Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) 

system used in the Rooms and Spaces Subcommittee Meeting #1 and is generally unedited. The 

CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who 

are deaf, and was streamed in real-time and available to the public on the internet during the 

meeting. 

United States Access Board

RVAAC Teleconference

Rooms and Spaces Subcommittee Meeting #1

May 29, 2014

>> Okay. We are connected. 

Jim, you want to say... 

>> Ready to go? 

Good afternoon. This is Jim Pecht with the Access Board and welcome to the first subcommittee on 

rooms and spaces for the rail advisory accessibility access committee and I'm going to ask Rose to go 

down the list of who's in the room and please say aye when she calls your name. 

>> Thank you, Jim. 

First on the list, Marilyn Golden? 

>> Aye. 

>> Billy Altom. 

>> Aye. 

>> Andre Gagne. 

>> Hello. 

>> Crystal Lyons. 

>> Here. 
>> Dennis Cannon? 

>> Here. 

>> Marsha Mazz? 

>> Here. 

>> Christopher Hart. 

>> Here. 

>> Jordana Maisel? 

>> Here. 

>> Robert Carlson? 

>> Here. 

>> Calvin Gibson? 

>> Here. 

>> Frank Maldari? 

>> Here. 

>> Blair Slaughter? 

>> Aye. 

>> Uwe Rutenberg. 

>> Here. 

>> And in the room I have Jim Pecht, Lisa Fairhall and myself with the Access Board and today's CART 

is Sherry Knox. Jim, back to the agenda. 

>> Okay. Well, the first item on the agenda is to elect a subcommittee chair and I'm going to turn 

this over to Billy and apparently we had two prophones but one of them -- proponents and one of 

them has dropped out -- or has withdrawn so I will let Billy take it from there and see if anyone else 

wants to throw in their hat. 

>> Thank you, Jim. Again, this is for the rooms and places subcommittee. Currently we have 

Dennis Cannon up for submission as the subcommittee chair. Uwe Rutenberg had withdrawn his 

name because of time constraints and would not able to participate in the manner he would want to. 
So do we have any volunteers from the floor? 

Oh, wow, that was like an EF hutton commercial. 

Oh, the old people got it. 

(Sirens) 

>> Sorry. Do I hear any nominations from the floor? 

I'm taking the silence as none, so if we all agree then by acclimation, I will appoint Dennis Cannon as 

our subcommittee chair for rooms and spaces. 

>> Do you need a motion to close the slate or --

>>> Some. Congratulations. Dennis... 

>> Thank you. 

>> You are welcome and I will turn this over to you as our new chair. Thank you. 

>> Okay. 

The agenda is we got the election. Now, let's go to the review of subcommittee scope and 

objectives...see below. 

And does everybody have this on their screen or know what it says? 

I can read it if not, but --

>> Please read it. 

>> Anybody need me to read it? 

Any corrections or changes or anything that anybody wants to make to the scope or to the 

objectives? 

>> Dennis, I think you're going to need to read it for transcription purposes. For the CART, you're 

going to need to read it. 

>> Oh. Okay. 

So the scope says the scope of this subcommittee is to review the current requirements for certain 
accessible rooms and spaces, that's restrooms, dining, sleeping compartments and so forth in the 

Access Board rail guidelines which were originally issued in September 1991 and have not been 

updated since that time. 

The objective is to recommend proposed revisions to update, approve or expand the scoping and 

technical criteria in order to assure an acceptable level of access for individuals with disabilities on 

rapid rail, light rail, inner city rail and other fixed systems covered under the board's current 

guidelines and which include people, movers and things in airports. 

These recommendations will be based on current regulations in consideration of changes that have 

taken place in vehicle structure, technology and the trends -- and the needs and desires of people

with disabilities. And then there is a list of tasks, which has to do with restrooms. Subcommittee 

will address restrooms, consider alternate designs and existing accessibility standards and in use of 

other countries, accommodate dependent and independent transfers, examine the pre-of, the Cal 

train and the acceleration designs versus existing standards and for sleeping departments we have 

communication needs. We have ensure that controls and amenities are accessible, their location, 

clearance, turning space and so forth. Bed heights that permit transfer from the wheelchair, 

minimum space requirements with and without bed deployed. Egress and emergency operation of 

doors, evaluate bathroom design including showers located within the compartment. Space for 

service animals, access to other sleeping car amenities outside the sleeping compartment. And then 

for dining and lounge cars we have things like accessible tables, accessible service counters and 

accessible self- service. That's vending machines, condiments, coffee and so forth. We have a 

timetable which is complete and reviewed by October 2014 and I'm not sure whether we're going to 

make that but I hope we will. 

Anybody have any corrections or editions or whatnot to the scope or the tasks or the objectives? 

>> This is Marilyn. I had a question. 

>> Okay. 
>> Just looking at the sleeping compartment list, it could be that all the big concerns that have tended 

to be addressed over and over again in different venues when we talk about the problems we see 

with sleeping compartments would be encompassed in here or not? 

I mean, I assume that we're not going to, you know, make this super exclusive as we remembered it. 

We didn't reflect something on this list. 

>> Not sure what you mean. 

>> Well, you mean what the specific -- you mean what specific concerns I mean? 

>> Yeah. You're thinking we left something off here? 

>> We may have. 

>> Marilyn, this is Marsha, I don't think it matters. When you think of it, you'll put it on. 

>> Okay. Thank you. 

>> Shiotani. A lot of this stuff involves special cars, but in the beginning we also want to make sure 

we include just regular coach cars and long distance coach cars and commuter in terms of is there 

tables or other amenities, so... 

>> Ken, I don't think that's appropriate for this task group. I think that belongs to another task 

group that's dealing with the circulation and all the wheelchair seating and all of that other stuff. 

>> All right. 

>> Marsha, this is Jim Pecht. I put it on the list as passenger coaches to get things that were not 

being covered by the other group. Basically things like tables and coach cars --

>> I think they are covering it however, Jim. As long as somebody covers it, it doesn't matter. It's 

the same players no matter what. 

>> I guess we just have to make sure. 
>> Yeah. Just as long as somebody covers it --

>> Yeah. Okay. 

>> Okay. 

Let's go back to the agenda and start off with the -- with what's on the agenda with respect to all of 

these things. We'll start with passenger coaches because that's the one on the agenda, to make 

sure that there's anything we need to pick up that isn't -- we had the other subcommittees doing 

circulation and so forth. So I'm not sure if there's anything we need to deal with specifically in this 

area. 

Anybody got any specific kinds of things that they think are going to be missed somewhere? 

I'll take that arousing response being no. 

>> Dennis, this is Blair. Except as it applies to restrooms in passenger coaches, I mean, for sure I 

think that's not necessarily part of the circulations process. But the work that's done on the 

restrooms and any car should carry over regardless of the car type, you know, the space 

requirements -- the space needs should be common I would hope for those kinds of compartments. 

>> Right. With respect to the toilet and the bathing rooms are on the list here for rooms and spaces 

with exception of the special or different kinds of requirements that might apply to a restroom that 

are inside a compartment. Restrooms is one of the spaces that we're supposed to be dealing with 

here and that would be the restrooms on the general cars, so I think we picked that up. 

4.2 in the dining cars and food service cars and that we have been dealing with a little bit earlier with 

respect to things like vertical circulation. But we also have things like tables and accommodations 

and so forth. 

Does anybody have a specific idea that we want to start this off with? 

Maybe we should start with the vertical access because we already dealt with that to some extent. 

Anybody have some comments about what we need to do? 
>> Dennis, this is Rose Marie Access Board. One second please. First of all I do have Ken Shiotani

who just joined the line but also Joan Martin. But Ken, can you please state your name. I want to 

do a sound check, please. 

>> Sure. It's Ken Shiotani. 

>> Is that better? 

The line is better? 

Thank you, Ken. Back to you, Dennis. 

>> Dennis, this is Blair from Amtrak. Based on what we have been working on with the new 

single-level cars and it would apply I think to any dining situation and probably as well to a lounge, 

you know, someone sitting down having a snack, I think we need to focus in on not just the, you 

know, the floor space that we need to navigate, but one of the things we were developing, you know, 

the most recent designs, we had tables that flipped up and those kinds of things. One of the points 

that was made was that if you're coming into a dining car quite often the table is made up to some 

degree and if you come into a dining car and the table has to be lifted so you can, you know, 

complete your maneuvering into it, it sort of creates a lot of unnecessary focus on the person who's 

coming in to eat like everyone else. 

So ultimately what we ended up doing was using more space than maybe we would have if we were 

starting out fresh, starting from ground zero. But at the end it was all about keeping as much as we 

can the environment, the space as near like every other position and as easy to get to and then get 

back out of as possible. 

The only thing I would say as coming from...we can get for overlap would be great. 

But I think that based on what we have done recently the more we can define the space or much of 

the space I think the better it will be on run for folks to get it right. 

(Motorcycle noise) 

>> There goes a motorcycle. 

What we don't have current in the current regulation is knee and toe clearance requirements which I 

think needs to be brought into this particular area. We have problems, for example, in the Acelus 
space and not in the dining area. But in the regular coach space one of my complaints is while they 

had some nice foldout tables, that space somewhere along the line between the time when I 

reviewed the prototype and the guidance to service there's now a post underneath that table that 

prevents you from actually getting into the space. So I think we need to adopt or adapt the 

requirements from the building codes and put them into for knee and toe clearance so that we have 

things clearly like the top of the table as a 34 max and the clearance underneath as a 29 minimum 

and to make sure that continues all the way into the -- under the tables and so forth. 

>> And be free of objections like screw heads and things like that. 

>> Who's talking, please? 

>> Robert Carlson. 

>> Thank you. 

>> This is Linda Martin. I have one more thing to add to that. Something that's also missing is sort 

of the width or not so much the depth, but with the width of clearing space under a table needs to 

be, twice recently reviewing some things where the width wasn't enough and all of that. All of the 

appendages that stick out of our wheelchairs up under a table so it's also mentioned... 

>> This is Chris Hart. I think you also are wrestling with, you know, what is the minimal width of that 

table if we think about a sleeping car, that table is about the size of one square foot which basically 

you can't even use as a table. So I think at some point you have to correct over time will set a 

minimum table size as well so there is a clear understanding not just with Amtrak but with other rail 

providers what is going to be a very minimal table size. 

>> Right. Right. This is Linda again. I mean, I agree with that. We may need to have different 

sizes depending on the space that they're supposed to fit in to. I mean, there's -- so we need to 

consider the space that it's going in. That's wearing my other hat. 
>> I think you're correct but clearly not having a minimum direction as resulted in tables that don't 

work and it's not just Amtrak. It's with other providers as well. 

>> Right. This is Dennis. 

The old designs of the compartments for example is that table which folds out of the wall is designed 

for someone sitting on the couch, not a wheelchair. 

And so there's no -- there is not sufficient room underneath your knees aside from the sides of the 

table you can't actually get in under it and that's partly the result of it being -- the way it's fastened 

underneath the window so that there may be some adjustments, but it needs to be done in design. 

I think we need to consider the question then is with respect to knee and toe clearance and there is in 

the ADA/ABA guidelines with requirement as well for table space we should probably take a look at 

that and see whether that's adequate and in fact should we import that essentially into this 

requirements for the rail cars. We're increasing -- I can't remember now from the other 

subcommittee, we're increasing the length of the clear floor space for a wheelchair. A

recommendation at least and my recollection is that the widths is the same. Is that correct? 

Or is it 36? 

Do people remember? 

>> This is Jim. I believe that's correct. 

>> We increased it to 36? 

>> No. I don't think they have specified something. I don't think so. 

>> Dennis, I don't believe we had a --

>> This is Marilyn, Dennis. It depends on -- and I may have missed this. It depends on if you're 

looking at what the ANCI committee is considering, you know, leaning towards versus what the 
recommendations out of the the Ed Steinfeld study it did increase the width. I don't think it went to 

36, but it was higher than 30. 

>> Yeah, this is Linda. 

I think it's 30, 32 and I think we left it at 32 because the idea was that if you couldn't get through the 

doorway which is 32, you know, what's the point of making it 36 if you can't get through the doorway 

which was 32. I could be wrong. 

>> This is Frank. I thought on the other committees, I can't remember which one it was. But we 

were talking about 54. 

>> Yeah, I think that's right. 

>> For the space envelope of the chair or mobility device, does that sound right? 

>> This is Blair. That was on circulation. I believe that's right. I don't think we had nailed it down 

firmly but I remember some of that logic of the 32 versus 36. 

But I guess the other thing is depending on the space if there is more your area then you give a better 

definition so we avoid appendages of the vehicle, you know, encroaching in that space. 

But I was going to mention something about the tables...the tricky part when we start working 

between guidelines for buildings which typically are fixed devices and the guidelines for trains which 

tend to be, you know, limited space-wise because of the box, that is, the train, things tend to be a 

little bit more packed under...for accessibility sake or -- and there's other things that come into play. 

When we look at folding tables and things like that, the device folds and the complexity that comes 

along with it to make it meet the structural requirements that go along with everything in the train. 

So that's something that as we move through this we'll have to keep in mind. It's a frustrating thing 

about the train sometimes...naturally gets more compact. It's almost like an RV. 

Sometimes...apart by the nature of the vehicle, so I'll just throw that out. 

(Static in the line) 

>> Operator, can you please isolate the interference, please? 
>> Yeah, I was just going to ask whether anybody else was hearing that. 

>> Okay. So Frank Maldari is muted potentially and we'll see if the interference clears after that. 

Okay. I'm sorry. Blair, continue. 

>> Oh, I was done. 

I assume everyone heard that. I'm not sure or maybe the static... 

>> Yeah, what I heard was that we have to be concerned about the constraints that are imposed by 

the vehicle itself. 

>> Yes, Dennis, and also when you're looking at something that's not fixed say to the wall or the floor, 

but is a folding device, the structure aspects that go with that that are imposed, you know, outside of 

the ADA world have to be considered. And so you can get this -- I don't want to say exponential 

because that's too much. But you get a growth of all the machinery associated with it that you 

wouldn't see if you were in a fixed facility like a building. 

>> This is Chris. 

One of my only observations is I think as you've seen with your own bridge plate re-design, some of 

your materials available today are by superior...than say what you guys used either on Acelus 14, 15 

years ago, and so maybe...by using newer, stronger materials that don't require the older bulkiness, 

but where --

>> This is Blair. Chris, you're right. And, in fact, on the new tables that we're working on for the 

new cars, they are bigger and lighter than the old tables because of the materials again. 

They still have structural requirements that they have to meet even though they're a folding table 

and that would be independent of the material they are. Obviously the heavier the material, the 

less of a capacity it has. But I think what we have come to at some point is we're going to have to 

lean over to our folks in the FRA for some assistance as well but the thing that Dennis mentioned on 

the Acela where we had a really wonderful folding table that had plenty of space and then it grew this 
tree trunk of a leg under it because of concerns of the crash worthiness and we were all very 

disappointed that that occurred because it was a really -- we were very pleased with what we had 

come up with and then very disappointed that it had to change. And so anyway...okay. I've said 

enough for now. 

>> Yeah, this is Dennis. I was told that was the reason that that leg appeared on there. Part of the 

problem is it's affixed. It can't be moved. It's bolted to the table and to the floor if say something 

that folded away or could be moved in order to get in to position and then put back, that might be a 

possibility. Opinion nearing solutions -- engineering solutions -- you know, the tables and the 

compartments have been there for ions (maybe not that long) and, you know, there is a structural 

issue there as well and somebody solved it and not necessarily in the best way for accessibility 

because those tables are very difficult to deploy if you have limited strength because they weigh a 

ton. But I'm convinced that given some engineering thought that somebody could have come up 

with a solution to that folding table that didn't involve that fixed post underneath it that prevents you 

from getting into the space. 

As you get into the space if there were not a chair behind you so that you could sort of pull straight in 

and in some cases I'm guessing that at least some of the tables, possibly on one of the end of a dining 

car could meet that requirement where you could pull straight in as opposed to having to maneuver 

in. 

I don't recall right now what the situation is with the Talgo cars that I road on and I guess it's the 

crescent or something, the cascades. They have a very interesting system in the car that's actually 

not really a dining car. It's mostly a cafe car in which one of the seats folds up and then retracts 

back into a niche in the wall and you can actually maneuver a chair into that space and I don't recall --

it's been a long time since I was up there just to remember whether there is in fact a post or 

something under that chair, under the table or how you actually get in there. But I remember that 

being a problem getting up to the table so I'm curious about what that is. We don't have anybody 

from Talgo on the line or do we? 
>> Dennis, this is Blair. 

I know the seat and table you're talking about and I think -- I won't swear to it -- but I think that that 

table is can lever so it gives you some space underneath to move into. We were originally looking at 

cantilever tables on the new diners and because of the floor-space issues, we actually abandoned 

that table and just used a regular table that was raised up to give you, you know, good clearance 

underneath. 

The problem with the cantilever table is, you know, by the time you put all the structure underneath 

to hold the table up and meet the -- and it's a light-weight table otherwise but it has a lot of steel 

underneath it. So that all the tubular structure underneath it sort of was a problem as well. So at 

the end because of the way we're able to approach it, we just used a regular table at the end and just 

rolled straight into it so it eliminated the issue. 

>> Okay. 

But at this point we need to -- the issues we're kind of discussing with respect to things like 

engineering and structural issues is not necessarily our problem until it interferes with the standard 

we want. But I want to make sure that we nail down the issue that we need -- we want to establish 

a surface height which I think is 34 unless somebody objects and says that's not adequate and 

underside clearance of 29 that's measured up from the floor and that that must ascend back from the 

front edge a minimum of -- help me, Marsha. What's the minimum distance it needs to extend back 

in there? 

Marsha on the line? 

>> Dennis, this is Jim. Are you talking about the minimum depth for knee and toe clearance? 

>> Yeah, for a table. 

>> 17 inches is the minimum. 25 is the max. 

>> Sorry, Dennis. I was on mute. 
>> Okay. 17 inches from the front to the back we're going to specify we need a width of 32 because 

that comports with the space requirement. 

Does anybody have objections or things we need to do that are different, tweaks to make that into a 

recommendation? 

Now, the engineering of how you get all of that clear space may pose a problem and at some point 

during the comment period I guess the engineers will come up and say whether they can or cannot 

do that. 

>> Dennis, this is Blair. 

We'll call them challenges. Not problems for now. 

>> Right. Okay. 

>> Give engineers challenges. It makes them use their learning. 

>> I remember from an old engineering class, they said if you want to get a problem solved, tell an 

engineer it can't be done. 

>> Yes. And of course I experience the other end, a lot of engineers telling me it can't. As an 

industrial designer, I spend a lot of time arguing. 

I think from my standpoint those numbers are good, but I will default to people that actually use 

those dimensions. 

What I am curious about and we ran into this in the diner development is definition of clear floor 

space and any allowance for overlap in a table situation like this and I say that if you have a cantilever 

table -- assume there's no leg, there's nothing to impinge your movement under that table. Is there 

any room or any allowance for -- shoot. What's the word I'm looking for? 

For moving into the table space and allowing the table to be in the clear floor space? 

>> Blair, this is Jim. When you say "clear floor space," do you mean the parking space for a 

wheelchair in a coach? 

>> I have to go back and dig up the citation, but the way I was made to understand is that there is --

that we're really dealing with two discreet spaces. We have the parking space and then there is the 
table. 

And while there is allowance for toe space, you can't -- the table itself cannot encroach into the clear 

floor space to be used for maneuvering. 

So, in other words, if you measured from say a bulkhead 54 inches if that's our new number, 54 

inches and that defined the longitudinal space, the table, even if it had no leg, could not encroach on 

that 54 any more than what's allowed for say toe space. 

>> Blair, this is Marsha. I'm not understanding at all what you're saying because the 54 inches 

include knee and toe space and if the table doesn't go over your lap, over your knee and toe space, 

then it's not of any value if people can't get to it. 

>> Well, no, Marsha, yeah, you are misunderstanding me. What I had explained to me is that the 

clear floor space, the parking space is discreet from the table space so that if you treat it as big blocks 

of space, that the -- you have the parking space and that extends up as a solid to a required height 

and then you have the table space and those spaces have to do exist but not overlap any more than is 

allowed say the six inches or nine inches above the floor. 

>> I don't see the logic in that. 

What I would say is that the table, whether it's folded or deployed, cannot interfere with your 

maneuvering into position at your space. 

But I don't see how anybody profits from having the table in some way overlap the parking space. 

>> Well, this is Linda --

>> This is Dennis. Let me see if maybe I can clear this. 

We have a space for, you know, rectangle, that's the parking space for a wheelchair. Part of that 

space extends under the table. Obviously you have to get your knees under the table in order to 

use the table. So there is an overlap from the table itself. There is a width that's a clearance from 

say the side of the coach and the outer leg which we're saying is a minimum of 32, and then there is a 

length that you need to have for the chair part of which again extends under the table. 

The tricky part is that unless the table -- if the table is folded up say, you can get into that space and 
then fold the table down and now it's covering part of that space which is fine. 

If the table is fixed, you have got to be able to get into it. If it's like behind a bulkhead or something 

that confines you on one side, you have to figure out how -- you have to add more space, more length 

in order for a wheelchair to slide in or turn in underneath. 

>> Right. In other words you cannot interfere with maneuvering space that allows you to get into 

position at the table. But you certainly can have the table overlap the knee-and-toe space provided 

that there's adequate maneuvering space to get into that position. It's what we used to call 

maneuvering into alcoves and everything, but I think it's easy enough to work out on paper. 

>> This is Linda. I think you're basically saying the same thing but in a different way. But I did sort 

of want to take issue with one thing you said, Dennis, and that's about the idea that you could have a 

table that flipped up and then you maneuver in and it flipped down. I mean, we have told Amtrak in 

a couple of instances that that's not favored unless -- I mean, they absolutely can -- not everybody 

can pull the table down once they pull in there. 

So we have tried to get them away from that notion that there needs to be an assisted table that can 

flip down into a space. 

>> And, Linda, this is Chris Hart. I think the other reason why you may want to avoid that like that 

and so on is over time that -- it began to sag or you get some very rough edges and so if Blair actually 

wanted all...you find a whole lot of sagging considerably...and some pretty sharp edges --

>> Yeah, Chris, that's where the -- this is Blair again, sorry. The leaves are folding to the car. 

>> You got it. 

That's where the leaves fold where the --

>> But I will say that at least we're applying those sagging tables to everybody equally. 

( LAUGHTER ) 

>> I give you that. Every table... 

>> What I would say though in looking at dining tables and this was I think a very good point that we 

went through on the new dining cars. If it's a dining room where the table cloths are down and the 
flowers are on the table and all of those things, the last thing you want to do is come in and have to 

unmake that table and disrupt everything and I think that was a valid point. If it's a situation that's a 

lot more casual and the tables aren't -- they're all small, sort of bistro-type tables, then maybe having 

something that folds down is better provided that the strength requirements to make it work. 

When we did the fold-table table on the Acela, it fell within the ADA guidelines of less than 5 pounds I 

think to operate the table from down to up and up to down. 

But that wasn't, you know, a big dining table. So I think the key is it has to be appropriate for the 

application and obviously its performance as far as dimensions for clear space has to be the same. I

would like to jump back to the issue of maneuvering. I think what we ended up with...an 

understanding was that basically we were using -- we needed to use the alcove dimensions as 

unencumbered dimensions for maneuvering into the space. If you would think about maybe the 

parking area in the dining car as being an alcove so you're getting out of the aisle. And then once 

you're in that alcove, then you pull under the table so then the knee and toe space becomes relevant 

and you can use the table. But I think if we can drive a little more -- if we can drive that kind of 

definition into it, it would be helpful in the future for people designing the spaces and maybe avoid 

some problems. 

As it is now because of the way we have rearranged it, there is no need to treat it as an alcove 

because you can drive straight in from the indoor and, you know, make a slight S turn and run into 

the table. But I think that can be beneficial in the long-term to define that alcove-type 

maneuverability and then maneuver into the table because I think that's probably what's going to 

work best. 

>> This is Dennis. We have had that problem in the old regulations all over the place including 

places like buses and we added the alcove -- or rather the objection, extra space needed when you're 

moving into a -- moving within an obstructed area. To the bus provisions as well because there's 

lots of situations where the current regulation which calls for a 48 by 30 width space was stuck in 

between a wheel well and a backseat. And unless the wheelchair could maneuver in sideways, 

there was no way to get into that area. So we added the extra space and I think we can pick up that 
same requirement for the rail car, except for the differences in the length that we're going to have to 

add because we're increasing the parking space recommendation. 

>> This is Linda. I wanted to add one more thing about the dining car issue. 

One of the other things that's missing I think is...I hate to keep bringing up the dining car, Blair, as an 

example that went wrong at least initially. But the tables themselves were so close together that 

one couldn't like get a joy stick past the table and the opposite wall in order to back into that with 

alcove space. That doesn't exist now the way we reconfigured it. But if someone were to design a 

table that was in an alcove but yet a table was across the aisle that impeded the ability of someone to 

use a joy stick to maneuver themselves into that space because the aisle just wasn't wide enough, 

you know, that may be also a dimension that's needed and isn't in a regulation currently or 

guidelines. 

>> Linda, to that point, you know, the 34 inches -- this is Blair again. Sorry. The 34-inch dimension 

which is the maximum for the table top, is that the maximum for the table top? 

Is also the maximum -- or the minimum height that you can have anything, you know, sticking into a 

32-inch hallway and, boy, those numbers as we found out really do crash into one another. 

I think if we were looking, you know, if we were starting with a clean sheet of paper with a dining car, 

we probably would make some different arrangements there that would make -- maybe be a little bit 

more efficient with the space, but we were just too far down the path to spin our wheels on that. 

So, I mean, I think we ended up with a pretty, you know, more than ample situation the way we are, 

but obviously the first go-round was very much, you know, trying to maximize the space and as we 

saw it just... 

>> Oops. This is Dennis. One of the things that's going to be very useful in terms of the guidelines 

or at least in terms of the technical assistance manual is lots of diagrams and pictures. If we have 

got some pictures or diagrams, drawings of things that you think are successful, say you redesigned 

some of the dining cars and so forth, that would be very useful for us to see what needs to be done. 

Sometimes looking at the picture you can then say oh, yeah, there is a dimension over there that 
needs to be specified as a minimum or a maximum and we really can't do that when we're trying to 

visualize all of these things in our head. So if you have got any of those drawings, we could really 

use them. 

>> Dennis, I can provide the latest layout of the diner. And when you see it, you'll think well, wow, 

we're wasting some space, but part of it was just the timing. 

We'll -- you'll see this huge amount of floor space that is way more than it needs to be, but at some 

point in the future we may reclaim some of that for storage but without impeding the movement into 

the table. But anyway, when you see it, it will make sense to you. 

But I think it was -- we tried to, you know, typical railroad fashion, to squeeze every square inch out, 

every cubic inch out as we could and it ultimately physically -- it looked good on paper, but it didn't in 

reality. 

>> This is Sing from Bombarti. Right now, I see restrooms, seating compartments and dining, 

lounges and rooms and spaces and from time to time we get special areas. Like in the Acela 

vehicles, I know they're obsolete now, but we had phone booths and so we might get those requests 

in the few which are for some specific spaces for some purpose. So I think there should be some 

revisions for it if ever we have spaces than the ones that are listed there but they have to meet 

certain criteria. 

>> Right. We don't view this particular list as exhaustive, at least I don't. And I'm sure people are 

going to come up with some ideas of things we need to add from time to time. But all of the spaces 

that are open to the public need to be accessible in some respect, and it may be a scoping issue. 

There may be meeting rooms, for example, in which maybe not every meeting room has to be 

accessible, but that's an issue we need to think about. 

>> Dennis, this is Gary Talbot. Can you hear me? 
>> Yes. 

>> Can I just ask a couple of questions and I apologize you guys, I was tied up in something else and I 

just joined you guys a couple of minutes ago >> You're forgiven. 

>> Oh, thanks. 

Did you guys -- I'm sure you already talked about unoccupied wheelchairs, stowing space and dining 

car and stuff like that. I just wanted to comment. I think Linda is spot on, you know, the clear 

space for the path of travel even if it's, you know, adjacent to the table has to be really sacred space 

that goes vertical well beyond what your intrusion would be from an adjacent table top because that 

really is a big deal for folks trying to back into a space and stuff like that with joy sticks and that kind 

of stuff. 

The other thing I did want to say is, you know, it's a difficult thing...we don't have a path to travel 

through the train and because of that oftentimes if we're fortunate enough we can get in a vending 

car. We may stay there for a long, long time. Where other people can, you know, just move 

about, go wherever they need to go. I've actually been in a couple where my battery on my lap top 

went dead and there was no 110 and I was just curious if we could provide the space because we 

don't have the advantage of just going to another space where, you know, you might have electrical 

or go back to your room or something like that, we have to wait until an accessible station to be able 

to make that move. You know, just wanted to raise that as another issue and don't know how the 

committee -- how the subcommittee feels about that or not. 

>> This is Dennis. 

That is an issue that I think goes in with the other subcommittee that has to do with defining things 

like the parking spaces and the circulation cap. 

I am very much in favor of having at every accessible area electrical outlets, buttons, call buttons and 

if you need to get ahold of somebody and so forth as well as things like light controls which are 

always up in the ceiling. And I think all of those need to be accommodated within those particular 
spaces. 

I love the fact that on the Acela at least that virtually every space there is an outlet because I can plug 

in my lap top. 

>> Yep, I completely agree. Thank you very much. 

>> Dennis, this is Marsha. I will make one observation about when you move the switches down to 

like say the arm of the seat, like they do in airplanes, you know, you make them completely 

inaccessible to someone who can't see the switches. Because you're not going to put your head on 

your seat in order to read the switches, but, you know, people like me, I can figure out which one is 

the light switch about 50% of the time without calling the flight attendant. 

If it's above. 

>> And I think, Dennis, accessible for the -- while we're on --

>> Yes. That's why I think you need an electrical outlet. I notice that seems to be more and more 

common these days. I don't know whether that seems to be a nice trend. Maybe it's on some of 

the Acela and others but I've seen electrical outlets all over the place. Is that the latest thing? 

>> Dennis, this is Blair. I mean, we have been putting electrical outlets into all of the cars for a 

number of years now and then the -- I can't speak to the old -- the existing diners but I know the new 

diners have electrical outlets and there was a lot of questioning about that because it's not a -- it's not 

like a cafe or a lounge, but nonetheless we put the outlets in --

>> Am I muted? 

Hello? 

>> Hello? 

>> Yes, somebody just came in. 

>> Hello? 
>> Okay. I do know that Rutenberg mad to leave the call and he's disconnected. Linda Martin is 

also disconnected. But Ed Hoff has joined the call so everyone knows. I do not know who that 

other person was. 

>> But, Dennis, as far as the outlets go, it would seem to me to be well within the scope of this 

subcommittee to have those discussions just as if it were in a room with a door the outlet should be 

there. 

>> This is Chris. 

Brand-new air bus it was run by American Airlines and see flight entertainment, direct TV, whatever 

you call it. They had two USB ports right there. Is that under new cars? 

>> Chris, this is Blair? 

No. But it's one of the things that's under discussion as well as -- I mean, we're looking at the next 

generation of seating and whether that seating rotates as it does now. Obviously if it doesn't rotate, 

we can do a lot more directly in the seat so you're not reaching across your fellow passengers and 

USB ports are one of the things that are under discussion. 

And that may roll into the other new communication services as well that are coming along but it is 

definitely under consideration because it seems to be -- for the moment, it seems to be a very 

popular device. 

>> These days I see even in houses I see there's lots of these new duplex outlets which now have USB 

ports built into them. 

>> Okay. 

>> Blair, I had a question for you. This is Frank Maldari. What's the purpose for the USB ports? 

Is it just for charging purposes? 

>> Yeah, because many of the devices run off of that for charging. 

>> Okay. Sometimes people might misinterpret the purpose of them because you can -- a lot of the 
equipment that you buy today comes with a USB adapter and you can plug into any outlet. But I 

find people from time to time see a USB plug and think they're connected to the internet or 

something on your car. 

( LAUGHTER ) 

>> But the intention is only to provide charging power? 

>> At this time, yes. I mean, I don't know -- I mean, who knows what the future is. But it usually 

works out by the time we get everything deployed, it's obsolete, so we'll have to see --

>> I'm assuming that if you want to connect to the internet, the latest trend is going to be WiFi of 

some sort and I know some of the trains already have WiFi. 

>> Yes. 

Where it's available. Yes. 

>> Okay. 

Any in food service cars, are we done with that or is there more that needs to be done? 

>> Dennis, I recall it was some discussion early on and maybe Marilyn can help with alcove -- about 

the alcove car, you know, what do you do when...and that type of ramp which you have Acela and 

northeast region cars. 

>> You mean the Bistro-type cars? 

That's part of the food service. That's part of our charge too. 

So we have sort of talked about dining cars where you actually sit down at a table and the question 

then is what do we need to do other than things like circulation, getting in and out and through the 

food service car, getting up to the counter. 

Counters is one of the issues that was on our list. 

>> Dennis, you definitely have issues with counters. You may also have issues relating to where the 

things like your silverware and napkins and other dispensers are located. If you have the ability to 

fill your own soda, you know, from a soda dispenser, you may have those kinds of issues. 
I think you're going to find that you're going to have almost issues would would have in a restaurant 

or a bar or a cafeteria. 

>> Right. 

>> Yeah, go ahead. 

>> I'm sorry. This is Gary Talbot. I agree with Marsha. I was just going to add getting access to 

ice, grabbing the cup, getting ice, getting your soda. And then also if it's a self- serve situation 

where there's food or snacks or having stuff within the proper reach range so we can independently 

grab whatever it is we want and be able to pay for it with an accessible counter with accessible 

silverware and things like that. All the condiments. 

>> Can I ask the Amtrak folks who -- whether there is a trend to that kind of thing or are they still 

assuming that there's going to be a person behind the counter. What's the deal? 

>> Dennis, this is Blair. Interesting that you should mention that. 

There is a lot of conversation around unstaffed cars with vending machines as an option for routes 

that maybe right now don't have any food service or routes that don't make enough to even pay, you 

know, half of the person's salary behind the counter. 

So we are looking at some options like that. North Carolina on their intrastate service has vending 

machines now. 

We have sort of run the gamut with food service where we have had -- we built cars that had, you 

know, very easy-to-access cafe-type tables, condiments, all of those things. Anything that was selfservice was self- service for everybody. 

And then we have got the other situations where it's all handed to you by an attendant. But we are 

seeing a -- right now exploring possibility of more vending machines, more self- service and it's 

understood that that's going to be one of our challenges is putting everything within reach and doing 

it within the confines of the rail car. 

We have done some things in the past that I think would be interesting for us to look at just from a --
if nothing else -- from a Monday morning quarterback effect, our lower-level lounge cars, the super 

liner 2 lounge cars that Bombardier built had a car that included a trail type thing and that's 

something that would be really handy if Gary and I can go down and take a look at and pick at it 

because that was certainly the intent of that space was that you would be able to go through there 

and gather your own things and then the attendant would take care of hot drinks and take your 

money and that sort of thing. 

, So, yeah, so we do a little bit of everything but that's definitely on the scope right now as vending 

machines. 

>> Thanks, Gary. I think that would be a great idea and be a good idea to go see how they're 

executing it today and see how that would fit from an accessibility perspective. 

>> I think what you will see very quickly is it's -- you know, again the typical rail car thing. We were 

really trying to squeeze a lot of activity into the food service area, but for the time and we're talking 

1991, '92, it was sort of ground breaking, but whether it works today I think it would be worth our 

time to go look at it. I'll just have to find out when one of those cars is in town on the Capitol 

Limited. 

>> Yeah, I would suggest that that would be an excellent exercise to see what's been done and 

whether that meets -- and I would compare it with say the cafeteria and whatnot and self- service 

machines requirements from the ADA guidelines for buildings to see what part of that can be 

transferred over. We don't want to have to invent the wheel. If there's already a provision that's 

suitable in another part of the regulations, we should import it as opposed to trying to figure it out 

ourselves. But there obviously are differences between what's in a building and what's going to be 

in a rail car and the issue will be to see what parts we have -- what parts we can adapt and what parts 

we then have to figure out what's doing -- we're not going to solve all the problems with this 

committee or anything else, so we're going to have to figure out some of the things we're going to 

miss. 

>> This is Blair. When we did that work with Bombardier, this is this gentleman, Dennis Cannon. 

>> I've heard of him. 
>> You heard of him. Yeah, he told us, if it's not defined in rail, always try to reach the architecture 

standard if at all possible and that was what we tried to do. We'll have to go look and see if it really 

worked. 

>> In fact, Blair, I believe FRA had to remind you of that, so that was same advice. 

>> Thank you, Chris, for that reminder. 

>> Just, Gary, I believe you and Marsha were raising an issue of dining cars which was the self- service 

area that you find in the sleeper car as well. Is that correct? 

>> I'm sorry, Chris. This is Gary. I'm not sure I caught that. 

The area outside the dining car --

>> Yeah, you also raised the coffee and service area on the sleeper cars? 

As an issue? 

>> Yeah. Gary, the issue is around the coffee and the ice and sodas and things, the little beverage 

stations on the service cars. 

>> Right. 

>> Yeah, the problem that we have got, Chris, and it's -- we imposed it on ourselves, is that those 

beverage stations were originally intended for the attendant to go and get things and take to people. 

And over time, you know, we have turned it into this self- service thing which creates its own FDA 

problems that we're struggling with right now as well. 

So unfortunately a lot of the cars that exist, there's no way in the world where those amenities are 

now that you can get to. But it's certainly something that ought to be pointed out I think by this 

subcommittee and, you know, defined going forward. 

>> Yeah, this is Gary, and I appreciate that, Blair. I was trying to -- when Chris first asked that, I 

couldn't think of exactly what he meant. But now I do. 
>> You're the one that brings it up all the time, Gary. 

>> Yeah, I mean, but that's the one where -- you're right. It was the crew-only area that was 

converted over into like a self- serve area and that, for us, we just have no access to it, let alone, you 

know, I don't know what the counter heights and stuff are. But there's no path of travel to get to it. 

>> You're correct. And, Gary, I think that -- I mean, we would have to talk to our own board service 

folks within Amtrak, but my understanding was always that if you wanted to go get something, it was 

fine. But you always had the option, everyone. It wasn't just the -- it wasn't an exclusive thing. 

But everyone had the option of calling the attendant and asking them to bring something. That is 

what they get paid for despite what some of them think. 

>> Yeah, I know. This is Gary. Yeah, that to me is -- I understand what you're saying and I know in 

some cases that's the best we can do. But, boy, I'll tell you it doesn't always work like it's supposed 

to. 

>> Well, and that's probably why the whole self- service thing crept in, which is sort of a tail-wagging 

the dog way to do business, but that's an Amtrak problem. We'll have to take that one offline. 

>> Okay. 

Okay. We're going to look at the issues with things like self- service areas and see whether we have 

standards and requirements that already work and that we can adapt or adopt and that's partly the 

homework assignment I guess for Gary and Blair to take a look at some of those cars and see whether 

they work or not and hopefully get some drawings so we can look at that. 

Do we need to do anything more or can we go on to lounges? 

>> Dennis, this is Jim. 

>> Sort of related. 

>> You may want to have sort of just a category just for all these spaces, for operable parts which 
would pick up your lighting, switches, outlets and would pick up any of the folding table portion of 

the accessible tables that would have to be looked at. 

>> Right. 

I'm not sure what the latest thinking of the board is, but at the point when we did the draft for the 

buses and vans, we were combining everything and we had a section on operable parts and operable 

parts within the -- the way that typically the regulations worked for those who aren't familiar is you 

have a scoping section that says here's what the number of things or the specific places that have to 

comply that have to be accessible and then you define technical provisions and then you say they will 

comply with this. And so there are requirements that talk about the call buttons, get off the bus 

and so forth that have to meet the requirements for operable parts which is pretty much the same as 

the building standard with some minor changes, and so the idea would be that if you talk about 

electrical outlets or call buttons or the light switches and the compartment that you would say they 

all have to comply with whatever that standard section is. We may want to look at those provisions 

and see whether there are anything that need to be added to it for things like latches on the doors or 

compartments or the light switches in the compartment and maybe the tables if you're going to have 

to move them out of the way or the dispenser that dispenses the water in terms of the force it takes 

to operate it plus the height and so forth. And so we need to look at some of those provisions and I 

would suggest you look at the bus but also look at the ADA/ABA guideline operable parts provision 

and see whether there are things that need to be added that are peculiar or change that are peculiar 

to rail cars. 

Any comments, questions? 

>> This is Gary. 

I would agree with you on the -- just looking at like the operable parts piece -- like I'm just thinking 

when you were talking just thinking about the door locks inside of a restroom on a rail car and what 

I've most commonly seen it may be that, you know, they may -- I don't know if they really meet the 
graspable requirements or I don't think they meet the force requirements but even if they did, you 

know, from Richard Devilder's input that some of those things need to be powered like a moving train 

likewise the door, you know, where you could have a really easy to open door with a fairly easy grasp 

on a handle that tries to do that with a car in motion and rocking back and forth and stuff like that, it 

just gets really difficult to do whereas if you had power both the door and the latch, it would just 

make it so much easier and so much more accessible to so many more people. 

>> Gary? 

I know that there are standards for powered doors in the built environment. I'm not so sure about 

in trains and how applicable they are with those standards would be for trains but if you do want to 

make doors you do want to think about things like how that door behaves when the power fails or 

power is withdrawn. 

>> Absolutely. That's a great thing. 

>> This is Andrea from Bombardier. In Europe they have powered doors and they have those for 

years and years in other parts of the world so it's not like it's something that's brand-new. It's easy 

to get the systems up and import them --

>> And if it is a standard, then you can point us to it I think we would be interested in knowing about 

that. 

>> Sure. I'm not sure I'm going to find the standard on how to provide such a device, but there is 

system suppliers that can provide us and this I can take a look at it and provide it to the 

subcommittee. 

>> And they may be designing to a standard. Who knows. But if they are, that would be great to 

know. 

>> Well, typically -- this is Frank. On our property we develop a spec that they build to. But if you 

want to have a powered door I don't think in a regulation you need to get any further than saying I 

want a powered door. 

>> This is Marsha. I think, Frank, you do. Because you do have an awful lot of concern regarding 

for example how that door works in an emergency. So you do have to do a little bit more than just 
say have an automatic door because you want that door not to act as a trap if there is an accident 

and someone is in a space that is closed off by an automatic door. You don't want that automatic 

door to not have some kind of fail-safe that makes it operable. 

>> Well, I'm not arguing with you other than that is the only other thing that you probably want to 

have. I mean, generally speaking -- no, it's an important part. But when I say that generally 

speaking you buy a piece of equipment, you write a spec and generally speaking if you have a 

powered anything you have to consider when you don't have power. 

>> I guess whether we trust that every property to write a good spec, I think that the standard should 

include some -- the minimum criteria that detestable and deserveble because you're saying trust me, 

I'll write a good spec. 

>> No, I'm not saying that. Maybe I'm oversimplifying what I'm trying to say. 

>> I don't think you need to worry about all of the testing and materials for example, but I think we 

do need to worry about those things that would impinge on the ability of a user to operate the door. 

For example, where the controls are located. How much force it takes to operate the controls. 

Provided on both the door in both operational conditions and when power is withdrawn. Those 

things. 

>> Let's get back to the issue seeing what's available of those specifications and then decide what 

pieces of that we need to adopt or recommend or add to. R

Do we need to add to the discussion about what those specs are right now. 

>> Well, I think Marsha just outlined just about everything that you need to specify. Those are all --

and whether they're made exactly to that specification or not, you know, I don't think that's an 

important thing to know. I mean, you can set the force for putting the button to anything you want. 

It's not impossible to do. The clear width opening just has to make sense, right, so you can get in 

there. So it has to meet the clear width requirement to access the restroom. I think Marsha just 

outlined, you know, 90% of that spec. You know, what is the functional need that you have to push 

forth where the handle is located, to have a back-up system. I don't -- you know, I'm not sure if they 

have specific design standards for doors. You know, we have specific, you know, standards for 
powered doors on the exterior doors for cars but they get into a lot more detail for fail-safe and other 

things like that. But I think the keys are that you're able to use it and you have enough space to get 

in and you have a bypass should it be failed. 

>> Powered doors have been common for years on trains, you know -- but one disadvantage is when 

the train -- some of them when the train tilts or rocks or goes around a curve the door either opens or 

closes involuntary and sometimes they get into this --

>> Oh, you're talking about the end doors. The end doors on Amtrak and that's the ones that do 

that and that's a function of the way the door is controlled. 

And, you know, I would think the toilet door in this instance you would want it to latch in addition to 

closing. 

>> I made a recommendation a while back in one of the earlier meetings that I hope we follow up on 

is an amendment to the controls of the operating mechanisms is that the -- any control has to be a 

minimum of say 12 inches from any inside corner because what I've seen is a lot of the buttons or the 

latches are close to the car -- there used to be in one of the accessible quote, unquote restroom 

designs years ago in some Amtrak cars they actually put the door control or latch at the -- not at the 

closing end sliding door but at the opposite end which was great for accessibility except nobody knew 

where it was so frequently people would go -- you know, the accessible seat is where that restroom 

and I would constantly see people go in there, slide the door closed, not know how to latch it and 

then at some point during their stay when the train either accelerates or decelerates or curves, the 

door would gradually slide open to some embarrassment fatally. 

So Amtrak fixed that design for obvious reasons because people thought the latch ought to be when 

the doors closed. 

>> Blair, we have let -- we have opened Pandora's box on powered doors. With the powered door 

that we're using on the new sleepers and we have gone through a lot of the very issues that Marsha 

and Frank were talking about as far as the force required and I think one of the key things is when the 

railroad folks think about powered doors we think a lot about the body indoors and the side doors 

which are pretty heavy with a lot of other requirements on them aside from the simple fact that 
they're powered doors. But when we get into interior doors like the restroom or in this case, you 

know, we have got the bedroom, you're dealing with much lighter doors. We're actually dealing 

with European-base supplier, microprocessor control, very quiet, very smooth, smart door so that if it 

encounters an obstacle it will back up and try to move forward. It will remember that obstacle just 

in case the person comes back. So I think, like I said, the cat is still out of the bag on that one and 

I'm sure we'll work out some bugs on it in service. But those kinds of things what happens when it's 

unpowered and in fail mode and managed when force is required obviously because you're 

overpowering motor is not as easy as sliding doors on its regular because it's a lot easier -- so I don't 

know if the... 

>> Rose Marie: We seem to have dropped off the line. We will be reconnecting shortly. 

>>...But with the computer control stuff, it really is really, really nice. It's very tolerant until you get 

to the very end and the door has to close and all of those things turn off, so it will close and not just, 
you know, chatter back and forth. But I think it will -- for the U.S. market, it will give us a good test 

to really pick at and have a comfort level. As I've said here at Amtrak, the lid is off Pandora's box. I

don't know that we can ever do a sliding door for an accessible restroom again without it being 

powered but that's Blair opinion at the moment. 

>> Are you -- you're saying you're actually putting those into service or building some cars like that at 

this point, Blair? 

>> Yes, Dennis --

>> When will they likely to be tested or are they in service? 

>> They are not in service and they're not going to be in service for a while because we have 

re-shuffled the way we're taking cars in from the builder. 

But I can see if there is a way if we can get some kind of a demonstration or something, but let me 

see what kind of information I can get and get it in a presentable fashion, but it is --

>> I was thinking of more in terms of a presentation of some sort that gives us the technical specs so 

we can get an idea of whether this is something that's going likely going to work and therefore we 

want to recommend or whether it's something we need to think more about, but I don't want to have 

the discussion about the ins and outs of the particular standard at this point until we have a little 

more information. 

>> Okay. Yeah, I'll get some information together, Dennis, and plug it by you and we'll get it in a 

form that works for the committee. 

>> Thanks. 

>> Based on what you were just talking act, Dennis, when we had spoken to Norgrown recently and 

they were exploring us for a new system, mainly as a customer amenity. But for us at this point in 

time you asked the question is it better to have a properly operating manual door that's designed to 

be a manual door or to have a powered door that if it's not working it's difficult to use as a manual 

door because of all the things that we're which caning on the trains to make sure they can operate, 
you really don't like to add additional components that require to be working. So if a train is late to 

leave the station, to leave the depot and the powered toilet door is not working, chances are it will 

get locked out and you won't have a toilet or go with a manually operating door. So I'm just saying 

when you write the regulations you got to be careful that you're not overly restrictive. You know, 

the idea of having a powered door for some is a customer amenity. People don't like touching door 

handles and I can understand why. A lot of people don't wash their hands half the time. But I 

guess my point is I think maybe you should leave an option to saying if you have a manual door, the 

force can be no more than this and the handle has to be accessible in a way so that you can open and 

close it without, like you're saying, it not being too close to the corner. I think you should have both 

options rather than just lock yourself into one. 

I mean, even though there's no reason why the typical door opens like Vapor and Fuji and some other 

companies that make side doors can't make toilet doors they don't. It seems to be kind of a niche 

market. Norget seems to be more in tune with that type of application and they gave us a 

demonstration and presentation and typically it's the funny doors that are curved to meet ADA 

guidelines in Europe and they power them in addition to that because it's hard to operate them. 

I don't particularly have anything against them other than reliability. But unless you absolutely need 

them, I suggest the regulation be allow both types and put the requirements under performance and 

the hand will be in the right location and the force being low enough so that you can operate it. 

(Beep) 

>> Okay. We'll consider that idea. 

Are we ready to move on to lounges? 

What do we need to say about lounges? 

Currently, the lounge car in Amtrak is usually adjacent to a dining car. It has service on the -- a 
dining car typically the kitchen is at the lower level and it's all crews space. The lounge car there is 

an upper level and lower level and the lower level has both some seating space and restroom and 

snack bar or maybe even some self- service and then an upper level. And there is a door typically to 

the outside. The lounge car several years ago -- I know that Caesar Brogara was redesigning them 

for Amtrak to make them accessible and said that after he made them accessible he thought the 

design looked better than it was before. I have never been in a lounge car so I don't know what to

say about them other than talk about the kinds of food services and counter and so forth. What 

particularly about lounges that we need to deal with? 

Anybody? 

>> This is Gary, Dennis. I would say that, you know, some of the same issues that you have in a 

dining car you're going to have in a lounge car. Like you need clear space for an occupied mobility 

device. Typically lounge cars have like cafe-style seating. A little bit different than the dining car 

but similar to the cafe car, at least our cars do. And then you would also need like stowing space. 

If you have a restroom it needs to be accessible. If there is a counter, some of the lounge cars have 

counters with kind of like -- it's not really -- Blair, you would have to correct me. I'm not aware of 

anywhere where we do self- service in a lounge car. We typically have an LSA person that it's kind 

of like a cafe car, but like a smaller version. But I think there are some things around the counter 

that you can actually grab though. 

So maybe it's kind of like a mixture. So like you would have, you know, your 110 power issue, call 

box issue, you know, seating space for transfer, seating space for occupied, stow space for occupied. 

>> This is Blair. From a service standpoint typically it's a single point of service where a diner is an 

at-seat service, so assuming there is an attendant, there's usually a lot more opportunity for selfservice and that varies by car type. Some cars everything is handed to you by the attendant. In 

others you gather your things and if something's to be cooked or heated or handling of hot drinks and 

ice and things like that are handled by the attendant and then that is passed to you and the 

transaction, the money transaction is made. But as far as seating, you do get back into the same 
things. It's made a little bit more complicated because now instead of being a single point at the 

end of the car with the wait staff coming to you you've got to be able to maneuver from wherever 

that accessible seating area is into the service point and then back to that seating again. 

So it creates some challenges. 

I think, again, and I think it would be a good exercise for Gary to look at one of the super liner 2 cars, 

that was the attempt there and I think that's, Dennis, what you were talking about from your 

conversation with Caesar. It seemed to work pretty well, but, again, it would be worth revisiting 

and maybe being a point of departure for some of the new things we're trying to do. 

>> Right now I'm not hearing that there's anything peculiar about the lounge cars that's different 

from what we have already discussed in terms of table space, food service, self- service and so forth 

and of course we want to say wherever you have the space for somebody to sit either a chair or 

transfer seat, we want to have the electrical controls -- controls and operating mechanisms available 

for that. So electrical outlets and call buttons and so forth. So I'm not hearing that there's 

anything peculiar to the lounge car that needs work other than what we have already discussed; 

that's correct? 

>> Yeah, I would agree with that. 

>> Okay. Then let's move on to talk about sleeper cars. This is the cute one. 

Uve is not on the call; that's correct? 

>> Uve is not on. 

>>> It's 2:40 now, you may want to start assigning home work for people and I'm thinking in 

particular that it would be helpful for particularly Blair and others to pull their current board plans 

and designs so everyone could become familiar with what -- what all those gray areas are today. 

In the interest of time and knowing if you don't give people homework before 3 o'clock --

>> Yeah, I think I already assigned Blair and Gary that homework. 

>> Okay. I just wanted to put that on the record. 
>> I was hoping that Uve is on the call but I think he left because I know that he has designed some 

sleeping compartments for -- I guess it was Canada or some other places that are accessible and I was 

hoping to see if -- because the ones that are the current right now in both the bi-level and the single 

level aren't very usable. They're not usable for one thing especially in the current single level car 

when you fold down the couch, basically you eliminate all the turning space. In the bi-level cars you 

can at least still turn around because the coach is at one end or one side rather. But the controls 

and operating mechanisms are completely out of range and even in the other single-level cars there 

are lights that are up above for the upper level bunk which you control which is great for the upper 

level bunk occupier, but if you happen to be in a wheelchair and you discover too late that that light 

has been left on, there's no way to turn it off. You have to call the attendant to get them to turn it 

off. So all of the controls for all of the lights need to be -- or even have duplicate controls. You 

don't necessarily need to have every single control move. You just need to be able to control all of 

the things like the heating -- HVAC, all of the likes, power and so forth from -- and the door latch from 

an accessible location. 

You could have duplicates if you want. You could have all of the controls moved down lower or 

keep two controls that are in sequence or for that matter you can have a remote. Although the 

problem with the remote is it would probably disappear. 

>> Dennis, this is Marsha. I'm not so sure that we would be in a position to regulate personal 

property like a remote. That's one of the things that is getting to be more and more difficult with 

this rulemaking particularly in communications as well because we want to talk about acts and other 

things that might be within our jurisdiction. 

>> I wasn't suggesting writing the reg for the remote. I was only suggesting that you have an 

obligation to make sure that all the controls are within the right operable space. If you wanted to 

do that with a remote, that's a separate issue that you can deal with. But you have to be sure that 

the functional requirement is that all the controls have to be available at the location and within an 
accessible area, but all of the functions within that --

>> Right. So we would have to write a standard for those things to be within reach and to be part of 

the train is my point only. 

You did ask everybody to take a look at the controls and operating mechanisms, provisions and other 

provisions in the ADA standards that would be analogous to the things to which we have concern, 

and --

>> Right. 

>> And, for example, operable parts there is a provision allowing for controls and saying that only 

one, you know, multiple controls for the same element has to be acceptable. So maybe that can be 

something, an assignment that we remind people to go back and thumb through the ADA standards 

looking for those things that might also be on the train. 

>> Right. And I think we adopted them almost verbatim for the bus proposal. But just in case you 

should look at that, see if there's something in there that's worth bringing forth or making sure that 

it's covered, so I think we picked you up most of them and put them into the proposed bus route. 

>> Dennis, this is Blair. I just wanted to bring up that you brought up a very good point and it's right 

in line of what I've been thinking as far as how do we manage the controls. The quander you have 

particularly with a sleeping car, in most architecture situations you have a bedroom and the light 

switch is by the bed. They're there. You have a living room, a restroom, you have all those things 

and they're discreet spaces within your environment. 

With the train sleeping room you have got all of those things sort of piled in the same place. 

And then you add to that, there's some of the complexities of space. With most situations on the 

train you don't have the depth of a wall, a 4-inch thick wall that you do in building situations. 

Sometimes it's only a half inch or less. So the space for all of these devices gets to be even more 

than a challenge and my thinking was that if we went to a remote, whether it's tethered or a loose 

part, I'd rather have tethered so I know it's only there that that may give the greatest flexibility to 

people depending on their various abilities and how they may choose to sleep with their head one 
way or the other in the bedroom and take into account that the room converts from let's say a bed or 

a seat -- I'm sorry, a seat or a couch into a bed. So your proximity to controls has suddenly changed 

from what it would be during the day and if we -- I think that would be maybe a good place for us to 

go or maybe as long as -- if we're just going to say they have to be within reach and you leave it up to 

the various authorities how they do it. But from my standpoint how I'm looking at the future and 

then what can we do to roll back existing equipment because we want everything to be accessible, I 

think a remote could be a really good way of managing that. 

>> Yeah. This is Marilyn. 

Remote worries me a lot, even tethers. I think controls are the way to go. Although, Blair, I think 

you're right that where you put your head, et cetera, can affect reaching those and, I mean, we don't 

even have research on create a line down or anything that I know of, but -- so that's one piece. 

Or not to consider remote even though I see the advantages you're pointing out. The other thing I 

wanted to say and I had to step away for a few minutes while we were talking about this. I mean, 

and the sleeper car it's a different point. In the sleeper car, like all the different elements are there 

but I remember there were things like the only place to sit and eat my dinner -- you know, people's 

testimonials, the only place to sit and eat my dinner was on the toilet. Is there a table mandated or 

I'm just trying to think of space and -- I mean, not everything is amenities. Some things are just the 

livability of the space or I'm not sure how to word that. 

>> This is Blair. 

I think there's already requirements for the hard surface to have a meal and those kinds of things. 

>> In the sleeping compartment I mean at this point. 

>> Yes. 

>> I think they're already required. I think where we have slipped on that in the past is we took the 

same table that we used everywhere and I mean in all the other rooms and, you know, if it didn't -- if 

it wasn't high enough, then it wasn't useful as a table to eat on. 
>> That's the problem with -- the same height is designed for sitting on the cash or in the seat in that 

case and you can't get your knees under it and if you're trying to sit in a wheelchair and move up to 

that and you don't want to transfer, then it's practically impossible to use, but the issue of how -- I 

think what we need do is set some parameters in terms of the availability of controls and redundant 

controls is a possibility and it may be that you have controls on one spot and a remote somewhere 

else and they both work. I mean, I'm not sure that we need to get into the fine detail of this so 

much of setting the performance requirement that all of those things have to be available and have 

to be usable. 

>> Dennis, in emergency portable housing we simply say there needs to be a means to control 

portable lighting from the bed. That may not be sufficient in terms of, you know -- it's not terribly 

precise, but it certainly gives people the idea and emergency transportable housing people were 

saying there's no space for extra -- there's no space for an end table, a bedside table with a lamp on 

it, so now I'm happy to turn off the light and transfer into my bed in the dark. 

And I would suspect that the concern would be quite similar on a rail car. 

Getting back to Marilyn's comment about the only place to sit was on the toilet, you know, while I 

was eating my meal, I know that there are a lot of parts and there are a lot of balls in the air right 

now, but have you given any thought or will you give some thought to the overriding issue of 

segregation an option to where you eat or where you, you know, in comparison to what other people 

have? 

Because in some cases people with disabilities the only option they have for their meals is in their 

sleeping room. Others they have other options and make some sense to articulate some principle 

of -- regardless of whether or not we get to the second level dining car or whether you can get to the 

dining car at all, do you want to deal with that whole notion of everybody else has an opportunity to 

leave their room, take their meal elsewhere? 

>> Marsha, this is Gary. If I could just go back to the controls for a moment...what I would suggest 

on the sleeper car controls especially for the lights and stuff, to me you have to have a double set of 
controls. 

One has to be accessible from a person who's in a mobility device because there's some people that 

don't consider and they're going to say in their mobility device and then for people that transfer into 

the bed there is a couch that becomes a bed you ought to be able to turn the lights off when you're 

seated so you don't have to make that transfer in the dark. 

>> I wasn't suggesting that you adopt that language. But I did want to get back to Marilyn's point. 

>> No, I understand. I just wanted to get back to Marilyn's point about not just going to the remote 

when today you have a set of controls that you can access while you're seated like on the coach or 

the bed, we don't have a set of controls that I'm aware of that would be accessible when you're just 

in your wheeled mobility device and I think it would be easy to fix that. 

>> Yeah, I think that's a very simple and easy but the other issues are bigger thing to wrestle with and 

maybe one that may be worthy of the committee's time. 

>> Yeah, absolutely. I don't want to see us missing opportunity on the control time so you don't 

have to ring a buzzer to get somebody to turn the light off in a upper car. 

>> Dennis, are you satisfied that you talked about like depending on several variables that the door to 

the unit might slide open and close because if you latch it to the inside, then you may need -- and you 

can't. I'm not sure how to solve all that. 

>> Okay. This is an issue that I experienced which is a sliding door on the compartment. This is on 

the bilevel sleeping cars in which the compartment talks up the full width of the car at the lower 

level. 

The sliding door didn't have a functioning latch that actually latched the door shut and what it had on 

the inside was essentially a hook I think it was probably broken or whatever. If I had closed the door 

and latched the hook, like screen door hook, there would have been no way for an attendant to get in 

that car from the outside. And if I left it open unlatched because the attendant was going to bring 

the meals and so forth and I didn't leave it open and when we went around the corner, the door 

would slide open. And when we turned the other way, the door would slide close. And there was 

a restroom right next to that for everybody else and for some reason, maybe this is not policy. This 
is a separate issue but there was no exhaust fan in that restroom so it became quite uncomfortable to 

be in that compartment. So one requirement in terms of controls and operating mechanisms which 

probably has to be added is that in my opinion the door has to have a positive latch that would keep 

the door closed and that latch has to be operable from the outside by a conductor using the special 

key so that the conductor can always get in. It might be to bring you food. It might also be to help 

you if you found that you fell out of your wheelchair or something and needed some help so I think 

it's very important that the attendant be able to get in to the compartment but that every 

compartment door has to have a latch that meets the other kinds of operable parts things act force, 

turning and twisting and so forth. 

>> Dennis, this is Blair. And what you just described is what we have done on the new sleeping 

rooms. 

It is a powered door and obviously you go in your room, close the door, but the switch that you hit 

outside the room is still live and any kid can run down the hall and push that button. So what we 

have done is combined functions. When you go in the room and the door closes, there is a handle 

that flips over and it mechanically locks the door but it also disabilities the switch on the outside. 

Now, that handle is controllable with a coach key that the conductor has. 

So if you have an issue, you can call the attendant and they'll call and unlatch that. 

We take it a step further in that if you -- because this door traverses two parts of the room and 

crosses the space -- the entrance to the shower, if you should fall or maybe your wheelchair or piece 

of luggage ends up behind the door, now the door won't open all the way. It physically can't 

because it's blocked. The hallway window is sack saysble to the crew to come to remove the 

window and come in. Or there's actually a method where they drop a seating panel and very 

quickly they can actually take the door down. There's four screws and the wrench is part of the 

assembly and in an emergency, they can actually take that door down and move it right out of the 

way and get in there. So we have tried to think through the normal operation and the emergency 

conditions and the manual conditions as well on that and it end up not being everything controlled by 

a computer and electricity but a reasonable accommodation of both manual -- or mechanical and 
electrical devices. 

>> Yeah, if I can comment on Dennis's point --

>> Actually, Gary, we are about out of time and need to jump in here and sort of at least make a 

couple of housekeeping things and basically say our next meeting is scheduled for June 19th from 

1:00 to 3:00, same time frame on a Thursday. Gary, I hate to cut you off but I think at this point in 

time we have got about enough time which is a minute and a half for Dennis to make some closing 

remarks and that's about it. 

>> Okay T. closing remarks is basically I want to make sure we get some drawing and diagrams and 

whatnot. Some of the things especially if you have got a specification for those latches I would love 

to see it. We may just need to have kind of a performance requirement. 

But I think it's going to be really critical for us to get some look at what -- some of the issues are with 

respect to layout and drawings and diagrams to show us how these things are going to work so we 

can look and make some suggestions about improvements and I hope everybody will take a look at 

the ADA/ABA requirements for knee and toe clearance and controls and operating mechanisms as 

well as the controls of operating mechanisms in the proposed NPRM for the buses, the changes. 

>> Dennis, where is that NPRM available? 

>> It's on the website. I'll respond to your e-mail and send a link to you >> Oh, okay. Thanks. 

>> Actually if you look at the agenda right over to the right, one of the links has updated guidelines 

for buses and vans. 

>> Okay. That's it. Okay. Thank you. 

>> Okay. 

>> Jim? 

>> Okay. I think that basically concludes the meeting. I appreciate everybody's input and coming 
in and we will talk to you next time on the 19th. 

Have a good day. 

>> Thank you, everybody. 

>> Thank you. 

>> Bye, guys. 

>> Thank you, operator. This is the Access Board signing off. Please disconnect all lines. 

>> Thank you. Have a great day. 

( End )