Date: May 5, 2015

Case: ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY PUBLIC MEETING

 ASRAC MISCELLANEOUS REFRIGERATION

 WORKING GROUP MEETING

 U.S. Department of Energy

 Forrestal Building, Room 8E-089

 1000 Independence Avenue, SW

 Washington, DC 20585

 9:00 a.m.

 Tuesday, May 5, 2015
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1 Appearances for Department of Energy Meeting

2

3 Javier Ramirez, Facilator, Federal Mediation &

4 Conciliation Service

5 Sarah Butler, DOE

6 Joseph Hagerman, DOE

7 Brenda Edwards, DOE

8 Timothy Ballo, Earthjustice

9 Bill A. Brown, GE Home & Business Solutions

10 Jennifer Cleary, Association of Home Appliance

11 Manufacturers (AHAM)

12 Mary Dane, Traulsen

13 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing

14 Chris Kuch, Southern California Edison

15 Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness Project

16 (ASAP)

17 Dan Orman, Haler America Tech Center

18 Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizai America, Inc.

19 Richard F. Topping, Sub-Zero Group, Inc.

20 Roland Marciniak, U-Line Corp

21 Judith Reich, Navigant

22 Troy Watson, Navigant
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1 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Good morning. I'm

2 Eileen Barkas Hoffman. Welcome to the negotiated

3 rulemaking. We are here from 9 to 5. If we get

4 going maybe we will even be able to end a little

5 sooner, we will see. A couple of things, a couple of

6 announcements -- first so you have maximum

7 consistency we have brought in my colleague Ted

8 Bantle.

9 He will be hearing and meeting you and we

10 will make sure there is coverage for all of your

11 meetings. What we hope to do today is also work on

12 the dates so that everyone knows when our dates are

13 for this fairly accelerated schedule. We want to go

14 around the room for introductions and any opening

15 comments and when we get to Charlie and Jenn who are

16 from -- our co-chairs from ASRAC if you want to say a

17 few words about ASRAC please feel free to do that too

18 and also find out who is on the line and who is the

19 public.

20 So before we get started good morning and

21 I am also very pleased we are all here today except

22 for one person who we are in touch with and look
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1 forward to having his participation for the next

2 meeting. Okay, I'm Eileen Barkas Hoffman, one of the

3 facilitators.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Javier Ramirez and I'll make

5 a couple of brief comments before we get started but

6 at the end. 

7 MR. HERMOSILLO: Isael Hermosillo.

8 MR. ORMAN: Dan Orman, Haier America.

9 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo, Earthjustice.

10 MR. MOUW: Nathan Mouw with Whirlpool.

11 MR. MARCINIAK: Roland Marciniak with

12 U-Line.

13 MS. DANE-GREENHOW: Mary Dane with

14 Trulsen.

15 MR. SCHAEFER: Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki

16 America.

17 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing

18 and ASRAC member. We are -- Jennifer and I are the

19 two ASRAC members assigned to this Committee to

20 report back to the parent Committee on results,

21 direction, skill, lots of activities, thank you.

22 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary with AHAM and
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1 also ASRAC member and I don't have anything to add

2 other than what Charlie said.

3 MR. KUCH: Chris Kuch, Southern California

4 Edison.

5 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance

6 Standards Awareness Project.

7 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown, GE Appliances.

8 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping,

9 Sub-Zero-Wolf.,

10 MS. BUTLER: Sarah Butler, DOE.

11 MR. WATSON: Troy Watson with Navigant.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE.

13 MR. BANTLE: Ted Bantle, Federal

14 Mediation.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so I had mentioned

16 to -- oh.

17 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Wait.

18 MS. REICH: Judith Reich from Navigant.

19 MR. YOUNG: Scott Young, Lawrence Berkeley

20 National Laboratory.

21 MR. STEM: Mike Stem, Intertek.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman. On
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1 the webinar we have folks from Emerson, Electrolux

2 and New York State. 

3 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so I had mentioned

4 when we were assembling that I slept like a baby last

5 night. Trying to keep up with you all I think you

6 really exhausted me so it is technical and one of the

7 things that I am constantly amazed at when we get

8 these folks together is truly the smart folks that

9 are accumulated for these type of meetings. 

10 And with all of these smart folks in the

11 room we should be able to figure something out right? 

12 And what the DOE tries to do is they try to provide

13 some structure for the conversation, at least to get

14 the ball rolling. And one thing that I will tell you

15 all is that if the structure that is provided, if it

16 is not working let us know what does right, but if --

17 hopefully when we get started here I think Troy tried

18 to come up with a revised definition based on some of

19 the comments that were made yesterday and we can

20 start off with that.

21 One thing I do want to empower you with is

22 the ELMO, Enough Let's Move On. Right? Because
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1 there are times where I may not realize that you are

2 beating a dead horse or we are way off into the weeds

3 and if I am not picking up on that I am sure that you

4 all are. Anyone can call an ELMO and say hey we are

5 way off track here, enough let's move on and we will

6 refocus the conversation. Any questions on that? 

7 All right. 

8 So with that I will pass it over to DOE

9 and to Troy to give us an idea of what you are

10 thinking for yesterday and how we can start today.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Sure. Joe Hagerman, DOE. 

12 So we worked last night with Ashley and the Navigant

13 team to kind of re-craft some definitions after the

14 discussion and I believe they sent the power point to

15 you if you can pull that up. 

16 We think this reflects the conversation a

17 little bit better on the display.

18 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Can you see or am I

19 blocking?

20 MR. WATSON: So I think -- this is Troy

21 Watson from Navigant. A lot of the discussion

22 yesterday was around the 90 degree issue and how
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1 compressor and non-compressor products would be

2 separated. So this just pulls up the proposed

3 definition for a refrigerator from the test procedure

4 NOPR and it sounded like the group was going towards

5 clarifying that the temperatures would be determined

6 in the 90 degree Fahrenheit and then there was a

7 bunch of discussion about separating out the

8 non-compressor products.

9 And number 2 down here would actually take

10 care of that by clarifying that those types of

11 products would be excluded from the current

12 refrigerators. So we had a lot of discussion and it

13 sounds that there weren't a lot of changes that were

14 actually necessary to this definition so it would be

15 good to get the group's feedback on that.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm purposing letting the

17 pause in there so you all can read it. 

18 MR. HAGERMAN: I will make this offer too, 

19 if we need to take a -- and this is up here and

20 people have digested, if you want to take a break as

21 a group and go huddle in the back room you are

22 welcome to and talk about this. 
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: So are there any questions? 

2 Go ahead.

3 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. I

4 mean just a couple of comments. And we haven't

5 gotten to this yet but in terms of the solid

6 compartments being less than half the refrigerated

7 volume that's something that's open for discussion

8 hopefully later on. 

9 I think number 2 there I know what the

10 intent is -- the intent there is to not include

11 remote condensing unit products. The issue is that

12 this is going to include thermal electrics, they

13 don't have compressors and condensers either so we

14 will have to just wordsmith that.

15 MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. 

16 So if we say it's excluding products that do not

17 include a compressor and condenser wouldn't that

18 exclude several electric products?

19 MR. TOPPING: Aaaaaa.

20 MR. WATSON: So the term does not include

21 any so.

22 MR. TOPPING: Well I mean thermal electric
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1 does not have a compressor and condenser as an

2 integral part of the cabinet.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: All right so it is not

4 including --

5 MR. TOPPING: So this does not include

6 thermal electric. Okay so we are not attempting to

7 as we suggested yesterday include thermal electrics

8 in this issue.

9 MR. WATSON: This is just the refrigerator

10 definition, so standard --

11 MR. TOPPING: I understand, but the

12 discussion yesterday was whether it would be possible

13 to take thermal electric refrigerators out of the

14 miscellaneous category and put it in post category. 

15 I mean that was a discussion that we brought up at

16 the end of the day.

17 MS. BUTLER: I think the problem with

18 doing that is this is something that comes directly

19 out of EPCA, this is Sarah Butler, DOE, so our

20 position right now is that we can't go beyond what is

21 allowed under the statute of product coverage under

22 the definition of refrigerator.
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1 MR. TOPPING: Dick again, I will just push

2 back a little bit and say I mean I believe the intent

3 of this group is to try to break down some barriers

4 if they make sense and so the issue is, is this a

5 drop-dead no discussion, no deliberation, no take it

6 upstairs to really determine that or is that

7 something we just can't talk about.

8 MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler, DOE. I

9 will take it back to my supervisor but really we are

10 pretty bound by the language in the statute, so I

11 will talk to my supervisor, talk about it some more.

12 MR. TOPPING: Just one other thing we were

13 discussing this morning, you know, anecdotal but the

14 issue is technology changes, technology advances and

15 you know we are talking about other technologies that

16 someday may be part of discussions such as this,

17 magnetic refrigeration you know, name any and so you

18 know if we are going to be bound by this definition

19 it goes back to the 80's or whenever it is and

20 whenever a new technology comes forward that is not

21 driven by compressor then it is going to have to go

22 in to some other bucket, you know. 
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1 We developed this miscellaneous

2 refrigeration bucket now. The question is that

3 long-term what's the best way to do it? You know in

4 the long-term should anything that is -- provides the

5 function of a refrigerator be in one category of

6 refrigerators with other product classes and

7 everything that we have now, you know dealt with all

8 in one piece instead of you know, patching it into

9 here's this product that doesn't meet the definition

10 but maybe is a refrigerator but since it doesn't meet

11 it we should shove it over here.

12 That's what has to be done, obviously that

13 is what has to be done but it is probably a good time

14 to bring up the issue is there is some flexibility in

15 expanding this now because it is going to happen

16 again. 

17 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman. I don't

18 think we disagree, I think we are just bound to the

19 statutory -- it's above our collective pay rates.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Jennifer and then

21 Charlie.

22 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary. I don't want to
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1 beat the dead horse but I think DOE should really

2 consider this carefully because it doesn't -- kind of

3 what you are saying doesn't make a lot of sense to

4 me. If you are bound by EPCA to not consider

5 non-compressor products you are considering them. 

6 You are determining coverage separately so it is like

7 form over substance right? If you are going to cover

8 non-compressor products and they are refrigerators,

9 they don't have a different consumer utility it is

10 just a different technology and they fit under the

11 existing EPCA definition then I would think you know

12 through your regulations you should be able to

13 account for that.

14 It doesn't make sense to say well we can't

15 cover them as refrigerators so we are going to like

16 call them something different. I don't know and when

17 we were talking yesterday I think Ashley mentioned it

18 seemed simpler and as I was thinking about it

19 overnight it really doesn't seem simpler to me

20 because I don't see how we are ever going to get them

21 either you know regulated at the same time as you

22 know currently covered refrigerators.
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1 If we set a standard in this group they

2 are going to be like 3-4 years different than regular

3 refrigerators, we are not going to unify them. They

4 are basically going to be treated as a separate

5 product class which I think is to get the whole

6 intent of covering in the first place, they should be

7 included in the analysis with all refrigerators. 

8 They should all be treated equally regardless of the

9 technology so I just feel like we have to figure out

10 how to meet what I think the Department's goal is and

11 even proposing to cover these products in the first

12 place.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie?

14 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing. 

15 I have one comment on the last two bullet points of i

16 and ii -- ANSI UL 471 has a parallel standard UL 250

17 which is UL is pretty particular on how they apply

18 those two standards so they wouldn't be crossing

19 over. But ANSI and SF 7 is a one of a kind type

20 standard for sanitation and this can be used as an

21 avoidance of regulation because if you are using that

22 as an exception and not getting -- you can spend
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1 $10,000 and get ANSI Standard 7 on any refrigeration

2 product in which case you wouldn't have to meet the

3 energy standard because you would be exempted from

4 it.

5 MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson from

6 Navigant. So that gets back to what we discussed in

7 the previous public meetings about trying to exclude

8 commercial type products from these definitions and I

9 think that's a whole other issue that we will be

10 getting into quite a bit and we will be looking for

11 the group's feedback on that for sure but I think at

12 this point it probably makes the most sense to tackle

13 the separation, the temperatures, the issues.

14 MR. HON: Charlie, and I totally agree we

15 will get to that in due time but I just wanted to

16 note the fact that if we follow this explicitly we

17 have a problem built into the system. 

18 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, I think you

19 understand the intent of what we are trying to do so

20 help us fulfill that intent wherever possible.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: So the question I have for

22 you all is if the non-compressor pieces -- why is
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1 that the sticking point here? If you all are trying

2 to create standards and test procedures, there are

3 some that apply to refrigerators now and they are

4 saying that these are -- they should be categorized

5 under refrigerator or prevent you from using what's

6 for refrigerator for the non-compressor

7 refrigerators. 

8 MS. CLEARY: Because then, I mean the

9 analysis and maybe DOE could address this I'm sure

10 better than I can but the analysis should include

11 looking at all technologies and if they are separated

12 out they are going to be treated differently because

13 they are only going -- the analysis will only

14 consider those products. Whereas if it is considered

15 under refrigerators then the analysis will take them

16 into account as well in terms of their energy use and

17 all of the products will be treated and regulated the

18 same.

19 Maybe someone else can say that much better than I

20 can.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie or Tim, either one?

22 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I think the
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1 problem exists to the existing regulations that are

2 specific on what is not covered and I don't believe

3 this ASRAC Committee has the right to go back and

4 change that. So by not being able to change that

5 portion of it now we have to create a parallel

6 system.

7 MR. BALLO: So this is Tim with

8 Earthjustice. 

9 MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on, maybe not parallel

10 -- Joe Hagerman again. Maybe not a parallel but a

11 complimentary right?

12 MR. HON: Yes I think that is a more

13 accurate term because they are not going to be

14 exactly parallel, they are going to be staggered.

15 MR. BALLO: Tim with Earthjustice. 

16 There's two problems that I can think of. One is I

17 think the one that Jenn was discussing where DOE

18 would have to set a standard for non-compressor

19 refrigerators that only looks at what's possible for

20 non-compressor refrigerators which is sort of

21 inherently a more limited technology in terms of its

22 energy efficiency than vapor compression units which
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1 are already refrigerators.

2 The other issue is lining up the dates. 

3 The statute is very explicit, timelines for DOE

4 review of existing standards going forward so

5 refrigerator standards have already been set a few

6 years ago, there will be another rulemaking coming up

7 in a couple of years to amend those current standards

8 but if we are setting non-compressor refrigerator

9 standards in this proceeding that will be on a

10 different schedule then for free chair reviews and

11 the standards will never really -- will always be

12 sort of out of sync with each other.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: A quick question, Eileen

14 Hoffman. What if the wording is that it will follow

15 the same timeframe as the -- I'm just trying to --

16 the refrigerator standards so that even though it is

17 separate it is going to be and maybe even define that

18 it will include some of the refrigerator, I am just

19 throwing that in. If in fact this is something that

20 building on what Jenn said about form over substance. 

21 If the form is that it can't be for

22 whatever legal reasons together, the substance can be
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1 and if it can be worded that way, I could ask.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman again. 

3 I think the whole timing issues is sort of an

4 administrative thing with you know we could push, or

5 this group could make a recommendation, the secretary

6 such that you know they get enacted and they get

7 enforced and everything at the same time. That's

8 what is in his sort of control. I don't see what

9 that -- I wouldn't stop you know our work here over

10 that administrative issue but it's really counter to

11 that.

12 MR. BALLO: So the Department's position

13 is that there is flexibility under 325(l) to avoid

14 the five year --

15 MR. HAGERMAN: No I think the Department's

16 position is you know this group could make a

17 recommendation to the secretary for him to consider

18 how this gets implemented in line with the current

19 refrigeration.

20 MR. BALLO: Okay but I don't understand

21 why the line is drawn there and not at the

22 definition. If we can make a recommendation that
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1 seems to be a little bit at odds with 325(l) why we

2 couldn't make a recommendation that is a little bit

3 at odds with 322(a)(1). 

4 MR. HAGERMAN: No, I think the

5 department's issue --

6 MR. BALLO: Okay I don't understand why

7 the line --

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Dick?

9 MR. TOPPING: Sorry.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: So what amendments do you

11 need to make to this in order to make this work then

12 as a group?

13 MR. HAGERMAN: And we have one more slide,

14 this is the first slide then we can go to the next

15 slide, did you get it? Now let's give everybody a

16 few seconds to read this one. 

17 MR. WATSON: Yeah and just to clarify

18 these are pretty much the same definitions I think

19 it's just the ambient temperature that would need to

20 be clarified based on the discussion from yesterday

21 and once that seems to be harmonized everything falls

22 out into separate categories pretty easily but yeah,
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1 take a look.

2 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna I had a

3 question just so I can try to understand what the

4 potential options are. So if non-compressor

5 refrigerators were to be a separate category, would

6 we have the option of applying the current

7 refrigerator standards to those products or would it

8 have to be kind of as Jenn was describing?

9 MS. BUTLER: In -- this is Sarah Butler,

10 DOE. In theory but you couldn't forego the analysis

11 that's associated with that in proposing, you would

12 have to you know do the analysis, propose a standard,

13 seek comment and see if it could line up with that

14 but you couldn't just propose those standards without

15 the analysis.

16 MS. MAUER: Okay. 

17 I think as Jenn was saying I

18 think that would be very limiting in terms of what we

19 could do for those products. I would also say that I

20 think perhaps in the past in some cases DOE has you

21 know in the context of you know a consensus of a

22 broad group of stakeholders, DOE has determined that
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1 they have a little bit more flexibility in what they

2 can do compared to a traditional rulemaking process

3 so we would encourage DOE to consider that.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Nate?

5 MR. MOUW: I would just note and I don't

6 recall if it was non-compressor, this is Nate from

7 Whirlpool. I don't recall if it was non-compressor

8 refrigerator or thermal electric cooled cabinets, but

9 I recall in I think the preliminary TSD that one of

10 the technology options was to add a compressor. That

11 seems at odds with this approach in that to add a

12 compressor then moves -- well I guess that's not

13 relevant for a non-compressor refrigerator so is that

14 a change in approach of the TSD?

15 MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson from

16 Navigant. That would apply for the cooled cabinets

17 and the definition up here would cover both thermal

18 electric and vapor compression and cooled cabinets

19 and in the preliminary analysis we considered that as

20 a single product class, so moving to vapor

21 compression was one of the technology options for

22 that product category.
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1 For the non-compressor refrigerators, that

2 doesn't show up as a step because they are defined as

3 not having a compressor.

4 MR. MOUW: Okay thank you. This is Nate

5 from Whirlpool so perhaps maybe looking forward for

6 non-compressor refrigerators, thinking about

7 technology options -- I'm just trying to think you

8 know if you have got multiple types of technology

9 included in a non-compressor refrigerator could be

10 thermal electric, it could be absorption, it could be

11 a magnetic refrigeration technology that is being

12 developed by parties so I am just trying to think

13 through how technology options would work for that

14 product class that includes multiple different

15 technologies.

16 MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. 

17 That's something the working group will have to

18 consider down the road once we start getting into the

19 standards having discussion a bit more and if the

20 group feels like those different technologies should

21 be split into different private classes for utility

22 reasons, then that is something we will get into
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1 after setting up these definitions where we start

2 talking about product class splits. So I see what

3 you are saying and I think that's just a little more

4 down the road from where we are now.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: You know again, this is a

6 proposal for us to discuss if there is a counter, or

7 make amendments to -- all this work is a product of

8 you guys right. We are just putting the initial

9 conversation piece out there.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn?

11 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary. I guess the

12 sense I am getting from the room and places others

13 have been if I am wrong, but the sense I am getting

14 is we kind of need DOE's blessing before we can do

15 what we want, which is I kind of get the sense and I

16 don't know I don't think we have heard from everyone

17 but I get the sense that we would like to see

18 refrigerators defined to include non-compressor

19 refrigerators and that DOE is saying that may not be

20 possible so at least I wouldn't be ready to vote if

21 we go to the previous slide, I wouldn't be able right

22 now to vote yes to what was in number 2 on the
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1 previous slide.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's get Tim and then

3 Stephen.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: Let me just real quick, Joe

5 Hagerman from DOE. You know if we need to take a

6 break we can walk down and grab Dan and he can come

7 back up here and give the kind of formal

8 interpretation and then we can move past that point.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: So let me ask Tim and

10 Stephen would that be beneficial?

11 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earthjustice,

12 yes I just wanted to make one point that is a little

13 bit tangential to this. We have been talking about

14 non-compressor refrigerators but the definition of

15 refrigerator is integral compressor, condenser

16 refrigerators. So there are at least some products

17 out there today that are non-integral compressor,

18 condenser refrigerators and is there an opportunity

19 to make the non-compressor refrigerator definition a

20 non-integral compressor refrigerator definition?

21 MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. 

22 That -- I don't believe that was the intent ideally
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1 on this rule but I am not really familiar with those

2 products how they are used so I can't really speak to

3 whether they should be included or not.

4 MR. BALLO: I know they are pretty much a

5 niche product today but as long as we are in the

6 business of stamping out potential loopholes this

7 seems like an opportunity to address.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie?

9 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I think we have to

10 be very careful because DOE has already defined the

11 term refrigerator as a compressor based product so

12 now we are going to have to come up with a different

13 word than refrigerator or a series of words other

14 than refrigerator, probably non-compressor

15 refrigerator as a terminology so that we are not in

16 any conflict. 

17 MR. RAMIREZ: I -- then let me suggest

18 that we take a break then and see if we can get Dan

19 up here to address the non-compressor piece, right. 

20 So how much time do you think you need? Let's take

21 10 minutes.

22 (BREAK)
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: All right.

2 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: We are back on the

3 record, Charlie we are back on the record, hi.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so we have the

5 General Counsel here so Sarah would you mind

6 summarizing or someone summarizing the question that

7 was posed for Dan and see if we get some clarity?

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's do it this way, Joe

9 Hagerman from DOE -- why don't people express the

10 kind of comments they just gave to us so Dan could

11 hear the comments in your own words and then he could

12 respond.

13 MR. BALLO: So this is Tim with

14 Earthjustice. I think my sense is a working group

15 generally would like to treat non-compressor

16 refrigerators the same as compressor refrigerators

17 that are already covered, to apply the same standards

18 on the same schedule. 

19 One of the stumbling blocks seems to be

20 this provision in Section 322(a) which defines -- I

21 hate using that term, but identifies the

22 refrigerators that are covered products under the
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1 NAECA standard. It however is not a definition of

2 refrigerators, it is not in the definition section

3 and I think the placement of that limitation in the

4 coverage section of the statute limits its

5 application to the refrigerators that were covered by

6 the NAECA standards.

7 DOE -- because it is not a definition, is

8 free to augment and add products to the covered

9 products so that the covered product won't

10 necessarily be just refrigerators, refrigerator

11 freezers and freezers, it will be refrigerators,

12 refrigerator freezers initially refrigeration

13 products essentially.

14 If there's another way for us to get at

15 this issue to make the products adhere to the same

16 standards on the same schedule we are open to do that

17 but this seemed one way to do it. 

18 MR. COHEN: So this is Dan Cohen, General

19 Counsel's office at DOE. So the way we -- it's not

20 just in this particular issue generically the way

21 that we have read Section 292 is it defines the

22 covered products. A list of covered products that
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1 the statute says are what are subject to standards

2 and where DOE's authority lies. There are obviously

3 other products in 6295 that aren't listed here but we

4 also treat as covered products, for instance things

5 like battery chargers or commercial pre-rinse spray

6 valves, those things that whatever Congress chose to

7 put them in the substantive provision without putting

8 them into this list of covered products. 

9 But we read that as defining the world of

10 the covered product that Congress chose to create. 

11 So in this case that would be refrigerators absent

12 those that don't have compressors. The -- what you

13 are suggesting to be perfectly honest is akin to and

14 without boring everybody else with the legal niceties

15 of this, a case you are very well aware of because

16 you were on brief along with us that we lost in the

17 DC Circuit where we sort of did something very akin

18 to what you are suggesting right now and the DC

19 Circuit said that was not the way to go about adding

20 coverage for new products, that the way to do it

21 under 20 -- under paragraph 20 of that same section

22 where you go through and make a determination if a
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1 product meets a particular set of criteria under 20,

2 being that we make a determination that it is the

3 statute -- you know it fits the purpose of the

4 statute and meets certain threshold use criteria.

5 And so because it is that list of covered

6 products which is a defined term, we don't believe we

7 have the ability to go anything outside of that, of

8 what the world of Congress established in the statute

9 as the covered product. To add something -- calling

10 it the same thing as that covered product and saying

11 it is within the same rubric as that covered product. 

12 If we want to add coverage given the Hearth product

13 case we are in 20.

14 MR. BALLO: I don't disagree that we are

15 in 20 for the purposes of jumping through the hoops

16 to get into the realm of being covered but once you

17 are a covered product, why do you need to maintain

18 the distinction between compressor and non-compressor

19 refrigerators? In other words, you don't necessarily

20 stay in 20, you can be merged into 2, the key is

21 meeting those thresholds to become a covered product.

22 MR. COHEN: Except that 20 is any other
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1 type of product so it couldn't -- if it's an

2 other-type of product it couldn't be something that

3 has already been listed above, it would have to be

4 something different than what was listed above, so

5 you know if terminology is the issue it doesn't have

6 to be called miscellaneous refrigeration equipment,

7 it could be called -- we can call it microphones, we

8 can call it whatever we want and then just define it

9 to include what are the types of products that we are

10 talking about. 

11 But they would be different from the thing

12 that Congress set down already as covered products. 

13 And that matters for a variety of reasons beyond just

14 this conversation but it matters for things like the

15 pre-emption provision, because if something is a

16 covered product already the pre-emption would apply

17 before we add coverage so there is a variety of other

18 things that kick in under the statute if it's sort of

19 included in that world of Congressionally described

20 covered products.

21 MR. BALLO: So my understanding is in the

22 pumps reg neg the lead time that applies, the 5 year
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1 lead time under 325(L) which I have looked and it

2 does apply to pumps via Section 345. The Department

3 I understand is moving away from that 5 year lead

4 time because there was a consensus among the group

5 and I'm wondering if the Department would do

6 something similar here if there is a consensus in the

7 group to create the new covered product,

8 non-compressor refrigerators, essentially identically

9 to the way an equal compressor or refrigerators are

10 treated under the statute.

11 MR. COHEN: Yeah so that's not quite what

12 happened in the pumps negotiation. What you are

13 referring to, the 5 year lead time is actually

14 applicable to products added under 20. If you look

15 at 6295(L) it is referring -- it actually currently

16 refers back to 19 which is nonsensical because when

17 Congress amended the statute and added 19 they forgot

18 to change the other provision but put that aside for

19 a moment.

20 It applies to new products added under 20. 

21 Pumps are actually already listed by Congress as a

22 type of covered equipment. So as a result we weren't
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1 adding coverage, so even though the -- that's why we

2 love EPCA's lawyers right? Even though the crosswalk

3 provision would put you back into a new covered

4 product under the commercial category since pumps was

5 already there it wasn't the new covered product under

6 the commercial category and so L didn't apply. 

7 MR. BALLO: But what would be the purpose

8 of applying L to the 6311 paragraph 1, electric

9 motors and pumps if the 5 year lead time doesn't

10 apply? Why would --

11 MR. COHEN: There are other provisions

12 actually as well in L in addition to the lead time. 

13 There are some usage provisions and what not that are

14 also there. 

15 MR. BALLO: So then there is no way for us

16 to get at this issue of --

17 MR. COHEN: The 5 year, the lead time

18 issue?

19 MR. BALLO: Well there is just no way to

20 merge the standards so that we can coherently address

21 the regulation of these two repeating products.

22 MR. COHEN: With other refrigeration
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1 products, things that would be refrigerators under

2 one?

3 MR. BALLO: Yes.

4 MR. COHEN: So that's more of a logistical

5 thing, administrative, that's more of an

6 administrative or logistical thing with the program

7 right to just sync up rulemakings to work together. 

8 I'm not sure that that requires a legal solution.

9 MR. BALLO: Well can a compressor be a

10 consideration in the engineering analysis to improve

11 the efficiency of a non-compressor refrigerator?

12 MR. COHEN: Well, no, because by

13 definition it would be a different product. But you

14 could do the rulemakings together, in parallel.

15 MR. BALLO: Ideally we would like the same

16 standard to apply though.

17 MR. COHEN: Well that's a different

18 question than the legal question you are asking now

19 right, that's a question you are asking now about

20 what the outcome should be of this negotiation and

21 that is yet to be determined by everybody in the

22 room.
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1 MR. BALLO: But if the consensus of the

2 group was that we would like the same standards to

3 apply it seems like you are telling us we can't get

4 there.

5 MR. COHEN: I don't think that's what I am

6 saying. I think what I am saying is you could --

7 that could be the outcome of this group and you would

8 have to sync up the rulemakings, that may not happen

9 in the first rulemaking, it might take you know

10 rulemaking, whatever, down the line but there is no

11 reason why you couldn't sync up because of the 6 year

12 look back could apply to both for the same time.

13 MR. BALLO: But it is not just the syncing

14 up of the standards it is actually the level of the

15 standard would be the same.

16 MR. COHEN: I would just think that's a

17 negotiation point really not a legal point.

18 MR. BALLO: Okay.

19 MS. MAUER: This is Johanna, I think the

20 issue is so -- I think we would all maybe be happy to

21 agree to applying the same standards to these

22 products but I don't know how DOE would feel about
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1 that, if you are saying you can't. So non-compressor

2 products are inherently less efficient than

3 compressor-based products so you are saying you can't

4 consider a switch to vapor compression technology in

5 the analysis would your analysis be able to support

6 the working group agreeing to a standard for

7 non-compressor refrigerators that's equivalent to the

8 --

9 MR. COHEN: Again you are talking

10 technology that is way beyond my realm. To me that

11 is an issue of working through the numbers with the

12 analysts and trying to figure out what the answer is

13 to that question. I don't know that sitting here now

14 right, that's something that has to be discussed and

15 worked through. There's no legal answer to that.

16 MR. BALLO: But the maximum feasible

17 standard level for a non-compressor refrigerator is a

18 standard level that essentially would reflect the use

19 of a compressor in that machine so you would be

20 adopting a standard for non-compressor refrigerators

21 that wouldn't say you have to have a compressor but

22 realistically how else would you get there.
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1 MR. COHEN: I don't know the answer to

2 that question either but that's -- you know to me it

3 sounds like what you are trying to do is trying to

4 figure out a way to define a category so as to limit

5 the scope of what the answer could be in terms of the

6 standard, that doesn't seem like that's a legal issue

7 again. That's sort of trying to kind of push the

8 negotiating point through a different approach.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Stephen?

10 MR. SCHAEFER: I don't know the total

11 background of it with ice makers for commercial ice

12 makers, we kind of do that in a way where you are not

13 saying that it has to be a specific type of

14 condensing unit but you have self-contained, you have

15 air water, you have ice making heads, air water and

16 you have remotes, and you also have remotes with

17 compressors and condensers, remotes with compressors

18 -- condensers only.

19 So maybe that's something that can be done within the

20 refrigerator category is to categorize whether it is

21 you know, what type of condensing is. 

22 I don't know the history of exactly how
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1 that got started by is there some way we can try to

2 dive into this with these residential refrigerators?

3 MR. HAGERMAN: Did you have a question for

4 us?

5 MR. SCHAEFER: Yes I was wondering if that

6 -- the way that the commercial ice makers subdivided

7 the condensing units, could that be done here where

8 we are not just saying well there's a refrigerator --

9 oh but in this other category there's a refrigerator

10 without a compressor, we do that with ice makers. We

11 put remotes with compressors and condensers on the

12 roof. We put you know, different types, whether it

13 is self-contained air or water, you know -- about 6

14 different categories on the same one. Can we do that

15 here or are we held to try to work that out later on?

16 MR. COHEN: So you are asking a good

17 question about product categories and how you define

18 product categories going forward in this negotiation. 

19 There are different ways that we define product

20 categories by capacity, by performance, by different

21 utilities that are provided to the user of that

22 device. So that's something that could be talked
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1 through but we don't do it by technology. We don't

2 set standards or product categories by take a furnace

3 for instance, a condensing furnace versus a

4 non-condensing furnace. 

5 MR. RAMIREZ: I am going to open up the

6 mic for Jenn and then I will come back to Charlie, so

7 Jenn can you hear us? Try unmuting your phone Jenn? 

8 All right so Jenn just try a minute when you get that

9 worked out, Charlie?

10 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. But I

11 think that is exactly what we are doing here is going

12 to define the category by technology. One technology

13 and one category and everything else would be in a

14 different category.

15 MR. COHEN: So it is a little different

16 because the statute actually as opposed to us

17 creating it the statute has created a technological

18 difference. And then you have, obviously we live

19 with that technological difference created in law,

20 that's different than this kind.

21 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, then look here is

22 the next question on the technological background
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1 searches and all the numbers generated by your

2 consultants there's inherently at this time the

3 compressor-based products are the most efficient and

4 if we run 9 compressor-based product as a category,

5 that category has to be only -- all the statistics

6 have to be based off of that product information

7 correct?

8 MR. COHEN: Yes if it is a separate

9 product yes.

10 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon again and

11 then therefore we would be seeing a very different

12 standard because technology is different and this

13 time the technology efficiencies favor the part that

14 is already in the regulations. 

15 MR. COHEN: I take your word for that, I

16 don't know that.

17 MS. CLEARY: This is Jenn, can you guys

18 hear me now?

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes go ahead Jenn.

20 MS. CLEARY: Okay so going off of what

21 Charlie said I mean I guess and Joanna's earlier

22 point I just feel like this is sort of negating the
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1 intent of covering this product and so Dan I

2 certainly understand where you are coming from, your

3 explanation of DOE's interpretation was very helpful. 

4 I guess I'm just concerned where that leaves us if

5 anywhere. 

6 MR. COHEN: Again I can't answer that

7 question, it seems to me that's the purpose of this

8 discussion. We can only tell you how we read the law

9 and give you our parameters for you know how that

10 affects what you can discuss but then you have to go

11 and discuss it.

12 MS. CLEARY: Understood, this is Jenn

13 Cleary. My comment was sort of directed to the group

14 as a whole as well.

15 MR. BALLO: I guess -- this is Tim with

16 Earthjustice. If the group goes ahead and recommends

17 to DOE that the standards for these two products be

18 identical, that they be implemented on the same

19 schedule the Department's position that you will go

20 ahead and propose that you know, absent significant

21 adverse comment adopted as a final rule or is the

22 Department's position that we cannot do that.
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1 MR. COHEN: So on this one we do have the

2 5 year lead time, the question may be when we can

3 sync up those cycles I guess, those rulemakings.

4 MR. BALLO: What if the recommendation of

5 the group for the standard was that they shall --

6 that they shall adopt the next refrigerator standard

7 on the schedule established in the refrigerator

8 rulemaking?

9 MR. COHEN: So now you are talking about a

10 different scope of negotiation for this body, I'm not

11 sure what ASRAC does with that. 

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Joe, Joe that would be a

13 recommendation to the secretary then. 

14 MR. COHEN: Yeah remember because the

15 working group -- it has to go through the parent

16 committee first.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: So that would be a

18 recommendation to them then. Roland do you have

19 something?

20 MR. MARCINIAK: Yes I guess my concern is

21 what was voiced by Charlie yesterday though is you

22 start to head down a complimentary path and as things
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1 aren't quite synced. You start to also get a public

2 opinion that these cooled cabinets or these hybrids

3 are the same as refrigerators like you have in hotels

4 where you have a different perception that the public

5 has of what the product's performance is, if it is

6 perishable goods that's a whole different conception

7 the public has.

8 And I wouldn't like these confused as we

9 head down the road as to you know are they being

10 tested the same, are they being in the same category

11 so I am kind of concerned with the questions brought

12 up yesterday about a complimentary path that you are

13 calling it now but as it diverses into its own

14 structures, its own committee, its own rulemaking

15 changes that this starts to take on a little

16 different -- a little different emphasis because the

17 technology right now can't keep up with the

18 compressor-based product, so that would be my

19 concern.

20 Which again leads back to the question of

21 having it in the same category, you have much more

22 control, you have the same people that are in that
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1 industry and have been in that industry controlling

2 how this is presented, how these terminologies are

3 listed and shown you know as these test procedures

4 and such are developed so I guess that's the concern

5 I have.

6 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen again. 

7 Understood but we have to live with the statute the

8 way we have the statute and so you know in some ways

9 those are issues that are -- it's only the extra

10 legal right they are not really -- we can't change

11 the law to accommodate those, we would have to

12 accommodate those within the existing law. 

13 MR. RAMIREZ: So are there any other

14 questions or comments for Dan?

15 Okay Joanna?

16 MS. MAUER: Dan I was just wondering, I

17 didn't understand your comment about preemption

18 implications of amending the refrigerator definition

19 to be broader.

20 MR. COHEN: So the way the statute's

21 preemption applies to any covered project as a

22 covered product whether there are standards or not. 
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1 So if it is a covered product preemption applies at

2 that point right so if it is within that world of

3 covered products -- anything on that list in 6292

4 preemption applies whether we have standards.

5 So for instance televisions are in that

6 list, there are no standards for televisions. 

7 Preemption applies on the televisions. 

8 MS. MAUER: I guess I'm not following --

9 so either way the Department has to cover these

10 additional products?

11 MR. COHEN: Right.

12 MS. MAUER: After which preemption would

13 apply. I'm not following why --

14 MR. COHEN: What they are trying to do is

15 Tim's question about could you -- if it's a covered

16 product under 1, but you are adding it in instead of

17 saying that it is under 1 through a process under 20

18 the way I was understanding Tim's description of that

19 was since 1 is already a covered product it's a

20 covered product and as a result preemption would

21 apply. You can't -- it's sort of a circular problem. 

22 It's in your -- instead of saying it's already a
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1 covered product because it is listed in 1, it is part

2 of 1 and therefore preemption applies.

3 Or were you adding it for 20 so therefore

4 it is not part of 1, preemption wouldn't apply until

5 we added coverage in that way but you have created an

6 ambiguity the way I was understanding Tim's and maybe

7 I misunderstood Tim's suggestion but the way I was

8 understanding it was you were sort of kind of trying

9 to back door something into 1 as having being part of

10 1 because 1 is not a definition of any form.

11 MR. BALLO: Well I wasn't saying that it

12 had always been part of 1 just that once you

13 determine its covered you can make it part of 1 going

14 forward so preemption only applies from the time you

15 determine it meets the coverage thresholds and is a

16 covered product.

17 MR. COHEN: Well right so okay, it's a

18 better understanding I guess that would be right if

19 we could do that, the problem is it is any other

20 product in 20. 

21 MR. RAMIREZ: So what I am understanding

22 is that the request from the Committee to put in
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1 non-compressors into the current grouping of

2 refrigeration, refrigerated freezers and freezers is

3 not possible. And m--

4 MR. HAGERMAN: I think that you know,

5 given some discussion yesterday what we know of today

6 as non-compressor refrigerators after the discussion

7 just become cooled cabinets right because they can't

8 maintain the temperatures, right is that --

9 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I don't

10 believe that's -- I think that's not what the

11 Committee is looking at. I think that just because

12 there may or may not be a product at this time that

13 can do that doesn't mean we don't want to cover it as

14 part of the project because we are looking at

15 non-compressor equipment and if we would do that,

16 that would be another hole left in the system which

17 would have non-compressor refrigerators exempted from

18 coverage and that would leave California and several

19 other groups that would be then able to use

20 preemption and get around it.

21 But the other categories then would be

22 preempted by this activity but the minute somebody
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1 came up with a final product that could fit the

2 category then they are home, they can do anything

3 they want with it because unless some other body

4 regulates it, it is not covered under the DOE's

5 information.

6 MR. COHEN: Well just purely on the legal

7 without suggesting an outcome, the Committee could

8 suggest to the secretary to cover the product but not

9 set standards for it, then preemption would apply in

10 that case once coverage was added.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: So again I think that the

12 answer was given. I understand it's not the answer

13 that the Committee was hoping for but at least it

14 provides us some guidance for discussion, would

15 everyone agree with that? So any other questions,

16 Charlie?

17 MR. HON: One other question. Under that

18 same scenario these cooled cabinets that we are

19 discussing now which are not compressor-based

20 systems, the analytics then have to go through only

21 the product that is covered under that discussion

22 correct?
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1 MR. COHEN: The cooled cabinets, how are

2 you defining the cooled cabinets, whatever, that

3 would have to be analyzed.

4 MR. HON: As a separate category, we could

5 not use the fact that a compressor-based system was

6 inherently much more efficient because it is already

7 covered under a different portion of the law?

8 (MR. HAGERMAN AND MR. COHEN CONFERRING)

9 MR. COHEN: Yeah, this is Dan Cohen again. 

10 Not understanding the definition that you have

11 already been discussing, that includes both so you

12 would look at both in that category given that you

13 have both are in there.

14 MR. HON: Right, okay but we would still

15 have the hold then for the non-compressor

16 refrigerator whatever that category actually ends up

17 as a title because --

18 MR. HAGERMAN: As was said before

19 non-compressor refrigerators, are there any in the

20 market right now? It's hard for us to do the

21 analysis on products that don't exist right? It

22 doesn't mean -- I'm sorry, it's hard for us to set
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1 standards on products that don't exist. It's easy

2 for us to find coverage for it right?

3 MR. HON: Correct.

4 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Bill?

5 MR. BROWN: This is Bill from GE. I mean

6 you really don't know whether these products exist or

7 not. Your sample size is really low on what you

8 tested so there may be products out there that can

9 meet this temperature, I don't know about them but

10 there could be.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes we have an open

12 invitation to everybody if you know of products, just

13 like if you know any thermal-electric manufacturers

14 we need to reach out to to participate please give us

15 those names.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah so I am guessing that

17 if you folks are not aware of one that it's pretty

18 hard for us to have those discussions without you all

19 bringing some of that information to the table right? 

20 Jenn?

21 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, it is hard for

22 us to bring this to the table because no one in this
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1 room makes them so I don't think anyone is saying

2 that they do or they don't exist, they are just

3 saying we don't know, the right people who would know

4 aren't here so this is a hard discussion to have

5 without the players at the table.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: And again we could add any

7 members that you all see that might be able to help

8 with that, you let us know and we will go through the

9 process to make them available if they want to join

10 us.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman DOE. At the

12 first public meeting I think there were some

13 absorption folks on the phone, they did not submit to

14 ASRAC their names for the working group, so they are

15 aware of the regulations ongoing.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Anything else for Dan then? 

17 You are welcome to hang around, I know how much you

18 probably enjoyed that but if not thank you Dan, okay. 

19 All right, so with that discussion and clarity what

20 do you all want to do with this definition? 

21 MR. HAGERMAN: And it's all right to say

22 that you don't know and you want to regroup as a
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1 group for a little while, we are happy to leave the

2 room and let you all talk amongst yourselves as

3 manufacturers.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Dick how much time would you

5 want for them? All right so the manufacturers being

6 the larger group it would make sense to let you use

7 the room. I'm sorry you said about 15 or 20 minutes?

8 MR. HAGERMAN: We'll just say we will be

9 back here at 11 o'clock, that gives you 30 minutes in

10 case you want to call people, you can call people.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah so Tim do you want to

12 meet with other folks? Yeah, if the other groups

13 want to meet we have the room in the back, I think

14 it's standing room only, I don't see any chairs back

15 there but we could probably get some chairs in there

16 if you like them. 

17 We'll try to figure out to get you some

18 chairs back there. So we will all come back at 11

19 o'clock, thank you.

20 (BREAK)

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so now that everyone is

22 back we will go ahead and get started. And I just
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1 want to let everyone know that I believe George

2 Parsons may have been listening in yesterday. There

3 was a family emergency that he was attending to but

4 he is on the webinar today so he is still a Committee

5 member -- a working group member and we are unmuting

6 his mic so that maybe from time to time he will chime

7 in with some comment, okay. 

8 So after a little break I guess I will

9 open the floor up for any discussion that the group

10 wants to have, but ultimately we are going to have to

11 refocus back on the definition and see what you all

12 want to do with that. Is there anything that the

13 groups want to share from their caucus time? Yeah,

14 Tim?

15 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earthjustice. 

16 While we were talking over the break, Joanna had an

17 idea that may be a convenient work around for us for

18 the problem that we have been discussing or it may be

19 an opportunity to beat two dead horses at the same

20 time. 

21 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I ask just a general

22 question. What do we have against dead horses?
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1 MR. BALLO: Nothing, just beating them. 

2 So earlier I mentioned the issue of the non-integral

3 compressor refrigerators. If one were to define a

4 non-compressor refrigerator as a non-integral

5 compressor refrigerator the non-integrated compressor

6 would then become a technology option to improve the

7 performance of thermal-electric and absorption

8 products, potentially getting them up to a standard

9 level that is roughly equivalent to vapor

10 compression, traditional refrigerators.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Say it again?

12 MR. BALLO: If the non-compressor

13 refrigerator is really only a non-integrated

14 compressor refrigerator, which is consistent with how

15 EPCA defines vapor -- the traditional vapor

16 compression refrigerator then when you are trying to

17 find the right standard for a non-integrated

18 compressor refrigerator you can consider the

19 technology option of a you know, remotely located

20 separate cabinet for the compressor.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: I normally like creativity

22 right, that helps to spark ideas. 
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1 What does the group think of that? You know I guess

2 maybe another question I have for you then is then

3 what does that do with what we were discussing? Does

4 that put that into that section 20 of --

5 MR. BALLO: No because EPCA is very

6 specific it applies to integrated compressor

7 refrigerators and these would be non-integrated

8 compressor refrigerators so I think it's wholly

9 consistent with 322.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just going to ask some

11 questions. Do you mean integrated from the point of

12 manufacturer? I guess not in the physical box, so in

13 other words if something has a 3:26 from the point

14 of manufacture, compressor that is like sitting on

15 this little shelf next to their refrigerator, they

16 are on the market -- you would want that to go in a

17 different bucket? Essentially you are saying remotes

18 for residential applications -- for consumer

19 applications, that's how I -- remote compressors.

20 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna, I guess it

21 maybe this is a question right -- because there is a

22 product on the market with something above the
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1 cabinet is that covered by the current standards?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am going to decline to

3 answer that one. It's yeah -- on the record let's

4 put it that way. I would say that that's something

5 the Department is working on. Another idea to think

6 about I think might be what if you just treat all

7 non-integral compressor based systems as cooled

8 cabinets? Just period -- irrespective of their

9 temperatures, so if it is not a refrigerator, it is a

10 cooled cabinet, that would get you your same -- I

11 think that would get you your same answer.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: I guess if you relooked at

13 6292 it doesn't say anything about integral

14 compressors, it says compressor and condenser unit as

15 an integral part of the cabinet. 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah so they are making

17 reference to a specific product that has the

18 compressor in a separate box on top of their

19 refrigerator cabinet and they are saying well DOE

20 what is your interpretation of whether that specific

21 product meets the definition of the refrigerator.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: And if it doesn't would

2 you consider that in this other bucket such that

3 compressor based systems like this would be a

4 technology option for vapor compression did I get it

5 right?

6 MR. HAGERMAN: It depends on what your

7 definition of integral part meant. Ultimately it

8 depends on what the definition of "is" is right?

9 MR. BALLO: Well I don't think we know the

10 answer so that's why I'm asking.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Why do we need to know the

12 answer to that today for the larger MREF rule? Is

13 that a threshold, I don't think that's a threshold

14 for the rest of the rule is it?

15 MR. BALLO: No it's just a way to address

16 the issue of products that may meet the temperature

17 requirements to be a refrigerator but that don't have

18 a compressor and aren't included in the current

19 definition.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: But isn't the fundamental,

21 the more fundamental thing that you guys see that you

22 want DOE's definitions and product classes to be
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1 technology neutral so that you want products with the

2 same functionality and/or utility to the consumer to

3 be treated in the same product class irrespective of

4 refrigeration technology and as long as you find a

5 way to do that don't you think that would pretty much

6 work?

7 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I guess maybe

8 I'd get back to Dick's earlier comment about perhaps

9 we can come up with some creative way to kind of

10 address the market today to get the outcome that we

11 are looking for. Dick mentioned magnetic

12 refrigeration that you know, that may be a real

13 refrigerator is not cooled cabinets you know, it

14 seems like that technology should be considered a

15 refrigerator not a cooled cabinet. 

16 MR. HAGERMAN: Is there a possibility that

17 we could like I don't want to suggest this in a

18 negative way but kind of park that and see what other

19 people have been talking about since the break? I

20 don't want to lose what you are talking about just

21 let it bake a little bit.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: So what does that do for the
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1 definition? Would that impact the definition? Let's

2 look at the definition now and what do we have to do

3 to -- well based on the discussion that we have had

4 so far does this definition work and if not what do

5 we need to do to modify it to make it work, Jenn?

6 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary I think based on

7 Dan's discussion maybe we have no choice but to

8 accept this definition so I think based on the

9 information we got from Dan it sounds like this isn't

10 really something we can negotiate. I think we have

11 to accept number 2. 

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Could you speak a little

13 louder, let me see a show of thumbs if everyone is

14 okay with this definition for the refrigerator?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: How about one caveat we

16 haven't discussed number 3 yet and I think 3 needs to

17 be discussed a little. I don't think DOE is ready to

18 agree with number 3.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Right and Charlie agrees.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: But I think Charlie

22 understands, I think everybody here understands the
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1 intent of what 3 is trying to get at, the exclusion

2 of commercial units right?

3 MS. CLEARY: So are we right now just

4 talking about what is in red or are we talking about

5 only number 2?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: All the way up to 2,

7 through 2.

8 MS. CLEARY: Well except that we still

9 need to talk about 1, the hybrid portion of that so

10 that's why I was saying maybe what's in red.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: What is the hybrid portion

12 of that?

13 MS. CLEARY: The last sentence after 90

14 degree F ambient appears a second time a refrigerator

15 also may include one or more seller compartments,

16 blah, blah, blah.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: Would it help if he bolded

18 this out real quick, all the sentence in bullets and

19 then we can go through each bullet? It's a

20 mechanical thing.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: So after that second -- all

22 right so looking at the first bullet is there any
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1 question on that first bullet? Let me see a show of

2 thumbs if everyone is okay with that first bullet?

3 (Panel holding up thumbs).

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay and I'm sorry, George

5 are you online?

6 MR. PARSONS: Yeah I'm online.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Does that first bullet look

8 okay to you?

9 MR. PARSONS: That is fine.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay then let's look at the

11 second bullet. Any questions on the second bullet? 

12 Let's see a show of thumbs if you are okay with the

13 second bullet.

14 (No thumbs down)

15 MR. RAMIREZ: I don't see any thumbs down

16 so we are good on the second bullet. Now on the

17 third bullet, yeah I'm sorry hey George, if you

18 object to anything just go ahead and speak up as I

19 ask to see the thumbs okay. 

20 MR. PARSONS: I will do that.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay thanks. So the third

22 bullet -- I'm asking for discussion first then a vote
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1 because I think this was the part that Jenn was

2 saying that we might need some discussion.

3 MS. CLEARY: Yeah I think this is a

4 separate issue so we might just want to table this

5 bullet unless we are trying to vote on everything

6 that is on this slide if that is the case then I

7 think we need to discuss that.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's see what the issue is

9 with it, so if you wouldn't mind can you tell us what

10 the concern is on that bullet?

11 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, I don't mind but

12 I think it's a --

13 MR. RAMIREZ: A monster?

14 MS. CLEARY: Maybe it's like a whole

15 separate type issue so I would worry that we would

16 get side-tracked from what we are trying to finalize

17 now, if the group wants me to I'm happy to.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's table it, let's come

19 back, you convinced me okay.

20 So then the however section number 1 let's see a show

21 of thumbs if we are okay with number 1?

22 (Panel showing thumbs up)
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay number 2, any

2 discussion or questions on number 2? Then let's see

3 a show of thumbs if you are okay with number 2.

4 (Panel showing thumbs up)

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah and I see a lot of

6 sideway thumbs and I'm taking it right, because I

7 think we have had a lot of discussion on that one and

8 I think everyone understands why they are like that.

9 MR. MOUW: If I can -- this is Nate from

10 Whirlpool, I think number 2 is what we are sort of

11 voting on independently but it is somewhat dependent

12 on what we think about non-compressor refrigerators

13 as well so that is all one discussion I think that's

14 why my thumb was sideways because voting on this

15 independent of a discussion about non-compressor

16 refrigerators is sort of only discussing half of a

17 bigger issue.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yep, thank you. Number 3,

19 what was the concern with number 3 okay Charlie?

20 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing. 

21 There's -- one of the standards ANSI/NSF 7-2009 is a

22 standard which is not exclusive to commercial
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1 refrigerators, it could be applied into this category

2 and at that time it would take a unit which should be

3 regulated under all the other categories and if you

4 are willing to pay an extra few thousand dollars to

5 get it certified under ANSI Standard 7 which could be

6 nothing more than construction characteristics

7 clean-ability -- you could then circumvent and have

8 your product exempted from the energy consumption

9 standards.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: And is this something that

11 this group is charged to deal with?

12 MR. HON: I think this group is charged to

13 deal with making sure that every product which should

14 be regulated is covered under the same context and if

15 you are willing to spend a few dollars one-time

16 expense, you may be able to exempt yourself from the

17 category.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right then what do we

19 need to do with this then?

20 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon again. I

21 think we need to really consider and we can do it one

22 of several ways -- number one is how is the product
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1 marketed because NSF 7 is traditionally used in

2 commercial food storage applications because it

3 contains a lot of different pieces of information,

4 clean-ability, temperature ranges, lots of other

5 things in there but because of that if you fall under

6 the energy standards for commercial refrigerators

7 then you have a much more lenient power consumption

8 allowance and if you are intending to market to the

9 home, by this exemption it takes it away from the

10 possibility, it changes the status in a lot of ways.

11 It doesn't necessarily preclude it from

12 the Federal Trade Commission's intervention if they

13 wish to consider it as part of the home refrigerator

14 market but it takes it away from the Department of

15 Energy's jurisdiction under their residential

16 category.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: So you want to make it

18 specific that this is for commercial?

19 MR. HON: Yes.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: And how could we -- how

21 could we modify this so that that is clear? And I'm

22 throwing this out to all the brains in the room,
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1 right -- how do we do this, Mary?

2 MS. DANE: I would suggest changing or to

3 and, this is Mary from Traulsen. 

4 MR. RAMIREZ: I love simple fixes.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: So now you have to pay 20

6 thousand dollars.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Is that a simple fix,

8 Charlie?

9 MR. HON: That does a couple of things. 

10 Number one is UL does have a standard 250 which is

11 residential refrigeration and as such they would not,

12 if this was in the 250 category they would register

13 it under 250, they wouldn't register it under 471. 

14 MR. MARCINIAK: Dual listings though just

15 250 and 471.

16 MR. HAGERMAN: So now you are 30 thousand

17 dollars.

18 MR. HON: Because UL 471 does cover

19 outside equipment and 250 does not. It's a big issue

20 right now because it is very specific in the wording

21 of the standard and that's why we are trying to clean

22 this mess up because under 250 there's no outside
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1 application but they allow listing under 471 for

2 residential which is applied under the outside

3 category because of certain special testing that has

4 to be done to verify that it is electrically safe in

5 a condition where there could be rain involved.

6 So it can be done and that is one of the

7 danger factors of this particular -- both of those

8 clauses, it is still going to cost you a whole lot of

9 money if you do them both but you can still

10 circumvent the intent of the regulation.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: So do we need to add a third

12 bullet in there?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Could I ask a question

14 real quick just because if we have and there does

15 this mean then that outdoor fridges are commercial? 

16 Or would this mean that outdoor fridges are

17 residential or consumer products -- and then I'll

18 tell you what DOE's opinion is.

19 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. Talking to

20 UL about this very topic a few weeks ago, UL does not

21 separate because of the clauses -- the add-on clauses

22 in 250 for outdoor units they would be tested under
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1 471. They are really not classifying it as a

2 commercial piece of equipment they are just testing

3 because the UL 250 does not have the special test

4 requirements built into it.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I interpret that as

6 saying you essentially would move outdoor --

7 otherwise outdoor consumer product fridges to

8 commercial equipment with the way the definition is

9 structured now.

10 MR. HON: That is what I am afraid it is

11 saying yes and that's why --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I don't think that was

13 DOE's intent.

14 MR. HON: Well there's a lot of questions

15 there because and/or no matter what happens you are

16 still getting results where you could circumvent by

17 moving into commercial one way or another.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

19 MR. HON: You may take more steps but it

20 still could be done.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: And perhaps there's a

22 better way to do this and it does not involve the
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1 standards or it involves the culmination of the

2 standards and a 3 and 4 perhaps. I think what DOE --

3 if you look at the definition of commercial

4 refrigeration equipment and the statute the first

5 thing is it is not a consumer product so you have to

6 go to the consumer product section first and if it

7 otherwise meets the definition of the refrigerator it

8 is in the consumer product section. 

9 It falls in that category and I think we

10 believe that there are a good number of products out

11 there that are marketed for I would say commercial

12 applications that would actually meet the consumer

13 product definition of a refrigerator, and that's what

14 this is trying to clear up. How do you make that

15 distinction between consumer and commercial and while

16 we propose something we did get a lot of comments

17 that made us pause and rethink how we approach that

18 so obviously we are open to ideas but I think we

19 believe you fall into the consumer section first and

20 it's only if you don't meet a couple of these things

21 that you would then perhaps go to commercial

22 equipment, it is not just being marketed for
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1 commercial applications that get to there. I really

2 got progress --

3 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, I have a

4 question because I don't know the answer. 

5 MR. RAMIREZ: It's okay to pause to think.

6 MR. HON: Because certain -- are all

7 commercial, excuse me all residential refrigeration

8 products covered under the Consumer Product Safety

9 Commission and the FTC.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So FTC is going to be

11 based on our scope of coverage so FTC's labeling

12 disclosures are going to be based on the coverage on

13 the regulatory definitions as established by DOE. So

14 they are going to go hand in hand so you probably

15 could use that as the distinguishing factor. I don't

16 know the answer to the CPSC question though but I

17 don't know how like outdoor refrigerators as one

18 major I would say category that there are a lot of

19 questions around and there's a couple of other things

20 though. 

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn?

22 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, I can't answer
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1 for CPSC obviously but yes the residential

2 refrigerators are consumer products and therefore are

3 covered by the Consumer Product Safety Commission, I

4 just don't know where CPSC would say that scope and

5 it's not like they have a definition for covered

6 refrigerators, you know they just cover all consumer

7 products so I don't think that would help us out

8 here.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so the "and" doesn't

10 quite cut it, now does it help and do we still need

11 to add something?

12 MR. HON: Could we add another sentence to

13 that?

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Would it be a separate

15 bullet, number 3?

16 MR. HON: Bullet number 3, this is Charlie

17 Hon, which says in the unit -- let's see, the

18 category doesn't fit there. It doesn't fit under

19 certified under -- see what I am saying? It would

20 have to be its own separate stand-alone.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Number 4?

22 MR. HON: Yes, which would say -- let's
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1 see, the term does not include any product that is

2 marketed as a commercial refrigeration product. 

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's throw it up there and

4 see how we make it work, all right.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean that's the same

6 marketing get around intent and so I think that's the

7 issue that we have now, that people market for

8 commercial applications and residential applications

9 but that marketing doesn't get them out of meeting

10 the definition of refrigerator in our regulatory and

11 thus being considered a consumer product.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: What about "used as"?

13 MR. BROWN: Well maybe -- this is Bill

14 from GE, maybe you can attack it the other way, what

15 makes the product a commercial product?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not a consumer

17 product. You see how we got here?

18 MR. BROWN: Well help me with this, then

19 how do I become a commercial product?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: You are not a consumer

21 product.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Then what's a consumer
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1 product.

2 MR. BROWN: It sounds like a consumer

3 product is everything.

4 MR. MARCINIAK: There is a difference

5 between the residential and commercial, not just the

6 testing the rain testing, I know there's a different

7 cord connection that's needed so there is a technical

8 difference between a residential and a commercial

9 product, not to say that others don't market it as

10 residential even though it has a commercial type

11 connector because they do but there is a distinction

12 between commercial and residential from a technical

13 perspective.

14 MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler from

15 DOE. Consumer product is also defined under EPCA so

16 I don't know if that brings a lot of explanation to

17 what it is but it is something that is -- something

18 distributed in commerce for personal use. That's the

19 short version but it is a defined term that's

20 helpful.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think this one is

22 key to impeding progress of this rulemaking is
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1 something you know that people can think about and

2 something that I think DOE was trying to clarify with

3 regards to cleaning up the refrigerator definition as

4 a whole. It doesn't impact progress pulling forward

5 with you know cooled cabinets and the larger MREF I

6 think rule as a whole, it's really going to be

7 whether something falls into the refrigerator bucket

8 or ultimately falls into the CRE bucket, not

9 necessarily impacting MREF negotiations moving

10 forward. 

11 So if people want to think about this we

12 would love your ideas and opinions but obviously

13 don't want to impede progress here, that's all.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie?

15 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Basically

16 it sounds like this is a problem that DOE is facing

17 in multi-levels of activity so we may be able to give

18 advice in the future on how to help fix it but it

19 sounds like DOE is striving to fix this problem

20 themselves the same way as we are trying to

21 understand how to fix it and they don't have an

22 answer at this moment either.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay then yes, so let's put

2 a strike through number 4 and let's replace the "and"

3 and the "or" just so that way it goes back to the

4 original, Jenn?

5 MS. CLEARY: I would suggest that since

6 this isn't integral to what this group was defined to

7 tackle which is the MREF negotiation that this would

8 be something that would better be addressed through

9 the rulemaking process that's already ongoing, DOE

10 has already received comments on this and you know

11 commenters have the ability to provide input.

12 I would imagine DOE would take and put

13 after the fact as well so I guess I would move that

14 we don't discuss this issue further in this group. 

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay then what about going

16 back to the last bullet, the bullet right above the

17 however, is that something that we need to discuss

18 now in order for it to move forward or is that

19 something that is well we are better off just leaving

20 alone for now and moving forward with what we have?

21 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, I think we need

22 to discuss it during this negotiation process,
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1 whether that happens now or later I mean it may flow

2 logically as we move on to discuss hybrid products, I

3 think that is what this issue is about and how those

4 products should be defined and so like I said whether

5 we talk about it now or later it doesn't really

6 matter to me, I don't know what others think.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Any other feedback on that? 

8 Then let me -- I'm sorry go ahead Chris.

9 MR. KUCH: Chris Kuch from Edison, just

10 one minor detail, if we stick with "and" then one or

11 more should be striked out.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah right now we put it

13 back, are you talking about between 1 and 2 there?

14 MR. KUCH: Yeah, the beginning of

15 statement 3 it's just a minor detail.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh I see.

17 MR. KUCH: It's just that this is

18 certified under one or more, I think that should be

19 down one yeah -- if we stick with the word "and".

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay yes so we are going to

21 -- we'll leave that alone for now since we put it

22 back to the "or" just to put it back in place. It
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1 sounds like we are going to end up leaving that one

2 alone right?

3 MR. HAGERMAN: Could you just recap where

4 we are on this? 

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: Go ahead.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: So we have the modifications

8 on the first two bullets which everyone is okay with. 

9 And we are also okay with the modification on number

10 well, number 2 right, everything else is the original

11 verbage. So I think what would be beneficial is to

12 take a temperature vote just to see if what we have

13 so far if that is okay, we understand that we will

14 probably have to revisit this to hit that third

15 bullet, is that clear? Everything that we have

16 approved up here with the understanding that this

17 part would have to be revisited -- and I am going to

18 try to darken those first two bullets out, the first

19 two, just darken them so they can see them in the

20 back I'm guessing they can't see them in the back. 

21 So as it -- Charlie?

22 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, I would
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1 also like to say that I would like to see in our

2 transcript to note the fact that item number 3 would

3 be being addressed by DOE to clarify and verify the

4 products are being classified as they should be

5 classified one way or the other.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Are you talking about the

7 third bullet there?

8 MR. HON: Yes.

9 MS. CLEARY: I thought I understood

10 Charlie to mean the actual number 3 the commercial,

11 residential issue and that we would be not including

12 that in the scope of our negotiation but rather in

13 the scope of the rulemaking that DOE would consider

14 if I understood what you are saying.

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Could you just propose what

16 that should say that maybe you should say is

17 certified or addressed by DOE so as it is not in

18 conflict with commercial standards or something like

19 that?

20 MS. CLEARLY: You can probably leave the

21 language and just say to be further revised by DOE

22 pending in the rulemaking. Just note that it is out
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1 of the scope of the term sheet, to the extent it is

2 part of the sheet.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: That I can deal with yes.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Revised by DOE is that fine?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah that's fine. So can

6 I answer one more thing before I leave to get back to

7 Joanna's question earlier about what did we do with

8 the one I declined to answer earlier, what did we do

9 with this compressor thing that wasn't integral to

10 the cabinetry? We said it was not a covered product

11 so your solution would work if you add coverage for

12 non-integral based compressor refrigerator this way. 

13 MR. RAMIREZ: So then as a temperature

14 vote are we okay with what is up here so far, again

15 we are not being locked in because we have to revisit

16 that third bullet. Let's see a show of thumbs.

17 (Panel showing thumb vote).

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so let's go on to the

19 next definition then. So take a moment and look at

20 this and then we'll see what discussion you want to

21 have on this one. 

22 (Panel reviewing slide on screen)
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay Dick?

2 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. I

3 think given -- based on our discussion I think we are

4 going to see definition of the cooled cabinet being

5 quite different than the non-compressor refrigerator

6 so I would just suggest that we put on perhaps

7 different pages.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Could you -- a

9 non-compressor.

10 (Conferring)

11 Okay so then looking at cooled cabinet,

12 what questions or comments, Roland?

13 MR. MARCINIAK: (Off mic) Sorry, Roland

14 from U-Line. It looks like you are saying that it

15 includes TENV cold but there is the possibility of

16 having others, it just seems a little ambiguous to

17 say would include but doesn't exclude others, I would

18 find it better if you either took that out or said

19 would include all types of cooled.

20 MR. HAGERMAN: I don't think you need that

21 text whatsoever.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay Joanna?
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1 MS. CLEARY: I have a question perhaps for

2 Troy which is when you were testing the

3 non-compressor refrigerators, could you say anything

4 about the range of temperatures -- cabinet

5 temperatures, that you observed when you were testing

6 it at 90 degree ambient or what temperatures were

7 they capable of maintaining at 90 degrees?

8 MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson from

9 Navigant. So none of the non-compressor

10 refrigerators we tested were able to maintain

11 refrigerator compartment temperatures in the 90

12 degree ambient and let me see if I can pull up that

13 data real quick. 

14 Refrigerators right?

15 MS. CLEARY: Right so yeah I understand

16 that they weren't able to maintain a temperature

17 lower than 39 I'm curious what temperature they were

18 able to maintain?

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Giving Troy a minute --

20 MS. CLEARY: This is Joanna, my question

21 is so we have talked about how kind of using this

22 definition of capable of maintaining some temperature
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1 at 90 degrees I think I'm just trying to make sure

2 that everything is going to fall on to either the

3 kind of refrigerator bucket or cooled cabinet bucket

4 and not somehow fall outside.

5 MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson from

6 Navigant. You were asking for compartment

7 temperatures when tested at the 90 degree ambient? 

8 Okay, yeah so we had a sample of 8 units for the

9 preliminary analysis and the coolest compartment

10 temperature we saw was 42.8 degrees and it ranged all

11 the way up to 61.1 degrees. 

12 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, what type of

13 refrigeration system did the coldest ones have?

14 MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. 

15 The coldest was a thermal-electric unit and it was a

16 1.7 cubic foot cabinet.

17 MR. MARCINIAK: Roland Marciniak, did you

18 have anything?

19 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Dick, did you have

20 anything you wanted to share?

21 MR. TOPPINGS: I was just asking for

22 clarification from Troy to make sure those were -- 
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1 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: We need your mic

2 sorry, thank you.

3 MR. TOPPINGS: Dick Toppings Sub-Zero, I

4 was asking Troy whether those products he mentioned

5 were marketed as refrigerators and not as wine

6 coolers or cellars.

7 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: His answer was --

8 MR. TOPPINGS: I think it was yes.

9 MR. WATSON: Yes, I believe so. I would

10 have to go back to look at specific products to be

11 sure.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so then looking at this

13 definition for cooled cabinet, what do we need to do

14 in order to make this work, Nathan?

15 MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool

16 just bringing up a separate issue other than

17 temperatures. What is says is it means a cabinet

18 that is a source of refrigeration requiring

19 electrical energy input only. I don't know that that

20 is clear enough. A lot of these products and I am

21 just looking at a few of them now, a lot of them are

22 supplied with words that can be plugged into a car, a
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1 12 volt DC power as well as a cord that plugs into AC

2 power so I guess the way it reads now if a company

3 sells a product with only a DC power cord that would

4 still be covered because it doesn't say alternating

5 current only, it says electrical energy input only.

6 So I just think we need to have some

7 discussion on how we want to treat the electrical

8 aspect of this definition.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Is this intended to try to

10 capture those auto plug-in type refrigerators?

11 MR. MOUW: So this is Nate, I can't answer

12 that but I think whatever we do the definition needs

13 to be very clear. I mean a lot of those products

14 again are supplied with plugs that you could plug

15 into the wall of your home as well. They can be

16 powered in one of two ways. 

17 MR. HAGERMAN: So just real quick, I think

18 in 6292 the coverage -- it says the following

19 consumer products which would fall into a category in

20 Section 20 exclude those consumer products designed

21 solely for use in recreational vehicles and other

22 mobile equipment. 
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1 MR. MOUW: So this is Nate so then it

2 seems like the definition does not capture that

3 entirely. 

4 MR. HAGERMAN: This definition would be

5 subject to it. I mean if you would like to we can

6 copy that to this definition if it would make you

7 feel more comfortable but it would be redundant. 

8 MR. MOUW: I don't think -- this is Nate,

9 I don't think this definition captures what you just

10 read. This definition can very well be interpreted

11 to mean DC input as well which I don't think is the

12 intent.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Which would then loop those

14 in?

15 MR. MOUW: Yes, somehow we need to loop in

16 Joe what you just said into this definition.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so could you read

18 that so we could get it.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: I will bring it up to you.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Better, thank you. So we

21 will give Ted a moment to add that and see how it

22 looks. Okay Roland do you have a comment on that?
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1 MR. MARCINIAK: Well I was wondering if we

2 were still determining the 72 degrees or if that was

3 determined now to be 90 degrees, I think yesterday we

4 talked a great deal about 90 degrees?

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah from what I am seeing

6 up here they are both up there for you all to make a

7 decision on that.

8 MR. MARCINIAK: Okay.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: We just haven't gotten there

10 quite yet. So just excluding the issue of the 90 or

11 72, I'm sorry could you darken up what you just added

12 because I think it's probably hard for them to see it

13 in the back, make it dark a little.

14 Okay so the additional language and

15 excluding the 90 or 72 for right now how does that

16 verbage look? Let me get Bill first and then Nathan

17 and then Tim.

18 MR. BROWN: Okay this is Bill Brown from

19 GE. Yeah I just have a question regarding say a

20 portable product that is not a car, or an RV, one

21 that you can carry around that works off of battery

22 power, would that be covered and it sounds like it
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1 would if I'm just reading exactly the words that are

2 written up here.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Nathan and Tim.

4 MR. MOUW: Yeah if I could add to what

5 Bill said I mean I think what we did is we captured

6 from 60 to 90, Joe is that right? So I think -- let

7 me ask a question I think the intent of that

8 statement -- I interpret that to mean a product that

9 has a let's say permanently connected power cord that

10 can only be used off of DC power. The word solely

11 tells me that if a manufacturer sells a product with

12 two detachable cords that product is not designed

13 solely for use in a mobile basis, whether it be

14 portable, or for use in our vehicle.

15 So it seems like we could drill down one

16 level and then say as a revised proposal requiring

17 electrical energy, excluding those products with the

18 permanently connected cord for use with direct

19 current, something like that. I mean what we are

20 trying to exclude are those products that have a

21 permanently connected power cord that can only be

22 used with DC power.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Nathan could you repeat

2 that, let's capture it up there so we can see what it

3 really looks like.

4 MR. MOUW: I can try.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

6 MR. MOUW: So the source of refrigeration

7 requiring electrical energy I think you still need

8 the word "only" to exclude those products so the next

9 word would be "electrical energy only, excluding

10 consumer products with a permanently connected power

11 cord utilizing direct current", something like that. 

12 Let's start with that "for use with -- sorry, power

13 cord for use with direct current". 

14 MR. STERN: So that would exclude dual

15 forces?

16 MR. HAGERMAN: Why don't you just put that

17 up there. 

18 MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool,

19 the question was does this exclude dual source? I

20 interpret that to mean a product that has two cords,

21 one for AC power, one for DC power, those would be

22 included as a covered product, not excluded with that
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1 exclusion -- because that's a permanently connected

2 DC power cord would be the exclusion -- a product

3 that is supplied with two power cords to these

4 products would be included. They are all over the

5 place, yes.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: Where are they sold to, I

7 mean --

8 MR. MOUW: Walmart, anywhere.

9 MR. HAGERMAN: But things that you plus

10 into your car?

11 MR. MOUW: Yeah.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: So prior to that language

13 being added up there, I know that Tim wanted to speak

14 I don't know if that changes and then Charlie after

15 that.

16 MR. HAGERMAN: Well hold on, don't you

17 consider that to be mobile equipment?

18 MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool,

19 I'm just reacting to the text that you read which

20 says designed "solely for use in mobile equipment", a

21 product that also comes with an AC power cord is not

22 solely for use with mobile equipment, it can also be
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1 plugged into the outlet in my kitchen. So it is

2 designed for use in mobile equipment as well as

3 designed for use in my home. 

4 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earthjustice. 

5 I guess my concern is making this more explicit we

6 sort of highlight the opportunities to evade. If I

7 am a manufacturer and I package an adapter with it

8 that would enable me to use that one cord that is

9 intended for DC power to adapt it to an AC main plug

10 it is like I avoid the cooled cabinet definition. 

11 MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool,

12 that's why I guess the suggestion is to use the

13 phrase of "permanently connected", permanently

14 connected meaning the product could not without

15 significant -- significant modification ever be used

16 with AC power.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie?

18 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, and there

19 is another product unfortunately, I happen to own one

20 of them, it basically has a permanently connected DC

21 power cord but it came in the same box with an AC

22 adapter. So you plug that into the wall, you plug
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1 the other one into the DC converter and it ran just

2 fine. 

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn?

4 MS. CLEARY: Could you put the definition

5 of refrigerator back on and I'm not proposing that we

6 go back to discuss that but I -- just thought we

7 could just copy that and I thought that was the same

8 intent that requires single-phase alternating

9 current, electric energy input only.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: So what --

11 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna, Nate could you

12 just explain the reason why we would want to exclude

13 DC powered products?

14 MR. MOUW: This is Nate. DC powered

15 products are plugged into vehicles with batteries and

16 that is just based on the text that Joe read which is

17 you know they have the authority to establish

18 coverage for those products for use, not for use --

19 designed not solely for use and then mobile

20 applications which essentially means DC power. These

21 are products that are plugged into vehicles and you

22 know running off of my battery, the alternator of my
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1 battery as I drive down the road, these are not

2 plugged into the grid.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: One of the problems with

4 just thinking through this -- one of the problems it

5 says require single-phase alternating current only is

6 these thermal electric units don't operate off of AC

7 current, they are all DC right so they have some type

8 of inverter in there and ultimately they use DC to

9 operate the unit right.

10 So I mean only there a little bit of

11 confusion.

12 MS. CLEARY: Yes so maybe that wasn't the

13 best way to get at this, I was just trying to see if

14 it worked, this is Jenn Cleary.

15 MR. HAGERMAN: So that is the reason that

16 you were trying to put the directly wired to DC in

17 there.

18 MR. MOUW: This is Nate and I certainly

19 understand Charlie's concern where some of these

20 products may also have an adapter, a loose adapter

21 that is thrown in the box as well. I guess I would

22 question whether that product is designed and sold
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1 for use in mobile applications only. Perhaps there

2 is a slight modification we can make to this that

3 would take into account Charlie's concern as well.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: That's a good point I mean

5 if there's a residential adapter in the box when you

6 buy it, that probably inherently means it was not

7 designed to solely be used in mobile applications

8 right? That probably would be our interpretation in

9 terms of enforcement. 

10 MR. RAMIREZ: So I know there are some

11 other ones out, but I don't know -- did you want to

12 speak Dick?

13 MR. TOPPING: Just to Jenn's point, I mean

14 I think all the other -- Dick Topping Sub-Zero -- I

15 mean all of the other consumer products covered you

16 basically plug them in you know and what that

17 basically says is if you plug it in it is covered. 

18 Is that too simple?

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Is it?

20 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Tim you are smiling. 

21 You are smiling do you want to comment?

22 MR. BALLO: Tim with Earthjustice. Yeah
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1 it seems to me that I mean maybe one way to address

2 this is cooled cabinet means a cabinet that has a

3 source of refrigeration capable of operating on

4 single phase alternating current, electric energy

5 input and is capable of maintaining compartment

6 temperatures and just to get rid of a lot of the blue

7 and red text.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Is capable?

9 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Do you want to repeat

10 that again?

11 MR. BALLO: The cabinet source of

12 refrigeration capable of operating on single-phase

13 alternating current, electric energy input and then

14 just delete everything down to "and is capable of

15 maintaining compartment temperatures".

16 MR. RAMIREZ: We are putting a strike

17 through it for now just in case.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: Just to repeat something

19 that maybe we confused everybody with. The provision

20 of 6292(a) the following consumer products, excluding

21 the consumer products designed solely for use in

22 recreational vehicle and other mobile equipment will
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1 always apply, everything we do is subject to that.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Stephen?

3 MR. SCHAEFER: I mean looking at the power

4 -- this is Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki America,

5 looking at power and looking at cars, some of the

6 reasons why you have had DC and AC there's lots of

7 different power going through here. You have bands

8 that have pull down TV's and you have kids that like

9 to have their Play Stations, X-Boxes, everything and

10 sometimes it seems that it is actually easier to have

11 both types and if they can use that actually it is

12 easier sometimes.

13 So it is looking at the intent of the

14 actual product and if you have a box that has DC

15 circuit it is you know, low voltage but you know you

16 have two different outlets, I think that is the only

17 reason they are looking at it. They are not looking

18 to have a cooler that can be cooled put on your

19 counter as a cooled box so that's why we are trying

20 -- I think it's pretty good at having the

21 single-phase alternating current, electrical energy

22 input because it is actually a DC product, low
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1 voltage.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: So how does this latest

3 alternation look then? Is this something that can

4 work? Let's see a show of thumbs.

5 MR. MOUW: I'm sorry Javier, can you

6 clarify which of the colors that we are --

7 MR. RAMIREZ: The part that's not struck

8 through -- so just the pieces that are not struck

9 through. 

10 MR. MOUW: Okay.

11 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Wasn't Stephen

12 talking about what was struck through though? No, oh

13 you are okay.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Stephen?

15 MR. SCHAEFER: Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki

16 America, it looks good the way it is.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: So looking at the pieces

18 that are not struck through, again excluding the 90

19 or 72 we will talk about that next, but let's see a

20 show of thumbs if you are okay with that language in

21 the definition.

22 MR. BALLO: Tim with Earthjustice, that
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1 should be alternating current, not alternative.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you, all right. So

3 let's see a show of thumbs.

4 (Panel voting)

5 MR. RAMIREZ: I have got to tell you what,

6 that was fantastic. That's exactly what I am talking

7 about as far as the minds in this room. So let me

8 ask you all the process piece here. Do you want to

9 break for lunch right now and then we come back and

10 we deal with the 90 or 72 or do you think that that

11 is something we can knock out before lunch?

12 MR. HAGERMAN: Why don't you take a

13 temperature real quick on 90 or 72.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: So --

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Depending on what you feel

16 about that take a lunch.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: So let's see, a temperature

18 check on 90, thumbs?

19 (Thumbs voting)

20 MR. RAMIREZ: That's looking pretty

21 strong. Do you know what just for formality

22 temperature check on 72?
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1 (Thumbs voting)

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Formal vote on 90? Let's

3 see a formal vote on 90?

4 All right, 90 it is.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: We are going for lunch.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Lunch is a powerful

7 motivator it seems like. All right so

8 congratulations it looks like for the most part we

9 have enough structure here for the next step of the

10 process which would then be identifying the products

11 correct?

12 Non-compressor -- we are going to lunch,

13 all right. So what time do you want to return from

14 lunch?

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's give everybody until

16 1:15.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: 1:15, great, so we will see

18 you all at 1:15.

19 (Lunch Break)

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so let's go ahead and

21 get started and George and Jenn are you both

22 available on the phone?
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1 MR. PARSONS: This is George I'm here. 

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, okay I believe

3 Jennifer is muted. All right so then one logistical

4 -- actually two flights, what time are our flights

5 leaving today? Is there a time where people are just

6 going to be getting up and leaving? Chris do you

7 have an earlier flight?

8 MR. KUCH: 6:30.

9 MR. MARCINIAK: 4:00.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: At 4:00, all right so we

11 will do our best to get through as much as we can by

12 4 o'clock if we need to hang over just a little bit

13 to try to wrap things up then that's what we will do. 

14 Dates -- so we also need to make sure that we leave a

15 little bit of time for finalizing the dates, however

16 I would like to try to pick up where we left off. I

17 really like the way you all are problem solving and

18 trying to get through some things.

19 So while we were on break Ted hurried up

20 and copied and pasted this on to a word document so

21 it will be a little bit easier to make some edits

22 than on the power point slides. One thing I do want
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1 to clarify though -- on the cooled cabinets, we

2 agreed on all the individual components but we didn't

3 formally agree on that entire section for cooled

4 cabinets. I believe we are in agreement so I want to

5 formalize that so we can record the vote.

6 So is everyone okay with the cooled

7 cabinet definition and let me see a show of thumbs if

8 we are all okay with that.

9 (Thumb voting)

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. And Jenn's back,

11 again George if there is any problem just speak up

12 otherwise we will just keep going. Non-compressor

13 refrigerators -- let's call that one up and let's

14 take a look at that one and see if we can do the same

15 thing as we did with the cooled cabinets and make

16 modifications until everyone is satisfied. So I will

17 give you a moment to read that.

18 Now setting aside the 90 or the 72 for

19 right now, we will obviously address that. How does

20 the verbiage look? Jenn?

21 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, if we could also

22 set aside the last sentence because that's the same
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1 as that third bullet on the refrigerator definition

2 that relates to hybrids. 

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so all the non-italics

4 language, yeah Charlie?

5 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, are we going to

6 have another category which is freezers? Because

7 under the standards we already have we don't have it

8 covered here.

9 MR. HAGERMAN: I would like freezers and

10 ice makers. 

11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, this is not

12 necessary the same as ice makers but as a freezer --

13 self-contained freezer or refrigerator freezer

14 combination type of product.

15 MR. HAGERMAN: But you don't think a

16 freezer, icemaker are the same?

17 MR. HON: No.

18 MR. TOPPING: Non-compressor.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Non-compressor freezer, or

20 one that is not integral to the cabinet but to carry

21 over the integral to the cabinet, not integral to the

22 cabinet logic too right?
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Troy on that?

2 MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. 

3 At the stage of the test procedure NOPR DOE was

4 proposing definitions for non-compressor all

5 refrigerator, non-compressor cooled cabinet,

6 non-compressor refrigerator because those were the

7 only configurations DOE was aware of so if the group

8 would like to define non-compressor freezer or

9 refrigerator freezer, I think that would be possible

10 but DOE just isn't aware of those products at this

11 time.

12 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I think if

13 you defined them then you don't have the regulatory

14 burden to recapture them, they are already defined as

15 a product then all you have to do is put a number to

16 them.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: All right then while we are

18 working on this Troy could I burden you to maybe put

19 together a starting point for discussion on those

20 while we are working on this one? 

21 MR. WATSON: Sure.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so knowing that we
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1 will be dealing with the non-compressor freezers I

2 guess next, Dick do you have something?

3 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. 

4 Could I suggest we might want to put the same clause

5 regarding electric energy in this definition as we

6 agreed to before lunch? 

7 (Mr. Bantle making changes.)

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Any other modifications to

9 that top part? Tim?

10 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with Earthjustice. 

11 I'm just wondering, just a question do we need to

12 change the name on integral compressor refrigerator

13 or can we just live with it as it is. 

14 MS. CLEARY: Did we decide formally to

15 follow that approach? Did I miss -- so I'm not sure,

16 I'm not saying that we are against it but I don't

17 think I'm ready to say yet so I am not sure that I

18 would be ready to vote on including that on the

19 definition yet but I agree if we do go that route we

20 should be consistent across.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: So what is the -- let me ask

22 why?
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1 MR. BALLO: Because the wording has been

2 included in the text, not have a compressor condenser

3 as an integral part of the cabinet assembly so it is

4 not strictly speaking accurate to refer to them as

5 non-compressor refrigerators, some of them may have

6 compressors. 

7 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm letting you all chew on

8 that to see what it looks like.

9 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown with GE, the

10 bracketed comments at the bottom, the products that

11 exist for ambient I would say if you did have a

12 compressor that was not integral you certainly would

13 have a very good chance of meeting whatever

14 temperatures you are looking for at 90 degrees so I

15 don't know if the bracketed comment was part of what

16 we were voting on or it is just there for some

17 reason.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's put a strike through

19 on it just for clarity.

20 MR. BROWN: Yeah okay. 

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn?

22 MS. CLEARY: I might just be confused so
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1 can I ask some questions for clarification?

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.

3 MS. CLEARY: The language about integral

4 part of the cabinet assembly, that was something we

5 talked about earlier, was that originally in what DOE

6 proposed? 

7 MR. RAMIREZ: No. (off mic)

8 MS. CLEARY: No right? Okay. 

9 So I think it might be helpful as we are looking here

10 to be clear on what was originally in and what wasn't

11 because what we are discussing now is sort of

12 assuming that that would be in there and I'm not sure

13 if we agreed to that and that I think the same is

14 true Bill for your comments about what was in

15 brackets there that that was there when we started

16 this morning because it related to right -- the

17 products that we already analyzed I just want to make

18 sure I did clarify but I thought that is why he put

19 it there because the products they already analyzed

20 if they were tested under the 90 degree ambient

21 wouldn't be able to meet those temperatures.

22 So I think the existence of that bracketed
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1 language applies if we don't include the integral

2 part of the cabinet assembly language but doesn't if

3 we don't. 

4 MR. RAMIREZ: And when you talk about the

5 original proposed language that was on slide 9 from

6 yesterday?

7 MS. CLEARY: Yes.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 

9 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. I

10 mean if the real issue here is a concern that remote

11 compressor products are somehow not being covered or

12 dealt with then let's deal with that. I am not sure

13 that this is the section to deal with it in though

14 because it just causes a lot of complexity. And I

15 mean couldn't that be dealt with with the current --

16 I mean it meets the current definition of a

17 refrigerator doesn't it or does it not?

18 MR. BALLO: It's my understanding, this is

19 Tim at Earthjustice, that it doesn't and I'm not -- I

20 wasn't suggesting we make these changes specifically

21 primarily to address the remote compressor product,

22 it's more of creating sort of a catch all category
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1 for everything that isn't already refrigerator so

2 that we don't -- so that we limit ambiguities going

3 forward and also make sure that anything that isn't

4 already a refrigerator has to meet a set of standards

5 that reflects what is really possible.

6 MR. TOPPING: It's Dick again, I'm not

7 disagreeing with you it just seems to me we are

8 getting into an Elmo moment here -- that it's just

9 you know if we try to conglomerate everything in this

10 catch all then we start trying to deal with standards

11 for whatever its --

12 MR. BALLO: Well my hope is there would be

13 one standard for everything that is in this

14 non-integral compressor refrigerator category and if

15 you leave out the non-integral compressor

16 refrigerators and just make it non-compressor

17 refrigerators, the standard is sort of limited by the

18 available technologies that fit within that

19 definition.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn?

21 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary with AHAM. You

22 know I think this -- the proposal Tim that you guys
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1 came up with is one that maybe we just need some more

2 time to think about. You know I think it was a

3 really creative approach to what we were talking

4 about earlier this morning. I know from AHAM's

5 perspective, although I have some of my members in

6 the room, I don't have all of them and I would like

7 the opportunity to go back and talk to the rest of

8 members as well as the members who are in the room

9 about their views on this and just think a little bit

10 more, myself and with my members about the

11 implications of that, something we haven't given any

12 thought to so I was just wondering if others feel the

13 same way and maybe if we could table that discussion

14 until the beginning of our next meeting when we allot

15 a little more time to think about it.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: And that is specifically for

17 the non-compressor refrigerator?

18 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, yeah for

19 including the non-integral compressor products and

20 you know this was -- when we came back after a long

21 break earlier, the proposal that was made I think we

22 are now just seeing that if we wanted to go that way
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1 we need to include it in this definition and it's

2 having downstream effects so if we could just have a

3 little time to think about that proposal this

4 morning.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, what do you all

6 think about tabling non-compressor and non-integral

7 compressor?

8 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna, this certainly

9 makes sense to me. I certainly understand that we

10 would like more time to consider that. The only

11 question it raises is I think it has implications for

12 the analysis and you know is it better to get that

13 process started.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: That is one concern

15 especially with our condensed time line. Is it

16 something that if we were to take a break that you

17 would be able to huddle up and see if something can

18 be agreed upon?

19 MS. CLEARY: Forgive my silence I was

20 thinking.

21 MR. BALLO: This is Tim, I just would

22 maybe make an alternative suggestion. One of the
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1 issues that we have been tabling is the hybrid

2 products and where the dividing line is there and

3 maybe if that is an issue we could sort of get out on

4 the table as well in the time we have remaining

5 because I would like to understand that better.

6 MS. CLEARY: Yeah I certainly wouldn't see

7 that this would stop our discussions now I think we

8 have plenty to talk about that is not impacted by

9 this but Joanna -- this is Jenn Cleary by the way, I

10 understand your point too that if we do decide we

11 want to go that way it is a big change to the

12 analysis so I mean I personally wouldn't object to

13 having that analysis move forward and that might also

14 give us all a better, or a more informed view on you

15 know, what the implications would be of agreeing to

16 it so as long as DOE wouldn't see that as a waste of

17 its resources, I wouldn't object to that.

18 MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool. 

19 Perhaps we could continue to talk about the

20 definition overall and just table the non-integral

21 part of the definition. 

22 MR. RAMIREZ: So would that -- can you
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1 feel comfortable doing that and then seeing whether

2 integral or non-integral ends up in the definition or

3 not? Is that what you are proposing, get the rest of

4 it done?

5 MR. MOUW: Yes that is what I am

6 proposing, yep.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: All right if everyone is

8 good with let's look at the rest of it. So then

9 correct me if I am wrong then you agree -- let's just

10 focus on the top one then right but we will just put

11 a strike through on non-integral for now. I think it

12 was somewhere on the third line. 

13 MR. HAGERMAN: Where?

14 MR. RAMIREZ: So how do we have to amend

15 that one just as a strike through on that third line

16 -- "as"? 

17 MR. YOUNG: Start at the "as through

18 assembly". 

19 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so tabling

20 integral part, what else do we need to look at here? 

21 Yeah, Nate?

22 MR. MOUW: Nate from Whirlpool. The
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1 second -- on the third line there says requires

2 electrical energy input only. I'm not suggesting we

3 delete that but I guess I am asking a question what

4 is that -- what does that clarify and if it does

5 clarify something then we should keep that language

6 also in the definition that we discussed prior.

7 So we replace that phrase with the phrase

8 that we have now added to this one and the prior. So

9 I guess the first question is what is -- does anybody

10 know the basis and history of that phrase? Is it

11 necessary given the first part of the sentence?

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie?

13 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing. 

14 Absorption units quite often are input source of

15 natural gas or propane or something to actually run

16 the unit rather than electrical heaters and that is

17 very big as rural cabins out in the wood you have a

18 propane tank. If your electricity goes out your

19 refrigerator stays on. 

20 MR. MOUW: This is Nate again. So -- and

21 in RV's as well you can run many RV refrigerators off

22 of electrical or propane but I guess is that now
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1 redundant to the first half of the sentence?

2 And a suggestion would be that whatever we

3 decide on this one should be consistent with the

4 cooled cabinet language as well, mostly consistent

5 with that language as well.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: So do I understand then that

7 you are talking about striking that?

8 MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool. 

9 I'm suggesting we maybe rethink that entire sentence. 

10 Now after lunch the suggestion to say operating on

11 single phase is capable of operating on single phase

12 alternating current I don't know that that's

13 completely -- I don' t know that that's complete in

14 describing what we are trying to describe.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Dick do you have some --

16 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping. I mean I

17 think if we go through the time line from this

18 morning I think that requires electric energy input

19 was new to the definition for this type when we came

20 here this morning and had some definitions so I think

21 what the intent was to replace that phrase with the

22 upper phrase which is the same phrase which is in the
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1 cooled cabinet.

2 So whatever people are happy with is

3 probably what should be repeated in all of these

4 products. 

5 MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool. 

6 The only -- if we stay on this slide on the cooled

7 cabinet slide, the only concern I would have would be

8 if it is clear enough, you know a product capable of

9 operating on single phase alternating current. 

10 Charlie I'm thinking of the example that you brought

11 of a product has a cord attached, but it also comes

12 with an adapter is that excluded or included? 

13 Another case would be a product does have

14 a permanently connected DC cord but certainly that

15 product is capable of operating on an alternating

16 current given an adaptor so I just don't know that we

17 have covered that entire suite of products and made

18 it crystal clear and I think that there is some

19 improvement. 

20 Unfortunately I don't have an obvious

21 suggestion right now, sorry.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's tap in to some of the
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1 heads here, right? Dick?

2 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. 

3 Could we take "capable of" out?

4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I guess I'm

5 just wondering Dick is that something that someone

6 can determine from you know -- the product that a

7 manufacturer is selling at the time of sale?

8 MR. TOPPING: Well I mean yeah this is

9 Dick, you buy one and it has got a plug you have an

10 operating manual so you know plug them into the wall. 

11 I'm open to any suggestions you have I mean it but I

12 think whatever we select for one of these definitions

13 we should then carry through to all the other

14 definitions so it is not confusing. 

15 MR. RAMIREZ: So sticking with the cooled

16 cabinet definition I'm not sure if you are saying

17 that with that modification it does work or if we

18 still need more dialogue?

19 MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool. 

20 Again I guess there is a couple of ways to think

21 about it and I guess I would ask how is it typically

22 treated in these definitions -- you could use the
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1 words "designed to" "capable of" "sold as", so I

2 guess the question is which of those frameworks is

3 the one that is typically used across definitions I

4 just don't know.

5 Those are all different, "sold as"

6 "designed to" "used as". 

7 MR. HAGERMAN: I think the answer is it

8 depends but I think we heard earlier from Ashley that

9 "designed to" is probably the weakest that you

10 presented so "capable of" seems to me to be the most

11 logical here.

12 MR. BALLO: So this is Tim, whether it

13 addresses the current definition of electric

14 refrigerator in the CFR unless I am looking at the

15 2014 version of the CFR, unless it has changed

16 recently, it provides the unit has a source of

17 refrigeration requiring single phase alternating

18 current electric energy input only. Is that language

19 that we could apply to all of these products?

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Read it again.

21 MR. BALLO: Having a source of

22 refrigeration requiring single phase alternating
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1 current electric energy input only.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Nate?

3 MR. MOUW: This is Nate and I guess that

4 would -- I think that is close but the word only

5 would exclude then the product that also comes with a

6 detachable DC power cord but I think we can build off

7 of that perhaps in some way to make it work for all

8 of those products. 

9 Again based on what Joe provided earlier I

10 think the only product that we are trying to exclude

11 is that product that is sold to only operate on DC

12 with the accessories and product in the box. 

13 MS. CLEARY: This is Jenn Cleary. We

14 talked about that language before lunch too, it's in

15 green there and so I'm starting to feel like we are

16 going in circles here and I'm not sure why. I think

17 I'm just confused, I'm not saying I think so I

18 thought I understood before lunch that we wanted to

19 include those products that came with the thing in

20 the box. So are you concerned that the language we

21 came up with before lunch didn't do that?

22 MR. MOUW: Is that language -- sorry this
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1 is Nate, is that language the green language?

2 MS. CLEARY: There's too much language. 

3 The black language that is now partly struck out,

4 "capable of operating on a single phase alternating

5 current electric energy input". 

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Do you have something to add

7 to that?

8 MR. MOUW: Yeah the only concern I would

9 have with that would be a product again that is sold

10 with a permanently connected DC power cord and is

11 still capable of operating on alternating current. 

12 Maybe that's arguable -- maybe that's a stretch, that

13 product can certainly be run off of AC power with an

14 adapter that may come in a box. 

15 MS. CLEARY: This is Jenn, okay so maybe

16 this is where I am confused then because I thought

17 before lunch we were saying "yes it can" and so it

18 should be included. Are you suggesting that is too

19 tenuous like?

20 MR. MOUW: Yeah I'm just trying to think

21 it through, all the configurations that are sold and

22 make sure that it is crystal clear for all those.
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. What I

2 think is not clear here is if you make one of these

3 devices, it runs off DC power and then you sell an

4 adapter in a box right, you are going to be confused

5 whether or not you fall under this category -- you as

6 a manufacturer right? I think from DOE perspective

7 we are not going to be confused at all right because

8 you sold it and it has an adapter in the box, you

9 fall under this category right.

10 So I don't think you need to -- I think my

11 honest opinion of this is it is probably good enough

12 for the course of this discussion and then we can ask

13 for public comment on strengthening that as it gets

14 to the rule right and if we can get a comment on it,

15 it builds a better mousetrap then of course we will

16 consider it. I think we know what the intent here is

17 from this discussion. 

18 MR. RAMIREZ: So then are we reverting

19 back to the language prior to lunch?

20 MR. MOUW: This is Nate, I think why we

21 got off -- why I got us off on this rabbit trail was

22 sorry go back to the next slide which talks about
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1 requiring the electrical input only. We were talking

2 about now that we have this definition I think that

3 we are becoming more comfortable with whether that

4 should be deleted or not, whether it is necessary. I

5 think you were suggesting that now it is redundant so

6 we can probably strike that portion of the

7 definition, starting with the word "requires" and

8 ending with the word "only".

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Is that needed?

10 MR. HAGERMAN: I think it needs to be

11 struck out right? I mean that's what you are trying

12 to do here right?

13 MR. RAMIREZ: So then if we amend that

14 there then we have to go back and modify the cooled

15 cabinet as well? 

16 MR. MOUW: (Shaking head yes).

17 MR. RAMIREZ: It was struck. So does that

18 look doable then, going up from the italics up?

19 MR. HAGERMAN: So are we not including the

20 90?

21 MR. RAMIREZ: We will go into that next.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: So as far as a temperature

2 check on that piece, let's see a show of thumbs if we

3 are okay with that. Okay, now the next part. Yeah

4 let's take the temperature piece and then we will

5 deal with that to explain 90 or 72 so do we want to

6 try what we did last time where it will require more

7 discussion. 

8 So let me see a show of thumbs if we are

9 okay with 90? All right. Now the italics part,

10 what do we want to do with that? Jenn?

11 MS. CLEARY: This is Jenn. That's the

12 hybrid issue I think we were saying we were maybe

13 going to talk about next after we finalize the rest. 

14 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. Is that

15 question just of the half?

16 MS. CLEARY: Yeah.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: It's not the whole idea of

18 the hybrid it's just the half?

19 MS. CLEARY: No, no we agree the hybrid

20 should be included.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: So 40 - 60 is a --

22 MS. CLEARY: A totally different way of
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1 finding without a percentage.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so we are going to

3 strike out the other non-compressor language that we

4 had below because we just put that in there to

5 compare that was from the original slide 9 so then I

6 will postpone the whole approval of that language

7 until we can iron out the hybrid but temperature

8 check wise we are okay with that.

9 There's one thing on here that when you

10 know from DOE if we include the word integral in

11 there, there's going to -- there might be some

12 additional homework involved, at least that is the

13 way I am understanding that and I guess Troy? Troy

14 or Scott I'm not sure who is the lucky one but there

15 is going to be some additional homework here if that

16 happens. Is that something that DOE is comfortable

17 doing without this group formally pulling the trigger

18 on that so if they do do it they will at least have

19 the analysis ready to go. 

20 MR. WATSON: Troy Watson with Navigant. I

21 think at this point it shouldn't be too much of an

22 issue because like we have said if we switch the
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1 definitions to the 90 degrees all of those products

2 that we are aware of fall into the cooled cabinet

3 category and the analysis there already considers a

4 switch to vapor compression so I think that analysis

5 would still be valid and the analysis that we have

6 done to this point on non-compressor refrigerators

7 would no longer apply.

8 The information still might be useful when

9 considering cooled cabinet design changes but I don't

10 think there's too much of an issue there.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: My sense is the re-carving

12 has caused our analysis to jump buckets like we

13 talked before. 

14 MR. RAMIREZ: So it --

15 MR. HAGERMAN: It doesn't require anything

16 new, what matters is mechanically moving things

17 around and presenting them in this new carved up

18 world.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay then as far as

20 temperature checks we are okay then with the

21 non-compressor refrigerator knowing that we still

22 have to deal with the hybrid issue but everything
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1 else should be okay for now.

2 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I guess two

3 things. I mean I think we would like to see

4 standards set for whatever we are going to call this

5 category of non-compressor refrigerators. And if we

6 do make the change to incorporate non-integral

7 compressor refrigerators I think there are products

8 on the market today that would fit that category and

9 should be considered in the analysis. 

10 MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. I

11 see what you are saying and we can definitely look

12 into those product types but in terms of getting a

13 full analysis on those products specifically I don't

14 think we would be able to have that in a month but we

15 could bring the information that we are able to

16 gather into the next meeting and go from there.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: And my sense is we have

18 some information on this product, some. I am

19 thinking we might have some without speaking but your

20 membership or the members here might have information

21 too that they can submit to us so.

22 I mean this is a two-way street. I mean
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1 we can get data and you can supply us data.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Dick?

3 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. 

4 Joanna does it possibly make sense to make -- this

5 group could make a recommendation to address that

6 product in the next round of refrigerator standards?

7 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I don't -- my

8 understanding is that is not possible because they

9 don't meet the definition of refrigerator today. 

10 MR. TOPPING: Even with the compressor? 

11 They have a compressor right?

12 MS. MAUER: They do have a compressor but

13 it is not integral to the --

14 MR. TOPPING: Do they have to be integral

15 in the definition? I withdraw.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn?

17 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, Joanna I wanted

18 to address your question about could we provide

19 information on this product and the answer is

20 actually no. And it's not because we don't want to

21 but at least from AHAM our members don't make that

22 product and I don't think the manufacturers who do
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1 are part of this process.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Do we know -- so thank you,

3 do you know who those manufacturers are that we could

4 ask them?

5 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary. I think DOE

6 knows based on the conversation from this morning so

7 I'm sorry to turn your question back on you.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Well it's all right to say

9 you don't know.

10 MS. CLEARY: I'm not just saying I don't

11 know but you guys do. I think you have the

12 information.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay all right. So I think

14 we are okay to move on but the question I have for

15 you all then did we want to attempt to put together a

16 definition for non-compressor freezers, is that where

17 we are headed next? Yes, Jenn?

18 MS. CLEARY: This is Jenn. I'm not sure

19 how much value I really see in that at this moment. 

20 I mean maybe we want to come back to that at the end

21 but if Navigant said those products don't exist I

22 don't know -- I would have to think about that a
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1 little bit more if there is value in putting on

2 definition for a product that doesn't exist. 

3 MR. RAMIREZ: All right then what other

4 definitions do we need to work on then or we don't

5 want definitions?

6 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earthjustice. 

7 I guess I would suggest that maybe as DOE came up

8 with a bunch of definitions for us today it seems

9 like it would be relatively straight forward for one

10 person to take this back and hammer out a definition

11 for non-compressor freezers, just throw it in front

12 of the committee next time we meet and we can vote on

13 it but it seems like the key issues have been hashed

14 out and it shouldn't take the whole Committee's time

15 to come up with that definition.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay Charlie?

17 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I would like to

18 see a definition as well. I mean freezers and

19 refrigerator freezers because that clears the DOE to

20 regulate at any time if products come into the

21 market.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: In my opinion it is no
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1 different than the first category that we had right. 

2 The first category that we had on product coverage

3 but no products. It seems like we should do it for

4 freezers as well.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: Just to stay consistent.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Then that is something that

8 we would work on at the beginning of the next

9 meeting?

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Like magic Troy might

11 already have it.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so why don't you

13 see if you could float that out to the screen.

14 MR. HAGERMAN: I will just remind you that

15 you asked him to do that before we started this

16 discussion.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah I wasn't sure if the

18 group --

19 MR. HAGERMAN: The big question I think is

20 going to be not withstanding some of these earlier

21 comments is does that definition also include this

22 non-integral component or not?
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: And that is something you

2 all are going to work on. So open up the outlook and

3 -- I'll tell you what let's take a quick break and

4 then that way we could just take a moment to get it

5 up on the screen for you. Ten minutes, all right so

6 let's do 10 minutes and then come back and hopefully

7 we will have the next definition up for you.

8 (Break)

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay let's get started back

10 up since we have everything up on the screen now. So

11 non-compressor freezer, I believe Troy was trying to

12 capture some of the changes that you all had

13 discussed earlier so hopefully he could reduce some

14 of the conversation on it. Take a look at that and

15 then we will go to the non-compressor refrigerator

16 freezer and then ice maker.

17 MR. WATSON: This is Troy, one thing I

18 noticed the section in 429 should be 61 instead of

19 14, sorry about that. 

20 MR. RAMIREZ: So let me ask the group what

21 do you think of this initial attempt of defining

22 non-compressor freezers? Any suggested changes? 
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1 Let's see a show of thumbs if we are okay with

2 non-compressor freezer.

3 MR. BALLO: Just to note quickly, this is

4 Tim at Earthjustice. Obviously the integrated issue

5 is something that would apply here and to

6 refrigerator freezers as well so depending on how we

7 resolve that at the time it may need to be tweaked a

8 bit. 

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Do you want to put a note

10 somewhere on there, Jenn?

11 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary from AHAM, the

12 same is true for the hybrid issue it is at the end of

13 here too, so other than that.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: So then let's do the

15 temperature check both then right, knowing that we

16 may have to come back and do some amendments with

17 either adding integral as well as any hybrid issues. 

18 But other than that, I said other than that how does

19 that look, temperature check? 

20 (Show of thumbs.)

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay great and then

22 non-compressor refrigerator freezer? Okay and that,
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1 I think there's two of those --

2 MR. HON: Is the 14 correct on there?

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Does this have the same

4 integral component as the other one? Okay.

5 MR. BALLO: Which goes in the text as well

6 in addition to the name.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Where specifically? Help us

8 out?

9 MR. BALLO: If we go back to the struck

10 out language there, an integral part of the cabinet

11 assembly.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: So we would have to cut and

13 paste that -- or copy and paste that strike out.

14 MR. BALLO: As an integral part of the cap

15 yes.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: I probably have to add that

17 into both of those?

18 MR. BALLO: Yes.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Is that the correct location

20 then?

21 MR. BALLO: Yes.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay and then -- all right
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1 so again as a temperature vote with the same two

2 components of integral as well as the hybrid, let's

3 see a show of thumbs if we are okay with what's up

4 there. 

5 (Thumb voting).

6 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, now we I think we

7 get to have some fun. Ice makers okay -- I will give

8 you a little bit of time to read that one and then we

9 will have some discussion.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. Maybe

11 it's foolish to introduce this again because this was

12 just pulled out of the NOPR test procedure -- where

13 did you pull this from? Maybe Troy?

14 MR. WATSON: So this is Troy Watson from

15 Navigant. This is the definition that was proposed

16 in MREF test procedure NOPR and we discussed it a bit

17 back in January. I think some of the same issues we

18 have been discussing come up in this definition,

19 particularly the commercial exclusion with the NSF

20 ANSI standard there and I think part of the reasoning

21 behind this proposed definition is it is pretty

22 difficult to define an ice maker when you have
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1 freezers out there that include ice making

2 capabilities so it is kind of an exclusive definition

3 saying it is a product that makes ice and isn't one

4 of all of these other products that we have been

5 discussing.

6 So if there is any way to improve it or

7 clarify we are definitely all ears.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie?

9 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. It will be

10 under the NSF argument as well.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry what do we need to

12 modify there?

13 MR. HON: Let's see -- basically it says

14 excludes any basic model that is certified under

15 NSF/ANSI 12-2012 automatic ice making equipment. I

16 don't know why it would exclude that because it is

17 giving an out.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman, DOE. 

19 And that is similar to the first definition

20 provisions that we said leave it up to DOE or

21 something like that? So maybe if you go to the first

22 definition and copy I think that's Section 4, Section
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1 3, 1, 2, 3, that's right, copy that entirely, just

2 copy that entire line.

3 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, that would

4 be fine. But again we don't want to -- if we are

5 going to build things correctly, we don't want to

6 have someone jump in having a central test run and

7 thereby avoiding the standard.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Do we have to put the

9 standards in there as well as 1 and 2? No, just that

10 line? 

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman DOE. I think

12 that line assumes that we will have to do some

13 jiu-jitsu to figure out what to put underneath there.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn you had something?

15 MS. CLEARY: I think that getting into the

16 details of this definition assumes that we should

17 even be talking about ice makers and AHAM's view is

18 that we should not be so you know, our view is that

19 ice makers are a completely different product than

20 cooled cabinets and hybrids and non-compressor

21 refrigerators and they should not be a part of the

22 scope of this rulemaking. 
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1 They should be -- if they are pursued by

2 DOE at all they should be pursued in a separate

3 rulemaking and you know to support that I guess there

4 are many different arguments I could make but I will

5 just start with the basic function which is that

6 these are different types of products. Ice makers

7 make something, they make ice whereas cooled cabinets

8 and hybrids and non-compressor refrigerators they

9 cool something.

10 So you know I would look for feedback from

11 others on their view at least to start I think this

12 one probably will require a lot of discussion I'm

13 guessing from reading the comments.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: What are the thoughts or

15 comments on that?

16 MR. HAGERMAN: So I am not very

17 knowledgeable about the EPCA refrigerator rule so

18 somebody chime in here but it covers refrigerators,

19 refrigerated freezers and freezers. It does also

20 cover those products will ice makers in them right,

21 so isn't this sort of logically an extension of that

22 thinking? In the terms that we just went through
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1 refrigerator, refrigerated freezers, freezers,

2 hybrids and now ice makers. Go ahead.

3 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I

4 can point out that during the commercial

5 refrigeration ice makers was handled on a separate

6 rulemaking so we would just be being consistent with

7 what was done before because they were different

8 enough to have two separate rulemakings.

9 MR. HAGERMAN: In the commercial but not

10 in the residential, not the consumer products?

11 MS. DANE: I don't know about the

12 residential but I think that there is enough

13 difference in the time frame that you are trying to

14 get this done to warrant looking at them separately.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn?

16 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary from AHAM. I

17 mean I think it is a little broad to say ice makers

18 are included because we don't have a test procedure

19 to yet in the residential context to address energy

20 use from ice making and we are also talking there

21 about a product that is covered that includes an ice

22 maker. That's not what we are talking about with
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1 stand-alone ice makers, it is totally different.

2 So as exemplified by the fact that ice

3 makers would -- stand-alone ice makers that we are

4 talking about here would require a completely

5 different test procedure.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: So just again I am not

7 familiar enough with the regular refrigerator -- also

8 I'm a civil engineer so keep in mind that I am

9 deficient at a lot of things. So do ice makers in

10 the residential consumer products, do they require

11 you have to have a freezer to store the ice and

12 everything? 

13 MR. HON: Shaking head no.

14 MR. HAGERMAN: They don't. Can you think

15 of a product that is sold that I can imagine in my

16 head that makes ice and doesn't have a freezer to

17 store the ice?

18 MR. MOUW: Joe this is Nate from

19 Whirlpool. I mean I think you are on product classes

20 that are proposed. I think what the words were used

21 cooled storage, ice maker and uncooled storage and

22 then a portable right? And I think even the
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1 definition perhaps up here says "may also include a

2 means for storing ice". 

3 So this definition in and of itself would

4 indicate that an ice maker could be a product that

5 doesn't even have a means of storing ice. 

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Stephen and

7 Charlie.

8 MR. SCHAEFER: Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki

9 America. A lot of the different ice makers that you

10 are looking at in the homes, it's just basically a

11 box that has the ability to make a lot of ice and it

12 has a foamed in cabinet which will try to keep it

13 insulated, kind of like a cooler but it is not

14 actually cooling it like a refrigerator freezer.

15 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, the reason for

16 that, there's two different reasons possible because

17 of something called stale ice. If you have a

18 chilling compartment in the ice storage the ice will

19 stay as it is and any pieces of dirt or anything else

20 that is in the compartment will tend to stick on the

21 surface.

22 But if you have a non-chilled ice storage
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1 bin, it continually melts and you are constantly

2 adding fresh ice on top of it so that the product

3 that is being dispensed as a product which is the ice

4 is not three month old ice, it has not been sealed up

5 or covered or anything, it's constantly refreshing

6 itself by driving the old product down melt-off and

7 new product on top of it.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: So where there -- Stephen?

9 MR. SCHAEFER: Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki

10 America. I also agree with Jennifer that because of

11 the complexity here and the lack of an actual test

12 standard for the smaller units we would like to defer

13 to layering and try to keep it out of this area.

14 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean I think we

15 definitely, correct me if I am wrong, we proposed the

16 test procedure for ice makers right so if we want to

17 move to that next before we get to definitions, that

18 seems to be the roadblock. 

19 MR. RAMIREZ: So Stephen?

20 MR. SCHAEFER: Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki

21 America. So my problem is that this is a product

22 that actually makes a product instead of just a
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1 cooling cabinet or a refrigerator. It's different --

2 I mean you see how much time we have spent over two

3 days just talking about the complexities here, we

4 haven't even gotten into really the beginnings for

5 ice makers so are we going to have enough time over

6 four different meetings to do this.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn?

8 MS. CLEARLY: I guess I just want to

9 clarify a couple of things. One is I don't think the

10 test procedure is the roadblock for us. We just

11 think that these are different products that should

12 not be considered under the same umbrella. I mean

13 even just using the term miscellaneous refrigeration

14 products, it's problematic. 

15 And secondly I want to clarify that I'm

16 not just suggesting that we shouldn't negotiate right

17 now about ice makers. I'm suggesting that ice makers

18 should be in their own rulemaking.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Were there observations or

20 comments on this?

21 MR. HAGERMAN: Are there any comments from

22 people who don't make ice makers?
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1 MR. BALLO: This is Tim at Earthjustice. 

2 I don't make ice makers and I am wondering because I

3 can count to three on my own -- if maybe we should

4 just sort of get a sense of where the group is on

5 this if it seems that we are not going to have

6 consensus on whether to even tackle ice makers in

7 this group which is the sense I am getting then maybe

8 this is just an issue we leave to DOE and it is not

9 something that we have to take up time with.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Stephen?

11 MR. SCHAEFER: Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki

12 America. If we are asking to try and look at this as

13 a separate item from the DOE's perspective, what

14 would happen to this? Would it go straight to a NOPR

15 or would this come into a new rulemaking?

16 MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler, DOE. I

17 don't think we can answer that quite yet so we will

18 have to get back to you.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn?

20 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary with AHAM. I

21 think it's relevant. It's at least for me important

22 to know what DOE would think it would do because
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1 there are different consequences.

2 MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler, DOE. I

3 completely understand so I would like to take it back

4 and follow up on that. 

5 MR. RAMIREZ: So then procedurally is that

6 something that we can do similar to what we did this

7 morning. Do we have to take a break on that?

8 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean we only have --

9 since a couple of folks have to get a 4 o'clock

10 flight, I say we have our first official parking lot

11 item and that is the whole topic of ice makers and

12 then we can get back with everybody early on at the

13 next meeting or maybe we could clarify a position

14 over email or something of that effect. 

15 Depending on when the next meeting is, I

16 don't want a lot of time to elapse between our

17 resolution of this issue and this Committee so.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay then let's go ahead and

19 table that then, ice maker. And where do we go --

20 let's see hybrids then.

21 (Panel reading slide)

22 I will give you a moment to look at that
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1 definition and then see if we can tweak it to make it

2 work.

3 MR. MOUW: Javier I'm sorry. If we can

4 back up I just want to make sure that the

5 perspectives from AHAM are clear and I think Jenn

6 stated it but I know there was confusion about

7 initially what the push back was for ice makers so if

8 we could have a chance just to -- give Jenn a chance

9 just to restate our position on ice makers.

10 It was clear the second time I just want

11 to make sure that it was made clear because there was

12 confusion about the test procedure and that that was

13 the issue.

14 MR. HAGERMAN: I apologize, I didn't want

15 to confuse the test procedure. AHAM has been very

16 clear I think from the beginning of this in their

17 public comments and we should circulate your public

18 comments that are on the docket, you can read them. 

19 I don't think -- correct me if I am wrong. I don't

20 think your position has changed from your public

21 comments have they?

22 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary. No, our
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1 position hasn't changed from our public comments but

2 I think how we address it now that we are in

3 negotiation is what I am trying to express so I think

4 this group needs to decide in terms of the scope of

5 the negotiation what we discussed and negotiate and

6 what we don't and there is a difference to me in

7 whether ice makers is included in the negotiation and

8 we just don't reach an agreement and then it goes to

9 -- ice makers goes to NOPR with the rest of the

10 products that we do agree on.

11 Or if we say no, ice makers is not within

12 the scope even of what we are going to discuss in

13 this negotiation and that's where Sarah said DOE

14 would follow up on what path ice makers would take

15 after that or a third approach which would be that

16 this group would come to an agreement that we would

17 recommend that ice makers be covered or be addressed

18 rather in a separate rulemaking.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Maybe back to Javier, maybe

20 not that we are voting on anything right now, just

21 take a temperature check in the room of whether or

22 not we should include ice makers or not, whether this
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1 is a position of all of the manufacturers or not, and

2 once you ask that question we can just a quick thumb

3 up, thumb down, thumb in the middle.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: So again a temperature

5 check, we are not bound by this but where are we at

6 as far as the group including ice makers in your

7 discussions so I am asking yes they are included in

8 our discussions, let me see where you are at for a

9 proposed rule, let me see a show of thumbs. Do you

10 have a question Jenn?

11 MS. CLEARY: I'm not sure if that's really

12 the question. I think maybe I'm trying to think of

13 what the question would be. I think our suggestion

14 is that ice makers should be addressed in a separate

15 rule making so perhaps the question really is whether

16 it is that.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Well it is not binding, it's

18 not binding so either way.

19 MS. CLEARY: I understand but I am not

20 sure that I would know how to answer the first

21 question about whether it should be included in our

22 discussions.
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: So let's just ask multiple

2 questions then so first should it be included in this

3 discussion, yes or no. Second, should it be included

4 in a separate rule, yes or no.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so first one.

6 MR. MOUW: Sorry this is Nate, I'm sorry. 

7 The answer to the first is dependent on the second,

8 the second is dependent on the first.

9 MR. HAGERMAN: They are mutually exclusive

10 questions right.

11 MR. MOUW: But they are not.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: Why can't they be?

13 MR. MOUW: The answer to the first

14 question would depend on the direction or the answer

15 to the second question. 

16 MR. HAGERMAN: Would you like to ask a

17 third question then or a fourth question?

18 MR. MOUW: No I just think amend the

19 question.

20 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay then amend the

21 question then for us. 

22 MR. MOUW: A different proposal. Maybe we
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1 wait until we get feedback from the DOE on what would

2 happen if this group decides not to discuss it. 

3 MR. HAGERMAN: That's fair.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay I was trying to think

5 if there was another thing but I will leave it. All

6 right so then that puts us back to the hybrid

7 discussion, correct -- let's take a look at that

8 definition and see what we could work on that. Jenn?

9 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary with AHAM. I

10 think it's fair since I kept raising this that I

11 start off. AHAM's proposal in our written comments

12 was that -- or I guess I will start with our concern

13 with the way -- with the proposed definition and

14 treatment of hybrids is we are concerned that there

15 could be some products that would get a benefit from

16 being classified as a hybrid purely based on this

17 arbitrary percentage of at least half and so we would

18 rather see these products treated in a way that

19 wouldn't have that percentage basically to determine

20 it.

21 So our proposed in our comments and we

22 will make the same proposal here is that these
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1 products should be defined and I realize that each

2 product definition includes this so this would be

3 sort of -- we would have to work this into all the

4 definitions but you know as a refrigerating product

5 that includes a combination of one or more cellar

6 compartments and one or more refrigerator and/or

7 freezer compartments and it is very possible that we

8 need to refine that but the concept I think is what

9 is important to start discussing and that concept is

10 that if any compartment needs the cellar compartment

11 definition it would be considered a hybrid.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: And could you repeat that

13 again so Troy could capture it?

14 MS. CLEARY: A combination of one or more

15 cellar compartments and one or more refrigerator

16 and/or freezer compartments. 

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie?

18 MR. HON: I have two points. Number one

19 is we need to find cellar compartments. Number two

20 is generally the word generally in a regulation is

21 just -- that just doesn't fit at all.

22 MS. CLEARY: This is Jenn Cleary. I think
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1 that DOE proposed a definition for cellar

2 compartments so that is what we were using in our

3 proposal here.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Can you recall what that is?

5 MR. WATSON: This is Troy. I can email

6 you the cellar and one of the hybrid, one of the

7 specific hybrid definitions. This describes just

8 it's a general description of all of those

9 definitions so instead of putting each one up there

10 we will just put the requirement that makes them all

11 hybrids.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay yeah so if you could

13 work on that, that would be great.

14 MR. WATSON: Sure.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: So what do you all think of

16 that proposed definition?

17 MR. BALLO: This is Tim at Earthjustice. 

18 I guess I just want to understand a little better

19 what's the inequity that it's intended to address

20 that would happen if we used the percentage criteria

21 to separate products?

22 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary. I think I would
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1 ask maybe one of -- Bill, Nate, Dick, anyone to

2 describe that better than I can, I don't want to

3 confuse anyone.

4 MR. BROWN: This is Bill Brown with GE. 

5 Situation would be if you have got a cellar

6 compartment if you are defined as a hybrid then you

7 would be testing that compartment at a 55 degree

8 temperature and if you were to find as a refrigerator

9 that we put it as low as possible or coolest setting

10 that is the situation we are trying to address.

11 MR. BALLO: So the idea is the test, the

12 temperature at which you test if you are classified

13 as a refrigerator is not representative at what you

14 would use it as in the field?

15 MR. BROWN: That would be correct.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn, do you have something? 

17 So with that clarification or understanding rather

18 how does that definition look? 

19 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna, maybe just

20 another clarification is kind of the idea that this

21 would be similar to how refrigerator freezers are

22 treated today. You have two -- let's keep it simple
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1 let's say two compartments that are designed to be

2 kept at different temperatures and the standards

3 would take into effect or take into account the

4 relative volumes and the two compartments.

5 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary for the record I

6 will just nod my head and I will say yes.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Joe?

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Just one quick question. 

9 Generally what does generally mean? Right. Does

10 that mean nothing?

11 MR. BROWN: This is Bill with GE. Charlie

12 is exactly right. If I was writing the standard I

13 would never put a word like that in.

14 MS. CLEARY: I think Troy was just trying

15 to summarize what was in all of the other

16 definitions. It's not actually DOE's proposal.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: I didn't think it was DOE's

18 proposal but sometimes my consultants go crazy so.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Going rouge. 

20 MR. HAGERMAN: Generally that's the case.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so we added some

22 of the definitions up here. 
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1 (Panel reading the slide)

2 Trying to get all the definitions in on

3 one page -- Stephen, Chris, can you read that from

4 back there Mary? Okay.

5 (nodding heads yes).

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Dick?

7 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. For

8 consistency also these products would be tested at 90

9 degrees as well, it is not in there. 

10 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown with GE, they would

11 be capable of maintaining these temperatures in a 90

12 degree ambient?

13 MR. TOPPING: Yes.

14 MR. BROWN: Each time we talk about an

15 internal compartment temperature we have to speak

16 about what ambient that's what the ambient is.

17 MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson from

18 Navigant. Just to clarify in the test procedure

19 proposal that specification was included in the

20 Section 429 provisions so any time you see those pop

21 up in the definitions here that's effectively what

22 that is saying.
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1 MR. BROWN: Okay great, thank you.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so without

3 worrying about the exact verbiage at least not quite

4 yet there's a -- it's different right percentage

5 versus the idea of the compartments, does that work? 

6 Bill?

7 MR. BROWN: This is Bill with GE. I do

8 want to make sure I mean the copy of the NOPR that I

9 am looking at right now says 72 degrees so when it

10 talked about the 429.61 so if I'm agreeing to this

11 I'm agreeing that 429.61 has been changed to 90

12 degrees and not 72.

13 MR. WATSON: Yeah so I think all the

14 updates we are discussing would be kind of across the

15 board so if there's anything up top in the

16 refrigerator definition that has been changed

17 already, those would carry over.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Bill is that sufficient?

19 MR. BROWN: Bill, yes.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so I am going to

21 take a temperature check then on the verbiage of a

22 combination of one of more cellar compartments and
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1 one or more refrigerator and/or freezer compartments. 

2 Let's see a show of thumbs if we are okay with that

3 concept. 

4 (Thumb showing).

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Tim?

6 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earthjustice. 

7 I think maybe Joanna and maybe Chris and I might need

8 some time to vet that with people who have more

9 experience with the test procedure than we do and I'm

10 not saying right now that I would vote thumbs down, I

11 just don't think I have talked to everyone I need to

12 talk to to understand it.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: And, as far as timing goes

14 is that something that could be dealt with a break in

15 phone calls or is that something that we need to

16 return to at the next meeting?

17 MR. BALLO: Probably the next meeting.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Then procedurally where do

19 you all want to go because there are some things that

20 if we are going to try to operate and reach

21 conclusion on a compressed time schedule I think we

22 are going to have some homework here, right. We are
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1 probably going to have to exchange some emails and

2 see how much of this we could get wrapped up prior to

3 our next face to face. Would everyone be comfortable

4 with that?

5 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. I think

6 we have to be comfortable with that given the

7 assignment. I know we are sort of at a stopping

8 point but we still have time so we don't need to

9 stop. I would like to recommend we have dates to go

10 over still correct. We need to make closing remarks,

11 if you want to say some more things there is no

12 public to ask back there for public comment but I

13 guess there are some people on the phone that need to

14 speak if they want to speak.

15 Given that we still have some time before

16 it hits 4 o'clock maybe it would be good for Troy and

17 the Navigant team to go through the test procedure

18 part of the power point that I sent out or gave out

19 to everybody and go through that and see if there's

20 -- I mean obviously we are not going to vote on

21 anything today on those issues but at least go

22 through it so it could be fresh in everybody's mind.
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1 And then be prepared I think when we come

2 back at the next meeting time which is still to be

3 determined, we can close out the coverage all right

4 and then we can start getting the test procedures, is

5 that correct?

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Troy what I would ask -- the

7 documents that I have I don't know if it was the

8 final version or not, could you just email me those

9 slides and we can throw them up here just to make

10 sure that I have the most up-to-date version because

11 the ones that we were using yesterday those were on

12 Emily's computer.

13 I just want to make sure that we are

14 operating off of the correct version. Joanna?

15 MS. MAUER: I guess I am wondering if

16 maybe we could take five minutes to caucus briefly? 

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Sure actually that would

18 give me a chance to try to consolidate some of the

19 homework so that we could review that, so let's take

20 --

21 MR. HAGERMAN: And I don't want you to

22 think that I'm trying to run this program here,
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1 that's my proposal on what we can do for the last two

2 hours. If there is something else that somebody

3 would like to do, you know bring it forth all right.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so let's take five

5 minutes, we will come back.

6 (Break)

7 MR. RAMIREZ: All right let's go ahead and

8 start pulling this back in. And I think everyone

9 probably caught that the clock that was on the

10 computer screen was from my computer which is still

11 on Chicago time, so we only have about an hour left.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: So we just lost an hour

13 thanks Javier.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: I was here at 8 o'clock, or

15 9 o'clock.

16 MR. HAGERMAN: So this is Joe Hagerman. 

17 Since you all came back from caucusing is there

18 anything that you all resolved?

19 MR. BALLO: We resolved nothing.

20 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay good. 

21 Congratulations. It sounds like time well spent for

22 everybody, thank you. So I proposed just real quick
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1 -- Javier has us on a tight schedule since we lost an

2 hour. We are going to take 30 minutes to go over the

3 remainder of this deck and Troy made a good point

4 that we should probably revisit the product classes

5 just real quick at a high level, hopefully we can

6 keep this at a high level.

7 We are not going to take votes or anything

8 like that, I would like to walk away from here by

9 giving Navigant a sign that post us cutting up the

10 world that we just did, even though there are still

11 some unknowns or unresolved issues, that they could

12 start repackaging what analysis they have to better

13 inform us going forward right.

14 So to do that we have to get through some

15 of this product classes discussion so he is going to

16 go over that and then we will just present the test

17 procedures. I don't think we need to have much

18 discussion on it, I think he has some questions for

19 everybody to think about. But then come back at the

20 next set of meetings and hopefully we can resolve the

21 definitions, we will get a read back from our General

22 Counsel's office on what to do with the ice maker
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1 issue and then we can get into the meat of the test

2 procedure and take it from there, so -- does that

3 sound good to everybody? 

4 I'm sure I left out a whole bunch, but

5 remember I'm a civil engineer so. 

6 MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant. 

7 And right now really the only thing to talk about

8 regarding product classes is for the cooled cabinets. 

9 Everything else is kind of penciled in for further

10 discussion or decisions and based on the definitions

11 we have talked through the non-compressor

12 refrigerators kind of disappear at this point.

13 So for the cooled cabinets in the

14 preliminary analysis DOE just considered a single

15 product class and that's what the analysis to date is

16 based upon. And in response to the preliminary

17 analysis DOE received some comments on this and I

18 know yesterday I ran through these slides that

19 touched on some of these comments and I think the key

20 one is that -- or there are two key comments about

21 possibly splitting up cooled cabinets into additional

22 product classes.
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1 One was for separating out thermal

2 electric cooled cabinets and the other was separating

3 cooled cabinets into standard compact and built in

4 their freestanding product classes. So it would be

5 great to hear the group's thoughts on those. 

6 MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah and I think the groups

7 thoughts on those as it relates to giving them

8 direction on how to repackage the analysis they have

9 already done so we have some material and some meat

10 to get through when we reconvene.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Do you all understand the

12 question? Yes Dick?

13 MR. TOPPING: Yeah Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. 

14 The reason behind that suggestion is that you know as

15 cooled cabinets are not refrigerators as we have

16 heard over and over again for the last two days but

17 they are certainly in some respects similar to

18 refrigerators and are you know marketed and then

19 consumers kind of shop for them in somewhat the same

20 ways.

21 Anyhow -- and functionally the compressor

22 driven ones are somewhat -- so the arguments that
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1 apply to compact versus full size and freestanding

2 versus built-in apply to cooled cabinets as they do

3 to refrigerators and so for that reason the

4 suggestion that the same process that's been kind of

5 used to determine product classes through the years

6 for refrigerators, refrigerator freezers and freezers

7 really has applicability to cooled cabinets.

8 And if you look at the marketplace there

9 are you know free-standing and built-in products,

10 both full size and compact so. 

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn?

12 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary with AHAM and I

13 think Troy also mentioned that there was a comment

14 about separating non-compressor products into a

15 separate product class and that was not part of the

16 AHAM proposal so I don't think that's something that

17 we are proposing. 

18 MR. HAGERMAN: Right, I think we agree

19 after we carved up the world today the non-compressor

20 stuff would be moved in the cooled cabinets right? 

21 I'm sorry, non-compressor refrigerators would be

22 moved in the cooled cabinets.
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1 MR. WATSON: Yeah but just to clarify

2 those were all the product category definitions and

3 then those could all be split into separate product

4 classes if there is a consumer utility impact on

5 energy consumption.

6 Yeah and for the preliminary analysis we

7 only considered one but this was a comment we

8 received in response to the preliminary analysis so

9 I'm just throwing it out there for the group.

10 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, just commenting,

11 we wouldn't agree with that. I agree with what Troy

12 is saying, I'm saying we are suggesting four product

13 classes that Dick just discussed which is

14 free-standing compact, free-standing full size,

15 built-in compact, built-in full size. We are not

16 suggesting a fifth product class for a non-compressor

17 in the 61 for compressor. 

18 MR. WATSON: So I think one issue that we

19 would be faced with going forward with this is our

20 data situation. So if manufacturers have any

21 information on the energy consumption for those

22 different types of products, that would help us out
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1 quite a bit because like I said in the preliminary

2 analysis everything was lumped in together in this

3 one product class.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: So, Dick?

5 MR. TOPPING: Yeah Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. 

6 Two things, one is I think you will be visiting some

7 manufacturers as followed to discuss that. Also what

8 does seem to be a hole in the analysis quite honestly

9 when we get down to the standards discussion is that

10 I believe all of the analysis was done on 6 foot -- 6

11 cubic foot cooled cabinets and nothing bigger than

12 that. 

13 And you know that, you know is clearly a

14 hole.

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I follow up on that?

16 MR TOPPING: Yeah.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: You brought up something

18 that sort of relates to that. You said full size and

19 compact too, we would have to have a discussion on

20 you know what is full size and what's compact too so. 

21 MR. TOPPING: This is Dick I think we

22 would probably just suggest the same you know
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1 breakdown as what you have today.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: I would -- and you guys

3 would know, the manufacturers would know better than

4 me. Do these products sold on the market naturally

5 divide themselves into those existing category

6 classes or because they are wine units they are

7 typically smaller, do you follow the question?

8 MR. TOPPING: We can perhaps provide some

9 data you know on that.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: What other data do you need? 

11 What other information do the manufacturers have here

12 that would be beneficial for you?

13 MR. WATSON: Well we are always interested

14 in cost data, shipments, market information, but I

15 know that's information that the group probably isn't

16 willing to share in this setting but like Dick

17 mentioned Navigant is available for accepting data

18 under an NDA where it will only be available for us

19 for consideration in our analysis and wouldn't be

20 made publicly available so if there is any data that

21 manufacturers are willing to share onto that route we

22 would definitely appreciate it there too.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: So we will see a show of

2 hands of the takers?

3 MR. HAGERMAN: I think everybody is pretty

4 familiar how to work with Navigant in that capacity,

5 the NDA just to say again you know that is not

6 subject to any Freedom From Information Requests and

7 they actually don't disclose to us the manufacturers,

8 they just disclose to us aggregate numbers. We don't

9 even know --

10 MR. RAMIREZ: And Troy you will reach out

11 to the manufacturers and work on that then.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: And Troy also we failed to

13 re-mention that we are always looking for thermal

14 electric manufacturers and more information on those

15 units so notwithstanding that is always out there.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn then Dick?

17 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary with AHAM. If

18 Navigant would be willing to provide us with some

19 kind of a data request I could see if AHAM members

20 could provide that data to AHAM and then we could

21 provide it not only to Navigant but maybe also to the

22 group because it would already be aggregated so I
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1 could talk about that with our members.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Dick?

3 MR. TOPPING: Yeah and just in answer to

4 your question I mean this whole issue of compacts and

5 full size and built-ins and freestanding you know

6 goes back through 35 years of regulatory analysis for

7 regulated products, refrigerators, refrigerator

8 freezers and freezers and so I mean the arguments

9 that -- or the rationale or the need for looking at

10 compacts differently than full size units and looking

11 at built-in units differently than freestanding

12 units, those arguments are relevant for cooled

13 cabinets just as they are for refrigerators.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay Charlie, good? 

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Javier just so we can have

16 it on the record it sounds like one of the homework's

17 is for Navigant to send AHAM that data request and

18 then we will take it from there.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah and I am going to

20 summarize all of the homework assignments before we

21 leave today, there's plenty. Jenn?

22 MS. CLEARY: I'm just wondering if maybe
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1 some of the other stakeholders might want to share

2 and I'm not asking if you agree or disagree with this

3 proposal but it would be nice to get a sense of what

4 your questions might be or your thoughts might be

5 going to.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I say one thing in the

7 past the last negotiated rulemaking that I did a

8 similar situation -- we had sort of two trade groups

9 and then some independent's and one trade group

10 aggregated their members, another trade group sort of

11 aggregated their members and then we got some

12 independents. They all submitted the data to

13 Navigant and then Navigant compiled it all as one

14 aggregate for the entire group right, so that's one

15 way to operate.

16 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary, that sounds

17 great. I guess I was asking more like on a higher

18 level for feedback on our suggestion of the four

19 product classes. If that is something that other

20 stakeholders are open to or not. 

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Tim?

22 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earthjustice. 
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1 To the extent that was directed at the efficiency

2 advocates -- I mean, I think you know we are on

3 record back a few years ago as opposing this separate

4 product class for built-ins but you know we lost that

5 so I don't necessarily see a principal distinction

6 for treating these products differently and so you

7 know if we have a separate product class for

8 built-ins I guess I'm okay with doing it for cooled

9 cabinets as well.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Troy do you have some

11 more?

12 MR. WATSON: Yeah just a follow-up

13 question on the effects of separating out the product

14 classes. The preliminary analysis to this point

15 considered efficiencies and efficiency levels based

16 on the existing California regulations and that's

17 just one equation based on product volumes. So if

18 anybody has feedback as to how that equation as the

19 baseline for us to work off of would change or would

20 not be as appropriate for these new product classes,

21 I think that would be useful for us too.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Does anybody have anything
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1 like that? Any information like that?

2 MR. WATSON: Or another way to ask would

3 be if anyone has information as to what that equation

4 was based on. I've gone back through the CC website

5 and it is kind of difficult to find the historical

6 support for their information so if there is a

7 typical product that represents that would be useful

8 to know.

9 MR. KUCH: This is Chris with Southern

10 California Edison. I probably have a contact for you

11 so we can probably touch bases later.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: All right Troy do you have

13 any other information that you want to go through?

14 MR. WATSON: I think from there it might

15 be good to just touch on the test procedure quickly

16 because there are some issues with cooled cabinets

17 that would then affect our analysis again so the key

18 thing here would be the ambient temperature and I

19 know we have gone through this in terms of the

20 definitions but just because we are defining

21 compartment temperatures under a certain ambient

22 doesn't necessarily mean the products would be tested
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1 in that ambient for the purposes of determining

2 energy use.

3 So in the NOPR proposal we presented some

4 data showing that for non-compressor cooled cabinets,

5 the energy use results get skewed when you test them

6 in a 90 degree ambient. When you test them in a 72

7 degree ambient they are able to maintain temperatures

8 and the energy uses fall out kind of where you expect

9 them to based on product sizes and features. 

10 When you go to 90 those change -- one

11 because they are not able to maintain the compartment

12 temperatures and two because products are designed

13 with different cooling capacities so some of them are

14 working hard at 72 already and there is no room for

15 them to do any better at the 90 degree ambient so the

16 energy use result is the same, that doesn't really

17 make sense conceptually.

18 So it would be great to get the group's

19 feedback on whether the proposed 72 degree test is

20 appropriate for these types of products, especially

21 given the changes we have had to the definitions in

22 our discussions.
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1 And to just go a step further we did

2 receive comments on this. Some of them supported

3 testing in the 72 degree ambient, some of them

4 supported testing in the 90 degree ambient but those

5 again were under the context of the definitions

6 having the 72 degree Fahrenheit ambient clarification

7 so I'm not sure if those comments would still apply

8 given the discussion we have had this morning.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Jenn?

10 MS. CLEARY: Jenn Cleary with AHAM. Our

11 comment supported the 90 degree ambient condition and

12 it would still hold given the changes we talked about

13 earlier. And the reasons I think I discussed

14 yesterday which were the consumer representativeness

15 so I am not going to go through those again today

16 unless anyone wants me to.

17 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. As I said

18 yesterday it seems to me that testing at 72 would be

19 more representative but I appreciate the additional

20 information about the test burden involved with

21 testing some products at 90 and other products at 72

22 and I guess regardless we were concerned with the
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1 proposal that tests cooled cabinets using certain

2 technologies at one ambient temperature and others at

3 another.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Did you have that Troy?

5 MR. WATSON: Yeah I think it might help if

6 I can put the data from the test procedure NOPR up

7 here and that might help show where these issues are

8 so I'm just throwing something on the slide real

9 quick and I'll send it over to Javier.

10 (Making a slide on his computer)

11 It's not pretty but it's the data that was

12 included in the test procedure NOPR. So the issue

13 here was the intent of the 90 degree test to simulate

14 operation in the 72 degrees with door openings and

15 loading. The issue with these non-compressor cooled

16 cabinets is the effect of the temperature itself is

17 kind of all over the place so you could see for one

18 unit it almost quadrupled at the 90 compared at the

19 72 while another unit, the energy use was relatively

20 unchanged. 

21 So since the effects of the increased

22 ambient were inconsistent for product-to-product, we
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1 felt that the approach of using a higher ambient and

2 then applying a usage factor for these products

3 wouldn't be appropriate for all products on the

4 market. 

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Bill?

6 MR. BROWN: This is Bill Brown with GE. 

7 Were all these products that you tested certified to

8 California, because I'm looking at that second one

9 especially if it were tested under California

10 regulations, 647 kilowatt hours a year for 1.1 which

11 would not meet the standard at all.

12 And secondly the other question I have is

13 for sample number 3 that seems pretty obvious from

14 the data it was running 100% at 72 degrees and what

15 temperature was it maintaining at 72 versus the

16 temperature it was maintaining at 90, it just looked

17 from this data that it wasn't even working at 72

18 degrees.

19 MR. WATSON: So I don't think I have that

20 data handy right now in terms of compartment

21 temperatures but the CC listings I believe all the

22 products we were testing were certified. Actually,
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1 actually no -- these thermal electric units may not

2 have been but I am not positive on that point either.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Dick?

4 MR. TOPPING: Yeah Dick Topping, Sub-Zero. 

5 You know Joe was talking about dead horses earlier. 

6 I just keep thinking of the you know, the tail

7 wagging the dog analogy here. We spent a whole lot

8 of time yesterday talking about 90 degree testing,

9 the fact that it has a great track record. We test,

10 you know, thousands of models and we have for the

11 years you know using that test and it has served the

12 industry and the consumer actually, you know quite

13 well.

14 I mean the fact that there are certain

15 products that don't do well on that test I mean is

16 clearly an issue but I am not sure that that is a

17 justification for changing the test or you know,

18 there are other things that perhaps could be done but

19 you know we have a system that works now. It works

20 for the best, the majority of the products that we

21 are talking about and do we really want to change it.

22 MR. WATSON: Right and I see what you are
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1 saying and it works for the products that it was

2 intended for so these vapor compression products up

3 to this point and I would have to tie it back to the

4 intent of the elevated ambient temperature which is

5 to tie it back to consumer use and these results

6 suggest that that isn't what's happening for these

7 products you know, at ambient.

8 MR. TOPPING: You know this is Dick, but

9 in spite of DOE's statutory problems that we have

10 heard about this morning, the utility of these

11 products is pretty much the same, you know they are

12 -- whether they have a compressor or not they are

13 supposed to provide a certain utility to the

14 consumer.

15 MR. HAGERMAN: So Joe Hagerman, DOE. I

16 don't think we feel strongly to be honest with you

17 either way, we just want to give you all of the

18 information so you could see that there is a big

19 different here right? So I think everybody has a

20 right to know that information and I think that's why

21 we wanted to present it right.

22 What the Committee ultimately decides to
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1 do we know we will likely go along with it but it is

2 a pretty stark difference there.

3 MR. WATSON: Yeah and to follow-up on that

4 it's kind of a question at this point of how this

5 feeds into the downstream analysis if it is changed

6 because you could see the analysis in the preliminary

7 analysis was conducted on the 72 ambient products. 

8 If we switched to the 90 it may be suggesting certain

9 things or technology options when those aren't

10 appropriate.

11 So unit 3 here is switching to a unit that

12 is working at full capacity at 72 but that's not

13 actually a more efficient unit because it is not

14 maintaining those temperatures in the 90. There's

15 just issues -- other issues I could see down the

16 road.

17 MR. BROWN: This is Bill with GE. I mean

18 let's look at this unit number 3, you are including

19 this in your sample size and obviously this is a unit

20 that is not even doing what it is supposed to be

21 doing. You -- it's running 100% at 72 degrees and it

22 is only trying to keep a 55 degree internal
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1 temperature, assuming that's what you tried to keep

2 it out, so only a 17 degree Delta T and it can't do

3 that. It's running full out at that rate.

4 So any temperature above that obviously it

5 is not going to work either. I'm just wondering why

6 you would include in your analysis a unit that just

7 cannot perform to begin with. And what am I supposed

8 to take from that -- that I should be revising the

9 standards to allow products that don't work to give

10 them an energy rating?

11 It just looks like a product you wouldn't want.

12 If I were to buy this product I would

13 return it. It doesn't seem to provide any customer

14 utility if I can't maintain wine temperatures at a

15 mere 72 degrees with no door openings. 

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Joanna?

17 MS. MAUER: So I think there was a similar

18 situation with the non-compressor refrigerators that

19 you tested that I guess all of them couldn't maintain

20 the target compartment temperature 90 degrees so I

21 believe the proposal was to extrapolate the energy

22 use results to estimate what the energy use would be
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1 if they were maintaining the target compartment

2 temperature.

3 I guess I am wondering is that a potential

4 option here to test at 90 degrees at the lowest

5 compartment temperature that the unit can reach and

6 then extrapolate to the 55 degree compartment

7 temperature?

8 MR. WATSON: Yeah that was an approach we

9 could take. It wasn't considered up to this point

10 because it was based on the 72 degree testing. But

11 yeah if maybe it would be good to get the group's

12 feedback if that's more appropriate than testing at

13 72 without applying any factor.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Bill?

15 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown with GE. As

16 everyone knows that was a procedure in the Appendix

17 A1 and the Appendix B1 and it was removed by DOE for

18 very good reasons, one of those being that you're

19 rating a product -- you are giving a test result to a

20 product that that unit could never consume that many

21 kilowatt hours per year if you are extrapolating the

22 data.
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1 For example on this one that I'm testing

2 at 90, if I am extrapolating what would it be -- this

3 product here could not use any more, regardless what

4 ambient you put it in and 550 kilowatt hours a year

5 but you would be getting a test result of 7 - 800,

6 900 kilowatt hours for year for this product so it's

7 -- now that's a problem I have with extrapolating. 

8 We have a statement when we take our six Sigmund

9 classes you never extrapolate data and so that's the

10 one thing you are proposing and just as an engineer I

11 would have an issue with extrapolating data,

12 especially saying that a product uses more energy

13 than it possibly can.

14 MR. WATSON: Just to clarify there. I

15 might have misspoke a little -- so for the

16 non-compressor refrigerator proposal, the energy use

17 results would be based on its coolest setting

18 regardless of which temperature the compartment was

19 achieving and that would be its energy use rating and

20 then the extrapolation would be applied when it comes

21 to determining whether it complies with any potential

22 standards. So it would be factored into the maximum
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1 allowable energy use for that product.

2 The energy use rating would be based on

3 the energy use as tested and that's for the

4 non-compressor refrigerators where somehow they

5 couldn't reach temperature. For the other product

6 types DOE did propose bringing back the extrapolation

7 approach because under the proposal products wouldn't

8 be able to maintain the temperature in the 90 degree

9 test but the previous proposal had included that

10 those products maintain temperature under the 72 so

11 for that reason DOE brought back the extrapolation

12 for those types of products.

13 MR. BROWN: This is Bill with GE. I mean

14 you are showing a sample here of a product that

15 cannot maintain temperature at 72. I just want make

16 that statement, you are showing data that contradicts

17 that.

18 MR. WATSON: So yeah that was generally

19 across the board for NCR's non-compressor

20 refrigerators, that's where we had the approach of

21 not extrapolating, taking the energy use result as

22 tested and then applying the extrapolation after the
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1 fact and I think that is something that would apply

2 to these products as well since we observed that many

3 of these can't maintain temperatures under the 90

4 degree.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman so we are

6 pretty much at our cut-off because there are some

7 other things that we want to do. 

8 MR. WATSON: Just one more point -- one

9 more clarification to add in here. I would like to

10 point out that under the proposed cooled cabinet

11 definition that we have been discussing there's no

12 minimum temperature threshold that the cabinets must

13 be able to achieve. It only mentions 39 or higher so

14 if the ability of products to perform under 90 is

15 something that the group is trying to add to

16 definitions that would be the place for it but right

17 now anything regardless of if it's 75 degrees in a 90

18 degree ambient that would still be considered a

19 cooled cabinet.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. 

21 MR. HAGERMAN: So I think Navigant -- I'm

22 going to speak for Navigant right now because I want
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1 to ask them to do this anyway so I think they have

2 enough information given our previous discussions

3 about definitions and some of the general product

4 classes discussed here today to repackage their

5 analysis in a form that would be beneficial for the

6 first take of the next set of meetings. And we have

7 all this data tested -- I'm going to step away from

8 the extrapolation stuff at 72 and 90 and I think we

9 can easily apply different usage factors to it so we

10 will just go ahead and show you all of our work, show

11 you all of those different combinations and then when

12 we reconvene we can start making decisions.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Bill?

14 MR. BROWN: Yeah one quick question. 

15 Let's just assume that this product were tested and

16 it got to 70 degrees and a 90 instead of 55. So you

17 couldn't get an energy rating, would you require the

18 manufacturer to get a waiver for that product because

19 you cannot get an energy use from the test? Much

20 like the current refrigerators and the freezers in

21 today's standard. 

22 MR. WATSON: So it depends on where the
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1 test procedure ends up. If the test procedure ends

2 up with an approach like was proposed for

3 non-compressor refrigerators, the energy use rating

4 could be based on the as tested energy use under the

5 cold setting and then any applicable standard for

6 that product could then be adjusted based on whatever

7 compartment temperature that product was able to

8 achieve.

9 Or if the group feels it's more

10 appropriate to use the extrapolation approach, that

11 could be applied but likely saw sometimes these

12 products are working just as hard at 72 or at the

13 cold and warm settings that there is no delta there

14 to extrapolate upon so it depends.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so let's go ahead

16 and look at dates and see if we can lock those down

17 and then we will open up for any closing comments and

18 public comment. So of the dates that we were

19 exploring yesterday, May 20th we as facilitators need

20 to take that one off just because as many bodies as

21 you saw up here, we can't get the four lined up so

22 May 20th won't work, but of the other dates we could
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1 get coverage.

2 So the other date was May 27th and May

3 28th, how does that look for everyone, May 27th and

4 May 28th? And let me back it up. Is that going to

5 be enough time to pull together any -- okay so May

6 27th and May 28th how does that look? Okay. No,

7 okay. All right, then --

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman. When you

9 comment as to you couldn't do it could you specify

10 you couldn't do it here in DC but you could call in

11 just so we could get some better --

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Chris is that --

13 MR. KUCH: This is Chris with Edison I

14 can't make it or call in. I will have to bring my

15 alternate in that case.

16 MR. ORMAN: This means you can be present,

17 this means you can call on this, this means you

18 can't.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Excuse me that will get

20 confusing however what we could do is for just if it

21 is a go on the date -- let's look at the next date

22 and see if June 11th and 12th works, if it doesn't
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1 then we have to back up and see -- 

2 MR. TOPPING: Javier just a point for

3 discussion. I mean given that we have made a great

4 start here, I think it's really important for the

5 next meeting too to have absolutely everybody here if

6 at all possible. I mean I can see after that maybe

7 there's more of an opportunity to have more people

8 participate you know, via the phone but you know we

9 are team building now too as well, I think it's

10 justified.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Well let's look at June 11th

12 and 12th how does that look for everyone? That was

13 the next date that we had thrown out. All right,

14 George are you still with us? Okay. I didn't see a

15 thumbs down, all right so we are looking at June 11th

16 and 12th.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: So June 11th starting at 9?

18 MR. RAMIREZ: I believe so, we are looking

19 at full days right. Well to that point being

20 realistic, on the 12th are we talking about a 5

21 o'clock end time or are we talking about a 4 o'clock

22 end time? 4 o'clock end time so folks could grab
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1 flights all right, just so we align expectations

2 because I would hate for somebody to leave here and

3 say if I knew we were going to be leaving at 4 I

4 could have caught the whatever flight.

5 So the 12th will be until 4 o'clock.

6 MR. TOPPING: Could we start earlier on

7 the 12th?

8 MR. RAMIREZ: We are all in town, yeah.

9 MR. HAGERMAN: And Earthjustice will bring

10 coffee is that what I heard?

11 MR. BALLO: I will put that into my budget

12 for this.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: If you could get it past

14 security, how's that. All right so then the next

15 days that we had were July 8th and 9th. Let's see

16 a show of thumbs for July 8th and 9th.

17 (Thumb voting).

18 I see a few thumbs down so let's look at

19 the next one, July 15th and 16th. All right, I'm

20 seeing fewer thumbs down on the 15th and the 16th

21 because the next one that we have -- we only have two

22 other dates that we were proposing that was August
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1 11th and 12th let me see a show of thumbs for 11th

2 and 12th. All right so that one is good.

3 Same time 9 to 5 and 8 to 4. Okay and

4 then the last one that we had was August 18th and

5 19th.

6 (Thumb voting).

7 All right so the only thumb down is

8 Stephen. Stephen at that point what is your comfort

9 level of participating either online or with an

10 alternate? 

11 MR. SCHAEFER: I would probably have to go

12 with an alternate. I already have an NRA -- I mean

13 not NRA but NSF joint committee meeting in Ann Arbor,

14 Michigan.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Well yeah there's two

16 different NRA's right.

17 MR. SCHAEFER: No NSF.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah which one.

19 MR. SCHAEFER: Lots of names, sorry.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so then Stephen

21 are you okay then with an alternate on that day?

22 MR. SCHAEFER: Yeah I can try for an
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1 alternate on that day. And then so then we would

2 have July 11th-12th, August 11th-12th and August

3 18-19. Do we need to revisit -- June 11th - 12th,

4 August 11th - 12th and August 18-19. With that do we

5 have to revisit --

6 MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on what happened to

7 July 15th and 16th?

8 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm going back right now

9 because we had a couple thumbs down on July 15th,

10 16th.

11 MS. CLEARY: Are we really -- do we think

12 we can be prepared for two meetings in two weeks?

13 MR. RAMIREZ: You know what yeah, are you

14 talking about 11, 12 and 18, 19?

15 MS. CLEARY: Yeah.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: At that point I think we

17 probably can, I think --

18 MR. HAGERMAN: So right so we can -- can

19 we revisit that, let's first lock a July date.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: The only other date that we

21 had was the 15th -16th. Let me see the show of

22 thumbs again for 15-16, let me see who had a conflict
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1 there.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: The conflicts meaning you

3 cannot call in?

4 MR. RAMIREZ: All right so what about your

5 comfort level with alternates on that day?

6 MR. BROWN: This is Bill, I could send an

7 alternate.

8 MR. KUCH: This is Chris, I can too.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay so then we will lock

10 that one in with alternates. And again same times 9

11 to 5 and 8 to 4 -- so going back Joe to the back to

12 backs, what's your 11, 12, 18, 19.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: So what I would tell

14 everybody go ahead and arrange plane flights for --

15 gauge your comfort level, this is all going to get

16 through of course, 11th and 12th, July 15th and 16th,

17 August 11th and 12th and then don't book the 18th and

18 19th and we may be able to move that last one or not

19 need it, depending on how we go right. 

20 MR. RAMIREZ: So we might have a better

21 feel by the 15-16 about that 18th.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: Towards the end of the
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1 process we usually are just refining things and

2 Navigant and whoever is doing the analysis turns it

3 around superfast just because we pressure them hard

4 to do that so likewise and someone caught this

5 yesterday but I don't want to make a big deal about

6 it -- the first meeting was on May 4th right,

7 yesterday right, my mom's birthday May 4th so yes it

8 was yesterday -- technically since the first meeting

9 was on May 4th we have until September 4th, not

10 August 31st -- I don't know if anybody caught that so

11 we have a little bit more time if we wanted to

12 exercise it.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: So we will revisit the days

14 then on the 15th and 16th just to see how both of

15 them look for everyone. All right.

16 MR. HAGERMAN: Does everyone feel

17 comfortable with that?

18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right then public

19 comments, Emily could you -- is anyone left? All

20 right.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: Do you want to unmute

22 everybody just in case. So everybody is unmuted,
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1 please speak up and give public comments if you feel

2 so compelled.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Going once, going twice, all

4 right. So then as far as homework goes this is what

5 I have identified so far and what I would ask is

6 anyone in the room if there was anything that I

7 missed let me know and I will add it. 

8 Tim you are going to look at the hybrid

9 definition compartment versus percentage and see what

10 the comfort level is there. 

11 Jenn you are going to look at adding

12 integral to the different definitions with your

13 group.

14 Navigant you are going to send out

15 information requests to AHAM as well as the

16 manufacturers for the data that you would find

17 beneficial.

18 The working group as a whole will identify

19 their alternates by close of business on Friday. 

20 DOE you are going to find out if this

21 group does not take up ice makers what do you do.

22 DOE is going to provide whatever partial
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1 analysis or information you have on non-compressor

2 freezers. I think there is some information that you

3 had on that. Joanna that was from your request

4 before?

5 MS. MAUER: I think it was actually

6 non-integral compressor refrigerators.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Non-integral compressor

8 refrigerators. All right and then DOE will also

9 provide updated analysis information based on today's

10 modifications on the verbiage and the temperatures so

11 whatever modified information that you have you will

12 provide that.

13 Was there any information that was going

14 to be compiled on the cooled cabinets, the four

15 categories? 

16 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. I just

17 wrote down a note that we are going to repackage our

18 analysis and so we will repackage the analysis given

19 the conversation today which will be in the four

20 categories and will be at the 72 and the 90 and

21 potentially different usage factors.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: And then not so fast

2 Javier, I think you have some homework too.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm getting there next. I

4 have three points. We are going to clean up the

5 definition sheet and send that out, an updated

6 agenda, or cleaned up agenda as well as a brief

7 summary. Is there anything else on my list?

8 All right.

9 MR. HAGERMAN: Other than a thank you note

10 because we all appreciated everybody's time coming

11 out here and it was a really interesting and

12 thoughtful discussion so I think we are making good

13 progress and we appreciate your continued commitment

14 to make this a success.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah and to Dick's point as

16 far as the team building, it does take a little bit

17 of time for the group to get comfortable and just

18 being able to get into a flow. We actually call it

19 the Performing Storming Norman Performance Status of

20 group dynamics so hopefully you will get a little

21 closer to that performing stage and really get

22 rolling. Thank you all and we will see you all on
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1 June 11th and 12th.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: So I think we can conclude

3 off the record but it would be nice to hear from you

4 all what you think we can be doing to make things

5 better or smoother, feel free.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Anything that you like, that

7 you want to make sure we keep doing and anything that

8 we can do better or different.

9 OFF THE RECORD.

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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A

a.m 1:11

A1 178:17

Aaaaaa 9:19

ability 30:7 75:11

138:11 181:14

able 3:4 6:11 13:12

17:4 24:21 36:5

47:19 51:7 64:16

74:17 81:10,16,18

105:21 109:17

124:14,15 170:7

170:11 180:8

181:13 183:7

189:18 193:18

absent 29:11 41:20

absolutely 185:5

absorption 23:10

51:13 54:7 112:14

AC 84:1 88:21

89:21 90:9,16,21

92:6 95:6 118:13

accelerated 3:13

accept 59:8,11

accepting 164:17

accessories 117:12

accommodate 44:11

44:12

account 13:13 16:16

93:3 151:3

accumulated 6:9

accurate 17:13

104:4

achieve 181:13

183:8

achieving 179:19

activities 4:21

activity 47:22 74:17

actual 78:10 95:14

139:11

adapt 90:9

adapter 90:7,22

92:20,20 93:5

114:12 118:14

119:4,8

adaptor 114:16

add 5:1 22:10,11

28:8 30:9,12

31:17 51:6 67:11

71:11,12 79:11

85:21 87:4 118:6

131:16 181:9,15

191:7

add-on 67:21

added 32:14,17,20

46:5 48:10 86:11

89:13 112:8

151:21

adding 29:19 33:1

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139:2 191:11

addition 33:12

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additional 45:10

86:14 122:12,15

159:21 171:19

address 16:9 26:7

26:19 33:20 57:15

58:10 94:1 100:19

106:21 125:5,18

136:19 144:2

149:19 150:10

addressed 75:8 78:3

78:17 144:17

145:14

addresses 116:13

adhere 28:15

adjusted 183:6

administrative 19:4

19:10 34:5,6

adopt 42:6

adopted 41:21

adopting 36:20

advances 11:14

adverse 41:21

advice 74:18

advocates 168:2

affect 169:17

afraid 68:10

agenda 193:6,6

aggregate 165:8

167:14

aggregated 165:22

167:10,11

ago 18:6 67:20

168:3

agree 15:14 35:21

48:15 59:18 100:3

103:19 111:9

121:19 139:10

144:10 161:18

162:11,11 167:2

agreed 100:2 103:6

105:13 109:18

agreeing 36:6

110:15 153:10,11

agreement 100:4

144:8,16

agrees 59:19

AHAM 2:11 4:22

107:21 125:21

130:11 136:16

141:20 143:5,15

147:9 161:12,16

165:17,19,20

166:17 171:10

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ahead 9:2 40:19

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61:18 76:8 77:6

98:20 136:2

142:18 157:7

182:10 183:15

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air 37:15,15 38:13

akin 29:13,17

align 186:1

allot 108:14

allow 67:1 177:9

allowable 180:1

allowance 65:8

allowed 10:21

alternate 184:15

187:10,12,21

188:1 189:7

alternates 189:5,10

191:19

alternating 84:4

91:8 92:5 94:4,13

95:21 97:1 113:12

114:9,15 116:17

116:22 118:4,11

alternation 96:3

alternative 97:1

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alternator 91:22

amazed 6:7

ambient 20:19

60:14 81:6,12

82:7 104:11

105:20 152:12,16

152:16 169:18,21

170:1,6,7,15

171:3,4,6,11

172:2,22 173:1

175:4,7 176:7

179:4 181:18

ambiguities 107:2

ambiguity 46:6

ambiguous 80:16

amend 18:7 111:14

120:13 146:18,20

amended 32:17

amending 44:18

amendments 20:10

24:7 130:16

America 2:17,18

4:8,16 95:4 96:16

138:9 139:10,21

141:12

analogy 174:7

analysis 14:7 16:9

16:10,13,15 21:10

21:12,15 22:19

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49:21 82:9 109:12

110:12,13 122:19

123:3,4,5,12

124:9,13 158:12

159:14,15,17

160:8 162:6,8

163:2,8,10 164:19

166:6 168:14

169:17 176:5,6,7

177:6 182:5 190:2

192:1,9,18,18

analysts 36:12

analytics 48:20

analyzed 49:3

105:17,19

and/or 58:2 68:15

148:6,16 154:1

anecdotal 11:13

Ann 187:13

announcements 3:6

ANSI 14:16,19 15:1

64:5 132:20

ANSI/NSF 63:21

answer 36:12,15

37:1,5 41:6 48:12

48:12 56:3,11

57:10,12 70:4,16

70:22 74:22 79:6

79:8 83:7 84:11

116:7 125:19

141:17 145:20

146:7,13,14 166:3

anybody 112:9

168:18,22 190:10

anyway 182:1

apologize 143:14

Appearances 2:1

appears 60:14

Appendix 178:16

178:17

Appliance 2:10,15

5:5

Appliances 5:7

applicability 161:7

applicable 32:14

183:5

application 28:5

67:1

applications 55:18

55:19 65:2 69:12

70:1 72:8,8 91:20

93:1,7

applied 64:1 67:2

179:20 183:11

applies 31:22 32:20

44:21 45:1,4,7

46:2,14 55:6

106:1

apply 14:17 16:3

22:16 27:17 31:16

32:2 33:6,10

34:16 35:3,12

45:13,21 46:4

48:9 95:1 116:19

123:7 130:5 161:1

161:2 171:7 181:1

182:9

applying 21:6 33:8

35:21 173:2

178:13 180:22

appreciate 164:22

171:19 193:13

appreciated 193:10

approach 22:11,14

37:8 69:17 103:15

108:3 144:15

173:1 178:8 180:7

180:20 183:2,10

appropriate 168:20

170:20 173:3

176:10 178:12

183:10

approval 122:6

approved 77:16

arbitrary 147:17

Arbor 187:13

area 139:13

arguable 118:12

argument 133:10

arguments 135:4

160:22 166:8,12

ARMSTRONG

54:11 55:10 56:2

56:16 57:1,20

59:15,20 60:6

67:13 68:5,12,18

68:21 70:10 71:21

72:5,16,20 73:21

79:5

arrange 189:14

ASAP 2:16

Ashley 7:12 13:17

116:8
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May 5, 2015

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aside 32:18 100:18

100:22

asked 128:15

asking 34:18,19

38:16 57:10 61:22

82:6,21 83:4

112:3 141:12

145:7 167:2,17

aspect 84:8

ASRAC 1:2 3:16,17

4:18,19 5:1 17:3

42:11 51:14

assembling 6:4

assembly 104:3

105:4 106:2

111:18 131:11

assigned 4:19

assignment 155:7

assignments 166:20

associated 21:11

Association 2:10

assume 182:15

assumes 134:12,16

assuming 105:12

177:1

attached 114:11

attack 72:14

attempt 126:15

129:21

attempting 10:6

attending 53:3

augment 28:8

August 186:22

187:4 188:2,2,4,4

189:17 190:10

authority 29:2

91:17

auto 84:10

automatic 133:15

available 51:9 98:22

107:18 164:17,18

164:20

Avenue 1:8

avoid 19:13 90:10

avoidance 14:21

avoiding 134:7

aware 29:15 50:17

51:15 102:7,10

123:2

Awareness 2:15 5:6

B

B1 178:17

baby 6:4

back 4:20 8:21 11:2

11:9,19 15:6 17:3

25:7 27:2,3 32:16

33:3 35:12 39:6

43:20 46:9 52:9

52:13,14,18,18,22

53:11 58:8 62:19

75:3,16 76:13,22

76:22 77:20,20

79:6 83:10 86:13

91:5,6 97:9

100:10 108:7,20

119:19,22 120:14

126:7,20 127:10

129:6,9 130:16

131:9 132:17

141:18 142:3,12

143:4,7 144:19

147:6 152:4

155:12 156:2

157:5,8,17 158:19

158:21 166:6

168:3 169:4 175:3

175:5 180:6,11

184:4 185:1 188:8

189:11,11

background 37:11

39:22

backs 189:12

bake 58:21

ball 6:14

Ballo 2:8 4:9,9 17:7

17:15 19:12,20

20:6 25:11 26:4

27:13 30:14 31:21

33:7,15,19 34:3,9

34:15 35:1,13,18

36:16 41:15 42:4

46:11 53:15 54:1

54:12 55:5 57:9

57:15 90:4 93:22

94:11 96:22

103:10,10 104:1

106:18 107:12

109:21 116:12,21

127:6 130:3 131:5

131:9,14,18,21

141:1 149:17

150:11 154:6,17

157:19 167:22

186:11

bands 95:7

Bantle 3:8 5:13,13

103:7

Barkas 3:1,2 4:2

5:17 7:18 27:2

50:4 82:19 83:1,7

93:20 94:9 96:11

barriers 11:3

based 6:18 20:20

26:11 40:6 56:7

57:3 59:3,6,8

70:11,12 79:12

80:3 91:16 117:9

126:6 147:16

159:10,16 168:15

168:17 169:4

170:9 178:10

179:17 180:2

183:4,6 192:9

baseline 168:19

bases 169:11

basic 133:14 135:5

basically 14:4 74:15

90:20 93:16,17

133:13 138:10

147:19

basis 87:13 112:10

batteries 91:15

battery 29:5 86:21

91:22 92:1

beat 13:1 53:19

beating 7:2 54:1

becoming 120:3

beginning 76:14

108:14 128:8

143:16

beginnings 140:4

believe 7:14 11:2

17:2 25:22 30:6

47:10 53:1 69:10

69:19 83:9 99:2

100:4 129:11

163:10 173:21

177:21 185:18

beneficial 25:10

77:11 164:12

182:5 191:17

benefit 147:15

Berkeley 5:19

best 12:3 92:13

99:11 174:20

better 7:17 16:10,19

46:18 68:22 75:8

75:19 80:18 85:20

109:12 110:5,14

119:15 149:18

150:2 158:12

164:3 170:15

184:11 189:20

194:5,8

beyond 10:20 31:13

36:10

big 66:19 110:11

112:17 128:19

175:18 190:5

bigger 63:17 163:11

Bill 2:9 5:7 50:4,5

72:13 86:16,18

87:5 104:9 105:14

150:1,4 151:11

152:10 153:6,7,18

153:19 173:5,6

176:17 178:14,15

180:13 182:13

189:6

bin 139:1

binding 145:17,18

birthday 190:7

bit 7:17 11:2 15:10

20:1,2 22:1 23:19

25:13 58:21 92:10

99:12,15,21 108:9

127:1 130:8 132:8

132:16 163:1

190:11 193:16

black 118:3

blah 60:16,16,16

blessing 24:14

blocking 7:19

blocks 27:19

blue 94:6

board 153:15

180:19

bodies 183:20

body 42:10 48:3

bolded 60:17

book 189:17

boring 29:14

bottom 104:10

bound 11:10,18

12:18 13:4 145:5

box 55:12 56:18

90:21 92:21 93:5

95:14,19 117:12

117:20 118:14

119:4,8 138:11

bracketed 104:10

104:15 105:22

brackets 105:15

brains 65:22

break 8:20 11:3

25:6 26:18,22

52:20 53:8,16

58:19 97:9 98:19

99:19 108:21

109:16 129:3,8

142:7 154:14

157:6

breakdown 164:1

Brenda 2:7

brief 4:5 29:16

193:6

briefly 156:16

bring 12:14 50:22

85:19 124:15

157:3 184:14

186:9

bringing 50:19

83:16 180:6

brings 73:16

broad 21:22 136:17

broader 44:19

brought 3:7 10:15

43:11 114:10

163:17 180:11

Brown 2:9 5:7,7

50:5 72:13,18

73:2 86:18,18

104:9,9,20 150:4

150:4,15 151:11

152:10,10,14

153:1,7,19 173:6

173:6 176:17

178:15,15 180:13

182:14 189:6

bucket 11:22 12:2

55:17 57:2 74:7,8

82:3,3

buckets 123:12

budget 186:11

build 117:6 134:5

building 1:7 18:20

185:9 193:16

builds 119:15

built 15:17 68:4

160:3

built-in 161:2,9

162:15,15 166:11

built-ins 166:5

168:4,8

bullet 14:15 60:19

60:22 61:1,2,7,11

61:11,13,16,17,22

62:5,10 67:12

71:15,16 75:16,16

77:15 78:7 79:16

101:1

bullets 60:18 77:8

77:18

bunch 8:7 127:8

159:4

burden 102:14,18

171:20

business 2:9 26:6

191:19
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202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

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Butler 2:5 5:10,10

10:17,19 11:8,8

21:9,9 73:14,14

141:16,16 142:2,2

buy 93:6 115:9

177:12

C

cabinet 10:2 54:20

56:1,10,15,19

58:15 80:4,11

81:4 82:3,16

83:13,17 90:10

94:2,2,11 100:7

101:20,21,22

102:5 104:3 105:4

106:2 113:4 114:1

114:7 115:16

120:15 123:2,9

131:10 138:12

140:1 181:10,19

cabinetry 79:10

cabinets 22:8,16,18

43:2 47:7 48:18

49:1,2 56:8 58:13

74:5 100:1,4,15

134:20 135:7

159:8,13,21 160:2

160:3,15 161:2,7

161:20,22 163:11

166:13 168:9

169:16 170:4

172:1,16 181:12

192:14

cabins 112:17

California 2:14 5:3

47:18 168:16

169:10 173:8,9

call 7:4 13:16 31:7,8

52:10,10 100:13

124:4 184:10,14

184:17 189:3

193:18

called 31:6,7 138:17

calling 30:9 43:13

calls 154:15

cap 131:14

capabilities 133:2

capable 81:7,22

94:3,5,8,12,14

113:11 114:8,15

115:3 116:1,10

118:4,11 152:11

capacities 170:13

capacity 38:20

165:4 176:12

capture 84:10 85:2

88:2 129:12

148:13

captured 87:5

captures 85:9

car 83:22 86:20

89:10

care 8:10

careful 26:10

carefully 13:2

carry 86:21 101:20

115:13 153:17

cars 95:5

carved 123:17

161:19

case 15:2 29:11,15

30:13 48:10 52:10

62:6 94:17 114:13

151:20 184:15

190:22

cases 21:20

catch 106:22 107:10

categories 20:22

38:14,17,18,20

39:2 47:21 64:3

192:15,20

categorize 37:20

categorized 16:4

category 10:14,14

12:5 21:5 22:22

33:4,6 37:4,20

38:9 39:12,13,14

40:4,5 43:10,21

48:2 49:4,12,16

64:1,17 65:16

66:12 67:3 69:9

70:18 71:18 84:19

101:6 106:22

107:14 119:5,9

123:3 124:5,8

128:1,2 162:2

164:5

caucus 53:13

156:16

caucusing 157:17

caught 157:9 186:4

190:4,10

caused 123:12

causes 106:14

caveat 59:15

CC 169:4 173:21

cellar 148:5,10,15

148:19 149:1,6

150:5 153:22

cellars 83:6

Center 2:17

central 134:6

certain 30:4 67:3

70:6 169:21 172:1

174:14 175:13

176:8

certainly 41:2 92:18

104:12 109:8,9

110:6 114:14

118:13 160:17

certified 64:5 71:19

76:18 78:17

133:14 173:7,22

CFR 116:14,15

chair 18:10

chairs 52:14,15,18

chance 104:13

143:8,8 156:18

change 17:4,4 22:14

32:18 44:10

103:12 110:11

124:6 168:19

170:10 174:21

changed 116:15

143:20 144:1

153:11,16 176:5

changes 8:13 11:14

43:15 65:10 89:14

103:7 106:20

123:9 129:12,22

170:21 171:12

changing 66:2

174:17

characteristics 64:6

charged 64:11,12

chargers 29:5

Charles 2:13

Charlie 3:15 4:17

5:2 12:21 14:13

14:14 15:14 16:21

16:22 26:8,9 27:3

39:6,9,10,21

40:10,21 42:21

47:9 48:16 59:19

59:21 63:19,20

64:20 66:8 67:19

70:3 71:16 74:14

74:15 77:21,22

78:10 82:12 89:14

90:17,18 101:4,5

101:11 102:12

112:12,13 114:10

127:16,17 133:8,9

134:3 138:7,15

148:17 151:11

166:14

Charlie's 92:19

93:3

check 97:18,22

121:2 122:8

130:15,19 144:21

145:5 153:21

checks 123:20

chew 104:7

Chicago 157:11

chilling 138:18

chime 53:6 135:18

choice 59:7

chose 29:6,10

Chris 2:14 5:3 76:8

76:9 99:6 152:3

154:7 169:9

184:12,13 189:8

circles 117:16

circuit 29:17,19

95:15

circular 45:21

circulate 143:17

circumvent 64:7

67:10 68:16

civil 137:8 159:5

clarification 82:22

105:1 150:17,20

171:6 181:9

clarified 20:20

clarify 20:17 74:2

78:3 96:6 100:1

105:18 112:4,5

133:7 140:9,15

142:13 152:18

162:1 179:14

clarifying 8:5,10

clarity 27:7 51:19

104:19

class 14:5 22:20

23:14 24:2 58:3

159:15 161:15

162:16 163:3

168:4,7

classes 12:6 23:21

57:22 137:19

158:4,15 159:8,22

160:4 161:5 162:4

162:13 164:6

167:19 168:14,20

179:9 182:4

classified 78:4,5

147:16 150:12

classifying 68:1

clause 103:4

clauses 67:8,21,21

clean 66:21 193:4

clean-ability 64:7

65:4

cleaned 193:6

cleaning 74:3

clear 65:21 69:14

77:15 83:20 84:13

105:10 114:8,18

118:22 119:2

143:5,10,11,16

clearly 78:20 140:8

163:13 174:16

clears 127:19

Cleary 2:10 4:22,22

12:22,22 16:8

24:11,11 40:17,20

41:12,13 50:21,21

59:6,6 60:3,8,13

62:3,11,11,14

70:22,22 75:5,21

75:21 78:9 81:1

81:15,20 91:4

92:12,14 100:21

100:21 103:14

104:22 105:3,8

106:7 107:21,21

108:18,18 109:19

110:6,9 117:13,13

118:2,15 121:11

121:16,19,22

125:17,17 126:5,5

126:10,18 130:11

130:11 134:15

136:16,16 141:20

141:20 143:22,22

145:11,19 147:9,9

148:14,22,22

149:22,22 151:5,5

151:14 161:12,12

162:10,10 165:17

165:17 166:22

167:16,16 171:10

171:10 188:11,15

clock 157:9

close 117:4 156:3

191:19

closer 193:21

closing 155:10

183:17

co-chairs 3:16

coffee 186:10

Cohen 28:18,18

30:22 32:11 33:11

33:17,22 34:4,12

34:17 35:5,16

36:9 37:1 38:16

39:15 40:8,15

41:6 42:1,9,14
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44:6,6,20 45:11

45:14 46:17 48:6

49:1,8,9,9

coherently 33:20

cold 80:15 183:5,13

coldest 82:13,15

colleague 3:7

collective 12:19

colors 96:6

combination 101:14

148:5,14 153:22

combinations

182:11

come 6:18 25:6

26:12 39:6 52:18

58:9 62:18 97:9

118:14 126:20

127:15,20 129:6

130:16 132:18

141:15 144:16

156:1 157:5

158:19

comes 10:18 11:20

89:21 114:11

117:5 179:20

comfort 187:8 189:5

189:15 191:10

comfortable 85:7

111:1 120:3

122:16 155:3,6

190:17 193:17

coming 18:6 41:2

193:10

comment 14:15

21:13 41:13,21

44:17 53:7 58:8

85:22 93:21

104:15 119:13,14

155:12 161:13

162:7 171:11

183:18 184:9

commenters 75:11

commenting 162:10

comments 3:15 4:5

6:19 9:4 27:10,11

44:14 69:16 75:10

80:12 104:10

105:14 128:21

135:13,15 140:20

140:21 143:17,18

143:21 144:1

147:11,21 159:17

159:19,20 171:2,7

183:17 190:19

191:1

commerce 73:18

commercial 15:8

29:5 33:4,6 37:11

38:6 60:2 63:22

65:2,6,18 67:15

68:2,8,17 69:3,11

69:15,21 70:1,7

72:2,8,15,19 73:5

73:8,10,12 78:10

78:18 132:19

136:4,9

Commission 70:9

71:3

Commission's 65:12

commitment 193:13

committee 4:19,20

17:3 42:16 43:14

46:22 47:11 48:7

48:13 53:4 127:12

142:17 175:22

187:13

Committee's 127:14

compact 160:3

161:1,10 162:14

162:15 163:19,20

compacts 166:4,10

company 84:2

compare 122:5

compared 22:2

172:18

compartment 81:11

82:6,9 94:5,15

138:18,20 148:10

148:10 150:6,7

152:15 169:21

170:11 173:20

177:20 178:1,5,6

179:18 183:7

191:9

compartments 9:6

60:15 148:6,7,15

148:16,19 149:2

151:1,4 153:5,22

154:1

compelled 191:2

compiled 167:13

192:14

complete 113:13

completely 113:13

134:19 137:4

142:3

complexities 140:3

complexity 106:14

139:11

complies 179:21

complimentary

17:11 42:22 43:12

component 128:22

131:4

components 100:2

132:2

compressed 154:21

compression 17:22

22:18,21 36:4

54:10,16 57:4

123:4 175:2

compressor 8:1

9:17 10:1 11:21

22:10,12 23:3

25:15,17,20 26:11

27:16 30:18 32:9

34:9 36:19,21

38:10 54:3,5,5,14

54:18,20 55:6,8

55:14 56:7,14,18

57:3,18 79:9,12

103:12 104:2,12

106:11,21 107:14

107:15 108:19

109:7 124:7

125:10,11,12

160:21 162:17

175:12 192:6,7

compressor-based

36:3 40:3,4 43:18

48:19 49:5

compressors 9:13

29:12 37:17,17

38:11 55:19 56:14

104:6

computer 156:12

157:10,10 172:10

concept 148:8,9

154:3

conception 43:6

conceptually 170:17

concern 42:20

43:19 44:4 62:10

63:19 90:5 92:19

93:3 106:10

109:14 114:7

118:8 147:12

concerned 41:4

43:11 117:20

147:14 171:22

Conciliation 2:4

conclude 194:2

conclusion 154:21

condensed 109:15

condenser 9:17 10:1

25:15,18 56:14

104:2

condensers 9:13

37:17,18 38:11

condensing 9:11

37:14,21 38:7

39:3

condition 67:5

171:11

conducted 176:7

Conferring 49:8

80:10

configurations

102:7 118:21

conflict 26:16 78:18

188:22

conflicts 189:2

confuse 143:15

150:3

confused 43:8 94:19

104:22 117:17

118:16 119:4,7

confusing 115:14

184:20

confusion 92:11

143:6,12

conglomerate 107:9

congratulations

98:8 157:21

Congress 29:6,10

30:8 31:12 32:17

32:21

Congressionally

31:19

connected 87:9,18

87:21 88:10 89:1

90:13,14,20

114:14 118:10

connection 73:7

connector 73:11

consensus 21:21

32:4,6 35:1 141:6

consequences 142:1

consider 13:2,4

16:14 19:17 22:3

23:18 36:4 54:18

57:2 64:21 65:13

78:13 89:17

109:10 119:16

consideration 34:10

164:19

considered 16:14

22:19 58:14 72:11

124:9 140:12

148:11 159:14

162:7 168:15

178:9 181:18

considering 13:5

123:9

considers 123:3

consistency 3:7

152:8

consistent 54:14

55:9 103:20 113:3

113:4 128:6 136:6

consolidate 156:18

constantly 6:7

139:1,5

construction 64:6

consultants 40:2

151:18

consume 178:20

consumer 13:9

55:18 58:2 67:17

68:7 69:5,6,8,12

69:15,19 70:8

71:2,3,6 72:11,16

72:20,22 73:2,15

84:19,20 88:10

93:15 94:20,21

136:10 137:10

162:4 171:14

174:12 175:5,14

consumers 160:19

consumption 64:8

65:7 162:5,21

contact 169:10

contains 65:3

context 21:21 64:14

136:19 171:5

continually 139:1

continue 110:19

continued 193:13

contradicts 180:16

control 19:8 43:22

controlling 44:1

convenient 53:17

conversation 6:13

7:6,16 24:9 31:14

126:6 129:14

192:19

converter 91:1

convinced 62:19

cool 135:9

cooled 22:8,16,18

43:2 47:7 48:18

49:1,2 56:7,10

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May 5, 2015

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May 5, 2015

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listed 29:3 31:3,4

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May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

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55:22 58:10 65:8

65:14 72:7 73:9

124:8 127:21

164:4,14 173:4

marketed 65:1

69:11,22 72:2

83:5 160:18

marketing 72:6,9

marketplace 161:8

Mary 2:12 4:13

66:1,3 136:3

152:4

material 160:9

matter 68:15 76:6

matters 31:13,14

123:16

Mauer 2:15 5:5,5

21:2,16 35:19

44:16 45:8,12

55:20 58:7 91:11

109:8 115:4 124:2

125:7,12 150:19

156:15 171:17

177:17 192:5

maximum 3:6 36:16

179:22

mean 9:4,22 10:15

11:2 16:8 40:21

47:13 49:22 50:5

55:11 67:15,16

72:5 76:1 78:10

84:13 85:5,11

87:5,8,19 88:20

89:7 92:10 93:4

93:13,15 94:1

95:3 106:10,15,16

110:12 113:16

115:8,11 120:11

124:3,22,22

126:20 127:18

136:17 137:19

139:14 140:2,12

142:8 151:9,10

153:8 155:20

166:4,8 168:2

169:22 174:14,15

176:17 180:13

185:3,6 187:12

meaning 90:14

189:2

means 83:17 91:20

93:6 94:2 138:2,5

184:16,17,17

meant 57:7

meat 159:1 160:9

mechanical 60:20

mechanically

123:16

Mediation 2:3 5:14

meet 12:9,10 14:10

15:2 50:9 52:12

52:13 57:16 69:12

69:20 105:21

107:4 125:9

127:12 173:11

meeting 1:1,3 2:1

3:9 4:2 30:21

51:12 72:9 104:13

108:14 124:16

128:9 142:13,15

154:16,17 156:2

185:5 187:13

190:6,8

meetings 3:11 6:9

15:7 140:6 158:20

182:6 188:12

meets 30:1,4 46:15

56:21 69:7 106:16

melt-off 139:6

melts 139:1

member 4:18 5:1

53:5,5

members 4:19 51:7

108:5,8,8,10

124:20 125:21

165:19 166:1

167:10,11

membership 124:20

mentioned 5:15 6:3

13:17 54:2 58:11

83:4 161:13

164:17

mentions 181:13

mere 177:15

merge 33:20

merged 30:20

mess 66:22

mic 39:6 53:6 80:13

83:1 105:7

Michigan 187:14

microphones 31:7

middle 145:3

Mike 5:21

mind 27:5 62:9,11

137:8 155:22

minds 97:7

minimum 181:12

minor 76:10,15

minute 39:8 47:22

81:19

minutes 26:21 52:7

52:9 129:5,6

156:16 157:5

158:2

miscellaneous 1:2

10:14 12:1 31:6

140:13

missed 191:7

misspoke 179:15

misunderstood 46:7

mobile 84:22 87:13

89:17,20,22 90:2

91:19 93:1,7

94:22

model 133:14

models 174:10

modification 77:9

90:15 93:2 115:17

modifications 77:7
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192:10

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120:14 133:12

mom's 190:7

moment 32:19

74:22 79:19 85:21

100:17 107:8

126:19 129:4

142:22

money 67:9

monster 62:13

month 124:14 139:4

morning 3:1,20

11:13 105:16

108:4 109:4

113:18,20 126:6

142:7 171:8

175:10

motivator 98:7

motors 33:9

mousetrap 119:15

Mouw 4:10,10 22:5

23:4 63:9 83:15

84:11 85:1,8,15

87:4 88:4,6,18

89:8,11,18 90:11

91:14 92:18 96:5

96:10 110:18

111:5,22 112:20

113:8 114:5

115:19 117:3,22

118:8,20 119:20

120:16 137:18

143:3 146:6,11,13

146:18,22

move 6:22 7:5 25:8

68:6 75:13,18

76:2 110:13

126:14 139:17

189:18

moved 161:20,22

moves 22:12

moving 22:20 32:3

68:17 74:9 75:20

123:16

MREF 57:12 74:5,9

75:7 132:16

multi-levels 74:17

multiple 23:8,14

146:1

muted 99:3

mutually 146:9

N

NAECA 28:1,6

name 11:17 103:12

131:6

names 50:15 51:14

187:19

Nate 22:4,6 23:4

63:9 83:15 84:11

85:1,8 88:18

89:18 90:11 91:11

91:14 92:18

110:18 111:21,22

112:20 113:8

114:5 115:19

117:2,3 118:1

119:20 137:18

146:6 150:1

Nathan 4:10 83:14

86:16 87:3 88:1

National 5:20

natural 112:15

naturally 164:4

Navigant 2:21,22

5:11,18 7:12,21

9:15 15:6 22:16

23:16 25:21 81:9

82:6,14 102:2

122:20 124:10

126:21 132:15

152:18 155:17

158:9 159:6

164:17 165:4,18

165:21 166:17

167:13,13 181:21

181:22 190:2

191:14

NCR's 180:19

NDA 164:18 165:5

necessarily 28:10

30:19 65:11 74:9

168:5 169:22

necessary 8:14

101:12 112:11

120:4

need 8:19 20:11,19

24:14 25:5 26:20

30:17 50:14 57:11

59:5 60:9 62:2,7

64:19,21 67:11

71:10 75:17,21

80:20 83:1,13

84:6 85:15 88:7

99:12,14 103:11

108:1 109:1

111:20 115:18

119:10 127:4

130:7 133:11

148:8,19 154:7,11

154:15 155:8,10

155:13 158:17

164:10 166:9

183:19 188:3

189:19

needed 73:7 120:9

needs 59:16 84:12

120:10 144:4

148:10

neg 31:22

negating 40:22

negative 58:18

negotiate 59:10

140:16 144:5

negotiated 3:2

167:7

negotiating 37:8

negotiation 32:12

34:20 35:17 38:18

42:10 75:7,22

78:12 144:3,5,7

144:13

negotiations 74:9

neutral 58:1

never 18:11 151:13

178:20 179:9

new 6:2 11:20 29:20

32:7,20 33:3,5

113:19 123:16,17

139:7 141:15

168:20

nice 167:3 194:3

niceties 29:14

niche 26:5

night 6:5 7:12

nod 151:6

nodding 152:5

non-chilled 138:22

non-compressor 8:1

8:8 13:5,8 15:22

16:6 17:18,20

18:8 21:4 22:6,7

22:13 23:1,6,9

24:18 25:14,19

26:14,19 27:15

30:18 32:8 34:11

36:1,7,17,20 47:6

47:15,17 49:15,19

54:4,12 63:12,15

80:5,9 81:3,9

98:12 100:12

101:18,19 102:4,5

102:6,8 103:1

104:5 107:16

108:17 109:6

122:3 123:6,21

124:5 126:16

127:11 129:11,15

129:22 130:2,22

134:20 135:8

159:11 161:14,19

161:21 162:16

170:4 172:15

177:18 179:16

180:4,19 183:3

192:1

non-compressors

47:1

non-condensing

39:4

non-integral 25:17

25:20 54:2,4 56:7

79:12 107:14,15

108:19 109:6

110:20 111:2,11

124:6 128:22

192:6,7

non-integrated 54:5

54:13,17 55:7

non-italics 101:3

nonsensical 32:16

NOPR 8:4 102:3

132:12,16 141:14

144:9 153:8 170:3

172:6,12

normally 54:21

Norman 193:19

note 15:16 22:5

78:2,22 130:3,9

192:17 193:9

noticed 129:18

notwithstanding

165:15

NRA 187:12,13

NRA's 187:16

NSF 65:1 132:19

133:10 187:13,17

NSF/ANSI 133:15

number 8:9 9:9

24:22 59:11,16,18

60:5 62:20,21

63:1,2,3,10,18,19

64:22 66:10 69:10

71:15,16,21 75:2

77:9,10 78:2,10

102:15 148:18,19

173:13 176:18

numbers 36:11 40:1

165:8

O

o'clock 52:9,19

99:12 142:9

155:16 157:14,15

185:21,21,22

186:5

object 61:18 110:12

110:17

observations 140:19

observed 81:5 181:2

obvious 114:20

173:13

obviously 12:12

29:2 39:18 69:18

71:1 74:12 100:19

130:4 155:20

176:19 177:4

odds 20:1,3 22:11

offer 8:18

office 28:19 158:22

official 142:10

oh 5:16 38:9 76:16

96:12

okay 4:2 10:6 19:20

20:6 21:16 23:4

35:18 40:20 44:15

46:17 49:14 51:18

52:21 53:7 56:22

59:14 61:2,4,8,10

61:12,19,21 62:19

62:21 63:1,3,19

70:5 71:9 75:1,15

76:20 77:8,9,13

79:14,18 80:1,8

80:11,22 82:8

83:12 85:22 86:8

86:14,18 96:10,13

96:20 98:20 99:2

99:2 100:6,8,10

101:3 102:22

104:20 105:8

106:8 118:15

120:22 121:3,3,9

122:8 123:19,20

124:1 126:13,14

127:16 128:5

129:9 130:1,21,22

131:4,22 132:3,7

142:18 146:20

147:4 149:12

152:4,6 153:1

154:2 157:20

166:14 168:8,10

184:5,6,7 185:14

187:3,21 189:9

192:22

old 139:4,6
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30:16 46:12 48:10

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one-time 64:15

ones 82:13 93:11

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ongoing 51:15 75:9

online 61:5,6 187:9

open 9:7 28:16 39:5

50:11 53:9 69:18

115:11 129:2

167:20 183:17

opening 3:14

openings 172:14

177:15

operate 92:6,9

117:11 154:20

167:15

operating 94:3,12

113:10,11 114:9

114:15 115:10

118:4,11 156:14

operation 172:14

opinion 43:2 67:18

119:11 127:22

opinions 74:12

opportunities 90:6

opportunity 25:18

26:7 53:19 108:7

185:7

opposed 39:16

opposing 168:3

option 21:6 54:6,19

57:4 178:4

options 21:4 22:10

22:21 23:7,13

176:9

order 20:11 75:18

83:14

original 75:4 77:10

106:5 122:5

originally 105:5,10

Orman 2:17 4:8,8

184:16

other-type 31:2

outcome 34:20 35:7

48:7 58:10

outdoor 67:15,16,22

68:6,7 70:17

outlet 90:1

outlets 95:16

outlook 129:2

outside 30:7 66:19

66:22 67:2 82:4

overall 110:20

overnight 13:19

P

package 90:7

page 152:3

pages 80:7

Panel 61:3 62:22

63:4 79:17,22

97:4 142:21 152:1

paragraph 29:21

33:8

parallel 14:16 17:5

17:9,10,14 34:14

parameters 41:9

parent 4:20 42:15

park 58:18

parking 142:10

Parsons 53:2 61:6,9

61:20 99:1

part 10:2 11:16

40:13 46:1,4,9,12

46:13 47:14 56:15

57:7 62:1 65:13

77:17 79:2 96:7

98:8 103:9 104:3

104:15 105:4

106:2 110:21

111:20 112:11

121:3,9 126:1

131:10,14 132:20

134:21 155:18

161:15

partial 191:22

participate 50:14

185:8

participating 187:9

participation 4:1

particular 14:17

28:20 30:1 67:7

particularly 132:19

parties 23:12

partly 118:3

pass 7:8

paste 131:13,13

pasted 99:20

patching 12:8

path 42:22 43:12

144:14

pause 8:17 69:17

70:5

pay 12:19 64:4 66:5

penciled 159:9

pending 78:22

people 8:20 27:9

43:22 51:3 52:10

52:10 58:19 72:7

74:1,11 99:5

114:2 140:22

154:8 155:13

185:7

percentage 122:1

147:17,19 149:20

153:4 191:9

perception 43:4

perfectly 29:13

perform 177:7

181:14

performance 38:20

43:5 54:7 193:19

performing 193:19

193:21

period 56:8

perishable 43:6

permanently 87:9

87:18,21 88:10

89:1 90:13,13,20

114:14 118:10

person 3:22 127:10

personal 73:18

personally 110:12

perspective 73:13

108:5 119:6

141:13

perspectives 143:5

phase 94:4 113:11

113:11 114:9

116:17,22 118:4

phone 39:7 51:13

98:22 154:15

155:13 185:8

phrase 90:13 112:7

112:7,10 113:21

113:22,22

physical 55:12

pick 99:16

picking 7:3

piece 12:8 24:9

26:19 68:2 97:8

121:2,4

pieces 15:22 65:3

96:8,17 138:19

place 14:6,12 76:22

89:5 172:17

181:16

placement 28:3

places 24:12

plane 189:14

Play 95:9

players 51:5

please 3:17 50:14

191:1

pleased 3:21

plenty 110:8 166:21

plug 84:14 90:9,22

90:22 93:16,17

115:9,10

plug-in 84:10

plugged 83:22 90:1

91:15,21 92:2

plugs 84:1,14

plus 89:9

point 7:14 15:12

16:1 25:8,12

35:17,17 37:8

40:22 45:2 55:11

55:13 93:4,13

99:22 102:19

110:10 122:21

123:6 136:4 155:8

155:18 158:3

159:12 168:14

174:2 175:3 176:4

178:9 181:8,10

185:2,19 187:8

188:16 193:15

points 14:15 148:18

193:4

pop 152:20

portable 86:20

87:14 137:22

portion 17:5 49:7

60:9,11 120:6

posed 27:7

position 10:20

19:12,16 41:19,22

142:13 143:9,20

144:1 145:1

positive 174:2

possibility 58:16

65:10 80:15

possible 10:12

15:20 17:19 24:20

47:3 102:9 107:5

125:8 138:16

148:7 150:9 185:6

possibly 125:4

159:21 179:13

post 10:14 158:9

postpone 122:6

potential 21:4 26:6

178:3 179:21

potentially 54:8

192:21

power 7:14 65:7

84:1,2,3 86:22

87:9,10,21,22

88:10,12,21,21

89:2,3,21 90:9,16

90:21 91:20 95:3

95:5,7 99:22

117:6 118:10,13

119:3 155:18

powered 84:16

91:13,14

powerful 98:6

pre-emption 31:15

31:16

pre-rinse 29:5

preclude 65:11

preempted 47:22

preemption 44:17

44:21 45:1,4,7,12

45:20 46:2,4,14

47:20 48:9

preliminary 22:9,19

82:9 159:14,16

162:6,8 163:1

168:14 176:6

prepared 156:1

188:12

present 158:16

175:21 184:16

presented 44:2

116:10 170:3

presenting 123:17

pressure 190:3

pretty 11:10 14:17

20:18,22 26:4

50:17 58:5 95:20

97:20 132:21

165:3 172:11

173:13 175:11

176:2 181:6

prevent 16:5

previous 15:7 24:21

25:1 180:9 182:2

primarily 106:21

principal 168:5

prior 89:12 112:6,8

119:19 155:2

private 23:21

probably 12:13

15:12 26:14 51:18

52:15 70:14 77:14

78:20 86:12 93:6

93:8 114:3 116:9

119:11 120:6

131:16 135:12

154:17 155:1

157:9 158:4

163:22 164:15

169:10,11 187:11

188:17

problem 10:17

15:17 17:1 45:21

46:19 53:18 74:16
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problems 17:16

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procedure 8:3 102:3

132:12,16 136:18

137:5 139:16

140:10 143:12,15

152:18 154:9

155:17 159:2

169:15 172:6,12

178:16 183:1,1

procedures 16:2

44:3 156:4 158:17

proceeding 18:9

process 22:2 45:17

51:9 75:9,22 97:8

98:10 109:13

126:1 161:4 190:1

product 10:21 12:6

12:9 14:5 15:2

22:20,22 23:14

24:2,7 26:5,11

28:9 29:10 30:1,9

30:10,11,12,17,21

31:1,2,16 32:7

33:4,5 34:13

38:17,18,19 39:2

40:4,6,9 41:1

43:18 44:22 45:1

45:16,19,20 46:1

46:16,20 47:12

48:1,8,21 55:22

56:17,21 57:22

58:3 64:8,13,22

68:7 69:5,6,8,13

70:8 71:3 72:1,2

72:11,15,15,17,19

72:21 73:1,3,9,15

79:10 84:3 86:20

87:8,11,12 88:20

88:22 89:2,21

90:14,19 92:22

95:14,22 101:14

102:15 106:21

114:8,11,13,15

115:6 117:5,10,11

117:12 118:9,13

124:12,18 125:6

125:19,22 127:2

128:2 133:3

134:19 136:21

137:15,19 138:4

139:2,3,6,7,21,22

148:2,4 158:4,15

159:8,15,22 160:4

161:5,15 162:2,3

162:12,16 163:3

167:19 168:4,7,13

168:17,20 169:7

170:9 177:11,12

178:19,20 179:3,6

179:12 180:1,5,14

182:3,15,18 183:6

183:7

product's 43:5

product-to-product

172:22

products 8:1,8,11

9:11,16,18 13:5,8

14:11 15:8 16:14

16:17 21:7,19

25:16 26:2 27:22

28:8,9,13,15,22

28:22 29:3,4,8,20

30:6 31:9,12,20

32:14,20 33:21

34:1 35:22 36:2,3

40:3 41:17 45:3

45:10 49:21 50:1

50:6,8,12 54:8

57:16 58:1 67:17

69:10 70:8 71:2,7

76:2,4 78:4 83:4

83:10,20 84:13,19

84:20 87:17,20

88:8,10 89:4

91:13,15,18,21

92:20 93:15 94:20

94:21 98:10

102:10 104:10

105:17,19 106:11

108:19 110:2

114:4,17 116:19

117:8,19 123:1

124:7,13 126:21

127:20 128:3

133:4 135:6,20

136:10 137:10

140:11,14 144:10

147:15,18 148:1

149:21 152:8

161:9,14 162:22

164:4 166:7 168:6

169:22 170:12,20

171:21,21 173:2,3

173:7,22 174:15

174:20 175:1,2,7

175:11 176:7

177:9 180:7,10,12

181:2,14 183:12

program 34:6

156:22

progress 70:2 73:22

74:4,13 193:13

project 2:15 5:6

44:21 47:14

propane 112:15,18

112:22

proposal 24:6 87:16

107:22 108:21

109:3 146:22

147:11,22 149:3

151:16,18 152:19

157:1 161:16

167:3 170:3 172:1

177:21 179:16

180:7,9

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41:20 69:16 78:15

180:6

proposed 8:2 105:6

106:5 132:15,21

137:20 139:15

145:9 147:13,21

149:1,16 157:22

170:19 181:10

183:2

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111:3,6 161:17

179:10 186:22

provide 6:12 75:11

125:18 164:8

165:18,20,21

175:13 177:13

191:22 192:9,12

provided 6:15 38:21

117:9

provides 12:4 48:14

116:16

provision 27:20

29:7 31:15 32:18

33:3 94:19

provisions 33:11,13

133:20 152:20

public 1:1 3:19 15:7

43:1,4,7 51:12

119:13 143:17,17

143:20 144:1

155:12,12 183:18

190:18 191:1

publicly 164:20

pull 7:15 81:12 95:8

132:13 184:5

pulled 132:12

pulling 74:4 122:17

157:8

pulls 8:2

pumps 31:22 32:2

32:12,21 33:4,9

purely 48:6 147:16

purpose 30:3 33:7

41:7

purposes 30:15

170:1

purposing 8:16

pursued 135:1,2

push 11:1 19:4 37:7

143:7

put 10:14 29:7

32:18 33:3 38:11

38:12 46:22 55:4

56:4 75:1,12

76:12,21,22 80:6

88:16 91:4 92:16

95:18 102:15,18

103:4 104:18

105:18 111:10

122:4 126:15

130:9 134:8,13

149:10 150:9

151:13 172:6

179:4 186:11

puts 147:6

putting 24:8 29:7

94:16 127:1 149:9

Q

quadrupled 172:18

question 12:2 15:21

18:13 21:3 27:6

34:18,18,19 36:13

37:2 38:3,17

39:22 41:7 42:2

43:20 45:15 48:17

53:22 55:2,21

61:1 67:13 70:4

70:16 79:7 81:1

81:20 86:19 87:7

88:19 92:22

103:11 109:11

112:3,9 116:2

121:15 125:18

126:7,14 128:19

145:2,10,12,13,15

145:21 146:14,15

146:17,17,19,21

151:8 160:12

164:7 166:4

168:13 173:12

176:4 182:14

questions 7:6 9:1

43:11 44:14 48:15

55:11 61:11 63:2

68:14 70:19 80:12

105:1 146:2,10

158:18 167:4

quick 18:13 25:4

60:18 67:14 81:13

84:17 97:13 129:3

145:2 151:8

157:22 158:5

172:9 182:14

quickly 130:3

169:15

quite 15:10 32:11

43:1 71:10 80:5

86:10 112:14

141:17 153:3

163:1,8 174:12

R

rabbit 119:21

rain 67:5 73:6

raises 109:11

raising 147:10

Ramirez 2:3 4:4,4

5:15 6:3 8:16 9:1

12:20 14:13 15:21

16:21 20:8,10

22:4 24:10 25:2,9

26:8,17 27:1,4

37:9 39:5 40:19

42:12,17 44:13

46:21 48:11 50:16

51:6,16 52:4,11

52:21 54:21 58:22

59:12 60:11,21

61:4,7,10,15,21

62:8,13,18 63:1,5

63:18 64:10,18

65:17,20 66:4,7

67:11 70:5,21

71:9,14 72:3,12

72:22 74:14 75:1

75:15 76:7,12,16

76:20 77:5,7 78:6

79:4,13,18 80:1,8

80:22 81:19 83:12

84:9 85:13,17,20

86:5,9 87:3 88:1,5

89:12 90:17 91:3

91:10 93:10,19

94:8,16 95:2 96:2

96:7,14,17 97:2,5
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May 5, 2015

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106:4,8 107:20

108:16 109:5,14

110:22 111:7,14

111:19 112:12

113:6,15 114:22

115:15 116:20

117:2 118:6

119:18 120:9,13

120:17,21 121:1

122:2 123:14,19

125:2,16 126:13

127:3,16 128:5,7

128:12,17 129:1,9

129:20 130:9,14

130:21 131:3,7,12

131:16,19,22

132:6 133:8,11

134:8,14 135:14

136:15 138:6

139:8,19 140:7,19

141:10,19 142:5

142:18 145:4,17

146:5 147:4

148:12,17 149:4

149:12,15 150:16

151:7,19,21 152:6

153:2,18,20 154:5

154:13,18 156:6

156:17 157:4,7,14

160:11 161:11

163:4 164:10

165:1,10,16 166:2

166:14,19 167:21

168:10,22 169:12

171:9 172:4 173:5

174:3 177:16

178:14 181:20

182:13 183:15

184:12,19 185:11

185:18 186:8,13

187:15,18,20

188:8,13,16,20

189:4,9,20 190:13

190:18 191:3

192:7,22 193:3,15

194:6

ran 91:1 159:18

range 81:4

ranged 82:10

ranges 65:4

rate 177:3

rates 12:19

rating 177:10

178:19 179:19

180:2 182:17

183:3

rationale 166:9

re-carving 123:11

re-craft 7:13

re-mention 165:13

reach 50:14 144:8

154:20 165:10

178:5 180:5

reacting 89:19

read 8:17 20:16

28:21 29:9 41:8

85:10,17 89:19

91:16 100:17

116:20 132:8

143:18 152:3

158:21

reading 87:1 135:13

142:21 152:1

reads 84:2

ready 24:20 59:17

103:17,18 122:19

real 25:4 58:12

60:18 67:14 81:13

84:17 97:13

106:10 157:22

158:5 172:8

realistic 185:20

realistically 36:22

realize 7:1 148:1

really 6:6 11:6,9

13:1,19 18:11

19:10 26:1,2

35:17 44:10 50:6

50:7 54:13 59:10

64:21 68:1 70:1

74:6 76:5 88:3

99:17 107:5 108:3

126:19 140:4

145:11,15 159:7

161:7 170:16

174:21 185:4

188:11 193:11,21

realm 30:16 36:10

reason 35:11 91:12

92:15 95:17

104:17 138:15

160:14 161:3

180:11

reasoning 132:20

reasons 18:22 23:22

31:13 95:6 138:16

171:13 178:18

recall 22:6,7,9

149:4

recap 77:3

recapture 102:14

receive 171:2

received 75:10

159:17 162:8

recommend 144:17

155:9

recommendation

19:5,17,22 20:2

42:4,13,18 125:5

recommends 41:16

reconvene 160:10

182:12

record 27:3,3 56:3

100:5 151:5

166:16 168:3

174:9 194:3,9

recreational 84:21

94:22

red 60:4,10 94:7

reduce 129:13

redundant 85:7

113:1 120:5

refer 104:4

reference 56:17

referring 32:13,15

refers 32:16

refine 148:8

refining 190:1

reflect 36:18

reflects 7:16 107:5

refocus 7:6 53:11

refreshing 139:5

refrigerated 9:6

47:2 135:19 136:1

refrigerating 148:4

refrigeration 1:2

11:17 12:2 15:1

19:19 23:11 28:12

31:6 33:22 47:2

58:4,12 66:11

69:4 70:7 72:2

82:13 83:18 88:6

94:3,12 116:17,22

136:5 140:13

refrigerator 8:3

10:9,22 12:5,10

16:5,6 18:5,8,16

18:18 21:7 22:8

22:13 23:9 25:15

25:19,20 26:11,13

26:14,15 28:10,12

34:11 36:17 37:20

38:8,9 42:6,7

44:18 49:16 54:4

54:5,13,14,16,18

55:15 56:9,19,21

57:17 58:13,15

59:14 60:14 65:13

69:7,13 72:10

74:3,7 79:12 80:5

81:11 82:3 91:5

101:1,13 102:5,6

102:9 103:12

106:17 107:1,4,14

108:17 112:19

116:14 123:21

125:6,9 127:19

129:15 130:6,22

135:17 136:1

137:7 138:14

140:1 148:6,15

150:8,13,21

153:16 154:1

161:6 166:7

179:16

refrigerators 8:12

10:13 12:6 13:8

13:15,22 14:3,7

16:3,7,15 17:19

17:20 18:1 21:5

23:1,6 24:18,19

25:14,16,18 27:16

27:16,22 28:2,5

28:10,11 29:11

30:19 32:8,9 34:1

36:7,20 38:2 43:3

47:6,17 49:19

54:3,10 55:7,8

63:12,16 64:1

65:6 70:17 71:2,6

81:3,10,14 83:5

84:10 100:13

104:5 107:16,17

112:21 123:6

124:5,7 134:21

135:8,18 159:12

160:15,18 161:3,6

161:21 166:7,13

177:18 180:4,20

182:20 183:3

192:6,8

reg 31:22

regarding 86:19

103:5 159:8

regardless 14:8

171:22 179:3,18

181:17

regards 74:3

register 66:12,13

regroup 51:22

regular 14:2 137:7

regulate 127:20

regulated 13:21

16:17 64:3,14

166:7

regulates 48:4

regulation 14:21

33:21 67:10

148:20

regulations 13:12

17:1 40:14 51:15

168:16 173:10

regulatory 70:13

72:10 102:13

166:6

Reich 2:21 5:18,18

related 105:16

relates 101:2 160:7

163:18

relative 151:4

relatively 127:9

172:19

relevant 22:13

141:21 166:12

relooked 56:12

remainder 158:3

remaining 110:4

remarks 155:10

remember 42:14

159:5

remind 128:14

remote 9:11 55:19

106:10,21

remotely 54:19

remotes 37:16,16,17

38:11 55:17

removed 178:17

repackage 160:8

182:4 192:17,18

repackaging 158:12

repeat 88:1 94:9,18

148:12

repeated 114:3

repeating 33:21

replace 75:2 112:7

113:21

report 4:20

representative

150:13 171:19

representativeness

171:14

represents 169:7

request 46:22

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requests 165:6

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require 92:5 121:6

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requirement 149:10

requirements 57:17

68:4

requires 34:8 91:8

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requiring 83:18

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residential 38:2

55:18 65:15 66:11

67:2,17 70:7 71:1

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resolution 142:17

resolve 130:7

158:20

resolved 157:18,19

resources 110:17

respects 160:17

respond 27:12

response 159:16

162:8

rest 57:14 108:7

111:3,8 121:13

144:9

restate 143:9

result 32:22 45:20

170:16 178:19

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results 4:20 68:16

170:5 175:5

177:22 179:17

rethink 69:17 113:9

return 98:13 154:16

177:13

reverting 119:18

review 18:4 156:19

reviewing 79:22

reviews 18:10

revised 6:18 78:21

79:4 87:16

revising 177:8

revisit 77:14 79:15

158:4 188:3,5,19

190:13

revisited 77:17

Richard 2:19

rid 94:6

right 5:15 6:3,11,16

6:22 7:7 10:3,20

13:7 17:3,11 24:8

24:21 26:19 27:1

27:4 29:18 33:2

34:7,19 36:14

39:8 43:17 44:10

45:2,11 46:17,18

47:7,8 49:14,20

49:21 50:2,19

51:3,19,21 52:5

54:17,22 55:21

57:5,8 59:19 60:2

60:3,22 63:6

64:18 66:1,20

72:4 75:16 76:12

77:2,10 81:14,15

85:17 86:15 87:6

92:7,9 93:8 97:2,9

98:4,7,13 99:3,10

100:19 101:22

102:17 105:8,16

109:5 111:7,10,19

114:21 115:1

119:4,6,7,9,14

120:11,12 121:9

122:2 125:11

126:8,13 127:3

128:1,12 129:5

130:15 131:22

132:6 134:1

135:20 137:22

139:16 140:16

144:20 146:5,10

147:6 151:9,12,21

153:2,4,9,20

154:10,22 156:3

157:3,4,7 158:13

159:7 161:18,20

167:14 169:12

173:20 174:22

175:19,20,21

181:16,20,22

183:15 184:7

185:13,15,19

186:1,14,19 187:2

187:7,16,20 188:8

188:18 189:4,19

190:6,7,15,18,20

191:4 192:8 193:8

road 23:18 24:4

43:9 92:1 176:16

roadblock 139:18

140:10

Roland 2:20 4:11

42:18 80:12,13

82:17 85:22

rolling 6:14 193:22

roof 38:12

room 1:7 3:14 6:11

8:21 24:12 34:22

51:1 52:2,7,13,14

65:22 97:7 108:6

108:8 144:21

170:14 191:6

rouge 151:19

roughly 54:9

round 125:6

route 103:19 164:21

rubric 30:11

rule 26:1 41:21

57:12,14 74:6

119:14 135:17

145:9,15 146:4

rulemaking 3:3

18:6 22:2 35:9,10

42:8 43:14 73:22

75:9 78:13,22

134:22 135:3

136:6 140:18

141:15 144:18

167:7

rulemakings 34:7

34:14 35:8 42:3

136:8

run 40:4 112:15,21

118:13 134:6

156:22

running 91:22

173:14 176:21

177:3

runs 119:3

rural 112:17

RV 86:20 112:21

RV's 112:21

S

safe 67:4

Safety 70:8 71:3

sale 115:7

sample 50:7 82:8

173:13 176:19

180:14

sanitation 14:20

Sarah 2:5 5:10

10:19 11:8 21:9

27:5 73:14 141:16

142:2 144:13

satisfied 100:16

saw 82:10 183:11

183:21

saying 13:3 16:4

21:17 24:3,19

30:10 35:6,6 36:1

36:3 37:13 38:8

45:17,22 46:11

51:1,3 55:17

56:19 60:10 62:2

68:6,11 71:19

78:14 80:14

103:16 115:16

117:17 118:17

121:12 124:11

126:10 133:3

152:22 154:10

162:12,12 175:1

179:12

says 29:1 56:14

71:17 83:17 84:5

84:18 89:20 92:5

93:17 112:1

133:13 138:1

153:9

scenario 48:18

Schaefer 2:18 4:15

4:15 37:10 38:5

95:3,4 96:15,15

138:8,8 139:9,9

139:20,20 141:11

141:11 187:11,17

187:19,22

schedule 3:13 18:10

27:18 28:16 41:19

42:7 154:21 158:1

scope 37:5 42:10

70:11 71:4 78:12

78:13 79:1 134:22

144:4,12

Scott 5:19 122:14

screen 79:22 128:13

129:5,10 157:10

sealed 139:4

searches 40:1

second 60:14,21

61:11,11,13,16

112:1 143:10

146:3,7,8,15

173:8

secondly 140:15

173:12

seconds 20:16

secretary 19:5,17

42:13 48:8

section 27:20 28:2,4

28:21 29:21 32:2

55:4 62:20 69:6,8

69:19 84:20 100:3

106:13 129:18

133:22,22 152:20

security 186:14

see 3:5 7:18 13:20

19:8 21:13 24:2

24:17 26:18 27:7

51:7 52:14 53:11

57:21 58:18 59:13

61:1,12,15,19

62:8,20 63:2,5

71:17,19 72:1,4

72:17 76:16 77:12

77:19,20 78:1

79:16,20 80:4

81:12 85:21 86:12

88:2 92:13 96:4

96:19 97:3,17

98:3,17 100:7,14

104:8 109:17

110:6,16 121:2,8

124:3,11 126:19

127:18 128:13

130:1 132:3

133:13 140:2

142:20 143:1

145:8,9 147:8,18

152:20 154:2

155:2,19 165:1,19

168:5 172:17

174:22 175:18

176:6,15 183:16

184:22 185:1,6,14

186:15,18 187:1

188:21,22 190:14

191:9 193:22

seeing 40:11 86:5

108:22 111:1

186:20

seek 21:13

select 115:12

self-contained

37:14 38:13

101:13

sell 119:3

seller 60:15

selling 115:7

sells 84:3 87:11

send 166:17 172:9

189:6 191:14

193:5

sense 11:4 13:3,14

15:12 24:12,13,15

24:17 27:14 52:6

109:9 123:11

124:17 125:4

141:4,7 167:3

170:17
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May 5, 2015

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sentence 60:13,18

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separate 14:4 18:17

20:22 21:5 40:8

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62:4,15 67:21

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162:3 168:3,7

separated 8:2 16:11

separately 13:6

136:14

separating 8:7

160:1,2 161:14

168:13

separation 15:13

September 190:9

series 26:13

served 174:11

Service 2:4

set 14:1 17:18 18:5

30:1 31:12 39:2

48:9 49:22 100:22

107:4 124:4

158:20 182:6

setting 18:8 24:1

100:18 150:9

164:16 179:17

183:5

settings 183:13

SF 14:19

Shaking 120:16

137:13

share 53:13 82:20

164:16,21 167:1

sheet 79:1,2 193:5

shelf 55:15

shipments 164:14

shop 160:19

short 73:19

shove 12:11

show 23:2 59:13

61:1,12 62:20

63:3 79:16 96:4

96:20 97:3 100:7

121:2,8 130:1,20

132:3 145:9 154:2

165:1 172:7

182:10,10 186:16

187:1 188:21

showing 62:22 63:4

79:17 154:4 170:4

180:14,16

shown 44:3

side-tracked 62:16

sideway 63:6

sideways 63:14

Sigmund 179:8

sign 158:9

significant 41:20

90:15,15

silence 109:19

similar 32:6 133:19

142:6 150:21

160:17 167:8

177:17

simple 66:4,7 93:18

150:22

simpler 13:18,19

simulate 172:13

single 22:20 94:4

113:11,11 114:9

116:17,22 118:4

159:14

single-phase 91:8

92:5 94:12 95:21

sitting 36:13 55:14

situation 150:5,10

162:20 167:8

177:18

six 179:8

size 50:7 161:1,10

162:14,15 163:18

163:20 166:5,10

176:19

sizes 170:9

skewed 170:5

skill 4:21

slept 6:4

slide 20:13,14,15

24:21 25:1 62:6

79:22 106:5 114:6

114:7 119:22

122:5 142:21

152:1 172:8,10

slides 99:22 156:9

159:18

slight 93:2

smaller 139:12

164:7

smart 6:8,10

smiling 93:20,21

smoother 194:5

sold 89:6 92:22

116:1,5 117:11

118:9,21 119:8

137:15 164:4

solely 84:21 87:10

87:13 89:20,22

91:19 93:7 94:21

solid 9:5

solution 34:8 79:11

Solutions 2:9

solving 99:17

somebody 47:22

135:18 157:2

186:2

someday 11:16

somewhat 63:11

160:19,22

sooner 3:5

sorry 20:9 49:22

52:7 61:4,17 76:8

80:13 83:2 86:11

88:12 96:5 114:21

117:22 119:22

126:7 129:19

133:11 143:3

146:6,6 161:21

187:19

sort 17:20 18:12

19:3,8 29:17

31:18 37:7 40:22

41:13 45:21 46:8

63:10,16 90:6

105:11 106:22

107:17 110:3

135:21 141:4

148:3 155:7

163:18 167:8,10

sound 159:3

sounded 8:4

sounds 8:13 37:3

59:9 73:2 74:16

74:19 77:1 86:22

157:21 166:16

167:16

source 83:18 88:6

88:19 94:3,11

112:14 116:16,21

Southern 2:14 5:3

169:9

spark 54:22

speak 26:2 59:12

61:18 89:13 93:12

100:11 152:15

155:14,14 181:22

191:1

speaking 104:4

124:19

special 67:3 68:3

specific 17:2 37:13

55:6 56:17,20

65:18 66:20 83:10

149:7

specifically 106:20

108:16 124:13

131:7

specification 152:19

specify 184:9

spend 14:22 64:15

spent 140:2 157:21

174:7

spite 175:9

split 23:21 162:3

splits 24:2

splitting 159:21

spray 29:5

stage 102:3 193:21

staggered 17:14

stakeholders 21:22

167:1,20

stale 138:17

stamping 26:6

stand-alone 71:20

137:1,3

standard 10:10

14:1,16,20 15:1,3

17:18 21:12 28:1

34:16 35:15 36:6

36:17,18,20 37:6

40:12 42:5,6 54:8

54:17 63:22 64:5

66:10,21 107:13

107:17 132:20

134:7 139:12

151:12 160:3

173:11 182:21

183:5

standards 2:15 5:6

14:18 16:2 18:4,5

18:7,9,11,16 21:7

21:14 23:19 27:17

28:6,16 29:1

33:20 35:2,14,21

39:2 41:17 44:22

45:4,6 48:9 50:1

56:1 63:21 64:9

65:6 69:1,2 78:18

101:7 107:4,10

124:4 125:6 134:9

151:2 163:9 177:9

179:22

standing 52:14

stark 176:2

start 6:20 7:10

23:18 24:1 42:22

43:1 88:12 107:10

111:17 135:5,11

147:11,12 148:9

156:4 157:8

158:12 182:12

185:4 186:6

started 3:20 4:5

6:17 38:1 52:22

98:21 105:15

109:13 128:15

129:9

starting 102:19

117:15 120:7

185:17

starts 43:15

State 6:2

stated 143:6

statement 76:15

87:8 179:8 180:16

Stations 95:9

statistics 40:5

status 65:10 193:19

statute 10:21 11:10

18:3 28:4 29:1

30:3,4,8 31:18

32:10,17 39:16,17

44:7,8 69:4

statute's 44:20

statutory 12:19

175:9

stay 30:20 114:6

128:6 138:19

stays 112:19

Stem 5:21,21

step 23:2 98:9 171:1

182:7

Stephen 2:18 4:15

25:3,10 37:9 95:2

95:4 96:11,14,15

138:6,8 139:8,9

139:19,20 141:10

141:11 152:3

187:8,8,20

steps 68:19

STERN 88:14

stick 76:10,19

138:20

sticking 16:1 115:15

stop 19:9 110:7

155:9

stopping 155:7

storage 65:2 137:21

137:21 138:18,22

store 137:11,17

storing 138:2,5

Storming 193:19

straight 127:9

141:14
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May 5, 2015

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street 124:22

strengthening

119:13

stretch 118:12

strictly 104:4

strike 75:2 94:16

104:18 111:11,15

120:6 122:3

131:13

striked 76:11

striking 113:7

striving 74:19

strong 97:21

strongly 175:16

struck 96:7,8,12,18

118:3 120:11,17

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structure 6:13,15

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stumbling 27:19

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80:2 83:3 93:14

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160:13 163:5

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suggest 26:17 48:8

58:17 66:2 75:5

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113:2,10 114:21

145:13 160:14

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suite 114:17

summarize 151:15

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summarizing 27:6,6

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superfast 190:3

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supplied 83:22

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supply 125:1

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supposed 175:13

176:20 177:7

sure 3:10 7:3,11

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82:22 83:11 99:14

102:21 103:15,17

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107:3 115:16

117:16 118:22

122:14 126:18

128:17 143:4,11

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153:8 156:10,13

156:17 159:4

171:7 174:16

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surface 138:21

SW 1:8

switch 36:4 122:22

123:4

switched 176:8

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sync 18:12 34:7

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syncing 35:13

system 15:17 17:6

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take 8:9,19,20

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77:12 79:19 93:3

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target 177:20 178:1

team 7:13 155:17

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Tech 2:17

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104:14 105:21

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169:21 170:7,12

173:21 176:14

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150:12 152:18

154:9 155:17

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170:5,6,19 171:20

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178:4,19 179:5

180:9 182:19

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testing 67:3 68:2

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text 80:21 89:19

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thermal-electric

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thing 6:14,21 11:12

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Tim's 45:15,18 46:6

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60:14 64:2 98:13

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timeframe 18:15

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today 3:11,21 7:10

25:17 26:5 47:5

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155:21 161:19

164:1 166:21

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today's 182:21

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122:13,20 124:10

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149:5 151:14

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169:12 172:4

true 2:13 4:17 14:14

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truly 6:8

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38:1,15 39:7,8

52:17 77:18 84:9

88:4 99:13,16

107:9 121:6

138:12 139:13

141:12 154:20

156:18 187:22

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54:16 60:1 62:5

62:16 66:21 69:14

74:2,20 82:1

87:20 92:13,16

95:19 99:18

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updated 192:9

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179:16,19 180:1,2

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V

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vehicle 87:14 94:22

vehicles 84:21 91:15

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verbage 77:11

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verbiage 100:20

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verify 67:4 78:3

version 73:19

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view 110:14 134:17

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views 108:9

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volt 84:1

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volume 9:7

volumes 151:4

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vote 24:20,22 61:22

62:5 77:12 79:14

79:17 98:2,3

100:5 103:18

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way 7:2,5 12:3 19:1

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32:9 33:15,19

36:10 37:4,12

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we'll 52:8,17 76:21

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webinar 6:1 53:4

website 169:4

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183:12 191:18

works 86:21 174:19

174:19 175:1

184:22

world 29:9 30:8

31:19 45:2 123:18

158:10 161:19

worry 62:15

worrying 153:3

wouldn't 9:17 14:18

15:2 19:9 24:20

24:21 36:21 43:8

46:4 62:9 66:13

105:21 110:6,12

110:16,17 147:19

162:11 164:19

173:3 177:11

180:7

wrap 99:13

wrapped 155:2

writing 151:12

written 87:2 147:11

wrong 24:13 111:9

139:15 143:19

wrote 192:17

X

X-Boxes 95:9

Y

yeah 20:17,22 32:11

42:14 49:9 50:16

52:11,12 53:13

56:3,16 59:20

61:6,17 62:3 63:5

76:12,14,19 77:5

79:5 81:15 82:8

86:5,19 87:4 88:5

89:11 93:22 101:4

104:20 108:18

110:6 111:21

115:8 118:8,20

121:3,16 128:17

149:12 153:13

160:6,13 162:1,6

163:5,16 166:3,19

168:12 172:5

174:4 176:3 178:8

178:11 180:18

182:14 186:8

187:15,18,22

188:13,15 193:15

year 19:14 31:22

32:3,13 33:9,17

35:11 42:2 173:10

178:21 179:4,6

years 14:2 18:6,7

161:5 166:6 168:3

174:11

yep 63:18 111:6

yesterday 6:19 7:10

7:22 10:7,12

13:17 20:20 42:21

43:12 47:5 53:2

86:3 106:6 156:11

159:18 171:14,18

174:8 183:19

190:5,7,8

York 6:2

Young 5:19,19

111:17

Z

0

1

1 33:8 45:16,17,19

46:1,2,4,9,10,10

46:12,13 60:9

62:20,21 76:13

134:1,9

1.1 173:10

1.7 82:16

1:15 98:16,17,18

10 26:21 129:6

10,000 15:1

100% 173:14

176:21

1000 1:8

11 52:9,18 188:14

189:12

11th 184:22 185:11

185:15,17 187:1,1

188:3,4 189:16,17

194:1

11th-12th 188:2,2

12 84:1 188:14

189:12

12-2012 133:15

12th 184:22 185:12

185:16,20 186:5,7

187:1,2 188:3,4

189:16,17 194:1

14 129:19 131:2

15 52:7

15-16 188:22

189:21

15th 186:19,20

188:7,9,21 189:16

190:14

16th 186:19,20

188:7,10,21

189:16 190:14

17 177:2

18 188:14 189:12

18-19 188:3,4

18th 187:4 189:17

189:21

19 32:16,17 188:14

189:12

19th 187:5 189:18

2

2 8:9 9:9 24:22

30:20 59:11 60:5

60:6,7 63:1,2,3,10

76:13 77:10 134:1

134:9

20 29:21,21 30:1,13

30:15,20,22 32:14

32:20 45:17 46:3

46:20 52:7 55:4

66:5 84:20

2014 116:15

2015 1:12

20585 1:9

20th 183:19,22

250 14:16 66:10,12

66:13,15,19,22

67:22 68:3

27th 184:2,3,6

28th 184:3,4,6

292 28:21

3

3 59:16,16,18 60:1

63:18,19 69:2

71:15,16 76:15

78:2,10 134:1,1

173:13 176:11,18

3-4 14:2

3:26 55:13

30 52:9 66:16 158:2

31st 190:10

322 55:9

322(a) 27:20

322(a)(1) 20:3

325(l) 19:13 20:1

32:1

345 32:2

35 166:6

39 81:17 181:13

4

4 69:2 71:21 75:2

99:12 133:22

142:9 155:16

185:21,22 186:3,5

187:3 189:11

4:00 99:9,10

40 121:21

42.8 82:10

429 129:18 152:20

429.61 153:10,11

471 14:16 66:13,15

66:18 67:1 68:1

4th 190:6,7,9,9

5

5 1:12 3:3 31:22

32:3,13 33:9,17

42:2 185:20 187:3

189:11

55 150:7 176:22

178:6 182:16

550 179:4

6

6 35:11 38:13

163:10,10

6:30 99:8

60 87:6 121:21

61 129:18 162:17

61.1 82:11

6292 45:3 56:13

84:18

6292(a) 94:20

6295 29:3

6295(L) 32:15

6311 33:8

647 173:10

7

7 14:19 15:1 64:5

65:1 179:5

7-2009 63:21

70 182:16

72 86:2,11,15 96:19

97:10,13,22

100:18 121:5

153:9,12 170:6,14

170:19 171:3,6,18

171:21 172:14,19

173:14,15,17

176:7,12,21

177:15 178:10,13
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 5, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 216

180:10,15 182:8

183:12 192:20

75 181:17

8

8 82:8 157:14 187:3

189:11

80's 11:19

800 179:5

8E-089 1:7

8th 186:15,16

9

9 3:3 40:4 106:5

122:5 157:15

185:17 187:3

189:10

9:00 1:11

90 7:22 8:6 60:13

81:6,7,11 82:1,7

86:3,4,10,15 87:6

96:18 97:10,13,18

98:2,3,4 100:18

104:14 105:20

120:20 121:5,9

123:1 152:8,11

153:11 170:6,10

170:15 171:4,11

171:21 172:13,18

173:16 174:8

176:8,14 177:20

178:4 179:2 180:8

181:3,14,17 182:8

182:16 192:20

900 179:6

9th 186:15,16
217 

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