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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 1 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL PUMPS WORKING GROUP

CALL # MAY 0814-4 EE-5B

TUESDAY, JUNE 17, 2014

The above-referenced working group met in Room 8037-A/B, 950 L'Enfant Plaza S.W., Washington, D.C., 20585, at 9:30 a.m., Doug Brookman, Meeting Facilitator, presiding.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public Solutions, Inc. 3 LUCAS ADIN, U.S. Department of Energy 4 ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, U.S. Department of Energy 5 DANIEL COHEN, U.S. Department of Energy 6 JEREMIAH FREEMAN, New West Technologies 7 EMILY MARCHETTI, U.S. Department of Energy 8 DOUGLAS RAWALD, U.S. Department of Energy 9 JEFFREY ALASCIO, ABB, Inc. 10 ROBERT BARBOUR, TACO, Inc. 11 ROBERT BOTELER, Nidec Motor Corporation 12 CHARLES CAPPELLINO, ITT Corporation 13 GREG CASE, Pump Design, Development and 14 Diagnostics 15 TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation Council 16 GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor-Owned 17 Utilities 18 MARK HANDZEL, Xylem, Inc. 19 JIANGANG HU, Rockwell Automation 20 ALBERT HUBER, Patterson Pump Company 21 JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness Project 22 DOUGLAS POTTS, American Water

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued) 2 JAY SIVIGNY, Flowserve Corporation 3 LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance 4 GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos 5 MEG WALTNER, National Resources Defense Council 6 DANIEL WEINTRAUB, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 7 SARAH WIDDER, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 8 ALISON WILLIAMS, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 4 1 C O N T E N T S 2 Opening Remarks Doug Brookman 6 3 Introductions 7 4 Opening Remarks 5 Albert Huber, Patterson Pump 9 6 Energy Savings Opening Remarks 7 Alison Williams, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory 10 8 Comments/Questions 12 9 10 Slide Presentation 11 Alison Williams, 12 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory 14 13 Comments/Questions 19 14 Adjourn for Caucus Consultations 15 16 Report on Caucus Consultations 67 Tom Eckman, 17 Northwest Power and Conservation Council 18 Al Huber, Patterson Pump Company 19 20 Lunch Recess 21 Joint Proposal Description and Members Vote 91 22

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 5 1 C O N T E N T S (Continued) 2 Certification 96 3 Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy 4 Douglas Rawald, U.S. Department of Energy 5 6 Closing Remarks 174 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 6 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, let's start. Good 3 morning, everyone. So glad to see you. A hot, 4 summer day here in Washington, D.C. But this is 5 the U.S. Department of Energy's Commercial and 6 Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working 7 Group. How's the sound quality? Yes? 8 This I believe is the seventh meeting of 9 the working group here in 950 L'Enfant Plaza, 10 Washington, D.C. Today is June 17th, 2014. I'm 11 so happy to see you all here this morning. Why 12 don't we start with introductions around the room 13 and we'll see how good the -- these remote 14 microphones work? 15 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, U.S. Department 16 of Energy. 17 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power 18 and Conservation Council. 19 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, 20 representing the California Investor-owned 21 Utilities, which are Pacific Gas and Electric 22 Company, Southern California Edison Company, San

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 7 1 Diego Gas and Electric Company and the Southern 2 California Gas Company. 3 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 4 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, Northwest 5 Energy Efficiency Alliance. 6 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance 7 Standards Awareness project. 8 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural 9 Resources Defense Council. 10 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, of TACO. 11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT 12 Corporation. 13 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic 14 Institute. 15 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson Pump. 16 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem. 17 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve 18 Corporation. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Please? 20 MR. HU: Jiangang Hu, Rockwell 21 Automation. 22 MR. ALASCIO: Jeff Alascio from ABB.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 8 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremiah, introduce 2 yourself. 3 MR. FREEMAN: Jeremiah Freeman, New West 4 Technologies. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: And Emily over there as 6 well, our -- 7 MS. MARCHETTI: Emily Marchetti. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: -- webmaster. Please? 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, Lawrence 10 Berkeley National Lab. 11 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific 12 Northwest National Lab. 13 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: And those of you joining 15 us online, welcome. We wish for you to 16 participate in this meeting as possible, given the 17 technology and the content that's here. Emily, 18 how many joining us online? 19 MS. MARCHETTI: Six. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Six, Doug Potts being 21 one? Doug, you're unmuted. Welcome, glad you 22 could join us via the web.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 9 1 MR. POTTS: Good morning. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. I received an 3 email from Doug saying he wouldn't be here in 4 person. He intends to be here tomorrow and the 5 next day. Steve Rosenstock also sent a note saying 6 he'd be absent today. I don't know about the 7 subsequent dates. But we're trying to keep track 8 of everybody here and that's why anybody who 9 hasn't yet handed a business card to Brenda so we 10 can make a Xerox copy of it, if you pass one 11 forward, we'll hand them off to her. 12 Had a brief conversation with several 13 members this morning and they indicated that, for 14 one thing, they wanted to go through the packet 15 that was sent out yesterday in considerable 16 detail, particularly to understand the changes and 17 the implications of the changes. I had a brief 18 conversation with Tom Eckman and Al Huber and 19 Lucas Adin just before we started and I thought 20 maybe some combination of those individuals might 21 like to make opening remarks. 22 MR. HUBER: It's Al Huber, Patterson.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 10 1 There have been some changes since the last 2 meeting on these slides. For instance, the 3 savings from 0.25 quads to 0.35 quads and so 4 forth. And we want to understand why and what 5 happened there. 6 We're also curious we were told we were 7 getting three weeks ago a new calculator which we 8 have not seen. We assumed that you developed a 9 new -- our assumption is you developed a new 10 calculator, you didn't distribute it to us and 11 you've come up with these slides using it. Is 12 that correct? 13 MS. WIDDER: That is not correct. 14 MR. HUBER: That is not correct? 15 MS. WIDDER: Those slides are made using 16 the same calculator that you all still have. I 17 apologize or we apologize -- 18 MS. WILLIAMS: The slides and the 19 calculator are not really related actually. 20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, they're not -- yeah, 21 so the slides and the calculator are independent 22 things. You don't have an updated calculator but

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 11 1 that shouldn't affect the savings numbers. That's 2 not the reason that the numbers in the slides have 3 changed. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: The reasons the numbers 5 in the slides have changed are? 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Are we going through the 7 slides? 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, we could just go 9 through them. 10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, so I think we could 11 do two things maybe this morning. I sent out a 12 list of updates that were going to be made to the 13 calculator right after the last meeting. 14 MR. HANDZEL: Right, two-and-a-half 15 weeks ago. 16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, and there was I think 17 one or two other recommendations made and I 18 apologize for not having sent it out yet. We can 19 review those -- all those changes that are being 20 made to the calculator and I can try my best to 21 try to send one out today. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 12 1 MR. HUBER: The reason we want that from 2 our side is we was for that on guard technical 3 people to evaluate. 4 MS. WIDDER: Right. 5 MR. HUBER: And we need it. 6 MS. WIDDER: I completely understand 7 that. And so, I will do my best to get it sent out 8 today. I can also discuss how some of the changes 9 that we've implemented would affect the pass/fail 10 for pumps and based on our sort of playing with 11 the calculator, all of the changes that are being 12 made will be minor, so shouldn't affect the number 13 of pumps that pass or fail dramatically in any 14 category except for RSV, which I can discuss 15 later. 16 So we can do that. We can talk about 17 all the changes that will be made to the 18 calculator and I will do my best to get them all 19 implemented today and send you a new calculator. 20 And then Alison can talk about why there are 21 changes in the calculation of energy savings that 22 were distributed in the slides which is unrelated

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 13 1 to the calculator. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: All right, so that was 3 Sarah Widder. Now, Lucas Adin? 4 MR. ADIN: I don't think I have anything 5 to add to that. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. Alison, do you 7 wish to add anything here? 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Other opening remarks 9 before we dive into this content? 10 MR. ECKMAN: We just want to get an 11 understanding of why the numbers changed so much. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks, Tom. And 13 so let me remind you again, if you would please 14 say your name each time you speak for the record. 15 Then, shall we then begin with these slides? 16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? 18 MS. WIDDER: Slides first? 19 MR. FREEMAN: Okay. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah? And why don't you 21 come sit at the table or wherever there's -- the 22 microphone up there or wherever you can see it

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 14 1 best. 2 MR. FREEMAN: We're going to try New 3 Technologies. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, right. I think 5 that this was working earlier. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, now I can't see. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you need me -- which 8 way - - which way would be best for me to move so 9 you can see? 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Whatever. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: I can move back. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, okay. Well, this is 13 pointless. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: And everybody has a copy 15 of these slides, I believe. Just use the paper 16 one, yeah. 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: That way you won't have 19 to see it. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: It worked the first time. 21 Oh, was that the second one? Oh my gosh. Can you 22 guys actually see it? So the basic reason for the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 15 1 new numbers is that -- a smaller reason is that we 2 did finally merge -- the DOE and the HI database. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: You're referring to slide 4 number four. 5 MR. ADIN: What slide are you on? 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I'm going to move 7 back. Okay, whatever. Do you guys all have 8 packets? So, so slide 10 is the new C-values from 9 the DOE and the HI merged database. So those are 10 basically -- 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to try to 12 keep up so the people on the web can -- 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Slide 10. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: So basically these are 16 the C- values that this whole presentation is 17 based on. So they are slightly different from the 18 ones before. They're basically in between the DOE 19 and the HI C- values. We have another -- yes? 20 MR. ADIN: There's something we should 21 probably point out up front. We mentioned earlier 22 that the calculator and the C-values are not

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 16 1 connected directly to the energy savings 2 estimates, right? 3 MS. WILLIAMS: No, the C-values are 4 connected. 5 MR. ADIN: The C-values are connected. 6 I'm sorry. But the energy savings estimates are 7 based on levels. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, no. The energy 9 savings estimates depend on the C-values. 10 MR. ADIN: Okay, well, we should explain 11 how that works. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: So -- 13 MR. ADIN: I might be creating more 14 confusion, right? 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So the -- when we 16 changed the merged database, the spread of 17 efficiencies is different and so there are more 18 lower efficiency pumps in the HI database. 19 And so, when we combine the two 20 databases, we do get more pumps on the low end. 21 So, like when we look at -- so that the C-values, 22 particularly on the low end would be different

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 17 1 from the ones we were using before, which does 2 change the energy savings because it changes what 3 percentage of your population is at a lower energy 4 efficiency than it was before. So there is a 5 relatively modest change in energy savings. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: The distribution has 7 changed. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So in our analyses, 9 not only do we update the C-values, we actually 10 use the new database. So we're not using the same 11 database with updated C-values. We're using the 12 merged database, which has more pumps and more 13 pumps -- 14 MR. HANDZEL: So how did you make sure 15 that there wasn't duplication by merging them? 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, we binned our pumps 17 into the bins that were provided to us by HI and 18 NEMA and then we checked. 19 MR. HANDZEL: And your database is based 20 on all the surveys that were done last -- sorry, 21 Mark Handzel, with Xylem, excuse me. But your 22 surveys were based on all the data that you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 18 1 collected during the manufacturer surveys that you 2 did last summer? 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, they're the more 4 recent surveys that we did in the beginning of 5 this year I think. 6 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: You know, when we sent 8 out those Excel spreadsheets. 9 MR. HANDZEL: Then why is that data -- 10 because that was the same data that we reported to 11 HI. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, we don't have as 13 many manufacturers as you do. 14 MR. HUBER: Yeah, we've got more. 15 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: HI had more. 17 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so what we wanted 19 to do -- 20 MR. HANDZEL: So you used only the 21 manufacturers that you had confidentiality 22 agreements with or how did you decide who's in,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 19 1 who's out? 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, okay, so we 3 started with ours which is some number of 4 manufacturers fewer than you guys have. The 5 reason we merged them though is because in some 6 cases, especially for in-line, we actually had 7 more pump models in our database than was provided 8 to us by HI. 9 And so, we didn't know what happened to 10 them but we figured we might as well merge them 11 because we didn't except to have data that HI 12 didn't have but it seemed like we did. 13 So we decided to merge them. So we -- 14 because we have individual data for every pump and 15 the HI data we got was binned into, you know, 16 small flow and head bins. So we basically binned 17 our data into those same bins, compared all the 18 bins where some of the bins only have one pump in 19 them. 20 And so, for those we kept our data 21 because it was more exact whereas the binned data, 22 we didn't, you know, actually know what flow and

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 20 1 head it was. When there were two or three pumps in 2 a bin, if the HI data had more data, we kept it 3 and if our data had more data, we kept it. 4 And if they were the same, we again kept 5 our data because it's individual. So we went 6 through and excised all the duplicates in that 7 manner. 8 So it predominately keeps the data we 9 had under NDA because it is more disaggregated and 10 then it adds extra HI data that we didn't have. 11 So that was the process for that. 12 And I think we have another deck that 13 shows the C-values from before, from the two 14 different datasets and the merged one that we can 15 distribute later so you guys can look at. But 16 anyway, so that was one aspect of what changed is 17 that we're doing different population of pumps. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's pause, take 19 questions here on this revelation. 20 MR. ECKMAN: I think we understood that 21 the dataset was going to be merged and there would 22 be some change to the C-values.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 21 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, that's the 2 relatively modest change. 3 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I -- 4 MS. WILLIAMS: The larger change is that 5 there was an error in the original calculation. 6 So my apologies. Unfortunately, this rulemaking 7 has a different type of analysis than we typically 8 do. 9 We typically have these representative 10 units and a single cost curve. And anyway, this 11 LCC is much crazier than a usual one and we didn't 12 transfer it properly to the NIA because instead of 13 -- in the NIA, we have to use one cost curve and 14 one energy use curve for everything. 15 And anyway, I don't want to get into the 16 details. But we basically screwed it up the first 17 time. So it has been fixed. 18 So I apologize for that. We had done -- 19 we had done the NIA in about two days right before 20 the last meeting due to the time constraints, so 21 typically we would have done more error checking 22 on it before it went out. So I apologize.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 22 1 MR. BROOKMAN: It's good, because you 2 caught it. It's good. It's beneficial for all of 3 us. Questions? Additional questions here? 4 MR. STARR: So this is Louis Starr with 5 NEEA. So are the -- I think HI was talking about 6 PER 15 before and I think it corresponded with 7 DOE's PER and I forgot what that number was. How 8 much closer are those? How much is HI's per 9 levels and DOE's per levels now? Are they fairly 10 close? 11 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, we merged them. 12 MR. STARR: Right. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: So they're in the middle 14 somewhere. 15 MR. STARR: Okay. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: We have slides on that. 17 MR. STARR: Okay. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: If you need to look at 19 them, yeah, they're -- 20 MR. STARR: I just -- okay. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: -- basically somewhere. 22 In some equipment classes, they're closer to ours.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 23 1 In some equipment classes, they're closer to HI's, 2 just depending on the population. 3 MR. STARR: All right. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 5 MR. STARR: We can wait until -- 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Does it make sense to 7 start at the beginning of these slides and walk 8 through them or I think maybe we should do that. 9 Yeah. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so I don't -- 11 MR. BROOKMAN: You hesitate -- no, we 12 can do that. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: No, no, no. It's fine. 14 I'm not going to go through the first -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: You've got a question 16 down here. 17 MR. BARBOUR: Yes. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. 19 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, from TACO. 20 And correct me if I'm wrong on this, but the way I 21 understood your response is that the original data 22 that DOE used was based on the original surveys

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 24 1 that were done with a number of manufacturers 2 originally, correct? 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. (Affirmative.) 4 MR. BARBOUR: And I know that when we 5 did the HI survey results, there was a very strong 6 emphasis placed on the fact that we wanted test 7 data results as opposed to marketing data results. 8 And there was some question originally if the data 9 that was provided to HI was marketing data versus 10 test data for all manufacturers. 11 So my thought was if the HI data was 12 actually based upon test data and it showed 13 efficiency levels that were lower, are we 14 arbitrarily, by mixing in the potentially 15 marketing data into this population, are we 16 raising the bar higher than we should be? 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, that is a good 18 question. I think when we did the surveys, not 19 the ones last summer, but you know when we sent 20 out earlier this year the, like, Excel spreadsheet 21 surveys, a lot of -- most of them I would say came 22 to us approximately the same time they went to HI.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 25 1 So I -- and we did do duplicate 2 checking. So there were a few cases where there 3 were differences but I would say at least 95 4 percent of the -- probably more than that. I'm 5 just, like, guessing -- was the same data because 6 it came within, like, a week span. 7 So it is possible there is marketing 8 data in there but I think that's sort of, you 9 know, this is the first rulemaking and what's 10 maybe going to happen is when this goes into 11 effect, then the data that comes in next time will 12 actually all be tested because it has to be and 13 then it's unclear what you will find in the next 14 rulemaking. 15 But I mean, when you have marketing data 16 that's different from your test data, there's not 17 really much we can do about it I would say. I 18 mean, we were interested in whether the data we 19 had was higher than it actually is. But we have 20 no way short of the few pumps we have purchased to 21 identify that, so. 22 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour again

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 26 1 with TACO. So what you're saying is you're not 2 really able to identify definitive original DOE 3 data that you used was marketing data. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean, I only know 5 what was given to me. I don't know if it was test 6 data or marketing data. 7 MR. BARBOUR: And you're not able to 8 segregate out the HI matching pump versus your 9 dataset. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so I'm -- so when 11 -- yeah, so when we did the duplicate checking, 12 like I said, we did notice a handful, maybe two 13 handfuls of pumps that had different efficiencies. 14 We can't tell in all cases because if there's more 15 than one pump in a bin, I think we don't get the 16 exact number. 17 So because we got binned data, it's 18 difficult to do this analysis. But I think the 19 order we're talking about is 5 percent or less of 20 pumps that maybe had differences between the two 21 datasets. 22 MR. BARBOUR: Okay, thank you.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 27 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, it's pretty small. 3 Yes, Louis? 4 MR. STARR: So, Louis Starr with NEEA. 5 So there's an HI dataset and then a dataset that 6 you have with nondisclosure agreements. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. (Affirmative.) 8 MR. STARR: So then in general it sounds 9 like your nondisclosure agreement datasets had 10 probably higher efficiency values on average than 11 HI? Would that be an accurate -- if the C-values 12 are -- 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so I don't think it 14 was the individual pumps had higher efficiency 15 values. It was that there was a larger spread of 16 pumps in the HI data. So they had, like, seven -- 17 they had some number of manufacturers that we 18 didn't have and some of those seemed to be lower 19 efficient pumps. 20 So it's not that there was a change. In 21 the manufacturers that were both -- that were 22 across both datasets, there was very minimal

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 28 1 change. Like I said, I think probably fewer than 2 5 percent of pumps changed, probably fewer than 2 3 percent, you know. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. What 6 you - - again, what you see here is that our 7 dataset is much larger and the original people 8 that they -- that they talked to under NDA were 9 mostly the market leaders. 10 MR. HANDZEL: It's the biggest guys too. 11 MR. HUBER: The biggest guys, general 12 efficiencies are higher anyway. So with our 13 dataset, we went out to the entire population of 14 pump manufacturers and asked them for data. Now, 15 we didn't get it from all of them but we got it 16 from a lot of them. And a lot of them don't have 17 as high efficiency. So I think that's why you see 18 that. It's probably more representative of the 19 total pump -- 20 MR. HANDZEL: Industry. 21 MR. HUBER: -- industry. But anyway, 22 that's -- I think that explains the difference. I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 29 1 don't think it's so much market data versus test 2 data because we caution all of our members who've 3 got the NDAs and all of our members who 4 participate in both the HI and Navigant's 5 documents, that they should use test data and not 6 use market data or they may find themselves in 7 trouble. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, they might have made 9 an error. 10 MR. HANDZEL: So Alison, excuse me, one 11 more question. Mark Handzel, from Xylem. So you 12 mentioned with the pumps you're testing, so what 13 have you done with that and how is that going? 14 MS. WILLIAMS: That was really for test 15 procedure development, sorry. 16 MR. HANDZEL: Okay, so nothing -- you're 17 not going back and trying to correlate data? 18 Okay. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Not for the standard, 20 yeah. 21 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Should we start at

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 30 1 the beginning of these slides and just as needed? 2 Yes, let's start on the first page. Do you want 3 to -- 4 MS. WILLIAMS: No, I'm going to skip the 5 first page. We all know this. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: I think this -- nothing 7 significant has changed here, correct? 8 MR. ADIN: The first slide is basically 9 just a summary of things that we already made 10 decisions on. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so then moving -- 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, slide three is just 13 basically a reminder that for all these results, 14 we're looking at the same PER level across all 15 equipment classes. But obviously you can pick and 16 choose from amongst those. 17 So if, you know, this is basically just 18 the nomenclature thing we used for DOE but, like, 19 when we have -- when we're not showing results by 20 equipment class, they're all for the same PER 21 level whereas if you wanted to, you could say PER 22 25 for three pumps and PER 30 for three pumps and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 31 1 combine those into one number. So this is 2 basically just saying that right now everything is 3 the same across the board. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Please? 5 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, 6 ITT. So I don't recall this term "trial standard 7 levels." Is that something new? 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Yeah, so it's a 9 DOE -- it's a term we use in DOE's analysis. 10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: They're combining -- so 12 what we've been looking at for PER is we would 13 typically call efficiency levels and then there's 14 for some reason DOE has this terminology where you 15 combine different efficiency levels into different 16 TSLs. 17 Now, often we combine them in ways like 18 we pick the efficiency level from each equipment 19 class that has the highest energy savings with 20 positive NPV or something like that. But in this 21 case, NPV is positive across everything. So 22 there's not really -- the ways we would typically

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 32 1 use TSLs aren't really applicable to this 2 rulemaking I would say. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 4 MR. ADIN: Yeah, maybe a better way to 5 say it is it's a way of packaging a combination of 6 proposals -- 7 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. 8 MR. ADIN: -- across different 9 individual products that are all part of the same 10 rule in a way that you can analyze the impact of 11 the entire rule, understanding that the standard 12 levels might be a bit different for each different 13 product class or whatever it is that you're 14 looking at, so that you can make a decision on the 15 overall rule. 16 MR. CAPPELLINO: So, Charlie Cappellino. 17 So, so the packaging is basically done -- it's at 18 the discretion of the group to try and come up 19 before with a recommendation to move forward. 20 MR. ADIN: Yes. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 22 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. All right, thank

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 33 1 you. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, and so, if the 3 packaging were different, then obviously the total 4 NES and NPV would change -- 5 MR. CAPPELLINO: Sure. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: -- depending on what you 7 were combining. 8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: So I just wanted to lay 10 out at the beginning what we're combining. 11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thank you. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So, slide four is 13 basically the overarching national and 14 manufacturer impacts. So Chris isn't here today. 15 The MIA also changed slightly to reflect shipment 16 weighting of models. So I think that's a little 17 bit different than what you've seen before also. 18 And as we already discussed, the energy savings 19 and consequently the NPV is different. 20 But you know, the NPV is still 21 increasing across all TSLs. So the consumer 22 impacts are not really a limiting factor here and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 34 1 you can see the manufacturer impacts changing. 2 And I think the graph on the next page is probably 3 useful to look at for the MIA, that you've seen 4 that one before. 5 MR. ECKMAN: Sorry, can you go back to 6 the energy savings? 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 8 MR. ECKMAN: And where was -- the 9 difference is pretty stark between the prior 10 estimates. It's threefold higher. So can you 11 explain in a little more detail how that happened? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Refer to the line. That 13 was Tom. 14 MR. ECKMAN: Line two where it was by 15 TSL. So it was 0.25 quads less than and now it's 16 0.09 quads at such and such across that line. Can 17 you explain why -- 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. I mean, so that's 19 what I already explained, right. There's the 20 modest change from the database and there's the 21 much larger change from the error that we have 22 made.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 35 1 MR. ECKMAN: Not only the industry 2 present value but the calculation of the energy 3 associated with that change. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, no, this is 5 primarily really related to the -- it was -- 6 MR. ECKMAN: Related to the energy. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: -- energy and not the 8 national present value, yeah. It was being -- not 9 being imported correctly. So I believe that this 10 is a much more accurate number. 11 MR. ECKMAN: At least more correct. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 14 MR. HANDZEL: Modest is the key word. 15 MR. ADIN: So it's reasonable to say 16 that the numbers, had we done it that way the last 17 time, closer to what these are. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: They would have been 19 slightly lower. But they would have been closer. 20 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I should have 22 probably run it both ways to check and see. But

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 36 1 yeah, I think there's -- maybe there's like 0.1 -- 2 well, I don't -- yeah, yeah, so. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: 0.01. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Anyway, yeah, I mean, 5 yeah, I can -- all I can do is apologize. I mean, 6 there was a very rapid pace for us, so. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, there was a lot of 8 time pressure last time produced at NIA, we should 9 all acknowledge. Al Huber? 10 MR. HUBER: Is this going to be the 11 final, when you send out the new calculator and 12 when you've looked at these C-values, is this the 13 final, final? 14 MS. WILLIAMS: So I would say it's 15 mostly final. I think we have agreed before that 16 there is some tweaking we might need to do on, 17 like, the RSV values to make sure that it's 18 equivalent to the EU baseline. But these actually 19 don't include any savings from RSV, so. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: So it's like 95 percent 21 final. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, and so, I would

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 37 1 say, like -- 2 MR. ECKMAN: So if there's a crosswalk 3 between the NIA and the -- 4 MR. HUBER: There's not a crosswalk in 5 any of these. Okay. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: So -- 7 MR. HUBER: But what I'm saying, I guess 8 what I'm saying on the industry's behalf -- 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 10 MR. HUBER: We -- for us to agree to 11 anything, the target has to stop moving. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So what I would 13 say is that I think what you can potentially do is 14 agree to, you know, that you want to go to PER 25 15 or something and we might tweak the C-value ever 16 so slightly to make sure we're there. But in 17 general, the impacts of going to PER 25 are going 18 to be virtually the same as they are here. 19 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. Why 20 can't you do that now? I mean, why do we have to 21 wait? 22 MS. WILLIAMS: You don't have to wait.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 38 1 MR. HUBER: We continually get different 2 figures every time we meet. If we -- if you know 3 we've got to go to a certain level and it's got to 4 be one of these others, I don't want to agree to a 5 level that you're going to tweak and really 6 becomes another level. 7 You understand? That we do not want. 8 As an industry, we do not want that. We want some 9 surety here that when you say 25, I give it to my 10 technical people and that's what they get. They 11 don't get something else. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: So -- okay, so what I 13 will say is the C-values on slide 10, I mean, if 14 you guys want to agree with those, we won't tweak 15 them anymore. But the only thing I said -- the 16 reason I mentioned that about RSV and to some 17 extent VTS is because we have limited data. 18 And so, we had received some 19 manufacturer feedback in the past that maybe our 20 C-values weren't very good. But I would say for 21 end suction close- coupled, frame-mounted and in22 line, we are -- like we can call those final if

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 39 1 you guys agree with them. 2 RSV we're not calculating energy savings 3 for so it's sort of irrelevant. Well, it's not 4 irrelevant but it has nothing to do with the 5 numbers, the results. And Dan, do we think the 6 VTS C-values are okay? 7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant. 8 The issue with the VTS, so we have good data on 9 3,600 and we wanted to -- what the group agreed to 10 last meeting in principle was that we would set 11 the 1,800 speed equal to the 3,600 speed so long 12 as there weren't any issues seen with pumps 13 failing under 1,800 that wouldn't have failed 14 under 3,600. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 16 MR. WEINTRAUB: So that was the -- 17 MS. WILLIAMS: So actually, all the pump 18 categories for which we have impacts for, we could 19 consider final right now and the ones that are 20 still in question, we're not calculating any 21 impacts. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: That's RSV?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 40 1 MS. WILLIAMS: And VTS 1,800. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay. 3 MR. HUBER: It's my understanding that 4 our group agrees with that, with what he said. So 5 if that's what we're going to do, why don't we do 6 that and know what that is and be done? 7 MS. WILLIAMS: For the VTS? Yeah, I 8 mean, I think we want to. 9 MR. HUBER: And the RSV. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: And because the -- so 11 when the calculator goes -- I think you maybe 12 don't want -- we would -- 13 MR. HUBER: I don't want any changes. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, okay. 15 MR. HUBER: When I agree to a PER with 16 the NGOs, when we agree, we want to be done. We 17 don't want to see another set of figures that 18 change. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So for all the 20 ones that the NIA and the MIA is calculated for, 21 we can call those done. It's the ones that we 22 don't have impacts calculated for that maybe are a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 41 1 little bit more problematic. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay? 3 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve. I 4 don't -- I think there's still some discussion to 5 be had on the industry net present value. Going 6 back from the slide that Chris put forth last 7 meeting, the flat markup recovery and cost 8 recovery markup levels were significantly worse 9 than they're showing now. 10 And during the teleconference, I did ask 11 Chris specifically what caused the change. And he 12 added motors into that. And he marked up those 13 motors at the exact levels as pumps, which is a 14 complete incorrect level to raise motors. There's 15 no way that the markups that he used, which were 16 the same for pumps, would be the same for motors, 17 just not what it seemed. So I would then say that 18 these INPV levels are dramatically overstated. 19 MR. WEINTRAUB: I'm going to speak to 20 that. So Dan Weintraub, Navigant. After hearing 21 those comments last meeting, we went out and 22 surveyed manufacturers that had given us markup

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 42 1 data on pumps and then got responses on their 2 motors' markups and we found comparable numbers, 3 so based on the survey size that we had. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: How many -- can you tell 5 how many you surveyed? 6 MR. WEINTRAUB: More than three, because 7 there were people who had given us exact markup 8 numbers in their original surveys. If anyone else 9 wants to volunteer more data, what the exact 10 actual numbers - 11 MR. HANDZEL: So Mark Handzel. I 12 haven't responded because I went back and said I 13 want these numbers looked at more closely. So 14 we're still trying to make sure that we give you 15 accurate numbers. 16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay. 17 MR. HANDZEL: But I did look at what we 18 supplied you and confirmed that's what you have. 19 But we're going back and looking at them again. 20 And obviously in some cases we struggled because, 21 you know, the pump is lumped in with the motor. 22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 43 1 MR. HANDZEL: You know, so all we have 2 is an overall markup. 3 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, and when there is 4 an overall markup, then the assumption has to be 5 it's value in/value out. 6 MR. HANDZEL: Right. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought Dan's logic, or 8 Jay's logic was compelling. So and you're saying 9 but the data doesn't support his logic. 10 MR. WEINTRAUB: The data that we have 11 and I can't speak to which manufacturers give us 12 data, which don't. But the data that we were 13 given, that's what we have. We also have, if 14 you're looking at total INPV, so if Chris used -- 15 I don't know the details of everything but he 16 used. But we had the total revenues of the 17 industry as given to us by HI also. 18 So you can see how those match up 19 because originally we had no motors which we had 20 backed down to no revenues without motors. We 21 actually have from HI revenue including motors. 22 That's what the survey was.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 44 1 MR. BROOKMAN: HI -- pardon me. Al 2 Huber, please? 3 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. I 4 think what you're seeing here is a difference of 5 philosophies between some of the companies in the 6 way they mark up product. Some of the companies 7 combine the motor and pump and put out one markup. 8 Those that sell a lot of what we call 9 bare pumps without motors generally mark their 10 pumps up very high and their motors down as low as 11 10 percent or less. And that's -- but in the end, 12 if you combine the two, you end up pretty close to 13 where the others are just marking it all up the 14 same markup. 15 Do you understand what I'm saying? In 16 other words, somebody uses 35 and 10, somebody 17 uses 20 and 25. They end up in the same place in 18 the marketplace. And I think it's just a -- just 19 their philosophy of the way they mark their 20 product up. 21 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. And I'll add to 22 that it's the impact of those type of changes. So

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 45 1 we're looking at some motor costs -- motor cost of 2 the product of about 30 to 40 percent of the whole 3 product cost and then we're talking about the 4 markup on top of that. 5 It's a small -- then it's the percentage 6 of the total revenues is what we're dealing with 7 here. So it is -- it could be significant if it 8 was a large change but the changes that seem to be 9 implied here don't seem to be large in value. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Louis Starr? 11 MR. STARR: So would it be -- I'm 12 guessing that the large pumps that you sell that 13 are separate from the motor are more likely not to 14 stick the markup together. So you have a 30 15 percent markup on the combination pump and motor. 16 That's not less likely because if you sell them 17 separately, someone would just buy the motor 18 separately and put them together and they don't 19 want to pay a little bit of markup. 20 So you can't mark up the big motors with 21 them and that's probably what Flowserve sells a 22 lot of is big pumps and big motors. So one could

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 46 1 think that you could probably split up the markup 2 based upon market share of pumps sold with motors. 3 So if 80 percent of the market's pump 4 sold with motors, you could use a larger markup 5 and for the 20 percent of the market that's not, 6 you could use a smaller markup that's not sold 7 with the motor. 8 But I think that's kind of what Al was 9 saying is that sort of when you get done with 10 that, it ends up -- the average of those two will 11 end up being the same number, but so I don't know. 12 I don't know, does Jay -- I kind of would like to 13 hear what you have to say about that thought. 14 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve. I 15 just find it surprising that the data indicated 16 that with the pump and motor, the markup is 17 consistent with the levels that are shown on the 18 slide five of the previous discussion. 19 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, the 1.33, 1.34 or 20

-- 21 MR. SIVIGNY: The 1.34, 1.35, combined 22 pump motor, those seem -

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 47 1 MR. WEINTRAUB: And you have to 2 remember, we do have a range of markups where some 3 manufacturers are marking it up less. Some are 4 marking it up more. 5 MR. SIVIGNY: Okay. 6 MR. WEINTRAUB: So everyone's going to 7 fall -- in comparison to those just alone on their 8 pump, everyone's going to fall differently than 9 those on what we see on that page. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino? 11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, 12 ITT. I was just going to confirm Louis' 13 observation that when you sell bare pumps and the 14 cost from head to choice of either buying the 15 motor themselves or it might be even a distributor 16 buying a motor and putting it with the pump, 17 generally then in that market dynamic, the pump 18 markup is different than the motor markup. 19 Right, so you tend to keep the motor 20 markup smaller so that you can actually get some 21 of that business as a pump manufacturer as opposed 22 to the customer buying it themselves. So if you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 48 1 have your motor up price too high, then anybody 2 else can go in and basically buy that motor 3 directly from somewhere else and you don't get any 4 of that business. So that's the dynamic. 5 MR. WEINTRAUB: Just to step back one 6 second and put it all in perspective, the big 7 change that we're seeing is that motor revenues 8 are included. That's the big jump from previously 9 because that's revenue stream that was not there 10 previously and then the markup is incremental on 11 top of just saying motor revenues themselves. So 12 that's the big change. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: So, thank you, Dan. 14 Additional questions on this? I think we're 15 gaining some clarity here. I'm still on slide 16 number four. It could be because I'm noting that 17 individuals are making notes to themselves on that 18 slide. 19 I want to make sure we -- any additional 20 questions on this important slide, the NIA and MIA 21 results? Okay, so then, and Alison, you were 22 referring to slide number five, I believe, the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 49 1 chart, the -- 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean, the chart 3 has the -- the chart -- the percent change in 4 industry INPV on slide four is what's shown in the 5 graph on slide five. So it's just a visual way of 6 looking at it. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay? 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: So if no one has any 11 other MIA questions I can't answer? So slides six 12 and seven are the updated average LCC sayings and 13 payback periods for the two different scenarios we 14 looked at. The numbers have changed. 15 In some cases, they're higher. In some 16 cases, they're lower but in general consumer 17 impacts are still positive across the board. So I 18 don't know that we need to look at -- and that's 19 true for both the no cost recovery and the full 20 cost recovery scenario. 21 MR. STARR: So the point of -- oh, 22 sorry.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 50 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr? 2 MR. STARR: The point of the slide -- of 3 the graph on the two, the green and yellow line, 4 is this just the change from your last NPV 5 scenarios, right? 6 MS. WILLIAMS: No, this is the change to 7 industry NPV as a result of the standard. So it 8 is different from before but it's not showing 9 change from before. It's showing change from 10 industry NPV due to the standard. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you repeat that? 12 I'm sorry. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, Dan? It is updated 14 results but the percent change refers to change 15 from industry net present value. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Are we staying with this? 17 Is everybody -- I'm seeing a few furrowed brows 18 here as I like cast my eyes around the room. Yes, 19 Greg Case? 20 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. This is still 21 based on the shipments increasing at some rate. 22 Did we ever work out that shipments model?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 51 1 MS. WILLIAMS: It's based on a model 2 that went from, like, 420,000 in 2012 up to around 3 700,000 in -- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thirty years. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: In 30 years, yeah. Is 6 that right? 7 MR. HUBER: What is that increase, that 8 annual? 9 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't have it on me. 10 MR. HUBER: It's about 3 percent? 11 MR. SIVIGNY: It was less than three. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Less than three. 13 MR. SIVIGNY: We calculated the CGAR 14 last meeting. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, Steve was 16 calculating it. Do you want me to pull up the 17 numbers? 18 MR. WEINTRAUB: It's less than three. 19 MR. HUBER: That's reasonable. 20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Less than three. 21 MR. HUBER: Yeah, that's reasonable. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 52 1 MR. ECKMAN: So, was he -- this is Tom 2 Eckman. Was this what he intended in the orange 3 or yellow line? Last time I recall that it dipped 4 below zero as we got out to maybe PER 40. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think he updated 6 those for the webinar though. 7 MR. ECKMAN: He did. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: And it was our -- I think 9 for the webinar he included the motor in his 10 already. 11 MR. ECKMAN: So this is largely a 12 function including the motor. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 14 MR. ECKMAN: And there wasn't a -- not 15 that that's particularly relevant for discussion. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: There was in the webinar. 17 MR. HUBER: There was, there was. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 19 MR. HANDZEL: This is almost exactly 20 what he showed at the webinar. 21 MR. HUBER: My question has -- 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 53 1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, I don't know but 2 one of the things he chalked it up to was 3 uncertainty in the model as things diverge. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 5 MR. WEINTRAUB: That's all I can say. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Dan Weintraub. 7 Okay. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: If you guys need to 9 negotiate up there, we can get further -- 10 (Laughter.) 11 MR. BROOKMAN: So just so I understand, 12 and I probably understand these machinations less 13 than about anybody in the room, these figures on 14 slide 10, with the exception of RSVs and the VTS 15 1,800, if we establish these or fix these values 16 and say going forward this is what we will accept 17 as the values for this working group, that will 18 also fix the NIA and MIA results? 19 MS. WILLIAMS: It will fix them for the 20 purposes of this negotiation. I'm going to throw 21 this out here just so you know. What gets 22 published in the NOPR might not be exactly these

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 54 1 numbers. We have to meet requirements from OIRA 2 and other entities. 3 So you know, there may be some -- I 4 don't expect, like, anything to go negative or 5 anything like that. But we can't guarantee that 6 it's going to be exactly 0.64 when the NOPR gets 7 published just because of some analytical things 8 we may be required to introduce through the review 9 process, but -- 10 MR. HANDZEL: Can you elaborate on OIRA? 11 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry, the office of 12 something regulatory affairs? 13 MR. ADIN: Information and Regulatory 14 Affairs. It's part of the Office of Management 15 and Budget. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, we anticipate that 17 this working group is going to achieve a consensus 18 and make a recommendation to ASRAC. ASRAC's going 19 to then do its business and hopefully confirm work 20 on this working group's recommendation. You're 21 saying that beyond that, to meet DOE's statutory 22 obligations, you might need to make further

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 55 1 refinements. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: But they're refinements. 4 They're not -- right? 5 MR. HANDZEL: Tweaks. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so basically -- 7 yeah, I'm just saying this. I mean, I think in 8 generally you can consider them fixed. But I just 9 wanted to say it so that you're not surprised 10 later. But like, the NIA, for example, is really 11 simple right now. 12 And I need to introduce some slightly 13 complicating factors that will have minimal 14 impacts on the results but I can't do it on this 15 short a timeframe. So there will be some 16 refinements, as Doug said, later but it will not - 17 - I will guarantee you that it will not change the 18 relationship between the levels or the general 19 magnitude or anything like that. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: You heard Al Huber asking 21 for some certainty on behalf of the manufacturers' 22 caucus. These refinements, or as Mark Handzel

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 56 1 wanted to qualify them as tweaks, they're -- how 2 would you -- how would you characterize them 3 quantitatively? 4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I think, 5 Al, you were referring mostly to the C-values, 6 having those fixed, not so much the energy savings 7 being tweaked a little bit. 8 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I don't really -- 9 MS. WILLIAMS: So we can fix the C10 values, yes. 11 MR. HUBER: That's not a problem. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks, Joanna. 13 Meg, you're next in the queue. 14 MS. WALTNER: So that added to my first 15 question. But let me -- I wanted to ask about the 16 INPV analysis a little more, if we can move back 17 to that. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, before you do, did 19 you want in here, Lucas? 20 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, it was just a 21 question for a follow-on. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 57 1 MR. ADIN: More for the manufacturer's 2 side since this is clearly an item of significant 3 interest and importance to getting to a decision 4 on a standard level. For the purpose of C-values, 5 I mean, we've modified them only where we've 6 received input. I mean, we came up with values 7 based on the best data we had and we received some 8 feedback that maybe those weren't good. 9 And so, now this is now the best, you 10 know, that we can come up with, with what we have 11 and we believe they're as nearly correct as we can 12 make them. And so, if there's general agreement on 13 where those stand now and it would be useful or 14 important to the group to getting to a decision, I 15 mean, we can do that earlier rather than later if 16 we want to make sure that those are fixed in 17 place. 18 MR. HUBER: As long as they're fixed in 19 place, we don't have a problem. We just want them 20 fixed, as long as we make the decision. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so let's -- on that 22 note, let's go to slide 11 also because I want to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 58 1 be clear before you guys agree to fix them. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, but just a second. 3 Meg, are you in this? 4 MS. WALTNER: Sure, sure. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, keep going? Keep 6 going, okay. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: So we haven't talked 8 about this before but the table on slide 11 shows 9 actually how many -- what percentage of pumps we 10 think our C- values are cutting off. 11 So they're not exact to the levels, like 12 the 25 is cutting off between 25 and 27 percent. 13 The reason for this is that it's mathematically 14 extremely difficult to solve this problem to 15 figure out the C- value. I'm not going to go into 16 it. But we basically ignored the motor losses 17 when setting these C-values. 18 And so, then when you actually include 19 the motor losses, you get a slightly different 20 percentage cut out of the market. So just for 21 transparency sake, these are the actual numbers 22 that we think these C- values are cutting off.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 59 1 So the C-values we have listed under PER 2 25 are really probably cutting off more like 26 3 percent. It's a rough number either way because we 4 don't have the entire market. So these are really 5 just our best guesses regardless of the percentage 6 that's different. 7 So it may be that in the market it's 8 really 23 percent or it's really 28 percent and we 9 just don't have the whole market. So I would 10 consider this sort of like noise in the general 11 uncertainty of it. 12 But I just wanted to be transparent 13 about what this is doing. And so, we can change 14 those if it's important. But if you're 15 negotiating somewhere between 25 and 40 or 10 and 16 25 or, you know, if you're not negotiating one of 17 these exact levels anyway, you know, we'll have to 18 calculate C-values for those exact levels. 19 So we can fix the C-values. I'm just -- 20 you know, want to be transparent on what we think 21 they're doing to the market right now. 22 MR. CASE: Well --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 60 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case? 2 MR. CASE: Oh, I'm sorry. Greg Case, 3 Hydraulic Institute. So when you add in the motor 4 losses, do you think those values go up or down? 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, we -- so these -- so 6 the numbers on slide 11 are including the motor 7 losses. 8 MR. CASE: Okay, they're in there. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So when we set the 10 C- values, we set it not considering motor losses. 11 But then we went in using the calculator with all 12 our data to see what it actually is just because 13 of, like, this mathematical problem for individual 14 pumps. 15 So these are -- the ones on slide 11 are 16 including motor losses. So whereas we set the C17 values on slide 10 to try to get exactly to 25 18 percent, we don't exactly hit it is basically. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, so just to clarify 20 or just to confirm, your first sub-bullet at the 21 top of the page under the big bullet, it says this 22 is a time consuming mathematical problem to solve

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 61 1 if including motor losses. So the motor losses 2 aren't included -- are included but some 3 additional refinements are needed? 4 MS. WILLIAMS: No. So I'm sorry. This 5 is like -- the mathematical problem is only on our 6 part to calculate these initial C-values. It's 7 not a mathematical problem, like, to calculate for 8 your own pump whether it passes or fails at a 9 given C-value, so 10

-- 11 MS. WIDDER: It's basically because we 12 have the minimally compliant pump in the 13 denominator. Because we -- we actually talked 14 about this way back when we were talking about 15 denominators. So we have to know what the PER for 16 a minimally compliant pump is including motor 17 losses in order to know what your PEI is for a 18 pump. And so it's either -- 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Circular. 20 MS. WIDDER: So you have to solve it and 21 then for every pump in the universe and then guess 22 you might be near 25 and then redo it and redo it

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 62 1 and redo it. 2 MR. ADIN: It's an iterative. 3 MS. WIDDER: And because the motor 4 losses, as we discussed last time, is this really 5 lovely cubic equation, it just makes it immensely 6 complex to solve. And so, it's still iterative -- 7 well, it's less iterative. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: No, we're not -- we 9 haven't iterated, so. 10 MS. WIDDER: Right, we haven't iterated. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: We could but we do not 12 need to. 13 MS. WIDDER: Right. We accept them with 14 like a pretty close, not including motor losses 15 and then when you account for the motor losses, it 16 changes it like 1 or 2 percent. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: So now I'm confused, no 18 surprise. Looking at slide number 10, or slide 19 number 11, those clarifying remarks that you made 20 about how those were derived, how does that affect 21 this group's ability to fix the figures in slide 22 10?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 63 1 MS. WILLIAMS: I think they can fix them 2 as long -- I just wanted to be transparent about 3 what they're fixing. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: That would -- 5 MS. WILLIAMS: So we don't have to 6 adjust anything. We can leave it as it is. As 7 we've all said, we think it's essentially in the 8 noise as to what's really happening in the 9 population. I just didn't want you -- want you 10 guys to think we were throwing one over on you or 11 something like that, so. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's very useful, very 13 helpful. And so, from the analyst perspective, is 14 there a downside in fixing the figures in number 15 10, as some in this room have expressed an 16 interest in doing? 17 MS. WILLIAMS: So all I would say is 18 that for RSV and for VTS 1,800, we might want to 19 not necessarily fix those at the moment in order 20 to achieve the goals that you've agreed on for 21 those. But again, there are no impacts for RSV and 22 VTS 1,800.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 64 1 So all of the impacts -- so there's 2 basically two different discussions. There's what 3 efficiency levels you want for all of the -- all 4 of the equipment classes that have impacts and 5 then there's exactly where you want to set the RSV 6 and the VTS 1,800 levels to do what you want those 7 levels to do, which is a bit of a different 8 animal. So we might want to try to separate those 9 two things. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, interesting. Okay, 11 Al, you wish to comment, question? 12 MR. HUBER: Well, I don't understand why 13 we'd want to do that. I don't -- I wasn't here 14 last meeting and I guess I don't understand 15 everything. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: OH, okay. 17 MR. HUBER: But I don't -- why VTS? 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so -- 19 MR. HUBER: You've got data on 3,600. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 21 MR. HUBER: And you know it's good and 22 we've agreed to set it at the 1,800 by the date

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 65 1 and the 2 3,600. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, so my understanding 4 is that you guys, or whoever was here, wanted to 5 set 1,800 so that the same pumps that fail at 6 3,600 also fail at 1,800. 7 MR. HUBER: That's fine. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: And we received a little 9 bit of feedback that the numbers we have right now 10 aren't really doing that. And we haven't -- but 11 we haven't received very much feedback on that. 12 So I think for that, the goal -- like 13 maybe your agreement for VTS 1,800 would be we 14 want to cut off the same pumps cut off in 3,600 15 and that might need a little more refinement. 16 MR. HANDZEL: So we wanted to look at -- 17 excuse me, Mark Handzel, from Xylem. We wanted to 18 look at that but we were waiting for the 2,300. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: I know, I know. I 20 apologize. 21 MR. HANDZEL: And so that's -- 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, and so that's why

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 66 1 I think there's two different things. So that's 2 the VTS and then the agreement for RSV, or not the 3 agreement but sort of the feeling was that we 4 wanted RSV to basically be equivalent to the EU 5 MEI 40. 6 And so that's what we're trying to do 7 with these C-values. But again, we might not be 8 exactly precise with those. So my understanding 9 is that those are the goals for VTS 1,800 and RSV. 10 And so, that's one discussion. 11 And then the goal for ESCC, ESFM, IL and 12 VTS 3,600 is to decide what PER level you want for 13 these and what impacts you're going to get out of 14 them. Did that help? So I don't know if it's be 15 just easier to like tackle those four first and 16 then make these general agreements for RSV and VTS 17 1,800, that maybe those will have to be slightly 18 tweaked still to achieve the intent that you want? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: So correct me what I'm 20 about to say here, okay, Alison? My recollection 21 from the last meeting was that the RSV category 22 was moving toward or close to the emerging EU

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 67 1 standard anyway, if there weren't any energy 2 savings there presumptively and so that's the 3 reason that's a separate matter. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. We are not going 5 to calculate energy savings for it because we're 6 going to assume we're setting it at the baseline 7 essentially, which is EU Lot 11, MEI 40. But we 8 just need to be sure that the C-values we pick are 9 really to the EU MEI 40. We could say these -- 10 you could if you wanted to vote out these things. 11 But as Mark said, you haven't seen the 12 updated calculator and so maybe it would be 13 worthwhile to agree on the intent and vote out the 14 exact C-values a little bit later. I mean, you 15 guys, whatever approach you guys want to do on 16 that would be fine. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we need to have a 18 brief caucus here or -- 19 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. So the 20 issue with the RSV, is it the difference between 21 50 and 60 hertz or -- 22 MS. WILLIAMS: It's also the difference

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 68 1 between MEI and PER. So we estimated a difference 2 but it's just an estimate. And so, you know, 3 we've gotten feedback from some manufacturers that 4 were like, we calculated which of our pumps fail 5 under the MEI and which of our pumps fail under 6 these C-values and it doesn't really match up, so 7 yeah. 8 I mean, it probably will never match up 9 completely exactly. Like, there might still be a 10 pump that passes in one and doesn't pass in the 11 other. 12 MS. MAUER: Yeah, okay. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: But we want to try to 14 limit that. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr? 16 MR. STARR: So I'm guessing the reason 17 the pump guys wanted to nail down all the C-levels 18 is probably some people that make those kind of 19 pumps also make the others and when they go to 20 crunch that data, they only want to crunch it 21 once. 22 And so, they probably can't, like, give

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 69 1 us some of the numbers now and give us some of the 2 numbers later. It'll probably be hard to get the 3 first set of numbers much less a second set of 4 numbers. So I'm betting they just wanted to give 5 them to them once and see how their pumps do is 6 what I'm guessing. 7 MR. HANDZEL: Well, between the last 8 meeting and the one before that, we went through 9 11 versions of the calculator. So remember, we 10 came in last time and we said we've got to stop, 11 you know. So we stopped but we didn't get the 12 12 versions. 13 So that's what -- you know, we wall 14 wanted to do one more version of the calculation 15 based on the changes we knew were coming so that 16 we could walk in here knowing where we stood. And 17 you know, yeah, I mean, we got a pretty good idea, 18 but yeah. 19 MR. HUBER: So we're ready to caucus if 20 you guys are. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: What do you think? 22 Fifteen minutes? Ten minutes? It's now 10:20.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 70 1 Let's say we'll resume at 10:45, okay? So thanks 2 for a good start on the day and thanks, Alison, 3 for all that clarification. And before we go, 4 Charlie Cappellino? 5 MR. CAPPELLINO: Is there places we can 6 go and have a discussion but we're not going to 7 have to go back through security and everything 8 else? Lucas, is there any? 9 MR. ADIN: Yeah, let me check. I know 10 there's an empty room down the hall. I'll make 11 sure it's open, if you want to use that one. 12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. 13 MR. ADIN: And everyone else can just 14 meet in here. 15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Because if you go down 16 to get coffee, then you've got to go back through 17 security. 18 MR. ADIN: Yeah, that's true. 19 MR. CAPPELLINO: And you can spend the 20 15 minutes just getting out and back, so. So just 21 down the hall? 22 MR. BROOKMAN: If anybody's going for

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 71 1 coffee, you have to go back through security. 2 Make sure you get your badge because you'll need 3 it. But you can do that. We'll have someone -- 4 we'll try to make sure that you don't have to wait 5 getting back in. Once you get through the 6 elevator, bam that door. 7 So other questions or clarifications 8 before we go to break, our caucus time as well. 9 We'll resume at 10:45. Okay, you want to search 10 around for a room? 11 MR. ADIN: Yeah, I'll check right now. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. 13 (Whereupon, the foregoing recessed 14 at 10:24 a.m., and resumed at 15 11:42.) 16 MR. BROOKMAN: So, you ready? Okay, 17 welcome back. During this morning segment, both 18 of the major caucuses had a chance to meet and I 19 was wondering if we have a report from either of 20 the caucuses or where we stand at this point. Tom 21 Eckman and Al Huber, which of you would like to go 22 first?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 72 1 MR. ECKMAN: We can both say we're 2 mostly in agreement. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Wait, wait, wait. 4 Before we go any further, let's applaud right now. 5 (Laughter, applause.) 6 MR. ECKMAN: Let's hit the high points 7 of agreement first and then we'll talk about 8 issues to be resolved. They're not disagreements, 9 they're just issues, bows to put around a package 10 that we need. So I think we're in agreement on 11 TSL 2 which is a 25 percent, 25 PER, 25 precisely. 12 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I want to clarify 13 that. When we say 25, we mean 25. We don't mean 14 27 and we don't mean 26. We mean 25. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: And you don't mean 25.2. 16 MR. HUBER: No, we mean 25. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: So, now the C-values are 19 not fixed. 20 MR. HUBER: They'll be fixed at 25. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 22 MR. ECKMAN: Whatever produces that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 73 1 result. 2 MS. WIDDER: As long as there's only one 3 that you have to iterate as. 4 MR. WEINTRAUB: We'll iterate together. 5 MR. HUBER: All right. 6 MR. ECKMAN: All right. So we're 25 7 point something, zero. 8 MR. HUBER: There you go. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Exactly. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11 MR. ECKMAN: All right, with a four-year 12 lead time. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 14 MR. ECKMAN: Effective date. And I 15 think that's the high level and I think Al and I 16 can state that that's -- we believe we'll garner 17 enough votes to pass around the table. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 19 MR. HUBER: Yes. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Are there any further 21 clarifications that the manufacturers' caucus 22 wishes to add?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 74 1 MR. HUBER: No, I think you need to move 2 for a vote on that. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 4 MR. STARR: There's something else about 5 the certification and that's more of a DOE thing. 6 MR. ECKMAN: Well, I think that's where 7 we have the certification and all of the test 8 results and stuff like that, we need to have that 9 as a second part of the term sheet. But we talked 10 about the stuff for ACEEE and those kind of 11 things. 12 MR. HUBER: Yeah. 13 MR. ECKMAN: So, but the standard level, 14 that's 25 in four. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Is that for all equipment 16 classes except for RS-V? 17 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, well, all the 18 remaining classes. 19 MR. HUBER: All classes except RS-V. 20 MR. ECKMAN: RS-V, right. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Al and - 22 MR. ECKMAN: Which would MEI equal

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 75 1 whatever the crosswalk is with MEI 40. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm looking at the 3 analytical team over here. Are there any other 4 clarifications that you think need to be made to 5 this proposal? Nothing additional? Okay. 6 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I just 7 wanted to just expand a little bit on kind of some 8 of the certification things. I think there's two 9 things we'd like to see. One is, you know, 10 voluntary early certification so that there's data 11 available for manufacturers who wish to certify 12 early for utility programs. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Just so I can clarify, 14 this is -- you wish to make this a part of this 15 proposal? 16 MR. HUBER: It can't be, can it? 17 MR. ECKMAN: I think we can -- I think 18 we ought to talk -- 19 MR. HUBER: I mean, we agreed with you 20 to do those things. 21 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think we ought to - 22

-

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 76 1 MR. HUBER: But I don't think it can be 2 part of this. 3 MR. HANDZEL: It can't be part of the 4 rulemaking. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like to close on this 6 proposal that's on the table unless you think it's 7

-- 8 MR. ECKMAN: I think we can put it on 9 the term sheet. It doesn't have to be a DOE 10 necessarily. 11 MR. HUBER: What do you mean by term 12 sheet? 13 MR. ECKMAN: The term sheet, we -- like, 14 the term sheet we have on circulators. We had an 15 item on there. We're going to take those on, 16 right? That's part of the DOE. That doesn't mean 17 it's this rulemaking. It means that there's a 18 rulemaking to handle circulators and cool pumps. 19 So that's this but so there's what I'd 20 call the statutory rule part which is the 25 in 21 four. That's the rule. And then there's other 22 things that we have on the term sheet that we come

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 77 1 to agreement on because we agreed that the 25 in 2 four would work as part of this package. 3 MR. HUBER: The only problem I have with 4 that, Tom, is I voiced to you out there we can 5 only speak for the companies that are here. 6 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. 7 MR. HUBER: We cannot speak for the 8 balance of them. And what we committed to and the 9 companies that are here, we're willing to do that. 10 But I can't -- I can't speak for the rest of the 11 industry on that subject. 12 MR. ECKMAN: I think what we're looking 13 for, and I'll check with my caucus here, but I 14 think what we're looking for is since you 15 represent a fair chunk of the industry, that would 16 be good enough. 17 MR. HUBER: I think what we will do, 18 depending on how long -- I mean, it's hard to say 19 if it's going to be a year-and-a-half after or two 20 years after, two-and-a-half years after. It just 21 depends on how long it takes people to get their 22 testing accomplished.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 78 1 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, and I think what we'd 2 like to do is get some certainty, make a 3 reasonable proxy for that date, say, you know, 4 starting three years out or whatever it is. 5 MR. HUBER: I think we probably can do 6 that. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: So Louis, Joanna's got 8 the floor. Joanna, do you want to continue? 9 MS. MAUER: Sure. So one piece was 10 giving manufacturers the ability to certify early 11 to DOE that there's data available -- 12 MR. STARR: Voluntarily. 13 MS. MAUER: Right, voluntarily. And 14 then the second piece that I think we've mentioned 15 before is I think we'd prefer this to be required 16 that at a minimum voluntary for manufacturers to 17 certify not just the PER, PEI but, you know, power 18 levels at 75, 100, 110, you know, all the kind of 19 inputs that go into calculating PER again so that 20

-- 21 MR. ECKMAN: So it would be the fields 22 that would be reported in that database.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 79 1 MS. MAUER: Right. 2 MR. ECKMAN: So we can talk about what 3 that is. But for our purposes running programs, 4 having the part load data allows us to create 5 calculators to make use of that data. 6 MR. HUBER: I'm not so sure -- I'm not 7 so sure the industry is going to want -- I mean, 8 we don't have any problem giving you -- giving you 9 consolidated data. But I'm not too sure that 10 everybody would be too excited about giving your 11 individual data. Is that -- 12 MR. HANDZEL: Well, each company will 13 have to report -- excuse me, Mark Handzel, from 14 Xylem. Each company will have to report in a 15 database this is some of the details. 16 MR. HUBER: To DOE. 17 MR. HANDZEL: To the DOE. 18 MR. HUBER: Yeah, right. That we 19 understand. 20 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, that's what we're 21 talking about. 22 MR. HANDZEL: That's what he's talking

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 80 1 about. 2 MR. ECKMAN: What you would report to 3 DOE would have -- 4 MR. HANDZEL: So we need to set that up 5 so you have - 6 MR. ECKMAN: Have the proper 7 information. 8 MR. HANDZEL: Have the efficiency at, 9 you know, whatever or percentages you need to do 10 the calculations. 11 MR. HUBER: So you can calculate the 12 extended products. 13 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, exactly. You got it. 14 MR. HUBER: We've got no problem with 15 that. 16 MR. ECKMAN: Okay, we can -- part of our 17 view, part of the terms you've got to list out so 18 that everybody's clear what that is. So when DOE 19 sets up the database, the right column headings 20 are there. 21 MR. HUBER: Okay, no problem. 22 MR. ECKMAN: Does that make sense?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 81 1 MR. HUBER: Yeah, no problem. 2 MR. STARR: The part of the reason is 3 more just that, if that DOE database, it's 4 credible and so then you can start awarding the 5 rebates and things earlier. 6 MR. HUBER: Right. 7 MR. STARR: So you can help the market - 8 - it would help out the market. 9 MR. HUBER: With an eye toward the 10 extended product more than anything else. 11 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, that's it. 12 MR. STARR: So it's really just a lot of 13 times we don't have that data. Then you can't 14 really set up a rebate program if you're not 15 really exact on what it is. 16 MR. HANDZEL: Right. But just remember, 17 so what we'll be reporting will be the pump 18 information. So then there'll have to be motor 19 information and drive information and other 20 sources. 21 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. 22 MS. MAUER: No. Well, just kind of --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 82 1 but you're going to be reporting the pump is with 2 a motor and drive you're selling it at, right? 3 MR. ECKMAN: We haven't talked about 4 this so I mean, that's -- 5 MR. HUBER: No, we haven't gotten down 6 to that yet. 7 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. 8 MS. MAUER: But those are part of the -- 9 those will go into the PER calculation. 10 MR. HUBER: We understand that. But we 11 aren't agreed to that yet. I mean, we haven't 12 discussed how we're going to do that. 13 MR. ECKMAN: We haven't even talked 14 about how we're going to set the database up, 15 yeah. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is -- this is 17 Gary - 18 - 19 MR. HUBER: Right now. I'm sorry, Gary. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: We have the hope and 21 expectation that the database is going to move to 22 reflect this extended product eventually. And we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 83 1 would hope that would be reported to DOE soon so 2 that we can try and develop voluntary programs. 3 MR. HUBER: Yeah. Well, the 4 calculations -- Al Huber, Patterson. The way -- 5 the way that they have set this up so far is that 6 you have a standard motor and you have a standard 7 control. So the only thing changing is the pump 8 itself. 9 MR. ECKMAN: Pump. 10 MR. HUBER: Somewhere in the future, I 11 suppose that will change. But at this point, 12 that's what -- that's what the regulations got to 13 be. So I assume, I don't know this, but a 14 manufacturer at some point could do his own 15 testing and he could -- he could put out whatever 16 he wants to put out. 17 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Exactly, 18 and we would hope that when it's available, 19 hopefully sooner would be reported to DOE. 20 MR. HANDZEL: So, Mark Handzel, from 21 Xylem. I just think we need to talk about this 22 because obviously, you know, we're going to get

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 84 1 into infinite combinations of motor drives and 2 pumps -- 3 MR. HUBER: Yeah, we've got to be 4 careful. 5 MR. HANDZEL: -- that is going to create 6 and administrative nightmare for the pump 7 manufacturers because, you know, every pump, you 8 know, could take five to six different motor 9 horsepower, obviously different speeds, different 10 voltages. 11 So all that's motor data. You know, so 12 it just -- you know, this thing is going to go 13 huge on the data reporting side. 14 MR. ADIN: So it sounds like there are 15 kind of two questions out there right now. One 16 is: can it be done that way? The other is: is it 17 going to be voluntary or is it going to be 18 required? Is that -- and is that -- 19 MR. ECKMAN: Our view -- there'll be a 20 requirement four years from now because they're 21 going to have to satisfy -- 22 MR. ADIN: On the pump side.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 85 1 MR. ECKMAN: On the pump side they'll 2 have to satisfy that. 3 MR. ADIN: Yeah, right. 4 MR. ECKMAN: And it's a question of what 5 goes in the database in addition to the bare pump 6 or to the rating per DOE test procedure. 7 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna -- 8 MR. ADIN: That's at a minimum what has 9 to be. 10 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, that's at a minimum 11 and the question is what in advance of that 12 timeframe can we agree to be made available so we 13 could use it in programs. 14 And I think we need to have probably 15 this afternoon and maybe tomorrow some discussion 16 about what those are because we haven't talked 17 about that part of the term sheet. What we talked 18 about right now was the level -- 19 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, because we've done 20 energy calculation based on a standard product, 21 so. 22 MR. ECKMAN: -- the leveling now --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 86 1 level and timing and now we need to talk about 2 adjuncts to that that would facilitate the 3 movement to those standard levels and use of those 4 extended product data. 5 MR. HUBER: Yeah, well I don't -- I 6 don't think there's a problem with us submitting 7 what's going to be required and we're going to 8 have to be -- you know, we're going to be required 9 to calculate it with a standard motor and a 10 standard control and we'll have to submit that. 11 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. 12 MR. HUBER: I mean, I assume that's the 13 case. 14 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, and that's what we 15 would use. 16 MR. HUBER: And that's probably what 17 you're going to get. 18 MR. ECKMAN: That's what we would use. 19 MR. HUBER: And that's kind of your 20 baseline. So anything about that you could call 21 premium or whatever you want to call it. 22 MR. ECKMAN: If you also offer that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 87 1 product with a premium motor or a different 2 control, that would be another listing and we 3 could use that. 4 MR. BOTELER: Yeah, switch to an ECM or 5 something. 6 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Rob, now Gary. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: We would want you to 9 have the capacity to voluntarily report this 10 extended product information and DOE to have the 11 capability of accepting it and including it in the 12 database. 13 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem. 14 I don't think we disagree. 15 MR. HUBER: If it's voluntary, I think 16 it's okay. 17 MR. HANDZEL: I think we just have to 18 figure out how we're going to do it and voluntary 19 and also understanding we may need to make some 20 compromises -- 21 MR. FERNSTROM: Sure. 22 MR. HANDZEL: -- to keep the reporting

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 88 1 at a reasonable level. 2 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. 3 MR. HANDZEL: -- because I think, you 4 know, how many models of pumps do we have in the 5 database right now? I mean, you know -- 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Three thousand. 7 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, and so -- 8 MR. HUBER: The permutations are 9 endless. 10 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, and that's all I'm 11 concerned about. I'm not disagreeing. I agree 12 that that's what we need to head towards. But how 13 do we make it manageable? 14 MR. ECKMAN: We deal with it on the HVAC 15 equipment where the inside coil and the outside 16 coil have 85 different -- 17 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, what I'd like to 19 see if we can do, since I'm hearing that more 20 discussion is needed on -- 21 MR. ECKMAN: On that part. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: -- on that part, I'd like

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 89 1 to move the question on what seems to be a joint 2 proposal. I'm about to restate it. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I clarify is four4 year lead time from publication of final rule? 5 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. 6 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. 7 MR. ADIN: Can I ask a favor? 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, yes. 9 MR. ADIN: Just before we move to a 10 vote, I'd like to consult very briefly with my 11 management, if you're moving in that direction. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: You want to wait until 13 after lunch? 14 MR. ADIN: No, I won't even need that 15 long. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. Just go do it. 17 MR. ADIN: Okay. Yeah, I know exactly 18 where they are. 19 MR. ECKMAN: Al's getting hungry. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: We're going to take 21 another - - just a very short break. Don't go any 22

--

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 90 1 (Whereupon, the foregoing recessed 2 at 11:54 a.m., and resumed at 3 11:55 a.m.) 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas is making a request 5 that we vote after lunch. 6 MR. ECKMAN: Okay. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: He's got one legal 8 question to run past general -- I'll let you speak 9 for yourself. 10 MR. ADIN: Yeah, well, I mean, that's 11 basically it. There's the question that we need 12 to get resolved on the legal side with respect to 13 the proposal that's on the table. We just want to 14 make sure that legally we can actually do that 15 before we vote on it, so -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me just note that 17 we made really good progress and I appreciate both 18 caucuses being effective as a caucus. I 19 appreciate the consultation that's gone on. 20 Let's go to lunch and we'll resume at 21 1:00 and then I'll restate the proposal and see 22 where we stand and any additional information that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 91 1 comes forward when we return from lunch we'll of 2 course entertain that. 3 Let me also confirm that the rules we 4 set for ourselves, our ground rules specify that 5 we need two-thirds of members to be a caucus. We 6 have that. I have the -- we are -- we have a 7 quorum and so let's break for lunch and we'll 8 return at 1:00. 9 MR. FREEMAN: And lunch, the best place 10 to go for lunch is the basement. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 12 MR. ECKMAN: A big food court down 13 there. 14 MR. ECKMAN: How do we get there? 15 MR. BROOKMAN: You'll need your badge 16 and then we'll -- Jeremiah and others will be 17 letting people in and out of the doors when you 18 get off the elevator and get stuck in that 19 corridor. 20 MR. FREEMAN: 1:00, or what are we 21 shooting for? 22 MR. BROOKMAN: 1:00.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 92 1 MR. FREEMAN: 1:00. 2 MR. HANDZEL: Will this room be secure 3 I'm assuming? 4 MR. ADIN: This whole floor is basically 5 secure, so. 6 MR. HANDZEL: Okay, got you. 7 MR. ADIN: Yeah, you can leave things in 8 here. That's the advantage of having key codes on 9 the doors, so, you know. 10 (Whereupon, the foregoing recessed 11 at 12:02 p.m., and resumed at 1:10 12 p.m.) 13 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're just about 14 all here. Let's resume. So just before lunch, we 15 had a request to delay the vote that was scheduled 16 until after lunch. So that's what we're going to 17 proceed with now. We have a joint proposal that's 18 on the table. And again, appreciation to both of 19 the caucuses for working together effectively. 20 And this is what I have listed as the 21 key points in this agreement, that the parties, 22 the members present have agreed to TSL 2 which is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 93 1 PER 25 and that C-values are to be fixed at 25.0; 2 that is, they're not -- they're going to stay 3 there. They're fixed. There would be a four-year 4 lead time based on the publication date of the 5 final rule and this applies to all classes except 6 RSV. Yes, Gary? 7 MR. FERNSTROM: So Doug, this is Gary. 8 I don't know that it's necessarily correct to say 9 that C-values will be fixed at 25.0. They'll be 10 fixed such -- at a value such that -- 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Got you. 12 MR. FERNSTROM: -- we get 25. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that 14 clarification. I'm looking and the analytical 15 team agrees with you. 16 MR. ADIN: That's right. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. 18 MR. ECKMAN: We all understand that now. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me note also that we 20 have 14 members present including Doug Potts on 21 the line who's joined us, who we have one 22 abstention, Steve Rosenstock already sent a note

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 94 1 that he would be abstaining from the votes today 2 as he is not here. So I'm about ready to call 3 this question. Are we ready to do this? Yes? 4 All those in favor of accepting the proposal that 5 I just elucidated, please -- 6 MR. ADIN: Can I wait -- I'm sorry, just 7 one minute. I'm waiting from a response from -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, Lucas is waiting for 9

-- 10 MR. ADIN: I apologize for that. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 12 MR. ADIN: Yeah. I did -- I will point 13 out that the legal question that I had brought up 14 earlier is resolved. It was just about the four15 year compliance period and that's the question 16 about that, so. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: So you're waiting on an 18 additional bit of information? 19 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 21 MR. ADIN: But I don't -- yeah, sorry. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we'll put that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 95 1 on hold just for the moment. 2 MR. ECKMAN: The buildup. 3 MR. ADIN: Yeah, sorry. 4 (Laughter.) 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Was there -- did you have 6 the -- is the RS-V one waiting on a separate vote 7 or -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't know -- no, I 9 didn't know what to do with RS-V. Let's talk 10 about that. 11 MR. ECKMAN: I think that we agreed that 12 it was going to be set equivalent to the MEI 40. 13 MR. HUBER: That's what I understood. 14 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. 15 MR. ADIN: So that should be part of -- 16 once we're voting on a separate part, it should be 17 part of this. 18 MR. HUBER: That should be part of it. 19 MR. ECKMAN: Should be part of it. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So Alison, restate 21 what you think -- what you just heard on RS-V for 22 RS-

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 96 1 V. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Just as Tom said, that we 3 should set the C-values equivalent to MEI 40 in 4 the 5 EU. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 7 MR. HANDZEL: Okay, and so would you put 8 that into the calculator so that we can run it and 9 make sure no problems are popping up? 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so we have -- 11 Sarah's working on it and it has our stab at it. 12 So please do give us feedback if that's not 13 actually what it's doing, yeah, or I mean, not 14 that you can tell individually but if we get 15 feedback from multiple manufacturers, we can -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 17 MR. STARR: So we're going to include 18 this information on certification as part of that 19 vote or no? 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I thought that 21 there was -- 22 MR. ECKMAN: Take that up.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 97 1 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we need that -- 2 to have -- I was thinking after we take the vote, 3 then we'll go and talk about the certification 4 stuff and the stuff that Joanna had raised, yeah, 5 yeah. Okay. 6 MR. ADIN: Sorry. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: That's okay. Let me -- 8 let's just do -- I'm thinking about the agenda 9 items following this vote today and we made such 10 huge progress on the metric last time that I 11 thought we'd basically gotten to the point where 12 we had a shared understanding of what we were 13 doing with the metric. 14 And that's why I presume that when the 15 time is right, that you all would be prepared to 16 once again flash up on the screen all that 17 material and we can go through it to confirm. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean, I think 19 today maybe we can try to do the vote and discuss 20 the certification stuff and maybe we won't do the 21 metric and test procedure stuff until tomorrow if 22 everything else gets resolved.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 98 1 MR. ADIN: All right. Actually, Sarah, 2 we can begin. I apologize for that. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can vote. Let's 4 vote. 5 MR. ADIN: We're ready to vote. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: On reinforcements. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: We want to know where'd 8 you get the tan. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's nice outside. 10 (Laughter.) 11 MR. BROOKMAN: So we've confirmed we 12 have a quorum. We have 14 members present and 13 we're about to take the vote. I've called the 14 question. I've rearticulated the full package 15 which includes that RSV pumps will be listed as 16 the equivalent to MEI 40. That's a new part of the 17 proposal. So all those -- 18 MR. HANDZEL: Could Ashley just 19 introduce herself so everybody knows her? 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley, would you 21 introduce yourself? 22 MR. HANDZEL: Sorry, Al -- sorry, caught

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 99 1 with my mouth full. But Al didn't know who she 2 is. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi, Al. I'm Ashley. I 4 work for DOE. I oversee the test procedures and 5 standards -- or test procedures and certification 6 enforcement type stuff coming out of the 7 department. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: And we might be taking 9 that up immediately. And Doug, will you all 10 please introduce yourself? 11 MR. RAWALD: Hi. I'm Doug Rawald. I'm 12 an attorney with the Office of General Counsel at 13 the Department of Energy. I work on enforcement. 14 So I came because I thought you were going to be 15 talking about that. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay, so I'm 17 calling the question now. All those in favor of 18 accepting the proposal as enumerated lengthily, 19 please raise your hand to signify aye. One, two, 20 I'm casting my eyes around the room. I see no 21 dissenting votes among members. So that means 14 22 votes. And Doug Potts on line, do you -- how do

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 100 1 you wish to vote? 2 MR. POTTS: Yeah, this is Doug Potts. I 3 would like to vote yes. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so that's 14 votes 5 yes and one abstention. Congratulations, we've 6 now done something important. 7 (Applause.) 8 MR. BROOKMAN: This is really important. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: This is the most 10 important. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: This is really important 12 here. Okay, great. So thanks for that. That was 13 very, very good and we've worked now for many 14 meetings to get to this point. So 15 congratulations. 16 I especially appreciate the spirit of 17 collaboration and cooperation inside the caucuses, 18 the two major individual caucuses and between the 19 caucuses. Very nicely done. Okay, Meg? 20 MS. WALTNER: Just sorry, I have a 21 question on the vote count. How many members do 22 we have on the committee total?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 101 1 MR. BROOKMAN: We have 14 members 2 present. We have 16 members total. 3 MS. WALTNER: It's 14 counting Doug on 4 the phone? 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Fourteen includes Doug on 6 the phone. 7 MS. WALTNER: Okay. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Because we're missing 9 today - - we're missing Dan Delaney, who is an 10 alternate for Howard Richardson, Regal Beloit. 11 MS. WALTNER: Okay. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: And we're also missing 13 Steve Rosenstock. 14 MS. WALTNER: Okay, so it should be two 15 abstentions, right? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: There should be two 17 abstentions. 18 MS. WALTNER: Okay. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absent. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Or one absent, one absent 21 and one abstention because Steve -- Steve wrote. 22 He said, I'd like to be included as an abstention

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 102 1 on any votes. 2 MS. WALTNER: Okay. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: But we haven't heard from 4 Howard Richardson. 5 MS. WALTNER: I see. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: He's absent. 7 MS. WALTNER: Okay. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So how should we 9 begin this topic, since we have both Doug and 10 Ashley here, about ability to certify early or 11 voluntary certification and the data collection 12 effort and the stuff that we had begun to discuss? 13 Joanna, do you want to start in on that again or 14 do you want someone else to do that? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can try to -- maybe I 16 can -- so what -- so can someone explain to me I 17 guess what the questions and slash concerns maybe 18 are just since Doug and I haven't been here? 19 MS. MAUER: Yeah, this is Joanna. I can 20 try to restate I think the two things that we're 21 interested in. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 103 1 MS. MAUER: The first is kind of the 2 ability for manufacturers voluntarily to certify 3 before the compliance date with the goal of 4 providing data for utility programs to use to 5 incentive extended products. 6 And the other is we think it'd be 7 valuable for -- again, for programs to have not 8 just in the certification database the PER levels 9 but some of the components that go into 10 calculating the PER. 11 So for example, you know, the PER is 12 going to be based on power at three or four 13 points, so having the actual values at those 14 points listed in the certification database in 15 addition to the actual PER value that's -- 16 MR. RAWALD: Is PER the agreed upon 17 metric? 18 MS. MAUER: Yeah, sorry. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: And also, we should note 20 that this came up as an aspect of the original 21 proposal and a few of the manufacturers said, gee, 22 this is something we need to talk about.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 104 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So I think from 2 the department's perspective, the answer to the 3 question of can they voluntarily certify early, to 4 the extent DOE goes through a rulemaking and 5 establishes certification requirements, typically 6 the compliance with those certification 7 requirements, at least if we base it on what we've 8 done with other products, will be mapped up to 9 compliance with standards, at least the 10 requirement. 11 We always allow certification early. I 12 mean, they could submit data. As soon as we 13 finish the rule, we could develop the templates. 14 We could put them online and then if manufacturers 15 wanted to send in their data in, they could send 16 them in, you know, assuming that they are ready to 17 certify compliance early with the test procedure 18 that's required with the standard that's required. 19 They are well within their purview to do that. 20 Now, obviously we'd need to go through 21 some steps including completing a rulemaking to 22 contemplate the type of data they would submit to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 105 1 the department as part of their certification 2 report, which gets to your second question. 3 I think the answer is the department 4 collects a lot of different information on 5 different products. It doesn't just have to be 6 limited to the standard. If the committee were to 7 agree that it would be helpful as a whole for DOE 8 to collect certain data elements, I don't see why 9 DOE -- you couldn't recommend that to the 10 department to consider as part of a separate 11 rulemaking. 12 I don't think we're going to necessarily 13 -- we could talk about where we would put it, what 14 rule it would go into. But that being said, we'd 15 still have to go through the rulemaking and notice 16 and comment process to adopt it. But if the 17 committee wanted to talk about what data elements 18 we would be asking for, you know, you could. 19 MR. RAWALD: I guess I want to give the 20 manufacturers kind of a better idea of what we 21 collect so you can understand what we do for the 22 products.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 106 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 2 MR. HANDZEL: So, Mark Handzel, from 3 Xylem. So we've bene working through this 4 calculation process and supplied all sorts of data 5 to the consultants and, you know, it's basically 6 full load efficiency data as well as efficiency 7 data at a couple of other points, okay. 8 And I think on the pump side, which is 9 what we control, we have no problem reporting 10 that. And I would like -- I think we would like 11 to make are recommendation of how that table 12 should be structured so we know going in what 13 we're going to do and I think we know the 14 structure. We've been using it. We've been 15 seeing it. 16 But I guess Joanna's point is we've been 17 discussing a further extension of this rulemaking 18 into what we call extended product, which 19 incorporates a motor efficiency and a drive 20 efficiency. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 22 MR. HANDZEL: And so how -- you know,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 107 1 how we collect the data for that is something 2 that's a bigger, a little bit more onerous task 3 because we don't make all the motors. We make 4 some motors for some of our pumps. So we would 5 have, you know, the stuff we make, we control. 6 But you know, if you're going into other 7 products, the pump industry doesn't want the 8 responsibility for maintaining the database for 9 products we don't make. I guess that's -- at 10 least that's the way I feel and I think there 11 would be a fair amount of support from my fellow 12 manufacturers. 13 MR. RAWALD: Definitely a lot of layers 14 to that question. 15 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, sorry, but -- 16 MR. RAWALD: So I want to make sure we - 17 - I want to give you kind of I guess a very nuts 18 and bolts understanding of what we require for 19 reports and then that'll help you kind of 20 understand how we work them. And so, just for all 21 products we have what's called a template, at a 22 very basic level.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 108 1 A template's an Excel spreadsheet and it 2 has a line and it says here is the model number, 3 here is the characteristics that we're reporting 4 to DOE. This is its efficiency and this is a 5 couple other things about it. And so, it's a 6 simple, just plug in the number spreadsheet. 7 And so, and then also the second part of 8 that is also another page where the manufacturer 9 swears that their product is compliant. So you're 10 signing off saying, hey, my product complies with 11 what the requirements are under the law. So 12 that's the very basic broad what we're asking in a 13 report. 14 MR. ADIN: Can I ask a clarifying 15 question? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Certainly. Lucas? 17 MR. ADIN: Is your question or the issue 18 you're raising more about which data you would 19 actually have to report to DOE or which data you 20 need to have on hand to get the rating that you 21 report to DOE for the pump? 22 MR. HANDZEL: So I guess I'm partially

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 109 1 responding to Joanna's request because I 2 understand you want to be able to use it for the 3 ACEEE, you know, performance standard. And it's 4 based on extended product. So it needs the 5 efficiencies of those other components to the 6 extended product system. 7 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. But I think 8 that's -- I mean, you're going to have to certify. 9 I mean, if you're selling a pump with a 10 motor, that pump that you're certifying or pump 11 motor and drive, right, isn't this metric that 12 we're developing, it's providing a way to certify 13 that either through tests or through using the 14 default values, I guess I see that as somewhat of 15 a separate question because you're going to have 16 to certify those products regardless of whether 17 you just certified PER or -- 18 MR. RAWALD: So everything we've done is 19 motor and pump at this point. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So I don't think 21 Joanna's asking for anything that you wouldn't be 22 probably required to certify, right. Like even if

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 110 1 you use the default motor loss things that we've 2 been talking about, you would have to do that 3 calculation and add it to your pump loss in order 4 to certify your pump. 5 MR. HANDZEL: But again, we've just been 6 talking about them. So we've never agreed on any 7 of that, so. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, I know. So, 9 agreed, so that's -- I think that's a separate 10 question, right, like I don't think they're going 11 to -- I don't really think they're asking for 12 something that would be different from what you -- 13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. I just want to know 14 what they're asking for. I guess that's my -- 15 that's my point. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 17 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Did you have a question 19 or comment? 20 MR. RAWALD: But it does sound like some 21 of what you're getting at is the values are used 22 to arrive at the final number, which is the final

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 111 1 number is definitely what we're going to be 2 requiring you to report at some point, right? 3 And so, how you - what those individual 4 numbers are and how you determine those are test 5 procedure questions, right. Is that -- am I -- 6 MS. MAUER: In part. 7 MR. HANDZEL: Test procedure before 8 calculation. 9 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so, whether we 10 would actually have a spot on the spreadsheet for 11 you to indicate those numbers as well, you know, 12 is something we could discuss further in a future 13 rulemaking on certification. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: And Ashley, asking you 15 are there other products that list more data 16 elements such as are being suggested by Joanna and 17 others? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? There are? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Some of them are simply

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 112 1 just the rated metric which in this case would be 2 PER. Others are much more, you know, intensive in 3 terms of like refrigerators, we have 31 things 4 that they report. So like I said, I think -- 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it voluntary or 6 mandatory? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's mandatory. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Mandatory. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So like I said, if the 10 committee comes up with a list of things that DOE 11 should consider as part of, you know, their 12 discussions here, I think that would be very 13 helpful in terms of -- but we would definitely ask 14 for PER, which if you wanted to put stuff about 15 pump losses and other types of things in there, 16 you could as well. 17 MR. RAWALD: Any other questions? So as 18 far as the early certification goes, a lot of that 19 will be driven by just technical logistical 20 considerations, right. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 22 MR. RAWALD: Because we have to develop

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 113 1 a template. We have to post it online. People 2 have to fill it out and submit it. We of course 3 expect people would be filling it out and 4 submitting it at least some time before the 5 compliance date because they'd want to get ahead 6 of the curve. 7 The question is how far ahead would you 8 want to go. And we would of course then need to 9 get things into motion earlier to get that 10 happening. We need to have a rulemaking. 11 We'd need to have a template completed 12 and we'd need to have all this stuff done. So you 13 need to think about how far ahead of the curve 14 would you really want to be for that because 15 routinely we're not getting that far ahead of the 16 curve. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: So -- 18 MS. WALTNER: Meg. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, please. 20 MS. WALTNER: When you say you need a 21 rulemaking, are you saying we need a separate 22 certification rulemaking outside of the test

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 114 1 procedure? 2 MR. HANDZEL: We talked about that at 3 the last meeting, that that was the plan. 4 MS. WALTNER: Okay. 5 MR. RAWALD: The typical process is -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We've done it both ways. 7 MR. RAWALD: Right. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think the answer is 9 we don't -- we need a separate rulemaking other 10 than those that you negotiated on. 11 MS. WALTNER: Right. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It may look -- be in the 13 form of I think right now what we have been 14 considering to date is three separate ones. 15 That's not to say they have to be that way. 16 MS. WALTNER: So the test procedure, 17 standards -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: and certification, yeah. 19 MS. WALTNER: Okay. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we've done -- but 21 we've combined elements of those amongst each 22 other. It's no real requirement that they be done

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 115 1 that way. 2 MS. WALTNER: Okay. 3 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman. Speaking 4 logistically of this, if we come up with a term 5 sheet that lists the template elements that we can 6 agree to and the levels which we've already agreed 7 to, you can parse that into whatever -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't matter. 9 MR. ECKMAN: -- regulatory process you 10 need. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 12 MR. ECKMAN: So we just give you the 13 content and you can figure out the process. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Tom. That's 16 helpful. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: And there are probably 18 some nuances in the certs that we would need to 19 flush out anyway. And we would probably do that 20 with the test procedure as well and kind of would 21 move along as a whole package even if it's three 22 separate rules.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 116 1 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug 2 Rawald. A certification usually includes -- a 3 rule includes two things. It includes both the 4 elementary nature of the report but also the 5 sampling plan to get to your certification value. 6 And so, if we have those two pieces, then there 7 would be no reason why we could at least consider 8 moving forward with establishing a rule regarding 9 that. 10 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, but we never spent 11 any time talking about a sampling plan. 12 MR. RAWALD: Right. 13 MR. HANDZEL: So obviously it's 14 something we need to learn a bit more about from 15 the manufacturers' perspective. This is all Greek 16 to us. We don't know anything about this. 17 MR. RAWALD: Right, because we need to 18 have at least some sort of idea of what the 19 minimum sample would be to be representative of 20 the entire class or the model that you're saying 21 certified is compliant. So that's a typical part 22 of our certification provisions.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 117 1 MR. HANDZEL: So would the DOE make a 2 recommendation on that or how do you recommend it? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So for all of our 4 products, except for motors -- they're a little 5 special -- and there's a couple of other nuances. 6 But for most of our products, we say it 7 has to be a sample size of two or more and we 8 leave it to the manufacturers' discretion as to 9 how many more or if they only want two, depending 10 on the variability or whatever they'd like to do 11 or what they typically do, for purely testing 12 purposes. 13 MR. ADIN: And just to clarify, that's 14 something unique to each model. So each model 15 that is being assigned a rating has to be based on 16 that testing sample of these units. 17 MR. ECKMAN: Basic model. 18 MR. ADIN: Basic model, right. 19 MR. BOTELER: If you have 3,000 basic 20 models, then you have to do two or more of each. 21 MR. HANDZEL: It's going to be an 22 interesting discussion for us because most of us

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 118 1 do certification. You know, I don't think many of 2 us do it based on multiple units. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you know, you guys 4 would know this better than we do. We had a lot 5 of feedback that there is enough variability in 6 either of the test or the procedure itself or lab 7 to lab variability that a rated value shouldn't be 8 based upon a value of a single test. 9 Now, if you have evidence that suggests 10 that's not true for pumps, that's not to say DOE 11 couldn't consider a sample size of one or 12 something different. You know, for other things 13 we have larger sample sizes. It just really 14 depends. 15 MR. RAWALD: Right, and I guess like 16 distribution transformers, we have a sample size 17 as low as one if you only produce one in a six18 month period. So if you produce five or more, 19 then it has to be at least five. So it just 20 depends on -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: There are some nuances 22 here.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 119 1 MR. RAWALD: Right. There's a lot of 2 variability in the rules and how they're set up to 3 be product-oriented. So there's some more 4 discussion possible. And along with the number of 5 samples required, there's also statistics that are 6 kind of in play. 7 You know, what the actual statistical 8 curve will look like based upon how you think your 9 product will flow. So some will have more narrow 10 and some will have more broad kind of statistical 11 sampling provisions. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: It's stuck in my brain 13 that Tom clarified that it was basic models for 14 which -- we should delve into that a little bit, 15 right? 16 MR. HUBER: Everybody doesn't agree 17 about basic. 18 MR. ECKMAN: Basic -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Tom. Go ahead. 20 MR. ECKMAN: I'll let these folks define 21 basic models in terms of their technical meaning 22 at the DOE. But broadly speaking, it's a group of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 120 1 products that you rate as a group and a basic 2 model represents that entire group and its 3 efficiency is the lowest of that entire group. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 5 MR. HUBER: The lowest. 6 MR. ECKMAN: The lowest of that entire 7 group. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the least efficient. 9 So we allow you at your discretion to group 10 individual models into what we call a basic model 11 which is a group of individual models. The 12 efficiency, the certified ranking, so that 13 certified PER value and the one you use for 14 representations would have to be the same for all 15 the individuals in that basic model. 16 But it allows you to reduce your test 17 burden because you only have to test certain 18 number of units per basic model. You don't 19 actually have to test a certain number of units 20 per model. 21 So but it's a risk because if DOE were 22 to test and we find there's an issue with one of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 121 1 those individual models such that that model's 2 found to be not meeting our standards for whatever 3 reason, we would apply it across the board. It 4 would be that basic model is found to be 5 noncompliant. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al? 7 MR. HUBER: Not to speak for my 8 technical people, but we're informed I am not an 9 engineer. I am not an engineer. We basically 10 have five different types of pumps. 11 Generally each model would be -- for 12 instance, I'll give you an example. In an end13 suction pump, it may be a 2 x 1.5 x 7 or whatever, 14 right, that you're considering a model. 15 MR. ECKMAN: A basic model. 16 MR. HUBER: But we're only testing -- 17 MS. WILLIAMS: That's what we're 18 considering an individual model. 19 MR. ECKMAN: That's a model. 20 MR. HUBER: That's a what? 21 MR. RAWALD: It's like a depends size. 22 MR. HUBER: Wait a minute, wait a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 122 1 minute, wait a minute. We've got -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Sorry, go ahead, Al. 3 MR. HUBER: What? 4 MS. WILLIAMS: So like I think, you 5 know, when you reported us, you know, each line of 6 the database -- 7 MR. HUBER: That was the model. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: -- was what we would 9 think of as an individual model. And so, what 10 Ashley is talking about is whether you would want 11 to, you know, link some of those together. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Consolidate that 13 further. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Establish a cohort or 15 something like that. 16 MS. WIDDER: Right, so there'd be like 17 individual - like you -- there's in our calculator 18 there's that line for model number and then a 19 basic model, if you were to do the grouping 20 provision, you would list the individual model 21 numbers that are certified under that basic model. 22 But then, all of those pump models would

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 123 1 have to have the same rating. And so, if one was 2 more efficient, you couldn't say that. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me clarify. And 4 would they -- would all of those pump models that 5 would be a part of that basic model, would they in 6 addition to the efficiency rating, would they need 7 to have the same pump characteristics? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: They have to have 9 essentially identical characteristics. That's a 10 legal term. 11 MR. RAWALD: That affects -- 12 MR. ECKMAN: That affects efficiency. 13 MR. RAWALD: Right, the efficiency 14 calculation. Otherwise -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Okay, I actually 16 saw Charlie first. 17 MR. CAPPELLINO: I was going to ask if 18 somebody could provide an example. Charlie, this 19 is Charlie Cappellino, an example scenario maybe 20 in a parallel kind of product area that might shed 21 some light. 22 MR. BOTELER: Well --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 124 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Robert? 2 MR. RAWALD: I don't want to go into 3 motors because motors are so different than 4 everything else. So I think -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: How about refrigerators? 6 That's an easy one. 7 MR. RAWALD: It could be very simple 8 with refrigerators or faucets or those kinds of 9 things. So if you have a black, beige and a 10 stainless steel fridge, those are all the same. 11 Those are all different model numbers to the 12 manufacturer but they're all the same basic model. 13 So that's it a very simple, simple 14 level, all the variation in individual models that 15 make the same basic model because a color does not 16 affect the energy consumption at all or the energy 17 efficiency. So the manufacturer had to put a 18 number on those but they're all the same basic 19 models. 20 MR. ARMSTRONG: So another example would 21 be like for air conditioners, sometimes they use 22 slightly different -- or they use different

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 125 1 compressor suppliers or different fan motor 2 suppliers or something like that. And changing 3 them out, they're generally the same type. They 4 have generally the same curves. 5 But and they get generally the same 6 results for their rated values but they're not 7 identical. They're slightly different components. 8 They were sourced a little differently 9 but they choose to group those models the same 10 because at the end of the day their rated values 11 that they send in to DOE are the same and they 12 don't want to test all those discrete different 13 versions that they may have. That's like the 14 simpler example. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: So I think like if you 16 had, you know, two different types of impeller 17 materials that you wanted to certify at the same 18 rating, that would be the same model. 19 MR. HANDZEL: Right, no, those would be 20 the same geometry. So those would -- yeah, they 21 produce the same performance. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I suspect for your

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 126 1 different geometries, you probably don't -- 2 MR. HANDZEL: Right. So for example, 3 let's just look at pictures. So that's a type of 4 pump. That's end-suction, frame-mount. My company 5 makes 26 different models. 6 Okay, that means they have different 7 impeller, or flanges connections and different 8 impellers. But they we also sell those in three 9 different speeds, okay. And as you guys know, 10 it's the same pump basically. It's just got a 11 different driver on the motor side. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so -- 13 MR. TOWSLEY: Different mechanic seals. 14 MR. HANDZEL: And it could be a 15 different mechanical seal. 16 MR. TOWSLEY: A different color. 17 MR. HANDZEL: Well, it could be. You 18 know, so I guess -- well yes, but I'm not going to 19 certify it under my different brand because it's 20 the same product. 21 MR. TOWSLEY: So how many basic models 22 is that then?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 127 1 MR. HANDZEL: Well, that's what I'm 2 asking. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: So on the speed front, I 4 just want to say that since you guys want 5 different equipment classes by speed, you would 6 almost definitely have to certify those separately 7 because that's how you guys wanted. If we had 8 just set one standard regardless of speed, you 9 could obviously -- 10 MR. RAWALD: Yeah, we could be 11 definitive on that. A basic model cannot be a 12 different class. So a basic model can only exist 13 within on product class. And so, if it's a 14 different product class for different speeds, 15 they're different basic models. That's just a -- 16 that's a rule that we have hard and fast. 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so and we only do 18 two speeds. So if you make it in your third 19 speed, then that's different. But I think maybe 20 the basic model will come into play not as much on 21 your bare pumps necessarily as when we're doing 22 the pump motor control configurations, so.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 128 1 MS. WIDDER: Well, I think it will be on 2 bare pumps a little bit. But I think like the 3 other examples you gave might be candidates for a 4 grouping, like different mechanical seals. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh. 6 MS. WIDDER: But different flange sizes, 7 like the fundamental different geometries would 8 probably I would think want to be different basic 9 models. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: If you have different 11 flows - - if you're going to have a different BEP 12 rate -- 13 MS. WIDDER: Right. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: -- you would need to have 15 a different model I think. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr? 17 MR. STARR: Well, this is kind of a 18 question for Mark more. Those 26 models, how much 19 is the efficiency differ in those 26 models? 20 MR. HUBER: Oh, pretty good. 21 MR. HANDZEL: Significantly. 22 MR. STARR: Five percent for a six

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 129 1 speed? 2 MR. HANDZEL: No, 20 percent. 3 MR. HUBER: Twenty percent. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: So you're talking about a 5 range of sizes basically, right? 6 MR. HANDZEL: Oh yeah, 26 different 7 sizes for this. 8 MR. HUBER: Yeah, it varies with the 9 size. 10 MR. HANDZEL: But obviously, you know, 11 within each of those sizes, you know, any of those 12 pumps could take five to six different motor horse 13 powers. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so and -- 15 MR. HANDZEL: But we did everything 16 based on the full runner impeller. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so if you chose to 18 do them with the nominal values across the boards, 19 then that would decrease them all to the nominal 20 values, right? 21 MR. HANDZEL: Right. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, or we might have

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 130 1 tests. You know, we haven't really talked about 2 this in the test procedure yet. But it might be 3 that we have rules for sizing the motor and that 4 you only have to certify with only one motor size, 5 for example. So that's stuff that hasn't really 6 been ironed out yet, but -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Will you state that 9 again? Will you repeat that about nominal values? 10 I'm not sure they got that. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, so my under -- 12 sorry, I haven't been here the whole time. But my 13 understanding of this is at least the way that 14 we've discussed structuring the integrated metric 15 is that you have the option to do the full test or 16 you have the option to do the full pumps test or 17 the pumps curves and take them and then obviously 18 they can be paired with different sizes of motors 19 as well as different motor efficiencies and 20 different drives. 21 So we've given them options for nominal 22 values although we haven't discussed a lot of the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 131 1 details of what that might be. 2 But nominal values for motors, nominal 3 values for drives, and so if you kept everything 4 at their nominal values and you didn't want to 5 claim the higher PER values that you might get 6 from higher efficiency motors and more efficient 7 drive systems, you could keep them all within the 8 same basic model. 9 That being said, if you wanted to market 10 higher efficiency drives and motors, then you 11 would separate them out as different basic models. 12 It just depends. 13 MR. BOTELER: And you could label that - 14 - this is Rob Boteler. You could label that to 15 the higher level, the higher PER. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: As long as you certify 17 it as a separate base model, yes, absolutely. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Al Huber? 19 MR. BOTELER: As a separate basic model. 20 MR. HUBER: I want to make sure that 21 we're clear. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that's so -- that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 132 1 being said, that's how our rule -- we have no 2 rules for pumps, right? That's what we're 3 discussing, right? 4 MR. HANDZEL: Right. We're kind of 5 helping for a rule right here while we're walking 6 through it. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is how our rules 8 for other products work though, just generally. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 10 MR. HUBER: We want to make sure we're 11 clear here because if we test -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're aware. 13 MR. HUBER: We have always said that 14 we're testing at full diameter impeller and 15 everybody in this room is aware and that's what 16 we're going to certify. 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 18 MR. ADIN: Right. 19 MR. HUBER: So if you take one that's 20 been trimmed by two inches -- 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, no. 22 MR. ADIN: No, we only test it when you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 133 1

-- 2 MS. WILLIAMS: You would have to select 3

-- 4 MR. ADIN: Right. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 6 MR. HUBER: You'll only select at full 7 diameter. Okay. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 9 MR. ADIN: It has to be based on what 10 you actually certified. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 12 MR. HUBER: Okay, just wanted to make 13 sure. 14 MR. HANDZEL: Well, so but just now -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're not that bad. 16 MR. HANDZEL: -- as we start to look at 17 the extended database, so we're talking full 18 runner impeller, you know, so we're talking, you 19 know, you know, a full -- the largest horsepower 20 that that pump can take typically, you know. 21 So I mean, we're starting to close in, 22 which is what I was trying to get to about what

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 134 1 data is going to be necessary to do your extended 2 product calculation. 3 MS. MAUER: Yeah, and this is Joanna. I 4 think we were just talking about for the pumps 5 that you're certifying, having these additional 6 columns of data that you're already generating to 7 come up with the PER. 8 MS. WIDDER: I think what -- so Joanna, 9 correct me if I'm wrong. I think what they're 10 asking for is, like, in the calculator we have for 11 a constant load application 75 percent of BEP 12 flow, a hundred percent of BEP flow and 110 13 percent of BEP flow, which is like what's in the 14 EU in the MEI calculation. 15 And we've discussed a way to have a 16 weighted average of those values to result in a 17 single metric. And I think what Joanna is looking 18 for is like in the EU reporting or including in 19 the database in some format all three of those. 20 MR. HUBER: She wants four. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: I think that's the 22 variable load.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 135 1 MS. WIDDER: Okay, for variable load, 2 there's four. So depending on if you were a pump 3 that applied the PER variable load, the variable 4 load PER or we're a pump that applied a constant 5 load PER, it would be three or four as applicable. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: But you would need each 7 of those points to create your certification to 8 DOE anyway, yeah. 9 MR. HUBER: We understand that. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 11 MR. HUBER: I want to make sure that 12 it's clear. What we had proposed to submit or 13 what we're thinking about having to submit are 14 those pump values or efficiency values at those 15 points. We don't need to submit the motor. We 16 don't need to submit the control because you 17 already have it to a standard basically. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the answer is yes and 19 no. I think it becomes twofold. One is you're 20 going to have to submit PER. It is the metric 21 that you agreed to, period. So you're going to 22 have to do the calculation with the nominal

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 136 1 values, right, and define your PER, whatever your 2 certified rating is for each basic model that you 3 want to distribute and in commerce. 4 That being said, if you want to market 5 for utility-type incentive reasons or others, 6 higher PER values based on motor efficiency gains 7 or drive efficiency gains, you are well within 8 your right to do so. But you need to certify 9 those as well. 10 So those wouldn't just be the nominal 11 values, right. But you'd have to calculate your 12 PER accordingly based on whatever you -- whatever 13 the test procedure says that you're allowed to 14 use. But it's your choice how you do it. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 16 MR. CAPPELLINO: So just to clarify 17 that, so we would do that via the calculator but 18 not necessarily have to submit -- 19 MR. ADIN: That'd be -- the way in which 20 you determine what that PER is that you certify, 21 that's part of the test procedure. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 137 1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Sorry? 2 MR. ADIN: So, the test procedure. 3 That'll be part of the DOE test procedure. So 4 there will be a method in there for getting some 5 tested values to that rated value. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 7 MR. CAPPELLINO: So, still not clear 8 that Al's question was answered in terms of if you 9 want to market a pump, bare pump with a specific 10 motor and a specific drive, how you -- how you 11 qualify that. I mean, do you -- 12 MR. ADIN: Is the question about whether 13 you have to certify the motor and drive efficiency 14 or I'm not sure what the differences between -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the answer of how it 16 comes into effect with whatever method DOE ends up 17 proposing after comment ultimately adopts in the 18 test procedure. I mean, that method is going to 19 define either how you calculate or how you test, 20 how you arrive at your PER values. 21 MS. WIDDER: And we've discussed this in 22 previous meetings. I was going to try and write

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 138 1 the PEI calculation up here but nobody can see it 2 here. 3 But when pump -- when Joanna's talking 4 about the pump input power values at 75, 100 and 5 110 percent of BEP flow, we're talking about input 6 power to the pump, inclusive of the motor or drive 7 if it's part of the pump, just like we've been 8 talking about as the metric construction for 9 several meetings where that input power to the 10 pump is the shaft input power plus the motor 11 losses. 12 And so, even if you have a bare pump, 13 you have your shaft input power that came from the 14 40.6 test plus the associated motor loss to get 15 that input power to the pump system value and then 16 that's weighted to come up with the PER for your 17 pump. 18 And so, I think what Joanna's looking 19 for is the input power to the pump inclusive of 20 motor losses and the motor losses that we've been 21 discussing have come from a nominal motor 22 efficiency that could be looked up in the CFR if

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 139 1 you're a bare pump. It could also come from a 2 nominal full load efficiency if you sell the pump 3 with a motor. Those are the two main methods that 4 we've discussed. 5 So you can -- you could choose to always 6 use the CFR values, the lowest common denominator, 7 and not do a higher efficiency motor even if you 8 sold your pump with the motor but then you can't 9 make representations about the advantage of using 10 a more efficient motor. But either way, that data 11 was going to be part of the PEI calculation as 12 we've discussed it so far. Does that sound 13 familiar to everyone? Okay. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 15 MR. HUBER: A couple of questions. One 16 of them -- the first one is if I use a motor that 17 is better or is equal to, I can do it by 18 calculation, correct? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Mm-hmm. (Affirmative.) 20 MR. HUBER: But I'll only be able to 21 certify to the lowest -- basically the lowest 22 thing, right?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 140 1 MS. WILLIAMS: No, you can choose. 2 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I mean -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 4 MR. HUBER: If I do calculations, I can 5 calculate whatever the motor manufacturer tells me 6 his efficiency is? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Mm-hmm. (Affirmative.) 8 MR. HUBER: Okay. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, you can. 10 MR. HUBER: Now, the second point I want 11 to make is when you go in an extended product, and 12 this is something I think we need, we've got to 13 address, is that if you use too high -- since 14 there is no published data on controls, there is 15 no published data, and you decide to use -- we 16 started out with one and we know that's not going 17 to work because I will never get a -- and use it 18 all the way across the board, I will never get one 19 to pass. 20 MR. HANDZEL: Right, because then 21 they'll be able to reach what you calculate. 22 MR. HUBER: No, yeah, even if I test it,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 141 1 I can't get to where you calculated. So somehow 2 we're going to have to address that. 3 MR. HANDZEL: A way to come off of the 4 full level, yeah. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: I think that's something 6

-- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is -- 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think we want to 9 talk about -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Really what you're 11 talking about is the test procedure. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's how you determine 14 that 15

-- 16 MR. HUBER: Yeah, no. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: In our world, in DOE's 18 world, it's purely the method of test. 19 MR. HANDZEL: But the calculation we're 20 doing is not -- cannot be duplicated in a test 21 stand unfortunately. 22 MR. HUBER: The data is not available.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 142 1 That's what we're trying to tell you. The data 2 for controls is not available. And if you 3 arbitrarily use a certain number and it's wrong -- 4 MR. HANDZEL: And we can't -- yeah. 5 MR. HUBER: We may not even be able even 6 by test to meet your standard. 7 MR. ADIN: So the test procedure may 8 need to address that issue. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So just take a step back 10 for a second. Our test procedures provide two 11 things. One is methods we're actually testing a 12 pump when it's on a stand but they also provide 13 methods for getting to the pump's efficiency from 14 calculations. 15 So when we talk about test procedures, 16 we're talking about them more broadly. And they 17 encompass both, you know, testing on a stand as 18 well as any calculations that may be done in lieu 19 of testing on a stand. 20 So that's where I think number two comes 21 in because the calculations and determining what 22 the appropriateness of those values, you know,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 143 1 should be for both motors and drive components 2 that you would then add to your pump testing on a 3 stand results to get your final PER number are I 4 think what's the issue here. 5 MS. WIDDER: So the other thing that 6 I'll say with regard to why it's not important 7 from the standard perspective is because back to 8 the slides that I think we discussed when Alison 9 was presenting the NIA was when we're setting the 10 standard, we're only assuming that you can improve 11 the pump. And so, we're always assuming the 12 minimally efficient motor and minimally -- and no 13 drive, so uncontrolled. 14 And so what's that -- oh, sorry, thought 15 you were just talking to me. So the -- if your 16 pump has a PEI less than one, it passes since the 17 standard's on the bottom and your pump PER is on 18 the top and because a drive, as we all understand, 19 will decrease the energy use of the pump so 20 dramatically, you will always be far less than one 21 because you have an uncontrolled pump on the 22 bottom. And so, you will always pass with a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 144 1 drive, always. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, let's not go that 3 far. 4 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 5 MR. ADIN: So and there are actually 6 kind of two different questions. I mean, one is 7 comparison with the standard for a given pump, 8 does that pump actually meet the standard and then 9 the other question is, is it -- if a test was run 10 on a given pump, is the rating at least as good as 11 what it was coming out of the calculation, right? 12 So is the rating valid and does it meet the 13 standard. 14 MR. HANDZEL: So Ashley just said that 15 we should be able to calculate the PER value for 16 our pumps. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well -- 18 MR. HANDZEL: We can't calculate the PER 19 value for our pumps. We have to test. You know, 20 we come up with a design -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no. I said you 22 should be able -- you should be able to calculate

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 145 1 the PER values of your pumps based -- that's what 2 we've done for most of these negotiations, right? 3 You -- and by PER I mean you test the pump part, 4 right? 5 MR. HANDZEL: But it's based on the 6 performance data we tested. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 8 MR. HANDZEL: All right, just wanted to 9 make sure. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: You take the pump part 11 test, right, but you don't necessarily test the 12 system. In other words, you're not doing, for 13 lack of a better term, a wire to water, or wire to 14 water test, right? 15 MR. HANDZEL: But when we do it with a 16 motor and a drive, we're essentially doing a wire 17 to water test. 18 MR. HUBER: It is a wire to water. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: You could. You could, 20 right. So I think that's one option. But another 21 option that we've talked about here, you guys have 22 mostly talked about --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 146 1 MR. HANDZEL: But we could take our 2 tested performance data -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: From the pump. 4 MR. HANDZEL: From the pump with Rob's 5 performance data from his motor and the drive's 6 performance data from the drive manufacturer and 7 estimate a wire to water value. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, so I think that's 9

-- 10 MR. HANDZEL: But that's what we're 11 concerned about because we don't have partial load 12 data on the motor and the drive to do a factual 13 calculation. We would be estimating a calculation 14 that we would probably never be able to duplicate 15 on a test stand. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So you're 17 worried about coming up -- confirm if this is 18 correct. But you're worried about using some type 19 of calculation method that used either -- uses 20 nominal values or uses estimations of component 21 performance in addition to your pump test data to 22 come up with your PER and then DOE doing the full

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 147 1 wire to water test and being held to that, 2 correct? 3 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, correct. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it's fair to 5 say, you know, typically what we try to do, at 6 least in most of ours, is emulate what you have 7 done. So in other words, if you've gone through 8 the -- I don't think we should come up with values 9 -- we should come up with methods of calculation 10 that are for the most part equitable. 11 We try to do that. So we -- you know, 12 it is our charge when we come up with the test 13 method and we come up with some type of 14 calculation method for estimating these nominal 15 values from the other components that you may not 16 have readily available data for, it is our charge 17 to get equitable results. But that being said, I 18 don't see us artificially holding you to something 19 that's out of your control. 20 MR. RAWALD: Right, I guess from a -- 21 this is Doug Rawald -- from a certification point 22 of view, this thinking, what we might consider

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 148 1 doing, would be you certify what the PER value is 2 and then you say I arrived at it by -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: X or Y. 4 MR. RAWALD: By doing this method and 5 then when we tested it, we'd say, oh, when Mark 6 gave us his value, he only tested the bare pump 7 and then he used these nominal values. So we'll 8 test the bare pump and plug in the nominal values. 9 MR. HANDZEL: Right, you would do the 10 same thing that we would do in the calculation. 11 MR. RAWALD: Right. 12 MR. ADIN: And to the extent when you 13 include -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is something we 15 would consider here, yeah. 16 MR. ADIN: Right. To the extent we need 17 to include something in the certification report 18 that indicates how you did it, we do this for some 19 other products where it's necessary where we 20 couldn't necessarily tell. You check a box that 21 says this is how I obtained this rating so that we 22 know.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 149 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 2 MR. ADIN: Yeah, okay. 3 MR. RAWALD: The problem would be for 4 the person that didn't certify, that was just out 5 there operating absent the law and we bought their 6 part and tested it. Well, then we would probably 7 not get the result they want, so it would be to 8 your benefit to certify so we knew how you got 9 there, so. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: In a lot of different 11 ways. Right, so I think that's -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary? 13 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. It seems 14 to me we're making this more complicated than it 15 needs to be. It looks like there are three cases. 16 You use the pump performance value and 17 the default values DOE supplies for the associated 18 motor and drive if you have one and there's no 19 question about that because you've tested the pump 20 and you've used the approved default values. So 21 you're okay. 22 You may want to claim better

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 150 1 performance. And if you do, you may use an 2 alternative method of determining performance to 3 supply the report and that would be tested. And 4 if you test it, the test procedure may call for 5 you needing to test, you know, two such products 6 or whatever they come up with. But the 7 alternative is test it and report that. 8 Either way, you're bound to have your 9 product perform as represented if tested. In the 10 former case, the pump was tested and these factors 11 were used and that's the standard. In the latter 12 case, the whole thing was tested and that's the 13 standard. 14 MR. BOTELER: Yeah, I think what Mark's 15 worried about is when we supply you the motor 16 data, we're giving you the partial load points at 17 assigned weight and power and then you put it into 18 your system and you test it with the variable 19 frequency drive and the motor loses one or two 20 bands of efficiency as well as the losses from the 21 drive and that's to Ashley's point of a nominal 22 value that takes that into account, right?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 151 1 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, but this is Gary 2 again. The point of confusion here is you're 3 suggesting, Rob, that some report is going to be 4 made based on your representation of motor 5 performance and motor drive performance. And I 6 don't think that's part of the process. 7 Either the default values are used or 8 the product is tested as shipped and its 9 performance is determined. There isn't some in10 between where they're going to be relying on your 11 representation. 12 MR. BOTELER: So if they -- this is Rob 13 again. So if they ship an extended product, they 14 would then always need to test it. 15 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's your position? 17 MR. FERNSTROM: That's my understanding, 18 either that or they need to use the default values 19 that the -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's different, right? 21 MR. FERNSTROM: -- you know, DOE and its 22 consultant has derived.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 152 1 MR. BROOKMAN: The default values, yes. 2 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna, or there's a 3 third option, right, of using certified -- 4 certified motor data, for example, but that's more 5 efficient than the -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think from DOE's 7 perspective, we were looking at this whole thing 8 as defining this is the test procedure. I mean, 9 the three aspects you're talking about from DOE's 10 point of view and one is, you know, the full test. 11 Two is testing pump, calculating -- 12 MR. RAWALD: When you say full test, you 13 mean a full test of the full system? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Wire to water, yes, full 15 system test. Second would be calculating -- 16 testing the pump and then calculating with nominal 17 and that would -- nominal drive and motor and then 18 the third option for consideration, I'm not sure 19 where DOE -- DOE hasn't kind of formulated its 20 thoughts here fully, but would be some alternative 21 calculation method that would allow you to kind of 22 get the gains from higher efficiency motors, more

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 153 1 efficient drive systems and then pair that with 2 your pump test data. 3 So we see that as basically defining as 4 a straw man the what we call test procedure role. 5 MR. ECKMAN: So in that case, that 6 latter case is using certified values for other 7 components in the calculation. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So -- 9 MR. RAWALD: So it's a second set of 10 defaults. 11 MR. ECKMAN: Instead of the minimal 12 default -- minimum compliance defaults. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do you mean by 14 certified values? Do you mean the ones they send 15 in to DOE? 16 MR. ECKMAN: Certified motor values that 17

-- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: They certify nominal 19 now. 20 MR. ECKMAN: Nominal values. 21 MR. BOTELER: So if you're certifying 22 the motor value on the VFD, then you'd have to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 154 1 test it at the points -- whatever the load points 2 and the speed points were with that VFD in order 3 to have an accurate data. 4 MR. HANDZEL: So yeah. 5 MR. BOTELER: So and you're talking 6 about, you know, full temperature. You're talking 7 about a six or seven hour test, talking about a 8 lot of money, a lot of testing, a lot of test 9 data. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the fourth option 11 that we have for -- that brings up a fourth 12 option. Like I said, DOE hasn't flushed out its 13 considerations here yet. But a fourth option that 14 we do for some other products, including motors, 15 is what we call an AEDM and it allows you 16 basically to simulate PER values for the system as 17 a whole. 18 It's purely theoretical-based. It's 19 model- based. Manufacturers may have their own 20 model. It's not a DOE-supplied model and I'm not 21 saying that that's something -- you know, DOE 22 doesn't have an opinion right now in terms of one,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 155 1 two, three, four I don't think outside of what 2 we've already discussed some of the details here. 3 But that is something, a tool that we 4 utilize for other products where there's either a 5 proliferation of basic models based on all the 6 different configurations and unique designs that 7 they offer for customers or a high test burden. 8 MR. BOTELER: How does DOE handle walk9 in freezers? Do you have three components there? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Next to motor -- next to 11 motors, you bring up -- 12 MR. BOTELER: Not a good one, huh? You 13 have three components there though. You have the 14 refrigeration, doors and panels. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We regulate the 16 components separately. That's the easiest way to 17 put that one, so. 18 MR. BOTELER: For the refrigeration -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, for the 20 refrigeration system, we do what I just explained. 21 So we have a full test for the refrigeration 22 system. We have a test for like the evaporator

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 156 1 side where you match it with a nominal condenser. 2 We have another way around where you 3 have a test for the condenser side and you match 4 it with a nominal evaporator for the people in the 5 marketplace that don't make the other parts and 6 don't know how they're going to get installed. 7 And then we have an AEDM for the system as a 8 whole. So those are the four different ways -- 9 MR. BOTELER: An AEDM that's actually a 10 DOE 11 AEDM. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So no, we have AEDM 13 regulations which say there are certain 14 requirements that a manufacturer simulation have 15 to meet, similar to what we do in motors. There's 16 no such thing as a DOE model for anything. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 18 MR. HUBER: Yeah, one of the problems we 19 face that's not so much on motors because you 20 regulate motors. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We try. 22 MR. HUBER: But on controls, what you do

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 157 1 not -- what you do not regulate -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Rob yells at me a lot. 3 MR. HUBER: And we get a -- you know, we 4 get a customer who, you know, I may furnish an ABB 5 or I may furnish a Snyder, I may furnish -- you 6 know, there's, you know, Eaton or Cutler Hammer or 7 all kind of different VFDs out there. 8 I don't want to have to go out as a 9 manufacturer if I'm selling an extended product 10 and certify every possible VFD that could possibly 11 go on one model of a pump. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 13 MR. HUBER: Because then you've got to 14 do it for every model. So how do we -- 15 MR. ADIN: Right. 16 MR. HUBER: How do we get beyond that so 17 that we don't have to do that? 18 MR. ADIN: I mean, that's the purpose of 19 the default. 20 MR. HUBER: So it's the default. 21 MR. BOTELER: That's where you get to a 22 nominal value of some sort that you agreed to I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 158 1 think. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think it's twofold. 3 One is a nominal value. But two, I guess I have a 4 question for you and this is just I apologize for 5 my lack of understanding of the pump world. 6 But how do you market them right now? 7 If you want to show your pump and it's able to be 8 used with all these different types of VFDs that 9 are made by these manufacturers, how do you market 10 them? Like, do you have a brochure that lists all 11 the options? No. 12 MR. HANDZEL: We have a submittal 13 document that if an engineer wants to see all that 14 data, we make it available to them. 15 MR. HUBER: Yeah. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So it's basically 17 through they're spec'ed out by a given customer's 18 needs, right? 19 MR. HUBER: It could be -- it could be 20 by a given customer. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 22 MR. HANDZEL: And customer preference.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 159 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 2 MR. HANDZEL: Or someone could just say 3 I want a drive, they don't ask any questions and 4 then we have a preference. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then you guys -- but 6 it's not like you have -- 7 MR. HUBER: Then you give them some 8 standard drive that you normally use. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- here's my offerings 10 and throw it online with every different 11 variation. 12 MR. HANDZEL: Because we don't base it 13 on -- 14 MR. HUBER: No, we don't do that. We 15 don't do that. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 17 MR. HUBER: Now, motors, yeah, you can 18 do that. You can do it because you regulate it 19 and, you know, if you say a premium efficiency 20 motor, everybody knows what that means. So you 21 can offer all manufacturers and nobody cares. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 160 1 MR. BOTELER: Partial load? 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie -- that's Rob 3 there, not Charlie Cappellino. 4 MR. CAPPELLINO: One of the reasons we 5 can market drives successfully is the energy 6 savings that you get simply by adding the drive 7 far outweigh the difference that you might see 8 from drive manufacturer A, B and C. 9 MR. HANDZEL: Right. 10 MR. CAPPELLINO: So that's how we go and 11 market then. 12 MR. HANDZEL: If anything, you go into a 13 school and they want all drives of one 14 manufacturer, so. 15 MR. CAPPELLINO: You save, you know, 30 16 or 40 percent of the energy. Why argue over 1 or 17 2 percent? 18 MR. HUBER: You never see -- 19 MR. HANDZEL: Exactly, and as I -- 20 MR. HUBER: You never see -- you never 21 see in any public domain that I've ever seen 22 anybody ask for a certain efficient control. Just

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 161 1 you never see it. And the manufacturers really 2 don't want to talk about it. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it doesn't really 4 work like that, right? 5 MR. BOTELER: It doesn't mean anything. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, keep going. 8 Charlie? 9 MR. BOTELER: We tested some. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's make sure we can 11 understand the record here. Charlie? 12 MR. CAPPELLINO: So what would seem to 13 make sense is the pump efficiency regulation, I 14 think that's clear. We got that taken care of, 15 right? I think for the motors, I mean, if you can 16 have -- I think we talked about this earlier. If 17 you can have a choice of different nominals for, 18 you know, a basic motor, a premium efficiency 19 motor that you can plug into your calculator -- 20 MR. HANDZEL: But the basic motor is the 21 premium efficiency motor. 22 MR. HUBER: It is.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 162 1 MR. HANDZEL: The standard is. 2 MR. BOTELER: By the time the rule comes 3 out 4

-- 5 MR. CAPPELLINO: But that could change 6 over time, right? I mean, you can -- 7 MR. HANDZEL: DOE goes after Rob and 8 says -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: After six years. 10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Well, I guess the point 11 -- the point being since motors have a standard, 12 you can calculate anything based on whatever 13 standard you specify, right? So if you choose to 14

-- 15 MR. BOTELER: But the standard for 16 motors is 17

-- 18 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- if you choose to, 19 you could have different calculations for 20 different motors that meet different standards. 21 The problem with the drives, as was said earlier, 22 there is no standard.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 163 1 So maybe we just leave that one as the 2 nominal. You have a nominal efficiency for the 3 drive and you just do it -- and you always do a 4 calculation for that. You don't test. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: You could do it. 6 MR. BOTELER: So we just need the 7 nominal recertification values so all is better 8 when we test it. 9 MR. HUBER: Exactly. That was my 10 concern. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's the idea 12 generally behind our premise in nominal values. 13 You know, to incentivize those that either, A, may 14 want to test and claim higher efficiencies but, B, 15 not to overstate, to conservative rate and that's 16 how our rating system is generally set up for all 17 products. 18 MR. ADIN: But to get to a point -- back 19 to a point that was brought up earlier, we're not 20 trying to regulate the efficiency of the drive. I 21 think we all understand that. We want to be able 22 to recognize the energy savings that are inherent

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 164 1 from using variable speed applications. 2 So the only point -- well, I mean, I 3 think we just basically covered it but that 4 default value -- just it has to be in there so you 5 have a more representative value of the impact of 6 the slight loss in efficiency of that drive. 7 MR. BOTELER: If the -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob, Rob? 9 MR. BOTELER: If the test rule would 10 want that information from the NEMA drive 11 manufacturers, you know, a quick email form Ashley 12 to us and, you know, somebody, I think we could 13 probably supply that. 14 MR. HANDZEL: A NEMA value? 15 MR. BOTELER: Nominal, nominal drive 16 value at, you know, 100, 75 and 50 which is what 17 we do on motors, 100, 75 and 50. 18 MR. HUBER: Yeah, we've got 25. 19 MR. BOTELER: Or and 25, okay. On 20 motors we gave you 25 too. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it Jeff? Jeff wants 22 to speak. Jeff, stand up.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 165 1 MR. ALASCIO: This is Jeff Alascio from 2 ABB. The reality is that they don't exist public 3 today for drives. 4 MR. BOTELER: Right. 5 MR. ALASCIO: You would put an onerous 6 testing requirement on all the drive manufacturers 7 if you asked us today to go measure it because it 8 is going to be different based on the type of 9 motor used, i.e., you're not even referencing a 10 synchronous reluctance motor which generally has a 11 higher efficiency rating than an induction motor 12 only drive. Generally I would say -- and we've got 13 some Rockwell gentlemen here too -- that the 14 difference, back to his point earlier, the 15 difference in efficiency of the solution when you 16 put a drive pump on it with a controller versus 17 the differences in efficiency between manufactures 18 of drive, right? 19 And so, I don't know that any 20 manufacturer today has a published document that 21 says our drives are this efficient on this type of 22 motor at these type of loads or speeds. So I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 166 1 mean, which is back to Al's point that getting 2 that data is very difficult. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: And honestly, I mean, my 4 opinion of this, and you know, I'm going to let 5 Lucas stare at me if I'm kind of wrong, but I 6 don't think DOE needs that level of detail nor do 7 I think we're -- you know, what we're trying to do 8 is differentiate between what we understand to be 9 a better way to do things, for lack of a better 10 term. 11 And so, we can do that in a simplified 12 manner with nominal values and ratios. Now, sure, 13 it would be most helpful if the NEMA drive 14 manufacturers would help inform what those nominal 15 values be. 16 But I don't think we need the level of 17 detail that, you know, you were speaking of in 18 terms of getting all the testing to inform that 19 decision. 20 I'm pretty sure you guys know, you know, 21 enough that -- and we know enough about our regs - 22 - how we can structure something so that those

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 167 1 people that want to make representations of what 2 their pump, motor, drive system would be, you 3 know, that are using variable speed technology, et 4 cetera, et cetera, et cetera, someone could see a 5 benefit. 6 In other words, you could at least 7 differentiate them enough to know that that's a 8 better system when installed this way in the 9 field. And I think really that's the answer we're 10 going for, right? 11 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Without undue test 13 burden. 14 MR. BOTELER: And I would rather give 15 you that data than having DOE make up that data 16 yourselves. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: So thank you, Rob. Now, 18 Louis? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So Rob's going to 20 spearhead this effort and he's going to report 21 back out next week. 22 MR. BOTELER: I need a letter from you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 168 1 that -- asking -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It'll be in your inbox 3 tonight. 4 MR. ECKMAN: It's being composed as you 5 speak. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: What am I supposed to 8 say again? 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 10 MR. STARR: So the other thing to 11 consider too is that, you know, the company 12 manufacturers went ahead and tested a certain 13 combination to actually start informing the 14 markets that they specify a certain way. 15 In other words, if you did it with this 16 kind of drive and this kind of motor and they 17 start seeing that in the tested data and it beats 18 out what the nominal value calculating, you can 19 actually shift the market to specifying that type 20 of thing and you start to see -- and maybe even 21 the drive manufacturers would help you out with 22 some of the testing costs if you use their drives

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 169 1 as opposed to someone else's. There's a lot of 2 other things that seem like could happen. 3 MR. HANDZEL: Most of us have -- Mark 4 Handzel, from Xylem. Most of us have selection 5 programs that do variable speed operation modeling 6 that could possibly be set up to do wire to water 7 efficiency calculations that could develop a 8 metric that could be used by -- for rebate 9 purposes, okay. 10 So I mean, there's lots of ways we can 11 do it. But I think we want to make it so it can 12 be easily done, okay? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think -- I think 14 the key to your statement here is that your 15 simulations that you might could alter to come up 16 with a wire to water metric to be used for need to 17 be done in accordance with the DOE test 18 procedures. 19 So this is where it's really important 20 that whatever methodology you might implement in 21 those simulations to get to -- 22 MR. HANDZEL: Right, using your

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 170 1 calculated - - the calculated way that you say we 2 should do it. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, we'd like you to 4 inform that decision, right, or to help us get to 5 that decision. So I think, yes. 6 MR. HANDZEL: Well, and if you do it, it 7 makes all of us do it the same way. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, that's key here. 9 MR. HANDZEL: Because otherwise he might 10 do it different than him and then, you know. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. So I think 12 that's what we would be looking to. 13 MR. ADIN: That's why this is all in the 14 test procedure. 15 MR. HANDZEL: No, it's fine. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case? 18 MR. CASE: Greg Case with HI. I guess 19 one of my big concerns is should we want to test, 20 as Louis just went to -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 22 MR. CASE: -- we need to be able to beat

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 171 1 whatever the calculated value us. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct, the nominal 3 value is. 4 MR. ADIN: Right. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 6 MR. CASE: So there's got to be an 7 incentive for us to put that energy into this. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, we agree with that. 10 and I think, you know, if you guys 11 finish stuff today, like those are details that we 12 can talk about in the extra days, like so, you 13 know, we have proposals for things and if you 14 guys, you know, say, hey, we know that proposal is 15 not conservative enough, then that's what we'd 16 like your feedback on. So we agree with that 17 position and I think if, you know -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Those are the type of 19 details that we had planned to work through in the 20 test procedure stuff, so perhaps some of those 21 details we could just discuss tomorrow and the 22 next day.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 172 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 2 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just wanted to put a 3 plug in for the idea that the energy savings by 4 employing a drive in a lot of these applications 5 where a drive is advantaged are so large and you 6 should try and keep the complexity from a 7 customer's point of view and a manufacturer's 8 point of view down to a bare minimum to get as 9 high an adoption rate as you can. 10 I mean, that's where you're going to get 11 your biggest energy savings and everything else. 12 So just don't make it overly complex for either 13 the manufacturer or the consumer to be able to get 14 that drive out there, market it and get it into 15 the marketplace. So I think we're all headed in 16 the right direction. Just be cognizant of the 17 fact that that's usually the number one thing that 18 prevents people from adopting an extended product 19 solution is the complexity of implementations. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 21 MR. CAPPELLINO: So don't make it overly 22 complex.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 173 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Keep it simple and 3 you'll get all that energy savings. Don't make it 4 so simple that you're trying to fine-tune 5 something that people say, well, that's too 6 complicated for me, I'm just going to throw a 7 standard pump in there with a fixed motor. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I agree. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So have we 10 covered it now? 11 MR. HANDZEL: I think we've agreed for 12 everything. We just need to come up with how 13 we're going to do it. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, there's a lot of 15 details that we need to work through. 16 MR. HANDZEL: Exactly. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: And perhaps it might be 18 best that DOE take a couple things back and try to 19 come up with a strategy to go through some of 20 those details tomorrow to the extent people would 21 be willing to do that with us. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: I think this group has

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 174 1 said previously in previous meetings they 2 definitely wanted to do that. 3 MR. STARR: Before that guy leaves, I 4 have a question. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Before that guy -- that 6 guy? 7 MR. STARR: Louis Starr. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Before that guy. 9 MR. RAWALD: I've never been called that 10 before. 11 MR. STARR: He's the regulatory -- I 12 just wanted to make sure that -- I think we talked 13 about this early on but I think it's important 14 that distributors DOE requires the pump 15 manufacturers. I'm kind of concerned a little bit 16 about how that's going to work in the regular 17 course of the DOE in that all manufacturers don't 18 have the same part. Distributors are held to the 19 same requirements that the pump manufacturers are, 20 so. 21 MR. RAWALD: Yeah, that's a talking 22 point for us to talk about and to come back to you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 175 1 on. We definitely don't have an idea on that -- 2 an answer on that at the moment. 3 MR. STARR: Okay, but you think that's a 4 good idea. 5 MR. RAWALD: I can't -- I'm not going to 6 -- I'm not going to opine for the department. So 7

-- 8 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I want us 9 to make sure that there's a value of doing that 10 before we go down that road. 11 MR. STARR: Yeah. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, and I think it 13 would be -- 14 MS. MAUER: In terms of energy savings 15 and impacts on the manufacturers and I'm not sure 16 if there's a value. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: This was a discussion 18 that came up in several previous meetings. 19 MR. HANDZEL: Early on, by distributors. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: About how anybody 21 involved in this chain from manufacturer all the 22 way to distributors that maybe coupled some pieces

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 176 1 together, what the -- what' the definition of 2 manufacturer. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know, Doug, I think 4 we're -- well, I think we'll pretty much have to 5 discuss that. Until we have how this test 6 procedure would look like, what this rating would 7 look like, we now have the component of this. 8 But until we look at it more 9 holistically as to what the regulatory pieces 10 might look like, I think we're a little premature 11 in discussing, okay, well, who is that entity 12 quite responsible for doing all these different 13 pieces and how is that all going to work together. 14 That is something that would come down 15 the road. But you know, and like Joanna said, 16 we'd like to see, you know, to the extent there 17 are different people involved, you know, it'd be 18 interesting to see what the thoughts are here. 19 But I don't think at this point the department is 20 ready or willing to provide its position on that. 21 It's just -- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: So Louis, does that mean

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 177 1 Doug could leave? 2 MR. STARR: Yeah. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to thank -- one 4 more question. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's okay. Go ahead. 6 MR. HANDZEL: I want to come back to the 7 sampling issue, okay? 8 MR. RAWALD: Okay. 9 MR. HANDZEL: Because for example, so my 10 company redesigned one of their product lines, 11 okay? We've fully qualified all of the new 12 designs. We've fully tested them. Can I say that 13 we've sampled two pumps in every model? I don't 14 think I can. 15 But I'm very comfortable that I can 16 duplicate that performance data on every model 17 that I could sell to somebody now. So my intention 18 would be to not go through and retest two pumps of 19 every model. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: But you have to test them 21 according to the DOE test procedure. 22 MR. STARR: Which isn't complete yet.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 178 1 MR. HANDZEL: But I do that already. I 2 mean, everything I test -- unless they change 3 something significantly, we're already doing it, 4 okay? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think until we have 6 the -- so the first thing is to work out the 7 details of what the DOE test procedure should look 8 like, will look like. 9 MR. HANDZEL: Which we've been helping 10 you do. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we're going to 12 continue to do, right? 13 MR. HANDZEL: Mm-hmm. (Affirmative.) 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Once we have that, it's 15 then how many units might have to be tested 16 because it might be that we come out with, you 17 know, method A/B/C/D which is, A, wire to water, 18 B, pump-only test, nominal values for the other 19 two -- 20 MR. HANDZEL: See, you reopen the whole 21 thing then. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: C, pump value -- you see

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 179 1 what I'm saying, you know? 2 MR. HANDZEL: Right. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so, that is -- 4 providing those calculation methods, you know, 5 whatever that is, is going to reduce your test 6 burden too. 7 So it might be that testing more than 8 one for a handful of small, you know, subset of 9 pumps is reasonable, but maybe not. Maybe there's 10 not enough variation to matter. I don't know 11 enough. 12 MR. HANDZEL: So Tom, I would just put a 13 flag that our ability to provide, you know, early 14 qualifications -- 15 MR. HUBER: Early certifications. 16 MR. HANDZEL: -- is going to be totally 17 hinged on what they tell us we have to do because 18 many of us are -- you know, because if we have to 19 go back and retest everything, a multiple piece of 20 each one in different configurations, I mean, 21 we're looking at years of testing. 22 MR. ECKMAN: We understood that. We

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 180 1 didn't think this was going to -- 2 MR. HANDZEL: And I have to say that I 3 don't think that we've ever considered the cost of 4 testing in any economic model that we've done. 5 MS. WIDDER: Not yet. 6 MR. HANDZEL: Because, I mean, that kind 7 of testing, I mean, you know, we have limited 8 facilities 9

-- 10 MR. RAWALD: Sure, sure. 11 MR. HANDZEL: We have customers paying 12 us to have products tested. So if we have to 13 pull, you know, all those things through our test 14 lab, we'll be running them 24 hours a day, 365 15 days a year. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the reality is at the 17 end of the day, we end up adopting a test 18 procedure for which you can say I have certified 19 PER. 20 I have PER values that have been 21 developed in accordance with the DOE test 22 procedure requirements and you're willing to sign

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 181 1 a legal statement that says such because that's 2 what your certification report does, then you have 3 your data. 4 MR. HANDZEL: Have somebody else sign 5 it, not me. 6 (Laughter.) 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I've got somebody 8 else who will call and ask about it. 9 MR. BOTELER: You're on the hook for 10 liability in a court of law. If you agree with 11 that, we're good to go. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what -- right, 13 that's it. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So really it's going to 15 come down to the details, right? 16 MR. HANDZEL: No, exactly, exactly. But 17 that's why we hear all that -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 19 MR. HANDZEL: -- because none of us have 20 been down this road before. So we're learning a 21 lot today even though we just passed a very 22 important part to this group. We're still

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 182 1 learning. 2 MR. ADIN: Yeah, we want to make sure 3 you understand every part of how this would work 4 before you -- 5 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so, all right, when 7 you go to do it, there will be a ton of more 8 questions and, you know, we will be here to answer 9 those and work with you. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so thanks to both 11 of you for coming. Really appreciate that. That 12 was -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, I get out of this 14 too? That's even better. I thought just Doug was 15 getting excused. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? 17 MR. FERNSTROM: Will we see -- this is 18 Gary. Will we see Ashley tomorrow or later in this 19 process? 20 MR. BROOKMAN: To discuss the test 21 procedure? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to see

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 183 1 Ashley tomorrow? Oh, Ashley cannot be around 2 tomorrow morning but I can be around tomorrow 3 afternoon. 4 But nonetheless, we -- I think -- so I 5 don't know what -- do you guys have an agenda? 6 But I think it would be worthwhile if we take an 7 hour to talk about some things in preparation for 8 tomorrow morning if possible. 9 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I don't know that 11 we need to do much more. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know what else 13 you guys want to talk about today, if you want to 14 claim victory, celebrate your victory, watch some 15 soccer and kind of reconvene tomorrow to discuss 16 some of these details with the test procedure. 17 It might be good if DOE gets their ducks 18 in order in terms of what we would like to present 19 in terms of ideas for -- give us -- 20 MR. BROOKMAN: So the remaining items, 21 in addition to our -- this is almost like a World 22 Cup victory, what we've done today, setting the --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 184 1 establishing the standard levels. 2 We still need to take up the metric 3 issues and we needed to have a more detailed 4 consideration of test procedure, both of which 5 would benefit from a little bit more development 6 from staff and the DOE side, right? 7 So neither of those are in a position 8 for us to take up additionally today. Is there 9 anything else we can plausibly do today or should 10 we just say yea and leave here today? 11 MR. HUBER: How far away are -- let me 12 ask a question. How far aware are we from 13 developing these test procedures? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not that far. 15 MR. HUBER: I didn't think so. 16 MS. WIDDER: We've been discussing it 17 over these meetings for some time. 18 MR. HUBER: Yeah, but you haven't -- are 19 you at a point where you can present to us? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think that's what 21 we want to talk about maybe without you first. 22 I'm just saying --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 185 1 MR. HUBER: You're just saying that. 2 That's okay. 3 MR. HANDZEL: Just don't put us on mute, 4 okay? 5 MR. HUBER: That's all right. And I 6 don't have any problem with that. But if that's 7 what you talk about and you come in here tomorrow 8 and are ready to present to us what the test 9 procedure is or you think it's going to look like, 10 then I think we can get -- you know, we can get a 11 lot accomplished. 12 If you don't, if you just parse out a 13 little bit here, there and we're thinking about 14 this but we might do that kind of stuff, you're 15 not going to get very far. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well -- 17 MS. WILLIAMS: So do we want it more 18 holistically than we've been doing thus far? 19 MR. HUBER: Yes. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 21 MR. HUBER: In other words, we presented 22 HI's -- what is it, 40.7.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 186 1 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, right. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you want to know 3 where -- 4 MR. HANDZEL: What's going to be done. 5 MR. HUBER: Are you going to adopt that, 6 that's what we want to know. 7 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, what else is being 8 changed from what we gave you in 40.7. 9 MR. HUBER: Six. 10 MR. HANDZEL: Six. 11 MR. HUBER: Six. 12 MR. HANDZEL: Sorry. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, because like we've 14 been mostly talking about how you add on to 40.6 15 so far. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I really think the -- 17 okay, so I'm speaking a little out of turn here. 18 But I think that the details are going to be 19 downstream of 40 point -- 20 MR. HANDZEL: Six. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Rather than what changes 22 we might consider to 40.6. In other words, you

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 187 1 need to be worried about motor stuff, pump stuff, 2 nominal values, how you come up with your PER 3 integrated metric, that kind of stuff more so than 4 the actual test, in my opinion. But we can work - 5 - let us talk about some stuff and see. 6 MR. HUBER: Well, if you're not going to 7 change it, that's fine with us. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I didn't -- I didn't say 9 that. 10 MR. HUBER: It's okay. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have not seen our 12 proposal yet. But at the same time, I think the 13 intention is to utilize as much of the industry 14 standard without changing it as opposed to -- how 15 about that? 16 MR. HUBER: That gives us some comfort. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Louis Starr? 18 MR. STARR: I was going to try to give 19 some perspective to kind of DOE of what it looks 20 like in the market. Normally, this would take six 21 or seven months for test procedures. So it's all 22 getting condensed down for the procedure tests.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 188 1 So I think as you saw from the calculation error, 2 probably if you had more time -- 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Thanks, Louis. 4 MR. STARR: Well -- 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Now that the bosses are 6 in the room, thanks. 7 MR. BOTELER: They call it a left-handed 8 comment. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: So I haven't gotten any 10 direct read yet. But I think that we're done for 11 today, I think, unless there's other issues to be 12 discussed that I don't know about. 13 MR. FERNSTROM: Vote? 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Vote? 15 MR. FERNSTROM: Weren't we going to have 16 some kind of -- oh, we did. This is Gary. 17 MR. HANDZEL: He's starting the 18 celebration early. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 20 MR. HANDZEL: Where's that flask? 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, what'd you have for 22 lunch? So just to confirm, we had a unanimous

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 189 1 vote with one abstention and one absence -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's great. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: -- for the established 4 standard level. So that's good work. Let's call 5 it a day, shall we? Meg, before we go? 6 MS. WALTNER: Yeah, I just had one 7 question in terms of process in developing an 8 actual term sheet. Is that something -- is DOE 9 going to draft and propose that and are we going 10 to start looking at that language over the next 11 two days or is that going to happen -- 12 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: And there are some other 15 issues -- based on previous votes, like we should 16 confirm the scope. But I mean, do a final 17 confirmation on some of the other agreements we've 18 made previously. 19 MR. ADIN: That's what a term sheet 20 does. 21 MS. WALTNER: Where we can iron out 22 actual -

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 190 1 - 2 MR. ADIN: The term sheet is a list of 3 all of the things that we voted on, right? 4 So we'll write up a draft document that 5 says this group met and voted, you know, and here 6 are all the recommendations that we have from 7 ASRAC and there was a unanimous vote or whatever 8 on each item and they'll just be all listed out 9 and we'll go through that together. We'll put it 10 up on the screen and make sure we all agree with 11 the language. 12 MS. WALTNER: Okay. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So can I make one 14 suggestion? So the way we did it in commercial 15 cert, the previous negotiated rulemaking, you're 16 more than welcome to sit here and go through it on 17 the screen and tweak away. We just sent it out 18 and I know you guys love SharePoint. I heard that 19 you guys love SharePoint. 20 MR. HANDZEL: Al especially. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So Al, you can edit away 22 on SharePoint here. But you know, you can send

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 191 1 back edits and we can consolidate. I will say 2 with a caveat that as long as the general premise 3 is right. It's got to go in our regulatory text 4 anyway, in our DOE format. 5 So the odds that it gets tweaked, we 6 have every intention of fully honoring all our 7 negotiations here as we have previously. But by 8 the time I get it -- we get it through like three 9 or four lawyers and then Dan, you know, it'll be 10 edited away anyway. 11 So you know, I wouldn't say your best 12 efforts are spent word tweaking any language in 13 particular in the term sheet, as long as you agree 14 with the general premise, the voting, and you've 15 captured the intent or any caveats that you'd like 16 to put in there. I think you're good. 17 MR. ADIN: Right, just to clarify, 18 that's all I meant is that we're capturing intent. 19 But yeah, thanks. 20 MR. COHEN: Just to clarify further, on 21 the words, clear intention is what's key, right? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's what --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 192 1 exactly. 2 MR. COHEN: And that's the key thing, 3 right? The words less but as long as you're very 4 clear exactly what it is you're agreed to. 5 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie? 7 MR. CAPPELLINO: I was just wondering in 8 the spirit of trying to drive things to conclusion 9 here, is there anything that you'd like us to 10 think about this afternoon and this evening in 11 preparation for tomorrow? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: How you want to come up 13 with a nominal value for a drive. 14 MR. CAPPELLINO: I'm not sure about that 15 one. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: How about that? 17 MR. BOTELER: 98, 96, 94. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Done. All right, Mark, 19 you have something? 20 MR. HANDZEL: No, my question is along 21 the same line as Charlie's. So I think the one 22 sign says we're starting at 9:00 tomorrow.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 193 1 MS. MARCHETTI: Sorry, I can't hear the 2 person who's talking. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me, one person at 4 a time. Mark Handzel, please. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you're good. 6 MR. HANDZEL: Just confirming we're 7 going to start at 9:00 tomorrow and also just 8 wanted to, along Charlie's lines, what else is on 9 the agenda for tomorrow, what -- I mean, before we 10 go out and celebrate, what should we be preparing 11 for? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: The two items for 13 tomorrow are metric and test procedure. 14 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think it's really 16 walking through test procedure and then how you 17 would come up with a rated value and what that 18 means in DOE's world and what you would have to 19 do. 20 And some of those nitty-gritty details 21 that maybe we haven't ironed out yet but you might 22 have opinions or help inform those. Does that

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 194 1 work? 2 MR. HANDZEL: Okay, great. 3 MR. HUBER: We're good. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: And you'll recall we 5 established meeting dates in July. Several 6 individuals this morning said, boy, let's see if 7 we can get through this in the month of June. 8 We're on a pathway now to being very, very 9 productive. 10 We'll keep that up tomorrow and see 11 where we stand, okay? So tomorrow, 9:00 a.m., in 12 8-E in the Forrestal Building, right, the same 13 building -- the same big room we've been meeting 14 in previously. So another round of applause as we 15 head off for the day. 16 (Applause.) 17 MR. BROOKMAN: See you tomorrow at 9:00 18 a.m. 19 (Whereupon, the foregoing 20 adjourned at 2:26 p.m.) 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-17-2014

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 4 I, BENJAMIN GRAHAM, hereby certify that I am not 5 the Court Reporter who reported the following 6 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of 7 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes 8 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 9 is a true, correct, and complete transcription of 10 said proceeding. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Date

# ~-~~C;J2J.~ nj@jfin Graham Transcriptionist

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 195

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 139:20 140:21 142:5 144:15,22 146:14 158:7 163:21 170:22 172:13 above-referenced 1:15 absence 189:1 absent9:6 101:19,20 102:6 149:5 absolutely131:17 181:18 abstaining 94:1 abstention 93:22 100:5 101:21,22 189:1 abstentions 101:15,17 accept 53:16 62:13 accepting87:11 94:4 99:18 accomplished 77:22 185:11 accordance169:17 180:21 according177:21 accordingly 136:12 account62:15 150:22 accurate27:11 35:10 42:15 154:3 ACEEE 74:10 109:3 achieve54:17 63:20 66:18 acknowledge 36:9

across 27:22 30:14 31:3,21 32:8 33:21 34:16 49:17 121:3 129:18 140:18 actual42:10 58:21 103:13,15 119:7 187:4 189:8,22 actually10:19 14:22 17:9 19:6,22 24:12 25:12,19 36:18 39:17 43:21 47:20 58:9,18 60:12 61:13 90:14 96:13 98:1 108:19 111:10 120:19 123:15 133:10 142:11 144:5,8 156:9 168:13,19 add 13:5,7 44:21 60:3 73:22 110:3 143:2 186:14 added 41:12 56:14 adding 160:6 addition 85:5 103:15 123:6 146:21 183:21 additional 22:3 48:14,19 61:3 75:5 90:22 94:18 134:5 additionally 184:8 address 140:13 141:2 142:8 adds 20:10 Adin 2:3 6:15 9:19 13:3,4 15:5,20 16:5,10,13 30:8

32:4,8,20 35:15,20 54:13 56:20 57:1 62:2 70:9,13,18 71:11 84:14,22 85:3,8 89:7,9,14,17 90:10 92:4,7 93:16 94:6,10,12,19,21 95:3,15 97:6 98:1,5 108:14,17 117:13,18 132:18,22 133:4,9 136:19 137:2,12 142:7 144:5 148:12,16 149:2 157:15,18 163:18 167:11 170:13 171:4 182:2 183:9 189:12,19 190:2 191:17 192:5 Adjourn 4:14 adjourned 194:20 adjuncts 86:2 adjust63:6 administrative 84:6 adopt105:16 186:5 adopting 172:18 180:17 adoption 172:9 adopts 137:17 advance 85:11 advantage 92:8 139:9 advantaged 172:5 ADVISORY

1:4 AEDM154:15

156:7,9,11,12 affairs 54:12,14 affect11:1 12:9,12 62:20 124:16 affects 123:11,12 Affirmative24:3 27:7 139:19 140:7 178:13 afternoon 85:15 183:3 192:10 agenda97:8 183:5 193:9 ago 10:7 11:15 agreed36:15 39:9 63:20 64:22 75:19 77:1 82:11 92:22 95:11 103:16 110:6,9 115:6 135:21 157:22 173:11 192:4 agreement27:9 57:12 65:13 66:2,3 72:2,7,10 77:1 92:21 agreements 18:22 27:6 66:16 189:17 ahead 113:5,7,13,15 119:19 122:2 168:12 177:5 air124:21 Al4:18 7:15 9:18,22 28:4,5 36:9 37:19 44:1,3 46:8 55:20 56:5 64:11 71:21 73:15

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 74:21 83:4 98:22 99:1,3 120:4 121:6 122:2 131:18 132:9 139:14 156:17 190:20,21 Alascio 2:9 7:22 165:1,5 Albert2:20 4:5 Alison 3:8 4:7,11 8:9 12:20 13:6 29:10 48:21 66:20 70:2 95:20 143:8 Alliance 3:3 7:5 allow 104:11 120:9 152:21 allowed 136:13 allows 79:4 120:16 154:15 alone 47:7 already30:9 33:18 34:19 52:10 93:22 115:6 134:6 135:17 155:2 178:1,3 Al's 89:19 137:8 166:1 alter169:15 alternate101:10 alternative 150:2,7 152:20 am111:5 121:8,9 168:7 195:4 American 2:22 among99:21 amongst 30:16 114:21 amount 107:11 analyses 17:8 analysis 21:7 26:18 31:9 56:16 analyst63:13 analytical54:7 75:3 93:14 analyze 32:10 animal64:8 annual 51:8 answer49:11 104:2 105:3 114:8 135:18 137:15 167:9 175:2 182:8 answered 137:8 anticipate 54:16 anybody9:8 48:1 53:13 160:22 175:20 anybody's 70:22 anymore38:15 anyone 42:8 anything 13:4,7 37:11 54:4,5 55:19 63:6 81:10 86:20 109:21 116:16 156:16 160:12 161:5 162:12 184:9 192:9 anyway20:16 21:10,15 28:12,21 36:4 59:17 67:1 115:19 135:8 191:4,10 apologies 21:6 apologize 10:17 11:18 21:18,22 36:5 65:20 94:10 98:2 158:4 applaud 72:4 applause 72:5 100:7 194:14,16 Appliance 1:4 2:21 7:6 applicable 32:1 135:5 application 134:11 applications 164:1 172:4 applied 135:3,4 applies 93:5 apply121:3 appreciate 90:17,19 100:16 182:11 appreciation 92:18 approach 67:15 appropriateness 142:22 approved 149:20 approximately 24:22 arbitrarily24:14 142:3 area123:20 aren't32:1 61:2 65:10 82:11 argue 160:16 Armstrong2:4 5:3 98:3,6,9 99:3 101:19 102:15,22 104:1 106:1,21

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 183:12 184:14,20 185:16 186:2,16,21 187:8,11 188:19 189:2,13 190:13,21 191:22 192:12,16 193:5,15 arrive110:22 137:20 arrived148:2 artificially147:18 Ashley2:4 5:3 98:18,20 99:3 102:10 111:14 122:10 144:14 164:11 182:18 183:1 Ashley's 150:21 aspect20:16 103:20 aspects 152:9 ASRAC 54:18 190:7 ASRAC's 54:18 assigned 117:15 150:17 associated35:3 138:14 149:17 assume67:6 83:13 86:12 assumed10:8 assuming92:3 104:16 143:10,11 assumption 10:9 43:4 attorney 99:12 Automation 2:19 7:21 available 75:11 78:11 83:18 85:12 141:22 142:2 147:16 158:14 average27:10 46:10 49:12 134:16 awarding 81:4 aware 132:12,15 184:12 Awareness 2:21 7:7 away184:11 190:17,21 191:10 aye 99:19 B backed 43:20 bad 133:15 badge 71:2 91:15 balance 77:8 bam71:6 bands 150:20 bar24:16 Barbour2:10 7:10 23:17,19 24:4 25:22 26:7,22 bare 44:9 47:13 85:5 127:21 128:2 137:9 138:12 139:1 148:6,8 172:8 base 104:7 131:17 159:12

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164:3 beat170:22 beats 168:17 becomes 38:6 135:19 begin 13:15 98:2 102:9 beginning 18:4 23:7 30:1 33:10 begun 102:12 behalf 37:8 55:21 behind 163:12 beige 124:9 believe 6:8 14:15 35:9 48:22 57:11 73:16 Beloit101:10 bene 106:3 beneficial22:2 benefit149:8 167:5 184:5 Benjamin 195:4,14 BEP 128:11 134:11,12,13 138:5 Berkeley3:8 4:7,12 8:10 best11:20 12:7,18 14:1,8 57:7,9 59:5 91:9 173:18 191:11 better 32:4 105:20 118:4 139:17 145:13 149:22 163:7 166:9 167:8 182:14

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