# • UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

+ + + + +

: I j DEPARTMENT OF**TRANSPORTA~IO¥** ; ....**;~ ~.''','**  . OFFICE OF HEARINGS it 'i ",,'
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HEARING

IN THE MATTER OF: FAA Docket No. CP10NM0011 FEDERAL EXPRESS CORPORATION DMS Docket No. FAA-2010-0977 VOLUME IV
Thursday, August 25, 2011

The above-entitled matter came on for further hearing, pursuant to recess, at 9:02
a.m.

BEFORE:

(202) 234-4433 THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN Administrative Law Judge

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• APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Complainant: KYLE LOMAZOW, ESQ. of: FAA Office of Regional Counsel 1601 Lind Avenue SW, ANM-7 Renton, Washington 98057 (425) 227-1847 On Behalf of the Respondent: CYNTHIA CHANDLER-SNELL, ESQ. of: FedEx Express 3620 Hacks Cross Road Building B, 3rd Floor Memphis, Tennessee 38125 (901) 434-8361

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www.nealrgross.comWITNESSES: Donald Stiger

EXHIBITS: (None. )

(202) 234-4433 953

RE- REDIRECT CROSS DIRECT CROSS 954 975

MARKED RECEIVED

NEAL 

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# • 954

1 PRO C E E DIN G S 2 9:02 a.m. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Remember we're 4 going to take a break between 11:30 and 11:45 5 to allow the audio system to be worked on, and 6 the audio system will be down. 7 You can be seated. 8 So, Agent Stiger, you want to 9 return to the stand? I remind you that you're 10 still under oath. 11 Counsel. 12 MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Thank you, 13 Your Honor. 14 DONALD STIGER, COMPLAINANT'S WITNESS, 15 PREVIOUSLY SWORN 16 CROSS EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 17 BY MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: 18 Q Agent Stiger, you agree that 19 173 .199 does not apply to a shipment that 20 contains no regulated material; right? 21 A By definition, it's not a 22 hazardous material. Therefore, the HMRs do
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# • 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 955
not apply. 

### Q Okay. And based on the testimony that you've heard and the materials provided to you, you agree that in this particular case regarding UN 3373 shipments, there was no regulated material? A The results of the investigation finally determined that the materials in the two shipments in question were determined not to be

-- meet the requirement or meet the Category B biological substance. Q So in this case, regarding the UN 3373 shipments, no regulated material was improperly transported? A At the time it was tendered, it
was marked, but the subsequent investigation after it was discovered determined that the material did not meet the definition of a Category B infectious substance. Q So there was no regulated material transported at all here? A Ultimately, it was discovered as
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# • 22 956 

### such. Q 

### Okay. Now, I want to clarify something. There are two different types of

-- actually three different types of inspections that we talked about. Do you agree that there is a general inspection of packages, of all packages, when an air carrier loads them onto an aircraft? A 

### picks 'em up when there's-- there's a general inspection when the material lS 

### tendered from a shipper to a carrier. Q 

### And we refer to that often as acceptance; right? A That is the acceptance. Q 

### Okay. For dangerous goods, those shipments require what's really a second inspection, an inspection for the markings, the labeling, to make sure they're properly marked and labeled; right? A The inspection is conducted at the time that the material's offered and picked up by a carrier. So the item becomes regulated
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• 957
1 in transportation when a carrier picks up a 2 hazardous material. 3 Q You understand that there are no 4 air carriers who have dangerous goods 5 specialists picking up packages at someone's 6 front doori right? 7 A In regards to what carriers say is 8 a dangerous goods specialist? No. In the 9 case of FedEx Express, you have air carrier 10 employees who are named courlers that will 11 pick up a hazardous material on that, and 12 there's a preliminary

- - based on your manual, 13 you do a preliminary inspection of that. If 14 it's

-- there's markings and indicators on 15 there, there is a preliminary inspection that 16 is done. There then is a secondary inspection 17 based on procedures established by carriers 18 where they'll have a specifically trained 19 specialist look at that. If at that time the 20 material or the shipment for some reason or 21 another is not in compliance with that, that 22 is why both FedEx Express and UPS Airlines
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• 958

1 have that special permit I believe it's 2 14680

-- that allows them to transport that 3 material by road back

- - no more than I 4 believe it's 150 miles from the orlgln 5 station back to the shipper. In other 6 words, if a regulated party, an air carrier, 7 or any carrier, determines that the material's 8 not in compliance with the Hazardous Material 9 Regulations, they are not authorized to 10 transport the material back. That's hence the 11 special provisions of special permits that 12 were applied for and I believe granted both

-- 13 I

-- I've seen both utilized by FedEx Express 14 as well as UPS Airlines that allows the 15 transport of the material back when it has 16 been recognized at that origin station that 17 it's not in compliance with the HMRs. 18 Q For a regular package

-- 19 A Correct. 20 Q that lS not a declared 21 dangerous good, 22 A Yes
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• 959
1 Q 

### air carriers are required to 2 inspect those 3 A 

### Correct. 4 Q 

### -- which just involves looking

-- 5 I think you had called it the six-side check, 6 

### looking at the box, 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### -- making sure there's no leakage, 9 no damage, no integrity problem, or any 10 indications that it's a suspicious package. 11 A 

### Correct
. 12 Q 

### And you agree that there's another 13 kind of inspection that's required for 14 dangerous goods shipments that goes well 15 beyond the looking at the six sides of the 16 

### box, looking for suspicious markings or 17 labelings. It involves the acceptance process 18 

### for dangerous goods, making sure that 19 everything for this type of material has been 20 done by the carrier

-- I mean, by the shipper 21 In preparation for transport . 22 A 

### There is, and that's

- - that lS
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# • 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 960 wholly dependent on the material that's being offered for transportation. Q Right. So there have been times, I think, in your testimony where we've said "inspection," and in your testimony, you've been referencing for UN 3373 inspection at acceptance; is that right? A There's an inspection at acceptance, yes. Q And for UN 3373 shipments, your testimony has been that there's also an inspection at offload; correct? A That if the package 1S in compliance with 173.199, there's the additional offload inspection that's required that, my understanding, is not required of other hazardous material packages. This is an additional requirement if the shipment is shipped and transported under the exception in 173.199. Q You'll agree, in relation to the UN 3373 shipments in these cases, that no
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•

• 961 

### 1 dangerous goods were actually accepted from 2 the shippers? 3 A 

### It was ultimately determined that 4 

### the material inside was found not to meet the 5 

### definition of a 

### Category B biological 6 substance. 7 Q 

### Okay. So the acceptance of 8 something that doesn't meet the definition of 9 a Category B infectious substance doesn't 10 require any special handling under the CFR, 11 does it? 12 A 

### The CFRs do not cover a material 13 by definition, there's a hazardous

-- it 14 has to meet the definit ion of a hazardous 15 material, though there are provisions for 16 transporting items marked or labeled or 17 described as a hazardous material when it is 18 not. 19 Q 

### I don't want to put you on the 20 spot, but do you know that provision? 21 A 

### The one that I am familiar with 22 

### the majority of the time 1S 

### 173-

-- or excuse
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•

• 962

1 

### me -- 172.301, I believe, prohibited marking 2 lS 

### one that I've had experience with, as well 3 as I believe it's 172(k). If I could look at 4 the regulations, I can refresh myself. 5 Q 

### Let me have just a second, and 6 we'll see if we need to 7 A 

### Okay. 8 Q 

### -- get into that. 9 

### (Pause. ) 10 MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: May I 

### 11 approach, Your Honor? 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 13 BY MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: 14 Q 

### And for reference, I think we'll 15 be looking at 49 CFR 172.303. 16 A 

### 303. Okay. 17 Q 

### I think that's the one. 18 A 

### Yes, 172.303 is prohibited 19 marking. 20 Q 

### Okay. And can you read that for 21 the Court, please? 22 A 

### On (a):
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• 963
1 

### "No person may offer for trans2 

### portation or transport a package 3 

### which is marked with the proper 4 

### shipping name l 

### the identification 5 

### number of a hazardous material l 

### or 6 

### any other marking indicating that 7 

### the material is hazardous unless 8 

### the package contains the identi9 

### fied hazardous material or its 10 

### residue." 11 Q 

### Okay. 12 (Pause. ) 13 Are you familiar with the 14 provisions under which 

### FedEx l 

### Corporate Air 15 and Empire Air were cited in these cases? 16 A 

### My understanding l 

### it was the 17 general citations l 

### as well as -- general 18 citations under the general requirements I 

### as 19 well as 175.3. But rId have to take a look at 20 the
... 21 (Pause. ) 22 Q 

### So according to your testimony I 

### in
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# • 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 964 these cases, the violations you believe to have occurred on the UN 3373 shipments is that they were transported when they had an identification number of a hazardous material, but they didn't contain that hazardous material? A Part of the

-- I believe also there was the failure to inspect on that. There was - - at the time that the material was offered, at the time the material was accepted, and at the time that the material
was transported, there was all indications that the material was regulated based on the marking, based on the time that the material
was transported. And it wasn't until the subsequent investigation, after it was discovered by Agent Luscher, that they were able to, with hind- with 20/20 hindsight, go back and look at the material and see if it
was actually to determine if it was regulated as a Category B biological substance.
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• 965
1 Q 

### And the determination was that 2 there were no hazardous materials transported. 3 A 

### They finally determined, based on 4 subsequent conversation

-- my understanding, 5 subsequent conversations between Agent Luscher 6 and the shipper in question, that it did not 7 meet the definition of a Category B infectious 8 substance. But it was only after it had been 9 gotten to that point, and it was after it was 10 discovered that that determination was made. 11 Q 

### And that applies to, for clarifi12 cation of the record, the two UN 3373 13 shipments in the case involving FedEx and 14 Corporate Air, and the UN 3373 shipments in 15 the case involving FedEx and Empire? 16 

### MR. LOMAZOW: Objection, Your 17 Honor. Asked and answered. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 19 

### THE WITNESS: That was - - yes, 20 both cases, it was ultimately determined for 21 the two shipments, FedEx and Corporate, and 22 the one shipment between FedEx and Empire, was
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# • 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 966 ultimately determined that the material was not regulated. (Pause. ) MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Your Honor, if I may have just a moment? I'm almost done. (Pause. ) BY MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Q Okay. Agent Stiger, are you familiar with the field manual? A I'm sorry. Which field manual? Q The one for FAA agents. A Oh. Q There may be another name. A That's our national inspection and investigation manual. Yes. I helped - - I was on the committee that developed, wrote, and then recommended to our management to adopt in regards to the inspection procedures, techniques, on how to conduct inspections of shippers, air carriers. And then there's a subsequent investigation manual that was developed alongside by another committee of
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# • 22 967 agents and management that, when combined, is the National Inspection and Investigation Manual. They call it the NI2M. Q Now, 1S that the same as the 2150? A That 1S not the same as the 21- the 2150 is a order. The inspection manual is
a guidance document that is utilized by field agents in helping to conduct inspections and investigations. It basically lays out provides scenarios, provides guidance on what's to be looked at, how much 1S to be looked at, where do you look at it? It's a guidance document that, if a new agent came in, that they would be trained to do that. A lot of it contains inspection techniques and procedures. Q Are you familiar with both of those manuals? A I'm familiar in the regards I did not help write the investigations manual, but then I did go through the course to help teach the investigations manual. So I've gone
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### 1 through

-- more familiar with the inspection 2 manual, but at the same time, familiar with 3 the investigation manual, as it's the 4 

### provides a national guideline on how to 5 

### conduct investigations and prepare enforcement 6 

### cases. 7 Q 

### Are you familiar with the 8 

### provision in the field manual regarding 9 

### fairness? 10 A 

### I'd 11 MR. LOMAZOW: Objection, Your 12 Honor. What's the relevancy of this? 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 14 

### THE WITNESS: I have - - I - - you 15 know, in looking at the field manual, I'd have 16 to
-- I believe there's a provision ln there 17 that talks about, you know, you have to be 18 objective as possible. But I can't - - I don't 19 know if there's a specific section that 20 

### references fairness. I know there's the 21 objective nature that you must have in regards 22 to conducting the inspections and investigaNEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 969 

### 1 tions. In other words, it's gathering all the 2 facts. 3 Q 

### Okay. Let me -- I'm going to read 4 something to you and see if you recognize it 5 generally. 6 A 

### Okay. 7 Q 

### This is for the record, I'm 8 looking at 2150, the manual that was provided 9 in response to
-- 10 A 

### That would be the FAA order. 11 Q 

### Okay. 12 A 

### Yeah. 13 Q 

### I'm sorry. It was provided to 14 FedEx and Corporate Air in response to 15 interrogatories and discovery in this case. 16 

### On page 2-3, 

### provision (g) , 

### 17 fairness: 18 

### "To be effective, the Agency's 19 

### compliance and enforcement program 20 must be fair and reasonable, and 21 should be perceived as fair by 22 those subject to the regulation
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• 970
1 This does not and should not imply 2 an unwillingness to apply the full 3 force of statutory sanctions where 4 warranted. It does encompass the 5 right of an apparent violator to 6 be given objective, evenhanded 7 consideration of all circumstances 8 surrounding the allegations before 9 final action is taken. It also 10 requires good faith efforts to 11 understand the apparent violator's 12 position and take it into account, 13 as well as to apprise the apparent 14 violator of the Agency's position 15 in a timely manner." 16 Does that sound generally your 17 recollection of 2150, the order you've 18 referenced? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. Are you aware of any 21 provisions in 2150 regarding timeliness? 22 A There are I know there are
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• 971
1 provisions in there

-- I know the timeliness 2 that would apply

-- apply to us as agents in 3 regards to preparation of the enforcement 4 investigative report, and then the submission 5 to our management, and then the submission to 6 legal. I am not familiar with the timeliness 7 once it is received by our Legal Department. 8 I know there's timeliness issues on that, but 9 I'm not familiar with that, no. 10 Q Okay. Agent Stiger, I'd ask you 11 to look at an exhibit marked R4. It's no in 12 the manual - - I mean, it's not in the notebook 13 you have. It should be in the stack near you. 14 A Yes. 15 Q Are you familiar with the document 16 marked R4? 17 A Not until we went over this case. 18 I'd never seen this until I was brought in to 19 help with this hearing. So the first time I 20 did it was when we reviewed, I believe, the 21 material that was submit ted by you folks 22 during the discovery process . NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

# • 972

1 Q 

### So you were not aware that the 2 letter that's marked as Exhibit R4 was sent? 3 A 

### I had never seen this until I was 4 brought in to be the technical expert with 5 this case. 6 Q 

### Did you know a letter had been 7 sent by FedEx to the FAA regarding UN 

### 3373? 8 A 

### No, I had not. 9 Q 

### Okay. 10 

### (Pause. ) 11 Did you participate in any way in 12 the sanction recommendations that were given 13 in this case? 14 A 

### No, I did not. 15 

### (Long pause.) 16 

### MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: No further 17 questions, Your Honor. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Agent Stiger, just 19 so the Court is clear

-- 20 

### MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, if I can 21 ask a few follow-up questions? 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: No. Hold on.
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• 973

1 There were - - in your review of 2 the facts of the case, there were two 3 shipments in question here? 4 THE WITNESS: The shipment for the 5 FedEx/Corporate Air, my understanding was, if 6 I can go back there, would be

-- 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go to Complain8 ant's 7. 9 THE WITNESS: The shipment 10 there's a shipment identified by page 13 of 11 16

-- 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS:

-- with the 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: So that's the one 15 that's

-- 16 THE WITNESS: There's one 17 shipment. That's one. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 19 THE WITNESS: And then the second 20 shipment that was also discovered on that

-- 21 because that has a tracking number 8647 4191 22 6094. And then if you go to
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• 974
1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: The other one is 2 6503. 3 

### THE WITNESS: 6503 lS 

### the last 4 four on the tracking number. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: So those are the 6 two shipments that FedEx apparently handled; 7 right? 8 

### THE WITNESS: Correct. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Forget the 10 specifics of packaging and all that. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Is

- - in 13 Complainant's

-- same exhibit, page 1 of 16, 14 is that the other case, or is that just a 15 different shipment? 16 THE WITNESS: It's a different 17 shipment. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: But did FedEx 19 handle 1 of 16? 20 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So how 22 many -- now, FedEx handled all three of the
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• 975 

### 1 shipments we've just talked about, 1 of 16, 13 2 of 16, and 16 of 16? 3 

### THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. And did 5 Corporate Air handle the same shipments? 6 

### THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. All right. 8 Counsel. 9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. LOMAZOW: 11 Q 

### Agent Stiger, at the time of 12 acceptance of a package marked to indicate 13 that it contains a hazardous material, does an 14 air carrier know at that time

- - actually, let 15 me rephrase. At the time of acceptance of a 16 package marked to indicate it contains a 17 hazardous material, does an air carrier know 18 at that time whether it does or does not? 19 A 

### The indication would be, if it is 20 marked on there

-- there's an indication 21 if

-- if it's fully marked in accordance with 22 the regulations, then there's an indication
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# • 22 976 that it is a hazardous material, as well as if there's partial markings or labelings. At that point, there's an indication that it may contain a hazardous material. Q So when an air carrier receives a package that's marked with a hazmat, like let's say identification number, UN 3373, does the air carrier have to assume at that point that it contains a hazardous material? A At that point, there's strong indicators that the material may contain a hazardous material, especially something unique as a UN 3373 marking on there. That raises suspicion that it may contain a hazardous material, yes. Q And in your opinion, if a hazmat package 1S improperly marked, 1S that also an indication that there might be something wrong with the contents of the package? MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Your Honor I I would object as it calls for speculation. I think the question is, if it's improperly
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• 977 

### 1 marked on the outside, what do you think the 2 inside has wrong with it? 3 

### MR. LOMAZOW: That's asking based 4 on his opinion, based on his experience. He's 5 

### an expert. What does an improper marking 6 indicate? Could it indicate the presence -- 7 or could it indicate a problem with the 8 package itself? 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I think 10 

### we've been over this now extensively. 11 Rephrase the question and re-ask it. But we 12 plowed this ground quite a bit the last two 13 days. 14 

### MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. I understand, 15 

### Judge. I'll just withdraw it, then. 16 Actually, no further questions for 17 Agent Stiger. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Agent 19 

### Stiger, you can step down. I'm going to 20 instruct you that your instruction from 21 yesterday continues. You're still under oath. 22 You're not to discuss your testimony with
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• 978 

### 1 anybody prior to the conclusion of all the 2 hearings. 3 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, slr. 4 (The witness was excused.) 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Any additional 6 witnesses from either side in this case?

- - or 7 in these cases? These are the 8 

### MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: I don't think 9 we have any additional witnesses, Your Honor. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: You want to take 11 just a couple minutes to confer? 12 MR. LOMAZOW: Can we take a couple 13 minutes to confer? 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Let's 15 reconvene at 25 minutes of. Let's go off the 16 record for the moment. 17 

### (Whereupon, at 9:32 a.m. off the 18 record until 9:44 a.m. ) 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 20 record. 21 Okay. Where are we, counsel? 22 MR
. LOMAZOW : Judge, just to
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• 979 

### 1 and I know I've talked to Mike about this, and 2 I've talked to Cynthia, so I certainly don't 3 want to confuse the record. In terms of Agent 4 Stiger's testimony, obviously, they just 5 discussed

-- counsel, myself and Agent Stiger 6 have discussed UN 3373 ad nauseam. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 8 

### MR. LOMAZOW: So the thought 9 process that I had, and I discussed with 10 Cynthia, lS 

### that we should count Agent 11 Stiger's testimony regarding UN 3373 for both 12 

### cases, since it's going to basically be the 13 same issue. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't have a 15 problem with that. 16 

### MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll be honest. 18 My philosophy on these is, if counsel agree on 19 something, unless it's an egregious violation 20 of the rules, I'll go with it, because it's 21 

### not my case, it's your case. I make the 22 decision, but ultimately it's your case.
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• 980

1 

### SO 1S 

### there any further evidence 2 or testimony in the two cases of Federal 3 

### Express Corporation, DMS-2010-0977, and 4 Corporate Air, DMS-2010-0975, which were 5 consolidated for purposes of trial? 6 

### MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Nothing 7 further, Your Honor. 8 

### MR. LOMAZOW: Nothing further. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What I'm 10 going to ask you to do I'll do this 11 

### closing, and then we'll go off the record and 12 we can start the other case. What I'm going 13 to ask you to do is

- - Mike, what's your 14 turnaround on the transcript? 15 THE REPORTER: Your Honor, I'm not 16 really sure what Neal Gross's turnaround time 17 is. I'm supposed to have the transcripts done 18 in two weeks from the end of the trial. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: What' 11 happen, 20 the transcript is prepared, sent to the FAA 21 Headquarters on the other side of the world as 22 far as you're concerned, counsel. It'll
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.w. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### 1 eventually trickle back here. What I'm gOlng 2 to ask FAA counsel to do is, when you get the 3 transcript, call Ms. Snell. The two of you 4 work out a briefing schedule. I'm going to be 5 busy quite a bit this fall. So don't feel a 6 compulsion to get it to me, you know, the end 7 

### of September, the middle of October. You work 8 out a schedule that'll work for you. 9 What I normally do is have the FAA 10 brief two weeks after receipt of the 11 transcript, two weeks to the Respondent, and 12 then a week for rebuttal. You work out your 13 own schedule. You want to do it four weeks, 14 four weeks, two weeks, you want to have the 15 first brief done the 1st of November, whatever 16 works for you two. 17 

### Then, obviously, what I want you 18 to brief is whether I have to accept the 19 regulation on their face, or whether I have 20 the right to interpret the regulation. And if 21 so, what can I take into consideration? 22 My instinct lS that, to some
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### 1 extent, this is a case of first impression. 2 So I think we should take our time, brief it 3 properly. Whatever decision

-- I'm gOlng to 4 encourage you to brief it with the idea that 5 it might go to the Circuit Court. Okay? I'm 6 not going to limit you on the brief, but I 7 want the brief well done. Remember, our cases 8 get reviewed by either the DC Circuit or the 9 Federal Circuit. 10 Justice Ginsburg likes to take our 11 cases. I've read a few of his. The guy's a 12 fountain of knowledge. I think that's Justice 13 

### Ginsburg's husband. I could be wrong. 14 Somebody told me that. I've never taken the 15 time to check it out. 16 But Judge Ginsburg on the Circuit 17 Court takes a lot of DOT stuff. That's why I 18 want you to take your time on the briefing 19 schedule. If one of you runs into a conflict, 20 consult with each other. If you two mutually 21 agree to modify the schedule, send me an 22 order
. I'll sign it.
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1 

### Anything else ln these two cases? 2 

### MR. LOMAZOW: No, Your Honor. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you sure you 4 don't have another question, Ms. Snell? 5 

### MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: I can think 6 of a few? 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sure you can. 8 

### MS. CHANDLER

- SNELL: Are we on the 9 record? 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. 11 

### MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: I guess I 12 would renew my motion to dismiss, which Your 13 Honor has already indicated that you'll 14 consider. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, I'll take 16 that under consideration. 17 

### MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Thank you. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And I think for 19 the purposes of the record, what you may want 20 to do, if

-- you two think about this. Do you 21 want Respondent to file the motion, have the 22 

### FAA respond, and address that as a preliminary
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### 1 issue before you brief I 

### or do you just want to 2 wrap it all into the brief? Your call. You 3 two talk. Do it however you want to. 4 

### Anything else in these two cases? 5 

### MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Nothing from 6 uS I 

### Your Honor. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What I I 

### m 8 going to do is 11m 

### going to go off the record l 

### 9 and 11m 

### going to take the exhibits from this 10 easel 

### and we/re 

### going to move them over here 11 and get them out of the way so we can start 12 

### afresh

-- those exhibits that we/re 

### not gOlng 13 to use again. 14 

### MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Okay. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay? 16 

### MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Yes I 

### Your 17 Honor. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: So we/re 

### gOlng to 19 go off the record for a few minutes. When we 20 come back on the recordl 

### it/ll be a new case. 21 

### (Whereupon l 

### the above-entitled 22 matter adjourned at 9:50 a.m.)
NEAL R. GROSS
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• 991 C E R T I F I CAT E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Federal Express

Before: US DOT

Date: 08-25-11

Place: Seattle, Washington

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

(202) 234-4433 Court Reporter

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.w. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com