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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **ASRAC COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL PUMPS WORKING GROUP** 

**+ + + + + PUBLIC MEETING** 

**+ + + + + FRIDAY**  **JANUARY 31, 2014 + + + + +**  **The Public Meeting met in Room 8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.,**  **Washington, D.C., at 8:00 a.m, Doug Brookman, Meeting Facilitator, presiding.**  **PRESENT DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator**  **LUCAS ADIN, Department of Energy DANIEL COHEN, Department of Energy**  **ELIZABETH KOHL, Department of Energy DOUG RAWALD, Department of Energy**  **ALSO PRESENT ROBERT ASDAL, Hydraulic Institute**  **ROBERT BARBOUR, TACO, Inc. ROBERT BOTELER, Nidec Motor Corporation**  **CHARLES CAPPELLINO, ITT Corporation GREG CASE, Pump Design, Development &**  **Diagnostics, L.L.C. TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation**  **Council**

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor-Owned- Utilities**  **CHARLES FOSTER, Edison Electric Institute MARK HANDZEL, Xylem Corporation**  **ALBERT HUBER, Patterson Pump Company PAUL LIN, Regal Beloit**  **JOHN MASTERS, Danfoss Group JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness**  **Project LAURA PETRILLO-GROH, Air-Conditioning,**  **Heating, and Refrigeration Institute DOUGLAS POTTS, American Water**  **CHARLES POWERS, Flowserve Corporation Industrial Pumps**  **CALLIE REIS, Navigant Consulting MIKE RIVEST, Navigant Consulting ** * **STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency**  **Alliance STEVE THOMPSON, TACO, Inc.**  **GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos USA MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council**  **DANIEL WEINTRAUB, Navigant Consulting SARAH WIDDER, Pacific Northwest National**  **Laboratory ALISON WILLIAMS, Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory** ***Participated via teleconference**

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **TABLE OF CONTENTS Welcome. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4**  **Opening Remarks. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 Testing Overview . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14**  **Test Procedure (cont'd). . . . . . . . . . . 125 Data Requests. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 259**  **Agenda-Setting for Next Meeting. . . . . . . 321 Conclusions and Closing Remarks. . . . . . . 332**  **Adjourn**

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  **2 (8:07 a.m.)**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning,**  **4 everyone. Let's begin. Please take your**  **5 seats.**  **6 Good morning, everyone, again, and**  **7 welcome. This is the second day of the second**  **8 public meeting on Commercial/Industrial Water**  **9 Pumps Working Group.**  **10 Today is Friday, January 31, 2014,**  **11 here in the Forrestal Building in Washington,**  **12 D.C.**  **13 Thanks for being here early. We**  **14 are getting an early start. We intend to**  **15 adjourn today at 3:00, so everybody can make**  **16 it to the airport or catch trains, whatever**  **17 they need to do.**  **18 We made a lot of progress**  **19 yesterday, a very good discussion, and I**  **20 continue to be pleased by both the quality and**  **21 the depth of the investigation during the**  **22 course of the day, and we'll have another** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 chance to keep doing that today.**  **2 All of you received a packet of**  **3 information yesterday, PowerPoint slides, and**  **4 an agenda. I'm going to suggest that for**  **5 today we do as was referenced, as planned, in**  **6 the agenda yesterday, reflected in yesterday's**  **7 agenda, an opportunity after I finish this**  **8 the agenda review for opening remarks, should**  **9 there be any. We'll go from there directly**  **10 into a testing overview.**  **11 We will take a break mid morning**  **12 around about 10:15 or so, and then continuing**  **13 perhaps a more detailed discussion on test**  **14 procedure, and then after that the global**  **15 issue of data requests. We will break for**  **16 lunch around about 12:30 or so, and then talk**  **17 about what we need to do agenda setting for**  **18 the next meeting, what we need to do looking**  **19 ahead to make sure we're prepared for the**  **20 upcoming meetings, an opportunity at the end**  **21 of the day for closing remarks from all**  **22 present.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Also, I'd like to see if it's**  **2 possible today to see if we can establish**  **3 something I don't want to make this sound**  **4 too awfully difficult or permanent. I'd like**  **5 to see if it's possible to continue the**  **6 discussion on scope, and see if we can get a**  **7 clearer understanding of where we're going**  **8 with scope. I think we made a lot of progress**  **9 in that discussion yesterday, and so we will**  **10 see where that fits in the day's work.**  **11 So questions and comments on the**  **12 agenda that is proposed for today?**  **13 (No response.)**  **14 One or two members said that they**  **15 would be late this morning. Steve Rosenstock**  **16 sent an email saying he is going to be a**  **17 little late.**  **18 Mark Handzel.**  **19 MR. HANDZEL: Just there's a lot**  **20 of time this morning budgeted for a discussion**  **21 of testing. I just wanted to see what was**  **22 planned for that section, since there's so** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 much time budgeted for it.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And let's**  **3 launch into it. Do you want to before we**  **4 go there, though, as I promised, I want to**  **5 provide an opportunity to for anybody that**  **6 wishes to to make an opening statement,**  **7 opening remarks, here at the outset. Yes,**  **8 Chuck.**  **9 MR. POWERS: Yes. I want to say**  **10 that I was actually pretty pleased with**  **11 yesterday. I'm not necessarily going to say**  **12 what the progress was, but about the type of**  **13 discussions. Some were tough, some were**  **14 pretty frank.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  **16 MR. POWERS: I think the work that**  **17 Alison and her team is trying to do and the**  **18 slide deck went a long way to get us on a path**  **19 to start bringing these to the table. Okay?**  **20 So, you know, my challenge was trying to make**  **21 sure I understood and trying to think of all**  **22 the companies that aren't here, some that are** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 much smaller, or whatever, that could be**  **2 impacted very seriously, you know, I was**  **3 trying to bring some of their views to point,**  **4 right?**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Good.**  **6 MR. POWERS: Because some of them**  **7 are calling me and saying, "Hey, what about**  **8 this? What about that?" Right? So, you**  **9 know, sometimes I may come across something**  **10 too challenging and it's not the point. I was**  **11 trying to make sure, you know, that I do**  **12 appreciate the work that I'm using Alison,**  **13 but the team, and Lucas, what you guys are**  **14 trying to do, I think it's good because I**  **15 think we're close, closer.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Good.**  **17 MR. POWERS: But I do have one**  **18 thing I'd like to bring up as a question on**  **19 one of the slides if we get a chance before we**  **20 go too far.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. I**  **22 MR. POWERS: Would you like to do** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 it now or**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: No.**  **3 MR. POWERS: Okay.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: I expect at some**  **5 point during the day we will return to the**  **6 discussion of scope and these issues that are**  **7 on the slides, the definitions, the stuff that**  **8 we covered yesterday. Okay?**  **9 Other opening remarks here?**  **10 (No response.)**  **11 So my observation is we had a good**  **12 combination of both breadth and depth**  **13 yesterday. I thought we did a decent job with**  **14 that. And we didn't have a lot of redundancy**  **15 either, which is also really, really good. So**  **16 congratulations on that.**  **17 Lucas, do you want to address**  **18 Mark's the issue that he raised about the**  **19 amount of time dedicated to the testing**  **20 overview section?**  **21 MR. ADIN: Sure. So, in**  **22 actuality, there is really kind of two parts** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 to that. The first part is discussing the**  **2 metric, how we are actually going to, in the**  **3 conceptual sense, measure efficiency for the**  **4 purposes of the standard. And that obviously**  **5 leads directly into testing -- how physically**  **6 you are going to actually get to that**  **7 measurement. So that, really, we're just**  **8 talking in conceptual terms. We're not**  **9 talking specifically which test we'd like to**  **10 use or that kind of thing. It's more, how is**  **11 the pump going to be you know, how is its**  **12 efficiency going to be accounted for, how is**  **13 the motor, the drive, and all of these**  **14 different parts, how are we really thinking**  **15 conceptually about doing this, you know, from**  **16 a practical standpoint?**  **17 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **18 Xylem. And that's pretty much what I**  **19 expected. I guess, you know, we got into it**  **20 yesterday about the difference in testing**  **21 between a circulator and the rest of the pumps**  **22 and the Hydraulic Institute's recommendation.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 So I guess, you know, we are going to get into**  **2 that same thing when we start talking about**  **3 testing without a defined scope.**  **4 So that's all I was really trying**  **5 just to probe about, saying I would rather**  **6 spend that time defining the scope so that we**  **7 could then concentrate specifically on the**  **8 testing requirement for the pumps we said are**  **9 in scope. So that's all the point I was**  **10 trying to make, so, you know**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we'll have**  **12 time to I think we'll have adequate time to**  **13 address scope today.**  **14 Gary Fernstrom.**  **15 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **16 IOUs. Mark, I think it's kind of a circular**  **17 thing. HI has made the argument that we**  **18 already have a full plate and, consequently,**  **19 we need to do circulators later. And the**  **20 complexity or ease of the testing I think is**  **21 a crucial factor in answering that question.**  **22 So I would like to see some** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 discussion about the testing opportunities and**  **2 complexity relative to circulators to inform**  **3 us about whether or not we should be trying to**  **4 do those or not.**  **5 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **6 Xylem. Gary, I fully agree with you, but I'm**  **7 just going to say I don't know if we are ready**  **8 to have that discussion. I mean, as I said**  **9 yesterday, this is a topic that's on our**  **10 committee's agenda next week at the HI annual**  **11 meeting, so we've got a lot of work to do**  **12 ourselves, so**  **13 MR. FERNSTROM: Oh, okay. But at**  **14 this meeting we are prepared to throw out some**  **15 suggestions and entertain your feedback about**  **16 how reasonable they are. Thank you.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: I appreciate what**  **18 you said, Mark. We will start with this**  **19 conceptually, and we will proceed from there**  **20 and see how far we get.**  **21 Lucas Adin.**  **22 MR. ADIN: Just very quickly, I** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 think really, at least for our purposes, the**  **2 intent is just essentially to make sure that**  **3 everyone is on the same page when it comes to**  **4 testing from a conceptual standpoint. I mean,**  **5 we understand that a lot of the folks in here**  **6 have a very good idea what "testing"**  **7 constitutes and how it would work physically**  **8 and the kinds of proposals that are in the**  **9 pipeline and that sort of thing. But not all**  **10 of us necessarily are as familiar with it,**  **11 think about it the same way.**  **12 So I think we just want to make**  **13 sure that we are all speaking the same**  **14 language, and when we refer to testing or**  **15 metrics that we have a basis for discussion**  **16 that we all understand. So that's really just**  **17 the general idea. We're not looking to come**  **18 up with specific proposals regarding testing**  **19 today.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: So I would once**  **21 again remind you please turn your cell phones**  **22 on silent mode. And if you'd try really hard** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 to say your name each time you speak I**  **2 think we did pretty good yesterday, and I'm**  **3 going to keep kind of jumping in to make sure**  **4 that we've got a very clear transcript for**  **5 this meeting.**  **6 Okay. So then let's start,**  **7 then, with the testing overview. Sarah, are**  **8 you doing slides, or is Alison?**  **9 MS. WIDDER: Alison is going to do**  **10 it.**  **11 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm going to start**  **12 with the metric.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: With the metric,**  **14 okay.**  **15 And for those of you that are**  **16 joining us via the web, we welcome you. The**  **17 Department of Energy is trying hard to make**  **18 certain these meetings are both totally**  **19 accessible and totally transparent. And if**  **20 you wish to add a comment as we are going**  **21 along today, we will try and fit you in. You**  **22 can raise your hand to tell the webmaster that** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 you want to insert a comment. We ought to be**  **2 able to hear you in the room. In the**  **3 meantime, please make sure your telephones are**  **4 on mute.**  **5 Alison.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. Alison**  **7 Williams, LBNL. So I'm going to start on**  **8 Slide 20, which is the metric overview. So we**  **9 basically wanted to start at a high level, as**  **10 Lucas said, conceptual overview of what we are**  **11 looking for in a metric, what the metric is**  **12 supposed to do, and then think about how we**  **13 might want to formulate that metric.**  **14 So, you know, in general, a metric**  **15 is supposed to be something that is**  **16 objectively measurable. It allows for**  **17 comparability across models in the**  **18 marketplace. It should focus on the energy**  **19 use or energy efficiency of the equipment**  **20 being measured. It should limit test burden,**  **21 and it possibly will inform purchasing**  **22 decisions as well.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 DOE does have some limitations on**  **2 setting a metric specific to the appliance**  **3 standards. It must describe energy efficiency**  **4 or energy use for the covered product, and it**  **5 must be a single descriptor.**  **6 Does anyone have questions on**  **7 this?**  **8 (No response.)**  **9 Okay. So this next slide is kind**  **10 of confusing. So the top ones across here are**  **11 the different pump configurations, so bare**  **12 pump, pump with motor, pump with motor and**  **13 controls. I have the pictures there just to**  **14 make sure we know what we're talking about.**  **15 And then down the left column is what the**  **16 metric might cover.**  **17 So since we are thinking about**  **18 defining a pump, the covered product pump, as**  **19 including motor and controls, we are looking**  **20 at different levels. So if the metric only**  **21 covered the pump, it describes a bare pump**  **22 well, but it does not capture motor efficiency** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 and it does not capture losses or benefits of**  **2 control. So it doesn't really capture the**  **3 whole covered potentially covered product**  **4 for these other pump configurations.**  **5 The same thing if the metric only**  **6 covers a pump with a motor. You can use it**  **7 for a bare pump if you add a standard motor to**  **8 the metric. It obviously covers the pump plus**  **9 motor, but, again, it doesn't cover the pump**  **10 plus motor control configuration in its**  **11 entirety.**  **12 So the final one is a metric that**  **13 would include all of those components. And if**  **14 you have a bare pump, again, you can use a**  **15 standard motor, and then potentially you can**  **16 include some sort of standardized controls in**  **17 there if necessary. And so a metric that**  **18 covers all of these things potentially works**  **19 for all configurations of the pump.**  **20 And so just to sort of summarize**  **21 this, you know, if the yep?**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **2 Cappellino. Could you go back to the previous**  **3 slide there? So just to clarify, yesterday we**  **4 defined "pump" as more the broad of**  **5 everything, right? So shouldn't the places**  **6 where you say "pump" there, shouldn't those**  **7 all say "bare pump"?**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. You are**  **9 correct.**  **10 MR. CAPPELLINO: So it's bare pump**  **11 plus motor, bare pump plus motor, is it and**  **12 is it the same thing for the left hand column**  **13 there? Because I'm still trying to wrap my**  **14 head around**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: No, you're right.**  **16 MR. CAPPELLINO: the whole**  **17 concept of pump versus bare pump and trying to**  **18 get some**  **19 MS. WILLIAMS: You're correct.**  **20 MR. CAPPELLINO: All right. Thank**  **21 you.**  **22 MR. POWERS: And a question I have** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 is based on**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **3 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers,**  **4 Flowserve. Based on how a customer buys the**  **5 equipment, we may have nothing to do with the**  **6 motor and the drive. Many cases.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **8 MR. POWERS: So when you write the**  **9 standard, it's going to be up to whoever buys**  **10 the pump guy may only ship a bare pump.**  **11 Then, somebody else has to be concerned about**  **12 the overall standards.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: All right. So,**  **15 again, just to summarize, if we define pumps,**  **16 the covered product, as including bare pump,**  **17 motor, and controls, the metric of its**  **18 efficiency or energy use should in some way**  **19 comprise the efficiency or energy use of all**  **20 the components the bare pump, the motor,**  **21 and the controls.**  **22 So this is just on a conceptual** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 level, we're thinking that maybe, you know,**  **2 that would be a good thing to go for.**  **3 Okay. So this is just an example**  **4 of if we did do some sort of metric. I'm**  **5 going to go through each of the pump**  **6 configurations. So this is for bare pumps.**  **7 You could potentially test the pump itself**  **8 using whatever test method we decide upon to**  **9 collect the pump performance data, similar to,**  **10 you know, how it's collected now, sweeping the**  **11 pump curve.**  **12 And then we could assume some sort**  **13 of standardized motor for that, such as the**  **14 federal minimum efficiency motor. So you**  **15 would just be testing your bare pump, and**  **16 then, you know, multiplying it or whatever by**  **17 the federal minimum efficiency for the**  **18 appropriately sized motor for that pump, and**  **19 that would give you a rating for that metric.**  **20 MR. HUBER: Some of our group want**  **21 to make sure that everyone in here understands**  **22 that in some markets we do not test every** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 pump. In some markets we do.**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: So, to clarify, you**  **3 don't have to test every pump. You would have**  **4 to test the model.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Al Huber.**  **6 Keep going, Al.**  **7 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber at**  **8 Patterson. Yes. We test we would test the**  **9 model originally thoroughly throughout, all**  **10 its trims and curves, so that we could develop**  **11 impeller diameters, and so forth, and tables.**  **12 So, but we don't unless the customer**  **13 requests it and they do occasionally but**  **14 unless they request it, we do not test every**  **15 model we every pump that we ship.**  **16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Agreed. And**  **17 so I think this would you know, you could**  **18 take your well, as long as you had the pump**  **19 tested according to the DOE test procedure,**  **20 right, the model, then you can take the data**  **21 for that model and combine it with motor data.**  **22 So this in no way implies that you would have** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 to test every unit that goes out your door.**  **2 You just take the data for the whole model**  **3 that you've compiled.**  **4 MR. POWERS: And I think what Al**  **5 is saying**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, get that**  **7 microphone closer to you, please.**  **8 MR. POWERS: Yes. What Al is**  **9 saying is fine. I agree with what he's**  **10 saying, but we have to be clear on how you are**  **11 going to approach this, because if a customer**  **12 writes a spec and just says "motor" and says**  **13 nothing else, or he says "DOE Standard X," you**  **14 know, we are going to be subject to whatever**  **15 that spec says. So**  **16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So let me**  **17 move let me just move on then. I think**  **18 that this was just supposed to be for bare**  **19 pump. So the next slide is for pump plus**  **20 motor. So if you were actually supplying both**  **21 the pump and the motor to the customer, some**  **22 potential options are that you could, again,** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 just take your pump data and combine it with**  **2 the manufacturer motor efficiency data that**  **3 you're pairing with that pump, whatever is**  **4 published for that, and create your metric, or**  **5 you could potentially do a wire to water test**  **6 of the motor/pump combination, if you wanted**  **7 to, realizing that if you had to test all of**  **8 your models and motor pairs that would be a**  **9 lot of test burden.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.**  **11 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **12 Xylem. That's exactly the point I wanted to**  **13 make, Alison, and just and that was I**  **14 was the one whispering to Al saying, "Do you**  **15 think we should clarify what we do?" Because,**  **16 you know, there certainly are requirements**  **17 when we build a pump to qualify it, to have**  **18 published data, but then what we do afterwards**  **19 varies all over the place.**  **20 And, you know, it's rare for any**  **21 of us I think except fire, which we aren't**  **22 talking about, that we have to do certified** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 performance testing.**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. And so**  **3 MR. HANDZEL: And it varies in all**  **4 of our business. Some of us do it more than**  **5 others, but it's still it depends if the**  **6 customer wants it done.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So that's why**  **8 we put Option A up there as sort of a**  **9 calculation option, so you would, again, just**  **10 have that one set of model data, and you could**  **11 combine it with various different manufacturer**  **12 efficiencies, depending on what motor you're**  **13 pairing with. So the burden would be**  **14 potentially a calculation burden.**  **15 MR. POWERS: Clarification. This**  **16 is Chuck Powers. You know, for a given pump,**  **17 you could have hundreds of different motor**  **18 values. A lot of times they you know, just**  **19 so we're clear, in order to test the unit**  **20 accurately, you have to get what's called a**  **21 calibrated motor efficiency curve load for a**  **22 factor , which is probably part of the** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 standard, right?**  **2 If you're just buying a motor to**  **3 ship and the test does not require there's a**  **4 witness, they will give you basic nominal**  **5 numbers. You don't know what that actual**  **6 motor you're shipping out the door actually**  **7 has.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah Widder.**  **9 MS. WIDDER: Right. So I just**  **10 want to clear up some of the concern that I**  **11 hear on the manufacturer side, which is**  **12 definitely warranted, because there are a lot**  **13 of pump and motor combinations, and that's the**  **14 case in actually a lot of equipment categories**  **15 that DOE covers. HVAC equipment is another**  **16 example where there is an air handler and a**  **17 condensing unit that get matched in all sorts**  **18 of different ways.**  **19 And so that's what so the first**  **20 thing that Alison said that I want to**  **21 reiterate and just be clear about is that you**  **22 only have to certify the model or the line one** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 time. One time. And then you can sell that**  **2 same basic model**  **3 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck Powers.**  **4 When you say the line, I'm talking pump only.**  **5 We're not talking that motor and all the**  **6 14,000 different motor options, stuff like**  **7 that. A pump with whatever motor you want us**  **8 to use.**  **9 MS. WIDDER: If you're well,**  **10 this is getting in the weeds, but if you are**  **11 going to sell only the pump and not package it**  **12 with any motors, then, yes, what you said is**  **13 just true. Based on what the slides are**  **14 presenting now we can have that**  **15 conversation, so nothing has been decided.**  **16 But if you were to sell it with 100 different**  **17 kinds of motors, then you would have the pump**  **18 performance. You only tested it one time.**  **19 You have pump efficiency based on HI 40.6, and**  **20 then you have motor nameplate data.**  **21 And, yes, the manufacturers don't**  **22 know how efficient that is, but it or how** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 accurate that is, but it's motor nameplate**  **2 data and you would just combine them,**  **3 calculate them, and come up with the rating.**  **4 And that's Option A via a calculation for the**  **5 extended product. You could also test it if**  **6 you had wanted to verify.**  **7 Yes?**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **9 MR. HUBER: You have a choice**  **10 here, and I think we need to be careful with**  **11 this, because if you just let people do**  **12 calculations then you could get into all kind**  **13 of problems.**  **14 So one of the things that I think**  **15 we need to look at, DOE already regulates**  **16 motors, correct? And efficiency of motors.**  **17 So they have to meet those efficiencies,**  **18 correct?**  **19 So if we're using those motors,**  **20 and Lot 11 uses those types of motors I think**  **21 I don't know of any that aren't regulated in**  **22 Lot 11, is that correct? I wouldn't they** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 are all**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: Submersible.**  **3 MR. HUBER: I can't think of a**  **4 problem with that. One of the things that you**  **5 will find is that motor efficiency varies, as**  **6 you know, with load. And we're going to be**  **7 testing this at BEP at full diameter, correct?**  **8 Okay?**  **9 MS. WIDDER: That has not been**  **10 determined yet.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: That's one thing**  **12 that is being**  **13 MR. HUBER: You're going to have**  **14 to.**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: At a minimum.**  **16 MS. WIDDER: At a minimum, you**  **17 need to determine a full load efficiency, yes.**  **18 MR. HUBER: Well, full load of**  **19 what? See, that's the problem here. Let's be**  **20 careful. I may have I may require a**  **21 certain efficiency. My pump may require a**  **22 certain horsepower at BEP, and I maybe can use** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 a 200 horsepower on the job and get it out the**  **2 door.**  **3 The next competitor may have to**  **4 use, because his curve is a little different**  **5 shape or because it runs out further, or**  **6 something else, he may end up with a 250**  **7 horsepower motor.**  **8 Now, when you combine that motor,**  **9 now you're running one at BEP at three quarter**  **10 or half or something else, and then you're**  **11 running and efficiencies are different.**  **12 MS. WIDDER: That's true, and**  **13 that's something that we have considered and**  **14 will have to consider as a committee, that the**  **15 full load efficiency of the motor doesn't**  **16 necessarily that rating point doesn't**  **17 correspond to the BEP of the pump that it's**  **18 paired with exactly.**  **19 And so the question before the**  **20 committee is, how comfortable do we feel**  **21 applying the efficiency at the full load**  **22 rating of the motor to a different rating** 

### Page 30

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 point, acknowledging that it might be a few**  **2 percent off.**  **3 Typical motor curves don't change**  **4 efficiency with load over a small range**  **5 significantly.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?**  **7 MR. POWERS: I have a question.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin first.**  **9 MR. ADIN: I just want to clarify**  **10 something generally. I understand exactly the**  **11 point you're getting at, Al, and it**  **12 ideally, we want I mean, really, this is**  **13 getting to a question of the testing method,**  **14 right? Because that's where all of this will**  **15 be spelled out, exactly how you obtain these**  **16 values and how you apply them to a given pump.**  **17 And ideally we want the metric,**  **18 the number that is obtained from this, to be**  **19 as representative as possible of what the pump**  **20 is actually going to do. You want to be able**  **21 to represent those things and have the numbers**  **22 have as much meaning as possible.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 However, that also, clearly, has**  **2 to be balanced with the amount of burden that**  **3 is required to get them. And so I think what**  **4 we're trying to work towards in suggesting**  **5 something more along the lines of a calculated**  **6 value is recognizing the significant amount of**  **7 burden that would be imposed by trying to get**  **8 as close as possible to the true value,**  **9 because that would require potentially a lot**  **10 more physical testing and a lot obtaining**  **11 a lot more data that is not necessarily**  **12 readily obtainable.**  **13 That is our impression, anyway. I**  **14 mean, correct us if we're wrong about that.**  **15 But I think we are trying to balance all of**  **16 these factors, and that's the kind of general**  **17 concept that seemed potentially most**  **18 appropriate in this case.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **20 MR. POWERS: And I have a concern**  **21 of what you're thinking, okay? Just so I can**  **22 help. If you had a constant speed unit,** 

### Page 32

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 right? Now, let's just take I have to get**  **2 to the board to draw it, but to try to**  **3 explain it. You have a BEP on the pump, and**  **4 it's at a given point. That's max wheel.**  **5 We're altering a max wheel, BEP.**  **6 The hydraulics that come out from**  **7 the customer says, "It's not at BEP; he's a**  **8 little bit to the left." Right? Now, he's a**  **9 little bit to the left, he's down. All right?**  **10 Okay. So now you're not at BEP, you're not**  **11 going to be at that maximum efficiency, you're**  **12 going to be something else.**  **13 So we can calculate that on the**  **14 pump, no problem. If we could do a test, if**  **15 it was feasible and all the work done, maybe**  **16 we could prove that one value at that lower**  **17 point.**  **18 Now, bear with me. So now you go**  **19 to buy a motor. To your point, there is a**  **20 range on the motor at constant speed that it**  **21 doesn't fluctuate too much, but different**  **22 motor manufacturers, if it's totally enclosed** 

### Page 33

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 motor, air cooled, drip proof, all these**  **2 different factors, that will vary, and the**  **3 load, right?**  **4 Now, when you start to get off its**  **5 comfort zone, it drops dramatically. Okay?**  **6 Now, what I was getting to, if it's a 200**  **7 horse, and it just so happens the customer**  **8 picked BEP condition at 200 horse, everybody**  **9 is going to be happy. It's going to come out**  **10 in your mathematical little thing and you're**  **11 all going to run around, everybody is going to**  **12 shake hands, and everybody is going to be**  **13 happy. Okay? But if it's off that condition,**  **14 the numbers are going to be totally different.**  **15 So the pump that we are qualifying**  **16 will meet the standard you are trying to**  **17 impose. No problem. We do the testing of**  **18 those. But what is going to happen in the**  **19 field may be different. Now you go to VFD.**  **20 So I'm talking constant speed pump and motor.**  **21 Now you throw a control, VFD. The**  **22 VFD drop in speed is not purely linear, right?** 

### Page 34

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 It doesn't follow the curve straight down the**  **2 curve as you might think. It starts to skew**  **3 it because efficiencies go one way. It**  **4 depends on the type of specific speed and lot**  **5 of that some are bullseyes. They actually**  **6 get better when you slow them down or trim**  **7 them or do things, right? So now you add**  **8 another variable.**  **9 Now, on the motor side, things**  **10 change because a VFD adequate motor,**  **11 especially in the bigger horsepowers, you have**  **12 to do certain things for heat buildup when you**  **13 slow them down, and other factors. The motors**  **14 are not standard motors, okay, when they're**  **15 coupled with VFDs.**  **16 The last thing is I do not believe**  **17 circulator motors or submersible motors are in**  **18 the DOE standard yet, motor standard.**  **19 MS. WIDDER: That's correct.**  **20 MR. POWERS: I don't believe. I**  **21 could be wrong. So you may have conventional,**  **22 horizontal, whatever, but I'm not sure if some** 

### Page 35

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 of the verticals and submersible motors are**  **2 you know if they end up being that one**  **3 grouping, and the circulators I mean, these**  **4 guys would have to speak up on**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: So there are a**  **6 couple of different themes here I would just**  **7 wish to note. We're getting it about this**  **8 issue of complexity and the potential**  **9 difficulty of matching, pairing, and the**  **10 testing that goes with it.**  **11 But DOE is also saying that, gee,**  **12 they're thinking about the testing burden here**  **13 and trying to figure out some way that a**  **14 calculation can reduce that burden. So we**  **15 need to be thinking productively about how**  **16 something like that might happen I think.**  **17 Charlie.**  **18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **19 Cappellino, ITT. We scratched at this a**  **20 little bit yesterday, the concept of**  **21 integrated design versus a modular design.**  **22 And I think we need to think about that a** 

### Page 36

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 little bit as we move forward with this. And**  **2 then on top of that there is the extended**  **3 product concept where you take modularity and**  **4 use it to build an extended product.**  **5 And those are really three**  **6 different kinds of scenarios that I think we**  **7 need to consider and think through as we go**  **8 through the testing standard. So in the first**  **9 case of an integrated design, like a**  **10 circulator, you know, frankly, Gary's**  **11 suggestion of wire to water is a more**  **12 practical solution, because that is really**  **13 more the only practical way to measure the**  **14 efficiency of the unit, because it is an**  **15 integrated design.**  **16 In the modular design, in our**  **17 business and Chuck's business and some of**  **18 these other guys' businesses, the modular**  **19 approach where traditionally we optimize the**  **20 performance of the bare pump, we spent a lot**  **21 of time trying to increase the efficiency of**  **22 that design and it's very competitive in the** 

### Page 37

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 marketplace.**  **2 And to Al's point, if you pair up**  **3 a motor and I said this yesterday. It**  **4 probably wasn't real clear, but when the**  **5 customer has a choice, when they can choose**  **6 the pump somewhat independently from the**  **7 motor, and you can put a premium efficiency**  **8 motor or whatever kind of efficiency motor on**  **9 there, those decisions can be independent.**  **10 I think the testing should be**  **11 somewhat independent as well, because I think**  **12 if you start wrapping the motor efficiency in**  **13 with the pump efficiency and try and calculate**  **14 it, frankly, I think it is going to cause more**  **15 confusion in terms of the decision making and**  **16 the actual efficiencies of the system, and**  **17 it's going to confuse the objective, which is,**  **18 you know, objectively measurable. I think**  **19 you're going to end up with a problem.**  **20 Then, the third piece is our**  **21 extended product concept. I mean, HI has done**  **22 a lot of time spent a lot of time talking** 

### Page 38

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 about extended product, and we think there is**  **2 a lot of energy savings there. I think that's**  **3 a separate discussion that we want to have and**  **4 talk about some of the things that we've come**  **5 up with as far as trying to measure that and**  **6 advance that concept.**  **7 So I'm just trying to frame that**  **8 up because it's there are a lot of**  **9 different concepts, and trying to wrap them**  **10 all together is going to be challenging.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw both Louis**  **12 and Gary.**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I clarify**  **14 something real quick?**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, clarify.**  **16 Alison, please.**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: So on the extended**  **18 product thing being a different discussion, so**  **19 I just want to repeat again that DOE has to**  **20 use a single metric. We can ask further**  **21 questions of GC if necessary, but so we're**  **22 just trying to bring, sort of, a way that we** 

### Page 39

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 could develop a single metric that would work**  **2 for extended products and would work for bare**  **3 pumps and could show the benefits of extended**  **4 products. And we're certainly open to any**  **5 other ideas on that.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: So just follow on,**  **7 Meg.**  **8 MS. WALTNER: Is it your**  **9 interpretation that you have to use a single**  **10 metric for different product classes, or could**  **11 you use a different metric for different**  **12 product classes if each class only had one**  **13 metric?**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy Kohl.**  **15 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl, DOE**  **16 GC. I know this came up last time, and Steve**  **17 Rosenstock had given some purported examples**  **18 of where we've used different metrics for**  **19 different product classes, and they were**  **20 different products that he just referred to.**  **21 So we have not, in the past, used**  **22 different metrics for different product** 

### Page 40

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 classes in the same product type. And I**  **2 guess, I mean, we lawyers have to think about**  **3 things. So that's something that we can still**  **4 think about, but we have not historically done**  **5 that, no.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: These two, one of**  **7 Louis or Gary. Gary, go ahead.**  **8 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Charlie**  **9 well, first of all, Gary, California IOUs. I**  **10 totally agree with you, if the product is sold**  **11 as an integral product like a circulator, the**  **12 smaller ones or maybe the midsize ones, you**  **13 know, one, two, three horsepower, it makes**  **14 sense to do wire to water and consider it all**  **15 as an integrated product.**  **16 But if there is going to be**  **17 variability in the motor associated with the**  **18 pump, I don't see how you can do anything but**  **19 describe the pump performance independent of**  **20 the motor. You can't extend it through a**  **21 motor for which you may not exactly know the**  **22 characteristics.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al? Al Huber.**  **2 MR. HUBER: Wire to water testing**  **3 is done every day here in the United States in**  **4 all of our labs. In fact, I've got a 2,500**  **5 horsepower unit with a VFD on my test stand**  **6 today. It is if we are practical and**  **7 smart, I would say the variability between the**  **8 manufacturers of these DOE rated motors,**  **9 certified motors, is probably fairly small.**  **10 If we can figure out what that is,**  **11 then we could just give ourselves an allowance**  **12 -- I mean, you're going to have to do**  **13 something. If you give yourself an allowance**  **14 for that variability, then you don't have to**  **15 test everybody's motor with your pump; just**  **16 test one with your pump and you'll have a**  **17 pretty good idea. I'm not talking about**  **18 circulators, Gary.**  **19 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes.**  **20 MR. HUBER: Then you'll have a**  **21 pretty good idea and you can come up with a**  **22 metric for that.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.**  **2 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary.**  **3 I agree. That sounds like a reasonable**  **4 approach.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Some margin of**  **6 error.**  **7 MR. HUBER: I mean, if you do,**  **8 then we don't have to go and because we**  **9 sell maybe, for instance, four or five**  **10 different motor manufacturers for on our**  **11 HVAC line, for instance. So if we test one**  **12 and all of them are standard, let's say,**  **13 premium efficient motors, then they will all**  **14 be pretty close to the same when we test.**  **15 They should be.**  **16 And we just know that and we are**  **17 given a margin for that, so no matter whose we**  **18 test, as long as it's that kind of motor, then**  **19 we won't have an issue.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah, do you want**  **21 to**  **22 MR. HUBER: As long as you are** 

### Page 43

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 willing to give us that, I don't think it**  **2 won't be an undue burden at that point.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to add**  **4 anything, Sarah, or Lucas?**  **5 MR. ADIN: I think that's, in the**  **6 most basic Lucas Adin, DOE. I think that's**  **7 in the basic sense, what we're talking about**  **8 is we're talking about using a standardized**  **9 value to represent that motor in the**  **10 efficiency metric. So you could make**  **11 comparisons across different pumps.**  **12 MR. HUBER: But I want to be clear**  **13 here, Lucas. I'm talking about actually doing**  **14 a wire to water test with that motor, with a**  **15 motor.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?**  **17 MR. HUBER: It doesn't matter**  **18 whose. If they're all going to be the same**  **19 and you give us an allowance for the rest of**  **20 them, then it doesn't matter whose we use. If**  **21 you don't do that, then there is you have**  **22 not necessarily picked the best product out** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 there in the field because everybody's curve**  **2 shapes are somewhat different. And whatever**  **3 motor you're using, and whether the motor is**  **4 going to run at BEP, could be different. And**  **5 I think we all know that.**  **6 MR. POWERS: I'd like to add**  **7 something here, just so I'm clear.**  **8 And, Gary, I'd appreciate it if**  **9 you'd keep the circulators over here, because**  **10 I think they're integral to the pump and**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is Chuck**  **12 speaking. Keep going, Chuck.**  **13 MR. POWERS: So let me just try to**  **14 just back up at a higher level. The goal here**  **15 is to improve efficiency, whatever, whether**  **16 it's motors, fans, pumps, and the like. So I**  **17 get it, right? And it makes sense.**  **18 The next step would be to have**  **19 some kind of a logical process that we all**  **20 could use, right? We are getting through the**  **21 block and tackle of the products and the**  **22 details, and that's all fun, but, you know,** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 we're trying to get a process of it, right? 2 So the thinking would be and**  **3 this is just from my experience of 38 years 4 I can take an individual product, any one of**  **5 those, we had never made it the same. 6 Thousands upon thousands upon thousands. You**  **7 say, "Well, Chuck, how can that be?" 8 Well, putting aside they are the**  **9 same casing and cast iron, or Duplex, or 10 whatever that's one variable, but that**  **11 doesn't necessarily affect hydraulics in some 12 cases, although the materials can. But the**  **13 trims, they're all different. I don't think 14 now bear with me.**  **15 So my point would be and I 16 think I'm trying to get to where Al is going**  **17 if we come up we'll start with the pump. 18 If we come up with the pump type that we have**  **19 agreed on, whatever that is, okay, at BEP, at 20 max wheel, we have to achieve X. Right? So**  **21 bear with me. 22 You get a stamp or something that** 

### Page 46

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 says that product is certified at max wheel at**  **2 BEP. So now when the spec comes in, no matter**  **3 where that customer has it on, you know,**  **4 whether his specs or anybody else, it could be**  **5 anywhere they may want to run the pump at**  **6 10 percent of BEP. All I'm certifying is that**  **7 pump at BEP, at max wheel, meets your**  **8 standard. Where that is selected of the**  **9 thousands and thousands that will ship every**  **10 year, who cares, right?**  **11 Now, the reason that's important**  **12 is I want to get away from the specific every**  **13 pump that goes out the door, quality**  **14 efficiency, where it's going to be. I'm not**  **15 going to care. Oh, we're going to have a**  **16 problem here at this meeting.**  **17 What I'm saying is I'm willing to**  **18 commit to a product. We end up on the list at**  **19 a certain standard, a max wheel, a BEP, right?**  **20 And then wherever it shows after that, it is**  **21 going to be there may be a few cases of**  **22 better efficiency because of the way curves** 

### Page 47

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 are shaped, and, you know, off max wheel could**  **2 get better, but it doesn't matter. It's what**  **3 that standard is.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?**  **5 MR. POWERS: Now, so then on the**  **6 motor, if you have a motor you've certified,**  **7 or, you know, you've qualified and I don't**  **8 know the details to it of a given**  **9 horsepower at a certain speed at its you**  **10 know, like she was saying, the peak, whatever,**  **11 but if it's off that and you calculate the two**  **12 and you even get it calibrated, it's not going**  **13 to meet your standard because it's not at BEP**  **14 and it's not at those conditions.**  **15 But both companies come in and**  **16 say, "This product has been certified by DOE.**  **17 Here is the stamp. And this product, the**  **18 motor has been certified by DOE and here is**  **19 the stamp." Where the customer picks it and**  **20 what he wants to do with it, you know, that's**  **21 going to be different.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.** 

### Page 48

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. ADIN: All right. So maybe we**  **2 we might be kind of talking past each other**  **3 on a couple of these things. But going back**  **4 to the pump part of it, you know,**  **5 certification at full impeller BEP, a**  **6 standardized rating condition, I mean, that's**  **7 exactly what we're talking about.**  **8 I don't see how you could do it**  **9 any other way. You can't make any assumptions**  **10 about how the customer is actually going to**  **11 use it, any of that. You're choosing**  **12 standardized rating conditions. That's part**  **13 of the test procedure. It's the only way that**  **14 pumps can be compared to one another. Fine.**  **15 I don't think there is any question about that**  **16 at all.**  **17 MR. POWERS: And, Lucas, the**  **18 reason I say that**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **20 MR. POWERS: if this was the**  **21 bar, and we all in this room agree on certain**  **22 products, and we're going to raise the bar,** 

### Page 49

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 great. So anywhere you choose off of that bar**  **2 it's going to be better, because the old bar**  **3 was here, so all the efficiencies are going to**  **4 be lower. The new bar is here. Generally**  **5 speaking, you could say they're all going to**  **6 be better also, right?**  **7 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So I think I**  **8 am going to try to address say something**  **9 that addresses your concern**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah.**  **11 MS. WIDDER: I'm hoping. This**  **12 is Sarah. So Lucas just clarified that we are**  **13 currently, in this construct that we have**  **14 presented, just thinking about one rating**  **15 condition for one model of pump, BEP, full**  **16 impeller diameter, you certify the pump**  **17 performance, you measure the pump performance.**  **18 What we're discussing here is what**  **19 you do with that. If you just certify pump**  **20 performance and we're done, or we consider the**  **21 efficiency benefits or, you know, losses**  **22 associated with other things that might be** 

### Page 50

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 paired with the motor, and the benefit of 2 doing that, I'm going to go back to something**  **3 you said. You said that our purpose is to 4 increase efficiency, and I'm going to change**  **5 it. I think our purpose here is to save 6 energy, which is a little bit different than**  **7 improving efficiency, which is why DOE wants 8 to consider those you know, that extended**  **9 product, at least have a discussion about how 10 that construct might work.**  **11 The other thing I wanted to say, 12 and just hopefully this is clear, yes, you'll**  **13 certify a pump at BEP, full impeller. A 14 customer is going to buy it at any number of**  **15 trims, run it any number of ways, lots of 16 differences. I'm with you there. I'm with**  **17 you there. 18 Okay. You keep saying let me**  **19 finish. Let me finish. Okay? We don't care 20 as much as you don't care. So, yes, that's**  **21 the case. But customers buy all sorts of 22 things all the time. You would take the pump** 

### Page 51

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 in this construct, you would take the pump**  **2 performance at full impeller BEP, pair it with**  **3 a motor that you would select if a customer**  **4 were to buy it at BEP full impeller. That**  **5 motor that is paired at that rating point, the**  **6 efficiency of that motor would be included in**  **7 the metric. And if a customer buys the pump**  **8 at a trim diameter, you would pair it with a**  **9 different motor, but that's okay. We're not**  **10 concerned with that here.**  **11 It doesn't matter that you have a**  **12 different motor running at a different place**  **13 for every customer out there, you want the**  **14 motor for the pump at BEP. That's the rating**  **15 point.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **17 MR. ADIN: I just want to make**  **18 sure I understand.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Further**  **20 clarification, Lucas Adin.**  **21 MR. ADIN: One of the concerns**  **22 that was expressed previously about different** 

### Page 52

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 motor pairings, and whatnot, if we make**  **2 assumptions about the motor that's paired for**  **3 the purposes of certifying the pump, so you**  **4 have the standard, you have this rating that**  **5 you would use based on this concept that we're**  **6 talking about that uses an assumed value for**  **7 the motor, and the concern is that if that**  **8 pump were paired with a different motor, or**  **9 even if it was just off whatever that**  **10 assumption is and you did a wire to water**  **11 test, then that number is different and you**  **12 couldn't is that what we're talking about,**  **13 the difference between the result of a wire to**  **14 water test and the assumed value, or just a**  **15 different motor being different than that**  **16 assumed value for that pump?**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to stay on**  **18 this**  **19 MR. ADIN: I want to understand**  **20 what we're talking about here.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, can you address**  **22 this?** 

### Page 53

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. HUBER: If you use a**  **2 calculation, you're going to have to pick on**  **3 the motor which calculation what efficiency**  **4 you are going to use. So you would**  **5 MR. ADIN: Can't do wire to water**  **6 without the motor efficiency.**  **7 MR. HUBER: Without a motor**  **8 efficiency. But I can tell you, in the**  **9 marketplace, when someone requires wire to**  **10 water, at least in the business that we're in**  **11 municipal and otherwise you end up doing**  **12 a wire to water test.**  **13 MR. ADIN: Of the actual**  **14 MR. HUBER: Of the actual piece of**  **15 equipment, the motor, the pump.**  **16 MR. ADIN: With the impeller trim**  **17 18**  **MR. HUBER: With the impeller 19**  **trim, but that's all right. We have already 20**  **decided we are going to I don't want to get 21**  **confused here. We have already decided that 22**  **we were using full diameter. That's okay.**

### Page 54

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 All I'm saying is we could do the same thing**  **2 with motors, and you test one motor of a DOE**  **3 type. I'm using the word "type." I don't**  **4 know how you guys have got it categorized.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Frame.**  **6 MR. HANDZEL: But if I go buy a 20**  **7 horsepower this frame, this NEMA frame, this**  **8 whatever, premium efficient or EPAct, or**  **9 whatever it happens to be. And I test it, and**  **10 I should be able to use that for every other**  **11 motor manufacturer that I want to that the**  **12 customer wants me to provide him for that**  **13 particular type of motor, and you need to give**  **14 me whatever span of variance that is.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So, Charlie**  **16 MR. HUBER: So that way I only**  **17 have to test the model one time with one**  **18 motor, and then I'm good with everybody's**  **19 motor that makes that motor.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're**  **21 working our way toward a little bit of**  **22 clarity. Charlie, you have been patient.** 

### Page 55

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Thank you. 2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **3 Cappellino. My understanding of what the 4 proposal was is that you could test the bare**  **5 pump in any means that you selected, meaning 6 mechanical power input, basically do a bare**  **7 pump test, which is unscreened, and then you 8 would assume a motor efficiency and calculate**  **9 a combined efficiency. 10 My question is would everybody**  **11 assume the same motor efficiency to do that 12 calculation? So, for example**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, wait. Hold 14 up. So is that construct, is that what we're**  **15 talking about? 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, what**  **17 we have been thinking is that there would be 18 for the bare pump, not when you're actually**  **19 pairing a pump and motor, but if you have a 20 bare pump that you're selling, there would be**  **21 rules, right? Use the NEMA B open frame of 22 like this sizing for your pump, and you pull** 

### Page 56

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that out of, you know, the DOE tables.**  **2 MR. CAPPELLINO: You would pull a**  **3 number. You would pull a number that says**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: You would pull a**  **5 number.**  **6 MR. CAPPELLINO: 96 percent.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.**  **8 MR. CAPPELLINO: And you would use**  **9 that to factor into the calculation of**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. And so**  **11 MR. CAPPELLINO: bare pump**  **12 testing.**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.**  **14 MR. CAPPELLINO: And you could**  **15 test the bare pump in a way that complies with**  **16 the test standards.**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Truly a**  **19 calculation.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. And the**  **21 standard would have to take into account all**  **22 those different motors. So you wouldn't be** 

### Page 57

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 penalized necessarily by in this case by**  **2 different motors being used, because the**  **3 standard would have to account for the**  **4 different motors.**  **5 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie**  **6 again. So if I'm Company A, and I test my**  **7 bare pump, and I go to the DOE table and say,**  **8 "This pump can be sold with a premium**  **9 efficiency motor," which is, let's say, 96**  **10 percent, I can do that calculation, do that**  **11 once, qualify my product, and I'm done. Let's**  **12 say it passes, right?**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: This is for a bare**  **14 pump.**  **15 MR. CAPPELLINO: For a bare pump,**  **16 right.**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.**  **18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Company B comes**  **19 along and says, "I'm going to do the same**  **20 thing." I mean, they are likely to pick the**  **21 same efficiency for the motor.**  **22 MS. WILLIAMS: So we would require** 

### Page 58

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that the same efficiency be picked. There**  **2 would be rules for which motor you would**  **3 pairing it with.**  **4 MR. CAPPELLINO: So on the one**  **5 hand if there is that level of consistency,**  **6 that the motor efficiency is basically the**  **7 same efficiency from Company A to B to C, it's**  **8 a level playing field. But it also adds a**  **9 to some extent an unnecessary complexity for**  **10 that for a bare pump situation, but it does**  **11 open up the door of comparing I guess that**  **12 product configuration to a pump motor drive**  **13 configuration or something like that. Does**  **14 that**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: That is exactly**  **16 where we're heading, yes.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **18 MR. ADIN: Right. Lucas Adin.**  **19 And so, you know, obviously in that case the**  **20 only variability you're looking at is based on**  **21 the efficiency differences in the bare pump**  **22 itself.** 

### Page 59

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. CAPPELLINO: The bare pump**  **2 itself, because you've**  **3 MR. ADIN: So**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: You've specified**  **5 every other thing aside from the bare pump.**  **6 MR. ADIN: You've standardized**  **7 everything else. So if we did, you know,**  **8 efficiency standard analysis on this basis,**  **9 you would only be looking analyzing**  **10 improvements in the bare pump, the hydraulic.**  **11 MR. CAPPELLINO: So you're looking**  **12 forward here to kind of set up for extended**  **13 product approach is what**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what she**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean,**  **16 that's the goal, to get you know, if we're**  **17 18**  **MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah has another 19**  **comment. Sarah. 20**  **MS. WIDDER: I do. Just to build 21**  **on that I think that was really helpful, 22**  **Charlie so will you go to the pump plus**

### Page 60

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 motor one? So let's carry that line of**  **2 thinking where we took the rated performance**  **3 of the bare pump and times'd it by the**  **4 calculated values that you got from the DOE**  **5 test procedure, and every single person has**  **6 the exact same values.**  **7 They are either right in the CFR**  **8 or they tell you where to find them in the**  **9 CFR. Every manufacturer, DOE included, will**  **10 use the same values.**  **11 In this case, now you take the**  **12 same pump performance that you measured and**  **13 it's variable among pumps, because every pump**  **14 is different performance. Now you're pairing**  **15 it with a motor and you're selling the two**  **16 together, integrated, but that motor has a**  **17 standardized, certified full load efficiency.**  **18 If Manufacturer A of pumps and**  **19 Manufacturer B of pumps purchased the same**  **20 motor, they are using the same value. That's**  **21 Option A here. You would just look up the**  **22 motor nameplate, and then times it by the pump** 

### Page 61

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 efficiency that you measured. And everybody**  **2 gets the same value.**  **3 When DOE pulls a product, they do**  **4 the same thing, they get the same number,**  **5 theoretically.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: And they do that**  **7 calculation. They do the manufacturers**  **8 would do that calculation. They wouldn't be**  **9 testing every single pump motor combination.**  **10 MS. WIDDER: Yes. And I'm almost**  **11 done, and then Mark.**  **12 Okay. And then, to Al's point**  **13 about I only want to test pump and motor one**  **14 time, and then I'm done with all of the motors**  **15 that I could pair with this pump, that in**  **16 Option A, if you always paired with the same**  **17 efficiency motor, then, yes, if you bought**  **18 four different there's motors from four**  **19 different manufacturers, but all of them are**  **20 95 percent efficiency nameplate, there is**  **21 absolutely no difference for Option A.**  **22 For Option B, if you wanted to do** 

### Page 62

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 wire to water test, and the nameplate on all**  **2 of them was 95 percent, you also could only**  **3 test one time, and there is tolerance built**  **4 into the testing. That's just I mean,**  **5 there is tolerance built into pump testing,**  **6 too.**  **7 And so I think that what you're**  **8 saying is consistent with the way DOE the**  **9 way we are at least thinking about this setup.**  **10 And the one other thing I will say, and then**  **11 one thing and then I'm done, is if you**  **12 wanted to have a suite of motors that you**  **13 could pair with a pump, and they were all 95**  **14 percent or better, but you didn't want to take**  **15 advantage of the savings you could get from**  **16 pairing with a better motor, like let's say I**  **17 now I have a 95 percent and I have a 98**  **18 percent motor.**  **19 Now my rating just got better, but**  **20 I didn't do anything to the pump. So that's**  **21 a benefit. But if I don't want to take**  **22 advantage for that, all of those equipment can** 

### Page 63

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 be certified under the lowest efficiency.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark.**  **3 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **4 Xylem. I just want to clarify for everybody**  **5 that the Hydraulic Institute's recommendation**  **6 is that for you know, we have to establish**  **7 a baseline for pumps that we are going to have**  **8 to redesign for. Okay? And we have**  **9 recommended adopting, you know, the MEI**  **10 approach that was used in the EU.**  **11 It doesn't factor into any motor**  **12 efficiency. It is all based on pump**  **13 efficiency only. So realistically, you know,**  **14 your bare pump testing, there should be no**  **15 reference to the motor in it. It's just about**  **16 testing the pump, and what's the efficiency of**  **17 the pump at BEP, at full run or impeller,**  **18 okay? So I think we're jumping ahead again.**  **19 Also, I would just clarify that**  **20 our recommendation for extended product where**  **21 we're adding the motor and adding the drive is**  **22 to use EEI, which is along the lines of your** 

### Page 64

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 wire to water efficiency that we have been**  **2 throwing around the table.**  **3 So I just want to pull this back a**  **4 little bit, because I just think we're jumping**  **5 ahead on the test and we're not looking at how**  **6 are we going to qualify pumps, how are we**  **7 going to qualify extended product.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Al.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I respond?**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Please do. Alison.**  **11 MS. WILLIAMS: So, again, we know**  **12 that's your position, and DOE doesn't isn't**  **13 necessarily able to do that. And so we are**  **14 just trying to explore other ways that we can**  **15 do both pumps and extended products.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin, and**  **17 then**  **18 MR. ADIN: Let me just clarify.**  **19 When she says we can't do that, she is talking**  **20 about having one particular metric for what**  **21 we're talking about as an extended product and**  **22 a different one for a bare pump.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 And in some respects, I don't**  **2 think we'd want to. I mean, if you have the**  **3 same metric, then you can recognize the**  **4 benefits of using a variable speed system in**  **5 the same kind of that's our general**  **6 understanding. I mean, I**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: And, Louis, thank**  **8 you for being patient. Thank you.**  **9 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr**  **10 with NEEA. You know, what the pump guys are**  **11 experiencing, I experience, all the time, and**  **12 other DOE things where we would like air**  **13 handling equipment you have SEER ratings and**  **14 then you have EER ratings. And we always ask**  **15 for multiple metrics.**  **16 But due to how they are**  **17 constrained or legal obligations, they can**  **18 always only provide one metric. So this is**  **19 their workaround for only providing one**  **20 metric. So it's not not that your point is**  **21 not logical it is, much the same way ours**  **22 is in multiple metric discussions on other** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 equipment but this is their workaround for 2 trying to get that.**  **3 So if somehow this can be framed 4 in that way, that would be beneficial. But I**  **5 understand your misgivings. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.**  **7 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic 8 Institute. So if we go to what we've called**  **9 the EEI, which has all of them aboard, it's 10 possible I don't do anything to my pump. I**  **11 just buy a better efficiency motor. And I've 12 done nothing to improve pump efficiency; all**  **13 I've done is changed my motor. So 14 MS. WIDDER: But you're still**  **15 saving energy. 16 MR. CASE: I agree.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Sarah. 18 And Greg agrees. Now, Chuck, go ahead.**  **19 MR. CASE: Was Sarah recognized, 20 or is she allowed to interrupt also?**  **21 (Laughter.) 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah can have the** 

### Page 67

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 floor anytime she wants.**  **2 (Laughter.)**  **3 Al. Al cannot. No. Go ahead.**  **4 Go ahead. Just kidding.**  **5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **6 You know, I have some great concerns about**  **7 using motors to verify pump efficiency that**  **8 aren't certified. We all know what can happen**  **9 here.**  **10 If the motor you're using for some**  **11 reason is less efficient than the percentage**  **12 that you're you're saying we've got to use,**  **13 then my pump is going to show that it's less**  **14 efficient. That's a fact.**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: So**  **16 MR. HUBER: Yes, it will.**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: So**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, please.**  **19 MR. HUBER: It will can I**  **20 finish, please?**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. Yes,**  **22 go ahead.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. HUBER: It absolutely will.**  **2 If the efficiency I'm using in my calculation,**  **3 and the motor is less efficient, then my pump**  **4 itself, my bare pump, you've got two different**  **5 my bare pump is going to show a lower**  **6 efficiency.**  **7 Now, what she has described in A**  **8 is not is not a bare pump metric, I can**  **9 tell you.**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: This one is the**  **11 bare pump.**  **12 MR. HUBER: See, but the motor is**  **13 never we never consider the motor.**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: I understand this**  **15 is not anything**  **16 MR. HUBER: There is a reason.**  **17 There is a reason because if you if**  **18 you've got a more efficient motor and you're**  **19 not using that calculation, then it shows up**  **20 in the pump as being more efficient.**  **21 Conversely, if you you know, if you take**  **22 do you understand? That's the way it works.** 

### Page 69

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 I've seen it work on my testing. I'm telling**  **2 you, we test this stuff every day.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, go ahead.**  **4 MR. HUBER: I know what I'm**  **5 talking about.**  **6 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **7 Cappellino. Al, you're assuming for a wire to**  **8 water type of test.**  **9 MR. HUBER: No. I'm talking about**  **10 a bare what she's saying what she's**  **11 saying, Charlie what she's saying is they**  **12 are going to give you a motor efficiency to**  **13 use for your bare pump test.**  **14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes.**  **15 MR. HUBER: And if you happen to**  **16 have a motor that's less efficient and you're**  **17 testing how can you shake your head no? Do**  **18 you know what every motor I get is exactly the**  **19 same efficiency?**  **20 MR. CAPPELLINO: Can I explain?**  **21 MS. WIDDER: Yes. I think Charlie**  **22 should try.** 

### Page 70

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes. So I think**  **2 what they're saying, Al, is you can test the**  **3 pump independently of the motor. Okay? Take**  **4 the motor completely out of the picture during**  **5 your test setup, put in a torque bar or**  **6 something else, okay?**  **7 You test the motor excuse me,**  **8 test the pump independently, and then all**  **9 you're doing is looking up on a table and**  **10 saying, "Okay. I'm going to use a premium**  **11 efficiency motor to qualify this pump" and**  **12 plug that into the equation. And if that**  **13 premium efficiency motor is 95 percent instead**  **14 of 94 percent, you're going to get a better**  **15 overall efficiency**  **16 MR. HUBER: I agree with you,**  **17 Charlie.**  **18 MR. CAPPELLINO: package.**  **19 MR. HUBER: I agree with you,**  **20 Charlie.**  **21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay.**  **22 MR. HUBER: But the problem is** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that's not what she said. She said, "We're**  **2 going to give you an efficiency to use when**  **3 you test your bare pump with a motor."**  **4 MS. WIDDER: So let me clarify.**  **5 MR. HUBER: That's what she said.**  **6 MS. WIDDER: There's two I may**  **7 have maybe I said something that was**  **8 confusing. What Charlie said was exactly**  **9 correct.**  **10 MR. HUBER: Okay. I'm fine with**  **11 that.**  **12 MS. WIDDER: Okay.**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: I think maybe we're**  **14 confusing the bare pump testing with the pump**  **15 plus motor testing. So we just want to have**  **16 those conversations be distinct I think.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: So before we move**  **18 on, then, Chuck, please.**  **19 MR. POWERS: Okay. So in the real**  **20 world, pump guys, motor guys let me just**  **21 try to back up here a little bit. The**  **22 decisions we are going to make at the period** 

### Page 72

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 here, the end of this time frame, whatever, if**  **2 we're allowed to stick with it, is going to**  **3 impact 3 to 500,000 jobs. You say, "How can**  **4 that be?"**  **5 If you take Al's group, this**  **6 guy's, mine, others, our companies add up to**  **7 X. These are just domestic players. In order**  **8 to improve efficiency, there is all kinds of**  **9 things. One way is solid modeling, smoothness**  **10 of the material, all kinds of stuff. What**  **11 does that impact? Foundries.**  **12 If we don't get this right, it's**  **13 not just the pump guys, it's the foundries,**  **14 it's the machine shops. You start adding**  **15 those numbers up, we're talking lots and lots**  **16 of people.**  **17 Now, why do I bring that up?**  **18 We're going to need to do it. Right? Big**  **19 issues. But more importantly is if the DO C,**  **20 Commerce Department, pressures us and we go**  **21 to meetings all the time "We need you to**  **22 ship more export," what I try to get back in** 

### Page 73

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 my head is, if for a given unit on that board**  **2 we set up the 200 horse, okay, NEMA pretty**  **3 simple they don't make a 198, they don't**  **4 make a 172, they make a 200, 175, 150, and**  **5 I've been around this so long I forget.**  **6 So, bear with me, if you were to**  **7 list 200, Chuck, down to one horsepower,**  **8 whatever the heck it is and, again, keeping**  **9 the circulators out for a second, right? And**  **10 say the standard we have in agreement with**  **11 these motor guys is for that 200 it's X, for**  **12 175 it's Y, you know, whatever those**  **13 efficiencies are, just like Sarah was trying**  **14 to explain. No problem, right?**  **15 And if they have a stamp that**  **16 says, "We happened to buy that motor" because**  **17 the customer's spec wrote it that way, we're**  **18 not going to do anything differently. We're**  **19 going to say, you know, this is the efficiency**  **20 they're saying, and somebody can combine the**  **21 two and it adds up.**  **22 What I'm worried about is we're** 

### Page 74

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 going to compete offshore. If we're going to**  **2 compete domestically, it isn't all just about**  **3 efficiency, right? There's price, there's low**  **4 cost sourcing. Which motor is made in the**  **5 States anymore? Have you gone to all 500**  **6 motor manufacturers and got the standards set**  **7 up?**  **8 Because if we're going to buy to**  **9 have, you know, low cost sourcing, all of**  **10 these other things that are done that we have**  **11 to do every day to compete and then my**  **12 other concern is, are we going to put a**  **13 standard here in the States that you want us**  **14 to build stuff here in the States and ship**  **15 offshore to Venezuela, to Asia, which we all**  **16 do, right? That is going to say to us now,**  **17 "Oh, you have to add all of this extra money**  **18 to do these things," which is a good thing,**  **19 don't get me wrong, but all of these other**  **20 factors the guy over in Asia says, "I don't**  **21 care about this motor thing. I'll just buy**  **22 this motor." Right? And then we're non** 

### Page 75

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 competitive.**  **2 So there's two pieces here. One**  **3 is in my head I'm saying for a given diameter**  **4 for BEP these different pump models have to**  **5 meet X, you know, whatever that is for that**  **6 process that we're going to define, the MEI,**  **7 whatever.**  **8 And if there's motors out there,**  **9 you're going to define what those have to be,**  **10 not us, right? And then the combined unit,**  **11 you know, by definition could end up being**  **12 what we all want to achieve. No argument.**  **13 But not everybody buys VFDs, right? They are**  **14 very expensive. We all know that. And, you**  **15 know, there's factors involved, right?**  **16 Now, we all agree that it's**  **17 getting better, but it isn't like it used to**  **18 be, right?**  **19 So I just worry there is a factor**  **20 here, what are we going to impact, and what**  **21 could be affected by this significantly?**  **22 And then, the last thing I'll say,** 

### Page 76

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 as Sarah brought up, the package it was**  **2 said in the EU standard, it was stated many**  **3 times the package efficiency no doubt is**  **4 the best option. But you can you know,**  **5 since mezuzah, you know, was involved many,**  **6 many years ago, we may get an amount of erg**  **7 out of the efficiency of the pump.**  **8 We put all the experts together,**  **9 loss foam, all kinds of smoothness factors and**  **10 all, if the pump is at 80 some percent today,**  **11 we are not going to go to 90, right? By**  **12 definition. Just by different physics and**  **13 laws and mathematical equations, whatever you**  **14 want to do.**  **15 So there's a small gain on the**  **16 pump maybe whereas the system there's a major**  **17 gain.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, and then**  **19 Paul Lin.**  **20 MR. ADIN: I just want to make**  **21 sure a couple of things are clear. First of**  **22 all, with respect to the bare pump metric, we** 

### Page 77

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 are not proposing anything that would require**  **2 the use of a motor that has the actual assumed**  **3 efficiency that would be in other words,**  **4 that assumption about the motor efficiency is**  **5 only for the purpose of comparing the pump's**  **6 efficiency to the standard. You are just**  **7 coming up with a number.**  **8 We are not actually requiring that**  **9 that particular pump be used with**  **10 physically with motor efficiency X when it's**  **11 shipped. Is that is there any confusion**  **12 about that? I don't that's what I seem to**  **13 be hearing from what you were saying. I might**  **14 be misunderstanding that point, but**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: The pump**  **16 efficiency, as I understand it correct me**  **17 here the pump efficiency is going to be**  **18 determined by some sort of a setup with a**  **19 motor that is very completely specified.**  **20 Right?**  **21 MR. ADIN: No. The**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: No?** 

### Page 78

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WIDDER: What Lucas is saying**  **2 is what you just described where someone**  **3 can buy or you have certified the pump**  **4 efficiency, and using the DOE metric that we**  **5 have that the metric we're discussing, you**  **6 use a standardized motor efficiency that's**  **7 consistent with a minimally compliant motor**  **8 for the purposes of DOE's regulations. That's**  **9 probably what we'd pick.**  **10 But whoever buys the bare shaft**  **11 pump, or whoever you sell it to, can pair the**  **12 pump with whatever they want. You are not**  **13 beholden to what they want to pair it with.**  **14 If the customer specs only the bare shaft pump**  **15 and only the motor somewhere else, then that's**  **16 what they that's their prerogative and**  **17 that's not your responsibility.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: I promised Paul he**  **19 could have a shot at this.**  **20 MR. LIN: This is Paul Lin with**  **21 Regal Beloit. Just maybe to address Chuck's**  **22 concern. I think we're just talking about** 

### Page 79

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 United States standards. Anything for export**  **2 is not not within the coverage of the**  **3 scope. And whatever you're building for**  **4 export for can be marked for export and comply**  **5 with whatever standards you want to comply**  **6 with.**  **7 MR. POWERS: And I agree Paul, and**  **8 it**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, go ahead.**  **10 MR. POWERS: in today's world,**  **11 right, if Al is going to make and I'm just**  **12 going to pick a number 1,000 pumps, and I'm**  **13 thinking it makes two actually, but 1,000**  **14 pumps, but but if he makes 1,000 pumps, his**  **15 CIP people, his QUAD people, demands he put**  **16 his operations is to look at lean, to look**  **17 at manufacturing improvements, et cetera.**  **18 It's to compete today, to stay alive, to pay**  **19 people, right? To be able to stay in**  **20 business.**  **21 In order to do that, it would**  **22 behoove him, meaning it would be very** 

### Page 80

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 negative, if he'd say, "Okay. I'm going to**  **2 average 100 pumps a month going domestically,**  **3 but that same plant here in the U.S. is going**  **4 to make the other 900 we're going to export."**  **5 It ain't going to work that way. You're not**  **6 going to have two assembly lines. You're not**  **7 going to have two DFTs. You're not going to**  **8 have you know what I mean? Demand flow.**  **9 It isn't going to work that way.**  **10 So what we're trying to say is we**  **11 get it, we're trying to say how can we make**  **12 this as reasonable as possible so several**  **13 hundred thousand people don't get affected.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Louis, do**  **15 you want to**  **16 MR. STARR: Well, I think I got**  **17 so, really, what the problem is is by having**  **18 you're having to sell to multiple markets,**  **19 which means you need multiple motors now to go**  **20 with your pumps. And so now and pumps.**  **21 So basically what it is is it's**  **22 dividing up your product line, and now you're** 

### Page 81

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 having to essentially make more product lines**  **2 than you were before in order but I'm**  **3 wondering how that would be different in the**  **4 U.S. market with stuff that you sell**  **5 domestically already, because you have to put**  **6 a NEMA motor on there. So I'm trying to see**  **7 how that how is that changing your what**  **8 you sell right today? Because you have to put**  **9 for the products you're selling with the**  **10 motor that go into the U.S. market, it has to**  **11 have this motor that they're talking about.**  **12 So I'm trying to see how business**  **13 wise your business model how that affects**  **14 it negatively, because this is really I**  **15 mean, they chose motor efficiency, but they**  **16 could have chosen, you know, pi. You know,**  **17 just multiply it by 3.14, and this is the**  **18 requirement you have to meet.**  **19 So what I'm trying to understand**  **20 is why is this number if it's something**  **21 that you're selling in the U.S. market, which**  **22 is what is supposed to be sold, is really** 

### Page 82

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 it seems like an arbitrary number that they**  **2 are using.**  **3 MR. POWERS: Because there could**  **4 be changes to the pump to do what you've got**  **5 to do, what you're asking.**  **6 MR. STARR: But not into the**  **7 current product line, right?**  **8 MR. POWERS: I see it. I see it.**  **9 Okay?**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, do you want to**  **11 restate what maybe someone can restate what**  **12 13**  **MR. POWERS: Let me just finish 14**  **one last thing. 15**  **MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck. Chuck is 16**  **not quite finished. Chuck, go ahead. 17**  **MR. POWERS: Twenty years ago, how 18**  **many motor manufacturers were in the U.S.? 19**  **How many today? How many pump guys 20 years 20**  **ago were in the U.S.? And how many today? 21**  **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22**  **MR. HUBER: Our group needs to**

### Page 83

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 caucus.**  **2 MS. WIDDER: So I just**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait a second, Al.**  **4 MS. WIDDER: This is really short.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah, no, let's**  **6 let Al go. Go ahead, Al.**  **7 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Go ahead, Al.**  **8 MR. HUBER: Our group needs to**  **9 caucus.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **11 MR. HUBER: There is no question**  **12 about that. But I want to throw this out**  **13 quickly and then our people can talk about it.**  **14 We came up with an MEI and an EEI. It is just**  **15 a it's the way we calculate it. We can**  **16 call it all MEI, but we all know that the**  **17 total efficiency of the product the bare**  **18 pump is going to be more efficient. Then, we**  **19 add a motor and it's going to be less**  **20 efficient. Then, we're going to add a drive**  **21 and it's going to be less efficient.**  **22 So you are going to get different** 

### Page 84

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 efficiency numbers. I mean, you are going to**  **2 get different results, and you do have to**  **3 change the calculations. But you can call it**  **4 anything you want to call it.**  **5 MS. WIDDER: Right.**  **6 MR. HUBER: So you can say it's**  **7 all an MEI or all an EEI. It doesn't make any**  **8 difference.**  **9 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Doesn't make**  **10 any difference.**  **11 So a couple of things. I think**  **12 to your point, Chuck, I think we are DOE**  **13 spent a lot of time thinking about**  **14 manufacturer burden, and will continue to do**  **15 so. And pump redesign is I mean, if we**  **16 pick an MEI that's bare pump only, you still**  **17 have to think about pump redesign burden. I**  **18 mean, there is just no getting around that,**  **19 regardless of what the metric is.**  **20 So I think that's just sort of a**  **21 high level thing that we are just going to put**  **22 on the back burner for now.** 

### Page 85

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. POWERS: I agree, Sarah.**  **2 MS. WIDDER: Okay.**  **3 MR. POWERS: I agree. Let me just**  **4 say one**  **5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Sure.**  **6 MR. POWERS: if I may, okay? I**  **7 totally agree, but what I'm trying to do is**  **8 not represent Flowserve. I'm on this**  **9 committee to represent pump people. There's**  **10 a bunch of small pump people out there doing**  **11 a great job employing so many people that**  **12 aren't going to be able to afford or deal with**  **13 the changes you're asking. And that's a fact,**  **14 too, and they're going to go out of business.**  **15 But I want to at least give enough of a view**  **16 to say let's give them a fighting chance.**  **17 MS. WIDDER: Yes. So we'll try to**  **18 consider them, too. And I appreciate that**  **19 you're representing them.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I just say**  **21 something real quick on that issue? Just to**  **22 throw it out?** 

### Page 86

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: In a few minutes**  **2 we'll take a caucus break.**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So this might**  **4 potentially offer some flexibility to the**  **5 small manufacturers, because if you don't want**  **6 to hydraulically redesign your pump, you can**  **7 pair a super efficient motor with it and sell**  **8 it out the door I don't know if people**  **9 would really do that, but I'm just throwing it**  **10 out that this gives you a little flexibility**  **11 in the choices you would make.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour gets**  **13 the final comment and then we're going to**  **14 caucus.**  **15 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with**  **16 TACO. I really think, you know, you guys are**  **17 really missing something here, and that is**  **18 it's not necessarily the best efficient point**  **19 to that pump that is really going to save you**  **20 energy. It's when you have engineers out**  **21 there in the marketplace today that are**  **22 selecting pumps that don't even match their** 

### Page 87

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 point of design isn't even close to the point**  **2 of operation.**  **3 That's when you start seeing all**  **4 of these valves going into systems, eating up**  **5 energy, that anything we do to these pumps,**  **6 short of going to the extended product**  **7 approach, is not going to address. And the**  **8 extended product approach is your best**  **9 approach for trying to eliminating many of**  **10 those wasteful energy consuming components in**  **11 the system, in my opinion. I mean, I don't**  **12 know if the rest of you guys agree with that**  **13 or not.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: So how long do you**  **15 think you would need to have a caucus?**  **16 MR. HUBER: About five or 10**  **17 minutes.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Five to 10 minutes?**  **19 MR. HUBER: Yes.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's caucus for 10**  **21 minutes, which means we will resume at 9:25.**  **22 Can I speak with the energy efficiency caucus** 

### Page 88

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 members?**  **2 (Whereupon, the proceedings in the**  **3 above-entitled matter went off the record at**  **4 9:16 a.m. and went back on the record at 9:46**  **5 a.m.)**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, as a process**  **7 note, I appreciate when a caucus is needed**  **8 that people say we should have a caucus.**  **9 That's good.**  **10 And now how should I proceed at**  **11 this point? How should we proceed? Do you**  **12 want to report back from the caucus? Al**  **13 Huber?**  **14 MR. HUBER: Yes. What we would**  **15 like to do is for you to tell us exactly what**  **16 you have in mind, and we are going to try to**  **17 hold our we are going to try to hold our**  **18 comments or anything until you are completely**  **19 done, until we know what your idea is, what**  **20 your not only the high level test method**  **21 but also how you are planning on judging it.**  **22 You know, we proposed an MEI. Are** 

### Page 89

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 you planning on using that formula, those**  **2 strategies? We want to know everything there**  **3 is to know about what you've got in mind. And**  **4 then once we know that, then we'll start**  **5 making comments. But we decided as a group we**  **6 are going to kind of withhold that any**  **7 comment until we get your full picture of what**  **8 you are trying to achieve.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: That seems very**  **10 sensible. And also, it may be that after you**  **11 hear all of this, maybe you will want to**  **12 caucus again. We are you know, we are due**  **13 to take a break in another half an hour, 15,**  **14 20 minutes.**  **15 Chuck.**  **16 MR. POWERS: And because of that,**  **17 to be fair to all the people that aren't**  **18 represented, it may take us three or four**  **19 months to talk to them about all of this**  **20 before we vote on anything.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna Mauer.**  **22 MS. MAUER: And I just wanted to** 

### Page 90

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 add I think if we can also talk about kind**  **2 of what we're trying to accomplish and, you**  **3 know, what are there significant energy**  **4 savings at stake here, just to you know, as**  **5 part of this discussion, but aside from kind**  **6 of any legal issues which I think are still**  **7 kind of unresolved.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So, Joanna,**  **9 say a little more about that. Do you mean**  **10 say a little more about what you mean by**  **11 about what we're ultimately trying to**  **12 accomplish.**  **13 MS. MAUER: So I think I started**  **14 saying yesterday, you know, to me the value**  **15 or kind of the potential value when we talk**  **16 about extended products is so we know that**  **17 there are huge savings that can be achieved by**  **18 using variable speed drives.**  **19 I think the high level question**  **20 is, is there a way through this rulemaking to**  **21 encourage more applications?**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### Page 91

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. MAUER: To encourage these**  **2 extended products with variable speed drives**  **3 and more applications. And, you know, just**  **4 you know, if you're selling an extended**  **5 product today, that's not subject to a**  **6 standard, and then if you're selling that same**  **7 extended product tomorrow and it has to meet**  **8 some standard, does that actually affect**  **9 purchases?**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we're**  **11 just going to put that in the hopper. Just**  **12 hold that for hi, Steve. Good to see you.**  **13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **14 EEI. Again, sorry for the delay. I am seeing**  **15 the slides, and I see the word "motor."**  **16 Shouldn't that be "driver"?**  **17 (Laughter.)**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for the**  **19 specifics. That's helpful. Now, so, Steve,**  **20 since you've joined us, we had a rather**  **21 detailed discussion on kind of the**  **22 fundamentals of test methods, which is** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 something you know a fair amount about. And**  **2 talking about the various approaches to the**  **3 test metric.**  **4 And industry folks had a caucus,**  **5 and now they are going everybody is going**  **6 to listen and they are going to try they**  **7 are going to go through an explanation again**  **8 after Lucas speaks.**  **9 MR. ADIN: All right. So I just**  **10 wanted to address a few points up front here,**  **11 now that we are kind of resetting the**  **12 discussion, starting from hopefully**  **13 starting fresh. I mean, we had some**  **14 substantive discussion on this item**  **15 previously, and I think we are, in some**  **16 respects, kind of talking circles around each**  **17 other because this is a complex topic and**  **18 there are a lot of things at stake, obviously,**  **19 and so we want to make sure that we're all**  **20 clear on what we are really talking about,**  **21 what the intent is.**  **22 So, first of all, just as an up** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 front point, it certainly wasn't my vision**  **2 that we would be voting on anything related to**  **3 this today. I think, really, we just wanted**  **4 to set up a discussion to make sure that we**  **5 kind of got the ball rolling on the topic of**  **6 metric and test procedure, because certainly**  **7 we are going to be addressing these things,**  **8 whether it's in the next meeting or the one**  **9 after that, in much more specific terms.**  **10 And these things will become vital**  **11 to doing the analysis we will need to do for**  **12 evaluating a standard relatively soon.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a very good**  **14 point.**  **15 MR. ADIN: So we want to make sure**  **16 that we understand that up front, and so**  **17 clearly to make sure we are talking about this**  **18 the same way, we need to start getting into**  **19 the details more and that's fine. I just**  **20 wanted to make sure that was clear up front.**  **21 The other aspect of this that I**  **22 think might have been causing some confusion** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 is that from a fundamental or at a**  **2 fundamental level DOE is not on a not of a**  **3 different mind set when it comes to recognize**  **4 the benefits of an extended system or a system**  **5 that uses a VSD. I think we want a metric**  **6 that really is essentially along the same**  **7 lines as the EEI that was brought forward by**  **8 HI.**  **9 I think there is clearly a lot of**  **10 benefit to be shown by using a metric that**  **11 recognizes the use of variable speed systems**  **12 under varying load, compared with a system**  **13 that is varying its load based on throttling.**  **14 And so we are looking for a metric that would**  **15 be able to accomplish that, and we are going**  **16 to explain that in a little more detail**  **17 what we had in mind, but so getting past**  **18 the terminology MEI, EEI I mean, I think**  **19 in conceptual terms we are actually talking**  **20 about the same thing.**  **21 We are starting with that extended**  **22 product metric and drawing it back and just** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 making sure that it's actually the same metric**  **2 all the way through. It's just recognizing**  **3 the energy savings benefits of those different**  **4 configurations using the same analytical**  **5 metric. And we'll explain what we're talking**  **6 about in a little more detail.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm eager to give**  **8 them a chance. But Mike Rivest wants to make**  **9 a comment. So, Mike Rivest, please join us.**  **10 Mike Rivest is a team leader with Navigant.**  **11 Mike, Speak up. We can't hear you, Mike.**  **12 MR. RIVEST: Can you hear me now?**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. We can hear**  **14 you now. Yes.**  **15 MR. RIVEST: Okay. Well, I think**  **16 Lucas has essentially covered what I wanted to**  **17 speak. I had a chance to talk to the team at**  **18 the break, and so I don't need to say any more**  **19 at this point.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, thanks**  **21 for listening in.**  **22 Louis, a comment, and then we're** 

### Page 96

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 going to return to the team.**  **2 MR. STARR: So I think what Joanna**  **3 was speaking about when she mentioned that**  **4 first thing, and then Lucas just mentioned**  **5 that this energy efficiency index, which may**  **6 be re-termed something else now, he is saying**  **7 that that would discourage the use of valving**  **8 down systems. And that's the part I think she**  **9 is not really clear how that is going to**  **10 encourage things in the marketplace.**  **11 If I have an energy efficiency**  **12 index, I could still do that exact same thing**  **13 as an owner. It's like, hmm, I don't want to**  **14 buy VFD. I'll just valve down my outside**  **15 supply. So that's when she is referring**  **16 to, how does that encourage more people to**  **17 install VFDs rather than just valving down,**  **18 that's what she is getting at.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I got you.**  **20 MR. STARR: So that would be**  **21 that's kind of we're having a lot of**  **22 discussion, but we what we're kind of** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 wanting to understand, I have some different**  **2 thoughts about what you where you're**  **3 gaining that efficiency, but**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: So, but let's**  **5 proceed here. Let's hear from Sarah and**  **6 Alison. Take it away. Use the microphone.**  **7 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So thanks for**  **8 that sort of setup. I think, like Lucas said,**  **9 we are going to try and restart the**  **10 conversation, and actually Joanna mentioned,**  **11 we are going to start the conversation at the**  **12 opposite end of where we started before,**  **13 talking about how the metric might capture the**  **14 benefits of a controlled system, and then as**  **15 compared to an uncontrolled system, and then**  **16 how analytically we could apply a similar**  **17 metric construct to pumps that are sold**  **18 without controls, which we you know, we**  **19 will still need to offer for sale in the**  **20 market for specific applications, to your**  **21 point.**  **22 So there will be some** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 consideration about, are we pushing people**  **2 towards VSDs or not? But that's we can**  **3 have that discussion later.**  **4 So at a high level, the idea is if**  **5 you have this actually, will you go two**  **6 slides down? If you have the case where it's**  **7 a pump and a driver and controls all together,**  **8 not talking about testing versus calculation**  **9 methods, we want to capture the efficiency of**  **10 the pump the efficiency of the driver**  **11 system or the energy use of the pump the**  **12 energy the driver system and the energy use**  **13 or reduced energy use that is possible from a**  **14 control at lower flow conditions.**  **15 So our thought here, just for a**  **16 standardized way of calculating this**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: Which is HI's.**  **18 MS. WIDDER: This is very similar**  **19 we took a lot of ideas from the comments**  **20 submitted by HI. So the idea would be you set**  **21 up a pump. You're measuring the energy use of**  **22 a pumping system, including a driver and** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 controls, at 100 percent of BEP flow. That's**  **2 what this 100 refers to here.**  **3 It could be 100 gallons per minute**  **4 for this example, but it's 100 percent of BEP**  **5 flow at this point. And then, measure that**  **6 same energy use at 75 percent of BEP flow,**  **7 allowing the VSD to reduce the speed of the**  **8 motor, and so then attaining a lower energy**  **9 use condition.**  **10 And we wanted we have to use**  **11 energy use here, just as a clarification, as**  **12 opposed to efficiency because the efficiency**  **13 won't really show that dramatic of a change as**  **14 you go down the system curve. It is really**  **15 the energy use that is significantly reduced.**  **16 And then measuring again the**  **17 energy use of the system at 50 percent flow**  **18 condition and 25 percent flow condition. And**  **19 when I say measure, I want to be clear that we**  **20 are not actually measuring every single**  **21 combination of motor controls and pumps. We**  **22 sort of had a long discussion about that** 

### Page 100

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 before where just the metric is representing**  **2 the energy use of all those three components**  **3 at these four rating points.**  **4 And we are considering doing that**  **5 with a calculation method, so that the**  **6 different combinations of motors and drivers**  **7 and controls and pumps can be considered**  **8 analytically or be a calculation. You don't**  **9 have to test every you know, all of the**  **10 thousands of combinations you might have.**  **11 So I don't know if we I guess**  **12 we can talk through how that might work in**  **13 this case and then go back to the pump plus**  **14 motor case. So in this case you would measure**  **15 you would put the pump in the test stand and**  **16 measure the efficiency of the pump at these**  **17 four rating points. And it could be you**  **18 know, we can have a discussion later on about**  **19 whether in the EU for circulators this is**  **20 more of a straight line, and this is drawn**  **21 more like a system curve that is a parabolic.**  **22 That's what DOE is considering. Or, you know,** 

### Page 101

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 what's on here, this piece of paper. But we**  **2 can definitely have more discussions about**  **3 that.**  **4 But, theoretically, you would just**  **5 measure the shaft horsepower provided to the**  **6 pump at these rating points. Then you would**  **7 have your standardized motor nameplate**  **8 efficiency that would be applied to that brake**  **9 horsepower supplied to the pump, and then a**  **10 determination of VSD efficiency that would**  **11 need to be accounted for. So additional, you**  **12 know, losses that are associated with the**  **13 controls.**  **14 But you still get a significantly**  **15 reduced power number because your brake**  **16 horsepower supplied to the pump is so much**  **17 lower when you allow for reduced speed. And**  **18 that is the metric that theoretically, just at**  **19 a high level, is the metric we are wanting to**  **20 achieve and represent for a controlled system.**  **21 And then for an uncontrolled**  **22 system, so if we take it back, we have a motor** 

### Page 102

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 and a pump, or a driver and a pump with no**  **2 controls, you would start at the same**  **3 location, but you would be moving on the pump**  **4 curve, not on the system curve, at those same**  **5 four load points. And this would just be what**  **6 essentially what you would achieve if you**  **7 throttled the system back to those same four**  **8 flow conditions.**  **9 And you would also theoretically**  **10 want to well, so you would compare the same**  **11 brake horsepower that you measure at these**  **12 four points, and then a standardized or**  **13 nameplate motor efficiency applied to those**  **14 brake horsepower, add them all four up with**  **15 some sort of weighting, and then you have a**  **16 metric that's a much higher power much**  **17 higher energy use for the uncontrolled case**  **18 than for the controlled case.**  **19 And then, very similarly for the**  **20 bare pump case, instead of taking a nameplate**  **21 motor efficiency, you have a lookup table.**  **22 You just have one motor efficiency that is** 

### Page 103

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 applied. Al is looking confused, so I'm going**  **2 to say that again. So the pump the bare**  **3 pump and the pump plus motor case would be**  **4 identical from a pump efficiency testing**  **5 they are actually all identical from a pump**  **6 testing perspective. You measure the brake**  **7 horsepower at each of these flow points and**  **8 you have that brake horsepower.**  **9 In the pump plus motor case, you**  **10 as we discussed earlier, you have a motor**  **11 nameplate efficiency that you are intending or**  **12 are selling the pump with. It is packaged**  **13 together. That's how it's being sold into the**  **14 market.**  **15 In the bare pump case, it could be**  **16 sold with any number of motors, and you are**  **17 just certifying the bare pump, and then using**  **18 a number that is provided as part of the test**  **19 procedure; that is, the minimally efficient**  **20 motor.**  **21 So if you were to so you have**  **22 you measure your pump efficiency, you apply** 

### Page 104

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 a minimally efficient motor. If we talk about**  **2 options for efficiency, I have the option of**  **3 just pairing a more efficient motor and**  **4 accounting for that in my pump plus motor**  **5 combination.**  **6 Or I have the option of adding**  **7 controls and then achieving a much more**  **8 efficient or much lower energy using system.**  **9 So that, at a high level, is what we were**  **10 trying to talk through earlier.**  **11 The A and B on these slides, which**  **12 we got a little bit confused about earlier,**  **13 was something that we were thinking about. Is**  **14 it appropriate that we apply calculations to**  **15 every system? Or would it be advantageous to**  **16 have a physical wire to water test in some**  **17 cases, for example, submersibles, end suction**  **18 close coupled pumps that are is difficult**  **19 to measure brake horsepower directly.**  **20 I understand you can do it with**  **21 calibrated motor and back it out, but in those**  **22 cases, would you want a wire to water test as** 

### Page 105

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 opposed to having brake horsepower and then**  **2 applying nameplate values. That was the**  **3 reasoning behind having the A and B options.**  **4 But, theoretically, at a high**  **5 level the metric would be constructed the**  **6 same. You would just then have input power to**  **7 the motor and then apply some savings due to**  **8 controls or measure input power to the motor**  **9 at these four flow points.**  **10 So I think that's all. Is there**  **11 anything else I should add at this point? I**  **12 think we're good.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.**  **14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **15 EEI. So, again, at the high level, are you**  **16 kind of talking about three metrics, kind of**  **17 a bare pump metric, a bare pump and driver**  **18 metric, and then a bare pump, driver, and**  **19 control metric? Because it sounded like you**  **20 could do all three in a way. Because you said**  **21 remember you said something about bare pump**  **22 lookup with an efficiency.** 

### Page 106

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WIDDER: Right.**  **2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, I'm just**  **3 trying to**  **4 MS. WIDDER: Right. So**  **5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: on this high**  **6 level**  **7 MS. WIDDER: Yes. High level, the**  **8 idea is to have the same metric for all. So**  **9 if we actually wrote out what was in these**  **10 what was captured in these P values, it would**  **11 be the idea is to capture the input power**  **12 to the -- input energy**  **13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.**  **14 MS. WIDDER: to this pump,**  **15 which based on slides way, way back include a**  **16 motor and controls driver and controls.**  **17 And then so this is basically capturing this**  **18 energy input. You could call it E, energy**  **19 input, on the up front side, in each case at**  **20 each of these load points, so we're trying to**  **21 apply that consistently, but they might be**  **22 treated as different equipment classes.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So I'll**  **2 just kind of keep it to high level. I'm**  **3 familiar with you know, what they do for**  **4 cooling equipment is IPLV or IEER, where they**  **5 also do this. They do different loadings, but**  **6 they also do a weighted you know, P for 100**  **7 percent, let's say, is five percent. P at 75**  **8 is, let's say, 45 percent or 50 percent. And**  **9 then 50 percent just kind of weighted based**  **10 on some field data that they have in terms of,**  **11 okay, for that chiller or that air**  **12 conditioner, how much is it really loaded in**  **13 the real world in terms of time to different**  **14 loading?**  **15 So, again, I don't know if you**  **16 want to if weighting is going to play into**  **17 this calculation or not. It's up to the**  **18 group, obviously. That is you know, that**  **19 is one consideration.**  **20 The other thing I wanted to say**  **21 when you talk about, you know, let's call it,**  **22 whether it's a motor or a driver motors are** 

### Page 108

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 only the rating on the nameplate is only at**  **2 100 percent. So if the pump or the flow is to**  **3 50 percent, that nameplate rating is not**  **4 now typically with luckily with motors,**  **5 with most of them, you know, the 50 percent**  **6 efficiency is very close to 100 percent. But**  **7 if you're below 50 percent, watch out. That's**  **8 the other thing.**  **9 So, again, I guess conceptually in**  **10 terms of that, that issue is, do you have to**  **11 adjust for it? Or do you just do it for the**  **12 basic case at one testing point? I'm just**  **13 again, conceptually, rather than four testing**  **14 points of the basic case. If you're just**  **15 trying to rely on the driver rated efficiency,**  **16 you just want one rating condition.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to be**  **18 very systematic about the way we do this. Do**  **19 you have additional comments based on what he**  **20 said?**  **21 MS. WIDDER: Sure. I'll just**  **22 address a couple of things really quickly, and** 

### Page 109

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 then I want to let Charlie go. So in answer**  **2 to or I agree with a lot of the points you**  **3 made. We could consider weightings. That**  **4 could be the same or different for any of**  **5 these load points. Additionally, these flow**  **6 conditions could be different than what has**  **7 been presented here.**  **8 This is just a proposal that is**  **9 based on the EEI metric that HI presented. I**  **10 put a star by this one, because if we consider**  **11 this throttled case there is actually quite a**  **12 number of pumps that can't achieve 25 percent**  **13 of BEP flow with throttling. So we might want**  **14 to consider different flow conditions. But,**  **15 yes, all those points.**  **16 And we did have a discussion**  **17 earlier about applying full load motor**  **18 efficiency to all of these rating points, and**  **19 the fact that we are making some**  **20 accommodations for the burden of applying the**  **21 test procedure but sacrificing a little bit of**  **22 accuracy. But thankfully, like you mentioned,** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 you know, if we keep the range of the motor**  **2 loading, you know, we might be okay.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **4 MS. WIDDER: So then we can**  **5 consider that.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie is first in**  **7 the queue.**  **8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thank you.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: And then Louis.**  **10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **11 Cappellino, ITT. I wanted to kind of tie it**  **12 back to what Joanna said. And just for**  **13 clarity, when I have heard people talk about**  **14 metrics, one of the first things that you ask**  **15 is, what behavior are you trying to drive, or**  **16 what actions are you trying to drive.**  **17 So could you spend just a little**  **18 bit of time, do you have some thoughts in your**  **19 head or ideas in terms of when we kind of step**  **20 back and look at a big picture standpoint,**  **21 from an extended product standpoint, and**  **22 everything else, I mean, do you have specific** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 ideas in mind in terms of what behaviors you**  **2 are trying to drive here?**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **4 MR. ADIN: So the answer to that**  **5 is yes, and, I mean, I think there are two**  **6 different potential influences that this**  **7 metric could have. And it depends on what the**  **8 pump customer is ultimately trying to**  **9 accomplish, obviously.**  **10 So if they're in a situation where**  **11 they could contemplate the use of either a**  **12 throttled system or a VSD based multiple speed**  **13 system, this potentially could represent the**  **14 energy savings that they could get from going**  **15 to an energy saving decision. Right. They**  **16 could accomplish that.**  **17 If they're in a position where**  **18 they are only going to be operating single**  **19 speed, there is no advantage to them**  **20 whatsoever to buy a VSD based system, well, it**  **21 still would provide the advantage of being**  **22 able of them being able to compare systems** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 or pumps within the same arrangement, in other**  **2 words. So there would still be a metric that**  **3 allows them to evaluate which particular pump,**  **4 pump plus motor, is more efficient than**  **5 another and make a good purchasing decision on**  **6 that basis.**  **7 So, really, there are two**  **8 dimensions across which they could potentially**  **9 find a way to save energy.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?**  **11 MR. ADIN: That's the general**  **12 idea.**  **13 MR. STARR: And perhaps, you know,**  **14 it may be I guess the EEI, I'm not sure if**  **15 that's exactly what the HI guys have. But it**  **16 seems like the flatness of the pump curve**  **17 could also be not necessarily with respect of**  **18 the MEI rating, so you could actually be**  **19 running counter purposes.**  **20 The MEI essentially cuts out a**  **21 certain percentage of the pumps, and then so**  **22 then you are adding overlaying on that a** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 certain if the curve is flatter instead of**  **2 sharper, then your rating seems like it's**  **3 affecting it's adding a second dimension**  **4 which may or may not be of value.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: I've got a question**  **6 for**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I respond?**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Please.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: So on that topic we**  **10 have done some brief looks at that, and adding**  **11 additional load points in the motor does**  **12 potentially change slightly if a so if we**  **13 assumed, like MEI 40, right, and we did an**  **14 analysis of which pumps passed and which pumps**  **15 failed, and then instead we applied this**  **16 metric, there are some pumps that would**  **17 change. But overall it would be essentially**  **18 the same.**  **19 So there is a few near the border**  **20 that it would make a difference to, but in**  **21 general in a lot of you know, in a**  **22 single product class, for a single specific** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 speed, there is not I probably shouldn't be**  **2 saying this in front of all of these pump**  **3 manufacturers, but there is not a huge amount**  **4 of variability in the pump curve for a single**  **5 product class, a single specific speed. So**  **6 where those fall isn't a huge deal.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is go**  **8 ahead, Louis. Keep going.**  **9 MR. STARR: I was just going to**  **10 well, another thing is that sort of you're**  **11 modeling bad behavior, too. So your metric**  **12 in other words, valving off is a bad idea.**  **13 So you're sort of you're setting your**  **14 metric to a bad idea, which kind of inherently**  **15 seems like it's not a good idea.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Several people wish**  **17 to speak. I want to do one thing before I go**  **18 to Greg and then to Doug.**  **19 This seems like a fairly**  **20 fundamental question, and this is from Arnold**  **21 either Sdano or is that it? Arnold asks,**  **22 how will the reduced motor and VFD efficiency** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 due to reduced speed and loads be accounted**  **2 for?**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams.**  **4 So we have looked into that, and we**  **5 MS. WIDDER: No. He can't see**  **6 what we're drawing.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh. He can't**  **8 MS. WIDDER: He can't see what**  **9 we're drawing.**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, but he is**  **11 talking about reduced efficiency, which we**  **12 didn't really talk about. Well, Sarah briefly**  **13 mentioned, you know, the discussion of whether**  **14 using full load motor efficiency is**  **15 acceptable, and obviously efficiency of VSD**  **16 does drop off at part load.**  **17 So that is something that could**  **18 potentially be considered. DOE only certifies**  **19 motor efficiency at full load, so there are**  **20 some other considerations in looking at that.**  **21 But we certainly thought about how that would**  **22 be accounted for.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. All of this**  **2 discussion has been Alison there, and now**  **3 to Greg Case.**  **4 MR. CASE: My question is this**  **5 is Greg Case, HI. My question is for Sarah.**  **6 You guys actually pointed out a flaw in our**  **7 EEI when we met with you guys alone, that it**  **8 compares the pump against itself, not against**  **9 a reference pump.**  **10 So Europe has has changed that**  **11 to have a reference power, and I believe that**  **12 we need to do the same thing, so that we have**  **13 a common reference that we are working**  **14 against.**  **15 MS. WIDDER: So I think that's a**  **16 really good point, and something we have had**  **17 a lot of discussions about. HI's metric, just**  **18 for the benefit of everyone here, that was**  **19 proposed in response to the framework document**  **20 actually was these four points with a**  **21 denominator of these four points.**  **22 So it's really only comparing the** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 unthrottled pump of a specific pump to the**  **2 controlled case. So you are looking at how**  **3 good a set of controls is on a given pump, but**  **4 you have no way of, yes, comparing that to**  **5 other pumps.**  **6 So we tried to address that in the**  **7 metric we discussed here by eliminating the**  **8 denominator all together. So we are just**  **9 looking at input power at these four points.**  **10 There is no denominator.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison.**  **12 MS. WILLIAMS: And because there**  **13 is no we think it's possibly okay that**  **14 there is no denominator, because the standard**  **15 can still be set as a function of specific**  **16 speed and flow.**  **17 So you don't everything doesn't**  **18 have to be normalized, because it will depend**  **19 on where you are on the specific speed and**  **20 flow curve.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts.**  **22 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts from** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 American Water. I'm just wondering I**  **2 understand how measuring the characteristics**  **3 at different speeds can demonstrate the**  **4 savings, but in terms of like a test procedure**  **5 and a certification procedure, it seems to me**  **6 that, you know, the two components that play**  **7 into that are the affinity laws and then the**  **8 system head curve. We are not regulating the**  **9 system, and we can't change the affinity laws.**  **10 It seems like all that's doing is**  **11 confirming to us that the affinity laws are**  **12 true, and I don't see the value I don't**  **13 unless I'm missing something, I don't see the**  **14 value in that. You're confirming a**  **15 mathematical theory that we already know to be**  **16 true.**  **17 And if you say, well like I**  **18 said, there's affinity laws and there's a**  **19 system. You say, well, we're going to use**  **20 standard system characteristics for the**  **21 certification. Why? Because every system is**  **22 going to be different, and, you know, you are** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 just back to the affinity laws again. So**  **2 MS. WIDDER: It is true that this**  **3 is an application of the affinity laws. And**  **4 the so the affinity laws are theoretical**  **5 pump laws that adjust that describe how**  **6 flow and head and power characteristics change**  **7 with respect to speed of the pump, for**  **8 everyone in the room.**  **9 So if you reduced so these are**  **10 different speeds, these lines that Alison**  **11 these curves that Alison just drew. So if we**  **12 went from full speed to this reduced speed to**  **13 achieve a 75 percent flow condition, instead**  **14 of being up here, we're actually using much**  **15 less power based on the affinity laws.**  **16 And to your point, we are**  **17 essentially just confirming the affinity laws,**  **18 and we would have to assume or it would be**  **19 beneficial for repeatability's sake to assume**  **20 the same system curve for all certification**  **21 testing. But the benefit of the metric would**  **22 be that you are demonstrating the value of** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 adjusting speed instead of other methods of**  **2 reducing flow on a given pump system.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **4 MR. ADIN: Just to elaborate a**  **5 little bit on that, I mean, I think really**  **6 what we're talking about is not so much**  **7 confirming the affinity laws, it's that we are**  **8 providing a standardized way to quantify the**  **9 difference, and understanding that specific**  **10 installations and systems are going to be**  **11 different in actual application.**  **12 But it provides a numerical energy**  **13 savings estimate of what that actual**  **14 difference is for those two different I**  **15 don't know how the extent to which that**  **16 answers your question, but**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug, follow on.**  **18 MR. POTTS: Yes, Doug again. But**  **19 I guess I'm wondering, are you either, a)**  **20 using it to sort of communicate in your**  **21 document, hey, folks, using VFDs in systems**  **22 where you would have otherwise been throttling** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 is a good idea, and here is an example**  **2 calculation of why it's a good idea. Is it**  **3 that, or are you actually saying that, for**  **4 those of you that sell pumps and VFDs, you**  **5 have to test this system in this manner, and**  **6 it has to meet certain criteria in this**  **7 manner.**  **8 And if that's the case, then I'm**  **9 I don't see I don't see the value of that**  **10 other than it just is educational and showing**  **11 that showing somebody who doesn't believe**  **12 the affinity laws that, oh, yes, it actually**  **13 does work, you know.**  **14 (Laughter.)**  **15 Do you understand what I'm saying?**  **16 MS. WIDDER: Yes.**  **17 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, in**  **18 effect, it's actually both of those things,**  **19 because this system would be covered. I mean,**  **20 the standards would still be applicable, so**  **21 it's really in effect both, but**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck first, and** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 then to Al.**  **2 MR. POWERS: Yes. Pump 101 is**  **3 good. Okay? Most of our engineers figure**  **4 through that in the first year because they**  **5 have to, right? And I get that you're**  **6 speaking to an audience, so that everybody**  **7 understands. But at the end of the day, the**  **8 people that have to make that happen are the**  **9 pump guys.**  **10 So we're probably past our Ph.D.**  **11 and get it, right? The question is, though --**  **12 your statement was wrong, Alison. You can**  **13 change the curve shape, not necessarily with**  **14 specific speed because specific speed is a**  **15 very defined value on a curve, max volume, and**  **16 all that kind of good stuff. But you can have**  **17 low capacity, medium capacity, a given wheel,**  **18 and you can change that shape. It's done**  **19 every day, and that's the real world out**  **20 there. Okay?**  **21 Now, don't throw me at the**  **22 functional numbers. I'll explain something in** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 a second, okay? If you haven't laid out a**  **2 hydraulic profile of a pump, you may not know.**  **3 So there's other factors we have to worry**  **4 about.**  **5 Going at 25 percent, based on the**  **6 specific speed and design, there is a thing**  **7 called NPSH. And the NPSH a lot of people**  **8 think goes down if no, it actually comes**  **9 back up to the left, and you may not be able**  **10 to run a pump at 25 percent. You get that.**  **11 Okay.**  **12 Number two, on common header**  **13 systems versus single header, okay, you may**  **14 have a runout, you may have a condition which**  **15 most of the guys that Doug does, they will**  **16 pick that I wouldn't necessarily call it**  **17 the BEP, but they will pick that 100 percent**  **18 point where it impacts that system curve, not**  **19 necessarily the speed of the pump of the VFD**  **20 and all that stuff, because what ends up**  **21 happening, if it's a two pump system, if one**  **22 pump shuts down, the other one actually has to** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 run out further because of the shape.**  **2 Number two, if you have a static**  **3 system or you have a lift system, the system**  **4 curve starts up higher on the left bar, right?**  **5 So you may not need to get to 25 percent. I**  **6 mean, you get all that, right?**  **7 MS. WIDDER: Yes.**  **8 MR. POWERS: So what I'm saying**  **9 is, in the process you're talking about, the**  **10 actual hydraulic design and what we're going**  **11 to have to go through, the impact of this can**  **12 vary.**  **13 And, number two, running it just**  **14 by flow may not be the answer that I think**  **15 Doug is trying to get to, because if you use**  **16 a VFD in these others, they don't parallel**  **17 each other. Okay? You could go to 75**  **18 percent, and you may start at 100 percent**  **19 being a pump at 80 percent efficiency.**  **20 Power savings I get, because, like**  **21 you said, I get the power savings thing. But**  **22 would you go to 75 percent? Yes. Power is** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 going to be down, speed is down, everything**  **2 else. But all of a sudden your pump may be at**  **3 70 percent efficiency. It won't follow that**  **4 line.**  **5 In other words, the VFD will help**  **6 you on power reduction, but it's not going to**  **7 help you on the consumption issue, right, if**  **8 you look at it.**  **9 Now, the other item that I want to**  **10 propose is what Joanna brought up. It would**  **11 be good if everybody wanted to go buy VFDs.**  **12 So if a pump is five bucks, and a motor is**  **13 five bucks, the VFD might be 100 bucks.**  **14 People can't afford that. Not every system**  **15 out there is going to have VFD. It is a good**  **16 idea. It's a good thing to do. The question**  **17 is, do they need to throttle or don't they?**  **18 Is there enough adjustments in the system that**  **19 validates having a VFD?**  **20 But people aren't going to be able**  **21 to afford those kind of numerical numbers. So**  **22 if the standard is trying to say based on what** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 you end up with, look at it this way. If it's**  **2 constant speed versus VFD, I'm okay with that**  **3 kind of like. But we have to be very careful**  **4 on product types and a lot of factors.**  **5 Now, the last thing is, on 200**  **6 horsepower and below versus 200 and above, you**  **7 get into 1,000, 5,000, Al does, I do, and**  **8 Charlie does over there, so all kinds of**  **9 really cool things we can do, customize pumps**  **10 to assist in making this perfect. Right?**  **11 But when you are talking about**  **12 standardized product going out every day,**  **13 right, we don't want to touch them. We want**  **14 to improve it, get it to a point, and we're**  **15 done. Right? And we just you know, they**  **16 come through every day, we don't test them**  **17 anymore, they pop out the door, and we're**  **18 meeting a certain so we're not going to be**  **19 touching these things. We're not going to be**  **20 looking at them. They're just the popcorn,**  **21 right?**  **22 The second thing is, in 200** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 horsepower and below, you get to the losses**  **2 issue to where you can't make that much of a**  **3 difference. Passageways are smaller.**  **4 Clearances are different. You know, wear**  **5 rings, no wear rings, things like that.**  **6 And then, efficiency, we also have**  **7 to be careful about how tight we tighten up**  **8 the specs. Clearances is it going to be**  **9 sustainable? Right?**  **10 MS. WIDDER: Right. So you**  **11 brought up a lot of I think those are all**  **12 good points, and Alison and I have been**  **13 listening. The one thing I do want to respond**  **14 to just real quickly that I thought you**  **15 brought up that was something that we should**  **16 just address a little bit more is the concept**  **17 of utility.**  **18 So we heard from Joanna and Louis**  **19 and some of the advocates we want a metric**  **20 that can help encourage energy savings I think**  **21 would is that a fair characterization? But**  **22 on the other side, we also want a metric that** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 conserves utility for the customers of pumps**  **2 or the users of pumps. If they have a**  **3 constant head application, then we don't want**  **4 to push everyone to VSDs, because that's not**  **5 appropriate.**  **6 So I think we do have to be**  **7 cognizant of that balance, and so I just**  **8 wanted to that's a good point, and we are**  **9 trying to walk that line with this metric and**  **10 then we are also getting away from pump**  **11 efficiency. So there is no you don't have**  **12 to measure you don't have to be penalized**  **13 for reduced pump efficiency at these lower**  **14 flow points. The metric is sort of designed**  **15 that way. So just that just so you know.**  **16 MR. POWERS: Well, I don't totally**  **17 agree with you there, but my question would**  **18 be, have you done a study to say, what is the**  **19 current market on VFDs today, volume wise, how**  **20 many? If 100 pumps ship out the door, how**  **21 many use VFDs?**  **22 I know what EU says. I know what** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 the independent reports have said, and I know**  **2 what the global numbers are. But have you**  **3 guys looked at it for the U.S. to find out**  **4 but do you have that feedback to say the**  **5 volume is X? And we know how big the mountain**  **6 is.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So let me**  **8 just follow up on one thing in terms of**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison.**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: the balance that**  **11 Sarah is talking about. The discussion we're**  **12 having does not necessarily have anything to**  **13 do with equipment classes. So just because**  **14 there is a single metric for everything**  **15 doesn't mean there would necessarily be the**  **16 same standard for everything.**  **17 So there can be decisions made**  **18 about whether these types of configurations**  **19 should have the same or different standards,**  **20 and that is a whole other conversation. So,**  **21 you know, but obviously these will use less**  **22 energy than these, right, and so there will be** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 a spectrum, and there is different places that**  **2 you could choose to set the standard.**  **3 So that's not a de facto decision**  **4 that has already been made.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, I'm trying to**  **6 be systematic about this. Al Huber is next in**  **7 the queue, and then we're going to hear from**  **8 I've forgotten your name.**  **9 MS. PETRILLO GROH: Laura Petrillo**  **10 Groh.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Laura.**  **12 Okay. Al, please.**  **13 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **14 Are you planning on, since there are no VFD**  **15 standards today, and since DOE standards,**  **16 motors are not an issue because as much an**  **17 issue because there are standards. There are**  **18 no standards on them, so are you proposing**  **19 that we test for the VFD? I mean, if you're**  **20 going to be reasonably accurate, that's what**  **21 you're going to have to do. I mean, I don't**  **22 see how you'd do it, because nowhere we can** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 get that information other than by test.**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So sorry,**  **3 this is Alison. The slide about the pump plus**  **4 motor controls, it's something that's still**  **5 being looked at. You could potentially test**  **6 with it. The other possibility to potentially**  **7 throw out is that AHRI has developed the motor**  **8 plus VFD program, and potentially that's one**  **9 source of information for that. But we don't**  **10 haven't fully answered that yet.**  **11 MS. WIDDER: Oh, Lucas, and then I**  **12 13**  **MR. ADIN: Let me just clarify 14**  **something here. I don't know that we're 15**  **necessarily proposing that you would have to 16**  **do a test, whether it be VFD, and determine 17**  **exactly what its efficiency is. I mean, if 18**  **you want to be exactly accurate, then, yes, 19**  **that's what you would need to do. 20**  **But recognizing that the test 21**  **procedure, you know, is still a question and 22**  **there are obviously significant burden issues**

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 associated with doing that, I think more what**  **2 we're talking about is, you know, effectively**  **3 some kind of factor included in the metric,**  **4 whatever the calculation is that we come up**  **5 with. So essentially using a calculation to**  **6 recognize the benefits of the VFD and these**  **7 variable load conditions.**  **8 It's not exactly what is the**  **9 precise efficiency of that VFD, because**  **10 ultimately we are not trying to put a standard**  **11 on the efficiency of VFDs themselves.**  **12 MR. HUBER: We understand that.**  **13 The thing that concerns me, though, is that**  **14 the cost benefit analysis and all the rest of**  **15 this is going to tie all the way back into**  **16 these things. And if you don't use something**  **17 that is reasonably accurate, I mean,**  **18 reasonably accurate and there are no**  **19 published standards today on what a VFD is at**  **20 75, 100 percent, 50, 25.**  **21 Unless you do that unless you**  **22 do that, then and we have that, and you** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 actually do that, then it will skew your**  **2 analysis. And that's what I'm concerned**  **3 about. If you test it, it's one thing. But**  **4 if you don't, we've got to have some published**  **5 data that's accurate, reasonably accurate.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Laura Petrillo**  **7 Groh.**  **8 MS. PETRILLO GROH: Laura Petrillo**  **9 Groh, AHRI. I feel like I'm going to sing a**  **10 song to you guys, and maybe I will.**  **11 So, yes, I'm glad that the order**  **12 turned out the way it did, because I can build**  **13 nicely on Al's comments, and I have a few**  **14 questions that I'd like to bring up at this**  **15 time.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **17 MS. PETRILLO GROH: AHRI 1210 does**  **18 provide a way to find the variable speed drive**  **19 or variable frequency drive efficiency. It's**  **20 the stand alone product efficiency using a**  **21 four pole motor at 40 percent, 75 percent**  **22 40 percent, 50 percent, 75 percent, and 100** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 percent efficiency.**  **2 The standard is relatively new,**  **3 was first published in 2011 I believe, and**  **4 there is a certification program that has been**  **5 launched. It's my understanding that there**  **6 are several manufacturers currently conducting**  **7 the testing to establish the numbers for their**  **8 products before listing them.**  **9 But looking at the slide with A, I**  **10 don't understand how that doesn't de facto**  **11 regulate variable speed drives, because we**  **12 discussed yesterday that a manufacturer could**  **13 be a distributor or contractor. So you would**  **14 need to provide a way to get the pump the**  **15 numbers you're getting from testing the pump,**  **16 and the numbers that you're getting testing**  **17 the VFD and motor combination.**  **18 So I think looking at motors other**  **19 than four pole motors, you may end up having**  **20 you know, I don't know DOE does not have**  **21 the authority right now to regulate VSDs. And**  **22 you're going to end up with potentially** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 duplicative standards for, you know, the VFD**  **2 manufacturers, establishing their testing**  **3 data.**  **4 They market these products, not**  **5 just the pumps but there are so many different**  **6 applications. It sounds like the pump guys**  **7 and, you know, the VFD guys are happy dating.**  **8 They like when their distributors carry**  **9 multiple products, but they don't necessarily**  **10 want to marry those products together for**  **11 you know, for all eternity.**  **12 So has there been an economic**  **13 impact analysis done which includes the VFD**  **14 manufacturers? I know there is not a working**  **15 group member that can represent them and speak**  **16 for them, so**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.**  **18 MR. ADIN: Well, just to reiterate**  **19 and maybe I wasn't clear enough earlier, but**  **20 I mean, we're not looking to regulate VFDs.**  **21 We're regulating pumps. And so understanding**  **22 that the VFD in this particular case is a** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 component of what we're, you know, looking at**  **2 as a pump, a certain configuration, the metric**  **3 can be designed such that you are not**  **4 necessarily compelling efficiency improvements**  **5 in the VFD.**  **6 That doesn't necessarily have to**  **7 happen, and it doesn't specifically have to**  **8 come down to, is the VFD efficient enough to**  **9 get to it's really more about using an**  **10 element of the metric that recognizes the**  **11 variable load component. It's not so much is**  **12 the VFD in itself efficient enough.**  **13 Does that help address your**  **14 question, or is it**  **15 MS. PETRILLO GROH: A little bit.**  **16 Laura Petrillo, AHRI. It is not that you**  **17 know, I don't think the concern on the VFD**  **18 side is that you're driving, you know, the**  **19 increased system efficiency of that product.**  **20 I think it's that you still would be required**  **21 to have a test procedure for a not covered**  **22 for a product that is not covered to get the** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 what you've defined as "pump metrics."**  **2 MR. ADIN: I think that's**  **3 something we still have to discuss. You don't**  **4 necessarily have to do it that way. You could**  **5 come up with a metric that doesn't rely on**  **6 specific measurement of the VFD. It could**  **7 just be a factor that you include that takes**  **8 into account that variable load application.**  **9 MS. PETRILLO GROH: Okay. So**  **10 there are other scenarios where you are able**  **11 to do something similar to what you've just**  **12 described, and end up with a product that you**  **13 can test and enforce regulations on?**  **14 MR. ADIN: Oh, yes. And I think,**  **15 you know, it may be in the end that it's**  **16 simply too burdensome to consider every single**  **17 possible combination of pump, motor, VSD.**  **18 And, really, it's just what you're talking**  **19 about is you're talking about pump plus motor**  **20 or pump plus motor plus VFD, and the only**  **21 difference that you're doing in the**  **22 calculation is, does this thing have a VFD or** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 not?**  **2 And there is some standard way of**  **3 accounting for that variable load part of it.**  **4 It's not a test and a different, you know,**  **5 exact rating for every single VFD that could**  **6 possibly be used. That's, you know, one**  **7 possible way of simplifying this, to get that**  **8 VFD versus no VFD, to recognize that part of**  **9 the energy savings. Does that make sense? In**  **10 a more simplified, less burdensome way.**  **11 MS. PETRILLO GROH: Maybe as we**  **12 keep discussing the test procedure it will**  **13 become more clear.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.**  **15 Charlie, and then Louis, and then**  **16 Steve. Thanks for being patient.**  **17 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **18 Cappellino, ITT. So the question I guess**  **19 before was what kind of behavior you're trying**  **20 to drive. And I think you said that giving**  **21 the consumer or the customer more information**  **22 to make a good energy decision was one of the** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 objectives.**  **2 So is what you're proposing really**  **3 potentially more of a labeling scheme? In**  **4 other words, if I have Choice A, which is**  **5 fixed speed pump, and Choice B, which is**  **6 variable speed driven pump, and now I have an**  **7 energy index or something where I can compare**  **8 A and B, all I'm doing is providing better**  **9 information for the person to make a**  **10 purchasing decision, or are you trying to**  **11 regulate the actual levels of those**  **12 combinations? Because to me those are two**  **13 different things.**  **14 To me, the analogy would be, like**  **15 they did with automotive products, you know,**  **16 they had the label "miles per gallon," and**  **17 that made the customer able to make a good**  **18 energy choice, right, that's one step that you**  **19 can take, and you could regulate that, saying,**  **20 "Hey, you've got to provide enough information**  **21 for an informed decision to be made."**  **22 The second piece of that could be** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 setting different levels for those choices.**  **2 And I'm trying to understand what your goal is**  **3 in that context, because it's not clear to me.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.**  **5 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, I think,**  **6 you know, at the end of the day we still want**  **7 to be able to set an efficiency standard for**  **8 pumps, generally. So we still want to be able**  **9 to compel the overall pump market to get more**  **10 efficient. We still want to be able to**  **11 recognize the efficiency difference between**  **12 any given two pumps in the same class. And so**  **13 that element should still be there.**  **14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Bare pump?**  **15 MR. ADIN: Ultimately, where**  **16 you're talking about is a difference in bare**  **17 pump efficiency, because if you're assuming a**  **18 value for the motor, and then for the VFD**  **19 versus pump motor combination, you are just**  **20 adding some kind of factoring element. Then,**  **21 yes, at the end of the day, you're still back**  **22 to just differences in bare pump efficiency.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 So you're still comparing pumps**  **2 within the same configuration, and you can see**  **3 efficiency differences, which ultimately comes**  **4 back to bare pump efficiency, that difference,**  **5 again, if the other values are assumed.**  **6 The VFD component recognizes the**  **7 energy savings part of the VFD system versus**  **8 not. So does that provide a little bit more**  **9 clarification?**  **10 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie.**  **11 So the VFD part, again, is really more I**  **12 look at that as more of providing information**  **13 to the customer to make a decision.**  **14 MR. ADIN: Ultimately, yes,**  **15 because we are not trying to make the VFD more**  **16 efficient.**  **17 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right.**  **18 MR. ADIN: Right.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.**  **20 MR. STARR: So I can probably help**  **21 out, Charles, how that all works. Once they**  **22 set a federal standard, then you can start** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 have other standards that will go off at**  **2 like EnergyStar, you can have utility rebate**  **3 programs that encourage the use of VFDs, and**  **4 so there is a whole bunch of other things that**  **5 once they have a standard it can be a**  **6 springboard. It basically provides the floor,**  **7 and then you can set standards a little bit**  **8 higher and maybe at the table, that you get a**  **9 certain amount of money. So that's a little**  **10 bit of how the mechanism it's probably what**  **11 their intention is.**  **12 As far as what I want to talk**  **13 about a little bit is the idea of the VFD.**  **14 And it doesn't really need to be the VFD; it**  **15 can be a variable speed drive. And so it**  **16 would be my the flow times the head times**  **17 divided by 3916, the efficiency of the pump,**  **18 gets you the power use. You never actually**  **19 have to measure current to determine what the**  **20 energy usage is.**  **21 So, in theory, if they knew what**  **22 the system curve is that they are testing this** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 against, it could all be done by calculation,**  **2 and actually zero testing done.**  **3 I don't know how practical that is**  **4 in the world real world of pumps, but in**  **5 theory I think that's what they're trying to**  **6 get at. And so I don't know if that is**  **7 realistic or not, but if it was that's what**  **8 they are trying to get at.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, I dropped**  **10 Mark out of the queue. Yes.**  **11 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel.**  **12 You've heard the comments from Charlie,**  **13 really, but, I mean, just clarifying this**  **14 that the DOE would have to give us a nominal**  **15 efficiency for the drive that we would use**  **16 because it's a non regulated product. And all**  **17 AHRI has is a testing standard right now that**  **18 all the manufacturers are going to be**  **19 complying with. That was the main points I**  **20 was going to be making, so I think I mean,**  **21 the accuracy of that but if they are**  **22 telling it to us, Al, then it's set and we're** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 all using the same number.**  **2 But I agree, how accurate is it?**  **3 Does it truly reflect energy efficiency, or**  **4 it's pretty wide open?**  **5 MR. POWERS: I think also to help,**  **6 too, I think, Lucas, eventually in time, I**  **7 believe, right now we have certain motors that**  **8 are under the DOE, like submersible deep**  **9 well submersible motors are not, I don't**  **10 believe, and circulators probably not, and**  **11 there may be others, so we just have to look**  **12 at how we want to do that, because what will**  **13 happen we do have a standard and we don't**  **14 have it for the others, but it would be good**  **15 to look at it.**  **16 But, remember, motors that are**  **17 fluid filled motors, right, that several of us**  **18 make and all, whether it's oil, coal, or**  **19 water, can vary that, right? But what's**  **20 interesting here is also, going back to what**  **21 Charlie is what we're trying to drive,**  **22 right? And I'm not you know, I'm more** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 inclined to say, you know, are we really going**  **2 to change the buying process of customers with**  **3 this in some cases, you know?**  **4 MR. ADIN: Are you asking about in**  **5 the VFD versus**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Just to clarify,**  **7 that was Chuck that was just speaking. Now**  **8 Lucas Adin.**  **9 MR. ADIN: Thanks, Doug. Sorry**  **10 about that.**  **11 MR. POWERS: What I mean is on**  **12 when we do a study, Lucas, to look at a**  **13 particular product, right, the first thing we**  **14 do is we whatever version you have today,**  **15 the customer, whatever, you go out and you**  **16 work with them and you talk to them, like**  **17 we'll go to Water and say, "Hey, for these**  **18 kind of pumps, what are your flows and heads?"**  **19 Right?**  **20 So we sit there and we try to**  **21 analyze, so, okay, we're going to lay out a**  **22 line, this is what it needs to be. ANSI has** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 things, API has things, et cetera. But in**  **2 these products here, the other thing that's**  **3 interesting here, the way I'm thinking is,**  **4 with all the manufacturers who are going to be**  **5 involved here, right, Charlie might have a**  **6 pump that's 101 gallons a minute at the**  **7 specified efficiency.**  **8 My BEP might be 95. You know,**  **9 they're not all right at the given point. So**  **10 I think the MEI calculation, what I read**  **11 through EFP, is all about the efficiency. And**  **12 you keep bringing up power, which is good, but**  **13 the way we measure it is the pump efficiency,**  **14 right? And it was brought up by other people,**  **15 too, so I right? I mean, that's we're**  **16 not worrying about exactly where we hit. It's**  **17 more of, what is our BEP for that given**  **18 product?**  **19 MS. WIDDER: Right. Which is**  **20 still so to the efficiency point and then**  **21 Steve, I'm sorry, just really quick. To the**  **22 efficiency point, I think pumps are definitely** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 characteristics of pumps are communicated**  **2 today mostly based on efficiency. I mean,**  **3 flow and head and all of these other things,**  **4 too. But, I mean, when you see a pump curve,**  **5 there are efficiency curves on there, and it's**  **6 less common to see the power curve that's on**  **7 some pump curves.**  **8 But anyways**  **9 MR. POWERS: I think everyone has**  **10 a power curve on it. We all have power**  **11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. In addition,**  **12 and so**  **13 MR. POWERS: If you didn't, you**  **14 wouldn't know what motor to use, so**  **15 MS. WIDDER: Right. Great, great.**  **16 So then so they all have power curves, and**  **17 so what we're talking about here efficiency**  **18 is still a metric. I don't want to use the**  **19 word "metric." It's still a characteristic**  **20 that can be used in your discussions with your**  **21 customers to help select a pump.**  **22 Before our discussions here about** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 regulating pumps, and measuring them to**  **2 compare to a standard, we are just worried**  **3 about the power curve. We are not worried**  **4 about the efficiency at the points.**  **5 And then the other thing I wanted**  **6 to say just in general, based on a couple of**  **7 comments that were made, is this is just sort**  **8 of some stuff we have been thinking about.**  **9 None of this is set in stone. Everyone here**  **10 has a say. If you have a better idea that's**  **11 completely different from this, we would love**  **12 to hear it.**  **13 So we are just trying to talk**  **14 about some things we have been thinking about,**  **15 trying to balance, again, the goal of saving**  **16 energy and conserving utility and accounting**  **17 for the benefits of control. But, you know,**  **18 this doesn't mean this is not going to**  **19 happen necessarily. That's up to you people**  **20 in this room.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: This is a possible**  **22 construct.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WIDDER: Right. So if you**  **2 have suggestions, those are especially helpful**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock**  **4 has been very patient. Thank you, Steve.**  **5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Sure. Steve**  **6 Rosenstock, EEI. I'm going to try to step**  **7 back a little**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me know**  **9 pardon me. We are due for a break here pretty**  **10 quickly. Steve, go ahead.**  **11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I just want to**  **12 take a step back, just being the codes and**  **13 standards geek that I am, just to give a blank**  **14 page and to give people an idea of, you know,**  **15 with other products, here is what and I**  **16 think one of the best analogies is when ASHRAE**  **17 does new standards for centrifugal chillers,**  **18 big air conditioning units.**  **19 What ASHRAE has done now,**  **20 different products have different some**  **21 products are just full load, EER, et cetera,**  **22 COP at full load. Other products are SEER or** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 an AFUE. They're like a seasonal or an**  **2 annualized value for the product.**  **3 For chillers what they've done is**  **4 the manufacturer has to meet a full load, kWs**  **5 per ton, and a part load, IPLV. They had to**  **6 meet both for different let's say a 200 ton**  **7 chiller has to meet so many kWs per ton at**  **8 full load, so many kW per ton at the IPLV**  **9 metrics, at different weighted loads.**  **10 The manufacturer decides how they**  **11 are going to do it different refrigerant,**  **12 multiple compressors, better compressors,**  **13 variable speed drives, what have you, better**  **14 any type of controls. It's the**  **15 manufacturer's decision, but the metric has**  **16 been designed such that it is really up to the**  **17 manufacturer how to meet that metric, and they**  **18 can choose multiple technologies.**  **19 So I know everyone**  **20 unfortunately, we just talk about variable**  **21 frequency drives because they're such a good**  **22 application, but I'm trying to think out of** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 the box a little bit to say higher level is**  **2 ideally we have to decide do we want a full**  **3 load or a multiple load metric. That's one**  **4 decision to make. And then the idea is,**  **5 should the goal be to design a metric such**  **6 that variable technologies can be used and**  **7 you're not just focused on, well, what if we**  **8 just use a VFD at 50 percent load, and what**  **9 happens if it you know, try to design it**  **10 such that it I'll say it's technology and**  **11 control neutral, where we can.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Avoid some of the**  **14 mess about, oh, variable speed drives don't**  **15 have a federal standard, show how are we going**  **16 to do it? If there's a way to do it, like**  **17 they've done with chillers and other products,**  **18 it's like the manufacturer decides what**  **19 product or technology they are going to use to**  **20 meet that level of efficiency.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **22 MR. POWERS: I agree with Steve.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 I have no problem with what he's saying.**  **2 We're not the chiller; we're just that little**  **3 compressor down in the chiller moving the**  **4 fluid. So if it was the house and we were**  **5 building a house, I get it. But we're you**  **6 know what I'm saying?**  **7 So I like the idea of the overall.**  **8 I think it's good to have an extension of**  **9 thinking of, what else connects to this that**  **10 can help the situation? I'm more worried**  **11 about the impact on how we are going to get**  **12 this across to buyers and to people, so that,**  **13 you know, we do not impact jobs.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Let's take**  **15 a break. It's now 10:45 almost, and let's**  **16 break until 11:00. And when we return from**  **17 break, we're probably going to work until,**  **18 say, 12:30, or something like that, before we**  **19 go to lunch. Okay? So if you need to get a**  **20 quick snack or something, please do so.**  **21 But I thought this last discussion**  **22 was very illuminating, and we can go return** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 to it as we need to when we return from the**  **2 break. See you back here at 11:00.**  **3 (Whereupon, the proceedings in the foregoing**  **4 matter went off the record at 10:45 a.m. and**  **5 went back on the record at 11:05 a.m.)**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, where I'd like**  **7 to go next with this, I thought that**  **8 presentation - I didn't follow all of it, but**  **9 I thought it was quite concrete. I thought**  **10 there was a lot of good information that came**  **11 out of that.**  **12 Could I ask you to turn to Slide**  **13 20 in your packet, please? I just want to**  **14 point to this slide one more time, because**  **15 this is where they started, that the objective**  **16 of the metric is to be objectively measurable,**  **17 allow for a comparability across models, focus**  **18 on energy use or efficiency of the equipment**  **19 being measured, limit test burden, that is, it**  **20 should be kind of practical and doable, and**  **21 inform purchasing decisions.**  **22 I just want to - so, the question** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 looking ahead is I think we - I think we've**  **2 had enough of that for now. But looking**  **3 ahead, would you suggest some additional**  **4 things that DOE should be doing, that HI**  **5 should be doing, some additional discussion**  **6 between now and when we meet next?**  **7 Steve has been having to wait a**  **8 long time. So, he's going to go first.**  **9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, just again**  **10 to follow up, full load or part load or both**  **11 as a high level thought.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Full load, part load**  **13 or both, okay.**  **14 Chuck, please.**  **15 MR. POWERS: Chuck at Flowserve.**  **16 I think it might - it's always**  **17 good to have a benchmark, you know. The more**  **18 we talk here, the more you learn on what ERP**  **19 and others did.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, you've got to**  **21 get that a little closer to you.**  **22 MR. POWERS: Yeah, sorry.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.**  **2 MR. POWERS: So, I'd just like to,**  **3 you know, is there a way we could benchmark**  **4 what ERP is doing and how different is that**  **5 going to be for what we're doing?**  **6 MR. HUBER: I'm not sure if I**  **7 understand the question.**  **8 MR. POWERS: I mean the European -**  **9 EU, sorry.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: EU stuff. If you**  **11 can benchmark what the EU has done with their**  **12 MEI?**  **13 MR. POWERS: Right.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. So, I'm**  **15 hoping right now that - this is exactly what**  **16 I was hoping would happen.**  **17 Mark, do you have additional**  **18 thoughts?**  **19 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, Mark Handzel**  **20 from Xylem.**  **21 I just was saying that I think the**  **22 manufacturers need to caucus further -** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  **2 MR. HANDZEL: - and look at this**  **3 recommendation as well as the EEI/MEI approach**  **4 that we were taking before -**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  **6 MR. HANDZEL: - and knowing that**  **7 now we can only have one approach, how can we**  **8 possibly combine it? Because obviously**  **9 everything we talked about says we have to**  **10 have MEI-type measurement.**  **11 So, I think we need to do some**  **12 more discussion.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Good. And,**  **14 Greg, you just joined us. What we were just**  **15 saying, looking ahead, looking to our next**  **16 meeting, basically I think we've had enough of**  **17 this for today, and are there other research**  **18 items, different construct approaches that you**  **19 would point to the consultant team to look at**  **20 or are there additional thoughts you have to**  **21 prepare us for the next time we have this**  **22 discussion?** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Chuck.**  **2 MR. POWERS: The - I forget the**  **3 name. I'm sorry. She came up to - Laura.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Laura.**  **5 MR. POWERS: She brought up about**  **6 the -**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: The AHRI test**  **8 procedure.**  **9 MR. POWERS: Variable speed and all**  **10 -**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  **12 MR. POWERS: Would it be good for**  **13 DOE to go talk to some of those guys to get**  **14 some views in what they've been dealing with?**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Great.**  **16 Yes, Albert.**  **17 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **18 You know, I agree with Charles. I**  **19 think the DOE needs to go and see if there is**  **20 any published data from various VFD**  **21 manufacturers at these loads that they're**  **22 proposing so that we can be reasonably -** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, there's**  **2 basically no part load VFD data right now.**  **3 So, we're hoping that AHRI 1210 data comes out**  **4 soon.**  **5 MR. HUBER: At this point, though,**  **6 and I want to make this clear, if you do not**  **7 have that data, you either have to test it, a**  **8 manufacturer has to test it, or else you don't**  **9 put this regulation in.**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: So, we will also be**  **11 doing testing of product. So, it's something**  **12 we can get to later. But if we can test it**  **13 and do some sort of allowance, then you don't**  **14 necessarily have to test it.**  **15 So, we don't need to necessarily**  **16 go into that now, but we'll look into that and**  **17 discuss what the opportunities are.**  **18 MR. HUBER: We would have to be**  **19 very comfortable with your testing.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. Sure.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: I see Laura again at**  **22 the microphone.** 

### Page 159

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Laura.**  **2 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Yes, as I**  **3 mentioned before, the - Laura Petrillo, AHRI.**  **4 The certification program, the**  **5 AHRI certification program for VFDs is**  **6 relatively new. And there is no available**  **7 data through the AHRI database, because**  **8 manufacturers who join the certification**  **9 program are required to certify all the**  **10 products within the scope of the certification**  **11 program that are sold within the U.S. and**  **12 Canada. So, that could be quite a bit of data**  **13 to collect.**  **14 That doesn't mean that there**  **15 aren't, you know, products that have rated in**  **16 accordance with the standard. So, they may**  **17 not be certified data, but it could be rated**  **18 data.**  **19 I'm happy to go back and find out**  **20 where the manufacturers are in this process**  **21 and get in touch with Lucas or Alison as**  **22 necessary.** 

### Page 160

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: That would be great.**  **2 Thank you.**  **3 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Sure.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks. Yes,**  **5 Greg.**  **6 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **7 Grundfos.**  **8 I'd like to make just a - maybe**  **9 they already know this, but the consultants**  **10 that as they get the surveys in with some of**  **11 the data from the different model sizes, I**  **12 think one of the surveys ask for 25 percent**  **13 load - 25 percent BEP, 50, 75 and full load**  **14 and 110, to take a look at similar sizes and**  **15 see how this works, this theory works, and if**  **16 it does get the index and the metric that**  **17 you're looking for. So, I think that there is**  **18 probably still some question whether that will**  **19 work properly without that denominator in**  **20 there.**  **21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, just to**  **22 follow up, we did do some of that with the** 

### Page 161

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 data we have now, which isn't that good.**  **2 Which is why we asked for some additional**  **3 data.**  **4 It does seem to work so far, but**  **5 we will definitely follow up with the better**  **6 data that we get.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, that was**  **8 Alison speaking just then. Do we have some -**  **9 Lucas Adin.**  **10 MR. ADIN: Sure, unless there was**  **11 anyone else here who had a specific request**  **12 from DOE, but I think when we - we've heard**  **13 some things that we can do in the interim**  **14 before the next meeting that might help inform**  **15 this discussion a little bit.**  **16 And so, what I'm proposing at**  **17 least for DOE's part, is that we'll try and**  **18 put together a more specific proposal as it**  **19 pertains to testing and metric than what we've**  **20 shown today.**  **21 I think what we've shown today was**  **22 intended to stimulate discussion, at least** 

### Page 162

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 give people an idea about one potential**  **2 framework for approaching this item.**  **3 Obviously, it's given the folks in**  **4 this room something to think about. It's a**  **5 very complicated issue, but we'll come back in**  **6 March with more specifics about how we**  **7 envision this potentially being done taking**  **8 into account some of the things we have talked**  **9 about that and then we'll have some more**  **10 substantive things to deliberate about.**  **11 And, you know, if it comes down to**  **12 just fundamentally much more complex technical**  **13 issues that would be more appropriately dealt**  **14 with outside of this room by a more focused**  **15 committee, maybe that's something that we can**  **16 evaluate at that time.**  **17 But anyway, so the general idea is**  **18 we'll come back to it in March. We'll have a**  **19 more specific set of things to talk about and**  **20 we'll see where we are at that point.**  **21 And so, unless anyone else had any**  **22 concerns they wanted to raise on this issue,** 

### Page 163

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 my thought was that we'd go back to the scope**  **2 discussion and see what we can do in making**  **3 progress towards trying to finalize that list**  **4 before the end of today.**  **5 MR. POWERS: With that being said,**  **6 Lucas, so, will we keep going? I guess. I**  **7 don't know. The question I had, I got a whole**  **8 bunch of feedback from people yesterday and**  **9 last night with actually different companies,**  **10 as well as our own.**  **11 On Slide Six, Alison, if you could**  **12 go to Slide Six for me?**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: You anticipated - I**  **15 was thinking it made sense for us before lunch**  **16 to return to these slides.**  **17 MR. POWERS: Right.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: To start with maybe**  **19 Five or Six, and then consider Three and Four.**  **20 So, that's where we're at.**  **21 MR. POWERS: That's where I'm**  **22 going.** 

### Page 164

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  **2 MR. POWERS: Okay.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: We're in line.**  **4 MR. POWERS: My comment is we call**  **5 it the MNNs. And what the MNN are is the**  **6 marine, Navy and Nuclear. I'd like to put**  **7 that on the exclusion, because I believe that,**  **8 you know, they won't, you know, they don't add**  **9 any value in case somebody - because there's**  **10 water pumping applications there.**  **11 We talked about it as a team last**  **12 night and, you know, maybe we want to put**  **13 those on that list also.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it a separate and**  **15 distinct - that's a usage category. Is it a**  **16 separate and distinct class of pumps?**  **17 MR. POWERS: Well, I mean, if you**  **18 sit there and list API 610, right, and you**  **19 list - and we jumped around. Then you go to**  **20 self-priming pumps. So, you've kind of got**  **21 both.**  **22 I'm saying should we list the** 

### Page 165

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 marine/Navy, or we have separate lines, and**  **2 nuclear, because, you know, my guess is that**  **3 may not apply here.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: I see.**  **5 Greg.**  **6 MR. TOWSLEY: This is more for you,**  **7 Chuck. Can we just say N-stamped pumps?**  **8 MR. POWERS: No, because marine**  **9 aren't N-stamped.**  **10 MR. TOWSLEY: That's true, but -**  **11 MR. POWERS: And Navy isn't**  **12 N-stamped.**  **13 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify -**  **14 MR. POWERS: Not nuclear Navy.**  **15 MR. ADIN: - you're talking about**  **16 like pumps for a shipboard application and**  **17 pumps used in nuclear plants.**  **18 MR. POWERS: Right, and barges and**  **19 stuff like that and marine-related.**  **20 MR. ADIN: Okay.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: I guess the energy**  **22 efficiency advocates would want to hear why** 

### Page 166

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 they shouldn't be covered.**  **2 MR. POWERS: Okay. Well, one, if**  **3 it's on a ship, right, it's the power of the**  **4 ship.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, but it still**  **6 could be a commercial or industrial**  **7 application.**  **8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's a defense**  **9 application. It's still using energy. It is**  **10 still using energy from the ship, not from the**  **11 land, you know. It's diesel.**  **12 MR. POWERS: Yeah, Al suggested how**  **13 they're built. They're completely regulated**  **14 entirely different.**  **15 I mean, if you take a - I'll just**  **16 start with the nuclear, right? The pump**  **17 itself could basically be very similar, right?**  **18 There's certain things will be**  **19 done different like materials. You're going**  **20 to go to a whole level different side of**  **21 materials.**  **22 And then the product itself goes** 

### Page 167

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 into all types of designs from, you know,**  **2 seismic to you name it, right, that will**  **3 change it physically also and whatever.**  **4 And I don't think - I'm just**  **5 speculating that they're pumping water, right?**  **6 Stuff like that, but the volume of it is much**  **7 less, you know.**  **8 The quantity is anywhere close to**  **9 I think what, you know, if you look at that**  **10 one sheet in five, 600,000, whatever they**  **11 were, we're not talking about that.**  **12 And I just don't want, you know,**  **13 companies who are trying to do the right thing**  **14 for the nuclear industry or the Navy, you**  **15 know. There's guidelines these guys have and**  **16 the Navy's big deal is noise. That's the big**  **17 thing there, right, more than anything.**  **18 And then nuclear is another**  **19 ballgame, and then the marine is another. So,**  **20 just - I'm just, you know, serving it up.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Great. So,**  **22 let's add it as a possible - we'll make a** 

### Page 168

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 placeholder for it.**  **2 I guess my comment goes to**  **3 suggesting that the energy efficiency**  **4 advocates who I've worked with for ten, 15**  **5 years, they would want to have aside from the**  **6 notion that it's the utility of it perhaps is**  **7 different, they want to know, I think, what**  **8 the quantity of potential savings that they're**  **9 passing up is, stuff like that.**  **10 Meg.**  **11 MS. WALTNER: Right. I would also**  **12 add that I have some concerns with exempting**  **13 things based on application that are then**  **14 something that's descriptive of the pump**  **15 itself for reasons we've already discussed**  **16 yesterday.**  **17 So, to the extent you can explain**  **18 how these specific pumps are different and**  **19 could be distinguished from other product**  **20 categories that are covered, that would be**  **21 useful from my perspective.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Do you wish** 

### Page 169

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 to follow on, Chuck?**  **2 MR. POWERS: No.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: Al.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, please.**  **6 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **7 I think HI will carry this back**  **8 and we will see if we can, you know, we'll see**  **9 what the differences is in those markets.**  **10 I do know that an N-stamp pump**  **11 will never be used in normal commercial.**  **12 They're just too expensive.**  **13 And probably the Navy would be the**  **14 same thing. I mean, it's just not -**  **15 hydraulically it may be the same, but**  **16 materials are totally different.**  **17 Navy will be super duplex or**  **18 aluminum bronze or something like that, but**  **19 for seawater service.**  **20 It's going to be - you just**  **21 wouldn't use it in normal applications anyway,**  **22 but we'll go back and we'll set up those** 

### Page 170

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 parameters for you and bring them back to the**  **2 next meeting.**  **3 How about that?**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: That's great.**  **5 Lucas Adin.**  **6 MR. ADIN: I don't think I had**  **7 anything to add to that. Thank you for**  **8 clarifying that.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.**  **10 Greg.**  **11 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **12 Grundfos.**  **13 I think to - something that popped**  **14 up in the mind to kind of address what Meg**  **15 asked for, too, something that's not on the**  **16 list and maybe should make sure got on the**  **17 list for clarification is food grade pumps,**  **18 sanitary pumps, centrifugal pumps that are**  **19 specifically designed to meet, I guess you**  **20 would say, safety requirements for products**  **21 for food consumption or for consumption.**  **22 So, are products made to 3-A and** 

### Page 171

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 FDA and dairy requirements as well, too, that**  **2 have specific design requirements to prevent**  **3 bacteria growth?**  **4 They don't necessarily make them**  **5 very efficient, but they have to have them**  **6 that way.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you expand that**  **8 to full screen so that the font is bigger?**  **9 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna.**  **10 Greg, but you're talking about**  **11 pumps that would be considered clean water**  **12 pumps, but -**  **13 MR. TOWSLEY: It's possible that**  **14 they could be used to pump clean water in a**  **15 food plant or beverage plant or something like**  **16 that, but their specific design - design**  **17 things with them that make them unique.**  **18 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna again.**  **19 And are those design**  **20 considerations, does that also mean that those**  **21 pumps are significantly more expensive than**  **22 comparable clean water pumps?** 

### Page 172

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley with**  **2 Grundfos.**  **3 Yes, just in that they're**  **4 typically minimum 304 stainless steel, if not**  **5 316, where some of the water pumps may be just**  **6 iron or bronze, machined rather than cast.**  **7 So, there are a lot of specifics with those**  **8 that they are more expensive, yes.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Al.**  **10 MR. HUBER: HI will carry that also**  **11 back and try to come to the next meeting with**  **12 some specifics.**  **13 Sometimes it's difficult for - we**  **14 know that there are differences. But as we**  **15 sit here, we may not be able to come up with**  **16 them. So, we'll bring that back also.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.**  **18 Louis.**  **19 MR. STARR: And I think someone is**  **20 working on the clean water definition; is that**  **21 right?**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I think Greg** 

### Page 173

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 was going to look for that.**  **2 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.**  **3 I told Lucas this morning there is**  **4 a definition that was done by Europump. We**  **5 would accept that definition for inclusion**  **6 into this.**  **7 It just defines - it's a good**  **8 definition of what clean water is. So, we**  **9 don't have any problem with that.**  **10 Yeah, well, it's in the framework**  **11 document.**  **12 MR. HANDZEL: Do you want us to get**  **13 it out and email it to you so we can have it**  **14 a little bit later or -**  **15 MR. ADIN: Well, is that something**  **16 that we need for today for determining - is**  **17 that kind of a critical, I mean, I'm happy to**  **18 find it and put it up there if we feel like**  **19 that's something that we need in order to make**  **20 a decision on any of this today.**  **21 It sounds like there are a few**  **22 additional items that we still may need to** 

### Page 174

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 resolve before we can make an all-conclusive**  **2 decision on scope, but -**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, I'm going to**  **4 suggest a pathway for us to continue the**  **5 discussion on scope and it might be useful.**  **6 I'd like for us - since we had a**  **7 considerable amount of discussion on Three,**  **8 Four, possible definition of covered product,**  **9 Four re-characterizes general description of**  **10 pump components, and then Five where the**  **11 green, yellow and red scope discussion was,**  **12 and then following after that in Six and**  **13 Seven, exclusions of parameters, to revisit**  **14 that and see how far we can get with them.**  **15 Because I think there may be a way that we can**  **16 get close and create sort of a representation**  **17 or kind of an operating chunk for scope and**  **18 exclude some of these things, perhaps.**  **19 So, the clean water definition I**  **20 think would be useful to have if we could find**  **21 it.**  **22 MS. WIDDER: I'm looking it up.** 

### Page 175

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: I have it on my**  **2 computer.**  **3 MS. WIDDER: Oh, do you have it? I**  **4 think I have it, too.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, here's**  **6 what I'd like to float: We started off on**  **7 Slide Three talking about a possible**  **8 definition of covered product.**  **9 And then a few individuals in the**  **10 room said, well, doesn't it make more sense**  **11 for us to talk about scope first and then**  **12 return to definitions of covered products?**  **13 So, in sequence, we went to the chart, the**  **14 green, yellow, red chart.**  **15 Yesterday, or maybe it was in even**  **16 the first meeting, Tom Eckman said, consistent**  **17 with the way DOE does its rulemakings and**  **18 considers what products are covered and what**  **19 are not, he'd like to suggest that the, as he**  **20 said, everything is guilty until found**  **21 innocent.**  **22 That is, all products, all pumps** 

### Page 176

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 for our purposes here start off being**  **2 considered possible, and then we use our**  **3 consensus rule, our consensus decision rule to**  **4 make decisions about what's excluded.**  **5 I would like to just float that as**  **6 a logic to see if you're comfortable with**  **7 that, because that gets us out of the problem**  **8 of defining the scope.**  **9 I think it's useful to define a**  **10 scope so we have some sense about the duration**  **11 of the negotiation and also so we have a sense**  **12 about what the scope of the test procedure**  **13 would be, stuff like that.**  **14 Hang on. So, and I think if we**  **15 were to adopt that as our fundamental logic,**  **16 that is, we start off on Slide Five, for**  **17 example, with all of these potentially in**  **18 scope as we can make - have decisions about**  **19 what gets excluded, because I think we got**  **20 very close to agreeing yesterday that**  **21 virtually all these items in red should be or**  **22 could be excluded. That was my sense of it** 

### Page 177

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 yesterday.**  **2 And I have consulted with a few**  **3 members of different caucuses and they thought**  **4 that was possible.**  **5 Steve Rosenstock.**  **6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug, this is**  **7 Steve Rosenstock.**  **8 Yeah, I don't mind that approach.**  **9 I just wanted to put out there are there any**  **10 major, I'll say, pump types or categories that**  **11 aren't on the list right now that would need**  **12 to be added? And I didn't know how many there**  **13 would be.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good**  **15 question, and I don't know the answer to that**  **16 question. I thought we - basically, this was**  **17 the bulk of the waterfront.**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. So, your**  **19 question is, is this comprehensive or -**  **20 MR. ROSENSTOCK. Steve Rosenstock,**  **21 EEI.**  **22 I just was wondering is there,** 

### Page 178

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 I'll say, one or two or three major types or**  **2 categories like he was discussing, the marine**  **3 and Navy and nuclear, are there other, I'll**  **4 say, big types or big categories that should**  **5 be on the guilty-as-charged list that should**  **6 be as part of this discussion?**  **7 That's all I wanted to -**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: Other pump types to**  **10 exclude or -**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Other pump types,**  **12 period.**  **13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Other pump types**  **14 to discuss.**  **15 MS. WILLIAM: Okay.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: We don't know.**  **17 So, here's the benefit of doing it**  **18 this way. If, for example, when HI comes back**  **19 at our next meeting or maybe, if we're lucky,**  **20 prior to our next meeting and talks about**  **21 marine, Navy, nuclear and talks about clean**  **22 water food applications, then we could - they** 

### Page 179

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 would - presumably they'd be included in the**  **2 guilty-until-proven-innocent category.**  **3 That is, they'd be included in**  **4 scope, and then we could as a decision-making**  **5 body could say, okay, we've voted and we have**  **6 a consensus. Let's exclude them.**  **7 Yes, Chuck.**  **8 MR. POWERS: Yeah, the only other**  **9 thing that we've got to be careful of, I know**  **10 we're under this because of the government for**  **11 the right reasons, you're not going to be able**  **12 to get any information on some of the Navy**  **13 units and some of the nuclear stuff.**  **14 That's another reason they're**  **15 excluded, because it is very limited, you**  **16 know. I agree on the power thing, but it is**  **17 a nuclear sub that's got certain conditions**  **18 they run under. And they don't go over and**  **19 plug into the local utility when they get back**  **20 to base.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: We can get Lucas to**  **22 go to his former employer.** 

### Page 180

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. ADIN: Yeah, no, I certainly**  **2 don't have any, I mean, I've spent a fair**  **3 amount of time evaluating the quietness and -**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Understood.**  **5 MR. POWERS: I was in that for**  **6 almost 15 years and it's - that million-dollar**  **7 pump is not going to be sold in the water**  **8 industry.**  **9 MR. ADIN: Yeah, your point is well**  **10 taken. They are custom designed. Very custom**  **11 designed.**  **12 MR. POWERS: Yes. And same with**  **13 some of the marine, and same with the nuclear.**  **14 MR. ADIN: Right.**  **15 MR. POWERS: That's my speculation**  **16 and I just think -**  **17 MR. ADIN: So, in principle, I**  **18 don't think we have any objection to what**  **19 we're talking about here.**  **20 I think the question is more about**  **21 how do we establish that carve-out in a way**  **22 that doesn't unintentionally exclude pumps** 

### Page 181

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that otherwise should be included. That's**  **2 all. It's really about how we design it.**  **3 It's not necessarily the principle.**  **4 MR. POWERS: Yeah, right. And all**  **5 my comment is, is, you know, from some of our**  **6 constituents and some of the feedback I got is**  **7 if you had firewater in there, it's out,**  **8 right?**  **9 I mean, it's just trying to follow**  **10 some of the similar principles.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: So, you raising the**  **12 issue of marine, Navy and nuclear, I think, is**  **13 a good illustration of how this logic that I'm**  **14 proposing would work or could work.**  **15 So, what do you think? Do the**  **16 members here present, the negotiators, do you**  **17 think that's a sensible way to proceed?**  **18 Because I think if you do, then we**  **19 can begin to talk about whether all these**  **20 items in red, whether we could exclude them.**  **21 And then we would be narrowing the scope in a**  **22 productive way, and then we can start talking** 

### Page 182

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 about the items in yellow and the items in**  **2 green. Both of them.**  **3 Steve Rosenstock.**  **4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's fine with**  **5 me. We just need up on the screen the latest**  **6 and greatest, that's all.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, we'll get it**  **8 up there.**  **9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's not up there**  **10 right now.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Does anybody object**  **12 to that as kind of our fundamental premise?**  **13 Do I need to take a vote on this? I probably**  **14 do.**  **15 We have a quorum present. We have**  **16 16 members our of 17 present. So, should I**  **17 restate what we're voting on here?**  **18 Once again, two votes - three**  **19 votes derails a consensus, stops consensus.**  **20 What we're confirming is that for the purposes**  **21 of this working group, discussions of scope**  **22 will be considered that everything is in scope** 

### Page 183

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 until this group by their decision-making**  **2 rules by consensus decides to exclude them.**  **3 That gives us time and space, for**  **4 example, to continue considering circulators**  **5 and every other item on this list.**  **6 Okay. I'm about to propose the**  **7 question. Are we ready to do this? All those**  **8 in - yes, Chuck.**  **9 MR. POWERS: Everything on there is**  **10 -**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Everything on that**  **12 list.**  **13 MR. POWERS: It's in.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Is in, yes. And**  **15 then that allows us to include new items that**  **16 come up that presumably will be in, and then**  **17 they will get the full consideration of the**  **18 working group, okay?**  **19 MR. POWERS: With the basis we're**  **20 going to have something done by December.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: We're going to have**  **22 something done by September.** 

### Page 184

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify, Doug, I**  **2 think what you mean is the starting point is**  **3 that they're in and we have to vote to exclude**  **4 them.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: That's exactly what**  **6 I mean.**  **7 MR. ADIN: So -**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: The starting point**  **9 is that they're in.**  **10 MR. ADIN: Right.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: And if anything**  **12 that's not in now could if we uncover**  **13 something that should be in, it can be - we**  **14 presume it would be in, okay?**  **15 So, all those in favor of that**  **16 logic that everything is in until we vote to**  **17 exclude it, raise your hands.**  **18 (Voting.)**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We have**  **20 unanimity surrounding that proposal.**  **21 Congratulations. You've done it again.**  **22 (Applause.)** 

### Page 185

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Now, yesterday we**  **2 had a detailed discussion on these items in**  **3 red. These items that were thought to be**  **4 potentially excluded. And I thought basically**  **5 the thrust of it was that - I don't think as**  **6 we went through them one by one, that any of**  **7 them - I thought basically they all were**  **8 endorsed for exclusion. That's my**  **9 recollection. I see a few heads nodding yes.**  **10 Steve.**  **11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: With everything**  **12 that says, okay - whoops. Just lost it.**  **13 Okay.**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry. Okay.**  **15 I'll do this later.**  **16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The six that say**  **17 "okay," correct?**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, and this one**  **19 you can't read it. It says, no. It says,**  **20 non-clean water pumps and - did we just do**  **21 that? Could we put "clean water" up in the -**  **22 MS. WILLIAMS: We put clean water** 

### Page 186

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 in the parameter slide.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: In the parameter**  **3 slide. That's why it's eliminated there.**  **4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's lined out.**  **5 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, this one, yeah.**  **6 I didn't delete the row.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, what I'm going**  **8 to propose now having discussed this rather**  **9 thoroughly - and let me say this: If we**  **10 exclude individual pumps, then presumably if**  **11 you collectively as a group say that - think**  **12 that was a mistake, then you could reinsert**  **13 them, right?**  **14 The same decision-making mechanism**  **15 could be used. A consensus vote could say,**  **16 well, we made a mistake with axial mixed flow.**  **17 Let's put them back in, okay?**  **18 So, I'm about to propose that this**  **19 list that we consider excluding these items**  **20 and knowing the scope of endeavor here in the**  **21 second meeting noting that both the items in**  **22 green and the items in yellow are there for** 

### Page 187

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 further consideration.**  **2 Meg.**  **3 MS. WALTNER: Yes. So, I think we**  **4 had a thorough discussion of this yesterday,**  **5 but I just wanted to put the caveat on this**  **6 that some of these still need further**  **7 definition.**  **8 In particular, we had a discussion**  **9 yesterday on fire pumps and how we're going to**  **10 define those in the exemption, and also the**  **11 wastewater, sump, slurry and solids handling**  **12 pumps, how specifically do we define those.**  **13 So, I agree in terms of categories**  **14 of what we want to exclude, but just that some**  **15 further work needs to be done clarifying and**  **16 -**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: And how we would**  **18 achieve that. Would we rely on HI to come**  **19 forward with those definitions?**  **20 Mark.**  **21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem.**  **22 I think that sort of takes us back** 

### Page 188

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 to the clean water definition than if -**  **2 because that would - right? That would define**  **3 like wastewater and slurry pumps. Solids**  **4 handling pumps would not be in the scope.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. Okay. And**  **6 the other thing that occurred to me, and I had**  **7 this conversation with a few individuals at**  **8 the break, I'm really getting the sense and**  **9 logic about observing the HI nomenclature and**  **10 trying to do that everywhere possible.**  **11 Is there an HI nomenclature for**  **12 these items in the exclusion list? Five. We**  **13 keep bouncing back and forth. Sorry.**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I have the**  **15 exclusion list up. So, sort of -**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, that right**  **17 there. The items, do those in red - the first**  **18 one seems to have an HI nomenclature or**  **19 designation.**  **20 How about the others? Do they, or**  **21 are they just not listed?**  **22 MS. WILLIAMS: There will be a lot** 

### Page 189

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 of them, right?**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: There is, yeah.**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.**  **4 MR. POWERS: Each one of these**  **5 would have multiple.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, all I'm going to**  **7 suggest is that, and then I'll go to you next,**  **8 Charlie, that if we applied these exclusions**  **9 and follow Meg's idea to make sure that**  **10 they're defined sufficiently, we'll look at**  **11 clean water next, perhaps, that we make sure**  **12 that those HI designations are there listed in**  **13 this table or someplace.**  **14 I saw Charlie next.**  **15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **16 Cappellino.**  **17 I think the HI designation will be**  **18 helpful, but many of the ones that are in red**  **19 there, the HI designation is the same as the**  **20 ones that are in yellow, for example.**  **21 So, I don't think that's going to**  **22 be sufficient in of its own to define, just so** 

### Page 190

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 everybody is clear.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. Okay.**  **3 Louis.**  **4 MR. STARR: So, just to follow up**  **5 with what Meg was going - so, the slurry pumps**  **6 was one, but the actually more important ones**  **7 are the fire pumps.**  **8 And so, there's a discussion**  **9 around the certification NFPA to see that that**  **10 would adequately - those requirements do meet**  **11 that NFPA 20, and then the certification. So,**  **12 just to prevent definitions of fire pumps.**  **13 And so, that's two things, DOE and**  **14 I would say HI, to look at that.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, and I wasn't**  **16 sure about the sequence here, but presumably**  **17 the exclusions list - is that it?**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, that is the**  **19 exclusions list. I have it up because there's**  **20 notes about what still needs to be done on**  **21 them.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Presumably the** 

### Page 191

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 exclusions list amplifies and informs these**  **2 items in red, right?**  **3 Okay. Now, how should we do this?**  **4 Are we ready to go one by one, or look at**  **5 these collectively and say we want to exclude**  **6 them pending additional definitions?**  **7 Joanna.**  **8 MS. MAUER: Joanna Maurer.**  **9 I'm just wondering if we could**  **10 maybe hold off on fire pumps. Again, you**  **11 know, we don't have any problem with the**  **12 concept, but, you know, I think this question**  **13 of whether a fire pump is actually certified**  **14 to the NFPA specification or not I think is a**  **15 pretty important issue.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Al.**  **17 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **18 I think I explained it pretty well**  **19 yesterday. And I'll explain it one more time,**  **20 and then you need to make a decision about how**  **21 you want to define it, okay, so that you feel**  **22 comfortable.** 

### Page 192

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 All these pumps are manufactured**  **2 in accordance with NFPA 20. There are**  **3 certifications that are behind those; UL and**  **4 FM - UL or FM, or both. So, you can use any**  **5 of those to define a fire pump.**  **6 So, if you, you know, if you want**  **7 to put all that in there, fine. If you only**  **8 want to put NFPA 20, fine. Whatever you want**  **9 to put, that will define a fire pump.**  **10 I don't see any reason to continue**  **11 to belabor this issue.**  **12 MS. MAUER: So, this is Joanna.**  **13 So, I think what you explained to**  **14 us yesterday which was helpful, was that when**  **15 you certify a pump to the NFPA specification,**  **16 that that implies significant additional cost.**  **17 MR. HUBER: It absolutely does.**  **18 It's very significant.**  **19 MS. MAUER: So, if to be considered**  **20 a fire pump you had to certify to NFPA, I**  **21 wouldn't have any concerns.**  **22 If we're instead defining fire** 

### Page 193

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 pumps as just meeting the NFPA specification**  **2 and I think you said yesterday that in that**  **3 case it doesn't imply additional costs -**  **4 MR. HUBER: That is correct.**  **5 MS. MAUER: - then I think we're,**  **6 you know, what prevents someone from using a**  **7 fire pump in a non-fire pump application, I**  **8 think that's the question.**  **9 MR. HANDZEL: So, if we change it**  **10 to say NFPA certified fire pumps -**  **11 MR. HUBER: Then you're okay.**  **12 MR. HANDZEL: Then you're okay.**  **13 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna.**  **14 I think -**  **15 MR. HUBER: We're okay. Let's just**  **16 do that. That's what we've got to do is just**  **17 do that.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, the new**  **19 language, Al or Mark -**  **20 MR. HUBER: NFPA 20, in that just**  **21 say it is certified to NFPA 20 whether UL or**  **22 FM, because it could be one or the other or** 

### Page 194

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 both.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. So,**  **3 that closes - that makes that clear. Okay.**  **4 Then, are you comfortable with fire pumps**  **5 being excluded, yes?**  **6 Anybody else have questions on**  **7 fire pumps?**  **8 MR. ADIN: Just a question, Doug.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  **10 MR. ADIN: Just one quick question.**  **11 This is Lucas Adin, DOE.**  **12 Does it matter - do we have to**  **13 specify certifying bodies? I mean, it's just**  **14 certified to that standard, right?**  **15 MR. HUBER: You don't have to, but**  **16 those are the only two that do.**  **17 MR. ADIN: Yeah, but I just think**  **18 for, you know, it's the principle of it being**  **19 certified.**  **20 And I guess the other question I**  **21 had is whether there were certain physical**  **22 characteristics of a pump that have to be in** 

### Page 195

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 place for it to meet that certification. 2 Could you just specify in the**  **3 definition a pump that has these things? So 4 -**  **5 MR. HUBER: We covered that 6 yesterday, Lucas.**  **7 MR. ADIN: Yes. 8 MR. HUBER: It is possible that a**  **9 pump could meet those conditions. 10 MR. ADIN: Right.**  **11 MR. HUBER: It's possible. 12 MR. ADIN: Okay. I was just**  **13 refreshing my memory. 14 MR. HUBER: So, the only way you**  **15 can lock it out is what they're saying here. 16 It's got to be certified by the certifying**  **17 bodies. 18 MR. ADIN: And that certification**  **19 has a significant cost associated with it. 20 MR. HUBER: Oh, yes. Absolutely a**  **21 significant cost. 22 MR. ADIN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### Page 196

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: So, that exchange**  **2 was between Al and Lucas and that was complete**  **3 at that point.**  **4 I have another question from**  **5 Arnold Sdano. For pumps with a variable**  **6 number of stages, does the power limit of 200**  **7 horsepower apply to the per stage power?**  **8 Al Huber is shaking his head no.**  **9 Do you want to elaborate on that, Al?**  **10 MR. HUBER: It's the overall power.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: The overall power.**  **12 MR. HUBER: So, if you've got one**  **13 stage or two - if you go one stage and let's**  **14 say you're at 150, you go two stages and**  **15 you're over 200, then according to the rule so**  **16 far according to the parameters we've set, it**  **17 would not be - it would not be subject to the**  **18 regulation.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay.**  **20 MR. HUBER: Is that not correct? I**  **21 mean, I don't want to misstate something here,**  **22 but I think that's to the parameters that we** 

### Page 197

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 have.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison.**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't - in the EU,**  **4 there's the - they are tested based on a**  **5 certain number of stages.**  **6 Is that not the number of stages**  **7 that the power applies to?**  **8 MR. HUBER: No, but his question**  **9 was if it's more than one stage and it's going**  **10 over the 200 horsepower, then it is no longer**  **11 regulated.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me read it**  **13 again. For pumps with a variable number of**  **14 stages, does the power limit of 200 horsepower**  **15 apply to the per stage power?**  **16 MR. HUBER: No.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: And Al Huber says no**  **18 again.**  **19 Greg.**  **20 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.**  **21 Our understanding is that that is**  **22 your input shaft horsepower to the pump. So,** 

### Page 198

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 it will apply to all stages, not on a per**  **2 stage basis.**  **3 MR. HUBER: That is correct.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: I see several**  **5 manufacturing industry reps shaking their**  **6 heads yes in agreement with that, okay.**  **7 MR. POWERS: Yeah, I think - this**  **8 is Chuck, you know, if you go back to the bare**  **9 pump thing, you know, what makes that up?**  **10 You're getting a drive that will drive the**  **11 unit. If that unit is over 200, you know,**  **12 it's out of scope.**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, this is**  **14 Alison. So, I want to clarify sort of a**  **15 technicality on that.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Before you do, the**  **17 last speaker was Chuck. Now, Alison.**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: So, and we haven't**  **19 actually discussed this yet what number of**  **20 stages would be required to comply for**  **21 multistage pumps. But I would assume that if,**  **22 you know, it's three or nine stages depending** 

### Page 199

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 on what it is that even if you're at a higher**  **2 number of stages that was excluded, the pump**  **3 itself would still have to meet the standard**  **4 based on the number of stages that was being**  **5 tested.**  **6 MR. HUBER: No.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **9 MR. HUBER: Well, it would be - the**  **10 pump would not be excluded if you tested it at**  **11 a single stage or whatever you test it to and**  **12 that's below shaft horsepower of 200. So, the**  **13 pump would be included in the regulation.**  **14 But we're not going to be testing**  **15 it to nine stages or any of the other stages.**  **16 So, there's not going to be an MEI for those,**  **17 right? Is that correct?**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.**  **19 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.**  **20 In the European standard, we**  **21 specified the number of stages that were to be**  **22 tested. And that was nine stages or whatever** 

### Page 200

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 they said.**  **2 So, that pump as a nine-stage pump**  **3 was to be tested as a unit. You don't want to**  **4 have just one stage or - because there's**  **5 losses that -**  **6 MR. HUBER: Right. I understand**  **7 that.**  **8 (Speaking off mic.)**  **9 MR. CASE: Applies to -**  **10 MR. HUBER: So, if a nine-stage**  **11 pump is over 200 horsepower, it is not**  **12 included, correct?**  **13 MR. CASE: Correct.**  **14 MR. HUBER: Thank you.**  **15 MR. CASE: All right. But we do**  **16 specify the number of stages that it had to be**  **17 tested with.**  **18 MR. HUBER: Right.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: I would like to**  **20 return to the red items which are the - is**  **21 this on? Yes. And I want to ask you - I'm**  **22 going to read through these, make sure that -** 

### Page 201

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 see if anybody wants to have additional**  **2 discussion on any of these pump types**  **3 considering that in a moment I'm going to ask**  **4 if we can exclude them all, the first one is**  **5 axial mixed flow, the second is positive**  **6 displacement.**  **7 We've removed non-clean water**  **8 pumps. That's in a parameter slide.**  **9 Wastewater, sump, slurry, solids handling**  **10 pumps, API 610 and ANSI chemical process**  **11 pumps, fire pumps, self-priming pumps.**  **12 We've included marine, Navy,**  **13 nuclear pumps, sanitary pumps on this list,**  **14 but I'm not sure what - we haven't discussed**  **15 those yet. So, we're not going to exclude**  **16 those yet.**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: I have question**  **18 marks on them.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Great. Thank**  **20 you. Question marks. That's still to be**  **21 refined.**  **22 Pumps outside certain parameters** 

### Page 202

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 or power flow head temperature, what is that?**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: That's a parameter**  **3 discussion. So, I don't think you want to**  **4 include that in there.**  **5 MR . BROOKMAN: We had a request**  **6 from the legal team to cover a few things here**  **7 at the outset, so that's what we're going to**  **8 do next. Betsy Kohl.**  **9 MS. KOHL: Thank you. Betsy Kohl**  **10 from DOE GC. We just wanted to say a couple**  **11 of things about two of the legal issues that**  **12 have been percolating around. The first one**  **13 is the preemption issue. I'm looking at Gary,**  **14 but he's --**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Let her do it,**  **16 Gary. You come over here to listen. She's**  **17 going to talk about preemption --**  **18 MS. KOHL: It's just two words,**  **19 and I figured you would want to hear it. But,**  **20 anyhow, it's become a complicated issue that's**  **21 going to require some additional discussion**  **22 with folks who are not in this room. But we** 

### Page 203

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 recognize that, you know, we want to convey**  **2 something to this group before the next**  **3 meeting, so, recognizing that there are some**  **4 clients and privileged issues intended in the**  **5 discussions that will take place, we'll figure**  **6 out an appropriate way to convey what we**  **7 discussed before the next meeting.**  **8 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is**  **9 Gary, California. Thank you.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: That will be posted**  **11 on SharePoint or something?**  **12 MS. KOHL: I'm not sure, not sure.**  **13 That's --**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay.**  **15 MS. KOHL: -- yet another issue to**  **16 figure out. The other legal issue that we've**  **17 been talking about is the manufacturer as**  **18 distributor issue, a distributor as**  **19 manufacturer issue. Sorry. The legal**  **20 framework we laid out for you yesterday,**  **21 right? The definition in EPCA of manufacture**  **22 includes assembly. And we have some** 

### Page 204

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 information about the universe of your**  **2 distributors that are out there. We've talked**  **3 a little bit about it here. But recognizing**  **4 that the Department isn't really interested in**  **5 two guys with a screwdriver, as we call it, it**  **6 would be helpful for us to understand a little**  **7 bit more about your distributors and how they**  **8 operate. So is there a definitive number of**  **9 them out there? Are they just kind of passing**  **10 through what you give them, or are they**  **11 applying some sort of engineering expertise?**  **12 Is it mass assembly, or are they mostly kind**  **13 of individualized systems that the**  **14 distributors are putting together? That kind**  **15 of information would allow us to determine who**  **16 constitutes a manufacturer under the**  **17 definition that's set forth in the statute.**  **18 And we're also interested in**  **19 hearing from all of you about the**  **20 ramifications of including or not including**  **21 distributors as manufacturers as far as**  **22 external programs are concerned, such as** 

### Page 205

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 certification under Energy Star, that sort of**  **2 thing.**  **3 So if there's information that you**  **4 guys want to share at an appropriate point**  **5 today or, you know, before the next meeting,**  **6 that would be helpful.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. Yes,**  **8 Greg?**  **9 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **10 Grundfos. I think that might have been a**  **11 question that was covered maybe during some of**  **12 the interviews this summer, so you may check**  **13 in with some of the information --**  **14 MS. KOHL: Yes, yes, we know we**  **15 have some of it. We just kind of are**  **16 interested in kind of hearing some input**  **17 today, but we definitely, we know our folks**  **18 have some of that information.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?**  **20 MR. POWERS: Yes, if you'd like, I**  **21 could share a little bit from our experience.**  **22 The third-party channels we call it, right,** 

### Page 206

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 are very broad. You can have a representative**  **2 that sits in an office that sells your**  **3 products, doesn't have a screwdriver, doesn't**  **4 have a shop, doesn't have nothing, but he**  **5 would sub-out to another guy down the street**  **6 that does service work or assembly, whatever.**  **7 Their role is very small, but there's quite a**  **8 few of them.**  **9 Then there's the full-range guys**  **10 that are several hundred million dollar sizes.**  **11 They have shops and warehouses and facilities**  **12 as good as any of the pump manufacturers, but**  **13 the unique discipline is some of them**  **14 specialize in a certain area, which means, for**  **15 them and for us to make a lot of sense, a**  **16 particular customer might want not just a**  **17 pump. They might want membranes, and they**  **18 might want filter systems, screen wash,**  **19 whatever. And they'll carry all those**  **20 products, they'll service all those products**  **21 so they're more useful to that customer.**  **22 Some of them do package systems** 

### Page 207

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that won't even fit in this room, okay? These**  **2 are large-scale -- and when I'm talking a few**  **3 of these guys, there's quite a few big ones**  **4 out there. And these packages might use a**  **5 bare pump. They'll do all the engineering,**  **6 they'll do all the layouts, whatever.**  **7 Some of them, for example, will do**  **8 the snow-making systems, right? They'll lay**  **9 out the entire mountain. They'll do all the**  **10 pipes. They do the pumping stations. They do**  **11 everything, including fire hydrants during the**  **12 summer which helps the state parks. I'm using**  **13 an example. It depends on what area they're**  **14 in and how big they are.**  **15 Some of these guys have a couple**  **16 hundred salesmen, all right? And they have**  **17 square footages of shops and all their pretty**  **18 dynamic machine tool sets and all that. So**  **19 each of the companies, in my opinion, will**  **20 sign them up, set them up based on their**  **21 expertise on what area they're filling or what**  **22 they're carrying. And a lot of them will** 

### Page 208

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 carry multiple products pump-wise. They won't**  **2 have just one pump guy. They'll have**  **3 different ones based on the type of product it**  **4 is.**  **5 So they can be, they can be pretty**  **6 significant. It's not every one of them, but**  **7 I'd say a pretty good share of them.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?**  **9 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **10 Grundfos. I think, while there are some that**  **11 big, but, more commonly, they're probably much**  **12 smaller value-added distributors that can be**  **13 10 to 30 people total that maybe only 10 to 40**  **14 million, and they don't do some of the**  **15 complexity but they might, as I call them,**  **16 value-added distributor where they'll take a**  **17 liquid end or pump end, add their own motor,**  **18 trim the impeller, add their own mechanical**  **19 seal, maybe add a baseplate or a few other**  **20 things. So not without the complexity of big**  **21 systems, but probably the majority of them are**  **22 more of that size.** 

### Page 209

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark?**  **2 MR. HANDZEL: Xylem's distributors**  **3 would be more along the lines of what Greg**  **4 just described. We do have a couple of guys**  **5 like Chuck described, you know, the packagers**  **6 that will put, basically, a mechanical room**  **7 for a building on a skid, boiler, chiller,**  **8 pumps, heat exchangers, all the trim and**  **9 everything necessary. But, mostly, we lean**  **10 toward the type of guy that Greg just**  **11 described. And they all typically buy resell.**  **12 They're under contract with us, so they may**  **13 only be -- in our case, it's typically they**  **14 only carry our products. They wouldn't carry**  **15 any other pump manufacturers' products.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please, Bob?**  **17 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from**  **18 TACO. I would have to say that our**  **19 distribution probably very much mirrors the**  **20 distribution of Xylem, which is Mark's**  **21 company. We have one or two that have sales**  **22 probably in the range of a couple hundred** 

### Page 210

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 million dollars, but the vast majority of them**  **2 are probably anywhere from a three-man shop to**  **3 a 15-man shop.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, thank you.**  **5 Dan?**  **6 MR. COHEN: Dan Cohen. So a**  **7 couple of questions. So when you say they're**  **8 under contract to you, exclusively? So in**  **9 other words, they are essentially taking**  **10 product from you and then retooling it to do**  **11 whatever is being specced out by the**  **12 particular customer?**  **13 MR. HANDZEL: So they have a**  **14 distribution agreement that we assign in our**  **15 primary geographic area, and they are the only**  **16 person we assign in that primary geographic.**  **17 So I, essentially, my company does not have**  **18 salespeople. We sell through independent**  **19 manufacturer representatives.**  **20 MR. COHEN: Okay. But it could be**  **21 the same company?**  **22 MR. HANDZEL: No, they'd never be** 

### Page 211

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 the same company. We compete head-to-head, so**  **2 our distributors battle in the local**  **3 territories.**  **4 MR. COHEN: And that's because you**  **5 don't sell directly to --**  **6 MR. HANDZEL: That's correct.**  **7 MR. COHEN: -- any customer? It's**  **8 always going through --**  **9 MR. HANDZEL: The only customer we**  **10 sell direct to would be an OEM.**  **11 MR. COHEN: An OEM.**  **12 MR. HANDZEL: Who's buying it,**  **13 putting our product into something that**  **14 they're building.**  **15 MR. COHEN: And when you are**  **16 selling that product to the distributor, which**  **17 we'll call the distributor just for a moment**  **18 --**  **19 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, which is what**  **20 he is because he's buy resell. We have some**  **21 parts of our business that are commission, so**  **22 that's why there are representatives,** 

### Page 212

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 distributors, you know.**  **2 MR. COHEN: Unfortunately, that's**  **3 sort of a bad word for us because we regulate**  **4 the manufacture of the product, not the**  **5 distribution of the product. So that doesn't**  **6 fit into our world. But to the extent that**  **7 they're manufacturing something, then they're**  **8 subject to our regulation, right?**  **9 MR. HANDZEL: Exactly. And so all**  **10 these discussions that we had, you know, they**  **11 are still buying our bare pumps, you know.**  **12 And sometimes they buy it with the driver,**  **13 sometimes with the controls, but other times**  **14 they just buy the bare pump and they supply**  **15 the other items.**  **16 MR. COHEN: And is there in any**  **17 situation in which a company like that is just**  **18 moving boxes that they get, they get a box**  **19 from you and --**  **20 MR. HANDZEL: No, no, no. A large**  **21 part of our product line, it's like a**  **22 circulator. It's a pump in a box, so the** 

### Page 213

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 motor is with the pump. They buy it from us**  **2 in the box, and they resell it in the box.**  **3 They never even open it.**  **4 MR. COHEN: It's pure**  **5 distribution.**  **6 MR. HANDZEL: That's right. But**  **7 when we get into the larger pumps that have**  **8 been the primary focus of what the Hydraulic**  **9 Institute recommendation, they could buy**  **10 complete from us or that's where they could**  **11 buy a bare pump and modify it themselves.**  **12 MR. COHEN: And they are doing the**  **13 specifications on that, or they're getting it**  **14 from you?**  **15 MR. HANDZEL: Well . . .**  **16 MR. POWERS: What do you mean by**  **17 specs?**  **18 MR. COHEN: So in other words,**  **19 they're trying to, some customer needs a**  **20 particular --**  **21 MR. HANDZEL: We tell them what**  **22 motor will fit on that pump.** 

### Page 214

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. COHEN: All right.**  **2 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So they know**  **3 what NEMA frame size they have to buy to fit**  **4 on that pump, so it's to our specifications.**  **5 MR. POWERS: But to help clarify a**  **6 little bit, too, we have all levels of that,**  **7 also. We have guys just like that, pump in a**  **8 box, but some, you know, I'll say it again,**  **9 just to give you an idea, we have 61**  **10 distributors. We have --**  **11 MR. HANDZEL: Worldwide or --**  **12 MR. POWERS: No, domestically.**  **13 MR. HANDZEL: Domestically.**  **14 MR. POWERS: Worldwide is like**  **15 500. Domestically, you know, 61 distributors,**  **16 and I'll explain that in a second. Then we**  **17 have representatives, and rep-wise, it's about**  **18 40 or 50. And then we have niche OEM guys**  **19 that specialize calling on somebody who's**  **20 putting that, you know, air system together or**  **21 something like that to use in the same kind of**  **22 pump all the time that goes into that system,** 

### Page 215

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 so to speak. 2 So we sell a lot of bare pumps.**  **3 They have their own application people. What 4 we try to do is we say, you know, some of the**  **5 products, probably like these guys, we sign 6 them up and we say they're territorial, it's**  **7 certain markets. So we then use their 8 salesmen that call directly on customers, and**  **9 we'll go in and it's kind of backwards and 10 forwards. On the West Coast, we might have a**  **11 user that calls on a water plant, but, in 12 Kansas City, a distributor might call water**  **13 plants. It depends on their strength and who 14 they are and how good they are and all that.** **15 But these distributors are self 16 sufficient. They do their own applications,**  **17 they read their own spec, they have their own 18 terms and conditions. We have a separate set**  **19 of terms and conditions we give them because 20 we're shipping them a bare pump, full**  **21 diameter, you know, to a certain kind of code 22 that they order from us. Some are stainless,** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 some are duplex, some might be cast iron,**  **2 whatever, right? Even in the smaller**  **3 standardized pumps, right? And then they'll**  **4 take that and they'll do whatever they need to**  **5 do with it to serve that market.**  **6 And to your point, I might have a**  **7 distributor that is also his distributor**  **8 because maybe I don't compete with them on**  **9 certain products, right? There is some of**  **10 that. But a core competitor, like maybe, like**  **11 ITT Goulds, we're very careful, four or five**  **12 big guys, we won't have any. But what's**  **13 interesting there then, if I have 50, he also**  **14 has a different 50, right? Or sixty-one. So**  **15 it goes out. And if I go into a typical**  **16 distributor, it depends what the market is,**  **17 they could have 15 to 20 product lines, right?**  **18 Because they're trying to serve a lot of,**  **19 they'll have valves, pumps. They'll have**  **20 motors. They'll have all this stuff, right?**  **21 And they're serving a niche, you know,**  **22 category because we'd have to put people on** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 the street in that town with service, and**  **2 that's the only thing they bring to the table**  **3 is when John Doe calls up he doesn't want to**  **4 wait three days for us to leave New York and**  **5 go out to Kansas and service it. There's a**  **6 guy in Kansas City right down the street that**  **7 will go service that thing.**  **8 MR. COHEN: So we don't want to**  **9 get bogged down on this conversation today**  **10 because there are other things to talk about.**  **11 Maybe this is something we can set up a**  **12 separate workgroup to kind of drill down on**  **13 because what we really need to get at is how**  **14 that is set up so that we can define precisely**  **15 who is manufacturing for purposes of this**  **16 statute, as opposed to just simply, you know,**  **17 moving products around and not really doing**  **18 anything.**  **19 MR. POWERS: Al has talked about**  **20 it, and we have concerns over that. We're**  **21 listening to what you want to do, how we're**  **22 going to -- because when we look at your** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 board, we're thinking through the full food**  **2 chain, you know, the whole process, the whole**  **3 lineage. We're not just looking at what we're**  **4 going to deal with and how does this get to**  **5 the market.**  **6 Again, some of the things you**  **7 could do, and I don't know, is if you say this**  **8 pump gets a, I'll use the dumb example, CE**  **9 stamp like in Europe, right? If it gets a DOE**  **10 stamp that says, boom, we've certified this**  **11 type of product pump for whatever. Now, where**  **12 it ends up, it doesn't matter because it has**  **13 to have that stamp. So if one of these guys**  **14 are carrying a non-certified pump and it**  **15 doesn't have that stamp, they can't go to the**  **16 market with it, so it carries through. It**  **17 doesn't just, who does the packaging, so to**  **18 speak.**  **19 MR. COHEN: Okay, thank you.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?**  **21 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **22 Grundfos. Just one quick thing, Dan, a** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 clarification. You asked who specifies what's**  **2 provided sometimes. As they said, sometimes**  **3 we'll provide just the bare pump to them, and,**  **4 at that point, their customer is specifying to**  **5 the distributor what they need: do they need**  **6 the pump painted blue or red or trimmed to**  **7 what diameter impeller, what mechanical seal.**  **8 So at that point, they're specifying, the**  **9 discussions on the specification of the pump**  **10 needs by the customer is between the customer**  **11 and the distributor sometimes.**  **12 MR. COHEN: And at that point, and**  **13 this is sort of why I was asking the question,**  **14 at that point they're getting to that separate**  **15 company, separate from the OEM manufacturer.**  **16 They're making a decision about what to**  **17 package up into what becomes the pump that**  **18 actually, as we're defining it, the broader**  **19 definition of pump that gets sold to the**  **20 market. And they're actually doing the work,**  **21 and that might require some additional**  **22 engineering. But that might require trimming** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 this or, you know --**  **2 MR. POWERS: But, see, what's**  **3 interesting, what's interesting, as I go**  **4 around, some of the work they do, in our shops**  **5 we do the exact same thing, except for this**  **6 customer, except for that customer. It's very**  **7 similar, right? Because we also invoke our**  **8 standards down to them on things they have to**  **9 do. Like, if it's in the chemical market,**  **10 they have to do things certain ways, in the**  **11 power market certain ways, and in general**  **12 industry or whatever, right?**  **13 But what's unique again is, if the**  **14 core product has to be a certain efficiency,**  **15 even if they're trimming it, even if they're**  **16 adding stuff, they still have the core product**  **17 that has to meet some standard, right? They**  **18 can't go elsewhere and play games. So maybe**  **19 there's a way, you know, instead of worrying**  **20 about where it's packaged or whatever, start**  **21 with who is the original OEM, and maybe that's**  **22 the term you want to use, and go from there** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 because they're not OEMs.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?**  **3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **4 EEI. And, again, I'm just speaking with, like,**  **5 other products. What if the customer is doing**  **6 that on-site and going and just getting this**  **7 stuff from the OEMs, and then they're doing**  **8 the actual revising of the product?**  **9 MR. POWERS: Yes, maybe Charlie**  **10 can step in here. My guess would be the more**  **11 standard they won't, which is most of the**  **12 category, in my opinion. I could be wrong.**  **13 I'd have to go back and ask the team and ask**  **14 questions.**  **15 What I saw in green, you probably**  **16 won't have as much of that, right? You start**  **17 getting into some of these other products,**  **18 specialized, you know, engineered types of**  **19 things, you know -- I'll give an example. It**  **20 won't be in this category, but Shell. Shell**  **21 and certain refineries have their own team.**  **22 They're so good, they know what that refinery** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 needs and they'll buy the bare pump and do all**  **2 the rest.**  **3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The point being**  **4 is, like, suppose a customer is doing it, as**  **5 well as a distributor, then what?**  **6 MR. COHEN: So under the statute,**  **7 the customer can do whatever they want. If**  **8 you go out and you buy, you go today and you**  **9 go to Best Buy and you buy yourself a**  **10 refrigerator and you want to add a television**  **11 to it, you know, go right ahead. You can do**  **12 that.**  **13 MR. POWERS: But what's cool about**  **14 that option is that OEM guy who built the base**  **15 refrigerator has to have a stamp on it that**  **16 meets your deal. So after that, again, you**  **17 know, you start with where's the food chain?**  **18 MR. COHEN: But the law is pretty**  **19 clear. Once it gets to the actual end user of**  **20 the product, our authority is cut off and then**  **21 the end user does, you know, whatever the end**  **22 user wants to do. It's in your house. We** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 don't actually go into your house and tell you**  **2 what to do with your refrigerator.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Dan. Thank**  **4 you. Okay. And Gary Fernstrom had a few**  **5 slides he wanted to just flash through here**  **6 before we go back through the issues of**  **7 definition and the like.**  **8 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. This is**  **9 Gary with California IOUs. Just very quickly,**  **10 I shared with you that we were going to be**  **11 testing some circulator pumps. I'm going to**  **12 show you some pictures of where we are with**  **13 the test stand.**  **14 What I don't want to have happen**  **15 is us to test these things and then come back**  **16 with the results at the next meeting and have**  **17 you all tell me we did the test wrong. So,**  **18 hopefully, we can have private communications**  **19 to make sure that, you know, what we do is**  **20 meeting your needs for testing.**  **21 This shows three pumps hooked up**  **22 in parallel for break-in. The EU requires ten** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 hours of break-in. This shows our TDH**  **2 imposer, if you will, with course and fine**  **3 adjustment to adjust the head that pumps are**  **4 pumping against. This is a coriolis flow**  **5 standard that we're using to check the**  **6 accuracy of the magnetic flow meters we're**  **7 using for this test.**  **8 And this is a picture of the whole**  **9 pump stand. What's not shown here is the**  **10 electrical measurement, and we'll be using a**  **11 NIST traceable**  **12 Yokogawa wattmeter to test all of the**  **13 electrical variables, which would be voltage,**  **14 current, watts, power factor, volt-amps,**  **15 harmonics, that sort of stuff.**  **16 So if either after this meeting or**  **17 privately, if you have any particular views on**  **18 what you think we ought to do with testing,**  **19 please let me know. We're planning to do is**  **20 use the EU control test with whatever controls**  **21 these pumps may have enabled, and then we're**  **22 planning to do a non-control test to hopefully** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 give us the intrinsic efficiency of the pump**  **2 and motor not utilizing control features.**  **3 Thank you.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Mark?**  **5 MR. HANDZEL: Gary, just to give**  **6 you some feedback. I don't think any one of**  **7 us at this table has said that, you know, a PM**  **8 circulator is less efficient than a standard**  **9 circulator. So, I mean, there's no dispute**  **10 that you're going to find, you know, the ECM**  **11 motors to be far more efficient than, you**  **12 know, the standard induction motor circulator.**  **13 So I guess I'm just saying I'm not quite sure**  **14 what you're expecting the working group to**  **15 take from this as an end result.**  **16 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, what we**  **17 expect to do is quantify the difference in**  **18 energy use, so when coupled with some**  **19 estimate, if we can come to it, of hours of**  **20 operation and market saturation, we'll have an**  **21 idea of what the energy use and energy savings**  **22 potential is to inform the group about whether** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 or not a standard is merited.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?**  **3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Gary, thanks, and**  **4 you have permission to share that data with**  **5 us, right? I didn't know how proprietary the**  **6 data was going to be.**  **7 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, we'll make it**  **8 blind with respect to who the manufacturers**  **9 are.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments,**  **11 questions here? Okay. Thank you, Gary. And**  **12 can people visit this site?**  **13 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary.**  **14 Sure, absolutely. Anyone who wants to visit,**  **15 you know, participate, is welcome to do so,**  **16 except that we are going to keep the**  **17 manufacturing information confidential.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So now I**  **19 want to return to page three. We were in**  **20 discussion yesterday, and I thought we had a**  **21 pretty thorough discussion on the possible**  **22 definition. And then the point was made that** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 maybe we should figure out the scope first.**  **2 However, to be clear, the header reads**  **3 "possible definition of covered product,"**  **4 right? That is the broad definition. Lucas?**  **5 MR. ADIN: Yes.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: That is for DOE's**  **7 purposes and the working group's purposes.**  **8 MR. ADIN: Right.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Elaborate on this.**  **10 MR. ADIN: It is the definition of**  **11 what -- well, this is the definition that**  **12 clarifies what the term "pump" means in terms**  **13 of the statutory term "pump" in EPCA. So this**  **14 is the broader category of things, classified**  **15 as a pump for which DOE has statutory**  **16 authority to set standards, so assigning a**  **17 definition to that term.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: And then this**  **19 working group will decide which pumps which**  **20 fit inside this covered product definition,**  **21 which pumps they choose to recommend to ASRAC**  **22 be regulated?** 

### Page 228

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. ADIN: That's right.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary?**  **3 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom.**  **4 So, Lucas, I just want to be clear on this**  **5 that you refer to this statutory term pump,**  **6 and that's defined somewhere else. That's not**  **7 something that DOE does or we do, or does DOE**  **8 have some influence over the statutory**  **9 definition? I know maybe you can't answer it,**  **10 but that's my question.**  **11 MR. ADIN: So the word pump,**  **12 obviously, is in the statute. But the word**  **13 pump, that term doesn't have a specific**  **14 definition in the statute that's associated**  **15 with it. So we're assigning one, yes.**  **16 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. You've**  **17 answered my question.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: So I think this is**  **19 the language.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: We had a**  **21 recommendation that this should actually not**  **22 be fluids because that could mean air, for** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 example. So it's been recommended that we**  **2 maybe change it to liquid or something else.**  **3 Does anybody have comment on that?**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Fluids could mean**  **5 air?**  **6 MS. WIDDER: Yes.**  **7 MR. POWERS: There's two things --**  **8 Chuck Powers here. There's two things. The**  **9 EU or the ERP group that put this together,**  **10 their version, is very similar and said a**  **11 water pump is a hydraulic part of a device**  **12 that moves clean water by physical or**  **13 mechanical action and is one of the following**  **14 designs, and it goes on to list those group of**  **15 11, right? But what's unique is they go in**  **16 and define the water.**  **17 MR. CASE: This is the general**  **18 definition.**  **19 MR. POWERS: Right, right.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we have a**  **21 definition for clean water.**  **22 MR. POWERS: Right. But my point** 

### Page 230

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 is I think most of what's written there is not**  **2 exactly but fairly close to . . .**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, I'd**  **4 like to see if everybody is kind of**  **5 comfortable with this definition of pump.**  **6 Yes, Gary?**  **7 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,**  **8 California IOUs. So I have an issue with**  **9 this. I certainly see the benefit of having**  **10 a very broad definition, which I think DOE, in**  **11 general, wants to do. However, by having a**  **12 broad definition of pump and then limiting the**  **13 federal regulation, if I understand it right,**  **14 where you preempt the states from attempting**  **15 to regulate anything that DOE chooses not to**  **16 do. And that doesn't seem like a very**  **17 desirable situation to me.**  **18 So I would want the definition to**  **19 conform more precisely with what DOE chooses**  **20 to regulate, leaving the option of other**  **21 things open for others who might have an**  **22 interest and have a resulting benefit from** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 regulating.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments on**  **3 these points? Louis?**  **4 MR. STARR: I was just kind of**  **5 thinking that probably, before we fix the**  **6 definition of pump, we should probably, kind**  **7 of like we originally started, determine what**  **8 the coverage is first because the area of**  **9 coverage and some of the other aspects may**  **10 affect what the definition of pump is.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you agree**  **12 globally with, are you sympathetic with Gary's**  **13 review?**  **14 MR. STARR: Yes.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Charlie?**  **16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Since it was**  **17 repeated by Gary, I'll repeat the statement**  **18 from the manufacturers. This is Charlie from**  **19 ITT. And from our view, the more commonality**  **20 we have across the market, that's our**  **21 preference, so we don't have to deal with**  **22 different requirements from one state to the** 

### Page 232

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 next to the next.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. You wish to**  **3 have a broad application here. You're not**  **4 referring to the EU definition.**  **5 MR. CAPPELLINO: I'm talking**  **6 about, within the United States, a uniformity**  **7 of requirements, from a product standpoint and**  **8 a regulatory standpoint, is an advantage to**  **9 the manufacturers.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Gary?**  **11 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary for the**  **12 California IOU. So, Charlie, frankly, I agree**  **13 with you. I see great value in commonality.**  **14 However, I see great failure in a**  **15 non-regulation regulation. So it seems to me**  **16 we have three situations. We can have**  **17 commonality, which we all agree is ideal. We**  **18 can have the circumstance where, if the**  **19 federal government chooses not to regulate**  **20 something, others who have regulatory**  **21 authority, such as the states, can. And we**  **22 can have this situation where if the federal** 

### Page 233

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 government chooses not to regulate something,**  **2 nobody can. And I just think the last**  **3 category is untenable.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. It seems as**  **5 though we, it seems as though we have a couple**  **6 of different -- Betsy?**  **7 MS. KOHL: So this is all tied up**  **8 in the preemption discussion that we indicated**  **9 is going to have to take place after today.**  **10 So we did want to emphasize that, regardless**  **11 of how that issue was resolved, there are**  **12 waiver provisions for preemption in the**  **13 statute and there's a process for that that**  **14 you may be familiar with. But just so that**  **15 you're aware of that, states can apply for a**  **16 preemption based on --**  **17 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary.**  **18 Thank you. We have found the waiver process**  **19 to be absolutely useless. We have attempted**  **20 and, to my knowledge, no one has ever**  **21 successfully gotten a waiver. So for all**  **22 practical purposes, that's not an option.** 

### Page 234

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: It seems, based on**  **2 the -- go ahead, Meg.**  **3 MS. WALTNER: Maybe this is what**  **4 you were about to say, but I was just going to**  **5 say, you know, I think for the advocates, the**  **6 discussion of scope is really critical to our**  **7 decision on the definition of a covered**  **8 product. So until we get some of those issues**  **9 resolved, hopefully leading up to the next**  **10 meeting, we're not going to be able to make a**  **11 decision on this really. So I'm not going --**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's where I was**  **13 going, yes, in that direction. I'll say we**  **14 have a couple of different world views here,**  **15 that's clear. Steve Rosenstock?**  **16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **17 EEI. I agree that this is critical. Again,**  **18 I guess everything comes down to how much of**  **19 an initial scope do we want to start with**  **20 this? Because, remember, the initial scope,**  **21 it might make it harder to expand the scope**  **22 later on. So, again, it's a matter of we have** 

### Page 235

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 a big scope and we just do clean water.**  **2 Again, conceptually, then if DOE wants to get**  **3 into waste water pumps or non-clean water**  **4 pumps, it's like, oh, wait a minute, the**  **5 original rule says you can only do clean**  **6 water. So it could be a hurdle later on.**  **7 So, again, I'm just thinking 10,**  **8 15 years down the road is, if we agree, I'll**  **9 just say, I'll say a narrow scope until we**  **10 match what we agree on to the scope and**  **11 everything matches, there could be a precedent**  **12 that says, well, if DOE wants to expand, a**  **13 narrow definition of scope could make it**  **14 harder for DOE to justify it.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. And there**  **16 you've offered the counterpart. Now back to**  **17 Gary.**  **18 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom**  **19 again, California IOUs. So Steve, there have**  **20 been many products initially regulated in**  **21 California that DOE has chosen to cover and**  **22 adopted similar regulations. So I don't see** 

### Page 236

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 much risk associated with taking a narrower**  **2 scope to begin with and later expanding it, as**  **3 opposed to a very broad scope and not doing**  **4 anything with it.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to**  **6 suggest we move on. Louis, final comment?**  **7 MR. STARR: Just another thought.**  **8 You know, one part is the market. I guess**  **9 U.S. competitors and the world of circulators**  **10 may not be up to speed on competitively**  **11 participating in the market, whereas if it's**  **12 adopted in a small area, although California**  **13 is not terribly small, it is a smaller market**  **14 than the whole U.S. market, they give an**  **15 opportunity for the pump manufacturers to get**  **16 everything more up to speed while still**  **17 incentivizing some energy and encouraging**  **18 energy efficient technology in a pumping**  **19 application. So, I mean, I kind of see**  **20 upsides for both in terms of this possibly**  **21 being regulation in California.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's move,** 

### Page 237

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 let's look at the clean water definition since**  **2 we have one. And, once again, the source for**  **3 this, Greg, this is the EU definition that HI**  **4 has looked at, and you feel comfortable with**  **5 this? He said yes.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison.**  **7 I just want to clarify this first definition**  **8 is what's in the EU standard for clean water,**  **9 and there's a separate definition for testing**  **10 of clean cold water. So I have them both on**  **11 there, and I just wanted to make that clear**  **12 that there's two different ones, which may or**  **13 may not be what we want to do. Probably the**  **14 definition for clean water has to be**  **15 objectively quantifiable in some form.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you read it?**  **17 Is it big enough to read? Can you read it?**  **18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, yes. Thank**  **19 you very much.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: What does it mean,**  **21 any additives that are needed to avoid water**  **22 freezing down to minus 10 degrees C shall not** 

### Page 238

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 be taken into account? That's okay. It's**  **2 okay is what that means?**  **3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is Steve.**  **4 That's the glycol issue that I was asking**  **5 about before because it can be used in a lot**  **6 of systems.**  **7 Solar thermal applications and the**  **8 like. MR. BROOKMAN: And then the second one**  **9 is -- whose definition is that?**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: This is also the EU**  **11 definition, but it's referring to testing**  **12 rather than standards applications.**  **13 MS. WALTNER: Doug, can I ask a**  **14 question?**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Meg, please.**  **16 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, NRDC.**  **17 For the pump manufacturers who worked on this**  **18 definition in the EU standard, how were the**  **19 quarter kilogram per meter cubed and 50**  **20 kilogram per meter cubed metrics developed?**  **21 Where did those come from?**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?** 

### Page 239

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. CASE: I can't tell you**  **2 exactly where those came from. This is Greg**  **3 Case of HI. They were an attempt to keep us**  **4 away from solids-handling pumps, and so that**  **5 was a size range to keep us out of the**  **6 solids-handling. And I believe that still**  **7 would include things like seawater and things**  **8 like that in the definition. So we were**  **9 trying to, what they were trying to do was say**  **10 you could have gray water, you could have**  **11 clean water, but you weren't having a**  **12 solids-handling pump, a significant**  **13 solids-handling.**  **14 MR. POWERS: And I think what they**  **15 also tried to do --**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers.**  **17 MR. POWERS: -- when I was at one**  **18 of the meetings is they took a look at all the**  **19 pumps across the board and they said when do**  **20 we get to the point that the solids will**  **21 either impact the ability for a water pump not**  **22 to work anymore or have excessive wear or** 

### Page 240

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 other factors, right? To try to look at what**  **2 are those limits, right? Not that somebody**  **3 should use a water pump for that, but, if they**  **4 did, it's going to have an adverse effect.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?**  **6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **7 EEI. So seawater, all saltwater/seawater,**  **8 would that be considered clean water in this**  **9 definition? I just want to clarify just for**  **10 my own education.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, that's what**  **12 Greg said, yes.**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: And we checked the**  **14 map , and it does include sea --**  **15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So like**  **16 for a desalinization plant, those pumps could**  **17 qualify if they fell in this category then?**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, thank you.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm not sure we**  **21 -- well, maybe we'll just spend a few minutes.**  **22 There are other things I want to cover here** 

### Page 241

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 before we leave today. Any comments on this?**  **2 We're going to not do anything with it today,**  **3 but any comments, any general problems with**  **4 what's being described here just right now**  **5 before we move on? Chuck?**  **6 MR. POWERS: I would take out the**  **7 test stand, and the reason there is a purpose**  **8 for that is if you're going to do a test, and**  **9 I'm sure Sarah can comment towards it, you**  **10 don't want the temperature up at X because it**  **11 can have effects on the impact to the**  **12 efficiency of the pumps or other things. And**  **13 I think what that was just trying to say is,**  **14 you know, make sure that when you do a test it**  **15 doesn't go beyond some of these parameters.**  **16 That's all that was. I don't think it's, I**  **17 don't want to get the two mixed up. And to be**  **18 fair, the reason I'm saying that is because,**  **19 in the definition that you look at here, they**  **20 do in another paragraph say that water pumps**  **21 between minus 10 and plus 120 C, all they're**  **22 saying is when you do a test don't go above** 

### Page 242

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 40, right? You know, because it could have**  **2 impacts. You know what I mean?**  **3 So we've got to be careful, your**  **4 double standard. When you use the one that**  **5 says 40 degrees C, it doesn't show, well, it**  **6 says minus 10, but if you go into the EU**  **7 standard, they actually say the water pumps**  **8 are in between minus 10 and 120. So I just**  **9 want to make sure we don't, you know, somebody**  **10 won't interpret that, oh, good, we can -- you**  **11 know what I mean? And I don't want that to --**  **12 you're going to eliminate pumps if you limit**  **13 it at 40.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Final**  **15 comments on clean water definition? Let's**  **16 move on to after the --**  **17 MR. ADIN: Doug, just to clarify**  **18 --**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, please?**  **20 MR. ADIN: -- assume that is one**  **21 of the conditions you'd use for the test,**  **22 that's something that will be specified in the** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 test procedure, right? So we're not proposing**  **2 to use this as a means for classifying pumps**  **3 for the purpose of coverage, this is just a**  **4 test condition. Right, okay. Yes, I**  **5 personally don't see the benefit of having**  **6 that particular definition here. I don't know**  **7 what purpose that serves. It's not a really**  **8 scope of coverage thing, it's a test condition**  **9 so . . .**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's just**  **11 make a notation.**  **12 MS. WILLIAMS: We just wanted to**  **13 provide, just to make sure that people know**  **14 that there are two separate definitions for**  **15 clean water.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. You've got**  **17 it. Let's go to what was formerly a possible**  **18 definition of covered product that's now**  **19 called general description of pump components.**  **20 So this is the reworking of this slide that we**  **21 took up yesterday morning, and I thought this**  **22 was a good discussion. And I was wanting to** 

### Page 244

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 generally see if you think these are, since**  **2 you've had a chance to sleep on it, whether**  **3 these descriptors, these descriptions are**  **4 good, sufficient, whether you like what you**  **5 see there.**  **6 MR. ADIN: So the only comment**  **7 that I had -- this is Lucas Adin, DOE -- is on**  **8 the driver definition, is there any reason not**  **9 to just put a period after mechanical**  **10 equipment and exclude the rest of that? I**  **11 mean, do we have to specify what all those**  **12 things could be? Along the same lines of what**  **13 we did for --**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?**  **15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **16 EEI. From my view, it's kind of important**  **17 because I know in all the conversations and,**  **18 again, it just shows, I think it helps to show**  **19 that there's a variety of equipment that can**  **20 be used for the drivers. I know that the**  **21 conversation is dominated about motors,**  **22 especially in the size, because you're talking** 

### Page 245

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 about the smaller size, under 200 horsepower,**  **2 and probably the diesels or the gas ones are**  **3 probably larger. But I think it kind of helps**  **4 to show that it shows a realization that there**  **5 could be multiple drivers out there, so I**  **6 don't think it hurts that definition there.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN : Okay. So, those**  **9 that I listed and not including marine, Navy**  **10 and nuclear pumps and sanitary pumps and this**  **11 one still to be -- do we need additional**  **12 discussion on any of those before we take a**  **13 vote to exclude them?**  **14 Meg.**  **15 MS. WALTNER: So, just to be a**  **16 hundred percent clear, the ones that say**  **17 "okay" next to them on that list up there is**  **18 the ones we're voting to exclude.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: The ones I just**  **20 read, yes.**  **21 MS. WALTNER: Yes.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And also to be** 

### Page 246

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 clear following what you said earlier,**  **2 definitions are required for these, right? We**  **3 want to obtain clarity on what this means.**  **4 Doug, do you have a question or**  **5 comment?**  **6 MR. POTTS: Yeah, just -- Doug**  **7 Potts, American Water.**  **8 Just for my own clarification,**  **9 could you remind me why the axial mixed flow**  **10 pumps were excluded?**  **11 Was it just because of the small**  **12 market share?**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **14 MR. HUBER: Yes, it's a very, very**  **15 small market share in the size range we're**  **16 talking about. Most of those are sold in much**  **17 higher horsepowers in much higher sizes and**  **18 much higher flows.**  **19 So, I mean, it would just be way**  **20 out of the scope.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, I'm about**  **22 to move the question here.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. POWERS: If I could go back,**  **2 again I'm just trying to make sure we're**  **3 clear.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **5 MR. POWERS: So we're not wasting**  **6 time and going on forever here several months**  **7 or whatever it's going to take, but the**  **8 marine, Navy, nuclear, Lucas, I'm going to ask**  **9 you. Do you feel compelled where you want to**  **10 take that off the, I mean, get rid of it and**  **11 we will include those, or do you feel that**  **12 there is a possibility -- what am I missing?**  **13 MR. ADIN: So, I mean, in**  **14 principle, personally, I don't have any**  **15 problem taking them off the list myself. My**  **16 understanding is that maybe there are some**  **17 others in the group that needed to hear a**  **18 little more clarity on how that --**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: But my reservation**  **20 is we discussed all of these with the**  **21 exception of these last two, rather**  **22 thoroughly. And as a process feature, I'd** 

### Page 248

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 like to make certain that we were careful**  **2 about the deliberation we do here.**  **3 So, that's the reason I -- if you**  **4 want to convince everyone right now, that's**  **5 fine, but that's my reservation.**  **6 MR. POWERS: Okay. So, who do I**  **7 have to convince?**  **8 (Laughter.)**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: These folks right**  **10 here. Those folks over there.**  **11 Joanna.**  **12 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna.**  **13 Yeah, I don't -- similar to Lucas,**  **14 I don't think we have any objection in**  **15 principle, but we don't have a good**  **16 understanding yet of what exactly we're**  **17 talking about and how they're going to be**  **18 defined.**  **19 So, I think if you guys can come**  **20 back at the next meeting and just give us some**  **21 additional information just so we have a**  **22 better understanding of what you're talking** 

### Page 249

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 about and --**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.**  **3 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think that's**  **4 basically it. I don't think there's any -- I**  **5 think we would readily accept that exclusion**  **6 pending a clear definition of what these are.**  **7 MR. POWERS: So, I guess I can't**  **8 give you a lot of information on Navy pumps,**  **9 because I'm under oath, I'm going to come back**  **10 and say Navy pumps. Then I can go on to nuke**  **11 a little more.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure.**  **13 MR. POWERS: And I'm even limited**  **14 there. And then the marine obviously I can**  **15 expand on some, but I'm not sure what we're**  **16 saying here.**  **17 MR. ECKMAN: Is this that that's**  **18 the exclusive customer of these pumps?**  **19 MR. POWERS: Yes.**  **20 MR. ECKMAN: Military --**  **21 MR. ADIN: Can I make a quick**  **22 clarification? That applies to certain --** 

### Page 250

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 there are certain pumps used in naval**  **2 applications that are custom designed, have**  **3 very, very stringent, you know, whether it's**  **4 nuclear, sound, whatever it is.**  **5 There are other pumps used on Navy**  **6 ships that are off the shelf that are --**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: And there are marine**  **8 applications which are much broader, right?**  **9 MR. ADIN: Sure. And marine I**  **10 think we're talking about just shipboard,**  **11 generally, not the Marine Corps.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN : Right. That's what**  **13 I mean, yes.**  **14 MR. ADIN: So, you know,**  **15 conceivably there could be pumps in there that**  **16 are something used in a building. And I think**  **17 that's really what we're trying to get to the**  **18 bottom of is how do you definitively determine**  **19 - because it's, you know, it's a fairly broad**  **20 category of things.**  **21 Some of them obviously you would**  **22 never want to touch. Very custom. Very, you** 

### Page 251

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 know, uniquely specified.**  **2 I think we're just trying to make**  **3 sure we understand which ones might be closer**  **4 to the boundary and how do you exclude them.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Greg.**  **6 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.**  **7 I think in our discussions we've**  **8 always said we're dealing with off-the-shelf**  **9 product, non-engineered product.**  **10 The ones you were just talking**  **11 about are engineered product. So, in general,**  **12 I don't know if we add something in there that**  **13 says non-engineered product,**  **14 non-custom-designed product, because we're not**  **15 supposed to be talking about those in this**  **16 rulemaking, was my understanding.**  **17 Those are not something you're**  **18 going to go -- you're trying to get the bulk**  **19 of the market. You're not trying to get this**  **20 engineered product that we would make one or**  **21 two of, correct?**  **22 MR. ADIN: So, that's really the** 

### Page 252

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 kind of description that maybe is -- I don't**  **2 know how exactly -- what kind of word -- we**  **3 might need to think about this on our end. I**  **4 mean, we could even make some suggestions**  **5 ourselves, because we've dealt with this kind**  **6 of thing before.**  **7 But it probably wouldn't be**  **8 sufficient just to say for shipboard**  **9 application or -- because that's pretty broad,**  **10 right?**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: I've made a note**  **12 about those words and I think we'll return to**  **13 them, but now we want -- Louis, go ahead.**  **14 MR. STARR: So, I think the marine**  **15 application and the shipboard ones could be**  **16 covered by some of the exclusion, maybe**  **17 temperature with the nuclear one, probably**  **18 there's temperature requirements to the fluid.**  **19 And then I don't know about some**  **20 of the naval aspects, but seawater, is that**  **21 clean water or not?**  **22 So, in other words, these things** 

### Page 253

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 may take care of themselves in some of the 2 exclusions of the --**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you advocating 4 we address them now?**  **5 MR. STARR: I was saying I'm kind 6 of getting at that it's not an issue, is more**  **7 of what I'm getting at, is that they're 8 excluded already.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: In the current 10 definition of clean water by the EU, seawater**  **11 is included. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.**  **13 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest 14 Power.**  **15 It may be that when you guys 16 identify the specifics, that it's not**  **17 necessarily a category, but it's a parameter 18 by which you can exclude them.**  **19 They're made out of stainless 20 steel of X mill, they are designed for X**  **21 temperatures or something like that that it 22 may be easier to do it that way than it is to** 

### Page 254

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 list them as a --**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **3 MR. HUBER: I think what we'll do**  **4 is we'll go back and I understand that you're**  **5 not -- the NGOs are not -- or are willing to**  **6 exclude them. You just got to make sure that**  **7 there can't be any cross-pollination back to**  **8 the, or there's some reason the cost,**  **9 materials, something that blocks that.**  **10 So, our group will take that back,**  **11 as I promised earlier, and try to bring that**  **12 back in March for you to consider.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. Okay.**  **14 I'm ready to move the question one more time.**  **15 We've fully considered and discussed all of**  **16 the items on the red list.**  **17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'd say okay.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Should I read them**  **19 again? No, I'm not going to read them again,**  **20 but there are two of them I would note.**  **21 I would note that the two that**  **22 were not included as marine, Navy, nuclear** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 pumps and also sanitary pumps and also pumps**  **2 outside certain parameters of power flow,**  **3 power flowhead, temperature, speed and bowl**  **4 diameter. So, we're not considering those.**  **5 The other items on the list here**  **6 in red are on the original list, which we**  **7 discussed fully. So, what I'm proposing is**  **8 now as a working group we take a vote to**  **9 exclude those items that I've listed.**  **10 All those in favor of excluding**  **11 these items, please raise your hand.**  **12 (Voting.)**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: So, scanning around**  **14 the room I would note that every single member**  **15 of the committee has agreed. We have a**  **16 unanimity in support of excluding these as**  **17 another consensus. Thank you very much.**  **18 (Applause.)**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: We're getting good**  **20 at this. Now, what do you think about some of**  **21 these items , and let's talk about green and**  **22 yellow.** 

### Page 256

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 My remembrance from yesterday is**  **2 that -- or should we go to the definitions?**  **3 Let's stick with this.**  **4 My remembrance from yesterday is**  **5 green is, that's principally, those are the**  **6 major categories that were in the HI proposal,**  **7 correct? That is correct, right?**  **8 And DOE at the framework meeting**  **9 in February a year ago, basically was saying**  **10 they thought that that was a sensible kind of**  **11 a core bunch of products and then they had**  **12 some additions.**  **13 And those additions are largely**  **14 listed there in yellow. And maybe there's a**  **15 few in addition to what DOE was thinking at**  **16 that framework meeting.**  **17 So, I would just open it up for**  **18 discussion here. Confirm my logic. Describe**  **19 what in yellow you think might also be subject**  **20 to exclusion. And maybe at this point, we**  **21 will not entertain additional discussion on**  **22 circulators unless you want to, because it** 

### Page 257

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 seems like we're waiting on data there.**  **2 Go ahead, Lucas.**  **3 MR. ADIN: Well, some in the group**  **4 might be. I don't know. I mean, I'm speaking**  **5 for DOE's part. I don't know that we are, but**  **6 --**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, let's talk about**  **8 that, yeah.**  **9 MR. ADIN: I think I've gotten the**  **10 impression that there are some who are willing**  **11 to make a decision on circulators today, but,**  **12 you know, I'd like to hear what the rest of**  **13 the group thinks about it.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: So, let's hear about**  **15 some individuals about any of these items**  **16 listed in yellow.**  **17 Steve.**  **18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.**  **19 Yeah, just as another thought to**  **20 this here, do you want to -- is there a way to**  **21 do a group thing? There's five maybes outside**  **22 of circulators. Discuss those as a group if** 

### Page 258

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that's -- if there's a way to do that like we**  **2 did with the nos.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah -- well, that**  **4 was -- yeah, I was thinking that right now any**  **5 individual that wanted to advocate for**  **6 excluding any of these yellows or greens could**  **7 do so probably focusing on the yellows and**  **8 just see where we end up.**  **9 Al.**  **10 MR. HUBER: I would like to see us**  **11 exclude the yellow until such time as we have**  **12 data necessary to make an intelligent**  **13 decision, because we don't have it.**  **14 The data that we were shown**  **15 yesterday is just all over the map, not**  **16 accurate. And what we would like to see, or**  **17 at least some of our group would like to see,**  **18 is the adoption of the HI proposal and these**  **19 in yellow be considered at a later date,**  **20 including the circulators, by next year so**  **21 that we have enough time to get enough data**  **22 together so we can accurately decide whether** 

### Page 259

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 we ought to include them or not.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm noting what I**  **3 believe you said yesterday or -- yes,**  **4 yesterday, Al, which was the most recent data**  **5 request from DOE went out, oh, in the last**  **6 couple of weeks.**  **7 MR. HUBER: January the 10th, I**  **8 think.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: And you were**  **10 suggesting that from your perspective, you**  **11 thought that the industry would be coming back**  **12 with that data four or five months you said,**  **13 I believe. Three, five months?**  **14 MR. HUBER: No, that was something**  **15 -- I think probably end of February or March**  **16 sometime.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, end of February**  **18 or March for the current request.**  **19 MR. HUBER: The current request.**  **20 And I think if I'm not mistaken, it is the**  **21 maybe items. Is it all the maybe items, or**  **22 not? I don't recall.** 

### Page 260

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, all the maybe**  **2 items are in there, as well as some additional**  **3 data for the yes items.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, you want to**  **5 follow on?**  **6 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **7 Cappellino.**  **8 The data that Al is referring to**  **9 is really more the market data in the survey,**  **10 I believe.**  **11 I know on the items in green we**  **12 have the benefit of all of the MEI study that**  **13 the EU did to give us good target efficiencies**  **14 for those type of products.**  **15 I'm not sure we have that same**  **16 kind of information to base MEIs on or the**  **17 items in yellow, which is another piece of the**  **18 puzzle here. You can correct me if I'm wrong,**  **19 but --**  **20 MR. HUBER: I think that's part of**  **21 their survey, because they're asking, well,**  **22 are they? They're asking for efficiencies** 

### Page 261

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that, I mean, we haven't developed an MEI for**  **2 it.**  **3 I assume that they're going to try**  **4 to from the data that they're asking for.**  **5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, that's Al Huber**  **7 speaking. And --**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: So, yeah, sorry.**  **9 This is Alison.**  **10 So, with the, I mean, we're trying**  **11 to collect data part load also so we can**  **12 explore different kind of metrics to look at**  **13 with the different performance data that's**  **14 provided.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, do you want to**  **16 chime in here? No. So, what, does anybody,**  **17 someone talk about some of these items in**  **18 yellow. Al has already suggested we don't**  **19 have the data.**  **20 Also implicit in that is getting**  **21 the data is going to take time. Doing the**  **22 analysis is going to take time.** 

### Page 262

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 We've discussed earlier yesterday**  **2 and today about the time frame that we're**  **3 considering here presumably in the, get it**  **4 done in this year. Perhaps a term sheet to**  **5 DOE by July so that they can get it in NOPR**  **6 language by September.**  **7 Thoughts on items in yellow. Yes,**  **8 Tom Eckman.**  **9 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest**  **10 Power Council.**  **11 You know, looking back at the**  **12 shipment slide, which I think is 12, and the**  **13 variation in our knowledge of the magnitude of**  **14 the shipments, it's not just in the yellow**  **15 range. It's all the way across the green.**  **16 If you look at some of those,**  **17 there are, you know, from high to low**  **18 estimates, there's a 40 times difference**  **19 between one estimate and another about how**  **20 many units we're actually shipping in some of**  **21 these product classes.**  **22 So, I think we're in jeopardy of** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 making decisions without much information**  **2 across both the yellow and the green, because**  **3 I'm willing to take a look at the green to see**  **4 whether the magnitude of some of those sales**  **5 is too small to bother with as well.**  **6 Even though you guys have thought**  **7 about it, it's not clear from this that**  **8 somewhere between 3500 and 23,000 or between**  **9 8,000 and 470,000 is the shipments for that**  **10 unit. That tells me nothing.**  **11 So, until we get better resolution**  **12 on this to narrow those ranges, I don't know**  **13 which are big magnitudes and which are small**  **14 magnitudes. And, again, it's not just the**  **15 energy consumption, but the potential for**  **16 improvement in those classes that strikes me**  **17 as important.**  **18 They can use a lot of energy, but**  **19 there might not be potential for improvement.**  **20 Well, let's not spend a lot of time on**  **21 something where we can't get any change unless**  **22 we -- if there's a real potential for** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 improvement particularly with an integrated**  **2 product, then let's target those things.**  **3 But until we see more substantial**  **4 shipments information, I'm sort of reluctant**  **5 to make a move to decide yes, no or sideways**  **6 on any of these.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw Al Huber**  **8 first.**  **9 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **10 In the current surveys, they do**  **11 not take in consideration any of the green.**  **12 So, as far as I know --**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, they do.**  **14 MR. HUBER: All of them?**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **16 MR. HUBER: Yeah. So, we've got to**  **17 go back. We've got to go back through all**  **18 that and we haven't, you know, we don't have**  **19 that information.**  **20 The problem that we have for most**  **21 of our manufacturers is some of this**  **22 information exists, some of it doesn't.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Some of it is not in the -- it**  **2 doesn't exist in the exact categories that are**  **3 asked for. So, it's going to take us some**  **4 time to get all this in, but we do have on the**  **5 green, we do have an MEI. We do have those**  **6 already fleshed out. We do know what the**  **7 potential is for energy improvement, which was**  **8 one reason that we're proposing let's do the**  **9 green, because we're willing to do that.**  **10 It is in alignment with EU.**  **11 Although, they're going -- they're moving to**  **12 some of these that are in the yellow, which,**  **13 you know, we were proposing that.**  **14 And what we're saying is that if**  **15 we move on with the green and get it done, you**  **16 know, this group as the manufacturers are more**  **17 than willing to sit down again and next year,**  **18 January or December or whenever anybody wants**  **19 to, and start working on circulators and some**  **20 of these in yellow. And we will have the**  **21 data, we think, massaged, in good shape and**  **22 we'll find out what we need to have. And** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that's why we propose that.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. Chuck, I'm**  **3 going to let a few advocates follow on; is**  **4 that okay?**  **5 MR. POWERS: Whatever you want to**  **6 do.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, I want to do**  **8 that.**  **9 Louis.**  **10 MR. STARR: So, more of my thought**  **11 is I would just regardless of whether these**  **12 ones in yellow become covered or not covered,**  **13 prefer that DOE just do their statutory**  **14 requirement of looking at the analysis I've**  **15 seen with the savings there, potential or not.**  **16 Do the best job they can that can be used in**  **17 the future 14 years from now, 21 years from**  **18 now. So, you've got to get the ball rolling,**  **19 if nothing else.**  **20 And then, you know, clearly there**  **21 are some existing opportunities, there's other**  **22 ways we can address them through states and** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 some other things. So, maybe the federal 2 forum is not the proper way to do it.**  **3 And so, that will inform those 4 kind of decisions. So, for now it's really,**  **5 it's getting that information back and then 6 helping us to just inform the decision.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, I don't want 8 to put you on the spot. Would you be**  **9 comfortable with the sort of phased approach 10 that Al is suggesting that we start with a**  **11 scope, perhaps the scope in green, and then 12 with a commitment to return to a scope,**  **13 perhaps the scope in yellow, in a year or so 14 when the data and analysis is more advanced?**  **15 MR. STARR: I think we can make 16 that decision probably whenever we get the**  **17 information out, because you're assuming that 18 all of that process is happening on the part**  **19 of the Department of Energy where it could 20 happen at the state level.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 22 MR. STARR: So, in other words,** 

### Page 268

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 agreeing to something that's going to happen**  **2 in a federal standard.**  **3 And in reality, DOE doesn't have**  **4 that ability. They've got about 500 things**  **5 they're trying to do. So, I don't think they**  **6 can commit to a schedule of that.**  **7 And so, I mean, a better tack**  **8 would maybe be looking at a state level**  **9 regulation. I mean, first of all we'd have to**  **10 establish whether there's an opportunity. And**  **11 it's not clear to me that there's necessarily**  **12 an opportunity with circulators. In theory,**  **13 there is. We have to figure out how much, you**  **14 know, may be better, I mean, at least where**  **15 the cost effectiveness is, how much do these**  **16 things cost and how much energy savings.**  **17 I've done one with my own, you**  **18 know. I just looked at what the price of a**  **19 circulator is with a regular one and an ECM.**  **20 So, I have in my own mind even if it's 2,000**  **21 hours, I know what the cost effectiveness of**  **22 it is just from a consumer standpoint. So, I** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 have a pretty good sense that there's a good**  **2 cost effectiveness, but it's really analysis**  **3 that DOE or DOE consultants need to do in**  **4 order for us --**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary**  **6 Fernstrom.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. I just want**  **8 to clarify that in order for us to do that**  **9 analysis, we do need to get that data from**  **10 manufacturers.**  **11 So, even if the decision is to put**  **12 them off -- or whenever the decision is made,**  **13 we have to get, you know, cooperation from the**  **14 manufacturers on the ones in yellow for that**  **15 to happen.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: So, that's Alison**  **17 speaking. Now, Gary Fernstrom.**  **18 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom for**  **19 the California IOUs.**  **20 On the subject of the circulators,**  **21 I'm not comfortable summarily ruling them out**  **22 until we see what information we can get.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 PG&E is testing circulator pumps.**  **2 And when we get the opportunity, I have three**  **3 or four slides here showing you some pictures**  **4 of the NIST traceable test stand that we put**  **5 together in order to do that.**  **6 And probably in four to six weeks**  **7 we'll have the results. So, we'll know what**  **8 the energy efficiency improvement opportunity**  **9 is. And we'll know what we paid for these**  **10 products. So, we'll know the price.**  **11 There's probably still going to be**  **12 some uncertainty around the market depending**  **13 upon how soon the manufacturers can respond to**  **14 DOE's consultants and provide market data, but**  **15 we're not very far from fully understanding**  **16 this opportunity.**  **17 And I agree with Louis. If we**  **18 can't make it, yeah, let's put it off, but I'm**  **19 worried that DOE may not be able to**  **20 accommodate that. So, let's look first and**  **21 decide later.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, I would** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 entertain -- it looks like Meg, and then I'm**  **2 coming back to you, Chuck.**  **3 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. So, I just**  **4 have -- this is Meg from NRDC. Just a**  **5 question to DOE.**  **6 I'm wondering, you know, for the**  **7 pumps within HI's original scope, DOE has to**  **8 go through its whole process of data**  **9 collection and analysis anyways.**  **10 I'm wondering how much**  **11 consideration of the products in yellow at**  **12 this point really affects sort of the**  **13 timeline, because you have to do that data**  **14 collection anyway.**  **15 MR. ADIN: Right.**  **16 MS. WALTNER: I don't quite see**  **17 how eliminating them at this point --**  **18 MR. ADIN: Right. So, the question**  **19 is, does the decision on whether to include or**  **20 exclude the things in yellow stop the ball**  **21 from rolling on the other things that we need**  **22 to analyze?** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Is that basically, I mean, I was**  **2 going through that same process in my head.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Or slow it down,**  **4 yeah.**  **5 MR. ADIN: Or slow it down. I**  **6 mean, it doesn't stop the show. I mean, we**  **7 still need to do that analysis anyway. You're**  **8 right. So, that will proceed.**  **9 I mean, it does give us other**  **10 things that we need to analyze, data we need**  **11 to compile. I mean, obviously if we just**  **12 eliminated them today, we would just, you**  **13 know, wouldn't worry about what we need to**  **14 analyze for the group to make that decision.**  **15 I'm not suggesting that we're**  **16 trying to avoid doing that. I just mean, you**  **17 know, it is one more thing we would need to**  **18 do, but, yeah, I mean, for the things that we**  **19 all agree or seem to agree that we're going to**  **20 include anyway, yeah, I mean, our intention**  **21 is, you know, to the extent we have data that**  **22 we can analyze, we're going to move forward.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman, do you**  **2 want to comment here?**  **3 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I had the same**  **4 question as Meg, is by asking for information**  **5 on the yellow and the green, are we slowing**  **6 down the process of getting some part done?**  **7 But I think it may be that we reach a decision**  **8 point in March or April, maybe in March when**  **9 Gary has information, that the areas in yellow**  **10 for lack of a test procedure or other things,**  **11 have to be put off to a different phase.**  **12 And in order to be satisfied that**  **13 that phasing would work, you know, I'd ask**  **14 that DOE be clearer about whether or not it**  **15 could start a second proceedings to include**  **16 additional covered products in, you know, if**  **17 it is January of next year or whenever it is,**  **18 what that time frame might look like so that**  **19 we're not precluded from addressing these when**  **20 we've already collected some information to**  **21 tell us there's either a potential there or**  **22 there isn't. We just don't have time to get** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that done between now and September.**  **2 And so, I don't want to be sitting**  **3 here making the decision to exclude things and**  **4 then be restricted from coming back to look at**  **5 things we've collected a bunch of information**  **6 on for six years.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Got it.**  **8 MR. ECKMAN: That just doesn't make**  **9 any sense.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck is next in the**  **11 queue. Thanks for being patient, Chuck.**  **12 MR. POWERS: Flowserve builds a lot**  **13 of these products we're talking about in the**  **14 yellow. Just some basic parameters.**  **15 First off, Alison, I think you**  **16 guys did a good job, but we need to expand**  **17 these definitions.**  **18 Yesterday I told you about like**  **19 the one on the submersible and you corrected**  **20 it, but these when we just say axially split,**  **21 that's not good enough.**  **22 Now, when you go over to the right** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 and you put BB1, good. But if you go to BB1,**  **2 there's eight words in that definition which**  **3 helps clarify it.**  **4 Now, going forward with that when**  **5 you look at the parameters of 200 horsepower,**  **6 when you look at the parameters of clean water**  **7 as we've defined it or we're going to define**  **8 it in all those attributes, a horizontally**  **9 split case multistage unit, okay, you're not**  **10 going to find very many made below 200**  **11 horsepower, you know, because I know the size**  **12 that are made and they start, they call it a**  **13 three-by-ten. So does Charlie.**  **14 And I'll tell you a three-by-ten,**  **15 the minimum number of stages is three stages.**  **16 And that thing is right off the bat at 500**  **17 horse, all right?**  **18 So, I mean, I'm not trying to save**  **19 time. I don't want you to take my word for**  **20 it, because you're going to want to do your**  **21 thing, but I think we're going to be wasting**  **22 a lot of time that the EU and I'm not trying** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 to invoke what they've done, they've studied**  **2 this. They've spent a lot of time on this and**  **3 there are pumps out there and all.**  **4 But when you look at the BB4s,**  **5 which is the segment of ring-type designs we**  **6 call it, when you look between the bearings,**  **7 radial split between bearings, not the axial**  **8 split, right, we're talking these are**  **9 engineered, these start to become, you know,**  **10 more, you know, and some of these you won't**  **11 find below 10-inch pumps. Okay. Now, to you**  **12 that may mean nothing, but that's well above**  **13 200 horse, alright?**  **14 I'm not, again, I'm not trying to**  **15 talk you into it, but you get the point. You**  **16 get into barrel pumps and you get into some of**  **17 these others. Yeah, they're pumping water,**  **18 but, you know, you're now talking 5,000**  **19 horsepower and a whole different ballgame.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: So, maybe we need to**  **21 return to the definitions and maybe it gets**  **22 relevant to what Greg was saying earlier that** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 non-custom and non-engineered products, that**  **2 that's what you were trying to cover in the**  **3 descriptor is the one to 200 clean water --**  **4 MR. POWERS: Right. And what I'm**  **5 trying to say is what Alison and the team are**  **6 trying to do is excellent. But if someone,**  **7 because last night I called a couple people**  **8 that said they gave her data. And I said,**  **9 what were the questions you got?**  **10 Well, they said axial. Nothing**  **11 else. Or they said this or we didn't know,**  **12 Chuck, 200 horsepower.**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: That is not true,**  **14 just throwing it out there.**  **15 MR. POWERS: Because we also got**  **16 the request, okay. My point is yesterday you**  **17 said you were not very clear saying did they**  **18 get this --**  **19 MS. WILLIAMS: We did give them the**  **20 crosswalk to the HI nomenclature and they did**  **21 have the 200 horsepower limit.**  **22 MR. POWERS: Did they get this** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 chart, the exclusion chart? 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's keep**  **3 moving on here. 4 MR. POWERS: Did they get the full**  **5 parameters on the range and stuff? 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. They did**  **7 not get the full parameters. 8 MR. POWERS: That's what I'm --**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: But these shipments 10 are --**  **11 MR. POWERS: Alison, if you gave 12 them the full definition of each of these**  **13 other than one, and you gave them these, I'm 14 wondering if their looking at it would be**  **15 different. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: We're getting your**  **17 point. 18 MR. POWERS: Okay.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: So, here's what I, 20 Mark you are next, and then I'm going to see**  **21 if I can summarize where I think we are. 22 MR. HANDZEL: And I also just want** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 to, you know, piling on with Chuck to an**  **2 extent, but, Alison, I mean, we all spent a**  **3 heck of a lot of time doing your surveys this**  **4 summer.**  **5 MS. WILLIAMS: And we appreciate**  **6 that.**  **7 MR. HANDZEL: And I'm sorry, but**  **8 the data that you presented yesterday really**  **9 is not very good. It's not, you know. So,**  **10 what's being done to make sure the second time**  **11 that you're going to have some better data?**  **12 And obviously I just know my**  **13 company's data. I don't know anybody else's.**  **14 I don't know who, if you sent the surveys to**  **15 more companies, you know, all those things.**  **16 But, I mean, what you showed yesterday, I**  **17 don't think anybody here is comfortable making**  **18 a decision based on that data.**  **19 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. So, obviously**  **20 there was a wide variety of what we got back**  **21 from the manufacturers. Some of which**  **22 provided much better information than others.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Everyone can judge where they fit on that**  **2 scale. And, you know, for a lot of these we**  **3 don't have a lot of manufacturers in a single**  **4 category.**  **5 We are having, if anybody has, you**  **6 know, friends in the pump industry that they**  **7 want to convince to take our survey, like that**  **8 would be great, you know. We need more**  **9 coverage in certain areas that we don't have.**  **10 Not everybody is willing to**  **11 participate in these surveys. So, you know,**  **12 and we've been over what the problems with the**  **13 shipments are and we didn't really get, I**  **14 mean, we have a few suggestions to follow up**  **15 on to improve the shipments.**  **16 I will say that, I mean, the**  **17 second survey isn't really going to help our**  **18 shipments estimate that much. It might refine**  **19 it with some of the parameters and things.**  **20 It's, you know, focused on getting**  **21 some of the data that was requested, including**  **22 more desegregation by horsepower, including** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 distribution by models that we need to do the**  **2 LCC.**  **3 So, it isn't going to fix some of**  **4 these shipment estimate problems. I**  **5 definitely acknowledge that.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **7 MR. HUBER: I want to address two**  **8 things. One is these surveys are great and**  **9 we're trying to comply with them.**  **10 Let me assure you that I don't**  **11 want anybody to think that this industry is**  **12 trying to stonewall here. The problem is we**  **13 don't track this data this way.**  **14 So, what's going to take us so**  **15 long to do is we've got to send somebody back**  **16 into our, the archives, say, for last year and**  **17 start digging through and see for this type of**  **18 pump, what horsepower did we sell that in, you**  **19 know? Where does it fall in the range they**  **20 want it all broken up?**  **21 This takes a tremendous effort and**  **22 a lot of time. And that's the reason I** 

### Page 282

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 proposed what I proposed, because there is as**  **2 tremendous amount of information available on**  **3 the HI-proposed models.**  **4 And I think after some discussion**  **5 with some of the NGOs, not all of them, and**  **6 they need to caucus on this, that if -- I**  **7 believe if DOE will come and say that our**  **8 proposal for a phased-in approach is okay with**  **9 them and they're willing to man that for**  **10 starting next year for all the other items**  **11 here that we can't seem to get to, then I**  **12 think we can reach an agreement and get moving**  **13 with this thing and get something**  **14 accomplished.**  **15 But it's up to DOE, I think a lot**  **16 of it's up to the Department whether they can**  **17 actually do that or not.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.**  **19 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **20 Cappellino, ITT.**  **21 I just wanted to make a point on**  **22 the difference between green and yellow from** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 a market standpoint.**  **2 The items that are listed in**  **3 yellow, let's set circulators aside for a**  **4 minute. They tend to be a segment of the**  **5 market where efficiency is highly valued.**  **6 We compete intensely in the**  **7 marketplace with that kind of product where,**  **8 you know, a point of efficiency or half a**  **9 point of efficiency is something that's, you**  **10 know, it's battled out in the marketplace.**  **11 So, the point I'm trying to make**  **12 is I'm not saying we shouldn't address the**  **13 ones in yellow, but I just want everybody to**  **14 be aware that market forces have done a lot of**  **15 shaping already from an efficiency standpoint**  **16 for competitors to be able to offer and**  **17 present the best efficiency they can.**  **18 When you get into some of the**  **19 green areas, a basic water pump and such, you**  **20 know, those competitive forces aren't**  **21 necessarily as strong. The power levels are**  **22 lower and such. So, there may be some more** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 opportunity there.**  **2 So, I just wanted to kind of throw**  **3 that on the table for everybody to understand**  **4 that different segments of the market, the**  **5 efficiencies have been more or less formed by**  **6 competitive forces. So, just a general**  **7 comment and statement.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. The final**  **9 comment, Steve.**  **10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm going to ask a**  **11 question maybe a different way with -- and**  **12 I'll just kind of focus on the ones in green.**  **13 I believe that this represents what the**  **14 manufacturers have agreed to cover so far.**  **15 So, my question, I'm going to kind**  **16 of high level, is for the items in green even**  **17 with knowledge of possibly very low shipments**  **18 and possibly lower energy efficiency**  **19 potential, does the group agree to go forward**  **20 with them in this process?**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: By the voting we've**  **22 done so far, the pump types in green and** 

### Page 285

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 yellow are presently considered in scope.**  **2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I just**  **3 wanted to take it one step further. Just for**  **4 the ones in green if there is low shipments**  **5 and if there is low potential, do we still go**  **6 forward? Because that would also because of**  **7 our economies of scale and because of what's**  **8 happening in Europe, we go forward anyway**  **9 because there would still be some progress to**  **10 be made with those categories.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: So, being as how**  **12 it's just about time to go to lunch, you've**  **13 given me a perfect opportunity to summarize.**  **14 Several individuals in the room --**  **15 oh, Lucas, go ahead.**  **16 MR. ADIN: Just one rather**  **17 important point I wanted to make before we go**  **18 to lunch since it's been asked about a couple**  **19 of times and it's the feasibility of doing**  **20 some kind of phased approach or, you know,**  **21 essentially how we would deal with some of**  **22 these things we might potentially exclude as** 

### Page 286

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 part of this proceeding.**  **2 And at least from a legal**  **3 standpoint, there's no problem with that, we**  **4 can do that. We're comfortable with that.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: You can make a**  **6 commitment that way.**  **7 MR. ADIN: Well, we can do it,**  **8 right. We can do a phased approach or we can**  **9 do a, you know, a second rulemaking on these**  **10 other products. And we can do it at any time.**  **11 We can finish this one and**  **12 immediately go into that one. It's really**  **13 just a question of the practical aspects, the**  **14 feasibility for the program and our resources.**  **15 And that's something that we'd have to look at**  **16 more carefully and before we can make some**  **17 kind of commitment, you know, as to exactly**  **18 what we could do, timing, all that stuff.**  **19 We wouldn't want to commit to**  **20 anything without, you know, realistically**  **21 being able to do it, obviously. So, we want**  **22 to take a look at that, talk amongst our group** 

### Page 287

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 and see what we can actually do.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Al, follow-on**  **3 question.**  **4 MR. HUBER: Just a question for**  **5 Lucas quickly to consider. How long do you**  **6 think it will be before you'll be able to give**  **7 this group an answer to that question?**  **8 MR. ADIN: I mean, I'd love to be**  **9 able to give you that answer today, but I**  **10 don't, I'm not sure. I think we might have to**  **11 look at kind of the broader program, what our**  **12 priorities are in the next year or so and see.**  **13 So, I suspect that we could**  **14 probably do it before the next meeting. I**  **15 don't think we'd have to wait until then.**  **16 MR. HUBER: Well, it's kind of,**  **17 it's very important to the NGOs. And I know**  **18 to Gary and to Tom and Louis, they don't want**  **19 to agree to just the green if they know it's**  **20 ten years from now before we start on the**  **21 second one.**  **22 MR. ADIN: Right.** 

### Page 288

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. HUBER: And I don't blame them**  **2 for that. And so, that's the reason this is**  **3 really important to know as soon as possible.**  **4 And if we could narrow the scope**  **5 down to start moving, then we could really**  **6 make some progress and make this date.**  **7 MR. ADIN: And I understand that**  **8 completely. And if I could provide you my**  **9 personal assurance right now that we could do**  **10 that, I would.**  **11 (Laughter.)**  **12 MR. ADIN: But my bosses have**  **13 something to say about it, too. And so, at**  **14 the very least I'm going to talk to some folks**  **15 over lunch and see what we can do, like what**  **16 kind of questions we need to answer for**  **17 ourselves before we can make any kind of**  **18 commitment about that.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Final, final comment**  **20 from Gary.**  **21 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **22 IOUs.** 

### Page 289

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Al, I think this whole thing is**  **2 going to converge in a few weeks. We'll have**  **3 some test results. We'll know what DOE is**  **4 able to do or not do. We'll probably have a**  **5 little more refined market data. I think we**  **6 can come to a resolution pretty soon.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, to summarize and**  **8 go to lunch, wanted to make sure that we**  **9 provided in this last discussion segment an**  **10 opportunity for the industry members to float**  **11 their proposals particularly about all the**  **12 items, the pump types in yellow, and whether**  **13 other members of the Committee, or I should**  **14 say the working group, would be willing to go**  **15 with a phased schedule as Al and others have**  **16 described.**  **17 They have come back, members of**  **18 the energy efficiency caucus have come back**  **19 and said again as they have previously, they**  **20 want to see the data and that all of these**  **21 items in yellow are still wanting to be**  **22 considered.** 

### Page 290

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 And though, as Gary just said, 2 hopefully in the not too distant future when**  **3 the surveys are completed when the analysis 4 continues, that we can move towards deciding**  **5 what to do with the items in yellow and also 6 the items in green.**  **7 Okay. So, that's where we are. 8 It's now 12:25. We've really made a lot of**  **9 progress today and yesterday. We've got when 10 we return from lunch at 1:25, we only have a**  **11 little more than an hour. 12 I'd like to return to discussion**  **13 of possible definitions of covered product, 14 the clean water definition, general**  **15 description of pump components and then 16 finally agenda setting for the next meeting.**  **17 Okay. So, think about those 18 things over lunch. If you wish to meet with**  **19 your caucus, please do so. We'll resume here 20 at 1:25 right here in this room.**  **21 So, thanks for a really good 22 morning. We've covered a lot of ground.** 

### Page 291

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 (Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m. the**  **2 meeting went off the record for a lunch break**  **3 and went back on the record at 1:39 p.m.)**  **4 MR . POWERS: The only thing is**  **5 it's kind of fine but just kind of okay, but**  **6 two things. One, back here there's a chart**  **7 which we probably won't be able to get to**  **8 today which talks about the agriculture of**  **9 farming, and I have some comments I want to**  **10 make towards this. But it shows there, and**  **11 it's just one category, one area, that the**  **12 natural gas or the engine, whatever, is very,**  **13 very small percentages of the overall**  **14 electric, right? That's in one market, one**  **15 area, number one.**  **16 And number two, if we are going to**  **17 go with engines and all, now we've got to**  **18 start, because I don't think DOE has a**  **19 classification on their efficiency or their**  **20 coding or whatever, and that's fine, but we're**  **21 going to expect somebody to come to us and say**  **22 here's what the power should be for that if** 

### Page 292

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 we're going to hook it up to a pump, right?**  **2 MR. ADIN: Right. So understand**  **3 that simply defining it this way doesn't**  **4 necessarily obligate us to write a standard**  **5 specifically for pumps that use that kind of**  **6 driver. It means that it could mean that and**  **7 we could write standards for those types of**  **8 pumps, whether in this proceeding or another**  **9 one. It just means that term "driver,"**  **10 generally, could be any of those things.**  **11 MR. POWERS: Okay. And, Lucas,**  **12 this is my opinion. Once you put an engine on**  **13 something, the third item of VFD is done.**  **14 I've never seen a VFD and an engine and a**  **15 pump, to a certain degree.**  **16 MR. ADIN: Well, understood.**  **17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **18 EEI. That's fine, but there can be other**  **19 controls or other engine technology that makes**  **20 the engine more efficient. I mean, I'm not,**  **21 I'm not trying to restrict it. You see some**  **22 of these, on the slide there's a significant** 

### Page 293

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 number that are using diesel in certain of the**  **2 categories. They are market competitors, and**  **3 so there might be technologies for that**  **4 engine. It's not a VFD, obviously, but it**  **5 could be some other, I'll say, diesel engine**  **6 or gas engine technology that makes that**  **7 diesel or gas engine more efficient to save**  **8 energy, which is what the rulemaking is all**  **9 about.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: You've been**  **11 consistent in your advocacy for fuel**  **12 neutrality. Mark?**  **13 MR. HANDZEL: I was just going to**  **14 say just kind of a semantics thing, but where**  **15 it says mechanical equipment is equipment, I**  **16 would just say mechanical equipment is a**  **17 component or some word like that. Just not**  **18 repeat equipment. Just a nit. Or any**  **19 component because you might have a few.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good. What**  **21 about controls? Do you like controls? The**  **22 driver. Yes? It's good, okay. So then we're** 

### Page 294

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 not going to try to vote on it or anything**  **2 today, but just a notation we'll make for the**  **3 record that the working group has looked at**  **4 this and, at this point, they like it.**  **5 So now let's talk about**  **6 exclusions.**  **7 MR. HANDZEL: Just a question.**  **8 I'm sorry.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Please do, Mark.**  **10 MR. HANDZEL: Will we get copies**  **11 of this? Because, obviously, we've got a**  **12 meeting coming up with all of the members, and**  **13 I think some of this stuff we're going to want**  **14 to report on.**  **15 MR. ADIN: Yes, we'll post this,**  **16 and I think we have a slide or can make a**  **17 slide that will capture that, as well. We**  **18 want to make sure all of these diagrams and**  **19 notes we've been taking are all available, so**  **20 yes. So, yes, this will be included on the**  **21 SharePoint, and I expect it will be included**  **22 in the docket, too.** 

### Page 295

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: And then, as we**  **2 were talking about the scope for the**  **3 negotiation, the colorful, green/yellow/red**  **4 slide, you were updating these exclusions, if**  **5 I'm not mistaken.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I was updating**  **7 the exclusions on the green/red slide, and on**  **8 the exclusions slide I also documented what**  **9 was agreed upon in the vote. Is that what**  **10 you're getting at?**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes, yes. So**  **12 it may be hard for you to read it, but on the**  **13 left-hand side it says okay. Those items,**  **14 those one, two, three, four, five, six -- are**  **15 there seven of them? Eight of them, I think,**  **16 have been excluded. Eight. And then you also**  **17 noted Meg's comment and others about some of**  **18 these needing further definition and the ones**  **19 at the bottom to be further discussed and**  **20 determined. You guys okay? Al Huber?**  **21 MR. HUBER: Chuck was concerned**  **22 that now in the fire that now there's a** 

### Page 296

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 requirement for the UL/FM bill.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: So is it, is it --**  **3 Lucas made the point earlier about a**  **4 certification, if the term "certified" was**  **5 sufficient.**  **6 MR. ADIN: No. Doug, I'm sorry,**  **7 just to correct. My question wasn't so much**  **8 about the, I mean, I did ask about that, but**  **9 I understand that part of it. My question was**  **10 actually does it matter whether you specify**  **11 who does the certification.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I**  **13 meant.**  **14 MR. HUBER: It doesn't really**  **15 matter, but there's only two that do. And I**  **16 think, one thing for Chuck, this does not**  **17 preclude somebody from buying your regular**  **18 pump and putting it in fire pump service, if**  **19 that's what they want to do. So I don't think**  **20 this hurts you any.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?**  **22 MR. POWERS: I think, in simple** 

### Page 297

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 terms, there's a spec called NFPA 20. They**  **2 don't certify anything. It's a spec. And on**  **3 that same line, you say it's certified to**  **4 NFPA, and nobody is going to certify anything**  **5 to NFPA 20. You're going to build a product**  **6 to API 610, to NFPA 20. You're going to get**  **7 it certified under UL/FM label.**  **8 MR. HUBER: Yes, but what they're**  **9 certifying is that the pump actually meets**  **10 NFPA 20, Chuck. That's what they're**  **11 certifying to. But he's got a commercial**  **12 issue, and I'm going to try to help him with**  **13 this real quickly. Just because it says it**  **14 here and they're not going to be regulated, it**  **15 doesn't mean that your pump that you've been**  **16 selling into that market for certain customers**  **17 who don't care about having a certification,**  **18 nothing in this regulation will prevent you**  **19 from doing that. So it has no impact on you.**  **20 MR. POWERS: Well, I won't be**  **21 voting on this one because the way it's**  **22 written is incorrect.** 

### Page 298

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: It was already**  **2 voted on.**  **3 MR. HUBER: Yes, it was already**  **4 voted on.**  **5 MR. POWERS: We voted on --**  **6 there's two at the bottom we didn't vote on,**  **7 right?**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. We didn't**  **9 vote on the two at the bottom. We voted on**  **10 the others.**  **11 MR. HUBER: But we voted on --**  **12 MR. POWERS: But we also said we**  **13 could make changes to exclusions or add to it,**  **14 right?**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes. Then**  **16 we'll take another vote. Lucas?**  **17 MR. ADIN: Let me just make a --**  **18 maybe it's more of a question really, but we**  **19 voted on exclusions generally, these**  **20 categories, but we didn't vote on definitions**  **21 or anything for them, like to specify exactly**  **22 what they are I don't think.** 

### Page 299

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. HUBER: Well, I think, I think**  **2 -- Al Huber, Patterson. I believe the NGOs**  **3 believe that that's up there, and they're not**  **4 going to be comfortable voting for it unless**  **5 it is. I don't want to put words in their**  **6 mouth --**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That was the**  **8 nature of the discussion that I recall.**  **9 Right.**  **10 MR. HUBER: Yes. And then I**  **11 re-explained exactly what all that meant.**  **12 MR. ADIN: Well, I remember that**  **13 being the case for some of them. I just want**  **14 to make sure it's clear which ones. So we've**  **15 got that up there, and that's part of how**  **16 we're defining what fire pumps are for these**  **17 purposes.**  **18 MR. HUBER: For fire pump, I think**  **19 that's fine. What you've got up there is**  **20 fine.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So**  **22 maybe the two of you can talk a little bit** 

### Page 300

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 about this. Yes, okay. And noting, as Alison**  **2 has at the bottom, Marine, Navy, nuclear**  **3 pumps, and sanitary pumps are still an issue**  **4 to be determined. Then parameters. HI**  **5 standards parameters proposal. So we**  **6 clarified as we were finishing this discussion**  **7 on parameters this applies, as reflected in**  **8 the top line, for HI-recommended pumps.**  **9 That's the kind of singular overview here.**  **10 And then we added pumps designed for clean**  **11 water and these other clarifications. Can you**  **12 read them? Is the font large enough?**  **13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug?**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  **15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi, Steve**  **16 Rosenstock, EEI. In the first one, you know,**  **17 based on our discussion of the definition, I**  **18 don't know if you want to add in seawater.**  **19 And I know it says including glycol, but, just**  **20 to be on the comprehensive side, is including**  **21 antifreeze additives. That's the way the**  **22 definition seems to work. It's not just** 

### Page 301

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 glycol. It could be some other product that**  **2 provides the same antifreeze protection.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay.**  **4 MR. ADIN: Actually, I have a**  **5 question about that one. It says that the**  **6 additives should not be counted, but is there,**  **7 like, a particular, like, limit on how much**  **8 can be in there? Does it matter?**  **9 MR. HUBER: I don't think they**  **10 address that.**  **11 MR. ADIN: Okay. Is there any**  **12 reason to that you know of?**  **13 MR. HUBER: No.**  **14 MR. ADIN: No.**  **15 MR. HUBER: No, we're all**  **16 comfortable with it.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And there**  **18 was a big discussion on two and four -- yes?**  **19 I'm sorry, Tom. Go ahead.**  **20 MR. ECKMAN: This is for the pump**  **21 manufacturers. Given that the additive is**  **22 going to potentially change the viscosity of** 

### Page 302

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 the fluid, is that going to have an effect on**  **2 the test? I mean, can you, you know, game it**  **3 or get a misread or something like that? I**  **4 just don't know. I'm asking you guys.**  **5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **6 As she put up on the board earlier, she put a**  **7 definition of clean water and then she put a**  **8 definition of clean water as tests. All tests**  **9 with all pumps across the world in everybody's**  **10 lab is clean, clear water no higher than 85**  **11 degrees. That's it. That's the worldwide**  **12 standard.**  **13 MS. WIDDER: This is Sarah from**  **14 PNNL. I think maybe you referred to the**  **15 testing clean water characteristic as, like,**  **16 testing, test fluid characteristics or test**  **17 fluid conditions --**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah, you're going**  **19 in and out. Stand up. Move over here.**  **20 MS. WIDDER: Oh, it's on. Okay.**  **21 Anyway, so just to clear it up so we're not**  **22 defining two different types of clean water** 

### Page 303

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 because I can see how that can be confusing**  **2 and that this definition of clean water**  **3 actually doesn't have anything to do with**  **4 testing. Right.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good. So I**  **6 think we had adequate discussion on virtually**  **7 all of these. Additional comments on any of**  **8 these? Nothing additional? Okay. So we're**  **9 still waiting for our continuing scrutiny and**  **10 discussion on the scope for this negotiation**  **11 and how that fits with the possible definition**  **12 of a covered product. So we're not going to**  **13 do anything on this now, but I'm, in my own**  **14 mind, I'm going to think that, while**  **15 definition of a covered product is unsettled,**  **16 a general description of the pump component is**  **17 pretty darn settled, exclusion is pretty darn**  **18 settled, and parameters are pretty darn**  **19 settled. Go ahead, Mark.**  **20 MR. HANDZEL: Just looking at the**  **21 bottom of this slide -- Mark Handzel from**  **22 Xylem -- it mentions HI will accept clean** 

### Page 304

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 water definition. So we have that now. Do we**  **2 need to leave those notes in there, Alison?**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I guess --**  **4 have we agreed to this definition?**  **5 MR. HANDZEL: No, but I'm just**  **6 saying HI no longer needs to provide it**  **7 because you --**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, oh, oh, oh.**  **9 MR. HANDZEL: So I'm not saying we**  **10 agreed. I'm just saying . . .**  **11 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. That was the**  **12 only topic on which you were going to provide**  **13 clarification?**  **14 MR. HUBER: I'm not pushing to**  **15 have to vote on everything, but some of these**  **16 things, like the definition of clean water,**  **17 why you couldn't vote and get that out of the**  **18 way. I mean --**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd be happy to do**  **20 it. Shall we do that? Yes? Joanna?**  **21 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I was**  **22 just curious whether DOE has kind of evaluated** 

### Page 305

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 the definition or has any comments or . . .**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: Of clean water?**  **3 MS. MAUER: Yes.**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, this is**  **5 Alison. What we have done is look at it to**  **6 see what it would encompass, and it would**  **7 encompass, we are primarily interested if it**  **8 got to seawater and that type of thing, and it**  **9 does. I wouldn't say we've really evaluated**  **10 it in any other way.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: And I was looking**  **12 over at Sarah because of the test procedure,**  **13 test fluids, or whatever you call it,**  **14 implications.**  **15 MR. ADIN: This isn't a test**  **16 procedure issue.**  **17 MS. WIDDER: This is Sarah. I**  **18 think, yes, this is not the test fluid. This**  **19 has nothing to do with the test procedure. I**  **20 think, in general, this is just trying to**  **21 categorize pumps that, in the field, are**  **22 intended to pump fluids, like clean water.** 

### Page 306

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?**  **2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **3 EEI. Do you want to add that as a note to**  **4 this slide for clarification?**  **5 MS. WILLIAMS: But there's a**  **6 separate definition for testing.**  **7 MR. ADIN: So, I mean, just to**  **8 expand a little bit on what Alison said. I**  **9 mean, there was some discussion in the**  **10 framework document about this subject. I**  **11 mean, seawater is part of it, gray water is**  **12 part of it. I mean, it's beyond just potable**  **13 water or purely clean water. I mean, it**  **14 encompasses a pretty broad range of things, so**  **15 I don't know that we have specific concerns**  **16 about how this might constrain coverage purely**  **17 based on this definition. I don't know if**  **18 that answers your question.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?**  **20 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I don't**  **21 have any specific concerns. I think I was**  **22 thinking more just, perhaps from an** 

### Page 307

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 enforcement perspective, is it, you know,**  **2 crystal clear which physical pumps meet that**  **3 definition?**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So are you**  **5 comfortable voting on clean water, the**  **6 definition?**  **7 MS. WIDDER: I think we should**  **8 respond to Joanna's question.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so this is**  **10 Alison. So in the framework document, we had**  **11 proposed defining clean water pumps instead of**  **12 clean water, and the outcome of the framework**  **13 meeting was essentially that the manufacturers**  **14 did not feel as though we could define clean**  **15 water pumps using physical characteristics,**  **16 and they wanted to go with the defined clean**  **17 water approach and make sure there's**  **18 exclusions to get at any sort of wiggle room**  **19 that there would be with only defining clean**  **20 water. So that was the last of the discussion**  **21 that happened on this topic so . . .**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?** 

### Page 308

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. POWERS: I think, and maybe**  **2 I'm wrong, we're not trying to define the pump**  **3 type up here. What is being pumped? That's**  **4 what it's all about. We're trying to say is**  **5 it seawater, is it clean water, is it**  **6 whatever, not that it's oil and gas or other**  **7 things. We're trying to say -- you know what**  **8 I mean? You're not trying to define the pump**  **9 there, you're trying to say what is the**  **10 definition of what you are pumping. And then**  **11 you have the parameters, I believe, of a pump**  **12 on this other one saying within these**  **13 parameters and then you go from there.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?**  **15 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. So, you**  **16 know, if DOE is to go and take a pump off of**  **17 a shelf, would they be able to tell whether**  **18 it's a pump for pumping clean water, I guess,**  **19 is essentially the question I'm asking.**  **20 MS. WIDDER: Right. And to back**  **21 up what Joanna -- this is Sarah from PNNL --**  **22 to back up the point Joanna is making, there's** 

### Page 309

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 actually no point in defining clean water,**  **2 other than the test fluid. There's no point**  **3 in defining this definition if we're not going**  **4 to use it for the purposes of determining**  **5 coverage of pumps. So if you can't use this**  **6 definition of clean water to say this is a**  **7 pump that's designed for pumping clean water**  **8 and this is a pump that's designed for pumping**  **9 oil and gas, then we don't need to have this**  **10 definition at all.**  **11 MR. POWERS: But you do because**  **12 there is variances between those products.**  **13 There is certain pumps you can go up to and**  **14 see that it is definitely a sewage pump when**  **15 you take it apart and look at the internals or**  **16 whatever, and there's some that are not. But**  **17 I'm going to make it simple for you. You**  **18 start and put parameters of 200, you know,**  **19 horsepower and things like that for that same**  **20 purpose, also. You can't go up to a pump and**  **21 necessarily, right off the second, look and**  **22 say, oh, that's a 300 horse pump or that's a** 

### Page 310

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 200 horse pump.**  **2 MS. WIDDER: Right. No, I think**  **3 we're on the same page there. We were just**  **4 saying that this is, just like 200 horsepower,**  **5 a criteria that we're using to shrink down**  **6 from the universe of pumps to the pumps that**  **7 we might want to consider for coverage in this**  **8 meeting cycle. And it's going to be one of**  **9 those criteria, and what Joanna is asking is**  **10 is that a quantifiable or objective enough**  **11 criteria that us non-pump manufacturers can go**  **12 out and, you know, is it listed in**  **13 manufacturer literature what the pump is**  **14 designed -- is there a way that people who**  **15 aren't as familiar with the products can**  **16 effectively use that as a criteria? Does that**  **17 make sense?**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, it looks like**  **19 you're tracking this.**  **20 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes. Greg Towsley,**  **21 Grundfos. If you look at this as a**  **22 characteristic in selecting a pump, if you go** 

### Page 311

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 outside the parameters, either with the solid**  **2 sides or the maximum dissolved solid content**  **3 or even the temperature, then your pump design**  **4 starts changing and you start getting into**  **5 what we just excluded with solids handling or**  **6 API or something else. So I guess I see this**  **7 as a characteristic of the pump design that**  **8 falls within the qualification of the**  **9 parameters of 200 horsepower, of those kind of**  **10 things.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?**  **12 MR. ADIN: This is actually kind**  **13 of returning to a principle that we had kind**  **14 of explored earlier, I think. It might have**  **15 been yesterday. But, in one sense, you could**  **16 define these pumps as being designed for clean**  **17 water. I mean, that's one approach you could**  **18 take. But the other is to define the**  **19 characteristics, like it has these**  **20 characteristics which are meant for pumping**  **21 clean water and really nothing else. Like,**  **22 they would need these other things. Is that** 

### Page 312

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 kind of the distinction that we're looking at**  **2 making? Because, I mean, you could say it's**  **3 just for clean water, but I think that might**  **4 be kind of what we're struggling with a little**  **5 bit here is whether use of the term clean**  **6 water alone serves the purpose that we're**  **7 trying to get to.**  **8 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Just to expand**  **9 on that, what I was saying, we may not need**  **10 this definition if we're not going to use it**  **11 as a criteria. To your point about there's**  **12 different characteristics for pumps that are**  **13 designed for pumping solids, if we could**  **14 instead define those characteristics, like**  **15 specific minimum clearances that, you know, if**  **16 a pump has a larger clearance within -- yes,**  **17 no, I recognize. I'm just giving examples of**  **18 how this might work. So we could not define**  **19 clean water and we could instead define these**  **20 measurable quantities that we could use to**  **21 define the types of pumps we're attempting to**  **22 cover. And the reason that that's helpful is,** 

### Page 313

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 back to Joanna's question, is there, like, a**  **2 label on these pumps that say for clean water?**  **3 Because, otherwise, it's very difficult to**  **4 look at two pumps and know which one is**  **5 covered and which one is not if we are not**  **6 you, if we are not manufacturers ourselves.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? Louis,**  **8 please.**  **9 MR. STARR: So I assume, if you're**  **10 looking at the pump, you have the pump**  **11 submittal probably or submittal data or no?**  **12 Because then that might be on there, depending**  **13 on what kind of pump, but a lot of times it**  **14 will specify the density of fluid, which then**  **15 tells you whether it's water or not.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: I see Al is ready**  **17 to respond. Al?**  **18 MR. HUBER: I think one of the**  **19 problems is is that trying to define these**  **20 little features that you're talking about,**  **21 we've got a multitude, now we have five times,**  **22 and then we've got some in yellow that are** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 completely different types. And so these**  **2 tolerances and these high areas and all the**  **3 rest of this change. So then you're going to**  **4 get so complicated that you've got to define**  **5 all these little things to try to say it's**  **6 really clean water. Now, if we can't figure**  **7 out in this room what we're trying to pump,**  **8 how in the world are we ever going to write a**  **9 standard or a regulation?**  **10 I'm serious now. In all**  **11 seriousness, we said we thought, when you put**  **12 out your framework document, you intended**  **13 pumps that pump clean water, so now here's the**  **14 definition for it. I assume that's what we're**  **15 trying to do. I'm getting real frustrated**  **16 with this continual over and over nitpicking,**  **17 worrying about somebody cheating. The only**  **18 people who are going to get hurt are the pump**  **19 manufacturers if somebody cheats, and, believe**  **20 me, we're going to be watching it and we're**  **21 going to be trying to make it as tight as we**  **22 can.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: So we understand**  **2 the problem, and I don't think anyone**  **3 disagrees that we want to cover clean water**  **4 pumps only. We're just pointing out that DOE**  **5 has to be able to tell from what we define**  **6 whether the clean water pump and what is not.**  **7 And so the path we've been going down is to**  **8 define clean water, which may or may not be**  **9 objectively measurable. So if we think a pump**  **10 is clean water, and it doesn't fall into any**  **11 of the exclusions, DOE would have to assume**  **12 that it was a clean water pump, I think, is**  **13 the path that has been gone down.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, you want to**  **15 keep going?**  **16 MR. HUBER: Yes, I think what I**  **17 want to tell you is, in the HI proposal, all**  **18 of those are clean water pumps. Everybody in**  **19 this room will agree to that. And I think**  **20 that, without exception, under this definition**  **21 that's up there that everything in yellow is**  **22 also a clean water pump.** 

### Page 316

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Now, let me finish. Axial/mixed**  **2 flow can be both solids and clean water.**  **3 Positive displacement can be clean water, but**  **4 it also can be something else.**  **5 MR. POWERS: But I also think, you**  **6 know, trying to get this to a point we get**  **7 something done. And to Al's point, we're not**  **8 trying to say we list every pump on the shelf**  **9 and you go buy it. One example I can give**  **10 you, which needs to be corrected because it's**  **11 on that other slide, we talk about four and**  **12 six-inch submersibles. They're individual**  **13 bowls, right? They're sitting somewhere.**  **14 That same bowl can be put together with a**  **15 motor and used on condensate extraction below**  **16 the city of Chicago in a gas well, cast iron,**  **17 whatever. But it doesn't say on the shelf**  **18 "I'm a water pump." It's a bowl sitting there**  **19 going into a natural gas, something, whatever.**  **20 So you have several parameters.**  **21 Not one thing is going to do it. But when you**  **22 tie the type of fluid, you tie the other** 

### Page 317

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 parameters, which is good, right? And you're**  **2 tying exclusions, people, you know, again,**  **3 reading all three, you're going to nail down**  **4 and say, you know, he may say, oh, oh, that's**  **5 not a water pump. Okay, hold on. Is it**  **6 pumping up to 200 horse? Yes. Is it, you**  **7 know, take a sample of -- pretty soon, if he's**  **8 lying or playing games, it's going to be**  **9 pretty --**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Final comment,**  **11 Mark.**  **12 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **13 Xylem. So, Sarah, your question: how do we**  **14 know if it's a clean water pump?**  **15 MS. WIDDER: You guys know.**  **16 MR. HANDZEL: In the industry, the**  **17 only time we assume it's a solids-handling**  **18 pump is when the submittal that Louis**  **19 referenced says solids-handling and lists the**  **20 size. Everything else is clean water pumps.**  **21 I mean, for the most part, I think that's our,**  **22 in a general statement, I think that's, you** 

### Page 318

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 know, kind of the way that we did. When we**  **2 specify that the pump can handle solids, it's**  **3 on the submittal and we say it can do it.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, go ahead.**  **5 MR. HUBER: Well, I know you're**  **6 saying you can't go look, but I can tell you**  **7 that the people who are in the marketplace,**  **8 they know. We have no confusion. Nobody ever**  **9 comes to us and says is this a clean water**  **10 pump or is that a sewage pump? No, they don't**  **11 do that because we're using the product. They**  **12 know. Believe me, they know, and it is not a**  **13 problem. So if you're worried about the**  **14 marketplace, and that's what it sounded like**  **15 you were worried about -- well, no, you said**  **16 --**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: No, we're worried**  **18 about verification and enforcement is all. So**  **19 I think that we understand, totally agree. I**  **20 think what Chuck has laid out is, you know,**  **21 the process you would step through.**  **22 MR. HANDZEL: And with that** 

### Page 319

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 process, I've got to speak up here, with that**  **2 process keep adding notes. We have clean**  **3 water paragraph, period, okay? You have**  **4 parameters, period. Pretty soon, it's going**  **5 to turn into an encyclopedia, and it's going**  **6 to be confusion by default, right?**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: But the**  **8 counterpoint is that, in previous discussion**  **9 in this very same meeting, you and others have**  **10 talked about the need for specificity in**  **11 definitions and all of that. So you can see**  **12 why we're seeking clarity here. I'm going to**  **13 move on. Steve, go ahead. Final comment.**  **14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **15 EEI. Just a quick follow up to your fourth**  **16 bullet, is this a measurable characteristic?**  **17 Measurable by who?**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: Never mind. Ignore**  **19 it.**  **20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So let's**  **22 move on. Yes, Laura?** 

### Page 320

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Sorry. Just**  **2 one, one comment for this. So you would**  **3 typically see ethylene glycol or propylene**  **4 glycol for use in building systems, right?**  **5 Take negative 10 degrees Celsius will get you**  **6 25 percent by volume concentration for**  **7 ethylene or propylene glycol. Typically, you**  **8 would use an industrially-inhibited product.**  **9 The 50 kilograms per meter cubed solid content**  **10 is fine because you're not going to take into**  **11 account anything to get you to that 25 percent**  **12 and only looking at what the solids are**  **13 dissolved in that fluid after the 25 percent.**  **14 So, really, what gets you from 25 percent to**  **15 35 percent, 30 or 35 percent, like taxes. So**  **16 the government is going to tax you at this**  **17 rate for this amount of salary that you make**  **18 and then a higher rate for that, so you're not**  **19 even looking at what's below. You have 15**  **20 kilograms per meter cubed to get you from**  **21 about 10 percent of glycol at 40 degrees**  **22 Celsius, so you're really fine with this** 

### Page 321

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 definition.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.**  **3 We're moving on now. We have 12 minutes left,**  **4 and then we're going to adjourn. I wanted to**  **5 ask you to focus on the final item on the**  **6 agenda here, which is agenda setting for the**  **7 next meeting.**  **8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug, you didn't**  **9 want to vote on -- Steve Rosenstock --**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: No, no, I don't.**  **11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, all right.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: No, we're going to**  **13 let this settle a little bit is what we're**  **14 going to do, although I thought the last**  **15 conversation was very useful and it was very**  **16 helpful to hear from the consultant contractor**  **17 team for us to recall why this was an issue in**  **18 the framework meeting because I had forgotten**  **19 all of that.**  **20 Agenda setting for the next**  **21 meeting. Comments on that? We will continue**  **22 to strive to define clearly the scope for this** 

### Page 322

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 negotiation. We're hopeful that the**  **2 interviews, not the interview guides, the data**  **3 requests that have been sent to manufacturers,**  **4 that those will come back and they will be,**  **5 they'll be compiled, at least some of them,**  **6 maybe many of them, and there will be some**  **7 analysis done, so that will be more data.**  **8 What else? Steve Rosenstock?**  **9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **10 EEI. Review data provided by interested**  **11 parties, such as California IOUs, and review**  **12 revised shipment estimates.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, a revision of**  **14 the existing table. Yes. And then, at that**  **15 point also, I would like at our next meeting**  **16 to confirm, vote on, and agree on these items**  **17 that we've been discussing, other than the**  **18 possible definition of covered product, that**  **19 are linked to the scope, the actual**  **20 description of scope. So any other things?**  **21 Go ahead, Gary? Tom, please.**  **22 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest** 

### Page 323

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Power. I think we'd like to hear from DOE,**  **2 the results of Lucas' conversations with John**  **3 about feasibility of handling a follow on.**  **4 MR. ADIN: So we have, obviously,**  **5 some homework to do, some legal questions to**  **6 answer, some internal program policy things to**  **7 figure out, and we will try and provide**  **8 answers to those really as soon as we can,**  **9 certainly before the next meeting.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Tom?**  **11 MR. ECKMAN: I think that would**  **12 aid and abet our discussions to getting to**  **13 closure on scope and how we march down the**  **14 field. It would be real beneficial.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that's a**  **16 lot of the list right there.**  **17 MR. ADIN: Well, and the other**  **18 thing, and I think I mentioned it earlier,**  **19 is, since we probably will be revisiting these**  **20 issues in metric and test procedure in the**  **21 next meeting, DOE was going to try to come up**  **22 with a more specific conceptual explanation of** 

### Page 324

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 how we think this could work. We gave some**  **2 general ideas today, but we'll try and be a**  **3 lot more specific about these different**  **4 elements and bring up some of the questions**  **5 that we've encountered as we've looked at**  **6 these things, you know, in principle, how**  **7 would these things work, what are the**  **8 different elements that would have to be**  **9 considered, you know, in the test, and present**  **10 options, where appropriate, that kind of**  **11 thing, so that we can really have a more**  **12 substantive debate than we had this time.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: I was unclear on**  **14 one point. Has DOE confirmed that you need to**  **15 have this single metric? Is that a matter of**  **16 convenience? Is it a matter of statute? Is**  **17 it something that requires some --**  **18 MS. KOHL: We had understood that**  **19 the metric discussion, and this was when the**  **20 lawyers were out of the room discussing these**  **21 other issues, but the group had progressed**  **22 with the metrics discussion such that we** 

### Page 325

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 didn't necessarily need to provide analysis**  **2 for that right now. We've got enough on our**  **3 plate. But we thought that significant**  **4 progress had been made on the metrics concept**  **5 earlier today.**  **6 MR. HANDZEL: Doug, just a**  **7 comment. I mean, from the pump manufacturers'**  **8 perspective, that is not true, Betsy. We**  **9 definitely still believe that we need MEI and**  **10 EEI, and the only way that we can think of**  **11 getting around it is that if we made MEI a**  **12 component of EEI, you know. But it still, you**  **13 know, MEI is the one that drives what we do.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?**  **15 MR. ADIN: Well, we'll talk about**  **16 that in more detail next time. I actually**  **17 don't personally think we're that far from**  **18 doing what it is that you want to do. I just**  **19 think we haven't really explained it quite the**  **20 right way. So I think we actually do want the**  **21 same thing.**  **22 MR. HANDZEL: And I think we can** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 talk about that more at our meeting coming up 2 and maybe try to give you some more guidance**  **3 around it from our perspective, so we'll see 4 if we can help.**  **5 MR. ADIN: Yes. And to the 6 extent, you know, you have discussions that**  **7 result in some kind of proposal on your side 8 that you'd like to discuss or anything else**  **9 specific that would be worthwhile considering 10 for the group, you know, that's --**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: And I also wanted 12 to add I presume that, in your discussions,**  **13 industry discussions, if you had questions, 14 comments, queries, I imagine you could access**  **15 the contractor team, right? Yes, okay. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Uh-oh.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chuck? 18 MR. POWERS: Greg was going to**  **19 take on that detailed conversion of the 20 definitions to help us. Remember we went --**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22 MR. POWERS: -- on categories and** 

### Page 327

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 stuff like that and how they were defining in**  **2 EU just to help some of the -- and then what**  **3 about Al brought up, I think it was yesterday,**  **4 about trying, whether it was trying to use HI**  **5 categories for products on the slide as best**  **6 as possible.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Nomenclature**  **8 wherever possible. We can do that, right?**  **9 MR. POWERS: If possible. I mean,**  **10 if you don't want to. I'm just saying it may**  **11 help. And then the other one was slide seven.**  **12 I might be confused, but on slide seven it**  **13 shows, and I just wanted clarification for**  **14 next time --**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: Is it -- which**  **16 slide are you looking for? This one? Okay.**  **17 MR. POWERS: It says six or**  **18 smaller. I thought we said four or six**  **19 because if you go to the very next slide,**  **20 Alison --**  **21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, it was four to**  **22 six at some point, and then I believe the end** 

### Page 328

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 of the discussion was six or smaller.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that's**  **3 where we left it.**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: But it hasn't been**  **5 --**  **6 MR. POWERS: Go the next slide.**  **7 Right there it actually says four to six, yes.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: My notes reflect**  **9 that we left it at six or smaller. We can**  **10 re-engage that later.**  **11 MS. WILLIAMS: This one has not**  **12 been okayed, so it's still on the table.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: So, finally, there**  **14 are two small items. One was that I promised**  **15 that we would revisit the start times and end**  **16 times for these dates and see whether they're**  **17 working for most people in the room, everybody**  **18 in the room. Do you want to stick with**  **19 starting at 10 on day one and ending at 6 on**  **20 day one and commencing at 8 a.m. on day two**  **21 and ending at 3 on day two? I think that**  **22 leaving, ending at 3, that's a given because** 

### Page 329

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 people need to book out of here and get to the**  **2 airport. Go ahead, Mark.**  **3 MR. HANDZEL: So from the**  **4 manufacturers' perspective, we're all here the**  **5 night before, so starting at 9 a.m. the first**  **6 day would be acceptable to us and going 9 to**  **7 6 and then 8 to 3 the second day is**  **8 acceptable, as well.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: So should we shift**  **10 the time to start at 9 a.m.? Is it going to**  **11 pinch anyone? Were you driving in, Doug?**  **12 MR. POTTS: No. Doug Potts,**  **13 American Water. So, actually, yes, two of**  **14 those dates there's some childcare issues with**  **15 my wife working that night and stuff like**  **16 that, so I would just have to be a little bit**  **17 late that day. That's the issue --**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm not**  **19 observing anybody that's complaining about**  **20 starting at 9 a.m. on the first day. Chuck?**  **21 MR. POWERS: We've got to make**  **22 sure we get the rooms sorted out because we** 

### Page 330

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 didn't even start at 10.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. I promise you**  **3 we're working on it, and sometimes the**  **4 Secretary, given his prerogatives, will seize**  **5 this room. Okay. So we're going to change**  **6 the meeting time to start on day one at 9**  **7 a.m., and should we go to 5 or 6?**  **8 MR. ADIN: Five?**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's try for 5.**  **10 And if we really do well, I'll let you out at**  **11 5. And if we don't, we'll go to 5:30. Yes,**  **12 9 to 5. And then on day two, we start at 8**  **13 and we're done at 3. Okay. That's good.**  **14 And then, finally, a few**  **15 individuals, Mark was one, Gary was another,**  **16 offered to host meetings. Gary's facility in**  **17 San Francisco and Mark's facility in Chicago.**  **18 And then Chuck, if I'm not mistaken, did you**  **19 say that we could do a site visit in Maryland?**  **20 Did I get that right? Yes, yes. And so I**  **21 just, I'm kind of ambushing Lucas here. I**  **22 asked him about the general feasibility of** 

### Page 331

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 this, and he didn't really have a good answer.**  **2 But I felt compelled to bring it up again, and**  **3 can you address this in any way?**  **4 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, I had an**  **5 answer. So I mean, generally speaking, it's**  **6 something that we could do. We would just**  **7 have to evaluate, you know, whatever proposed**  **8 location it is and figure out if it's going to**  **9 be feasible. I mean, there are budgetary**  **10 aspects and logistical aspects and whatnot.**  **11 So --**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm looking at**  **13 the calendar, and our next meeting is March**  **14 4th and 5th, and I'm wondering if we should**  **15 just plan on doing that one here in**  **16 Washington, and then think about the**  **17 subsequent meetings, March 26 and 27. They're**  **18 kind of close together. Maybe we would do**  **19 that one in another location, provided DOE can**  **20 find the budget, that's one, for travel and**  **21 other things and provided that we can assure**  **22 that we have the capacity to do webinar and** 

### Page 332

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 have a good court reporter present at one of**  **2 those other locations. Okay? So that's the**  **3 plan. We'll talk about this at our next**  **4 meeting.**  **5 And I think that's all the items**  **6 on my list. Any other thing that we need to**  **7 cover before we adjourn? Then I offer, at**  **8 this point, an opportunity for anybody to make**  **9 closing remarks. Then we're adjourned.**  **10 Steve, do you --**  **11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you, Doug.**  **12 No, thank you, Doug.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks to all of**  **14 you and safe travels. We made good progress**  **15 at this meeting. I'm pleased.**  **16 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter**  **17 was concluded at 2:59 p.m.)**  **18 19**  **20 21**  **22**

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330:12 8,000263:9 8:00 1:12 8:074:2 8076:10 124:19 85 302:10 8E-089 1:11 9NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 373

ASRAC Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting

US DOE

01-31-14

Washington, DC