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### 052017 IN THE MATTER OF: 

### HEARING DOCKET PACIFIC INTERNATIONAL SKYDIVING, INC., FDMS No. FAA-2014-1116 Respondent Volume III Thursday, December 15, 2016 District of Hawaii 

## u.s. District Court 300 Ala Moana Boulevard Honolulu, Hawaii 96580 The hearing convened, pursuant to notice, at 9:00 a.m. BEFORE: THE HONORABLE DOUGLAS M. RAWALD, U.S. Administrative Law Judge

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Complainant: DON BOBERTZ, ESQ. of: Federal Aviation Administration Office of the Regional Counsel, AWP-7 Western-Pacific Region P.O. Box 92007 Los Angeles, California 90009-2007 310-725-3454 310-725-6816 (Fax)

On Behalf of the Respondent: ROBERT L. FELDMAN, ESQ. of: Law Offices of Robert Feldman 8900 SW 107th Avenue, Suite 203 Miami, Florida 33176 305-598-4841

(202) 234-4433 305-598-4842 (Fax)

NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433WITNESS Tom Sanders Paul McCowan

(202}234-4433 3-3 CONTENTS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 5 70 142

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 117 138 135

(202} 234-44333-4

1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 8:59 a.m. 3 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. It's December 4 15th, 2016. We're back on the record in the case 5 Pacific International Skydiving Center. When we 6 last left, Mr. Sanders was on the stand. 7 Mr. Sanders, if you could, please, go 8 back to the stand. I want to remind you, sir, 9 that you are still under oath. 10 Also, I note before we start with Mr. 11 Sanders' testimony, that before we started this 12 morning, I did ask the parties to go ahead and 13 make sure that any witnesses they intend to call 14 would be at the courthouse this morning so we can 15 go ahead and proceed directly when Mr. Sanders is 16 done, with the next witness. 17 So, Mr. Feldman, if you would continue 18 your direct, please. 19 MR. FELDMAN: I'm sorry, did you ask 20 a question, Your Honor? 21 JUDGE RAWALD: I asked you to go 22 ahead.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-5

1 

### MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION 3 

### BY MR. FELDMAN: 4 Q 

### Mr. Sanders, we were discussing the 5 videos yesterday shot by TK Hinshaw from the 6 

### ground. But before I cover the second two 7 videos, with respect to the clarity

-- and you've 8 watched all the videos in this courtroom, 9 correct? 10 A 

### Yes, I have. 11 Q 

### With respect to the clarity of the 12 videos appearing cloudy rather than sharp, is 13 light reflection a factor in that? 14 A 

### Yes, definitely. There's many factors 15 that can affect the sharpness. 16 Q 

### And can you explain why? 17 A 

### Well, you get if you're shooting 18 without a sunshade, for instance, just the light 19 that goes across the front of the lens will 20 affect it. 21 In the videos that we're viewing, most 22 of what I think is affecting it is anything from

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### 1 the salt in the air from the nearby beach, 2 because the wind actually blows in towards where 3 the filming was done, and all of the atmosphere 4 that they're shooting through is, you know, a 5 mile to three miles away. 6 Q 

### And is there an effect of moisture in 7 the air

- not clouds, but moisture in the air on 8 the GoPro videos, in your opinion? 9 A 

### The moisture will affect it will 10 

### disburse the light, for one. If you just have 11 moisture in the air, it's going to cut the light 12 a little bit. 13 Q 

### And does that make it appear cloudier 14 than it actually is to the naked eye? 15 A 

### Like, if they pass by a cloud and the 16 

### lighting is has dropped down, it will 17 

### definitely affect the contrast. The f-stop is 18 going to open up, because it's now darker, just 19 like our eyes do. 20 

### And when that happens, the contrast, 21 the detail is going to be lost and it might even 22 be focused more on the element of the GoPro

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-7 

### 1 rather than out away from the GoPro. 2 Q 

### And in your opinion, did that affect 3 the quality of the video shot in the air with 4 

### respect

- withdraw that. 5 

### Did that affect

- in your opinion, did 6 

### that affect the accuracy of the GoPro videos 7 

### taken in the air with respect to whether or not 8 

### they were - the jumper ever entered a cloud? 9 A 

### Yes. Towards the end

- towards the 10 end of the jump, I believe it affected what the 11 viewer would see, for sure. 12 Q 

### And that's because of the contrast? 13 A 

### As it

- the one instance I'm thinking 14 about in my mind, I know that the light drops as 15 

### they fall behind a cloud. And since the light 16 drops, all the detail is already immediately 17 dropped. 18 And the contrast that that one chip

- 19 

### it's a microchip camera. It's famous for being 20 

### small. It doesn't have three chips, it doesn't 21 have big chips, it doesn't have a lot of 22 complicated electric circuitry.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-8

1 

### So, it's a very simple camera. And 2 once it goes into the low light, it loses a lot 3 of its information. 4 Q 

### Okay. I'm going to show you one of 5 them for an example

- well, without showing it to 6 you, in some of the videos in the air, the 7 cameraman looked up at the tandem pair opening 8 above them and they were sharp and there was no 9 evidence of lack of clarify. 10 

### In your expert opinion, is there an 11 

### explanation for this? 12 A 

### Well, they were opening

-- the videos 13 that I'm thinking of here, they were opening 14 above and to the side of the cloud. So, they're 15 

### in bright light. So, that's exactly where a 16 GoPro does well. 17 

### In real, nice, bright light, the f18 stop is closed down because there's lots of 19 

### light. That increases the focus and the 20 contrast, which increases the sharpness. 21 Q 

### And if that camera is out of focus, 22 would that make the lens shot appear cloudy?

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### 1 A 

### It could. 2 Q 

### And in your opinion, did that occur in 3 these aerial videos shot with the GoPros? 4 A I 

### think there's moisture that's 5 actually on or in the camera or right in front of 6 it affecting it the most. 7 Q 

### Let's talk about that. 8 

### Do lenses fog up in free fall? 9 A 

### Frequently in places like Hawaii, 10 

### Florida, Thailand, Guam, tropical places. It's 11 so common that a free fall cameraperson will 12 carry a rag in their pocket. 13 

### When we open up under canopy, our 14 ringsight will be fogged up. That will tell us 15 that our cameras fogged up. Our eyes didn't fog 16 up, but our ringsight will. And that's included 17

- we have to clean our camera lens off, because 18 otherwise everything else we shoot is going to be 19 useless. 20 So, you get down and you land first. 21 And when the tandem comes down, you want to have 22 

### your lens clean. So, it's a super common

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1 practice to have a lens to clean it up. That's 2 how common it happens. 3 JUDGE RAWALD: Sir, could you - 4 BY MR. FELDMAN: 5 Q Is there a way to prevent 6 JUDGE RAWALD: Sorry, Mr. Feldman. 7 Could you define what a ringsight is? 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. It's actually an 9 old military gun sighting technology that is 10 still used today. So, basically, we can't see 11 through the cameras, but we have a targeting 12 device. 13 And it is a glass element, so it gets 14 real cold in free fall. Reacts just like the 15 lens. 16 So, that's the clue to the free fall 17 camera in that their cameras fog, is that the 18 ringsight will fog. Some cameramen don't use a 19 ringsight, but it's for framing. 20 21 camera? 22

(202) 234-4433 JUDGE RAWALD: So, it's on your

THE WITNESS: It's on the helmetNEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-11

1 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: extending down in 3 front of your eye for a targeting device. 4 JUDGE RAWALD: Understood. Thank you. 5 Mr. Feldman. 6 BY MR. FELDMAN: 7 Q Where are the GoPro cameras typically 8 located on a parachute jump? 9 A On the top of the helmet. 10 Q And which way do they face? 11 A Forward. 12 Q And is it ever possible to look 13 straight down with a GoPro camera mounted on top 14 of the helmet? 15 A Well, it doesn't really matter who you 16 are, you can't get your chin past
- your chin 17 bone here. So, when I want to see my feet and 18 they're under canopy, I bring my feet up. I 19 can't bring my head down anywhere. So, it's very 20 hard to get beyond about a 45-degree angle when 21 you're under canopy. 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 So, in viewing the videos in this case

NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-12 

### 1 that were shot in the air, did you see any video 2 taken by the cameraman where he was looking 3 straight down prior to his actual opening of his 4 own parachute canopy? 5 A No. 6 Q 

### And not looking straight down, does 7 

### that affect do you have an opinion as to 8 whether or not if it appeared that clouds were 9 around the cameraman, whether or not he was in a 10 cloud? 11 A 

### I think it would affect it. We have 12 

### to see straight down. We do get a look at 13 

### straight up as the tandem is opening and we see 14 the clearness and the fact that a cloud is off to 15 the side, but it's harder for the cameraman to 16 see straight down. 17 Q 

### And he could not do that if he were 18 face to earth or back to earth, correct? 19 A 

### Back to earth, no way. Face to earth, 20 it's difficult, but you can- you could probably 21 

### get back there, but during deployment, you don't 22 want your camera pointed downward like that.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-13

1 In fact, if anything, you kind of put 2 your shoulders around your neck and hold it. And 3 during the deployment, you don't want to have a 4 hard opening. So, if you're looking down, more 5 chance that you're going to have your head whip 6 back and injure yourself. So, that's not what we 7 do at opening. We don't look down. 8 Q Now, you're a pilot, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And in the training to be a pilot, you 11 studied weather, correct? 12 A That's true. 13 Q Okay. Can you explain why clouds 14 form? 15 A Well, it's on the temperature of the 16 air and the dew point, the moisture condenses 17 from a gas to a visible form into water. So, 18 it's a temperature change with the moist air. 19 Q So, would you expect the lens to fog 20 up at the same altitude as clouds form? 21 A 22

(202) 234-4433 Yes. MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, Your Honor.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-14 

### 1 This witness hasn't been - I understand a pilot 2 has some weather experience, but it sounds like 3 he's going into more of a weather expertise area 4 of questioning. 5 

### JUDGE RAWALD: No, I agree. I'm going 6 to give this testimony here just lay witness 7 value and not any sort of expertise to it, 8 counsel. So, the objection is sustained. 9 

### BY MR. FELDMAN: 10 Q 

### Okay. In your experience as a free 11 

### fall cameraperson, did your lens fog up at the 12 same level at which clouds were present? 13 

### A At the same level, but it doesn't mean 14 

### you have to go through a cloud. It's the 15 

### temperature that if the lens gets really, 16 really cold and you get to warm air even if 17 there's not- you're not falling through a cloud, 18 you will get foggy. 19 When we get foggy on our wing-mounted 20 cameras when we're flying around in our aircraft 21

-- we have an outside camera and the lens gets 22 really cold, if we go up to five or 6,000 feet,

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### 3-15 1 it gets cold and we drop down without going 2 through any cloud, just the temperature change 3 

### will put moisture on the lens, but it's 4 

### temperature change. 5 Q 

### And to an uninformed viewer, would 6 

### that appear when they looked at the video, to be 7 

### a cloud rather than condensation? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### Is there any weather reporting at 10 Dillingham Airport, where you stated you fly six 11 or seven day a week, I believe, is there any 12 weather reporting of winds aloft as opposed to 13 ground winds, at the airport? 14 A 

### There's no winds aloft report at 15 Dillingham, just ground winds. 16 Q 

### And in your experience as a skydiver 17 with thousands of jumps and your experience in 18 camera work, do you drift horizontally in free 19 fall? 20 A 

### Almost every day. It's very - very 21 rare that there's no upper wind. 22 wind, you're drifting.

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### So, if there's

(202) 234-4433

### 3-16

1 Q 

### And would you be drifting at the speed 2 of the wind horizontally while you're falling 3 vertically? 4 A 

### Yeah. I kind of look at it like if 5 you're standing next to a stream that's flowing 6 and you move into the stream, you just

- you're 7 in that current. 8 

### So, whatever layer you're at, it's a 9 current of air. And when you're in it, everybody 10 moves in that current. 11 Q 

### And at the same time, you're falling 12 vertically, but you're drifting horizontally, 13 correct? 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q 

### Is there any way to predict on any 16 given jump, how far you would travel 17 horizontally? 18 A 

### Not with precision. There's a lot of 19 things that we do to - and we know here in Hawaii 20 that it's going to be from the east most days, 21 but we we get wind aloft forecasts and 22 sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong.

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1 After a load has gone up, they can 2 tell the other jumpers, you know, go out further, 3 that kind of thing. So, it gets refined 4 throughout the day, but it's not precise. 5 JUDGE RAWALD: I'm sorry, sir. Maybe 6 I misheard. You just said you get wind aloft 7 forecasts. Previously you said there is no wind 8 aloft forecast. 9 THE WITNESS: You can get

- not at 10 the airport. 11 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: But even on your iPhone, 13 you can get winds aloft. 14 JUDGE RAWALD: So, you're able to get 15 winds aloft, but it's not an official one for the 16 airport, sir? 17 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 18 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 19 THE WITNESS: And it's just a 20 forecast. It's not a measured wind. They don't 21 send up balloons anymore. 22

(202) 234-4433 JUDGE RAWALD: I understand.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 Thank

(202) 234-4433

### 3-18 1 you for clarifying that for me. 2 BY MR. FELDMAN: 3 Q 

### So, do you ever get actual winds aloft 4 prior to a jump, rather than a forecast? 5 A No. 6 Q 

### And do those winds aloft change with 7 different altitudes? 8 A Yes. 9 Q 

### In what way? 10 A Generally, it's going to be clockwise. 11 I mean, it's going to change between a thousand 12 and 3,000, and 3,000 and 5,000. All the way up 13 it changes and it usually clocks around, but it's 14 different levels and it's completely different 15 speeds. So, it's not even consistent velocity. 16 You could be 10 miles an hour at a 17 thousand feet, and you can be 26 at 3,000 feet. 18 Q 

### And do they change with

- do the winds 19 aloft change without warning? 20 A 

### Yes. 21 Q 

### So, if you jumped out of the airplane 22 and the winds aloft had changed from the prior

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 3-19 1 jump, you would have no way of knowing prior to 2 actually being in free fall in the wind, correct? 3 A 

### That's correct. 4 Q 

### Now, how strong are the typical winds 5 over Dillingham from 14,000 feet to 4,000 feet? 6 A 

### I think it's usually in the 15 to 25 7 is consistent, but we get them higher than that, 8 and rarely lower. 9 Q 

### And higher than that would be what? 10 A 

### 30-40 miles an hour. 11 Q 

### And so, if you jumped out of the 12 airplane and you were in free fall for 30 13 seconds, you would be exposed to something 14 pushing you at 25 miles an hour, and possibly 15 even 30 to 40 miles an hour, horizontally while 16 you fell vertically? 17 Is that a fair statement? 18 A 

### Yes. You're drifting. 19 Q 

### In fact, on jumps you make, what is 20 tracking? 21 A 

### Tracking is a forward movement that 22 you can gain by doing what you showed the other

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### 1 day where you bring your arms to your side and 2 straighten your legs so it creates all the lift 3 in the back of your body. And you're basically 4 just body surfing air so you'll actually be 5 

### propelled forward. 6 Q 

### Are there occasions when you jump 7 

### where you have drifted and you realize it and 8 have to track to get back to where you want to 9 open your parachute? 10 A 

### Yes. That's common. 11 Q 

### That's common? 12 A 

### Uh-huh. 13 Q 

### Can the tandem pair track? 14 A No. 15 Q 

### so, they are basically at the mercy of 16 the wind; is that correct? 17 A 

### Until their parachute opens, they are 18 pretty much at the mercy of the wind. When the 19 parachute opens, they have a little bit more 20 control. 21 Q 

### Okay. Let' s go back to the videos 22 where we left off. I'm going to start with A14

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### 3-21

1 

### and we'll go 3:30 into this video. Three 2 minutes, 30 seconds. 3 

### Now, looking at this video at three 4 minutes, 30 seconds, do you see a single layer of 5 clouds, or multiple layers of clouds? 6 A 

### Multiple. 7 Q 

### Multiple. And let's go to 4:17. 8 At 4:17, do you also see single layer, 9 or do you see multiple layers of clouds? 10 A 

### To me, I see multiple, but it's also 11 limiting looking at it on a one-dimensional 12 thing. I'm not at the airport looking with two 13 eyes, but it's going all the way up, you know, in 14 the sky at different levels, from what I pick up 15 from this monitor. 16 Q 

### Let's go to 5:28. And I'll go to 5:27 17 and I'll start playing it. We don't have audio. 18 

### Let's see why we don't have audio. Let's try 19 this. 20 (Playing video.) 21 Q 

### Okay. Are there multiple layers of 22 clouds there?

(202)234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-22

1 A Yes. 2 Q Let's go to 5:30 and 15 frames. 3 Do you see a canopy there? 4 A I do. 5 Q Now, another canopy will appear below 6 it. I want you to watch the visibility of it. 7 And as we go forward, do you see where 8 it is? 9 A I do. 10 Q Do you still see it there? 11 A Yes. 12 Q That's at 5:31. 13 Do you still see it at 5:30? 14 A No, I just lost you. 15 Q Okay. Now, is there a reason other

- 16 in your opinion, other than that jumper is coming 17 out of the cloud, that he suddenly appears in 18 this shot at 5:30 and 24 frames? 19 A I think there's quite a few reasons. 20 Q And would you explain what they are? 21 A Well, first of all, it might have been 22 a free falling body that's too small to see. A

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-44333-23 1 parachute is enormous compared to the free 2 falling body. 3 It's also possible there is a cloud 4 there between the camera, maybe multiple, but at 5 least one cloud layer blocking in between where 6 the camera is, which is a long ways away. 7 There's also the moisture that's going to be

- 8 come back in. 9 What we're looking at, again, you have 10 to always remind yourself is that background that 11 we see in there is not what they're falling 12 through. That's the background from TK's view 13 aimed out there at the sky. That's not what's 14 above them. 15 So, I have no way of knowing

- it's 16 going to be the same on all of those. It's - I 17 think it's

- unless you are directly underneath 18 it, there's no chance of knowing. 19 Q So, in your opinion, none of these 20 videos are useful in determining

- are none of 21 these videos useful in determining whether or not 22 any jumper jumped into or through a cloud?

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1 A 

### They don' tell me a thing. 2 What appears to happen on camera may 3 not be happening at all. And it - I don't even 4 

### see a free falling body for the free falling 5 

### part. 6 I 

### see the canopy. When the canopy is 7 

### open, they just steer around the clouds. Now, 8 

### they have control. They can go wherever they 9 

### want to go. 10 So, if you see them go behind a cloud, 11 

### they didn't do that. They're steering. At that 12 point, they can fly wherever they want. So, I 13 have no belief from this angle, that any of this 14 proves going through clouds. 15 Q 

### So, is it more likely or not, in your 16 opinion, that they did not go through a cloud? 17 A 

### Yes, it's more likely that they did 18 not. 19 Q 

### And would that also apply to the one 20 at 5:38 and 11 frames, if we play it forward from 21 there, would it also apply to the second tandem 22 there that was visible at
- not visible at 5:38

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### 1 and seven frames, but is visible, clearly, at 2 5:39 and 27 frames? 3 A 

### All of the things I said would apply. 4 Plus, it was out of focus and it became visible 5 as he zoomed in, made the images bigger, too. 6 So, they could have been so small that his wide 7 angle that there's just what looked like a drop 8 of dirt on there, but focus and zooming in, 9 making the images bigger, is why they appeared. 10 Q 

### So, at 5:38 and 23 frames, is the 11 camera in focus, or out of focus? 12 A 

### Out of focus. It's difficult to tell 13 until you start seeing the jumpers in the 14 canopies, and they're out of focus too. 15 Q 

### And at 5:39 and 29 frames, which is a 16 little over one second later, is the camera in 17 focus, or out of focus? 18 A 

### Out of focus, or there's so much 19 moisture it can't get sharp. 20 Q 

### And at 5:41 exactly, do you see single 21 or multiple layers of clouds in that shot? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### Multiple.

NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 3-26 1 Q 

### Now, at 12:30 and 28 frames into the 2 video, do you see single or multiple levels of 3 clouds? 4 A 

### Multiple. 5 Q 

### I'll play this from here. 6 

### (Video playing.) 7 Q 

### Now, what he said about the winds, I 8 believe it was 1-7-0 at 1-5 gusting to 2-5, 9 correct? 10 A 

### I didn't remember the

- 11 Q 

### Okay. 12 A 

### heading, but I did hear the 13 velocity. 14 Q 

### I'll play it again. 15 (Video playing.) 16 Q 

### Now, we don't know if that's ground 17 wind or winds aloft. But since Mr. Hinshaw was 18 shooting from the ground if we - if we presume 19 that that was ground wind, would the winds aloft 20 be stronger or weaker? 21 A 

### 22

(202) 234-4433 

### Normally stronger. (Video playing.)

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 3-27

1 Q 

### I'm going to go forward. This is at 2 

### 12:30 that we began at. Now, we go forward to 3 14:02

- I'll start at 14:00. 4 (Video playing.) 5 Q 

### Now, he looked at his watch there and 6 then at 14:12 and 19 frames there's a shot of the 7 sky. 8 

### In your opinion, was there an edit 9 made at that point? 10 A 

### Yes. 11 Q 

### And why do you say that? 12 A 

### Well, it went from the shot in his 13 hand to the sky and it seems to be a completely 14 different scene. 15 JUDGE RAWALD: 

### Mr. Feldman, I would 16 note that the witness did address this on direct 17 and he said that he stopped the camera at this 18 point and restarted it. 19 I mean, you are free to probe into 2

### o this, but we already have testimony regarding 21 this exact incident, on the record. 22

(202) 234-4433 MR. FELDMAN: 

### Well, normally, Your

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-28 

### 1 Honor, when the witness stopped the camera, we 2 saw a shot of a watch after he stopped the 3 camera. 4 

### JUDGE RAWALD: That goes to cross 5 examination of Mr. Hinshaw about why it was 6 different as far as what he did here, but he 7 already said that he stopped the camera and 8 restarted it here. 9 I will listen to the testimony of this 10 witness on the issue, but we have testimony where 11 the witness who did said that he did something. 12 And so, this is kind of impeachment testimony 13 

### without actual basis because the witness 14 testified what he did. 15 

### MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 16 

### (Video playing.) 17 

### BY MR. FELDMAN: 18 Q 

### Let's just determine the point at 19 which that scene changes. 20 (Video playing.) 21 Q 

### It's approximately 14 minutes, 10 22 second and 21 frames into the shot.

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### 1 Can we determine from this video, how 2 long the camera was off? 3 A 

### No. 4 Q 

### If we had the camera metadata, would 5 we be able to determine that? 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### Why? 8 A 

### Because it would record the time that 9 the recording stopped. That would be the last 10 frame that's captured. And then it would start 11 with a new one and it would capture that time as 12 well. It would be there. 13 Q 

### Now, this camera, does it

- when you 14 

### stop it, does it the camera stores its 15 information in files; is that correct? 16 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, Your Honor. 17 

### BY MR. FELDMAN: 18 Q 

### How does

- 19 

### MR. BOBERTZ: The witness is getting 20 into more of an expertise on - especially on this 21 particular camera again. 22

(202) 234-4433 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Right. And once again,

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-30 

### 1 Mr. Sanders has testified that he never actually 2 used this camera. He's basing it upon his 3 knowledge of cameras generally, which we're 4 

### allowing because he is a videographer. But the 5 storage of the media on a camera which he's never 6 used before, I'm not going to allow testimony 7 regarding that, counsel. 8 So, we did hear from the witness who 9 owns the camera, that there are individual files 10 

### created by starting and stopping. And then we 11 uploaded them, he uploaded the individual files, 12 which, of course, is going to be used as far as 13 the basis for an assertion that, hey, this isn't 14 the best evidence, when I discuss the credibility 15 of the evidence. 16 

### But I think Mr. Sanders is not the 17 appropriate witness to give any more evidence 18 than we already have from Mr. Hinshaw, sir. 19 MR. FELDMAN: 

### I'll move on. 20 JUDGE RAWALD: 

### The objection is 21 sustained. 22 (Video playing.)

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-31

1 BY MR. FELDMAN: 2 Q Is there an issue that you see as to 3 accuracy of times in these videos, because of 4 watches being used to display the actual time the 5 video was taken? 6 A I can't

- 7 MR. BOBERTZ: Calls for speculation. 8 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. And I think 9 his answer was going to say he can't tell. So 10 and it's related to argument, so the objection is 11 sustained. 12 (Video playing.) 13 BY MR. FELDMAN: 14 Q He said he pointed his- he's pointing 15 his camera straight up. 16 In your opinion, is the camera pointed 17 straight up? 18 A No. 19 Q And why do you have that opinion? 20 A We don't exit straight up, for 21 starters, when the winds are blowing 15 to 2 5 22 miles an hour.

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1 And for me, it doesn't appear that

- 2 the angle, to me, looks like it's out towards the 3 exit point. 4 JUDGE RAWALD: Sir, if you could 5 explain, what about the image makes you think 6 that the angle of the camera is not straight up 7 from the person filming it? 8 THE WITNESS: It's just the perception 9 that I'm getting looking at it. Maybe it's 10 because of 38 years of camera experience that

- 11 JUDGE RAWALD: That's fine. 12 THE WITNESS:

-- I can tell something, 13 but I can't describe it, but it's just my 14 observation besides the fact

- 15 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 16 THE WITNESS: we don't jump 17 straight up and it appears, to me, to be at an 18 angle. 19 JUDGE RAWALD: so, because he's 20 capturing jumpers and you assume that they cannot 21 be directly above him, therefore, that's part of 22 your assessment here?

(202)234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-33 

### 1 THE WITNESS: That's part of it. 2 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you. 3 

### BY MR. FELDMAN: 4 Q 

### And are you looking at the bottoms of 5 the clouds in the lower part of this screen, or 6 the sides of the clouds? 7 A 

### It's a pretty low contrast image. 8 It's hard to get any detail out of what's been 9 

### shot and dubbed over and onto this. I'm just 10 seeing broken clouds that are compacted in with 11 the lens. 12 (Playing video.) 13 Q 

### 14 15 Q 16 

### see blue 17 A 18 Q 19 

### clouds in 20 

### A 21 Q 

### 22 blue sky?

(202) 234-4433 

### That was 14:57 into the video. (Playing video.) Now, in this image at 15:14, do you sky in this image? Yes. And do you see multiple layers of this image?

Yes. And where in this image, do you see

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### 1 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. The video 2 speaks for itself. I don't think we need to hear 3 his continuous testimony about this video that 4 it's obvious from viewing it, where you see blue 5 sky. 6 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Well, I'm going to 7 allow the question to be answered, because part 8 of the issue here is the quality of the video 9 makes it hard to, actually, for a lay observer, 10 to tell what's blue and not. 11 And so, you're asking the expert here 12 to see if based upon his expertise, he can tell 13 what this amateur camera would have portrayed as 14 a blue sky. 15 

### So, I'm going to allow the question. 16 Objection overruled. 17 

### MR. FELDMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 18 

### THE WITNESS: There's a preponderance 19 of blue in the bottom left hand, but there's blue 20 scattered throughout the

- all the way to the top 21 of the frame, and even towards

-- partly to the 22 top right of the frame.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-44333-35 1 So, there's blue throughout it. But, 2 again, what we're looking at is not even really3 when we see blue there, that's not the 4 particularly where they're falling if we're 5 shooting at an angle. They could be straight 6 above in a much bigger blue hole. 7 (Playing video.) 8 BY MR. FELDMAN: 9 Q Now, in this shot at 15:49 and 06, 10 there appears to be a bright light at the upper 11 right-hand corner of the frame. 12 Do you know what that bright light is? 13 A It should be the sun. 14 Q And if you see the sun, does that 15 indicate that there's blue sky where the sun is? 16 A It would be much clearer over there, 17 yes. 18 (Playing video.) 19 Q 20 21 Q 22 A

(202) 234-4433 Says, "There's one. There's two." (Playing video.) Do you see any jumpers in that frame? No.

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 **~** :i: 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

3-36 JUDGE RAWALD: And that's at 16:24. (Playing video.) BY MR. FELDMAN: Q Do you see any parachutes in this video at 16:59 and nine - 16:55 and nine frames? A No. (Playing video.) Q And now we see a parachute

- do we see a parachute in this frame - A Yeah, I saw - Q

-- at 17:19 and three frames? A Yes. I saw it a little bit earlier when he had it higher in the frame as well. Q When he had, what? A I saw it a little bit earlier, if you want to back it up. Q Now, do we see that jumper in the lower right-hand corner at 14:10, 20? JUDGE RAWALD: I'm sorry, sir. This is 17:13. You're reading the time remaining. (202) 2344433

MR. FELDMAN: I 'm sorry. JUDGE RAWALD: That's okay. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE,, NW WASHINGTON, D,C, 20005-37013-37

1 BY MR. FELDMAN: 2 Q 17:13, 25, do we see a jumper in the 3 frame? 4 A I may see one canopy that's looking 5 like two kind of down in the bottom almost 6 center. 7 Q Okay. Now, let's look at the canopy 8 as I move forward. 9 Do you see at 17:13, 14, do you see 10 the canopy almost in the center of the frame - 11 A But - 12 Q -- very small? 13 A But low? 14 Q No. 15 JUDGE RAWALD: He's still referring to 16 the same one that he was referring to all 17 throughout, the one that's sort of reddish 18 appearance or in the center of the frame. 19 20 21 Q 22 frames.

(202) 234-4433 THE WITNESS: Okay. Yeah, I see that. BY MR. FELDMAN: Let's back it up from 17:15 and 16

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### 3-38

1 

### Do you see them at 17:13 and 17 2 frames? 3 A 

### Yes. 4 Q 

### Is there a blue sky above him, or is 5 it a cloud, if you can tell? 6 A 

### All I can see is what 1

### s behind him 7 from this angle. So, I see broken sky out there, 8 but I don 1

### t know what 1

### s directly above him from 9 this angle. 10 Q 

### Okay. Is there a multiple layer of 11 clouds in this frame? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 Q 

### And prior to this, would that 14 "multiple layer," does that mean that there 1

### s a 15 cloud layer below him? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### And would that be

- from the vantage 18 point of this camera, would that block the view 19 of this jumper prior to the point where he comes 20 out to the edge

- to the side of that cloud below 21 him? 22 A

(202)234-4433 

### Yes, it could.

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1 Q Okay. In this video that you've seen 2 up to 17 minutes, 18 seconds and 24 frames, did 3 you see any jumper pennant going through a cloud? 4 A No. 5 (Playing video.) 6 Q Now, he's panning the camera to the 7 right here. 8 Is that where the jumpers got out 9 where the camera is pointing now at 17:33, 15? 10 A I don't believe so. 11 (Playing video.) 12 Q We're going to 29:50. Start at 26:09. 13 (Playing video.) 14 Q Now, at this 26:40, 40, in this video, 15 TK Hinshaw asks on the radio ''A Pappa Alpha, say 16 again what the winds are,'' correct? 17 Did you hear that? 18 A 19 Q 20 that? 21 A 22

(202) 234-4433 Yes. And would he have a reason for asking

He was asking about the

- MR. BOBERTZ: Calls for speculation.

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1 THE WITNESS: He was asking about the 2 clouds. 3 JUDGE RAWALD: Sir, when there's an 4 objection, you can't answer the question until I 5 rule on the objection. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 (Playing video.) 8 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman, please 9 stop the video. I 'm ruling on the objection. 10 Stop the video. 11 MR. FELDMAN: I thought you were done. 12 I thought you ruled on it. 13 JUDGE RAWALD: How have I ruled? Did 14 I say "sustained" or "overruled," sir? Have you 15 heard either one of those words? 16 MR. FELDMAN: I thought I heard

- 17 JUDGE RAWALD: I had not heard either 18 of those words, Mr. Feldman. 19 MR. FELDMAN: I apologize. 20 JUDGE RAWALD: Thank you. Okay. So, 21 there's an objection on the table, which is this 22 is speculation.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-41 1 Your witness has not answered the 2 question yet. So, let's wait for the witness to 3 answer the question after I rule, before you move 4 the videotape. 5 So, the objection was this calls for 6 speculation. Your question was, why would TK 7 Hinshaw be asking that question? 8 That is speculative, because he's not 9 TK Hinshaw. You can ask him a question about why 10 someone would be curious of that fact, but you 11 cannot ask it the way you asked it. 12 So, the objection is sustained, sir. 13 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 14 (Playing video.) 15 BY MR. FELDMAN: 16 Q I'm going to 29:32. 17 (Playing video.) 18 Q TK Hinshaw said, ''There they are,'' at 19 30:16 into the video. 20 Do you see any jumpers in that frame? 21 A 22

(202) 234-4433 No, I don't. (Playing video.)

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1 Q Stopping it at 30:27, 20, do you see 2 a white object in the frame? 3 A I do. 4 Q And what is that object? 5 A That would be the drogue pilot chute 6 for a tandem. 7 (Playing video.) 8 Q And was that in clouds, or did it 9 appear - it was seen in blue skies. 10 Is that a correct statement? 11 A There was blue sky in the background. 12 I wouldn't say he's in blue sky, but I'm not 13 looking at what is in his area from this angle. 14 Q And is that because he's farther away 15 and what's below him is unable to be seen? 16 A Yes. 17 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. 18 Argumentative. Leading. 19 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, it's really asked 20 and answered. He's already- he's already stated 21 it numerous times that no matter where this 22 person is, he can't tell because they're not

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-43 1 directly underneath. 2 And he's doing it fairly, seemingly, 3 for both cloud cover and for blue sky, from what 4 I'm hearing the gentleman say; is that correct, 5 sir? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So, the 8 objection is sustained for the asked and 9 answered. 10 (Playing video.) 11 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman, is there 12 a question coming? 13 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 15 MR. BOBERTZ: Excuse me, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes. 17 MR. BOBERTZ: If I could just have

- 18 I know we discussed it already, but if I could 19 have two minutes to break

- 20 JUDGE RAWALD: Recess. 21 MR. 22 appreciate it.

(202) 234-4433 BOBERTZ: I

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(202) 234-44333-44

1 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. We'll take a 2 five-minute recess. 3 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. 4 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 5 went off the record at 9:48 a.m. and resumed at 6 9:52 a.m.) 7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. We 're back on 8 the record after a brief recess. Mr. Sanders 9 remains on the stand. 10 Mr. Feldman, please continue. 11 BY MR. FELDMAN: 12 Q Starting at 3 8 minutes, 41 seconds 13 into the video A14. 14 (Playing video.) 15 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman, will you 16 just

- 17 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 18 JUDGE RAWALD: Is there a question 19 corning? I just want to make sure. 20 21 22

(202)234-4433 MR. FELDMAN: Yeah. JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you. BY MR. FELDMAN:

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1 Q Looking at the video at 31:06 and 12 2 frames, as I advance it, do you see a canopy 3 coming in at the lower right-hand quadrant? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And watching that as I advance through 6 the frames, do you see that canopy at any point 7 going into or through a cloud? 8 A No. 9 Q Moving on to A15, we'll go to 35 10 seconds in. Backing up to 33 seconds and I'll 11 play it at a normal speed from here. 12 (Playing video.) 13 Q Now, looking at

- did you see a jumper 14 on the right-hand side of this frame? 15 A I did. 16 Q And is that the jumper that becomes 17 visible after the pan? Is that the one to which 18 you're referring? 19 A Yes. 20 Q As I advance in slow motion, I want 21 you to look and give me an opinion on whether or 22 not this jumper went through a cloud or into a

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-46

1 cloud. 2 JUDGE RAWALD: And just for clarity on 3 the record, what Mr. Feldman is referring to as 4 "the pan," is that the camera then started to 5 move to the right. So, it panned, and that's 6 what he's referring to with the witness. 7 BY MR. FELDMAN: 8 Q Now, he's panning left again at zero 9 minutes, 43 seconds and two frames into the 10 video. 11 In that entire time that that jumper 12 was visible, did you ever see him go into or 13 through a cloud? 14 A No. 15 Q At 1:22 and 18 frames, do you see 16 canopies in this image? 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 image? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 Yes. How many do you see? Three. Can you tell what is above him by this

No.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-47 

### 1 Q 

### Are you looking directly up at them in 2 this image? 3 

### A No. 4 Q 

### How can you tell? 5 

### A The shape of the parachutes, you can 6 

### see that that's definitely not looking straight 7 

### up at the canopy. It's the shape. 8 Q 

### Now, I'm backing it up to 1:18 and I 9 want you to look at the bottom and tell me if you 10 

### see a canopy come into frame. 11 A 

### Yes. 12 Q 

### Is that canopy coming into frame below 13 the clouds or in front of the clouds? 14 A 

### There's so little contrast here I 15 can't tell. 16 Q 

### And is that shot at one minute, 18 17 seconds and 16 frames in focus, our out of focus? 18 A 

### It's out of focus. 19 Q 

### I'm going to go to one minute, 3 7 20 seconds and 14 frames in and ask you to look at 21 the left-hand upper quadrant of the screen and 22 tell me when you see a canopy appear in view, if

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-48 

### 1 you do. 2 A 

### Now. 3 Q 

### Is that canopy in a cloud at that 4 

### point at one minute, 38 

### seconds and nine frames? 5 A 

### No. 6 Q 

### And did you - can you tell whether 7 

### that canopy - what

- can you tell what is above 8 

### that canopy rather than what is behind that 9 

### canopy? 10 A 

### No. 11 Q 

### Now, here, disregarding the bird at 12 2:05 into the frame, do you see canopies here? 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### Can you tell from this video, whether 15 they jumped into or through a cloud? 16 A 

### No. 17 Q 

### And, again, at two minutes, 12 seconds 18 and six frames in, there's a bright spot at the 19 lower left quadrant of the screen. 20 Do you know what that is? 21 A 

### It's either a clearer sky or brighter, 22 because the sun is over in that direction.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-44333-49 1 Q Now, here at 2:50 and

- two minutes, 2 50 seconds and 18 frames, is the camera in or out 3 of focus? 4 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, Your Honor. 5 This is getting very repetitive. I think we've 6 made the points on these and they seem to be just 7 very repetitive. And in the interest of the 8 court's time, I would9 JUDGE RAWALD: Just when I think it's 10 repetitive, something new gets said by the 11 witness. So, I'm going to allow it to go on for 12 the moment, counsel. The objection is overruled, 13 but I do note that. 14 And I have made the admonition to Mr. 15 Feldman yesterday to please focus on new things. 16 I think he's been making a good effort here to 17 try to focus on new things. So, I 'm going to 18 allow him a little more room here to maneuver. 19 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 20 BY MR. FELDMAN: 21 Q Now, at two minutes, 50 seconds and 18 22 frames, you stated the camera was out of focus?

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-44333-50

1 A It's out of focus. 2 Q Now, I want you to watch a jumper that 3 appears when the camera comes into focus. 4 Do you see a - do you see a dark spot 5 almost in between those two open canopies? 6 A I do. 7 Q Okay. And as I move slowly through it 8 from

- now, at two minutes, 49 seconds and 28 9 frames, that jumper in between the two open 10 canopies is not visible, correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q And as the camera pans, does that 13 jumper become visible? 14 A It was kind of a tilt down, yes. 15 Q okay. Now, watch it from this point 16 now at two minutes, 50 seconds and three frames. 17 The jumper goes out of the frame at 18 three minutes, seven seconds and eight frames, 19 correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q At any time during that period in the 22 video I just showed you, did that jumper go out

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-51 1 of sight? 2 From the time he came in the frame at 3 the bottom until the time he just left the frame 4 at the bottom of the frame, was he visible in all 5 of the video? 6 A I can't recall. 7 JUDGE RAWALD: And so, what's relevant 8 here

-- 9 BY MR. FELDMAN: 10 Q Do you have an opinion as to whether 11 12 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman, pardon me. 13 And so, what's relevant here, 14 seemingly, the witness testified on the 15 government side that because that shadow seems to 16 be behind a cloud, that he assessed that jumper 17 to be going through a cloud. 18 Do you agree with that assessment? 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. You can move on, 21 Mr. Feldman. 22 And, Mr. Sanders, I assume it's for

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-52 1 all the same reasons you articulated earlier. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you. 4 BY MR. FELDMAN: 5 Q I'm going to move on to six- to 7:11. 6 (Playing video.) 7 Q Now, looking at this video at 7:51 and 8 19 frames in, do you see jumpers there? 9 A I see parachutes for the jumpers. 10 Q And do you see blue sky in that frame? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And where is that located? 13 A Behind them. 14 Q Again, you can't tell what's above 15 them, correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Leading. 18 JUDGE RAWALD: Objection overruled. 19 (Playing video.) 20 BY MR. FELDMAN: 21 Q I'm going to start this video at 7:57 22 and 28 frames and slowly advance it. And I want

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1 you to watch carefully and give me an opinion on 2 the number of jumpers that you see and why

- 3 well, let me just advance it. 4 At 7:58, 25, how many jumpers do you 5 see? 6 A Four. 7 Q And where are they? 8 A There's two about the same level, 9 one's centered in the frame left to right, in the 10 bottom fifth, and then to
- off to the left of 11 that jumper you can see one. And then diagonally 12 towards the corner there's one up there. And 13 there's also one above the bottom right jumper. 14 Q Now, at the bottom

- the bottom right 15 quadrant there, are there multiple layers of 16 clouds, or a single layer? 17 A Multiple. 18 Q Now, I'll advance it slowly. 19 Do more jumpers appear in the frame at 20 8:01, 16? 21 A 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 Yes. And is there a reason that you didn't

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1 

### see them in the frame before and you see them at 2 8:01, 16? 3 A 

### They got forward speed, SO 

### it IS 4 

### possible that they just flew into view. It's 5 also the camera was zooming in and getting a 6 little better on the focus. 7 Q 

### And 8:02, one second later, are those 8 jumpers above or below the clouds? 9 A 

### They're below the clouds that I see in 10 the background. 11 Q 

### And was this shot directly above the 12 camera, or at an angle? 13 A At an angle. 14 Q 

### Approximately what angle, if you can 15 determine? 16 A 

### Looking at the shape of the 17 parachutes, I would say like a 30-degree angle. 18 Q 

### And now when the camera zooms out, 19 those jumpers become less visible. 20 Would you - 21 JUDGE RAWALD : 

### Is that a question, 22 sir?

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1 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 2 BY MR. FELDMAN: 3 Q When the camera zooms out, do the 4 jumpers become more or less visible? 5 A Smaller. 6 Q More or less visible? 7 A Less. 8 Q And looking here starting at 9:36

- 9 I'll play it

- 9:36 and 15 frames. 10 (Playing video.) 11 Q Stopping at 9:47 and 28, did you see 12 any jumper in that frame go into or through a 13 cloud? 14 A No. 15 (Playing video.) 16 Q Moving to 13:45. 17 (Playing video.) 18 Q Stopping at 13:52. So, 13:44, 13, do 19 you see a canopy in the picture? 20 A No. 21 Q As I advance forward, do you see a 22 canopy at 13:45

-

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1 A Yes. 2 Q -- and ten frames? 3 And do you have an opinion as to why 4 you didn't see it at one second, and the next 5 second you did? 6 A One reason might have been the 7 parachute just opening so now it's big enough to 8 see from thousands of feet away, or it came from 9 behind a layer. 10 Q In your opinion, did that jumper jump 11 into or through a cloud? 12 A No. 13 Q Now, at 13:58, 11, do you see a jumper 14 in the frame? 15 A No. 16 Q Moving forward at 13:59 and 27 frames, 17 do you see a jumper? 18 A It came into view and then went out. 19 I kind of see it back and forth on those frames 20 as you move it. It's going in and out of view. 21 Q And do you have a reason why you would 22 see them one second, and not the next second, in

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-57 1 your opinion? 2 A Focus for sure, because it just blurs 3 all the pixels together. You can't see any 4 detail. That would certainly be one. 5 It could also be something between the 6 camera and where he is blocked from the view. 7 Q And would something between it mean 8 that the jumper went into or through a cloud? Is 9 it more likely than not that he didn't go through 10 a cloud? 11 A It's more likely that he did not. 12 Q And at 14:06, 23, how many canopies do 13 you see? 14 A One. 15 Q I'll go forward from there, slowly. 16 At 14:07, 25, one second later, and 17 two frames later, do you see -how many canopies 18 do you see? 19 A Two. 20 Q And is there a reason that you first 21 only saw one, and one second later you saw two, 22 in your expert opinion?

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1 A 

### It appeared to me that there was 2 something blocking the view of the canopy and 3 it's flying forward into view. 4 Do you have an opinion as to whether 5 top canopy in this picture went into 6 a cloud at 14:07, 25, we're looking at 7 8 

### More likely that they did not. 9 

### I'm going into this frame at 14 10 minutes, 18 seconds and 28 frames. The camera 11 

### will tilt down. I'd like you to tell me if you 12 see another jumper come into the frame. 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### Can you tell and where is that 15 jumper? 16 A 

### Center and just slightly above the 17 bottom of the frame. 18 Q 

### 19 the video, 20 

### A 21 Q 

### 22 went into

(202) 234-4433 

### And that's at 14:19 and 10 frames into correct? Yes. And can you tell whether

or through a cloud?

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 

### that jumper

(202) 234-44333-59

1 A No. 2 Q Why not? 3 A I'm not seeing any of the action that 4 took place from straight above from an angle that 5 could tell me anything. 6 Q Are there multiple layers of clouds

- 7 A Yes. 8 Q -- in this shot? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Is the camera filming at an angle, or 11 is it straight up? 12 A At an angle. 13 Q And approximately what angle, in your 14 expert opinion? 15 A 30-35 degrees. 16 Q Now, looking here at 14: 20 and 2 6 17 frames, I'd like you to watch the upper center of 18 the

- upper third center screen to tell me if you 19 see a canopy appear as I advance the video. 20 A I do. 21 Q And are there multiple layers of 22 clouds here?

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-60

1 A Yes 2 Q Do you have an opinion as to whether 3 that jumper is behind or above the lower level of 4 clouds prior to you seeing him? 5 A From the camera vantage point, it 6 appeared he's behind that lower layer and then 7 flew forward and was revealed to the camera. 8 Q Can you tell how much altitude there 9 is between those two layers? 10 A No. 11 Q And is the frame in focus, or out of 12 focus? 13 A Out of focus. 14 (Pause.) 15 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman, is there 16 a question coming? 17 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. I'm trying to find 18 the next point. 19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 20 BY MR. FELDMAN: 21 Q Now, at 15:06 and 28 seconds, do you 22 see any canopies in the video?

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-61

1 A No, I do not. 2 Q Are there single or multiple layers of 3 clouds? 4 A Multiple layers. 5 Q And at 15:08 and six seconds, do you 6 see a canopy in the video? 7 A I do. 8 Q And where is that located? 9 A Just left of center of the screen. 10 JUDGE RAWALD: And to be clear for the 11 record when Mr. Feldman says 1106 seconds, 11 he 12 meant 06 frames. So, one of the three sets of 13 digits, the third set is the frames. The second 14 being the seconds. Okay. 15 BY MR. FELDMAN: 16 Q This is at 15:08 and six frames in. 17 You see a canopy, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Now, as I back it up at 15:07 and 10 20 seconds in, you don't see the canopy, correct? 21 A 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 That's correct. Do you have an explanation as to why

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 3-62 1 you don't see them at 15:07, 10, and you see them 2 at 15:08 and 10? 3 A 

### Looks to me like the color of the 4 parachute is not discernible with the black

- or 5 the blue that's in the background from this 6 

### angle. And then he goes forward in front of a 7 cloud, and so you see the color of the parachute 8 more clearly because he's got a cloud in the 9 background in the camera. 10 Q 

### So, is that fair to say that that's a 11 contrast issue? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 Q 

### Okay. Moving on to A32. 14 (Playing video.) 15 Q 

### I'm stopping it at 47 seconds and 19 16 frames into the video. And I'll go back to that 17 here. 18 Now, it appears here at 47 seconds and 19 19 seconds, that

- tell me whether or not you 20 think this parachute is going into or through a 21 cloud. 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### No. The cameraman is falling 200 feet

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-63 1 per second and they deploy above and to the side 2 of the cloud. Now, he's looking up through, you 3 know, there's moisture in the air, for sure. 4 It's next to a cloud, but I saw them open above 5 the cloud before he dropped below with the camera 6 angle. 7 JUDGE RAWALD: So, sir, just to be 8 clear, neither the tandem nor the videographer, 9 in your opinion, are going through a cloud. 10 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 11 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 12 BY MR. FELDMAN: 13 Q Now, at 52 seconds and 10 frames in, 14 do you see any clouds in the image? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And in your opinion, did either the 17 jumper or the cameraperson go through that cloud 18 that you see in the image? 19 A No. 20 Q Moving on to 8:33 and I'll start it at 21 30 seconds in. 22 (Playing video.)

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-64

1 Q 

### Stopping it at 58:22 in. I'll start 2 playing it again at 51:15 in. 3 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Well, sir, so was there 4 

### a question based upon that? Because you can't 5 just keep replaying it. 6 

### MR. FELDMAN: I'm backing up and I'm 7 starting

- 8 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Well, you just played 9 it. So, you're going frame by frame now? 10 

### MR. FELDMAN: I'd like it - I will. 11 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 12 BY MR. FELDMAN: 13 Q 

### I'd like you to watch from 51 seconds, 14 15 frames in as the jumper opens. 15 (Playing video.) 16 Q 

### Do you have an opinion as to whether 17 that jumper went into or through a cloud? 18 A 

### Not a cloud that would obscure your 19 view of the ground with your eyes, no. 20 Q 

### 21 vertically? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### And as he opens, do you have a view During the parachute

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 

### deployment,

(202) 234-44333-65 1 you're looking outward in wide angles picking up 2 the canopy. He's looking horizontally. 3 Q But looking

- 4 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman, if I 5 could, sir, I could not help but notice that you 6 gave a very good caveat there, which was, "Not a 7 cloud that would obscure the view of the ground 8 with your eyes.'' 9 So, he could be going through a cloud, 10 but it wouldn't be enough to obscure his vision? 11 THE WITNESS: No, I think there is

- 12 I there's moisture in the air. 13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: And I also think that 15 the camera is nowhere near what our eyes are. 16 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 17 THE WITNESS: And so, I think

- and 18 I've had this happen to me many times where my 19 ringsight will fog up, my lens will fog up, but I 20 can see through it and there's water vapor, but 21 I've never lost sight of the ground. 22 JUDGE RAWALD: So, in your opinion,

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-66 

### 1 did he go through a cloud, or did he not go 2 through a cloud? 3 

### THE WITNESS: No. 4 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 5 

### BY MR. FELDMAN: 6 Q 

### Moving on to A34

- or, excuse me, A35. 7 

### (Playing video.) 8 Q 

### Looking at A35, I'm going to stop at 9 50 seconds and 10 frames and slowly advance it to 10 52 and nine seconds. 11 Do you have an opinion as to whether 12 or not that jumper went through a cloud? 13 A 

### My opinion is he did not go through a 14 cloud. 15 Q 

### And on what do you base that? 16 A 

### There's no time that the camera looks 17 straight down. It's always looking out in front. 18 It's also the tandems are clearly opening up in 19 the drier air and they're open above. 20 The the camerapeople here are 21 opening at cloud level. So, there's lots of 22 moisture on the lens as well.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 3-67

1 Q 

### Going to A38 . I'll start you at 36 2 seconds in. 3 (Playing video.) 4 Q 

### I'll stop it at 59 seconds and eight 5 frames. 6 Do you have an opinion as to whether 7 the tandem pair went into or through a cloud? 8 A 

### I believe they opened above and to the 9 side. 10 Q 

### Is that your opinion? 11 A 

### That's my opinion. 12 Q 

### And do you have an opinion as to 13 whether the cameraperson ever went into or 14 through a cloud in this jump? 15 A I believe they did not go through a 16 cloud, that their lens fogged as they hit the 17 moisture layer. 18 Q 

### So, that's your opinion that it did 19 not go through a cloud? 20 A 21 Q 

### 22 moisture?

(202) 234-4433 

### That's my opinion. And, in fact, can you see the

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-44333-68 

### 1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### Is there a propensity for GoPro 3 cameras to fog up because of humidity in the air? 4 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Asked and 5 answered. 6 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Yeah, you covered this 7 thoroughly before we got into the videos earlier 8 today. So, the objection is sustained. 9 

### BY MR. FELDMAN: 10 Q 

### Do the housings in any way around the 11 GoPro camera contribute to the propensity of the 12 GoPro camera to fog up? 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### And how? 15 A 

### The air that's captured inside that 16 sealed box when it changes temperature, it 17 creates a cloud in the camera. So, around cloud 18 level it will do that. 19 Q 

### And you've seen numerous GoPro 20 footages where this has happened in your career 21 as a skydiving

- 22

(202) 234-4433 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Objection.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-69

1 BY MR. FELDMAN: 2 Q professional? 3 MR. BOBERTZ: Asked and answered. 4 JUDGE RAWALD: He discussed this a lot 5 as well, sir. The objection is sustained. 6 BY MR. FELDMAN: 7 Q And just to summarize after watching 8 all of the videos, both the ones taken from the 9 ground and the ones taken from the air, have you 10 seen any instance of a skydiver from Pacific 11 International Skydiving conducting their 12 parachute jump into or through a cloud? 13 A No, I haven['t. 14 Q And that's your expert opinion? 15 A Yes. 16 MR. FELDMAN: Nothing further at this 17 time. 18 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Bobertz. 19 MR. BOBERTZ: I apologize, Your Honor. 20 Can I have another two minutes? 21 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 22 brief recess.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 we'11 take a

(202) 234-44333-70 1 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 2 went off the record at 10:33 a.m. and resumed at 3 10:36 a.m.) 4 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. We're back from 5 our recess, Mr. Sanders remains on the stand, and 6 Mr. Bobertz will now cross examine. 7 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 8 CROSS EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 10 Q Good morning, Mr. Sanders. 11 A Good morning. 12 Q Are you being paid for your testimony 13 today? 14 A I am. 15 Q And how much? 16 A $500 an hour. 17 Q Okay. Do you skydive at Dillingham? 18 A Yes, I do. 19 Q With who? 20 A With my wife. 21 Q On your own? Do you have your own 22 plane? Do you go with one of the operators?

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-44333-71

1 A No, we jump at Pacific International 2 Skydiving Center. 3 Q And how long have you been doing that? 4 A About 14 years. 5 Q Do they charge you? 6 A No, they don't. 7 Q And how long have you known Mr. 8 Banelle (phonetic)? 9 A 35 years. 10 Q Are you friends? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Good friends? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Do you have lunch? Dinner? 15 A No. We're both too busy. 16 Q Ever go on a trip with him? 17 A No. 18 Q Anyone else at Pacific Skydiving that 19 you consider a friend or a relative? 20 A Yeah, there's a number of people that 21 are friends, not relatives. 22 Q

(202) 234·4433 Have you ever been an expert witness

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44333-72 1 before? 2 A I believe I have, but I can't 3 remember. It's been a while. 4 Q So, if you did, it would have been 5 infrequent, it sounds like. 6 A Yeah. 7 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, may I have 8 the screen? 9 JUDGE RAWALD: You may. 10 (Playing video.) 11 MR. BOBERTZ: One moment, Your Honor, 12 while I get to where I need to be, please. 13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 14 MR. BOBERTZ: I have advanced- I'm on 15 Exhibit A5, and I've advanced to five minutes and 16 47 seconds

- I'm sorry, let me go a little bit 17 further. 18 (Playing video.) 19 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry. 20 please. 21 (Playing video.) 22 BY MR. BOBERTZ:

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 Hold on,

(202) 234-44333-73

1 Q So, I pause it at -I'm sorry, let me 2 go back one second. 3 (Playing video.) 4 Q Mr. Sanders, do you see a jumper in 5 that frame? 6 A I see a parachute. 7 Q Okay. And so I paused at 6:06. I 8 understand it's not

- sort of a double image, 9 maybe, it's not completely focused, but it's

- 10 it's not so out of focus that you don't see a 11 jumper there, right? 12 A No, I see a parachute. 13 Q Okay. The contrast isn't so bad that 14 you don't see a parachute there, right? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q It's not so zoomed in or zoomed out 17 that you can't see an image there, is it? 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 images?

(202) 234-4433 No. Do you see any other images? I just see sky and clouds. All right. But no other parachute

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-74

1 A No. 2 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I got to do 3 my version of the frame by frame. I don't have 4 the equipment Mr. Feldman has, but I have my 5 finger. 6 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 7 Q So, do you see another image yet? 8 A No. 9 JUDGE RAWALD: And just to be clear, 10 Mr. Bobertz, by "image" you mean another jumper, 11 another

- 12 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 14 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 15 Q So, now I pause it at 6:06. 16 Do you see another image? 17 A I just see the same parachute. 18 Q So, you don't see a small dot almost 19 directly below just to the right? 20 MR. FELDMAN: Objection. 21 Argumentative. 22 JUDGE RAWALD: He's asking a question

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-44333-75 

### 1 in a leading fashion. He left it open-ended 2 before and I asked him for clarification. 3 

### I'm going to allow it. Objection 4 overruled. 5 

### THE WITNESS: Now that you 1

### re pointing 6 

### to an area, I see a dot. I have no idea what it 7 

### is. 8 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 9 Q 

### Okay. But all this time you have been 10 able to see the image above, the larger one, 11 correct? 12 A 

### That's correct. 13 Q 

### And now you say- so, I'm at 6:06 and 14 now you say you do see a smaller image, a dot? 15 A 

### I see a very small image that could be 16 a parachute. 17 Q 

### That you didn't see before? 18 A 

### Yes. 19 Q 

### I'm going to continue. So, now I'm at 20 6:07. 21 

### Is it more clear to you now, that 22 second image?

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433

### 3-76 1 A 

### A tiny bit, yes. 2 Q 

### I'll continue at 6:07. 3 

### (Playing video.) 4 Q 

### Pausing at 6:09, is it becoming 5 clearer to you? 6 A 

### It's also getting bigger and the 7 parachute is opening. 8 Q 

### Okay. 9 

### (Playing video.) 10 Q 

### So, when you first saw that, the first 11 image, you talked before about the camera quality 12 and it being so cheap, but it wasn't so cheap and 13 poor that you couldn't see that first image, 14 right? 15 A 

### But it missed a lot before it. 16 Whatever I'm seeing there, I can agree I see, 17 but, I mean, even right now the

- 18 Q 

### I'm not asking about now. But when we 19 were showing that other one, you could see that 20 image even though the camera was cheap and poor 21 quality, in your words. 22 A I could see a parachute.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-77

1 Q Thank you. 2 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I'm going to 3 go to Exhibit A7. 4 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 5 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 6 Q And I'm going to go to one minute or 7 59 seconds. So, I'm going to play it slowly or 8 frame by

- semi-frame by frame from here. I'll 9 go through it and I'll back it up a little bit. 10 (Playing video.) 11 Q Okay. So, you see this parachute, Mr. 12 Sanders, here? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And you see this one here? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. I'm going to back it up a 17 little bit. 18 A So, I stopped it at 1:04. 19 Do you see the parachute that I 20 referred to earlier that was just below - a 21 little bit right of center, little bit lower than 22 center?

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-44333-78 1 A Yes. 2 Q So, Mr. Hinshaw's camera isn't so poor 3 quality that you can't make out that parachute 4 that I'm pointing to. 5 A At that altitude, you can see a 6 parachute. 7 Q And it's not so zoomed in or zoomed 8 out that you can't see that parachute, is it? 9 A No. 10 Q And the contrast isn't so poor that 11 you can't see that parachute, is it? 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A No. Q So, now I'm at 1:05. Do you see another parachute yet? A Yes. Q And where is it? A On the left diagonal. Q Okay. I'm going to back up just a little bit. And now you know where to look for it. I'm at 1:03.

A

(202)234-4433 Do you see another parachute? Now, I see on the bottom right where

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-79

1 

### it's a smudge on the lens. 2 Q 

### This one here? 3 A 

### Farther to the right. 4 Q 

### Okay. Okay. Again, I'll ask if you 5 could focus in this area and

- 6 A 

### Okay. 7 Q 

### tell me when you see a second 8 

### parachute. 9 A 

### All right. 10 Q 

### So, again, I'm going semi-frame by 11 

### frame. I know I'm covering a lot more frames in 12 one - 13 A 

### Right. 14 Q 

### click of the mouse than Mr. 15 Feldman, but

- so, I'm still at 1:03. 16 

### Is the one parachute still visible to 17 

### you that we talked about just right of center, 18 

### just lower of center? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### Still at 1:03. Still at 1:03. Still 21 at 1:03. 1:03. Still at 1:03. Still at 1:03. 22

(202) 234-4433 

### Do you see - now, do you see this

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-80 

### 1 small dot here? Does that look like a parachute 2 to you? 3 A 

### Now that you pointed the arrow there, 4 I see a dot. 5 Q 

### Okay. Did you see it before then? 6 A 

### I don't think so. 7 Q 

### Okay. So, the camera is okay to see 8 here, but something you're saying

- you've had a 9 lot of testimony about the

- something blocking, 10 the haze, the bad camera, the focus of the 11 camera, but yet here we've been able to see this 12 one to the right the whole time, and now - just 13 now the one to the left appeared when

- isn't 14 that correct? For you, it just appeared for you? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### Thank you. 17 

### MR. BOBERTZ: One moment, Your Honor. 18 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 19 

### BY MR. BOBERTZ: 20 Q 

### Mr. Sanders, you talked before about 21 the angle of the clouds and somehow you felt like 22 you could tell by just

- by looking.

(202)234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-81

1 What's your opinion on the angle that 2 this is being filmed at? 3 A Well, it's easier to tell the angle 4 when you see the chute the parachute. I 5 understand that's at least 30 degrees out. 6 Q So, let me go a little further on this 7 one. 8 (Playing video.) 9 Q So, I don't know. Can you see enough 10 of a shape of a parachute to have that help your 11 opinion regarding the angle? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. What is it? 14 A By 30 degrees. 15 Q Okay. All right. I'm going to go to 16 A14. 17 MR. BOBERTZ: One more moment, please, 18 Your Honor. 19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 20 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 21 Q All right. So, I'm going to start 22 this at 5:52 or 5:51.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-82

1 (Playing video.) 2 Q I'm sorry, did I - I think I went to 3 the wrong - sorry. 4 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry, Your Honor. 5 One moment, please. 6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And just as an 7 advisory, Mr. Bobertz, it's very clear to me that 8 your point is well made that there are times 9 where you can see thing and not another thing, 10 and the other thing will appear later. 11 So, if you're going to make that point 12 at different points of time, I understand that 13 point. 14 MR. BOBERTZ: Understood, Your Honor. 15 Thank you. 16 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 17 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 18 Q Okay. I'm going to 5:20 on A14. 19 (Playing video.) 20 Q Mr. Sanders, do you see in this area, 21 do you see that which appears to be a parachute? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 Yes.

NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-83

1 Q I paused at 5:27. All right. Let me 2 back it up just a little bit. 3 Do you see that general area, I think 4 it was in here, do you see a parachute yet? 5 A No. 6 JUDGE RAWALD: And that's at 5:24? 7 MR. BOBERTZ: 5:25. 8 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 9 Q No? Yes? 10 A No. 11 Q I think now we have to pan back. 12 Okay. Now, we're at 5:27. 13 Do you see a parachute? 14 A I see a dot that probably is a 15 parachute. 16 Q Is that right here? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. All right. Let me just go back 19 just a little bit. 20 21 Q 22 A

(202) 234-4433 (Playing video.) Do No.you see it yet?

NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-84 1 Q 

### Now? And, for the record, I'm at 5:26 2 pausing

- fast forwarding

- running the video 3 forward just a bit at a time, several frames at a 4 time. 5 

### A I don't see it yet. 6 Q 

### Still at 5:26. 7 

### A I see it now. 8 Q 

### okay. So, you didn't see it, and then 9 

### you saw it, and we're still at 5:26. 10 

### And your explanation for that is what? 11 A 

### The same reason that we didn't see 12 your witness when they jumped. There was a cloud 13 in the foreground. Or, in this case, it also is 14 so far away it could be that the parachute just 15 

### opened. I don't know. one of those two. 16 Q 

### Okay. So now, I'm going to play about 17 five minutes of this. And what I'd like for you 18 to do for me is see if you can follow that 19 parachute that we see there, to the ground. 20 And I'll help you out why it

- with 21 some questions along the way, but I want to see 22 if you feel like you could follow that down to

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-85 

### 1 the ground. 2 (Playing video.) 3 Q 

### So, I paused it at 5:41. 4 Is there any indication to you about 5

- any information about that parachute, whether 6 it's a tandem or not, the color? What do you see 7 that might help identify that? 8 A 

### It looks orange. 9 Q 

### And any thoughts on whether it's a 10 tandem or a single? 11 A I would

- it would be a guess, but it 12 looks big. So, it looks like a tandem. 13 Q 

### Would the fact that it

- and the one 14 below that to the right, is that potentially a 15 cameraman for that tandem? 16 A 

### We actually can't tell. We can't tell 17 if that parachute is a mile further away and 18 that's why they're smaller. 19 

### I don't know if they're below or 20 

### they're further behind and above. There's in 21 this one-dimensional image here shot at an angle, 22 it just doesn't give information.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-86

1 I see two parachutes, for sure. 2 Q So, with all your· photography 3 background, you can't

- you don't know whether 4 those

- that one parachute might be a mile behind 5 the other one? 6 MR. FELDMAN: Objection. 7 Argumentative. 8 JUDGE RAWALD: I think he's just 9 asking him to explain with his expertise whether 10 or not he can make the analysis. 11 I'm going to allow it. The objection 12 is sustained

- overruled. Excuse me. 13 THE WITNESS: I think there's so many 14 ways that you can be misled. You see something 15 smaller, so you think it's further away. 16 Could be a smaller parachute. There's 17 just not enough information for me to be able to 18 tell who's in the foreground. I'm not looking at 19 it in person with 3D eyes. 20 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 21 Q Understand. Thank you. 22 So, I'm going to keep playing and I'll

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-87 1 tell you there's a- some time that you won't see 2 that parachute in the frame. So, I - so, you 3 know, but I'll -we'll see. 4 (Playing video.) 5 Q So, there's some other parachutes now 6 coming into view, a couple down below that

- do 7 you have any thoughts on can you tell me 8 anything about those? Color? Size? 9 A I can't tell if they're a drogue or a 10 parachute, because it's just a white dot. 11 Q Okay. 12 A I would assume just knowing skydiving 13 operations, these are people that exited later. 14 They're further away. 15 Earlier I thought I saw a drogue and 16 then it started cruising around. It was a 17 canopy. So, I see the two white dots. Drogue or 18 a canopy, I can't tell right now. 19 Q Okay. And I was at - I paused at five 20 minutes, 58 seconds. 21 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 (Playing video.) Do you have any other

- any different

NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-88

1 opinion about the one we've been following again, 2 whether it's still orange or that's a tandem or 3 any additional information for you? 4 A It's orange. I do notice that as it 5 does turns, you go from seeing a bigger image to 6 a profile where it almost disappears. So, a lot 7 of the changing in visibility is that these are 8 high-performance parachutes and they're flying 9 around. They're moving forward, they're flying 10 around in circles. They could go behind clouds, 11 but you do see a different shape of the canopy 12 and it determines the size. 13 All I can tell is that it's been doing 14 turns and it's orange. 15 Q Okay. Thank you. So, I paused at 16 6:23, if I didn't say that before. 17 I'm continuing. 18 (Playing video.) 19 Q So, there it's gone out of the frame, 20 but you kind of have an idea about where it's at 21 if the camera is going to repan to it? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 Yes.

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### 1 Q 

### So, it's coming back in now in that 2 5:40 -or, I'm sorry, 6:40. Now, it's out of the 3 frame again down below. 4 A 

### Uh-huh. 5 Q 

### Here it is again now at 6:45 near the 6 bottom. 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### Okay. Going out of frame again, back 9 

### in. Okay. So, just at 6:51, it

-- he pans away 10 and it's off to the right, but you still have an 11 idea about where it's at? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 

### (Playing video.) 14 Q 

### Any chance the two you've seen land

- 15 or the one you see land and the next one - and 16 we're at 7:30

- was that the parachute we were 17 following? 18 A 

### I thought the parachute was more 19 orange. 20 Q 

### Thank you. Let me back up a little 21 

### bit. Sorry. Back a little further. Now, I'm 22 back at 7:15 and I want to catch something we saw

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-90 

### 1 a moment ago. 2 (Playing video.) 3 Q 

### So, now I've paused it at 7:39. I see 4 a parachute to the right center of the screen. 5 

### Is that that same parachute, in your 6 opinion? 7 A 

### It would be, I guess, but I would

- 8 

### it's an educated guess. It's the one I would 9 expect it to be. 10 Q 

### Thank you. Continuing. 11 

### (Playing video.) 12 Q 

### So, is that that same parachute that 13 you - in your opinion? 14 A I believe that they have many orange 15 parachutes. I'm not trying to be argumentative. 16 Q 

### I understand. 17 A All I'm saying is if I had to pick out 18 of all the ones I •ve seen, that would be it so 19 far. 20 Q 

### Okay. Did you see any orange 21 parachutes land before this one? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### I don't think so.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-91 1 MR. BOBERTZ: And for the record, this 2 was identified in earlier government testimony 3 that this individual appeared to be Jonathan 4 Fennell, the same person in the GoPro video from 5 Pacific

- 6 JUDGE RAWALD: I understand, counsel. 7 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. 8 (Playing video.) 9 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 10 Q So, he landed about eight minutes 11 even. And I'm just going to continue watching 12 the rest of these people land to see if anybody 13 else could be

- could have been that person. So, 14 now we see another tandem with a yellow 15 parachute, orange stripes. 16 Any chance that could be that person? 17 A It looked more orange. 18 Q Thank you. And now, we see a pink 19 parachute coming in at 8:30. 20 Any chance it was that person? 21 A There is a chance. Up in the sky it's 22 that tone that, you know, I'm just guessing,

(202)234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-44333-92 1 because we didn't

- we didn't follow it all the 2 way. 3 Q Understood. 4 (Playing video.) 5 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Bobertz, I am going 6 to note here nothing that he's doing is, at this 7 point, is using his expertise. We're merely 8 eliminating the fact that there could be another 9 orange parachute, which I could do without 10 testimony. 11 MR. BOBERTZ: Very good, Your Honor. 12 I'm happy to move on. 13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 14 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. 15 MR. BOBERTZ: okay. May I have one 16 moment? 17 JUDGE RAWALD: sure. And purpose of 18 the record, the other evidence that Mr. Bobertz 19 is referring was A32, the GoPro video of the 20 individual that was identified by Mr. McCowan 21 yesterday in testimony. 22 MR. BOBERTZ: And we're going to see

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### 3-93

1 

### that again real quick starting at actually, 2 we're going to watch this one. 3 (Playing video.) 4 

### BY MR. BOBERTZ: 5 Q 

### So, as we watch this, Mr. Sanders, 6 

### there's

- we've heard a lot of testimony about 7 

### layers of cloud, multiple layers. 8 

### Can you - as we go through this, and 9 

### I'll pause it if you want, when you see good 10 

### shots of the multiple layers that you're talking 11 

### about, please? 12 

### (Playing video.) 13 A 

### You can stop it now. 14 Q 

### Yes. 15 A 

### There is multiple layers. And 

### to me 16 from this perspective, I can see that, the high 17 layer in the distance, and then I can see 18 scattered ones down below it if you just look at 19 that blue stripe out there. 20 Q 

### Okay. So, that higher layer in the 21 

### distance, is that distance in yards, miles? Any 22 idea how far away that other layer is?

(202)234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-94 

### 1 A 

### It's probably miles. 2 Q 

### Okay. 3 A 

### With a GoPro, it's deceiving because 4 it distorts distances. 5 Q 

### Understood. So, that's- we're at 6 

### 01:13. 7 (Playing video.) 8 A 

### And here's another part where you can 9 kind of see this

- 10 Q 

### Okay. 11 A 

### layer off to the left, but this 12 stuff that's to the bottom right corner appears 13 to be a lower layer. 14 Q 

### Appears by how much, do you think? 15 A 

### Maybe a thousand feet. 16 Q 

### Okay. 17 A 

### Again, the worst thing to judge with 18 is a GoPro, because it's a - the most distorted 19 lenses that you make. 20 Q 

### 21 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### Okay. At 0:23 pausing, now going on. (Playing video.) Do you want another example?

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1 Q Sure. 2 A Out over the ocean there appears to 3 be, you know, lower, real wispy clouds out there. 4 And this is real common. I mean, this is what we 5 see all the time is different layers. And also, 6 you know, different thicknesses on some clouds, 7 different heights. 8 Q Okay. That was paused at 0:30. 9 (Playing video.) 10 Q So, now I've paused it at 46 seconds 11 and I believe you testified on direct that they 12 were not in a cloud. 13 Is that still your testimony? 14 A It is. 15 Q And isn't it true that you can see 16 clouds to the left, clouds to the right, cloud 17 below, cloud above? 18 A 19 not see 20 Q 21 them. 22 you're

(202) 234-4433 I see clouds in the background. I do what's directly below them. You do not see what's directly below Okay. 0:46 still - you're still not - still saying that they're not in a cloud.

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1 A No. I can see them clearly. I don't 2 see any effect on a cloud. The GoPro would 3 actually make it look worse and you still see 4 them. 5 Q So, you're saying that because you 6 could see them, you don't think it's getting a 7 little hazy the view of them has gotten a 8 little bit hazier

- 9 A Well, that's

- 10 Q
-- not as sharp? 11 MR. FELDMAN: Objection. 12 JUDGE RAWALD: What's that, sir? 13 MR. FELDMAN: The question is 14 argumentative. 15 JUDGE RAWALD: You're correct, sir. 16 So, the objection is sustained. Mr. 17 Bobertz, it's appropriate- he's giving testimony 18 saying this man is not going through a cloud. 19 You can say you don't believe he's 20 going through a cloud despite the fact it's hazy, 21 despite the fact this? That is not 22 argumentative. That is simply having him observe

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### 1 other things. 2 

### But the way you're phrasing the 3 

### question is, unfortunately, argumentative. so, 4 the objection is sustained. 5 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 6 

### BY MR. BOBERTZ: 7 Q 

### In your opinion, before you said that 8 he wasn't in a cloud. 9 Are you still of that same opinion? 10 Does it not look a little bit hazy to you? 11 A 

### I do not believe they're in a cloud. 12 I believe I'm looking at a cloud in the 13 

### background. Haziness could be easily at this 14 altitude

- I've had it happen to me hundreds of 15 times where if the subjects I'm pulling pull near 16 cloud level, I don't get the last part of the 17 

### video. My lens fogs up, my ringsight fogs up, 18 but my plastic glass, my goggles and my eyes see 19 clearly. 20 

### And so, what we're seeing is GoPro 21 video, not a human eye and it's shot on an angle. 22 

### I'm not trying to be argumentative.

(202)·234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 

### My honest

(202) 234-44333-98 

### 1 opinion is they are close to, but not in a cloud 2 and they pulled above. 3 Q 

### And they pulled above. Okay. 4 

### You've driven through fog, haven't 5 you? 6 A 

### I have. 7 Q 

### Isn't fog a cloud on the ground? 8 A 

### I would go along with that. 9 Q 

### Aren't there times you can see - are 10 there times when you can see -you can't see more 11 than a couple car lengths in front of you, but 12 then there's other times that you could see many, 13 many car lengths in front of you, but you're 14 still in the fog? 15 A 

### I don't know that I can agree with 16 that, because we don't have fog here in Hawaii. 17 And I've lived here for 15 years, but I'm still 18 saying what you're seeing as a cloud is in the 19 background, not below them or not encompassing 20 them, not surrounding them at all at this point. 21 Q 

### If you were driving in the fog, would 22 you drive at 110 miles an hour into the fog

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-99 1 assuming it was legal to do so and that's with 2 the normal driving speed? 3 Would you drive 110 miles into fog? 4 MR. FELDMAN: Objection to relevancy. 5 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Bobetrz, the 6 question you can ask hypotheticals of the 7 witness that are germane to his expertise. 8 Driving is not, and certainly I'm not going to 9 allow the question. So, the objection is 10 sustained. 11 MR. BOBERTZ: Understood. 12 JUDGE RAWALD: so, you can't persuade 13 the witness to have different testimony. You can 14 confront him with things that make his testimony 15 seem unbelievable to you, but you cannot persuade 16 him differently. And so, it's all about the 17 phrasing we're trying to get at here. 18 MR. BOBERTZ: Understood, Your Honor. 19 Thank you. 20 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 21 Q Mr. Sanders, do you know what a common 22 helicopter rotor blade diameter would be?

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1 A No. 2 Q You've seen helicopters? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Some helicopters operate out at the 5 airport, out at Dillingham? 6 A Not full time, but they come in and 7 out to get fuel occasionally. 8 Q Okay. 9 MR. FELDMAN: Objection to relevancy. 10 JUDGE RAWALD: Where is this going, 11 Mr. Bobertz? 12 MR. BOBERTZ: This is going to the 13 danger of other

- what we've talked some about 14 before, what might be avoidable that might be in 15 the pattern out there. 16 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. I will allow you 17 some room to maneuver here for this, but

- 18 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 19 Q 20 21 overruled. 22

(202) 234-4433 So, assume for the purposes - JUDGE RAWALD: The objection is

MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry, Your Honor.

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1 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 2 Q So, assume for the purposes at the 3 moment that it's 30 to 50 feet, does that sound 4 reasonable, the diameter of a rotor blade if it's 5 spinning? 6 A Sure. 7 Q Okay. So, if you're going 110 miles 8 an hour on course to hit the center of that and 9 you don't see it until you're 50 feet away, are 10 you going to be able to avoid it? 11 A If you're in a tandem, you're not 12 going to be able to avoid it either. You're 13 going straight down. 14 Q Thank you. 15 A With or without clouds. 16 Q Okay. So, I'm going to keep playing 17 this and try and play it slowly. 18 (Playing video.) 19 JUDGE RAWALD: And for the record, is 20 this still A32 that you're referring to? 21 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. And now, we're at 22 46 seconds.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-102

1 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 2 Q In your opinion, is the image getting 3 less clear? 4 A Absolutely. 5 Q And why do you believe that is? 6 A The camera has fallen below them and 7 there's moisture on the lens and there's moisture 8 near the cloud. 9 There's lots of moisture in the 10 tropical air here, but I don't believe looking up 11

-- you don't see - I personally see blue sky. 12 I know if I was looking straight down, 13 I'd be able to see the ground clearly and know 14 where I was and not be in any danger of landing 15 in the ocean or any of the other scenarios I've 16 heard. 17 Q So, despite the relative what 18 appears to be relative to be close proximity, how 19 far would you - do you have any estimate as far 2

### o as how far the camera is from the jumper, the 21 tandem pair right now? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 Probably about 75 feet.

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1 Q 

### And yet it's fuzzy and you're saying 2 that's because of moisture. It's not that 3 there's cloud in between the cameraman and the 4 

### tandem, it's just because of moisture. 5 A 

### He's at a level that there will be 6 

### moisture on the lens for sure, but he's also 7 

### shooting up into the sky. And the sky is

- when 8 

### the sun comes through, all of the particles that 9 

### are in the air here are going to look real soft 10 

### and diffused if you're looking up into a bright 11 

### sky. 12 

### If you look downward, you're not going 13 

### to have the same look. 14 Q 

### So, why do you see blue sky to the 15 

### left? 16 A 

### Because there's blue sky in the 17 

### background from this camera angle. Again, I'm 18 

### still not looking straight above the jumper as 19 

### well. We're at an angle in all of these. 20 

### So, we're always looking at 21 

### background, not really what the jumper is 22 experiencing straight up or straight down.

(202) 234·4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 3-104

1 Q 

### Do you see any moisture on the lens? 2 A 

### I don't not see it. 3 Q 

### Okay. 4 A 

### Yeah. I 

### can't tell. 5 Q 

### Does this appear like we're getting 6 

### closer to if not directly below, closer to 7 being directly below the jumper? And we're at 46 8 

### seconds. 9 A 

### The angle is getting steeper, because 10 they're falling away and the angle is steepening 11 out. 12 Q 

### And does that not indicate to you that 13 he has fallen through the cloud that you can see 14 above? 15 A No. I 

### think, again, you're now 150 16 feet away and you're looking through atmosphere. 17 You're at the wettest layer in the sky and you're 18 

### next to a cloud. There's moisture there. 19 There's a lot of moisture in the sky. 20 You're not looking at it with human 21 

### eyes. You're not looking at it in 3D. You're 22 looking at it pointing towards the sun, which is

(202)234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 3-105 1 defracting all of that moisture and giving you 2 that hazy look, but I see blue sky there, too. 3 Q 

### Okay. Thank you. 4 

### (Playing video.) 5 Q 

### Again, do you see any moisture on the 6 camera? 7 A 

### It's soft, for sure. 8 Q 

### It's what? 9 A It has a soft image and that's one of 10 the first clues that there is moisture on the 11 lens is that it's shooting through another layer. 12 And not just the lens, it's shooting through 13 moisture. You can see how soft it is. 14 Light on the lenses don't go out of 15 focus as much as like the ground camera is going 16 

### out of focus. When a wide angle appears out of 17 focus, it's oftentimes moisture, not focus. 18 Q 

### Playing again from

- oh, sorry. 19 

### (Playing video.) 20 Q 

### So, I've stopped at one minute. Tell 21 me what you see about layers of clouds. 22 A 

### Well, I think they're down below the

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-106 1 bottom layer, as far as I can tell in this image. 2 And this is real typical, because it's too warm 3 down low for the moisture to condense. So, 4 that's Mount Ka'ala, it's 4,000 feet, and usually 5 the clouds are three to 5,000 feet on the low end 6 and there's higher layers. 7 So to me, I would say they're below 8 the bottom layer. 9 Q Okay. So, just to be clear, so the 10 below

- what you kind of see in the horizon looks 11 like a bottom layer of clouds to you, and then 12 they're clear from there? 13 A In that direction, it does look like 14 that. 15 JUDGE RAWALD: That's at one minute 16 into the video. 17 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. 18 (Playing video.) 19 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. 20 please, Your Honor. 21 22

(202) 234-4433 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. (Pause.)

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 One moment,

(202) 234-4433

### 3-107

1 

### MR. BOBERTZ: I'm going to A33. 2 

### (Playing video.) 3 

### BY MR. BOBERTZ: 4 Q 

### So, I paused it at 30 seconds. 5 

### What do you see as far as layers of 6 clouds here, Mr. Sanders? 7 A 

### In the distance I see the tops are 8 higher than the other clouds, but they could be 9 

### considered as part of that same layer. But in 10 the middle of the frame where it looks a little 11 clearer, there's -you can start to see a little 12 bit of the three dimension to it where there are 13 lower layers. 14 Q 

### so, you would consider all this one, 15 thick layer? You'd call this multiple layers? 16 A 

### It looks multiple to me. 17 Q 

### I see. I'm playing from 30 seconds. 18 (Playing video.) 19 Q 

### So, I stopped it at 58 seconds. And 20 I believe your testimony before was he's not in a 21 cloud. 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### Yes. And so, to be clear, what we're

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### 3-108 1 looking at here is a GoPro and we're not looking 2 through his eyes. 3 

### I've had this exact experience 4 hundreds of times where my ringsight fogs and my 5 lens is capturing this image and I never lost 6 sight of the ground. 7 Q 

### And so, playing forward from 58. 8 

### (Playing video.) 9 Q 

### Do you see some moisture on the lens? 10 A 

### Yes. 11 Q 

### Okay. Very much? 12 A 

### At this angle, it's hard to tell, but, 13 yeah, there's definitely moisture on the lens. 14 Q 

### Okay. More or less than the last jump 15 we saw, if you recall? 16 A 

### I know out of all the videos, there's 17 

### one where it's, you know, a huge drop. All the 18 rest seem pretty equal. 19 Q 

### Okay. And what can you tell me about 20 the cloud layer at this point? I'm at one minute 21 and four seconds. 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### You can see the lower layer off to the

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 3-109 1 left, but where they are, that's the bottom

- 2 between there and the drop zone it's probably 3 clear. 4 Q 

### Pretty clear, right? 5 A 

### Right. 6 Q 

### Okay. Thank you. Okay. 8 : 3 8 . 7 

### (Playing video.) 8 Q 

### so, I paused it at 35 seconds. 9 What can you tell me about the cloud 10 layers there? 11 A 

### The first thing I'd like to point out 12 is how much more broken it looks from the air 13 than from the ground. 14 Q 

### I'm sorry, Mr. Sanders, I'm not asking 15 

### you that. I'm just asking about the layer. 16 A 

### Okay. There's a low

- appears to be 17 a low layer in the foreground closest to the 18 

### camera. 19 distance. 20 Q 

### 21 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 

### And then a pretty even layer in the

Thank you. (Playing video.) At zero minutes, 57 seconds, I believe

NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-110 

### 1 you testified previously not in a cloud? 2 A 

### I can't tell. When you're looking at 3 

### a GoPro, it fogs up. I have no idea. 4 Q 

### Now, you have no idea? 5 A 

### Well, I would say that he's likely to 6 

### see the ground there. His eyes - he would see 7 

### the ground. He wouldn't be obscure at all like 8 the lens would or like a ringsight would fog up. 9 Q 

### In your opinion, is he, or is he not, 10 

### in a cloud? 11 A 

### No. 12 Q 

### Thank you. And to what degree of 13 certainty do you - 14 A 

### Because I've seen that video image 15 hundreds of times on videos that I've shot where 16 I haven't even been near a cloud, but have been 17 at the level where the temperature condenses and 18 it fogs it up. 19 So, it can, literally, just fog up and 20 it's going to happen very quickly, and it's going 21 to leave very quickly as well. 22

(202) 234-4433 

### You're falling 200 feet a second.

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-44333-111 1 During that deployment, you're slowing down, but 2 you're going through a lot of altitude. It fogs 3 on and comes off very quickly. 4 Q So, tell me about the condensation on 5 this lens compared to the others. 6 A I have seen more, but I see a lot of 7 texture that is the water droplets on - 8 Q So, is your testimony that it's- what 9 appears to be one of the worst one of the 10 worser cloud entries to the untrained eye is not 11 that, it's just the condensation? 12 A I think it's very clear particularly 13 if you, like, look on the edge of the right-hand 14 said, maybe even down towards the bottom, you can 15 actually see the rain or the moisture droplets on 16 it. 17 Q Okay. 18 A This is moist, but it doesn't mean you 19 went through a cloud, it means it condensed on 20 the lens because of temperature and this happens 21 frequently. So frequently we bring a rag to wipe 22 off our lens.

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1 Q 

### Understood. Thank you. I'm going to 2 keep playing from 57 seconds. 3 (Playing video.) 4 Q 

### So, I'm now at 59 seconds. I still 5 see a lot of moisture on the lens, yet now all of 6 a sudden I see the ground clear. 7 Can you explain? 8 A 

### Yeah. And it's going to continue to 9 clear all the way down to the ground, and it will 10 clear. 11 Q 

### Thank you. 12 (Playing video.) 13 

### MR. BOBERTZ: May I have a moment, 14 Your Honor? 15 

### JUDGE RAWALD: You may. 16 

### (Pause.) 17 

### BY MR. BOBERTZ: 18 Q 

### Mr. Sanders, how high up with the 19 naked eye, if you've got decent eyes, 20/20 20 vision, can you see a skydiver in free fall? 21 A It definitely depends if the sky is 22 real bright. But in the best case scenario, I've

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### 3-113 1 seen the drogues exit

-- from 14,000 feet, I see 2 

### the white drogue. I don't see the person, if 3 that helps. 4 Q 

### Okay. Sure. Is there a point at 5 which you think you can actually see the skydiver 6 or is it -when you're looking at it

- so, you're 7 seeing the drogue first and that's mostly what 8 you're seeing besides the skydivers? 9 A 

### Yeah. The drogue is very noticeable 10 and it's big and it's bright and it's wide. It 11 

### stands out. But keep in mind they open their 12 parachute at a mile above the ground, plus 13 whatever distance you're at. 14 So, it would be like if you're looking 15 at somebody that's five-foot-six over a mile 16 away, how are they going to look? They're going 17 to look very small

- 18 Q 

### Right. 19 A 

### -- until the parachute opens. 20 Q 

### Okay. But can you so, can you 21 actually see the skydiver themselves at 14,000, 22 at 10,000 if it's -assuming it's a clear sky,

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### 1 you've got some good contrast, at what point can 2 you normally pick out a skydiver

- 3 A 

### Lots of times it's

- 4 Q 

### with the naked eye? 5 A 

### towards the end

- the end of the 6 

### jump, because you're so far away. But in the 7 right conditions, you can see bodies exiting. 8 We'll just see little dots exiting. 9 With the naked eye - 10 Q 

### Yeah. 11 A 

### -- it's possible to see the exit of a 12 jumper with or without a drogue in the right 13 conditions, but they're going to look just like a 14 speck. 15 Q 

### Right. Okay. 16 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. No further 17 questions. 18 

### JUDGE RAWALD: okay. Before we have 19 redirect, sir, I do have two follow-up questions 20 I just want to ask the gentleman that trigger 21 redirect on your part. 22 So, in comparing your testimony to

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-115 1 that of Inspector McCowan who said that basically 2 he was basing, in large part, his notion that 3 someone went through a cloud was that they would 4 appear when they weren't there before. 5 It sounds to me - and this is dealing 6 with the ground cameras now. So, the cameras 7 from the ground where TK Hinshaw took them

- 8 seems to me what you're saying is, that is not an 9 appropriate way of judging if someone has gone 10 through a cloud. 11 THE WITNESS: I would agree with that. 12 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: It's not an appropriate 14 way. 15 JUDGE RAWALD: And that's because of 16 the fact that there is a change in size from free 17 fall, to canopy, deploy, as well as limitation on 18 the camera due to the auto-focus, it's amateur 19 grade and the movement to frame the object. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. And I don't know 21 if you mentioned the

- parachutes fly pretty 22 fast. They can actually fly around an area that

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1 they were obscured in just like a wall of a 2 cloud. They can reveal themselves to where the 3 ground camera was once - 4 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So, once again, 5 kind of limitation of two dimensions on the 6 camera, which is three dimensions in real life. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And then in 9 comparing the testimony we heard from TK Hinshaw 10 which you were present for, he said he was basing 11 his conclusion that a person had gone through a 12 cloud because he couldn't see the plane, but he 13 could see the parachutist. 14 Is that an appropriate methodology to 15 decide if someone has gone through a cloud? 16 THE WITNESS: No, not at all. We 17 actually saw that in the expert witness 18 testimony. 19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And so, explain 20 to me - so, and the reason for that is because 21 why, sir? 22

(202) 234-4433 THE WITNESS: Well, the parachutes are

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1 very maneuverable. They're 2S mile an hour and 2 we're exiting upwind. So, we have the tailwind. 3 So, they can be going 40-SO miles an hour. So, 4 they can hide themselves, reveal themselves, just

s by flying around in the three-dimensional sky. 6 That does happen. 7 JUDGE RAWALD: So, the fact that we 8 can't see the plane shouldn't be considered as a 9 factor in deciding whether a person has gone 10 through a cloud layer? 11 THE WITNESS: No. And the plane's at 12 14,000 feet and it is flying forward. So, you 13 know, he's not necessarily going to be in the 14 frame at all. 1S JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Feldman, 16 I'll turn to you for redirect. 17 MR. FELDMAN: Let's go back to AS. 18 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. We '11 open up 19 the screen for you. 20 REDIRECT EXAMINATIOIN 21 BY MR. FELDMAN: 22 Q Showing you AS at six minutes, six

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### 3-118 1 seconds and zero frames in, you see a canopy 2 there, correct? 3 A 

### Yes. 4 Q 

### Can you see any bodies under that 5 canopy? 6 A No. 7 Q 

### And do you have an opinion as to why 8 you don't see the bodies? 9 A 

### They're a long ways away, for one. 10 And they could be hidden from the angle by the 11 parachute itself, just got lost. 12 Q 

### And with the quality of the camera 13 used for these videos being a consumer camera, 14 would that make it more or less likely that you 15 would be able to distinguish a body under a 16 canopy? 17 A 

### Far less likely. 18 Q 

### And would that also apply to a body in 19 free fall? 20 A 

### Yes. 21 Q 

### And does contrast affect the ability 22 to view a canopy in - a canopy in the sky?

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1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### How does it affect it? 3 A 

### There are times that we couldn't see 4 it, because it was a blue sky and a dark 5 parachute and the camera couldn't discern the 6 two. They just got lost together and it moves in 7 front of the cloud and there's a greater contrast 8 between the two images and it's real obvious. 9 Q 

### And would that also affect a body in 10 free fall being able to be seen or not seen? 11 A 

### Yes. 12 Q 

### And the size of an object, does that 13 affect your ability to view it? 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q 

### And the angle from which you're 16 viewing it affects whether or not you can see an 17 object

- 18 A 

### Absolutely. 19 Q 

### -- is that a correct statement? 20 A 

### Yes. 21 Q 

### And the focus of the camera, does that 22 affect whether or not you can see an object?

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1 A Yes. 2 Q How? 3 A Well, we've seen it there where it's 4 out of focus, all of the information just gets 5 blurred together. And when it's brought into 6 focus, there's some detail. 7 Q And these lenses have inherent

- is it 8 a correct statement that the lenses have inherent 9 flaws in these lower-end cameras? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And can you tell what flaws it would 12 have? 13 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Asked and 14 answered. Again, not necessarily a camera 15 expert. 16 JUDGE RAWALD: I'm going to allow the 17 question at this point. So, counsel, it's 18 responsive to the cross examination questions you 19 had where you were trying to confront him with 20 why he's denying certain things. 21 So, I'm going to allow him to answer 22 the question to allow him to answer within the

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### 3-121 1 normal expertise that he established so far. So, 2 the objection overruled. 3 

### THE WITNESS: Well, the objects are 4 

### absolutely critical, because we're basing this 5 

### entire evidence on something that's been 6 

### videotaped. And the lower-end lenses have less 7 elements, so they're

- they don't provide as good 8 a resolution. They can't handle the contrast as 9 well. And in most- well, actually, all consumer 10 lenses, they'll be soft in the edges. 11 A very expensive lens is going to be 12 sharp not only in the center of the frame, but 13 all the way to the edges it will remain sharp. 14 So, the objects can make a big difference in the 15 way things appear. 16 BY MR. FELDMAN: 17 Q 

### So, are you saying, then, that objects 18 if you're looking at a shot of the sky with 19 various jumpers in it, that the jumpers in the 20 center would be clearer than the jumpers in the 21 periphery of the lens? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### All things being equal, they would be

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### 3-122

1 

### sharper in the center. But if there's a cloud, 2 you know, blocking the one in the center, it may 3 

### not be true to say that. But all things being 4 equal, it would be sharper in the center. 5 Q 

### Okay. Let's go to A7. A minute three 6 in. 7 

### Is the lens in or out of focus at a 8 minute three in on A7? 9 A 

### Out of focus or moisture on the lens. 10 But since it's a ground camera, probably out of 11 focus. 12 Q 

### And then 1:04, is the lens in or out 13 of focus? 14 A 

### It's out of focus. Maybe a touch 15 closer towards focus, but it's out of focus. 16 Q 

### And at 1:04 and 21 frames, that's 17 21/30ths of a second later, is the lens in more 18 focus, or less focus? 19 A 

### More focus. 20 Q 

### We'll go to A14

- sorry. Let's just 21 back up to AS for a second. 22 Can you see the canopy in this shot?

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### 3-123

1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### Do you see any bodies in the shot? 3 A 

### No, not til six minutes and six 4 seconds. 5 Q 

### And at what angle would you estimate 6 at six minutes, six seconds the camera was from 7 the canopy that you see? 8 A 

### Somewhere in the 35 

### to 40-degree 9 

### angle. 10 Q 

### Now, let's go to A14. At five 11 minutes, 27 seconds into the video, can you see a 12 jumper in the frame? 13 A I 

### can see a dot that looks like a 14 parachute. 15 Q 

### And that would be on the left side? 16 A 

### That's correct. 17 Q 

### Can you tell if it's a jumper or a 18 parachute? 19 A I 

### would say a parachute. 20 Q 

### Now, at five minutes, 28 seconds and 21 three frames, do you see that dot? 22 A 

### No.

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### 3-124

1 Q 

### And 12 frames later at five minutes, 2 28 seconds and 15 frames, do you see the dot? 3 A 

### Yes. 4 Q 

### Do you have an opinion as to why the 5 dot disappeared? 6 A 

### Looked like there was focus issues, 7 for sure. But again, we're shooting a long ways 8 away and I don't know if it's just too far away 9 at some point and then it becomes visible as 10 well, but it looks to me like it's maybe 11 revealing itself with the focus getting sharper. 12 Q 

### If you look at the clouds to the 13 lower-third bottom center, does that help you in 14 any way to determine whether it's a focus issue? 15 I'll scrub back and forth. 16 A 

### Yeah, it's a focus issue right there, 17 unless it happened simultaneously where it flies 18 behind a layer. But it was out of focus, I can't 19 see it, and then the focus appears to get a 20 little better as the cameras move. 21 Q 

### So, does the jumper disappearing at 22 five minutes, 28 seconds, approximately, indicate

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-125 1 that the jumper was going through a cloud, or 2 other

- that there were other issues causing him 3 to disappear? 4 MR. BOBERTZ: objection. Asked and 5 answered. 6 JUDGE RAWALD: Yeah. He's made it 7 clear that it's a focus issue or possibly 8 something else, sir. 9 So, you can move on. The objection is 10 sustained. 11 MR. FELDMAN: All right. 12 BY MR. FELDMAN: 13 Q And, again, the angle at five minutes, 14 28 seconds is not straight up. 15 Is that a correct statement? 16 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Asked and 17 answered. 18 JUDGE RAWALD: He did say already it 19 was 30 to 45 degrees, sir. The objection is 20 sustained. 21 BY MR. FELDMAN: 22 Q

(202)234-4433 Let's go to 6:35 and I'd like you to

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### 3-126 1 look at the white dot below the canopy that's in 2 the center just between the middle and top-third 3 

### of the frame. And the white dot is almost 4 

### directly below it. 5 

### Do you see it there? 6 A I 

### do. 7 Q 

### Now, do you see a cloud in this shot 8 

### where the white dot is? 9 A I 

### do. 10 Q 

### And is the white dot above or below 11 the cloud? 12 A 

### Below the cloud. 13 Q 

### And let's go to 7:39. 14 

### Is that a pink or orange canopy you 15 

### see at 7:40 

### and 10 

### frames? 16 A 

### It looks as much red to me as pink or 17 

### orange. 18 Q 

### And then which way does the camera 19 

### move as I advance it from that point? 20 A 

### It panned to the left. 21 JUDGE 

### RAWALD: And, Mr. Feldman, 22 before you go on with this, I do want to make

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-127 1 sure I made the point where Mr. Bobertz said this 2 is really lay testimony as far as identifying 3 that person and trying to link it to the video. 4 I can draw my own conclusions from it. 5 The testimony of the witness was not helpful for 6 that and redirecting on that is not going to make 7 any more difference for that. 8 MR. FELDMAN: I'll withdraw this line 9 of questioning, Your Honor. 10 BY MR. FELDMAN: 11 Q I'll go to A32. We'll go to 30 12 seconds in. 13 Now, looking at this video, you 14 testified that there were multiple layers in the 15 background, correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Is it easier to see multiple layers 18 from directly above the clouds, or when they're 19 off at an angle? 20 A 21 bit. 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 I would think on an angle a little

So, has that helped you identify

NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-128 1 multiple layers in your testimony here today? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Going to A33, at 1:04 in A33, do you 4 see multiple layers in this shot at 1:04, zero 5 fraines? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And can you tell looking at this shot 8 even if there's

- appears to be clearer sky to 9 the right, exactly what TK's camera could see 10 from its angle on the ground? 11 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Speculation. 12 JUDGE RAWALD : He's asking if he can 13 with his expertise, do that. So, I want to hear 14 the answer. 15 The objection is overruled. 16 JUDGE RAWALD: Can you repeat the 17 question? 18 BY MR. FELDMAN: 19 Q Yeah. Can you tell from this shot at 20 a minute four and no frames

- zero frames, what 21 the camera on the ground that was shooting

- 22 being shot

(202)234-4433 operated by TK, could see or

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1 couldn't see? 2 A No, I can't. 3 Q And do you have an opinion as to 4 whether that camera would have a view of clouds 5 in it as it

- if it was facing this direction 6 where the jumpers were? 7 A It's likely there would be cloud in 8 the background of the shot, for sure. 9 Q And just with respect to lens fogging, 10 is there something that professionals do to keep 11 lenses from fogging up? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And what is that? 14 A You have a heated lens so the 15 temperature can't change and cool down. 16 Q And that's not available for consumer 17 cameras, to your knowledge? 18 A No. And it's only used occasionally 19 professionally. 20 Q Go to A38. Now, I'll go from A38 at 21 57 seconds and 23 frames in. 22 Do you have an opinion as to what the

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### 1 contrast is in this shot? 2 A 

### Very low. 3 Q 

### And that's because it's facing

- is 4 that because it's facing toward the ground? 5 A 

### There's a couple of reasons. I think 6 this altitude, they're not up in the bright sky 7 

### where the tandem was being found. Wherever the 8 sun is, the ground is much darker. 9 

### It's darker to begin with even if it's 10 lit up, but it may be in shadow. But you can see 11 the greens and you can see the ground there even 12 through this moisture on the GoPro video camera. 13 Again, I would say that the contrast 14 of your eyes, you can see the ground perfectly 15 clear here because it's

- first of all, for some 16 reason our skydiver goggles don't tend to fog up 17 like a lens. It's not a smooth, polished surface 18 

### that really gets cold. So, the skydiver's view 19 right here would not be this view. 20 Q 

### And does this view at 57 seconds and 21 23 frames in, can you see moisture on the lens? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### Definitely.

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### 3-131

1 Q 

### Okay. And does it look like that 2 moisture is in focus? 3 A No. 4 Q 

### Does it look like it's focusing beyond 5 the moisture? 6 A 

### Yes. And the GoPros are usually- you 7 focus more out towards infinity and they're not 8 on a real auto focus. 9 Q 

### And here at 59 seconds in, is there a 10 difference in contrast from what we just saw in 11 the previous frame? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 Q 

### And what is the difference? 14 A 

### We can see much more clearly even 15 though through the water, we can see it clear. 16 Q 

### And in this shot, would the lens 17 aperture or f-stop change from what we saw in the 18 previous shot? 19 A 

### Yeah. It's a much brighter direction 20 

### that he's facing right now. So, the f-stop of 21 the lens would stop down and give you greater 22 depth to field, which would give you some greater

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### 3-132

1 

### clarity as well. 2 Q 

### Then on a darker shot in

- 3 A 

### On a dark shot, the lens is going to 4 open up just like our eye does and focus is 5 

### really critical. So, it would go way out of 6 focus with a big opening on your iris. 7 And when it's a brighter image where 8 the sky comes in there, the auto

- iris is going 9 to stop down and give you greater clarity with 10 depth of field. 11 Q 

### Okay. And just to be clear, Hawaii is 12 an island, correct - a group of islands, correct? 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### And your circle of friends is mostly 15 on the group of islands? 16 A 

### I have a lot of friends on the 17 

### mainland. 18 Q 

### But while you're on the island, your 19 friends are here on the island with you that you 20

- with whom you ever associate, correct? 21 A 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 

### Yeah, I spend most of my time here. And as a skydiver, you need to jump

NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-133 1 somewhere, correct? 2 A Absolutely. 3 Q And you've chosen to jump at Pacific 4 Skydiving? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did your friendship with Gi Banelle in 7 any way affect the truthfulness of your testimony 8 here today? 9 A No. 10 Q And did you testify based on your 11 experience as an expert in photography and aerial 12 skydiving photography and the effects that 13 various factors would have on the accuracy of 14 images

- 15 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Asked and 16 answered. 17 JUDGE RAWALD: You can answer the 18 question which is, did you base is your 19 testimony based upon your expertise rather than 20 your friendship, sir? 21 22

(202) 234-4433 THE WITNESS: It is. JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you.

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### 3-134

1 

### So, the objection is sustained, in 2 part, with that question being allowed to be 3 asked. 4 BY MR. FELDMAN: 5 Q 

### And your being paid for your 6 appearance and your time, did that in any way 7 

### affect the answers that you gave here today? 8 A No. 9 Q 

### And you're a 

### professional in 10 skydiving, correct? 11 A 

### Yes. 12 Q 

### And you get paid for what you do as a 13 professional; is that correct? 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q 

### And typically, what do you charge an 16 hour as a free fall videographer? 17 A 

### I'musually shooting high-end projects 18 and I have a daily rate that's around a thousand 19 

### dollars a day and $500 a jump. So, it's not an 20 hourly rate, but usually it's around three or 21 $4,000 a day. 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 

### And how long does a jump take?

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1 A We do a lot of planning when it's a 2 Hollywood-type jump. So, we do one about every 3 hour, hour and a half. 4 Q so, that's approximately $500 an hour, 5 isn't it? 6 A Yes. 7 MR. FELDMAN: Nothing further, Your 8 Honor. 9 JUDGE RAWALD: Any recross based on 10 the redirect? 11 MR. BOBERTZ: Just one question on 12 recross, Your Honor. 13 RECROSS EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 15 Q I've got A38 starting at 56 seconds16 JUDGE RAWALD: Hold on one second. 17 MR. BOBERTZ: Sorry. Let me go back 18 just a little bit. 19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 20 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. Actually starting 21 at about 49 seconds, A38. 22 (Playing video.)

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1 

### BY MR. BOBERTZ: 2 Q 

### About what angle towards vertical 3 would you say the camera is looking up at that 4 point, Mr. Sanders? 5 

### JUDGE RAWALD: At which point? The 6 

### point where you stopped it at 1:02? 7 

### MR. BOBERTZ: The point where I 8 

### stopped it at 1:02. 9 

### THE WITNESS: Well, he's being swung 10 back a little bit, but, I mean, it's almost like 11 70 degrees, probably. 12 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 13 Q 

### Okay. Do you see much blue sky above 14 him? 15 A 

### No, but I think he's been swung 16 

### backwards a little bit. The canopy is out in 17 front of him here, which happens during 18 

### deployment as you're swinging back. So, he's 19 looking more forward and down than what's right 20 below him or above him. 21 Above him is out the top of the frame, 22 not the bottom.

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### 3-137

1 Q 

### All right. At 1:02 still, you still 2 think that's 70 degrees some vertical? 3 A 

### 70 or 80, yeah. 4 Q 

### Still at

- 5 A 

### Yeah. Yeah. He's not getting 6 

### underneath the canopy yet. Still behind the

- 7 see how far out

- the canopy is way out in front 8 of him. 9 Q 

### Okay. 10 JUDGE RAWALD: I don't think your 11 previous testimony was hearable because you're 12 kind of getting away from the mic, sir. 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 

### JUDGE RAWALD: so, you were saying? 15 

### THE WITNESS : You can see in the 16 deployment, that's kind of a high-performance 17 parachute which the cameramen use in a jump, but 18 it looks like it's way out in front of him. 19 so, I was basing my angle based on his 20 angle to the parachute, but the parachute and the 21 body was also at an angle, too. So, I think 22 they're looking way out in front of where up

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1 would be. 2 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. No further 3 questions. 4 JUDGE RAWALD: The witness may step 5 down and back to the

- 6 MR. FELDMAN: I have one more question 7 based on what

- 8 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 10 BY

**~R.** FELDMAN: 11 Q Moving to may I have the screen 12 again? Going to A38 at 56 seconds and seven 13 frames in, it looks like to the right there's an 14 area that's a different color. 15 Do you have an opinion of whether or 16 not that's sky there or clouds there? 17 A On this one, I actually think it 18 unless I'm losing track, I think it's actually 19 ground. And he's

- there's kind of a green color 20 that goes across the whole frame there. I think 21 that that is ground through water on a lens. 22 And, again, that's not necessarily at all wet.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-139 1 It's happening in real life to the skydiver. 2 There's lots of moisture, but our eyes 3 don't get affected by it like the camera does. 4 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you, and nothing 5 further. 6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Any recross 7 based on that question? 8 MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you. You 10 can go ahead and sit back at the table, sir. 11 (Witness excused.) 12 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman, what is 13 next? 14 MR

. FELDMAN: Your Honor, we rest. 15 However, we move to dismiss for lack of 16 jurisdiction. 17 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And as I 18 mentioned to you before, the lack of jurisdiction 19 argument is regarding the complaint issue of 20 being over $50,000, the civil penalty; is that 21 what you're talking about, sir? 22 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. The amount in

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1 controversy in this case is 55,000. And the 2 jurisdiction of this court is 50,000. 3 I do have a case that says that the 4 court
- 5 JUDGE RAWALD: That's fine, sir. Let 6 me just make sure I clear up two things. One, I 7 asked you to file motions many, many months ago 8 and we did not. I'm not going to rule on the 9 motion here without briefing by both parties on 10 the issue. 11 So, I will set a motion deadline for 12 that hearing. So, you can set that motion 13 deadline. 14 The motion will be due by

- let me 15 pull up the calendar. Your motion will be due to 16 be filed by December 29th, two weeks from today. 17 Mr. Bobertz, you will then have two 18 weeks of brief and response. So, by January 12th 19 your response to Mr. Feldman's motion regarding 20 the jurisdictional issue that will be in 21 addition to the time frame we set for the briefs. 22 Okay?

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### 3-141

1 

### So, December 29th for the initial 2 

### filing for Mr. Feldman. January 12th for the 3 response of filing for Mr. Bobertz. 4 

### MR. FELDMAN: And Your Honor will set 5 the dates for the closing arguments subsequent to 6 that motion? 7 

### JUDGE RAWALD: That

- no. No. We'll 8 talk about

- that's going to be -no, those will 9 be running concurrently because you've decided 10 that's how you want to handle this issue as 11 opposed to dealing with it before the hearing. 12 So, we're not going to derail the hearing issue 13 while we look at the jurisdictional issue. 14 So, let's see if Mr. Bobertz has any 15 sort of rebuttal then to your evidence. 16 MR. BOBERTZ: It will be a minute or 17 two, but I do have one. We'd like to recall Mr. 18 McCowan. 19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. McCowan, 20 would you take the stand, please? 21 Mr. McCowan, I remind you that you're 22 under oath.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 3-142

1 

### Mr. Bobertz, your witness. 2 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. May I have 3 the screen, Your Honor? 4 

### JUDGE RAWALD: You may. 5 

### DIRECT REBUTTAL 6 

### BY MR. BOBERTZ: 7 Q 

### So, I'm playing A38 from about 40 8 seconds. 9 (Playing video.) 10 Q 

### I paused it at 1:03. 11 

### Inspector McCowan, you've done a lot 12 of skydiving and are familiar with videos of 13 skydiving. And of course they're not through the 14 clouds. And when you're diving and you're not 15 going through the clouds, do you ever see this 16 kind of condensation on the lens? 17 18 19 

### 20 21 22 A 

### Again, I don't jump cameras that much. But looking at other people's videos when they come through that level, you will see condensation. That is where the cloud layer

- 

### he's coming out the bottom of it right that would

(202) 234-4433 

### be where you would

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 

### now. So,
see the

(202) 234-4433

### 3-143 1 condensation. 2 Q 

### So, will you see condensation when 3 you're going

- absence of a cloud, will you see 4 condensation like that? 5 A 

### Yes, you do at that particular level. 6 Q 

### Okay. 7 A 

### Not this particular level, but 8 whatever the moisture level is. 9 Q 

### Thank you. 10 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Any further questions? 11 

### MR. BOBERTZ: I have no further 12 questions. 13 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman, any cross 14 examination based upon the direct? 15 

### MR. FELDMAN: No, Your Honor. 16 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 17 

### MR. FELDMAN: It was a very good 18 answer. 19 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And I'll 20 disregard your qualitative analysis of the 21 answer. 22

(202) 234-4433 

### Okay. You can go ahead and sit down.

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-144

1 (Witness excused.) 2 JUDGE RAWALD: So, it appears, then, 3 that we have all the evidence in this case. I do 4 want to go over with the parties what we have 5 received in evidence at this time. 6 I have received all the government 7 exhibits. A1 through A56 have been put in 8 evidence. 9 Additionally, from the respondent's 10 point of view, R3, R6, R12, R14, R15, 16, 17, 18, 11 19, 20, 21, 23, 24, 25 and 26. So, those are the 12 evidence that have been admitted in the course of 13 this hearing. 14 Both parties indicated they will 15 prefer to do response to briefings rather than 16 closing arguments. 17 Is that still the case, Mr. Bobertz? 18 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman? 20 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, Your Honor. 21 I'd also move that any exhibits that 22 I've referenced in this hearing be admitted in

(202)234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 3-145

1 

### case one was omitted in the list you gave. It 

### 2 was too fast for me to verify that I had them 3 all, but I think you got the additional ones that 4 were added. 5 

### JUDGE RAWALD: R25 and R26 are the two 6 pieces of evidence that were added in the course 7 

### of the hearing. They were admitted as part of 8 the process. And so, I did account for those in 9 my list just now. 10 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 11 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And given the 12 fact that both parties want to submit briefs, let 13 me go ahead and go over the issues that I think 14 are important. I still believe the ones I 15 provide at the prehearing conference on November 16 28th, are the guiding issues of the case with one 17 addition. 18 In the first issue which regards did 19 individuals parachute through clouds, the things 20 that will be most helpful for me to hear from the 21 parties about would be the proper weight to give 22 the credibility of TK Hinshaw's testimony; the

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-146 

### 1 weight of the film shot by TK Hinshaw, what we 2 actually give that film; what weight I 

### should 3 

### give the video evidence obtained from Pacific, 4 

### specifically as we've been calling it "the GoPro 5 

### footage. n 6 

### And, also, I 

### ask the parties when 7 

### discussing the expert testimony from Mr. McCowan 8 

### and also from Mr. Sanders, please keep in mind 9 

### the administrator opinion that logic, depth and 10 

### persuasiveness are the criteria for evaluating 11 

### expert testimony as cited by 1997-9 

### Alphin 12 

### Aircraft at 12. 13 

### The second issue that's important for 14 

### me to hear from you folks on is whether 15 

### respondent is a responsible party under the 16 

### applicable regulations for the cloud issue, which 17 

### is at 14 

### CFR 105.7, 

### as well as the definitions 18 

### that are at 14 

### CFR 105.3. 

### So, explain to me why 19 

### they apply to the respondent as a company as 20 

### opposed to the parachutist or the pilot in 21 

### command. 22 The

(202) 234-4433 

### third issue would

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 

### be the

(202) 234-4433

### 3-147 1 independent contractor issue raised by the 2 defense and whether the facts have indeed met the 3 fact that they are independent contractors. And 4 if so, whether that provides any defense to any 5 sort of responsibility by the respondent here. 6 

### And fourth, if the respondent did 7 commit any violations, how should I compute the 8 appropriate civil penalty? 9 

### While I have an amount for the 10 administrator for if I found all the violations, 11 I want to understand the basis for how to get to 12 that number or how to compute a lower amount if I 13 were to find less violations or a different 14 outcome. 15 And finally, the last issue that I

- 16 that we didn't discuss before that I think is 17 important, is why 9113 applies, or does not 18 apply, in this case. 19 so, while I don't think

- as we all 20 agreed, it does not affect the ultimate civil 21 penalty if I were to find a violation, I do have 22 to find whether they violated that provision or

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-148 1 not. 2 And so, I need to hear from the 3 panties about why it applied or does not apply. 4 Okay? 5 Any question on that summary of what 6 I'm looking for? 7 Mr. Bobertz? 8 MR. BOBERTZ: You went very fast on 9 the first part about the weight. 10 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes. I'll go back. 11 MR. BOBERTZ: But if we're going to 12 get the transcript shortly, that's fine. If it's 13 going to be a while for the transcript, a little 14 bit slower repetition would be appreciated. 15 JUDGE RAWALD: sure. And so, you want 16 to hear back from the first issue? 17 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, please. 18 JUDGE RAWALD: okay. So, in looking 19 at the individuals parachuting into the clouds 20 issue, the things that are most important to me 21 to be described by the parties are the 22 credibility of TK Hinshaw's testimony; how should

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-149 

### 1 I weigh that and what weight should it get? 2 What weight to give the film shot by 3 

### TK Hinshaw, the four exhibits that we've seen 4 

### quite a bit today and over the course of the 5 

### hearing. 6 

### What weight to give the video evidence 7 

### obtained from Pacific. In other words, the GoPro 8 

### footage. 9 

### And once again, when discussing the 10 

### expert testimony of Mr. McCowan and Mr. Sanders, 11 

### just I'm asking the parties to keep in mind the 12 administrator's opinion that logic, depth and 13 

### persuasiveness are the criteria for evaluating 14 

### testimony. 15 

### And the case citation for that that I 16 have that's most recent is 1997-9 Alphin Aircraft 17 at 12 though that's stated many times throughout 18 

### the administrator's opinions. 19 Anything else, Mr. Bobertz, or is that 20 

### sufficient? 21 MR. BOBERTZ: That's sufficient. 22 Thank you, Your Honor.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-150 1 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 2 MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor, just let's 3 make sure that we didn't miss anything. The 4 second point is, is the respondent the 5 responsible party? 6 JUDGE RAWALD: Under the applicable 7 regulations, yes. So, looking at 14 CFR 105.7 8 and looking at definitions of 14 CFR 105.3, 9 explain to me whether respondent is or is not the 10 responsible party depending on your position in 11 this case. 12 MR. FELDMAN: And the next issue is 13 the independent contractor issue

- 14 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes. 15 MR. FELDMAN:

-- how they got to be 16 independent

- are they independent contractors? 17 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, did you factually 18 prove they are independent contractors as viewed 19 under the law? And if so, does that obviate them 20 from any sort of responsibility under the law? 21 MR. FELDMAN: And the next one is 22 computing the penalty and how that was computed?

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 3-151

1 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. And from 2 your point of view, if you want to offer any sort 3 of thought on computing a lower civil penalty on 4 behalf of your client if I do find a violation, I 5 will consider your arguments. 6 

### MR. FELDMAN: And then, finally, why 7 9113 does or does not apply. 8 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Absolutely. 9 

### MR. FELDMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And so, each 11 party will submit one brief by the same deadline. 12 We're not going to have response to briefing. 13 It's simply going to be one shot from each side. 14 When would be an appropriate date for 15 you to do that based upon the receipt of 16 transcript? 17 Mr. Bobertz, do you have a position? 18 

### MR. BOBERTZ: If you can give me one 19 moment to pull up my calendar? 20 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. I will note that 21 13.231(c) directs that no more than 30 days from 22 receipt of the transcript would be reasonable.

(202)234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 3-152

1 

### This is a long case. We have three 2 days of testimony. I don't mind giving you the 3 full 30 days, if that would be the best thing for 4 both parties. 5 

### MR. FELDMAN: That would be the best 6 with the holidays in here and

- 7 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Well, I don't presume 8 the transcript will be to you before the 9 holidays, quite honestly, sir. 10 

### MR

. FELDMAN: I'd like the full 30 11 days. 12 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Bobertz? 13 MR. BOBERTZ: I was doing to say I'd 14 like to get it done, but I think 15 would be 15 sufficient. 16 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. There's a lot to 17 chew on here and I also have you working on a 18 

### brief regarding jurisdiction. So, I will go 19 ahead and give the 30 days. 20 

### So, what will happen is once the 21 parties receive the transcript, I will then issue 22 an order and we will adopt a deadline, but you

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333-153 1 should of course compute for yourself when you 2 receive the transcript, that it will be 30 days. 3 But I will issue a follow-up order so you know 4 the exact deadline so there will be no confusion 5 about what the deadline for the brief will be. 6 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Any other 8 questions? 9 MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor, that's 30 10 days from receipt of the transcript? 11 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes. 12 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 13 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes. Because the 14 transcript will be useful to you in writing your 15 brief. And of course if your brief contains 16 transcript citations, that will be much more 17 useful to me than if it does not. 18 Anything else? Any other questions, 19 Mr. Feldman? 20 MR. FELDMAN: No, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Bobertz, any 22 other questions about what's going on at all?

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 3-154

1 

### MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 2 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Feldman, one 3 last chance. Any questions in general? 4 

### MR. FELDMAN: Nothing, Your Honor. 5 Thank you. Thank you for being patient. 6 

### JUDGE RAWALD: That's fine. Once the 7 deadlines for brief have passed, I will issue a 8 written decision in this matter that will be sent 9 to both parties at the address I have for you. 10 If it changes for any reason, please 11 let me know where you are so I can find you and 12 send the brief to you. Okay? 13 Last thing, then, thank you for 14 showing up and staying for this proceeding. Best 15 wishes for you, have a safe travel home, and the 16 hearing is now closed. Thank you. 17 

### (Whereupon, at 12:04 p.m. the hearing 18 was adjourned.) 19 

### 20 21 22

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### u.s 1:11,19 ultimate147:20 unable42:15 unbelievable99:15 underneath23:1743:1

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## z 150:7,8 26 18:1759:16 144:11 113:10 zero46:8 109:22 118:1 14,00019:5 113:1,21 26:0939:12 wife70:20 128:4,20 117:12 26:4039:14 wind6:2 15:21,22 16:2 zone 109:2 14:0027:3 2725:2 56:16 123:11 Neal R. Grossand Co., Inc. (202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com2826:1 50:852:22 55:11 58:1060:21 123:20 124:2,22 125:14 28th 145:16 2925:15 29:3241:16 29:5039:12 29th 140:16141:1

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Neal R. Grossand Co., Inc. Washington DC Volume3 167

www.nealrgross.com3-168 C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Pacific International Skydiving

Before: USDOT/OH

Date: 12-15-16

Place: Honolulu, HI

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

(202)234-4433 Court Reporter

NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701