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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 + + + + +

 NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD MEETING

 + + + + +

 TUESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2014

 + + + + +

 The National Organic Standards

Board met in Grand Ballroom B, Galt House

Hotel, 140 N. 4th Street, Louisville,

Kentucky, at 8:34 a.m, Jean Richardson,

Chairperson, presiding.

PRESENT

JEAN RICHARDSON, Chairperson

JOHN FOSTER, Vice Chairperson

MAC STONE, Secretary

HAROLD AUSTIN

CARMELA BECK

COLEHOUR BONDERA

JOE DICKSON

TRACY FAVRE

JAY FELDMAN

WENDY FULWIDER

NICK MARAVELL

ZEA SONNABEND

JENNIFER TAYLOR

FRANCIS THICKE

C. REUBEN WALKER
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STAFF

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee

 Specialist

REX BARNES, Agricultural Marketing Service 

 Associate Deputy Administrator

LISA BRINES, NOP National List Manager

EMILY BROWN ROSEN, AMS NOP Specialist,

 Standards Division

MILES McEVOY, AMS NOP Deputy Administrator

BETSY RAKOLA, USDA Organic Policy Advisor

CARRIE RICCI, Office of General Counsel

SAM JONES, Public Affairs
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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Call to Order. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5

 Miles McEvoy

 Deputy Administrator

 Agricultural Marketing Service

 Designated Federal Officer

 National Organic Standards Board

Opening Remarks. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5

 Rex Barnes

 Associate Deputy Administrator

 Agricultural Marketing Service

 Jean Richardson. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6

 Chair

Introduction of NOP Staff. . . . . . . . . . . 6

 Miles McEvoy

 Deputy Administrator

 Agricultural Marketing Service

 Designated Federal Officer

 National Organic Standards Board

Introduction of NOSB Members . . . . . . . . . 9

Secretary's Report . . . . . . . . . . . . . .27

 Mac Stone

 Secretary of NOSB

 Approval of Minutes of San Antonio . . .27

 Meeting

NOP Report . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .27

 Miles McEvoy

 Deputy Administrator

 Agricultural Marketing Service

 Designated Federal Officer

 National Organic Standards Board

 Questions and Comments . . . . . . . . . . .69
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

 USDA Organic Action Plan . . . . . . . . . . .76

 Betsy Rakola

 USDA Organic Policy Advisor

 Questions and Comments . . . . . . . . . . 111

 Materials Update . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 115

 Lisa Brines

 NOP National List Manager

 Comments from the NOSB Chair . . . . . . . . 128

 Jean Richardson

 Chair 

 Comments from NOSB Members . . . . . . . . . 138

 Mac Stone 

 Secretary of NOSB

 Public Comments. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 139

 Declarations of Interest . . . . . . . . . . 437

 Comments from the NOSB Chair

 Jean Richardson

 Chair

 Materials Subcommittee . . . . . . . . . . . 441

 Calvin Walker

 Chair of the Subcommittee

 Topics:

 Proposal: Fall 2014 Research

 Priorities . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 442

 Discussion Document: Excluded

 Methods Terminology. . . . . . . . . . 459

 Discussion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 467
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 8:34 a.m.

3 MR. McEVOY: I am going to

4 introduce Rex Barnes, who is the Associate

5 Deputy Administrator at the Agricultural

6 Marketing Service.

7 MR. BARNES: Welcome, everybody,

8 to the Organic Standards Board meeting.

9 This is my first meeting that I

10 have been to. I have been around AMS for

11 many, many years, way longer than the National

12 Organic Program has been around AMS, but this

13 is the first time I have got an opportunity to

14 come to a meeting. And it is an honor to be

15 here and see everybody here. I have met a lot

16 of people and hope to meet some more during

17 the day today. I will be here for today, and

18 then, I have got to go back this evening.

19 But welcome. I am looking forward

20 to the meeting. I went through the briefing. 

21 You have got a lot of very technical issues

22 and stuff to go through. So, let's get it
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1 going, and I will turn everything over to

2 Jean. She can get the meeting started, so we

3 can get moving.

4 Thank you very much.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

6 much, Rex.

7 It is a pleasure to be here this

8 morning. I would like to turn the meeting

9 over to Deputy Administrator McEvoy for a few

10 minutes, so that he can introduce the members

11 of the NOP staff that are here today.

12 MR. McEVOY: Great. It is great

13 to be here in Louisville. We tried to get

14 here a year ago, but we had a little problem

15 with -- well, a little problem for all the

16 federal government for a while there. So, it

17 is really great to be here in Louisville and

18 with the National Organic Standards Board.

19 And we are here with a number of

20 people from USDA:

21 Myself, Deputy Administrator of

22 the National Organic Program and Designated
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1 Federal Officer for the National Organic

2 Standards Board.

3 We have Michelle Arsenault who

4 provides all the support for the National

5 Organic Standards Board. She does a yeoman's

6 job at keeping everything running, keeping the

7 Board informed, handling all the Subcommittee

8 meetings, all the logistics. She really does

9 an amazing job to keep the trains on the track

10 with the National Organic Standards Board. 

11 So, she deserves a lot of appreciation for

12 what she does for the organic community and

13 for this Board. So, that's Michelle. Give

14 her your thanks.

15 (Applause.)

16 We also have Emily Brown Rosen,

17 who is the primary technical support for the

18 National Organic Standards Board. She sits on

19 just about all the Subcommittee meetings and

20 provides them with technical support in a

21 whole variety of different ways of providing

22 that information that they need to be able to
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1 do their work in the Subcommittees. So, thank

2 you, Emily, for your work.

3 (Applause.)

4 At the back table here, we have

5 Lisa Brines, who is with the NOP Standards

6 Division. She is our National List Manager. 

7 So, she does all the work on the amendments to

8 the National List, supports the work on

9 technical reports. That is her primary there

10 in the Standards Division, is to manage that

11 National List, which takes quite a bit of

12 effort for the National Organic Program.

13 She also does a lot of other

14 standards-related activities as well. For

15 instance, she sits on or attends the CODEX

16 meetings on labeling. She just got back from

17 Rome, where she represented the National

18 Organic Program on Organic Labeling Issues at

19 CODEX. So, thank you, Lisa, for that service

20 in Rome.

21 We also have Carrie Ricci from the

22 Office of General Counsel here, who is here
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1 for the first time to observe the activities

2 of the National Organic Standards Board to

3 support us.

4 Then, at the front table we have

5 Betsy Rakola, who is the new USDA Organic

6 Policy Advisor. She will be giving a

7 presentation on all the activities at USDA

8 regarding organic agriculture later this

9 morning.

10 And then, we have, next to her,

11 Sam Jones, who is with the AMS Public Affairs

12 Office. So, any questions from the media or

13 others, Sam can help you out there. So, he is

14 the person to go to. He has a lot of great

15 information.

16 And I think that's it. So,

17 thanks, Jean.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So, I will

19 introduce myself last. But the next thing I

20 would like to do is to just quickly go around

21 the Board and have each of them say a couple

22 of words about themselves. So that you all
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1 know who is up here on the NOSB. And I would

2 like to start with Colehour.

3 MEMBER BONDERA: Okay, thank you.

4 My name is Colehour Bondera. I am

5 a small-scale farmer, organic farmer, in the

6 State of Hawaii. I wasn't really thinking

7 very hard through what I might say to you all

8 at the get-go here.

9 But good morning. And I think,

10 realistically, my approach to this whole topic

11 is we are all part of the same family and we

12 all need to work together.

13 So, thank you.

14 MEMBER MARAVELL: Nick Maravell,

15 organic farmer from Maryland. Started out in

16 vegetables. Now I'm crop and livestock.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And you should

18 read the overheads as well, because you see he

19 featured on Dr. Oz last year.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MEMBER WALKER: Good morning.

22 My name is Calvin Reuben Walker. 
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1 I serve as Chair of the Department of

2 Agricultural Sciences and Urban Forestry at

3 Southern University.

4 And for those of you who do not

5 know, Southern University is one of 19 HBCU

6 universities, Historically-Black Land Grant

7 Universities. It was created by the second

8 Morrill Act. Oregon State is what we call it,

9 1862.

10 So, Dr. Tucker and I are part of

11 the 1890 institutions. We were created 32

12 years later to do agricultural teaching,

13 research, and extension. And next year will

14 mark the 125th anniversary of the 1890s, and

15 we appreciate and hope that stakeholders will

16 look at these 1890 and '62's in terms of

17 agricultural research, teaching, and we are

18 trying to move along with organics.

19 And I would like to say an

20 appreciation to Ms. Liana Hoodes. She will be

21 moving on from the National Organic Coalition.

22 I am on the Board to represent the
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1 consumer interests.

2 And we would also like to say a

3 prayer for Mr. Dave Will. He mentioned to me

4 that his wife was ill; he would probably not

5 be able to make this meeting. So, we have Mr.

6 Dave Will's wife in our prayers.

7 And also, I would just like to say

8 that we appreciate Secretary Vilsack. I know

9 that I do because he believes in diversity. 

10 And personally, from what I see, I think he is

11 doing a yeoman's job. I just hope that we

12 will do all we can to support the Secretary as

13 well as the NOP.

14 And also, I just happen to serve

15 as the Materials Subcommittee Chair.

16 C'est tout.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: Hi. I'm Zea

18 Sonnabend, a small farmer from Fruitilicious

19 Farm in Watsonville, California. I hold the

20 scientist's seat on the Board, largely because

21 a majority of my career spent in writing

22 organic standards with CCOF nationally and
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1 working with OMRI on materials review.

2 MEMBER FULWIDER: I'm Wendy

3 Fulwider, and I serve as a producer on the

4 Board. And I own an organic family farm in

5 Wisconsin. My son Cody is currently the

6 fourth generation operating on that farm. He

7 has a 60-cow organic dairy where the milk goes

8 to Organic Valley. We have 200 acres that are

9 organic, and we just added another 100 acres

10 to put in transition. We have been very

11 fortunate; people want their land to be

12 managed organically. So, they do come to us

13 and ask us to run their land. The transition

14 acres we usually do in direct marketing, and

15 that supports our grass-finished beef and

16 pastured pork.

17 And as you know, I have a PhD in

18 animal behavior that I earned with Temple

19 Grandin. And so, that has allowed me to work

20 as a Farm Animal Care Specialist at Global

21 Animal Partnership and previously with Organic

22 Valley.
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1 MEMBER AUSTIN: Good morning.

2 My name is Harold Austin. I am

3 with Zirkle Fruit Company out of the State of

4 Washington. We are a producer/handler of

5 organic apples, cherries, blueberries, and

6 wine grapes.

7 I was born and raised on an apple

8 farm in the Pacific Northwest. I spent a lot

9 of time on my grandfather's dairy farm.

10 For Zirkle, I manage all of our

11 organic compliance from the production side of

12 it and the handling side of it as well. I

13 have been a Certified Test Consultant for in

14 excess of 35 years. At this juncture, I am

15 very involved in integrated pest management

16 and, also, organic production as well, for a

17 number of years with a lot of different

18 growers that I helped move into that arena.

19 I serve on the Crops Subcommittee,

20 the CACS Committee, and then, I chair the

21 Handling Subcommittee.

22 For me, it is honor to sit on this
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1 Board with my colleagues. We come from a very

2 broad spectrum of what we believe in,

3 representing a lot of different organic

4 stakeholders out of the organic community. We

5 may not always agree on the issues, but we

6 have some very robust conversations along the

7 way. And at the end of the day, there is not

8 a one of us that sits up here at this table

9 that doesn't have the best of the organic

10 industry and the organic community in their

11 hearts and in their desires.

12 And I applaud the energy, the

13 passion, and the camaraderie, but most of all

14 the dedication. There is a lot of time and

15 energy that goes into serving on this Board. 

16 We are a volunteer Board appointed by

17 Secretary Vilsack.

18 And I am not sure if some of you

19 understand the time commitment that does come

20 with sitting on this Board. It is a lot, but

21 I am glad I am here. And hopefully, at the

22 end of the day we have done a lot of good for
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1 the organic community.

2 Thank you.

3 MEMBER FELDMAN: Good morning.

4 I am Jay Feldman. I sit on one of

5 the environmentalist slots on the Board. I

6 got involved with pesticides back in the

7 seventies, collaborating with EPA. Traveled

8 across the country and met with farm workers

9 and small farmers talking about their adverse

10 reactions to pesticides, which led to the

11 creation of the worker protection standard at

12 EPA.

13 But it became obvious at that time

14 that, unless we were advancing alternatives,

15 that we would be on this treadmill. And so,

16 I got very heavily involved in the writing of

17 the Organic Farming Act and, then, the

18 Agricultural Productivity Act, which started

19 the LISA Program, the Low Input Sustainable

20 Act Program, at USDA, which, then, became

21 SARE, as you all know.

22 And then, of course, with many of
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1 the folks in this room, we all wrote the

2 Organic Foods Production Act, which to this

3 day retains the highest, I believe, core

4 environmental public health/food safety values

5 of any statute perhaps in the world.

6 So, this is a very meaningful, as

7 Harold has said, this is a meaningful endeavor

8 for all of us in this room. And I have been

9 honored to serve on the Board with all my

10 colleagues up here for the past five years,

11 and we will talk more about that later in the

12 meeting.

13 Thank you.

14 MEMBER STONE: Good morning.

15 My name is Mac Stone. I am the

16 certifier rep to the Board. A shoutout to

17 certifiers. Those of you that have not gone

18 through the certification process or continue

19 to be part of the certification process, the

20 due diligence that certifiers do on behalf of

21 the seal that we all represent here is just a

22 tremendous amount of work.
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1 And frankly, as an organic farmer,

2 and with my wife and her family farm about

3 hour east of here, we have about 150 acres

4 certified organic. Do vegetables, beef,

5 poultry for the direct market in the Lexington

6 area, and we are now moving into the

7 Louisville area.

8 So, I want to welcome you all to

9 Louisville. As your host, the Chamber of

10 Commerce always has really nice weather when

11 you get here, and then, it gets really crappy,

12 so you will leave at the end of the meeting.

13 (Laughter.)

14 But welcome. If there is anything

15 I can do or help assist you in moving around

16 Louisville the next few days, let me know.

17 Thanks.

18 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Good morning.

19 My name is John Foster. I'm one

20 of the two handling representatives on the

21 Board. This is my last public meeting of an

22 almost five-year term now.
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1 I currently serve as the Vice

2 Chair. I have served as the Chair of both the

3 Crops and the Handling Committees over the

4 years.

5 My day job is Director of

6 Compliance at Earthbound Farm. I have been

7 there a little over seven years. The group

8 that I am responsible for maintains the

9 integrity around organic issues, food safety

10 issues, and quality issues of our supply

11 chain. And we actively monitor roughly 450

12 suppliers that feed into our organization.

13 In the past I have been an

14 environment studies and literature major,

15 horticulture crop production.

16 I have done a little painting over

17 the years. Thank you, Jean, for including

18 that.

19 (Laughter.)

20 And one of my favorite professions

21 I have had over the years is being an organic

22 inspector, somewhere, give or take, around
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1 1,000 inspections over 12 years. And that was

2 really where I got to know a lot of you,

3 actually, in the gallery.

4 And it remains one of my favorite. 

5 One of the most meaningful things I have ever

6 done is being the boots on the ground and

7 seeing the hard work that goes in to grow all

8 the crops, to get them to market, to sell the

9 crops. It takes a whole chain to do it, an

10 unbelievable amount of work and an

11 unbelievable amount of cooperation. So, I

12 have been very honored to be part of this

13 evolving system that we have.

14 Thank you.

15 MEMBER DICKSON: Good morning.

16 My name is Joe Dickson. I am the

17 lonely one retail representative on the

18 National Organic Standards Board. A shoutout

19 to all the retailers out there.

20 I have worked continuously as a

21 grocery retailer since my parents made me go

22 out and get a summer job when I was 14 years
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1 old. I bagged groceries that summer, and I

2 have since that year worked in some form at a

3 grocery store.

4 I have developed a very deep

5 interest in the power that food labels have in

6 the marketplace, how food is sold and marketed

7 to consumers, and how standards like the one

8 that we are working on here can allow people

9 to express their beliefs and their ethics

10 through the food they buy.

11 I work currently as the Senior

12 Global Quality Standards Coordinator at Whole

13 Foods Market. I lead a small team there that

14 is responsible for developing standards and

15 policies that determine what products we sell

16 in our stores.

17 I also oversee our status as a

18 Certified Organic Retailer, which includes the

19 inspection and certification of over 390 of

20 our stores in North America.

21 I serve on the Texas Department of

22 Agriculture's Organic Industry Advisory
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1 Committee. And as of this year, I own a small

2 family farm in Bastrop County, Texas.

3 I serve on the Handling,

4 Livestock, and CACC Subcommittees.

5 And it is a pretty much

6 indescribable honor to sit at this table with

7 this group of thoughtful and amazing people

8 and to be in this room with this organic

9 community. And I am very grateful to be here.

10 MEMBER FAVRE: Good morning.

11 My name is Tracy Favre. I sit in

12 one of the environmentalist positions on the

13 Board.

14 I am from the great State of Texas

15 and have a small family diversified farm in

16 north central Texas, just southwest of Fort

17 Worth, and including livestock and crops.

18 I previously cut my teeth in

19 sustainable agriculture, working for holistic

20 Management International out of Albuquerque,

21 training farmers and ranchers on sustainable

22 farm and ranch management.
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1 I have recently completed IOIA

2 training to become an Organic Livestock

3 Inspector.

4 And I am happy to be here. Thank

5 you.

6 MEMBER BONDERA: Good morning,

7 everyone.

8 I am kind of in the back. I am

9 from Watsonville, California. I work for

10 Driscoll Strawberry Associates. We are an

11 international distributor of conventional and

12 organic strawberries, raspberries,

13 blackberries, and blueberries. I have been

14 with the company a little over seven-and-a15 half years and manage the Organic Compliance

16 Program. So, I work with upwards of 80

17 organic growers in the U.S., Mexico, and

18 Chile. It is from our nursery certification

19 to our grower certification and to our

20 handlers.

21 I think it is really important to

22 note that we work with independent family
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1 farmers, and I feel blessed to say that I know

2 all of our farmers and have personal

3 relationships with them. And that makes me

4 happy. That makes me happy to do this work.

5 And similar to my other colleagues

6 here, I find it, I call it a blessing to be a

7 part of this. It is challenging, but it is

8 also very rewarding. And I am grateful to the

9 community of people who have come year after

10 year to these meetings to improve the organic

11 standard.

12 Okay, thank you.

13 MEMBER THICKE: I am Francis

14 Thicke. I am an organic, grass-based dairy

15 farmer in southeast Iowa. I am in an

16 environmentalist position here, actually.

17 I began farming organically in

18 1975, actually, and then, took a little detour

19 and became a dirt scientist and worked for U

20 USDA for a while. And now, I am a born-again

21 farmer.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And you should
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1 notice he is a trumpet player and he might do

2 that sometime when we are having a meeting. 

3 So, don't be surprised.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MEMBER TAYLOR: Good morning.

6 I am Jennifer Taylor. I am from

7 Florida A&M University in Tallahassee.

8 I want you to know that this is a

9 great honor to serve as a member of the

10 National Organic Standards Board. And on the

11 Board, my role is to serve as an advocate for

12 the consumer and for public interest.

13 We appreciate your written

14 comments and your public comments. We need

15 your strong comments and interactions to help

16 keep organic standards strong, to ensure the

17 integrity of organic farms, organic produce,

18 organic products, and the actual organic food

19 on your table.

20 Thank you so much for this

21 opportunity.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.
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1 And then, back to me as Chair. I

2 am Jean Richardson. I am a Professor Emerita

3 of environmental studies and environmental law

4 from the University of Vermont.

5 I live in Vermont. I help my kids

6 on their organic maple syrup production

7 enterprise. Being from Vermont, that is

8 pretty much what you have to do. Every tree

9 in Vermont is tapped. It is a sugar maple. 

10 You should know that.

11 Let's see, I have done inspections

12 for the last 14 days, probably done about

13 1,000 inspections also, like John, in every

14 aspect of inspection from processing to cows

15 to zucchini.

16 And let's see. Oh, yes, one of

17 the things that I am going to be trying to do

18 is to encourage all the Board members, well

19 those that are not leaving, to be sure that

20 they have, in fact, shadowed, been on a few

21 inspections. And I am going to be asking the

22 new people coming in if they would also go
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1 shadow some inspections, so they could

2 understand boots on the ground what it is like

3 when we make some of the decisions that we do

4 on the NOSB.

5 Okay. So, that is all the Board. 

6 So now, the next item on the agenda is to take

7 the Secretary's report. I will turn that over

8 to Mac, please.

9 MEMBER STONE: And we are to

10 approve the minutes from the meeting that was

11 in San Antonio in the spring. Those were sent

12 to everyone on the Board. Are there any

13 changes or anything we need to address, as

14 they were submitted?

15 (No response.)

16 Seeing none, Madam Chair, I ask

17 for a vote to approve.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any objections?

19 (No response.)

20 So approved.

21 The next item on the agenda will

22 be a presentation by Deputy Administrator
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1 McEvoy abut the updates to the National

2 Organic Program.

3 MR. McEVOY: Okay. Good morning.

4 So, this is what we do at every

5 NOSB meeting, give a report of all things

6 happening at the National Organic Program, and

7 there are many things that we are up to. So,

8 I am going to give you a little tour of some

9 of the activities that we are up at the

10 National Organic Program.

11 Next slide. Oh, I have control

12 here. Let's see. Okay.

13 So, the mission of the National

14 Organic Program is to ensure the integrity of

15 USDA organic products in the United States and

16 throughout the world. It is a global program. 

17 So, we are certifying operations under the

18 USDA organic standards in more than 100

19 countries, 133 countries I think. So, there

20 are a lot of activities that we do throughout

21 the world to ensure that integrity of the

22 system from the farm to the market.
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1 Our vision is organic integrity

2 from farm to table. Consumers trust the

3 organic label. So, those standards are

4 important to verify at all levels of the

5 production and distribution. And our core

6 role is to implement the Organic Foods

7 Production Act and the USDA organic

8 regulations.

9 So, the USDA organic regulations

10 are very comprehensive. They include

11 standards for crops, livestock handling, wild

12 crops, labeling requirements, certification

13 requirements, accreditation, and the National

14 List. So, it is a very comprehensive list of

15 regulations, and this National Organic

16 Standards Board looks at those things and

17 provides us with recommendations around those

18 standards. A lot of focus on the National

19 List, but there is a lot more to organic

20 production and handling than just the National

21 List, and those are very important components

22 of this whole system that we also need to pay
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1 close attention to.

2 Accreditation and oversight is the

3 other very important component of our work. 

4 There are over 80 authorized certifying agents

5 worldwide, from the very small in particular

6 counties in California to certifiers that are

7 certifying in more than 50 countries and

8 thousands of operations. It is over 25,000

9 certified organization operations in the

10 world, over 18,000 in the U.S. and the rest

11 overseas.

12 Compliance and enforcement is a

13 very critical part of our work. So, we handle

14 complaints, do investigations, impose civil

15 penalties, and deal with the appeals process.

16 And then, of course, our support

17 for the National Organic Standards Board,

18 supporting their work, looking at their

19 recommendations, and implementing them as

20 appropriate.

21 So, some quick facts about the

22 National Organic Program. We are up to 43
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1 employees now. If you have been following

2 along for the last -- when I got here five

3 years ago, I started with 14 employees. So,

4 there has been significant growth in the

5 staffing at the National Organic Program. 

6 There are three Divisions and the Office of

7 the Deputy Administrator.

8 Some of the new staff that we

9 brought on this year with our increased

10 funding was a Chief of Staff, who handles a

11 lot of the administrative aspects of the

12 National Organic Program, and the people that

13 provide administrative support.

14 We have a new Cost-Share Manager

15 with the reauthorization of the Cost-Share

16 Program. We have three new Compliance

17 Officers that help out with compliance and

18 enforcement.

19 We have three new Accreditation

20 Managers that are doing audits and dealing

21 with all the oversight of accredited

22 certifiers.
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1 We have a new Assistant Director

2 of the Accreditation and International

3 Activities Division, and we have some new

4 administrative staff.

5 We are adding additional staff as

6 well. So, by the time we report in the

7 spring, we should be up to about 50 staff

8 within the National Organic Program.

9 (Applause.)

10 Okay, great.

11 Hiring at the federal government

12 is a very slow process, but we have really

13 brought on some really excellent staff to help

14 out with the mission of the program.

15 Our budget has changed in the last

16 few years. We were about $7 million in fiscal

17 year 2012, went down a little bit with the

18 sequestration for '13, and then, up to $9

19 million for last year's fiscal year budget. 

20 We are currently working under a Continuing

21 Resolution through December 11th, but that is

22 at basically the same level as the fiscal year
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1 2014 numbers.

2 Our Strategic Plan focuses on four

3 primary areas: clear standards, consumer

4 protection, market access, and information

5 technology.

6 So, the next number of slides I am

7 going to focus on those two parts, on clear

8 standards and consumer protection, which are

9 some of the core parts of our Strategic Plan.

10 So, we have what we call the 10

11 points of organic integrity. They include

12 clear enforceable standards; communication

13 about those standards, so people know what

14 those standards are and where there are

15 changes to the standards; transparency in

16 terms of the process, trying to provide as

17 much information about the standards and the

18 process to change the standards; certification

19 as a core part of organic integrity, kind of

20 the heart and soul of the whole system; a

21 complaint system that is effective; a penalty

22 system that has real penalties for serious
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1 violations to the standards; market

2 surveillance, so we can see how the labels are

3 being used in the marketplace; unannounced

4 inspections, so that there are times when a

5 certified operation does not know that they

6 are going to get inspected. So, that is part

7 of the process. Periodic residue testing as

8 a part of the overall system, and then, a core

9 organic value of continual improvement. We

10 are always looking at, okay, how is the system

11 working; how could we make improvements. So,

12 for each of these points, I am going to go

13 into a little more detail and talk about some

14 of our current activities.

15 For clear and enforceable

16 standards, we want to publish clear standards,

17 so people understand what the rules are. If

18 they understand what the requirements are, it

19 is much easier for producers and handlers to

20 comply. We want to address those gray areas,

21 and we have quite a number of gray areas under

22 the organic regulations, so we have to provide
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1 clarity and consistency there, and continue to

2 collaborate with the National Organic

3 Standards Board on addressing those gray areas

4 and providing clear standards to the organic

5 community, and also, implementing the NOSB

6 recommendations, which is very important.

7 Some of the things that we have

8 done over the last year on clear and

9 enforceable standards:

10 We have worked very closely with

11 FDA on their proposed produce food safety

12 rules and how they interplay with organic

13 standards. And so, FDA came out with their

14 new proposed produce food safety rules fairly

15 recently. And I think a lot of people can see

16 that they are much more reasonable for the

17 organic producers. And there's a lot of

18 people in this room that did a lot of work to

19 work with FDA, but you can know that at USDA

20 we also work with FDA to get them the input

21 they needed to come out with a new proposed

22 food safety rule.
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1 We also put out an instruction on

2 the use of brand or company names containing

3 the word "organic". This is the policy that

4 the Compliance and Enforcement Division has

5 been using for a number of years in terms of

6 the use of the word "organic" in brand or

7 company names.

8 So, this provides clarification to

9 the industry of what is expected in terms of

10 the use of organic on labels; provides

11 instructions to certifiers on how they need to

12 evaluate labels that they are approving, so

13 that there is a consistency in terms of the

14 use of the word "organic" on organic, 100

15 percent organic, and made with organic,

16 certified organic products.

17 We also put out final guidance on

18 made with organic labeling. So, that provides

19 more specificity, more information about the

20 appropriate labeling for the product category

21 of made with organic ingredients or specified

22 food groups.
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1 So, some of our priorities for

2 2015. We have some things in clearance. The

3 process of getting a rule to publication is a

4 very long and twisted route. I like to break

5 it up into four basic steps.

6 The first step is for the program

7 or the agency to draft the rules. The second

8 step is for those rules to be reviewed by the

9 Office of General Counsel and get cleared by

10 the Office of General Counsels. The third

11 step is departmental clearance where it goes

12 through the halls of USDA and gets approved by

13 a variety of different offices at USDA. And

14 then, the fourth step, if it is a significant

15 rule, is to get reviewed and cleared by the

16 OMB, the Office of Management and Budget. So,

17 it is a long process. Each of those steps can

18 take many, many months.

19 So, I am happy to report on origin

20 of livestock. For that proposed rule, it is

21 in departmental clearance, and we are hoping

22 to get that off to the Office of Management
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1 and Budget later this year. So, Office of

2 Management and Budget is about a 90-day review

3 cycle, sometimes longer. So, we are really

4 hoping that the origin of livestock proposed

5 rule will be published sometime in the early

6 spring of next year.

7 The aquaculture proposed rule is a

8 little bit further behind. It is still in

9 that second step of OGC review or Office of

10 General Counsel review. So, it has to

11 complete that review, and then, it will start

12 departmental clearance.

13 The pet food proposed rule is also

14 under review by the Office of General Counsel.

15 So, those still have quite a ways

16 to go, but we are hoping to get those, both of

17 those proposed rules published in 2015.

18 Other rules that are in progress,

19 meaning that they are not quite as far along

20 in the process, are a proposed rule on sodium

21 nitrate, which is taking a recommendation from

22 the National Organic Standards Board from
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1 2011, '10 possibly. So, that one has been a

2 little bit difficult for us, but we are hoping

3 to get a proposed rule out on that this coming

4 year.

5 Animal welfare, where we put a

6 whole team together that is working on animal

7 welfare. We are making a lot of progress on

8 that.

9 Any proposed rule has a number of

10 different sections. There is the background

11 section, the regulator impact section, and the

12 regulatory text section. So, there's actually

13 more sections than that, but that is just an

14 oversimplification of some of those sections.

15 And so, we have made a lot of

16 progress on the regulatory section and the

17 background section. We are still working on

18 the regulatory impact section, but we hope to

19 have that all completed and off to the Office

20 of General Counsel by the end of the year. 

21 So, we are putting a lot of focus on animal

22 welfare to, hopefully, move that out and get
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1 that published next year.

2 Aquaculture is also in progress. 

3 That rule has been written and potentially

4 could get published next year.

5 Other standards projects that we

6 are working on:

7 We will have Final Guidance on

8 classification of materials. The Draft

9 Guidance on that came out a while ago, as well

10 as the materials for organic crop production. 

11 So, both of those should go into final

12 guidance sometime potentially by the end of

13 the year or early next year.

14 And then, post-harvest handling,

15 the Final Guidance on that should be out

16 within the next six months.

17 We are working on a number of

18 Draft Guidances and policy. We are working on

19 a Draft Guidance for responding to pesticide

20 drift. With the residue testing requirements

21 now that certifiers have to do, there are some

22 questions on what happens when drift occurs on
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1 a certified organic farm. So, we want to

2 provide more guidance and consistency in terms

3 of how that works.

4 Nanotechnology was a

5 recommendation from the National Organic

6 Standards Board from a few years back. We

7 have a policy memo clarification that is

8 currently in clearance. That should be

9 published sometime within the next six months,

10 I should say.

11 I hear Melissa's voice in my head

12 of, "Don't say things are going to be

13 published right away, even though they might

14 be."

15 So, nanotechnology, in terms of

16 that, nanotechnology materials are considered

17 synthetic materials. So, they are not allowed

18 under the USDA organic regulations. We are in

19 the process of clarifying that in a policy

20 memo that should be out within the next six

21 months.

22 We continue to work on material
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1 clarifications, when we have one certifier and

2 another certifier or material review

3 organization that have different

4 interpretations of the rules in terms of what

5 is allowed under the organic standards. So,

6 we have that process that we continue to

7 provide more clarification to certifiers and

8 the organic industry about the allowances.

9 We have put out, for instance,

10 clarifications on electrolyzed water and,

11 let's see, a couple of other things. Emily

12 would remember.

13 We are also looking at publishing

14 Draft Guidance on materials for organic

15 livestock production sometime in the

16 relatively-near future.

17 So, lots of different standards18 related projects that we are working on.

19 In terms of communication, there's

20 a lot of things that we do to communicate

21 about the activities at the National Organic

22 Program and really organic things in general
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1 at USDA.

2 We have the Organic Literacy

3 Initiative that Betsy Rakola will talk more

4 about, which a lot of USDA staff have taken

5 that literacy initiative.

6 We have the Organic Integrity

7 Newsletter. We have the NOP Organic Insider

8 to try to keep people informed of the

9 activities at USDA around organics. And we

10 also can at times provide information about

11 other activities in organics through the NOP

12 Organic Insider.

13 We have a number of fact sheets on

14 GMOs, which is a very popular labeling at

15 farmers' markets and sunset. So, there's a

16 lot of fact sheets that we provide, and we

17 will continue to expand on those fact sheets.

18 We have done a number of NOP

19 website improvements. There is actually a

20 major effort to change the website. So,

21 within the next few months, you will see that

22 the NOP website will be quite a bit different. 
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1 It might take a little while to get used to,

2 but, hopefully, it will be a lot more

3 accessible to find information through the

4 changes to the website.

5 We do a number of presentations

6 and conferences.

7 And on to transparency. So, we

8 have a list of certified operations. It now

9 includes an updated list of suspended and

10 revoked operations that is incorporated into

11 the list. That is a new feature for this

12 year. So, that is something.

13 We have been posting fraudulent

14 certificates for a period of time, especially

15 for foreign operations where we don't have the

16 same kind of enforcement authority as we have

17 in the U.S.

18 We publish certifiers' audits and

19 Corrective Action Reports. We publish all the

20 NOSB Subcommittee notes. And for this fiscal

21 year, we plan to post adverse actions. Those

22 are all our cease and desist notices, our
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1 settlements, and all those different types of

2 compliance actions. So, that is on our plan

3 to provide more information about the

4 activities at the National Organic Program.

5 In terms of certification, again,

6 that is the core business of -- the core

7 verification system is done through

8 certification under the organic regulations. 

9 So, we have to make sure that certification is

10 done in a quality manner, that there is a

11 quality system, quality inspectors, quality

12 reviewers; that the process works from start

13 to finish.

14 So, that includes organic system

15 plans, that they are thorough and complete;

16 that inspections include audits in terms of

17 reconciliation audits of sales and yields;

18 that they include feed audits at an organic

19 livestock operation; that the inspections

20 include inspections of non-organic areas of an

21 operation. If it is a split operation, that

22 is a component of certification.
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1 That there is timely followup by

2 the certifier, if they have findings during

3 the inspection, and that there is some time of

4 continual monitoring of the certified

5 operations. So, lots of things that

6 certifiers are required to do. We have to

7 make sure that that is actually occurring on

8 all the certifiers that are operating around

9 the world.

10 The Accreditation and

11 International Activities Division, they

12 oversee the work of more than 80 certifying

13 agents around the world. They are conducting

14 audits. Each certifier is audited at least

15 twice in a five-year period of time. Those

16 audits are about a week long. It kind of

17 depends upon the scope of that certifier of

18 how long the audit is. A certifier that is

19 operating in multiple countries has a much

20 longer audit than ones that are operating in

21 a smaller geographical area.

22 So, there are audit reports. 
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1 There is the review of those reports. There

2 is Notices of Non-Compliance that go out after

3 those reports are received in the office in

4 D.C. And then, we have to review the

5 corrective actions that the certifiers are

6 taking to correct the findings from those

7 audits.

8 Through all those audits that we

9 do, there's thousands of criteria that are

10 evaluated on a yearly basis. Certifiers are

11 complying with more than 95 percent of all the

12 accreditation criteria. So, they are doing an

13 excellent job. There is always room for

14 improvement, but it is really important that

15 we do those audits to make sure that they are

16 continuing to meet the requirements.

17 Moving on to complaints, the

18 complaint pie has changed over the last few

19 years. If you recall, it used to be about a

20 split of 50/50 between complaints for

21 certified versus uncertified operations. Now

22 we have two-thirds of the complaints that we
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1 receive are for uncertified operations. It

2 looks like 20 percent are for allegations of

3 labeling violations or fraud. And then, 14

4 percent for complaints about the use of

5 prohibited substances or methods.

6 In last fiscal year, which ended

7 on September 30th, we closed 285 complaint

8 investigations. So, it is very important for

9 us to do these investigations and both find

10 violations or confirm violations and take

11 enforcement actions. It is also very

12 important that for a number of complaints

13 there is no violation. So, it sort of clears

14 the air, that there can be an allegation, but

15 we have to determine whether or not there is

16 actually any violation.

17 We did receive a record number of

18 complaints last year, over 400 complaints,

19 which is a new record. That is almost three

20 times the amount of complaints that we got

21 when I first started five years ago. So, the

22 number of complaints is increasing. I think
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1 that is a good thing. That means that people

2 are out there. They know that there is this

3 method to file a complaint for potential

4 violations of the standards, but it is a lot

5 more work for us to do.

6 We initiated 162 initial

7 enforcement actions, 66 Notices of Warning, 29

8 Notices to Cease and Desist, and 54

9 investigation referrals. So, there is a lot

10 of work involved in compliance and

11 enforcement.

12 On to penalties, in last fiscal

13 year we levied nine civil penalties for

14 $81,000. We also had a significant ruling by

15 an administrative law judge. So, this does

16 not occur very often. But in the process

17 there is a long compliance and appeals process

18 that is possible to occur.

19 So, the first step is a certifier

20 to take action. The certifier is proposing

21 suspension or revocation. That can be

22 appealed. Then, there is an appeal decision
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1 made by the Administrator's Office. That

2 Administrator's decision on that appeal can be

3 appealed. And that appeal, then, requires us

4 to file a complaint. And that complaint,

5 then, goes to an administrative law judge at

6 USDA, that then handles that hearing.

7 We have only had two

8 administrative hearings in the history of the

9 National Organic Program. The first one was

10 Promiseland back in -- well, that took a few

11 years. And this is our second one. This

12 upheld the AMS decision to revoke the organic

13 certification of a Pennsylvania operation.

14 Now this is just still part of the

15 process. This operation has the opportunity

16 to appeal to the judicial officer and, after

17 that, potentially go to District Court. So,

18 these types of compliance actions do take a

19 significant amount of our resources and time

20 to go through that process, to provide people

21 with the due process for our compliance

22 actions.
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1 Market surveillance is something

2 that we would like to do more of, that we have

3 not done a lot of, but we think is very, very

4 important. In 2011, we did residue testing of

5 six organic commodities. The results of that

6 are on our website, of what we found.

7 We found that, for the most part,

8 these six organic commodities, I think about

9 half of them had residues, but those residues

10 were less than 5 percent of the EPA tolerance

11 level and not violative residues. There were

12 some problems that were identified.

13 We are doing some followup work on

14 that to, again, look at residues on organic

15 products, just to make sure that all organic

16 products meet organic systems. I think market

17 surveillance is really important for us to

18 expand our activities in this particular area.

19 Unannounced inspection, this is an

20 NOSB recommendation from 2011 for unannounced

21 inspections. We implemented that in, I think,

22 2013, where under Instruction 2609,
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1 unannounced inspections are now required by

2 certifiers, that at least 5 percent of the

3 certified operation have unannounced

4 inspection. So, this is where we are

5 implementing the NOSB recommendation. It has

6 been a requirement by certifiers since 2013.

7 Periodic residue testing, the

8 final rule was implemented in 2013. Again, it

9 is now a requirement for certifiers to do 5

10 percent of the operations that are tested each

11 year. It has led to enforcement actions for

12 violations of the organic standard. So, when

13 they are doing this sampling, for the most

14 part, things are in good standing, but,

15 occasionally, they do find residues that

16 require the certifier, then, to take

17 appropriate enforcement action.

18 And we have provided instructions

19 and training on responding to positive

20 residues on selecting labs and provided

21 targeted prohibited pesticides list for the

22 certifiers to utilize.
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1 In terms of continual improvement,

2 accreditation audits are part of that. As

3 part of the audits that we do as certifiers,

4 we evaluate all the auditors on a yearly basis

5 that are conducting the audits of the

6 certifiers. We also now have a system where

7 the certifiers can provide feedback to the

8 audits that are conducted. And then, every

9 year we review all the accreditation audits

10 that we conduct to look at what are the

11 trends; what are the parts of the organic

12 regulations that we are finding the most

13 problems with that we can provide more

14 training or assistance to certifiers.

15 We also conduct an internal audit

16 at the National Organic Program that is part

17 of our quality system. We do a management

18 review at the National Organic Program as part

19 of our quality system.

20 And then, we do peer review. Peer

21 review is required under the Organic Foods

22 Production Act, under 2117. The NOSB has made
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1 particular recommendations about peer review.

2 We have the National Institute of

3 Standards and Technology that conducted peer

4 review in 2011. We have the American National

5 Standards Institute that completed peer review

6 in 2014. We just published the results of

7 that peer review within the last few weeks.

8 And we are in the process of

9 drafting a peer review process that addresses

10 the NOSB recommendations and we are planning

11 on collaborating with the NOSB. So, this is

12 a topic that we hope to put on the NOSB agenda

13 for discussion for the spring meeting, is peer

14 review and how we are going to fully

15 implemented the peer review requirements.

16 Okay. So, that was a lot of

17 stuff, but now we are moving on.

18 The next parts are not quite as

19 long as that part on clear standards and

20 consumer protection. But, in terms of

21 strategic plan, we also are very interested in

22 market access. When we talk about market
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1 access, it is not just international market

2 access; it is also market access for producers

3 and handlers to get into their local and

4 regional markets as well.

5 Certification, we don't want

6 certification to be a barrier to success. We

7 want it to verify that the standards are being

8 met, but we want to make sure that

9 certification is not barrier to people getting

10 into organic production and handling.

11 In terms of international, we have

12 trade arrangements with several nationals to

13 facilitate the exchange of organic products

14 and provide market opportunities for organic

15 producers. We have a number of equivalency

16 arrangements. The first one was set up with

17 Canada in 2009 and is working quite well. The

18 second one was with the European Union, which

19 was launched in June of 2012.

20 And then, we had two equivalency

21 arrangements that became effective this year. 

22 The first one was with Japan, effective in
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1 January, and then, with South Korea, effective

2 in July. So, a lot of work goes into these

3 equivalency agreements.

4 We also have recognition

5 agreements where we recognize the governments

6 in India, Israel, and New Zealand to accredit

7 the certifiers operating in those countries. 

8 So, for instance, in New Zealand it is the New

9 Zealand Government that accredits the

10 certifiers operating in New Zealand. Those

11 certifiers operating in New Zealand are

12 certifying to the U.S. standards.

13 So, it is different than an

14 equivalency agreement where we are accepting

15 the foreign country's standard. In a

16 recognition agreement, the certifier is

17 certifying to the U.S. standard.

18 So, we work very closely with the

19 Foreign Ag Service and the U.S. Trade

20 Representative's Office on all of these

21 various agreements and arrangements. These

22 agreements are continually monitored. So, it
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1 is similar to our oversight of accredited

2 certifiers, where we are doing assessments of

3 these foreign government systems every two to

4 three years. So, the same kind of review

5 cycle where we are looking at their

6 accreditation system and their ability to

7 comply with the terms of those agreements.

8 In terms of market access for

9 people getting into local and regional

10 marketing, we have an initiative on sound and

11 sensible, where we want to ensure organic

12 integrity, but that it is done in a sound and

13 sensible manner, what we call certification

14 that is affordable, accessible, and attainable

15 for all operations, affordable meaning

16 reasonable fees and reasonable compliance

17 costs; accessible meaning that there are

18 certifiers and technical assistance that is

19 available throughout the U.S. And that is

20 really, I think, a key in certain areas. 

21 There is great resources available. And then,

22 other parts of the country there is not as
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1 many resources available for not just

2 certification but those technical resources to

3 be success in organic production and handling.

4 And then, also, attainable, so that the

5 standards are understandable, that they are

6 written in plain English, and with reasonable

7 recordkeeping requirements.

8 So, we have a number of projects

9 that we have started to fund at the end of

10 last fiscal year. Our purpose for the sound

11 and sensible certification projects was to

12 encourage the initiation and rollout of new

13 organic certification approaches, training,

14 and technical assistance to help with that

15 certification process. So, these projects

16 will help USDA and all certifiers develop and

17 implement sound and sensible processes and

18 provide training modules.

19 So, these projects are now in the

20 process of being implemented. Once they are

21 completed, the results of those projects will

22 be available to everybody.
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1 So, we made 14 awards to 13

2 organizations, a million and a half dollars

3 through these various sound and sensible

4 projects. They are available throughout the

5 U.S. There is a lot of diversity in terms of

6 the types of projects that have been funded: 

7 certification tools; training and outreach

8 tools; technology development; technical

9 assistance, and inspector mentoring.

10 The projects will be completed

11 over the next year, by September of next year. 

12 So, we should be able to provide more

13 specificity about the results of these

14 projects at the fall 2015 meeting.

15 Here is just a brief list of the

16 projects that were awarded to a variety of

17 certifiers and other organizations to do a

18 variety of these different projects. So, this

19 presentation will be available on our website

20 later, so you can look at this and the

21 specific projects.

22 Okay. Moving on to information
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1 technology, one of our popular tools that

2 people use is our list of certified organic

3 operations. This list is updated only once a

4 year by data that is provided by certifying

5 agents. It is out of date as soon as we

6 publish it. It is a flat spreadsheet format

7 with really poorly-structured, validated data

8 elements.

9 This is a big improvement from

10 five years ago when there was really no list,

11 but it still needs a lot of work. So, there

12 are a lot of constraints to our current

13 system. It is variable data on Excel sheets

14 from 80-plus certifiers. So, the information

15 we get from the various certifiers does not

16 come in in the same format. There's lots of

17 challenges with our current system.

18 So, we are in the process of

19 developing this organic integrity database. 

20 This is part of the 2014 farm bill, provided

21 $5 million in funding for technology

22 investments.
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1 And what we have done so far --

2 and this project is really just getting

3 started, we have hired a full-time IT Project

4 manager to start the process. She started in

5 August. We have convened a certifier user

6 group to be engaged throughout the development

7 period because certifiers are going to be key

8 to the success of this. There have to be

9 portals that work, so that certifiers can

10 provide that information on the data that they

11 have on the certified operations to this

12 master database. And then, we are in the

13 process of developing a list of key

14 requirements, project timeline, and

15 contracting strategy.

16 What we are planning to have in

17 this new system is to capture all the elements

18 in the current system; be able to track

19 operations and changes in their certification

20 status over time; enable the certifying agents

21 to update the data manually in batch uploads

22 or in real time. So, we have a lot of
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1 different types of certifiers out there that

2 have different technology capabilities, and we

3 need to provide a way for them to update that

4 information through different methodologies.

5 We have to have some kind of

6 permissions management to allow various levels

7 of viewing of the data; standard structured

8 fields for commodities; mapping capabilities

9 to locate operations; reporting capabilities

10 to support trend analysis and supply chain

11 research. And we are looking at an optional

12 way of having certificates generated from this

13 database.

14 So, we are in the very preliminary

15 stages of this. We are very excited about

16 this project. So, stay tuned as we continue

17 to develop this.

18 Moving on to the farm bill, and

19 Betsy Rakola will give more details on the

20 farm bill, but I will cover some of the NOP21 specific areas. We have, under the 2014 farm

22 bill, improved enforcement authority for NOP
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1 to conduct investigations. We have already

2 used our subpoena authority under that new

3 authority that we have under the 2014 farm

4 bill.

5 We have the $5 million upgrade for

6 technology and, then, for cost-share the

7 National Organic Certification Cost-Share

8 Program has been reauthorized. So, we have

9 gotten that program up and running. We just

10 recently sent direct mail to all the U.S.

11 certified organic operations. I heard this

12 morning that we might have had a little

13 challenge with some of the addresses, but we

14 will try to work that one out.

15 Okay. And then, on to the

16 National Organic Standards Board, I just

17 briefly wanted to make a couple of comments

18 about the National Organic Standards Board

19 and, then, I will wrap it up.

20 So, we had a listening session on

21 October 16th, where we held a telephone and

22 online listening session about the National
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1 Organic Standards Board. I opened that

2 session with a presentation about the National

3 Organic Standards Board. I specifically

4 requested input on what parts of the NOSB

5 process is working well and specific ideas on

6 how we could make further improvements to the

7 process.

8 We set up the call to allow each

9 commenter to provide three minutes of

10 comments. We expected lots of commenters. 

11 So, that is why we had limited it to three

12 minutes and wanted to provide time for many

13 voices to be heard.

14 We had approximately 60 community

15 members that listened to the call and we

16 received 10 comments. Eight of the comments

17 expressed disapproval of the changes to the

18 sunset process and changes to the way that we 

19 have been working with the National Organic

20 Standards Board. One commenter supported the

21 sunset changes and one commenter had questions

22 about certification.
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1 Given the comments that we

2 received at the spring meeting, I was

3 surprised that we received so few comments at

4 this listening session. Now there could be a

5 lot of reasons why we received so few

6 comments. We got the notice out about a week

7 before the listening session. But,

8 nevertheless, we got only 10 comments. We had

9 reserved two hours for the listening session,

10 but we ended the call after 45 minutes because

11 there were no additional commenters.

12 So, my takeaway on the listening

13 session is that there is strong opposition to

14 the changes to the sunset process. Some

15 organizations believe that the changes do not

16 align with the Organic Foods Production Act

17 and are not in the best interest of consumers

18 or the organic community. In addition, some

19 expressed concern about the authority or the

20 independence of the National Organic Standards

21 Board.

22 I would also say that in my
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1 travels, my communication with people in the

2 organic community over the last year, that I

3 have heard that a number of people are not

4 willing to speak out about some of the

5 controversial organic topics. There is a

6 climate of intimidation, where individuals

7 fear that they might be attacked for

8 expressing certain opinions.

9 I have spoken to many organic

10 community members that agree with the changes

11 that we have made to the sunset process and

12 what we are doing at the National Organic

13 Standards Board, but they are not willing to

14 speak up about it.

15 Many organic community members are

16 busy farming and marketing. Most of their

17 concerns in terms of when I talk to them are

18 about weed control, soil management, and

19 livestock health. They are dealing with some

20 very difficult issues around drought and other

21 environmental stresses. I hear a lot about

22 GMO contamination and consistency about the
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1 certification process and rules.

2 So, we have a lot of work to do. 

3 There are hundreds of thousands of people that

4 work in organic agriculture and trade in the

5 U.S. alone. There are millions of consumers

6 that buy organic products and have confidence

7 in the USDA organic seal.

8 We are a very passionate bunch

9 from a diversity of backgrounds and

10 experience. I hope we can embrace our

11 collective diversity, continue to have

12 spirited debates about organic standards and

13 policy, and celebrate organics from the small

14 farm to the large corporation, from the local

15 markets to international trade, all efforts

16 that help to make the planet more sustainable

17 for people and the environment.

18 So, I think we need to have these

19 deep discussions and debates. And at the end

20 of the day, hopefully, we can all remember

21 that we are all part of the same movement, the

22 same organic community, to try to make the
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1 world better for organic agriculture.

2 And with that, I want to thank the

3 service of a few of the National Organic

4 Standards Board members which this is their

5 last meeting. Joe Dickson, Jay Feldman, John

6 Foster, and Wendy Fulwider, thank you so much.

7 I brought up a picture of our

8 discussions about five years ago about corn

9 steep liquor. I just thought you would just

10 want to relive that moment.

11 (Laughter.)

12 Yes, so we still have some very

13 good debates. Five years ago it was corn

14 steep liquor, and now I don't know; we will

15 see at this meeting what will be the big issue

16 for this meeting.

17 (Laughter.)

18 But that was a lot of fun. It is

19 kind of interesting to see the setup there in

20 that photo where we are a lot more, I guess,

21 technologically sophisticated now than we were

22 five years ago. But that is Wisconsin five
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1 years ago.

2 So, thank you, all four of you,

3 for your service. It is really an incredible

4 honor for me to work with each of you. You

5 have provided so much to the organic

6 community, the countless hours that you

7 dedicate to developing proposals, listening

8 and reading public comment, and coming up with

9 the recommendations. You really deserve a lot

10 of respect, and thank you.

11 (Applause.)

12 Okay. So, thank you, Madam Chair.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

14 Miles.

15 Before we go on to our next

16 presentation, I would like to ask the members

17 of the Board, do you have any questions of

18 Miles on his report here this morning? 

19 Anything that is missing that you wanted to

20 hear about, any questions or concerns?

21 Yes, Francis?

22 MEMBER THICKE: Miles, what is
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1 your feeling on international integrity,

2 especially in countries where we don't have

3 agreements, like China and such?

4 MR. McEVOY: Yes, well, there's a

5 lot of countries that have organic production

6 and are providing organic products to the U.S. 

7 There's a lot of countries that their internal

8 organic market is also growing, that we are

9 exporting organic markets to.

10 The organic certification system

11 is the same here in the U.S. and in those

12 foreign countries under the direct

13 accreditation route that we have. So, for

14 instance, you mentioned China. There are

15 primarily four certifiers that operate in

16 China that certify to the U.S. organic

17 standards. So, they are complying with the

18 same requirements. They are audited by our

19 staff.

20 We have actually sent a couple of

21 teams. We sent a team on a month-long audit

22 in 2010 that we followed four products from
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1 the farm to the port. And then, we did a

2 followup in 2012.

3 So, we see that it is not really

4 any different there than in any other country

5 where you find some minor problems that need

6 to be addressed, as in any audit, but it is

7 the same certification system there as in the

8 U.S. or in countries that we have equivalency

9 arrangements with. But we need to continue to

10 monitor and ensure that that stays true.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold?

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: Miles, you know,

13 you mentioned the kind of dismal turnout for

14 the last listening session. Any thoughts,

15 looking ahead to future listening sessions,

16 and some potential ways to get some of those

17 other organic stakeholders, the producers, the

18 handlers, to participate in future calls?

19 MR. McEVOY: Well, we are going to

20 be doing a number of webinar listening

21 sessions on a number of other topics over the

22 next six months. And Betsy Rakola, the USDA
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1 Organic Policy Advisor, will talk about that.

2 I think that what we need to do is

3 probably earlier notification, make it well4 known that we are doing these sessions earlier

5 on, that that could help. And, yes, we have

6 to think about that to see how we could get

7 better, more participation. That would be

8 great.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jay?

10 MEMBER FELDMAN: Miles, thank you

11 for your presentation.

12 I would like to explore a little

13 bit just on this use of the word

14 "intimidation" because that is a pretty strong

15 word, and any thoughts you would have on how

16 to address that within the organic community.

17 Obviously, given the diversity of

18 knowledge around the table here and in the

19 audience and among the participants in

20 meetings like this, you have different

21 viewpoints. Everybody is encouraged to

22 express those viewpoints.
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1 Some may perceive the expression

2 of a viewpoint as intimidation, especially

3 when it may come from the consumer side, where

4 there might be an apparent threat that, you

5 know, if certain standards or expectations

6 aren't met, as written in the Policies and

7 Procedures Manual, we could lose market or we

8 could damage the seal, the USDA seal. Nobody

9 wants that.

10 And so, since you threw that word

11 out there, I am curious if you have any ideas

12 beyond the earlier notice of listening

13 sessions, and so forth, of how this community,

14 all the dedicated people in this room can feel

15 that they are expressing themselves without it

16 being characterized or being felt or received

17 as intimidation.

18 MR. McEVOY: Yes, well, I think

19 that people should -- I think it is really

20 important for us to recognize that there is

21 within the organic community those that are

22 feeling less willing to speak out. So, I
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1 think that should be a discussion that we

2 have. Why? Why is that happening?

3 But I think, on the other hand,

4 that the people that are not should speak up

5 and have their opinion heard. I think it is

6 really, really important for this community to

7 thrive, to have a robust and full discussion

8 with all the viewpoints expressed. So, I am

9 encouraging those that are feeling unwilling

10 to speak up to speak up. It is really

11 important that their voices are heard.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Calvin?

13 MEMBER WALKER: Miles, I had this

14 question I believe answered at the training

15 session, but I think it will be good to share

16 with the audience.

17 At universities we have what we

18 call program income. Any monies that we

19 collect goes back into the program. Could you

20 explain to us again monies from enforcement,

21 like the $81,000, you all are not able to use

22 that for NOP purposes?
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1 MR. McEVOY: Right. Money that is

2 collected on civil penalties just goes into

3 the Federal General Fund. That does not go

4 into the NOP or AMS budget, no.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well, if I may

6 ask a question, I get a lot of questions from

7 around the country when I go around wanting to

8 know, we all worked so hard for the farm bill;

9 what happened to the budget? And they want

10 more details and more information on the NOP

11 budget, how the money is distributed between

12 the various pieces of what you do.

13 And again, it is, in part, I would

14 like more information on that because there

15 are also people in the broader community that

16 express concern that there isn't that much

17 interest in organics at the USDA, and they

18 want to really know how is that money being

19 spent.

20 And I don't expect you to come up

21 with an answer at today's meeting. But I am

22 wondering if it would be possible for you to
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1 provide us all with some greater detail. You

2 know, you throw out little snippets of money

3 now and then, which is good. But I am really

4 interested in a broader understanding of how

5 our tax dollars are being spent on organics

6 through the NOP.

7 MR. McEVOY: So, yes, we can

8 certainly provide additional information about

9 how the NOP budget is being utilized, and we

10 can prepare additional information to share at

11 the spring meeting, if that would work.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other questions

13 from Board members?

14 (No response.)

15 So, our next presentation -- thank

16 you, Miles -- presentation is Betsy Rakola.

17 Yes, you come up to the podium. 

18 Great.

19 MS. RAKOLA: Good morning,

20 everyone. Thank you for allowing me the time

21 to speak.

22 I have been with the USDA for
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1 about four-and-a-half years now, but this is

2 the first time I have been to an NOSB meeting. 

3 So, it is nice to put a lot of faces with the

4 names that I have only seen over email and in

5 writing for all these years.

6 Wait just a moment for the

7 presentation to come up.

8 Well, I will just start giving an

9 overview of the topics I am going to talk

10 about.

11 So, I am the USDA Organic Policy

12 Advisor.

13 Great, here we go. Whoops. 

14 Sorry, I hit the wrong button there. Let me

15 go back. All right.

16 So, I just wanted to give an

17 overview of what that means, what my role is

18 at the USDA, and talk a little bit about how

19 we are updating our Organic Literacy

20 Initiative, give you an overview of the work

21 that the Organic Working Group does, and talk

22 about our plans for stakeholder engagement.
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1 And, Jean, by the time I am done,

2 I hope you will be able to tell people that

3 there is a lot of interest in organic at the

4 USDA, and more specifically, what it is we are

5 going about it.

6 So, I am the second USDA Organic

7 Policy Advisor. Many of you knew my

8 predecessor Mark Lipson. Mark left the USDA

9 last month at the end of his second appointed

10 term.

11 One of the changes with having me

12 onboard is that I am now in a permanent staff

13 position. While it is a bit of a

14 technicality, I think it is important to know

15 that that means that the Department has made

16 a permanent commitment to having a Policy

17 Advisor onboard to look at implementing the

18 work of organic agriculture across the USDA

19 for the long-term. And I think that is a

20 really big deal. It is a very exciting thing,

21 and it means that, regardless of who is

22 sitting in any political chair, my position
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1 will continue to exist, so that we always have

2 a high level of leadership on organic at the

3 Department.

4 I do sit quite close to the Office

5 of the Secretary. I have a weekly briefing

6 with the Secretary's Deputy Chief of Staff to

7 inform him about the work that we are doing. 

8 So, there is a lot of interest and engagement

9 on organic at the highest levels of the USDA

10 leadership.

11 One of the things that I do is to

12 coordinate the USDA Organic Working Group. 

13 This is a cross-departmental working group

14 that has representation from every single

15 agency at the USDA, participating to discuss

16 how we can coordinate the work that we do on

17 organic agriculture, how we can integrate it

18 more deeply into the day-to-day work of

19 agencies, regardless of whether or not they

20 have a specific farm bill program that works

21 on organic or if there are just ways that we

22 can understand how their programs might be
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1 tweaked or simply better explained, so that

2 they can work to serve the needs of organic

3 producers and handlers.

4 We have over the last couple of

5 years started to develop fiscal-year-specific

6 action plans, so that we can look at really

7 developing measurable impacts for the organic

8 community.

9 I am also responsible for

10 implementing the USDA's 2013 Departmental

11 Guidance on Organic Agriculture. So, I don't

12 know if folks are aware of this, but in May of

13 last year Secretary Vilsack issued guidance to

14 the entire Department instructing all of our

15 agencies to support the work of organic

16 agriculture and, again, to integrate it into

17 the day-to-day missions of their various

18 agencies, which has really given us that high19 level support that we need to have the

20 justification to be asking all of these

21 different groups to work with us on organic

22 and to make sure that it has a seat at the
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1 table and it is always a part of the

2 conversation.

3 I also participate on a number of

4 other interagency initiatives. Organic is, by

5 no means, the only one. So, I try to provide

6 the perspective of organic on the different

7 initiatives that the USDA has going on.

8 So, this ranges from the work that

9 Miles mentioned that we have been doing on the

10 implementation of the Food Safety

11 Modernization Act; coexistence, which is, of

12 course, a hot topic with concerns about

13 genetically-modified organisms, and it is an

14 area where there is genuine interest at the

15 USDA to try to find workable solutions for all

16 producers.

17 I sit on the leadership team of

18 the Know Your Farmer, Know Your Food Task

19 Force, and I also participate in the Climate

20 Change Initiatives and Beginning Farmers and

21 Ranchers. So, it is a lot of meetings, but

22 folks are aware that organic is important, and
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1 they are making sure to include us in the

2 conversation, which, again, is a very positive

3 thing.

4 So, Miles mentioned the USDA's

5 Organic Literacy Initiative. This is a series

6 of training and outreach materials that we

7 launched back in 2012, with the hope of trying

8 to provide some plain language resources on

9 what organic means and, also, a summary of how

10 the USDA supports it.

11 You can see those are some

12 snapshots up on the screen of the various

13 tools that we have. On the left are the

14 webinars that we have. We have been calling

15 them USDA Organic 101 and 201, our super16 short, 15-minute overview, and then, our

17 slightly-longer 30-minute, slightly more in18 depth overview for those who are interested in

19 more details on organic, as well as our

20 brochure that summarizes the different

21 programs and services that the USDA has, with

22 the hopes of helping people answer the
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1 question, is organic an option for me?

2 And then, we have a very detailed

3 Resource Guide that goes through all of our

4 programs and provides information on how

5 different agencies support organic, as well as

6 websites, and names, phone numbers, and

7 emails, because we know that what people often

8 really want is just to talk to a human being,

9 to get some answers to their questions.

10 We are currently in the process of

11 updating this initiative. These are just a

12 few more details on each one of these

13 resources.

14 And we have had a lot of success

15 so far. With our Organic 101 and 201

16 trainings, we have focused on really get them

17 out within the USDA, to make sure that our

18 staff know what organic is, that the USDA

19 supports it, and how to connect producers and

20 handlers with resources.

21 And it has been successful beyond

22 my wildest dreams. We have had over 30,000
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1 USDA employees complete this training online. 

2 We have about 100,000 employees at the USDA. 

3 So, you can do the math. It is a huge portion

4 of our workforce. So, people are much more

5 informed about organic than they were in the

6 past, and we are having a much better starting

7 point for our conversations of figuring out

8 how different agencies can support organic

9 producers and handlers.

10 We are currently in the process of

11 updating all of these materials to make sure

12 that they reflect the current that we are

13 doing and any changes that may have happened

14 in the most recent farm bill.

15 And we would really love feedback. 

16 If folks in the room are using these tools, we

17 would love to hear from you. Are they useful? 

18 Do they hit the high points? Are there things

19 that we are missing?

20 We have gotten a lot of

21 information out there, but we tend not to hear

22 much about how they are used and whether or
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1 not they are useful. So, if there are

2 thoughts about how these could be tweaked or

3 changed, we are in that process right now. 

4 So, it would be a great time to let me know

5 what you think.

6 So, we do have a new farm bill

7 finally. We are very excited about it. And

8 organic did quite well in the most recent farm

9 bill. So, several programs that had

10 previously been funded have now, again, gotten

11 funding. Some of those, like the Cost-Share

12 Program, got a lot more money than they had in

13 the past. The Cost-Share Program itself has

14 about doubled the annual budget that it used

15 to have.

16 And there is a lot of work that

17 has been going on to try to get the farm bill

18 implemented and off the ground. Since we did

19 get it midway through the year, it has been a

20 bit of a scramble, but things are underway and

21 we are getting, hopefully, back to normal with

22 a lot of these programs.
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1 The Organic Research and Extension

2 Initiative is now funded again and has been

3 tweaked a bit to include educational

4 activities as a new category of eligible

5 projects. Previously, it was only focused on

6 research or extension. Now you can actually

7 submit a proposal whose primary purpose is to

8 do outreach and education.

9 That is another thing I think is

10 very exciting, and I hope that people

11 recognize, because it does open the door to

12 something that is really needed to provide,

13 again, that one-on-one personal touch to work

14 with our organic producers and handlers.

15 The OREI awards for the past year

16 were just announced at the end of September,

17 and they expect that the new request for

18 awards will be published very soon on the

19 National Institute of Food and Agriculture's

20 website. So, if you are an institution that

21 would be interested in applying or if you know

22 folks who may be, please tell them to stay
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1 tuned.

2 As Miles mentioned, we just did a

3 big mailing to let people know about the Cost4 Share Program. We understand folks are

5 talking about the mixup in the addresses, but

6 I think the fact that they are talking about

7 cost-share is a good thing, regardless of what

8 the topic is. We want to make sure that they

9 know about it. We want to have anyone who is

10 interested take advantage of those funds. We

11 now can provide reimbursements, I believe,

12 under the current funding to anyone who is

13 certified. And we want to get as much of that

14 money out there as we can.

15 The Organic Data Initiative is

16 another area that was restored in the farm

17 bill, and we now have a new pot of $5 million

18 for data collection on organics. So, that

19 might be a little cryptic, but what we are

20 doing with this is trying to expand the price

21 information that we have available through the

22 AMS Market News Program on what people are
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1 getting paid for organic products around the

2 country. Some of this information is very

3 specific to different regions. And the Market

4 News team is actually also going to be

5 expanding the local and regional Market News

6 data, so that it is really very

7 differentiated. And wherever you are selling

8 your product, hopefully, this will provide

9 more information, so that you can know what a

10 fair price is to either charge or to pay for

11 organic products.

12 One of the end goals of this

13 year's Organic Data Initiative effort is to

14 try to assist the Risk Management Agency in

15 providing new crop insurance tools for organic

16 producers. There are a small number of

17 commodities that currently have specific

18 organic price selections. So, that if you are

19 buying a crop insurance policy and you have a

20 crop loss, you can actually get paid out at

21 the organic market price versus the

22 conventional market price, which, as we know,
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1 typically can be a big difference in terms of

2 the farmer's pocketbook.

3 So, we are working with the Risk

4 Management Agency to try to help them develop

5 more specific price selections for more crops,

6 especially in the fruit and vegetable arena.

7 There are also other options for

8 organic crop insurance that have been

9 expanding. This year they announced the

10 contract price election tool. So, even if

11 someone is not growing a crop that currently

12 has a specific price selection with RMA, if

13 you have a contract and you can show that

14 contract to the insurance provider, you can

15 get an insurance contract on that specific

16 price, which really expands the options for

17 organic.

18 And something I think a lot of

19 people have been waiting for, in the next

20 probably couple of months, we are going to be

21 seeing a whole farm insurance product that is

22 really going to address the needs of our
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1 highly-diversified particularly specialty crop

2 farmers and make organic crop insurance a much

3 more accessible tool than it ever has been in

4 the past, hopefully, with a lot less

5 paperwork. So, again, stay tuned for that. 

6 We will be sharing a lot of information. 

7 Hopefully, this will be a really important way

8 for producers to be able to mitigate the risk

9 that is inherent in organic production.

10 I also want to mention the farm

11 bill developments for the exemption to

12 Research and Promotion Boards, which are

13 commonly known as Checkoff Programs. The farm

14 bill did provide a provision that would exempt

15 certified organic operations from having to

16 contribute to those Boards. And that rule is

17 in process and should be available for public

18 comment within the next few months.

19 As you probably all know, there is

20 also the option in the farm bill for the

21 industry to propose an Organic Checkoff

22 Program. There is really not much that we can
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1 say as USDA on this at this point. It is

2 really up to the community to decide what it

3 is that you want, but the USDA does stand

4 ready to respond in the event that a proposal

5 does come to us.

6 So, I want to circle back to the

7 Secretary's Guidance and the Organic Working

8 Group. Within Secretary Vilsack's 2013

9 Departmental Guidance on Organic there were

10 really five main priorities or main themes. 

11 And that is how we have organized the work of

12 the Organic Working Group.

13 We have formed what we have called

14 Project Action Teams. Again, we are really

15 trying to focus on tangible actions and

16 impacts. And the five areas are training and

17 outreach, supporting the transition to

18 organic. The third one is always a little

19 cryptic, regulatory reciprocity, which is

20 really reducing paperwork. I think that will

21 become clearer as I give some examples. 

22 Research and data.
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1 I should emphasize that the

2 Organic Working Group, we have a listserv of

3 over 100 people within the USDA. We typically

4 have 25 to 30 active members at any of our

5 meetings. So, it is a pretty significant

6 group.

7 So, I am going to go through each

8 of our project teams and talk a little bit

9 about what we are going to be doing over the

10 next year.

11 So, our reciprocity team, again,

12 this is looking at how we can reduce the

13 amount of paperwork, reduce the amount of

14 bureaucracy that we are requiring of any

15 farmer to make it easier for them to

16 participate in our programs.

17 The top, I think, work that we

18 have going on is really in the area of

19 conservation. The National Resources

20 Conservation Service and the National Organic

21 Program have been working together for the

22 last year or two to coordinate the
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1 Conservation Program requirements on the NRCS

2 side with the requirements that we at the NOP

3 have for an Organic System Plan.

4 So, the NRCS has actually

5 developed a new template for conservation

6 activity planning that walks through exactly

7 what the requirements are of the organic

8 regulations for things like nutrient

9 management, soil health, livestock grazing,

10 the whole area of the maintenance and/or

11 improvement of natural resources, to make sure

12 that these two efforts are working hand-in13 glove.

14 My hope is that this will provide

15 a big leg up for organic producers, both in

16 conservation planning and actually

17 implementing organic and conservation

18 practices on their farms. And hopefully, it

19 will also help them with the paperwork. You

20 know, we always hear that, other than the cost

21 of certification, the paperwork is one of the

22 biggest barriers.
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1 And so, if someone can walk into

2 an NRCS field office and get help filling out

3 this plan, it can get them a good part of the

4 way to having their OSP done. So, this is

5 really great stuff, and it will be rolling out

6 in the next few months with a lot of training

7 and outreach opportunities. So, do stay tuned

8 for that. And please, when you see the

9 information, if you could share it with your

10 networks, we would really appreciate that. We

11 want to get this out as widely as possible, so

12 that people can take advantage of the new

13 tool.

14 Another area -- and this is the

15 first time that we are announcing this

16 actually, so you are all getting a bit of a

17 sneak preview -- is a new streamlined

18 procedure for making non-GE label claims on

19 meat and poultry products. So, the Food and

20 Safety Inspection Service has been working

21 with the NOP to cut out some of the red tape

22 that had previously been required for
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1 certified organic meat and poultry processors

2 to make non-genetically-engineered label

3 claims on their products.

4 So, as of last Friday, the Organic

5 Certificate is pretty much all that you need

6 to be able to make those claims. So, the meat

7 and poultry processors will now be able to say

8 that, if it is meat, that the animal was not

9 fed a genetically-engineered diet, or if it is

10 a processed product like a sausage, that it

11 was not made with genetically-engineered

12 ingredients. So, we hope this will just be

13 another tool that will show the value of

14 organic certification.

15 And the last thing, I previously

16 talked a little bit about crop insurance, but

17 we have an additional effort going on with our

18 friends at the Risk Management Agency to

19 conduct what I am calling a needs assessment

20 of crop insurance documentation. So, we have

21 gotten some questions from organic certifiers

22 in recent months about why these insurance
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1 providers are contacting them to get organic

2 system plans or organic inspection reports,

3 and why this is necessary for crop insurance.

4 So, we know that that can be a lot

5 of paperwork, and it is also often one of the

6 first or middle steps in the certification

7 process. It doesn't give a full picture of

8 the corrective actions or other communication

9 that has gone on.

10 So, we are going to be working

11 with the Risk Management Agency to see if

12 there are ways that we can streamline that

13 process and, again, reduce the paperwork

14 burden on our organic producers.

15 We also have a team working on

16 research. That team specifically responds to

17 the National Organic Standards Board's

18 research priorities every year. So, they had

19 done that back in the spring. Once the

20 research priorities are finalized at this

21 meeting, they will again take a look at those

22 and provide some feedback.
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1 They have been keeping up with the

2 development of these goals throughout the

3 process, and they are very engaged to make

4 sure that they are feeding any needs for

5 research, particularly on regulatory topics,

6 into the requests for applications in the

7 USDA's various research funding programs.

8 Another goal that they have for

9 the coming year is to conduct a stakeholder

10 needs assessment of critical organic research

11 priorities. They want to make sure that they

12 are hearing from all of the voices out there,

13 so that we make sure that any research that is

14 funded is informed by those needs that have

15 been identified by our stakeholders. And I

16 think the hope is, by developing a White Paper

17 or something similar, that we can get that

18 information out to a broader audience, so that

19 that information isn't just held within the

20 USDA.

21 I wanted to just highly a couple

22 of other things going with research at the
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1 USDA. As I mentioned, the Organic Research

2 and Extension Initiative did just announce

3 their most recent awards. And last week they

4 actually had a meeting in D.C. with all of the

5 national program leaders who are conducting

6 organic research around the country. So,

7 there are a few topics that I wanted to

8 highlight that I thought might be of

9 particular interest to the Board and to the

10 folks in the room here.

11 There is a lot of work going on

12 with the Agricultural Research Service on

13 public corn breeding to make sure that organic

14 producers have access to what they are calling

15 elite cultivars, the best of the best. Some

16 of the areas that they are looking at is

17 increasing the methionine content of corn,

18 which would, of course, directly address some

19 of the concerns that we have around making

20 sure our organic poultry have the nutrition

21 that they need. And also, lack of pollen

22 receptors to breed corn that does not accept
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1 the pollen from a genetically-modified

2 organism, to make available another tool for

3 coexistence.

4 And also, some research going on

5 within a different Agricultural Research

6 Service facility to look at natural strategies

7 to alleviate enteric pathogens in poultry. 

8 So, they have some very promising research

9 coming out about the potential for essential

10 oils to be able to lower the salmonella rate

11 in chickens, another piece that will be

12 important for us as we are developing our

13 animal welfare and looking at poultry that has

14 more access to the outdoors.

15 Another area where there is a lot

16 of research going on is cover cropping and no

17 till systems in organic agriculture. This

18 area has a lot more variability and a lot of

19 attention. And the research seems to be

20 highlighting the challenge of how we

21 sufficiently can kill our cover crops in order

22 to make sure that there is not excessive
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1 competition, once the organic cash crop is

2 planted.

3 And there is also a lot of

4 research going on on trying to assess the

5 impact that organic practices have on climate

6 change mitigation. Also, a lot of research

7 going on, a lot of challenges in trying to

8 capture the data accurately, but important

9 research, I think, to feed into the larger

10 conversation.

11 One of the things that I thought

12 was very interesting was that several of the

13 scientists commented on the challenge of

14 replicating organic systems in a research

15 environment; that organic farming systems are

16 often simply too sophisticated and too unique

17 to be replicated simply on a research

18 operation.

19 So, I thought that was kind of a

20 compliment to organic farmers at large. And

21 it also highlights the need to make sure that

22 we are doing research on the farm as well, so
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1 that we are truly capturing what is going on

2 out in the world of organic production.

3 I also wanted to mention that we

4 recently had a visit from the Rodale

5 Institute. As some of you may have heard,

6 Coach Smallwood did a 160-mile walk from

7 Kutztown, Pennsylvania to Washington, D.C. 

8 And so, we had a meeting with them when they

9 arrived here about the White Paper that they

10 have put out on the potential of organic to

11 mitigate the effects of climate change and to

12 share some information between our research

13 agencies, our Climate Change Office, and our

14 conservation programs on what we might be able

15 to do together.

16 So, there are some very promising

17 conversations that came out of that, and it

18 was, I think, also good to have an outside

19 speak on behalf of what is going on with

20 organic, which sometimes can be more

21 meaningful than those of us who work inside

22 the USDA.
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1 So, I just wanted to highlight

2 that and say that, if anyone else would like

3 to pay us a visit, you are always welcome.

4 The next project team I want to

5 highlight is our data team. The data team has

6 been working for the last year on conducting

7 an inventory of data across the USDA regarding

8 organic and non-genetically-engineered

9 agriculture. So, we are putting what we hope

10 are the finishing touches on that and hope to

11 have that available to the public this year,

12 to highlight just the information that is

13 available for those that are interested.

14 The group is also working on

15 improving trade codes, so that there will be

16 better tracking of exports and imports in

17 organic. If you have ever looked at organic

18 trade, you will know that there is very

19 limited data available. We are only tracking,

20 I think, a couple of dozen commodities at this

21 point. And so, they are in the process of

22 trying to expand the information that is
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1 available.

2 A couple of other highlights I

3 wanted to mention, specifically with the

4 National Agricultural Statistics Service, are

5 that we had a publication just recently on a

6 special tabulation from the 2012 Census. I

7 made the mistake of trying to print it and

8 discovered it was 216 pages.

9 So, if you have taken a look, it

10 is a really extensive look at the

11 characteristics of organic. They pulled out

12 both a national and a state-by-state look at

13 who is farming organically, how they are

14 farming, what they are producing, what their

15 profitability is. And it is really sort of

16 like a mini-census just looking at organic.

17 Some of the highlights from it

18 were information that said that organic

19 producers are much more likely to sell direct

20 to the consumer. Only 7 percent of all U.S.

21 farms sold directly to consumers while 42

22 percent of organic farms reported direct
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1 sales.

2 Organic farms were much more

3 likely than other farms to invest in on-farm

4 renewable energy-producing systems, like solar

5 panels and wind turbines. And organic

6 producers were much more likely to be

7 beginning farmers, with 27 percent starting

8 farming in the last 10 years compare to 18

9 percent of all principal farmers. And they

10 are also, typically, younger, with 26 percent

11 under 45 years old compared to 16 percent of

12 all principal operators.

13 So, there is a lot of very good

14 data and I think a lot of interesting

15 information to inform us all about, you know,

16 who the organic community is, when we are

17 thinking about the policies that we want to

18 make.

19 In the same vein, NASS will be

20 publishing its next organic producer survey in

21 early 2015. They will be sending this out to

22 our entire list of certified operations. And
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1 they really want to highlight how important

2 this data is. Without good data, we can't

3 make good tools.

4 One of the biggest users of this

5 data is our Risk Management Agency, which is

6 working, as I mentioned, very hard to try to

7 provide better crop insurance products. So,

8 I wanted to put out the call to all of you

9 that, when we get information out about this

10 survey, if you could please help us to share

11 that information with organic producers and to

12 communicate to them the importance of

13 responding to the survey, so that we do have

14 this information to make sure that we are

15 providing the best programs and services that

16 we can to them.

17 Our training and outreach team

18 this year again will be focusing on our update

19 and our re-release of the Organic Literacy

20 Initiative. And once that is done, we want to

21 work more with external partners to distribute

22 organic resources beyond the USDA.
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1 You know, we had focused a lot on

2 getting our internal folks trained. And now,

3 we want to figure out how to move beyond that. 

4 How do we really put these necessary tools in

5 the hands of those folks who have the boots on

6 the ground, who have that one-on-one contact

7 with farmers.

8 We did a Google Hangout earlier

9 this spring to talk about what the barriers

10 are to organic certification. And we heard

11 loud and clear that farmers want one-on-one

12 technical assistance. They want to be able to

13 talk to a human being who can answer their

14 questions about how it is that they can farm

15 organically.

16 So, we want to make sure that we

17 are working with those who have a field

18 presence to make that happen. One of the ways

19 that we are doing that is we are working

20 closely with the Farm Service Agency that is

21 trying to incorporate programs beyond their

22 typical mission and provide better outreach
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1 and information to farmers. So, they have

2 taken organic as one of their pilot projects

3 to do that, and we hope that soon we will be

4 able to point to the Farm Service Agency as a

5 field resource for organic producers.

6 And our last team is focusing on

7 supporting the transition to organic. In some

8 ways, I think this is one of our most

9 challenging and most important areas. I mean,

10 we have had a goal in the USDA Strategic Plan

11 for several years now to increase the number

12 of certified organic operations, which is a

13 real challenge. It is not easy to get

14 certified, and we want to make sure that we

15 keep those standards strong. But we also want

16 to make sure that people who are interested in

17 participating in the plan can do so.

18 So, our plan is to look creatively

19 at the USDA, at all of our technical and

20 financial resources, and to think about them

21 in a different way, and think about how they

22 might be able to serve producers and handlers
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1 who are looking at the transition.

2 So, one of the examples is we are

3 talking to the Farm Service Agency about how

4 the Conservation Reserve Program might be able

5 to fund farmers who want to retire a buffer

6 strip and actually give somebody some

7 financial payment for that conservation

8 practice that they are putting in.

9 So, it is things like that,

10 looking at existing tools in a new way and

11 trying to figure out how they can better serve

12 our organic producers.

13 Our end goal is to create websites

14 and fact sheets that summarize and explain

15 these resources, to facilitate the transition

16 to organic. And we are also looking at how we

17 might be able to incorporate resources outside

18 the USDA. We know there is so much good work

19 that is going on in the organizations that you

20 all work for, at organic certifiers, all

21 across the country that are helping people to

22 make that jump to organic certification
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1 already. We want to see if we can't provide

2 a central resource for all of that. So, there

3 will be more to come on that soon.

4 The last thing I wanted to

5 mention, as Miles alluded to, that we will be

6 doing a big focus on stakeholder engagement. 

7 We are doing a lot of outreach and education

8 over the coming year, which is because we

9 really do want to hear from you. We want to

10 hear from all of the voices in the organic

11 community.

12 So, we will be hosting a series of

13 webinars on the different topics, primarily on

14 the topics that the Organic Working Group is

15 focusing on. We are hosting those mostly in

16 the winter and early spring, so that it will

17 be a time when we hope that organic producers

18 will be less involved in farming and,

19 hopefully, more available to join us on one of

20 those webinars. We are hosting them

21 electronically, so that people don't have the

22 financial and time burden of having to travel
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1 to see us in person.

2 And we will be starting in

3 November with a conversation on training and

4 outreach. So, as I mentioned, we are focusing

5 on how to get information out beyond the walls

6 of the USDA, and we hope that people will join

7 us to give us some creative ideas on how that

8 might happen.

9 We will also be doing as much

10 travel as we can ourselves in the fall and

11 winter conference season to make sure that we

12 are getting out there and making ourselves

13 available around the country to hear what

14 folks have to say, so that, again, we can

15 better inform the work that we are doing.

16 So, that is all that I have. I

17 just wanted to emphasize that I really am a

18 resource for organic within the USDA, and that

19 my job is to make sure that the USDA programs

20 work as well as they can for the organic

21 community, but I can only do that if I hear

22 from you all for what it is that we need to be
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1 doing and what it is that we could be doing

2 better. So, please do think of me as a

3 resource. My contact information is there. 

4 And we are very interested in hearing your

5 feedback.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

7 Betsy.

8 I would like to invite questions

9 from the Board for Betsy on the topics that

10 have been covered. Burning questions?

11 Yes, Joe?

12 MEMBER DICKSON: Thank you, Betsy. 

13 That was an awesome presentation.

14 MS. RAKOLA: Thank you.

15 MEMBER DICKSON: The FSIS policy

16 change or streamlining on non-GMO or non-GE

17 label claims is really good news. But I

18 notice in your presentation you used the

19 phrase "non-genetically engineered" --

20 MS. RAKOLA: Uh-hum.

21 MEMBER DICKSON: -- versus "non22 GMO". Is there a Department thinking or
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1 policy on those two phrases and which is

2 preferable or allowed under the guidelines?

3 MS. RAKOLA: I am not sure if

4 there is a policy at the level of the

5 Department. From what I understand, that was

6 consistent with the FSIS existing policies.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other

8 questions?

9 Jay?

10 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you for

11 your presentation, Betsy.

12 You used the term "coexistence". 

13 And as you know, there is a raging debate

14 within the organic community as to how organic

15 over the long-term can coexist with a

16 technology that causes involuntary exposure or

17 genetic drift off the target site, and the

18 associated pain that that causes in reduced

19 value or the threat of litigation against

20 people that are drifted on or farms that are

21 drifted on.

22 I am wondering if there is a
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1 process -- I know the Secretary has engaged on

2 this issue -- but how this Board and the

3 community that we hear from at every meeting

4 on this topic can work with you to better

5 articulate the concerns that are being heard

6 in this room on coexistence and the

7 difficulty, the daily challenges that people

8 are suffering as a result of genetic flow, a

9 gene flow off of the GMO crops.

10 MS. RAKOLA: Sure. And I think

11 the Secretary and the whole USDA are keenly

12 aware of the challenges of coexistence and are

13 actively trying to find workable solutions, so

14 that everyone can farm in the way that works

15 the best for them.

16 The Secretary's AC-21, which is

17 the Task Force on Biotechnology and

18 Coexistence for the 21st Century, is

19 reconvening, and they are actively seeking

20 information for solutions. We are in the

21 process of collecting all of the resources

22 that are out there and trying to make sure
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1 that we are aware of all of the information

2 and tools that are available within the USDA

3 and without. So, if there are information

4 pieces that people would like to share, my

5 email is up there. I would be happy to pass

6 those on to the Committee to make sure that

7 they are shared, and that there will be future

8 opportunities for input and public comment.

9 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other

11 questions?

12 (No response.)

13 Thank you, Betsy.

14 MS. RAKOLA: Thank you.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I think it is

16 time now for a 15-minute break. I will be

17 very prompt in starting us off again at 20

18 minutes to 11:00.

19 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

20 went off the record at 10:21 a.m. and went

21 back on the record at 10:39 a.m.)

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Let's get
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1 started.

2 The next item on our agenda is a

3 materials update summary of new and

4 outstanding petitions. And Dr. Lisa Brines

5 will present this.

6 DR. BRINES: Thank you.

7 And just one clarification before

8 I dig in. Just a notice for those in the

9 audience that are keeping. There's a lot of

10 materials lists within this presentation. So,

11 the presentation as well as the earlier

12 presentations by Betsy and Miles earlier this

13 morning will be posted on the NOP website. 

14 So, don't feel like you have to take all the

15 notes as we go through this.

16 So, just a reminder on the

17 evaluation criteria. For materials, the

18 criteria are established and provided for in

19 the Organic Foods Production Act. As we talk

20 about materials and petitions and sunset

21 materials throughout this meeting this week,

22 just keep in mind that the questions from the
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1 Technical Reports as well as the NOSB

2 Checklist were developed as tools to align

3 with those OFPA criteria.

4 There are different criteria for

5 production uses versus handling. So, crop and

6 livestock materials use the Organic Foods

7 Production Act criteria. The handling, in

8 addition, have additional criteria for their

9 evaluation.

10 Specifically, processing aids and

11 adjuvants are evaluated under additional

12 criteria that are at 205.600(b). That is just

13 for synthetic handling materials. And in

14 addition, agricultural materials used in

15 handling are subject to additional criteria

16 for commercial availability as well.

17 Okay. So now, getting into the

18 lists in terms of what is outstanding with the

19 Board, there are no crops petitions on the

20 agenda for this meeting, but there are a

21 handful of materials that are petitioned

22 materials that are under review by the Board. 
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1 Again, this full list will be available on the

2 website, and I have asterisked a handful of

3 the materials that have technical reports that

4 are in development and that should be

5 available before the next meeting.

6 One additional note in terms of

7 the petition availability, the NOP posts the

8 petitions on the website at the time that they

9 are provided to the Board for review. So, all

10 these petitions are posted on our website

11 because they were submitted to the program,

12 determined eligible and complete, and then,

13 forwarded to the Board for review.

14 At any given time, we also have

15 other petitions that have been submitted to

16 the program that are under evaluation for

17 eligibility or might need revision by the

18 petitioner before they are provided to the

19 Board. So, those are the ones are not

20 captured under this slide. These are just the

21 ones that were determined eligible, complete,

22 and forwarded to the Board for review.
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1 For the Livestock Subcommittee,

2 again, no petitions on the agenda for this

3 meeting, but there are a number of materials

4 that are under review by the Livestock

5 Subcommittee. All of the aquaculture

6 petitions are still within the Livestock

7 Committee's purview at this point, and there

8 is a handful of Technical reports that are in

9 development, including aluminum sulfate and

10 sodium bisulfate, which have similar uses for

11 treatment of poultry litter, and a petition

12 for zinc sulfate is under review and a

13 Technical Report is in development as well. 

14 So, all of these petitions are currently

15 posted on the NOP website.

16 For handling, there are two

17 petitions that are under consideration by the

18 full Board at this meeting, including a

19 petition to remove glycerin from Section

20 205.605(b) of the National List, as well as a

21 petition to add whole algal flour to the

22 National List for use in organic handling.
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1 There are a number of other

2 outstanding petitions under review by the

3 Handling Subcommittee. A couple of the ones

4 on the list there have been reviewed by the

5 Board at previous meetings, but a decision has

6 not been made, as well as they have a newer

7 petition for triethyl citrate which is under

8 review, and a Technical Report for that

9 substance is current in development. Again,

10 all of these petitions are currently posted on

11 the NOP's website.

12 For voting procedures for petition

13 substance, again, just a reminder that the

14 Board takes two votes for all petition

15 substances. The first motion is a

16 classification vote, generally only needed if

17 the substance has not been previously

18 classified by the full Board or if the Board

19 is contemplating a change to classification

20 for something previously classified. Things

21 would be classified either as synthetic or

22 non-synthetic or, for handling, agricultural
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1 or non-agricultural as well.

2 The second motion for petition

3 substances is either a petition -- I'm sorry

4 -- a motion to list to remove or to amend. 

5 So, that directs the program what your intent

6 is to do with that material.

7 And again, the majority needed to

8 pass those motions is a two-thirds majority of

9 the Board. So, with the Board today with 15

10 members, that would be 10 votes needed to pass

11 those motions. And that two-thirds majority

12 is established by OFPA.

13 Moving next into the sunset

14 materials, so the sunset 2015 materials, the

15 Board will complete its review of these

16 materials at the meeting this week. So, for

17 crops materials, this includes three sunset

18 substances, two listings for aqueous potassium

19 silicate. It is listed twice on the National

20 List under (e) as an insecticide and, also,

21 under (I) for plant disease control. There is

22 a listing, also, for sodium carbonate
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1 peroxyhdrate on 205.601, and that is under

2 (a), and sulfurous acid which is on paragraph

3 (j) as plant or soil amendments. So, three of

4 those substances will have their review

5 concluded at this meeting.

6 And in support of its review, the

7 Crop Subcommittee did request updated

8 technical information for all of those

9 materials, which is made available to the

10 public as well in advance of the previous

11 meeting.

12 For handling, there are four

13 substances for sunset 2015: gellan gum, which

14 is a non-synthetic material listed on

15 205.605(a), and then, the other three

16 materials are listed as non-organic

17 agricultural materials on 205.606. So, we

18 have the two cooking wines, marsala and

19 sherry, as well as tragacanth gum on 606.

20 In support of its review, the

21 Handling Subcommittee did not request

22 additional technical information. So, they
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1 are working off of existing reports and public

2 comment for those materials.

3 So, in addition to the 2015

4 materials that are under consideration at this

5 meeting, this week is also the first of two

6 meetings for the sunset 2016 materials. So,

7 we will be hearing comments for two crop

8 materials, ferric phosphate for slug and snail

9 control as well as hydrogen chloride, which is

10 used for de-linting cottonseed for planting. 

11 And in support of its review, there was one

12 updated Technical Report requested by the Crop

13 Subcommittee to address the uses of hydrogen

14 chloride.

15 There are no 2016 materials for

16 the Livestock Committee, but there are a

17 number for Handling. I won't read through

18 this entire list, but I did asterisk the ones

19 that have updated technical information

20 available, which are tetrasodium

21 pyrophosphate, TSPP, as well as

22 microorganisms. So, 10 of those.
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1 And for 2016 materials, the Board

2 won't be concluding its review until the

3 following spring meeting. So, this is the

4 first of two meetings where these materials

5 will be considered.

6 Okay. And I did just want to give

7 a preview of sunset 2017 materials. The

8 majority of materials on the National List are 

9 scheduled to sunset in 2017. These materials

10 are not currently on the agenda for this

11 week's meeting, but the first of the two

12 sunset meetings for sunset 2017 would be next

13 spring.

14 So, we have got the complete list

15 that is available in a memo that we previously

16 published back in January. So, I would refer

17 you to that list for the complete list, but I

18 did want to just give a preview. Because

19 there are so many materials that are coming up

20 for 2017, I thought it would be helpful to

21 know what is coming down the line, as we have

22 been working with the Subcommittees.
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1 We did work with them over the

2 summer to determine which materials might need

3 updated technical information. We have been

4 able to dedicate more than $330,000 for

5 Technical Report development for sunset 2017

6 material. So, these are in development and

7 will be available for the public soon.

8 For sunset 2017 materials, I have

9 given the full list of Technical Reports that

10 are in development. The ones that will be

11 coming down the pike sooner in terms of being

12 posted on our website are probably ethanol and

13 isopropanol. The vitamin report for B1, C,

14 and E probably will be the last one to post.

15 I just wanted to point out one

16 specific one on this list, which is EPA List

17 4. We did receive a request from the Crops

18 Subcommittee to develop a Technical Report to

19 address EPA List 4, but limited to the class

20 of nonylphenol ethoxylates. So, we are moving

21 forward on that Technical Report. It is one

22 of the categories that have been identified by
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1 the Inerts Working Group. So, we are moving

2 this one forward as part of the sunset review.

3 For livestock, we have a number of

4 reports that are in development. Again, the

5 ethanol and isopropanol reports will probably

6 be available to the public first.

7 We are also doing a number of

8 categorical listings that haven't been updated

9 with new technical information since around

10 1994-1995. So, new category Technical Reports

11 for excipients, electrolytes, and vitamins,

12 and we are doing a combined Technical Report

13 to address a few of the parasiticides on the

14 National List, which includes fenbedazole,

15 iromectin, and moxidectin.

16 And the number of handling reports

17 that are in there, I won't go through this

18 full list. I will note that, for the

19 Technical Reports, some of these are limited20 scope Technical Reports. So, based on the

21 available information, there is not a full

22 Technical Report that the Subcommittee
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1 determined was needed, but oftentimes just

2 specific questions or new information that

3 might need to be addressed. So, that will be

4 clearly marked on the Technical Report as it

5 is posted for the public, whether it is a full

6 Technical Report or just limited scope.

7 Some of these listings also have

8 been combined, just because of related uses. 

9 So, for example, we plan on doing one

10 Technical Report that addresses citric acid

11 and it is three salts, which on the list there

12 includes calcium, potassium, and sodium

13 citrate.

14 All right. So, that's it for the

15 sunset. I do want to give just one slide on

16 an update about the petition process.

17 As you may recall, at the April

18 2014 NOSB meeting, the Board passed a

19 recommendation, two recommendations asking the

20 NOP to update the petition process. One makes

21 some changes to the petition guidelines which

22 are currently posted in The Federal Register
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1 and haven't been updated for several years. 

2 Another recommendation addressed the allowance

3 for confidential business information as part

4 of the petition process.

5 We are currently working on

6 implementing the changes that were recommended

7 by the Board. At the point at which those new

8 procedures are published in The Federal

9 Register, they will become effective. So, in

10 the meantime, we are still working off the old

11 petition guidelines, which do allow the

12 submission of confidential business

13 information. And we have been working closely

14 with petitioners that have submitted petitions

15 in this interim time to let them know about

16 the availability of that recommendation, and

17 they may want to consider that as they draft

18 their petitions, until the new procedures are

19 published.

20 And I think that is it. So, thank

21 you.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Dr.
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1 Brines.

2 Are there any questions in regards

3 to this presentation? Any concerns or

4 clarifications that you need?

5 (No response.)

6 Well, you're getting off lightly

7 today, Lisa.

8 (Laughter.)

9 Thank you.

10 DR. BRINES: Thank you.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The day is

12 still young, I am reminded. Yes.

13 So, before we move into public

14 comment, I have a few comments that I would

15 like to make as Chair. I waited to see what

16 the NOP would say, and I was at NOC yesterday. 

17 So, I would like to try to bring our attention

18 to a number of items at this meeting.

19 I should start off by telling you

20 that I have a gavel, which I use when I am

21 quite cross, and it is not good for Jean to

22 get cross.
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1 (Laughter.)

2 And I also have my scepter with me

3 to bless those who do good work.

4 (Laughter.)

5 So, I find it a great honor to be

6 Chair of this august organization, for which

7 we get paid absolutely nothing, but it is good

8 fun sometimes.

9 And I would like to just bring you

10 up-to-date very briefly with some NOSB items.

11 As you all recall, there were a

12 number of changes which the NOP made over the

13 last year or so. And some of these didn't

14 seem quite right. So, adjustments have been

15 made.

16 As you observed, the NOSB is once

17 again chairing the meeting. And Miles we have

18 surrounded by the Chair and the Vice Chair to

19 keep him under control.

20 (Laughter.)

21 The Charter, do you remember the

22 Charter? As we heard yesterday at the NOC
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1 meeting, there was some confusion in the GSC

2 and they altered the NOSB Charter, so it

3 sounded like we would go away in two years. 

4 That has been corrected, thanks to the work of

5 a number of people.

6 In the last few weeks, the NOP has

7 also reactivated the Policy and Procedures

8 Subcommittee, which, as you recall was

9 deactivated back in February. And the NOSB

10 will work collaboratively with the NOP to

11 rewrite the Policy/Procedure Manual and to

12 clarify sunset policy, which, as you know,

13 this is the first time we are doing this new

14 version of it. So, depending on how things go

15 at this meeting will determine to some extent

16 how we can aid in that clarification process.

17 We also expect that the Policy

18 Subcommittee will work on a new procedure for

19 annotations, which right now we have a lot of

20 limitations on. And especially, we are

21 interested in seeing the manner in which we

22 could do annotations at sunset, which
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1 presently we can't do.

2 So, these are all really good

3 things, and there are other things, as you

4 have heard from the presentations from the NOP

5 staff today. And I am very confident that we

6 can continue to make improvements in our work

7 over the next year or two.

8 One of the things that I would

9 like you to be aware of is I do talk to the

10 Deputy Administrator every week. And you have

11 my phone numbers and you have my emails. So,

12 you have a direct connection at anytime to me

13 and to Miles through me, although, of course,

14 you can contact him directly as well. But

15 your concerns are carried forward very

16 quickly, and they are of great interest and

17 concern to all of us, that we try to do the

18 right thing at the right time, but we are all

19 human, remember. So, being tolerant of each

20 other is quite important.

21 The other thing that I have just

22 put up here, which Colehour kindly reminded me
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1 to do so, is to remind everyone of our NOSB

2 mission statement and the vision statement for

3 what it is that we are all about. And it is

4 up there on the screen for you to review and

5 remind ourselves of why we are here and what

6 an important role we play in the limited scope

7 of agriculture that we really are involved in

8 in the United States and worldwide really.

9 I would like to move on to the

10 next slide, if I may, Michelle, as I try to

11 give us some broader context within which we

12 are working.

13 Like a lot of you here in this

14 room, I have been involved in the organics

15 long before there was the organic seal. And

16 while the typical consumer might not know that

17 Section 205.237 deals with livestock feed, as

18 we can see here in this cartoon -- these cows

19 are getting up-to-date -- we, by contrast,

20 really get into the weeds, literally and

21 figuratively.

22 But I was reminded recently, when
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1 I gave a presentation to the National

2 Association of State Departments of

3 Agriculture, that we could lose our way and we

4 can forget that the general field of

5 agriculture and food production, even though

6 organics is a $35 billion industry, it is only

7 about 3 percent of agriculture in terms of

8 dollar sales and only about 1 percent of

9 farmable land at the present time. So, it is

10 quite small when you put it into perspective.

11 And then, think about the USDA. I

12 don't know when the last time was you walked

13 around those hallowed halls. It is a huge

14 agency. And I found that, when you walk

15 around that cafeteria down there in

16 Washington, D.C., you can't even buy whole fat

17 organic milk, let alone cream line or non18 homogenized and, of course, heaven forbid,

19 raw.

20 (Laughter.)

21 So, now the NOP has been working

22 to increase organic literacy of the
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1 inhabitants of that building, but there are a

2 lot of entrenched ideas and overcomplicated

3 rules and regulations and red tape, with which

4 we are all much too familiar, and many

5 competing interests.

6 And we, all of us, must work

7 within that system, whether we like it or not,

8 no matter how aggravating. At least we are a

9 democracy and we can air our dirty washing on

10 the line, which is hard to do in other parts

11 of the world.

12 And the Agricultural Marketing

13 Service, that component is actually very small

14 in the USDA. And then, the NOP is just a tiny

15 part of AMS.

16 Now when the OFPA and regulations

17 were being written, we were an even smaller

18 sector and there was almost no processed

19 organic food. Now processed organics are

20 growing fast, and we have to produce organic

21 food. However, we have to produce that

22 organic food within the context of our cheap
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1 U.S. food policy, and this reduces slim profit

2 margins and increases competition, which leads

3 to stress and all kinds of other things.

4 The Europeans, by contrast, are

5 happy to pay much more for their food. So,

6 therefore, the farmers and the processors in

7 Britain and Europe can have much higher profit

8 margins for organic products.

9 So, we in this room have a

10 responsibility and must work to boost consumer

11 confidence, improve labels on products, reduce

12 consumer confusion, and maybe spend less time

13 and energy, on the one hand, suggesting that

14 our organic products may be dangerous to eat

15 or, on the other, complaining that the NOSB is

16 failing to give every producer and every

17 processor all of the chemicals that they want.

18 So, my plea with us all here today

19 is pick your battles. Working together,

20 building partnerships, it is absolutely the

21 only way to go. We are part of a complex

22 system. So, we should use systems thinking
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1 from the farm as a system to the multi2 ingredient chocolate chip cookie production,

3 to the global marketplace, constantly

4 challenged by change, all kinds of change,

5 including climate change.

6 We have to remind ourselves that

7 everything is interconnected. And our

8 interlocking agricultural policies and

9 regulations must be used to strengthen those

10 connections and not destroy them. Because if

11 we can't work together -- and we are a small

12 group -- building partnerships between diverse

13 stakeholder groups, we may face the economic

14 and environmental "Tragedy of the Commons"

15 articulated many years ago by Garrett Hardin.

16 His theory outlined how

17 individuals acting independently and

18 rationally, each according to individual self19 interest, behaved contrary to the best long20 term interests of the whole group. And thus,

21 we deplete the common resource, such as soil

22 and water, or in this case we will lose our
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1 market niche in organic food production.

2 It is not realistic to demand

3 absolutely no synthetics in anything with the

4 organic seal. And it is not realistic to ask

5 for every synthetic or every tool in the

6 toolbox.

7 And the NOP must work more

8 collaboratively with the NOSB in all aspects

9 of our work. Together, we have to move toward

10 common ground. We have to be proactive as

11 possible as a community, working with all the

12 changes; be sure we are asking the right

13 questions, and always thinking in an

14 interdisciplinary manner with systems

15 thinking.

16 So, let's seek common ground

17 together as we go into the rest of this

18 meeting, take our public comments, and work

19 through our Subcommittee actions that we have

20 to do today and the rest of this week.

21 Thank you.

22 (Applause.)
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1 Do you have a comment?

2 MEMBER STONE: First, I want to

3 say thank you for that.

4 But, before we start public

5 comment, we implemented a little -- it is not

6 a policy, but a thing, that people that

7 respond to the stoplight system in the public

8 comment -- we have two categories: those that

9 time it so well that, when they say the last

10 word of their comment and right when the red

11 buzzer goes off, they get a prize, right? So,

12 it is either a cup or a T-shirt, a USDA

13 T-shirt, an organic T-shirt. All right?

14 (Laughter.)

15 And we owe two people -- and

16 Michelle and I couldn't remember because

17 several people -- the other category is, when

18 the red light goes off, they stop in mid19 sentence or mid-word in respect for that,

20 which all this is respect for each other's

21 time and ability to ask questions and all

22 that.
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1 So, we owe a couple of people

2 T-shirts from the San Antonio meeting. Marty

3 refused his because it wasn't organic cotton,

4 but we can take that up with the Secretary.

5 (Laughter and applause.)

6 But we did bring a new supply of

7 cups and T-shirts for this meeting as well. 

8 So, just that.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Mac.

10 So, Michelle, we are ready to

11 organize the public comment. I have a list

12 here. I don't know for sure if it is

13 absolutely up-to-date.

14 The first person that I have

15 listed on mine is Keith Freitas. Is Keith

16 here?

17 (No response.)

18 No?

19 Then, the next person that I have

20 on the agenda is Steve Etka from NOC. Steve?

21 MR. ETKA: Good morning.

22 I am Steve Etka. I am Policy
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1 Director for the National Organic Coalition.

2 I wanted to start by thanking you

3 all for all the work that you do as NOSB

4 members. It is an intense job, but it is not

5 a thankless job because all of us are here

6 thanking you for the good work that you do.

7 And, Jean, I appreciated your

8 intro remarks.

9 As many of you know, NOC has been

10 very vocal about our concerns about the

11 unilateral changes in the sunset process made

12 by NOP last year. The Department's action is

13 a significant reinterpretation of the law,

14 which essentially turns OFPA on its head and

15 redefines the word "sunset" to mean exactly

16 the opposite.

17 Let me say the one thing upfront

18 is that one thing we do like about the new

19 process is that you all are starting the

20 process earlier, which, hopefully, will make

21 it easier to get through the materials you

22 need to get through.
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1 Our concerns on the sunset policy

2 change have been many, but let me highlight

3 the main three.

4 Process, this is a major

5 reinterpretation of OFPA and it is highly

6 controversial. At the very least, the

7 Department should have proposed this as a

8 change through the formal public notice and

9 comment process.

10 Two, who makes the decisions? The

11 new sunset process has created a great deal of

12 confusion regarding the role of NOSB

13 Subcommittees versus the full Board in terms

14 of material listing decisions. While the

15 Subcommittees should be doing a lot of the

16 groundwork for considering materials, the full

17 Board should make the final decisions about

18 listing and relisting material.

19 To their credit, NOP staff has

20 spent a lot of time in recent months to

21 clarify that the full Board will be making all

22 the materials listing decisions, at least for
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1 this meeting. But we are concerned, however,

2 that the mechanism used to make this happen

3 within the context of the new sunset review

4 process is very complicated and confusing and

5 tortured. Having all the Subcommittees vote

6 to remove all materials up for sunset review,

7 and then, having the Subcommittees take an

8 additional vote on the same material to

9 actually say what they really think about it

10 is very confusing.

11 And that leads to our final

12 concern about the policy, which is, what is

13 the Board voting on? Is it voting on

14 relisting or delisting? And we strongly

15 believe that OFPA is very clear in its

16 presumption of no synthetics as a standard of

17 organic and that the law intentionally

18 establishes a high hurdle of a super-majority

19 NOSB vote in order to allow a synthetic to be

20 used for five years, and that same high hurdle

21 for it to be relisted.

22 If that standard is not met, the
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1 law is clear that the material goes off the

2 list. When the sunset vote is on the question

3 of whether or not to relist, it becomes much

4 more simple and direct.

5 We agree that there are process

6 changes that need to be made. In that

7 context, we have given to all of you a White

8 Paper about making sure that there is a clear

9 record of decision for each material that is

10 up for review. That helps both you all and

11 the public be fully informed about the past

12 decisions made and about where the gaps are

13 that need to be filled. Prioritizing this

14 work is really important.

15 We also want to thank you for the

16 research priorities you have laid out and

17 thank NOP for relaying those priorities to

18 NIFA, the research arm of USDA.

19 Also, in closing, I wanted to just

20 thank all of the outgoing members, Jay, Wendy,

21 John, and Joe, for your hard work, and to say

22 enjoy the newfound free time.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

2 Steve.

3 Questions?

4 (No response.)

5 Thank you.

6 MR. ETKA: Thanks.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

8 speaker is Mark Kastel.

9 MR. KASTEL: Thank you, Madam

10 Chair.

11 Why should organic stakeholders

12 continue to come to the NOSB meetings? Groups

13 like the Cornucopia Institute or Beyond

14 Pesticides have four minutes to speak to you

15 folks. We represent 10,000 members. And we

16 are covering all the materials and all the

17 policies that you are deliberating on.

18 We had a wake-up call a few years

19 ago when two $12 billion companies, Martex and

20 Dean Foods WhiteWave, spent almost an hour

21 petitioning on just one material because they

22 could afford to fly numerous corporate
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1 executives and lobbyists and lawyers into this

2 room.

3 We use citizen lobbyists, farmers,

4 and other stakeholders. And I hope you will

5 give them respect when they are speaking to

6 you today.

7 Why should we come to this

8 meeting? The NOSB had always been the focus

9 for the organic community of resolving policy

10 issues.

11 I will remind many of you in this

12 room that it was 10 years ago that the

13 Cornucopia Institute and the Northeast Organic

14 Dairy Producers Alliance facilitated many

15 farmers to come in and testify. We convinced

16 the NOSB that cracking down on factory farms

17 with no pasture, putting farmers at a

18 competitive disadvantage, and cheating

19 consumers should be a priority, and you did

20 that.

21 Now the NOSB is stripped of its

22 authority to set its work plan and own agenda. 
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1 This is contrary to the Organic Foods

2 Production Act that mandates that this Board

3 advise the Secretary on implementing the Act.

4 The changes to the PPM are a

5 betrayal. The Policy and Procedure Manual was

6 developed in consultation with organic

7 stakeholders, deliberated by the Board,

8 passed, and then recommended to the USDA

9 during the Bush Administration, and adopted. 

10 That was a respectful process to the organic

11 community.

12 Mr. McEvoy, you unilaterally took

13 that authority away without talking to the

14 Board or anyone else. Wrong.

15 And people support the changes,

16 the people you are listening to. Miles,

17 farmers are nice. I'm not that nice. I work

18 for farmers. I'm a hired man. Thousands of

19 farmers, probably the majority of certified

20 organic farmers pay my check to be here today. 

21 Please listen to them.

22 It is insulting to suggest that
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1 farmers are just concerned with weed control

2 or, as you said yesterday, just aren't paying

3 attention to the list. You're not talking to

4 the same farmers we're talking to.

5 Intimidation. This is a public

6 process. That is the hallmark of this Organic

7 Policy Program that was developed by Congress. 

8 The Cornucopia Institute and everyone else who

9 speaks out is subject to a critique and

10 analysis by others of what we are presenting.

11 I can tell you, it is not easy

12 being a corporate and governmental watchdog

13 and taking on powerful people in this

14 industry. But, Miles, I'll remind you of --

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Excuse me for

16 interrupting you, Mark.

17 MR. KASTEL: Yes.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: My apologies,

19 but your comments actually get addressed to

20 the Chair. So, rather than pointing to an

21 individual person around the table, just

22 address the comments to the Chair.
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1 MR. KASTEL: Okay.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

3 MR. KASTEL: I hope we'll turn the

4 clock back.

5 Thank you, Madam Chair.

6 Madam Chair, I'll remind you that

7 Harry Truman, when he was President, said, "If

8 you want a friend in Washington, get a dog." 

9 This is the democratic, small "d", process at

10 work here. It is a wonderful program. The

11 attributes of organics is based on people

12 caring.

13 So, overwhelming negative response

14 to the power grab by the USDA. The changes to

15 the governance and sunset, here's the response

16 from New York State: we need more listening. 

17 So, you contacted all the NGOs. You sit down

18 with us. You schedule a listening session.

19 Is that one minute (referring to

20 signal that time is almost up)?

21 Okay. Can I get my time back?

22 So, the peer review process, we
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1 had one in 2011. The Office of Inspector

2 twice critiqued this program very negatively. 

3 This new ANSI, American National Standards

4 Institute, I hope everybody will read that. 

5 We own the organic label. Is our program

6 doing the best job?

7 Enforcement. You said 400

8 enforcement actions. Only one was willful and

9 worthy of revocation? And where were the

10 names of those companies? We need the

11 enforcement actions to act as a deterrent to

12 help the majority of people that are following

13 the law and acting ethically.

14 I'll wrap up here, Madam Chair.

15 So, we really appreciate you

16 moving these meetings around the country. It

17 gives more farmers access. But we need to do

18 a better job. The problems with a meeting in

19 a demolition zone in San Antonio were

20 horrendous, and there's a 60,000-person

21 convention competing for hotel rooms. I can

22 tell you that there were many organic
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1 stakeholders that wanted to attend that either

2 couldn't get a room or the rooms are now $500.

3 Thank you very much.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

5 much, Mark.

6 MR. KASTEL: Thank you.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

8 presenter is Jim Pierce. And then, it will be

9 Liana Hoodes.

10 MR. KASTEL: Madam Chair, just in

11 case somebody has a question, which they might

12 not, can you poll the Board for that?

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: My apologies. 

14 Is there a question from the Board for Mark? 

15 I apologize.

16 (No response.)

17 MR. KASTEL: Thank you very much.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

19 MR. PIERCE: Good morning.

20 Thank you for announcing the next

21 person on deck, too. That helps us get ready.

22 And in my case, I came in at about
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1 3:15. So, I am going to say the last sentence

2 very slow, Mac.

3 Good morning.

4 I'm Jim Pierce from Oregon Tilth,

5 the best certifier.

6 We are concerned about the current

7 tone of the dialog within the organic

8 community. "We" is intentionally inclusive: 

9 we, the certifiers; we, the producers and

10 handlers; we, the watchdoggers and consumer

11 advocators and the listserv bloggers; we, the

12 NOP staff and NOSB members; we, the crusty old

13 and the starry-eyed new. We are united,

14 championing the same better food system,

15 safeguarding the progress we have made in

16 trying to manage the growth and change of this

17 dynamic organic movement that is growing and

18 changing faster than ever.

19 But with great power comes great

20 responsibility. Peter Parker's Uncle Ben said

21 that to him, but credit the coinage to

22 Voltaire.
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1 We must engage others with

2 respect, patience, and the desire to listen

3 and be understood. We need to embrace

4 courageous conversations and avoid

5 isolationism.

6 Unfortunately, our dialog is

7 growing increasingly unkind, taking on the

8 negative tone of political commercials and

9 winner-take-all, yield-no-quarter talk shows.

10 We are concerned the result is a

11 slippery slide into the same gridlock and can12 kicking that has pervaded and paralyzed our

13 political system.

14 Friends and colleagues, this isn't

15 politics. This is food. And it's time for

16 course correction.

17 Of particular concern are the

18 overly-negative, mean-spirited comments as

19 well as the steady drumbeat that the NOP is

20 now in the hands of agribusiness corporations. 

21 Since its inception, the NOP has been on a

22 trajectory characterized by continuous
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1 improvement, increased clarity, and additional

2 rigor.

3 Leaders lead, if necessary,

4 upsetting the status quo in order to manage

5 growth and change. Mr. McEvoy, as a leader,

6 has stuck his neck out and led the program,

7 knowing that some decisions would be met with

8 opposition as well as appeasement. Now I'm

9 going to stick my neck out and say, "Good

10 job."

11 We agree with most, if not every,

12 NOP decision, but we appreciate the leadership

13 and belief protecting organic integrity guides

14 the decisionmaking process. OTCO's position

15 remains as it is. We listen. We participate. 

16 We collaborate, and we respect the process and

17 its outcome.

18 I'm not talking about drinking

19 Kool-Aid and singing Kumbaya. We all have

20 problems with the program and the standard and

21 with something on the list. But our criticism

22 must be constructive, not destructive.
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1 To you, no hats, no guns, no

2 spitting. Let's use this meeting to begin to

3 rebuild, to unite, and to heal. Reverse the

4 momentum and set the stage for these four fine

5 new recruits.

6 Those of you giving public

7 comment, be respectful and be gracious. 

8 Certainly be critical, be opinionated, and be

9 convincing in your ideas. There is mission10 critical work to be done, and while we might

11 not always be in agreement on the route, we

12 are on the same road and we cannot afford to

13 have the divisive politics that are

14 constipating Congress to become part of the

15 NOP.

16 We need to leave here on

17 solidarity for the noble cause that brought us

18 together. With great hope and with great

19 responsibility, this week's meeting will

20 reflect plenty of lively discussion, but also

21 a balance of voices, resulting in constructive

22 proceedings.
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1 Thank -- no, I'm not going to go

2 there.

3 (Laughter.)

4 Thank you.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Jim.

6 Questions for Jim Pierce?

7 (No response.)

8 MR. PIERCE: All right. Thank

9 you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

11 much.

12 The next speaker is Liana Hoodes,

13 with Jim Gerritsen on deck.

14 MS. HOODES: Good morning, all.

15 I am Liana Hoodes. I'm the

16 Executive Director of the National Organic

17 Coalition, a national alliance of farmers,

18 environmentalists, consumers, and industry

19 members, working for organic integrity.

20 Thanks to the National Organic

21 Program and the NOSB, all of you, and

22 specifically, to Joe, Jay, John, and Wendy for
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1 your five-year term. We appreciate it.

2 I want to begin with a comment

3 from NOC's dairy farmers. Thanks for moving

4 the origin of livestock rule. Please actively

5 shepherd it, the regulation, through the

6 agencies and places it needs to go. It has

7 got to happen.

8 I will start with a correction of

9 NOC's written comments. Apparently, I got

10 really confused in our comments. For the

11 materials I-mallic acid and sodium acid

12 pyrophosphate, we used the phrase "allow to

13 sunset". We were clearly advocating that

14 these materials come off the list. Yet, I

15 have been corrected that now "allow to sunset"

16 means allow to stay on the list. Is that

17 true? Under what usage of the word does

18 "sunsetting" a substance mean status quo? 

19 It's nonsensical and is clearly not the intent

20 of the framers of OFPA.

21 This speaks to my next issue about

22 organic's added values. Obviously, health and
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1 environment are universally accepted. Social

2 justice is not in the U.S. definition, but

3 worldwide is a value.

4 But we are leaving out another

5 significant value, transparency. Transparency

6 is inherent in this U.S. Organic Program. It

7 is what the consumers want. The GMO labeling

8 pitch, we have right to know what's in our

9 food.

10 Organic provides that transparency

11 much more comprehensively than any other

12 label. Prohibits GMOs and toxic pesticide.

13 There are twice-a-year NOSB

14 meetings with public dockets, a website that

15 notes every synthetic and more allowed or

16 being proposed in organic. And there's

17 ongoing notice and comment and rulemaking.

18 Organic is, and should be, awash

19 in public transparency. So, let's stop saying

20 that loud and public criticism is hurting

21 organic. This is a democracy, and we should

22 embrace the publicity. Organic should be that
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1 most democratic part of our food supply, and

2 the message should be organic is not about

3 perfection; it is about a transparent path to

4 getting better and better at producing organic

5 food. That is continuous improvement.

6 Are synthetics an exception in

7 organic? Absolutely, but they are

8 specifically allowed to exist in a robust,

9 ongoing review process. Nowhere else in the

10 food supply can we know precisely what is in

11 our food.

12 Yet, increasingly, USDA policies

13 have sought to limit this transparency. For

14 instance, NOC's comments on materials, we

15 often are saying no to these materials, but we

16 are saying no to the incomplete process rather

17 than really objecting to the materials.

18 If the public is going to have

19 extra time in this new process to comment,

20 give us the information. And NOSB's new CBI

21 policy is great, and it needs to apply to all

22 materials.
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1 For instance, many basic terms are

2 not clear or defined, such as fermentation,

3 ancillary substances, and microorganisms. Our

4 review of materials is limited for lack of

5 that information.

6 Comprehensive sunset review of

7 hundreds of old materials is necessary. It

8 will be massive work and will set a precedent

9 for the future that no other part of the food

10 supply will be able to duplicate. We, as

11 advocates, must support NOP in finding

12 resources to accomplish it, but the task must

13 happen.

14 NOC is very disappointed that

15 during the tenure of Jay Feldman, a national

16 expert on inerts, who proposed an efficient

17 inerts review process years ago, the

18 Department has not moved forward with review

19 of any inerts during his tenure.

20 Major kudos to NOSB in working on

21 the definition of genetic engineering,

22 refining the excluded methods. This will be
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1 difficult, really difficult. Let's embrace

2 the controversy and march organic ahead of GE

3 labeling.

4 You are also leading the way in

5 examining contamination of inputs in organic. 

6 Yes, it exists and it will increase.

7 (Signal that time is almost

8 expired.)

9 Okay. Can I just finish that?

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Finish the

11 sentence. Go ahead.

12 MS. HOODES: Yes. But, by facing

13 this contamination head-on, we can work to

14 limit it from all sources without tying the

15 hands of farmers. That is the point I really

16 want to make. We can look at the

17 contamination, but not limit what farmers need

18 to do.

19 So, thank you.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

21 Liana.

22 Are there questions for Liana from
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1 the Board?

2 (No response.)

3 All right.

4 MS. HOODES: And I need my T-shirt

5 or mug.

6 (Laughter.)

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

8 The next speaker is Jim Gerritsen,

9 and on deck is Darren Abernathy.

10 MR. GERRITSEN: Good morning.

11 I'm Jim Gerritsen.

12 (Signal that time is almost

13 expired.)

14 (Laughter.)

15 Where's my T-shirt?

16 (Laughter.)

17 Okay. I figured I would be a

18 little bit different. We are certified

19 organic farmers. We have been certified

20 organic farmers for 32 years, farming

21 organically for 38, and I wanted to show you

22 our farm in extreme northern Maine.
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1 What you are seeing there is we

2 are right on the edge of the north Maine

3 woods. In our six-by-six-mile township there

4 are eight residents. We are in the most

5 sparsely-populated county east of the

6 Mississippi River. There are six of the eight

7 residents in our township, six-by-six-mile

8 township. And they are standing in a field of

9 certified organic Dorinny sweet seed corn.

10 What we make our living from is

11 raising organic seed. It is a family farm. 

12 Every person you see up there is working hard

13 doing my work while I am here at this meeting.

14 But the important thing that I

15 want to say about that corn is that the market

16 demand is for freedom from GE content. At our

17 own expense, we get that tested, and this corn

18 crop again has tested free of GE content. And

19 it is that isolation which allows us to grow

20 that corn.

21 But our main crop is growing

22 organic seed potatoes. And we market that
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1 through a mail order catalog and web store,

2 and we have customers in all 50 states, both

3 certified organic farmers and organic

4 gardeners that want good seed in their home.

5 But I am here today to speak as

6 the President of the industry trade group

7 Organic Seed Growers and Trade Association. 

8 I am one of the founding members of that

9 organization. We have been to NOSB meetings

10 before, providing testimony. We have spoken

11 with your Subcommittees, providing background.

12 We believe in the NOSB, but we are

13 very troubled by recent developments here and

14 by the behavior of the USDA, which we believe

15 is illegitimate. Essentially, the NOSB's

16 primary responsibility is to the organic

17 community, and that responsibility is bounded

18 by the language in the OFPA. And that

19 establishes the overarching goal of protecting

20 the interests of organic consumers and organic

21 farmers. It doesn't mean following the USDA

22 when they are in error or they are
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1 misbehaving.

2 And these come down to important

3 aspects like some sunset is sunset. It is in

4 the law. It is clear to everyone in our

5 organization. USDA was in error changing

6 this, and the NOSB has to be independent and

7 stand up to them.

8 We also object to the idea of the

9 USDA stacking the NOSB with members that don't

10 represent the enumerated interests on the

11 Board. It is illegitimate to have non12 owner/operator family farmers serving in

13 positions of the four farmer positions. It is

14 illegitimate to pass over the long-time

15 members of the organic community and, instead,

16 place, through appointment, members of

17 corporations where organic sales are only a

18 small percentage of their overall sales.

19 It brings upon a disrespect for

20 the organic label and for those of us making

21 our living from it and those of us who have

22 invested our life in organic. It is something
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1 that we will not abide. We will resist it,

2 and that is why we are here testifying that we

3 support the NOSB and their behavior and their

4 activity. And you need courage to stand up

5 for what's right.

6 Thank you.

7 I would be happy to answer any

8 questions that you have.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Jim.

10 Questions?

11 Jay?

12 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thanks, Jim.

13 I hope the population drop in your

14 town while you're away doesn't become a

15 problem.

16 But I have a question about

17 genetic engineering because you have done so

18 much work on this topic. You're familiar, of

19 course, with the work that the Board has done

20 in terms of sea purity discussion documents,

21 and now we have a document for discussion on

22 contamination, farm inputs, and managing that.
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1 Where do you think this Board

2 should be going to address this broad issue of

3 genetically-engineered contamination?

4 MR. GERRITSEN: Yes, I could talk

5 all day on that, Jay. Thank you for asking

6 the question.

7 I think it is a very complicated

8 issue. I think that the NOSB is the advisor

9 to the USDA NOP. USDA has a responsibility

10 for ensuring the welfare of all American

11 farmers, including organic farmers.

12 They have failed in their mission

13 to not -- for example, on the issue of GMO

14 vaccines, organic does not deal with GMO, but

15 how can we know if the USDA does not require

16 the manufacturers of vaccines to be honest

17 with the public and identify what is GMO?

18 So, the USDA really, I think, has

19 been failing in its obligations. In addition,

20 the USDA has an obligation to protect the

21 private property rights of organic farmers. 

22 When it comes to contamination, be it
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1 genetically-engineered trespass or be it

2 chemical trespass, we have a right to farm the

3 way we choose on our farms, and USDA needs to

4 stand up and protect us in this right.

5 And this affects the entire

6 organic community, because if we, as organic

7 farmers, are not protected in that right to

8 grow the way that we want, then the idea of

9 organic -- consumers, they basically lost

10 their access to clean organic food.

11 So, to answer your question, I

12 think the NOSB has to require better

13 collaboration somehow with the USDA. The

14 principle that has to be at play is that the

15 polluter pays.

16 You know, that Dorinny seed corn

17 that I sent off for testing, it cost us $200,

18 and that comes right from our bottom line. It

19 comes right out of our pocket. Yet, we are

20 the innocent victims of potential

21 contamination. Yet, in order to put organic

22 seed into the trade system, we need to verify
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1 that we are free of GE contamination. The

2 cost for that testing, the cost of the sample,

3 the cost of the damage when our members get

4 contaminated by GE, that should all be borne

5 by the biotech industry, which is the polluter

6 and which USDA APHIS has allowed, through

7 regulation or deregulation without any

8 limitation -- and that is irresponsible. It

9 does not protect the rights of farmers that

10 don't want anything to do with GMOs.

11 So, I think that NOSB somehow has

12 to get USDA off their chair and get them to

13 actually protect the farmers that they are --

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

16 Zea, and then, Harold.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thanks, Jim.

18 Along the same lines with Jay's

19 question, you heard -- and, undoubtedly, read

20 through our excluded methods terminology

21 discussion document. And we identify some of

22 the challenges of even determining what
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1 varieties and what inputs are genetically

2 engineered.

3 While we, of course, would like to

4 prohibit all of this in organics, but how do

5 we prohibit something where we can't identify

6 what it is? And so, I am wondering if you

7 have any insights on how we would be able to

8 say we were to change the policy on cell

9 fusion for Brassica hybrids and how we would

10 be able to find and identify those or the

11 inbred lines that may have been produced with

12 genetic engineering that, then, have gone into

13 both organic and conventional seed hybrids. 

14 And I wonder if you have any suggestions on

15 that.

16 MR. GERRITSEN: Well, beyond the

17 four-minute limitation, I did want to express

18 my support for, first off, organic

19 certification system being a process-based

20 system. I think that is sound.

21 Second off, we believe that the

22 chart concept for coming up with the excluded
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1 methods to try to differentiate what is an

2 acceptable technology that organic farmers can

3 employ and what is not, that that is heading

4 in the right direction.

5 I think it is going to be

6 difficult, and it is something that is going

7 to have to be updated on a regular basis

8 because nothing is standing still.

9 In terms of something like cell

10 fusion, we were disappointed when USDA

11 unilaterally declared that that was okay. We

12 thought that that violation of due process was

13 inappropriate. It should have been sent out

14 for public comment.

15 But that is one of many. I think

16 there are going to be many coming down the

17 line. But I think, essentially -- and this is

18 something that we are developing within

19 Organic Seed Growers and Trade Association --

20 we have to come up with a definition of what

21 is legitimate organic breeding practices. 

22 Once we go from that, then we can identify
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1 what practices do not jive with that correct

2 definition. And I think cell fusion, among

3 others, is going to come up as being a

4 practice that is not legitimate within the

5 organic community.

6 Does that speak to your question?

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes, and this

8 is the beginning of the dialog that cell

9 fusion will be included in in the future, this

10 paper. First, we have to get the definition

11 and structure down --

12 MR. GERRITSEN: Yes.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: -- and then, we

14 will look at the terms.

15 But thank you, and we hope you

16 will continue to give input on this subject.

17 MR. GERRITSEN: Thank you.

18 MEMBER AUSTIN: I'm okay. Jean,

19 I'm okay.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

21 speaker is Darren Abernathy, and on deck is

22 Dr. Lisa Bunin.
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1 MR. ABERNATHY: Good morning,

2 ladies and gentlemen of the Board.

3 My name is Darren Abernathy. I am

4 the Production Manager for Reiter Brothers in

5 Oxnard, California. We are a grower of all

6 four berry types, blacks, blues, straws, and

7 ras. We do have a large organic program which

8 I am also in charge of.

9 I am here to request that you

10 leave sulfurous acid on the list of approved

11 materials for organic production. Our family12 owned company has been farming since 1868, and

13 our main focus is to be good stewards of the

14 ground that we farm. And the use of sulfurous

15 acid has been a great tool for healthy soil.

16 I won't spend a whole lot of time

17 talking about the chemistry. I can leave that

18 for Terry to talk about, but I am sure you

19 guys all know it. It is pretty basic and one

20 that I believe is organic.

21 What I would like to discuss with

22 you are the exciting changes and progress that
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1 we have made in our organic program since

2 sulfurous acid was approved. This process and

3 the product has given us the ability to

4 accomplish our goal of reducing pH, so that

5 nutrients are more readily available for

6 uptake by our plants.

7 Another benefit is that it

8 dissolves and leaches harmful salts from our

9 soils that previously roadblocked our plants

10 from producing yields that would maintain a

11 sound business. By reducing these harmful

12 salts, we have reduced our irrigation volumes

13 as well. Since our soils are now opened up,

14 we have actually provided a more uniform

15 wetting pattern and reduced our overall usage

16 per year, which we have actually been

17 applauded for by local water agencies as well

18 as the Groundwater Management Agency in the

19 area.

20 The applied product has a pH of

21 roughly 2.5. So, it is like handling Coca22 Cola. So, I mean, in California, you know, we
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1 are held to pretty stringent rules other than

2 the NOSB, but it is definitely a better avenue

3 for applying acid in the field versus other

4 options. As a company, we are very happy in

5 the fact that this product is safe.

6 Let's see. One thing that I did

7 want to explain to you was the fact that,

8 since we have been using it, our yields and

9 quality of plants that we have produced have

10 really gone up. The benefits of this is,

11 obviously, increasing yields, but we have

12 actually started spraying less. Why? Well,

13 when we build a stronger plant, we build

14 better cell structure within a plant. So, we

15 don't really have to battle as much with

16 insect, disease, et cetera, and things like

17 that, which I think is really good, too,

18 because it lowers our carbon footprint on the

19 ground. Because, quite honestly, the carbon

20 footprint in organics is very high. We have

21 to send a tractor down the furrows a lot more

22 than we do in a conventional setting.
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1 Let's see. So, I'm a little bit

2 nervous that it is going to be taking off the

3 list because prior to this we were actually

4 thinking about eliminating our organic

5 program. And why? Well, it was because we

6 were producing those weak-quality plants. Now

7 we have plants that actually increase our

8 organic program. And if this is removed, I am

9 really concerned that we probably won't do so.

10 Being a big proponent of organic,

11 you know, I think that it is a good thing to

12 produce more organic. I mean, we are a

13 relatively-large company. We farm a lot of

14 conventional acres. We are about 2,000 acres

15 on organic, and the plan is actually to

16 increase that to a little over 5,000 acres.

17 (Signal that time is almost

18 expired.)

19 Can I have one more second?

20 So, please, please continue to

21 protect the organic integrity. I mean, I

22 believe in it. Obviously, everybody in this
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1 room and you guys believe in it. This is

2 something that is really simple and I really

3 don't know why it is being challenged.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

5 Darren.

6 Questions?

7 Jay?

8 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you. That

9 was very helpful testimony. I appreciate you

10 making the trip here.

11 I just have a question about the

12 process from your perspective, having read

13 what is on the agenda of this meeting. What

14 is your impression of what the Subcommittee

15 intended to do with sulfurous acid?

16 MR. ABERNATHY: My impression of

17 what was going to happen was that it was

18 what -- I have heard everybody talking about

19 sunset. My impression was that it was going

20 to be going away.

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. Thank you.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold?
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1 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you for

2 coming and presenting your testimony for us.

3 I think one of the things that we

4 look at is, when we put something on the

5 National List for use, that there benefits

6 that are allowed. You talked about reduction

7 of water --

8 MR. ABERNATHY: Uh-hum.

9 MEMBER AUSTIN: -- increased plant

10 health, increased soil health, availability to

11 the nutrients. If you did not have the

12 ability to use the sulfur burner and create

13 sulfurous acid on the farm, what other

14 alternatives would there be, or would you

15 simply go back to conventional farming?

16 MR. ABERNATHY: The other

17 alternative that exists is citric acid. The

18 problem with citric acid is, again, it is a

19 weaker acid, but it comes from unreliable

20 sources.

21 You know, we analyze everything

22 that we do, everything that we put on the
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1 field. Everything that we get sent to by

2 vendors, we run it through the whole process. 

3 I'm not a chemist, but I pass it by chemists

4 that are in our company.

5 The problem with sulfurous acid

6 (sic) is exactly that. I mean, it is

7 unreliable. It is weak. And, yes, we

8 probably would not increase if we were going

9 to go that route, let alone it is very

10 expensive. It is about $2 a pound. Citric.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Calvin?

12 MEMBER WALKER: Thank you for

13 coming. I enjoyed your testimony.

14 I apologize for not listening at

15 the beginning, a senior moment.

16 Could you share with us the type

17 of crops that you use the sulfuric acid in? 

18 Is it blueberries?

19 MR. ABERNATHY: We use sulfuric

20 acid on all four crops; basically, on

21 straws -- sorry -- strawberries, we call them

22 "straws", but straws, blacks, blues, ras. But
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1 strawberries, raspberries, blackberries, we

2 are trying to get down to a 6.5 pH. On blues

3 or blueberries, we are trying to get down to

4 a 5.5.

5 Now why are we trying to get into

6 those different ranges? Because that is the

7 natural, basically, soil habitat of the plant. 

8 For example, a blueberry, it is an understory

9 plant that comes from rainy climates. So, for

10 example, in Oregon, we farm in Oregon as well.

11 The pH of the soils in Oregon are 5.6, 5.7. 

12 Going back to what Terry is talking about, the

13 pH of natural rainwater is 5.6. What we are

14 doing inside this burner is the same. I mean,

15 it is the same as rain.

16 So, by farming these crops at the

17 right pH, we are able to get the right

18 elements into the plant and get the right cell

19 structure to build a strong plant.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

21 questions?

22 (No response.)
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1 Thank you very much.

2 MR. ABERNATHY: Thank you.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

4 speaker is Dr. Lisa Bunin, followed by Jake

5 Lewin.

6 DR. BUNIN: Good morning.

7 My name is Lisa Bunin. I am the

8 Organic Policy Director at the Center for Food

9 Safety, a public interest organization with a

10 membership base of a half-a-million people

11 nationwide.

12 My remarks address ocean-based

13 fish farming, compost, gellan gum, and whole

14 algal flour.

15 Last week, the Center for Food

16 Safety released its report "Like Oil and

17 Water: Ocean-Based Fish Farms and Organic

18 Don't Mix". The report provides scientific

19 evidence to explain why fish farmed at sea can

20 never be certified organic.

21 Even though the NOSB has discussed

22 aquaculture for more than a decade, neither
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1 the Aquaculture Animal Task Force nor the

2 Aquaculture Working Group has satisfactorily

3 resolved four thorny issues.

4 One, how can harm to wild fish and

5 marine ecosystems from the spread of

6 parasites, pathogens, and diseases carried by

7 farmed fish be prevented? Our investigative

8 report documents 24 million reported escapes

9 in two decades, demonstrating that escapes are

10 unavoidable. This represents a tip of the

11 iceberg, since governments not only allow

12 self-reporting, but they also allow a certain

13 number of escapes to go unreported.

14 Second, how can organic

15 regulations permit the farming of migratory

16 fish such as the economically-coveted Atlantic

17 and Pacific salmon? Caging them would

18 severely constrain their natural and

19 instinctual behavior of swimming long

20 distances between fresh and salt waters. This

21 goes against organic's animal welfare and

22 stewardship requirements.
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1 Third, how can fish farms at sea

2 contain, monitor, and control inputs and

3 outputs when seawater regularly flows in and

4 out of the facility? How can those unknown

5 inputs and outputs, some of which are

6 synthetics prohibited under OFPA, be

7 accurately documented in an organic system

8 plan?

9 And finally, how can feed

10 consisting of wild-caught fish or their

11 byproducts be considered part of an organic

12 practice, when all other organic animals are

13 required to be feed a 100-percent organic

14 diet?

15 When the Aquatic Animal Task Force

16 warned in 2001 that some of these issues may

17 not be resolvable and that they contravene

18 OFPA, the aquaculture industry successfully

19 lobbied to halt the development of

20 regulations. They warned that to do otherwise

21 would cast serious doubt on the potential of

22 some major species, most notably salmon, to be
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1 certified organic.

2 The assumption seemed to be that,

3 if regulations were to be delayed, tough

4 questions about the viability of organic

5 aquaculture would somehow vanish. And in a

6 way, they did. Four years later in 2005, the

7 AWG released a report with the thorny issues

8 mentioned, but their importance minimized in

9 the recommendations it made to the NOP for

10 organic standards development.

11 CFS has reviewed documents

12 produced by the NOSB and its Work Groups. 

13 Nowhere have we seen either group

14 scientifically evaluate the impacts of ocean15 based aquaculture against the principles and

16 standards of organic production.

17 These groups have also failed to

18 objectively assess the technological

19 feasibility of resolving outstanding problems

20 known to be associated with ocean-based fish

21 farming.

22 CFS's report demonstrates the
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1 impossibility of rectifying them in a way that

2 would allow ocean-based fish farms to qualify

3 as certified organic. Farming fish at sea can

4 never meet the high bar of integrity that is

5 integral to all organic systems of production.

6 CFS urges the NOP and the NOSB to

7 advise the Secretary of Agriculture to

8 withdraw plans to allow ocean-based fish

9 farming in organic aquaculture regulations now

10 in development.

11 Moving on to compost, compost is

12 vital to the success of organic farming, but

13 contamination with prohibited substances is a

14 problem that we all know exists and must be

15 addressed head-on. It is essential to assess

16 the root causes, beginning with the

17 identification and elimination of high-risk

18 sources of feedstock contamination. Solutions

19 must not overburden farmers or leave them

20 without inputs for their compost. We urge the

21 NOSB to keep the conversation going and keep

22 it transparent.
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1 With respect to gellan gum and

2 whole algal flour, it is CFS's position that

3 no substance should be considered for

4 relisting, or listing, if the confidential

5 business information in the original petition

6 is not revealed at sunset.

7 Thank you.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

9 Are there questions for Lisa?

10 Colehour?

11 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you, and

12 thank you, Lisa, for your presentation. And

13 thank you for passing this document around.

14 And what is occurring to me, when

15 I glance through it briefly and I look at the

16 references, is the fact that in my

17 conversations over the past several years

18 related to aquaculture within the NOSB, it is

19 unclear to me what research or science, when

20 I ask about it or talk about it, exists.

21 And I am wondering -- I can see

22 some references here, but I just wonder, are
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1 there other studies like this? I just don't

2 know where we could be going or looking for

3 more information besides this, which I think

4 looks great, but if you can --

5 DR. BUNIN: Yes. As you can see,

6 we have drawn from quite a wide range of

7 references. I do have one study that I think

8 is one of the best studies out there. And it

9 is by Stephanie Yu-Codke. She looks at. And

10 I think I would highly recommend that the

11 Board take a look at this; also, the NOSB.

12 I am happy, also, to provide any

13 original references, if that is what you would

14 like. I could put together a list with some

15 links, and I would be happy to share it with

16 the Board.

17 Thanks for that.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jay, did you

19 have a question?

20 MEMBER FELDMAN: No.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Other

22 questions for Lisa?
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1 (No response.)

2 Okay, thank you.

3 DR. BUNIN: Thanks.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

5 speaker is Jake Lewin, followed by Jo Ann

6 Baumgartner.

7 MR. LEWIN: Hi, everybody.

8 My name is Jake Lewin. I'm the

9 President of CCOF Certification Services, LLC. 

10 We are the nonprofit certification arm of CCOF

11 and the largest certifier under the NOP.

12 Jim Pierce's sentiments really

13 resonated with me, maybe not the best

14 certifier business, but certainly the rest of

15 it.

16 (Laughter.)

17 We certify about 3,000 operations

18 in 43 states and three countries, including

19 about 2,000 farms and 1,000 processors. In

20 2014, we will perform about 4,000 inspections

21 with 64 inspectors. And within our ranks, of

22 course, we have large and small operations,
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1 including about 1400 small farms.

2 So, I am really here to applaud

3 the NOSB's consideration of soil conservation

4 issues. These issues speak to why myself and

5 many of us are really here at the most

6 fundamental level.

7 But, as a certifier, these are

8 nuanced and complicated issues to address,

9 particularly in a broad inspection context

10 that includes all other aspects of organic

11 standards, recordkeeping, and more. I can

12 tell you that CCOF takes these issues

13 seriously and encourages our inspectors to

14 observe them.

15 CCOF can, has, and will issue non16 compliance when natural resources are not

17 maintained or improved. Most commonly, this

18 is really identified around erosion issues. 

19 They are the most easy to see, particularly

20 when a highly-qualified inspector is present

21 at the right time of year. It is not uncommon

22 for us to require the operation to work with
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1 NRCS or RCD.

2 However, we would prefer to do a

3 better job in a more collaborative environment

4 with farmers. So, in addition to addressing

5 natural resources in the annual inspection

6 context, we encourage NOSB, when they bring

7 this back, if, to recommend that certifiers be

8 authorized to perform inspections primarily

9 focused on natural resources and soil

10 conservation, say, every four years. These

11 could include soil, biodiversity soil tests,

12 and issues of concern that are best managed in

13 long cycles on a farm. Don't worry; we would

14 still do our full regular inspections.

15 But we believe that covering all

16 aspects of compliance at every inspection

17 reaches a level of diminishing returns,

18 particularly when better outcomes and more

19 thorough observations are recommended by NOP

20 and NOSB on an ongoing basis.

21 So, this would allow us to use our

22 best inspectors and deliver better results
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1 over time. So, we are just basically looking

2 for a new model to do better work.

3 With regard to the contamination

4 issues document, we have addressed it in our

5 comments and generally think our efforts are

6 best placed on changing policies in

7 agriculture generally and not placing

8 burdensome limits on organic farmers based on

9 theoretical issues.

10 We ask you to not hold them

11 accountable for external forces that are

12 demonstrating every day that they are the

13 alternative to. The majority of these are

14 generally beyond the responsibilities of

15 organic farmers to address. So, instead,

16 let's focus on the practices organic farmers

17 use and their contribution to the earth and

18 agriculture.

19 Regarding materials issues, we

20 provided a number of comments, primarily

21 demonstrating where in CCOF we know operators

22 are affected or use materials, or whatnot. 
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1 And these are people's lives. As certifier,

2 we know more than most what that means, and we

3 ask you to take it into account in your

4 Committee deliberations, hear each other out,

5 vote your conscience, and let the process and

6 standards move forward. Please don't mire the

7 process in procedural gamesmanship.

8 And I'm happy to take questions.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

10 Questions?

11 Harold?

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: Do you know if you

13 certify anybody that is using tragacanth gum?

14 MR. LEWIN: We would have

15 addressed that in our comments, and Zea is

16 telling me no.

17 (Laughter.)

18 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. Thank you. 

19 Thank you, Zea, for the assist.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

21 questions for Jake?

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: Hi, Jake. Thanks
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1 for your comments.

2 On the contamination issue --

3 MR. LEWIN: Yes?

4 MEMBER FELDMAN: -- similar to the

5 GMO issue and sea purity issue, it wasn't my

6 impression -- and this is something I want to

7 verify with you -- that the document even

8 implied that it was headed in the direction of

9 holding growers accountable for contamination.

10 The question really was -- and

11 this is where I would like to get your input

12 -- do you think it is an important

13 conversation in the organic community as a

14 means of finding a solution that is not

15 burdensome to farmers and that does not have

16 fallout in the marketplace to have this

17 discussion on potential contamination to farm

18 inputs, with the hope that we might, as a

19 community, come together and figure out a way

20 to prevent it or control it better on behalf

21 of farmers and those reliant on the inputs?

22 MR. LEWIN: Fundamentally, well,
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1 for one thing, the contamination issues

2 document, conversations are fine to have; I

3 think it is a dangerous territory to quote

4 bloggers as a source for conversation.

5 After that, a lot of what was in

6 that particular document was just overly

7 broad.

8 MEMBER FELDMAN: So, a more

9 focused discussion, though, with experts that

10 can help pinpoint real issues of concern, is

11 that valid ground from a certifier's

12 perspective?

13 MR. LEWIN: I think organic

14 farmers contribute more in what they do and

15 how they do it, and that getting overly

16 reductionist or analytical with regards to

17 testing leads to diminishing returns and isn't

18 really in the big picture.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

20 Additional comments?

21 (No response.)

22 Thank you, Jake.
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1 MR. LEWIN: Sure. Thank you very

2 much.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

4 speaker is Jo Ann Baumgartner, and that will

5 be followed by Mark LeJeune.

6 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Hello. I'm Jo

7 Ann Baumgartner with the Wild Farm Alliance. 

8 We promote a healthy, viable agriculture that

9 helps protect and restore wild nature.

10 As a reminder, the NOP Natural

11 Resource Standard requires that operators

12 maintain soil, water, wetlands, woodlands, and

13 wildlife. Organic production definition

14 includes conserving biodiversity. The

15 preamble says that the word "conserve" means

16 the producer must initiate practices to

17 support biodiversity and compliance is

18 required.

19 Thanks to the NOSB for addressing

20 soil conservation compliance. Highly-erodible

21 land is a serious issue.

22 We recommend that the NOP require
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1 some information generated by NRCS be used in

2 the inspection process, but only when the

3 producer is involved. So that any limitations

4 to NRCS in understanding holistic systems will

5 be fairly addressed.

6 Therefore, we recommend yes for

7 Question 10, that the producer should be

8 required to communicate conservation

9 information to the certifier, but not just

10 from NRCS, also from other kinds of

11 conservation organizations.

12 ATL is actually one of many

13 critical conservation issues that needs to be

14 addressed. Others include farm bill provision

15 swampbuster and sodsaver and high-value

16 conservation lands. These are natural

17 habitats that have been identified as having

18 outstanding importance due to their

19 environmental biodiversity and landscape

20 values.

21 The NOP three-year waiting rule

22 for land with pesticides incentivizes farmers
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1 to convert pesticide-free high-value

2 conservation areas to organic production

3 because they can do it quickly. This has to

4 change for high-value conservation lands and

5 come into alignment with sodsaver and with

6 swampbuster farm bill provisions.

7 In 2012 alone, nearly 400,000

8 acres of grasslands and other newly-broken

9 lands were converted to cropland nationally. 

10 Some part of these acres were obviously

11 organic.

12 This past winter we surveyed and

13 interviewed over 50 certification personnel,

14 with the help of IOIA and others, and it was

15 reported that only 55 percent integrate

16 conservation in organic in a meaningful way,

17 addressing all of these issues. Many might

18 know one subject, for instance, soil

19 conservation, but not another. Like they

20 wouldn't know what wetlands were.

21 NOP regulations require

22 certification personnel have experience,
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1 training, and education in that which they

2 inspect or review, including conservation. We

3 request that the CACS work on a recommendation

4 for rigorous development of conservation

5 education, training, and experience for

6 certification personnel in a way that ensures

7 credibility.

8 The CACS could help determine what

9 baseline conservation knowledge is required

10 and determine how Continuing Education Units

11 for organic certification personnel would

12 ensure continual improvement.

13 The NOP's review audit, published

14 this summer, that is used when accrediting

15 certifiers, has a critical issue missing. We

16 request that biodiversity and natural resource

17 standard 205.200 be added.

18 And finally, I want to give you an

19 update to FDA's re-proposed produce rule. 

20 They are now not requiring fencing or

21 destroying animal habitat or otherwise

22 clearing farm borders. So, that is good for
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1 organic because we rely on and are required to

2 conserve biological diversity.

3 Thanks.

4 Any questions?

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Jo

6 Ann.

7 Questions for Jo Ann?

8 (No response.)

9 No? Okay. Thank you very much.

10 The next speaker is Mark LeJeune,

11 and with Ib Hagston on deck.

12 MR. LeJEUNE: Hi. My name is Mark

13 LeJeune. I have participated in some capacity

14 as a registrant of NOP-compliant crop inputs

15 for the past 11 years. I have watched the

16 program evolve in many ways, some good, some

17 bad. Most of my concerns with the program

18 from the perspective of a crop input

19 manufacturer have revolved around the fair and

20 applied treatment of fertilizer products that

21 contain ingredients that the program has

22 determined are synthetic. Phos acid, sulphur
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1 dioxide, and potassium hydroxide are the three

2 most prominent of these synthetic ingredients

3 due to the widespread use of the fertilizer

4 products that contain them.

5 I work for a company that is

6 commercializing a technology and product that

7 converts supermarket food waste into a

8 pasteurized liquid fertilizer and feed using

9 an enzyme process. We have interest and

10 demand in an organic version of this product.

11 I am here today because I am

12 unable to register our product utilizing the

13 full complement of industry enzymes available

14 to us to make a high-quality input for organic

15 agriculture. These enzymes are approved for

16 use in organic food production. This means

17 they utilize non-GMO production organisms and

18 contain generally-recognized as safe food

19 preservatives to preserve their functionality.

20 These are the same preservatives

21 that the NOP recognized are necessary to be

22 present in enzymes in the original
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1 determination for allowance for food

2 production. These enzymes and preservatives

3 are what the NOP is allowing manufacturers to

4 put in food products, which, in turn, are

5 ingested by consumers who buy these products

6 under the USDA Organic Marketing Program.

7 For reasons that, respectfully,

8 defy logic, these same enzymes and

9 preservatives are not allowed to be present,

10 utilized as processing aids in varying

11 concentrations from parts per billion to 40

12 parts per million in the final product

13 formulation in order to manufacture a

14 sustainable fertilizer derived from food

15 waste, a problem that desperately needs

16 solutions and a product that addresses an

17 industry in need of more fertilizer tools for

18 its growers.

19 As a small company, we are faced

20 with the prospect of the lengthy process of

21 petitioning the NOP to approve its use as a

22 processing aid for our crop input. We have
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1 consulted with the NOP and have been advised

2 that materials that are approved for organic

3 food production, of course, cannot be

4 considered approved for crop inputs by

5 reviewers outside of the normal process of

6 determining synthetic substances, which is

7 flawed in our view.

8 Also in our view, it would save

9 enormous amounts of time and energy if the

10 program would simply allow substances approved

11 for consumption as organic to be allowable to

12 be put into products that are utilized in the

13 ground.

14 Thank you all. So, I'm good.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

16 Mark.

17 Questions?

18 Zea? Sorry.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

20 It is a little bit less of a

21 question than a comment. Your last sentence,

22 you said, if we would just simply allow
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1 substances that can be used in food to be used

2 in crop inputs, but that is not simple at all. 

3 That involves changing the federal rule as we

4 have it. And I suggest to you that you

5 turning in a petition for these products is

6 far more simple than us trying to change the

7 rule.

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. LeJEUNE: Okay.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That was wise

12 advice.

13 (Laughter.)

14 Any other comments or questions?

15 (No response.)

16 Thank you very much.

17 MR. LeJEUNE: Duly noted. Thank

18 you.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

20 speaker is Ib Hagston, and on deck is Brad

21 Russell.

22 DR. HAGSTON: Good afternoon,
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1 Madam Chair and Distinguished Members.

2 I am Dr. Ig Hagston, and I speak

3 on behalf of the Independent Organic

4 Inspectors Association.

5 The NOSB Committee is to be

6 complimented for the initiative to address

7 soil conservation practices that can improve

8 soil and water quality.

9 As organic inspectors, we are used

10 to assess production practices and to ensure

11 that NOP requires continual improvements take

12 place.

13 I am addressing the 10 Committee

14 questions from the perspective of a TSP who

15 has conducted more than 50 conservation plans

16 and completed more than 2500 organic

17 inspections.

18 Let me start with an illustrative

19 story as a TSP conservation planner to NRCS. 

20 Yes, RUSLE2, the standard requirement by

21 funding by NRCS could be helpful since the

22 agency cannot pay the producer on farm
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1 improvements unless their total annual soil

2 loss per acre, or the T-value, is below five. 

3 It is, however, a common misconception among

4 NRCS conservation agents that they upfront

5 believe that the T-value will exceed 20 tons

6 because the farmer wants to use a crop

7 rotation of, for example, corn, soybeans, and

8 wheat with plowing and many crop cultivations.

9 Results from my successfully10 completed CAP138 plan, where the producer used

11 a cover crop between each crop rotation, added

12 significant organic matter to plow down

13 residues while reducing soil, wind, and water

14 erosion. The RUSLE2 analysis revealed a T

15 equal 2.6 for the three-year rotation. Yes,

16 cover crops required by the NOP do work.

17 Next week I am presenting a talk

18 at the American Society of Agronomy's Annual

19 Meeting entitled, "Practical Economic Measures

20 for Assessing Organic Farm Conservation".

21 The availability of most soil

22 health measurements on organic farms will be
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1 minimal, and the interpretation of the data

2 not well-understood by most inspectors or

3 reviewers. Thus, allow me to make three key

4 observations.

5 One, when there are measured soil

6 performance data available, we, as inspectors

7 and certifiers, should utilize them to the

8 best of our ability.

9 Two, let me caution about building

10 a set of expectations around RUSLE2, as only

11 a very small percentage of organic farms will

12 have that data available.

13 Let me encourage certifiers to ask

14 for soil test results and maps with HEL,

15 Highly-Erodible Land indications, so we

16 inspectors can (a) assess the percent organic

17 matter; (b) monitor soil improvement over

18 time, and (c) become aware of errors where

19 special soil loss or erosion potentials are

20 present.

21 Allow me, while I am at the

22 podium, to make a comment about another issue
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1 of the day, namely, use of NOP-approved

2 sulfuric acid as a plant and soil amendment. 

3 The minute amounts of sulfuric acid added via

4 in-row foliar fertilization to improve plant

5 health and to buffer the pH is greatly

6 beneficial, one, to make unproductive soils

7 productive and, two, to save tons of soil

8 sulfur per acre, and, three, to benefit the

9 environment. So, please consider a common10 sense approach to 205.601(j)(2), sulfuric

11 acid, when you deliberate later this week.

12 Again, congratulations on the

13 effort to pursue greater soil improvement and

14 monitoring on organic farms, and thank you for

15 the opportunity to address this prestigious

16 audience. Thank you.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Dr.

18 Hagston.

19 Questions?

20 (No response.)

21 Thank you.

22 DR. HAGSTON: Thank you.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

2 speaker is Brad Russell, and the final speaker

3 before lunch will be Laura Batcha.

4 MR. RUSSELL: Hello. My name is

5 Brad Russell. I am a local Louisvillian. I'm

6 a local musician, stone mason, and I work on

7 a horse farm here in Louisville.

8 I am a member of the Cornucopia

9 Institute, and I am here today to testify as

10 a citizen lobbyist. I have volunteered to

11 help present testimony because I want to

12 ensure the integrity of organic food and the

13 practices and principles thereof.

14 It is very important to me because

15 I have noticed in my lifestyle how much my

16 health has improved just in general from going

17 organic.

18 I would like to comment on the

19 2016 sunset of hydrogen chloride as an allowed

20 synthetic on the National List. Hydrogen

21 chloride is used for the removal of lint from

22 cottonseed to facilitate mechanical planting.
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1 The Cornucopia Institute strongly

2 recommends that a new Technical Review be

3 completed before hydrogen chloride can be

4 considered for relisting. The most recent TR,

5 Technical Review, from 2013 does not discuss

6 current research in mechanical de-linting and

7 the possibility of the use of safer, less8 corrosive acids.

9 The 2013 Technical Review does not

10 discuss the latest research by USDA researcher

11 Greg Holt, who is currently in the final

12 stages of developing a mechanical de-linter. 

13 In 2012, Dr. Holt patented a rotating drum

14 concept for mechanical de-linting. His team

15 now has produced a large prototype capable of

16 de-linting up to 150 pounds of cottonseed per

17 hour. A new TR needs to address what it would

18 take to bring mechanical de-linting from these

19 final research stages into commercial

20 production.

21 There are also de-linting machines

22 currently on market with the L.T. Lincer
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1 Company that do not use hydrogen chloride. 

2 These machines use what is referred to as saw

3 mechanical de-linting, and they also have de4 linters that use diluted sulfuric acid. If

5 these safer alternatives are not viable, we

6 need to know why.

7 There may not ever be an economic

8 incentive for those alternatives to be used by

9 the seed companies unless we remove hydrogen

10 chloride from the list. After speaking with

11 Kelly Pepper of the Texas Organic Cotton

12 Marketing Cooperative, Cornucopia staff

13 understands that all currently commercially14 available organic cottonseed in the U.S. is

15 de-linted by All-Tex Seed Company in

16 Levelland, Texas. And All-Tex Seed Company

17 uses hydrogen chloride in their de-linting

18 process.

19 It is possible that we are looking

20 at a scenario where delisting hydrogen

21 chloride might be the financial incentive that

22 is needed to bring the mechanical de-linting
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1 process to the marketplace. If the mechanical

2 de-linting alternatives are not satisfactory

3 techniques for cottonseed de-linting, then

4 more extensive documentation of the

5 inadequacies of this alternative must be

6 documented.

7 Without a new TR, it is difficult

8 to make this determination. How any of us

9 properly evaluate these substances without

10 that critical information, I don't know.

11 But thank you for allowing me to

12 be here and to present my testimony. If you

13 have any questions about this, please speak

14 with one of the Cornucopia staff members

15 today.

16 Thank you again.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

18 Brad.

19 Laura Batcha.

20 MS. BATCHA: Hi, and hopefully,

21 I'll get you all right off to lunch.

22 I'm Laura Batcha, and I am the
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1 Executive Director of the Organic Trade

2 Association. OTA represents over 6500

3 businesses, and half of those are small

4 businesses reporting less than a million

5 dollars in organic sales per year.

6 OTA members represent the

7 diversity and the full value chain of organic,

8 including farmers, shippers, processors,

9 certifiers, farmer associations, distributors,

10 importers, exporters, retailers, and others. 

11 OTA membership has a legal definition within

12 our bylaws. It is not simply a list or

13 supporters. Trade members each receive one

14 vote in our Board of Directors elections, and

15 OTA members are represented either through

16 direct membership in the Association or

17 through strategic partnerships with regional

18 organic producer organizations.

19 The organic standards are rooted

20 in the use of cultural, biological practices

21 to combat pests, weeds, diseases, and to

22 prevent contamination of organic products. It
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1 is critical that NOSB take the lead on

2 refining the practice standards, and we

3 welcome the work on assessing soil

4 conservation and contamination of inputs.

5 NOSB's other critical role is the

6 gatekeeper of the National List. Organic

7 farmers and processors aim to bring their

8 products to market using preventative

9 practices and with a federally-mandated

10 preference for organic ingredients.

11 The list of tools for producers

12 contained on the National List represents the

13 best and least-toxic technology our food

14 system has developed. And these tools must

15 receive regular scrutiny by NOSB and the

16 sector at large to assure they will meet

17 organic expectations.

18 Striking the balance between

19 bolstering the practice standards and

20 judicious evaluation of each tool's continued

21 acceptance in organic production is NOSB's

22 challenge moving forward.
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1 The organic sector is a good

2 steward of the National List, and farmers,

3 handlers, ingredient suppliers, and food4 makers continue to innovate by developing

5 alternatives to synthetics on the National

6 List.

7 OTA strongly supports its move

8 towards organic alternatives wherever possible

9 and also defends the judicious use of

10 synthetic tools, where necessary to keep

11 organic growing and viable.

12 In addition to the sunset review

13 of materials on the National List, the

14 petition process is open at anytime. And OTA,

15 on behalf of its membership, is filing two

16 petitions with USDA this week.

17 The first petition seeks the

18 removal of lignin sulfanate as a floatation

19 agent in post-harvest handling for the

20 National List as a synthetic substance allowed

21 in crop production under 205.601. Based on

22 polling of packing facilities, it appears the
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1 material is no longer essential and can be

2 removed from the list.

3 The second petition is to annotate

4 the listing for natural flavors under 205.605. 

5 Natural flavors are a broad category that has

6 been included on the list since it was first

7 implemented in 2002. Over the past decade,

8 many organic flavors have been developed that

9 are being successfully used by companies. 

10 However, the regulations as written do not

11 require the use of organic flavors. We are

12 petitioning to revise the current listing to

13 require the use of organic flavors whenever

14 commercially available.

15 I would also like to note that we

16 support the work of the Materials Subcommittee

17 on GMOs. Keep moving forward. Don't forget

18 about seed purity.

19 You have received our full set of

20 comments. And just in closing, I want to

21 remind us all that organic farmers and

22 handlers lose if there are procedural delays
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1 that halt the responsible sunset review of

2 materials, and we support the plan of the

3 Chair Jean Richardson to move all motions

4 forward to a full Board vote.

5 So, have a productive meeting, and

6 thank you for your volunteer service.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

8 Laura.

9 Questions?

10 Zea?

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you,

12 Laura.

13 We know OTA has written

14 extensively on prevention strategies being an

15 important component, and that is scheduled for

16 us to be working on next, along with the

17 further work on excluded methods.

18 Could you just give us a little

19 bit of input on that?

20 MS. BATCHA: Sure. We definitely

21 support that work and look forward to that

22 eventually turning into a recommendation for
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1 guidance, Zea.

2 I think one of the things that we

3 keep coming back to as a prevention strategy,

4 at least on the crop production side for

5 organic, is the importance of clean seed for

6 farmers to start with. And I know this has

7 been a real challenging topic for us to tackle

8 as a community because of the right and

9 strongly-felt belief that the organic farmers

10 shouldn't bear the burden of the cost of the

11 testing and the contamination from the

12 conventional agriculture system.

13 That said, we also know, and we

14 have seen some recent data from trade that

15 suggests, without clean seed, the farmers are

16 going to continue to be challenged and for it

17 to be almost impossible to produce final crops

18 that, while the threshold is not in organic

19 standards, the market acceptance of that .9

20 percent.

21 So, one of the ideas that we are

22 interested in you all exploring -- and it is
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1 not, honestly, a fully-baked solution; it is

2 going to require a lot of experts weighing-in

3 -- but the idea that perhaps we could take the

4 first step by requiring a seed purity

5 declaration on conventional seed that is grown

6 under the commercial-availability clause on

7 organic farms. So that that burden for clean

8 seed come tested and disclosed on the seed

9 bag, but the responsibility for that be with

10 the seed providers that are producing this

11 conventional seed, not on the organic farmers

12 themselves, just as a place to start.

13 Because, you know, we do feel

14 strongly we have to start somewhere with this

15 because the problem is not going to go away,

16 and folks are feeling a lot of pressure out

17 there. We are hoping it might be a creative

18 way to think about building a system that

19 doesn't put the burden on the organic farmers

20 and seed growers.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

22 Laura.
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1 John?

2 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Thanks.

3 As usual, I appreciate comments.

4 So, I was looking at our agenda

5 and looking at the packaged comments you had

6 put together. You usually have really lengthy

7 comment on everything on the agenda, and there

8 is not everything in here. So, I am wondering

9 why you didn't do that this time.

10 MS. BATCHA: Okay. Thanks. Yes.

11 So, tomorrow you are going to hear

12 from Gwendolyn, and she is going to talk about

13 the glycerin petition, gellan gum, and boiler

14 chemicals, and just in short, supporting the

15 move to organic and glycerin with a little bit

16 of nuance, keeping gellan gum on the list, and

17 our early first round of assessment on boiler

18 chemicals, that it is maybe time for them to

19 go.

20 Nate is going to address assessing

21 the soil conservation and contamination of

22 inputs as well as sulfurous acid and hydrogen
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1 chloride on that next round.

2 I think we reach out to our

3 membership through surveys, and we use members

4 that are also organizations to reach out to

5 their constituents as well. And this two-step

6 review has allowed a little bit more time to

7 provide input.

8 But we are really trying to focus

9 our efforts on sort of two places: where our

10 membership has identified there are

11 alternatives and it is time for the material

12 to move off the list or in areas where it is

13 critical for organic production or handling,

14 and there aren't alternatives and the material

15 needs to stay on the list.

16 So, for a lot of the materials

17 under sunset review or even under petition, if

18 we haven't commented, it is because our

19 membership really has not expressed a stake in

20 the game on those materials or an interest.

21 And I will quote Jean. We are

22 trying to choose our battles wisely.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

2 Nick?

3 MEMBER MARAVELL: Laura, getting

4 back to seed purity for a second --

5 MS. BATCHA: Uh-hum.

6 MEMBER MARAVELL: -- I know, and I

7 assume you still are serving on the AC 21

8 Committee? Do you see anything on the horizon

9 through the work of that Committee, because I

10 know it is sort of reinvigorating itself right

11 now, that will provide tangible support or

12 assistance to organic farmers trying to

13 maintain a purer seed supply?

14 MS. BATCHA: Thanks for the

15 question, Nick, and I wish I had some more

16 concrete information. And if Patsy is still

17 in the room, and she has anything to add,

18 please do, because I am not sure I have full

19 visibility.

20 What has been shared with me is

21 that the Committee has been rechartered. We

22 have yet to meet again, and we have not been
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1 informed what the Secretary's intention for

2 the reconvening will be.

3 As I understand it, because of the

4 open comment period on the stewardship

5 practices and education and outreach on

6 coexistence, those comments have been sort of

7 collated within USDA and the next step will be

8 to hold a stakeholder engagement session that

9 may take the form of sort of a listening

10 session/engagement session.

11 Last I heard, the hope was that

12 meeting could take place in December in

13 Washington, and that AC 21 would not reconvene

14 in person until after that listening session. 

15 So, I think it is important for the organic

16 community to turn out on that. As soon as we

17 get any word on a date, I will share it with

18 folks, because I think we need to keep

19 pressing.

20 Concrete relief is, as we all

21 know, a very tough fight because really it

22 breaks down on who is responsible. I think we
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1 are all in agreement here that organic

2 producers and handlers go to huge extremes to

3 keep GMOs out of organic and sort of up to

4 here with the amount of effort we can put into

5 it versus others.

6 I think it is going to come down

7 to an assessment of USDA's authority and the

8 coordinative framework, and really pushing the

9 envelope on having some measures in place

10 where constraints can be placed on the

11 planting and cultivation of the products of

12 biotechnology, because we have to start there. 

13 There has to be some responsibility.

14 So, I am sorry I am not more

15 hopeful about that, though, Nick.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other

17 questions/comments for Laura?

18 (No response.)

19 No? Okay, thank you very much,

20 Laura.

21 We will now take a lunch break,

22 and the Chair will reconvene at precisely
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1 1:30.

2 Thank you.

3 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

4 went off the record for lunch at 12:20 p.m.

5 and went back on the record at 1:33 p.m.)

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

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21

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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N

2 1:33 p.m.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right,

4 everybody, I think that we are ready to start.

5 The first presenter this afternoon

6 to start off our public comment is Dag Falck,

7 and the person on deck following Dag will be

8 Stephen Walker.

9 So, Dag, if you would like to come

10 up?

11 Michelle, are we ready?

12 MR. FALCK: Hello. My name is Dag

13 Falck. I am the Organic Program Manager for

14 Nature's Path cereal. We are North America's

15 first and still largest certified organic

16 breakfast cereal producer.

17 We have all our eggs, our cereal

18 eggs, in the organic basket. Our commitment

19 to organic is total, as all our products are

20 certified organic. We depend on organic sales

21 growing and not shrinking.

22 We also sincerely believe that the
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1 success of organic is due to consumers wanting

2 something with real value, the organic value

3 of protecting food from pesticides and

4 synthetic fertilizers, et cetera, while

5 building a form of agriculture capable of

6 feeding the world with increased nutrition and

7 surely sustainable soil management. After

8 growing organic, the soil is more fertile than

9 before, as opposed to non-organic agriculture,

10 where the soil is left depleted and incapable

11 of feeding anyone without the addition of

12 synthetic inputs made mostly from fossil

13 fuels, which we all know are running out,

14 while also being man's biggest contribution to

15 global climate change.

16 We expect challenges when

17 providing organic products. And we are a

18 manufacturer, and we feel the pain every day. 

19 We expect these challenges to continue, and

20 even increase, because our world is heaping on

21 the challenges that organic is facing.

22 Challenges like finding certified
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1 organic inputs in a tight supply market and

2 finding ingredients that will keep our

3 products competitive and attractive in the

4 marketplace, and living with the fact that

5 some ingredients simply are not available for

6 use in organic products.

7 We believe that the consumer will

8 not continue to increasingly buy organic if

9 organic stops meaning what they expect it to

10 mean. So, we see it as essential that the

11 process of maintaining standards stays strong

12 and that it is strengthened, not weakened, so

13 that the process forces deep deliberation by

14 the NOSB at every step.

15 Some quick comments on sunset. 

16 Sunset is a word used to mean the end of a

17 cycle; for instance, the end of a day. We are

18 baffled as to why the NOP is insisting on

19 changing the sunset review method where a

20 substance sunsets and was removed at the end

21 of five years unless revoted onto a new sunset

22 list. We are at a loss when trying to imagine
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1 any reason why this change would be made that

2 is reasonable or in the service of maintaining

3 organic integrity.

4 The NOSB should bring this issue

5 up with the NOP, as it is such a serious

6 weakening of the system to protect organic

7 integrity that it would hurt organic consumer,

8 retailer, manufacturer, and certifier

9 confidence in the NOSB/NOP process, and

10 thereby, hurt organic sales.

11 It is ironic that the organic

12 regulators would choose to redefine a word as

13 well known and connected to a national

14 phenomena as sunset, where each and every day

15 each and every person on earth has a

16 reconfirmation of the meaning of the word.

17 Please insist that sunset remain

18 sunset, and not some artificial definition of

19 a natural phenomenon. Weren't we supposed to

20 be mimicking Nature anyway?

21 A summary of our comments on the

22 seed purity, we have written three comments,
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1 one on sunset and two on GMO. And so, on the

2 seed purity, in summary, applying best

3 practice can't be done until you see the

4 otherwise invisible and reproducing invader,

5 the GMOs.

6 To accomplish this, a test is

7 needed. Testing is a required component of

8 any meaningful best practice to avoid GMO

9 contamination of organic crops.

10 On the GMO definition, we prefer

11 that maybe coming up with -- we have detailed

12 comments written, but the common-sense

13 explanation of GMO is very needed. So, we are

14 suggesting a very common language definition

15 of what GMOs are and are not.

16 Thank you.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

18 Questions? Comments?

19 (No response.)

20 Thank you very much.

21 The next speaker is Stephen

22 Walker, and then on deck will be Jackie
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1 Townsend.

2 MR. WALKER: Good afternoon.

3 I am Steve Walker, and I am the

4 Compliance Manager with MOSA. We certify

5 about 1600 operations, mostly in the Upper

6 Midwest.

7 We submitted a couple of written

8 comments for this meeting, including a

9 combined statement on excluded methods

10 terminology and excluded methods in vaccines.

11 My comments today come with a dose

12 of humility. I am blessed to work with a

13 staff and community filled with a lot of smart

14 people, much like this room. Our MOSA staff

15 includes a number of folks with advanced

16 degrees in ag sciences, earthly practical

17 knowhow, and a lot of common sense. I feel

18 like I have got a pretty good head on my

19 shoulders, but, clearly, I am no geneticist.

20 I am a communications major that

21 fell in with a rather crunchy crowd and found

22 I could bring some gifts and passion to this
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1 work. My story is not uncommon in this

2 community.

3 So, we need our experts. We

4 appreciate the many hours the Materials and

5 GMO Subcommittee invested in helping us

6 understand the scope and variety of genetic

7 engineering methods. We need some practical,

8 sensible help, so we can make sound decisions.

9 The terminology discussion

10 document is a good start with good tools, like

11 the FiBL chart and the Cartagena Protocol

12 definitions. But, smart as we are, we

13 recognize our limits.

14 To clearly and consistently use

15 these tools, we feel we need mandated

16 disclosure of clearly-defined excluded

17 methods. Without required disclosure, we

18 question how use of widely-varying, often

19 proprietary methods will be known to organic

20 operators, the public, and the certifiers.

21 The current lack of disclosure is

22 a stumbling block toward our making
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1 appropriate decisions in the interest of all

2 organic stakeholders, especially when the line

3 between what is and what is not a GMO is

4 increasingly blurred.

5 Currently, when we know an input

6 might be produced with excluded methods, we

7 request non-GMO verification. But, even now,

8 statements from suppliers have inconsistent,

9 sometimes vague language. The terminology

10 document shows that we do not have sufficient

11 knowledge about GE definitions, what products

12 need verification, and how back in the

13 production chain to check.

14 We want organic to remain a

15 highly-meaningful label. Our current GMO-free

16 message is simple, but this discussion is very

17 difficult. Technology has changed rapidly,

18 and the risks and benefits are uncertain. We

19 must be sound in our standards and sensible in

20 our verification methodology. We need more

21 accountability in the form of public

22 disclosure of the use of GE technology. Our
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1 stakeholders demand it.

2 You know, I am not just a crunchy

3 communications major; I am also a preacher's

4 kid. So, I may have also been drawn to this

5 work by recognition of the moral imperative to

6 be a good steward of this earth.

7 In an intersection of upbringing

8 and vocation, a few years back I had a chance

9 to make some comments on another document on

10 this subject, as the Lutheran Church adopted

11 a social statement on genetics, faith, and

12 responsibility. That lengthy documents notes

13 that, with developing technologies, human

14 beings increasingly bear the moral burden for

15 the shape of Nature and the very existence of

16 future generations.

17 The potential benefits also

18 present new levels of danger and ambiguity,

19 and a diligent and sustained attention in

20 order to direct the potential good and to

21 limit potential harm.

22 And with regard to GE technology,
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1 the moral questions cannot be addressed

2 without complex knowledge. Those who possess

3 special or expert knowledge relevant to

4 decisionmaking have a moral duty to share what

5 they know with those like us engaged in the

6 process of moral discernment and policy

7 adoption, but there is a call here for two-way

8 humility. We have much to learn; we also have

9 much to teach the experts about good

10 stewardship, earthly practical knowhow, and

11 common sense.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

13 Steve.

14 Questions? Comments?

15 (No response.)

16 Thank you very much.

17 MR. WALKER: Thanks.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

19 speaker is Jackie Townsend, and on deck is Zak

20 Wiegand.

21 MS. TOWNSEND: Hello. My name is

22 Jackie Townsend, Policy Manager for MOSA. 
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1 MOSA certifies about 1600 operations, and

2 about 700 of them are livestock operations. 

3 I am here to address the Livestock

4 Subcommittee with regard to vaccines made with

5 excluded methods and the GMO Subcommittee on

6 excluded methods terminology.

7 MOSA would like to thank both

8 Committees for the many hours of work invested

9 in these topics, time that ACAs are not able

10 to spend.

11 We have been spending our time

12 performing all of the certification functions

13 that our clients need and spending much staff

14 time for the development of systems, policies,

15 and programs to address the changes required

16 by recent NOP clarifications.

17 We are an evolving industry, and

18 we would like to see our evolution be

19 controlled with practicality, not forgetting

20 soundness and sensibility for certifiers. How

21 can we be sound in our standards and sensible

22 in our verification methodology?
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1 Steve Walker, speaking just before

2 me, talked about the importance of the organic

3 label and the need for required disclosure. 

4 Of course, we support regulations requiring

5 the disclosure of the use of GE technology. 

6 The issue if disclosure is highlighted in the

7 vaccines proposal. The Subcommittee

8 determined that the creation of a list of

9 allowed and prohibited vaccines was difficult,

10 for a variety of reasons, and was unable to

11 develop a list of vaccines made with excluded

12 methods.

13 The other proposed tools, the use

14 of product code and methods-of-production

15 analysis are not sound and sensible tools

16 easily implementable by certifiers. The

17 proposal states that the use of product code

18 does not definitively identify vaccines as

19 made with excluded methods. So, it is unclear

20 how this is a useful tool.

21 If the task of developing such a

22 list of vaccines is challenging for the NOSB,
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1 it seems like it would be overly burdensome to

2 pass the task along to certifiers. Without

3 government regulation and increased

4 disclosure, it would be very difficult for

5 organic agriculture to make strides in the

6 goal of refraining from the use of vaccines

7 developed using excluded methods. We are

8 worried that the use of vaccines may be

9 limited by some ACAs.

10 MOSA recognizes vaccines as an

11 essential livestock health and food safety

12 management tool. At this time, we feel the

13 vaccines are categorically allowed by 105(e)

14 and their use is encouraged as a preventative

15 practice at 238(a)(6).

16 The proposal requests that the NOP

17 provide guidance on how to make a

18 determination of whether a vaccine has been

19 produced with excluded methods. We recognize

20 some disagreement on who should provide the

21 guidance, but, regardless, MOSA wants to

22 ensure that any forthcoming guidance process
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1 includes ample opportunity for additional

2 public comment.

3 The NOSB has waded through volumes

4 of information in an effort to help ACAs have

5 the tools needed. It seems the Subcommittees

6 have found themselves stuck in a quagmire of

7 confusing scientific terminology, political

8 maneuvering, and legal restrictions. We

9 greatly appreciate the work done, but it seems

10 that we need to, as a community, push for

11 public disclosure.

12 The concluding sentence of the

13 second discussion document drives home the

14 need for increased focus on this issue. And

15 we would add that, without disclosure

16 requirements, the ability to use these

17 definitions and principles would be hampered.

18 MOSA supports sound enforcement of

19 the National Organic Standards to continue to

20 ensure we have an organic label that means

21 something, and in order to soundly enforce our

22 standards, we need sensible information to
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1 make clear and consistent certification

2 decisions.

3 We continue to feel that GE

4 technology, including definition, labeling,

5 and public disclosure, is a priority for

6 further research and education.

7 Thank you.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

9 Questions? Comments?

10 (No response.)

11 Thank you.

12 The next speaker is Zak -- is it

13 Wiegand? Am I mispronouncing? Good, I got it

14 the second time. Thank you.

15 And on deck is Mike Leventini.

16 MR. WIEGAND: Good afternoon.

17 My name is Zak Wiegand. I'm the

18 Processing Program Technical Specialist for

19 Oregon Tilth.

20 You are probably familiar with

21 Oregon Tilth, but I am going to tell you about

22 us, a little bit about us anyway.
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1 We are an advocacy group, an

2 educator, and a certifier. And according to

3 Jim Pierce, we are the best certifier.

4 (Laughter.)

5 We certify around 1500 operations

6 across the country as well as internationally,

7 and it is about a 50/50 mix of handlers to

8 farmers.

9 So, first, I would like to extend

10 a great big thank you to the Materials and GMO

11 Subcommittee for your continuing effort to try

12 to tackle the complex and ever-changing issues

13 surrounding the definition of excluded methods

14 and related terminology.

15 I would also like to thank the

16 entire NOSB for their work and dedication in

17 improving organic standards for all

18 stakeholders.

19 The information provided in the

20 discussion document on excluded methods

21 terminology shows that you have good starting

22 points to move forward with addressing the
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1 need to update and clarify the definition of

2 excluded methods.

3 From the use of a guidance

4 document that provides a platform for ease of

5 updating to potentially using a dynamic table

6 listing different types of biotechnology and

7 their acceptability, these are sensible ideas

8 that will help us keep up with the ever9 changing landscape of biotechnology while

10 providing some clear and consistent

11 information for certifiers to evaluate to.

12 Additionally, as Zea mentioned

13 yesterday, the Subcommittee will be addressing

14 products produced from genetically-engineered

15 organisms as work on this continues, and we

16 appreciate that this is part of the ongoing

17 work of the Subcommittee. So, we look forward

18 to future work on this and are pleased that

19 these issues will surface with any

20 recommendations that develop from this work.

21 We understand that clarifying the

22 definition of excluded methods is a starting
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1 point for this extended project and feel that

2 you have laid good groundwork with this

3 discussion document. And we are looking

4 forward to contributing more support to the

5 Subcommittee as these documents are refined.

6 Once again, I would like to thank

7 the Materials/GMO Subcommittee, the NOSB, and

8 the NOP for your tireless work to improve the

9 organic standards.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Zak.

11 Questions? Comments?

12 (No response.)

13 No?

14 Thank you, Zak.

15 MR. WIEGAND: Thank you.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

17 speaker is Mike Leventini, and on deck is

18 Lindsay Fernandez-Salvador.

19 MR. LEVENTINI: Good afternoon.

20 My name is Mike Leventini. I am

21 with the Petaluma Poultry out in California. 

22 We are also a member of the Methionine Task
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1 Force, and we are an organic broiler company

2 on the West Coast. I am going to talk today

3 about kind of where we are on synthetic

4 methionine use in broilers.

5 So, back in 2001, our founder,

6 Alan Shainsky, worked with the USDA and got

7 the ball rolling with organic broilers. At

8 that point, we were allowed to use methionine

9 in the rations.

10 In 2010, we dialed-down our

11 methionine use to a maximum inclusion rate

12 kind of bird type. So, layers and ducks could

13 use four pounds per ton, broilers could use

14 five, and turkeys could use five.

15 The maximum allowed -- and again,

16 this is the maximum for every pound of feed --

17 was cut again in 2012. So, layers and ducks

18 got cut in half. Broilers went from five

19 pounds down to two pounds. They took the

20 biggest brunt of the reduction. And turkeys

21 were at three.

22 Currently, it is the only
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1 exception that we use in organic feed. And at

2 two pounds per ton, the feed formulation is

3 99.90 percent organic.

4 So, where do we kind of compare in

5 the United States with everybody else? Well,

6 in Canada, on their organic program, they are

7 allowed to use synthetic methionine in an

8 unlimited amount.

9 The EU doesn't allow synthetic

10 methionine or any synthetic amino acid, but is

11 allowed to feed 5 percent non-organic

12 feedstuffs in their feed. So, they can feed

13 a 100 pounds of non-organic feed per ton.

14 So, as the U.S. poultry industry

15 continues to strive to find a 100-percent

16 solution, however, the solution is not

17 occurring anywhere else in the world in a

18 commercial setting.

19 So, what does that mean to an

20 organic chicken being raised in the United

21 States? Well, in order to feed the chickens

22 what they need, it has been well-documented
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1 that plant-based chicken feeds, so no meat

2 byproducts or those kinds of things, they

3 don't match up. Plant-based rations don't

4 match up with what a chicken needs. So, you

5 have to give them a little more methionine.

6 A protein is just an accumulation

7 of a bunch of different amino acids, and

8 plants don't match up with what the chicken

9 needs. So, in order to get them their

10 methionine, we have to feed more protein as a

11 percent of the ration.

12 And we also know, due to Dr.

13 Fanatico's research in 2007, that it doesn't

14 really matter if it is a slow-growing, medium15 growing, or fast-growing broiler; they all

16 need this incremental methionine amount,

17 particularly in the starter and grower phases,

18 not when they are putting on big breasts and

19 big legs, but when they are driving organ

20 growth and tissue growth and those kinds of

21 things.

22 Unfortunately, that is also the
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1 time when the chickens are inside. They are

2 not outside ranging when they are 18 to 20

3 days old.

4 So, as we fed more protein to

5 these birds to give them the methionine that

6 they need, the birds don't need all that

7 protein. So, they end up excreting out that

8 nitrogen into the manure. The manure ends up

9 deriving more ammonia problems within the

10 house. You get a wetter house with more

11 ammonia. We have to end up spending more

12 propane and more electricity.

13 But that stress on the bird that

14 we cause by feeding this ration when they are

15 also going through vaccination reactions and

16 other things has actually caused more

17 mortality and more morbidity in the chicken

18 house. This is the information I put in my

19 comments about a year ago. From before the 2-

20 pound change, we see an increase of 18 percent

21 in our mortality in these broiler flocks.

22 So, in summary -- I am going fast
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1 to get my T-shirt -- worldwide we haven't

2 solved this issue. We are getting by, but

3 current restrictions are resulting in animal

4 welfare and environmental issues.

5 (Signal that time is almost

6 expired.)

7 Missed it (referring to signal).

8 We will continue to research and

9 find alternative sources for synthetic

10 methionine. We are doing feed trials. We

11 have funded testing. We have done all sorts

12 of stuff.

13 But we are going to push for

14 middle ground. We are going to continue to

15 ask that, instead of a max, that we get an

16 average for life of flock. Allow us to feed

17 them more methionine early.

18 And on the broiler side, we are

19 going to ask that we not only get the average,

20 but take us back to the 50-percent reduction,

21 back at the two-and-a-half, as opposed to the

22 60 percent that we took in the last reduction.
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1 Thank you.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

3 Mike. Thank you very much.

4 Questions on methionine.

5 Francis?

6 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you, Mike.

7 Are you familiar with the recent

8 work on high-methionine corn? Have you looked

9 into that?

10 MR. LEVENTINI: We have tested it

11 early, and I term it "high-protein corn"

12 because, really, we need methionine in a

13 different ratio that is in current soybean

14 meal, for example. And the ratio of

15 methionine really isn't that much different. 

16 It is higher protein, but it is not

17 necessarily higher methionine as a ratio.

18 MEMBER THICKE: Okay. So, you're

19 saying that it is like feeding more soybean

20 meal perhaps?

21 MR. LEVENTINI: Yes.

22 MEMBER THICKE: Okay. So, it is
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1 like .25 percent with methionine, maybe .3

2 percent methionine. That is getting a little

3 higher, isn't it?

4 MR. LEVENTINI: I think there is

5 some help, but it is not the single issue that

6 is going to help us.

7 MEMBER THICKE: Have you used

8 any --

9 MR. LEVENTINI: It may be helpful.

10 MEMBER THICKE: Have you used any

11 other sources of methionine to supplement?

12 MR. LEVENTINI: We have gone

13 through and done a lot of research, probably

14 looked at 50 or 60 different things. We are

15 continuing to look. Not a lot of those items

16 on that list of things that in life are higher

17 methionine or organically available or

18 available in the amount that we need them.

19 MEMBER THICKE: Okay. And you

20 said that, when the chickens get older, they

21 are outside more; inside, they are inside. 

22 Why would they be inside when they are older?
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1 MR. LEVENTINI: If I said that, I

2 meant they are inside when they are younger;

3 they are outside when they are older.

4 MEMBER THICKE: Oh, okay.

5 MR. LEVENTINI: But that makes

6 sense. When they are little, they don't have

7 feathers yet. We don't turn them outside

8 until they are fully feathered.

9 MEMBER THICKE: Okay.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tracy?

11 MEMBER FAVRE: Thanks for your

12 presentation.

13 We are devoting significant

14 resources in the Livestock Subcommittee to

15 discuss methionine between now and February. 

16 And I am curious in regards to, if you see any

17 products out there in development -- I know

18 that you said that you haven't found anything

19 on the market now. But are you aware of

20 anything coming to market or under development

21 that might solve the solution to the synthetic

22 methionine?
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1 MR. LEVENTINI: There are things

2 in discussion, but I haven't seen anybody

3 actually working on, say, a non-synthetic

4 methionine. I mean, there have been

5 discussions, but I am not aware of anything

6 currently in the hopper.

7 MEMBER FAVRE: And as a follow-on

8 question, one of the things that we have

9 struggled with is there is some concern within

10 the Committee, as well as the Board as a

11 whole, that if we allow an average over the

12 life of the bird, and, of course, if we

13 respond to that as part of the petition

14 response, it resets the sunset date. And

15 there is some concern that, if we allow that,

16 we create a disincentive for development of

17 alternatives. Can you respond to that?

18 MR. LEVENTINI: Well, I think

19 everybody on the Methionine Task Force

20 understands that we have to solve this, right? 

21 We would rather be home tending chickens than

22 coming to meetings and talking through this. 
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1 So, I think we are all really dedicated to

2 solving this issue. It is just a very

3 difficult one to solve.

4 My job or my thoughts today were,

5 while we are trying to get to that endpoint,

6 while we are trying to find that methionine

7 solution, let's understand what we are

8 currently doing and see if a small tweak would

9 really help the animals in the interim.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold?

11 MEMBER AUSTIN: Well, I think my

12 question is going to kind of go to that, your

13 concern with that small tweak. Because, you

14 know, we talk a lot about environmental

15 health. We talk a lot about human health. 

16 Could you explain to the Board what the

17 decision to refer back to the Subcommittee

18 this past spring has done to the health of the

19 flock currently as it exists today with what

20 you guys are having to do in order to meet the

21 methionine needs? And what are the current

22 conditions with the flocks?
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1 MR. LEVENTINI: So, what has two2 pound max done to our chickens? So, there

3 will be other folks up here that can maybe

4 address the layer. I am a broiler guy. But

5 I think this particular slide here shows that

6 from before, when we were unrestricted, to

7 where we are now, there's 18-percent more

8 mortality.

9 So, during that young chicken as

10 it is growing -- it is primarily upfront when

11 that chicken is growing. They are going

12 through vaccination reactions. This high13 protein feed that we are feeding them in order

14 to get the methionine they need causes a lot

15 of stress in that animal's tummy, and they get

16 opened up to things like necrotic enteritis

17 and other things that actually drive a little

18 bit more mortality. Not only do you get

19 mortality, but morbidity.

20 The lack of production and the

21 stress on the animal is increased as well. 

22 That is seen through wetter litter, increased
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1 ammonia, increased mortality.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

3 Mac?

4 MEMBER STONE: Were you on the

5 Methionine Task Force back when the decision

6 was made to step down from this four to two or

7 five to two, five to three? How were those

8 step-downs calculated and where is that in --

9 if the number, if you could calculate what it

10 is that the corn/soy diet doesn't provide,

11 what would the number be for a broiler?

12 MR. LEVENTINI: On a percentage

13 basis?

14 MEMBER STONE: Yes.

15 MR. LEVENTINI: So, to answer the

16 first part of your question, I have no idea

17 where the step-down numbers came from. I

18 think, as a group, we were all concerned that

19 we were going to lose methionine 100 percent,

20 which would have crushed us. So, I think we

21 were all kind of willing to take two because

22 we could probably find a way to get to two, to
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1 do something. And by reacting to two pounds,

2 you can see what it has done to our mortality.

3 I don't know where the numbers

4 came from. I was involved with the Methionine

5 Task Force, but I don't know where the numbers

6 came from.

7 We have our nutritionist coming up

8 in a bit. Maybe he can speak to what

9 percentages we need.

10 But I would say 5 or 6 percent

11 would be a normal level of additional

12 methionine in a protein-based feed. So, we

13 are feeding a third of what they need, and we

14 are having to increase the food protein to get

15 there.

16 Did that answer your question,

17 Mac?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nick?

19 MEMBER THICKE: One more quick

20 question. You said in Europe they allow 5

21 percent.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Hold on,
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1 Francis.

2 MEMBER THICKE: Oh, I thought you

3 said yes. I'm sorry.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No, there are

5 two more people.

6 MEMBER THICKE: Oh, I'm sorry.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

8 MEMBER MARAVELL: I am just

9 interested in the statement up there that

10 methionine needs do not differ in broiler

11 types, slow-, medium-, and fast-growing. Are

12 you saying that the absolute amount of

13 methionine doesn't differ or that the

14 percentage of methionine of total feed doesn't

15 differ?

16 MR. LEVENTINI: I will have to go

17 back and check, triple check, but I believe it

18 is percentage, because what happens is --

19 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right, right. 

20 Exactly.

21 MR. LEVENTINI: -- it is feed

22 intake, right.
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: It is the

2 balance?

3 MR. LEVENTINI: Right. Correct.

4 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, exactly.

5 MR. LEVENTINI: Yes.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Calvin?

7 MEMBER WALKER: How would you

8 define the term in the context of feed

9 nutrient, something that is marginally

10 adequate?

11 MR. LEVENTINI: I'm sorry, I don't

12 understand the question.

13 MEMBER WALKER: If a nutrient

14 amino acid such as methionine is considered in

15 the poultry ranch as marginally adequate, what

16 does that connote to you?

17 MR. LEVENTINI: Well, I don't know

18 if you are driving towards malnutrition or

19 what we are talking about. But, certainly,

20 all the protein, all the diets go back to

21 years and years and years of research out

22 there for cattle and sheep and pigs and
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1 chickens.

2 And we are doing the best thing we

3 can to try and increase the protein and give

4 these chickens balanced rations. When you

5 don't give them balanced rations, when

6 something is missing, the chickens or the

7 cattle or the sheep, they will look for it and

8 they will pick feathers or they will react in

9 certain ways, and they are trying to find

10 things that they need. And that is how the

11 birds react to a diet that is marginally

12 nutritious or marginally giving them what they

13 need.

14 I hope I answered your question.

15 MEMBER WALKER: Does the term mean

16 that it is adequate?

17 MR. LEVENTINI: I'm sorry, I still

18 don't understand what you're getting at.

19 MEMBER WALKER: The term

20 "marginally adequate," does that mean to you

21 that what is in the diet is adequate, but just

22 right at the margins?
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1 MR. LEVENTINI: Did I say

2 "marginally adequate"?

3 MEMBER WALKER: Oh, I was asking

4 for the term. How would you define it?

5 MR. LEVENTINI: Oh, well, I think

6 adequate is adequate, right? The only thing

7 I need, when you go off of these things, I

8 mean, there is all this research that says

9 chickens need this. So, I don't know that

10 without seeing particular data if I can

11 answer, if they need .5, that .4 is marginally

12 adequate. It would depend on what we are

13 talking about, I think.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Francis, you

15 had a question?

16 MEMBER THICKE: Yes. You said in

17 Europe they allow 5-percent non-organic in the

18 ration, correct? Does that include synthetic?

19 MR. LEVENTINI: Well, what I

20 looked up and when I talked to the few

21 nutritionists, they talked about -- and here

22 is the thing here -- no synthetic amino acids. 
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1 And so, in that 5 percent there were no

2 synthetics, but you could feed non-organic

3 feedstuffs.

4 MEMBER THICKE: What would that

5 be? Do you know?

6 MR. LEVENTINI: Hay or different

7 things that were not organically approved.

8 MEMBER THICKE: But they could

9 have organic hay as well, I guess.

10 MR. LEVENTINI: Yes, I haven't

11 done enough research to understand what they

12 are actually feeding, but they can feed 100

13 pounds a ton.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Wendy?

15 MEMBER FULWIDER: I think maybe

16 the way to answer Calvin's question is, if we

17 have the stats to know if the mortality is

18 significantly different with the different

19 levels in methionine that you had on your

20 slide.

21 MR. LEVENTINI: Okay. I can go

22 run the stat packages, but I feel very
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1 confident that it is. But I can go do that

2 and get back to the group.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Good. That

4 might be very helpful.

5 MR. LEVENTINI: Yes, there's over

6 500 data points there.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Calvin?

8 MEMBER WALKER: I think it also

9 will be answered -- you had mentioned that

10 there would be a nutritionist coming up? 

11 Because I think they could also shed light to

12 this particular definition.

13 MR. LEVENTINI: Of marginally

14 adequate?

15 MEMBER WALKER: Yes.

16 MR. LEVENTINI: Okay.

17 MEMBER WALKER: Okay.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank

19 you very much. You have been very helpful.

20 MR. LEVENTINI: Thank you.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We appreciate

22 it.
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1 The next person up is Lindsay

2 Fernandez-Salvador, and then, we will have Dr.

3 Rangan and her son Max.

4 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: So, is

5 this thing reset now? Okay. Okay. Thanks.

6 Thank you for the opportunity to

7 comment today.

8 I am Lindsay Fernandez-Salvador,

9 and I am the Technical Director at Armory.

10 Today I want to talk mainly about

11 contamination and inputs, but also touch on

12 the idea of ancillary substances as they

13 relate to their presence in other inputs

14 besides processing ingredients.

15 I believe that Armory provides the

16 most comprehensive and consistent level of

17 analysis for all types of contaminants and

18 inputs in the organic industry and quite

19 possibly the world. Therefore, by most

20 standards, that would make us an expert in

21 this subject matter.

22 Our written comments gave the
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1 standards and requirements that Armory has in

2 place for various contaminants outlined in the

3 regulations at 205.203. So far, those

4 standards seem to root out most problems and

5 are useful to operators.

6 Therefore, we have come to the

7 conclusion that contaminants are not a

8 significant threat to the organic sector. 

9 Most inputs are free of contaminants, such as

10 heavy metals, pathogens, and pesticide

11 residues. However, there have been high12 profile cases of pesticide residue

13 contamination in compost, as outlined in the

14 discussion document, that brought this issue

15 into focus for Armory in a very public and

16 messy way.

17 What we learned from that

18 experience is that there is a need for

19 transparent requirements for pesticide

20 residues in compost. I want to be clear,

21 however. We are not necessarily advocating

22 for thresholds or testing, but, rather, for a
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1 consistent, transparent standard that

2 everybody must be held to. That standard

3 could be that we don't test inputs at all or

4 we assess risk based on feedstocks or we

5 advise compost users to be aware of pesticide

6 residues. It could be any standard; it just

7 needs to be transparent and clear.

8 If we do start talking about

9 testing for pesticide residues, I urge you to

10 consult with the composting industry and

11 collaborate with them to make a reasonable

12 recommendation. There should be careful

13 thought to testing methods, frequency,

14 followup, corrective actions, and

15 consequences. There should be a method for

16 the composter to mediate any problems and get

17 their product reapproved. The last thing we

18 want to do is discourage the use of recycled

19 food waste by getting so detailed that there

20 is no compost free of contaminants.

21 On ancillary substances and

22 microorganisms, we urge you to consider the
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1 implications of your recommendation on other

2 uses for microorganisms. For example,

3 livestock feed contains microorganisms which

4 may contain those same ancillary substances. 

5 If we allow those for processing ingredients,

6 but not in livestock feed, it is illogical and

7 difficult to defend.

8 And we want to also address the

9 fellow who talked about using an enzyme in his

10 liquid fertilizer product. This is another

11 example of how ancillary substances and

12 processing materials are also present in non13 synthetic ingredients in fertilizers. If you

14 allow ancillary substances in processing

15 ingredients, other uses of those same

16 ingredients should be considered.

17 Finally, please talk about

18 bacterial phages when you talk microorganisms

19 today or this meeting, so that we can

20 understand whether or not they are covered

21 under the microorganisms listings at

22 205.605(a).
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1 Thank you very much for the

2 opportunity to comment.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

4 Comments? Questions?

5 (No response.)

6 Thank you very much.

7 Dr. Rangan and Max, and Terry

8 Shistar on standby.

9 DR. RANGAN: Good afternoon.

10 My name is Urvashi Rangan. I'm

11 the Director of Consumer Safety and

12 Sustainability at Consumer Reports. I am glad

13 to be here today, and I want to thank the

14 members who are rotating off this session for

15 their very, very hard work. Thank you.

16 We at Consumer Reports are very

17 concerned about where things are right now on

18 sunset and the discriminatory use of really

19 what are explicitly-prohibited materials in

20 the law and the use of artificial ingredients. 

21 And our role at Consumer Reports is to help

22 educate people about what organic means as
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1 well as what it doesn't mean. And we also

2 look to see scientifically what can consumers

3 expect out of organic, why they are willing to

4 pay more for it, why they are willing to buy

5 it at all. And in the course of doing that,

6 what they expect from it when they do so.

7 Charlotte Vallaeys and I have been

8 rating and evaluating labels on food, dozens

9 of labels, all year long. And all of that

10 information is available for free at

11 greenerchoices.org.

12 We bring today and tomorrow, when

13 Charlotte testifies on the materials, that

14 kind of broad expertise in looking at a

15 variety of different label programs. Organic

16 is slipping. And as a result, we have

17 downgraded its rating from highly meaningful

18 to meaningful. You can read on Greener

19 Choices exactly what, but we are extremely

20 concerned about the way things are doing and

21 where things need to go.

22 We, again, do national surveys. 
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1 We run the polls largest to the Census in the

2 country or next to the Census. And we believe

3 empirical data is incredibly important. 

4 Having listening sessions, talking to people

5 on the phone, that is anecdotal information. 

6 That doesn't give you a scientific basis to

7 inform you of what consumer expectations are.

8 So, I want to go through a few of

9 our survey findings. Seventy-four percent of

10 consumers -- and these are nationally11 representative surveys -- mistakenly believe

12 there are no artificial ingredients used in

13 organic foods. They are being misled to think

14 that.

15 Eighty-nine percent actually

16 expect there to be no artificial ingredients. 

17 When it comes to artificial ingredients in

18 processing, 76 percent of people don't think

19 it is in foods labeled organic. They are

20 mistaken. Ninety-one percent of people do not

21 want it to be in there.

22 When it comes to no antibiotics
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1 being used, you see similar response rates. 

2 And again, the loophole that would allow

3 chickens to be fed antibiotics or administered

4 antibiotics up to day two of life is

5 inconsistent with those expectations. It is

6 inconsistent with the way the program markets

7 organic.

8 And I have seen this bag, and I

9 have written down some of the more accurate

10 phrasings that ought to be on this bag. It is

11 no antibiotics except for those chicks are fed

12 up to day two of life. It is no artificial

13 colors, preservatives, or flavors, but there's

14 other artificial things that are allowed. 

15 Even in the marketing of the program on

16 organic, it is easy to see how consumers are

17 being misled out there.

18 As I said, we have also looked at

19 a variety of different label programs, and I

20 want to talk a little bit about those because

21 they are exceeding organic. And we are now

22 able to tell consumers to look for organic and
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1 bird-friendly or organic and biodynamic

2 because it means more.

3 Those particular programs actually

4 require products to be organic in the first

5 place, and then, they add more value. They

6 don't allow things like methionine in

7 biodynamic. They don't allow phosphate-based

8 leaveners in biodynamic. They are doing more

9 than this program is when it comes to the use 

10 of artificial materials and ingredients in the

11 program and in the standards that they

12 require.

13 There are simply labels that are

14 surpassing organic in various spaces. Animal

15 welfare approved is another one that has space

16 requirements for animals. Most people want

17 that.

18 We are delivering today the

19 results of our surveys from March 2014 and

20 April 2014 to you today, so you can see the

21 complete results. And I will submit those all

22 to Michelle.
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1 Thank you.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

3 Do you want to have your son speak

4 first before you take questions?

5 DR. RANGAN: No, I'll take them

6 now.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: You'll take

8 them now?

9 DR. RANGAN: And then, I will let

10 Max speak after. Thank you.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. 

12 Questions?

13 Calvin?

14 MEMBER WALKER: Thanks for your

15 report. And I just appreciate Consumer Union

16 because you represent over 8 million

17 individuals.

18 If there is a way in the future

19 that we could turn it back up again -- we have

20 been downgraded -- if there is a path that

21 NOSB can -- Robert Kennedy says a mistake is

22 not a mistake until you refuse to correct it.
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1 DR. RANGAN: That's right. Thank

2 you, Calvin.

3 MEMBER WALKER: So, if there is a

4 way that we could get that grade back up --

5 DR. RANGAN: It is really pretty

6 clearly outlined in the label record for the

7 organic program as to why we took these steps. 

8 It was actually a very difficult decision. We

9 did a lot of deliberating on it. We do

10 comparative ratings at Consumer Reports.

11 And when you simply look at the

12 other label programs and what they are doing

13 compared to what they are saying they are

14 doing, they are doing a whole lot better.

15 And so, when it comes to organic,

16 things like we have mentioned today, the no

17 antibiotics, and making sure when we use

18 artificial ingredients, we are doing it with

19 a very careful eye, because 71 percent of

20 people don't even want it in there to begin

21 with. So, people don't want these things. We

22 need to kind of acknowledge that.
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1 And you will be able to read

2 clearly in the record where it is we expect

3 improvements to be made in order for that

4 rating to go up again.

5 Thank you.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea?

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you,

8 Urvashi.

9 I just did a word search in OFPA

10 and I didn't see the word "artificial" in

11 there anywhere. We commonly use the

12 terminology "synthetic".

13 And particularly in regards to

14 something like, say, sulfur or pectin or

15 magnesium chloride, these are not generally

16 thought of as artificial; they are not analogs

17 of natural things that are synthetically18 derived.

19 So, I wonder why your scientists

20 think that using the word "artificial" in your

21 survey has the same meaning and/or connotation

22 as "synthetic".
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1 DR. RANGAN: Yes, great question,

2 Zea. I mean, we have been in the role of

3 communicating with consumers since 1936. And

4 the fact of the matter is that sometimes you

5 have to speak in a little more conventional

6 lingo. And so, artificial is a lay way of

7 talking about synthetic.

8 And I'll say you're right,

9 sometimes there are natural things that are

10 processed with artificial ingredients or we

11 have issues with how they are processed, and

12 we do. And Charlotte will be making extensive

13 comment on that when it comes to the materials

14 that are under your purview right now.

15 The fact of the matter is that it

16 is about artificial ingredients. Synthetic

17 means it is something that is not made in

18 nature. It isn't natural. It is synthetic;

19 it is artificial.

20 And when it comes to processing,

21 as you will see in our surveys, we actually

22 went to the extra step of asking people about
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1 artificial processing aids as well and whether

2 they expect to have those in organic as well.

3 So, while I understand we are not

4 using very scientifically-technical terms, if

5 people don't understand the question in a

6 survey, they can't possibly answer it

7 accurately.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold?

9 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thanks, Urvashi,

10 for being here and for giving your

11 presentation today.

12 When you started, you talked about

13 the indiscriminate use of the materials on the

14 National List. Could you define that or give

15 us a little more clarification on that,

16 please?

17 DR. RANGAN: Yes. Sure. I think

18 when it comes to artificial ingredients being

19 used, and then, how they are retired after

20 five years, Harold, the first survey we did in

21 March really starts to get at those issues. 

22 "Do you want those to be in there in the first
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1 place?" The answer is generally no.

2 "If they have to be used in there,

3 what do you think about a sunset? Do you

4 think five years is too short or just the

5 amount of time, too long?" So, we have asked

6 about that.

7 And then, we say, "And what do you

8 think should happen at sunset?"

9 And what is really clear from all

10 of these responses as we dig down is that we

11 need to be far more discriminating about what

12 it is we allow on that list and make sure that

13 it is very carefully deliberated on, that we

14 absolutely need it.

15 In order to create those organic

16 alternative incentives, we strongly believe

17 you need that five-year period to develop

18 those, so you can get synthetic materials off

19 the list. And that incentive needs to be

20 nailed to the floor. Otherwise, you don't

21 have an incentive, and we have seen that over

22 and over again.
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1 So, those things have to be built

2 in. People want to make sure, if they are

3 going to be used, that when they are done with

4 after five years, that they are dealt with

5 very, very carefully and appropriately.

6 And the more we listen to the NOP

7 describe what they are going to do at the end

8 of that period, the less and less it is

9 becoming discriminatory use. The fact that

10 these materials can remain on the list, maybe

11 they will get an invalidated checkmark. It is

12 really what is a sunset after all. Now we

13 need rulemaking to get things off the list. 

14 This simply doesn't comport with what the law

15 actually says and what it requires, what you

16 market organic as, and what consumers expect

17 it to be.

18 Thank you.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Colehour?

20 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you for

21 your presentation. And I don't mean to make

22 Max wait too long. So, I am sorry you're
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1 answering a lot of questions, but, hopefully,

2 he is staying awake.

3 Listen, I guess I was writing down

4 while you were talking, and I just want you to

5 speak for at least a moment about, you know,

6 we are the NOSB and that is what this meeting

7 is. And some of your observations or

8 comments, I am not going to say they are

9 directed at the program, but they are about

10 what the NOP is doing.

11 And you have alluded a little bit

12 to my question, but I want to see if you can

13 take it any further, which is, what can we,

14 the NOSB, be doing? I think I can infer from

15 what you were saying we could stop sort of

16 voting for synthetics to be allowed, is maybe

17 one thing I could interpret.

18 But I guess my question is, you

19 know, is what you are presenting just

20 presenting what is happening versus it brings

21 up the question, you know, where and how can

22 we, the NOSB, or is it the NOSB that can do
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1 some changes, or is it really more about the

2 NOP? I guess that is what I would like you to

3 address.

4 DR. RANGAN: Sure, Colehour. 

5 Thank you.

6 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you.

7 DR. RANGAN: Yes. I think, in

8 four minutes, the focus is on sort of what is

9 wrong and where things are sort of off the

10 rails. And I think it is and should be

11 inferred, but I will say it point-blank, that

12 we do look at this Board as the guardians of

13 this program. You are statutorily charged

14 with reviewing materials and making

15 recommendations about those materials. We

16 want you to have every bit of that authority.

17 We want you to be able to present

18 your recommendations in a logical manner that

19 doesn't obfuscate your own opinions. So, if

20 you are having to vote something down in order

21 to vote it up later, that is nonsense. The

22 American public doesn't want you to do that. 
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1 We want you to be true to what you believe and

2 what needs to be done, and we need to have a

3 logical forward-thinking process.

4 In so many ways, this process has

5 been rolled back over the last 18 months so

6 badly. And there were already issues 18

7 months ago. The problem now is you all are

8 really being stripped of these authorities and

9 having to behave in a way that is not

10 supportive of your authority, is not

11 supportive of what the American public thinks

12 you should be doing, and is relying on you to

13 do to ensure that, when it comes to material

14 use in this program, that we are being as

15 discriminatory and as careful as possible. 

16 And that job lies in your hands.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jay?

18 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you,

19 Urvashi.

20 I guess I would like you to talk a

21 little bit about something I grapple with, and

22 I think many Board members grapple with. And
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1 that is, how does all this technical review

2 and process stuff translate into public trust? 

3 And I know that is a hard thing to quantify in

4 a sense, and you don't know that you have lost

5 the public trust until you have actually lost

6 it sometimes.

7 So, I am wondering if you can help

8 Board members, from your perspective -- and,

9 of course, I do want to underscore that over

10 the years of developing public trust in this

11 label, you know, the predecessors to this

12 Board and the creators created, at least in

13 the PPM, an expectation that this Board would

14 listen very carefully to you, as a consumer

15 rep, and to others who are trying to explain

16 to this Board how we get to meeting consumer

17 expectations, and that mechanism of how. Do

18 we trust you? Whose survey do we trust? How

19 do we translate that into some behavior or

20 voting pattern, or what have you?

21 So, my question is, given the

22 surveys you have done and given what you have
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1 watched over this last year and historically,

2 how do we translate our work, how does this

3 Board translate its work into meeting public

4 trust? And what have you seen in terms of the

5 evaluation of both governmental labels and

6 non-governmental labels, voluntary labels?

7 How have you seen that trust issue

8 manifest itself, so that you could give some

9 guidance to the deliberation of this Board

10 when they are struggling with, well, I don't

11 think that is going to make a difference;

12 people don't care, or whatever they are

13 thinking?

14 DR. RANGAN: Yes. I mean, I think

15 that is exactly why we do these surveys, Jay. 

16 It is in a way a barometer of trust. And in

17 asking people what you think a label means and

18 measuring that against the baseline of what it

19 does mean, you can start to see where people

20 are being misled. Now, once people understand

21 they are being misled in a very absolute way,

22 you can start to erode trust in a direct way.
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1 But I think looking at these

2 surveys, it is a proxy for trust and it is an

3 opportunity to actually get some insight in,

4 again, a data-driven, scientific way, and for

5 you to understand what empirically you may be

6 doing to consumer opinion out there, and what

7 consumer opinion is.

8 This hasn't changed all that much. 

9 So, it is not as if these numbers swing like

10 a pendulum from year to year. They are pretty

11 consistent. And in the 12 years we have been

12 doing surveys on organic, we get very, very

13 consistent results.

14 I think the other thing to keep in

15 mind is we are not in a vacuum here. I mean,

16 these things happen in these ballrooms far

17 away from organic food, but we are not in a

18 vacuum. And you are in a marketplace

19 operating with a lot of other label programs,

20 and there is more and more coming up. And

21 they see the opportunities that organic has

22 missed. And so, they will fill in those gaps.
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1 And eventually, if you don't want

2 to deal with certain things or the program

3 doesn't want to deal with certain things,

4 other labels will come in. And ultimately,

5 they will offer consumers the value that they

6 are looking for.

7 Consumers are getting smarter and

8 smarter about the choices that they are

9 making. And, you know, when we started rating

10 these labels 15 years ago, we asked, are they

11 meaningful; are they verified; are they

12 consistent; are they transparent; are they

13 independent? Those questions now are almost

14 not becoming obsolete, but they are the first

15 tier of questions you ask.

16 Now we ask things about feed,

17 about drug use, about access to the outdoors,

18 about space requirements for animals. And

19 when you look, for example, on Greener Choices

20 right now, we have a chicken chart that is

21 based on these very discreet sustainability

22 attributes. Organics pretty much in the
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1 middle of the road. They are plenty of labels

2 out there that are doing a lot more when it

3 comes to animal welfare than organic is.

4 Meanwhile, you know, you all have

5 parked some very good recommendations at the

6 door with regard to space requirements for

7 animals. We need to get on with those things

8 because you are being beaten by other labels

9 who are doing a better job of that.

10 And when it comes to these humane

11 labels out there which people think organic

12 ought to be, people expect a lot more than

13 what the organic program is providing to them.

14 So, you can wait until trust

15 erodes completely, but it will be very

16 difficult to recover. And what we are trying

17 to do, and the reason we come to every meeting

18 isn't because we just love to talk about the

19 problems with organic. We are out there

20 telling people what it is, what it isn't. We

21 have a campaign to ban the natural label, to

22 have consumers focus on this program as the
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1 true natural.

2 But I can tell you I get

3 questions, too, on talk shows letting me know

4 that they organic is bogus; it cheats people;

5 it is not doing what it ought to. And I say,

6 if you actually care about sustainable ag,

7 please come to these public meetings and make

8 your voice heard, because people need to hear

9 that. They need to hear the anger that people

10 have in feeling cheated. And that is what is

11 important.

12 So, in terms of what organic is

13 doing or not doing as it relates to public

14 trust and expectations, you need to look in

15 front of you, but you also need to look behind

16 you to see what else is coming down the train

17 tracks, because other labels are coming, and

18 they are surpassing organic in many spaces.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

20 Urvashi. Would you like to introduce Max now?

21 DR. RANGAN: I would. So, I am

22 really happy to introduce -- and a lot of you
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1 know him from even being in my tummy eight

2 years ago and being at these meetings and

3 knitting sweaters -- but Max is eight, and he

4 has heard a lot about organic over the years,

5 and he is really happy to testify today.

6 So, Max, let's get you up here.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And as Max is

8 getting up there, I would like to ask those of

9 you that wish to take photographs, the rights

10 of children to have their photographs taken is

11 protected. And so, if you want to take his

12 photograph and, then, use it, you should seek

13 the permission of his mother.

14 DR. RANGAN: You may take his

15 picture.

16 (Laughter.)

17 How are you? Okay.

18 MR. ROSSITER: Hello. My name is

19 Max Rossiter. I am from the Bronx, and I

20 thank you for letting me say a few words

21 today.

22 When I told my friend Otis that I
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1 was going to give a public comment to the

2 government, Otis said he didn't believe me. 

3 He said people need to be way more popular to

4 talk to the government.

5 (Laughter.)

6 I have known about organics since

7 I was five or six years old, but I learned

8 that organic is truly natural. It is not

9 supposed to come from chemicals or food

10 coloring or artificial ingredients, but it

11 should all come from Nature.

12 Sometimes my Mom tells me about

13 bad things in certain foods, like arsenic in

14 rice and mercury in tuna. But I do eat a lot

15 of good food like broccoli, kale, apples,

16 peaches, grapes, and all sorts of berries. We

17 drink a lot of milk, too, and we eat a lot of

18 different meat, like chicken and beef, and I

19 really like lamb a lot.

20 Organic meat is so important

21 because it is supposed to come from animals

22 that had a good life, ate grass, got to play
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1 outside and roll in the mud. If chickens

2 don't go outside, then that is not natural and

3 it is not organic.

4 I think organic animals should

5 have a really good life and that they

6 shouldn't eat any artificial ingredients. I

7 also don't think that the healthy chickens in

8 the egg or when they hatch should get any

9 drugs for growing up.

10 One thing I have been learning

11 about in my school is figures of speech. One

12 of my favorite ones is about people in glass

13 houses who should not throw rocks.

14 In getting ready for this talk, my

15 Mom asked me what a sunset was. I know that

16 sunsets are something my family likes to watch

17 on vacation. My Mom explained that sunsets

18 are also something that should happen to

19 artificial ingredients and chemicals that have

20 been allowed to be used for five years.

21 Like I said, I don't think those

22 things belong in organic food, but if they
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1 are, then a sunset should mean that after five

2 years the use of that ingredient will get

3 flatter and flatter, and then, it would just

4 go like the sun does when it fully sets.

5 Thank you very much for listening

6 to me today. I hope that it was helpful to

7 hear from someone who is eight and who thinks

8 a lot how important organic should be and how

9 pure it should be.

10 (Applause.)

11 DR. RANGAN: Any questions for

12 Max?

13 (Laughter.)

14 MEMBER STONE: I would just like

15 it if he would come up to get his T-shirt.

16 (Laughter.)

17 DR. RANGAN: Oh, Max, do you want

18 to go up and get your T-shirt?

19 (Applause.)

20 MS. SHISTAR: Talk about a tough

21 act to follow.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Michelle is

2 going to get the slides up there.

3 All right, Terry, now that is a

4 hard act to follow.

5 MS. SHISTAR: Now wait a minute. 

6 This was perfectly timed.

7 (Laughter.)

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh, okay. 

9 Good.

10 So, Terry is up, Terry Shistar,

11 followed by Gwendolyn Wyard.

12 MS. SHISTAR: Okay. Michelle, is

13 this going to start? How do I just tell it to

14 start? Maybe you have to push "Go".

15 My name is Terry Shistar, and I am

16 on the Board of Directors of Beyond

17 Pesticides. Our direction comes from a Board

18 composed of organic farmers, scientists, farm

19 workers, medical practitioners, land managers,

20 attorneys, and activists.

21 I introduce a new scroll today, an

22 update to NOP's scroll. We have to be careful
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1 because parts of it are torn.

2 NOP says that the list of

3 substances in sunset review will be published

4 on the NOP website with enough lead time for

5 both NOSB review and USDA action. The

6 announcement of the Sunset 2015 materials is

7 not easy to find. There's no announcement of

8 Sunset 2016 materials, despite the fact that

9 this meeting is the last chance for timely

10 public comment. The announcement for the

11 Sunset 2015 materials did not state that the

12 spring 2014 meeting was the last time for

13 timely comment.

14 The Federal Register notice

15 announcing the first meetings, according to

16 NOP, will request public comments on each

17 substance under sunset review. Well, the

18 announcement of the spring 2014 meeting did

19 not mention sunset. The announcement of the

20 fall 2014 meeting mentioned sunset, but did

21 not state that the comments on Sunset 2015

22 materials would be untimely, nor that the
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1 meeting would be the last chance for timely

2 public comment on Sunset 2016 materials.

3 The purpose of the first meeting

4 is for the NOSB to hear new information about

5 each substance. Well, checklists and

6 Technical Reviews need to be available before

7 this meeting, the only one at which the NOSB

8 will accept public comments to be considered

9 as part of the review.

10 NOP says, if warranted, the NOSB

11 Subcommittees can develop proposals to remove

12 substances. Any proposal to remove a

13 substance must be justified using the

14 evaluation criteria in OFPA and the USDA

15 organic regulations. Step four only requires

16 the Subcommittee to decide whether the

17 material will be considered for delisting.

18 Prior to this meeting, the

19 Subcommittees, without notice, changed the

20 policy announced by the NOP and brought forth

21 proposals to delist without the required

22 support.
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1 Step four also prohibits changing

2 annotations at sunset, directing those who

3 want to do so to the petition process.

4 However, there are good reasons to allow

5 annotation at sunset.

6 In step five, AMS requests more

7 comments and the public can respond, but what

8 happens to those comments? NOP says that NOSB

9 members may make motions to delist sunset

10 substances, which require a two-thirds

11 majority to pass. OFPA requires the NOSB to

12 vote to allow exemptions to the default

13 prohibitions of synthetic inputs or non14 organic ingredients.

15 NOP says new information presented

16 at the second voting meeting will be

17 considered untimely. Oh, they don't count. 

18 The public is invited to submit comments that

19 don't count.

20 At the conclusion of the

21 discussion at the second meeting, the NOSB

22 Chair confirms that the NOSB review is
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1 complete. So, the NOSB Chair is deciding for

2 the whole Board.

3 NOP has pointed out numerous

4 hurdles that OMB sets for significant rules,

5 but did you know that no sunset decision has

6 ever been found to be significant? So, why is

7 this whole process important? As NOP pointed

8 out, courts can find a rule unlawful if

9 process is ignored.

10 I think you must have turned off

11 the timer.

12 (Laughter.)

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

14 Terry.

15 Questions? Comments?

16 Colehour?

17 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you, Terry.

18 I am left with the question or

19 thought of, that said, then what? Like what

20 can we do, what can the NOSB -- I don't know. 

21 I guess, again, back to along the lines of

22 what I said to Urvashi. Are you talking to
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1 the NOP or are you talking to the NOSB, is I

2 guess part of my question. But I guess you

3 have to answer it related to the NOP, too. 

4 But how can this process be finetuned or made

5 to function? Or what would you suggest?

6 MS. SHISTAR: Okay. Well, Amy

7 Simpson will be talking more about the

8 legalities of the process. And my comments

9 were really directed at the practicalities of

10 the way the process has so far emerged.

11 And so, yes, I was pointing out

12 the problems again. And I think that there

13 are some things that are within the power of

14 the NOSB to do that would help the process

15 work better. Some things the NOP has to do,

16 and some things the NOSB has to do.

17 But here are just a few. 

18 Actually, I think I have got a slide here. 

19 So, the two-meeting sunset process could be

20 easily improved by taking three steps.

21 One is to require Subcommittees to

22 produce documented checklists for the first of
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1 the two meetings and update them for the

2 second meeting. That would give public

3 commenters like me something to talk about.

4 And the second one is allowing

5 Subcommittees to propose annotations at the

6 second meeting that is addressing those

7 things, and being able to do that because

8 there's already a policy that applies to

9 substantive changes to a motion at a meeting. 

10 So, you could allow substantive comments to be

11 considered at the second meeting as long as

12 you apply the separate policy on substantive

13 change to a motion at the meeting.

14 And I think that that would make,

15 that those three things would make this two16 meeting process a lot more effective.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea?

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Terry, in your

19 written comments you contended that we hadn't

20 listed all the ancillary substances for

21 microorganisms. Yet, we surveyed all the

22 surveyors, the certifiers. I waded through
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1 dozens of spec sheets. And that tract

2 represents all we found. Could you please

3 give examples of ones that we did not list?

4 MS. SHISTAR: I would be glad to

5 send you some, but I don't have that writeup;

6 I don't have that with me.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. 

8 Normally, the comment period would be before

9 you turn in them in your public comment, so

10 that we can, then, take a look at them in the

11 review.

12 MS. SHISTAR: I do believe that

13 there were some listed, that there were things

14 listed in the TR, but I will have to look at

15 it.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

17 Terry.

18 MS. SHISTAR: Thanks.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay,

20 Gwendolyn, you're up.

21 And I should say we are running a

22 half-an-hour behind. So, just to suggest we
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1 keep our questions relatively short.

2 MS. WYARD: Good afternoon, Madam

3 Chair.

4 My name is Gwendolyn Wyard. I am

5 the Regulatory Director of Organic Standards

6 and Food Safety for the Organic Trade

7 Association.

8 For the record, I have an advanced

9 degree in fermentation science with a minor in

10 chemistry nutrition. I have worked full-time

11 in organic certification and policy for the

12 last 16 years. This is my 22nd consecutive

13 NOSB meeting and the first that I have had to

14 show up wearing glasses.

15 (Laughter.)

16 My comments today will focus on

17 glycerin, gellan gum, and boiler chemicals.

18 OTA supports the proposal to

19 remove synthetic glycerin from the National

20 List. It is time we agree to make this change

21 because organic glycerin is available and more

22 can be made. We understand that the supply of
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1 organic glycerin today falls short of current

2 demand, and for natural flavors and "made with

3 products", organic glycerin is not required.

4 Accordingly, we also support the

5 proposal to list glycerin on 205.606 of the

6 National List as an allowed non-organic

7 agricultural substance that can be used only

8 when organic forms are not available.

9 Our concern is with the

10 classification motion that narrowly defines

11 agricultural glycerin as a product of

12 fermentation. Let's take a look at the

13 different types of glycerin that are of

14 interest to the organic sector. That is

15 actually the chart.

16 The type listed at the top starts

17 with fats and oils and uses alkali processing

18 aids such as sodium hydroxide to separate the

19 fatty acids from the glycerin. This is the

20 synthetic form that the Subcommittee is

21 proposing to remove.

22 The next three types of glycerin
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1 are derived from agricultural starting

2 material and processed using biological and

3 mechanical methods. All three forms would be

4 classified as agricultural, according to

5 NOSB's adopted recommendation on

6 classification of materials and NOP's

7 corresponding Draft Guidance. All three forms

8 can also be made organically, and for all

9 three forms there are no ancillary substances

10 added. Pure glycerin is just that, pure.

11 OTA believes the proposal must

12 clearly recognize all agricultural forms of

13 glycerin. A clarification to the proposal can

14 easily be accomplished by making a minor

15 technical correction, as you see here on the

16 screen, the classification motion.

17 We don't believe this is a

18 substantive change, but, rather, a technical

19 clarification. The listing motions remain

20 unchanged. We believe the Handling

21 Subcommittee used the fermentation form as an

22 example. However, the allowed agricultural
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1 forms of glycerin should be determined by the

2 NOSB's and NOP's adopted guidance on

3 classification.

4 Certifiers will be able to

5 evaluate the allowed forms of glycerin using

6 this guidance, and further specificity can be

7 provided through NOP's permitted substance

8 list for handling materials. This approach

9 will stand the test of time and respect all of

10 the good work that has been done on

11 classification of materials.

12 Gellan gum. First, I want to say

13 that OTA supports the continued allowance of

14 non-organic substances on the National List

15 only when they are essential, compatible with

16 organic principles, and cause no harm to human

17 health or to the environment.

18 In the case of gellan gum, we are

19 not aware of any organic vegetarian gum that

20 would serve as a suitable and equally21 functional alternative. OTA believes that it

22 is important that the Board recognize that
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1 many companies voluntarily chose to remove

2 carrageenan from their products as a result of

3 the controversial discussions and information

4 that came out of its sunset review in 2012. 

5 Through research and development, several

6 companies, many companies, and many more, they

7 have identified gellan gum as the acceptable

8 and suitable alternative to carrageenan. They

9 have invested into reformulating and labeling

10 their products with gellan gum, only to learn

11 now that there is an active process to remove

12 this material from the National List as well. 

13 This is no way a company can live in these

14 unstable conditions.

15 We are not aware of any new

16 information that supports a conflict with OFPA

17 or the regulations. To the best of our

18 knowledge, gellan gum is essential.

19 Boiler chemicals. OTA believes

20 that all three boiler chemicals, based on our

21 initial review, are no longer essential

22 because an effective and commercially-
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1 available mechanical device, a steam

2 generator, may now be used at the point at

3 which packaging sterilization is needed.

4 We do want to point out, however,

5 that this equipment is not cheap and it is

6 often most challenging for the small to

7 medium-sized food processors to adopt

8 alternative practices when there is a high

9 capital investment in new equipment involved. 

10 Here is the shiny piece of equipment.

11 We make this point in

12 consideration of timelines that may be needed

13 for organic operations, particularly small

14 operations, to transition and comply with new

15 requirements.

16 Jay, John, Joe, and Wendy, thank

17 you so much for your service. We are going to

18 miss you. We can't wait to have you out in

19 the audience with us.

20 Thank you very much. It has been

21 a pleasure to provide comments here today. 

22 Thank you, and thank you again, and thank you.
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1 (Laughter.)

2 Thank you.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: It's just not

4 going to work. Sorry.

5 (Laughter.)

6 Thank you, Gwendolyn.

7 Are there any questions or

8 comments?

9 John?

10 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Can whoever is

11 in charge of the slides kick back to the

12 glycerin table? Okay.

13 So, despite the fact, Gwendolyn,

14 that you and I at Oregon Tilth spent many

15 hours talking about glycerin many, many years

16 ago, I am foggy a little bit on some of this. 

17 So, help me out.

18 So, I get the basics. So, I had

19 to write this down because I don't -- this is

20 hard for me to follow. What is the current

21 availability of glycerin from like mechanical

22 or physical methods, like steam? I know what
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1 the distinction is. I just don't know what

2 the availability is. And that is not

3 something that generally comes up on their TR. 

4 Do you know?

5 MS. WYARD: Right, right. Well, I

6 am going to try a little bit. I have been

7 trying to track down this information. It is

8 really difficult.

9 What we do know from the petition

10 -- and I think the petitioner is here, and

11 when he is up, he can help me out here. But

12 the petitioner, I believe that it says that

13 they are producing about 400,000 pounds

14 annually of organic glycerin. So, we know

15 that much is available in organic form, and

16 that is the glycerin that is produced through

17 microbial fermentation of the sugar substrate.

18 There is also, as you can see

19 there, there is organic glycerin available

20 that is produced through the alkali hydrolysis

21 of fats and oils. But I think part of the

22 issue that you are getting at, because I have
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1 seen it in everybody's public comments --

2 well, not everybody's, but several comments

3 that were submitted -- is there is this

4 question of how much non-organic glycerin

5 would be available, agricultural forms,

6 specifically the kind that is made through

7 steam splitting through the mechanical

8 process.

9 Because I think what needs to be

10 recognized is that, if you were to limit the

11 glycerin to agricultural forms only, the kind

12 that is made through fermentation, there is no

13 non-organic glycerin available that is made

14 through fermentation. So, if you were to just

15 limit it to fermentation forms, essentially,

16 you have not given an allowance to use non17 organic. You would only have organic

18 available.

19 If you go with the NOP guidance,

20 NOSB-adopted classification on materials, and

21 allow all glycerin made under

22 biological/mechanical processes, that would
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1 expand to other forms of glycerin,

2 specifically, the kind that is made through

3 enzymolosis, enzymatic hydrolysis, or

4 mechanical steam splitting.

5 The amount of glycerin that is on

6 demand through hydrolysis in the United States

7 if 540 million tons. The on-demand data from

8 membership for the organic sector that we have

9 been able to pull together -- and this is a

10 very low number -- is at least 1 million

11 pounds.

12 I have talked to one company that

13 makes glycerin through the mechanical steam

14 splitting method that can supply 38 million

15 pounds of pure glycerin. That is one company,

16 and I know there's many more. So, 540 million

17 is the demand with hydrolysis. One company is

18 making 38. Thirty-eight divided by 540 is 7

19 percent. We make up 3 percent of the market,

20 1 percent worldwide. I think that there is

21 enough glycerin available to satisfy the needs

22 of the flavor industry, the "made with"
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1 category, and then, the organic, we need to

2 grow that.

3 That was a long answer, but --

4 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: No, it helped,

5 and the glasses are great.

6 MS. WYARD: Thank you.

7 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Go with them. 

8 Stay with them.

9 MS. WYARD: The style?

10 (Laughter.)

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That was very

12 helpful, actually, Gwendolyn. Yes, appreciate

13 it.

14 Tracy?

15 MEMBER FAVRE: Not so much a

16 question as a comment. I did want to clarify

17 that we did actually mean the current proposal

18 listing, classification listing, as an

19 example, not to be inclusive, but I think we

20 all realize from the consternation expressed

21 in the public comments that we were not

22 particularly clear about that. So, thank you.
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1 MS. WYARD: Okay, great. Thank

2 you.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold?

4 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thanks, Jean.

5 Gwen, you're okay because, you

6 know, give it a little bit more time, a couple

7 more years, and then, you will have to have

8 glasses so you can read what you have written

9 down. And then, you are going to have glasses

10 so you can see. So, you have got a ways to go

11 yet.

12 MS. WYARD: Keep watching. I'll

13 be here.

14 (Laughter.)

15 MEMBER AUSTIN: In your

16 presentation in gellan gum and, then, also

17 looking through your guys' submitted written

18 comments and several of the others, it brings

19 us to an interesting point. My first meeting

20 on this Board we got to deal with the issue

21 around carrageenan.

22 And one of the things that came
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1 out of that meeting was the industry

2 stakeholders, the handlers, were tasked with

3 working to find a solution to replace

4 carrageenan out of that.

5 And listening to your comments and

6 the information that you have provided, plus

7 some of the other written public commentary

8 that we have gotten back, it does look like

9 the organic handlers and the stakeholders have

10 begun to move away from carrageenan very

11 aggressively over to gellan gum.

12 But also looking through some of

13 the comments, there is a concern that has been

14 raised around the status of gellan gum around

15 GMOs. And I guess my question would be, at

16 the certifier level, how or should that be

17 dealt with? Is there a process or is there

18 inspections in place that could help to answer

19 and deal with those types of concerns that

20 have been raised as far as the GMO and the

21 status of gellan gum goes?

22 MS. WYARD: Thanks, Harold. I
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1 appreciate that question.

2 Yes, there is definitely a process

3 in place. Any material on the National List

4 must be produced without the use of excluded

5 methods. So, you cannot use gellan gum that

6 has been produced through genetic engineering. 

7 You cannot use that in an NOP-certified

8 product.

9 And I invite any certifier in this

10 room to back me up on this, but the normal

11 process that has been in place since the

12 implementation of the NOP and prior is that

13 every ingredient on the National List is part

14 of the review process, whether it is a

15 certifier or a material review organization. 

16 They check the GMO status. So, they are going

17 to ask questions. It doesn't take an NOSB

18 recommendation or an annotation to flag the

19 review of the GMO status of an ingredient.

20 And they are going to have

21 informed staff that are going to know the

22 right questions to ask. If it is made through
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1 fermentation, they are going to know to ask

2 whether the microorganism has been genetically

3 modified.

4 Just like if we take enzymes, for

5 example, one of the successes in the biotech

6 industry, not a success from our side, but

7 enzymes are often produced from genetically8 modified organisms. Enzymes are on the

9 National List. We do not allow any enzymes

10 that have been produced from a genetically11 modified organism.

12 If genetically-modified gellan gum

13 were the only form of gellan gum available in

14 the world and it sat there on the National

15 List, that does not give a license for that to

16 be used. Certifiers could only allow a non17 GMO form.

18 So, it is at the certifier level,

19 at the MRO level, that that analysis is done. 

20 So, I think that the possibility that there

21 might be a genetically-modified gellan gum --

22 and I am going to let Cheryl from CP Kelco
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1 speak to the status in detail, but I think at

2 this level of review, I think that you have to

3 trust that the certifiers and the MROs are

4 going to make those determinations and not

5 allow it if it is GMO.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

7 MS. WYARD: Thank you very much.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

9 questions?

10 (No response.)

11 Okay, thanks very much, Gwendolyn.

12 MS. WYARD: Thank you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Let's move on

14 now to Star Maule, and on deck we have Johanna

15 Mirenda.

16 And again, I remind you we are

17 running about half-an-hour behind time now.

18 MS. MAULE: Good afternoon.

19 My name is Star Maule, and I work

20 as a Certification Specialist at Organic

21 Valley Crop Cooperative.

22 And I thank you for the
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1 opportunity to provide public comment.

2 We understand that the NOSB's

3 agenda did not allow for consideration of

4 acidified sodium chloride, or ASC, for

5 livestock as a teat dip at this meeting. 

6 However, we as a cooperative of 1,450

7 certified organic dairy producers would like

8 to express our support of ASC.

9 We feel ASC is necessary as an

10 ingredient, used as a topical

11 disinfectant/sanitizer, and specifically, for

12 pre- and post-livestock udder preventative

13 treatment.

14 ASC is already approved in

15 handling and is applied to the surface of

16 fresh and processed foods, including meats,

17 fruits, vegetables, freshwater fish, and

18 seafood.

19 Studies show that ASC solutions

20 have superior antimicrobial activity against

21 E. Coli and preventing infection, including

22 mastitis.
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1 When used as petitioned, ASC and

2 its components show minimal likelihood of

3 persistence or accumulation in the

4 environment.

5 It is reported that there are

6 homemade alternatives available for teat dips

7 made with ingredients like lavender essential

8 oil, vinegar, tea tree oil, and organic acids. 

9 However, there are no studies proving the

10 effectiveness of such alternatives.

11 Current alternatives available for

12 teat dips in organic livestock production are

13 limited. Additional tools to keep cows

14 healthy and not needing antibiotics would be

15 advantageous.

16 ASC is effective and

17 environmentally-friendly as it breaks down to

18 water, citric acid, and salt after use.

19 In conclusion, acidified sodium

20 chloride has no adverse impacts on humans or

21 the environment. ASC is compatible with

22 organic production practices, and it is
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1 essential for organic production because it

2 has been proven effective, and producers

3 should not be limited on acceptable

4 alternatives to maintain herd health.

5 Having another eco-friendly

6 alternative in their toolbox will help

7 producers avoid resorting to the use of

8 chlorhexidine.

9 Thank you for all of your time and

10 hard work on the National Organic Standards

11 Board.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

13 Star.

14 Questions? Comments?

15 Joe?

16 MEMBER DICKSON: Thank you, Star.

17 So, ASC isn't currently on the

18 National List. So, if it were added to the

19 list, would its allowance replace other

20 materials now in use that are less preferable?

21 MS. MAULE: There are not a lot of

22 alternatives there, and a farmer can only use
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1 chlorhexidine if all other treatments have

2 failed. So, we feel it would be better for

3 the farmers if they had more alternatives that

4 are acceptable in organic production.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

6 questions?

7 (No response.)

8 Excellent. Thanks very much,

9 Star.

10 MS. MAULE: Thank you.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We have Johanna

12 Mirenda up now, and Randy Mitchell on standby.

13 MS. MIRENDA: Hi, everyone. I'm

14 Johanna Mirenda, Policy Director for

15 Pennsylvania Certified Organic, a USDA16 accredited, certified agency operating within

17 the Mid-Atlantic Region and certifying

18 approximately 700 organic operations.

19 I would like to use this brief

20 opportunity to comment on the work of the

21 National Organic Standards Board and the

22 National Organic Program, and highlight the
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1 types of outcomes that have enhanced the

2 integrity and consistency of our certified

3 organic process.

4 As a certifier, the work of our

5 agency is heavily reliant on clear regulatory

6 expectations from the Board and the program. 

7 We work closely with hundreds of individual

8 farmers and handlers of all types and sizes,

9 each with their own background, management

10 systems, and business priorities.

11 Our unique juxtaposition between

12 the regulatory bodies and the certificate13 holders allows us to observe on a daily basis

14 how the recommendations from the Board, and

15 ultimately the requirements from the program,

16 affect each operation.

17 We have found success in

18 implementing thoughtful and factually19 supported regulatory requirements that align

20 with the core values of sustainability,

21 allowing for growth of the industry, and

22 appeal to the diversity of farmers and food
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1 manufacturers.

2 Our experience has shown that,

3 regardless of the differences among our

4 clients, our colleagues within organic

5 certification, or among the greater organic

6 community of consumers and advocates that want

7 to see organic succeed as an industry, we all

8 have several key values in common. We all

9 want clear and fair regulations, a strong and

10 consistent enforcement system, and a

11 transparent process with public participation.

12 We appreciate the recent

13 contributions from the program that uphold

14 these values, particularly through the

15 instructions, guidances, and policy memos that

16 have been incorporated into the Program

17 Handbook. These publications have made

18 significant improvements to the clarity and

19 consistency of the certifier review process

20 and compliance procedure, creating a fair

21 playing field for certifiers and certificate22 holder across the country and the globe.
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1 We also appreciate the Board for

2 increasingly thorough recommendations and

3 detailed technical reviews. Your recent

4 sunset material summaries will be an

5 invaluable reference during our future

6 material reviews, when certifiers will

7 inevitably ask ourselves, just what exactly

8 did the NOSB cover in their review back then?

9 This type of work by the NOSB and

10 the NOP is making organic certification

11 stronger by being more enforceable,

12 consistent, and transparent. These are values

13 that our agency upholds and seeks to

14 continuously improve with every new season,

15 new client, or new issue.

16 As a sort of regulatory

17 gatekeeper, the Board is faced with the

18 exceptional challenge of ensuring that the

19 integrity of organic agriculture is maintained

20 as the organic industry expands. And being

21 that the industry is at 35 billion and

22 growing, this is quite a timely issue.
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1 To that end, we acknowledge that

2 there is always more to do to develop and to

3 reassess in an ever-changing environment. 

4 Your work plans are long and the sunset

5 reviews are limitless, but your sound and

6 sensible efforts to uphold our common values

7 of diversity, sustainability, and integrity

8 are appreciated.

9 Thank you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

11 Johanna.

12 Questions? Comments?

13 (No response.)

14 Thank you very much.

15 The next speaker is Randy

16 Mitchell, and on standby is Brad Alstrom.

17 MR. MITCHELL: Okay, as Michelle

18 pulls up my slides here, my name is Randy

19 Mitchell. I'm with Coleman Natural Foods and

20 speaking to you today on behalf of the

21 Methionine Task Force specifically on high22 protein corn and organic poultry diets. I am
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1 a practicing poultry nutritionist with 20

2 years of experience in commercial and organic

3 broilers and other poultry, turkeys, et

4 cetera.

5 I wanted to, again, just touch

6 base on the problem with methionine in organic

7 poultry diets. Methionine and cystine and

8 available organic feed ingredients are

9 inadequate to meet the essential needs for

10 poultry. Therefore, synthetic methionine is

11 needed in organic broiler diets today. 

12 However, it is the stated desire of the NOP

13 and the Methionine Task Force to eventually

14 remove synthetic methionine, as more natural

15 alternatives are available.

16 High-protein corn, aka high17 methionine corn, has been proposed as a

18 solution to the synthetic methionine question. 

19 And as we look at the nutrient composition of

20 high-methionine corn or high-protein corn, you

21 can see that the conventional corn, on the

22 left, has got fairly low protein compared to
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1 the two types of high-protein corn and, yes,

2 the methionine level is much higher. But, if

3 you look at it as a percent of protein, the

4 methionine is really not that much higher. 

5 And if you look at what is really important

6 from a nutritional standpoint, the methionine

7 plus cystine as a percent of protein is no

8 higher than conventional corn. That is very

9 important from a nutrient formulation

10 standpoint when we are looking at organic

11 diets.

12 The other issue with high-protein

13 corn is the yield. There is a severe yield

14 disadvantage compared to many of the top15 yielding non-GMO varieties grown by organic

16 farmers today. Past experience for me and

17 other grain companies says that farmers are

18 not willing to take those losses, sacrifice

19 yield.

20 I have been involved with two

21 specialty grain crops in my career that I was

22 very excited about, trying to push through
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1 performance to grow, and they have been

2 unsuccessful because of a number of these

3 issues here that are listed: identity

4 preservation, but one of the big ones is how

5 to incentivize farmers to grow this corn. It

6 is very difficult with a yield loss.

7 However, just in summary, high8 protein corn would be a valuable ingredient

9 for poultry nutrition as formulated in organic

10 diets. However, when we formulate 100 percent

11 of the corn as this high-protein corn, it is

12 not a total solution for this synthetic

13 methionine, especially in young broiler diets

14 where the methionine level is the highest and

15 the corn content is the lowest.

16 And even if it is available, the

17 widespread adoption of high-protein corn by

18 organic corn farmers is very unlikely because

19 of the loss in yield.

20 Thank you.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

22 much.
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1 Questions?

2 Tracy?

3 MEMBER FAVRE: So, do you have a

4 suggested alternative?

5 MR. MITCHELL: A suggested

6 alternative for synthetic methionine?

7 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes. If the high8 methionine corn is not going to be the silver

9 bullet, are there other things out there that

10 might work for us instead?

11 MR. MITCHELL: Well, there are a

12 number of ingredients that have been

13 identified that could help with this problem. 

14 But the availability of them in organic form

15 is essentially unavailable.

16 Corn gluten meal, it was mentioned

17 earlier about the 5 percent of non-organic

18 ingredients that are used in Europe. Corn

19 gluten meal, potato meal, those are the non20 organic ingredients used in Europe for those

21 purposes because they are high in methionine. 

22 There is no organic corn gluten meal. It just
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1 doesn't exist.

2 So, it is not that some

3 ingredients aren't available. It is they are

4 not available in adequate quantities in an

5 organic form.

6 And it is a very complex question

7 because, even if some things are available,

8 getting them in an organic form is very

9 difficult, and how to incentivize that when

10 the market for organic feed is fairly small.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nick?

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: Thank you for

13 your presentation. Very informative.

14 Could we go back to the slide that

15 shows the chart of the mix of the proteins in

16 the different types of corn?

17 MR. MITCHELL: Sure.

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: And I guess I

19 just need to understand that chart a little

20 bit better, not being a nutritionist, but

21 being a poultry producer and a corn grower and

22 a corn seed grower as well.
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1 The protein that you have under

2 the conventional is at about 9.5 percent, I

3 assume by dry matter?

4 MR. MITCHELL: That is on a dry5 matter basis, correct.

6 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

7 MR. MITCHELL: Yes.

8 MEMBER MARAVELL: And what you are

9 seeing is that the hard endosperm corn is

10 going to have a slightly-higher protein than

11 the soft endosperm, but those are high-protein

12 corns. And those are also corns that are

13 probably more similar to what was found when

14 we discovered corn in America. The

15 composition of the protein in the older

16 varieties was generally higher. And corn,

17 when it was bred, except for certain varieties

18 which were flour corns, are being bred now for

19 their carbon or for their starch or for the

20 soft endosperm.

21 MR. MITCHELL: Exactly.

22 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes. So, I
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1 guess what I am saying is, when you have the

2 percentage of methionine, that percentage of

3 methionine is roughly 50-percent higher in the

4 high-protein corns. Would that be a fair

5 statement, that the percentage of methionine

6 is higher in the high-protein corn?

7 MR. MITCHELL: Yes, the percentage

8 of methionine is higher. I certainly don't

9 want to give the impression that I wouldn't

10 like to have this ingredient today. I would

11 love to have it to formulate organic diets

12 with. It would help us. It would reduce our

13 protein levels in our starter feeds probably

14 by, I would say, a percent, maybe a percent

15 and a half, which would help with some of the

16 mortality issues that we saw earlier. 

17 However, we would still require the two pounds

18 of methionine to meet the total sulfur, the

19 methionine requirement of the bird.

20 MEMBER MARAVELL: You're saying

21 you would still require the synthetic

22 methionine?
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1 MR. MITCHELL: Yes. Yes, in order

2 to meet that requirement, yes.

3 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right. Well,

4 the amount of protein in a bushel of corn

5 under the high-protein is going to be higher.

6 MR. MITCHELL: Correct.

7 MEMBER MARAVELL: And so, the

8 absolute amount of methionine is going to be

9 higher in that bushel, is that correct?

10 MR. MITCHELL: That would be

11 correct.

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: So, I guess

13 where I am going with this is, well, let me go

14 down to the methionine and cystine mix as

15 well. There, actually, it appears that there

16 isn't any difference in the methionine plus

17 the cystine mix as a percentage of total

18 protein.

19 MR. MITCHELL: That's correct.

20 MEMBER MARAVELL: So, the mix, the

21 balance is the same, but the total amount of

22 protein per kernel or per bushel is higher?
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1 MR. MITCHELL: Yes, that's right.

2 MEMBER MARAVELL: Okay.

3 MR. MITCHELL: And how that would

4 help in a way is we would be able to feed a

5 little bit less soybean meal, a little bit

6 more corn.

7 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right.

8 MR. MITCHELL: And so, the total

9 amount of protein in a starter diet, for

10 example, would be able to come down, which

11 would help somewhat with some of the

12 conditions we have for birds today.

13 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right. So, I

14 guess the cost issue, then, is one of, well,

15 how much is a bushel of corn worth? And what

16 we are seeing here -- and maybe this is

17 somewhat of an educational process -- is that

18 not all corn might not have the same

19 nutritional profile, if you will.

20 MR. MITCHELL: Correct.

21 MEMBER MARAVELL: Perhaps some

22 corn should cost more. But let me just go on
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1 and say, if the yield is less but it costs a

2 little bit more, but it is yielding higher

3 protein, it may have some value.

4 So, as a corn grower and as a corn

5 seed grower, I would love to produce -- and,

6 actually, I do produce -- some corns with

7 higher protein profiles. But I would love to

8 produce a variety that would be -- and I am

9 also a poultry feed producer as well. We also

10 grind our own poultry and sell poultry feed. 

11 I would love to have the ability to put high12 protein corn into production and sell it into

13 the market, put it into the feed.

14 And I am looking at your chart

15 there, and I am saying I think it has some

16 ability to provide a solution here. It may

17 not be the total solution, but I think that

18 the corn could be valuable and could warrant

19 a premium because it has a different

20 nutritional profile.

21 So, I am just trying to bounce

22 that off of you because you're much more into
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1 the business than, indeed, I am.

2 MR. MITCHELL: Right. And I would

3 agree with you that it would, in a situation

4 like yours where you are growing your own

5 corn, you are contracting the acres, you can

6 identity-preserve it, it would be a great

7 scenario.

8 However, when it goes into

9 commerce and you have all the extra expense,

10 so when you are looking at it from a total

11 market standpoint, it makes it very difficult

12 from a logistic standpoint, unless it were to

13 replace all of the corn out there, which is

14 not practical.

15 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

17 much.

18 Oh, I'm sorry.

19 MEMBER FAVRE: I'm sorry, I had

20 one more quick question.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tracy has a

22 question. I'm sorry.
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1 MEMBER FAVRE: We had asked Mr.

2 Leventini previously about the step-downs that

3 were proposed in the previous recommendation

4 for methionine.

5 MR. MITCHELL: Uh-hum.

6 MEMBER FAVRE: And he basically

7 deferred to you and said that you might have

8 some insight as to how those step-down numbers

9 were reached, if you were on the Methionine

10 Task Force at that time.

11 MR. MITCHELL: I wasn't on the

12 Methionine Task Force at that time, and I can

13 tell you there was no science used to come up

14 with those numbers.

15 MEMBER FAVRE: Okay.

16 MR. MITCHELL: I mean, I don't

17 know who --

18 MEMBER FAVRE: Arbitrary?

19 MR. MITCHELL: -- came up with

20 them, but --

21 MEMBER FAVRE: But you feel it was

22 an arbitrary number that was reached?
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1 MR. MITCHELL: It was an arbitrary

2 number. For broilers, I know specifically. 

3 I mean, I am a turkey nutritionist as well,

4 and the requirement for turkeys is at three

5 pounds, as an example, and broilers are at two

6 pounds. And the actual requirement or the

7 allowed for turkeys is three pounds and for

8 broilers two pounds. And the actual

9 methionine requirement for turkeys, it is not

10 that much higher for broilers.

11 So, how they came up with those

12 numbers I have no idea. And so, it puts

13 broilers at a much more disadvantage because

14 they spend such a large portion of their life

15 in the highest methionine requirement time

16 period, which is usually in the first three to

17 four weeks.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Calvin?

19 MEMBER WALKER: It is good to have

20 a poultry nutritionist. We could use them at

21 Southern University A&M College.

22 The question I asked the gentleman
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1 before, the petition mentioned the term, the

2 methionine step-down was "marginally

3 adequate".

4 MR. MITCHELL: Right.

5 MEMBER WALKER: As a nutritionist,

6 could you explain that definition?

7 MR. MITCHELL: Well, I am not sure

8 if this will fit into Webster's or not, but

9 when I would hear that term right there, what

10 I would think of, if something is marginally

11 adequate, would be where a good portion of the

12 flocks that you would grow would not show any

13 clinical symptoms, but you may have 20-30

14 percent that would either show subclinical or

15 clinical symptoms.

16 So, if you look at one individual

17 flock, you may say, well, this flock is fine. 

18 So, if we judge everything we do based on this

19 one flock, you will be okay. And that is one

20 problem we get even in the university small

21 pen studies. It is that there is so much

22 variation in disease challenges, just
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1 variation in crops that can occur, that if you

2 look at one individual study, it will say, oh,

3 with this level of methionine, it is fine. 

4 When you get out in the field and you have a

5 lot of variation factors, that there will be

6 a certain number of flocks -- it may be 10; it

7 may be 20 percent -- that you will have

8 clinical symptoms of deficiencies, and the

9 other 80 percent may be fine.

10 So, does that help? Okay.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I have two more

12 questions on this topic before we close it

13 off. First, Mac, and then, Tracy.

14 MEMBER STONE: So, we talk about

15 two pounds of synthetic methionine per ton. 

16 How many pounds of methionine are in that ton,

17 natural pounds, are in that ton of feed with

18 typical feedstuffs?

19 MR. MITCHELL: okay. With typical

20 feedstuffs, two pounds of methionine are .1

21 percent. So, you would have about 14 pounds,

22 if I am doing the math right. No, actually,
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1 that is total methionine plus cystine would be

2 about 14. It would be about .7 percent, if I

3 am doing that math right. Out of 2,000

4 pounds, it would be -- is that 14 pounds? I

5 believe so.

6 MEMBER STONE: Okay, thanks.

7 MR. MITCHELL: Okay.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tracy?

9 MEMBER FAVRE: Okay, my very last

10 brief question would be, how long would you

11 surmise it would take to bring a product like

12 a high-methionine corn to market? This may be

13 beyond your expertise. But, in your

14 experience, what does it really take to take

15 a product from sort of a developmental grow16 out stage to where we get to full commercial

17 availability timeline-wise?

18 MR. MITCHELL: Well, I met with

19 Pioneer -- it was from DuPont; it was one of

20 the largest seed companies in the world --

21 probably less than two months ago, probably

22 six weeks ago. And we were there specifically
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1 looking at their non-GMO varieties that they

2 had, that they are working on how to improve. 

3 And they are looking at a timeline from when

4 they start developing to marketing of 10-plus

5 years.

6 And not only is that a case, it is

7 really the adoption in the marketplace. As I

8 mentioned, I have had two experiences in my

9 career with specialty corns, which I was very

10 excited about, and they offered a lot of value

11 to an end-user, as the high-methionine corn

12 would to an organic user.

13 And it is literally going out and

14 convincing the grower why they should grow

15 this corn, because they have a choice about

16 what to do. And if you say, "Well, this is

17 the only corn I want to buy," then they can go

18 plant something else, and they will. I mean,

19 we have seen that time after time. They will

20 not take a loss in yield that is going to

21 reduce their income per acre. So, it is an

22 arduous task, yes.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

2 much, Randy. That was very helpful.

3 The next speaker is Brad Alstrom,

4 with Patrick Kerrigan on deck.

5 MR. ALSTROM: Hello. My name is

6 Brad Alstrom. I am an organic foods retailer

7 from Paoli, Indiana. I am testifying on

8 behalf of Cornucopia Institute today.

9 I work with a grocery co-op in

10 Bloomington, Indiana, called Blooming Foods. 

11 Bloomington is a town of about 80,000 people,

12 home to Indiana University. Our co-op is

13 owned by 12,000 consumer members and employs

14 over 300 people at five locations. We are a

15 significant player in our Bloomington, Indiana

16 grocery market and, also, part of a larger

17 national association of grocery co-ops with

18 combined retail sales of over $1.6 billion.

19 My work at Blooming Foods is as a

20 Regional Development Coordinator. I work to

21 support growing and emerging food co-ops in

22 our greater Indiana region.
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1 Blooming Foods sells a large

2 variety of grocery products, including organic

3 to conventional, from local to specialty. Our

4 emphasis is on fresh foods, including produce,

5 meats, dairy, and freshly-prepared deli foods.

6 A large percentage of the products

7 that Blooming Foods carries are certified

8 organic. And as these organic foods, and the

9 integrity thereof, that is the primary point

10 of differentiation for our business and it is

11 what member/owners and customers look for. 

12 They expect Blooming Foods to carry products

13 with ingredients they can trust.

14 Blooming Foods has been a long15 time supporter of the Cornucopia Institute in

16 its efforts to protect the integrity of USDA

17 organic standards. I am here today as a

18 citizen lobbyist, and I am volunteering

19 testimony because I want to help ensure the

20 integrity of organic foods.

21 I would like to comment today on

22 the 2016 sunset of a farm input called ferric
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1 phosphate as an allowed synthetic on the

2 National List. Ferric phosphate is used as

3 slug and snail bait.

4 The Cornucopia Institute

5 recommends the removal of ferric phosphate

6 from the National List based on independent

7 research that demonstrates its use as a slug

8 and snail bait is only effective with the

9 addition of a chelating agent, such as EDTA.

10 EDTA, present in all slug and

11 snail baits in the U.S., is toxic to soil

12 microorganisms and its non-target species,

13 including earthworms and plants, and can

14 contribute to groundwater contamination. It

15 is persistent in the environment and has

16 concerns for human health and calcium

17 absorption. Its addition to the National List

18 is unlikely.

19 In 2007, the NOSB Crops

20 Subcommittee voted to reject the petition to

21 include sodium ferric hydroxy-EDTA on the

22 National List as a slug or snail bait because
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1 of the potential for EDTA to be harmful to the

2 environment.

3 In 2009, ferric phosphate was

4 petitioned to be removed from the National

5 List under the argument that it is ineffective

6 without EDTA. The Crops Subcommittee voted to

7 keep ferric phosphate on the National List

8 under the view that the generic added active

9 ingredient needs to be considered separately

10 from any other ingredients.

11 There's little scientific evidence

12 that the generic active ingredient ferric

13 phosphate is effective without the addition of

14 a chelating agent. Chelating agents are slow

15 to degrade and are known to have a negative

16 effective on soil, microbial communities, as

17 well as lower yields in some crops. Chelating

18 agents also have the potential to pollute

19 groundwater by leaching metals from soils.

20 Having a material on the National

21 List that is only effective and available

22 commercially with a supposedly-inert substance
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1 that does not meet the requirements of OFPA

2 only creates confusion.

3 In conclusion, the Cornucopia

4 Institute opposed the relisting of ferric

5 phosphate because it is not effective without

6 chelating agents that have known negative

7 impacts to human health and the environment.

8 Personally, having lived in the

9 Pacific Northwest also for a number of years,

10 where slugs are rampant and grow to rather

11 enormous sizes, I found that beer, and organic

12 beer, in particular, makes a perfectly13 suitable slug bait. But that is my own

14 personal experience.

15 On behalf of Cornucopia Institute,

16 I want to thank you for allowing me to present

17 testimony. If you have questions about this

18 testimony, I encourage you to speak with one

19 of Cornucopia's staff members present here at

20 the meeting.

21 Thank you.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very
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1 much.

2 The next speaker is Patrick

3 Kerrigan, and on deck is Cheryl Van Dyne.

4 MR. KERRIGAN: Hi. Is Michelle

5 here? Oh, you are Michelle? Okay. Michelle,

6 here's our comments to the NOSB on vaccines

7 that are used. Thanks.

8 Hello. My name is Pat Kerrigan. 

9 I am Retail Education Coordinator for the

10 Organic Consumers Association, which

11 represents 2 million North American members

12 and readers in safeguarding organic standards.

13 Coordinating OCA's GMO-Free

14 Groceries Contest and Best Practices Online

15 Toolkit, I have learned that co-op and natural

16 food customers across the country are told by

17 their groceries that, if they want to be

18 certain to avoid GMOs, they should look for

19 the USDA organic seal.

20 The glaring exception to this

21 industry-wide recommendation is the

22 administration of GMO vaccines to organic
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1 livestock. The National Organic Program knows

2 and has admitted that genetically-engineered

3 vaccines are being used. Yet, to date, not

4 one GMO vaccine has been submitted for review

5 to the National Organic Standards Board, as

6 required by law.

7 Consumers pay a significant

8 premium for the added value that they assign

9 to organically-produced livestock products. 

10 Allowing unapproved vaccines developed from

11 excluded methods to be given to organic

12 livestock is a serious violation of the

13 organic rules and a betrayal of the public's

14 trust in the integrity of organic.

15 Knowing that the organic meats and

16 dairy products that they purchase are coming

17 from animals vaccinated with unapproved GMO

18 vaccines seriously damages consumers' trust in

19 these products and in the organic seal itself.

20 GMO vaccines are inherently

21 unpredictable and possibly dangerous. 

22 According to a review of the risks prepared
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1 for the NOSB's own Technical Advisory Panel,

2 quote, "The non-pathogenic strain present in

3 the vaccine may mutate or combine with other

4 strains to become pathogenic after

5 administration."

6 With bacterial GMO vaccines, which

7 are primarily administered via the mouth,

8 there are concerns that engineered bacteria

9 may recombine with natural bacterial in the

10 gastrointestinal tract, shed DNA in the

11 animal's feces and other secretions, could

12 potentially infect other animals, and spread

13 the virus or bacteria, or recombine with

14 naturally-occurring viruses, forming altered

15 virus strains with unpredictable

16 characteristics.

17 It is time for the NOSB to assert

18 its authority to review, regulate, and when

19 appropriate, prohibit genetically-engineered

20 vaccines. The NOSB should tell the NOP to

21 enforce the law and get GMO vaccines, none of

22 which have been reviewed or approved, out of
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1 organic.

2 And it is time for the NOP to

3 require that every vaccine used in organic be

4 petitioned for review. So that the NOSB, with

5 the help of the Technical Advisory Panel, can

6 determine which ones have been genetically

7 engineered and, of those, which, if any,

8 should be allowed in organic production.

9 The work of the Livestock

10 Committee is much appreciated, and its

11 recommendations should be passed and

12 implemented by the NOP. But please don't stop

13 there. What is really needed is the

14 recommendation from the NOSB directing the NOP

15 to inform the manufacturers of the

16 approximately 73 registered animal vaccines

17 that, if they want their vaccines to continue

18 to be used in organic, they submit petitions

19 to the NOSB seeking their approval.

20 The problem of GMO vaccines

21 illegally being used in organic cannot

22 continue to be a game of hot potato between
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1 the NOP and the NOSB. At some point the

2 vaccine manufacturers have to be held

3 accountable to the law.

4 And then, please be respectful of

5 the decades of work that organic farmers,

6 retailers, and other early pioneers have

7 invested into developing the strong organic

8 standards that organic consumers believe and

9 put their trust in, making organic the long10 time food industry leader in sales growth,

11 currently more than $35 billion per year.

12 The cornerstone for organic

13 agriculture is continually building the

14 quality of the soil. The cornerstone for the

15 NOSB's work should be continually building

16 stronger organic standards that improve the

17 integrity of the organic seal by reducing the

18 number of synthetics allowed in organic,

19 rather than increasing them.

20 Thank you so much for your

21 service. Thank you for your time.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.
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1 Questions?

2 Calvin?

3 MEMBER WALKER: There is another

4 part of your sentence you didn't finish?

5 MR. KERRIGAN: There's another

6 sentence, but, I mean, I could read it. I

7 don't want to take people's time, you know. 

8 But I'll give you a copy, though.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Questions?

10 (No response.)

11 Thank you very much.

12 MR. KERRIGAN: All right. Thank

13 you.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

15 speaker will be Cheryl Van Dyne, followed by

16 Zareb Herman.

17 And I should comment here that we

18 are running quite a long way behind. So, if

19 instead of taking a full 15-minute break,

20 which might go later, I would ask that you

21 just go out and come back as you need to. And

22 members of the Board have a list of who is
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1 going to be speaking in what order. So, if

2 you know you are going to be asking questions,

3 just go out and come back.

4 Thanks.

5 MS. VAN DYNE: Okay, thank you

6 very much, and thank you for the opportunity

7 to present public comments.

8 My name is Cheryl Van Dyne. I am

9 the Director of Global Regulatory Affairs for

10 CP Kelco. CP Kelco is the original petitioner

11 of gellan gum, 205.605(a), gellan gum, non12 synthetic, and we are presenting additional

13 comments in support of the essentiality of

14 gellan gum during this sunset process.

15 CP Kelco has provided relevant

16 data and information to demonstrate that

17 gellan gum is not harmful to health, human

18 health, or the environment; necessary to the

19 production of agricultural products because of

20 the unavailability of holding on synthetic

21 substitute products and consistent with

22 organic handling.
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1 Gellan gum is not harmful to human

2 health, and some data to support that is the

3 TAP report for gellan gum with no adverse

4 findings. Gellan has global approval as a

5 food additive, and including JECFA, which is

6 the WHO, World Health Organization, and the

7 U.S. FDA, as a food additive. And there are

8 no environmental impacts from the manufacture,

9 use, or disposal of gellan gum.

10 Gellan gum is unique, and it

11 provides the organic industry with essential

12 properties that are needed to formulate

13 beverage and food products for delivery of

14 healthy organic choices to consumers. Without

15 gellan gum, producers of organic fortified

16 beverages cannot provide consumer assurance of

17 consistent delivery of vitamins, minerals, or

18 other important nutrients. And gellan gum has

19 the unique ability to send these nutrients

20 versus other gums on the National List or

21 available as organic.

22 This slide is a process flow, and
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1 it is to address the gellan gum that is

2 offered to the organic community by CP Kelco. 

3 It is from a pure non-GMO culture of

4 sphingomonas elodea. During the fermentation

5 or growth, which is a multiplication of the

6 cell process, the sphingomonas elodea bacteria

7 metabolizes a broth of non-GMO nutrient media. 

8 It is during this process that the organism

9 produces the water-soluble, high-molecular10 weight polysaccharide or gum.

11 At the end of the growth cycle,

12 heat is applied and a processing aid,

13 isopropyl alcohol, is used to separate the

14 polysaccharide or gum from the broth. The

15 spent cells, water, and IPA are separated from

16 the gellan gum, which is then dried and

17 milled. And IPA is a residual from

18 manufacturing and does not chemically alter

19 the gellan gum.

20 Gellan gum, high-acyl gellan gum

21 is consistent with organic handling, and CP

22 Kelco respectfully requests the NOSB preserve
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1 this listing for the organic community at

2 large, both producers and consumers.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

4 Cheryl.

5 Questions?

6 Zea?

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

8 As you may or may not know, we

9 have started a procedure and handling

10 processes to assess what we are referring to

11 as ancillary substances --

12 MS. VAN DYNE: Uh-hum.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: -- better known

14 by you probably as incidental additives.

15 Does your gellan gum contain any

16 ancillary substances?

17 MS. VAN DYNE: No. As a

18 polysaccharide, it is pure gellan gum. And

19 the products that CP Kelco offers,

20 particularly to the organic industry, there is

21 a pure version and, then, there is a version

22 that is sugar. So, there are no ancillary
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1 substances.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jay?

3 MEMBER FELDMAN: Maybe this is

4 best addressed to the Subcommittee. But have

5 you provided the manufacturing processes to

6 the NOSB? You're the original petitioner as

7 well, right, 2004?

8 MS. VAN DYNE: I'm sorry, I'm not

9 understanding what you're asking.

10 MEMBER FELDMAN: Well, I am

11 wondering if this Board has information on the 

12 manufacturing processes that you all use in

13 producing the gellan gum.

14 MS. VAN DYNE: Okay. I guess I

15 still am not understanding. This is the

16 manufacturing process.

17 MEMBER FELDMAN: Right.

18 MS. VAN DYNE: As I went through,

19 I don't know if you saw the slide deck.

20 MEMBER FELDMAN: Right. So, does

21 the petition itself, the original petition --

22 MS. VAN DYNE: Uh-hum.
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1 MEMBER FELDMAN: -- have the

2 manufacturing process in it?

3 MS. VAN DYNE: Yes, it did.

4 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. Thank you.

5 MS. VAN DYNE: Thank you.

6 MEMBER DICKSON: Some of the

7 written commenters for this meeting raised a

8 question as to whether the microorganism

9 itself was genetically modified. And you seem

10 to have confirmed here in your presentation

11 that the one you use is not?

12 MS. VAN DYNE: Uh-hum.

13 MEMBER DICKSON: Are you aware of

14 any other GMO versions of this microorganism

15 or other --

16 MS. VAN DYNE: There can be other

17 versions of it that are GMO.

18 MEMBER DICKSON: Are there gellan

19 gums in the marketplace that you know of that

20 are the product of those microorganisms?

21 MS. VAN DYNE: Yes, there are,

22 uh-hum.
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1 MEMBER DICKSON: But none of the

2 ones you manufacture?

3 MS. VAN DYNE: No, not the ones

4 that CP Kelco offers, uh-uh.

5 MEMBER DICKSON: Okay. Thank you.

6 MS. VAN DYNE: Uh-hum.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold?

8 MEMBER AUSTIN: A two-part

9 question. I think part, to follow up on Jay's

10 question, was, during the original petition,

11 was there any information that was redacted in

12 that for gellan gum, for the original petition

13 when it was given to the Board?

14 MS. VAN DYNE: During -- I'm

15 sorry, Harold. I'm --

16 MEMBER AUSTIN: When gellan gum

17 was originally petitioned, was there any

18 redacted information in that original

19 petition?

20 MS. VAN DYNE: Oh, well, of

21 course, full information was given during the

22 petition process to the TAP Review Board or
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1 the Reviewer Board.

2 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay.

3 MS. VAN DYNE: There is certain

4 information that is proprietary to CP Kelco,

5 such as certain nutrient media, et cetera, not

6 the nutrient media issue, but just the

7 nutrient, you know, how we use it, the

8 process. As proprietary business information

9 which if falls into the hands of our

10 competitors, they could make the gellan gum.

11 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. To follow

12 up with that, during an annual review by an

13 inspector, a certifier, how difficult or non14 difficult would it be for them to ensure that

15 the source of your raw material, you know,

16 your material and stuff is not GMO and that

17 type of stuff, to ensure that what the claim

18 is the material is, that is really is, when

19 you undergo your annual review?

20 MS. VAN DYNE: That is a fair

21 question because I think it is really relevant

22 that certifiers are free to ask us questions
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1 during that process, their review process. 

2 And we provide them with all the information

3 that they need to make their decision, and it

4 includes statements and letters and

5 affidavits. So, we provide that information,

6 whatever they need to make their decision.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

8 much.

9 MS. VAN DYNE: Thank you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

11 speaker is Zareb Herman, and after that, the

12 next one I Wanda Jurlina.

13 MR. HERMAN: My name is Zareb

14 Herman. I am a Food Scientist with the Hain

15 Celestial Group, one of the largest producers

16 of organic products in the world.

17 We wish to support the relisting

18 of sodium acid pyrophosphate, also known as

19 SAP. SAP is a leavening agent used by many

20 organic food manufacturers. We use it for

21 leavening in a number of our organic products,

22 including cake and cookie mixes and frozen
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1 pancakes and waffles.

2 When SAP is mixed with baking

3 soda, it provides a slow and steady release of

4 carbon dioxide for consistent rise and optimum

5 quality of baked products. Most of the other

6 leavening agents on the National List are

7 fast-acting and are used up too quickly. This

8 can lead to flat, dense, undesirable products.

9 Two substances on the National

10 List, dicalcium phosphate and yeast, are slow11 acting, but they are too slow-acting, too slow

12 except for maybe bread.

13 SAP is the only sustained-release

14 leavening agent on the National List that

15 works in many organic baking applications. 

16 SAP is a simple grass substance that has been

17 used widely in food for many years. And SAP

18 produced in the United States and the vast

19 majority of other countries does not pose a

20 risk to the environment.

21 We also support the relisting of

22 activated charcoal, which is an important
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1 filtering aid that has been used for

2 centuries. It is widely used by organic

3 handlers to filter water and a variety of

4 substances. My company uses it to filter

5 water as well as our refined organic oils.

6 Since organic oils are not

7 solvent-extracted, there are various

8 impurities that need to be removed. Activated

9 charcoal is unique because it has both

10 physical and chemical filtering properties,

11 including ion exchange and surface oxidation. 

12 No other filtering aid on the National List

13 has these properties.

14 Activated charcoal is a grass

15 material. We have requested it remain on the

16 National List as a filtering aid.

17 Finally, we wish to support the

18 relisting of gellan gum. Gellan gum is an

19 essential ingredient in many organic products

20 as a stabilizer or thickener. We use it in a

21 number of our non-dairy beverages that are

22 fortified with calcium, which consumers need
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1 when they cannot drink milk.

2 Gellan is especially effective in

3 keeping not only calcium, but other insoluble

4 substances suspended in liquid products. 

5 Gellan has unique characteristics, and its

6 effectiveness at very low concentrations is

7 not matched by other gums or substances. We

8 have tried other gums, including guar, acacia,

9 and carrageenan, and no other gum is

10 comparable to gellan. Even when trying these

11 gums in combination at different

12 concentrations, the resulting products had a

13 chalky-mouth feel and the solids settled and

14 hardened on the bottom of the container.

15 This is one of our containers, and

16 we make the product. You know, we wish it

17 would sell immediately, but it sits on the

18 shelf. And sometimes if we don't have the

19 right gel system, it will turn into a brick on

20 the bottom.

21 Lastly, gellan gum is completely

22 safe. It is approved for use in food by
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1 regulatory agencies all over the world. We

2 urge the Board to renew gellan on the National

3 List.

4 I would like to thank the Board

5 for their service, and a special thanks to

6 Miles and his staff for their excellent work. 

7 We appreciate it. Thank you.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Questions?

9 Harold?

10 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you.

11 Boy, I could throw you about 20

12 different questions.

13 (Laughter.)

14 But let's go to a new material,

15 activated charcoal. That is a 2016 sunset

16 material for handling. One of the concerns

17 coming in on the public comment has been,

18 after the activated charcoal has been used in

19 the process, that there may be some concerns

20 about environmental impact with the spent

21 material. Could you explain to us the process

22 that the spent material would go through as
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1 far as reactivation or disposal for your

2 company or with your certifier's approval for

3 your annual review?

4 MR. HERMAN: I don't think I

5 really have the information to be able to

6 answer that. All I can say is I know that the

7 carbon or activated charcoal is used in many

8 filtration systems, and there are EPA

9 regulations governing the disposal of all

10 waste. And the companies have to comply with

11 those regulations. Usually, those filtration

12 systems are serviced by the provider and they

13 are responsible for complying with the proper

14 disposal of them.

15 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. Tomorrow

16 will be the first presentation for the 2016

17 sunset materials for handling. Activated

18 charcoal is on that list. That would be a

19 point of concern that this Subcommittee would

20 like individuals, companies like yourselves

21 that use the material, or the certifiers in

22 the room to be able to provide us with further
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1 information on what happens with the spent

2 material as far as either recycling or

3 whatever, to ensure that we don't have an

4 environmental concern to deal with.

5 Thank you.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea?

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

8 When you go through your annual

9 certification review, does your inspector ask

10 you for a proof that the gellan gum is not

11 GMO?

12 MR. HERMAN: Well, if you are

13 talking about a particular inspector, they

14 randomly check ingredient documentation. But

15 I think a better question is, you know, it is

16 reviewed by the certifier. If we have a

17 product, an organic product using gellan gum,

18 they look at that, those documents, and

19 everything has to be in order. It has to

20 comply with all the excluded methods and

21 everything else.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other
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1 questions?

2 (No response.)

3 Thank you very much, sir.

4 MR. HERMAN: Uh-hum.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

6 speaker is Wanda Jurlina, followed by Jane

7 Finnigan.

8 MS. JURLINA: Thank you, everyone,

9 for the opportunity to talk to you today. I

10 am going to be talking about gellan gum and

11 what it brings to the organic producers.

12 I am the Technical Service Manager

13 at CP Kelco, and I have spent most of my 25-

14 year career working with food producers on

15 developing products that have the texture and

16 the delivery of the nutrients that they want

17 for consumers.

18 I have worked with all of the

19 ingredients that are on the current list, 605

20 and 606, in different applications, and I am

21 well aware of what they can do for food

22 processors.
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1 Each one of these hydrocolloids or 

2 gums, which are soluble fibers if you look at

3 them nutritionally, have their own unique

4 claim to fame.

5 For something like pectin, it

6 works exceptionally well in low pH systems and

7 has the ability to stabilize proteins in

8 environments where they are not stable.

9 Something like guar provides a

10 processor with viscosity at an inexpensive

11 cost.

12 Something like carrageenan has

13 historically been used in chocolate milk to

14 suspend cocoa.

15 What I am going to talk to you

16 today about is an ingredient, gellan gum, that

17 has its own unique claim to fame. And I have

18 a series of slides here that I am not going to

19 dwell on, but I am going to get to some

20 pictures and, then, a little bit of a

21 comparison.

22 There are many nutrients that we
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1 love to deliver to organic consumers, and

2 those include things like insoluble fiber and

3 insoluble calcium. Those things, if not

4 uniformly dispersed through the product, will

5 settle to the bottom of the bottle, the

6 container, the carton, and they may not be

7 consumed by those people who think that they

8 are consuming those nutrients.

9 This is an example of what happens

10 when you stabilize a pineapple or a juice

11 beverage containing pulp and insoluble fiber

12 with pectin and with gellan gum. It is hard

13 to see because we have got some light shining

14 on the slides, but you can see there is a line

15 across the pectin system about, oh, probably

16 a quarter of the way up. And that is the pulp

17 and the fiber settled out in the product. Is

18 it a big deal in a fruit beverage? Probably

19 not. You can uniformly distribute that.

20 But when you start getting to

21 things like calcium in the form of calcium

22 carbonate, tricalcium phosphate, that is used
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1 in many of these alternative milks to deliver

2 the calcium level that you have in regular

3 fluid milk, for those consumers, if that

4 calcium packs in the bottom of that carton, it

5 will remain in the bottom of that carton. 

6 They will not be able to consume that calcium

7 because it hard-packs and does not

8 redistribute.

9 We put together some information

10 for the record showing the differences between

11 gellan gum and the other hydrocolloids that

12 are on the list. And really, what it comes

13 down to, there is nothing that suspends like

14 gellan gum. It helps processors deliver the

15 nutrients that their consumers expect.

16 Thank you.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

18 Questions?

19 Harold?

20 MEMBER AUSTIN: You have dealt

21 with a lot of the materials on the list, as

22 you said.
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1 MS. JURLINA: Uh-hum.

2 MEMBER AUSTIN: In your opinion

3 and over the years your experience, how solid

4 of a replacement for carrageenan would gellan

5 gum be?

6 MS. JURLINA: Gellan gum is an

7 excellent replacement for carrageenan when we

8 are looking at the suspension properties of

9 carrageenan.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other

11 questions?

12 (No response.)

13 Thank you very much.

14 MS. JURLINA: Thank you.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

16 speaker is Jane Finnigan, and on deck is

17 Baerta Klamczynska.

18 MS. FINNIGAN: Hello. My name is

19 Jane Finnigan. I am here as a consumer. I am

20 a member of the Cornucopia Institute, and I am

21 here today as a citizen lobbyist. I

22 volunteered to help present testimony because
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1 I want to ensure the integrity of organic

2 food.

3 I also want to mention that I am a

4 grandmother of five, and two of my

5 grandchildren have food allergies.

6 Egg white lysozyme is a purified

7 enzyme isolated from egg white, approved for

8 use in organic production in 2006. The enzyme

9 is sometimes used as a preservative and in

10 certain cheeses and wines as an antimicrobial.

11 The enzyme is extracted from fresh

12 egg whites using a polymer resin that binds

13 the lysozyme. And then, the resin is removed

14 from the lysozyme using salts, then

15 concentrated, purified, and dried.

16 It is classified as non-synthetic,

17 according to the Technical Review in 2011, but

18 that determination seems questionable to our

19 scientific staff, based on the use of solvents

20 in its production.

21 A few of the major concerns with

22 the material are:
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1 This material was approved without

2 even having a Technical Review. The original

3 review in 2000 on enzymes did not mention egg

4 white lysozyme, nor did the one in 2003. It

5 wasn't until 2011 that egg white lysozyme was

6 covered under an enzyme Technical Review. How

7 was this material approved in the first place

8 without solid Technical Review?

9 The eggs used to produce this

10 enzyme come from conventionally-produced,

11 caged layer hens. This product supports that

12 industry. The issue of conventional egg

13 production with its resulting animal welfare

14 issues and environmental impacts was not even

15 mentioned in the 2011 Technical Review.

16 Allergens. Egg whites are known

17 to be allergic to egg-sensitive individuals. 

18 Because of this, the European Commission

19 requires that the word "egg white lysozyme" be

20 used as an ingredient when used in foods like

21 cheese and wine.

22 The United States Food and Drug
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1 Administration does not require this material

2 to be listed on the label. Therefore,

3 consumers who have egg allergies will not be

4 informed if a product is safe for them or not.

5 Essentially, our survey did not

6 find a single certified organic cheese-maker

7 using this product, and only 5 out of 19

8 certified organic winemakers responded saying

9 that they use this product. Alternative

10 methods clearly exist.

11 Please see the survey results that

12 we passed out for more detail on the responses

13 we obtained. A couple of things that stood

14 out were the idea that you could control for

15 late blowing in cheese by using different

16 cultures, such as holdback, and by not using

17 milk from cows that were fed on fermented

18 feeds.

19 Many winemakers who don't use this

20 enzyme pointed out the need for using high21 quality grapes and practicing impeccable

22 sanitation in the winemaking process to
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1 prevent bacterial spoilage. There are many

2 other alternatives to using this enzyme in

3 organic cheese and wine.

4 In conclusion, our survey data

5 indicates that this material is likely not

6 essential for cheese or winemakers. Until we

7 can obtain more information on the question of

8 synthetic versus of non-synthetic, the

9 environmental impacts of conventional eggs

10 produced --

11 (Signal that time is almost

12 expired.)

13 I am going to thank you. You're

14 going to cut me off now.

15 If you have any questions, I am

16 going to defer to the Cornucopia Institute

17 scientists.

18 Thank you.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

20 much, Jane.

21 The next speaker is Beata

22 Klamczynska, and on deck is Peggy Miars.
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1 MS. KLAMCZYNSKA: Good afternoon,

2 everybody.

3 My name is Beata Klamczynska. I

4 am here today representing Solazyme. And I

5 want to talk on behalf of whole algal flour

6 and why I think it should be included in

7 organic products.

8 What is Algal flour? Algal flour

9 is literally just plain and simple algae that

10 has been very minimally processed, washed and

11 dried, and there is nothing removed or added

12 to it.

13 And it has many components. It

14 has a very healthy lipid component, high in

15 mono unsaturated fatty acids. It also has

16 natural emulsifiers present. It has a high

17 level of fibers, both solubles and insolubles

18 coming from the algae cell walls. It also has

19 other carbohydrates, simple sugars, and

20 micronutrients.

21 You can see the picture. The

22 yellow color in this powder comes from
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1 naturally-occurring gluten. So, it has a lot

2 of natural, very beneficial ingredients

3 present.

4 And I can tell you I have been

5 working in food formulations for over 15 years

6 now, and I have never seen an ingredient that

7 is similar to this algal flour. That is why

8 I don't think we should think of it as a

9 replacement to anything that is already on the

10 market. Think of it as something that is

11 completely new and unique and allows you to

12 formulate products that have some benefits

13 that were not able to be realized before using

14 other ingredients.

15 And I have a few examples for you

16 today, so you can understand it. One of the

17 examples is formulating products that are

18 vegan and have no allergens by replacing eggs

19 or other emulsifiers.

20 In this example, we have

21 formulated a challah bread that is naturally

22 usually really high in eggs. In the process,
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1 we not only took out the allergens and made it

2 vegan, but we also decreased the total fat by

3 over 60 percent, decreased saturated fat by 50

4 percent, and this product has zero

5 cholesterol. So, it is much healthier for

6 you.

7 And you can see in the formulation

8 here, it was done by simply using 4 percent of

9 the algal flour and replacing a much larger

10 quantity of eggs and oil, and just adding some

11 more water.

12 So, you can see it is a very

13 simple formulation. There is really nothing

14 strange about it, and you can use it in very

15 different baking goods.

16 Another example I have is an

17 Alfredo sauce, which Alfredo sauce is

18 notoriously high in fat. And people who are

19 trying to cut down on their fat intakes have

20 a hard time finding a very good substitution

21 that still tastes great.

22 In this example, we were able to
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1 cut down fat by 40 percent, saturated fat by

2 30 percent, and calories by almost 30 percent,

3 also reduced cholesterol.

4 And when we did consumer

5 acceptability studies, they couldn't even tell

6 the difference between those two formulations,

7 which tells you how great of a mouth feel and

8 overall properties this algal flour provides.

9 And if you look at the

10 formulations, it is also very simple. We took

11 some butter out, some eggs out, and added only

12 3 percent of the algal flour in this

13 formulation.

14 And another example, since we have

15 some time, cookies, shortbread cookies that re

16 usually very high in butter. We were able to

17 cut down the fat by 20 percent, cholesterol

18 and saturated fat by 33 percent, and calories

19 by 10 percent. And we did it by reducing the

20 butter and using a 3-percent algal flour in

21 the formulation, and not really changing

22 anything else other than rebalancing the flour
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1 and water.

2 And I hope this helps you to

3 understand that this is brand-new ingredient,

4 and it can help organic consumers to have

5 healthier products.

6 Any questions?

7 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Thank you.

8 Are there any questions for this

9 commenter?

10 Harold?

11 MEMBER AUSTIN: During the public

12 comment period, and then, during the Handling

13 Subcommittee's review of the petition and the

14 petition addendum, one of the concerns that

15 has come up, especially during the public

16 comment period, is the actual source of the

17 algae. There are some concerns that have been

18 raised during the commentary period about the

19 possibility of excluded methods being used to

20 formulate the algae itself, the base starting

21 substrate of it.

22 Could you explain to us that part
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1 of the process or give us why that should or

2 should not be a concern?

3 MS. KLAMCZYNSKA: So, the algae

4 that we use for this ingredient is absolutely

5 100-percent natural. There is no modification

6 to the algae itself. And actually, our next

7 speaker is our regulatory person that can

8 maybe give you a little bit more detail on

9 that. But, as far as I know, it is a

10 naturally-occurring strain of algae that has

11 not been modified in any way.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other

13 questions?

14 (No response.)

15 Great. Thank you very much.

16 MS. KLAMCZYNSKA: Thank you.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

18 speaker is Peggy Miars, and after that will be

19 Nate Lewis.

20 MS. MIARS: Good afternoon.

21 I'm Peggy Miars, Executive

22 Director of OMRI, the Organic Materials Review
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1 Institute.

2 I am not addressing agenda items

3 today. Instead, I bring you greetings from

4 Istanbul, where the Triennial World Congress

5 and General Assembly of the International

6 Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements,

7 or IFOAM, were held two weeks ago.

8 One interesting note is that IFOAM

9 will be looking at the issues of cell fusion

10 and soil conservation in the next few years,

11 as all of you will. In fact, 2015 is the

12 United Nations International Year of Soils. 

13 So, I expect a lot of attention to be paid to

14 soil conservation and soil health next year

15 and for years to come.

16 At the IFOAM meetings, I found it

17 fascinating to interact with organic

18 producers, certifiers, and stakeholders from

19 around the globe and to hear the similarities

20 and differences in organic standards.

21 I came away with two themes from

22 the meetings and from the hallway discussions. 
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1 One is that certification is overwhelming to

2 both certifiers and operators and focuses more

3 on proving compliance and strict recordkeeping

4 rather than looking at operations from a

5 holistic approach. Some international

6 participants questioned whether certification

7 is actually needed.

8 And No. 2, material review is

9 confusing and is handled quite differently in

10 other countries than here in the United

11 States. We agonize over inerts and ancillary

12 substances while the rest of the world

13 overlooks them and it is accepted by

14 consumers.

15 Now I am not saying that we should

16 do what the rest of the world does. OMRI is

17 a neutral organization. So, I am not

18 advocating for any specific solutions. 

19 Rather, I bring these issues to your

20 attention, so that we are aware of what is

21 happening internationally and don't operate in

22 a vacuum.
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1 Another takeaway from the IFOAM

2 meetings was how much the U.S. organic

3 industry is watched the revered. People

4 around the world know about the NOP and the

5 NOSB and respect the work of both.

6 And I think that we in the United

7 States are fortunate because some governments

8 have one person in charge with no organic

9 experience who makes unilateral decisions

10 about organic standards without soliciting any

11 input from stakeholders. And once a decision

12 is made, there is no discussion about it.

13 Others, such as Canada, have

14 minimal governmental involvement and expect

15 the industry to monitor, maintain, and

16 interpret the standards. And that may sound

17 good, but it is a heavy burden on the organic

18 community, and decisions are made and

19 implemented slowly.

20 Imagine if the USDA only paid half

21 the cost of these meetings and all of us had

22 to donate the rest of the money, so that any
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1 work could be done. And on top of that, we

2 would all be volunteering our time to maintain

3 and update the standards.

4 In summary, the United States is

5 recognized as a global leader in organic. We

6 have a participatory process, probably more so

7 than any other industry in this country.

8 And I appreciate the hard work and

9 long hours put in by the NOP staff, NOSB

10 members, as well as the rest of us who work

11 tirelessly on behalf of organics. You're

12 doing an admirable job, given time, money, and

13 personnel restraints. And I thank you for

14 your work on important issues.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

16 Peggy.

17 Questions? Comments?

18 (No response.)

19 Thank you very much.

20 MS. MIARS: Thank you.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nate, you're

22 up, and on deck is Nicholas Gardner.
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1 MR. LEWIS: All right. Madam

2 Chair, thanks for the opportunity to provide

3 comment today. And hopefully, we all can make

4 it through. I know it is getting late.

5 I want to cover a number of

6 topics, and I appreciate any questions that

7 come my way.

8 As far as assessing the soil

9 conservation practices, we applaud NOSB for

10 bringing this issue to forefront and

11 highlighting the environmental benefits of

12 organic production. Organic is so much more

13 than materials used, and practice standards

14 are where the organic farming systems shine.

15 It is critical, however, that

16 producers and certifiers have tools to make

17 these assessments that are as dynamic as the

18 systems themselves. It appears NOSB

19 appreciates this fact and will keep it in mind

20 as it reviews how organic regulations and NRCS

21 conservation practices can work

22 synergistically.
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1 I will suggest that NOSB consider

2 the work of Northeastern University's Humic

3 Acid Research Group and their National Soil

4 Project. OTA and the Organic Center have

5 partnered with this group, and it provides

6 free testing of soils for stable organic

7 matter, humic acids, fulvic acids, and human. 

8 And this might be appropriate for establishing

9 baselines and evaluating long-term soil

10 health.

11 On the issue of contamination of

12 farm inputs, farmers need to know what

13 contamination vectors there are and how to

14 mitigate those risks. It is good work by the

15 NOSB to start this conversation and lay the

16 groundwork for guidance on best practices to

17 avoid contamination.

18 I have a couple of suggestions for

19 additions to this conversation.

20 First, as part of your work on

21 seed purity, please consider including a

22 section on avoiding genome contamination in
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1 seeds used on organic farms. Seeds are inputs

2 as well.

3 Second, the document really needs

4 to include discussion on the current oversight

5 of inputs from state and federal government

6 agencies. This will paint an accurate picture

7 of the regulatory framework within which

8 organic producers exist, and I provide some

9 specifics in our written comments on this. 

10 And you all have a copy of our booklet. So,

11 you can refresh yourselves on OTA's comments

12 on all the topics.

13 I also want to offer my expertise

14 and direct experience in materials review,

15 pesticide residue sampling, compost,

16 investigation of contamination events on

17 organic farms, interactions between certifiers

18 and government regulators, and laboratory

19 testing procedures to assist the Crops

20 Subcommittee in further development of the

21 best practices to avoid contamination from

22 farm inputs.
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1 On hydrogen chloride, I had the

2 opportunity to tour Dr. Holt's research

3 facility in Lubbock, Texas last month. Take

4 a look on page 26. The prototype is not ready

5 for commercial production. It is a tabletop

6 model right now. They are optimistic that

7 something can be made by next fall, but that

8 is past the sunset review date for the Board. 

9 So, just please keep that in consideration.

10 On sulfurous acid, we have some

11 late-breaking news, I guess. We had a whole

12 flurry of responses to our survey. We had 12

13 responses, representing over 4,000 acres from

14 the U.S., Mexico, and Saudi Arabia. And these

15 are crops like coffee, avocados, vegetables,

16 berries, citrus, date palms, stone fruit. And

17 I would be happy to provide a written summary

18 of this for everyone to consider.

19 I also just want to remind you

20 that forcing procedural delays in the sunset

21 review of any substance based solely on an

22 opinion about the Subcommittee process hurts
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1 organic farmers and producers. We all need to

2 watch each card we play and play it slow, but

3 please don't let that deal go down.

4 Thanks.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

6 Nate.

7 Questions? Comments?

8 Yes, Zea?

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thanks, Nate.

10 I couldn't help but notice in your

11 comments that you didn't provide any on our

12 2016 sunsets. And this is the time when we

13 are trying to gather information of how

14 widespread these things are used in the

15 industry.

16 And did your surveys not tackle

17 that, that you couldn't provide results, or

18 what was up with that?

19 MR. LEWIS: So, we didn't comment

20 on the 2016 simply because we did not get

21 responses to the surveys. And I guess I will

22 use it as an opportunity to explain our
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1 survey, the concept, that were are trying to

2 assess essentiality based on the businesses

3 and producers who are using these materials

4 currently.

5 And so, that is entirely how our

6 surveys are geared. We send those out to our

7 membership, through our certifier members, and

8 they are available for all certified

9 operations to participate in. And they have

10 specific questions related to the material

11 that is up for review.

12 And they also refer to the

13 products based on their brand names or the

14 ways that farmers typically talk about them. 

15 So, sulfuric acid survey referenced it as a

16 sulfur burner, which is how the rest of the

17 world talks about that particular material.

18 So, the lack of comments on those

19 2016 sunset materials was just due to a lack

20 of response to our surveys, and we are hoping

21 that, as we sort of energize the industry and

22 sector to engage more, they will see this
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1 opportunity as a much more meaningful way to

2 communicate with the Board.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold?

4 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes, Nate, just to

5 follow up a little bit more on the producer

6 surveys that you guys are working with and

7 stuff, could you elaborate a little bit more

8 on those surveys? What kind of farmer

9 response, producer response are you getting,

10 and are you able to get them engaged? And if

11 not, how are you going to go about that part

12 of it?

13 MR. LEWIS: Since this is the

14 first time, this is the first round of sunset

15 reviews under the new Sunset Review Policy,

16 and having those two opportunities for

17 comment, I don't think the sector at this

18 point is really used to that. And so,

19 responding to a survey about something that is

20 going to be discussed next year may not -- you

21 know, right now, it doesn't seem particularly

22 relevant.
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1 I think as we move forward and

2 people see their comments incorporated in the

3 recommendations, like we saw in sulfurous acid

4 from last meeting's comments, I think we will

5 see that becoming a bigger part of the way

6 that people engage with the comment process. 

7 So, I am optimistic on this.

8 MEMBER AUSTIN: A followup on

9 that: as we move into the revision of the

10 sunset process, and we are now into the two11 step process, what can we do different as a

12 Board or as Subcommittees when we are working

13 on these materials and we are prepping them

14 going forward? Is there anything that you see

15 or OTA sees that we could do different to help

16 generate better responses from all of the

17 organic sector?

18 MR. LEWIS: Well, I think keeping

19 it in plain speak. You know, the group that

20 I am generally interacting with are farmers. 

21 And aqueous potassium silicate does not really

22 mean much to them. Sil-MATRIX might.
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1 So, whatever the Board can do to

2 make the language common, so that we know we

3 are going to get someone to respond because

4 they are aware of the way that particular

5 substance is referred to, I think it is going

6 to bolster the process entirely.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jay?

8 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thanks for your

9 comments.

10 Do you think having more technical

11 information at this meeting, say the first

12 meeting before a review or before the second

13 decision meeting, would help generate more

14 comment, more involvement?

15 MR. LEWIS: Do you mean like if

16 you, as the Board, provided more technical

17 information the first time around, would

18 that --

19 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes, would that

20 help to generate more engagement in the

21 comment process?

22 MR. LEWIS: Well, I think more
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1 information upfront generally does help that

2 conversation.

3 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

5 questions? Comments?

6 (No response.)

7 Thanks very much, Nate.

8 MR. LEWIS: Thanks.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next person

10 up is Nicholas Gardner, and Kate Davis on

11 deck.

12 MR. GARDNER: Good afternoon.

13 My name is Nicholas Gardner, and I

14 am commenting on behalf of the International

15 Food Additives Council, or IFAC.

16 IFAC is a global association

17 representing companies that produce high18 quality substances used worldwide as food

19 additives and food ingredients.

20 I appreciate the opportunity to

21 offer the following comments on gellan gum and

22 sodium acid pyrophosphate, or SAP.
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1 First off, IFAC strongly supports

2 the continued listing of gellan gum on the

3 National List at Section 205.605(a). As you

4 have heard today already, gellan gum is an

5 approved food additive in the U.S. and has

6 been approved by numerous other regulatory

7 agencies around the world.

8 It is IFAC's understanding that

9 there are currently no other certified organic

10 gums that have the same properties as gellan

11 gum in the organic applications where it is

12 currently used.

13 Gellan gum provides the organic

14 industry with unique functionality unavailable

15 with other stabilizers and thickeners and

16 provides organic consumers with a variety of

17 innovative and healthy products.

18 Gellan gum is a versatile

19 ingredient used in applications such as dairy

20 and non-dairy milks, nutritional products,

21 juices, yogurts, and sour creams, bakery

22 products and fillings, fruit sauces and
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1 spreads, dairy desserts and flans, and

2 dressings and sauces.

3 Gellan gum is particularly

4 suitable for suspending protein, minerals,

5 vitamin, fiber, and pulp in fortified

6 beverages. Calcium-fortified beverages, such

7 as soy, rice, and almond milks, are of great

8 interest to organic consumers who may not be

9 able to or choose not to consume dairy milks.

10 Gellan offers gel texture and

11 mouth feel to replace animal-based gelatin,

12 which provides more options for vegetarians

13 and people who keep kosher or hallal diets.

14 For these reasons, IFAC strongly

15 supports the continued listing of gellan gum

16 at 205.605(a). Delisting gellan gum would

17 impact numerous existing organic offerings and

18 limit potential for development of new

19 products to meet growing organic demand and

20 innovative organic options.

21 IFAC also supports the continued

22 listing of sodium acid pyrophosphate on the
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1 National List at Section 205.605(b). 

2 Relisting SAP, a substance considered

3 generally recognized as safe in the U.S., is

4 critical because it is the only listed

5 leavening agent that provides the controlled

6 leavening needed during manufacturing a range

7 of bakery products.

8 The biggest challenge in

9 formulating baked goods is controlling the

10 release of carbon dioxide at a rate that

11 allows the right amount of leavening to occur

12 at the proper time. Many other leavening

13 agents release CO2 too early. If too much CO2

14 is produced too early, baked goods do not rise

15 sufficiently and will have an undesirably low

16 volume. Releasing CO2 too late is also

17 problematic and can lead to product quality

18 issues, such as surface cracking.

19 SAP is also important when

20 producing frozen or refrigerated doughs

21 because some grades of SAP release CO2 very

22 slowly, which is required to optimize
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1 leavening in these doughs.

2 SAP is the only organic leavening

3 agent that provides the exacting leavening

4 control needed to produce a range of bakery

5 products. It would be very difficult or

6 likely impossible to produce the following

7 products for the organic market without SAP: 

8 waffles, pound cakes and similar cake mixes,

9 pancakes and pancake mixes, biscuit and

10 biscuit mixes, cookie and cookie mixes, and

11 other refrigerated or frozen doughs.

12 I would also like to respond to

13 some of the environmental concerns that have

14 been raised with the production of SAP and

15 other phosphates.

16 (Signal that time is almost

17 expired.)

18 Well, I will not have a chance to

19 get to those, but thank you for the time.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

21 Nicholas.

22 Questions?
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1 Harold?

2 MEMBER AUSTIN: Could you go ahead

3 and get to those, please?

4 MR. GARDNER: Sure. The main

5 thing I wanted to say is that the majority of

6 SAP and its constituents that are used in

7 foods, particularly the organic products that

8 we are here talking about today, are produced

9 in countries like the U.S. in compliance with

10 strict environmental regulations that do

11 require containment and/or treatment of any

12 possible contaminants or byproducts resulting

13 from production of phosphate ore or refinement

14 of the ore to produce raw materials used in

15 food manufacturing.

16 One thing I want the Board to

17 consider is that we did survey our membership,

18 which includes a number of phosphate

19 manufacturers, and all of the constituents for

20 SAP or the SAP that is produced by our members

21 is sourced from phosphate rock that is mined

22 here in the U.S.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

2 Questions?

3 Zea?

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

5 You didn't address it in your oral

6 comment just now, but your written comment you

7 were one of the few people who spoke up in

8 favor of tetrasodium pyrophosphate. And I am

9 wondering because our Technical Review we had

10 on the substance listed many, many

11 alternatives in a wide variety of food

12 categories.

13 And your written comment didn't

14 give specifics about which exact foods would

15 be affected by lack of this. And I would like

16 to know a list like you just gave for the SAP

17 of which exact foods. Is it like veggie

18 hotdogs or, you know, veggie burgers or --

19 MR. GARDNER: Yes, it is difficult

20 from an association perspective to necessarily

21 speak to individual products, but it is in

22 those meat analogs.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: And I don't

2 mean brand names, of course, but --

3 MR. GARDNER: Yes, yes. Sure.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: -- just the

5 types of product.

6 MR. GARDNER: Yes, my

7 understanding is a number of the extruded

8 shaped products such as like veggie bacon

9 alternatives, hotdogs, some of those that need

10 to retain shape after going through an

11 extrusion process.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other

13 questions?

14 (No response.)

15 All right. Thank you very much. 

16 That was very helpful.

17 MR. GARDNER: Thank you.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next person

19 up is, let's see, Kate Davis, with Beth Unger

20 on standby.

21 MS. DAVIS: Good afternoon, Madam

22 Director, Members of the Board.
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1 My name is Kate Davis. And as the

2 Director of America's Marketing for CP Kelco,

3 it is both my pleasure and privilege to be

4 able to address you today.

5 I want to reiterate the

6 essentiality of gellan gum versus its

7 alternatives, especially to its suspension

8 properties in organic consumer goods.

9 Gellan is not limited by

10 processing. It fits right into existing

11 processes, whether they are hot or cold. So,

12 it is very easy for the organic processors to

13 use.

14 And referring back to the photos

15 that Wanda showed, you will remember that

16 there was an almond milk that had locust bean

17 gum at .15 percent. It was suspending almond

18 solids and calcium carbonate. We got a great

19 suspension with our KelcoGel gellan gum at

20 one-fifth that amount. So, it is used at

21 lower levels than many other standard feeds.

22 Gellan can be used to deliver
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1 calcium fortification to a growing range of

2 consumers who can't have the milk proteins or

3 who are lactose-intolerant. And gellan is

4 especially effective at keeping calcium and

5 other insoluble but necessary minerals in

6 suspension. It is both dairy- and gluten7 free.

8 It can also make fruit and

9 vegetable snacks with nutraceutical additions,

10 such as lutein, or even a Jello-style snack

11 that incorporates minerals, proteins, and

12 fruit pieces.

13 It can be used to make capsules

14 that work for vegetarians or for those who eat

15 kosher.

16 So, for the organic community at

17 large, producers and consumers both need for

18 the NOSB to preserve the listing of high-acyl

19 gellan gum, 205.605.

20 Thank you.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

22 Questions?
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1 (No response.)

2 Very good. Thank you very much.

3 MS. DAVIS: Thank you.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

5 speaker is Beth Unger, and waiting in the

6 wings we will have Teresa Chan.

7 MS. UNGER: Good afternoon.

8 Thank you very much for the

9 opportunity to approach you about my favorite

10 topic, gellan gum.

11 (Laughter.)

12 I am Beth Unger from the

13 Certification Department at Organic Valley. 

14 We are the largest organic farmer-owned

15 cooperative in the nation, with over 1800

16 farmers. And as Star mentioned previously,

17 1450 of them are dairy farmers.

18 By the way, thank you very much,

19 Madam Chair, for your introduction today. 

20 That was heartwarming.

21 So, I want to be perfectly clear

22 about gellan gum, and also to give you a
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1 little bit more information than what we

2 provided in our written comment because this

3 is a pretty critical thing.

4 Over five years ago, we had

5 started the process of replacing carrageenan

6 with gellan gum in our soy products. And

7 then, after the NOSB meeting where

8 carrageenan, you know, was brought up as a

9 potential health issue, we really accelerated

10 that. So, we have put endless dollars of

11 product development time into making a

12 replacement.

13 There were many other things that

14 were tried as we were going through this

15 process, as was detailed in our written

16 comment. So, you can refer to that.

17 But what I wanted to do is give

18 you some very compelling information about

19 what the impact of removing this material from

20 the list after all of this time and money and

21 research was spent to go ahead and replace

22 carrageenan with gellan gum.
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1 First of all, the sales impact on

2 an annual basis at our 2015 projections is $66

3 million worth of product that would contain

4 gellan gum. That represents 43 million pounds

5 of milk. For our average-sized farm, that

6 would be the annual production of somewhere

7 between 40 and 50 of our farms. So, this is

8 not a small impact that you are dealing with

9 here.

10 I heard CP Kelco clarify that it

11 is not a GMO issue, as was brought up in many

12 of the public comments.

13 And I wanted to introduce you to a

14 new product line that we have. These are milk

15 protein shakes. This is something that needed

16 to happen out there for our organic consumers. 

17 This is a wonderful short ingredient list

18 alternative to like MuscleMilk, which has 40-

19 some ingredients and no milk.

20 (Laughter.)

21 So, you know, this is a very

22 popular product line. It has got gellan gum,
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1 all four SKUs. So, I want you to think about

2 this very carefully.

3 I also want to thank the Board

4 members and the NOP staff for your dedication

5 and the hard work you are putting in. And the

6 four exiting members, thank you for five years

7 of a lot of work.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

9 Beth.

10 Questions?

11 Harold?

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thanks, Beth.

13 Now you brought samples of that

14 for all the Board, right?

15 (Laughter.)

16 MS. UNGER: Yes, I didn't bring a

17 big enough suitcase.

18 (Laughter.)

19 MEMBER AUSTIN: Well, we will

20 share.

21 In your product line and stuff,

22 with the switchover from carrageenan utilizing
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1 gellan gum, have you been able to successfully

2 make that transition with everything that you

3 previously had used carrageenan? Have you

4 been able to make that switchout?

5 MS. UNGER: Yes, we have. The

6 last remaining product that we intend to have

7 switched out in early 2015 is th

8 ultrapasteurized heavy cream. That one has

9 been a little bit of a bugger for the

10 switchout, but we are about there.

11 MEMBER AUSTIN: So, with the rest

12 of the products that you have already made

13 that transition with the lack of the one, how

14 has that worked? I mean, has that been a

15 successful move for you?

16 MS. UNGER: It has. You know,

17 when you look at something like a milk protein

18 shake, I think that the expectation would be

19 probably a little thicker consistency, and the

20 difference between using carrageenan or gellan

21 gum, this would be a thinner consistency. I

22 think it is fine personally.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thanks

2 very much, Beth.

3 The next speaker is Teresa Chan,

4 with Rick Green in the wings.

5 MS. CHAN: Hi. My name is Teresa

6 Chan. I am the Senior Manager, Regulatory

7 Affairs, at Solazyme, and we are the

8 petitioner for whole algal flour.

9 I want to thank the NOSB and the

10 NOP for the hard work that you do, and I ask

11 you today to reconsider listing whole algal

12 flour on the National List.

13 I want to take this opportunity to

14 address some misconceptions and questions that

15 arose from some of the public comments posted

16 and address the concerns of the Subcommittee.

17 First, despite what you may read

18 in the media, Solazyme is not a synthetic

19 biology company. We are a biotechnology

20 company using traditional genetic engineering

21 to produce sustainable, high-performance oils

22 derived from microalgae.
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1 However, our portfolio of whole

2 algal ingredients, which includes whole algal

3 flour, used native algae strains that have not

4 been modified. So, to answer Harold's

5 question earlier, the algae used in whole

6 algal flour is not genetically modified.

7 Second, the Handling Subcommittee

8 had concerns on the redaction of confidential

9 business information in our petition which

10 were regarding the substances used for

11 fermentation. In our written comments, we

12 have removed the redactions to address the

13 concerns.

14 Like other microorganisms, such as

15 bacteria and yeast, we can grow our microalgae

16 in fermenters instead of open ponds and

17 photobioreactors. Our fermentation nutrients

18 and media are food-grade ingredients that are

19 used throughout the food fermentation

20 industry. So, there is nothing new, novel, or

21 harmful about these substances. It should be

22 noted that these nutrients are also used in
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1 other fermentation-derived ingredients that

2 are already listed on the National List in

3 Section 205.605, such as xanthan gum.

4 Our manufacturing process is

5 essentially growing the algae in fermenters,

6 then pasteurizing, drying, and milling the

7 algae. No solvents are used and nothing is

8 extracted. Whole algal flour is dried, milled

9 algae. It is also grass and has received a no

10 questions letter from the FDA, prerequisites

11 for submitting new petitions to the Board.

12 Lastly, organic consumers deserve

13 to have a choice to purchase organic products

14 that are non-allergenic, vegan, and healthy. 

15 I am a mother of two young children and an

16 organic consumer. Adding whole algal flour to

17 the National List will allow me to buy organic

18 products for my family that are healthier with

19 less fat, calories, and cholesterol without

20 sacrificing on taste and texture.

21 There are no alternative

22 substances on the National List that have the
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1 same functionality and benefit as whole algal

2 flour. None of the starch products, gums, and

3 hydrocolloids can reduce the fat, calories,

4 and cholesterol content of organic foods.

5 I ask the NOSB to strongly

6 reconsider their position and to add whole

7 algal flour to the National List.

8 Thank you.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

10 Teresa.

11 Could we have some questions from

12 the Board?

13 (No response.)

14 No? No questions.

15 MS. CHAN: Thank you.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, thank

17 you.

18 Rick Green is up next, and Alexis

19 Randolph is waiting in the wings.

20 MR. GREEN: Okay. Hello,

21 everyone.

22 So, I am Rick Green from Solazyme. 
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1 And from some of the comments I read, I know

2 you were expecting someone with horns and a

3 tail, reeking of sulfur and brimstone. But

4 Solazyme is just a bunch of people trying to

5 make good products.

6 As Teresa pointed out, this

7 particular product does not have any GMO

8 content. The reason we are here is because we

9 were asked by our customers. We had not

10 started this product intending it to be

11 something organic listed, but there was an

12 overwhelming response from customers at trade

13 shows, at inquiries, saying, "Could you get

14 this organic listed?" So, we are really here

15 for those people who asked us to try to do

16 this for them, because it is something that

17 they see as adding value in their products.

18 From my own experience, I have

19 people in my own family who can't have milk in

20 products. And so, we have to look for

21 alternatives.

22 Now, when we say whole algal flour
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1 is a replacement, it is not really a

2 replacement. You are not going to have a

3 glass of whole algal flour with your cookies. 

4 You are not going to have a whole algal flour

5 omelet. Remember, this is going to be used at

6 less than 5 percent.

7 But I think Beata gave some good

8 examples of how it could be beneficial. And

9 Solazyme is based in south San Francisco. And

10 we have a lot of vegans there, and we also

11 have a lot of vegetarians who say that they

12 eat eggs and dairy, but vegans call them

13 "cheaters".

14 (Laughter.)

15 But the vegans say, "I like an

16 alternative." And so, for those people, the

17 people, whether for cultural or dietary

18 reasons, or because of health reasons in the

19 way of allergens, would like an alternative,

20 we think that organic customers should be able

21 to have that.

22 There was a comment about the
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1 impact on eggs and dairy, saying, "Well,

2 you're going to displace eggs and milk." We

3 are not really going to do that. The people

4 that are looking for an alternative don't want

5 those things anyway. They don't want to

6 consume those things. Maybe they can't or it

7 is just a preference.

8 So, at less than 5 percent, we are

9 not going to have a huge impact on dairy

10 farmers or egg producers, but it will have a

11 big impact on the people who would like to

12 have that choice.

13 So, I would like to thank the

14 Board for this time, and I will entertain any

15 questions.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Questions?

17 Harold?

18 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you for your

19 presentation.

20 I think one of the things for us

21 on this subcommittee as well as on the Board,

22 you kind of touched on it a little bit, is we
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1 are looking at a material that won't totally

2 replace materials or substances that are

3 organic in nature right now that are currently

4 being used, but it will be a partial

5 substitute.

6 Something that we are having to

7 play with in our minds, removing something

8 that is already satisfying a specific need

9 that is already organic or organic certified

10 with this potential synthetic material or a

11 substitute material, we have seen your

12 testimonies. We have seen your written public

13 comments. We have seen those from two other

14 companies that are in support of your material

15 getting registered, but we haven't seen any

16 support documentation or letters from anybody

17 else that is saying that there is a specific

18 need, that we want this.

19 And I think that is probably one

20 of the points that I am having the most

21 difficulty with trying to grasp, is what

22 really is that need, without us seeing
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1 consumers or other individuals coming here to

2 say, "Hey, we want this." We hear you telling

3 us that, and I am not saying that you haven't

4 heard that. We just haven't seen the show of

5 support. And I guess that is kind of my

6 biggest concern at this juncture, is what

7 really is that need; what really is that

8 support out there.

9 MR. GREEN: Right. Well, I can

10 tell you that the companies that would like to

11 offer these products, they must have customers

12 who have expressed the need for it. 

13 Otherwise, they wouldn't be interested.

14 This is, you know, a relatively15 new ingredient. So, people are still learning

16 about it. There are lots of people who are

17 looking at it for the not in organic products. 

18 So, it is being used for the other benefits

19 that it has outside of organic.

20 So, the real question before the

21 Board is, is this something that it would

22 serve the organic community? Can those
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1 organic customers benefit from this? And

2 should they be given that choice? Because no

3 one has to use this material. You know, it is

4 optional. Anything on the list is optional to

5 use.

6 But I believe, because I have

7 people that have food allergies and all the

8 vegans back at work think that you should have

9 an alternative, and if you don't want or need

10 that alternative, you don't have to use it. 

11 So, those products will benefit a certain

12 portion of the organic community. And the

13 question is, does the Board think it is

14 important enough to serve those people?

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold?

16 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you for

17 that.

18 To just clarify, I guess one of

19 the criteria that we will look at, any

20 material that would be added to the National

21 List would be essentiality would be one of the

22 criteria. If we had heard from those
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1 consumers that are looking for a vegan or a

2 vegetarian or a non-allergenic source, it

3 would, I think, serve us better.

4 I think we are all about giving

5 opportunities to expand and grow the organic

6 industry and provide those other alternatives,

7 but I think the essentiality is going to be

8 the key issue that we are going to be grasping

9 and trying to figure out how to deal with.

10 MR. GREEN: Okay. So, then, I

11 would ask, what suggestions do you have? The

12 people who like to formulate it for their

13 customers have expressed their interest. And

14 remember, this is something that is just

15 starting. So, it needs to be given the

16 chance. So, how would you, then, address

17 that?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: One more go,

19 Harold.

20 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay, I'll make it

21 quick.

22 Depending on what the outcome
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1 tomorrow on the vote would be, if we do not

2 pass it, then what I would suggest is that you

3 consider repetitioning if it does not pass a

4 Board vote with support letters coming back in

5 under the open public comment period to show

6 us that there truly is a need from that other

7 sector of the organic community.

8 MR. GREEN: Okay. Any other

9 questions?

10 (No response.)

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

12 much, Rick.

13 MR. GREEN: Okay. Thank you, and

14 thank you for not throwing the hammer.

15 (Laughter.)

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

17 speaker is Alexis Randolph, and coming up

18 after that is Jackie Sleeper.

19 MS. RANDOLPH: Okay. Good

20 afternoon, everyone.

21 My name is Alexis Randolph, and I

22 am the Certification and Technical Manager for
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1 QAI, an organic certification agency in San

2 Diego, California.

3 First, I would like to thank the

4 outgoing Board members for their service to

5 the organic community.

6 I would also like to thank the

7 National Organic Program for continuing to

8 issue guidance documents and instructions that

9 have succeeded in ensuring that all certifiers

10 are applying the standards in the same way.

11 Some of those instructions are

12 based on the work done by the NOSB. And so,

13 I think it is important that the Board hears

14 that this process is working.

15 Now I would like to speak to you

16 about tragacanth gum. We certified one client

17 using this material, and he waited four years

18 to get certified while it was added to the

19 National List. According to him, tragacanth

20 gum, as opposed to the other allowed gums, is

21 what makes his product unique from similar

22 products on the market.
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1 He has provided a letter about the

2 necessity of this ingredient, which I have

3 given to Michelle for distribution to the

4 Board. I have been told this company will go

5 out of business if tragacanth gum is removed

6 from the list. This is an agricultural

7 material on 606 and it is not available in

8 organic form.

9 I am going to quickly name off

10 some other materials and inform you if they

11 are being used by certified operators.

12 Gellan gum, used by several

13 companies in non-dairy beverages and similar

14 meal-replacement-type products.

15 Since the question came up

16 earlier, I will just confirm that certifiers

17 do verify the non-GMO status of materials on

18 the list, including gellan gum. Our

19 evaluation questionnaire specifically looks at

20 microorganisms.

21 Peracetic acid, this is very

22 commonly used in sanitation.
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1 L-mallic acid, yes, it is used in

2 a wide variety of products from juice to

3 organic flavors to humus.

4 Microorganisms, yes, and I look

5 forward to that discussion later this week.

6 Egg white lysozyme, not that I

7 know of, not by QAI-certified operators.

8 Activated charcoal, yes, all the

9 companies using activated charcoal are making

10 a clear liquid product, such as vinegar or

11 sake.

12 Sodium acid pyrophosphate, yes, it

13 is used in products that require a leavening

14 agent.

15 TSPP, no.

16 Marsala, no.

17 Sherry, no. But there is a

18 natural flavor derived from sherry. If that

19 flavor was to become certified organic, they

20 might need sherry to remain on the National

21 List.

22 My colleague Jessica Walden will
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1 give more comments on materials tomorrow.

2 Certifiers have been advised by an

3 NOSB Board member and consumer organization

4 that, if we give comments about materials, we

5 appear no longer impartial and that we are

6 advocating for our clients. This is not true.

7 Certifiers know what materials are

8 being used, and the NOSB does not. So,

9 despite our best efforts, we struggle to get

10 certified operators to make comments on their

11 own behalf. That is why it is very important

12 that you hear from us, and you will continue

13 to hear from me.

14 What I learned from speaking with

15 our clients, such as the one using tragacanth

16 gum, is how important diversity is when it

17 comes to ingredients. If two companies want

18 to make the same type of product, they need to

19 use at least one unique ingredient to set

20 themselves apart.

21 The NOSB reviews the necessity of

22 materials on the list and often makes a motion
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1 to remove a material because another one has

2 a similar function. I would like to suggest

3 that the NOSB also consider that diversity of

4 materials on the National List is essential

5 for smaller start-up companies to create a

6 unique product and gain access to the organic

7 market.

8 Thank you.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

10 Alexis.

11 Jay?

12 MEMBER FELDMAN: Hi. Thank you

13 for your comments.

14 Can you explain to the Board the

15 process you go through to verify non-GMO

16 materials in processed ingredients?

17 MS. RANDOLPH: Sure. We have a

18 questionnaire that we have completed by the

19 manufacturer of that material. We provide

20 that questionnaire to our certified operator

21 who passed it on to the manufacturer, and it

22 asks questions about the non-GMO status of the
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1 material. It also, as I mentioned earlier,

2 looks at microorganisms when necessary.

3 And then, we obtain that

4 documentation. We review that documentation

5 in our office, and the client also retains it

6 onsite. And so, when inspectors go out to do

7 inspections, they will sample through that

8 various documentation and make sure it is

9 still available and current.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea?

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thanks, Alexis,

12 and I am glad you stepped forward to let us

13 know that your client is using tragacanth gum. 

14 It is just unfortunate that he couldn't have

15 written in in time for the public comment

16 period in the docket, and, in particular,

17 mentioned if he had tried the alternatives

18 that were suggested, in particular, gum

19 arabic, which several commenters suggested

20 would work in every situation.

21 MS. RANDOLPH: I don't recall if

22 he included information in his letter about
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1 the other gums that he has tried. He verbally

2 let me know that the other gums did not work

3 and why. I think he mentions that briefly in

4 the letter.

5 You know, I just can't express to

6 you enough how difficult it is to get

7 companies to come and give comment or to write

8 in their public comment. We talk to them

9 about it. We put it out in newsletters. We

10 put it out in emails. We see them at trade

11 shows. We speak to them about it.

12 And the majority of them are,

13 quite frankly, just too busy trying to run

14 their business. The gentleman with the

15 tragacanth gum is currently overseas trying to

16 get an export market.

17 Until I called him up and told him

18 how serious this was, he had absolutely no

19 idea that he could go out of business. And

20 that is what he is telling me will happen.

21 So, I really can't speak entirely

22 on his behalf. All I can do is just let you
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1 know that there are stories behind every

2 material that you vote on. And it is

3 difficult to bring those forward to you. So,

4 as much as you can also do to reach out to the

5 community to learn those stories, I think the

6 community would really appreciate that.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold?

8 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you, Madam

9 Chair.

10 Alexis, thanks for coming and

11 giving the presentation. To step up and speak

12 out on behalf of some of those entities that

13 you guys are certifying or that are not

14 willing to come up here and do it for

15 themselves, all you certifying agencies that

16 come here and provide this type of information

17 to us, it is invaluable. It really helps us

18 provide a working foundation to put some

19 stability and a little bit of balance into the

20 things that we are hearing and we are looking

21 at.

22 And I can't express enough how
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1 gratified I am that you did take the time and

2 step up. And continue to do so.

3 The one thing I would challenge

4 QAI and everybody else that goes out and works

5 with these clients and accounts is there has

6 got to be a mechanism and vehicle that we can

7 utilize to get the message to them. As we

8 move into this next huge round of sunset

9 reviews for the 2016 and the 2017 materials

10 and substances, they have got to get engaged. 

11 We need to hear from them because we need to

12 know if something is important to them.

13 I mean, we are dealing with the

14 issues at hand today, but this is just the

15 stepping stone for the next 18 months. And

16 this is just the start of a lot bigger

17 picture. So, we are going to need a lot of

18 help to try to get the information out to

19 those guys and get them to give us some public

20 comment back.

21 MS. RANDOLPH: Yes, we will keep

22 trying. Thank you.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

2 much.

3 The next speaker is Jackie

4 Sleeper, and the last speaker of the afternoon

5 following that will be Phil LaRocca.

6 MS. SLEEPER: Good afternoon.

7 My name is Jackie Sleeper, and I

8 am the Farms Program Technical Specialist for

9 the Oregon Tilth Certified Organic Program.

10 Thank you, NOSB Members, for your

11 service and opportunity to share our comments.

12 Today I am addressing the

13 assessment of soil conservation practices

14 discussion document from the CAC Subcommittee.

15 Oregon Tilth appreciates the NOP

16 and NOSB bringing attention to the importance

17 of soil health and organic systems. Healthy

18 soils are the foundation of organic

19 agriculture. Organic standards acknowledge

20 this, requiring farmers to maintain or improve

21 the physical, chemical, and biological

22 condition of soil and minimize soil erosion.
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1 At the prior NOSB meeting, Oregon

2 Tilth's Education Director and Organic

3 Specialist for the USDA NRCS, Sarah Brown,

4 described our national partnership with their

5 agency. The partnership recognizes many

6 shared goals between the NRCS and organic

7 standards regarding natural resources

8 conservation.

9 Our work together helps us promote

10 a more conservation-minded approach to soil

11 management, assessment, and recommended

12 practices. And the NRCS uses a variety of

13 soil assessment tools and erosion

14 classifications that certifiers and their

15 inspectors may not be aware of.

16 Evaluating soil health requires a

17 comprehensive and practical approach. The

18 OTCO Program evaluates diverse farm operations

19 across the U.S. and North America. We see

20 firsthand that soil conservation is as diverse

21 and multifaceted as organic farming itself.

22 Successfully managing healthy soil
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1 depends upon a wide variety of farm-specific

2 factors, such as region, field locations,

3 cropping systems, and climate conditions. We

4 believe there isn't a one-size-fits-all

5 approach in determining soil quality and

6 health.

7 Overreliance on quantitative

8 assessment tools, such as RUSLE2, is not a

9 solution. Evaluating soil health must occur

10 over time and should involve a variety of

11 indicators, including visual assessment and

12 simple quantitative tools, such as soil tests

13 measuring organic matter. We emphasize the

14 value of qualitative and visual assessment.

15 Organic certification must remain

16 an accessible and valuable service for all. 

17 OTCO believes organic standards must be easily

18 understood by certified farmers and clearly

19 verifiable by inspectors in the field.

20 While upholding the standards, we

21 must also ensure organic certification is not

22 unnecessarily complex or too costly. The key
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1 will be focusing on farms where soil

2 conservation is most at risk. This focuses

3 compliance/accountability where it is most

4 needed; for example, soil erosion that

5 threatens both soil health and water quality.

6 The discussion document is a good

7 first step in this complex conversation. We

8 can move the conversation forward in the

9 following ways:

10 First, we need a clearer picture

11 of the current situation. How many concerns

12 or non-compliances are identified by

13 certifiers regarding soil management? What is

14 their basis for soil conservation assessment

15 and findings? What issues are being

16 identified by NRCS when working with certified

17 organic farms?

18 USDA should work to increase

19 coordination and consistency across NOP

20 certification and NRCS conservation compliance

21 to identify and resolve concerns. For

22 example, how might preexisting assessments or
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1 classifications, such as highly-erodible

2 lands, support certification?

3 Next, we need to carefully

4 consider what tools or practices certifiers

5 should use to monitor soil health in ways that

6 are sound and sensible. The NOP should engage

7 certifiers, IOAS, organic farmers, and NRCS to

8 inform guidance.

9 Finally, further training and

10 guidance from the NOP should help clarify

11 expectations regarding soil conservation. 

12 Certifiers would benefit from training on how

13 to identify high-risk operations and address

14 non-compliance. This will improve quality and

15 consistency in certification.

16 OTCO supports setting high

17 standards for practices and outcomes, informed

18 by an ethic of continuous improvement. As an

19 organization founded on the importance of good

20 tilth, we can resonate with Wendell Berry's

21 statement, "What I stand for is what I stand

22 on." Simply put, Oregon Tilth believes
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1 building soil health is an investment in our

2 future.

3 Thank you.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

5 Questions?

6 (No response.)

7 Thank you very much.

8 MS. SLEEPER: Thank you.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Phil next.

10 MR. LaROCCA: As the last speaker,

11 I will try to make this as quick and painless

12 as possible.

13 My name is Phil LaRocca. I am the

14 owner and winemaker of LaRocca Vineyard, where

15 we produce a 100-percent USDA-certified

16 organic wine. I am also Chairman of the Board

17 of Directors for CCOF.

18 Last June I had a conference call

19 with Miles, and we discussed several different

20 organic issues, one being GMOs. And I said,

21 "Miles, we need to do something to protect the

22 organic integrity of both the organic farmer
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1 and the organic consumer."

2 And Miles responded to me that he

3 really didn't get a whole lot of complaints

4 and he didn't really see that organic farmers

5 were being damaged by this.

6 So, knowing that Miles and I were

7 going to be guest speakers at an event in

8 Southern California, I took the challenge on. 

9 I have to admit, when I started, it was a

10 little bit difficult because a lot of farmers

11 didn't want to talk to me for fear, if

12 something came up, they would lose their

13 certification. As a farmer myself, I totally

14 could empathize with that. This is your

15 livelihood. Your livelihood was at stake.

16 However, I kept beating the door

17 down. And with the help of CCOF, several

18 anti-GMO groups, the pro-labeling groups, and

19 several Midwest farmers, I compiled about --

20 what do you think, Miles? -- about two inches

21 of paperwork. And I have another inch-and-a22 half that I meant to present to him at this
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1 meeting. However, I left my house at three

2 o'clock in the morning and I forgot, but I am

3 going to mail it to him.

4 So, I want to thank this Board for

5 their efforts in keeping GMOs in the

6 forefront. We cannot give up. Let's face it,

7 the USDA is not friendly to this issue, but it

8 is an important issue to our organic culture,

9 our organic community. Again, not just to the

10 organic farmer, but to the organic consumer.

11 So, please, please keep up the good work and

12 keep up the fight.

13 Also, as the largest producer of

14 organic wine as a food ingredient, you really

15 know what you should take off the list if I

16 say it correctly, marsala and sherries,

17 because they can easily be produced

18 organically.

19 Thank you very much.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

21 Phil.

22 Questions?
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1 (No response.)

2 Thank you, Phil.

3 MR. LaROCCA: Okay. Thank you.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: This is turning

5 into a marathon day, and I thank everyone for

6 sitting there and keeping going.

7 I would like to move straight into

8 the Materials Subcommittee report back to the

9 whole Board. And as we move into that, I

10 would like to ask Dr. Brines if she would

11 cover the conflict-of-interest issue, so that

12 we don't need to look at it again for the rest

13 of the week. If you could address that now?

14 Thank you.

15 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Jean.

16 I don't have any specific text

17 prepared, but this is the point of the meeting

18 where any of the Board members who have a

19 conflict of interest would be able to state

20 that on the record. I suggest, just for

21 efficiency, to address any of the topics that

22 the Board might be voting on at this time.
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1 Thanks.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And the

3 audience out there should, of course, be aware

4 of the fact that, in preparation for this

5 meeting, we had a document circulated to us by

6 the NOP inquiring as to whether or not there

7 were any conflicts of interest of any Board

8 members regards any of the materials that were

9 being considered at this meeting, and there

10 were none that I am aware of.

11 Is that correct, Lisa? Right? No

12 conflicts were identified on paper, correct?

13 DR. BRINES: That is my

14 understanding, correct. Yes.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Although I know

16 that is our procedure for doing things, I do

17 like to publicly make a disclosure to that

18 effect. So, that being said, I do work for a

19 certification organization that may or may not

20 certify products that contain any of the

21 substances that we are discussing here today. 

22 And as a small farm, I may or may not use any
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1 of the substances we are discussing here

2 today. But that is the extent of my interest.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

4 Okay. Before we have Calvin make

5 his first comments, I just want to be sure

6 that we understand, as we begin to go into the

7 parts of the meeting which will deal perhaps

8 with motions, just to bring to your attention

9 that the NOSB is an odd sort of an

10 organization, that in terms of parliamentary

11 procedures and other kinds of procedures, we

12 have an interesting mix.

13 We have the OFPA, which says that

14 all of the votes, all of the motions are

15 supposed to be two-thirds.

16 We have a Policy and Procedure

17 Manual that has been developed over the years

18 with public input which has a combination,

19 incorporated by reference the OFPA voting, but

20 also adds some Robert's Rules of Order

21 language.

22 Then, we have Robert's Rules of
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1 Order, which we kind of follow most of the

2 time.

3 And then, we have policies which

4 are periodically promulgated by the NOP, such

5 as the new sunset procedures or the present

6 ruling that we can't make annotations at

7 sunset, which are like amendments, as you

8 know, and that substantive changes or

9 amendments cannot be voted at the public

10 meeting if they have not been in The Federal

11 Register, and therefore, had the opportunity

12 to be seen by the public.

13 We also use tradition, and there's

14 lots of you here that have been part of that

15 tradition over the years.

16 And then, finally, of course, the

17 last type of ruling which you might have to

18 face is rulings from the Chair. And, of

19 course, the Chair can be appealed.

20 So, as we go into the discussions

21 starting today and going through the next two

22 days, tradition suggests that we should try to
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1 reach consensus, where possible, and that we

2 be flexible and considerate in our actions

3 with our colleagues on the Board.

4 And if you have a motion, please

5 make it clear and concise. I need to

6 understand it, so that I will be able to know

7 how to deal with it.

8 And if it is obvious that you

9 don't have the votes, please be clear and

10 concise, so that your comments and your

11 position are very clearly put on the record

12 without belaboring or repeating your points.

13 Pursuant to the Policy and

14 Procedure Manual, the Chair of each

15 Subcommittee will be presenting the

16 Subcommittee's written motion to the full

17 Board, and that motion comes from the

18 Subcommittee with a second.

19 So, I now turn over at this point

20 to the Materials Subcommittee, to Dr. Walker.

21 MEMBER WALKER: Thank you, Madam

22 Chair.
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1 We have two items. One item is a

2 non-voting item, terminology and excluded

3 methods by Zea, and one proposal to vote on

4 2014 research priorities. And we hope to vote

5 on that particular today.

6 And we will start off with Jay on

7 2014 research priorities.

8 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you, Mr.

9 Chair.

10 I'm sorry, did you see the slides

11 in that folder in the Dropbox?

12 Okay, just some background. As

13 you all may know, the NOSB every year puts

14 together a proposed research agenda. And it

15 does this by asking each Committee to generate

16 priorities and, then, those priorities are

17 discussed within each Subcommittee and, then,

18 handed over to the Materials Committee to sort

19 of put them together. So, the work that is

20 contained in this presentation is the result

21 of the work of all the Subcommittees of the

22 NOSB.
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1 The first slide, which you will

2 see in a minute, is one on background. A

3 recommendation for a framework to set research

4 priorities was approved at the NOSB meeting in

5 May 2012. That is when we first started this

6 process.

7 The priorities from the previous

8 year of NOSB deliberations are presented at

9 each fall meeting. Each fall, after

10 recommendations are finalized by the NOSB, the

11 Chair of the Board will make sure to send to

12 the primary organic research funders, such as

13 NEFA, ARS, NRCS, and private foundations and

14 other funders that may be identified. All NOP

15 staff, NOSB members, stakeholders can use the

16 list for inspiring appropriate research.

17 The criteria that we adopted back

18 in 2012 includes the following:

19 Persistent and chronic or

20 perennial topics of debate and need. So, the

21 first criteria is persistent and chronic.

22 The second criteria is
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1 challenging.

2 The third criterion,

3 controversial. Topics on which there are

4 widely-differing perspectives or for which

5 there have been close NOSB votes.

6 Third is nebulous. The research

7 need is hard to identify, but the organic

8 agriculture need is clear; for example,

9 improved methods of weed control.

10 The third is lacking in primary

11 research, that is, topics for which there is

12 no active research being conducted primarily

13 relating to the criterion OFPA for review of

14 materials.

15 And then, finally, relevant to

16 assessing the need for alternative cultural,

17 biological, and mechanical methods to

18 materials on the National List.

19 And that list was generated

20 through a public process in which we received

21 public input, that the NOSB received public

22 input.
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1 Okay. So, there you see them. 

2 Thank you.

3 Next. Just to give you a little

4 bit of background or remind you that, back in

5 2012, on the left side there you see the

6 research priorities that were adopted by the

7 Board: whole farms systems research,

8 evaluation of copper sulfate for rice,

9 evaluation of antibiotics, evaluation -- or

10 alternatives, sorry -- evaluation of

11 genetically-modified vaccines, organic

12 aquaculture, methionine alternatives,

13 carrageenan.

14 And then, in 2013, the list grew a

15 little bit. Whole farm systems is carried

16 over. Alternatives for antibiotics again,

17 evaluation of GMO, vaccines, methionine

18 alternative. They still remain high

19 priorities. We added organic aquaculture,

20 aquatic biodiversity, herd health, pastured

21 poultry, and salmonella, commercial

22 availability assessments, consumer demand,
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1 fate of genetically-engineered material and

2 compost, and reduction of genetically-modified

3 content of breeding lines.

4 Now this year this is the list we

5 came up with. And I think this time we tried

6 not to include what was on previous lists, to

7 some extent at least.

8 The first one being alternatives

9 to Bisphenol A, BPA; plant disease management;

10 soil-building practices; mitigation measures

11 for residues in composts; Organic No Till; how

12 contaminated with GMOs is at-risk seed;

13 research on integrity of breeding lines and

14 foundation seed, and ways to mitigate small

15 amounts of genetic presence in breeding lines;

16 risk reduction from off-target exposure to

17 non-permitted materials; mastitis; parasitism;

18 pneumonia, and plant extracts.

19 And these are comments we

20 received, not that many, but we received

21 comments from three individuals and eleven

22 organizations. They are qualitatively very
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1 good comments.

2 Beyond Pesticides, Organic Center,

3 MOSAS, Food and Water Wash, Consumers Union,

4 Cornucopia, CCOF, the National Organic

5 Coalition, the American Chemistry Council, PCC

6 Market, Natural Markets, and the Alliance for

7 Natural Health.

8 The comments went like this: most

9 commenters supported current and proposed

10 priorities.

11 Three singled out BPA alternatives

12 to support, also warning about problems and

13 alternatives. One said BPA is safe.

14 Others singled out for support

15 were research on seed purity; integrity of

16 breeding lines and foundation seed' and

17 providing guidance on how to reduce unwanted

18 traits in breeding lines; whole farm systems;

19 research; pastured poultry, especially to

20 determine best breed for pasturing and flavor;

21 evaluation of genetically-modified vaccines;

22 alternatives to antibiotics; risk reduction
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1 from off-target exposure to non-permitted

2 materials.

3 Continuing in response -- let's

4 see -- in response to previous identification

5 of consumer expectations as a research

6 priority, Consumers Union submitted the

7 information which you heard about earlier on

8 two surveys it performed. Results include 69

9 percent of consumers think it is important to

10 avoid artificial ingredients. I am not going

11 to repeat these since everybody in the room

12 heard these, but we heard from Consumers Union

13 on the survey.

14 Comments. Let's see, the next

15 one. Let me go on with that. Okay. Comments

16 on Subcommittee priorities. The following

17 were each identified by one consumer as non18 priority issues: fate of GMOs in compost;

19 organic aquaculture; aquatic biodiversity;

20 commercial availability assessment; consumer

21 demand; mitigation of residues in composts;

22 risk reduction from off-target exposures in
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1 prohibited substances, or to prohibited

2 substances.

3 And then, additional priorities,

4 the following topics were suggested by more

5 than one commenter: alternatives to hydrogen

6 chloride for cottonseed preparation;

7 degradation impacts of biodegradable bio-based

8 bioplastic mulch; chlorine alternatives;

9 chelating agents impacts, and remediation of

10 persistent herbicides in compost.

11 And then, additional priorities

12 were suggested by one commenter: how soil

13 health affects plant health; mitigation of

14 negative impacts of tillage; alternative

15 mulching materials; herbal medications for

16 animal infections, and sulfurous acid issues.

17 And this is our last comment from

18 the Organic Center: requested that NOSB draft

19 a letter to USDA requesting mandatory organic

20 representation on USDA Research Boards and

21 Committees.

22 So, Mr. Chair, that sums it up, I
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1 hope.

2 MEMBER WALKER: Thanks, Jay.

3 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you.

4 MEMBER WALKER: I think at this

5 point we will open it up to the Board for the

6 discussions. Am I right, Madam Chair?

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

8 Nick?

9 MEMBER MARAVELL: I just have --

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Your

11 microphone.

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: I'm sorry. I

13 just have one very minor point which I should

14 have brought up earlier. Under the research

15 on integrity of breeding lines and foundation

16 seed, and ways to mitigate small amounts of

17 genetic presence in breeding lines. That is

18 obviously small amounts of genetically19 engineered presence, because they are all

20 going to have genetic material.

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes, I realize. 

22 I mean --
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: So, I didn't

2 know whether or not --

3 MEMBER FELDMAN: That should be

4 clarified.

5 MEMBER MARAVELL: -- that needs to

6 be. It is clear if you read down through the

7 explanatory text. But, given that that is the

8 heading, it is a very minor point.

9 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Mac?

11 MEMBER STONE: I have a question

12 for Miles or maybe Betsy. How is this

13 document carried further into USDA or into the

14 research community or communicated out, what

15 we have come up with here?

16 MR. McEVOY: We do things at the

17 National Organic Program. I am going to let

18 Betsy, though, give a more fuller response of

19 how that aligns with Secretary Vilsack's

20 Organic Guidance.

21 MS. RAKOLA: The way that we have

22 shared the NOSB research priorities in the
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1 past is to pass those to the Research Project

2 Action Team of the Organic Working Group,

3 which is led by Mat Ngouajio of the National

4 Institute of Food and Agriculture. Matt

5 oversees the Organic Research and Extension

6 Initiative, and he shares the document with

7 that Committee, with all the members of the

8 Committee, and they review it when providing

9 responses to the NOSB.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

11 much.

12 MR. McEVOY: So, just to add to

13 that, it is very important to USDA to get this

14 list of priorities, and it is shared widely,

15 and it has resulted in a number of different

16 research projects being supported by USDA.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

18 Miles.

19 Others? Colehour, you look

20 like -- yes?

21 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.
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1 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you.

2 Since I am not a member of this

3 Subcommittee, I would like to request that you

4 expand a little bit on your comment, Jay,

5 regarding -- I don't know how to characterize

6 it, except for you said something along the

7 lines that the previous year's research

8 priorities were not to be included in this

9 year's, or something like that. And I want to

10 understand a little better why and what if

11 they still are ongoing needs, you know, why

12 not to include them.

13 MEMBER FELDMAN: I think I am

14 correct in saying that. We were trying to

15 separate the ongoing from the new ideas that

16 emerged as a result of the last year's work. 

17 I mean, that is what we decided to do, I

18 guess.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Colehour, a

20 followup?

21 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. I guess I

22 think a little bit more understanding, just
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1 for the sake of -- I guess I also want to

2 understand the prioritization component of

3 this process because it wasn't entirely clear

4 to me where the priorities are or how

5 something -- what that use of that word in

6 your description means.

7 Because I think, like I said, if

8 something wasn't done in 2012 or 2013, you

9 know, does it automatically carry over and/or

10 is it characterized as, well, these are still

11 priorities because they weren't addressed? 

12 And how does somebody getting this list know

13 what the main priorities are? I think, for

14 me, those things are combined.

15 I wonder if you could address that

16 further. Thank you.

17 MEMBER FELDMAN: I'll turn it over

18 to Zea. But just to say, you know, this comes

19 from all of the Subcommittees. So, you know,

20 we are trying to present the best effort of

21 every Subcommittee in terms of its priority

22 items. Obviously, when you bring those all
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1 together to one list, the Materials Committee

2 didn't prioritize that.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea?

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: We did make the

5 decision because we had sort of a funny cycle,

6 in that it wasn't a full year because of the

7 government shutdown. So, we actually just

8 approved last year the 2013 at the last

9 meeting.

10 But we did decide that we would

11 focus on new ones for this cycle, while still

12 publishing the list of the previous ones. And

13 maybe we could have been a little clearer in

14 saying that we consider all these previous

15 ones still valid, but we are adding to it with

16 our newest ones from the past cycle.

17 Now, in terms of prioritizing, I

18 think, you know, we asked the Subcommittees to

19 prioritize their own selves, and we got

20 various response to that. Some had real

21 priority ranking systems, and other

22 Subcommittees just turned them all over to us.
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1 And we could do a little better if

2 we started a little earlier in the

3 Subcommittees. And so, we should work on that

4 internally, to try to get a more clearer

5 picture of it, because we were very rushed at

6 the end. Otherwise, the Materials Committee

7 themselves would have had more time to talk

8 about it and maybe make a rank with the

9 different Subcommittees, but we didn't have

10 time.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you for

12 that clarification. That is an important

13 point, to get started on it earlier, and to

14 get clarity as to the extent to which research

15 priorities have dropped off the list or if, in

16 fact, they have just been carried forward and

17 cumulative.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: We don't

19 consider any of them dropping off the list.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

21 questions, comments?

22 (No response.)
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1 Are we ready to vote on this item?

2 MEMBER WALKER: Madam Chair, we

3 are.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Dr.

5 Walker.

6 We will start the voting with Dr.

7 Taylor.

8 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes.

9 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I'm sorry, you

11 have to have Lisa write.

12 What? Sorry?

13 DR. BRINES: Just a clarification. 

14 Do we have a motion and a second before

15 commencing with the voting?

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: You want me to

17 repeat it? Or do you want to repeat the

18 motion?

19 DR. BRINES: Yes.

20 MEMBER WALKER: Our motion is to

21 accept the 2014 research priorities.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And the second
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1 from the Subcommittee was? Jay?

2 MEMBER FELDMAN: Second.

3 DR. BRINES: Okay.

4 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes.

5 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

6 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

7 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes.

8 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes.

9 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

10 MEMBER STONE: Yes.

11 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes, ma'am.

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes.

13 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

15 MEMBER WALKER: Yes.

16 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And the Chair

18 votes yes.

19 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: 15-0.

20 MEMBER WALKER: Okay. Now the

21 next item and the last item is a non-voting

22 item, an item that has generated a lot of
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1 interest among our family. It is excluded

2 methods terminology.

3 Zea will lead that discussion

4 document for us.

5 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Now that

6 it is five o'clock in the afternoon, we are

7 ready for a nice, easy subject to end our day.

8 (Laughter.)

9 While Michelle is pulling up the

10 slides, I guess I will start with the

11 background.

12 And I guess, do I call to you for

13 next slide? Oh, you're bringing me a clicker? 

14 Okay.

15 So, I hope all of you who have

16 followed this subject, you all are familiar

17 with definition that is in the federal law for

18 excluded methods. This definition was written

19 in 1995, when biotechnology was far less

20 advanced than it is today, and it was best at

21 the time to encompass all of the different

22 possible biotechnology genetic engineering
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1 things. But it has become outdated over the

2 years. And so, we are attempting to clarify

3 it.

4 And in order to clarify it, we

5 need to develop a structure that we can sort

6 of use to get it down to the nitty-gritty. 

7 So, we proposed a first discussion document a

8 year ago now -- was it? -- or even longer

9 because of a cancelled meeting. But we had a

10 first discussion document in which we examined

11 all of the terms that were in the definition

12 that we have now.

13 And then, we also examined some

14 other terms that had come to our attention

15 from the community. And then, we asked the

16 community to weigh-in on any additional terms

17 we had missed and what should we do about this

18 all. Should we clarify the definition or not?

19 So, we got back a number of

20 comments, and there is a pretty full

21 discussion of this in our second discussion

22 document, of what the commenters said.
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1 We got people that were very

2 concerned that we might go for a rule change

3 and try to open up the rule to change the

4 definition, which then opens up the rule to

5 other undesirable consequences. And so, we

6 discussed this in some detail, and we decided

7 that a guidance would be the best way to go.

8 And so, we are making that clear

9 in this discussion document, that guidance is

10 the way we are heading.

11 Okay. We put out a proposal of

12 different other definitions and principles

13 that were suggested. And I am not going to go

14 into the long part about it now. You can all

15 look at it in the actual document.

16 But we had ethical criteria,

17 operational criteria, all the new terms that

18 had come to us which we gave some preliminary

19 definitions of, but none exhausted.

20 And then, we went into the

21 somewhat arcane discussion of how this would

22 fit into a process-based rule when, in fact,
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1 in the U.S. so far it has mostly been product2 based assessments of GMOs, where each

3 particularly new strain that wants to be

4 introduced goes through its own so-called

5 review or, in our opinion, lack of review, and

6 just hits the market without really a very

7 comprehensive approach to any of it.

8 And yet, a lot of other types of

9 genetically-engineered things, if they are not

10 a straight crop variety, don't even have to be

11 evaluated in order to come into market. And

12 so, GMOs are creeping in at all levels of our

13 food supply.

14 Okay. We posed several questions,

15 basically, thinking, you know, asking if

16 people wanted guidance, if people thought that

17 the Cartagena Protocol definition was a good

18 way to go, if process-based or product-based,

19 et cetera.

20 We received 19 specific comments. 

21 And I have given the group's -- whoops, I

22 forgot to push the button; process or product
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1 -- 19 specific comments. This does not

2 include the dozens and dozens of people who

3 wrote in, you know, "Just keep GMOs out of our

4 food." I only counted up the ones that

5 actually gave input on the discussion document

6 itself. And these are generally them.

7 Most commenters were in favor of

8 clarifying excluded methods through guidance. 

9 A few of them didn't really want to rush into

10 it. They thought we should survey everybody

11 about everything first.

12 But most commenters agreed that

13 the process-based approach was more consistent

14 with the rule and the needs of the organic

15 community. Several of them acknowledged that

16 a process-based standard could incorporate

17 some quantitative tools for assessment of

18 compliance.

19 Okay. So, that is what I just

20 read.

21 Many of them supported the

22 Cartagena Protocol definition, but some
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1 concern about the language concerning beyond

2 the taxonomic family, which is the contentious

3 portion of the cell fusion decision, which

4 will be one of the terms that will be coming

5 up in the future discussions over the subject.

6 Okay. Several people suggested

7 some more new terms that we overlooked or that

8 came out in the interval between the time we

9 threw out the last round of terms. So, we see

10 they are coming out all the time.

11 And some of them, if you read the

12 very brief descriptions I gave, are very

13 complicated techniques and which are getting

14 sneakier and sneakier in the ways that GMOs

15 are entering our food supply.

16 Several people pointed out there

17 is a somewhat gray area between a process and

18 a product, and, you know, the intertwined

19 thing such as a GMO technique was used to

20 create a variety, but, then, all traces of the

21 GMO are then gone from it. And so, you

22 couldn't even test it as being a GMO variety. 
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1 And things like that are all things that we

2 are going to have examine once we get an

3 infrastructure in place to do this.

4 Certifiers, bless their heart,

5 pointed out that they need a lot of training

6 in order to review anything that we come up

7 with because it is now always apparent how to

8 even tell where the GMOs are, much less how to

9 determine if a particular technique would be

10 allowed or not allowed.

11 And then, last but not least,

12 survey data is badly needed on the extent of

13 excluded methods in organic contamination

14 occurring in the field and all of the things

15 relating to that and relating to the economic

16 loss that farmers experienced from these

17 consequences.

18 So, our intention is to remain

19 visible in the organic community in working on

20 genetically-engineering topics in all forums. 

21 At the next meeting we will be providing GMO

22 prevention strategy guidance suggestions, as
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1 was indicated in the NOP memo.

2 We very likely will post this

3 exact same document again or something very

4 similar to this with just a few minor

5 modifications. Because we realize that it is

6 not a long enough period of time, one month,

7 to digest all of this very complicated

8 information and be able to give us some

9 valuable input.

10 So, you can forward to this again

11 in six months, but in the meantime anyone is

12 welcome to turn in comments to the NOP at this

13 email on the screen,

14 nop.guidance@ams.usda.gov. It may or may not

15 get forwarded to us. And if you do so, you

16 will also want to hold it and post it to The

17 Federal Register the next time the docket

18 opens.

19 But we appreciate any further

20 input on this at anytime, and we also

21 encourage you to pass this on to all of your

22 colleagues, particularly in the seed industry,
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1 plant breeders, other GMO experts, because we

2 would like to hear from a lot more people than

3 19 about how we are going to approach this

4 important subject.

5 Thank you.

6 MEMBER WALKER: At this point we

7 open it up for discussion by the Board. Any

8 questions for the presenter Zea?

9 (No response.)

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Nice to see the 

11 Board so engaged on this.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MEMBER STONE: So, this is a

14 moving target at best. How do we ever draw a

15 line in the sand, given the rapid change of

16 technology and interest, and whatnot? I don't

17 see how we come to some conclusion versus some

18 process of determining a conclusion. Does

19 that make sense?

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, we are

21 working on the process now. What I envision

22 is adopting a definition such as Cartagena
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1 Protocol with or without some modifications

2 for our own use; agreeing that we are going to

3 do process-based reviews, starting with a

4 chart similar to the one I presented a portion

5 from FiBL that they submitted in their last

6 public input.

7 And I think we would start with

8 the very most obvious things that we all agree

9 are, you know, recombinant DNA and never would

10 be allowed in organic. Once we have that

11 structure going and the way to modify and

12 change it and review new items, we will tackle

13 the ones that the community is more divided

14 on, you know, maybe not one at a time, but

15 just a few at a time.

16 Because like certain techniques,

17 like cell fusion, for instance, the type of

18 cell fusion we have talked about in the past,

19 or at least the seed industry has talked about

20 in the past, is primarily for Brassica hybrids

21 and the process occurred 30 years ago, but now

22 it has come down for many generations in
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1 breeding, and you can't tell which hybrids are

2 produced that way because it is not out there

3 yet.

4 But there are other types of cell

5 fusion that are now being used, like this

6 fast-track thing to create the plum, where

7 they insert it into the plum, they get a

8 quicker-bearing plum, and once the plum starts

9 bearing, they take it out again. And so, that

10 is clearly something we could head off at the

11 pass, you know, before anyone starts growing

12 these, but it is still cell fusion.

13 And we just have to get into the

14 weeds and sort out this terminology. We can't

15 do that until we have an overarching

16 definition that works and doesn't have such

17 unclear terms in it as the one that is in the

18 law now, and until we work through the

19 procedure of how we are going to make changes

20 and modify the list.

21 MEMBER STONE: And then, we fight

22 real-time information versus the glacier
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1 moving through the python of getting it

2 through NOP and back out. So, how do we think

3 about that part of it?

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, guidance

5 is fast compared to rulemaking. And besides,

6 there will be NOSB recommendations along the

7 way that people can refer to when they are in

8 process.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Could I ask a

10 question, Zea? Do you think that -- you

11 didn't get a huge amount of really focused for

12 this, I noticed, although plenty of passion

13 and some in-depth. But do you think you are

14 getting a broad enough input from a range of

15 all stakeholders at this point?

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: No, which is

17 why I want to put it out again. We have

18 started the process of like organizing some

19 discussion group/focus group things at some of

20 the big organic conferences this winter. I

21 imagine we will have one at Ecofarm and

22 possibly Organicology, which is the West
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1 Coast, what I know about it. And I hope that

2 other regions would do the same, so that we

3 can get a lot of regional input on the

4 subject.

5 Things that happen during apple

6 harvest don't happen as well for me as things

7 that happen during the winter, being a farmer. 

8 So, for the last discussion document, I was

9 able to reach out directly a lot more to plant

10 breeders than I have done this time, for

11 instance. But that is why we are going to

12 have another round at this.

13 MEMBER BONDERA: Okay. I just

14 have a quick comment in relation to what you

15 were just talking about because I have

16 commented this informally to Jean, and I think

17 that I don't know or if it can go anywhere.

18 But I wonder if you guys and/or we

19 should consider a listening session on the

20 subject, so that people from all around can

21 participate.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Maybe Miles
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1 could talk about if that is possible.

2 MR. McEVOY: Well, I am glad that

3 this is going on, this discussion about

4 excluded methods, as it is an old definition

5 and it makes it difficult for both the NOP and

6 certifiers to make the determination because

7 the definition itself has some areas that are

8 hard to reconcile.

9 We tried to clarify that in the

10 cell fusion policy memo that we put out a

11 couple of years ago that outlined some of

12 those areas that are hard to reconcile and

13 figure out a path forward.

14 And the GMO vaccines is another

15 area that is very challenging. And we are not

16 talking about GMO vaccines, but I do have a

17 thing to clarify GMO vaccines for tomorrow,

18 when we get to that, right? Livestock is

19 tomorrow? Thursday. Okay, good.

20 So, I am glad this effort is going

21 on. I guess my question is guidance has

22 utility to help provide clarification on how
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1 to comply with the existing regulations, but

2 it is not the regulations. And it does take

3 a long time to do guidance. It is basically

4 the same amount of resources that we have to

5 put into doing guidance as doing any kind of

6 rulemaking, except it is a little bit less,

7 but it is the same process.

8 We do Draft Guidance, get the

9 comments, and then do Final Guidance. But it

10 still has to go through a significant amount

11 of clearance, legal clearance, Departmental

12 clearance. And at the end of the day you have

13 guidance, which you can't take regulatory

14 action on guidance. Guidance is just a way to

15 comply with the existing regulations. So, I

16 think you have to really think about, is that

17 the best mechanism for clarifying these areas

18 or updating the excluded methods definition?

19 Rulemaking has its own challenges

20 because, then, it basically does open up that

21 definition for changes. So, that is always

22 something to consider very, very carefully,
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1 whether or not you want to do that.

2 The other mechanism is we have the

3 policy memos. That is how we clarified things

4 on cell fusion. Policy memos are a lot easier

5 for us to develop and implement. And that is

6 basically our interpretation of the existing

7 regulations, but it goes a lot faster than

8 going through Draft Guidance and Final

9 Guidance. The thing that is missing in doing

10 a policy memo is we don't do the public

11 comment process, but the NOSB can do a public

12 comment process in terms of your development.

13 And then, the final mechanism that

14 may be something that you should really look

15 at is instructions to certifiers because that

16 is something that, if you are trying to

17 determine what's in/what's out, and the

18 existing definition of excluded methods

19 already has the regulatory language that you

20 need, the instructions can really clearly give

21 certifiers and the community, but mostly

22 certifiers, the tools they need to clarify
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1 what is in and out in terms of what is

2 excluded methods or GMO or not.

3 The other thing that seems to be

4 very important to look at is what is really

5 the industry standard is the OMRI decision

6 tree on GMOs. I am sure you have looked at

7 it. But that might be a way of getting into

8 this conversation more deeply. How far back

9 in the process do you go to determine whether

10 something is excluded or not? How many steps

11 back in the process?

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea?

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you,

14 Miles.

15 At the beginning of preparing this

16 document, we did ask the Department to weigh17 in on what our options were, short of

18 rulemaking. So, it is helpful that at least

19 now at the meeting many months later you are

20 telling us there are other options besides

21 guidance. And perhaps we can find out more

22 about like the difference between a policy
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1 memo and an instruction, and all that, and

2 elaborate that on our next version of it.

3 We just felt it was important. I

4 guess I mean, by our resolution, guidance in

5 the general sense of the word, not in the USDA

6 sense of the word. And so, what form that

7 guidance takes is something we can explore

8 more, if it is a policy memo, instruction,

9 like that.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jay?

11 MEMBER FELDMAN: I am trying to

12 get a sense, Miles, from you as to how you

13 would use this information. Obviously, this

14 would come as a recommendation, whether it is

15 guidance or rulemaking. And at the end of the

16 day, there is an internal process that can

17 take pieces or all of whatever comes from the

18 NOSB. I just want to verify that.

19 MR. McEVOY: Yes, the Board can

20 provide us with a recommendation on excluded

21 methods, and that could come in a variety of

22 different forms. It could be a recommendation
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1 for rulemaking. It could be a recommendation

2 for clarification through guidance or

3 instruction.

4 With any recommendation that we

5 receive, we then do our own analysis to see,

6 okay, do we have the authority to do this? If

7 we do have the authority to do this, do we

8 want to do it?

9 And then, if we do want to do it

10 what is the best way to implement that and

11 make it effective? Is it through rulemaking? 

12 Is it through just clarification to

13 certifiers.

14 And so, what we will do in this

15 process is try to provide as much information

16 as we can, so that whatever recommendation

17 comes out at the end of this process, we can

18 most easily implement into our system.

19 MEMBER WALKER: Okay. I would

20 like to name and thank the Committee members. 

21 Nick Maravell was a part of this Committee;

22 Dr. Jennifer Taylor; Zea Sonnabend.
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1 And we thank Zea because many

2 times, as the Subcommittee Chair, my biggest

3 issue is just to help move things along

4 because sometimes we want to make sure because

5 we have had experiences sometimes the programs

6 have issues with some of the things that we

7 are doing. And my task many times is just

8 hoping that we could get it out to the public. 

9 And Zea has done a very good job of getting

10 things out, and that the program can agree

11 with as well.

12 Also on the Committee is Dr.

13 Francis Thicke. He will be dealing with the

14 GMO strategies. I will be assisting him, and

15 hopefully, one of the new Board members.

16 Dr. Wendy Fulwider is also a

17 member of this Committee, along with yours

18 truly.

19 And we appreciate the help of Dr.

20 Brines, who is on the call once a month. 

21 Emily is also on the call and Betsy Rakola. 

22 And last, but not least, is Michelle Arsenault
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1 who is also on the call.

2 And every now and then, we get a

3 cameo -- oh, I'm sorry, Jay. Jay is also on

4 the call.

5 So, quite often, we have greater

6 than 10 or 12 individuals on the call.

7 And, Harold, we appreciate your

8 sitting in from time to time and hope, coming

9 up, that you will be a part of the Committee

10 because the more Board members participating

11 and listening in, it is very helpful as we are

12 trying to hammer out to get out to the public.

13 Madam Chair, that's it.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you for

15 your Subcommittee report and for the

16 information provided in it.

17 So, this brings us pretty much to

18 the end of today's proceedings.

19 I think, Mac, you had something

20 you wanted to comment on?

21 MEMBER STONE: I just wanted to

22 remind everybody there is a reception tonight
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1 at 21C Museum. If you go out the main door of

2 the hotel and walk uphill away from the river

3 to Main Street, it is about four or five

4 blocks to the right. And when you see a 20-

5 foot tall red penguin, you will know you are

6 at the right place.

7 (Laughter.)

8 I think it starts at 6:30, and I

9 hope all of you all can join us. There will

10 be a lot of great organic food and a good

11 chance for all of us to share and just be

12 friends for a few hours.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And I am going

14 to wave my magic wand because we had a really

15 good day. So, let's just make sure we carry

16 forward the good vibes until morning, when we

17 will meet again at 8:30.

18 (Applause.)

19 (Whereupon, at 5:31 p.m., the

20 meeting was adjourned for the day, to

21 reconvene the following day, Wednesday,

22 October 29, 2014, at 8:30 a.m.)
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Declarations 4:12

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153:4

managed 13:12

189:12

management 14:15

22:20,22 37:16,22

38:2 53:17 62:6

66:18 88:14 89:4

93:9 95:18 96:11

105:5 173:18

225:7 236:12

318:9 430:11

432:13 446:9

manager 2:14 4:6

8:6 31:14 61:4

172:4 224:13

229:4 233:22

365:12 408:6

419:22

managers 31:20

290:19

managing 165:22

430:22

mandated 230:15

mandates 146:2

mandatory 449:19

maneuvering 237:8

manifest 281:8

manner 45:10

57:13 130:21

137:14 278:18

Manual 73:7

130:11 146:5

439:17 441:14

manually 61:21

manufacture

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356:2

manufacturer

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227:8 424:19,21

manufacturers

166:16 200:3

319:1 347:15

348:2 358:20

398:19

manufacturing

352:18 354:5,12

354:16 355:2

396:6 398:15

410:4

manure 245:8,8

maple 26:6,9

mapping 62:8

maps 205:14

marathon 437:5

Maravell 1:16

10:14,14 220:3,6

255:8,19 256:1,4

326:12,18 327:6,8

327:22 328:20

329:3,7,12,20

330:2,7,13,21

332:15 450:9,12

451:1,5 458:16

477:21

march 160:2

269:19 274:21

marginally 256:9

256:15 257:11,12

257:20 258:2,11

260:13 335:2,10

margins 135:2,8

257:22

marine 181:5

mark 11:14 78:8,8

144:8 147:16

150:5,14 194:5

198:10,12 201:16

marked 126:4

market 18:5 20:8

21:13 28:22 33:4

34:1 51:1,16

54:22,22 55:1,2

55:14 57:8 70:8

73:7 87:22 88:3,5

88:21,22 137:1

162:15,22 208:22

212:8 216:19

226:1 249:19,20

276:16 307:19

326:10 331:13

332:11 337:12

339:16 375:10

397:7 420:22

424:7 426:16

447:6 462:6,11

marketed 21:6

marketing 2:12 3:4

3:8,12,20 5:6

13:14 57:10 66:16

134:12 200:6

209:12 268:15

338:4 401:2

marketplace 21:6

34:3 136:3 192:16

210:1 226:4

282:18 338:7

355:19

markets 43:15 55:4

67:15 70:9 268:6

447:6

marsala 121:18

422:16 436:16

Martex 144:19

Marty 139:2

Maryland 10:15

mason 207:6

massive 159:8

master 61:12

mastitis 314:22

446:17

Mat 452:3

match 244:3,4,8

matched 361:7

material 41:22

42:2 120:6 121:14

124:6 141:14,18

142:8 143:1,9

144:21 214:1

219:11,14 279:13

292:17 300:2

302:12 311:3,15

320:4,6 342:20

357:15,16,18

360:15 362:14,16

362:21,22 363:21

364:2 370:22

371:1,7 372:1

373:5 381:8

389:10,17 404:19

415:1,10,11,14

417:3,20 420:17

421:7 424:1,19

425:1 427:2 446:1

450:20

materials 4:5,15

12:15 13:1 40:8

40:10 41:16,17

42:14 82:6 84:11

115:3,10,17,20,21

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286:19 289:12,17

maximum 242:11

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mean 107:9 140:15

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392:15 400:2

407:14 428:13

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meaning 38:19

57:15,17 226:9

227:16 272:21

meaningful 17:6,7

20:5 101:21

196:16 228:8

266:17,18 283:11

390:1

means 49:1 77:17

78:15,21 81:5

82:9 156:16 191:2

192:14 194:15

199:16 237:20

265:22 269:2

273:17 281:17

454:6

meant 249:2

435:22

measurable 80:7

measured 205:5

measurements

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measures 204:19

222:9 446:10

measuring 281:18

431:13

meat 94:19 95:1,6

95:8 244:1 287:18

287:20 399:22

meats 314:16 340:5

345:15

mechanical 207:22

208:6,12,14,18

209:3,22 210:1

300:3 303:1

304:21 306:7

307:4,13 444:17

mechanism 142:2

280:17 428:6

473:17 474:2,13

media 9:12 352:7

357:5,6 408:18

409:18

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medical 290:19

medications 449:15

medium 244:14

255:11

medium-sized

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meet 5:16 47:16

51:16 184:4

212:16 220:22

251:20 322:9

328:18 329:2

343:1 395:19

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meeting 1:3 3:17

5:8,9,14,20 6:2,8

12:5 17:12 18:12

18:21 25:2 27:10

28:5 54:13 59:14

65:2 68:5,15,16

75:21 76:11 77:2

96:21 98:4 101:8

113:3 115:21

116:20 117:5

118:3,18 120:16

121:5,11 122:5

123:3,11 126:18

128:18 129:17

130:1,15 137:18

139:2,7 142:1

145:8 149:18

154:2,19 162:13

176:13 204:19

215:5 221:12

229:8 264:19

277:6 280:16

281:3 284:17

291:9,12,18,20

292:1,3,7,18

293:16,21 296:2,6

296:9,11,13,16

298:13 309:19

310:1 314:5

343:20 355:7

392:11,12,13

404:7 430:1 436:1

437:17 438:5,9

439:7 440:10

443:4,9 455:9

460:9 465:21

475:19 480:20

meeting's 391:4

meetings 7:8,19

8:16 24:10 72:20

81:21 92:5 119:5

122:6 123:4,12

144:12 149:16

157:14 163:9

250:22 285:7

286:2 291:15

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member 10:3,14,21

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241:22 247:6,18

247:22 248:7,10

248:19 249:4,9,11

250:7 251:11

253:4,14 254:19

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257:15,19 258:3

258:16 259:4,8,15

260:8,15,17

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276:20 278:6

279:18 289:14

294:17 296:18

297:7 308:15

309:4,15 316:16

325:3,7 326:12,18

327:6,8,22 328:20

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330:2,7,13,21

332:15,19 333:1,6

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memos 319:15

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mentoring 59:9

mercury 287:14

message 158:2

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messy 262:16

met 1:7 5:15 16:8

55:8 73:6 142:22

153:7 337:18

metabolizes 352:7

metals 262:10

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methionine 98:17

241:22 242:4,8,11

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methodologies 62:4

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micronutrients

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microorganism

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microorganisms

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microphone 450:11

mid 138:18

Mid-Atlantic

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mid-word 138:19

middle 96:6 246:14

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midway 85:19

Midwest 229:6

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migratory 181:15

Mike 238:15

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Miles 2:17 3:3,11

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million 32:16,19

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mimicking 227:20

mind 115:22

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minerals 351:17

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mini-census 103:16

minimal 205:1

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minimally 374:10

minimize 429:22

minimized 183:8

minor 71:5 298:9

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minutes 3:17 6:10

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Mirenda 313:15

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Mitchell 317:12

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model 190:2 387:6

Modernization

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modification 379:5

modifications

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modify 468:11

469:20

modules 58:18

Mom 287:12

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moment 68:10 77:6

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momentum 154:4

money 75:1,11,18

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382:22 383:12

404:20

monies 74:18,20

monitor 19:11

71:10 182:2

205:17 382:15

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monitored 56:22

monitoring 46:4

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mono 374:15

month 78:9 387:3

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month-long 70:21

months 37:18

40:16 41:9,21

43:21 71:22 89:20

90:18 94:6 95:22

141:20 279:5,7

337:21 428:15

466:11 475:19

moral 232:5,14

233:1,4,6

morbidity 245:17

252:19

morning 6:8 9:9

10:9,21 14:1 16:3

17:14 18:18 20:15

22:10 23:6 25:5

28:3 63:12 69:18

76:19 115:13

139:21 150:19

151:3 155:14

161:10 172:1

180:6 436:2

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Morrill 11:8

mortality 245:17

245:21 252:8,18

252:19 253:1

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328:16

MOSA 229:4,14

233:22 234:1,7

236:10,21 237:18

MOSAS 447:3

mother 286:13

410:15

motion 119:15

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motions 120:8,11

215:3 293:9

300:19 439:8,14

mouth 346:7 377:7

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move 11:18 14:18

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137:9 191:6 213:7

215:3 218:15

219:12 239:22

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391:1,9 407:15

428:8 432:8 437:7

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moved 159:18

movement 67:21

151:17

Movements 380:6

moving 6:3 11:21

18:6,15 47:17

54:17 59:22 62:18

120:13 124:20

125:1 149:16

156:3 184:11

212:22 214:17

467:14 470:1

moxidectin 125:15

MRO 312:19

MROs 313:3

mud 288:1

mug 161:5

mulch 449:8

mulching 449:15

multi 136:1

multifaceted

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multiple 46:19

multiplication

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MuscleMilk 405:18

Museum 480:1

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mutate 346:3

N

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321:18 339:5

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65:20 66:12 68:3

86:19 92:19,20

96:17 98:5 103:4

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120:19 123:8

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140:1 149:3

155:16,17,20

159:15 177:5

207:20 212:6,12

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227:13 237:19

266:22 274:14

298:19 299:6

301:14 302:12

311:3,13 312:9,14

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428:11,11,17

432:10 433:3

434:21 437:12

441:5 443:20

444:7,8,16 460:5

465:5 474:20,22

needed 35:21 86:12

119:16 120:7,10

126:1 209:22

228:7,13 237:5

303:3,12 322:11

347:13 351:12

381:7 396:6 397:4

405:15 432:4

465:12

needing 315:14

needs 60:11 80:2

89:22 95:19 97:4

97:10,14 156:6

158:21 167:3

195:13 200:15

208:17 219:15

244:4,9 251:21

255:10 263:7

275:19 279:2

306:9 307:21

322:9 342:9 386:3

418:15 451:5

453:11 463:14

NEFA 443:13

negative 148:13

152:8 342:15

343:6 449:14

negatively 149:2

neither 180:22

nervous 175:2

networks 94:10

neutral 381:17

never 180:20 184:4

375:6 468:9

nevertheless 65:8

new 9:5 26:22 31:8

31:14,16,19 32:1

32:3 35:14,21

44:11 48:19 56:6

56:8,8,10,11

58:12 61:17 63:2

85:6 86:4,17

87:17 88:15 93:5

94:12,17 108:10

115:3 125:9,10

126:2 127:7,18

130:13,18 139:6

140:18 141:11

142:3 148:16

149:3 151:13

154:5 158:19,20

190:2 208:2,17

210:7 226:21

232:18 290:21

292:4 293:15

302:15 303:9,14

320:14,15,15

362:14 375:11

390:15 395:18

405:14 409:20

410:11 416:15

440:5 453:15

455:11 461:17

462:3 464:7

468:12 478:15

newer 119:6

newest 455:16

newfound 143:22

newly-broken

196:8

news 87:22 88:4,5

111:17 387:11

Newsletter 43:7

newsletters 426:9

NGOs 148:17

Ngouajio 452:3

nice 18:10 77:3

146:17,17 459:7

467:10

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Nicholas 383:22

393:10,13 397:21

Nick 1:16 10:14

220:2,15 222:15

254:18 326:11

450:8 477:21

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nine 49:13

Ninety-one 267:20

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nitrogen 245:8

nitty-gritty 460:6

noble 154:17

NOC 128:16

129:22 139:20

140:9 159:14

NOC's 156:3,9

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164:11 188:15

264:12 293:13

306:16 312:16

325:19 350:11

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non-compliances

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394:20 421:13

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111:16

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199:17 231:7

323:15 338:1

352:3,7 421:17

424:15,22

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non-organic 45:20

121:16 225:9

243:11,13 258:17

259:2 299:6

301:14 306:4,13

325:17

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346:2

non-permitted

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non-synthetic

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250:3 370:16

373:8

non-target 341:12

non-voting 442:2

458:21

nonprofit 187:10

nonsense 278:21

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74:22 75:4,10

76:6,9 93:2 94:21

115:13 117:7

118:15 126:20

128:16 129:12

130:6,10 131:4

133:21 134:14

137:7 140:12

141:19 143:17

151:12 152:19,21

153:12 154:15

159:11 166:9

183:9 184:6

187:11 189:19

194:10,22 195:21

196:21 199:21

200:3,21 201:1

203:11 204:16

226:18 227:5

234:16 236:16

241:8 276:6

277:10 278:2

291:2,4,16 292:10

292:20 293:8,15

294:3,7 295:1,3

295:15 306:19

311:12 320:10

322:12 346:20

347:2,12,14 348:1

382:4 383:9 406:4

408:10 429:15

432:19 433:6,10

438:6 440:4

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197:13 290:22

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201:5 254:11

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Normally 297:8

north 21:20 22:16

162:2 224:14

344:11 430:19

Northeast 145:13

Northeastern

385:2

northern 161:22

Northwest 14:8

343:9

NOSB 3:14,16 4:7

4:9,10,13 10:1

27:4 28:5 35:5

44:20 51:20 52:5

53:22 54:10,11,12

64:4 77:2 116:1

126:18 129:10,16

130:2,9 132:1

135:15 137:8

140:3 141:12

142:19 144:12

145:8,16,21

151:12 155:21

157:13 159:20

163:9,12 164:6,9

165:3 166:8

167:12 168:11

174:2 180:21

183:12 184:6,21

185:18 186:11

189:6,20 194:19

203:5 212:1,15

226:14 227:4

235:22 237:3

239:16 241:7

270:21 277:6,14

277:22,22 291:5

292:4,7,10 293:8

293:11,21,22

294:1,20 295:1,14

295:16 298:13

311:17 320:8,9

341:19 344:6

346:17,20 347:4

347:14,19 348:1

352:22 354:6

382:5 383:9 384:9

384:18 385:1,15

402:18 404:7

408:9 411:5

420:12 423:3,8,21

424:3 429:10,16

430:1 439:9

442:13,22 443:4,8

443:10,15 444:5

444:21 449:18

451:22 452:9

470:6 474:11

476:18

NOSB's 158:20

163:15 188:3

212:5,21 300:5

301:2 314:2 346:1

348:15

NOSB-adopted

306:20

NOSB/NOP 227:9

notably 182:22

note 23:22 117:6

125:18 214:15

380:8

noted 202:17

409:22

notes 44:20 115:15

157:15 232:12

notice 25:1 65:6

73:12 111:18

115:8 141:8

157:17 291:14

292:19 388:10

noticed 207:15

470:12

notices 44:22 47:2

49:7,8

notification 72:3

notoriously 376:18

novel 409:20

November 110:3

NRCS 93:1,4 94:2

189:1 195:1,4,10

203:19,21 204:4

384:20 430:3,6,12

432:16,20 433:7

443:13

nuance 218:16

nuanced 188:8

number 6:19 14:17

33:6 34:21 36:5

39:9 40:17 43:13

43:18 44:5 48:12

48:17,22 55:15

58:8 66:3 71:20

71:21 81:3 88:16

107:11 118:3

119:1 122:17

125:3,7,16 128:18

129:12 130:5

181:13 190:20

229:15 253:9,11

307:10 324:2

325:12 333:22

334:2 336:6 343:9

348:18 358:21

360:21 384:5

398:18 400:7

452:15 460:19

numbers 33:1 83:6

131:11 253:17

254:3,5 282:9

333:8,14 334:12

numerous 144:22

294:3 394:6

395:17

nursery 23:18

nutraceutical

402:9

nutrient 93:8 256:9

256:13 322:19

323:9 352:7 357:5

357:6,7

nutrients 173:5

177:11 351:18,19

365:16 366:22

367:8 368:15

409:17,22

nutrition 98:20

225:6 298:10

324:9

nutritional 323:6

330:19 331:20

394:20

nutritionally 366:3

nutritionist 254:7

260:10 322:1

326:20 334:3,20

335:5

nutritionists

258:21

nutritious 257:12

O

o'clock 436:2 459:6

obfuscate 278:19

object 164:8

objecting 158:17

objections 27:18

objectively 183:18

obligation 166:20

obligations 166:19

observations

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277:7

observe 9:1 188:14

318:13

observed 129:16

obsolete 283:14

obtain 373:7 425:3

obtained 372:13

obvious 16:13

441:8 468:8

obviously 72:17

156:22 174:11

175:22 196:10

450:18 454:22

476:13

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336:1 396:11

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94:2 101:13 149:1

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120:12 134:16

140:14 141:5

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163:18 182:6,18

272:9 292:14

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249:4 255:2,6

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290:8 293:17

332:18 336:2

344:5 356:20

367:15 459:13

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376:10

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305:21 360:5,6

408:21

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27:5 28:3,12

32:10 34:10 54:16

59:22 63:15 69:12

116:17 123:6

148:1,21 160:9

161:17 170:11

171:18,19 176:21

186:21 187:2

191:18 198:9

202:9 218:10

222:19 247:18,22

248:19 249:4,9

259:21 260:16,17

261:5,5 270:11

286:17 290:8,12

295:6 297:7,19

304:12 309:1,5

313:11 321:17

330:2 333:15

335:19 336:10,19

337:6,7,9 344:5

350:5 354:14

355:4 356:5 357:2

357:11 363:15

411:16,20 418:10

418:20 419:8,13

419:19 437:3

439:4 442:12

445:1 448:15

458:3,20 459:5,14

461:11 462:14

463:19 464:6

471:13 472:19

477:6,19

old 21:1 104:11

127:10 151:12

159:7 245:3 287:7

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249:3 327:15

OMB 37:16 294:4

omelet 413:5

OMRI 13:1 379:22

381:16 475:5

on-demand 307:7

on-farm 104:3

onboard 78:12,17

once 58:20 60:3

96:19 100:1

105:20 129:16

170:22 241:6

281:20 382:11

465:2 468:10

469:8 478:20

one-fifth 401:20

one-on-one 86:13

106:6,11

one-size-fits-all

431:4

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117:21 119:3

122:18 124:10

288:12 297:3

324:4 347:6 356:2

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158:9 189:20

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221:4 409:16

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Opening 3:6

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operate 70:15

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operating 13:6

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56:10,11 282:19

317:16

operation 34:5

45:19,21,21 50:13

50:15 52:3 100:18

188:22 318:16

operational 461:17

operations 28:17

30:8,9 44:8,10,15

46:5 47:21 48:1

52:10 57:15 60:3

61:11,19 62:9

63:11 90:15

104:22 107:12

187:17,22 229:5

234:1,2 239:5

303:13,14 317:18

381:4 389:9

430:18 433:13

operator 424:20

operators 104:12

190:21 194:11

230:20 262:5

381:2 421:11

422:7 423:10

opinion 74:5 282:6

282:7 369:2

387:22 462:5

opinionated 154:8

opinions 66:8

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opportunities

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282:21 390:16

418:5

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25:21 50:15

206:15 237:1

261:6 265:2 282:3

314:1 317:20

350:6 365:9 384:2

387:2 388:22

390:1 393:20

403:9 408:13

429:11 440:11

opposed 225:9

246:21 343:4

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opposite 140:16

opposition 65:13

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optimistic 387:6

391:7

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option 83:1 90:20

optional 62:11

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142:19 153:4

163:1 167:21

200:13 232:20

237:21 243:21

244:9 251:20

252:13 272:3

275:15 278:20

329:1 350:1

364:19 439:20

440:1 460:4

462:11 465:6

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179:10,10,11

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102:17,17 103:11

103:16,18,22

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106:10 107:2,5,7

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164:15,17,20,22

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183:1,4,10,16

184:3,5,9,12

188:10 190:8,15

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193:13 194:13

196:2,11,16

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203:3,9,16 204:12

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205:16 206:14

207:12,17 209:11

209:14 211:1,5,7

211:18,19,22

212:6,10,17,21

213:1,8,11 214:8

214:11,13,21

216:5,9,18 217:7

217:11,19 218:15

219:13 220:12

221:15 222:1,3

224:13,15,18,19

224:20,20 225:1,2

225:8,17,21 226:1

226:6,8,9 227:3,6

227:7,10,11 228:9

230:19 231:2,14

235:2 236:5

237:19,20 239:17

241:9 242:1,7

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259:9 261:18

262:8 265:22

266:3,15 267:13

267:19 268:7,16

268:21,22 269:1,4

269:14 271:7,15

274:2 275:15

276:16 282:12,17

282:21 284:3,11

284:13,19 285:4

285:12,18 286:4

287:8,20 288:3,4

288:22 289:8

290:18 292:15

293:14 298:5,6,11

298:21 299:1,3,8

299:14 301:16,19

303:13 305:14,15

305:19 306:17,17

307:8 308:1 310:9

313:20 314:7

315:8,12,22 316:1

316:10 317:4,15

317:18,21,22

318:3 319:4,5,7

320:10,19,20

321:22 322:2,6,8

322:11 323:10,15

324:9,18 325:14

325:20,22 326:5,8

326:10 328:11

338:12 339:6

340:2,8,8,17,20

343:11 344:10,12

344:19,22 345:1,5

345:11,13,14,15

345:19 347:1,3,8

347:18,21 348:5,7

348:8,9,12,16,17

348:18 350:22

351:11,14,15,21

352:2,21 353:1,20

358:16,20,21

359:15 360:2,5,6

360:19 364:17

365:11 367:1

370:1,8 372:6,8

373:3 374:7 378:4

379:22 380:6,17

380:20 382:2,8,10

382:17 383:5

384:12,12,14,20

385:4,6 386:1,8

386:17 388:1

391:17 394:9,11

394:13,16 395:8

395:17,19,20

397:2,7 398:7

401:8,12 402:16

403:13,14 405:16

410:12,13,16,17

411:4 412:11,14

413:20 415:3,9,9

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432:17 433:7

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435:1,4 436:8,9

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443:12 444:7

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447:2,4 448:19

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181:21

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24:17 103:13

106:15 161:21

248:17 259:7

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organics 11:18

43:9,11 67:13

75:17 76:5 87:18

132:14 133:6

134:19 148:11

169:4 174:20

283:22 287:6

383:11

organism 99:2

312:11 352:8

organisms 81:13

199:17 240:15

312:8

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30:9 42:3 129:6

163:9 164:5 180:9

311:15 351:6

381:17 423:3

433:19 438:19

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organizations 59:2

59:17 65:15

108:19 195:11

211:18 219:4

446:22

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OTCO 430:18

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284:12 285:5

outcome 153:17

418:22

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outdated 460:1

outdoors 99:14

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overall 34:8 164:18

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overlooked 464:7

overlooks 381:13

overly 193:6,15

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Overreliance 431:7

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oversee 21:17

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oversimplification

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overview 77:9,17

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overwhelming

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owe 138:15 139:1

owned 172:12

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owner 434:14

owner/operator

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packaged 218:5

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parliamentary

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188:22 194:22

196:21 214:11,13

217:2 269:4,12

293:10 295:21

328:17,21 347:3

372:1 398:11

422:13

required 46:6 52:1

53:21 94:22

182:13 194:18

195:8 197:9 198:1

204:16 228:7

230:17 234:15

235:3 292:21

299:3 345:6

396:22

requirement 52:6,9

203:20 328:19

329:2 334:4,6,9

334:15

requirements

29:12,13 34:18

40:20 47:16 54:15

58:7 61:14 70:18

93:1,2,7 181:22

237:16 262:1,19

269:16 283:18

284:6 303:15

318:15,19 343:1

requires 50:3

194:11 203:11

276:15 292:15

293:11 371:19

430:16

requiring 92:14
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Reserve 108:4

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reset 261:5

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residue 34:7 40:20

51:4 52:7 262:12

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residues 51:9,9,11

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204:13 262:11,20

263:6,9 446:11

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resist 165:1

resolution 32:21

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resolvable 182:17

resolve 432:21

resolved 181:3

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resonate 433:20

resonated 187:13

resorting 316:7

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107:5 109:2

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resources 50:19

57:21 58:1,2 82:8

83:13,20 92:19

93:11 105:22

107:20 108:15,17

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188:16 189:5,9

249:14 430:7

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respect 69:10

138:19,20 145:5

152:2 153:16

185:1 301:9 382:5

respectful 146:10

154:7 348:4

respectfully 200:7

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respond 91:4 138:7

250:13,17 293:7

392:3 397:12

responded 372:8

435:2

responding 40:19

52:19 105:13

390:19

responds 96:16

response 27:15,19

76:14 114:12

128:5 139:17

144:4 148:13,15

150:16 155:7

161:2 179:22

187:1 193:21

198:8 202:15

206:20 222:18

228:19 233:15

238:10 241:12

250:14 265:5

268:1 313:10

317:7 321:13

349:10 365:2

369:12 379:14

383:18 389:20

390:9,9 393:6

400:14 403:1

411:13 412:12

419:10 434:6

437:1 448:3,4

451:18 455:20

456:22 467:9

responses 275:10

372:12 387:12,13

388:21 391:16

452:9

responsibilities

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responsibility

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154:19 163:16,17

166:9 217:9

222:13 232:12

responsible 19:8

21:14 80:9 215:1

221:22 363:13

rest 30:10 137:17

137:20 187:14

381:12,16 382:22

383:10 389:16

407:11 437:12

restore 194:9

restored 87:16

restraints 383:13

restrictions 237:8

246:3

result 113:8 152:10

266:16 302:2

442:20 453:16

resulted 452:15

resulting 154:21

246:3 361:12

371:13 398:12

results 51:5 54:6

58:21 59:13

189:22 204:9

205:14 269:19,21

282:13 372:11

388:17 448:8

retail 20:17 339:18

344:9

retailer 20:21

21:18 227:8 339:6

retailers 20:19

211:10 348:6

retain 400:10

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retire 108:5

retired 274:19

returns 189:17

193:17

Reuben 1:18 10:22

revealed 185:6

204:14

revered 382:3

Reverse 154:3

review 13:1 38:2,9

38:10,11,14 42:2

47:1,4 53:9,18,20

53:21 54:1,4,5,7,9

54:14,15 57:4

116:22 117:9,13

117:22 118:4,12

119:2,8 120:15

121:4,6,20 122:11

123:2 125:2 132:4

142:3,6 143:10

148:22 158:9

159:4,6,17,18

197:2,13 208:2,5

208:9 213:12

215:1 219:6,17

226:19 280:1

291:3,5,17 292:9

293:22 297:11

302:4,21 311:14

311:15,19 313:2

319:19 320:8

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347:4 356:22

357:12,19 358:1

363:3 364:9

370:17 371:2,3,6

371:8,15 378:13

379:22 381:8

386:14 387:8,21

389:11 390:15

392:12 399:9

425:4 444:13

452:8 462:5,5

465:6 468:12

reviewed 37:8,15

119:4 183:11

346:22 364:16

Reviewer 357:1

reviewers 45:12

201:5 205:3

reviewing 278:14

reviews 292:6

320:3,6 321:5

384:20 390:15

423:21 428:9

468:3

revise 214:12

revision 117:17

391:9

revocation 49:21

149:9

revoke 50:12

revoked 44:10

revolved 198:19

revoted 226:21

rewarding 24:8

rewrite 130:11

Rex 2:12 3:7 5:4

6:6

Ricci 2:19 8:21

rice 287:14 395:7

445:8

Richardson 1:8,11

3:9 4:8,14 6:5

9:18 10:17 24:22

25:22 26:2 27:18

69:13 71:11 72:9

74:12 75:5 76:12

111:6 112:7

114:10,15,22

127:22 128:11

139:9 144:1,7
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255:22 256:3

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265:17 271:1

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311:22 329:3

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354:20 361:19

384:1 387:6

390:21 396:11

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416:9 438:11

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286:9

rigor 153:2

rigorous 197:4

rise 359:4 396:14

risk 88:14 89:3

90:8 95:18 96:11

105:5 263:4

359:20 432:2

446:16 447:22

448:22

risks 231:18 345:22

385:14

river 162:6 480:2

RMA 89:12

road 154:12 284:1

roadblocked 173:9

Robert 270:21

Robert's 439:20,22

robust 15:6 74:7

158:8

rock 398:21

rocks 288:13

Rodale 101:4

role 25:11 29:6

77:17 132:6

141:12 212:5

265:21 273:2

roll 288:1

rolled 279:5

rolling 94:5 242:7

rollout 58:12

Rome 8:17,20

room 17:1,8 22:8

35:18 47:13 73:14

84:16 98:10 113:6

132:14 135:9

145:2,12 150:2

176:1 220:17

229:14 311:10

363:22 448:11

rooms 149:21

150:2

root 184:16 262:4

rooted 211:19

Rosen 2:15 7:16

Rossiter 286:18,19

rotating 208:13

265:14

rotation 204:7,11

204:15

roughly 19:11

173:21 328:3

round 218:17

219:1 390:14

428:8 464:9

471:12

route 37:4 70:13

154:11 178:9

rule 35:22 37:3,15

37:20 38:5,7,13

38:20 39:3,9 40:3

52:8 90:16 156:4

195:21 197:19

202:3,7 294:8

461:2,3,4,22

463:14

rulemaking 157:17

276:13 470:5

473:6,19 475:18

476:15 477:1,11

rules 34:17 35:12

35:14 37:7,8

38:17,18 42:4

67:1 134:3 174:1

294:4 345:13

439:20,22

ruling 49:14 440:6

440:17

rulings 440:18

run 13:13 178:2

259:22 267:1

426:13

running 7:6 63:9

225:13 297:21

313:17 349:18

rush 463:9

rushed 456:5

RUSLE2 203:20

204:14 205:10

431:8

Russell 202:21

207:2,4,5

S

S-E-S-S-I-O-N

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sacrifice 323:18

sacrificing 410:20

safe 174:5 199:18

361:22 372:4

396:3 447:13

safeguarding

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safer 208:7 209:5

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35:11,14,22 81:10

94:20 180:9,16

236:11 265:11

298:6

sake 422:11 454:1

sales 45:17 104:1

133:8 164:17,18

211:5 224:20

227:10 339:18

348:10 405:1

salmon 181:17

182:22

salmonella 99:10

445:21

salt 181:20 315:18

salts 126:11 173:8

173:12 370:14

Sam 2:20 9:11,13

sample 168:2 425:7

samples 406:13

sampling 52:13

386:15

San 3:17 27:11

139:2 149:19

413:9 420:1

sand 467:15

sanitation 372:22

421:22

SAP 358:19,19

359:2,13,16,17

393:22 396:2,19

396:21 397:2,7,14

398:6,20,20
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126:6 132:6 230:6

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300:16 466:13

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182:1 184:3 192:5

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73:8,8 132:15

137:4 344:19

345:19 348:17

search 272:9

season 110:11

320:14

seat 12:20 80:22

seawater 182:3

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38:9 50:11 55:18

78:6,9 120:2

169:21 175:19

181:14 214:3

220:4 237:13

238:14 293:16,21

296:2,4,6,11

386:3 392:12

409:7 441:18

443:22 457:14,22

458:2 460:21

Secretary 1:12

3:16 4:10 12:8,12

15:17 79:5 80:13

91:8 113:1,11

139:4 146:3 184:7

451:19

Secretary's 3:15

27:7 79:6 91:7

113:16 221:1

secretions 346:11

section 39:11,11,12

39:16,17,18

118:19 132:17

385:22 394:3

396:1 410:3

sections 39:10,13

39:14

sector 134:18

212:16 213:1

262:8 299:14

307:8 389:22

390:17 391:17

419:7

see 5:15 10:18

12:10 26:11,16

28:12 34:2 35:15

42:11 43:21 68:15

68:19 71:3 72:6

82:11 94:8 96:11

109:1 110:1

128:15 132:18

162:12 174:6

175:1 185:21

186:5 188:19

220:8 226:10

228:3 234:18

245:20 249:16

251:8 254:2 266:2

268:1,16 269:20

272:10 273:21

277:12 281:19

282:21 285:16

300:15 305:18

309:10 319:7

322:21 367:13,14

372:11 374:21

376:7,12 389:22

391:2,5,14 400:19

412:17 426:10

430:19 435:4

442:10 443:2

445:1,5 448:4,14

464:9 467:10,17

477:5 480:4

seed 162:9,11,22

163:4,7 167:16,22

169:13 170:19

209:9,15,16

214:18 216:5,15

217:4,5,8,8,10,11

217:20 220:4,13

227:22 228:2

326:22 331:5

337:20 385:21

446:12,14 447:15

447:16 450:16

466:22 468:19

seeds 386:1,1

seeing 20:7 27:16

89:21 130:21

162:1 258:10

327:9 330:16

415:22

seek 137:16 286:12

seeking 113:19

347:19

seeks 213:17

320:13

seen 77:4 183:13

216:14 250:2

252:22 268:8

275:21 281:4,7

306:1 338:19

375:6 415:11,12

415:13,15 416:4

440:12

sees 391:15

selecting 52:20

selection 89:12

selections 88:18

89:5

self 136:18

self-reporting

181:12

sell 20:8 21:15

103:19 331:10,12

361:17

selling 88:7

sells 340:1

selves 455:19

send 174:21 297:5

351:19 389:6

443:11

sending 104:21

senior 21:11

178:15 408:6

sense 206:10

229:17 233:11

249:6 280:4

467:19 476:5,6,12

sensibility 234:20

sensible 57:11,13

58:11,17 59:3

230:8 231:19

234:21 235:15

237:22 240:7

321:6 433:6

sent 27:11 63:10

70:20,21 167:17

170:13 178:1

sentence 138:19

151:1 160:11

201:21 237:12

349:4,6

sentiments 187:12

separate 296:12

299:18 352:13

453:15

separated 352:15

separately 342:9

September 48:7

59:11 86:16

sequestration

32:18

series 82:5 109:12

366:18

serious 33:22

182:21 194:21

227:5 345:12

426:18

seriously 188:13

345:18

serve 11:1 12:14

13:3 14:19 17:9

19:1 21:21 22:3

25:9,11 80:2

107:22 108:11

301:20 416:22
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seven 19:7

seven-and-a 23:14

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Seventy-four 267:9

severe 323:13

severely 181:18

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Shainsky 242:6

shake 407:18

shakes 405:15

shape 232:15

400:10

shaped 400:8

share 74:15 76:10

87:4 94:9 101:12

105:10 114:4

178:16 186:15

221:17 233:4

406:20 429:11

480:11

shared 114:7

220:20 430:6

451:22 452:14

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sharing 90:6

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sheep 256:22 257:7

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60:13 108:14

297:1

shelf 361:18

shepherd 156:5

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sherry 121:19

422:17,18,20

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shining 367:13

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Shistar 265:8

289:20 290:5,10

290:12,15 295:6

297:4,12,18

short 82:16 218:14

275:4 298:1 299:1

405:17 475:17

shortbread 377:15

shoulders 229:19

shoutout 17:16

20:18

show 89:13 95:13

161:21 298:14

314:19 315:2

335:12,14 416:4

419:5

showed 401:15

showing 368:10

shown 319:2

shows 152:9 231:10

239:21 252:5

285:3 326:15

412:13 426:11

shrinking 224:21

shutdown 455:7

sic 178:6

side 14:11,12 73:3

93:2 216:4 246:18

312:6 445:5

signal 148:20 160:7

161:12 175:17

246:5,7 373:11

397:16

significant 31:4

37:14 49:14 50:19

92:5 140:13 157:5

204:12 249:13

262:8 294:4,6

319:18 339:15

345:7 473:10

significantly

259:18

Sil-MATRIX

391:22

silicate 120:19

391:21

silver 325:8

similar 24:5 57:1

97:17 118:10

192:4 268:1

327:13 375:7

397:8 420:21

421:13 424:2

466:4 468:4

similarities 380:19

simple 143:4 176:2

202:2,6 231:16

359:16 374:9,19

376:13 377:10

431:12

simply 80:1 100:16

100:17 177:15

201:10,22 211:12

226:5 269:13

271:11 276:14

376:8 388:20

433:22

Simpson 295:7

sincerely 224:22

singing 153:19

single 79:14 248:5

372:6

singled 447:11,14

sir 365:3

sit 14:22 16:4 22:6

22:11 79:4 81:17

148:17

site 112:17

sits 7:18 8:15 15:8

361:17

sitting 15:20 78:22

437:6 479:8

situation 332:3

425:20 432:11

six 40:16 41:9,20

51:5,8 71:22

162:6 287:7

337:22 466:11

six-by-six-mile

162:3,7

sizes 318:8 343:11

SKUs 406:1

Sleeper 419:18

429:4,6,7 434:8

slide 28:11 117:20

126:15 132:10

152:11 252:5

259:20 295:18

326:14 351:22

354:19 443:1

459:13

slides 33:6 290:2

304:11 321:18

366:18 367:14

442:10 459:10

slightly 82:17

slightly-higher

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slightly-longer

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slim 135:1

slippery 152:11

slipping 266:16

slots 16:5

slow 32:12 151:2

255:11 342:14

359:3,10,11 388:2

slow-acting 359:11

slow-growing

244:14

slowly 382:19

396:22

slug 122:8 341:3,7

341:10,22 343:13

slugs 343:10

small 12:18 16:9

21:13 22:1,15

30:5 67:13 88:16

133:10 134:13

136:11 148:9

164:18 187:22

188:1 200:19

205:11 211:3

251:8,13 303:6,13

326:10 335:20

405:8 438:22

446:14 450:16,18

small-scale 10:5

smaller 46:21

134:17 424:5

Smallwood 101:6

smart 229:13

230:12

smarter 283:7,8

snack 402:10

snacks 402:9

snail 122:8 341:3,8

341:11,22

snapshots 82:12

sneak 94:17

sneakier 464:14,14

snippets 76:2

so-called 462:4

social 157:1 232:11
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115 4:5

11th 32:21

12 20:1 282:11

387:12 479:6

12,000 339:13

12:20 223:4

125th 11:14

128 4:7

13 32:18 59:1

133 28:19

138 4:9

139 4:11

14 20:22 26:12 31:3

48:3 59:1 336:21

337:2,4

140 1:8

1400 188:1

1450 403:17

15 120:9 283:10

375:5 401:17

15-0 458:19

15-minute 82:16

114:16 349:19

150 18:3 208:16

1500 239:5

16 104:11 298:12

160-mile 101:6

1600 229:5 234:1

162 49:6

16th 63:21

18 104:8 245:2,20

279:5,6 428:15

18-percent 252:7

18,000 30:10

1800 403:15

1862 11:9

1868 172:12

1890 11:11,16

1890s 11:14

19 11:5 372:7

462:20 463:1

467:3

1936 273:3

1975 24:18

1994-1995 125:10

1995 459:19

2

2 245:19 344:11

381:8

2,000 175:14

187:19 337:3

2.5 173:21

2.6 204:15

20 48:2 114:17

204:5 245:2 322:1

336:7 362:11

377:17 480:4

20-30 335:13

200 13:8

2000 371:3

2001 182:16 242:5

2002 214:7

2003 371:4

2004 354:7

2005 183:6

2006 370:8

2007 244:13 341:19

2009 55:17 342:3

201 82:15 83:15

2010 70:22 242:10

2011 39:1 51:4,20

54:4 149:1 370:17

371:5,15

2012 32:17 55:19

71:2 82:7 103:6

196:7 208:13

242:17 302:4

443:5,18 445:5

454:8

2013 51:22 52:6,8

80:10 91:8 208:5

208:9 445:14

454:8 455:8

2014 1:5 4:18 33:1

54:6 60:20 62:21

63:3 126:18

187:20 269:19,20

291:12,18,20

442:4,7 457:21

480:22

2015 37:2 38:17

59:14 104:21

120:14 121:13

122:3 291:6,11,21

380:11 405:2

407:7

2016 122:6,15

123:1 207:19

291:8 292:2

340:22 362:15

363:16 388:12,20

389:19 428:9

2017 123:7,9,12,20

124:5,8 428:9

205.200 197:17

205.203 262:3

205.237 132:17

205.600(b) 116:12

205.601 121:1

213:21

205.601(j)(2)

206:10

205.605 214:4

402:19 410:3

205.605(a) 121:15

264:22 350:11

394:3 395:16

205.605(b) 118:20

396:1

205.606 121:17

299:5

21 220:7 221:13

2117 53:22

216 103:8

21C 480:1

21st 113:18

22nd 298:12

238(a)(6) 236:15

24 181:8

25 92:4 248:1

365:13

25,000 30:8

2500 203:16

26 104:10 387:4

2609 51:22

27 3:15,17,18 104:7

28 1:5

285 48:7

29 49:7 480:22

3

3 133:7 248:1

307:19 377:12

3-percent 377:20

3,000 187:17

3:15 151:1

30 92:4 377:2,2

468:21

30-minute 82:17

30,000 83:22

300 339:14

30th 48:7

32 11:11 161:20
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 547

33 377:18

35 14:14 320:21

38 161:21 307:14

307:18

390 21:19

4

4 124:17,19 258:11

376:8

4,000 187:20

387:13

40 200:11 377:1

405:7,18

400 48:18 149:7

400,000 196:7

305:13

42 103:21

43 30:22 187:18

405:4

437 4:12

441 4:15

442 4:18

45 65:10 104:11

450 19:11

459 4:19

467 4:20

4th 1:8

5

5 3:2,6 51:10 52:2,9

243:11 254:10,20

258:11 259:1

325:17 372:7

413:6 414:8

5-percent 258:17

5,000 175:16

5.5 179:4

5.6 179:11,13

5.7 179:11

5:31 480:19

50 30:7 32:7 163:2

196:13 203:15

248:14 376:3

405:7

50-percent 246:20

328:3

50/50 47:20 239:7

500 260:6

54 49:8

540 307:7,16,18

55 196:15

6

6 3:9,10 254:10

6.5 179:2

6:30 480:8

60 64:14 246:22

248:14 376:3

60-cow 13:7

60,000-person

149:20

605 365:19

606 121:19 365:20

421:7

62's 11:16

64 187:21

6500 211:2

66 49:7

69 3:22 448:8

7

7 103:20 307:18

337:2

700 234:2 317:18

71 271:19

73 347:16

76 4:2 267:18

8

8 270:16

8:30 480:17,22

8:34 1:8 5:2

80 23:16 30:4 46:12

336:9

80-plus 60:14

80,000 339:11

9
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

548

National Organic Standards Board

USDA

10-28-14

Louisville, KY
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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 + + + + +

 NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD MEETING

 + + + + +

 WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 29, 2014

 + + + + +

 The National Organic Standards

Board met in Grand Ballroom B, Galt House

Hotel, 140 N. 4th Street, Louisville,

Kentucky, at 8:33 a.m., Jean Richardson,

Chairperson, presiding.

PRESENT

JEAN RICHARDSON, Chairperson

JOHN FOSTER, Vice Chairperson

MAC STONE, Secretary

HAROLD AUSTIN

CARMELA BECK

COLEHOUR BONDERA

JOE DICKSON

TRACY FAVRE

JAY FELDMAN

WENDY FULWIDER

NICK MARAVELL

ZEA SONNABEND

JENNIFER TAYLOR

FRANCIS THICKE

C. REUBEN WALKER

STAFF

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee

 Specialist

LISA BRINES, NOP National List Manager

EMILY BROWN ROSEN, AMS NOP Specialist,

 Standards Division

MILES MCEVOY, AMS NOP Deputy Administrator

CARRIE RICCI, Office of General Counsel
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 CONTENTS

Public Comments that Address the

Handling, CACS, Livestock and Crops

Subcommittees. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

Introduction of new NOSB Board members

 Miles McEvoy. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 267

Handling Subcommittee

 Harold Austin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 274

 Topics

 Proposal: Glycerin - petitioned for 

 removal

 Proposal: Whole Algal Flour - petitioned

 2015 Sunset Reviews/Proposals

 Marsala and Sherry . . . . . . . . . . 296

 Tragacanth Gum . . . . . . . . . . . . 302

 Gellan gum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 366

 2016 Sunset Summaries

 Microorganisms . . . . . . . . . . . . 378

 Egg white lysozyme . . . . . . . . . . 402

 L-Malic acid . . . . . . . . . . . . . 405

 Activated Charcoal . . . . . . . . . . 407

 Paracetic acid . . . . . . . . . . . . 410

 Cyclohexylamine, diethylaminoethanol

 and octadecylamine . . . . . . . . . . 414

 Sodium acid pyrophosphate. . . . . . . 417

 Tetrasodium pyrophosphate. . . . . . . 419

Compliance, Accreditation and Certification

Subcommittee Report

 Carmela Beck . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 424
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 8:33 a.m.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Good morning,

4 ladies and gentlemen. If you will kindly take

5 your seats, we'll get started with this

6 morning's public comment. This morning,

7 before the first public comment, Harriet -

8 MS. BEHAR: Oh, okay. I just

9 wanted to be heard.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: One second. 

11 We're just going to have a couple of -- I

12 know, she's raring to go.

13 MS. BEHAR: Hey, you said 8:30.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I know, and I'm

15 --

16 (Laughter.)

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The meeting's

18 out of control already. I asked Mac, since

19 he's our local Kentucky person, if he would

20 please say something or other this morning to

21 us before we start the day. Mac?

22 MR. STONE: Thank you, Madam
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1 Chair. I appreciate everyone coming to

2 Kentucky. We were looking forward to hosting

3 this meeting a year ago, and that didn't pan

4 out. There's been a lot of water over the dam

5 and under the bridge and around the dam and

6 everything in that past year. 

7 And frankly, the way the San

8 Antonio meeting went, I changed - frankly, I

9 uninvited the Commissioner of Agriculture to

10 make an address, who manages the organic

11 program, because I was concerned of what

12 perception he might take away from this

13 conversation. 

14 Frankly, I uninvited Mary Berry

15 and her dad Wendell for the same reason, in

16 that if -- I'm sure Wendell would see -- and

17 maybe we should have -- maybe I should have

18 let Wendell see that maybe we're not having

19 the right conversation. We're picking each

20 other apart a little bit rather than sort of

21 seeking some common ground and moving forward. 

22 So, but Miles, I do appreciate the
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1 fact that you're moving the meetings around

2 the country. We had some local people here

3 yesterday from Indiana at the reception. I

4 know there were some Kentucky folks here that

5 benefitted from all of us in the room being

6 here. 

7 But something that's crossed my

8 mind, my wife and I, that have a certified

9 organic farm, very militant about organic at

10 our house, and just sort of something, John,

11 that you and I have talked about and a few

12 others on the board, of let's all fill out an

13 OSP for our home just like the farmers and the

14 processors do.

15 So, just a few things, and Jean, I

16 won't go through this whole thing because I

17 kind of got carried away thinking about how

18 detailed, and what the certifiers do, and

19 provide the service that certifiers provide

20 farmers and handlers.

21 But in your house, carpet, it

22 ain't happening. VOC rating, all the stuff
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1 that's in carpeting, it's not organic, not

2 going to be in your house. That deck, no

3 treated lumber. You're going to -- but then

4 what kind of sealant are you going to use on

5 that deck if it's not treated? So you have to

6 develop a system around managing that. 

7 At our house, we use beautiful red

8 oak, random width, random length wood, and

9 found a sealant that would -- had a low VOC

10 rating, and we put a little more slant on it

11 so the water would drain away a little

12 quicker. We put a little water gap between

13 the planks. 

14 And those are the little examples

15 of what farmers and handlers do to meet the

16 intent of continual improvement. And I just

17 think we all need to look around at our own

18 homes, our own lives, if we're going to be so

19 critical of each other, and each other, of how

20 we seek continual improvement, Miles. 

21 So, that's just -- then the buffer

22 zone with your neighbor. You got to
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1 communicate with your neighbor. Their tree

2 hangs over the fence into your yard. You

3 know, how are you going to manage that? 

4 They're going to spray insects on their side

5 of the fence.

6 Personal hygiene, I'm not going to

7 go too deep into that conversation, but

8 hopefully your certifier is available and you

9 can get some information, and you can read

10 lots and lots of labels of what you can or

11 cannot use. Livestock farmers do a lot of

12 that.

13 First aid, sort of the same

14 iteration, and the problem there being some of

15 those remedies may not be readily accessible. 

16 You have to order them online. You have to

17 find them. You have to wait for them to get

18 there.

19 Pest control, you get a mouse that

20 comes into the house in the fall looking for

21 a warm spot. You don't have any vitamin D3

22 available. You've gotta find it. You've
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1 gotta wait for it to get there. You've got to

2 find a little trap.

3 Ants, yes, there are some great

4 ant baits, but we know they can hurt bee

5 colonies when they carry that back to their

6 hive.

7 So, I'd love to share more of

8 this, but in essence of time, and we have lots

9 of public comment, just in the kitchen, I

10 pulled out the processing application, OSP for

11 handling. And just think about in your

12 kitchen all of the various levels. 

13 So, just think about that. Pull

14 up a copy from your favorite certifier and

15 pretend you're filling it out for your home,

16 and recognize how diligent the farmers, and

17 the handlers, and the certifiers do to build

18 that logo and that label on behalf of all of

19 us, and let's just all work together to make

20 that, then seek this continual improvement. 

21 And the work of this board is very

22 rewarding to me. And those of us with our
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1 differences of opinion, but you'll see how

2 well we communicate and work together. And we

3 need your all's input to make this seal the

4 best it can be. Thank you.

5 (Applause.)

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

7 much, Mac. That was good thinking like in a

8 system, systems thinking. So you are, in

9 fact, now up, Harriet. Thank you very much. 

10 And on deck we have Linley Dixon.

11 MS. BEHAR: Okay, good morning. 

12 I'm Harriet Behar, organic specialist with the

13 Midwest Organic and Sustainable Education

14 Service, MOSES. I would like to address the

15 proposed NOP pesticide drift guidance, and

16 request that this guidance be in draft form so

17 that the NOSB, organic farmers and public will

18 be able to provide input on this important

19 issue facing our community.

20 In my work for MOSES, I receive

21 numerous calls each year from organic farmers

22 who have suffered from unwanted incursions of
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1 toxic agricultural chemicals onto their

2 organic land.

3 In all of these cases, there is no

4 question that the pesticide drift has

5 occurred, but there is a disagreement on what

6 type, if any, compensation should be given.

7 The farmer may have to destroy

8 their entire crop due to the fact that an

9 unregistered material was applied to that

10 crop, or may suffer the loss of the organic

11 premium due to the removal of the crop's

12 organic status.

13 In addition, there's the

14 possibility that the land itself will be

15 determined -- or to be decertified for one,

16 two, or three years from producing an organic

17 crop.

18 While organic farmers feel they

19 should be reimbursed for their losses, it is

20 not just about the loss of their income. They

21 want that financial penalty to be placed on

22 others to discourage this type of problem from
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1 occurring to them and other organic farmers in

2 the future.

3 Beyond this, it's not just about

4 the money. In the Upper Midwest, organic farm

5 fields are an oasis of life in a sea of

6 sterilized and degraded land. 

7 The buffer zones and riparian

8 areas surrounding organic fields have diverse

9 plants, shrubs, and trees providing habitat

10 and food sources for threatened amphibians,

11 birds, butterflies, pollinators and mammalian

12 wildlife.

13 Through organic practices, organic

14 farmers continually improve the critically

15 important soil food web, encouraging a healthy

16 and robust diversity of soil biological life. 

17 The incursion of unwanted toxic

18 materials on organic land does more than just

19 hurt the bottom line of the organic farmer. 

20 It sets back the progress the farmer is

21 continually making in developing a healthy

22 ecosystem upon which they rely to produce
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1 abundant and healthy crops.

2 Organic farmers have told me that

3 they can see to the row where the drift event

4 had occurred numerous years before. The weed

5 species growing in those areas are different

6 and more problematic than they areas when they

7 had not had drift. 

8 The soil texture is less friable

9 and has less water-holding capacity due to the

10 reduced soil biological life. And future

11 crops have less vigor and health, also

12 diminish more beyond that first year.

13 In 2013, the Supreme Court of

14 Minnesota, in a pesticide drift case, took

15 away the rights of an organic certification

16 agency to deny certification of a field and

17 crop that had pesticide drift. 

18 In 2014, when the drift occurred

19 again, the certification agency did not

20 decertify that crop. The organic farmer is

21 currently appealing that decision to the NOP.

22 It is understood that organic
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1 producers are a very small segment of the

2 agricultural production in the U.S. However,

3 farmers who have had this problem, not one of

4 them would welcome the opportunity to sell

5 that crop they know to be contaminated as

6 organic.

7 With the continued approval of new

8 GMO and herbicide-resistant crops, I believe

9 there will be more drift. Organic farmers

10 want the NOP to provide a strong platform from

11 which they can make a case to those who will

12 chemically trespass on the organic land that

13 economic compensation is the right of the

14 organic farmer. 

15 It is only unfortunate that they

16 cannot also receive compensation for the pain

17 and suffering caused by seeing the land they

18 have nurtured so carefully to be despoiled.

19 I want to thank Jay, John and Joe

20 and Wendy for their service to the organic

21 community, and I hope that they enjoy all the

22 free time that they will now have.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great

2 presentation. Thank you, Harriet. Questions? 

3 Harold?

4 MR. AUSTIN: Might as well start

5 the morning off right, Madam Chair? Good

6 morning. Thanks, Harriet.

7 MS. BEHAR: Good morning.

8 MR. AUSTIN: You talked about the

9 concerns for additional future drifts. The

10 source of, just for a little more

11 clarification I think for everybody, from

12 ground application, pivot application, aerial

13 application, where would that additional

14 concern come from?

15 MS. BEHAR: Well, part of it has

16 to do with the new 2,4-D, which tends to drift

17 a lot more. I know that they have this new

18 formulation that's supposed to not drift quite

19 as much. But I really feel that there's just

20 -- there's almost an attitude because organic

21 is so small. 

22 And after the Minnesota Supreme
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1 Court decision, which I have gotten phone

2 calls from farmers in Illinois whose insurance

3 agency, from the drift, the person who caused

4 the drift, tell them that they're not going to

5 give them compensation based on the Minnesota

6 Supreme Court decision. 

7 So it's spreading around the

8 country that organic farmers have been told,

9 you're just the little guy. You just have to

10 learn how to deal with drift because we are

11 the dominant form of agriculture. And just,

12 there's going to be drift, and just deal with

13 it. 

14 And that's really unfair to the

15 organic farmer, especially for the reasons

16 that I said, that they really are this oasis

17 of biological life that we can't just deal

18 with drift. It has to stop at the property

19 line so we can go on and do our good work.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Miles?

21 MR. McEVOY: Yes, as I mentioned

22 yesterday, we're working on draft guidance for
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1 pesticide drift. I think it's really needed

2 for consistency across the country in terms of

3 how certifiers deal with drift on organic

4 farms. It really varies from state to state

5 in terms of the impact and the recourse that

6 the organic farmer has when they get drifted

7 upon.

8 So, Harriet mentioned a Supreme

9 Court case in Minnesota recently. There's a

10 very interesting Supreme Court case in

11 Washington state from 1973, I think it's '73,

12 where the organic farmer prevailed in that the

13 drift was considered an application of

14 prohibited substances. 

15 And it set the precedent of, if I

16 remember correctly, strict liability so that

17 compensation in Washington state is relatively

18 easy to get when you're drifted on whether

19 you're an organic farmer or a conventional

20 farmer when you get pesticide drift.

21 So it's very complicated. There

22 was actually a conference on pesticide drift
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1 in Portland, Maine about 12 years ago that has

2 a lot of resources in terms of how drift is

3 looked at, management of drift, and what

4 happens when drift occurs in various states. 

5 So I'm sure there's been a lot of

6 additional information since then, but we're

7 hoping to work on that. And if the board's

8 interested in that particular topic, we can

9 certainly collaborate with the board on

10 developing that draft guidance.

11 MS. BEHAR: I was giving my

12 impression from the Upper Midwest, and that's

13 why I thought it should, for sure, be a draft

14 guidance so everyone in the country would have

15 a chance to bring their experience and

16 knowledge to the table.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you for

18 raising that. The next speaker is Linley

19 Dixon followed by Amy Simpson.

20 MS. DIXON: Good morning. My name

21 is Linley Dixon. I'm a policy analyst for the

22 Cornucopia Institute, and I have a PhD in
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1 plant pathology. My husband and I own a 100-

2 member CSA and farmer's market vegetable farm

3 in Durango, Colorado. I'm here to testify

4 about contamination of farm inputs from

5 firsthand experience.

6 My first year farming, I was able

7 to collect old hay from many farms and buy

8 several tons of six-year aged horse manure

9 from a rancher, black gold. I'd won the

10 lottery, or so I thought. 

11 We spread the compost, months

12 passed, and the tomatoes in the greenhouse

13 didn't grow. There were distortions on the

14 leaves of many crops but not on others. The

15 extension agent diagnosed it as curly top

16 virus. 

17 He said the virus arrived a few

18 years ago and he's been getting roughly 200

19 calls a year with these same symptoms on

20 solanaceous and leguminous crops in

21 particular.

22 I've traveled the world collecting
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1 and diagnosing tomato diseases, publishing

2 papers and presenting at international tomato

3 disease conferences. This was not a virus. 

4 I spent months conducting bioassays with the

5 compost. I found information from NCSU about

6 herbicide carryover in compost, and told the

7 extension agent that my bioassays indicated

8 this was the problem.

9 My compost was sent to Dow

10 AgroChemical for testing. The only places

11 that had the equipment to test for low

12 quantities of pyridinecarboxylic acids are the

13 companies that produce the herbicides.

14 The charge is $200 per test. 

15 There are 11 different pyridinecarboxylic acid

16 herbicides to test for. My extension agent

17 could only afford to test for one. This is

18 just one class of persistent herbicides that

19 could be the cause. 

20 The test came back negative, and

21 Dow recommended that the grower should conduct

22 bioassays before they can grow again.
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1 Meanwhile, I had to find new land

2 to grow my crops and give up on collecting

3 local free hay and manure. Every spring I

4 plant a tomato in the greenhouse to test the

5 soil for sensitivity. 

6 To this day, four years later, the

7 plants still show symptoms even though the

8 greenhouse soil had been watered and tilled

9 every year, supposedly optimum conditions for

10 these herbicides to break down. And don't

11 forget, the compost was seven years old when

12 I incorporated it.

13 The label for aminopyralids reads

14 that hay or manure cannot leave the farm

15 within 18 months of being sprayed. What a

16 joke. The herbicides last at quantities that

17 kill sensitive plants for years, and no one is

18 even following the label. 

19 Herbicide carryover is happening

20 all over the country. You hear about it when

21 it hits the big composting operations because

22 they have to explain the symptoms to hundreds
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1 of customers, but you don't hear about it when

2 it hits individual farms.

3 What CSA or farmer's market

4 customer wants to buy organic produce from a

5 farm contaminated with herbicides? Herbicide

6 carryover is being misdiagnosed as a virus. 

7 And if a farmer finds out they're

8 contaminated, they may protect their sales by

9 staying silent.

10 Persistent chemicals need to be

11 banned from production. It's nearly

12 impossible for organic farmers to be clean of

13 these materials once they're used. Farmers

14 should not be held responsible for

15 contamination or have to conduct bioassays for

16 months.

17 Liability should fall on the

18 manufacturer and user of the herbicides. It's

19 time for the large organic community, the

20 NOSB, and the NOP to educate the EPA about

21 what's happening. The only solution is for

22 the EPA to ban these persistent herbicides
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1 nationwide rather than banning them state by

2 state while farmers suffer.

3 There's a ban on the use of

4 pyridinecarboxylic acids in New York. They

5 can't be sprayed on pasture in Connecticut,

6 Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode

7 Island, and Vermont. The UK banned them in

8 2008 and released some under restricted uses

9 in 2011. 

10 What about the rest of us who

11 continue to suffer from their persistence? 

12 When it comes to compost contamination, we

13 need to choose our battles wisely, and go

14 after bans on the worst chemicals. We need to

15 ban persistent pyridinecarboxylic acid

16 herbicides. 

17 They are known to directly kill

18 crops at minute quantities. We're talking

19 about less than one part per billion. We

20 can't be going out and testing composts. 

21 These machines don't exist, and the plants are

22 more sensitive than the tests are. It takes
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1 a long time for them to go away.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

3 much, Dr. Dixon. Questions? Excellent

4 presentation, much appreciated. Thank you. 

5 The next presenter is Amy Simpson, and that

6 will be followed by Demetria Stephens.

7 MS. SIMPSON: Good morning. I'm

8 Amy Simpson, Policy Director and Staff

9 Attorney for Beyond Pesticides. As

10 frustrating and confusing as the statute can

11 be, it is within the words of the Organic

12 Foods Production Act that the very framework

13 of what it means to be organic must be rooted.

14 I thought it would be helpful to

15 use this four minutes to give a very

16 simplified tutorial and statutory

17 interpretation as there seems to be a lot of

18 confusion about what the words of OFPA

19 actually say, in particular with regard to the

20 Sunset Provision.

21 There are well-known rules or

22 canons of construction when you are trying to
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1 figure out what on earth those crazy

2 legislators wrote in the statute. Statutory

3 construction is complicated. There are many

4 books. But the basics can be boiled down to

5 the following: 

6 If the language of a statute is

7 plain and unambiguous, then it must be given

8 effect. If the terms of the statute have

9 received judicial construction before

10 enactment, the terms should be understood

11 according to that construction.

12 Every word and clause must be

13 given effect. Words are to be interpreted

14 according to the proper grammatical effect of

15 their arrangement within the statute. A

16 statute cannot go beyond its text. It all

17 starts with plain meaning of the words on the

18 page. And if those are clear, then you can't

19 contradict or reinterpret them away. 

20 Generally, when courts or others

21 interpret the words of a statute, the

22 assumption is that the words mean what a
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1 reasonable or ordinary person would understand

2 them to mean. So let's break down our example

3 provision as reasonable and ordinary people.

4 The first part, no exemption or

5 prohibition contained on the national list. 

6 No materials on the national list. This is

7 easy, right? Next part, shall be valid

8 unless. 

9 In the statutory world, shall

10 equals must, not optional or discretionary. 

11 So whatever comes after the, unless, has to

12 happen or else the material is no longer

13 valid.

14 Next part, the National Organic

15 Standards Board has reviewed such exemption or

16 prohibition as provided in this section. So

17 if this doesn't happen, then the material is

18 invalid. What has to happen? NOSB has to

19 review. 

20 But wait, it doesn't stop there. 

21 It clearly states, review as provided in this

22 section. There's no comma or break. So what
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1 does, as provided in this section, mean? OFPA

2 is made up of sections. The Sunset Provision

3 is a small subpart of Section 6517 titled,

4 National List.

5 Other parts of the National List

6 section include procedures for establishing

7 the National List. Those procedures include,

8 among others, the no addition standard,

9 rulemaking requirements for amendments to the

10 National List, and a mandate that the National

11 List be based upon the NOSB's proposed or

12 amended National List. 

13 In other words, the procedures and

14 standards described for putting a material on

15 the list are the same as what the NOSB should

16 use to review a material under the Sunset

17 Provision. NOSB, remember, every word has a

18 meaning and has to be put in the context of

19 the whole statute. 

20 When the provision references

21 NOSB, it is thus automatic that the section

22 that governs the NOSB, 6518, governs it in
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1 this context as well. This includes, among

2 others, the decisive 2/3 majority vote and the

3 mandatory material review criteria.

4 Next section, within five years of

5 such exemption or prohibition being adopted or

6 reviewed. The review has to happen every five

7 years. Next, and, and means that you have to

8 complete both of the conditions to make a

9 material valid again. 

10 So NOSB review as provided in the

11 National List section, and next part, the

12 secretary has renewed such exemption or

13 prohibition. The choice to make is to renew,

14 only option, no remove option. 

15 So what does the secretary do if

16 he wants to take a material off the list? 

17 Answer: nothing. By default, the material

18 isn't valid without a decision to renew. 

19 It also follows that if the

20 procedures of establishing the National List

21 are what define the NOSB's review, the

22 consistent, decisive vote on which the
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1 secretary can base his decision is one to

2 renew.

3 Putting it all together, no

4 material on the National List is valid unless

5 the NOSB reviews that material in the same way

6 it did when it decided to include it on the

7 National List within five years of the

8 material's inclusion or renewal at Sunset, and

9 the Secretary decides to include the material

10 on the list again.

11 These are the plain elements that

12 must be part of the Sunset Review standards. 

13 Regulations can provide more detail and

14 insight into how to carry out a statute, but

15 cannot rewrite the plain meaning of the law.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right, I

17 wave my wand. Thank you. Are there questions

18 or comments? Colehour?

19 MR. BONDERA: Thank you, Amy. How

20 do I say this? Because I think what you

21 presented is very important to us, but what

22 should we do? I mean, that's where I'm left
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1 with it.

2 MS. SIMPSON: No, and I understand

3 that the NOSB does not make regulations. But,

4 I think that there has been some confusion in

5 what these interpretations were, and I wanted

6 to present that this is the clear and plain

7 meaning that's in the provisions. 

8 And the Sunset notice rule that

9 was put out in September of 2013 does not

10 follow these plain meanings. And I don't

11 think that there's been a unified voice from

12 the board asking the NOP to revoke that and

13 put out something that does follow this clear

14 mandate.

15 I understand there's things that

16 can be improved upon, but it needs to meet

17 these plain meaning standards. And as it is

18 right now, it does not. So I think that the

19 board really just needs to make their voice

20 heard and not just keep plowing forward on

21 this.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Anything else?
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1 MS. SIMPSON: Thank you.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other

3 questions? No, okay. Thank you very much,

4 Amy. We next have Demetria Stephens followed

5 by Carl Lenore.

6 MS. STEPHENS: Hello, my name is

7 Demetria Stephens. I'm a fifth-generation

8 farmer from northwest Kansas, and the

9 Secretary of the Organic Crop Improvement

10 Association. It's a farmer-owned, not for

11 profit certifier, and mostly made up of

12 producers, certifying more than 9,000 people. 

13 That includes processors, handlers and the

14 like. 

15 I'm one of those producers on a

16 farm that has been certified organic for 20 of

17 OCI's more than 30 years in operation. And

18 it's a mischaracterization to say that

19 operations like my own are intimidated to

20 comment at meetings such as this. 

21 OCI's national organic program

22 certified members rely on the judgment of the
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1 National Organic Standards Board to represent

2 their interests when they cannot comment

3 during NOSB meetings themselves. And open

4 dialogue has been one of the strengths of

5 organic between people who grow food and those

6 with an interest in where and how their food

7 is produced.

8 From OCI's perspective, consumer

9 interest in food transparency is a trend that

10 will continue to intensify and grow as

11 evidenced over the last 20 years of

12 legislative and regulatory activity, and

13 culminating in the efforts to label food with

14 genetically engineered ingredients, along with

15 the strong growth of the organic share in the

16 retail sector.

17 There are many areas where

18 strengthening and clarification of the NOP

19 rule are critical. And in general, we support

20 the NOSB's efforts to thoroughly analyze

21 changes to the NOP rule with independent

22 technical reviews when necessary.
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1 Earlier this year, our

2 international board of directors submitted a

3 letter to the NOP and Agriculture Secretary

4 Tom Vilsack, regarding the certification of

5 hydroponic production. 

6 This is an example of NOP in

7 action on NOSB's recommendations, and it

8 undermines the process established in the

9 Organic Food Production Act of 1990. Such a

10 process must continue after meetings like this

11 end, and it will as consumers and farmers keep

12 talking about what gives products integrity. 

13 So from my own perspective as a

14 family farmer, we want the NOSB to feel

15 empowered to do what's necessary under the

16 OFPA. And we can answer questions that you

17 may have as a certifier, but also we have

18 members in our organization that are very

19 opinionated, and I'm sure if you called on

20 them, they would be willing to give

21 suggestions. So, thank you. 

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 
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1 Good comments. Questions, comments? Francis?

2 MR. THICKE: Thank you, Amy. Can

3 you tell us a little more about your thinking

4 about hydroponics? It wasn't real clear.

5 MS. STEPHENS: So OCI's board's

6 perspective has been that the organic -- the

7 foundation of organics has been based on a

8 soil production system. And I can give you a

9 copy of the letter that we sent to Tom Vilsack

10 and the NOP, but that's the gist of it.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: My microphone's

12 not working. Any other questions? Thank you

13 very much.

14 MS. STEPHENS: Thank you.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Next speaker --

16 my microphone -- Demetria Stephens -- oh,

17 sorry, I mean, Carl Lenore followed by Allison

18 Murphy. No? Okay, the next person on the

19 list here is Joan Levine. Are you here? 

20 Are these people deserting us

21 already? The party hasn't started. Oh, we've

22 got Joan, right? Is that Joan? No, oh, who
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1 do I have? All right, now I have two people. 

2 Help me understand who's --

3 MS. MURPHY: Allison Murphy.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: You're Allison,

5 all right. So, we'll have -- Allison will

6 present then. No? How are you going to do

7 it? No, you're going to go first? And so,

8 you are?

9 MS. LEVIN: My name is Joan

10 Levine.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Joan, hi, thank

12 you.

13 MS. LEVIN: Hi, my name is Joan

14 Levine, and I'm a consumer and a retired

15 public health attorney, and a proud Cornucopia

16 Institute member from Chicago, Illinois. And

17 I'd like to stress that I'm here today as a

18 volunteer citizen lobbyist. 

19 I've been involved with organic

20 foods ever since J.I. Rodale first popularized

21 the term in the United States right after

22 World War II, and long before USDA involvement
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1 in setting standards. 

2 And while I'm delighted to see

3 major food corporations' growing interest in

4 producing foods bearing the organic label, I'm

5 concerned lest organic standards be

6 compromised to accommodate this burgeoning

7 interest, and that's why I'm here today. 

8 I believe the Sunset rules are

9 sensible ones that allow for reevaluation as

10 our knowledge grows, and I hope you will agree

11 that we must place public health and safety

12 first in making these determinations.

13 I will comment on five of the

14 handling subcommittee 2016 Sunset reviews

15 before you, the boiler chemicals,

16 octadecylamine, diaminoethanol, and

17 cyclohexylamine, as well as two processed food

18 ingredients, sodium acid pyrophosphate and

19 tetrasodium pyrophosphate.

20 The boiler chemicals fail all

21 three of the Organic Food Production Act

22 criteria. They are clear candidates for
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1 Sunsetting. Not a single entity wrote in

2 support of relisting these materials.

3 We believe a safer alternative,

4 ammonium hydroxide, which was petitioned in

5 2012, may well be a better choice. However,

6 a new technical review must be conducted.

7 The 2001 Technical Advisory Panel

8 review is woefully out of date, and doesn't

9 even mention ammonium hydroxide as a

10 potentially safer alternative. We recommend

11 delisting these three toxic ammines and

12 replacing them with ammonium hydroxide as a

13 boiler additive.

14 This might be the best alternative

15 to maintain boiler health, while minimizing

16 the impact to human and environmental health. 

17 Sodium acid pyrophosphate or SAPP, is a

18 leavening agent used in a variety of baked

19 goods, approved in 2006 for the National List.

20 This material can hardly be

21 considered essential despite what some

22 industrial bakers may say, because natural
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1 leavening, commercial yeast and sodium

2 bicarbonate will do the job.

3 Only one food processor wrote in

4 support of this material, which also brings in

5 to question its essentiality. Also, the

6 manufacturing of SAPP produces phosphoric acid

7 waste. So it may fail the effects on

8 environment criteria in the OFPA.

9 Since the handling subcommittee

10 did not complete a checklist on this material,

11 we are not operating with full information.

12 Therefore, The Cornucopia Institute cannot

13 support the relisting of this material at this

14 time.

15 Tetrasodium pyrophosphate, TSPP,

16 is a dough conditioner for imitation meat

17 products added to the National List in 2006. 

18 In the first technical review conducted in

19 2002, two of the three expert reviewers

20 recommended that TSPP not be added to the

21 list, yet bewilderingly it was approved by the

22 full board.
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1 The latest limited scope technical

2 review demonstrates that there are many

3 alternatives to this substance such as fish,

4 soy, pea, milk, and fungal-based ingredients. 

5 Indeed, Cornucopia staff did not find a single

6 organic meat analogue product with TSPP on the

7 ingredient lists when we did an internet scan

8 of commercially available products. 

9 Not a single food processor wrote

10 in support of this material being relisted. 

11 Therefore, it appears to fail the essentiality

12 criteria and should be removed from the

13 National List.

14 Thank you for allowing me to

15 present this testimony. If you have

16 questions, I encourage you to speak with one

17 of Cornucopia's scientific policy staff

18 advisors present at the meeting. And I thank

19 you so much.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

21 much. Our next speaker is Allison Murphy.

22 MS. MURPHY: Hi, as you said, my
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1 name is Allison Murphy, and I'm the

2 Legislative Director at the Alliance for

3 Natural Health USA. ANH is a nonprofit,

4 membership-based organization consisting of

5 healthcare practitioners, food and supplement

6 companies, and over 350,000 consumers. 

7 Our members are passionate about

8 access to high quality organic products, and

9 we support the NOSB action that promotes an

10 honest, responsible, and transparent organic

11 production system.

12 ANH strongly opposes any efforts

13 to dilute organic standards, and we hope the

14 NOSB will continue to listen to the voices of

15 consumers and producers who want to protect

16 access to true organic products.

17 ANH commends the board's efforts

18 to strengthen excluded methods terminology. 

19 As a consumer advocate, we repeatedly hear

20 from our members about consumers' desire to

21 avoid genetically modified food products.

22 Eliminating confusion in the
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1 definition will improve consistency in the

2 quality of organic production, and increase

3 consumer confidence that certified organic

4 foods do not contain genetically engineered

5 components.

6 ANH strongly supports a

7 prohibition on BPA in packaging material used

8 for organic foods, and we agree with the

9 handling subcommittee's assessment that

10 further research on suitable alternatives is

11 necessary.

12 However, we hope this research is

13 not limited to suitable alternatives for the

14 lining of cans, but instead encompasses

15 broader potential improvements for food

16 packaging in general.

17 ANH also supports the removal of

18 non-organic ingredients from organic food

19 production. However, as others have stated as

20 well, we are very concerned about the changes

21 made to Sunset consideration.

22 Keeping a non-organic ingredient
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1 on the National List should mandate strict

2 scrutiny, high barriers and careful

3 consideration. The changes to Sunset

4 consideration fly in the face of OFPA and

5 diminish the board's authority.

6 We hope the board will stand up

7 for its authority when possible, and share

8 concerns expressed at this meeting with the

9 NOP, the USDA and others.

10 Laws allowing synthetic

11 ingredients in organic food production should

12 be construed in the narrowest sense, and

13 exceptions should not be made merely to make

14 organic certification easier to obtain.

15 The organic industry should be

16 called to rise to the standards of that label. 

17 Standards should not be brought down to meet

18 industry.

19 Finally, it's important to organic

20 consumers that GMO exposure is limited,

21 including GM vaccines. We ask the NOSB to

22 work to gather the necessary information and
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1 formulate standards for excluded vaccines.

2 GM vaccines should not be part of

3 approved organic production, and it's

4 imperative that the NOSB act on this issue in

5 a timely manner to protect consumers.

6 Organic certification is often the

7 main indicator that consumers use to

8 distinguish between healthy, sustainable foods

9 and foods containing synthetics or are

10 produced using genetic engineering.

11 It's for this reason that we

12 continue to strongly encourage the NOSB to

13 perpetuate the highest standards for certified

14 organics, and to answer consumer demand for

15 truly organic products in an honest,

16 transparent and responsible way. 

17 Thank you for your time and the

18 opportunity to participate at this meeting.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

20 much. Questions, comments from the board? 

21 Thank you. And I'm not doing my job very well

22 here. I'm not doing two people in a row. Let
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1 me try again. The next person to speak is

2 Robin Migalla followed by Paige Tomaselli.

3 MS. MIGALLA: Hello, my name is

4 Robin Migalla, and I'm a consumer from Elgin,

5 Illinois. I'm a member of the Cornucopia

6 Institute, and I'm here today as a citizen

7 lobbyist. I have volunteered to help present

8 testimony because I want to ensure the

9 integrity of organic food.

10 I grew up under the tyranny of

11 chronic illness, but discovered that organic

12 nutrient-dense food is the cornerstone of

13 health. I feel so fortunate that today local,

14 sustainably produced, nutrient-dense foods can

15 be found in nearly every grocery store, and I

16 can go directly to the farm for what isn't yet

17 available on the grocer's shelves.

18 This is a wonderful trend, and I

19 possess robust health today as a result. It

20 is so vitally important to me that these foods

21 remain as safe and wholesome as I have come to

22 expect. I rely on the USDA organic label as
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1 a reassurance of that safety. 

2 I'm here today to add my voice to

3 others who want to preserve that reassurance. 

4 I will comment on the four handling

5 subcommittee 2015 Sunset reviews before you,

6 gellan and tragacanth gums, as well as Marsala

7 and sherry cooking wines.

8 The Cornucopia Institute agrees

9 with the handling subcommittee motions to

10 delist Marsala and sherry from the National

11 List of non-organic substances. 

12 Similar ingredients are available

13 in organic form, and there is little, if any,

14 demand for these ingredients by organic

15 processors.

16 Based on Cornucopia's interview

17 with the original petitioner, they are no

18 longer using these ingredients in their

19 products. Not a single entity wrote in

20 support of relisting these cooking wines.

21 However, we disagree with the

22 subcommittee's motion to retain gellan gum and
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1 tragacanth gum on the National List for the

2 following reasons. 

3 The gellan gum technical review is

4 nearly ten years old and is not thorough. 

5 Tragacanth gum never had a technical review to

6 adequately evaluate this substance before it

7 was approved, and it still does not have one.

8 Gellan gum is a highly processed

9 synthetic material with isopropyl alcohol

10 residues up to three-quarters of a percent. 

11 Isopropyl alcohol is a processing aid

12 prohibited in organics. 

13 When the original petitioner asked

14 for this substance to be listed, they

15 described it as a non-organic, synthetic

16 substance, yet the word synthetic has been

17 removed from the listing. It is a synthetic

18 substance and should be reviewed as one.

19 Tragacanth gum fails the

20 essentiality criteria of the OFPA because very

21 few organic processors are using this material

22 due to limited supply. Instead, most
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1 processors are using more plentiful gum arabic

2 which is available in organic form.

3 The Cornucopia Institute requests

4 that a new technical review be performed for

5 every material that is up for Sunset review. 

6 Further, we request that the subcommittee

7 discussions on proposals be based on

8 information in the new TRs. 

9 It is our opinion these substances

10 cannot be properly evaluated without this

11 critical information. It is negligent to

12 continue to allow a non-organic substance to

13 be used for our food without the best and

14 latest information as possible.

15 We understand these things take

16 time, but we have five years between each

17 Sunset review. That is enough time to get

18 updated technical reviews of every substance.

19 In conclusion, please delist

20 Marsala and sherry cooking wines because they

21 are not essential with similar organic

22 alternatives existing to replace them. 
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1 Please delist or table for further

2 consideration gellan gum because it is a

3 synthetic and has a very poor, out-of-date

4 technical review. And delist tragacanth gum

5 because it is nonessential and lacks any

6 technical review whatsoever.

7 Thank you for allowing me to

8 present testimony. If you have questions,

9 please speak with one of Cornucopia's

10 scientific policy staff members present at the

11 meeting.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

13 much for your comments.

14 MS. MIGALLA: Thank you.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

16 speaker is Paige Tomaselli to be followed by

17 Kelly Shea.

18 MS. TOMASELLI: All right, good

19 morning. My name is Paige Tomaselli, and I'm

20 a Senior Attorney at The Center for Food

21 Safety. 

22 Methionine was a hot topic at the
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1 April meeting in San Antonio. One of the main

2 concerns raised by producers was that without

3 adequate methionine, chickens would turn to

4 cannibalism. 

5 We had never heard this argument

6 about methionine, and knowing that animal

7 welfare regulations are on the NOP's agenda,

8 Center for Food Safety undertook to

9 investigate the link between methionine and

10 animal welfare. 

11 In sum, we uncovered three main

12 findings. First, crowded and unhealthy

13 poultry living conditions and limited access

14 to the outdoors to scratch, peck and engage in

15 other natural behaviors is, in fact, what

16 leads to aggressive behavior. 

17 A telling example is the manner in

18 which birds access their feed. When poultry

19 are allowed to express natural foraging

20 behavior such as pecking and scratching at the

21 ground to obtain grubs, earthworms, and

22 greens, cannibalism and feather pecking
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1 decreases. 

2 On the other hand, when poultry

3 are given feed that can be consumed rapidly

4 and satiate birds quickly, it can actually

5 stimulate feather pecking because the birds

6 are not sufficiently exercising their pecking

7 behavior.

8 Second, the differences in poultry

9 performance are not as pronounced as industry

10 claims. Researchers at the UK Organic

11 Research Center compared four different

12 poultry diets, only one of which included

13 synthetic methionine. 

14 They have found that birds fed the

15 100 percent organic diet did not have

16 significant differences in weight or mortality

17 compared to those fed synthetic diets or diets

18 with synthetic inputs.

19 In fact, laying hens fed 100

20 percent organic diets had higher egg output

21 compared to those fed a synthetic diet.

22 Third, we looked at the viable
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1 alternatives that support chickens' natural

2 omnivorous diet. The most promising area of

3 research to alternative sources of essential

4 amino acids for poultry rearing focuses on

5 insect species as a suitable protein source.

6 High methionine insects such as

7 fly maggots from black soldier flies and house

8 flies, for example, can be reared on organic

9 poultry manure and organic feed stocks, such

10 as waste materials from organic food

11 processing plants, that can be fed 100 percent

12 organic diet and then used for organic

13 poultry.

14 Many board members were also

15 concerned about methionine's seemingly endless

16 ride on the National List. In fact,

17 methionine has become the poster child for a

18 failed Sunset process, and the new Sunset

19 policy is not going to make it any easier to

20 come up with a solution to replace methionine

21 with a natural source. In fact, it may have

22 the opposite effect of inhibiting the
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1 development of non-synthetic alternatives. 

2 In contrast to the plain language

3 of OFPA, the new NOP policy presumes that

4 substances will remain on the list, further

5 hindering the ability of NOSB to remove

6 methionine and any other substances from the

7 list, and negating OFPA's continuous

8 improvement mandate.

9 Now onto excluded methods and GMO

10 vaccines. CFS supports the efforts to further

11 clarify and interpret the NOP definition of

12 excluded methods. 

13 CFS believes that the current

14 definition of excluded methods is strong, and

15 should be used as it was intended as a

16 benchmark against which new and emerging

17 technologies are weighed. 

18 We agree that the clarification

19 should come through guidance developed by NOSB

20 with help from the organic community in order

21 to establish a clear understanding of those

22 techniques that are acceptable in organic
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1 production and those that are not. 

2 The organic community must agree

3 upon what exactly it is about a method or

4 technique that is objectionable in the organic

5 context.

6 We appreciate the head's up on

7 this --- that this issue will be on the agenda

8 for spring of 2015, and CFS will endeavor to

9 provide as much additional information as

10 possible before that time.

11 It is absolutely imperative that

12 NOSB create a system of classifying vaccines

13 so that animal producers are able to identify

14 which vaccines are GMO and which vaccines are

15 not. 

16 Our guidance on excluded --- once

17 our guidance on excluded methods is refined,

18 the list of GMO vaccines can be refined as

19 well.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

21 MS. TOMASELLI: Thank you.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Questions? 
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1 Francis?

2 MR. THICKE: Thank you, Paige. 

3 I'm curious about your case study and the

4 interesting finding, apparently, that I'd like

5 to see it, that it's more behavior that causes

6 the rapid eating and pecking. 

7 And in your case study, did the

8 organic diet have what's considered adequate

9 methionine, or what --- as much as a synthetic

10 methionine diet? Do you remember, or can you

11 get us a copy of that study?

12 MS. TOMASELLI: I can definitely

13 get you a copy of the study. I have the

14 citation here. Well, not to waste time, I'll

15 provide the citation right after this. 

16 But as far as I understand, the

17 levels were similar to the synthetic

18 methionine levels, the levels of methionine in

19 the 100 percent organic diet. But the birds

20 do grow, you know, slower. 

21 It's basically, it's about

22 performance standards and now welfare, so it
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1 does take longer for the animals to produce

2 meat and/or eggs, but not significantly

3 longer.

4 So it doesn't really hinder the

5 health of the birds, but they might grow

6 slower.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jay?

8 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you, Paige. I

9 had a question on methionine as well regarding

10 the motion at the last board meeting on the

11 five-year expiration date or, you know, a

12 provision within the annotation, or within the

13 listing of methionine, methionine's annotation

14 that would require the board to review the

15 material on a vote to relist after a five-year

16 period.

17 Some of the issues you're citing

18 are somewhat experimental. I heard at the

19 last meeting that the, you know, the feeding

20 of insects and so forth may not be approved,

21 the maggots by FDA. I don't know if we

22 verified that or not. Then you mentioned
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1 continuous improvements. 

2 So I'm wondering from a legal

3 perspective the value of this board

4 identifying materials like methionine that

5 are, you know, raise certain questions about

6 essentiality, adverse impacts in the diet,

7 what have you, whether this board should be

8 considering expiration dates, and what impact

9 that has on the actual process of review.

10 MS. TOMASELLI: Okay.

11 MR. FELDMAN: And juxtapose that

12 with the Sunset process and, you know, how

13 that would work ---

14 MS. TOMASELLI: Right.

15 MR. FELDMAN: -- just so people

16 understand.

17 MS. TOMASELLI: Well, I just - I

18 think to start I would say that a firm

19 expiration date is basically necessary to

20 light a fire under industry to find a suitable

21 alternative. 

22 And so, if there is a firm
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1 expiration date in the provision, or sorry,

2 you know, by the board, then you would have,

3 you know, an end date for by which you'd have

4 to find a suitable alternative.

5 As far as the alternatives that we

6 are promoting, we did do some research into

7 whether or not insects, for instance, are FDA

8 approved. And in fact, soldier fly maggots

9 can be used according to FDA, and they do not

10 have to go through any type of rigorous

11 approval. 

12 Some producers are going through

13 the grass process because they want to cover

14 all of their bases, but FDA basically said

15 that they would just need to go through the

16 AAFCO certification process to cover, you

17 know, to cover their bases entirely.

18 So, but we believe that, you know,

19 innovation is spurred by, you know, by a

20 significant end date in the process, and that

21 the Sunset --- the Sunset process is meant, it

22 was created to do that, to give an end, you
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1 know, an end to a limited time frame by which

2 a substance can be utilized in the short term.

3 So, we believe that that's

4 critical to getting methionine off the list

5 and for other substances as well.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

7 questions? 

8 DR. WALKER: One quick question. 

9 My question to you is, is synthetic

10 methionine, to you, an animal welfare issue,

11 yes or no, or ---

12 MS. TOMASELLI: Just a yes or no

13 question?

14 DR. WALKER: You can explain. You

15 can also explain if you wish.

16 MS. TOMASELLI: Yes, yes, no. 

17 From our research we found that synthetic

18 methionine is --- it's about performance and

19 it's not about welfare. I think I alluded to

20 this before. 

21 You know, we believe that animal

22 welfare is about the conditions in which
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1 animals are raised, and that crowded,

2 unhealthy living conditions, they create the

3 situation which causes cannibalism. Boredom

4 creates a situation which causes cannibalism.

5 But in fact, synthetic methionine,

6 the levels that the producers are looking at

7 attain, that's just for peak performance. 

8 That's so that they can get their broilers out

9 the door in six weeks, or they can make the

10 number of eggs that they're looking hits their

11 target.

12 And so, from our perspective, it's

13 not an animal welfare issue but a performance

14 issue.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

16 much.

17 MS. TOMASELLI: Thank you.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

19 speaker is Kelly Shea following by Alison

20 Leathers.

21 MS. SHEA: Good morning. I want

22 to thank Jay, John Foster, Wendy, Joe Dickson
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1 for your service on the board. I was sitting

2 there thinking between the four of you, you've

3 given 20 years of service to the organic

4 community, so thank you for that. No, it's a

5 lot when you amalgamate it.

6 And then I want to welcome Lisa de

7 Lima, Tom Chapman, Ashley Swaffer and Paula

8 Daniels to the board, and let them know that

9 they have very, very big shoes to fill.

10 I want to say thank you to the

11 USDA cross functional team for traveling here

12 to Louisville to participate with the organic

13 businesses here. And a special thanks to the

14 NOP for their tireless work. 

15 Unlike many Washington

16 bureaucrats, they do not go home at 4:30. And

17 to the NOP for dedicating almost half a

18 million dollars towards future tap reviews,

19 thank you for that.

20 I had the incredible opportunity

21 recently to break bread with the board of

22 IOIA, the International Organic Inspectors
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1 Association. What a dedicated crew of people. 

2 We would all --- all of us that

3 are certified entities and retailers of

4 organic products, benefit from well-trained

5 inspectors trained by IOIA.

6 Not all inspectors have the same

7 level of competency. And in part, that is due

8 to lack of consistent training. Inspectors

9 are a crucial linchpin in organic integrity. 

10 We need more consistency, more

11 training, and I would dare say more

12 recognition, whether it's in financial

13 compensation to inspectors, but more

14 recognition of the value of good, solid

15 inspections to the integrity of the organic

16 seal.

17 And lastly, I want to echo the

18 very well done comments by Beth Unger of CROPP

19 Cooperative Organic Valley regarding gellan

20 gum. These materials for processing at a

21 value market for farmer's raw goods. 

22 You know, everyone loves a farmer,
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1 and what the farming community brings to our

2 nation's landscape. But without non-GMO, non3 synthetic materials such as gellan gum that

4 are produced and disposed of in a manner that

5 does not cause animal, environmental, or human

6 health harm, the markets for organic farmers'

7 products will be curtailed. Thank you very

8 much.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

10 Kelly. Questions? Do we have Alison

11 Leathers? Yes, and then the next speaker will

12 be Jessica Walden.

13 MS. LEATHERS: Hello, my name is

14 Alison Leathers, and I'm a graduate research

15 assistant from Nashville, Tennessee. I'm a

16 member of the Cornucopia Institute, and I'm

17 here today as a citizen lobbyist. I have

18 volunteered to help present testimony because

19 I want to ensure the integrity of organic food

20 and organic agriculture.

21 I developed my passion for growing

22 plants and conserving our land on my family's
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1 sheep farm in the bluff country of

2 southeastern Minnesota. I'm a proud graduate

3 of the University of Minnesota's horticulture

4 program, and I'm currently pursuing my

5 master's degree in agricultural education at

6 Tennessee State University. My career goal is

7 to serve my community as an extension agent

8 and a third generation farmer.

9 I would like to comment on the

10 soil conservation discussion document put

11 forth by the compliance, accreditation, and

12 certification subcommittee. This is an

13 important subject because as we can all agree,

14 healthy soil is the foundation or organic

15 agriculture.

16 There are two main ways that

17 organic certifiers work to ensure that organic

18 producers are protecting their soil resources. 

19 The first is the written organic system plan

20 that includes sections describing how the

21 producer intends to protect or enhance soil

22 and water quality. 
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1 The second is the annual

2 inspection in which certification staff visits

3 the operation to verify that the farm is

4 properly implementing the activities described

5 in their OSP.

6 There are clearly flaws with the

7 current system. First, some OSPs say very

8 little about what kind of soil and water

9 conservation practices are going to be

10 implemented. 

11 One farm might say that they are

12 going to cover crop, use compost, use low till

13 practices, and plant on contours. Another

14 neighboring farm with similar soils may just

15 say they're going to use regular applications

16 of fish emulsion. 

17 Who is doing enough? What will

18 the certifier say about this? The other flaw

19 is the annual inspection is only a brief

20 snapshot in time. 

21 If the inspection happens in

22 summer, they may not see severe soil erosion
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1 that happens later in the fall with the rains. 

2 A dairy inspection in the summer may not

3 observe the farmer is applying excessive

4 quantities of raw manure on top of frozen

5 ground in the winter. How would an inspector

6 know what happens the rest of the year when

7 they only see the farm on one day?

8 In general, the organic system

9 plans need to be detailed about the full suite

10 of natural resources conservation practices

11 that are utilized year-round on a farm or

12 ranch.

13 Livestock producers should

14 describe their year-round grazing plan. Crop

15 producers should describe their year-round

16 cropping plan. All confined animal feeding

17 operations and dairy should describe their

18 year-round manure management plans.

19 Certification staff need much more

20 training to understand ecological land

21 management, soil quality indicators, and

22 reading the landscape for their on site
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1 inspection. They must be able to read into

2 the OSP, and understand what is going on, and

3 what might be missing from the plan.

4 Over the years, inspections should

5 take place during different seasons so

6 certification staff can see the operation in

7 different seasons. 

8 Any producer who has received a

9 notice of violation of a state or federal

10 environmental law should immediately be

11 required to submit an updated OSP addendum on

12 how they will rectify the situation, including

13 a timeline.

14 Certifiers should be required to

15 followup with corrective action. Likewise,

16 any certifier that has multiple producers with

17 violations should have their own accreditation

18 reevaluated.

19 Some of these concepts will not

20 require additional paperwork on the part of

21 the farmer because existing conservation and

22 manure management plans can be included as
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1 addendums to the OSP.

2 These are just a few ideas we hope

3 you will consider seriously in order to

4 improve the natural resource conditions on

5 organic farms. Thank you for allowing me to

6 present testimony. If you have questions, I

7 encourage you to speak with one of

8 Cornucopia's scientific or policy staff

9 members present at the meeting.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thank

11 you very much. The next speaker is --- let's

12 see, where are we --- Jessica Walden, and that

13 will be followed by Troy Aykan.

14 MS. WALDEN: Hello, my name is

15 Jessica Walden, and I am a Senior Technical

16 Reviewer with QAI. I appreciate and commend

17 you all for the great work that you do. 

18 I know that Madam Chair wanted a

19 bit more humor at this meeting. I appreciate

20 the way that you opened the meeting yesterday. 

21 And while I'm going to talk about glycerin,

22 which, in itself, is not an inherently funny
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1 topic. 

2 I wanted to send a shout-out to

3 Jim Pierce for working the word constipation

4 into his comments. It was weird, but it made

5 me laugh too. Thank you, Jim.

6 So glycerin --- and also to get

7 your attention as well. The NOSB wanted to

8 know how the removal of synthetic forms of

9 glycerin would impact the production and use

10 of natural flavors that are allowed in organic

11 products. 

12 Currently, synthetic glycerin is allowed

13 in natural flavors only because it is on the

14 National List as an allowed synthetic. 

15 Glycerin is used in natural flavors but also

16 in organic bars, organic dietary supplements,

17 baked goods, personal care products, and other

18 products. 

19 QAI has 33 clients using glycerin

20 as an ingredient. We have 265 clients using

21 natural flavors, and 85 clients using organic

22 flavors.
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1 QAI reached out to individual

2 clients to get a sense of the forms that

3 either they were using directly, or the forms

4 of glycerin that their flavor suppliers were

5 using. 

6 In all cases, while our clients

7 had information on the compliance of glycerin

8 to the current annotation, which is the

9 production via hydrolysis of fats and oils,

10 they did not know what type of hydrolysis was

11 employed in the manufacturing process, e.g.,

12 alkali hydrolysis, which is the synthetic form

13 or enzymatic or steam splitting, which is the

14 agricultural forms. 

15 And they expressed concern that

16 they would have difficulty acquiring this

17 information or that there wouldn't be enough

18 agricultural forms of glycerin available.

19 QAI also spoke with FEMA, the

20 Flavor and Extract Manufacturer's Association

21 in the U.S., regarding the impact to the

22 natural flavor manufacturer's supplying to the
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1 organic handlers. 

2 And they indicated that they had

3 conducted a survey with their members on this

4 issue as well, and found that their flavor

5 manufacturers did not have solid data on how

6 the glycerin they were using was produced

7 because this information has never needed to

8 be provided in the past. 

9 They were concerned that removing

10 glycerin from 605 now would result in a

11 critical market shortage of available

12 agricultural glycerin, and they asked if the

13 industry could have more time to collect this

14 data and work on reformulation if necessary.

15 QAI does appreciate the comments

16 made by Gwendolyn Wyard from OTA yesterday and

17 the figures that were provided on the

18 availability of agricultural forms of

19 glycerin, which it does appear to be enough to

20 meet the needs of the industry.

21 If the NOSB does decide to vote on

22 the removal of glycerin from 605 and add it to
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1 606, QAI also supports the OTA's technical

2 clarification to the proposed annotation that

3 agricultural forms of glycerin include those

4 forms produced by biological and mechanical

5 physical methods.

6 And we also ask that consideration

7 be given to implementation time to allow the

8 switch over for the users of glycerin. Thank

9 you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

11 Questions? Well, there you go.

12 MS. WALDEN: Okay.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: It's all clear

14 now.

15 MS. WALDEN: All right, great.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. The

17 next speaker is Troy Aykan followed by Bill

18 Wolf.

19 MR. AYKAN: Good morning. My name

20 is Troy Aykan. I'm a food scientist and an

21 attorney with the Hain Celestial Group. I

22 also teach courses in food laws and
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1 regulations at Cal Poly and Chapman

2 Universities, and Chapman University School of

3 Law.

4 Today, I will be commenting on

5 glycerin. We generally support the detailed

6 comments submitted by Gwendolyn of the Organic

7 Trade Association. There is a significant

8 concern that the organic glycerin is not

9 available in sufficient quantity for the needs

10 of organic food manufacturers.

11 We therefore support the motion to

12 move glycerin from 605(b) to 606. This would

13 allow the use of non-organic glycerin if

14 organic glycerin is not commercially available

15 in sufficient quantity.

16 We also support OTA's suggested

17 revision to the classification motion to read,

18 motion to classify glycerin as agricultural

19 when derived from agricultural source material

20 and processed using biological, or mechanical,

21 or physical methods described under section

22 205, 270 subsection A.
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1 It is important to include the

2 various nonsynthetic agricultural forms of

3 glycerin that are used in foods and flavors.

4 Finally, it's unclear if listing

5 glycerin on 606 would impact the glycerin that

6 is used in natural flavors. We trust that the

7 board will keep this in mind when addressing

8 the listing of natural flavors on 605 during

9 Sunset review when considering any petitions

10 related to natural flavors.

11 Going forward, we believe that

12 non-organic glycerin must continue to be

13 allowed in non-organic flavors that are used

14 in certified organic products. Thank you. 

15 Any questions?

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

17 Question, Francis?

18 MR. THICKE: Thank you, Troy. Do

19 you know if Hain Celestial does use any

20 organic glycerin now, or has looked to source

21 organic glycerin?

22 MR. AYKAN: Yes, we have so many
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1 different applications so I cannot say that,

2 you know, we all have switched, but we are in

3 constant contact with our suppliers that sells

4 us either organic flavor or natural flavor. 

5 If we are looking at the natural

6 flavor part, right now, they might have ---

7 you said organic glycerin, right? Yes, right

8 now, it's not likely that --- most flavors do

9 not contain organic glycerin. 

10 And then there is also --- you

11 also have the organic glycerin --- I mean, I'm

12 sorry, organic natural flavor that might

13 contain non-organic glycerin because it's

14 listed in 606 currently. So right now there's

15 no incentive or need for the flavor houses to

16 use organic glycerin in organic flavors.

17 But as the changes are made, you

18 know, this might change obviously. But we

19 have been in contact with the producers. And

20 in fact, if you guys went over some of the

21 comments, one particularly I believe was from

22 FEMA. 
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1 They are still asking that

2 glycerin should be moved from 605b -- I mean,

3 glycerin should be moved to 606, but there

4 should still be a 605b version in case, you

5 know, the other parts, their agricultural

6 glycerin is not commercial available. So that

7 was in the comments. 

8 We, in my comments, I picked to

9 follow OTA's suggestion, and hoping that the

10 natural flavor houses in the future might be

11 able to phase into that, but it's not a simple

12 task as I understand. 

13 And what I'm saying here is that

14 we're not discussing natural flavors now, but

15 when we do, we should take into consideration

16 as to how much organic glycerin is available

17 and all that stuff. 

18 So I'm sure that that will be

19 debated and discussed when the natural flavors

20 come up for Sunset, I believe, in 2016 if I'm

21 not mistaken.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thank
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1 you very much.

2 MR. AYKAN: You're welcome.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

4 speaker is Bill Wolf followed by Allyson

5 Kelly.

6 MR. WOLF: First, I'd really like

7 to thank the four board members who have put

8 in incredible time and are leaving, and this

9 is your last meeting. And now I'd like to

10 address the board on two topics.

11 I'm Bill Wolf, and I'm -- I've

12 been active in the organic community for 43

13 years as an organic farmer, handler,

14 consultant, and input supplier, and attending

15 NOSB meetings for 22 years since the very

16 first meeting.

17 I'd like to talk about two things,

18 one on behalf of a Wolf DiMatteo client,

19 Draco, who submitted the petition to remove

20 glycerin from the National List but was not

21 able to attend the meeting today, and second,

22 I have a minor comment about the National
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1 List.

2 Draco Natural Products supports

3 both of the listing motions recommended by the

4 handling subcommittee to remove glycerin from

5 605 and to list glycerin on 606. This will

6 allow commercial availability to apply if

7 there is not an adequate supply of organic

8 glycerin. 

9 This addresses the concerns about

10 the availability of organic glycerin. I will

11 say that the process will fill in the gap over

12 the next couple of years while the rule is

13 implemented. 

14 We support the use of organic

15 ingredients, but recognize that the allowance

16 for commercial availability will encourage

17 continued growth of the entire organic product

18 sector.

19 The handling committee also

20 addressed the classification of glycerin as

21 agricultural or non-agricultural, and offers

22 the conclusion that glycerin produced by
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1 microbial fermentation is agricultural. 

2 This is a good example of

3 agricultural glycerin, but it is technically

4 incomplete, and could be interpreted to mean

5 that only glycerin produced by microbial

6 fermentation is agricultural.

7 Glycerin produced using biological

8 or physical methods should also be classified

9 as agricultural. This would align with the

10 NOP's draft classification and materials

11 guidance issued in March of 2013.

12 It would also help address

13 concerns raised in public comment regarding

14 the use of glycerin in natural flavors and

15 made with organic products. 

16 Therefore, we suggest that

17 agricultural glycerin should include all

18 materials derived from agricultural source

19 materials and processed using biological, or

20 mechanical, or physical methods described

21 under 205, 270a. 

22 This is a technical, not a
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1 substantive clarification. The public is

2 fully aware of the proposed changes to the

3 National List.

4 Draco produces its glycerin

5 organically because it is the right thing to

6 do supporting organic farmers, increasing

7 organic acreage, and the amount of organic

8 ingredients in final products. 

9 Replacing organic -- replacing

10 synthetic glycerin with organic glycerin in

11 organic processed products supports the

12 principles of organic production and

13 continuous improvement.

14 Draco thanks the NOSB for your

15 dedication in the National Organic Program and

16 its role in advancing organic agriculture. 

17 Please support the removal of glycerin from

18 605 and place it on 606.

19 This is the third NOSB meeting and

20 public comment period where this petition is

21 being discussed. Please do not postpone this

22 decision. It takes months, if not years, for
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1 your decisions to be fully enforced by the

2 NOP.

3 Your decision now will give

4 manufacturers and ingredient suppliers the

5 transition time they need, and send a message

6 of commitment to continuous improvement.

7 Finally, we urge the NOP to

8 complete its work on the classification

9 materials guidance to avoid further confusion

10 and complexity in decisions on petitions.

11 Regarding the Sunset, I'd like to

12 make one comment. First, my mentor, Bucky

13 Fuller, repeatedly pointed out that the use of

14 the term Sunset was quite obsolete, an old

15 term from when we thought the earth was flat

16 over 500 years ago. 

17 He offered other terms like,

18 "morning sunclipse," and, "evening sunclipse,"

19 as the correct term. So I think we need a

20 little perspective on the conversation here. 

21 And second -- I'm done.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Finish your
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1 thought, Bill, please.

2 MR. WOLF: Thank you. Second -- I

3 guess I'll lose the t-shirt though.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

5 MR. WOLF: Oh, well. Second, I do

6 not believe that there was any intention that

7 the National List be a specific size, or be

8 specifically shortened over time. I think it

9 should only have things on it that are in line

10 with the principles of organic, but it does

11 not need to be shortened. 

12 There are way less non-organic

13 ingredients in organic foods today than in

14 2002 when the rule went into effect. We need

15 tools. Farmers need tools. Don't reduce our

16 toolbox. Thank you.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

18 Questions, comments? This is a quiet group

19 this morning. Good, all right, thank you,

20 Bill.

21 MR. WOLF: Sure.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next
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1 speaker is Allyson Kelly followed by Alexis

2 Baden-Mayer.

3 MS. KELLY: Good morning. My name

4 is Allyson Kelly. I'm the Senior Program

5 Manager for Organic Compliance with the Hain

6 Celestial Group, one of the largest producers

7 of organic products in the world.

8 We wish to strongly support the

9 relisting of malic acid on 205, 605a. Organic

10 foods and beverages utilize malic acid for

11 acid control and flavoring. It is an

12 ingredient in a number of organic products

13 including some of our snack products. 

14 Malic acid in stored seasoning

15 blends can help slow microbial growth at low

16 concentrations, while providing a smoothly

17 tart flavor that cannot be replicated by any

18 other ingredient on the National List.

19 Citric acid has similar qualities

20 for controlling acidity, but the astringency

21 and harsh taste are unacceptable for numerous

22 applications. Additionally, citric acid is
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1 too hygroscopic for many dry seasoning blends. 

2 Our sweet potato corn tortilla

3 chips contain malic acid. We have provided

4 samples on the table outside the door for you

5 to taste if you'd like. Maybe it's a little

6 early for chips, but maybe later.

7 L-malic acid is a nonsynthetic

8 product of fermentation, and has grass status

9 with the FDA. Malic acid also occurs

10 naturally in a variety of fruits and

11 vegetables. 

12 Organic food manufacturers utilize

13 malic acid to produce the safe and flavorful

14 foods that consumers of organic products

15 expect and enjoy. Malic acid should remain on

16 the National List.

17 We wish to thank the NOSB for

18 their service. We also want to thank Miles

19 McEvoy and the dedicated staff at NOP for

20 their hard work and efforts to support organic

21 foods in the United States. Thank you.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 
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1 Questions, Harold? Sorry, not -- Jay?

2 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. Thank

3 you for your comments. Can you share with us

4 any more detail on the fermentation process,

5 the feed stocks, and what goes into that?

6 MS. KELLY: Since I'm not the

7 ingredient -- I don't work really that closely

8 with the ingredient supplier, I don't have

9 that information handy, but I could probably

10 get that for you by the end of the day.

11 MR. FELDMAN: Okay, thanks.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other

13 questions? Thank you very much.

14 MS. KELLY: Thank you.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Next speaker is

16 Alexis Baden-Mayer followed by John Ashby.

17 MS. BADEN-MAYER: Hi, I'm Alexis

18 Baden-Mayer. I'm the Political Director of

19 the Organic Consumers Association. And I'm

20 here to ask you, the Citizen Oversight Board

21 created by the Organic Foods Production Act,

22 to claim your power to restore the Sunset
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1 process.

2 Normally, I would come to you to

3 deliver petitions from our members on various

4 decisions that you're going to make. For

5 instance, we collected over 12,000 signatures

6 and comments on a petition from our members

7 who took the time to tell you about Sunset

8 materials that they do not think should be

9 renewed. But there's really no point in me

10 bothering to do that at this time.

11 The Sunset Provision of the

12 Organic Foods Production Act has unlawfully

13 been suspended by the USDA National Organic

14 Program. Over 95,000 of our members have

15 signed a petition opposing the violation of

16 the law. 

17 That's more people than have ever

18 bothered to take action on any other single

19 issue related to organic standards that we

20 have brought before our members, and it's not

21 just us. Food Democracy Now and Cornucopia

22 Institute have inspired just as many of their
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1 members to act as well.

2 Amy Simpson of Beyond Pesticides

3 did an excellent job of explaining the ways in

4 which the NOP is violating OFPA, and the

5 authors of the act agree with her. The Sunset

6 policy chance is in conflict with both the

7 letter and the intent of the statute.

8 The policy chance turns the Sunset

9 Provision of OFPA on its head to create a

10 presumption that all synthetic materials on

11 the National List will be automatically

12 reviewed at the five-year Sunset mark, and to

13 establish a high hurdle, two-thirds vote to

14 remove the material from the list. 

15 This is a complete reversal of the

16 statutory and longstanding policy on the

17 burden of proof that has required a two-thirds

18 majority vote in order to renew a material on

19 the National List. The authors of the law

20 never wanted to see synthetic or non-organic

21 substances used in organic with weak support. 

22 Currently, every material on the
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1 National List got there with a two-thirds vote

2 as required by OFPA. The Sunset policy change

3 means that in the future, National List

4 materials could be renewed with the support of

5 only six members of the board. 

6 This is going to be terrible for

7 consumer confidence to know that the most

8 controversial ingredients are being used in

9 organic with the support of only a small

10 minority of organic stakeholders, probably the

11 stakeholders representing businesses that

12 profit from its use.

13 What should the NOSB do when the

14 NOP violates OFPA? Well, the most extreme

15 measure you could take would be to refuse to

16 review National List substances and allow them

17 to Sunset. The secretary might renew them

18 anyway, but that would be a clear violation of

19 OFPA that the courts would not uphold. 

20 The other thing you could do is to

21 negotiate. You can use that power that you

22 have over the Sunset process to make the USDA
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1 do the right thing. The USDA might reverse

2 course. They might leave Sunset alone, or

3 they could do what the authors of OFPA asked,

4 submit this substantive policy change to a

5 full notice and comment rulemaking.

6 And the other thing that you

7 should do is to insist that USDA limit its

8 proposal to future National List substances. 

9 Everything that's currently on the

10 list got there based on the assumption that

11 it's coming off in five years. When the NOSB

12 voted on these substances, they couldn't have

13 known that the Sunset process would be made

14 toothless. 

15 NOSB members have often justified

16 their votes by saying that the industry needs

17 time to move away from a synthetic substance,

18 and they have done so believing that future

19 renewals would be based on a vote of ten out

20 of 15 members of the board to review.

21 This is why we're the Organic

22 Consumers Association. We think USDA Organic
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1 has the greatest potential to be the very most

2 meaningful standard.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

4 much, Alexis. Questions, yes, Jay?

5 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you, Alexis,

6 for your comments. How does OCA know what

7 consumers think?

8 MS. BADEN-MAYER: Well, we're in

9 communication with about two million of them. 

10 That includes all of our social networks and

11 our email list. And like I said, this just

12 garnered so much attention from our members.

13 Usually, you know, compare what

14 we've got on current Sunset materials. We

15 usually collect around 12,000 signatures on a

16 petition related to a specific material in

17 organic. 

18 You know, we're also sending our

19 list information about dangerous GMOs, and

20 pesticides, and factory farms, antibiotics

21 used in agriculture, like really hot topics

22 that people hear about on the news, care about
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1 desperately. 

2 And then we also tell them about

3 egg white lysozyme, and normally these issues

4 don't strike a chord. The change in the

5 Sunset policy is such a horrible violation of

6 the law, and it just smacks of indecency. 

7 It's just so -- it's so different from

8 everything that's come before it. 

9 Consumers see that change as

10 really significant. It's not just quibbling

11 over one ingredient. It's changing the whole

12 process to make it -- it's just -- it's

13 meaningless for me to be here today to talk to

14 you about any of the Sunset materials. 

15 Our voice doesn't matter anymore,

16 and that's what our members are really

17 exercised about. That's why we had almost

18 100,000 people take action on this. That's

19 why Cornucopia and Food Democracy Now

20 collected the same number of actions from

21 their members. 

22 This is a really big deal. This
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1 is the biggest deal since the Congressional

2 changes to OFPA after the Harvey lawsuit which

3 was when I started my work on organic, and

4 this is when I'm going to end my work on

5 organic. 

6 I'm not going to come back to NOSB

7 meetings. I don't think that there's really

8 any opportunity for the work that I do on

9 organic to be meaningful at this point. So,

10 but we'll be here. 

11 Patrick Kerrigan is going to be

12 here. He's fresh. He's not as dispirited as

13 I am, and he's a nice guy. And I'm sure

14 you'll all enjoy his company. So I think

15 that, you know, we have hope like I said. 

16 I think this is -- organic has the

17 potential to be the most meaningful standard 

18 ever. It's because it's a democratic

19 standard. It's a public standard. It's a

20 standard of the people, by the people, for the

21 people. 

22 I mean, no other standard can
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1 compete. All of the other standards are

2 private standards. This is a public standard,

3 and it's a democratic standard, and that's why

4 it has the potential to be the best.

5 We're at a low point now, but I

6 think that, you know, Sunset was changed, and

7 it can be changed back.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

9 comments? Thank you for your passionate

10 speech, and I hope that you don't give up, but

11 be optimistic like so many of us are. Thank

12 you. The next speaker is John Ashby followed

13 by Thomas Harding.

14 MR. ASHBY: It's either

15 appropriate or ironic that I follow Alexis. 

16 I feel like I need one of two things. Either

17 I need Paul Harvey to come up here and say,

18 "And now it's time to hear the rest of the

19 story," either that or "Ave, Jean. Morituri

20 te salutant!"

21 I'm John Ashby, and I approve this

22 message although some of you may not. John,
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1 Joe, Jay, Wendy, thanks for your service, and

2 the rest of the board. Thanks for sending

3 them out with five years of growth. And may

4 it be so that the people who start next year,

5 when their five-year term is up, that they go

6 out with five years growth also.

7 I let somebody down. I want to

8 offer my personal apology to Miles for not

9 making the hearing session, and therefore, I

10 would have had the chance to offer a voice in

11 support of the National Organic Program. 

12 Thank you and your staff for your work. 

13 You guys are as responsible for

14 growth as the people doing the work, as the

15 board here is. And thank you for the legal

16 determination on Sunset that makes it require

17 a little more agreement to change the way we

18 make organic foods.

19 Now, to me, if you think organic

20 is good, you've got to tie the word growth to

21 it, and I do. And one of the things that's

22 really important about this board is the
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1 decisions that this board makes affects how

2 organic is going to grow.

3 I'd like to suggest this should be

4 one of the, one of the, not the only, top

5 thoughts that you have as you're making these

6 decisions.

7 Now, you can make a decision that

8 negatively affects growth, but you should

9 understand how it's negatively affecting

10 growth, and you should understand in your

11 heart that you think that's worth it. I think

12 this is really important.

13 Let's take a look at gellan gum. 

14 We had one case who got up here and spoke to

15 you about how she's going to lose, I can't

16 remember exactly what it is, somewhere around

17 40 million pounds if she loses this gum. 

18 I think it's an important thing to

19 keep in your mind that when it's made so that

20 products can't be made organic anymore, it

21 doesn't mean the products come off the shelf. 

22 It means the products on the shelf are
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1 conventional and not organic, and that was

2 just one case.

3 When you lose the sales of the

4 milk and the products she was talking about,

5 you also lose the demand on the agriculture

6 that has to feed these cows. This is really

7 a huge, huge thing. We need to keep this in

8 mind when we're making these kinds of

9 decisions, similarly, with methionine. 

10 Any pressure you put against the

11 chicken industry is going to reduce its

12 strength, going to reduce its demand on

13 organic agriculture. Again, there may be

14 reasons to do this. But please, make these

15 decisions while thinking about how it's

16 affecting the growth of this industry.

17 Gum trag is liable to end up being

18 a really interesting story. The story that

19 this is going to send to that person who's

20 going to lose his business - he said he's

21 going to lose his business if he doesn't get

22 the gum trag - is not to go into organic
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1 business because you can't be sure what's

2 going to happen, and you can't trust what the

3 outcomes are going to be.

4 By way of confession, I'm a food

5 scientist, actually one of the experts in the

6 world at it, and I want to thank you all. 

7 Please keep growth as one of the major things

8 to keep in mind because organic is worth it. 

9 That's exactly four minutes.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

11 Well, the buzzer hasn't gone off though. You

12 forgot to do it? Okay, well, he does get the

13 magic wand today.

14 MR. ASHBY: My dogs barked at four

15 minutes.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Questions,

17 comments, Harold?

18 MR. AUSTIN: As usual, great

19 presentation, John. You touched on, I think,

20 a point that we often overlook as we sit here

21 and we hold these deliberations, discussions,

22 robust conversations, where the organic
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1 community, the stakeholders are today versus

2 where they were when all of these rules came

3 into effect.

4 And I think you touched on it when

5 you talked about growth. And one of the

6 things that we need to look at is how we

7 impact that. Could you explain or give us

8 your thoughts a little bit more in detail on

9 the growth as you've experienced it, of where

10 our organic industry was when all of this came

11 into fruition versus where it is now, and the

12 considerations of the impacts of the

13 deliberations that we --- on these things that

14 we have to decide?

15 MR. ASHBY: The impacts of the

16 what? I couldn't --

17 MR. AUSTIN: Well, on the

18 decisions that we're making, and how that --

19 MR. ASHBY: Okay.

20 MR. AUSTIN: -- impact maybe

21 varies a little bit today versus 20 years ago

22 because of the sheer size, the volume, and the
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1 complexity of where organic now has grown to?

2 MR. ASHBY: Well, there's --- let

3 me give a little personal example. I won't

4 single the person out. But I can't even

5 remember how long ago this was. But I may

6 have developed the very first organic flavor

7 ever, it was a lemon flavor, years before

8 there was any organic rule. 

9 I frankly have really not got any

10 idea if that would meet today's standards at

11 all, but it was, you know, it was the best we

12 could do at the time. It was a start.

13 And we've, you know, we've moved

14 light-years beyond that now, in terms of

15 looking at these things and seeing how it

16 works. However, you know, this was mentioned

17 at the meeting. 

18 One of the things that happens

19 here is one sees a relative absence of

20 comments as a lack of interest. And I can

21 tell you for sure there's a lot of people that

22 are just plain afraid to come here. People
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1 making organic food, their attorneys won't let

2 people come up here and talk. In some

3 regards, you should perhaps disregard

4 everything I'm saying, that I come up here and

5 say, proving my lack of common sense. 

6 But like I said before, you know,

7 the growth of this is really crucial. I mean,

8 and it can't be taken --- it really can't be

9 taken lightly the impact you guys have on

10 this, all of you. 

11 Every single time --- you know,

12 one way to look at this, in the absolute most

13 extreme, is this now it's a choice between

14 organic and 2,4-D. When the demand goes down

15 on organic, the demand on organic crops goes

16 down, and they become conventional. 

17 This is where we are now. This is

18 really -- this is an element of the trade off. 

19 It's a scary thing. It's a problem that you

20 can't get as much feedback as you need because

21 people are afraid to speak up. And some

22 people, like our gum trag guy just, you know,
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1 he's busy running a business, you know.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold, follow

3 up?

4 MR. AUSTIN: Follow up question. 

5 How would you suggest that the NOSB, the NOP,

6 what can we do different to get a more

7 presence of equality of the various

8 stakeholders, and to remove the concerns or

9 the fears of those individuals that are afraid

10 to come here and speak on behalf of themselves

11 and their businesses or their farms? Is there

12 an easy solution to that or not?

13 MR. ASHBY: There is not an easy

14 solution to that. There's not an easy

15 solution. But, you know, if some of these

16 things that happen to people who do speak up,

17 if that were to be toned down, that would

18 help.

19 You know, what you've got is

20 you've got --- you've just got attorneys

21 rightfully afraid that their brands are going

22 to be destroyed by people because these kinds
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1 of things happen. And it's a --- there's no

2 way you can tell them that's not a realistic

3 fear, there just isn't.

4 And so, you know, it comes down to

5 people without common sense, like me, who are

6 willing to stand up here and, you know, go

7 ahead, do what you want.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

9 John.

10 MR. ASHBY: Thank you.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

12 speaker is Thomas Harding and will be followed

13 by Rebecca Thistlethwaite.

14 MR. HARDING: Good morning. First

15 of all, Madam Chair, what a good job you're

16 doing. The NOSB, those coming and those

17 going, we thank you very much for your very

18 important work, and it's not an easy job. And

19 Miles, your team is doing a good job. Accept

20 the criticism, build on it, but we thank you

21 all for that you do.

22 First of all, I want to remind you
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1 that we leave the year of the farmer and we

2 enter the year of soil, the most important

3 part of organic production. Let's make sure

4 that we never forget that everything begins

5 there.

6 I'm here this morning just to talk

7 in support of a material, acidified sodium

8 chlorite, which is proposed to be added to

9 organic livestock production. It was removed

10 from the agenda last meeting, and I'm hoping

11 that, and I encourage you to move it to the

12 agenda for the next meeting.

13 And if there are any technical

14 aspects that are needing to be reviewed, as

15 the young lady from Organic Valley spoke

16 yesterday, we have people following me that

17 can really deal with the technical aspects.

18 This is a very important material,

19 and it's very important that we have options,

20 in fact, that we have qualified options. 

21 There are very few when it comes to tit dips

22 for dairy men.
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1 It's really important that we look

2 at it in the long term and the perspective

3 that it is a health and wellness thing, but it

4 also has a humane factor to it.

5 The other thing is, as I was glad

6 to see yesterday, that you've moved NPE to a

7 technical review. That's a very important

8 issue. 

9 In many countries, particularly

10 where we were in the last week, the European

11 Union, Japan, they are totally prohibiting any

12 sanitation material or livestock material with

13 NPE. So, that study is really important. Pay

14 a lot of attention to it, and make sure that

15 we look at the big picture for the long term.

16 I'm looking forward to ASC hitting

17 the agenda at the next meeting. I encourage

18 you from the subcommittee, and committee

19 level, and on the NOSB level, to really

20 support this material for organic livestock

21 use.

22 Two quick points. I want to
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1 remind everyone in here that in the growth of

2 this industry over the last several years,

3 particularly since 2011, has been incredible. 

4 We've averaged over ten percent, in some cases

5 20 percent a year. That took place because of

6 this rule. The Beyond Organic concept that

7 it's better than organic is nonsense. We are

8 the only legal system. We have a framework. 

9 We have the only fully documented system that

10 is transparent to the public through the

11 organic system plan, the inspection process,

12 the certification process, the compliance and

13 penalty process. Let's not forget what you're

14 building here.

15 The other thing is achievement is

16 incremental. We never thought that the

17 materials list would be an endless list, but

18 you should have seen it before the law. Every

19 certifier had a list of several pages. 

20 So it's really important that you

21 recognize that these tools, these materials,

22 these processes, are incredibly important to
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1 growth. Through innovation. Through building

2 strong industry and research, we'll improve

3 the material process so we can reduce the

4 materials list, but don't remove the tools. 

5 Do not remove the tools that are

6 essential and that prove functional, that

7 meets the environmental criteria and meets all

8 of the aspects of the petition process. It's

9 really important that we understand where

10 we're going.

11 The idea that Beyond Organics can

12 stand up with any credibility to what the

13 organic legal system really represents, in my

14 opinion, is just not true. We need to build

15 on truth. We need to build on transparency. 

16 We need to build on consumer education. But

17 let's not throw the baby out with the bath

18 water. 

19 And let's promote the benefits of

20 organic, the values of organic, and the

21 importance of producers. It is really

22 essential that we do something about GMOs to
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1 the point that we say to Mr. Secretary, as

2 I've said many times --- may I finish my

3 point?

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

5 MR. HARDING: Coexistence with

6 GMOs for the organic industry is not feasible. 

7 The legal framework that the contaminator pays

8 is essential. Thank you all very much.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you for

10 your comments. Are there any questions? Yes,

11 Tracy?

12 MS. FAVRE: Thank you, Mr.

13 Harding, for your comments. I want to one,

14 let you know that we do plan to bring

15 acidified sodium chlorite to the agenda for

16 the spring meeting. 

17 And as one of our farmers on the

18 Board says, on the farm it's called a tit, and

19 in the town it's called a teat, so we call it

20 a teat dip, just for the record.

21 MR. HARDING: Thank you very much.

22 MS. FAVRE: The question that we
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1 had originally was about the multiple uses of

2 acidified sodium chlorite versus

3 chlorhexidine. Can you speak to that briefly,

4 please?

5 MR. HARDING: Following me is a

6 representative of the company that makes this

7 product, and we'll let him address

8 specifically your question. 

9 But one of the things that's

10 really important is that all of the

11 environmental studies, everything that we've

12 done, when we looked at the list as general,

13 we found that really with the materials that

14 are on the list right now, sometimes they're

15 not optional because they contain other

16 materials that are prohibited.

17 So I'll wait for the gentleman

18 from Eco Lab to get specific into your

19 question. But what's really important with

20 what we're doing here is this is a proven

21 product. 

22 It's environmentally a very
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1 important product from the standpoint of

2 health and wellness for the animal, and

3 particularly for the well being. He'll come

4 up in about a half an hour, I think.

5 MS. FAVRE: Thank you very much.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

7 questions? Thank you.

8 MR. HARDING: Thank you.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next person

10 to speak is Rebecca Thistlethwaite followed by

11 Scott Rice.

12 MS. THISTLETHWAITE: Hello, my

13 name is Rebecca Thistlethwaite and I'm from

14 Mosier, Oregon. I'm a Policy Analyst for the

15 Cornucopia and a former organic poultry

16 producer. I'm here today to discuss two items

17 on the agenda. 

18 The first is the Livestock

19 Subcommittee discussion document on livestock

20 vaccines made with excluded methods. The

21 second is the Sunset Review of sulfurous acid

22 that the Crops Committee and the full Board
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1 must consider.

2 First off, I have to say it's very

3 disappointing that vaccines are the only

4 agenda item for the Livestock Subcommittee. 

5 To see that methionine discussion is still

6 languishing in subcommittee is, frankly,

7 unacceptable. This is a critical issue to the

8 integrity of organic animal production and yet

9 we keep pushing it off.

10 On the positive side, I am happy

11 to hear that origin of livestock and animal

12 welfare regs are moving forward through the

13 pipeline. Miles, I encourage you to please

14 shepherd them through that process.

15 Back to vaccines, the discussion

16 document put forth by the Livestock

17 Subcommittee in August asked for more guidance

18 from the NOP on how to make a determination of

19 whether a vaccine has been produced with

20 excluded methods, so that it is not left to

21 the certifiers or MROs to make that decision.

22 Due to labeling inconsistencies,
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1 confidential business information, and a

2 growing number of complex genetic engineering

3 techniques, it is next to impossible for

4 certifiers and MROs to determine if excluded

5 methods were used to produce a vaccine.

6 In 2012, the NOSB recommended that

7 the NOP help identify all vaccines registered

8 with the USDA as either GMO or non-GMO, and

9 produce a list that could help certifiers and

10 producers. The USDA, in their infinite

11 wisdom, said if they created this list, it

12 might imply there's something wrong with

13 vaccines produced with excluded methods, and

14 they were concerned about liability issues.

15 So, no list has been created. 

16 Meanwhile, producers may be using vaccines

17 with excluded methods without knowing it, and

18 the NOP just turns a blind eye to this

19 situation. A further watering down of organic

20 integrity.

21 Now, onto sulfurous acid. I did a

22 lot of research on this material, finding
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1 information that not even the technical review

2 mentioned. We wish the contractors producing

3 the TRs were compelled to be more thorough in

4 their research as well.

5 I want to support this material to

6 help growers combating alkaline soils in

7 irrigation water. However, the Crop

8 Subcommittee has not provided us with enough

9 information in order to keep this material on

10 the National List. There are still too many

11 unanswered questions regarding the human

12 health and environment criteria.

13 Sulfurous acid produced by burning

14 elemental sulfur and passing water over the

15 gas can be an effective technique to combat

16 alkaline soils in irrigation water. To

17 illustrate the size of the problem, the USDA

18 estimates that between 60 and 70 percent of

19 world's crop land has a pH over 7. 

20 In just the state of Utah alone,

21 92 percent of soil samples that Utah State

22 University receives are over a pH of 7. So
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1 this is a big problem, particularly in western

2 states, and it's a growing problem.

3 There's other techniques to deal

4 with alkalinity, but they each have their

5 limitations. For example, irrigation leaching

6 of salts below the root zone can help reclaim

7 acidic soils, but many growers in arid

8 environments are under water restrictions

9 where it's not possible to over-irrigate. It

10 can also leach out excess nutrients.

11 We learned from a couple sulfur

12 burner researchers that there are currently

13 few safety protocols nor safety maintenance

14 procedures in place with sulfur burners at the

15 farm they visited. 

16 We also contacted the EPA and

17 Department of Air Quality. We found that

18 there are no regulations on these machines

19 even though they have some emissions of sulfur

20 dioxide, a potent greenhouse gas and source of

21 acid rain. Thank you.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any questions? 
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1 Okay, thank you. The next speaker is Scott

2 Rice, and followed by Mitch Blumenthal.

3 MR. RICE: Good morning. My name

4 is Scott Rice, and I'm the Accreditation and

5 Quality Manager for the Washington State

6 Department of Agriculture Organic Food

7 Program, the country's largest, oldest, and

8 best state certification program.

9 I serve as the Board Chair of ACA,

10 the Accredited Certifiers Association. An

11 association of 50 accredited domestic and

12 international certifiers and supporting

13 members from the organic community.

14 The ACA's mission is simple. We

15 are a member-based association of accredited

16 organic certifiers and supporters who value

17 certification. Our association collaborates,

18 educates, and advocates sound and sensible

19 implementation of the USDA organic

20 regulations.

21 While ACA has submitted comments

22 and documents for this meeting's agenda, I am
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1 here to share some of the activities of our

2 association and the work that we do. Work

3 that seeks to expand partnerships in the

4 spirit of continuous improvement of the

5 organic sector.

6 I would first like to thank the

7 outgoing members for their work and dedication

8 to the organic integrity and the organic label

9 that each of us in this room shares. Also, a

10 warm welcome to the new members coming on

11 board. While you're not here yet, we look

12 forward to a productive partnership.

13 Partnership is integral to what we

14 do at ACA. We see ourselves as partners in

15 certification with fellow certifiers, seeking

16 consistent, rigorous implementation of the

17 USDA organic regulations. 

18 We accomplish this through an

19 active list serv discussion, working groups

20 that bring together diverse voices and

21 geography, covering topics ranging from the

22 most recent instruction from NOP to proposed
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1 documents on upcoming NOSB agendas, and

2 finally through our annual capstone event, a

3 certifier training held in conjunction with

4 NOP staff during which we deliver a dynamic,

5 interactive agenda that further builds on our

6 collective strengths and understanding of the

7 organic regulations.

8 Through this partnership, our

9 fellow certifiers, we now --- through this

10 partnership with our fellow certifiers, we now

11 see the least variances in interpretation of

12 the standards in a decade.

13 This partnership also extends to

14 our clients. While we are regulators, we

15 strive to see our clients succeed and organic

16 acreage grow. All the while ensuring that

17 organic integrity remains strong.

18 We do this by offering technical

19 assistance to our clients, connecting them to

20 resources so that they can better understand

21 and comply with organic regulations. As well,

22 we work continuously to improve our processes
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1 and forms, seeking to streamline certification

2 steps.

3 One example of how we are doing

4 this is through the recent sound and sensible

5 contracts awarded by USDA. Certifiers and

6 technical assistance providers, such as the

7 International Organic Inspectors Association,

8 are embarking on exciting projects to break

9 down the barriers to certification.

10 ACA is collaborating with IOIA on

11 these endeavors, and WSDA is working on some

12 exciting projects of our own. So stay tuned

13 for more on that.

14 This brings me to my last point. 

15 Under the leadership of WD administrator

16 McEvoy, and the support of Secretary Vilsack,

17 these partnerships are materializing and

18 growing stronger. We see organic standards

19 that are clearer and stronger than they've

20 ever been. 

21 NOP has implemented a wide variety

22 of measures making the standards stricter,
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1 held certifiers increasingly accountable

2 through more thorough accreditation audits,

3 while giving us the latitude to reduce

4 paperwork and cost burdens for the clients

5 that we serve.

6 ACA was pleased to partner with

7 NOP, the National Organic Coalition, IOIA, and

8 other organization in spring 2013 to kick off

9 the implementation of sound and sensible

10 initiatives, initiatives that now weave

11 through our everyday work.

12 There is still much work to be

13 done. We look forward to these continued

14 partnerships, and invite the NOSB to join us. 

15 We invite you to tap into the deep wealth of

16 experience and knowledge of our membership,

17 and our connection to the organic operations

18 we serve.

19 As we continue to build the

20 partnerships essential to our collective

21 success, and strive for the highest standard

22 of organic integrity, know that we are a
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1 resource ready to help. Thank you.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

3 Questions, comments, Harold?

4 MR. AUSTIN: Thanks, Scott. Could

5 you elaborate maybe a little bit on WSDA's

6 implementation of the sound and sensible

7 process during the inspection part of the

8 processes for, you know, looking at --- or

9 I'll say my Organic System Plan and stuff, to

10 incorporate and use that as a way to not just

11 look at that specific point where the

12 inspector is out there for our annual review,

13 to look at what we're doing for soil

14 amendments, for soil conditioning, for all of

15 that? 

16 But how, with sound and sensible

17 now becoming a part, that that's --- your

18 inspectors are --- how are your inspectors

19 using that to look at our process over an

20 extended period of time for --- during our

21 point of review, annual review?

22 MR. RICE: Sure. We've really
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1 shifted our focus to observation and

2 verification. You know that's always,

3 obviously, been part of our inspection

4 process, but it's easy to, as an inspector,

5 kind of get into the -- into your sort of,

6 making sure you've hit your check boxes and

7 your required fields. 

8 But we've really put an emphasis

9 on kind of that kicking the tires approach of

10 you're walking through that orchard or that

11 field with the client, and you can see the

12 measures that they've put in place for soil

13 building, for increasing organic matter. You

14 know, a lot of our orchards you see the

15 prunings left in the rows, and you see that

16 degrade over time, and you come back the

17 following year and see that soil continue to

18 build.

19 As far as the sound and sensible

20 approach, it really --- you know, again, we've

21 moved away from requiring every last piece of

22 documentation to show that something's
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1 happening. 

2 Instead, maybe we verify that

3 something is happening through a standard

4 operating procedure that's understood by

5 everyone involved in the operation versus

6 having a slip of paper for every last clean

7 out. It's just understood in that operation

8 that this is something that is expected, is

9 understood, and is happening. Does that get

10 at it?

11 MR. AUSTIN: Yes, I think --- and

12 part of that is the looking at, as you've

13 implemented this sound and sensible, and

14 you're shifting away from --- there's still a

15 lot of the paper processes in place, but isn't

16 it true that your field staff has really

17 turned the focus into actually physically feet

18 on the ground, working with those entities

19 that they're certifying, the producers, the

20 growers, the handlers, to really ---- feet on

21 the ground, to look at the nuts and the bolts,

22 to ensure that everything that they say
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1 they're doing, that they're actually, in fact,

2 doing?

3 MR. RICE: Oh, indeed, yes. We're

4 still looking at all of those control points,

5 and getting out in those fields, and seeing

6 what's going on there.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. The

8 next speaker is Mitch Blumenthal followed by

9 John Brunnquell.

10 MR. BLUMENTHAL: Good morning, and

11 thank you. Madam Chair, in the sense of

12 humor, I'd like to start off with a short joke

13 if I can. Why did the conventionally grown

14 banana go to the doctor? It wasn't peeling

15 well. Gosh, I thought you'd all know that

16 one.

17 Anyway, good morning. My name is

18 Mitch Blumenthal. I'm a tree hugging, dirt

19 worshiper. A farmer. I'm a member of the

20 Organic Produce Wholesalers Coalition. I'm

21 also a citizen lobbyist for The Cornucopia

22 Institute.
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1 I volunteered to help present

2 testimony because I want to ensure that the

3 integrity of organic food, specifically

4 organic produce, fruits and vegetables, is not

5 diluted. 

6 I neglected to mention that I'm

7 also, as part of the OPWC, the owner of the

8 most significant distributor of organic

9 produce in the southeast, Global Organic

10 Specialty Source.

11 I want to first comment on the

12 excluded methods terminology discussion

13 document. Since the definition of excluded

14 methods was developed in 1995, several issues

15 have come to require further clarification. 

16 These include: the use of

17 genetically mutated algae and untraceable

18 plant breeding techniques, such as double

19 haploid production, irradiation, chemical

20 mutagenesis, cell fusion, and embryo rescue. 

21 Also the use of GMOs to make biodegradable,

22 bioplastic mulches. This is a big issue for
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1 our growers, and something that needs to be

2 discussed further.

3 It reminds me at Eco Farm three

4 years ago, I attended a small meeting

5 regarding sustainable packaging for organic

6 produce, and we saw a great presentation. We

7 saw these beautiful, sustainable clam shells,

8 only to find out that they were made with GMO

9 corn. 

10 So, as an organic produce

11 distributor, we had the question of, is it

12 better to have something that's biodegradable

13 yet made with GMO corn, or better to use a

14 foam tray which will sit in a landfill for a

15 long time? These are really important issues.

16 We do agree with the materials GMO

17 Subcommittee recommendation to keep the U.S.

18 organic regulations a process-based system,

19 including excluded methods. 

20 Currently, educated consumers, and

21 I use that word educated, expect genetic

22 engineering to be absent throughout the entire
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1 process of organic agriculture. 

2 And I use that word carefully,

3 educated consumer, because as we know, a lot

4 of our consumers out there are not in the

5 organic world as we are day to day, and

6 they're not educated. We've made a commitment

7 to educate our consumers at our place of

8 business, and the OPWC has done the same. 

9 I think Dr. Rangan's testimony

10 yesterday, and Max's presentation as well,

11 should be a real wake up call to everyone in

12 this room and at this table that this label

13 that we see before us is becoming diluted. We

14 can't let that happen.

15 The discrepancies of what's

16 expected in organic agriculture, and the

17 reality of what occurs must be addressed. For

18 example, genes from genetic engineering might

19 be detected in organic products because of

20 cross-pollination, or contamination in

21 transportation, or processing facilities.

22 Likewise, it will be ultimately
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1 challenging, if not impossible, to exclude

2 genetic material created from techniques that

3 have been used in breeding facilities for

4 decades.

5 Genetic manipulation of plant

6 breeding materials has already occurred in

7 many crop varieties that are currently widely

8 used in organic farming. The commonly used

9 techniques include embryo rescue, mutations

10 through irradiation, exposure to chemicals,

11 and cell fusion.

12 Some of these techniques are no

13 longer traceable since they were used to

14 initial crosses, and have been passed down

15 through many generations. These techniques

16 are standard in the majority of public and

17 private plant breeding labs.

18 Likewise, there are many new

19 varieties in development that are using these

20 techniques. Wow, I shouldn't have started

21 with a joke.

22 (Laughter)
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We get the idea

2 though.

3 MR. BLUMENTHAL: You get the idea. 

4 Thanks for allowing me to give testimony. If

5 you have any questions on the excluded methods

6 terminology, feel free to speak to the

7 scientists at Cornucopia. If you have any

8 questions about organic fruits and vegetables,

9 feel free to speak to me.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thank

11 you so much. Thank you.

12 MR. BLUMENTHAL: No questions?

13 DR. TAYLOR: Do you have more? 

14 Did you --- can you complete your thought?

15 MR. BLUMENTHAL: It's mostly

16 technical. I think you guys got the idea.

17 DR. TAYLOR: Okay, great.

18 MR. BLUMENTHAL: Yes, but thank

19 you.

20 DR. TAYLOR: You're welcome.

21 MR. BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So we have John
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1 Brunnquell, and we'll take a ten minute break

2 following John's presentation.

3 MR. BRUNNQUELL: Good morning. 

4 Today I'd like to talk to you about three

5 issues facing the poultry industry:

6 methionine, NGMO vaccines, and outside access

7 -- if I can get this to advance.

8 John Brunnquell, I've been in the

9 egg industry for 27 years, President of Egg

10 Innovations. One of the unique things we

11 bring to the egg industry is 100 percent of

12 our birds on a commercial basis go outside, on

13 the ground, engage in natural behavior, dust

14 bathe, scratch and the like. 

15 So the comments I bring about

16 methionine, I will bring a frame of context to

17 it that we provide outside access, pasture,

18 and natural behavior.

19 I've heard over the last several

20 months commentary from some members of the

21 Board that we need to keep pressure on the egg

22 industry to find alternatives to methionine. 
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1 I would contend it's the opposite. The egg

2 industry needs to bring pressure to you. 

3 We've set a bar at two pounds, and

4 this is feathering at three pounds. This is

5 feathering at two pounds in the same

6 environment. We've set that at the NOSB

7 level. 

8 However long you haggle or debate

9 the issue of average versus cap, it doesn't

10 change the fact that the industry is out there

11 dealing with animal welfare issues today. And

12 if you do not deal with this issue until next

13 spring, for another six months we will deal

14 with these issues. We will deal with them. 

15 But we contend that the issue is with this

16 Board to allow us an average, and to do it

17 very rapidly. In our opinion, support the

18 cap.

19 The second issue is NGMO vaccines. 

20 Specifically what I want you to be aware of is

21 salmonella enteritidis is a vaccine that is

22 based off of GMO technology. 
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1 Second, I'd like you to understand

2 that as of January 1st, 2015, it is the law of

3 the State of California that all organic

4 birds, and all birds in general, will be

5 vaccinated with an SE vaccine or you do not

6 sell those eggs in California, and that is the

7 law.

8 As such, if you eliminate NGMO

9 vaccines without an alternative, organic eggs

10 don't exist in California. So we are

11 supportive of the elimination of GMOs, but

12 provide us a commercial alternative first.

13 The last issue I want to talk

14 about is outside access. We believe that

15 birds that are producing organic eggs belong

16 outside, on the ground, on soil, with

17 significant access. USDA and NOP, please

18 finish that job. Thank you.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

20 John. Questions? Tracy?

21 MS. FAVRE: Thank you for your

22 comments and for bringing us some photographs
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1 so we can really visualize what these

2 restrictions might have -- the impact they

3 might have. 

4 Could you address your thoughts

5 towards -- we heard comments earlier today

6 that there has been some studies done that

7 basically don't show the negative impact with

8 reductions in methionine as we're hearing? 

9 And so, as a Board, and as a Livestock

10 Committee, we're getting sort of conflicting

11 information and we need some help

12 understanding that. 

13 MR. BRUNNQUELL: And we truly

14 understand the conflicting information you

15 receive. I'll try and say it as simply as I

16 can. 

17 The Board, and anyone else in the

18 industry, has an open invitation to see our

19 facilities. All of our facilities have a

20 minimum of ten square feet outside, and they

21 go up to 50 square feet outside. All of our

22 facilities allow the birds to dust bathe,
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1 perch, scratch. 

2 We'll show you the diets, and

3 we'll show you birds that are on non-organic

4 diets with three pounds. We will show you

5 organic birds, two pounds. They have no

6 different production regimen. They are both

7 managed the same way.

8 And we will point out the

9 differences to you on animal welfare issues,

10 whether it is feathering --- I'm in a northern

11 climate, Indiana, so I'm about to enter the

12 cold weather season. So I'm going to deal

13 with elevated levels of ammonia and, because

14 I have to put higher levels of protein in the

15 diet, it only exacerbates the issue. 

16 And so, what we're saying to

17 everybody is we are happy to open our doors to

18 give people a firsthand visual so that we're

19 talking with facts in a real world environment

20 rather than speculation or reports from

21 another country.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Francis?
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1 MR. THICKE: Thank you for your

2 comments. Yesterday, a representative from

3 the poultry industry said that in about 80 of

4 the birds do not show any problem with

5 methionine at the levels now, but 20 percent

6 do, and he didn't have any explanation for

7 that. Do you have any thoughts about why some

8 do and some don't?

9 MR. BRUNNQUELL: A number of

10 factors come into play, and I wouldn't

11 disagree that it's not a universal issue. It

12 depends on your nutritionist, because each

13 producer has a separate poultry nutritionist

14 and they'll have their different philosophies

15 on nutrition. 

16 It will depend on climate. If

17 you're a producer in southern California

18 versus Michigan, we deal with different, you

19 know, weather issues. And so, a lot of

20 factors weigh into the issue. 

21 And it depends on what outside

22 access means. When you say 80 percent of the
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1 organic birds don't have an issue potentially,

2 we have a full plethora of what outside access

3 and what the living environment in current

4 organic standards mean.

5 So it's a very dynamic issue. It

6 isn't a single topic that is cause and effect,

7 that you can eliminate this one issue and you

8 solve the problem.

9 MR. THICKE: So do you think that

10 access to the outdoors does help change it?

11 MR. BRUNNQUELL: Clearly. We've

12 transitioned 100 of our -- even our non13 organic birds. We believe that strongly in

14 outside access.

15 MS. FAVRE: So we also heard

16 comments earlier today that this is not an

17 animal welfare issues, that it's a production

18 issue. Can you speak to that, please?

19 MR. BRUNNQUELL: Yes. My

20 background is I grew up on a poultry farm, 27

21 years in the industry, a master's degree in

22 poultry science, and looking at 40 farms every
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1 week. 

2 I'll show you pictures. I'll show

3 you quantitative data. It is an animal

4 welfare issue that we can score and we can

5 measure.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Colehour?

7 MR. BONDERA: Thank you, and thank

8 you, John, for your presentation. I think you

9 bring up important observations and

10 experiences. 

11 I wanted to ask you, based on what

12 you chose to present, if you would be willing

13 to address the question that we, on the

14 Livestock committee -- Subcommittee, have to

15 address? But also has been brought up, which

16 is --- I think, from your presentation, it was

17 interesting that you chose to talk about the

18 non-GMO vaccines need to be available if we're

19 going to talk about GMO vaccines because

20 vaccines are necessary, and then that same

21 question. 

22 And this isn't exactly about
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1 methionine because I think the question is

2 synthetic methionine, and that wasn't really

3 emphasized because I think that's a critical

4 thing to point out. When you were presenting,

5 I wanted to add that word to your

6 presentation, but that's not my point.

7 My point is, what do you think, or

8 can you address your observation or experience

9 with the development or pursuit of

10 alternatives to the synthetic methionine that

11 have come up a little bit in the

12 conversations, but also you must be fully

13 aware of, and how those could, or should, or

14 will be impacting the industry in your

15 opinion? Thank you.

16 MR. BRUNNQUELL: I serve on the

17 United Egg Producers Organic Egg Committee,

18 and I travel with that circle of producers. 

19 I serve on the Board of Directors of the

20 Organic Egg Farmers of America, and I travel

21 in that circle of producers. 

22 We talk about this as an industry
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1 relentlessly. I serve on the Methionine Task

2 Force. We have an incredible desire, as an

3 industry, to find an alternative. I will be

4 the first one to -- when a commercially

5 available alternative is available, we will

6 move there. 

7 It's not a cost issue. It's

8 nothing more than there is not a commercial

9 available application. And it's not bugs, and

10 it's not worms, and it's not high methionine

11 corn. 

12 What we fail to remember is at

13 this point, there are 10 million organic

14 layers in the United States. Then you add the

15 broilers and other avian species. Commercial

16 availability is a very significant topic when

17 you run the math.

18 And so, while we see these studies

19 done in labs and in micro settings that have

20 theoretical results, when you take them out to

21 the scale of organic in the United States,

22 they are not sustainable at this point.
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1 Having said that, that does not at

2 all relieve our desire to find a solution, and

3 we will aggressively, as an industry, pursue

4 it on an ongoing basis.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Wendy?

6 MS. FULWIDER: What do you think

7 will happen to your industry if this Board

8 takes methionine away from you?

9 MR. BRUNNQUELL: What will happen

10 to the industry is a couple of things, at

11 least in our opinion. 

12 Number one, the birds will still

13 live. They'll lay less eggs. There will be

14 higher mortality. They will be other

15 operational issues. That will lead to an

16 elevated cost of organic because, as an

17 industry, we will pass along those operational

18 costs. 

19 So a portion of the industry

20 that's not prepared to deal with it will

21 dissipate, and a portion of the industry will

22 simply arrive at a price point that, if it's
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1 the rule of the land to operate in that

2 environment, we'll comply.

3 But we will recognize that it

4 isn't what's best for the birds. It doesn't

5 meet our charter of being concerned about the

6 animal, but we will follow it, and we will

7 adjust prices accordingly, and pass those

8 prices along.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

10 We'll take a ten minute break now, so

11 synchronize your iPhones. It's 10:39 on mine,

12 so that --- if you add on ten, that's when

13 we'll come back, and we'll start promptly with

14 Alesia Bock. Thank you.

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

16 matter went off the record at 10:39 a.m. and

17 resumed at 10:51 a.m.) 

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The first

19 speaker is going to be Alesia Brock and before

20 she says her comments, I know that Mac has an

21 important announcement to make.

22 MR. STONE: So the standing at
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1 this time, John Ashby is the lone winner of

2 the timing of public comment. His timing was

3 impeccable at four minutes. So John, don't go

4 away without your tremendous gifts.

5 Bill Wolf and Rebecca

6 Thistlethwaite both stopped immediately upon

7 the red light and the respect for the time. 

8 So both of them each get one of our wonderful

9 prizes. And there's more if you can achieve

10 it.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So the

12 challenge is on for Alesia Bock who's going to

13 come up next, followed by Jim Winter.

14 MS. BROCK: All right, thank you. 

15 Hello Madam Chair and members of the Board. 

16 Thank you for the opportunity to provide

17 comments today.

18 My name is Alesia Bock. I'm with

19 Agrosystems International. And I'm providing

20 comments today to the Board and the Livestock

21 Committee regarding acidified sodium chlorite

22 or ASC.
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1 While I understand that ASC is not

2 specifically on this meeting's agenda, I'm

3 appreciative to hear that it will be on next

4 spring's agenda. And I'm here to support our

5 -- support the petition to add ASC as a

6 synthetic substance allowed for use in organic

7 livestock production in Sections 205-603 of

8 the National List.

9 During the NOSB meeting earlier

10 this year, several members asked for

11 additional technical information on this

12 material regarding two questions. Chlorite

13 residues in milk and work place exposure to

14 chlorine dioxide generated during teat dip

15 mixing and application.

16 That data was submitted to the NOP

17 and NOSB immediately after last meeting. In

18 addition, the material expert is here today to

19 answer any further technical questions that

20 you have. And I believe he's coming up after

21 me.

22 At the spring meeting, NOSB also
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1 suggested that it would be helpful to hear

2 from organic dairy producers regarding their

3 need for the alternative teat dip product and

4 not just from the manufacturer. Yesterday,

5 you heard from Organic Valley regarding their

6 support for the addition of ASC to the

7 National List.

8 Today I am submitting 87

9 additional petition signatures on behalf of

10 organic dairy producers representing six

11 states in a wide geographical area. From the

12 west coast through the mid-west to the east

13 coast.

14 These petitioners have agreed that

15 this alternative teat dip material is

16 necessary due to limited viable alternatives

17 currently available. And it is a necessary

18 tool to keep their herds healthy and avoid the

19 need for antibiotics.

20 In conclusion, we respectfully

21 request that NOSB consider these additional

22 petitions in favor of adding ASC to the
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1 National List, Section 205-603 for use in

2 organic livestock production. Thank you for

3 your time. Thank you for your service on the

4 Board.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

6 Questions? Thank you very much.

7 Next speaker is Jim Winter and it

8 will be followed by David Bruce.

9 MR. WINTER: Good morning, Madam

10 Chairman and Board. Thank you very much for

11 the opportunity to speak to you again.

12 I was here last spring supporting

13 acidified sodium chlorite, ASC for use in teat

14 dips for use on organic dairy farms. During

15 that presentation, I did receive some

16 questions. Alesia just commented on those.

17 I thought I would follow up a

18 little bit for those of you that did not get

19 the information with those questions and a

20 little backup information. And then open up

21 for further questions about this technology.

22 First of all, there was a question
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1 concerning the potential chlorine residue in

2 milk. Chlorine residues in milk while using

3 acidified sodium chlorite teat dips have not

4 been a concern because chlorite residues were

5 non-detectable in extended herd studies and

6 chlorite is not persistent in milk changing to

7 chlorite that is already present in milk.

8 I gave two examples in the

9 information. My technical support team went

10 through the data and we gave two examples. 

11 One of those was a Cornell study where a

12 sodium chlorite teat dip 4XLA was used pre and

13 post and milk samples were gathered and then

14 tested for chlorite and there was none

15 present.

16 There was a second reference to a

17 paper that was presented at National Mastitis

18 Counsel related to a measuring chlorite in

19 milk. And the fact that once it is in milk,

20 it immediately over a very short amount of

21 time will convert to chloride which is salt,

22 which is what our claim was made when I made
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1 the presentation.

2 The second question was around the

3 potential workplace exposure to chlorine

4 dioxide. Which is what is -- a gas that is

5 given off when acidified sodium chlorite

6 starts to degrade.

7 Chlorine dioxide is a

8 water-soluble gas that has an odor similar to

9 that of chlorine. It is an oxidizer and has

10 been used as an antimicrobial for various

11 applications, one such as teat dips. And

12 that's for the last 25 years.

13 To backup that information, I did

14 present data from an on farm study that was

15 run looking at chlorine dioxide release. And

16 whether that was an issue. The data would

17 show that in the study, the detection devices

18 had to be within four inches of the product to

19 exceed any detection limits.

20 And when you're typically mixing a

21 teat dip, it essentially, you're at arms

22 length away. So at that particular level,
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1 there was no minimum detection showing.

2 The last question that came up, it

3 did not come up at the meeting, but it's come

4 up since then, is the difficulty of mixing the

5 activator and base components of the acidified

6 sodium chlorite teat dips. I think you're all

7 aware that acidified sodium chlorite

8 essentially is activated by taking an organic

9 acid, primarily lactic, mixing it with sodium

10 chlorite and producing the acidified sodium

11 chlorite.

12 There is a slight chlorine release

13 which we talked about. That particular

14 mechanism of mixing, some people find that to

15 be an added piece of work that they really

16 don't like.

17 Over the years, and I've been in

18 this -- selling this particular product in

19 manufacturing for the last 20 years, we have

20 developed many ways to do that. Everything

21 from the simple of mixing 50/50, shaking it

22 and using it. To sophisticated pumping
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1 mechanisms that are controller based, that

2 have flow meters on them that you can actually

3 program them and they will actually inject or

4 send the product mixed and activated to the

5 parlor. So there are ways to work around that

6 particular issue.

7 Essentially, the question came up

8 earlier, which I'll respond to right now and

9 then you can ask me later. And I think I

10 heard the question right, is what is -- 

11 (Time buzzer.)

12 MR. WINTER: I'll stop right now

13 and then answer questions.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Did you want to

15 finish that sentence?

16 MR. WINTER: Okay. I was just

17 going to say that the question was related to

18 how does ASC and chlorhexidine compare. Both

19 are germicides. But their mode of action is

20 very different.

21 Where ASC is an oxidizing agent

22 that essentially penetrates the cell wall and
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1 blows it apart, chlorhexidine attaches to the

2 cell wall and disrupts cell integrity. 

3 Therefore, their mode puts them using for

4 different uses.

5 Acidified sodium chlorite is very

6 broad spectrum. It's used in a lot of

7 different places. It's used for treating

8 water in place of chlorine. And it's also

9 used as you know, and it's approved for use on

10 treating as an antimicrobial on food

11 substances.

12 Chlorhexidine is primarily used as

13 a disinfectant. It is used in teat dips. But

14 it also is primarily used a lot in surgical

15 procedures as far as treating wounds and

16 treating sites where there will be surgeries

17 taking place.

18 Chlorhexidine has never been

19 approved for broad use as far as treating any

20 type of food for two reasons. Number one, its

21 mode of action is not as broad spectrum. It

22 doesn't kill a lot of gram negatives. 
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1 Especially pseudomonas. And secondly, its

2 profile when it breaks down, there is some

3 concern about what breaks down as far as

4 what's left over after using chlorhexidine.

5 Any other questions?

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other

7 questions? Frances?

8 MR. WINTER: Yes, Frances?

9 MR. THICKE: Thank you. Did you

10 -- did I understand right that you said that

11 when it's mixed, there is no detectable

12 chlorine or there is --

13 MR. WINTER: No, no. I said when

14 it's mixed, there will be a little bit of

15 chlorine, you'll get a chlorine smell.

16 MR. THICKE: Okay. But when you

17 said there's four inches, you could detect it.

18 That's after it's mixed right?

19 MR. WINTER: Oh yes. Yes. We

20 actually did a study where the product was

21 mixed. And then we actually sprayed it. And

22 we found that the only way we could pick up
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1 the detectable level of chlorine dioxide was

2 within four inches of the mix -- of the actual

3 vessel.

4 MR. THICKE: So that's after it's

5 mixed.

6 MR. WINTER: Yes.

7 MR. THICKE: But during mixing,

8 did you measure the detectable chlorine

9 release then?

10 MR. WINTER: Well what we were

11 doing was we were mixing it and actually using

12 it in a parlor where we were applying it with

13 a sprayer.

14 MR. THICKE: Okay.

15 MR. WINTER: And we had a device

16 to measure at the level of the neck, and we

17 had one in the parlor. And so it was autom --

18 it was being mixed regularly as it was being

19 atomized into the air. And we didn't have any

20 detectable problems with chlorine dioxide.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

22 questions? Thank you very much.
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1 MR. WINTER: Thank you.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Next speaker is

3 David Bruce. And he'll be followed by

4 Lawrence Datnoff.

5 MR. BRUCE: Good morning

6 everybody. My name is David Bruce. I work

7 for Organic Valley. I'm the director of the

8 non-dairy pools there, which means eggs, meat,

9 produce and soy. I'm also co-chair of the

10 Methionine Task Force and one of the founders

11 and board members of the Organic Egg Farmers

12 of America.

13 I had thought about starting out

14 this morning following the lead of Professor

15 McIlvoy and -- who was my entomology professor

16 25 years ago and making everybody stand up and

17 act like their favorite chicken. But I'm

18 going to pass on that since four minutes is

19 really short.

20 I also just wanted to say I was

21 really appreciative of Jim Pierce's comments

22 yesterday. I really think that it's time to
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1 move beyond the atmosphere of contention and

2 acrimony and sort of blame that's been hanging

3 in the air and work together to further things

4 to the best of our ability. So I really look

5 forward to doing that. So thank you Jim.

6 I was also thinking about ten

7 years ago when Jim left Organic Valley and he

8 walked into my office with a big box full of

9 folders on methionine and said good luck

10 David. So, thanks a lot Jim.

11 A couple of things before I hit on

12 methionine, one is I really appreciate OTA's

13 interpretation on gellan gum and couldn't

14 agree more. As director of our soy program,

15 it's a really important thing for us.

16 We are pleased with the way we've

17 been able to reformulate and we don't have

18 consumers' claiming the sky is falling because

19 it's in there. So we'd like to continue

20 listening.

21 And in terms of made with excluded

22 methods vaccines. I really appreciate the
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1 depth to which the livestock committee has

2 gone into this. And the ask for guidance from

3 the program. I do want to be careful about

4 any language where they're only allowed under

5 emergency situations.

6 You know, as other people have

7 said, organic farmers have very few tools. 

8 And it's really important that we don't take

9 those away. Especially given the FDA mandates

10 to be SE free and that kind of thing. So it's

11 a complicated subject. But I really urge the

12 continued allowance of the avian salmonellas

13 vaccine.

14 Just quickly, I couldn't be more

15 pleased that the NOP is taking up the animal

16 welfare recommendation from 2011. I first

17 testified on outdoor actives for chickens in

18 Chicago in 1994. So it's exciting to see some

19 progress on that.

20 I do think that it's a very

21 complicated recommendation in that you know,

22 the economic impact study had a doubtful
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1 conclusion. So really looking forward to

2 seeing how that moves forward.

3 On methionine, it's really

4 disappointing for me that not only has

5 methionine been the sort of poster child for

6 synthetics in livestock production. But it is

7 now the victim of the sunset politics and

8 posturing.

9 It's really disappointing that

10 that surrounds the conversation because it's

11 not so complicated. And I really would like

12 to think that we could have collaboration

13 together.

14 You know, NOC's proposal on black

15 soil fly larva and CFS's suggestion for that. 

16 You know, it's a great idea. When we've

17 looked into it, FDA was not pleased with the

18 idea of feeding that. And AAFCO felt like it

19 was an adulterated feed.

20 So you know, if there are

21 alternatives, let's work on them together. 

22 We've done trials on potato protein that we
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1 brought in from Europe. We've used the high

2 methionine corn to see what's possible. But

3 in the meanwhile, it's true that farmers are

4 suffering.

5 Feather pecking is a misdirected

6 foraging activity. But it only becomes

7 harmful when the birds are hungry for

8 additional protein. And so yes, you can feed

9 additional protein, but then you're dealing

10 with an environmental issue with a high

11 ammonia in the house.

12 So I do think we can come to

13 solution together. And I'm all about ideas. 

14 I'd like to see both sides working together. 

15 It's not like industry is trying to get away

16 with something. This isn't about enhanced

17 production. This is the about the well being

18 of the animals.

19 I was going to bring photos, but

20 then sort of scared myself off. Feather

21 pecked chickens you know are nasty looking. 

22 I didn't want to project naked birds onto the
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1 screen.

2 It's -- dealing with farmers, we

3 have 96 egg farmers. And dealing with farmers

4 that are struggling with the feather pecking

5 issue as a result of inadequate nutrition from

6 the beginning is frustrating, so.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

8 Questions? Tracy?

9 MS. FAVRE: So I might put you

10 slightly on the spot, so forgive me.

11 MR. BRUCE: Sure.

12 MS. FAVRE: If you had a choice of

13 showing photos of your feather pecked chickens

14 versus explaining to a consumer the

15 possibility of using a synthetic essentially

16 supplement to the feed, which would you think

17 would be more palatable to your customers?

18 MR. BRUCE: I would have no

19 problem explaining it to a customer. You

20 know, if my math is right, a chicken over a

21 year's lifetime will eat .1365 pounds of

22 synthetic methionine. I'm not concerned about
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1 that.

2 It's much more about the overall

3 well being of the bird. The environment they

4 live in. The organic feed they're consuming. 

5 The outdoor area they're living in.

6 So I'm not shy about it. It's

7 such a minute amount it's not a big deal.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other

9 questions? Thank you very much.

10 Next speaker is Lawrence Datnoff

11 and he'll be followed by Kelly Pepper.

12 MR. DATNOFF: Okay, Lawrence

13 Datnoff, I'm a professor of plant pathology. 

14 I'm here to talk about silicon as it relates

15 to plant diseases and aqueous potassium

16 silicate.

17 See the term silicon, Si is the

18 element. Silicate is SiO2, like sand

19 silicates or SiO3, they're -- when combined

20 with certain catenins like calcium and

21 potassium, and silicic acid is the form the

22 plant takes up.
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1 This is a dynamic cycle showing

2 how silicon gets into the soil. You have from 

3 polymers, essential oxides, minerals and

4 soils, irrigation water, but it can be leached

5 out. There's a weathering sequence in

6 different soils and so silicon can move out of

7 the system.

8 If you look through the

9 continental United States, there are a number

10 of soils that are deemed to be lower limiting

11 in this element. And you can see alfisols in

12 the southeast, the inceptisols in the

13 northeast and west and entisols.

14 The way that silicon enters into

15 the plants is through silicic acid. There's

16 transporter genes that have been identified,

17 it moves from the soil into the xylem. 

18 Translocates up to the xylem.

19 In a plant like rice, it

20 polymerizes in the first leaf therefore it's

21 no longer available. A number of other plants

22 have now been shown to have transporter genes
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1 too. Barley, maize, pumpkin, soybean, wheat.

2 Plants vary in their capacity to

3 accumulate this element. Wetland grasses

4 between 4.6 to 6.9 percent. Dryland around in

5 the one. And dicots are much lower. And

6 there's over 100 families that have been shown

7 to accumulate this element.

8 And there's really no

9 non-accumulators. So silicon has a tremendous

10 effect on biotic stress whether it's plant

11 diseases or insects. And also alleviating a

12 lot of abiotic stresses.

13 Here's an example, blue line

14 susceptible, white line partially resistant,

15 the magenta line is completely resistant. You

16 can take a susceptible cultivar, push it to

17 the same level as a partial resistance. You

18 can take a partial resistance cultivar and

19 push that level of resistance almost to the

20 same as complete genetic resistance.

21 How does that work? We think one

22 idea is mechanical barrier hypothesis. The
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1 fungus lands tries to penetrate and there's no

2 infection. But we've been able to show that

3 you can reduce lesions with silicon. And

4 their minute size.

5 And you can see the empty cell,

6 that's a fungal cell. It looks like a

7 vacuole. And it's surrounded by this

8 amorphous material. It's phenolic in nature. 

9 Phenols have antimicrobial properties.

10 Similarly, we found glucanases,

11 beta 13 glucanase. Fungi had glucan in their

12 cell wall. Glucanases attack fungi.

13 Here's an example showing foliar

14 application of silicon versus root

15 application. You can see the root worked

16 better than the foliar in these two different

17 systems. Brown spot on rice, soybean rust.

18 If you look at the brown spot on

19 rice a little closer, this is x-ray

20 microanalysis. If you look on the far left,

21 you look at the root silicon and the foliar

22 silica, the x-ray microanalysis is pretty
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1 similar.

2 But when you look on the underside

3 of the leaf which is on your right, you see

4 that the root -- the foliar silica is just

5 like the control. Which means that the

6 silicon was just sitting on top of the plant

7 tissue. It wasn't entering.

8 And here's an example of that. 

9 The blue bar shows you can quantify the

10 silicon in the plant tissue, it accumulated. 

11 And in the other two it did not. So it was

12 just sitting on top of the leaf surface.

13 So how does it work in disease

14 resistance? It probably plays a passive role

15 because you do get deposition below the

16 cuticle. But it's not continuous. So once it

17 gets through that cuticle, there's a mediator

18 response and all these defense sponsors are

19 up-regulated and they're active.

20 And so it plays an important role

21 in the suppression of plant diseases. Aqueous

22 potassium silicate has been shown
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1 experimentally and under field conditions to

2 do so.

3 And I think producers need as many

4 alternatives as they can to control their

5 plant diseases. And if you look at something

6 like copper, it's toxic to soils over time. 

7 Sulfur can burn. But those are two allowable

8 substances.

9 Potassium silicate is a great

10 alternative.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh, right on

12 the buzzer, Mac. Did you get that one? All

13 right, questions? Jay?

14 MR. FELDMAN: Can you talk more

15 about this being an alternative to the copper

16 sulfate or other materials that we're trying

17 to reduce in some context?

18 MR. DATNOFF: Well, you know,

19 potassium silicate could be used in

20 conjunction you know, if copper is maybe more

21 effective. I can't say if it is more

22 effective or not effective. But it's an
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1 alternative that could be used in a systems

2 approach.

3 So potassium silicate could be

4 used to process -- to suppress a disease as

5 similarly as copper could. So if you're using

6 potassium silicate in that system, you could

7 reduce the number of applications of copper.

8 And maybe even sulfur too. So, in

9 any system, if you want to manage plant

10 diseases, you want to look at the system as a

11 whole as you do in organic systems. You want

12 to look -- use the best host/plant resistance

13 that you can find.

14 You want to make sure that your

15 nutrition -- nutrition is the first front line

16 of plant defense. And we're starting to find

17 out in many cases, not only with silicon, but

18 with other elements, that you know, you have

19 a certain range that you need for plant

20 growth.

21 But when that plant is under

22 attack by a pathogen, then the requirement for
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1 that nutrient can go up. So you may need to

2 actually need more. Okay, so the nutrition is

3 the first front line of defense.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea?

5 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you for the

6 information. I've heard, although this is not

7 documented, it's just from farmers talking to

8 me. That the material as it would be used in

9 the field is quite alkaline and so alkaline

10 that it would interfere unless buffered in

11 some way. And other alternatives would be

12 more desirable because they have less of a pH

13 effect on when they're used.

14 And could you comment on -- or is

15 it used in conjunction with materials to

16 acidify it or is the alkalinity not a problem

17 in your experience?

18 MR. DATNOFF: Well, okay, so the

19 pH, I mean it is high. I mean there are those

20 and when we conducted experiments, we will use

21 other pH materials like potassium hydroxide

22 when compared to potassium silicate for you
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1 know, controlling a disease for an example.

2 And so we think in a foliar

3 application for disease suppression, it's

4 probably either the ion or the pH that is

5 having an effect against the pathogen. Okay,

6 so I don't see that as an issue.

7 If you use something like copper

8 you have to have consideration to using the

9 right equipment. And the same thing with

10 sulfur, to protect the person who is actually

11 using it, right? So I don't see that as an

12 issue, but I'm sure that the people from PQ

13 Corporation will address the buffering

14 capacity a little more.

15 You know, the one thing I didn't

16 get to talk about in great detail was that the

17 accumulation that I mentioned that in the past

18 it was considered that to be an accumulator

19 it's only in the foliage. But we're finding

20 that many plants accumulate only in the roots

21 and they don't really translocate up. We

22 don't understand really why.
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1 But for an example, like tomatoes,

2 we've shown that they can accumulate silicon

3 in the roots at around three percent just like

4 a rice plant does in its leaf tissue. And

5 we're not sure why, but we've conducted some

6 studies to show well we can reduce certain

7 soilborne diseases by knowing that.

8 We may not be able to protect the

9 foliar part as well, but the root part seems

10 to be well protected. So you need these other

11 alternatives, something like potassium

12 silicate, to come in to manage other foliar

13 diseases.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank

15 you very much Dr. Datnoff.

16 The next speaker is Kelly Pepper

17 and he'll be followed by David Moore.

18 MR. PEPPER: Good morning. I am

19 Kelly Pepper, manager of Texas Organic Cotton

20 Marketing Cooperative located in Lubbock,

21 Texas. First of all I want to give a great

22 big Texas thank you to each Board member and
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1 an extra measure to the four of you that are

2 going off.

3 Until I attended the last NOSB

4 Board meeting and learned more about the work

5 of the Board, I had no idea of the time

6 commitment involved in your service. Thank

7 you.

8 On to the reason I'm here. 

9 Hydrogen chloride. Nasty stuff. I'm not

10 going to try to convince you otherwise.

11 But unfortunately I have to be

12 here asking you to renew its inclusion on the

13 National List because currently its use for

14 delinting cotton seed for planting is

15 absolutely essential to organic cotton

16 production in the United States. Let me

17 explain.

18 Our cooperative has approximately

19 35 active members located in the plains of

20 northwest Texas, who produce 80 to 90 percent

21 of the organic cotton grown in the U.S. In

22 2014 our members produced -- planted 19
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1 thousand acres of organic cotton. In

2 contrast, there were 11 million acres of

3 non-organic cotton planted in the U.S., 96

4 percent of which were GMO.

5 Close to half of the U.S. acres

6 are in our northwest Texas area. So our

7 organic cotton acres are only about 0.3

8 percent of the cotton acres in our area and

9 0.17 percent of the cotton acres in the U.S.

10 The cotton industry laughingly

11 says if you round the numbers, organic cotton

12 is zero. Availability of planting seed is a

13 huge issue for our producers because we're so

14 small. No seed company will provide organic

15 seed and there's only a limited amount of

16 non-GMO seed available from which our farmers

17 can obtain non-treated seed.

18 None of the major seed/chemical

19 companies really sell non-GMO cotton seed. 

20 There are only a couple of small seed

21 companies that will supply our growers with

22 untreated, non-GMO seed. And this seed is
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1 delinted with hydrogen chloride as is all the

2 seed sold in our area.

3 The volume of seed required for

4 our organic production is not enough to cause

5 seed companies to do anything different just

6 for organic. If as was suggested yesterday,

7 hydrogen chloride should be de-listed to

8 provide a financial incentive to develop an

9 alternative, organic cotton production in the

10 U.S. would cease and most of the acres would

11 likely return to conventional production.

12 As was mentioned in our and

13 other's written comments as well as in

14 testimony here yesterday, there's a promising

15 mechanical delinting alternative to hydrogen

16 chloride under development by the USDA

17 Agricultural Research Service. We would

18 certainly encourage and appreciate anything

19 this Board and NOP can do to promote this

20 research and speed along development of

21 mechanical delinting.

22 However, to eliminate organic
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1 cotton growers need for the exemption for the

2 use of hydrogen chloride, mechanical delinting

3 will have to be developed to the point of

4 adoption by the cotton planting seed industry. 

5 Because as outlined above, the volume of seed

6 for organic production alone is not enough to

7 entice seed companies to change their method

8 of delinting.

9 Let me put the use of hydrogen

10 chloride for delinting cotton seed in

11 perspective environmentally. It takes only

12 about 0.07 pounds of hydrogen chloride to

13 delint enough cotton seed to plant an acre of

14 organic cotton.

15 However, if this same acre of land

16 were planted to GMO cotton, it would be

17 treated with six to eight pounds of active

18 ingredient of pesticides. That is 100 times

19 as much pesticides as hydrogen chloride. 

20 Additionally, 100 to 500 pounds of chemical

21 fertilizer would be applied to this acre.

22 I'll be glad to answer any
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1 questions if you have any.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

3 Questions? Jay?

4 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. Thank

5 you so much for making the trip. And you

6 know, this presents a dilemma. We talked

7 about this problem and I think you framed it

8 really well for the Board.

9 My only concern is the change in

10 the sunset process. And not keeping the

11 pressure up on the industry. And I realize

12 it's outside your control, but the industry as

13 it grows to advance the mechanical practices.

14 What do you think will incentivize

15 the transition to the mechanical practices?

16 MR. PEPPER: Well I don't think

17 anybody in the cotton industry at large

18 probably is crazy about hydrogen chloride. 

19 And so I think the seed companies are closely

20 watching the research.

21 And if it can be proven to be

22 effective. And I mean there's some issues to
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1 be addressed. You know, historically

2 mechanical delinting has damaged germination. 

3 And I think that's the problem with Kincer's

4 method that had been mentioned in some of the

5 information.

6 But if the issues can be

7 addressed, I look for the industry as a whole

8 to be very interested in adopting it. It's

9 just -- it's got to prove itself and get

10 there.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

12 much for your comments.

13 MR. PEPPER: Thank you.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

15 speaker is David Moore and he'll be followed

16 by Lynn Coody.

17 MR. MOORE: Good morning

18 everybody. My name's David Moore. I'm a

19 California licensed agricultural pest control

20 advisor and qualified applicator and I work

21 for Neudorff.

22 I want to thank both the NOP and
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1 the NOSB for their time and commitment. I'm

2 here to thank all of you all for your patience

3 as you consider ferric phosphate yet again. 

4 I especially want to thank the crop

5 subcommittee's members for their diligence and

6 forbearance.

7 Sunset is rather a loaded subject

8 lately, so I particularly thank you for

9 allowing the recent review and votes to stand. 

10 The recent review and votes affirm that ferric

11 phosphate meets the three primary criteria of 

12 OFBA, compatibility and consistency,

13 essentiality and the absence of adverse

14 effects on human health and environment.

15 No new information to the contrary

16 has been presented. The 2012 subcommittee

17 board and Board votes speak for themselves at

18 5 to 3 and 12 to 3 respectively.

19 After hearing so many speakers

20 yesterday point out how difficult it is to get

21 growers and other stakeholders to become

22 involved, I'm gratified by the incredible
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1 outpouring of support ferric phosphate

2 received during the public comment period. 

3 For the record, that was two growers. But we

4 got almost -- we got seven in 2012.

5 I'll be even more gratified that

6 an organic grower has traveled from California

7 to be here today to voice that support in

8 person. I know that grower support is far

9 more important to you all than anything I can

10 say, so I'm going to shut up about ferric

11 phosphate and let a certified organic farmer

12 speak to this important material in the first

13 person.

14 Before I sit down though, I want

15 to encourage everybody in this room to take a

16 minute while you're here in Louisville this

17 week to thank, to shake hands with an FFA

18 student or a faculty advisor as I've been

19 doing this week. There are 70 some thousand

20 of these people -- young men and women here

21 this week demonstrating their commitment to

22 American agriculture.
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1 And if I may restate the obvious,

2 they are the future of farming and they should

3 have our support and encouragement. Thank you 

4 for your support of ferric phosphate and

5 organic agriculture.

6 And Mr. Secretary Stone, I have a

7 label for you for an organic Hawaiian ant

8 product. Thank you.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

10 Questions? Jay?

11 MR. FELDMAN: Thanks for coming to 

12 the meeting, I appreciate it. I'd like to

13 talk to you a little bit about EDTA and that

14 ingredient in ferric phosphate.

15 Are you -- can I ask you questions

16 about that?

17 MR. MOORE: Absolutely.

18 MR. FELDMAN: Okay, perfect. 

19 Obviously, as a Board we're concerned about

20 both the active and inert ingredients in

21 materials and the Board several years ago

22 proposed and recommended a process of
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1 reviewing inert ingredients. EDTA is on that

2 list of inert ingredients.

3 And we are -- you know, there will

4 be some process at some point down the road

5 hopefully. My question is whether you all

6 have explored other ingredients, inert

7 ingredients? Whether you're working with

8 design for the environment in EPA?

9 Are aware of that program and

10 efforts to remove the more highly toxic inert

11 ingredients to find more innocuous materials

12 that serve the same purpose? Whether you

13 internally as a company are looking at that?

14 Or, and this is just a three-part

15 question, or do you not view EDTA as an inert

16 ingredient and that the efficacy of the

17 product is diminished or it goes away if that

18 particular ingredient is not in there, given

19 your patent, which seems to imply, the patent

20 on the product seems to imply that the EDTA as

21 you're using it has active properties, active

22 ingredient properties under EPA's definition
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1 of a registered pesticide?

2 MR. MOORE: Let me see if I can

3 keep all three parts straight.

4 MR. FELDMAN: Okay, thank you.

5 MR. MOORE: Yes, we're very much

6 aware of the review process. And as you

7 probably know, we have in fact petitioned for

8 a different chelator. That petition is in

9 abeyance right now. We're eagerly awaiting

10 the process.

11 And we indeed from the very

12 beginning have examined the issues of other

13 alternative inert ingredients. We're a very

14 forward looking company.

15 We're very committed to our role

16 as a provider of reduced risk and organic

17 products. And we will move forward with

18 making ferric phosphate available as an

19 effective tool for the organic grower with any

20 coming changes in the inert list.

21 And for the record, I just want to

22 point out for anybody who may not know this,
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1 EDTA is currently an allowed List 4

2 ingredient.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other

4 questions?

5 MR. MOORE: Thank you.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

7 Next speaker is Lynn Coody and she'll be

8 followed by Will.

9 MS. COODY: Good morning. My name

10 is Lynn Coody and I'm presenting today for the

11 Organic Produce Wholesalers Coalition which we

12 call the OPWC.

13 The OPWC is comprised of ten

14 businesses that distribute fresh organic

15 produce to customers located across the United

16 States and internationally. Our combined

17 annual sales in 2013 exceeded $625 million.

18 I have a few different topics to

19 speak on today. The first topic is assessment

20 of soil building practices.

21 OPWC sees soil conservation as a

22 cornerstone of organic farming. In our
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1 experience there is a wide range in the

2 practices used to manage soil health on

3 certified organic farms.

4 And we think that a clarification

5 of the interpretation and application of these

6 standards would be particularly helpful within

7 the produce market. Therefore, we welcome

8 discussion of implementation of the NOP

9 standards that maintain and improve soil

10 quality.

11 OPWC does not favor the approach

12 of relying on quantitative soil assessment

13 tools in the certification process. We note

14 that certification standards are generally

15 framed with qualitative practice space

16 language making them applicable to a wide

17 range of conditions for growing a wide range

18 of crops.

19 In our opinion, quantitative

20 assessment of soil conservation such as NRCS

21 tools may be useful in providing secondary

22 documentation of an erosion problem such as 
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1 if a noncompliance on this specific topic is

2 difficult to resolve between a certifier and

3 a grower. Instead of a metric-based approach,

4 we suggest that a focus on training and

5 education of certification personnel is more

6 in line with the NOP's efforts to reach a

7 sound and sensible balance when implementing

8 soil quality standards.

9 Topic two, peracetic acid. OPWC

10 supports relisting peracetic acid accompanying

11 by its current annotation. Our members are

12 particularly interested in materials that help

13 ensure food safety because we handle many

14 products that are consumed uncooked.

15 Peracetic acid has two distinct

16 uses in organic produce handling as a post

17 harvest handling material that may be used in

18 wash water without subsequent rinse. And as

19 a sanitizer on food contact surfaces. We

20 consider both these uses for peracetic acid to

21 be essential to our sector as we have very few

22 sanitizers that may be used on organic
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1 produce.

2 Peracetic acid is in current use

3 within the produce sector. For example, this

4 material is considered a preferred option for

5 washing apples after they are harvested. For

6 many produce commodities, it is the

7 disinfectant of choice.

8 Topic Three, protecting against

9 contamination in farm inputs. OPWC supports

10 the goal of this discussion document to

11 protect against contamination of organic farms

12 by inputs that may contain materials that are

13 prohibited under NOP standards.

14 That said, we caution the

15 subcommittee against making recommendations

16 that impose requirements on crop producers

17 that as a lever for fixing problems that

18 originate in conventional agricultural,

19 industrial or societal systems. In our

20 opinion, such actions would place undue

21 burdens on the very growers who are already

22 implementing many practices that support
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1 environmental, ecological and human health.

2 In an effort to move the

3 discussion forward in a practical direction,

4 we have three suggestions. Focusing

5 subcommittee discussions with experts on

6 solutions that are practical for

7 implementation by organic farming operations. 

8 And that are verifiable through normal means,

9 accessible to organic inspectors and

10 certifying agents.

11 Emphasizing agricultural practices

12 as the primary focus for mitigating

13 contamination. And identifying specific

14 research topics related to mitigation of

15 chemical contaminants, especially through the

16 composting process.

17 OPWC appreciates the efforts of

18 both the NOSB and the NOP to clarify the

19 implementation of organic standards. We give

20 thanks for the work of the members that are

21 leaving the Board. And thank you very much

22 for the opportunity to comment.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you Lynn. 

2 Questions? Thank you very much.

3 MS. COODY: Okay.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

5 speaker is Will Fantle and he'll be followed

6 by Robert Larose.

7 MR. FANTLE: My name is Will

8 Fantle. I'm the Co-Founder/Co-Director of the

9 Cornucopia Institute. I'm from Wisconsin.

10 I want to thank the Board members

11 that are departing for their service. I know

12 the workload is probably more than you

13 anticipated. We appreciate your service to

14 the organic community.

15 There was some good news announced

16 at the beginning of this meeting and I want to

17 acknowledge that. That good news includes the

18 new Chair, a validated Chair of the NOSB. And

19 we think that's a positive step forward

20 acknowledging that it is the NOSB that chairs

21 these meetings. So kudos Madam Chair.

22 The policy and procedures
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1 subcommittee being reactivated after its

2 untimely demise earlier this year. We think

3 that is another positive step going forward.

4 The critical task that they're

5 being given to develop a process for

6 annotations is very important. It's going to

7 be important to you as you consider materials

8 for renewal, reuse, new materials.

9 These materials may need some type

10 of annotation to be approved for continued use

11 in organics. An annotation that focuses and

12 limits their specific uses.

13 Okay. Let's talk about some other 

14 issues. Sunset. You've heard a lot about it. 

15 I'm going to harken to an event that happened

16 earlier this morning. At 8:05 a.m. in

17 Louisville.

18 Sunrise. If you go outside and

19 look around, that transition that occurred at

20 sunrise, it's no longer dark out. We

21 understand what the meaning of those concepts

22 are. And I think that Amy Simpson provided a
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1 very clear and detailed presentation to you

2 regarding sunset, the legalities, what the law

3 means, what the law doesn't mean.

4 And I think it's incumbent upon

5 you as a Board to keep pushing the program to

6 revise the changes that were, we believe,

7 wrongly implemented in September 2013. And as

8 you do that, and I encourage the program as

9 well as they potentially revisit this, think

10 long and hard about this.

11 There are organizations like ours

12 that are working on legal remedies. And

13 looking at taking action on those. The TR's

14 that are going to be required for the 2017

15 materials, you have a daunting list in front

16 of you.

17 All that immense number of

18 materials to examine and look at. You need

19 good TR's. We're not convinced as an

20 organization, which we outlined in our report,

21 the Organic Watergate, that some of the

22 initial TR's and tap reviews that were done,
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1 were adequate, sufficient and not biased. 

2 Please make an effort to get good TR's as you

3 weigh the need for those materials.

4 Enforcement. Miles says it's

5 working. Sometimes it's not. And I'm going

6 to again reference something I've talked about

7 before here, the Shamrock Organic Factory

8 Dairy in Arizona.

9 We filed a complaint in October

10 2008 on this operation. By 2011, October

11 2011, the USDA finally acknowledged the merit

12 of that complaint and moved to initiate

13 enforcement activities against that operation.

14 Three years later, we're 2014,

15 this operation is still in business because

16 they appealed it. So six years after we filed

17 our complaint based on evidence we gathered

18 from our direct visits to that operation,

19 they're still producing what's called

20 certified organic milk.

21 That is not an example of

22 something that is working. Origin of
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1 livestock, an issue that is important to the

2 dairy and beef community.

3 In April 2010, we were told by the

4 program director that it's a priority for the

5 agency. We still wait. Years have gone by. 

6 And now we're told next year.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you Will. 

8 Questions, comments? Great, thank you.

9 The next speaker is Robert Larose

10 and he'll be followed by Terry Gong.

11 MR. LAROSE: Good morning. My

12 name's Rob Larose. I'm the President of

13 BioSafe Systems and I'm here to support two of

14 our products, peracetic acid and sodium

15 peroxycarbonate, which is essentially, we call

16 it sodium percarbonate.

17 The sodium percarbonate product,

18 under our trade name Green Clean Pro, is used

19 as an algicide, bactericide and fungicide. It

20 has been very well received in the organic

21 community and the conventional grower

22 community.
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1 I should point out that BioSafe

2 Systems is a bit of a different company in the

3 sense that 95 percent of our products are

4 organics or listed products. 90 percent of

5 our customers though are conventional growers.

6 So generally what that means is we

7 don't take on a product and develop a product

8 unless it actually works. And it will stand

9 up in both industries.

10 You know, there's sodium

11 percarbonate was listed and developed as an

12 alternative to copper sulfate. And it has

13 shown very good efficacy in the field.

14 Primarily we sell a lot of

15 material into the rice industry up in

16 Sacramento where they are concerned about

17 bioaccumulation of copper sulfate and

18 resistance issues. And so the industry at

19 large supports it.

20 Peroxyacetic acid, we were one of

21 the first companies to introduce it into

22 agriculture and horticulture. Very broad
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1 applications across the board either as a

2 foliar treatment or as a hard surface

3 sanitizer or a water treatment.

4 Peroxyacetic acid is essentially

5 hydrogen peroxide coupled with acetic acid. 

6 Both of these products have zero waste when

7 they're manufactured. They're -- peroxyacetic

8 acid is also NSF listed and kosher certified.

9 So we -- many -- or both of these

10 products have become standards in many of the

11 organic farming operations. And what's coming

12 into the picture quickly is the Food Safety

13 Modernization Act. Both of these products are

14 going to be key players in solving food safety

15 issues.

16 Many growers right now are using

17 our Green Clean Pro Product to treat for algae

18 in their containment ponds for irrigation. 

19 And helping them meet the discharge

20 limitations.

21 And interestingly enough, we just

22 completed many trials that shows that there's
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1 also reduction in pathogens in the water. So

2 as these new regulations kick into gear, it's

3 going to be very important for food safety for

4 both water treatment and also as a sanitizer.

5 Another interesting point on

6 peroxyacetic acid, on the conventional side,

7 we're making applications prior to harvest to

8 further reduce the potential for food -- human

9 pathogens on the produce. And that has proven

10 very, very effective.

11 So you know, it takes a while to

12 develop these methods, products and

13 applications. And this sunset process is a

14 little challenging for us because it takes at

15 least five years to be able to get the data

16 and develop it and get it out into the hands

17 of people to show the benefits and more

18 importantly, how to get the most out of the

19 product when they're using it.

20 So you know, that's why I'm here.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

22 MR. LAROSE: Any questions?
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Does he get a

2 price for starting one second -- or stopping

3 one second before?

4 MR. LAROSE: I have an iPad that's

5 got a counter on here, so it works extremely

6 well.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right, Zea?

8 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you for

9 coming today. Regarding the sodium carbonate

10 peroxyhydrate, in the comments you submitted

11 for our last meeting, San Antonio, Texas, you

12 made a statement that -- and because I pulled

13 it up in front of me here. It says in 2014

14 copper labels have been restricted to a label

15 that is rendered useless when treating algae.

16 I asked a couple of organic rice

17 growers and I tried to look online for the

18 documentation behind this statement. And can

19 you just explain in what way they've been

20 restricted and why it's useless?

21 MR. LAROSE: Well, what they're --

22 what that letter was speaking to is that
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1 copper sulfate, because the California DPR is

2 concerned about bioaccumulation, they

3 restricted the amount of poundage that can be

4 used during the course of the season. To the

5 point where if you have a bad algae season,

6 you can't get enough product out there to

7 actually do the work.

8 Where on our product, there is no

9 restrictions.

10 MS. SONNABEND: Do you know what

11 they restricted it to? What poundage?

12 MR. LAROSE: I don't. I don't

13 have that number in front of me, but I do --

14 MS. SONNABEND: Okay. Because the

15 rice growers didn't seem to know about it.

16 MR. LAROSE: I can get that to the

17 Committee very easily.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other

19 questions? Thank you very much.

20 MR. LAROSE: Thank you.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Next speaker is

22 Terry Gong and he'll be followed by Gerald
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1 Davis.

2 MR. GONG: Hi, my name's Terry

3 Gong. And I am a managing partner in Harvest

4 Systems International and Earth Renaissance

5 Technologies.

6 In addition to my original

7 petition for sulfurous acid, subsequent

8 comments and oral remarks I made during the

9 NOSB meeting held in San Antonio, Texas, I'm

10 here to advocate continuing to keep sulfurous 

11 acid on the approved materials list, address

12 some of the issues raised by those wanting to

13 have it removed and to answer any possible

14 questions the NOSB may have.

15 First, in response to the claim

16 that sulfurous acid should be removed as a

17 synthetic sulfate fertilizer, the primary use

18 of sulfurous acid is to restore the acidifying

19 component back to irrigation water by

20 providing a delayed release of acidity in the

21 form of bisulfite so it can be carried and

22 delivered to amend and control the pH of the
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1 soil-water solution that's ideal for the crop

2 being grown.

3 The actual transformation of

4 bisulfite into sulfate is the result of a

5 microbial process performed by chemotrophic

6 bacteria, a precursor bacterial group that

7 obtain their energy directly from inorganic

8 electron-donating compounds that cause the

9 hydrogen proton to release and the formation

10 of sulfate to occur.

11 Number two. In response to the

12 claim that the use of sulfurous acid would

13 harm and degrade soil microbial populations,

14 while it is true that bisulfite chemically

15 acts as an oxygen reducer scavenger which can

16 be biocidal, this property is very limited and

17 does not kill all soil microbes. A closer

18 more detailed examination of this material

19 indicates that its use would actually result

20 in increasing the overall population density

21 and complexity of soil organisms that make up

22 the entire soil food web.
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1 This is because once the

2 chemotrophic bacteria utilize it, the hydrogen

3 proton releases in the sulfite has been

4 converted to sulfate. The biosoluble property

5 no longer exists. The sulfur becomes a

6 nutrient for soil microbes and plants.

7 The soil minerals dissolve and

8 become soluble nutrients as a result of the

9 release of acidity. Additional pore space is

10 created, reopened, maintained and water

11 penetrates deeper, salts leach away from the

12 root zone and the pH of the soil lowers.

13 Oxygen and carbon dioxide

14 penetrates and exchanges deeper into the soil. 

15 And under these conditions, the population

16 density and activity of the soil microbes

17 flourish, resulting in a net increase in

18 fertility and ability for the soil to

19 sequester more carbon in the organic form as

20 food and fiber.

21 In response, and I want to thank

22 the person who spoke earlier for making these
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1 points because I view those comments as a

2 constructive criticism because we all want to

3 be better. Okay. In response to the claims

4 of human health, first, the material itself,

5 sulfurous acid, when you drink wine, you're

6 drinking a more concentrated form of sulfurous

7 acid. So as far as human health goes, if you

8 don't -- if you drink too much of it, then you

9 have a problem.

10 Okay. Worker safety operations. 

11 Our equipment has been in use for nearly 60

12 years. And our company provides operational

13 information and training seminars to our

14 customers. And we'll always continue to seek

15 ways to improve the safe and proper operation

16 of our equipment and the production of the

17 sulfurous acid whenever we can.

18 Regarding emissions. While our

19 company invented and pioneered the onsite

20 generation of SO2 sulfurous acid to amend

21 irrigation water, there are other versions of

22 this equipment.
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1 I was almost finished. But --

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Do you want to

3 finish your last sentence or whatever it is?

4 MR. GONG: Well, okay. I was

5 going to say that our equipment has been

6 tested to only release .11 of a pound in a 24

7 hour period of time which is well below the

8 current EPA air quality regulatory standards

9 which allows two pounds of fugitive material

10 to be released in a 24 hour period of time.

11 That answers one of the reasons

12 why there hasn't been much information

13 regarding air quality emissions. Because

14 we're so effective in scrubbing the SO2.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

16 Questions? No. Thank you very much.

17 MR. GONG: Thank you.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

19 speaker is Gerald Davis and he'll be followed

20 by Brian Neufeld.

21 MR. DAVIS: My name is Gerald

22 Davis. I represent Grimmway Farms, Cal
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1 Organic in California. Former NOSB Board

2 member and crop subcommittee chair for a

3 couple of years back in 2005 to 2010.

4 Most people know us growing a lot

5 of carrots. We grow potatoes, tomatoes,

6 onions, lots of veg crops like broccoli,

7 spinach, radishes, lettuce and 30 other

8 different vegetable crops.

9 I wanted to bring up my testimony

10 written and oral from the last spring meeting

11 about sulfurous acid. Again, pointing out

12 that we use this as a water treatment process.

13 We need to neutralize the

14 bicarbonate in the water. The levels that we

15 have in the West in our farm is not unusual. 

16 It's a broad problem of 150 to 350 parts per

17 million of bicarbonate in our irrigation water

18 that is coming from groundwater sources.

19 It's just the way it is in the

20 West. And when that bicarbonate is watered

21 onto the fields, it becomes limestone and

22 perpetual 300 to 500 pound per acre per crop
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1 applications of limestone are very harmful to

2 crops eventually.

3 So we have to neutralize it

4 someway. And that's what I'm here to talk

5 about is the sulfurous acid produced by the

6 sulfur burners has worked very well for us.

7 Before we were able to use them,

8 we used elemental sulfur, which was not very

9 effective. It led to very highly elevated

10 sulfate levels in the soil which were not

11 particularly harmful, but not good. And it

12 didn't really lower the pH. This material is

13 not designed to lower pH directly in the soil. 

14 It just keeps you from adding more and more

15 limestone when you don't need it. That's the

16 point I wanted to make.

17 We also grow lots of cover crops,

18 that's sesbania, incorporation of vetch to

19 give organic matter to help in the -- which is

20 a material mentioned in your material about

21 helping acidify soils. We do that.

22 Artichoke flower, it has nothing
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1 to do with this, but I thought it looked good. 

2 Really, the bottom line is this is not

3 unsustainable. This is not Grimmway's venture

4 into aquiculture. These are spreading basins

5 for our local water district that recharges

6 groundwater.

7 This year and last year they were

8 completely dry. We're in a drought. There's

9 an aerial view of one of them. There's 1350

10 acres total in our district where they, in

11 surplus water years, they recharge our

12 groundwater. So we do not deplete it.

13 There's a higher aerial view of

14 the same thing. There are some of our ranches

15 in the black areas that are right around that

16 water district recharge. Broader view of

17 California.

18 Here's the point. These are

19 sustainable practices of pumping groundwater. 

20 This shows what the district has done to

21 maintain the groundwater level since they

22 started recharge in the mid 60's.
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1 You can see that by the top line

2 it has stayed static. And pretty much, and

3 that's -- the blue lines are years of surplus

4 water where they are adding water and the red

5 lines are when they're taken out.

6 Quick mention on sulfur. When the

7 NOSB looked at this the first time, we

8 consulted this thing on sulfur. We learned

9 that sulfur is no longer a natural material. 

10 And since 19 -- since 2000 when this mine went

11 out of business, that was the end of domestic

12 natural sulfur production by the Frasch

13 process.

14 And I'd love to answer any more

15 questions about that because sulfur as

16 mentioned in your top as a natural

17 alternative, is not natural. It is synthetic. 

18 Any questions?

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Questions? 

20 Harold?

21 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you. Earlier

22 today during the public comment, there was
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1 mention of the possibility of just simply

2 using more water to flood the ground, to flush

3 the bicarbonates and the salt physically out

4 of the soil profile so that this -- the

5 sulfurous acid or the sulfur burners wouldn't

6 have to be used.

7 How practical of an approach is

8 that?

9 MR. DAVIS: Excess ground --

10 excess irrigation to leach salts is practiced

11 and we do it all the time. It does not leach

12 away the excess limestone that you add with

13 this water.

14 So it is a related issue. But --

15 and the sulfur burners do help with that. But

16 the main thing is we cannot keep adding more

17 and more limestone to our already alkaline

18 soils. It eventually forces you to do

19 something about it over and beyond what you

20 can just do with compost or elemental sulfur.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Follow up?

22 MR. AUSTIN: I'll follow up with
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1 that. So the actual practical usage of the

2 sulfur burners, the sulfurous acid is really

3 to take and remove the bicarbonate out of the

4 water to help treat the water and then the

5 soil. And it's removing that contaminate

6 before it ever reaches the soil, is that

7 correct?

8 MR. DAVIS: That's the overall

9 approach. That's the most important part of

10 the usage. It's not acidifying soils

11 directly, it's just eliminating that continual

12 addition of limestone which is deleterious in

13 our soil conditions.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jay?

15 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. And

16 thank you, Gerald, for your service on the

17 NOSB. I have a question for you, Gerald. One

18 more question, sorry.

19 Thank you for your service on the

20 NOSB.

21 MR. DAVIS: Yes, you're welcome.

22 MR. FELDMAN: I have a -- just ask
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1 you to switch gears since you're up there

2 already. I wanted to ask you about sodium

3 nitrate and what the status of that is as you

4 understand it right now, and whether it's

5 being used, and if there's any change in the

6 rate of application and so forth.

7 MR. DAVIS: Well that's kind of an

8 evolving, interesting subject. When sodium

9 nitrate was voted off of the -- well, put on

10 a prohibited natural status a few years ago,

11 our company ceased using it.

12 And for two to three years we

13 studied the effects of not being able to use

14 it. In some cases the crops did better. 

15 Certain crops do fine and actually do pretty

16 good without it. Others we noticed

17 significant drops in production and quality.

18 It was pointed out to us earlier

19 this year that people are still using this

20 material because it was never dropped from the

21 list. And we started asking questions on when

22 will that be dealt with? And well no one
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1 seems to know. For now it's not. So we were

2 actually considering using it again for the

3 time being until a resolution is reached.

4 MR. FELDMAN: Thanks.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

6 Next -- the next speaker is Brian Neufeld and

7 he'll be followed by Paul Baker. And we're

8 running about 30 minutes behind just as a sort

9 of a time check for you.

10 MR. NEUFELD: Good morning. My

11 name is Brian Neufeld. I'm an organic farmer

12 in California, San Joaquin Valley, primarily. 

13 And we grow citrus, blueberries and table

14 grapes organically.

15 I'm here to talk about sulfur

16 burners as well. And my goal is to continue

17 the allowance of the use of sulfur burners in

18 organic production.

19 And there's a quote that, I came

20 across an email a few years ago that I thought

21 was interesting. And I don't know who came up

22 with the quote, but it says whatever our
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1 accomplishments, our sophistication or

2 artistic pretension, we owe our very existence

3 to a six-inch layer of top soil and the fact

4 it rains.

5 And the fact that it rains is

6 becoming a more and more of a difficulty in

7 California. So we need to focus on our soil

8 and the water that we do have.

9 The use of sulfur burners for ag

10 production, I feel has enhanced the richness

11 and the fertility of the soil since our

12 allowance of use. Particularly over the last

13 four years, we've been implementing this

14 strategy.

15 And I have three reasons why I

16 think we should continue the use. First is

17 soil health. As it was mentioned earlier, a

18 healthy soil leads to a healthy plant. And

19 healthy plant leads to good production. And

20 we're all about healthy plants.

21 Good soil health consists of

22 quality organic matter at optimum pH levels. 
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1 Ideal growing soil pH range from five and a

2 half to seven depending on the crop that

3 you're growing.

4 And this is proofed by the regular

5 soil analysis that we have done biannually to

6 check that. Applying high pH water to the

7 soil diminishes our soil fertility.

8 The second point is it's an

9 economic water quality issue. This is the

10 most economic and efficient method of lowering

11 our water pH, is by injecting the material

12 from the sulfurous acid.

13 The drought conditions in

14 California have magnified the need to treat

15 water as our diminishing aquifers and water --

16 surface water supplies have an increasing pH

17 level with high bicarbonates and concentrated

18 toxic metals.

19 Continual acidified water is

20 necessary to combat the effects of these

21 toxicities. We have invested within our

22 organization over $300,000 worth of capital
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1 into the equipment to perform this over the

2 last four years.

3 As far as safety, sulfurous acid

4 is a safe material to handle. I have

5 personally cleaned out some tanks that had

6 sulfurous acid in it, and not even as much as

7 a skin irritation has happened.

8 My third point, improving water

9 quality by adding heat to the natural sulfur. 

10 Sulfur is an element that is allowed for use. 

11 The only difference with this is it comes in

12 a pelletized form. It gets heated and it is

13 more efficiently utilized than a soil sulfur

14 spread.

15 And you really do not use a whole

16 lot of this material either, depending on the

17 size of the operation. You could use as much

18 as half a pellet's worth of material

19 throughout an entire growing season as it's a

20 slow burning material. And the emissions are

21 very low as you can hardly notice any

22 emissions coming out of the top of this smoke
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1 stack.

2 So just to summarize, use of

3 sulfur burners for organic production I feel

4 improves our soil health. Economically

5 improves our water quality. And that's all.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

7 much. Questions? Great. Thank you.

8 Paul, you're up next and after

9 that is Gisela Wittenborn.

10 MR. BAKER: Good morning. Thanks,

11 I'm Paul Baker. I represent Sweetwater. Oh

12 great. Yes, red button?

13 My name is Paul Baker, thanks for

14 the opportunity to speak. I represent

15 Sweetwater. I speak on behalf of thousands of

16 acres of organic farmers in arid regions who

17 would be devastated by the removal of

18 sulfurous acid.

19 Today I will emphasize the scale

20 of the problem sulfurous addresses. Why

21 alternatives are not sufficient. And human

22 health concerns surrounding sulfurous.
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1 Sulfurous is used on a wide

2 variety of cash and row crops. Contrary to

3 the popular notion that it's only for large

4 farms, more than 70 percent of our clients are

5 smaller than 50 acres.

6 Many farmers have invested large

7 capital and infrastructure and they would not

8 be able to justify that without results. Over

9 60 percent of the planet's soil is alkaline. 

10 The central issue for farmers in these regions

11 is how salt affects their ability to farm. 

12 Irrigation water adds thousands of salts per

13 acre per year, every year on top of already

14 alkaline conditions.

15 There is a notion that sulfurous

16 decreases aeration. Alkali water decreases

17 aeration. Sulfurous is the cure to that,

18 increasing porosity by leaching those salts

19 out.

20 Is sulfurous safe? Yes. It is

21 safe to handle and produce. I've brought a

22 sample of sulfurous and a sample of water. 
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1 Can you tell the difference? I cannot. 

2 Sulfurous is safe to handle and to produce.

3 We agree that sulfurous generation

4 must be produced safely and prepare and

5 advocate for that safe use through risk

6 assessments, warning labels, onsite training,

7 manuals and more, which we would be happy to

8 provide. We have had zero reported incidences

9 with this equipment in our company's history

10 over tens of thousands of acres of usage.

11 There are several alternatives to

12 sulfurous, but none are impactful enough to

13 handle salt in the volume that it comes down. 

14 I want you to turn your attention to these

15 pictures here.

16 These pictures show organic

17 cucumbers using citric acid and organic

18 cucumbers using sulfurous acid just three

19 weeks later. Cost about $3,000 a week with

20 citric. And you can see the yellowing on the

21 ends of leaves indicating lower health. Cost

22 with sulfurous about $200.
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1 Another alternative for sulfurous

2 is elemental sulfur, which folks that use it,

3 simply do not see results. Most of them will

4 use it in conjunction with sulfurous acid.

5 The environmental impact of

6 sulfurous acid, all of the organic production

7 combined with sulfur burners today, would

8 equate about 30 seconds of naturally occurring

9 sulfur dioxide emissions from volcanic

10 activity. Salt represents a threat to

11 sustainable agriculture on over a majority of

12 the world's soils.

13 Small organic farmers who have

14 invested in this infrastructure would be

15 restricted to make a choice of leaving organic

16 altogether if this were eliminated. So we

17 urge strongly from behalf of my colleagues and

18 friends in this industry, please continue to

19 support sulfurous acid as it is the tool that

20 we can possibly use to fight off this massive

21 problem.

22 And thanks for your time. Any
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1 questions?

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Questions?

3 MR. BAKER: Yes, there.

4 MS. SONNABEND: You mentioned

5 about the scale of the operations that -- a

6 variety of scales of operations that this is

7 appropriate for. And I imagine when a grower

8 approaches you about getting this equipment,

9 they would like to see a cost-benefit analysis

10 of their purchase.

11 So I'm wondering what you think

12 the smallest scale that this would be a

13 realistic benefit to install would be? What

14 would be the smallest scale grower that might

15 consider this?

16 MR. BAKER: Right. I was talking

17 to a farmer just last night about how they

18 could use this on two acres or less. And that

19 would be very difficult for us to retail

20 equipment and put infrastructure onsite. 

21 That's impractical.

22 What would be practical is one
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1 unit servicing an area. Delivering --

2 bringing equipment to the site, producing the

3 required product and having a day, a week or

4 a monthly tank supplying the product.

5 So it can be actually used for

6 very small applications if you have enough

7 growers in an area. But most of our farmers

8 like I said, are 50 acres or less.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

10 questions? Thank you very much.

11 MR. BAKER: Thank you.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Next speaker is

13 Gisela Wittenborn and she'll be followed by

14 Richard Bennett.

15 MS. WITTENBORN: Good morning, I'm

16 Gisela Wittenborn. I'm here to comment on

17 sulfurous acid and ferric phosphate. I am

18 working as an agronomist PCA for a third

19 generation family farm growing table grapes in

20 California's southern central valley.

21 The hot semiarid climate and long

22 sunny days are ideal for growing quality table
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1 grapes. However, the farming system does rely

2 on irrigation and high bicarbonate levels in

3 the irrigation water can be very challenging.

4 Especially during the current

5 drought, some vineyards depend heavily on

6 water with excessive bicarbonates and a pH of

7 eight or higher, which is really very high. 

8 This is a problem that people who are working

9 in more humid regions might not be familiar

10 with.

11 Irrigation water with excessive

12 bicarbonate concentration and a high pH

13 precipitates calcium as a plant-available

14 calcium carbonate, the limestone, while sodium

15 cations take their place in the clay

16 particles. This leads to the dispersal of

17 clay particles and the collapse of good porous

18 soil aggregate structure, turning the soil

19 into concrete, impeding water infiltration,

20 aeration and nutrient uptake. 

21 Sulfurous acid gained from sulfur

22 burning and mixed into the irrigation water
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1 amends the situation and complies with the

2 criteria for organic production. The burning

3 of elemental sulfur is an environmentally

4 benign, safe and effective procedure.

5 We use this technique where the

6 water analysis demands it and only use a

7 quantity that is prescribed to correct the

8 excessive pH and/or bicarbonate problem, and

9 ensure that the soil fauna is not impacted.

10 We understand the need for a

11 healthy soil fauna and are going at great

12 lengths to maintain it by regular broadcast

13 compost application and planting cover crops. 

14 Moreover, we use sulfurous acid to neutralize

15 the pH of irrigation water. We do not use it

16 as a fertilization.

17 Finally, conditions that require

18 sulfurous acid are not caused by unsustainable

19 irrigation practices. Rather sulfurous acid

20 is necessary to adjust naturally occurring

21 alkaline soils and poor water quality.

22 Suggested alternatives like
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1 seaweed, humic acid, soil sulfur, they are

2 just not practical as my other guys before me

3 already explained at great length. And as to

4 ferric phosphate, crops differ in their

5 propensity for growing slugs and snails.

6 In our area, citrus is usually the

7 main breeding ground for them. Therefore,

8 vineyards, watering citrus can have severe

9 snail outbreaks in some years.

10 These events are not very

11 frequent, but when they occur, effective snail

12 control is necessary to prevent vine

13 defoliation and crop contamination. In these

14 situations we rely on continued use of ferric

15 phosphate-based slug and snail baits as the

16 least environmentally harmful and most

17 effective means of managing crop pests.

18 Ferric phosphate occurs in the

19 natural environment. As to the issue of

20 inerts, all pest control products are

21 formulated with inerts to increase efficacy. 

22 To comply with the organic rules, pest control
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1 materials have to be formulated using only

2 safe materials, EPA List 4 and EDTA is falling

3 into that.

4 And on top of that, we have not

5 observed any damage to our earthworm

6 population as a consequence of slug

7 applications. Moreover, there is really no

8 alternative -- viable alternative to that.

9 Basically in essence, both

10 materials are minor as to the extent that they

11 are being used by us. But they are major that

12 in the case they are needed, we cannot do

13 without them. Thank you.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh, very good. 

15 I think -- I think you're on the list now. 

16 Okay, questions for Gisela, any? No. Okay,

17 thank you, though.

18 MS. WITTENBORN: Thank you.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

20 speaker is Richard Bennett and he'll be

21 followed by Neil Miller.

22 MR. BENNETT: Good morning. Thank
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1 you for allowing me to speak with you today. 

2 I just represent the family farm. My wife and

3 I have blueberries and late season navels.

4 But you have to understand the

5 California situation. California has four

6 percent of the nation's farmland, but we

7 produce over 50 percent of all the fruit,

8 vegetables and nuts.

9 We have water problems. A lot of

10 legislation lately. And that's much more than

11 a four minute discussion. But we have soils

12 that range from 7.2 to 7.8, water coming in is

13 7.5 to 9.5. Extreme situations here.

14 We go to -- actually again,

15 extreme situation to try to control it. We

16 map all of our soils, we irrigate exactly to

17 that soil. We own an 80 acre block. I have

18 four different soil types.

19 The EC, they're measured every 18

20 inches when we go in and put in the soil, or

21 put in the plants. We use lysimeters to know

22 at the root zone what's in the rhizosphere,
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1 what's available to the plant and below the

2 root zone.

3 So we know if there's any

4 leaching, any nutrients going past it. We

5 have to do that in California just to be

6 competitive. If an alternative source is, if

7 we ever had to go back to being conventional,

8 because without a sulfur burner, we would have

9 to.

10 You would be looking at

11 blueberries in this time period coming from

12 central Mexico, Chile and China is quickly

13 approaching. So you really have a problem

14 here that we need to address and keep the

15 sulfur burners.

16 The safety issues. I have

17 conventional farmers next to me that sulfuric

18 acid, you would not dare have it on your

19 hands, but coming out of the sulfur burner,

20 you can have it on your clothes, you can wash

21 it on your hands, it's not a factor.

22 Love to have any questions you
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1 might have.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Quick.

3 MR. BENNETT: Please.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Questions? 

5 Jay?

6 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you for coming

7 to the meeting. So do I understand correctly,

8 that you were a conventional farmer before

9 this, the use of sulfurous acid, or you made

10 the conversion? How did the two issues

11 coincide?

12 MR. BENNETT: About eight years

13 ago, I converted part of my acreage to

14 organics. My blueberries which require a 5 to

15 5.4 pH, have been organic the whole time. The

16 citrus I'm -- got part of it organic and part

17 of it is conventional.

18 It goes back to soil types and

19 what I can do.

20 MR. FELDMAN: And what did you do

21 on your blueberries before the allowance of

22 sulfurous acid? What did you use?
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1 MR. BENNETT: Production was

2 greatly hampered. It was immediately known,

3 like you know, you treat the soil when you go

4 up, and you're making your burns before you

5 plant. You do as much as you can pre-plant

6 but it's not enough. And so if -- you know,

7 without the sulfur burner, I'd have to go back

8 to being conventional.

9 MR. FELDMAN: And is that -- the

10 area you're in, is it feasible to grow

11 blueberries conventionally there? Is that a

12 crop that --

13 MR. BENNETT: Well conventionally,

14 it would be easy for using sulfuric acid, yes.

15 MR. FELDMAN: Is that what the

16 conventional guys are doing?

17 MR. BENNETT: Yes. I mean they're

18 having to spray four to six times a year. I

19 don't have to because my plants are so strong.

20 I'm using my water you know, in

21 such a manner. I'm not really flushing that

22 much away. I mean seeing exactly what goes
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1 past the root system. Capacitor water

2 monitors tell me exactly what's in the soil. 

3 What's gone down.

4 I have five depths and each of my

5 soil types will be eight stations. It's

6 pretty elaborate to know exactly how much

7 water you're using.

8 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Thank you.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold?

10 MR. AUSTIN: I've got a wee bit of

11 background with organic blueberries as well.

12 MR. BENNETT: Super.

13 MR. AUSTIN: The alternatives to

14 using the sulfur burners and the sulfurous

15 acid you alluded to would be citric acid. 

16 Also, I would assume that you would probably

17 use maybe the dry sulfur compounds either as

18 you're designing your berms or later as a soil

19 amendment.

20 From an environmental standpoint,

21 but more so from a plant and a worker health

22 standpoint, physically from the corrosiveness
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1 of the other materials, isn't sulfurous acid

2 a much safer, more benign way to do your water

3 treatment and amendment versus the options

4 that you currently would have otherwise

5 organically?

6 MR. BENNETT: Yes, my other option

7 would be citric acid. We've already seen how

8 expensive it would be.

9 The carbon footprint, because I'd

10 have to end up bringing tanker loads in, is

11 tremendous. And then you have to be able to

12 find a stable source of it. So it's extremely

13 difficult.

14 Redid my berms this last summer. 

15 And you know, I put as much you know, wettable

16 organic sulfur in there, in the deal. But

17 it's just not the same. And it's insane

18 trying to work with the water situation, what

19 it's come to in California.

20 And the pH coming in the water. 

21 And that's, you know, those water laws are

22 allowing certain things going on, that you
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1 know, an organic basis we just couldn't -- you

2 know, can't utilize.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

4 much for your comments.

5 MR. BENNETT: Thank you.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

7 speaker is Neil Miller and we have, let's see,

8 one -- in addition to Neil we have one, two,

9 three, four, five more persons to speak before

10 we'll take the lunch break. So we'll have to

11 make some time adjustments at that time.

12 MR. MILLER: Good morning. My

13 name is Neil Miller. I'm a Business

14 Development Manager with PQ Corporation. 

15 Thank you for the opportunity to speak on

16 aqueous potassium silicate in the sunset

17 review process.

18 I've had a chance to review the

19 published technical reports. The 2003 TAP

20 review, the 2007 NOSB formal recommendation

21 and the more recent January 2014 technical

22 evaluation report. PQ Corporation has made
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1 synthetic aqueous potassium silicate for more

2 than 90 years.

3 Aqueous potassium silicate has

4 many industrial uses, including use in

5 detergent formulations, agricultural

6 formulations, wastewater treatment and others

7 all deriving for the need for -- from the need

8 for soluble silica.

9 The aqueous potassium silicate

10 product in its concentrated form has 21

11 percent soluble silica in water with

12 solubility maintained with eight percent

13 potassium oxide derived from potash.

14 The silica is derived from

15 crystalline high purity sand. Heavy metals

16 are nondetectable. There is no organic carbon

17 in the product. The pH of the concentrate is

18 11.

19 There are three main points

20 associated with use of aqueous potassium

21 silicate in agriculture. First the silica is

22 fully soluble in water. And therefore fully
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1 available for the plant to use. This is

2 unlike any other silica or silicate product

3 available for agricultural use. 

4 Second, the silica, although

5 derived from crystalline sand is an amorphous

6 form and so has the features of

7 bio-availability, solubility and buffering. 

8 Finally, use concentrations are .25 to 1.0

9 percent. That is up to 100 times dilution

10 with water. The pH is now 10 and

11 probabilities of environmental contamination

12 and bio-diversity impact are mitigated.

13 Regarding risk to human health,

14 particularly at use concentrations, the

15 January 2014 technical evaluation report notes

16 these as negligible. On line 581 regarding

17 risk to the environment, again at use

18 concentrations, the January 2014 report notes

19 these as expected to be negligible. That's

20 line 416.

21 EPA currently has this listed on

22 4(b), will not adversely affect public health
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1 or the environment. We are not aware of any

2 regulatory changes associated with aqueous

3 potassium silicate.

4 We have organic customers through

5 distribution for aqueous potassium silicate. 

6 And this business continues to grow. We

7 respectfully request relisting of aqueous

8 potassium silicate on the National List. 

9 Thank you for your attention.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

11 Questions, comments? Thank you very much.

12 MR. MILLER: Thank you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

14 speaker is Stephanie Rose and she will be

15 followed by Julie Weisman.

16 MS. ROSE: Hopefully I don't faint

17 up here.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh, we're a

19 friendly bunch.

20 MS. ROSE: I don't know about

21 these guys, though. I'm Stephanie Rose. A

22 technical service rep at PQ Corporation,
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1 manufacturers of aqueous potassium silicate.

2 First I'd like to thank the NOSB

3 Board for allowing us to come today to speak. 

4 I'm here to submit technical information on

5 aqueous potassium silicate so the Board has a

6 good profile of the material when you make

7 your recommendation on the sunset review.

8 Professor Datnoff has already

9 presented information on the mode of action

10 and efficacy of potassium silicate. I

11 submitted several comments online already

12 today. And I would like to focus on the

13 safety of potassium silicate.

14 However, before I begin, I would

15 like to note that potassium silicate is only

16 allowed by the NOP for use in disease control

17 and insect control. Because of the history

18 and its petition process, I think there has

19 been some misunderstanding on its use and

20 consistency with OFPA.

21 At the fall 2007 NOSB meeting, PQ

22 withdrew the plant and soil amendment for
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1 hydroponics use because it was clear that it

2 did not meet OFPA criteria. Once that portion

3 of the petition was withdrawn, the crops

4 subcommittee reconvened and voted unanimously

5 to approve potassium silicate because it met

6 all three criteria for OFPA, for disease

7 control and insecticide.

8 The full NOSB Board followed with

9 a unanimous vote in favor of listing as well. 

10 I supplied some documents to support that. I

11 hope this addresses the concerns of the Board

12 and groups like Cornucopia Institute, that

13 listing potassium silicate did not result in

14 unintended uses in hydroponics and was

15 approved based on OFPA criteria.

16 Potassium silicate is an EPA17 registered bio-pesticide. And I realize that

18 the word pesticide itself brings fear to a

19 great many organic hearts.

20 According to the Federal

21 Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act, if

22 a material in any way controls a fungus, then
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1 it falls into the fungicide category. 

2 Potassium silicate, the silicon part, helps

3 the plant to defend itself against fungus like

4 pottery mildew. Therefore, it controls

5 disease, therefore it has to be a registered

6 pesticide.

7 Pesticides are classified with a

8 single word, poison, danger, warning or

9 caution. It was given caution because that is

10 the friendliest type of product. Potassium

11 silicate has a tolerance exemption.

12 This means that the product is

13 benign and the residue is indistinguishable

14 from potassium and silica already in the

15 environment. It will not be harmful to humans

16 including infants and children.

17 The EPA concluded that the risk of

18 exposure via oral, dermal and inhalation, the

19 most likely routes of exposure for field

20 workers, was negligible. Every pesticide has

21 a restricted entry interval. The time you

22 have to wait to reenter a field after applying
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1 potassium silicate is four hours.

2 For comparison, sulfur, another

3 common control for powdery mildew has an REI

4 of 24 hours. Potassium silicate also has a

5 zero preharvest interval. Farmers can harvest

6 their crop the same day as application.

7 Aqueous potassium silicate is used

8 as a foliar treatment in rotation with other

9 organic pesticides to control diseases like

10 powdery mildew. When NOP list was amended in

11 2010, potassium silicate was a brand new

12 technology, a new option for organic farming.

13 PQ Corporation is not an ag

14 company. We're here today because we happen

15 to manufacture a non-toxic benign material

16 that is beneficial in organic farming for

17 controlling disease. Close enough.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Hey, you did

19 that, you see. So you get the magic one for

20 stopping exactly on time. And do you need to

21 finish that sentence?

22 MS. ROSE: Which could impact the
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1 success of an organic farmer.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right,

3 that's good. That's good. It's good. All

4 right, questions? Great. Thank you very

5 much.

6 Next speaker is Julie Weisman and

7 she's followed by Charlotte Vallaeys.

8 MS. WEISMAN: Good afternoon. My

9 name is Julie Weisman. I'd like to thank you

10 all for the opportunity to be standing on this

11 side of the podium speaking to you today.

12 I speak today as a representative

13 of Elan and its affiliates, Natural Flavors

14 and Flavorganics. Elan is a producer of both

15 organic and non-organic flavor ingredients

16 including organic glycerin. Natural Flavors

17 is a producer of both organic and non-organic

18 flavors. Both minor ingredients that have so

19 far not been subjected to commercial

20 availability requirements. Flavorganics is a

21 national brand of certified organic flavor

22 products for home use.
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1 I have also served on the NOSB as

2 the chair of the handling committee from 2006

3 to 2008, and as the vice chair in 2008.

4 I am writing to support the

5 petition currently before the Board for the

6 removal of glycerin from its current listing

7 in 205-605(b) of the National List only if

8 there is provision for the use of non-organic

9 glycerin at times or in situations in which

10 there is not an adequate supply of certified

11 organic glycerin available in sufficient form,

12 quality or quantity for particular handlers'

13 use.

14 Glycerin should not remain listed

15 on 605(b) in its current unrestricted state,

16 but neither should it disappear from the

17 National List altogether. I consider the

18 motions brought by the handling committee for

19 the full Board's consideration at this meeting

20 to be huge steps in exactly the right

21 direction.

22 A critical additional step is to
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1 broaden the proposed listing of glycerin on

2 606 to include all types of agricultural

3 glycerin that are allowed under NOP

4 regulations and OFPA. I support the comments

5 of the Organic Trade Association in this

6 regard as presented to you yesterday by

7 Gwendolyn Wyard.

8 Now let's talk about gellan gum. 

9 I'm the person who is the chair of the

10 handling committee presided over the original

11 listing of gellan gum on 605(a). So I want to

12 let you know that you are asking all the right

13 questions and I also need to say, been there,

14 done that.

15 I want to make sure that the

16 current Board is aware that the 2006/2007

17 Board did have full access to CBI from the

18 original petitioner. In addition,

19 representatives of CP Kelco were available

20 over the course of at least two meetings and

21 on any other occasions in between to answer

22 our questions, and there were many.
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1 Like you, we were troubled by the

2 use of IPA for instance. However, as we

3 reviewed and re-reviewed the manufacturing

4 process and the provisions of OFPA, and the

5 rule, it became clear that gellan gum is not

6 synthetic.

7 There is nothing in the rule that

8 prohibits the use of isopropyl alcohol as a

9 processing aid used to manufacture allowed

10 non-synthetic materials on the National List. 

11 And furthermore, IPA does not create a

12 chemical change in the gellan gum and is

13 removed from the final gellan gum product.

14 And I do not use gellan gum or

15 manufacture it, by the way. I have seen

16 nothing in the current review of this

17 material, including during public comment

18 yesterday that is in any way different than

19 what was discovered by this Board in previous

20 reviews. 

21 And all our deliberations on this

22 material are preserved for your reference in
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1 meeting transcripts, final recommendations and

2 numerous historical documents of which I

3 strongly encourage you to make use. It is not

4 your job to rewrite history.

5 It is your job -- oh shoot, sorry. 

6 It is your job to review carefully and

7 thoughtfully every ingredient on the National

8 List every five years. That has been done,

9 and that is continuing to be done. And I

10 encourage you to make use of all the resources

11 at your disposal.

12 I would like to thank Chairman

13 Richardson, especially for her thoughtful

14 comments yesterday. I would like to thank the

15 outgoing members, Joe, Jay, Wendy and John. 

16 I encourage you to stay engaged in this

17 process. Thank you.

18 (Applause)

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. You

20 finished right at that red buzzer. Any

21 questions? Okay, great. Thanks.

22 The next speaker is Charlotte
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1 Vallaeys to be followed by Jane Parker.

2 MS. VALLAEYS: Hi, my name is

3 Charlotte Vallaeys with Consumers Union. 

4 Nothing hurts trust like broken promises, and

5 that goes for consumer trust in the organic

6 label.

7 The promises are in the law. 

8 Prohibited substances can be exempt for a

9 five-year period only if they have been

10 carefully reviewed and only if they are

11 essential, consistent with organic principals,

12 and don't potentially harm human health or the

13 environment.

14 The growth of the organic industry

15 is dependent on keeping that trust with

16 consumers. Organic grows not in spite of

17 having strong restrictions, but because of it.

18 What does it mean to be essential? 

19 Is something essential if it means consumers

20 don't have to shake their pineapple juice? Or

21 if it gives a milk-free beverage a milky mouth

22 feel? Or in the case of a whole algal flour,
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1 if it means consumers can eat industrially

2 fermented microalgae instead of organically

3 grown food. Whole algal flour is petitioned

4 as a healthy substitute in processed foods, a

5 substitute for organic milk and organic eggs,

6 which according to the petitioner are

7 unhealthy. So is it essential? Clearly an

8 organic alternative exists. Organic food.

9 The question then becomes whether

10 you agree that organic milk and organic eggs

11 aren't healthy and should be replaced. And

12 whether that's consistent with organic

13 principals. We certainly don't think so.

14 We especially ask that the NOSB

15 ensure that ingredients such as whole algal

16 flour will not be added to organic foods under

17 the listing for microorganisms. During the

18 sunset review, we ask that you restrict this

19 listing to microorganisms that are necessary

20 as starter cultures for natural fermentation.

21 We often hear about materials and

22 their GRAS status. So I'd like to take a
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1 minute to talk about what GRAS status actually

2 means.

3 It means the manufacturer

4 determined their ingredient is safe. That

5 they share this determination with the FDA. 

6 And after reviewing the notification, the FDA

7 wrote a letter to the manufacturer saying,

8 quote, the agency has not however made its own

9 determination regarding the GRAS status of the

10 ingredients.

11 As always, it is the continuing

12 responsibility of the petitioner to ensure

13 that food ingredients that the firm markets

14 are safe. FDA GRAS does not mean the FDA has

15 independently reviewed the substance or

16 performed its own safety evaluation.

17 When we raised concerns in our

18 spring comments about gellan gum, that's

19 exactly what we were doing. Raising concerns

20 and asking questions. Why? Because the

21 original petition for gellan gum was no better

22 than the petition for algal flour.
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1 The entire section on

2 manufacturing was redacted. Organic is

3 supposed to offer a safe haven in our food

4 supply. A properly regulated system with

5 meaningful, periodic review and re-review. 

6 The first step in meaningful review is full

7 transparency, and that includes transparency

8 to the public.

9 We were disappointed to see in the

10 handling subcommittee proposal that it

11 recommends relisting gellan gum based on,

12 quote, consumer expectation of taste and

13 texture. Yes, we agree that consumers have

14 expectations.

15 The vast majority of them, around

16 90 percent, have expectations that are rooted

17 in the law. That organic foods be free from

18 GMOs, artificial ingredients, and artificial

19 processing materials.

20 When we speak for consumers, our

21 numbers are based on hard data, our nationally

22 representative surveys. But that aside, NOP
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1 regulations actually prohibit adding

2 non-organic materials to the list if their

3 primary purpose is to improve taste and

4 texture.

5 We urge you to remove marsala,

6 sherry and tragacanth gum from the National

7 Lists. We also urge you to contact our senior

8 scientist at Consumers Union, Michael Hanson

9 for his input on defining excluded methods.

10 He was too busy working on GMO

11 labeling campaigns in Colorado and Oregon to

12 submit his comments on time. But we hope that

13 you will seek his input. Thank you.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Any

15 questions for Charlotte? Yes, Zea and then

16 Jay.

17 MS. SONNABEND: Can you provide us

18 with Michael Hanson's contact information?

19 MS. VALLAEYS: Yes. I'll be glad

20 to.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jay?

22 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you Charlotte. 
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1 We all support growth. That's why we're here. 

2 I know on the environmental side we see this

3 growth of this industry as solving a lot of

4 environmental and health problems.

5 So when we hear in this room that

6 the growth of the industry equates with

7 consumer trust, is that an accurate way to

8 assess consumer trust? That would be --

9 that's part of my question then.

10 And what -- how does trust factor

11 into -- so it's two parts. How does trust

12 factor into the development of these other

13 labels, if it does at all?

14 MS. VALLAEYS: Right, so the

15 question about consumer trust and how you

16 measure consumer trust. When we developed our

17 two surveys, we designed them with our social

18 scientists at the National Research Center at

19 Consumers Union, with three different

20 questions to get at that.

21 Is -- you know, why -- because the

22 question that was raised in the research
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1 priorities document was why are consumers

2 buying it, right? Why are they buying it if

3 they don't want it?

4 And so that's why we designed it

5 to ask three sets of questions. Is it

6 important to consumers? Do they think it's

7 currently allowed? And do they think it

8 should be allowed?

9 And so that gets at why are they

10 buying it if they don't want it? So what we

11 found is that about three-quarters of

12 consumers don't think for example that

13 artificial ingredients are in organic food.

14 Which tells you if they're buying

15 it, they're buying it not because they're okay

16 with it. But because they don't think that

17 it's in there. Meaning, they're being misled.

18 And so consumers can be misled

19 with labels. It does happen. And we asked

20 the same set of questions for the natural

21 label. And I think everyone here would agree

22 that when it comes to the natural label, yes,
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1 consumers are being misled. That's the

2 logical conclusion.

3 But I think we have to hold the

4 organic label to that same standard. And so

5 it's a you know, it will be a slow process. 

6 But as more and more consumers do learn in

7 that second set of questions, that the organic

8 label in fact does not mean that it has no

9 artificial ingredients, that you do have to

10 check that ingredients list. I think that

11 that's where trust starts to erode.

12 And that's what we all have to be

13 very -- we have to keep that in mind during

14 these discussions.

15 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, I just don't

16 want to leave the impression that, you know,

17 we don't believe that synthetics should be or

18 could be allowed in organic. So you're not

19 suggesting that every consumer thinks there

20 are no synthetics in organic, or are you?

21 And what can we do as a community

22 to educate consumers that the synthetics that
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1 are in organics are evaluated to the most

2 rigorous standard that I've ever seen in a

3 regulatory process?

4 MS. VALLAEYS: Right. I mean, you

5 know, we still rate organic as meaningful. 

6 And that's meaningful. It's just -- it's no

7 longer highly meaningful and that's in part

8 because when we can't tell consumers in our

9 communications with them that every synthetic

10 ingredient that is in there has been carefully

11 reviewed and approved by the NOSB.

12 That is what we want to tell them. 

13 But we cannot do that because that would not

14 be true.

15 Two weeks ago there was a new

16 toddler milk with the organic seal that came

17 on the market. It has 37 artificial

18 ingredients. Six of them you reviewed in

19 Providence and were rejected. Actually two of

20 them were the meeting before that and were

21 rejected for anything other than infant

22 formula.
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1 Now it's on the market. It's

2 there. So we have -- we cannot tell consumers

3 look for that label and you can be assured of

4 this and this. We can't tell them that

5 because -- because of this.

6 So you know, that's the issue of

7 trust. And the other thing is, you know, when

8 you review things, we want to tell consumers

9 that you are reviewing it according to these

10 criteria, the essentiality, the potential harm

11 to human health.

12 And so you know, and we want to be

13 able to tell them that that happens. And so

14 that's why we come up here and urge you to use

15 those criteria in your decisions. Because

16 that is important. Because that will go back

17 in our communications with consumers. And it

18 informs how we communicate with them about

19 different labels. In this case, the organic

20 label.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you

22 Charlotte.
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1 MS. VALLAEYS: Thank you.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

3 speaker is Jane Parker and the final speaker

4 of the morning will be Marty Mesh.

5 MS. PARKER: Good afternoon, or

6 should I say good day Madam Chair, ladies and

7 gentlemen. I want to thank you for giving me

8 the opportunity to speak on an issue which is

9 severely affecting several Australian farmers

10 and processors.

11 In particular five farmers and one

12 processor that have sent me here. And by the

13 way if I -- my accent is confusing you, I

14 actually spent the first half of my year in

15 Scotland, life in Scotland. These farmers

16 supply herbs and spices to the processor

17 Gourmet Garden who sells 60 percent of their

18 product to the U.S. under the made with

19 organic and organic categories.

20 I'm a retired farmer and a

21 consultant and work with growers and

22 processors on research and development
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1 programs. But also channeling them through

2 all the muddy waters of supplying products to

3 organic markets in Australia, U.S. and the EU. 

4 All with different requirements.

5 And here I have to say that I

6 still wish that the Australian government and

7 organic community supported its own as much as

8 you guys do. You have something very special.

9 Today's subject is the greatest

10 challenge we have had. Why? Because we don't

11 understand how or why it happened and I hope

12 you can help me here.

13 On June 9, 2014, the Organic

14 Insider published a memorandum re electrolyzed

15 water. Electrolyzed water is generated by

16 passing an electric current through a diluted

17 solution of pure salt and water.

18 This delivers two compounds. 

19 Anolyte at the anode and catholyte at the

20 cathode, each collected separately. In

21 anolyte hypochloric acid is the dominant

22 active compound and is used as an
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1 antimicrobial and a sanitizer, but this

2 solution is chemically exactly the same as a

3 dilute sodium hypochlorite solution, 80

4 percent more effective and can be made on farm

5 or in factory.

6 Sodium hypochlorite is on the

7 National List. There's only three differences

8 between dilute hypochlorite and havolite. The

9 method of production, the pH at what it exists

10 and the hazardous component. Sodium

11 hypochlorite is classed as hazardous and

12 anolyte produced onsite, the dilute nature of

13 the solution means it's not hazardous.

14 The second solution is catholyte

15 which is sodium hydroxide, also on the

16 National List. So here comes the challenge.

17 We've been asked to prepare a petition to put

18 electrolyzed water on the National List.

19 Is it appropriate for petition for

20 a substance that is two compounds, one

21 specifically already on the National List and

22 one a dilute in water rendition of a substance
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1 already on the National List, that's sodium

2 hypochlorite? Especially when the two

3 compounds are produced separately in two

4 separate areas of the machine and are not

5 mixed.

6 Also, how did such a memo happen? 

7 Was there consultation about it? The users in

8 Australia didn't hear about it. And here is

9 the sad part.

10 By the end of the month after the

11 memo, five growers had received major cards

12 for its use. One grower received their card

13 one hour after they received their renewed

14 certification.

15 If their crops become an

16 inappropriate food safety issue, their

17 livelihood is on the line. Why? Because

18 peracetic acid is not allowed for use in

19 certified organic production in Australia. 

20 And they have no alternatives except for

21 full-blown chlorine, which they will not use

22 because it taints the delicate herbs because
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1 of a slow release of hypochloric acid.

2 They are trying to approve

3 sanitized EG citric acid do not react well

4 with the chloroform green leafeys. So now

5 they use nothing.

6 So my question. Why did the USDA

7 NOP send out such a memo which I've later

8 heard was at the discretion of auditors. And

9 can I say that the auditors of these growers

10 have no discretion for a product that's been

11 used for over a decade, effecting hundreds of

12 growers, processors and retailers without a

13 sunset period. Can I say that? Or at least

14 some further guidance as to how to proceed.

15 And finally can I have one word

16 because I've come all the way? And finally

17 can we refer the memo with some guidance that

18 allows us to finalize the petition process,

19 putting it through the necessary steps to get

20 hypochloric acid added to the National List. 

21 And may I ask in a hurry?

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very
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1 much. Questions, comments? Miles?

2 MR. McEVOY: Yes. This is an

3 issue that we issued a clarification. What we

4 call a material clarification in June as you

5 mentioned on electrolyzed water.

6 This is very much why a material

7 review can be quite difficult for both the

8 National Organics Standards Board, for the

9 certifiers and others involved in the organic

10 trade. We had gotten information from

11 certifiers that some certifiers looked at

12 electrolyzed water as an allowed

13 interpretation of the chlorine allowance on

14 the National List and others thought it was a

15 prohibited substance.

16 So we took a look at it and we did

17 an analysis and we determined that

18 electrolyzed water, it does not meet the

19 requirements. It's not on the National List. 

20 So that's why we issued that material

21 clarification.

22 So in order to have electrolyzed
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1 water considered, a petition needs to be

2 brought in front of this Board for

3 consideration. So that's the -- kind of the

4 background explanation on that.

5 It's not on the National List and

6 therefore it can't be used.

7 MS. PARKER: So can I ask a

8 question, a further question? Because

9 electrolyzed water is actually two components. 

10 Sodium hydroxide and hypochlorous acid. So is

11 the petition -- what's the petition for,

12 because sodium hydroxide is already on the

13 National List?

14 MR. McEVOY: Yes, we can discuss

15 this with you outside of this meeting.

16 MS. PARKER: Yes, I'd like that,

17 yes.

18 MR. McEVOY: But we have already

19 received some petitions for adding

20 electrolyzed water to the National List. So

21 that process is in process.

22 MS. PARKER: Yes, but that was
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1 from us and it was because it was recommended. 

2 And I have to create that. Can I talk to you

3 about it later? Thank you.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you for

5 bringing this to our attention. The final

6 speaker of the morning before we break for

7 lunch is our good friend Marty.

8 MR. MESH: I was requested to go

9 last. Don't start the clock yet. All right,

10 now you can.

11 All right, so Marty Mesh,

12 Executive Director of Quality Certification

13 Services, Florida Organic Growers. I stared

14 farming organic in '72. My thing says as it's

15 been repeated to the outgoing Board members,

16 the current, the returning Board members, the

17 National Organic Program staff and the USDA,

18 other USDA staff that were here.

19 The presentations were very

20 helpful. I hope to check them out. Given the

21 lighting in here, I hope they'll all be online

22 and available. You can ask me questions about
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1 Jim's -- Jim Pierce's certifier perceptions

2 later if you want, as well as his humor.

3 I think I do support Jim's

4 legitimate points of his comments as well

5 though as Jo Ann's, Tom Harding's, John

6 Ashby's, Kelly Pepper's, John Brunnquell's. 

7 The comments take a longer term macro-view of

8 modern organic agriculture and the evolution

9 of the industry.

10 My comments in Texas as I remember

11 were focused on civility dialog and the plan

12 to keep our community eye on the prize as far

13 as the ecological and health promise. And

14 potential of expanding organic agriculture and

15 production.

16 I'm happy to see that the tone and

17 civility has greatly improved. And appreciate

18 the Chairwoman's guidance in this meeting. 

19 But the eye on the prize still seems unclear. 

20 A few thoughts. A few random thoughts.

21 2014 research objectives that were

22 voted on, why not do that after public comment
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1 and include the consideration? Because given

2 where we are with FISMA policy work that we're

3 involved in, we see the need to get objective,

4 credible research looking at manure and

5 compost and pathogen loads in biologically

6 active soils.

7 The data collection that was

8 mentioned in the one time technical upgrade. 

9 I hope that Betsy, if she's still here, or the

10 NOP will incorporate into the -- your new

11 database thing, the overlap between the

12 desired data between ERS which will be NASS

13 data as well as the NOP into the organic

14 integrity database to reduce duplicity and

15 data submission tracking.

16 And perhaps you could even do a

17 capacity building event for small nonprofit

18 organizations for capacity building. It might

19 go a long way to achieve the data gathering

20 goals in multiple USDA programs.

21 The -- I think one thing, I won't

22 do Okragate at this one given the time. But
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1 I do have a technical correction on the tee

2 shirt thing. And we did bring that to

3 attention. And we were going to file a

4 complaint, but it is an excellent

5 certification program doing really good work.

6 We kept digging and we learned

7 that that was not a USDA thing. And so I want

8 to clarify that that was not a USDA shirt. 

9 But what we have learned since then is that

10 the USDA compliance division is -- has been --

11 or will hopefully undertake an investigation

12 to get to the bottom of it.

13 And I did it out of support in

14 principal but also for -- in support of

15 organic cotton producers. Finally, Betsy

16 mentioned now -- Betsy's still here. But she

17 mentioned that USDA stands to process an

18 organic research and promotion program

19 application if one is received by the

20 industry.

21 And as I shared the building with

22 60 thousand young farmers and I wore a tee
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1 shirt today, an organic tee shirt by the way,

2 that says organic on it. And I noticed

3 somebody looking at me in the elevator. I

4 could sense the lack of presence, any presence

5 at the FFA convention.

6 And hopefully a research and

7 promotion and one that funds information could

8 be a solution to having a presence -- that

9 organic would have a presence at a place where

10 there's 60 thousand beginning farmers or

11 future farmers there. As well as maybe

12 research for cotton.

13 (Applause)

14 MR. MESH: Thank you. Any

15 questions?

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Questions? 

17 Questions for Marty? Do you want a tee shirt? 

18 That's the question.

19 MR. MESH: We can talk about it

20 later.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Hold on

22 a minute Marty. Miles wishes to respond to
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1 some of the comments that you made.

2 MR. MESH: I think we go to lunch

3 don't we now? Sorry.

4 MR. McEVOY: Yes, there are a lot

5 of things there, it was hard to keep up with

6 you. But thanks for bringing to our attention

7 the USDA organic non-cotton -- non-organic

8 cotton tee shirt.

9 We have -- I actually filed a

10 complaint about it. And it's currently being

11 investigated and appropriate enforcement

12 action will be taken. Sometimes it takes a

13 while as --

14 MR. MESH: And all I can say is

15 luckily you were working with really one of

16 the best certifiers there were in trying to

17 get to the bottom of this.

18 MR. McEVOY: Absolutely. The

19 other point is on the FFA conference that is

20 here. It's a -- there are -- yes, thousands

21 of them here. Future Farmers of America. And

22 there are some organic organizations that are
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1 present to try to show the future of organic

2 agriculture to these young folks.

3 Organic Valley has a booth over

4 there. OCIA International. And the Organic

5 Consumers Association. So thanks for those

6 organizations for going over there and

7 explaining organics to those young farmers.

8 And if you see anybody walking in

9 the hall, thank them for their investment in

10 the future of agriculture and talk to them

11 about organics. Because it's really important

12 for the future of agriculture that organic is

13 a big piece of that future.

14 So, thanks from bringing that up

15 Marty.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you

17 Miles. Before you go to lunch, Mac has to

18 announce the tee shirt and I guess this cup

19 award, whatever it is. Mac?

20 MR. STONE: Okay. So this is the

21 good news that the list is longer than last

22 year. And again, I think everyone in the room
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1 appreciates the respect for the time.

2 We know it's short. The Board

3 deliberates every pre-meeting how much time do

4 we have? We want to -- the importance of

5 public comment is a really big part of this

6 whole event.

7 Having said that, the ones that

8 nailed it on timing, Julie Weisman, Gisela

9 Wittenborn who's leaving, you can stop up

10 before you get on a plane in a minute. 

11 Lawrence Datnoff, John Ashby, Charlotte

12 Vallaeys and Marty if he so chooses.

13 Those that stopped in respect for

14 the timing. Bill Wolf, Rebecca

15 Thistlethwaite, Jim Winter, Will Fantle, Terry

16 Gong, Stephanie Rose. So thanks to all of you

17 for doing a great job of public comment.

18 (Applause)

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So it is time

20 to break for lunch. And given the fact we're

21 basically -- we're more than half an hour

22 behind, I would like to suggest that we start
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1 at 2:00 p.m. That's 2:00 p.m. So that gives

2 you just over an hour to get a bite to eat.

3 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

4 matter went off the record at 12:52 p.m. and

5 resumed at 2:05 p.m.)

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right,

7 everybody. It is five minutes past 2:00 and

8 I'd like to start this afternoon's meeting. 

9 If you need to talk, please go outside.

10 The first items on the agenda this

11 afternoon is an additional public comment

12 speaker who was unable to be fitted in this

13 morning. So I would like to welcome Kim Dietz

14 to the commenter stand and let us know what

15 you think. Thank you.

16 MS. DIETZ: Thank you. Thank you

17 for recognizing me at the very last minute.

18 My name is Kim Dietz and I'm

19 giving comment today as a citizen, past NOSB

20 member, and my comments do not reflect those

21 of my employer.

22 I served on the NOSB from 2000 to
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1 2005 as a handler representative and as

2 Materials chair for three of those five years. 

3 It was during my role as chair of Materials

4 that we developed and approved the original

5 sunset process. I thought it would be helpful

6 for this Board to hear quotes from the minutes

7 of the 2004 NOSB meeting, a meeting that first

8 established the sunset process. These

9 statements I will be reading are questions

10 asked from that Board in 2004 to help clarify

11 the process, and this is going to be dialogue

12 between the Board and the Program.

13 "So what is sunset?" "Sunset is

14 not unique to this program. It does happen

15 with many laws and many regulations. Sunset

16 is a call to review the conditions that

17 warranted putting a material on the National

18 List in the first place. If we receive no

19 comments on a material during this process

20 regardless of what the Board thinks, the

21 material goes away. It will not be available

22 for use."
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1 Other question. "When we go

2 through the sunset, when we do this procedure,

3 are we putting something back on the List for

4 five years or are we keeping it on the List

5 for another five years?" Answer: "You're

6 renewing this exemption. If it's an allowed

7 material, you're saying we've looked at it,

8 we've considered all the evidence; i.e.,

9 public comment, TAP reviews, and you are

10 renewing the exemption for this allowed

11 material for another five years."

12 "Is sunset an event?" "There's

13 sort of a feeling and people sense that, okay,

14 sunset, it's an event. Well, sunset is not an

15 event. From now on sunset is an annual

16 activity that will take place. You understand

17 that? Every year that you add materials, five

18 years later" -- you know, quote this --

19 "'someone is reviewing the need for those

20 materials to continue.'" Okay. I repeat. 

21 "Someone is reviewing the need for those

22 materials to continue." 
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1 "This is the first Board that will

2 initiate a sunset process, but some of you

3 won't even be on the Board by the time the

4 sunset comes and goes. Every five years,

5 every five years after that will be an

6 effective date on the publication of the final

7 rule and the clock will start ticking over and

8 over again. Therefore, what you want to

9 realize is that sunset is a growing activity. 

10 It will become a bigger and bigger job every

11 year because it will never just be a one-time

12 review to see if it's okay. It goes on

13 perpetually. 

14 "And that's one reason, that's a

15 very important reason why the process that we

16 laid out for you through rulemaking, it must

17 withstand the annual action by every Board. 

18 You've got to take into consideration the big

19 picture. There have been years and years of

20 activity taking place to put materials on the

21 National List. When you take into

22 consideration how many materials have made it
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1 onto the list, they've gone through scientific

2 research, they've gone through public comment,

3 final rulemaking. And so the data that

4 supports those materials that are currently

5 listed on the list already have a foundation

6 established."

7 So my personal comments; I'll end

8 the quotes from the 2004 meeting, many

9 commenters over the past few days have

10 mentioned that the sunset process is

11 automatically to remove a material from the

12 National List. Well, in some ways they're

13 correct, but only if there's no public comment

14 received to renew the listing. And if there

15 are comments to renew the listing, the only

16 mechanism to remove materials is if there's an

17 alternative, new evidence or a change that

18 warrants its removal.

19 I do see the sunset process

20 working. Many of us in this room are

21 dedicated to continuously -- 

22 (Timer expired and sounded)
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1 MS. DIETZ: Thank you. Any

2 questions?

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Do you have a

4 lot more words there?

5 MS. DIETZ: No, not much at all.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Just say.

7 MS. DIETZ: Many of us in this

8 room are dedicated to continuously improving

9 and protecting the definition of "organic." 

10 I urge you to follow the process that past

11 Boards have established and allow those of us

12 who are dedicated to this industry to continue

13 to find alternatives and to remove materials

14 that are no longer needed. Thank you.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

16 Comment?

17 MS. FAVRE: More a comment than a

18 question. I appreciate you coming up and

19 giving us historical perspective. Those of us

20 that weren't on the Board at that time find

21 that helpful. So thank you.

22 MS. DIETZ: Thank you. Okay. 
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1 Good luck.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next item

3 on the agenda is actually to allow Deputy

4 Administrator McEvoy to introduce the new

5 Board members, some of whom are here, as I

6 understand it. Is that correct?

7 MR. McEVOY: Yes. Yes, I'd like

8 to introduce some of the new members to the

9 National Organic Standards Board. I think at

10 least three out of four of them are here in

11 the room. If they could just come up to the

12 podium and introduce themselves, that would be

13 really great. We have Lisa de Lima, Tom

14 Chapman and Ashley Swaffer that are here and

15 have been here the last day or so. 

16 So Lisa de Lima, welcome.

17 MS. DE LIMA: Thank you. Hi. So

18 I'm Lisa de Lima. I'm going to be incoming to

19 the retailer seat when Joe leaves in January. 

20 Really excited to be involved in this

21 process. 

22 Currently I work at Mom's Organic
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1 Market. I've been there for the last 16

2 years. The vice-president of grocery. So I

3 get to do a lot of work in sourcing, setting

4 our standards and making sure that we fulfill

5 our mission, which is why I'm so passionate

6 about Mom's and organics is our mission is to

7 protect and restore the environment, and a

8 large part of that is supporting organics. 

9 Produce sections in our store only stock

10 certified organic produce. 

11 So I guess I want you all to know

12 that at heart I'm an environmentalist. Jean

13 was one of my teachers back in my undergrad at

14 UVM. So I have -- undergrad degree is

15 political science in environmental studies and

16 a master's in business. And I'm here because

17 I want to support organics. I want to move

18 organics forward because of the implication

19 for positive change in the environment.

20 MR. McEVOY: Thank you, and

21 welcome

22 (Applause)
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1 MR. McEVOY: Okay. Ashley?

2 MS. SWAFFER: Hi, I'm Ashley

3 Swaffer. I'm the director of special projects

4 at Arkansas Egg Company and I work with our 46

5 family farmers on animal welfare issues and

6 organic certification. And so I'm really

7 excited to be representing all of our farmers

8 on this adventure that I hear that it is. So

9 I'm really looking forward to taking this

10 position. Thanks.

11 MR. McEVOY: Thanks, Ashley. 

12 (Applause)

13 MR. McEVOY: And Mr. Tom Chapman.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I always

15 get nervous with public speaking, so I wrote

16 down a couple notes real quick. I'm honored

17 to be appointed to the organic handler, one of

18 the organic handler seats on the National

19 Organic Standards Board. I think the active

20 democratic participation of stakeholders is

21 critical to the integrity of the organic

22 standards and I believe a core driver behind
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1 the success of the organic marketplace in the

2 U.S.

3 I'm eager for the opportunity to

4 give back to the organic community. That's

5 been the basis for my professional career.

6 A little bit about me. My passion

7 for organic food originates with countless

8 hours spent in the kitchen with my mother

9 learning how to cook healthy balanced dinners

10 from scratch. During college I first got

11 involved in organic food systems and I quickly

12 learned that organic food was anything but

13 simple. From the challenge of promoting soil

14 fertility and mitigating pest pressures with

15 limited inputs on the farm, to the challenge

16 facing handlers and finding those few farmers

17 and formulating good tasting products with a

18 limited supply and volatile regulation.

19 Organics is not easy. It never

20 has been, but none of us are here because we

21 thought it was. 

22 I'm lucky to have worked my entire
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1 professional life in the organic industry

2 starting at QAI and continuing at New Me

3 Organic Tea. I've also had the pleasure to

4 volunteer with CCOF in the CDFA Organic

5 Program. I currently work at Clif Bar in the

6 Bay Area; go Giants, sourcing organic

7 ingredients. 

8 Yes, Zea. Go Giants, Zea.

9 (Laughter)

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Clif Bar feeds and

11 inspires adventures through trading nourishing

12 food and supporting a healthy food system. I

13 have an amazing job that facilitates the

14 company's vision of connecting directly with

15 our producers, food makers, understanding

16 their needs, sharing ours, contracting their

17 products, communicating their stories and

18 consumers, be it organic maple farmers in

19 Vermont; Jean, to organic oat farmers in

20 Canada, soy, sunflower farmers in the

21 Heartland or fig and raisin growers in

22 California. 
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1 As a family and employee-owned

2 company Clif Bar seeks to run a different

3 company that follows five aspirations going

4 beyond the conventional or triple bottom line

5 business model. We measure ourselves against

6 objectives impacting our business brands,

7 people, community and environment. Our

8 commitment to organic falls under many of

9 these aspirations. And to give you some

10 specifics, since going organic Clif Bar has

11 purchased over 425 million pounds of organic

12 ingredients accounting for 72 percent of

13 everything we buy, a number that's grown every

14 year since going organic. 

15 During this dynamic time in the

16 organic community it's important for the NOSB

17 representatives to be balanced, willing to

18 hear all opinions and dedicated to finding

19 creative solutions to uphold the integrity of

20 the system while promoting growth. Organic is

21 a value added at the farm level and that can't

22 be forgotten. Handlers hold a unique position
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1 and obligation to protect the integrity of

2 that farm-level value-add while maintaining

3 and promoting consumer confidence in this

4 labeling movement. Simply said, we're all in

5 this together. I look forward to working with

6 all the stakeholders and doing my best to

7 represent the diverse group of handlers as

8 part of a great organic community.

9 I'm glad the buzzer didn't go off.

10 (Laughter)

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Lastly, I'd like to

12 thank all the outgoing NOSB members, and

13 particular Mr. John Foster for his service. 

14 I have some very large shoes to fill both

15 figuratively and literally. Thank you, guys.

16 (Applause)

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very

18 much and welcome all of you. 

19 Now we're moving into the new part

20 of our agenda where we're looking at

21 materials. And I will turn this over now to

22 Harold Austin to begin to deal with the
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1 Handling Subcommittee materials.

2 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Madam

3 Chair. I'd like to welcome everybody to the

4 Wednesday afternoon session of the NOSB

5 meetings, and this will start the beginning of

6 the Handling Subcommittee presentation to the

7 full National Organic Standards Board of the

8 past semester's work for review, discussion

9 and voting where applicable.

10 The agenda items on the Handling

11 Subcommittee's work plan for this afternoon's

12 presentations will include the following: We

13 will present a brief summary for each work

14 plan item from the most recent public comment

15 period along with the subcommittee's proposal

16 and/or recommendations and motions. We have

17 two proposals for discussion. They are for

18 glycerin, petition for removal from 205.605;

19 for whole algal flour, petition for addition

20 to the National List at 205.606. 

21 We have four 2015 sunset material

22 reviews to discuss that have been recently
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1 posted for their second and final public

2 comment period that will be brought before the

3 entire NOSB for discussion and vote. They are

4 marsala, sherry, tragacanth gum and gellan

5 gum. We will then follow that with the 10

6 2016 sunset materials that have recently been

7 posted for the first of two mandated public

8 comment periods for discussion and a recap of

9 the public comments. These are not up for

10 vote at this time. Merely discussion and

11 information gathering to assist the

12 subcommittee and the Board with the official

13 sunset review process as required under the

14 recent revised processes. 

15 Along with these items I have just

16 mentioned during this past semester the

17 Handling Subcommittee has started to implement

18 the trial phase as required by the February

19 3rd, 2014 memorandum from Deputy Director

20 McEvoy to look at ancillary substances

21 starting with microorganisms, which is a 2016

22 sunset material. The 2015 materials were not
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1 required to have ancillary substance review

2 due to the timing of the implementation of the

3 ancillary declaration from the NOP. 

4 The subcommittee also performed

5 the task of the preliminary review in

6 establishing the needs and requests for

7 technical reports for the 104 2017 sunset

8 materials which will begin to be posted in the

9 spring for our spring meeting for their first

10 public comment period. That task took an

11 exorbitant amount of time for the subcommittee

12 this past semester simply just because there

13 was "only" 104 of them. 

14 We had an extremely packed work

15 schedule and I would like to publicly thank

16 all of the Handling Subcommittee for their

17 hard work, dedication, job well done. Thank

18 you, guys. 

19 With that, we'll move into our

20 agenda. Our first agenda item is one of two

21 materials that had a proposal. The first one

22 is glycerin. I'd like to turn it over at this
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1 time to Dr. Brines with the NOP to give their

2 opening declaration statement on this

3 material.

4 DR. BRINES: All right. Thank

5 you, Harold. The petition for glycerin was

6 submitted on January 4th, 2013 by Draco

7 Natural Products. The petition requests the

8 removal of glycerin from Section 205.605(b) of

9 the National List. It's currently listed with

10 the annotation produced by hydrolysis of fats

11 and oils. In support of its review the

12 subcommittee did request the development of a

13 technical report, which was completed in 2013. 

14 A previous Technical Advisory Panel report was

15 also available from 1995. 

16 This petition has been on the

17 agenda of the previous NOSB meeting in April

18 earlier this year. Both the technical reports

19 and earlier proposals including the one being

20 considered at this meeting were posted on the

21 NOP Web site and available to the public in

22 advance of the opening of the public comment
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1 period for this meeting. Thank you.

2 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Lisa. 

3 Based off of the public comments,

4 both written and oral, and in accordance with

5 the "Policy and Procedures Manual," the

6 Handling Subcommittee convened during this

7 morning's break with a quorum present and

8 those not in attendance given the opportunity

9 to tender a vote as well, and we voted to

10 withdraw our current recommendation for

11 glycerin for the purpose of revision and

12 reconsideration at a future NOSB meeting.

13 At this point I'd like to turn it

14 over to Tracy to lead any further discussion

15 on this at this time.

16 MS. FAVRE: Thank you, Harold. 

17 The decision to take it back to committee was

18 primarily based upon the fact that, as Harold

19 said, we got considerable confusion and

20 consternation through the public comments in

21 our lack of clarity on the classification

22 motion primarily. As I indicated during, I
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1 think it was, Gwendolyn's comments yesterday

2 that it was our intention to give an example

3 of a classification as agricultural for 606

4 while not being all inclusive, but that was

5 pretty clearly not obvious. 

6 And so we decided to make an

7 amendment to the classification to correct our

8 oversight. And the program has determined

9 that it is a substantive change and therefore

10 we will have to take it back to committee. 

11 The plans to add it to 606 and remove it from

12 605(b) will stand in the new proposal. Thank

13 you.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Do you want to

15 do a motion to send it back to subcommittee? 

16 No, not needed?

17 MR. AUSTIN: Not needed with the

18 procedures that we followed this morning.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Very good. 

20 MR. AUSTIN: We can open it for

21 discussion at this point though.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.
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1 MR. AUSTIN: So having said that,

2 is there any discussion from any members of

3 the Board?

4 (No audible response)

5 MR. AUSTIN: Hearing none, 

6 we'll -- 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Sorry. Do you think

8 the record is clear on why it's being

9 withdrawn?

10 MR. AUSTIN: Just to clarify for

11 the record, with the discussion amongst the

12 Handling Subcommittee the decision was made

13 based off of -- this has been a very difficult

14 material. A lot of moving parts. And we

15 wanted to bring it back to the subcommittee to

16 make sure that when we come forward with a

17 proposal that it's the proper proposal. 

18 To change it midstream would have

19 been a substantive change which is not allowed

20 at this point in time. So we've decided that

21 the best approach and the proper procedure

22 according to the "Policy and Procedure Manual"
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1 and based off of public commentary would be

2 refer it back to the subcommittee for further

3 deliberation and then we can come back at a

4 later date and time with a motion. That help

5 clarify it, Jay?

6 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, it does.

7 MR. AUSTIN: Tracy?

8 MS. FAVRE: I'd just like to add

9 to expand on Harold's comments, we're on the

10 version 7 of the checklist now. We've had

11 quite a bit of discussion and debate about

12 this. Although he told me they went to like

13 22 on streptomycin, so I don't feel so bad. 

14 But so we've had lots of

15 discussion about this. We knew when we put

16 the proposal out that we probably wouldn't get

17 it quite right because there's so many moving

18 parts on this. Because glycerin can be

19 produced in so many ways, some of which are

20 considered synthetic and some of which are

21 not, it's just sort of made it more

22 complicated. And then also it's so pervasive
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1 in the use in the industry. We wanted to make

2 sure that we got feedback as much as possible. 

3 So we have actually created

4 another proposal which had the ruling from the

5 program been different, we would have actually

6 brought forward and voted upon today. I don't

7 know if it would be appropriate for me to read

8 that classification motion here or not. 

9 Jean, you want to provide any

10 feedback on that?

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, you could

12 just so that the -- but --

13 MS. FAVRE: Yes.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: -- you're not

15 reading it --

16 MS. FAVRE: Yes, it's not a

17 motion, but --

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So that people

19 get a better understanding of why we've made

20 the decision to send it back to subcommittee.

21 MS. FAVRE: Yes. Okay. So, the

22 current thinking is that the proposed
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1 classification motion would be -- is to

2 classify glycerin as agricultural when derived

3 from agricultural source materials and

4 produced using biological or

5 mechanical/physical methods as described under

6 205.27(a). And then with the annotation to

7 clarify further "produced from agricultural

8 source materials and processed using

9 biological or mechanical/physical methods as

10 described under 205.27(a)."

11 So you'll obviously have an

12 opportunity to comment upon on this when we

13 submit our proposals for the spring meeting. 

14 And we hope that if there's further

15 consternation or confusion about it that

16 everybody will give us an opportunity to tweak

17 that so we can come with a viable proposal at

18 the spring meeting. 

19 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Tracy. 

20 MR. BONDERA: Sorry. Harold, I

21 just wanted to verify my understanding and say

22 back what I thought I heard from Tracy,
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1 because I may have just had a brain blip and

2 not caught it before. It was what you said

3 before though, not just now.

4 The two listing motions the

5 committee isn't intending to review? It's the

6 classification motion that is up for review? 

7 That's what I didn't quite get from your

8 introduction process and I'd ask that you

9 repeat it, please. Thank you.

10 MS. FAVRE: It's not a matter of

11 review. We've actually got a proposal already

12 that we brought with the intent that if the

13 program ruled it wasn't a substantive change

14 that we would vote on today. It was really an

15 intent to clarify the classification motion. 

16 So since we have the opportunity now, since we

17 have to go back to committee with it, I'm sure

18 we can have the opportunity to discuss it

19 further in subcommittee if we need to, but I

20 think generally we're okay with its current

21 incarnation. Did that answer your question?

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Miles?
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1 MR. McEVOY: Yes, I just wanted to

2 clarify why we consider this a substantive

3 change. The proposal as published for the

4 meeting, you can see here, was to -- now I

5 can't quite read that. Let's see. Motion to

6 classify glycerin produced by microbial

7 fermentation as agricultural. So that was the

8 motion that was presented to the public for

9 the public then to weigh in on about this

10 particular petition. And based on the

11 information that the subcommittee received

12 they're wanting to amend that to make it

13 broader than what this classification motion

14 is. 

15 And because the proposal that they

16 want to move to a motion would broaden the

17 allowance of glycerin beyond what was proposed

18 to the public that the public had the

19 opportunity to comment on, we feel that it's

20 important that that wider allowance of

21 glycerin, the full public should have an

22 opportunity to respond to that amended motion
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1 that will, sounds like, be in front of the

2 public for the spring meeting. Hopefully that

3 makes sense.

4 MR. THICKE: Just a clarification. 

5 I'm not sure I understand. The petition

6 requests removal from 605(b) but it doesn't

7 really request putting it on 606. I didn't

8 see it in the petition. Did I misread that or

9 can we put it on without having it being

10 petitioned for that? 

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tracy?

12 MS. FAVRE: We did actually raise

13 that question in subcommittee and we were

14 advised through program technical advisory

15 that we do have the latitude to do that. 

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

17 comments? 

18 (No audible response)

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: There being no

20 motion on the floor, this material will

21 therefore go back to the Handling

22 Subcommittee. Mr. Austin?
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1 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Jean. All

2 right. Our second material is whole algal

3 flour. Likewise, based off of public comment

4 and in accordance with the "Policy and

5 Procedures Manual" the Handling Subcommittee

6 convened this morning during this morning's

7 break and again we voted to withdraw this

8 recommendation for the purpose of revision and

9 reconsideration at a future NOSB meeting.

10 The rationale for deciding to do

11 this was on the original petition the

12 additional information that was requested by

13 the Handling Subcommittee, there was a

14 tremendous amount of information that had not

15 been included. The manufacturer -- the

16 petitioner during their written public

17 comments and then also during their oral

18 testimonies has provided additional

19 information to the subcommittee. 

20 It may not sway whether we move to

21 put this on or not, but we feel on the

22 subcommittee will help us to at least fill in
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1 some of the blanks for both the classification

2 and the listing motion on this substance. And

3 so we feel rather than to move this forward

4 for a vote and discussion where we feel it's

5 possibly not inadequately framed we've moved

6 to bring it back to the subcommittee,

7 readdress the issues and bring it back forward

8 where it's clearer and more concise. And that

9 was the rationale behind bringing this back to

10 the subcommittee based off of public

11 commentary we've heard in written and in oral

12 testimony.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Does Lisa, do

14 you need to --

15 MR. AUSTIN: I'm sorry, Lisa.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: -- read this

17 into the record?

18 DR. BRINES: Sure.

19 MR. AUSTIN: My bad.

20 DR. BRINES: I can do that before

21 further discussion on this one.

22 The petition for whole algal flour
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1 was submitted by Solazyme, Incorporated on

2 September 6th, 2013. And in response to a

3 request from the subcommittee the petition was

4 updated on January 21st, 2014 with a petition

5 addendum. 

6 The petition requests the addition

7 of whole algal flour to Section 205.606 of the

8 National List. This material has not been

9 previously reviewed by this Board and no

10 technical report was developed. 

11 Both the petition, the petition

12 addendum and the subcommittee proposal were

13 all available to the public and posted on the

14 NOP's website in advance of the comment period

15 for this meeting. Thank you.

16 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Lisa. My

17 apologies for the break in procedure. I won't

18 let it happen again. 

19 Okay. At this point we can open

20 it up for discussion if there's any questions. 

21 Jay?

22 MR. FELDMAN: Is it the
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1 committee's understanding that the Board will

2 be receiving or you'll be able to look at CBI

3 associated with manufacturing, what was

4 previously redacted information? 

5 MR. AUSTIN: There was a

6 significant amount of information that was

7 provided in their written public testimony. 

8 We just haven't had adequate time to review it

9 and really peruse through it enough to give a

10 justified clarification on it. So we need

11 more time. 

12 Tracy?

13 MS. FAVRE: Just as a reminder,

14 even though we've considered adopting and made

15 a recommendation for a new CBI policy, we

16 don't have that new CBI policy in place so we

17 can't actually require it.

18 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you for that,

19 Tracy. Any further questions or discussion?

20 (No audible response)

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: There being no

22 motion on the floor, this material, whole
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1 algal flour, is sent back to subcommittee. 

2 Harold?

3 MR. AUSTIN: That ends this part

4 of it. We'll begin to move into the 2015, but

5 before we do that I would like to turn the mic

6 back over to you. 

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. The next

8 several materials that we're going to look at

9 allow us to work with the new sunset policy in

10 place. Prior to doing that I just want to

11 read through sort of the Chair's Sunset 101 of

12 the new process in case there are people out

13 there that don't fully understand it.

14 The NOSB is charged to review all

15 substances within five years of their addition

16 to or renewal on the National List. Since

17 materials were first added to the National

18 List in 2002, there have been two sunset

19 review cycles. Although the word "review" has

20 not specifically indicated a requirement to

21 vote on substances, the tradition has been for

22 the NOSB to put forward motions and to vote on
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1 them at the public meeting before sending

2 their advice to the Secretary through the NOP. 

3 During those earlier reviews all materials

4 were considered to drop off the National List

5 unless there were motions to re-list them. 

6 Hence, the concept of sunset.

7 In September 2013 the NOP changed

8 the sunset process. The new sunset provisions

9 include two opportunities for public input,

10 and this has resulted in a more in-depth

11 review of materials by the subcommittees than

12 in the past, but the new sunset process now

13 results in all materials staying on the

14 National List unless the NOSB review indicates

15 that they should be taken off the List. 

16 It is widely agreed that the

17 language in the Federal Register notice of

18 2013 requires clarification. And indeed, for

19 this meeting we have received about 150

20 written public comments about the sunset

21 process from a range of stakeholders. Many

22 have expressed frustration at what they see as
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1 precariously convoluted and complex, to quote. 

2 And the subcommittees have worked with the NOP

3 staff to develop motions which meet the intent

4 of the new process.

5 Following this meeting I am very

6 hopeful that the NOP and the NOSB will be able

7 to work collaboratively on clear revisions of

8 the sunset process based on our experiences at

9 this meeting and the public comments that have

10 come in over the last few months. 

11 Meanwhile, we have work to do. 

12 Subcommittees do not make decisions. So in

13 order for the public to clearly understand

14 that a substance could potentially be removed

15 from the National List and given the

16 opportunity to provide comment which could be

17 considered at this meeting each substance

18 comes to the full Board from their respective

19 subcommittee with a motion to remove the

20 substance from the National List.

21 The NOSB acknowledges that this is

22 a somewhat artificial construct but that it
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1 meets the intent of the new sunset process. 

2 Therefore, NOSB members, your yes vote on a

3 motion to remove will be to recommend that the

4 substance be removed from the National List. 

5 Your no vote on a motion to remove will be to

6 recommend that the substance remains on the

7 National List.

8 Harold?

9 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Jean. As

10 Jean has stated, for the 2015 substances we're

11 now entering into the second phase of the

12 newly-revised sunset review process. We're

13 still looking and still working to iron out a

14 few of the wrinkles in it, as I think we all

15 are very cognizant of, but what the Handling

16 Subcommittee has already begun to see is that

17 this process will enable us to have a quality

18 exchange of comments from the stakeholders on

19 two separate occasions thus allowing for

20 better clarity, transparency and a better

21 opportunity for information exchange between

22 the NOSB and our organic stakeholders. 
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1 The sunset process is a great

2 vehicle which we can utilize to show how our

3 organic process should and must work through

4 improved opportunities for communication,

5 through enhanced process for stakeholder

6 feedback and ultimately for two, not one

7 opportunity for public discussion and debate

8 on all materials up for sunset review.

9 With that, I would now like to

10 begin the start of our 2015 sunset materials

11 presentation. The first, we're going to

12 combine two materials, Lisa, to bring to you. 

13 I will present to the Board and the NOP from

14 the Handling Subcommittee marsala with a

15 motion from the subcommittee to remove from

16 the National List 205.606(g)(1) and also for

17 sherry, again with a motion and a second from

18 the Handling Subcommittee to remove from the

19 National List from 205.606(g)(2).

20 Lisa, I now turn it over to you.

21 DR. BRINES: All right. Thanks,

22 Harold. So the first material is marsala
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1 wine. This material was added to the List in

2 2010. The petition was originally submitted

3 in 2007. As Harold said, it is included at

4 Section 205.606 of the National List at

5 paragraph (g)(1) under the listing fortified

6 cooking wines. Likewise, the petition for

7 sherry was also submitted originally in 2007

8 and it was added to the National List in 2010. 

9 It's also included at Section 205.606(g) of

10 the National List under paragraph 2 under

11 cooking wines. Both petitions are available

12 on the NOP Web site and no technical reports

13 have been developed for these substances. 

14 Thank you.

15 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Lisa. Now

16 I'll turn it over to Tracy to lead the

17 Handling Subcommittee's discussion.

18 MS. FAVRE: Thank you, Harold. 

19 Yes, as Dr. Brines has indicated these are

20 very similar materials. They were both

21 petitioned by the same petitioner. They were

22 both used for their unique flavor profile in
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1 some of their I think it was frozen entrées. 

2 And essentially comments generally supported

3 the removal of the materials as no longer

4 being necessary. One commenter even referred

5 to previous comments from Cornucopia

6 suggesting that not even the original

7 petitioner was using it anymore. And

8 essentially there seems to be no demand for

9 either one of these products, so it seems to

10 be fairly straightforward. Thank you.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: One second

12 before we move into discussion. I would like

13 to discuss them separately. We can only

14 really discuss one motion on at a time and

15 vote on one motion at a time. So how about

16 taking sherry first. Colehour, you have a

17 comment? 

18 MR. BONDERA: Thank you, Madam

19 Chair. Actually that was my question, if we

20 could consider them together and who and when

21 that decision was made. That was unclear to

22 me process-wise and I think you've addressed
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1 it, but I don't know if it has a more general

2 observation that you need to make because I

3 don't know if that -- I didn't understand how

4 that was put forth. 

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The motion on

6 the floor from the Handling Subcommittee is

7 now for sherry. And when we've finished

8 discussing and voting on that, we will then

9 take up the marsala. 

10 MR. AUSTIN: Any discussion?

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Mac?

12 MR. STONE: I think, Colehour, at

13 the subcommittee level they're sort of

14 interchangeable in their use, and so because

15 of the big number of sunset materials they

16 were just sort of lumped together in

17 conversation, if you will, at the subcommittee

18 level because they are so close and so similar

19 in nature, but then technically we have to

20 vote separately.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Is the NOSB

22 ready for the vote on this substance, on
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1 sherry? Do you understand the motion? The

2 motion on the floor is to -- let's see, should

3 I read -- I should really read it out,

4 shouldn't I? What is the motion?

5 MR. AUSTIN: Jean, I can get it.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay.

7 MR. AUSTIN: The motion on the

8 floor from the Handling Subcommittee for the

9 NOSB to vote on would be to remove sherry from

10 the National List of 205.606(g)(2).

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So your vote

12 yes is to remove it. Your vote no leaves it

13 on the List. Are you all clear on the motion

14 and how your vote might go?

15 (No audible response)

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. It

17 comes as a seconded motion.

18 So we start with Francis.

19 MR. THICKE: Yes.

20 MS. BECK: Yes.

21 MS. FAVRE: Yes.

22 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 
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1 VICE-CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

2 MR. STONE: Yes, ma'am.

3 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

4 MR. AUSTIN: Yes.

5 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

6 MS. SONNABEND: Yes.

7 DR. WALKER: Yes.

8 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

9 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

11 DR. TAYLOR: Yes.

12 MR. STONE: Record shows 15 yes, 0

13 nos.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The second

15 motion which comes as a seconded motion is

16 marsala. Harold, could you read the motion?

17 MR. AUSTIN: The motion coming

18 from the subcommittee would be to remove from

19 the National List marsala, remove it from the

20 National List at 205.606(g)(1).

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Does everyone

22 understand the motion and what their vote will
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1 mean?

2 (No audible response)

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Start the

4 voting with Carmela.

5 MS. BECK: Yes.

6 MS. FAVRE: Yes.

7 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

8 VICE-CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

9 MR. STONE: Yes, ma'am.

10 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

11 MR. AUSTIN: Yes.

12 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

13 MS. SONNABEND: Yes.

14 DR. WALKER: Yes.

15 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

16 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

17 DR. TAYLOR: Yes.

18 MR. THICKE: Yes.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Chair votes

20 yes.

21 MR. STONE: Southerners don't just

22 talk slow. We hear slow. So we go a little
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1 slower, but I still came up with 15 yes and 0

2 nos.

3 MR. AUSTIN: Okay. Moving on. 

4 The next 2015 sunset material would be

5 tragacanth gum. This comes before the Board

6 as a motion with a second to remove from the

7 National List at 205.606(x).

8 Lisa?

9 MS. ARSENAULT: I'm sorry, can I

10 interrupt? We didn't get who made the motion

11 and who seconded for the last two votes. 

12 Could we repeat that?

13 MR. AUSTIN: Do we need to have a

14 new motion? 

15 (No audible response)

16 MR. AUSTIN: Okay. So coming out

17 of the subcommittee marsala, the motion was

18 made by Tracy, seconded by Zea. For sherry

19 the motion was made by Tracy, seconded by Zea.

20 For this motion in front of us on

21 tragacanth gum, this motion was made by Joe,

22 seconded by myself. 
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1 Lisa?

2 DR. BRINES: Thank you, Harold. 

3 Tragacanth gum is currently listed at Section

4 205.606(x) of the National List without

5 annotation, but it does include CAS No.

6 9000-65-1. The original petition was

7 submitted in 2007 and it was added to the List

8 in 2010, and no technical report is available

9 for this substance. Thanks.

10 MR. FELDMAN: Madam Chair, I rise

11 to a point of order on this motion. And if

12 you'd like, I could discuss what that is or

13 briefly point out that the point of order is

14 based on two problems, if you'll allow me. 

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: A point of

16 order is being made by Jay. Is this something

17 that deals with the present material that

18 we're dealing at, tragacanth gum?

19 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: What is your

21 point of order?

22 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. I did prepare
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1 this, so hopefully it will be succinct for

2 everybody. But just to give you an overview,

3 the point of order is based on two problems. 

4 The motion to remove the material does not and

5 did not reflect the true intent or

6 recommendation of the subcommittee, which is

7 really required under Robert's Rules of Order. 

8 And two, the policy as outlined in the Federal

9 Register of September 16th, 2013 for the

10 subcommittee process was not followed in

11 providing justifications as required.

12 I'd like to point out that if the

13 Board finds by majority vote that the

14 subcommittee motions are out of order, it will

15 be returned to the subcommittee for action,

16 for review under the current policy. So let

17 me quickly go through this and then we can go

18 from there. 

19 Okay. With subcommittee reviews

20 in the absence of a full Board vote, the

21 material under review can stay on the National

22 List. So the process we're going through
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1 right now, this discussion is in no way

2 intended to affect the outcome of what people

3 may want to occur. It's solely focused on the

4 process of how we achieve that outcome.

5 The process issues that I believe

6 are in a sense in violation of the policy is

7 that unless there is a motion to remove a

8 material in subcommittee during the sunset

9 process, the motion does not advance to the

10 full Board for a vote. That's the stated

11 policy. The motion to remove in subcommittee

12 in this case is not justified as required by

13 the FR notice. Citing of OFPA criteria alone

14 without justification does not meet the FR

15 criteria. In this case I believe the

16 essentiality criterion was cited. 

17 It was not the intent of the

18 makers of the motion and those voting for the

19 motion to remove the material. The motion to

20 remove confuses the public as we've seen in

21 some of the public comments. 

22 While I appreciate, Madam Chair,
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1 your presentation at the beginning or start of

2 this section of the meeting, I think it is bad

3 form and sets bad precedent for this Board to

4 on an ad hoc basis choose to reject and ignore

5 the policy and then for the program to allow

6 on an ad hoc basis that in effect rewriting of

7 the policy mid-process. 

8 So here are the sections of the --

9 well, I'll start with the instructions. The

10 USDA AMS provided instructions to the

11 subcommittee and it went like this: This was

12 in the document cited by AMS to the public and

13 to the Board as the operative policies

14 governing the procedures of the Board which

15 included both the FR notice of September 16th

16 -- it included the documents for the training

17 session in February of 2014. It included the

18 "Policy and Procedures Manual," as well as I

19 believe the FACA rules.

20 If the subcommittee -- this again

21 is instructions to the subcommittee. If the

22 subcommittee has obtained new information
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1 since its last review that supports a motion

2 to remove the substance from the National

3 List, the subcommittee will provide

4 justification that demonstrates that the

5 substance is either harmful to human health, 

6 unnecessary because of availability of

7 alternatives and inconsistent with organic

8 production. That was not done in this case

9 because as we know the motion was a procedural

10 motion to get this issue before the Board. 

11 Step 4 says if warranted the NOSB

12 subcommittees can develop proposals to remove

13 substances as part of the preliminary review. 

14 Any proposals to remove a substance must be

15 justified using evaluation criteria in OFPA

16 and the USDA organic regulations. Proposals

17 to remove a substance must be part of the

18 preliminary review that is posted in advance

19 of the NOSB meeting.

20 Step 5, AMS will publish a Federal

21 Register document announcing a second NOSB

22 meeting and request public comments on each of
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1 the subcommittee's preliminary review.

2 Step 6, after NOSB discussion of

3 each preliminary review and any proposals, the

4 NOSB will vote on any motions to remove

5 substances from the National List. If a

6 subcommittee had published a proposal to

7 remove a substance, then a member of the NOSB

8 can make a motion to remove that substance

9 from the National List.

10 And then finally, after NOSB votes

11 on any proposal to remove substances, the NOSB

12 discusses the overall review of the substances

13 under their consideration. That's what we

14 could be doing, Madam Chair, at this meeting. 

15 The subcommittees could have brought -- if

16 there was a substantive motion, could have

17 brought that review -- I'm sorry. If there

18 was not a need for a motion to review or a

19 motion to remove, the subcommittee could have

20 brought the discussion of the subcommittee to

21 this Board for overall review and your

22 sign-off. That was not done. 
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1 At the conclusion of this

2 discussion the NOSB Chair confirms that the

3 NOSB review is complete. The NOSB Chair

4 compiles the preliminary reviews from each

5 subcommittee and any NOSB recommendations for

6 removal into a comprehensive NOSB review

7 document.

8 So again, regardless of how we

9 feel about sunset, we need a process. This

10 Board desperately needs a process that the

11 public can rely on that's meaningful, that's

12 reasonable, that's fair and that represents

13 the true intent of the work of the

14 subcommittees. That's what we're seeking

15 here. 

16 And I think that in sending this

17 back to the subcommittee what we're saying to

18 the public is whether we agree with what the

19 AMS did with the changes in policy, both as it

20 affected the procedures, the transparency, as

21 well as the substance of the changes, that we

22 are notifying the public that we have a
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1 process in place. We're not operating on an

2 ad hoc basis. And it's critical that we stick

3 to a process. If we want to change that

4 process, we need to go through proper channels

5 to change that process. 

6 And so we have what we have at

7 this point and I believe that we have not

8 followed that process and we have not carried

9 out the intent based on a required

10 justification of the motion, in this case an

11 essentiality justification to move this as a

12 motion to remove to the full Board. So with

13 that, I turn it back to you. Thank you.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you for

15 the point of order that you have raised. 

16 You've raised some procedural issues. Is it

17 your intention to submit or ask the -- propose

18 a motion to send this back to subcommittee,

19 which would be a subsidiary motion which would

20 require a second? 

21 MR. FELDMAN: Well, my initial

22 intent was to elicit input from the rest of
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1 the Board to see whether they also believe

2 that this is a violation of the procedures as

3 laid out by the NOP. I could make a motion to

4 return this to subcommittee, if that's your

5 preference, Madam Chair.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I think I'd

7 prefer to have it done based on a motion.

8 MR. FELDMAN: Okay.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I think it

10 makes more sense procedurally.

11 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Well, then I

12 introduce a motion to return the tragacanth

13 motion to the Handling Subcommittee so that

14 procedures as outlined in the Federal Register

15 September 16th, 2013 can be followed.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I'd like a

17 second to that motion in order to be able to

18 discuss this in the detail that it perhaps

19 needs to be discussed. Is there a second to

20 Jay's motion? Is that a second?

21 MR. MARAVELL: I am willing to

22 second Jay's motion, however; I'm not a
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1 parliamentarian, I do think we need to be

2 careful here in how we proceed. And you may

3 want to ask for some other comments on how

4 we're proceeding, Madam Chair. But, yes, I am

5 willing to second Jay's motion. I think it

6 has merit for us to consider.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea?

8 MS. SONNABEND: Before we proceed

9 with discussion I would like clarification

10 from Miles and the department. Is there time

11 to send this back to committee and bring it

12 back at the next meeting without having it go

13 off the List, if that's what we choose to do?

14 MR. McEVOY: Yes, I believe for

15 this particular material the sunset date is --

16 DR. BRINES: December of 2015.

17 MR. McEVOY: -- December of 2015. 

18 So if the NOSB does not complete the review by

19 the sunset date, the material sunsets, is no

20 longer valid, can no longer be used. So

21 that's just a point of clarification. On this

22 slide here materials do not remain on the
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1 National List if the NOSB does not complete

2 the review. 

3 If the sunset date is December of

4 2015 and the NOSB does not recommend removal,

5 then it is feasible for us to complete a

6 Federal Register notice to renew the listing

7 of -- what is this called again, tragacanth

8 gum by December of 2015. So that would be a

9 feasible time frame. For us to complete

10 rulemaking to remove tragacanth gum from the

11 National List is not feasible for us to do

12 between April and December.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

14 Miles. It is my understanding that in

15 bringing up this point of order and the motion

16 is that it is the desire of Jay to allow this

17 to be an opportunity for those -- all members

18 of the NOSB to express their concerns or

19 support of, whatever it might be, of the

20 procedural situation with regards the sunset

21 process. So it's an opportunity for us to

22 have an open discussion. It is the first time
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1 we've really done this. It's been September

2 2013 when this first came in. 

3 The NOSB has not taken a position

4 on it and we probably won't do so, but it does

5 give us the opportunity to say how is this

6 process working compared with the other one? 

7 Does it need clarification? Is it clear the

8 way it is? How do you think that the work

9 that we've been doing is fitting in with the

10 intent of the new or the old sunset procedure? 

11 Harold?

12 MR. AUSTIN: So we are now in the

13 discussion period. Okay. I would like to

14 clarify though the point that Jay had raised

15 that we did not follow procedure on the

16 Handling Subcommittee. I will take that, and

17 I choose to argue that point. 

18 If you look at the motion that --

19 the paperwork that was posted for public

20 commentary and submitted by the Handling

21 Subcommittee, the motion to remove, I read the

22 intended motion to remove tragacanth gum, but
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1 if you go into the declaration above that, the

2 motion to remove, this proposal to remove will

3 be considered by the NOSB at its public

4 meeting. 

5 Based on the subcommittee's

6 review, the subcommittee proposes removal of

7 this substance from the National List based on

8 the following criteria in the Organic Foods

9 Production Act, OFPA, 7 USC 6158(m)(6). The

10 alternatives to using this substance in terms

11 of practice or other available materials. 

12 Also (7), its compatibility with system of

13 sustainable agriculture. So we did follow

14 procedure. 

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nick?

16 MR. MARAVELL: Again, Madam Chair,

17 I'm not a parliamentarian, but I get a little

18 confused. I applaud the Handling Committee

19 for bringing this to the full Board for

20 consideration. If I were a member of the

21 public and I see a motion made to remove --

22 and I'm going to use layman's language here,
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1 so don't hold me to strict legal

2 interpretations. If I were going to make a

3 motion to remove an item from the National

4 List and then get a second for that motion,

5 and then I vote against it, my second votes

6 against it, it's sort of like tripping over

7 myself. As I say, I'm not a parliamentarian,

8 but that would immediately send up a red flag

9 as just to how this procedure is working.

10 What we're trying to achieve here

11 is something that makes sense. And Harold is

12 trying to do his job. I'm not criticizing

13 what the Handling Committee intends to do. 

14 I'm just saying that the procedure needs to be

15 clear so that we don't get caught in this sort

16 of diabolical loop over and over again.

17 So I respectfully submit that it's

18 hard to consider a motion that the maker and

19 the second both voted against. And so I'm

20 having a hard time perceiving as a member of

21 the public and even as a member of the Board

22 clearly what we're doing here.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So is the sense

2 then the NOSB doesn't want to have a motion on

3 the floor? Just withdraw it? Is that what

4 you want to do? Jay? Nick? Instead all the

5 discussion then will be around the main

6 motion? Is that correct, Jay?

7 MR. FELDMAN: Well, the point of

8 all of this is that the main motion has not

9 followed procedure, because, yes, I understand

10 that the two criterion have been cited. Both

11 essentiality and compatibility have been

12 cited. And maybe the Program can clarify

13 this, but as I understand it the instructions

14 to the subcommittee is that the subcommittee

15 has obtained new information since its last

16 review that supports a motion to remove a

17 substance from the National List. The

18 subcommittee will provide justification that

19 demonstrates -- those are very specific words

20 -- justification that demonstrates that the

21 substance is meeting one of the criteria.

22 Look, I agree with the sentiment
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1 here that the full Board should have an

2 opportunity to vote on everything that comes

3 before a subcommittee. I agree with that

4 sentiment 100 percent. Unfortunately, the

5 policy in the Federal Register does not

6 establish a process that does that. It says;

7 and Nick has pointed out, that the maker of

8 the motion voted against the motion. So the

9 intent was not a substantive intent. It was

10 a procedural intent. 

11 And I agree with Nick. This isn't

12 a problem that the subcommittee created. The

13 subcommittee was looking for a work-around to

14 give the Board a full opportunity to engage in

15 the discussion and issue a vote. But if we

16 operate on an ad hoc basis like that and seek

17 to circumvent -- first of all, we saw confused

18 members of the public who were coming forward

19 thinking that materials were going to go away. 

20 And second of all, it doesn't follow the

21 procedures as outlined in the Federal

22 Register. 
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1 The other point that many of us

2 have made is that all of this could have been

3 averted if we had had a public discussion on

4 this and some of these procedural problems may

5 have come to light. But I don't think we can

6 go forward as a Board that oversees a 35 --

7 well, we don't oversee, but hopefully

8 contributes to the growth of a $35 billion

9 industry with ad hoc procedures that are

10 changed midstream and don't reflect something

11 the public can rely on. And the Board

12 shouldn't be put in the position to try to

13 circumvent and jerry-rig a procedure on an ad

14 hoc basis. 

15 So I think the only way to correct

16 this is to return it to subcommittee, have the

17 committee have its review, issue it as a

18 review without a motion to remove, bring that

19 to the Board at the next Board meeting, at

20 which time the Board will discuss the review,

21 and then have the Board acknowledge the review

22 and the Chair sign off on the review and give
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1 that in the compilation to the NOP. I still

2 think there are problems with the procedure,

3 but that's the procedure we have right now.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So just so you

5 understand it, this is a subsidiary motion to

6 send it back to subcommittee. Its purpose is

7 to allow for a conversation of the Board

8 around the issue of sunset. We'll continue

9 this discussion until we think we've had

10 enough and then we'll vote on it and then

11 we'll go to the main motion. 

12 Francis?

13 MR. THICKE: Well, I would point

14 out that it's even more confounded in some of

15 the other committees. In the Crops Committee,

16 for example, the vote was four to three on

17 sulfurous acid and I'm quite sure that those

18 four votes for delisting it were not really

19 intending to delist it. And I think that we

20 had people fly all the way from California and

21 Utah and whatever because of that. And so,

22 these kinds of things have ramifications.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other Board

2 members? You're all very quiet. I know you

3 have opinions. 

4 (No audible response)

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No? All right. 

6 Oh, Nick?

7 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, take my quiet

8 demeanor as confusion. I remain a little bit

9 confused.

10 MR. AUSTIN: Well, in our opening

11 comments this afternoon I think we did discuss

12 that there are some wrinkles within the new

13 process to take and work our way through. I

14 think it does afford us an opportunity for two

15 different times for public commentary/

16 stakeholder input to garner information to

17 make sure that we collectively make the

18 decisions that are in the best interest of our

19 organic community and the stakeholders that it

20 encompasses. 

21 This isn't the perfect solution,

22 but I think to stop the process in midstream,
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1 to randomly begin to send materials back to

2 the subcommittees for review knowing that

3 especially in the 2015 we will be under

4 somewhat of a tight time frame in order to

5 accomplish this, I don't know if this is

6 necessarily the right process or the right way

7 to achieve the means and the goal that we're

8 all trying to accomplish. I think there's a

9 better way and I just don't think that this is

10 it.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Colehour then

12 Mac.

13 MR. BONDERA: Thank you. I

14 actually agree with what Harold just said in

15 a lot of ways because I think that we're

16 facing starting to do something that I would

17 argue there's more than just a few wrinkles

18 on. I think even to some degree it's been

19 acknowledged that this -- my sense is, and I'm

20 not going to quote dates or times or people,

21 but I think even the NOP has acknowledged this

22 needs some fixing already even after what was
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1 put forth in September last year. And I think

2 that we need to start it out right and it

3 needs to be done well and it needs to not be

4 done figuring it out as you go. And I think

5 arbitrary and capricious come to mind in terms

6 of starting out with something that doesn't

7 work and then trying to correct it as we go. 

8 I think I get pretty fearful in

9 terms of -- if we've set precedent and start

10 making decisions on this round of sunset, I

11 think we could be in more trouble, because

12 then we may have to be pulling those back

13 because then it's figured out by the NOP or by

14 the AMS that the process followed does not

15 meet requirements. 

16 And so, I am fairly concerned that

17 we're in a situation where what can we do to

18 make it go best. And I think I have to say

19 that from my perspective the only thing that

20 we have right now as a body is to look back at

21 the Federal Register notice that was put

22 forth, and if the NOP wants to issue a new
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1 Federal Register notice with some corrections

2 or changes -- I don't know how much time that

3 takes or what the process is, but I would say

4 get on it real fast because we can have a

5 corrected thing that we are following right

6 away rather than trying to make things up as

7 we go and then next meeting they're going to

8 change some more. 

9 And like was referred to, the

10 public is very confused and I think frankly

11 and honestly -- and I don't know, Jean, if

12 you're going to go around the room and ask,

13 but I think NOSB members are confused in terms

14 of figuring out what all these things mean and

15 how they all work, and I think people have

16 different opinions and thoughts and

17 understandings, and it's concerning to me that

18 we're going to be voting on materials from

19 different places. And that to me does not

20 feel like how we can work together as a team

21 at all. It feels like we're trying to do

22 things -- I guess ad hoc is not wrong, but
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1 we're trying to do things in ways that isn't

2 unified and moving together towards solutions. 

3 And honestly, from whatever group each of us

4 is representing they're all members of the

5 public and we aren't able to speak for our

6 groups in a coherent manner. 

7 So I would argue that we need to

8 get to a foundation place where we're all

9 together, both collaboratively, the NOP and

10 the NOSB, and so we can be communicating it to

11 the public effectively. And I really feel

12 strongly that that's the only way we can

13 positively and functionally move forward. 

14 And I think what Harold said is

15 exactly right; and I'll wrap up, because we

16 have to start the sunset process. We can't be

17 starting to take votes on sunset items and

18 then the train keeps changing tracks. That's

19 going to really not work. Thank you.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I have Mac,

21 then John, then Tracy.

22 MR. STONE: So the way I read
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1 this, with this motion to remove it takes

2 two-thirds vote to remove, which is a

3 definitive vote, which is in my opinion that

4 -- frankly, I think it should be hard to get

5 stuff on the list and it should be hard to

6 take it off. So I'm okay with that. 

7 The confusion around the wording

8 of the recommendation out of the committee is

9 a little confusing of how it -- the review was

10 done, but when the vote coming out of the

11 committee on this one was zero yes and six no,

12 then it's obvious what the intent of the

13 committee had in their discussion. But

14 Francis referenced one in crops that was like

15 four-three. Then it's hard for me not being

16 on the committee to know just what the

17 committee deliberation sort of was trying to

18 say with a deeper dive into the material. 

19 So I could see a fix in how the

20 wording of the language of how the review

21 went, not just that the review happened that

22 could help Board members get a handle of what
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1 the deliberation was all about. But I'm okay

2 with this make a motion to remove and then

3 vote against in the committee because it's

4 definitive at the Board level.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: John?

6 VICE-CHAIR FOSTER: So whether or

7 not there's one wrinkle or a few wrinkles,

8 whatever, my whole experience with everything

9 since OFPA is it's been one wrinkle after

10 another. So that this has wrinkles is nothing

11 new to me. And if this is confusing, then

12 forget the tax code, forget the voting laws,

13 forget all this other stuff we deal with every

14 single day. It's much more confusing than

15 this to me. 

16 I'm with Mac on that camp when you

17 have a zero to six or a six to zero vote on

18 anything, clearly the subcommittee is unified

19 regardless of what the motion is. If it's

20 three-three or four-two or whatever, then

21 there's some disagreement amongst the

22 subcommittee regardless of what the motion is. 
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1 My intent, I was in the camp

2 originally, for those of you keeping track and

3 score; and I know several of you are -- is I

4 was okay with just doing the review. That was

5 fine with me. I wanted to accommodate the

6 very clear desire by the majority of the Board

7 to make sure we had a vote on every material

8 all the time. And if this is the vehicle we

9 have right now to do that, I'm fine with that

10 because it serves in my opinion a higher

11 purpose, which is establishing a vote

12 opportunity for every Board member. That was

13 my intent. 

14 If the motion has to be worded in

15 an odd way, maybe it's -- I don't know, maybe

16 it's me being a literature major coming out to

17 haunt me again, but I'm okay with that. Like

18 craft the words to make them do what you need

19 to get done. So I'm not particularly

20 confused. I think I've been pretty clear

21 here. I'll stop there.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Before I go to
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1 Tracy, just to remind you that the motion on

2 the floor is to send it back to subcommittee. 

3 It's a seconded motion, and that motion is

4 necessary because Jay objected to procedure,

5 raised a point of order which is not

6 debatable. So we need to have a motion on the

7 floor to have this debate. So therefore, the

8 debate is whether or not to send this material

9 back to subcommittee based on procedural mess.

10 MR. THICKE: Clarification. Does

11 that mean that all the materials will go back

12 to subcommittee since they're all under the

13 same --

14 (Simultaneous speech)

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No, we're just

16 dealing with this one right now. Let's just

17 take one thing at a time.

18 MR. THICKE: We need to think

19 ahead.

20 (Laughter)

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tracy?

22 MS. FAVRE: Thank you. I would
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1 agree with what Mac and John have said. I

2 think any of us that were sitting in on the

3 Handling calls and had participated in the

4 conversation know that the statement that is

5 at the end of each of the materials review

6 made it clear what our intent was. 

7 I can't speak for the Crops

8 Committee because I think there were some

9 people that were more concerned with process,

10 making sure the process was correct. I guess

11 maybe it's just the engineer in me that wants

12 to get the work done in addition to process. 

13 I feel like putting the statement in there

14 that expressed our intent to give the

15 opportunity for everybody to vote was very

16 clear. Our vote then was indicative of our

17 intent on the motion itself. And we were very

18 clear on the Handling Committee what we were

19 doing and what we hoped to express. 

20 I think John made some very good

21 points about it doesn't really matter what the

22 vote is because there might be disagreements. 
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1 I think we did a very good job in the Handling

2 Committee reaching consensus as a group, what

3 was the best way to express the wishes to get

4 everybody a chance to vote. I think that was

5 less clear in Crops because again maybe some

6 philosophical differences about wanting to

7 correct the process regardless of its impact

8 on the particular materials reviews. 

9 And I think again in the very big

10 picture most of us felt very strongly that we

11 wanted to have a chance on the record to vote

12 on the material and if we did need to craft a

13 motion that felt a little awkward -- anybody

14 that read the proposals and saw the vote could

15 pretty easily work out what the intent was in

16 Handling. So I think that was pretty clear. 

17 I don't think there was any confusion.

18 And I stand behind the comment

19 that if we bring a motion forward and there is

20 a vote from the subcommittee, regardless --

21 Jay, you'd expressed that there might be some

22 concerns and people were confused that might
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1 have flown here in alarm that a material might

2 be reviewed or removed. That's the risk on

3 any of these materials that undergo potential

4 for a sunset.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold?

6 MR. AUSTIN: Well, just to follow

7 up on what Tracy had said, I also sit on the

8 Crops Committee, and having sat on that and

9 chairing the Handling Committee, we had the

10 dialogue amongst ourselves that we needed to

11 make sure that we had clarity and that the

12 motions that came out showed our true intent. 

13 And I think this did do that. 

14 We also were challenged with the

15 task of how to bring this back out under the

16 current guidelines so that we could have it

17 for a full Board review and vote, and I think

18 we pretty much said that in the highlighted

19 block there. I said it before: This has a

20 few wrinkles. The process potentially is a

21 good process if we allow it the time and we

22 put the energy collectively together to work
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1 our way through it. It's going to have some

2 bumps. It's going to have some bruises. We

3 can work our way through it. But to take and

4 move forward with the motion that we currently

5 have before us is not the way to do it. 

6 We talk about clarity. We talk

7 about substance. We talk about doing

8 something so that everybody understands it. 

9 Taking the current motion, referring it back

10 to the subcommittee is only going to do

11 nothing more than add more gray clouds, more

12 confusing information back. And I think it is

13 going to make it more troublesome. And I

14 don't think that's the way we should proceed. 

15 Let's give this due process a try and see what

16 we can make of it.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Colehour?

18 MR. BONDERA: Thank you, Madam

19 Chair. I appreciate a lot going on. So I

20 guess I just -- following I guess what John

21 and Tracy said, and I guess Harold, too, now,

22 I think my feelings come down to -- I mean,
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1 one way, it's not the only way, but I think I

2 said this probably -- I don't know the last

3 time I said it, but I've said it before, I

4 really think that we all need to be working

5 together. 

6 And I think you guys all just

7 pointed out very clearly one of the issues at

8 hand is, well, there's a different process

9 happening in Handling based, like Harold just

10 referred to, how it was going in Crops and

11 these are different. And I think that that's

12 sort of for me the linchpin in terms of we all

13 need to be following the same process and

14 using the same process and not arbitrarily,

15 depending on who was appointed chair of which

16 subcommittee at which moment -- and I'm

17 talking not right now who's chair of which

18 ones, but three years from now or whenever,

19 they could come up with whatever they want to

20 come up with or that feels good at that moment

21 that is just created. 

22 We don't have -- yes, we could
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1 say, well, the PDS should come up with some

2 new policy and maybe the NOP will approve

3 that, etcetera, etcetera. That's all

4 hypothetical. We don't have a process that

5 we're all following equivalently to reach

6 these conclusions whether or not -- like John

7 said, it's we all vote, or it's just done by

8 review, or whatever it is. There isn't one in

9 place that we're all making use of equally. 

10 And that's for me where I think we have to

11 start is on an equal level playing field so

12 we're all pursuing things, not with the same

13 conclusions, not with the same votes,

14 etcetera, but we're all using the same

15 process, because otherwise, it doesn't feel

16 fair and even to me. 

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other comments? 

18 Mac?

19 MR. STONE: So in looking through

20 the Crops recommendations, as well as the

21 Handling, because it's new, the wording could

22 be a little more verbose, John, robust, but it
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1 is clear and they are consistent that motion

2 to remove, something that we sort of decided

3 as a group to get it in front of the full

4 Board that it is clear. No matter what the

5 vote is, you can see some deliberations at the

6 committee level. When it's four-three, well,

7 there's mixed feelings about whether we move

8 it or not, and we can have that conversation.

9 So I'm perfectly comfortable with what both

10 committees have put forward at this point.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea?

12 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you. Well,

13 I've been thinking about this a lot and I

14 decided to write my statement so that I could

15 get through it properly, which is more a

16 statement of my feelings than it is about

17 procedure exactly, but that's what I'm going

18 to do is read my statement.

19 I was appointed to fulfill my NOSB

20 responsibilities under rules that we did not

21 make ourselves. Those responsibilities are to

22 review materials in whatever way the NOP has
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1 determined is the procedure for this. My time

2 is best spent in fulfilling these

3 responsibilities and working within the

4 existing rules to make sure there is a good

5 opportunity for gathering public input and

6 seeking information on the materials in front

7 us while trying to keep our process

8 transparent and accessible. I spend many

9 hours a week doing this on my responsibilities

10 here. 

11 I feel that I'm now being

12 distracted and sometimes obstructed from doing

13 my job by those of you who are upset with the

14 politics of this and wish to take up our time

15 both from within and without of the Board by

16 clouding the work on this issue. I do not

17 really trust that my colleagues on the Board

18 are capable of defining those procedures

19 properly instead of the NOP and I think that

20 some of them may possibly have ulterior

21 motives to remove everything from the list or

22 to bog us down because they don't like the
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1 political changes or because we didn't follow

2 the procedures. Therefore, I feel that the

3 NOP should be instructing us with what the

4 procedures we are to follow in this. 

5 What I keep thinking about is what

6 if as each dusk comes and the sun is about to

7 go down and we have to vote for whether it's

8 going to come up in the morning? 

9 (Laughter)

10 MS. SONNABEND: If we fail to get

11 the two-thirds majority, the sun will not rise

12 and it is the end of the world. 

13 (Laughter)

14 MS. SONNABEND: Our confidence

15 that the sun can still come up tomorrow is

16 similar to our hope that organic can work

17 within the system that is laid out for us in

18 the rules. It is not incumbent on us to make

19 these changes, as one commenter said. So I

20 think we need to leave the politics to the

21 politicians and enable us to do our jobs. 

22 Thank you.
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1 (Applause)

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jay, did you

3 have a comment?

4 MR. FELDMAN: You know, when we

5 created this process we thought we were

6 creating a democratic process. We've learned

7 since September 16th that this isn't a

8 democratic process. We had collaboration

9 built into the procedures. Not everybody has

10 grown up in a part of society where they can

11 trust that they have access to people in

12 positions of power and can have meetings and

13 closed doors, change policies overnight,

14 rewrite them. Not everybody is on the

15 positive end of the receiving of those types

16 of power relationships that undermine process,

17 which is intended to protect all of us rather

18 than some of us. 

19 We were handed a procedure and the

20 procedure says very clearly; we still haven't

21 heard from the Program, that the subcommittee

22 will provide justification that demonstrates
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1 that the substance is either harmful to human

2 health, unnecessary because of unavailability

3 or availability and inconsistent with organic

4 production or handling. 

5 You know, engineers are not just

6 concerned with the outcome. They're concerned

7 with the process. And I went to planning

8 school where we talked about participatory

9 planning because the planners figured out that

10 if a bunch of experts got in a room without

11 engaging the people they were building for,

12 designing for, spaces, communities, buildings,

13 societies, transportation systems, that those

14 systems failed, and they failed badly. And

15 then we began rebuilding those systems. So I

16 learned from a lot of people that experienced

17 a lot of failures in process and in outcomes

18 that the process is almost always as important

19 as the outcome and the process enhances the

20 outcome, protects the outcome.

21 And so when we were handed this

22 new policy, we looked at it from a legal
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1 standpoint and we asked ourselves do we

2 believe this is in compliance with the

3 statute? But we also asked ourselves what do

4 we need to do to comply with the policies as

5 they had been presented to us? 

6 And it hurt me as a member of this

7 Board to find out that members were meeting,

8 not as full Committee members, but meeting to

9 create the process that had been handed to us

10 in the Federal Register and that it was being

11 reconstructed, and that I didn't hear a word

12 from the National Organic Program which had

13 gone to great lengths to bring the whole Board

14 in, to train the Board on the new procedures

15 and present this language to us: "If the

16 subcommittee has obtained new information

17 since its last review that supports a motion

18 to remove a substance from the National List,

19 the subcommittee will provide justification

20 that demonstrates." 

21 And that was explained to us as

22 justification that requires some review, some
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1 attempt at collecting information through TRs,

2 through certifiers, through all the

3 information points that can provide the

4 information for us to make decisions that can

5 stand up to what the public expects, that

6 maintain the public trust in the label. 

7 Madam Chair, the most confusing

8 part of this conversation for me is that we

9 have procedures and often over my history on

10 this Board we've referred to those procedures

11 constantly, about how we must honor the

12 previous boards, we must honor the process, we

13 must honor the authority of the AMS and the

14 USDA. And the Board has always done that

15 until now where the Board has said we want to

16 change the process. And the NOP appears to be

17 sitting by and allowing that to happen even

18 though it doesn't allow it to happen in other

19 contexts. 

20 If that doesn't define arbitrary

21 and capricious and define a process that, I

22 think -- Zea, I think really does undermine
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1 the value of all the good work you do to bring

2 science to this process. If we can't stand

3 behind a process that is understandable,

4 consistent and clear, then all that good

5 science will be distrusted. 

6 So I would like to hear from the

7 Program on this. What is meant by

8 "justification that demonstrates?" Because I

9 took that to heart. And I believe in our

10 subcommittee, if you look -- Mac, if you look

11 in the Crops documents --

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Just remember

13 you're addressing comments to the Chair.

14 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Madam Chair,

15 if you look in the Crops documents versus the

16 Handling documents, you'll see an attempt to

17 do checklists, to come up with the science to

18 either justify or not justify that the

19 criteria, the OFPA criteria are met. That's

20 our job as Board members. We signed up to do

21 that and I don't want to go off this Board

22 letting this rest on the notion that this is
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1 a little wrinkle and we should just ignore it

2 because we want to get to the outcome that we

3 want to get to. 

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Let me clarify

5 where we are.

6 (Applause)

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Let me clarify

8 where we are. There was a main motion brought

9 from the subcommittee to remove tragacanth

10 gum. Jay raised a point of order, a

11 procedural order, which is not a debatable

12 motion. It's just a point of order which the

13 Chair could rule on. I determined not to rule

14 on that, but invited a motion to send back to

15 subcommittee. This is a subsidiary motion

16 which we are presently debating so that the

17 motion on the floor under debate is a motion

18 to send this material back to subcommittee

19 based on procedural issues coming out of the

20 new sunset procedure.

21 Are you ready to vote on that?

22 (No audible response)
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No? Okay. 

2 Colehour and then Nick.

3 MR. BONDERA: Yes, I'm not ready

4 to vote on it in part along the lines of what

5 Jay just brought up. I would like to hear

6 from the Program what is going to happen if

7 these get sent back to subcommittee in terms

8 of like we've been discussing? Is something

9 going to change or four or six months from now

10 are they just going to come back the same? 

11 Because if the Program isn't committed to make

12 some changes in this process, then I don't see

13 some value. So I think in my opinion we need

14 to hear from the Program before we vote on

15 this motion. Thank you.

16 MR. McEVOY: Okay. Well, we

17 started this in September of 2013 with the

18 revision to the sunset process and we

19 clarified that there's two parts to that

20 process, and that is that the NOSB has to

21 complete the review of all the sunset

22 materials every five years. After that review
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1 is complete then the Secretary can then

2 potentially renew those substances on the

3 National List. If those things don't occur,

4 then those substances sunset or become invalid

5 and can no longer be used.

6 So within that Federal Register

7 notice we provided that the full Board is the

8 only one that makes these determinations. The

9 subcommittees -- with all the work that the

10 NOSB does, the subcommittees have a role to

11 play. Their role is to look at particular

12 issues, whether they're petitions or sunset

13 materials or other agenda items that the Board

14 is working on and focus on those and bring

15 proposals, bring their information, discussion

16 documents, a variety of different things to

17 the full Board. It's only the full Board that

18 makes those final determinations, those final

19 recommendations. So it's the full Board that

20 completes the review of those substances. 

21 As we said in the September 2013

22 notice, that completion of the review by this
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1 body, by the National Organic Standards Board,

2 does not require a vote and NOSB does not --

3 OFPA does not require a vote, but it does

4 require the Board to complete their review.

5 We heard from the public and we

6 heard from the Board members that you all

7 wanted to have a vote for these substances, so

8 we accommodated that under the provisions of

9 the September 2013 Federal Register notice and

10 we clarified that in a memo to the Board just

11 a few weeks ago which specifically states,

12 "The Organic Foods Production Act of 1990

13 requires that the National Organic Standards

14 Board, a 15-member federal advisory committee,

15 review all substances and the Secretary of

16 Agriculture renew these substances within five

17 year of their addition to or renewal on the

18 National List. This action of NOSB review and

19 USDA renewal is commonly referred to as the

20 sunset process.

21 "Since the publication of the

22 sunset process notice in the Federal Register
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1 on September 16th, 2013 the Agricultural

2 Marketing Service has received feedback from

3 the public and the NOSB concerning the role of

4 the subcommittees in the sunset review

5 process. AMS has received requests to clarify

6 that the NOSB completes the sunset review, not

7 the subcommittees. AMS is reiterating that

8 the NOSB is responsible for reviewing all

9 substances under the sunset process. 

10 "The NOSB will complete its 2015

11 sunset review process for seven substances at

12 the October 2014 public meeting. The NOSB

13 Crops Subcommittee has conducted a preliminary

14 review of three substances and includes a

15 motion to remove for each substance. The NOSB

16 Handling Subcommittee has conducted a

17 preliminary review of four handling substances

18 and included a motion to remove for each

19 substance.

20 "During the October 2014 meeting

21 the NOSB will conduct a vote to remove for

22 each substance that is under 2015 sunset
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1 review. Whether the motions to remove pass or

2 fail, the completion of the vote by the NOSB

3 concludes the review process for each

4 substance. A failed motion on a substance

5 indicates that the NOSB determined a substance

6 continues to meet OFPA criteria and AMS may

7 publish a Federal Register notice announcing

8 that the listing will be renewed for five

9 years. 

10 "A passed motion on a substance

11 indicates that the NOSB determined a substance

12 no longer meets the OFPA criteria and the NOSB

13 will make a recommendation to AMS for removal

14 of the substance. AMS will review the

15 recommendation and determine whether to

16 proceed with rulemaking to remove the

17 substance from the National List. 

18 "The NOSB plays a critical role in

19 reviewing substances to ensure that all

20 substances on the National List meet the

21 criteria specified in the Organic Foods

22 Production Act and AMS thanks the NOSB for its
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1 critical work on the National List."

2 So I read that because I think

3 it's important to go back to what we said

4 about this, that the work that you're doing

5 here is -- the vote that you would take on

6 these motions is in complete alignment with

7 the procedures that were outlined in the

8 September 16th, 2013 Federal Register notice.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nick?

10 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, Miles, so I

11 just want to emphasize what was in that memo

12 and what you just said, which is that the

13 procedures from September 2013 are now further

14 explained in your memo so that a vote of the

15 full Board completes the review of all sunset

16 materials. Am I correct that that now

17 represents additional information that was not

18 in the September '13 material?

19 MR. McEVOY: Well, it includes

20 additional information. This is specific for

21 this particular meeting, that all the

22 substances up for review have come out of the
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1 subcommittees with a motion to remove. So now

2 you have an opportunity to vote on those

3 motions to remove.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I have -- 

5 MR. MARAVELL: So --

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: -- Tracy then

7 Zea then Jay.

8 MR. MARAVELL: Can I have a

9 comment?

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh, I'm sorry,

11 Nick.

12 MR. MARAVELL: So that going

13 forward my concern remains we not get caught

14 in this over and over again. So you're saying

15 you would have to issue another memorandum

16 prior to the next meeting to clarify this same

17 situation?

18 MR. McEVOY: The plan is to work

19 with the Policy Development Subcommittee on

20 clarifying these aspects of the process. So

21 that is a common part of this wonderful

22 process is that there's always ways to provide
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1 additional clarification or procedures that

2 meet the needs of the community.

3 MR. MARAVELL: So the September 13

4 guidance, or procedure can have additional

5 material added to it which might reflect how

6 we are -- which might reflect how we are

7 proceeding now?

8 MR. McEVOY: Exactly. It's very

9 similar to what has happened with previous

10 Federal Register notices on sunset or the

11 petition process where the particular

12 procedures are outlined in those Federal

13 Register notices, and then the National

14 Organic Standards Board through their Policy

15 Development Subcommittee provides additional

16 guidance or clarification on how those

17 particular elements are going to further

18 implemented. So it's a process that has

19 occurred over and over again.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tracy then Zea.

21 MS. FAVRE: Thank you, Miles, for

22 that clarification and that additional
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1 information for our discussion. 

2 Colehour, to your point about

3 wanting to come up with a process that gives

4 us clarity going forward, I actually am in

5 support of that, too. I think generally

6 philosophically I agree with Jay, I agree with

7 Colehour in that we have to have a process

8 that everybody is consistent on. 

9 I think the difference that I see

10 is that we're on a moving train. We don't

11 have the luxury given the timeline for the

12 sunset to stop everything, put everything on

13 hold until we reach a perfect solution. So I

14 feel as though we came up with some interim

15 solutions, meaning temporary and to a specific

16 point to get some forward progress while we

17 work out the details. 

18 The fact that the Policy

19 Development Subcommittee is going to have an

20 opportunity to work with the Program on this

21 I think is indicative of the spirit of

22 collaboration that we want to see going
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1 forward and that we will have some input and

2 opportunity to help polish this new procedure

3 as we go forward. 

4 And I would like to remind

5 everybody that failure to move on these

6 materials leaves further uncertainty in the

7 community and the industry. We've had

8 multiple comments here over the last two days

9 urging us to not let procedural shenanigans,

10 for lack of a better word, halt our forward

11 progress and that there is real impact and

12 hardship by our failure to make decisions as

13 we move forward.

14 So while, Jay, I appreciate your

15 comments and I respect your position on that,

16 I do feel like this is an opportunity for us

17 to move forward at the same time recognizing

18 that there's additional things we can do to

19 make the process better.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea and then

21 Jay.

22 MS. SONNABEND: It's a question
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1 for Miles. The thing that isn't clear to me

2 is what statement or action we could do at a

3 future meeting or at this meeting if we were

4 to withdraw a motion to remove that would be

5 definitive that we had completed the review of

6 the material in a way that that would stand up

7 to public scrutiny and possible legal

8 challenge.

9 MR. McEVOY: I'm not sure what the

10 question is.

11 MS. SONNABEND: Well, it's very

12 convoluted this motion to remove thing when we

13 it's not really our intent to remove

14 something. And so, I would much rather -- I

15 think most of us agree that the full Board

16 should review something, but you're saying the

17 only way the full Board can be on record is by

18 this motion to remove. So I'm asking if the

19 full Board can complete the review and what

20 that would look like in the transcripts to

21 complete a review without a motion to remove.

22 MR. McEVOY: Yes, you could --
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1 when you're done, you're -- for instance, this

2 is not happening this time because there's a

3 motion to remove for all the substances. If

4 the subcommittee had not brought forward a

5 motion to remove and then there was a

6 discussion with the whole Board about that

7 particular substance and that discussion

8 ended, then the review of that substance would

9 be complete. 

10 So what we've heard is that

11 there's sort of that feeling of lack of

12 closure potentially if there's not a vote, so

13 therefore that's why a lot of people wanted to

14 see a vote on these substances, and that's

15 what's happening at this particular meeting is

16 there's a motion to remove on all those

17 various substances.

18 And I would also just point out

19 that there are many motions that are brought

20 forward to the NOSB for consideration that the

21 motioner and the seconder do not vote for the

22 motion. Many of the petitions that are
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1 motions to add something to the National List,

2 the motioner may vote against that, but they

3 still need to bring that to the table so that

4 there can be a vote on that particular topic.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jay?

6 MR. FELDMAN: I don't want to beat

7 a dead horse. I just want to maybe say you

8 can choose to answer this or not at this

9 point. I would like to get clarification on

10 what the Program meant when it told the

11 subcommittee that it should provide

12 justification that demonstrates that the

13 substance meets one of the OFPA criteria. 

14 I took that seriously when I saw

15 it and I want about developing a checklist

16 with the justifications and the demonstrations

17 in accordance with the rules. If it means

18 something less than that or something more

19 than that, I think the Board should know that

20 because that has always been central to our

21 process. I mean, I don't think I'm saying

22 anything new here, but I don't feel that your
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1 reading of the October 8th memo answered that

2 question. What it did was that it told the

3 public that the NOSB had advanced through the

4 subcommittee process motions to remove and

5 therefore there would be a full vote. It

6 didn't answer the question as to whether the

7 subcommittee followed the procedures in the

8 Federal Register that it shall and must

9 justify and demonstrate that the substance

10 meets or fails OFPA criteria. That's a very

11 simple question. But I recognize I may not

12 get an answer, so I don't want to belabor my

13 point.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Miles?

15 MR. McEVOY: Well, I would say the

16 subcommittees absolutely followed the

17 procedures and the procedures are being

18 followed by the motions that they brought

19 forward. 

20 What we want to ensure is that the

21 focus is on those criteria that are in OFPA,

22 that that should be the consideration by the
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1 Board for any additions. Removals or changes

2 to listings on the National List should be

3 based on the Organic Foods Production Act. 

4 But the subcommittees certainly followed

5 procedure.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Are we

7 ready for the question? There is a -- Nick?

8 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, having

9 seconded the motion I'd like to make some of

10 my intent clear and make an observation. 

11 We certainly do not want to create

12 any disruption in the field for any of the

13 handlers in this case. This is a handling

14 provision. And so, I think the field can rest

15 assured that that will not be an outcome of

16 what we're doing here. It's not anyone's

17 intent.

18 My simple observation is that,

19 yes, I agree with John, having been associated

20 with OFPA before 1990 and going forward, that

21 there have been always been wrinkles every

22 step of the way. Unfortunately, those
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1 wrinkles have very often come about because

2 the Agency, USDA, did not take the full intent

3 and the letter of the statute to heart. 

4 That's only been in certain cases where the

5 wrinkles have come from, but there have been

6 those wrinkles.

7 And so as a representative of

8 farmers who are fond of saying if it ain't

9 broke, don't fix it, we have sort of found

10 ourselves in another quandary here. We will

11 work this out. This will go forward. We will

12 be in compliance with the statute. I know the

13 agency wants to do that. And so, I think

14 everyone can rest assured that this will be an

15 iterative process. Okay. We're trying it in

16 2015. We will go forward and we will make

17 this work, but there will be unfortunately

18 some wrinkles, some new wrinkles, some of

19 which are of our own creation. 

20 And I'm seriously sorry if this

21 disrupts any member of the organic community. 

22 This is really sort of an internal thing here,
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1 and so we will try to minimize any impact that

2 that has on people's commerce. Thank you.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Are we ready

4 for the question on the subsidiary motion?

5 (No audible response)

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I believe that

7 we are. There is a motion on the floor

8 arising out of a procedural question and a

9 rule to the Chair, request to the Chair, point

10 of order to the Chair, which is now in the

11 form of a subsidiary motion to send tragacanth

12 gum back to the subcommittee. The motion was

13 made by Jay, seconded by Nick. I think this

14 has been a good discussion and very glad to

15 have it. And I believe we're ready for the

16 question. And I think I start with Tracy. Do

17 I start with you? Yes.

18 MS. FAVRE: Just to clarify we're

19 voting on the motion to send it back to

20 committee?

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Right. A yes

22 vote would send it back to subcommittee. A no
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1 vote will take us simply back to the main

2 motion.

3 MS. FAVRE: So, no. 

4 MR. DICKSON: No. 

5 VICE-CHAIR FOSTER: No.

6 MR. STONE: No, ma'am. And we're

7 not in a hurry here.

8 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

9 MR. AUSTIN: No.

10 MS. FULWIDER: No.

11 MS. SONNABEND: No.

12 DR. WALKER: Yes.

13 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

14 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

15 DR. TAYLOR: Yes.

16 MR. THICKE: Yes.

17 MS. BECK: No.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No.

19 MR. STONE: I get nine yes, six

20 no.

21 (Laughter)

22 MR. STONE: Correct. Nine no --
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: He's from

2 Kentucky. He can't count.

3 MR. STONE: Nine no, six yes. 

4 Excuse me.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The motion

6 fails. We will now move to the main motion. 

7 The main motion on the floor is a motion to

8 remove tragacanth gum from the National List. 

9 MR. MARAVELL: Madam Chair, just a

10 point of order. Do we need to withdraw the

11 original point of order or not? Do we need to

12 withdraw Jay's original point of order before

13 we proceed? So there's --

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No.

15 MR. MARAVELL: -- he made a point

16 of order and there's no ruling and we don't

17 need to withdraw it?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No, because we

19 converted it into a subsidiary motion. So the

20 Chair did not rule on the point of order.

21 MR. MARAVELL: Okay. That's fine. 

22 I just want to make sure everybody's clear.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Discussion on

2 the main motion? Harold?

3 MR. AUSTIN: Lisa, have we done

4 your part yet? I've lost track.

5 DR. BRINES: I believe I did. 

6 Thank you.

7 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you. I'll turn

8 this over to Joe to handle the discussion for

9 the Handling Subcommittee. Thank you, Joe.

10 MR. DICKSON: And, yes, tragacanth

11 gum. Let me find it here in my notes. And

12 Dr. Brines has already given the introductory

13 piece of this. I couldn't remember,

14 seriously.

15 So as Dr. Brines recounted, the

16 substance was originally reviewed and added to

17 205.606 in May 2008. At the time the

18 petitioner and the committee noted that there

19 were extremely limited growing regions for the

20 plant from which this material is extracted

21 and there was no organic gum in production at

22 that time. 
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1 We reviewed the material and at

2 the spring meeting encouraged any current

3 users of the material or certifiers of such

4 users to come forward and testify and show us

5 that there was continued demand for this

6 substance. We did not hear from any users

7 until yesterday. One of the certifiers

8 relayed a message from one of her clients. 

9 Through the certifier that client submitted a

10 letter to the subcommittee detailing his

11 technical reasons for using this particular

12 gum in a mint product. 

13 Based on that information and this

14 narrative of this particular producer who

15 makes a single product that is entirely

16 dependent on this material, I do believe that

17 we have seen a demonstration of continued

18 demand for the use of this gum.

19 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Joe. 

20 We'll open it up for discussion at this time. 

21 Are there any questions, any discussion?

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea?
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1 MS. SONNABEND: I have a question

2 about that letter, if it's appropriate. Is

3 agar on the National List? Because that's

4 what he said his product contained besides

5 gellan gum. I mean, besides tragacanth gum.

6 MR. AUSTIN: Yes, agar is on the

7 List.

8 MS. SONNABEND: Is on the National

9 List. 

10 MR. AUSTIN: Yes.

11 MS. SONNABEND: Okay.

12 MR. AUSTIN: We reviewed it when

13 we first got on. I did, yes.

14 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you. Sorry.

15 MR. AUSTIN: I was the lead on it.

16 Is there any further discussion or

17 -- Nick?

18 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, Joe, you said

19 you reviewed this information. Was it written

20 or was it verbal? I mean, we heard it at the

21 podium.

22 MR. AUSTIN: Yes, for
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1 clarification I would inform the Board that we

2 were presented with this information earlier

3 today. 

4 MR. MARAVELL: Oh.

5 MR. AUSTIN: All of the Board

6 members should have received a copy of it in

7 front of you.

8 MR. MARAVELL: This is the first

9 time I've seen it. It must have missed my

10 seat. Okay. All right. That clarifies it. 

11 Thank you.

12 MR. AUSTIN: Zea?

13 MS. SONNABEND: I guess I think

14 this example of getting this letter this

15 morning and not before points out a flaw in

16 starting out a new process like this. 

17 Obviously the notice didn't get around to this

18 person in the last comment period and because

19 the system of the new policy is new, I think

20 that might happen to us for the next while. 

21 It could have already happened with sherry and

22 marsala. We don't really know. 
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1 But because of that, while I might

2 not be inclined to vote for this if I had more

3 complete information, I will give it the

4 benefit of the doubt and say that this is

5 probably worth keeping until such time as we

6 can do more thorough investigation in the next

7 round of sunset and the procedures are more

8 clear.

9 MR. AUSTIN: I think for the

10 benefit of the Board and I think for the

11 gallery as well it was the original intent of

12 the subcommittee when we moved this forward,

13 and you can see that -- no, I guess you can't

14 see it with this, but we were leaning towards

15 keeping this on and then as we got into the

16 public comment period, the lack of any

17 comments coming back in had led the

18 subcommittee during our discussions on our

19 calls to begin to lean towards allowing this

20 to move off of the list and technically delist

21 it and allow it to sunset until we heard the

22 commentary yesterday and then this new piece
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1 of information provided for us. 

2 So originally we were going to

3 leave it on and then we heard absolutely

4 nothing until yesterday. In the written

5 comments there was nothing coming until we saw

6 this. So that was kind of our original

7 intent. So I think just for clarity we've

8 kind of moved both sides of the spectrum on

9 this, which I think is really what openness

10 and transparency about this entire process is

11 all about.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nick?

13 MR. MARAVELL: Madam Chair, just

14 an observation. Again, just if I were a

15 farmer reading the Handling Committee

16 recommendation on this; it reads very similar

17 to the recommendation on gellan gum, I would

18 not know the true intent of the subcommittee. 

19 And so this is just an observation.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other comments? 

21 Jay?

22 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. I'm trying to
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1 understand what the subcommittee did, so maybe

2 it's obvious to others, but a search of the

3 medical literature shows no new safety

4 information or other medical data related. 

5 Does that mean you all did a checklist? What

6 was the process in this review? Madam Chair,

7 I'm trying to get an understanding of whether

8 we're still using checklists, how we're going

9 about doing these reviews.

10 MR. AUSTIN: Joe, you want to

11 clarify that?

12 MR. DICKSON: Yes. Jay, we did

13 not use a checklist in the sunset review of

14 this material. As a subcommittee, with our

15 expertise in various areas, we looked at

16 Medline, we looked at various regulatory

17 documents, we conducted a review of this

18 material without the use of a formal

19 checklist. 

20 MR. AUSTIN: I would point out

21 that during this process that the use of a

22 checklist is voluntary. I mean, it's not
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1 mandatory that we use one. 

2 Any further discussion? Nick?

3 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, I'm a slow

4 reader. I tend to agree with Zea. I mean,

5 I'm inclined to go ahead and approve this, but

6 I think that -- Excuse me?

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Speak up.

8 MR. MARAVELL: Oh, I'm sorry. I

9 agree with Zea. I'm inclined to approve this,

10 however, I think the circumstances -- we

11 really haven't had a chance to digest this

12 material. I understand his specific

13 predicament and that very much moves me, but

14 we also have to make sure that we've reviewed

15 this and we feel comfortable with it. And I

16 just want to make another observation. I just

17 barely feel comfortable with it, but hopefully

18 we will have prevented at least one person's

19 catastrophe.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Are we ready

21 for the question? Oh, sorry, Colehour.

22 MR. BONDERA: I actually feel
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1 similar to what Nick just expressed and I

2 would request or suggest that this vote get

3 deferred at least until tomorrow so that

4 there's some chance to have a look at this

5 document that was just stuck on our table, at

6 a minimum. 

7 MR. AUSTIN: I think that's a fair

8 request. Madam Chair?

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That we table

10 this until tomorrow at a set time? Is that

11 the general will of NOSB, that we wait to vote

12 on this until tomorrow?

13 (No audible response)

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Is there anyone

15 that would object to us moving this until

16 tomorrow at a set time, which will be more or

17 less sometime in the afternoon.

18 MR. AUSTIN: I think that would

19 afford the entire Board the opportunity to

20 read the new information.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Good. 

22 Seeing no objection to this, this material
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1 will be considered, taken up tomorrow for the

2 vote. So we move onto the next material?

3 MR. AUSTIN: All right. The last

4 of our 2015 --

5 MS. ROSEN: Point of order, Jean? 

6 Excuse me, Madam Chair. Don't you need to

7 remove the motion if you're going to table it,

8 the original motion to remove?

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That's an

10 interesting question and I don't have a

11 perfect answer to that. It seems to me it's

12 an active motion that we're tabling until it

13 gets reconsidered tomorrow.

14 MR. AUSTIN: As the chair of the

15 Handling Subcommittee, I will withdraw that

16 motion and -- should we withdraw it?

17 PARTICIPANT: It's active. 

18 MR. AUSTIN: It's active? Okay. 

19 Well, it's just been tabled until tomorrow

20 then. 

21 Okay. All right. Moving on. The

22 last of our 2015 sunset review materials,
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1 gellan gum. Lisa?

2 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Harold. The

3 substance gellan gum is currently included on

4 the National List at Section 205.605(a) as a

5 non-synthetic substance It's listed as gellan

6 gum, CAS No. 71010-52-1 with the annotation

7 "high acyl form only." The substance was

8 originally petitioned in 2004 and added to the

9 list in 2010. And in support of the original

10 review a technical report was developed and is

11 available on the NOP's Web site. Thank you.

12 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Lisa. At

13 this point I'd like to turn it over to Joe to

14 handle the presentation for the Handling

15 Subcommittee, please.

16 MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Harold. 

17 I wanted to start this out by summarizing some

18 of the written and oral comments that we've

19 heard about gellan gum over the last couple of

20 days. I think we've had quite an extensive

21 discussion of the material with the public in

22 a number of key issues related to its sunset. 
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1 First of all, we received

2 confirmation from many commenters including

3 numerous current users, certifiers and the

4 primary manufacturer of the material

5 confirming its current use and attesting to

6 its essentiality. A number of companies have

7 actually reformulated their products to

8 replace carrageenan with gellan gum and its

9 current use is widespread in dairy and

10 non-dairy beverages and nutritional supplement

11 beverages, among other products. We also

12 received detailed additional background from

13 its manufacturer during oral comments as to

14 its manufacturer essentiality, technical

15 function and its use as an alternative to

16 carrageenan.

17 Some commenters expressed

18 reservations that there are GMO varieties of

19 Pseudomonas elodea, the bacterium used to

20 produce gellan gum, however, I believe that

21 these concerns are addressed by the fact that

22 the use of GMO organisms would constitute an
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1 excluded method and multiple certifiers have

2 confirmed the compliance of all ingredients,

3 or have confirmed that they confirm the

4 compliance of all ingredients as a routine

5 part of inspection, certification and document

6 review.

7 We also received confirmation

8 today from former Handling chair Julie Weisman

9 that the 2008 Board had full access to the now

10 redacted parts of the petition, as did the

11 authors of the technical review.

12 Finally, some commenters noted

13 that the Handling Subcommittee did not

14 consider the use of ancillary substances in

15 the review of the substance, specifically

16 noting that isopropyl alcohol is used in

17 gellan gum's production but has not been

18 specifically reviewed. I'd like to respond

19 very clearly that this material was considered

20 by this and the 2008 subcommittee and that it

21 is not an ancillary substance, but rather a

22 processing aid that is not present at any
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1 meaningful level in the finished product. 

2 Gellan gum is a non-synthetic

3 substance in wide use with a clear narrative

4 of essentiality and an important role in

5 making a wide variety of organic products

6 possible. For all these reasons I believe

7 that its continued use is justified and

8 supported. That's my summary. Thank you.

9 MR. AUSTIN: Any discussion or

10 questions?

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Discussions and

12 questions? Yes?

13 MR. MARAVELL: Just an observation

14 that if the industry is indeed, which it

15 appears to be doing, shifting away from

16 carrageenan and going into gellan gum, I think

17 this represents a good example of cooperation

18 within the organic community. And I think

19 this is something that should be applauded and

20 we should try to work out more often, so I

21 plan to vote in favor of this. I think we did

22 a good job of dealing with some of the issues,
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1 the microorganism issue, the redacted material

2 issue. And this shows cooperation. This

3 shows good intent. And this is the way we'd

4 like to see things happen. So that's just an

5 observation, Madam Chair.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Are we ready

7 for the question? Jay?

8 MR. FELDMAN: Was there a

9 checklist for this?

10 MR. DICKSON: There was not a

11 formal checklist used as part of the sunset

12 review.

13 MR. FELDMAN: And do you know if

14 when the subcommittee reviewed this that the

15 Consumers Union's comments were considered?

16 MR. DICKSON: They definitely

17 were.

18 MR. FELDMAN: Okay.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea?

20 MS. SONNABEND: The Consumers

21 Union comments provided no citations that we

22 could refer to to justify their positions, and
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1 that was one reason why we considered them but

2 then dismissed them as undocumented. I mean,

3 specifically for gellan gum, not consumer

4 expectation.

5 MR. FELDMAN: Right.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We're ready for

7 the question? 

8 (No audible response)

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The motion on

10 the floor is to remove from the National List

11 gellan gum. Be sure you understand what the

12 no vote means. If you vote no, it means it

13 stays on the List. If you vote yes, then you

14 have removed it. Are you ready for the

15 question?

16 MR. AUSTIN: Point of

17 clarification. The original motion before us

18 was made by Joe Dickson for the record and the

19 second was John Foster.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. The

21 voting will start with Joe.

22 MR. DICKSON: No.
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1 VICE-CHAIR FOSTER: No.

2 MR. STONE: No, ma'am.

3 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

4 MR. AUSTIN: No.

5 MS. FULWIDER: No.

6 MS. SONNABEND: No.

7 DR. WALKER: No.

8 MR. MARAVELL: No.

9 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

10 DR. TAYLOR: Yes.

11 MR. THICKE: No.

12 MS. BECK: No.

13 MS. FAVRE: No.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Chair votes No.

15 MR. STONE: I'll get it right this

16 time. Three yes, twelve no. Motion fails. 

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I was thinking

18 of giving us a break, but Mac says you don't

19 need one. So we'll just go out as you need to

20 and come back so we can keep going with these

21 next bunch. So you can blame him, not me.

22 MR. AUSTIN: Okay. Still staying
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1 with the Handling venue, that completes our

2 2015 sunset materials. Now we're going to

3 move on into the review of the 2016 sunset

4 materials. And there are 10 of those. 

5 I will remind everybody that this

6 is the first posting of these materials for

7 public commentary points and for information

8 gathering points of reference only. There

9 will not be a vote on any of these substances

10 at this point. 

11 We're going to change the

12 arrangement slightly on our presentation. 

13 Since the 2016 sunset materials also starts

14 our process of ancillary substance review,

15 microorganisms is our guinea pig, so to speak. 

16 And with that, we will move forward with that.

17 Lisa, if you could present your

18 reference information on microorganisms,

19 please?

20 DR. BRINES: Yes, thank you,

21 Harold. The listing for microorganisms

22 appears at Section 205.605 of the National
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1 List under paragraph (a) for non-synthetic

2 substances. Technical reports are available

3 for this substance including one from 2003 and

4 one that was commissioned in 2014 in support

5 of this sunset review. It was added to the

6 National List with annotation in 2006. Thank

7 you.

8 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Lisa. 

9 With that, I'll turn it over to Zea to present

10 the Handling Subcommittee's perspective and

11 presentation.

12 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you. Since

13 this was the first posting for this material

14 for 2016 sunset, and Michelle does have it up,

15 we had commissioned a TR and we took the

16 information on the TR. And in our request for

17 additional information to the community we put

18 the points that we particularly were looking

19 for supplemental information on beyond what

20 was in the TR. And that most particularly had

21 to do with the ancillary substances that we

22 are tasked with reviewing along with the
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1 active microorganisms.

2 There is a table in the TR. I

3 believe it's table 3, which is a longer

4 version of this list. We went through the

5 list of ancillary substances and removed the

6 ones that are already on the National List

7 that don't have a specific limitation on use

8 because those already can be used without

9 further review. And so what's left here is a

10 combination of the ones from the TR and ones

11 that we sought to gather from certifiers.

12 Now, we got relatively few

13 comments back on the microorganisms based on

14 this first posting. I wish we had heard

15 particularly from more certifiers with how

16 many of their clients use them and what the

17 range of uses was out there. We did hear from

18 a few of you, and thank you very much, but

19 would have liked to hear from more. And I'm

20 sure we will in the second comment period.

21 From the comments that we did hear

22 back there are a few clear points that we need
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1 to work further on or that we want to address

2 in this discussion. One of them is the

3 definitions of what a microorganism actually

4 is. There's a small annotation in the rule

5 itself which simply says "any food-grade

6 bacteria, fungi and other microorganism." 

7 This could be made clearer and will be made

8 clearer in our summary that we do for the

9 second posting. 

10 For instance, the TR covered

11 bacteriophage and bacteriophages are debatable

12 as microorganisms, and plus their uses are

13 sometimes quite different from those of the

14 other microorganisms in foods. And so, I

15 think we need to take a closer look at whether

16 these really should be included in the

17 category of microorganisms or not.

18 Also, there is a lot of confusion

19 in the community because, well, the National

20 List is confusing, but there are some sort of

21 duplicate listing such as -- dairy cultures is

22 really a subset of microorganisms. And then
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1 there are some products that are derived from

2 microorganisms but not the microorganisms

3 themselves. And so, this listing needs to

4 have a little more definitional work done on

5 which things are in and which things are not

6 included because they have a separate listing

7 on the National List. So we will be working

8 on that and try to get our terminology

9 corrected when we issue the summary.

10 People brought up the need for

11 criteria for defining "fermentation." These

12 people who brought it up seem to think that

13 the NOSB is capable of dealing with everything

14 and that ACAs and material review

15 organizations are not to be trusted to deal

16 with this, but my reaction is that the

17 definition in the rule that includes

18 naturally-occurring biological processes

19 includes the metabolism of substrates by

20 microorganisms and the isolation steps that

21 happen subsequently. 

22 The decision trees given with the
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1 Classification of Materials Guidance help MROs

2 and ACAs further distinguish which isolations

3 and which criteria for feed stocks can be used

4 in how microorganisms are produced. I feel

5 confident that the certifiers and MROs can do

6 a much better job of providing this than us

7 and they have access to the information that

8 is usually confidential from the manufacturers

9 about those feed stocks and isolation and

10 purification techniques.

11 So I'm considering this to be

12 covered other than perhaps -- more training in

13 how to do materials review for the ACAs and

14 MROs will occur after the Classification

15 Materials Guidance and Permitted Substances

16 List becomes final and this issue can be

17 covered through training on that list and

18 procedures.

19 Then the ancillaries. In general,

20 we made it very clear in the ancillary

21 substances policy that we adopted that if no

22 ancillary substances were listed or review
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1 during our process, none would be allowed in

2 the products. This did not count for 2015

3 substances, although we did not find any

4 ancillary substances in them. But in the 2016

5 substances the only ones that we identified as

6 having ancillaries were the microorganisms.

7 Just because we did not say no

8 ancillaries in every single substance there,

9 that means that we did not know of any. The

10 community could have brought them forward in

11 public comment, and they did not. And so

12 therefore, unless ancillary substances are

13 noted in the TR or in our summary that comes

14 forward at the next time, it will be

15 considered that ancillary substances would not

16 be allowed in those products.

17 Now, I just want to talk about

18 what we did to try and identify all the

19 ancillary substances. Besides sending the TR

20 back for a second round of revision so that we

21 could have a more clear and comprehensive list

22 identifying the ancillaries by functional
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1 categories, sending a plea out to certifiers

2 and the organic community to turn in any

3 further ancillary substances from which many

4 certifiers cooperated and sent in all their

5 spec sheets that they are used on behalf of

6 their clients. We looked through dozens and

7 dozens of these spec sheets and MSDSs to

8 determine if there were additional ancillary

9 substances used in the microorganisms. We did

10 not find any beyond these. 

11 We were accused by Beyond

12 Pesticide and NOC of not having a complete

13 list, however, they did not provide any

14 additional ones. When I asked Terry for it,

15 I got back something that just had annotations

16 on the list we already had with the National

17 List substances added back in but no brand new

18 ones. 

19 Cornucopia stated that some

20 chemicals could be added to protect

21 microorganisms from oxidation including sodium

22 chloride and calcium chloride and others, but
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1 they did not provide evidence that these were

2 actually in use in the organic community. And

3 so, hopefully they will do that before the

4 second posting if they would like to have

5 those particular things reviewed. 

6 We did not receive any other

7 public comment of specific ancillaries that

8 were missing in this chart.

9 Now, some of these ones on the

10 chart have been petitioned before to be

11 ingredients in food and they were turned down

12 as ingredients, but that does not mean that

13 they should not be considered as ancillary

14 substances where they occur as a fraction of

15 a percent in any formulation. And no evidence

16 was presented that we should not allow these

17 things in such a use. I expect there may be

18 for our next posting, but it has not been

19 submitted so far.

20 So, we provided this chart and the

21 TR with the expectation that those of you who

22 object to particular things on the chart would
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1 provide evidence why they should not be

2 allowed. If the TR did not find evidence, it

3 is up to you who object to the substance to

4 point out evidence against these things. It

5 is not up to us to find that evidence.

6 All we heard about, as I said, was

7 previous Board actions on some of these, and

8 we will look back into those ones of those

9 that had TRs done on them and were rejected as

10 ingredients to see what type of evidence was

11 presented, but we were not able to do this

12 before the first posting. 

13 Oh, and I guess I should say that

14 a few people said we shouldn't relist

15 microorganisms, but they didn't really say why

16 the microorganisms themselves were a problem. 

17 They only said it because of either

18 ancillaries or because of the procedure for

19 sunset. So that's where we stand with the

20 review. Thank you.

21 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Zea. Are

22 there any questions at this time from the
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1 Board? Jay?

2 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. I wonder

3 if there's any way of getting the TR folks to

4 -- since they indicated that what they were

5 provided the subcommittee or the NOSB with was

6 examples of materials, is there any way to go

7 back to them and get them to investigate a

8 fuller list or a more complete list? 

9 MS. SONNABEND: You mean the few

10 things we added from the spec sheets since the

11 TR was done?

12 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, I mean --

13 MS. SONNABEND: Because this chart

14 in the posting has about three more things

15 that we found from the spec sheets, but

16 they're in these -- no new categories. 

17 They're all in the same category.

18 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Also I'm

19 wondering, it sounds like by the time we get

20 to the second posting the Board will be

21 voting, right? After the second posting the

22 Board will be voting?
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1 MR. AUSTIN: Correct.

2 MR. FELDMAN: So you really need

3 this information before the actual notice goes

4 out to be able to incorporate it in if there

5 is additional information, right?

6 MS. SONNABEND: That's why we did

7 a first posting.

8 MR. FELDMAN: Right. So maybe all

9 the groups that were identified as needing to

10 get back to you hopefully will get back to

11 you.

12 MR. AUSTIN: And that is one of

13 the nice things with the two-step process for

14 public commentary is we can go out during the

15 first posting and ask those specific questions

16 and hopefully we get -- for this listing we

17 would have gotten those answers back already. 

18 But any other questions, comments? Colehour?

19 MR. BONDERA: Yes, thank you, Zea

20 and thank you, Jay, for your comment because

21 it's actually highly correlated with what I

22 was going to say. Although to add to what you
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1 all just said, I think that I'll just remind

2 everybody on the program that the Policy

3 Development Subcommittee did put forth a

4 proposal, a recommendation that was approved

5 by the NOSB so that there is an electronic

6 means for the public to be commenting between

7 meetings. And it doesn't have to be this

8 other format like Zea just said. 

9 Because what I had written down

10 was, "before the second posting." Well, there

11 isn't an established means to do so except for

12 somebody to send a letter or email to a member

13 of the subcommittee, because the Program

14 hasn't been able to take our recommendation

15 and turn it into -- they haven't been thus far

16 able to create a means to do that. And I

17 think that that's a missing piece in this

18 puzzle, frankly, in terms of the public being

19 able to between the two postings communicate. 

20 And so I just want to put that in

21 the record, that it's kind of, in my opinion,

22 a high-level need especially with this double
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1 process with sunset issues. So I really think

2 it's worth paying a lot of attention to the

3 fact that organizations or individuals don't

4 have an established easy means to do what is

5 being now requested in this new sunset

6 process, even though of course they can. I

7 know it's not impossible to do it, but I'm

8 just --

9 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Colehour. 

10 Miles?

11 MR. McEVOY: Yes, the NOSB

12 recommendation on public communication I think

13 was the one that you were referring to that we

14 support the concept of that of having

15 basically an open docket for NOSB matters. 

16 The problem for us is one of resources and

17 implementation of kind of the mechanisms for

18 doing that and the resources that would be

19 required by us to support that particular

20 effort. So the current system is to have the

21 regulations.gov take all the comments from the

22 NOSB so both members of the public and the
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1 NOSB can see all the comments. 

2 In order for us to keep that open

3 all the time it requires us to do a fair

4 amount of work, and it's a matter of juggling

5 all the other things that we have to do to see

6 how we could do that. We're also looking at

7 it in terms of the money that we got for

8 information technology, if there's something

9 in that, but our priority with that money is

10 to work on the organic integrity database to

11 get the list of certified organic operations

12 more up to date. So that's kind of a long

13 rambling answer to that.

14 But we do have the mechanism of at

15 any time folks can provide comments at

16 nop.guidance@ams.usda.gov. So there's always

17 a way for comments to be received. And the

18 downside of that is that those are comments

19 that are then just to the Program, and then

20 the Program looks at those and would then have

21 to somehow redistribute it out to the NOSB,

22 and it's not as transparent. But there is at
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1 least that mechanism for in between time. 

2 And I do know that Lisa wanted to

3 make a comment on the ancillary substances

4 component of this, if that's okay.

5 MR. AUSTIN: Okay. Lisa?

6 DR. BRINES: Yes, just a

7 clarification because there's two reviews that

8 are occurring simultaneously. So there's the

9 sunset review for the microorganisms listing

10 which needs to occur on certain time frames in

11 order for us to complete the sunset process. 

12 Separately there's the ancillary substance

13 review. Any proposals that might come from

14 that could occur in conjunction with sunset,

15 which is how the review is occurring now for

16 efficiency. But that review for ancillaries

17 could conclude at a subsequent NOSB meeting if

18 needed. 

19 So I just wanted to as a

20 clarification point out that those two

21 reviews, though we're discussing them

22 simultaneously, are distinct processes. And
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1 that was explained in our memo to the Board on

2 February 3rd. Thank you.

3 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you for that

4 clarification. Mac?

5 MR. STONE: We heard from the ACA,

6 individual certifiers, OTA, consumer groups.

7 they're communicating a lot of this with their

8 customer base, their individuals. We're

9 obviously building this airplane while we're

10 flying it and we're all in it together. So I

11 think that it's sort of a wake-up call and

12 people are going to work, Zea, to sort of get

13 the word out. It is a new process and none of

14 us want it to crash. 

15 MR. AUSTIN: Any further

16 questions? Jay?

17 MR. FELDMAN: I'm trying to

18 understand this guidance process because last

19 time we were told about guidance on the

20 bioplastic, biodegradable mulch, it sounded

21 really good. It sounded like there would be

22 a collaborative process and there would be
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1 some real guidance to the MROs and how to make

2 a determination on degradation of the

3 bioplastic, and that didn't work out. So on

4 an issue this complicated how do you envision

5 creating a system that's uniform in how MROs

6 made determinations on allowable

7 microorganisms?

8 MR. AUSTIN: Go ahead, Zea.

9 MS. SONNABEND: Since you're

10 looking at me, I think -- but I think what you

11 have is a question for the Department, because

12 they would do the training that would come out

13 in conjunction with the Classification of

14 Materials Guidance. It's not up to the NOSB

15 to do that. 

16 On the biodegradable mulch it

17 wasn't for lack of trying. I tried to put on

18 the work plan several times. 

19 MR. FELDMAN: No, I thought in

20 your --

21 MS. SONNABEND: And I think it

22 should be on our work plan. 
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1 MR. FELDMAN: No -- 

2 MS. SONNABEND: But this should be

3 done between the NOP and the certifier MRO

4 community, I think.

5 MR. FELDMAN: I'm trying to get at

6 whether the NOSB is providing adequate

7 guidance or making an adequate decision

8 vis-á-vis its decision on sunset and maybe the

9 possibility of a petition that would help

10 clarify some of these details around the

11 listing of microorganisms. It sounded to me

12 like you needed to do some petition work in

13 there possibly on the listing for --

14 MS. SONNABEND: I'm not sure what

15 you refer to isn't clear. I mean, I think we

16 need to do some work on the definition, but I

17 think we've been provided that in public

18 comment and we just need to synthesize the

19 public comments with the information in the

20 TR.

21 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. But at the

22 end of the day on the listing that we have
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1 that it will be voted on --

2 MS. SONNABEND: Well, I'm not

3 necessarily proposing a change in the

4 annotation, which is very broad, but I'm

5 proposing in our summary we will say these are

6 the things we've reviewed and consider to be

7 in this category.

8 MR. AUSTIN: I'll remind us all

9 that during this process we cannot make

10 annotations to a material that's under sunset

11 review.

12 MR. FELDMAN: That's why I

13 mentioned the petition process, because there

14 has been some concern that some of these

15 annotations, because they are broad and may

16 need to be narrowed in some respects, would

17 require an annotation change. And the Board

18 was waiting on an expedited petition process

19 so that that could be achieved. 

20 So just in your presentation you

21 touched on a lot of areas that are yet to be

22 resolved as a part of the sunset discussion
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1 and I worry about guidance, I worry about

2 consistency across MROs, I worry about the

3 broadness of the annotations on some of the

4 sunsets and I worry that the Board doesn't

5 have the mechanism it needs to respond to the

6 new science and the new input information that

7 it gets to modernize some of these listings. 

8 So that's a bigger conversation,

9 but it was all a part of your presentation in

10 one way or another.

11 MS. SONNABEND: I agree that -- so

12 certain streamlining of the National List so

13 that maybe dairy cultures and microorganisms

14 could be moved would be a good idea, but

15 sometimes the logistical way of doing it is

16 just way too overwhelming to try and

17 undertake.

18 MR. FELDMAN: Right.

19 MS. SONNABEND: And that's true of

20 a number of the things on the National List. 

21 And then of course anyone could petition at

22 any point if they need some clarification or
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1 another, but I don't feel that we need

2 clarification on this particular listing in

3 order to move forward from the input we've

4 received on the first posting.

5 MR. AUSTIN: Okay. Let's continue

6 moving forward. Any other discussion items

7 with this?

8 Hearing none, let's move onto our

9 next material on the 2016 Handling sunset

10 materials. The next one will be egg white

11 lysozyme, and Tracy will bring this forward on

12 behalf of the Handling -- excuse me, Lisa will

13 give the NOP's presentation, then Tracy.

14 DR. BRINES: Thank you, Harold. 

15 The listing for egg white lysozyme currently

16 is included on the National List at Section

17 205.605(a) as a non-synthetic substance. It's

18 currently listed with CAS No. 9001-63-2. This

19 substance was added to the National List in

20 2006 for technical information. The substance

21 is addressed in a 2011 technical report for

22 enzymes, as well as a 2003 Technical Advisory
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1 Panel report for enzymes, plant and fungal. 

2 Thank you.

3 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you. Tracy?

4 MS. FAVRE: Thank you. Okay. 

5 Public comment around egg white lysozyme. 

6 It's generally a product that's used as an

7 anti-microbial. It's currently listed, as she

8 said, as a non-synthetic substance allowed in

9 handling. 

10 There were several public comments

11 regarding egg white lysozyme. Generally

12 comments against for relisting the material

13 felt like egg white lysozyme produced from

14 commercially-produced eggs presented risks to

15 the environment and the public because of the

16 use of GMO feed and heavy metals in the

17 conventional egg production. 

18 Several commenters remarked on the

19 lack of a specific TR for egg white lysozyme

20 and felt that the general one on enzymes was

21 not sufficient to address the issues around

22 conventionally-raised eggs. 
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1 A few questions were raised

2 regarding the possibility of using organic

3 eggs for egg white lysozyme. 

4 CCOF remarked that it is commonly

5 used in the wine industry and that they

6 currently have 12 clients for the material in

7 use indicating that there is demand for it. 

8 And finally, there were some

9 comments made regarding the fact that egg

10 white lysozyme is primarily used to prevent

11 spoilage and therefore used as a preservative

12 and for that reason should not be allowed. 

13 Thank you.

14 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Tracy. 

15 Any discussion?

16 Seeing none -- Nick?

17 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, that last

18 provision that Tracy just referred to I think

19 needs some clarification in general. I don't

20 know if the Program can provide it, but my

21 understanding -- and I could be wrong here,

22 Tracy -- is that only refers to synthetic
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1 substances. But if someone could clarify

2 that, that synthetic substances can't be used

3 primarily as preservatives for color and taste

4 enhancers, et cetera. 

5 And I forget the exact section of

6 the regulation that that's in, but you may

7 have that. But I was just wondering if there

8 was some clarification. So if we're looking

9 at a non-synthetic substance, would that

10 section apply, I guess is my question.

11 MR. AUSTIN: Tracy?

12 MS. FAVRE: Frankly, I was only

13 reporting generally the categories of comments

14 rather than remarking on their accuracy or

15 not, but that's a good point.

16 MR. AUSTIN: Any further

17 discussion?

18 Seeing none, we'll continue to

19 move on. Our next material to present will be

20 L-malic acid. Joe, if you would take point on

21 that, please? Excuse me. Lisa?

22 DR. BRINES: We'll get it by the
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1 end. The listing for L-malic acid is

2 currently included on the National List at

3 Section 205.605(a) as a non-synthetic

4 substance. It was added to the National List

5 in 2006 and the most recent technical report

6 is available from 2003. Thank you.

7 MR. AUSTIN: It's good that we're

8 straight across the room and we have eye

9 contact. That's excellent. 

10 Okay. Joe, over to you.

11 MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Harold. 

12 On L-malic acid, just to quickly summarize the

13 public written and oral comments that we

14 received. We did hear from a number of food

15 manufacturers who are using L-malic acid

16 currently, the Hain Celestial Group in

17 particular. Two certifiers confirmed to us

18 that they have many current clients using the

19 material. 

20 A few commenters had technical

21 concerns about the TR that was used. Beyond

22 Pesticides and NOC both expressed concerns
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1 about whether the correct form of malic acid

2 was addressed in the technical report and the

3 subcommittee will look very seriously at those

4 concerns between now and the spring meeting. 

5 MR. AUSTIN: Any discussion?

6 Seeing none, we will move onto the

7 next material. Next material on our list is

8 activated charcoal. Lisa?

9 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Harold. The

10 listing for activated charcoal is currently

11 included on the National List at Section

12 205.605(b) as a synthetic substance. The

13 current listing reads, Activated charcoal, CAS

14 Nos. 7440-44-0; 646365-11-3, only from

15 vegetative sources for use only as a filtering

16 aid. The substance was added to the National

17 List with its current annotation in 2006 and

18 a previous technical report is available from

19 2002. Thanks.

20 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, and I'll

21 take the lead presentation on this material

22 for the Handling Subcommittee.
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1 In utilization of the current

2 sunset process, and this the first posting for

3 public commentary period, we did post four

4 specific questions to try to garner

5 information for the subcommittee and the Board

6 during this review process. 

7 There were 11 specific comments on

8 activated charcoal. All but one of the

9 commenters were in favor of relisting. Three

10 were support of relisting with an annotation. 

11 The annotation would be for use only to filter

12 water and require steam activation, which is

13 I've previously said, under this process we

14 cannot make any annotations under a material

15 that's under sunset review at this time. 

16 Hopefully in the future.

17 CCOF made a comment that they have

18 13 clients that currently use it, and I think

19 we've had a lot of other commentary during the

20 week, during oral that had talked in support

21 of it. 

22 Ciranda, Inc. mentioned that their
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1 usage has increased during this current sunset

2 cycle. 

3 OMRI suggests that they allow

4 steam-activated charcoal as a source and as a

5 non-synthetic material and thought that we

6 should take a look at asking for public

7 comment back on how much of activated charcoal

8 that is steam-activated generated is there out

9 there and available. 

10 Cornucopia suggests that we have a

11 new technical review, but take no position to

12 relist or delist at this time. 

13 The public comments from the

14 organic stakeholders such as handlers,

15 certifiers, distributors, processors were that

16 this material was still pretty much essential. 

17 It seems that the use during this current

18 cycle has increased and that at this time

19 there does not appear to be a suitable

20 alternative that exists. 

21 There was not a TR requested at

22 this time and currently at the moment there
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1 has not been a current checklist updated at

2 this moment as well. 

3 Any discussion? Seeing none,

4 we'll continue to move on. The next material

5 is paracetic acid. Lisa?

6 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Harold. The

7 current listing for paracetic acid appears on

8 Section 205.605(b) of the National List as a

9 synthetic substance. The listing reads

10 paracetic acid/peroxyacetic acid, CAS No.

11 79-21-0, for use in wash and/or rinse water

12 according to FDA limitations for use as a

13 sanitizer on food contact surfaces.

14 The substance was added to the

15 National List with its current annotation in

16 2006 and a previous technical report is

17 available from 2000 for its processing use. 

18 Thank you.

19 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you. I'll turn

20 it over to John to lead the Handling

21 discussion.

22 VICE-CHAIR FOSTER: Well, I think
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1 the gods were smiling when they assigned

2 paracetic acid to me. Actually it's one of my

3 last materials for review. So because there

4 was relatively -- we had a handful of public

5 comment. There was overall general agreement

6 it was appropriate to retain that on the

7 National List. The worst comments were that

8 it was a reluctant agreement that it should

9 retain on the National List. So that was

10 really the extent of the differences of

11 opinion. 

12 In general, people recognized that

13 it was far superior in the areas of the

14 suitability criteria to other materials such

15 as chlorine compounds, so the committee was

16 fairly uniform in their -- actually I think

17 very uniform in their agreement that it should

18 be retained on the List. In the interest of

19 time I'm going to cut it off there.

20 MR. AUSTIN: Any discussion? 

21 Nick?

22 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, and this is a
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1 very minor point and it's for Lisa. It would

2 be helpful for us when you put the listing

3 down, or whoever puts the listing down, that

4 you could actually put the section number next

5 to the listing as well. And I'll just comment

6 that you read the listing correctly, but I'm

7 not sure of all of what's in the listing is

8 actually listed in our book right here.

9 So I'm just saying it would be a

10 helpful check and an easy reference for us if

11 we want to go back and find it right away

12 rather than having to go down the list and

13 find it. Minor point.

14 DR. BRINES: Thanks. 

15 MR. AUSTIN: Michelle, I think

16 when we put our agenda together, I think what

17 Nick is referring to is that we have it here

18 so that it's an easy reference point. 

19 Nick, is that correct?

20 MR. MARAVELL: What I was

21 referring to was the material that we are

22 looking at in our book which has the sunset
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1 2016 review summary. And maybe this is more

2 directed to Michelle. I assumed Lisa helped

3 put this together since she was reading that,

4 but in the summary information just put the

5 section number so if we want to go into the

6 reg we don't have to look down the list. And

7 just a note that she read it correctly, but

8 all the words were not in the book. That's

9 all.

10 MR. AUSTIN: Okay. Tracy, you got

11 a comment?

12 MS. FAVRE: I'm not quite sure,

13 but there is actually a -- under the

14 recommendation to relist, it does have the

15 section of the regulation in there.

16 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Tracy. 

17 Any further discussion or comments? 

18 Hearing none, we will continue to

19 move on. 

20 Okay. On this next one I'm going

21 to list the three materials that are boiler

22 amines. And then, Lisa, we'll have you read
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1 all three of those and then we'll turn them

2 over, because Jennifer and Tracy worked on the

3 three of these. So we're going to make that

4 kind of a joint presentation as we go forward. 

5 The three materials will be cyclohexylamine,

6 diethylaminoethanol and octadecylamine. Lisa?

7 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Harold. Each

8 of these substances appears on Section 205.605

9 of the National List under paragraph (b) for

10 synthetic substances, and I'll read each

11 listing in full for the record.

12 First is cyclohexylamine, CAS No.

13 108-91-8, for use only as a boiler water

14 additive for packaging sterilization. 

15 Secondly, diethylaminoethanol, CAS No.

16 100-37-8, for use only as a boiler water

17 additive for packaging sterilization. And

18 finally, octadecylamine, CAS No. 124-30-1, for

19 use only as a boiler water additive for

20 packaging sterilization.

21 For each of these substances a

22 technical report was commissioned in 2001, and
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1 those are posted. Substances were each added

2 to the National List in 2006. Thank you.

3 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Lisa. I

4 believe, Tracy, you were going to take the

5 lead on this and then, Jennifer, you're going

6 to add additional commentary? Thank you.

7 MS. FAVRE: Thank you, Harold. So

8 cyclohexylamine, diethylaminoethanol and

9 octadecylamine are all boiler additive amines. 

10 As Dr. Brines said, we did have technical

11 reviews on each of those. In addition, we had

12 the OMRI boiler additive white paper document

13 that we all reviewed as part of this

14 discussion. 

15 Generally on public comments

16 across the board the comments were against the

17 relisting in the boiler additive materials. 

18 Several comments cited the availability of

19 alternative including steam alone for

20 packaging sterilization. 

21 Most comments remarked on the

22 hazardous nature of the materials and felt
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1 that their use was inappropriate for organic

2 handling. And comments came from a variety of

3 stakeholders including the general public,

4 consumer groups and industry manufacturers. 

5 The one comment that we did get

6 sort of mitigating the negative comments was

7 that there might be a disproportionate impact

8 on smaller processors and to allow an

9 appropriate time for transition from the

10 boiler additives to the other technology that

11 would allow them to switch over. Thank you.

12 DR. TAYLOR: And Tracy covered

13 most of the points. I'd just like to add that

14 Cornucopia commented that a current TAP review

15 needed to be completed based on the fact that

16 the TAP review itself took place in 2001, I

17 believe.

18 Alternative practices. Did you

19 talk about that? Okay. They did mention the

20 steam generator as alternative practices. 

21 Smucker's, as well as Cornucopia and OTA, were

22 provided written comments on an alternative
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1 practice. 

2 And as Tracy also mentioned, I'll

3 say again, that generally the public indicated

4 that these substances were toxic to all

5 organic food production systems and they urged

6 the removal of these materials from the

7 National List. Thank you.

8 MR. AUSTIN: Any discussion? 

9 Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you, Tracy. Any

10 discussion?

11 Seeing none, hearing none, we'll

12 continue to move on. Sodium acid

13 pyrophosphate. Lisa, if you could give the

14 NOP statement on that, please?

15 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Harold. 

16 Sodium acid pyrophosphate is included at

17 Section 205.605 of the National List under

18 paragraph (b) for synthetic substances. The

19 listing reads sodium acid pyrophosphate, CAS

20 No. 7758-16-9, for use only as a leavening

21 agent. I did note that the annotation was not

22 included in the packet, so we'll have that
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1 corrected for the next version. 

2 The substance was added to the

3 National List in 2006. A technical report is

4 available from 2001 that addresses sodium

5 phosphates as a group. Thank you.

6 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you. I'll turn

7 it over to Joe Dickson to lead the

8 presentation and discussion on this, please.

9 MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Harold. 

10 Let me just find my SAPP document here.

11 So sodium acid pyrophosphate,

12 heretofore referred to as SAPP. To summarize

13 the public comment, we heard from several

14 current users of the material and trade

15 associations such as IFAC, hearing that from

16 a manufacturer perspective, relisting is

17 critical because it is the only leavening

18 agent with certain technical properties.

19 On the flip side we heard from

20 several consumer groups that there are

21 alternatives out there. And I think we have

22 some kind of subjective territory around
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1 essentiality and technical effect to discuss

2 between now and the spring meeting and at the

3 spring meeting. I think that will be a really

4 interesting discussion.

5 We heard from several

6 manufacturers who are using it and at least

7 two certifiers with multiple clients who are

8 using the material. Additionally, we also

9 heard from Beyond Pesticides and NOC that both

10 organizations had concerns about this

11 technical review as well and whether it was

12 correctly focused on this use of the

13 substance. 

14 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Joe. Any

15 discussion or comments?

16 Seeing none, we will move onto our

17 last material for the day for Handling,

18 tetrasodium pyrophosphate. Lisa?

19 DR. BRINES: Tetrasodium

20 pyrophosphate is currently included on the

21 National List at Section 205.605 under

22 paragraph (b), synthetic substances. The
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1 current listing reads as follows. Tetrasodium

2 pyrophosphate, CAS No. 7722-88-5, for use only

3 in meat analog products.

4 This substance was added to the

5 National List in 2006 and in support of its

6 review an additional limited scope technical

7 report was developed for this sunset review. 

8 There's also a Technical Advisory Panel report

9 from 2002, which is also available. Thank

10 you.

11 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you. Zea, if

12 you would take care of the Handling

13 presentation, please?

14 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you. 

15 Tetrasodium pyrophosphate, here-wise known as

16 TSPP, has been on the National List since

17 2002. In looking back at the older

18 information, we noticed that a large amount of

19 the petition regarding the manufacturing

20 process and the specific things that it was

21 used in was confident where CBI redacted. 

22 The 2002 TAP shed some light on it
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1 that it was clearly a synthetic substance, but

2 did not really get at what things it was

3 actually used in and indicated that it failed

4 to meet several of the criteria for review,

5 and yet it was voted onto the list anyway. 

6 So we commissioned a limited scope

7 TR to specifically address the alternatives,

8 to try and get more information about the

9 specific uses and why it would be the viable

10 choice and why. And then we also raised the

11 concern about it being used as a texturizer

12 for something that would be extremely

13 processed, even though it would start from an

14 organic source.

15 Our preliminary discussion around

16 this substance made us inclined to remove this

17 substance in actuality since the TR came back

18 with many, many alternatives, both alternative

19 vegetarian protein sources and alternative

20 ways of processing protein.

21 As far as public comment, we heard

22 only one comment in favor of keeping it, from
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1 the International Food Additives Council. 

2 Although they state that this would

3 significantly impact the quality and

4 availability of analog meat products if we

5 removed it from the List, as you heard when

6 they gave comment, they were not able to give

7 specific examples in either their written or

8 their verbal testimony. We heard from no

9 users who use this and we heard from no

10 certifiers who have clients who use this.

11 This is a processing aid, not an

12 ingredient, and therefore it would not appear

13 on a product label. And as such, it would be

14 very hard for someone doing a search to try

15 and identify which areas it was used from

16 public information.

17 So we did hear from three

18 organizations and one individual against it: 

19 Beyond Pesticides, Consumers Union and

20 Cornucopia. They agreed with our assessment

21 that there are plenty of alternatives and

22 there are some potential reasons to think that
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1 it would not meet the criteria.

2 So moving forward we will take a

3 look at this further, but I do not feel we've

4 gotten any compelling evidence to change our

5 inclination to remove it from the List. 

6 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, Zea. Any

7 discussion or comments?

8 I would just clarify for the sake

9 of record and to, I guess, further iterate the

10 first step of the sunset process, the new

11 phase of it. During our preliminary review,

12 as Zea stated, for TSPP, it is kind of the

13 sentiment of the Handling Subcommittee that

14 our inclination will be to look at this one

15 for removal from the National List and allow

16 it to sunset off. 

17 We're also considering that same

18 approach to the three boiler amines as well. 

19 We're asking for stakeholder input back to see

20 if ammonium hydroxide would be an adequate

21 replacement for these three amines and if

22 there's any other processes out there that
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1 might also be substitutes. 

2 So for clarity and transparency, I

3 just wanted to let you know that that is the

4 tentative position of the Handling

5 Subcommittee on this preliminary review.

6 And with that, Madam Chair, that

7 ends the Handling presentation for this

8 afternoon.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That's all? I

10 mean, nothing else?

11 MR. AUSTIN: We could keep going. 

12 We have 104 2017. Be careful.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. All

14 right. We can start on next year's now? Oh,

15 okay. Thank you, Harold. You didn't do too

16 bad a job there. Good job, lad. 

17 I would now like to turn it over

18 to the chair of the CACS Subcommittee to take

19 her report. Carmela?

20 MS. BECK: All right. Thank you,

21 Madam Chair.

22 So the Compliance, Accreditation
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1 and Certification Subcommittee worked on one

2 discussion document this past semester, and

3 that was the assessment of soil conservation

4 practices.

5 And so, the NOP issued a memo to

6 the NOSB on April 25th, 2014 tasking us with

7 development of this discussion document. And

8 the origin is that there were concerns raised

9 regarding the appropriate use of soil

10 conservation practices on organic farms. And

11 so, as we're all aware, 205.200 requires that

12 production practices on organic operations

13 must maintain or improve the natural resources

14 of the operation.

15 So some continued background is

16 that the NOP was hoping to evaluate the

17 compliance of how the regulation has

18 implemented the soil conservation provisions. 

19 And so, we opted to publish the 10 questions

20 primarily to get feedback from certifiers and

21 the general public regarding how they assess

22 soil management practices and to determine
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1 what gaps there might be in these assessments. 

2 And so, we received a total of 12

3 comments, and there were 11 organizations and

4 there was 1 individual. And there's a lot of

5 text on here. You'll find that many of the

6 commenters' text is reflected in the general

7 themes. But overall there was a reiteration

8 that soil conservation, as we heard earlier

9 today, is the cornerstone of organic farming,

10 that soil conservation practices are

11 documented in organic system plans, and

12 there's a general understanding that

13 certifiers and inspectors are well-versed in

14 the regulation and that they're well-qualified

15 to determine the compliance with 205.200.

16 Let's see. There was also

17 comments expressing that inspectors have

18 adequate training and that continued education

19 is a requirement. Alternately, there was a

20 comment that said certification personnel were

21 lacking particular conservation expertise and

22 education and that there was an opportunity
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1 for training to be developed.

2 And overall there also was a sense

3 that soil conservation problems aren't

4 necessarily an issue and that in the event

5 that it is an issue, it's the common practice

6 that certification agencies would issue

7 non-compliances when applicable and there are

8 opportunities to request that said operations

9 would work with NRCS and/or the RCD to develop

10 a compliance plan. 

11 So overall there was a preference

12 for continued reliance on a combination of

13 qualitative inspection tools over the

14 quantitative tools that were suggested in the

15 document. The qualitative examples that we're

16 familiar with that inspectors implement

17 include the visual observation, grower

18 interviews, review of harvest records, testing

19 for organic matter levels, inspections that

20 are scheduled at different times of the year,

21 and then year-to-year evaluations, and soil

22 aggregate formations. 
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1 So there was also a common theme

2 that folks wanted us to focus on the broader

3 topic of biodiversity and not just focus on

4 the narrow soil conservation practices. And

5 in the subcommittee we had this conversation

6 about whether or not to broaden the scope, and

7 we determined that we would stick to what the

8 request was in the NOP memo asking us to look

9 at soil conservation assessments. 

10 So there were also some

11 opportunities that were identified or food for

12 thought for us to take back to the

13 subcommittee to consider as we move forward on

14 this document. And so, there's a lot of text

15 there. So there's a need to improve

16 consistency among certifiers and inspectors. 

17 There was a commenter that said

18 that additional education would need to be

19 developed in the event that new requirements

20 were enacted. And the other common theme was

21 that there is actually an opportunity now to

22 develop new trainings and educational
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1 opportunities. 

2 And then there was a request that

3 we don't just make mention of the NRCS, but

4 make mention of other organizations that could

5 complement the work that we do or with whom we

6 could partner to see how we could learn from

7 their quantitative tools.

8 Let's see. So then there was also

9 a couple comments that said that the NRCS and

10 crop consultants actually needed some work

11 themselves to better understand our systems. 

12 And so there is an opportunity there to

13 provide them with educational materials.

14 And then some more innovative

15 thinking came out of CCOF where they talked

16 about perhaps looking at conducting a soil

17 assessment inspection dedicated solely to that

18 every few years to capture what might not be

19 captured in the one snapshot of an annual

20 inspection that takes place. 

21 And then also Nate made reference

22 to the Northeastern University National Soil
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1 Project to look at their testing. So that's

2 something that we can bring back to the

3 subcommittee.

4 Oh, and I guess that concludes my

5 presentation, ma'am. Jean, that concludes my

6 presentation. Sorry.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That was an

8 excellent report. Thank you. Much

9 appreciated.

10 MS. BECK: So are there any

11 questions that we can -- yes.

12 MR. THICKE: I just have a

13 comment. Thanks. It was a good report and

14 good work here. 

15 I think it's good to work with

16 NRCS, but we also have to recognize that NRCS

17 is very prescriptive and isn't very holistic

18 in their thinking. And so, I mean, that's

19 maybe not a good way to put it. And organic

20 systems are very comprehensive and complex and

21 variable and we can't put those prescriptive

22 things in there. But we can learn a lot from
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1 them, I think, and we can use some of their

2 tools, and I think they can learn a lot from

3 us. So working together is a good thing.

4 However, I think that just making

5 soil conservation very visible maybe through

6 communications with the National Organic

7 Program and with the certifiers it will help

8 a lot. Because farmers, no one wants to have

9 erosion problems. We really aware of it and

10 we don't like that at all. And just knowing

11 it's higher on the radar is going to make a

12 difference, I think. 

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Mac?

14 MR. STONE: Yes, to follow up on

15 that, Francis, we think of erosion as a plowed

16 field or the dirt between the rows corn or

17 something, and organic farmers are the last

18 one to want to see any kind of erosion and

19 probably obey the cultural rules of contour

20 farming, et cetera, as well as anyone. 

21 But also to Francis' point, when

22 we have creek crossings for cattle and lanes
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1 to get cattle into different grazing paddocks

2 and heavy use areas and there's lots of other

3 places that erosion can occur. And NRCS does

4 have some great tools and cost share funds and

5 all sorts of things. So I really urge the

6 partnership -- and there's things we can learn

7 and work together. 

8 And of course any farmer can get

9 caught with their pants down if the big storm

10 comes in when you've got open ground in

11 planting season or something, but there are a

12 lot of resources and tools within NRCS and FSA

13 that we should work together on. 

14 And to finish, certifiers, from

15 being through many inspections and -- at our

16 farm and having done inspections on farms,

17 reviewers -- that these certifiers have eyes

18 in the back of their heads and they can tell

19 for several years farmers that are doing it

20 well. 

21 And they can instruct inspectors

22 to look for certain things because they can
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1 see things on paper that a lot of us wouldn't

2 see. So again, a shout out to certifiers,

3 that they're a real asset to helping farmers

4 and work together.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: John?

6 VICE-CHAIR FOSTER: I think

7 Francis hit -- probably my main message is the

8 value that we can get from very active

9 collaboration with the NRCS. 

10 And I'm sure there's other more

11 local organizations that do some of this work

12 that may not have a national profile, but

13 maybe very high profile in a region or a

14 valley or some place that's had these kind of

15 issues. And across all agriculture, not just

16 organic agriculture. 

17 It's another place. It's going to

18 be really interesting because we can learn a

19 lot about how to apply best practices from all

20 farms, not just organic farms. I think

21 anytime we can do that and have the

22 conversation, it's yet another place that
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1 organic practices may be able to encroach a

2 little bit into the conventional space also. 

3 And I've said before on record, I

4 think the value of little tidbits of organic

5 ways that sneak into conventional is a very

6 powerful thing and one I don't think we talk

7 about enough, that the benefit that organic

8 has is true. On the ground that's been

9 converted to organic practices, yes, but if

10 all of conventional ag took one percent

11 improvement from organic practices and applied

12 it across the 97 percent of agriculture in

13 America, that's a huge benefit, and this could

14 very well be an entry point for that. 

15 And then I also wanted to clarify

16 something Carmela said. Why we stuck with the

17 scope of work that the NOP provided was that

18 -- and we had good, good thorough

19 conversations about this in subcommittee --

20 was that the topic of a much broader issue was

21 too much to handle, really, trying to tackle

22 all of soil management, what that means for
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1 crop production cycles and implements. 

2 And that was too big a piece. We

3 felt like it was appropriate, the scope of

4 request was appropriate and we wanted to make

5 sure we could deliver something that was

6 tangible in the areas that we were asked. 

7 That's why we limited it to that scope. 

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And I think we

9 should also add -- just a sec, Nick -- is that

10 we also -- I'm also on that subcommittee -- is

11 that we will be turning this into a proposal

12 during this spring semester ready for the

13 April meeting. So we'll have a proposal

14 format to be voted on based on public input

15 and our work.

16 Nick?

17 MR. MARAVELL: Carmela, I think

18 one of the take-aways here is if you mention

19 NRCS, you got a hot button here. And we've

20 heard some very pointed and good information. 

21 NRCS is capable of being helpful

22 and for a long time the organic farmers have
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1 sort of flown under the radar in terms of

2 NRCS, and that's because they don't understand

3 our systems. And when you accept their fixes

4 or their tools, you also accept some strange

5 restrictions that don't necessarily apply in

6 any way to an organic system. 

7 And the Department has been

8 working on that to try and turn that around,

9 but what I'm hoping is that through this

10 process both sides can learn and that we can

11 help turn that around a little bit. 

12 And then maybe what John is saying

13 is that a lot of that will find its way into

14 the conventional farming community as well. 

15 Because while organic farmers have good reason

16 to fly under the radar on some of these

17 issues, a lot of the conventional farmers are

18 trying to do the same. And if there were

19 things that were more easily implementable and

20 more forward looking, I think there would be

21 much better communication and cooperation

22 between the farming community and the NRCS on
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1 some of these issues.

2 So hopefully this will be an

3 opportunity -- maybe Betsy should be involved

4 more closely with this, too, so that it has

5 some impact within the Department. I mean,

6 there's a real opportunity here. 

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other comments

8 for Carmela's committee?

9 Okay. Hearing none -- I can't

10 believe it. You mean we can go home now? 

11 I'll just remind the Board members

12 that you need to meet down in the lobby in

13 order to leave by 6:15. And to everybody here

14 I would like to adjourn this meeting. Thank

15 you for your patience. My apologies -- sorry? 

16 Recess. There you go. See, I'm tired. No,

17 I'm not going to adjourn it. 

18 We're recessing it until tomorrow

19 morning at 8:30. And I would like to thank

20 you all very much for your tolerance of

21 sitting through without a proper break today,

22 but I think we needed to have that
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1 conversation on the record and I appreciate

2 your patience with us. Thank you. See you

3 tomorrow.

4 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

5 matter went off the record at 5:17 p.m.)

6

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388:3,8 389:13

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and/or 54:2 214:8

274:16 410:11

427:9

ANH 39:3,12,17

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animal 48:6,10

52:13 57:10,21

58:13 61:5 64:16

107:2 108:8,11

127:11 130:9

132:17 133:3

137:6 151:15

269:5

animals 54:1 58:1

153:18

Ann's 254:5

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54:13 68:8 70:2

178:11 182:10,11

277:10 283:6

303:5 374:6 382:6

384:4 400:4,17

407:17 408:10,11

410:15 417:21

annotations 182:6

388:15 400:10,15

401:3 408:14

announce 259:18

announced 181:15

announcement

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announcing 307:21

349:7

annual 63:1,19

114:2 117:12,21

176:17 263:15

264:17 429:19

anode 247:19

anolyte 247:19,21

248:12

answer 27:17 32:16

42:14 139:19

145:13 168:22

191:13 199:14

233:21 263:5

284:21 357:8

358:6,12 373:11

395:13

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answers 195:11

392:17

ant 8:4 173:7

anti-microbial

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antibiotics 88:20

140:19

anticipated 181:13

antimicrobial

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158:9 248:1

Antonio 4:8 48:1

189:11 191:9

Ants 8:3

anybody 169:17

175:22 259:8

331:13

anymore 89:15

93:20 297:7

anyone's 359:16

anytime 433:21

anyway 86:18

120:17 421:5

apart 4:20 146:1

apologies 289:17

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apology 92:8

apparently 53:4

appealed 184:16

appealing 12:21

appear 69:19

409:19 422:12

appears 38:11

342:16 377:15

381:22 410:7

414:8

applaud 315:18

applauded 377:19

Applause 9:5

235:18 257:13

260:18 268:22

269:12 273:16

339:1 344:6

apples 179:5

applicable 177:16

274:9 427:7

application 8:10

14:12,12,13 16:13

135:9 139:15

158:14,15 163:3

177:5 202:6

214:13 230:6

256:19

applications 63:15

73:1 81:22 143:11

161:7 187:1 188:7

188:13 197:1

212:6 216:7

applicator 170:20

applied 10:9

168:21 434:11

apply 76:6 405:10

433:19 436:5

applying 64:3

148:12 205:6

229:22

appointed 269:17

334:15 336:19

appreciate 4:1,22

52:6 66:16,19

69:15 150:12,22

167:18 173:12

181:13 254:17

266:18 305:22

333:19 354:14

438:1

appreciated 23:4

430:9

appreciates 180:17
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366:2 411:6 416:9

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228:5 250:2 335:2

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37:21 42:3 45:7

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146:19 182:10

191:11 228:15

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April 48:1 185:3

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159:21 223:16

224:1,3,9,20

226:2,5,7 227:1,5

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arbitrary 323:5

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area 50:2 140:11

155:5 166:6,8

167:2 212:1,7

215:6 220:10

271:6

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31:17 198:15

249:4 370:15

400:21 411:13

422:15 432:2

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argue 314:17

322:17 325:7

argument 48:5

arid 111:7 207:16

arising 361:8

Arizona 184:8

Arkansas 269:4

arms 143:21

arrangement 24:15

381:12

arrive 136:22

arrived 18:17

ARSENAULT

1:19 302:9

Artichoke 197:22

artificial 239:18,18

242:13 243:9

244:17 293:22

artistic 204:2

ASC 102:16 138:22

139:1,5 140:6,22

141:13 145:18,21

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91:14,21 95:14

96:15,19 97:2

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138:1 260:11

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Ashley 59:7 267:14

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asked 3:18 45:13

69:12 87:3 108:17

139:10 189:16

242:19 248:17

262:10 341:1,3

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165:12 202:21

233:12 238:20

355:18 409:6

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aspects 101:14,17

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aspirations 272:3,9

assess 241:8 425:21

assessment 40:9

176:19 177:12,20

422:20 425:3

429:17

assessments 209:6

426:1 428:9

asset 433:3

assigned 411:1

assist 275:11

assistance 114:19

115:6

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associated 224:20

226:2 290:3

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60:1 68:20 71:7

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112:10,11,15,17

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assume 221:16

assumed 413:2

assumption 24:22

87:10

assured 245:3

359:15 360:14

astringency 81:20

atmosphere 150:1

atomized 148:19

attaches 146:1

attack 158:12

161:22

attain 58:7

attempt 342:1

343:16

attend 75:21

attendance 278:8

attended 122:4

165:3

attending 75:14

attention 67:7

88:12 102:14

209:14 226:9

253:5 256:3 258:6

394:2

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attitude 14:20

attorney 23:9

34:15 47:20 70:21

attorneys 98:1

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audible 280:4

286:18 290:20

299:15 301:2

302:15 321:4

344:22 361:5

372:13 379:8

auditors 250:8,9

audits 116:2

August 108:17

Austin 1:12 2:6

14:4,8 95:18

96:17,20 99:4

117:4 119:11

199:21 200:22

221:10,13 273:22

274:2 278:2

279:17,20 280:1,5

280:10 281:7

283:19 286:22

287:1 288:15,19

289:16 290:5,18

291:3 294:9

296:15 298:10

299:5,7 300:4,17

301:11 302:3,13

302:16 314:12

321:10 332:6

362:9 364:3,7

365:19 366:6,10

366:12,15,22

367:5,12 368:9

370:10,20 372:7

372:18 373:3,14

373:18 374:12

377:9 379:16

380:4,22 382:8

390:21 392:1,12

394:9 396:5 397:3

397:15 398:8

400:8 402:5 403:3

404:14 405:11,16

406:7 407:5,20

410:19 411:20

412:15 413:10,16

415:3 417:8 418:6

419:14 420:11

423:6 424:11

Australia 247:3

249:8,19

Australian 246:9

247:6

authority 41:5,7

342:13

authors 85:5,19

87:3 376:11

autom 148:17

automatic 26:21

automatically

85:11 265:11

availability 69:18

76:6,10,16 135:16

166:12 231:20

307:6 340:3

415:18 422:4

available 7:8,22

38:8 43:17 44:12

46:2 68:18 69:11

71:9,14 74:6,16

133:18 135:5,5,9

140:17 156:21

166:16 175:18

218:1 225:1,3

232:11 233:19

253:22 262:21

277:15,21 289:13

296:11 303:8

315:11 374:11

382:2 406:6

407:18 409:9

410:17 418:4

420:9

Ave 91:19
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averaged 103:4

averted 319:3

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avoid 39:21 79:9

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award 259:19

awarded 115:5

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19:20 90:6 91:7

108:15 118:16

137:13 191:19

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312:11,12 320:6

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329:2,9,11 332:15

333:9,12 344:14

344:18 345:7,10

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361:22 362:1

368:17 380:20

383:13,22 387:20

388:15,17 390:8

391:7 392:10,10

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412:11 420:17

421:17 423:19

428:12 430:2

432:18

background

132:20 221:11

252:4 375:12

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backup 141:20

143:13

bacteria 192:6

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bacterial 192:6

bactericide 185:19

bacteriophage

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bacterium 375:19

bad 190:5 281:13

288:19 306:2,3

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Baden-Mayer 81:2

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badly 340:14

baits 8:4 215:15

baked 36:18 67:17

Baker 203:7

207:10,11,13

211:3,16 212:11

bakers 36:22

balance 178:7

balanced 270:9

272:17

Ballroom 1:7

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banana 120:14

banned 21:11 22:7

banning 22:1

bans 22:14

bar 127:3 159:9

271:5,10 272:2,10

barely 371:17

barked 95:14

Barley 157:1

barrier 157:22

barriers 41:2 115:9

bars 67:16

base 28:1 144:5

397:8

based 15:5 26:11

33:7 44:16 46:7

87:10,19 127:22

133:11 145:1

184:17 228:15

239:11,21 278:3

278:18 280:13

281:1 285:10

287:3 288:10

293:8 303:14

304:3 310:9 311:7

315:5,7 329:9

334:9 344:19

359:3 365:13

383:13 416:15

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bases 56:14,17

basically 53:21

55:19 56:14 129:7

216:9 260:21

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basics 24:4

basins 198:4

basis 126:12 136:4

223:1 270:5 306:4

306:6 310:2

318:16 319:14

bath 104:17

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129:22

battles 22:13

Bay 271:6

bearing 35:4

beat 357:6

beautiful 6:7 122:7

Beck 1:12 2:20

299:20 301:5

362:17 380:12

424:20 430:10

becoming 117:17

123:13 204:6

bee 8:4

beef 185:2

began 340:15

beginning 154:6

175:12 181:16

257:10 274:5

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begins 101:4

begun 294:16

behalf 8:18 75:18

99:10 140:9

207:15 210:17

388:5 402:12

Behar 3:8,13 9:11

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49:7 53:5 126:13

126:18

behaviors 48:15

belabor 358:12

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36:3 56:18 57:3

57:21 72:11 73:21

74:20 80:6 128:14

132:13 139:20

183:6 243:17

269:22 305:5,15

306:19 310:7

311:1 312:14

341:2 343:9 361:6

361:15 364:5

365:16 375:20

377:6 383:3 415:4

416:17 437:10

believes 51:13

believing 87:18

belong 128:15

benchmark 51:16

beneficial 230:16

benefit 60:4 211:13

368:4,10 434:7,13

benefits 104:19

188:17

benefitted 5:5

benign 214:4 222:2

229:13 230:15

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216:20,22 219:3

219:12 220:1,13

220:17 221:12

222:6 223:5

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222:14

Berry 4:14

best 9:4 36:14

46:13 91:4 97:11

112:8 137:4 150:4

161:12 258:16

273:6 280:21

321:18 323:18

331:3 337:2

433:19

beta 158:11

Beth 60:18

Betsy 255:9 256:15

437:3

Betsy's 256:16

better 36:5 103:7

114:20 122:12,13

158:16 194:3

202:14 238:21

282:19 294:20,20

322:9 354:10,19

386:6 429:11

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beverages 81:10

375:10,11

bewilderingly

37:21

beyond 11:3 12:12

23:9 24:16 85:2

97:14 103:6

104:11 150:1

200:19 272:4

285:17 382:19

388:10,11 406:21

419:9 422:19

biannually 205:5

biased 184:1

bicarbonate 37:2

196:14,17,20

201:3 213:2,12

214:8
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205:17 213:6

big 20:21 59:9

89:22 102:15

111:1 121:22

150:8 155:7

164:22 259:13

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298:15 331:9

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bigger 264:10,10

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bio-availability

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bio-diversity

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bio-pesticide

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bioaccumulation

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bioassays 19:4,7,22

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biocidal 192:16

biodegradable

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biodiversity 428:3

biological 11:16

12:10 15:17 70:4

71:20 77:7,19

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bioplastic 121:22

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BioSafe 185:13

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biosoluble 193:4

biotic 157:10

bird 155:3

birds 11:11 48:18

49:4,5,14 53:19

54:5 126:12 128:4

128:4,15 129:22

130:3,5 131:4

132:1,13 136:12

137:4 153:7,22

bisulfite 191:21

192:4,14

bit 4:20 66:19 96:8

96:21 117:5

134:11 141:18

147:14 173:13

186:2 221:10

270:6 281:11

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black 18:9 50:7

152:14 198:15

blame 150:2

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blanks 288:1

blends 81:15 82:1

blind 109:18

blip 284:1

block 217:17

332:19

blows 146:1

blue 157:13 159:9

199:3

blueberries 203:13

217:3 218:11

219:14,21 220:11

221:11

bluff 62:1

Blumenthal 112:2

120:8,10,18 125:3

125:12,15,18,21

board 1:3,7 2:4

5:12 8:21 17:9

25:15 29:12,19

31:1 32:2 37:22

41:6 42:20 50:14

54:10,14 55:3,7

56:2 59:1,8,21

72:7 75:7,10

83:20 86:5 87:20

92:2,15,22 93:1

105:18 107:22

112:9 113:11

126:21 127:16

129:9,17 134:19

136:7 138:15,20

141:4,10 149:11

164:22 165:4,5

167:19 169:8

171:17,17 173:19

173:21 180:21

181:10 183:5

187:1 196:1 227:3

227:5 228:8,11

232:5 233:16,17

234:19 251:8

252:2 253:15,16

260:2 262:6,10,12

262:20 264:1,3,17

266:20 267:5,9

269:19 274:7

275:12 280:3

289:9 290:1

293:18 295:13

302:5 304:13,20

305:10 306:3,13

306:14 307:10

308:21 309:10

310:12 311:1

315:19 316:21

318:1,14 319:6,11

319:19,19,20,21

320:7 321:1

326:22 327:4

328:6,12 332:17

336:4 337:15,17

341:7,13,14

342:10,14,15

343:20,21 346:7

346:13,17,17,19

347:1,4,6,10,14

350:15 352:14

355:15,17,19

356:6 357:19

359:1 367:1,5

368:10 372:19

376:9 390:7 391:1

391:20,22 397:1

400:17 401:4

408:5 415:16

437:11

board's 17:7 33:5

39:17 41:5 232:19

boards 266:11

342:12

Bock 137:14

138:12,18

body 323:20 347:1

bog 337:22

boiled 24:4

boiler 35:15,20

36:13,15 413:21

414:13,16,19

415:9,12,17

416:10 423:18

bolts 119:21

BONDERA 1:13

28:19 133:7

283:20 297:18

300:9 301:16

322:13 333:18

345:3 362:14

371:22 380:9

392:19

book 412:8,22

413:8

books 24:4

booth 259:3

Boredom 58:3

bothered 84:18

bothering 84:10

bottom 11:19 198:2

256:12 258:17

272:4

box 150:8

boxes 118:6

BPA 40:7

brain 284:1

brand 230:11

231:21 388:17

brands 99:21 272:6

bread 59:21

break 20:10 25:2

25:22 59:21 115:8

126:1 137:10

223:10 253:6

260:20 278:7

287:7 289:17

380:18 437:21

breaks 147:2,3

breeding 121:18

124:3,6,17 215:7

Brian 195:20 203:6

203:11

bridge 4:5

brief 63:19 274:13

briefly 106:3

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Brines 1:20 277:1,4

288:18,20 295:21

296:19 303:2

312:16 364:5,12

364:15 374:2

381:20 396:6

402:14 405:22

407:9 410:6

412:14 414:7

415:10 417:15

419:19

bring 17:15 105:14

113:20 126:11,15

126:16 127:2

133:9 153:19

196:9 256:2

280:15 288:6,7

295:12 312:11

319:18 331:19

332:15 341:13

343:1 346:14,15

357:3 402:11

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bringing 128:22

212:2 222:10

253:5 258:6

259:14 288:9

313:15 315:19

brings 37:4 61:1

115:14 228:18

broad 146:6,19,21

186:22 196:16

400:4,15

broadcast 214:12

broaden 233:1
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broader 40:15

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broccoli 196:6

Brock 137:19

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broilers 58:8

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broke 360:9

broken 236:4

brought 41:17

84:20 133:15

153:1 208:21

232:18 252:2

275:2 282:6

284:12 308:15,17

308:20 344:8

345:5 356:4,19

358:18 385:10,12

387:10

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158:18

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149:5,6 154:11,18

bruises 333:2

Brunnquell 120:9

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131:9 132:11,19

134:16 136:9

Brunnquell's 254:6

Bucky 79:12

buffer 6:21 11:7

buffered 162:10

buffering 163:13

225:7

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build 8:17 100:20

104:14,15,16

116:19 118:18

building 103:14

104:1 118:13

176:20 255:17,18

256:21 340:11

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buildings 340:12

builds 114:5

built 339:9

bumps 333:2

bunch 226:19

340:10 380:21

burden 85:17

burdens 116:4

179:21

bureaucrats 59:16

burgeoning 35:6

burn 160:7

burner 111:12

218:8,19 220:7

burners 111:14

197:6 200:5,15

201:2 203:16,17

204:9 207:3 210:7

218:15 221:14

burning 110:13

206:20 213:22

214:2

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business 94:20,21

95:1 99:1 109:1

123:8 184:15

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226:6 268:16

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butterflies 11:11

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buying 242:2,2,10

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buzzer 95:11

145:11 160:12

235:20 273:9

C

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CACS 2:2 424:18

Cal 71:1 195:22

calcium 155:20

213:13,14 388:22

California 128:3,6

128:10 131:17

170:19 172:6

190:1 196:1

198:17 203:12

204:7 205:14

217:5,5 218:5

222:19 271:22

320:20

California's 212:20

call 105:19 123:11

176:12 185:15

251:4 262:16

397:11

called 32:19 41:16

105:18,19 184:19

313:7

calls 9:21 15:2

18:19 330:3

368:19

camp 327:16 328:1

campaigns 240:11

Canada 271:20

candidates 35:22

cannibalism 48:4

48:22 58:3,4

canons 23:22

cans 40:14

cap 127:9,18

capable 337:18

385:13 435:21

Capacitor 221:1

capacity 12:9 157:2

163:14 255:17,18

capital 205:22

208:7

capricious 323:5

342:21

capstone 114:2

capture 429:18

captured 429:19

carbon 193:13,19

222:9 224:16

carbonate 189:9

213:14

card 249:12

cards 249:11

care 67:17 88:22

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career 62:6 270:5

careful 41:2 151:3

312:2 424:12

carefully 13:18

123:2 235:6

236:10 244:10

Carl 30:5 33:17

Carmela 1:12 2:20

301:4 424:19

434:16 435:17

Carmela's 437:8

carpet 5:21

carpeting 6:1

carrageenan 375:8

375:16 377:16

CARRIE 1:22

carried 5:17

191:21 310:8

carrots 196:5

carry 8:5 28:14

carryover 19:6

20:19 21:6

CAS 303:5 374:6

402:18 407:13

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modified 39:21

Mom's 267:22

268:6

moment 334:16,20

409:22 410:2

money 11:4 395:7,9

monitors 221:2

month 249:10

monthly 212:4

months 18:11 19:4

20:15 21:16 78:22

126:20 127:13

293:10 345:9

Moore 164:17

170:15,17,18

173:17 175:2,5

176:5

Morituri 91:19

morning 3:3,6,20

9:11 14:5,6,7

17:20 23:7 47:19

58:21 70:19 79:18

80:19 81:3 100:14

101:6 112:3

120:10,17 126:3

141:9 149:5,14

164:18 170:17
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motioner 356:21

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232:18 274:16

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motives 337:21

mouse 7:19

mouth 236:21

move 71:12 87:17

101:11 135:6

150:1 156:6

175:17 180:2

268:17 276:19

285:16 287:20

288:3 291:4

297:12 310:11

325:13 333:4

336:7 354:5,13,17

363:6 368:20

373:2 381:3,16

402:3,8 405:19

407:6 410:4

413:19 417:12

419:16 428:13

moved 74:2,3 97:13

102:6 118:21

184:12 288:5

368:12 369:8

401:14

movement 273:4

moves 152:2

156:17 371:13

moving 4:21 5:1

108:12 273:19

280:14 281:17

302:3 325:2

353:10 372:15

373:21 402:6

423:2

MRO 399:3

MROs 108:21

109:4 386:1,5,14

398:1,5 401:2

MSDSs 388:7

muddy 247:2

mulch 397:20

398:16

mulches 121:22

multiple 65:16

106:1 255:20

354:8 376:1 419:7

Murphy 33:18 34:3

34:3 38:21,22

39:1

mutagenesis

121:20

mutated 121:17

mutations 124:9

N

N 1:8

nailed 260:8

naked 153:22

name 17:20 30:6

34:9,13 39:1 43:3

47:19 61:13 66:14

70:19 81:3 107:13

112:3 120:17

138:18 149:6

176:9 181:7

185:18 195:21

203:11 207:13

223:13 231:9

236:2 261:18

name's 170:18

185:12 191:2

narrative 365:14

377:3

narrow 428:4

narrowed 400:16

narrowest 41:12

Nashville 61:15

NASS 255:12

nasty 153:21 165:9

Nate 429:21

nation's 61:2 217:6

national 1:3,7,20

25:5,6,14 26:4,5,7

26:10,10,12 27:11

27:20 28:4,7

30:21 31:1 36:19

37:17 38:13 41:1

44:10 45:1 50:16

67:14 75:20,22

78:3,15 80:7

81:18 82:16 84:13

85:11,19 86:1,3

86:16 87:8 92:11

110:10 116:7

139:8 140:7 141:1

142:17 165:13

226:8 231:21

232:7,17 234:10

235:7 240:6

241:18 248:7,16

248:18,21 249:1

250:20 251:8,14

251:19 252:5,13

252:20 253:17

262:17 264:21

265:12 267:9

269:18 274:7,20

277:9 289:8

291:16,17 292:4

292:14 293:15,20

294:4,7 295:16,19

296:4,8,10 299:10

300:19,20 302:7

303:4 304:21

307:2 308:5,9

313:1,11 315:7

316:3 317:17

341:12,18 346:3

347:1,13,18

349:17,20 350:1

352:13 357:1

359:2 363:8 366:3

366:8 374:4

379:10 381:22

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414:9 415:2 417:7

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419:21 420:5,16

423:15 429:22

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nationally 239:21

nationwide 22:1

natural 36:22 39:3

48:15,19 50:1,21

64:10 66:4 67:10

67:13,15,21 68:22

72:6,8,10 73:4,5

73:12 74:10,14,19

76:2 77:14 126:13

126:18 199:9,12

199:16,17 202:10

206:9 215:19

231:13,16 237:20

242:20,22 277:7

425:13

naturally 82:10

210:8 214:20

naturally-occurr...

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nature 158:8

248:12 298:19

415:22

navels 217:3

NCSU 19:5

nearly 21:11 43:15

45:4 194:11

necessarily 322:6

400:3 427:4 436:5

necessary 31:22

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neighbor 6:22 7:1

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Neil 216:21 223:7,8

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neither 232:16

nervous 269:15

net 193:17

networks 88:10

Neudorff 170:21

Neufeld 195:20

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never 45:5 48:5

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51:3,16 113:10

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244:15 255:10

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271:2 273:19

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291:9,12 292:8,12

293:4 294:1

302:14 306:22

314:10 317:15

321:12 323:22

327:11 335:2,21

340:22 341:14,16

344:20 354:2

357:22 360:18

367:16,19,19

368:22 370:3

372:20 388:17

391:16 394:5

397:13 401:6,6

409:11 423:10

428:19,22

newly-revised

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news 88:22 181:15

181:17 259:21

NGMO 126:6

127:19 128:8

nice 90:13 392:13

Nick 1:15 315:15

317:4 318:7,11

321:6 345:2 350:9

351:11 359:7

361:13 366:17

369:12 371:2

372:1 404:16

411:21 412:17,19

435:9,16

night 211:17

nine 362:19,22

363:3

nitrate 202:3,9

NOC 388:12

406:22 419:9

NOC's 152:14

non 61:2 132:12

non-accumulators

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non-agricultural

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non-compliances

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non-cotton 258:7

non-dairy 149:8

375:10

non-detectable

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non-GMO 61:2

109:8 133:18

166:16,19,22

non-organic 40:18

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46:12 71:13 72:12

72:13 73:13 80:12

85:20 130:3 166:3

231:15,17 232:8

240:2 258:7

non-synthetic 51:1

234:10 374:5

377:2 382:1

402:17 403:8

405:9 406:3 409:5

non-toxic 230:15

non-treated 166:17

noncompliance

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nondetectable

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nonessential 47:5

nonprofit 39:3

255:17

nonsense 103:7

nonsynthetic 72:2

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NOP 1:20,20,21

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21:20 29:12 31:18

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79:2,7 82:19 85:4

86:14 99:5 108:18

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114:4 115:21

116:7 128:17

139:16 151:15

167:19 170:22

177:8 179:13

180:18 227:16

230:10 233:3

239:22 250:7

255:10,13 276:3

277:1,21 292:2,7

293:2,6 295:13

296:12 311:3

320:1 322:21

323:13,22 325:9

335:2 336:22

337:19 338:3

342:16 399:3

417:14 425:5,16

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NOP's 48:7 77:10

178:6 289:14

374:11 402:13

nop.guidance@a...

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normal 180:8

normally 84:2 89:3

northeast 156:13

Northeastern

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northern 130:10

northwest 30:8

165:20 166:6

nos 300:13 302:2

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NOSB 2:4 9:17

21:20 25:18 26:15

26:17,21,22 27:10

28:5 29:3 31:3

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41:21 42:4,12

51:5,19 52:12

67:7 69:21 75:15

78:14,19 82:17

86:13 87:11,15

90:6 99:5 100:16

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notifying 309:22

noting 376:16

notion 208:3,15

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nourishing 271:11

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NRCS 177:20

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NSF 187:8

number 58:10

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239:21

numerous 9:21

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375:3

nurtured 13:18

nutrient 162:1

193:6 213:20

nutrient-dense

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nutrients 111:10

193:8 218:4

nutrition 131:15

154:5 161:15,15

162:2

nutritional 375:10

nutritionist 131:12

131:13

nuts 119:21 217:8

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oak 6:8

oasis 11:5 15:16

oat 271:19

obey 431:19

object 372:15

389:22 390:3

objected 329:4

objection 372:22

objectionable 52:4

objective 255:3

objectives 254:21

272:6

obligation 273:1

observation 118:1

134:8 298:2

359:10,18 369:14

369:19 371:16

377:13 378:5

427:17

observations 133:9

observe 64:3

observed 216:5

obsolete 79:14

obstructed 337:12

obtain 41:14 48:21

166:17 192:7

obtained 306:22

317:15 341:16

obvious 173:1

279:5 326:12

370:2

obviously 73:18

118:3 173:19

283:11 367:17

397:9

OCA 88:6

occasions 233:21

294:19

occur 192:10

215:11 305:3

346:3 386:14

389:14 396:10,14

432:3

occurred 10:5 12:4

12:18 124:6

182:19 352:19

occurring 11:1

210:8 214:20

396:8,15

occurs 17:4 82:9

123:17 215:18

OCI's 30:17,21

31:8 33:5

OCIA 259:4

octadecylamine

2:15 35:16 414:6

414:18 415:9

October 1:5 184:9

184:10 348:12,20

358:1

odd 328:15

odor 143:8

OFBA 171:12

offer 92:8,10 239:3

offered 79:17

offering 114:18

offers 76:21

office 1:22 150:8

official 275:12

OFPA 23:18 26:1

32:16 37:8 41:4

45:20 51:3 85:4,9

86:2,14,19 87:3

90:2 227:20 228:2

228:6,15 233:4

234:4 305:13

307:15 315:9

327:9 343:19

347:3 349:6,12

357:13 358:10,21

359:20

OFPA's 51:7

oh 3:8 33:16,21,22

80:5 120:3 147:19

160:11 207:11

216:14 226:18

235:5 321:6

351:10 367:4

371:8,21 390:13

424:14 430:4

oils 68:9 277:11

okay 3:8 9:11 30:3

33:18 55:10 70:12

83:11 95:12 96:19

112:1 125:17

145:16 147:16

148:14 155:12

162:2,18 163:5

173:18 175:4

181:3 182:13

190:14 194:3,10

195:4 216:16,16

221:8 235:21

242:15 257:21

259:20 263:13,20

264:12 266:22

269:1 282:21

284:20 289:19

291:7 299:6 302:3

302:16 303:22

304:19 311:8,11

314:13 326:6

327:1 328:4,17

343:14 345:1,16

359:6 360:15

363:21 366:11

367:10 369:22

372:21 373:18,21

378:18 380:22

391:18 396:4,5

399:21 402:5

403:4 406:10

413:10,20 416:19

424:13,15 437:9

Okragate 255:22

old 18:7 20:11 45:4

79:14 314:10

older 420:17

oldest 112:7

omnivorous 50:2

OMRI 409:3

415:12

once 21:13 52:16

142:19 159:16

193:1 228:2

one-time 264:11

ones 35:9 260:7

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330:15 337:5

351:2 353:20

354:2,16 372:19

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opposing 84:15

opposite 50:22

127:1

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optimistic 91:11

optimum 20:9

204:22

option 27:14,14

179:4 222:6

230:12

optional 25:10

106:15

options 101:19,20

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123:8 176:12,13

176:21 177:11

178:9 179:9

180:17

oral 191:8 196:10

229:18 278:4

287:17 288:11

374:18 375:13

406:13 408:20

orchard 118:10

orchards 118:14

order 7:16 51:20

66:3 85:18 110:9

251:22 293:13

303:11,13,16,21

304:3,7,14 310:15

311:17 313:15

322:4 329:5

344:10,11,12

361:10 363:10,11

363:12,16,20

373:5 395:2

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Oregon 107:14

240:11

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5:9,9 6:1 9:12,13

9:17,21 10:2,10

10:12,16,18 11:1

11:4,8,13,13,18

11:19 12:2,15,20

12:22 13:6,9,12

13:14,20 14:20

15:8,15 16:3,6,12

16:19 21:4,12,19

23:11,13 25:14

30:9,16,21 31:1,5

31:15 32:9 33:6

34:19 35:4,5,21

38:6 39:8,10,13

39:16 40:2,3,8,18

41:11,14,15,19

42:3,6,15 43:9,11

43:22 44:13,14

45:21 46:2,21

49:10,15,20 50:8

50:9,10,12,12

51:20,22 52:2,4

53:8,19 59:3,12

59:22 60:4,9,15

60:19 61:6,19,20

62:14,17,17,19

64:8 66:5 67:10

67:16,16,21 69:1

71:6,8,10,14

72:14,20,21 73:4

73:7,9,11,12,16

73:16 74:16 75:12

75:13 76:7,10,14

76:17 77:15 78:6

78:7,7,9,10,11,12

78:15,16 80:10,13

81:5,7,9,12 82:12

82:14,20 83:19,21

84:12,13,19 85:21

86:9,10 87:21,22

88:17 90:3,5,9,16

92:11,18,19 93:2

93:20 94:1,13,22

95:8,22 96:10

97:1,6,8 98:1,14

98:15,15 101:3,9

101:15 102:20

103:6,7,11 104:13

104:20,20 105:6

107:15 108:8

109:19 112:6,13

112:16,19 113:5,8

113:8,17 114:7,15

114:17,21 115:7

115:18 116:7,17

116:22 117:9

118:13 120:20

121:3,4,8,9 122:5

122:10,18 123:1,5

123:16,19 124:8

125:8 128:3,9,15

130:5 132:1,4,13

134:17,20 135:13

135:21 136:16

139:6 140:2,5,10

141:2,14 144:8

149:7,11 150:7

151:7 155:4

161:11 164:19

165:15,21 166:1,7

166:11,14 167:4,6

167:9,22 168:6,14

172:6,11 173:5,7

175:16,19 176:11

176:14,22 177:3

178:16,22 179:11

180:7,9,19 181:14

183:21 184:7,20

185:20 187:11

189:16 193:19

196:1 197:19

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267:9,22 268:10

269:6,17,18,19,21

270:1,4,7,11,12

271:1,3,4,6,18,19

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295:3 307:7,16

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352:14 359:3

360:21 364:21

377:5,18 388:2

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outcomes 95:3

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overnight 339:13

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oversight 83:20

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page 24:18

pages 103:19

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palatable 154:17

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Panel 36:7 277:14

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PARTICIPANT

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pathology 18:1

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Pay 102:13

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PCA 212:18
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

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PDS 335:1

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pellet's 206:18

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penalty 10:21

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60:1 84:17 88:22

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178:15,20 179:2

185:14 249:18

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110:18,21 126:11

131:5,22 157:4

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224:11,12 225:9

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192:5 238:16

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274:15 275:2

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289:14 314:13

367:18 368:16

383:20 408:3

periodic 239:5

periods 275:8

Permitted 386:15

peroxide 187:5

peroxyacetic

186:20 187:4,7

188:6

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185:15

peroxyhydrate

189:10

perpetual 196:22

perpetually 264:13

perpetuate 42:13

persistence 22:11

persistent 19:18

21:10,22 22:15

142:6

person 3:19 15:3

25:1 33:18 43:1

94:19 97:4 107:9

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personal 7:6 67:17

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personnel 178:5

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perspective 31:8

32:13 33:6 55:3

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323:19 382:10

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12:14,17 16:1,20

16:22 175:1

228:18 229:6,20

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168:19 229:7

230:9 406:22

419:9 422:19

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petition 75:19

78:20 84:6,15

88:16 104:8 139:5

140:9 175:8 191:7

227:18 228:3

232:5 238:21,22

248:17,19 250:18

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277:16 285:10

286:5,8 287:11

288:22 289:3,4,6

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400:13,18 401:21

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286:10 296:21

374:8 389:10

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45:13 233:18

237:6 238:12

287:16 296:21

297:7 364:18

petitioners 140:14

petitions 72:9

79:10 84:3 140:22

252:19 296:11

346:12 356:22

pH 110:19,22

162:12,19,21

163:4 191:22

193:12 197:12,13

204:22 205:1,6,11

205:16 213:6,12

214:8,15 219:15

222:20 224:17

225:10 248:9

phase 74:11 275:18

294:11 423:11

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phenolic 158:8

Phenols 158:9

philosophical

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philosophically

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phosphate 171:3

171:11 172:1,11

173:4,14 175:18

212:17 215:4,18

phosphate-based

215:15

phosphates 418:5

phosphoric 37:6

photographs

128:22

photos 153:19

154:13

physical 70:5 71:21

77:8,20

physically 119:17

200:3 221:22

pick 147:22

picked 74:8

picking 4:19

picture 102:15

187:12 264:19

331:10

pictures 133:2

209:15,16

piece 118:21

144:15 259:13

364:13 368:22

393:17 435:2

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Pierce's 149:21

254:1

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pioneered 194:19

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111:14 118:12

119:15 123:7

139:13 146:8,17

179:20 213:15

257:9 262:18

263:16 264:20

290:16 291:10
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105:14 117:9

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398:18,22 427:10

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planet's 208:9

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planning 340:7,9

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124:5,17 155:13

155:15,22 156:19

157:10 159:6,10

159:21 160:5

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164:4 168:13

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225:1 227:22

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play 131:10 346:11

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playing 335:11

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please 3:20 46:19

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80:1 94:14 95:7

106:4 108:13

128:17 132:18

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219:3 261:9 284:9

374:15 381:19

405:21 417:14

418:8 420:13

pleased 116:6

150:16 151:15

152:17

pleasure 271:3

plentiful 46:1

plenty 422:21

plethora 132:2

plowed 431:15

plowing 29:20

plus 384:12

podium 231:11

267:12 366:21

point 84:9 90:9

91:5 95:20 105:1

105:3 115:14

117:11,21 130:8

134:4,6,7 135:13

135:22 136:22

168:3 171:20

174:4 175:22

186:1 188:5 190:5

197:16 198:18

205:8 206:8

258:19 278:13

279:21 280:20

289:19 303:11,13

303:13,15,21

304:3,12 310:7,15

312:21 313:15

314:14,17 317:7

319:1 320:13

329:5 336:10

344:10,12 353:2

353:16 356:18

357:9 358:13

361:9 363:10,11

363:12,15,20

370:20 373:5

374:13 379:16

381:10 390:4

396:20 401:22

405:15,20 412:1

412:13,18 431:21

434:14

pointed 79:13

202:18 318:7

334:7 435:20

pointing 196:11

points 102:22

120:4 194:1

224:19 254:4

330:21 342:3

367:15 381:7,8

382:18 383:22

416:13

poison 229:8

policies 306:13

339:13 341:4

policy 17:21 23:8

38:17 47:10 50:19

51:3 66:8 85:6,8

85:16 86:2 87:4

89:5 107:14

181:22 255:2

278:5 280:22

287:4 290:15,16

291:9 304:8,16

305:6,11 306:5,7

306:18 309:19

318:5 335:2

340:22 351:19

352:14 353:18

367:19 386:21

393:2

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political 83:18

268:15 338:1

politicians 338:21

politics 152:7

337:14 338:20

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Poly 71:1

polymerizes 156:20

polymers 156:3

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pools 149:8

poor 47:3 214:21

popular 208:3

popularized 34:20

population 192:20

193:15 216:6

populations 192:13

pore 193:9

porosity 208:18

porous 213:17

portion 136:19,21

228:2

Portland 17:1

position 269:10

272:22 314:3

319:12 354:15

409:11 424:4

positions 339:12

378:22

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181:19 182:3

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154:15 200:1

399:9 404:2

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191:13 282:2

355:7 377:6

possibly 210:20

288:5 337:20

399:13

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276:8 277:20

289:13 307:18

314:19 415:1

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posting 381:6

382:13 383:14

384:9 389:4,18

390:12 391:14,20

391:21 392:7,15

393:10 402:4

408:2

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postpone 78:21

posturing 152:8

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potassium 155:15

155:21 159:22

160:9,19 161:3,6

162:21,22 164:11

223:16 224:1,3,9

224:13,20 226:3,5

226:8 227:1,5,10

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228:13,16 229:2

229:10,14 230:1,4

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88:1 90:17 91:4

142:1 143:3 188:8

245:10 254:14

332:3 422:22

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132:1 183:9

236:12 293:14

332:20 346:2

356:12

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126:5 131:3,13

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196:22
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pounds 93:17

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power 83:22 86:21

339:12,16

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PQ 163:12 223:14

223:22 226:22

227:21 230:13

practical 180:3,6

200:7 201:1

211:22 215:2

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315:11 417:1

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practices 11:13

63:9,13 64:10

169:13,15 176:20

177:2 179:22

180:11 198:19

214:19 416:18,20

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426:10 428:4

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practitioners 39:5

pre 142:12

pre-meeting 260:3

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precariously 293:1

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precipitates 213:13

precursor 192:6

predicament

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preference 311:5

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preferred 179:4

preharvest 230:5

preliminary 276:5

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309:4 348:13,17

421:15 423:11

424:5

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248:17 303:22

prepared 136:20

prescribed 214:7

prescriptive 430:17

430:21

presence 99:7

257:4,4,8,9

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34:6 38:15,18

43:7 47:8,10

61:18 66:6,9

121:1 133:12

142:7,15 143:14

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303:17 341:15

376:22 381:17

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123:10 126:2

133:8,16 134:6

141:15 143:1

183:1 274:6

295:11 306:1

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382:11 400:20

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424:7 430:5,6

presentations

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227:9 233:6 285:8

341:5 367:2

389:16 390:11

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presenting 19:2

134:4 176:10

presently 344:16

presents 169:6

preservative

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preservatives

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preserved 234:22

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President 126:9

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199:2 202:15

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332:18 409:16

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277:14,17 297:5

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290:4 408:13

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prices 137:7,8

primarily 144:9

146:12,14 186:14

203:12 278:18,22

404:10 405:3

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180:12 191:17

240:3 375:4

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principals 236:11

237:13

principles 78:12

80:10

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351:16

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395:9

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prizes 138:9

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probabilities

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86:10 159:14

163:4 169:18

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221:16 281:16

314:4 334:2 368:5

431:19 433:7

problem 7:14

10:22 13:3 19:8

98:19 110:17

111:1,2 131:4

132:8 154:19

162:16 169:7

170:3 177:22

194:9 196:16

207:20 210:21

213:8 214:8

218:13 318:12

390:16 394:16

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problems 148:20

179:17 217:9

241:4 303:14

304:3 319:4 320:2

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procedural 307:9

310:16 313:20

318:10 319:4

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procedurally

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214:4 263:2

280:21,22 289:17

314:10,15 315:14

316:9,14 317:9

319:13 320:2,3

329:4 336:17

337:1 339:19,20

344:20 352:4

354:2 359:5

390:18

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181:22 278:5

279:18 287:5

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311:2,14 318:21

319:9 337:18

338:2,4 339:9

341:14 342:9,10

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386:18

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312:2,8 333:14

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68:11 76:11 83:4

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103:13 104:3,8

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118:4 123:1 161:4

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177:13 180:16

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192:5 196:12

199:13 223:17

227:18 234:4

235:17 243:5

244:3 250:18
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replacing 36:12

78:9,9

replicated 81:17

report 2:19 183:20

223:22 225:15,18

277:13,14 289:10

303:8 374:10

402:21 403:1

406:5 407:2,18

410:16 414:22

418:3 420:7,8

424:19 430:8,13

reported 209:8

reporting 405:13

reports 130:20

223:19 276:7

277:18 296:12

382:2

represent 31:1

195:22 207:11,14

217:2 273:7

representative

106:6 131:2

231:12 239:22

262:1 360:7

representatives

233:19 272:17

representing 86:11

140:10 269:7

325:4

represents 104:13

210:10 309:12

350:17 377:17

request 9:16 46:6

140:21 226:7

277:12 286:7

289:3 307:22

361:9 372:2,8

382:16 427:8

428:8 429:2 435:4

requested 253:8

287:12 394:5

409:21

requests 46:3 276:6

277:7 286:6 289:6

348:5

require 54:14

65:20 92:16

121:15 214:17

219:14 290:17

310:20 347:2,3,4

400:17 408:12

required 65:11,14

85:17 86:2 118:7

167:3 183:14

212:3 275:13,18

276:1 304:7,11

305:12 310:9

394:19

requirement

161:22 291:20

426:19

requirements 26:9

179:16 231:20

247:4 251:19

323:15 428:19

requires 292:18

341:22 347:13

395:3 425:11

requiring 118:21

rescue 121:20

124:9

research 40:10,12

49:11 50:3 56:6

57:17 61:14 104:2

109:22 110:4

167:17,20 169:20

180:14 241:18,22

246:22 254:21

255:4 256:18

257:6,12 265:2

researchers 49:10

111:12

reservations

375:18

residue 142:1

229:13

residues 45:10

139:13 142:2,4

resistance 157:17

157:18,19,20

159:14 161:12

186:18

resistant 157:14,15

resolution 203:3

resolve 178:2

resolved 400:22

resource 66:4

117:1

resources 17:2

62:18 64:10

114:20 235:10

394:16,18 425:13

432:12

respect 138:7 260:1

260:13 354:15

respectfully 140:20

226:7 316:17

respective 293:18

respectively 171:18

respects 400:16

respond 145:8

257:22 285:22

376:18 401:5

response 159:18

191:15 192:11

193:21 194:3

280:4 286:18

289:2 290:20

299:15 301:2

302:15 321:4

344:22 361:5

372:13 379:8

responsibilities

336:20,21 337:3,9

responsibility

238:12

responsible 21:14

39:10 42:16 92:13

348:8

rest 22:10 64:6

91:18 92:2 310:22

343:22 359:14

360:14

restate 173:1

restore 83:22

191:18 268:7

restrict 237:18

restricted 22:8

189:14,20 190:3

190:11 210:15

229:21

restrictions 111:8

129:2 190:9

236:17 436:5

result 43:19 69:10

154:5 192:4,19

193:8 228:13

resulted 292:10

resulting 193:17

results 135:20

208:8 210:3

292:13

resumed 137:17

261:5

retail 31:16 211:19

retailer 267:19

retailers 60:3

250:12

retain 44:22 411:6

411:9

retained 411:18

retired 34:14

246:20

return 167:11

311:4,12 319:16

returned 304:15

returning 253:16

REUBEN 1:17

reuse 182:8

reversal 85:15

reverse 87:1

review 25:19,21

26:16 27:3,6,10

27:21 28:12 36:6

36:8 37:18 38:2

45:3,5 46:4,5,17

47:4,6 54:14 55:9

72:9 86:16 87:20

102:7 107:21
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revision 71:17

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revisions 293:7

revisit 183:9

revoke 29:12

rewarding 8:22

rewrite 28:15

235:4 339:14

rewriting 306:6

rhizosphere 217:22

Rhode 22:6

RICCI 1:22

rice 107:11 112:2,3

112:4 117:22

120:3 156:19

158:17,19 164:4

186:15 189:16

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Richard 212:14

216:20

Richardson 1:8,10

3:3,10,14,17 9:6

14:1 15:20 17:17

23:2 28:16 29:22

30:2 32:22 33:11

33:15 34:4,11

38:20 42:19 47:12

47:15 52:20,22

54:7 57:6 58:15

58:18 61:9 66:10

70:10,13,16 72:16

74:22 75:3 79:22

80:4,17,22 82:22

83:12,15 88:3

91:8 95:10,16

99:2 100:8,11

105:4,9 107:6,9

111:22 117:2

120:7 125:1,10,22

128:19 130:22

133:6 136:5 137:9

137:18 138:11

141:5 145:14

147:6 148:21

149:2 154:7 155:8

160:11 162:4

164:14 169:2

170:11,14 173:9

176:3,6 181:1,4

185:7 188:21

189:1,7 190:18,21

195:2,15,18

199:19 200:21

201:14 203:5

207:6 211:2 212:9

212:12 216:14,19

219:2,4 221:9

223:3,6 226:10,13

226:18 230:18

231:2 235:13,19

240:14,21 245:21

246:2 250:22

253:4 257:16,21

259:16 260:19

261:6 266:3,6,15

267:2 273:17

279:14,19,22

282:11,14,18

284:22 286:11,16

286:19 288:13,16

290:21 291:7

297:11 298:5,11

298:21 299:6,11

299:16 300:10,14

300:21 301:3,19

303:15,20 310:14

311:6,9,16 312:7

313:13 315:15

317:1 320:4 321:1

321:5 322:11

325:20 327:5

328:22 329:15,21

332:5 333:17

335:17 336:11

339:2 343:12

344:4,7 345:1

350:9 351:4,6,10

352:20 354:20

357:5 358:14

359:6 361:3,6,21

362:18 363:1,5,14

363:18 364:1

365:22 369:12,20

371:7,20 372:9,14

372:21 373:9

377:11 378:6,19

379:6,9,20 380:14

380:17 424:9,13

430:7 431:13

433:5 435:8 437:7

richness 204:10

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211:16 231:2,4

232:20 233:12

235:20 241:14

242:2 244:4 253:9

253:11 261:6

277:4 281:17

287:2 295:21

305:1 320:3 321:5

322:6,6 323:2,20

324:5 325:15

328:9 329:16

334:17 361:21

367:10 373:3,21

379:5 380:15

391:21 392:5,8

401:18 412:8,11

424:14,20

rightfully 99:21

rights 12:15

rigorous 56:10

113:16 244:2

rinse 178:18

410:11

riparian 11:7

rise 41:16 303:10

338:11

risk 175:16 209:5

225:13,17 229:17

332:2

risks 403:14

road 174:4

Rob 185:12

Robert 181:6 185:9

Robert's 304:7

Robin 43:2,4

robust 11:16 43:19

95:22 335:22

Rodale 34:20

Rodenticide 228:21

role 78:16 159:14

159:20 175:15

262:3 346:10,11

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Sacramento 186:16

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safer 36:3,10 222:2

safety 35:11 44:1

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111:13 178:13

187:12,14 188:3

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sake 423:8

sales 21:8 94:3

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salmonella 127:21

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salt 142:21 200:3

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salts 111:6 193:11

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salutant 91:20

sample 208:22,22

samples 82:4

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San 4:7 48:1

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sand 155:18 224:15

225:5

sanitation 102:12

sanitized 250:3

sanitizer 178:19

187:3 188:4 248:1

410:13

sanitizers 178:22

SAPP 36:17 37:6

418:10,12

sat 332:8

satiate 49:4

saw 122:6,7 318:17

331:14 357:14

369:5

saying 74:13 87:16

98:4 130:16 238:7

263:7 309:17

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355:16 357:21

360:8 412:9

436:12

says 105:18 137:20

166:11 184:4

189:13 203:22

253:14 257:2

307:11 318:6

339:20 380:18

384:5

scale 135:21 207:19

211:5,12,14

scales 211:6

scan 38:7

scared 153:20

scary 98:19

scavenger 192:15

schedule 276:15

scheduled 427:20

school 71:2 340:8

science 132:22

268:15 343:2,5,17

401:6

scientific 38:17

47:10 66:8 265:1

scientist 70:20 95:5

240:8

scientists 125:7

241:18

scope 38:1 420:6

421:6 428:6

434:17 435:3,7

score 133:4 328:3

Scotland 246:15,15

Scott 107:11 112:1

112:4 117:4

scratch 48:14

126:14 130:1

270:10

scratching 48:20

screen 154:1

scrubbing 195:14

scrutiny 41:2 355:7

SE 128:5 151:10

sea 11:5

seal 9:3 60:16

244:16

sealant 6:4,9

search 370:2

422:14

season 130:12

190:4,5 206:19

217:3 432:11

seasoning 81:14

82:1

seasons 65:5,7

seat 267:19 367:10

seats 3:5 269:18

seaweed 215:1

sec 435:9

second 3:10 49:8

63:1 75:21 79:21

80:2,5 107:21

127:19 128:1

142:16 143:2

189:2,3 205:8

225:4 243:7

248:14 275:1

287:2 294:11

295:17 297:11

300:14 302:6

307:21 310:20

311:17,19,20,22

312:5 316:4,5,19

318:20 379:19

383:20 384:9

387:20 389:4

391:20,21 393:10

secondary 177:21

seconded 299:17

300:15 302:11,18

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359:9 361:13

seconder 356:21

secondly 147:1

414:15

seconds 210:8

secretary 1:11

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105:1 115:16

173:6 292:2 346:1

347:15

section 25:16,22

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239:1 277:8 289:7

296:4,9 303:3

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381:22 402:16

405:5,10 406:3

407:11 410:8

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414:8 417:17

419:21

sections 26:2 62:20

139:7 268:9 306:8

sector 31:16 76:18

113:5 178:21

179:3

see 4:16,18 9:1 12:3

35:2 53:5 63:22

64:7 65:6 66:12

85:20 89:9 102:6

108:5 113:14

114:11,15 115:18

118:11,14,15,17

123:13 129:18

135:18 151:18

153:2,14 155:17

156:11 158:5,15

159:3 163:6,11

175:2 199:1

209:20 210:3

211:9 223:7

230:19 239:9

241:2 254:16

255:3 259:8

264:12 265:19

285:4,5 286:8

292:22 294:16

299:2 311:1
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sense 41:12 68:2

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sensitive 20:17

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sentence 145:15

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sentiment 317:22

318:4 423:13

separate 131:13

249:4 294:19

385:6

separately 247:20

249:3 297:13

298:20 396:12

September 29:9

183:7 289:2 292:7

304:9 306:15

311:15 314:1

323:1 339:7

345:17 346:21

347:9 348:1 350:8

350:13,18 352:3

sequence 156:5

sequester 193:19

seriously 66:3

357:14 360:20

364:14 407:3

serv 113:19

serve 62:7 112:9

116:5,18 134:16

134:19 135:1

174:12

served 232:1

261:22

serves 328:10

service 5:19 9:14

13:20 59:1,3

82:18 92:1 141:3

165:6 167:17

181:11,13 201:16

201:19 226:22

273:13 348:2

Services 253:13

servicing 212:1

sesbania 197:18

session 92:9 274:4

306:17

set 16:15 127:3,6

242:20 243:7

323:9 372:10,16

sets 11:20 242:5

306:3

setting 35:1 268:3

settings 135:19

seven 20:11 172:4

205:2 348:11

severe 63:22 215:8

severely 246:9

shake 172:17

236:20

shaking 144:21

Shamrock 184:7

share 8:7 31:15

41:7 83:3 113:1

238:5 432:4

shared 256:21

shares 113:9

sharing 271:16

she'll 176:7 212:13

Shea 47:17 58:19

58:21

shed 420:22

sheep 62:1

sheer 96:22

sheets 388:5,7

391:10,15

shelf 93:21,22

shells 122:7

shelves 43:17

shenanigans 354:9

shepherd 108:14

sherry 2:10 44:7,10

46:20 240:6 275:4

295:17 296:7

297:16 298:7

299:1,9 302:18

367:21

shifted 118:1

shifting 119:14

377:15

shirt 256:2,8 257:1

257:1,17 258:8

259:18

shoes 59:9 273:14

shoot 235:5

short 57:2 120:12

142:20 149:19

260:2

shortage 69:11

shortened 80:8,11

shout 433:2

shout-out 67:2

show 20:7 118:22

129:7 130:2,3,4

131:4 133:2,2

143:17 158:2

164:6 188:17

209:16 259:1

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showed 332:12

showing 144:1

154:13 156:1

158:13

shown 156:22

157:6 159:22

164:2 186:13

shows 159:9 187:22

198:20 300:12

370:3 378:2,3

shrubs 11:9

shut 172:10

shy 155:6

Si 155:17

side 7:4 108:10

188:6 231:11

241:2 418:19

sides 153:14 369:8

436:10

sign 319:22

sign-off 308:22

signatures 84:5

88:15 140:9

signed 84:15

343:20

significant 49:16

56:20 71:7 89:10

121:8 128:17

135:16 202:17

290:6

significantly 54:2

422:3

silent 21:9

silica 158:22 159:4

224:8,11,14,21

225:2,4 229:14

silicate 155:16,18

159:22 160:9,19

161:3,6 162:22

164:12 223:16

224:1,3,9,21

225:2 226:3,5,8

227:1,5,10,13,15

228:5,13,16 229:2

229:11 230:1,4,7

230:11

silicates 155:19

silicic 155:21

156:15

silicon 155:14,17

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situation 58:3,4

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situations 151:5

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232:9

six 58:9 86:5

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168:17 184:16

220:18 244:18

326:11 327:17,17

345:9 362:19

363:3

six-inch 204:3

six-year 18:8

size 80:7 96:22

110:17 158:4

206:17

skin 206:7

sky 150:18

slant 6:10

slide 312:22

slight 144:12

slightly 154:10

381:12

slip 119:6

slow 81:15 206:20

243:5 250:1

301:22,22 371:3

slower 53:20 54:6

302:1

slug 215:15 216:6

slugs 215:5

smacks 89:6

small 13:1 14:21

26:3 86:9 122:4

166:14,20 210:13

212:6 255:17

384:4

smaller 208:5

416:8

smallest 211:12,14

smell 147:15

smiling 411:1

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smoothly 81:16

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142:3,12 143:5

144:6,7,9,10

146:5 185:14,16

185:17 186:10

189:9 202:2,8

213:14 248:3,6,10

248:15 249:1

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2000 199:10 261:22

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416:16 418:4

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291:18 407:19

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2003 223:19 382:3

402:22 406:6

2004 262:7,10

265:8 374:8

2005 196:3 262:1

2006 36:19 37:17

232:2 382:6

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415:2 418:3 420:5

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2007 223:20 227:21

296:3,7 303:7

2008 22:8 184:10

232:3,3 364:17

376:9,20

2010 185:3 196:3

230:11 296:2,8

303:8 374:9

2011 22:9 103:3

151:16 184:10,11

402:21

2012 36:5 109:6

171:16 172:4

2013 12:13 29:9

77:11 116:8

176:17 183:7

277:6,13 289:2

292:7,18 304:9

311:15 314:2

345:17 346:21

347:9 348:1 350:8

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165:22 184:14

189:13 223:21

225:15,18 247:13

254:21 275:19

289:4 306:17

348:12,20 382:4

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275:22 291:4

294:10 295:10

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313:4,8 322:3

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205.605(a) 374:4

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205.605(b) 277:8

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289:7 296:4

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21 224:10

21st 289:4

22 75:15 281:13

24 195:6,10 230:4

25 143:12 149:16

225:8

25th 425:6

265 67:20

267 2:4

27 126:9 132:20

270 71:22

270a 77:21

274 2:6

29 1:5

296 2:10

3

3 2:3 171:18,18

383:3

30 30:17 196:7

203:8 210:8

300 196:22

302 2:10

33 67:19

35 165:19 319:6

350 196:16

350,000 39:6

366 2:11

37 244:17

378 2:12

3rd 275:19 397:2

4

4 176:1 216:2

307:11

4(b) 225:22

4.6 157:4

4:30 59:16

40 93:17 132:22

402 2:13

405 2:13

407 2:14

410 2:14

414 2:15

416 225:20

417 2:16

419 2:16

424 2:20

425 272:11

43 75:12

46 269:4

4th 1:8 277:6

4XLA 142:12

5

5 171:18 219:14

307:20

5.4 219:15

5:17 438:5

50 112:11 129:21

208:5 212:8 217:7

50/50 144:21

500 79:16 168:20

196:22

581 225:16

6

6 308:2

6.9 157:4

6:15 437:13

60 110:18 194:11

208:9 246:17

256:22 257:10

60's 198:22

605 69:10,22 72:8

76:5 78:18

605(a) 233:11

605(b) 71:12

232:15 279:12

286:6

605a 81:9

605b 74:2,4

606 70:1 71:12 72:5

73:14 74:3 76:5

78:18 233:2 279:3

279:11 286:7

6158(m)(6) 315:9

646365-11-3

407:14

6517 26:3

6518 26:22

6th 289:2

7

7 110:19,22 281:10

315:9,12

7.2 217:12

7.5 217:13

7.8 217:12

70 110:18 172:19

208:4

71010-52-1 374:6

72 253:14 272:12

73 16:11

7440-44-0 407:14

7722-88-5 420:2

7758-16-9 417:20

79-21-0 410:11
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Page 500

8

8:05 182:16

8:30 3:13 437:19

8:33 1:8 3:2

80 131:3,22 165:20

217:17 248:3

85 67:21

87 140:8

8th 358:1

9
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

501

National Organic Standards Board

USDA

10-29-14

Louisville, KY
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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 + + + + +

 NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD MEETING

 + + + + +

 THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2014

 + + + + +

 The National Organic Standards

Board met in Grand Ballroom B, Galt House

Hotel, 140 N. 4th Street, Louisville,

Kentucky, at 8:35 a.m., Jean Richardson,

Chairperson, presiding.

PRESENT:

JEAN RICHARDSON, Chairperson

JOHN FOSTER, Vice Chairperson

MAC STONE, Secretary

HAROLD AUSTIN

CARMELA BECK

COLEHOUR BONDERA

JOE DICKSON

TRACY FAVRE

JAY FELDMAN

WENDY FULWIDER

NICK MARAVELL

ZEA SONNABEND

JENNIFER TAYLOR

FRANCIS THICKE

C. REUBEN WALKER

STAFF

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee

 Specialist

LISA BRINES, NOP National List Manager

EMILY BROWN ROSEN, AMS NOP Specialist,

Standards Division

MILES MCEVOY, AMS NOP Deputy Administrator

CARRIE RICCI, Office of General Counsel
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 A G E N D A

Livestock Subcommittee (LS). . . . . . . . . . 4

Tracy Favre, Chairperson

Present Subcommittee proposals and discussion

documents. Summarize with written comments

Topics:

 Proposal: Vaccines from Excluded

 Methods (GMO Vaccines) . . . . . . . . . .

 Verbal Report: Aquaculture Review

 History. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Crops Subcommittee (CS). . . . . . . . . . . .47

Zea Sonnabend, Chairperson

Present Subcommittee proposals and discussion

documents. Summarize with written comments

Topics:

 Verbal Update: Inerts. . . . . . . . . .47

 Discussion Document: Contamination

 Issues in Farm Inputs Literature

 Review . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .66

 2015 Sunset Review/Proposals

 Sulfurous Acid. . . . . . . . . . . .79

 Sodium Carbonate Peroxyhydrate. . . 115

 Aqueous Potassium Silicate. . . . . 120

 2016 Sunset Summaries

 Ferric Phosphate. . . . . . . . . . 127

 Hydrogen Chloride . . . . . . . . . 131

Deferred Items: Handling Subcommittee --

Tragacanth Gum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 136

NOSB Officer Elections . . . . . . . . . . . 144

Subcommittee Workplans . . . . . . . . . . . 148

Subommittee Assignments. . . . . . . . . . . 167

Presentation of Plaques for Outgoing 

Members. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 173

Other Business . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 209
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 8:34 a.m.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well to start

4 off this morning, John Foster, as Vice Chair,

5 is going to give us a few words of

6 inspiration, or something.

7 (Laughter.)

8 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Jean, when you

9 said, was I ready, I didn't know if you meant

10 ready, like ready-ready. All right. So this

11 is one of my favorite poems from one of my

12 favorite authors, and there's a few nice key

13 words in it that I think will resonate with

14 everyone in the room. This is D.H. Lawrence,

15 for those of you who are again keeping track.

16 The magnificent here and now of

17 life in the flesh is ours and ours alone, and

18 ours only for a time. We ought to dance with

19 rapture that we should be alive and in the

20 flesh, and part of the living incarnate

21 cosmos. I am part of the sun as my eye is

22 part of me. That I am part of the earth, my
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1 feet know perfectly and my blood is part of

2 the sea. My soul knows that I am part of the

3 human race. My soul is an organic part of the

4 great human soul, as my spirit is part of my

5 nation. In my own very self, I am part of my

6 family. There's nothing of me that is alone

7 and absolute except my mind, and we shall find

8 that the mind has no existence by itself. It

9 is only the glitter of the sun on the surface

10 of the waters.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

12 John. That was lovely. The first order of

13 the day is the Livestock Subcommittee, Tracy

14 Favre, Chairperson.

15 Livestock Subcommittee Report

16 MS. FAVRE: Thank you, Jean. Good

17 morning, everyone. I hope you managed to

18 survive running the gauntlet of teenage

19 hormones and blue corduroy this morning as you

20 came down the hallway.

21 First order of business for us

22 this morning is going to be the discussion
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1 document proposal, the livestock vaccines made

2 with excluded methods. Jean was our lead on

3 that, so Madam Chair, I'll turn that back over

4 to you.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

6 Well, this wasn't an easy one and it isn't an

7 easy one, and it's not going to go on being

8 easy for the next few years, I think. I'll

9 first of all run through the public comments

10 that we've received for this round, because

11 obviously there's been several reports that

12 we've put out over the last two and a half

13 years or so.

14 We have received about 150 written

15 public comments, which give us a very useful

16 body, I think, of public comment for us all to

17 consider, and I really thank everyone very

18 much for the comments that came in, because

19 the amount of detail that we had in those

20 comments, I think, will be very useful to us

21 as we try to wrestle with this issue.

22 So there were many -- to summarize
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1 the comments, there were many individuals who

2 sent reminders that the public does not expect

3 GMOs in organics, and we all agree on that. 

4 There are no GMOs in organics and should not

5 be.

6 There were about 120 individuals

7 who agreed with the comments made by Beyond

8 Pesticides, that the NOSB shouldn't send this

9 back -- should not send it on to the NOP, but

10 that we on the NOSB should continue to work on

11 a definition of excluded methods.

12 There is concern that the NOP, on

13 its own, isn't going to be able to deal with

14 this, because it involves a much wider range

15 of stakeholders, and that the Secretary of

16 Agriculture should however be asked to develop

17 a list of approved vaccines, and I'll talk a

18 bit more about that in a minute or two.

19 There's also concern that because

20 the USDA also promotes genetic engineering, it

21 means that there may be sort of a conflict in

22 their ability to deal with it, and let's see. 
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1 The National Organic Coalition was similar to

2 those of Beyond Pesticides, and they

3 recommended also that the guidance should come

4 from the NOSB and not the NOP.

5 The Center for Food Safety agrees

6 with the NOSB that a comprehensive system of

7 classifying the available vaccines is needed,

8 and that certainly is one of the main

9 messages, I think, that we still have to

10 continue working on over the next year through

11 the NOP, in order to avoid the risk of

12 producers accidentally or unintentionally

13 using a prohibited technology.

14 Everyone agrees that we need a

15 definition, a new definition of excluded

16 methods. The Center for Food Safety does not

17 agree with the use of GMO vaccines even during

18 emergencies, and the CFS also reminds us that

19 consumers seek out organics specifically to

20 avoid GMOs.

21 One commenter in the written

22 materials, speaking on behalf of the poultry
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1 industry, expressed serious concern that the

2 poultry industry needs to have the ability to

3 use a GMO vaccine, if necessary, against some

4 salmonella strains, and certainly we heard

5 that in an oral comment with California soon

6 to be requiring one of the salmonella GMO

7 vaccines to be used as part of their

8 salmonella control policies.

9 While it's easy for me to remind

10 the poultry industry that they can certainly

11 petition the NOSB for a GMO vaccine, I know

12 that that takes time. But that is something

13 that is on the books and it could be done, and

14 it's part of the system in place right now. 

15 But it is obviously a time-consuming thing to

16 do.

17 Certainly, the salmonella was the

18 one area -- it's not all the salmonella, but

19 one of the salmonella strains was certainly

20 the one sort of serious hole in the vaccine

21 list that we found when Nick and I were

22 working on the working group.
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1 For everything else, we found that

2 it was possible -- that we are aware of was

3 possible to have non-GMOs. But the salmonella

4 is the sticking point. The Farmworker Support

5 Committee asks that we work towards a

6 definition of excluded methods. 

7 MOSES agreed with allowing GMO

8 vaccines in federal and state emergencies, and

9 they would suggest also allowing GMO vaccines

10 if there were no non-GMO vaccines available

11 that served the same purpose.

12 Cornucopia supports the Livestock

13 Subcommittee's report and recommendation that

14 the NOP develop guidance necessary to help the

15 certifiers in their work. 

16 Three certifiers provided

17 comments. PCO expressed support for the

18 recommendation and stated the following: the

19 success of any guidance regarding GMO vaccines

20 is inextricably linked to a thorough

21 definition of excluded methods.

22 PCO goes on to suggest that future
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1 NOP guidance should be done in conjunction

2 with the Materials GMO Ad Hoc work on excluded

3 methods terminology. While there is some

4 overlap, there is also some differences

5 obviously with vaccines as opposed to seed. 

6 But we obviously can consider that.

7 MOSA, Midwest Organic Services,

8 expressed widespread concern that for

9 certifiers who have to review the vaccines

10 used by their clients, and the need for

11 clarity now regards excluded methods, and they

12 ask for a trade name list of vaccines made

13 with excluded methods.

14 NOFA Vermont asks the NOSB to work

15 collaboratively with the NOP on the issue. 

16 Organic Valley Crop Cooperative said, we

17 appreciate the work and research the Livestock

18 Subcommittee put into the vaccines report and

19 proposal, and look forward to guidance from

20 the NOP.

21 They added we asked the NOP to

22 consider the effects of the California egg
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1 safety rule on organic farmers shipping eggs

2 into California. The Alliance for Natural

3 Health wants the NOSB to work for

4 clarification. OTA supports the vaccine

5 document and recommendations and states,

6 quote, the OTA agrees that the prohibition on

7 excluded methods in organic production must be

8 affirmed by appropriate guidance on avoiding

9 excluded methods in all aspects of the organic

10 industry, including Livestock vaccines.

11 The OTA thanked the Livestock

12 Committee for the work, and especially for the

13 history of the work done to date as we move

14 forward.

15 So that's just a synopsis of the

16 comments for this one. The comments from all

17 the previous reports we have done were

18 incorporated into the report which went on the

19 Federal Register. Just to sort of respond to

20 some of the concerns, I think working up a

21 list is -- it's not -- even that's not easy,

22 and there are lots of reasons for it.
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1 But I mean I think that the NOP

2 needs to work with the right folks to try to

3 get that to happen. Perhaps they should set

4 up a new working group next year when they've

5 had time to think through which pieces of it

6 to work on in sequence, because when you

7 looked at the ---

8 When we looked at the APHIS's CVB,

9 which regulates the vaccines, what we found

10 was that the CVB tracks the vaccines that are

11 made through biotechnology, but their

12 evaluation of whether a vaccine produced

13 through biotechnology, what that exactly

14 means, doesn't actually align very well with 

15 the organic standard for excluded methods.

16 So even though we have a list with

17 all kinds of symbols next to it, which you can

18 more or less translate and more or less use as

19 a certifier, it really isn't a perfect match. 

20 So that would be one of the areas in which the

21 NOP should try to work with the CVB, to see if

22 they can get a better alignment for the
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1 technological -- the biotechnology as opposed

2 to the excluded method definition.

3 CVB does review the use of

4 biotechnology. However, if only the cell line

5 is used to culture the vaccine seed as a

6 genetic insertion, deletion or mutation, then

7 the vaccine itself is not considered to be

8 recombinant.

9 So there's a sort of a, you know,

10 a nuanced difference there that makes the --

11 makes the way in which you might write a list

12 really very complicated to do. But it doesn't

13 mean we shouldn't keep on trying to do it.

14 The other thing that I -- let's

15 see, that I thought was important to sort of

16 highlight was related to what we found, as we

17 worked through the committee, was the use of

18 transposons in vaccine production.

19 The working group considered that

20 if transposons would fit into the allowance

21 for traditional breeding techniques, then the

22 working group couldn't be clear at what point
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1 traditional breeding techniques are divided

2 from the modern or non-traditional breeding

3 techniques.

4 So is there a point in time at

5 which all techniques before that time are

6 considered traditional, and all new techniques

7 developed after that time are not considered

8 traditional. So the definition of excluded

9 methods allows traditional breeding

10 techniques. So the distinction then becomes

11 important for organic producers. We don't

12 have sort of a date there which we have really

13 talked about to agree on, at which point we

14 can then move forward and determine which of

15 the techniques fall within this definition or

16 within a new definition.

17 So I wish it was easy, but the

18 easy things have been done already. We just

19 have the difficult ones facing us ahead. So

20 with all these things going on, I think that

21 I can sum up sort of by saying that we still

22 need a list that is an interim useful list
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1 that certifiers can use, and I think that that

2 is something that the NOP could in fact be

3 working on.

4 We need to remind the poultry

5 producers that they can petition for an

6 exception although -- and that may be -- even

7 though that takes a long time, that may be

8 worthwhile doing, and perhaps we should

9 consider suggesting that the NOP additionally

10 sets up a new working group next year some

11 time, that we can work on specific issues of

12 the excluded methods definition and see how

13 that goes.

14 But it isn't easy, and I don't

15 think right now that there's anything further

16 really that the NOSB can do. So I really

17 would like to see the NOP take a shot at

18 developing appropriate guidance, and I know

19 Miles really wants to get this back on his

20 plate. Comments? Do we have any discussion? 

21 Colehour, you had a question?

22 MR. BONDERA: Yes, thank you. I
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1 guess you made a comment in your presentation,

2 and I think that I have -- I probably came in

3 here with it, so I'm probably carrying it

4 around a little bit.

5 So it was just a little snippet of

6 something you said, and I'd like you to expand

7 on it, which is related to the excluded

8 methods definition issues, which is a broader

9 category. 

10 My opinion is that this vaccine

11 component fits within that, and I'm wondering

12 if you could address or talk about how an

13 excluded methods working group, for example,

14 would not only be on excluded -- on vaccines

15 per se, but on the more broad topic that we

16 had presented from the Materials Committee, in

17 terms of how this fits into the bigger picture

18 of excluded methods, and you did mention at

19 least one comment related to that subject.

20 I think from my perspective, you

21 know, putting the pieces together is a

22 critical component, and working on them
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1 separately, my experience is they seem to get

2 sometimes lost and not associated. 

3 I think since we as a group have

4 been working on this, that's one of my

5 questions and concerns is, can we put this all

6 together and how it's going to come all

7 together. So a little bit unclear to me. So

8 I don't know if you can expand or address that

9 a little further. Thank you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well, I'll

11 probably ask Zea to add in some comments here

12 from her working group and obviously I've been

13 sitting in on that and reading the materials

14 from the GMO Working Group and the excluded

15 methods discussion.

16 And to some -- to a large extent

17 obviously, when eventually we come up with a

18 new definition of excluded methods, whenever

19 that is, it will apply, I would assume, across

20 both plant and vaccine materials. 

21 But I think that there's enough of

22 a difference that we still have to be looking
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1 and working right now on getting the --

2 working on using the present definition of

3 excluded methods to try to get a list in the

4 short-term, so to speak, because it's going to

5 be a long time before there is in fact a new

6 definition.

7 I think from the way I look at the

8 genetics, is that there's enough of a

9 difference that it doesn't entirely fall all

10 within the same -- the same sort of motif, if

11 you will, as the seeds one that Zea's been

12 working on.

13 But Zea, I wonder if you can add

14 what you think and your perspective as to

15 whether we should roll these two things in

16 together.

17 MS. SONNABEND: I do think long

18 term for sure. But as you say, it's going to

19 be quite a long time until we have a

20 definition, much less get into the weeds on

21 the exact methods. 

22 I do know, and to complicate
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1 matters, I do know that the feedback we

2 received from the first discussion document,

3 particularly regarding the transposons and

4 transduction techniques, which was mostly from

5 FiBL in Switzerland and they had it in their

6 chart, and they said it depends. 

7 They gave, you know, a few

8 examples of what it depends on. But that's

9 not an answer we can work with right now. So

10 we're going to have to sift through it and

11 it's not there yet.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, Nick.

13 MR. MARAVELL: Yes. I'd just like

14 to make a few observations and also concur,

15 Jean, with what you just said, that if we try

16 to take the GMO vaccine issue and roll it in

17 with the definition of excluded methods, at

18 this very moment, it will result in a delay of

19 moving forward with the -- with the immediate

20 need to identify which vaccines do seem to be

21 permissible.

22 The other sort of minor historical
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1 observations are that going back to a time of

2 traditional breeding or vaccine-making, if I

3 remember correctly, in our work, we discovered

4 the first GMO vaccine in the mid-80's out of

5 ARS. So it's been going on a long time. So

6 if you're looking for a date, it takes you way

7 back.

8 A second observation is it is

9 possible and has been for well over 100 years

10 to develop vaccines without excluded methods,

11 including for poultry. 

12 So I just, you know, would make

13 the point to the organic community, as well as

14 to the Board, and not to make a pun, we've got

15 a little bit of a chicken and egg scenario

16 here, that if we aren't firm in our review of

17 this issue, there'll be no incentive to simply

18 create vaccines that don't use excluded

19 methods that organic poultry producers could

20 take advantage of.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Miles.

22 MR. McEVOY: This is a complicated
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1 issue, and it goes back. I just wanted to

2 remind you of the NOP's response to this issue

3 back in, I think it was in 2010, and this is

4 based on the recommendation that came out of

5 the NOSB in 2009.

6 I just want to read from the memo

7 to the Board at that point. On November 5th,

8 2009, the NOSB made a recommendation to

9 clarify that vaccines produced through

10 excluded methods or GMOs are allowed under

11 205.603, and do not need to be individually

12 petitioned for allowance on the National List. 

13 So that was the recommendation from 2009.

14 Further, the NOSB recommended that

15 vaccines produced from non-excluded methods be

16 located and used before those produced by

17 excluded methods. So we go on to say that the

18 preamble to the National Organic Program final

19 rule states that the Act allows use of animal 

20 vaccines in organic livestock production,

21 given the general prohibition on the use of

22 excluded methods.
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1 However, we believe that animal

2 vaccines produced using excluded methods

3 should not be allowed without an explicit

4 consideration of such materials by the NOSB,

5 and without an affirmative determination from

6 the NOSB that they meet the criteria for

7 inclusion on the National List.

8 It is for that reason that we have

9 not granted this request of commenters, but

10 rather provided an opportunity for review of

11 this narrow range of materials produced using

12 excluded methods through the National List

13 process.

14 The NOP's understanding is that

15 excluded methods are prohibited under Section

16 205.105(e), except for vaccines. Further,

17 this exception applies to vaccines that are

18 produced through excluded methods only if

19 those GMO vaccines are approved according to

20 205.600(a).

21 Vaccines are listed under

22 205.603(a)(4) under Biologics Vaccines. The
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1 NOSB has not reviewed vaccines in accordance

2 with 205.600(a). The listing under

3 205.603(a)(4) of biologics vaccines does not

4 include the allowance of GMO vaccines.

5 The NOP requested a legal review

6 from USDA's Office of General Counsel to

7 determine whether vaccines produced through

8 excluded methods are currently allowed under

9 205.603(a)(4). The OGC opinion supports the

10 position that GMO vaccines are allowed only if

11 they are approved according to 205.600(a), and

12 that has not occurred.

13 The NOP recommends that the NOSB

14 review GMO vaccines under the provisions of

15 205.600(a). The NOP suggests that the Board

16 request a technical review for biologics

17 vaccines, including the status of genetically

18 modified vaccines and assessment of the

19 economic impact of using commercially

20 available criteria for non-genetically

21 modified vaccines.

22 After the Board completes the
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1 evaluation according the OFPA criteria, it may

2 submit a recommendation to NOP to add GMO

3 vaccines to the National List of Allowed and

4 Prohibited Substances.

5 So I just wanted to remind you

6 that that kind of started -- this is -- this

7 process started quite a long time ago, with

8 the recommendation from 2009.

9 There was probably a lot of work

10 done to get to that point from that

11 recommendation from 2009. The Board and the

12 GMO Vaccine Task Force has done a lot of work

13 on this issue, and received a lot of really

14 great information about where to go from here.

15 But we're still sort of at a very

16 difficult situation. It's difficult to know

17 how to go forward. What we're looking for is

18 more specific recommendations, guidance from

19 the NOSB about how to approach this issue of

20 GE vaccines.

21 Currently they're not authorized

22 by the regulations. The challenge is, is that 
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1 how do we determine whether a vaccine is an

2 excluded method or not? There's a lot of

3 information in the report that was submitted

4 previously by the Board, and what I'm hearing

5 now is that the Board wants us to make that

6 distinction, rather than getting that guidance

7 from the Board of how we should make that

8 distinction.

9 We can do that. We did that with

10 cell fusion, for instance. It would take us

11 some time and resources to put that guidance

12 together. But frankly, we'd prefer to have

13 that recommendation come from the Board, of

14 where to make that distinction about what's a

15 GE vaccine, what's an excluded method vaccine.

16 The other thing to consider in all

17 of this is we have a lot of things to do, and

18 I think one thing I've learned over the last

19 five years is that we can't do it all, and

20 that -- so therefore we're trying to focus on

21 what we feel is the highest priorities, and

22 for us, getting the animal welfare
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1 recommendations implemented, it's going to

2 take a lot of work, a lot of resources and

3 that's really going to be our focus.

4 To work on this particular issue,

5 it's not like it's not an important issue. 

6 But it would take us resources, and so yes,

7 it's just a challenge when we can't get it all

8 done, and having some understanding of what

9 the priorities of the Board are for our work

10 would help us in terms of prioritizing our

11 work.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well, let me

13 try and reply to that, and I'm sure then Nick

14 will jump in, is that, you know, we kind of --

15 we did the best we could. Nick and I were on

16 these phone calls, on the working group, with

17 wonderful geneticists from APHIS. 

18 We worked through these lists and

19 looked at all the little letters that say

20 whether it's an R or recombinant or vector or

21 whatever the heck it might be. Then we

22 reached and we were sort of assured by one of
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1 these folks, including NOP staff, excellent

2 in-depth conversations, and we thought we were

3 making some progress and we were going to be

4 able to come up with a useful, functional,

5 boots on the ground list.

6 And then, quite suddenly, there

7 was this whoa, two things, two problem --

8 well, three problem areas. One is that all

9 the -- because all the vaccines are -- they're

10 generally done as sort of -- as groups, and

11 they change regularly in the mixes that

12 they're using around the country, slight

13 variations.

14 Even though they may all be

15 perfectly good non-GMO vaccines, it would be

16 complicated to sort of break them up into

17 their component parts and they -- and then it

18 was determined that Nick and I, as ordinary

19 human beings out here, we were the public and

20 we couldn't really have access to that

21 information which belongs to APHIS and all the

22 good folks that do the work over there.
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1 So as NOSB members, we could not

2 get access to that type of information, not

3 available to us. Then you add in the bit that

4 even if you could get access to that

5 information and start creating a list, as we

6 looked into it further, the NOP staff person,

7 Scott was working on this at the time, then he

8 began to realize that the transposon issue --

9 so when we discussed that with APHIS, in terms

10 of the vaccines we, like Zea, sort of came to

11 a like, I don't know. That's kind of a gray

12 area, it really all depends. And so it was a

13 sort of impasse. We, NOSB persons, could no

14 longer really get the information we needed in

15 order to develop a list.

16 And then you come across then the

17 third sort of main factor, and that is even

18 when you do get there and they're working on

19 the list, even if we could get privy to that 

20 priority CBI information from the

21 manufacturers, you're still faced with the

22 fact that the definition itself isn't a
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1 workable definition for the -- for APHIS and

2 the geneticists to work with, because of the

3 lack of congruity between the way they're

4 doing it now and our NOSB definitions.

5 So from the point of view of just

6 ordinary volunteer Board members, there really

7 is not much more that we can do as a Board. 

8 So it has to go back to the government to

9 begin to determine which groups of people need

10 to be brought into a group to come to various

11 agreements that are both short-term getting a

12 list and the longer-term coming up with a

13 definition of excluded methods.

14 So if I thought that we could work

15 on this, I would keep it in the subcommittee. 

16 But I really can't recommend it. I mean we'll

17 be spinning our wheels, right? Nick, why

18 don't you jump in here?

19 MR. MARAVELL: Well, I'd just like

20 to add a little bit to the history here, about

21 the response of the NOSB to this issue. At

22 our Albuquerque meeting we had, you know, a TR
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1 in hand on GMO vaccines.

2 We had the Livestock Committee

3 make a recommendation, a very specific

4 recommendation, to send forward to the NOP,

5 and in Board discussion, many of the incipient

6 issues that Jean has just alluded to became

7 clear, the public response it became clear

8 that the TR only went so far and that our

9 knowledge, the Board said, let's find out what

10 the shape of the beast is before we take it

11 on, and did not feel comfortable going

12 forward.

13 I think that was a wise decision,

14 rather than shooting in the dark. We really

15 did attempt to respond to the 2010 request to

16 us to provide guidance back to the program,

17 and we received public comment and we got a

18 technical review. 

19 Sometimes you just can't get what

20 you'd like to get, and I think, though, that

21 with all the work that's been done, that we

22 have sort of concluded that perhaps this could
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1 be an issue for poultry producers. That

2 narrows the field down quite a bit. 

3 There are all sorts of other

4 issues that Jean alluded to, with the fact

5 that you stack up your vaccinations. You give

6 a six-way or a five-way or an eight-way

7 vaccine so that you don't traumatize your

8 animals. You give them one shot instead of

9 eight shots for eight different vaccinations.

10 Those are always changing, and if

11 a GMO slips into that formulation, then what

12 you thought you used last year, you can't use

13 again this year. I've got to tell you,

14 farmers, you know. They go, they get what the

15 vet says. They'll buy it off the shelf, the

16 livestock store.

17 You're not going to know, you

18 really are not going to know. So we have

19 tried our best, we really have. We took to

20 heart and it's just a very difficult situation

21 to deal with. I would say, to keep it within

22 the NOSB would be approaching the definition
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1 of insanity.

2 So and I for one will probably go

3 there. Yes, so -- and we also do not have the

4 resources to go further. We would need

5 significant resources to pursue this. This is

6 a big topic. It requires a lot of technical

7 expertise. So I wish we could have gone

8 further.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Mac.

10 MR. STONE: Did you learn enough

11 to know the trend? Is there -- is the

12 development going towards more propensity, if

13 that's the right word, for GMO development or

14 not necessarily or which ones are on?

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No, I don't

16 really think that there's a trend. I mean the

17 salmonella's the big thing. I think that if

18 there was a sudden emergency in some -- I know

19 we talked about rabies at one point as being

20 an issue, or those outbreaks of swine

21 whatever, that you might need to do something.

22 But that would be an emergency
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1 situation. But by and large, no. I mean it's

2 a vast amount -- the vast number of vaccines

3 that are being used are basically traditional

4 and that's the way it's going to stay, because

5 they're very effective. Nick, you want to add

6 to that?

7 MR. MARAVELL: Yes. I think you

8 might say it's analoguous to the seed

9 industry. There was a tremendous promise for

10 GMO seed development, and it's the latest

11 thing and that's where the graduate programs

12 were focused, and that's where the talent was

13 going, et cetera.

14 But then it became clear that, you

15 know, GMO seed was not the silver bullet. If

16 it was, we all would have known it by now. 

17 World hunger would have gone away, et cetera,

18 et cetera.

19 And so I think we saw the same

20 phenomena going on, and we have had testimony

21 both here and in committee calls, where some

22 purveyors of vaccines have said in effect they
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1 can bring a vaccine to market quicker and

2 equally as targeted without GMO technology.

3 Part of the quickness is simply

4 regulatory. They don't have the same type of

5 regulatory hurdles. So you know, it's hard to

6 say. Mac, I know you've put a lot of time and

7 effort into this too, and it depends on who

8 you ask.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yeah. I simply

10 could add that when we did a -- the ACA did

11 a survey, and certainly I got a lot of

12 feedback after the last meeting, where I'd

13 asked for feedback from farmers and from

14 certifiers. 

15 I don't really find any evidence

16 of non-GMO vaccines being used. I have to

17 admit -- I mean again, I'm going to say the

18 exclusion being probably that salmonella in

19 the poultry industry. But otherwise, it

20 doesn't seem to me like it's a serious issue

21 of GMO vaccines being used, right.

22 Other questions or concerns? So
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1 I'd like to see us just give it back to Miles,

2 so to speak, although that motion might be

3 worded differently for the record. He's not

4 looking in the least bit happy. So can we --

5 Madam Chair, would you like to call the

6 question?

7 MS. FAVRE: Yes. Let's call the

8 question on this, and I believe we have a

9 seconded motion currently. Let me look to see

10 who's --

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, there was

12 a seconded motion, motion by Jean Richardson,

13 seconded by Colehour Bondera. The motion is

14 to -- the Livestock Subcommittee requests the

15 NOP review this document and provide guidance

16 to the NOSB certifiers and MROs on the use of

17 vaccines made with excluded methods in organic

18 livestock production. Want to do a roll call

19 vote? Yep. So we start with John.

20 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

21 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

22 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, with two
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1 reservations.

2 MR. AUSTIN: Yes.

3 DR. FULWIDER: Yes.

4 MS. SONNABEND: Yes.

5 DR. WALKER: Yes. 

6 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

7 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

8 DR. TAYLOR: Okay, yes.

9 MR. THICKE: Yes.

10 MS. BECK: Yes.

11 MS. FAVRE: Yes.

12 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Chair votes

14 yes.

15 MR. STONE: Fifteen yes, zero no's

16 or 14-1/2, Trace.

17 MS. FAVRE: Well, Miles is not

18 happy with this. Well, he can't have it all

19 his own way.

20 So thank you, Jean. We appreciate

21 that. Next on the agenda for the Livestock is

22 just a verbal update on where we stand on a
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1 document that we're creating within the

2 Livestock Subcommittee to discuss.

3 We've informally called it the

4 bread crumb trail for aquaculture. Following 

5 our meeting in San Antonio, which went so

6 swimmingly well, no pun intended, we

7 recognized that there was a good chance that

8 the aquaculture issue might be around and

9 causing consternation for Livestock or

10 subcommittee members, wherever it ends up,

11 long past the time that this current cohort of

12 Board members is working on it.

13 So I know in my work with

14 aquaculture, one of the things that was

15 difficult to get my head around was the

16 context of all the work that had been created

17 previously to my time on the Board, and the

18 conversations that influenced the positions

19 and the discussion and the documents and the

20 recommendations that had come from the

21 previous Board members.

22 So in an effort to sort of capture
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1 that and remind us all where previous Boards

2 had been, we embarked on this effort to put

3 together this bread crumb trail document,

4 discussing sort of the history as we can

5 capture it for aquaculture to date, with the

6 idea that this document would sort of provide

7 an executive summary overview.

8 It won't have the detail probably

9 that some of you would be satisfied with and

10 would like to see. But the intent is to sort

11 of provide that reference point for future

12 Board members, as they continue to debate and

13 discuss the petition materials for

14 aquaculture.

15 We had hoped to have something for

16 us in time for this meeting. That didn't

17 happen. It's actually still in draft form

18 within the Livestock Subcommittee. The intent

19 is to make whatever tweaks we need to within

20 the Livestock Subcommittee, and then circulate

21 it more widely through the whole NOSB, in time

22 for a draft discussion document, for lack of
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1 a better term, that will go out for public

2 comments, in order for folks to give their

3 feedback for the spring meeting.

4 And we chose to do the discussion

5 to document. We could have actually kept this

6 internalized, just sort of a memo internally,

7 because it really is intended to just give us

8 some oral history, written history. But we

9 wanted to provide stakeholders an opportunity

10 to weigh in.

11 At this point it's very factual. 

12 It's sort of a time line. It doesn't discuss

13 the pros and cons or the wailing and gnashing

14 of teeth that went into where the

15 recommendation ended up.

16 So I'm hopeful that once we put

17 our mark onto it and it goes out for public

18 comment, that everybody will have a chance to

19 put their stamp on it. So look for that with

20 the submission of the documents in order -- in

21 time for the spring meeting.

22 That's where we stand. We wanted
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1 to let people know that even though the

2 materials are currently on the back burner as

3 we discussed at the spring meeting, we won't

4 actively work on those materials again until

5 the draft standards are out.

6 But we did want to let the public

7 know that there is some recognition that this

8 has been a long time coming, and that we are

9 trying to capture the institutional memory as

10 we have it right now, and that we are doing

11 some work on it. So that's where we stand on

12 that. Madam Chair, I believe that concludes

13 the presentation on that if we want to open it

14 up for discussion.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any questions

16 to Trace on the Aquaculture report as it's

17 developing? Mac.

18 MR. STONE: I just want to thank

19 Tracy for persevering through difficult

20 conversation and then taking time to sort of

21 wrap that up and capture the questions that

22 were at the last meeting, and get those in the
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1 record, because it will get cold on us. So I

2 just want to thank you for a lot of due

3 diligence.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

5 Miles.

6 MR. McEVOY: Yeah. Just to get

7 back to the recommendation on GMO vaccines,

8 thank you very much for the recommendation. 

9 We'll be certainly conferring with the

10 Livestock Subcommittee as we work on that

11 guidance, so we might have further

12 discussions, so we could help to clarify where

13 the line is of what's an excluded method in

14 regards to vaccines.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

16 Miles. Jennifer.

17 DR. TAYLOR: (off mic) I know that

18 -- I looked at our document. Have you had a

19 chance to review this document that we

20 received from the Food Safety in regard to

21 pervasive impacts? But given this kind of

22 information that we see from the Food Safety,
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1 that actually documents the escapes and the

2 under-reported incidents, I'm hopeful that we

3 can take this kind of information, this kind

4 of scientific information that's been compiled

5 for us about the adverse effects on marine and 

6 river ecosystems and wild fish.

7 And that we could take this

8 information within the Committee and then also

9 at the program level, and call into question

10 the desirability of ocean-based fish farming

11 to be organic. I suggest that the Board take

12 an opportunity to advise the Secretary to

13 withdraw plans to go forward with the

14 regulations for organic ocean-based fish

15 farming.

16 MS. FAVRE: Thank you for those

17 comments, Jennifer. I'll remind you that we

18 were instructed by the program, at the time

19 that we undertook the materials, that the

20 standards are actually working through

21 clearance, and although we might have an

22 opportunity influence the implementation of
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1 those standards through the way that we might

2 annotate materials, we don't currently have

3 the opportunity to revise the standards.

4 I'm sure under the public comment

5 period, public comment, feedback, as well as

6 our feelings from the Board, would be taken

7 into consideration by the program. So thank

8 you.

9 DR. TAYLOR: Great, thank you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Colehour.

11 MR. BONDERA: I guess to follow up

12 on Jennifer's question, I personally would

13 like a little bit more clarity, and I don't

14 know, Jean, if Jean needs to weigh in or the

15 program does. But can somebody sort of expand

16 on what you just said, I think Tracy, in terms

17 of how or if we, the NOSB, could recommend

18 reconsideration of the recommendation that was

19 made, to bring it back to a review in terms of 

20 yeah, I understand that it's already been made

21 and it already has been moved forward on.

22 But if there is new information
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1 and it does merit reconsideration, what is

2 that process? Is that process just us

3 responding to something once a rule is put

4 out, or does the NOSB have the capacity to

5 take some other action, to make a

6 recommendation for reconsideration of a

7 recommendation that we made in the past?

8 I would like a little bit more

9 expansion on that concept at this point in

10 time please. Thank you.

11 MR. McEVOY: Yeah. The NOSB has

12 what used to be called a work plan, an agenda

13 for the work that they're going to do in the

14 upcoming -- Mac describes it as an upcoming

15 semester or next year, and that's on the

16 agenda for discussion later today.

17 Certainly, the NOSB can come up

18 with their concepts of what they want to work

19 on, and there's the required things in terms

20 of petitions and sunsets, and there's a number

21 of other ideas that Board members feel are

22 important to work on.
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1 I think in terms of aquaculture

2 particularly, and it's likely better for

3 discussion this afternoon, we do have final

4 recommendations from the Board that we're in

5 the process of writing proposed rules on. 

6 They were done by the Board over a

7 period of years as a number of

8 recommendations. I think it would be not a

9 good concept to go -- to not allow us to

10 finish the process of putting out a proposed

11 rule for public comment and finish that

12 process.

13 Once that is complete, then maybe

14 that would be the appropriate time for the

15 Board to take up looking at the final work,

16 based on the recommendations that were

17 previously done.

18 MS. FAVRE: Thank you, Miles. I

19 just want to add that I can appreciate the

20 frustration of those of us that might not

21 agree with the current proposed standards that

22 came out of the Board.
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1 I agree with Miles that the proper

2 vehicle by which to do that is to let the

3 process move forward, to avail ourselves of

4 the public comment period, add our voices as

5 a Board or a subcommittee with our

6 recommendations, and we said pretty clearly

7 and got the feedback from the public pretty

8 clearly at the meeting in San Antonio that the

9 materials themselves should be evaluated in

10 the framework of the standards.

11 I think we have an opportunity to

12 influence the implementation of those

13 standards through our recommendations and

14 proposals for the materials themselves to get

15 started, and that might be a more appropriate

16 vehicle for us to influence the outcome. Just

17 my opinion.

18 Are there any other questions or

19 comments on the aquaculture document?

20 (No response.)

21 MS. FAVRE: Madam Chair, that

22 concludes the Livestock Subcommittee report. 
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1 Thank you.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. The

3 next item on the agenda is Crop Subcommittee. 

4 Zea.

5 Crop Subcommittee Report

6 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you. 

7 Welcome to the Crop Subcommittee. The first

8 thing on our agenda is a verbal update on

9 inerts, which will be given by Emily Brown

10 Rosen, as representing the Inerts Working

11 Group.

12 MS. BROWN ROSEN: Good morning

13 everyone. Nice to see everyone bright and

14 chipper after that exciting game last night. 

15 That should put us all in a good mood today,

16 if you're on the right side.

17 All right. So we've been giving

18 an update every meeting on what's going on

19 with the Inerts Working Group, and so I'm

20 trying to get a little -- whoops, okay. Our

21 Inerts Working Group consists of these members

22 from the Board. We have Jay Feldman, Zea
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1 Sonnabend, from NOP staff myself and Lisa

2 Brines.

3 And then from EPA we have two

4 people, Chris Pfeiffer and Kerry Leifer from

5 the Biopesticides and Registration Division. 

6 So they have been very helpful to us.

7 This is, you know, you've seen

8 this before. But this is the chart, or a

9 little background information that's kind of

10 a complicated topic. The Organic Foods

11 Production Act does allow the use of inerts. 

12 It specifically provides that

13 inerts used in pesticides may be used in

14 organic, as long as they're classified by EPA

15 as not of toxicological concern.

16 So that's basically all. It says 

17 enough, but -- and that's where it's up to --

18 it's been up to the past Board and continuing

19 action as what is not of toxicological

20 concern.

21 That NOP definition is really a

22 rephrasing of the EPA definition of inert
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1 ingredients, and this means it's basically any

2 ingredient that's not considered active in a

3 pesticide, that's intentionally added to a

4 pesticide product.

5 But concern from the community,

6 you know. For a long time from the

7 environmental community is that these -- some

8 of these inert ingredients in fact are not

9 actually inert. They're just not -- they may

10 have some other undesirable consequences, but

11 they're not maybe necessarily the active

12 ingredient that kills the pest.

13 So currently on our National List

14 we have an allowance on our list for inerts of

15 minimal concern, only those that are classed

16 as List 4 by EPA, and they're allowed for

17 pesticides in crops and livestock.

18 We also have a listing for List 3

19 that are allowed only in passive pheromone

20 dispensers, which would be generally like your

21 traps that are used for monitoring, or for

22 mating disruption.
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1 Both of these items are subject to

2 sunset review. The List 4's are up for 2017

3 as part of the big review of 2017, and the

4 List 3's are still -- they're sunsetting the

5 following year, 2018.

6 The issue in this case is that

7 this list system, EPA class lists inerts as

8 List 1, 2 or 3, and this is an old system that

9 they have phased out. That was an initial

10 grouping, and they no longer maintain that. 

11 So we are operating with this

12 list, which is just a static, obsolete list

13 that you can still -- it's still posted on the

14 Internet, but it's not being changed or added

15 to, and it was last updated by EPA in 2004.

16 And so we have manufacturers now

17 petitioning the Board. We have a number of

18 petitions sort of on hold that, you know,

19 might be better in some cases than some of the

20 ones on List 4 now. But we don't really --

21 they're not grandfathered into the list that

22 we're using.
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1 So just to run through how long

2 we've been working on this. I know it's been

3 a long time. Initially, April 2010 there was

4 an NOSB recommendation, and it's always been

5 a tough issue to grapple with. But at that

6 point the proposal said we should really see

7 if EPA can help us do this review for us or,

8 if not, what would be the options for

9 reviewing and listing them directly by the

10 NOSB or proposing to list them.

11 Then 2010, we had the 2012 sunset

12 review, and none of List 4 inerts were

13 renewed, and then the following December the

14 first Inerts Working Group was established,

15 and we started meeting with EPA. At that

16 time, you know, we actively pursued the idea

17 of collaborating with EPA, and the people we

18 were dealing with on the Committee said no,

19 no, no, this is your rule. 

20 It's AMS. NOP is going to have to 

21 be responsible for this list, and we're not

22 going to be able to just, you know, do it for
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1 you. I mean that was kind of our first line

2 of defense. Maybe they could help us do it or

3 set up a special process for us.

4 So then we went down the route of

5 -- well, there was another NOSB recommendation

6 which proposed this policy, to review all the

7 known inerts that are currently in use, group

8 them together and do technical reviews, and

9 then put all of them on the National List.

10 So we started collecting

11 information. The working group developed a

12 list of known inerts. We were able to get

13 lists of inerts that are currently going to be

14 in use, that were provided to us by a couple

15 of material review organizations without --

16 you know, without any identification as to

17 what exact products are in, just to give us a

18 snapshot at that time of what's being used,

19 and then try to develop a plan to work on

20 reviewing them and public notification.

21 This list turned out to have about

22 127 items on it. Then starting in about May
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1 2013, or a little before then, we started --

2 the NOP staff started meeting with EPA staff. 

3 We became aware of a different program in a

4 different branch of EPA that's called Design

5 for the Environment. 

6 This is a voluntary labeling

7 program that is fairly new, and they had just

8 at that point started up with a new program. 

9 They've been doing -- they set up criteria and

10 they have been developing lists of products,

11 mainly like cleaning and sanitizing products,

12 that are safer for the environment.

13 But as an offshoot of that, they

14 also developed -- they started publishing a

15 list of ingredients that they have reviewed,

16 according to a very complex and strict set of

17 standards for safety and environmental impact,

18 and this is called the Safer Chemical

19 Ingredient List, and they also have been

20 publishing criteria for this, which you can

21 all go to their website and see. 

22 It's quite detailed, and right now
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1 they have over 650 chemicals listed on this

2 Safer Chemical List. So we started talking to

3 them, and they're very interested in working

4 with us on this issue.

5 They actually took a look -- the

6 staff there took a look at this list that

7 we've compiled so far, and told us that at

8 least 48 of these 127 are already on this

9 Safer Chemical Ingredient List.

10 They thought that about maybe 15

11 or 20 had been reviewed or would not qualify

12 for that list, and you know, there would be

13 others they didn't know yet what they would

14 be. But there was a lot of interest there in

15 working with us. So it caused us at the NOP

16 staff to go back to our initial concept of

17 reviewing all the ingredients and doing all

18 these technical reviews and then putting them

19 on the list, and then having to -- it might be

20 a different way to handle this concern.

21 So we've been exploring with --

22 since April, this is what we've been doing. 
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1 We've been exploring the concept further of

2 collaborating with this group. I'll check

3 with the lawyers at OGC, just to see how they

4 felt about us having some kind of --

5 You know, how this would work out

6 in the long run, could we do this, could we

7 have a collaborative program. It took a

8 little while to get them to look at it, but

9 they agreed that this would be a very

10 worthwhile thing. It meets the overall goals

11 of streamlining government and working, you

12 know, not duplicating actions, and they

13 thought it could be very valuable.

14 So where it stands now is that

15 people, we are trying to set up a meeting. 

16 The DFE people wanted more background

17 information to take to their higher

18 management, and we are planning to have a

19 meeting between a little bit higher levels of

20 AMS and EPA, and then trying to figure out how

21 this would work, get some -- you know, get

22 more ideas on paper and see if we could set up
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1 a designer program and then follow through on

2 it.

3 So once we have that meeting and

4 have more information, we were planning to

5 collaborate further with NOSB, describe the

6 ideas more concretely, and discuss the

7 options, and then the logical next step after

8 that would be to provide public notice of

9 where we're headed, probably ask for more

10 information from the public and manufacturers,

11 to capture inerts that we may not have on our

12 list and find out you know what -- well just

13 also get public feedback on the whole process.

14 So it's, you know, it's kind of

15 complicated because there's a lot of moving

16 parts and steps to go through here, to make

17 some change here, and we recognize that we're

18 still also, you know, on this sunset path here

19 with inerts.

20 So in addition to that track, the 

21 Crops Committee did request a technical review 

22 for one of the categories that had come up on
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1 this list, the nonylphenol ethoxylates or

2 they're often called NPEs.

3 So this is a group that's kind of

4 has a lot of literature published about and

5 it's, you know, of concern. So we thought

6 we'd at least get that track rolling, of some

7 inerts review, while we're pursuing another

8 option that might be an overall, maybe a more

9 balanced or more comprehensive method of

10 reviewing the inerts in inorganic production.

11 So that's my update, and I'm -- if

12 you've got any questions, I'd be happy to

13 answer them.

14 MS. SONNABEND: Thanks, Emily. 

15 I'm just going to add one small point, which

16 is that over the last few years, several inert

17 ingredients have petitioned, through the

18 regular petition process, and I for one feel

19 really bad that, you know, those companies

20 which have taken the trouble to write the

21 petition and just generally disclose

22 everything about their inert, we've not been
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1 able to act quicker on those, because they

2 shouldn't be -- they should be rewarded for

3 cooperating fully with the program.

4 So I've been pushing in the Inerts

5 Working Group, if there's any way we can do

6 those first or somehow, you know, get those

7 reviewed in a more timely way than the others. 

8 So that's something I'm still going to be

9 aiming for, while at the same time trying to

10 make this actually happen.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nick had a

12 question.

13 MS. SONNABEND: All right.

14 MR. MARAVELL: Yeah. I was just

15 wondering, there's been a lot of work put into

16 this Inerts Working Group. So my question is

17 actually addressed to Jay, and I was wondering

18 Jay, do you think that you will be able to

19 continue or do you want to continue your

20 participation in this working group?

21 MR. FELDMAN: Well, I think it

22 would be nice for the working group to involve
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1 outside people. It doesn't necessarily have

2 to be me, but I think it's a good idea. There

3 are a lot of people who could contribute to

4 this process. 

5 So I'd be happy to do that, but I

6 think there are a lot of people that could be

7 chosen. I think it would be helpful to do

8 that. Zea, may I make or Madam Chair, may I

9 make a comment on this? Okay.

10 Last night we were at dinner, and

11 an older gentleman came over to the table and

12 was doing some magic tricks for us. He asked

13 Colehour to pick a card from the deck, and

14 Colehour hesitated.

15 The gentleman said "Hurry up and

16 decide before I die," and that's sort of how

17 I feel. You had to have been there, right, to

18 see this guy. He was rather elderly.

19 MR. BONDERA: He was awesome.

20 MR. FELDMAN: That's sort of how I

21 feel about this whole process, although I

22 should say I do appreciate the program's
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1 receptiveness conceptually to this process,

2 and the acknowledgment that it has to be done. 

3 We're struggling with getting it done in a

4 timely way, so that we can move things along.

5 One of the most important things

6 we could do right now, which wasn't really

7 mentioned here Emily in your presentation, is

8 to ask manufacturers that are producing

9 materials for use in organic production,

10 whether the list that has been generated by

11 the -- sorry, by the Inerts Working group, is

12 a complete list.

13 So that EPA does this all the time

14 as you know through data calling notices. I

15 believe it was the intent of the Inerts

16 Working Group to publish such a list, which

17 really are materials that fit into the

18 categories that were already released to the

19 public.

20 At the Providence meeting in 2012,

21 we actually in our presentation listed the

22 categories that were developed as a result of
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1 that list being generated. So all we would do

2 is in a sense fill in that list, publish it in

3 the Federal Register and put out notices

4 through the certifiers, through the

5 environmental or through the organic

6 community, and request the community of

7 registrants in a sense -- these are materials

8 that are registered for the most part with EPA

9 in some way -- to help the working group and

10 thus this Board identify the list as being

11 complete or incomplete in some way.

12 In that way, when the Board goes

13 and reviews these materials in the future, it

14 knows that if it's not on this list and under

15 review, then those inerts cannot be used. So

16 you've got a finite list, and they can all be

17 petitioned and we can go through that process

18 or the Board can go through that process.

19 So I don't know if that's still

20 part of the process, Emily, and if that could

21 be expedited in some way so that when the

22 Board or when the working group is ready to
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1 move on these things, it has the framework, it

2 has the full list of materials, at least, for

3 a starting point to begin the actual review.

4 MS. BROWN ROSEN: Yes. I didn't

5 explicitly say that, but you know, we would

6 have to do a Federal Register notice to

7 announce, and we haven't decided exactly what

8 format that would be. But most likely that

9 would be effective to give advance notice.

10 I think our EPA colleagues advised

11 that would be a good way to, you know, get

12 everything, you know, assure that when you do

13 get to rulemaking, that you've provided an

14 opportunity for people to come to the table. 

15 I think that is a good point, yes.

16 MR. FELDMAN: Right. The other

17 thing I wanted to -- thank you -- the other

18 thing I wanted to note for the Board, you saw

19 that little colloquy we had with Neudorff

20 yesterday, the manufacturer of the ferric

21 phosphate product Sluggo.

22 That -- and you heard, this is
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1 something everybody should take note of, I

2 think. You heard the manufacturer say that

3 they are searching and moving towards safer

4 inert ingredients. 

5 One of the things this process

6 does and you should be aware of, and you may

7 already be, that when a Board like this

8 discusses matters of this nature in public and

9 publishes lists for public input,

10 manufacturers start voluntarily moving on

11 their own to find safer products.

12 They look for Design for the

13 Environment, they look for the 25(b) program,

14 which is a safer pesticide program within EPA. 

15 They look for -- it creates incentive for them

16 to search around for safer inert ingredients.

17 So there's the regulatory part of what the

18 Board does, but there's also the public

19 conversation that has -- incentivizes

20 manufacturers to find safer materials for

21 their products.

22 So the longer this stays in the
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1 Inerts Working Group, the longer this does not

2 get out into the Federal Register, and really

3 give the opportunity to the manufacturing

4 community, the opportunity to weigh in, have

5 the conversation, understand what this Board

6 passed as a matter of policy back in 2010.

7 The longer we wait on all of that,

8 the slower this process will be. So I would

9 just again really appeal to the program, to

10 bump this up as a higher priority within all

11 the other important priorities and things

12 you're doing, and move this along. Thank you.

13 MS. SONNABEND: I think what Jay

14 is suggesting is in part going to happen by

15 our commissioning the TR for the NPEs, and at

16 the point that that TR comes back, those

17 issues will very much be made public for the

18 formulating community to see that they may

19 need to start looking for alternatives.

20 It's not out of the question if

21 DFE process is slow for us to ask for TRs for

22 other groups that we've identified within the
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1 process. Okay. We're ready to move on,

2 unless there's more inerts comments. 

3 Colehour, you had one?

4 MR. BONDERA: Yeah. I'll be very

5 quick. I just -- I haven't been on the NOSB

6 since 2010, but when I came on, I felt certain

7 that oh, a relatively new person, Jay, is

8 participating in this. This will be done

9 before he goes off, no problem.

10 And so from my experience and

11 observation it's slow. I understand

12 bureaucratic processes. I understand these

13 governmental issues. But I'm not exactly

14 repeating what Nick was asking, but it really

15 resonates with me in terms of continuity, and

16 actually moving this process along, because I

17 think that if Jay is not continuing to be

18 involved, then some other person or other

19 organization represented in this working

20 group.

21 I just think that the learning

22 curve and the slowness, my observation and
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1 experience is we're going to add a few more

2 years to this very slow process. So I really 

3 encourage whoever is in the deciding

4 positions, to recognize that continuity and

5 moving forward by continuing as is viable with

6 the existing members would not slow things

7 down, but at least allow them to continue.

8 So I encourage Jay and Beyond

9 Pesticides to continue to be involved, so that

10 this doesn't keep going to quote-unquote the

11 next sunset and the next sunset, etcetera,

12 etcetera. Thank you.

13 MS. SONNABEND: Okay. Our next

14 step is our discussion document on

15 contamination issues in farm inputs. In that,

16 we turn to Jay.

17 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. So y'all

18 have seen the document that the Crops

19 Committee's been working on, in protecting

20 against contamination of farm inputs. We

21 appreciate all the public comments we received

22 on this. This is an important topic, I know,
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1 for the community.

2 So we have a short presentation,

3 which will sort of summarize what the intent

4 of the subcommittee is and some of the public

5 comments that we've received. These are the

6 issues that are driving this project, heavy

7 metal contamination of manure, compost, mined

8 minerals and fish products; neonicotinoid

9 residues that could harm pollinators when

10 taken up by plants; insecticide residue such

11 as bifenthrin that can be detected in compost;

12 excessive foreign materials in compost and

13 green waste; antibiotic residues and manures

14 that can result in tetracycline-resistant

15 bacteria; genetically engineered plant

16 material that may or may not break down in

17 compost.

18 These are important issues that

19 are out there in the environment. We're not

20 saying these are problems for the organic

21 community. However, these are issues that

22 need to be questioned or at least considered
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1 in looking at inputs that organic producers

2 may choose to use.

3 The pathways for contaminants that

4 may enter the organic production system

5 products and eventually consumers, is through

6 fertilizers and soil amendments, irrigation

7 water, genetically engineered plant material

8 and contamination in the field.

9 In terms of fertilizers and soil

10 amendments, there's the potential for heavy

11 metals, pesticides, antibiotics are among the

12 contaminants that arrive in organic materials

13 used for compost and mulch. There's the

14 potential for herbicide contamination in a

15 particular problem -- or is a particular

16 problem because it damages plants.

17 Again potentially, manure from

18 animals raised in non-organic agriculture may

19 contain residues of antibiotics fed to the

20 animals that may or may not decompose using

21 compost, and contaminants may be in pesticides

22 and fertilizer products.
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1 So we went out as a subcommittee

2 to seek public input in the following areas: 

3 Contamination incidents in the past,

4 contaminants of concern, contamination

5 pathways of concern, expert and other

6 resources that would assist the subcommittee

7 in its goal of ultimately proposing a process

8 for addressing contamination, or I should say

9 prevention of contamination of inputs that may

10 be brought onto the farm.

11 The concept is and obviously this

12 is open to ongoing discussion, is that the

13 Crops Subcommittee would proceed by inviting

14 expert speakers to upcoming meetings of the

15 subcommittee. Between the fall, this meeting

16 and the spring meeting, the subcommittee may

17 select an area of focus.

18 At the spring -- so of all the

19 issues that were raised in these previous

20 slides, obviously the best way to go at this

21 is to identify an area of focus and begin with

22 that, and then proceed through the rest of the
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1 list as necessary.

2 So at the spring 2015 meeting, the

3 subcommittee plans to present a paper

4 examining the state of knowledge on the first

5 identified focus area, based on literature

6 reviews, current practices in organic and

7 conversations with experts.

8 A discussion document and a set of

9 research priorities will accompany the paper. 

10 The discussion document will pose several

11 possible strategies to the public for comment,

12 including monitoring protocols, testing

13 protocols, mitigation strategies, possible

14 annotation changes for materials.

15 These are all possible areas of

16 consideration. The subcommittee will propose

17 an approach to the priority contaminant

18 cluster utilizing input from experts.

19 Now in terms of the comments

20 received so far during this process, 15

21 organizations and 89 individuals wrote during

22 this last comment period in support of the
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1 process undertaken by the Crop Subcommittee,

2 and we see here the list of organizations that

3 weighed in on this, including farm,

4 environmental, health, farm worker

5 organizations.

6 So a broad range of organizations

7 that supported the Crops and the NOSB going

8 forward with this. Then we did receive a

9 comment. As you heard in public testimony

10 during this meeting, one organization, CCOF,

11 does not support the process.

12 Quoting from their written

13 comments, "Existing organic standards,

14 certifier oversight and regulatory guidance

15 are sufficient to safeguard the organic food

16 supply from possible input contamination." So

17 that's an argument that we already have the

18 systems in place to address this issue.

19 Other comments we received from

20 Crop. "After consulting with our staff

21 agronomist, there is one more class of

22 contaminants that we are concerned about, that
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1 is not addressed in the document, and that is

2 hormones.

3 "Hormone treatment in conventional

4 livestock is prevalent. We feel it is

5 something we should be concerned about,

6 particularly with manure." So another

7 possible topic for focus by the Crops

8 Subcommittee.

9 Other suggested areas of focus

10 came in. GMOs and farm inputs, specifically

11 corn gluten. GE and wheat contamination. OTA

12 mentioned seed-borne contaminants and several

13 commenters mentioned herbicide contamination.

14 This is a big part of moving

15 forward, identifying experts. The

16 Subcommittee's already identified a number of

17 experts. These are suggested additional

18 experts, with some misspellings here, sorry. 

19 You can see the names there, including public

20 interest groups and university researchers,

21 and of course OMRI being a tremendous source.

22 We've already had a presentation
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1 from OMRI at the subcommittee level. So that

2 concludes the presentation. Thank you.

3 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you Jay, and

4 there were two more experts recommended that

5 I think you didn't catch from NOFA Vermont on

6 their compost residue. But we'll go back and

7 capture them before the -- before we proceed.

8 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.

9 MS. SONNABEND: Comments? Miles.

10 MR. McEVOY: Yeah. This issue of

11 contaminants in composts has been something

12 that certifiers have dealt with for a long

13 period of time. 

14 When I was at Washington State

15 Department of Agriculture, we had significant

16 problems with clopyralid and Picloram in

17 compost that was affecting both organic and

18 conventional production, and there were

19 restrictions put on those pesticides, so that

20 it led to less contamination in the compost,

21 not just for organic producers but for all

22 producers in the state.
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1 So I would suggest that

2 potentially the Washington State Department of

3 Agriculture, with their experience in dealing

4 with pesticide residues in compost. I know

5 California, CDFA has had similar issues in

6 some of the compost that they've had, with

7 bifenthrin residues in compost.

8 I think this is an area that we

9 might be able to really utilize the influence

10 of the NOSB to really affect some change

11 outside of just our direct authority in the

12 National Organic Program by working with EPA. 

13 Because at least on the pesticide

14 contaminants, that EPA is the one that

15 registers or regulates these compounds that

16 potentially are negatively impacting

17 producers, both organic and conventional,

18 gardeners as well, and having them be part of

19 that discussion.

20 So that this information can get

21 in front of them and potentially have some

22 changes on a national level, so that we can
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1 mitigate these kinds of negative impacts.

2 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Thank you,

3 Miles. Zea, was there any further discussion

4 on this topic?

5 MS. SONNABEND: Yeah, go ahead. 

6 Are you discussing?

7 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: I was just

8 stepping in for Jean while she's out, asking

9 if there was further discussion on this

10 particular topic, or if we're ready to move on

11 to the next.

12 MS. SONNABEND: So you call on

13 people? I don't call on people as chair? 

14 Okay.

15 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: I'm happy to

16 do it. Nick was first, then Jennifer.

17 MR. MARAVELL: Yeah. Jay, are you

18 -- are you expecting out of this process that

19 there would be a need for a rule change or a

20 need for guidance, or you're not sure?

21 MR. FELDMAN: Not sure. I mean,

22 you know, I'm a big promoter of rule changes,
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1 because that's something the Board can

2 actually influence. If there could be a

3 collaborative process with the program to come

4 up with guidance, I think ideally that would

5 be a quicker, although not that much quicker,

6 process.

7 But I think that remains to be

8 determined by the Board, as to what the most

9 efficient way to work with the, you know,

10 grower community, producer community to ensure 

11 that the contamination doesn't occur.

12 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Is that

13 Jennifer up next?

14 DR. TAYLOR: Okay, thank you. I

15 just wondered, would we also have an interest

16 in looking at the contamination impact on the

17 nutrient density? Some of the contaminants

18 are contamination through like the glycosides

19 also impact, have residue. Will then impact

20 the nutrient density of the crops, mixed

21 crops.

22 So that could be an added category
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1 or if that is an added interest, as we look at

2 contamination.

3 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: More thoughts,

4 considerations, questions?

5 MR. FELDMAN: No. Jennifer's

6 suggesting that we add a category to look into

7 the impact on contaminant, I'm sorry, of

8 contaminants on nutrient density of crops, and

9 you know, that's another suggestion. I think

10 that the committee should look at that.

11 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Thanks for

12 clarifying, Jay. Are there other questions or

13 considerations on the topic? Mac.

14 MR. STONE: We heard some pretty

15 compelling testimony a couple of days ago

16 about the impact to, in the greenhouse the

17 other day. So maybe this is one of those, the

18 gravitas of this conversation, Jay, just like

19 on -- we can have regulatory and official

20 action. But if we can elevate the

21 conversation, if Betsy in her work, Miles

22 working through the Secretary's office can add
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1 that to the work with the EPA and whatever.

2 So if we have this conversation,

3 that may help faster or elevate the

4 conversation would be something we could do

5 outside of any regulatory authority. 

6 The certifiers do a great job of

7 helping their clients to avoid these types of

8 things, and when clients hear the horror

9 stories like we heard the other day, I think

10 they're pretty aware of it. But if we can

11 elevate it at the national level, I think it's

12 something we can try to do.

13 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Miles.

14 MR. McEVOY: Yeah. One more thing

15 I would add to this whole discussion with

16 contaminants in compost or other inputs is

17 that it would be nice to have the -- the

18 principle that the solution doesn't fall on

19 the backs of the organic farmers, that it's

20 not more burden, regulatory burdens on them to

21 solve this problem, that to solve this

22 problem, it really should be done outside of
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1 on the backs of organic farmers.

2 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Thank you,

3 Miles. Other comments? Seeing none, Zea, do

4 you want to move on the next agenda item?

5 MS. SONNABEND: Okay. Now we're

6 ready to start the 2015 sunset reviews, and so

7 I'm imagining the same ground rules and

8 approach as yesterday, and Jean, we don't need

9 to repeat that again, right? 

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Right.

11 MS. SONNABEND: So we can just

12 start in with the first one, which is

13 sulfurous acid, and that would be Colehour.

14 MR. BONDERA: Okay, thank you. 

15 Sorry. Jay, you need to ask Lisa to read.

16 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you. Sorry,

17 Lisa.

18 MS. BRINES: No problem. The list

19 for sulfurous acid is included on the National

20 List at Section 205.601, paragraph (j)(9),

21 listed as a synthetic substance with the

22 following list.
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1 Sulfurous acid, CAS No. 7782-99-2,

2 for on farm generation of substance utilizing

3 99 percent purity elemental sulfur, per

4 paragraph (j)(2) of this section. This

5 substance was added to the National List in

6 2010, following a petition from 2008 and

7 previous technical reports are available from

8 both 2010 and 2014. Thanks.

9 MR. BONDERA: So sulfurous acid,

10 like it says, we're moving along and this is

11 pretty much what you just got presented by

12 Lisa. So our evaluation criteria we went

13 through, and like it shows, we did have some

14 public comment questioning our -- the first

15 answer, in terms of if that should be a yes or

16 a no.

17 This is what the Subcommittee

18 concluded, but it didn't work, I guess, sorry. 

19 I've tried to summarize to some degree, and I

20 admit in advance that I have left things out

21 and/or chosen things that may or may not be

22 exactly what we could have. But I think that
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1 my goal was to try to bring this together.

2 The Crop Subcommittee members who

3 supported a renewed listing, like it says,

4 pointed out that there are other organic

5 options, but they're not deemed as efficient

6 or as effective. The impact on crop quality

7 and potential environmental impact when using

8 alternative materials can also be a concern,

9 and that we must support, excuse me,

10 producer's needs.

11 Members who opposed the renewed

12 listing identified that it can be -- sulfurous 

13 acid can be substituted with alternatives,

14 including cultural practices and biological

15 controls, that since it's a synthetic product

16 and a tool designed for non-organic

17 agriculture, it's not consistent with organic

18 or sustainable production systems, and the

19 quote-unquote need may reflect unsustainable

20 farming practices.

21 And although we have received

22 public comment and it's true that there is
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1 some international standards that do allow

2 sulfurous acid in crop production, that

3 generally speaking that's not the way it is.

4 You know, we have gone through

5 this process for the previous meetings, so the

6 initial posting had eight comments, and I

7 hesitate to even point out numbers, because

8 I'm not going to be exact.

9 But we had the comments in favor

10 of relisting and comments opposed to relisting

11 of sulfurous acid. Like I said, that's sort

12 of the ratio. The second review or second

13 posting, however we want to characterize this

14 process, didn't really affect the content of

15 what we were presenting.

16 However, I estimated that there's

17 over 24 comments favoring relisting, and I'll

18 point out we all received on our table here

19 the results of a survey from quoting more

20 exact numbers of producers that are favoring

21 relisting.

22 But I just -- you know, and we
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1 received a number of those opposed to

2 relisting like we had. But we also received

3 over a 100, and again I'm not going to cite

4 who's counting how, that requested that the --

5 so quite a number, a significant number, that

6 requested a recommendation be sent back to the

7 Subcommittee and reconsidered, rather than

8 move forward given the process at hand.

9 Some of the public comments, and

10 again this is a somewhat randomized sampling,

11 so I'm not going to be able to quote or cite

12 all of them. But just I chose a few that I

13 thought were characteristic or important

14 enough public comments that came in.

15 From CCOF: "Sulfurous acid is

16 necessary to California organic crop

17 production, and severe drought heightens the

18 need for sulfurous acid in California." 

19 Again, that's California certified organic

20 farmers. So that's focusing on that topic.

21 We heard testimony, live testimony

22 from Reiter Brothers, from Abernathy, and he
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1 said in his written: "Sulfurous acid benefits

2 our plants and soils. It's not a fertilizer,

3 but it allows our fertilizers to be more

4 effective by improving our water and soil

5 quality."

6 So I think that those are relevant

7 and important, and you know, to add to what I

8 already said, this survey from Organic Trade

9 Association points out that responses came

10 from western United States, Mexico and Saudi

11 Arabia.

12 I think when I was putting this

13 together and looking at -- this is the results

14 of their survey but, you know, I was noticing

15 that a lot of the comments had come from the

16 -- the written comments we received had come

17 from California. I'm going to get the states

18 wrong, but they were western states, all of

19 them, Utah.

20 So I think, you know, pointing out

21 that it includes Mexico and Saudi Arabia is

22 not unimportant. Public comments against
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1 relisting. Cornucopia said "More research is

2 needed to understand its modes of action in

3 different soils. The potential emissions of

4 sulfur dioxide into the air and the

5 occupational safety hazards of sulfur

6 burners."

7 That goes back to that comment

8 that I made, in terms of impacts on human and

9 environment, which I think is not irrelevant

10 to consider. Its manufacture is fossil-fuel

11 dependent. Quote-unquote "Enables

12 unsustainable agricultural practices to

13 continue." That comes from Cropp Cooperative.

14 And from CATA, Farmworkers Support

15 Committee: "We urge the NOSB to refer the

16 motion back to Subcommittee, based on the lack

17 of supporting rationale." So I just say all

18 of that to show you that there's a range of

19 understandings and consideration at hand, and

20 I'm going to wrap this up.

21 But I do want to, you know, just

22 summarize what the Subcommittee did in this
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1 process. Like it says in what you received,

2 based on the Subcommittee's review, the

3 Subcommittee proposes removal of the substance

4 from the National List, based on the criteria

5 that were cited, 6158(m)(7), its compatibility

6 with a system of sustainable agriculture.

7 So there was a motion to remove

8 sulfurous acid from the National List, and

9 there's the vote. Four were for that, three

10 were opposed to that, and I think I just want

11 to share with you, and it also is in what we

12 distributed, but I don't have it up on a

13 slide.

14 But I just want to read to you the

15 minority statement on -- because when you look

16 at that vote, you know, that's a tight vote. 

17 The minority statement was "While the minority

18 of the Crop Subcommittee agrees with the

19 majority, that the full NOSB should vote on

20 sunset materials, in voting against the motion

21 it is following what we believe are a required

22 procedure of AMS, USDA, as established by the 
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1 September 16th, 2013 Federal Register notice,

2 which states that motions to remove be

3 justified by criteria established by OFPA.

4 "Because of concerns that a change

5 in NOSB procedures should be disclosed to the

6 public before taking effect, the minority does

7 not accept the compatibility criteria from

8 U.S.C. 6158(m)," what I already cited, "that

9 was provided in this case."

10 "Furthermore, AMS NOP has said

11 that no action by the NOSB maintains the

12 sunset material on the National List." So I

13 just feel that it's worth considering the fact

14 that I think like our chair Zea said, you

15 know, are we looking at the material, or are

16 we contemplating the reality, which is the

17 process that we are engaged in?

18 I personally feel that we can't do

19 them in an isolated manner. So my final

20 slide, I think, speaks a plethora for it,

21 which is enjoy the sunset.

22 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Beautiful.
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1 MR. BONDERA: Thank you.

2 MR. McEVOY: Point of

3 clarification, that the last statement is not

4 accurate, that no action by the NOSB, the

5 material would sunset and be invalid.

6 MR. FELDMAN: Madam Chair, I rise

7 to a parliamentary inquiry?

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Please.

9 MR. FELDMAN: It's friendly.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Be friendly.

11 MR. FELDMAN: It's friendly. I

12 just want the Board, the question I'd ask you,

13 Madam Chair, is whether the person making the

14 motion, in this case a motion to remove, can

15 speak against his motion. 

16 So in this case, John Foster made

17 the motion in Subcommittee to remove this

18 material from all discussions in subcommittee. 

19 It was clear that John did not support the

20 removal of this material, and it would be

21 improper at this time for the maker of the

22 motion to speak against the motion. Robert's
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1 Rules of Order, page 393, lines 19 through 26.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, you're

3 correct. So in order to do this, you would

4 need to put forward a new motion. 

5 MS. SONNABEND: But he hasn't

6 spoken against the motion.

7 MR. FELDMAN: He hasn't spoken

8 against it.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: He hasn't

10 spoken against it, this is true. But you

11 could withdraw the motion and start again with

12 a fresh motion if you wanted to. You don't

13 want to do that? 

14 MR. FELDMAN: No.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: You just don't

16 want him to speak against the motion. Very

17 good.

18 MR. FELDMAN: Sorry John.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea and then

20 Nick.

21 MS. SONNABEND: I would just --

22 since we're in discussion, this is a point of
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1 discussion. I would like to point out that it

2 seems incredibly hypocritical that the

3 minority would question the compatibility

4 motion as being -- the compatibility criteria

5 as being valid, when almost all of the

6 evidence presented by the minority highly

7 questions the compatibility criteria and the

8 compatibility of this material.

9 So I entirely think that the issue

10 of compatibility in this case is well11 supported in the summary document, and is a

12 valid criteria to consider removal from the

13 National List. If you're not going to vote to

14 remove it, that means you think it's

15 compatible, and so therefore your vote is on

16 the record as such, should you choose to do

17 that.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nick.

19 MR. MARAVELL: Yes. Taking a

20 refrain from last night at our dinner, I'm a

21 little bit older than you are, Colehour and

22 Zea, and before I die, I would just like to
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1 know, maybe under the old system or whatever,

2 what did the Subcommittee really think and who

3 was supporting a removal from the National

4 List?

5 Or not who, but I mean what was

6 the sentiment? I'm confused.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well let's just

8 first start with the motion on the floor. 

9 There is a motion on the floor, which was made

10 by John Foster, seconded by Harold Austin, to

11 remove this material from the National List. 

12 So if we could then go back and

13 perhaps ask the -- does the chair want to do

14 this, Zea, to discuss the scope of discussion

15 and what that vote actually meant? Zea.

16 MS. SONNABEND: Okay. I think I

17 -- I think the whole committee believes that

18 the full Board should be voting on sunset

19 materials.

20 Miles told us at the spring

21 meeting that the only way to do that, and he

22 actually said it again yesterday, the only way
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1 to do that is to bring a motion to remove

2 before the Board, the full Board.

3 So in order for the full Board to

4 be able to vote, we have brought a motion to

5 remove before the full Board. The fact that

6 the minority did not like this procedure led

7 them to vote against it. But then they put

8 this minority opinion, because they wanted --

9 they thought they wanted to make it clear that 

10 they supported voting before the full Board,

11 but they just didn't think this was the way to

12 do it.

13 But this is the way we've been

14 given to do it. So allowing my statement, I

15 said yesterday this is what we're doing. 

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nick.

17 MR. MARAVELL: What I'd like to

18 avoid -- thank you Zea -- is let's say John

19 wants to contribute to this conversation, and

20 yet it would appear that he would not be able

21 to. I would think that the same would

22 probably apply to Jay, no, because Jay voted
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1 in a different way.

2 But what I'm saying is have we

3 muzzled ourselves here? I mean I would really

4 like to hear the full texture of the

5 Subcommittee deliberation, because as you can

6 see from the public comments, this raises some

7 very important issues.

8 It's a very difficult decision to

9 make, and I'm just not really clear where the

10 Subcommittee comes out on the substance. I

11 think what we have here is process colliding

12 with substance. Is there some way to get to

13 the substance?

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold.

15 MR. AUSTIN: Okay. As the

16 individual that seconded the motion, I am

17 allowed to speak, according to Jay, right. 

18 Okay, all right. The Crops Committee on this

19 motion, this was actually one of the first

20 materials that we came -- we had to come to

21 grasp with the new process.

22 And I think as we talked a little
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1 bit yesterday, there's a lot of wrinkles that

2 we need to take and try to figure out how to

3 do this in a way that makes it clearer, a lot

4 more clarity, so that the audience understands

5 what we're talking about, the public

6 understands, but more importantly the Board

7 understands.

8 So that when we're in this

9 position, that we have an idea. This was one

10 of the first ones, and so I think, as I

11 alluded to yesterday, we kind of changed on

12 how we voted during the Handling

13 Subcommittee's presentations, so that our

14 votes more reflected the overall sentiment of

15 the Subcommittee.

16 We did not have that luxury in

17 Crops, because Crops, this was our first

18 attempt to deal with it. While I have the

19 mic, I will say that this particular material,

20 I think we've heard a lot -- we are into

21 discussion at this point, are we not Madam

22 Chair?
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1 We've heard a lot of discussion in

2 support of this material. I think the overall

3 sentiment of the Crops Subcommittee was that

4 -- from the majority position was that this

5 material was needed. I think it's a great

6 example of something that has been allowed for

7 use, that really does take and coincide with

8 the very basic fundamental feel, what we

9 really look at when we're talking about

10 organic, and that's soil health.

11 Because everything that we do,

12 organically out on the farms, begins with the

13 health of the soil. At the end of the day, we

14 want to improve it. We want to leave it in a

15 better position and condition than it was when

16 we started. 

17 This is a material that does

18 afford the farmers in the drier western areas

19 and some of the south as well, that

20 opportunity. With the waters and the soil

21 conditions that we have, it's very difficult. 

22 A lot of our water pH is 8.2, 8.3. Our soil
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1 is 7.5 to 7.8.

2 This material, as we've heard

3 through written public testimony on oral

4 presentations yesterday, helps to alleviate

5 some of those difficulties that the growers

6 are faced with. So for me, as the second of

7 the motion, I'm going to vote against the

8 motion, because I think this is something that

9 should stay on the National List, for the

10 growers to be able to continue to utilize.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Mac.

12 MR. STONE: Nick, I think some of

13 the confusion is the quote "minority opinion

14 actually voted -- there were more votes in the

15 minority opinion," and that's where it gets

16 confusing here when I analyze this, what we

17 get here.

18 But we're allowed to use sulfur

19 and pH for blueberries, and this seems like a

20 -- from what I hear, it's a viable way to

21 manage soil fertility in these alkaline soils. 

22 I too intend to vote no, to allow it to stay
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1 on the list.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Francis.

3 MR. THICKE: As a member of the

4 Crops Committee and as a soil scientist, my

5 analysis is that we've got to remember first

6 of all we're farming. This is being used for

7 farming in desert conditions using alkaline

8 water. Now we can argue whether or not we

9 should farm in deserts.

10 But if we're going to farm in

11 deserts under these conditions, then this

12 product will make farming more sustainable,

13 because it will help improve soil quality. It

14 will help improve plant quality, and it will

15 help reduce the number of inputs needed. So

16 I'm going to vote to list it, to relist it.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other

18 questions, comments? The motion on the --

19 yes, Carmela.

20 MS. BECK: In line with Francis

21 and Harold, I firmly believe that it

22 contributes to sustainability, and that it
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1 complies with the OFPA criteria. I think we

2 heard substantial testimony from growers,

3 attesting to the need for this product, and

4 that -- again that it only contributes to the

5 soil. Thank you.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other comments

7 on the motion on the floor? Nick.

8 MR. MARAVELL: This product was

9 added in 2010 to the National List. I was

10 just interested in the Subcommittee's

11 assessment or impression, what sort of change

12 have we seen? What happened before 2010 and

13 what is happening now after 2010?

14 I understand the soil chemistry

15 works. I understand that, but what was -- is

16 there any qualitative difference for the

17 organic community pre-2010, when this material

18 was not approved and now? In other words,

19 what are we seeing as an overall difference,

20 because there are -- there were many comments

21 raised about, you know, how this fits into an

22 overall picture of agriculture.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea.

2 MS. SONNABEND: Yes, I can address

3 the answer to your question. When before the

4 NOP rules came in and this technology was just

5 starting to be adopted, we looked at it in

6 CCOF as the machinery, not as an input.

7 So we -- and since it was sulfur

8 and since sulfur was allowed for other uses,

9 we had approved it. When we got issued a non10 compliance by the early NOP, and we had to

11 tell a grower who had made a big investment in

12 the machines that they had to stop, and at

13 that point, the petition was developed.

14 At that point, not wanting to have

15 unfair competition, we pointed out that

16 Washington State, where Miles was in charge,

17 also allowed it, so they had to stop allowing

18 it also. But to the extent that it had not

19 been ruled on by certifiers but was shown to

20 be beneficial, that's what happened.

21 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Thank you,

22 Zea. 
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1 MR. McEVOY: I'd just like to add

2 to that that I think that it might be similar

3 on the international standard that was noted. 

4 As we saw with the biodegradable mulch

5 situation, under the European organic

6 standards, they don't specifically have

7 biodegradable mulch listed. 

8 But biodegradable mulch is allowed

9 in a lot of European organic farming systems,

10 because of the different way that they look at

11 materials and substances. So I think that we

12 could go back and check with the EU

13 Commission. But I would guess that the way

14 that they're going to look at it is that this

15 is a water treatment. 

16 It's not applied to the field, so

17 therefore it doesn't have to be on their

18 particular list. That's how some certifiers

19 were looking at it before the NOP ruled on

20 this in the mid-2000's.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold. We are

22 running late. I should just point that out to
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1 everybody.

2 MR. AUSTIN: Okay. Just briefly

3 also, to help answer Nick's question. With

4 the addition of this to the list, and the

5 ability for the growers to be able to utilize

6 it, it's reduced the amount of physical inputs

7 that have had to be used in place of this,

8 reduction of the amounts of citric acids,

9 soil-applied sulfur, a lot of different things

10 that have happened, because this really truly

11 is a water treatment.

12 So by being able to treat the

13 water, we're also treating the soil at the

14 same time. It's allowed for increased --

15 especially for blueberries and some of the

16 tree fruit, it's allowed for an increased

17 amount of acreage to transition and move into

18 the organic status, rather than the

19 conventional.

20 So it has helped grow the organic

21 farming segment in those crops, by the ability

22 to be able to treat the water and be able then
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1 to compete, and without all of the inputs. It

2 really truly is environmentally a significant

3 step in the right direction from plant health,

4 soil health.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jay.

6 MR. FELDMAN: The Crop

7 Subcommittee did review the material as

8 required in the Federal Register notice

9 September 16th, 2013. I concur with the

10 minority opinion, that that review was

11 sufficient for the Subcommittee not to act on

12 that material, but to simply review that

13 material.

14 By not acting, I'm referring to

15 adopt a motion. Therefore, it's not required

16 that the full Board act on that motion, except

17 to accept the review and consider the review

18 of the Subcommittee. Therefore that no

19 action, meaning no motion is required at the

20 full Board level. I just want to clarify that

21 for the program.

22 Given that there was no
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1 justification provided for the criterion that

2 was cited here in the majority position, I

3 can't -- I don't see this process as

4 fulfilling the requirements as outlined in the

5 Federal Register notice.

6 Although I see this material as

7 relatively innocuous, and having great benefit

8 as we've heard over the last several days, in

9 my mind this is a classic example of the need

10 for a rigorous sunset process, so that growers

11 can come back on a five-year basis and share

12 with the NOSB what is happening, and the

13 public can know that the review of that

14 material is going to be the most rigorous, and

15 the public can be assured that all the

16 stakeholder groups have come together, through

17 a sunset process that requires a vote by the

18 full Board to relist the material.

19 For that reason, Madam Chair, I

20 will be voting against this. My vote, I

21 realize, will not hurt or have any negative

22 impact on growers that are currently dependent
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1 on this, and for that I am grateful.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea.

3 MS. SONNABEND: I would just like

4 to point out that I couldn't disagree more

5 with Jay about the criteria not being

6 provided. In the motion to remove the lack of

7 satisfying OFPA criteria, 6158(m)(7), which is

8 compatibility with a system of sustainable

9 agriculture.

10 On the evaluation checklist

11 provided by the minority, the box for

12 compatibility and consistency is checked "no." 

13 Thus supporting this criteria being put

14 forward in the motion to remove.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The motion on

16 the floor is to remove sulfurous acid from the

17 National List. Are there further questions? 

18 Nick?

19 MR. MARAVELL: Zea, just to

20 clarify. Are you saying that the checklist

21 that we're looking at is the minority

22 position?
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1 MS. SONNABEND: Yes.

2 MR. MARAVELL: Could I hear from

3 the minority? Is that your understanding?

4 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. The minority

5 developed that information as part of the

6 deliberations in the Subcommittee, and there

7 were issues of compatibility in agricultural

8 systems, as outlined in the checklist. 

9 MR. BONDERA: I'm sorry. In

10 development of the --

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Colehour.

12 MR. BONDERA: I'm sorry, thank

13 you. In development of the checklist, which

14 went through the whole subcommittee, was

15 reviewed by the whole subcommittee and we

16 could have changed the checkboxes, upon

17 discussion, that was what was presented to the

18 Subcommittee and after the fact, it turns out

19 you're referring to minority or majority votes

20 that occurred after the checklist was

21 prepared.

22 It's not as if the checklist was
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1 prepared by a certain group of people after

2 the vote happened. So I just want to make

3 sure that this process is represented

4 accurately, which is that the checklist was

5 prepared, and I was responsible for preparing

6 the checklist, and it turns out that my vote

7 is in the minority.

8 But the checklist isn't

9 representative of the minority position per

10 se. It wasn't questioned or changed by

11 anybody who voted in the majority. So I think

12 we're getting very lost in process here. I'm

13 sorry, Zea. You added to that by saying

14 that's the minority opinion.

15 That's not accurate. It's the

16 Crop Subcommittee's position, and the

17 checklist that we, the Crop Subcommittee,

18 prepared. Yes, I took the lead on that, but

19 that doesn't mean it's my positions. Thank

20 you.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The motion on

22 the floor is to remove sulfurous acid from the
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1 National List. I sense we might be ready to

2 vote. Mac.

3 MR. STONE: No ma'am.

4 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

5 MR. AUSTIN: No.

6 DR. FULWIDER: No.

7 MS. SONNABEND: No.

8 DR. WALKER: No.

9 MR. MARAVELL: I abstain. I don't

10 quite understand what I'm voting on.

11 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

12 DR. TAYLOR: Yes.

13 MR. THICKE: No.

14 MS. BECK: No.

15 MS. FAVRE: No.

16 MR. DICKSON: No.

17 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: No.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The chair votes

19 no. 

20 (Pause.)

21 MR. STONE: I have three yes, 11

22 no's, one abstention, and even with the
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1 abstention, there are still ten votes

2 necessary, and we achieved 11. Motion fails.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. I

4 suggest we take a 15 minute break at this

5 point. Come back at quarter to 11:00. We are

6 running, I would say, depending on how the

7 following discussions go, I would say at least

8 half an hour behind our schedule. See you

9 back here at quarter to 11:00.

10 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

11 matter went off the record at 10:31 a.m. and

12 resumed at 10:46 a.m.)

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: If we could

14 take our seats please.

15 [TRUMPET PLAYING.]

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right. On

17 that wonderful note, I would like to move us

18 into this continuation of the Crop

19 Subcommittee, and right before we take up the

20 next set of materials, I would like to have

21 Deputy Administrator McEvoy introduce the

22 fourth of the new upcoming NOSB Board members. 
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1 I believe Paula is here in the room. Miles.

2 MR. McEVOY: Yeah. I have the

3 pleasure to introduce Paula Daniels, who's

4 been appointed to the National Organic

5 Standards Board starting in January of 2015. 

6 So welcome Paula. If you could introduce

7 yourself to the Board. Thank you.

8 MS. DANIELS: Hello, and thank you

9 for having me here. It would be a great

10 pleasure to be part of a Board that has such

11 musical talent in commencing its meetings. 

12 But I really am delighted to be here and be

13 part of this Board meeting.

14 It cannot go without notice that

15 there are about 60,000 Future Farmers of

16 America in Louisville, Kentucky today, and one

17 of the things that made me think about that in

18 relationship to this Board is that most of the

19 meetings that they're in are about marketing.

20 Then, you know, with all the

21 marketing meetings that they have and the

22 marketing plans that they're developing about
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1 agriculture, to have the National Organic

2 Standards Board meeting down the hall I think

3 is of interest.

4 A lot of people think of organic

5 in many ways. One way that they think of it

6 as a way to market or at least to help people

7 understand what is -- how the food is

8 produced. That is something for sure that

9 America cares about.

10 Given the fact that organic has

11 grown in the way that it has over the years,

12 people care about how their food is produced,

13 as you all know. What they don't know about

14 is what goes into the decision-making of what

15 makes something organic, a label which is

16 pretty highly trusted.

17 The fact that you're having these

18 discussions here and the way they're taking

19 place, and the discussions that take place

20 everywhere from the barns to the ballrooms

21 here are a part of democracy that I really

22 cherish.
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1 The ballroom discussion is only

2 one part of all of it, and it, you know, deals

3 with so much that people that are buying

4 organic and look at it as a label that helps

5 them understand what's happening. They don't

6 understand the discussions that are going on

7 in this room, but they're pretty significant,

8 and the struggle is valiant.

9 There's a quote that I have here,

10 that I just learned on Tuesday when I was in

11 Los Angeles, from the Mayor of Curitiba,

12 Brazil. "Better the grace of imperfection,

13 than perfection without grace." So the

14 struggle here, the devil in the details, I

15 think, is pretty important. The details show

16 quite a bit of deep philosophy at work, and

17 I'm privileged to be a part of it.

18 My background is that I'm with --

19 or had been, at least in terms of food policy,

20 with the Mayor's office, the Mayor of the City

21 of Los Angeles, and helped develop the Los

22 Angeles Food Policy Council, in which we were
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1 bringing together the different groups from

2 across the food systems, farmers that are in

3 production, people from the Farm Bureau,

4 people in retail, people who care about food

5 security, all of the people across that

6 spectrum, all of which have different points

7 of view, but all of whom are struggling pretty

8 valiantly towards the same thing, which is a

9 healthy food system, and that's what this

10 organic, National Organic Program, National

11 Organic Standards Board is about. It's a very

12 righteous struggle. 

13 And some have asked me how is it

14 that I come to this. I think you could say

15 maybe it came from starting the food policy

16 framework for the City of Los Angeles and

17 showing how an urban area hopefully can be a

18 leader in sustainable food production and

19 healthy food and good food for all, in a

20 region that produces quite a bit of it.

21 But I would say honestly, it came

22 to me probably from the time I was young, and
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1 the fact that my family was raised -- we're

2 from Hawaii, and my father grew up on a sugar

3 cane plantation. I'm part Native Hawaiian,

4 and agriculture is a deep part of our family

5 history.

6 This struggle is righteous. 

7 There's that word in Hawaii that Colehour

8 might know. Pono, which means righteousness,

9 integrity of action, and the motto of Hawaii

10 is something I just want to say hello to you

11 all with, because I think this is what this

12 struggle is about.

13 It is "Ua Mau ke Ea o ka Aina i ka

14 Pono." The life of the land is preserved in

15 righteousness. To me, that's what this

16 program is about. It's about the life of the

17 land, the sustainability of production

18 methods. "Ua Mau ke Ea o ka Aina i ka Pono."

19 Thank you for having me here, and I really

20 look forward to being part of this group.

21 (Applause.)

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, great. 
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1 Before we go back to the Crop Subcommittee --

2 well, part of the Crop Subcommittee, as chair,

3 let me just state the following from Robert's

4 Rules of Order No. 40. 

5 "By taking advantage of

6 parliamentary forms and methods, a small

7 minority can disrupt the business of a

8 deliberative assembly, having short sessions,"

9 which is what we have, and further that "using

10 parliamentary forms merely to obstruct

11 business, he or she should -- the chair should

12 rule them out of order or refuse to recognize

13 them."

14 So Robert's Rules has provisions

15 for some of the discussions that we're

16 struggling with over the last -- the

17 discussion of the last material. I enormously

18 respect Jay and all that he does, and I also

19 believe that there are clarifications that are

20 needed in the sunset process.

21 I think the discussion over the

22 last material and the discussion we had
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1 yesterday on sunset is sufficient to indicate

2 that there are things in the process that need

3 to be clarified.

4 So I would very much appreciate it

5 if for the next two substances that we have to

6 look at, if we could refrain from dealing with

7 the process. The same issues are there, in

8 effect, and we just don't need to hash them

9 out, belaboring an obvious point.

10 I would prefer it very much if we

11 could stick to a discussion of the substance

12 of the motion, which is the substance material

13 that we're looking at. Over to you, Zea.

14 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you. The

15 next material on our agenda is sodium

16 carbonate peroxyhydrate, which doesn't lend

17 itself to a concise set of initials, but maybe

18 SCP, if we have to. Lisa.

19 MS. BRINES: Thanks, Zea. The

20 listing for sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate is

21 currently included on the National List as a

22 synthetic substance at Section 205.601(a)(8). 
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1 It's listed as follows:

2 "Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate,

3 CAS No. 15630-89-4. Federal law restricts the

4 use of this substance in food crop production

5 to approved food uses identified on the

6 product label.

7 "The substance was added to the

8 National List in 2010 following a petition

9 from 2005, and in support of the review, there

10 are two technical reports available, one from

11 2006 and a newer edition from 2014." Thank

12 you.

13 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you, Lisa. 

14 Okay. This material is a combination of

15 hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate, and

16 it's primarily used in ponds, irrigation lines

17 and in rice paddies to control algae. A new

18 TR was commissioned in 2014 to address some of

19 the alternatives and the use patterns of it,

20 because it had only been newly registered for

21 use in rice at the time it was first added to

22 the National List.
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1 So there was not very much

2 previous experience with it, and we were

3 seeking in our first posting to get more

4 information on the subject, and also in the

5 TR. The TR did come up with some

6 alternatives, primarily from information from

7 other countries.

8 But of course the main alternative

9 in this country is the use of copper sulfate

10 or bluestone for control of algae in rice. We

11 received very little public comment directly

12 on the subject of the material, either for or

13 against. 

14 We received additional information

15 from the petitioner, which addresses some of

16 the issues around alternatives, and also gives

17 some more efficacy information and other

18 information which I'm sure you all had the

19 opportunity to read in your packet.

20 Then we received some information

21 reposted from the first time, which we

22 addressed in our summary, and then some people
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1 procedurally wanting to take it off the list

2 or to refer it back to Committee. 

3 We did receive no comments from

4 users. Although CCOF shows 34 clients have it

5 on our OSP and we urged them several times to

6 turn in comments, but I think people are

7 reluctant to comment, seeing that their

8 comments have not -- they don't see any

9 results from their comments in the past. So

10 I think that they are somewhat reluctant to

11 comment.

12 In any event, new information

13 beyond what is in the summary was not

14 presented that was not procedural, and I feel

15 that we would be ready to proceed, based on

16 the information that we have. So a motion has

17 been put on the floor, and let's see. I have

18 to go back to my other thing. 

19 The motion to remove, as we are

20 doing customarily, that based on our review,

21 the Subcommittee proposes removal of the

22 substance from the National List, based on the
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1 following criteria in the Organic Foods

2 Production Act, 7 U.S.C. 6158(m)(7), the

3 compatibility with system of sustainable

4 agriculture.

5 The majority of the Subcommittee

6 found no concerns regarding the continued

7 listing of sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate, but

8 feels that the whole NOSB needs to consider

9 and vote on each material. So this motion is

10 put forward by me and seconded by Harold.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Motion is on

12 the floor to remove whatever it is, carbonate

13 -- sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate. 

14 Discussion.

15 (No response.)

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No discussion

17 on this substance. We can move to vote on it. 

18 Is that correct? The first person will be

19 starting, Jay.

20 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

21 MR. AUSTIN: No.

22 DR. FULWIDER: No.
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1 MS. SONNABEND: No.

2 DR. WALKER: Yes.

3 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

4 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

5 DR. TAYLOR: Yes.

6 MR. THICKE: No.

7 MS. BECK: No.

8 MS. FAVRE: No.

9 MR. DICKSON: No.

10 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: No.

11 MR. STONE: No ma'am.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Chair votes no.

13 (Pause.)

14 MR. STONE: Five yes, ten no,

15 motion fails.

16 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you. Our

17 next material is aqueous potassium silicate,

18 which will be presented by Jay, but first Lisa

19 will tell us about it.

20 MS. BRINES: Thanks. There are

21 two listings for aqueous potassium silicate

22 that are under consideration under 205.601. 
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1 One listing at paragraph (e) as insecticides,

2 including acaracides or mite control, and one

3 listing under paragraph (i) as plant disease

4 control.

5 Both listings are identical and

6 read as follows: "Aqueous potassium silicate,

7 CAS No. 1312-76-1. The silica used in the

8 manufacture of potassium silicate must be

9 sourced from naturally occurring sand.

10 "The substance was added to the

11 National List in 2010 and there are two

12 technical reports available, one from the

13 original review in 2003, and a new report that

14 was developed in support of this sunset review

15 for 2014." Thank you.

16 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. I guess

17 this is somewhat repetitive, but anyway two

18 listings that the Subcommittee is looking at:

19 601(e) as insecticides, including acaracides

20 or mite control. Aqueous potassium silicate,

21 the silica used in the manufacture of

22 potassium silicate must be sourced from
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1 naturally-occurring sand, and 601(i), as a

2 plant disease control. I won't read the rest

3 of that.

4 Summary overview here is uses as

5 insecticide, acaracide and plant disease

6 control listings. We've already mentioned

7 technical reports in 2003 and 2014. 

8 Petitioned originally in 2006. Passed NOSB

9 actions. The NOSB review and recommendation

10 for addition to the National List in 2007.

11 Regulatory background. Proposed

12 rule, including justification, was published

13 in '09, and added to the National List in

14 2010. So the sunset date is the end of next

15 year.

16 We received some public comments. 

17 One grower and CCOF, so you did get one grower

18 out there. We got -- we received some in

19 opposition to the renewed listing, three

20 organizations and five individuals. Public

21 comments that came in included these topics. 

22 When APS enters the soil from plant treatment,
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1 it is indistinguishable from silicates already

2 present in the ground.

3 APS is used as a foliar

4 application not for roots. Management systems

5 can be used to build the silicate in the soil,

6 to improve the plant's resistance to disease

7 and reducing the likelihood of needing a

8 pesticide treatment.

9 However, when an infestation

10 occurs and a treatment is required, APS should

11 be an available option for organic growers. 

12 Information is needed on accumulation of

13 silica in plants. International standards do

14 not allow aqueous potassium silicate in crop

15 production. Organic methods and soil

16 conservation make its use unnecessary.

17 The majority opinion held that, as

18 Zea already stated, the Crop Subcommittee

19 believes that the full Board should have an

20 opportunity to vote, and if the motion to

21 remove fails to receive a majority, the motion

22 will still be put forward to the full Board
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1 for review.

2 The motion to remove is voted by

3 the full Board and needs to receive a two4 thirds majority. The minority position, which

5 we've heard previously, thought that this

6 review process could be conducted by the

7 Subcommittee and reported to the full Board,

8 and remain on the Board with the consent of

9 the chair.

10 The CS proposal, based on the

11 Subcommittee's review, the Subcommittee

12 proposes removal of this substance from the

13 National List, based on OPFA criteria, 7

14 U.S.C. 6158(m)(7), which is a compatibility

15 criterion, and let's see.

16 Commenters supporting relisting of

17 APS include one company, the manufacturer. 

18 Commenters opposing relisting, one

19 organization. Commenters requesting that APS

20 be returned to subcommittee, based on the

21 process failures. 

22 There's a risk -- this is a
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1 summary of the comments that came in. Risks

2 of exposure are negligible. APS is a non3 toxic chemical. Correction was suggested to

4 the TR. Silicon reduces the availability of

5 toxic elements such as magnesium, iron and

6 aluminum.

7 Foliar application is superior to

8 silica soil amendment for disease control. 

9 Those opposing the relisting commented initial

10 approval was based on insufficient review,

11 specific use. The fertilized disease control

12 insecticide should be clarified. Alternatives

13 are available. Information is needed on

14 accumulation of silicon plants. International

15 standards do not allow aqueous potassium

16 silicate in crop production.

17 You know, we're seeing the

18 comments on returning to committee as you've

19 seen in the other materials, and this explains

20 the reasoning, which we've already been

21 through with the previous materials. Thank

22 you.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Jay. 

2 Question. Questions on the -- discussion on

3 the motion, sorry.

4 (No response.)

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No discussion

6 on the motion? Are we ready for the question? 

7 Yes. I believe on this one, we would start

8 with Harold.

9 MR. AUSTIN: No.

10 DR. FULWIDER: No.

11 MS. SONNABEND: No.

12 DR. WALKER: Yes.

13 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

14 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

15 DR. TAYLOR: Yes.

16 MR. THICKE: Yes.

17 MS. BECK: No.

18 MS. FAVRE: No.

19 MR. DICKSON: No.

20 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: No.

21 MR. STONE: No ma'am.

22 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The chair votes

2 no. 

3 (Pause.)

4 MR. STONE: Six yes, nine no,

5 motion fails.

6 MS. SONNABEND: Okay. We're ready

7 to proceed to the 2016 sunset materials. The

8 first one is ferric phosphate, and Lisa will

9 describe it and then Carmela will present.

10 MS. BRINES: Thanks. The listing

11 for ferric phosphate currently appears on

12 Section 205.601 of the National List as a

13 synthetic substance under paragraph (h). The

14 listing reads as "Slug or snail bait, ferric

15 phosphate, CAS No. 10045-86-0. The substance

16 was added to the National List in 2006,

17 following a petition from 2003.

18 "There are three technical reports

19 available in support of this substance, from

20 2004, 2010 and a supplemental TR from 2012." 

21 Thanks.

22 MS. BECK: So this is the first of
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1 two meetings to request information to support

2 or oppose the continued allowance on the

3 National List for ferric phosphate. On

4 January 7th, 2014, the Subcommittee determined

5 that no TR was needed because there had been

6 -- there was no new information available.

7 There were 47 public comments in

8 favor of delisting. The vast majority of the

9 commenters submitted a form letter in support

10 of removal. There were five public comments

11 in favor of relisting. OMRI submitted a

12 letter, indicating that they had 17 registered

13 products with ferric phosphate.

14 The arguments in favor of

15 delisting include the following. There was

16 opposition to relisting because ferric

17 phosphate alone is not essential because it is

18 not effective, and ferric phosphate in

19 combination with EDTA poses risks to soil

20 organisms and earth worms. It uses highly

21 toxic materials in manufacture, and is not

22 compatible with organic agriculture. 
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1 The arguments in support of

2 relisting include the following: Ferric

3 phosphate meets the three OFPA criteria. It's

4 not harmful to human health or the

5 environment. It's consistent with organic

6 farming and it's essential for the growers.

7 Organic farmers rely on ferric

8 phosphate-based snail and slug baits as an

9 effective pest management material, and no

10 less environmentally harmful alternatives

11 exist. CCOF also made mention of having

12 completed a literature -- having reviewed the

13 literature summaries that were cited in the

14 formal recommendation from the NOSB to the NOP

15 on a petition to remove ferric phosphate on

16 10/16/2012, and found that there was no

17 compelling evidence that EDTA causes

18 significant harm to earth worms.

19 Also, the last comment was that

20 the review of inerts will be addressed by the

21 Inerts Working Group. So that concludes my

22 summary of the comments.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea, you want

2 to take questions on this?

3 MS. SONNABEND: I thought you were

4 taking questions.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. 

6 Discussion, input on this material? This is

7 the first time we've discussed it at the Board

8 level. Input from anyone? Jay.

9 MR. FELDMAN: I'd just like to

10 make a suggestion to the Crop Subcommittee

11 that it consider reviewing the EDTA in the

12 context of its review of this material, as a

13 way of sending a message that the Board is

14 serious about the Inerts review, and because

15 the manufacturer has indicated that they are

16 already moving to an alternative material.

17 So I think it's a confluence of

18 factors that enable the Board to both make a

19 statement, that this is an important review in

20 terms of a material review, and at the same

21 time, work with the manufacturer to verify

22 that the timing would work for them.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

2 discussion, comments, questions? Okay. Move

3 to the next material.

4 MS. SONNABEND: Okay, thank you. 

5 Our next one is hydrogen chloride for

6 cottonseed delinting, which will be presented

7 by John, after Lisa tells us about it.

8 MS. BRINES: Thanks, Zea. The

9 current listing for hydrogen chloride appears

10 on Section 205.601 of the National List under

11 paragraph (n). It's listed as seed

12 preparations, hydrogen chloride, CAS No. 7647-

13 01-0, for delinting cottonseed for planting.

14 "This substance was added to the

15 National List in 2006, following a petition

16 from 2002. There are two technical reports

17 available, one from 2003 and a new limited

18 scope technical report that was commissioned

19 for this sunset review." Thank you.

20 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: So this is the

21 first, as with the prior material, is the

22 first meeting where this is being discussed,
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1 first posting. It will be revisited at the

2 next meeting. On this posting, there were

3 roughly 60 or so comments, 50 or so from

4 public interest groups and those that they

5 inspire.

6 Of the remaining, in those there

7 were several substantive comments. Of the

8 remaining ten, a lot of somewhat more

9 technically relevant comments that was very

10 helpful from both public interest groups as

11 well as industry members, including some

12 farmers.

13 They generally all included fair

14 assessments about the viability of mechanical

15 alternatives at a commercial scale at the

16 moment, which appears to be not quite ready

17 for commercial use, but does show some genuine

18 promise.

19 All agreed on the hazards of the

20 substance, and all agreed that mechanical

21 delinting would be preferable when it does

22 reach a commercially viable scale. Comments
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1 from those directly involved with cotton

2 production or processing affirm the need for

3 further research and development of mechanical

4 methods and the Subcommittee strongly urges

5 those involved with those to swiftly find a

6 viable, commercial-scale process.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Questions of

8 John on this material, discussion? Anybody? 

9 Any other input? Yeah, Jay.

10 MR. FELDMAN: Just one quick

11 thing. I think this is a classic example of

12 a material that needs to be subject to a very

13 rigorous sunset process, because everybody

14 agrees it's hazardous. Everyone wants to move

15 toward an alternative, but the incentives just

16 aren't quite there. A rigorous process helps

17 incentivize the alternatives.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: John.

19 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: So I was

20 fortunate enough, when I was doing inspections

21 years ago, to be able to a fair number of

22 cotton inspections in different parts of the
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1 country, and was trained in cotton gin

2 processing and organic cotton gin processing.

3 When I was -- prior to getting

4 into the organic space, I did a lot of

5 research on, oddly enough, pesticide use, and

6 cotton is one of the big -- conventional

7 cotton is one of the big users of conventional

8 ag-chemicals.

9 I actually used some information

10 from Beyond Pesticides at that time. Thank

11 you for that, Jay and company. So when I got

12 into the organic space of organic cotton,

13 there's just -- there's not that much of it. 

14 So in my mind, you know, anything

15 that can facilitate organic cotton production

16 is going to make a huge footprint on the

17 overall pesticide load in the environment,

18 certainly in North America, and I would also

19 argue in other countries. 

20 China, for example, has a

21 tremendous cotton industry. So if we can get

22 these -- if we can get these other methods in
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1 place, I think that would serve everyone's

2 best interests.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nick.

4 MR. MARAVELL: Just an

5 observation, Madam Chair. This to me is an

6 excellent example of why annotation at sunset

7 can sometimes be a very reasonable policy

8 route, and I think everybody agrees with what

9 John just said, and when alternatives become

10 available, this would be phased out. That

11 could be handled in an annotation, such that

12 this is permitted in the event that

13 commercially viable alternatives are not

14 available.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

16 Other comments, questions. Zea.

17 MS. SONNABEND: I think that

18 concludes the section on the Crop

19 Subcommittee. Thank you, Madam Chair.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Zea. 

21 What we need to move to next will be to take

22 up the motion from yesterday on tragacanth
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1 gum. So I turn this over to Harold, Chair of

2 the Handling Subcommittee. Jay is trying to

3 pass around some VerMints, so I would like

4 this to be noted.

5 Handling Subcommittee -- Tragacanth Gum

6 MR. AUSTIN: All right. At this

7 time, the Handling Subcommittee would take and

8 recall our motion that was temporarily tabled

9 yesterday, to allow the Board to have time to

10 review the additional information that we were

11 given.

12 The motion before us is a seconded

13 motion, and it is to remove tragacanth gum

14 from 205.606(x). I don't believe we need to

15 redo Lisa's part at this time, since we've

16 already covered that. So at this point, I'm

17 going to turn it over to Joe as the lead on

18 this. Joe, any further commentary from

19 yesterday?

20 MR. DICKSON: I don't have any

21 further comments beyond what I said yesterday. 

22 Do you want to check in with Nick Maravell,
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1 who had asked that we table the voting, so

2 that he'd have a chance to read the letter

3 from the producer of the product in question

4 that's being passed around the table.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nick.

6 MR. MARAVELL: Yes. I have no

7 objections to keeping this on the list, having

8 reviewed the letter. I just hope one day, if

9 I'm the only user of a product, that this

10 Board will show the same compassion to me.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jay.

12 MR. FELDMAN: I have a question,

13 maybe for the program, on how the untimely

14 ruling works in a case like this. Is this new

15 information that is considered untimely or

16 not? How does that work, because this is

17 obviously -- Joe, this isn't information that

18 was considered by the Subcommittee, because it

19 wasn't available at the time.

20 And I was thinking that in a

21 perfect world, the Subcommittee would take

22 this information and evaluate what VerMint is
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1 saying, relative to other alternative

2 materials in that type of product. That's

3 under the essentiality clause, which you

4 haven't really done, or have you?

5 MR. DICKSON: Well to clarify, I

6 mean there are two public comments. I mean

7 one was QAI at the podium, testifying

8 directly, that one of their certified clients

9 was dependent on the substance, and that to me

10 alone is sufficient to warrant the

11 essentiality of this.

12 The letter that we have, which was

13 submitted outside of the written comment

14 period, is supplemental to that, but I don't

15 believe the whole thing rests on this letter.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I would like to

17 ask Miles, however, for clarification as

18 raised by Jay, because the sunset does say,

19 has this phrase that information would be

20 considered untimely for purposes of sunset

21 review if it comes in after the public comment

22 period is finished.
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1 MR. McEVOY: Well, I think that

2 refers to if the information that comes in

3 would substantially change. If you wanted to

4 do something completely different, then there

5 are mechanisms in place, where you could do

6 those completely different things by

7 petitioning for either addition or removal or

8 changes to the annotation.

9 So any new information that comes

10 in that would -- there are many mechanisms

11 that the public and the Board can utilize to

12 continue to have discussions on a particular

13 material. The sunset process has a certain

14 timeliness that needs to be maintained, in

15 order for the process to work, because of the

16 deadline of the sunset date.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea.

18 MS. SONNABEND: I perceive the

19 untimely clause to be pretty much what Miles

20 said, information that would necessitate our

21 changing the motion or having to do a lot more

22 research on some TR question or something like
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1 that.

2 But since input that is designed

3 to influence our opinion to vote yes or no is

4 not necessarily untimely, because we can still

5 make up our own minds to vote yes or no on the

6 motion on the floor.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold.

8 MR. AUSTIN: I would just agree

9 with what Zea had just said. That was kind of

10 where I was going to go with it too. I don't

11 think it brought information that was going to

12 have to get referred back to the Subcommittee

13 to do extensive research in looking at this

14 material, based off of this one written

15 comment that was given.

16 It just, I think, substantiated

17 the comment by QAI. So it gave us better

18 clarification and a little more definition was

19 primarily all of that. But I would use it as

20 an example, as we look ahead to the spring and

21 the fall meetings next year, that the need for

22 all of the stakeholders to take and be
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1 diligent in paying attention to the materials

2 that are up for sunset review, and getting

3 their commentary, both written and public oral

4 comment, get that in and get signed up for the

5 oral testimony.

6 But be diligent on what's on the

7 agenda and what's looming on the horizon,

8 because in the future, we probably won't have

9 time to take something up like this. This we

10 did. We had the time. But if we were to get

11 35 of these, I would probably say that we

12 probably wouldn't look at them.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nick.

14 MR. MARAVELL: Yeah. I'd just

15 like to emphasize Harold's comment, because

16 the impression that I got from talking with

17 Joe was that, you know, this was something

18 that was looked at in the Subcommittee, but

19 there was a limit to how deeply it was looked

20 at, because there seemed to be no apparent

21 interest in continuing it.

22 So we need to hear from the
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1 industry, so that you know, we can do our job.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Ready for the

3 question? I think we are. The first person

4 to start this is Wendy.

5 DR. FULWIDER: No.

6 MS. SONNABEND: No.

7 DR. WALKER: No.

8 MR. MARAVELL: No.

9 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

10 DR. TAYLOR: Yes.

11 MR. THICKE: No.

12 MS. BECK: No.

13 MS. FAVRE: No.

14 MR. DICKSON: No.

15 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: No.

16 MR. STONE: No ma'am.

17 MR. FELDMAN: I like VerMints. 

18 Yes.

19 MR. AUSTIN: No.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The chair votes

21 no.

22 (Pause.)
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1 MR. STONE: Three yes, 12 no,

2 motion fails. 

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: It is 11:30 and

4 I think that brings us to the end of the

5 Handling Subcommittee report, all of our final

6 votes, and so the afternoon, we will have NOSB

7 officer elections and the work plans will be

8 being discussed, etcetera.

9 So we will reconvene back here at

10 one o'clock, at one o'clock. It says 1:15 on

11 the agenda, but I suggest we could do it one

12 o'clock. Okay. You can go eat now.

13 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

14 matter went off the record at 11:30 a.m.)

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

2 1:09 p.m.

3 Election of Officers

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Ladies and

5 gentlemen, the first item on the agenda is the

6 election of officers. We will entertain a

7 motion for Chair. 

8 MR. MARAVELL: I nominate Jean. 

9 Well, let me see if I can read that. Jean

10 Richardson. 

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Is there a

12 second for the nomination of me?

13 MR. AUSTIN: I second it.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seconded by

15 Harold and Jay. Are there any other

16 nominations to be put up for the office of

17 Chair? Are there any other nominations for

18 the office of Chair? 

19 (No response.)

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Mr. Secretary.

21 MR. STONE: I would suggest while

22 I'm enjoying some dark chocolate that we --
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1 Jean be named as a Chair by acclamation.

2 DR. WALKER: Second.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: There being no

4 objection to me continuing on to serve as

5 Chair for a year, it's recorded and thank you

6 very much. I really appreciate your support,

7 and I hope to do a good job and I will try to

8 work with everyone as a team on an equal basis

9 and I appreciate your input any time, with any

10 kind of complaints or of course praises, any

11 time you feel like doing so.

12 (Applause.)

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next

14 officer is the office of Vice Chair. Are

15 there any nominations? Harold.

16 MR. AUSTIN: I nominate Tracy.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Is there a

18 second?

19 DR. WALKER: Second.

20 MR. MARAVELL: I second.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nominated by

22 Harold, seconded by both Calvin and Nick. Are
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1 there any other nominations for Vice Chair? 

2 Are there any other nominations for Vice

3 Chair?

4 (No response.)

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Hearing none,

6 Mr. Secretary?

7 MR. STONE: Madam Chair, with one

8 nomination Ms. Favre nominated as Vice Chair,

9 I declare she be appointed by acclamation.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Good luck,

11 Tracy. You have to follow John.

12 (Applause.)

13 MS. FAVRE: I appreciate that vote

14 of confidence. Thank you.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The third

16 office that we have to have a nomination for

17 is that of Secretary. Are there any

18 nominations for Secretary? Nick.

19 MR. MARAVELL: I nominate Harold.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold has been

21 nominated. Second?

22 MS. SONNABEND: Second.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seconded by

2 Zea. Are there any other nominations for

3 Secretary? Jennifer.

4 DR. TAYLOR: I nominate Colehour.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Colehour. Is

6 there a second for nominating Colehour for the

7 office of Secretary?

8 MS. FAVRE: I second the

9 nomination.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Been nominated

11 and seconded by Tracy. Are there any other

12 nominations for Secretary? Are there any

13 other nominations for Secretary? I would ask

14 -- Calvin, sorry.

15 DR. WALKER: Is this for the

16 Secretary of Agriculture?

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Secretary of

18 the NOSB. This should be done by secret

19 ballot. The Secretary is distributing a green

20 card. 

21 Please write the name of the

22 person that you would like for Secretary on
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1 that card. Those cards should then be

2 returned to the Secretary. The Secretary and

3 Chair will tally them and announce the votes.

4 The actual total number is not

5 announced, but simply who is the winner of

6 that illustrious position.

7 (Pause.)

8 MR. STONE: Harold will be the

9 next Secretary of the NOSB for the next term,

10 two terms. Thank you.

11 (Applause.)

12 Subcommittee Work Plans

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next item

14 on -- congratulations, Harold. The next item

15 on the agenda is the Work Plans of the

16 Subcommittees. Shall I put those up? Well,

17 it still says "work plans" on this agenda. Do

18 you want to talk about the change of

19 terminology?

20 MR. McEVOY: Yeah. The NOSB has

21 had the term work plans that have been used

22 for a long period of time, in terms of what
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1 the topics are that they're working on for the

2 upcoming year or the upcoming semester.

3 The term "work plan" within the

4 Department of Agriculture is used for moving

5 rulemaking and guidance documents through

6 clearance. So we are suggesting that in order

7 to not get people all excited within the

8 Department of Agriculture, that we have the

9 NOSB work be considered not a work plan but

10 some other word that expresses the topics that

11 they're going to be working on in the upcoming

12 semester.

13 So we've thrown out a few

14 different terms. We thought agenda items. 

15 I've heard syllabus, topics. Work plan item,

16 yeah. 

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We could have a

18 competition.

19 MR. McEVOY: So that -- we're just

20 suggesting a different name, so that we can

21 keep the work of the NOSB and the agenda items

22 that the NOSB's working on separate from any
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1 departmental action. 

2 MS. ARSENAULT: Miles, may I add

3 that we plan on posting these on the website?

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. So first

5 is Carmela. You want to report on your

6 Committee's work plan?

7 MS. BECK: So our work plan is to

8 bring forth the discussion document and turn

9 it into a proposal for spring 2015. Okay. 

10 That's all we have at this point.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh. Anything

12 else you want to say?

13 (Off mic comments.)

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Are there any

15 other topics that other members of the Board

16 would like to think of being added to the

17 CACS, whatever it's called, work plan agenda

18 I'll use, or work agenda I'll use? Are there

19 anything else, a syllabus? Yeah, Mac.

20 MR. STONE: I can't remember what

21 it is, but there was one, I think it was in

22 Betsy's presentation, maybe Miles, something
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1 during the USDA that came up. They thought it

2 was something that CACS could work on. But at

3 this moment, it plumb evades me.

4 MR. McEVOY: Yeah. We have

5 another item that we'd like the CACS to work

6 on, in terms of peer review, the National

7 Organic Program accreditation. This is a

8 requirement under the Organic Foods Production

9 Act, and also within the USDA organic

10 regulations.

11 So we have to -- we have a draft

12 process that we've developed, in terms of how

13 we would implement this. Our plan would be to

14 send the draft process to the National Organic

15 Standards Board. Certification and

16 Accreditation Subcommittee is the appropriate

17 subcommittee that should take a look at this,

18 and get their input for discussion on the

19 public agenda for spring 2015.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Are there any

21 other additions or comments you have for

22 Carmela?
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1 (No response.)

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. The next

3 syllabus item is from the Crops Subcommittee. 

4 Zea.

5 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you. We

6 have quite a full list coming up here, as 2017

7 sunsets will start to be presented. But first

8 we have several new petitions, some of which

9 have -- are not that new, but are still

10 wending their way through the process.

11 There are four we expect to have

12 on our spring agenda. Laminarin, which you

13 recall was discussed last time, and it was

14 decided to send it for a TR. Exhaust gas. 

15 Allyl isothiocyanate and calcium sulfate,

16 which as you might know is the same as gypsum,

17 but it's being petitioned for a new -- from a

18 new source.

19 And then we have one new petition,

20 3-decene-2-1, which probably won't be ready in

21 time for our next agenda, but we will start

22 the process of discussing it and requesting a
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1 TR in the next semester. Undoubtedly, we'll

2 have another inerts update.

3 We probably will have one at every

4 meeting where we see where we have gone

5 between now and then in the inerts review

6 process, and there will be a further

7 discussion document on the contamination

8 issues, as we move those issues along.

9 I'm not going to read all the 2017

10 sunsets, but we have, I don't know, 58, a

11 certain number in that ball park that will be

12 coming about maybe 10 or 12 of them are having

13 TRs done. So if the TRs aren't done in time,

14 they may not make it for summary to the next

15 agenda.

16 But I suspect the bulk of them

17 will, and the ones we didn't get TRs on will

18 also be summarized at the next meeting. And

19 that is our agenda, syllabus, whatever.

20 (Off mic comments.)

21 MS. SONNABEND: Oh, I would like

22 to mention one other brief thing. Miles and
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1 I had a discussion about -- I didn't go into

2 this right at this meeting, but the sodium

3 carbonate peroxy-hydrate, which just got

4 renewed. It has an annotation on it that's

5 pointless. It has no information and there's

6 no incentive for anyone to petition to remove

7 it.

8 So we would be eagerly awaiting

9 any new policy on how to change an annotation

10 without a petition, and that is a strong

11 candidate to be changed early. So I don't

12 know if that falls back to the Crops

13 Subcommittee after the whatever other

14 committee's dealing with it, but I would like

15 us to take that up.

16 MR. McEVOY: Yeah. I think that

17 the concept of changing annotations during

18 sunset, that that should be taken up by the

19 policy development subcommittee, in terms of

20 the process of how that could occur.

21 MS. SONNABEND: But possibly once

22 the process is in place, it will be something
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1 that Crops would then take up, right?

2 MR. McEVOY: Sure.

3 MS. SONNABEND: For that specific

4 one.

5 MR. McEVOY: Okay.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea, I have to

7 tell you that for the record, you have to read

8 them all. You have to read all your

9 substances, because Miles said so.

10 (Off mic comments.)

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: This way, it

12 will be in the written record.

13 MS. SONNABEND: They're in

14 writing, though. The written record can't be

15 handed to the other written record, and

16 Harold's going to have to read all his too?

17 MR. McEVOY: We could have Lisa

18 Brines read them into the record if you'd

19 prefer.

20 MR. MARAVELL: You know in

21 Congress, you know, they give unanimous

22 consent to read documents into the record. I
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1 mean could we do that?

2 MR. McEVOY: Okay. We'll have it

3 -- somehow, there will be a record that these

4 are the substances that are up for sunset

5 review starting in the spring of 2017, 2015.

6 MS. SONNABEND: I think it's

7 already been posted in your sunset time line,

8 where you did have lists.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: It is out

10 there. All right. Any discussion of the

11 syllabus for the Crops Subcommittee that's

12 been presented? Any questions of Zea? Any

13 other items that you want to add to her

14 agenda?

15 MR. McEVOY: At your own risk.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: At your own

17 risk, right. Okay. So then we turn to the

18 syllabus for the Handling Subcommittee,

19 Harold.

20 MR. AUSTIN: Okay. For the spring

21 semester agenda items for the Handling

22 Subcommittee, the substances that we will be
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1 working on as far as proposals, whole algal

2 flour, ammonium hydroxide, and I would like to

3 just clarify. Whole algal flour has been

4 referred back to the Subcommittee to continue

5 to work on, along with glycerine.

6 So those two have been referred

7 back, and we will continue to work on those

8 and hopefully come out in the spring. Along

9 with those, we will have ammonium hydroxide,

10 which is a boiler water additive. We will

11 have polyalkaline glycol monobutyl ether, from

12 now on hence known as PGME. 

13 Triethyl citrate, sodium lactate

14 and potassium lactate. We will also have the

15 ten 2016 sunset materials, which were

16 previously discussed during yesterday's

17 presentation. So those are all listed for the

18 record there, as well as 104 2017 sunset

19 materials, which have also been previously

20 listed in the record, so that there is a

21 reference point if anybody wants to look at

22 exactly what those are.
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1 It's just a minor workload that

2 we've got in front of us. Along with all of

3 that, we will continue to work in the

4 ancillary substances, and back in the Handling

5 Subcommittee we will then begin to work on a

6 discussion document for BPA. That's it, short

7 and sweet. Not much going on this next year.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So are there

9 any other things people would like to suggest

10 get added to the Handling Subcommittee

11 syllabus, or any questions of Harold with

12 regard to syllabus? Zea.

13 MS. SONNABEND: Well, I'm very

14 much hoping that we will get the opportunity

15 to evaluate BPA and packaging, as Miles has

16 told us. A memo should be forthcoming.

17 MR. McEVOY: Yes. We support it

18 being on the agenda for the next semester. We

19 do have a memo that you should be receiving

20 very shortly, to provide some parameters for

21 that work.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Anything else
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1 for this subcommittee? Okay. So thank you,

2 Harold, for the presentation. The next one,

3 Livestock Subcommittee, Tracy.

4 MS. FAVRE: Thank you, Madam. We

5 have the ever-present, ever-painful subject of

6 methionine on our spring work plan, syllabus,

7 whatever. Acidified sodium chloride, excuse

8 me, aluminum sulfate, sodium bisulfate, zinc

9 sulfate, all as petitioned materials.

10 We have, I believe it's 42 or 43

11 2017 sunset materials, and that's all that we

12 currently have on our work schedule, with the

13 possibility that should the aquaculture draft 

14 standards come out, those might be reactivated

15 within our Subcommittee. Thank you.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any questions

17 of Tracy or any additions you might suggest

18 for her working agenda? Discussion. Mac.

19 MR. STONE: So is aquaculture on

20 there, so that if we wrap up your bread crumb

21 trail document and have it in there, so if the

22 rules are out let's kind of officially have it
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1 on there?

2 MS. FAVRE: Yes, thank you. 

3 That's an oversight on my part. I should have

4 mentioned that. We will actually have that

5 finalized for the spring meeting.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So we should

7 add -- to that agenda, we should add the

8 aquaculture discussion document to the spring

9 agenda? Yeah Francis.

10 MR. THICKE: Since the animal

11 welfare standards are going to be coming on

12 real soon, maybe we need to be thinking that

13 needs to be on at some point.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I think you're

15 joking, right? I hope he's joking. Harold,

16 you look like you have something to say?

17 MR. AUSTIN: A general statement

18 Tracy, not as specifically for Livestock. But

19 I wanted to clarify back for our Handling, and

20 then I'll do it now for here, is that the 2016

21 sunset materials, this will be their second

22 and final listing, and the 2017, this will be
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1 their first listing for public commentary when

2 they come out in the spring. Just for

3 clarification onto the record.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

5 Anything else for Livestock? Okay. The next

6 subcommittee is Materials GMO Ad Hoc. Zea?

7 DR. WALKER: Thank you. Thank you

8 Madam Chair.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I'm sorry,

10 Calvin. My apologies.

11 DR. WALKER: No problem. We have

12 three items. One will be seed purity from

13 GMO. We are looking at bringing a report back

14 to this august body at our next biannual

15 meeting. The second topic will deal with

16 excluded method terminology. 

17 We were looking at a discussion

18 document. However, we got word yesterday that

19 that may not be the best way, that we may have

20 look at something in terms of a policy memo or

21 instruction to certifiers, and we'll be

22 getting with the program to see what the best
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1 method to bring the document forward to the

2 public.

3 Third item deals with prevention

4 strategies, guidance for excluded methods in

5 crops and animals, and that Francis Thicke and

6 I will be working on that particular document. 

7 We apologize for not getting it out for this

8 particular round, but we hope to have it for

9 the spring. That concludes the three that we

10 have.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you,

12 Calvin. Are there any other suggestions for

13 additions or comments, discussion on the items

14 that you see on his agenda? Yes, Nick.

15 MR. MARAVELL: Calvin, we're

16 combining -- okay, exclusion methods in Crops

17 and Handling all at once, right, in the same,

18 and there are no topics for Livestock; is that

19 correct, under that?

20 DR. WALKER: That's correct.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. The next

22 subcommittee is here back again. You should
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1 all be pleased to see, we have back the Policy

2 Development Subcommittee, and we have two

3 items that are approved to be on our agendas

4 for the spring semester.

5 We have -- we'll be getting back

6 the policy and procedure manuals, which would

7 be updated and reorganized, and the NOP and

8 the NOSB will collaborate on this document. 

9 It will go out for public comment as before,

10 and we will work on that really hard this

11 spring semester.

12 The other item, which we have all

13 recognize we need to reconsider is a work

14 agenda item, which will deal with annotations. 

15 That too will be on our agenda to be worked on

16 fast as we can do, since we can see that it's

17 something that's really needed.

18 I am obviously stepping down as

19 the chair of the PDS, since I'm Chair of the

20 NOSB. So a new chair will be designated

21 within the next couple of weeks. So that

22 committee will be able to officially meet to
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1 take up its work very soon. Questions? Mac.

2 MR. STONE: So just in that little

3 chart here, it says "Best Practices and Use of

4 Annotations in Proposals," and but that's also

5 sunset? Is that two separate items sort of?

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well, let me

7 explain this one. Several months ago, when

8 there was no PDS subcommittee, Harold and one

9 of his other -- NCS. He's on the CACS

10 Committee, he was concerned that there was a

11 lack of annotations and that they were

12 necessary.

13 Therefore, he began to propose an

14 annotation working agenda item in CACS, that

15 as soon as we were able to have the Policy

16 Subcommittee back again. Therefore, we've

17 moved some of the proposed -- the proposed

18 document that Harold had begun developing over

19 to the subcommittee, the Policy Subcommittee. 

20 So all aspects of annotations will

21 be being looked at at the same time, and it's

22 what will be taking place. Thank you. Any
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1 other questions? Yes, Jennifer.

2 DR. TAYLOR: Would we want to

3 address here something about how to focus on

4 or address the comments such as the Vitamint

5 comment that was provided to us today on the

6 floor? How to address this during the

7 meeting? Wasn't that a topic that we said

8 that we would have through the Policy

9 Development Subcommittee, how to address the

10 new information that comes in from the floor?

11 MR. MARAVELL: Timeliness of

12 information, as in the VerMints.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh, timeliness

14 of information.

15 DR. TAYLOR: Timeliness. Is that

16 a topic that needs to be listed as a -- 

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: How do people

18 feel about a timeliness? You mean timeliness

19 of information coming in as part of the sunset

20 process?

21 DR. TAYLOR: Yeah.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yeah. Is that
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1 -- that's what the intent is of your

2 suggestion? Would that be something that we

3 would be working on, PDS folks, as part of our

4 general revisions of the PBM? Mac, what do

5 you think?

6 MR. STONE: I think that's the

7 logical place to do that. We obviously it's

8 happening at the same time that we're trying

9 to discuss it. So I'll use that as the

10 launching pad to I think all of us in

11 committee work and the audience, to help us to

12 get the word out on these sunset materials,

13 Harold, to be sure that especially this long

14 list and this first reading.

15 We heard from certifiers that, you

16 know, their clients don't necessarily

17 recognize the names that we're using. So

18 maybe in some of our proposals that go out in,

19 it's probably February, Michelle, whenever

20 those go out, that we use common names and do

21 all we can to get the word out and urge the

22 audience, the groups in the audience, to help
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1 us get that word out. It should. I think

2 that should be part of that Policy Committee.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other

4 questions, comments on Policy Subcommittee? 

5 (No response.)

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. So that

7 concludes that section of our agenda items. 

8 That's what we're calling it, yes. Got

9 something you want to say?

10 Subcommittee Assignments

11 MR. McEVOY: So the other thing

12 that happens after the fall meeting is with

13 the new members coming on and members leaving

14 is the subcommittee assignments change, and

15 new people get assigned to subcommittees. So

16 I would ask the Chair to maybe discuss how

17 that process is going to work from -- during

18 this transition time?

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes. During

20 the transition time, what happens is that the

21 positions, the officer positions take place

22 immediately, and the past chairs, etcetera,
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1 become known as acting. So we now have an

2 acting secretary and a real secretary, as the

3 way the PPM is written, for example, and an

4 acting chair and real -- a vice chair and a

5 real one over there.

6 So it's a little bit cumbersome. 

7 Actually, it's some of the sorts of things I

8 might change when we're working on this PPM. 

9 So they -- so they will -- so both vice chairs

10 and secretaries will be functioning as though

11 -- on all the subcommittees, on all the usual

12 committee work that they do right away.

13 Then within 30 days, the

14 subcommittees themselves will be restructured,

15 based on discussion amongst the officers and

16 amongst the present chairs. During that same

17 period of time, we will be determining, based

18 on the qualifications of the incoming four

19 members, which subcommittees they should be

20 asked to serve on, and that's normally done at

21 the Chair's discretion, so to speak. 

22 But certainly I would be doing it
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1 in consultation with everybody, to be sure we

2 get them put in the right place, to be sure

3 they get all that work, for example, in the

4 Handling Subcommittee where we need people.

5 That will all take place within 30

6 days, so that by the time we get to the time,

7 the period when the new Board members take up

8 their position formally on the Board, that's

9 what, January the 24th I believe it is, 24th. 

10 By that time, they'll know which

11 subcommittees they're on. They'll have done

12 their homework and be ready to go on our

13 conference calls. So that's what we will be

14 doing during this transition time. Is there

15 anything else you wanted me to comment on

16 that? We will be specifically following the

17 PPM procedures on all this. 

18 MR. McEVOY: Yeah. Just to add a

19 little bit to that. As soon as there's

20 determinations made on the subcommittee

21 assignments, then we will be able to provide

22 that information through an NOSB or a USDA
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1 Organic Insider, so that the public will know

2 about these new subcommittee members.

3 The other thing that we plan to

4 do, as Michelle mentioned, is to post the

5 agenda items or action plan for the spring, so

6 that the public also sees that list of topics

7 that the Board will be working on and getting

8 ready for.

9 The other thing to keep in mind,

10 the Board has obviously a lot of work to do

11 between now and the next meeting. But all of

12 their proposals for the spring meeting, which

13 is in La Jolla or San Diego the last week of

14 April, that seems a long way away.

15 But they'll have to have their

16 proposals completed by the end of February,

17 because the proposals have to be completed,

18 and then they have to be posted and available

19 for public review and comment. So it's a lot

20 of work for them to do with the holidays and

21 the transition, between now and the end of

22 February.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Right. 

2 Anything else on the changing committee

3 structure? So Jennifer.

4 DR. TAYLOR: I would like to

5 suggest that I know in the PPM we had

6 something written about providing mentors, and

7 that would be mentors to the new committee

8 members and of course subcommittee members, as

9 well as maybe mentors to those as you change

10 committees.

11 If you have committee

12 reassignments, it might be appropriate as well

13 to bring everybody up to speed.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes. In terms

15 of the mentors for the new full Board members,

16 as required by our PPM, I have already worked

17 with them and with mentees on the Board. So

18 mentees and mentors to match them together, in

19 a manner that seems appropriate, and they've

20 all agreed. So all that is set up.

21 DR. TAYLOR: Great.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: For the mentors
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1 for the incoming Board members. Your

2 suggestion that there be mentors for those

3 people sort of switching committees is what

4 you're thinking?

5 DR. TAYLOR: Also, I just think

6 that that would make the flow and the rate of

7 knowledge exchange to be better.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Good

9 suggestion.

10 DR. TAYLOR: Uh-huh, instead of

11 just jumping into the meeting, to have some

12 kind of information about what takes place in

13 that particular subcommittee.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: What takes

15 place, you mean for the incoming Board

16 members?

17 DR. TAYLOR: Yes.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes. 

19 Absolutely, yes. They'll get more information

20 probably than they really want, and they

21 already are. I mean they're all four of them

22 are very active in trying to accumulate as
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1 much knowledge as they can do before they jump

2 in. 

3 Because as we all recall, it is a

4 very big amount of material thrown at you as

5 you come onto the Board. Thanks, Jennifer. 

6 Any other comments on the changed committee

7 structure or other matters similar to that?

8 (No response.)

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. So the

10 next item on the agenda is really a rather

11 wonderful thing. Well, wonderful in some

12 ways, sad in others. We're going to be making

13 presentations to the outgoing members, which

14 Miles, you'll be doing that, and then we have

15 some special things from the NOSB for these

16 members as well, and each member will be

17 making some closing comments. 

18 Tribute to Outgoing Board Members

19 MR. McEVOY: Okay. So these Board

20 members have been on the National Organics

21 Standards Board for five years, nine meetings. 

22 I missed one unfortunately last year. Wow. 
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1 It's just amazing that so much time has gone

2 by and we've had so many fun conversations

3 about corn-steeped liquor, carrageenan, inerts

4 and sunset. 

5 So been a lot of fun, a lot of

6 good times, been a lot of good places and a

7 lot of good conversation, some very deep

8 discussions and debates. But it's all been

9 good. These are really, really wonderful

10 people. They've really contributed to the

11 forward movement of the organic sector, the

12 organic community. They all deserve an

13 immense amount of respect and support and

14 gratitude for the public service that they've

15 provided.

16 One does -- I'll start with Wendy

17 Fulwider. Wendy is one of the more quiet

18 members of the Board. But if it wasn't for

19 her, we wouldn't have the animal welfare

20 recommendations that were passed in 2011, a

21 couple of years ago now, and without those

22 recommendations, the USDA would not be able to
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1 move forward with implementing those

2 recommendations on furthering animal welfare

3 requirements under the USDA organic

4 regulations.

5 So Wendy Fulwider, for your

6 efforts on animal welfare, been an immense

7 contribution to the organic community, and

8 thank you so much for your service.

9 (Applause.)

10 (Off mic comments.)

11 DR. FULWIDER: Okay. How time

12 flies. I can't believe five years have gone

13 by. It doesn't feel that way. It's been

14 really wonderful and a privilege, you know, to

15 serve on the Board with all the different

16 folks that have been here over the years.

17 During my time as Livestock chair,

18 we unanimously passed the two recommendations,

19 the animal welfare and stocking rates, and

20 animal handling and transport to slaughter. 

21 I really enjoyed working on those. So I hope

22 that, you know, they do move forward, and if
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1 you need any advice, give me a call because

2 I'd be happy to answer questions. I like

3 that.

4 So I think this shows, you know,

5 that we passed these two recommendations, that

6 we can work together and we did a really great

7 job doing that. We passed those

8 recommendations unanimously, so that was

9 really cool. While the animal welfare piece

10 has been criticized a few times for now going

11 far enough, I do believe it's a really great

12 start, and I believe that future boards will

13 be able to build on this.

14 I hope that the Livestock

15 Committee will put the well being and the

16 needs of the animals first as they move

17 forward, and this isn't always easy. As

18 anyone who has followed the methionine

19 recommendations and story knows. 

20 While I've been on this Board, my

21 son Cody has been home growing the farm and

22 the number of animals on the farm and the
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1 number of acres that we're working, and he's

2 been sending me pictures every day of new

3 calves as his dairy cattle are starting their

4 calving season.

5 So I believe he is anxious for me

6 to get back home and take care of some of

7 those calves for him. So thank you.

8 (Applause.)

9 MR. McEVOY: Next, I'd like to

10 recognize Jay Feldman for his contributions. 

11 Jay is not one of the quieter members of the

12 Board, has contributed an immense amount of

13 public discussion, and we've had -- you know,

14 it might appear to you all from the audience

15 that Jay and I maybe are not agreeing on a lot

16 of things at times.

17 But I have immense respect for

18 Jay, for all of the knowledge. You bring that

19 passion and just the technical knowledge that

20 you bring to the Board and share with anybody

21 in the community really, really moves

22 everything forward. So thank you so much for
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1 your service and everything you've done for

2 organics.

3 (Applause.)

4 (Off mic comments.)

5 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. Well

6 thank you for those kinds words, Miles. I

7 concur. I agree with you. You know, this is

8 part of a process, and the process is

9 important to moving organic forward.

10 I want to share with you folks

11 what I've learned. The record's clear on what

12 we've accomplished. I feel proud to have been

13 a part of a lot of positive growth forward. 

14 What have I learned as an NOSB member in the

15 environmental position?

16 On the public, I've learned to

17 trust the public, ensure that the public

18 trusts you. Assume that we are all here to

19 grow organic, but that we may see organic

20 growth in different ways with different

21 prerequisites for growth.

22 I'm working with others. 
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1 Inclusion always works better than exclusion. 

2 Disagreement does not equal disrespect. 

3 Listen carefully to those you disagree with. 

4 Accept different personalities, even when you

5 may not like them. We do not like everybody

6 in our families, but we are part of an organic

7 family.

8 How we get there is important as

9 getting there. On process, full participation

10 in decision-making builds trust in the

11 decisions. Allow people to make mistakes and

12 know that all mistakes are not a conspiracy or

13 part of a conspiracy.

14 On collaboration, collaboration is

15 challenging sometimes, but it's fun. On

16 facts, facts matter. Don't be afraid of

17 facts, even if you think it will make you or

18 your cause look bad. The law matters. On

19 mistakes, mistakes happen along the way. I've

20 already said that.

21 Resources. Resources funding is

22 incredibly important. Technical reviews are
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1 critical to the deliberations of this Board. 

2 On defining organic, organic is a lifestyle

3 cultural choice that is now pervasive in

4 society. Society really does look to this

5 NOSB to create a gold standard for defining

6 organic.

7 So what goes on here has effect

8 throughout society, in terms of managing

9 practices in our homes, institutions, in our

10 communities, our parks, our schools, our home

11 gardens in addition to the marketplace of

12 food. Organic is part of the systemic changes

13 that must take place, as we chart a

14 sustainable path forward.

15 On environmentalists, listen to

16 the environmental voice in the deliberations. 

17 The law was created because it was understood

18 by those who participated in writing the law,

19 that conventional practices were not or are

20 not sustainable. So seek out the science and

21 perspectives of environmentalists. 

22 They're 20 percent of the Board
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1 and intended by Congress to have a significant

2 impact on the Board decisions, especially when

3 combined with consumers, another 20 percent. 

4 Environmentalists want to work with farmers,

5 another 20 percent.

6 On government involvement,

7 government has had an incredibly important

8 role in this process. However, the NOSB is

9 here to be an independent voice. Corporate

10 influence. Even though corporations are

11 people under some definitions, corporate

12 interests do not always align with organic

13 interests, and companies' fiduciary

14 responsibility to their owners or shareholders

15 to raise revenue.

16 However, our job is to try to

17 align those corporate interests with the core

18 values and principles of organic. When the

19 OMB, Office of Management and Budget, while

20 they may represent business interests and

21 protect against uncertainty in the

22 marketplace, remember our striving for
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1 continuous improvements creates an ongoing

2 climate of uncertainty, in which organic

3 flourishes. We have a history of that.

4 So on a personal note, I'm almost

5 done Jean -- on a personal note, I need to

6 thank Terry. As hopefully you all know, Terry

7 is a cherished colleague of mine who has

8 contributed so much to my ability to dive deep

9 into the work of this Board.

10 I hope you all can find someone

11 like Terry, preferably someone available 24-7,

12 who can help you sort through these difficult

13 issues. I'd like to thank Michelle and the

14 staff of the NOSB, all hard-working people

15 that want to facilitate the work of this

16 Board.

17 Use them, cherish them as kind and

18 considerate individuals that want this Board

19 to work. But Michelle, Michelle, you are

20 special. You redefine the definition of

21 government worker, and we need a new

22 definition for government worker, because all
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1 -- you'll find as Board members and those on

2 the Board know, she is available to you almost

3 24-7.

4 I need to thank my family, because

5 as you all know as Board members, this does

6 take a toll on family. I'm envisioning myself

7 standing on the Schoodic Peninsula in Maine

8 this summer where, you know, trying to find

9 time to find not only a cell connection, but

10 a time to get on an NOSB call.

11 So with the commitment that we all

12 make to this Board, it does take a toll on

13 family time. I must thank my wife Josie, who

14 many of you have met, and my children as well,

15 Gabriel and Kira, for all those vacations

16 where I had to step aside at times.

17 But at the end of the day, I need

18 to thank all of you in the audience and all of

19 you on the Board. I mean you all put in an

20 incredible amount of time and resources, and

21 believe in this process and want this process

22 to work. I will continue to support you in
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1 any role that I have going forward.

2 So thank you all for everything

3 you've done and continue to do to make organic

4 grow and make organic strong, and ensure that

5 the public trusts the integrity of the process

6 going forward. Good luck to everybody. Thank

7 you for welcoming me. Thank you for your

8 patience with me. Thank you for listening to

9 me and I look forward to working with you from

10 the other side of the table. Take care.

11 (Applause.)

12 MR. McEVOY: Okay. Joe is next. 

13 Joe Dickson, five years. Lots of meetings,

14 lots of discussions on a whole bunch of

15 different things. Your insight into the

16 various parts of the handling and distribution

17 network has been very valuable to all the

18 Board and to the program as well.

19 Your -- he does a lot of

20 interesting things. You should talk to him

21 about his farm and his animals, because I

22 think that also brings your roots in the soil
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1 and in the farming community, and that's a

2 part of Joe that maybe not a lot of people

3 know.

4 But it's been a pleasure to know

5 you, and I hope we can continue to work

6 together as you go on to other pastures.

7 (Applause.)

8 (Off mic comments.)

9 MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Miles. 

10 Thank you for making me come right after Jay. 

11 My comments are not going to be anywhere as

12 extensive, but they will be just as heartfelt. 

13 So you know, all the hallways conversations

14 the last couple of days have been like "So,

15 you're excited to be done?" 

16 I'm like yeah, I'm so excited for

17 all the time I'm going to get back, how fun

18 it's going to be to sit back there and get up

19 and go walk around and go to Starbucks and get

20 my own coffee and all that stuff.

21 We were having all these

22 conversations, and then as last night rolled
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1 around, I think, you know, we had a Board

2 dinner last night that had some very heartfelt

3 conversations and toasts and, you know, real

4 expression of sentiments to the outgoing and

5 incoming and current Board members.

6 I started to feel this really

7 incredible sadness, that this was all coming

8 to an end. This is an unseemly brilliant,

9 interested, committed group of people, like so

10 opinionated and so expressive, and I have

11 learned more sitting at this table for the

12 last five years than most, you know, Master's

13 degree programs would impart, you know.

14 I mean it is just -- each and

15 every person at this table is just a genius,

16 and brings so much to this process. I'm very

17 lucky to work for a company and for a boss

18 that understands the value of the time I spend

19 at this table.

20 I'm very fortunate and, you know,

21 the work here at the end of the day basically

22 considered part of my job. However, Francis'
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1 cows, Mac's turkeys, Wendy's growing herd of

2 all kinds of things, which is really exciting,

3 Nick's vegetables and animals and all that, I

4 don't think they're as forgiving as my boss

5 is.

6 I really want to acknowledge the

7 amount of time it takes to sit here at this

8 table, and especially the impact that has on 

9 people who are running very small, very hard

10 to manage agricultural operations, and to fly

11 off to Louisville for five days and just sit

12 at a table and talk is really powerful and

13 really important, but it must be a huge

14 struggle. So I really want to acknowledge the

15 people on the Board who don't work at a desk

16 all day. 

17 About what we're doing here, I

18 mean I started working in organic food because

19 I believe that what was happening on organic

20 farms, and as I came to learn in this room, is

21 part of our work to -- and part of the power

22 of organic agriculture to heal the earth, to
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1 undo the damage of industrial agriculture, to

2 look powerfully at the way we treat animals

3 and each other and plants.

4 The questions on that syllabus for

5 the fall, a lot of those are big, serious,

6 fundamental questions about who we are as a

7 people, how we get our food, what consumers

8 expect and the role that standards and labels

9 can play in creating a new kind of

10 agriculture.

11 We've been successful in doing

12 that and, you know, what -- that success has

13 been largely because of what's happened at

14 this table over the last 20 or more years. 

15 That's it really. I mean I want to

16 acknowledge too the incredible tone of this

17 meeting. I think it's been one of our most

18 productive and collegial meetings that I've

19 been to in a really long time.

20 I think that's a testament to Mac

21 and Jean's leadership of this Board over the

22 last few years, and possibly a little bit the
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1 power of bourbon. But I leave this meeting

2 with a lot of optimism for the future of this

3 Board and the work that y'all are going to do. 

4 So thank you.

5 (Applause.)

6 MR. McEVOY: Okay. Now John

7 Foster. John Foster I've known for quite a

8 long time, when he used to be an inspector and

9 we used to work for Oregon Tilth and I guess

10 he was the executive director there for a

11 while. So I knew you there when I was at WSDA.

12 So he's been in the certification

13 and inspector world for a long time, and I

14 have a lot of respect for John in his work as

15 an inspector. Then he brought that experience

16 to more production organic agriculture, and

17 has brought all those experiences and

18 perspective to the Board, which I think has

19 been of immense value to the discussions and

20 to the Board, both that understanding of

21 organic production agriculture and the

22 certification and inspection process, of how
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1 you can create standards that are verifiable

2 and have real meaning and will work in the

3 farms and handling and processing facilities.

4 So John, great work. Look forward

5 to working with you in the future, and best of

6 luck with your new family. 

7 (Applause.)

8 (Off mic comments.)

9 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Y'all know

10 what I look like, I think, anyway. So thank

11 you Miles for that. It's been a real

12 privilege. I've known you for I think almost

13 20 years now. So before I get going on

14 parting thoughts, I do also want to really

15 thank my family, which I don't do on a regular

16 basis here. 

17 But as everyone in this room knows

18 and Jay said very, very well, it really takes

19 a toll. So I really appreciate that they've

20 supported me and supported the house while I'm

21 not there, and I'm not cleaning roof gutters

22 and I'm not doing dishes and I'm not going
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1 grocery shopping and changing diapers, which

2 actually in an odd way I really do miss when

3 I'm not doing it.

4 Let's see. Also, I should also

5 thank my employer. Joe, you did a nice job

6 with that. I remember the day I asked Will if

7 it would be all right if I applied for the

8 position. He said "Oh yeah, that would be

9 great. Awesome, great." Then he paused. He

10 said "You still have to get all your work

11 done."

12 I'm like -- but yeah. Go do that. 

13 Whatever you need to do, go do it. That's

14 fine. So you know, for every hour on a

15 conference call, you make it up, in the

16 evenings. You make it up on the weekend. 

17 More of a toll on the family, as Jay said. 

18 But they allowed a lot of

19 flexibility to get things done, a lot of

20 accommodation, and rearranged a lot of things

21 and a lot of people, because they knew the

22 value of the commitment to the community.
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1 Also I want to echo the thanks to

2 the NOP staff, who work every bit as hard if

3 not harder than all of us too, and it shows in

4 the quality of the work and the quality of the

5 people that we're honored to work with. So I

6 really do appreciate sincerely all of the

7 program staff that support us.

8 So over the last five years, I

9 hold my tongue a little bit more than I really

10 want to. But so if I go on a little bit long,

11 Madam Chair, I hope you give me a little

12 indulgence. I will not go on ad infinitum, I

13 promise. 

14 So not surprising to those who

15 know me, I'm going to make a lot of literary

16 and other cultural references in these

17 comments. Some are explicit, some are not,

18 some not so much. To those who are so

19 inclined, as in past years, feel free to send

20 me a list of those you can identify, and if

21 you get them all, I'll be delighted to buy you

22 some classic beverage at a future meeting, so
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1 start writing. 

2 One of my favorite poems in the

3 world starts with this. "Turning and turning

4 in the widening gyre, the falcon cannot hear

5 the falconer. Things fall apart, the center

6 cannot hold. Mere anarchy is loosed upon the

7 world. The blood dimmed tide is loosed, and

8 everywhere the ceremony of innocents is

9 drowned. The best lack all conviction. While

10 the worst are full of passionate intensity."

11 And there are times when I've been

12 sitting at this table -- that's the end of the

13 quote, by the way -- there are times where

14 I've been sitting here where I feel like that,

15 that things are just out of control, and this

16 -- that was -- that's a Yeats poem called the

17 Second Coming, and it was written right after

18 he turned 50 in the aftermath of World War I.

19 Things were pretty dreary in Europe.

20 But what it also talks about is

21 that's the nature of cycles. It's paradigm

22 shifts. It's spiraling, the nature of
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1 spiraling evolution, and that's a promising

2 thing for me. 

3 I have in the last five years been

4 a lot of things and called a lot of things. 

5 But the ones I think of when I think of my

6 happier times are that I've gotten to be a

7 farmer, I've gotten to be an inspector,

8 horticulture teacher, a trainer of other

9 inspectors, a reviewer, administrative

10 processor, candle maker, bouquet maker,

11 chicken herder, egg gatherer, cert director,

12 executive director.

13 I've settled lawsuits. I've

14 solved problems, I've grown seed and tried to

15 be a good husband, brother, father, son,

16 friend. I've developed a real interest in

17 mixology, done a lot of painting, and I've

18 started making bitters and shrubs, and I've

19 gotten the word "threeve" into the public

20 record twice now.

21 Of course, I've quoted a lot of

22 the Big Lebowski in this setting. So while
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1 I've heard a lot, you know, and I've heard a

2 lot of things that cause me a lot of angst,

3 I've also heard a lot of things that are some

4 of the most encouraging and brilliant and

5 thoughtful comments, certainly heartfelt, full

6 of passion and full of life, and that's been

7 a true privilege and honor.

8 That's the only thing that keeps

9 me an optimist actually, and even through the

10 darkest times. So the five years that we've 

11 -- this group has been on the Board have been

12 Woodland, California, Madison, Wisconsin,

13 Seattle, Savannah, Albuquerque, Providence,

14 Portland, San Antonio and now Louisville. 

15 Not one has been in Washington,

16 D.C., and I would love to have come back there

17 at some point. I think that would be just

18 fine. There's farms near D.C. as well. 

19 I have a little book that my

20 grandmother put together, that talks about all

21 of the John Fosters in my family, back to

22 about 400 years ago actually in Scotland, and
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1 all they did was raise sheep, lots of sheep. 

2 Sheep, sheep, more sheep, and in the cemetery

3 in this little town where they're from,

4 there's grave markers that have family members

5 for another 200 years, and they raised sheep.

6 I have barrel coopers in my family

7 and I have lots of chicken farmers in my

8 family, and on another side that came from

9 Sweden, they got booted from Germany during

10 the Reformation and they farmed. What's

11 really I don't want to lose track of, that

12 even though a lot of us don't make our living

13 farming, most of us owe our whole existence,

14 our whole family's existence to farming at

15 some point.

16 None of us would be here without

17 farming, even if that's not what we do for a

18 living. So we all owe it, to the great

19 farmers of history that got us here. That's

20 where it starts for me.

21 I'm going to skip to my next

22 favorite piece of writing actually, from Erwin
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1 Schrodinger. This is the thing that I found

2 when I was looking for more inspiration, and

3 it describes kind of how I feel about this

4 process we're in.

5 "Thus, you can throw yourself flat

6 on the ground, stretched upon Mother Earth,

7 with a certain conviction that you are one

8 with her and she with you. You are as firmly

9 established as invulnerable as she, indeed

10 1,000 times firmer and more invulnerable.

11 "As surely as she will engulf you

12 tomorrow, so surely will she bring you forth

13 anew, striving and suffering, and not merely

14 Sunday; now, today. Every day she is bringing

15 you forth not once but thousands upon

16 thousands of times, just as every day she

17 engulfs you a thousand times over.

18 "For eternally and always there is

19 only now, the one and same now. The present

20 is the only thing that has no end." 

21 For me, it's easy to forget -- I

22 use the phrase a lot "get down in the weeds"
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1 in this venue, and it's easy to forget the

2 context for me. I like the idea that we have

3 a long way to go, and we'll only get there

4 together. I like to remember that. 

5 I'm going to close. I remain

6 optimistic because of a lot of great writers

7 and poets, but I also remain optimistic

8 because of a lot of people who are in this

9 room right now. All of these colleagues on

10 the Board, all of the people who I know in the

11 gallery are familiar faces, and it's --

12 I'm optimistic because of all of

13 that passion and all of that caring. Even if

14 it's a position I don't particularly agree

15 with, I have never lost admiration for the

16 passion and the intent. The intent is all

17 good, and that's optimistic for me.

18 Lastly, let me read -- what I'd

19 like to ask is not that we drop our opinions. 

20 I don't really like that phrase "circular

21 firing squad." It's not a great image for me,

22 but I also don't know that that's really an
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1 apt metaphor anymore. It's a pretty big

2 circle, and it would be sad if we weren't all

3 one circle anymore. I don't like to really

4 consider that.

5 But I guess what I'd ask is not to

6 forget our differences, but to focus on what

7 we agree on first, and when we talk in public,

8 think about what we -- talk about what we

9 agree on first, because a lot of comments that

10 I've heard over the years is that we share

11 more than -- we have more in common than what

12 separates us.

13 I would just ask that we talk

14 about that first. We don't often get a chance

15 to do that, and until we've had a little

16 opportunity in recent years to get together

17 more socially, ahead of the formal meeting, we

18 kind of forgot who each other were.

19 The moment that we were able to

20 spend a little time together before the

21 meeting proceeded is when I felt there's a

22 little change in recognizing the humanness in
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1 each other. I think without that, we don't

2 have much of a chance of success in anything.

3 So I would encourage that. But I

4 know resources are limited. We don't always

5 have time to do that. But I would just ask

6 that we imagine what we could do if we spoke

7 to our common ground first, not casting aside

8 our opinions, not changing -- I mean not

9 letting go of those things that make us

10 different. That's important too.

11 But I'm just asking we go first to

12 our common ground, speak to our common goals

13 first. When we write for our publications,

14 write about that first. When you give

15 interviews, talk about that first. When we

16 work, work for that first.

17 Debate, agree to the commonalities

18 first and always get that -- use that starting

19 point, please. I know we will get to more

20 gritty differences and that's fine. But I

21 just wish we would start with what binds us

22 first.
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1 You know, I'd like to -- I'd like

2 to read one last thing here, and those of you

3 who are here this morning will recognize it. 

4 But I think it's different now. I'll read it

5 again. "The magnificent here and now of life

6 in the flesh is ours and ours alone, and ours

7 only for a time. We ought to dance with

8 rapture that we should be alive and in the

9 flesh and part of a living, incarnate cosmos.

10 "I'm part of the sun as my eye is

11 part of me. That I am part of my earth my

12 feet know perfectly and my blood is part of

13 the sea. My soul knows that I am part of the

14 human race. My soul is an organic part of the

15 great human soul, as my spirit is part of my

16 nation.

17 "In my own self, I'm part of my

18 family. There's nothing of me that is alone

19 and absolute except my mind, and we shall find

20 that the mind has no existence by itself. It

21 is only the glitter of the sun on the surface

22 of the waters." 
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1 So that was written, as I said

2 this morning, by D.H. Lawrence. I think it's

3 some of the nicest English language craft ever

4 put down on paper. A couple of other

5 Englishmen said it a little more plainly, and

6 it starts like this:

7 "I am he and you are he as we are

8 me and we are all together." It happens to

9 end with "I am a walrus, koo koo ka-choo." 

10 With that, I thank you Madam Chair for your

11 indulgence. That was very indulgent of you

12 and I appreciate it, and all of your kind

13 words, your confidences, your humor, your

14 challenges, your passion, your cocktail

15 recipes and your commitment.

16 It's been a distinct pleasure and

17 a real privilege serving with all of you on

18 the Board. Thank you.

19 (Applause.)

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right. May

21 the dude abide. Calvin, come on up. Calvin

22 has a few things.
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1 DR. WALKER: Yes. I'll, if I may

2 just reside right here, and Colehour will get

3 help. About two months ago on an executive

4 call, I made the recommendation that as Board

5 members leave, they shouldn't just leave with

6 a plaque, but they should have an opportunity

7 to say some final words.

8 We are glad that the program and

9 the executive committee consented that we do

10 that, and there's a saying. "Be careful what

11 you ask for, because you might get it." So

12 the Chair, Dr. Richardson said "Calvin, that's 

13 a good idea. We'll let you coordinate that."

14 So this is the final piece of

15 that. We want them to say words. First,

16 we're going to do -- this is on behalf of the

17 Board, 11 of us that are still here. We talk

18 about what John, Jay, Dr. Fulwider and yes Joe

19 have done.

20 What I'd like to do is start with

21 Dr. Wendy Fulwider. This particular

22 certificate reads "Well, the USDA National" --
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Microphone. 

2 DR. WALKER: Pardon?

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Use the

4 microphone.

5 DR. WALKER: Yes. We, the United 

6 States Department of Agriculture National

7 Organic Standards Board family, thank you for

8 your tireless service to the organic nation

9 and world. During your appointment, your

10 service was inclusive of the following." This

11 is for Dr. Fulwider.

12 2014 member of the Compliance,

13 Accreditation and Certification Subcommittee;

14 2010 through 2014 member of the Materials

15 Subcommittee; 2013 Vice Chair of the Livestock

16 Subcommittee; 2011 through '12, Chair of the

17 Livestock Committee, and we certainly hope

18 those welfare rules come out soon.

19 In 2010, 2012, 2013, she served as

20 the Secretary, and bear in mind that she

21 served as the Secretary where she didn't need

22 any help. As you can tell, since she was no
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1 longer the Secretary, that myself, Mac, we've

2 all needed help in recording these votes. So

3 she was able to do it singlehandedly.

4 In 2010, she served as the Vice

5 Chair of the Livestock Committee. In the

6 final words, as we rotate off the NOSB, let us

7 view it not as a sunset, but a sunrise. This

8 is signed by all the current members of the

9 NOSB, and Colehour, we can give this to our

10 president for a photo op, and this is a token,

11 Dr. Fulwider, of your fellow Board members. 

12 There's candy, it's apples, it's cheese, it's

13 some of everything.

14 (Applause.)

15 (Off mic comments.)

16 DR. WALKER: Okay, next. Joe

17 Dickson. It reads similar, a few words and

18 committees have certainly changed. We, the

19 United States Department of Agriculture

20 National Organic Standards Board family wish

21 to thank you for your tireless service to our

22 organic nation and world.
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1 Some of the appointments that you

2 have served so faithfully include 2014 Vice

3 Chair of the Livestock Subcommittee; 2014 Vice

4 Chair of the Compliance, Accreditation and

5 Certification Committee; 2010 through '14

6 member of the Handling Subcommittee; 2010

7 through '13 member of the Livestock

8 Subcommittee; 2012 through '13 member of the

9 Policy Development Subcommittee; 2012 member

10 of the Policy Committee -- near the end. 

11 2011 Vice Chair of the USDA

12 National Organic Standards Board; 2013 through

13 '11 Chair of the Compliance, Accreditation and

14 Certification Committee, and finally, in 2010,

15 he was a member of the Compliance,

16 Accreditation and Certification Committee.

17 We also have a bag and something

18 from your fellow Board members.

19 (Off mic comments.)

20 DR. WALKER: Next, John Foster. 

21 It reads very similar at the beginning and the

22 end. "We the United States Department of" --
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1 and also we thank John Foster for these

2 particular. Our names have been transposed to

3 a language he said he didn't know what it was. 

4 So but it was uniquely done, and we appreciate

5 that. 

6 He promised me that he would give

7 me the definition of twick, twerking and

8 tweaking, because I have them confused. "We,

9 the United States Department of -- the USDA

10 National Organic Standards Board family wish

11 to thank you for your tireless service to the

12 organic nation and world."

13 John's appointment include 2013-14

14 Vice Chair of the National Organic Standards

15 Board; 2013-14 member of the Policy

16 Development Subcommittee; 2014 member of the

17 Compliance, Accreditation and Certification

18 Subcommittee; 2013 and '14 Vice Chair of the

19 Handling Subcommittee; 2013-14 member of the

20 Corp Subcommittee; 2010 member of the Crops

21 Committee; 2010 through '11, Vice Chair of the

22 Handling Committee; 2010 through '12, member
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1 of the Materials Committee; and 2011, Chair of

2 the Crops Committee. Just to show the number

3 of committees that he has so aptly served.

4 (Applause.)

5 DR. WALKER: Last but not least

6 Jay. The word that I best describe him, as

7 Colehour was mentioning, I used the word

8 "focused." The certificate reads "We, the

9 National Organic Standards Board family wish

10 to thank you for your tireless service to the

11 organic nation and world."

12 Some of the committees Jay have so

13 aptly served, 2013-14, member of the Policy

14 Development Subcommittee; 2010 through '14,

15 member of the Crop Subcommittee; 2013, Chair

16 of the Crop Subcommittee; 2013, member of the

17 GMO Ad Hoc; 2010 through '14, member of the

18 Materials Subcommittee.

19 2013, member of the Inerts Working

20 Group; 2010 through '12, member of the Policy

21 Development Committee; 2013, member of the

22 Policy Development Subcommittee; and 2010,
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1 Vice Chair of the Materials Committee. It's

2 closed by "As we all rotate off NOSB, let us

3 view it not as a sunset, but a sunrise."

4 On behalf of all the subcommittees

5 of the NOSB, we want to say thank you for all

6 the work you've done.

7 (Applause.)

8 (Pause.)

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Is there any

10 other business to come before this meeting? 

11 Is there any other business to come before

12 this meeting? Is there any other business?

13 (No response.)

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: There being

15 none, right, we declare -- come on Miles -- we

16 declare this meeting is adjourned.

17 MR. McEVOY: The meeting to be

18 adjourned.

19 (Applause.)

20 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

21 matter went off the record at 2:27 p.m.)

22
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A

a.m 1:8 3:2 108:11

108:12 143:14

Abernathy 83:22

abide 202:21

ability 6:22 8:2

101:5,21 182:8

able 6:13 27:4

51:22 52:12 58:1

58:18 74:9 83:11

92:4,20 96:10

101:5,12,22,22

133:21 163:22

164:15 169:21

174:22 176:13

199:19 205:3

above-entitled

108:10 143:13

209:20

absolute 4:7 201:19

Absolutely 172:19

abstain 107:9

abstention 107:22

108:1

ACA 34:10

acaracide 122:5

acaracides 121:2

121:19

accept 87:7 102:17

179:4

access 27:20 28:2,4

accidentally 7:12

acclamation 145:1

146:9

accommodation

191:20

accompany 70:9

accomplished

178:12

accreditation 151:7

151:16 204:13

206:4,13,16

207:17

accumulate 172:22

accumulation

123:12 125:14

accurate 88:4

106:15

accurately 106:4

achieved 108:2

acid 2:13 79:13,19

80:1,9 81:13 82:2

82:11 83:15,18

84:1 86:8 104:16

106:22

Acidified 159:7

acids 101:8

acknowledge 187:6

187:14 188:16

acknowledgment

60:2

acreage 101:17

acres 177:1

act 21:19 48:11

58:1 102:11,16

119:2 151:9

acting 102:14

168:1,2,4

action 44:5 48:19

77:20 85:2 87:11

88:4 102:19 113:9

150:1 170:5

actions 55:12 122:9

active 49:2,11

172:22

actively 40:4 51:16

actual 62:3 148:4

ad 10:2 161:6

192:12 208:17

add 17:11 18:13

24:2 28:3 29:20

33:5 34:10 45:19

46:4 57:15 66:1

77:6,22 78:15

84:7 100:1 150:2

156:13 160:7,7

169:18

added 10:21 49:3

50:14 76:22 77:1

80:5 98:9 106:13

116:7,21 121:10

122:13 127:16

131:14 150:16

158:10

addition 56:20

101:4 122:10

139:7 180:11

additional 72:17

117:14 136:10

additionally 15:9

additions 151:21

159:17 162:13

additive 157:10

address 16:12 17:8

71:18 99:2 116:18

165:3,4,6,9

addressed 58:17

72:1 117:22

129:20

addresses 117:15

addressing 69:8

adjourned 209:16

209:18

administrative

194:9

Administrator

1:22 108:21

admiration 198:15

admit 34:17 80:20

adopt 102:15

adopted 99:5

advance 62:9 80:20

advantage 20:20

114:5

adverse 42:5

advice 176:1

advise 42:12

advised 62:10

Advisory 1:19

affect 74:10 82:14

affirm 133:2

affirmative 22:5

affirmed 11:8

afford 95:18

afraid 179:16

aftermath 193:18

afternoon 45:3

143:6

ag-chemicals 134:8

agenda 36:21 44:12

44:16 47:3,8 79:4

115:15 141:7

143:11 144:5

148:15,17 149:14

149:21 150:17,18

151:19 152:12,21

153:15,19 156:14

156:21 158:18

159:18 160:7,9

162:14 163:14,15

164:14 167:7

170:5 173:10

agendas 163:3

ago 24:7 77:15

133:21 164:7

174:21 195:22

203:3

agree 6:3 7:17

14:13 45:21 46:1

140:8 178:7

198:14 199:7,9

200:17

agreed 6:7 9:7 55:9

132:19,20 171:20

agreeing 177:15

agreements 29:11

agrees 7:5,14 11:6

86:18 133:14

135:8

agricultural 85:12

105:7 187:10

agriculture 1:1

6:16 68:18 73:15

74:3 81:17 86:6

98:22 104:9 110:1

113:4 119:4

128:22 147:16

149:4,8 187:22

188:1,10 189:16

189:21 204:6

205:19

agronomist 71:21

ahead 14:19 75:5

140:20 199:17

aiming 58:9

Aina 113:13,18

air 85:4

Albuquerque

29:22 195:13

algae 116:17

117:10

algal 157:1,3

align 12:14 181:12

181:17

alignment 12:22

alive 3:19 201:8

alkaline 96:21 97:7

alleviate 96:4

Alliance 11:2

allow 45:9 48:11

66:7 82:1 96:22

123:14 125:15

136:9 179:11

allowance 13:20

21:12 23:4 49:14

128:2

allowed 21:10 22:3

23:8,10 24:3

49:16,19 93:17

95:6 96:18 99:8

99:17 100:8

101:14,16 191:18

allowing 9:7,9

92:14 99:17

allows 14:9 21:19

84:3

alluded 30:6 31:4

94:11

Allyl 152:15

alternative 81:8

117:8 130:16

133:15 138:1

alternatives 64:19

81:13 116:19

117:6,16 125:12

129:10 132:15

133:17 135:9,13

aluminum 125:6

159:8

amazing 174:1

amendment 125:8

amendments 68:6

68:10

America 109:16

110:9 134:18
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ammonium 157:2

157:9

amount 5:19 33:2

101:6,17 173:4

174:13 177:12

183:20 187:7

amounts 101:8

AMS 1:21,22 51:20

55:20 86:22 87:10

analoguous 33:8

analysis 97:5

analyze 96:16

anarchy 193:6

ancillary 158:4

and/or 80:21

anew 197:13

Angeles 111:11,21

111:22 112:16

angst 195:2

animal 21:19 22:1

25:22 160:10

174:19 175:2,6,19

175:20 176:9

animals 31:8 68:18

68:20 162:5

176:16,22 184:21

187:3 188:2

annotate 43:2

annotation 70:14

135:6,11 139:8

154:4,9 164:14

annotations 154:17

163:14 164:4,11

164:20

announce 62:7

148:3

announced 148:5

answer 19:9 57:13

80:15 99:3 101:3

176:2

antibiotic 67:13

antibiotics 68:11

68:19

Antonio 37:5 46:8

195:14

anxious 177:5

anybody 106:11

133:8 157:21

177:20

anymore 199:1,3

anyway 121:17

190:10

apart 193:5

APHIS 26:17 27:21

28:9 29:1

APHIS's 12:8

apologies 161:10

apologize 162:7

apparent 141:20

appeal 64:9

appear 92:20

177:14

appears 127:11

131:9 132:16

Applause 113:21

145:12 146:12

148:11 175:9

177:8 178:3

184:11 185:7

189:5 190:7

202:19 205:14

208:4 209:7,19

apples 205:12

application 123:4

125:7

applied 100:16

191:7

applies 22:17

apply 17:19 92:22

appointed 109:4

146:9

appointment 204:9

207:13

appointments

206:1

appreciate 10:17

36:20 45:19 59:22

66:21 115:4 145:6

145:9 146:13

190:19 192:6

202:12 207:4

approach 24:19

70:17 79:8

approaching 31:22

appropriate 11:8

15:18 45:14 46:15

151:16 171:12,19

approval 125:10

approved 6:17

22:19 23:11 98:18

99:9 116:5 163:3

April 51:3 54:22

170:14

APS 122:22 123:3

123:10 124:17,19

125:2

apt 199:1

aptly 208:3,13

aquaculture 2:6

37:4,8,14 38:5,14

40:16 45:1 46:19

159:13,19 160:8

aqueous 2:14

120:17,21 121:6

121:20 123:14

125:15

Arabia 84:11,21

area 8:18 28:12

69:17,21 70:5

74:8 112:17

areas 12:20 27:8

69:2 70:15 72:9

95:18

argue 97:8 134:19

argument 71:17

arguments 128:14

129:1

arrive 68:12

ARS 20:5

ARSENAULT

1:19 150:2

aside 183:16 200:7

asked 6:16 10:21

34:13 59:12

112:13 137:1

168:20 191:6

asking 65:14 75:8

200:11

asks 9:5 10:14

aspects 11:9 164:20

assembly 114:8

assessment 23:18

98:11

assessments 132:14

assigned 167:15

assignments 2:20

167:10,14 169:21

assist 69:6

associated 17:2

Association 84:9

assume 17:19

178:18

assure 62:12

assured 26:22

103:15

attempt 30:15

94:18

attention 141:1

attesting 98:3

audience 94:4

166:11,22,22

177:14 183:18

august 161:14

Austin 1:12 36:2

91:10 93:15 101:2

107:5 119:21

126:9 136:6 140:8

142:19 144:13

145:16 156:20

160:17

authority 74:11

78:5

authorized 24:21

authors 3:12

avail 46:3

availability 125:4

available 7:7 9:10

23:20 28:3 80:7

116:10 121:12

123:11 125:13

127:19 128:6

131:17 135:10,14

137:19 170:18

182:11 183:2

avoid 7:11,20 78:7

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aware 9:2 53:3

63:6 78:10

awesome 59:19

191:9

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back 5:3 6:9 15:19

20:1,7 21:1,3 29:8

30:16 35:1 40:2

41:7 43:19 54:16

64:6,16 73:6 83:6

85:7,16 91:12

100:12 103:11

108:5,9 114:1

118:2,18 140:12

143:9 154:12

157:4,7 158:4

160:19 161:13

162:22 163:1,5

164:16 177:6

185:17,18 195:16

195:21

background 48:9

55:16 111:18

122:11

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bacteria 67:15

bad 57:19 179:18

bag 206:17

bait 127:14

baits 129:8

balanced 57:9

ball 153:11

ballot 147:19

ballroom 1:7 111:1

ballrooms 110:20

barns 110:20

barrel 196:6

based 21:4 45:16

70:5 85:16 86:2,4

118:15,20,22

124:10,13,20

125:10 140:14

168:15,17

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48:16 49:1 186:21
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beginning 206:21

begins 95:12

begun 164:18

behalf 7:22 203:16

209:4

beings 27:19

belaboring 115:9

believe 22:1 35:8

40:12 60:15 86:21

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114:19 126:7

136:14 138:15

159:10 169:9

175:12 176:11,12

177:5 183:21

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beneficial 99:20

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69:20 135:2

161:19,22 164:3

190:5 193:9 208:6

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Betsy's 150:22

better 12:22 39:1

45:2 50:19 95:15

111:12 140:17

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beverage 192:22

beyond 6:7 7:2

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134:10 136:21

biannual 161:14

bifenthrin 67:11

74:7

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72:14 75:22 99:11

134:6,7 173:4

188:5 194:22

199:1

bigger 16:17

binds 200:21

biodegradable

100:4,7,8

biological 81:14

biologics 22:22

23:3,16

Biopesticides 48:5

biotechnology

12:11,13 13:1,4

bisulfate 159:8

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20:15 28:3 29:20

31:2 35:4 43:13

44:8 55:19 90:21

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112:20 168:6

169:19 188:22

192:2,9,10

bitters 194:18

blood 4:1 193:7

201:12

blue 4:19

blueberries 96:19

101:15

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Board 1:3,7 20:14

21:7 23:15,22

24:11 25:4,5,7,13

26:9 29:6,7 30:5,9

37:12,17,21 38:12

42:11 43:6 44:21

45:4,6,15,22 46:5

47:22 48:18 50:17

61:10,12,18,22

62:18 63:7,18

64:5 76:1,8 88:12

91:18 92:2,2,3,5

92:10 94:6 102:16

102:20 103:18

108:22 109:5,7,10

109:13,18 110:2

112:11 123:19,22

124:3,7,8 130:7

130:13,18 136:9

137:10 139:11

150:15 151:15

169:7,8 170:7,10

171:15,17 172:1

172:15 173:5,18

173:19,21 174:18

175:15 176:20

177:12,20 180:1

180:22 181:2

182:9,16,18 183:1

183:2,5,12,19

184:18 186:1,5

187:15 188:21

189:3,18,20

195:11 198:10

202:18 203:4,17

204:7 205:11,20

206:12,18 207:10

207:15 208:9

boards 38:1 176:12

body 5:16 161:14

boiler 157:10

Bondera 1:13

15:22 35:13 36:7

43:11 59:19 65:4

79:14 80:9 88:1

105:9,12 107:11

120:4 126:14

142:9

book 195:19

books 8:13

booted 196:9

boots 27:5

boss 186:17 187:4

bouquet 194:10

bourbon 189:1

box 104:11

BPA 158:6,15

branch 53:4

Brazil 111:12

bread 37:4 38:3

159:20

break 27:16 67:16

108:4

breeding 13:21

14:1,2,9 20:2

brief 153:22

briefly 101:2

bright 47:13

brilliant 186:8

195:4

Brines 1:20 48:2

79:18 115:19

120:20 127:10

131:8 155:18

bring 34:1 43:19

81:1 92:1 150:8

162:1 171:13

177:18,20 197:12

bringing 112:1

161:13 197:14

brings 143:4

184:22 186:16

broad 16:15 71:6

broader 16:8

brother 194:15

Brothers 83:22

brought 29:10

69:10 92:4 140:11

189:15,17

Brown 1:21 47:9

47:12 62:4

Budget 181:19

build 123:5 176:13

builds 179:10

bulk 153:16

bullet 33:15

bump 64:10

bunch 184:14

burden 78:20

burdens 78:20

Bureau 112:3

bureaucratic 65:12

burner 40:2

burners 85:6

business 2:22 4:21

114:7,11 181:20

209:10,11,12

buy 31:15 192:21

buying 111:3

C

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CACS 150:17

151:2,5 164:9,14

calcium 152:15

California 8:5

10:22 11:2 74:5

83:16,18,19 84:17

195:12

call 35:5,7,18 42:9

75:12,13 176:1

183:10 191:15

203:4

called 37:3 44:12

53:4,18 57:2

150:17 193:16

194:4

calling 60:14 167:8

calls 26:16 33:21

169:13

calves 177:3,7

Calvin 145:22

147:14 161:10

162:12,15 202:21

202:21 203:12

calving 177:4

candidate 154:11

candle 194:10

candy 205:12

cane 113:3

capacity 44:4

capture 37:22 38:5

40:9,21 56:11

73:7

carbonate 2:13

115:16,20 116:2

116:15 119:7,12

119:13 154:3

card 59:13 147:20

148:1

cards 148:1

care 110:12 112:4

177:6 184:10

careful 203:10

carefully 179:3
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caring 198:13

Carmela 1:13

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case 50:6 87:9

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categories 56:22

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cattle 177:3

cause 179:18 195:2

caused 54:15

causes 129:17

causing 37:9

CBI 28:20

CCOF 71:10 83:15

99:6 118:4 122:17

129:11

CDFA 74:5

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183:9

cemetery 196:2

center 7:5,16 193:5

ceremony 193:8

cert 194:11

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certainly 7:8 8:4,10

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certificate 203:22

208:8

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certified 83:19

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71:14

certifiers 9:15,16

10:9 15:1 34:14

35:16 61:4 73:12

78:6 99:19 100:18

161:21 166:15

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CFS 7:18

chair 3:3,4,8 4:11

5:3,5 17:10 19:12

20:21 26:12 32:9

32:15 34:9 35:5

35:11,20 36:13,13

40:12,15 41:4,15

43:10 46:21 47:2

58:11 59:8 75:2,7

75:13,15 76:12

77:3,11 78:13

79:2,10 87:14,22

88:6,8,10,13 89:2

89:9,15,19 90:18

91:7,13 92:16

93:14 94:22 96:11

97:2,17 98:6 99:1

99:21 100:21

102:5 103:19

104:2,15 105:11

106:21 107:17,18

107:18 108:3,13

108:16 113:22

114:2,11 119:11

119:16 120:10,12

120:12 124:9

126:1,5,20 127:1

127:1 130:1,5

131:1,20 133:7,18

133:19 135:3,5,15

135:19,20 136:1

137:5,11 138:16

139:17 140:7

141:13 142:2,15

142:20,20 143:3

144:4,7,11,14,17

144:18,20 145:1,3

145:5,13,14,17,21

146:1,3,5,7,8,10

146:15,20 147:1,5

147:10,17 148:3

148:13 149:17

150:4,11,14

151:20 152:2

155:6,11 156:9,16

158:8,22 159:16

160:6,14 161:4,8

161:9 162:11,21

163:19,19,20

164:6 165:13,17

165:22 167:3,6,16

167:19 168:4,4

171:1,14,22 172:8

172:14,18 173:9

175:17 190:9

192:11 202:10,20

203:12 204:1,3,15

204:16 205:5

206:3,4,11,13

207:14,18,21

208:1,15 209:1,9

209:14

Chair's 168:21

Chairperson 1:9

1:11,11 2:2,8 4:14

chairs 167:22

168:9,16

challenge 24:22

26:7

challenges 202:14

challenging 179:15

chance 37:7 39:18

41:19 137:2

199:14 200:2

change 27:11 56:17

74:10 75:19 87:4

98:11 139:3

148:18 154:9

167:14 168:8

171:9 199:22

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94:11 105:16

106:10 154:11

173:6 205:18

changes 70:14

74:22 75:22 139:8

180:12

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139:21 154:17

171:2 191:1 200:8

characteristic

83:13

characterize 82:13

charge 99:16

chart 19:6 48:8

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check 55:2 100:12

136:22

checkboxes 105:16

checked 104:12

checklist 104:10,20

105:8,13,20,22

106:4,6,8,17

cheese 205:12

chemical 53:18

54:2,9 125:3

chemicals 54:1

chemistry 98:14

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182:17

cherished 182:7

chicken 20:15

194:11 196:7

children 183:14

China 134:20

chipper 47:14

chloride 2:15 131:5

131:9,12 159:7

chocolate 144:22

choice 180:3

choose 68:2 90:16

chose 39:4 83:12

chosen 59:7 80:21

Chris 48:4

circle 199:2,3

circular 198:20

circulate 38:20

cite 83:3,11

cited 86:5 87:8

103:2 129:13

citrate 157:13

citric 101:8

City 111:20 112:16

clarification 11:4

88:3 138:17

140:18 161:3

clarifications

114:19

clarified 115:3

125:12

clarify 21:9 41:12

102:20 104:20

138:5 157:3

160:19

clarifying 77:12

clarity 10:11 43:13

94:4

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classed 49:15

classic 103:9

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classifying 7:7

clause 138:3

139:19

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190:21

clear 13:22 30:7,7

33:14 88:19 92:9

93:9 178:11

clearance 42:21

149:6

clearer 94:3

clearly 46:6,8

clients 10:10 78:7,8

118:4 138:8

166:16

climate 182:2

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close 198:5

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cluster 70:18
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cocktail 202:14

Cody 176:21

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Colehour 1:13

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59:13,14 65:3

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51:17 55:2

collaboration

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collaborative 55:7

76:3

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10:15

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colleagues 62:10

198:9

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colliding 93:11

colloquy 62:19

combination

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combined 181:3

combining 162:16

come 7:3 17:6,17

25:13 27:4 28:16

29:10 37:20 44:17

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84:15,16 93:20

103:11,16 108:5

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161:2 173:5

185:10 195:16

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139:2,9 165:10

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coming 29:12 40:8

152:6 153:12

160:11 165:19

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commencing

109:11

comment 5:16 8:5

16:1,19 30:17

39:18 43:4,5

45:11 46:4 59:9

70:11,22 71:9

80:14 81:22 85:7

117:11 118:7,11

129:19 138:13,21

140:15,17 141:4

141:15 163:9

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commentary

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161:1

commented 125:9

commenter 7:21

commenters 22:9

72:13 124:16,18

124:19 128:9

comments 2:3,9 5:9

5:15,18,20 6:1,7

9:17 11:16,16

15:20 17:11 39:2

42:17 46:19 65:2

66:21 67:5 70:19

71:13,19 73:9

79:3 82:6,9,10,17

83:9,14 84:15,16

84:22 93:6 97:18

98:6,20 118:3,6,8

118:9 122:16,21

125:1,18 128:7,10

129:22 131:2

132:3,7,9,22

135:16 136:21

138:6 150:13

151:21 153:20

155:10 162:13

165:4 167:4 173:6

173:17 175:10

178:4 185:8,11

190:8 192:17

195:5 199:9

205:15 206:19

commercial 132:15

132:17

commercial-scale

133:6

commercially

23:19 132:22

135:13

Commission

100:13

commissioned

116:18 131:18

commissioning

64:15

commitment

183:11 191:22

202:15

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committee 1:19 9:5

11:12 13:17 16:16

30:2 33:21 42:8

51:18 56:21 77:10

85:15 91:17 93:18

97:4 118:2 125:18

163:22 164:10

166:11 167:2

168:12 171:2,7,11

173:6 176:15

203:9 204:17

205:5 206:5,10,14

206:16 207:21,22

208:1,2,21 209:1

committee's 66:19

150:6 154:14

committees 171:10

172:3 205:18

208:3,12

common 166:20

199:11 200:7,12

200:12

commonalities

200:17

communities

180:10

community 20:13

49:5,7 61:6,6 64:4

64:18 67:1,21

76:10,10 98:17

174:12 175:7

177:21 185:1

191:22

companies 57:19

181:13

company 124:17

134:11 186:17

compassion 137:10

compatibility 86:5

87:7 90:3,4,7,8,10

104:8,12 105:7

119:3 124:14

compatible 90:15

128:22

compelling 77:15

129:17

compete 102:1

competition 99:15

149:18

compiled 42:4 54:7

complaints 145:10

complete 45:13

60:12 61:11

completed 129:12

170:16,17

completely 139:4,6

completes 23:22

complex 53:16

compliance 99:10

204:12 206:4,13

206:15 207:17

complicate 18:22

complicated 13:12

20:22 27:16 48:10

56:15

complies 98:1

component 16:11

16:22 27:17

compost 67:7,11,12

67:17 68:13,21

73:6,17,20 74:4,6

74:7 78:16

composts 73:11

compounds 74:15

comprehensive 7:6

57:9

concept 44:9 45:9

54:16 55:1 69:11

154:17

concepts 44:18

conceptually 60:1

concern 6:12,19

8:1 10:8 48:15,20

49:5,15 54:20

57:5 69:4,5 81:8

concerned 71:22

72:5 164:10

concerns 11:20

17:5 34:22 87:4

119:6

concise 115:17

concluded 30:22

80:18

concludes 40:12

46:22 73:2 129:21

135:18 162:9

167:7

concretely 56:6

concur 19:14 102:9

178:7

condition 95:15

conditions 95:21

97:7,11

conducted 124:6

conference 169:13

191:15

conferring 41:9

confidence 146:14

confidences 202:13

conflict 6:21

confluence 130:17

confused 91:6

207:8

confusing 96:16

confusion 96:13
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Congress 155:21

181:1

congruity 29:3

conjunction 10:1

connection 183:9

cons 39:13

consent 124:8

155:22

consented 203:9

consequences

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conservation

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consider 5:17 10:6

10:22 15:9 25:16

85:10 90:12

102:17 119:8

130:11 199:4

considerate 182:18

consideration 22:4

43:7 70:16 85:19

120:22

considerations

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considered 13:7,19

14:6,7 49:2 67:22

137:15,18 138:20

149:9 186:22

considering 87:13

consistency 104:12

consistent 81:17

129:5

consists 47:21

conspiracy 179:12

179:13

consternation 37:9

consultation 169:1

consulting 71:20

consumers 7:19

68:5 181:3 188:7

contain 68:19

contaminant 70:17

77:7

contaminants 68:3

68:12,21 69:4

71:22 72:12 73:11

74:14 76:17 77:8

78:16

contamination

2:11 66:15,20

67:7 68:8,14 69:3

69:4,8,9 71:16

72:11,13 73:20

76:11,16,18 77:2

153:7

contemplating

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content 82:14

context 37:16

130:12 198:2

continuation

108:18

continue 6:10 7:10

38:12 58:19,19

66:7,9 85:13

96:10 139:12

157:4,7 158:3

183:22 184:3

185:5

continued 119:6

128:2

continuing 48:18

65:17 66:5 141:21

145:4

continuity 65:15

66:4

continuous 182:1

contribute 59:3

92:19

contributed 174:10

177:12 182:8

contributes 97:22

98:4

contribution 175:7

contributions

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control 8:8 116:17

117:10 121:2,4,20

122:2,6 125:8,11

193:15

controls 81:15

conventional 72:3

73:18 74:17

101:19 134:6,7

180:19

conversation 40:20

63:19 64:5 77:18

77:21 78:2,4

92:19 174:7

conversations 27:2

37:18 70:7 174:2

185:13,22 186:3

conviction 193:9

197:7

cool 176:9

cooperating 58:3

Cooperative 10:16

85:13

coopers 196:6

coordinate 203:13

copper 117:9

corduroy 4:19

core 181:17

corn 72:11

corn-steeped 174:3

Cornucopia 9:12

85:1

Corp 207:20

corporate 181:9,11

181:17

corporations

181:10

correct 89:3 119:18

162:19,20

Correction 125:3

correctly 20:3

cosmos 3:21 201:9

cotton 133:1,22

134:1,2,6,7,12,15

134:21

cottonseed 131:6

131:13

Council 111:22

Counsel 1:22 23:6

counting 83:4

countries 117:7

134:19

country 27:12

117:9 134:1

couple 52:14 77:15

163:21 174:21

185:14 202:4

course 72:21 117:8

145:10 171:8

194:21

covered 136:16

cows 187:1

craft 202:3

create 20:18 180:5

190:1

created 37:16

180:17

creates 63:15 182:1

creating 28:5 37:1

188:9

criteria 22:6 23:20

24:1 53:9,20

80:12 86:4 87:3,7

90:4,7,12 98:1

104:5,7,13 119:1

124:13 129:3

criterion 103:1

124:15

critical 16:22 180:1

criticized 176:10

crop 10:16 47:3,5,7

71:1,20 81:2,6

82:2 83:16 86:18

102:6 106:16,17

108:18 114:1,2

116:4 123:14,18

125:16 130:10

135:18 208:15,16

Cropp 85:13

crops 2:7 49:17

56:21 66:18 69:13

71:7 72:7 76:20

76:21 77:8 93:18

94:17,17 95:3

97:4 101:21 152:3

154:12 155:1

156:11 162:5,16

207:20 208:2

crumb 37:4 38:3

159:20

CS 2:7 124:10

cultural 81:14

180:3 192:16

culture 13:5

cumbersome 168:6

Curitiba 111:11

current 37:11

45:21 70:6 131:9

186:5 205:8

currently 23:8

24:21 35:9 40:2

43:2 49:13 52:7

52:13 103:22

115:21 127:11

159:12

curve 65:22

customarily 118:20

CVB 12:8,10,21

13:3

cycles 193:21

D

D 2:1

D.C 195:16,18

D.H 3:14 202:2

dairy 177:3

damage 188:1

damages 68:16

dance 3:18 201:7

Daniels 109:3,8

dark 30:14 144:22

darkest 195:10

data 60:14

date 11:13 14:12

20:6 38:5 122:14

139:16

day 4:13 77:17 78:9

95:13 137:8 177:2

183:17 186:21

187:16 191:6

197:14,16

days 77:15 103:8

168:13 169:6

185:14 187:11

deadline 139:16

deal 6:13,22 31:21

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Mayor 111:11,20

Mayor's 111:20

McEVOY 1:22

20:22 41:6 44:11

73:10 78:14 88:2

100:1 108:21

109:2 139:1

148:20 149:19

151:4 154:16

155:2,5,17 156:2

156:15 158:17

167:11 169:18

173:19 177:9

184:12 189:6

209:17

mean 12:1 13:13

29:16 32:16 33:1

34:17 52:1 75:21

91:5 93:3 106:19

138:6,6 156:1

165:18 172:15,21

183:19 186:14

187:18 188:15

200:8

meaning 102:19

190:2

means 6:21 12:14

49:1 90:14 113:8

meant 3:9 91:15

mechanical 132:14

132:20 133:3

mechanisms 139:5

139:10

meet 22:6 163:22

meeting 1:3 29:22

34:12 37:5 38:16

39:3,21 40:3,22

46:8 47:18 51:15

53:2 55:15,19

56:3 60:20 69:15

69:16 70:2 71:10

91:21 109:13

110:2 131:22

132:2 153:4,18

154:2 160:5

161:15 165:7

167:12 170:11,12

172:11 188:17

189:1 192:22

199:17,21 209:10

209:12,16,17

meetings 69:14

82:5 109:11,19,21

128:1 140:21

173:21 184:13

188:18

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173:16 178:14

204:12,14 206:6,7

206:8,9,15 207:15

207:16,19,20,22

208:13,15,16,17

208:19,20,21

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29:6 37:10,12,21

38:12 44:21 47:21

66:6 81:2,11

108:22 132:11

150:15 167:13,13

168:19 169:7

170:2 171:8,8,15

172:1,16 173:13

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174:18 177:11

183:1,5 186:5

196:4 203:5 205:8

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mentees 171:17,18

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160:4 170:4

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mentors 171:6,7,9

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messages 7:9

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176:18

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150:13 153:20

155:10 175:10

178:4 185:8 190:8

205:15 206:19

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166:19 170:4

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20:21 35:1 36:17

41:5,16 45:18

46:1 73:9 75:3

77:21 78:13 79:3

91:20 99:16 109:1

138:17 139:19

150:2,22 153:22

155:9 158:15

173:14 178:6

185:9 190:11

209:15

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134:14 170:9

201:19,20 204:20

minds 140:5

mine 182:7

mined 67:7

minerals 67:8

minimal 49:15

minor 19:22 158:1

minority 86:15,17

86:17 87:6 90:3,6

92:6,8 96:13,15

102:10 104:11,21

105:3,4,19 106:7

106:9,14 114:7

124:4

minute 6:18 108:4

missed 173:22

misspellings 72:18

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22:12 24:3 49:13

52:9 74:12,22

78:11 79:19 80:5

86:4,8 87:12

90:13 91:3,11

96:9 98:9 104:17

107:1 109:4 110:1

112:10,10 115:21

116:8,22 118:22

121:11 122:10,13

124:13 127:12,16

128:3 131:10,15

151:6,14 173:20

203:22 204:6

205:20 206:12

207:10,14 208:9

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193:22

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49:11 59:1 140:4

166:16

necessary 8:3 9:14

70:1 83:16 108:2

164:12

necessitate 139:20

need 7:14 10:10

14:22 15:4 19:20

21:11 29:9 32:4

32:21 38:19 64:19

67:22 75:19,20

79:8,15 81:19

83:18 89:4 94:2

98:3 103:9 115:2

115:8 133:2

135:21 136:14

140:21 141:22

160:12 163:13

169:4 176:1 182:5

182:21 183:4,17

191:13 204:21

needed 7:7 28:14

85:2 95:5 97:15

114:20 123:12

125:13 128:5

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43:14 81:10 119:8

124:3 133:12

139:14 160:13

165:16 176:16

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103:21

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negligible 125:2

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network 184:17

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14:16 15:10 17:18

18:5 43:22 53:7,8

65:7 89:4 93:21

108:22 116:17

118:12 121:13

128:6 131:17

137:14 139:9

152:8,9,17,18,19

154:9 163:20

165:10 167:13,15

169:7 170:2 171:7

171:15 177:2

182:21 188:9

190:6

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newly 116:20

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58:22 78:17 191:5

nicest 202:3

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19:12 26:13,15

27:18 29:17 33:5

58:11 65:14 75:16

89:20 90:18 92:16

96:12 98:7 104:18

135:3 136:22

137:5 141:13

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23:5,13,15 24:2

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28:13 29:4,21

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officers 144:3,6

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operating 50:11

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106:14 123:17

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opinions 198:19

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64:3,4 95:20

117:19 123:20

158:14 199:16

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optimistic 198:6,7

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110:15 111:4

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organisms 128:20

organization 65:19

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originally 122:8

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outcome 46:16

outgoing 2:21

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105:8

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78:5,22 138:13

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120:13 127:3

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138:14,22 148:22

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116:2 119:7,13

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person 28:6 65:7

65:18 88:13

119:18 142:3

147:22 186:15

personal 182:4,5

personalities 179:4

personally 43:12

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persons 28:13

perspective 16:20

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philosophy 111:16

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plaque 203:6

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plate 15:20

play 188:9

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please 44:10 88:8

108:14 147:21

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pleasure 109:3,10

185:4 202:16

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plumb 151:3

podium 138:7

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poems 3:11 193:2

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21:7 24:10 29:5

32:19 38:11 39:11

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preamble 21:18

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prerequisites

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present 1:10 2:3,8

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various 29:10

184:16

vast 33:2,2 128:8

vector 26:20

vegetables 187:3

vehicle 46:2,16

venue 198:1

verbal 2:6,10 36:22

47:8

verifiable 190:1

verify 130:21

VerMint 137:22

VerMints 136:3

142:17 165:12

Vermont 10:14

73:5

vet 31:15

viability 132:14

viable 66:5 96:20

132:22 133:6

135:13

vice 1:11 3:4,8

35:20 75:2,7,15

76:12 77:3,11

78:13 79:2 87:22

99:21 107:17

120:10 126:20

131:20 133:19

142:15 145:14

146:1,2,8 168:4,9

190:9 204:15

205:4 206:2,3,11

207:14,18,21

209:1

view 29:5 112:7

205:7 209:3

Vitamint 165:4

voice 180:16 181:9

voices 46:4

voluntarily 63:10

voluntary 53:6

volunteer 29:6

vote 35:19 86:9,16

86:16,19 90:13,15

91:15 92:4,7 96:7

96:22 97:16

103:17,20 106:2,6

107:2 119:9,17

123:20 140:3,5

146:13

voted 92:22 94:12

96:14 106:11

124:2

votes 36:13 94:14

96:14 105:19

107:18 108:1

120:12 127:1

142:20 143:6

148:3 205:2

voting 86:20 91:18

92:10 103:20

107:10 137:1

W

wailing 39:13

wait 64:7

walk 185:19

WALKER 1:18

36:5 107:8 120:2

126:12 142:7

145:2,19 147:15

161:7,11 162:20

203:1 204:2,5

205:16 206:20

208:5

walrus 202:9

want 21:6 33:5

35:18 40:6,13,18

41:2 44:18 45:19

58:19 79:4 82:13

85:21 86:10,14

88:12 89:13,16

91:13 95:14,14

102:20 106:2

113:10 130:1

136:22 148:18

150:5,12 156:13

165:2 167:9

172:20 178:10

181:4 182:15,18

183:21 187:6,14

188:15 190:14

192:1,10 196:11

203:15 209:5

wanted 21:1 24:5

39:9,22 55:16

62:17,18 89:12

92:8,9 139:3

160:19 169:15

wanting 99:14

118:1

wants 11:3 15:19

25:5 92:19 133:14

157:21

War 193:18

warrant 138:10

Washington 73:14

74:2 99:16 195:15

wasn't 5:6 60:6

106:10 137:19

165:7 174:18
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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water 68:7 84:4

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61:11,12,21 62:11

69:20 76:9 82:3

91:21,22 92:11,13

93:1,12 94:3

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110:5,6,11,18

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155:11 161:19

168:3 170:14

175:13 179:19

188:2 191:2

193:13 198:3

ways 110:5 173:12

178:20

we'll 29:16 41:9

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we're 19:10 24:15

24:17 25:20 37:1

45:4 50:22 51:21

56:9,17 57:7 60:3

65:1 66:1 67:19

75:10 79:5 80:10

89:22 92:15 94:5

94:8 95:9 96:18

97:6,10 101:13

104:21 106:12

113:1 114:15

115:13 125:17

127:6 149:19

162:15 166:8,17

167:8 168:8

173:12 177:1

187:17 192:5

197:4 203:16

we've 5:10,12

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51:2 54:7,21,22

55:1 57:22 64:22

67:5 72:22 92:13

94:20 95:1 96:2

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124:5 125:20

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149:13 151:12

158:2 164:16

174:2 177:13

178:12 188:11

195:10 199:15

205:1

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weeds 18:20 197:22

week 170:13

weekend 191:16

weeks 163:21

weigh 39:10 43:14

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weighed 71:3

welcome 47:7

109:6

welcoming 184:7

welfare 25:22

160:11 174:19

175:2,6,19 176:9

204:18

wending 152:10

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174:16,17 175:5

203:21

Wendy's 187:1

went 11:18 30:8

37:5 39:14 52:4

69:1 80:12 105:14

108:11 143:14

209:21

weren't 199:2

western 84:10,18

95:18

wheat 72:11

wheels 29:17

whoa 27:7

whoops 47:20

widely 38:21

widening 193:4

wider 6:14

widespread 10:8

wife 183:13

wild 42:6

winner 148:5

Wisconsin 195:12

wise 30:13

wish 14:17 32:7

200:21 205:20

207:10 208:9

withdraw 42:13

89:11

wonder 18:13

wondered 76:15

wonderful 26:17

108:17 173:11,11

174:9 175:14

wondering 16:11

58:15,17

Woodland 195:12

word 32:13 113:7

149:10 161:18

166:12,21 167:1

194:19 208:6,7

worded 35:3

words 3:5,13 98:18

178:6 202:13

203:7,15 205:6,17

work 6:10 9:5,15

10:2,14,17 11:3

11:12,13 12:2,6

12:21 15:11 19:9

20:3 24:9,12 26:2

26:4,9,11 27:22

29:2,14 30:21

37:13,16 40:4,11

41:10 44:12,13,18

44:22 45:15 52:19

55:5,21 58:15

76:9 77:21 78:1

80:18 111:16

130:21,22 137:16

139:15 143:7

145:8 148:12,15

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149:9,15,21 150:6

150:7,17,18 151:2

151:5 157:5,7

158:3,5,21 159:6

159:12 163:10,13

164:1 166:11

167:17 168:12

169:3 170:10,20

176:6 181:4 182:9

182:15,19 183:22

185:5 186:17,21

187:15,21 189:3,9

189:14 190:2,4

191:10 192:2,4,5

200:16,16 209:6

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worked 13:17

26:18 163:15

171:16

worker 71:4

182:21,22

working 7:10 8:22

8:22 11:20 12:4

13:19,22 15:3,10

16:13,22 17:4,12

17:14 18:1,2,12

26:16 28:7,18

37:12 42:20 47:10

47:19,21 51:2,14

52:11 54:3,15

55:11 58:5,16,20

58:22 60:11,16

61:9,22 64:1

65:19 66:19 74:12

77:22 129:21

149:1,11,22 157:1

159:18 162:6

164:14 166:3

168:8 170:7

175:21 177:1

178:22 184:9

187:18 190:5

208:19

workload 158:1

Workplans 2:19

works 98:15

137:14 179:1

world 33:17 137:21

189:13 193:3,7,18

204:9 205:22

207:12 208:11

worms 128:20

129:18

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55:10

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174:19

Wow 173:22

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159:20

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147:21 200:13,14

writers 198:6

writing 45:5

155:14 180:18

193:1 196:22

written 2:3,9 5:14

7:21 39:8 71:12

84:1,16 96:3

138:13 140:14

141:3 155:12,14

155:15 168:3

171:6 193:17

202:1

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wrote 70:21

WSDA 189:11

X

Y

y'all 66:17 189:3

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65:4 73:10 75:5

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148:20 149:16

150:19 151:4
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year 7:10 12:4

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years 5:8,13 20:9

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133:21 173:21

174:21 175:12,16

184:13 186:12

188:14,22 190:13

192:8,19 194:3

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199:10,16

Yeats 193:16

Yep 35:19

yesterday 62:20

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young 112:22

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120 2:14 6:6

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14 206:5 207:18

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140 1:8

144 2:18

148 2:19

15 54:10 70:20

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150 5:14

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167 2:20

16th 87:1 102:9

17 128:12

173 2:21

19 89:1

2

2 50:8 80:4

2:27 209:21

20 54:11 180:22

181:3,5 188:14

190:13

200 196:5

2002 131:16

2003 121:13 122:7

127:17 131:17

2004 50:15 127:20

2005 116:9

2006 116:11 122:8

127:16 131:15

2007 122:10

2008 80:6

2009 21:5,8,13 24:8

24:11

2010 21:3 30:15

51:3,11 64:6 65:6

80:6,8 98:9,12,13

116:8 121:11

122:14 127:20

204:14,19 205:4

206:5,6,14 207:20

207:21,22 208:14

208:17,20,22

2011 174:20 204:16

206:11 208:1

2012 51:11 60:20

127:20 204:19

206:8,9

2013 53:1 87:1

102:9 204:15,19

206:12 207:18

208:15,16,19,21

2013-14 207:13,15

207:19 208:13

2014 1:5 80:8

116:11,18 121:15

122:7 128:4

204:12,14 206:2,3

207:16

2015 2:12 70:2 79:6

109:5 150:9

151:19 156:5

2016 2:14 127:7

157:15 160:20

2017 50:2,3 152:6

153:9 156:5

157:18 159:11

160:22

2018 50:5

205.105(e) 22:16

205.600(a) 22:20

23:2,11,15

205.601 79:20

120:22 127:12

131:10

205.601(a)(8)

115:22

205.603 21:11

205.603(a)(4) 22:22

23:3,9

205.606(x) 136:14

209 2:22

24 82:17

24-7 182:11 183:3

24th 169:9,9

25(b) 63:13

26 89:1

3

3 49:18 50:8

3's 50:4

3-decene-2-1

152:20

30 1:5 168:13 169:5

34 118:4

35 141:11

393 89:1

4

4 2:2 49:16 50:20

51:12

4's 50:2

40 114:4

400 195:22

42 159:10

43 159:10

47 2:7,10 128:7

48 54:8

4th 1:8

5

50 132:3 193:18

58 153:10

5th 21:7

6

60 132:3

60,000 109:15

601(e) 121:19

601(i) 122:1

6158(m) 87:8

6158(m)(7) 86:5

104:7 119:2

124:14

650 54:1

66 2:12

7

7 119:2 124:13

7.5 96:1

7.8 96:1

7647 131:12

7782-99-2 80:1

79 2:13

7th 128:4

8

8.2 95:22

8.3 95:22

8:34 3:2

8:35 1:8

89 70:21

9
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

239

National Organic Standards Board

USDA

10-30-14

Louisville, KY