ROUGH EDITED COPY

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD

HEARING

SEPTEMBER 30, 2010

CAPTIONING PROVIDED BY:

DILLON REPORTING SERVICES

100 NORTH LA SALLE STREET, SUITE 1500

CHICAGO, IL 60602

* * * * *

This is being provided in a rough

- draft format. Communication

Access Real time Translation (CART) is provided in order to facility communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.

* * * * *

>> NANCY STARNES: Good morning. We'd like to as k you all to please take your seats. We want to begin these proceedings. It's my honor to welcome you to this meeting, this public hearing on the Americans with Disabilities Act, Accessibility Guidelines for Transportation V ehicles. That greeting is on behalf of myself, Nancy Starnes. And I do s erve as vice

- chair
of the U.S. Access B oard and on behalf of our chair, Polly Trottenberg as well as my colleagues who are here. And I will ask each of them to introduce themselves in just a moment. We want you to know that if you did not register to speak today, we don't want you to take that as meaning we don't want to hear from you. By all means, if you have something to contribute to our deliberations today, we want to encourage you to share that
with us.

W e would ask if you approach the witness table which is in the front center of this room, that you do provide us with your name and any professional association that you would like
included in the record. We would also want you to know that if y ou do need to leave the room to go to the rest rooms, they are outside the mainmeeting room here and to your right down a short hallway.

We would also like to request that you silence your cell phones while we're having these deliberations. Let me ask my colleagues and relevant board staff people to introduce themselves and we'll begin with the individuals to your left, my right. >> EDWARD GEE: Ed Gee, public member. >> HANS VAN WINKLE: Hans Van Winkle, public member.

>> PHILLIP JENKINS: Ph illip Jenkins, public member from Austin,

Texas. >> JOHN BOX: John Box, public member. >> DOUG ANDERSON: Doug Anderson, public member. >> JAMES RAGGIO: I'm Jim Raggio, I'm the counsel general. >> NANCY STARNES: Nancy Starnes.

>> J.R. HARDING: J.R. Harding, public member, Florida. >> RON GARDNER: Ron Gardner, National Federation for the Blind. >> NEIL MELICK: Neil Melick, public member. >> HOWARD ROSENBLUM: Howard Rosenblum, public member, Equip for Equality.

>> JOHN WYVILL: John W yvill, public member. >> GARY TALBOT: Gary B. Talbot, public member. >> KAREN BRAITMAYER: Karen Braitmayer, public member. >> NANCY STARNES: With that, we'll turn the proceedings over to

Dr. Harding.

>> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Nancy, fellow Board members, staff, and my fellow Chicagoans. I was born here back in 1966 and have a long family history dating back to 1805 in this fine city. As our vice chair indicated, Nancy, we are here on the Americans

w ith D isabilities Act, Accessibility Guidelines for Transportation V ehicles. On July 26, 2010, our 20th birthday for the Americans with Disabilities Act, the proposed rule was published. These proposals update the ADA guidelines for

covered buses and vans . The document addresses new types of systems such as bus rapid transit, lowered floors, advances in technologies, and including automated announcements. The proposed guidelines revise specifications for vehicle ramps, circulation routes, wheelchair spaces, and securement systems. The future rule will update, updates for rail vehicles. We plan to hold a second hearing in Washington, DC, November 8th
and the docket will be c losed on this matter November 2 3rd, 2010. Like all public hearings, th ere are some guidelines to this. But since we don't have 300 people but only 13 good citizens who have volunteered, the maximum time frame of 5 to 7
minutes can be extended. All registered speakers can be, to the microphone in front of us to testify . Please notify our staffs if you want to testify in advance, so if you haven’t preregistered, first come , first served. This meeting will go until 12:00. I understand we'll take a little break about halfway through it to give somefolks to courage to s tep up as they wish.

Written remarks or Power Points, please give them to staff. These will be added to the public record and our trusted attorney Jim Raggio has already received one copy of it. And then of course, please refrain as a courtesy to r eacting to other people's comments or staff member’s . This is from the heart, and people want to specify what issues they're facing in
transit and over the road vehicles. So on that note, I'd like to get this meeting begun. So our first speaker is Mr. T.J. Ross. Mr. Ross?

>> Mr. ROSS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman

. I'm TJ Ross, I'm the

execu tive director of Pace suburban b us. My background is all transit. I started in the transit business in 1975 in Phoenix, Arizona. And so that, I would say, had the full experience of the accessibility requirements that have come with transit. Pace is the suburban bus provider. W e provide fixed route service throughout the 3500 square miles of northeastern Illinois that's outside the city of Chicago. We also provide van pool service, the second largest system in the country, over 700 van pools We do car pooling and of course we do dial

- a

- ride. We provide dial

- a

- ride services in the suburban area that are not

ADA required dial

- a

- ride services, but we also have responsibility for providing ADA service throughout the whole region , which in this case is about 2

- 2.5 million tri ps a year with an expenditure of about $120 million a year. What I want to do is testify about the changes in regards to

the ADA guidelines. The revisions to the access guidelines have been in the works for over 20 years, as you know, and we remain ready to be on the forefront of what's required because of our commitment to the safety and comfort of our passengers. This is not a new attitude. Pace began building buses with
Orion in 1990 that had wheelchair lifts in anticipation of the original regulations.

The ADA requirements of 1991 were a starting point from which a lot of learning has transpired. Those early days with wheelchair lifts on conventional buses were truly that, learning days. In the past 20 years, Pace has transitioned f rom lifts to ramps. In 1998, we committed to buying only low floor buses. We had short ramps and now we have some longer ramps. The longer ramps are identifying the possible need for a variable size ramp due to vehicle heights, deployment areas, and

pas senger needs. As you know in the suburbs, many times there are not
sidewalks or not curbs. You have a lot of different situations

there. We learned by that that the minimum is not enough. A
600

- pound capacity in a wheelchair lift or a ramp ha s to be increased due to the passenger loading and maneuvering requirements.We need to remember at a maximum a bus is only 102 inches

wide. And when I started out, the maximum was at 96 inches, which was a very narrow bus compared to what we have n ow. And that limits the space that we have inside the bus for aisles and seating. In addition, when the boarding area is ahead of the front
wheels and on traditional transit buses the front wheels are
behind the driver that really does limit the spa ce between the front wheel areas. So you have a restriction area between the front wheels as you get on the bus. Now, we have developed securements that are easier to use over the years. The securement belt from when we started to now, it’s a compl ete transition, very different. They're simpler, meaning infrequent riders can manage them as easily as regular customers and less assistance is needed from the bus operators to allow for a quicker travel. Everything about bus travel is speed. The quick er people can get on and get off the bus, the less expense we have and the more competitive we are
with an automobile. Just think, every minute delay is about $1. The operating cost for a bus, you can easily say $1, in some cases it might be as high as $1.50.
And also there's identified new items that need to be addressed by the regulations. And these include clarifications in most areas to remove past ambiguities. So what we are saying is, safer, stronger, bigger is the message I want to lea ve with you today. Pace has always worked at offering state of the art technology and equipment whenever possible through the cooperation of the builders and the suppliers in the industry. We're committed to doing this the right way and want to work
with you on a set of guidelines and a feasible and improvement for all involved over what's required today. Now, these are challenges for the manufacturers and the builders of vehicles and components. But we do not recognize any of the revisions that ar e overly onerous or impossible. The challenge to transportation providers will be to assist the manufacturers and suppliers of our industry in making sure they are in compliance with the vehicles and the systems are redesigned for improved accessibility Now, a fact looms that isn't intended to distract from all of our support of this. Wh en we want to improve things, w e believe it takes a minimum of 12 years to make this transition. The life of a transit bus is set by FDA, is 12 years. And I

want

-- we do still have some high floor buses in our fleet, which means that they're well over 12 years old. And we haven't transitioned to all low floor buses yet. Now, that is a long time period. So there's going to take some ideas of grandfathering in existing vehicles. We also know if retrofits are required, they can be very difficult. They can be very expensive. And they can have the distinct possibilityof not working.

My experience with transit vehicles is that when you go in and you modif y original designs, you have some very unintended

consequences. So we want to point that out to everyone and make sure that if we do end up with retrofits that we understand what we are doing and that they are doable and they don't create more proble ms than they solve. I want to point out that our existing safety systems offer an impeccable track record of maintaining safe operation of our passengers so that there should be little concern about the existing fleets in our fleet as the transition occurs. In regards to staff, the maintenance section of Pace will require full

- time devoted compliance officer for this as it applies to the vehicle procurements, bills and watching regulations. There's a cost to doing these changes to the

agency. And we'll have to bear that. We will have to find ways

to bear that. In summary, the sky is the limit as it relates to what's possible as we work together on these new regulations to ensure the safety and accessibility of our service to the passenge rs who rely on Pace. While it's true that one cannot put a price on safety, we're only asking that you remain aware of the potential cost impacts and respectfully request an incremental approach to implementation that is manageable for the providers
like us. I want to thank you for your time and opportunity to testify and I'm happy to address any questions you may have. >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Mr. Ross. Because we do have time, I'm not on, hot. Testing? I'm not on. There we go Because we have time, Mr. Ross, board members, any questions for our testimony today? Hearing none, thank you, sir.

N ext up to bat is Mr. Joel Sheffil. Mr. Joel Sheffil ? >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me to speak. My name
is Joe l Sheffi l. I am a person with a disability who uses a
cane. And I am also the executive director of West Suburban
Access News Association. I'd like to say that when you talk about access, you not only need to talk about being able to get on the bus or train but must also be concerned about what happens after one gets on. Are priority seats available or are they occupied by kids or teens. If you say something to them, you get sworn at and nothing happens. Drivers are more worried about keeping on time than asking a passenger to move so a senior or a person with a disability can use a priority seat. What's the use of having them? Drivers can and will pass up passengers. But if there were a red rotating light which passengers could initiate w hen getting to a bus stop, there would be no reason to pass up because the driver had to see thelight.

On L trains, there is no employee on any car which is responsible for being sure assistance is at the departing station. Security guards do this. Over 50 percent of

L stations are not accessible. To take, for example, a station on the Green line by my home where over six senior homes are, has only an escalator going up. What also does it have? It has a ramp to get there from the
sidewalk. But what does the ramp lead to? Stairs. How does a wheelchair get up there? But if you want to depart at the station, there's no access. Even if you went up and took the escalator going up, if you wanted to depart at that station coming back, the re is nothing going down. This is not access. If we want to get people out of nursing homes and into the community, then transportation access is not something we can do. It is something we have to do to allow
those with disabilities and seniors to be an active part of the community. It was just announced that the Department of Justice fined a local bus company in Texas for violations of the ADA. This law must be obeyed by all transit systems. Drivers need to be allowed to get out of the sea t. And if the bus is supposedly accessible, then all passengers must be considered, including keeping the main aisle open so that those with low vision are able to get on. If you have a main aisle which is loaded with strollers and shopping carts, how is a person with low vision or with no vision supposed to get through? If they can't get through, then is that accessible? When picking up school kids, a bus becomes holy heck. The kids think that they own that bus, and anybody on it needs to be

hate d that they got on that bus. This is not accessible transportation. And we need to consider doing something about this. Thank you for your time. >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, sir. [Are there] a ny comments or questions from members of the board? Gary and then John. I guess just Gary. Mr. Talbot >> GARY TALBOT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gary Talbot, public

member. Joe l , if you could help me with a couple of things. On this Green line station that you're talking about, is that a key
station?

>> It's the Austin Avenue station, sir. That is the

-- Austin Avenue is the dividing line between the City of Chicago and the

suburb of Oak Park >> GARY TALBOT: The reason I ask, what I would recommend is, if it is a key station, then you're right, it should b e accessible. If it's not a key station as your community had negotiated years ago, I would suggest that you work with your local CTA rep and try and get them to make that accessible. >> Well, the reply we get when we have contacted is, money isinvolved and we just can't do anything. But at the same time,

persons like myself who use a cane or anything else really are at risk when going down that station.

>> GARY TALBOT: If I could have a follow

- up, Mr. Chair, you
also made a comment about the drivers and that they must be able to get out of their seat. Could you explain that? I mean, if a person using a wheeled mobility device gets on the vehicle, they have to put the securements on. >> Okay f ine, sir. But what about a person with a disability
who i s not using a wheelchair but you have a mother and two kids using the priority seats. The drivers just look and say

-- just
smile. >> GARY TALBOT: Thank you. >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you. [Are there] a ny other comments or

statements? All right, t he next up to bat is Ms. Debbie Pit t man.
Ms. Debbie Pit t man? Whenever you're ready, ma'am. >> Good morning. My name is Debbie Pit t man. I'm here on behalf
of Concerned C itizens of Paratransit.

The ADA is specifically meant to be, it was meant to be as a guideline for accessibility to be accomplished. But it's at a minimum. One of the things that is very important is that the guidelines need to go further than being just a minimum. In relation to paratransit, vehicles that are used by

carr iers that transport people with disabilities should be better specified to meet the needs of people with disabilities. For example, vans that are meant to carry wheelchairs and, in some cases, two wheelchairs, if it is unsafe for passengers to
sit behind a wheelchair because there's not enough leg room,
those vehicles should not be allowed because in the event of an accident, with the wheelchair facing forward as the guidelines require, that wheelchairs face forward, if there's no

-- if that
wheelchair is not properly secured, which in many cases they are not, if the vehicle jerks for any reason or brakes are slammed on by the driver, that vehicle has the possibility of rolling back on the person that is sitting behind that wheelchair. If this is goin g to be a requirement that the wheelchairs do face forward, which that is the requirement now, these vehicles, there needs to be enough space between a wheelchair and a chair
that is

-- and a seat that is stabilized for people to sit on.
Another issu e is safety should be first and foremost. Vans that require what is like a five

- passenger van should not, if it's having a wheelchair, a requirement should not be that a
service animal should have to be on the floor in the vehicle
with a wheelchair in tha t small van because the van, if any

-- again, if anything happens and that wheelchair is not properly secured, that animal will be hurt. This is something that is very crucial. It should be specified that no service animal should be put in a van, a five

- passenger van where there's a wheelchair. And there should be enough vehicles in thatcarrier's fleet that there should be a vehicle available for a

person with a service animal and not put a person in the position that has a service animal to be forced t o be separated
from their service animal and leave their service animal at

home. This is a repeated issue that does go on in Chicago. And it has been ignored. The other issue is when passengers bring issues to the service provider such as safe ty and seat belts, seat belts that are not properly securing the passengers, those vehicles that have such belts, seat belts, for example, here in Chicago, the new vans that have been brought in to provide paratransit service in the last couple years now, these seat belts do not lock. When the driver sits on the brakes, the rider slides
because the seat belt moves with them. I myself have been in a past accident. And that was the very thing that injured me because the seat belt did not lock. And I was basically just thrown forward and then slammed back. And I sustained injuries. This is something that is crucial.

It n eeds to be addressed. Vehicles that have such seat belts that do not protect the riders should be banned. And this

should be addressed ASAP. Paratransit riders have the same rights as those that ride the fixed route system. Paratransit is a means of providing a way to be independent and live independently. It is up to the guidelines that are established to address all the issues that are involved in freedom of transportation so that accessibility
is available to all citizens. In addition, ve hicles that cannot, that make it difficult for passengers to ride in such as passenger vans which are also utilized should not be utilized when they are not specifically set for people with disabilities. If these vehicles, there are vehicles that are too high for a person with a disability to get into. These vehicles should not be utilized. And companies that utilize these vehicles and insist on sending them to people with disabilities that have a specific need that say they have a ramp requirement, they should be fined because fining, it should be in the regulations that they should be fined so that if it's written in the regulations, there will be more of an opportunity and more of a sincere feeling of the carrier actually trying to meet the need o f the
riders. Also in the regulations, it needs to be established that riders should have a say

- so in what is going on. There needs to be something that is protection for the riders so that issues are not ignored. It is supposed to be transportatio n and accessibility. And that accessibility should count for everyone. Thank you. >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Ms. Pit t man. [Are there] a ny comments or questions?Hearing none, thank you so much, Ms. Pit tma n.

The n ext speaker is Mr. Steve Hasteli s. The chair is right there to your right, Steve. There are two of them. And the microphone is probably at 11:00 range. There's a microphone right there. >> Maybe I should have sat in the chair to the left. I'm sorry.
Good morni ng. I'm Steve Hastelis. And I present this testimony on behalf of the National Federation of the Blind of Illinois, Chicago chapter I retired from the Chicago transit authority four months ago after a career of 35 years in community relations, publi c affairs, customer assistance, and Americans with Disabilities Act, ADA, compliance. If we can't find out route and schedule info, then we can't access the bus. And if we can't pay our fare, then the lack of information denies us access just as the lack of lift or ramp denies physical access to a person using a wheelchair. Information access is equally critical whether we use web resources directly or call transit systems and request
information from a customer service or travel information

re presentative. We also may seek materials in alternative formats such as Braille, large print, and electronic file We strongly concur with recommendations urging clear announcements, exterior ones giving route and destination when
buses and train s arrive at boarding locations as well as

on

- board interior ones announcing all stops. Sighted persons can see obvious informational cues such as bus stops and street signs, route and destination signs on buses as well as directional information sign s at rail systems. Blind or visually impaired customers must access such information nonvisually using alternative techniques of blindness. Thus, we may seek such information from the transit system. For example, customers may ask about routes, sch edules,
and fares. We also might ask about specific bus stop locations to this effect. Is the bus stop near side, before the intersection, far side, after the intersection; mid

- block, or a block or two away? Naming an intersection as a locatio n does not give complete information. Rather, it obviously leads to more questions. For example, what street is the bus traveling on? Does it turn there? If so, from what street to what street does it go? What direction does the bus travel as it passe s through such an
intersection? For example, outside this hotel we have an intersection of Ontario Street which goes one

- way westbound and Michigan Avenue
which has two

- way traffic. Most of the bus service through here goes north and south on Michig an, but we do have one route that turns west to south at Michigan and Ontario. And we have another route that turns south to west from southbound Michiganto westbound Ontario.

So these directions are critical for a blind person both when you call transit information, when you look online, or when you ask a bus driver . And we may ask similar questions at rail systems regarding bus connections, station entrances, track and pl atform locations and fare collection, but apparently that's for another day since we're talking about buses and vans this morning. I have other comments about fare equipment. I should deal with these now because bus rapid transit is kind of a new fo rm of service. Bus rapid transit can range from enhancements on a regular street where, let's say, buses get priority at traffic signals to lanes designated for buses only. And the most advanced form of bus rapid transit involves off

- board, that is,

befo re you get on the bus, off

- board fare collection. If you have a bus rapid transit like that where you pay your fare before you get on the vehicle, then the logistics of paying the fare are essentially the same whether the thing that you
ride is a bus on a designated lane with rubber tires on pavement or a railroad, light rail or commuter train.
Some machines have

-- let's see. Some machines have speech, but the directions they give do not work for blind people. For example, on the Chicago sout h shore and south Bend Railroad, I asked the ticket agent at millennium station a few blocks south of here about purchasing a ticket with a credit card. She directed me to machines outside on the platform. I went and found the following. The machine gav e audio prompts with braille and raised print sequential directions as to the purchase of tickets. Neither the audio nor the braille directions explained what keys to press for particular choices, either A, B, C, D keys for fare type or the number keypad for
the station code. A sighted man tried to help me but left me alone when I tried to do this transaction independently. The critical prompts for directions occurred only visually. I therefore returned to the ticket agent and purchased a round

- tri p ticke t with cash. Virginia Railway E xpress, VRE, operates a commuter rail system south from Washington, D.C. It has ticket vending
machines with audio which lists all the station names with corresponding numbers in quick succession. The blind person

m ust remember all this information and make the desired selection only after the machine finishes reading this list. And my recollection is that it had at least 24 stations; from

D.C. to Fredericksburg is what, 50

- some mile , maybe 60 miles. It's a long co mmuter rail line. That kind of thing can work for a blind person but it needs to be more interactive Again, bus rapid transit is like a rail system in that it operates on a designated right

- of

- way. Some machines have speech output giving blind custo mers the same information that sighted persons have. Such machines are now available and inuse on big city rail systems such as Chicago Transit Authority,

CTA, New York City Transit authority, NYCTA, Washington Metro, and on light rail systems such as th e one in Minneapolis. I will reserve my other comments for later. And I know we talked about rail at a later hearing. But these issues are so integrally related that I touched on some rail issues this morning because of the nature of bus rapid transit w hich can resemble a rail system in its operation and fare collection. Thank you. >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Steve. [Are there] a ny comments
from the board? Mr. Talbot >> GARY TALBOT: Thank you, Mr. Chair, Gary Talbot, public

member If I could just ask a question, Steve, as far as the communication, and I'm thinking more like at a bus stop, do you know, do you guys have any kind of like raised character braille for bus route and destination? Would that be helpful if you

don't do it, or have you done that at all? I'm just trying to think, what would make that a better situation for folks who are
blind? >> We haven't done it in Chicago. Other systems, although I can't tell you the particulars, such as Austin, Texas, have done

some work in that regard. And so maybe, I heard somebody say Austin earlier. So maybe that person might be able to give you
some more detail. The problem with the bus stop location is that unless you have a bus shelter, which is a very obvious structur e, you don't really know where it is. In this city, for example, we have

near

- side stops. We have far

- side stops. And you really need to investigate before you go riding the bus where is the physical bus stop. Otherwise, you could put braille on a sign
, but how are you going to know where to look for it if you're walking down the street >> J.R. HARDING: Well put, Steve. Thank you. Any more questions. Mr. Talbot? >> GARY TALBOT: Yes, if I could just follow up. I'm just trying to think about what our draft rule has, what it doesn't have and how that would help this situation. So I understand what you're saying. But that's more of, I would think, almost a customer service activity or something like that, if braille and raised character isn't goin g to help on a sign or on a shelter. Like your comments about the scheduling, bus schedules, that types of thing, there's all kinds of new technology coming out now where we're doing electronic veritable message boards in shelters, that kind of thing, whe re you will get not only schedule information but next bus arrival, that type of thing. So I'm just trying to figure in my own mind if that's the type of technology you're talking about, or is this more something that the provider like a CTA would provide

. > > I think it would be some combination>> GARY TALBOT: Okay. Thank you.

>> J.R. HARDING: Hang on, Steve. We have one more question,

Mr. Ron gardener from Utah >> RON GARDNER: Steve, I'm wondering about

-- and thank you for your testimony, Steve . I'm wondering about inside announcements and whether they're loud enough, whether you find that really helpful, whether the volume of the announcements changes with the intensity of the noise inside or outside the bus. For example, if you're waiti ng on the sidewalk and there are sirens and lots of noise and traffic, buses coming and going, are you able to hear the outside announcement? And likewise, inside the bus, in an empty bus, it's a lot different than in a very full bus when people are tired and grouchy and wanting to get home How do you find those announcements? Are they working? Do we need to look at that requirement for decibels or anything? I'm wondering about that. And also, if you will, on the location of bus stops, I went out and spent several hours on the bus system here in Chicago last evening. And I'm wondering about the actual stop in relationship to it a shelter if there happens to be a shelter. How do you identify where the bus is going to stop now, those issues.
>> Fir st of all, regarding the audible announcements, I don't think that we adjust it real

- time according to the ambient sound. We'd probably try to figure out a happy medium. For example, this morning, the bus I rode had a slightly goofed up announcement prot ocol until either it reset itself or the driver
reset it. So, you know, I had some discussion with the driver and he
identified the route because the bus's exterior announcement didn't talk when it boarded. And I think that some of my colleagues her e who are blind will say some remarks about Pace
which is the suburban bus a nnouncement versus the Chicago
Transit A uthority announcements. They may help answer your question about the clarity and the volume of announcements. Regarding bus stops, bu ses stopping at shelters, I think we have instructed bus operators to stop a few feet past the shelter because if the bus operator stops right in the shelter with the front door lined up with the interior of the shelter and then deploys a ramp and a person using a mobility device comes down the ramp into the shelter, then the person is in the shelter until the bus leaves and may have trouble getting out of
the shelter and so forth because the shelters were installed obviously after the sidewalks and the bui ldings were installed. And sometimes the clearances are pretty tight. So we don't

-- we instruct the drivers not to get passengers on and off the bus directly from within the shelter. And some of that depends on, you know, what the drivers can do physic ally at a given bus stop and what the passengers request also >> J.R. HARDING: Is that satisfactory?>> RON GARDNER: How do you identify what buses are going to

stop there, Steve? >> If you don't know, then you would call the transit system or look up the bus stop location online. Otherwise, yes, because we have a bus stop down the street here at Michigan and Wacker. Some buses stop there and some don't. So that's a critical question. And I'm planning to discuss later that we don't really expect tr ansit systems to call on third parties to assist customers with disabilities or blind people in particular. So if you don't know, then you would ask questions of either

the bus drivers or the customer service or transit information people on the phon e or else you'd go online >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Steve. Thank you, Ron. [Are there] a ny other questions? Hearing none, Marcia [is] our next speaker.
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: What's the last name?

>> J.R. HARDING: Trans

-- >> No, not even clo se. I thought I was No. 10. I'm sorry >> J.R. HARDING: Well, you were, but we had a few no

- shows. So you got moved up the food chain. >> Okay. My name is Marcia Suwinski. This is Fred. He works for me. Congratulations on your birthday and congrat ulations, Howard. Good to see you. I missed you last week. I'm glad you're on this committee. And here is an individual, but because I am the former

co

- chair of the RTA ADA advisory committee, the current vice
chair of the Pace ADA committee and have served on the Pace blue
rib b on committee, I have not only got my own personal experience but I've become a repository of experience for many other
consumers and other clients. So I speak as an individual, but I speak with experience of myself and others. Let me address paratransit first. We have a regional paratransit system, as you know. It is run differently in the city. One of the issues with vehicles, you've hea rd a little about already. I won't repeat it. You've heard it. Some of the concerns, I want to emphasize are the fact that because in the past, we have not had any input into the configuration of
the vehicles. I now ride often times in a vehicle where the
seat is so high; my feet don't touch the ground. The belt is configured so high that it chokes me. And I have nothing to hold on to. So when the driver, when necessary, must hit on the brakes as, if you drive in a big city, you know I'm often times, what I call the spread eagle. So there is a concern there. In these same vehicles, in order for the driver to do the securement of the wheelchairs, he's forced to go between my legs about a foot off the ground, which is not pleasant for either of

u s, and secure the straps. These are small things, but they're not small things. They're big things. By the same token, those very straps are then at least 6inches off the ground. When I have to leave the vehicle, I have

to be careful and take ver y, very patient time off that vehicle because I don't know how many and where all those straps rand so I have to do that very carefully. That's personal experience. I have been in vehicles where, because of the seat configuration, the service animal harness could not get through because the space was not wide enough. And they were either damaging the harness, the wheelchair, or the seat or the
individual. I've also been on vehicles where the configuration is so
difficult that wheelchairs had t o get on and get off and play
musical wheelchairs in order to accommodate both them and the individuals who are ambulatory. We've also had experiences where, because of the problems
with the lift or the

-- I don't want to judge why it's inadequate, b ut it's not working, individuals especially elderly, I know one testimony of a person who is 90 years old who is forced to exit the rear of a vehicle, literally sitting on the floor of the vehicle and sliding out because she couldn't get out of the vehicle

. Pace has been made aware of this. This is not a secret. Nor has it happened in the last six months, but it has happened. These are issues we are very concerned about as riders of paratransit.
On to fixed route s . As a person who is visuall y impaired among other disabilities, if you want us to use fixed route, and we'd love to, we have to be able to get to the fixed route bus stop in a safe manner. With the onset of quiet cars, I'm merely emphasizing one more time that these are issues, whe n the cars are quiet and we can't hear them, we need audible, accessible pedestrian signals. I know that's an IDOT, CDOT issue. If you want me on a bus, you have to be able to get me to the bus stop and in order to do that, I need to be able to cross saf ely and with quiet car, it is an issue. Having said that, using fixed route vehicles, some of the problems we encounter are not so much on the vehicle but I will speak to the issue, I believe its Mr. Talbot asked, about the voices of the audible stop s. They are often too quiet. They do not change in the bus when the bus is routing with lovely young energy coming out of high school. There is no adjustment in the volume to hear the stops announced. I have been on several buses where the stops w ere not announced and when I asked the driver whether he had reported the bus as not having audible announcements, he said, it's broken, but magically three stops later they started talking. So I'm not clear where the miracle happened, but it did.

A lso when we are trying to wait for a bus, it does not adjust for ambient noise at a busy intersection, so one has to stand very near that to get the announcement as needed. Often times in a busy intersection or a transfer point,buses will stop behin d buses. This is very difficult for us

because we're waiting at a designated bus stop. My personal selection has put me next to the post that has the bus stop sign, I figure that's the least complicated and the bus driver will get it. And often times th e bus is stopping behind my bus and he's loading back there and then doesn't stop at this bus and merely moves on because the light is green. That's a
consideration
Another issue we have with buses is rout ing. What you heard

Mr. Hastelis say, I'm no t going to repeat but I'm going to try to enhance since he got there first. We often times will consult either the web site or a human person with the

RTA travel information. While the web site is relatively accessible, and I have to say, I was one of those people who was involved in that, it is not completely accessible. It does not tell me where the bus stop is. It tells me the intersection. This is not acceptable. Often times on many of these web sites there is a visual picture
with some sort of demarcation where the bus stop is. So in other words, if you can see on the computer, you get the information where the bus top is. If you can't see and you have to use a screen reader, you don't get that information. I know that's web accessibility and that's later but it's still an issue with transit because I don't know where the bus stop is. We also get no updated information if a bus stop is moved because of construction. If a bus stop is moved because there's scaffolding and you can't enter th e bus stop at that intersection. Often times, there are all kinds of very real reasons and several months' worth of rerouting. But we are not able to access all of that either on the computer or with the live person.

Let me talk about the RTA trave l train, the travel center, which is where we get our travel information. With the same information, I am still not given specific information about where the bus stop is. Take the 3 to Roosevelt and transfer to the 12. Okay. Well, that's an intersecti on. Where do I catch
the 12? I don't know. Ask the bus driver . Well that, may or may not work because believe it or not, some of the bus drivers don't know and it's not always a safe thing to ask him or her to do that. This is not equal access for us while we're trying to
use fixed route Some of the problems, boarding buses and leaving buses, having to do with drivers who are poorly trained or need retraining about using the lift and using the kneeling for the

buses. In transferring, we are often times have to rely on a third party to get to the transfer point or if we have to get to the L, the bus may not stop where the L exit or entrance is and so we then have to make either a block, a half a block, cross the street, make a U to come back t o that bus stop. And there isnothing to indicate that either through a living person or

through a web site. So we just don't know. And if I'm the only one getting off the bus, I have to trust that the driver is going to give me correct information because my life depends on getting across that intersection, around to

that L stop. Using the L, we have been told that there are customer assistants that will assist us to find the doors and get on and
off. I have been told that where there isn't a customer assistant, I can get someone from the CTA to help me. That is a great concept in theory. In reality, often times, they're not available or they're busy assisting other customers. As more people with disabilities are using fixed route and there is one CA, or customer assistant at a given L station, with the number of trains that come through that station, please understand, that person is still only able to be at one place at
one time. Often times I have to rely on a third party to h elp me. Also often times at the newer station, I've been told that there are visuals telling you the next train approaching, the train approaching. The information about various trains and transfers, t hat is not available to me because it doesn't speak. It is absolutely inaccessible. I have no idea. I have to depend on the literacy and the compassion of another rider who is going to tell me what they see on those screens so that I can access the right train and the right transfer. I could go on a nd on about that. My real concern here to sum it up has to do with safety. It has to do with safety in paratransit vehicles. Let me say that the drivers in paratransit vehicles are phenomenal. They do really good job. I don't want any reflection on th em. It's the vehicles. My
concern about fixed route has more to do with the miraculous return of some of the audibles, either inadequately or adequately. And my concern about transfers, locations, information, access, and the opportunity to use the fixe d route service in a way that is safe. Thank you. >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you. [Are there] a ny questions from the Board? Yes, Howard, please. One of our newest members. >> HOWARD ROSENBLUM: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank you f or coming down to talk to us. She's a very strong advocate for the community. I do have a question for you about one of the comments regarding support from the drivers and other personnel. How often do you experience the drivers being supportive as oppo sed to not being supportive in helping you with the information that you need or sending you the right directions or whatever, if you can elaborate on what's happened. To what extent has that really occurred? >> I assume you are speaking about fixed route ?

>> HOWARD ROSENBLUM: Yes. >> Okay. It is my experience that I would say between 50 to 75percent of the time, I get some assistance. I would say

percentage

- wise, maybe 30 to 50 percent of that is actually 100 percent accurate. And part of that actu ally goes to the simple
solution that a bus driver will say, in all honesty, the bus stop used to be over there but I don't see it now.

So that driver isn't even aware that a bus stop has changed. And they may or may not be able to look in an inters ection and eyeball the new bus stop. They may or may not. It's a real risk. And I have to say, maybe half of the time are they 100 percent helpful. >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you. Any more questions, Howard?

Mr. Talbot has a question

>> GARY TALBOT: Thank you, Mr. Chair, Gary Talbot, public member. Marcia, if I could just ask you a similar question I asked the person earlier. I believe it was Steve. Yesterday, we walked for a couple miles on the sidewalks. And I noted

several of the bus stops, took some pictures of the bus stop signage and some of the shelters and things like that. Again, I would ask you the same question. Because you guys use near

- side, far

- side, mid

- block locations for your bus stops, it seems to me if you h ad some type of a sign that would be like raised character braille that would let you know that that's the right location for that stop, would that be helpful? >> To some extent, that would be helpful. My concern would be to find some sort of uniform plac e or location where I could go to access the information. On any given block, even if you think of downtown, busy transfers, any of them, you have paper stands. You have benches. You have planters. You have bus shelters. You have various posts for lig hting, for stoplights for intersections, for cameras. My concern would be, would there be a specific and consistent place to go to get that information. So finding it could be as big a challenge as accessing it. That is my first

concern Anothe r concern I would have is that if I had that information ahead of time, if I could go to a really accessible web site or a really knowledgeable person and could say, if I go to the corner of Michigan and Randolph on the northeast corner, which buses stop t here, or where is that bus stop, I could get some information prior to actually making the trek to try to
find it We are also hoping, if there is any possibility, and this is a personal suggestion, if you've walked some of the sidewalks

and the curb c uts and the areas here in the downtown area or in the city, you know that we not only have curb cuts but in some of the less angled ones we also have truncated domes that also help us identify where the city sidewalk stops and the street begins. If there was a way to indicate some sort of tactile mark to know that that's the bus stop, while it would not giveme information as to which bus is going to stop, at least I

would know I was in the right place. That's one option. That would be a possibility. A consistency in bus stops, saying all buses stop at the far side of their intersection, would be another help for us to

know. Some of those rules exist, but they're not uniform. There's so many exceptions to the rule that it really deems the rul e useless. So a consistency would help. A tactile demarcation would help. Human people on the other end of a phone that would know that information or could pull up a site that would specifically

-- we have all this GPS technology. I can't imagine that we can't pull up a web site somewhere, somebody, who can see and say, okay, the bus stop is 100 feet north of Roosevelt. Someone can do that. I'm assured the technology is there. It's just not made its way to where those of us who need
transit informat ion can access it. That's another solution. Does that help? >> GARY TALBOT: It does, but I'll

-- let me repeat myself again because I want to make sure I understand. I agree with you, I think something tactile on the ground surface would be a nice

--
> > Yes >> GARY TALBOT: Way to let folks know that, okay, you're at the right location. But I'm also thinking that, I know it's something we're trying in Boston. I know there are other cities and systems that have done it, putting the route number and the destination for any and all buses that stop at that location, doing it at a consistent height on the pole, on the stop, same place every time so that folks have a way to orient. I'm just

--
> > That could help, I agree with you

>> GARY TALBOT: O n the human side, my concern is, on the human side with budget cutbacks and things like that, you fix it today, and it could be gone tomorrow. If you could fix it with a way that you can do it on your own, like you said. >> Absolutely.

>> GARY TALBOT: Through the web site or through other means. It seems like something that we have a much better chance of improving bus service for folks with disabilities.
>> I think the raised character and the braille would be a reason to do it and the reason I'm emph asizing raised character, I'm also affiliated with senior organizations and those folks losing their vision are not going to lose braille. Having raised characters would help a great deal. Having it at a level where people could access it more effectivel y would be
wonderful. And if we knew this information would be at the same stop where the actual bus stop sign was, I think at the worst possible scenario, I could go to anyone in that intersection and say, excuse me, please help me get to the sign that s ays "bus stop."Once they got me to that location, I would have access to the

print, the raised, the braille, and I could know where I had to go. The only impracticality piece to that would be that we have snow. And it might be a little tricky to get it when it is really cold if you have to tactilely do it. Secondly if there's an intersection with at least eight or ten bus stops, it could be a tremendous amount of information to try to put on that piece of, whether it be a rolling thing, a speaking thing , a braille thing. It would take a lot of space. So I realize it could work if you have two or three buses, it would be fine. I do think the bus identification, when they're working; the audible bus identification is a great asset. When the bus pu lls up, I know what number it is and what its final destination is. That is very helpful. That does help me. But my concern about the bus stop information would be, if it was a consistent place, that it would be in a way that we

could then

-- it wouldn' t be overwhelming if it's a busy
intersection But I could see it as a potential solution. >> GARY TALBOT: Thank you. >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Mr. Talbot and Marcia. I appreciate it. Any other questions? Hearing none. I made a mistake earlier

-- okay. Now I'm getting direction. I feel like an air traffic controller. I made a mistake in the pecking order of the speakers and would like to right that wrong. And could our other Marcia please come up to the table.

> > Oh , that's the prob lem. There aren't that many of us. >> No. Hi, Marcia.

>> Hello.

> > No problem at all. And not a pecking order issue. I didn't
want to not be on the list at all >> J.R. HARDING: No, you were there. It was just, I needed to have it checked that you we re physically here.

> > That’s fine. Thank you. My name is Marcia Kelliker. I'm the director of public policy for Equip for Equality. Equip for Equality is a state

- wide independent not

- for

- profit organization that was designated in 1985 to provide prote ction and advocacy services for people with disabilities in Illinois. And we're very grateful for this opportunity to discuss transportation issues. Transportation issues have been an important priority at Equip for Equality

-- oh, I'm sorry

-- have been an important priority at Equip for Equality since our inception. And because we know that it is integral to enabling people with disabilities to have full, active lives in the community. Transportation is essential to getting to medical appointment s, to getting to jobs, to getting to school, to getting to shop. Everything that people need to do who live in the community in most cases requires some sort of transportation.For people who do not drive or cannot drive, and a lot of

people, not only with disabilities but people who do not have disabilities, may not own a car, may be older and don't feel comfortable driving. They need good, safe, accessible, affording trans portation. And so we're pleased to be able to provide some comments on the proposed guidelines. We strongly support changing the ramp ratio from a 1.4
maximum to a 1.6 maximum

-- I'm sorry, minimum, slope at bus stops with or without sidewalks. Not only because there have been documented cases of wheelchairs sliding back but also because even in cases where 1.4 might work, it could become very precarious in inclement weather, which we have a lot in Chicago. So we'd like to see that change. An d we strongly support your recommendation. I personally commute on Metra, which is our Chicagoland's commuter rail system. I use a cane and need to use a lift at my local station because the distance between the platform and the first step on my tra in at that station is too wide for me to safely negotiate it. And I'm very lucky that Metra has the lifts because of the ADA. They didn't when I started 23 years ago using it and didn't need a lift. They didn't have them either. But fortunately, becaus e of the ADA, that has changed. If it weren't for that lift, I would have to give up my job.

And I don't

-- you know, I don't want to see anybody with a disability have to give up their job because they cannot get to work because our system doesn't accommodate them. We also strongly support specifying actual measurements for sufficient clearance. We think that will benefit everybody because everybody will be aware of their rights and responsibilities. Our only concern about that is to make su re that those measurements will enable people with larger wheelchairs to use the system. And a lot of times, things are geared towards smaller wheelchairs and it excludes people who use larger wheelchairs. With regard to the automated announcements, I think the testimony already has really laid out a lot of issues about automated announcements and also how important they are. And they're not only important to people who are blind and people who needs to be not only vocal but it also needs to be visu al, both, because you also have people riding the transit who are deaf. And those written announcements of the next stop and of the route are really helpful to those people as well, as well as the audio being helpful to people with disabilities. And peop le who may have cognitive disabilities may find an audio more helpful than visual. But both are necessary to ensure access for everyone, depending on their disability, because it also helps other people. I think that's one of the things that we have not stressed enough with regard to accessibility under the ADA. A lot of the changes that have been made have made life easier formore than just people with disabilities. They've made life

easier for, the curb cuts help people with baby carriages,

peop le with sample cases, and people with suitcases. This system helps people who are unfamiliar with the train such as tourists or people who ride infrequently and may need that extra information to be sure to get on and off where they want So I urge th at we not only require it but we require that it be done in a way that will work, as I know all technology has problems once in a while. But it should be very rare. And the operators of the vehicles should know what to do when it gets off track so that p eople have this information. In fact, Equip for E quality, Access Living, and some private attorneys represented individuals with a wide range of disabilities in a systemic lawsuit under the ADA some years ago to address a wide variety of grievances about the lack of accessibility of CTA buses and the CTA system in general, including at the time CTA bus drivers were supposed to announce stops. But there's almost a total systemic failure of that happening. Among the provisions in the settlement agreement was the requirement that the CTA provide audio and visual automated stop and route announcements. But I learned this morning as I sat here that there's still some problems with that. And there are also things that I think weren't anticipated until they were put
in about the information that is actua lly needed to give people a proper location of where they're getting off the bus so they know how to access the next leg of their trip. We have a very complicated system in Chicago. You can take rail, you can take Metra, and you can take buses. And consequently, there needs to be a source for information for people in whatever method works for them that will tell them what that transportation route will be for them. Take the train to here, the bus to here, and be specific.

And then on the acc essible boarding, I just wanted to say that we think it's very good to be looking at accessible boarding for people who are using the light rail we have. Well, it's rapid transit system that we have in Chicago. It does have doors on each side. And they open at different stops on different sides. So there needs to be a clear understanding on the operators about how they make those doors accessible and then an accessible path to the priority seating, although as we've heard this morning, we also have a pr oblem with the priority seating being available. One of the most important things about that system is making sure that if they need gap fillers, the bridge plates, that they have them available because we have complaints all the time that people get to the stop and the bridge plate isn't available and that there's somebody who works for the system that knows how to properly deploy it so that people can use this system. >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you so very, very much. All right, arethere any questi ons from the Board members? We've got, what,

Howard and John. Oh, Gary, John, and Howard. John, you go first, sir. >> JOHN WYVILL: Okay. John Wyvill, public member. I have a question for the witness. I think we all can agree that there is an oppor tunity for growth, improvement, and refinement in anything that we do. In the context of the proposed rule making, could you share with us some concrete examples from your experience of what in the Chicago area is being done right in terms of transportati on vehicles?
>> That's a difficult role to take on in this audience. But I do think we have improved over where we were before the lawsuit. But we still have a long way to go.
We have more accessible stations than we did before. We do
have audio a nd visual systems in our vehicles. And the other thing that we have done is, I think, addressed some of those issues about training personnel to try to assist people when the technology breaks down. But we still need to do more. We need
to make sure tha t people really understand how important it is to address the issue right on the spot and not make people wait. And we also need for the system to keep track of where people are running into problems so they can address them. One of the biggest comp laints has been the lack of response when people file complaints. And that's the way you find out what's not working, is to take those complaints, take them seriously. And to just ignore the person and not let them know what you're doing about it is

-- w ell, it's rude. And it's wrong. People should be responded to whenever they have an
issue. I know, you know, we're currently in a terrible fiscal situation in the state, not so good in our country. But we also need to prioritize how we use our mon ey, how we use, for instance, the stimulus money. Do we really need to repair every street in Illinois? It sure seems like, when I'm in a car, that we're trying to repair

-- repave every street in Illinois. And I know for sure some of them were repaved just a couple years ago. I know that that creates jobs for some people, but why couldn't some of that money have gone into public transit and into making public transit more accessible for people >> J.R. HARDING: Right. Thank you. I appreciate it, Joh n. Gary Talbot, question >> GARY TALBOT: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a follow

- up to make sure that I understand, a s far as communication, your testimony would be that you would

-- you currently have both visual and audible equipment on board your b uses. So your routes are identified with audible and visual, and then your on

- board

announcements are.
>> Inside
>> GARY TALBOT: Inside. >> Outside as well, I heard>> GARY TALBOT: And outside as well, I heard.

>> On the buses and the L's. It's hard to hear the L's. >> Because they're very noisy >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Mr. Talbot. [Are there] a ny other questions from the board? Thank you, Marcia. I appreciate it We've had a lovely chat so far, but I've got to change the
rules a little bi t. We're now down to five minutes for speaker comments. So I need you guys to accommodate one another to make sure we can get everyone. And then should we have additional time at the end, we can be a little more long

- winded once again. Kerry Legg. Ready when you are, sir. >> Yes. Good morning. My name is Kerry Legg. I'm with New
Flier Indust ries. New Flier is a major manufacturer of heavy duty transit buses. And when I came before the U.S. Access Board approximately two years ago, I believe w e put in a request at that time that in order to make changes that would make the buses more accessible that we needed better guidelines. And you've gone a long way toward doing that.
There will be discussions on the content of these guidelines. More comments will be s ubmitted to my office to

Mr. Pe ch t before the end of November. So a few questions for the Board, maybe two, to look at this morning to start off with. At the very b eginning of the document

-- >> J. R. HARDING: Does everyone know [that]copies of the

document are in the hallway and online. Okay. Please,

Mr. Legg. >> T201 general basically starts off by saying; new, used manufactured vehicles shall comply with the re quirements, which are following along here. That brings into question the 20 years' worth of buses that are currently on the road. Do those buses have to be modified to comply with the new standards once they come into effect? My

current understand ing is that, no, they do not unless they are

to be remanufactured or sold. Is that correct? >> J.R. HARDING: I would turn that over to our attorney,

Mr. Raggio. >> JAMES RAGGIO: Yes, we do have

-- as a matter of fact, that was raised in Page 2 about the retrofit. We did have a discussion because in the past, remember we came out with a draft, that was a question that was raised about the retrofit. Our guidelines again apply to the extent they're required by the Department of Transportation, and bas ically it applies to new
and remanufactured vehicles. There is another provision in the ADA which the access board does not have responsibility for that's called barrier removal. And that applies to both facilities and to vehicles. And the Departme nt of Transportation and the Department of Justice had responsible for implementing those provisions. And that's something that they will have to address in a separate rule making as far as whether any revision in the guidelines wouldapply to existing ve hicles.

That is a separate provision in the ADA which the Board does

not have to address.
>> Just a follow

- up question, those vehicles that are currently on the road that meet the 1991 guideline requirements, if they're not required to be remodeled, reconditioned, remanufactured, they're just staying on the road as

- is, not going to be resold until retirement, do they remove the international symbol of accessibility which is under Section T703 because they will no longer meet the new ADA regulations. >> AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good point. >> JAMES RAGGIO: I think that's something that you think is important to be addressed, I would suggest you include that in your comments. And maybe that's something we could give specific guidance for in terms of having some sort of certification as to meeting what guidelines. >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Jim. Mr. Legg, any additional comments or questions? >> There are comments which I will put into

-- nothing I can
cover in a five

- minute time period, things such as Section 802.2 which says that ramps need to be slip resistant but no coefficients of friction are applied to this, either wet or dry, which leaves it wide open to interpretation. >> J.R. HARDING: That's a good question. >> Rear facing securement, the ne w provision for the backrests, the design of this has no force requirement capabilities, what's it supposed to be able to absorb, what can it be made of, the height of the headrest, leaves us with concerns that it may result in neck or back injuries becaus e it's assuming that the mobility device has a backpack or something else attached to it. So I would like to just further on to Mr. Ross's earlier comments, the original ADA was released in 1991. It's taken us this long to get to the level of design for forward

- facing securement, which I'm pretty sure there's several people here that will attest it's certainly not perfect yet. For

rear

- facing securement, it's going to take us even longer. Our design engineers are currently trying to prove that they got an educational degree. So they're severely being taxed to come up with solutions to what are in these proposals. So from a manufacturing standpoint, it's going to take us time to come up with something that can meet

-- we can do most
of this. Most of it is good, but there will be more comments and more discussion, I'm sure >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you. I appreciate it. Look forward to receiving those salient points of view. Moving on, Mr. Larry Schneider.

> > Good morning, and thank you for the opportunity to comment.
I wish I had made it before the five

- minute limit. My comments are primarily concerned with people who ride in wheelchairs and public and paratransit. I'm a researchprofessor at the Universit y of Michigan Transportation Research

I nstitute. I'm head of what we call the Rehab E ngineering

C enter, wheelchair transportation safety, which is funded by the National Institute for Disability and Rehabilitation Research.
And I'm chair of the RESN A committee on wheelchairs in transportation We've submitted comments, written comments to previous

drafts of the

-- prior to the NPRM. We note that some of our comments have either been misinterpreted or rejected. Question
15 asks for whether some of these included. So I have a number of issues I want to address. And maybe I can only get a couple of them out in this first five

- minute time period. But hopefully, I can come back if there's more time. Rear facing, we say we should not all ow rear facing in smaller paratransit vehicles. This should be confined to only the large vehicles, particularly large vehicles, we think the wording ought to say, large vehicles that allow other passengers to stand while riding in the vehicle where you d on't have any expectation of any frontal collision. We know they have them, but they're very rare. So we think that's the condition that rear facing wheelchair stations ought to be only allowed for. The reason for not having them in the smaller veh icles and the reason given for rejecting it in the NPRM is not quite right. It's not that we don't have the technology for high

G rear facing stations. The problem is that we're trying to address people with a wide range of wheelchairs and configurations . And when you do that in a smaller vehicle, you're putting that person at extreme risk of serious injury because you're not going to have a good fit of that head and back support and wheelchair. The other thing we note is we recommended that the us e of
what we call a forward excursion barrier for the rear facing stations, a gain, only in the larger vehicles. And we note that

the NPRM seems to have misinterpreted what we meant by, defining the geometry of that from the floor to 24 inches above the

fl oor. And then they provide a headrest, a head restraint or head support above that, above the back of the wheelchair. Well, this is really going to present a serious injury problem, particularly in the small vehicles. And we have an
international s tandard, and we would recommend that that be referred to. There has been work done, the previous commenter mentioned about rear facing stations. We've will clarify what we think the geometry of that forward facing barrier should be
and even in a small ve hicle environment. In the large vehicle environment, that is. But in the small vehicle environment, allowing rear facing passenger stations even with the forward excursion barrier is a problem because of the backpacks, etcetera, that you talk about and the differences in wheelchair geometry that are not going to allow good head and back support in a frontal collision, whichis a serious concern in a the smaller vehicles. So the forward

excursion barrier will clarify what we think it should be. We

t hink it's totally inadequate and inappropriate as currently
defined. We also note that we recommended that for forward facing stations that the securement systems and the tight and restraint systems comply with ASE practices J2249. And that was not accepted, but we see no reason why you would not accept that for the pa ratransit smaller vehicle environment because almost all

4

- point securement systems comply with that anyway. So there's no real cost involved in saying, you know, you should comply with that. And we think particularly in the small vehicle environment, wh y not go with what's been done. And it's going to be a new standard in RESNA, WC18, we call it. That's an example. The small vehicle environment ought to say, you should have WC18 or JJ249 compliant tie

- down restraint systems available for the occupants who are seated in wheelchairs. And generally, we think that the guidelines should refer to existing standards where appropriate. We understand that this is not all about safety. We've heard a lot of comments this morning about safety, concern abou t s afety. I understand that
the Access B oard and the purpose is, safety is not, you know, number one. It's accessibility and it’s equal rights and it's a lot of other things. But clearly there's a lot of concern about safety. We ought to not be doing t hings when we're presenting a situation which is completely unsafe like rear facing in small vehicles. So we just think there's no basis for that. And I don't know of any small paratransit vehicles where there are rear facing stations anyway, so why allow that, and why allow that exclusively. Final point I'll make in this brief five minutes is, I know

the NPRM doesn't address the so

- called operation or usage issues of equipment. It just simply says what should be in the
vehicle. And the curre nt version of the transit guideline says that a public

-- a transit provider can have a written policy that says, wheelchair securement is up to the individual or they can say that it's required, if you're going to take, get on the vehicle in your wheelcha ir and be traveling in your wheelchair. We think that leaving it up to the individual is a mistake. If you want to level the playing field, people who are not in wheelchairs have their seat bolted to the floor, they're not in a heavy wheelchair that could move around. We think that leaving that as an option to the user is really

-- doesn't go with the spirit of what's trying to be done, that there ought to

be

-- that it ought to be required, at least the wheelchairs should be secured, even in the la rger vehicles, and particularly in the smaller vehicles where obviously, the state laws will

govern seat belt usage. And we understand there are issues about seat belt issues. Clearly we've heard about issues and

concerns about those of theSo secur ement of the wheelchair, we think, should be

mandatory, whether it's a large vehicle or a small vehicle. And we know there are problems with wheelchairs that make that difficult. We also like if the guidelines recognize that there is a wheelchair transpo rtation safety standard, WC19, and we have a wheelchair over here that, in fact, complies with that that have securement points that make it a the lot easier and just getting that word out would be a very positive thing, if the guidelines would at least re cognize that that type of wheelchair existed, if more people had them, it would make life easier for securing the wheelchairs and you wouldn't have problems with putting securement straps between legs and things like that for the passengers.

So those will be my brief five

- minute comments. And I'll take any questions >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Dr. Schneider, go, Big Blue, you're

4

- 0. You have a graduate down there at the end of the hall there. He's pretty excited. I think he's really thrilled th at there is an engineer around. Do you have a comment, Mr. Talbot >> GARY TALBOT: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for your comments, Larry. I think, one question for you, I know the forces are so less on a large vehicle than they are a small vehicle, but if I could just make sure that the Board understands your comments, as far as securements, given your analogy of the rest of the seats are bolted to the floor, so if it's an equality issue that we're trying to achieve, whether it be in paratra nsit or a full

- sized, 40

- foot, 60

- foot bus, your recommends would be that securements be required on both the smaller vehicles and the larger vehicles so that everybody's
seat then is fixed to the vehicle.

> > Yes . That's exactly what I recommend

>> GARY TALBOT: Thank you.

> > Also in the rear facing passenger station, one other thing was, we also recommend that not just that you have a forward excursion barrier, which we're clarify with the geometry what it should be, there should be some containment of t he wheelchair, even though you're not securing it with straps that prevents it from moving into the aisle. There are ways of doing that tha t
exist. So we think that a loo s e 400

- pound wheelchair

-- a loose
400

- pound wheelchair on any vehicle is a hazard t o other occupants.

>> > Thank you, Professor. Maybe we'll see you in D.C. at our next meeting. >> There's a good chance of that >> J.R. HARDING: Our next speaker then is David Meyer, I believe. David Meyer? The microphone is up here in the middle

of th e room, sir. There, go, sir, w henever you're ready. >> My name is David Meyer, and I'm here as a representative of the National Federation of the Blind of Illinois, Chicagochapter.

My comments this morning will concern the necessity for
consis tency in calli ng of stops, automated stops, f or automated stop calling systems, for lack of a better term. My familiarity in this subject really goes pretty much with the Chicago area buses and trains, with CTA, with Pace, and with Metra. And at this poi nt, I would love to commend CTA especially for the way that they have dealt with it on buses. For one thing, it's been my experience that the CTA buses have been, for the most part, very consistent in the presentation calling of stops. The volume le vel of the

announcem ents is generally consistent a nd in almost all cases, quite audible. All streets are called, not just major intersections. That's something that I think should be pretty much mandatory. If we had the information of where we are, we can make decisions, and we do not have to bother others when it comes to knowing when t o actually get off the bus. Stops are also quite audible, and they're consistently audible. This is something that is very important because in
cases with other buses that I have ridden in other systems, you don't always hear the stops as they're ca lled, particularly when buses are going at a rapid rate of speed and over roads or in roads that are in a somewhat bumpy condition; a lot of rattles and ambient noise actually interferes with the stop

announcements. Another thing that's done very wel l, once the bus has stopped on the CTA, and actually this has been a pretty good experience, is that the route number is called and the final destination of the bus is called. Not only is it audible from outside of the bus, it's also very audible inside t he bus. Other systems could clearly benefit from that. I have known another system where an outside speaker is used where these announcements are pretty clear from outside of the bus, but it's questionable whether a person riding in the back of the bus

w ould actually be able to hear the announcements as there is no inside speaker giving those announcements. Other things that could possibly be avoided, on some of the buses that I have ridden, it is

-- a point is made to audibly announce that a stop i s requested after a bell rings presenting the stop

-- or alerting the driver to actually make a stop. The announcement that a stop is requested is at best superfluous and at worst distracts you from actually hearing the street.

It would be much more effective to give the name of the street where the bus is stopping rather than to just say that the stop is actually being requested >> J.R. HARDING: 30 seconds, Mr. Meyer. >> Okay. Finally, the last thing that I would say is, design of

new buses shoul d be, especially for the seating that may be preferential, should be designed in such a way so that serviceanimals can clearly be out of the way of other passengers,

especially wheelchairs. Pace definitely got this one right with
the newest of their buse s. As a matter of fact, when I first boarded a bus about five years ago, my service animal gave me the information I needed. He simply scooted under the seat that was available. And he was very much out of the way of everyone. If this could be a p ossibility, it would be great to have that design made a standard for new buses that will be produced in the future. Thank you very much. >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Mr. Meyer. [Are there] a ny comments? Mr. Talbot and then Mr. Gardner

>> GARY TALBOT: Thank you, Mr. Chair j ust two quick follow

- ups. On the call announcement

-- or excuse me, the stop announcement, when someone has hit the strip and requested a stop, is your testimony that you'd like to have, like they're going to stop at a stop, so wou ld you like to have them state the stop that's being

-- that's being requested, is that what you would like, versus just the bell?

>> No

-- well, let me try to break this down a little bit. I'll compare two of the systems that are here in the Chicago area

. On the Chicago Transit Authority, all streets are called whether the bus stops or whether the street is passed. I find that to be really very helpful. On Pace, on the other hand, at least on the Pace buss that I've ridden in, when the bell is rung, yo u hear the announcement, the automated announcement say, "Stop requested." That's superfluous, that's a superfluous announcement when the bell has already indicated that a stop needs to be made. It also gives no information as to where the bus is actually stopping. So if something is to be announced, it would be much more effective to announce a street name rather than to say simply that a stop is requested. >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Mr. Talbot. Mr. Gardner? >> RON GARDNER: David, you said that there are some bus companies that you 've compared, some you've been able to hear the bus stop announcement that's coming up while you are riding the bus inside the bus, you can hear, and some you cannot. All buses rattle. If they hit a chuckhole, they're going to make a big noise. So we're talking about sort of equal ambient sounds. In your opinion, what is it that makes the difference between those buses that you can hear and those buses that you can't? Is it the quality of the sound? Is it volu me? What makes the difference, in your mind? >> Probably the volume in which the sound is actually produced.
I think in both

-- in my experience has been mostly with CTA and
Pace. With both CTA and Pace, the sound systems on the buses are actually prett y good. If the volume level is set to where the announcements can actually be heard under normal conditions, you can usually hear them with some struggle over ambient noise. My problem with some of the Pace buses, for example, hasbeen that the volu me level is very inconsistent. You may get

such a thing as (Whispering) Harlem Avenue, now approaching Madison. And when it's very low, when the announcement is very low volume level, especially if there's other ambient noise, it just makes it

un

-- it makes it undecipherable. It's not really audible even under the best of conditions. Under the worst of conditions, you just don't hear it at all. >> RON GARDNER: So the volume and the clarity are both related then, you're saying. >> I would say so, y es >> RON GARDNER: Just to review, Mr. Chair, if I might, you're suggesting that when a stop is requested that we only here a tone or a bell rather than the words, "Stop requested," is that

correct?

>> Yes. >> RON GARDNER: All right. And lastly, you, at the beginning of your testimony, indicated that on the CTA buses, while you're riding a bus, you can hear the outside announcement of which bus you were on and what the final destination is. Is that correct? >> Yes, you can actually hear them on both buses. But you
hear

-- on CTA buses; you hear the announcement from both
outside and inside of the bus >> RON GARDNER: Well, I guess my question is directly to that issue. You're not suggesting that the interior speakers continually state which route y ou're on and which is the final stop. You're not asking that that be announced inside the bus at every stop? I mean, you know whether you're still on that

bus or not. >> Well, of course. That's correct. But if somebody, for example, if the information is available, I like to be able to hear where it is I'm at and perhaps, you know, where the bus is going just for the benefit of whether or not, when I take that bus in the future, I might remember that I can actually take this bus to a route or, for examp le, with some of the

-- for example, some of the buses, like some of the Pace buses have different routes. 307, for example, has different stopping points. And it would be nice to know those stopping points even if I'm not necessarily

-- >> RON GARDNER: But you're talking about stop announcements inside the bus, not necessarily what the route number of the bus
is.

> > That’s true. >> RON GARDNER: Okay. I think I got your point, and I thank

you >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Mr. Gardner and Mr. Meyers. Thank you very much.

Our next speaker, and Board members will only have a question if it's necessary for the following speakers, Greg Pullman. Greg, not here?>> I am, but I didn't put my name down

>> J.R. HARDING: Okay. Somebody had you down. All right. That's okay. Okay. Next contestant on the Price is Right, Kelly Pierce. Kelly? It's straight in front of you, sir, just about five feet. There you go. And the microphone is there right to your right.

> > Very good. Thank you so much for t his opportunity. I will speak largely on T704 in the NPRM, the notice of proposed rulemaking . But first one issue I believe completely omitted

from the NPRM which several people today spoke about is the issue of locating bus stops and what several transi t systems around the country have done is to use square poles instead of round poles. And round poles are typically by a number of other signage. And square poles typically are exclusively used

-- or rarely, if ever, used. And if transit agencies used square poles, then blind people could find and identify those bus stop signs a lot more effectively than what they're going to do now. And this would be much more cost effective than any kind of sign at a lower level that a blind person could read in braille or another form which could be difficult in cold weather or if the person was not a braille reader, but certainly identifying a square pole as compared to a round pole would be a simple, easy to implement, cost effective solution as signs are repl aced and poles are deployed and so forth.
So that is one issue that the access board should contemplate and consider, something easy to implement that many transit agencies are already doing. In terms of 704 of the rules, in terms of the automa ted stop announcement system, the Board does ask the question regarding the quality of stop announcements. And that is very important. I realize it's been a Board practice in the past to avoid issues of methods and processes in mandating that. You indic ated in your question about asking it as an advisory. But we know through linguistics research, through language research, through other forms of objective peer reviewed, a scientifically validated study that there is a method in which speech is intelligi ble. And there are methods and practices in which

-- and approaches in which speech is not intelligible.
It seems in its rule making the Board totally ignores that mountain of research, that vast body of information to sidestep
that because of its inherent discomfort with issues of methods and processes. I would suggest that the Board consider issues of quality,
issues of v olume, for example, of stop announcements is very important. Issues of clarity would be very important. Let me just tale you a tale of two transit systems, one in Chicago that I've helped develop the audio interface for and
then the other in the sub urbs. The one in Chicago, as many people said, that they can hear, they can understand and isuseful. For me in the suburbs, the announcements are very

unintelligible. I can barely hear any of them. And they only are given on transfer points, not on ev ery stop. It's sort of seems a little unusual that you're going to mandate stop announcements but not for every stop on the system. The other thing to consider is other ambient noise. And the practice of some transit agencies to use services such as transit TV, which plays, for example, television programs throughout the entire bus experience. That is done currently on

the Pace s uburban bus system here in the Chicago area. And you have TV shows playing in the background while people would be hearing or trying to hear the stop announcements from

these

-- that you would be mandating and that are currently on

the bus. It's not possible to hear the stop announcements, in my experience, on a reliable, consistent basis over Transit TV. Obviously, there's a question of what happens to that revenue because the transit agencies derive revenue from the commercials. But still, it's t he ambient noise issue. And that
does not

-- and the rules again don't address the ambient noise issue in which the volume is lowered or raised depending upon the noise level in the bus; as well as, if there is ongoing media playing of, for example, telev ision programs on buses, the stop announcements would cut out that programming so passengers
with disabilities could hear those announcements. So I would encourage the Board very much to examine those
issues of

-- and actually ask perhaps other feder al agencies to conduct additional research to learn in terms of what issues, what levels of quality, what levels of acoustic engineering would be necessary for transit agencies to implement stop announcement systems so that they could be heard and actually utilized in a meaningful way, for a vast number of disabilities including those with multiple disables such as those with mild to moderate hearing impairments. While something could be heard by someone with normal hearing, even with a mild hearing i mpairment, I have found, working with a range of people with disabilities, that they're not able to hear effectively many of the stop announcements even

on the CTA buses. And their clarity which everyone suggests today is quite good.
So those are is sues

-- I will be filing further comments. I intend to, of course, work with locally some resources I have including the speech language laboratory in developing these comments eventually. But again, it is no substitute for original, fundamental research and also tapping into on a

meta basis the existing body of research in terms of what is effective for people in general to hear and effectively make use of audio information, which is totally and completely missing from the guidelines.

>> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Mr. Pierce. Is there a question from anybody?Hearing none, thank you, sir.

> > You’re quite welcome >> J.R. HARDING: All right. Michael Grace. I'm sorry, sir. You're next up. Would you like to

--
> > I’m going to submit written

>> J.R. HARDING: You're going to submit written comment to us?

>> Yes >> J.R. HARDING: Very good. We look forward to receiving it

then. All right. Dr. Mack, m

- a

- a

- t. Hearing none

-- over there. Sorry, ma'am. I apologize.

> > It’s Maat, two syllab les >> J.R. HARDING: Can someone move the chair for our speaker, please. >> AYO MAAT: I go through the same thing getting on some of the paratransit vehicles. Access is a big issue. My name is spelled a

- y

- o for the first name, last name is m

- a

- a

- t,

pro nounced with two syllables represent IMPRUVE, which stands for Independent Movement of Paratransit Riders for Unity, Equality. We're a national group. I'm here representing Illinois, Michigan, parts of Ohio, parts of Mi ami, Detroit, New Orleans, and P ort land, other began. There may be others. But I received some testimony which I will have to submit to you in writing from some of those people. Basically, here in Illinois with the

-- I'll start with the paratransit. I also want to briefly talk abo ut the

over

- the

- road buses. I live in what is known as Zone 3 in Chicago. This is a
zone which has a carrier that does not have accessible vehicles. And when I say "access," if we can't use them, they're not accessible. If they're too small, too h igh, not properly suspended. We discussed it with Pace. We discussed it with Pace's general counsel. This is the only zone or carrier that has vehicles that many of the people cannot ride in. The other

zones do. Basically, depending on your disab ility, you need to be not only safely secured but you have to make sure you can get on the vehicle. Many of the people cannot. And it's not because they're in oversized chairs. It's because the vehicles are improperly configured for a diverse population of disabled people. I do not believe that they were meant for adults but were meant for children. I've seen people slide in and out of the vehicles. I've seen people

-- well; I've received testimony from people who have fallen out of seats even wi th the belts on. They have made Pace aware of it. Now, my complaint to Pace has been for two years. I've also complained to DOJ and the FTA and have not received proper response. I'm missing doctor appointments, etcetera, etcetera.

I am not able to live independently as a person with adisability without transportation or access to it every day. So

I do the best I can on the limited income I have. I have to take taxis which I can't afford to get to a zone where there is
a safe vehicle. I don't think this is fair because people who ride the fixed route, if one bus doesn't work for them, they can
take another or take the train. If I could, I would not have to ride the paratransit, but I can't. My argument is not necessarily just with the Pa ce service board but with the system in general. I think the

FTA and DOJ should step in and do something about this. I also have 20 comments from someone, I thought that I could read theirs, but I can't, limited to the five minutes. It takes some

of us five minutes to 20 minutes just to get on a vehicle. I'm not blaming the drivers, but the belt securement systems are not standardized. I'm not blaming, as I said, the service board. But the carriers know who they're picking up and they need to keep tho se belts in order. They don't. The vehicles are not clean. The vehicles are often unsafe due to fumes. Many of us with respiratory problems cannot ride them. My organization is proposing a green paratransit, not in competition with the current ca rriers and any of these states but separate if necessary from the system so that people can ride who currently cannot. We would be able to provide the service, we don't care if it's public, private funding, we just need to be able to have our independence back. It's been denied to us since 2008 when the zone system was installed. I've rode many transportation systems. I can ride D.C.'s. I can ride Detroit. In fact, in June, we were in Detroit. We took a lot of complaints from people who were the re from all over the world, not just from this country, the biggest complaint is secured, you know, having securement, vehicles they can ride in, suspension, and respect. There needs to be mutual respect between the people providing the transportation and the
riders. Was the transit system set up for the customers or for the people who are earning the money to provide it? This is a big question. We have a declaration of transit freedom and justi ce which I will make sure this Access B oard get s a cop y. FTA, Pace, CTA, RTA, the Obama administration and other does have a copy. We're still waiting on responses to some of our complaints. I strongly urge you to light a fire under the FTA and DOJ so we can resolve these issues, not only in Illinois but in the other states. In Detroit, people are stranded when they miss their rides. There were several members of my group who would
have been stranded if I didn't know how to advocate. I found the Detroit Department of Transportation to be reasonable once we explained our situation. But they need to provide the same
level of service whether someone is a visitor or lives in that city.We received excellent service and accommodation once we

explained our situation, whereas the police in Detroit we re unaware that those vehicles were paratransit vehicles and made them move to an unsafe spot where we could not access the
vehicles. I asked them, did they want me to call the news media. Of course, they did not so they came back to get us. Other people who are there who are good advocates but somehow were not able to get this accommodation asked if I would submit some of their

te stimony. And I'll have to ask them to do it in writing. The other thing concerns getting responses, whether it's nighttime, evening. If we're stranded, we need the same level of customer service at night as we do in day. Here in Illinois,

we don't get it. The nighttime people do not have access to computer. So I would like to see the regulation address that, having the technology that the service board needs to be able to know where vehicles are at all times, day or night. If they're running 24 hours, they need this. At night, they don't have it. This is a very big problem with people who are blind, people who can't hear as well as people like me. I can hear. I may have low vision, but I can still see, you know, better than most people. And as I said, I strongly urge you to realize, Chicago is a world class city. We should have world class transportation. Whether we live in the suburbs, the city, it shouldn't matter. We travel all over. We need the same right.

We want the level of techno logy has. The customer service people, the drivers need training to know they are picking up people with diverse disabilities. We're not a one size, fits all. They actually think that some of us take too many trips.

And I never heard a bus driver say t hat. That's it for now. But I will need to assist my friend, she asked me to assist her, if you call her. Thank you >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, ma'am. Are there any questions for this speaker? Hearing none, we look forward to getting your addit ional comments for your other members for the record. >> Thank you >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you. I believe I have Patricia next.

Is that

-- yes, please.

> > The document, I will note that it has.... >> She said, her name is Patricia Basker. She is a director of

IMPRUV E . She also lives in zone 3 but in a suburban area. She has been injured trying to get on vehicles and off because the
vehicles are over packed , overcrowded in that particular zone. She would like to have some type of relief from the Access

B oard so that vehicles are consistent and so that her wheelchair is in the shop now was torn up because they packed too many people in the vehicles at one time that. Is a major complaint from Zone 3 in Chicago, not enough room, not only for

whe elchairs but ambulatory people. And yes, even though thereare some people who may have weight issues, whatever, I still

think they should address it. I think that the vehicles, you said, should be the same.

> > Because Pace

--
> > Okay . They should be

-- the Pace suburban buses do

-- are provided for paratransit do have enough room. If they're not going to use the ramp, they need to have the same type of buss that Pace provides. She can ride in those. A lot of people can. I know I can, do. But if peo ple cannot ride up high, they do need the vans with the ramps, just like people need the kneeling buses, some of us cannot ride in the higher vehicles.
Some of us cannot ride in ambulances.

In terms of the over

- the

- road bus, many of us cannot ride i n them, although I think Greyhound has a better system than the Megabus. I don't know if you regulate the Megabus, but it has absolutely no lift right now according to most customers. And that is a cheaper bus. And we think we're being denied access

to affordable transportation. Oh, and she slides in the seat because of the way the belts fit. And I have been in the vehicle when that happened to her. And the driver is on the expressway. He can't pull over. And
she slides out of her wheelchair ev en with the belt on, etcetera. And in terms of the other persons who talked about choking, yes, I get choked, too, sometimes. And we have to

-- we need the straps. We have to take them off. She said, the vehicles are uncomfortable for people who a re disabled. When they turn the corner, your chair turns over. A lot of wheelchairs have turned over from the vehicle turning the corner, even though a safety inspector assures that the vehicles are safe. They're not wide enough. And if she has to tran sfer to a seat, she is uncomfortable in the seat but in order to allow another wheelchair to get on, she has to do it. She's
forced to do it. She's forced to allow 90 minutes even if she's just going around the block that. Is not a Pace rule. I

checked with Pace. That is a carrier rule, and all carriers
should be consistent. That's it. Thank you. >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you both, ladies. Any questions for any of these speakers? Hearing none, thank you again, ladies.

The next speak er [is] Martinez, from South Florida Independent Living. Wow, got a fellow Floridian made the trip.

> > That’s because it was Chicago. >> The weather is good >> J.R. HARDING: We've got a lot of rain down there.
>> J.R. HARDING: Which CIL are you with, sir?
>> The Miami one. Act ually, we have a gentleman, Marc Dubin

that I serve with. He was a former DOJ that mentions some names that I've seen up here >> J.R. HARDING: Very good. You have your five minutes, sir.>> Thank you. My name is err knee Ma rt inez. I'm with the

Center for Independent Living in S outh Florida located in Miami,
Florid a. I also serve as chair of a Commission on Disability

I ssues at Miami

- Dade County. It's an advisory board that collects information and issues affecting people with disabilities in the community, reports directly to the County
commissioners.

There are two issues actually that I'd like to bring up and discuss. One actually is the capacity of people in wheelchairs that are allowed to ride on public transport ation, public buses. I understand that the maximum is two people right now. Am I correct? Okay. Thank you. I think that that number really needs to increase. As an example, in Miami specifically, transit rides, they're pretty far apart. And the re's an example, let's say that I am picked up at a shopping mall. And there might be about five people in wheelchairs waiting for an accessible ride on the bus. Who chooses, how do you know? It's up to the driver actually to choose who and how many fol ks are allowed to get on, but only two can board. South Beach is a very hot spot in Miami. That's another place that's real difficult to actually access and get on a bus. Usually you have to, when a bus stops, he'll tell you, sorry, I'm full, I already have my two wheelchairs and you
have to wait for the next bus. So I think it's really important that this committee addresses and examines, looks at the capacity of how many people could ride actually on public transit. The other one actually I probably will get a chuckle out of you guys and ladies. It's about actually riding on with children on para transit. It's different from public transit. Public transit, you're not required to carry a car seat. I think that's what you call it, a car saf ety seat for a child. On paratransit, because the vehicles are smaller, they have to adhere to state laws' they have to

-- you have to have a car
seat on to the vehicles. Now, for a person with a disability, chair, not chair, visually impaired also, this is a hardship. If you're going out to the movies or going out to the mall and actually maybe even taking your child out to a park, it's a very difficult thing to be carrying around and lugging that car seat around. You could use booster chairs, but they're not as safe. So I recommend and suggest that paratransit vehicles start carrying or having on

- board car seats for your children. I mean, this is all about inclusion. And we all have families
that travel with us. I have nothing else t o say >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, sir. Glad a fellow Flo ridian made the trip. Tell Marc I said hello. I have been informed that I accidentally skipped two gentlemen. I would like to ask Al Smith to come up next who reregistered, and then in the batter'sbox is Hal Hawkins. So we ha ve a third one. Sorry, sir.

>> I would like to stand

>> J.R. HARDING: Whatever is your pleasure, sir. >> I'm not at ease sitting down

-- >> J.R. HARDING: The microphone, if you want to pull it out, for the public record and those of us with hearing, listening
devices. >> I'm not used to talking and sitting at the same time >> J.R. HARDING: All right, v ery good, sir.

> > My name is Al Smith. I am a memb er of the Governor Quinn's Government Opportunity for Disabled Persons Task F orce. My presentation has already been mailed with the exception of the excerpt at the end. I would like to point out that in most of the smaller downstate counties in Illinois, there's a serious lack or a complete absence of affordable, safe transp ortation. The greatest job in the world is useless if you can't get to it. My wife and I had a fantastic group of volunteers are presently working on establishing a rural transportation system
in Knox County. We are having the assistance of the Ill inois institute of rural affairs at Western Illinois University in Macomb. We're working on it. Again, the greatest job in the world is useless if you can't get to it. In my opinion, an area that needs federal intervention is the development of a u niversal, automatic lockdown device for wheelchairs on mass transit buses, wheelchair taxis and trains. I doubt if very many much those who ride buses or trains here in Illinois today are properly tied down. The present system is complic ated, requir es the service of

an able

- bodied person, and is time consuming. The system that my wife uses in our van is safe, secure, automatic, and requires no assistance. This deployable ramp in the van gives her the freedom to go when and where she wants without any assistance. Many that use public transportation do not have this secure freedom. The greatest job in the world is useless if you can't get to it. In addition, I wish to point out that your proposed Section T802.2, slip resistance, surfaces shall be slip resistant, is called into question by an Illinois state supreme court ruling filed on July 15th, 2010, that's three months ago, four months ago, in which the Illinois State Supreme Court concluded that, quote, "We hold that the natural accum ulation rule applies in
this case and that the CTA has no duty to remove natural accumulations of snow and ice from its train platforms and no duty to warn of such accumulations."

This is what we're having to deal with in Illinois. We find
this rulin g appalling and shudder to think of the consequences. If I could, I'll close with a four

- line stanza from the Book of Mark, 2, 3, and 4. When some people came bringing aparalyzed man carried by four of them and when they could not

bring him to the Jesus, because of the crowd, they made a hole in the roof and lowered him by rope to the feet of our savior. In 2000 years, we've come a long way. Or have we? I'll take questions >> J.R. HARDING: Thank you, Mr. Smith. Any questions?
Hearin g none, thank you, sir, for your testimony. The gentleman in the front row that I missed, sir, we'll go with you first and then we'll end with Mr. Jim Watkins.

> > Okay

. >> J.R. HARDING: To your right. The microphone is right in front of you, sir.

> > Thank you. >> J.R. HARDING: And your name for the record. >> Okay. My name is Je mal Powell. And I'm making my comments
on behalf of the national Federation of the Blind in Illinois. I chair the transportation committee of the National Federation of the Blind in Illinois. And my comments deal with the issue of your regulations concerning automated stop announcements on

buses. And as several people mentioned, there ought to be a consistent standard in this. The Chicago Transit Authority does do a very good job on their buses and trains of calling out of their automated stop calling working properly and with the volume. Unfortunately, on Pace suburban buses, they call the stops but sometimes the volume is very low. Sometimes it's too high. And they only call the main streets and transfer points as compared to the CTA and other systems I've been at that calls every corner stop. Therefore, when coming up with regulations, there needs to be uniformity across the board so that the volume i s clear and that the corner stops are properly called so people know where they are getting off at. Now, I have a friend of mine who lives downstate. And she has issues with her transit system. And she's complained and complained about the not call ing stops, but it's to the point now, where, they only call stop when is she's on the bus when she gets off, they don't call them. And understandably, from what I understand of the regulations, it's only supposed to be for systems with 100 or more buses. I think at some point, you might want to look to expand that a little bit for some of these smaller systems who are very
lax on stop calling, plus on other systems I've heard horror stories about drivers turning off the automated stop calling systems because they felt it was too distracting, even though they had people on the bus who could have benefited from that. You might want to look at, at some point, requiring systems whereby the driver just can't manually turn them off. It's very importa nt for people who are blind to hear the stops so we know where to get off at so we can do what we haveto do. I live along a bus route where I've ridden it so long, I

pretty much know the twists and turns, but not everybody it is that fortunate. Or you c ould have new people to an area. And the automated stop calling has been very helpful. Anyway, thank you for your time. And I will conclude my remarks.

>> J .R. HARDING: Thank you, sir, a ny comments from members of
the Board? Hearing none

Mr. Watkins? This is our clean

- up hitter.

> > How are you all doing? How are you doing? My name is Jim Watkins, heavily been involved in transit. I'm a public transit
advocate for folks with disabiliti es, former co

- chair of the

RTA Advisory Committe e for N ortheastern Illinois, cu rrently serving on the Chicago Paratransit Advisory C ommittee, been involved with disability issues since roughly 1993. I did write something to read today. Of course, I'm at the tail end of listening to everybody. There s hould be national standards on
audible. There needs to be national standards. One of the

reasons CTA is so good, they had a class action lawsuit. That's why we are where we are, very grateful for that for many reasons We need to sit back, at least in my opinion, public service can't aim for everyone, what fixed route is about. Priority seating area, we have a severe issue here in Chicago of people bringing their baby carriages in and putting them in the priority seating area. We must remember ther e are some children with disables, they have every right to be in there, we have a severe issue here. Well, all I know, putting on the side the fact that children with disables would be in carriages, all I
know is there is a federal mandate that makes thi s area available for people with disables and seniors. Sure don't see a word about anything about baby carriages. This needs to be looked at because it's turned into more of an issue day by day. I very much support the idea pertaining to the kiosks

. There's less and less, especially here in Chicago, you look at service assistants are being reduced on a daily basis. There needs to be working kiosks at transportation centers. There's no doubt about it. They need to be available for all people
with disabilities. Pertaining to

-- even though I know it's supposed to be buses and trains, wonderful to have access to Amtrak, access to people in wheelchairs to all train stations at Amtrak, the lift ideas. One that's already used them, you feel

very unco mfortable in them. A couple feet off the ground, you

sure k now you can fall down. We know people that have done it. There needs to be a national securement device put together. Many of t hese newer chairs like this one. I use main line 95 percent of the time. I sure could slide forward. I don't slide backwards. Well, this kind of chair is not

-- there's no securement device for this type of chair on the main line in
this area. There needs to be standards on this. Seat belts are wonderful. Looking a t me, you wouldn't know I had bothshoulders remove. And that's okay but actually it goes right

across here and it pops the bone out. It's life. It's part of our lives. We all deal with different things in life. There needs to be, across the board, I read the proposals. They're wonderful. From 20 years ago in Chicago here where people were on State Street blocking buses, handcuffing themselves to buss to where we sit here today, I know I can use the system for the most part in northeastern Illinois h ere. Pertaining to paratransit, there needs to be national standards. You're sitting back, we have a national, paratransit is supposed to be here. One, it's not funded at the federal level. So it falls to states and local government. The state of Illi nois holds,

the RTA

-- owes RTA $300 million just for operating. CTA this week alone took $100 million out of capital improvements just to keep the system going. There needs to be, paratransit needs to have basic standard for everyone. They're goin g to change every couple of years because of the designs, but at a national level, we need to start back, it needs to be look ed at that way. Let's not put together suggestions. These are wonderful suggestions, I got goose bumps, but I also saw possible problems in the future. As an advocate, we're going to say, please do it. And we're going to hear, we don't have the money for it. Both sides are right. I could go on for hours. I'm going to let it go

. >> J .R. HARDING: Thank you, sir, a ny questions or comments from

members of the board? Hearing none, well done. As chair of this transportation committee and a memb er of the access board, I'd like to say thank you to Chicago. Really, your thoughtful, salient points of view, your passion, and your advocacy will help us guide and develop a better rule. Remember, we're taking comments for literally another 60 days

all the way into November. So please get your family, your friends, your experts, your scientists and other advocates to send thoughts because without your input, we can't build a better mousetrap. So thank you all today.