BEFORE THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION OFFICE OF HEARINGtJll 

### DEC 2! P 2: 21

MICHAEL P. HUERTA 1 Acting Administrator FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION/ Complainant/ FAA No. 2012-0875

v. MOUNTAIN AVIATION 1 INC. Respondent.

Alfred A. Arraj U.S. Courthouse 901 19th Street 2nd Floor Courtroom 601 Denver/ Colorado 1

Tuesday/ November 27 1 2012. 

# RECEIVED

·DEC1**~**

### 2012 9:00 a.m. BEFORE:

(202) 234-4433 

## HEARINGDOCKET

THE HONORABLE RICHARD GOODWIN Administrative Law Judge

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com.,. 

### ""'**:~ ~::·**  lo'**.r·~:J** {4>;, (:f)**~'";.-;; ~i>;** **c,~~ ~:.Z.J** **p~** t¢x)'APPEARANCES:
For the Complainant: KYLE LOMAZOW, ESQ. FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF REGIONAL COUNSEL 1601 Lind Avenue Southwest Renton, WA 98057-3356 425.227.1847 kyle.lomazow@faa.gov

For the Respondent: KENT JACKSON, ESQ. LORI N. EDWARDS-MCGEE, ESQ. JACKSON & WADE, L.L.C. 21628 Midland Drive Shawnee, KS 66218 913.338.1700 ledwards®jetlaw.com

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 2

www.nealrgross.comCONTENTS OPENING STATEMENT by Mr. Lomazow WITNESSES FOR THE COMPLAINANT: CHRISTOPHER ANTON LANG Direct Examination by Mr. Lomazow Cross-Examination by Mr. Jackson ALVIN HAYES HANKINS Direct Examination by Mr. Lomazow . Cross-Examination by Mr. Jackson Redirect Examination by Mr. Lomazow Recross-Examination by Mr. Jackson PETER THEODORE POPP 11

17 40

54 62 77 78
Direct Examination by Mr. Lomazow . 80 Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Jackson 82 Direct Examination (continued) by Mr. Lomazow 83 Cross-Examination by Mr. Jackson 93 Redirect Examination by Mr. Lomazow 113 OPENING STATEMENT by Mr.**Jac~son** 117 WITNESSES FOR THE RESPONDENT: GARY KENT EMMERSON Direct Examination by Mr. Jackson Cross-Examination by Mr. Lomazow RICHY ALLEN BJELKEVIG Direct Examination by Mr. Jackson Cross-Examination by Mr. Lomazow

NEAL R. GROSS 119 138

146 152 3

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### EXHIBIT No. Description Reed COMPLAINANT EXHIBITS: 1 

### FAA Form 8410-3 for David Moss 24 2 

### FAA Form 8410-3 for John Kuzneski 26 

### 3 FAA Form 8410-3 for Stephanie Wells 28 4 FAA Form 8410-3 for Jeremy Sumpter 29 5 135 trip by Mountain Aviation 31 6 Letter of Investigation by Mr. Lang 32 7 Response to Letter of Investigation 34 9 Designation of check airman letter for Rodney Getty and letter for Mr. Taft 59 RESPONDENT EXHIBITS: 4 

### Form 8410 for Mr. Taft 129 5 

### Form 8410 for Mr. Getty 129 6 

### Affidavit of Gary Emmerson 130

NEAL R. GROSS 4

(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com5 1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 9:12 a.m. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go on the 4 record. Be seated. The case of Mountain 5 Aviation

-- FAAversusMountainAviation, FAA 6 No. 2012-0875. Counsel, do you want to 7 identify yourself for the record, please? 8 MR. LOMAZOW: Kyle Lomazow for the 9 Complainant. 10 MR. JACKSON: Kent Jackson for 11 Mountain Aviation. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. A couple 13 preliminary matters that Mr. Lomazow's 14 familiar with. Did you have something else, 15 Mr. Lomazow? 16 MR. LOMAZOW: No. I was going to 17 point to something in the complaint. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Let's get 19 to that in a second. 20 MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Jackson, as 22 Mr. Lomazow's familiar, everything we do here

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com6 1 goes on the Internet. So I'm going to ask 2 you, when you submit an exhibit, to please 3 redact all personal information, including 4 dates of birth, social security numbers, cell 5 numbers, home phone numbers, and everything 6 else. In today's age, it's my position that 7 none of that information belongs on the 8 Internet. 9 If we get into an area that has 10 any securityconcerns, anybusiness, financial 11 information, my suggestion is that both of you 12 confer. Even if you don't agree, I'm prone to 13 seal the record of portions of that. I don't 14 want any business information. We get a lot 15 of information in these hearings that just 16 flat out doesn't belong on the Internet 17 business records, financial records, and so 18 forth. The FAA agents, the same thing applies 19 to them. 20 I'll keep the exhibits. What I'll 21 do when a case is concluded is send everything 22 to Washington. And it will ultimately be put

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1 on the Internet. 2 As I indicated in my procedural 3 order, I am prone to allow both counsel to 4 brief the case. I find that once I get the 5 transcript, this 1s my I don't have any 6 engagement. I'm out on the road. I haven't 7 been home more than five straight days since 8 January. 9 So by the time I get the 10 transcript and review it, I've probably 11 forgotten the facts of the case. So I invite 12 the both of you to brief it. You can 13 certainly do a closing argument if you want 14 to. But I invite you to brief. 15 On the schedule

-- and I am 16 mindful that the holidays are coming up. So 17 I'm not going to make you adhere to some 18 really tight schedule with the reality of the 19 situation. 20 Government employees have 21 use-or-lose leave on the holidays. And we all 22 have holidays and family that

-- I've been on NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com8

1 your side of the bench. So I know what it's 2 like to -- to be set for trial during the 3 Christmasholidays, althoughusuallytheywere 4 always those fun cases -- custody and 5 visitation. 6 Apreliminarymatter, Mr. Lomazow? 7 MR. LOMAZOW: Yes. Just .for a 8 point of clarity, I

-- just the sanction that 9 the Complainant is seeking is 21,450. In the 10 complaint in one section, I believe on page 4 11 of 6, we indicated in one spot 21,400 and in 12 the other 21,450. So just for clarification 13 purposes, it's 21,450. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 15 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, also I 16 would like to invoke the rule of sequestration 17 for this case. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What I'm 19 going to do is instruct all the witnesses that 20 are going to testify in this case to step 21 outside the courtroom. You are not to discuss 22 your testimony with anybody during the

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1 pendency of the hearing. 2 If you have a question about 3 whether you can answer a question, talk with 4 your attorneys. Your attorneys should be 5 well-versed in the rules of sequestration. 6 I'm not sure what the configuration of the 7 building is, but I'd just let your attorneys 8 know where you are. 9 As a matter of practice, I allow 10 each side to have one expert witness who may 11 or may not be called as a witness. So the FAA 12 onlyhas

-- one of their inspectors is sitting 13 as an expert witness. You may be called. The 14 Respondent certainlyhas the same opportunity. 15 The rule applies to them that they can't 16 discuss the testimony during the pendency of 17 the hearing. 18 Any other preliminary matters? 19 MR. JACKSON: And, Your Honor, 20 just for clarification, Rich Bjelkevig is the 21 president of Mountain Aviation. He will 22 testify as a fact witness, but not as an NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com10

1 expert witness. So

... 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Well, the 3 rule

-- generally, the rule is that each side 4 has an expert -- a technical expert sits at 5 counsel table. I'm sure, Mr. Jackson, you've 6 instructed your client on the nuances of 7 judicial presentation. So I'm not going to 8 worry too much. It 1s an administrative 9 hearing. And, as I like to say, if you can 10 get the truck in the door, I'11 put an exhibit 11 number on it and admit it. 12 Any other preliminary matters? 13 MR. LOMAZOW: No, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 15 Mr. Lomazow, does the FAA have an opening 16 statement? 17 MR. LOMAZOW: Yes. Should we have 18 the witnesses step out? 19 MR. JACKSON: And should we get 20 our witnesses out of here? 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Okay. 22 Let's --it's --but

-- oh. Yeah. One other

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1 preliminary matter, if we can do this before 2 the witnesses leave. I generallybreak around 3 10:30 for about 15 minutes, break about noon 4 for an hour, hour and a half, break again 5 sometime midafternoon. 6 As my hearing notice says, the 7 hearing will conclude one way or another at 8 4:30. And we should all be out of the 9 courthouse by 5 o'clock, unless you want to 10 pay the overtime due to the CSOs for working 11 overtime. 12 Okay. With that, we'll go off the 13 record and give you a few minutes to get the 14 witnesses out of the courtroom. 15 (Off the record for about a minute 16 and then back on the record.) 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're back on the 18 record. Does the FAA have an open1ng 19 statement? 20 MR. LOMAZOW: Yes, Your Honor. 21 OPENING STATEMENT 22 BY MR. LOMAZOW:

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1 Your Honor, this case is the 2 fact pattern isn't that complicated. It's 3 about a Mountain Aviation's --a part 135 air 4 carrler. They employ a check airman named 5 Ronnie (sic) Getty. Or is it Ronald (sic) 6 Getty? And what we're alleging lS that 7 Mr. Getty was observed giving a check to 8 a check

-- to a pilot by a -- either an FAA 9 inspector or what's called an Aircrew 10 Designated Examiner. 11 And after his period to do so 12 expired, which was I believe the end of 13 September 2010, he went on to give a total of 14 six flight checks when he was not qualified to 15 do so. 16 Now, what we're alleging is CFR 17 13563A46 and that Mountain failed to give at 18 its principal office a record of a pilot used 19 in operations under part 135 that contained a 20 date and result of each of the initial and 21 recurrent competencytests andproficiencyand 22 route checks required by 14 part 135.

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1 And what we're referring to is the 2 documents for Ronald Getty showing that he 3 was, in fact, competent. We're also referring 4 to -- or we're also alleging 13595B and that 5 Mountain used the services of an airman who 6 was not qualified for the operation which the 7 airman was used. 8 The evidence will show

-- or we 9 will present evidence showing that one of the 10 airmen who was -- who received a flight check 11 from Ronald Getty

-- his name 1s Jeremy 12 Sumpter

-- he conducted a part 135 operation 13 when he was not qualified to do so. The 14 reason he was not qualified to do so 1s 15 because when he received his flight check from 16 Ronald Getty, Ronald Getty was not qualified 17 to give that check. 18 And we're also alleging 135339A2. 19 Now, this is really the heart of this

-- of 20 this case because it comes down to having 21 whether Ronald Getty was observed giving a 22 flight check by either an FAA inspector or an NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com14

1 Aircrew Designated Examiner. 2 Now, we're going to present 3 evidence that Mr. Getty did not rece1ve this 4 check within the required within the 5 required two-year period. The defense is 6 going to argue that they believe

-- excuse 7 me --that they have what's called an Aircrew 8 Designated Examiner. 9 Now, we're going to present 10 evidence showing that, one, they did not have 11 anAircrew.DesignatedExaminer and that Ronald 12 Getty was certainly not a designated examiner 13 and that they had no reason to believe that 14 they had an Aircrew Designated Examiner. And 15 at the end of the case, we believe that the 16 sanction we're asking for 21,450

-- is 17 consistent with the sanction guidelines. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, do you 19 want to argue? Or you want to reserve? 20 MR. JACKSON: I would prefer to 21 reserve. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: I mean, other than

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com15 1 you didn't do it? 2 MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry? 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Other than your 4 client didn't do it? 5 MR. JACKSON: We would like to 6 present a more complete opening at the 7 beginning of our case. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Great. 9 Counsel, do you want to call your first 10 witness? 11 MR. LOMAZOW: Sure. Complainant 12 calls Christopher Lang? 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll leave it to 14 the court reporter of whether you want to go 15 on off the record or stay on the record as 16 we it's up to you. I don't want to end up 17 with any 20-minute pauses, if you know what I 18 mean. 19 COURT REPORTER: As long as 20 they're right out there. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 22 COURT REPORTER: (Indiscernible.)

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1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. But that's 2 your call. 3 

### Stand and raise your right hand. 4 

### Do you solemnly swear the testimony you glve 5 

### will be the truth, the whole truth, and 6 

### nothing but the truth under penalty of 7 

### perjury? 8 

### THE WITNESS: I do so swear. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 10 

### State your full name for the record and spell 11 

### your first and last name. 12 

### THE WITNESS: Christopher Anton 13 

### Lang. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Could you spell 15 

### that, please? 16 

### THE WITNESS: Pardon me, Your 17 

### Honor? 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Spell it? 19 

### MR. LOMAZOW: Spell your name. 20 

### COURT REPORTER: Your name, spell 21 

### it. 22 

### THE WITNESS: Christopher,

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1 C-h-r-i-s-t-o-p-h-e-r,Anton, A-n-t-o-n, last 2 name, L-a-n-g. 3 COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. And just so 5 you know, Mr. Jackson, I've got a hearing 6 disability. So if I ask you to speak up, 7 don't take it personally. It's I literally 8 can't hear. 9 THE WITNESS: I have the 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: And this has got 11 to be one of the worst courtroom 12 configurations because it doesn't matter what 13 I do. I've got a TV screen in front of me. 14 Counsel? 15 MR. LOMAZOW: Thank you. 16 CHRISTOPHER ANTON LANG 17 called as a witness on behalf of 18 the Complainant herein, having been first duly 19 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 20 DIRECT EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 22 Q Mr. Lang, and if you -- and on the

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com18 1 same note, if you can't hear me, please let me 2 know. Okay? 3 A You probably need to speak up, 4 Counselor. 5 Q Okay. 6 A I too have a hearing disability. 7 Q Okay. Just let me know

-- 8 A Okay. 9 Q -- at any point if you can't hear 10 me. Mr. Lang, please briefly describe your 11 aviation background. 12 A I've been in aviation for 48 13 years. I currently have an airline transport 14 pilot certificate. And I had to have that for 15 scheduled multiengine service at a previous 16 job. I also have a commercial pilot's license 17 in single engine airplanes and gliders. And 18 I also have a type rating in a Learjet. 19 Q Okay. How long have you been 20 employed by the FAA? 21 A Nine years and one and a half 22 months.

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1 Q Okay. In what capacity are you 2 employed by the FAA? 3 A I'm an Aviation Safety Inspector, 4 operations. 5 Q Okay. And have you received any 6 training in becoming an ASI? 7 A Yes. We receive considerable 8 training. 9 Q Just briefly describe that 10 training. 11 A Pardon me? 12 Q I'm sorry. Briefly describe that 13 training. 14 A We have

-- we all are assigned to 15 training at the FAA Academy in Oklahoma City 16 for approximately three months. And then 17 during our first three years, we are given 1B on-the-job training in all the tasks that we 19 are required to do. 20 Q Okay. Do you have any training on 21 performing surveillance of an air carrier? 22 A Yes. Both at the Academy and also

NEAL A. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com20 1 on-the-job training. 2 Q Okay. And what office are you 3 currently assigned to? 4 A The Denver Flight Standards 5 District Office. 6 Q Okay. And do you undergo any 7 recurrent training? 8 A We do have recurrent training 9 every year that's assigned to us or we request 10 that training usually at the FAA Academy in 11 Oklahoma City. 12 Q Okay. And what are your current 13 duties? 14 A My current duties are I'm a 15 Principal Operations Inspector with oversight 16 over Mountain Aviation and three other 17 carriers. 18 Q Okay. 19 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I would 20 like to offer Inspector Lang as an expert in 21 aviation safety investigations. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Jackson, do

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com21 1 you want to volr dire? 2 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: The witness will 4 be received as an expert ln the area 5 proffered. 6 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 7 Q Okay. Mr. Lang, did you become 8 involved in an investigation into Mountain 9 Aviation concerning a check airman who had not 10 received the required 135339 competency and 11 proficiency check? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q Okay. And how were you involved 14 with that investigation? 15 A During routine surveillance of 16 their training records and of the check airmen 17 records, I discovered that a check airman for 18 Mountain Aviation was had not had his 19 observation by the FAA on a biannual basis. 20 Q Okay. What information did you 21 gather as part of your investigation? 22 A I gathered the records on the

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com22 1 check airman, himself, as far as his last 2 observation by the FAA and then those 3 subsequent checks that he gave after he became 4 uncurrent as a check airman. 5 Q Okay. All right. Inspector, you 6 have what's up there

-- what's labeled up 7 there as a witness copy. Please turn to what 8 is marked as Cl for identification. Do you 9 recognlze this document? 10 A Yes, I do. 11 Q What is it? 12 A It's an FAA Form 8410-3 Airman 13 Competency and Proficiency Check Form for an 14 alrman named David G. Moss. It's given 15 it's a check that's given by Mr. Rodney N. 16 Getty. And he has signed the form. 17 Q Okay. And what's the date of the 18 check? 19 A The date of the check is 13th of 20 August 2008. 21 Q Okay. Now please look at the 22 bottom of the page under FAA inspector's

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com23 1 signature. Whose signature lS that? 2 A That would be Inspector Al 3 Hankins' signature. 4 Q Okay. And what is the

-- what is 5 the relevance of that signature? 6 A That would have been an 7 observation given by Inspector Hankins of 8 Mr. Getty on that date. 9 Q Okay. And what does that satisfy? 10 A That satisfies a requirement 11 in CFR 135339A2. 12 Q Okay. Now, this lS dated 13 August 13, 2008. Did Mr. Getty have to 14 undergo this observation again at some point 15 in the future? 16 A Under that regulation, Mr. Getty 17 should have undergone that observation again 18 no later than 30 September 2010. 19 Q Okay. 20 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 21 what has been marked as C1 for identification 22 be entered into evidence as C1?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com24 1 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: C1 for 3 identification is received into evidence as 4 Complainant 1 S 1. 5 (Complainant 1 s Exhibit No. 1 was 6 received into evidence.) 7 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 8 Q Inspector/ please turn to what 1s 9 marked as C2 for identification? 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so you know/ 11 Mr. Jackson/ when I

-- I 1m marking the pages 12 1 of 2 1 2 of 2 1 and so forth. I put my ID in 13 pencil on the form. And as a double-check/ I 14 line through ID 1 write the date so when it 15 appears on the Internet 1 it 1 s kind of a 16 double-check just to -- for me to make sure. 17 I 1m also doing a spreadsheet that 18 will appear in front of all the exhibits. And 19 you 1 re welcome to inspect any of that at the 20 end of the hearing just to make sure that we 21 get everything correctly put into evidence. 22 MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Your

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com25 1 Honor. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: So Exhibit 1 for 3 identification is received into evidence as 4 Exhibit 1. Go ahead, Counsel. 5 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 6 Q Inspector, do you recognize 7 document C2? 8 A Yes, I do. It's again an FAA Form 9 8410-3 Airman Competencyand ProficiencyCheck 10 for John A. Kuzneski as the airman. And it 11 was given by Rodney N. Getty. And it is so 12 signed by Rodney Getty. 13 Q What is the date that these checks 14 were given? 15 A It is 16 December 2010. 16 Q And what checks were given? 17 A 135293 A check, 293 B check, a 18 line check, 135299, and an IFR proficiency 19 check, 135297, and the use of an autopilot 20 Q Okay. 21 A -- check. 22 Q And just to be clear, who was NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com26 1 giving who the check? 2 A Mr. Getty was giving Mr. Kuzneski 3 the check. 4 Q Okay. And Mr. Kuzneski is who? 5 A He would be the airman who was 6 receiving this check. 7 Q Okay. What is the relevance of 8 this document? 9 A This document shows that the check 10 was given after the time that Mr. Getty should 11 have receivedhis observationby the FAAunder 12 135339A2. 13 Q Okay. 14 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 15 that what has been marked as C2 for 16 identificationbe enteredinto evidence as C2? 17 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 2 19 for identification is**rece~ved** into evidence 20 as Complainant's 2. 21 (Complainant's Exhibit No. 2 was 22 received into evidence.)

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1 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 2 Q Inspector, please turn to what is 3 marked as C3 for identification. Do you 4 recognlze this document? 5 A It is agaln another FAA Form 6 8410-3 Airman Competencyand ProficiencyCheck 7 given to Airman Stephanie A. Wells by 8 Rodney N. Getty and is so signed by Rodney N. 9 Getty. 10 Q What is the date of this check? 11 A 21 December 2010. 12 Q Okay. And what checks did 13 Mr. Getty give on Ms. Wells? 14 A He gave Ms. Wells a 135299 line 15 check. 16 Q Okay. What is the relevance of 17 this document? 18 A Once agaln, this date is after the 19 date that Mr. Getty was no longer a valid 20 check alrman because he had not had an 21 observation by the FAA under 135339A2. 22 Q Okay.

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1 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 2 that what's been marked as C3 be entered into 3 evidence as C3? 4 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 3 6 for identification is received into evidence 7 as Complainant's 3. 8 (Complainant's Exhibit No. 3 was 9 received into evidence.) 10 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 11 Q Inspector, please turn to what is 12 marked as C4 for identification. Do you 13 recognize this document? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What is it? 16 A It's an FAA Form 8410-3 Airman 17 Competencyand ProficiencyCheck for Jeremy L. 18 Sumpter as the airman given by Rodney N. Getty 19 and so signed by Rodney N. Getty. 20 Q What was the date of this check? 21 A This check is given on the 26th of 22 December 2010.

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1 Q And what checks were given on this 2 date? 3 A 13529 3 A, 13529 3 B , 13529 9 , and 4 135 excuse me -- use of an autopilot check 5 also. 6 Q And what is the relevance of this 7 document? 8 A This check was given on the 26th 9 of December, some days after Mr. Getty was 10 once again an invalid check airman. 11 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 12 what has been marked as C4 be entered into 13 evidence as C4. 14 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 4 16 for identification is received into evidence 17 as Complainant's 4. 18 (Complainant's Exhibit No. 4 was 19 received into evidence.) 20 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 21 Q Inspector, please turn to what is 22 marked as C5 for identification. Do you

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com30 1 recognlze this document? 2 A This would be a 135 trip by 3 Mountain Aviation. 4 Q Okay. What

-- do you know what 5 dates this trip was accomplished? 6 A Let's see. I have January 12, 7 2011 on the top of the form. 8 Q Okay. 9 A And then then there is a 10 January 18, 2011 on the top of the form also. 11 Q Okay. What is the relevance of 12 this document{ 13 A Mr. Sumpter served as the. SIC on 14 this particular flight. 15 Q Is that Jeremy Sumpter? 16 A That's Jeremy Sumpter. 17 Q Okay. And why is that significant 18 to your investigation? 19 A Mr. Sumpter was not qualified 20 under 135 due to the fact that he had been 21 given a check by·Mr. Getty. And Mr. Getty was 22 an invalid check airman at that time.

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1 Q Okay. 2 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 3 that what has been marked as C5 for 4 identification be entered in as C5 as 5 evidence. 6 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 5 8 for identification is received into evidence 9 as Complainant's 5. 10 (Complainant's Exhibit No. 5 was 11 received into evidence.) 12 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 13 Q Inspector, please turn to what is 14 marked as C6 for identification. Do you 15 recognize this document? 16 A Yes, I do. 17 Q And what is this document? 18 A This is a letter of investigation 19 that I wrote to Mountain Aviation and 20 Mr. Bjelkevig. 21 Q Okay. Did you receive a response 22 to this letter of investigation?

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1 A Yes, we did. 2 Q Okay. 3 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 4 that what has been marked as C6 for 5 identificationbe enteredinto evidence as C6. 6 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 6 8 for identification is received into evidence 9 as Complainant's 6. 10 (Complainant's Exhibit No. 6 was 11 received into evidence.) 12 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 13 Q Inspector, please turn to what is 14 marked as C7 for identification. Do you 15 recognize this document? 16 A This is a response document to the 17 letter of investigation from Mr. Emmerson, I 18 believe, of Mountain Aviation. 19 Q Okay. Now, without having you 20 assessitate (phonetic) the whole thing, did 21 they indicate whether they took any remedial 22 measures in this letter of investigation?

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1 A Yes, they did. 2 Q Okay. Did you take those measures 3 into account when you were writing up the 4 case? 5 A Yes, I did. 6 Q Okay. Inspector, you'll see at 7 the bottom of the page 1, 2, and 3. Can you 8 read No. 1? 9 A No. 1, the check airman that is in 10 question was immediately suspended from any 11 and all checking activityuntil a status could 12 be ascertained. Mountain Aviation again 13 requests a 24-month observation from the FAA 14 for this check airman as soon as possible. 15 Q Okay. 16 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 17 that what has been marked as C7 for 18 identificationbe enteredinto evidence as C7? 19 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 7 21 for identification is received into evidence 22 as Complainant's 7.

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### (Complainant's Exhibit No. 7 was 2 received into evidence.) 3 

### BY MR. LOMAZOW: 4 Q 

### Inspector, did there come a time 5 

### after receipt of this letter of investigation 6 

### that you met with any individuals from 7 

### Mountain Aviation? 8 A 

### Yes, we did. 9 Q 

### Okay. Who did you meet with? 10 A I 

### met with Mr. Bjelkevig, 11 

### Mr. Emmerson, and Mr. Taft, who was the 12 

### recordkeeper. At that time Mr. Emmerson was 13 

### the chief pilot. 14 Q 

### Okay. Where did that meeting take 15 

### place? 16 A 

### This .meeting took place at 17 Mountain Aviation in Broomfield, Colorado. 18 Q 

### Okay. Can you briefly describe 19 that meeting? 20 A 

### Basically, we told them what we 21 

### found and the reason that we were having the 22 meeting and that we found a possible violation

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com35 1 of FAR 135339A2. 2 Q Okay. 3 A And they expressed some confusion 4 about that which 1s described in 135339A2. 5 Q Okay. At that meeting did they 6 indicate to you that they had a -- what's 7 called an Aircrew Designated Examiner? 8 A No, they did not. 9 Q Okay. Did they indicate at that 10 meeting that anyone from the FAA told them 11 that they had an Aircrew Designated Examiner? 12 A No. 13 Q Okay. Inspector, please turn to 14 what is marked as C8 for identification. 15 MR. LOMAZOW: And, Your Honor, 16 before I go on with this

-- this 1s our 17 Sanction Guidance. I'm just going to ask a 18 few brief questions about it. Would you like 19 me to admit it into evidence? Or should we 20 just take judicial notice of it? 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Jackson, my -- 22 the Court's position is, with respect to the

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1 Sanction Guidance, rather than fill up my 2 drawers in my office with copies of this, I 3 take judicial notice, unless there's an 4 objection. I generally mark it for 5 identification and don't receive it as 6 evidence. 7 In addition, when we're

-- when I 8 write the decision, we always consult the copy 9 of the Sanction Guidance in force at the time 10 of the violation, assumlng that there's a 11 violation found. 12 So that ensures that, A) we're 13 looking at the right copy and, B) I don't have 14 cabinets full of multiple copies of the 15 Sanction Guidance

.. So the Court will take 16 judicial notice of the Sanction Guidance. 17 Go ahead. 18 MR. LOMAZOW: Go ahead? 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. 20 MR. LOMAZOW: Oh. Okay. I'm 21 sorry. 22 BY MR. LOMAZOW:

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com37 1 Q Inspector, as part of your duties, 2 are you required to be generally familiar 3 with FAA Order 2153B? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. Turning to 2153B, please 6 turn to the page marked B3 at the bottom of 7 the page. What does this page show? 8 A It shows different groups of air 9 carriers and if they're a large or small 10 business. 11 Q Okay. During your investigation, 12 did you conclude whether Mountain is a small 13 or large business concern? 14 A Mountain Aviation would be a small 15 business group 3. 16 Q Okay. Please turn to what is 17 marked as B4 at the bottom of the page, which 18 is the next page. What does this page show? 19 A It shows the sanctions that would 20 be covered for group 3 for violations under 21 49 U.S.C. Section 46301A5 and A. 22 Q Okay. Now, what is the sanction

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com38 1 range for a small business concern? 2 A This sanction range goes from 3 $3,300 to a maximum of $42,900. 4 Q Okay. So you got to start with 5 the moderate and go to the maximum? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay. And what

-- I'm sorry, 8 Inspector. Is that

-- the maximum, would that 9 be 11,000 here? 10 A I think the maximum shows 11,000 11 on this particular page. 12 Q Okay. So what would the median of 13 3,300 and 11,000 be? 14 A Oh. Roughly $6,000. 15 Q Okay. If my math is correct, off 16 the top of my head, I think that's 7,150. 17 A Okay. 18 Q Now, 1s that per violation? 19 A That would be per violation, yes. 20 Q Okay. How many checks did Rodney 21 Getty administer on behalf of Mountain when he 22 was not qualified to do so?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com39 1 A The evidence that we have gone 2 over shows three checks. 3 Q Okay. How many checks all 4 together? 5 A We have 3 airmen checked, and then 6 on the order of 12 total checks

-- 7 Q Okay. 8 A -- if you go by regulation. 9 Q Okay. So if we take the moderate 10 range, 7,150, times 12, at the very least 11 that's go1ng to be a larger sanction than 12 21,450? 13 A Yes, it is. 14 Q Okay. Now, in Mountain's response 15 to the LOI, they indicated they took certain 16 steps, certain remedial steps. Did you 17 consider that to be above and beyond what you 18 would expect from an air carrier? 19 A I would expect that of any air 20 carrier. 21 Q Okay. In your opinion, is there a 22 safety concern for an air carrier using an NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com40
1 

### unqualified check airman for flight checks? 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### Okay. 4 

### MR. LOMAZOW: No further questions 5 for this witness, Your Honor. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 7 

### CROSS-EXAMINATION 8 

### BY MR. JACKSON: 9 Q 

### Good morning, Inspector Lang. My 10 

### name 1s Kent Jackson. I'm representing 11 

### Mountain Aviation. 12 A 

### Good morning. 13 Q 

### The phrase Aircrew Designated 14 

### Examiner, are you familiar with it? 15 

### A Yes. 16 Q 

### Where is it defined? 17 A 

### It's defined in 135339. 

### And I 18 

### believe it's defined 1n the 121, 

### as far as 19 

### it's in those regs. The definition, I don't 20 think you're going to find it in part 1 

### of 21 

### definitions. 22 Q 

### AircrewDesignated Examiner is not

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com41 1 mentioned anywhere in,part 183, is it? 2 A Not that I know of. 3 Q It's not mentioned anywhere in 4 part 60, is it? 5 A Not that I know of. 6 Q Does part 135.337 define what a 7 check airman is? 8 A I believe it does. 9 Q And

-- 10 A I don't have the reg in front of 11 me. But I believe it does. 12 Q Would you like to have the 13 regulation in front of you? 14 A Pardon me? 15 Q I can hand you the regulation if 16 you'd

-- 17 A I'd love to have the regulations. 18 Q This is marked for identification. 19 There you go. 20 MR. JACKSON: Kyle, I'm not going 21 to offer this. But I'm just going to mark

-- 22 MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. That's fine.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com42 1 MR. JACKSON: it for 2 identification. If he'd rather have his own, 3 that's fine too. May I approach the witness? 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Thank you. 5 BY MR. JACKSON: 6 Q I hand you what's been marked for 7 identification which is Respondent's Exhibit 8 No. 7. If you would, Inspector, please take 9 a moment and review that. Does that appear to 10 be Federal Aviation Regulation 135.337? 11 A Okay. 12 Q In A1 does it define what a check 13 airman aircraft is? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What lS it? 16 A A1 says, A check airman aircraft 17 is a person who's qualified to conduct flight 18 checks in an aircraft 1n a flight simulator or 19 in a flight training device for a particular 20 type of aircraft. 21 Q You testified about check airmen 22 for Mountain Aviation named Mr. Getty and

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com43 1 Mr. Taft; lS that correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Were they check airmen in 4 aircraft? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Were they check airmen ln 7 simulators? 8 A I believe he was if his 9 designation as a check airman said all checks. 10 Q You might go ahead and take a 11 moment and review Complainant's Exhibit C9, 12 just to make sure you're comfortable with that 13 item. Have you had the opportunity to review 14 Exhibit C9? 15 A Yes. 16 Q So are you certain that Mr. Getty 17 and Mr. Taft by these letters were authorized 18 as check airmen in simulators? 19 A It gives two aircraft. And then 20 it says, Check pilot all checks. 21 Q Okay. So are·you certain whether 22 they were simulator check airmen?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com44 1 A It doesn't mention simulator. But 2 it says, Check pilot all checks. 3 Q All right. FAR Section 135337 and 4 135339 and I can refresh your recollection 5 on 339, if you'd like. Would it assist you to 6 review a copy of 339, as well? 7 A Yeah. Sure. I'd love to have a 8 copy of 339. 9 MR. JACKSON: May I approach? 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, thank you. 11 BY MR. JACKSON: 12 Q Inspector, have you had the 13 opportunity to review'the two regulations? 14 A Yes. 15 Q These two regulations together 16 state the specific knowledge and skill 17 requirements to serve as a check airman; isn't 18 that true? 19 A Correct. 20 Q Is there anything missing from 21 that list? Any requirements you would require 22 of a check airman that aren't included there?

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1 A I'm sorry. I didn't understand 2 your question. And can you speak up just a 3 little, please? 4 Q I do apologize. Is this better? 5 A Okay. That's better. 6 Q All right. Federal Aviation 7 Regulations 135.337 and 339 contain the 8 requirements for an individual to be 9 designated as a check airman; is that correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Is there anything missing from 12 those requirements? 13 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I'm 14 going to object to that question. It's vague 15 as to what is missing. Are we talking 16 grammar? Or are we talking requirements? 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 18 Overruled. You can answer, if you understand 19 the question. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't think 21 there's anything missing from what I can read 22 on 339A2. Okay? It says the person has to go NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com46 1 through initial transition check a1rman 2 training and pr1or to checking has to conduct 3 a proficiency or competency check under the 4 observation of an FAA inspector. And then it 5 goes on to say, Or an Aircrew Designated 6 Examiner employed by the operator. 7 

### BY MR. JACKSON: 8 Q What additional requirements do 9 those regulations state to be designated as an 10 Aircrew Designated Examiner employed by the 11 company? 12 A They don't state, as far as I 13 know. 14 Q Check airmen are not required 15 under FAR part 135, are they? 16 A They are not required. They are 17 usually requested by the air carrier. 18 Q So it would be an incorrect 19 statement to say that check airmen are 20 required under part 135? 21 A They're required to perform 22 certain things according to the CFR.

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1 Q And if the +Federal Aviation 2 Inspectors not going to perform those duties, 3 correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q Check airmen are not involved in 6 issuing airmen certificates or ratings, are 7 they? 8 A No, they are not. 9 Q Part 135 check airmen only conduct 10 checks required under part 135; isn't that 11 correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q An Aircrew Designated Examiner, as 14 referenced in FAR 135.339A2, only conducts 15 checks required under part 135; isn't that 16 correct? 17 A If he is so designated under that 18 part, yes. 19 Q In the course of your 20 investigation, did you compile an enforcement 21 investigative report? 22 A Yes.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT**R~PORTERS** AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com48 1 Q Is it customary 1n compiling an 2 enforcement investigative report to make a 3 record of phone conferences? 4 A It would be, yes. 5 Q Is it customary in compiling an 6 enforcement investigative report to make a 7 record of meetings? 8 A Yes. 9 Q You didn't make any record of a 10 teleconference phone call meeting in the 11 enforcement investigative report on this 12 matter, did you? 13 A No, I did not. 14 Q You didn't include in your 15 enforcement investigative report any guidance 16 from the flight standards information manual 17 service FAA or 8900.10, did you? 18 A No. 19 Q You referred to a letter that you 20 received from MountainAviation. I believe it 21 was signed by Gary Emmerson on behalf of Rich 22 Bjelkevig

-- I apologize.

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1 MR. BJELKEVIG: Very good. It's a 2 good solid Norwegian name. 3 BY MR. JACKSON: 4 Q And I believe it's already been 5 admitted as Complainant's Exhibit No. 7. And 6 let me know if you've had an opportunity to 7 return to that. 8 A Okay. 9 Q In the letter Mr. Emmerson stated 10 that, On January 19th the FAA was at our 11 office to review the documents we had on file 12 regarding this case. 13 Is that the meeting you referred 14 to on your direct examination? 15 A Yes. 16 Q But you have no record of that 17 meeting 1n your enforcement investigative 18 report, other than this letter; 1s that 19 correct? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q Did you have any phone calls with 22 anyone from Mountain Aviation between January

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com50 1 19th and the issuance of the letter of 2 investigation that's already been admitted as 3 Complainant's Exhibit 6 which was dated 4 January 31st? 5 A I don't recall that. 6 Q Do you recall telling anyone from 7 Mountain Aviation before between the 8 meeting on January 19th and before the 9 issuance of the letter of investigation that 10 they were right? 11 A That they were right? 12 Q Yes. 13 A That Mountain Aviation was 14 correct? 15 Q Yes. 16 A No, I do not. 17 Q You don't recall? Or you never 18 have? 19 A I don't recall. 20 Q Okay. And how many Aircrew 21 Designated Examiners under 135.339A2 have you 22 designated?

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1 A I've not designated any. 2 Q Do you know of any -- 3 A No. I 4 Q -- under part 135? 5 A I do not know of any. 6 MR. JACKSON: No further 7 questions. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 9 MR. LOMAZOW: Nothing further, 10 Your Honor. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you finished 12 with this witness

-- 13 MR. LOMAZOW: I 14 JUDGE GOODWIN:

-- at this time? 15 MR. LOMAZOW: I am finished with 16 this witness. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to 18 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 19 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 20 hearing. You're free to step down. You're 21 excused. 22 Counsel, I've got what appear to

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com52 1 be exhibits tucked in the pocket of the front. 2 MR. LOMAZOW: Oh. Okay. You can 3 probably toss those. Or you can hand them to 4 me, if you would like. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, are 6 they (indiscernible) and competency 7 proficiency checks for Airmen Wells, Jones

-- 8 MR. LOMAZOW: Those are just 9 copies, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN:

-- Rex 11 MR. LOMAZOW: Yeah. Those are 12 just extra copies. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So as not 14 to confuse, I'm going to 15 MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. So you 17 only have 10

-- 11 exhibits; is that correct? 18 MR. LOMAZOW: All together I 19 only

-- 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: At this time? 21 MR. LOMAZOW: Exactly. Yes. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Call

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com53 1 your next witness. 2 MR. LOMAZOW: The People call 3 or -- old habits. The Complainant calls Al 4 Hankins. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise 6 your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the 7 testimony you give will be the truth, the 8 whole truth, and nothing but the truth under 9 penalty of perjury? 10 THE WITNESS: I do. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 12 State your full name for the record and spell 13 your first and last name. 14 THE WITNESS: My name is Alvin 15 H a y e s H a n k i n s 16 That's A-1-v-i-n, H-a-n-k-i-n-s. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, I'm 18 looking at the airmen competency 19 (indiscernible) checks. And 1n the third 20 blank down on the right-hand side they appear 21 to have birth dates. So what I'm going to ask 22 you to do when we take our first break is to

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com54 1 review all these documents to make sure we -- 2 that we've redacted that information. 3 I've got a black magic marker. 4 Also double-check on some of these letters to 5 make sure that the letter is going to the 6 business address, not a home address. That 7 happens. So, you know, that's one of the 8 reasons I double-check it myself. 9 MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 11 ALVIN HAYES HANKINS 12 called as a witness on behalf of 13 the Complainant herein, having been first duly 14 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 17 Q Mr. Hankins, where briefly 18 describe your aviation background. 19 A Yes. I'm an Aviation Safety 20 Inspector at the Rocky Mountain CMO. And I've 21 been there since 1989. Prior to that in the 22 Colorado area I've owned aviation businesses

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com55 1 and operated and been chief pilot, chief 2 flight instructor, and so forth for many 3 aviation enterprises. 4 Q Okay. Do you hold any airmen 5 certificate ratings? 6 A I do. I hold an air transport 7 certificate. 8 Q Okay. How long have you been 9 employed by the FAA? 10 A Since '89. 11 Q Okay. Now, are you familiar with 12 an investigation concerning MountainAviation 13 and their use of a check airman who the FAA lS 14 alleging was not qualified to g1ve flight 15 six flight checks between December 16, 2010 16 and December 26, 2010? 17 A I am aware of it. 18 Q Okay. Inspector, please turn to 19 what is marked as C9 for identification. And 20 these are two documents, one dated 21 September 5, 2006, the other datedJanuary 18, 22 2008.

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1 A I'm there. 2 Q Okay. Do you recognize the first 3 document? 4 A Yes, I do. 5 Q Okay. What 1s this document? 6 A That's a designation of check 7 airman letter issued to Mountain Aviation for 8 Rodney Getty. 9 Q Okay. And who issued this 10 designation of check airman? 11 A I did. 12 Q Okay. And what 1s the

-- what 13 does this letter do? 14 A This letter allows Rodney Getty to 15 provide flight checks for currency to the 16 pilots of Mountain Aviation. 17 Q Okay. The language check pilot 18 all checks, what does that

-- what does that 19 mean? 20 A That means that he's allowed to 21 give both the 299 checks, which are line 22 checks, 297 checks, which is the instrument

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com57 1 check, 293A and B, which are the aircraft 2 knowledge tests, to airmen for the company. 3 Q Okay. Now, when it says he 1s 4 approved as a check pilot all checks, does 5 that mean that Rodney Getty was approved as 6 a -- an Aircrew Designated Examiner? 7 A No. 8 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 9 that what has been marked

-- actually, no. I 10 withdraw that. 11 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 12 Q Please turn to the second page. 13 And what

-- do you recognize this document? 14 A Yes, I do. 15 Q And what is this? 16 A This is a letter for Oren Cargill 17 Taft, or Chip Taft as I remember, as a check 18 airman also for the Beech 90 and the Beech 200 19 aircraft and

-- for Mountain Aviation. 20 Q Okay. And again, the

-- when it 21 says he's approved for check pilot all checks, 2 2 does that mean he's approved for the same NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com58
1 

### checks? 2 A 

### The same checks that Rodney was, 3 yes. 4 Q 

### Okay. Did you confer Aircrew 5 Designated Examiner status on Mr. Taft with 6 this letter? 7 A No. 

### I did not. 8 Q 

### And why not? 9 A**Mr~** 

### Taft, in order-- he's not a 10 

### pilot examiner. In order

-- in order to -- 11 

### first of all, we don't have Aircrew Designated 12 

### Examiners 1n this operation. 13 Q 

### Okay. 14 A 

### In order to have an Aircrew 15 

### Designated Examiner, which

-- which there is 16 

### not one, the person would have to be a 17 

### designated pilot examiner, which he is not. 18 Q 

### Okay. So would the all check

-- 19 

### when it says here, Check pilot all checks, 20 would that language authorize Oren Taft to 21 

### observe Rodney Getty perform a proficiency or 22 competency check in order for Mr. Getty to

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com59 1 satisfy 135339A2? 2 A No. 3 Q Okay. 4 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor/ I ask 5 that what has been marked as C9 for 6 identificationbe enteredinto evidence as C9. 7 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: C9 for 9 identification is received into evidence as 10 Complainant 1 S 9. 11 (Complainant 1 S Exhibit No. 9 was 12 received into evidence.) 13 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 14 Q Inspector/ what --I don 1 t know if 15 you recall exactly off the top of your head/ 16 but what dates were you the POI for Mountain? 17 A 18 Q Approximately. 19 A I 1m guessing 1 05

-- maybe 1 04 20 through 1 08. 21 Q Okay. And in the time that you 22 were their POI/ did they have an ADE program?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com60 1 A No. 2 Q Okay. Were any of their check 3 airmen ADEs? 4 A No. 5 Q Okay. Now

-- but when you were 6 Mountain's POI, did you ever tell them that 7 they either had an ADE program or an Aircrew 8 Designated Examiner? 9 A No. 10 Q Okay. Now, did anyone from 11 Mountain ever call you to ask if they actually 12 had an ADE program? 13 A No. 14 Q Okay. If Mountain had called you 15 to ask that, what would you have told them? 16 A They weren't qualified to be

-- 17 they weren't even a pilot examiner. 18 Q Okay. Now, in your time as the

-- 19 well, POI I that's short for Principal 20 Operations Inspector for Mountain, did you 21 ever observe any of their check airmen 22 conducting a competency or proficiency check

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com61 1 of another pilot in order to satisfy the 2 requirement of 135339A2? 3 A Negative. No. 4 Q Okay. I'm sorry. Did you ever, 5 personally yourself, observe one of their 6 pilots conduct the proficiency or competency 7 check in order to satisfy i35339A2? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay. Do you know how long 10 Mountain has been operating as an air carrier 11 for? 12 A Oh. I'm guessing long before I 13 became their POI. I'm not positive. 14 Q Okay. And in the past, based on 15 your knowledge, have FAA inspectors

-- under 16 135339A2 it says the observation can be 17 conducted by an FAA inspector or an Aircrew 18 Designated Examiner, correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Who ln the past did these 21 observations for Mountain Aviation? 22 A Always an FAA inspector.

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1 Q Okay. Did you ever do the 2 A Yes, I have. But not for 339A. 3 This is for 299 and 297 and 293 checks. 4 Q Okay. In your time as POI for 5 Mountain, did they ever express confusion, 6 whether verbally or in writing, as to the 7 requirements of 135339A2? 8 A This the first I've heard of 9 the 339A2 is in this situation right here. 10 Q Okay. 11 MR. LOMAZOW: No further 12 questions, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. JACKSON: 16 Q Good morning, Inspector. 17 A Yes, sir. Good morning. 18 Q My name is Kent Jackson. I 19 represent Mountain Aviation. At any time 20 prior to today, have you reviewed an affidavit 21 of Gary Emmerson in support of Respondent's 22 answer to Complainant's motion for summary NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com63

1 judgment? 2 A Say that again? 3 Q Prior to today, were you given to 4 review an affidavit of Gary Emmerson 1n 5 support of Respondent's answer to 6 Complainant's motion for summary judgment? 7 A I believe I've seen it. 8 Q Okay. 9 MR. JACKSON: May I approach? 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 11 MR. JACKSON: (Indiscernible.) 12 BY MR. JACKSON: 13 Q Sir, I hand you what's been marked 14 for identification purposes as Respondent's 15 Exhibit No. 6. Please take a moment and 16 review it and refresh your recollection. 17 A Okay. 18 Q Okay. Direct your attention to 19 paragraph 2. It states, During his services 20 our POI on multiple occasions, I contacted 21 Inspector Al Hankins by phone attempting to 22 schedule**th~** 14 CFR Section 135.339A2

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com64 1 observation checks. 2 Is that true? 3 A That's incorrect. That 1s not 4 true. 5 Q Why do you say that? 6 A Because 135339 did not apply to 7 Mountain Aviation. 8 Q Let's make sure we are on the same 9 page. 10 A Okay. 11 Q 135339A2 requires a check airman 12 to undergo an observation by either a Federal 13 Aviation Inspector like yourself

-- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- or something called an Aircrew 16 Designated Examiner employed by the company. 17 So in this first sentence when he says, During 18 his services our POI on multiple occasions, I 19 contacted Inspector Al Hankins by phone 20 attempting to schedule the 135339A2 checks

-- 21 if he means for you to come and observe a 22 check airman as required by 135339A2, is it

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com65 1 your testimony that that never occurred? 2 A That never occurred. 3 Q Is it your testimony that Mountain 4 Aviation never had an observation check by you 5 as required by this rule

-- 6 A You're mixing this up. I observed 7 checks for the 299, 297, and 293. In order to 8 be

-- in order to have a 135339 check, the 9 person would need to be a pilot examiner, 10 which they are not. 11 Q Is the copy of 135.339 still up 12 there? 13 A I don't

-- I don't know. 14 Q I direct your attention to what's 15 been marked for identification purposes 16 Respondent's No. 8. Inspector, you've 17 testified that you're familiar with this 18 investigation, correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q The violations alleged by the FAA 21 flow from the FAA's allegation that a 22 particular check airman at Mountain Aviation

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1 had not undergone an observation by an FAA 2 inspector or an Aircrew Designated Examiner 3 employed by the company. Is that correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q That's why we're here? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q So you're say1ng that Mountain 8 Aviation never had an observation check as 9 required by this rule? 10 A That's not what I said. 11 Q Okay. Please clarify. 12 A I said that I have observed 13 Mountain Aviation check airmen. Period. 14 Q Have you observed them for the 15 purpose of compliance with the rule that 16 requires an observation of a check airman? 17 A I have complied with that by 18 giving them a check personally. They don't 19 have an ADE program. 20 Q I'm not asking you -- 21 A Okay. 22 Q -- if they have an ADE program. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com67 1 A Okay. I have observed

-- yes, I 2 have observed them. 3 Q So in the past, prior to 2010, you 4 were their Principal Operations Inspector, 5 correct? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q And you did at some point during 8 that period observe a check alrman from 9 Mountain Aviation do his duty. For example 10 A Now

-- wait. Doing his duty? 11 Q Performing his check airman 12 functions. And you observed that so that they 13 could comply with 135339A2. 14 A No. 15 Q Would you look at Complainant's 16 Exhibit No. 1? 17 A I don't have that here. Is this 18 in this 19 Q It's in the notebook 20 A In the notebook? 21 Q if you will. 22 A Yes.

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1 Q And can you tell us what that 2 exhibit is? 3 A This is a flight check form for 4 Rodney Getty

-- I'm sorry -- for David Moss in 5 which the check was observed

-- let's see 6 here. 7 Q Who was it observed by? 8 A It was observed by me. It was a 9 check airman check ride for Dave Moss. 10 Q All right. Did Mountain Aviation 11 comply with the observation check required by 12 135339A2 in Complainant's Exhibit No. 1? 13 A No. This is for check 135.297 and 14 .299. 15 Q You testified that you're not 16 quite sure of when your service as Principal 17 Operations Inspector for Mountain Aviation 18 ended. Was it 2008 or 2009? 19 A I'm not positive. I think it was 20 2009, I believe it was. 21 Q Okay. And what was your 22 involvement in this investigation?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com69 1 A 

### As a witness only. In this 2 investigation for this case? 3 Q 

### Yes. 4 A 

### Just a witness. 5 Q 

### Okay. Let me refer you aga1n to 6 what's beenmarked as Respondent's Exhibit No. 7 6 and again to paragraph 2, the second 8 sentence where Mr. Emmerson says, During these 9 calls, InspectorAl Hankins sometimes said he 10 

### was unable to schedule an observation of 11 

### checking during the required 24 

### months and 12 

### asked if a check airman had administered a 13 

### check ride to another check airman in the 14 

### proceeding 24 

### months. 15 

### Do you see that sentence? 16 

### A You were on 6 

### you say? 17 Q 

### I'm sorry. Paragraph 2 I 

### second 18 

### sentence. Oh. I'm sorry. Please please 19 

### refer to Respondent's Exhibit No. 6. 

### It's 20 

### what you looked at before. 21 A 

### Okay. 22 Q 

### The affidavit of Gary Emmerson.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com70 1 A Yes. 2 Q All right. Please look at the 3 second sentence in paragraph 2 that 4 says, Duringthese calls, InspectorAl Hankins 5 sometimes said he was unable to schedule an 6 observation of checking during the required 24 7 months and asked if a check airman had 8 administered a check ride to another check 9 airman in the proceeding 24 months. 10 Do you see that sentence? 11 I see that. A 12 Q All right. Is that statement 13 true? 14 A No. 15 Q That statement is not true? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q So you were never contacted by 18 GaryEmmerson to schedule an observation check 19 where you were being requested to observe a 20 check airman conduct a check ride; is that 21 true? 22 A That's

-- repeat that, please?

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1 Q All right. Were you ever 2 contacted by Gary Emmerson to schedule your 3 observation of a check airman conducting a 4 check ride at Mountain Aviation? 5 A I was, yes. 6 Q Okay. But you never said, I can't 7 come, and ask the question in sentence 2, 8 paragraph 2 that I'm talking about? 9 A I have never denied them a check 10 ride. I don't quite understand what you're 11 getting at here. 12 Q Did you ever ask them whether the 13 check airmen had flown with each other? Had 14 checked each other? 15 A No. I never asked them that. 16 Q You never asked them that? 17 A Because it wasn't possible. 18 Q What do you mean it's not 19 possible? 20 A A check airman cannot check 21 another check airman. That check airman has 22 to be observed by an FAA inspector.

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1 Q Is it your testimony that one 2 Mountain Aviation check airman cannot give a 3 135.297 ride to another check airman? 4 A That's not the question. 5 Q All right. Let's make sure we're 6 on 7 A He can do that, yes. 8 Q He can do that? 9 A Yes. A 297 check. 10 Q That's right. All right. So it's 11 your testimony that you never told Mountain 12 Aviation that they could count that as an 13 observation check? 14 A I never told them that, no. 15 Q All right. The end of your 16 service as Principal Operations Inspector for 17 Mountain Aviation 2009? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Was that at the time when you were 20 terminated by the Federal Aviation 21 Administration? 22 A Probably, yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com73 1 Q Okay. You were subsequently 2 rehired? 3 A No. That's not true. 4 Q Did you engage in any legal 5 proceeding to get your job back? 6 MR. LOMAZOW: Objection, Your 7 Honor, relevance. 8 MR. JACKSON: It goes to 9 credibility, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll allow limited 11 inquiry. 12 MR. JACKSON: Okay. 13 BY MR. JACKSON: 14 Q Did you engage in any legal 15 proceeding to get your job at the FAA back? 16 A Yes. 17 Q All right. Have those legal 18 proceedings concluded? 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me ask a 20 preliminaryquestion. Is the legal proceeding 21 in the public record or not? 22 MR. JACKSON: (Indiscernible.)

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Pardon me? 2 MR. JACKSON: I have it from 3 Westlaw, if you'd like to see it. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: So it's in the 5 public record. 6 MR. JACKSON: Yes. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: I just want to 8 make sure I'm not dealing with something 9 that's confidential. 10 MR. JACKSON: I understand. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. You 12 can answer the question. You may want to 13 restate the question. 14 THE WITNESS: Please restate the 15 question? 16 BY MR. JACKSON: 17 Q Certainly. And so that we're all 18 on the same page -- 19 MR. JACKSON: May I approach? 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 21 BY MR. JACKSON: 22 Q I'm handing you what's been marked

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com75 1 for identification purposes Respondent's 2 Exhibit No. 9. Does this appear to be a 3 decision of the Merit Systems ProtectionBoard 4 in the matter of Alvin H. Hankins versus the 5 Department of Transportation dated 6 September 11, 2012? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Are you the Alvin H. Hankins named 9 ln this document? 10 A I am. 11 Q Did this order require the FAA to 12 pay you back pay that you were entitled to? 13 A That's

-- they did. 14 Q And

-- 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. Was 16 the answer yes or no? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 19 BY MR. JACKSON: 20 Q And so the FAA has, in accordance 21 with the order, paid you back pay you were 22 entitled to?

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1 A That's correct. 2 Q When did you finally rece1ve the 3 check? 4 MR. LOMAZOW: Objection, Your 5 Honor. When he received the check? What's 6 the relevance to that to this? 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm not sure that 8 that's relevant. I mean, I'll allow you to 9 argue. But the

-- what's relevant to me 1s 10 the pleadings in the order. 11 MR. JACKSON: I understand. I 12 understand. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: If the matter is 14 under appeal, then that would be something 15 else. 16 BY MR. JACKSON: 17 Q This order does note that you were 18 involuntarily terminated on October 16, 2009i 19 1s that correct? 20 A That's correct. 21 MR. JACKSON: All right. No 22 further questions.

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1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 3 Q Mr. Hankins, when you were 4 terminated from the FAA, did that have 5 anything to do with your position as a POI? 6 A Negative. No. 7 Q Okay. And again, did at any time 8 you ever advise Mountain that they had an 9 Aircrew Designated Examiner? 10 A No. 11 Q Okay. 12 MR. LOMAZOW: No further questions 13 for this witness, Your Honor. However, I ask 14 that he remain on record, as I might call him 15 later as a rebuttal witness. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, he won't 17 stay on the record. I mean, he can I 18 understand what you're saying. Do you have 19 any further questions of this witness at this 20 time? 21 MR. JACKSON: I would like to ask 22 one redirect (sic)

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1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. JACKSON: 3 Q Inspector Hankins, 1n the legal 4 proceedings that led to the order dated 5 September 11, 2012, did the FAA ever accuse 6 you of absenteeism? 7 A Did they ever accuse me? Yes, 8 they did. 9 Q Thank you. 10 MR. LOMAZOW: No further 11 questions, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 13 MR. LOMAZOW: No further 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you are 15 instructed not to discuss your testimony with 16 anybody prior to the conclusion of the 17 hearing. The FAA has indicated that you may 18 be recalled at some subsequent point. So 19 please be sure to follow my admonition and 20 don't discuss your testimony. You can step 21 down. 22 Counsel?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com79 1 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I do 2 have one more witness to call, but considering 3 it's 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: How long do you 5 think that will take? That answers that 6 question. Let's take a break until I've 7 got about 26 minutes after. Let's take a 8 break under 20 minutes till 11:00, at which 9 time we'll go back on the record. We're off 10 the record. 11 (Off the record for about a half 12 hour and then back on the record.) 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're back on the 14 record. Call your next witness. Sorry for 15 the delay. I got tied up in the office. 16 MR. LOMAZOW: The Complainant 17 calls Peter Popp to the stand. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise 19 your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the 20 testimony you give will be the truth, the 21 whole truth, and nothing but the truth under 22 penalty of perjury?

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1 

### THE WITNESS: I do. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 3 State your full name for the record and spell 4 

### your first and last name. 5 

### THE WITNESS: My name is Peter 6 

### Theodore Popp. The first name is P-e-t-e-r. 7 

### And the last name is P-o-p-p. Those are all 8 

### P's like Peter. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 10 

### PETER THEODORE POPP 11 

### called as a witness on behalf of 12 

### the Complainant herein, havingbeen first duly 13 

### sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 14 

### DIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY 

### MR. LOMAZOW: 16 Q 

### Mr. Popp, where are you currently 17 

### employed? 18 A 

### With the FAA 

### at the Rocky 19 Mountain CMO in Denver, Colorado. 20 Q 

### Can you briefly describe your 21 

### aviation background? 22 A 

### I did 15 

### years of flying for the

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1 Military, U.S. Air Force. I went to United 2 Airlines for seven years as a line pilot, 3 check airman, and flight instructor. I also 4 worked for Airbus four years as a check airman 5 and training center evaluator and then on 6 to CAE as a training center evaluator before 7 the FAA. 8 Q 

### Do you hold any airman 9 certificates? 10 A I do. I hold an a1r transport 11 pilot rating. 12 Q Okay. How long have you been 13 employed by the FAA? 14 A Three years. Just coming up on 15 three years. 16 Q Okay. In what capacity are you 17 employed by the FAA? 18 A I'm an Aviation Safety Inspector. 19 Q Okay. What office

-- and 20 you're I'm sorry. You're currentlypart of 21 the Rocky Mountain CMO? 22 A Rocky Mountain Certificate

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### Management Office; that's correct. 2 Q 

### Okay. Now describe your current 3 duties. 4 A 

### Currently I'm assigned to Great 5 Lakes Airlines as the air crewprogrammanager 6 and responsible for training and checking of 7 all air, check airmen, designated examiners, 8 and pilot force. 9 Q 

### Okay. And are you familiar with 10 

### the Aircrew Designated Examiner program? 11 A 

### Yes, I am. 12 Q 

### Okay. 13 

### MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I offer 14 

### Inspector Popp as an expert in aviation safety 15 

### investigations and the Aircrew Designated 16 

### Examiner program. 17 

### MR. JACKSON: May I ask one vo1r 18 

### dire? 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 20 

### VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION 21 

### BY MR. JACKSON: 22 Q 

### Inspector, have you ever NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com83 1 designated an Aircrew Designated Examiner in 2 part 13513 as that term is used in 3 135.339A2? 4 A It's not specified under there. 5 But I have designated six Aircrew Designated 6 Examiners on part 121. The regulation that 7 covers that is identical to the 135 8 regulation. And the 8900 spells that all out 9 that the requirements are the same for both 10 programs. 11 Q So you've never done any 135? 12 A No, I have not. 13 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 14 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, again I 15 offer him as an expert? 16 MR. JACKSON: No objection. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: The witness is 18 accepted as an expert. 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) 20 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 21 Q Mr. Popp, what is an Aircrew 22 Designated Examiner program?

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1 A Aircrew designator Designat.ed 2 Examiner program lS a thing that

-- or a 3 program that's created between the FAA and an 4 alr carrier or an operator to be able to 5 create check alrmen that have special 6 authority in order to give certificates to 7 other pilots under the employment of that 8 ope:r:ator. 9 Q Okay. Is there any guidance out 10 there as to how an air carrier can acquire 11 an ADE program? 12 A Yes. The inspector's handbook, 13 the 8900.1 spells**~ut** how you would go about 14 doing such a thing. 15 Q Please turn to what is marked in 16 the book in front of you as C11. Do you 17 recognize this document? 18 A I do. 19 Q What is this document? 20 A This is a section of the 21 inspector's handbook 8900.1 on the Aircrew 22 Designated Examiner program. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com85
1 Q Is this a publicly-available 2 document? 3 A Yes, it is. I believe it's 4 available on the Internet. 5 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, I ask 6 that judicial notice be taken of C11? 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection, 8 Mr. Jackson? 9 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, is this 10 being offered as current the relevant time? 11 Or are we looking at what's on the Internet 12 today? 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court's 14 concern lS whatever documents were in force 15 and applicable at the time of the incident. 16 So the incident was I don't have it quite 17 in front of me. But it would have to weigh to 18 the dates. 19 And if the Court takes judicial 20 notice, as I've indicated earlier, we always 21 check to make sure that we have before us at 22 the time we write the decision a copy of the

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com86 1 regulation that it is currently happening at 2 the time of the incidents. 3 MR. JACKSON: And this is not 4 being offered as a regulation, is it? 5 MR. LOMAZOW: It is not, no. 6 MR. JACKSON: Okay. 7 MR. LOMAZOW: Simply as 8 background. 9 MR. JACKSON: Okay. I have no 10 objection if this is asserted to be relevant 11 at the time, which from our position was 12 March 26, 2010. 13 MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. It will be 15 received and appropriate weight will be given 16 based on the objection. Counsel? 17 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 18 Q Inspector, what are the 19 requirements --and you don't have to go into 20 every single one -- but briefly summarize. 21 What are the requirements for an air carrier 22 such as Mountain to acquire an Aircrew

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com87 1 Designated Examiner program? 2 A It's a process that usually the 3 air carrierwould approach the FAA. Sometimes 4 it's the other way around. But it's usually 5 based on need. If the FAA is unable to 6 provide sufficient inspectors to provide 7 checking functions and to provide the rating 8 functions for the pilots at the carrier or 9 there's some distance issue or simulator 10 issue, time issue, they would come to the FAA 11 and say, We'd like to set this up. 12 The FAA would have to base it on 13 need. Is that truly the case that we don't 14 have enough inspectors to cover the need? If 15 that's the case, then we'll sit down with the 16 air carrier, and we'll write what's called a 17 Memorandum of Understanding where we will put 18 down the requirements for both sides as far as 19 what's required of the FAA inspector as 20 somebody that's going to be designated to run 21 the program. 22 As an Air Program Manager, that's

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com88 1 what I was selected to do. I needed to go 2 through the qualification program for one of 3 the air carriers or as one of the air 4 carrier's pilots in command. So I went 5 through their entire trainJ..ng program. I also 6 went through their entire check alrman 7 training program. 8 We would then select

-- or they 9 would put candidates forward to be those air 10 crew program designees. That's the title we 11 give to the actual check airmen that are 12 authorized to do this as air program designee. 13 And we would train them. It was my 14 responsibility to train them, observe them 15 doing their job as check airmen, giving check 16 rides, they observe me giving check rides. 17 I do ground safety training with 18 them and ground instruction on FAA 19 requirements to be able to do those functions. 20 It gets coordinated through our office and 21 then all the way up to the regional offices, 22 the FAA, to get approval for the program. So

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com89 1 it takes some time to do that. 2 Q Okay. So this lS something you 3 cannot do like in a day? 4 A No. This would probably take at 5 least, you know, six months to two years 6 depending on how diligent the operator wanted 7 to be with it and how the FAA handled it. 8 Q Inspector, please turn to what lS 9 marked as C9 in the witness book, and tell me 10 when you're there? 11 A Yeah. I'm there. 12 Q Okay. Let's go to the letter 13 dated January 18, 2008, which is the second 14 page. 15 A Okay. 16 Q The language check pilot

-- where 17 it says in the middle of the page, This 18 approval lS applicable for the following check 19 functions: Check pilot all checks. 20 A Uh-huh. 21 Q Does that language, ln your 22 opinion, confer ADE status on the check airman

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com90 1 here in question? 2 A No. It does not. 3 Q Why not? 4 A It's spelled out pretty clearly in 5 the 8900 that that designation allows you to 6 do proficiency checking 1n the simulator, 7 proficiency checking in an aircraft, or line 8 checks in an aircraft. 9 Q Okay. The POI here 1s Al Hankins, 10 correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Would he have the power to bypass 13 the procedures you just talked about and 14 confer ADE status on a check airman? 15 A No, absolutely not. 16 Q Okay. Please turn to what 1s 17 marked as C1 in the book. 18 A Okay. 19 Q Now, at the bottom of the page you 20 see InspectorAl Hankins' signature, correct? 21 A Correct. 22 Q What does that signature mean to

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com91 1 you? 2 A That means that Inspector Hankins 3 was on the aircraft during this proficiency 4 check, and he signed off the check airman's 5 performance as satisfactory. 6 Q Okay. And what does that approve 7 Ronald Getty for? 8 A That would approve the check 9 airman to continue to conduct checking 10 functions, proficiency checking functions of 11 company pilots. 12 Q Okay. And what CFR does that 13 satisfy? 14 A That would satisfy an observation 15 under 135339. 16 Q Okay. Now, you heard Inspector Al 17 Hankins testify that it does not. Do you 18 disagree with that opinion? 19 A Partially. What I think Inspector 20 Hankins was -- might have been confused by is 21 the requirement of 339 says an FAA inspector 22 or an Aircrew Designated Examiner. I don't

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1 think that creates a designated examiner out 2 of, you know, Airman Getty. But Inspector 3 Hankins lS an FAA inspector, so he's 4 authorized to conduct that observation. So I 5 believe he might have been confused on that 6 point. 7 Q What language does all checks 8 what does an all checks designation confer on 9 that check airman? 10 A All checks designation allows a 11 check airman to do proficiency checking in a 12 simulator, proficiency checking in an 13 aircraft, and a line checking in an aircraft. 14 Q Okay. So under any circumstances, 15 is it possible to for a check airman to be 16 conferred as an -- or to be approved, I should 17 say, as an ADE without having undergone the 18 process that you described at the beginning of 19 your testimony? 20 A No, not at all. 21 MR. LOMAZOW: No further questions 22 for this witness.

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. JACKSON: 4 Q Good morning, Inspector Popp. 5 A Good morning. 6 Q You probably know my name. My 7 name is Kent Jackson, and I'm representing 8 Mountain Aviation. 9 A Thank you. 10 Q The phrase Aircrew Designated 11 Examiner is not defined 1n the FARs, is it? 12 A No, it's not. 13 Q Okay. The phrase air crew 14 designated let me back up. Are you 15 familiar with part 183? 16 A Yes, I am. 17 Q Very good. What does part 183 18 cover? 19 A Designated examiners checking 20 functions like the certifications. 21 Q Can I ask you for a moment on 22 Exhibit C11 --Complainant's Exhibit 11, which

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-- I believe we referred to it as the 2 3 A The one we discussed earlier? 4 Q inspector's handbook 5 provisions? 6 A Okay. 7 Q Can you refer to page 22 in that 8 document? 9 A All right. 10 Q And do you see a sample Memorandum 11 of Understanding in that document? 12 A I do. 13 Q And in Paragraph No. 1 in that 14 sample Memorandum of Understanding, does it 15 say the Aircrew Designated Examiner program 16 has been established pursuant to the 17 provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations 18 part 183? 19 A Yes, it does. 20 Q Does it say where ln part 183? 21 A No, it does not. 22 Q Do you know where in part 183?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com95 1 A No, I do not. 2 Q And while I'm getting something 3 for you to refer to, do you believe that this 4 language in the Memorandum of Understanding on 5 page 22 of Exhibit C11 is accurate? Do you 6 believe that Aircrew Designated Examiners, as 7 that term is used in part 135, are designated 8 under part 183? 9 A Well, if you want to do that, this 10 regulation that you have is from September of 11 2008. So I don't know 12 Q I'm sorry. What regulation? 13 A The

-- well, excuse me. Not the 14 regulation. The 8900.1 excerpt that's in this 15 book 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- 1s dated 2008. 18 Q And did you 19 A So it would have been current at 20 the time of 2010. But I can't tell you that 21 it's current as of today. But as of 2010 what 22 was in here I believe was fairly accurate.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com96 1 Q Okay. 2 MR. JACKSON: May I approach the 3 witness? 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 5 BY MR. JACKSON: 6 Q I hand you what's been marked for 7 identification purposes as Respondent's 8 Exhibit No. 11. 9 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor? 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 11 BY MR. JACKSON: 12 Q Please take a moment and review 13 that regulation, if you would. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: While he's doing 15 that, am I missing an exhibit? 9 was the MSPB 16 case. 11 is what you just proffered. I'm 17 asking Respondent. 18 MR. JACKSON: Oh. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't have

-- I 20 don't have

-- principally have a -- 21 MR. JACKSON: Yeah. Mine, 22 unfortunately, are not in order because he's

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-- 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Well, 3 let's

-- that's fine. 4 MR. JACKSON: I apologize. 5 BY MR. JACKSON: 6 Q Have you had the opportunity to 7 review that? 8 A I have. 9 Q All right. And does this appear 10 to be a copy of the FAR 183.23 pilot 11 examiners? 12 A Yes, it does. 13 Q Is that what we're talking about? 14 A No. 15 Q Is this regulation relevant to a 16 discussion of Aircrew Designated Examiners as 17 that phrase is used in FAR 135.339A2? 18 A I don't believe so, no. 19 Q Is part 183 relevant to Aircrew 20 Designated Examiners as that term is used in 21 135.339? 22 A I think it's relevant in the

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1 discussion, yes, because that's where the 2 authority comes from, from the regulation to 3 be able to come up with an MOU. 4 Q What and I didn't mean to 5 interrupt your answer. Did you complete your 6 answer? 7 A Yeah, that was correct. 8 Q All right. So if this guidance 1n 9 the inspector's handbook is correct, it means 10 that the Memorandum of Understanding to create 11 anAircrewDesignatedExaminer, 135.339, comes 12 from part 183; is that correct? Is that your 13 testimony? 14 A No. First off, I don't like the 15 idea that you are saying that the authority 16 created a designated examiner comes out of 17 339

-- 135339. I don't think that has 18 anything to do with it. Under 133

-- or 19 excuse me -- 135339, all it's saying is that 20 a check airman needs to have an observation by 21 an FAA examiner or an Aircrew Designated 22 Examiner.

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1 That doesn't give me any 2 authority. It doesn't glve anybody any 3 authority to create a designated examiner or 4 to have a program or to do anything else with 5 a designated examiner. It just says one of 6 those few people could do that observation for 7 a check alrman. 8 Q What Federal Aviation Regulation 9 glves the authority to create an Aircrew 10 Designated Examiner as that term lS used in 11 135.339A2? 12 A 18323. 13 Q Would you read-- well, I'll read 14 it and see if you agree with it. 15 A Okay. 16 Q The title is 183.23, pilot exams. 17 A Correct. 18 Q It states, Any pilot examlner, 19 instrument rating examiner, or airline 20 transport pilot examinermay, as authorized ln 21 his designation, accept applications for 22 flight tests necessary for issuing pilot

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com100 1 certificates and ratings under this chapter. 2 Is that correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Is an observation check, as 5 required of a check airman under 135.339A2, a 6 certificate? 7 A No, it's not. 8 Q Is it a rating? 9 A No, it's not. 10 Q Where is it in part 183? 11 A Part 183 establishes the basis to 12 have pilot examiners. The 8900 goes further 13 in the ADE program defining a program because 14 air carriers are unique operations. 183 was 15 designed as a stand-alone thing for a general 16 aviation pilot examiner that could go out and 17 give a type rating in an aircraft, whatever 18 aircraft it 1s. 19 Say it's an Airbus 320. I could 20 give a designee an opportunity or I could 21 create a designee that would be allowed to go 22 out and give check rides in that airplane. I

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com101 1 could create a training center evaluator that 2 would go out and give check rides ln that 3 airplane to anybody that came along and had 4 the money and passed the TSA background 5 check

-- 6 Q So 7 A to get that rating. 8 Q lS it your testimony that no 9 one can give a check ride required under 10 the FARs without going through the ADE 11 program? 12 A No. But that check ride

-- that 13 designee can glve a check ride in that 14 aircraft. If an operator says, you know, I 15 need more than that; I want something that's 16 customized tomy operationbecause it's unique 17 in its function, in its scope, in its depth; 18 I want something unique to my operation

-- 19 the FAA said, Sure, we can create this thing 20 calledanAircrewDesignatedExaminerprogram, 21 and we're going to create a designee program, 22 and we're going to have this Memorandum of

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1 Understanding because we 1re going to allowyou 2 to do some other things. 3 One of the other things 1s since 4 you 1ve gone through that operator/s training/ 5 you 1 re familiar enough with that operator 1 S 6 procedures/ manuals 1 et cetera. 1 1m going to 7 give you the authority to go out and observe 8 their check airmen. You/ yourself/ have been 9 a check airman at that operator for at least 10 a year before I make you a designated examiner 11 under the MOU. 12 You have enough background that 13 you could do that observation and see if 14 another check airman has the skill set and the 15 experience required for that operator in that 16 operator/s procedures and knowledge of his 17 manuals. 18 So we needed to create something 19 in addition to what the regulations said in 20 order to cover these situations where we need 21 more in-depth knowledge of the situation. And 22 that 1s what we did when we created an ADE

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com103 1 program under an MOU. 2 Q So you created requirements not 3 stated in any Federal Aviation Regulation? 4 A Not me. I didn't create any 5 requirements. 6 Q I

-- I understand. And I did not 7 mean to accuse you unjustly. I apologize. 8 The inspector's handbook provision that

-- 9 that is admitted as Complainant's Exhibit No. 10 11, it

-- not you -- creates requirements to 11 become an air crewprogram designee under part 12 135339A2; lS that correct? Is that your 13 testimony? 14 A No. I still don't think it's 15 under part 139339. What it does is the 16 inspector's handbook allows an operator and 17 the FAA to create an air crew program designee 18 that could conduct an observation as required 19 under 339. 20 Q It creates requirements not stated 21 in any Federal Aviation Regulation; is that 22 correct?

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1 A 

### That is correct. 2 Q 

### Does the inspector 1 

### s handbook 3 provisionprovidedbythe FAA inComplainant 1 

### s 4 

### Exhibit No. 11 

### talk about an air crew program 5 

### designee? 6 A 

### Yes 1 

### it does. 7 Q 

### You have a 

### great deal of 8 exper1ence with flight simulators/ don 1

### t you? 9 A 

### Yes 1 

### I do. 10 Q 

### Are you familiar with part 60? 11 A 

### Somewhat. Not off the top of my 12 head 1 

### but 13 Q 

### If I were to tell you that the 14 

### title is

-- that it covers flight simulation/ 15 

### would that ring any bells with you? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### All right. Is the term air crew 18 

### program designee used under part 60? 19 A 

### I believe so. 20 Q 

### All right. And the term air crew 21 

### program designee is not used in part 135; 

### 1s 22 that correct?

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1 A I do not believe so, no. 2 Q Okay. Air crew program designee 3 lS used 1n part 61, isn't it? 4 A I believe so. 5 Q And part 61 covers the issuance of 6 certificates and ratings to airmen; isn't that 7 correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Air crew program designee is not 10 used interchangeably in the regulations, is 11 it? Air crew program -- I'm sorry. I've done 12 well so far. Aircrew Designated Examiner and 13 air crewprogram designee, these terms are not 14 used interchangeably in the Federal Aviation 15 Regulations, are they? 16 A That, I would say I believe they 17 are. But I can't tell you 100 percent on that 18 one. 19 Q I understand. 20 A The only**pla~e** I've seen Aircrew 21 Designated Examiner is in 135 and 121 in the 22 same place.

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1 Q Can you explain that answer? 2 A 339 135339 uses the term 3 Aircrew Designated Examiner. 4 Q Right. 5 A I believe that's one of the only 6 places it's used ln the entire regulation. 7 But I do believe there's a like paragraph 8 under 121 that has the same phrase. 9 Q And I -- I don't doubt that. But 10 we're not being charged under part 121, are 11 we? 12 A No, no. 13 Q And we're not being charged under 14 part 60, are we? 15 A No. Not that I know of, no. 16 Q And is it your testimony that to 17 obtain an Aircrew Designated Examiner under 18 135.339A2, an air carrier must first have an 19 alr crew program designee? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Under part 60. Air crew program 22 designee is not used in anywhere but part 60

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com107 1 and 61; isn't that correct? 2 A Well, I could ask you the same 3 question, I guess. You're telling me the 4 check airmen which is used in the regulation 5 frequently is a term that you understand. But 6 this exhibit you just gave me says check 7 pilot. Is**t~at** different? 8 Q Well, it's really tempting to 9 trade places with you, but

-- so 10 A So what I would offer 11 Q my limited understanding is we 12 don't get to do that. 13 A What I would offer to you is I 14 wish our Government had written rules that 15 were crystal clear and had everything we 16 needed every time in plain and easy to 17 Q All right. I'll answer that 18 question. I agree. 19 A easy-to-understand language. 20 But sometimes the language gets transferred. 21 In 8900 there is a paragraph in here that says 22 you can use check pilot interchangeably with

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com108 1 check airman. 2 There is a paragraph in here that 3 says alr crew program designee falls under 183 4 in a Memorandum of Understanding. And in 5 order to do an observation required under 6 137339, the only way you can do that is to be 7 an air crew program designee when the 8 Memorandum of Understanding in an air crew -- 9 Q And so -- 10 A examiner program. 11 Q that's what the inspector's 12 handbook says. And you cannot cite a Federal 13 Aviation Regulation that explains how the 14 handbook arrived at that conclusion. 15 A No. I couldn't cite a regulation 16 that cites 17 Q All right. 18 A -- that arrives at that, no. 19 Q All right. The regulations do 20 specifically, FAR 135.337 and 339, they do 21 state the requirements to become a check 22 airman. And I'11 try not to say check

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1 pilot

-- a check airman; 1s that correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q All right. And 339 1s where the 4 phrase Aircrew Designated Examiner is used, 5 correct? 6 A I believe so, correct. 7 Q The rule states, No additional 8 requirement for a check airman to become an 9 Aircrew Designated Examiner employed by the 10 company, correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q So the only way an operator would 13 know that there are requirements that are not 14 stated in the FARs, but are stated in the 15 inspector's handbook, would be to read the 16 inspector's handbook; is that correct? 17 A Or ask the inspector that signed 18 their certificate. There are more than one 19 way to skin a cat. But yes, that would be 20 a -- 21 Q I -- 22 A -- way to do it is to read the

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1 8900. 2 Q Would it be better to just ask the 3 inspector? 4 A I don't believe so. 5 Q Well, can this be subject to 6 can the inspector's handbook be subject to 7 interpretation? 8 A Certainly there are things that 9 are subject to interpretation. 10 Q So would it be wise to ask the 11 inspector's interpretation? 12 A If you're asking me what I would 13 consider wise, I can tell you that. Or

-- 14 Q Go ahead. 15 A What I would consider w1se is I 16 would look up what the 8900 says and make my 17 own opinion. And then I would ask the 18 inspector what he thought about it. And if I 19 disagreed, I'd point to where I thought it was 20 different in the 8900 or the regulations. And 21 then I would have something more to gq on. 22 Q All right. The entire well, we NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com111 1 don't have the entire Order 8900 in this 2 exhibit; 1s that correct? 3 A Yeah, that's correct. 4 Q How long is the inspector's 5 handbook Order 8900 (indiscernible)? 6 A I have never seen it printed. But 7 I would assume it would be six or eight inches 8 tall if you printed it all out and stacked it 9 on the desk. 10 Q Okay. Perhaps even thousands of 11 pages? 12 A Yes. That would be an easy guess. 13 Q To your knowledge, has the FAA 14 ever issued an advisory circular that explains 15 how to create an Aircrew Designated Examiner 16 as that term 1s used in 135.339A2? 17 A I am not aware. I don't know. 18 Q Okay. An advisory circular is 19 guidance material from the FAA to the 20 industry; is that correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Okay.

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1 A One of several, but yes. That's 2 correct. 3 Q Another one would be the 4 aeronautical information manual? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Do you know of anything in the 7 aeronautical information manual that would 8 explain 135.339A2's use of the phrase Aircrew 9 Designated Examiner? 10 A Not to my knowledge, no. 11 Q Do you know of any guidance that's 12 issued to the industry, rather than to the 13 inspectors, that would explain any additional 14 requirements to become an Aircrew Designated 15 Examiner that are not stated in the 16 regulations? 17 A None, other than the 8900, that I 18 can think of. 19 Q And the 8900 lS issued to 20 inspectors. It's just available for review by 21 the public; is that correct? 22 A I believe it's issued

-- I mean, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com113 1 it's put online with the intent that it's open 2 source for everybody to use. 3 Q I understand. 4 A I've never been handed a copy of 5 it, just to make that clear. 6 Q It might break your arm. Is that 7 possible? 8 A It's not really --it's not issued 9 to us either as inspectors. It's on a Web 10 site that we're given access to, just like the 11 public is. 12 Q All right. 13 MR. JACKSON: I have no further 14 questions. Thank you. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 18 Q Inspector, so if you wanted to 19 find 8900, could you Google it? 20 A Oh. Yes. In fact, I do that all 21 the time. It's quicker than going through 22 the FAA site.

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1 Q Is there any guidance out there 2 that suggests that an all checks designation 3 confers ADE status on a check airman? 4 A No. None, whatsoever. 5 Q Okay. Now let's talk about the 6 ways that an operator would know whether they 7 had an ADE program. Could they go to 8900? 8 A They wouldn't know if they had a 9 program that way. But if they wanted to, if 10 they were interested in having a designee on 11 staff, they could go to the 8900 to figure out 12 what process to use to start the process. 13 Q Could that call their POI? 14 A Yes, they could. 15 Q Can they call the FSDO and talk to 16 a manager? 17 A Yes, they could. 18 Q Okay. In your opinion, is it 19 reasonable for a company to just assume that 20 they have one? 21 A No. Absolutely not. 22 MR. LOMAZOW: No further

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com115 1 questions, Your Honor. 2. JUDGE GOODWIN: Any questions 3 based on the redirect? 4 MR. JACKSON: No, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you are 6 instructed not to discuss your testimony with 7 anybody prior to the conclusion of the 8 hearing. You may step down. 9 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 11 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, the 12 People rest. Or 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: People? 14 MR. LOMAZOW: I apologize. The 15 Complainant rests. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. How many 17 witnesses do you expect to have? 18 MR. JACKSON: Two. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me make a 20 suggestion. Rather than breaking your train 21 of thought in 25 minutes, why don't we break 22 now for lunch. After lunch we'll return, and

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-- 3 MR. LOMAZOW: No, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: in the FAA's 5 case? I'm golng to put the FAA's documents 6 and the Respondent's documents up here on the 7 bench with a black magic marker. And I'd 1ike 8 the two of you to go through and make sure 9 that redactions are made before we go back on 10 the record. 11 What we'll do is reconvene at 12 about 1 o'clock, and we'll go to conclusion. 13 All right. So at this point we'll go off the 14 record. 15 (Off the record for about an hour 16 and a half for lunch and then back on the 17 record.) 18 AFTERNOON SESSION 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 20 record. Respondent, you want to call your 21 next witness? 22 MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, the

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1 oh. I'm sorry. Respondents. Go ahead. I 2 thought you said Complainant. 3 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may I 4 give a very brief openlng before calling my 5 first witness? 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 7 OPENING STATEMENT 8 BY MR. JACKSON: 9 Your Honor, the evidence will show 10 that this is a simple case. Complainant and 11 Respondent agree that the heart of this issue 12 is whether or not flights on March 26, 2010 13 constituted an observation check as required 14 of a check airman under 135.339A2. 15 The Complainant has already 16 explained that the other two regulations 17 alleged to be violated in the complaint flow 18 from the conclusion by the Complainant that 19 135339A2 was violated. In other words, the 20 recordkeeping violations flow from only the 21 allegationunder 135.339A2. There hasn't been 22 anytestimonypresentedthat MountainAviation

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com118 1 doesn't know how to keep records or doesn't 2 keep records. 3 And with that, Your Honor, I would 4 1ike to call our first witness, Gary Emmerson. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Stand and 6 ralse your right hand. Do you solemnly swear 7 the testimony you glve will be the truth, the 8 whole truth, and nothing but the truth under 9 the penalty of perjury? 10 THE WITNESS: I do. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 12 State your full name and spell your first and 13 last name. 14 THE WITNESS: My full name is Gary 15 Kent Emmerson. Gary is spelled G-a-r-y. 16 Emmerson lS spelled with two 17 m's

-- E-m-m-e-r-s-o-n. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 19 GARY KENT EMMERSON 20 called as a witness on behalf of 21 the Respondent herein, having been first duly 22 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

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1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. JACKSON: 3 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Emmerson. 4 What is your occupation? 5 A I'm an aviation consultant and 6 contract pilot. 7 Q What qualifications do you have as 8 a pilot? 9 A I'm rated as an airline transport 10 pilot. I hold type ratings in a 11 Gulfstream G4, Citation 650, a King Air 300, 12 and a Beech 1900. 13 Q Can you tell me what your 14 experience is as a pilot? Your job 15 experience? 16 A I have 35 years of experience, 32 17 of which are in 135 operations. I've been a 18 manager. I've been an owner of a 135 19 operation. I'vebeenthechiefpilot. Ihave 20 an 18 aircraft 45 pilot operation in 135 21 operations. I've flown in commuter 22 operations. Those were 135 also. And I've

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com120 1 also flown part 91 operations. I've got about 2 12,000 hours total time, 7500 hours at PIC 3 with international operations experience, 4 along with multiple other tasks and duties. 5 Q I understand. Were you ever 6 employed by Mountain Aviation? 7 A I was. 8 Q During what period of time were 9 you employed at Mountain Aviation? 10 A I was employed at Mountain 11 Aviation from June 1 of 1999 to August 31, 12 2012. 13 Q Okay. What

-- pardon me. Did you 14 serve as the chief pilot at Mountain Aviation? 15 A I did. 16 Q What were your duties· as chief 17 pilot? 18 A My duties as chief pilot were to 19 oversee safety on a daily basis with respect 20 to crew operations and aircraft operations, to 21 coordinate the training of the crew, and to 22 keep the records of such training, as well as

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-- their 2 training operations with maintenance sequences 3 on the aircraft. 4 Q Did the recordkeeping obligations 5 that you just mentioned include being 6 responsible for making sure the check airmen 7 received a required observation check every 8 two years? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Okay. How did you track that 11 requirement? 12 A Mountain Aviation had invested a 13 significant amount of money in a software 14 program called FOS in which not only are our 15 airmen, but our check airmen, were entered 16 into. And any any required checks or 17 observations, training events, things of that 18 nature were automatically tracked by the 19 software. 20 Q You said a significant amount of 21 money. Can you give us an idea of what? 22 A Yeah. It's

-- last I knew

-- and

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com122 1 they may have raised their prices. But last 2 I knew it was about $12,000 a year. 3 Q A year? 4 A A year 5 Q Okay. 6 A -- that Mountain pays for this. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go off the 8 record for just a second. Kyle? 9 (Off the record for about 20 10 seconds and then back on the record.) 11 MR. JACKSON: Back on the record? 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Back on the 13 record. 14 MR. JACKSON: May I approach the 15 witness? 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Thank you. 17 BY MR. JACKSON: 18 Q Mr. Emmerson, I'm handing you what 19 has previously been marked for identification 20 purposes as Respondent's Exhibit No. 6 21 (indiscernible) Do you recognize that 22 document?

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1 A Yes, I do. 2 Q What is it? 3 A This is my sworn affidavit as to 4 my employment with Mountain Aviation and to 5 the events surrounding the alleged violation. 6 Q And were you chief pilot when 7 the FAA alleged a violation of 135.339A2? 8 A I was. 9 Q Okay. How would you arrange to 10 have observation checks conducted for your 11 check airmen, the checks required by 12 135.339A2? 13 A As part of my oversight as chief 14 pilot, the training department normally 15 tracked the records part of it. And I oversaw 16 that. So there were two methods. One, I 17 could either contact a POI directly myself or 18 one of my designees might make the call and 19 contact it to try and schedule the 20 observation. Usually we contacted them by 21 phone. 22 Q Do you know someone named Alvin

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com124 1 Hankins? 2 A I do. 3 Q Who is that? 4 A He is a former POI of Mountain 5 Aviation while I was chief pilot. 6 Q Do you recall what period of time 7 he was your Principal Operations Inspector? 8 A Yes. It was approximately 2003 to 9 2009. 10 Q Roughly slx years? 11 A Yeah. Roughly six years. 12 Q Iri that six-year period, was 13 Mountain Aviation ever accused of failing

-- 14 I'm talking the period between 2003 2009. Was 15 Mountain Aviation ever accused of failing to 16 conduct observation checks of check airmen in 17 accordance with 135.339A2? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you ever contact your 20 Principal Operations Inspector, Mr. Hankins, 21 to schedule those observation rides? 22 A On different occasions, yes.
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1 Q And you describe some of those ) 2 phone calls in your affidavit; lS that 3 correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q Can you describe for me with 6 detail the nature of the phone calls that you 7 describe in your affidavit? 8 A Normally, I would place a call and 9 explain the need that we had. At that time we 10 would see if we could come to some scheduling 11 arrangement that would meet the requirements. 12 And often we could. Sometimes we couldn't. 13 So one specific time when I was 14 talking with Mr. Hankins, we couldn't arrange 15 for his schedule. His schedule didn't permit 16 him to come and provide us with an 17 observation. And I said, Would you like me to 18 suspend checking? 19 He asked me specifically, Have the 20 check airmen ridden with each other? I 21 said, Yes. He said, Continue checking and 22 advise me when the next check is due; I will

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com126 1 check when my schedule allows. 2 Q Did that conversation/ or words to 3 that effect/ occur more than once? 4 A That specific conversation/ not 5 that I recall

.. 6 Q Okay. In those conversations/ did 7 Inspector Hankins tell you that he had 8 designated one or more of your check airmen as 9 Aircrew DesignatedExaminers under 135.339A2? 10 Did he use those words in the conversation? 11 A He did not use those specific 12 words. 13 Q Okay. Why didn 1t you stop the I 14 check airmen from their checking functions 15 when Mr. Hankins was unavailable to perform 16 that function? 17 A Because he had told me to continue 18 checking. So to satisfy my curiosity1 I 19 looked at their LOAs and compared it with the 20 regulation to see if there could be some 21 reason for this to occur. 22 Q When you say LOAs 1 are you

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com127 1 referring to the all checks check airmen 2 letters issued to Mr. Getty and Mr. Taft? 3 A That's correct. There's a letter 4 that designates the check airmen as an 5 authorized representative of the FAA to 6 conduct checks and examinations on behalf of 7 the FAA. And in the case of Mr. Taft and 8 Mr. Getty, they held designations of check 9 airmen that authorized them to do all checks. 10 Q Okay. I'm going to hand you 11 what's been marked Respondent's Exhibit 4 and 12 Respondent's Exhibit 5. 13 MR. JACKSON: And, Your Honor, 14 just so there's no confusion, these were also 15 marked by the Complainant, but they were not 16 offered into evidence. So 4 and 5. And we've 17 marked out the birthdays on the 18 (indiscernible) 19 BY MR. JACKSON: 20 Q Mr. Emmerson, can you tell me what 21 Exhibit No. 4 is? 22 A Exhibit No. 4 lS Form 8410 where

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1 check Airman Oren Taft checked Airman Rodney 2 Getty. 3 Q And what's the date on that? 4 A The date is March 26, 2010. 5 Q Okay. And what is Respondent's 6 Exhibit No. 5? 7 A Exhibit No. 5 is the same form 8 with Rodney Getty acting as check airman and 9 checking Oren Taft, again on the same day, 10 March 26, 2010. 11 Q What 1s the significance of these 12 two flights on March 26, 2010 in relation to 13 the question of whether observation checks 14 were conducted on one of your check airmen? 15 A All right. The significance of 16 these two checks is that because both Rodney 17 Getty and Oren Taft held letters designating 18 them as check airmen able to check and examine 19 on behalf of the FAA, this

-- this checking of 20 each other actually checked and served as an 21 observation of the check airman's checking 22 ability.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com129 1 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor 1 at this 2 time Respondent would like to offer 3 Respondent 1 S Exhibit No. 4 into evidence? 4 MR. LOMAZOW: No objection/ Your 5 Honor. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent 1s 4 for 7 identification is received into evidence as 8 Respondent 1 S 4. 9 (Respondent 1s Exhibit No. 4 was 10 received into evidence.) 11 MR. JACKSON: Respondent would 12 like to offer Respondent 1 S Exhibit No. 5 into 13 evidence? 14 MR. LOMAZOW: No objection. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent 1s 5 for 16 identification is received into evidence as 17 Respondent/s 5. 18 (Respondent 1s Exhibit No. 5 was 19 received into evidence.) 20 MR. JACKSON: And Respondent would 21 like to offer Respondent 1 S Exhibit No. 6 into 22 evidence?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com130 1 MR. LOMAZOW: No objection. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 6 for 3 identification is received into evidence as 4 Respondent's 6. 5 (Respondent's Exhibit No. 6 was 6 received into evidence.) 7 BY MR. JACKSON: 8 Q Mr. Emmerson, there's a notebook 9 1n front of you that has tabs. One of those 10 tabs is marked C, as in Charlie, 7. If you 11 would turn to that? 12 A All right. 13 Q And what document do you see? 14 A I see my letter dated February 16, 15 2011 16 Q All right. 17 A -- to Mr. Lang. 18 Q Why did you write this letter? 19 A I wrote this letter in response to 20 a notification that we received from Inspector 21 Lang of opening a letter of investigation 22 against us.

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1 Q And was that letter of 2 investigation ln regard to this issue of 3 whether a check airman had been checked under 4 135.339? 5 A It was. 6 Q Okay. In the second paragraph of 7 that letter it states that on January 19th 8 the FAA was at your office to revlew 9 documents. Were you present on January 19th 10 when the FAA came? 11 A I was. 12 Q Can you tell us about that 13 meeting? 14 A Sure. 15 Q Please do. 16 A Inspector Lang and two other 17 individuals, one whom was our PMI at the time, 18 Inspector Watts, and another individual 19 whom

-- his name escapes me. I don't 20 remember. I've never met him since

-- was 21 with Chris. 22 And they came to our office, asked

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com132 1 us to review the documents surrounding this 2 case. And we provided them with the documents 3 and a room in which Oren Taft, myself, and 4 Rich Bjelkevig sat down in a meeting with 5 Chris and the other two inspectors. 6 During that meeting, we discussed 7 the issue at length. And I walked them 8 through these exact same details that we just 9 explained here, showed them the letters of 10 authorization designating Oren and Rodney 11 Q Who is Rodney? 12 A Rodney Getty. 13 Q Getty. 14 A Mr. Getty. 15 Q Thank you. 16 A Yes. Designating both of them to 17 act as check airmen and examine airmen for 18 Mountain Aviation on the FAA's behalf. And I 19 noted and showed them that they were approved 20 to do all checks. 21 Q Did they have any reaction to that 22 explanation?

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1 A Yes. 2 Q What was it? 3 A Yes. Inspector Lang looked at the 4 document. And he kind of read it. And he 5 says, It says all checks. And he handed it 6 across the table to Inspector Watts. Shortly 7 thereafter, the meeting was concluded. And 8 the inspectors left and went on their way. 9 Q And were there any conversations 10 between any of Mountain Aviation's personnel 11 and Inspector Lang after that January 19th 12 meetingbut before the letter of investigation 13 dated January 31st? 14 A There

-- there were two that I can 15 think of. One occurred about an hour and a 16 half after the meeting that morning. We left 17 the meeting, and Oren and I went to lunch. On 18 the way back from lunch, Inspector Lang called 19 on Oren's phone as we were driving back to the 20 office. And I asked Oren to put the phone on 21 speaker so I could hear what Mr. Lang had to 22 say. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com134

1 And he informed us that he had 2 been 1n touch with someone higher up. I don't 3 know who it was that he was referring to 4 exactly, but someone higher up who, indeed, 5 had said, Yes, they're perfectly legal to do 6 that. 7 At that time, Inspector Lang 8 informed us that we could put everyone back on 9 the line because, as a result of his original 10 finding, I had taken everybody off the line 11 for safety reasons and

-- and wanted to make 12 sure that everything was okay. 13 So during this conversation he 14 said, You can put everybody back on the line; 15 everything's okay. I asked Inspector Lang, or 16 had Oren ask, to send,me that in writing via 17 e-mail, which never came. The following 18 day

-- that was the first conversation. 19 The following day we had applied 20 to get special instrument approach 21 authorization in Aspen. And Inspector Lang 2 2 was in Aspen with another check airman of

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1 Mountain Aviation to observe this special 2 instrument approach training and to work on 3 the authorization for it, at which time the 4 conversation surrounding the issues of this 5 alleged violation came up. 6 And Inspector Lang again confirmed 7 to that check airman that it had all been 8 resolved; that there was, ln fact, no 9 wrongdoing; and that we could go back to 10 normal. That was on a Thursday. 11 On the following Monday, we were 12 notifiedverbally

-- actually, notmyself, but 13 my training department manager -- that, Well, 14 we're going to file a letter of LOI against 15 Mountain Aviation. 16 Q In this letter that's been 17 previously admitted as Complainant's Exhibit 18 No. 7, near the bottom of the first page, do 19 you describe some actions that Mountain 20 Aviation took in response to the letter of 21 investigation? 22 A Yes, I did.

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1 Q And did you do those actions 2 because you agreed with the FAA's letter of 3 investigation or for some other reason? 4 A No. We took these actions not 5 because we thought we were in agreement. But 6 we took these actions

-- anytime there's any 7 question whether or not there 1s some 8 competency issue, it could directly relate to 9 safety. And our obligation to the public with 10 air carrier operations is to ensure their 11 safety first. 12 So the only prudent thing was 13 long before we got the letter of 14 investigation, was to take the people offline 15 until we could get this issue settled and 16 resolved. 17 Q In your duties as chief pilot at 18 Mountain Aviation, did you follow the Federal 19 Aviation Regulations? 20 A Absolutely. 21 Q Did you also consult with advisory 22 circulars issued by the FAA?

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1 A Sure. 2 Q Is there any other guidance 3 material issued by the FAA that you regularly 4 consulted? 5 A Airmen's information manual. 6 Q Okay. Did you consider the 7 inspector's handbook to be directed at you as 8 an operator? 9 A No. The director's handbook lS 10 the FAA's communication to him. 11 Q The inspector's handbook? 12 A Yeah. The inspector's handbook, 13 yeah, is the FAA's communication to him. I

-- 14 I'm not an FAA employee. I never have been. 15 I don't think I ever will be. And I haven't 16 been trained to understand their 17 communications or -- or read their internal 18 communications. So I

-- no, I wouldn't read 19 those. 20 MR. JACKSON: Okay. Thank you, 21 Mr. Emmerson. 22 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 2 MR. LOMAZOW: Yes, Your Honor. 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 5 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Emmerson. 6 A Good afternoon. 7 Q I'm going to read you 135339A2. 8 No certificate holder may use a person nor may 9 any person serve as a check airman, unless 10 within the preceding 24 calendar months that 11 person satisfactorily conducts a proficiency 12 or competency check under the observation of 13 an FAA inspector or an Aircrew Designated 14 Examiner employed by the operator. 15 Now, that definition doesn't 16 say FAA InspectorAircrew Designated Examiner 17 or the air carrier's own check airmen, does 18 it? 19 A That definition, which you just 20 said was a definition, says an Aircrew 21 Designated Examiner employed by the operator. 22 Q Right.

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1 A Right. 2 Q So is it your testimony that you 3 employ an Aircrew Designated Examiner? 4 A It's my-- my testimony that the 5 letter of authorization is, in fact, 6 designating a check airman to operate on 7 behalf of the FAA to check air crew -- 8 Q Okay. That's not the question I'm 9 asking you. 10 A Okay. 11 Q Does Mountain Aviation employ an 12 Aircrew Designated Examiner? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And when did you start believing 15 that Mountain Aviation employed an Aircrew 16 Designated Examiner? 17 A When

-- when I had the 18 conversation with Mr. Hankins and I read this 19 and got the direction to continue checking, 20 the Aircrew Designated Examiner fit in the 21 context of the conversation we had. 22 Q If it

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1 A That

-- that is not -- as I see a 2 title, it is a definition, as you spoke just 3 a minute ago. 4 Q It fit 1n the context of the 5 conversation. So in the context of that 6 conversation you never said to Al Hankins, By 7 the way, I

-- you know, Do we have an Aircrew 8 Designated Examiner? Do we employ one? 9 A No. The conversation about an 10 Aircrew Designated Examiner never came up in 11 that conversation. 12 Q Okay. So you had no reason to 13 believe based on that conversation that you 14 had an air crew -- that Mountain employed an 15 Aircrew Designated Examiner? 16 A As I previously stated, after that 17 conversation I went and looked at the LOAs and 18 reread 135339A2 and logically concluded that 19 that was ln the context with that 20 conversation. 21 Q You concluded based on your own -- 22 your own thought process?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com141 1 A No. I concluded that based on 2 what Inspector Hankins told me. 3 Q Okay. But you never called up 4 Inspector Hankins and said, By the way, I want 5 to make sure I have this right; I believe we 6 have an Aircrew Designated Examiner; is that 7 what you meant? 8 You never had that conversation 9 with him? 10 A The

-- the question wasn't about 11 the Aircrew Designated Examiner. He had told 12 me to continue checking. So I had no reason 13 to have that conversation with him. 14 Q Okay. But what I'm trying to fihd 15 out though, what I'm trying to understand is 16 when did you start believing you employed an 17 Aircrew Designated Examiner? 18 A I believed that Mountain Aviation 19 employed check airmen. 20 Q Okay. So you did not believe that 21 they employed Aircrew Designated Examiners? 22 A I believed that Mountain Aviation

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com142 1 employed check airmen, and they could fill the 2 context of 135339A2. 3 Q And yet, no one from the FAA ever 4 told you, Yes, you have an Aircrew Designated 5 Examiner? 6 A No one from the FAA told me I had 7 an Aircrew Designated Examiner. 8 Q How long have you been the chief 9 pilot

-- or how long were you the chief pilot 10 for Mountain Aviation? 11 A From spring of 2002 to fall of 12 2011. 13 Q So you were responsible for 14 ensuring that the check airmen received the 15 proper checks, the proper observations, 16 correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q So don't you think in this case 19 you should have done a little bit more to find 20 out what the status of Ronald (sic) Getty was? 21 A Do I think I should have? 22 Q Yes.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 . COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com143 1 A I think

-- I think the status of 2 Rodney Getty was correct. 3 Q And don't you think you should 4 have called Al Hankins and said, Is Rodney 5 Getty an Aircrew Designated Examiner? Or, Is 6 Oren Taft an Aircrew Designated Examiner? 7 A No. I don't think I should have. 8 I

-- I think I had every reason to think 9 everything was legal. 10 Q And you never called a manager at 11 the FSDO to inquire as to whether you had an 12 Aircrew Designated Examiner? 13 A I don't believe I've spoken to the 14 manager of the FSDO ever once. 15 Q Has Oren Taft or Rodney Getty ever 16 presented you with any type of certificate 17 showing that they're Aircrew Designated 18 Examiners? 19 A Their LOAs. 20 Q But that's not the question I 21 asked you. I didn't ask if they were LOAs. 22 I asked did they ever give you any type of

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1 certificate saying, Oren Taft, Aircrew 2 Designated Examiner? 3 A I never I never requested any 4 from them, nor did they ever offer me. 5 Q Okay. So as the chief pilot for 6 Mountain Aviation, you just assumed based on 7 your own reasoning that Mountain Aviation 8 employed an Aircrew Designated Examiner? 9 MR. JACKSON: Misstates prior 10 objection, misstates prior testimony. 11 MR. LOMAZOW: I'll

-- I'll 12 withdraw that. I'll withdraw that. 13 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 14 Q One final question. As the chief 15 pilot for

-- or the former chief pilot for 16 Mountain Aviation, do you agree that an air 17 carrier such as Mountain Aviation has an 18 independent duty to not violate the Federal 19 Aviation Regulations? 20 MR. JACKSON: Independent of what? 21 Is the objection. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained.

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1 MR. LOMAZOW: Actually, I'll 2 withdraw that. I don't have any further 3 questions, Your Honor. 4 MR. JACKSON: Nothing further, 5 Your Honor. May this witness be excused? 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Sir, you're 7 instructed not to discuss your testimony with 8 anybody prior to the conclusion of the 9 hearing. You are free to step down. 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 11 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, 12 Respondent Mountain Aviation calls Rich 13 Bjelkevig. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, do you swear 15 the testimony you will give will be the truth, 16 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth 17 under the penalty of perjury? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 20 State your full name for the record and spell 21 your first and last name. 22 THE WITNESS: My name is Richy

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1 Allen Bjelkevig. The first name 1S 2 spelled R-i-c-h-y. The last name is 3 spelled B-, as in boy, j-e-1-k-e-v-, as 1n 4 victor, 1-g, as 1n golf. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 6 RICHY ALLEN BJELKEVIG 7 called as a witness on behalf of 8 the Respondent herein, having been first duly 9 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. JACKSON: 12 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Bjelkevig. 13 A Good afternoon. 14 Q What 1S your occupation, 15 Mr. Bjelkevig? 16 A I am the president and director of 17 operations of Mountain Aviation. 18 Q And do you hold any airmen 19 certificates? 20 A I do. 21 Q What are they? 22 A I hold an airline transport pilot

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com147 1 license and hold previous licenses that led up 2 to that and a flight engineer's license for a 3 Boeing 727. 4 Q How long have you been with 5 Mountain Aviation? 6 A Since its beginning. 7 Q Which was? 8 A February of 1993. 9 Q 1993? 10 A Yes. 11 Q What was your aviation experience 12 prior to 1993? 13 A I had been in the early years, in 14 the '70s, a flight instructor, 2500 hours 15 chief flight instructor, part 91 corporate 16 pilot, chief pilot for (indiscernible) 17 operation, flew FAR 121 as a flight engineer 18 on 727's, first officer on DC9's, 727's; have 19 held, you know, multiple-type ratings, 20 Gulfstream 400, Citation 650, Citation 500 21 series. So

-- and I have about 14,000 hours 22 of flying time.

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1 Q Were you director of operations 2 for Mountain Aviation in 2010? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did your duties as director of 5 operations at MountainAviation includemaking 6 sure that records were kept' up-to-date? 7 A Yes. 8 Q How did you see to that 9 obligation? 10 A You know, I delegated that to 11 Gary, our chief pilot, and our training 12 department. And then they reported to me as 13 to when all those checks were due. 14 Q And was any program, software or 15 other means, used to track records? 16 A Yes. We used FOS, Flight 17 Operation Software. In addition to that, we '18 used an Excel Spreadsheet that was published

19 once a month. 20 Q Aside from the current 21 investigation that we're here to discuss 22 today, has there been any criticism of your NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com149

1 recordkeeping at MountainAviationbythe FAA? 2 A Not that I know of, in all the 3 years that we've been in business. As a 4 matter of fact, I think most POis that we did 5 throughout the years have said it was 6 exemplary. 7 Q Okay. Would you turn now to 8 what's been marked as C7 in the notebook 9 that's 10 A You know, I forgot to get my 11 cheaters over there. 12 Q Oh. 13 A Thank you. 14 Q All right. 15 A Okay. I have it here. 16 Q All right. And is that a letter 17 from Mountain Aviation to the Denver Flight 18 Standards District Office? 19 A Yes, it 1s. 20 Q In the second paragraph, that 21 letter describes a meeting on January 19, 22 2011.

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1 A Uh-huh. 2 Q Were you at that meeting? 3 A Yes, I was. 4 Q Can you tell us what happened at 5 that meeting? 6 A InspectorHankins, InspectorWill, 7 our PMI at the time, and another inspector 8 came into our office unannounced and 9 said, We're here to, you know, do an 10 investigation. We said, We'd be happy to help 11 you out. So we went into a conference room 12 downstairs, and they asked us for certain 13 documentation surrounding this event. 14 And we provided them with all that 15 documentation. They read it. We explained to 16 them what our interpretation of the 17 regulations were in response, you know, which 18 is really contained in this letter. And I 19 think they were surprised that we had evidence 20 there of the letter of authorizations for the 21 check airmen that said, All checks, because 22 sometimes these days they specifywhich checks

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com151 1 are authorized to do. 2 But in those days they wrote, All 3 checks, so that we were authorized to give any 4 check requirements that we needed 1n the 5 company through our check a1rmen. 6 Q And did

-- check airmen letters 7 that your company receives today, they don't 8 say, All checks? 9 A No. It changed somehow. I don't 10 know what happened. 11 Q Okay. What

-- what do they say 12 now? 13 A Now they'll specify which checks 14 are authorized to do-- the 293, 297's, or 15 whatever it may be. 16 Q All right. What was the FAA 17 representatives' reaction to your explanation? 18 A I think they were surprised to see 19 them. The conversation after some 20 discussion back and forth across the table for 21 the next four or five minutes, they took all 22 the documents and said, Well, you know, we'll

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com152 1 have to go back and take a look at this; but 2 this looks like it's sufficient. So

... 3 Q Did they tell you at that time 4 that your position wasn't possible under the 5 inspector's handbook? 6 A No. 7 Q All right. 8 MR. JACKSON: I have no further 9 questions. Thank you. 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 12 Q I'm going to attempt it. Mr. 13 you know what? How do you pronounce your last 14 name? 15 A Just say Rich. You know, that's 16 just really good. 17 Q All right. I'll refer to you as 18 Sir. Okay? I have a very tricky last name 19 too. So I understand. So just touching 20 briefly on the recordkeeping question that 21 counsel asked you -- 22 A Uh-huh.

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1 Q -- so when a pilot such as -- you 2 know, when a Mountain Aviation employed pilot 3 or -- receives a -- or a check airman receives 4 a competency and observation test -- check, 5 you rece1ve

-- there's some paperwork 6 generated, correct? 7 A Certainly. 8 Q So if there wasn't a required 9 check performed, there wouldn't be any 10 paperwork generated? Or if a check wasn't 11 done, then there's no paperwork to generate, 12 correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Okay. Now, this meeting that you 15 had at Mountain Aviation

-- first of all, Al 16 Hankins is not there, correct? 17 A No. No, Al had been gone, 18 obviously. 19 Q Okay. And Mountain Mountain 20 requested this meeting, did they not? Or did 21 they did Mountain request this meeting? 22 A No. Those guys just showed up at

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com154

1 the airport. Now, we did request a meeting in 2 this letter that

-- the FSDO to discuss this 3 1n an unofficial capacity. 4 Q Okay. 5 A But that was never honored. 6 Q Okay. And at 'this hearing

-- I'm 7 sorry. At this meeting, none of the FAA 8 inspectors told you that you had an Aircrew 9 Designated Examiner? 10 A No. 11 MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. No more 12 questions for this witness, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 14 MR. JACKSON: No redirect. And 15 Respondent rests. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any rebuttal? 17 MR. LOMAZOW: No, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So that 19 concludes

-- let me just check to make sure 20 I've got -- if my notes are -- Sir, you can 21 step down. You're instructed not to discuss 22 your testimony.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com155 1 Okay. I show the FAA exhibits as 2 follows: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 were all 3 admitted. 8 we took judicial notice. That's 4 the sanctions table. 9 is admitted. 10 is 5 admitted. And 11, I took judicial notice of 6 because it's publicly available. 7 Now, on the Respondent's side, I 8 show Respondent 1 is the same as Plaintiff's 9 7. I couldn't find Respondent's 2 in the 10 Complainant's list. It wasn't offered. 11 Complainant's 3 is the same as -- I'm sorry. 12 Respondent's 3 is the same as Complainant's 9. 13 And Respondent's 4, 5, 6 were all 14 admitted. 7 is a case citation. 8 is a 15 I'm sorry. 7 and 8 are CFR citations. 9 is 16 a case citation. And 11 is a CFR citation. 17 And none of those were offered. 18 MR. JACKSON: We agree. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Does that sound 20 consistent with your -- 21 MR. LOMAZOW: Yes, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now,

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com156 1 Mr. Jackson, the normal contracts of the court 2 reporter requires that they get a transcript 3 done in, I don't know, it's a couple

-- two 4 weeks? 5 COURT REPORTER: I think so. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: About two weeks. 7 What happens is the transcript gets mailed to 8 the FAA headquarters in Washington DC sometime 9 between now and the time we all retire. Mr. 10

-- and the FAA will get a copy of it in his 11 office. What I'm going to ask you to do is 12 when you get your copy, will you call 13 Mr. Jackson? The two of you, work out a 14 briefing schedule. 15 As I told you when we started, we 16 got the holidays coming up. You know, 17 dependent upon how you do your books, your 18 fiscal year may or may not be coming up. FAA 19 I know has a lot of use-or-lose. So come up 20 with a schedule that accommodates your 21 schedules. If you can agree on something, 22 just send me an order. I'll sign it.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com157 1 If something comes up -- everybody 2 always has that last minute trial you can't 3 get out of

-- talk. And whatever you can 4 agree on, you know, shoot me in a minute 5 order. If you can't agree, let me know. And 6 I'll-- I'll work it out. But once the 7 briefs

-- once we get the transcript, once the 8 briefs are done, then I'll get the decision 9 out. 10 As I said, I'll be mailing the 11 exhibits to the office. I suspect between now 12 and mid December they'll be up on the 13 Internet. I always ask Ms. Matthews to do an 14 additional scrub of all the exhibits to make 15 sure there isn't something that we -- and this 16 is a fairly simple case. We get some complex 17 cases. And you'll find buried on page 32 some 18 footnote with somebody's social security 19 number. And that's the sort of stuff we're 20 looking for. 21 Anything else before we go off the 22 record?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com158

1 

### MR. LOMAZOW: No, 

### Your Honor. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Jackson? 3 

### MR. JACKSON: No, 

### Your Honor. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, thank you 5 all. All of you have a good holiday. And in 6 

### my case, 

### I'll see you next year. 7 

### MR. LOMAZOW: Absolutely. Thank 8 you, 

### Your Honor. 9 

### MR. JACKSON: Thank you, 

### Your 10 

### Honor. Safe travels. 11 

### (Whereupon, the hearing concluded 12 at 1:57 p.m.) 13 14 

### 15 16 

### 17 18 19 20 

### 21 22

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# '176 C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Mountain Aviation

Before: FAA

Date: 11-27-12

Place: Denver, CO

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

(202)234-4433 Court Reporter

NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISIJ\NDAVE.,N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com