UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

IN THE MATTER OF 

SCHUMAN AVIATION 

COMPANY LTD, 

Respondent. 

Thursday, 

December 4, 2014 

Courtroom 8 

FDMS NO. 

FAA-2013-1080 

U.S. District Court House 

300 Ala Moana Blvd. 

Honolulu, Hawaii 

1 

The above-entitled matter came on for 

hearing, pursuant to notice, at 9:04 a.m. 

BEFORE: THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN, 

Administrative Law Judge 

(202) 234-4433 

RECEIVED 

DEC 2 4 2014 

HEARING DOCKET 

ORIGINAL 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant 

DON BOBERTZ, ESQ. 

of: Federal Aviation Administration 

Western-Pacific Region 

Office of Regional Counsel 

AWP-7.7 

P.O. Box 92007 

Los Angeles, CA 90009-2007 

(310) 725-3454 

don.bobertz®faa.gov 

On Behalf of the Respondent 

CHRISTOPHER D. FERRARA, ESQ. 

3555 Harding Avenue 

Suite 2F 

Honolulu, HI 96816 

(808) 522-1660 

chris®ferraralawhawaii.com 

NEAL R. GROSS 

2 

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.(;; QNI.!Lt:II~ 

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

Joseph Monfort 

Kyle Bartler 

Edward Santa Elena 

Gustav R. Schuman 

Joseph Monfort 

(On Rebuttal) 

Nathan Dickinson 

(On Rebuttal) 

EXHIBITS 

Administrator: 

A-1 

A-2 

A-3 

A-4 

A-5 

A-6 

A-7 

A-8 

A-9 

A-10 

9 34 60 

66 70 

77 113 

83 131 129 

133 146 

138 153 

(Exhibit A-7 judicial notice taken) 

(202) 234-4433 

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61 

134 

154 

MARK RECD 

13/14 

18/--

18/20 

24/25 

24/27 

29/30 

30/--

30/32 

30/32 

30/32 

(202) 234-4433 
4 

1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (9:04a.m.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: The case of Schuman 

4 Aviation Limited, FAA Docket 2013-1080. 

5 Counsel, do you want to identify 

6 yourself for the record, please. 

7 MR. BOBERTZ: Don Bobertz for the FAA 

8 Administrator, Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir. 

10 MR. FERRARA: Christopher Ferrara on 

11 behalf of Schuman Aviation. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Would you spell your 

13 last name, please. 

14 MR. FERRARA: I'm sorry? 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Spell your last name, 

16 please. 

17 MR. FERRARA: F-e-double r-a-r-a. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just briefly. Normally, 

19 my schedule is we'll take a break around 10:30. 

20 Another one about noon for lunch, If we go that 

21 long, we'll take a break about 2:00, 2:30, and 

22 then I try to finish up at 6:3 0. We should be out 

(202) 234-4433 

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5 

1 of the courthouse by 5:00 o'clock as the CSOs 

2 typically go on overtime, and I've talked to the 

3 clerk, and they just don't have anybody here 

4 after 5:00. 

5 What I'm going to ask you as we go 

6 through the hearing, if the court reporter raises 

7 his hand, that's kind of a signal that he needs 

8 help spelling something. At a convenient time, 

9 just stop and help the court reporter with 

10 spelling. 

11 From my standpoint, I'm willing to 

12 seal parts of the entire record, documents, 

13 evidence, the transcript, or anything else, if 

14 necessary. Please review your exhibits and make 

15 sure -- I don't like to see personal identifying 

16 information in the record. That'd be dates of 

17 birth, home phone numbers, home addresses, any of 

18 that. If there's financial information that's 

19 put ln as a part of the record, that may 

20 adversely affect your client, feel free to ask me 

21 to seal that part of the record. I do this 

22 routinely. 

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1 I also carry a large black magic 

2 marker. I know that we inadvertently, sometimes, 

3 put things in the record, and I'm perfectly 

4 willing to redact things. In this environment, my 

5 personal feeling is that we don't have any 

6 business putting personal information in the 

7 record. Everything we do normally goes on the 

8 Internet, which means if we inadvertently put a 

9 home phone number on there, it's on the Internet 

10 for the whole word to see. 

11 I've got a hearing disability, so if 

12 I ask you to repeat something, don't take it 

13 personally. It's just I literally can't hear. 

14 The acoustics are such that I'm going 

15 to ask you to keep your voice up. In the hearings 

16 we had earlier in the week, the reporter had some 

17 difficulty hearing parts of it. So stay near a 

18 mike or keep your voice up. 

19 I'm going to ask for only a digital 

20 copy of the transcript. If you want a hard copy, 

21 you know, just talk with the court reporter and 

22 arrange that. 

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7 

1 As to any exhibits, I'm not wedded to 

2 any particular methodology, just so long as the 

3 Respondent and the FAA don't use the same 

4 numerations. 

5 What I typically do with the exhibit 

6 number is I'll put ID, in pencil, above it when 

7 it's offered, and when it's introduced, I'll line 

8 through that, and put the date. That's a double9 check for me to make sure that that's happened. 

10 So when the record comes out, don't, you know, 

11 don't wonder where all those markings came from. 

12 They typically come from me. 

13 Mr. Bobertz, did you want to make an 

14 opening statement? 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. Briefly, Your Honor. 

16 Thank you. The evidence in this case will show 

17 that Schuman Aviation conducted approximately 24 

18 round trip commuter flights to an airport for 

19 which he lacked authority to conduct commuter 

20 operations, and that when FAA inspectors 

21 requested records from Schuman Aviation regarding 

22 the flights, Mr. Schuman initially failed to 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 comply. The FAA will call aviation safety 

2 inspectors Joe Monfort, who conducted the 

3 investigation, and Kyle Bartler who accompanied 

4 Inspector Monfort during the records request for 

5 Mr. Schuman. 

6 Thank you, Your Honor. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Ferrara, you want 

8 to make an opening now or do you want to reserve? 

9 MR. FERRARA: I'll reserve, Your Honor. 

1 0 Thank you . 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so you know, Mr. 

12 Ferrara, I tend to be somewhat informal. It is a 

13 formal administrati\e hearing. I tend to be a 

14 little more informal than I'm sure some of the 

15 people in black robes that you've appeared in 

16 front of. But so Mr. Bobertz, do you want to call 

17 your first witness. 

18 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. The 

19 Administrator calls Aviation Safety Inspector Joe 

20 Monfort. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, do you want to 

22 approach. Stand and raise your right hand. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 Mr. Bobertz, you gave Mr. Ferrara your 

2 exhibit packet, did you not? 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: I will do that now. I 

4 think it -- I don't think -- everything's been, I 

5 believe, an item of proof that he's previously 

6 seen. Let me get your stack. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: While you're doing 

8 that, I'll swear the witness. Raise your right 

9 hand. 

1 0 WHEREUPON, 

11 JOSEPH MONFORT 

12 WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS AND HAVING FIRST BEEN 

13 DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS 

14 FOLLOWS: 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. State 

16 your full name and spell your first and last 

17 name. 

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. My name is 

19 Joseph Monfort. I spell that J-o-s-e-p-h M-o-n-f20 o-r-t. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

2 Q Thank you, Your Honor. Good morning, 

3 Inspector Monfort. Can you please tell me where 

4 you're employed. 

5 A Yes, sir. I'm employed at the 

6 Honolulu Flight Standards District Office. 

7 Q And what is your position there? 

8 A I'm an aviation safety inspector. 

9 Q And how long have you been employed 

10 there? 

11 A Approximately five and a half years. 

12 

13 Q Can you briefly describe your job 

14 duties. 

15 A My duties vary from day to day, but 

16 typically I have oversight of general aviation 

17 here in the islands of --

18 MR. FERRARA: Your Honor, excuse me. 

19 Could I have the witness speak a little closer to 

20 the mike for me. 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. 

22 MR. FERRARA: Thank you. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I'm an 

2 inspector for the Federal Aviation Administration 

3 here in Oahu, and I have oversight of general 

4 aviation activities, from accidents to 

5 certification. 

6 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

7 Q And as part of your duties, in 

8 surveillance, do you conduct surveillance of 

9 or do your inspection duties include inspection 

10 of Schuman Aviation? 

11 A At the time, sir, I was the principal 

12 operations inspector for Schuman Aviation, and we 

13 routinely conduct surveillance of all 135 

14 operations. 

15 Q And did you conduct surveillance or 

16 inspection regarding flights around, in September 

17 2012? 

18 A Yes, sir. I did. 

19 Q And can you tell me about that. 

20 A Sir, on September 1 7ch, we were 

21 notified in our office that there was commuter 

22 operations conducted by Schuman Aviation and the 

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1 Kona Airport. I reviewed the files for Mr. 

2 Schuman, verified that he did not have the 

3 operation specifications, Charlie 070 to conduct 

4 commuter operations in to Kona. Me and Kyle went 

5 over to Mr. Schuman's office--

6 Q I'm sorry. You and Kyle 

7 A Oh. Kyle Bartler. Inspector Bartler 

8 Q Okay. 

9 A proceeded over to Mr. Schuman's 

10 office and we inquired to the fact of those 

11 commuter operations. 

12 Q Okay. Do you recall how you found out 

13 about those commuter operations? 

14 A Yes, sir. When I came back from a 

15 personal emergency, I was told by Mr. or 

16 Inspector Edward Santa Elena, that there was a 

17 possibility that Schuman Aviation was conducting 

18 commuter operations for Mokulele Airlines into 

19 Kona. 

20 Q Okay. So then you and Inspector 

21 Bartler, you said you went over to Schuman 

22 Aviation? 

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1 A Yes, sir. We went over in the G-Car 

2 that morning, I think around 8:00 o'clock in the 

3 morning. 

4 Q Okay. And then what happened? 

5 A We went into Mr. Schuman's office. We 

6 started to talk to him about the commuter 

7 operations and he denied doing commuter 

8 operations. He said he was doing on-demand 

9 charter, and he could do as many as he wanted, as 

10 often as he wanted. 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, may I 

12 approach? 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: I have what's been marked 

15 for identification purposes as Administrator's 

16 Exhibit A-1. 

17 (Administrator's Exhibit A-1 

18 marked for identification) 

19 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

20 Q Inspector Monfort, do you recognize 

21 that document? 

22 A Yes, sir. I do. This is a operations 

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14 

1 specifications, Charlie 070, that was issued to 

2 Schuman Aviation as of the date of September 1 7'h, 

3 2012. 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I'd offer 

5 Administrator's Exhibit A-1 into evidence. 

6 MR. FERRARA: No objection. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Administrator' sExhibit 

8 A-1 for identification is received into evidence 

9 as Administrator's Exhibit A-1. 

10 (Administratcr's Exhibit A-1, 

11 previously marked for 

12 identification, was received in 

13 evidence) 

14 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

15 Q Inspector Monfort, earlier you 

16 mentioned that Schuman didn't have the authority 

17 to, in this particular operations specification 

18 C070, to fly, I believe you said, to Kona. Can 

19 you show me how you reached that conclusion in 

20 this document. 

21 A Yes. Under operation specification 

22 Charlie 070, page two, there's a list of airport 

(202) 234·4433 

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1 cities authorized to conduct commuter operations 

2 and Kona is not listed on that page. 

3 Q Thank you. So let's pick back up at 

4 when you and Inspector Bartler went over to 

5 Schuman Aviation. So you drove over there and 

6 then what happened? 

7 A We were sitting in front of his desk, 

8 and we mentioned that he could not conduct 

9 commuter operations into Kona. He disagreed with 

10 us. And then we asked to see his maintenance 

11 logs, daily flight logs. At that point in time, 

12 Mr. Schuman said, no, I don't think so. 

13 Me and Kyle then said: Are you sure 

14 that's what you want to do? He says: Yeah, I 

15 don't think so, and he backed away from his desk. 

16 At that point in time, we got up and we walked 

17 out of the office. It was a very short meeting. 

18 Q Did you have any conversation about 

19 why it was -- you were saying it wasn't okay and 

20 he said it was okay, he thought he could do what 

21 he was doing? 

22 A Mr. Schuman was under the impression 

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1 that he can do on-demand operations or charter 

2 operations from Mokulele Airlines and he believed 

3 that he could do that as often as he liked. 

4 Q So then you asked for the records and 

5 he said no, and you left? 

6 A Pretty much, that's it. Yes, sir. 

7 Q And then what happened? 

8 A I returned to my office. I talked to 

9 my front-line supervisor at the time, which is 

10 Charles Cantu, and he told me to contact Don 

11 Bobertz because the denial of records was 

12 actually more grievous than the operation at that 

13 time. So I contacted attorney, Mr. Don Bobertz, 

14 and he said give him 30 minutes, and after that 

15 we're going to look at possibly emergency 

16 suspension pending compliance. And two hours 

17 later, Mr. Schuman called me, after contacting 

18 his lawyer, and he said the records would be made 

19 available to us. 

20 Q So you did get the 

21 eventually? 

22 A We did, two hours later. 

(202) 234-4433 

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records, 

(202) 234-4433 
17 

1 Q Okay. You got the -- you said -- did 

2 you actually get the records two hours later, or 

3 did he just say, two hours later, that he would 

4 get them to you? 

5 A No. That's correct. He said in two 

6 hour he called us in two hours and he said 

7 he'd make the records available to us. He asked 

8 us to come over and get them. 

9 Q And then what happened? 

10 A I told him please have them delivered 

11 to the office at the soonest possibility. 

12 Q Okay. And did you eventually receive 

13 those records? 

14 A My memory's kind of vague on this, but 

15 I believe it was like two days later, it was 

16 delivered to the front desk of Honolulu FSDO. 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, may I 

18 approach. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

2 0 MR. BOBERTZ: I have what's been marked 

21 for identification purposes as Administrator's 

22 Exhibit A-2 and A-3. 

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1 (Administrator's Exhibits A-2 

2 and A-3 were marked for 

3 identification) 

4 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

5 Q And just briefly, while I'm coming up 

6 there, Inspector Monfort, do you recall preparing 

7 a written statement regarding your meeting with 

8 Mr. Schuman? 

9 A Yes, sir. I do. 

10 Q Inspector Monfort, I've just handed 

11 you what's been marked for identification 

12 purposes as Administrator's Exhibits A-2 and A-3. 

13 Starting with Exhibit, what's been marked for 

14 identification as Exhibit A-2, do you recognize 

15 that document? 

16 A I do, sir. 

17 Q And what is it? 

18 A This is my statement, witness, 

19 inspector statement for that date. 

20 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 

21 Administrator's Exhibit A-2 into evidence. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. FERRARA: Your Honor, I do have an 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 objection as to that document. It's cumulative 

2 evidence. He just testified as to the events that 

3 took place on September 1 7'h, when he talked with 

4 my client. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Bobertz, I'll allow 

6 you to use it to refresh recollection or as 

7 evidence, but, you know, fairness and the rules 

8 would either be that this speaks for itself and 

9 that's the evidence, or it's testimony, so 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: I understand it's 

11 somewhat cumulative, Your Honor, but I think it 

12 just goes to corroborate the witness's testimony 

13 that he wrote the statement at the time of the 

14 event, and it corroborates his testimony today. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: I will admit it, but 

16 I'm going to give it limited weight based on the 

17 comments that I previously made. It's self18 serving, self-corroborating in that, and as you 

19 said it's cumulative. So it is an administrative 

20 hearing. The rules of evidence are somewhat 

21 relaxed. It is admissible but the court's not 

22 going to give it a great deal of weight, on 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 either corroboration or anything else. His 

2 testimony is the better evidence. 

3 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

4 Q Understood, Your Honor. Thank you. 

5 Inspector Monfort, now turning to 

6 Exhibit A-3, do you recognize this document? 

7 A Yes, sir. These are the daily flight 

8 logs or run sheets for the Cessna Caravan. 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I move that 

10 Exhibit, what's been marked as Administrator's 

11 Exhibit A-3 for identification purposes, into 

12 evidence. 

13 MR. FERRARA: No objection. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: FAA Exhibit A-3 for 

15 identification is received into evidence as A-3. 

16 (Administrator's Exhibit A-3, 

17 previously marked for 

18 identification, was received in 

19 evidence) 

20 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

21 Q Inspector Monfort, can you please 

22 review this document for us and tell us what, how 

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1 it's relevant to this investigation you were 

2 conducting. 

3 A This information is evidence of the 

4 actual flights, where they originated to are 

5 from and to. These are the actual commuter 

6 flights that were conducted for Mokulele by 

7 Schuman Aviation with this aircraft. 

8 Q And in a little bit more detail, the 

9 dates and the routing of the flights. 

10 A You want the individual dates that 

11 deal with Kona? Or would you like all the 

12 Q Just the ones that deal with Kona 

13 would be fine. 

14 A Okay. 

15 Q You know, and just for -- the dates 

16 that deal with Kona, you don't need to do each 

17 flight, but just so we understand what this 

18 document is telling us. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's start out by 

20 identifying all the -- Exhibit A-3, the airport 

21 code for Kona, so --

22 

(202) 234·4433 

THE WITNESS: K-0-A. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't have to 

2 spend hours on the computer, trying to 

3 THE WITNESS: The identification, three 

4 letter identification, Your Honor, is K-0-A. And 

5 you'll see that there's two flights that day on 

6 the page one of eight, and it's got the time 

7 periods, the actual aircraft hours, when they 

8 took off, when they landed, how much time was 

9 accumulated between each flight. And you'll 

10 notice that that recurs on multiple pages ln 

11 there. Page three of eight, you'll see OGG, KOA, 

12 KOA, OGG. OGG is Kahului, Maui. So he's been 

13 operating between Kona and Maui. 

14 Anything else you 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: And was it always the 

16 same aircraft? 

17 THE WITNESS: Give me one minute. No, 

18 sir. It was 687 Mike Alpha and 65 Mike Alpha. 

19 There are two different aircraft used ln this 

20 operation. 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. Thank you. So you 

22 received these record -- I don't know if you had 

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1 any other questions regarding this record, Your 

2 Honor. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just there's a pilot's 

4 signature, which I don't care about, and a 

5 certificate number. Does that - I forget. Is that 

6 certificate, pilot certificate a matter of public 

7 knowledge? I know if we had a certificate number 

8 for a commercial airline pilot, or an employee 

9 number, unless you had access to the database, 

10 all you had was a string of numbers. 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: I think what was a 

12 concern with pilot certificate numbers were their 

13 Social Security numbers, but I haven't heard the 

14 pilot certificate number being a concern. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Well, I'll leave 

16 that to you, Mr. Ferrara. If you feel it's a 

17 matter of concern with one of your pilots, I'll 

18 redact it. Otherwise, we'll just leave it. In 

19 other words, I just want to make sure we can't 

20 use that going to the FAA database and drill 

21 down, and get something they have no reason to 

22 have access to. You can let me know at the end of 

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1 the hearing. 

2 MR. FERRARA: Okay, Your Honor. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

4 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

5 Q Thank you, Inspector Monfort. So after 

6 you got the records from Schuman Aviation, did 

7 you obtain any other records? 

8 A Yes, sir. Once we identified that the 

9 actual flights to Kona were done from Mokulele, 

10 we requested records from Mokulele Airlines, to 

11 glve us their published schedule and which 

12 flights Schuman flew those published schedules 

13 for. 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I have what' s 

15 been marked for identification purposes as 

16 Administrator's Exhibits A-4 and A-5. May I 

17 approach. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

19 (Administrator's Exhibits A-4 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

and A-5 were 

identification) 

BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

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marked for 

(202) 234-4433 
25 

1 Q Inspector Monfort, I've handed you 

2 what's been marked for identification purposes as 

3 Administrator's Exhibit A-4 and A-5. 

4 Starting with Exhibit A-4, do you 

5 recognize that document? 

6 A Yes, sir. This is the official letter 

7 that we sent to Darryl Grace, the director of 

8 operations for Mokulele, requesting the records 

9 for the flights that Schuman conducted for 

10 Mokulele. 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 

12 what's been marked for identification purposes as 

13 Administrator's Exhibit A-4 into evidence. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Ferrara. 

15 MR. FERRARA: No objection, Your Honor. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: For identification is 

17 received into evidence as Exhibit A-4. 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

(Administrator's Exhibit A-4, 

previously marked for 

identificatio4 was received in 

evidence) 

BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

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1 Q And now turning to what's been marked 

2 for identification purposes as Administrator's 

3 Exhibit A-5, do you recognize that? 

4 A Yes, sir. This is the document Darryl 

5 Grace provided, showing the actual commuter 

6 scheduled airline operations. 

7 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 

8 what's been marked for identification purposes as 

9 Administrator's Exhibit A-5 into evidence. 

10 MR. FERRARA: For the record, I realize 

11 administrative rules are a little more relaxed 

12 than formal court rules, but this is a hearsay 

13 document, and it's also cumulative based on the 

14 records that we already have in evidence. 

15 But for those reasons, I will object. 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, this record 

17 actually shows the prior record shows the 

18 actual flights conducted by Schuman Aviation but 

19 does not necessarily tie them to the Mokulele's 

20 published flight schedule, and that's what this 

21 document does. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it has limited 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 value. I'll overrule the objection, note the 

2 objection for record and consideration, in 

3 considering what weight I'll give to it. But A-5 

4 for identification will be received into evidence 

5 as FAA Exhibit A-5. 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

7 (Administrator's Exhibit A-5, 

8 previously marked for 

9 identification, was received in 

10 evidence) 

11 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

12 Q Inspector Monfort, can you briefly 

13 describe what this document shows you and how 

14 it's relevant to your investigation. 

15 A This is showing that this is scheduled 

16 operations, which is the basis for a commuter 

17 airline. In other words, a ticket was sold for a 

18 certain time, for a certain -- from a certain 

19 airport to a certain place, just like you would 

20 go to an airline. So when this operation was 

21 conducted on these days, this was a scheduled 

22 commuter operation. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 It was previously known that that's 

2 going to happen on this date, at this time. So 

3 you'll see the flights that go between Kona and 

4 OGG. These were pre-planned flights by Mokulele, 

5 that were conducted by Schuman Aviation. 

6 Q So there's kind of two different 

7 looking there's the first two pages, and then 

8 there's the last three pages. Can you explain, 

9 differentiate between what the first two pages 

10 are showing, and then the last three pages are 

11 showing. 

12 A This is the on-time tracking sheet. 

13 Q I'm sorry. Can you be specific. Which 

14 lS the 

15 A Starting on page four of six, you'll 

16 see that these are the actual logs by the flight17 locating system for Mokulele, and that's their 

18 estimated time of departures and their estimated 

19 time of arrivals, and then with their actual 

20 times, it was inputted by an individual, when 

21 they landed and when they took off. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

And I'm sorry. I may have missed it. 

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1 And the first two pages? 

2 A The first two pages are just the 

3 flights conducted by Mokulele -- or excuse me --

4 by Schuman Aviation for Mokulele, and the pilot's 

5 name that conducted those flights from Schuman 

6 Aviation. 

7 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. Thank you. 

8 Your Honor, I have what's been marked 

9 for identification purposes as Administrator's 

10 Exhibit A-6 for identification purposes. May I 

11 approach. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

13 (Administrator's Exhibit A-6 was 

14 marked for identification) 

15 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

16 Q Inspector Monfort, do you recognize 

17 this document? 

18 A Yes. This is email traffic between 

19 Schuman, myself, and Inspector Santa Elena. 

20 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 

21 what's been marked for identification purposes as 

22 Administrator's Exhibit A-6 into evidence. 

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1 MR. FERRARA: No objection. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: A-6 for identification 

3 is received into evidence as A-6. 

4 (Administrator's Exhibit A-6, 

5 previously marked for 

6 identification, was received in 

7 evidence) 

B MR. BOBERTZ: One moment, please, Your 

9 Honor. 

10 Your Honor, I have what's been marked 

11 for identification purposes as Administrator's 

12 Exhibits 7, B, 9. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: I've only got 7. 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Ten and eleven. Yes. I'm 

15 sorry. I know. I have a extra copy for you too. 

16 I'm sorry. 7, B, 9, and 10. And I'm actually--

17 they are actually documents that I'm asking the 

18 court to take judicial notice of, and I will 

19 deliver you a copy here. 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

(Administrator's Exhibit A-7 

through A-10 were marked for 

identification) 

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31 

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Ferrara ,what the 

2 court normally does with 2150-3, which is A-7 for 

3 identification, I routinely take judicial notice. 

4 The evidentiary thing is it's a matter of public 

5 record. It's a document that, you know, fits all 

6 the -- the practical reason is I have drawers 

7 full of this order. But anyway, the court will 

8 take judicial notice. But I also, when reviewing 

9 the record for decision, I always check the 

10 Internet to make sure that we're, I'm looking at 

11 the copy of the order that relates to the facts 

12 of the case. From time to time, it changes. 

13 So I' 11 take, the court will take 

14 judicial notice of A-7 for identification. 

15 Now you're offering --

16 MR. BOBERTZ: In respect to 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: 8 , 9, and 10 appear to 

18 be legal interpretations; is that correct? 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Exhibit 8 is a legal 

20 interpretation. Exhibits 9 and 10 are excerpts 

21 from a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking regarding 

22 the regulations in question in this case, and 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 Exhibit 10 is the, an excerpt from the final rule 

2 regarding the regulation at question in this 

3 case. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: With respect to those 

5 documents, Mr. Ferrara, what's your position with 

6 respect to admissibility? 

7 MR. FERRARA: No objection. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I would normally 

9 take judicial notice, but I think I will probably 

10 admit them. It doesn't affect the weight I'm 

11 going to give the documents. So I will admit 

12 Exhibits, 8, 9, and 10 for identification as FAA 

13 Exhibits 8, 9, and 10, respectively. 

14 (Administrator's Exhibit A- 8, A15 9, and A-10, previously marked 

16 for identification, was received 

17 in evidence) 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Bobertz. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. If 

20 I may have just a minute. 

21 No further questions, Your Honor. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Ferrara, do you 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 want to inquire? Or do you want a minute before 

2 you begin? 

3 MR. FERRARA: Yes, I have --

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you want to take a 

5 minute to consult with your client before you 

6 start? 

7 MR. FERRARA: That'd be good. A small 

8 recess. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. It's 26 

10 minutes of. Let's take a recess until 20 minutes 

11 of. I'm going to instruct the witness you're 

12 not to discuss your testimony with anybody during 

13 this recess. At 20 minutes of, if you'll please 

14 return to the stand. 

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: We'll go off the record 

17 for about six minutes. 

18 MR. FERRARA: Thank you, Judge. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're off the record. 

20 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

21 went off the record at 9:35 a.m. and resumed at 

22 9:42a.m.) 

(202) 234-4433 

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34 

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to 

2 remind you that you're still under oath. 

3 Mr. Ferrara. 

4 MR. FERRARA: Thank you, Your Honor. 

5 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

6 BY MR. FERRARA: 

7 Q Inspector Monfort, good morning. 

8 A Good morning. 

9 Q You have all the exhibits in front of 

10 you. I'm going to be asking you some questions 

11 about some of the Government's exhibits. And you 

12 testified on direct that you've been with the FAA 

13 about five and a half years. Prior to your FAA 

14 experience, was your commercial-related aviation 

15 experience confined to the military, or 

16 A No, sir. I worked for Blue Hawaiian 

17 for approximately eight months, and I also worked 

18 for Evergreen Helicopters for a year. 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q And these were tour outfits? 

A One was a medivac and one was a tour. 

Q Okay. And did you ever manage or have 

anything to do with management in those 

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1 companies? 

2 A No, sir. Not ln the civilian world. I 

3 did not. 

4 Q So you've got -- prior to joining the 

5 FAA, you have no experience as a 135 operator? 

6 A Yes, sir. I worked for Evergreen for 

7 one year, and prior to that, eight months for 

8 Blue Hawaiian helicopters. 

9 Q Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't make myself 

10 clear as far as owning a 135 operation, or in 

11 management of a 135 operation. You were a line 

12 pilot for two different organi~ations? 

13 A Yes, sir. That's affirmative. 

14 Q Okay. Okay. At the time of I 

15 believe you testified, on direct, that you were 

16 the POI for Schuman Aviation at the time of the 

17 events that are alleged to have happened ln the 

18 Complaint, and what you just testified to; 

19 correct? 

20 A Yes, sir. I was. 

21 Q Okay. And because of that of course 

22 you're familiar with the op specs that were moved 

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36 

1 into evidence under Administrator's No. 1? 

2 A Yes, sir. Me and Mr. Schuman amended 

3 those op specs about four months earlier,_ Charlie 

4 070, for him to operate into Lahaina and Lanai. 

5 Q Okay. Are you aware of how long Mr. 

6 Schuman's organization, Schuman Aviation, was in 

7 the commuter business? 

8 A Mr. Schuman had been in the commuter 

9 business for over a year, a year and a half at 

10 the time, and he'd previously amended those op 

11 specs. 

12 Q And to your knowledge, his commuter 

13 experience was fairly well centered on the 

14 Molokai runs, between Molokai and Honolulu, 

15 Kalaupapa and Honolulu? 

16 A Yes, sir. And he was anticipating to 

17 operate from Mokulele into Lanai and Lahaina. 

18 Q Okay. Now let me refer you to the --

19 it's the second page of Administrator's Exhibit 

20 1. It has the airports listed where he's 

21 authorized to operate. 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Yes, sir. 

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37 

1 Q And this was, as you testified on 

2 direct, in place at the time of the flights that 

3 took place to Kona; correct? 

4 A Yes, sir. 

5 Q Okay. You testified that you do have 

6 experience flying around the Hawaiian Islands; 

7 correct? 

8 A I've flown around the Hawaiian Islands 

9 for 11 years. 

10 Q Okay. And as an inspector, I just want 

11 to get your opinion on some of these airports. 

12 Kalaupapa. How would you rate that as a airport 

13 requiring, say, more experience or less 

14 experience in the fixed wing business? 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Relevance. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

17 THE WITNESS: Kalaupapa's a very small 

18 airport that is difficult to fly in, but the same 

19 requirements for the commuter operation exist at 

20 Kona as they do at Kalaupapa. 

21 Q Sure. I understand that. How about 

22 Lanai, Lanai City? How would you rate that on a 

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38 

1 scale of 1 to 10 as far as difficulties flying 

2 into, with weather and 

3 A The weather at Lanai is pretty much 

4 island weather, the same as we have everywhere. 

5 Q Okay. Now as far as the Kona airport's 

6 concerned, what's your understanding of how long 

7 the runway is, what type of airport is it as far 

8 as difficulties, and getting in and out? 

9 A Kona' sa single, single runway airport 

10 with a very long runway. 

11 Q Now just for some background about 

12 Schuman Aviation. Did they apply for and did they 

13 receive an op specs amendment on September 2 gch to 

14 fly into Kona, to your understanding? 

15 A I believe that occurred after these 

16 original op specs and after Mr. Schuman was 

17 identified, that Kona required the op specs; yes. 

18 Q Fair enough. But what you're saying is 

19 he did finally get a Kona airport --

20 A 

21 Q 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Yes, sir. 

-- in his op specs? 

After he applied, my writing, like he 

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39 

1 did for the other op specs amendment, he did get 

2 Charlie 070 operation specifications to operate 

3 into Kona, after we conducted a categorical 

4 exclusion for his commuter operation into Kona. 

5 Q Okay. Fine. Now I just want to ask a 

6 couple of questions, your philosophy as a POI. 

7 Do you consider your operator that you're a 

8 principal operations inspector to be a client? 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Relevance. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Schuman is a customer 

12 to the FAA and I was his principal operations 

13 inspector. I've helped him on numerous times. 

14 BY MR. FERRARA: 

15 Q So do you consider that as your job, 

16 or part of your job, is to help the operator 

17 interpret the Federal Aviation regulations, op 

18 specs, and so on, everything that he needs to 

19 stay legal in his business? 

20 A Yes, sir. Mr. Schuman has inquired 

21 with me many times of different regulations and 

22 what and how we interpreted them at the Honolulu 

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40 

1 flight standards. 

2 Q Did he inquire prlor to these alleged 

3 flights, or the flights that we've stipulated to, 

4 actually -- inquire of you, or your office, to 

5 your knowledge, about the legality of these 

6 flights to Kona for Mokulele? 

7 A Mr. Schuman has asked to do on-demand 

8 operations for Mokulele in the past, and I 

9 informed him that he had to have same operation 

10 specifications at Mokulele to support Mokulele 

11 commuter operations. 

12 Q Well, specifically in the summer of 

13 2012, did you receive inquiries from Mr. Schuman 

14 concerning the legality of these operations for 

15 Mokulele into the Kona airport? 

16 A Nothing about Kona. He has never asked 

17 me about operating into Kona, that I recall. 

18 MR. FERRARA: One moment, Your Honor. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Certainly. 

20 BY MR. FERRARA: 

21 Q Now in Administrator's Exhibit 6, I'm 

22 referring you to page 9. Did you get a chance to 

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41 

1 read that? 

2 A Yes, sir. 

3 Q Okay. In that email-- it's dated, it 

4 looks like, July 19", 2012; correct? 

5 A Yes. I see that right there. 

6 Q Okay. And in this one, he's inquiring 

7 you about, specifically about FAR 119.53. 

8 Correct? 

9 A Correct. 

10 Q And what would you characterize that 

11 FAR? Is that the wet lease --

12 A I'm sorry, sir. I don't remember. I'd 

13 have to read that reg. 

14 Q Okay. Fair enough. Then apparently as 

15 part of that same exhibit, and same page, you get 

16 back to Richard, and say you've been directed to 

17 request that you provide the office a hard copy, 

18 written letter with exact requests, and so on. 

19 Did you ever get back to him after 

20 your interpretation request from DOT? 

21 A No, sir. July 20'" is two days before 

22 my birthday. I • d departed the area. I was no 

(202) 234-4433 

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42 

1 longer in the area. And then I followed up with 

2 some schools. So there was some time lapse. 

3 Q Okay. So are you saying before you 

4 left on your vacation, you didn't have any idea 

5 that Mr. Schuman was intending to fly for 

6 Mokulele the Kona route? 

7 A No, sir. Had Mr. Schuman asked me for 

8 the Kona route, I would have went through the 

9 categorical exclusion, requested an amendment to 

10 his operation specifications, and we would have 

11 went through the proper procedure to authorize 

12 him to conduct Kona operations, just like we did 

13 Lahaina and Lanai City. 

14 Q Okay. Let me refer you to page five of 

15 that same exhibit. Exhibit A-6. 

16 A I'm there, sir. 

17 Q Okay. Apparently this is an email 

18 after your meeting of September 17th, that Mr. 

19 Schuman sent to you, enclosing an email 

20 to Edward Santa Elena of your office. Is that 

21 your understanding of this document? 

22 A Page -- you said page five, sir? 

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1 Q Yes. Page five out of ten. 

2 A Page five out of ten. The first is an 

3 email traffic to Inspector Santa Elena and I 

4 assume this is a forwarded copy on September 18th, 

5 after the inspection for Kona, to me. 

6 Q Okay. Well, if you look up 1n the 

7 date, it says August 6th, so of 2012. So this 

8 email that was apparently sent to Mr. Santa 

9 Elena, or Inspector Santa Elena, directly 

10 requested information from the FAA on whether he 

11 needed to amend his op specs for Kona operations. 

12 Do you see that? 

13 A I do see that. 

14 Q Okay. Do you recall any telephone 

15 conversations that you had with Mr. Schuman in 

16 regard to these operations into Kona, prior to 

17 September, I believe it's the hold on a 

18 second. Yes. Prior to September B'h. That's what 

19 I thought. I just wanted to make sure. That's 

20 what's alleged in the Complaint. 

21 He started operations on September gth_ 

22 Do you recall any telephone conversations, or any 

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44 

1 other emails or correspondence in any shape or 

2 form with Mr. Schuman? 

3 A No, sir. I don't. Had I known that he 

4 was requesting to go to Kona, I would have 

5 started the process to issue him and go through 

6 the requirements to issue Charlie 070 into Kona. 

7 Q But you were out of town for a lot of 

8 that period; correct? 

9 A That's affirmative, sir. 

10 Q Okay. On September 13'"·, the Complaint 

11 alleges that's the end of the time period in 

12 which these flights took place. Do you have any 

13 recollection as to how Mr. Schuman was notified 

14 that the flights were in fact not permitted under 

15 his op specs? 

16 A I was under the impression that Mr. 

17 Schuman knew what to do to get it on op specs, 

18 cause he had previously done it three months 

19 earlier, or four months earlier. 

20 Q So are you saying today, that he 

21 terminated his flying into Kona voluntarily? Or 

22 was he told by your office? 

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45 

1 A On the date in question, when I 

2 requested records, and was denied access, Mr. 

3 Schuman immediately pulled the aircraft out of 

4 Kona and brought it back to Honolulu. 

5 Q This was on the 11h? 

6 A Yes, sir. I believe it was on the 

7 17'h, of 2012. 

8 Q But isn't it true that the log books, 

9 that are into evidence now, reflect only flights 

10 up to the 13'h? That would be a Thursday, and then 

11 there would be a work day, Friday, on the 14th, 

12 and then you met with him on Monday, the 1'"\'. 

13 A Actually, I think the aircraft may 

14 have been at Maui. I don't recall. I know that it 

15 wasn't present and he'd requested them to come 

16 back. 

17 Q I've got a question that involves the 

18 institution of this civil penalty investigation. 

19 Exhibit A-5 was moved into evidence and it 

2 0 contains Mokulele' s schedule, and then we also 

21 have a schedule from the log books, from Schuman 

22 Aviation, and your interpretation of the rules in 

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46 

1 this regard. 

2 Was Mokulele ever investigated? 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Relevance. 

4 MR. FERRARA: For employing a-- can I 

5 rephrase the question, Your Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

7 MR. FERRARA: Was Mokulele ever 

8 investigated for hiring a contractor with less 

9 qualifications than it had? 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Relevance. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

12 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. At the 

13 time I don't-- I don't know of any investigation 

14 that was conducted against Mokulele. 

15 BY MR. FERRARA: 

16 Q Inspector Santa Elena is their POI, or 

17 was their POI at the time? 

18 A That is affirmative. 

19 Q You never talked with Mr. Santa Elena 

20 about this? 

21 A Inspector Santa Elena about this? 

22 Q Were you aware of the email he 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 received from my client? 

2 A After the fact; yes. 

3 Q Okay. But we already acknowledged an 

4 email was sent on August 6th, 2012, which is more 

5 than a month before the flying actually started; 

6 correct? 

7 A The email sent to Ed Santa Elena; yes. 

8 Q Okay. Do you have any opinion, as a 

9 POI, that the operator that employs another 

10 operator, should be versed in the op specs of the 

11 contracted operator? 

12 A I believe the two companies should 

13 have corroborated and they should have been aware 

14 of each other's operation specifications. 

15 Q Okay. Let me refer your memory or 

16 recollection back to the 17th of September when 

17 you had the meeting. Did you give Mr. Schuman 

18 any advance notice of that meeting? Or did you 

19 just -- you and -- it is Bartlet? 

20 MR. BARTLER: Bartler. 

21 BY MR. FERRARA: 

22 Q Bartler. I'm sorry, Kyle. Yes. Kyle 

(202) 234·4433 

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1 Bartler. Did you and Inspector Bartler just show 

2 up at Mr. Schuman's office? 

3 A There's no requirement for us to 

4 notify the operator prior to inspection. So we 

5 can inspect unadultered documents, if so needed. 

6 Q And that's what you did? 

7 A Correct, sir. We showed up. We did not 

8 glve notification. We're not required. 

9 Q Well, at that point in time you didn't 

10 know where the aircraft, Schuman Aviation's 

11 aircraft were, the ones that are in question; 

12 correct? 

13 A I do not keep a daily track of where 

14 Mr. Schuman's aircraft are. 

15 Q Okay. So when you showed up at his 

16 office with Inspector Bartler, you -- of course 

17 you were his POI. Was Inspector Bartler there 

18 just as a witness? Were you the primary 

19 investigator in this -- well, this is starting to 

20 be an investigation; correct? 

21 A Correct. We normally employ two 

22 inspectors when we conduct an investigation. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 Q Okay. And you gave him no advance 

2 notice of the actual meeting, and you gave him no 

3 advance notice that you were going to be 

4 requiring certain records; correct? 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Asked and 

6 answered. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

8 THE WITNESS: No, sir. In accordance 

9 with the 135 rules and regulations, an inspector 

10 can inspect at any time and any place, and all 

11 the records that are available to us. 

12 BY MR. FERRARA: 

13 Q That's not my question. My question is 

14 did you, in advance, ask, or tell Mr. Schuman you 

15 would be requesting records, before you came 

16 over? 

17 A No, sir. As I said earlier, I did not 

18 glve him an advance notice prior to our 

19 inspection. 

20 Q Okay. Looking at that exhibit, and 

21 your testimony on direct, there was no mention of 

22 any prior communications between you, Mr. Schuman 

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1 and the FSDO personnel, namely Inspector Santa 

2 Elena. There was no mention of that in the 

3 report. Why is that? 

4 A Could you reword that, please, sir. 

5 Q Okay. In the report that is admitted 

6 into evidence under the Administrator 2 exhibit, 

7 and in your direct testimony, you never mentioned 

8 that you had contact with Mr. Schuman concerning 

9 the event for which we're here today. Is there a 

10 reason for that? 

11 A I did not know Mr. Schuman was 

12 conducting Kona operations prior to this time. 

13 Q Okay. When is the first time you found 

14 out he was doing, conducting Kona operations? 

15 A Early in the morning of the 17th, 

16 approximately 10 to 15 minutes prior to. I had 

17 been told and explained that there's a 

18 possibility that Mr. Schuman is conducting 

19 commuter operations out of Kona. I talked to my 

20 front-line manager, and then me and Kyle Bartler 

21 proceeded over to Mr. Schuman's office. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Did you talk with Mr. 

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Inspector 

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l Santa Elena prior to that? 

2 A I believe Inspector Santa Elena asked 

3 me if Mr. Schuman had operation specifications 

4 to operate into Kona. And I looked it up and 

5 found out that he did not. 

6 Q These records you requested, was it a 

7 specific request for certain dates, or did you 

8 want all the records during a certain timeframe, 

9 like, say, August, September? Or did you have a 

10 specific date in mind that you requested? 

11 A I cannot recollect. I just -- I know 

12 the times that he gave us and what he provided 

13 us. 

14 Q Okay. And normally the logs and 

15 correct me if I'm wrong -- are carried in the 

16 aircraft; correct? 

17 A Mr. Schuman also keeps a file in his 

18 maintenance records downstairs in his office. 

19 Plus he has an All Pro System that identifies 

20 where the aircraft go and come from. 

21 Q Well, would it be -- would it be an 

22 exception -- would it be an exception 

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well, 

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1 strike that. Would it be abnormal for an operator 

2 to, if he's stationed an aircraft in another 

3 locale, to bring all the records with him in the 

4 aircraft? 

5 A Again, this is an airworthiness 

6 question. I don't have the answer to that, sir. 

7 Q Okay. Okay. And after that meeting, 

8 you testified that he called back in about two 

9 hours. About 12 o'clock? 

10 A Two, two and a half again, that was 

11 two and a half years ago. 

12 Q Yes, and that's the tough part for 

13 everybody, recollection-wise. But you stated in 

14 your report that he did get back to you within 

15 two hours. 

16 A I think it was just slightly more than 

17 two hours. 

18 Q Okay. And then there's follow-up 

19 emails concerning the delivery of the logs and 

20 maintenance records, and so on, the next couple a 

21 days, and he finally located them and tried to 

22 make some arrangements on September 19th to get 

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1 them to you, and I think you were -- you had a 

2 personal emergency on the 2lf or something? 

3 A Yes. My wife had a medical emergency, 

4 which I left. 

5 Q Okay. But then in Exhibit, it's marked 

6 as No. 6 let me just find out what page it is. 

7 Okay. Page two out of ten. It says: Richard says 

8 that -- up on the top there, it says Mac should 

9 have dropped him off some time around noon. And 

10 who's Mac, to your knowledge? 

11 A Robert Reccoriston Smith is Mac. 

12 Q And he works for Mr. Schuman? 

13 A He was the -- excuse me. He's the 

14 not the instructor pilot -- he's the -- he's one 

15 of the instructor pilots for Schuman Aviation. 

16 Check airman. Sorry. Check airman is the actual 

17 term. 

18 Q Okay. In any event he was Schuman's 

19 representative at that point in time with the 

20 records for delivery? 

21 A Yes, sir. I worked with Mr. Smith, 

22 cordially, many, many times. 

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1 Q And just directing your attention to 

2 page one on Exhibit A-6 that's been moved into 

3 evidence. You state that on September 20'h, you 

4 had ln your possession the documents labeled 

5 Daily Flight Logs; correct? 

6 A Yes. When Mr. Schuman called me two, 

7 two and a half hours later, there's no question 

8 that he was going to deliver the records. 

9 Q Did you get any-- you didn't get any 

10 idea during this period of time that he was being 

11 noncompliant and trying to stonewall you as far 

12 as the records were going? 

13 A No, sir. After his initial denial, he 

14 said he wanted to talk to his lawyer before he 

15 gave us the records. He said, no, I don't think 

16 so, I've got to talk to my lawyer. He waited two 

17 and a half hours, and then he called us, and he 

18 said he -- he will give us the records. Had he 

19 told us the records were not there, this would be 

20 a non-issue. It's the initial -- that he denied 

21 it, that we were shocked. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Okay. You testified that during this 

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1 period of time, you were the principal operating 

2 inspector, operation specifications for Schuman 

3 Aviation; correct? 

4 A Yes, sir. 

5 Q And you're not in that position as we 

6 sit here today; correct? 

7 A No, sir. I am not. 

8 Q Okay. When were you removed from that 

9 position as POI for Schuman Aviation? 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Relevance. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

12 THE WITNESS: Well, sir, I was insulted 

13 by one of Mr. Schuman's employees, and I was --

14 my principal operations inspection job for Mr. 

15 Schuman was questioned by my front-line manager, 

16 and he asked me if I would like to leave. 

17 I was not physically removed. I 

18 requested to leave, and I am no longer Schuman's 

19 representative due to the fact that Mr. Bruce 

20 Mayes assaulted me on the property while 

21 conducting an inspection, an actual favorable 

22 inspection, which was unjustified by Mr. Bruce 

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1 Mayes. 

2 BY MR. FERRARA: 

3 Q Well, Mr. Schuman had nothing to do 

4 with that; right? His company --

5 A No, sir. It had nothing to do with Mr. 

6 Schuman. It was an employee of Schuman which 

7 created a hostile environment for a Federal 

8 Aviation inspector. I opted to leave. 

9 Q When you -- did you -- now he has a 

10 movie authorization by the FSDO to conduct formal 

11 operations -- they -- what do they call it? A 

12 movie manual? 

13 A Mr. Schuman's movie manual has nothing 

14 to do with his 135 commuter operation. I was his 

15 POI and never had an op -- a issue with his 135 

16 operation until this date. 

17 Q But you did have an issue with his 

18 movie operations, correct, prior to this? 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Relevance. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

21 THE WITNESS: Mr. Schuman's movie 

22 experience, he has a different attitude than his 

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1 commuter operation. 

2 BY MR. FERRARA: 

3 Q But you were removed from the movie 

4 operations, correct, before you left the POI 

5 position? 

6 A Yes. Mr. Schuman had violated many 

7 rules in his 130 -- under his movie manual, and 

8 he'd been suspended for operations under his 

9 movie manual. After the second or third time, 

10 during a 5-0 shoot, I was no longer his POI 

11 because I again requested not to be part of the 

12 135 movie manual. 

13 Q So you're telling the court today you 

14 just wanted out, that you didn't like your 

15 position as POI for Schuman Aviation. 

16 A Negative-- excuse me, sir. As far as 

17 

18 Q Yes or no? Are you telling the court 

19 you didn't like Schuman's operation and that's 

20 why you removed yourself as a POI? 

21 A No, sir. It was because of Bruce 

22 Mayes. That is the only reason I left Schuman 

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1 Aviation 135 commuter operation. 

2 Q You didn't have a discussion with your 

3 manager or Kawehi Lum, concerning your role as a 

4 POI? 

5 A I've had many conversations with my 

6 front-line managers, and managers as being a POI 

7 for Mr. Schuman Aviation. 

8 Q Would you consider your departure as 

9 a POI to be unusual, or sort of a normal event 

10 that happens with POis and operators? 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Relevance. 

12 MR. FERRARA: I'll withdraw the 

13 question, Your Honor. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

15 BY MR. FERRARA: 

16 Q One moment, Your Honor. 

17 What do you consider the kind of 

18 relationship you had with Mr. Schuman at the time 

19 of this investigation, on the 1 7'h of September 

20 2012? 

21 A Mr. Schuman on that date was cordial. 

22 I had no issues with Mr. Schuman as of that date. 

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1 Matter of fact, he'd commended me in helping him 

2 with other operations he's conducted with 135. I 

3 had a real cordial operation with Mr. Schuman and 

4 his company, other than his movie manual. 

5 Q And there were some problems with 

6 that; correct? 

7 A Just his movie manual, because Mr. 

8 Schuman liked to operate when he was denied 

9 permission to operate. 

10 Q Do you recall an incident that 

11 occurred prior to this September 17th, 2012 

12 meeting, wherein everybody, myself included, Mr. 

13 Schuman, representatives from your office to 

14 discuss a Hawaii 5-0 film shoot? 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Relevance. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

17 THE WITNESS: Which film shoot are you 

18 referring to? 

19 MR. FERRARA: I'm sorry? 

20 THE WITNESS: Which filming shoot were 

21 you referring to? 

22 BY MR. FERRARA: 

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1 Q This is the one that occurred 

2 downtown, that you were present at. 

3 A The fast rope one that he's referring 

4 to? I don't remember if that was before this date 

5 or after. 

6 Q Okay. That's fair enough. I have no 

7 further questions at this time. Thanks. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect. 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Just briefly, Your Honor. 

10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

11 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

12 Q Inspector Monfort, what is an operator 

13 required to do to amend an op spec? 

14 A He's got to make a written request 

15 asking for the op spec amendment. He's got to 

16 he normally provided us a letter saying where he 

17 was going to, where-- where he wanted to go--

18 start from and go to, and he provided us a list 

19 of altitudes that he'd be at where the single20 engine aircraft could make easy glide, or in the 

21 event of engine failure, could land on land. So 

22 it's like a seven page, eight page document. 

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1 Q So is it something that they can -- do 

2 they need official FAA approval before that 

3 amendment takes place or not? 

4 A Yes, sir. That document is signed by 

5 the operator and then it's finalized and issued 

6 by the Federal Aviation Administration. In this 

7 incident, it would have been me. 

8 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Inspector. 

9 MR. FERRARA: A couple addressed to 

10 that to those questions Your Honor, on 

11 recross. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

13 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 

14 BY MR. FERRARA: 

15 Q Inspector Monfort, in your opinion, as 

16 an inspector, do you have any opinion as to 

17 whether Schuman Aviation would have had any 

18 problems with the op specs amendment to fly and 

19 operate out of the Kona airport, based on his 

20 other airports that he lands at? 

21 A As far as operations into Kona, the 

22 only thing I needed to see was his agreement 

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1 between him and Mokulele authorizing them, him to 

2 use the facilities. Other than that, because Mr. 

3 Schuman did not have facilities to operate, or 

4 handle passengers out of Kona, except for the 

5 ones that Mokulele would provide. I just needed 

6 to see agreement. 

7 Q So what you're saying is if he did 

8 have the Kona operations in his op specs, the 

9 agreement that he had with Mokulele to take some 

10 of their passengers in and out of that airport 

11 would have been legal; correct? 

12 A Yes, sir. And that was evidenced 

13 eight days later when it was issued to him 

14 through the proper requests. 

15 Q And just to clarify your answer there, 

16 Mokulele and Schuman Aviation flew the same type 

17 of aircraft, correct, for this operation? 

18 A Yes, sir. 

19 Q Caravan. 

20 A But underneath the on-demand and 

21 commuter, there's different economical levels of 

22 authority; right? And an on-demand operator does 

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1 not carry the same insurance levels or the pilot 

2 requirements, and they don't meet the standards 

3 of the commuter operation. They don't have to. So 

4 it's unknown. 

5 Q Well -- and that's correct. And that 

6 was one of the reasons, that was one of the 

7 purposes of his inquiry to you, early on in the 

8 summer; correct? 

9 A As far as the inquiry into Kona, I 

10 don't have any recollection of that. 

11 Q Not specifically Kona but just what 

12 you were testifying about, about the different 

13 levels of 

14 A Well, yes; sure. Mr. Schuman was quite 

15 aware. He'd applied for the op specs into Lahaina 

16 and Lanai. Had he asked for them and done the 

17 proper requests, he would have been issued the 

18 operation specifications into Kona. 

19 Q Oh. So in other words, because he had 

20 these prior air these airports in his op 

21 specs, you didn't see any problem with his safety 

22 operations, or anything like that. Getting a op 

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1 specs amendment to Kona wouldn't have been that 

2 difficult? 

3 A Well, under commuter operations, Mr. 

4 Schuman would have used a high time pilot that 

5 was qualified in commuter operations. He would 

6 have had the facilities would have been 

7 inspected or verified, and we would know, for 

8 sure, that Mr. Schuman carried the same level of 

9 responsibility that Mokulele provided to its 

10 customers. 

11 Q And the question I'm asking is if he 

12 already had these airports that are acknowledged 

13 by you to be rather difficult to get ln, 

14 Kalaupapa and stuff like -- airports like that, 

15 you don't see any problem with him being 

16 qualified for a Kona operation? 

17 A Again, it's the process to get the 

18 operation approved. It's the requirement. 

19 MR. FERRARA: Okay. No further 

20 questions. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything further of 

22 this witness? 

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1 MR. BOBERTZ: Nothing further. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to 

3 instruct you not to discuss your testimony during 

4 the hearing. It's up to Mr. Bobertz whether you 

5 have to remain here or you're excused. But you 

6 can step down. 

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor. 

8 (Witness excused) 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: How long is the next 

10 witness going to take? Ballpark. 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: On direct, 15 minutes 

12 max. Maybe less. Probably less. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Call your 

14 next witness. 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: The Administrator calls 

16 Inspector Kyle Bartler. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise your 

18 right hand. 

19 WHEREUPON, 

20 KYLE BARTLER 

21 WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS AND HAVING FIRST BEEN 

22 DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS 

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1 FOLLOWS: 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. State 

3 your name for the record and spell your first and 

4 last name. 

5 THE WITNESS: My name's Kyle Bartler. 

6 First name, K-Y-L-E. Last name, B-A-R-T-L-E-R. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

8 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

10 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

11 Q Inspector Bartler, can you please tell 

12 me where you're employed? 

13 A I'm employed at the Federal Aviation 

14 Administration for the Honolulu Flight Standards 

15 District Office. 

16 Q 

17 A 

18 Q 

19 there? 

20 A 

21 months. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

And what is your position there? 

Aviation safety inspector. 

And how long have you been employed 

Approximately four years, three 

And can you briefly describe your job 

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1 duties. 

2 A Job duties include general aviation 

3 surveillance inspection, certification, accident 

4 investigation, investigation into pilot 

5 deviations, certificate management. That's about 

6 it. 

7 Q So do you recall accompanying 

8 Inspector Monfort on an inspection of Schuman 

9 Aviation on September 1~h' 2012? 

10 A I do. 

11 Q Do you recall why you accompanied 

12 Inspector Monfort? 

13 A I believe we discussed with the front14 line manager, Charles Cantu, before we proceeded 

15 over to conduct the inspection. And we were 

16 recommended to have two of us there. 

17 Q So can you tell me what happened next? 

18 A We basically got in the Government car 

19 and drove down the ramp, pulled up to the ramp in 

20 front of Schuman Aviation, and I don't know how 

21 we got in the door, but we were invited in. We 

22 met with Richard, and went up to his office, and 

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1 discussed basically the operations that may or 

2 may not have been occurring between Honolulu, 

3 Maui, and Kona. 

4 Q Can you recount the substance of that 

5 conversation? 

6 A Could you be more specific? 

7 Q Yes. So you and Inspector Monfort went 

8 into Schuman's office, sat down and was it you or 

9 Inspector Monfort doing most of the talking with 

10 Mr. Schuman? 

11 A As the POI, Inspector Monfort was 

12 doing most of the discussion. 

13 Q Okay. So did he ask Mr. Schuman about 

14 the operations into Kona? 

15 A He did. What I can recall is Mr. 

16 Schuman believed that it was a 135 on-demand 

17 charter for Mokulele and not a commuter 

18 operation. He stated that he could conduct 50, 

19 or as many as he wanted to, because it was an on20 demand charter and not a commuter operation. 

21 Q 

22 A 

(202) 234·4433 

And then what happened? 

Then we explained to 

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1 difference between a commuter operation and an 

2 on-demand operation, with specifics to how the 

3 pilots are held to a higher standard, they have 

4 to have more flight time, Mokulele provides a 

5 higher level of service than Schuman would, due 

6 to this. So the customers are basically paying 

7 for a ticket on a, quote, unquote, commuter 

8 airline that is held to a higher standard than an 

9 on-demand charter would be. 

10 So you're --you're not providing the 

11 same amount of service. So it's not-- you can't 

12 just charter a flight on something that's 

13 scheduled. It's a whole different animal. 

14 After that, we asked to see the 

15 records for the last couple flights that 

16 occurred, and he took about a minute pause and 

17 then said I don't think so. 

18 Q And then what happened? 

19 A Then we confirmed. Are you -- are you 

20 denying us access to your records? You know. And 

21 he said, I'd have to talk to my lawyer first. I 

22 don't think so. 

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1 Q Did he say anything about the records 

2 being off-site in his aircraft? 

3 A I do not recall. 

4 Q And then what happened? 

5 A Then we left, proceeded back to the 

6 office, spoke with our front-line manager, spoke 

7 with our office manager at the time, and called 

8 yourself. 

9 Q And what came of those conversations? 

10 A Basically, we were told to give him 3 0 

11 minutes, or so, I believe, a reasonable amount of 

12 time to produce the documents, and it took about 

13 a little over two hours, and he did Mr. 

14 Schuman did call the office and said he would 

15 provide the documents, about two, two and a half 

16 hours later, after we departed Schuman Aviation. 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: No further questions. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Ferrara. 

19 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

20 BY MR. FERRARA: 

21 Q Inspector Bartler, did you take over 

22 any type of administration of Schuman Aviation 

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1 shortly after Inspector Monfort left as POI? 

2 A Define take over. 

3 Q I'm sorry? 

4 A Could you please define the word take 

5 over. 

6 Q Well, manage. Did you have anything 

7 to do with his movie manual? 

8 A I had some oversight on, I'd say two 

9 or three different movie shoots and 

10 authorizations. 

11 Q Okay. That's a better word 

12 oversight. I like that. 

13 A Kind of what I was looking for. 

14 Q Okay. During those periods of 

15 oversight, did you have any problems with Mr. 

16 Schuman? How would you describe the relationship? 

17 A I didn't have any problems. It was--

18 everything was done -- you know, I had to check 

19 on things a little bit more than I'd like to, but 

20 that's-- that's just communication, really. So 

21 there was a little back and forth, but when the 

22 day was at an end, everything was done correctly; 

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1 yes. 

2 Q Well, you were there at the September 

3 1 7'" meeting. Would you describe -- you mentioned 

4 the word that -- or the phrase that Mr. Schuman 

5 had the impression that it was a charter 

6 operation. You know, of course, that Mr. 

7 Schuman, or Schuman Aviation had a commuter 

8 certificate. So they were at the level that you 

9 were talking about, that's higher than an on10 demand charter; correct? 

11 A Depends. It depends on what instance. 

12 It depends who the pilot was. It depends where 

13 they were operating. It depends -- there's all 

14 kinds of factors. So no, it doesn't mean 

15 necessarily that they were at the same level. It 

16 depends what the instance was, the flight was. 

17 There's multiple factors. 

18 Q Exactly. But you don't know whether 

19 the pilot or not had a -- I mean, was qualified 

20 with a commuter on-demand 

21 A I didn't know who the pilot was. There 

22 was no records. 

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1 Q At the time until he turned them --

2 A At the time. 

3 Q In your statement, you mentioned that 

4 at 10:15 you returned to the FSDO and explained 

5 the events to the front-line manager, and then at 

6 12:10 Mr. Schuman called. So it's a little less 

7 than two hours, not more; correct? 

8 A Depending on how long it takes to 

9 drive down the ramp. About roughly two hours, 

10 plus. 

11 Q Okay. Do you need to see a copy of 

12 your statement? 

13 A No, sir. 

14 Q Okay. By the way, concerning your 

15 statement, it's with the exception of the 

16 signature page, it's exactly identical to Mr. --

17 Inspector Monfort's report. 

18 Do you agree with that? 

19 A Yes. 

20 MR. FERRARA: Okay. I have no further 

21 questions. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect? 

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1 MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, again you're 

3 admonished not to discuss your testimony until 

4 the conclusion of the hearing. You're free to sit 

5 down. It's up to Mr. Bobertz whether you need to 

6 stay. 

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor. 

8 (Witness excused) 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: And as for the next 

10 witness, how long? 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: The Administrator rests, 

12 Your Honor. The Administrator has no more 

13 witnesses on its case in chief. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What we're going 

15 to do at this point, then, it's 26 minutes after 

16 10:00, we're going to take a break until 20 

17 minutes of 11:00 and then the Administrator 

18 having rested, Mr. Ferrara, it'll be your 

19 opportunity to present evidence, testimony or 

20 whatever you want to do. 

21 So we're going to go off the record 

22 until 20 minutes of 11:00. 

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1 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

2 went off the record 10:28 a.m. and resumed at 

3 10:46 a.m.) 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Ferrara, your 

5 pleasure. 

6 MR. FERRARA: A brief opening, Your 

7 Honor. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 

9 MR. FERRARA: The evidence that the 

10 Respondent will present will basically show this 

11 is a rather simple case. It's misunderstanding. 

12 There's miscommunication as to the legality of 

13 the flights in question, that were readily 

14 admitted by the Respondent. The evidence will 

15 show that there was more communication, that the 

16 Administrator's witnesses testified to concerning 

17 these issues. 

18 There'll also be testimony that the 

19 operator ceased flights when their company became 

20 aware that they were not in conformity to FAA 

21 regulations. There was distinct miscommunication, 

22 as the evidence will show, and misunderstanding 

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1 of the record production, and Mr. Schuman, 

2 through his testimony, will assert that the 

3 records were produced as soon as he was able to 

4 locate them. 

5 The records were -- the evidence will 

6 show, and has shown, that they were produced on 

7 September 2 eJh, 2 012 . 

8 We feel that we shouldn't be here more 

9 than two years after the events occurred, and we 

10 think there is a -- I assert that the evidence 

11 will show that this was a misunderstanding 

12 between operator and POI, and other elements of 

13 the Flight Standards District Office in Honolulu. 

14 Nothing further, and we'll call our first 

15 witness. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Have your witness 

17 come forward to the stand. 

18 MR. FERRARA: Your Honor, prior to 

19 calling Mr. Schuman, I'd like to call Inspector 

20 Santa Elena. We didn't list him as a witness, but 

21 the offer of proof for calling him as a witness 

22 would be just to clarify this one exhibit that 

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1 was moved in to evidence by the Administrator. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, looking at him, 

3 he felt left out, so feel -- let him approach. 

4 MR. FERRARA: We didn't want that to 

5 happen. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: No it's 

7 Raise your right hand. 

8 WHEREUPON, 

9 EDWARD SANTA ELENA 

10 WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS AND HAVING FIRST BEEN 

11 DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS 

12 FOLLOWS: 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. State 

14 your first and last name, and spell your first 

15 and last name for the record. 

16 THE WITNESS: My name is Edward Santa 

17 Elena. That's E-D-W-A-R-D, space, S-A-N-T-A with 

18 a space, E-L-E-N-A. 

19 

20 

21 

22 Q 

(202) 234·4433 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. FERRARA: 

Mr. Santa Elena, could you give us 

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1 your occupation and title. 

2 A I'm Aviation Safety Inspector at the 

3 Honolulu Flight Standards District Office. 

4 Q And how long have you been so 

5 employed? 

6 A Coming up on 13 years. 

7 Q Okay. And are you familiar with the 

8 events and circumstances that have been testified 

9 to in this case? 

10 A Yes, I do, sir. 

11 Q Okay. And at the time in question, on 

12 or about September 8'h through I guess the end of 

13 September we can use, were you a POI for Mokulele 

14 Airlines in 2012? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Okay. And how long had you been the 

17 POI for Mokulele? 

18 A I don't -- I can't give you an exact 

19 date, I don't recall, but I'm currently the 

20 principal to this date. 

21 Q Okay. And you know Mr. Schuman, the 

22 president of Schuman Aviation? 

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1 A Yes. Very well. 

2 Q Okay. I just want to ask you some 

3 questions. Do you have the exhibits in front of 

4 you, or do we need --

5 A No, I don't, but --

6 MR. BOBERTZ: Are you going to talk 

7 more about then Exhibit A-6, or --

8 BY MR. FERRARA: 

9 Q That's correct. 

10 Okay. Inspector Santa Elena, I'll 

11 refer you to Exhibit A-6, and it's paginated, and 

12 I'm looking at page 7 of 10. 

13 A Okay. 

14 Q Now this exhibit, as I stated, was 

15 provided by the Administrator in this hearing, 

16 and I direct your attention down to the bottom 

17 half of page seven. And it say aloha, Ed. 

18 A Yes. I recall this email. 

19 Q All right. Take a second to -- have 

20 you had a chance to read it? 

21 THE WITNESS: Let me read all of this. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: And while you're doing 

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1 that, just for the record, is your last name 

2 hyphenated, two words? 

3 THE WITNESS: No. There's just a space, 

4 sir. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's a space. Okay. 

6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: So the hyphenation is 

8 for the email? 

9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm looking at the 

11 email and it shows --

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, and the reason why 

13 is I guess the computer, it can't take a space, 

14 so it needs to put something in there. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's even worse than 

16 having spell-check. 

17 THE WITNESS: I just hope it doesn't 

18 hurt me on my returns, my tax returns. 

19 BY MR. FERRARA: 

20 Q So I guess in response to the judge's 

21 question, this is directed to you, this email 

22 from Richard Schuman? 

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81 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q That's your official government 

3 address? 

4 A That's correct. 

5 Q Okay. Did you have a chance to read 

6 the content of that email to you? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Okay. And it carries forward on page 

9 eight, the next page. Did you see that? 

10 A Yes, sir. 

11 Q Okay. Just for the record now, it's 

12 dated Monday, August 2012. Is that your 

13 understanding? 

14 A Yes. What is has on the exhibit; yes. 

15 Q Do you recall receiving this email? 

16 A Yes, and I do recall reading it as 

17 well. 

18 Q Now at this point ln time -- Inspector 

19 Monfort was he out of town? 

20 A I believe -- no, I'm not on the 

21 date that I read the email, I'm not sure what 

22 status Mr. Monfort was at, so I don't recall 

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1 specifically if he was in the office or not. 

2 Q Okay. Based on the evidence before 

3 you, I want you to take a look at it, and is it 

4 your understanding that Mr. Schuman is inquiring 

5 about the operations with your operator for 

6 operations and assistance in Kona? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q And were you able to get back to Mr. 

9 Schuman prior to September tJh, 2 012? 

10 A You know, I don't, I don't believe--

11 I know I didn't respond to Mr. Schuman's email. 

12 Again, I don't recall the date that I read the 

13 email, because normally, in the month of August, 

14 I'm out of the office for about a week or two. So 

15 I don't I don't recall. 

16 MR. FERRARA: Okay. No further 

17 questions. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, cross? 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Nothing, Your Honor. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you can step down. 

21 I'm going to ask you not to discuss your 

22 testimony. You can leave the exhibit up there. 

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1 Not to discuss your testimony with anybody prior 

2 to the conclusion of the hearing. 

3 Mr. Ferrara, your next witness. 

4 MR. FERRARA: I call Mr. Richard 

5 Schuman to the stand. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise your 

7 right hand. 

8 WHEREUPON, 

9 GUSTAV RICHARD SCHUMAN 

10 WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS AND HAVING FIRST BEEN 

11 DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS 

12 FOLLOWS: 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. State 

14 your name for the record and spell your first and 

15 last name. 

16 THE WITNESS: First name, Gustav, G-U17 S-T-A-V, middle name Richard, R-I-C-H-A-R-D, last 

18 name Schuman, S-C-H-U-M-A-N. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

20 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

21 BY MR. FERRARA: 

22 Q Mr. Schuman, could you state your 

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1 occupation and title. 

2 A Occupation is management. I'm the sole 

3 owner of a company called Schuman Aviation 

4 Company, Limited. I'm the President and Director 

5 of Operations. 

6 Q And could you describe briefly, the 

7 scope of your operations under Schuman Aviation? 

8 A Schuman Aviation is kind of a unique 

9 operation. We have both helicopters and fixed 

10 wings. We have helicopters that do 135 on-demand 

11 day/night operations. We have airplanes that are 

12 VFR/IFR, day/night, scheduled, and on-demand 

13 operations. 

14 Q Okay. And how long have you been in 

15 business? 

16 A The company was established in 1996. 

17 Q And how long have you been in the 

18 fixed wing commuter business? 

19 A We started fixed wing operations, I 

20 want to say either, right around 2008-ish. 

21 Q Okay. And do you yourself possess 

22 pilot certificates? 

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1 A Yes. I'm a ATP rotorcraft and a 

2 commercial multi-engine fixed wing. 

3 Q Okay. Is it safe to say that -- well, 

4 describe your experience in the commuter versus 

5 the helicopter business. 

6 A I'm much more versed in the helicopter 

7 operations. I've been doing that the better part 

8 of 20 years now. 

9 Fixed wing operations. We started in, 

10 I say either 2008-ish, when the economy took a 

11 dive, we ended up diversifying into fixed wing 

12 operations, starting off with 135 on-demand and 

13 air cargo operations. 

14 Q Okay. Let me direct your attention to 

15 the summer of 2012, and I'm going to be asking 

16 you several questions concerning Inspector 

17 Monfort's testimony today. 

18 When was your first contact with 

19 Mokulele concerning flying for them? 

20 A I can't recall the -- the date that 

21 they first contacted us to help support them. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Okay. What was your understanding of 

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1 what kind of support they needed? 

2 A Initially, we were inquired to support 

3 them on a commuter scheduled basis from Oahu to 

4 Molokai, Molokai to Maui, that may include Lanai 

5 and Kapal ua. 

6 Q Okay. Specifically now in the summer 

7 of 2012, prior to the flights that were taken to 

8 Kona on behalf of Mokulele, do you recall any 

9 specific conversations with Mokulele concerning 

10 those flights? 

11 A The question again, please. 

12 Q Okay. Do you recall any communication 

13 directly relevant to the flights in question 

14 here, that took place between September 8th and 

15 September 13th of 2012 with the Mokulele 

16 management? 

17 A Oh, concerning the flights into Kona? 

18 Q Yes. 

19 A Yes. Darryl Grace is the operations 

20 manager, or director of operations for Mokulele, 

21 and he had inquired about us being able to 

22 support some flights between the island of Maui 

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1 and the airport, Kona, because I believe he had 

2 some maintenance issues, or demand issues. So we 

3 discussed that possibility. 

4 Q Okay. And did you form an opinion at 

5 that point in time, or close to it, when you 

6 talked with Mr. Grace, as to whether or not you 

7 could legally fly those missions for Mokulele 

8 under your certificate, your commuter 

9 certificate? 

10 A It was my belief at that time, that we 

11 could comply with Mr. Grace's requests because we 

12 were one -- we were authorized 135 on-demand. We 

13 also were a 135 scheduled air carrier, and it 

14 was, at that time was a period just to help him 

15 out due to whatever operational issues he had at 

16 that time. 

17 So it was relatively going to be a 

18 short-lived, potentially a short-lived thing, and 

19 because it was one operator, or one customer, he 

20 dictated the times, he dictated the flights, he 

21 dictated the days. It's been my experience that 

22 we complied with 135 on-demand. 

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1 Q Okay. But you checked into that 

2 further; correct? 

3 A Well, I had a phone call -- timing4 wise, I don't remember the dates, but Mr. Monfort 

5 was my POI at the time, and I believe he did 

6 leave the islands for either personal, or I knew 

7 he had training in Texas, or something 1 ike that. 

8 So I called him, or made an attempt to call him 

9 on the phone, and talked to him about this 

10 particular mission. 

11 Q And what was your concern? 

12 A I was seeking his interpretation of 

13 this mission. 

14 Q As to whether it could be flown on15 demand, or whether you needed to change your op 

16 specs? 

17 A That would be correct. 

18 Q Did you mention to him that it 

19 involved operations in and out of the Kona 

20 airport? 

21 A Specifically Kona, because I had 

22 operation specifications for the other airports, 

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1 and because this was not on my operation 

2 specifications. So I specifically asked him about 

3 missions from Maui to Kona. 

4 Q I believe you have the Exhibit A-6 in 

5 front of you. Could you take a look at that? That 

6 was submitted by the Administrator. 

7 A Yes, sir. 

8 Q And take a brief moment to read that 

9 exhibit, and I'll ask you whether or not this 

10 reflects your recollection of the correspondence 

11 between you and the FSDO. 

12 A Is there a specific page, or -- but 

13 these look familiar. 

14 Q Okay. Now the substance of that, the 

15 communications, based on your recollection of the 

16 events that happened, and based on that exhibit, 

17 what were you seeking from the FAA, Mr. Monfort, 

18 and from Inspector Santa Elena? 

19 A Yes. My email was sent to Joe and 

20 copied, Ed, on one of them. 

21 Q 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Joe being who? 

Monfort. 

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1 Q Okay. 

2 A was specifically about the Kona 

3 operation. 

4 Q So you sort of disagree with Inspector 

5 Monfort's testimony today, that he knew nothing 

6 about the Kona operations? 

7 A That's what I heard him say. 

8 Q And you did it's your testimony 

9 today, that you discussed specifically Kona 

10 operations with him on a phone conference, at 

11 least once? 

12 A Yes. Absolutely on the phone, and then 

13 I followed up by emails. 

14 Q Okay. Now the email that you're 

15 speaking about is the one that was sent to 

16 Inspector Santa Elena; correct? 

17 A That's one, but there's one missing 

18 that was sent to Joe and copied, Mr. Santa Elena 

19 in on that request also. My first email went 

20 to my principal POI, and I copied in Mr. Santa 

21 Elena. Then the second email that you see here 

22 was specifically to Ed, because I had -- I knew 

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1 Joe was not on island. 

2 Q Okay. The one you're referring to --

3 Inspector Santa Elena -- is the August 6'h email; 

4 correct? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q And then there was another email that 

7 was sent later on, of course this is right after 

8 the meeting, to Inspector Monfort, showing him 

9 the email ln question? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q Okay. Now was there some discussion in 

12 your office management about the legality of 

13 these flights? 

14 A Yes. Between my chief pilot and my 

15 check airmen, we discussed this operation. 

16 Q Okay. And what was the decision ln 

17 regards to Mokulele's request that you help them 

18 out in flights between Maui and Kona? 

19 A Well, the between my chief pilot 

20 and my check airmen, we, as we discussed the --

21 this particular request to support them in Kona, 

22 we needed-- we decided to call Mr. Monfort and 

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1 try to get a interpretatim, because up to that 

2 time we were still trying to research the 

3 regulation as far as 135 on-demand, and we kept 

4 up coming with the same answer, that it could be 

5 done as a on-demand 135 charter. 

6 Q But it's your testimony today, that 

7 even though you came up with that conclusion, you 

8 wanted to inquire of the FAA as to whether they 

9 or not agreed with that; correct? 

10 A That's correct. 

11 Q Now did you get any response from 

12 anybody at the FSDO, either from Inspector 

13 Monfort or Inspector Santa Elena? 

14 A I did not. 

15 Q Okay. And what was your understanding 

16 for the lack of response? I mean, there was one 

17 email from Inspector Monfort that said he was 

18 checking into it. What was your understanding of 

19 that? 

20 A My feeling at the time, understanding 

21 how you interpret different regulations, the no 

22 response from either Joe or Mr. Santa Elena, at 

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1 least in my mind made me feel that if they had no 

2 issue, then I had no issue. 

3 Q So is your testimony today that if you 

4 had received a response from Mr. Monfort, I mean 

5 Inspector Monfort, pardon me, that -- saying 

6 that you needed destination airports, they had to 

7 be included in your op specs, you wouldn't have 

8 flown the missions? 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Calls for 

10 speculation. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

12 BY MR. FERRARA: 

13 Q You can answer. 

14 A The I understood the difference 

15 between commuter operations and on-demand. We 

16 were authorized. We were a commuter operator. We 

17 did have authorization into airports that we were 

18 conducting scheduled operations into, and hence, 

19 my inquiry, because this was a -- that airport 

20 was not on my operation specifications, and 

21 Mokulele was requesting some support, and in my 

22 mind it was a short-term operation, hence, we 

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1 needed a little bit more clarity, or 

2 clarification on, on the interpretation of that 

3 135 on-demand rule. 

4 Since not receiving if, if Mr. --

5 Joe or Mr. Santa Elena would have called, 

6 emailed, said look, Rich, no, don't do it until I 

7 get back to you. Rich, hold off until I 

8 anything. If they would have indicated that this 

9 was a no go mission at all, I wouldn't have done 

10 it. 

11 Q Did you make a whole lotta money off 

12 these missions? 

13 A No. In fact, after starting this 

14 operation, supporting Mokulele, and I was kind of 

15 at -- at the initial onset trying to guess 

16 they wanted to know what I was going to charge 

17 them, and I just took a wild guess, and after 

18 doing the math, it was actually a loser, 

19 supporting them, and hence, we no longer support 

20 them, but 

21 Q So why did you fly the missions for 

22 Mokulele between the September 8'h and September 

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1 13th? 

2 A Well, because they asked us to. 

3 Q Did you fly because it was your 

4 understanding, based on the totality of the 

5 circumstances, that the flights were legal? 

6 A Yes. Absolutely. My company would not 

7 engage in any flight operations that I deemed to 

8 be not within the FARs. 

9 Q Well, what you're saying is and a 

10 couple reasons for a couple reasons it 

11 wouldn't be worth it to violate the FARs for this 

12 type of 

13 A Yes. Absolutely. Yes. I mean, we 

14 wouldn't knowingly, willingly, disregard the 

15 federal regulations and conduct air operations. 

16 So regardless of the amount of money that we 

17 might make on the job. 

18 Q Okay. So in that regard, you had 

19 nothing to hide. You were flying the missions 

20 openly. You kept records? 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

That's correct. Yes, sir. 

There wasn't any effort, on your part, 

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1 or any of your employees' part, to keep this as a 

2 secret, a secret from the FAA that you were 

3 flying these missions? 

4 A No, sir. 

5 Q As a matter of fact, Inspector Santa 

6 Elena knew from an email that you were intending 

7 to do these kind of missions, if you were asked 

8 by Mokulele? 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Overstates - -

10 misstates the prior testimony. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

12 BY MR. FERRARA: 

13 Q Okay. During this week that you were 

14 in operations, flying a Mokulele mission for them 

15 from Maui to Kona, did you have any contact with 

16 anybody from the Honolulu FSDO? 

17 A Not to my knowledge, if we're talking 

18 about the week we were conducting operations in 

19 to Kona. I do not recall having any 

20 conversations, or communication with the local 

21 FSDO. 

22 Q Okay. Just so we're clear on the 

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1 calendar dates. Your last flight, reflected in 

2 the log submitted by the Government here, was 

3 September 13th. The meeting with Inspectors 

4 Bartler and Monfort was on the 17th. Why did you 

5 terminate your flights on the 1~? 

6 A It was my-- Mr. McCorsen, Mac Smith, 

7 came and informed me that he was -- he had a 

8 conversation with Joe about -- I'm not sure what 

9 the conversation was about, but Mac had mentioned 

10 something to Joe about us conducting operations 

11 in to Kona, and based on our recollection, Mac 

12 then -- I mean Joe told Mac that we couldn't do 

13 it. So Mac came and found me, and told me the 

14 conversation he had with Joe, and we immediately 

15 ceased operations. 

16 Q And that was on the 13th, to your 

17 recollection? 

18 A Yes, sir. 

19 Q Okay. Up until that date, was there 

20 any communication from the FAA saying that you 

21 could not do this operation with the present op 

22 specs that you had? 

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1 A No. Not to my knowledge. 

2 Q All right. On the meeting of 

3 describe that meeting that took place on 

4 September 17h, 2012. 

5 A As a little bit a background, the --

6 the tension between myself, or my company and Joe 

7 started to get a little tenuous. The 

8 relationships that I've had with prior POis had 

9 been really good, and -- and our relationship 

10 with Joe, for a long time, was it was 

11 cooperative, was okay. 

12 Q And he used the word cordial. Do you 

13 agree with that? 

14 A Yes, sir. I do. On that particular 

15 day, there were internal memos from my staff 

16 about the relationship that the company was 

17 having with Joe, and subsequent emails or letters 

18 that I had sent to the FSDO asking for his 

19 removal from being my POI. So we kind a felt--

20 at least myself and my staff, that we kind a felt 

21 we had to be very careful with Joe, because we 

22 feel we were somehow a target, and we were just 

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1 -- we just felt he was out to -- to try to find 

2 something against us, or for something. 

3 Q Okay. When he -- they announced their 

4 presence at your office, apparently, or at least 

5 at the Makani Kai building, is it safe to say you 

6 invited him in to your office -- and then when 

7 was the first time, during that conversation, 

8 that they informed you what they were looking at 

9 -- after? Did immediately, or did you guys have 

10 

11 A Pretty immediately. It's been my 

12 practice that any of the local FSDO people can 

13 come in to my operation and walk in to my office 

14 any time they want. We've never had any formal, 

15 they've got to call me, or -- or anything, and 

16 and they all have done it in past years. So it 

17 was no surprise to see Joe and-- and Kyle come 

18 in to my place of business, and unannounced. 

19 Wasn't a surprise. 

20 So when they wanted to meet me, I say 

21 okay. We go upstairs in to my office. No problem. 

22 Sat down and we started chatting, and then I'm 

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1 not sure what took place first, but, you know, 

2 then Joe did ask about the Kona operations. 

3 Q Were you surprised by the subject 

4 matter of the meeting? 

5 A I actually was, because in my mind, 

6 when we were informed that we couldn't do it, we 

7 immediately stopped, took the aircraft and 

8 dispatched it, and put it in Maui. And at that 

9 point I thought, okay, we complied, and I didn't 

10 it surprised me that -- his inquiry. 

11 Q Did it seem like an investigation was 

12 starting? Or were they just talking about the 

13 legalities? And what was your impression of their 

14 intent, if you have one? 

15 A The initial impression, as the 

16 conversation started, I got the feeling, real 

17 quickly, that I was being set up. 

18 Q Okay. And did you have a discussion, 

19 as testified by the two inspectors, that -- of 

20 your impression as to what these missions were, 

21 versus their opinion? In other words, on-demand 

22 charter versus a commuter operation? 

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1 A I don't exactly recall, but I -- I'm 

2 pretty sure Joe would have said that these were 

3 not, in his opinion -- if we're talking about 

4 that meeting in his opinion, that I could 

5 conduct them under 135 on-demand. 

6 Q Okay. And then you heard the testimony 

7 about the records. What's your version, or your 

8 recollection, as to what transpired concerning 

9 the log books, and manifests, and maintenance 

10 records? 

11 A Well, when I -- when I got the feeling 

12 that Mr. Monfort had set me up in my mind, by not 

13 answering the previous emails, and his initial 

14 the phone conversation we had with him prior to 

15 this, then his here to conduct an 

16 investigation, kind a threw me off. So when he 

17 specifically asked about the records, I did 

18 pause, and thought about it, and I did say, I 

19 don't think so. I'm not sure- he asked if he 

20 could have it and I probably said, no, I don't 

21 think so. 

22 Q 

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Did you know where the records were at 

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1 that time, at that very moment he asked? 

2 A No. At that very moment that he asked, 

3 I did not know exactly where the records were. 

4 Q And was that one a the reasons you 

5 said I don't think so? 

6 A Yes. I didn't know where they were. 

7 Unlike his testimony, the records aircraft 

8 records are kept in the aircraft. We keep no 

9 copies at our home base. Semantics. We keep 

10 approximately one month of records in the 

11 aircraft. After a month we pull them out, and 

12 then those months are kept at our base 

13 operations. 

14 So if you were to walk in and say I 

15 want to see your records from a month ago, 

16 regardless where the aircraft was, I could 

17 produce those. If you ask me where the records 

18 are as of last week, depending where the aircraft 

19 is is where those records would be. 

20 Q Is it a fair statement-- that's the 

21 reason why you said I don't think so, and then 

22 what did you do after that? 

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1 A Well, my concern at the time, when I 

2 was thinking about after, I felt I was being set 

3 up, the records being in the airplane on the 

4 island of Maui, I know I couldn't produce them at 

5 that moment, if he wanted them. 

6 And he said he wanted them now, and in 

7 my mind, I couldn't produce them now. And as far 

8 as contacting my attorney, I needed to get his 

9 take on, if I can't produce the records as they 

10 demand now, because they're on another island, 

11 what do we do? And after contacting counsel, he 

12 told me how to handle it, and we did. 

13 Q And then what was your next step in 

14 locating the records? 

15 A Well, the next step was to find out 

16 where the, where the aircraft was, and it as 

17 located in Maui. At that time, the pilot that was 

18 on standby was at a apartment that we had there, 

19 which is in a place called -- I think it was 

20 Kihei. It's approximately a 30, maybe 40 minute 

21 drive from the airport. 

22 So what we needed to do is we 

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1 contacted the pilot, we had the pilot drive back 

2 to the airport, retrieve the log book and the 

3 pages that Joe wanted, and then I don't remember 

4 if he faxed them or scanned them, but we needed 

5 to find some kind of electronic means of getting 

6 them from the island of Maui to back to 

7 Honolulu, where then I, you know, informed the 

8 FAA that I could produce those records, you know, 

9 pretty pretty quickly. 

10 Q Okay. But at the time the initial 

11 request was made by Inspector Monfort, you 

12 couldn't report any of that until you made the 

13 inquiries of your personnel, correct? 

14 A That's correct. 

15 Q Okay. And I guess it's sort of unclear 

16 from the testimony , but it looks like from the 

17 inspector's statements, that was within a two18 hour period that you inquired of -- where the 

19 records were. Is that your recollection? 

20 A I don't recall if it was two hours, 

21 but it was pretty quick. There was no no 

22 motive, on my part, to stall or delay a day or 

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1 hour, or anything. It's just to -- is to find 

2 out how to get them and get them, you know, ln 

3 some kind a form back to the FSDO as soon as 

4 possible. 

5 Q And were you able to speak directly 

6 with Mr. Monfort, two hours after that -- they 

7 left the -- your office? 

8 A I don't recall if I called and -- and 

9 told them they're coming, or I went them an 

10 email. I don't recall how I communicated that the 

11 records would be, you know, available soon, or 

12 

13 Q Both inspectors testified that it was 

14 about at 12:10 p.m., which they got a call from 

15 you. Do you have any argument with that? 

16 A No, sir. 

17 Q Okay. Is it your recollection that 

18 they left on or about 10:15 that morning? 

19 A It was pretty short. When he asked 

2 0 about retrieving the records, and I didn't 

21 produce them, he stood up and they left. 

22 Q 

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Now at the time of the request by 

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1 Inspector Monfort, did he seem agitated, or was 

2 he in a big hurry to get the records? Or how did 

3 you interpret the urgency of the matter? 

4 A I believe, you know, as far as him 

5 wanting those records right now, there was a high 

6 urgency. Once I phoned him, or communicated that 

7 we could get the records, then there was no 

8 urgency. 

9 Q And why do you say that? 

10 A Because I believe either I talked to 

11 him or emailed that we could do it, and then he 

12 said we'll have Mac drop it off, or I'll have Mac 

13 drop it off, and at a certain day or time, and it 

14 all kind a happened after the fact. But if he 

15 didn't need it, if it was two hours, or two and a 

16 half hours later, there was no urgency to say, 

17 okay, I want them, and I want them -- you deliver 

18 them right away, and we would have complied on 

19 the same day. 

20 Q Okay. Based on that statement, the 

21 Complaint in this matter was filed on February 

22 14th, 2014. 

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Were you surprised to get this 

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1 Complaint? 

2 A Yes, absolutely. 

3 Q And why is that? 

4 A I didn't think I did anything wrong, 

5 and when notified that the mission we were doing 

6 was in question, we ceased immediately, and it's 

7 been my practice to comply with what --

8 Q Well, let me ask you this. Based on 

9 your experience as an operator, is it fairly 

10 common for you to sit down with your POI and 

11 discuss things that maybe could have done better, 

12 you could have done better? Or, you know, this 

13 kind a stuff, off-the-record type of 

14 communication between operator and POI? 

15 A Yes; absolutely. In my almost 20 years 

16 of doing this, that's been the practice. 

17 Q So you were the meeting of 

18 September 17th, is it fair to say that you were 

19 you thought that was the end of it, once you 

20 produced the records? 

21 A 

22 Q 

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Yes, sir. 

And why is that? 

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1 A Because after I explained my side, or 

2 my interpretation, and complied with his record 

3 request, he would find out yes, we did do the 

4 missions. I didn't hide that. I didn't deny we 

5 did the missions. You know, if, if some 

6 administrative action was due, I expected, okay, 

7 he would send me a letter or -- or something of 

8 that nature. But I thought it was a done deal. 

9 Finished. 

10 Q Okay. Now I need to ask you a couple 

11 questions to clarify the relationship between 

12 Inspector Monfort and Schuman Aviation. What was 

13 your understanding of why he was no longer your 

14 POI? 

15 A There were -- and it started off with 

16 the movie manual operations. It was one 

17 particular shoot, I went to the FSDO manager, and 

18 escalated up to region, because I felt Joe put us 

19 in a -- not only do I think they -- he --

20 He was able to convince the local 

21 manager to remove my movie manual based on safety 

22 issues, and my letter back to the, the manager of 

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1 the FSDO, refuting Joe's issues of safety, when 

2 he was the one that created the unsafe 

3 environment that I had to operate in. So my 

4 movie manual was immediately removed, and it took 

5 us, I want to say, several weeks or more to get 

6 it back, finally get it back. 

7 Q Did you get it back? 

8 A We did get it back. 

9 Q And did Inspector Bartler end up 

10 overseeing? 

11 A Yes. When I had gone to region and 

12 asked to speak to the manager, and it ended up 

13 being Kawehi Lum, and she flew out to Honolulu 

14 cause the it was getting, in my mind, pretty 

15 bad, the relationship between Joe and I, 

16 specifically related to movie operations. 

17 And I felt I could no longer conduct 

18 business, which the movie industry -- in this 

19 case it was Hawaii Five-0, which I'm now still 

20 on, on my fifth year of conducting film 

21 operations for them, I could no longer continue 

22 if Joe was going to be my POI on the movie side. 

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1 His, in my opinion, lack of 

2 experience, lack of knowledge of the industry, 

3 and our capabilities, put me at a disadvantage. 

4 And when the local managers, Casey and Kawehi, 

5 whatever meetings they had, they came to see me, 

6 and they said their remedy was that they were 

7 going to take Joe off my movie manual 

8 responsibility, and keep him on as my POI. And 

9 then I found out that they had asked Inspector 

10 Bartler to resume those duties as overseeing my 

11 movie operations. 

12 Q And this, these situations occurred 

13 between the 17th of September 2012 and the time 

14 the Complaint was filed in February of 2014? 

15 A I would guess so. 

16 Q Okay. Mr. Schuman, is there anything 

17 else you want to add as to why you're resisting 

18 this civil penalty? 

19 A Yes, sir. There's been several, I 

20 guess conversations, between my counsel and the 

21 FAA counsel, and wanting to settle this, and --

22 and 

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1 Q Well, we can't discuss settlement 

2 negotiations here. But just as to your 

3 understanding of what you did and what you didn't 

4 do, and your belief in your position. 

5 A The reason I'm sitting here is because 

6 I believe I didn't do anything wrong, and my 

7 efforts to try to get the FAA inspectors to give 

8 me an interpretation of what I was doing, when it 

9 went unanswered, I conducted operations. So 

10 again I feel I was set up, because anyone of 

11 them, or any of -- any of the inspectors could 

12 have said to cease or stop, or for whatever 

13 reason, would have derailed it, and I wouldn't 

14 have done it. 

15 Q What would be the impact of -- they 

16 FAA is asking for a $28,000 civil penalty in this 

17 case. What would be the impact on your operations 

18 and your company, if you had to pay such a fine? 

19 A The financial impact would be -- would 

20 be high. Currently, the State of Hawaii's economy 

21 you know, I'm currently running about 34 

22 percent off of last year in my helicopter 

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1 operations. So, you know, I don't believe the 

2 penalty should be there. I don't believe there 

3 should be a financial penalty for what I 

4 believe I didn't do anything wrong. 

5 Q One last question. As-- you mentioned 

6 earlier that -- the amount of compensation you 

7 received from Mokulele. What was the gross and 

8 the approximate net to your company for that week 

9 of operations? 

10 A Well, after concluding the-- the math 

11 on this, I calculated that I probably lost about 

12 $24,000 trying to do this job. 

13 MR. FERRARA: I have no further 

14 questions, Your Honor. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross. 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. But I 

17 would ask for a short comfort break. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. I hate to put you 

19 on the spot. What's your guesstimate on cross? 

20 It's not going to be five or ten minutes. 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: No. 

22 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Then why don't we do 

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1 this. It's 11:30. Let's take a lunch break. I'm 

2 going to ask you to be back by 12:30. If you're 

3 back before that, we'll go on the record and 

4 resume from there. I'm going to instruct the 

5 witness not to discuss your testimony during the 

6 course of this hearing. 

7 You know, if you're a little late 

8 getting back at 12:30, don't worry about it. When 

9 everybody's here and ready, we'll be-- we'll go 

10 back on the record and with the cross11 examination. Okay. So we're going to go off. It's 

12 11:30. Try to get back around 12:30. When 

13 everybody gets here, we'll go on the record. 

14 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

15 went off the record at 11:32 and resumed at 12:37 

16 p.m.) 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: I remind the witness 

18 you've been previously sworn. Mr. Bobertz. 

19 

20 

21 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

Good afternoon, Mr. Schuman. 

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There 

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1 was a lot of testimony, on direct, from you, I 

2 think, regarding your understanding of the --

3 what was okay and not okay to do. But I guess I'm 

4 still not clear. Can you please describe to me 

5 why you decided it was okay to conduct your 

6 operations that you did for Mokulele? 

7 A Number one, starting off with a phone 

8 conversation I had with Joe. 

9 Q And what was the date of that? 

10 A I don't recall. Prior to us commencing 

11 operations. 

12 Q Do you recall about, you know, a day 

13 prior? A week prior? A month prior? Six months 

14 prior? 

15 A Well, it was when he -- when he was 

16 in, I believe, Texas. 

17 Q 

18 training? 

19 A 

20 Q 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

You called Mr. Monfort ln Texas. In 

Yes, sir. 

Okay. How did you reach him? 

Telephone. 

Cell phone? 

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1 A Cell phone. 

2 Q So you had --

3 A Well, his cell phone. 

4 Q You had Inspector Monfort's personal 

5 cell phone to call him? 

6 A I don't know if it's personal cell 

7 phone or government cell phone. 

8 Q But you had down, you could access Mr. 

9 Monfort on his cell phone, if you needed to? 

10 A Yes. Most a the POis I've had in the 

11 past have given me their cell phones, so we can 

12 contact them any time we had a question outside 

13 maybe normal business hours. 

14 Q So while we're on that subject, why 

15 didn't you call him in this regard when you had a 

16 question about the regulations? 

17 A I did. But he had left Honolulu. 

18 Q Okay. So you still were able to call 

19 him when he was in Texas for -- according to what 

20 you just said. Why didn't you call him 

21 specifically about this? 

22 A 

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I did, specifically about Kona. 

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1 Q Specifically. And what did he say? 

2 A He had no issue with it. 

3 Q He said he had no issue with your 

4 operations. So okay. Do you have the exhibits ln 

5 front of you, Mr. Schuman? 

6 A I do. 

7 Q Can you please turn to Exhibit A. A-6. 

8 Page nine of ten. So on the bottom page, it's 

9 your email to Joe, asking him what? 

10 A Question number one was an 

11 interpretation on FAR 119.53 (f) 

12 Q And what did-- what was Mr. Monfort's 

13 response? 

14 A I don't recall. If you're asking 

15 Q An email directly-- it's on the top 

16 of that same page in his email response. 

17 A Oh. You want me to read it? 

18 Q Well, sure. 

19 A Richard, I have been directed to 

20 request that you provide this office a hard copy, 

21 written letter, with your exact specific request 

22 with who, what, when, and where you want to 

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1 conduct this operation, and this office will 

2 forward your request to the region for review. 

3 Q And then the next few sentences. 

4 A As far as a formal legal 

5 interpretation of Federal Aviation rule, I will 

6 have to call Region Legal Department on Monday on 

7 how to get this done. 

8 Q And finally? 

9 A At this point ln time, the Honolulu 

10 FSDO does not find this interpretation of the 

11 rule applicable to your proposed scenario. 

12 Q So on July 20'h, 2012, you had this 

13 email exchange. Or July 19'h and July 20th, with 

14 Inspector Monfort. And yet you're testifying that 

15 some time after that, you called him and he said, 

16 I have no issue? 

17 A Well, I don't know the dates he was 

18 gone, so I don't know if it was before or after 

19 this. 

20 Q Whether it was before or after, 

21 doesn't it seem .strange that he would tell you to 

22 ask -- make your request in detail, in writing, 

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1 and that at this point we do not find your 

2 interpretation applicable, and yet you're saying 

3 you had a phone call with him where he said I 

4 have no issue with it? 

5 A It's kind of semantics. I mean, the 

6 discussion which you know, we both don' t 

7 recall the exact words, or -- but it was about 

8 the mission to Kona, and my discussion would have 

9 been related around the interpretation of 135 on10 demand, which to today, I was commuter, I was 

11 scheduled, I was 135. When a individual company 

12 calls to provide air transportation from point A 

13 to point B, we were authorized to do it. 

14 Q Okay. Sorry, go ahead if you had more. 

15 A No. 

16 Q Okay. We'll get more into that in a 

17 moment. But -- So if you had a conversation with 

18 Inspector Monfort and he said he had no issue 

19 with it, why, then, are you writing to the POI of 

2 0 Mokulele in a email, August 6'h, and still asking 

21 for permission, if you felt like you had 

22 permission from Inspector Monfort? Why then go 

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1 and ask agaln from another inspector who's not 

2 the POI? 

3 A He is a POI. 

4 Q He was not your POI. 

5 A Correct. 

6 Q Why? Why, if you felt like you had 

7 permission already from a phone call with 

8 Inspector Monfort, are you writing to the POI for 

9 Mokulele, asking for permission again? 

10 A It was, I think said recommend or 

11 suggested my -- by my chief pilot to include Mr. 

12 Santa Elena in to the email process, because it 

13 was Mokulele that was asking us to support them, 

14 and to inform their POI of this potential 

15 upcoming mission, and see if the two agreed. 

16 Q So you knew there were potential 

17 issues with what you were doing, asking all these 

18 questions? 

19 A No. It was more to back up my -- as I 

20 stated earlier, that at this point in time, our 

21 relationship started to get tenuous. So it was 

22 more like to 

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1 Q So you were certain that the 

2 operations were okay? 

3 A I was certain they were okay. 

4 Q Then why ask at all? 

5 A To make sure the FAA get it in 

6 writing. 

7 Q Where does it allow you to get an op 

8 spec amendment verbally? Is there somewhere it 

9 says that you can proceed with something you're 

10 not authorized to by your operation 

11 specifications without getting a change? 

12 A No, I don't think that would be 

13 correct. 

14 Q So let's go back to your understanding 

15 of why it was correct. You started to talk about 

16 doing-- you believed it was on-demand operations 

17 you were conducting for Mokulele? 

18 A Well, as my email on page five of ten, 

19 to Ed, more specifically outlined we were -- we 

20 have a -- we had a current arrangement, kind of 

21 with Mokulele, and they may need or want our 

22 assistance ln to Kona, and because of my 

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1 interpretation, it was set up on a charter basis, 

2 then my question to Ed, being the POI for 

3 Mokulele, for his interpretation. 

4 Because at the time it wasn't set up 

5 like where, okay, Richard, I want you to start on 

6 this date. I want you to continue servicing these 

7 lines for a period a time, like we were-- yes. 

8 So it was, my understanding at the time, was very 

9 short. I don't know why they needed help. Don't 

10 know why they're asking. But I was trying to --

11 ahead of them calling and asking, to try to get 

12 that interpretation. 

13 Q So this email to Edward Santa Elena 

14 was August 6th. And the operation started 

15 September 8'h through 13th. About a month later. So 

16 did you make any further effort with the FAA to 

17 clarify this? You sent a email. I understand you 

18 say you didn't get a response. 

19 A True. 

20 Q Did you make any further efforts to 

21 get an answer from the FAA? 

22 A 

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Not after the phone call or the two 

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1 emails. 

2 Q And so according to the August 6th 

3 email to Ed Santa Elena, you still had some doubt 

4 about the operation, yet you went ahead a month 

5 later and conducted them. 

6 A I didn't have a doubt. 

7 Q Then why are you asking? 

8 A To cover my ass. Excuse the language, 

9 sir. Maybe to prevent what we're doing right now. 

10 Q Well, so you have done, you have gone 

11 through the official process before to get 

12 authority to have your op specs, C070 modified to 

13 include airports you wanted to do commuter 

14 operations to, haven't you? 

15 A For the airports that we wanted to do 

16 commuter operations to. That's correct. 

17 Q So you knew the process to get to 

18 formally change your op specs, didn't you? 

19 A To airports that we wanted to do 

20 commuter operations to. That's correct. 

21 Q So it's your opinion that you were not 

22 doing commuter operations in this case? 

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1 A That's correct. 

2 Q Did you know that you were not going 

3 to make any money at the time you agreed to do 

4 the operations for Mokulele? 

5 A No, sir. 

6 Q Isn't it true that you previously told 

7 Inspector Monfort, that given a choice between 

8 making money or violating the regulations, you 

9 would violate the regulations? 

10 A I don't recall a statement like that. 

11 Q We talked about the September 17th 

12 inspection, where the two inspectors came to your 

13 office, and I believe you testified on direct, 

14 that you didn't know where the records were at 

15 the time, when they asked you for your records. 

16 A At that moment, that's correct. 

17 Q Then why didn't you say so? 

18 A Well, what was going through my mind 

19 at that time, as I stated, is I felt I was 

20 getting set up. 

21 Q Okay. So if you felt you were set up, 

22 what does that have -- why would that prevent you 

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1 from saying, I don't know where my records are? 

2 A Well, that would be kind of dumb. 

3 Q Why is that? 

4 A I'm the director of operations. If you 

5 were to say, well, I don't know where my records 

6 are. I mean, I know they're somewhere in my 

7 building or they're somewhere in the aircraft. I 

8 mean, I had an idea. But I didn't know exactly 

9 where they were at the time he asked me. 

10 Q Exactly where. So you didn't know 

11 do you not keep a copy of those records in your 

12 office? 

13 A We do not. 

14 Q You don't have a computer system that 

15 keeps those records, where you could have easily 

16 accessed them and printed them, and given them to 

17 Mr. Monfort? 

18 A 

19 Q 

20 A 

21 airplane. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

We do not. 

And it turns out that they were where? 

On the island of Maui, 

In which airplane? 

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in the 

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1 A I don't recall the N number. Was 7 

2 Mike Alpha? Or I need to look at the log sheet. 

3 Q Okay. Well, there were two aircraft 

4 involved in the flights to -- for Mokulele. Were 

5 they both in Maui? 

6 A No, sir. 

7 Q So where was the other aircraft? 

8 A I couldn't tell you on that day or 

9 time, but somewhere between Honolulu or Molokai. 

10 Q Okay. So in regards to the aircraft 

11 that was in Maui so it sounds like you talked 

12 about calling up right away and locating your 

13 pilot that was in Maui, regarding the records. So 

14 what about the other pilot? What about the 

15 records in the other aircraft that you were 

16 calling to get? Did you call to get those 

17 records as well? 

18 A I don't think Joe asked me for that 

19 aircraft records. 

20 Q So you also -- you testified that the 

21 pilot was ln Maui, 30 minutes away from the 

22 airport, and you had him drive back to the 

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1 airport, collect the records, and then I believe 

2 fax or scan them to you? 

3 A Yes. I don't know what the drive time 

4 was, but yes, that would be corrected. 

5 Q Okay. So your contention that you --

6 the aircraft the records requested were 

7 actually on that aircraft in Maui rather than 

8 present in your facility, is pretty important to 

9 this case. Would you agree? 

10 A Yes, sir. 

11 Q And it supports your story that you 

12 didn't know where the records were at the time, 

13 or they weren't at your facility. 

14 A They definitely were not at my 

15 facility. 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: So is there a reason you 

17 didn't call the pilot here to testify today? 

18 MR. FERRARA: Objection. We don't have 

19 the burden of proof here, Your Honor. 

2 0 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. I'm not sure 

21 that that's--

22 MR. BOBERTZ: Is there a reason you 

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1 didn't at least get a declaration from that 

2 pilot? This goes to their affirmative defense, 

3 Your Honor, for why they didn't have the records 

4 there. 

5 MR. FERRARA: The same objection. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it's their 

7 affirmative defense. Sustained. 

8 THE WITNESS: I don't know what that 

9 means. 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: One moment, please, Your 

11 Honor. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

13 (Pause.) 

14 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

15 Q Mr. Schuman, you testified that this 

16 civil penalty of 28,000 would have a high impact 

17 on your company, that you were 34 percent off 

18 your income, I suppose, from last year due to the 

19 economy. How much has your company grossed this 

20 year, approximately? 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

About 7 million. 

And last year? 

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1 A It'd be 6 million. 

2 Q So that was gross. And what about net? 

3 A Net for last year? 

4 Q And this year, to date. 

5 A Is that what we would claim on our tax 

6 returns? Because the reason I ask that 

7 question, it's -- as an operator you have gross 

8 sales, expenses, and then the accountants at the 

9 end of the year, for tax purposes, do an interest 

10 and depreciation expense, and they nail you down 

11 to where I make almost nothing. 

12 Q Can you be more specific? Is almost 

13 nothing to you a couple hundred thousand dollars? 

14 Ten dollars? 

15 A 

16 Q 

17 A 

18 Q 

19 today? 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234·4433 

Oh, no. 

A hundred dollars? 

In most years, we get a tax refund. 

Did you bring any tax returns with you 

THE WITNESS: No, sir. 

MR. BOBERTZ: No further questions. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect? 

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1 MR. FERRARA: A couple questions, Your 

2 Honor. 

3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

4 Q Mr. Schuman, in response to FAA 

5 counsel's questions about the issue of the 

6 records, you know, you agreed with him that it's 

7 an important issue in the case. 

8 I need to make it clear, and we need 

9 to make the record clear. When you said ui don't 

10 think so," what did you mean by that? Did you 

11 mean you were refusing to do this, or you just 

12 didn't know where the records were? 

13 A Yes, it was like -- kind of recall 

14 that, that instant in time, I didn't know where 

15 the records were that, at that moment. And 

16 because he wanted them now, I didn't know how, 

17 really, you could comply with them. I think he 

18 did ask again, and then they stood up and left. 

19 You know, in hindsight, if he would have asked, 

2 0 you know, where are they, or when can we get 

21 them, or it probably would have taken a 

22 different course. But it didn't. 

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1 He asked, I believe about twice, and 

2 stood up and left. 

3 Q And then as soon as they left, what 

4 did you do? 

5 A Called my counsel. 

6 Q Okay. And then after that? 

7 A I might have called my chief pilot or 

8 my -- or my check airman, and said we need to get 

9 ahold of the pilot, find out -- you know, call 

10 him on his cell phone, tell him we need the 

11 records from this date period, and figure out --

12 you know, get back to the airport, get those 

13 records, and get them to us, either try to find a 

14 fax machine or a scan machine, or something, but 

15 somehow get them to us, so I could get them to 

16 the FSDO. 

17 Q And then once you found out where the 

18 records were, you called Inspector Monfort; 

19 correct? 

20 A 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

Yes, sir. 

MR. FERRARA: No further questions. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Bobertz, anything 

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1 based on that line of questioning? 

2 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 

3 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

4 Q Mr. Schuman, isn't it true that the 

5 Inspectors Monfort and Bartler, Kyle Bartler, 

6 actually specifically asked you in their second 

7 question: Are you sure you want to deny us access 

8 to your records, to the records? And you replied 

9 that you have to talk to your attorney first? 

10 A Well, by denying them access, I didn't 

11 have them in my possession to give to them. 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: No further questions. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything else for this 

14 witness? 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: Nothing more, Your Honor. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Schuman, you can 

17 step down. Please don't discuss your testimony 

18 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

19 hearing. 

20 Counsel. 

21 MR. FERRARA: The Respondent rests. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Bobertz. Want a 

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1 minute to think? 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. Thank you. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: I tell you what. It's 

4 1:00 o'clock. We'll take a break till five after 

5 1:00. Give both of you a chance to collect your 

6 thoughts. 

7 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

8 went off the record at 1:02 p.m. and resumed at 

9 1:08 p.m.) 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Bobertz. 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

12 The Administrator would like to call Inspector 

13 Joe Monfort back to the stand as a rebuttal 

14 witness. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, please take the 

16 stand. I remind you you're still under oath. 

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

19 WHEREUPON, 

20 JOSEPH MONFORT 

21 WAS RECALLED AS A REBUTTAL WITNESS AND, HAVING 

22 PREVIOUSLY BEEN DULY SWORN, WAS FURTHER EXAMINED 

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1 AND FURTHER TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 

2 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

3 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

4 Q Inspector Monfort, I believe you heard 

5 Mr. Schuman testify on direct that he -- alleging 

6 that he had a conversation with you prior to 

7 these flights, wherein you gave him some kind of 

8 permission to go forward with them. Is that true? 

9 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I deny that. I 

10 don't recall any call where I authorized him to 

11 conduct commuter operations, over my cell phone. 

12 Q Have you had other conversations with 

13 Mr. Schuman over the past, about him making 

14 requests for certain types of operations, 

15 questions, and what not? 

16 A As you can see ln the email, that I 

17 responded to Mr. Schuman, saying that on-demand 

18 operations could never support a commuter 

19 operation, and he was un -- he -- he understood 

20 that. 

21 

22 Monfort. 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Inspector 

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1 MR. FERRARA: One moment, Your Honor. 

2 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

3 BY MR. FERRARA: 

4 Q If there was a call made by Mr. 

5 Schuman, it had to be around that time period as 

6 he testified. On your direct or my cross7 examination of you earlier on this morning, you 

8 said you didn't remember anything or 

9 everything because it was two years ago. 

10 Do you recall something to that 

11 effect? 

12 A Yes, sir. But I know for a fact I 

13 never told Mr. Schuman he can conduct commuter 

14 operations for an on-demand -- with an on-demand 

15 operation. 

16 Q That's not what the question is. The 

17 question is whether he made a phone call to you 

18 some time around your email of the 20th of July. 

19 You don't recall a phone call, or you're 

20 absolutely certain there wasn't a phone call? 

21 A I do not recall the phone call date or 

22 time. I don't know if he'd asked me about 

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1 commuter-- I don't remember. But I do know for a 

2 fact, and I will state this again. Mr. Schuman 

3 was denied to do commuter operations for an on4 demand operation. 

5 This is not the first time Mr. Schuman 

i 

6 had asked to do this. It was approximately a year 

7 earlier, Mr. Schuman had asked to operate on8 demand for a 121 air carrier, and he asked for 

9 regional guidance, which we got on a Friday 

10 evening about 7:00 o'clock, which again he was 

11 denied, commuter operations with an on-demand 

12 operation. 

13 Q But you have no recollection of 

14 whether you denied him on-demand operations on or 

15 about July 2nd -- or July 20'h, 2012; correct? I 

16 mean 

17 A Yes, sir. I could never approve an 

18 operation through a phone for commuter operations 

19 without op specs. 

20 Q Let me ask you this. 

21 Did you get the August 6'h email that 

22 was sent to both Inspector Santa Elena, yourself, 

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1 and Mr. Grace of Mokulele? 

2 A Sir, I was cc'ed that email and I was 

3 out of town on a CF -- I was conducting CFI 

4 certification for helicopters at Dallas-Fort 

5 Worth. And I had pictures for the dates that I 

6 was in Dallas. 

7 Q So you're telling me you have no 

8 access to your email, even though you're still 

9 working for the FAA? 

10 A Sir, when we attend classes, we don't 

11 check our email. We don't have our Government 

12 computers with us. We are attending school. 

13 Q You can't get access to your email 

14 while you're at school? 

15 A Again, Mr. Schuman has my personal 

16 cell phone for any emergencies, and he could call 

17 me directly. But I don't-- I did not have access 

18 to my email while I'm at AFS 60. 

19 Q That's what he's saying he did. He 

20 called you directly on your email. I mean on your 

21 cell phone, back in -- on or about July 20th, 

22 2012. 

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1 A Again, I can't approve anything over 

2 the phone, sir. 

3 Q So you don't recall a phone call? It's 

4 not that absolutely wasn't made; right? 

5 A Sir, the 

6 Q Let me clarify that question. 

7 A Go ahead. 

8 Q You don't have any records saying Mr. 

9 Schuman didn't call me about this; correct? 

10 A Affirmative. Yes, sir. 

11 MR. FERRARA: I have no further 

12 questions. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Bobertz. 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Nothing else, Your Honor. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: You can step down. 

16 Again, thank you, and the same admonition. Please 

17 don't discuss your testimony during the pendency 

18 of the hearing. 

19 Anything else, gentlemen? 

20 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. The Administrator 

21 also calls Inspector, Aviation Safety Inspector 

22 Nathan Dickinson to also rebut testimony of Mr. 

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1 Schuman on direct. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Sir, please 

3 approach the stand and raise your right hand. 

4 WHEREUPON, 

5 NATHAN DICKINSON 

6 WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS ON REBUTTAL, AND HAVING 

7 FIRST BEEN DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED 

B AS FOLLOWS: 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. State 

10 your name for the record and spell your first and 

11 last name. 

12 THE WITNESS: Nathan Dickinson. N-a-t13 h-a-n. D-i-c-k-i-n-s-o-n. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

16 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

17 Q Inspector Dickinson, where are you 

18 employed? 

19 A I'm an aviation safety inspector with 

20 the Western Pacific Region, Flight Standards 

21 Division, in the Air Carrier Branch. 

22 Q And can you tell -- you mentioned Air 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 Carrier Branch. What is your position there? 

2 A Specifically, I'm referred to as a 

3 regional specialist for 135 air carrier. So on 

4 the operation side. 

5 Q And what does that mean? 

6 A Basically that means I'm-- I'm a --

7 I'm a conduit between field offices and 

8 headquarters. I'm a middle man essentially. But 

9 for issues that field offices run into. Either 

10 they have to, by virtue of policy or regulation, 

11 or something in the field office, if somebody 

12 doesn't understand something, those issues come 

13 up to me and I handle them, either work with 

14 headquarters or somebody else to come up with an 

15 answer. Or I go ahead and I give a response back 

16 to the field office. 

17 Q Can you describe your experience with 

18 135 operations and regulations, and requirements 

19 for 135 operators. 

20 A Sure. I've worked for the FAA for a 

21 little over eight years. I've been an aviation 

22 safety inspector in general aviation operations 

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1 the whole time. I've been a P -- I was a POI for 

2 a little over five years, 135 operators, ranging 

3 from single-pilot operations through turbojet, 

4 ten or more operations. I've been in my current 

5 role as a regional specialist since October of 

6 last year. So a little over a year. 

7 

8 And in my role now, I very frequently 

9 I mean I very frequently deal with the 

10 regulations. In fact, part of my duties are 

11 enforcement reviews before they get passed onto 

12 our legal office. 

13 Q Can you elaborate a little bit more on 

14 your familiarity with the regulatims and the 

15 requirements for 135 operators. 

16 A Certainly. I, as a POI, I -- I mean, 

17 I deal with them on a, almost on a daily basis. I 

18 mean we live, you know, under a system of rules. 

19 You know, the FARs really control everything that 

20 we do in this industry. 

21 So I mean, I interact with them daily. 

22 Operators, on their own, I frequently would 

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1 discuss regulations with them; you know. 

2 Certainly with other attorneys, with the FAA. 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I tender 

4 Inspector Dickinson as an expert on the 

5 requirements for 135 operations. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Want to voir dire, Mr. 

7 Ferrara? 

8 MR. FERRARA: I have no objection to 

9 that. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. The court 

11 will accept him as an expert ln the area 

12 proffered. 

13 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

14 Q Thank you, Your Honor. 

15 So Inspector Dickinson, I believe you 

16 heard Mr. Schuman testify that he was he 

17 believed he was conducting on-demand operations 

18 with the flights he was conducting for Mokulele. 

19 Was he? 

20 A I -- I'm not sure exactly how, how to 

21 answer this, but in terms of the proper 

22 nomenclature. But no, I don't believe so. 

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1 Q Well, I'm sorry. Let me -- I'm sorry 

2 to interrupt you for a minute, but what I'd 1ike 

3 to go ahead and put Regulation 14 CFR 119.53. 

4 It's, you know, I guess -- I don't know if you 

5 need to even take judicial notice, but -- because 

6 it's a FAA regulation. But I've marked it as 

7 Administrator's Exhibit 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: What is it again? 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: It's just a copy of our 

10 regulation, one of our FARs. It's 14 CFR 119.53. 

11 Perhaps the court reporter could help 

12 with what exhibit I'm on. I think it was -- I 

13 think this would be A-11. But does that sound 

14 right? Thank you. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Wait a minute. 14 

16 CFR. What's the full cite again? 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: 119.53. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's one of the 

19 reasons I carry my iPad. I've got all the stuff 

20 downloaded on my iPad. I learned that trick from 

21 Judge Bowens. 

22 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

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1 Q So Inspector Dickinson, you just 

2 mentioned that you didn't believe that what --

3 the operations that were being conducted in this 

4 case could be classified as on-demand. 

5 Can you elaborate on that. 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q And if they're not on-demand, what 

8 just start -- if they're not on-demand, what are 

9 they? 

10 A In the 135 realm, you can either be a 

11 commuter or on-demand. 

12 Q Okay. 

13 A So if you're not on-demand, you would 

14 be a commuter. 

15 Q Okay. And why are their flights in 

16 this case commuter? 

17 A There's two components to it. One 

18 would be scheduled operations. In other words, 

19 it's pre-coordinated, it's sold to the general 

20 public, individual tickets, a published flight 

21 schedule. That's one portion of it. 

22 The other portion of it is frequency. 

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1 Five or more flights in a week falls under the 

2 commuter category. 

3 Q And so which of those two categories 

4 did Schuman fall into? 

5 A Commuter. 

6 Q No. I'm sorry. You mentioned there are 

7 two ways somebody could be a commuter, cause 

8 they're either 

9 A Oh, Okay. 

10 Q They have a published schedule, hold 

11 themselves out to the public, and then 

12 A So given, given what I saw in this 

13 case, right here, if I understand you correctly, 

14 the flights that Schuman conducted were made 

15 available to the general public, they sold 

16 individual tickets, and there was a frequency 

17 greater than five in a week. There were 24 in 

18 that -- that one week period. 

19 So they would meet the criteria of 

20 both tests. 

21 Q And are both required for him to be 

22 considered a commuter? Or is it one or the other? 

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1 So is he a commuter because he flew more than 

2 five times in a week? Or is he a commuter because 

3 he substituted for Mokulele conducting commuter 

4 operations? Or for both reasons? And either one 

5 would suffice. 

6 A No. You have to meet -- you have to 

7 meet both. When -- FAR Part 110.2 gives you the 

8 definitions, and if you look at the definition of 

9 a commuter operator, it says "conducting 

10 scheduled operations with a frequency 

11 greater than five times a week.n 

12 Q I see. Okay. So I think my question 

13 was confusing. 

14 So what if Mr. Schuman had conducted 

15 less than five operations for Mokulele? Then what 

16 would he be considered? What would those 

17 operations be considered? 

18 A There is a provision, FAR 110.2, when 

19 you look under On Demand, scheduled operations 

20 less than four times in a week, that is allowed. 

21 That is in the definition. 

22 Q 

(202) 234·4433 

Okay. 

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1 A But in this case, because Schuman 

2 Aviation was substituting for another carrier 

3 that was operating as a commuter, they had to 

4 operate as a commuter as well. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: No further questions. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Ferrara. 

7 MR. FERRARA: Just a few on cross8 examination, Your Honor. 

9 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

10 BY MR. FERRARA: 

11 Q Inspector, you testified that you were 

12 you had experience in the field as a POI for 

13 about five years? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q Okay. And you probably heard -- you've 

16 been sitting in the courtroom the whole day; 

17 correct? 

18 A Correct. 

19 Q Okay. And you probably heard my 

20 question about, you know, what the operational 

21 duties of a POI are. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

Would you agree that 

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1 experience, a POI is there to help the operator 

2 sort of steer through the maze of these Federal 

3 Aviation Administration regulations? One of the 

4 duties? 

5 A I would agree with that; yes. 

6 Q Okay. Now you've seen the testimony, 

7 and I assume you went over some of the exhibits? 

8 A Some of them; yes. 

9 Q Okay. And you saw the email threads? 

10 A I did. 

11 Q Okay. And you heard my client testify 

12 as far as telephone conversations and stuff, and 

13 you heard Inspector Monfort saying, well, I don't 

14 recall a telephone conversation in July. But 

15 there is a definitive moment, wouldn't you agree, 

16 and that's September 17th, in 2012, where it was 

17 laid out that what Schuman was doing wasn't 

18 legal; correct? 

19 A To answer this as directly as I can, 

20 I had said that at the regional level, one of my 

21 responsibilities is to review enforcement cases 

22 that come out of the field, and determine the --

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1 the applicability of it. 

2 I didn't have any interaction. That 

3 wasn't my role in this case. I was brought in 

4 specifically for this question. Honestly, I would 

5 have to look a little closer, to say 

6 definitively, September 17, 2012, was the day. 

7 Q Sure. And I respect that. What I'm 

8 getting at is: Does it seem to you that between 

9 the operator and FSDO, because there's more than 

10 one inspector involved, there was some 

11 miscommunication going on? 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Relevance. 

13 MR. FERRARA: As far as - I'm sorry, 

14 counsel. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

16 BY MR. FERRARA: 

17 Q You can answer. 

18 A Would you mind stating it, stating 

19 your question again. 

20 Q Okay. You know, based on your 

21 experience, and now you have experience at two 

22 levels, one POI, and now up at Regional, looking 

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1 at the record, the emails, the testimony of 

2 everybody, is it safe to say, in your opinion, as 

3 an expert in interpretation of FARs, did it seem 

4 like everything was in the air, and "up in the 

5 air" until September 1 "!h, 2012? 

6 In other words, there was no 

7 definitive statement by the FAA, one way or 

8 another, that this was illegal, even though there 

9 were questions. I'm just asking for your opinion. 

10 A Based on what I saw with the email 

11 thread, and as a former POI, that did not look 

12 like there was any form of approval whatsoever, 

13 and it didn't look questionable either to me. 

14 Q But do you think there was any form of 

15 disapproval? 

16 A Yes, sir. I think there was -- there 

17 was one of the emails in there, and I-- I'd have 

18 to look through it to find the exact one. But one 

19 of them said you're not yet approved. You know, 

20 we -- we -- the -- one of the inspectors asked 

21 for, asked for exactly what you're asking for, in 

22 writing. 

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1 Q Right. And he also said he was going 

2 to, had to check with Regional to see whether 

3 this type of operation was legal. Do you remember 

4 that? 

5 A Okay. 

6 Q Okay. Now I guess sort of an education 

7 here. Even though these are not Makani Kai's or 

8 Schuman Aviation's passengers-- correct? I mean, 

9 they're Mokulele's passengers. 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q Okay. And it's Mokulele's schedule, 

12 not Schuman Aviation; correct? 

13 A Agreed. 

14 Q Okay. One last question as to your 

15 oplnlon. Is this an area of the law that -- I've 

16 seen a lot of stuff, and I've done some research. 

17 It seems like there's a lot of questions and 

18 answers between operators and FAA, and stuff, 

19 about this area of the law. 

20 I know you won't say it's ambiguous, 

21 but is it subject to a lot of questions involving 

22 interpretation by operators, in your experience? 

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1 It's not exactly a 100 percent clear. 

2 A I given, given these specific 

3 facts, I'd have trouble agreeing with that. And 

4 the reason why is this. When I was asked about 

5 this question, specifically 14 CFR 119.53, Echo, 

6 one of the things I looked at was the proposed 

7 regulaticn in the Federal Register, dated 1995, 

8 and it made it pretty clear in that, that the 

9 plain language in the regulation, as published, 

10 it's pretty straightforward, I think. 

11 Q Okay. I'll agree with that. But 

12 nowhere ln the record is there any statement by 

13 Mr. Monfort, Mr. Bartler, or Mr. Santa Elena, of 

14 what you just said. No one told Mr. Schuman 

15 exactly what you said; is that correct? I mean, 

16 you don't see anything in the record. 

17 A Told specifically 

18 Q What you just told me. That what he 

19 was doing was not, was against regulations. 

20 A I mean, as I recall, without looking 

21 through it, I thought that their response -- and 

22 I don't remember the date. I think it might have 

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1 been that July 20tn email that you guys were 

2 discussing. But I thought it said ln there, at 

3 this time don't go forward because that doesn't 

4 meet the spirit of the regulation. 

5 MR. FERRARA: One moment, Your Honor. 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, may I have 

7 permission to -- the witness does not have the 

8 emails being discussed in front of him. May I 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, there's no 

10 indication they're needed. If you I don't mind 

11 if you take it to the witness. 

12 BY MR. FERRARA: 

13 Q Yes. I don't want to ambush you on 

14 this one. 

15 I think what you're looking at, 

16 looking for is page nine of ten, up on the top. 

17 A Yes, sir. That's what I'm looking 

18 for. 

19 Q So at this point in time, there is 

20 some argument, and I'll admit that you could say 

21 that this is -- that the FSDO is saying, well, 

22 this doesn't applic -- applicable. But the second 

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1 paragraph as far as formal legal 

2 interpretation of Federal Aviation Administration 

3 rule, I will have to call Regional Legal 

4 Department on Monday, how to get this done. 

5 Now after that, there's no 

6 communication between operator and POI: correct? 

7 A Regarding that issue? 

8 Q Yes. 

9 A As far as I can tell; yes. 

10 MR. FERRARA: Okay. I have no further 

11 questions. Thanks. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect based on those 

13 questions? 

14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

15 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

16 Q Inspector Dickinson, would you say 

17 it's okay for an operator to violate the regs on 

18 the assumption that maybe it's okay, and rather 

19 than wait for affirmative approval? 

20 A 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

No. 

MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything else, Mr. 

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1 Ferrara? 

2 MR. FERRARA: One last question. 

3 Inspector 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just one last question. 

5 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 

6 BY MR. FERRARA: 

7 Q Okay. Inspector, if putting yourself 

8 in a position -- you've already been declared an 

9 expert in the interpretation of the FARs, and 

10 based on your experience as a POI, and assuming 

11 the FSDO was on notice, as late as August 6ch as 

12 to what was going on, would you have responded to 

13 the operator, say you can't do it? 

14 Because it's clear on August 6'h, that 

15 this is what he wanted to do. 

16 A Yes. I would have said you can't do 

17 it, and the reason why is because-- like I said, 

18 if you look at FAR 119.53 Echo -- do you mind if 

19 I read the 

20 Q Go ahead. 

21 A Okay. The specific sentence there 

22 that would be controlling. 

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1 "The certificate holder conducting the 

2 substitute operation must conduct that operation 

3 in accordance with the same operations authority 

4 held by the certificate holder.". 

5 Okay. The certificate holder, 

6 Mokulele, was operating under a commuter 

7 authority. So Mr. -- or Schuman Aviation has to 

8 operate under, under commuter authority; okay? 

9 And if you go back a little bit further, in order 

10 to -- then, if you're operating under commuter 

11 authority, 14 CFR 119.49 Alpha 4, specifically 

12 says each airport for scheduled operations has to 

13 be listed ln your op spec. 

14 So as a former PO-- as a POI, I would 

15 have said, no, you can't do it until that op spec 

16 is approved. 

17 Q And I mean you're not denying that he 

18 Schuman Aviation is not a commuter. I mean, 

19 they are a commuter, they do have a commuter 

20 certificate. You're saying that the reason you 

21 would say no to him is because he didn't have 

22 Kona in the op specs? That's it? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 MR. FERRARA: Okay. No further 

3 questions. 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: Nothing else, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Thank you. 

6 Anything else, gentlemen? 

7 MR. FERRARA: Nothing from Respondent, 

8 Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you can step down. 

10 (Witness excused) 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: As I said in my 

12 procedural order, I normally encourage the 

13 parties to brief the issues. I think there's some 

14 issues in this case that deserve expounding upon, 

15 and I've got a significant number of decisions I 

16 have to write, and I can assure you, by the time 

17 I get to this case I'll probably have forgotten 

18 much of what's transpired. 

19 What I'm going to suggest is we've got 

2 0 the holidays coming up, and FAA counsel, most 

21 Government employees are faced with issues of 

22 "use or lose" leave, which I don't want to 

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1 happen. The transcript will probably be ready ln 

2 about two to three weeks. 

3 Mr. Bobertz, when you get it, if 

4 you'll call Mr. Ferrara. As I said earlier this 

5 week, you two work out some sort of a briefing 

6 schedule. I'm going to encourage you not to start 

7 the briefing schedule until some time in January. 

8 There's no pressure to get this to me 

9 because I've got several dozen decisions I've got 

10 to write. 

11 Work out a briefing schedule. 

12 Normally, it's two weeks. The FAA files a brief. 

13 The Respondent replies two weeks later, and then 

14 a rebuttal a week after that. But if that doesn't 

15 work for the two of you, and you can agree, shoot 

16 me an email and I'll put together an order. 

17 If you can't agree, I'll come out with 

18 a two week, two week and a week, but it probably 

19 won't start until February. 

20 My view is there's no sense you two 

21 rushing to get a brief done that I'm not going to 

22 have a chance to look at until down the road. 

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1 Does that work for you, Mr. Bobertz? 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. That's 

3 fine. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Ferrara? 

5 MR. FERRARA: That'll work. I do have 

6 a trial scheduled in the latter part of January, 

7 so I would appreciate a push-back after that. But 

8 I can talk with Mr. Bobertz. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: I mean, I don't have a 

10 problem if you don't start this till February. 

11 You know, as I shared with you earlier, and off 

12 the record, Mr. Bobertz, I've got almost three 

13 dozen decisions that I'm -- what happened is I 

14 had an attorney/adviser who retired 14 months ago 

15 and I'm still catching up. 

16 And I don't have any administrative 

17 help to help me write the decisions. So that's 

18 what I'll be doing the first three months of the 

19 year. 

20 All right. So, you know, work it out. 

21 The two of you appear to me to be quite 

22 professional, and I'm sure you can work the thing 

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1 out. 

2 So having said that, gentlemen, thank 

3 you all. Safe travels from here. Some of us are 

4 going farther than others. But we'll go off the 

5 record. 

6 (Whereupon, at 1:35 p.m., the hearing 

7 was adjourned) 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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A administration 2:3 11 :2 102:7,8,11,16,18 anyway 31:7 

$24,000112:12 61:6 66:14 70:22 103:16 124:7 125:3,7 apartment 103:18 

$28,000111:16 147:3 153:2 125:10,15,19126:6,7 apparently41 :14 42:17 

A-1 3:12 13:16,17 14:5 administrative 1:20 airline 23:8 26:6 27:17 43:8 99:4 

14:8,9,10 8:1319:19 26:11 27:20 69:8 appear31:17158:21 

A-10 3:19 30:21 32:15 108:6 158:16 Airlines 12:18 16:2 APPEARANCES 2:1 

A-11142:13 Administrator 3:11 4:8 24:10 78:14 appeared 8:15 

A-2 3:1317:22 18:1,12 8:19 50:6 65:15 74:11 airman 53:16,16 130:8 applic 152:22 

18:14,21 74:12,17 77:1 79:15 airmen 91:15,20 applicability 148:1 

A-3 3:1317:2218:2,12 89:6 132:12 137:20 airplane 103:3 124:21 applicable 117:11 

20:6,11,14,15,16 Administrator's 13:15 124:22 118:2 152:22 

21:20 13:17 14:5,7,9,10 airplanes 84:11 applied 38:22 63:15 

A-4 3:14 24:16,19 25:3 17:2118:1,12,21 airport7:1812:1 14:22 apply 38:12 

25:4,13,17,18 20:10,16 24:16,19 21:2027:19 37:12,18 appreciate 158:7 

A-5 3:14 24:16,20 25:3 25:3,13,18 26:2,9 38:7,9,19 40:15 61:19 approach 8:22 13:12 

26:3,9 27:3,5,7 45:19 27:7 29:9,13,22 30:4 62:10 87:1 88:20 17:18 24:17 29:11 

A-6 3:15 29:10,13,22 30:11,20 32:14 36:1 93:19103:21104:2 77:3 138:3 

30:2,3,4 42:15 54:2 36:19 40:21 75:16 125:22 126:1 130:12 approval 51 :2 149:12 

79:7,11 89:4116:7 142:7 155:12 153:19 

A-7 3:16,21 30:20 31:2 admissibility 32:6 airport's 38:5 approve 135:17 137:1 

31:14 admissible 19:21 airports 36:20 37:11 approved64:18149:19 

A-8 3:17 32:14 admit19:15 32:10,11 61:20 63:20 64:12,14 155:16 

A-9 3:18 152:20 88:22 93:6,17 122:13 approximate 112:8 

a.m 1:16 4:2 33:21,22 admitted 50:5 75:14 122:15,19 approximately 7:17 

75:2,3 admonished 7 4:3 airworthiness 52:5 10:11 34:17 50:16 

able 76:3 82:8 86:21 admonition 137:16 Ala1:12 66:20102:10103:20 

105:5108:20115:18 advance 47:18 49:1,3 alleged 35:17 40:2 127:20 135:6 

abnormal52:1 49:14,18 43:20 area 41:22 42:1 141:11 

above-entitled 1:15 adversely 5:20 alleges 44:11 150:15,19 

33:20 75:1113:14 affect 5:20 32:10 alleging 133:5 argument 105:15 

132:7 affirmative 35:13 44:9 allow 19:5 120:7 152:20 

absolutely 90:12 95:6 46:18 127:2,7 137:10 allowed 145:20 arrange 6:22 

95:13 107:2,15 153:19 aloha 79:17 arrangement 120:20 

134:20 137:4 AFS 136:18 Alpha 22:18,18 125:2 arrangements 52:22 

accept 141:11 afternoon 113:22 155:11 arrivals 28:19 

access 23:9,22 45:2 agitated 106:1 altitudes 60:19 asked 15:10 16:4 17:7 

69:20 115:8131:7,10 ago52:11102:15134:9 ambiguous 150:20 40:7,16 42:7 49:5 

136:8,13,17 158:14 ambush 152:13 51:255:1663:16 

accessed 124:16 agree73:18 98:13 amend43:1160:13 69:14 89:2 95:2 96:7 

accident 67:3 126:9 146:22147:5 amended 36:2,10 101:17,19102:1,2 

accidents 11 :4 147:15151:11157:15 amendment38:13 39:1 105:19109:12110:9 

accompanied 8:3 67:11 157:17 42:9 60:15 61:3,18 123:15 124:9125:18 

accompanying 67:7 agreed 92:9 119:15 64:1 120:8 129:19 130:1 131:6 

accountants 128:8 123:3129:6150:13 AMERICA 1:1 134:22 135:6,7,8 

accumulated 22:9 agreeing 151:3 amount69:11 70:11 149:20,21 151:4 

acknowledged 47:3 agreement 61:22 62:6,9 95:16 112:6 asking 30:17 34:10 

64:12 ahead 75:8 118:14 Angeles 2:6 60:15 64:11 85:15 

acoustics 6:14 121:11122:4137:7 animal69:13 98:18111:16116:9 

action 108:6 139:15 142:3 154:20 announced 99:3 116:14118:20119:9 

activities 11:4 ahold 130:9 answer 52:6 62:15 92:4 119:13,17121:10,11 

actual21 :4,5 22:7 24:9 air 63:20 85:13 87:13 93:13121:21139:15 122:7 149:9,21 

26:5,18 28:16,19 49:2 95:15118:12135:8 141:21 147:19 148:17 ass 122:8 

53:16 55:21 138:21 ,22 139:3 answered 49:6 assaulted 55:20 

add110:17 149:4,5 answering 101:13 assert 76:2,10 

address 81:3 aircraft 21 :7 22:7,16,19 answers 150:18 assistance 82:6 120:22 

addressed 61:9 45:3,13 48:10,11,14 anticipating 36:16 assume 43:4 147:7 

addresses 5:17 51:16,20 52:2,4 60:20 anybody 5:3 33:12 83:1 assuming 154:10 

adjourned 159:7 62:17 70:2 100:7 92:12 96:16 131:18 assumption 153:18 

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assure 156:16 52:8,14 70:5 71:21 16:1317:17,20 18:4 115:20117:6118:3 

ATP 85:1 82:8 94:7 104:1,6 18:20 19:5,10 20:3,9 119:7121:22125:16 

attempt 88:8 105:3 108:22 109:6,6 20:20 22:15,21 23:11 126:17130:9132:12 

attend 136:10 109:7,8 113:2,3,8,10 24:4,14,22 25:11,22 133:10134:4,17,19 

attending 136:12 113:12119:19120:14 26:7,16 27:6,11 29:7 134:20,21 136:16 

attention 54:1 79:16 125:22130:12132:13 29:15,20 30:8,14 137:3,9153:3157:4 

85:14 136:21 139:15 155:9 31:16,19 32:18,19 called 9:12 16:17 17:6 

attitude 56:22 backed 15:15 37:15 39:9 46:3,10 52:8 54:6,17 65:21 

attorney 16:13103:8 background 38:11 98:5 49:5 55:10 56:19 70:7 73:6 77:10 83:10 

131·.9 bad 109:15 58:1159:1560:9,11 84:3 88:8 94:5 103:19 

attorney/adviser Ballpark 65:10 61:8 65:1,4,11,15 105:8114:17117:15 

158:14 Bartler 3:4 8:3 12:7,7 66:8,10 70:17 74:1,5 130:5,7,18 136:20 

attorneys 141 :2 12:2115:4 47:20,20 74:11 79:6 82:19 93:9 138:6 

August 43:7 47:4 51:9 47:22 48:1,1,16,17 96:9 112:16,21 calling 76:19,21 121:11 

81:12 82:13 91:3 50:20 65:16,20 66:5 113:18,19,21126:16 125:12,16 

118:20121:14122:2 66:11 70:21 97:4 126:22 127:10,14 calls 8:19 65:15 93:9 

135:21154:11,14 109:9110:10131:5,5 128:21 130:22 131 :3 118:12 137:21 

authority 7:1914:16 151:13 131:12,15,22132:2 Cantu 16:10 67:14 

62:22 122:12 155:3,7 Bartlet47:19 132:10,11 133:3,21 capabilities 110:3 

155:8,11 base 102:9,12 137:13,14,20138:16 car 67:18 

authorization 56:10 based 19:16 26:13 141:3,13 142:9,17,22 Caravan20:8 62:19 

93:17 61:19 82:2 89:15,16 146:5148:12152:6 care 23:4 

authorizations 71:10 95:4 97:11 106:20 153:15,21 156:4 careful98:21 

authorize 42:11 107:8108:21131:1 157:3 158:1,2,8,12 cargo 85:13 

authorized 15:1 36:21 148:20 149:10153:12 book 104:2 carried 51:15 64:8 

87:12 93:16118:13 154:10 books 45:8,21 101:9 carrier 87:13 135:8 

120:10 133:10 basically 67:18 68:1 bottom79:16116:8 138:21 139:1 ,3 146:2 

authorizing 62:1 69:6 70:10 75:10 Bowens 142:21 carries 81:8 

available 16:19 17:7 139:6 Box 2:5 carry6:1 63:1142:19 

49:11105:11144:15 basis27:16 86:3121:1 Branch 138:21 139:1 case 4:3 7:16 31 :12,22 

Avenue 2:13 140:17 break4:19,21 74:16 32:3 74:13 75:11 78:9 

aviation 1:5 2:3 4:4,11 behalf2:2,104:11 86:8 112:17113:1132:4 109:19111:17122:22 

7:17,21 8:1,19 10:8 belief 87:10 111:4 brief 75:6 89:8 156:13 126:9 129:7 143:4,16 

10:16 11:2,4,10,12,22 believe9:5 14:1817:15 157:12,21 144:13 146:1 148:3 

12:17,22 14:2 15:5 35:15 38:15 43:17 briefing 157:5,7,11 156:14,17 

21:7 24:6 26:18 28:5 45:6 47:12 51:2 67:13 briefly 4:18 7:15 10:13 cases 147:21 

29:4,6 34:14 35:16 70:11 81:20 82:10 18:5 27:12 60:9 66:22 Casey 110:4 

36:6 38:12 39:17 87:1 88:5 89:4 106:4 84:6 catching 158:15 

45:22 53:15 55:3,9 106:10111:6112:1,2 bring 52:3 128:18 categorical39:3 42:9 

56:8 57:15 58:1,7 112:4 114:16 123:13 brought 45:4 148:3 categories 144:3 

61:6,17 62:16 66:13 126:1130:1133:4 Bruce 55:19,22 57:21 category 144:2 

66:17 67:2,9,20 70:16 141:15,22 143:2 building 99:5 124:7 cause 44:18 109:14 

70:22 72:7 78:2,22 believed 16:2 68:16 burden 126:19 144:7 

84:3,7,8108:12117:5 120:16141:17 business 6:6 36:7,9 cc'ed 136:2 

137:21138:19139:21 better20:2 71:11 85:7 37:14 39:19 84:15,18 cease111:12 

139:22 146:2 147:3 107:11,12 85:5 99:18 109:18 ceased 75:19 97:15 

150:12 153:2155:7 big 106:2 115:13 107:6 

155:18 birth 5:17 cell114:22 115:1,3,5,6 

Aviation's48:10 150:8 birthday 41:22 c 115:7,9,11130:10 

aware 36:5 46:22 47:13 bit21:871:19 94:198:5 c 1:19 3:1 133:11 136:16,21 

63:15 75:20 140:13 155:9 C070 14:18 122:12 centered 36:13 

AWP-7.7 2:5 black6:1 8:15 CA2:6 certain 27:18,18,18,19 

Blue 34:16 35:8 calculated 112:11 49:4 51:7,8 106:13 

B Blvd1:12 calendar 97:1 120:1,3133:14 

B118:13 Bobertz 2:3 4:7,7 7:13 call8:1,16 56:1165:13 134:20 

B-A-R-T-L-E-R 66:6 7:15 8:16,18 9:1,3 70:14 76:14,19 83:4 Certainly 40:19 140:16 

back 12:1415:3 41:16 10:1,2111:613:11,14 88:3,8 91:22 99:15 141:2 

41:19 45:4,16 47:16 13:1914:4,1416:11 105:14115:5,15,18 certificate 23:5,6,6,7, 12 

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23:14 67:5 72:8 87:8 code 21:21 computer22:2 80:13 controlling 154:22 

87:9 155:1,4,5,20 collect 126:1 132:5 124:14 convenient 5:8 

certificates 84:22 come 7:12 17:8 45:15 computers 136:12 conversation 15:18 

certification 11 :5 67:3 51:20 76:17 99:13,17 concern 23:12,14,17 68:5 97:8,9,14 99:7 

136:4 139:12,14 147:22 88:11 103:1 100:16101:14114:8 

Cessna 20:8 157:17 concerned 38:6 118:17133:6147:14 

CF 136:3 comes 7:10 concerning 40:14 50:8 conversations 43:15 

CFI136:3 comfort 112:17 52:19 58:3 73:14 43:22 58:5 70:9 86:9 

CFR 142:3,10,16 151:5 coming 18:5 78:6 92:4 75:16 85:16,19 86:9 96:20110:20133:12 

155:11 105:9 156:20 86:17101:8 147:12 

chance 40:22 79:20 commencing 114:10 concluding 112:10 convince 108:20 

81 :5 132:5 157:22 commended 59:1 conclusion 14:19 74:4 cooperative 98:11 

change88:15120:11 comments 19:17 83:2 92:7 131:18 copied 89:20 90:18,20 

122:18 commercial23:8 85:2 conduct7:1911:8,13 copies 102:9 

changes 31:12 commercial~related 11:1512:315:1,8 copy 6:20,20 30:15,19 

characterize 41 :10 34:14 42:12 48:22 56:10 31:1141:17 43:4 

charge 94:16 common 107:10 67:15 68:18 95:15 73:11116:20124:11 

Charles 16:10 67:14 communicated 105:10 101:5,15109:17 142:9 

Charlie 12:3 14:1,22 106:6 114:5117:1133:11 cordial58:21 59:3 

36:3 39:2 44:6 communication 71 :20 134:13 155:2 98:12 

charter 13:916:1 68:17 75:15 86:12 96:20 conducted 7:17 8:2 cordially 53:22 

68:20 69:9,12 72:5,10 97:20 107:14153:6 11:22 21:6 25:9 26:18 correct17:5 31:18 

92:5 100:22 121:1 communications 49:22 27:21 28:5 29:3,5 35:19 37:3,7 41:4,8,9 

chatting 99:22 89:15 39:3 46:14 59:2 111:9 44:8 47:6 48:7,12,20 

check 7:9 31:9 53:16,16 commuter 7:18,19 122:5143:3 144:14 48:21 49:4 51:15,16 

71:18 91:15,20 130:8 11:2112:4,11,13,18 145:14 54:5 55:3,6 56:18 

136:11150:2 13:6,7 15:1,9 21:5 conducting 12:17 21:2 57:4 59:6 62:11 '17 

checked 88:1 26:5 27:16,22 36:7,8 50:12,14,18 55:21 63:5,8 72:10 73:7 

checking 92:18 36:12 37:19 39:4 93:18 96:18 97:10 79:9 81:4 88:2,17 

chief74:13 91:14,19 40:1150:1956:14 109:20120:17 136:3 90:16 91:4 92:9,10 

119:11 130:7 57:1 58:1 62:21 63:3 141:17,18 145:3,9 95:21104:13,14 

choice 123:7 64:3,5 68:17,20 69:1 155:1 119:5120:13,15 

chris@ferraralawha ... 69:7 72:7,20 84:18 conduit 139:7 122:16,20123:1,16 

2:17 85:4 86:3 87:8 93:15 conference 90:10 130:19135:15137:9 

Christopher 2:12 4:10 93:16 100:22 118:10 confined 34:15 146:17,18 147:18 

circumstances 78:8 122:13,16,20,22 confirmed 69:19 150:8,12 151:15 

95:5 133:11,18134:13 conformity 75:20 153:6 

cite 142:16 135:1,3,11,18143:11 confusing 145:13 corrected 126:4 

cities 15:1 143:14,16 144:2,5,7 consider 39:7,15 58:8 correctly 71:22 144:13 

City 37:22 42:13 144:22 145:1,2,3,9 58:17 correspondence 44:1 

civil45:18110:18 146:3,4 155:6,8,10,18 consideration 27:2 89:10 

111:16127:16 155:19,19 considered 144:22 corroborate 19:12 

civilian 35:2 companies 35:1 47:12 145:16,17 corroborated 47:13 

claim 128:5 company 1 :6 56:4 59:4 considering 27:3 corroborates 19:14 

clarification 94:2 75:19 84:3,4,16 95:6 consult 33:5 corroboration 20:1 

clarify 62:15 76:22 98:6,16111:18112:8 contact 16:10 50:8 counsel2:4 4:5 9:21 

108:11121:17137:6 118:11127:17,19 85:18 96:15115:12 24:3 66:7 77:19 83:19 

clarity 94:1 compensation 112:6 contacted 16:13 85:21 103:11110:20,21 

classes 136:10 Complainant 2:2 104:1 130:5131:20132:18 

classified 143:4 Complaint 35:18 43:20 contacting 16:17103:8 138:14148:14156:20 

clear35:10 96:22114:4 44:10 106:21107:1 103:11 counsel's 129:5 

129:8,9 151:1,8 110:14 contains 45:20 couple 39:6 52:20 61:9 

154:14 compliance 16:16 content 81 :6 69:15 95:10,10 

clerk 5:3 complied 87:22 100:9 contention 126:5 108:10 128:13 129:1 

client 5:20 19:4 33:5 106:18 108:2 continue 109:21121:6 course 35:21 48:16 

39:8 47:1147:11 comply 8:1 87:11 107:7 contracted 47:11 72:6 91:7 113:6 

close 87:5 129:17 contractor 46:8 129:22 

closer 10:19 148:5 components 143:17 control140:19 court 1:11 5:6,9 6:21 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
163 

26:12 30:18 31:2,7,13 declaration 127:1 digital6:19 door 67:21 

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courtroom 1:10 146:16 definitely 126:14 79:16 83:20 85:14 downstairs 51:18 

cover 122:8 definition 145:8,21 114:1123:13133:2,5 downtown 60:2 

created 56:7 109:2 definitions 145:8 134:6138:1,15 dozen 157:9 158:13 

criteria 144:19 definitive 147:15 149:7 directed41:16 80:21 drawers 31 :6 

cross 32 82:18112·.15 definitively 148:6 116:19 drill 23:20 

112:19113:10134:6 delay 1 04:22 directing 54:1 drive 73:9 103:21 104:1 

146:7 deliver 30:19 54:8 directly 43:9 86:13 125:22 126:3 

CROSS-EXAMINATI. .. 106:17 105:5116:15136:17 drop 106:12,13 

34:5 70:19 113:20 delivered 17:10,16 136:20147:19 dropped 53:9 

134:2 146:9 delivery 52:19 53:20 director 25:7 84:4 drove 15:5 67:19 

CSOs 5:1 demand 68:20 72:10 86:20 124:4 due 55:19 69:5 87:15 

cumulative 19:1,11,19 87:2 88:15103:10 disability 6:11 108:6 127:18 

26:13 118:10135:4,8 disadvantage 110:3 DULY 9:13 65:22 77:11 

current 120:20 140:4 145:19 disagree 90:4 83:11 132:22 138:7 

currently 78:19 111:20 denial16:11 54:13 disagreed 15:9 dumb 124:2 

111 :21 denied 13:7 45:2 54:20 disapproval149:15 duties 10:14,1511:7,9 

customer 39:11 87:19 59:8135:3,11,14 discuss 33:12 59:14 67:1,2110:10140:10 

customers 64:10 69:6 deny 108:4131:7133:9 65:3 74:3 82:21 83:1 146:21 147:4 

denying 69:20 131:10 107:11 111:1113:5 

D 155:17 131:17137:17141:1 E 

D 2:12 departed 41:22 70:16 discussed 67:13 68:1 E 3:1 

D-i-c-k-i-n-s-o-n 138:13 Department 1 :1 117:6 87:3 90:9 91:15,20 E-D-W-A-R-D 77:17 

daily 15:11 20:7 48:13 153:4 152:8 E-L-E-N-A 77:1 8 

54:5140:17,21 departure 58:8 discussing 152:2 earlier6:1614:15 36:3 

Dallas 136:6 departures 28:18 discussion 58:2 68:12 44:19,19 49:17 112:6 

Dallas-Fort 136:4 depending 73:8 102:18 91:11100:18118:6,8 119:20 134:7 135:7 

Darryl25:7 26:4 86:19 depends 72:11,11,12 dispatched 100:8 157:4 158:11 

database 23:9,20 72:12,13,16 disregard 95:14 early 50:15 63:7 

date 7:8 14:2 18:19 depreciation 128:10 distinct 75:21 easily 124:15 

28:2 43:7 45:1 51:10 derailed 111:13 District1:1110:666:15 easy 60:20 

56:16 58:21,22 60:4 describe 10:13 27:13 76:13 78:3 Echo 151:5154:18 

78:19,20 81:21 82:12 66:22 71:16 72:3 84:6 dive 85:11 economical62:21 

85:20 97:19 114:9 85:4 98:3 114:4 diversifying 85:11 economy 85:10 111:20 

121:6128:4130:11 139:17 Division 138:21 127:19 

134:21151:22 deserve 156:14 Docket4:4 Ed 47:7 79:17 89:20 

dated41:3 81:12151:7 desk 15:7,1517:16 document 13:21 14:20 90:22 120:19121:2 

dates 5:16 21:9,10,15 destination 93:6 18:15 19:1 20:6,22 122:3 

51:7 88:4 97:1 117:17 detail21 :8 117:22 21:18 25:5 26:4,13,21 education 150:6 

136:5 determine 147:22 27:13 29:17 31:5 Edward 3:5 12:16 42:20 

day 10:15,15 22:5 45:11 deviations 67:5 42:21 60:22 61:4 77:9,16121:13 

71:22 98:15 10422 Dickinson 3:8 137:22 documents 5:12 30:17 effect 134:11 

106:13,19 114:12 138:5,12,17141:4,15 32:5,11 48:5 54:4 effort 95:22 121:16 

125:8 146:16148:6 143:1 153:16 70:12,15 efforts 111:7 121:20 

day/night 84:11,12 dictated 87:20,20,21 doing 9:7 13:7,8 15:21 eight 22:6,11 34:17 

days 17:15 27:21 41:21 difference 69:1 93:14 50:14 68:9,12 79:22 35:7 60:22 62:13 81:9 

52:2162:1387:21 different 22:19 28:6 85:7 94:18 107:5,16 139:21 

deal19:22 21:11,12,16 35:12 39:21 56:22 111:8119:17120:16 either 19:8 20:1 84:20 

108:8 140:9,17 62:21 63:12 69:13 122:9,22 147:17 85:10 88:6 92:12,22 

December 1 :8 71:9 92:21 129:22 151:19 158:18 106:10130:13139:9 

decided 91:22 114:5 differentiate 28:9 dollars 128:13,14,16 139:13 143:10 144:8 

decision 31:9 91:16 difficult 37:18 64:2,13 Don 2:3 4:716:10,13 145:4149:13 

decisions 156:15 157:9 difficulties 38:1,8 don.bobertz@faa.gov elaborate 140:13 143:5 

158:13,17 difficulty 6:17 2:7 electronic 104:5 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
164 

elements 76:12 event 19:14 50:9 53:18 exhibits 3:10 5:14 7:1 41:1154:1157:16 

Elena 3:5 12:16 29:19 58:9 60:21 18:1,12 24:16,19 61 :21 63:9 92:3 103:7 

42:20 43:3,9,9 46:16 events 19:2 35:17 73:5 30:12 31:20 32:12,13 106:4116:11117:4 

46:19,21 47:7 50:2 76:9 78:8 89:16 34:9,11 79:3 116:4 145:7,18 147:12 

51:1,2 76:20 77:9,17 eventually 16:2117:12 147:7 148:13 153:1,9 

77:22 79:10 89:18 Evergreen 34:18 35:6 exist 37:19 154:18 

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92:13,22 94:5 96:6 113:13149:2 expense 128:10 142:10 149:3 154:9 

119:12121:13122:3 everybody's 113:9 expenses 128:8 farther 159:4 

135:22151:13 everything's 9:4 experience 34:14,15 fast 60:3 

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42:19 43:3,8 46:22 19:7,9,20 20:2,12,15 107:9110:2139:17 faxed 104:4 

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80:21 81:6,15,21 25:21 26:9,14 27:4,10 148:21 150:22154:10 February 106:21 

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116:9,15,16117:13 76:5,10 77:1 82:2 explained 50:17 68:22 117:5147:2151:7 

118:20119:12120:18 evidenced 62:12 73:4 108:1 153:2 

121:13,17122:3 evidentiary 31 :4 expounding 156:14 feel5:20 23:16 76:8 

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147:9149:10152:1 exactly72:18 73:16 F feeling 6:5 92:20 

157:16 101:1102:3124:8,10 F-a-double 4:17 100:16101:11 

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emergency 12:15 16:15 134:7138:15146:8 97:20 104:8 110:21 4:17 8:7,9,12 9:1 

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employ 48:21 EXAMINED 9:13 65:22 121:16,21 129:4 20:13 23:16 24:2 

employed 10:4,5,9 77:1183:11132:22 136:9 139:20141:2 25:14,15 26:10 30:1 

66:12,13,18 78:5 138:7 142:6 149:7 150:18 31:1 32:5,7,22 33:3,7 

138:18 exception 51:22,22 156:20157:12 33:18 34:3,4,6 39:14 

employee 23:8 56:6 73:15 FAA-2013-1080 1:6 40:18,20 46:4,7,15 

employees 55:13 96:1 excerpt 32:1 faced 156:21 47:21 49:12 56:2 57:2 

156:21 excerpts 31:20 facilities 62:2,3 64:6 58:12,15 59:19,22 

employing 46:4 exchange 117:13 facility 126:8,13,15 61:9,14 64:19 70:18 

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enclosing 42:19 excuse 10:18 29:3 55:19 59:1 94:13 96:5 75:4,6,9 76:18 77:4 

encourage 156:12 53:13 57:16 122:8 106:14 134:12 135:2 77:21 79:8 80:19 

157:6 excused 65:5,8 7 4:8 140:10 82:16 83:3,4,21 93:12 

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enforcement 140:11 exhibit 3:21 7:5 9:2 facts31:11151:3 127:5 129:1 130:21 

147:21 13:16,17 14:5,7,9,10 failed 7:22 131:21134:1,3 

engage 95:7 17:2218:13,14,21 failure 60:21 137:11141:7,8146:6 

engine 60:20,21 20:6,10,11,14,16 fair38:18 41:14 60:6 146:7,10 148:13,16 

entire 5:12 21:20 25:3,4,13,17,18 102:20 107:18 152:5,12 153:10 

environment 6:4 56:7 26:3,9 27:5,7 29:10 fairly 36:13 107:9 154:1,2,6 156:2,7 

109:3 29:13,22 30:4,20 fairness 19:7 157:4 158:4,5 

escalated 108:18 31:19 32:1,14 36:19 fall 144:4 field 139:7,9,11,16 

ESQ 2:3,12 40:21 41:15 42:15,15 falls 144:1 146:12 147:22 

essentially 139:8 45:19 49:20 50:6 53:5 familiar 35:22 78:7 fifth 1 09:20 

established 84:16 54:2 76:22 79:7,11,14 89:13 figure 130:11 

estimated 28:18,18 81:14 82:22 89:4,9,16 familiarity 140:14 file 51:17 

evening 135:10 116:7 142:7,12 far35:10 38:1,5,7 41:7 filed 106:21 110:14 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
165 

files 12:1157:12 96:14 give 16:14 19:16,22 132:10,15,18137:13 

film59:14,17109:20 follow-up 52:18 22:1724:1127:3 137:15 138:2,9,14 

filming 59:20 followed 42:1 90:13 32:11 47:17 48:8 141:6,10142:8,15,18 

final 32:1 FOLLOWS 9:14 66:1 49:18 54:18 70:10 146:6148:15152:9 

finalized 61 :5 77:12 83:12 133:1 77:22 78:18111:7 153:12,22 154:4 

finally 38:19 52:21 138:8 131:11132:5139:15 156:5,9,11 158:4,9 

109:6117:8 forget 23:5 given 115:11 123:7 government 67:18 81:2 

financial5:18 111:19 forgotten 156:17 124:16 144:12,12 97:2115:7136:11 

112:3 form 44:2 87:4 105:3 151:2,2 156:21 

find 53:6 99:1 103:15 149:12,14 gives 145:7 Government's 34:11 

104:5 105:1 108:3 formal8:13 26:12 56:10 glide 60:20 Grace 25:7 26:5 86:19 

117:10118:1130:9 99:14 117:4 153:1 go 4:20 5:2,5 27:20 87:6 136:1 

130:13 149:18 formally 122:18 28:3 33:16 44:4,5 Grace's 87:11 

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158:3 forth 71:21 75:8 94:9 99:21 113:3 greater 144:17 145:11 

finish 4:22 forward 76:17 81:8 113:9,11,13118:14 grievous 16:12 

Finished 108:9 117:2 133:8 152:3 118:22 120:14133:8 gross 112:7 128:2,7 

first8:17 9:12,16 28:7,9 forwarded 43:4 137:7139:15 142:3 grossed 127:19 

29:1,2 43:2 50:13 found 12:12 50:13 51:5 152:3 154:20 155:9 guess78:12 80:13,20 

65:21 66:3,6 69:21 97:13110:9130:17 159:4 94:15,17 104:15 

76:14 77:10,14,14 four 28:15 36:3 44:19 goes 6:7 19:12 127:2 110:15,20114:3 

83:10,14,16 85:18,21 66:20 145:20 going 5:5 6:14,1916:15 142:4 150:6 

90:19 99:7 100:1 free 5:20 7 4:4 19:16,22 23:20 28:2 guesstimate 112:19 

131:9 135:5138:7,10 frequency 143:22 32:1133:1134:1,10 guidance 135:9 

158:18 144:16 145:10 49:3 54:8,12 60:17 Gustav 3:6 83:9,16 

fits 31:5 frequently 140:8,9,22 65:2,10 74:14,16,21 guys 99:9 152:1 

five 10:11 34:13 42:14 Friday 45:11 135:9 79:6 82:21 85:15 

42:22 43:1 ,2 112:20 front8:1615:717:16 87:1794:16109:22 H 

120:18 132:4140:2 34:9 67:13,20 79:3 110:7112:20113:2,4 h-a-n 138:13 

144:1,17145:2,11,15 89:5 116:5 152:8 113:11123:2,18 half10:11 34:13 36:9 

146:13 front-line 16:9 50:20 148:11 150:1 154:12 52:10,11 54:7,17 

Five-0 109:19 55:15 58:6 70:6 73:5 156:19 157:6,21 70:15 79:17 106:16 

fixed 37:14 84:9,18,19 FSDO 17:16 50:1 56:10 159:4 hand 5:7 8:22 9:9 65:18 

85:2,9,11 73:4 89:11 92:12 good 10:2 33:7 34:7,8 77:7 83:7 138:3 

flew24:12 62:16 109:13 96:16,21 98:18 99:12 98:9113:22 handed 18:10 25:1 

145:1 105:3108:17109:1 GOODWIN 1:19 4:3,9 handle 62:4 103:12 

flight 10:615:11 20:7 117:10 130:16 148:9 4:12,15,18 8:7,11,21 139:13 

21:17 22:9 26:20 152:21 154:11 9:7,15,2113:1314:7 happen 28:2 77:5 157:1 

28:16 40:1 54:5 66:14 full9:16 31:7142:16 17:19 19:5,15 20:14 happened 7:9 13:4 15:6 

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78:3 95:7 97:1 138:20 64:19,21 65:1 70:17 24:3,18 25:14,16 68:21 69:18 70:4 

143:20 73:20 76:14 82:16 26:22 29:12 30:2,13 89:16106:14158:13 

flights 7:18,2211:16 88:2112:13121:16 31 :1 '17 32:4,8,18,22 happens 58:10 

21:4,6,9 22:5 24:9,12 121:20128:21130:21 33:4,9,16,19 34:1 hard 6:20 41:17 116:20 

25:9 26:18 28:3,4 131:12132:22133:1 37:16 39:10 40:19 Harding 2:13 

29:3,5 37:2 40:3,3,6 137:11146:5153:10 46:6,11 49:7 55:11 hate 112:18 

44:12,14 45:9 69:15 155:9 156:2 56:20 58:14 59:16 Hawaii 1:13 59:14 

75:13,19 86:7,10,13 60:8 61:12 64:21 65:2 109:19 

86:17,22 87:20 91:13 G 65:9,13,17 66:2,7 Hawaii's 111:20 

91:18 95:5 97:5 125:4 G-Car 13:1 70:18 73:22 74:2,9,14 Hawaiian 34:16 35:8 

133:7141:18143:15 G-U 83:16 75:4,8 76:16 77:2,6 37:6,8 

144:1,14 general1 0:16 11:3 67:2 77:13,19 79:22 80:5,7 headquarters 139:8,14 

flown 37:8 88:14 93:8 139:22 143:19 144:15 80:10,15 82:18,20 hear 6:13 

fly 14:18 37:18 38:14 gentlemen 137:19 83:6,13,19 93:11 heard 23:13 90:7 101:6 

42:5 61:18 87:7 94:21 156:6 159:2 96:11112:15,18,22 133:4141:16146:15 

95:3 getting 38:8 63:22 113:17 126:20 127:6 146:19147:11,13 

flying 37:6 38:1 44:21 104:5109:14113:8 127:12 128:22130:22 hearing 1:16 5:6 6:11 

47:5 85:19 95:19 96:3 120:11 123:20 148:8 131:13,16,22132:3 6:17 8:13 19:20 24:1 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
166 

65:4 74:4 79:15 83:2 73:9 104:20 105:6 inquired 12:10 39:20 interpret 39:17 92:21 

113:6131:19137:18 106:15,16115:13 86:2,21 104:18 106:3 

159:6 House 1:11 inquiries 40:13 104:13 interpretation 31:20 

hearings 1:2 6:15 hundred 128:13,16 inquiring 41 :6 82:4 41:20 45:22 88:12 

hearsay 26:12 hurry 106:2 inquiry 63:7,9 93:19 92:1 94:2 108:2 111:8 

held 69:3,8 155:4 hurt 80:18 100:10 116:11117:5,10 

helicopter 85:5,6 hyphenated 80:2 inspect 48:5 49:10 118:2,9121:1,3,12 

111:22 hyphenation 80:7 inspected 64:7 149:3 150:22 153:2 

helicopters 34:18 35:8 inspection 11:9,9,16 154:9 

84:9,10 136:4 ------- 43:5 48:4 49:19 55:14 interpretations 31:18 

help 5:8,9 39:16 85:21 107:6 55:21,22 67:3,8,15 interpreted 39:22 

87:14 91:17121:9 idea 42:4 46:12 54:10 123:12 interrupt 142:2 

142:11 147:1 158:17 124:8 inspector 8:4,19 10:3,8 introduced 7:7 

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helped 39:13 identification 13:15,18 13:20 14:15 15:418:6 investigation 8:3 21:1 

helping 59:1 14:8,12 17:21 18:3,11 18:10,19 20:5,21 24:5 27:14 45:18 46:13 

Hl2:15 18:14 20:11,15,18 25:1 27:12 29:16,19 48:20,22 58:19 67:4,4 

hide 95:19 108:4 22:3,4 24:15,21 25:2 34:7 37:10 39:8,13 100:11101:16 

high 64:4 106:5 111 :20 25:12,16,20 26:2,8 43:3,9 46:16,21 48:1 investigator 48:19 

127:16 27:4,9 29:9,10,14,21 48:16,17 49:9 50:1,22 invited 67:21 99:6 

higher 69:3,5,8 72:9 30:2,6,11,22 31:3,14 51:2 55:2 56:8 60:12 involved 88:19 125:4 

hindsight 129:19 32:12,16 61:8,15,16 65:16 148:10 

hiring 46:8 identified 24:8 38:17 66:11,17 67:8,12 68:7 involves 45:17 

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Honestly 148:4 immediately 45:3 97:14 92:12,13,17 93:5 96:5 124:20 

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26:16 27:6 29:8,20 included 59:12 93:7 inspectors 7:20 8:2 156:13,14,21 

30:9,10 32:19,21 income 127:18 48:22 97:3 100:19 It'd 128:1 

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132:17 134:1137:14 informal 8:12,14 instructor 53:14,15 55:14 66:22 67:2 

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hours 16:16,22 17:2,3,6 initially 7:22 86:2 interest 128:9 109:15,22 110:7 

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54:7,17 70:13,16 73:7 inquire 33:1 40:2,4 92:8 Internet 6:8,9 31:10 132:13 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
167 

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156:11 158:4,9 141:1 142:4,4 146:20 129:18130:2,3 157:22 

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Kai 99:5 39:3,4 40:6,15,16,17 116:21 150:17,21 

Kai's 150:7 42:6,8,12 43:5,11,16 letters 98:17 Iotta 94:11 

Kalaupapa 36:15 37:12 44:4,6,21 45:4 50:12 level64:8 69:5 72:8,15 Lum 58:3 109:13 

37:20 64:14 50:14,19 51:4 61:19 147:20 lunch4:20 113:1 

Kalaupapa's 37:17 61:21 62:4,8 63:9,11 levels62:21 63:1,13 

Kapalua 86:5 63:18 64:1,16 68:3,14 148:22 M 

Kawehi 58:3 109:13 82:6 86:8,17 87:1 liked 16:3 59:8 M-o-n-f9:19 

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102:8,9110:8124:11 96:19 97:11 100:2 line 7:7 35:11 67:14 106:12 

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kept 92:3 95:20 102:8 155:22 lines 121:7 magic 6:1 

102:12 Kona's 38:9 list 14:22 60:18 76:20 maintenance 15:10 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
168 

51:18 52:20 87:2 42:18 47:17,18 49:2 121:3 123:4 125:4 N-a-t 138:12 

101:9 52:7 59:12 72:3 91:8 136:1141:18145:3 nail128:10 

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making 123:8133:13 101:4107:17 Mokulele's 26:19 45:20 9:18 29:5 66:3,4,6,6 

man 139:8 meetings 110:5 91:17 150:9,11 77:14,15,16 80:1 

manage 34:21 71:6 memory 47:15 Molokai 36:14,14 86:4 83:14,15,16,17,18 

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35:11 67:5 84:2 86:16 memos 98:15 moment 30:8 40:18 name's 66:5 

91:12 mention 49:21 50:2 58:16 89:8 102:1,2 Nathan 3:8 137:22 

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73:5 86:20 108:17,21 50:7 72:3 73:3 97:9 147:15 152:5 near6:17 

108:22 109:12 112:5138:22143:2 Monday45:12 81:12 necessarily 26:19 

managers 58:6,6 110:4 144:6 117:6 153:4 72:15 

manifests 101:9 met45:12 67:22 money94:1195:16 necessary 5:14 

manual56:12,13 57:7,9 methodology 7:2 123:3,8 need21:1661:2 73:11 

57:12 59:4,7 71:7 middle 83:17 139:8 Monfort 3:3,7 8:2,4,20 74:5 79:4 106:15 

108:16,21 109:4 mike 6:18 10:20 22:18 9:11,1910:313:20 108:10 120:21125:2 

110:7 22:18 125:2 14:15 18:6,10 20:5,21 129:8,8 130:8,10 

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marked 13:14,1814:11 million 127:21 128:1 34:7 60:12 61:15 67:8 needed 43:11 48:5 

17:2018:2,11,13 mind 51:10 93:1,22 67:12 68:7,9,11 71:1 61:22 62:5 86:1 88:15 

20:10,17 24:15,20 100:5101:12103:7 81:19,22 88:4 89:17 91:22 93:6 94:1 103:8 

25:2,12,19 26:1,8 109:14123:18148:18 89:22 91:8,22 92:13 103:22 104:4 115:9 

27:8 29:8,14,21 30:5 152:10154:18 92:17 93:4,5 97:4 121:9152:10 

30:10,21 32:15 53:5 minute 22:17 32:20 101:12104:11105:6 needs 5:7 39:18 80:14 

142:6 33:1,5 69:16 103:20 106:1108:12114:17 Negative 57:16 

marker6:2 132:1 142:2,15 115:9117:14118:18 negotiations 111 :2 

markings 7:11 minutes 16:14 33:10,10 118:22119:8123:7 net112:8128:2,3 

math 94:18112:10 33:13,17 50:1665:11 124:17130:18131:5 never40:16 46:19 50:7 

matter 1:4,15 23:6,17 70:11 74:15,17,22 132:13,20 133:4,22 56:15 99:14133:18 

31:4 33:20 59:1 75:1 112:20125:21 147:13 151:13 134:13135:17 

96:5 100:4 106:3,21 miscommunication Monfort's 73:17 85:17 nine 116:8 152:16 

113:14132:7 75:12,21 148:11 90:5 115:4 116:12 nomenclature 141:22 

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68:3 86:4,22 89:3 missing 90:17 102:10,11,15114:13 noncompliant 54:11 

91:18 96:15100:8 mission 88:10,13 94:9 121:15 122:4 noon 4:20 53:9 

103:4,17 104:6 96:14107:5118:8 months 34:17 35:7 36:3 normal58:9115:13 

124:20125:5,11,13 119:15 44:18,19 66:21 normally 4:18 6:7 31:2 

125:21 126:7 missions 87:7 89:3 102:12 114:13 158:14 32:8 48:21 51:14 

max 65:12 93:8 94:12,21 95:19 158:18 60:16 82:13 156:12 

Mayes 55:20 56:1 57:22 96:3,7 100:20 108:4,5 morning 10:2 13:2,3 157:12 

maze 147:2 misstates 96:10 34:7,8 50:15 105:18 note 27:1 

McCorsen 97:6 misunderstanding 134:7 notice 1:16 3:21 22:10 

mean72:14,19 92:16 75:11,22 76:11 motive 104:22 30:18 31:3,8,14,21 

93:4 95:13 97:12 Moana 1:12 move20:9 32:9 47:18 49:2,3,18 

118:5 124:6,8 129:10 modified 122:12 moved 35:22 45:19 142:5154:11 

129:11135:16136:20 Mokulele 12:18 16:2 54:2 77:1 notification 48:8 

139:5 140:9,16,18,21 21:6 24:9,10 25:8,10 movie 56:10,12,13,18 notified 11:21 44:13 

150:8 151:15,20 28:4,17 29:3,4 36:17 56:21 57:3,7,9,12 107:5 

155:17,18 158:9 40:6,8,1 0,1 0,15 42:6 59:4,7 71:7,9 108:16 notify 48:4 

means 6:8 104:5 127:9 46:2,7,14 62:1,5,9,16 108:21109:4,16,18 number 6:9 7:6 23:5,7,9 

139:6 64:9 68:17 69:4 78:13 109:22110:7,11 23:14 114:7116:10 

medical 53:3 78:17 85:19 86:8,9,15 multi-engine 85:2 125:1 156:15 

medivac 34:20 86:20 87:7 93:21 multiple 22:10 72:17 numbers 5:17 23:10,12 

meet 63:2 99:20 144:19 94:14,22 96:8,14 23:13 

145:6,7152:4 112:7114:6118:20 N numerations 7:4 

meeting 15:1718:7 119:9,13120:17,21 N 3:1,1 125:1 numerous 39:13 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
169 

0 71:11,14 73:11,14,20 35:10,11 37:19 39:2,4 opportunity 74:19 

0 3:1 74:14 78:7,11,16,21 40:9 42:10 47:14 51:3 opted 56:8 

o'clock 5:1 13:2 52:9 79:2,10,13 80:5 81 :5 55:2 56:14,16 57:1,19 order31:7,11155:9 

132:4 135:10 81:8,1182:2,16,18 58:1 59:3 62:17 63:3 156:12 157:16 

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oath 34:2 132:16 89:14 90:1,14 91:2,11 84:9 88:22 89:1 90:3 original38:16 

object 26:15 91:16 92:15 95:18 91:15 93:20,22 94:14 originated 21:4 

objection 14:6 19:1 96:13,22 97:19 98:11 97:21 99:13 100:22 other's 47:14 

20:13 25:15 27:1,2 99:3,21100:9,18 117:1120:10121:14 outfits 34:19 

30:1 32:7 37:15 39:9 101:6104:10,15 122:4 133:19134:15 outlined 120:19 

46:3,10 49:5 55:10 105:17 106:17,20 135:4,12,18 139:4 outside115:12 

56:19 58:11 59:15 108:6,10 110:16 150:3 155:2,2 overrule 27:1 

93:9 96:9126:18 113:11 114:3,3,5,20 operational87:15 Overruled 37:16 39:10 

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obtain 24:7 118:16120:2,3121:5 operations 7:20 11:12 56:20 59:16 93:11 

occupation 78:1 84:1,2 123:21125:3,10 11:14,2212:4,11,13 96:11 148:15 

occurred 38:15 59:11 126:5130:6138:2 12:1813:7,8,22 14:17 overseeing 109:10 

60:1 69:16 76:9 142:15 143:12,15 15:1,916:1,2 25:8 11 0:1 0 

11 0:12 144:9 145:12,22 26:6 27:16 39:8,12 oversight 10:16 11:3 

occurring 68:2 146:15,19147:6,9,11 40:8,11,1442:12 71:8,12,15 

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off-the-record 107:13 154:7,21 155:5,8 57:4,8 59:2 61:21 owner 84:3 

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26:7 29:20 76:21 on-demand 13:8 16:1 68:1,14 82:5,6 84:5,7 ----

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offering 31:15 69:2,9 72:20 84:10,12 85:13 86:19,20 88:19 P140:1 

office 1 :2 2:4 10:6 85:12 87:12,22 92:3,5 90:6,10 93:15,18 95:7 P-R -0-C-E-E-D-1-N -G-S 

11:21 12:5,10 13:5 93:15 94:3 100:21 95:15 96:14,18 97:10 4:1 

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41:17 42:20 44:22 134:14,14135:11,14 108:16 109:16,21 132:8,9 159:6 

48:2,16 50:21 51:18 141:17143:4,7,8,11 110:11111:9,17 P.02:5 

59:13 66:15 67:22 143:13 112:1,9114:6,11 Pacific 138:20 

68:8 70:6,7,14 76:13 on-time 28:12 116:4 120:2,16 packet 9:2 

78:3 82:1,14 91:12 once 24:8 90:11 106:6 122:14,16,20,22 page 14:22 15:2 22:6 

99:4,6 '13,21 105:7 107:19130:17 123:4124:4133:11 22:11 28:15 36:19 

116:20117:1123:13 ones 21:12 48:11 62:5 133:14,18 134:14 40:22 41 :15 42:14,22 

124:12139:11,16 onset94:15 135:3,11,14,18 42:22 43:1,2 53:6,7 

140:12 op 35:22 36:3,10 38:13 139:18,22 140:3,4 54:2 60:22,22 73:16 

offices 139:7,9 38:16,17,2139:1,17 141:5,17 143:3,18 79:12,17 81:8,9 89:12 

official25:6 61:2 81:2 43:1144:15,17 47:10 145:4,10,15,17,19 116:8,8,16120:18 

122:11 56:15 60:13,15 61:18 155:3,12 152:16 

OGG 22:11,12,12 28:4 62:8 63:15,20,22 operator 35:5 39:7,16 pages 22:10 28:7,8,9 

Oh.12:7 63:19 86:17 88:15 93:7 97:21 47:9,10,11 48:4 52:1 28:1029:1,2104:3 

116:17 128:15144:9 120:7122:12,18 60:12 61:5 62:22 paginated 79:11 

okay 12:8,12,2013:4 135:19155:13,15,22 75:19 76:12 82:5 paragraph 153:1 

15:19,2017:1,12 opening 7:14 8:8 75:6 87:19 93:16 107:9,14 pardon 93:5 

21:14 22:21 23:15 openly 95:20 128:7 145:9 147:1 part5:19,2111:7 39:16 

24:2 29:7 32:8 34:21 operate 36:4,17,21 39:2 148:9 153:6,17 41:15 52:12 57:11 

35:9,14,14,21 36:5,18 51:4 59:8,9 61:19 154:13 85:7 95:22 96:1 

37:5,10 38:5 39:5 62:3 109:3 135:7 operators 58:10139:19 104:22 140:10 145:7 

41:3,6,14 42:3,14,17 146:4 155:8 140:2,15,22 150:18 158:6 

43:6,14 44:10 47:3,8 operating 22:13 40:17 150:22 particular7:214:17 

47:15 48:15 49:1,20 55:1 72:13 146:3 opinion 37:11 47:8 88:10 91:21 98:14 

50:5,13 51:14 52:7,7 155:6,10 61:15,16 87:4100:21 108:17 

52:18 53:5,7,18 54:22 operation 12:3 14:21 101:3,4110:1122:21 parties 156:13 

55:8 60:6 64:19 68:13 16:12 22:20 27:20,22 149:2,9 150:15 parts 5:12 6:17 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
170 

passed 140:11 100:1 103:19 101:2 104:9,9,21 providing 69:10 

passengers 62:4,10 plain 151:9 105:19 109:14 126:8 provision 145:18 

150:8,9 please4:6,13,16 5:14 151:8,10 public 23:6 31:4 143:20 

pause69:16101:18 9:1510:317:10 20:21 prevent 122:9 123:22 144:11,15 

127:13 30:8 33:13 50:4 66:2 previous 101 :13 published 24:11,12 

pay 111:18 66:11 71:4 77:13 previously 9:5 14:11 26:20 143:20144:10 

paying 69:6 83:13 86:11114:4 19:17 20:17 25:19 151 :9 

penalty 45:18 110:18 116:7127:10131:17 27:8 28:1 30:5 32:15 pull102:11 

111:16112:2,3 132:15 137:16 138:2 36:10 44:18 113:18 pulled 45:3 67:19 

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pendency 137:17 plus51:1973:10 principal11 :11 39:8,12 25:2,12 26:2,8 29:9 

pending 16:16 PO 155:14 55:1,14 78:20 90:20 29:10,21 30:11 63:7 

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percent 111:22 127:17 47:9 48:17 55:9 56:15 prior 26:17 34:13 35:4,7 pursuant 1:16 

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perfectly 6:3 58:9 68:1171:1 76:12 49:18,22 50:12,16 put 5:19 6:3,8 7:6,8 

period 44:8,11 54:10 78:13,17 88:5 90:20 51:1 56:18 59:11 80:14100:8108:18 

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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
172 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
173 

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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
174 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
175 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
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(202) 234-4433 

176 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
177 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Schuman Aviation Company, Ltd. 

Before: US DOT/FAA 

Date: 12-04-14 

Place: Honolulu, HI 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

(202) 234-4433 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com