wanted to make sure that -- I think we talked

13 about this early on but I think it's important

14 that distributors DOE requires the pump

15 manufacturers. I'm kind of concerned a little bit

16 about how that's going to work in the regular

17 course of the DOE in that all manufacturers don't

18 have the same part. Distributors are held to the

19 same requirements that the pump manufacturers are,

20 so.

21 MR. RAWALD: Yeah, that's a talking

22 point for us to talk about and to come back to you
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1 on. We definitely don't have an idea on that --

2 an answer on that at the moment.

3 MR. STARR: Okay, but you think that's a

4 good idea.

5 MR. RAWALD: I can't -- I'm not going to

6 -- I'm not going to opine for the department. So

7 --

8 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I want us

9 to make sure that there's a value of doing that

10 before we go down that road.

11 MR. STARR: Yeah.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, and I think it

13 would be --

14 MS. MAUER: In terms of energy savings

15 and impacts on the manufacturers and I'm not sure

16 if there's a value.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: This was a discussion

18 that came up in several previous meetings.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Early on, by distributors.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: About how anybody

21 involved in this chain from manufacturer all the

22 way to distributors that maybe coupled some pieces
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1 together, what the -- what' the definition of

2 manufacturer.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know, Doug, I think

4 we're -- well, I think we'll pretty much have to

5 discuss that. Until we have how this test

6 procedure would look like, what this rating would

7 look like, we now have the component of this.

8 But until we look at it more

9 holistically as to what the regulatory pieces

10 might look like, I think we're a little premature

11 in discussing, okay, well, who is that entity

12 quite responsible for doing all these different

13 pieces and how is that all going to work together.

14 That is something that would come down

15 the road. But you know, and like Joanna said,

16 we'd like to see, you know, to the extent there

17 are different people involved, you know, it'd be

18 interesting to see what the thoughts are here.

19 But I don't think at this point the department is

20 ready or willing to provide its position on that.

21 It's just --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: So Louis, does that mean
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1 Doug could leave?

2 MR. STARR: Yeah.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to thank -- one

4 more question.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's okay. Go ahead.

6 MR. HANDZEL: I want to come back to the

7 sampling issue, okay?

8 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Because for example, so my

10 company redesigned one of their product lines,

11 okay? We've fully qualified all of the new

12 designs. We've fully tested them. Can I say that

13 we've sampled two pumps in every model? I don't

14 think I can.

15 But I'm very comfortable that I can

16 duplicate that performance data on every model

17 that I could sell to somebody now. So my intention

18 would be to not go through and retest two pumps of

19 every model.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: But you have to test them

21 according to the DOE test procedure.

22 MR. STARR: Which isn't complete yet.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: But I do that already. I

2 mean, everything I test -- unless they change

3 something significantly, we're already doing it,

4 okay?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think until we have

6 the -- so the first thing is to work out the

7 details of what the DOE test procedure should look

8 like, will look like.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Which we've been helping

10 you do.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we're going to

12 continue to do, right?

13 MR. HANDZEL: Mm-hmm. (Affirmative.)

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Once we have that, it's

15 then how many units might have to be tested

16 because it might be that we come out with, you

17 know, method A/B/C/D which is, A, wire to water,

18 B, pump-only test, nominal values for the other

19 two --

20 MR. HANDZEL: See, you reopen the whole

21 thing then.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: C, pump value -- you see
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1 what I'm saying, you know?

2 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so, that is --

4 providing those calculation methods, you know,

5 whatever that is, is going to reduce your test

6 burden too.

7 So it might be that testing more than

8 one for a handful of small, you know, subset of

9 pumps is reasonable, but maybe not. Maybe there's

10 not enough variation to matter. I don't know

11 enough.

12 MR. HANDZEL: So Tom, I would just put a

13 flag that our ability to provide, you know, early

14 qualifications --

15 MR. HUBER: Early certifications.

16 MR. HANDZEL: -- is going to be totally

17 hinged on what they tell us we have to do because

18 many of us are -- you know, because if we have to

19 go back and retest everything, a multiple piece of

20 each one in different configurations, I mean,

21 we're looking at years of testing.

22 MR. ECKMAN: We understood that. We
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1 didn't think this was going to --

2 MR. HANDZEL: And I have to say that I

3 don't think that we've ever considered the cost of

4 testing in any economic model that we've done.

5 MS. WIDDER: Not yet.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Because, I mean, that kind

7 of testing, I mean, you know, we have limited

8 facilities

9 --

10 MR. RAWALD: Sure, sure.

11 MR. HANDZEL: We have customers paying

12 us to have products tested. So if we have to

13 pull, you know, all those things through our test

14 lab, we'll be running them 24 hours a day, 365

15 days a year.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the reality is at the

17 end of the day, we end up adopting a test

18 procedure for which you can say I have certified

19 PER.

20 I have PER values that have been

21 developed in accordance with the DOE test

22 procedure requirements and you're willing to sign
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1 a legal statement that says such because that's

2 what your certification report does, then you have

3 your data.

4 MR. HANDZEL: Have somebody else sign

5 it, not me.

6 (Laughter.)

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I've got somebody

8 else who will call and ask about it.

9 MR. BOTELER: You're on the hook for

10 liability in a court of law. If you agree with

11 that, we're good to go.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what -- right,

13 that's it.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So really it's going to

15 come down to the details, right?

16 MR. HANDZEL: No, exactly, exactly. But

17 that's why we hear all that --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

19 MR. HANDZEL: -- because none of us have

20 been down this road before. So we're learning a

21 lot today even though we just passed a very

22 important part to this group. We're still
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1 learning.

2 MR. ADIN: Yeah, we want to make sure

3 you understand every part of how this would work

4 before you --

5 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so, all right, when

7 you go to do it, there will be a ton of more

8 questions and, you know, we will be here to answer

9 those and work with you.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so thanks to both

11 of you for coming. Really appreciate that. That

12 was --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, I get out of this

14 too? That's even better. I thought just Doug was

15 getting excused.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes?

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Will we see -- this is

18 Gary. Will we see Ashley tomorrow or later in this

19 process?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: To discuss the test

21 procedure?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to see
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1 Ashley tomorrow? Oh, Ashley cannot be around

2 tomorrow morning but I can be around tomorrow

3 afternoon.

4 But nonetheless, we -- I think -- so I

5 don't know what -- do you guys have an agenda?

6 But I think it would be worthwhile if we take an

7 hour to talk about some things in preparation for

8 tomorrow morning if possible.

9 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I don't know that

11 we need to do much more.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know what else

13 you guys want to talk about today, if you want to

14 claim victory, celebrate your victory, watch some

15 soccer and kind of reconvene tomorrow to discuss

16 some of these details with the test procedure.

17 It might be good if DOE gets their ducks

18 in order in terms of what we would like to present

19 in terms of ideas for -- give us --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So the remaining items,

21 in addition to our -- this is almost like a World

22 Cup victory, what we've done today, setting the --
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1 establishing the standard levels.

2 We still need to take up the metric

3 issues and we needed to have a more detailed

4 consideration of test procedure, both of which

5 would benefit from a little bit more development

6 from staff and the DOE side, right?

7 So neither of those are in a position

8 for us to take up additionally today. Is there

9 anything else we can plausibly do today or should

10 we just say yea and leave here today?

11 MR. HUBER: How far away are -- let me

12 ask a question. How far aware are we from

13 developing these test procedures?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not that far.

15 MR. HUBER: I didn't think so.

16 MS. WIDDER: We've been discussing it

17 over these meetings for some time.

18 MR. HUBER: Yeah, but you haven't -- are

19 you at a point where you can present to us?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think that's what

21 we want to talk about maybe without you first.

22 I'm just saying --
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1 MR. HUBER: You're just saying that.

2 That's okay.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Just don't put us on mute,

4 okay?

5 MR. HUBER: That's all right. And I

6 don't have any problem with that. But if that's

7 what you talk about and you come in here tomorrow

8 and are ready to present to us what the test

9 procedure is or you think it's going to look like,

10 then I think we can get -- you know, we can get a

11 lot accomplished.

12 If you don't, if you just parse out a

13 little bit here, there and we're thinking about

14 this but we might do that kind of stuff, you're

15 not going to get very far.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So do we want it more

18 holistically than we've been doing thus far?

19 MR. HUBER: Yes.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

21 MR. HUBER: In other words, we presented

22 HI's -- what is it, 40.7.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, right.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you want to know

3 where --

4 MR. HANDZEL: What's going to be done.

5 MR. HUBER: Are you going to adopt that,

6 that's what we want to know.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, what else is being

8 changed from what we gave you in 40.7.

9 MR. HUBER: Six.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Six.

11 MR. HUBER: Six.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Sorry.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, because like we've

14 been mostly talking about how you add on to 40.6

15 so far.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I really think the --

17 okay, so I'm speaking a little out of turn here.

18 But I think that the details are going to be

19 downstream of 40 point --

20 MR. HANDZEL: Six.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Rather than what changes

22 we might consider to 40.6. In other words, you
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1 need to be worried about motor stuff, pump stuff,

2 nominal values, how you come up with your PER

3 integrated metric, that kind of stuff more so than

4 the actual test, in my opinion. But we can work -

5 - let us talk about some stuff and see.

6 MR. HUBER: Well, if you're not going to

7 change it, that's fine with us.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I didn't -- I didn't say

9 that.

10 MR. HUBER: It's okay.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have not seen our

12 proposal yet. But at the same time, I think the

13 intention is to utilize as much of the industry

14 standard without changing it as opposed to -- how

15 about that?

16 MR. HUBER: That gives us some comfort.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Louis Starr?

18 MR. STARR: I was going to try to give

19 some perspective to kind of DOE of what it looks

20 like in the market. Normally, this would take six

21 or seven months for test procedures. So it's all

22 getting condensed down for the procedure tests.
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1 So I think as you saw from the calculation error,

2 probably if you had more time --

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Thanks, Louis.

4 MR. STARR: Well --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Now that the bosses are

6 in the room, thanks.

7 MR. BOTELER: They call it a left-handed

8 comment.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So I haven't gotten any

10 direct read yet. But I think that we're done for

11 today, I think, unless there's other issues to be

12 discussed that I don't know about.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Vote?

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Vote?

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Weren't we going to have

16 some kind of -- oh, we did. This is Gary.

17 MR. HANDZEL: He's starting the

18 celebration early.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Where's that flask?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, what'd you have for

22 lunch? So just to confirm, we had a unanimous
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1 vote with one abstention and one absence --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's great.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: -- for the established

4 standard level. So that's good work. Let's call

5 it a day, shall we? Meg, before we go?

6 MS. WALTNER: Yeah, I just had one

7 question in terms of process in developing an

8 actual term sheet. Is that something -- is DOE

9 going to draft and propose that and are we going

10 to start looking at that language over the next

11 two days or is that going to happen --

12 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: And there are some other

15 issues -- based on previous votes, like we should

16 confirm the scope. But I mean, do a final

17 confirmation on some of the other agreements we've

18 made previously.

19 MR. ADIN: That's what a term sheet

20 does.

21 MS. WALTNER: Where we can iron out

22 actual -
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1 -

2 MR. ADIN: The term sheet is a list of

3 all of the things that we voted on, right?

4 So we'll write up a draft document that

5 says this group met and voted, you know, and here

6 are all the recommendations that we have from

7 ASRAC and there was a unanimous vote or whatever

8 on each item and they'll just be all listed out

9 and we'll go through that together. We'll put it

10 up on the screen and make sure we all agree with

11 the language.

12 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So can I make one

14 suggestion? So the way we did it in commercial

15 cert, the previous negotiated rulemaking, you're

16 more than welcome to sit here and go through it on

17 the screen and tweak away. We just sent it out

18 and I know you guys love SharePoint. I heard that

19 you guys love SharePoint.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Al especially.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So Al, you can edit away

22 on SharePoint here. But you know, you can send
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1 back edits and we can consolidate. I will say

2 with a caveat that as long as the general premise

3 is right. It's got to go in our regulatory text

4 anyway, in our DOE format.

5 So the odds that it gets tweaked, we

6 have every intention of fully honoring all our

7 negotiations here as we have previously. But by

8 the time I get it -- we get it through like three

9 or four lawyers and then Dan, you know, it'll be

10 edited away anyway.

11 So you know, I wouldn't say your best

12 efforts are spent word tweaking any language in

13 particular in the term sheet, as long as you agree

14 with the general premise, the voting, and you've

15 captured the intent or any caveats that you'd like

16 to put in there. I think you're good.

17 MR. ADIN: Right, just to clarify,

18 that's all I meant is that we're capturing intent.

19 But yeah, thanks.

20 MR. COHEN: Just to clarify further, on

21 the words, clear intention is what's key, right?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's what --
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1 exactly.

2 MR. COHEN: And that's the key thing,

3 right? The words less but as long as you're very

4 clear exactly what it is you're agreed to.

5 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie?

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: I was just wondering in

8 the spirit of trying to drive things to conclusion

9 here, is there anything that you'd like us to

10 think about this afternoon and this evening in

11 preparation for tomorrow?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: How you want to come up

13 with a nominal value for a drive.

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: I'm not sure about that

15 one.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: How about that?

17 MR. BOTELER: 98, 96, 94.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Done. All right, Mark,

19 you have something?

20 MR. HANDZEL: No, my question is along

21 the same line as Charlie's. So I think the one

22 sign says we're starting at 9:00 tomorrow.
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1 MS. MARCHETTI: Sorry, I can't hear the

2 person who's talking.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me, one person at

4 a time. Mark Handzel, please.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you're good.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Just confirming we're

7 going to start at 9:00 tomorrow and also just

8 wanted to, along Charlie's lines, what else is on

9 the agenda for tomorrow, what -- I mean, before we

10 go out and celebrate, what should we be preparing

11 for?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: The two items for

13 tomorrow are metric and test procedure.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think it's really

16 walking through test procedure and then how you

17 would come up with a rated value and what that

18 means in DOE's world and what you would have to

19 do.

20 And some of those nitty-gritty details

21 that maybe we haven't ironed out yet but you might

22 have opinions or help inform those. Does that
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1 work?

2 MR. HANDZEL: Okay, great.

3 MR. HUBER: We're good.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: And you'll recall we

5 established meeting dates in July. Several

6 individuals this morning said, boy, let's see if

7 we can get through this in the month of June.

8 We're on a pathway now to being very, very

9 productive.

10 We'll keep that up tomorrow and see

11 where we stand, okay? So tomorrow, 9:00 a.m., in

12 8-E in the Forrestal Building, right, the same

13 building -- the same big room we've been meeting

14 in previously. So another round of applause as we

15 head off for the day.

16 (Applause.)

17 MR. BROOKMAN: See you tomorrow at 9:00

18 a.m.

19 (Whereupon, the foregoing

20 adjourned at 2:26 p.m.)

21

22
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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 

3 

4 I, BENJAMIN GRAHAM, hereby certify that I am not 

5 the Court Reporter who reported the following 

6 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of 

7 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes 

8 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 

9 is a true, correct, and complete transcription of 

10 said proceeding. 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Date ~-~~C;J2J.~ nj@jfin Graham 

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0.01 36:3

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1 62:16 160:16

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40 45:2 52:4 59:15

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5

5 26:19 28:2

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6 4:2

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1:15

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101:19,20 102:6

149:5

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181:18

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100:5 101:21,22

189:1

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101:15,17

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94:4 99:18

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77:22 185:11

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180:21

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136:12

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150:22

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adjourned 194:20

adjuncts 86:2

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affect 11:1 12:9,12

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151:16,20

152:6,14

153:8,13,18

154:10

155:10,15,19

156:12,21

157:2,12

158:2,16,21

159:1,5,9,16

161:3,6 162:9

163:5,11 166:3

167:12,19

168:2,7 169:13

170:3,8,11,16,21

171:2,5,8,18

172:20

173:1,8,14,17

174:5,8 175:12

176:3 177:5

178:5,11,14,22

179:3 180:16

181:7,14,18

182:6,13,22
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

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183:12

184:14,20

185:16

186:2,16,21

187:8,11 188:19

189:2,13

190:13,21

191:22

192:12,16

193:5,15

arrive 110:22

137:20

arrived 148:2

artificially 147:18

Ashley 2:4 5:3

98:18,20 99:3

102:10 111:14

122:10 144:14

164:11 182:18

183:1

Ashley's 150:21

aspect 20:16

103:20

aspects 152:9

ASRAC 54:18

190:7

ASRAC's 54:18

assigned 117:15

150:17

associated 35:3

138:14 149:17

assume 67:6 83:13

86:12

assumed 10:8

assuming 92:3

104:16

143:10,11

assumption 10:9

43:4

attorney 99:12

Automation 2:19

7:21

available 75:11

78:11 83:18

85:12 141:22

142:2 147:16

158:14

average 27:10

46:10 49:12

134:16

awarding 81:4

aware 132:12,15

184:12

Awareness 2:21

7:7

away 184:11

190:17,21

191:10

aye 99:19

B

backed 43:20

bad 133:15

badge 71:2 91:15

balance 77:8

bam 71:6

bands 150:20

bar 24:16

Barbour 2:10 7:10

23:17,19 24:4

25:22 26:7,22

bare 44:9 47:13

85:5 127:21

128:2 137:9

138:12 139:1

148:6,8 172:8

base 104:7 131:17

159:12

based 12:10 15:17

16:7 17:19,22

23:22 24:12 42:3

46:2 50:21 51:1

57:7 69:15 85:20

93:4 103:12

109:4 117:15

118:2,8 119:8

129:16 133:9

136:6,12 145:1,5

151:4 154:19

155:5 162:12

165:8 189:15

baseline 36:18

67:6 86:20

basement 91:10

basic 14:22 107:22

108:12

117:17,18,19

119:13,17,18,21

120:1,10,15,18

121:4,15

122:19,21 123:5

124:12,15,18

126:21

127:11,12,15,20

128:8

131:8,11,19

136:2 155:5

161:18,20

basically

15:10,15,18

19:16 21:16

22:21 30:8,13,17

31:2 32:17 33:13

48:2 55:6 58:16

60:18 61:11 64:2

66:4 90:11 92:4

97:11 106:5

121:9 126:10

129:5 135:17

139:21 153:3

154:16 158:16

164:3

beat 170:22

beats 168:17

becomes 38:6

135:19

begin 13:15 98:2

102:9

beginning 18:4

23:7 30:1 33:10

begun 102:12

behalf 37:8 55:21

behind 163:12

beige 124:9

believe 6:8 14:15

35:9 48:22 57:11

73:16

Beloit 101:10

bene 106:3

beneficial 22:2

benefit 149:8

167:5 184:5

Benjamin

195:4,14

BEP 128:11

134:11,12,13

138:5

Berkeley 3:8

4:7,12 8:10

best 11:20 12:7,18

14:1,8 57:7,9

59:5 91:9 173:18

191:11

better 32:4 105:20

118:4 139:17

145:13 149:22

163:7 166:9

167:8 182:14
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

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betting 69:4

beyond 54:21

157:16

bigger 107:2

biggest 28:10,11

172:11

bin 20:2 26:15

binned 17:16

19:15,16,21

26:17

bins 17:17

19:16,17,18

bit 32:12 33:17

41:1 45:19 56:7

64:7 65:9 67:14

75:7 94:18 107:2

116:14 119:14

128:2 174:15

184:5 185:13

black 124:9

board 31:3 49:17

121:3 140:18

boards 129:18

Bob 7:10 23:19

25:22

bolts 107:18

bosses 188:5

Boteler 2:11 87:4

117:19 123:22

131:13,14,19

150:14 151:12

153:21 154:5

155:8,12,18

156:9 157:21

160:1 161:5,9

162:2,15 163:6

164:7,9,15,19

165:4 167:14,22

181:9 188:7

192:17

bottom 143:17,22

bought 149:5

bound 150:8

bows 72:9

box 148:20

boy 194:6

brain 119:12

brand 126:19

break 71:8 89:21

91:7

Brenda 9:9

brief 9:12,17

67:18

briefly 89:10

bring 155:11

brings 154:11

broad 108:12

119:10

broadly 119:22

142:16

brochure 158:10

Brookman 1:17

2:2 4:2 6:2 7:19

8:1,5,8,14,20 9:2

11:4,8,22

13:2,6,12,17,20

14:4,7,11,14,18

15:3,11,14 17:6

18:16 20:18 22:1

23:6,11,15 27:2

28:4 29:22

30:6,11 31:4

32:3 34:12

36:3,7,20 39:22

40:2 41:2 42:4

43:7 44:1 45:10

47:10 48:13

49:7,9

50:1,11,16 51:4

53:6,11 54:16

55:3,20

56:12,18,22

58:2,5 60:1,19

62:17 63:4,12

64:10 66:19

67:17 68:15

69:21 70:22

71:12,16

72:3,15,17

73:10,13,18,20

74:3,21 75:2,13

76:5 78:7 87:7

88:18,22

89:8,12,16,20

90:4,7,16

91:11,15,22

92:13

93:11,13,17,19

94:8,11,17,20,22

95:8,20

96:6,16,20

97:1,7

98:7,11,20

99:8,16

100:4,8,11

101:1,5,8,12,16,

20 102:3,6,8

103:19 108:16

110:18

111:14,19,21

112:5,8

113:17,19

115:15

119:12,19 120:4

121:6 122:2,14

123:3,15 124:1

128:16 130:8

131:18 132:9

136:15 139:14

149:12 152:1

156:17 159:22

160:2 161:7,10

164:8,21 167:17

168:6,9 170:17

172:1 173:9,22

175:17,20

176:22 177:3

181:12

182:10,16,20

183:20 187:17

188:9,21

189:3,14

192:6,18

193:3,12

194:4,17

brought 94:13

163:19

brows 50:17

Budget 54:15

building 194:12,13

buildup 95:2

bullet 60:21

burden 120:17

155:7 167:13

179:6

business 9:9 47:21

48:4 54:19

buy 45:17 48:2

buying

47:14,16,22

C

calculate 59:18

61:6,7 67:5

80:11 86:9

136:11 137:19

140:5,21

144:15,18,22

162:12

calculated

40:20,22 51:13

68:4 141:1 170:1
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

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171:1

calculating

39:2,20 51:16

78:19 103:10

152:11,15,16

168:18

calculation 12:21

21:5 35:2 69:14

82:9 85:20 106:4

110:3 111:8

123:14 134:2,14

135:22 138:1

139:11,18

141:19 144:11

146:13,19

147:9,14 148:10

152:21 153:7

163:4 179:4

188:1

calculations 80:10

83:4 140:4

142:14,18,21

162:19 169:7

calculator

10:7,10,16,19,21

,22 11:13,20

12:11,18,19 13:1

15:22 36:11

40:11 60:11

67:12 69:9 96:8

122:17 134:10

136:17 161:19

calculators 79:5

California 2:16

6:20,22 7:2

candidates 128:3

capability 87:11

capacity 87:9

Cappellino 2:12

7:11 31:5,10

32:7,16,22

33:5,8,11

47:10,11

70:4,5,12,15,19

123:17,19

136:16 137:1,7

160:3,4,10,15

161:12

162:5,10,18

172:2,21 173:2

192:7,14

captured 191:15

capturing 191:18

card 9:9

care 161:14

careful 84:4

cares 159:21

case 2:13 7:13

31:21 50:19,20

59:22 60:1,2,8

86:13 112:1

150:10,12

153:5,6

170:17,18,22

171:6

cases 19:6 25:2

26:14 42:20

49:15,16 149:15

cast 50:18

casting 99:20

categories 39:18

category 12:14

66:21

caucus 4:14,16

55:22 67:18

69:19 71:8 73:21

77:13 90:18 91:5

caucuses 71:18,20

90:18 92:19

100:17,18,19

caught 22:2 98:22

caused 41:11

caution 29:2

caveat 191:2

caveats 191:15

celebrate 183:14

193:10

celebration 188:18

cert 190:15

certain 38:3 105:8

120:17,19 142:3

156:13 160:22

168:12,14

Certainly 108:16

certainty 55:21

78:2

CERTIFICATE

195:1

certification 5:2

74:5,7 75:8,10

96:18 97:3,20

99:5 102:11

103:8,14

104:5,6,11 105:1

111:13 112:18

113:22 114:18

116:2,5,22 118:1

135:7 147:21

148:17 181:2

certifications

179:15

certified 109:17

116:21

120:12,13

122:21 133:10

136:2 152:3,4

153:6,14,16

180:18

certify 75:11

78:10,17 102:10

103:2 104:3,17

109:8,12,16,22

110:4 125:17

126:19 127:6

130:4 131:16

132:16 136:8,20

137:13 139:21

148:1 149:4,8

153:18 157:10

195:4

certifying 109:10

134:5 153:21

certs 115:18

cetera 167:4

CFR 138:22 139:6

CGAR 51:13

chain 175:21

chalked 53:2

chance 71:18

change 17:2,5

20:22 21:2,4

27:20 28:1 33:4

34:20,21 35:3

40:18 41:11 45:8

48:7,12 49:3

50:4,6,9,14

55:17 59:13

83:11 162:5

178:2 187:7

changed 11:3,5

13:11 16:16 17:7

20:16 28:2 30:7

33:15 49:14

186:8

changes 9:16,17

10:1 11:19

12:8,11,17,21

17:2 40:13 44:22

45:8 62:16 69:15
Capital Reporting Company

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186:21

changing 34:1

83:7 125:2

187:14

characteristics

108:3 123:7,9

characterize 56:2

charge 147:12,16

CHARLES 2:12

Charlie 7:11 31:5

32:16 47:10,11

70:4

123:16,18,19

136:15 159:22

160:2,3

161:7,8,11 172:1

192:6

Charlie's 192:21

193:8

chart 49:1,2,3

check 35:22 70:9

71:11 77:13

148:20

checked 17:18

checking 21:21

25:2 26:11

choice 47:14

136:14 161:17

choose 30:16

125:9 139:5

140:1 162:13,18

chose 129:17

Chris 33:14

41:6,11 43:14

chunk 77:15

Circular 61:19

circulators

76:14,18

claim 131:5

149:22 163:14

183:14

clarification 70:3

93:14

clarifications 71:7

73:21 75:4

clarified 119:13

clarify 60:19 72:12

75:13 89:3

117:13 123:3

136:16

191:17,20

clarifying 62:19

108:14

clarity 48:15

class 30:20 31:19

32:13 116:20

127:12,13,14

classes 22:22 23:1

30:15 64:4

74:16,18,19 93:5

127:5

clear 58:1 80:18

131:21 132:11

135:12 137:7

161:14 191:21

192:4

clearly 57:2

C-levels 68:17

close 22:10 38:21

44:12 62:14

66:22 76:5

133:21

closely 42:13

closer 22:8,22 23:1

35:17,19

Closing 5:6

codes 92:8

coffee 70:16 71:1

cognizant 172:16

COHEN 2:5

191:20 192:2

cohort 122:14

coil 88:15,16

collaboration

100:17

collect 105:8,21

107:1

collected 18:1

collection 102:11

collects 105:4

color 124:15

126:16

column 80:19

columns 134:6

combination 9:20

32:5 45:15

168:13

combinations 84:1

combine 16:19

31:1,15,17

44:7,12

combined 46:21

114:21

combining 31:11

33:7,10

comes 25:11 91:1

112:10 137:16

142:20 162:2

comfort 187:16

comfortable

177:15

coming 69:15 99:6

144:11 146:17

182:11

comment 64:11

105:16 110:19

137:17 188:8

comments 41:21

Comments/

Questions

4:8,13

commerce 136:3

commercial 6:5

190:14

COMMERCIAL/

INDUSTRIAL

1:5

committed 77:8

committee 1:4

100:22 105:6,17

112:10

common 139:6

companies 44:5,6

77:5,9

company 2:20

4:18 6:22 7:1,2

79:12,14 126:4

168:11 177:10

comparable 42:2

compared 19:17

comparison 47:7

144:7

compelling 43:8

complete 41:14

177:22 195:9

completed 113:11

completely 12:6

68:9

completing 104:21

complex 62:6

172:12,22

complexity
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

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(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012

172:6,19

compliance 94:15

103:3 104:6,9,17

113:5 153:12

compliant

61:12,16 108:9

116:21

complicated

149:14 173:6

complicating

55:13

complies 108:10

component 146:20

176:7

components 103:9

109:5 125:7

143:1 147:15

153:7

155:9,13,16

composed 168:4

compressor 125:1

compromises

87:20

concern 163:10

concerned 88:11

146:11 174:15

concerns 102:17

170:19

conclusion 192:8

condensed 187:22

condenser 156:1,3

conditioners

124:21

confidentiality

18:21

configurations

127:22 155:6

179:20

confirm 47:12

54:19 60:20 91:3

97:17 146:17

188:22 189:16

confirmation

189:17

confirmed 42:18

98:11

confirming 193:6

confused 62:17

confusion 16:14

151:2

congratulations

100:5,15

connected 16:1,4,5

connections 126:7

consensus 54:17

consequently

33:19

Conservation 2:15

4:17 6:18

conservative

163:15 171:15

consider 39:19

55:8 59:10

105:10 112:11

116:7 118:11

147:22 148:15

168:11 186:22

considerable 9:15

consideration

152:18 184:4

considerations

112:20 154:13

considered 180:3

considering 60:10

114:14

121:14,18

consistent 46:17

consolidate 122:12

191:1

consolidated 79:9

constant 134:11

135:4

constraints 21:20

construction 138:8

consult 89:10

consultant 151:22

consultants 106:5

consultation 90:19

Consultations

4:14,16

Consulting 3:6,7

consumer 33:21

49:16 172:13

consuming 60:22

consumption

124:16

contemplate

104:22

content 8:17 13:9

115:13

continually 38:1

continue 78:8

178:12

Continued 3:1 5:1

control 83:7 86:10

87:2 106:9 107:5

127:22 135:16

147:19 160:22

controller 165:16

controls 140:14

142:2 156:22

conversation

9:12,18

cool 76:18

cooperation

100:17

copy 9:10 14:14

Corporation

2:11,12 3:2

7:12,18

correct

10:12,13,14

23:20 24:2 30:7

35:11 57:11

66:19 93:8

115:11 134:9

139:18 145:7

146:18 147:2,3

170:11 171:2,8

195:9

correctly 35:9

correlate 29:17

corresponded 22:6

corridor 91:19

cost 21:10,13 41:7

45:1,3 47:14

49:19,20 180:3

costs 45:1 168:22

Council 2:15 3:5

4:17 6:18 7:9

Counsel 99:12

count 100:21

counting 101:3

couple 106:7 108:5

117:5 139:15

173:18

coupled 38:21

175:22

course 91:2

113:2,8 174:17
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

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court 91:12 181:10

195:5,7

covered 164:3

173:10

crazier 21:11

create 79:4 84:5

135:7

creating 16:13

credible 81:4

crosswalk 37:2,4

75:1

crunch 68:20

cubic 62:5

Cup 183:22

curious 10:6

curve 21:10,13,14

113:6,13,16

119:8

curves 125:4

130:17

customer 47:22

157:4 158:20,22

customers 155:7

180:11

customer's 158:17

172:7

cut 58:20 65:14

Cutler 157:6

cutting

58:10,12,22 59:2

C-value 37:15

61:9

C-values 15:8,22

16:3,5,9,21

17:9,11 20:13,22

27:11 36:12

38:13,20 39:6

56:5 57:4 58:17

59:1,18,19 61:6

66:7 67:8,14

68:6 72:18

93:1,9 96:3

D

D.C 1:16 6:4,10

Dan 8:13 39:5,7

41:20 48:13

50:13 53:6 101:9

191:9

DANIEL 2:5 3:6

Dan's 43:7

data 17:22 18:9,10

19:11,14,15,17,2

0,21

20:2,3,5,8,10

23:21

24:7,8,9,10,11,1

2,15

25:5,8,11,15,16,

18 26:3,6,17

27:16 28:14

29:1,2,5,6,17

38:17 39:8

42:1,9

43:9,10,12 46:15

57:7 60:12 64:19

68:20 75:10

78:11

79:4,5,9,11

81:13 84:11,13

86:4 102:11

103:4

104:12,15,22

105:8,17

106:4,6,7 107:1

108:18,19

111:15 134:1,6

139:10

140:14,15

141:22 142:1

145:6

146:2,5,6,12,21

147:16 150:16

152:4 153:2

154:3,9 158:14

166:2 167:15

168:17 177:16

181:3

database 15:2,9

16:16,18

17:10,11,12,19

19:7 34:20 78:22

79:15 80:19 81:3

82:14,21 85:5

87:12 88:5

103:8,14 107:8

122:6 133:17

134:19

databases 16:20

dataset 20:21 26:9

27:5 28:7,13

datasets 20:14

26:21 27:9,22

date 64:22 73:14

78:3 93:4 103:3

113:5 114:14

195:14

dates 9:7 194:5

day 6:4 9:5 70:2

125:10 171:22

180:14,17 189:5

194:15

days 21:19 171:12

180:15 189:11

deal 88:14

dealing 45:6

decide 18:22 66:12

140:15

decided 19:13

decision 32:14

57:3,14,20

166:19 170:4,5

decisions 30:10

deck 20:12

decrease 129:19

143:19

default 109:14

110:1 149:17,20

151:7,18 152:1

153:12

157:19,20 164:4

defaults 153:10,12

Defense 3:5 7:9

define 119:20

136:1 137:19

defining 152:8

153:3

definitely 107:13

111:1 112:13

127:6 174:2

175:1

definition 176:1

definitive 26:2

127:11

Delaney 101:9

delay 92:15

delve 119:14

denominator

61:13 139:6

denominators

61:15

department 1:1

2:3,4,5,7,8 5:3,4

6:5,15 99:7,13

105:1,3,10 175:6

176:19

department's

104:2

depend 16:9
Capital Reporting Company

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depending 23:2

33:6 77:18 117:9

135:2

depends 77:21

118:14,20

121:21 131:12

derived 62:20

151:22

Description 4:21

design 2:13 144:20

designs 155:6

177:12

detail 9:16 34:11

166:6,17

detailed 184:3

details 21:16 43:15

79:15 131:1

155:2

171:11,19,21

173:15,20 178:7

181:15 183:16

186:18 193:20

determine 111:4

136:20 141:13

determined 151:9

determining

142:21 150:2

develop 83:2

104:13 112:22

169:7

developed 10:8,9

180:21

developing 109:12

184:13 189:7

development 2:13

29:15 184:5

Diagnostics 2:14

diameter 132:14

133:7

Diego 7:1

differ 128:19

difference 28:22

34:9 44:4

67:20,22 68:1

160:7 165:14,15

differences 25:3

26:20 137:14

165:17

different 15:17

16:17,22

20:14,17 21:7

25:16 26:13

31:15 32:8,12

33:3,17,19 38:1

47:18 49:13 50:8

58:19 59:6

64:2,7 66:1

84:8,9 87:1

88:16 105:4,5

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willing 77:9

173:21 176:20

180:22

wire 145:13,16,18

146:7 147:1

152:14 169:6,16

178:17

wish 8:15 13:7

64:11 75:11,14

100:1

wishes 73:22

wondering 71:19

192:7

work 6:14 50:22

54:19 77:2

99:4,13 107:20

132:8 140:17

161:4 171:19

173:15 174:16

176:13 178:6

182:3,9 187:4

189:4 194:1

worked 14:20

100:13

working 1:5,15

6:6,9 14:5 53:17

54:17,20 92:19

96:11 106:3

works 16:11

world 141:17,18

158:5 183:21

193:18

worried 146:17,18

150:15 187:1

worse 41:8

worthwhile 67:13

183:6

write 137:22 190:4

wrong 23:20 134:9

142:3 166:5

wrote 101:21

X

Xerox 9:10

Xylem 2:18 7:16

17:21 29:11

65:17 79:14

83:21 87:13

106:3 169:4

Y

yea 184:10

year-and-a-half

77:19

yellow 50:3 52:3

yells 157:2

yesterday 9:15

yet 9:9 11:18

82:6,11 130:2,6

154:13 177:22

180:5 187:12

188:10 193:21

you'll 71:2 91:15

133:6 173:3

194:4

yourself 8:2 90:9

98:21 99:10

yourselves 167:16

you've 10:11 23:15

33:17 34:3 36:12

63:20 64:19

70:16 80:17

147:7 149:19,20

157:13 191:14

Z

zero 52:4 73:7