**Note: The output shown below is from the Communication**

**Ac cess Realtime Translation** **(CA RT) sy** **stem used in the On** **- Board Circulation and Seating Subcommittee meeting #** **10 and is generally** 

**unedited. T** **he CA RT sy** **stem was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and**  **persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real -** **time and av** **ailable to the public on the internet during the meeting. UNITED STA** **TES AC** **CESS BOA RD**  **RA IL VEHICLES A** **CCESS A DVISORY COMMITTEE**  **ON -** **BO ARD CIRCULA** **TION A ND SEA** **TING MTG # 10**  **SUBCOMMITTEE TELECONFERENCE**

Wednesday, November 12, 2014

1:00 p.m.

Staff Location: United States Access Board

1331 F Street, NW, Suite 1000 Washington, DC 20004

Reporter: Sandra GartrellATTENDING VIA PHONE

BLAIR SLAUGHTER, CHAIR BILLY ALTOM DENNIS CANNON MARILYN GOLDEN DAVID MARTINEZ FRANCIS MASCARENHAS DON MEBIUS JONATHAN MICHEL MICHAEL PORTER STEVE ROMAN KEN SHIOTANI MELISSA SHURLAND GARY TALBOT JOSE VEGA AARON WEINSTEIN

STAFF MELISSA ANDERSON PAUL BEATTY JIM PECHTP-R-O

-C

-E-E-D-I-N-G

-S PAUL BEATTY: Good afternoon. This is Paul Beatty speaking. Welcome to the 10th meeting of the onboard circulation and seating subcommittee.

As you know, anyone may participate in subcommittee discussions. No time for public comment has been scheduled for this two

-hour call.

It appears it looks like we have the chatbox, at least at one point I had the chatbox. So we will be monitoring the chatbox for those participants who

are only using CART to participate and if you desire to raise a question or make a statement, please put it in the chatbox and I will communicate it to the subcommittee chair.

When speaking on the line, please remember to

use your name when speaking. As a reminder, our next meeting is currently scheduled for December 10, which is a Wednesday.

All support staff are working from remote locationsbecauseour conferencephone system is still having problems. I know Melissa is on the line and there is Melissa Anderson and Jim Pecht. That is all from Access Board staff.

Those on conference call, in a random order,give us your full name and the organization you are

representing. And, Sandra, please indicate whether you can hear them. We will just assume you can hear them, unless you say otherwise.

ROBERT CARLSON: Robert Carlson with Community Transportation Association.

PAUL BEATTY: Thank you, Robert. BILLY ALTOM: Billy Altom. PAUL BEATTY: Okay. GARY TALBOT: This is Gary Talbot from Amtrak. PAUL BEATTY: Thanks, Gary.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. PAUL BEATTY: Thanks, Blair.

JONATHAN MICHEL: Jonathan Michel from RailPlan International.

PAUL BEATTY: Okay, Jonathan. You seem a little quiet. Hopefully that is just my phone.

DAVID MARTINEZ: David Martinez and Francis Mascarenhas from Metro in Chicago.

MELISSA SHURLAND: Melissa Shurland. AARON WEINSTEIN: Aaron Weinstein from San Francisco BART.MICHAEL PORTER: Michael Porter, Amtrak. PAUL BEATTY: Thank you, Michael. MARILYN GOLDEN: Marilyn Golden, Disability Rights Education and Defense.

PAUL BEATTY: Thank you, Marilyn. KENNETH SHIOTANI: Ken Shiotani, National Disability Rights Network.

DON MEBIUS: Don Mebius with LTK. STEVE ROMAN: Steve Roman with LTK. PAUL BEATTY: Thank you, Steve. JOSE VEGA: Jose Vega, National Disability Rights Network.

DENNIS CANNON: Dennis Cannon, National Disability Rights Network. And I'm going to have to leave early because of a doctor's appointment.

PAUL BEATTY: Okay. And someone else was speaking the same time with Dennis.

JOSE VEGA: Jose Vega of MTA Long Island Railroad.

PAUL BEATTY: Thank you, Jose. JOE VEGA: You're welcome. PAUL BEATTY: I think that is everybody onmy list except for Sid Goldstein.

We are ready to proceed and I will turn themeeting over to the chair, Blair Slaughter. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Hello, everyone. I didn't hear Marilyn Golden.

PAUL BEATTY: Yeah, she is on. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Oh, she is. Okay. I hope everyone is doing well.

First order of business is to approve the agenda. Anyonehasanyquestions,please letme know, otherwise I will consider it approved. I like the silence. Since Marilyn is on the line, she indicated that shehas to leave early for an appointment aswell. So what I would like to do is go to Item 4 and look at the images provided by BART and that sprung out of the last meeting where we were discussing the issue of the clear floor space across transit cars and doors located across from each other.

And so Aaron Weinstein sent these in to help us with our discussion.

So if everyone scrolls down to that, everyone

can see that. I'm trying to zoom it in myself.

What we had initially talked about or I originally written was 44" clear across the car with the ideathatthatwouldguaranteeadegreeofmobilityfreedom getting on and off the car. SowhatAaronhasdone is laidthis intoa car. There are three conditions that are shown. The first is just a clear 44 push straight across the car with a stanchion on the edge of that. And that creates, looks like, a 32.6

-inch pinch point there. And then he shows one where the pathway is 44" but it is sort of a chevron shape and swoops to one side, but then that opens up the hinge point between the closest objectand 40.2",which seemsa lotmorenavigablethan the 44" pushed across the car.

And the third one, which I believe is closer to what BART is working on now, shows right in the middle. I guess that is the idea that gives you amore flexible space. Again, you can't push 44" across the car, but the pathways on all the quadrants around that stanchion are larger.

So the idea was to facilitate, hopefully,

some discussion and come to some closure onhowwewant to handle the clear space across transit cars with opposing doors and at the same time accommodate ambulatory folks who need something to hang onto and maybe not create choke points of folks congregating too heavily.I know the gentleman from Metro in D.C. had

indicated they had some real success in removing or otherwise handling stanchions that open things up and help the congestion.

So with that, I will open it up for discussion.

DENNIS CANNON: Let me, right off the bat, say that that third one is terrible. And the reason for that is

-- well, the reason you need

-- single one is not horrible, but not real good either.

The problem you have typically in a subway

car, you have openings side and center platform. So you are basically moving from one door getting on and getting off of the other one frequently all the time. That stanchion in the middle, while it looks nice like there is a path to get from the door to the place you

are supposed to sit with a wheelchair, the reality is that in a crowded situationwhatpeople inwheelchairs typically do is move into the door and stay there. They haven't gotten a lot of maneuverability. This is a nice idea if the car is empty.

But that stanchion in the middle means that you have to get on one side and you are getting off the next stop. To get around that with crowds andpeople clustered around the center pole and people

hanging on there, you need to get places for people to hang on out of the pathway.

So just inside the door on both sides is a great place. If there is a windscreen there at the end of the windscreen is fine. D.C. Metro has a lot of their 6,000 cars that have handrails right on the wall just inside the door. And they get people who are outside can actually reach the handrail before they can even board the car. And it gets them around the corner, around from the doorway so they are not in the doorway.

This stanchion in the middle is going to be a cluster point.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Might be worth scrolling down. My apologies to Jose from Long Island. I did get all the uploads. The Long Island M3 car, which I erroneously referred to as a subway car andnotbeing in the New York environs, are dark outside. You

assume it is inatunnel,therefore itmustbea subway.

So my apologies for being

-- the entry commuter car --

JOE VEGA: Blair, there is no need to apologize. I accept it 100 percent. You are right;it is a tunnel environment and doesn't apply to subway

car. But we have a lot of underground rail systems within a tunnel environment.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: These are not what we normally think of as subway cars.

If you look at the doorway here on the M3, by parting doors, there is a horizontal handrail on either side, on the windscreen, and you don't get a stanchion until you are well inside the car.

GARY TALBOT: Blair, can I say something on that? BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Absolutely.

GARY TALBOT: I can launch off of what Dennis just said. Two things; we need to get away from the immediate door opening; and, to Dennis'point, I think the second and third option to me just would be brutal because of where that pole is located.

The other thing is too I don't think folks really realize thatmany of us require a handhold. We need some type of stanchion to grab onto to stay in our chair.

The horizontal ones to me that are shown in the first M3 picture, a great idea but in a subway environment, I think that would be the worst possibleplace you can be, to be a little further into the car

and that's where the vertical one would come in.

I agree with Dennis. The windscreen usually helpsa lot. If you canget just insidethewindscreen and if you need to grab onto something you can. That is where I think the first drawing, the first illustration to me would be a better solution.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Gary, to that point, again looking at the M3, the vertical stanchion is well within the car, but the horizontal looks like it can be useful for someone who is ambulatory and stepping into the car.

We had that discussion as well and the worry has been having too many handrails near the door and that couldbea conflict. Peoplemay congregatethere andnot get out of theway. Alsowhen you are stepping into the car having something to hold onto could be critical for somebody who is ambulatory. So I think we have to strike some type of good balance here.

If this M3 car were

-- let's pretend for a moment it was a subway car, once you got into the car a little ways, you would have a vertical stanchion, but you still have the horizontals for other folks.

I see the point and I wondered about thematerial from Aaron. When you have people around the

stanchion, assume there are four or five folks, at least four people holding onto that stanchion, that immediately bites into any open space that you have for mobility.

MARILYN GOLDEN: I just want to take off from Dennis and Gary's comments. I'm actually in transit myself to a medical appointment that I was unable to reschedule. So I'm not on top of the photos.

I did look at them before I left and I agree with Dennis that none of them are really acceptable. If the role of our committee is to think toward future, the best possible accessibility and not hamper it, especially at this early stage, at this early idea stage -- we know that Washington Metro has had their well times reduced by not causing, you know, congregation of folks in these open areas at either end of the car. And, as Dennis was saying, the windscreens.

There was also a discussion of a handrail on the side of the car as soon as you get in. Gary maybe didn't like that one. Maybe you can reply, Gary, if I understood you right afterwards.

But our point is no pulls in that open area.And, again, I'm not on top of any of the photos. I

would certainly not want to say one of them is okay. They didn't strike me as -- I, personally, thought we did reach consensusatthe lastmeeting. MarshaMazz, who is also not able to be here today at all, I think she is in training, spoke very well to the multiple issues that surround this problem.

But we do want to have stanchions. It is not an issue of wheelchair users against other riders because people with disabilities also need stanchions. But we have to get them out of the flow

area in that open area at the end of the cars, which I believe we reached consensus on last time.

This is a very important issue to the disability community that is becoming very controversial in at least one geographical area where I happen to live in in Northern California where BART is. We see these poles as a big problem.

GARY TALBOT: My only comment on the first one, we maintain that 44" clear space adjacent to it

so you can get in and out of the car. The other two examples are really problematic. I agree with everything you said. It is a tough deal. It is not wheelchair users versus ambulatory folks who have ahandhold, but if you put a horizontal handhold there

that is where people will have to be.

ROBERT CARLSON: They have to move for the person coming in with a wheelchair. My general policy, once I see you at the door, I'm coming on and they have to step back, out of the way. And if they

are leaning up against the handrail, it well just make the handrail accessible.

The point is, those handrails by the door are essentialbecauseyounever can relyonanactual level boarding situationwhereyouarenotgoingtoneed some kind of leverage in order to get over the threshold into the car.

People are generally going to have to move. It is a crowded car. People have to move to accommodate a person with a wheelchair.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: If you could take a moment and look in the matrix. There is Note 6

-C and that is where I added this wording to try to address some of that. Railing intended as boarding aids that project into the clear door opening should terminate

no lower than 34" from the floor. This is to address

concern that handrail or stanchions close to the door would encourage congregating near the door.Handrails critical for safe boarding. There was also a concern that I recall that if you had a stanchion, something that goes from the floorup, that it iswithin the clear door opening that you sort of encumbered the clear door opening. So I added the 34" in there. So it keeps it out of the

-- keeping it above the range of hitting it in the wheelchair but leaves it with a handhold to step into.

Doesn't mean that someone couldn't stand there and hold the handhold too. These are the very annoying soft issues that I am not sure we can completely solve with mechanical devices and not create another problem.

On Amtrak I have experienced

-- and it only

seems to be on the train going to New York where I am getting off in Philadelphia. The folks going to New York will crowd right against the door when the door opens. And I looked at a fellow one day and I said, "You know, you want to go to New York and I want to go to Philadelphia and you're not going to New York and I don't care unless you get out of the way." He stepped aside and let us off the train. That is just one of those moments.

And I think that is the phenomena

-- one ofthe things we are struggling with is how passengers

are behaving when they get on the car.

To some extent you can manage that with physical devices and that is the conversation, but my worry is somewhere in there we have to strike a balance. Forty-four inches is getting back to that notion of being clear across the car. My original thinking on that was if we have 44" vestibules on an intercity car or regular commuter car, those go all the way across the car. There is nothing that should be hidden across the car. Not that you would go in there and sit in the vestibule. But the idea was to not put anything in that path. If it worked for intercity car, that should be sort of a minimum for a high turnover transit car.

So sounds like to me what I'm hearing that we need to hold tight to the 44" clear across the car and let the chips fall where it may.

Does anyone from the industry, from LTK or something like that or Long Island have any thoughts on that?AARONWEINSTEIN: Maybe itmakes sense forme to speak to this, unless there is someone from LongIsland who wants to weigh in. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Sounds like you're up, Aaron. AARON WEINSTEIN: Okay. For the benefit of thosewhowerenotonearlier calls, Idowantto repeat

a little bit on how we got to the idea of having a pole somewhere in the vestibule area and what steps we have taken to address the needs ofpeoplewith disabilities in regards to that.

So we have started our outreach about four years ago on this project to define our new fleet design and had done a lot of outreach to accessibility organizations as a component of that.

What we were hearing is a lot of people get stuck in the middle of a vestibule without something to hold onto, including people with some types of disabilities. And we were also hearing that for others having a vertical pole in the vestibule is problematic because it effects the maneuverability. So we were trying to see if we couldn't figure something out that addressed both needs.

When we did put a vertical pole right in the middle of the vestibule, we did a survey of over 500 senior citizens and over 900 people with disabilitiesand we found that there was 72 percent support for the

vertical pole.

That being said, it was obviously serving a lot of people who wanted something to hold onto as the trainacceleratesanddeceleratesand itaddressesthe current sort of gap that we have now because we don't have a vertical pole.

On the same hand, we -- or on the other hand, we did hear from, especially constituents who use wheelchairs and blind constituents, that they were concerned about the pole. So we have been trying to modify the design to address the concerns while still retaining thebenefits for folkswho feel the handhold in that location is important.

We did examine moving handholds to other locations and I know that has come up on a number of phone calls. Whynoteliminatethatverticalpoleand put vertical poles at the corners of longitudinal seats near the doors. And we have looked at that and

are planning to actually test that as an alternative and remove that pole and we are not planning that test for a couple of years but we will be involving the disability community in trying it both ways.

The reason we did not put our full stock inthat idea is it really doesn't address the initial

complaint we had about someone who is smack in the middle of the vestibule without something to hold onto. What we found in operation is there are many

cases where the trains, at least the BART trains, are very crowded in the peak periods and people do get stuck in the middle of the vestibules and can't reach anything overhead and it is an issue for them.

So we have been trying to meet the needs of all the different diverse groups and even within the disability community, we found there is quite a bit of diversity.

So A and B in the materials we provided were an attempt to try to find something that might meet all needs.

When we have a 46" accessible path that is almost as wide as the door itself, I didn't put that dimension in, but our doors are 54". So it would be a path that is almost four feet wide and almost the width of the door itself.

I certainly understand the reservations folks have about allowing a pole in that area, but I did want to at least explain what our thought processwas. We started with the pole in the middle and

then moved towards offsetting it from the middle, further away from the wheelchair area, again, to try to address the needs of people who use wheelchairs but also retain the pole feature for folks that need something to hold onto. And that wouldn't include folks who have, you know, arthritis or certain other conditions where it is important to have something to grab onto.

I hope that information is helpful. SID GOLDSTEIN: Can I jump in here. This is Sid Goldstein from Transit Access Report.

Either for Mr. Slaughter or Mr. Weinstein, do I understand correctly the word "vestibule" has a completely different meaning from the BART context than what it has in an intercity rail context?

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I have to be careful in using "vestibule." Thevestibule is really something that only occurs in commuter cars and intercity cars and end of the car. Sometimes in the middle we will use that term as well.

But it is generally an area that is used purely for getting on and off the train and not a spacethat would ever be occupied. And in the process of

trying to develop this clear floor space on transit cars, if appropriate, we define 44" for the vestibule for intercity as sort of the minimum. That seemed a logical number to start with. So that was really

-- pointofdepartureto say 44" isan intercity vestibuleandthat it isa clearpathallthewayacross the car.And now let's talk about transit cars and issue of clear path across the car. More critical becauseofthe frequencyof stops,the factthatpeople

are standing or sitting in spaces, you know, defining that space, that minimum space becomes ever more critical.

It sounds like

-- and I would like more comment from someoftheother industry folksorpeople who are close to it, that if we stuck with the 44" projection across the space, that there is always the potential that a particular provider is going to have a condition that is if you are on top of things and reviewing things as the designs are developing, that in a particular locality folks may decide something works for them.

And we don't know within the context of therules and the guidelines how you deal with that. But

at the end of the day we have to get to something that isgoingtowork inmost situationsandthen if itneeds to go to an equivalent facilitation for certain

services or regions, maybe that is not inappropriate.

The problem is obviously every city, every provider's conditions are somewhat different and very much the same. How dowe address that? I don't know. What works in San Francisco might not work in New York City, for sure.

STEVEROMAN: The trends in thenortheast for rapid transit is getting away from putting the stanchions in the center of the doorway area, mostly because that is where the people congregate when they get on the train. They have a tendency not to move to the doorway. And the authorities see they are leaving a lot of unhappy folks on the platform when they see the empty space in between the doorways.

They provide vertical stanchions. NCCP provides handrails projecting down from the ceiling in the aisles away from the doorway areas so people can have something to hang on to. But for the most part they are doing away with the stanchions in the center of the doorway areas.AARON WEINSTEIN: Again, I did want to

mention there has been the notion that a vertical stanchion serves as a magnet and I think that is kind of what you are referring to.

STEVE ROMAN: Right. AARON WEINSTEIN: We don't currently have vertical stanchions on our roughly 70 cars at BART. And we get incredible congestion in the doorway and really the samephenomenon you are talking aboutwhere people don't tuck into the center of the car andpeople are standing in that middle vestibule and that is without the stanchion.

So I think there is a magnet for that vestibule that is independent of this issue of the vertical stanchion. The best understanding we have of it is under crowded conditions. A lot of people want to be close to an exit because they are fearful that they won't be able to make their way there when the time comes and people space themselves out depending on how long a trip they are taking.

So folks taking a longer trip may be more willingtotuck in,whereas folkstakinga shortertrip want to make sure they have a closer path to an exit. And that seems to be what is driving the bunching inthat area. Again, that bunching seems to happen

regardless of what kinds of hardware is there.

STEVE ROMAN: Right. It doesn't eliminate it completely. They still have a problem with the bunching there. And, you're right, for people going

one or two stops, they are not going to go away from the doorway.

AARON WEINSTEIN: For us, the clearest thinking we can get from the issue is that we just need to greatly expand capacity. We set a goal to increase the number of cars in our fleet by about 50 percent to provide relief on the whole issue.

SID GOLDSTEIN: I'm still not getting it about the use of terminology. My understanding earlier

-- in earlier sessions and my understanding from regulations, when we use the term "vestibule," the regulatory issue or the accessibility issue has to dowithmaking the right angle turn from avestibule into the coach of the car.

Sowhat I'm asking is, is the term "vestibule" being used in these discussions in two totally different meanings? Is the use of vestibule by BART in this conversation today unique to BART?

(Simultaneous Discussion)DENNIS CANNON: ...the end of the car

originally and we didn't think of those things in writing the regs between doors on subway cars being vestibules, but the concept is similar.

So, you're right, we probably should be using the

-- should not be using the term "vestibule" and talking about door area. If you have two doors, one

on each side of the car, as some of these photographs show, and you have a fairly wide windscreen on both sidesofthedoor,youhavea relativelynarrowopening on the side of the car. So, in a sense, it is very much like a vestibule.

And if the wheelchair space is down the aisle

somewhere, yeah, you have to make the same kind of

maneuver as you would in a vestibule in the end of an intracity rail car.

But the issue here is not the turning issue; the issue is getting on the car and basically going off to the side because most subway systems have both center and side platforms. The idea is to get across the opening without having to mow down passengers.

And Bob is correct, passengersmove but there are some cases where it is very difficult and takes time.The center stanchion, you're right, the

experience

-- and I ride Metro all the time in D.C. People congregate around the door anyway because they don't want to be left. They want to be able to get off if they are getting off at the next stop.

So the stanchion is not the driver

necessarily but it does contribute to some extent.

In the case of BART, if you askpeoplewhether they like

-- you show them the center pole and you ask them if they like it they will probably say yes and you might get a very large number of people who use it. The question is not whether they like it; the question is whether there is a better or at least an equivalent orientation of grab handles, bar, whatever you want to call them, around that area that would do just as well.

So if you show somebody a center stanchion in the car and you ask them about it, I'm sure they would probably say, "yes, it is a good idea," but they are not in the wheelchair and they are not thinking about going across the car.

If you show them other configurations at the

same time, like the ones here atMetro -- I complainedabout Metro for years but I also happen to think they

are doing a pretty good job. And in this case with

a lot of the newer cars, starting with the 6000, they have done a much better job.

I think if people actually saw the difference between a center pole and these other kinds of configurations, they wouldn't be so happy to say, "yeah, that is a good idea." If you do a test of something and you only show them without a pole and with a pole, that is not necessarily a very good test of the configuration, unless you show them other configurations simultaneously. And I know that is a big testingproblem and theprogram thatwillprobably not happen very often.

Be careful about saying it when you show them the center pole. Seventy

-five percent of the people like it because they didn't have anything else to do.

MARILYN GOLDEN: I'm going to have to leave. I appreciate the industry statement that they are getting away from poles in that area at all. And I'm interested in the fact that Washington Metro has done this and has not -- not only (inaudible) a problem but has defended that divide.

So if we go away from keeping that area clearor it looks like we are going to, I would request that

we don't resolve it today at all but we have a further chance to consider it.

Because we would certainly be unhappy to see anything in that clear area. I'm sorry I have to sign off. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Marilyn, thank you. I don't think the gentleman from D.C. Metro is on today, but I will see if I can get in touch with him and get

some information on what they have done in a diagram to lookat. Andtoavoidgetting intoadesignprocess here, it looks as if

-- this could be catch 22 as well

-- in that space if there were four stanchions that were relatively close to the seats or three stanchions so you are not invading the wheelchair space, that you could create places for people to collect and still not effect the clear path across the car or the path to accessible seating space.

Yes, it adds some encumbrances but that may be one way of managing it, other than a single pole.

And, Aaron, I guess your single pole has the four poles around it as well for people to hold onto. It seems to be pretty common these days.

So I think that Marilyn's point

-- I don'twant to close this out, but I would like to get more

information to understand what D.C. Metro has done. Again, write this so it achieves what we need it to achieve from an accessibility standpoint, but gives the authorities some flexibility in the design. But I can see where in a crowded subway when you start to make the other than straight pathway across, you are going to have problems.

The onlyperson in the diagram, andwe are all guilty of this, is the person in the wheelchair, apply people around the stanchions to see what it does to the space to talk about it in the next go

-around.

Does anyone else have any other thoughts on this? Iwashopingwe couldnail the lid down on this. But it sounds like to me that the majority voice right

now is toward maintaining the 44" across with nothing in that extruded space across the car. I think we should look into D.C. Metro stuff before we nail that down. Anyone else have any other thought on that?

MELISSA ANDERSON: Gary, do you know if a report has been written up on the work that BART has been doing on trying the different configurations or surveys.AARON WEINSTEIN: Hi, Melissa. The answer

is, yes, we have reports published online. If it suits you I can send links.

MELISSA ANDERSON: That would be really great if you can do that. I think that would help everybody to look at that, what the research results

were and how it was the

-- kind of the methodology of the research also. If you could send that to RVAAC.

Also I've forgotten that I ride the D.C.Metro to work every day and I just happen to get on one of their brand new cars that was totally empty a couple ofmonthsagoand Itook somepictures. I justemailed them to Blair, get an actual design drawing. But we

can certainly share those pictures after the meeting.

DENNIS CANNON: Are you referring to the 7000 or 6000 cars?

MELISSA ANDERSON: I believe it is the 7000 cars, but I don't actually know. Does that make sense? I didn't know they were online yet. It was a car I was not on before and it was completely different.

DENNIS CANNON: The 7000s are not in service yet. MELISSA ANDERSON: Didn't they link them inrandomly to make sure they were working? <<<: They are running them on tests but no passengers are on them yet.

MELISSA ANDERSON: Then I would say it is probably a 6000 car. It illustrates the clear passageway between the doorways and nothing to hang onto. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: There is a very interesting

--

<<<: There is a horizontal bar. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: There is horizontal bar added on there and the vertical handholds on the door for assistingboarding. But they don't go all theway to the floor, which is nice. That is interesting to

see. Let me see if I can contact Glenn and see if we can get any diagrams from them.

KENNETH SHIOTANI: Just a question for the BART people. Are the research you have done surveys of questions like Dennis was referring to, or is it just sort of observational research on how people actually use the cars in practice?

AARON WEINSTEIN: Ken, the answer is it is both. We did do some observational research on twooccasions with the pole. In some cases we offset the

pole for part of those observations to create a wider, accessible path. And, generally speaking, the results were pretty good.

That being said, it wasn't revenue service. It was sort of a staged condition where we use people hanging onto the pole and they generally moved out of the way. KENNETH SHIOTANI: On their best behavior.

AARON WEINSTEIN: Yes. So we did intend to do a fuller test in revenue service in 2016. And addressing the point made earlier, we will be testing bothwith the centerpole and alsowith the centerpole eliminated in favor of corner poles that are attached to seats near doors.

KENNETH SHIOTANI: Okay. DON MEBIUS: In addition to the pole in the middle, I have become a very strong proponent -- Blair, just indicatedwhatWMATAhaddone with some non

-full length vertical poles in the entranceway. Having the need to use crutches for the last week and a half, maneuvering into a vestibule, getting in and being able to grab something to help pull me in and get out of the way, that is a huge plus.DENNIS CANNON: In trying to keep things

clear, let's try not to use the word "vestibule." Let's try to avoid that.

DON MEBIUS: I stand corrected. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Let me see if we can get information from Metro to see what they are doing. And I had lost the wording in the matrix notes because last time I

-- path does not have a straight line across the doorways intended to ensure people in mobility devices can quicklymove onto thevehiclebut at the same time not overdefining vertical stanchions to the point that ambulatory is compromised.

So I think I will take that back out. That is why I left it highlighted in the text because it

was not resolved before. But if we can make a promise to ourselves to nail this one down in the next call, that would be awesome. I have a funny feeling if I have to predict that we will go for the 44" minimum and have to come up with other alternative ways of providing, you know, stanchions, or handholds outside of that space.

I think at the end of the day, it is probably the easiest solution and maybe it is the lesser of all the evils at the end of the day.I think, Aaron, what you said about the

stanchions and the posts near the seats, that

-- let

me throw this one out. If you have a stanchion near a seat and let's say it is an ambulatory person has moved in and, boy, those handrails are really important, having that stanchion right by that seat could be a real benefit for folks that need some assistancebecause now they have got a stanchion right by their seat to pull themselves up to get out. So that could be the best of both worlds. Maybe stew on that a little bit between now and the next meeting.

Okay. Unless someone else has something else to say about this, ifwe couldmove on. Any other thoughts? Okay.

I did add to the matrix a note about seat handles and railings. And that

-- it is plugged in the matrix and it becomes Note Number 22. So I put down some words to try to get a grip on that.

So what it says is handrails, handholds or similarly functional devices should be included on passenger seats. The purpose of such devices are, A, provide a discrete firmpoint forpassengers to safely navigate to their seat through other amenities while the train is in motion; B, provide a safe conditionfor standeeswhen other rails loops and stanchions are

unavailable and; C, assist passengers from standing up on their seat.

Depending on the mode vertical stanchions shouldbe included as a -- at every other seat. Modes not subject to standee condition as part of normal operations where rotating or chargeable seats are not required to include vertical stanchions. I know that's a lot to ingest all at once. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Iwillpoint it to Dennis firstbecause I know Dennis was working on these kinds of things for the buses. DENNIS CANNON: Right. That is the issue that

-- what we said, there should be a bar, handrail

across the back of the seat so people standing in the aisle can grab onto it but also people standing up in moving trains. And there are reclining seats which have bars across the back of each individual seat too. And in the buses we had said in alternate, actually it is not necessarily every other seat. It is like alternate from one side to the other and skipping a seat, if that makes sense.

Say the first seat on the right would have abar across the back and attached to the bar would have

a vertical stanchion going up to the ceiling.

The second seat on the left would have a similar vertical grab bar and then the fourth seat on the right would have so on. It would go back and forth. Alternate from one side to the other. This is actually the configuration that is in a lot of the Metro cars. And it is very useful to have that vertical stanchion right there that you can grab onto, plus the seat back itself.

It wouldn't across

-- the stanchion going from the seat to the ceiling, wouldn't apply to reclining seat or rotating seats or any of those seats from forward facing to rear facing, the way they do on some Amtrak cars. I don't know if that is still the model. Some of them you look back from the front of the seat andback of the seat and change directions. So that wouldn't apply. It would only apply to fixed seats. That was in the proposed bus rule and, as I say, it is also being used in many of the Metro cars. I don't know about the new ones, but I think the 6000s have that and even some of the older ones inMetro have it.STEVE ROMAN: Dennis, you're right. It has

been the configuration for the most part that has been in most of the recent rapid transit and light rail acquisitions where they have the handrails either across the back or with stanchions going up to the ceiling off of them or they have stanchions and handrails going off the ceiling so people can have something to grab onto.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: From the intercity side, from the Amtrak side, one of the concerns we will have from adding railings is

-- and, again, that is why I put the blurb in there about the modes.

If you think about what happens on a bus

versus -- or even some transit cars, maybe some of the rapid rail things, you can get jostled around quite

abit. Wherewhen you get to heavier rail, intercity, that sort of thing, we hope we don't jostle folks around quite as much. That kind of intense handholds everywhere is reduced. So that was a concern I had in trying to come up with some clever way of drafting this. And that is why I included A, B and C to try to make sure what the railing or device was intended to do. And including handrails or handholds or similarly functional devices and I put that in therebecause I didn'twant topreclude any creative designs

that would let you mesh the device into the seat design. Not to belittle our folks in transit, on the intracity side. We are trying to sell something. It is a little more than a transit ride and that is why the tickets cost more. So we don't want to look like a transit vehicle.

There again I thought there is a functional need for how we best address that.

One of the things we have heard in the past andwithour rotatingand reclining seats is,you know, people will reach out and grab the seat in front of them to start up. The need to do that is lessened if the seats are further apart, which we tend to have, largely in long distance trains. So reaching way out there may not work, but the space configuration is a little more accommodating to move out of the seat.

If you are in a very tight area where you are sitting closely, taking the first effort to stand up can be tough and having a handrail or something can be very beneficial.

DENNIS CANNON: I'm going have to leave so I just wanted to add one quick little thought.

Riding in Amtrak, I know there is kind of anoverhead rail that is sort of part of the luggage or

whatever rack up at the top and so forth.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Yes. DENNIS CANNON: My biggest problem sitting in the seat and anytime someone comes back from the cafe car with a Coke or hot coffee, I kind of hold my breath as they are passing by me because people are often very close to dumping everything on me. So I think it would be very good to have some handrails, other than the one right up above over your head that is hard to reach, so people can at least steady.

I have seen people go by and put their hand

on the back of each of the seats as they go by, which

can be a little disconcerting if you are laying back trying to sleep and someone puts their hand there. That is one of the reasons I think it is important in intercity rail.

I have to go and I will leave you with that thought and let you folks think whatever.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Thanks, Dennis. Okay. Does anyone have any comments on the way I wrote that up? I'm glad to entertain changes.

STEVEROMAN: Blair,what youhave down there pretty much covers the vast range of different typesof devices that could be used. And just a quick note

on commuter rail. At least on Long Island on M7 and MetroNorth onM8, theyhave short grabbars inbetween the headrest to help people get up out of their seats. New Jersey Transit have corner grab handles on their seats to help people going through the aisle. So you pretty much are covered on every mode.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Steve, the onlyplace I can imagine it could be a little dicey is with reclining seats. If they don't know how the recline works, if it is a -- where the seat back itself moves into your space in front, some of those. If you grab most of

our seats today, if you pull on them enough, they will recline, which could really upset the person that is using the seat in front of you.

So, again, I don't know. I think we have to have something in there for sure.And one of the things that sort of pointed it out to us years ago when everyone got on the train with a newspaper is that the corners of the seats were turning black from the newsprint coming from people's hands onto the corner of the seats. And we are looking at the seats saying,

"Why are the seats getting dirty?" Becausepeople need something to hold onto. Duh.STEVE ROMAN: It is a fine line what you can

do, especially on an intracity. So you don't want it to encroach on an already narrow aisle.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Right, right. The nice thing about this is we are talking about future orders and we know we need a different basic seat configuration for intercity. So I think ifwe can get this somewhat flexible, and again, that is why I included the words "or similarly functional devices,"

so that leaves it open for some creative but workforce intercity cars as well as everyone else.

In some cases it makes sense to put a railing because it is just logicalandyouhavea seatand folks

are on it for 45 minutes or so, other situations that is not the way to go.

Some people, to Dennis' point, cannot reach the railing because they are not tall enough or they can't reach, cannotphysically get their arm up there. Having somethingatthehandrailheightorthereabouts on the back of a seat, seems very logical.

If no one has any trouble with the wording that I have got there, I will let that stand and we will

-- when we put this all in one before it goes forward

-- there it is. If someone comes up withsomething they think is an issue, please let me know

and I'll add it to it for a comment for the next meeting. I'm sure our friends at the Access Board will wordsmith this stuff so it actually makes sense.

Okay. While we are right here on Note 22, if

we could look right above it onNote 21, there hasbeen this discussion for a while about semi

-permanently coupled or articulated vehicles having accessible seating areaswith no accessible restrooms, if you can easily get to the accessible restrooms in the adjoining vehicle or couplet, however you want to think about that.

One of the things that Dennis found out in talking to Linda Martin at the FRA and we looked back at this, the statutes intercity defined asAmtrak, you must have a restroom in each car. If you have accessible seating, you have an accessible restroom in the coaches, otherwise, if you have one you must haveonethat isaccessible inthe caseof, say,adiner or something like that.

Anyway, I thought that that concept was valuable and there are a lot of things that are coming about now that didn't exist when the statutes weregenerated. So I didn't want to lose that as an

opportunity for other modes. So I added to this and I signed it in the statute, because intercity these days, despite it saying Amtrak, because of changes that may not always be the case, I added to the statement, "This does not eliminate the possibility of a car builder or Amtrak" and I should put "or other provider for applying for equivalent facilitation." Because the same rules apply, if you can show it is equivalent or better, or you create a better condition. Maybe you have a really nice accessible restroom and it is bigger and it is more efficient to have it in one vehicle as opposed to two and you can have a nice pathway, then the burden is still back on the manufacturer or the provider to prove that equivalent facilitation.

Okay. Quick look for the agenda. Okay. All right. Looks like the list, once we got away from the door areas, was moving back through to the agenda.

If you look at Note Number 9, what I added in there

-- because there was some conversation, streetcars and replica and rehabilitated cars and how do you define those as far as size or capacity orwhatever. What I added in parenthesis, industry

comments or recommendations are requested to generate a valid capacity and/or vehicle size. This should include recommendations for loading definition such

as normal crush loading, et cetera, and we can go from that if everyone is okay with it.

KENNETH SHIOTANI: Just a quick question. Who determines the industry heritage streetcars or is that not what they use?

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Ken, I'm going to point at Steve, because he is close to a lot of those things.

STEVE ROMAN: What is the right term? I'm sorry, Blair. I was distracted by something else.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: You were multitasking Steve. STEVE ROMAN: That is it.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Note Number 9 in the matrix, Ken had a question about the proper term. We mentioned replica and rehabilitated cars. So is the right term heritage cars?

Does a -- for Amtrak the heritage car is an old car we inherited from the previous railroads. In

a transit situation, is a heritage car a vehicle that may be old or is it one that is made to look like anold vehicle? STEVE ROMAN: Made to look like an old vehicle or they also call them historical.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Okay. STEVE ROMAN: And it really only applies to the streetcars because most of the

-- light rail is relatively new, but rapid transit you don't get many old restored rapid transit cars. When they are used up, they are used up.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: So historical or heritage? STEVE ROMAN: Steve: Correct. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Okay. Ken, thanks for pointing it out. My apologies for going backwards. I started at the bottom of the list. If we can go to Note Number 6. Obviously we have been talking about that a lot today, in 6C where I have defined the issue of railings intendedasboardingsaidsand Iaddedthat they shouldterminateno lowerthan 34" fromthe floor, is that

-- everyone think that is a good thing to leave in there? The idea was that it took away any worries

overthehandrailsof impeding someone'sentrancewith a wheelchair.

KENNETH SHIOTANI: I think all our wheelchair users have gone off to meetings. I don'tknow if the measurement is the right measurement.

That is obviously the concern, is to have the clear space. But I think Marilyn, Gary and Dennis all have left the call today.

ROBERT CARLSON: I'm Bob. I'm here. KENNETH SHIOTANI: Sorry. ROBERT CARLSON: You know, part of the idea is that one's feet is always out in front of you. Anything that would impede the turning radius or sitting area close to the floor is always a problem. The idea of terminating railings above a certain height is an important consideration. And 34" is typically above the height of any desk so that knees would be included in that height. I believe that in most cases even like kitchen counters are like 32/33" high. The idea is to have enough room to get your knees under and not banging into it.

My biggest pet peeves about desk at work, I have to set them up on a block about 3⁄4".

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: The 34" came from the architectural side where you have definition protrusions from it to the clear aisleway. I just tapped that number. It wouldn't preclude you from grabbing it. If you were using that to help yourboarding, you would still be in your reach range, but

it shouldn't hit anything like the armrest of your chair or anything like that.

ROBERT CARLSON: Right. Anyone standing, unless they were exceedingly short themselves, would still be able to reach up to 34".

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Okay. If we are okay we will leave that as it is. I think that addresses the concerns all the way around.

STEVE ROMAN: Can we change "railings" to "vertical grab rails"? What you intended, correct?

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Yes. STEVE ROMAN: Because railings are typically horizontal.

<<<: Yes, I would agree with that. JONATHAN MICHEL: A comment about the no lower than 34". I was looking at the new 7000 Metro cars pictures and it looks like the railings is underneath the seat pan or they are welded on there

or there ismaybe a fixingpoint and that can'tbemore than 2 feet. So I'm justwondering if there 34"might be

-- I understand might be a little high.

STEVE ROMAN: I think these grab rails that Blair is referring to are strictly in the doorway,exiting and entering the cars. Is that correct? BLAIR SLAUGHTER: That is correct. STEVE ROMAN: And the stanchions you are talking about are mounted underneath the seat, the longitudinal seats. They are in the cone area of the car, not the doorway area.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: As long as they are not intruding on the 32" clearpathway, it isnot an issue. And for the side doors, I don't think we will ever

see -- well, you always have the 32" minimum pathway and there is no going over to that.

But even if you had a door that was, say, 54

or 60" wide, I think the thought was that if you are boarding in these crunch conditions, having something protruding into the wheelchair path could be a nuisance at best, and maybe worse. And, again, the offset would take care of it and you still have the handrail for ambulatory and to assist topull yourself in with a wheelchair, if that works.

I know Gary has said in the past in getting

carswhere it is not levelboarding,being able to grab the vehicle to assist himself in is very handy.

Okay. So we are going to change railings to vertical handholds? Handhold or handrails? What doyou want to call that? <<<: Handholds. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Note number 3. We had a lot of conversation about the end opening on transit

car because of the operator space and narrow doorway. I included a note there, a question so we can hit it.

Should we leave this visual, that is if the aisle length is available up to the cab, then 30" minimum would apply...

I think in the reg it has a similar type provision, if the path exist, if the vehicle design allows that, then you must have a pathway that will let you get through. And the 30", from what I

understand, is really driven by the need, the vehicle dimension and the need to have

-- to not overencumber the cab windows and sight lines and things like that.

Okay. To leave it provisional and I will write it up that way.

STEVE ROMAN: I think it should be left "provisional."

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I will write that up and we will have the opportunity, obviously, to agree as a subcommittee to push this forward. And if there is anything that comes up between now and us doing that,we will consider it for sure. Okay. I think Ihave covered everything that

was in the matrix that was not all ready dealt with.

Okay. Anyonehave anything else theywant to bring up today or have we lost too many folks?

ROBERT CARLSON: I have nothing more. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Okay, Bob. Okay. We are set for the next meeting, which is on December 10. Conversation about the January meeting shifting a day or so, one way or the other, but I don't know the details on that.

MELISSA ANDERSON: We need to shift the meeting in January. The 14th actually falls on one of the days of our board meetings. So instead of meeting on January 14, we would switch the call to January 15.

Anyone have any objections to doing that? ROBERT CARLSON: I don't. MELISSA ANDERSON: So from Wednesday the 14th to Thursday the 15th?

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I don'thave aproblemwith it, Melissa. Why don't we plan on doing that. I assume Carl is still listening.

MELISSA ANDERSON: Since Marilyn and Dennisarenothere,we as a staff can shoot an email. Dennis

and Marilyn left and anyone else? Gary left?

<<<: Gary left. MELISSA ANDERSON: I can't think of anyone else and we can shoot them an email and make sure it is okay with them.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: One of the things we have not talked about

-- and I think we are now at the original issues list. I had gone back through the list. Does anyone know of anything that we have missed? I thinkwe capturedwhatwe needed to capture in this committee, but I know that we had the big list and the subcommittees.

Is there anything that anyone is aware of that has slipped through the cracks that we need to pick up in this committee? Then does theAccess Board have anything about that?

MELISSAANDERSON: I think we need to get all the subcommittee chairs together and go through the list and see if everyone agrees everything is covered

or we have some overlap, just to make sure we are not missing anything. Paul and I will talk about that.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Iwanted tomake sure there was no gaping wounds in what we were doing. I wentback and I think you could argue what committee is

doing what, but I think everything is pretty well covered. For this subcommittee, one of the hot topics that we need to pick up again and finalize is how we

aregoingto lineuptheverticalmovement. And Ihave got all the notes for that to redraft that.

So what I will propose, I will clean up the matrix. I think the holdout on the matrix will be around the entrance areas and the clear space across on the transit cars, which I think we are just going

-- we will have to come to some point of reasonable compromise. But Ithink,as I saidbefore, that the notion of just pushing 44" across the car is not a bad idea at the end of the day. And, Aaron, no offense to BART, but I think we will have to have some conversation about that.

We will get some drawings of what Metro is doing and see if it makes sense.

And, again, keep in mind we are talking about

cars that are going tobebought in a few years. There is opportunity in the time frame to sort outwhatworks best and do some testing and things. I think at the end of the day, understanding what happens, justwatching on D.C. Metro of folks getting in and off the

train, anything you do to disrupt thepath on aheavily loaded train can make their plight that much worse in trying to get off on the other side to the point that Dennis made before.

It is bad enough

-- I get on Metro and if I'm going two or three stops, I'm as guilty as anyone else; I don't want to get too deep in the train because getting people to get out of the way so you can get off the train can become quite the chore. And I think everyone has made stops they didn't intend to make as a result of that. Maybe we need to start teaching children at kindergarten how to ride the subway, because that is what it all comes down to. Anything you really needed to know you should have learned in kindergarten, as far as getting along with folks.

MELISSA ANDERSON: I think a lot can boil down to educating the riders. Metro makes a point of telling everybody to move to the center of the car and they do fairly wellmost of the time, not all the time.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Does everyone remember the little song when you were a kid, "the wheels on the bus goes round and round." Remember what the driver on the bus said? "Move on back."(Chorus of Laughter) MELISSA ANDERSON: There we go. We have a new theme song.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I think that was kindergarten.

MELISSA ANDERSON: On the issue of the vertical stanchions, it may be something

-- because I can see the point from both directions and I think there is a lot of feelings in both directions and it may be that in the report you address the benefits and pitfalls of each and leave it up to Access Board when we put up another set of proposed rules we go to industry and ask questions of them and riders on their experiences and designs. And we can get that information laterandbasedonnational comment,maybe make some decisions.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I think the greatest challenge is defining things enough so if someone does even the minimum, then we are better, but not precluding creative situations in the future.

We have seen already with some of the well

-intended things that have come out with the statutes and the regs, the thinking of the day was perfectly logical but it boxed us in in the realityof the future. That is the biggest struggle; making sure we achieve accessibility but we don't eliminate accessibility in the process in the future.

MELISSA ANDERSON: We definitely don't want to do that.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: We look atwhat Dennis said about the (inaudible) syndrome,which is there for one

nomore than twopositions in any one car for intercity

so you get one in every car because it is logic cap. But if you are traveling with someone you are out of luck. If you have multiple people riding, but it was written toprevent a negative thing from occurring and what happens it prevents a positive thing from occurring and no one intended that unintended consequences.

MELISSA ANDERSON: You had time left did you want to talk about the (inaudible) space?

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Yes. I'm glad you said that because I would have skipped right over that. Melissa, thank you, so much.

There was a question from the last meeting about service animalsbecause the notes said allow for some overlap of the service animal space with otherspaces. Andtoaddressthat,there isadiagram. Get

back to the right document here.

There is a diagram at thevery end that shows, just hypothetical layout that shows two accessible spaces and where service animals might occur. There is space allowed for them and this doesn't assume they will be sleeping under the seat. A seat design may well allow overlap there aswell. What this does show is to say the upper seating position where that is the new 34 x 54, I think that is right. Sorry if I'm incorrect.

Part of what drives that big dimension is maneuverability to get into the space. So you could have

-- this is shown a 6" overlap of the service animal into that space, what that would look like. And then in the lower condition where the animalmight be against the wall, which is where some folks prefer to have them so their tail doesn't get stepped on, is the same condition as shown. That is just to consider how that might look in this case. There is also a transverse position shown for the service animal as well as parallel conditions against the single seats.

But the point was do we allow some overlap, or as I misspelled here "overlape". I should tryspell check before I send it out. My apologies. So any thoughts on allowing for overlap? This could include

-- we have a new definition for overlap of accessible space by fixed objects we redefine that as well. So that could apply possibly to the service animal space as well.

ROBERT CARLSON: Blair, I think the overlapping of areas is so very specific to a particular

-- what is overlapping? What it would probably need is more discussion before we could say, yes, we will allow this overlap.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Okay. ROBERT CARLSON: I mean, we wouldn't want to have overlapping in service animals and aisles.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Right. Yes, well, that

-- ROBERT CARLSON: That is one absurd example, but it is the kind of thing youneed to try to identify.

<<<: What is and isn't able to be combined or allowed to be multiple use kind of area.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Any other thoughts on that? Let me ask the question, since you brought it up, Bob. What would you do

-- and maybe it changesthe allowable overlap, but what would be defined as

the sort of "no man's land" or do we decrease those? If there is an overlap allowed by a fixed object that is already in the regs, that is okay, whatever that dimension is and look at the different condition of the overlap of the clear seating?

<<<: There is a certain amount of maneuverability of a full size, like a Labrador service dog to be on the floor and partially under the seat in front of him. So you don't necessarily need to have an exact width. We will jump into whatever space that is there, if it is possible to do, or if the person he is with will encourage it.

The other thing, I have seen a lot of service animals like lying on the feet, so the footrest of the people they are with. That is a close relationship

so that in that case is an acceptable situation. And it was not necessarily driven by the available space. It was just the immediacy of the comfort.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: The way the Note 20 reads right now is service animals space may be overlapped by fixed objects, by 6" x 12" high and 12" by 16" high. Service animal may overlap defined floor space by a maximum of 6" longitudinally and transversely.ROBERT CARLSON: Those kind of numbers would

apply, I think, or reasonable from my perspective of service animal. Other people may have a different opinion on that, who are using them. But that kind of clear area like a seat being able to be over the top of where a service animal might be trying to be specific without being too specific is the problem in this particular situation.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Right. The hope was, Bob, that we would have, rather than having the vast areas of almost unused space that really is not practical nor really needed, that it would give some leeway. But I didn't want to leave it

-- we saw what happened before when we had the clear floor space defined, that is what you got. And suddenly that is all you had for maneuvering and everything else. It is part of what drove 54 or 59" for maneuvering because then you have a guaranteed floor space for maneuvering.

The thinking was, okay, some of that space is consumed while the person is maneuvering. And once everyone is settled and the dog lays down or whatever, who is to say they wouldn't overlap that space that was used for maneuvering. And maneuver back over again because he is going to get up when it is timeto go. The point was we have enough definition that

we ensure thatwe get enough space and don't leave that to chance but try to give it some maneuverability.

The best thing to do is to mock this up and try it out and see how a dog will nestle down, a dog

or service pony, whatever you might be traveling with these days.

ROBERT CARLSON: We have some in

-house service animals we work with. All we need is some seating area to

--

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: To mock that up. That would be ideal.

Melissa, let me ask you the question. What is going to be a good way of managing now that we have thrown some numbers in it?

MELISSA ANDERSON: I think if you write up a proposed solution and it gives people an opportunity to comment on it. And I suspect Dennis and maybe some others would have some insight in the reality of the situation.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Okay. MELISSA ANDERSON: Kind of based on common sense. If you put something together itshouldn't

-- get people comment. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Okay. Any other thoughts on service animals?

It is interesting we are sort of breaking new ground here, even defining the space that should be allowed for animals and transportation. So I think

-- whatever we do, we are doing more than has been done but we have to make sure it is enough.

MELISSA ANDERSON: I think this is also an

area where we need a fair amount of public comment to actually come up with the right answer.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I think there are some of these things that maybe they have not done in a formal way. It would be really handy to spend some of the FRA's R&D money to mock up some of these things and sort them out.

MELISSA ANDERSON: You have the Access Board's full support.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I am all for spending the money. MELISSA ANDERSON: We don't have any.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: But I have had indication from some of the folks at the FRA there is some available funding to do some research on some of thesethings and we are not talking about bank breaking

earthshattering research. We are talking about pretty basic stuff here, and building mockups and trying them out and see what works. You can honestly say what ends up going into the proposed rulemaking is based on facts, tested facts, versus what we think.

Okay. I will write something up on that for consideration and correct my misspellings as well and I think it would probably be good to try to plug in some portion that indicates what the overlap of the vertical conditions would mean to Labrador retriever size animal.

MELISSA ANDERSON: I have one other issue. I realize our next meeting is scheduled for December 10,butwehave an internal conflict for that date too. That is on aWednesday. Is there any objectionmoving it to December 11, which is a Thursday?

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Originally we were always targeting Thursdays but I think something had come up that pushed this December date.

MELISSA ANDERSON: We put some on Wednesdays because we were trying to get more participation but

we have not gotten any additional participation even after changing dates.BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I'm okay. I have a CPR

class that runs. I may have to leave before we get to the fun stuff. The last 30 minutes that overlaps into this, but that is okay.

ROBERT CARLSON: I personally have no problem with the 11th.

MELISSA ANDERSON: I think Paul and I will both be out that day. I will be off and our office staff will be busy.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: On the 10th or 11? MELISSA ANDERSON: On the 10th. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Melissa, same thing as the other date; if you can run itpast the folks that left, thatwouldbe goodbecause I don't thinkwe arehearing any disagreement from anyone else here.

MELISSA ANDERSON: Okay. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Anyone else have any

concerns? Feel we are off to the weeds? We are making good progress? Everyone scared to death or frustrated? Any thoughts?

<<<: Good job, Blair. <<<: Yeah, good job, the matrix is looking really good. Makes sense, despite the typos.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I will run a grammar checkbecause I sawothergrammaticalerrorsonthereaswell

as I was reading through the notes.

Anyone from the railroads have any lingering

concerns or things that they are really worried about in what we are talking about so far?

JOE VEGA: I have no concerns at this point. If anything comesup later, I can always talkwith you.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Okay. Jose, I appreciate it. Long Island, you guyshavebeenveryvocal and involved and I really appreciate that. Is the gentleman on from Metro in Chicago.

DAVID MARTINEZ: Yes, Dave Martinez here. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Any thoughts from the great Midwest?

DAVID MARTINEZ: Francis and I were talking

-- Frances Mascarenhas is also here with

me -- and currently we do not have any comments for you, Blair.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Yeah, take a close look and if there is anything that worries you take an opportunity to

-- heard from the left coast and the right coast but not in the middle.

DAVID MARTINEZ: Absolutely. Willcertainly do that. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Wewill look for sanity and

reason from the middle of the country. How is that?

<<<: Nobody in this country has got to be in the center.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I think we all would be better off in the middle.

I don't have anything else. Anyone from the Access Board have any thoughts? About to finish up 10 minutes early.

MELISSA ANDERSON: We're good. BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Okay. I feel we are missing something. Well, if there is nothing else, if there is amotion to adjourn, we will call it today.

<<<: Thank you, Blair. PAUL BEATTY: Okay. Operator that concludes our call.