# Date: May 5, 2015

**Case:** ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Phone: 202-347-3700 Fax: 202-737-3638 Email: info@acefederal.com Internet: www.acefederal.comASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY PUBLIC MEETING ASRAC MISCELLANEOUS REFRIGERATION WORKING GROUP MEETING

U.S. Department of Energy Forrestal Building, Room 8E-089 1000 Independence Avenue, SW Washington, DC 20585

9:00 a.m. Tuesday, May 5, 2015ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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### 1 

## Appearances for Department of Energy Meeting 2 3 

## Javier Ramirez, Facilator, Federal Mediation & 4 

## Conciliation Service 5 

## Sarah Butler, DOE 6 

## Joseph Hagerman, DOE 7 

## Brenda Edwards, DOE 8 

## Timothy Ballo, Earthjustice 9 

## Bill A. Brown, GE Home & Business Solutions 10 

## Jennifer Cleary, Association of Home Appliance 11 

## Manufacturers (AHAM) 12 

## Mary Dane, Traulsen 13 

## Charles Hon, True Manufacturing 14 

## Chris Kuch, Southern California Edison 15 

## Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness Project 16 

## (ASAP) 17 

## Dan Orman, Haler America Tech Center 18 

## Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizai America, Inc. 19 

## Richard F. Topping, Sub-Zero Group, Inc. 20 

## Roland Marciniak, U-Line Corp 21 

## Judith Reich, Navigant 22 

## Troy Watson, NavigantASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Good morning. I'm 2 

## Eileen Barkas Hoffman. Welcome to the negotiated 3 

## rulemaking. We are here from 9 to 5. If we get 4 

## going maybe we will even be able to end a little 5 

## sooner, we will see. A couple of things, a couple of 6 

## announcements -- first so you have maximum 7 

## consistency we have brought in my colleague Ted 8 

## Bantle. 9 

## He will be hearing and meeting you and we 10 

## will make sure there is coverage for all of your 11 

## meetings. What we hope to do today is also work on 12 

## the dates so that everyone knows when our dates are 13 

## for this fairly accelerated schedule. We want to go 14 

## around the room for introductions and any opening 15 

## comments and when we get to Charlie and Jenn who are 16 

## from -- our co-chairs from ASRAC if you want to say a 17 

## few words about ASRAC please feel free to do that too 18 

## and also find out who is on the line and who is the 19 

## public. 20 

## So before we get started good morning and 21 

## I am also very pleased we are all here today except 22 

## for one person who we are in touch with and lookASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## forward to having his participation for the next 2 

## meeting. Okay, I'm Eileen Barkas Hoffman, one of the 3 

## facilitators. 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Javier Ramirez and I'll make 5 

## a couple of brief comments before we get started but 6 

## at the end. 7 

## MR. HERMOSILLO: Isael Hermosillo. 8 

## MR. ORMAN: Dan Orman, Haier America. 9 

## MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo, Earthjustice. 10 

## MR. MOUW: Nathan Mouw with Whirlpool. 11 

## MR. MARCINIAK: Roland Marciniak with 12 

## U-Line. 13 

## MS. DANE-GREENHOW: Mary Dane with 14 

## Trulsen. 15 

## MR. SCHAEFER: Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki 16 

## America. 17 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing 18 

## and ASRAC member. We are -- Jennifer and I are the 19 

## two ASRAC members assigned to this Committee to 20 

## report back to the parent Committee on results, 21 

## direction, skill, lots of activities, thank you. 22 

## MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary with AHAM andASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## also ASRAC member and I don't have anything to add 2 

## other than what Charlie said. 3 

## MR. KUCH: Chris Kuch, Southern California 4 

## Edison. 5 

## MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance 6 

## Standards Awareness Project. 7 

## MR. BROWN: Bill Brown, GE Appliances. 8 

## MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, 9 

## Sub-Zero-Wolf., 10 

## MS. BUTLER: Sarah Butler, DOE. 11 

## MR. WATSON: Troy Watson with Navigant. 12 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. 13 

## MR. BANTLE: Ted Bantle, Federal 14 

## Mediation. 15 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so I had mentioned 16 

## to -- oh. 17 

## MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Wait. 18 

## MS. REICH: Judith Reich from Navigant. 19 

## MR. YOUNG: Scott Young, Lawrence Berkeley 20 

## National Laboratory. 21 

## MR. STEM: Mike Stem, Intertek. 22 

## MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman. OnASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## the webinar we have folks from Emerson, Electrolux 2 

## and New York State. 3 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so I had mentioned 4 

## when we were assembling that I slept like a baby last 5 

## night. Trying to keep up with you all I think you 6 

## really exhausted me so it is technical and one of the 7 

## things that I am constantly amazed at when we get 8 

## these folks together is truly the smart folks that 9 

## are accumulated for these type of meetings. 10 

## And with all of these smart folks in the 11 

## room we should be able to figure something out right? 12 

## And what the DOE tries to do is they try to provide 13 

## some structure for the conversation, at least to get 14 

## the ball rolling. And one thing that I will tell you 15 

## all is that if the structure that is provided, if it 16 

## is not working let us know what does right, but if -- 17 

## hopefully when we get started here I think Troy tried 18 

## to come up with a revised definition based on some of 19 

## the comments that were made yesterday and we can 20 

## start off with that. 21 

## One thing I do want to empower you with is 22 

## the ELMO, Enough Let's Move On. Right? BecauseASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## there are times where I may not realize that you are 2 

## beating a dead horse or we are way off into the weeds 3 

## and if I am not picking up on that I am sure that you 4 

## all are. Anyone can call an ELMO and say hey we are 5 

## way off track here, enough let's move on and we will 6 

## refocus the conversation. Any questions on that? 7 

## All right. 8 

## So with that I will pass it over to DOE 9 

## and to Troy to give us an idea of what you are 10 

## thinking for yesterday and how we can start today. 11 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Sure. Joe Hagerman, DOE. 12 

## So we worked last night with Ashley and the Navigant 13 

## team to kind of re-craft some definitions after the 14 

## discussion and I believe they sent the power point to 15 

## you if you can pull that up. 16 

## We think this reflects the conversation a 17 

## little bit better on the display. 18 

## MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Can you see or am I 19 

## blocking? 20 

## MR. WATSON: So I think -- this is Troy 21 

## Watson from Navigant. A lot of the discussion 22 

## yesterday was around the 90 degree issue and howASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## compressor and non-compressor products would be 2 

## separated. So this just pulls up the proposed 3 

## definition for a refrigerator from the test procedure 4 

## NOPR and it sounded like the group was going towards 5 

## clarifying that the temperatures would be determined 6 

## in the 90 degree Fahrenheit and then there was a 7 

## bunch of discussion about separating out the 8 

## non-compressor products. 9 

## And number 2 down here would actually take 10 

## care of that by clarifying that those types of 11 

## products would be excluded from the current 12 

## refrigerators. So we had a lot of discussion and it 13 

## sounds that there weren't a lot of changes that were 14 

## actually necessary to this definition so it would be 15 

## good to get the group's feedback on that. 16 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I'm purposing letting the 17 

## pause in there so you all can read it. 18 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I will make this offer too, 19 

## if we need to take a -- and this is up here and 20 

## people have digested, if you want to take a break as 21 

## a group and go huddle in the back room you are 22 

## welcome to and talk about this.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. RAMIREZ: So are there any questions? 2 

## Go ahead. 3 

## MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. I 4 

## mean just a couple of comments. And we haven't 5 

## gotten to this yet but in terms of the solid 6 

## compartments being less than half the refrigerated 7 

## volume that's something that's open for discussion 8 

## hopefully later on. 9 

## I think number 2 there I know what the 10 

## intent is -- the intent there is to not include 11 

## remote condensing unit products. The issue is that 12 

## this is going to include thermal electrics, they 13 

## don't have compressors and condensers either so we 14 

## will have to just wordsmith that. 15 

## MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. 16 

## So if we say it's excluding products that do not 17 

## include a compressor and condenser wouldn't that 18 

## exclude several electric products? 19 

## MR. TOPPING: Aaaaaa. 20 

## MR. WATSON: So the term does not include 21 

## any so. 22 

## MR. TOPPING: Well I mean thermal electricASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## does not have a compressor and condenser as an 2 

## integral part of the cabinet. 3 

## MR. HAGERMAN: All right so it is not 4 

## including -- 5 

## MR. TOPPING: So this does not include 6 

## thermal electric. Okay so we are not attempting to 7 

## as we suggested yesterday include thermal electrics 8 

## in this issue. 9 

## MR. WATSON: This is just the refrigerator 10 

## definition, so standard -- 11 

## MR. TOPPING: I understand, but the 12 

## discussion yesterday was whether it would be possible 13 

## to take thermal electric refrigerators out of the 14 

## miscellaneous category and put it in post category. 15 

## I mean that was a discussion that we brought up at 16 

## the end of the day. 17 

## MS. BUTLER: I think the problem with 18 

## doing that is this is something that comes directly 19 

## out of EPCA, this is Sarah Butler, DOE, so our 20 

## position right now is that we can't go beyond what is 21 

## allowed under the statute of product coverage under 22 

## the definition of refrigerator.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. TOPPING: Dick again, I will just push 2 

## back a little bit and say I mean I believe the intent 3 

## of this group is to try to break down some barriers 4 

## if they make sense and so the issue is, is this a 5 

## drop-dead no discussion, no deliberation, no take it 6 

## upstairs to really determine that or is that 7 

## something we just can't talk about. 8 

## MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler, DOE. I 9 

## will take it back to my supervisor but really we are 10 

## pretty bound by the language in the statute, so I 11 

## will talk to my supervisor, talk about it some more. 12 

## MR. TOPPING: Just one other thing we were 13 

## discussing this morning, you know, anecdotal but the 14 

## issue is technology changes, technology advances and 15 

## you know we are talking about other technologies that 16 

## someday may be part of discussions such as this, 17 

## magnetic refrigeration you know, name any and so you 18 

## know if we are going to be bound by this definition 19 

## it goes back to the 80's or whenever it is and 20 

## whenever a new technology comes forward that is not 21 

## driven by compressor then it is going to have to go 22 

## in to some other bucket, you know.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## We developed this miscellaneous 2 

## refrigeration bucket now. The question is that 3 

## long-term what's the best way to do it? You know in 4 

## the long-term should anything that is -- provides the 5 

## function of a refrigerator be in one category of 6 

## refrigerators with other product classes and 7 

## everything that we have now, you know dealt with all 8 

## in one piece instead of you know, patching it into 9 

## here's this product that doesn't meet the definition 10 

## but maybe is a refrigerator but since it doesn't meet 11 

## it we should shove it over here. 12 

## That's what has to be done, obviously that 13 

## is what has to be done but it is probably a good time 14 

## to bring up the issue is there is some flexibility in 15 

## expanding this now because it is going to happen 16 

## again. 17 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman. I don't 18 

## think we disagree, I think we are just bound to the 19 

## statutory -- it's above our collective pay rates. 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Jennifer and then 21 

## Charlie. 22 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary. I don't want toASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## beat the dead horse but I think DOE should really 2 

## consider this carefully because it doesn't -- kind of 3 

## what you are saying doesn't make a lot of sense to 4 

## me. If you are bound by EPCA to not consider 5 

## non-compressor products you are considering them. 6 

## You are determining coverage separately so it is like 7 

## form over substance right? If you are going to cover 8 

## non-compressor products and they are refrigerators, 9 

## they don't have a different consumer utility it is 10 

## just a different technology and they fit under the 11 

## existing EPCA definition then I would think you know 12 

## through your regulations you should be able to 13 

## account for that. 14 

## It doesn't make sense to say well we can't 15 

## cover them as refrigerators so we are going to like 16 

## call them something different. I don't know and when 17 

## we were talking yesterday I think Ashley mentioned it 18 

## seemed simpler and as I was thinking about it 19 

## overnight it really doesn't seem simpler to me 20 

## because I don't see how we are ever going to get them 21 

## either you know regulated at the same time as you 22 

## know currently covered refrigerators.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## If we set a standard in this group they 2 

## are going to be like 3-4 years different than regular 3 

## refrigerators, we are not going to unify them. They 4 

## are basically going to be treated as a separate 5 

## product class which I think is to get the whole 6 

## intent of covering in the first place, they should be 7 

## included in the analysis with all refrigerators. 8 

## They should all be treated equally regardless of the 9 

## technology so I just feel like we have to figure out 10 

## how to meet what I think the Department's goal is and 11 

## even proposing to cover these products in the first 12 

## place. 13 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie? 14 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing. 15 

## I have one comment on the last two bullet points of i 16 

## and ii -- ANSI UL 471 has a parallel standard UL 250 17 

## which is UL is pretty particular on how they apply 18 

## those two standards so they wouldn't be crossing 19 

## over. But ANSI and SF 7 is a one of a kind type 20 

## standard for sanitation and this can be used as an 21 

## avoidance of regulation because if you are using that 22 

## as an exception and not getting -- you can spendASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## $10,000 and get ANSI Standard 7 on any refrigeration 2 

## product in which case you wouldn't have to meet the 3 

## energy standard because you would be exempted from 4 

## it. 5 

## MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson from 6 

## Navigant. So that gets back to what we discussed in 7 

## the previous public meetings about trying to exclude 8 

## commercial type products from these definitions and I 9 

## think that's a whole other issue that we will be 10 

## getting into quite a bit and we will be looking for 11 

## the group's feedback on that for sure but I think at 12 

## this point it probably makes the most sense to tackle 13 

## the separation, the temperatures, the issues. 14 

## MR. HON: Charlie, and I totally agree we 15 

## will get to that in due time but I just wanted to 16 

## note the fact that if we follow this explicitly we 17 

## have a problem built into the system. 18 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, I think you 19 

## understand the intent of what we are trying to do so 20 

## help us fulfill that intent wherever possible. 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So the question I have for 22 

## you all is if the non-compressor pieces -- why isASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## that the sticking point here? If you all are trying 2 

## to create standards and test procedures, there are 3 

## some that apply to refrigerators now and they are 4 

## saying that these are -- they should be categorized 5 

## under refrigerator or prevent you from using what's 6 

## for refrigerator for the non-compressor 7 

## refrigerators. 8 

## MS. CLEARY: Because then, I mean the 9 

## analysis and maybe DOE could address this I'm sure 10 

## better than I can but the analysis should include 11 

## looking at all technologies and if they are separated 12 

## out they are going to be treated differently because 13 

## they are only going -- the analysis will only 14 

## consider those products. Whereas if it is considered 15 

## under refrigerators then the analysis will take them 16 

## into account as well in terms of their energy use and 17 

## all of the products will be treated and regulated the 18 

## same. 19 

## Maybe someone else can say that much better than I 20 

## can. 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie or Tim, either one? 22 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I think theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## problem exists to the existing regulations that are 2 

## specific on what is not covered and I don't believe 3 

## this ASRAC Committee has the right to go back and 4 

## change that. So by not being able to change that 5 

## portion of it now we have to create a parallel 6 

## system. 7 

## MR. BALLO: So this is Tim with 8 

## Earthjustice. 9 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on, maybe not parallel 10 

## -- Joe Hagerman again. Maybe not a parallel but a 11 

## complimentary right? 12 

## MR. HON: Yes I think that is a more 13 

## accurate term because they are not going to be 14 

## exactly parallel, they are going to be staggered. 15 

## MR. BALLO: Tim with Earthjustice. 16 

## There's two problems that I can think of. One is I 17 

## think the one that Jenn was discussing where DOE 18 

## would have to set a standard for non-compressor 19 

## refrigerators that only looks at what's possible for 20 

## non-compressor refrigerators which is sort of 21 

## inherently a more limited technology in terms of its 22 

## energy efficiency than vapor compression units whichASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## are already refrigerators. 2 

## The other issue is lining up the dates. 3 

## The statute is very explicit, timelines for DOE 4 

## review of existing standards going forward so 5 

## refrigerator standards have already been set a few 6 

## years ago, there will be another rulemaking coming up 7 

## in a couple of years to amend those current standards 8 

## but if we are setting non-compressor refrigerator 9 

## standards in this proceeding that will be on a 10 

## different schedule then for free chair reviews and 11 

## the standards will never really -- will always be 12 

## sort of out of sync with each other. 13 

## MS. HOFFMAN: A quick question, Eileen 14 

## Hoffman. What if the wording is that it will follow 15 

## the same timeframe as the -- I'm just trying to -- 16 

## the refrigerator standards so that even though it is 17 

## separate it is going to be and maybe even define that 18 

## it will include some of the refrigerator, I am just 19 

## throwing that in. If in fact this is something that 20 

## building on what Jenn said about form over substance. 21 

## If the form is that it can't be for 22 

## whatever legal reasons together, the substance can beASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## and if it can be worded that way, I could ask. 2 

## MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman again. 3 

## I think the whole timing issues is sort of an 4 

## administrative thing with you know we could push, or 5 

## this group could make a recommendation, the secretary 6 

## such that you know they get enacted and they get 7 

## enforced and everything at the same time. That's 8 

## what is in his sort of control. I don't see what 9 

## that -- I wouldn't stop you know our work here over 10 

## that administrative issue but it's really counter to 11 

## that. 12 

## MR. BALLO: So the Department's position 13 

## is that there is flexibility under 325(l) to avoid 14 

## the five year -- 15 

## MR. HAGERMAN: No I think the Department's 16 

## position is you know this group could make a 17 

## recommendation to the secretary for him to consider 18 

## how this gets implemented in line with the current 19 

## refrigeration. 20 

## MR. BALLO: Okay but I don't understand 21 

## why the line is drawn there and not at the 22 

## definition. If we can make a recommendation thatASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## seems to be a little bit at odds with 325(l) why we 2 

## couldn't make a recommendation that is a little bit 3 

## at odds with 322(a)(1). 4 

## MR. HAGERMAN: No, I think the 5 

## department's issue -- 6 

## MR. BALLO: Okay I don't understand why 7 

## the line -- 8 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Dick? 9 

## MR. TOPPING: Sorry. 10 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So what amendments do you 11 

## need to make to this in order to make this work then 12 

## as a group? 13 

## MR. HAGERMAN: And we have one more slide, 14 

## this is the first slide then we can go to the next 15 

## slide, did you get it? Now let's give everybody a 16 

## few seconds to read this one. 17 

## MR. WATSON: Yeah and just to clarify 18 

## these are pretty much the same definitions I think 19 

## it's just the ambient temperature that would need to 20 

## be clarified based on the discussion from yesterday 21 

## and once that seems to be harmonized everything falls 22 

## out into separate categories pretty easily but yeah,ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## take a look. 2 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna I had a 3 

## question just so I can try to understand what the 4 

## potential options are. So if non-compressor 5 

## refrigerators were to be a separate category, would 6 

## we have the option of applying the current 7 

## refrigerator standards to those products or would it 8 

## have to be kind of as Jenn was describing? 9 

## MS. BUTLER: In -- this is Sarah Butler, 10 

## DOE. In theory but you couldn't forego the analysis 11 

## that's associated with that in proposing, you would 12 

## have to you know do the analysis, propose a standard, 13 

## seek comment and see if it could line up with that 14 

## but you couldn't just propose those standards without 15 

## the analysis. 16 

## MS. MAUER: Okay. 17 

## I think as Jenn was saying I 18 

## think that would be very limiting in terms of what we 19 

## could do for those products. I would also say that I 20 

## think perhaps in the past in some cases DOE has you 21 

## know in the context of you know a consensus of a 22 

## broad group of stakeholders, DOE has determined thatASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## they have a little bit more flexibility in what they 2 

## can do compared to a traditional rulemaking process 3 

## so we would encourage DOE to consider that. 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Nate? 5 

## MR. MOUW: I would just note and I don't 6 

## recall if it was non-compressor, this is Nate from 7 

## Whirlpool. I don't recall if it was non-compressor 8 

## refrigerator or thermal electric cooled cabinets, but 9 

## I recall in I think the preliminary TSD that one of 10 

## the technology options was to add a compressor. That 11 

## seems at odds with this approach in that to add a 12 

## compressor then moves -- well I guess that's not 13 

## relevant for a non-compressor refrigerator so is that 14 

## a change in approach of the TSD? 15 

## MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson from 16 

## Navigant. That would apply for the cooled cabinets 17 

## and the definition up here would cover both thermal 18 

## electric and vapor compression and cooled cabinets 19 

## and in the preliminary analysis we considered that as 20 

## a single product class, so moving to vapor 21 

## compression was one of the technology options for 22 

## that product category.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## For the non-compressor refrigerators, that 2 

## doesn't show up as a step because they are defined as 3 

## not having a compressor. 4 

## MR. MOUW: Okay thank you. This is Nate 5 

## from Whirlpool so perhaps maybe looking forward for 6 

## non-compressor refrigerators, thinking about 7 

## technology options -- I'm just trying to think you 8 

## know if you have got multiple types of technology 9 

## included in a non-compressor refrigerator could be 10 

## thermal electric, it could be absorption, it could be 11 

## a magnetic refrigeration technology that is being 12 

## developed by parties so I am just trying to think 13 

## through how technology options would work for that 14 

## product class that includes multiple different 15 

## technologies. 16 

## MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. 17 

## That's something the working group will have to 18 

## consider down the road once we start getting into the 19 

## standards having discussion a bit more and if the 20 

## group feels like those different technologies should 21 

## be split into different private classes for utility 22 

## reasons, then that is something we will get intoASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## after setting up these definitions where we start 2 

## talking about product class splits. So I see what 3 

## you are saying and I think that's just a little more 4 

## down the road from where we are now. 5 

## MR. HAGERMAN: You know again, this is a 6 

## proposal for us to discuss if there is a counter, or 7 

## make amendments to -- all this work is a product of 8 

## you guys right. We are just putting the initial 9 

## conversation piece out there. 10 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn? 11 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary. I guess the 12 

## sense I am getting from the room and places others 13 

## have been if I am wrong, but the sense I am getting 14 

## is we kind of need DOE's blessing before we can do 15 

## what we want, which is I kind of get the sense and I 16 

## don't know I don't think we have heard from everyone 17 

## but I get the sense that we would like to see 18 

## refrigerators defined to include non-compressor 19 

## refrigerators and that DOE is saying that may not be 20 

## possible so at least I wouldn't be ready to vote if 21 

## we go to the previous slide, I wouldn't be able right 22 

## now to vote yes to what was in number 2 on theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## previous slide. 2 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Let's get Tim and then 3 

## Stephen. 4 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Let me just real quick, Joe 5 

## Hagerman from DOE. You know if we need to take a 6 

## break we can walk down and grab Dan and he can come 7 

## back up here and give the kind of formal 8 

## interpretation and then we can move past that point. 9 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So let me ask Tim and 10 

## Stephen would that be beneficial? 11 

## MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earthjustice, 12 

## yes I just wanted to make one point that is a little 13 

## bit tangential to this. We have been talking about 14 

## non-compressor refrigerators but the definition of 15 

## refrigerator is integral compressor, condenser 16 

## refrigerators. So there are at least some products 17 

## out there today that are non-integral compressor, 18 

## condenser refrigerators and is there an opportunity 19 

## to make the non-compressor refrigerator definition a 20 

## non-integral compressor refrigerator definition? 21 

## MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. 22 

## That -- I don't believe that was the intent ideallyASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## on this rule but I am not really familiar with those 2 

## products how they are used so I can't really speak to 3 

## whether they should be included or not. 4 

## MR. BALLO: I know they are pretty much a 5 

## niche product today but as long as we are in the 6 

## business of stamping out potential loopholes this 7 

## seems like an opportunity to address. 8 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie? 9 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I think we have to 10 

## be very careful because DOE has already defined the 11 

## term refrigerator as a compressor based product so 12 

## now we are going to have to come up with a different 13 

## word than refrigerator or a series of words other 14 

## than refrigerator, probably non-compressor 15 

## refrigerator as a terminology so that we are not in 16 

## any conflict. 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I -- then let me suggest 18 

## that we take a break then and see if we can get Dan 19 

## up here to address the non-compressor piece, right. 20 

## So how much time do you think you need? Let's take 21 

## 10 minutes. 22 

## (BREAK)ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. RAMIREZ: All right. 2 

## MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: We are back on the 3 

## record, Charlie we are back on the record, hi. 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so we have the 5 

## General Counsel here so Sarah would you mind 6 

## summarizing or someone summarizing the question that 7 

## was posed for Dan and see if we get some clarity? 8 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Let's do it this way, Joe 9 

## Hagerman from DOE -- why don't people express the 10 

## kind of comments they just gave to us so Dan could 11 

## hear the comments in your own words and then he could 12 

## respond. 13 

## MR. BALLO: So this is Tim with 14 

## Earthjustice. I think my sense is a working group 15 

## generally would like to treat non-compressor 16 

## refrigerators the same as compressor refrigerators 17 

## that are already covered, to apply the same standards 18 

## on the same schedule. 19 

## One of the stumbling blocks seems to be 20 

## this provision in Section 322(a) which defines -- I 21 

## hate using that term, but identifies the 22 

## refrigerators that are covered products under theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## NAECA standard. It however is not a definition of 2 

## refrigerators, it is not in the definition section 3 

## and I think the placement of that limitation in the 4 

## coverage section of the statute limits its 5 

## application to the refrigerators that were covered by 6 

## the NAECA standards. 7 

## DOE -- because it is not a definition, is 8 

## free to augment and add products to the covered 9 

## products so that the covered product won't 10 

## necessarily be just refrigerators, refrigerator 11 

## freezers and freezers, it will be refrigerators, 12 

## refrigerator freezers initially refrigeration 13 

## products essentially. 14 

## If there's another way for us to get at 15 

## this issue to make the products adhere to the same 16 

## standards on the same schedule we are open to do that 17 

## but this seemed one way to do it. 18 

## MR. COHEN: So this is Dan Cohen, General 19 

## Counsel's office at DOE. So the way we -- it's not 20 

## just in this particular issue generically the way 21 

## that we have read Section 292 is it defines the 22 

## covered products. A list of covered products thatASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## the statute says are what are subject to standards 2 

## and where DOE's authority lies. There are obviously 3 

## other products in 6295 that aren't listed here but we 4 

## also treat as covered products, for instance things 5 

## like battery chargers or commercial pre-rinse spray 6 

## valves, those things that whatever Congress chose to 7 

## put them in the substantive provision without putting 8 

## them into this list of covered products. 9 

## But we read that as defining the world of 10 

## the covered product that Congress chose to create. 11 

## So in this case that would be refrigerators absent 12 

## those that don't have compressors. The -- what you 13 

## are suggesting to be perfectly honest is akin to and 14 

## without boring everybody else with the legal niceties 15 

## of this, a case you are very well aware of because 16 

## you were on brief along with us that we lost in the 17 

## DC Circuit where we sort of did something very akin 18 

## to what you are suggesting right now and the DC 19 

## Circuit said that was not the way to go about adding 20 

## coverage for new products, that the way to do it 21 

## under 20 -- under paragraph 20 of that same section 22 

## where you go through and make a determination if aASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## product meets a particular set of criteria under 20, 2 

## being that we make a determination that it is the 3 

## statute -- you know it fits the purpose of the 4 

## statute and meets certain threshold use criteria. 5 

## And so because it is that list of covered 6 

## products which is a defined term, we don't believe we 7 

## have the ability to go anything outside of that, of 8 

## what the world of Congress established in the statute 9 

## as the covered product. To add something -- calling 10 

## it the same thing as that covered product and saying 11 

## it is within the same rubric as that covered product. 12 

## If we want to add coverage given the Hearth product 13 

## case we are in 20. 14 

## MR. BALLO: I don't disagree that we are 15 

## in 20 for the purposes of jumping through the hoops 16 

## to get into the realm of being covered but once you 17 

## are a covered product, why do you need to maintain 18 

## the distinction between compressor and non-compressor 19 

## refrigerators? In other words, you don't necessarily 20 

## stay in 20, you can be merged into 2, the key is 21 

## meeting those thresholds to become a covered product. 22 

## MR. COHEN: Except that 20 is any otherASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## type of product so it couldn't -- if it's an 2 

## other-type of product it couldn't be something that 3 

## has already been listed above, it would have to be 4 

## something different than what was listed above, so 5 

## you know if terminology is the issue it doesn't have 6 

## to be called miscellaneous refrigeration equipment, 7 

## it could be called -- we can call it microphones, we 8 

## can call it whatever we want and then just define it 9 

## to include what are the types of products that we are 10 

## talking about. 11 

## But they would be different from the thing 12 

## that Congress set down already as covered products. 13 

## And that matters for a variety of reasons beyond just 14 

## this conversation but it matters for things like the 15 

## pre-emption provision, because if something is a 16 

## covered product already the pre-emption would apply 17 

## before we add coverage so there is a variety of other 18 

## things that kick in under the statute if it's sort of 19 

## included in that world of Congressionally described 20 

## covered products. 21 

## MR. BALLO: So my understanding is in the 22 

## pumps reg neg the lead time that applies, the 5 yearASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## lead time under 325(L) which I have looked and it 2 

## does apply to pumps via Section 345. The Department 3 

## I understand is moving away from that 5 year lead 4 

## time because there was a consensus among the group 5 

## and I'm wondering if the Department would do 6 

## something similar here if there is a consensus in the 7 

## group to create the new covered product, 8 

## non-compressor refrigerators, essentially identically 9 

## to the way an equal compressor or refrigerators are 10 

## treated under the statute. 11 

## MR. COHEN: Yeah so that's not quite what 12 

## happened in the pumps negotiation. What you are 13 

## referring to, the 5 year lead time is actually 14 

## applicable to products added under 20. If you look 15 

## at 6295(L) it is referring -- it actually currently 16 

## refers back to 19 which is nonsensical because when 17 

## Congress amended the statute and added 19 they forgot 18 

## to change the other provision but put that aside for 19 

## a moment. 20 

## It applies to new products added under 20. 21 

## Pumps are actually already listed by Congress as a 22 

## type of covered equipment. So as a result we weren'tASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## adding coverage, so even though the -- that's why we 2 

## love EPCA's lawyers right? Even though the crosswalk 3 

## provision would put you back into a new covered 4 

## product under the commercial category since pumps was 5 

## already there it wasn't the new covered product under 6 

## the commercial category and so L didn't apply. 7 

## MR. BALLO: But what would be the purpose 8 

## of applying L to the 6311 paragraph 1, electric 9 

## motors and pumps if the 5 year lead time doesn't 10 

## apply? Why would -- 11 

## MR. COHEN: There are other provisions 12 

## actually as well in L in addition to the lead time. 13 

## There are some usage provisions and what not that are 14 

## also there. 15 

## MR. BALLO: So then there is no way for us 16 

## to get at this issue of -- 17 

## MR. COHEN: The 5 year, the lead time 18 

## issue? 19 

## MR. BALLO: Well there is just no way to 20 

## merge the standards so that we can coherently address 21 

## the regulation of these two repeating products. 22 

## MR. COHEN: With other refrigerationASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## products, things that would be refrigerators under 2 

## one? 3 

## MR. BALLO: Yes. 4 

## MR. COHEN: So that's more of a logistical 5 

## thing, administrative, that's more of an 6 

## administrative or logistical thing with the program 7 

## right to just sync up rulemakings to work together. 8 

## I'm not sure that that requires a legal solution. 9 

## MR. BALLO: Well can a compressor be a 10 

## consideration in the engineering analysis to improve 11 

## the efficiency of a non-compressor refrigerator? 12 

## MR. COHEN: Well, no, because by 13 

## definition it would be a different product. But you 14 

## could do the rulemakings together, in parallel. 15 

## MR. BALLO: Ideally we would like the same 16 

## standard to apply though. 17 

## MR. COHEN: Well that's a different 18 

## question than the legal question you are asking now 19 

## right, that's a question you are asking now about 20 

## what the outcome should be of this negotiation and 21 

## that is yet to be determined by everybody in the 22 

## room.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. BALLO: But if the consensus of the 2 

## group was that we would like the same standards to 3 

## apply it seems like you are telling us we can't get 4 

## there. 5 

## MR. COHEN: I don't think that's what I am 6 

## saying. I think what I am saying is you could -- 7 

## that could be the outcome of this group and you would 8 

## have to sync up the rulemakings, that may not happen 9 

## in the first rulemaking, it might take you know 10 

## rulemaking, whatever, down the line but there is no 11 

## reason why you couldn't sync up because of the 6 year 12 

## look back could apply to both for the same time. 13 

## MR. BALLO: But it is not just the syncing 14 

## up of the standards it is actually the level of the 15 

## standard would be the same. 16 

## MR. COHEN: I would just think that's a 17 

## negotiation point really not a legal point. 18 

## MR. BALLO: Okay. 19 

## MS. MAUER: This is Johanna, I think the 20 

## issue is so -- I think we would all maybe be happy to 21 

## agree to applying the same standards to these 22 

## products but I don't know how DOE would feel aboutASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## that, if you are saying you can't. So non-compressor 2 

## products are inherently less efficient than 3 

## compressor-based products so you are saying you can't 4 

## consider a switch to vapor compression technology in 5 

## the analysis would your analysis be able to support 6 

## the working group agreeing to a standard for 7 

## non-compressor refrigerators that's equivalent to the 8



## -- 9 

## MR. COHEN: Again you are talking 10 

## technology that is way beyond my realm. To me that 11 

## is an issue of working through the numbers with the 12 

## analysts and trying to figure out what the answer is 13 

## to that question. I don't know that sitting here now 14 

## right, that's something that has to be discussed and 15 

## worked through. There's no legal answer to that. 16 

## MR. BALLO: But the maximum feasible 17 

## standard level for a non-compressor refrigerator is a 18 

## standard level that essentially would reflect the use 19 

## of a compressor in that machine so you would be 20 

## adopting a standard for non-compressor refrigerators 21 

## that wouldn't say you have to have a compressor but 22 

## realistically how else would you get there.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. COHEN: I don't know the answer to 2 

## that question either but that's -- you know to me it 3 

## sounds like what you are trying to do is trying to 4 

## figure out a way to define a category so as to limit 5 

## the scope of what the answer could be in terms of the 6 

## standard, that doesn't seem like that's a legal issue 7 

## again. That's sort of trying to kind of push the 8 

## negotiating point through a different approach. 9 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Stephen? 10 

## MR. SCHAEFER: I don't know the total 11 

## background of it with ice makers for commercial ice 12 

## makers, we kind of do that in a way where you are not 13 

## saying that it has to be a specific type of 14 

## condensing unit but you have self-contained, you have 15 

## air water, you have ice making heads, air water and 16 

## you have remotes, and you also have remotes with 17 

## compressors and condensers, remotes with compressors 18 

## -- condensers only. 19 

## So maybe that's something that can be done within the 20 

## refrigerator category is to categorize whether it is 21 

## you know, what type of condensing is. 22 

## I don't know the history of exactly howASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## that got started by is there some way we can try to 2 

## dive into this with these residential refrigerators? 3 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Did you have a question for 4 

## us? 5 

## MR. SCHAEFER: Yes I was wondering if that 6 

## -- the way that the commercial ice makers subdivided 7 

## the condensing units, could that be done here where 8 

## we are not just saying well there's a refrigerator -- 9 

## oh but in this other category there's a refrigerator 10 

## without a compressor, we do that with ice makers. We 11 

## put remotes with compressors and condensers on the 12 

## roof. We put you know, different types, whether it 13 

## is self-contained air or water, you know -- about 6 14 

## different categories on the same one. Can we do that 15 

## here or are we held to try to work that out later on? 16 

## MR. COHEN: So you are asking a good 17 

## question about product categories and how you define 18 

## product categories going forward in this negotiation. 19 

## There are different ways that we define product 20 

## categories by capacity, by performance, by different 21 

## utilities that are provided to the user of that 22 

## device. So that's something that could be talkedASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## through but we don't do it by technology. We don't 2 

## set standards or product categories by take a furnace 3 

## for instance, a condensing furnace versus a 4 

## non-condensing furnace. 5 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I am going to open up the 6 

## mic for Jenn and then I will come back to Charlie, so 7 

## Jenn can you hear us? Try unmuting your phone Jenn? 8 

## All right so Jenn just try a minute when you get that 9 

## worked out, Charlie? 10 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. But I 11 

## think that is exactly what we are doing here is going 12 

## to define the category by technology. One technology 13 

## and one category and everything else would be in a 14 

## different category. 15 

## MR. COHEN: So it is a little different 16 

## because the statute actually as opposed to us 17 

## creating it the statute has created a technological 18 

## difference. And then you have, obviously we live 19 

## with that technological difference created in law, 20 

## that's different than this kind. 21 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon, then look here is 22 

## the next question on the technological backgroundASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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### 1 

## searches and all the numbers generated by your 2 

## consultants there's inherently at this time the 3 

## compressor-based products are the most efficient and 4 

## if we run 9 compressor-based product as a category, 5 

## that category has to be only -- all the statistics 6 

## have to be based off of that product information 7 

## correct? 8 

## MR. COHEN: Yes if it is a separate 9 

## product yes. 10 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon again and 11 

## then therefore we would be seeing a very different 12 

## standard because technology is different and this 13 

## time the technology efficiencies favor the part that 14 

## is already in the regulations. 15 

## MR. COHEN: I take your word for that, I 16 

## don't know that. 17 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Jenn, can you guys 18 

## hear me now? 19 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yes go ahead Jenn. 20 

## MS. CLEARY: Okay so going off of what 21 

## Charlie said I mean I guess and Joanna's earlier 22 

## point I just feel like this is sort of negating theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## intent of covering this product and so Dan I 2 

## certainly understand where you are coming from, your 3 

## explanation of DOE's interpretation was very helpful. 4 

## I guess I'm just concerned where that leaves us if 5 

## anywhere. 6 

## MR. COHEN: Again I can't answer that 7 

## question, it seems to me that's the purpose of this 8 

## discussion. We can only tell you how we read the law 9 

## and give you our parameters for you know how that 10 

## affects what you can discuss but then you have to go 11 

## and discuss it. 12 

## MS. CLEARY: Understood, this is Jenn 13 

## Cleary. My comment was sort of directed to the group 14 

## as a whole as well. 15 

## MR. BALLO: I guess -- this is Tim with 16 

## Earthjustice. If the group goes ahead and recommends 17 

## to DOE that the standards for these two products be 18 

## identical, that they be implemented on the same 19 

## schedule the Department's position that you will go 20 

## ahead and propose that you know, absent significant 21 

## adverse comment adopted as a final rule or is the 22 

## Department's position that we cannot do that.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. COHEN: So on this one we do have the 2 

## 5 year lead time, the question may be when we can 3 

## sync up those cycles I guess, those rulemakings. 4 

## MR. BALLO: What if the recommendation of 5 

## the group for the standard was that they shall -- 6 

## that they shall adopt the next refrigerator standard 7 

## on the schedule established in the refrigerator 8 

## rulemaking? 9 

## MR. COHEN: So now you are talking about a 10 

## different scope of negotiation for this body, I'm not 11 

## sure what ASRAC does with that. 12 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Joe, Joe that would be a 13 

## recommendation to the secretary then. 14 

## MR. COHEN: Yeah remember because the 15 

## working group -- it has to go through the parent 16 

## committee first. 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So that would be a 18 

## recommendation to them then. Roland do you have 19 

## something? 20 

## MR. MARCINIAK: Yes I guess my concern is 21 

## what was voiced by Charlie yesterday though is you 22 

## start to head down a complimentary path and as thingsASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## aren't quite synced. You start to also get a public 2 

## opinion that these cooled cabinets or these hybrids 3 

## are the same as refrigerators like you have in hotels 4 

## where you have a different perception that the public 5 

## has of what the product's performance is, if it is 6 

## perishable goods that's a whole different conception 7 

## the public has. 8 

## And I wouldn't like these confused as we 9 

## head down the road as to you know are they being 10 

## tested the same, are they being in the same category 11 

## so I am kind of concerned with the questions brought 12 

## up yesterday about a complimentary path that you are 13 

## calling it now but as it diverses into its own 14 

## structures, its own committee, its own rulemaking 15 

## changes that this starts to take on a little 16 

## different -- a little different emphasis because the 17 

## technology right now can't keep up with the 18 

## compressor-based product, so that would be my 19 

## concern. 20 

## Which again leads back to the question of 21 

## having it in the same category, you have much more 22 

## control, you have the same people that are in thatASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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### 1 

## industry and have been in that industry controlling 2 

## how this is presented, how these terminologies are 3 

## listed and shown you know as these test procedures 4 

## and such are developed so I guess that's the concern 5 

## I have. 6 

## MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen again. 7 

## Understood but we have to live with the statute the 8 

## way we have the statute and so you know in some ways 9 

## those are issues that are -- it's only the extra 10 

## legal right they are not really -- we can't change 11 

## the law to accommodate those, we would have to 12 

## accommodate those within the existing law. 13 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So are there any other 14 

## questions or comments for Dan? 15 

## Okay Joanna? 16 

## MS. MAUER: Dan I was just wondering, I 17 

## didn't understand your comment about preemption 18 

## implications of amending the refrigerator definition 19 

## to be broader. 20 

## MR. COHEN: So the way the statute's 21 

## preemption applies to any covered project as a 22 

## covered product whether there are standards or not.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## So if it is a covered product preemption applies at 2 

## that point right so if it is within that world of 3 

## covered products -- anything on that list in 6292 4 

## preemption applies whether we have standards. 5 

## So for instance televisions are in that 6 

## list, there are no standards for televisions. 7 

## Preemption applies on the televisions. 8 

## MS. MAUER: I guess I'm not following -- 9 

## so either way the Department has to cover these 10 

## additional products? 11 

## MR. COHEN: Right. 12 

## MS. MAUER: After which preemption would 13 

## apply. I'm not following why -- 14 

## MR. COHEN: What they are trying to do is 15 

## Tim's question about could you -- if it's a covered 16 

## product under 1, but you are adding it in instead of 17 

## saying that it is under 1 through a process under 20 18 

## the way I was understanding Tim's description of that 19 

## was since 1 is already a covered product it's a 20 

## covered product and as a result preemption would 21 

## apply. You can't -- it's sort of a circular problem. 22 

## It's in your -- instead of saying it's already aASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## covered product because it is listed in 1, it is part 2 

## of 1 and therefore preemption applies. 3 

## Or were you adding it for 20 so therefore 4 

## it is not part of 1, preemption wouldn't apply until 5 

## we added coverage in that way but you have created an 6 

## ambiguity the way I was understanding Tim's and maybe 7 

## I misunderstood Tim's suggestion but the way I was 8 

## understanding it was you were sort of kind of trying 9 

## to back door something into 1 as having being part of 10 

## 1 because 1 is not a definition of any form. 11 

## MR. BALLO: Well I wasn't saying that it 12 

## had always been part of 1 just that once you 13 

## determine its covered you can make it part of 1 going 14 

## forward so preemption only applies from the time you 15 

## determine it meets the coverage thresholds and is a 16 

## covered product. 17 

## MR. COHEN: Well right so okay, it's a 18 

## better understanding I guess that would be right if 19 

## we could do that, the problem is it is any other 20 

## product in 20. 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So what I am understanding 22 

## is that the request from the Committee to put inASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## non-compressors into the current grouping of 2 

## refrigeration, refrigerated freezers and freezers is 3 

## not possible. And m-- 4 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I think that you know, 5 

## given some discussion yesterday what we know of today 6 

## as non-compressor refrigerators after the discussion 7 

## just become cooled cabinets right because they can't 8 

## maintain the temperatures, right is that -- 9 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I don't 10 

## believe that's -- I think that's not what the 11 

## Committee is looking at. I think that just because 12 

## there may or may not be a product at this time that 13 

## can do that doesn't mean we don't want to cover it as 14 

## part of the project because we are looking at 15 

## non-compressor equipment and if we would do that, 16 

## that would be another hole left in the system which 17 

## would have non-compressor refrigerators exempted from 18 

## coverage and that would leave California and several 19 

## other groups that would be then able to use 20 

## preemption and get around it. 21 

## But the other categories then would be 22 

## preempted by this activity but the minute somebodyASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## came up with a final product that could fit the 2 

## category then they are home, they can do anything 3 

## they want with it because unless some other body 4 

## regulates it, it is not covered under the DOE's 5 

## information. 6 

## MR. COHEN: Well just purely on the legal 7 

## without suggesting an outcome, the Committee could 8 

## suggest to the secretary to cover the product but not 9 

## set standards for it, then preemption would apply in 10 

## that case once coverage was added. 11 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So again I think that the 12 

## answer was given. I understand it's not the answer 13 

## that the Committee was hoping for but at least it 14 

## provides us some guidance for discussion, would 15 

## everyone agree with that? So any other questions, 16 

## Charlie? 17 

## MR. HON: One other question. Under that 18 

## same scenario these cooled cabinets that we are 19 

## discussing now which are not compressor-based 20 

## systems, the analytics then have to go through only 21 

## the product that is covered under that discussion 22 

## correct?ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. COHEN: The cooled cabinets, how are 2 

## you defining the cooled cabinets, whatever, that 3 

## would have to be analyzed. 4 

## MR. HON: As a separate category, we could 5 

## not use the fact that a compressor-based system was 6 

## inherently much more efficient because it is already 7 

## covered under a different portion of the law? 8 

## (MR. HAGERMAN AND MR. COHEN CONFERRING) 9 

## MR. COHEN: Yeah, this is Dan Cohen again. 10 

## Not understanding the definition that you have 11 

## already been discussing, that includes both so you 12 

## would look at both in that category given that you 13 

## have both are in there. 14 

## MR. HON: Right, okay but we would still 15 

## have the hold then for the non-compressor 16 

## refrigerator whatever that category actually ends up 17 

## as a title because -- 18 

## MR. HAGERMAN: As was said before 19 

## non-compressor refrigerators, are there any in the 20 

## market right now? It's hard for us to do the 21 

## analysis on products that don't exist right? It 22 

## doesn't mean -- I'm sorry, it's hard for us to setASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## standards on products that don't exist. It's easy 2 

## for us to find coverage for it right? 3 

## MR. HON: Correct. 4 

## MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Bill? 5 

## MR. BROWN: This is Bill from GE. I mean 6 

## you really don't know whether these products exist or 7 

## not. Your sample size is really low on what you 8 

## tested so there may be products out there that can 9 

## meet this temperature, I don't know about them but 10 

## there could be. 11 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Yes we have an open 12 

## invitation to everybody if you know of products, just 13 

## like if you know any thermal-electric manufacturers 14 

## we need to reach out to to participate please give us 15 

## those names. 16 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah so I am guessing that 17 

## if you folks are not aware of one that it's pretty 18 

## hard for us to have those discussions without you all 19 

## bringing some of that information to the table right? 20 

## Jenn? 21 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, it is hard for 22 

## us to bring this to the table because no one in thisASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## room makes them so I don't think anyone is saying 2 

## that they do or they don't exist, they are just 3 

## saying we don't know, the right people who would know 4 

## aren't here so this is a hard discussion to have 5 

## without the players at the table. 6 

## MR. RAMIREZ: And again we could add any 7 

## members that you all see that might be able to help 8 

## with that, you let us know and we will go through the 9 

## process to make them available if they want to join 10 

## us. 11 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman DOE. At the 12 

## first public meeting I think there were some 13 

## absorption folks on the phone, they did not submit to 14 

## ASRAC their names for the working group, so they are 15 

## aware of the regulations ongoing. 16 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Anything else for Dan then? 17 

## You are welcome to hang around, I know how much you 18 

## probably enjoyed that but if not thank you Dan, okay. 19 

## All right, so with that discussion and clarity what 20 

## do you all want to do with this definition? 21 

## MR. HAGERMAN: And it's all right to say 22 

## that you don't know and you want to regroup as aASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## group for a little while, we are happy to leave the 2 

## room and let you all talk amongst yourselves as 3 

## manufacturers. 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Dick how much time would you 5 

## want for them? All right so the manufacturers being 6 

## the larger group it would make sense to let you use 7 

## the room. I'm sorry you said about 15 or 20 minutes? 8 

## MR. HAGERMAN: We'll just say we will be 9 

## back here at 11 o'clock, that gives you 30 minutes in 10 

## case you want to call people, you can call people. 11 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah so Tim do you want to 12 

## meet with other folks? Yeah, if the other groups 13 

## want to meet we have the room in the back, I think 14 

## it's standing room only, I don't see any chairs back 15 

## there but we could probably get some chairs in there 16 

## if you like them. 17 

## We'll try to figure out to get you some 18 

## chairs back there. So we will all come back at 11 19 

## o'clock, thank you. 20 

## (BREAK) 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so now that everyone is 22 

## back we will go ahead and get started. And I justASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## want to let everyone know that I believe George 2 

## Parsons may have been listening in yesterday. There 3 

## was a family emergency that he was attending to but 4 

## he is on the webinar today so he is still a Committee 5 

## member -- a working group member and we are unmuting 6 

## his mic so that maybe from time to time he will chime 7 

## in with some comment, okay. 8 

## So after a little break I guess I will 9 

## open the floor up for any discussion that the group 10 

## wants to have, but ultimately we are going to have to 11 

## refocus back on the definition and see what you all 12 

## want to do with that. Is there anything that the 13 

## groups want to share from their caucus time? Yeah, 14 

## Tim? 15 

## MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earthjustice. 16 

## While we were talking over the break, Joanna had an 17 

## idea that may be a convenient work around for us for 18 

## the problem that we have been discussing or it may be 19 

## an opportunity to beat two dead horses at the same 20 

## time. 21 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Can I ask just a general 22 

## question. What do we have against dead horses?ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. BALLO: Nothing, just beating them. 2 

## So earlier I mentioned the issue of the non-integral 3 

## compressor refrigerators. If one were to define a 4 

## non-compressor refrigerator as a non-integral 5 

## compressor refrigerator the non-integrated compressor 6 

## would then become a technology option to improve the 7 

## performance of thermal-electric and absorption 8 

## products, potentially getting them up to a standard 9 

## level that is roughly equivalent to vapor 10 

## compression, traditional refrigerators. 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Say it again? 12 

## MR. BALLO: If the non-compressor 13 

## refrigerator is really only a non-integrated 14 

## compressor refrigerator, which is consistent with how 15 

## EPCA defines vapor -- the traditional vapor 16 

## compression refrigerator then when you are trying to 17 

## find the right standard for a non-integrated 18 

## compressor refrigerator you can consider the 19 

## technology option of a you know, remotely located 20 

## separate cabinet for the compressor. 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I normally like creativity 22 

## right, that helps to spark ideas.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## What does the group think of that? You know I guess 2 

## maybe another question I have for you then is then 3 

## what does that do with what we were discussing? Does 4 

## that put that into that section 20 of -- 5 

## MR. BALLO: No because EPCA is very 6 

## specific it applies to integrated compressor 7 

## refrigerators and these would be non-integrated 8 

## compressor refrigerators so I think it's wholly 9 

## consistent with 322. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just going to ask some 11 

## questions. Do you mean integrated from the point of 12 

## manufacturer? I guess not in the physical box, so in 13 

## other words if something has a 3:26 from the point 14 

## of manufacture, compressor that is like sitting on 15 

## this little shelf next to their refrigerator, they 16 

## are on the market -- you would want that to go in a 17 

## different bucket? Essentially you are saying remotes 18 

## for residential applications -- for consumer 19 

## applications, that's how I -- remote compressors. 20 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna, I guess it 21 

## maybe this is a question right -- because there is a 22 

## product on the market with something above theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## cabinet is that covered by the current standards? 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I am going to decline to 3 

## answer that one. It's yeah -- on the record let's 4 

## put it that way. I would say that that's something 5 

## the Department is working on. Another idea to think 6 

## about I think might be what if you just treat all 7 

## non-integral compressor based systems as cooled 8 

## cabinets? Just period -- irrespective of their 9 

## temperatures, so if it is not a refrigerator, it is a 10 

## cooled cabinet, that would get you your same -- I 11 

## think that would get you your same answer. 12 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I guess if you relooked at 13 

## 6292 it doesn't say anything about integral 14 

## compressors, it says compressor and condenser unit as 15 

## an integral part of the cabinet. 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah so they are making 17 

## reference to a specific product that has the 18 

## compressor in a separate box on top of their 19 

## refrigerator cabinet and they are saying well DOE 20 

## what is your interpretation of whether that specific 21 

## product meets the definition of the refrigerator. 22 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MS. ARMSTRONG: And if it doesn't would 2 

## you consider that in this other bucket such that 3 

## compressor based systems like this would be a 4 

## technology option for vapor compression did I get it 5 

## right? 6 

## MR. HAGERMAN: It depends on what your 7 

## definition of integral part meant. Ultimately it 8 

## depends on what the definition of "is" is right? 9 

## MR. BALLO: Well I don't think we know the 10 

## answer so that's why I'm asking. 11 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Why do we need to know the 12 

## answer to that today for the larger MREF rule? Is 13 

## that a threshold, I don't think that's a threshold 14 

## for the rest of the rule is it? 15 

## MR. BALLO: No it's just a way to address 16 

## the issue of products that may meet the temperature 17 

## requirements to be a refrigerator but that don't have 18 

## a compressor and aren't included in the current 19 

## definition. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: But isn't the fundamental, 21 

## the more fundamental thing that you guys see that you 22 

## want DOE's definitions and product classes to beASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## technology neutral so that you want products with the 2 

## same functionality and/or utility to the consumer to 3 

## be treated in the same product class irrespective of 4 

## refrigeration technology and as long as you find a 5 

## way to do that don't you think that would pretty much 6 

## work? 7 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I guess maybe 8 

## I'd get back to Dick's earlier comment about perhaps 9 

## we can come up with some creative way to kind of 10 

## address the market today to get the outcome that we 11 

## are looking for. Dick mentioned magnetic 12 

## refrigeration that you know, that may be a real 13 

## refrigerator is not cooled cabinets you know, it 14 

## seems like that technology should be considered a 15 

## refrigerator not a cooled cabinet. 16 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Is there a possibility that 17 

## we could like I don't want to suggest this in a 18 

## negative way but kind of park that and see what other 19 

## people have been talking about since the break? I 20 

## don't want to lose what you are talking about just 21 

## let it bake a little bit. 22 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So what does that do for theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## definition? Would that impact the definition? Let's 2 

## look at the definition now and what do we have to do 3 

## to -- well based on the discussion that we have had 4 

## so far does this definition work and if not what do 5 

## we need to do to modify it to make it work, Jenn? 6 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary I think based on 7 

## Dan's discussion maybe we have no choice but to 8 

## accept this definition so I think based on the 9 

## information we got from Dan it sounds like this isn't 10 

## really something we can negotiate. I think we have 11 

## to accept number 2. 12 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Could you speak a little 13 

## louder, let me see a show of thumbs if everyone is 14 

## okay with this definition for the refrigerator? 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: How about one caveat we 16 

## haven't discussed number 3 yet and I think 3 needs to 17 

## be discussed a little. I don't think DOE is ready to 18 

## agree with number 3. 19 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Right and Charlie agrees. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 21 

## MR. HAGERMAN: But I think Charlie 22 

## understands, I think everybody here understands theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## intent of what 3 is trying to get at, the exclusion 2 

## of commercial units right? 3 

## MS. CLEARY: So are we right now just 4 

## talking about what is in red or are we talking about 5 

## only number 2? 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: All the way up to 2, 7 

## through 2. 8 

## MS. CLEARY: Well except that we still 9 

## need to talk about 1, the hybrid portion of that so 10 

## that's why I was saying maybe what's in red. 11 

## MR. RAMIREZ: What is the hybrid portion 12 

## of that? 13 

## MS. CLEARY: The last sentence after 90 14 

## degree F ambient appears a second time a refrigerator 15 

## also may include one or more seller compartments, 16 

## blah, blah, blah. 17 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Would it help if he bolded 18 

## this out real quick, all the sentence in bullets and 19 

## then we can go through each bullet? It's a 20 

## mechanical thing. 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So after that second -- all 22 

## right so looking at the first bullet is there anyASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## question on that first bullet? Let me see a show of 2 

## thumbs if everyone is okay with that first bullet? 3 

## (Panel holding up thumbs). 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay and I'm sorry, George 5 

## are you online? 6 

## MR. PARSONS: Yeah I'm online. 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Does that first bullet look 8 

## okay to you? 9 

## MR. PARSONS: That is fine. 10 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay then let's look at the 11 

## second bullet. Any questions on the second bullet? 12 

## Let's see a show of thumbs if you are okay with the 13 

## second bullet. 14 

## (No thumbs down) 15 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I don't see any thumbs down 16 

## so we are good on the second bullet. Now on the 17 

## third bullet, yeah I'm sorry hey George, if you 18 

## object to anything just go ahead and speak up as I 19 

## ask to see the thumbs okay. 20 

## MR. PARSONS: I will do that. 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay thanks. So the third 22 

## bullet -- I'm asking for discussion first then a voteASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## because I think this was the part that Jenn was 2 

## saying that we might need some discussion. 3 

## MS. CLEARY: Yeah I think this is a 4 

## separate issue so we might just want to table this 5 

## bullet unless we are trying to vote on everything 6 

## that is on this slide if that is the case then I 7 

## think we need to discuss that. 8 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Let's see what the issue is 9 

## with it, so if you wouldn't mind can you tell us what 10 

## the concern is on that bullet? 11 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, I don't mind but 12 

## I think it's a -- 13 

## MR. RAMIREZ: A monster? 14 

## MS. CLEARY: Maybe it's like a whole 15 

## separate type issue so I would worry that we would 16 

## get side-tracked from what we are trying to finalize 17 

## now, if the group wants me to I'm happy to. 18 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Let's table it, let's come 19 

## back, you convinced me okay. 20 

## So then the however section number 1 let's see a show 21 

## of thumbs if we are okay with number 1? 22 

## (Panel showing thumbs up)ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay number 2, any 2 

## discussion or questions on number 2? Then let's see 3 

## a show of thumbs if you are okay with number 2. 4 

## (Panel showing thumbs up) 5 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah and I see a lot of 6 

## sideway thumbs and I'm taking it right, because I 7 

## think we have had a lot of discussion on that one and 8 

## I think everyone understands why they are like that. 9 

## MR. MOUW: If I can -- this is Nate from 10 

## Whirlpool, I think number 2 is what we are sort of 11 

## voting on independently but it is somewhat dependent 12 

## on what we think about non-compressor refrigerators 13 

## as well so that is all one discussion I think that's 14 

## why my thumb was sideways because voting on this 15 

## independent of a discussion about non-compressor 16 

## refrigerators is sort of only discussing half of a 17 

## bigger issue. 18 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yep, thank you. Number 3, 19 

## what was the concern with number 3 okay Charlie? 20 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing. 21 

## There's -- one of the standards ANSI/NSF 7-2009 is a 22 

## standard which is not exclusive to commercialASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## refrigerators, it could be applied into this category 2 

## and at that time it would take a unit which should be 3 

## regulated under all the other categories and if you 4 

## are willing to pay an extra few thousand dollars to 5 

## get it certified under ANSI Standard 7 which could be 6 

## nothing more than construction characteristics 7 

## clean-ability -- you could then circumvent and have 8 

## your product exempted from the energy consumption 9 

## standards. 10 

## MR. RAMIREZ: And is this something that 11 

## this group is charged to deal with? 12 

## MR. HON: I think this group is charged to 13 

## deal with making sure that every product which should 14 

## be regulated is covered under the same context and if 15 

## you are willing to spend a few dollars one-time 16 

## expense, you may be able to exempt yourself from the 17 

## category. 18 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right then what do we 19 

## need to do with this then? 20 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon again. I 21 

## think we need to really consider and we can do it one 22 

## of several ways -- number one is how is the productASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## marketed because NSF 7 is traditionally used in 2 

## commercial food storage applications because it 3 

## contains a lot of different pieces of information, 4 

## clean-ability, temperature ranges, lots of other 5 

## things in there but because of that if you fall under 6 

## the energy standards for commercial refrigerators 7 

## then you have a much more lenient power consumption 8 

## allowance and if you are intending to market to the 9 

## home, by this exemption it takes it away from the 10 

## possibility, it changes the status in a lot of ways. 11 

## It doesn't necessarily preclude it from 12 

## the Federal Trade Commission's intervention if they 13 

## wish to consider it as part of the home refrigerator 14 

## market but it takes it away from the Department of 15 

## Energy's jurisdiction under their residential 16 

## category. 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So you want to make it 18 

## specific that this is for commercial? 19 

## MR. HON: Yes. 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: And how could we -- how 21 

## could we modify this so that that is clear? And I'm 22 

## throwing this out to all the brains in the room,ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## right -- how do we do this, Mary? 2 

## MS. DANE: I would suggest changing or to 3 

## and, this is Mary from Traulsen. 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I love simple fixes. 5 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So now you have to pay 20 6 

## thousand dollars. 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Is that a simple fix, 8 

## Charlie? 9 

## MR. HON: That does a couple of things. 10 

## Number one is UL does have a standard 250 which is 11 

## residential refrigeration and as such they would not, 12 

## if this was in the 250 category they would register 13 

## it under 250, they wouldn't register it under 471. 14 

## MR. MARCINIAK: Dual listings though just 15 

## 250 and 471. 16 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So now you are 30 thousand 17 

## dollars. 18 

## MR. HON: Because UL 471 does cover 19 

## outside equipment and 250 does not. It's a big issue 20 

## right now because it is very specific in the wording 21 

## of the standard and that's why we are trying to clean 22 

## this mess up because under 250 there's no outsideASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## application but they allow listing under 471 for 2 

## residential which is applied under the outside 3 

## category because of certain special testing that has 4 

## to be done to verify that it is electrically safe in 5 

## a condition where there could be rain involved. 6 

## So it can be done and that is one of the 7 

## danger factors of this particular -- both of those 8 

## clauses, it is still going to cost you a whole lot of 9 

## money if you do them both but you can still 10 

## circumvent the intent of the regulation. 11 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So do we need to add a third 12 

## bullet in there? 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Could I ask a question 14 

## real quick just because if we have and there does 15 

## this mean then that outdoor fridges are commercial? 16 

## Or would this mean that outdoor fridges are 17 

## residential or consumer products -- and then I'll 18 

## tell you what DOE's opinion is. 19 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. Talking to 20 

## UL about this very topic a few weeks ago, UL does not 21 

## separate because of the clauses -- the add-on clauses 22 

## in 250 for outdoor units they would be tested underASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## 471. They are really not classifying it as a 2 

## commercial piece of equipment they are just testing 3 

## because the UL 250 does not have the special test 4 

## requirements built into it. 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I interpret that as 6 

## saying you essentially would move outdoor -- 7 

## otherwise outdoor consumer product fridges to 8 

## commercial equipment with the way the definition is 9 

## structured now. 10 

## MR. HON: That is what I am afraid it is 11 

## saying yes and that's why -- 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And I don't think that was 13 

## DOE's intent. 14 

## MR. HON: Well there's a lot of questions 15 

## there because and/or no matter what happens you are 16 

## still getting results where you could circumvent by 17 

## moving into commercial one way or another. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 19 

## MR. HON: You may take more steps but it 20 

## still could be done. 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And perhaps there's a 22 

## better way to do this and it does not involve theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## standards or it involves the culmination of the 2 

## standards and a 3 and 4 perhaps. I think what DOE -- 3 

## if you look at the definition of commercial 4 

## refrigeration equipment and the statute the first 5 

## thing is it is not a consumer product so you have to 6 

## go to the consumer product section first and if it 7 

## otherwise meets the definition of the refrigerator it 8 

## is in the consumer product section. 9 

## It falls in that category and I think we 10 

## believe that there are a good number of products out 11 

## there that are marketed for I would say commercial 12 

## applications that would actually meet the consumer 13 

## product definition of a refrigerator, and that's what 14 

## this is trying to clear up. How do you make that 15 

## distinction between consumer and commercial and while 16 

## we propose something we did get a lot of comments 17 

## that made us pause and rethink how we approach that 18 

## so obviously we are open to ideas but I think we 19 

## believe you fall into the consumer section first and 20 

## it's only if you don't meet a couple of these things 21 

## that you would then perhaps go to commercial 22 

## equipment, it is not just being marketed forASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## commercial applications that get to there. I really 2 

## got progress -- 3 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, I have a 4 

## question because I don't know the answer. 5 

## MR. RAMIREZ: It's okay to pause to think. 6 

## MR. HON: Because certain -- are all 7 

## commercial, excuse me all residential refrigeration 8 

## products covered under the Consumer Product Safety 9 

## Commission and the FTC. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So FTC is going to be 11 

## based on our scope of coverage so FTC's labeling 12 

## disclosures are going to be based on the coverage on 13 

## the regulatory definitions as established by DOE. So 14 

## they are going to go hand in hand so you probably 15 

## could use that as the distinguishing factor. I don't 16 

## know the answer to the CPSC question though but I 17 

## don't know how like outdoor refrigerators as one 18 

## major I would say category that there are a lot of 19 

## questions around and there's a couple of other things 20 

## though. 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn? 22 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, I can't answerASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## for CPSC obviously but yes the residential 2 

## refrigerators are consumer products and therefore are 3 

## covered by the Consumer Product Safety Commission, I 4 

## just don't know where CPSC would say that scope and 5 

## it's not like they have a definition for covered 6 

## refrigerators, you know they just cover all consumer 7 

## products so I don't think that would help us out 8 

## here. 9 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so the "and" doesn't 10 

## quite cut it, now does it help and do we still need 11 

## to add something? 12 

## MR. HON: Could we add another sentence to 13 

## that? 14 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Would it be a separate 15 

## bullet, number 3? 16 

## MR. HON: Bullet number 3, this is Charlie 17 

## Hon, which says in the unit -- let's see, the 18 

## category doesn't fit there. It doesn't fit under 19 

## certified under -- see what I am saying? It would 20 

## have to be its own separate stand-alone. 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Number 4? 22 

## MR. HON: Yes, which would say -- let'sASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## see, the term does not include any product that is 2 

## marketed as a commercial refrigeration product. 3 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Let's throw it up there and 4 

## see how we make it work, all right. 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean that's the same 6 

## marketing get around intent and so I think that's the 7 

## issue that we have now, that people market for 8 

## commercial applications and residential applications 9 

## but that marketing doesn't get them out of meeting 10 

## the definition of refrigerator in our regulatory and 11 

## thus being considered a consumer product. 12 

## MR. RAMIREZ: What about "used as"? 13 

## MR. BROWN: Well maybe -- this is Bill 14 

## from GE, maybe you can attack it the other way, what 15 

## makes the product a commercial product? 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not a consumer 17 

## product. You see how we got here? 18 

## MR. BROWN: Well help me with this, then 19 

## how do I become a commercial product? 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: You are not a consumer 21 

## product. 22 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Then what's a consumerASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## product. 2 

## MR. BROWN: It sounds like a consumer 3 

## product is everything. 4 

## MR. MARCINIAK: There is a difference 5 

## between the residential and commercial, not just the 6 

## testing the rain testing, I know there's a different 7 

## cord connection that's needed so there is a technical 8 

## difference between a residential and a commercial 9 

## product, not to say that others don't market it as 10 

## residential even though it has a commercial type 11 

## connector because they do but there is a distinction 12 

## between commercial and residential from a technical 13 

## perspective. 14 

## MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler from 15 

## DOE. Consumer product is also defined under EPCA so 16 

## I don't know if that brings a lot of explanation to 17 

## what it is but it is something that is -- something 18 

## distributed in commerce for personal use. That's the 19 

## short version but it is a defined term that's 20 

## helpful. 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think this one is 22 

## key to impeding progress of this rulemaking isASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## something you know that people can think about and 2 

## something that I think DOE was trying to clarify with 3 

## regards to cleaning up the refrigerator definition as 4 

## a whole. It doesn't impact progress pulling forward 5 

## with you know cooled cabinets and the larger MREF I 6 

## think rule as a whole, it's really going to be 7 

## whether something falls into the refrigerator bucket 8 

## or ultimately falls into the CRE bucket, not 9 

## necessarily impacting MREF negotiations moving 10 

## forward. 11 

## So if people want to think about this we 12 

## would love your ideas and opinions but obviously 13 

## don't want to impede progress here, that's all. 14 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie? 15 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Basically 16 

## it sounds like this is a problem that DOE is facing 17 

## in multi-levels of activity so we may be able to give 18 

## advice in the future on how to help fix it but it 19 

## sounds like DOE is striving to fix this problem 20 

## themselves the same way as we are trying to 21 

## understand how to fix it and they don't have an 22 

## answer at this moment either.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay then yes, so let's put 2 

## a strike through number 4 and let's replace the "and" 3 

## and the "or" just so that way it goes back to the 4 

## original, Jenn? 5 

## MS. CLEARY: I would suggest that since 6 

## this isn't integral to what this group was defined to 7 

## tackle which is the MREF negotiation that this would 8 

## be something that would better be addressed through 9 

## the rulemaking process that's already ongoing, DOE 10 

## has already received comments on this and you know 11 

## commenters have the ability to provide input. 12 

## I would imagine DOE would take and put 13 

## after the fact as well so I guess I would move that 14 

## we don't discuss this issue further in this group. 15 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay then what about going 16 

## back to the last bullet, the bullet right above the 17 

## however, is that something that we need to discuss 18 

## now in order for it to move forward or is that 19 

## something that is well we are better off just leaving 20 

## alone for now and moving forward with what we have? 21 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, I think we need 22 

## to discuss it during this negotiation process,ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## whether that happens now or later I mean it may flow 2 

## logically as we move on to discuss hybrid products, I 3 

## think that is what this issue is about and how those 4 

## products should be defined and so like I said whether 5 

## we talk about it now or later it doesn't really 6 

## matter to me, I don't know what others think. 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Any other feedback on that? 8 

## Then let me -- I'm sorry go ahead Chris. 9 

## MR. KUCH: Chris Kuch from Edison, just 10 

## one minor detail, if we stick with "and" then one or 11 

## more should be striked out. 12 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah right now we put it 13 

## back, are you talking about between 1 and 2 there? 14 

## MR. KUCH: Yeah, the beginning of 15 

## statement 3 it's just a minor detail. 16 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Oh I see. 17 

## MR. KUCH: It's just that this is 18 

## certified under one or more, I think that should be 19 

## down one yeah -- if we stick with the word "and". 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay yes so we are going to 21 

## -- we'll leave that alone for now since we put it 22 

## back to the "or" just to put it back in place. ItASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## sounds like we are going to end up leaving that one 2 

## alone right? 3 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Could you just recap where 4 

## we are on this? 5 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. 6 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Go ahead. 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So we have the modifications 8 

## on the first two bullets which everyone is okay with. 9 

## And we are also okay with the modification on number 10 

## well, number 2 right, everything else is the original 11 

## verbage. So I think what would be beneficial is to 12 

## take a temperature vote just to see if what we have 13 

## so far if that is okay, we understand that we will 14 

## probably have to revisit this to hit that third 15 

## bullet, is that clear? Everything that we have 16 

## approved up here with the understanding that this 17 

## part would have to be revisited -- and I am going to 18 

## try to darken those first two bullets out, the first 19 

## two, just darken them so they can see them in the 20 

## back I'm guessing they can't see them in the back. 21 

## So as it -- Charlie? 22 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, I wouldASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## also like to say that I would like to see in our 2 

## transcript to note the fact that item number 3 would 3 

## be being addressed by DOE to clarify and verify the 4 

## products are being classified as they should be 5 

## classified one way or the other. 6 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Are you talking about the 7 

## third bullet there? 8 

## MR. HON: Yes. 9 

## MS. CLEARY: I thought I understood 10 

## Charlie to mean the actual number 3 the commercial, 11 

## residential issue and that we would be not including 12 

## that in the scope of our negotiation but rather in 13 

## the scope of the rulemaking that DOE would consider 14 

## if I understood what you are saying. 15 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Could you just propose what 16 

## that should say that maybe you should say is 17 

## certified or addressed by DOE so as it is not in 18 

## conflict with commercial standards or something like 19 

## that? 20 

## MS. CLEARLY: You can probably leave the 21 

## language and just say to be further revised by DOE 22 

## pending in the rulemaking. Just note that it is outASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## of the scope of the term sheet, to the extent it is 2 

## part of the sheet. 3 

## MR. HAGERMAN: That I can deal with yes. 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Revised by DOE is that fine? 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah that's fine. So can 6 

## I answer one more thing before I leave to get back to 7 

## Joanna's question earlier about what did we do with 8 

## the one I declined to answer earlier, what did we do 9 

## with this compressor thing that wasn't integral to 10 

## the cabinetry? We said it was not a covered product 11 

## so your solution would work if you add coverage for 12 

## non-integral based compressor refrigerator this way. 13 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So then as a temperature 14 

## vote are we okay with what is up here so far, again 15 

## we are not being locked in because we have to revisit 16 

## that third bullet. Let's see a show of thumbs. 17 

## (Panel showing thumb vote). 18 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so let's go on to the 19 

## next definition then. So take a moment and look at 20 

## this and then we'll see what discussion you want to 21 

## have on this one. 22 

## (Panel reviewing slide on screen)ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay Dick? 2 

## MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. I 3 

## think given -- based on our discussion I think we are 4 

## going to see definition of the cooled cabinet being 5 

## quite different than the non-compressor refrigerator 6 

## so I would just suggest that we put on perhaps 7 

## different pages. 8 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Could you -- a 9 

## non-compressor. 10 

## (Conferring) 11 

## Okay so then looking at cooled cabinet, 12 

## what questions or comments, Roland? 13 

## MR. MARCINIAK: (Off mic) Sorry, Roland 14 

## from U-Line. It looks like you are saying that it 15 

## includes TENV cold but there is the possibility of 16 

## having others, it just seems a little ambiguous to 17 

## say would include but doesn't exclude others, I would 18 

## find it better if you either took that out or said 19 

## would include all types of cooled. 20 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I don't think you need that 21 

## text whatsoever. 22 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay Joanna?ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MS. CLEARY: I have a question perhaps for 2 

## Troy which is when you were testing the 3 

## non-compressor refrigerators, could you say anything 4 

## about the range of temperatures -- cabinet 5 

## temperatures, that you observed when you were testing 6 

## it at 90 degree ambient or what temperatures were 7 

## they capable of maintaining at 90 degrees? 8 

## MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson from 9 

## Navigant. So none of the non-compressor 10 

## refrigerators we tested were able to maintain 11 

## refrigerator compartment temperatures in the 90 12 

## degree ambient and let me see if I can pull up that 13 

## data real quick. 14 

## Refrigerators right? 15 

## MS. CLEARY: Right so yeah I understand 16 

## that they weren't able to maintain a temperature 17 

## lower than 39 I'm curious what temperature they were 18 

## able to maintain? 19 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Giving Troy a minute -- 20 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Joanna, my question 21 

## is so we have talked about how kind of using this 22 

## definition of capable of maintaining some temperatureASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## at 90 degrees I think I'm just trying to make sure 2 

## that everything is going to fall on to either the 3 

## kind of refrigerator bucket or cooled cabinet bucket 4 

## and not somehow fall outside. 5 

## MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson from 6 

## Navigant. You were asking for compartment 7 

## temperatures when tested at the 90 degree ambient? 8 

## Okay, yeah so we had a sample of 8 units for the 9 

## preliminary analysis and the coolest compartment 10 

## temperature we saw was 42.8 degrees and it ranged all 11 

## the way up to 61.1 degrees. 12 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon, what type of 13 

## refrigeration system did the coldest ones have? 14 

## MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. 15 

## The coldest was a thermal-electric unit and it was a 16 

## 1.7 cubic foot cabinet. 17 

## MR. MARCINIAK: Roland Marciniak, did you 18 

## have anything? 19 

## MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Dick, did you have 20 

## anything you wanted to share? 21 

## MR. TOPPINGS: I was just asking for 22 

## clarification from Troy to make sure those were --ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: We need your mic 2 

## sorry, thank you. 3 

## MR. TOPPINGS: Dick Toppings Sub-Zero, I 4 

## was asking Troy whether those products he mentioned 5 

## were marketed as refrigerators and not as wine 6 

## coolers or cellars. 7 

## MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: His answer was -- 8 

## MR. TOPPINGS: I think it was yes. 9 

## MR. WATSON: Yes, I believe so. I would 10 

## have to go back to look at specific products to be 11 

## sure. 12 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so then looking at this 13 

## definition for cooled cabinet, what do we need to do 14 

## in order to make this work, Nathan? 15 

## MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool 16 

## just bringing up a separate issue other than 17 

## temperatures. What is says is it means a cabinet 18 

## that is a source of refrigeration requiring 19 

## electrical energy input only. I don't know that that 20 

## is clear enough. A lot of these products and I am 21 

## just looking at a few of them now, a lot of them are 22 

## supplied with words that can be plugged into a car, aASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## 12 volt DC power as well as a cord that plugs into AC 2 

## power so I guess the way it reads now if a company 3 

## sells a product with only a DC power cord that would 4 

## still be covered because it doesn't say alternating 5 

## current only, it says electrical energy input only. 6 

## So I just think we need to have some 7 

## discussion on how we want to treat the electrical 8 

## aspect of this definition. 9 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Is this intended to try to 10 

## capture those auto plug-in type refrigerators? 11 

## MR. MOUW: So this is Nate, I can't answer 12 

## that but I think whatever we do the definition needs 13 

## to be very clear. I mean a lot of those products 14 

## again are supplied with plugs that you could plug 15 

## into the wall of your home as well. They can be 16 

## powered in one of two ways. 17 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So just real quick, I think 18 

## in 6292 the coverage -- it says the following 19 

## consumer products which would fall into a category in 20 

## Section 20 exclude those consumer products designed 21 

## solely for use in recreational vehicles and other 22 

## mobile equipment.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. MOUW: So this is Nate so then it 2 

## seems like the definition does not capture that 3 

## entirely. 4 

## MR. HAGERMAN: This definition would be 5 

## subject to it. I mean if you would like to we can 6 

## copy that to this definition if it would make you 7 

## feel more comfortable but it would be redundant. 8 

## MR. MOUW: I don't think -- this is Nate, 9 

## I don't think this definition captures what you just 10 

## read. This definition can very well be interpreted 11 

## to mean DC input as well which I don't think is the 12 

## intent. 13 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Which would then loop those 14 

## in? 15 

## MR. MOUW: Yes, somehow we need to loop in 16 

## Joe what you just said into this definition. 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so could you read 18 

## that so we could get it. 19 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I will bring it up to you. 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Better, thank you. So we 21 

## will give Ted a moment to add that and see how it 22 

## looks. Okay Roland do you have a comment on that?ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. MARCINIAK: Well I was wondering if we 2 

## were still determining the 72 degrees or if that was 3 

## determined now to be 90 degrees, I think yesterday we 4 

## talked a great deal about 90 degrees? 5 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah from what I am seeing 6 

## up here they are both up there for you all to make a 7 

## decision on that. 8 

## MR. MARCINIAK: Okay. 9 

## MR. RAMIREZ: We just haven't gotten there 10 

## quite yet. So just excluding the issue of the 90 or 11 

## 72, I'm sorry could you darken up what you just added 12 

## because I think it's probably hard for them to see it 13 

## in the back, make it dark a little. 14 

## Okay so the additional language and 15 

## excluding the 90 or 72 for right now how does that 16 

## verbage look? Let me get Bill first and then Nathan 17 

## and then Tim. 18 

## MR. BROWN: Okay this is Bill Brown from 19 

## GE. Yeah I just have a question regarding say a 20 

## portable product that is not a car, or an RV, one 21 

## that you can carry around that works off of battery 22 

## power, would that be covered and it sounds like itASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## would if I'm just reading exactly the words that are 2 

## written up here. 3 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Nathan and Tim. 4 

## MR. MOUW: Yeah if I could add to what 5 

## Bill said I mean I think what we did is we captured 6 

## from 60 to 90, Joe is that right? So I think -- let 7 

## me ask a question I think the intent of that 8 

## statement -- I interpret that to mean a product that 9 

## has a let's say permanently connected power cord that 10 

## can only be used off of DC power. The word solely 11 

## tells me that if a manufacturer sells a product with 12 

## two detachable cords that product is not designed 13 

## solely for use in a mobile basis, whether it be 14 

## portable, or for use in our vehicle. 15 

## So it seems like we could drill down one 16 

## level and then say as a revised proposal requiring 17 

## electrical energy, excluding those products with the 18 

## permanently connected cord for use with direct 19 

## current, something like that. I mean what we are 20 

## trying to exclude are those products that have a 21 

## permanently connected power cord that can only be 22 

## used with DC power.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. RAMIREZ: Nathan could you repeat 2 

## that, let's capture it up there so we can see what it 3 

## really looks like. 4 

## MR. MOUW: I can try. 5 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. 6 

## MR. MOUW: So the source of refrigeration 7 

## requiring electrical energy I think you still need 8 

## the word "only" to exclude those products so the next 9 

## word would be "electrical energy only, excluding 10 

## consumer products with a permanently connected power 11 

## cord utilizing direct current", something like that. 12 

## Let's start with that "for use with -- sorry, power 13 

## cord for use with direct current". 14 

## MR. STERN: So that would exclude dual 15 

## forces? 16 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Why don't you just put that 17 

## up there. 18 

## MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool, 19 

## the question was does this exclude dual source? I 20 

## interpret that to mean a product that has two cords, 21 

## one for AC power, one for DC power, those would be 22 

## included as a covered product, not excluded with thatASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## exclusion -- because that's a permanently connected 2 

## DC power cord would be the exclusion -- a product 3 

## that is supplied with two power cords to these 4 

## products would be included. They are all over the 5 

## place, yes. 6 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Where are they sold to, I 7 

## mean -- 8 

## MR. MOUW: Walmart, anywhere. 9 

## MR. HAGERMAN: But things that you plus 10 

## into your car? 11 

## MR. MOUW: Yeah. 12 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So prior to that language 13 

## being added up there, I know that Tim wanted to speak 14 

## I don't know if that changes and then Charlie after 15 

## that. 16 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Well hold on, don't you 17 

## consider that to be mobile equipment? 18 

## MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool, 19 

## I'm just reacting to the text that you read which 20 

## says designed "solely for use in mobile equipment", a 21 

## product that also comes with an AC power cord is not 22 

## solely for use with mobile equipment, it can also beASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## plugged into the outlet in my kitchen. So it is 2 

## designed for use in mobile equipment as well as 3 

## designed for use in my home. 4 

## MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earthjustice. 5 

## I guess my concern is making this more explicit we 6 

## sort of highlight the opportunities to evade. If I 7 

## am a manufacturer and I package an adapter with it 8 

## that would enable me to use that one cord that is 9 

## intended for DC power to adapt it to an AC main plug 10 

## it is like I avoid the cooled cabinet definition. 11 

## MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool, 12 

## that's why I guess the suggestion is to use the 13 

## phrase of "permanently connected", permanently 14 

## connected meaning the product could not without 15 

## significant -- significant modification ever be used 16 

## with AC power. 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie? 18 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, and there 19 

## is another product unfortunately, I happen to own one 20 

## of them, it basically has a permanently connected DC 21 

## power cord but it came in the same box with an AC 22 

## adapter. So you plug that into the wall, you plugASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## the other one into the DC converter and it ran just 2 

## fine. 3 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn? 4 

## MS. CLEARY: Could you put the definition 5 

## of refrigerator back on and I'm not proposing that we 6 

## go back to discuss that but I -- just thought we 7 

## could just copy that and I thought that was the same 8 

## intent that requires single-phase alternating 9 

## current, electric energy input only. 10 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So what -- 11 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna, Nate could you 12 

## just explain the reason why we would want to exclude 13 

## DC powered products? 14 

## MR. MOUW: This is Nate. DC powered 15 

## products are plugged into vehicles with batteries and 16 

## that is just based on the text that Joe read which is 17 

## you know they have the authority to establish 18 

## coverage for those products for use, not for use -- 19 

## designed not solely for use and then mobile 20 

## applications which essentially means DC power. These 21 

## are products that are plugged into vehicles and you 22 

## know running off of my battery, the alternator of myASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## battery as I drive down the road, these are not 2 

## plugged into the grid. 3 

## MR. HAGERMAN: One of the problems with 4 

## just thinking through this -- one of the problems it 5 

## says require single-phase alternating current only is 6 

## these thermal electric units don't operate off of AC 7 

## current, they are all DC right so they have some type 8 

## of inverter in there and ultimately they use DC to 9 

## operate the unit right. 10 

## So I mean only there a little bit of 11 

## confusion. 12 

## MS. CLEARY: Yes so maybe that wasn't the 13 

## best way to get at this, I was just trying to see if 14 

## it worked, this is Jenn Cleary. 15 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So that is the reason that 16 

## you were trying to put the directly wired to DC in 17 

## there. 18 

## MR. MOUW: This is Nate and I certainly 19 

## understand Charlie's concern where some of these 20 

## products may also have an adapter, a loose adapter 21 

## that is thrown in the box as well. I guess I would 22 

## question whether that product is designed and soldASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## for use in mobile applications only. Perhaps there 2 

## is a slight modification we can make to this that 3 

## would take into account Charlie's concern as well. 4 

## MR. HAGERMAN: That's a good point I mean 5 

## if there's a residential adapter in the box when you 6 

## buy it, that probably inherently means it was not 7 

## designed to solely be used in mobile applications 8 

## right? That probably would be our interpretation in 9 

## terms of enforcement. 10 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So I know there are some 11 

## other ones out, but I don't know -- did you want to 12 

## speak Dick? 13 

## MR. TOPPING: Just to Jenn's point, I mean 14 

## I think all the other -- Dick Topping Sub-Zero -- I 15 

## mean all of the other consumer products covered you 16 

## basically plug them in you know and what that 17 

## basically says is if you plug it in it is covered. 18 

## Is that too simple? 19 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Is it? 20 

## MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Tim you are smiling. 21 

## You are smiling do you want to comment? 22 

## MR. BALLO: Tim with Earthjustice. YeahASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## it seems to me that I mean maybe one way to address 2 

## this is cooled cabinet means a cabinet that has a 3 

## source of refrigeration capable of operating on 4 

## single phase alternating current, electric energy 5 

## input and is capable of maintaining compartment 6 

## temperatures and just to get rid of a lot of the blue 7 

## and red text. 8 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Is capable? 9 

## MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Do you want to repeat 10 

## that again? 11 

## MR. BALLO: The cabinet source of 12 

## refrigeration capable of operating on single-phase 13 

## alternating current, electric energy input and then 14 

## just delete everything down to "and is capable of 15 

## maintaining compartment temperatures". 16 

## MR. RAMIREZ: We are putting a strike 17 

## through it for now just in case. 18 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Just to repeat something 19 

## that maybe we confused everybody with. The provision 20 

## of 6292(a) the following consumer products, excluding 21 

## the consumer products designed solely for use in 22 

## recreational vehicle and other mobile equipment willASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## always apply, everything we do is subject to that. 2 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Stephen? 3 

## MR. SCHAEFER: I mean looking at the power 4 

## -- this is Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki America, 5 

## looking at power and looking at cars, some of the 6 

## reasons why you have had DC and AC there's lots of 7 

## different power going through here. You have bands 8 

## that have pull down TV's and you have kids that like 9 

## to have their Play Stations, X-Boxes, everything and 10 

## sometimes it seems that it is actually easier to have 11 

## both types and if they can use that actually it is 12 

## easier sometimes. 13 

## So it is looking at the intent of the 14 

## actual product and if you have a box that has DC 15 

## circuit it is you know, low voltage but you know you 16 

## have two different outlets, I think that is the only 17 

## reason they are looking at it. They are not looking 18 

## to have a cooler that can be cooled put on your 19 

## counter as a cooled box so that's why we are trying 20 

## -- I think it's pretty good at having the 21 

## single-phase alternating current, electrical energy 22 

## input because it is actually a DC product, lowASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## voltage. 2 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So how does this latest 3 

## alternation look then? Is this something that can 4 

## work? Let's see a show of thumbs. 5 

## MR. MOUW: I'm sorry Javier, can you 6 

## clarify which of the colors that we are -- 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: The part that's not struck 8 

## through -- so just the pieces that are not struck 9 

## through. 10 

## MR. MOUW: Okay. 11 

## MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Wasn't Stephen 12 

## talking about what was struck through though? No, oh 13 

## you are okay. 14 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Stephen? 15 

## MR. SCHAEFER: Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki 16 

## America, it looks good the way it is. 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So looking at the pieces 18 

## that are not struck through, again excluding the 90 19 

## or 72 we will talk about that next, but let's see a 20 

## show of thumbs if you are okay with that language in 21 

## the definition. 22 

## MR. BALLO: Tim with Earthjustice, thatASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## should be alternating current, not alternative. 2 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you, all right. So 3 

## let's see a show of thumbs. 4 

## (Panel voting) 5 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I have got to tell you what, 6 

## that was fantastic. That's exactly what I am talking 7 

## about as far as the minds in this room. So let me 8 

## ask you all the process piece here. Do you want to 9 

## break for lunch right now and then we come back and 10 

## we deal with the 90 or 72 or do you think that that 11 

## is something we can knock out before lunch? 12 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Why don't you take a 13 

## temperature real quick on 90 or 72. 14 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So -- 15 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Depending on what you feel 16 

## about that take a lunch. 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So let's see, a temperature 18 

## check on 90, thumbs? 19 

## (Thumbs voting) 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: That's looking pretty 21 

## strong. Do you know what just for formality 22 

## temperature check on 72?ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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### 1 

## (Thumbs voting) 2 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Formal vote on 90? Let's 3 

## see a formal vote on 90? 4 

## All right, 90 it is. 5 

## MR. HAGERMAN: We are going for lunch. 6 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Lunch is a powerful 7 

## motivator it seems like. All right so 8 

## congratulations it looks like for the most part we 9 

## have enough structure here for the next step of the 10 

## process which would then be identifying the products 11 

## correct? 12 

## Non-compressor -- we are going to lunch, 13 

## all right. So what time do you want to return from 14 

## lunch? 15 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Let's give everybody until 16 

## 1:15. 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: 1:15, great, so we will see 18 

## you all at 1:15. 19 

## (Lunch Break) 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so let's go ahead and 21 

## get started and George and Jenn are you both 22 

## available on the phone?ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. PARSONS: This is George I'm here. 2 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, okay I believe 3 

## Jennifer is muted. All right so then one logistical 4 

## -- actually two flights, what time are our flights 5 

## leaving today? Is there a time where people are just 6 

## going to be getting up and leaving? Chris do you 7 

## have an earlier flight? 8 

## MR. KUCH: 6:30. 9 

## MR. MARCINIAK: 4:00. 10 

## MR. RAMIREZ: At 4:00, all right so we 11 

## will do our best to get through as much as we can by 12 

## 4 o'clock if we need to hang over just a little bit 13 

## to try to wrap things up then that's what we will do. 14 

## Dates -- so we also need to make sure that we leave a 15 

## little bit of time for finalizing the dates, however 16 

## I would like to try to pick up where we left off. I 17 

## really like the way you all are problem solving and 18 

## trying to get through some things. 19 

## So while we were on break Ted hurried up 20 

## and copied and pasted this on to a word document so 21 

## it will be a little bit easier to make some edits 22 

## than on the power point slides. One thing I do wantASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## to clarify though -- on the cooled cabinets, we 2 

## agreed on all the individual components but we didn't 3 

## formally agree on that entire section for cooled 4 

## cabinets. I believe we are in agreement so I want to 5 

## formalize that so we can record the vote. 6 

## So is everyone okay with the cooled 7 

## cabinet definition and let me see a show of thumbs if 8 

## we are all okay with that. 9 

## (Thumb voting) 10 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. And Jenn's back, 11 

## again George if there is any problem just speak up 12 

## otherwise we will just keep going. Non-compressor 13 

## refrigerators -- let's call that one up and let's 14 

## take a look at that one and see if we can do the same 15 

## thing as we did with the cooled cabinets and make 16 

## modifications until everyone is satisfied. So I will 17 

## give you a moment to read that. 18 

## Now setting aside the 90 or the 72 for 19 

## right now, we will obviously address that. How does 20 

## the verbiage look? Jenn? 21 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, if we could also 22 

## set aside the last sentence because that's the sameASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## as that third bullet on the refrigerator definition 2 

## that relates to hybrids. 3 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so all the non-italics 4 

## language, yeah Charlie? 5 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon, are we going to 6 

## have another category which is freezers? Because 7 

## under the standards we already have we don't have it 8 

## covered here. 9 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I would like freezers and 10 

## ice makers. 11 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon, this is not 12 

## necessary the same as ice makers but as a freezer -- 13 

## self-contained freezer or refrigerator freezer 14 

## combination type of product. 15 

## MR. HAGERMAN: But you don't think a 16 

## freezer, icemaker are the same? 17 

## MR. HON: No. 18 

## MR. TOPPING: Non-compressor. 19 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Non-compressor freezer, or 20 

## one that is not integral to the cabinet but to carry 21 

## over the integral to the cabinet, not integral to the 22 

## cabinet logic too right?ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. RAMIREZ: Troy on that? 2 

## MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. 3 

## At the stage of the test procedure NOPR DOE was 4 

## proposing definitions for non-compressor all 5 

## refrigerator, non-compressor cooled cabinet, 6 

## non-compressor refrigerator because those were the 7 

## only configurations DOE was aware of so if the group 8 

## would like to define non-compressor freezer or 9 

## refrigerator freezer, I think that would be possible 10 

## but DOE just isn't aware of those products at this 11 

## time. 12 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I think if 13 

## you defined them then you don't have the regulatory 14 

## burden to recapture them, they are already defined as 15 

## a product then all you have to do is put a number to 16 

## them. 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right then while we are 18 

## working on this Troy could I burden you to maybe put 19 

## together a starting point for discussion on those 20 

## while we are working on this one? 21 

## MR. WATSON: Sure. 22 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so knowing that weASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## will be dealing with the non-compressor freezers I 2 

## guess next, Dick do you have something? 3 

## MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. 4 

## Could I suggest we might want to put the same clause 5 

## regarding electric energy in this definition as we 6 

## agreed to before lunch? 7 

## (Mr. Bantle making changes.) 8 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Any other modifications to 9 

## that top part? Tim? 10 

## MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with Earthjustice. 11 

## I'm just wondering, just a question do we need to 12 

## change the name on integral compressor refrigerator 13 

## or can we just live with it as it is. 14 

## MS. CLEARY: Did we decide formally to 15 

## follow that approach? Did I miss -- so I'm not sure, 16 

## I'm not saying that we are against it but I don't 17 

## think I'm ready to say yet so I am not sure that I 18 

## would be ready to vote on including that on the 19 

## definition yet but I agree if we do go that route we 20 

## should be consistent across. 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So what is the -- let me ask 22 

## why?ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. BALLO: Because the wording has been 2 

## included in the text, not have a compressor condenser 3 

## as an integral part of the cabinet assembly so it is 4 

## not strictly speaking accurate to refer to them as 5 

## non-compressor refrigerators, some of them may have 6 

## compressors. 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I'm letting you all chew on 8 

## that to see what it looks like. 9 

## MR. BROWN: Bill Brown with GE, the 10 

## bracketed comments at the bottom, the products that 11 

## exist for ambient I would say if you did have a 12 

## compressor that was not integral you certainly would 13 

## have a very good chance of meeting whatever 14 

## temperatures you are looking for at 90 degrees so I 15 

## don't know if the bracketed comment was part of what 16 

## we were voting on or it is just there for some 17 

## reason. 18 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Let's put a strike through 19 

## on it just for clarity. 20 

## MR. BROWN: Yeah okay. 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn? 22 

## MS. CLEARY: I might just be confused soASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## can I ask some questions for clarification? 2 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. 3 

## MS. CLEARY: The language about integral 4 

## part of the cabinet assembly, that was something we 5 

## talked about earlier, was that originally in what DOE 6 

## proposed? 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: No. (off mic) 8 

## MS. CLEARY: No right? Okay. 9 

## So I think it might be helpful as we are looking here 10 

## to be clear on what was originally in and what wasn't 11 

## because what we are discussing now is sort of 12 

## assuming that that would be in there and I'm not sure 13 

## if we agreed to that and that I think the same is 14 

## true Bill for your comments about what was in 15 

## brackets there that that was there when we started 16 

## this morning because it related to right -- the 17 

## products that we already analyzed I just want to make 18 

## sure I did clarify but I thought that is why he put 19 

## it there because the products they already analyzed 20 

## if they were tested under the 90 degree ambient 21 

## wouldn't be able to meet those temperatures. 22 

## So I think the existence of that bracketedASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## language applies if we don't include the integral 2 

## part of the cabinet assembly language but doesn't if 3 

## we don't. 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: And when you talk about the 5 

## original proposed language that was on slide 9 from 6 

## yesterday? 7 

## MS. CLEARY: Yes. 8 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 9 

## MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. I 10 

## mean if the real issue here is a concern that remote 11 

## compressor products are somehow not being covered or 12 

## dealt with then let's deal with that. I am not sure 13 

## that this is the section to deal with it in though 14 

## because it just causes a lot of complexity. And I 15 

## mean couldn't that be dealt with with the current -- 16 

## I mean it meets the current definition of a 17 

## refrigerator doesn't it or does it not? 18 

## MR. BALLO: It's my understanding, this is 19 

## Tim at Earthjustice, that it doesn't and I'm not -- I 20 

## wasn't suggesting we make these changes specifically 21 

## primarily to address the remote compressor product, 22 

## it's more of creating sort of a catch all categoryASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## for everything that isn't already refrigerator so 2 

## that we don't -- so that we limit ambiguities going 3 

## forward and also make sure that anything that isn't 4 

## already a refrigerator has to meet a set of standards 5 

## that reflects what is really possible. 6 

## MR. TOPPING: It's Dick again, I'm not 7 

## disagreeing with you it just seems to me we are 8 

## getting into an Elmo moment here -- that it's just 9 

## you know if we try to conglomerate everything in this 10 

## catch all then we start trying to deal with standards 11 

## for whatever its -- 12 

## MR. BALLO: Well my hope is there would be 13 

## one standard for everything that is in this 14 

## non-integral compressor refrigerator category and if 15 

## you leave out the non-integral compressor 16 

## refrigerators and just make it non-compressor 17 

## refrigerators, the standard is sort of limited by the 18 

## available technologies that fit within that 19 

## definition. 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn? 21 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary with AHAM. You 22 

## know I think this -- the proposal Tim that you guysASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## came up with is one that maybe we just need some more 2 

## time to think about. You know I think it was a 3 

## really creative approach to what we were talking 4 

## about earlier this morning. I know from AHAM's 5 

## perspective, although I have some of my members in 6 

## the room, I don't have all of them and I would like 7 

## the opportunity to go back and talk to the rest of 8 

## members as well as the members who are in the room 9 

## about their views on this and just think a little bit 10 

## more, myself and with my members about the 11 

## implications of that, something we haven't given any 12 

## thought to so I was just wondering if others feel the 13 

## same way and maybe if we could table that discussion 14 

## until the beginning of our next meeting when we allot 15 

## a little more time to think about it. 16 

## MR. RAMIREZ: And that is specifically for 17 

## the non-compressor refrigerator? 18 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, yeah for 19 

## including the non-integral compressor products and 20 

## you know this was -- when we came back after a long 21 

## break earlier, the proposal that was made I think we 22 

## are now just seeing that if we wanted to go that wayASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## we need to include it in this definition and it's 2 

## having downstream effects so if we could just have a 3 

## little time to think about that proposal this 4 

## morning. 5 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right, what do you all 6 

## think about tabling non-compressor and non-integral 7 

## compressor? 8 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna, this certainly 9 

## makes sense to me. I certainly understand that we 10 

## would like more time to consider that. The only 11 

## question it raises is I think it has implications for 12 

## the analysis and you know is it better to get that 13 

## process started. 14 

## MR. RAMIREZ: That is one concern 15 

## especially with our condensed time line. Is it 16 

## something that if we were to take a break that you 17 

## would be able to huddle up and see if something can 18 

## be agreed upon? 19 

## MS. CLEARY: Forgive my silence I was 20 

## thinking. 21 

## MR. BALLO: This is Tim, I just would 22 

## maybe make an alternative suggestion. One of theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## issues that we have been tabling is the hybrid 2 

## products and where the dividing line is there and 3 

## maybe if that is an issue we could sort of get out on 4 

## the table as well in the time we have remaining 5 

## because I would like to understand that better. 6 

## MS. CLEARY: Yeah I certainly wouldn't see 7 

## that this would stop our discussions now I think we 8 

## have plenty to talk about that is not impacted by 9 

## this but Joanna -- this is Jenn Cleary by the way, I 10 

## understand your point too that if we do decide we 11 

## want to go that way it is a big change to the 12 

## analysis so I mean I personally wouldn't object to 13 

## having that analysis move forward and that might also 14 

## give us all a better, or a more informed view on you 15 

## know, what the implications would be of agreeing to 16 

## it so as long as DOE wouldn't see that as a waste of 17 

## its resources, I wouldn't object to that. 18 

## MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool. 19 

## Perhaps we could continue to talk about the 20 

## definition overall and just table the non-integral 21 

## part of the definition. 22 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So would that -- can youASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## feel comfortable doing that and then seeing whether 2 

## integral or non-integral ends up in the definition or 3 

## not? Is that what you are proposing, get the rest of 4 

## it done? 5 

## MR. MOUW: Yes that is what I am 6 

## proposing, yep. 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right if everyone is 8 

## good with let's look at the rest of it. So then 9 

## correct me if I am wrong then you agree -- let's just 10 

## focus on the top one then right but we will just put 11 

## a strike through on non-integral for now. I think it 12 

## was somewhere on the third line. 13 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Where? 14 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So how do we have to amend 15 

## that one just as a strike through on that third line 16 

## -- "as"? 17 

## MR. YOUNG: Start at the "as through 18 

## assembly". 19 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so tabling 20 

## integral part, what else do we need to look at here? 21 

## Yeah, Nate? 22 

## MR. MOUW: Nate from Whirlpool. TheASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## second -- on the third line there says requires 2 

## electrical energy input only. I'm not suggesting we 3 

## delete that but I guess I am asking a question what 4 

## is that -- what does that clarify and if it does 5 

## clarify something then we should keep that language 6 

## also in the definition that we discussed prior. 7 

## So we replace that phrase with the phrase 8 

## that we have now added to this one and the prior. So 9 

## I guess the first question is what is -- does anybody 10 

## know the basis and history of that phrase? Is it 11 

## necessary given the first part of the sentence? 12 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie? 13 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing. 14 

## Absorption units quite often are input source of 15 

## natural gas or propane or something to actually run 16 

## the unit rather than electrical heaters and that is 17 

## very big as rural cabins out in the wood you have a 18 

## propane tank. If your electricity goes out your 19 

## refrigerator stays on. 20 

## MR. MOUW: This is Nate again. So -- and 21 

## in RV's as well you can run many RV refrigerators off 22 

## of electrical or propane but I guess is that nowASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## redundant to the first half of the sentence? 2 

## And a suggestion would be that whatever we 3 

## decide on this one should be consistent with the 4 

## cooled cabinet language as well, mostly consistent 5 

## with that language as well. 6 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So do I understand then that 7 

## you are talking about striking that? 8 

## MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool. 9 

## I'm suggesting we maybe rethink that entire sentence. 10 

## Now after lunch the suggestion to say operating on 11 

## single phase is capable of operating on single phase 12 

## alternating current I don't know that that's 13 

## completely -- I don' t know that that's complete in 14 

## describing what we are trying to describe. 15 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Dick do you have some -- 16 

## MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping. I mean I 17 

## think if we go through the time line from this 18 

## morning I think that requires electric energy input 19 

## was new to the definition for this type when we came 20 

## here this morning and had some definitions so I think 21 

## what the intent was to replace that phrase with the 22 

## upper phrase which is the same phrase which is in theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## cooled cabinet. 2 

## So whatever people are happy with is 3 

## probably what should be repeated in all of these 4 

## products. 5 

## MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool. 6 

## The only -- if we stay on this slide on the cooled 7 

## cabinet slide, the only concern I would have would be 8 

## if it is clear enough, you know a product capable of 9 

## operating on single phase alternating current. 10 

## Charlie I'm thinking of the example that you brought 11 

## of a product has a cord attached, but it also comes 12 

## with an adapter is that excluded or included? 13 

## Another case would be a product does have 14 

## a permanently connected DC cord but certainly that 15 

## product is capable of operating on an alternating 16 

## current given an adaptor so I just don't know that we 17 

## have covered that entire suite of products and made 18 

## it crystal clear and I think that there is some 19 

## improvement. 20 

## Unfortunately I don't have an obvious 21 

## suggestion right now, sorry. 22 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Let's tap in to some of theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## heads here, right? Dick? 2 

## MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. 3 

## Could we take "capable of" out? 4 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I guess I'm 5 

## just wondering Dick is that something that someone 6 

## can determine from you know -- the product that a 7 

## manufacturer is selling at the time of sale? 8 

## MR. TOPPING: Well I mean yeah this is 9 

## Dick, you buy one and it has got a plug you have an 10 

## operating manual so you know plug them into the wall. 11 

## I'm open to any suggestions you have I mean it but I 12 

## think whatever we select for one of these definitions 13 

## we should then carry through to all the other 14 

## definitions so it is not confusing. 15 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So sticking with the cooled 16 

## cabinet definition I'm not sure if you are saying 17 

## that with that modification it does work or if we 18 

## still need more dialogue? 19 

## MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool. 20 

## Again I guess there is a couple of ways to think 21 

## about it and I guess I would ask how is it typically 22 

## treated in these definitions -- you could use theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## words "designed to" "capable of" "sold as", so I 2 

## guess the question is which of those frameworks is 3 

## the one that is typically used across definitions I 4 

## just don't know. 5 

## Those are all different, "sold as" 6 

## "designed to" "used as". 7 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I think the answer is it 8 

## depends but I think we heard earlier from Ashley that 9 

## "designed to" is probably the weakest that you 10 

## presented so "capable of" seems to me to be the most 11 

## logical here. 12 

## MR. BALLO: So this is Tim, whether it 13 

## addresses the current definition of electric 14 

## refrigerator in the CFR unless I am looking at the 15 

## 2014 version of the CFR, unless it has changed 16 

## recently, it provides the unit has a source of 17 

## refrigeration requiring single phase alternating 18 

## current electric energy input only. Is that language 19 

## that we could apply to all of these products? 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Read it again. 21 

## MR. BALLO: Having a source of 22 

## refrigeration requiring single phase alternatingASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## current electric energy input only. 2 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Nate? 3 

## MR. MOUW: This is Nate and I guess that 4 

## would -- I think that is close but the word only 5 

## would exclude then the product that also comes with a 6 

## detachable DC power cord but I think we can build off 7 

## of that perhaps in some way to make it work for all 8 

## of those products. 9 

## Again based on what Joe provided earlier I 10 

## think the only product that we are trying to exclude 11 

## is that product that is sold to only operate on DC 12 

## with the accessories and product in the box. 13 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Jenn Cleary. We 14 

## talked about that language before lunch too, it's in 15 

## green there and so I'm starting to feel like we are 16 

## going in circles here and I'm not sure why. I think 17 

## I'm just confused, I'm not saying I think so I 18 

## thought I understood before lunch that we wanted to 19 

## include those products that came with the thing in 20 

## the box. So are you concerned that the language we 21 

## came up with before lunch didn't do that? 22 

## MR. MOUW: Is that language -- sorry thisASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## is Nate, is that language the green language? 2 

## MS. CLEARY: There's too much language. 3 

## The black language that is now partly struck out, 4 

## "capable of operating on a single phase alternating 5 

## current electric energy input". 6 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Do you have something to add 7 

## to that? 8 

## MR. MOUW: Yeah the only concern I would 9 

## have with that would be a product again that is sold 10 

## with a permanently connected DC power cord and is 11 

## still capable of operating on alternating current. 12 

## Maybe that's arguable -- maybe that's a stretch, that 13 

## product can certainly be run off of AC power with an 14 

## adapter that may come in a box. 15 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Jenn, okay so maybe 16 

## this is where I am confused then because I thought 17 

## before lunch we were saying "yes it can" and so it 18 

## should be included. Are you suggesting that is too 19 

## tenuous like? 20 

## MR. MOUW: Yeah I'm just trying to think 21 

## it through, all the configurations that are sold and 22 

## make sure that it is crystal clear for all those.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. What I 2 

## think is not clear here is if you make one of these 3 

## devices, it runs off DC power and then you sell an 4 

## adapter in a box right, you are going to be confused 5 

## whether or not you fall under this category -- you as 6 

## a manufacturer right? I think from DOE perspective 7 

## we are not going to be confused at all right because 8 

## you sold it and it has an adapter in the box, you 9 

## fall under this category right. 10 

## So I don't think you need to -- I think my 11 

## honest opinion of this is it is probably good enough 12 

## for the course of this discussion and then we can ask 13 

## for public comment on strengthening that as it gets 14 

## to the rule right and if we can get a comment on it, 15 

## it builds a better mousetrap then of course we will 16 

## consider it. I think we know what the intent here is 17 

## from this discussion. 18 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So then are we reverting 19 

## back to the language prior to lunch? 20 

## MR. MOUW: This is Nate, I think why we 21 

## got off -- why I got us off on this rabbit trail was 22 

## sorry go back to the next slide which talks aboutASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## requiring the electrical input only. We were talking 2 

## about now that we have this definition I think that 3 

## we are becoming more comfortable with whether that 4 

## should be deleted or not, whether it is necessary. I 5 

## think you were suggesting that now it is redundant so 6 

## we can probably strike that portion of the 7 

## definition, starting with the word "requires" and 8 

## ending with the word "only". 9 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Is that needed? 10 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I think it needs to be 11 

## struck out right? I mean that's what you are trying 12 

## to do here right? 13 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So then if we amend that 14 

## there then we have to go back and modify the cooled 15 

## cabinet as well? 16 

## MR. MOUW: (Shaking head yes). 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: It was struck. So does that 18 

## look doable then, going up from the italics up? 19 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So are we not including the 20 

## 90? 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: We will go into that next. 22 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. RAMIREZ: So as far as a temperature 2 

## check on that piece, let's see a show of thumbs if we 3 

## are okay with that. Okay, now the next part. Yeah 4 

## let's take the temperature piece and then we will 5 

## deal with that to explain 90 or 72 so do we want to 6 

## try what we did last time where it will require more 7 

## discussion. 8 

## So let me see a show of thumbs if we are 9 

## okay with 90? All right. Now the italics part, 10 

## what do we want to do with that? Jenn? 11 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Jenn. That's the 12 

## hybrid issue I think we were saying we were maybe 13 

## going to talk about next after we finalize the rest. 14 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. Is that 15 

## question just of the half? 16 

## MS. CLEARY: Yeah. 17 

## MR. HAGERMAN: It's not the whole idea of 18 

## the hybrid it's just the half? 19 

## MS. CLEARY: No, no we agree the hybrid 20 

## should be included. 21 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So 40 - 60 is a -- 22 

## MS. CLEARY: A totally different way ofASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## finding without a percentage. 2 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so we are going to 3 

## strike out the other non-compressor language that we 4 

## had below because we just put that in there to 5 

## compare that was from the original slide 9 so then I 6 

## will postpone the whole approval of that language 7 

## until we can iron out the hybrid but temperature 8 

## check wise we are okay with that. 9 

## There's one thing on here that when you 10 

## know from DOE if we include the word integral in 11 

## there, there's going to -- there might be some 12 

## additional homework involved, at least that is the 13 

## way I am understanding that and I guess Troy? Troy 14 

## or Scott I'm not sure who is the lucky one but there 15 

## is going to be some additional homework here if that 16 

## happens. Is that something that DOE is comfortable 17 

## doing without this group formally pulling the trigger 18 

## on that so if they do do it they will at least have 19 

## the analysis ready to go. 20 

## MR. WATSON: Troy Watson with Navigant. I 21 

## think at this point it shouldn't be too much of an 22 

## issue because like we have said if we switch theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## definitions to the 90 degrees all of those products 2 

## that we are aware of fall into the cooled cabinet 3 

## category and the analysis there already considers a 4 

## switch to vapor compression so I think that analysis 5 

## would still be valid and the analysis that we have 6 

## done to this point on non-compressor refrigerators 7 

## would no longer apply. 8 

## The information still might be useful when 9 

## considering cooled cabinet design changes but I don't 10 

## think there's too much of an issue there. 11 

## MR. HAGERMAN: My sense is the re-carving 12 

## has caused our analysis to jump buckets like we 13 

## talked before. 14 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So it -- 15 

## MR. HAGERMAN: It doesn't require anything 16 

## new, what matters is mechanically moving things 17 

## around and presenting them in this new carved up 18 

## world. 19 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay then as far as 20 

## temperature checks we are okay then with the 21 

## non-compressor refrigerator knowing that we still 22 

## have to deal with the hybrid issue but everythingASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## else should be okay for now. 2 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I guess two 3 

## things. I mean I think we would like to see 4 

## standards set for whatever we are going to call this 5 

## category of non-compressor refrigerators. And if we 6 

## do make the change to incorporate non-integral 7 

## compressor refrigerators I think there are products 8 

## on the market today that would fit that category and 9 

## should be considered in the analysis. 10 

## MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. I 11 

## see what you are saying and we can definitely look 12 

## into those product types but in terms of getting a 13 

## full analysis on those products specifically I don't 14 

## think we would be able to have that in a month but we 15 

## could bring the information that we are able to 16 

## gather into the next meeting and go from there. 17 

## MR. HAGERMAN: And my sense is we have 18 

## some information on this product, some. I am 19 

## thinking we might have some without speaking but your 20 

## membership or the members here might have information 21 

## too that they can submit to us so. 22 

## I mean this is a two-way street. I meanASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## we can get data and you can supply us data. 2 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Dick? 3 

## MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. 4 

## Joanna does it possibly make sense to make -- this 5 

## group could make a recommendation to address that 6 

## product in the next round of refrigerator standards? 7 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I don't -- my 8 

## understanding is that is not possible because they 9 

## don't meet the definition of refrigerator today. 10 

## MR. TOPPING: Even with the compressor? 11 

## They have a compressor right? 12 

## MS. MAUER: They do have a compressor but 13 

## it is not integral to the -- 14 

## MR. TOPPING: Do they have to be integral 15 

## in the definition? I withdraw. 16 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn? 17 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, Joanna I wanted 18 

## to address your question about could we provide 19 

## information on this product and the answer is 20 

## actually no. And it's not because we don't want to 21 

## but at least from AHAM our members don't make that 22 

## product and I don't think the manufacturers who doASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## are part of this process. 2 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Do we know -- so thank you, 3 

## do you know who those manufacturers are that we could 4 

## ask them? 5 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary. I think DOE 6 

## knows based on the conversation from this morning so 7 

## I'm sorry to turn your question back on you. 8 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Well it's all right to say 9 

## you don't know. 10 

## MS. CLEARY: I'm not just saying I don't 11 

## know but you guys do. I think you have the 12 

## information. 13 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay all right. So I think 14 

## we are okay to move on but the question I have for 15 

## you all then did we want to attempt to put together a 16 

## definition for non-compressor freezers, is that where 17 

## we are headed next? Yes, Jenn? 18 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Jenn. I'm not sure 19 

## how much value I really see in that at this moment. 20 

## I mean maybe we want to come back to that at the end 21 

## but if Navigant said those products don't exist I 22 

## don't know -- I would have to think about that aASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## little bit more if there is value in putting on 2 

## definition for a product that doesn't exist. 3 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right then what other 4 

## definitions do we need to work on then or we don't 5 

## want definitions? 6 

## MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earthjustice. 7 

## I guess I would suggest that maybe as DOE came up 8 

## with a bunch of definitions for us today it seems 9 

## like it would be relatively straight forward for one 10 

## person to take this back and hammer out a definition 11 

## for non-compressor freezers, just throw it in front 12 

## of the committee next time we meet and we can vote on 13 

## it but it seems like the key issues have been hashed 14 

## out and it shouldn't take the whole Committee's time 15 

## to come up with that definition. 16 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay Charlie? 17 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I would like to 18 

## see a definition as well. I mean freezers and 19 

## refrigerator freezers because that clears the DOE to 20 

## regulate at any time if products come into the 21 

## market. 22 

## MR. HAGERMAN: In my opinion it is noASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## different than the first category that we had right. 2 

## The first category that we had on product coverage 3 

## but no products. It seems like we should do it for 4 

## freezers as well. 5 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 6 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Just to stay consistent. 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Then that is something that 8 

## we would work on at the beginning of the next 9 

## meeting? 10 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Like magic Troy might 11 

## already have it. 12 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so why don't you 13 

## see if you could float that out to the screen. 14 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I will just remind you that 15 

## you asked him to do that before we started this 16 

## discussion. 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah I wasn't sure if the 18 

## group -- 19 

## MR. HAGERMAN: The big question I think is 20 

## going to be not withstanding some of these earlier 21 

## comments is does that definition also include this 22 

## non-integral component or not?ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. RAMIREZ: And that is something you 2 

## all are going to work on. So open up the outlook and 3 

## -- I'll tell you what let's take a quick break and 4 

## then that way we could just take a moment to get it 5 

## up on the screen for you. Ten minutes, all right so 6 

## let's do 10 minutes and then come back and hopefully 7 

## we will have the next definition up for you. 8 

## (Break) 9 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay let's get started back 10 

## up since we have everything up on the screen now. So 11 

## non-compressor freezer, I believe Troy was trying to 12 

## capture some of the changes that you all had 13 

## discussed earlier so hopefully he could reduce some 14 

## of the conversation on it. Take a look at that and 15 

## then we will go to the non-compressor refrigerator 16 

## freezer and then ice maker. 17 

## MR. WATSON: This is Troy, one thing I 18 

## noticed the section in 429 should be 61 instead of 19 

## 14, sorry about that. 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So let me ask the group what 21 

## do you think of this initial attempt of defining 22 

## non-compressor freezers? Any suggested changes?ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## Let's see a show of thumbs if we are okay with 2 

## non-compressor freezer. 3 

## MR. BALLO: Just to note quickly, this is 4 

## Tim at Earthjustice. Obviously the integrated issue 5 

## is something that would apply here and to 6 

## refrigerator freezers as well so depending on how we 7 

## resolve that at the time it may need to be tweaked a 8 

## bit. 9 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Do you want to put a note 10 

## somewhere on there, Jenn? 11 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary from AHAM, the 12 

## same is true for the hybrid issue it is at the end of 13 

## here too, so other than that. 14 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So then let's do the 15 

## temperature check both then right, knowing that we 16 

## may have to come back and do some amendments with 17 

## either adding integral as well as any hybrid issues. 18 

## But other than that, I said other than that how does 19 

## that look, temperature check? 20 

## (Show of thumbs.) 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay great and then 22 

## non-compressor refrigerator freezer? Okay and that,ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## I think there's two of those -- 2 

## MR. HON: Is the 14 correct on there? 3 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Does this have the same 4 

## integral component as the other one? Okay. 5 

## MR. BALLO: Which goes in the text as well 6 

## in addition to the name. 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Where specifically? Help us 8 

## out? 9 

## MR. BALLO: If we go back to the struck 10 

## out language there, an integral part of the cabinet 11 

## assembly. 12 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So we would have to cut and 13 

## paste that -- or copy and paste that strike out. 14 

## MR. BALLO: As an integral part of the cap 15 

## yes. 16 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I probably have to add that 17 

## into both of those? 18 

## MR. BALLO: Yes. 19 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Is that the correct location 20 

## then? 21 

## MR. BALLO: Yes. 22 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay and then -- all rightASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## so again as a temperature vote with the same two 2 

## components of integral as well as the hybrid, let's 3 

## see a show of thumbs if we are okay with what's up 4 

## there. 5 

## (Thumb voting). 6 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right, now we I think we 7 

## get to have some fun. Ice makers okay -- I will give 8 

## you a little bit of time to read that one and then we 9 

## will have some discussion. 10 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. Maybe 11 

## it's foolish to introduce this again because this was 12 

## just pulled out of the NOPR test procedure -- where 13 

## did you pull this from? Maybe Troy? 14 

## MR. WATSON: So this is Troy Watson from 15 

## Navigant. This is the definition that was proposed 16 

## in MREF test procedure NOPR and we discussed it a bit 17 

## back in January. I think some of the same issues we 18 

## have been discussing come up in this definition, 19 

## particularly the commercial exclusion with the NSF 20 

## ANSI standard there and I think part of the reasoning 21 

## behind this proposed definition is it is pretty 22 

## difficult to define an ice maker when you haveASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## freezers out there that include ice making 2 

## capabilities so it is kind of an exclusive definition 3 

## saying it is a product that makes ice and isn't one 4 

## of all of these other products that we have been 5 

## discussing. 6 

## So if there is any way to improve it or 7 

## clarify we are definitely all ears. 8 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie? 9 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. It will be 10 

## under the NSF argument as well. 11 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry what do we need to 12 

## modify there? 13 

## MR. HON: Let's see -- basically it says 14 

## excludes any basic model that is certified under 15 

## NSF/ANSI 12-2012 automatic ice making equipment. I 16 

## don't know why it would exclude that because it is 17 

## giving an out. 18 

## MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman, DOE. 19 

## And that is similar to the first definition 20 

## provisions that we said leave it up to DOE or 21 

## something like that? So maybe if you go to the first 22 

## definition and copy I think that's Section 4, SectionASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## 3, 1, 2, 3, that's right, copy that entirely, just 2 

## copy that entire line. 3 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, that would 4 

## be fine. But again we don't want to -- if we are 5 

## going to build things correctly, we don't want to 6 

## have someone jump in having a central test run and 7 

## thereby avoiding the standard. 8 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Do we have to put the 9 

## standards in there as well as 1 and 2? No, just that 10 

## line? 11 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman DOE. I think 12 

## that line assumes that we will have to do some 13 

## jiu-jitsu to figure out what to put underneath there. 14 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn you had something? 15 

## MS. CLEARY: I think that getting into the 16 

## details of this definition assumes that we should 17 

## even be talking about ice makers and AHAM's view is 18 

## that we should not be so you know, our view is that 19 

## ice makers are a completely different product than 20 

## cooled cabinets and hybrids and non-compressor 21 

## refrigerators and they should not be a part of the 22 

## scope of this rulemaking.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## They should be -- if they are pursued by 2 

## DOE at all they should be pursued in a separate 3 

## rulemaking and you know to support that I guess there 4 

## are many different arguments I could make but I will 5 

## just start with the basic function which is that 6 

## these are different types of products. Ice makers 7 

## make something, they make ice whereas cooled cabinets 8 

## and hybrids and non-compressor refrigerators they 9 

## cool something. 10 

## So you know I would look for feedback from 11 

## others on their view at least to start I think this 12 

## one probably will require a lot of discussion I'm 13 

## guessing from reading the comments. 14 

## MR. RAMIREZ: What are the thoughts or 15 

## comments on that? 16 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So I am not very 17 

## knowledgeable about the EPCA refrigerator rule so 18 

## somebody chime in here but it covers refrigerators, 19 

## refrigerated freezers and freezers. It does also 20 

## cover those products will ice makers in them right, 21 

## so isn't this sort of logically an extension of that 22 

## thinking? In the terms that we just went throughASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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### 1 

## refrigerator, refrigerated freezers, freezers, 2 

## hybrids and now ice makers. Go ahead. 3 

## MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I 4 

## can point out that during the commercial 5 

## refrigeration ice makers was handled on a separate 6 

## rulemaking so we would just be being consistent with 7 

## what was done before because they were different 8 

## enough to have two separate rulemakings. 9 

## MR. HAGERMAN: In the commercial but not 10 

## in the residential, not the consumer products? 11 

## MS. DANE: I don't know about the 12 

## residential but I think that there is enough 13 

## difference in the time frame that you are trying to 14 

## get this done to warrant looking at them separately. 15 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn? 16 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary from AHAM. I 17 

## mean I think it is a little broad to say ice makers 18 

## are included because we don't have a test procedure 19 

## to yet in the residential context to address energy 20 

## use from ice making and we are also talking there 21 

## about a product that is covered that includes an ice 22 

## maker. That's not what we are talking about withASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## stand-alone ice makers, it is totally different. 2 

## So as exemplified by the fact that ice 3 

## makers would -- stand-alone ice makers that we are 4 

## talking about here would require a completely 5 

## different test procedure. 6 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So just again I am not 7 

## familiar enough with the regular refrigerator -- also 8 

## I'm a civil engineer so keep in mind that I am 9 

## deficient at a lot of things. So do ice makers in 10 

## the residential consumer products, do they require 11 

## you have to have a freezer to store the ice and 12 

## everything? 13 

## MR. HON: Shaking head no. 14 

## MR. HAGERMAN: They don't. Can you think 15 

## of a product that is sold that I can imagine in my 16 

## head that makes ice and doesn't have a freezer to 17 

## store the ice? 18 

## MR. MOUW: Joe this is Nate from 19 

## Whirlpool. I mean I think you are on product classes 20 

## that are proposed. I think what the words were used 21 

## cooled storage, ice maker and uncooled storage and 22 

## then a portable right? And I think even theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## definition perhaps up here says "may also include a 2 

## means for storing ice". 3 

## So this definition in and of itself would 4 

## indicate that an ice maker could be a product that 5 

## doesn't even have a means of storing ice. 6 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Stephen and 7 

## Charlie. 8 

## MR. SCHAEFER: Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki 9 

## America. A lot of the different ice makers that you 10 

## are looking at in the homes, it's just basically a 11 

## box that has the ability to make a lot of ice and it 12 

## has a foamed in cabinet which will try to keep it 13 

## insulated, kind of like a cooler but it is not 14 

## actually cooling it like a refrigerator freezer. 15 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon, the reason for 16 

## that, there's two different reasons possible because 17 

## of something called stale ice. If you have a 18 

## chilling compartment in the ice storage the ice will 19 

## stay as it is and any pieces of dirt or anything else 20 

## that is in the compartment will tend to stick on the 21 

## surface. 22 

## But if you have a non-chilled ice storageASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## bin, it continually melts and you are constantly 2 

## adding fresh ice on top of it so that the product 3 

## that is being dispensed as a product which is the ice 4 

## is not three month old ice, it has not been sealed up 5 

## or covered or anything, it's constantly refreshing 6 

## itself by driving the old product down melt-off and 7 

## new product on top of it. 8 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So where there -- Stephen? 9 

## MR. SCHAEFER: Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki 10 

## America. I also agree with Jennifer that because of 11 

## the complexity here and the lack of an actual test 12 

## standard for the smaller units we would like to defer 13 

## to layering and try to keep it out of this area. 14 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I mean I think we 15 

## definitely, correct me if I am wrong, we proposed the 16 

## test procedure for ice makers right so if we want to 17 

## move to that next before we get to definitions, that 18 

## seems to be the roadblock. 19 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So Stephen? 20 

## MR. SCHAEFER: Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki 21 

## America. So my problem is that this is a product 22 

## that actually makes a product instead of just aASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## cooling cabinet or a refrigerator. It's different -- 2 

## I mean you see how much time we have spent over two 3 

## days just talking about the complexities here, we 4 

## haven't even gotten into really the beginnings for 5 

## ice makers so are we going to have enough time over 6 

## four different meetings to do this. 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn? 8 

## MS. CLEARLY: I guess I just want to 9 

## clarify a couple of things. One is I don't think the 10 

## test procedure is the roadblock for us. We just 11 

## think that these are different products that should 12 

## not be considered under the same umbrella. I mean 13 

## even just using the term miscellaneous refrigeration 14 

## products, it's problematic. 15 

## And secondly I want to clarify that I'm 16 

## not just suggesting that we shouldn't negotiate right 17 

## now about ice makers. I'm suggesting that ice makers 18 

## should be in their own rulemaking. 19 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Were there observations or 20 

## comments on this? 21 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Are there any comments from 22 

## people who don't make ice makers?ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. BALLO: This is Tim at Earthjustice. 2 

## I don't make ice makers and I am wondering because I 3 

## can count to three on my own -- if maybe we should 4 

## just sort of get a sense of where the group is on 5 

## this if it seems that we are not going to have 6 

## consensus on whether to even tackle ice makers in 7 

## this group which is the sense I am getting then maybe 8 

## this is just an issue we leave to DOE and it is not 9 

## something that we have to take up time with. 10 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Stephen? 11 

## MR. SCHAEFER: Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki 12 

## America. If we are asking to try and look at this as 13 

## a separate item from the DOE's perspective, what 14 

## would happen to this? Would it go straight to a NOPR 15 

## or would this come into a new rulemaking? 16 

## MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler, DOE. I 17 

## don't think we can answer that quite yet so we will 18 

## have to get back to you. 19 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn? 20 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary with AHAM. I 21 

## think it's relevant. It's at least for me important 22 

## to know what DOE would think it would do becauseASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## there are different consequences. 2 

## MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler, DOE. I 3 

## completely understand so I would like to take it back 4 

## and follow up on that. 5 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So then procedurally is that 6 

## something that we can do similar to what we did this 7 

## morning. Do we have to take a break on that? 8 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I mean we only have -- 9 

## since a couple of folks have to get a 4 o'clock 10 

## flight, I say we have our first official parking lot 11 

## item and that is the whole topic of ice makers and 12 

## then we can get back with everybody early on at the 13 

## next meeting or maybe we could clarify a position 14 

## over email or something of that effect. 15 

## Depending on when the next meeting is, I 16 

## don't want a lot of time to elapse between our 17 

## resolution of this issue and this Committee so. 18 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay then let's go ahead and 19 

## table that then, ice maker. And where do we go -- 20 

## let's see hybrids then. 21 

## (Panel reading slide) 22 

## I will give you a moment to look at thatASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## definition and then see if we can tweak it to make it 2 

## work. 3 

## MR. MOUW: Javier I'm sorry. If we can 4 

## back up I just want to make sure that the 5 

## perspectives from AHAM are clear and I think Jenn 6 

## stated it but I know there was confusion about 7 

## initially what the push back was for ice makers so if 8 

## we could have a chance just to -- give Jenn a chance 9 

## just to restate our position on ice makers. 10 

## It was clear the second time I just want 11 

## to make sure that it was made clear because there was 12 

## confusion about the test procedure and that that was 13 

## the issue. 14 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I apologize, I didn't want 15 

## to confuse the test procedure. AHAM has been very 16 

## clear I think from the beginning of this in their 17 

## public comments and we should circulate your public 18 

## comments that are on the docket, you can read them. 19 

## I don't think -- correct me if I am wrong. I don't 20 

## think your position has changed from your public 21 

## comments have they? 22 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary. No, ourASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## position hasn't changed from our public comments but 2 

## I think how we address it now that we are in 3 

## negotiation is what I am trying to express so I think 4 

## this group needs to decide in terms of the scope of 5 

## the negotiation what we discussed and negotiate and 6 

## what we don't and there is a difference to me in 7 

## whether ice makers is included in the negotiation and 8 

## we just don't reach an agreement and then it goes to 9 

## -- ice makers goes to NOPR with the rest of the 10 

## products that we do agree on. 11 

## Or if we say no, ice makers is not within 12 

## the scope even of what we are going to discuss in 13 

## this negotiation and that's where Sarah said DOE 14 

## would follow up on what path ice makers would take 15 

## after that or a third approach which would be that 16 

## this group would come to an agreement that we would 17 

## recommend that ice makers be covered or be addressed 18 

## rather in a separate rulemaking. 19 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Maybe back to Javier, maybe 20 

## not that we are voting on anything right now, just 21 

## take a temperature check in the room of whether or 22 

## not we should include ice makers or not, whether thisASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## is a position of all of the manufacturers or not, and 2 

## once you ask that question we can just a quick thumb 3 

## up, thumb down, thumb in the middle. 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So again a temperature 5 

## check, we are not bound by this but where are we at 6 

## as far as the group including ice makers in your 7 

## discussions so I am asking yes they are included in 8 

## our discussions, let me see where you are at for a 9 

## proposed rule, let me see a show of thumbs. Do you 10 

## have a question Jenn? 11 

## MS. CLEARY: I'm not sure if that's really 12 

## the question. I think maybe I'm trying to think of 13 

## what the question would be. I think our suggestion 14 

## is that ice makers should be addressed in a separate 15 

## rule making so perhaps the question really is whether 16 

## it is that. 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Well it is not binding, it's 18 

## not binding so either way. 19 

## MS. CLEARY: I understand but I am not 20 

## sure that I would know how to answer the first 21 

## question about whether it should be included in our 22 

## discussions.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. HAGERMAN: So let's just ask multiple 2 

## questions then so first should it be included in this 3 

## discussion, yes or no. Second, should it be included 4 

## in a separate rule, yes or no. 5 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so first one. 6 

## MR. MOUW: Sorry this is Nate, I'm sorry. 7 

## The answer to the first is dependent on the second, 8 

## the second is dependent on the first. 9 

## MR. HAGERMAN: They are mutually exclusive 10 

## questions right. 11 

## MR. MOUW: But they are not. 12 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Why can't they be? 13 

## MR. MOUW: The answer to the first 14 

## question would depend on the direction or the answer 15 

## to the second question. 16 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Would you like to ask a 17 

## third question then or a fourth question? 18 

## MR. MOUW: No I just think amend the 19 

## question. 20 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Okay then amend the 21 

## question then for us. 22 

## MR. MOUW: A different proposal. Maybe weASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## wait until we get feedback from the DOE on what would 2 

## happen if this group decides not to discuss it. 3 

## MR. HAGERMAN: That's fair. 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay I was trying to think 5 

## if there was another thing but I will leave it. All 6 

## right so then that puts us back to the hybrid 7 

## discussion, correct -- let's take a look at that 8 

## definition and see what we could work on that. Jenn? 9 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary with AHAM. I 10 

## think it's fair since I kept raising this that I 11 

## start off. AHAM's proposal in our written comments 12 

## was that -- or I guess I will start with our concern 13 

## with the way -- with the proposed definition and 14 

## treatment of hybrids is we are concerned that there 15 

## could be some products that would get a benefit from 16 

## being classified as a hybrid purely based on this 17 

## arbitrary percentage of at least half and so we would 18 

## rather see these products treated in a way that 19 

## wouldn't have that percentage basically to determine 20 

## it. 21 

## So our proposed in our comments and we 22 

## will make the same proposal here is that theseASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## products should be defined and I realize that each 2 

## product definition includes this so this would be 3 

## sort of -- we would have to work this into all the 4 

## definitions but you know as a refrigerating product 5 

## that includes a combination of one or more cellar 6 

## compartments and one or more refrigerator and/or 7 

## freezer compartments and it is very possible that we 8 

## need to refine that but the concept I think is what 9 

## is important to start discussing and that concept is 10 

## that if any compartment needs the cellar compartment 11 

## definition it would be considered a hybrid. 12 

## MR. RAMIREZ: And could you repeat that 13 

## again so Troy could capture it? 14 

## MS. CLEARY: A combination of one or more 15 

## cellar compartments and one or more refrigerator 16 

## and/or freezer compartments. 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie? 18 

## MR. HON: I have two points. Number one 19 

## is we need to find cellar compartments. Number two 20 

## is generally the word generally in a regulation is 21 

## just -- that just doesn't fit at all. 22 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Jenn Cleary. I thinkASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## that DOE proposed a definition for cellar 2 

## compartments so that is what we were using in our 3 

## proposal here. 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Can you recall what that is? 5 

## MR. WATSON: This is Troy. I can email 6 

## you the cellar and one of the hybrid, one of the 7 

## specific hybrid definitions. This describes just 8 

## it's a general description of all of those 9 

## definitions so instead of putting each one up there 10 

## we will just put the requirement that makes them all 11 

## hybrids. 12 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay yeah so if you could 13 

## work on that, that would be great. 14 

## MR. WATSON: Sure. 15 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So what do you all think of 16 

## that proposed definition? 17 

## MR. BALLO: This is Tim at Earthjustice. 18 

## I guess I just want to understand a little better 19 

## what's the inequity that it's intended to address 20 

## that would happen if we used the percentage criteria 21 

## to separate products? 22 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary. I think I wouldASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## ask maybe one of -- Bill, Nate, Dick, anyone to 2 

## describe that better than I can, I don't want to 3 

## confuse anyone. 4 

## MR. BROWN: This is Bill Brown with GE. 5 

## Situation would be if you have got a cellar 6 

## compartment if you are defined as a hybrid then you 7 

## would be testing that compartment at a 55 degree 8 

## temperature and if you were to find as a refrigerator 9 

## that we put it as low as possible or coolest setting 10 

## that is the situation we are trying to address. 11 

## MR. BALLO: So the idea is the test, the 12 

## temperature at which you test if you are classified 13 

## as a refrigerator is not representative at what you 14 

## would use it as in the field? 15 

## MR. BROWN: That would be correct. 16 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn, do you have something? 17 

## So with that clarification or understanding rather 18 

## how does that definition look? 19 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna, maybe just 20 

## another clarification is kind of the idea that this 21 

## would be similar to how refrigerator freezers are 22 

## treated today. You have two -- let's keep it simpleASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## let's say two compartments that are designed to be 2 

## kept at different temperatures and the standards 3 

## would take into effect or take into account the 4 

## relative volumes and the two compartments. 5 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary for the record I 6 

## will just nod my head and I will say yes. 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Joe? 8 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Just one quick question. 9 

## Generally what does generally mean? Right. Does 10 

## that mean nothing? 11 

## MR. BROWN: This is Bill with GE. Charlie 12 

## is exactly right. If I was writing the standard I 13 

## would never put a word like that in. 14 

## MS. CLEARY: I think Troy was just trying 15 

## to summarize what was in all of the other 16 

## definitions. It's not actually DOE's proposal. 17 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I didn't think it was DOE's 18 

## proposal but sometimes my consultants go crazy so. 19 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Going rouge. 20 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Generally that's the case. 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so we added some 22 

## of the definitions up here.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## (Panel reading the slide) 2 

## Trying to get all the definitions in on 3 

## one page -- Stephen, Chris, can you read that from 4 

## back there Mary? Okay. 5 

## (nodding heads yes). 6 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Dick? 7 

## MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. For 8 

## consistency also these products would be tested at 90 9 

## degrees as well, it is not in there. 10 

## MR. BROWN: Bill Brown with GE, they would 11 

## be capable of maintaining these temperatures in a 90 12 

## degree ambient? 13 

## MR. TOPPING: Yes. 14 

## MR. BROWN: Each time we talk about an 15 

## internal compartment temperature we have to speak 16 

## about what ambient that's what the ambient is. 17 

## MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson from 18 

## Navigant. Just to clarify in the test procedure 19 

## proposal that specification was included in the 20 

## Section 429 provisions so any time you see those pop 21 

## up in the definitions here that's effectively what 22 

## that is saying.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. BROWN: Okay great, thank you. 2 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so without 3 

## worrying about the exact verbiage at least not quite 4 

## yet there's a -- it's different right percentage 5 

## versus the idea of the compartments, does that work? 6 

## Bill? 7 

## MR. BROWN: This is Bill with GE. I do 8 

## want to make sure I mean the copy of the NOPR that I 9 

## am looking at right now says 72 degrees so when it 10 

## talked about the 429.61 so if I'm agreeing to this 11 

## I'm agreeing that 429.61 has been changed to 90 12 

## degrees and not 72. 13 

## MR. WATSON: Yeah so I think all the 14 

## updates we are discussing would be kind of across the 15 

## board so if there's anything up top in the 16 

## refrigerator definition that has been changed 17 

## already, those would carry over. 18 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Bill is that sufficient? 19 

## MR. BROWN: Bill, yes. 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so I am going to 21 

## take a temperature check then on the verbiage of a 22 

## combination of one of more cellar compartments andASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## one or more refrigerator and/or freezer compartments. 2 

## Let's see a show of thumbs if we are okay with that 3 

## concept. 4 

## (Thumb showing). 5 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Tim? 6 

## MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earthjustice. 7 

## I think maybe Joanna and maybe Chris and I might need 8 

## some time to vet that with people who have more 9 

## experience with the test procedure than we do and I'm 10 

## not saying right now that I would vote thumbs down, I 11 

## just don't think I have talked to everyone I need to 12 

## talk to to understand it. 13 

## MR. RAMIREZ: And, as far as timing goes 14 

## is that something that could be dealt with a break in 15 

## phone calls or is that something that we need to 16 

## return to at the next meeting? 17 

## MR. BALLO: Probably the next meeting. 18 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Then procedurally where do 19 

## you all want to go because there are some things that 20 

## if we are going to try to operate and reach 21 

## conclusion on a compressed time schedule I think we 22 

## are going to have some homework here, right. We areASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## probably going to have to exchange some emails and 2 

## see how much of this we could get wrapped up prior to 3 

## our next face to face. Would everyone be comfortable 4 

## with that? 5 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. I think 6 

## we have to be comfortable with that given the 7 

## assignment. I know we are sort of at a stopping 8 

## point but we still have time so we don't need to 9 

## stop. I would like to recommend we have dates to go 10 

## over still correct. We need to make closing remarks, 11 

## if you want to say some more things there is no 12 

## public to ask back there for public comment but I 13 

## guess there are some people on the phone that need to 14 

## speak if they want to speak. 15 

## Given that we still have some time before 16 

## it hits 4 o'clock maybe it would be good for Troy and 17 

## the Navigant team to go through the test procedure 18 

## part of the power point that I sent out or gave out 19 

## to everybody and go through that and see if there's 20 

## -- I mean obviously we are not going to vote on 21 

## anything today on those issues but at least go 22 

## through it so it could be fresh in everybody's mind.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## And then be prepared I think when we come 2 

## back at the next meeting time which is still to be 3 

## determined, we can close out the coverage all right 4 

## and then we can start getting the test procedures, is 5 

## that correct? 6 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Troy what I would ask -- the 7 

## documents that I have I don't know if it was the 8 

## final version or not, could you just email me those 9 

## slides and we can throw them up here just to make 10 

## sure that I have the most up-to-date version because 11 

## the ones that we were using yesterday those were on 12 

## Emily's computer. 13 

## I just want to make sure that we are 14 

## operating off of the correct version. Joanna? 15 

## MS. MAUER: I guess I am wondering if 16 

## maybe we could take five minutes to caucus briefly? 17 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Sure actually that would 18 

## give me a chance to try to consolidate some of the 19 

## homework so that we could review that, so let's take 20



## -- 21 

## MR. HAGERMAN: And I don't want you to 22 

## think that I'm trying to run this program here,ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## that's my proposal on what we can do for the last two 2 

## hours. If there is something else that somebody 3 

## would like to do, you know bring it forth all right. 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so let's take five 5 

## minutes, we will come back. 6 

## (Break) 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right let's go ahead and 8 

## start pulling this back in. And I think everyone 9 

## probably caught that the clock that was on the 10 

## computer screen was from my computer which is still 11 

## on Chicago time, so we only have about an hour left. 12 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So we just lost an hour 13 

## thanks Javier. 14 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I was here at 8 o'clock, or 15 

## 9 o'clock. 16 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So this is Joe Hagerman. 17 

## Since you all came back from caucusing is there 18 

## anything that you all resolved? 19 

## MR. BALLO: We resolved nothing. 20 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Okay good. 21 

## Congratulations. It sounds like time well spent for 22 

## everybody, thank you. So I proposed just real quickASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## -- Javier has us on a tight schedule since we lost an 2 

## hour. We are going to take 30 minutes to go over the 3 

## remainder of this deck and Troy made a good point 4 

## that we should probably revisit the product classes 5 

## just real quick at a high level, hopefully we can 6 

## keep this at a high level. 7 

## We are not going to take votes or anything 8 

## like that, I would like to walk away from here by 9 

## giving Navigant a sign that post us cutting up the 10 

## world that we just did, even though there are still 11 

## some unknowns or unresolved issues, that they could 12 

## start repackaging what analysis they have to better 13 

## inform us going forward right. 14 

## So to do that we have to get through some 15 

## of this product classes discussion so he is going to 16 

## go over that and then we will just present the test 17 

## procedures. I don't think we need to have much 18 

## discussion on it, I think he has some questions for 19 

## everybody to think about. But then come back at the 20 

## next set of meetings and hopefully we can resolve the 21 

## definitions, we will get a read back from our General 22 

## Counsel's office on what to do with the ice makerASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## issue and then we can get into the meat of the test 2 

## procedure and take it from there, so -- does that 3 

## sound good to everybody? 4 

## I'm sure I left out a whole bunch, but 5 

## remember I'm a civil engineer so. 6 

## MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. 7 

## And right now really the only thing to talk about 8 

## regarding product classes is for the cooled cabinets. 9 

## Everything else is kind of penciled in for further 10 

## discussion or decisions and based on the definitions 11 

## we have talked through the non-compressor 12 

## refrigerators kind of disappear at this point. 13 

## So for the cooled cabinets in the 14 

## preliminary analysis DOE just considered a single 15 

## product class and that's what the analysis to date is 16 

## based upon. And in response to the preliminary 17 

## analysis DOE received some comments on this and I 18 

## know yesterday I ran through these slides that 19 

## touched on some of these comments and I think the key 20 

## one is that -- or there are two key comments about 21 

## possibly splitting up cooled cabinets into additional 22 

## product classes.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## One was for separating out thermal 2 

## electric cooled cabinets and the other was separating 3 

## cooled cabinets into standard compact and built in 4 

## their freestanding product classes. So it would be 5 

## great to hear the group's thoughts on those. 6 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah and I think the groups 7 

## thoughts on those as it relates to giving them 8 

## direction on how to repackage the analysis they have 9 

## already done so we have some material and some meat 10 

## to get through when we reconvene. 11 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Do you all understand the 12 

## question? Yes Dick? 13 

## MR. TOPPING: Yeah Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. 14 

## The reason behind that suggestion is that you know as 15 

## cooled cabinets are not refrigerators as we have 16 

## heard over and over again for the last two days but 17 

## they are certainly in some respects similar to 18 

## refrigerators and are you know marketed and then 19 

## consumers kind of shop for them in somewhat the same 20 

## ways. 21 

## Anyhow -- and functionally the compressor 22 

## driven ones are somewhat -- so the arguments thatASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## apply to compact versus full size and freestanding 2 

## versus built-in apply to cooled cabinets as they do 3 

## to refrigerators and so for that reason the 4 

## suggestion that the same process that's been kind of 5 

## used to determine product classes through the years 6 

## for refrigerators, refrigerator freezers and freezers 7 

## really has applicability to cooled cabinets. 8 

## And if you look at the marketplace there 9 

## are you know free-standing and built-in products, 10 

## both full size and compact so. 11 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn? 12 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary with AHAM and I 13 

## think Troy also mentioned that there was a comment 14 

## about separating non-compressor products into a 15 

## separate product class and that was not part of the 16 

## AHAM proposal so I don't think that's something that 17 

## we are proposing. 18 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Right, I think we agree 19 

## after we carved up the world today the non-compressor 20 

## stuff would be moved in the cooled cabinets right? 21 

## I'm sorry, non-compressor refrigerators would be 22 

## moved in the cooled cabinets.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. WATSON: Yeah but just to clarify 2 

## those were all the product category definitions and 3 

## then those could all be split into separate product 4 

## classes if there is a consumer utility impact on 5 

## energy consumption. 6 

## Yeah and for the preliminary analysis we 7 

## only considered one but this was a comment we 8 

## received in response to the preliminary analysis so 9 

## I'm just throwing it out there for the group. 10 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, just commenting, 11 

## we wouldn't agree with that. I agree with what Troy 12 

## is saying, I'm saying we are suggesting four product 13 

## classes that Dick just discussed which is 14 

## free-standing compact, free-standing full size, 15 

## built-in compact, built-in full size. We are not 16 

## suggesting a fifth product class for a non-compressor 17 

## in the 61 for compressor. 18 

## MR. WATSON: So I think one issue that we 19 

## would be faced with going forward with this is our 20 

## data situation. So if manufacturers have any 21 

## information on the energy consumption for those 22 

## different types of products, that would help us outASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## quite a bit because like I said in the preliminary 2 

## analysis everything was lumped in together in this 3 

## one product class. 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So, Dick? 5 

## MR. TOPPING: Yeah Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. 6 

## Two things, one is I think you will be visiting some 7 

## manufacturers as followed to discuss that. Also what 8 

## does seem to be a hole in the analysis quite honestly 9 

## when we get down to the standards discussion is that 10 

## I believe all of the analysis was done on 6 foot -- 6 11 

## cubic foot cooled cabinets and nothing bigger than 12 

## that. 13 

## And you know that, you know is clearly a 14 

## hole. 15 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Can I follow up on that? 16 

## MR TOPPING: Yeah. 17 

## MR. HAGERMAN: You brought up something 18 

## that sort of relates to that. You said full size and 19 

## compact too, we would have to have a discussion on 20 

## you know what is full size and what's compact too so. 21 

## MR. TOPPING: This is Dick I think we 22 

## would probably just suggest the same you knowASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## breakdown as what you have today. 2 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I would -- and you guys 3 

## would know, the manufacturers would know better than 4 

## me. Do these products sold on the market naturally 5 

## divide themselves into those existing category 6 

## classes or because they are wine units they are 7 

## typically smaller, do you follow the question? 8 

## MR. TOPPING: We can perhaps provide some 9 

## data you know on that. 10 

## MR. RAMIREZ: What other data do you need? 11 

## What other information do the manufacturers have here 12 

## that would be beneficial for you? 13 

## MR. WATSON: Well we are always interested 14 

## in cost data, shipments, market information, but I 15 

## know that's information that the group probably isn't 16 

## willing to share in this setting but like Dick 17 

## mentioned Navigant is available for accepting data 18 

## under an NDA where it will only be available for us 19 

## for consideration in our analysis and wouldn't be 20 

## made publicly available so if there is any data that 21 

## manufacturers are willing to share onto that route we 22 

## would definitely appreciate it there too.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. RAMIREZ: So we will see a show of 2 

## hands of the takers? 3 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I think everybody is pretty 4 

## familiar how to work with Navigant in that capacity, 5 

## the NDA just to say again you know that is not 6 

## subject to any Freedom From Information Requests and 7 

## they actually don't disclose to us the manufacturers, 8 

## they just disclose to us aggregate numbers. We don't 9 

## even know -- 10 

## MR. RAMIREZ: And Troy you will reach out 11 

## to the manufacturers and work on that then. 12 

## MR. HAGERMAN: And Troy also we failed to 13 

## re-mention that we are always looking for thermal 14 

## electric manufacturers and more information on those 15 

## units so notwithstanding that is always out there. 16 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn then Dick? 17 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary with AHAM. If 18 

## Navigant would be willing to provide us with some 19 

## kind of a data request I could see if AHAM members 20 

## could provide that data to AHAM and then we could 21 

## provide it not only to Navigant but maybe also to the 22 

## group because it would already be aggregated so IASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## could talk about that with our members. 2 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Dick? 3 

## MR. TOPPING: Yeah and just in answer to 4 

## your question I mean this whole issue of compacts and 5 

## full size and built-ins and freestanding you know 6 

## goes back through 35 years of regulatory analysis for 7 

## regulated products, refrigerators, refrigerator 8 

## freezers and freezers and so I mean the arguments 9 

## that -- or the rationale or the need for looking at 10 

## compacts differently than full size units and looking 11 

## at built-in units differently than freestanding 12 

## units, those arguments are relevant for cooled 13 

## cabinets just as they are for refrigerators. 14 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay Charlie, good? 15 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Javier just so we can have 16 

## it on the record it sounds like one of the homework's 17 

## is for Navigant to send AHAM that data request and 18 

## then we will take it from there. 19 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah and I am going to 20 

## summarize all of the homework assignments before we 21 

## leave today, there's plenty. Jenn? 22 

## MS. CLEARY: I'm just wondering if maybeASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## some of the other stakeholders might want to share 2 

## and I'm not asking if you agree or disagree with this 3 

## proposal but it would be nice to get a sense of what 4 

## your questions might be or your thoughts might be 5 

## going to. 6 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Can I say one thing in the 7 

## past the last negotiated rulemaking that I did a 8 

## similar situation -- we had sort of two trade groups 9 

## and then some independent's and one trade group 10 

## aggregated their members, another trade group sort of 11 

## aggregated their members and then we got some 12 

## independents. They all submitted the data to 13 

## Navigant and then Navigant compiled it all as one 14 

## aggregate for the entire group right, so that's one 15 

## way to operate. 16 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, that sounds 17 

## great. I guess I was asking more like on a higher 18 

## level for feedback on our suggestion of the four 19 

## product classes. If that is something that other 20 

## stakeholders are open to or not. 21 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Tim? 22 

## MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earthjustice.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## To the extent that was directed at the efficiency 2 

## advocates -- I mean, I think you know we are on 3 

## record back a few years ago as opposing this separate 4 

## product class for built-ins but you know we lost that 5 

## so I don't necessarily see a principal distinction 6 

## for treating these products differently and so you 7 

## know if we have a separate product class for 8 

## built-ins I guess I'm okay with doing it for cooled 9 

## cabinets as well. 10 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Troy do you have some 11 

## more? 12 

## MR. WATSON: Yeah just a follow-up 13 

## question on the effects of separating out the product 14 

## classes. The preliminary analysis to this point 15 

## considered efficiencies and efficiency levels based 16 

## on the existing California regulations and that's 17 

## just one equation based on product volumes. So if 18 

## anybody has feedback as to how that equation as the 19 

## baseline for us to work off of would change or would 20 

## not be as appropriate for these new product classes, 21 

## I think that would be useful for us too. 22 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Does anybody have anythingASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## like that? Any information like that? 2 

## MR. WATSON: Or another way to ask would 3 

## be if anyone has information as to what that equation 4 

## was based on. I've gone back through the CC website 5 

## and it is kind of difficult to find the historical 6 

## support for their information so if there is a 7 

## typical product that represents that would be useful 8 

## to know. 9 

## MR. KUCH: This is Chris with Southern 10 

## California Edison. I probably have a contact for you 11 

## so we can probably touch bases later. 12 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right Troy do you have 13 

## any other information that you want to go through? 14 

## MR. WATSON: I think from there it might 15 

## be good to just touch on the test procedure quickly 16 

## because there are some issues with cooled cabinets 17 

## that would then affect our analysis again so the key 18 

## thing here would be the ambient temperature and I 19 

## know we have gone through this in terms of the 20 

## definitions but just because we are defining 21 

## compartment temperatures under a certain ambient 22 

## doesn't necessarily mean the products would be testedASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## in that ambient for the purposes of determining 2 

## energy use. 3 

## So in the NOPR proposal we presented some 4 

## data showing that for non-compressor cooled cabinets, 5 

## the energy use results get skewed when you test them 6 

## in a 90 degree ambient. When you test them in a 72 7 

## degree ambient they are able to maintain temperatures 8 

## and the energy uses fall out kind of where you expect 9 

## them to based on product sizes and features. 10 

## When you go to 90 those change -- one 11 

## because they are not able to maintain the compartment 12 

## temperatures and two because products are designed 13 

## with different cooling capacities so some of them are 14 

## working hard at 72 already and there is no room for 15 

## them to do any better at the 90 degree ambient so the 16 

## energy use result is the same, that doesn't really 17 

## make sense conceptually. 18 

## So it would be great to get the group's 19 

## feedback on whether the proposed 72 degree test is 20 

## appropriate for these types of products, especially 21 

## given the changes we have had to the definitions in 22 

## our discussions.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## And to just go a step further we did 2 

## receive comments on this. Some of them supported 3 

## testing in the 72 degree ambient, some of them 4 

## supported testing in the 90 degree ambient but those 5 

## again were under the context of the definitions 6 

## having the 72 degree Fahrenheit ambient clarification 7 

## so I'm not sure if those comments would still apply 8 

## given the discussion we have had this morning. 9 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn? 10 

## MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary with AHAM. Our 11 

## comment supported the 90 degree ambient condition and 12 

## it would still hold given the changes we talked about 13 

## earlier. And the reasons I think I discussed 14 

## yesterday which were the consumer representativeness 15 

## so I am not going to go through those again today 16 

## unless anyone wants me to. 17 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. As I said 18 

## yesterday it seems to me that testing at 72 would be 19 

## more representative but I appreciate the additional 20 

## information about the test burden involved with 21 

## testing some products at 90 and other products at 72 22 

## and I guess regardless we were concerned with theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## proposal that tests cooled cabinets using certain 2 

## technologies at one ambient temperature and others at 3 

## another. 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Did you have that Troy? 5 

## MR. WATSON: Yeah I think it might help if 6 

## I can put the data from the test procedure NOPR up 7 

## here and that might help show where these issues are 8 

## so I'm just throwing something on the slide real 9 

## quick and I'll send it over to Javier. 10 

## (Making a slide on his computer) 11 

## It's not pretty but it's the data that was 12 

## included in the test procedure NOPR. So the issue 13 

## here was the intent of the 90 degree test to simulate 14 

## operation in the 72 degrees with door openings and 15 

## loading. The issue with these non-compressor cooled 16 

## cabinets is the effect of the temperature itself is 17 

## kind of all over the place so you could see for one 18 

## unit it almost quadrupled at the 90 compared at the 19 

## 72 while another unit, the energy use was relatively 20 

## unchanged. 21 

## So since the effects of the increased 22 

## ambient were inconsistent for product-to-product, weASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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### 1 

## felt that the approach of using a higher ambient and 2 

## then applying a usage factor for these products 3 

## wouldn't be appropriate for all products on the 4 

## market. 5 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Bill? 6 

## MR. BROWN: This is Bill Brown with GE. 7 

## Were all these products that you tested certified to 8 

## California, because I'm looking at that second one 9 

## especially if it were tested under California 10 

## regulations, 647 kilowatt hours a year for 1.1 which 11 

## would not meet the standard at all. 12 

## And secondly the other question I have is 13 

## for sample number 3 that seems pretty obvious from 14 

## the data it was running 100% at 72 degrees and what 15 

## temperature was it maintaining at 72 versus the 16 

## temperature it was maintaining at 90, it just looked 17 

## from this data that it wasn't even working at 72 18 

## degrees. 19 

## MR. WATSON: So I don't think I have that 20 

## data handy right now in terms of compartment 21 

## temperatures but the CC listings I believe all the 22 

## products we were testing were certified. Actually,ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## actually no -- these thermal electric units may not 2 

## have been but I am not positive on that point either. 3 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Dick? 4 

## MR. TOPPING: Yeah Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. 5 

## You know Joe was talking about dead horses earlier. 6 

## I just keep thinking of the you know, the tail 7 

## wagging the dog analogy here. We spent a whole lot 8 

## of time yesterday talking about 90 degree testing, 9 

## the fact that it has a great track record. We test, 10 

## you know, thousands of models and we have for the 11 

## years you know using that test and it has served the 12 

## industry and the consumer actually, you know quite 13 

## well. 14 

## I mean the fact that there are certain 15 

## products that don't do well on that test I mean is 16 

## clearly an issue but I am not sure that that is a 17 

## justification for changing the test or you know, 18 

## there are other things that perhaps could be done but 19 

## you know we have a system that works now. It works 20 

## for the best, the majority of the products that we 21 

## are talking about and do we really want to change it. 22 

## MR. WATSON: Right and I see what you areASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## saying and it works for the products that it was 2 

## intended for so these vapor compression products up 3 

## to this point and I would have to tie it back to the 4 

## intent of the elevated ambient temperature which is 5 

## to tie it back to consumer use and these results 6 

## suggest that that isn't what's happening for these 7 

## products you know, at ambient. 8 

## MR. TOPPING: You know this is Dick, but 9 

## in spite of DOE's statutory problems that we have 10 

## heard about this morning, the utility of these 11 

## products is pretty much the same, you know they are 12 

## -- whether they have a compressor or not they are 13 

## supposed to provide a certain utility to the 14 

## consumer. 15 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So Joe Hagerman, DOE. I 16 

## don't think we feel strongly to be honest with you 17 

## either way, we just want to give you all of the 18 

## information so you could see that there is a big 19 

## different here right? So I think everybody has a 20 

## right to know that information and I think that's why 21 

## we wanted to present it right. 22 

## What the Committee ultimately decides toASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## do we know we will likely go along with it but it is 2 

## a pretty stark difference there. 3 

## MR. WATSON: Yeah and to follow-up on that 4 

## it's kind of a question at this point of how this 5 

## feeds into the downstream analysis if it is changed 6 

## because you could see the analysis in the preliminary 7 

## analysis was conducted on the 72 ambient products. 8 

## If we switched to the 90 it may be suggesting certain 9 

## things or technology options when those aren't 10 

## appropriate. 11 

## So unit 3 here is switching to a unit that 12 

## is working at full capacity at 72 but that's not 13 

## actually a more efficient unit because it is not 14 

## maintaining those temperatures in the 90. There's 15 

## just issues -- other issues I could see down the 16 

## road. 17 

## MR. BROWN: This is Bill with GE. I mean 18 

## let's look at this unit number 3, you are including 19 

## this in your sample size and obviously this is a unit 20 

## that is not even doing what it is supposed to be 21 

## doing. You -- it's running 100% at 72 degrees and it 22 

## is only trying to keep a 55 degree internalASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## temperature, assuming that's what you tried to keep 2 

## it out, so only a 17 degree Delta T and it can't do 3 

## that. It's running full out at that rate. 4 

## So any temperature above that obviously it 5 

## is not going to work either. I'm just wondering why 6 

## you would include in your analysis a unit that just 7 

## cannot perform to begin with. And what am I supposed 8 

## to take from that -- that I should be revising the 9 

## standards to allow products that don't work to give 10 

## them an energy rating? 11 

## It just looks like a product you wouldn't want. 12 

## If I were to buy this product I would 13 

## return it. It doesn't seem to provide any customer 14 

## utility if I can't maintain wine temperatures at a 15 

## mere 72 degrees with no door openings. 16 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Joanna? 17 

## MS. MAUER: So I think there was a similar 18 

## situation with the non-compressor refrigerators that 19 

## you tested that I guess all of them couldn't maintain 20 

## the target compartment temperature 90 degrees so I 21 

## believe the proposal was to extrapolate the energy 22 

## use results to estimate what the energy use would beASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## if they were maintaining the target compartment 2 

## temperature. 3 

## I guess I am wondering is that a potential 4 

## option here to test at 90 degrees at the lowest 5 

## compartment temperature that the unit can reach and 6 

## then extrapolate to the 55 degree compartment 7 

## temperature? 8 

## MR. WATSON: Yeah that was an approach we 9 

## could take. It wasn't considered up to this point 10 

## because it was based on the 72 degree testing. But 11 

## yeah if maybe it would be good to get the group's 12 

## feedback if that's more appropriate than testing at 13 

## 72 without applying any factor. 14 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Bill? 15 

## MR. BROWN: Bill Brown with GE. As 16 

## everyone knows that was a procedure in the Appendix 17 

## A1 and the Appendix B1 and it was removed by DOE for 18 

## very good reasons, one of those being that you're 19 

## rating a product -- you are giving a test result to a 20 

## product that that unit could never consume that many 21 

## kilowatt hours per year if you are extrapolating the 22 

## data.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## For example on this one that I'm testing 2 

## at 90, if I am extrapolating what would it be -- this 3 

## product here could not use any more, regardless what 4 

## ambient you put it in and 550 kilowatt hours a year 5 

## but you would be getting a test result of 7 - 800, 6 

## 900 kilowatt hours for year for this product so it's 7 

## -- now that's a problem I have with extrapolating. 8 

## We have a statement when we take our six Sigmund 9 

## classes you never extrapolate data and so that's the 10 

## one thing you are proposing and just as an engineer I 11 

## would have an issue with extrapolating data, 12 

## especially saying that a product uses more energy 13 

## than it possibly can. 14 

## MR. WATSON: Just to clarify there. I 15 

## might have misspoke a little -- so for the 16 

## non-compressor refrigerator proposal, the energy use 17 

## results would be based on its coolest setting 18 

## regardless of which temperature the compartment was 19 

## achieving and that would be its energy use rating and 20 

## then the extrapolation would be applied when it comes 21 

## to determining whether it complies with any potential 22 

## standards. So it would be factored into the maximumASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## allowable energy use for that product. 2 

## The energy use rating would be based on 3 

## the energy use as tested and that's for the 4 

## non-compressor refrigerators where somehow they 5 

## couldn't reach temperature. For the other product 6 

## types DOE did propose bringing back the extrapolation 7 

## approach because under the proposal products wouldn't 8 

## be able to maintain the temperature in the 90 degree 9 

## test but the previous proposal had included that 10 

## those products maintain temperature under the 72 so 11 

## for that reason DOE brought back the extrapolation 12 

## for those types of products. 13 

## MR. BROWN: This is Bill with GE. I mean 14 

## you are showing a sample here of a product that 15 

## cannot maintain temperature at 72. I just want make 16 

## that statement, you are showing data that contradicts 17 

## that. 18 

## MR. WATSON: So yeah that was generally 19 

## across the board for NCR's non-compressor 20 

## refrigerators, that's where we had the approach of 21 

## not extrapolating, taking the energy use result as 22 

## tested and then applying the extrapolation after theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## fact and I think that is something that would apply 2 

## to these products as well since we observed that many 3 

## of these can't maintain temperatures under the 90 4 

## degree. 5 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman so we are 6 

## pretty much at our cut-off because there are some 7 

## other things that we want to do. 8 

## MR. WATSON: Just one more point -- one 9 

## more clarification to add in here. I would like to 10 

## point out that under the proposed cooled cabinet 11 

## definition that we have been discussing there's no 12 

## minimum temperature threshold that the cabinets must 13 

## be able to achieve. It only mentions 39 or higher so 14 

## if the ability of products to perform under 90 is 15 

## something that the group is trying to add to 16 

## definitions that would be the place for it but right 17 

## now anything regardless of if it's 75 degrees in a 90 18 

## degree ambient that would still be considered a 19 

## cooled cabinet. 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right. 21 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So I think Navigant -- I'm 22 

## going to speak for Navigant right now because I wantASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## to ask them to do this anyway so I think they have 2 

## enough information given our previous discussions 3 

## about definitions and some of the general product 4 

## classes discussed here today to repackage their 5 

## analysis in a form that would be beneficial for the 6 

## first take of the next set of meetings. And we have 7 

## all this data tested -- I'm going to step away from 8 

## the extrapolation stuff at 72 and 90 and I think we 9 

## can easily apply different usage factors to it so we 10 

## will just go ahead and show you all of our work, show 11 

## you all of those different combinations and then when 12 

## we reconvene we can start making decisions. 13 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Bill? 14 

## MR. BROWN: Yeah one quick question. 15 

## Let's just assume that this product were tested and 16 

## it got to 70 degrees and a 90 instead of 55. So you 17 

## couldn't get an energy rating, would you require the 18 

## manufacturer to get a waiver for that product because 19 

## you cannot get an energy use from the test? Much 20 

## like the current refrigerators and the freezers in 21 

## today's standard. 22 

## MR. WATSON: So it depends on where theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## test procedure ends up. If the test procedure ends 2 

## up with an approach like was proposed for 3 

## non-compressor refrigerators, the energy use rating 4 

## could be based on the as tested energy use under the 5 

## cold setting and then any applicable standard for 6 

## that product could then be adjusted based on whatever 7 

## compartment temperature that product was able to 8 

## achieve. 9 

## Or if the group feels it's more 10 

## appropriate to use the extrapolation approach, that 11 

## could be applied but likely saw sometimes these 12 

## products are working just as hard at 72 or at the 13 

## cold and warm settings that there is no delta there 14 

## to extrapolate upon so it depends. 15 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so let's go ahead 16 

## and look at dates and see if we can lock those down 17 

## and then we will open up for any closing comments and 18 

## public comment. So of the dates that we were 19 

## exploring yesterday, May 20th we as facilitators need 20 

## to take that one off just because as many bodies as 21 

## you saw up here, we can't get the four lined up so 22 

## May 20th won't work, but of the other dates we couldASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## get coverage. 2 

## So the other date was May 27th and May 3 

## 28th, how does that look for everyone, May 27th and 4 

## May 28th? And let me back it up. Is that going to 5 

## be enough time to pull together any -- okay so May 6 

## 27th and May 28th how does that look? Okay. No, 7 

## okay. All right, then -- 8 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman. When you 9 

## comment as to you couldn't do it could you specify 10 

## you couldn't do it here in DC but you could call in 11 

## just so we could get some better -- 12 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Chris is that -- 13 

## MR. KUCH: This is Chris with Edison I 14 

## can't make it or call in. I will have to bring my 15 

## alternate in that case. 16 

## MR. ORMAN: This means you can be present, 17 

## this means you can call on this, this means you 18 

## can't. 19 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Excuse me that will get 20 

## confusing however what we could do is for just if it 21 

## is a go on the date -- let's look at the next date 22 

## and see if June 11th and 12th works, if it doesn'tASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## then we have to back up and see -- 2 

## MR. TOPPING: Javier just a point for 3 

## discussion. I mean given that we have made a great 4 

## start here, I think it's really important for the 5 

## next meeting too to have absolutely everybody here if 6 

## at all possible. I mean I can see after that maybe 7 

## there's more of an opportunity to have more people 8 

## participate you know, via the phone but you know we 9 

## are team building now too as well, I think it's 10 

## justified. 11 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Well let's look at June 11th 12 

## and 12th how does that look for everyone? That was 13 

## the next date that we had thrown out. All right, 14 

## George are you still with us? Okay. I didn't see a 15 

## thumbs down, all right so we are looking at June 11th 16 

## and 12th. 17 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So June 11th starting at 9? 18 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I believe so, we are looking 19 

## at full days right. Well to that point being 20 

## realistic, on the 12th are we talking about a 5 21 

## o'clock end time or are we talking about a 4 o'clock 22 

## end time? 4 o'clock end time so folks could grabASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## flights all right, just so we align expectations 2 

## because I would hate for somebody to leave here and 3 

## say if I knew we were going to be leaving at 4 I 4 

## could have caught the whatever flight. 5 

## So the 12th will be until 4 o'clock. 6 

## MR. TOPPING: Could we start earlier on 7 

## the 12th? 8 

## MR. RAMIREZ: We are all in town, yeah. 9 

## MR. HAGERMAN: And Earthjustice will bring 10 

## coffee is that what I heard? 11 

## MR. BALLO: I will put that into my budget 12 

## for this. 13 

## MR. RAMIREZ: If you could get it past 14 

## security, how's that. All right so then the next 15 

## days that we had were July 8th and 9th. Let's see 16 

## a show of thumbs for July 8th and 9th. 17 

## (Thumb voting). 18 

## I see a few thumbs down so let's look at 19 

## the next one, July 15th and 16th. All right, I'm 20 

## seeing fewer thumbs down on the 15th and the 16th 21 

## because the next one that we have -- we only have two 22 

## other dates that we were proposing that was AugustASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## 11th and 12th let me see a show of thumbs for 11th 2 

## and 12th. All right so that one is good. 3 

## Same time 9 to 5 and 8 to 4. Okay and 4 

## then the last one that we had was August 18th and 5 

## 19th. 6 

## (Thumb voting). 7 

## All right so the only thumb down is 8 

## Stephen. Stephen at that point what is your comfort 9 

## level of participating either online or with an 10 

## alternate? 11 

## MR. SCHAEFER: I would probably have to go 12 

## with an alternate. I already have an NRA -- I mean 13 

## not NRA but NSF joint committee meeting in Ann Arbor, 14 

## Michigan. 15 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Well yeah there's two 16 

## different NRA's right. 17 

## MR. SCHAEFER: No NSF. 18 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah which one. 19 

## MR. SCHAEFER: Lots of names, sorry. 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so then Stephen 21 

## are you okay then with an alternate on that day? 22 

## MR. SCHAEFER: Yeah I can try for anASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## alternate on that day. And then so then we would 2 

## have July 11th-12th, August 11th-12th and August 3 

## 18-19. Do we need to revisit -- June 11th - 12th, 4 

## August 11th - 12th and August 18-19. With that do we 5 

## have to revisit -- 6 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on what happened to 7 

## July 15th and 16th? 8 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I'm going back right now 9 

## because we had a couple thumbs down on July 15th, 10 

## 16th. 11 

## MS. CLEARY: Are we really -- do we think 12 

## we can be prepared for two meetings in two weeks? 13 

## MR. RAMIREZ: You know what yeah, are you 14 

## talking about 11, 12 and 18, 19? 15 

## MS. CLEARY: Yeah. 16 

## MR. RAMIREZ: At that point I think we 17 

## probably can, I think -- 18 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So right so we can -- can 19 

## we revisit that, let's first lock a July date. 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: The only other date that we 21 

## had was the 15th -16th. Let me see the show of 22 

## thumbs again for 15-16, let me see who had a conflictASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## there. 2 

## MR. HAGERMAN: The conflicts meaning you 3 

## cannot call in? 4 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right so what about your 5 

## comfort level with alternates on that day? 6 

## MR. BROWN: This is Bill, I could send an 7 

## alternate. 8 

## MR. KUCH: This is Chris, I can too. 9 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so then we will lock 10 

## that one in with alternates. And again same times 9 11 

## to 5 and 8 to 4 -- so going back Joe to the back to 12 

## backs, what's your 11, 12, 18, 19. 13 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So what I would tell 14 

## everybody go ahead and arrange plane flights for -- 15 

## gauge your comfort level, this is all going to get 16 

## through of course, 11th and 12th, July 15th and 16th, 17 

## August 11th and 12th and then don't book the 18th and 18 

## 19th and we may be able to move that last one or not 19 

## need it, depending on how we go right. 20 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So we might have a better 21 

## feel by the 15-16 about that 18th. 22 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Towards the end of theASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## process we usually are just refining things and 2 

## Navigant and whoever is doing the analysis turns it 3 

## around superfast just because we pressure them hard 4 

## to do that so likewise and someone caught this 5 

## yesterday but I don't want to make a big deal about 6 

## it -- the first meeting was on May 4th right, 7 

## yesterday right, my mom's birthday May 4th so yes it 8 

## was yesterday -- technically since the first meeting 9 

## was on May 4th we have until September 4th, not 10 

## August 31st -- I don't know if anybody caught that so 11 

## we have a little bit more time if we wanted to 12 

## exercise it. 13 

## MR. RAMIREZ: So we will revisit the days 14 

## then on the 15th and 16th just to see how both of 15 

## them look for everyone. All right. 16 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Does everyone feel 17 

## comfortable with that? 18 

## MR. RAMIREZ: All right then public 19 

## comments, Emily could you -- is anyone left? All 20 

## right. 21 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Do you want to unmute 22 

## everybody just in case. So everybody is unmuted,ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## please speak up and give public comments if you feel 2 

## so compelled. 3 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Going once, going twice, all 4 

## right. So then as far as homework goes this is what 5 

## I have identified so far and what I would ask is 6 

## anyone in the room if there was anything that I 7 

## missed let me know and I will add it. 8 

## Tim you are going to look at the hybrid 9 

## definition compartment versus percentage and see what 10 

## the comfort level is there. 11 

## Jenn you are going to look at adding 12 

## integral to the different definitions with your 13 

## group. 14 

## Navigant you are going to send out 15 

## information requests to AHAM as well as the 16 

## manufacturers for the data that you would find 17 

## beneficial. 18 

## The working group as a whole will identify 19 

## their alternates by close of business on Friday. 20 

## DOE you are going to find out if this 21 

## group does not take up ice makers what do you do. 22 

## DOE is going to provide whatever partialASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## analysis or information you have on non-compressor 2 

## freezers. I think there is some information that you 3 

## had on that. Joanna that was from your request 4 

## before? 5 

## MS. MAUER: I think it was actually 6 

## non-integral compressor refrigerators. 7 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Non-integral compressor 8 

## refrigerators. All right and then DOE will also 9 

## provide updated analysis information based on today's 10 

## modifications on the verbiage and the temperatures so 11 

## whatever modified information that you have you will 12 

## provide that. 13 

## Was there any information that was going 14 

## to be compiled on the cooled cabinets, the four 15 

## categories? 16 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. I just 17 

## wrote down a note that we are going to repackage our 18 

## analysis and so we will repackage the analysis given 19 

## the conversation today which will be in the four 20 

## categories and will be at the 72 and the 90 and 21 

## potentially different usage factors. 22 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## MR. HAGERMAN: And then not so fast 2 

## Javier, I think you have some homework too. 3 

## MR. RAMIREZ: I'm getting there next. I 4 

## have three points. We are going to clean up the 5 

## definition sheet and send that out, an updated 6 

## agenda, or cleaned up agenda as well as a brief 7 

## summary. Is there anything else on my list? 8 

## All right. 9 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Other than a thank you note 10 

## because we all appreciated everybody's time coming 11 

## out here and it was a really interesting and 12 

## thoughtful discussion so I think we are making good 13 

## progress and we appreciate your continued commitment 14 

## to make this a success. 15 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah and to Dick's point as 16 

## far as the team building, it does take a little bit 17 

## of time for the group to get comfortable and just 18 

## being able to get into a flow. We actually call it 19 

## the Performing Storming Norman Performance Status of 20 

## group dynamics so hopefully you will get a little 21 

## closer to that performing stage and really get 22 

## rolling. Thank you all and we will see you all onASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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## June 11th and 12th. 2 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So I think we can conclude 3 

## off the record but it would be nice to hear from you 4 

## all what you think we can be doing to make things 5 

## better or smoother, feel free. 6 

## MR. RAMIREZ: Anything that you like, that 7 

## you want to make sure we keep doing and anything that 8 

## we can do better or different. 9 

## OFF THE RECORD. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 195 **A a.m**  1:11 **A1** 178:17 **Aaaaaa** 9:19 **ability** 30:7 75:11 138:11 181:14 **able** 3:4 6:11 13:12 17:4 24:21 36:5 47:19 51:7 64:16 74:17 81:10,16,18 105:21 109:17 124:14,15 170:7 170:11 180:8 181:13 183:7 189:18 193:18 **absent** 29:11 41:20 **absolutely** 185:5 **absorption** 23:10 51:13 54:7 112:14 **AC** 84:1 88:21 89:21 90:9,16,21 92:6 95:6 118:13 **accelerated** 3:13 **accept** 59:8,11 **accepting** 164:17 **accessories** 117:12 **accommodate** 44:11 44:12 **account** 13:13 16:16 93:3 151:3 **accumulated** 6:9 **accurate** 17:13 104:4 **achieve** 181:13 183:8 **achieving** 179:19 **activities** 4:21 **activity** 47:22 74:17 **actual** 78:10 95:14 139:11 **adapt** 90:9 **adapter** 90:7 ,22 92:20,20 93:5 114:12 118:14 119:4,8 **adaptor** 114:16 **add** 5:1 22:10,11 28:8 30:9,12 31:17 51:6 67:11 71:11 ,12 79:11 85:21 87:4 118:6 131:16 181:9,15 191:7 **add-on** 67:21 **added** 32:14,17 ,20 46:5 48:10 86:11 89:13 112:8

151:21 **adding** 29:19 33:1 45:16 46:3 130:17 139:2 191:11 **addition** 33:12 131:6 **additional** 45:10 86:14 122:12,15 159:21 171:19 **address** 16:9 26:7 26:19 33:20 57:15 58:10 94:1 100:19 106:21 125:5 ,18 136:19 144:2 149:19 150:10 **addressed** 75:8 78:3 78:17 144:17 145:14 **addresses** 116:13 **adhere** 28:15 **adjusted** 183:6 **administrative** 19:4 19:10 34:5 ,6 **adopt** 42:6 **adopted** 41:21 **adopting** 36:20 **advances** 11:14 **adverse** 41:21 **advice** 74:18 **advocates** 168:2 **affect** 169:17 **afraid** 68:10 **agenda** 193:6,6 **aggregate** 165:8 167:14 **aggregated** 165:22 167:10,11 **ago** 18:6 67:20 168:3 **agree** 15:14 35:21 48:15 59:18 100:3 103:19 111:9 121:19 139:10 144:10 161:18 162:11 ,11 167:2 **agreed** 100:2 103:6 105:13 109:18 **agreeing** 36:6 110:15 153:10,11 **agreement** 100:4 144:8,16 **agrees** 59:19 **AHAM** 2:11 4:22 107:21 125:21 130:11 136:16 141:20 143:5 ,15

147:9 161:12,16 165:17 ,19,20 166:17 171:10 191:15 **AHAM's** 108:4 134:17 147:11 **ahead** 9:2 40:19 41:16,20 52:22 61:18 76:8 77:6 98:20 136:2 142:18 157:7 182:10 183:15 189:14 **air** 37:15 ,15 38:13 **akin** 29:13 ,17 **align** 186:1 **allot** 108:14 **allow** 67:1 177:9 **allowable** 180:1 **allowance** 65:8 **allowed** 10:21 **alternate** 184:15 187:10,12,21 188:1 189:7 **alternates** 189:5 ,10 191:19 **alternating** 84:4 91:8 92:5 94:4,13 95:21 97:1 113:12 114:9,15 116:17 116:22 118:4,11 **alternation** 96:3 **alternative** 97:1 109:22 **alternator** 91:22 **amazed** 6:7 **ambient** 20:19 60:14 81:6,12 82:7 104:11 105:20 152:12,16 152:16 169:18 ,21 170:1 ,6,7 ,15 171:3 ,4,6,11 172:2,22 173:1 175:4,7 176:7 179:4 181:18 **ambiguities** 107:2 **ambiguity** 46:6 **ambiguous** 80:16 **amend** 18:7 111:14 120:13 146:18 ,20 **amended** 32:17 **amending** 44:18 **amendments** 20:10 24:7 130:16 **America** 2:17 ,18

4:8,16 95:4 96:16 138:9 139:10,21 141:12 **analogy** 174:7 **analysis** 14:7 16:9 16:10,13 ,15 21:10 21:12,15 22:19 34:10 36:5 ,5 49:21 82:9 109:12 110:12,13 122:19 123:3 ,4,5 ,12 124:9,13 158:12 159:14,15 ,17 160:8 162:6,8 163:2,8,10 164:19 166:6 168:14 169:17 176:5 ,6,7 177:6 182:5 190:2 192:1 ,9,18,18 **analysts** 36:12 **analytics** 48:20 **analyzed** 49:3 105:17 ,19 **and/or** 58:2 68:15 148:6,16 154:1 **anecdotal** 11:13 **Ann** 187:13 **announcements** 3:6 **ANSI** 14:16,19 15:1 64:5 132:20 **ANSI/NSF** 63:21 **answer** 36:12,15 37:1 ,5 41:6 48:12 48:12 56:3 ,11 57:10,12 70:4,16 70:22 74:22 79:6 79:8 83:7 84:11 116:7 125:19 141:17 145:20 146:7 ,13 ,14 166:3 **anybody** 112:9 168:18 ,22 190:10 **anyway** 182:1 **apologize** 143:14 **Appearances** 2:1 **appears** 60:14 **Appendix** 178:16 178:17 **Appliance** 2:10,15 5:5 **Appliances** 5:7 **applicability** 161:7 **applicable** 32:14 183:5 **application** 28:5 67:1

**applications** 55:18 55:19 65:2 69:12 70:1 72:8,8 91:20 93:1 ,7 **applied** 64:1 67:2 179:20 183:11 **applies** 31:22 32:20 44:21 45:1 ,4,7 46:2,14 55:6 106:1 **apply** 14:17 16:3 22:16 27:17 31:16 32:2 33:6,10 34:16 35:3 ,12 45:13 ,21 46:4 48:9 95:1 116:19 123:7 130:5 161:1 161:2 171:7 181:1 182:9 **applying** 21:6 33:8 35:21 173:2 178:13 180:22 **appreciate** 164:22 171:19 193:13 **appreciated** 193:10 **approach** 22:11 ,14 37:8 69:17 103:15 108:3 144:15 173:1 178:8 180:7 180:20 183:2,10 **appropriate** 168:20 170:20 173:3 176:10 178:12 183:10 **approval** 122:6 **approved** 77:16 **arbitrary** 147:17 **Arbor** 187:13 **area** 139:13 **arguable** 118:12 **argument** 133:10 **arguments** 135:4 160:22 166:8,12 **ARMSTRONG** 54:11 55:10 56:2 56:16 57:1 ,20 59:15 ,20 60:6 67:13 68:5 ,12,18 68:21 70:10 71:21 72:5 ,16,20 73:21 79:5 **arrange** 189:14 **ASAP** 2:16 **Ashley** 7:12 13:17 116:8ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 196 **aside** 32:18 100:18 100:22 **asked** 128:15 **asking** 34:18,19 38:16 57:10 61:22 82:6,21 83:4 112:3 141:12 145:7 167:2,17 **aspect** 84:8 **ASRAC** 1:2 3:16,17 4:18,19 5:1 17:3 42:11 51:14 **assembling** 6:4 **assembly** 104:3 105:4 106:2 111:18 131:11 **assigned** 4:19 **assignment** 155:7 **assignments** 166:20 **associated** 21:11 **Association** 2:10 **assume** 182:15 **assumes** 134:12,16 **assuming** 105:12 177:1 **attached** 114:11 **attack** 72:14 **attempt** 126:15 129:21 **attempting** 10:6 **attending** 53:3 **augment** 28:8 **August** 186:22 187:4 188:2,2,4,4 189:17 190:10 **authority** 29:2 91:17 **auto** 84:10 **automatic** 133:15 **available** 51:9 98:22 107:18 164:17 ,18 164:20 **Avenue** 1:8 **avoid** 19:13 90:10 **avoidance** 14:21 **avoiding** 134:7 **aware** 29:15 50:17 51:15 102:7 ,10 123:2 **Awareness** 2:15 5:6 **B B1**  178:17 **baby** 6:4 **back** 4:20 8:21 11:2 11:9,19 15:6 17:3 25:7 27:2,3 32:16

33:3 35:12 39:6 43:20 46:9 52:9 52:13 ,14,18,18,22 53:11 58:8 62:19 75:3 ,16 76:13 ,22 76:22 77:20,20 79:6 83:10 86:13 91:5 ,6 97:9 100:10 108:7 ,20 119:19,22 120:14 126:7 ,20 127:10 129:6,9 130:16 131:9 132:17 141:18 142:3 ,12 143:4,7 144:19 147:6 152:4 155:12 156:2 157:5 ,8,17 158:19 158:21 166:6 168:3 169:4 175:3 175:5 180:6,11 184:4 185:1 188:8 189:11 ,11 **background** 37:11 39:22 **backs** 189:12 **bake** 58:21 **ball** 6:14 **Ballo** 2:8 4:9,9 17:7 17:15 19:12,20 20:6 25:11 26:4 27:13 30:14 31:21 33:7 ,15 ,19 34:3 ,9 34:15 35:1 ,13 ,18 36:16 41:15 42:4 46:11 53:15 54:1 54:12 55:5 57:9 57:15 90:4 93:22 94:11 96:22 103:10,10 104:1 106:18 107:12 109:21 116:12,21 127:6 130:3 131:5 131:9,14,18,21 141:1 149:17 150:11 154:6,17 157:19 167:22 186:11 **bands** 95:7 **Bantle** 3:8 5:13 ,13 103:7 **Barkas** 3:1 ,2 4:2 5:17 7:18 27:2 50:4 82:19 83:1 ,7 93:20 94:9 96:11 **barriers** 11:3

**based** 6:18 20:20 26:11 40:6 56:7 57:3 59:3 ,6,8 70:11 ,12 79:12 80:3 91:16 117:9 126:6 147:16 159:10,16 168:15 168:17 169:4 170:9 178:10 179:17 180:2 183:4,6 192:9 **baseline** 168:19 **bases** 169:11 **basic** 133:14 135:5 **basically** 14:4 74:15 90:20 93:16,17 133:13 138:10 147:19 **basis** 87:13 112:10 **batteries** 91:15 **battery** 29:5 86:21 91:22 92:1 **beat** 13:1 53:19 **beating** 7:2 54:1 **becoming** 120:3 **beginning** 76:14 108:14 128:8 143:16 **beginnings** 140:4 **believe** 7:14 11:2 17:2 25:22 30:6 47:10 53:1 69:10 69:19 83:9 99:2 100:4 129:11 163:10 173:21 177:21 185:18 **beneficial** 25:10 77:11 164:12 182:5 191:17 **benefit** 147:15 **Berkeley** 5:19 **best** 12:3 92:13 99:11 174:20 **better** 7:17 16:10,19 46:18 68:22 75:8 75:19 80:18 85:20 109:12 110:5 ,14 119:15 149:18 150:2 158:12 164:3 170:15 184:11 189:20 194:5 ,8 **beyond** 10:20 31:13 36:10 **big** 66:19 110:11 112:17 128:19 175:18 190:5 **bigger** 63:17 163:11 **Bill** 2:9 5:7 50:4,5 72:13 86:16,18 87:5 104:9 105:14 150:1 ,4 151:11 152:10 153:6,7 ,18 153:19 173:5 ,6 176:17 178:14,15 180:13 182:13 189:6 **bin** 139:1 **binding** 145:17 ,18 **birthday** 190:7 **bit** 7:17 11:2 15:10 20:1 ,2 22:1 23:19 25:13 58:21 92:10 99:12,15 ,21 108:9 127:1 130:8 132:8 132:16 163:1 190:11 193:16 **black** 118:3 **blah** 60:16,16,16 **blessing** 24:14 **blocking** 7:19 **blocks** 27:19 **blue** 94:6 **board** 153:15 180:19 **bodies** 183:20 **body** 42:10 48:3 **bolded** 60:17 **book** 189:17 **boring** 29:14 **bottom** 104:10 **bound** 11:10,18 12:18 13:4 145:5 **box** 55:12 56:18 90:21 92:21 93:5 95:14,19 117:12 117:20 118:14 119:4,8 138:11 **bracketed** 104:10 104:15 105:22 **brackets** 105:15 **brains** 65:22 **break** 8:20 11:3 25:6 26:18,22 52:20 53:8,16 58:19 97:9 98:19 99:19 108:21 109:16 129:3 ,8 142:7 154:14 157:6 **breakdown** 164:1 **Brenda** 2:7

**brief** 4:5 29:16 193:6 **briefly** 156:16 **bring** 12:14 50:22 85:19 124:15 157:3 184:14 186:9 **bringing** 50:19 83:16 180:6 **brings** 73:16 **broad** 21:22 136:17 **broader** 44:19 **brought** 3:7 10:15 43:11 114:10 163:17 180:11 **Brown** 2:9 5:7 ,7 50:5 72:13 ,18 73:2 86:18,18 104:9,9,20 150:4 150:4,15 151:11 152:10,10,14 153:1 ,7 ,19 173:6 173:6 176:17 178:15 ,15 180:13 182:14 189:6 **bucket** 11:22 12:2 55:17 57:2 74:7 ,8 82:3 ,3 **buckets** 123:12 **budget** 186:11 **build** 117:6 134:5 **building** 1:7 18:20 185:9 193:16 **builds** 119:15 **built** 15:17 68:4 160:3 **built-in** 161:2,9 162:15 ,15 166:11 **built-ins** 166:5 168:4,8 **bullet** 14:15 60:19 60:22 61:1 ,2,7 ,11 61:11 ,13 ,16,17 ,22 62:5 ,10 67:12 71:15 ,16 75:16,16 77:15 78:7 79:16 101:1 **bullets** 60:18 77:8 77:18 **bunch** 8:7 127:8 159:4 **burden** 102:14,18 171:20 **business** 2:9 26:6 191:19ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 197 **Butler** 2:5 5:10,10 10:17 ,19 11:8,8 21:9,9 73:14,14 141:16,16 142:2,2 **buy** 93:6 115:9 177:12 **C cabinet**  10:2 54:20 56:1 ,10,15 ,19 58:15 80:4,11 81:4 82:3 ,16 83:13 ,17 90:10 94:2,2,11 100:7 101:20,21 ,22 102:5 104:3 105:4 106:2 113:4 114:1 114:7 115:16 120:15 123:2,9 131:10 138:12 140:1 181:10,19 **cabinetry** 79:10 **cabinets** 22:8,16,18 43:2 47:7 48:18 49:1 ,2 56:8 58:13 74:5 100:1 ,4,15 134:20 135:7 159:8,13 ,21 160:2 160:3 ,15 161:2,7 161:20,22 163:11 166:13 168:9 169:16 170:4 172:1 ,16 181:12 192:14 **cabins** 112:17 **California** 2:14 5:3 47:18 168:16 169:10 173:8,9 **call** 7:4 13:16 31:7 ,8 52:10,10 100:13 124:4 184:10,14 184:17 189:3 193:18 **called** 31:6,7 138:17 **calling** 30:9 43:13 **calls** 154:15 **cap** 131:14 **capabilities** 133:2 **capable** 81:7 ,22 94:3 ,5 ,8,12,14 113:11 114:8,15 115:3 116:1 ,10 118:4,11 152:11 **capacities** 170:13 **capacity** 38:20 165:4 176:12 **capture** 84:10 85:2

88:2 129:12 148:13 **captured** 87:5 **captures** 85:9 **car** 83:22 86:20 89:10 **care** 8:10 **careful** 26:10 **carefully** 13:2 **carry** 86:21 101:20 115:13 153:17 **cars** 95:5 **carved** 123:17 161:19 **case** 15:2 29:11 ,15 30:13 48:10 52:10 62:6 94:17 114:13 151:20 184:15 190:22 **cases** 21:20 **catch** 106:22 107:10 **categories** 20:22 38:14,17 ,18,20 39:2 47:21 64:3 192:15 ,20 **categorize** 37:20 **categorized** 16:4 **category** 10:14,14 12:5 21:5 22:22 33:4,6 37:4,20 38:9 39:12,13 ,14 40:4,5 43:10,21 48:2 49:4,12,16 64:1 ,17 65:16 66:12 67:3 69:9 70:18 71:18 84:19 101:6 106:22 107:14 119:5 ,9 123:3 124:5 ,8 128:1 ,2 162:2 164:5 **caucus** 53:13 156:16 **caucusing** 157:17 **caught** 157:9 186:4 190:4,10 **caused** 123:12 **causes** 106:14 **caveat** 59:15 **CC** 169:4 173:21 **cellar** 148:5 ,10,15 148:19 149:1 ,6 150:5 153:22 **cellars** 83:6 **Center** 2:17 **central** 134:6

**certain** 30:4 67:3 70:6 169:21 172:1 174:14 175:13 176:8 **certainly** 41:2 92:18 104:12 109:8,9 110:6 114:14 118:13 160:17 **certified** 64:5 71:19 76:18 78:17 133:14 173:7 ,22 **CFR** 116:14,15 **chair** 18:10 **chairs** 52:14,15 ,18 **chance** 104:13 143:8,8 156:18 **change** 17:4,4 22:14 32:18 44:10 103:12 110:11 124:6 168:19 170:10 174:21 **changed** 116:15 143:20 144:1 153:11 ,16 176:5 **changes** 8:13 11:14 43:15 65:10 89:14 103:7 106:20 123:9 129:12,22 170:21 171:12 **changing** 66:2 174:17 **characteristics** 64:6 **charged** 64:11 ,12 **chargers** 29:5 **Charles** 2:13 **Charlie** 3:15 4:17 5:2 12:21 14:13 14:14 15:14 16:21 16:22 26:8,9 27:3 39:6,9,10,21 40:10,21 42:21 47:9 48:16 59:19 59:21 63:19,20 64:20 66:8 67:19 70:3 71:16 74:14 74:15 77:21 ,22 78:10 82:12 89:14 90:17 ,18 101:4,5 101:11 102:12 112:12,13 114:10 127:16,17 133:8,9 134:3 138:7 ,15 148:17 151:11 166:14 **Charlie's** 92:19 93:3

**check** 97:18,22 121:2 122:8 130:15 ,19 144:21 145:5 153:21 **checks** 123:20 **chew** 104:7 **Chicago** 157:11 **chilling** 138:18 **chime** 53:6 135:18 **choice** 59:7 **chose** 29:6,10 **Chris** 2:14 5:3 76:8 76:9 99:6 152:3 154:7 169:9 184:12,13 189:8 **circles** 117:16 **circuit** 29:17 ,19 95:15 **circular** 45:21 **circulate** 143:17 **circumvent** 64:7 67:10 68:16 **civil** 137:8 159:5 **clarification** 82:22 105:1 150:17 ,20 171:6 181:9 **clarified** 20:20 **clarify** 20:17 74:2 78:3 96:6 100:1 105:18 112:4,5 133:7 140:9,15 142:13 152:18 162:1 179:14 **clarifying** 8:5 ,10 **clarity** 27:7 51:19 104:19 **class** 14:5 22:20 23:14 24:2 58:3 159:15 161:15 162:16 163:3 168:4,7 **classes** 12:6 23:21 57:22 137:19 158:4,15 159:8,22 160:4 161:5 162:4 162:13 164:6 167:19 168:14,20 179:9 182:4 **classified** 78:4,5 147:16 150:12 **classifying** 68:1 **clause** 103:4 **clauses** 67:8,21 ,21 **clean** 66:21 193:4 **clean-ability** 64:7 65:4

**cleaned** 193:6 **cleaning** 74:3 **clear** 65:21 69:14 77:15 83:20 84:13 105:10 114:8,18 118:22 119:2 143:5 ,10,11 ,16 **clearly** 78:20 140:8 163:13 174:16 **clears** 127:19 **Cleary** 2:10 4:22,22 12:22,22 16:8 24:11 ,11 40:17 ,20 41:12,13 50:21 ,21 59:6,6 60:3 ,8,13 62:3 ,11 ,11 ,14 70:22,22 75:5 ,21 75:21 78:9 81:1 81:15 ,20 91:4 92:12,14 100:21 100:21 103:14 104:22 105:3 ,8 106:7 107:21 ,21 108:18 ,18 109:19 110:6,9 117:13 ,13 118:2,15 121:11 121:16,19,22 125:17 ,17 126:5 ,5 126:10,18 130:11 130:11 134:15 136:16,16 141:20 141:20 143:22,22 145:11 ,19 147:9,9 148:14,22,22 149:22,22 151:5 ,5 151:14 161:12,12 162:10,10 165:17 165:17 166:22 167:16,16 171:10 171:10 188:11 ,15 **clock** 157:9 **close** 117:4 156:3 191:19 **closer** 193:21 **closing** 155:10 183:17 **co-chairs** 3:16 **coffee** 186:10 **Cohen** 28:18,18 30:22 32:11 33:11 33:17 ,22 34:4,12 34:17 35:5 ,16 36:9 37:1 38:16 39:15 40:8,15 41:6 42:1 ,9,14ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 198 44:6,6,20 45:11 45:14 46:17 48:6 49:1 ,8,9,9 **coherently** 33:20 **cold** 80:15 183:5 ,13 **coldest** 82:13 ,15 **colleague** 3:7 **collective** 12:19 **colors** 96:6 **combination** 101:14 148:5 ,14 153:22 **combinations** 182:11 **come** 6:18 25:6 26:12 39:6 52:18 58:9 62:18 97:9 118:14 126:20 127:15 ,20 129:6 130:16 132:18 141:15 144:16 156:1 157:5 158:19 **comes** 10:18 11:20 89:21 114:11 117:5 179:20 **comfort** 187:8 189:5 189:15 191:10 **comfortable** 85:7 111:1 120:3 122:16 155:3 ,6 190:17 193:17 **coming** 18:6 41:2 193:10 **comment** 14:15 21:13 41:13 ,21 44:17 53:7 58:8 85:22 93:21 104:15 119:13 ,14 155:12 161:13 162:7 171:11 183:18 184:9 **commenters** 75:11 **commenting** 162:10 **comments** 3:15 4:5 6:19 9:4 27:10,11 44:14 69:16 75:10 80:12 104:10 105:14 128:21 135:13 ,15 140:20 140:21 143:17 ,18 143:21 144:1 147:11 ,21 159:17 159:19,20 171:2,7 183:17 190:19 191:1 **commerce** 73:18 **commercial** 15:8 29:5 33:4,6 37:11 38:6 60:2 63:22 65:2,6,18 67:15 68:2,8,17 69:3 ,11 69:15 ,21 70:1 ,7 72:2,8,15 ,19 73:5 73:8,10,12 78:10 78:18 132:19 136:4,9 **Commission** 70:9 71:3 **Commission's** 65:12 **commitment** 193:13 **committee** 4:19,20 17:3 42:16 43:14 46:22 47:11 48:7 48:13 53:4 127:12 142:17 175:22 187:13 **Committee's** 127:14 **compact** 160:3 161:1 ,10 162:14 162:15 163:19,20 **compacts** 166:4,10 **company** 84:2 **compare** 122:5 **compared** 22:2 172:18 **compartment** 81:11 82:6,9 94:5 ,15 138:18 ,20 148:10 148:10 150:6,7 152:15 169:21 170:11 173:20 177:20 178:1 ,5 ,6 179:18 183:7 191:9 **compartments** 9:6 60:15 148:6,7 ,15 148:16,19 149:2 151:1 ,4 153:5 ,22 154:1 **compelled** 191:2 **compiled** 167:13 192:14 **complete** 113:13 **completely** 113:13 134:19 137:4 142:3 **complexities** 140:3 **complexity** 106:14 139:11 **complies** 179:21 **complimentary** 17:11 42:22 43:12 **component** 128:22

131:4 **components** 100:2 132:2 **compressed** 154:21 **compression** 17:22 22:18,21 36:4 54:10,16 57:4 123:4 175:2 **compressor** 8:1 9:17 10:1 11:21 22:10,12 23:3 25:15 ,17 ,20 26:11 27:16 30:18 32:9 34:9 36:19,21 38:10 54:3 ,5 ,5 ,14 54:18,20 55:6,8 55:14 56:7 ,14,18 57:3 ,18 79:9,12 103:12 104:2,12 106:11 ,21 107:14 107:15 108:19 109:7 124:7 125:10,11 ,12 160:21 162:17 175:12 192:6,7 **compressor-based** 36:3 40:3 ,4 43:18 48:19 49:5 **compressors** 9:13 29:12 37:17 ,17 38:11 55:19 56:14 104:6 **computer** 156:12 157:10,10 172:10 **concept** 148:8,9 154:3 **conception** 43:6 **conceptually** 170:17 **concern** 42:20 43:19 44:4 62:10 63:19 90:5 92:19 93:3 106:10 109:14 114:7 118:8 147:12 **concerned** 41:4 43:11 117:20 147:14 171:22 **Conciliation** 2:4 **conclude** 194:2 **conclusion** 154:21 **condensed** 109:15 **condenser** 9:17 10:1 25:15 ,18 56:14 104:2 **condensers** 9:13 37:17 ,18 38:11

**condensing** 9:11 37:14,21 38:7 39:3 **condition** 67:5 171:11 **conducted** 176:7 **Conferring** 49:8 80:10 **configurations** 102:7 118:21 **conflict** 26:16 78:18 188:22 **conflicts** 189:2 **confuse** 143:15 150:3 **confused** 43:8 94:19 104:22 117:17 118:16 119:4,7 **confusing** 115:14 184:20 **confusion** 92:11 143:6,12 **conglomerate** 107:9 **congratulations** 98:8 157:21 **Congress** 29:6,10 30:8 31:12 32:17 32:21 **Congressionally** 31:19 **connected** 87:9,18 87:21 88:10 89:1 90:13 ,14,20 114:14 118:10 **connection** 73:7 **connector** 73:11 **consensus** 21:21 32:4,6 35:1 141:6 **consequences** 142:1 **consider** 13:2,4 16:14 19:17 22:3 23:18 36:4 54:18 57:2 64:21 65:13 78:13 89:17 109:10 119:16 **consideration** 34:10 164:19 **considered** 16:14 22:19 58:14 72:11 124:9 140:12 148:11 159:14 162:7 168:15 178:9 181:18 **considering** 13:5 123:9 **considers** 123:3

**consistency** 3:7 152:8 **consistent** 54:14 55:9 103:20 113:3 113:4 128:6 136:6 **consolidate** 156:18 **constantly** 6:7 139:1 ,5 **construction** 64:6 **consultants** 40:2 151:18 **consume** 178:20 **consumer** 13:9 55:18 58:2 67:17 68:7 69:5 ,6,8,12 69:15 ,19 70:8 71:2,3 ,6 72:11 ,16 72:20,22 73:2,15 84:19,20 88:10 93:15 94:20,21 136:10 137:10 162:4 171:14 174:12 175:5 ,14 **consumers** 160:19 **consumption** 64:8 65:7 162:5 ,21 **contact** 169:10 **contains** 65:3 **context** 21:21 64:14 136:19 171:5 **continually** 139:1 **continue** 110:19 **continued** 193:13 **contradicts** 180:16 **control** 19:8 43:22 **controlling** 44:1 **convenient** 53:17 **conversation** 6:13 7:6,16 24:9 31:14 126:6 129:14 192:19 **converter** 91:1 **convinced** 62:19 **cool** 135:9 **cooled** 22:8,16,18 43:2 47:7 48:18 49:1 ,2 56:7 ,10 58:13 ,15 74:5 80:4,11 ,19 82:3 83:13 90:10 94:2 95:18,19 100:1 ,3 100:6,15 102:5 113:4 114:1 ,6 115:15 120:14 123:2,9 134:20ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 199 135:7 137:21 159:8,13 ,21 160:2 160:3 ,15 161:2,7 161:20,22 163:11 166:12 168:8 169:16 170:4 172:1 ,15 181:10 181:19 192:14 **cooler** 95:18 138:13 **coolers** 83:6 **coolest** 82:9 150:9 179:17 **cooling** 138:14 140:1 170:13 **copied** 99:20 **copy** 85:6 91:7 131:13 133:22 134:1 ,2 153:8 **cord** 73:7 84:1 ,3 87:9,18,21 88:11 88:13 89:2,21 90:8,21 114:11 ,14 117:6 118:10 **cords** 87:12 88:20 89:3 **Corp** 2:20 **correct** 40:7 48:22 50:3 98:11 111:9 131:2,19 139:15 143:19 147:7 150:15 155:10 156:5 ,14 **correctly** 134:5 **cost** 67:8 164:14 **Counsel** 27:5 **Counsel's** 28:19 158:22 **count** 141:3 **counter** 19:10 24:6 95:19 **couple** 3:5 ,5 4:5 9:4 18:7 66:9 69:20 70:19 115:20 140:9 142:9 188:9 **course** 119:12,15 189:16 **cover** 13:7 ,15 14:11 22:17 45:9 47:13 48:8 66:18 71:6 135:20 **coverage** 3:10 10:21 13:6 28:4 29:20 30:12 31:17 33:1 46:5 ,15 47:18 48:10 50:2 70:11 70:12 79:11 84:18 91:18 128:2 156:3

184:1 **covered** 13:22 17:2 27:17 ,22 28:5 ,8,9 28:22,22 29:4,8 29:10 30:5 ,9,10 30:11 ,16,17 ,21 31:12,16,20 32:7 32:22 33:3 ,5 44:21 ,22 45:1 ,3 45:15 ,19,20 46:1 46:13 ,16 48:4,21 49:7 56:1 64:14 70:8 71:3 ,5 79:10 84:4 86:22 88:22 93:15 ,17 101:8 106:11 114:17 136:21 139:5 144:17 **covering** 14:6 41:1 **covers** 135:18 **CPSC** 70:16 71:1 ,4 **crazy** 151:18 **CRE** 74:8 **create** 16:2 17:5 29:10 32:7 **created** 39:17 ,19 46:5 **creating** 39:17 106:22 **creative** 58:9 108:3 **creativity** 54:21 **criteria** 30:1 ,4 149:20 **crossing** 14:18 **crosswalk** 33:2 **crystal** 114:18 118:22 **cubic** 82:16 163:11 **culmination** 69:1 **curious** 81:17 **current** 8:11 18:7 19:18 21:6 47:1 56:1 57:18 84:5 87:19 88:11 ,13 91:9 92:5 ,7 94:4 94:13 95:21 97:1 106:15 ,16 113:12 114:9,16 116:13 116:18 117:1 118:5 ,11 182:20 **currently** 13:22 32:15 **customer** 177:13 **cut** 71:10 131:12 **cut-off** 181:6 **cutting** 158:9

**cycles** 42:3 **D Dan**  2:17 4:8 25:6 26:18 27:7 ,10 28:18 41:1 44:6 44:14,16 49:9 51:16,18 59:9 **Dan's** 59:7 **Dane** 2:12 4:13 66:2 136:3 ,11 **DANE-GREENH ...**  4:13 **danger** 67:7 **dark** 86:13 **darken** 77:18,19 86:11 **data** 81:13 125:1 ,1 162:20 164:9,10 164:14,17 ,20 165:19,20 166:17 167:12 170:4 172:6,11 173:14 173:17 ,20 178:22 179:9,11 180:16 182:7 191:16 **date** 159:15 184:2 184:21 ,21 185:13 188:19,20 **dates** 3:12,12 18:2 99:14,15 155:9 183:16,18,22 186:22 **day** 10:16 187:21 188:1 189:5 **days** 140:3 160:16 185:19 186:15 190:13 **DC** 1:9 29:17 ,18 84:1 ,3 85:11 87:10,22 88:21 89:2 90:9,20 91:1 91:13 ,14,20 92:7 92:8,16 95:6,14 95:22 114:14 117:6,11 118:10 119:3 184:10 **dead** 7:2 13:1 53:19 53:22 174:5 **deal** 64:11 ,13 79:3 86:4 97:10 106:12 106:13 107:10 121:5 123:22 190:5 **dealing** 103:1 **dealt** 12:7 106:12 106:15 154:14 **decide** 103:14 110:10 113:3 144:4 **decides** 147:2 175:22 **decision** 86:7 **decisions** 159:10 182:12 **deck** 158:3 **decline** 56:2 **declined** 79:8 **defer** 139:12 **deficient** 137:9 **define** 18:17 31:8 37:4 38:17 ,19 39:12 54:3 102:8 132:22 **defined** 23:2 24:18 26:10 30:6 73:15 73:19 75:6 76:4 102:13 ,14 148:1 150:6 **defines** 27:20 28:21 54:15 **defining** 29:9 49:2 129:21 169:20 **definitely** 124:11 133:7 139:15 164:22 **definition** 6:18 8:3 8:14 10:10,22 11:18 12:9 13:11 19:22 22:17 25:14 25:19,20 28:1 ,2,7 34:13 44:18 46:10 49:10 51:20 53:11 56:21 57:7 ,8,19 59:1 ,1 ,2,4,8,14 68:8 69:3 ,7 ,13 71:5 72:10 74:3 79:19 80:4 81:22 83:13 84:8,12 85:2,4,6,9,10,16 90:10 91:4 96:21 100:7 101:1 103:5 103:19 106:16 107:19 109:1 110:20,21 111:2 112:6 113:19 115:16 116:13 120:2,7 125:9,15 126:16 127:2,10 127:15 ,18 128:21 129:7 132:15 ,18 132:21 133:2,19

133:22 134:16 138:1 ,3 143:1 147:8,13 148:2,11 149:1 ,16 150:18 153:16 181:11 191:9 193:5 **definitions** 7:13 15:8 20:18 24:1 57:22 70:13 102:4 113:20 115:12,14 115:22 116:3 123:1 127:4,5 ,8 139:17 148:4 149:7 ,9 151:16,22 152:2,21 158:21 159:10 162:2 169:20 170:21 171:5 181:16 182:3 191:12 **degree** 7:22 8:6 60:14 81:6,12 82:7 105:20 150:7 152:12 170:6,7 ,15 170:19 171:3 ,4,6 171:11 172:13 174:8 176:22 177:2 178:6,10 180:8 181:4,18 **degrees** 81:7 82:1 82:10,11 86:2,3 ,4 104:14 123:1 152:9 153:9,12 172:14 173:14,18 176:21 177:15 ,20 178:4 181:17 182:16 **delete** 94:14 112:3 **deleted** 120:4 **deliberation** 11:5 **delta** 177:2 183:13 **Department** 1:1 ,6 2:1 32:2,5 45:9 56:5 65:14 **department's** 14:10 19:12,15 20:5 41:19,22 **depend** 146:14 **dependent** 63:11 146:7 ,8 **depending** 97:15 130:6 142:15 189:19 **depends** 57:6,8 116:8 182:22 183:14ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 200 **describe** 113:14 150:2 **described** 31:19 **describes** 149:7 **describing** 21:8 113:14 **description** 45:18 149:8 **design** 123:9 **designed** 84:20 87:12 89:20 90:2 90:3 91:19 92:22 93:7 94:21 116:1 116:6,9 151:1 170:12 **detachable** 87:12 117:6 **detail** 76:10,15 **details** 134:16 **determination** 29:22 30:2 **determine** 11:6 46:13 ,15 115:6 147:19 161:5 **determined** 8:5 21:22 34:21 86:3 156:3 **determining** 13:6 86:2 170:1 179:21 **developed** 12:1 23:12 44:4 **device** 38:22 **devices** 119:3 **dialogue** 115:18 **Dick** 5:8 9:3 11:1 20:8 52:4 58:11 80:1 ,2 82:19 83:3 93:12,14 103:2,3 106:9 107:6 113:15 ,16 115:1 ,2 115:5 ,9 125:2,3 150:1 152:6,7 160:12,13 162:13 163:4,5 ,21 164:16 165:16 166:2 174:3 ,4 175:8 **Dick's** 58:8 193:15 **difference** 39:18,19 73:4,8 136:13 144:6 176:2 **different** 13:9,10,16 14:2 18:10 23:14 23:20,21 26:12 31:4,11 34:13 ,17 37:8 38:12,14,19 38:20 39:14,15 ,20 40:11 ,12 42:10

43:4,6,16,16 49:7 55:17 65:3 73:6 80:5 ,7 95:7 ,16 116:5 121:22 128:1 134:19 135:4,6 136:7 137:1 ,5 138:9,16 140:1 ,6,11 142:1 146:22 151:2 153:4 162:22 170:13 175:19 182:9,11 187:16 191:12 192:21 194:8 **differently** 16:12 166:10,11 168:6 **difficult** 132:22 169:5 **digested** 8:20 **direct** 87:18 88:11 88:13 **directed** 41:13 168:1 **direction** 4:21 146:14 160:8 **directly** 10:18 92:16 **dirt** 138:19 **disagree** 12:18 30:14 167:2 **disagreeing** 107:7 **disappear** 159:12 **disclose** 165:7 ,8 **disclosures** 70:12 **discuss** 24:6 41:10 41:11 62:7 75:14 75:17 ,22 76:2 91:6 144:12 147:2 163:7 **discussed** 15:6 36:14 59:16,17 112:6 129:13 132:16 144:5 162:13 171:13 182:4 **discussing** 11:13 17:17 48:19 49:11 53:18 55:3 63:16 105:11 132:18 133:5 148:9 153:14 181:11 **discussion** 7:14,21 8:7 ,12 9:7 10:12 10:15 11:5 20:20 23:19 41:8 47:5 ,6 48:14,21 51:4,19 53:9 59:3 ,7 61:22

62:2 63:2,7 ,13 ,15 79:20 80:3 84:7 102:19 108:13 119:12,17 121:7 128:16 132:9 135:12 146:3 147:7 158:15 ,18 159:10 163:9,19 171:8 185:3 193:12 **discussions** 11:16 50:18 110:7 145:7 145:8,22 170:22 182:2 **dispensed** 139:3 **display** 7:17 **distinction** 30:18 69:15 73:11 168:5 **distinguishing** 70:15 **distributed** 73:18 **dive** 38:2 **diverses** 43:13 **divide** 164:5 **dividing** 110:2 **doable** 120:18 **docket** 143:18 **document** 99:20 **documents** 156:7 **DOE** 2:5 ,6,7 5:10 5:12 6:12 7:8,11 10:19 11:8 13:1 16:9 17:17 18:3 21:10,20,22 22:3 24:19 25:5 26:10 27:9 28:7 ,19 35:22 41:17 51:11 56:19 59:17 69:2 70:13 73:15 74:2 74:16,19 75:9,12 78:3 ,13 ,17 ,21 79:4 102:3 ,7 ,10 105:5 110:16 119:1 ,6 121:14 122:10,16 126:5 127:7 ,19 132:10 133:18 ,20 134:11 135:2 141:8,16,22 142:2 144:13 147:1 149:1 155:5 159:14,17 175:15 178:17 180:6,11 191:20,22 192:8 192:16 **DOE's** 24:14 29:2 41:3 48:4 57:22 67:18 68:13 141:13 151:16,17 175:9 **dog** 174:7 **doing** 10:18 39:11 111:1 122:17 168:8 176:20,21 190:2 194:4,7 **dollars** 64:4,15 66:6 66:17 **don'** 113:13 **door** 46:9 172:14 177:15 **downstream** 109:2 176:5 **drawn** 19:21 **drill** 87:15 **drive** 92:1 **driven** 11:21 160:22 **driving** 139:6 **drop-dead** 11:5 **dual** 66:14 88:14,19 **due** 15:15 **dynamics** 193:20 **E earlier**  40:21 54:2 58:8 79:7 ,8 99:7 105:5 108:4,21 116:8 117:9 128:20 129:13 171:13 174:5 186:6 **early** 142:12 **ears** 133:7 **Earthjustice** 2:8 4:9 17:8,15 25:11 27:14 41:16 53:15 90:4 93:22 96:22 103:10 106:19 127:6 130:4 141:1 149:17 154:6 167:22 186:9 **easier** 95:10,12 99:21 **easily** 20:22 182:9 **easy** 50:1 **Edison** 2:14 5:4 76:9 169:10 184:13 **edits** 99:21 **Edwards** 2:7 **effect** 142:14 151:3 172:16 **effectively** 152:21 **effects** 109:2 168:13 172:21 **efficiencies** 40:13 168:15 **efficiency** 17:22 34:11 168:1 ,15 **efficient** 36:2 40:3 49:6 176:13 **Eileen** 3:2 4:2 18:13 **either** 9:13 13:21 16:21 37:2 45:9 74:22 80:18 82:2 130:17 145:18 174:2 175:17 177:5 187:9 **elapse** 142:16 **electric** 9:18,22 10:6 10:13 22:8,18 23:10 33:8 91:9 92:6 94:4,13 103:5 113:18 116:13 ,18 117:1 118:5 160:2 165:14 174:1 **electrical** 83:19 84:5 84:7 87:17 88:7 ,9 95:21 112:2,16,22 120:1 **electrically** 67:4 **electricity** 112:18 **electrics** 9:12 10:7 **Electrolux** 6:1 **elevated** 175:4 **Elmo** 6:22 7:4 107:8 **email** 142:14 149:5 156:8 **emails** 155:1 **emergency** 53:3 **Emerson** 6:1 **Emily** 190:19 **Emily's** 156:12 **emphasis** 43:16 **empower** 6:21 **enable** 90:8 **enacted** 19:6 **encourage** 22:3 **ends** 49:16 111:2 183:1 ,1 **energy** 1:1 ,6 2:1 15:3 16:16 17:22 64:8 65:6 83:19 84:5 87:17 88:7 ,9 91:9 94:4,13 95:21 103:5 112:2 113:18 116:18 117:1 118:5ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 201 136:19 162:5 ,21 170:2,5 ,8,16 172:19 177:10,21 177:22 179:12,16 179:19 180:1 ,2,3 180:21 182:17 ,19 183:3 ,4 **Energy's** 65:15 **enforced** 19:7 **enforcement** 93:9 **engineer** 137:8 159:5 179:10 **engineering** 34:10 **enjoyed** 51:18 **entire** 100:3 113:9 114:17 134:2 167:14 **entirely** 85:3 134:1 **EPCA** 10:19 13:4 13:11 54:15 55:5 73:15 135:17 **EPCA's** 33:2 **equal** 32:9 **equally** 14:8 **equation** 168:17 ,18 169:3 **equipment** 31:6 32:22 47:15 66:19 68:2,8 69:4,22 84:22 89:17 ,20,22 90:2 94:22 133:15 **equivalent** 36:7 54:9 **especially** 109:15 170:20 173:9 179:12 **essentially** 28:13 32:8 36:18 55:17 68:6 91:20 **establish** 91:17 **established** 30:8 42:7 70:13 **estimate** 177:22 **evade** 90:6 **everybody** 20:15 29:14 34:21 50:12 59:22 94:19 98:15 142:12 155:19 157:22 158:19 159:3 165:3 175:19 185:5 189:14 190:22,22 **everybody's** 155:22 193:10 **exact** 153:3 **exactly** 17:14 37:22 39:11 87:1 97:6 151:12 **example** 114:10 179:1 **exception** 14:22 **exchange** 155:1 **exclude** 9:18 15:7 80:17 84:20 87:20 88:8,14,19 91:12 117:5 ,10 133:16 **excluded** 8:11 88:22 114:12 **excludes** 133:14 **excluding** 9:16 86:10,15 87:17 88:9 94:20 96:18 **exclusion** 60:1 89:1 89:2 132:19 **exclusive** 63:22 133:2 146:9 **excuse** 70:7 184:19 **exemplified** 137:2 **exempt** 64:16 **exempted** 15:3 47:17 64:8 **exemption** 65:9 **exercise** 190:12 **exhausted** 6:6 **exist** 49:21 50:1 ,6 51:2 104:11 126:21 127:2 **existence** 105:22 **existing** 13:11 17:1 18:4 44:12 164:5 168:16 **exists** 17:1 **expanding** 12:15 **expect** 170:8 **expectations** 186:1 **expense** 64:16 **experience** 154:9 **explain** 91:12 121:5 **explanation** 41:3 73:16 **explicit** 18:3 90:5 **explicitly** 15:16 **exploring** 183:19 **express** 27:9 144:3 **extension** 135:21 **extent** 79:1 168:1 **extra** 44:9 64:4 **extrapolate** 177:21 178:6 179:9 183:14 **extrapolating** 178:21 179:2,7 ,11 180:21

**extrapolation** 179:20 180:6,11 180:22 182:8 183:10 **F F**  2:19 60:14 **face** 155:3 ,3 **faced** 162:19 **Facilator** 2:3 **facilitators** 4:3 183:19 **facing** 74:16 **fact** 15:16 18:19 49:5 75:13 78:2 137:2 174:9,14 181:1 **factor** 70:15 173:2 178:13 **factored** 179:22 **factors** 67:7 182:9 192:21 **Fahrenheit** 8:6 171:6 **failed** 165:12 **fair** 147:3 ,10 **fairly** 3:13 **fall** 65:5 69:19 82:2 82:4 84:19 119:5 119:9 123:2 170:8 **falls** 20:21 69:9 74:7 74:8 **familiar** 26:1 137:7 165:4 **family** 53:3 **fantastic** 97:6 **far** 59:4 77:13 79:14 97:7 121:1 123:19 145:6 154:13 191:4,5 193:16 **fast** 193:1 **favor** 40:13 **feasible** 36:16 **features** 170:9 **Federal** 2:3 5:13 65:12 **feedback** 8:15 15:11 76:7 135:10 147:1 167:18 168:18 170:19 178:12 **feeds** 176:5 **feel** 3:17 14:9 35:22 40:22 85:7 97:15 108:12 111:1 117:15 175:16 189:21 190:16

191:1 194:5 **feels** 23:20 183:9 **felt** 173:1 **fewer** 186:20 **field** 150:14 **fifth** 162:16 **figure** 6:11 14:9 36:12 37:4 52:17 134:13 **final** 41:21 48:1 156:8 **finalize** 62:16 121:13 **finalizing** 99:15 **find** 3:18 50:2 54:17 58:4 80:18 148:19 150:8 169:5 191:16,20 **finding** 122:1 **fine** 61:9 79:4,5 91:2 134:4 **first** 3:6 14:6,11 20:14 35:9 42:16 51:12 60:22 61:1 61:2,7 ,22 69:4,6 69:19 77:8,18,18 86:16 112:9,11 113:1 128:1 ,2 133:19,21 142:10 145:20 146:2,5 ,7 146:8,13 182:6 188:19 190:6,8 **fit** 13:10 48:1 71:18 71:18 107:18 124:8 148:21 **fits** 30:3 **five** 19:14 156:16 157:4 **fix** 66:7 74:18,19,21 **fixes** 66:4 **flexibility** 12:14 19:13 22:1 **flight** 99:7 142:10 186:4 **flights** 99:4,4 186:1 189:14 **float** 128:13 **floor** 53:9 **flow** 76:1 193:18 **foamed** 138:12 **focus** 111:10 **folks** 6:1 ,8,8,10 50:17 51:13 52:12 142:9 185:22 **follow** 15:16 18:14 103:15 142:4 144:14 163:15 164:7 **follow-up** 168:12 176:3 **followed** 163:7 **following** 45:8,13 84:18 94:20 **food** 65:2 **foolish** 132:11 **foot** 82:16 163:10 163:11 **forces** 88:15 **forego** 21:10 **Forgive** 109:19 **forgot** 32:17 **form** 13:7 18:20,21 46:10 182:5 **formal** 25:7 98:2,3 **formality** 97:21 **formalize** 100:5 **formally** 100:3 103:14 122:17 **Forrestal** 1:7 **forth** 157:3 **forward** 4:1 11:20 18:4 23:5 38:18 46:14 74:4,10 75:18,20 107:3 110:13 127:9 158:13 162:19 **four** 140:6 162:12 167:18 183:21 192:14,19 **fourth** 146:17 **frame** 136:13 **frameworks** 116:2 **free** 3:17 18:10 28:8 194:5 **free-standing** 161:9 162:14,14 **Freedom** 165:6 **freestanding** 160:4 161:1 166:5 ,11 **freezer** 101:12,13 101:13 ,16,19 102:8,9 129:11 ,16 130:2,22 137:11 137:16 138:14 148:7 ,16 154:1 **freezers** 28:11 ,11 ,12 47:2,2 101:6,9 103:1 126:16 127:11 ,18,19 128:4 129:22 130:6 133:1ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 202 135:19,19 136:1 ,1 150:21 161:6,6 166:8,8 182:20 192:2 **fresh** 139:2 155:22 **Friday** 191:19 **fridges** 67:15 ,16 68:7 **front** 127:11 **FTC** 70:9,10 **FTC's** 70:11 **fulfill** 15:20 **full** 124:13 161:1 ,10 162:14,15 163:18 163:20 166:5 ,10 176:12 177:3 185:19 **fun** 132:7 **function** 12:5 135:5 **functionality** 58:2 **functionally** 160:21 **fundamental** 57:20 57:21 **furnace** 39:2,3 ,4 **further** 75:14 78:21 159:9 171:1 **future** 74:18 **G gas**  112:15 **gather** 124:16 **gauge** 189:15 **GE** 2:9 5:7 50:5 72:14 86:19 104:9 150:4 151:11 152:10 153:7 173:6 176:17 178:15 180:13 **general** 27:5 28:18 53:21 149:8 158:21 182:3 **generally** 27:15 148:20,20 151:9,9 151:20 180:18 **generated** 40:1 **generically** 28:20 **George** 53:1 61:4,17 98:21 99:1 100:11 185:14 **getting** 14:22 15:10 23:18 24:12,13 54:8 68:16 99:6 107:8 124:12 134:15 141:7 156:4 179:5 193:3 **give** 7:9 20:15 25:7 41:9 50:14 74:17 85:21 98:15 100:17 110:14 132:7 142:22 143:8 156:18 175:17 177:9 191:1 **given** 30:12 47:5 48:12 49:12 80:3 108:11 112:11 114:16 155:6,15 170:21 171:8,12 182:2 185:3 192:18 **gives** 52:9 **giving** 81:19 133:17 158:9 160:7 178:19 **go** 3:13 8:21 9:2 10:20 11:21 17:3 20:14 24:21 29:19 29:22 30:7 40:19 41:10,19 42:15 48:20 51:8 52:22 55:16 60:19 61:18 69:6,21 70:14 76:8 77:6 79:18 83:10 91:6 98:20 103:19 108:7 ,22 110:11 113:17 119:22 120:14,21 122:19 124:16 129:15 131:9 133:21 136:2 141:14 142:18 ,19 151:18 154:19 155:9,17 ,19,21 157:7 158:2,16 169:13 170:10 171:1 ,15 176:1 182:10 183:15 184:21 187:11 189:14,19 **goal** 14:10 **goes** 11:19 41:16 75:3 112:18 131:5 144:8,9 154:13 166:6 191:4 **going** 3:4 8:4 9:12 11:18,21 12:15 13:7 ,15 ,20 14:2,3 14:4 16:12,13 17:13 ,14 18:4,17 26:12 38:18 39:5 39:11 40:20 46:13 53:10 55:10 56:2 67:8 70:10,12,14

74:6 75:15 76:20 77:1 ,17 80:4 82:2 95:7 98:5 ,12 99:6 100:12 101:5 107:2 117:16 119:4,7 120:18 121:13 122:2,11 122:15 124:4 128:20 129:2 134:5 140:5 141:5 144:12 151:19 153:20 154:20,22 155:1 ,20 158:2,7 158:13 ,15 162:19 166:19 167:5 171:15 177:5 181:22 182:7 184:4 186:3 188:8 189:11 ,15 191:3 ,3 191:8,11 ,14,20,22 192:13 ,17 193:4 **good** 3:1 ,20 8:15 12:13 38:16 61:16 69:10 93:4 95:20 96:16 104:13 111:8 119:11 155:16 157:20 158:3 159:3 166:14 169:15 178:11 ,18 187:2 193:12 **goods** 43:6 **gotten** 9:5 86:9 140:4 **grab** 25:6 185:22 **great** 86:4 98:17 130:21 149:13 153:1 160:5 167:17 170:18 174:9 185:3 **green** 117:15 118:1 **grid** 92:2 **group** 1:3 2:19 8:4 8:21 11:3 14:1 19:5 ,16 20:12 21:22 23:17 ,20 27:14 32:4,7 35:2 35:7 36:6 41:13 41:16 42:5 ,15 51:14 52:1 ,6 53:5 53:9 55:1 62:17 64:11 ,12 75:6,14 102:7 122:17 125:5 128:18 129:20 141:4,7 144:4,16 145:6

147:2 162:9 164:15 165:22 167:9,10,14 181:15 183:9 191:13 ,18,21 193:17 ,20 **group's** 8:15 15:11 160:5 170:18 178:11 **grouping** 47:1 **groups** 47:19 52:12 53:13 160:6 167:8 **guess** 22:12 24:11 40:21 41:4,15 42:3 ,20 44:4 45:8 46:18 53:8 55:1 55:12,20 56:12 58:7 75:13 84:2 90:5 ,12 92:21 103:2 112:3 ,9,22 115:4,20,21 116:2 117:3 122:13 124:2 127:7 135:3 140:8 147:12 149:18 155:13 156:15 167:17 168:8 171:22 177:19 178:3 **guessing** 50:16 77:20 135:13 **guidance** 48:14 **guys** 24:8 40:17 57:21 107:22 126:11 164:2 **H Hagerman**  2:6 5:12 5:12,22,22 7:11 7:11 8:18 10:3 12:17 ,17 15:18,18 17:9,10 19:2,2,15 20:4,13 24:5 25:4 25:5 27:8,9 38:3 47:4 49:8,18 50:11 51:11 ,11 ,21 52:8 53:21 56:12 56:22 57:6,11 58:16 59:19,21 60:17 66:5 ,16 77:3 ,6 78:15 79:3 80:20 84:17 85:4 85:19 88:16 89:6 89:9,16 92:3 ,15 93:4 94:18 97:12 97:15 98:5 ,15 101:9,15 ,19

111:13 116:7 119:1 ,1 120:10,19 120:22 121:14,14 121:17 ,21 123:11 123:15 124:17 126:2,8 127:22 128:6,10,14,19 132:10,10 133:18 133:18 134:11 ,11 135:16 136:9 137:6,14 139:14 140:21 142:8 143:14 144:19 146:1 ,9,12,16,20 147:3 151:8 ,17 ,20 155:5 ,5 156:21 157:12,16,16,20 160:6 161:18 163:15 ,17 164:2 165:3 ,12 166:15 167:6 175:15 ,15 181:5 ,5 ,21 184:8 184:8 185:17 186:9 188:6,18 189:2,13 ,22 190:16,21 192:16 192:16 193:1 ,9 194:2 **Haier** 4:8 **Haler** 2:17 **half** 9:6 63:16 113:1 121:15 ,18 147:17 **hammer** 127:10 **hand** 70:14,14 **handled** 136:5 **hands** 165:2 **handy** 173:20 **hang** 51:17 99:12 **happen** 12:15 35:8 90:19 141:14 147:2 149:20 **happened** 32:12 188:6 **happening** 175:6 **happens** 68:15 76:1 122:16 **happy** 35:20 52:1 62:17 114:2 **hard** 49:20,22 50:18 50:21 51:4 86:12 170:14 183:12 190:3 **harmonized** 20:21 **hashed** 127:13 **hate** 27:21 186:2ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 203 **head** 42:22 43:9 120:16 137:13 ,16 151:6 **headed** 126:17 **heads** 37:15 115:1 152:5 **hear** 27:11 39:7 40:18 160:5 194:3 **heard** 24:16 116:8 160:16 175:10 186:10 **hearing** 3:9 **Hearth** 30:12 **heaters** 112:16 **held** 38:15 **help** 15:20 51:7 60:17 71:7 ,10 72:18 74:18 131:7 162:22 172:5 ,7 **helpful** 41:3 73:20 105:9 **helps** 54:22 **Hermosillo** 4:7 ,7 **hey** 7:4 61:17 **hi** 27:3 **high** 158:5 ,6 **higher** 167:17 173:1 181:13 **highlight** 90:6 **historical** 169:5 **history** 37:22 112:10 **hit** 77:14 **hits** 155:16 **Hoffman** 3:1 ,2 4:2 5:17 7:18 18:13 18:14 27:2 50:4 82:19 83:1 ,7 93:20 94:9 96:11 **hold** 17:9 49:15 89:16 171:12 188:6 **holding** 61:3 **hole** 47:16 163:8,14 **home** 2:9,10 48:2 65:9,13 84:15 90:3 **homes** 138:10 **homework** 122:12 122:15 154:22 156:19 166:20 191:4 193:2 **homework's** 166:16 **Hon** 2:13 4:17 ,17 14:14,14 15:14 16:22,22 17:12 26:9,9 39:10,10

39:21 ,21 40:10,10 47:9,9 48:17 49:4 49:14 50:3 63:20 63:20 64:12,20,20 65:19 66:9,18 67:19,19 68:10,14 68:19 70:3 ,3 ,6 71:12,16,17 ,22 74:15 ,15 77:22,22 78:8 82:12,12 90:18,18 101:5 ,5 101:11 ,11 ,17 102:12,12 112:13 112:13 127:17 ,17 131:2 133:9,9,13 134:3 ,3 137:13 138:15 ,15 148:18 **honest** 29:13 119:11 175:16 **honestly** 163:8 **hoops** 30:15 **hope** 3:11 107:12 **hopefully** 6:17 9:8 129:6,13 158:5 ,20 193:20 **hoping** 48:13 **horse** 7:2 13:1 **horses** 53:19,22 174:5 **Hoshizai** 2:18 **Hoshizaki** 4:15 95:4 96:15 138:8 139:9 139:20 141:11 **hotels** 43:3 **hour** 157:11 ,12 158:2 **hours** 157:2 173:10 178:21 179:4,6 **how's** 186:14 **huddle** 8:21 109:17 **hurried** 99:19 **hybrid** 60:9,11 76:2 110:1 121:12,18 121:19 122:7 123:22 130:12,17 132:2 147:6,16 148:11 149:6,7 150:6 191:8 **hybrids** 43:2 101:2 134:20 135:8 136:2 142:20 147:14 149:11 **I ice**  37:11 ,11 ,15 38:6 38:10 101:10,12 129:16 132:7 ,22 133:1 ,3 ,15 134:17 134:19 135:6,7 ,20 136:2,5 ,17 ,20,21 137:1 ,2,3 ,9,11 ,16 137:17 ,21 138:2,4 138:5 ,9,11 ,17 ,18 138:18 ,22 139:2,3 139:4,16 140:5 ,17 140:17 ,22 141:2,6 142:11 ,19 143:7 ,9 144:7 ,9,11 ,14,17 144:22 145:6,14 158:22 191:21 **icemaker** 101:16 **idea** 7:9 53:17 56:5 121:17 150:11 ,20 153:5 **ideally** 25:22 34:15 **ideas** 54:22 69:18 74:12 **identical** 41:18 **identically** 32:8 **identified** 191:5 **identifies** 27:21 **identify** 191:18 **identifying** 98:10 **ii** 14:16 **imagine** 75:12 137:15 **impact** 59:1 74:4 162:4 **impacted** 110:8 **impacting** 74:9 **impede** 74:13 **impeding** 73:22 **implemented** 19:18 41:18 **implications** 44:18 108:11 109:11 110:15 **important** 141:21 148:9 185:4 **improve** 34:10 54:6 133:6 **improvement** 114:19 **include** 9:10,12,17 9:20 10:5 ,7 16:10 18:18 24:18 31:9 60:15 72:1 80:17 80:19 106:1 109:1 117:19 122:10 128:21 133:1 138:1 144:22 177:6

**included** 14:7 23:9 26:3 31:19 57:18 88:22 89:4 104:2 114:12 118:18 121:20 136:18 144:7 145:7 ,21 146:2,3 152:19 172:12 180:9 **includes** 23:14 49:11 80:15 136:21 148:2,5 **including** 10:4 78:11 103:18 108:19 120:19 145:6 176:18 **inconsistent** 172:22 **incorporate** 124:6 **increased** 172:21 **Independence** 1:8 **independent** 63:15 **independent's** 167:9 **independently** 63:11 **independents** 167:12 **indicate** 138:4 **individual** 100:2 **industry** 44:1 ,1 174:12 **inequity** 149:19 **inform** 158:13 **information** 40:6 48:5 50:19 59:9 65:3 123:8 124:15 124:18 ,20 125:19 126:12 162:21 164:11 ,14,15 165:6,14 169:1 ,3 169:6,13 171:20 175:18 ,20 182:2 191:15 192:1 ,2,9 192:11 ,13 **informed** 110:14 **inherently** 17:21 36:2 40:2 49:6 93:6 **initial** 24:8 129:21 **initially** 28:12 143:7 **input** 75:11 83:19 84:5 85:11 91:9 94:5 ,13 95:22 112:2,14 113:18 116:18 117:1 118:5 120:1 **instance** 29:4 39:3

45:5 **insulated** 138:13 **integral** 10:2 25:15 56:13 ,15 57:7 75:6 79:9 101:20 101:21 ,21 103:12 104:3 ,12 105:3 106:1 111:2,20 122:10 125:13 ,14 130:17 131:4,10 131:14 132:2 191:12 **integrated** 55:6,11 130:4 **intended** 84:9 90:9 149:19 175:2 **intending** 65:8 **intent** 9:10,10 11:2 14:6 15:19,20 25:22 41:1 60:1 67:10 68:13 72:6 85:12 87:7 91:8 95:13 113:21 119:16 172:13 175:4 **interested** 164:13 **interesting** 193:11 **internal** 152:15 176:22 **interpret** 68:5 87:8 88:20 **interpretation** 25:8 41:3 56:20 93:8 **interpreted** 85:10 **Intertek** 5:21 **intervention** 65:12 **introduce** 132:11 **introductions** 3:14 **inverter** 92:8 **invitation** 50:12 **involve** 68:22 **involved** 67:5 122:12 171:20 **involves** 69:1 **iron** 122:7 **irrespective** 56:8 58:3 **Isael** 4:7 **issue** 7:22 9:11 10:8 11:4,14 12:14 15:9 18:2 19:10 20:5 28:15 ,20 31:5 33:16,18 35:20 36:11 37:6 54:2 57:16 62:4,8ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 204 62:15 63:17 66:19 72:7 75:14 76:3 78:11 83:16 86:10 106:10 110:3 121:12 122:22 123:10,22 130:4 130:12 141:8 142:17 143:13 159:1 162:18 166:4 172:12,15 174:16 179:11 **issues** 15:13 19:3 44:9 110:1 127:13 130:17 132:17 155:21 158:11 169:16 172:7 176:15 ,15 **italics** 120:18 121:9 **item** 78:2 141:13 142:11 **J January**  132:17 **Javier** 2:3 4:4 96:5 143:3 144:19 157:13 158:1 166:15 172:9 185:2 193:2 **Jenn** 3:15 12:22 17:17 18:20 21:8 21:17 24:10,11 39:6,7 ,7 ,8 40:17 40:19 41:12 50:20 50:21 59:5 ,6 62:1 62:11 70:21 ,22 75:4,21 91:3 92:14 98:21 100:20,21 104:21 107:20,21 108:18 110:9 117:13 118:15 121:10,11 125:16,17 126:5 126:17 ,18 130:10 130:11 134:14 136:15 ,16 140:7 141:19,20 143:5 ,8 143:22 145:10 147:8,9 148:22 149:22 150:16 151:5 161:11 ,12 162:10 165:16,17 166:21 167:16 171:9,10 191:11 **Jenn's** 93:13 100:10 **Jennifer** 2:10 4:18 4:22 12:20 99:3 139:10

**jiu-jitsu** 134:13 **Joanna** 2:15 5:5 21:2 44:15 53:16 55:20 58:7 80:22 81:20 91:11 109:8 110:9 115:4 124:2 125:4,7 ,17 150:19 154:7 156:14 171:17 177:16 192:3 **Joanna's** 40:21 79:7 **Joe** 5:12,22 7:11 12:17 15:18 17:10 19:2 25:4 27:8 42:12,12 51:11 85:16 87:6 91:16 117:9 119:1 121:14 132:10 133:18 134:11 137:18 151:7 155:5 157:16 174:5 175:15 181:5 184:8 189:11 192:16 **Johanna** 35:19 **join** 51:9 **joint** 187:13 **Joseph** 2:6 **Judith** 2:21 5:18 **July** 186:15 ,16,19 188:2,7 ,9,19 189:16 **jump** 123:12 134:6 **jumping** 30:15 **June** 184:22 185:11 185:15 ,17 188:3 194:1 **jurisdiction** 65:15 **justification** 174:17 **justified** 185:10 **K keep**  6:5 43:17 100:12 112:5 137:8 138:12 139:13 150:22 158:6 174:6 176:22 177:1 194:7 **kept** 147:10 151:2 **key** 30:20 73:22 127:13 159:19,20 169:17 **kick** 31:18 **kids** 95:8 **kilowatt** 173:10 178:21 179:4,6 **kind** 7:13 13:2 14:19 21:8 24:14 24:15 25:7 27:10 37:7 ,12 39:20 43:11 46:8 58:9 58:18 81:21 82:3 133:2 138:13 150:20 153:14 159:9,12 160:19 161:4 165:19 169:5 170:8 172:17 176:4 **kitchen** 90:1 **knew** 186:3 **knock** 97:11 **know** 6:16 9:9 11:13 11:15 ,17 ,18,22 12:3 ,7 ,8 13:11 ,16 13:21 ,22 19:4,6,9 19:16 21:12,21 ,21 23:8 24:5 ,16 25:5 26:4 30:3 31:5 35:9,22 36:13 37:1 ,2,10,21 ,22 38:12,13 40:16 41:9,20 43:9 44:3 44:8 47:4,5 50:6,9 50:12,13 51:3 ,3 ,8 51:17 ,22 53:1 54:19 55:1 57:9 57:11 58:12,13 70:4,16,17 71:4,6 73:6,16 74:1 ,5 75:10 76:6 83:19 89:13 ,14 91:17 ,22 93:10,11 ,16 95:15 95:15 97:21 104:15 107:9,22 108:2,4,20 109:12 110:15 112:10 113:12,13 114:8 114:16 115:6,10 116:4 119:16 122:10 126:2,3 ,9 126:11 ,22 133:16 134:18 135:3 ,10 136:11 141:22 143:6 145:20 148:4 155:7 156:7 157:3 159:18 160:14,18 161:9 163:13 ,13 ,20,22 164:3 ,3 ,9,15 165:5 ,9 166:5 168:2,4,7 169:8

169:19 174:5 ,6,10 174:11 ,12,17 ,19 175:7 ,8,11 ,20 176:1 185:8,8 188:13 190:10 191:7 **knowing** 102:22 123:21 130:15 **knowledgeable** 135:17 **knows** 3:12 126:6 178:16 **Kuch** 2:14 5:3 ,3 76:9,9,14,17 99:8 169:9 184:13 189:8 **L L**  33:6,8,12 **labeling** 70:11 **Laboratory** 5:20 **lack** 139:11 **language** 11:10 78:21 86:14 89:12 96:20 101:4 105:3 106:1 ,2,5 112:5 113:4,5 116:18 117:14,20,22 118:1 ,1 ,2,3 119:19 122:3 ,6 131:10 **larger** 52:6 57:12 74:5 **latest** 96:2 **law** 39:19 41:8 44:11 ,12 49:7 **Lawrence** 5:19 **lawyers** 33:2 **layering** 139:13 **lead** 31:22 32:1 ,3 ,13 33:9,12,17 42:2 **leads** 43:20 **leave** 47:18 52:1 76:21 78:20 79:6 99:14 107:15 133:20 141:8 147:5 166:21 186:2 **leaves** 41:4 **leaving** 75:19 77:1 99:5 ,6 186:3 **left** 47:16 99:16 157:11 159:4 190:19 **legal** 18:22 29:14 34:8,18 35:17 36:15 37:6 44:10 48:6 **lenient** 65:7 **let's** 6:22 7:5 20:15 25:2 26:20 27:8 56:3 59:1 61:10 61:12 62:8,18,18 62:20 63:2 71:17 71:22 72:3 75:1 ,2 79:16,18 87:9 88:2,12 96:4,19 97:3 ,17 98:2,15 98:20 100:13 ,13 104:18 106:12 111:8,9 114:22 121:2,4 129:3 ,6,9 130:1 ,14 132:2 133:13 142:18 ,20 146:1 147:7 150:22 151:1 154:2 156:19 157:4,7 176:18 182:15 183:15 184:21 185:11 186:15 ,18 188:19 **letting** 8:16 104:7 **level** 35:14 36:17 ,18 54:9 87:16 158:5 158:6 167:18 187:9 189:5 ,15 191:10 **levels** 168:15 **lies** 29:2 **likewise** 190:4 **limit** 37:4 107:2 **limitation** 28:3 **limited** 17:21 107:17 **limiting** 21:18 **limits** 28:4 **line** 3:18 19:18,21 20:7 21:13 35:10 109:15 110:2 111:12,15 112:1 113:17 134:2,10 134:12 **lined** 183:21 **lining** 18:2 **list** 28:22 29:8 30:5 45:3 ,6 193:7 **listed** 29:3 31:3 ,4 32:21 44:3 46:1 **listening** 53:2 **listing** 67:1 **listings** 66:14ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 205 173:21 **little** 3:4 7:17 11:2 20:1 ,2 22:1 24:3 25:12 39:15 43:15 43:16 52:1 53:8 55:15 58:21 59:12 59:17 80:16 86:13 92:10 99:12,15 ,21 108:9,15 109:3 127:1 132:8 136:17 149:18 179:15 190:11 193:16,20 **live** 39:18 44:7 103:13 **loading** 172:15 **located** 54:19 **location** 131:19 **lock** 183:16 188:19 189:9 **locked** 79:15 **logic** 101:22 **logical** 116:11 **logically** 76:2 135:21 **logistical** 34:4,6 99:3 **long** 26:5 58:4 108:20 110:16 **long-term** 12:3 ,4 **longer** 123:7 **look** 3:22 21:1 32:14 35:12 39:21 49:12 59:2 61:7 ,10 69:3 79:19 83:10 86:16 96:3 100:14,20 111:8,20 120:18 124:11 129:14 130:19 135:10 141:12 142:22 147:7 150:18 161:8 176:18 183:16 184:3 ,6,21 185:11 ,12 186:18 190:15 191:8,11 **looked** 32:1 173:16 **looking** 15:10 16:11 23:5 47:11 ,14 58:11 60:22 80:11 83:12,21 95:3 ,5 ,5 95:13 ,17 ,17 96:17 97:20 104:14 105:9 116:14 136:14 138:10 153:9 165:13 166:9,10 173:8 185:15 ,18

**looks** 17:19 80:14 85:22 88:3 96:16 98:8 104:8 177:11 **loop** 85:13 ,15 **loopholes** 26:6 **loose** 92:20 **lose** 58:20 **lost** 29:16 157:12 158:1 168:4 **lot** 7:21 8:12,13 13:3 63:5 ,7 65:3 65:10 67:8 68:14 69:16 70:18 73:16 83:20,21 84:13 94:6 106:14 135:12 137:9 138:9,11 142:10 142:16 174:7 **lots** 4:21 65:4 95:6 187:19 **louder** 59:13 **love** 33:2 66:4 74:12 **low** 50:7 95:15 ,22 150:9 **lower** 81:17 **lowest** 178:4 **lucky** 122:14 **lumped** 163:2 **lunch** 97:9,11 ,16 98:5 ,6,12,14,19 103:6 113:10 117:14,18,21 118:17 119:19 **M m--**  47:3 **machine** 36:19 **magic** 128:10 **magnetic** 11:17 23:11 58:11 **main** 90:9 **maintain** 30:17 47:8 81:10,16,18 170:7 170:11 177:14,19 180:8,10,15 181:3 **maintaining** 81:7 81:22 94:5 ,15 152:11 173:15 ,16 176:14 178:1 **major** 70:18 **majority** 174:20 **maker** 129:16 132:22 136:22 137:21 138:4 142:19 158:22 **makers** 37:11 ,12

38:6,10 101:10,12 132:7 134:17 ,19 135:6,20 136:2,5 136:17 137:1 ,3 ,3 137:9 138:9 139:16 140:5 ,17 140:17 ,22 141:2,6 142:11 143:7 ,9 144:7 ,9,11 ,14,17 144:22 145:6,14 191:21 **making** 37:15 56:16 64:13 90:5 103:7 133:1 ,15 136:20 145:15 172:10 182:12 193:12 **manual** 115:10 **manufacture** 55:14 **manufacturer** 55:12 87:11 90:7 115:7 119:6 182:18 **manufacturers** 2:11 50:13 52:3 ,5 125:22 126:3 145:1 162:20 163:7 164:3 ,11 ,21 165:7 ,11 ,14 191:16 **Manufacturing** 2:13 4:17 14:14 63:20 112:13 **Marciniak** 2:20 4:11 ,11 42:20 66:14 73:4 80:13 82:17 ,17 86:1 ,8 99:9 **market** 49:20 55:16 55:22 58:10 65:8 65:14 72:7 73:9 124:8 127:21 164:4,14 173:4 **marketed** 65:1 69:11 ,22 72:2 83:5 160:18 **marketing** 72:6,9 **marketplace** 161:8 **Mary** 2:12 4:13 66:1 ,3 136:3 152:4 **material** 160:9 **matter** 68:15 76:6 **matters** 31:13 ,14 123:16 **Mauer** 2:15 5:5 ,5 21:2,16 35:19 44:16 45:8,12 55:20 58:7 91:11 109:8 115:4 124:2 125:7 ,12 150:19 156:15 171:17 177:17 192:5 **maximum** 3:6 36:16 179:22 **mean** 9:4,22 10:15 11:2 16:8 40:21 47:13 49:22 50:5 55:11 67:15 ,16 72:5 76:1 78:10 84:13 85:5 ,11 87:5 ,8,19 88:20 89:7 92:10 93:4 93:13 ,15 94:1 95:3 106:10,15 ,16 110:12 113:16 115:8,11 120:11 124:3 ,22,22 126:20 127:18 136:17 137:19 139:14 140:2,12 142:8 151:9,10 153:8 155:20 166:4,8 168:2 169:22 174:14,15 176:17 180:13 185:3 ,6 187:12 **meaning** 90:14 189:2 **means** 83:17 91:20 93:6 94:2 138:2,5 184:16,17 ,17 **meant** 57:7 **meat** 159:1 160:9 **mechanical** 60:20 **mechanically** 123:16 **Mediation** 2:3 5:14 **meet** 12:9,10 14:10 15:2 50:9 52:12 52:13 57:16 69:12 69:20 105:21 107:4 125:9 127:12 173:11 **meeting** 1:1 ,3 2:1 3:9 4:2 30:21 51:12 72:9 104:13 108:14 124:16 128:9 142:13 ,15 154:16,17 156:2 185:5 187:13 190:6,8 **meetings** 3:11 6:9

15:7 140:6 158:20 182:6 188:12 **meets** 30:1 ,4 46:15 56:21 69:7 106:16 **melt-off** 139:6 **melts** 139:1 **member** 4:18 5:1 53:5 ,5 **members** 4:19 51:7 108:5 ,8,8,10 124:20 125:21 165:19 166:1 167:10,11 **membership** 124:20 **mentioned** 5:15 6:3 13:17 54:2 58:11 83:4 161:13 164:17 **mentions** 181:13 **mere** 177:15 **merge** 33:20 **merged** 30:20 **mess** 66:22 **mic** 39:6 53:6 80:13 83:1 105:7 **Michigan** 187:14 **microphones** 31:7 **middle** 145:3 **Mike** 5:21 **mind** 27:5 62:9,11 137:8 155:22 **minds** 97:7 **minimum** 181:12 **minor** 76:10,15 **minute** 39:8 47:22 81:19 **minutes** 26:21 52:7 52:9 129:5 ,6 156:16 157:5 158:2 **miscellaneous** 1:2 10:14 12:1 31:6 140:13 **missed** 191:7 **misspoke** 179:15 **misunderstood** 46:7 **mobile** 84:22 87:13 89:17 ,20,22 90:2 91:19 93:1 ,7 94:22 **model** 133:14 **models** 174:10 **modification** 77:9 90:15 93:2 115:17 **modifications** 77:7ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 206 100:16 103:8 192:10 **modified** 192:11 **modify** 59:5 65:21 120:14 133:12 **mom's** 190:7 **moment** 32:19 74:22 79:19 85:21 100:17 107:8 126:19 129:4 142:22 **money** 67:9 **monster** 62:13 **month** 124:14 139:4 **morning** 3:1 ,20 11:13 105:16 108:4 109:4 113:18 ,20 126:6 142:7 171:8 175:10 **motivator** 98:7 **motors** 33:9 **mousetrap** 119:15 **Mouw** 4:10,10 22:5 23:4 63:9 83:15 84:11 85:1 ,8,15 87:4 88:4,6,18 89:8,11 ,18 90:11 91:14 92:18 96:5 96:10 110:18 111:5 ,22 112:20 113:8 114:5 115:19 117:3 ,22 118:8,20 119:20 120:16 137:18 143:3 146:6,11 ,13 146:18 ,22 **move** 6:22 7:5 25:8 68:6 75:13 ,18 76:2 110:13 126:14 139:17 189:18 **moved** 161:20,22 **moves** 22:12 **moving** 22:20 32:3 68:17 74:9 75:20 123:16 **MREF** 57:12 74:5 ,9 75:7 132:16 **multi-levels** 74:17 **multiple** 23:8,14 146:1 **muted** 99:3 **mutually** 146:9 **N NAECA**  28:1 ,6

**name** 11:17 103:12 131:6 **names** 50:15 51:14 187:19 **Nate** 22:4,6 23:4 63:9 83:15 84:11 85:1 ,8 88:18 89:18 90:11 91:11 91:14 92:18 110:18 111:21 ,22 112:20 113:8 114:5 115:19 117:2,3 118:1 119:20 137:18 146:6 150:1 **Nathan** 4:10 83:14 86:16 87:3 88:1 **National** 5:20 **natural** 112:15 **naturally** 164:4 **Navigant** 2:21 ,22 5:11 ,18 7:12,21 9:15 15:6 22:16 23:16 25:21 81:9 82:6,14 102:2 122:20 124:10 126:21 132:15 152:18 155:17 158:9 159:6 164:17 165:4,18 165:21 166:17 167:13 ,13 181:21 181:22 190:2 191:14 **NCR's** 180:19 **NDA** 164:18 165:5 **necessarily** 28:10 30:19 65:11 74:9 168:5 169:22 **necessary** 8:14 101:12 112:11 120:4 **need** 8:19 20:11 ,19 24:14 25:5 26:20 30:17 50:14 57:11 59:5 60:9 62:2,7 64:19,21 67:11 71:10 75:17 ,21 80:20 83:1 ,13 84:6 85:15 88:7 99:12,14 103:11 108:1 109:1 111:20 115:18 119:10 127:4 130:7 133:11 148:8,19 154:7 ,11

154:15 155:8,10 155:13 158:17 164:10 166:9 183:19 188:3 189:19 **needed** 73:7 120:9 **needs** 59:16 84:12 120:10 144:4 148:10 **neg** 31:22 **negating** 40:22 **negative** 58:18 **negotiate** 59:10 140:16 144:5 **negotiated** 3:2 167:7 **negotiating** 37:8 **negotiation** 32:12 34:20 35:17 38:18 42:10 75:7 ,22 78:12 144:3 ,5 ,7 144:13 **negotiations** 74:9 **neutral** 58:1 **never** 18:11 151:13 178:20 179:9 **new** 6:2 11:20 29:20 32:7 ,20 33:3 ,5 113:19 123:16,17 139:7 141:15 168:20 **nice** 167:3 194:3 **niceties** 29:14 **niche** 26:5 **night** 6:5 7:12 **nod** 151:6 **nodding** 152:5 **non-chilled** 138:22 **non-compressor** 8:1 8:8 13:5 ,8 15:22 16:6 17:18,20 18:8 21:4 22:6,7 22:13 23:1 ,6,9 24:18 25:14,19 26:14,19 27:15 30:18 32:8 34:11 36:1 ,7 ,17 ,20 47:6 47:15 ,17 49:15 ,19 54:4,12 63:12,15 80:5 ,9 81:3 ,9 98:12 100:12 101:18 ,19 102:4,5 102:6,8 103:1 104:5 107:16 108:17 109:6 122:3 123:6,21

124:5 126:16 127:11 129:11 ,15 129:22 130:2,22 134:20 135:8 159:11 161:14,19 161:21 162:16 170:4 172:15 177:18 179:16 180:4,19 183:3 192:1 **non-compressors** 47:1 **non-condensing** 39:4 **non-integral** 25:17 25:20 54:2,4 56:7 79:12 107:14,15 108:19 109:6 110:20 111:2,11 124:6 128:22 192:6,7 **non-integrated** 54:5 54:13 ,17 55:7 **non-italics** 101:3 **nonsensical** 32:16 **NOPR** 8:4 102:3 132:12,16 141:14 144:9 153:8 170:3 172:6,12 **normally** 54:21 **Norman** 193:19 **note** 15:16 22:5 78:2,22 130:3 ,9 192:17 193:9 **noticed** 129:18 **notwithstanding** 165:15 **NRA** 187:12,13 **NRA's** 187:16 **NSF** 65:1 132:19 133:10 187:13 ,17 **NSF/ANSI** 133:15 **number** 8:9 9:9 24:22 59:11 ,16,18 60:5 62:20,21 63:1 ,2,3 ,10,18,19 64:22 66:10 69:10 71:15 ,16,21 75:2 77:9,10 78:2,10 102:15 148:18 ,19 173:13 176:18 **numbers** 36:11 40:1 165:8 **O o'clock**  52:9,19

99:12 142:9 155:16 157:14,15 185:21 ,21 ,22 186:5 **object** 61:18 110:12 110:17 **observations** 140:19 **observed** 81:5 181:2 **obvious** 114:20 173:13 **obviously** 12:12 29:2 39:18 69:18 71:1 74:12 100:19 130:4 155:20 176:19 177:4 **odds** 20:1 ,3 22:11 **offer** 8:18 **office** 28:19 158:22 **official** 142:10 **oh** 5:16 38:9 76:16 96:12 **okay** 4:2 10:6 19:20 20:6 21:16 23:4 35:18 40:20 44:15 46:17 49:14 51:18 52:21 53:7 56:22 59:14 61:2,4,8,10 61:12,19,21 62:19 62:21 63:1 ,3 ,19 70:5 71:9 75:1 ,15 76:20 77:8,9,13 79:14,18 80:1 ,8 80:11 ,22 82:8 83:12 85:22 86:8 86:14,18 96:10,13 96:20 98:20 99:2 99:2 100:6,8,10 101:3 102:22 104:20 105:8 106:8 118:15 120:22 121:3 ,3 ,9 122:8 123:19,20 124:1 126:13 ,14 127:16 128:5 129:9 130:1 ,21 ,22 131:4,22 132:3 ,7 142:18 146:20 147:4 149:12 152:4,6 153:1 154:2 157:20 166:14 168:8,10 184:5 ,6,7 185:14 187:3 ,21 189:9 192:22 **old** 139:4,6ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

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**once** 20:21 23:18 30:16 46:12 48:10 145:2 191:3 **one-time** 64:15 **ones** 82:13 93:11 156:11 160:22 **ongoing** 51:15 75:9 **online** 61:5 ,6 187:9 **open** 9:7 28:16 39:5 50:11 53:9 69:18 115:11 129:2 167:20 183:17 **opening** 3:14 **openings** 172:14 177:15 **operate** 92:6,9 117:11 154:20 167:15 **operating** 94:3 ,12 113:10,11 114:9 114:15 115:10 118:4,11 156:14 **operation** 172:14 **opinion** 43:2 67:18 119:11 127:22 **opinions** 74:12 **opportunities** 90:6 **opportunity** 25:18 26:7 53:19 108:7 185:7 **opposed** 39:16 **opposing** 168:3 **option** 21:6 54:6,19 57:4 178:4 **options** 21:4 22:10 22:21 23:7 ,13 176:9 **order** 20:11 75:18 83:14 **original** 75:4 77:10 106:5 122:5 **originally** 105:5 ,10 **Orman** 2:17 4:8,8 184:16 **other-type** 31:2 **outcome** 34:20 35:7 48:7 58:10 **outdoor** 67:15 ,16,22 68:6,7 70:17 **outlet** 90:1 **outlets** 95:16 **outlook** 129:2 **outside** 30:7 66:19 66:22 67:2 82:4 **overall** 110:20 **overnight** 13:19 **P**

**package** 90:7 **page** 152:3 **pages** 80:7 **Panel** 61:3 62:22 63:4 79:17 ,22 97:4 142:21 152:1 **paragraph** 29:21 33:8 **parallel** 14:16 17:5 17:9,10,14 34:14 **parameters** 41:9 **parent** 4:20 42:15 **park** 58:18 **parking** 142:10 **Parsons** 53:2 61:6,9 61:20 99:1 **part** 10:2 11:16 40:13 46:1 ,4,9,12 46:13 47:14 56:15 57:7 62:1 65:13 77:17 79:2 96:7 98:8 103:9 104:3 104:15 105:4 106:2 110:21 111:20 112:11 121:3 ,9 126:1 131:10,14 132:20 134:21 155:18 161:15 **partial** 191:22 **participate** 50:14 185:8 **participating** 187:9 **participation** 4:1 **particular** 14:17 28:20 30:1 67:7 **particularly** 132:19 **parties** 23:12 **partly** 118:3 **pass** 7:8 **paste** 131:13 ,13 **pasted** 99:20 **patching** 12:8 **path** 42:22 43:12 144:14 **pause** 8:17 69:17 70:5 **pay** 12:19 64:4 66:5 **penciled** 159:9 **pending** 78:22 **people** 8:20 27:9 43:22 51:3 52:10 52:10 58:19 72:7 74:1 ,11 99:5 114:2 140:22 154:8 155:13

185:7 **percentage** 122:1 147:17 ,19 149:20 153:4 191:9 **perception** 43:4 **perfectly** 29:13 **perform** 177:7 181:14 **performance** 38:20 43:5 54:7 193:19 **performing** 193:19 193:21 **period** 56:8 **perishable** 43:6 **permanently** 87:9 87:18,21 88:10 89:1 90:13 ,13 ,20 114:14 118:10 **person** 3:22 127:10 **personal** 73:18 **personally** 110:12 **perspective** 73:13 108:5 119:6 141:13 **perspectives** 143:5 **phase** 94:4 113:11 113:11 114:9 116:17 ,22 118:4 **phone** 39:7 51:13 98:22 154:15 155:13 185:8 **phrase** 90:13 112:7 112:7 ,10 113:21 113:22,22 **physical** 55:12 **pick** 99:16 **picking** 7:3 **piece** 12:8 24:9 26:19 68:2 97:8 121:2,4 **pieces** 15:22 65:3 96:8,17 138:19 **place** 14:6,12 76:22 89:5 172:17 181:16 **placement** 28:3 **places** 24:12 **plane** 189:14 **Play** 95:9 **players** 51:5 **please** 3:17 50:14 191:1 **pleased** 3:21 **plenty** 110:8 166:21 **plug** 84:14 90:9,22 90:22 93:16,17 115:9,10 **plug-in** 84:10 **plugged** 83:22 90:1 91:15 ,21 92:2 **plugs** 84:1 ,14 **plus** 89:9 **point** 7:14 15:12 16:1 25:8,12 35:17 ,17 37:8 40:22 45:2 55:11 55:13 93:4,13 99:22 102:19 110:10 122:21 123:6 136:4 155:8 155:18 158:3 159:12 168:14 174:2 175:3 176:4 178:9 181:8,10 185:2,19 187:8 188:16 193:15 **points** 14:15 148:18 193:4 **pop** 152:20 **portable** 86:20 87:14 137:22 **portion** 17:5 49:7 60:9,11 120:6 **posed** 27:7 **position** 10:20 19:12,16 41:19,22 142:13 143:9,20 144:1 145:1 **positive** 174:2 **possibility** 58:16 65:10 80:15 **possible** 10:12 15:20 17:19 24:20 47:3 102:9 107:5 125:8 138:16 148:7 150:9 185:6 **possibly** 125:4 159:21 179:13 **post** 10:14 158:9 **postpone** 122:6 **potential** 21:4 26:6 178:3 179:21 **potentially** 54:8 192:21 **power** 7:14 65:7 84:1 ,2,3 86:22 87:9,10,21 ,22 88:10,12,21 ,21 89:2,3 ,21 90:9,16 90:21 91:20 95:3 95:5 ,7 99:22 117:6 118:10,13

119:3 155:18 **powered** 84:16 91:13 ,14 **powerful** 98:6 **pre-emption** 31:15 31:16 **pre-rinse** 29:5 **preclude** 65:11 **preempted** 47:22 **preemption** 44:17 44:21 45:1 ,4,7 ,12 45:20 46:2,4,14 47:20 48:9 **preliminary** 22:9,19 82:9 159:14,16 162:6,8 163:1 168:14 176:6 **prepared** 156:1 188:12 **present** 158:16 175:21 184:16 **presented** 44:2 116:10 170:3 **presenting** 123:17 **pressure** 190:3 **pretty** 11:10 14:17 20:18,22 26:4 50:17 58:5 95:20 97:20 132:21 165:3 172:11 173:13 175:11 176:2 181:6 **prevent** 16:5 **previous** 15:7 24:21 25:1 180:9 182:2 **primarily** 106:21 **principal** 168:5 **prior** 89:12 112:6,8 119:19 155:2 **private** 23:21 **probably** 12:13 15:12 26:14 51:18 52:15 70:14 77:14 78:20 86:12 93:6 93:8 114:3 116:9 119:11 120:6 131:16 135:12 154:17 155:1 157:9 158:4 163:22 164:15 169:10,11 187:11 188:17 **problem** 10:17 15:17 17:1 45:21 46:19 53:18 74:16ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 208 74:19 99:17 100:11 139:21 179:7 **problematic** 140:14 **problems** 17:16 92:3 ,4 175:9 **procedurally** 142:5 154:18 **procedure** 8:3 102:3 132:12,16 136:18 137:5 139:16 140:10 143:12,15 152:18 154:9 155:17 159:2 169:15 172:6,12 178:16 183:1 ,1 **procedures** 16:2 44:3 156:4 158:17 **proceeding** 18:9 **process** 22:2 45:17 51:9 75:9,22 97:8 98:10 109:13 126:1 161:4 190:1 **product** 10:21 12:6 12:9 14:5 15:2 22:20,22 23:14 24:2,7 26:5 ,11 28:9 29:10 30:1 ,9 30:10,11 ,12,17 ,21 31:1 ,2,16 32:7 33:4,5 34:13 38:17 ,18,19 39:2 40:4,6,9 41:1 43:18 44:22 45:1 45:16,19,20 46:1 46:16,20 47:12 48:1 ,8,21 55:22 56:17 ,21 57:22 58:3 64:8,13 ,22 68:7 69:5 ,6,8,13 70:8 71:3 72:1 ,2 72:11 ,15 ,15 ,17 ,19 72:21 73:1 ,3 ,9,15 79:10 84:3 86:20 87:8,11 ,12 88:20 88:22 89:2,21 90:14,19 92:22 95:14,22 101:14 102:15 106:21 114:8,11 ,13 ,15 115:6 117:5 ,10,11 117:12 118:9,13 124:12,18 125:6 125:19,22 127:2 128:2 133:3 134:19 136:21 137:15 ,19 138:4

139:2,3 ,6,7 ,21 ,22 148:2,4 158:4,15 159:8,15 ,22 160:4 161:5 ,15 162:2,3 162:12,16 163:3 167:19 168:4,7 ,13 168:17 ,20 169:7 170:9 177:11 ,12 178:19,20 179:3 ,6 179:12 180:1 ,5 ,14 182:3 ,15 ,18 183:6 183:7 **product's** 43:5 **product-to-product** 172:22 **products** 8:1 ,8,11 9:11 ,16,18 13:5 ,8 14:11 15:8 16:14 16:17 21:7 ,19 25:16 26:2 27:22 28:8,9,13 ,15 ,22 28:22 29:3 ,4,8,20 30:6 31:9,12,20 32:14,20 33:21 34:1 35:22 36:2,3 40:3 41:17 45:3 45:10 49:21 50:1 50:6,8,12 54:8 57:16 58:1 67:17 69:10 70:8 71:2,7 76:2,4 78:4 83:4 83:10,20 84:13 ,19 84:20 87:17 ,20 88:8,10 89:4 91:13 ,15 ,18,21 92:20 93:15 94:20 94:21 98:10 102:10 104:10 105:17 ,19 106:11 108:19 110:2 114:4,17 116:19 117:8,19 123:1 124:7 ,13 126:21 127:20 128:3 133:4 135:6,20 136:10 137:10 140:11 ,14 144:10 147:15 ,18 148:1 149:21 152:8 161:9,14 162:22 164:4 166:7 168:6 169:22 170:12,20 171:21 ,21 173:2,3 173:7 ,22 174:15 174:20 175:1 ,2,7 175:11 176:7

177:9 180:7 ,10,12 181:2,14 183:12 **program** 34:6 156:22 **progress** 70:2 73:22 74:4,13 193:13 **project** 2:15 5:6 44:21 47:14 **propane** 112:15 ,18 112:22 **proposal** 24:6 87:16 107:22 108:21 109:3 146:22 147:11 ,22 149:3 151:16,18 152:19 157:1 161:16 167:3 170:3 172:1 177:21 179:16 180:7 ,9 **propose** 21:12,14 41:20 69:16 78:15 180:6 **proposed** 8:2 105:6 106:5 132:15 ,21 137:20 139:15 145:9 147:13 ,21 149:1 ,16 157:22 170:19 181:10 183:2 **proposing** 14:11 21:11 91:5 102:4 111:3 ,6 161:17 179:10 186:22 **provide** 6:12 75:11 125:18 164:8 165:18 ,20,21 175:13 177:13 191:22 192:9,12 **provided** 6:15 38:21 117:9 **provides** 12:4 48:14 116:16 **provision** 27:20 29:7 31:15 32:18 33:3 94:19 **provisions** 33:11 ,13 133:20 152:20 **public** 1:1 3:19 15:7 43:1 ,4,7 51:12 119:13 143:17 ,17 143:20 144:1 155:12,12 183:18 190:18 191:1 **publicly** 164:20 **pull** 7:15 81:12 95:8 132:13 184:5

**pulled** 132:12 **pulling** 74:4 122:17 157:8 **pulls** 8:2 **pumps** 31:22 32:2 32:12,21 33:4,9 **purely** 48:6 147:16 **purpose** 30:3 33:7 41:7 **purposes** 30:15 170:1 **purposing** 8:16 **pursued** 135:1 ,2 **push** 11:1 19:4 37:7 143:7 **put** 10:14 29:7 32:18 33:3 38:11 38:12 46:22 55:4 56:4 75:1 ,12 76:12,21 ,22 80:6 88:16 91:4 92:16 95:18 102:15 ,18 103:4 104:18 105:18 111:10 122:4 126:15 130:9 134:8,13 149:10 150:9 151:13 172:6 179:4 186:11 **puts** 147:6 **putting** 24:8 29:7 94:16 127:1 149:9 **Q quadrupled**  172:18 **question** 12:2 15:21 18:13 21:3 27:6 34:18,18,19 36:13 37:2 38:3 ,17 39:22 41:7 42:2 43:20 45:15 48:17 53:22 55:2,21 61:1 67:13 70:4 70:16 79:7 81:1 81:20 86:19 87:7 88:19 92:22 103:11 109:11 112:3 ,9 116:2 121:15 125:18 126:7 ,14 128:19 145:2,10,12,13 ,15 145:21 146:14,15 146:17 ,17 ,19,21 151:8 160:12 164:7 166:4 168:13 173:12

176:4 182:14 **questions** 7:6 9:1 43:11 44:14 48:15 55:11 61:11 63:2 68:14 70:19 80:12 105:1 146:2,10 158:18 167:4 **quick** 18:13 25:4 60:18 67:14 81:13 84:17 97:13 129:3 145:2 151:8 157:22 158:5 172:9 182:14 **quickly** 130:3 169:15 **quite** 15:10 32:11 43:1 71:10 80:5 86:10 112:14 141:17 153:3 163:1 ,8 174:12 **R rabbit**  119:21 **rain** 67:5 73:6 **raises** 109:11 **raising** 147:10 **Ramirez** 2:3 4:4,4 5:15 6:3 8:16 9:1 12:20 14:13 15:21 16:21 20:8,10 22:4 24:10 25:2,9 26:8,17 27:1 ,4 37:9 39:5 40:19 42:12,17 44:13 46:21 48:11 50:16 51:6,16 52:4,11 52:21 54:21 58:22 59:12 60:11 ,21 61:4,7 ,10,15 ,21 62:8,13 ,18 63:1 ,5 63:18 64:10,18 65:17 ,20 66:4,7 67:11 70:5 ,21 71:9,14 72:3 ,12 72:22 74:14 75:1 75:15 76:7 ,12,16 76:20 77:5 ,7 78:6 79:4,13 ,18 80:1 ,8 80:22 81:19 83:12 84:9 85:13 ,17 ,20 86:5 ,9 87:3 88:1 ,5 89:12 90:17 91:3 91:10 93:10,19 94:8,16 95:2 96:2 96:7 ,14,17 97:2,5ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 209 97:14,17 ,20 98:2 98:6,17 ,20 99:2 99:10 100:10 101:3 102:1 ,17 ,22 103:8,21 104:7 ,18 104:21 105:2,7 106:4,8 107:20 108:16 109:5 ,14 110:22 111:7 ,14 111:19 112:12 113:6,15 114:22 115:15 116:20 117:2 118:6 119:18 120:9,13 120:17 ,21 121:1 122:2 123:14,19 125:2,16 126:13 127:3 ,16 128:5 ,7 128:12,17 129:1 ,9 129:20 130:9,14 130:21 131:3 ,7 ,12 131:16,19,22 132:6 133:8,11 134:8,14 135:14 136:15 138:6 139:8,19 140:7 ,19 141:10,19 142:5 142:18 145:4,17 146:5 147:4 148:12,17 149:4 149:12,15 150:16 151:7 ,19,21 152:6 153:2,18,20 154:5 154:13 ,18 156:6 156:17 157:4,7 ,14 160:11 161:11 163:4 164:10 165:1 ,10,16 166:2 166:14,19 167:21 168:10,22 169:12 171:9 172:4 173:5 174:3 177:16 178:14 181:20 182:13 183:15 184:12,19 185:11 185:18 186:8,13 187:15 ,18,20 188:8,13 ,16,20 189:4,9,20 190:13 190:18 191:3 192:7 ,22 193:3 ,15 194:6 **ran** 91:1 159:18 **range** 81:4 **ranged** 82:10 **ranges** 65:4 **rate** 177:3

**rates** 12:19 **rating** 177:10 178:19 179:19 180:2 182:17 183:3 **rationale** 166:9 **re-carving** 123:11 **re-craft** 7:13 **re-mention** 165:13 **reach** 50:14 144:8 154:20 165:10 178:5 180:5 **reacting** 89:19 **read** 8:17 20:16 28:21 29:9 41:8 85:10,17 89:19 91:16 100:17 116:20 132:8 143:18 152:3 158:21 **reading** 87:1 135:13 142:21 152:1 **reads** 84:2 **ready** 24:20 59:17 103:17 ,18 122:19 **real** 25:4 58:12 60:18 67:14 81:13 84:17 97:13 106:10 157:22 158:5 172:8 **realistic** 185:20 **realistically** 36:22 **realize** 7:1 148:1 **really** 6:6 11:6,9 13:1 ,19 18:11 19:10 26:1 ,2 35:17 44:10 50:6 50:7 54:13 59:10 64:21 68:1 70:1 74:6 76:5 88:3 99:17 107:5 108:3 126:19 140:4 145:11 ,15 159:7 161:7 170:16 174:21 185:4 188:11 193:11 ,21 **realm** 30:16 36:10 **reason** 35:11 91:12 92:15 95:17 104:17 138:15 160:14 161:3 180:11 **reasoning** 132:20 **reasons** 18:22 23:22 31:13 95:6 138:16 171:13 178:18

**recall** 22:6,7 ,9 149:4 **recap** 77:3 **recapture** 102:14 **receive** 171:2 **received** 75:10 159:17 162:8 **recommend** 144:17 155:9 **recommendation** 19:5 ,17 ,22 20:2 42:4,13 ,18 125:5 **recommends** 41:16 **reconvene** 160:10 182:12 **record** 27:3 ,3 56:3 100:5 151:5 166:16 168:3 174:9 194:3 ,9 **recreational** 84:21 94:22 **red** 60:4,10 94:7 **reduce** 129:13 **redundant** 85:7 113:1 120:5 **refer** 104:4 **reference** 56:17 **referring** 32:13 ,15 **refers** 32:16 **refine** 148:8 **refining** 190:1 **reflect** 36:18 **reflects** 7:16 107:5 **refocus** 7:6 53:11 **refreshing** 139:5 **refrigerated** 9:6 47:2 135:19 136:1 **refrigerating** 148:4 **refrigeration** 1:2 11:17 12:2 15:1 19:19 23:11 28:12 31:6 33:22 47:2 58:4,12 66:11 69:4 70:7 72:2 82:13 83:18 88:6 94:3 ,12 116:17 ,22 136:5 140:13 **refrigerator** 8:3 10:9,22 12:5 ,10 16:5 ,6 18:5 ,8,16 18:18 21:7 22:8 22:13 23:9 25:15 25:19,20 26:11 ,13 26:14,15 28:10,12 34:11 36:17 37:20 38:8,9 42:6,7

44:18 49:16 54:4 54:5 ,13 ,14,16,18 55:15 56:9,19,21 57:17 58:13 ,15 59:14 60:14 65:13 69:7 ,13 72:10 74:3 ,7 79:12 80:5 81:11 82:3 91:5 101:1 ,13 102:5 ,6 102:9 103:12 106:17 107:1 ,4,14 108:17 112:19 116:14 123:21 125:6,9 127:19 129:15 130:6,22 135:17 136:1 137:7 138:14 140:1 148:6,15 150:8,13 ,21 153:16 154:1 161:6 166:7 179:16 **refrigerators** 8:12 10:13 12:6 13:8 13:15 ,22 14:3 ,7 16:3 ,7 ,15 17:19 17:20 18:1 21:5 23:1 ,6 24:18,19 25:14,16,18 27:16 27:16,22 28:2,5 28:10,11 29:11 30:19 32:8,9 34:1 36:7 ,20 38:2 43:3 47:6,17 49:19 54:3 ,10 55:7 ,8 63:12,16 64:1 65:6 70:17 71:2,6 81:3 ,10,14 83:5 84:10 100:13 104:5 107:16,17 112:21 123:6 124:5 ,7 134:21 135:8,18 159:12 160:15 ,18 161:3 ,6 161:21 166:7 ,13 177:18 180:4,20 182:20 183:3 192:6,8 **reg** 31:22 **regarding** 86:19 103:5 159:8 **regardless** 14:8 171:22 179:3 ,18 181:17 **regards** 74:3 **register** 66:12,13

**regroup** 51:22 **regular** 14:2 137:7 **regulate** 127:20 **regulated** 13:21 16:17 64:3 ,14 166:7 **regulates** 48:4 **regulation** 14:21 33:21 67:10 148:20 **regulations** 13:12 17:1 40:14 51:15 168:16 173:10 **regulatory** 70:13 72:10 102:13 166:6 **Reich** 2:21 5:18,18 **related** 105:16 **relates** 101:2 160:7 163:18 **relative** 151:4 **relatively** 127:9 172:19 **relevant** 22:13 141:21 166:12 **relooked** 56:12 **remainder** 158:3 **remaining** 110:4 **remarks** 155:10 **remember** 42:14 159:5 **remind** 128:14 **remote** 9:11 55:19 106:10,21 **remotely** 54:19 **remotes** 37:16,16,17 38:11 55:17 **removed** 178:17 **repackage** 160:8 182:4 192:17 ,18 **repackaging** 158:12 **repeat** 88:1 94:9,18 148:12 **repeated** 114:3 **repeating** 33:21 **replace** 75:2 112:7 113:21 **report** 4:20 **representative** 150:13 171:19 **representativeness** 171:14 **represents** 169:7 **request** 46:22 165:19 166:17ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 210 192:3 **requests** 165:6 191:15 **require** 92:5 121:6 123:15 135:12 137:4,10 182:17 **requirement** 149:10 **requirements** 57:17 68:4 **requires** 34:8 91:8 112:1 113:18 120:7 **requiring** 83:18 87:16 88:7 116:17 116:22 120:1 **residential** 38:2 55:18 65:15 66:11 67:2,17 70:7 71:1 72:8 73:5 ,8,10,12 78:11 93:5 136:10 136:12,19 137:10 **resolution** 142:17 **resolve** 130:7 158:20 **resolved** 157:18 ,19 **resources** 110:17 **respects** 160:17 **respond** 27:12 **response** 159:16 162:8 **rest** 57:14 108:7 111:3 ,8 121:13 144:9 **restate** 143:9 **result** 32:22 45:20 170:16 178:19 179:5 180:21 **results** 4:20 68:16 170:5 175:5 177:22 179:17 **rethink** 69:17 113:9 **return** 98:13 154:16 177:13 **reverting** 119:18 **review** 18:4 156:19 **reviewing** 79:22 **reviews** 18:10 **revised** 6:18 78:21 79:4 87:16 **revising** 177:8 **revisit** 77:14 79:15 158:4 188:3 ,5 ,19 190:13 **revisited** 77:17 **Richard** 2:19 **rid** 94:6 **right** 5:15 6:3 ,11 ,16 6:22 7:7 10:3 ,20 13:7 17:3 ,11 24:8 24:21 26:19 27:1 27:4 29:18 33:2 34:7 ,19 36:14 39:8 43:17 44:10 45:2,11 46:17 ,18 47:7 ,8 49:14,20 49:21 50:2,19 51:3 ,19,21 52:5 54:17 ,22 55:21 57:5 ,8 59:19 60:2 60:3 ,22 63:6 64:18 66:1 ,20 72:4 75:16 76:12 77:2,10 81:14,15 85:17 86:15 87:6 92:7 ,9 93:8 97:2,9 98:4,7 ,13 99:3 ,10 100:19 101:22 102:17 105:8,16 109:5 111:7 ,10,19 114:21 115:1 119:4,6,7 ,9,14 120:11 ,12 121:9 122:2 125:11 126:8,13 127:3 128:1 ,12 129:5 130:15 131:22 132:6 134:1 135:20 137:22 139:16 140:16 144:20 146:5 ,10 147:6 151:9,12,21 153:2,4,9,20 154:10,22 156:3 157:3 ,4,7 158:13 159:7 161:18 ,20 167:14 169:12 173:20 174:22 175:19,20,21 181:16,20,22 183:15 184:7 185:13 ,15 ,19 186:1 ,14,19 187:2 187:7 ,16,20 188:8 188:18 189:4,19 190:6,7 ,15 ,18,20 191:4 192:8 193:8 **road** 23:18 24:4 43:9 92:1 176:16 **roadblock** 139:18 140:10 **Roland** 2:20 4:11 42:18 80:12,13 82:17 85:22

**rolling** 6:14 193:22 **roof** 38:12 **room** 1:7 3:14 6:11 8:21 24:12 34:22 51:1 52:2,7 ,13 ,14 65:22 97:7 108:6 108:8 144:21 170:14 191:6 **rouge** 151:19 **roughly** 54:9 **round** 125:6 **route** 103:19 164:21 **rubric** 30:11 **rule** 26:1 41:21 57:12,14 74:6 119:14 135:17 145:9,15 146:4 **rulemaking** 3:3 18:6 22:2 35:9,10 42:8 43:14 73:22 75:9 78:13 ,22 134:22 135:3 136:6 140:18 141:15 144:18 167:7 **rulemakings** 34:7 34:14 35:8 42:3 136:8 **run** 40:4 112:15 ,21 118:13 134:6 156:22 **running** 91:22 173:14 176:21 177:3 **runs** 119:3 **rural** 112:17 **RV** 86:20 112:21 **RV's** 112:21 **S safe**  67:4 **Safety** 70:8 71:3 **sale** 115:7 **sample** 50:7 82:8 173:13 176:19 180:14 **sanitation** 14:20 **Sarah** 2:5 5:10 10:19 11:8 21:9 27:5 73:14 141:16 142:2 144:13 **satisfied** 100:16 **saw** 82:10 183:11 183:21 **saying** 13:3 16:4 21:17 24:3 ,19 30:10 35:6,6 36:1 36:3 37:13 38:8 45:17 ,22 46:11 51:1 ,3 55:17 56:19 60:10 62:2 68:6,11 71:19 78:14 80:14 103:16 115:16 117:17 118:17 121:12 124:11 126:10 133:3 152:22 154:10 162:12,12 175:1 179:12 **says** 29:1 56:14 71:17 83:17 84:5 84:18 89:20 92:5 93:17 112:1 133:13 138:1 153:9 **scenario** 48:18 **Schaefer** 2:18 4:15 4:15 37:10 38:5 95:3 ,4 96:15 ,15 138:8,8 139:9,9 139:20,20 141:11 141:11 187:11 ,17 187:19,22 **schedule** 3:13 18:10 27:18 28:16 41:19 42:7 154:21 158:1 **scope** 37:5 42:10 70:11 71:4 78:12 78:13 79:1 134:22 144:4,12 **Scott** 5:19 122:14 **screen** 79:22 128:13 129:5 ,10 157:10 **sealed** 139:4 **searches** 40:1 **second** 60:14,21 61:11 ,11 ,13 ,16 112:1 143:10 146:3 ,7 ,8,15 173:8 **secondly** 140:15 173:12 **seconds** 20:16 **secretary** 19:5 ,17 42:13 48:8 **section** 27:20 28:2,4 28:21 29:21 32:2 55:4 62:20 69:6,8 69:19 84:20 100:3 106:13 129:18 133:22,22 152:20

**security** 186:14 **see** 3:5 7:18 13:20 19:8 21:13 24:2 24:17 26:18 27:7 51:7 52:14 53:11 57:21 58:18 59:13 61:1 ,12,15 ,19 62:8,20 63:2,5 71:17 ,19 72:1 ,4 72:17 76:16 77:12 77:19,20 78:1 79:16,20 80:4 81:12 85:21 86:12 88:2 92:13 96:4 96:19 97:3 ,17 98:3 ,17 100:7 ,14 104:8 109:17 110:6,16 121:2,8 124:3 ,11 126:19 127:18 128:13 130:1 132:3 133:13 140:2 142:20 143:1 145:8,9 147:8,18 152:20 154:2 155:2,19 165:1 ,19 168:5 172:17 174:22 175:18 176:6,15 183:16 184:22 185:1 ,6,14 186:15 ,18 187:1 188:21 ,22 190:14 191:9 193:22 **seeing** 40:11 86:5 108:22 111:1 186:20 **seek** 21:13 **select** 115:12 **self-contained** 37:14 38:13 101:13 **sell** 119:3 **seller** 60:15 **selling** 115:7 **sells** 84:3 87:11 **send** 166:17 172:9 189:6 191:14 193:5 **sense** 11:4 13:3 ,14 15:12 24:12,13 ,15 24:17 27:14 52:6 109:9 123:11 124:17 125:4 141:4,7 167:3 170:17ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 211 **sent** 7:14 155:18 **sentence** 60:13 ,18 71:12 100:22 112:11 113:1 ,9 **separate** 14:4 18:17 20:22 21:5 40:8 49:4 54:20 56:18 62:4,15 67:21 71:14,20 83:16 135:2 136:5 ,8 141:13 144:18 145:14 146:4 149:21 161:15 162:3 168:3 ,7 **separated** 8:2 16:11 **separately** 13:6 136:14 **separating** 8:7 160:1 ,2 161:14 168:13 **separation** 15:13 **September** 190:9 **series** 26:13 **served** 174:11 **Service** 2:4 **set** 14:1 17:18 18:5 30:1 31:12 39:2 48:9 49:22 100:22 107:4 124:4 158:20 182:6 **setting** 18:8 24:1 100:18 150:9 164:16 179:17 183:5 **settings** 183:13 **SF** 14:19 **Shaking** 120:16 137:13 **share** 53:13 82:20 164:16,21 167:1 **sheet** 79:1 ,2 193:5 **shelf** 55:15 **shipments** 164:14 **shop** 160:19 **short** 73:19 **shove** 12:11 **show** 23:2 59:13 61:1 ,12 62:20 63:3 79:16 96:4 96:20 97:3 100:7 121:2,8 130:1 ,20 132:3 145:9 154:2 165:1 172:7 182:10,10 186:16 187:1 188:21 **showing** 62:22 63:4 79:17 154:4 170:4 180:14,16 **shown** 44:3 **side-tracked** 62:16 **sideway** 63:6 **sideways** 63:14 **Sigmund** 179:8 **sign** 158:9 **significant** 41:20 90:15 ,15 **silence** 109:19 **similar** 32:6 133:19 142:6 150:21 160:17 167:8 177:17 **simple** 66:4,7 93:18 150:22 **simpler** 13:18,19 **simulate** 172:13 **single** 22:20 94:4 113:11 ,11 114:9 116:17 ,22 118:4 159:14 **single-phase** 91:8 92:5 94:12 95:21 **sitting** 36:13 55:14 **situation** 150:5 ,10 162:20 167:8 177:18 **six** 179:8 **size** 50:7 161:1 ,10 162:14,15 163:18 163:20 166:5 ,10 176:19 **sizes** 170:9 **skewed** 170:5 **skill** 4:21 **slept** 6:4 **slide** 20:13 ,14,15 24:21 25:1 62:6 79:22 106:5 114:6 114:7 119:22 122:5 142:21 152:1 172:8,10 **slides** 99:22 156:9 159:18 **slight** 93:2 **smaller** 139:12 164:7 **smart** 6:8,10 **smiling** 93:20,21 **smoother** 194:5 **sold** 89:6 92:22 116:1 ,5 117:11 118:9,21 119:8 137:15 164:4 **solely** 84:21 87:10

87:13 89:20,22 91:19 93:7 94:21 **solid** 9:5 **solution** 34:8 79:11 **Solutions** 2:9 **solving** 99:17 **somebody** 47:22 135:18 157:2 186:2 **someday** 11:16 **somewhat** 63:11 160:19,22 **sooner** 3:5 **sorry** 20:9 49:22 52:7 61:4,17 76:8 80:13 83:2 86:11 88:12 96:5 114:21 117:22 119:22 126:7 129:19 133:11 143:3 146:6,6 161:21 187:19 **sort** 17:20 18:12 19:3 ,8 29:17 31:18 37:7 40:22 41:13 45:21 46:8 63:10,16 90:6 105:11 106:22 107:17 110:3 135:21 141:4 148:3 155:7 163:18 167:8,10 **sound** 159:3 **sounded** 8:4 **sounds** 8:13 37:3 59:9 73:2 74:16 74:19 77:1 86:22 157:21 166:16 167:16 **source** 83:18 88:6 88:19 94:3 ,11 112:14 116:16,21 **Southern** 2:14 5:3 169:9 **spark** 54:22 **speak** 26:2 59:12 61:18 89:13 93:12 100:11 152:15 155:14,14 181:22 191:1 **speaking** 104:4 124:19 **special** 67:3 68:3 **specific** 17:2 37:13 55:6 56:17 ,20 65:18 66:20 83:10

149:7 **specifically** 106:20 108:16 124:13 131:7 **specification** 152:19 **specify** 184:9 **spend** 14:22 64:15 **spent** 140:2 157:21 174:7 **spite** 175:9 **split** 23:21 162:3 **splits** 24:2 **splitting** 159:21 **spray** 29:5 **stage** 102:3 193:21 **staggered** 17:14 **stakeholders** 21:22 167:1 ,20 **stale** 138:17 **stamping** 26:6 **stand-alone** 71:20 137:1 ,3 **standard** 10:10 14:1 ,16,20 15:1 ,3 17:18 21:12 28:1 34:16 35:15 36:6 36:17 ,18,20 37:6 40:12 42:5 ,6 54:8 54:17 63:22 64:5 66:10,21 107:13 107:17 132:20 134:7 139:12 151:12 160:3 173:11 182:21 183:5 **standards** 2:15 5:6 14:18 16:2 18:4,5 18:7 ,9,11 ,16 21:7 21:14 23:19 27:17 28:6,16 29:1 33:20 35:2,14,21 39:2 41:17 44:22 45:4,6 48:9 50:1 56:1 63:21 64:9 65:6 69:1 ,2 78:18 101:7 107:4,10 124:4 125:6 134:9 151:2 163:9 177:9 179:22 **standing** 52:14 **stark** 176:2 **start** 6:20 7:10 23:18 24:1 42:22 43:1 88:12 107:10 111:17 135:5 ,11 147:11 ,12 148:9

156:4 157:8 158:12 182:12 185:4 186:6 **started** 3:20 4:5 6:17 38:1 52:22 98:21 105:15 109:13 128:15 129:9 **starting** 102:19 117:15 120:7 185:17 **starts** 43:15 **State** 6:2 **stated** 143:6 **statement** 76:15 87:8 179:8 180:16 **Stations** 95:9 **statistics** 40:5 **status** 65:10 193:19 **statute** 10:21 11:10 18:3 28:4 29:1 30:3 ,4,8 31:18 32:10,17 39:16,17 44:7 ,8 69:4 **statute's** 44:20 **statutory** 12:19 175:9 **stay** 30:20 114:6 128:6 138:19 **stays** 112:19 **Stem** 5:21 ,21 **step** 23:2 98:9 171:1 182:7 **Stephen** 2:18 4:15 25:3 ,10 37:9 95:2 95:4 96:11 ,14,15 138:6,8 139:8,9 139:19,20 141:10 141:11 152:3 187:8,8,20 **steps** 68:19 **STERN** 88:14 **stick** 76:10,19 138:20 **sticking** 16:1 115:15 **stop** 19:9 110:7 155:9 **stopping** 155:7 **storage** 65:2 137:21 137:21 138:18 ,22 **store** 137:11 ,17 **storing** 138:2,5 **Storming** 193:19 **straight** 127:9 141:14ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 212 **street** 124:22 **strengthening** 119:13 **stretch** 118:12 **strictly** 104:4 **strike** 75:2 94:16 104:18 111:11 ,15 120:6 122:3 131:13 **striked** 76:11 **striking** 113:7 **striving** 74:19 **strong** 97:21 **strongly** 175:16 **struck** 96:7 ,8,12,18 118:3 120:11 ,17 131:9 **structure** 6:13 ,15 98:9 **structured** 68:9 **structures** 43:14 **stuff** 161:20 182:8 **stumbling** 27:19 **Sub-Zero** 2:19 9:3 80:2 83:3 93:14 103:3 106:9 115:2 125:3 152:7 160:13 163:5 174:4 **Sub-Zero-Wolf** 5:9 **subdivided** 38:6 **subject** 29:1 85:5 95:1 165:6 **submit** 51:13 124:21 **submitted** 167:12 **substance** 13:7 18:20,22 **substantive** 29:7 **success** 193:14 **sufficient** 153:18 **suggest** 26:17 48:8 58:17 66:2 75:5 80:6 103:4 127:7 163:22 175:6 **suggested** 10:7 129:22 **suggesting** 29:13 ,18 48:7 106:20 112:2 113:9 118:18 120:5 140:16,17 162:12,16 176:8 **suggestion** 46:7 90:12 109:22 113:2,10 114:21 145:13 160:14 161:4 167:18

**suggestions** 115:11 **suite** 114:17 **summarize** 151:15 166:20 **summarizing** 27:6,6 **summary** 193:7 **superfast** 190:3 **supervisor** 11:9,11 **supplied** 83:22 84:14 89:3 **supply** 125:1 **support** 36:5 135:3 169:6 **supported** 171:2,4 171:11 **supposed** 175:13 176:20 177:7 **sure** 3:10 7:3 ,11 15:11 16:9 34:8 42:11 64:13 82:1 82:22 83:11 99:14 102:21 103:15 ,17 105:12,18 106:12 107:3 115:16 117:16 118:22 122:14 126:18 128:17 143:4,11 145:11 ,20 149:14 153:8 156:10,13 156:17 159:4 171:7 174:16 194:7 **surface** 138:21 **SW** 1:8 **switch** 36:4 122:22 123:4 **switched** 176:8 **switching** 176:11 **sync** 18:12 34:7 35:8,11 42:3 **synced** 43:1 **syncing** 35:13 **system** 15:17 17:6 47:16 49:5 82:13 174:19 **systems** 48:20 56:7 57:3 **T t**  113:13 177:2 **table** 50:19,22 51:5 62:4,18 108:13 110:4,20 142:19 **tabling** 109:6 110:1 111:19 **tackle** 15:12 75:7

141:6 **tail** 174:6 **take** 8:9,19,20 10:13 11:5 ,9 16:15 21:1 25:5 26:18,20 35:9 39:2 40:15 43:15 64:2 68:19 75:12 77:12 79:19 93:3 97:12,16 100:14 109:16 115:3 121:4 127:10,14 129:3 ,4,14 141:9 142:3 ,7 144:14,21 147:7 151:3 ,3 153:21 156:16,19 157:4 158:2,7 159:2 166:18 177:8 178:9 179:8 182:6 183:20 191:21 193:16 **takers** 165:2 **takes** 65:9,14 **talk** 8:22 11:7 ,11 ,11 52:2 60:9 76:5 96:19 106:4 108:7 110:8,19 121:13 152:14 154:12 159:7 166:1 **talked** 38:22 81:21 86:4 105:5 117:14 123:13 153:10 154:11 159:11 171:12 **talking** 11:15 13:17 24:2 25:13 31:10 36:9 42:9 53:16 58:19,20 60:4,4 67:19 76:13 78:6 96:12 97:6 108:3 113:7 120:1 134:17 136:20,22 137:4 140:3 174:5 174:8,21 185:20 185:21 188:14 **talks** 119:22 **tangential** 25:13 **tank** 112:18 **tap** 114:22 **target** 177:20 178:1 **team** 7:13 155:17 185:9 193:16 **Tech** 2:17 **technical** 6:6 73:7 73:12 **technically** 190:8

**technological** 39:17 39:19,22 **technologies** 11:15 16:11 23:15 ,20 107:18 172:2 **technology** 11:14,14 11:20 13:10 14:9 17:21 22:10,21 23:7 ,8,11 ,13 36:4 36:10 39:1 ,12,12 40:12,13 43:17 54:6,19 57:4 58:1 58:4,14 176:9 **Ted** 3:7 5:13 85:21 99:19 **televisions** 45:5 ,6,7 **tell** 6:14 41:8 62:9 67:18 97:5 129:3 189:13 **telling** 35:3 **tells** 87:11 **temperature** 20:19 50:9 57:16 65:4 77:12 79:13 81:16 81:17 ,22 82:10 97:13 ,17 ,22 121:1 121:4 122:7 123:20 130:15 ,19 132:1 144:21 145:4 150:8,12 152:15 153:21 169:18 172:2,16 173:15 ,16 175:4 177:1 ,4,20 178:2 178:5 ,7 179:18 180:5 ,8,10,15 181:12 183:7 **temperatures** 8:5 15:13 47:8 56:9 81:4,5 ,6,11 82:7 83:17 94:6,15 104:14 105:21 151:2 152:11 169:21 170:7 ,12 173:21 176:14 177:14 181:3 192:10 **Ten** 129:5 **tend** 138:20 **tenuous** 118:19 **TENV** 80:15 **term** 9:20 17:13 26:11 27:21 30:6 72:1 73:19 79:1 140:13 **terminologies** 44:2

**terminology** 26:15 31:5 **terms** 9:5 16:16 17:21 21:18 37:5 93:9 124:12 135:22 144:4 169:19 173:20 **test** 8:3 16:2 44:3 68:3 102:3 132:12 132:16 134:6 136:18 137:5 139:11 ,16 140:10 143:12,15 150:11 150:12 152:18 154:9 155:17 156:4 158:16 159:1 169:15 170:5 ,6,19 171:20 172:6,12,13 174:9 174:11 ,15 ,17 178:4,19 179:5 180:9 182:19 183:1 ,1 **tested** 43:10 50:8 67:22 81:10 82:7 105:20 152:8 169:22 173:7 ,9 177:19 180:3 ,22 182:7 ,15 183:4 **testing** 67:3 68:2 73:6,6 81:2,5 150:7 171:3 ,4,18 171:21 173:22 174:8 178:10,12 179:1 **tests** 172:1 **text** 80:21 89:19 91:16 94:7 104:2 131:5 **thank** 4:21 23:4 51:18 52:19 63:18 83:2 85:20 97:2 126:2 153:1 157:22 193:9,22 **thanks** 61:21 157:13 **theory** 21:10 **thermal** 9:12,22 10:6,7 ,13 22:8,17 23:10 92:6 160:1 165:13 174:1 **thermal-electric** 50:13 54:7 82:15 **thing** 6:14,21 11:12 19:4 30:10 31:11ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 213 34:5 ,6 57:21 60:20 69:5 79:6,9 99:22 100:15 117:19 122:9 129:17 147:5 159:7 167:6 169:18 179:10 **things** 3:5 6:7 29:4 29:6 31:14,18 34:1 42:22 65:5 66:9 69:20 70:19 89:9 99:13 ,18 123:16 124:3 134:5 137:9 140:9 154:19 155:11 163:6 174:18 176:9 181:7 190:1 194:4 **think** 6:5 ,17 7:16,20 9:9 10:17 12:18 12:18 13:1 ,11 ,17 14:5 ,10 15:9,11 15:18 16:22 17:12 17:16,17 19:3 ,15 20:4,18 21:17 ,18 21:20 22:9 23:7 23:12 24:3 ,16 26:9,20 27:14 28:3 35:5 ,6,16,19 35:20 39:11 47:4 47:10,11 48:11 51:1 ,12 52:13 55:1 ,8 56:5 ,6,11 57:9,13 58:5 59:6 59:8,10,16,17 ,21 59:22 62:1 ,3 ,7 ,12 63:7 ,8,10,12,13 64:12,21 68:12 69:2,9,18 70:5 71:7 72:6 73:21 74:1 ,2,6,11 75:21 76:3 ,6,18 77:11 80:3 ,3 ,20 82:1 83:8 84:6,12,17 85:8,9,11 86:3 ,12 87:5 ,6,7 88:7 93:14 95:16,20 97:10 101:15 102:9,12 103:17 105:9,13 ,22 107:22 108:2,2,9 108:15 ,21 109:3 ,6 109:11 110:7 111:11 113:17 ,18 113:20 114:18 115:12,20 116:7 ,8 117:4,6,10,16,17

118:20 119:2,6,10 119:10,16,20 120:2,5 ,10 121:12 122:21 123:4,10 124:3 ,7 ,14 125:22 126:5 ,11 ,13 ,22 128:19 129:21 131:1 132:6,17 ,20 133:22 134:11 ,15 135:11 136:12,17 137:14,19,20,22 139:14 140:9,11 141:17 ,21 ,22 143:5 ,16,19,20 144:2,3 145:12,12 145:13 146:18 147:4,10 148:8,22 149:15 ,22 151:14 151:17 153:13 154:7 ,11 ,21 155:5 156:1 ,22 157:8 158:17 ,18,19 159:19 160:6 161:13 ,16,18 162:18 163:6,21 165:3 168:2,21 169:14 171:13 172:5 173:19 175:16,19,20 177:17 181:1 ,21 182:1 ,8 185:4,9 188:11 ,16,17 192:2,5 193:2,12 194:2,4 **thinking** 7:10 13:18 23:6 92:4 109:20 114:10 124:19 135:22 174:6 **third** 61:17 ,21 67:11 77:14 78:7 79:16 101:1 111:12,15 112:1 144:15 146:17 **thought** 78:9 91:6,7 105:18 108:12 117:18 118:16 **thoughtful** 193:12 **thoughts** 135:14 160:5 ,7 167:4 **thousand** 64:4 66:6 66:16 **thousands** 174:10 **three** 139:4 141:3 193:4 **threshold** 30:4 57:13 ,13 181:12

**thresholds** 30:21 46:15 **throw** 72:3 127:11 156:9 **throwing** 18:19 65:22 162:9 172:8 **thrown** 92:21 185:13 **thumb** 63:14 79:17 100:9 132:5 145:2 145:3 ,3 154:4 186:17 187:6,7 **thumbs** 59:13 61:2 61:3 ,12,14,15 ,19 62:21 ,22 63:3 ,4,6 79:16 96:4,20 97:3 ,18,19 98:1 100:7 121:2,8 130:1 ,20 132:3 145:9 154:2,10 185:15 186:16,18 186:20 187:1 188:9,22 **tie** 175:3 ,5 **tight** 158:1 **Tim** 4:9 16:21 17:7 17:15 25:2,9,11 27:13 41:15 52:11 53:14,15 86:17 87:3 89:13 90:4 93:20,22 96:22 103:9,10 106:19 107:22 109:21 116:12 127:6 130:4 141:1 149:17 154:5 ,6 167:21 ,22 191:8 **Tim's** 45:15 ,18 46:6 46:7 **time** 12:13 13:21 15:15 19:7 26:20 31:22 32:1 ,4,13 33:9,12,17 35:12 40:2,13 42:2 46:14 47:12 52:4 53:6,6,13 ,20 60:14 64:2 98:13 99:4,5 ,15 102:11 108:2,15 109:3 ,10 109:15 110:4 113:17 115:7 121:6 127:12,14 127:20 130:7 132:8 136:13 140:2,5 141:9 142:16 143:10

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202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 214 120:11 129:11 136:13 144:3 145:12 147:4 150:10 151:14 152:2 156:22 176:22 181:15 **TSD** 22:9,14 **Tuesday** 1:12 **turn** 126:7 **turns** 190:2 **TV's** 95:8 **tweak** 143:1 **tweaked** 130:7 **twice** 191:3 **two** 4:19 14:15 ,18 17:16 33:21 41:17 53:19 77:8,18,19 84:16 87:12 88:20 89:3 95:16 99:4 124:2 131:1 132:1 136:8 138:16 140:2 148:18 ,19 150:22 151:1 ,4 157:1 159:20 160:16 163:6 167:8 170:12 186:21 187:15 188:12,12 **two-way** 124:22 **type** 6:9 14:19 15:8 31:1 32:22 37:13 37:21 62:15 73:10 82:12 84:10 92:7 101:14 113:19 **types** 8:10 23:8 31:9 38:12 80:19 95:11 124:12 135:6 162:22 170:20 180:6,12 **typical** 169:7 **typically** 115:21 116:3 164:7 **U U-Line**  2:20 4:12 80:14 **U.S** 1:1 ,6 **UL** 14:16,16,17 66:10,18 67:20,20 68:3 **ultimately** 53:10 57:7 74:8 92:8 175:22 **umbrella** 140:12 **unchanged** 172:20 **uncooled** 137:21 **underneath** 134:13

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# TRANSCRIPTION CERTIFICATE



# As a professional transcriber, I certify that the attached document(s) are, to the best of my abilities, an accurate transcription of audio recordings provided to the company, given the quality of the provided audio recording(s), and that I have no financial or other interest in the proceedings to which they pertain.

TRANSCRIBER